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Aristander
13-10-10, 18:16
Genetic analysis of the presumptive blood from Louis XVI, king of France
http://www.fsigenetics.com/article/PIIS1872497310001602/


A text on a pyrographically decorated gourd dated to 1793 explains that it contains a handkerchief dipped with the blood of Louis XVI, king of France, after his execution. Biochemical analyses confirmed that the material contained within the gourd was blood. The mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) hypervariable region 1 (HVR1) and 2 (HVR2), the Y-chromosome STR profile, some autosomal STR markers and a SNP in HERC2 gene associated to blue eyes, were retrieved, and some results independently replicated in two different laboratories. The uncommon mtDNA sequence retrieved can be attributed to a N1b haplotype, while the novel Y-chromosome haplotype belongs to haplogroup G2a. The HERC2 gene showed that the subject analyzed was a heterozygote, which is compatible with a blue-eyed person, as king Louis XVI was. To confirm the identity of the subject, an analysis of the dried heart of his son, Louis XVII, could be undertaken.


I wasn't sure where to post this, but I guessed that the best place might be here in general genetics instead of History. If Maciamo of one of the other Administrators feels it should be someplace else please move it.
Thanks,
Aristander

Maciamo
14-10-10, 08:22
Thanks Aristander, that's very interesting ! So the Bourbon dynasty would have been G2a3, and indeed all the Kings of France, as the Bourbon ultimately descend in direct paternal line from Robert the Strong and Hugh Capet.

As for the N1b mitochonrial line, Louis XVI's matrilineal ancestors were :

-Princess Maria Josepha of Saxony
--Maria Josepha of Austria, Queen consort of Poland
---Wilhelmine Amalia of Brunswick-Lüneburg, Holy Roman Empress
----Princess Benedicta Henrietta of the Palatinate
-----Anne Gonzaga, Countess Palatine of Simmern
------Catherine de Lorraine, Duchess of Mantua and Montferrat
-------Henriette of Savoy, Marquise de Villars
--------Jeanne Françoise de Foix, Vicomtesse de Castillon
---------Françoise de Prez de Monpezat

So ultimately (in the 15th century, as I couldn't go farther) it seems that this N1a lineage was of southern French origin.

All the matrilineal descendants of these women shared the same mtDNA as Louis XVI.

One of Maria Josepha of Austria's grandchild via one of her daughter is King Charles IV of Spain. Among her great-grand-children carrying her mtDNA, we find Francis II, Holy Roman Emperor and Ferdinand III, Grand Duke of Tuscany.

Wilhelmine Amalia of Brunswick-Lüneburg's grandhchildren include King Frederick Augustus I of Saxony and King Anthony of Saxony.


I noticed that many of the N1b women in this lineage died childless. Perhaps N1b has an negative influence on female fertility, which would explain why the lineage is fairly rare.

iapodos
14-10-10, 12:26
If these results become a valid, does it means that we can presume that Bourbons, Capetians and Robertians are of Alanic origin.

From Eupedia

"Alanic G2a1
The only ethnic group that has a majority of haplogroup G nowadays are the Ossetians in the Caucasus, in the modern Russian Republic of North Ossetia-Alania. They are thought to descend directly from the Alans, a Central Asian tribe related to the ancient Samartians. The medieval Kingdom of Alania was located in the northern Caucasus, in present-day Georgia and Ossetia.


G2a has been observed at a slightly higher frequencies in Picardy and Flanders than in surrounding regions. It has been hypothetised that G2a was brought to northern France and Belgium by the Alans, who traversed all continental Europe during the barbarian invasions in the 5th century and founded a short-lived kingdom in northern France.

Nonetheless, if there is Alanic G in Europe it must certainly belong to other subclades than those from the Neolithic or Bronze Age period (namely G2a3). G2a1 being the most common variety in the Caucasus nowadays, the fairly recent Alanic migration (from a genetic point of view) could have carried that particular subclade. In fact, G2a1 has been found all along the Alanic migration route (Hungary, France, Spain), as well as in Britain (Samartian element ?), but hardly anywhere else."

Dukes of Hesbaye were the earliest known predecessors of Bourbon dinasty (Robertians and Capetians). Was it possible that some of Alanic landlords in the region become founder of dinasty?

Migration of Alans to Europe in Middle Ages.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg

Aristander
14-10-10, 18:14
As far as I can trace back the line of Louis XVI using online resources is to Charibert de Haspengau (c.575-636) It would interesting to know what the Y DNA of King Juan Carlos is and see if the lines match.
If the line is of Alanic origin it would just verify how mobile and fertile our forebearers were in their migrations around the Earth. To think that the descendants of a tribe of Eastern Iranian barbarians forced into Europe by the Huns, would end up as royalty in Europe! Amazing!

iapodos
14-10-10, 20:07
As far as I can trace back the line of Louis XVI using online resources is to Charibert de Haspengau (c.575-636)

Haspengau is only a Dutch form for Hasbaye. It is the historical region in southeastern part of Flanders, where Bourbons (Capetians and Robertians) came from and according to Eupedia is one of peak places of G2a group in Europe. If it is true that the Bourbons are indeed G2a then it couldn't be just coincidence.

willy
15-10-10, 02:22
Haspengau is only a Dutch form for Hasbaye. It is the historical region in southeastern part of Flanders, where Bourbons (Capetians and Robertians) came from and according to Eupedia is one of peak places of G2a group in Europe. If it is true that the Bourbons are indeed G2a then it couldn't be just coincidence.

Yes correct anyway in Flanders ( The Frankish Homeland) this not the "Alanic" G2a1 who is found but the G2a3b1 who is NOT a neolithic haplogroup as R1b1b2 but a 4500 years old and a true Indo European haplogroup ...

willy
15-10-10, 02:25
As far as I can trace back the line of Louis XVI using online resources is to Charibert de Haspengau (c.575-636) It would interesting to know what the Y DNA of King Juan Carlos is and see if the lines match.
If the line is of Alanic origin it would just verify how mobile and fertile our forebearers were in their migrations around the Earth. To think that the descendants of a tribe of Eastern Iranian barbarians forced into Europe by the Huns, would end up as royalty in Europe! Amazing!
Juan Carlos is a suspicious " Bourbon" a "Bourbon" who was made for circumstances ... He is probably not from the same blood line

Archaeogenetics
15-10-10, 02:41
This is a very long-standing myth because a high percentage of Ossetians are G2a1a-P18. In fact these do not match other places where Alans lived, and G2a1a is apparently absent from the "Ossetic" Jasz region of Hungary. 19th century travelers in the Caucasus in fact reported that it was well-known that the Ossetian nobility of Digora were not in fact of Ossetian origin, but what they described as "Tatar".
High percentages of G2a are also found among the various Northwest Caucasian peoples, but these are almost all in on single clade of G2a3b1a1-U1.
For some reason everyone seems to have ignored the very high percentages of G2a among the "Central Israel Palestinians" in HGDP, 10/17. I would say that this in fact is quite unrepresentative of the general Palestinian population. There are certain Palestinian clans that are prominent in "Central Israel" but are not found elsewhere.
It does turn out as was pointed out above that there are a "substantial" number of G2a's in the Lower Rhine region where the Robertians / Capetians were said to have originated. However, almost zero of these belong to any of the Caucasian G2a-P15 clades. (In fact, no one at all in the region matches the Caucasian clusters.)
The important thing here is to test living Bourbons today to make sure that they in fact match.
As I've mentioned previously, aside from the Oldenbergs, Rurikids, and Gedeminids, why hasn't anyone tested the other important European noble families like the Hapsburgs, Welfs, etc.? What about the Napoleon lineage?

Maciamo
15-10-10, 09:12
Most of the G2a in Europe is of Neolithic or Bronze-age origin. It's pointless arguing about the origin of the Bourbon line here as we do not know the subclade of G2a.

Taranis
15-10-10, 09:17
Most of the G2a in Europe is of Neolithic or Bronze-age origin. It's pointless arguing about the origin of the Bourbon line here as we do not know the subclade of G2a.

I have wondered, given it's peculiar distribution pattern, if Haplogroup G arrived in Europe alongside of R1b.

iapodos
15-10-10, 10:07
From eupedia:

"Nonetheless, if there is Alanic G in Europe it must certainly belong to other subclades than those from the Neolithic or Bronze Age period (namely G2a3). G2a1 being the most common variety in the Caucasus nowadays, the fairly recent Alanic migration (from a genetic point of view) could have carried that particular subclade. In fact, G2a1 has been found all along the Alanic migration route (Hungary, France, Spain), as well as in Britain (Samartian element ?), but hardly anywhere else."

Is there any proof of presence of G2a1 along the Alanic migration route?
I took this claim from eupedia as truth, and that's why I thought that there is much more Alanic G2a1 haplotypes in Europe, specifically in Belgium. But when I saw some projects on FTDNA, it is obvious that most of haplogroup G in Belgium is G2a3.

Maciamo
15-10-10, 18:07
From eupedia:
"Nonetheless, if there is Alanic G in Europe it must certainly belong to other subclades than those from the Neolithic or Bronze Age period (namely G2a3). G2a1 being the most common variety in the Caucasus nowadays, the fairly recent Alanic migration (from a genetic point of view) could have carried that particular subclade. In fact, G2a1 has been found all along the Alanic migration route (Hungary, France, Spain), as well as in Britain (Samartian element ?), but hardly anywhere else."
Is there any proof of presence of G2a1 along the Alanic migration route?
I took this claim from eupedia as truth, and that's why I thought that there is much more Alanic G2a1 haplotypes in Europe, specifically in Belgium. But when I saw some projects on FTDNA, it is obvious that most of haplogroup G in Belgium is G2a3.

Most of the hg G in Belgium, France and the rest of Western Europe is indeed G2a3. The Alans were few in number and probably have had a minimal impact on the Y-DNA lineages in Western Europe. Nevertheless there are a few Western European G2a1 out there, and it's hard to find another reasonable explanation for their presence than a small band of invaders from the Caucasus region.

willy
15-10-10, 19:10
Most of the hg G in Belgium, France and the rest of Western Europe is indeed G2a3. The Alans were few in number and probably have had a minimal impact on the Y-DNA lineages in Western Europe. Nevertheless there are a few Western European G2a1 out there, and it's hard to find another reasonable explanation for their presence than a small band of invaders from the Caucasus region.

Sorry dear sir but not G2a3 but G2a3b1a . If we could believe this story of the gourd Luis XVI is definitely G2a3b1a . Just my little opinion : it seems that G2a3b1a was an elite among the Franks ...

MPA
15-10-10, 19:14
In the Northwest of the Caucasus Mountains there is The Adyghe tribe and it is one of the tribes that live in the Caucasus mountains .
and in the Mountains bordering italy/Austria i noticed that there is a region named "Region Trentino Alto Adige" .

could the two regions ( in the Caucasus and Austria/ italy area have some connection in their origins , the two areas:

[ NORTH OF ITALY AND SOUTH OF AUSTRIA]
Region Trentino Alto Adige

Adyghea Republic northwest of the Caucasus
I noticed that Austria ,the Caucasus mountains have a Y-dna Haplogroup G .

Thanks
Len

Taranis
15-10-10, 19:22
In the Northwest of the Caucasus Mountains there is The Adyghe tribe and it is one of the tribes that live in the Caucasus mountains .
and in the Mountains bordering italy/Austria i noticed that there is a region named "Region Trentino Alto Adige" .

could the two regions ( in the Caucasus and Austria/ italy area have some connection in their origins , the two areas:

[ NORTH OF ITALY AND SOUTH OF AUSTRIA]
Region Trentino Alto Adige

Adyghea Republic northwest of the Caucasus
I noticed that Austria ,the Caucasus mountains have a Y-dna Haplogroup G .

Thans
Len

I can assure you that Adygea and Trentino-Alto Adige are utterly unrelated in name. "Alto-Adige" in Italian means something like "Upper Adige (river)", which is also called the "Etsch" river in German. Prior to World War One, the territory was part of Austria and called South Tyrol (which the German-speaking minority in the area still calls it, actually). The fact that "Adygea" and "Alto-Adige" sound similar, and in both areas, Haplogroup G is common, is just a coincidence.

Eochaidh
16-10-10, 05:00
I can assure you that Adygea and Trentino-Alto Adige are utterly unrelated in name.This is what is so fascinating, and often, so frustrating when history, tradition, linguistics and now DNA are combined. What seems such a perfect interpretation, is so often, just a coincidence.

Maciamo
16-10-10, 14:16
Sorry dear sir but not G2a3 but G2a3b1a . If we could believe this story of the gourd Luis XVI is definitely G2a3b1a . Just my little opinion : it seems that G2a3b1a was an elite among the Franks ...

Yes, more specifically most Europeans G2a3 are G2a3b1a, and Louis XVI's presumed STR markers also appears to be G2a3b1a.

MPA
16-10-10, 15:49
Ted Kandell Wrote On rootswweb:
Ted Kandell/
Subject :[Y-DNA-HAPLOGROUP-G] The spread of G2a3-L30 into Europe andelsewhere
Date: Wed, 9 Sep 2009
"An even higher percentage of certain Adyghe (often called Circassians) are in an entirely different clade of G2a3b1-P393, particularly the Shapsug tribe, which in one study seem to be 81% G2a3b1. Again, these men share an common ancestor in the Middle Ages. I would think that these Shapsugs represent a single lineage, one of the several distinct social classes found among the Adyghe tribes."

Taranis
16-10-10, 15:55
Well, the Adyghe speak a Turkic language, and clearly, that means it's obviously unlikely to have been spoken there before approximateky the 10th century. How this relates with Haplogroup G, I'm not sure, but it would seem plausible that it's some kind of founding effect.

MPA
16-10-10, 16:17
The Adyghe language do not belong to the Turkish language and according to wikipedia :
Adyghe language Belong to the Northwest Caucasian languages, also called Abkhazo-Adyghean, or sometimes Pontic .

Taranis
16-10-10, 16:23
The Adyghe language do not belong to the Turkish language and according to wikipedia :
Adyghe language Belong to the Northwest Caucasian languages, also called Abkhazo-Adyghean, or sometimes Pontic .

Damn, my mistake. Sorry, yeah. I must have mistaken the Adyghe for another ethnic group in the area. :ashamed2:

willy
16-10-10, 21:08
Damn, my mistake. Sorry, yeah. I must have mistaken the Adyghe for another ethnic group in the area. :ashamed2:

Bullshit men ! G2a3b1 came in Europe during the bronze age ( 4500 years old) and the Indo european expansion this haplogroup was surely an elite among what we call the " germanic" tribes let fall these tribes of caucasus ! G2a3b1 is found also in India in the Indo Aryans ... G2a3b1 is the only true Indo European haplogroup

willy
16-10-10, 21:09
G2a3b1 belongs exclusively to the upper caste in India

Taranis
16-10-10, 21:12
Bullshit men ! G2a3b1 came in Europe during the bronze age ( 4500 years old) and the Indo european expansion this haplogroup was surely an elite among what we call the " germanic" tribes let fall these tribes of caucasus ! G2a3b1 is found also in India in the Indo Aryans ... G2a3b1 is the only true Indo European haplogroup

Err, I was talking exclusively about the classification of the Adyghe language. :startled:

willy
17-10-10, 13:35
OK sorry so the subject is well Genetic analysis of the presumptive blood from Louis XVI, king of France ? Adyghe language is not a Turkish language of course thats right ! excuse me ...
About the King Luis XVI he belongs to G2a3b1 (Germanic Indo European haplogroup)

MPA
17-10-10, 17:04
The G2a3b1 is not of indian origine .

According to wikipedia:

Haplogroup G2a3b1 (y-dna) in wikipedia :
"This haplogroup represents the majority of haplogroup G men in most areas of Europe west of Russia and the Black Sea. To the east, G2a3b1-except in the northwestern Caucasus Mountains area-is just a large or small minority among G persons in such locales as Turkey the Middle east, Iran the southern Caucasus area,China and India."

G2a3b1 in Wikipedia:

"Relation to High Mountain Areas?
Undocumented descriptions of the distribution of the more general G2a category in Europe (which actually would be dominated by G2a3b1) have spoken of unusual concentrations of G2a in mountainous area of Europe,"

G2a3b1 in wikipedia:

Haplogroup G2a3b1Possible time of originperhaps 5,000 years BP Possible place of origin perhaps Iran or Caucasus Mtns. or Middle eastAncestorHaplogroup G2a3b (L141)DescendantsG2a3b1, G2a3b1a, G2a3b1b, G2a3b1cDefining mutationsP303 or S135 (G2a3b1), L140 (G2a3b1a), U1 (G2a3b1a1), L13/S130 (G2a3b1a1a) L43/S147 (G2a3b1a2), L42/S146 (G2a3b1a2a), rs34136765=T+ (G2a3b1a2a1),L297 (G2a3b1a2a2), L139 (G2a3b1a3),rs2538860=A+ (G2a3b1a4)

Melusine
18-10-10, 00:48
Hi to all,

My brother (I'm female) tested his y-dna and via our father and paternal line we are haplogroup G2a3b1a1. The extra 1 at the end indicates that my paternal line was "downstream" (next downward in sequence) from G2a3b1a. It has been estimated that we seperated from G2a3b1a approximately 2,500 years ago (by geneticists). There is much conflict as to the origins of haplogroup, but is has been presumed to be of Middle Eastern origin.

Thank you Willy Knight for you "keen" input. You may very well now see why I call myself Melusine (the name is attached to my paternal line).

I've done my genealogy and my paternal lines does go to the Capetians via female marriages. IF this y-dna test of the "bloody Hanky" proves to be correct, and that King Louis XVI was haplogroup G2a3b1a, then there is no doubt that paternally we also come from the paternal ancestors of Robert The Strong , a long time ago for sure. (not just via marriages with daughters.)

My ancestor was born in France many eons ago, but, I do have his pedigree until circa 1560. Our family were "nobles" who became Huguenots, and lost everything. I have good reason to "assume" that my ancestor was either of a "bastard line", or of a collateral paternal cousin line, however I have a "brickwall" here.

Melusine:heart:

willy
18-10-10, 03:11
The G2a3b1 is not of indian origine .

OK you are not very well informed anyway G2a3b1 if found at 20 % within the Kalsh people who are Indo Aryans take a look on that http://php.scripts.psu.edu/faculty/a/x/axr15/My_Paternal_Ancestry.htm
I never said G2a3b1 is from an Indian origin but G2a3b1 came from Caucasus to India as an Indo Aryan tribe and now some Indians are G2a3b1 found exclusively in the upper castes .

willy
18-10-10, 03:26
Hi to all,

My brother (I'm female) tested his y-dna and via our father and paternal line we are haplogroup G2a3b1a1. The extra 1 at the end indicates that my paternal line was "downstream" (next downward in sequence) from G2a3b1a. It has been estimated that we seperated from G2a3b1a approximately 2,500 years ago (by geneticists). There is much conflict as to the origins of haplogroup, but is has been presumed to be of Middle Eastern origin.

Thank you Willy Knight for you "keen" input. You may very well now see why I call myself Melusine (the name is attached to my paternal line).

I've done my genealogy and my paternal lines does go to the Capetians via female marriages. IF this y-dna test of the "bloody Hanky" proves to be correct, and that King Louis XVI was haplogroup G2a3b1a, then there is no doubt that paternally we also come from the paternal ancestors of Robert The Strong , a long time ago for sure. (not just via marriages with daughters.)

My ancestor was born in France many eons ago, but, I do have his pedigree until circa 1560. Our family were "nobles" who became Huguenots, and lost everything. I have good reason to "assume" that my ancestor was either of a "bastard line", or of a collateral paternal cousin line, however I have a "brickwall" here.

Melusine:heart:

You are welcome Melusine,

Yes Melusine I think G2a3b1 could be viewed as a real aristocratic marker among the French people and in first among the FRANKS themselves not this degenerated aristocrats who come from the "Bourgeoisie" (the ones with high heels and make-up) a clear sign of degeneracy ;-) According to Y-DNA testing, the majority of Frenchmen are R1b1b2 , which is also the group found predominantly in Ireland, Basque country, and Wales.This seems to suggest thatthe majority of Frenchmen are not descended from Franks (who would have a different Y-DNA marker), but from a pre-Celtic Stone Age people that is signified by R1b1b2 who is probably a neolithic or may be paleolithic haplogroup ...

Yorkie
18-10-10, 10:24
Some might be interested to hear this about G2a. About a year ago, I contacted Bryan Sykes regarding his references to 'pockets of old Wodans' [very old I haplogroup signatures] which he claims can be found in the 'Pictish' areas of Scotland and in parts of Wales in 'Blood of the Isles'. I wondered if these ancient I signals might possibly match any of Nordtvedt's clades such as I2a2b-Isles, I2a2a-Disles or I2b1a-English.

Sykes courteously replied, saying that he now thought the haplotypes were of the G2a type.

G2a is not really an interest of mine, but I wondered if some might find that information useful. If Sykes is correct [and he did not explain why he had changed his mind, and nor did he elaborate further] the age of these G2a signatures in Scotland and Wales must rule out any Germanic influence, at least in Britain. Neither of this British areas was subject to high levels of 'invader' genetic input.

Yorkie
18-10-10, 10:35
Bullshit men ! G2a3b1 came in Europe during the bronze age ( 4500 years old) and the Indo european expansion this haplogroup was surely an elite among what we call the " germanic" tribes let fall these tribes of caucasus ! G2a3b1 is found also in India in the Indo Aryans ... G2a3b1 is the only true Indo European haplogroup

Willy, with respect, that is quite a claim! :shocked: What about R1a1? Many population geneticists of unassailable reputation regard R1a1 as a 'Kurgan marker'. It too is found among the Brahmin elite of India, and most likely was carried there by our Aryan friends...

Taranis
18-10-10, 11:40
Willy, with respect, that is quite a claim! :shocked: What about R1a1? Many population geneticists of unassailable reputation regard R1a1 as a 'Kurgan marker'. It too is found among the Brahmin elite of India, and most likely was carried there by our Aryan friends...

I'd like to second that. R1a1 is, with all likelihood the Y-Haplogroup associated with the Indo-Europeans. It's been founded in the graves of the Corded Ware culture, the Andronovo culture, the (Proto-Scythian?) Tagar culture as well as graves that presumably belong to the early Tocharians. I think the case for R1a1 being associated with the original Indo-Europeans is very strong.

willy
18-10-10, 12:13
Willy, with respect, that is quite a claim! :shocked: What about R1a1? Many population geneticists of unassailable reputation regard R1a1 as a 'Kurgan marker'. It too is found among the Brahmin elite of India, and most likely was carried there by our Aryan friends...

It depends some R1a have nothing to do with the Indo europeans the Slavic R1a is not the same than the Indian R1a the situation is the same for R1b1 : a large old paleolithic haplogroup on the Eurasiatic continent and also on Afica (R1b1) anyway : some subclades of R1a are surely associated to the Indo Aryans or first Indo Europeans In India R1a is found in the upper caste and in the lowers I am sorry but G2a3b1 is exclusively found in the upper caste. The situation is not easy to understand I know ...

Yorkie
18-10-10, 13:37
It depends some R1a have nothing to do with the Indo europeans the Slavic R1a is not the same than the Indian R1a the situation is the same for R1b1 : a large old paleolithic haplogroup on the Eurasiatic continent and also on Afica (R1b1) anyway : some subclades of R1a are surely associated to the Indo Aryans or first Indo Europeans In India R1a is found in the upper caste and in the lowers I am sorry but G2a3b1 is exclusively found in the upper caste. The situation is not easy to understand I know ...

Willy,
Please could you supply a reference for this. I am very interested.

Maciamo
18-10-10, 14:10
Bullshit men ! G2a3b1 came in Europe during the bronze age ( 4500 years old) and the Indo european expansion this haplogroup was surely an elite among what we call the " germanic" tribes let fall these tribes of caucasus ! G2a3b1 is found also in India in the Indo Aryans ... G2a3b1 is the only true Indo European haplogroup

I cannot say whether G2a3b1 is exclusively Indo-European or Neolithic. We need more ancient Y-DNA to determine that.

G2a3 in general has a distribution that could fit the southern European route of Neolithic diffusion (Anatolia => Greece => Italy => France => Iberia).

However STR markers seem to point at a more recent origin of G2a3b1, surely too recent to be of Neolithic origin, and more likely of Bronze Age origin. In that case it would have migrated along with R1b1b2a from the eastern Black Sea region to central and western Europe. The only problem with this theory is that G2a3b1 is quite rare in the Danube basin, contrarily to R1b1b2a. Perhaps it is because G2a3b1 were Caucasian metal workers who went directly to mountainous regions like the Alps, the Apennines and northern Spain in search of gold, copper and tin.

If that is so, we still cannot know if G2a3b1 people belonged to the elite or the working class (or slave class ?) of the Indo-Europeans. The high density of G2a3 in mountainous areas rather suggest that they were mine workers and metallurgists, so not the elite. The tremendous demographic explosion of R1b1b2a from the Bronze Age onwards is more consistent with a polygamist society dominated by R1b1b2a men.

Maciamo
18-10-10, 14:21
It depends some R1a have nothing to do with the Indo europeans the Slavic R1a is not the same than the Indian R1a the situation is the same for R1b1 : a large old paleolithic haplogroup on the Eurasiatic continent and also on Afica (R1b1) anyway : some subclades of R1a are surely associated to the Indo Aryans or first Indo Europeans In India R1a is found in the upper caste and in the lowers I am sorry but G2a3b1 is exclusively found in the upper caste. The situation is not easy to understand I know ...

G2a3b1 may be found in the Hindu upper castes, but it is a very rare haplogroup (under 1% of the Brahmins). R1a1 is clearly the dominant Brahmin haplogroup, followed by R2, J2 and R1b1b2.

I am only aware of one study that found 11.9% of G2a among the Dravidian upper caste. But that was a tiny sample size (n=59) and so was not representative at all.

MPA
18-10-10, 15:43
About King Luis XVI he belongs to G2a3b1 (Germanic Indo European haplogroup)

The use of the word indo ? is not accurate .

Yorkie
18-10-10, 16:17
The use of the word indo ? is not accurate .

Why is that? 'Indo' here refers to the 'Indo-European' [otherwise known as 'Kurgan' or 'Aryan'] peoples and languages.

MPA
18-10-10, 16:40
The high density of G2a3 in mountainous areas rather suggest that they were mine workers and metallurgists, so not the elite..


The haplogroup G were quite likely the original inhabitants of Europe. As Indoeuropean tribes started migrating to Europe the original inhabitants lost their territories to escape to inaccessible high altitude terrain for safety. It was very common that people living in mountain areas were isolated and more protected from outside invaders. ususally people living in mountain areas also preserve their heritage more effectively than those living in lowland areas.

----------------------------------------------------
the Origin of Y-dna haplogroup G in Wapedia:
Haplogroup G (Y-DNA)

Origins

Various estimated dates and locations have been proposed for the origin of Haplogroup G. The National Geographic Society places haplogroup G origins in the Middle East 10-20,000 years ago and presumes that people carrying the haplogroup took part in the spread of the Neolithic Two scholarly papers have also suggested an origin in the Middle East, while differing on the date. Semino et al. suggested 17,000 years ago. Cinnioglu et al. suggested the mutation took place 9,500 years ago. [The oldest skeletons confirmed by ancient DNA testing as carrying haplogroup G date only from the 7th century C.E. and were found in present-day Bavaria, Germany.

MPA
18-10-10, 16:46
Why is that? 'Indo' here refers to the 'Indo-European' [otherwise known as 'Kurgan' or 'Aryan'] peoples and languages.

There is no evidence that y-dna Haplogroup G in europe originated in india to call it an indo european.

willy
18-10-10, 17:13
G2a3b1 may be found in the Hindu upper castes, but it is a very rare haplogroup (under 1% of the Brahmins). R1a1 is clearly the dominant Brahmin haplogroup, followed by R2, J2 and R1b1b2.

I am only aware of one study that found 11.9% of G2a among the Dravidian upper caste. But that was a tiny sample size (n=59) and so was not representative at all.
Pay attention on that http://php.scripts.psu.edu/faculty/a/x/axr15/My_Paternal_Ancestry.htm

I propose you to call Arvind Rangaswamy he is Indian so he could help you !

"Its presence among just the Iyer and Iyengar castes in India provides another 150,000 (total Iyers and Iyengars 3,000,000; half of them are males, and about 11% of them are G2a3b1)." ( the word Iyengar comes from Aryan in Sanskrit ) "

"The remnants of the Northern satrap of the Saka empires potentially are part of todays Punjabis, people with surnames Kamboj and Kamboh, and the Paswan community in Bihar (which consists of more than 40% R1a1, in addition to 11% G2a). The name Paswan comes from the Persian word Paasban meaning guard."

"
Among Iyers and Iyengars, the major Haplotypes are R1a1, J2a, J2b*, G2a, R2, H1, L1, and C5.The Iyengar name is an extension of Iyer, and has an interesting origin. When the north Indian Brahmins settled in the South (mostly after 4th century CE, although there were small migrations earlier), the word Ayya (from Arya) was used by the local Tamils to refer to, or address, the Brahmins. "

So about R1b1b2 it is NOT found among the Brahmin upper caste ! So please give your sources ? I am OK about R2 J2 and R1a despite R1a in India seems too much older that the Indo European spread ...

willy
18-10-10, 17:18
There is no evidence that y-dna Haplogroup G in europe originated in india to call it an indo european.

G2a3b1 is NOT originated from INDIA it came to INDIA ! and now G2a3b1 is found in the upper caste of India (people who have an Indo Ayan origin never mind the language Dravidian or Sanskrit )
And now why G2a3b1 is INDO EUROPEAN ? because this haplogroup is 4500 years old this is the Bronze age ... and the spread of the Indo European people ...So you can find G2a3b1 in Europe and in INDIA this is the best Haplogroup with some subclades of R1a for tracing the Indo European migration .

willy
18-10-10, 17:22
Willy,
Please could you supply a reference for this. I am very interested.
OK write to me and I will take the time to give you some references

willy
18-10-10, 17:33
I
cannot say whether G2a3b1 is exclusively Indo-European
If that is so, we still cannot know if G2a3b1 people belonged to the elite or the working class (or slave class ?) of the Indo-Europeans. The high density of G2a3 in mountainous areas rather suggest that they were mine workers and metallurgists, so not the elite. The tremendous demographic explosion of R1b1b2a from the Bronze Age onwards is more consistent with a polygamist society dominated by R1b1b2a men.

You talk about G2a3 in mountainous areas rather as mine workers ? so what is the age of G2a3 ? this a non sens if G2a3b1 is 4500 years old G2a3 is older no ? working class (or slave class ?) of the Indo-Europeans ? There is 2 G2a3b1 found on 6 in a Frankish burial area in Bavaria so they were from a high class of warriors so they were the slaves of your master race indo european R1b1b2 ?

Melusine
18-10-10, 19:23
BTW: my paternal hg G has an extra a at the end: G2a3b1a1a. Sorry, that I left this out last time.

One of the most respected sites for genealogy is :
foundation for medieval genealogy. search under that site for Robert The Strong. There is still no positive idenification on who his father was .

Hope this helps to understand more about haplogroup G.

Should the :heart: of King Louis XVI's son be tested and found to match this G sample, this information on G will be most useful. However, there is at least one living male in France or French who has a pedigree as is "a pretender" to the French throne (perhaps he might be contacted and tested in future). So until and IF this hg G presumptive y-dna is identified with the Capetians, we just have to "wait" and "see".

Also, if one is interested in the G2a (two males) that were found in Bavaria here is a good link search for: ergolding skeletons. Skeletons 244e and 244f were hg G2a (they were robbed) the other 3 were R1b and were not robbed. I wonder why (because they were miners or nobles)?


According to FTDNA, of the thousands of males that have tested that are of European Origins only 2% are haplogroup G and it's subclades.

What a mess it would be if 65% of R1bs all "claimed" to be Capets etc. And does it make sense that "Royals" would be in the Majority? Who would do all the work:smile:. Put 100 males in a room and 65 are hg R1b, and 25% are Hg I (eye), and the rest J, J1, J2 and E3b, and only 2 men are hg G, who might be the Alpha males?

Also keep in mind that we are discussing a father to father descent with y-dna. The maternal line is not the issue at hand.

Melusine

willy
18-10-10, 20:05
Also, if one is interested in the G2a (two males) that were found in Bavaria here is a good link search for: ergolding skeletons. Skeletons 244e and 244f were hg G2a (they were robbed) the other 3 were R1b and were not robbed. I wonder why (because they were miners or nobles)?

Melusine

You said your father line was a French noble G2a3b1 ..
So about Bavaria 2 G2a (one is clearly G2a3b1) on 5 is a fantastic proportion compare the % of G2a3b1 men found in Europe this is an extremely good representativity among the Frankish elite - miners or slaves of the R1b1b2 master Indo European men ..
they were robbed yes .. may be by this "great Indo european elite" (very common in fact) " master race" I mean always R1b1b2 ! So about the King Luis wait and see yes so to confirm a lineage the common logical way is to test the ancestors not the descendants so Luis XIV skeleton seems the best solution .

MPA
19-10-10, 03:03
G2a3b1a1a............
Hope this helps to understand more about haplogroup G.

Also, if one is interested in the G2a (two males) that were found in Bavaria here is a good link search for: ergolding skeletons. Skeletons 244e and 244f were hg G2a (they were robbed) the other 3 were R1b and were not robbed.?
Melusine

Thanks Melusine for providing your family dna and also the finding in Bavaria.
Regards

willy
19-10-10, 03:10
Thanks Melusine for providing your family dna and also the finding in Bavaria.
Regards
The finding in Bavaria is not a scoop ... 2 G2a3b1 of a high class in a Merovingian burial
600 AD in Bavaria this info is knew about more than one year ...
Croat Med J. 2009 June; 50(3): 286–295.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702742/

So the noble father line G2a3b1 of Melusine is a scoop .

Maciamo
19-10-10, 08:34
The finding in Bavaria is not a scoop ... 2 G2a3b1 of a high class in a Merovingian burial
600 AD in Bavaria this info is knew about more than one year ...
Croat Med J. 2009 June; 50(3): 286–295.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2702742/

So the noble father line G2a3b1 of Melusine is a scoop .

Don't put too much thought into it. 5 samples doesn't mean anything. The two G2a3b1 Merovingian noblemen might well have been related, as is often the case in cemeteries.

willy
19-10-10, 11:34
Don't put too much thought into it. 5 samples doesn't mean anything. The two G2a3b1 Merovingian noblemen might well have been related, as is often the case in cemeteries.

So ? the 2 G2a3b1 are not the same anyway 2 on 5 is not a % found in the ordinary population the G2a3b1 are less than this and it is a Merovingian high class lineage not ordinary people as Gaulish farmers R1b1b2

But one thing is interesting : the noble father line G2a3b1 of Melusine is a scoop .

MPA
19-10-10, 16:05
.........The finding in Bavaria is not a scoop ... 2 G2a3b1 of a high class in a Merovingian burial
600 AD in Bavaria this info is knew about more than one year ...
Croat Med J. 2009 June; 50(3): 286–295. .........

So the noble father line G2a3b1 of Melusine is a scoop .

Regarding the Bavaria finding ,thank you for the link .
Melusine Y-dna G2a3b1a1a is interesting , because it shed more light.

willy
19-10-10, 22:49
Regarding the Bavaria finding ,thank you for the link .
Melusine Y-dna G2a3b1a1a is interesting , because it shed more light.
Yes absolutely cause Melusine Y DNA Father line was a French Aristocrat it confirms that G2a3b1 seems to involved in the Frankish elite I would be curious to test the Old real notability of France not this kind of Bourgeois who bought his title of "noble" (surely R1b1b2 :wary2: ) the problem is that it should be rare to find the real old Frankish nobility so the other one who comes from the Bourgeois must be massive and R1b1b2 ...

MPA
20-10-10, 17:39
...G2a3b1 seems to involved in the Frankish elite ......
if proven, it will add to our knowledges.

DejaVu
30-10-10, 01:03
Hi all!

I am born and live in Sweden but my parents is from Macedonia (FYROM).

My Y-DNA is G2a3b1a and I got 8 DYS# Alleles matches as Louis XVI, but 5 of the remaining 9 with only 1 number failing to match.

And with the persons found in Ergolding Germany I got 11 matches with grave 244E and 9 matches with grave 244F.

DejaVu
01-11-10, 02:27
The Biggest Secret - by David Icke

The Merovingians
This bloodline and its offshoots includes a long line of pharaohs in ancient Egypt, including Rameses II (1295-1228 BC), who is considered to be the greatest pharaoh of all. He was his country's master architect (sacred geometry) and his name can be found on almost every ancient shrine. The gold mines of Nubia made him rich beyond the imagination. This bloodline also includes the extraterrestrial-human hybrids who ruled Sumer, Babylon, Greece, and Troy, and which, today, rule the world.

One common link in this bloodline is Philip of Macedonia (382-336BC),who married Olympias, and their son was Alexander the Great (356-323BC), a tyrant who plundered that key region of Greece, Persia, Syria, Phoenicia, Egypt, Babylon, the former lands of Sumer, and across into India before dying in Babylon at the age of 33. During his rule of Egypt he founded the city of Alexandria, one the greatest centers for esoteric knowledge in the ancient world. Alexander was taught by the Greek philosopher, Aristotle, who in turn was taught by Plato and he by Socrates. The bloodline and the hidden advanced knowledge have always gone together.

This key bloodline comes down through the most famous Egyptian queen, Cleopatra (60-30BC), who married the most famous Roman Emperor, Julius Caesar, and bore him a son, who became Ptolemy XIV. She also bore twins with Mark Anthony, who has his own connections to this line and its many offshoots; this bloodline also connects to Herod the Great, the "Herod" of the Jesus stories, and continues to the Roman Piso family who, as I explain in The Biggest Secret, wrote the Gospel stories and invented the mythical figure called Jesus!!; the same bloodline includes Constantine the Great, the Roman Emperor who, in 325AD, turned Christianity, based on his ancestors' stories, into the religion we know today, and King Ferdinand of Spain and Queen Isabella of Castile, the sponsors of Christopher Columbus, who instigated the horrific Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834) in which people were tortured and burned at the stake for in any way questioning the basis of the religion their various ancestors had created.

More than that, the most used version of the Bible [King James Bible] was commissioned and sponsored by another strand in the same bloodline, King James 1st of England. Just a coincidence, nothing to worry about! The line of James, according to genealogy sources listed below, can be traced back to 1550 BC and beyond and includes many Egyptian pharaohs, including Rameses II.

The bloodline moved into France and northern Europe through the Franks and Meroveus or Merovee, who gave his name to the Merovingian bloodline, and it continues with the rest of the Merovingian clan like Clovis and the Dagoberts who connect into the elite secret society, the Priory of Sion and the Rennes-le-Chateau "mystery" in Languedoc [Provence], Southern France. Many books have been written recently which claim that the Merovingians are the bloodline of "Jesus".
Some of these authors have just been mistaken, others have blatantly sought to confuse and mislead. The Merovingians are a key bloodline, yes, but it has nothing to do with Jesus, who was invented by an earlier family in the same line, the Pisos. Authors like Sir Laurence Gardner (Bloodline of the Holy Grail and a favorite of Nexus Magazine and its owner, Duncan Roads) MUST know this and yet they still connect the Merovingians to "Jesus". Why??

The Merovingians were Goddess Diana worshippers, as are so many in this line to the present day. They founded the city we call Paris and on one of their former sites of Diana ritual, Princess Diana was murdered in the Pont d'Alma tunnel (meaning "bridge or passage of the Moon Goddess") on August 31st, 1997. As The Biggest Secret points out, the Windsors, another Merovingian bloodline, were very much involved in this ritual murder.
From the Merovingians, this bloodline's connections to the present day include: Charlemagne (742-814), who ruled as Emperor of the West in the Holy Roman Empire; a stream of French kings, including Robert II, Philip Ist, II and III, and Louis Ist, II, VI, VII, VIII, VIIII, XIII, IX, XV, and XVI. The latter married Marie Antoinette of this same bloodline and both were executed in the French Revolution. But they produced the son who became Daniel Payseur, who, as The Biggest Secret explains, was taken to the United States where he became the secret force behind the Morgan and Carnegie empires and owned vast amounts of real estate, banking, and industrial holdings.

This bloodline also connects to the de Medici family which supported Christopher Columbus and produced Catherine de Medici, the Queen of France who died in 1589. Her doctor was Nostradamus: It includes Rene d'Anjou, Duke of Lorraine, and the House of Lorraine which employed Nostradamus and Christopher Columbus. The bloodline relatives of the de Medicis and the House of Lorraine, Queen Isabella of Castile and King Ferdinand of Spain, were also sponsors of Columbus when he "discovered" the Americas.

This bloodline also includes the Habsburgs, the most powerful family in Europe under the Holy Roman Empire; Geoffrey Plantagenet and the Plantagenet royal dynasty in England; King John, who signed the Magna Carta; King Henry Ist, II, and III, who were extremely close to the Knights Templar, as was King John; Mary Stuart and the Stuart Dynasty, including King James Ist of England, sponsor of the King James version of the Bible; King George Ist, II, and III; Edward Ist, II, and III, Queen Victoria; Edward VII; George V and VI; Queen Elizabeth II; Prince Charles and Elizabeth's other offspring, Anne, Andrew and Edward; Princes William and Harry from Charles' "marriage" to Princess Diana; US Presidents, George Washington, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and George Bush are all named in the charts as strands of this bloodline; it was passed on to the year 2000 US presidential favorite, George W. Bush Jr., and his brother, Jeb Bush, the Governor of Florida.

In fact if you go deeply enough into the genealogical research you will find that ALL the presidents are from this line. Genealogical sources, like the New England Historical Genealogical Society and Burkes Peerage, have shown that 33 of the 42 presidents [up] to Clinton are related to Charlemagne and 19 are related to England's Edward III, both of whom are of this bloodline. A spokesman for Burkes Peerage, the bible of royal and aristocratic genealogy based in London, has said that every presidential election since and including George Washington in 1789 has been won by the candidate with the most royal genes. Now we can see how and why. United States presidents are not chosen by ballot, they are chosen by blood!

This same bloodline also includes key Scottish families like the Lords of Galloway and the Comyns; Marie-Louise of Austria, who married Napoleon Bonaparte; Kaiser Wilhelm II, the king of Germany at the time of the First World War; and Maximilian, the Habsburg emperor of Mexico, who died in 1867. On and on it goes into country after country. This bloodline connects into every surviving royal family in Europe, including King Juan Carlos of Spain and the Dutch, Swedish, and Danish royal lines.

Melusine
01-11-10, 03:01
DejaVu

Other than your own G y-dna haplogroup.

Where are the haplogroup y-dna or mtdna results for all above the above persons posted PUBLICALLY? Since, postings on this particular blog is about genetics, it's important to support your above "information" in genetic terms or at least in evolutionary terms. In the case of genetics would you please provide source names of geneticists and companies involved in the testing.


Is David Icke a geneticists? Being related to Charlemagne just might amount to one drop of dna. His direct paternal line very early on after his death (at best 4-5 generations.

Genealogists have noted that if one can trace back ones own family tree 10 generations we will have more than 1000 ancestors. Since Charlemagne was living in 800 c.e., that would amount to about 3000 +- ancestors.... go figure.

Melusine

DejaVu
01-11-10, 03:12
David Icke is presenting information without evidence and I dont believe in it.

Posted it for all to know that there is information on the royal connection and that does not have anything to do with any haplotype or if we believe in it, maybe wrong to post it here. It´s about genetics anyway.
If we can link real proof only, we can close the whole forum, its just about what people think and not posted as evidence.

willy
01-11-10, 11:29
Hi all!

I am born and live in Sweden but my parents is from Macedonia (FYROM).

My Y-DNA is G2a3b1a and I got 8 DYS# Alleles matches as Louis XVI, but 5 of the remaining 9 with only 1 number failing to match.

And with the persons found in Ergolding Germany I got 11 matches with grave 244E and 9 matches with grave 244F.

Ok you are a Frank ? or Germans I mean Saxon ? you origin is from Macedonia it doesn't match to Bavaria or Frankreich ?

DejaVu
01-11-10, 18:25
iGENEA http://www.igenea.com/
Results showed that I belong to the Celtic or Viking tribe in the period of the antiquity. How they came up with this? Dont ask me dont have a clue.

My matches with the graves and Louis XVI is not close related, just mention it anyway that I got some matches, that really means nothing. What I am? Same as you others a human being :)

willy
01-11-10, 23:20
iGENEA http://www.igenea.com/
Results showed that I belong to the Celtic or Viking tribe in the period of the antiquity. How they came up with this? Dont ask me dont have a clue.

My matches with the graves and Louis XVI is not close related, just mention it anyway that I got some matches, that really means nothing. What I am? Same as you others a human being :)

Yes so your origin is Macedonia and I wonder how the Vikings or the Celt are connected to Macedonia ? just a question is there others G2a3b1 in Sweden ?

Maciamo
02-11-10, 09:53
iGENEA http://www.igenea.com/
Results showed that I belong to the Celtic or Viking tribe in the period of the antiquity. How they came up with this? Dont ask me dont have a clue.

My matches with the graves and Louis XVI is not close related, just mention it anyway that I got some matches, that really means nothing. What I am? Same as you others a human being :)

Don't trust iGenea. So far, almost all the DNA interpretations I saw from iGenea were either vague and useless or completely ludicrous.

Brennos
30-06-14, 21:38
Yes absolutely cause Melusine Y DNA Father line was a French Aristocrat it confirms that G2a3b1 seems to involved in the Frankish elite I would be curious to test the Old real notability of France not this kind of Bourgeois who bought his title of "noble" (surely R1b1b2 :wary2: ) the problem is that it should be rare to find the real old Frankish nobility so the other one who comes from the Bourgeois must be massive and R1b1b2 ... I don't understand why if a Y-DNA of an important royal house turns out to be G, E, R1a, I, T or Q, so it is surely correct... if, instead, it turns out to be R1b, it MUST be false or there MUST have been a Non-parental event. Very ridicoulous... also for people who follow the same line: all anti-R1b, like a sort of cyber-genetic new-age racists: R1b are slaves, bourgeois weak and characterized by servilism, an inferior race of workers under a divine R1a or G or E or I or T or Q master angelic race of supermen. If I were among those fancy scholars, well... I would think that all my position is a real insult against my intellect.... Oh... yes: I forgot N... what a mistake! Another haplogroup of masters that must have dominated over R1b....