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Haganus
31-10-10, 18:15
Some months ago I read that an Archaeological Institute of the University of Kiel
will publish the results of their research of skeletons of the Megalithic and Globular
Culture in Germany. Especially their hair- and eyes colours and haplogroups.
Who does know if these results have been published?
Maybe it will be proved that the haplogroup R1a was present in Germany and Scandinavia before the Indo-Germanic people's arrival. It is thought that the R1a has
its origin in the Ukraine during the Ice Age. The people of the Ahrenburg Culture (Ham-
burg-Jutland) came from the Ukraine and they can bring the haplogroup R1a to the
North. See wipedia.

Haganus
02-11-10, 00:04
Some months ago I read that University of Kiel (Germany) was making a
research of skeletons of the Funnel Beaker and Megalithic men. They will
discover what kind of haplogroup and even what hair- and eyes colour
they had. It is possible that haplogroup R1a was present in West-Europe
before the Indo-European's arrival. It is assumed that the men of the
Ahrenburg Culture near Hamburg had the haplogroup R1a and originated
in the Ukraine. Who does know more about the result of this research?

willy
02-11-10, 00:33
Some months ago I read that University of Kiel (Germany) was making a
research of skeletons of the Funnel Beaker and Megalithic men. They will
discover what kind of haplogroup and even what hair- and eyes colour
they had. It is possible that haplogroup R1a was present in West-Europe
before the Indo-European's arrival. It is assumed that the men of the
Ahrenburg Culture near Hamburg had the haplogroup R1a and originated
in the Ukraine. Who does know more about the result of this research?
R1b1b2 and R1a have a large distribution over Europe WEST and EAST they are from a paleolithic origin the Indo European is a culture who appeared somewhere around the Caspian sea only some tribes (R1a and others ..) were involved to the bronze and the horse domestication their influence was very huge but not their specific subclades ..this why R1a is not equal to earlier Indo Europeans ..some J2 were also included in these earlier I-E .

Maciamo
02-11-10, 10:04
Some months ago I read that an Archaeological Institute of the University of Kiel
will publish the results of their research of skeletons of the Megalithic and Globular
Culture in Germany. Especially their hair- and eyes colours and haplogroups.
Who does know if these results have been published?
Maybe it will be proved that the haplogroup R1a was present in Germany and Scandinavia before the Indo-Germanic people's arrival. It is thought that the R1a has
its origin in the Ukraine during the Ice Age. The people of the Ahrenburg Culture (Ham-
burg-Jutland) came from the Ukraine and they can bring the haplogroup R1a to the
North. See wipedia.

I read about it too and even saved the link (http://www.monument.ufg.uni-kiel.de/projekte/abstammung-und-genetik/) in my bookmarks. The results were supposed to be published in August. However the page doesn't seem to have been updated since the launch of the project. So I guess there are so serious delays or the project has been discarded altogether due to technical difficulties. This was the study I was the most looking forward to in the last 2 years. They planned on testing hundreds of Y-DNA and mtDNA samples ranging from the Neolithic Funnelbeaker Culture (TRB), which would have confirmed that R1a and R1b were not yet present in the region at that time. That's really a shame.

willy
03-11-10, 00:40
I read about it too and even saved the link (http://www.monument.ufg.uni-kiel.de/projekte/abstammung-und-genetik/) in my bookmarks. The results were supposed to be published in August. However the page doesn't seem to have been updated since the launch of the project. So I guess there are so serious delays or the project has been discarded altogether due to technical difficulties. This was the study I was the most looking forward to in the last 2 years. They planned on testing hundreds of Y-DNA and mtDNA samples ranging from the Neolithic Funnelbeaker Culture (TRB), which would have confirmed that R1a and R1b were not yet present in the region at that time. That's really a shame.
Well .. R1a and R1b were in Europe during the Neolithic for its huge part maybe before ? thats the only way to understand this large distribution the demographic successful nothing to do with a Indo European invasion . First R1a in the Slavic countries are not the same R1a found in India the time shift does not really match with the Indo European period . The neolithic migration on Europe is also very consistent for R1b1b2 from Anatolia to the North WEST .

LeBrok
03-11-10, 06:38
If it comes to Slavic R1a it's almost clear of N hg, unlike Baltic R1a or R1a in Asia. It means that Slavic tribe was sheltered in center of Europe since Battle Axe culture about 5000 years.

willy
03-11-10, 11:50
The mysterious thing is the split between R1b and R1a if one people name Indo Europeans came to western Europe and to the Baltic countries from Central Europe I cant understand why there is R1b1b2 on the WEST and R1A to the EAST ? there is not an homogeneous distribution on Europe ? This is why R1b1b2 was in western Europe long time before the Indo European culture and all studies come in that way . R1a is not clear at all as we know the Slavic people R1a have nothing to do with the Indians for this Indo European period but surely long time before evidently

how yes no 2
03-11-10, 22:09
The mysterious thing is the split between R1b and R1a if one people name Indo Europeans came to western Europe and to the Baltic countries from Central Europe I cant understand why there is R1b1b2 on the WEST and R1A to the EAST ? there is not an homogeneous distribution on Europe ? This is why R1b1b2 was in western Europe long time before the Indo European culture and all studies come in that way . R1a is not clear at all as we know the Slavic people R1a have nothing to do with the Indians for this Indo European period but surely long time before evidently
I think first was E1b1b and J2b2, than Basque R1b and some I2a1, than big wave of R1b, followed by big wave of R1a, than I1, perhaps another wave of R1a and much later I2a2...

G is interesting indicator as it is absent on north and in Basques... it came with people who came via Asia minor and Caucasus, but not with people who went around Caspian sea or from north Asia... ans also probably not with people who were pushed out from Asia minor by the spread of Hittite empire or who moved out before it.. and that might be E1b1b, J2b2, Basque and I2a1

how yes no 2
04-11-10, 23:17
clusterisation of samples

from "Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe"
Amalia Diaz-Lacavaa, Maja Waliera, Sascha Willuweitb, Thomas F. Wienkera, Rolf Fimmersa, Max P. Baura, and Lutz Roewerb



The composite map in Fig. 1a shows the coverage of the 13 most frequent clusters in Europe and neighboring regions. We found a clear differentiation among historical geopolitical regions coincident with previous studies [3], [5], [9], [16] and [21]: Western Europe: cluster 6, Eastern Europe: cluster 17, Northwestern Africa: cluster 3, Western Fenno-Scandinavia: cluster 4, and Finland and the Baltic: cluster 9. In Southeastern Central Europe and the Balkans several clusters were alternatively predominant. Two circumscribed and densely sampled areas stood out from the surroundings: central Anatolia (cluster 5) and central Hungary (cluster 14). It is worth mentioning that while a genetic differentiation of central Anatolia is in accordance with previous studies [17] and [18], a reliable characterization of the not sampled surrounding areas may require further evaluation. Two clusters were assigned to large areas of the Balkan Peninsula: (1) Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine: cluster 18; (2) continental Greece, Bulgaria, and Macedonia: cluster 2. Cluster 13 was assigned to Albania and to the western area of the Balkans and cluster 11 to the Caucasus. The regionalization of Iceland in two concentric areas may indicate that a second group (cluster 4) is present in high frequency along with the most frequent Western European group (cluster 6). How these two groups spatially distribute in this area requires further examination.


Setting aside the clusters with the highest frequencies in the continental Western Europe (primarily covered by cluster 6), this area could be regionalized into four broad regions: (1) Iberian Peninsula: cluster 9; (2) France: cluster 7; (3) Germany, the Netherlands and Belgium: cluster 4; (4) Switzerland, western Austria, and central and northern Italy: cluster 11 (Fig. 1b). The figure shows that the cluster assigned to the Iberian Peninsula (cluster 9) registered maximal frequencies in the area of Spain (lighter shading of blue) and declined after the border to France (darker shading of blue).

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 03:53
I think first was E1b1b and J2b2, than Basque R1b and some I2a1, than big wave of R1b, followed by big wave of R1a, than I1, perhaps another wave of R1a and much later I2a2...

G is interesting indicator as it is absent on north and in Basques... it came with people who came via Asia minor and Caucasus, but not with people who went around Caspian sea or from north Asia... ans also probably not with people who were pushed out from Asia minor by the spread of Hittite empire or who moved out before it.. and that might be E1b1b, J2b2, Basque and I2a1

let me correct myself

according to "DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome" - Anatole A. Klyosov http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1/files/npre20082733-1.pdf

a common ancestor of the Eurasian R1a1 haplotype lived between 4,100 and 4,900 years ago. An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where a common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11,500 years bp. This will be explored below in this section.


The obtained data suggest that the first bearers of R1a1 haplogroup lived in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia) about 11,600 years bp.

I would say this places R1a in Balkan very early in history around 9500 BC ... and places its spread from Balkan to east Europe and Asia in time 3000 BC - 2000 BC. Not spreading to west and south Europe indicates that already around 3000BC the west Europe is densely settled by highly organized societies probably carriers of pre-italic and pre-Celtic R1b and pre-Germanic I haplogroup...

The movement of likely I2a2 Eneti from Paphlagonia area of Asia minor to Balkan (where according to Strabo from them Adriatic Veneti have arosed) might have been soon after the Trojan war...

this is explained on thread Veneti
Veneti (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26066)
there they as likely I2a2 carriers settle amongst previous tribes of E1b1b and R1a inhabitants (next to the sea cost also J2b2 was spread and in ancient Macedonia was perhaps already a hotspot of G2a)

ancient Greeks thought the Trojan War was a historical event that had taken place in the 13th or 12th century BC, thus expansion of I2a2 to Balkans was around 12-13BC...

expansion of I2a2 to Sarmatia (today Ukraine) might have taken place at much earlier times, which explains larger variation of I2a2 in that area than in Balkans......