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how yes no 2
30-10-10, 21:51
Let's pay attention first to G2a haplogroup ... http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif
it is obviously slightly more G2a than the rest of Great Britain..
there is strong corellation of G2a spread with spread of Welsh speakers
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Siaradwyr_y_Gymraeg_ym_Mhrif_Ardaloedd_Cymru.png/300px-Siaradwyr_y_Gymraeg_ym_Mhrif_Ardaloedd_Cymru.png

Welsh (Cymraeg or y Gymraeg, pronounced [kəmˈrɑːɨɡ, ə ɡəmˈrɑːɨɡ]) is a member of the Brythonic branch of the Celtic languages spoken natively in Wales...
..
The name "Welsh" originated as an exonym given to its speakers by the Anglo-Saxons, meaning "foreign speech" (see Walha). The native term for the language is Cymraeg, and Cymru for "Wales."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_language
ellevated G2a can pinpoint that perhaps relation between Cymru and Cimmerians is not just linguistic...

According to the Greek historian Herodotus, of the 5th century BC, the Cimmerians inhabited the region north of the Caucasus and the Black Sea during the 8th and 7th centuries BC, in what is now Ukraine and Russia.
...
The Assyrian archeological record shows that the Cimmerians, and the land of Gamir, were located not far from Urartu, south of the Caucasus.[3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimmerians

how yes no 2
30-10-10, 22:23
spread of Welsh language seems to correlate fairly well with two Celtic tribes: Ordovices and Gangani, while it looks as if Deceangli and Demetae are not original speakers of welsh branch of Celtic languages
and has partly became that only through process of cultural domination of Welsh speaking celtic tribes...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/86/Wales.pre-Roman.jpg/300px-Wales.pre-Roman.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cf/Siaradwyr_y_Gymraeg_ym_Mhrif_Ardaloedd_Cymru.png/300px-Siaradwyr_y_Gymraeg_ym_Mhrif_Ardaloedd_Cymru.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/af/CymruLlwythi.PNG/250px-CymruLlwythi.PNG

another thing that sets a part Wales from most of the Great Britain is
E1b1b1a2 (E M78-V13) haplogroup
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird_files/image022.jpghttp://www.jogg.info/32/bird_files/image028.jpg
hotspot of E-V13 seems to correlate with the position of tribe Deceangli.. I could imagine that originally this tribe was connecting green areas from east to west coast of UK, but that major parts of it were assimilated by other tribes..
judging by the spread of Welsh language, Deceangli were originally not Welsh speakers...
judging by the spread of E-V13 it was due to Deceangli whose areas were partly conquered by Ordovices... Ordovices assimilated E-V13 together with remaining Deceangli

spread of E-V13 in Europe looks stg. like this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png/800px-HgE1b1b1a2.png

If there is an island of it as far as Portugal, I do not see reason why islands of it in UK could not be remains of pre-celtic tribes...

However, Steven Bird in his article suggests that this E-V13 origin from Roman soldiers from Thrace...
http://volgagermanbrit.us/documents/bird.pdf

how yes no 2
31-10-10, 02:06
The Deceangli or Deceangi were one of the Celtic tribes living in Britain, prior to the Roman invasion of the island. The tribe lived mainly in what is now north-east Wales, though it is uncertain whether their territory covered only the modern counties of Flintshire, Denbighshire and part of Cheshire in what is now present day England or whether it extended further west.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceangli
judging by E-V13, I would say it extended further west and also further south...


Assaults on the Welsh tribes was made under the legate Publius Ostorius Scapula who attacked the Deceangli about 48 AD. They appear to have surrendered with little resistance, unlike the Silures and the Ordovices who put up a long and bitter resistance to Roman rule.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceangli
they have no reasons to fight Romans, since they are already conquered by Celts...they do not defend own country, cause they do not have it..


No Roman town is known to have existed in the territory of this tribe, though the auxiliary fort of Canovium (Caerhun) was probably in their lands and may have had a civilian settlement around it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deceangli
there was no Roman settlement in their lands, so the hotspot of E-V13 probably has nothing to do with Roman soldiers..

Maciamo
31-10-10, 10:00
Let's pay attention top Wales now... as it is obviously slightly more G2a than the rest of Great Britain..

there is strong corellation of G2a spread with spread of Welsh speakers

This is easy to explain. The Welsh are descended from the inhabitants of Roman Britain (so ancient Wales + England). G2a was higher in Roman Britain because of the Gaulish and Roman populations that settled in Britain at least since the La Tène period (tribes such as the Parisi or the Atrebates).

But more importantly, the Anglo-Saxons and the Danes had very little G2a compared to the Roman Britons, and their conquest of England effectively lowered the percentage of G2a there. Simple maths.

The same applies for E1b1b. Pockets seem to have survived in places that the Anglo-Saxons were less interested in; not just mountainous Wales, but also the Peak District and the Norfolk Broads (marshy wetlands). In other words, the Anglo-Saxons took all the good agricultural land and left what they judged as bad lands to the original inhabitants.

how yes no 2
31-10-10, 13:27
This is easy to explain. The Welsh are descended from the inhabitants of Roman Britain (so ancient Wales + England). G2a was higher in Roman Britain because of the Gaulish and Roman populations that settled in Britain at least since the La Tène period (tribes such as the Parisi or the Atrebates).
it does not sound easy to me...
G2a seems uniformly spread except in Wales..
while Celtic tribes from Gaul didnot settle only in Wales

But more importantly, the Anglo-Saxons and the Danes had very little G2a compared to the Roman Britons, and their conquest of England effectively lowered the percentage of G2a there. Simple maths.
ok, this seems as good explanantion for lack of G2a in east and central England..
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif
if most of UK is dominantly settled by Anglo-Saxons and Danes, and only Wales is dominantly settled by Gauls..
But Belgae in continental part lived in area with higher G2a density, and in UK in area with lower G2a density..it would be natural to expect that Belgae in UK also give G2a peak.. lack of that peak pinpoints that in fact peak of G2a in Wales needs deeper explanation related to particular tribes that settled area, since they had larger G2a than average tribes from Gaul...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Hallstatt_LaTene.png

The same applies for E1b1b. Pockets seem to have survived in places that the Anglo-Saxons were less interested in; not just mountainous Wales, but also the Peak District and the Norfolk Broads (marshy wetlands). In other words, the Anglo-Saxons took all the good agricultural land and left what they judged as bad lands to the original inhabitants.
This explains well what happened with E-V13... different waves of invaders (not only Anglo-Saxons and Danes, but also Celts) took over better living space.. in fact islands of E- V13 can probably pinpoint pre-celtic tribes..

how yes no 2
31-10-10, 13:43
http://www.jogg.info/32/bird_files/image028.jpghttp://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/images/ironage_native_britain_tribes.gif
01: Caledones
02: Taexali
03: Carvetii
04: Venicones
05: Epidii
06: Damnonii
07: Novantae
08: Selgovae
09: Votadini
10: Brigantes
11: Parisi
12: Cornovii
13: Deceangli
14: Ordovices
15: Corieltauvi
16: Iceni
17: Demetae
18: Catuvellauni
19: Silures
20: Dubunni
21: Dumnonii
22: Durotriges
23: Belgae
24: Atrebates
25: Regni
26: Cantiaci
27: Trinovantes

It looks to me that Steven Bird have lied when he was claiming in his paper that there is no correlation between tribes and spread of E-V13, and that thus it can be explained only by settlements of retired Roman soldiers

I would say 13 (Deceangli), 12(Cornovi) and 16 (Iceni) were most E-V13, than 22(Durotriges) and 27(Trinovantes) somewhat less E-V13 and 2(Taexali),5 (Epidii), 3(Carvetii), 9(Votadini) even less...
these were probably first settlers... and in fact in this order of settlement... with Deceangli, Cornovi and Iceni being dominantly E-V13 wave, while next waves acquired E-V13 by assimilating previous inhabitants both in UK and continental Europe (before settling in UK)

I would expect that I2a2-Isles came with some of them...
My guess is Carvetti since tribal name is the same as for Croats (Hrvati in Croatian)
They might have arrive there as part of ancient Veneti that were present in Britanny..


In fact position of Carvetti matches the position of M26 (I2a1) in UK same as position of Veneti matches position of M26 in Britanny, as can be seen here:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png