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Marc Rousset
22-10-10, 09:07
France, Germany and Russia potentially all the attributes of a great power capable globally to counterbalance the United States, France providing the political and ideological orientations, the Germany's economic power and Russia's military capabilities.

Note that on this axis, the Atlantic shore to shore Pacific, fourteen time zones, the sun never sets. This would be a way to finally create this "Third Rome" which have always dreamed separately France, Germany and Russia. Eurosiberia this would truly independent, would not threaten anybody, but also person, whether China, the United States or Islam could not really threaten. That is why France and Germany should redesign the architecture of Europe in cooperation with Russia.

Maciamo
22-10-10, 10:54
Why do you think that Russia is more friendly towards the EU than the USA, or even China ? The Russians have been the worst bullies of EU member states (mostly Eastern ones) in the last few years, by blackmailing them about gas prices and such. I wish that the Russian government would have a more positive attitude towards other European countries, but there is a lot of hurt feelings to mend.

Btw, I noticed that your IP address was in Russia, so I took the liberty of correcting your country flag, so as not to mislead other forum members.

iapodos
22-10-10, 11:45
The Axis Berlin Moscow was an old alliance. Not to mention Hitler-Staljin agreement , but to rembeber League of the Three Emperors from 1873. beetwen Austro-Hungary, Germany and Russia.
It is well known fact that alliance of Russians and Germans produce nightmares, especially in Anglo-American countries. But in this moment, both Russia and EU (read Germany) have much more common interests than EU and USA, for example. And it is not just energetic dependance of EU from Russia, but compatibility of growing German economy and high technology and fields of posibilities that Russian resources and land offer for.
On the other side, does really Americans wish to Europe all the best. I wouldn't say so. Do they really want stabile, prosperous Europe which can solve alone its own problems?
It was so obvious on the example of war in ex- Yugoslavia. Europe was totally excluded from solving problems in their own backyard. Deyton peace agreement was signed in Deyton, Ohio with American supervision. The same situation was with Kosovo too. The message to Europe was: You are incapable to solve problems in your own house, and you will never be superforce. And how could we actually talk at all about some independent politics of EU? But we can talk about independent politics of Germany and France. I don't doubt that they a long time ago began to search for alternative solutions.

LeBrok
22-10-10, 16:32
Sorry Marc, but you should be dreaming about democracy and freedoms for Russians and not another Russian Empire.

Aristander
22-10-10, 16:46
As an American I can understand the reason that America seems to feel that way and sometimes seems to use a heavy hand in Europe. We haven't completely forgotten the events of the past century and the impact that barbarity, imperialism, regionalism and nationalism has had on Europe and the world. So please don't blame the current conditions and actions of America on any attempt to dominate Europe.
Remember America is the child of Europe, most of our population derived from European ancestors so we naturally feel some kinship with the European people. However even if it seems that America is meddling itself too deeply in European affairs most of the American people are really fairly deeply isolationist in their attitudes. For the most part the American people do not want to be involved in European and World affairs.
We would much rather sit in our homes and enjoy our lives and not worry about Russia extorting Germany for natural gas or if the Balkans were going to explode into war again. But we remember, we remember when America sat back and tried to ignore what was going on in Europe and Asia in the last century and saw the deaths of millions result in our attempts to stay out of it.
Yes, we stick our nose into world events, but we don't want to see a petty tin god like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Kim Jung Il or Hugo Chavez turn into another Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot and be responsible for the deaths of millions. We all need to understand that the world is too small and we all live in it, we have to all be involved with the affairs of our neighbors because if we ignore that our neighbors house is on fire and don't try and put it out the flames will spread to our on home.
Since WWII and particularly since the fall of the Soviet Union for the most part, most of Europe has been stable, productive and a model of democratic ideals and freedom. There are many regions in Europe that are islands of culture, stability and high ideals that America should strive to be like. Again however we remember the history of Europe and we remember the periodic spurts of madness and war which have swept the entire continent in the last 2000 years. We can only hope that America, Europe and the rest of the world are reaching a level of cultural maturity that will allow us to settle disputes and manage our affairs without wars, genocide and disaster.
I don't want to sound condescending or act like America is trying to be the patron of the rest of the world, but we have to remember that all (the whole world's population) need to remember that our reponsibilities as human beings go deeper than just to ourselves and our families.

iapodos
22-10-10, 17:11
As an American I can understand the reason that America seems to feel that way and sometimes seems to use a heavy hand in Europe. We haven't completely forgotten the events of the past century and the impact that barbarity, imperialism, regionalism and nationalism has had on Europe and the world. So please don't blame the current conditions and actions of America on any attempt to dominate Europe.
Remember America is the child of Europe, most of our population derived from European ancestors so we naturally feel some kinship with the European people. However even if it seems that America is meddling itself too deeply in European affairs most of the American people are really fairly deeply isolationist in their attitudes. For the most part the American people do not want to be involved in European and World affairs.
We would much rather sit in our homes and enjoy our lives and not worry about Russia extorting Germany for natural gas or if the Balkans were going to explode into war again. But we remember, we remember when America sat back and tried to ignore what was going on in Europe and Asia in the last century and saw the deaths of millions result in our attempts to stay out of it.
Yes, we stick our nose into world events, but we don't want to see a petty tin god like Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, Kim Jung Il or Hugo Chavez turn into another Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot and be responsible for the deaths of millions. We all need to understand that the world is too small and we all live in it, we have to all be involved with the affairs of our neighbors because if we ignore that our neighbors house is on fire and don't try and put it out the flames will spread to our on home.
Since WWII and particularly since the fall of the Soviet Union for the most part, most of Europe has been stable, productive and a model of democratic ideals and freedom. There are many regions in Europe that are islands of culture, stability and high ideals that America should strive to be like. Again however we remember the history of Europe and we remember the periodic spurts of madness and war which have swept the entire continent in the last 2000 years. We can only hope that America, Europe and the rest of the world are reaching a level of cultural maturity that will allow us to settle disputes and manage our affairs without wars, genocide and disaster.
I don't want to sound condescending or act like America is trying to be the patron of the rest of the world, but we have to remember that all (the whole world's population) need to remember that our reponsibilities as human beings go deeper than just to ourselves and our families.
It all would be truth if original aims of politics of any nation, not only USA, would be pure humanistic care for goodness of mankind,but not the pure economical and political interests of each country.
So, Aristander,I simply do not believe that American politics is lead by principals you quoted. I have felt that personally when American bombs were falling on my head, and more than thousands of civilians died in 1999, in one of many American efforts to bring peace to Europe in an action they cinically called "Merciful angel". Three year old Milica Rakić, killed by Nato bombs, was only one of many serbian children victims of that American "merciful, pure humanistic actions" in Balkan.
So, don't find yourself insulted if I don't believe in such kind of fairytales. It is not matter only with the USA, but with all other countries. Humanistic reasons are not something what run them on. I am just trying to be more realistic, and I am totally aware of fact that average American has no idea what his government are doing all around world in the name of American citizens.

Aristander
22-10-10, 18:23
Well, you can't blame the USA for all of the bombs on your country. That was a mission run by NATO commanders and the UN. If you want to blame anyone, blame yourself and your fellow countrymen for electing Slobodan Milosevic as your leader.
Milosevic was internationally acclaimed as a War Criminal and a Hitler want to be with his virulent Serbian Nationalism. I guess you think that Europe and the rest of the "civilized" world should stand back while racist extremism and ethnic cleansing were the flavor of the month in Serbia.
Milosevic was just the sort of petty tin god god that this Earth does not need leading any nation and I will defend the right of the rest of the world to name these criminals and use every means necessary to get rid of them. I can tell you that if my country came under the power of someone like that I would be in the hills fighting against them to my last breath!
Your nation and the whole region of the Balkans are prime examples of cultural insanity and rabid nationalistic views of the world. My "merciful, pure humanistic actions" do not stretch far enough to cover racism, ethnic cleansing or virulent nationalism that destroys human life and people's right to choose to live in peace.
I just wish that the US and rest of the world would take an interest wiping out other despots and ending ethnic hatred in Africa.

iapodos
22-10-10, 20:52
Well, I don't want to argue with you about politics in Balkan, because I see your opinions are already very well formed, exactly the way the CNN and the rest of "independent" media wanted to be.
You said:
"Well, you can't blame the USA for all of the bombs on your country. That was a mission run by NATO commanders and the UN. If you want to blame anyone, blame yourself and your fellow countrymen for electing Slobodan Milosevic as your leader."
And I can ask you, are the children of Serbia to blame for that?
I will remind you that NATO led by Americans bombed some purely civilian targets:
Hospital Dragiša Mišović in the centre of Belgrade. Results: dead patients and medical personels.
Television of Serbia, also in the centre of Belgrade. Result: 16th dead journalists
Passenger train in Grdelica. Result: dead passengers, many childrens among them.
Bridge in town Varvarin. Result: killed all civilians who appeared to be on the bridge.
And I already mention Milica Rakić, three year old girl, who was killed in bathroom of her own house. Was she also to blame for Milošević politics? Does she also deserve to be killed for the peace of rest the world?
And that is not end of the list...
I could never justified crimes of my nation toward any other nation and I never will. But obviously you are ready to justify what Americans did in Balkan, and want to cover that with that "humanitarian" excuses.
Or maybe you are lead by Machiavelli's : The end justifies the means.

Aristander
23-10-10, 00:27
I regret the unintentional deaths of any innocent civilian, however how about these intentional deaths perpetrated by Serbian forces?
Vukovar massacre
Lovas massacre
Bacin massacre
Bruska massacre
Dalj massacre
Vocin massacre
Saborsko massacre
Siroka Kula massacre
Skabrnja massacre
Ahatovici massacre
Foca massacres
Koricani Cliffs massacre
Prijedor massacre
Visegrad massacre
Tuzla Massacre
Paklenik Massacre
Markale massacre
Srebrenica massacre
Srebrenica Children's Massacre
Need I go on? I haven't even mentioned these...
Suva Reka massacre
Racak massacre
Podujevo massacre
Massacre at Velika Krusa
Izbica massacre
Drenica massacre
Gornje Obrinje massacre
Cuska massacre
Bela Crkva massacre
Orahovac massacre
Dubrava Prison massacre

You mention the accidental deaths of some children by American forces, Serbian forces killed hundreds if not thousands of children, not to mention the rapes of their mothers and castration of their fathers.
You and those of your ilk can go on blaming America and American policies for Europe's problems, but I can tell you that, to paraphrase from an "American Film", "Europe was a running brothel for 2000 years before America even existed."

iapodos
23-10-10, 01:00
You mention the accidental deaths of some children by American forces, Serbian forces killed hundreds if not thousands of children, not to mention the rapes of their mothers and castration of their fathers.

Accidental deaths?
If you call targeting of hospital,television or passenger train accidentall deaths, then you are more cynical then Nato itself. Nato spokesman call that "colaterall damages". Every misile has very precise cameras on itself, so every target was recorded and they knew what they are targeting. After intervention on offical Nato site those misile films was presented as propaganda movies. So you could watch how they intentionally targeting passenger train in Grdelica, for example. Maybe, that was reason for so much cases of suicide among pilots who were involved in intervention against Serbia, I heard for one just few months ago.
About your list, I could post you the list of same size of Serbian victims in that bloody civil war. But what would it change?
America's role in that war was just positioning on one side, the side which they find more prospective for their own interests. And interest was for example to stole Kosovo from Serbs and put there their military base Bondstil, one of bigest in Europe today. I suppose it was also of humanitarian matter.
However, as I said before, you can not justify American war crimes with Serbian war crimes. Innocent victims have no nationalities. Crime is a crime, whoever comitted it.
I don't find American people responsible for the mistakes of their own government, as you did for Serbs. I will not say that American people should suffer for every action of Bush or Clinton, as you say for Serbs and Milošević.
There is no collective, but personal guilt for every crime.
As American you should know that...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_casualties_during_Operation_Allied_Force

LeBrok
23-10-10, 04:01
ipods, reading your posts I have a feeling that all Serbs are saints like in your avatar, lol.
You should be thanking NATO and US that Milosevic is gone. Otherwise right now the last Serb or last Bosniak would be killed. That's your alternative?

iapodos
23-10-10, 11:01
ipods, reading your posts I have a feeling that all Serbs are saints like in your avatar, lol.
You should be thanking NATO and US that Milosevic is gone. Otherwise right now the last Serb or last Bosniak would be killed. That's your alternative?

Milosevic has gone not thankinkg to NATO or US, but in the demonstration of Serbian people in 2000 after he stole elections. And if you talk about Milosevic you should know that he was an ally and "factor of stability of Balkan" for US government in 1995 when Deyton peace agreement was signed. Later on in 1997. when he try to stole elections, Serbian people demonstrated on streets for three months, but no one from the west was interested for Milosevic to be overthrown then. They knew that Milosevic is perfect excuse, alibi to destroy one nation and to stole part of his land (Kosovo), what they did on the end.
I have never said that Serbs are saints, but I understand it is hard for you to accept that governements of your contries were intentionally destroying one nation and one country. One day, I believe, in future the truth will arise on surface.

LeBrok
23-10-10, 17:07
I have never said that Serbs are saints, but I understand it is hard for you to accept that governements of your contries were intentionally destroying one nation and one country. One day, I believe, in future the truth will arise on surface.

One nation? Believe me, you'll be better off with good neighbors and friends, than with one big Yugoslavia held together by dominant Serbs. The sooner you give up your dream about "The Big Great United" country the better for you. It's gone, because I guess, the Croats, the Bosniaks, Slovenians were not happy under Serbs, right?

Other thing. Don't feel so important thinking that our governments did had a program or plan to destroy Yugoslavia (for some reason???)
The NATO and US acted only to stop civil war with genocidal tendencies, that's all. Simple like this. No conspiracy. See now, no genocides, and you are left alone to do whatever you want with you country.

Marc Rousset
23-10-10, 17:43
Sorry Marc, but you should be dreaming about democracy and freedoms for Russians and not another Russian Empire.

It is primarily concerned with Europe and particularly France and Germany.

There is only one modern empire is - USA

For the next historical cycle will line up precisely this economic, political axis. And she will. It's about the unity of geopolitical interests, for the sustainable economic development and cultural preservation. Format of future contracts only thinks, but it will certainly include the military security and mutual economic cooperation and penetration. For the Anglo-Saxons is a loss, they will oppose this, but the train is on its way. The fact that the article referred to as the "periphery countries" will be in the role of Minority.

Another quote from the article:
"As for Europe, it can be considered as the western extension of Russia or Russia as the eastern extension of Europe. Europe can change Russia, as Russia can change Europe. The first option has failed three times: in 1709 with the defeat of Charles XII of Sweden at the Battle of Poltava, in front of Peter the Great in 1812, in Moscow during the retreat from Russia, and in 1943 at the Battle Stalingrad. The change in Europe by Russia ended with the fall of the Berlin Wall and the end of the Cold War. The Paris-Berlin-Moscow would be a peaceful way to achieve what has been achieved by force of arms, to realize the dream Gaullist vision of a Europe from the Atlantic to the Urals."

iapodos
23-10-10, 18:17
The NATO and US acted only to stop civil war with genocidal tendencies, that's all.

Yes, it is well known fact. When you want to do something bad, find good covering story. One of basic principles of machiavellism. US and NATO are well known all around world as bringing joy and hapiness in life of peoples. Ask Iraqi people what they think about that, or Vietnamese, or Afghans, or Chileans and other South Americans...
I will not try to persuade you, live in your illusion...

Mzungu mchagga
23-10-10, 21:38
France, Germany and Russia potentially all the attributes of a great power capable globally to counterbalance the United States, France providing the political and ideological orientations, the Germany's economic power and Russia's military capabilities.

Note that on this axis, the Atlantic shore to shore Pacific, fourteen time zones, the sun never sets. This would be a way to finally create this "Third Rome" which have always dreamed separately France, Germany and Russia. Eurosiberia this would truly independent, would not threaten anybody, but also person, whether China, the United States or Islam could not really threaten. That is why France and Germany should redesign the architecture of Europe in cooperation with Russia.


Uhm, you really think that Russia would subordinate itself to French political and ideological orientations, and France therefore commands Russia's military? And Germany will finance this deliberatly, as it is protected by French commanded Russian military?

Don't get me wrong, of course my dream is world peace, but this sounds like an upcoming war. Perhaps should the Anglo-Saxon World also unite to a new "Oceania", so we can play 1984 then! :bored:

Mzungu mchagga
23-10-10, 21:59
Yes, it is well known fact. When you want to do something bad, find good covering story. One of basic principles of machiavellism. US and NATO are well known all around world as bringing joy and hapiness in life of peoples. Ask Iraqi people what they think about that, or Vietnamese, or Afghans, or Chileans and other South Americans...
I will not try to persuade you, live in your illusion...


US and NATO are surely no saints! And I'm not a big supporter of their actions around the world. But just a question I'd like to know from you: What do you personally think why NATO attacked Serbia?

Don't want to be offensive, just curious to know from you!

iapodos
24-10-10, 01:08
@Mzungu mchagga
I believe that intervention of NATO in Serbia in 1999. was just a puzzle in general strategy of NATO in ruining international low. Action has never been approved in UN and this was for a first ime that NATO attacks foreign land and transforming itself as offensive rather than defensive force. Accidentally or not it was 50th anniversary of Nato in 1999.There was no humanitarian catastrophe on Kosovo before intervention. Suffering of people begin, both Serbs and Albanians after start of intervention. It was very well explained in German documentary Es began mit einer Luge ( It began with a lie).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rW2-vNNWFsE&feature=player_embedded
Intervention followed, actually, after Serb government refussing so callled Rambuje plan in which it was demanded explicitly for Serbs to allow NATO soldiers to enter on their own teritorry. And I am asking you what country can allow foreign army to enter on their own teritory. Americans led in that time by Madleine Olbright ( what an irony, saved in serbian countryside by serbian hosts as a little jewish girl from nacists) knew for sure that Serbs cannot accept such conditions and already made decision to intervene.
Bombarding of Serbia, attacking of independent country with so called "humanatarian" excuse had to be a model how would NATO intervene in all future cases, without approval of UN. International law was ruined then, and interventions in Iraq and Afghanistan was just a logical step, this time without of approval of all members of organization. They knew that Serbs have no weapons to respond to attaks, so they could peacufully for three months every they pouring a rain of bombs on Serbian cities. Serbs had to capitulate on the end, allowing NATO to enter on Kosovo, to form there semi protektorate provisional state, expulsing together wih Albanians majority of Serbs who lived there for century. First thing, Americans did after they enter was forming a military base Bondstil on teritory of Kosovo.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camp_Bondsteel
After final pogrom on Kosovo Serbs in 2004.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_unrest_in_Kosovo
they conclude that Albanians should be awarded with independence in 2008.
I hope I answer on your question.

Elias2
24-10-10, 01:40
International Law is just like Federal law, the poor and ordinary peple have to adhear by it while the rich can bend it and do whatever they want around it for their benefit. Serbians did commit crimes during the 90's, so did croats, and most defenatly albanians, I findd it strange however only serbs got punished, and albanians get rewarded a new country.

LeBrok
24-10-10, 05:20
Yes, it is well known fact. When you want to do something bad, find good covering story. One of basic principles of machiavellism. US and NATO are well known all around world as bringing joy and hapiness in life of peoples. Ask Iraqi people what they think about that, or Vietnamese, or Afghans, or Chileans and other South Americans...
I will not try to persuade you, live in your illusion...

Lol, illusion is what your avatar represents, and in essence you, couple of saint Serbs, right?
Look at center of Europe, after the WW2 Stalin separated all populations (one good thing he did), Germans, Polish, Ukrainians, Lithuanians, with not much minorities mixed. The communism fell, and look there, no war. The borders were moved, so what, new generations are not really interested in recovering the lost grounds. The life goes on, people work, raise kids, buy stuff, and enjoy life.
Now look at Yugoslavia, with mixed ethnicities. Communism fell, and the hell broke loose. NATO and US reacted, and there is peace now.
Would you be happier if you still fought with Bosnians or Albanians, with millions killed through years? Is this what you wanted?

"..rain of bombs...", please your are killing me with your dramatisation. Did you ever see documentary from carpet bombing of Munich? Or distraction of Nagasaki?
You just got a slap on a wrist, comparing to these. Too bad few got killed in the process. What would be the alternative if the war continued? Millions killed on both sides?
Just get real, stop playing the victim and the center of the world, worthy a conspiracy and attention of US. I guess they're after your oil. What precious things you have in Serbia? Maybe they are after your money to get even richer. Oh, I've forgotten, they already sucked the Germany dry, having so many military bases there, right? Japan too wasn't enough for them. Greedy bustards now want to enslave Serbia. Once again, what US what's from Serbia?
Go hug Bosniak and Albanian and promise to be a good neighbor. With this incredible gesture you would start a new era of peace on Balkans.

I'm sorry iapodos but your explanation don't make sense. I know you are hurting inside from all the war events, your pride was hurt, and you're trying to find explanation why is it happening to your loved Serbia. It's not a great base for logical and stoic thinking.

iapodos
24-10-10, 08:40
@LeBrok
As I said before, live in your illusion...

Anton, Bear's den
15-02-11, 23:05
The Russians have been the worst bullies of EU member states (mostly Eastern ones) in the last few years, by blackmailing them about gas prices and such..

lolz funny hahaha :laughing:
And what we did so terrible for last 20 years? Helped to Germany unite without bloodshed? Or probably "bloody KGB" again plans to capture the whole world as always? :lmao:
Gas? For the supply of resources is need to pay, free cheese only in a mousetrap. But some Ukranian policymakers thought that Russia is obligated to provide them by resources for free, eternally :laughing:. After "orange revolution" in Ukraine (by the way, sponsored by the West countries) new Ukranian politicians started very anti-Russian policy. We began to think, "if they so hate us then why the hell we feed their economy by cheap gas??? lol (many post-Soviet states had discounts on Russia's resources before it, because Russia's solidarity with transitional development period of economies of these states). Today it changed, no money = no resources. And Prices always were within of average market prices, so, where is "blackmailing"??? All fairly... :grin:


I wish that the Russian government would have a more positive attitude towards other European countries, but there is a lot of hurt feelings to mend.
I wish too that governments of Eastern European countries became smarter as soon as possible. They definitely have some problems with it:
Typical example is Polish unreasonably hysterical behavior with Kaczynski which openly represented Russia as enemy without reasons, even waited fictitious Russia's military aggression on Poland hahahaha and required the presence of America in Poland (and still demand). This is called "P-A-R-A-N-O-I-A".
Baltic countries - Lithuania, Estonia and Latvia by the way of thinking still somewhere in the middle of 1939 and the end of 1945 :laughing:, these "Red scum wanna enslave us! Panic!!!" hahahaha :laughing: Also they destroying old Soviet monuments and glorify the survived nazi legionnaires on the government level (!), allows nazi parades. We need probably to build some Stalin monuments on the Red Square? lol :laughing::laughing::laughing:
I simply don't understand these countries, what the hell they want? Russia does not even think to touch them.

As for "Axis Paris-Berlin+/-Moscow (lol)". This is the only real hope for those who really want a unified independent Europe. Paris-Berlin is backbone of modern EU, Brussels has no real power still. Must notice, there is no London there. United Kingdom (with all my respect to wonderful British people & culture) serve politically to Uncle Sam after Suez Crisis of 1956 year, I guess Britain have not much of trust because of it.
Some sources:
http://www.rp.pl/artykul/28,606630-Z-Moskwa-rozmawiajcie-za-posrednictwem-Unii.html
http://www.ilfoglio.it/soloqui/6646
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/26/world/europe/26iht-politicus.html?_r=3
http://www.slate.fr/story/28927/sommet-deauville-france-allemagne-russie
http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/0,1518,723852,00.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/19/world/europe/19iht-summit.html?_r=1&src=twrhp
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2010/1020/1224281544203.html
http://www.naszdziennik.pl/index.php?typ=dd&dat=20101020&id=main
http://www.reuters.com/article/2010/10/19/us-france-summit-eu-russia-idUSTRE69I2YF20101019
http://www.lefigaro.fr/mon-figaro/2010/10/17/10001-20101017ARTFIG00161-pour-une-alliance-economique-euro-russe.php
http://www.fenetreeurope.com/php/page.php?section=chroniques&id=0677
http://www.yvelinesradio.com/infos_all/affichage_all_01_489716576612_1733.html

Regulus
16-02-11, 00:45
Well, I don't want to argue with you about politics in Balkan, because I see your opinions are already very well formed, exactly the way the CNN and the rest of "independent" media wanted to be.
You said:
"Well, you can't blame the USA for all of the bombs on your country. That was a mission run by NATO commanders and the UN. If you want to blame anyone, blame yourself and your fellow countrymen for electing Slobodan Milosevic as your leader."
And I can ask you, are the children of Serbia to blame for that?
I will remind you that NATO led by Americans bombed some purely civilian targets:
Hospital Dragiša Mišović in the centre of Belgrade. Results: dead patients and medical personels.
Television of Serbia, also in the centre of Belgrade. Result: 16th dead journalists
Passenger train in Grdelica. Result: dead passengers, many childrens among them.
Bridge in town Varvarin. Result: killed all civilians who appeared to be on the bridge.
And I already mention Milica Rakić, three year old girl, who was killed in bathroom of her own house. Was she also to blame for Milošević politics? Does she also deserve to be killed for the peace of rest the world?
And that is not end of the list...
I could never justified crimes of my nation toward any other nation and I never will. But obviously you are ready to justify what Americans did in Balkan, and want to cover that with that "humanitarian" excuses.
Or maybe you are lead by Machiavelli's : The end justifies the means.


A major point here is that the amount of non-combatants casualties inflicted by the NATO forces was probably less than 1% of the total of the same caused by their opponents.

The loss of any child is gutwrenching, especially in that manner. I hope that those responsible for what may well have been incompetent decisions were punished.

At some point, people are going to have to admit to themselves that CNN is, if anything, closer to being against the US than for it.

LeBrok
16-02-11, 04:24
Anton, reread your post and think about your attitude. This is exactly Russian government attitude, past and present.
- ridicule other countries, or other's point of view, etc.
- don't care for smaller countries, though they are your neighbors.
- don't treat the smaller/less powerful countries like friends. Russia is so big and powerful why should we? F... them, they don't mean anything, “we don't even think about them”.
- only make friends and respect strong ones, Germany and France.
- last couple of times Russia made friends with Germany or Prussia all central and east European countries vanished. Why should Poland be afraid of next Ribbentrop/Molotov pact, hmmmm?

My friend, you are riding your imperialistic horse so high that you can't even see suffering of ordinary Russians. Even compared to Poland, most Russians live under poverty line. Get you house in order and take care of you citizens first. They are poor, they are exhausted and dying from alcoholism. For god sake, your government is still killing journalists, like the old ways. Clean up your house first, treat smaller countries like friends, so they are not afraid of Putin and alike. Find another Gorbatchov for this matter; he was a good Russian and citizen of the world.

Why would you think that Germany wants alliance with Russia? You have twice the people but twice smaller GDP. In case of this relationship going soure will you run for USA help again? I don't think Russia was strong enough to beat Germany in WW2 by itself. Tushonka anyone? Maybe a Jeep, truck or oil?, or grain from Canada? Should I mention technology transfers?
Can you find me Russian statistical/scientific documents about this help? Or Stalin burned them all from all the shame, and you didn't even learn about this in soviet schools?

Ask yourself a question. Why all the eastern and central European countries hated SU and now hate Russia? Is it from all the love you brought to their countries? Or maybe you brought them an economic prosperity like US in Germany and Japan? Or maybe you brough them democracy and all the freedoms? Or maybe you saved them from dying in mass graves and gulags in Siberia?
No? So why are you surprised?

Anton, Bear's den
16-02-11, 16:48
hahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahaha :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: are you a Canadian-Pole??? :thinking:
Nothing new, typical list of stamps. Let's see them closely:
First of all wanna say that your visions of Russia is outdated dramatically.


My friend, you are riding your imperialistic horse so high that you can't even see suffering of ordinary Russians. Even compared to Poland, most Russians live under poverty line. Get you house in order and take care of you citizens first. They are poor, they are exhausted and dying from alcoholism. For god sake, your government is still killing journalists, like the old ways.

Myth №1 "Suffering as in hell of ordinary Russians" are you sure comrade?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland

Difference in GDP per capita in Poland and Russia in 2010 is minimal. Especially given that Poland is much smaller and receives subsidy from European Union. Russia's GDP per capita grew from 4.500 of $ in 2000 year to 15.800 $ in 2010. Medical expenses have increased by 5 times in 10 years, average wages of the population has grown from $ 100 to $ 700 per month, unemployment today lower than in France (around 6-7%), powerty index became lower from 29% in 2000 year to 15% in 2009.

Alcoholism is still a problem, around 18 litres of alcohol average per year for a man is a big number (red line is 8 litres), but it more prone to the old soviet generation, not new one.

"your government is still killing journalists" :lmao: when in 90s we had "democratic Boris Yeltsin" (1991-1999) the number of killed journalists were in 3 times higher than from 2000-2010 year. And who the hell said you that it's "government" killing journalists? lol hahaha on the contrary, government toughens penalties for murder and beaten of journalists. Journalists receive danger of being killed when they dig up someone's corruption, it can be anyone who are not interested to show own sins to the public.
http://www.centpapiers.com/rio-grande-un-autre-regard-sur-la-russie/49900/comment-page-1
http://www.rosbalt.ru/2011/02/02/815134.html


Find another Gorbatchov for this matter; he was a good Russian and citizen of the world.
99% of my compatriots hate that man. He is a dreamer which can only talk and nothing more. Only retarded Soviet political system could give him a power. We don't blame him for the withdrawal of troops from Eastern Europe, it was necessarily, but 99% of my comrades sincerely hate him for his policy inside of USSR.


Germany wants alliance with Russia? You have twice the people but twice smaller GDP. In case of this relationship going soure will you run for USA help again? I don't think Russia was strong enough to beat Germany in WW2 by itself. Tushonka anyone? Maybe a Jeep, truck or oil?, or grain from Canada? Should I mention technology transfers?
Can you find me Russian statistical/scientific documents about this help? Or Stalin burned them all from all the shame, and you didn't even learn about this in soviet schools?.

You definitely a Pole hahahaha they have a fear not only Russia, but and Germany too hahahaha still hahaha. We (Russians) don't consider Germans as the enemies, moreover we have not complexes with them despite that we lost a lot of good people in WWII. The Germans are sincere when they are condemn Nazism, today. I do not think that a anti-German paranoia is a good idea.
About Lend Lease. First, Britain got in 3 times more Lend Lease goods & equipment from USA than USSR.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D1%8D%D0%BD%D0%B4%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B7
Lend Lease was very useful for us and we very grateful to allies for it, but no need to overvalue it anyway. It came with a large delays (in 1942 year we got only 30% of agreed volume for example) and Lend Lease was just about 5-10% of what Soviet Union produced during WWII. We paid price by our people & blood while Canadians & Americans just sat on their asses at home :laughing:.


Ask yourself a question. Why all the eastern and central European countries hated SU and now hate Russia?
Is it from all the love you brought to their countries? Or maybe you brought them an economic prosperity like US in Germany and Japan? Or maybe you brough them democracy and all the freedoms? Or maybe you saved them from dying in mass graves and gulags in Siberia?
No? So why are you surprised?
Why you think that "all" eastern and central European countries hated SU??? That's not so, Yugoslavia did not hate, modern Moldova don't hate, Eastern and Southern Ukraine don't hate, Belorussia don't hate too, I bet modern Germany is glad that we gave them East Germany without big problems. Really hate Soviet Union foaming at the mouth only Poland, Baltic States and Western pro-nazi Ukraine (Galicia), + maybe Romania or some Finnish warm patriots.
No need to blame USSR for killing "in millions" of simple people in Eastern Europe because after WWII and Stalin's death in 1953 we did not kill anyone there. Well, there was several suppressions of uprisings by tanks :innocent: and it's shamefully :ashamed2:, but had an alternative the communists during the Cold War??? :thinking:I don't think so. Maybe was several thousands of dissidents in Gulag camps aslo :innocent:, but that drop in the ocean from statements of different democratic bullshit screamers kinda "millions and millions of innocent freedom loving europeans were murdered by damn bloody commies in dirty smelly siberian camps" lol :laughing:
There is no saints also, no need to turn Soviet Union into total scapegoat. For example my favourite Poland :laughing:, that "eternal victim and pure angel" executed from 60 to 80 thousands of Soviet prisoners of war in 1920 year, shame on Poland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Camps_for_Russian_prisoners_and_internees_in_Polan d_(1919%E2%80%931924)
Poland occupied Vilnius region of Lithuania in 1920 year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_War
Poland also occupied Těšín region of Czechoslovakia in cooperation with Hitler in 1938 year
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munich_Agreement

That by the way is not only communist blame that they got half of Europe after the war, commies did not started WWII and Stalin (despite the fact that he was *******) never had ambitions/plans to take half or the whole Europe, only Hitler dreamed. There is a blame also on the western countries like Britain and France which favored to Hitler before the WWII by their policy of appeasement and concessions. France and Britain also did not want to sign a agrement against Nazi Germany with Soviet Union in case of their agression. And when war started and Germany attacked Poland, France/Britain did not absolutely nothing to help Poland in September-October of 1939.
Anyway it's a separate topic to discuss what the hell commies did in Europe and how they have appeared there.

USA did not brought economic prosperity to Germany and Japan lol it's their diligence and work on the bugs brought them prosperity after several bloody wars.

Yeah yeah, they (small offended countries) want love and respect from Russia, but can give only contempt and a growl in return, no thanks :)
I recommend to all offended take example from Finland & their government, they don't create unnecessary problems and awaken our consciences :ashamed2: in same time.
http://www.polityka.pl/swiat/rozmowy/1512266,1,rozmowa-z-premier-finlandii.read#axzz1E7hD5dJC

LeBrok
17-02-11, 09:20
hahahahahhahahahhahahahahahhahahahahahahaha :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: are you a Canadian-Pole??? :thinking:



Explain what's so funny about this?
I have Russian, Byelorussian, Moldavian, Ukrainian, Danish, English, Australian, etc friends here in Canada. Is this funny too, for some reason only known to you?



executed from 60 to 80 thousands of Soviet prisoners of war in 1920 year

Why do you use term "executed" if the concensus (from site which you linked) is that they died of desises. Did you get the numbers from old Soviet books? ...ah, then we have to trust them....

During the Polish-Soviet War (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Polish-Soviet_War), between 80,000-85,000[3] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-Moscow2004-2) Soviet soldiers became prisoners of war (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prisoner_of_war), and were held in Polish POW camps (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/POW_camp). The conditions in these camps were bad. Thus, the existing camps, many of which were adapted from World War I (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/World_War_I) German and Russian facilities or constructed by the prisoners themselves, were not adequate for holding the large number of prisoners, who suffered from hunger, bad sanitation and inadequate hygiene. Between 16,000-17,000 (Polish figures)[3] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-Moscow2004-2) and 18,000-20,000 (Russian figures)[3] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-Moscow2004-2) died, mostly as a result of catastrophic conditions and epidemics (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Epidemic) which raged in the camps. Before publications of new findings in Russia in 2004, some Russian sources were known to give a much inflated numbers for prisoners and the death toll (up to 165,000 and 70,000), respectively. This matter caused much controversy between Poland and Russia


In case if you forgot what execution and official policy of extermination is look for thousands of mass graves on Russian soil. The sculls are marked by a round hole at the back, the signature of typical NKVD execution. Also, look for millions berried around gulags, who died according to official policy of working to death. Minorities and Russians as well, but Russia is known as not caring for their own citizens either, so many, so extendable.

Where did you get an idea that I believe in notion of “angel” countries??? We all have a baggage of uneasy history, and we all have to deal with this. Sweeping Russian or Soviet crimes under the rug won’t work either. Your ridiculing other's point of view or a person you argue with is totally rude and close minded. You should listen to other sides of stories, this should help you undo many years of Soviet propaganda and russo- centrism. You're not that special, so try making friends not enemies.

Anton, Bear's den
17-02-11, 12:27
Explain what's so funny about this?
I have Russian, Byelorussian, Moldavian, Ukrainian, Danish, English, Australian, etc friends here in Canada. Is this funny too, for some reason only known to you?.
You reminded me a Pole, they have pretty funny mentality from my point of view.


Why do you use term "executed" if the concensus (from site which you linked) is that they died of desises. Did you get the numbers from old Soviet books? ...ah, then we have to trust them....
Wikipedia not very reliable source of information when it touch to the exact details. There even different language versions of articles have different information inside. I gave that link just to show that such fact was in history. Poland in 99% of cases just play a role of victim, I wanted to destroy such myth. Many sources talk about 60-80 thousands of people. Yes, they are Russian, but Poles use own sources constantly when they talk about Stalin crime in Katyn (20-25 thousands of Poles). Why we can't?
These people were executed because they died in Polish camps from hunger and bullying, disease simply a consequence of hunger. Poles wanted to have these people killed 100%. Polish leader (he was a dictator) at that time Marshal Pilsudski was a pure russophobe. By the way, to die slowly because of hunger is much worse than dying from a fast bullet in the neck, believe me.


Also, look for millions berried around gulags, who died according to official policy of working to death. Minorities and Russians as well, but Russia is known as not caring for their own citizens either, so many, so extendable.
For the whole 70 years of Soviet history in GULAG (General Directorate of labor camps, labor settlements and places of detention) died around 2.3 million of people (almost all in Stalinist period), 15 million prisoners in total. It terrible thing in our history, yes, but that our people went through it, not foreigners. I also not trying to justify commies, yes we had web of camps where people worked right up to the death. That not the death camps in nazi style, but absolutely nothing to be proud of too. But I don't understand your point, how the hell it can justify Polish marshall Pilsudski?


We all have a baggage of uneasy history, and we all have to deal with this. Sweeping Russian or Soviet crimes under the rug won’t work either. Your ridiculing other's point of view or a person you argue with is totally rude and close minded. You should listen to other sides of stories, this should help you undo many years of Soviet propaganda and russo- centrism. You're not that special, so try making friends not enemies.
I don't hide nothing. Commies did many terrible things on the border line with total insanity: bloody civil war (for us it was like second WWI if look on the casualties), collectivization (creation of inefficient collective farms), Gulag, the Stalinist repressions, aggression and the absorption of other countries, a dead-end economic policies of commies, lack of freedom in the communist system, etc.
But foreigners sometimes have a bad habit of blaming the USSR in all own mistakes and sins. I talked already about Poland, let's look on some other "innocent lambs" which scream sometimes about "bad commie occupiers":
Romania - Hitler's ally in WWII
Hungary - Hitler's ally in WWII
Austria - in some sense Hitler's ally, fought for Third Reich. Hitler's troops were greeted with flowers and shouts of joy.
Czechoslovakia - never resisted to nazi occupation, moreover played a role of military factory of the Third Reich, build 1/3 of tanks for nazis of perfect quality for the whole war, self-propelled artillery, armored troop-carriers etc...
Sweden - supplied Hitler by iron ore.
Pro-Hitler policy of Britain and France before the WWII + ignominious Treaty of Versailles in 1918 which provoked Germany again on aggression. In accordance with this agreement, Germany was obliged to pay payments to Britain and France right up to the 1990 year. This is ridiculous, what their heads thought about?

Regulus
No, I don't support none of the statements which you trying to attribute to me, read carefully.

Regulus
17-02-11, 15:24
You reminded me a Pole, they have pretty funny mentality from my point of view.


Wikipedia not very reliable source of information when it touch to the exact details. There even different language versions of articles have different information inside. I gave that link just to show that such fact was in history. Poland in 99% of cases just play a role of victim, I wanted to destroy such myth. Many sources talk about 60-80 thousands of people. Yes, they are Russian, but Poles use own sources constantly when they talk about Stalin crime in Katyn (20-25 thousands of Poles). Why we can't?
These people were executed because they died in Polish camps from hunger and bullying, disease simply a consequence of hunger. Poles wanted to have these people killed 100%. Polish leader (he was a dictator) at that time Marshal Pilsudski was a pure russophobe. By the way, to die slowly because of hunger is much worse than dying from a fast bullet in the neck, believe me.


For the whole 70 years of Soviet history in GULAG (General Directorate of labor camps, labor settlements and places of detention) died around 2.3 million of people (almost all in Stalinist period), 15 million prisoners in total. It terrible thing in our history, yes, but that our people went through it, not foreigners. I also not trying to justify commies, yes we had web of camps where people worked right up to the death. That not the death camps in nazi style, but absolutely nothing to be proud of too. But I don't understand your point, how the hell it can justify Polish marshall Pilsudski?


I don't hide nothing. Commies did many terrible things on the border line with total insanity: bloody civil war (for us it was like second WWI if look on the casualties), collectivization (creation of inefficient collective farms), Gulag, the Stalinist repressions, aggression and the absorption of other countries, a dead-end economic policies of commies, lack of freedom in the communist system, etc.
But foreigners sometimes have a bad habit of blaming the USSR in all own mistakes and sins. I talked already about Poland, let's look on some other "innocent lambs" which scream sometimes about "bad commie occupiers":
Romania - Hitler's ally in WWII
Hungary - Hitler's ally in WWII
Austria - in some sense Hitler's ally, fought for Third Reich. Hitler's troops were greeted with flowers and shouts of joy.
Czechoslovakia - never resisted to nazi occupation, moreover played a role of military factory of the Third Reich, build 1/3 of tanks for nazis of perfect quality for the whole war, self-propelled artillery, armored troop-carriers etc...
Sweden - supplied Hitler by iron ore.
Pro-Hitler policy of Britain and France before the WWII + ignominious Treaty of Versailles in 1918 which provoked Germany again on aggression. In accordance with this agreement, Germany was obliged to pay payments to Britain and France right up to the 1990 year. This is ridiculous, what their heads thought about?


I thought that it would be a good idea to make sure I understand your points; are you actually saying that we can't be sure of what happened in the Katyn Forest?

Also, are you trying to put Pilduski and Stalin in the same discussion?

LeBrok
17-02-11, 18:46
Anton, please lay of Soviet history books. We all know how honest and true they were.
All you doing now is demonizing other countries just to excuse Russian crimes. It doesn't work this way. Even worse, you ridicule people or nations, who demand justice and apology for horrendous Soviet years, murders, genocides and lost decades.
For last 200 years Poland was about 160 years under Russian occupation. Now, should I get you a list of crimes Russian committed during this long time as a ruler? Or you just stop comparing and washing off Russian hands, just because in Soviet history books it was suggested that Poles "executed" Russian POWs?

Anton, Bear's den
17-02-11, 20:23
Anton, please lay of Soviet history books. We all know how honest and true they were
Yeah, I am probably should take Canadian or American books to really realize the whole "depth of democracy": that it's Americans did the whole work in WWII, that brave Canadians took Berlin, that Germans & Russians it's all about genocides of other nations and .... such total "democratization".


All you doing now is demonizing other countries just to excuse Russian crimes. It doesn't work this way. Even worse, you ridicule people or nations, who demand justice and apology for horrendous Soviet years, murders, genocides and lost decades. Ohh Really??? Damn, I thought on the contrary that I recognized crimes of the past. Or maybe you just need some eyeglasses for reading?
They already don't demand nothing, no justice, no apology. All in what interested different russophobes of Eastern Europe is continuation of the existing status quo the sense of which in non-stop hating of Russia regardless from what we recognize or not, it's their bread. Nice example is reaction of Polish politicians after crash of the presidential plane at Smolensk with Polish elite. Immediately thereafter, the charges fell to Russia that it is supposedly Russian blame for the fact that the plane crashed. That Russians killed survived passengers, that it's Russian crafty plan etc... from my point of view such people are sick, they need to be treated in hospital. And you LeBrok defend and trying to justify the behavior of such people by events which happened 70 years ago or older.
Also, that all remind me a one-way road. I did not deny Soviet crimes, just drew attention to the fact that others are not angels too, but for LeBrok it's already enough to blame me in covering of dictators. Such a hypocritical and double standard position. I must say that you buddy have pretty strange vision of freedom of speech/opinion from my point of view.
Write me a list of all Russian crimes & genocides from day of Russia's foundation in 962 year, I will sign.
LeBrok by the way, do you heard about our tsar of XVI century Ivan IV the Terrible? That man loved to torture people in his dungeon very much (he actually enjoyed it) and in the same time always prayed for forgiveness of god because of it (he was extremely religious). Such sick bastard: sinned and repented, sinned and repented, sinned and repented, sinned and repented... lol :laughing:

Regulus
17-02-11, 21:00
Yeah, I am probably should take Canadian or American books to really realize the whole "depth of democracy": that it's Americans did the whole work in WWII, that brave Canadians took Berlin, that Germans & Russians it's all about genocides of other nations and .... such total "democratization".

.

No one on this side thinks that Americans, Canadians, and Brits did all of the work, nor did they ever. It does seem, though, that Russians are more likely to think that they in fact did do so.

The losses that the Soviet Union endured are almost beyond measure. That fact does not make it OK for them to run around using their own name for the war, a fact that by its very existence implies that they were in it alone.

There of course is a tremendous amount of room to debate what caused the decision to halt the movement from the West at the Elbe. I will not waste anyone's time bringing up facts, proofs, or possible evidence, but it is clear that taking Berlin was not something that only the Soviets could have done.

LeBrok
18-02-11, 03:14
Anton, my point always was about fair treatment of even the smallest countries, fair and respectful treatment of us on Eupedia. You came with strong intensions of building alliance with strong ones, like Germany and France, disregarding all other European countries. You didn't get sympathetic ear from German members here at all, plus you didn't care for friends from other countries. I hope it will give you something to contemplate about for a while.

I'm sure you're a decent guy, just a bit lost growing up surrounded in history of powerful Russia. It's very tempting and hard to resist for Russians, but absolutely unnecessary in today’s world. Russia and others are better off when they work together within today's similar economic system and political one.
Show the rest of us a way, and lead by an example, build great things, take care of smaller nations,...just like Germans do today. You will gain friends, respect and admiration, like Germans did. That's a new way Anton, new Europe.

If you care for United Europe you are welcome to join. You know the rules.

iapodos
18-02-11, 17:43
If you care for United Europe you are welcome to join. You know the rules.

Yes, Anton, sell your soul and enter...

Anton, Bear's den
18-02-11, 18:20
Anton, my point always was about fair treatment of even the smallest countries, fair and respectful treatment of us on Eupedia. You came with strong intensions of building alliance with strong ones, like Germany and France, disregarding all other European countries.
:thinking: I never talked that I don't like or disrespect small countries. I just said that with several European countries Russia has/had constant problems which based on populist politicians which use old grievances in own sake, instead as to cooperate and solve them completely. Fortunately, the situation is changing. Poland already not so emotional after last presidential elections and shows more pragmatism.
http://wyborcza.pl/1,75515,8853113,Rozmowa_swietej_Polski_ze_swieta_R osja.html?as=1&startsz=x
http://www.rp.pl/artykul/11,574852.html
Baltic countries very slowly, but start to thaw.
http://www2.la.lv/lat/latvijas_avize/jaunakaja_numura/redakcijas.viesis/?doc=94124
http://www.ir.lv/2010/12/22/zatlers-maskava
http://www.ilpost.it/2010/12/19/rapporti-russia-lettonia/
http://chas-daily.com/win/2011/02/10/l_004.html?r=30&
With Finland we have high-speed rail link, Helsinki-St Petersburg.
http://inotv.rt.com/2010-12-13/Allegro-svyazal-dve-severnie-stolici
http://www.helsinkitimes.fi/htimes/domestic-news/general/10289-finland-sets-conditions-for-visa-free-travel-agreement-with-russia-.html

You comrade probably missed the whole point of that topic, that "Weimar Triangle" is not aimed to supress small countries or something, it just form of cooperation among main European countries. Moreover Poland is a member of it too already. Paris-Berlin-Warsaw - and + Moscow, it's already "Weimar rectangle" or something.
http://wyborcza.pl/1,75478,9075468,Po_co_nam_reanimacja_Trojkata_Weim arskiego.html
It also initiative of France and Germany, not Russia. Target probably is further integration and coordination of views. There is absolutely nothing dangerous for small countries. On the contrary I think it pushes the common European project further strongly.


It's very tempting and hard to resist for Russians, but absolutely unnecessary in today’s world. Russia and others are better off when they work together within today's similar economic system and political one.
Agree, but we can't love and respect those who hate us. Only on the basis of reciprocity.

Anton, Bear's den
19-02-11, 23:14
Yes, Anton, sell your soul and enter...

Relax man, your government "already sold it's soul" to EU
http://www.politika.rs/rubrike/Sta-da-se-radi/Parada-evrozahteva.sr.html
even more
http://www.politika.rs/rubrike/Politika/Srbija-izmedju-neutralnosti-i-atlantskih-integracija.lt.html
http://www.danas.rs/danasrs/dijalog/srbija_i_nato.46.html?news_id=209624
If honestly, I think NATO is dead organisation, I don't understand why Serbian government of Tadić even think about membership there.


There of course is a tremendous amount of room to debate what caused the decision to halt the movement from the West at the Elbe. I will not waste anyone's time bringing up facts, proofs, or possible evidence, but it is clear that taking Berlin was not something that only the Soviets could have done.

That exactly what I am talking about. I already met several Americans which with all seriousness and frankly thought that USA ALONE won in WWII. I am was shocked a little bit. Probably they just too many times watched "save private Ryan" lol

Regulus
20-02-11, 00:54
Relax man, your government "already sold it's soul" to EU
http://www.politika.rs/rubrike/Sta-da-se-radi/Parada-evrozahteva.sr.html
even more
http://www.politika.rs/rubrike/Politika/Srbija-izmedju-neutralnosti-i-atlantskih-integracija.lt.html
http://www.danas.rs/danasrs/dijalog/srbija_i_nato.46.html?news_id=209624
If honestly, I think NATO is dead organisation, I don't understand why Serbian government of Tadić even think about membership there.


That exactly what I am talking about. I already met several Americans which with all seriousness and frankly thought that USA ALONE won in WWII. I am was shocked a little bit. Probably they just too many times watched "save private Ryan" lol

Then it appears that you, without any fault of your own, met several idiots who failed their middle and high school history classes.


Also, you quoted the wrong part of my post to answer me.

iapodos
20-02-11, 01:16
Relax man, your government "already sold it's soul" to EU

If honestly, I think NATO is dead organisation, I don't understand why Serbian government of Tadić even think about membership there.


I also don't understand but who can understand idiotic serbian government.
Real Serbs will never sell their souls, and this puppet government will not last for long. Till the end of this year I suppose.

Anton, Bear's den
20-02-11, 11:41
Then it appears that you, without any fault of your own, met several idiots who failed their middle and high school history classes.


Also, you quoted the wrong part of my post to answer me.

:laughing: I don't made conclusions hahahaha I know that USA have more than 500 nations inside and from my experience of communicating with the Americans I know that there is huge plurality of views. In general, for me is very difficult to perceive USA as something unified/monolithic.
But several features of American mentality I anyway have noticed already. For example, watch that video of Reagan's campaign commercials from 1984 (probably the most popular president in USA history, is not it?).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NpwdcmjBgNA
I see funny alternatives/dilemma of American consciousness: Bear is axis of evil or hand pet hahahahaha absolutely no halftones, such funny mentality. Why I am not surprised that LeBrok (Canadians are the same as Americans) wishes to re-write our history books? hahahaha:lmao:

LeBrok
20-02-11, 18:53
You just love ridiculing others, if only for the sake of ridiculing. You can't help, can you?
Maybe some self criticism now. It shouldn't be difficult knowing how messed up Russia was for a very ling time.

Was you job a "provocateur" in KGB department?

Anton, Bear's den
20-02-11, 21:53
You just love ridiculing others, if only for the sake of ridiculing. You can't help, can you?
You know, we damn commie infidels are never changing, only grave can fix us :banghead:. Don't understand second sentence, you need some help? :)


Maybe some self criticism now. It shouldn't be difficult knowing how messed up Russia was for a very ling time.
Funny to hear it from descendants of the colonists which not so long ago hunted on redskin indians like on the wild animals, took their lands by force and placed them all in isolated reservation camps for slow extinction :innocent:.
But don't worry, this does not mean that I don't like Canucks :lover:.


Was you job a "provocateur" in KGB department? Yeah, Mr.Putin is behind my back right now, tells what to write. OMG, KGB is disbanded a long time ago and me is only 20 years old :laughing:

:17:

LeBrok
20-02-11, 22:49
How about changing your tone? Less ridiculing and more dialogue and respect for others?
How about response to iapodos who craves attention of big Russian bear? I believe we talked about ignoring the small ones. Attitude, attitude, attitude.

Regulus
20-02-11, 23:48
[QUOTE=Yeah, Mr.Putin is behind my back right now, tells what to write. OMG, KGB is disbanded a long time ago and me is only 20 years old :laughing:

:17:[/QUOTE]


Ah yes, now I understand how you have met your several Americans who were not aware about Russia's contributions to WWII - how could you not have met them in your 20 long years of life?

Why, in five or six years, you will probably know more than I do about what Americans think!

Regulus
20-02-11, 23:53
Ah yes, now I understand how you have met your several Americans who were not aware about Russia's contributions to WWII - how could you not have met them in your 20 long years of life?

Why, in five or six years, you will probably know more than I do about what Americans think!


Maybe my mood is up from watching the cult classic "Red Dawn" last night!

The acting is horrible, but the storyline brings ones thoughts right back to the 80!:embarassed:

Anton, Bear's den
22-02-11, 13:32
How about changing your tone? Less ridiculing and more dialogue and respect for others?
hahaha And what is wrong with my tone, comrade? I so much respect Canada that you simply can't realise it. Especially respect for the Canadian hockey team :grin:. I ridicule for my own pleasure, not to offend anybody. You Canucks don't like to laugh?


How about response to iapodos who craves attention of big Russian bear?
Don't know about "crave of attention", but looks like your conversation with him went into deadlock. Iapodos don't like NATO because this military block bombed his country in 1999 while NATO supporters trying to lay all the blame on the Serbs. I recommend to look on the root of the problem. We have saying in Russia "No smoke without fire".
From 1918 to 1945 there was a "The Kingdom of Serbs, Croats and Slovenes".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Slovenes,_Croats_and_Serbs
That kingdom was created with help of Entente (France and Britain after WWI, probably to resist possible Austrian/German & Turkish influence in the future on the Balkans). Later, "Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia" was created by Josip Broz Tito after WWII (ethnically he was Croat-Slovenian).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josip_Broz_Tito
Josip Broz Tito was leader of Yugoslavia from 1945-1980 and had great respect among nations which lived inside of Yugoslavia. But when he died in 1980 there started the growth of separatist sentiments. Fact is that, Josip Broz Tito supported the politic of further Albanisation in Kosovo, invited the Albanians to live there to show that in "socialist federal Yugoslavia, all nations can live in peace" probably. He maybe even did not think what consequences this may entail.
The ethnic composition of Kosovo and Metohija from year to year, in %:
Year-Albanians-Serbs-Others in %
1871-32-64-4
1948-68-27-5
1971-74-21-5
1981-77-15-8
1991-82-11-7
2000-88-7-5
2007-92-5-3
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D0%BE%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%BE_%D0%B8_%D0%9C %D0%B5%D1%82%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%B8%D1%8F#.D0.9D.D0.B0. D1.81.D0.B5.D0.BB.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.B8.D0.B5

When Tito died, and Serbs met with the growth of separatist currents, they started to repress it in old style. But it can help only when few want to separate, unfortunately that not in case of Yugoslavia. Starting from late 80s/early 90s Yugoslavia drowned in blood and this attracted the attention of "different lovers of forced arse democratization" (such like USA & NATO) which bombed Serbians into the ground. Such a sad story.


I believe we talked about ignoring the small ones. Attitude, attitude, attitude.
For me is interesting to hear opinions of "small ones". But I have no idea why they keep silence. Probably have nothing to say or something...


Maybe my mood is up from watching the cult classic "Red Dawn" last night!

The acting is horrible, but the storyline brings ones thoughts right back to the 80!:embarassed:
I watched that movie, more delusional interpretation of communist invasion into US is difficult to imagine. Goddamn, my comrades in that movie looks like latino-arabians or something, and their accent is so terrifically bad that I think creators of the movie invented "second Russian language". I wached it like a comedy:lmao:

Regulus
22-02-11, 16:27
hahaha
I watched that movie, more delusional interpretation of communist invasion into US is difficult to imagine. Goddamn, my comrades in that movie looks like latino-arabians or something, and their accent is so terrifically bad that I think creators of the movie invented "second Russian language". I wached it like a comedy:lmao:

The Spanish in the movie is not so great either. It is spoken in a manner that makes English subtitles almost completely unnecessary for a person that took a single semester of Spanish I. Did the Soviet Union make a reverse movie? If they did I would want to see it.

Hey, movies are to entertain, so why not enjoy the ride?


The only point that I would make was that one would have had to either read the all of the news on a regular basis during that time, or read a detailed history of that period to get even the slightest 'feel' for what events would have come together to make that scenario happen. The opening prologue sets the mood for the whole movie:

Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years…

Labor and food riots in Poland. Soviet troops invade…

Cuba and Nicaragua reach troop strength goals of 500,000.
El Salvador and Honduras fall…

Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament.
Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil…

Mexico plunged into revolution…

NATO dissolves.
United States stands alone.

I remember the massive street demonstrations against Reagan's move to put cruise missiles in Europe. Things were looking really ugly for a while. I myself have felt that the Soviet Union was governed by people who were culturally western and therefore were, ultimately, unlikely to actually trigger a war with the US.

Don’t forget that the movie is also slightly anti-US government too. Note that the Nicaraguan Captain at one point orders his troops to go to the locations from which firearms are sold and collect all of the Bureau of Tobacco and Firearms’ firearms transaction form 4473. Doing so would provide them with information as to what persons have purchased firearms and their addresses. In this manner they could go to the residences that confiscate the weapons, thereby reducing the amount of firearms available to any resistance.

You think you're tough for eating beans every day? There's half a million scarecrows in Denver who'd give anything for one mouthful of what you got. They've been under siege for about three months. They live on rats and sawdust bread and sometimes... on each other. At night, the pyres for the dead light up the sky. It's medieval.
- The Colonel, Red Dawn

Eerie, isn’t it? The take Leningrad’s WWII scenario and replace it with Denver, Colorado.

Anton, Bear's den
23-02-11, 21:48
Did the Soviet Union make a reverse movie? If they did I would want to see it.
No, communists never created such kind of movies. Our culture a little bit different from American, communists usually created movies about WWII, about village life (lol), love, films based on classical books (Sherlock Holmes, for example), historical etc...


Hey, movies are to entertain, so why not enjoy the ride?
That exactly what I doing

But story of "Red Dawn" is extremely ridiculous:
"Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years…"
That not the reason to attack anybody, rather the contrary.

"Labor and food riots in Poland. Soviet troops invade"
Ok, if Poles rebelled then Soviets had not choice in conditions of the Cold War, only to suppress a rebellion. But that have nothing to do with US.

"Cuba and Nicaragua reach troop strength goals of 500,000.
El Salvador and Honduras fall…"
:lmao:Such a "strong force" :laughing:. Cuba is useful only because it very close to US, good platform for missiles.

"Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament.
Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil…"
In such case USA relocate nukes to Britain = still impossible to invade + submarines with missiles and bombers...

"Mexico plunged into revolution..."
But that does not mean that my comrades could use mexican soil for invasion.

"NATO dissolves.
United States stands alone."
Even so, there is absolutely no sense to send army to faraway America to counquer it or something, it even difficult to imagine. Differences were ideological on 90%, other 10% is classic rivalry which exist and today.

In case of real war, communists could send the horde which they had on the western borders of Warsaw pact to destroy western Europe. In 70s there was concentrated around 20000 of tanks prepared for attack and 5 million army in avant-garde (in total Soviet Union alone had 64000 of tanks), air force of Warsaw pact surpassed in number NATO air forces also (in Europe). Chances were pretty high.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee5Cq5P_DVU
But they never planned to send army in USA, communists planned to nuke it in case of war. Problem was that NATO could nuke us too. So war never happened.

Commies created huge empire, but lost everything because of inability to supply own population by consumer goods. One thing when you losing because of military force of enemy side, but to lose a war because the lack of jeans, beer and tomatoes in your shops??? lol... 100% morons.

Btw, Canadians are funny, found one video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CidsvjVOseI
According to it: Russians are corrupted vodka communists with lack of freedom, Americans are fat warmongers which lie all the time and only Canucks are nice :laughing:

Regulus
23-02-11, 22:21
No, communists never created such kind of movies. Our culture a little bit different from American, communists usually created movies about WWII, about village life (lol), love, films based on classical books (Sherlock Holmes, for example), historical etc...


That exactly what I doing

But story of "Red Dawn" is extremely ridiculous:
"Soviet Union suffers worst wheat harvest in 55 years…"
That not the reason to attack anybody, rather the contrary.

"Labor and food riots in Poland. Soviet troops invade"
Ok, if Poles rebelled then Soviets had not choice in conditions of the Cold War, only to suppress a rebellion. But that have nothing to do with US.

"Cuba and Nicaragua reach troop strength goals of 500,000.
El Salvador and Honduras fall…"
:lmao:Such a "strong force" :laughing:. Cuba is useful only because it very close to US, good platform for missiles.

"Greens Party gains control of West German Parliament.
Demands withdrawal of nuclear weapons from European soil…"
In such case USA relocate nukes to Britain = still impossible to invade + submarines with missiles and bombers...

"Mexico plunged into revolution..."
But that does not mean that my comrades could use mexican soil for invasion.

"NATO dissolves.
United States stands alone."
Even so, there is absolutely no sense to send army to faraway America to counquer it or something, it even difficult to imagine. Differences were ideological on 90%, other 10% is classic rivalry which exist and today.

In case of real war, communists could send the horde which they had on the western borders of Warsaw pact to destroy western Europe. In 70s there was concentrated around 20000 of tanks prepared for attack and 5 million army in avant-garde (in total Soviet Union alone had 64000 of tanks), air force of Warsaw pact surpassed in number NATO air forces also (in Europe). Chances were pretty high.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ee5Cq5P_DVU
But they never planned to send army in USA, communists planned to nuke it in case of war. Problem was that NATO could nuke us too. So war never happened.

Commies created huge empire, but lost everything because of inability to supply own population by consumer goods. One thing when you losing because of military force of enemy side, but to lose a war because the lack of jeans, beer and tomatoes in your shops??? lol... 100% morons.

Btw, Canadians are funny, found one video
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CidsvjVOseI
According to it: Russians are corrupted vodka communists with lack of freedom, Americans are fat warmongers which lie all the time and only Canucks are nice :laughing:




I'm quite amused by all the efforts made to try to disprove whether the events could ever have happened.
Of course Western Europe was a more likely target at the time.

I clearly have taken you off-topic. Your description of the events, trying to show that in reality all of them would have had to cause something other than an invasion, is nothing more than a Sophist-type argument.