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how yes no 2
30-10-10, 23:21
By comparing folowing two images showing distribution of pre-celitc and celtic tribes in Iberia, and distribution of E-V13 group in Europe, I would say that pre-celtic IE tribes in Iberia carried substantial amount of E-V13

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg/727px-Iberia_300BC.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png/800px-HgE1b1b1a2.png

since this E-V13 in Iberia is an island, I would say that E-V13 people were pushed out of most of southwest Europe by newly arrived wave... I guess that wave was R1b

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/R1bmap.JPG
lack of R1b around Bosnia region of Balkans signalize that this was stronghold of other haplogroup(s)...
it could have been I2a2, but looking at variances of I2a2 and E-V13
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/images/ejhg2008249f4.jpg
it was more likely stronghold of E-V13 that has later moved further south
lack of R1b above Black sea is due to stronghold of both I2a2 and E-V13
however spread of R1b anywhere near Balkan and Black sea was only rather recent development related to the movements of celtic tribes...
much before that waves of other haplogrupes arrived to Europe...

how yes no 2
30-10-10, 23:56
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a4/GlobalR1a1a.png/800px-GlobalR1a1a.png
judging by its fairly even spread in Scandinavia, R1a was in Scandinavia before haplogroup I


looking at R1a in Great Britain and Ireland... it is on very north of both islands
suggesting that it was pushed completely to north by subsequent waves of conquerors..
R1a must have been amongst first settlers of Great Britain and Ireland..


I think R1a was a continuum from India to Poland (passing around Caspian sea and not through Caucasus) until it was cut into 2 parts by ancestors of Scythians - carriers of haplogroup C3...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26058
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Haplogrupo_C3_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG/800px-Haplogrupo_C3_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG

how yes no 2
31-10-10, 00:35
haplogroup I are Germanic tribes originating from area Kerman/Germania (sometimes named Aria) in Iran and Sarmatian tribes also originating from Iran


http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/
I would say this distribution shows passage of I from areas bellow Black sea and bellow Caspian sea to Europe through Caucasus. distribution indicates that the the passage is made next to the shores of Caspian sea which is logical route since east of it is mountain range...
furthermore, based on shape of its current distribution, and assuming general direction of movement towards north, I would dare to guess that perhaps the spread towards north started from iranian province of Kerman from where its carriers moved towards north, north-east, north-west and south-east...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Locator_map_Iran_Kerman_Province.png/250px-Locator_map_Iran_Kerman_Province.png

Quote:
Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania", "Kermania", "Germania" and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat. Geographers have recorded Kerman's ancient name as "Go'asheer" (Bardesheer).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerman_province
the province of Kerman is more or less same as area related to term Aria, which explains Germans calling themselves Aryans
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/07/Greco-BactrianKingdomMap.jpg/800px-Greco-BactrianKingdomMap.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Greco-BactrianKingdomMap.jpg

The term Aryan derives from the Sanskrit word (ā́rya) आर्य (meaning:Noble), which derived from arya, the original Indo-Iranian autonym. Also, the word Iran is the Persian word for land/place of the Aryan[17] (see also Iranian peoples).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aryanism#Aryanism
haplogroup I1 has entered Europe via Caucasus

distribution of haplogroup I seems to have arrived in two waves that correspond to German and Sarmatian tribes
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png
first wave was probably only I1
while Sarmatian wave brought I2 mixed with second wave of R1a
some Sarmatian tribes moved to live in Germany
e.g. for Veneti/Veneds we know that


Roman historian Pliny the Elder in Natural History (Liber IV: 96-97) mentions a tribe called Sarmatian Venedi (Latin Sarmatae Venedi). Subsequently, Tacitus in Germania (46) mentions Venethi; when comparing these to Germani and Sarmatae, however, Tacitus associates them with the former, stating that their habits are different from those of the Sarmatae.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
similar story probably holds for Vandals who were probably I2a1 as attested by increased values of I2a1 in places of their last settlements (triangle Sevilla-Huelva-Cordoba in area of Andalusia in Spain and island of Sardinia)
see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25872 for details


haplogroup I2 has upon arrival to Europe or even before mixed with R1a..in fact mixture with R1a can be explained with knowing that in iranian lands R1a was situated at most east in areas of east Iran, Sogdia and Bactria..

comparing position of Pashtuns with small peak of I inside R1 area of Afganistan and Pakistan
http://www.heritage.org/static/reportimages/0F3F7F2CDF5E88D351EF61EB45193E1B.jpg
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

allows us to guess that I2, today dominant in south Slavs (Serbs and Croats), might be related to the small peak of I in that area...and that perhaps Pashtun tribe Sarbans is related to name Serbs..
on following map Pashtun Sarbans are in green
http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Pashtun_Confederacies_sm.jpg
I would say it is perfect match

common origin from haplogroup I also explains similarity of names Sardinia/Sarbans/Serbi/Suebi/Swede for culturally and linguistically different nations of today that origin from haplogroup I

how yes no 2
31-10-10, 04:08
In fact, there was also early settlement by I2 that came to Europe before other I haplogroups and probably before most R1b (except perhaps the Basque which were first wave of R1b)

Veneti in Britanny do enter Britain as part of the Celtic wave...

they probably arrived in Europe as a first wave of I2 (carrying both I2a1 and I2a2), in more or less same time as first R1b settlers (Basques).. and before other I haplogroups...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26060

their origin is however the same with Sarmatian I2a1 and I2a2 carriers that came much later carrying the same tribal names - Veneti/Venedi and Vandali that settled in Germany
if you look map of haplogroup I
you may notice that M26 (I2a1) in Britanny in France matches pretty well the position of Veneti

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Gaul%2C_1st_century_BC.gif/643px-Gaul%2C_1st_century_BC.gif

Veneti in Britanny were probably celticized with spread of Hallstat La-Tenne culture...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Hallstatt_LaTene.png

lack of R1a in west France indicates that the first Veneti came as I2 but without R1a
while later Sarmatian Veneti might have been mixed with R1a already before entering Europe as attested by both R1a and I2 in both areas of Adriatic and Vistula Veneti... in area of Vistula Veneti besides I2a2 was also I2a1 of Vandals that eventually moved with sarmatian Alans and germanic Suebes to Iberian peninsula where they settled south most part known today as Andalusia...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=361411#post361411

Haganus
31-10-10, 13:31
Please can you give proves that R1a was present in Scandinavia during the
Mesolithicum? I thought that it has its origin in Central Asia. But if you can
prove that R1a was present during the Mesolithicum, may be the French/Spanish Cro-Magnon and Aurignac men had the haplogroup R1a during the Ice Age.
But I thought that the original Scandinavians (the Komsa and Fosna culture) had the haplogroup I which originated in southwest France during the Ice-Age.

how yes no 2
31-10-10, 14:00
Please can you give proves that R1a was present in Scandinavia during the
Mesolithicum? I thought that it has its origin in Central Asia. But if you can
prove that R1a was present during the Mesolithicum, may be the French/Spanish Cro-Magnon and Aurignac men had the haplogroup R1a during the Ice Age.
But I thought that the original Scandinavians (the Komsa and Fosna culture) had the haplogroup I which originated in southwest France during the Ice-Age.

origin of haplogroup I in Europe was just a bad assumprtion,,,at that time it was thought it can be forund only in Europe (since few studies for Asia were yet not showing it) and since there was difference in spread between I2a2 and I1 it was supposed that they as being both in Europe must have been separated by some cataclismic event for a long time...so they came up with Ice-age explanation...it is known that there were 3 ice-age refuges: Balkan, Iberia and area above Black sea... since results was showing I2a2 was owerwhelming on Balkan they concluded that it spent ice-age there... so they assumed that I1 spent Ice-age west of it, thuis in Iberian peninsula..but in fact it can be easily proved that I1 came to Iberian peninsula mostly with Suebes and secondly with Visigoths...and I2a2 probably arrived to Balkan only recently with Serbs and Croats.... so their assumption was just a bad idea...

as for R1a being there before I, well take a look at spread of both in Scandinavia... R1a has fairly equal spread, which means area was not inhabeted when they arrived, and I is much more dense on south of it which indicated they have arrived after area was already settled and could not pushed in deeper in the settled area...... similarly R1a in very north of UK and Ireland indicates probable early settlement and being pushed to the north by subsequent waves of settlers...

that is enough of the proof for me... if you want numbers and calculations than wait for few years till there is some scientist who will understand that I just came to Europe from Iran same as other Europe haplogroups and that that arrival was not so far in past as previously thought...

bud
31-10-10, 14:49
R1A in Scotland and Northern Ireland could have been brought over by Norwegian Vikings. Not necessarily because of being pushed north by southern invasions.

how yes no 2
31-10-10, 15:17
R1A in Scotland and Northern Ireland could have been brought over by Norwegian Vikings. Not necessarily because of being pushed north by southern invasions.
true, that makes sense...
since they arrived with ships they wanted to keep territories close to sea, so they did choose to spread from north UK to north Ireland and not to go deeper south in UK...
however uniform spread of R1a in Scandinavia still indicates that R1a settled there before haplogroup I

how yes no 2
21-11-10, 01:05
true, that makes sense...
since they arrived with ships they wanted to keep territories close to sea, so they did choose to spread from north UK to north Ireland and not to go deeper south in UK...
however uniform spread of R1a in Scandinavia still indicates that R1a settled there before haplogroup I

actually, it seems that R1a arrived there via sea with Scythians via Iberian peninsula...

this is indicated by Scotish legend of origin from Scythian tribe that first travelled via sea to Iberian peninsula and later to Scotland... story is easy to confirm by same tribal name Caledonii appearing in both Iberia (as Caladuni) and in Scotland...

(look at http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26103 for details)

but this in fact also reveals why is there island of E-V13 in Portugal...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png/800px-HgE1b1b1a2.png

it is not that E-V13 was first there...
it came via sea, probably from somewhere in Balkan, Greece, Black sea area...
it came with Scythian tribes (among them Caladuni, Seurbi, Helleni...)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg/727px-Iberia_300BC.svg.png

click on link bellow to zoom
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

how yes no 2
21-11-10, 12:14
I think R1a was a continuum from India to Poland (passing around Caspian sea and not through Caucasus) until it was cut into 2 parts by ancestors of Scythians - carriers of haplogroup C3...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26058
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Haplogrupo_C3_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG/800px-Haplogrupo_C3_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG

Actually, this was very wrong assumption..
it turned out that Scythians were R1a, while C3 is due to spread of Mongols during the age of Dzingis Kahn

for details look at
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26058


in short, besides ancient DNA of Scythians showing R1a as dominant, this is also easily seen by observing match between R1a and Indo-Scythians

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251231666063/home/R1a.png
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Indo-ScythiansMap.jpg/501px-Indo-ScythiansMap.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Scythians

spread of C haplogroup fits settlements during Genghis Kahn conquer...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1f/Gengis_Khan_empire-en.svg/800px-Gengis_Khan_empire-en.svg.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genghis_Khan

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251223701070/home/C.png
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/

Yorkie
21-11-10, 13:36
origin of haplogroup I in Europe was just a bad assumprtion,,,at that time it was thought it can be forund only in Europe (since few studies for Asia were yet not showing it) and since there was difference in spread between I2a2 and I1 it was supposed that they as being both in Europe must have been separated by some cataclismic event for a long time...so they came up with Ice-age explanation...it is known that there were 3 ice-age refuges: Balkan, Iberia and area above Black sea... since results was showing I2a2 was owerwhelming on Balkan they concluded that it spent ice-age there... so they assumed that I1 spent Ice-age west of it, thuis in Iberian peninsula..but in fact it can be easily proved that I1 came to Iberian peninsula mostly with Suebes and secondly with Visigoths...and I2a2 probably arrived to Balkan only recently with Serbs and Croats.... so their assumption was just a bad idea...

as for R1a being there before I, well take a look at spread of both in Scandinavia... R1a has fairly equal spread, which means area was not inhabeted when they arrived, and I is much more dense on south of it which indicated they have arrived after area was already settled and could not pushed in deeper in the settled area...... similarly R1a in very north of UK and Ireland indicates probable early settlement and being pushed to the north by subsequent waves of settlers...

that is enough of the proof for me... if you want numbers and calculations than wait for few years till there is some scientist who will understand that I just came to Europe from Iran same as other Europe haplogroups and that that arrival was not so far in past as previously thought...

You are certainly producing some interesting, thoughtful material on the forum. For that you deserve praise.

Re levels and distribution of R1a1 in Britain, especially Scotland and Northern Ireland; the vast bulk of R1a1 in Britain, according to population geneticists such as Jim Wilson, is from Norwegian Vikings not Mesolithic settlers.

Re I1 [I have a great interest in I1 as my Maternal Grandfather was I1-Norse]; the foundation place was likely to have been near Denmark rather than either the Balkans or Iberia, and this was post-LGM, according to Underhill, Nordtvedt and others.

Re order of populating Europe; I clades were in Europe before R1b, R1a1. For example, M26 I2a1, I2b1a, and L161 I2a2b-Isles all hit the British shores long before any R1b or R1a1.

how yes no 2
24-12-10, 02:20
Origin of peoples in a context of DNA genealogy is an assignment of them to a particular tribe (all members of which belong to a certain haplogroup) or its branch (a lineage), initiated in a genealogical sense by a common ancestor and an estimation of a time span between the common ancestor and its current descendants. We have developed an approach to kinetics of haplotype mutations in non-recombinant segments of the Y-chromosome and illustrated it with a number of haplotype series related to various populations (timespans to common ancestors shown as years before the present): Basques R1b1b2 (4,050), near thirty of European countries R1a1 (between 4,100 and 4,825), India R1a1 (3,675), the Arabian Peninsula R1a1 (3,750), South India Chenchu R1a1 (3,200 and 350, two lineages), bearers of so-called Cohen Modal Haplotype (CMH) J1 (4,000 and 1,050, two lineages), and CMH J2 (1,400), Arabian CMH J1 (9,000), Bulgarian and Croatian Gypsies H1 (575 and 1,125, respectively), Polynesians C2 (800), South African Lemba (625), the oldest Balkan R1a1 population (11,600), and Native Americans Q (16,000). Some of these findings are supported by independent estimates.
http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1

R1a originates from Balkan, it has spread to Arabian peninsula slightly before then to India...
Basques moved to current place only around 2000 BC
native Americans entered America around 14 000 BC
Gypsies entered Croatia much earlier than Bulgaria (?)

StillSRB
28-12-10, 03:22
R1a originates from Balkan, it has spread to Arabian peninsula slightly before then to India...
Basques moved to current place only around 2000 BC
native Americans entered America around 14 000 BC
Gypsies entered Croatia much earlier than Bulgaria (?) This seems very interesting and changes a lot of what I thought.

Does the author assume that the mutations are happening in a linear incremental pattern or is he just giving the averages of the mutations based on the number of them? If its the latter it makes much harder to predict when the mutations took place, because 3 could happen within 5 generations and then none in a thousand years. Please clarify this for me if possible.

how yes no 2
28-12-10, 14:30
This seems very interesting and changes a lot of what I thought.

Does the author assume that the mutations are happening in a linear incremental pattern or is he just giving the averages of the mutations based on the number of them? If its the latter it makes much harder to predict when the mutations took place, because 3 could happen within 5 generations and then none in a thousand years. Please clarify this for me if possible.

I do not know to answer your question, as I didnot read the paper, I have copy pasted abstract which states his conclusions... btw. I am not expert in the area, this is just occasional hobby for me, as I am very curious to see whether genetics can unveil some unkown history..

StillSRB
30-12-10, 10:43
I do not know to answer your question, as I didnot read the paper, I have copy pasted abstract which states his conclusions... btw. I am not expert in the area, this is just occasional hobby for me, as I am very curious to see whether genetics can unveil some unkown history..

Well I skimmed through the pdf file in the link you posted, and it seems very interesting. I'm not an expert on the subject either, but Klyosov seems to know what he's talking about. If correct, it makes my thoughts and predictions seem foolish. Think about it instead of E-v13 or I2a2 being the oldest pre-glacial haplogroup in the Balkans, it ends up being R1a. Which anyone would assume came from the migration of the slavs, funny stuff. Anyway, thanks for the post. If you have any other interesting articles on haplogroups or their origins please don't hesitate to post.

how yes no 2
06-01-11, 02:26
didnot read it yet, but seems as an interesting article that may give a clue about order of populating Europe
http://www.pnas.org/content/94/15/7719.full (http://www.pnas.org/content/94/15/7719.full)


http://www.pnas.org/content/94/15/7719/F2.large.jpg