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G2aNetherlands
22-10-10, 11:31
I did a test at FTDNA and my Y-DNA haplogroup turns out to be G2a.

Of course I search now the web to learn when the G2a people first entered Europe. And to my surprise the answers very:
1) Neolithic immigrants
2) no, it first entered with the bronze age
3) no, it are Alans in the early middle ages who raided western Europe
4) no, the distribution in western Europe follows the Roman frontier. It was carried here by Roman soldiers from the east.

And then I also read the book Deep Ancestry by an expert in the field Spencer Wells. According to him G2a entered Europe around 15.000-10.000 BC and when the last Ice Age came the R1b and G2a people moved south and after the ice melted repopulated Europe. So according to him the G2a western Europeans are descendants in the male line from Paleolithic Europeans. So way before the Neolithic.

Since Spencer Wells studied this and is a doctor in this field, shouldn't we believe him? But his theory is not mentioned often. See page 210/1 of his book.

willy
22-10-10, 14:35
I did a test at FTDNA and my Y-DNA haplogroup turns out to be G2a.

Of course I search now the web to learn when the G2a people first entered Europe. And to my surprise the answers very:
1) Neolithic immigrants
2) no, it first entered with the bronze age
3) no, it are Alans in the early middle ages who raided western Europe
4) no, the distribution in western Europe follows the Roman frontier. It was carried here by Roman soldiers from the east.

And then I also read the book Deep Ancestry by an expert in the field Spencer Wells. According to him G2a entered Europe around 15.000-10.000 BC and when the last Ice Age came the R1b and G2a people moved south and after the ice melted repopulated Europe. So according to him the G2a western Europeans are descendants in the male line from Paleolithic Europeans. So way before the Neolithic.

Since Spencer Wells studied this and is a doctor in this field, shouldn't we believe him? But his theory is not mentioned often. See page 210/1 of his book.

i think you are probably G2a3b1 as some people in Netherlands so iGENEA puts G2a3b1 in the Germans or Germanic Tribes from central Europe who moved to the north . And always iGENEA says G2a3b1 is 4500 years old who is matching to the Indo European expansion with the bronze age so ... ??

G2aNetherlands
22-10-10, 14:48
Thanks. Which Germanic tribes migrated from South to North? Most I know of migrated from North to South (Franks, Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Burgundians,...). So my direct male forebears come from a tribe which went North? Is there an example of such a tribe?

willy
22-10-10, 14:54
Thanks. Which Germanic tribes migrated from South to North? Most I know of migrated from North to South (Franks, Goths, Vandals, Lombards, Burgundians,...). So my direct male forebears come from a tribe which went North? Is there an example of such a tribe?
Yes the Franks is a good example as you know Luis XVI the last King of France was probably G2a3b1 so his lineage comes from Netherlands the Frankish homeland . Also some G2a3b1 were found in a Frank burial in Bavaria

Melusine
22-10-10, 17:09
Hi G2a Netherlands,

Since you have done your y-dna test with FTDNA. You can go into your personal account and you will see what subclade of G2a you belong too.

Then Google: haplogroup G phylogentic tree, and then go to ISOGG tree. Your subclade will appear in "descending order". This will give you an approximate timeline to when your subclade "split" from the previous subclade.

Our G haplogroup "split/seperated" from HG F about 10,000 to 15,000 years ago according to most geneticists. The descending order from oldest to youngest is,. G Oldest, , G1, G1* , and then it moves furtherdown (younger) to G2a etc. .For instance according to my father's subclade G2a31b1a we "split" from G2a3b1a1 about 2,500 years ago.

If your own subclade is above my number your ancestors lived "somewhere" more than 2,500-3000 years ago. If your subclade is "downstream" then you have to research your subclade to see when they split from the previous subclade for deep ancestral origins.

Melusine

Melusine
22-10-10, 19:10
Correction to my paternal y-dna.

Our subclade is G2a3b1a1A we split from G2a2b1a1.

Melusine

Haganus
23-10-10, 00:12
I cannot believe that the Dutch haplogroup G came from the Allans.
Never the Allans arrived in the Netherlands.

Haplogroup G is rather frequent on the ancient island of Urk. The inhabitants
are fishermen who interbred with each others during many centuries.
They are strictly calvistic and closed. Real Germanics! Dark eyes and dark
hair are very rare, but 50% of the population have dair hair with blue
eyes. I suppose real Aurignac/Bruenn survivors.

Maciamo
23-10-10, 09:04
I did a test at FTDNA and my Y-DNA haplogroup turns out to be G2a.

Of course I search now the web to learn when the G2a people first entered Europe. And to my surprise the answers very:
1) Neolithic immigrants
2) no, it first entered with the bronze age
3) no, it are Alans in the early middle ages who raided western Europe
4) no, the distribution in western Europe follows the Roman frontier. It was carried here by Roman soldiers from the east.

It all depends what subclade of G2a you are talking about. You can be pretty sure that over 95% of G2a in Europe arrived during the Neolithic or early Bronze Age.




And then I also read the book Deep Ancestry by an expert in the field Spencer Wells. According to him G2a entered Europe around 15.000-10.000 BC and when the last Ice Age came the R1b and G2a people moved south and after the ice melted repopulated Europe. So according to him the G2a western Europeans are descendants in the male line from Paleolithic Europeans. So way before the Neolithic.

Since Spencer Wells studied this and is a doctor in this field, shouldn't we believe him? But his theory is not mentioned often. See page 210/1 of his book.

Having a degree from Harvard doesn't matter much in the budding field of population genetics. There is hardly any past knowledge to acquire. All opinions are built on the progressive flow of recent data, once analytical abilities and knowledge of (pre)history. 10 years ago virtually nothing was known about haplogroups. No later than 3 years ago, the "scientific establishment" were still convinced that R1b lineages descended from the Paleolithic Europeans (Cro-Magnon), who repopulated Europe from the Franco-Cantabrian refuge after the last Ice Age. This also included Spencer Wells.

I was one of the first to realise that R1b could not have originated in Western Europe, but more probably in central Asia, while R1b1b could have spread from the Caucasus and Black Sea region. Indeed, R1b1b2 probably only arrived in Western Europe during the early Bronze Age, with the Indo-European migrations. There are still many people out there who believe that R1b1b2 represents the Neolithic expansion from the Near East, which I think is absurd considering the low percentage of R1b in the Levant and in the Balkans (the two hotspots of Neolithic expansion).

It sounds like a foolish thing to say, from a famous geneticist and anthropologist like Spencer Wells, that G2a repopulated Europe from 15.000-10.000 BCE, when the majority of European G2 lineages belong to the G2a3b1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G2a3b1_%28Y-DNA%29) subclade, which surely isn't that old.

If G2a3 entered Europe during the Neolithic, it would have been through the southern route, from Anatolia to Greece, Italy, France and Iberia. So much is obvious from the geographic distribution. The problem is the timing. Agriculture (see map (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25603)) reached Italy some 8000 years ago, and Britain about 6000 years ago. Recent STR calculations estimate G2a3 to be approximately 6000 years old and G2a3b1 about 5000 years old. Age estimation based on STR's is far from an exact science. It could be completely mistaken. But if it is more or less correct, then G2a3 could only have arrived with the Indo-European migration in the early Bronze Age. There is, generally speaking, a geographic correlation between G2a3 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#G) and R1b-P312/S116, especially the Gallo-Italic subclade R1b-U152/S28.

Maciamo
23-10-10, 09:38
i think you are probably G2a3b1 as some people in Netherlands so iGENEA puts G2a3b1 in the Germans or Germanic Tribes from central Europe who moved to the north . And always iGENEA says G2a3b1 is 4500 years old who is matching to the Indo European expansion with the bronze age so ... ??

Here is the distribution of G2a in Europe.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

It's obviously not Germanic. The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tène and Roman cultures, and is somewhat mirrored by the distribution of R1b-U152.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/U152-Myres.jpg

G2aNetherlands
23-10-10, 10:01
It sounds like a foolish thing to say, from a famous geneticist and anthropologist like Spencer Wells, that G2a repopulated Europe from 15.000-10.000 BCE, when the majority of European G2 lineages belong to the G2a3b subclade, which surely isn't that old.


Thanks a lot for all your information. One thing is not yet clear however.

Is this not possible then:
G2a entered Europe in paleolithic, but indeed the subclade G2a3b is more recent but originated in Europe itself! Or is the problem with that explanation that it won't explain why the huge majority in Europe is G2a3b (because if it did come into being here we would expect to see many non-G2a3b people (however still G2a people) living here)? The fact almost every G2a in Western Europe is G2a3b must necessarily mean G2a3b didn't come into being here, but was brought here by a clan carrying this Y-DNA? From which all G2a3b are descendants? Then indeed a paleolithic migration of my direct male-line forebears to Europe is indeed out of the question.

Thanks again. lets hope a lot of progress in this field is being made the coming years. It certainly is a very interesting topic.

willy
23-10-10, 22:46
join ftdna project G

Melusine
23-10-10, 23:24
To all G-men and their "official contact person".

Google: ftdna haplogroup y-dna haplogroup G project.

This is the best forum for haplgroup G's , there are about 2,000 members (all subclades ) world wide.

Contact the administrator as to how to "join". Your results MUST be posted in a Public website such as y-search to join this G group. If you have tested with a company other than FTDNA the group administrator will advise you how to post your G results in order to join.

IF you do not belong to hg G, you are not allowed to join.

You will learn the very latest news and information about hg G and it's subclades . The group is "sanctioned by FTDNA".

Melusine

Eochaidh
24-10-10, 08:35
Here is the distribution of G2a in Europe.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

It's obviously not Germanic. The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tène and Roman cultures, and is somewhat mirrored by the distribution of R1b-U152.I am not G2a myself, but am struck by this map. The highest concentration, about 30%, is found in the Caucasus region, as so many other interesting things are. I wonder if there is anyplace, perhaps further east and off the map, where G2a is a majority haplogroup. These gradations are unusually fine, so it seems fairly uncommon. It is an interesting group, in any case, e.g. why Sardinia?

Maciamo
24-10-10, 08:50
Thanks a lot for all your information. One thing is not yet clear however.

Is this not possible then:
G2a entered Europe in paleolithic, but indeed the subclade G2a3b is more recent but originated in Europe itself! Or is the problem with that explanation that it won't explain why the huge majority in Europe is G2a3b (because if it did come into being here we would expect to see many non-G2a3b people (however still G2a people) living here)? The fact almost every G2a in Western Europe is G2a3b must necessarily mean G2a3b didn't come into being here, but was brought here by a clan carrying this Y-DNA? From which all G2a3b are descendants? Then indeed a paleolithic migration of my direct male-line forebears to Europe is indeed out of the question.

Thanks again. lets hope a lot of progress in this field is being made the coming years. It certainly is a very interesting topic.

Very, very unlikely that G2a entered Europe during the Paleolithic. The highest density of G2a in the world is found in the Caucasus. The Caucasus and Anatolia also have the greatest genetic diversity of G2a.

Maciamo
24-10-10, 08:53
I am not G2a myself, but am struck by this map. The highest concentration, about 30%, is found in the Caucasus region, as so many other interesting things are. I wonder if there is anyplace, perhaps further east and off the map, where G2a is a majority haplogroup. These gradations are unusually fine, so it seems fairly uncommon. It is an interesting group, in any case, e.g. why Sardinia?

Haplogroup G is also common in Iran and Afganistan and found at least as far as the Indian subcontinent. However the eastern variety is typically G1 (G2a is sometimes found, but at very low frequencies).

In the Levant, the most common form of G is G2c (found mostly in people of Jewish descent).

G2b also exists, but AFAIK is restricted to a few lineages in Turkey.

Because G1 peaks in Iran, G2a1 in the Caucasus, G2b in Anatolia and G2c in the Levant, it is hard to believe that G2a3 could have originated anywhere else but in this region, probably in Anatolia.

Haganus
24-10-10, 13:44
But how can you explain that the haplogroup G is rather frequent on the
fishermen island of Urk in the IJsselmeer in the Netherlands? The inhabitants
are pure descendants of the ancient Dutchmen, in-breeding and 85% have light eyes, but more than 50% have dark hair. I suppose that they are mostly Borreby and Bruenn/Aurignac descendants. They cannot have Alanic ancestors.

willy
24-10-10, 21:19
But how can you explain that the haplogroup G is rather frequent on the
fishermen island of Urk in the IJsselmeer in the Netherlands? The inhabitants
are pure descendants of the ancient Dutchmen, in-breeding and 85% have light eyes, but more than 50% have dark hair. I suppose that they are mostly Borreby and Bruenn/Aurignac descendants. They cannot have Alanic ancestors.

We speak about G2a3b1 who is 4500 years old it means INDO EUROPEAN migration (iGENEA) not neolithic or paleolithic as R1b1b2 atlantic modal who is a real native of West Europe . G2a3b1 in the West is classified in a Germanic component by iGENEA probably from some Germanic tribes of central Europe who came to the North as the Franks .

Maciamo
26-10-10, 12:18
We speak about G2a3b1 who is 4500 years old it means INDO EUROPEAN migration (iGENEA) not neolithic or paleolithic as R1b1b2 atlantic modal who is a real native of West Europe . G2a3b1 in the West is classified in a Germanic component by iGENEA probably from some Germanic tribes of central Europe who came to the North as the Franks .

Why ? G2a3b1 could well have evolved from the G2a3 that settled in Europe during the Neolithic. 4500 years old doesn't mean that it came to Europe 4500 years ago, merely that G2a3b1 people share a common ancestor who lived 4500 years ago. What makes you think that this ancestor didn't already live in Europe ? Most G2a3b1 are European.

So far there is only a handful of G2a3b1 found in India, and none in Central Asia or Xinjiang to my knowledge (contrarily to R1b1b2, which is everywhere where the Indo-Europeans settled). These Indian G2a3b1 could well be the descendants of Greeks, Romans or other European traders, soldiers or adventurers.

So far, according to FTDNA's haplogroup G project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/G-YDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults), 99% of G2a3b1 are European.

willy
26-10-10, 15:51
Why ? G2a3b1 could well have evolved from the G2a3 that settled in Europe during the Neolithic. 4500 years old doesn't mean that it came to Europe 4500 years ago, merely that G2a3b1 people share a common ancestor who lived 4500 years ago. What makes you think that this ancestor didn't already live in Europe ? Most G2a3b1 are European.

So far there is only a handful of G2a3b1 found in India, and none in Central Asia or Xinjiang to my knowledge (contrarily to R1b1b2, which is everywhere where the Indo-Europeans settled). These Indian G2a3b1 could well be the descendants of Greeks, Romans or other European traders, soldiers or adventurers.

So far, according to FTDNA's haplogroup G project (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/G-YDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults), 99% of G2a3b1 are European.

The FTDNA G project had recently erase the Caucasus G2a3b1 cluster because the Europeans belong to the same subclades .If G2a3b1 comes from the G2a3 who was In Europe during the neolithic why there is no more G2a3 still in Europe ? why these few people G2a3 supposed to be from the European Neolithic had no time to make a large G2a3b1 population in Europe as R1b1b2 Atlantic modal ? The neolithic period is known to be an great period for a very large demographic expansion of the Europeans (mostly R1b1b2) so why G2a3b1 is few ? there is no reason only a recent migration during the bronze age could explain it .


(http://www.jogg.info/31/athey.pdf)

Maciamo
26-10-10, 17:56
The FTDNA G project had recently erase the Caucasus G2a3b1 cluster because the Europeans belong to the same subclades .If G2a3b1 comes from the G2a3 who was In Europe during the neolithic why there is no more G2a3 still in Europe ? why these few people G2a3 supposed to be from the European Neolithic had no time to make a large G2a3b1 group in Europe as R1b1b2 ? The neolithic period is known to be an great period for the demographic expansion of the Europeans so why G2a3b1 is few ? there is no reason only a recent migration during the bronze age .


(http://www.jogg.info/31/athey.pdf)



If your remember my thread about metal-mining and stockbreeding (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25614) back in February, I was the one who put forth the idea that G2a3b1 could have been spread by the Indo-Europeans, along with R1b1b2.

To answer your question, I think that G2a3b1 was always a minority within the Indo-European speakers, which is why it remained this way. I think that the original Indo-European speakers were either R1b1b or R1a1a, or both, while G2a represented speakers of neighbouring Caucasian languages.

The way I imagine it is that some G2a3 left the Caucasus and Anatolia and spread agriculture and stockbreeding to southern Europe. On their way they merged with R1b1b peoples from northern Anatolia or from the north of the Caucasus, who then moved north to the Pontic steppes with cattle, sheep and some knowledge of agriculture. There they created a new patriarchal nomadic culture, that was taken over by their forest-steppe neighbours, the R1a1a people. Due to their nomadic nature, one common language spread all over the Eurasian steppe, Proto-Indo-European.

The south-western group, living on the shores of the Black Sea, was composed mostly of R1b1b2 people with a G2a3 and R1a1a minority (absorbed neighbours). This group was the fore-runner of the Italo-Celtic and Germanic branches of Indo-European languages. After acquiring horses from their R1a1a neighbours from the Volga-Ural region, they progressively left the Dnieper-Don region and moved towards the Danube valley. There they encountered fierce resistance from the well-established farming communities descending from the Linear Pottery Culture. So they pushed forward in search of less densely populated land. They found it in western and northern Europe, where agriculture was more rudimentary, populations less dense, and societies less technologically advanced. This is how R1b1b2a1 and G2a3b1 jumped from the Black Sea region to Western Europe.

The people that already lived in Western Europe belonged to haplogroups I1, I2a, I2b, the descendants of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers, but also E1b1b, T and J2 people who came during the Neolithic through the Danube basin and island-hopping their way around the Mediterranean. I think that it is possible that these E1b1b, T and J2 people also included some G2a people in their southern route (possibly from a later, independent migration). That's why I am open to the possibility of two different sources for G2a in Europe; one Neolithic and one Indo-European.

I noticed that there were a few G2a3b1 in European Russia, in addition to India. The nomadic Indo-European steppe culture being so mobile by nature, it would make sense that some people from the south-western group (R1b1b2 + G2a3b1) ended up in the north-eastern one (R1a1a), before this latter conquered Central and South Asia. This would explain why R1b1b2 and G2a3b1 are small minorities in Russia, and even more in Central and South Asia. Likewise, R1a1a people would have joined the south-western group, explaining why there is a small percentage of R1a1a in all predominantly R1b1b2a1 regions in Western Europe.

It is because of this close connections between these three Indo-European haplogroups that I listed them side by side in my table of Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml).

willy
26-10-10, 18:10
If your remember my thread about metal-mining and stockbreeding (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25614) back in February, I was the one who put forth the idea that G2a3b1 could have been spread by the Indo-Europeans, along with R1b1b2.

To answer your question, I think that G2a3b1 was always a minority within the Indo-European speakers, which is why it remained this way. I think that the original Indo-European speakers were either R1b1b or R1a1a, or both, while G2a represented speakers of neighbouring Caucasian languages.

The way I imagine it is that some G2a3 left the Caucasus and Anatolia and spread agriculture and stockbreeding to southern Europe. On their way they merged with R1b1b peoples from northern Anatolia or from the north of the Caucasus, who then moved north to the Pontic steppes with cattle, sheep and some knowledge of agriculture. There they created a new patriarchal nomadic culture, that was taken over by their forest-steppe neighbours, the R1a1a people. Due to their nomadic nature, one common language spread all over the Eurasian steppe, Proto-Indo-European.

The south-western group, living on the shores of the Black Sea, was composed mostly of R1b1b2 people with a G2a3 and R1a1a minority (absorbed neighbours). This group was the fore-runner of the Italo-Celtic and Germanic branches of Indo-European languages. After acquiring horses from their R1a1a neighbours from the Volga-Ural region, they progressively left the Dnieper-Don region and moved towards the Danube valley. There they encountered fierce resistance from the well-established farming communities descending from the Linear Pottery Culture. So they pushed forward in search of less densely populated land. They found it in western and northern Europe, where agriculture was more rudimentary, populations less dense, and societies less technologically advanced. This is how R1b1b2a1 and G2a3b1 jumped from the Black Sea region to Western Europe.

The people that already lived in Western Europe belonged to haplogroups I1, I2a, I2b, the descendants of Paleolithic hunter-gatherers, but also E1b1b, T and J2 people who came during the Neolithic through the Danube basin and island-hopping their way around the Mediterranean. I think that it is possible that these E1b1b, T and J2 people also included some G2a people in their southern route (possibly from a later, independent migration). That's why I am open to the possibility of two different sources for G2a in Europe; one Neolithic and one Indo-European.

I noticed that there were a few G2a3b1 in European Russia, in addition to India. The nomadic Indo-European steppe culture being so mobile by nature, it would make sense that some people from the south-western group (R1b1b2 + G2a3b1) ended up in the north-eastern one (R1a1a), before this latter conquered Central and South Asia. This would explain why R1b1b2 and G2a3b1 are small minorities in Russia, and even more in Central and South Asia. Likewise, R1a1a people would have joined the south-western group, explaining why there is a small percentage of R1a1a in all predominantly R1b1b2a1 regions in Western Europe.

It is because of this close connections between these three Indo-European haplogroups that I listed them side by side in my table of Y-DNA haplogroup frequencies (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml).

OK Thank you this is interesting .

how yes no 2
26-10-10, 23:44
Since, I am still not allowed to use URLs, imagine here images that Maciamo has posted...

It's hard to see correlation between spread of G2a and of R1b-U152...perhaps with idea that carriers of R1b-U152 came from Caucasus where they assimilated some G2a and than came via Asia minor, one can get fuzzy idea of R1b-U152 spreading it over Europe... but while this may distantly look as good theory for low percentage areas it certainly doesnot explain peaks... since those do not correlate at all with peaks of R1b-U152

how yes no 2
26-10-10, 23:54
The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tène and Roman cultures
I do not think it has anything to do with proto-Celtic and Celtic Hallstaat & La Tenne cultures... it is rather naive approach to take genetic distribution of frequencies of some haplogroup as it is today, and to try to match it to a population that has inhabited area thousands years ago.... that assumes there are no major movement of people and no wars...
but history teach us something different....
if one wants to make conclusions about distant past, he/she should better use variance of the haplogroup... because it remains present longer...even after the carriers of the group has mostly left the area...

how yes no 2
27-10-10, 00:22
But how can you explain that the haplogroup G is rather frequent on the
fishermen island of Urk in the IJsselmeer in the Netherlands? The inhabitants
are pure descendants of the ancient Dutchmen, in-breeding and 85% have light eyes, but more than 50% have dark hair. I suppose that they are mostly Borreby and Bruenn/Aurignac descendants. They cannot have Alanic ancestors.
why would fair hair exclude Alans? Alans were Iranians, which is same as aryans... according to nazi propaganda all fair hair people origin from aryans, that is Iranians...
how could they settle there... well, why not?
trajectory of Alans covers most of the Europe...
Alans were allies with germanic Suebi and Vandals... together they went as far a way as to Iberian peninsula...so why would it come as a suprise that they also might have settled in lands related to their germanic allies...
after all germanic and sarmatians did all believe to be all aryans, and thus of same blood...

perhaps your problem is that you look at iranians of today and do not see much fair hair in them... but it doesnot mean it was always like that... look at Greeks..it seems ancient Greeks were fair haired..but nowdays Greeks do not have not fair hair and tan... climate influences this, fair hair being recessive gen nfluences this, and migrations of people influence this...

willy
27-10-10, 01:40
why would fair hair exclude Alans? Alans were Iranians, which is same as aryans... according to nazi propaganda all fair hair people origin from aryans, that is Iranians...
how could they settle there... well, why not?
trajectory of Alans covers most of the Europe...
Alans were allies with germanic Suebi and Vandals... together they went as far a way as to Iberian peninsula...so why would it come as a suprise that they also might have settled in lands related to their germanic allies...
after all germanic and sarmatians did all believe to be all aryans, and thus of same blood...

perhaps your problem is that you look at iranians of today and do not see much fair hair in them... but it doesnot mean it was always like that... look at Greeks..it seems ancient Greeks were fair haired..but nowdays Greeks do not have not fair hair and tan... climate influences this, fair hair being recessive gen nfluences this, and migrations of people influence this...

Yes I agree with you so it could explain why G2a3b1 is few in Europe ? if it comes from the Alans ?

how yes no 2
27-10-10, 02:33
Yes I agree with you so it could explain why G2a3b1 is few in Europe ? if it comes from the Alans ?
finally, I have managed to collect enough posts (10) to be able to answer this question fairly...

Here is the distribution of G2a in Europe.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif
It's obviously not Germanic. The concentration around the Alps and the Latium rather remind of the Hallstatt-La Tene and Roman cultures, and is somewhat mirrored by the distribution of R1b-U152.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/U152-Myres.jpg
as I said It's hard to see correlation there...it doesnot even explain low percentage areas, and it certainly does not explain the peaks...
peaks of G2a they are easily explained by the spread of some genetically quite recent historical populations ...
keep in mind that I do not say those populations were only G2a, but rather that G2a was strong in them...

Etruscans (who called themselves Raseni) directly explain the peak in Italy and partly the one in Sardinia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Etruscan_civilization_map.png/493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png

Confronted with expansion of more warlike tribes, Etruscans have eventually migrated northwards into Alps to region of Raetia (those who remained were assimilated by Celts, Romans and others and have eventually moved south during the barbaric incursions into Roman empire including Gotic ones... which places current distribution of G2a in Italy somewhat more south than Etruscans were... but such rather small movements of populations in front of very threatening invaders are very common point...)..

confirmation for etruscan origin of Raetians one finds in history, language and genetics... linguistically, raetic language is considered to origin from etruscan... genetically proof is spread of G2a in areas of both Etruscan and Raetian settlements... historically proof is the following:


In his Natural History (1st century AD), Pliny wrote about Alpine peoples:
“ adjoining these (the Noricans) are the Raeti and Vindelici. All are divided into a number of states.[1] The Raeti are believed to be people of Tuscan race[2] driven out by the Gauls; their leader was named Raetus.[3]


here is Raetia province of Roman empire..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/RomanEmpire_117.svg/800px-RomanEmpire_117.svg.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetian

thus peak in Alps is also explained with Etruscans...
and not with Hallstat-Latenne culture that yielded Celts who in fact were the reason number one for Etruscans to seek refuge in Alps...
Etruscans came to Europe via Asia minor...

peak in Greece is probably related to ancient Macedonians...
let me explain... Alexandar Macedonian did lot of conquest for very little time... the only way one small country as was ancient Macedonia could subjugate large areas as the ones of Iranian people, is in fact that he didnot wage much war on them..he was of same blood..iranian... so he came there as a king who wants to unite iranians... only that can explain his incredibly fast military conquest...

talking about Iranian origin of G2a leads us to last step in colouring map of Europe with distribution of G2a... this last step are Sarmatian (thus iranian ) tribe Alans... Descendents of Alans still live in Caucasus..their name is Ossetians.. they speak iranic language... their dominant haplogroup is G2a...
http://www.eva.mpg.de/genetics/pdf/Nasidze.AnHG.2004.pdf
this is how Alans moved through Europe in very zig-zag pattern:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg
together with Suebes and Vandals they have conquered Iberian peninsula...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Hispania_418_AD.PNG/300px-Hispania_418_AD.PNG
if you compare it with the distributions of G2a you will notice that Alans settlements on sides left significant genetic imprint while the middle part is fairly gone...this is quite normal since arriving Visigoths went through centrum pushing Alans and Vandals southwards into northern Africa... from there they conquered and settled Sardinia as you can see on this map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Europe_526.jpg/761px-Europe_526.jpg

willy
27-10-10, 02:36
OK TY this is clear

how yes no 2
27-10-10, 22:50
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif
As for Asia minor, it is most likely Hittites who carried this haplogroup...

if you compare maps you can see that peak in minor Asia matches exactly Hittite empire at its largest size..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2f/Hittite_Kingdom.png/800px-Hittite_Kingdom.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

to further convince you it was Hittites from whom Etruscans, Sarmatian Alans and ancient Macedonians origin from, let's visit Cyprus that also has significant G2a


The island was part of the Hittite empire during the late Bronze Age until the arrival of two waves of Greek settlement.[31]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus

Now let's visit small peak in what is now Croatia...
this peak is related to Liburnians
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/37/Liburnia_1st_AD.png/518px-Liburnia_1st_AD.png
I think that Liburnians are also Hittite in origin...
why? their name is the same as of legendary king of Hittite empire, who spread borders of the empire far away into lands near the sea...

Labarna I
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Labarna I was the traditional first King of the Hittites, ca. the early 16th century BC (short chronology).
Labarna is the traditional founder of the Hittite Old Kingdom (fl. ca. 1600 – 1450 BC), though his existence is sometimes questioned by modern scholars.
...What little is known about him is culled mainly from the Edict of Telipinu, which states that he overwhelmed his enemies and "made them borders of the sea",[1] a statement which may refer to conquests as far as the Mediterranean coast in the south, and the Black Sea in the north.
...
Labarna was actually a title of the early Hittite rulers,[2] rather than a personal name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarna_I

willy
28-10-10, 00:15
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif
As for Asia minor, it is most likely Hittites who carried this haplogroup...

if you compare maps you can see that peak in minor Asia matches exactly Hittite empire at its largest size..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2f/Hittite_Kingdom.png/800px-Hittite_Kingdom.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

to further convince you it was Hittites from whom Etruscans, Sarmatian Alans and ancient Macedonians origin from, let's visit Cyprus that also has significant G2a


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus

Now let's visit small peak in what is now Croatia...
this peak is related to Liburnians
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/37/Liburnia_1st_AD.png/518px-Liburnia_1st_AD.png
I think that Liburnians are also Hittite in origin...
why? their name is the same as of legendary king of Hittite empire, who spread borders of the empire far away into lands near the sea...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labarna_I

Thank you I am convicted I do agree this old settlement of G2a in Anatolia is matching to the Hittites I believe the Hittites were the real people of Anatolia as Renfrew the Indo European cradle was on this area or from the Armenian plateau or Caucasus in correlation to the Hattis the Hurrians and also the Kassites all these people are involved in the earlier Indo Aryan language or the proto Indo European all are sharing the same deities. Anyway G2a3b1 in Europe comes from these civilizations probably during the bronze age or more recently among the Alans or other tribes from this era ? The first hypothesis was about the Roman suppletives so I wonder why when the Roman Empire was defeated these suppletives were associated to the Germanic tribes ? I have some doubts about this hypothesis and also about the real demographic impact of these suppletives among the Romans on the European population ...

Melusine
28-10-10, 00:30
To all,

Since hopefully I can now post a URL, here is the URL for: haplogroup G ftdna project.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/G-YDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults

If this does not work Yahoo. ftdna hapgroup g y-dna project. (once you are in the project keep scrolling down to view all the tested parties results.)

This site, shows all males in the world who are of haplogroup G (only) that have tested with ftdna and their results. Only their kit numbers and surnames are posted.

Starting with haploclade G1 all results are in desending order. Just like in a genealogy chart. The "ancestor is G1 and his son's and their son's etc (in thousands of years) split down the line (downstream) with each number (G2) and then with mutations the sons split into subgroups like G2a, G2b , etc etc. In order for anyone to understand who came first , one would do well to look up this project.

Please do note the surname names of the beginning posted results, they "appear" to be of Middle Eastern origins. Also there are more than a few self identified (men) in "Jewish clusters".

Melusine

DejaVu
30-10-10, 02:00
Hi!

If the ancient Macedonians are G2a and came from Anatolia by the Hittites or other ethnicity it makes it interesting because my parents are from Macedonia (FYROM) and i got haplogroup G2a3b1a - DYS388=13.
If the King louis XVI got same bloodline like the rest of the Merovingians then maybe its from ancient Macedonian kings like Philip II of Macedon and Alexander III of macedon (The Great) maybe thats why the kings related by paternal or maternal line use same names? But mostly of todays royals are R1b.

how yes no 2
30-10-10, 16:52
Hi!
If the ancient Macedonians are G2a and came from Anatolia by the Hittites or other ethnicity it makes it interesting because my parents are from Macedonia (FYROM) and i got haplogroup G2a3b1a - DYS388=13.
If the King louis XVI got same bloodline like the rest of the Merovingians then maybe its from ancient Macedonian kings like Philip II of Macedon and Alexander III of macedon (The Great) maybe thats why the kings related by paternal or maternal line use same names? But mostly of todays royals are R1b.
Regards
Dean
Let's not jump to conclusions...
It is not correct to claim immediately that Ancient Macedonians were G2a. What can be said by looking at map of distribution of G2a, is that it seems to indicate that ancient Macedonians had substantially more G2a than their neighbours...
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg/752px-ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg
note that eleviated G2a area (if correctly drawn) seems to have slight offset from original center of ancient Macedonian state towards the parts of Macedonian state that were acquired later...
this is explainable by arrival of Slavs that pushed center of people who origin from ancient Macedonians a bit towards the remaining Byzantium strongholds in direction of southwest from original center...this is attested by spread of Slavic languages in Greece imediatelly north and northeast from G2a center..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Greece_linguistic_minorities.svg/550px-Greece_linguistic_minorities.svg.png
I would say that originally ancient Macedonians were not Greek, but later they were hellenised and have lost their identity and according to G2a spread have merged mostly into Greeks of today...

how yes no 2
30-10-10, 18:12
Let's now pay attention to areas that lack G2a

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg/752px-ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Paeonians.png
Note now the lack of G2a spread in area of Paeonia and Epirus..
They are in between two waves of G2a, south one that came from Asia minor with ancient Macedonians mostly, and north one that probably came with Thracians and related tribes either from Caucasus or Asia minor..
I would say that that Paeonians were there before G2a waves..
they could have been original settlers of that area..

DejaVu
30-10-10, 18:25
Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups

Listed here are notable ethnic groups by Y-DNA Haplogroups based on relevant studies.

Macedonia (FYROM) Haplogroup G 5.1%
Greece Haplogroup G 9.1%
Albania Haplogroup G 2%
Some of the Aromuns in Macedonia (FYROM) and Albania got haplogroup G.
Kurds in Turkey 12.5% G
Bulgaria 0% G
Serbia 0% G
Kosovo 0% G


Cant post links and to get there just search the headline in google, the information is in wikipedia.

Dont get me wrong I am not here to prove anything only hanging on with the information you all have posted and if I can post more relevant information here. Must start somewhere.

how yes no 2
13-11-10, 20:39
Let's not jump to conclusions...
It is not correct to claim immediately that Ancient Macedonians were G2a. What can be said by looking at map of distribution of G2a, is that it seems to indicate that ancient Macedonians had substantially more G2a than their neighbours...
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg/752px-ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg
note that eleviated G2a area (if correctly drawn) seems to have slight offset from original center of ancient Macedonian state towards the parts of Macedonian state that were acquired later...
this is explainable by arrival of Slavs that pushed center of people who origin from ancient Macedonians a bit towards the remaining Byzantium strongholds in direction of southwest from original center...this is attested by spread of Slavic languages in Greece imediatelly north and northeast from G2a center..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/63/Greece_linguistic_minorities.svg/550px-Greece_linguistic_minorities.svg.png
I would say that originally ancient Macedonians were not Greek, but later they were hellenised and have lost their identity and according to G2a spread have merged mostly into Greeks of today...
actually, I think I was wrong...
G2a doesnot match spread of ancient Macedonia...
and ethnic maps from 19th century show area settled by Turks on place where hotspot of G2a is...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Balkans-ethnic_%281877%29.jpg/581px-Balkans-ethnic_%281877%29.jpg
so, I think that hotspot is just recent settlement from Turkey...
ancient Macedonians might have had lot of R1a that is dominant in the region compared to surrounding areas...though this can also be result of Slavic settlements from 6th century....

willy
14-11-10, 14:58
actually, I think I was wrong...
G2a doesnot match spread of ancient Macedonia...
and ethnic maps from 19th century show area settled by Turks on place where hotspot of G2a is...

so, I think that hotspot is just recent settlement from Turkey...
ancient Macedonians might have had lot of R1a that is dominant in the region compared to surrounding areas...though this can also be result of Slavic settlements from 6th century....

G2a is Macedonian I don't believe to a genetic impact of the Turkish people even after the fall of Constantinople the local Anatolian people were forced to Islam you cant change the real representative population about thousands of years by a conquest 500 years ago there was a mixture and to notice R1a was also brought by the Asians Turks during the Invasion . G2a is clearly Greco Anatolian and Old Macedonian .

how yes no 2
14-11-10, 15:16
G2a is Macedonian I don't believe to a genetic impact of the Turkish people even after the fall of Constantinople the local Anatolian people were forced to Islam you cant change the real representative population about thousands of years by a conquest 500 years ago there was a mixture and to notice R1a was also brought by the Asians Turks during the Invasion . G2a is clearly Greco Anatolian and Old Macedonian .
The way I see it: people from Asia minor are mostly Turks now, but their genetic origin is before Ottoman Turks... Turks were just invaders, ruling elite, that did impose language and culture to native people among whom many were G2a... G2a in Asia minor is much older than Turks... but with Turks settlement from Asia minor (that is reach in G2a), the G2a hotspot was made in Greece...

willy
14-11-10, 15:27
The way I see it: people from Asia minor are mostly Turks now, but their genetic origin is before Ottoman Turks... Turks were just invaders, ruling elite, that did impose language and culture to native people among whom many were G2a... G2a in Asia minor is much older than Turks... but with Turks settlement from Asia minor (that is reach in G2a), the G2a hotspot was made in Greece...

How could you to prove this ? G2a3a1 is usually found among the Greek people so the origin is older than the Turkish settlement in Greece settlement who was as you said composed by people ruled by an Asiatic elite from different haplogroups (some R1a) that G2a found in the rest of Greece .

how yes no 2
14-11-10, 15:29
How could you to prove this ? G2a3a1 is usually found among the Greek people so the origin is older than the Turkish settlement in Greece settlement who was as you said composed by people ruled by an Asiatic elite from a different haplogroup that G2a .

I think that Asiatic elite had no G2a at all..
G2a was already there in Asia minor long back in history from times of Hettite empire and people living there were later conquered by Turks and assimilated into Turks... there was already layer of G2a spread present in Greece since Hellenic world has streched over Asia minor...but historically recent (few centuries ago) settlement of people from Turkey (where G2a is more dominant) did in fact significantly increase those values making the hotspot that we can see today...

willy
14-11-10, 15:40
I think that Asiatic elite had no G2a at all..
G2a was already there in Asia minor long back in history from times of Hettite empire and people living there were later conquered by Turks and assimilated into Turks... there was already layer of G2a spread present in Greece since Hellenic world has streched over Asia minor...but historically recent (few centuries ago) settlement of people from Turkey (where G2a is more dominant) did in fact significantly increase those values making the hotspot that we can see today...

Yes G2a is for a long time in Anatolia so you think that the Turks moved them in this era of Greece after the fall of Constantinople just 500 years ago ? and it is sufficient to see this hot spot ? I don't think so because there are many G2a3a in the FTDNA project who come from a Macedonian origin and who are not Turks .

how yes no 2
14-11-10, 15:50
Yes G2a is for a long time in Anatolia so you think that the Turks moved them in this era of Greece after the fall of Constantinople just 500 years ago ? and it is sufficient to see this hot spot ? I don't think so because there are many G2a3a in the FTDNA project who come from a Macedonian origin and who are not Turks .
As i said, G2a was spread from Asia minor to Greece/Macedonia during Hellenic times... that is uniform colour on Maciamo's map showing lower frequencies there... in addition, the area where hotspot is was few centuries ago settled by Turks... among those culturally and linguistically Turkish people, many have pre-Turkic roots, as it is the case in whole Turkey (see distribution of G2a there)...
adding this layer on top of layer with spread of G2a same as in the rest of Greece did increase frequencies of G2a...
if Ancient Macedonians were dominantly G2a we would for sure see stronger spread of G2a in original position of ancient Macedonia state

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/95/ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg/752px-ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg

but there it is same as in the rest of Greece... in fact, if you look carefully, hotspot of G2a falls more into Thessaly area that was out of Ancient Macedonia

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

Ivan
20-12-10, 08:45
I dont believe that Turks could make these hotspots only in G2a group. Turkey has 89% of all other groups and only 11% of G2a. Why isnt there a hotspot of all other Y haplogroups along with G2a. Turks are also R1a, R1b, E3b,... and more R1b than G2a. Why isnt there a hotspot that corresponds with 89% Turkish genes R1b,R1a,E3b and other. What could happen that Turks sudelny loose 89% of their genes.


For 300 years my ancestors lived in Zemun part of AutroHungarian empire, where they got land for fighting the Turks, as catholics and protecting Austo-Hungarian empire. They came form Poland as far as I know my surname is only found in Poland and probably originates form todays Ossetic language. This is IE Iranian branch.

how yes no 2
20-12-10, 23:12
I dont believe that Turks could make these hotspots only in G2a group. Turkey has 89% of all other groups and only 11% of G2a. Why isnt there a hotspot of all other Y haplogroups along with G2a. Turks are also R1a, R1b, E3b,... and more R1b than G2a. Why isnt there a hotspot that corresponds with 89% Turkish genes R1b,R1a,E3b and other. What could happen that Turks sudelny loose 89% of their genes.

hotspot in Greece is 12% (http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/italy.pdf), it is hotspot not because it is big percentage but because in surrounding area G is around 3 to 5%... 12% is more or less same level as in Turkey (do not expect flat 11% spread accross Turkey either)

exactly that area was settled by people from Turkey

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Balkans-ethnic_%281861%29.jpg/742px-Balkans-ethnic_%281861%29.jpg

so, I see no good reason not to relate the hotspot to settlement of people from Turkey...




For 300 years my ancestors lived in Zemun part of AutroHungarian empire, where they got land for fighting the Turks, as catholics and protecting Austo-Hungarian empire. They came form Poland as far as I know my surname is only found in Poland and probably originates form todays Ossetic language. This is IE Iranian branch.
calm down... no one claims that haplogroup G is turkic marker...
thing is that some carriers of G lived in Asia minor as well, and when area was conquered by Turks they were assimilated into Turks...

most of haplogroup G in Europe was spread by Alans...
even G in Turkey might have been spread by Alans related people...

Ivan
21-12-10, 06:49
There is nothing to calm about for the part you referd to . This was my first post and those are some informatons about what I know of my background.
Think of it as my introduction to you.

Also I do not want to connect myself to some heroic ancient people, Alexander or else. I see no enemies in today Turks either. On the contrary. My idea was that tthese people were Circassians settled in Ottoman lands when expelled from Caucasus. This post is only for determining truth.

exactly that area was settled by people from Turkey

If I see well Red is the representing colour for Turks. Why is then only this "northern" part of Greece in hotspot. It should be three hotspots. Also in todays Bulgaria and Bosnia.

3 to 5%... 12% is more or less same level as in Turkey (do not expect flat 11% spread across Turkey either)

Actually it is 1-2% in surrounding areas, and it rose to 12-15% when "Turks" came,so it was a big group of people if G2a who are 1/10 th of that group rose in pecent to 12-15%. I just wanted to know what happened to R1b Turks who are 10-25% in Turkey. Why this people are not visible in in Hotspot area and why they dint rose percent also. R1b was 10% previosly. Proportionaly it should be aruond 28% now of R1b in the hotspot. What happened to Turks of all other groups - 89% of them (including previous). E3b is 21% in Turkey, J1 is 12,5% and they should be visible too much more than G2a. What about all other groups that live only in Turkey why they are not visible? It just looks to much rounded about 1/10 of Turkish genes.

I liked your previous post very much, not because of hittites and alexander but brave interpretation of something that looked very plausable. I look forward to not being related at all with any of those great ancient civilisations, only to see out of the box oppinions of historical thruths, when applied to DNA knowledge.

Also I would want to say something else. When you wanted to see this hotspot being an ancient Macedonian settelment you saw how this hotspot directly corensponds to your idea. I suspect many of people reading believed you. Afterwards, your new theory produced also not so acurate version hotspot being so much out of those boundaires.
It was very interesting to me but I respect your energy and open mindness that in real life do produce such small mistakes. These told me you are a person who seeks the truth sincerelly.

Thank you for your time.

how yes no 2
21-12-10, 16:14
There is nothing to calm about for the part you referd to . This was my first post and those are some informatons about what I know of my background.
Think of it as my introduction to you.

ok, I aplogize for misunderstanding mention of your background as emotionally related to discussion about origin of G hotspot in Greece...


My idea was that tthese people were Circassians settled in Ottoman lands when expelled from Caucasus. This post is only for determining truth.

that is possible... is there historical data about their settlement in Greece and about possible locations? I could not find anything on wikipedia...



If I see well Red is the representing colour for Turks. Why is then only this "northern" part of Greece in hotspot. It should be three hotspots. Also in todays Bulgaria and Bosnia.

it may happen that hotpsots exist there as well but that sampling was not done in that area... e.g. in Bosnia they did take samples from all over Bosnia but without regional determination except of split on two regions: Bosnia and Herzegovina... with total number of people sampled in Bosnia and Herzegovina being at most few hundreds, it is very clear that one cannot see influence of G hotspot in single small county...

Further on, we do not know whether Turkish settlements still existed after liberating those areas from Turks... I can imagine that the ones in borderline places were forced to move out, while the ones surrounded by native people were aloud to stay...


Actually it is 1-2% in surrounding areas, and it rose to 12-15% when "Turks" came,so it was a big group of people if G2a who are 1/10 th of that group rose in pecent to 12-15%. I just wanted to know what happened to R1b Turks who are 10-25% in Turkey.

Why this people are not visible in in Hotspot area and why they dint rose percent also. R1b was 10% previosly. Proportionaly it should be aruond 28% now of R1b in the hotspot. What happened to Turks of all other groups - 89% of them (including previous). E3b is 21% in Turkey, J1 is 12,5% and they should be visible too much more than G2a. What about all other groups that live only in Turkey why they are not visible? It just looks to much rounded about 1/10 of Turkish genes.


Turkey has lot of regional oscillations in frequency of haplogroups... so it is possible that settled group origins from region reach in G, and poor in R1b.... which would be from southwest part of Asia minor

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/42/R1b-map.JPG

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

willy
22-12-10, 02:27
I think Y DNA G2a3b1 has a Indo Iranian origin in Europe

About Y DNA G2 and Indo Aryans (Mitanni and Kassite connection)

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/solution-to-problem-of-indo-aryan.html
problem of Indo-Aryan origins the Dagestan component that he detects in Indian Brahmins
Y DNA G2a3b1 found in Caucasus (Dagestan) and also among the Indian Tamil Nadu upper caste . This is an interesting paper on Y DNA G2a3b1 among the Brahman caste of Tamil Nadu south Indian ethnic group
(Updated Nov 13, 2010; Originally posted in March 2009) http://php.scripts.psu.edu/faculty/a/x/axr15/My_Paternal_Ancestry.htm

You can read : "the G haplogroup is present in about 13% of Iyengars (most of whom are likely to be G2a3b1), 11.1% of Bihar Paswans, 11% of Gujarati Brahmins, 10% of Iyers, 3.3% of Maharashtra Brahmins, 3.6% of Punjabi Brahmins (as well as other Punjabis), and a few other groups with small representations: Parsis (Zoroastrian) and Ambalakarars (Kerala temple dwellers)."

(When you have more than 10 % of G2a somewhere this a very high level because the Haplogroup G is extremely rare over the world)

The most interesting thing is that you have Y DAN R1a Y DNA J2 or Y DNA R M269 in the Lower caste but not G2a* who is in a great majority among the Upper caste from a Indo Aryan origin . So I am not sure that Y DNA J2 is really concerned by the relation ship between Caucasus and Indian Brahmans . Thats more significant when you know that Y DNA G2a is extremely rare and Y DNA R1a ,Y DNA J2 or Y DNA R-M269 are found on a large scale at very high level in many areas on Asia near east or Europe (East and West) so you can to associate them many different cultures this is not really the case about G2a who seems to be a good tracer in that case .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyengar
Haplogroup Distribution among the Iyengars

As per popular belief, Iyengars are descendants of Indo-Aryan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryans) migrants originally from North India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_India), as are their Smartha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartha) counterparts, the Iyers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iyers). Like all brahmin communities,the Iyengars are also classified based on their gotra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra), or patrilineal descent.



http://porlier.olympe-network.com/diagrameG.JPG

Ivan
22-12-10, 06:13
For now I would stick to a Circassian deportation idea. I will try to make more of it. One Circassian tribe of Shapsughs have 81% of G2a.

I have no problem with Turkish origin idea itself. My problem consists two things:

- I see hotspots generaly as a very distinct DNA formation. If no other group matches their ( G ) presence in those hotspots (this one and any other), this signifies a large % of G people in a migratory group that made a hotspot. I see no G group hotspots in Turkey that could indicate a potent % of G group. It is rather uniform and I agree with you it is such due to an old settlement from possibly 6000 years ago.

-I agree that Turkish genes could vary from place to place, but (On your map there is no R1b under 15%. I know that Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia have 7-15%). In worst case ( on my map it is 10%) a R1b must have accompanied the G2a and have made a visible impression on hotspot. Not to mention J1 that is more prominent than G2 , is situated where R1b lacks in %, and is almost absent in Greece. Also all other groups should have left some mark for me to be convinced.

For now, I see no reason to believe that such a small group could leave such a genetic imprint without all other potential groups( which are in general more potent for leaving an imprint) leaving an imprint also.




The other story could be more interesting:

I believe in part of your previous posts of Hittites being connected to G as well as R1b. This is why:

1. Hittites king name was Hatushilli. Still today Georgian surnames end with Shvili or shilli.

2. Their capital was made on the hillside on a very rough terrain, two times in a year cut off, and covered in snow.They had a technique of building on steep hillsides and boaring a granite rocks to make this marvelous city for 50000 people. They were hundreds of miles from nearest rivers and roads.They had no water but one from rain in basins made uphill and piped to the city.

You could not make anyone just for sake of it to make a city on a hillside or to learn all the necessary engineering to do so, (as an architect I know it is impossible to learn such skills on the way or even in terms of centuries living on mountains), or to deprive people of water and contact with other people, to make those people live in conditions where there is a lack of oxygen, water, and human contact, in presence of harsh elements, to build this city, if those people did not originate in a mountain culture.
And a specific one that used all the skills learned in centuries or millenniums of living in high mountains to be able to organize mountain skilled and roughened by climate highlander people to make such a city.It still had to meet all the needs of that people. Many people from valleys could not even breathe there for a long time, not to mention work on such a task, play, create art, wage wars, or in general to be satisfied living in such conditions.

Personally, I believe they originated in Caucasus.

3. For hundred years scientists could not read their script and then they read one word: wa-a-tar, or something like that, that was the word from IE languages. So, to their (a part of scientific circles) surprise, they concluded these people must have been people from Europe, since they could not see any other culture that could be potentially be more connected. Some of them argued that it must came from Europe since IE languages only traveled from Eurasia to Europe on northern route.

I was not convinced. Not only Caucasus have IE languages (My surname is derived from IE Ossetian language), but 50 mostly unknown languages are spoken today in Caucasus (genetically close people). About the northern route that my ancestors actually have undertaken, it was not, in my opinion, a primary route for spreading IE languages, as G2a and R1b groups prove by Anatolian connection, but rather from Caucasus to Anatolia.
Concerning R1b, it also originates in Georgia today, but this map of R1b in nowdays Anatolia shows two more (waves?) of R1b that could be Roman? I believe that R1b and G2a were in similar proportion when coming to Anatolia.

how yes no 2
22-12-10, 10:51
Personally, I believe they originated in Caucasus.

yes, look at this figure from wikipedia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/37/Mass_migration_of_Greece_and_Turkey_in_1900BCE.svg/800px-Mass_migration_of_Greece_and_Turkey_in_1900BCE.svg .png

so, I think we can assume that haplogroup G arrived to Asia minor from Caucasus mostly around 1900 BC with Hittites...


It is generally assumed that the Hittites came into Anatolia some time before 2000 BC. While their earlier location is disputed, there has been strong evidence for more than a century that the home of the Indo-Europeans in the fourth and third millennia was in the Pontic Steppe, present day Ukraine around the Sea of Azov. The Hittites and other members of the Anatolian family then came from the north, possibly along the Caspian Sea. Their movement into the region set off a Near East mass migration sometime around 1900 BC The dominant inhabitants in central Anatolia at the time were Hattians. There were also Assyrian colonies in the country; it was from these that the Hittites adopted the cuneiform script. It took some time before the Hittites established themselves, as is clear from some of the texts included here. For several centuries there were separate Hittite groups, usually centered around various cities. But then strong rulers with their center in Boğazköy succeeded in bringing these together and conquering large parts of central Anatolia to establish the Hittite kingdom.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_Empire


To reconstruct what could have happened we need to compare spread of G with spreads of I2a2, J2, E-V13, R1b and R1a

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png/800px-HgE1b1b1a2.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/R1bmap.JPG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

previous inhabitants were thus Hattians and Asyrians...

The Hattians were an ancient people who inhabited the land of Hatti in present-day central part of Anatolia, Turkey, noted at least as early as the empire of Sargon of Akkad ca. 2300,[1] until they were gradually displaced and absorbed ca. 2000-1700 BC by Indo-European Hittites, who adopted their name for the "land of Hatti".
...
The Hattians were organised in feudal city-states and small kingdoms or principalities. These cities were well organized and ruled as theocratic principalities. Even as they were taken over one by one by the conquering Hittites after ca. 2200 BC, the Hattians probably continued to form the major portion of the population.
...
The Hattians spoke a non-Indo-European language of uncertain affiliation called Hattic, now believed by some scholars to be related to the Northwest Caucasian language group.[4
...
The influence of their culture was such that the Hittites took over much of their religion and mythology.
....
The use of the word "Proto-Hittite" instead of Hattians is inaccurate. This would imply that the Hittites evolved from the Hattians, which is completely false. The Hittites were an Indo-European people, ethnically and linguistically distinct from the Hattians. However, the term "Land of Hatti" was so ingrained that the Hittites continued to use it when referring to their own country. The Hattians eventually merged with, or were replaced by, the Hittites, who spoke the Indo-European Hittite language
...
The Hattians and the Hittites apparently had different personal characteristics. Egyptian depictions of the Battle of Kadesh reportedly show long-nosed Hattian soldiers, while their Hittite leaders looked different according to Turkish archaeologist Ekrem Akurgal.[7]
Akurgal claims that "The Hattians were still the great majority of the population in the Hittite period."[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattians

possible scenario of developments in Asia minor:
J2 is first layer in Asia Minor
J2 spread from Asia minor along sea coasts round 5000 BC resulting in Printed-Cardmium pottery
E-V13 spread to Balkan

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

R1b (and some R1a?) settle(s) in Asia minor from somewhere in Iran

R1b spread from Asia minor to west Europe together with some J2 (this is not the first wave of R1b to populate Europe; earlier waves did not carry J2 (see Basques area and Celtic areas in uk) and might have come from direction passing above Black sea)

R1a from Balkan spreads to Euroasia giving Scythians

early Scythian R1a settles in south of Asia minor among E-V13 people

R1a repopulates east Europe from Asia minor? (this is suggested by spread of E-V13 that seems to have spread that correlates with R1a and is absent in R1b areas same as it is the case for Asia minor)

in 2000 BC E-V13, some J2, and some R1a are what is called Assyrians, while R1b and some J2 are Hatti
I2a2 that was also present in Asia minor was pushed to west by arrival of Hettite....

Hittite (G and some J2) settle among Hatti (R1b and J2) and Assyrians (mix of E-V13, J2 and R1a)
...

finally Turks

The latest study from Turkey by Gokcumen (2008)[27] took into account oral histories and historical records. They went to villages and did not do a random selection from a group of university students like many other studies. Accordingly here are the results:
1) At an Afshar village whose oral stories tell they come from Central Asia they found that 57% come from haplogroup L, 13% from haplogroup Q, 3% from haplogroup N thus indicating that the L haplogroups in Turkey are of Central Asian heritage rather than Indian. These Asian groups add up to 73% in this village. Furthermore 10% of these Afshars were E3a and E3b. Only 13% were J2a, the most common haplogroup in Turkey.
2) An older Turkish village center that did not receive much migration was about 25% N and 25% J2a with 3% G and close to 30% of some sort of R1 but mostly R1b.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_origins_of_the_Turkish_people

iapetoc
12-01-11, 15:06
OK but the Greek G2 (thessalo-makedonia) and the portoquese G2??? are they central and north european or hetit-minor Asian????

Ivan
12-01-11, 16:15
There are about 3 million Circassians in todays Turkey. They are decendants of exiled Circassians. They are almost all G2a

Since in original tribes of Circassia there were mostly G2a. Shapsugh tribe was one of the bigest tribes in 1850 priior to exile. Shapsugs today have 83,5 % of G2a but are low in numbers.
Because of I and R1a coming to Circassia or republika adigeja (russian province), today Circassia have only 30% of original population.

Also Russians setteled in Ossetia in great numbers most of their peasant populations and Cossaks (I2a2) snice distoying Circassia in atempt to eradicate local population. Much of old English books speak of very elaborate processes settling Russian population in Ossetia and Circassia, that Russia undertook prior and after Exiling 1.500.000 or 2.000.000 people in 1864. Only less than 500.000 survived this journey.



I promised to find Circassian evidence on hotspot but for now I couldn`t.
The majority of Circassians actualy left Balkan for Jordan Syria and Israel, where they were not accepted at first.


Circassian Diaspora
Quantity
Turkey 3,000,000
Syria 80,000
Jordan 65,000
Israel 3,595
United States 9,000
Kosovo (in 1998) 174 These went back to Circassia because of giving support to Serbia.
Germany 40,000
Netherlands 500



I did find a lot of evidence of Tukish settlements in Balkan countries and Greece. But it doesnt involve the Hotspot. Turks, and other sources speak in numbers not only map distibutions. They say Western Thrace is predominat with Turkish people.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6a/Thracians_Greece-Western.png/135px-Thracians_Greece-Western.png

The Turks and Pomaks By Hugh Poulton, "The Balkans, Minorities and Governments in Conflict (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1873194404/greecethracemi0e)" (1993), Minority Rights Publication

Assessing the number of Turks and other minorities in Greece is problematic. The census of 1928 recorded 191,254 Turks while the 1951 census recorded 179,895 Turks of whom virtually all were either Muslim by religion, 92,219, or Orthodox, 86,838. While some live on the Greek islands neighbouring Turkey, most live in Western Thrace. The Pomaks, Muslim Slavs, or a small number of Muslim Greeks, tend to live also in Western Thrace in villages in the southern Rhodope and due to the official reticence to give figures for ethnic minorities, only for religious ones, it is hard to separate them from the Turks; however, the villages near the Bulgarian border in all three provinces of Western Thrace are predominantly Pomak with the exception of some like Mikron Dereion which have a mixed population of ethnic Turks, Pomaks and Greek Orthodox, or others which have a sedentary Muslim Gypsy population. Many Pomaks also live in Komotini and Xantini and some also live in Dhidhimotikhon.


Of the other minorities there are small populations of Gagauz, Christian Turkish-speaking people, for example around the city of Alexandroupolis, and Sarakatsani, Greek speaking transhumants, especially in the village of Palladion. Fieldwork by F. De Jong in 1979, to whom much of the above is indebted, notes that there are no longer any Circassians in Western Thrace.

So Turks living in Grece should be visible mostly in Western Thrace.
I myself do not believe they could be visible at all, through G haplotype, since all Circassians allegedly left Western Thrace.

There were certanly G in Turkish army and those who settled in Balkan, but they are not visble enough since Turkish genes do no differ enough from Bosnian, Serbian, Bulgarian, and Greece populations. I believe much more Turks live in Serbia and Bosnia today but are not visible. Only their surnames that are of Tukish origin including words Beg, Ali, Pasa... survive.

Ivan
12-01-11, 16:48
Iapetos, you are of g2a

and you seem to live in the G hotspot area, if I am right.

Are you indigenous in that area?

http://www.travel-greece.org/nothern_greece/pieria/katerini/map.png

Ivan
12-01-11, 17:11
The post that arrived in between from Willy adrressed an issue of G2a being closer to India. I believe in it to some point. I read that there were three thories of G beiing closer to Caucasus and the other being closer to foothills of Himalayas, and one in between.



The upper caste story does really look interesting., since a rare group is primarely concentrated in this caste. For what I know mixing in castes was forbiddden, so one group to have such an impact in one caste and to stay there for the time of Indias long history looks almost like a royal familly. Other groups could be in more than one caste only by previosly being lover and constanly approving in military sence to deserve position in upper caste.

I personaly dont believe these people were present there from the start, because it would be very hard to stay in these castes through long Indian history, but more as some military elite who imposeed themselves on local population making a more strict caste rule. That is only my oppinion, I could be wrong.

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 22:01
people of Georgia do origin from Laz people
kingdom of Lazica matches fairly well spread of G in Caucasus

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/35/Ge_lazika.png
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

Sarmatian Lazyges/Iazyges might be related but iranian speaking people....
Ossetians of today are likely descendants of iranian speaking Sarmatians
they also have very dominant haplogroup G as people of Georgia...
Ossetians are by Russians also called Iasi which is same as Iazyges...
however, they are considered to be descendant of Sarmatian Alans...
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/500/entity_6193.html

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a5/Hispania_418_AD.PNG/300px-Hispania_418_AD.PNG

question is whether some or all of G in Iberian peninsula is due to Alans who had there state together with Germanic Vandals and Suebi, or is some or all of it due to some previous inhabitants

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg/727px-Iberia_300BC.svg.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

I would say that hotspot on the west is due to Lusitani
Lusitani does indeed seems to be similar word to tribal name Laz

Noman
24-08-13, 06:22
The FTDNA G project had recently erase the Caucasus G2a3b1 cluster because the Europeans belong to the same subclades .If G2a3b1 comes from the G2a3 who was In Europe during the neolithic why there is no more G2a3 still in Europe ? why these few people G2a3 supposed to be from the European Neolithic had no time to make a large G2a3b1 population in Europe as R1b1b2 Atlantic modal ? The neolithic period is known to be an great period for a very large demographic expansion of the Europeans (mostly R1b1b2) so why G2a3b1 is few ? there is no reason only a recent migration during the bronze age could explain it .
(http://www.jogg.info/31/athey.pdf)

It's not likely that G came from before ice age because it's not in basque country but spread by IE is even a sillier idea in my opinion.

We have a huge group of nearly all G in neolithic europe. It's believed etruscans were G as well (some people who say they were etruscans are all G).

The idea that a haplogroup forms by drift might be a big mistake, as the genes actually mean something. It could be that the G in europe did form here due to selection. It could be there was a lot more G in europe followed by a bottleneck that would also make it homogenous. It could be it all came from some civilization outside of caucus that was affected by climate change and we are seeing the only remnants. It's hard to say before but mostly we don't know much for sure, but hopefully will get a better picture in time.

adamo
28-08-13, 07:57
It's interesting to note that a study found P15 (G2a) in 11% of Cretans, thus confirming my assumption that G2a moved from Georgia through turkey to Greece and the Greek islands, ending up in southern Italy and western Sicily in a place or two and then on the island of Sardinia. A Sicilian branch may later have moved towards the Bavarian alps and out from there, Joseph Stalin was paternal G. Which makes sense, as Georgia has the world's highest G frequency on a national level (30%) (without counting the Caucasus mountains Ossetian people, who have like 88% hg G. Interesting frequencies (10%) can be found in neighbouring turkey/Armenia and Iran, some parts of Azerbaijan as well.

Sile
28-08-13, 08:22
It's interesting to note that a study found P15 (G2a) in 11% of Cretans, thus confirming my assumption that G2a moved from Georgia through turkey to Greece and the Greek islands, ending up in southern Italy and western Sicily in a place or two and then on the island of Sardinia. A Sicilian branch may later have moved towards the Bavarian alps and out from there, Joseph Stalin was paternal G. Which makes sense, as Georgia has the world's highest G frequency on a national level (30%) (without counting the Caucasus mountains Ossetian people, who have like 88% hg G. Interesting frequencies (10%) can be found in neighbouring turkey/Armenia and Iran, some parts of Azerbaijan as well.

In the alps , the following numbers from Ftdna for alpine tests only ..........G2a3 is very high.

N=190


56 x
R1b*
29.47%


34 x
G2*
17.89%


31 x
J2*
16.32%


23 x
E1b1b1
12.11%


19 x
I*
10.00%


17 x
R1a1*
8.95%


4 x
T1*
2.11%


3 x
L
1.58%


2 x
Q1b1

1.05%


1 x
C3
0.53%



Of the G2*, 23 are G2a3.

Of the I1, 10 are I1, 4 are I2b1 and 5 are I2a*

My guess from reading the assyrian/armenian forums is that J2a4 ( there are 29 )numbers are most likely from bithynia, mysia or paphlongia .( northern Anatolia). Note ..only 1 is J1

And for the T marker , 3 are T1b and 1 is T1a

adamo
28-08-13, 08:26
Very interesting Zanipolo.

Sile
28-08-13, 22:21
Very interesting Zanipolo.

more on T for you, read also the comments which has some links

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com.au/2011/10/evidence-regarding-dravidian-linguistic.html

MOESAN
30-08-13, 20:00
In the alps , the following numbers from Ftdna for alpine tests only ..........G2a3 is very high.

N=190


56 x
R1b*
29.47%


34 x
G2*
17.89%


31 x
J2*
16.32%


23 x
E1b1b1
12.11%


19 x
I*
10.00%



17 x
R1a1*
8.95%


4 x
T1*
2.11%


3 x
L
1.58%


2 x
Q1b1
1.05%


1 x
C3
0.53%



Of the G2*, 23 are G2a3.

Of the I1, 10 are I1, 4 are I2b1 and 5 are I2a*

My guess from reading the assyrian/armenian forums is that J2a4 ( there are 29 )numbers are most likely from bithynia, mysia or paphlongia .( northern Anatolia). Note ..only 1 is J1

And for the T marker , 3 are T1b and 1 is T1a



please, where these %s come from exactly? thanks beforehand

Sile
30-08-13, 21:12
please, where these %s come from exactly? thanks beforehand

Ftdna project forum.............so they are based on present population.

The project manager with other genetic specialists does try to place these markers to ancient tribes. like
G2a L30+ M406+ (http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=82574292) Eastern Alpine? (Alpine-Illyrian?)

R1b P312+ U152+ Z36+ (http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520) North Alpine? (Celtic?)

I2 P217+ M223+ Z161+ Z76+ (http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=54024935) Rhine Valley/Central Germany? (Central European?)

L M22+ M317+ DYS425=null Tyrolean/Ladin? (Italic-Med?)

T M70+ L131+ L446+ Alpine/Italic? (Med-ME?)

T M70+ L131+ L446+ Venetic/Adriatic? (Euro-Med?)

I1⇢Z58⇢Z59⇢CTS8647⇢Z60⇢Z140⇢F2642⇢F2 735 candidate SE Alps, Anglo-Saxon ▶ Geno 2.0

etc

stated
Name indications of the Y-DNA groups: First the main haplogroup and terminal SNPs are showed, then the past should be visible by 700 year steps. Ca. year 1300 by positions of the member ancestors. Ca. year 600 by first proposed position/culture. Ca. year 100 BC by proposed position/culture in parentesis. The grouping goal is to find clusters with Common Ancestor (see also MRCA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor)) not more then 3,000 years ago. The prediction is higly speculative and can only be made if a 37/67 marker profile is in the group and public FTDNA-Projects Matches (or elsewhere) are available

adamo
03-09-13, 11:14
In terms of hg G, these are the world's highest frequencies in the Middle East in order: Georgians (30-32%), Azerbaijanis (18-20%), Southern Egyptians (17%), Northern Iranians (15%), Southern Iranians (13%), Turks have about 10%. Assyrians from Iran also have about 9% as do Ashkenazi Jews (10%) and Armenians (10%). Libya has about 8% and Egypt averages around 7-9% with lows of 2% and highs of 17% depending on the region. Frequencies are surprisingly low on the Arabian peninsula and across the Levant.

Alan
03-09-13, 13:24
It's interesting to note that a study found P15 (G2a) in 11% of Cretans, thus confirming my assumption that G2a moved from Georgia through turkey to Greece and the Greek islands, ending up in southern Italy and western Sicily in a place or two and then on the island of Sardinia. A Sicilian branch may later have moved towards the Bavarian alps and out from there, Joseph Stalin was paternal G. Which makes sense, as Georgia has the world's highest G frequency on a national level (30%) (without counting the Caucasus mountains Ossetian people, who have like 88% hg G. Interesting frequencies (10%) can be found in neighbouring turkey/Armenia and Iran, some parts of Azerbaijan as well.

Freuquency ≠ origin. Though Georgia and Adyghe have high frequency of G2a, the most likely place of origin is somewhere between Iran-Levant-East Anatolia-South Caucasus.

G2a in connection with the Southern or Mediterranean/Southwest Asian autosomal dna lets me assume that G2a reached Europe through Southeast Anatolia or the Levant.

adamo
03-09-13, 13:49
I know. It crossed from turkey-Greece-southern Italy-Sardinia. Notice how I mentioned FREQUENCY not age or diversity.

Alan
05-09-13, 11:18
I know. It crossed from turkey-Greece-southern Italy-Sardinia. Notice how I mentioned FREQUENCY not age or diversity.

But you drew a wrong conclusion out of it. Based on frequency you consider Georgia the place where G2a came to Europe, read your own comment above.
While the Levant, northern Mesopotamia or Anatolia is more likely the place where this Haplogroup started to migrate to Europe.

adamo
05-09-13, 12:19
Then why is there a trail of G2a (P15) leading from Georgia, through Turkey, towards southern Italy/Sardinia?

MOESAN
07-09-13, 16:39
Ftdna project forum.............so they are based on present population.

The project manager with other genetic specialists does try to place these markers to ancient tribes. like
G2a L30+ M406+ (http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=82574292)Eastern Alpine? (Alpine-Illyrian?)

R1b P312+ U152+ Z36+ (http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=65388520)North Alpine? (Celtic?)

I2 P217+ M223+ Z161+ Z76+ (http://ytree.ftdna.com/index.php?name=Draft&parent=54024935) Rhine Valley/Central Germany? (Central European?)

L M22+ M317+ DYS425=null Tyrolean/Ladin? (Italic-Med?)

T M70+ L131+ L446+ Alpine/Italic? (Med-ME?)

T M70+ L131+ L446+ Venetic/Adriatic? (Euro-Med?)

I1⇢Z58⇢Z59⇢CTS8647⇢Z60⇢Z140⇢F2642⇢F2 735 candidate SE Alps, Anglo-Saxon ▶ Geno 2.0

etc

stated
Name indications of the Y-DNA groups: First the main haplogroup and terminal SNPs are showed, then the past should be visible by 700 year steps. Ca. year 1300 by positions of the member ancestors. Ca. year 600 by first proposed position/culture. Ca. year 100 BC by proposed position/culture in parentesis. The grouping goal is to find clusters with Common Ancestor (see also MRCA (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor)) not more then 3,000 years ago. The prediction is higly speculative and can only be made if a 37/67 marker profile is in the group and public FTDNA-Projects Matches (or elsewhere) are available

Thanks for kind answer
My problem is: these %s of Y-HGs and SNPs are not level in the Alps and far from to be, I suppose (Alps is a large geographic zone with complicated history) - and I rely not too much on these DNA projects because they very often distord the genuine statistical data, their data obtained by their methods of recruting sample - I think it is interesting trying to find common ancestors and pathways and to date them but as I understand it is with STRs yet... I prefer well defined chains of SNPs -
thanks nevertheless

MOESAN
07-09-13, 16:58
I recall a (half controversed) metric survey concerning South-Central Anatolia "peasants" near or at çatal Hüyük near Konya in South Central present days Turkey and the anthropological correlations with fist Greece "peasants" (neolithic) and at some level with "Rubanés" or "LBK" "peasants" of central Europe; classified by classical anthropology as 'danubian mediterranean' (not too strict type, but with very typical features in details, separating them very easily from other 'mediterranean' types; these traits were found too at last Neolithic in Alsace (E-France) and in Normandy: if well based, the trail would be Anatolia/Dardanelles Strait/Greece and Mediterranea for a part and Danau river for the other part?
If I remember well, an archeological (this time) trail was found between Anatolia (always Dardanelles) and the Eastern LBK-
if it can help to complete the Y-DNA data - for Austria-Switzerland I remain sceptical because Danau river could have seen Alani Y-G2 as well as Danubian agricultors Y-G2 (I have not a detailed SNPs data for Austria so...?)

Sile
07-09-13, 19:46
if it can help to complete the Y-DNA data - for Austria-Switzerland I remain sceptical because Danau river could have seen Alani Y-G2 as well as Danubian agricultors Y-G2 (I have not a detailed SNPs data for Austria so...?)

Well, I already gave you a detailed Y-G2 on all of western Austria.( information is only 2 months old) I doubt you will find anything on eastern austria

MOESAN
07-09-13, 21:16
Well, I already gave you a detailed Y-G2 on all of western Austria.( information is only 2 months old) I doubt you will find anything on eastern austria

OK and sorry! I'll look at it again even if only about a region -
it is true I now come on this forum only the week-end and I lack some regularity!
have a good evening!

Sile
07-09-13, 23:10
OK and sorry! I'll look at it again even if only about a region -
it is true I now come on this forum only the week-end and I lack some regularity!
have a good evening!

if you want the full report, email me privately your email address and I will attach it for you

Alan
08-09-13, 15:41
Then why is there a trail of G2a (P15) leading from Georgia, through Turkey, towards southern Italy/Sardinia?

Probably because they belong to the same wave of Neolithic immigrants whom moved into Europe anf Georgia roughly the same time.

MOESAN
14-09-13, 18:19
to begin, thanks to SILE for a good link

Concerning Y-G (firstable) and Austria others HGs*:


*: a new article about East Tyrol (near Carinthia) separated from the big North Tyrol by the «italian» South Tyrol -
link:
www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885)



title: «Pasture Names with Romance and Slavic Roots Facilitate Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation in an Exclusively German Speaking Alpine Region»



concerning Y-G:

in Austrian Tyrol (as a whole) the dominant form: 75,6% of Y-G, is the G-P15>L32>L497 one, brother to M406 : 4,8% and cousin to L293 (>> P16: 3,3% Caucasian people of today)and to L91: 4,4%(Ötzi/Mediterranean Isles: Corsica, Sardinia..) - the absolute percentages are 8,6% / 0,5% / 0,4% / 0,5% - (total Y-G 11%)

this absolute domination within G of L497 in Tyrol could be from: a founder effect outside before arriving in Tyrol, or one in Tyrol, or a local drift among more differentiated Y-G's – but in mountains valleys like that local recent enough drifts would have given differnet dominant SNP according to the valleys? - so an already dominant G-L497 before arriving in Tyrol seems to me less uncertain (it is found in a huge part of Europe but at very low level) – the STRs show a local type of L497, with dense distribution merely in the western parts of Tyrol and with a coalescence calculated as 5000 BC (roughly) – the median STR type (~ modal) of Tyrol is found too in some regions as north-eastern Bulgaria - eastern Romania, Moldavia, East to carpathians (post-Starcevo?), Ibiza and W-Majorqua in front of it (Baleares), coastal eastern Catalonia (Spain), a spot in Piemonte and a region linking Veneto to whole Tyrol, a spot in eastern Sicilia intrigues me – Rootsi (according to the authors of this study) thought this HG of Y-G2a is linked to LBK: it makes sense for me too – so, no tight link with later I-Eans, only for somones? - the mountainous localisation and age confirms that – I remember some skeletal remnants of 'danubian mediterranean' phenotypes too in calcholitical cultures (neolithic+copper) and in Rhodanian culture in N-Italy and N-Catalonia under cultural influences of N-Italy – so a 'danubian' Y-G2a population, more or less crossed with others, could have reached Tyrol and N-Italy when an other Y-G2a one carrying an other mediterranean subptype, colonised Mediterranea by sea, the two of them at early neolithical times – the differences of phenotypes could be due to a) first micro-racialisation or first crossings mediated by females in Anatolia – b) much more crossings on the females side for the maritime Cardial Y-G2a bearers? The G-L497 in the Baelares islands seem being arrived there from Catalonia, by land before navigating, contrary to the bulk of G-L91's of Sardinia and Corsica who where true maritimes ones and cardial -

to conclude: austrian Y-G2a-L497 = néolithical for the most, not bronze age nor I-Eans, at this stage of my knowledge – (the Etruscan hypothesislost force too) -

&: the Y-G2a-L283-P16 is very seldom everywhere except around Caucasus: I think they were not the first providers of neolithical bans of Europe and I bet they always stayed rather in the northern versant of Caucasus – I modify my first opinion concerning Alani: they were surely more Y-R1a than Y-G2a – the today highsport of Y-G2a in Ossetians is not due to Alani -



as a whole, the heavy (19%) but poorly variated Y-R1b-U106, dominant more in West than in East Austria, associated with a not negligeable % of Y-I1 (12%), is for me definitely linked to Germanic populations (Völkerwanderungen), whoever the tribe -



the study I put a link to above is focused on East Tyrol – it tries to link current Y-DNA to ancient populations by studying ancient toponymes (pasture places names): very interesting idea!

The E-Tyrol were colonised by Germanics around the 5/6° centuries, but not in everyplace – but before them were Romance speakers and Slavic speakers that fought lastly in 610 – the romance language disapearred progressively, and at the 14° cetury it was reduced to some places – as a whole, they say, slavic local placenames were found in East and North E-Tyrol, even Northwest, and romances names in South and Southwest, near the Veneto fronteers except some isolated places in Kals Valley in North-Northeast -

as a whole today: 71% germanic names, 17% slavic names, 12% romance names -
whatever the generations, there is surprising facts to extract of this study -
as a whole, S-Tyrol has more Y-R1b than N-Tyrol (42,2% > 32,0%), but «slavic» has much more of it than «romance» - in «slavic», U106 as opposed to U152 is very stronger than in «romance» (here, no surpise, «slavic» is northernly placed – almost NO Y-R1a in «slavic»!!! opposed to intuition! -
globally in the two «slavic and «romance», Y-G2a is P15 (weakly usefull: upstream to Caucasus and C-Europe sorts) – I shall come back on this subject after some brainstorm!

Sile
14-09-13, 21:47
to begin, thanks to SILE for a good link

Concerning Y-G (firstable) and Austria others HGs*:


*: a new article about East Tyrol (near Carinthia) separated from the big North Tyrol by the «italian» South Tyrol -
link:
www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885)



title: «Pasture Names with Romance and Slavic Roots Facilitate Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation in an Exclusively German Speaking Alpine Region»



concerning Y-G:

in Austrian Tyrol (as a whole) the dominant form: 75,6% of Y-G, is the G-P15>L32>L497 one, brother to M406 : 4,8% and cousin to L293 (>> P16: 3,3% Caucasian people of today)and to L91: 4,4%(Ötzi/Mediterranean Isles: Corsica, Sardinia..) - the absolute percentages are 8,6% / 0,5% / 0,4% / 0,5% - (total Y-G 11%)

this absolute domination within G of L497 in Tyrol could be from: a founder effect outside before arriving in Tyrol, or one in Tyrol, or a local drift among more differentiated Y-G's – but in mountains valleys like that local recent enough drifts would have given differnet dominant SNP according to the valleys? - so an already dominant G-L497 before arriving in Tyrol seems to me less uncertain (it is found in a huge part of Europe but at very low level) – the STRs show a local type of L497, with dense distribution merely in the western parts of Tyrol and with a coalescence calculated as 5000 BC (roughly) – the median STR type (~ modal) of Tyrol is found too in some regions as north-eastern Bulgaria - eastern Romania, Moldavia, East to carpathians (post-Starcevo?), Ibiza and W-Majorqua in front of it (Baleares), coastal eastern Catalonia (Spain), a spot in Piemonte and a region linking Veneto to whole Tyrol, a spot in eastern Sicilia intrigues me – Rootsi (according to the authors of this study) thought this HG of Y-G2a is linked to LBK: it makes sense for me too – so, no tight link with later I-Eans, only for somones? - the mountainous localisation and age confirms that – I remember some skeletal remnants of 'danubian mediterranean' phenotypes too in calcholitical cultures (neolithic+copper) and in Rhodanian culture in N-Italy and N-Catalonia under cultural influences of N-Italy – so a 'danubian' Y-G2a population, more or less crossed with others, could have reached Tyrol and N-Italy when an other Y-G2a one carrying an other mediterranean subptype, colonised Mediterranea by sea, the two of them at early neolithical times – the differences of phenotypes could be due to a) first micro-racialisation or first crossings mediated by females in Anatolia – b) much more crossings on the females side for the maritime Cardial Y-G2a bearers? The G-L497 in the Baelares islands seem being arrived there from Catalonia, by land before navigating, contrary to the bulk of G-L91's of Sardinia and Corsica who where true maritimes ones and cardial -

to conclude: austrian Y-G2a-L497 = néolithical for the most, not bronze age nor I-Eans, at this stage of my knowledge – (the Etruscan hypothesislost force too) -

&: the Y-G2a-L283-P16 is very seldom everywhere except around Caucasus: I think they were not the first providers of neolithical bans of Europe and I bet they always stayed rather in the northern versant of Caucasus – I modify my first opinion concerning Alani: they were surely more Y-R1a than Y-G2a – the today highsport of Y-G2a in Ossetians is not due to Alani -



as a whole, the heavy (19%) but poorly variated Y-R1b-U106, dominant more in West than in East Austria, associated with a not negligeable % of Y-I1 (12%), is for me definitely linked to Germanic populations (Völkerwanderungen), whoever the tribe -



the study I put a link to above is focused on East Tyrol – it tries to link current Y-DNA to ancient populations by studying ancient toponymes (pasture places names): very interesting idea!

The E-Tyrol were colonised by Germanics around the 5/6° centuries, but not in everyplace – but before them were Romance speakers and Slavic speakers that fought lastly in 610 – the romance language disapearred progressively, and at the 14° cetury it was reduced to some places – as a whole, they say, slavic local placenames were found in East and North E-Tyrol, even Northwest, and romances names in South and Southwest, near the Veneto fronteers except some isolated places in Kals Valley in North-Northeast -

as a whole today: 71% germanic names, 17% slavic names, 12% romance names -
whatever the generations, there is surprising facts to extract of this study -
as a whole, S-Tyrol has more Y-R1b than N-Tyrol (42,2% > 32,0%), but «slavic» has much more of it than «romance» - in «slavic», U106 as opposed to U152 is very stronger than in «romance» (here, no surpise, «slavic» is northernly placed – almost NO Y-R1a in «slavic»!!! opposed to intuition! -
globally in the two «slavic and «romance», Y-G2a is P15 (weakly usefull: upstream to Caucasus and C-Europe sorts) – I shall come back on this subject after some brainstorm!

thank you for information/analysis.
I ask the following
DYS390=22 for G ( or any other marker) is the largest at 75% of haplogroup G. It is only 1% of R1b. 92% of haplogroup T-L131

according to old and new updated Heyer study, this very rarely changes/mutates, can we say its neolithic european?

The Heyer study of 1997 recorded a mutation rate of zero for DYS390. Although the DYS390 marker has not exhibited a mutation rate as consistently low as DYS393 in other studies, the results of the Heyer study suggest that it is a relatively stable marker. As such, particular values of DYS390 may be acquired less often by random mutation, and therefore may be more likely to reflect a shared ancestry among the haplotypes that exhibit them.

The sense we get from these AMH variations is that they occur predominantly among the
Celts of continental Europe and their Teutonic brethren along the North Sea coast.

as per link below DYS390 starts from anatolia, through bulgaria , then through central europe and manly in alpine, italy and german lands
http://www.mymcgee.com/terrachart/Dys390InEurope.html

MOESAN
15-09-13, 15:24
thank you for information/analysis.
I ask the following
DYS390=22 for G ( or any other marker) is the largest at 75% of haplogroup G. It is only 1% of R1b. 92% of haplogroup T-L131

according to old and new updated Heyer study, this very rarely changes/mutates, can we say its neolithic european?

The Heyer study of 1997 recorded a mutation rate of zero for DYS390. Although the DYS390 marker has not exhibited a mutation rate as consistently low as DYS393 in other studies, the results of the Heyer study suggest that it is a relatively stable marker. As such, particular values of DYS390 may be acquired less often by random mutation, and therefore may be more likely to reflect a shared ancestry among the haplotypes that exhibit them.

The sense we get from these AMH variations is that they occur predominantly among the
Celts of continental Europe and their Teutonic brethren along the North Sea coast.

as per link below DYS390 starts from anatolia, through bulgaria , then through central europe and manly in alpine, italy and german lands
http://www.mymcgee.com/terrachart/Dys390InEurope.html


thanks, but I'm not sure I understand your point about DS390!?! (STR) you speak about AMH variations, which ones?
what link with Y-G? I missed something, sure - could you go further in details, please
waiting to read you, have a good afternoon - by the way, even if stable enough, DS390 is not immuable, I think

MOESAN
22-11-13, 23:38
to begin, thanks to SILE for a good link

Concerning Y-G (firstable) and Austria others HGs*:


*: a new article about East Tyrol (near Carinthia) separated from the big North Tyrol by the «italian» South Tyrol -
link:
www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0041885)



title: «Pasture Names with Romance and Slavic Roots Facilitate Dissection of Y Chromosome Variation in an Exclusively German Speaking Alpine Region»



concerning Y-G:

in Austrian Tyrol (as a whole) the dominant form: 75,6% of Y-G, is the G-P15>L32>L497 one, brother to M406 : 4,8% and cousin to L293 (>> P16: 3,3% Caucasian people of today)and to L91: 4,4%(Ötzi/Mediterranean Isles: Corsica, Sardinia..) - the absolute percentages are 8,6% / 0,5% / 0,4% / 0,5% - (total Y-G 11%)

this absolute domination within G of L497 in Tyrol could be from: a founder effect outside before arriving in Tyrol, or one in Tyrol, or a local drift among more differentiated Y-G's – but in mountains valleys like that local recent enough drifts would have given differnet dominant SNP according to the valleys? - so an already dominant G-L497 before arriving in Tyrol seems to me less uncertain (it is found in a huge part of Europe but at very low level) – the STRs show a local type of L497, with dense distribution merely in the western parts of Tyrol and with a coalescence calculated as 5000 BC (roughly) – the median STR type (~ modal) of Tyrol is found too in some regions as north-eastern Bulgaria - eastern Romania, Moldavia, East to carpathians (post-Starcevo?), Ibiza and W-Majorqua in front of it (Baleares), coastal eastern Catalonia (Spain), a spot in Piemonte and a region linking Veneto to whole Tyrol, a spot in eastern Sicilia intrigues me – Rootsi (according to the authors of this study) thought this HG of Y-G2a is linked to LBK: it makes sense for me too – so, no tight link with later I-Eans, only for somones? - the mountainous localisation and age confirms that – I remember some skeletal remnants of 'danubian mediterranean' phenotypes too in calcholitical cultures (neolithic+copper) and in Rhodanian culture in N-Italy and N-Catalonia under cultural influences of N-Italy – so a 'danubian' Y-G2a population, more or less crossed with others, could have reached Tyrol and N-Italy when an other Y-G2a one carrying an other mediterranean subptype, colonised Mediterranea by sea, the two of them at early neolithical times – the differences of phenotypes could be due to a) first micro-racialisation or first crossings mediated by females in Anatolia – b) much more crossings on the females side for the maritime Cardial Y-G2a bearers? The G-L497 in the Baelares islands seem being arrived there from Catalonia, by land before navigating, contrary to the bulk of G-L91's of Sardinia and Corsica who where true maritimes ones and cardial -

to conclude: austrian Y-G2a-L497 = néolithical for the most, not bronze age nor I-Eans, at this stage of my knowledge – (the Etruscan hypothesislost force too) -

&: the Y-G2a-L283-P16 is very seldom everywhere except around Caucasus: I think they were not the first providers of neolithical bans of Europe and I bet they always stayed rather in the northern versant of Caucasus – I modify my first opinion concerning Alani: they were surely more Y-R1a than Y-G2a – the today highsport of Y-G2a in Ossetians is not due to Alani -



as a whole, the heavy (19%) but poorly variated Y-R1b-U106, dominant more in West than in East Austria, associated with a not negligeable % of Y-I1 (12%), is for me definitely linked to Germanic populations (Völkerwanderungen), whoever the tribe -



the study I put a link to above is focused on East Tyrol – it tries to link current Y-DNA to ancient populations by studying ancient toponymes (pasture places names): very interesting idea!

The E-Tyrol were colonised by Germanics around the 5/6° centuries, but not in everyplace – but before them were Romance speakers and Slavic speakers that fought lastly in 610 – the romance language disapearred progressively, and at the 14° cetury it was reduced to some places – as a whole, they say, slavic local placenames were found in East and North E-Tyrol, even Northwest, and romances names in South and Southwest, near the Veneto fronteers except some isolated places in Kals Valley in North-Northeast -

as a whole today: 71% germanic names, 17% slavic names, 12% romance names -
whatever the generations, there is surprising facts to extract of this study -
as a whole, S-Tyrol has more Y-R1b than N-Tyrol (42,2% > 32,0%), but «slavic» has much more of it than «romance» - in «slavic», U106 as opposed to U152 is very stronger than in «romance» (here, no surpise, «slavic» is northernly placed – almost NO Y-R1a in «slavic»!!! opposed to intuition! -
globally in the two «slavic and «romance», Y-G2a is P15 (weakly usefull: upstream to Caucasus and C-Europe sorts) – I shall come back on this subject after some brainstorm!

I ANSWER TO ME/ no offense, Moesan!
short: it seems Slavs (Slovenes?) colonized the northern and central parts of East Tyrol before germanization (we know this germanization occurred late enough) but a) were only a ruling "elite" without demic impact b) were numerous and got back after sometime (defeated by Latins?) without too much crossings and mixing, leaving their pastures placenames (Slavs had the REPUTATION (based?) of for destroying and renaming) c)- = close to b) were sweaped out during the germanic colonization (all the way leaving romance population under germanic rulers, and also their placenames - d) a romance population immigrated under germanic domination??? (less sensible)

Sile
23-11-13, 02:45
I ANSWER TO ME/ no offense, Moesan!
short: it seems Slavs (Slovenes?) colonized the northern and central parts of East Tyrol before germanization (we know this germanization occurred late enough) but a) were only a ruling "elite" without demic impact b) were numerous and got back after sometime (defeated by Latins?) without too much crossings and mixing, leaving their pastures placenames (Slavs had the REPUTATION (based?) of for destroying and renaming) c)- = close to b) were sweaped out during the germanic colonization (all the way leaving romance population under germanic rulers, and also their placenames - d) a romance population immigrated under germanic domination??? (less sensible)

The slovenes must have arrived with the ostrogoths or behind them and the retreated once the germanic people came from the north into bavaria and then into modern Austria and slovenia. IMO it must be no more than 2 centuries if that, but carnico, friulian, ladin and rhaeto languages where spoken there and are still spoken there today, so how much influence did these slovenes have...........maybe it was onlya small ruling party, which forced the name changes

epoch
10-12-13, 22:47
But how can you explain that the haplogroup G is rather frequent on the
fishermen island of Urk in the IJsselmeer in the Netherlands? The inhabitants
are pure descendants of the ancient Dutchmen, in-breeding and 85% have light eyes, but more than 50% have dark hair. I suppose that they are mostly Borreby and Bruenn/Aurignac descendants. They cannot have Alanic ancestors.

Y-DNA is being transferred from fathers to sons only. I reckon that makes it more prone to changes than any other genetic marker. If a father has only daughters - or if only daughters of his offspring survive long enough to have children - his autosomal DNA will continue to spread among the population. However, his Y-DNA will not. And the chance that fathers will have only daughters is not minimal, as our current monarch shows. That may indicate that the amount of certain Y-DNA, especially in small communities, may not represent the actual amount of input in that community by the original bearers of that haplogroup.

MOESAN
12-12-13, 20:40
OK by the way, Alani were described by more than one as BLOND people, not dominantly DARK haired ones! but staying on the Y-DNA question (and its loose links with autosomals) I think true Alani were not Y-G2 for the most, surely more ont the Y-R1a side

Goga
12-12-13, 20:59
OK by the way, Alani were described by more than one as BLOND people, not dominantly DARK haired ones! but staying on the Y-DNA question (and its loose links with autosomals) I think true Alani were not Y-G2 for the most, surely more ont the Y-R1a sideWhat about I2a? It's possible that blond hair is actually from I2a folks or maybe not even from Y-DNA at all, but from mtDNA of females. I'm starting to believe that blond hair and white skin has nothing to do with R1a, because ancestor of R1a*, R1* was dark...

MOESAN
03-01-14, 22:26
What about I2a? It's possible that blond hair is actually from I2a folks or maybe not even from Y-DNA at all, but from mtDNA of females. I'm starting to believe that blond hair and white skin has nothing to do with R1a, because ancestor of R1a*, R1* was dark...

I'm not sure it will be useful for the remote origin of y-G2a but
I was speaking about Alani a supposed iranic people of the steppes, and based upon the fact the most of steppic I-Ean tribes men had Y-R1a, I supposed (without any proof) the HG Y-R1a was heavier among them than Y-G2a, without exclude a certain % of this last HG
I had not in mind that these steppic I-Ean analysed had AND mostly Y-R1a AND mostly fair hair, but it is a fact if not my point in my previous post -

the genes for pigmentation and the Y-HG could not be linked one to another at the very beginning but statistically become linked at a point of History -
don't forget too that if Y-R1* was dark pigmented, light pigmentation arose later among dark pigmented people so some depigmented Y-R1* could give birth later to lighter populations of Y-R1a or Y-R1b (not by force all of them)- or marry with a lot of light pigmented females previously linked to an other Y-HG and progressively take its light pigmentation - by the way I doubt proto-historic Y-I2a were mostly light pigmented for hair -

adamo
15-01-14, 12:51
G is found in 10-25% of males across all Iran and into Afghanistan/Pakistan, it also has the same presence in Azerbaijan, Armenia, Georgia region (Caucasus) and the Levantine coast. The Arabian peninsula and the central Middle East (Iraq,Syria) seem largely unaffected. This leads me to believe that G either originated near the Pamir knot region (Pakistan/Afghanistan) or on the Iranian peninsula itself, before migrating towards the Caucasus region heavily. From there the P15 branch shot towards south-Central Europe (Sardinia/southern italy). Look at the G map on Wikipedia, I am postulating an Iranian origin (G-M201) with a heavy movement solely towards the Caucasus region (G2a) with a small Neolithic arrival to south-central Mediterranean Europe.

Kardu
15-01-14, 17:46
G2a1a1 seems to have come to Georgia from the North, from Europe most probably. Another widespread G2a in the Caucasus - G2a3b seems to be local or Anatolian.

adamo
15-01-14, 18:01
Maybe from the southernmost Caucasus region just to the north of Georgia were Abkhazia and Ossetia would lie?

nr9
14-05-15, 19:46
G2a seems to be older than R1a in Europe.

Fluffy
29-05-15, 17:33
G2a seems to be older than R1a in Europe.

Yes it was in Europe before R1a, that's what ancient DNA tells us so far.

Fluffy
29-05-15, 17:35
OK by the way, Alani were described by more than one as BLOND people, not dominantly DARK haired ones! but staying on the Y-DNA question (and its loose links with autosomals) I think true Alani were not Y-G2 for the most, surely more ont the Y-R1a side

DNA from the River Don tells us otherwise.

Fluffy
06-07-15, 22:19
OK by the way, Alani were described by more than one as BLOND people, not dominantly DARK haired ones! but staying on the Y-DNA question (and its loose links with autosomals) I think true Alani were not Y-G2 for the most, surely more ont the Y-R1a side


And this is based on what?

TheHistorian2
30-04-17, 00:41
Moesan, physical appearance is mostly influenced by admixture. R1b has a rather high occurence amongst people of Chad, Cameroon and Mali, yet they don't physically look similar to there European cousins, subclades aside.

If they lived amongst R1a populations as they did in the North Western Caucasus and the steppes of South Eastern Ukraine, then there is a big chance these groups interacted and mixed.

TheHistorian2
30-04-17, 00:45
In a study conducted in 2014 by V.V. Ilyinskyon on bone fragments from 10 Alanic burials on the Don River, DNA could be abstracted from a total of 7. 4 of them turned out as belonging to yDNA Haplogroup G2 and 6 of them had mtDNA I. The fact that many of the samples share the same y- and mtDNA raises the possibility that the tested individuals belonged to the same tribe or even were close relatives. Nevertheless, this is a strong argument for direct Alan ancestry of Ossetians and against the hypothesis that Ossetians are alanized Caucasic Speakers, since the major Haplogroup among Ossetians is G2 either.
In 2015 the Institute of Archaeology in Moscow conducted researches on various Sarmato-Alan and Saltovo-Mayaki culture Kurgan burials. In this analyses, the two Alan samples from 4th to 6th century AD turned out with yDNAs G2a-P15 and R1a-z94, while from the three Sarmatian samples from 2nd to 3rd century AD two turned out both with yDNA J1-M267 and one with R1a.[And the three Saltovo-Mayaki samples from 8th to 9th century AD turned out with yDNAs G, J2a-M410 and R1a-z94 respectively[