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how yes no 2
02-11-10, 01:46
there are Veneti tribes in several parts of Europe in distant places and different times... but there are also Eneti in Paphlagonia in Asia Minor,
in fact let's hear what Strabo have to say about it...
from Strabo's book:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=12:chapter =3&highlight=thracian,eneti

....at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png

Strabo claims that Adriatic Veneti origin from Eneti from Paphlagonia, that is from area south of Black Sea

let's look something that I was missing before regarding I2a2..its variance in Turkey is relatively high, while frequency is low and there was no recent I2a2 settlements in Turkey...this indicates it might have come from there...
we can see that area of enlarged variance of I2a2 has some offset from Paphlagonia to the west, but this is normal taking into account that many centuries later invasion of Ottomans might have initially caused movement of all Asia minor people somewhat towards west... as similar offset have happened in Balkans with Serbs and Croats..
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/images/ejhg2008249f4.jpg

furthermore there is hotspot of variance of I2a2 in area of Adriatic Veneti
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Iron_Age_Italy.svg/300px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png

here we see slight offset to the east of highest variance compared to position of Adriatic Veneti....in fact highest variance is in population of Slavic Slovenia

now let's move our attention to the hotspot of variance in the area above Black sea...this was for very long period settlement of Sarmatians
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png

let us now remind ourselves about historical records of Vistula Veneti

Roman historian Pliny the Elder in Natural History (Liber IV: 96-97) mentions a tribe called Sarmatian Venedi (Latin Sarmatae Venedi). Subsequently, Tacitus in Germania (46) mentions Venethi; when comparing these to Germani and Sarmatae, however, Tacitus associates them with the former, stating that their habits are different from those of the Sarmatae.
In 2nd century AD, Ptolemy in his work De Geographia (III 5. 21.) mentions a people called Ouenedai along the southern shores of the Baltic, which he calls the Venedic Bay.
The historical document Tabula Peutingeriana, originating from the 4th century AD, separately mentions the Venedi along the Black Sea and the Venadi Sarmatae north of the Carpathians (see Gołąb 1992: 287-291, 295-296).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
let's now look at big Slavic tribes in 6th century
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg

Venedi, Slavs, and Antes (Antae/ Anti)
Anti on place where Sarmatians were...
Isn't Anti obviously also a name derived from Eneti?

thus, let us reconsider following question: could ancient Veneti have been original carriers of I2a2 amongst Slavic people?

and could Adriatic Veneti, Vistula Veneti, Anti and Veneti from Britanny be related that is comming from the same origin?

could we claim thus that there is a link between Veneti and Sarmatians?
I think so, Sarmatians are located on the very spot of above Black sea, that is from opposite side of Black sea compared to settlement in Paphlagonia that was attested in writings of Strabo......


Let us now consider I haplogroup being Germanic people

Old High German Winida 'Wende' points to Pre-Germanic *Venétos, while Lat.-Germ. Venedi (as attested in Tacitus) and Old English Winedas 'Wends' call for Pre-Germanic *Venetós. Etymologically related words include Latin venus, -eris 'love, passion, grace'; Sanskrit vanas- 'lust, zest', vani- 'wish, desire'; Old Irish fine (< Proto-Celtic *venjā) 'kinship, kinfolk, alliance, tribe, family'; Old Norse vinr, Old Saxon, Old High German wini, Old Frisian, Old English wine 'Friend' (Pokorny 1959: 1146 - 1147; Steinacher 2002: 33)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
let's now see Veneti in Britanny
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/ca/Gaul%2C_1st_century_BC.gif/643px-Gaul%2C_1st_century_BC.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png

isn't that an island of I2a1 (M26) right there exactly where Veneti are? Can it be coincidence?

1) hotspot of I2a2 variance correlates position of Sarmatians and Vistula Veneti were either Sarmatian tribe or there was Sarmatian Veneti tribe as well or both
2) hotspot of I2a2 variance correlates position of Adriatic Veneti,
3) hotspot of frequency of I2a1 correlates position of Britanny Veneti
4) historically attested presence in Paphlagonia correlates with increased variance in area where is almost no frequency...

can it be coincidence?
No way!!
Now, let us try to figure out I2a2-Dinaric-North and I2a2Dinaric-South

how yes no 2
03-11-10, 00:37
actually, high variance of I2a2 in Asia minor can also be due to Otoman empire who took away children from parents from all over Balkan and made them turkish soldiers...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary
also many native people of Balkan who have converted to islam during Ottoman rule, have moved to Turkey after break down of Ottoman empire.. and I think they did settle mostly in the area nearest to Europe - around Istanbul

how yes no 2
05-11-10, 01:16
clusterisation of samples

from "Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe"
Amalia Diaz-Lacavaa, Maja Waliera, Sascha Willuweitb, Thomas F. Wienkera, Rolf Fimmersa, Max P. Baura, and Lutz Roewerb



In Southeastern Central Europe and the Balkans several clusters were alternatively predominant. Two circumscribed and densely sampled areas stood out from the surroundings: central Anatolia (cluster 5) and central Hungary (cluster 14). It is worth mentioning that while a genetic differentiation of central Anatolia is in accordance with previous studies [17] and [18], a reliable characterization of the not sampled surrounding areas may require further evaluation. Two clusters were assigned to large areas of the Balkan Peninsula: (1) Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine: cluster 18; (2) continental Greece, Bulgaria, and Macedonia: cluster 2. Cluster 13 was assigned to Albania and to the western area of the Balkans and cluster 11 to the Caucasus.

cluster 18 - Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine

cluster 18 groups with cluster 10 (?hard to say what is it - colour on map could be either Moldavia, and east Romania, or central-west Anatolia or part of Caucasus)
than those 2 clusters group with clusters 13 (Albania) and 5 (central Anatolia)

to me this seems to be in proof of Sarmatian-Veneti tribes originating from Paphlagonia, and Albanians as well originating from Asia minor perhaps via genetical origin from Dardani tribe...

in fact I wonder whether name Sarmatians is derived from earlier Cimmerians..
to find out more about this likely relationship please go to the forum thread about Sarmatians
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26070

Shetop
06-11-10, 03:49
how yes no, please stop confusing people.
Your theory based on similarities of tribe names is not at all reasonable.

Adriatic Veneti were predominantly R1b.
Vistula Veneti were predominantly R1a.
Sarmatians were also predominantly R1a.

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 03:53
how yes no, please stop confusing people.
Your theory based on similarities of tribe names is not at all reasonable.
Adriatic Veneti were predominantly R1b.
Vistula Veneti were predominantly R1a.
Sarmatians were also predominantly R1a.
based on what? on your assumptions?
I explained my assumptions...so please explain your assumptions, so that I can try to prove you wrong.... as for proving me wrong, I do not see any argument in your lines above...

Shetop
06-11-10, 12:44
Should we expect that Veneto in Italy has the highest frequency of I2a2?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneto

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 14:40
Should we expect that Veneto in Italy has the highest frequency of I2a2?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneto

not highest because there were quite some settlements and movements of people there ...
but yes, Veneto province is part of north east Italy that has 9.4% of it... look at
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2008249f2.html#figure-title
and keep in mind that what we now call I2a2 was I2a1* there (well, look at values for Croatia, Bosnia...)
note that area also has 12% of G2a and 9%of I1 and 10.4% of R1a1

In fact, high G2a reminds on apparent connection of G2a and I2a2 in Sarmatians (Sarmatian Alani being G2a and the rest I would say mostly I2a2 dominant). Also high R1a is interesting... I1 typically is also present where I2a2 is, however in northeast Italy it can be mostly due to Goths, but still some part is probably older than germanic tribes that settled there and nearby during the fall of Roman empire...



Venetian or Venetan is a Romance language spoken as native language by over two million people,[1] mostly in the Veneto region of Italy, where of five million inhabitants almost all can understand it. It is sometime spoken and often well understood outside Veneto, in Trentino, Friuli, Venezia Giulia, Istria and some towns of Dalmatia, an area of six to seven million people. The language is called vèneto or vènet in Venetian, veneto in Italian; the variant spoken in Venice is called venexiàn/venesiàn or veneziano, respectively. Although referred to as an Italian dialect (diałeto dialetto) even by its speakers, like other Italian dialects it is a sister language of the national language, not a variety or derivative of it. Venetan (and Venetian proper, the language of Venice) display notable structural and lexical differences from Italian. Typologically, Venetan belongs only partly to the Northern Italian group within Romance languages.
Neither Venetan nor Venetian should be confused with Venetic, an extinct Indo-European language that was spoken in the Veneto region around the 6th century BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_language

Shetop
06-11-10, 20:37
not highest because there were quite some settlements and movements of people there ...

Can you explain what settlements and movements?

Shetop
06-11-10, 21:17
but yes, Veneto province is part of north east Italy that has 9.4% of it... look at
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2008249f2.html#figure-title


Btw, these results are for Trento province (not Veneto).

North Italy as a whole has frequency of 1% for I2a2:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 21:22
Can you explain what settlements and movements?
sure, I can...
celtic Boii brought R1b in area , which is still like 50% of genetic material of northeast Italy...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ee/Hallstatt_LaTene.png
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dsGYkxd7z_E/RbvOICLLkzI/AAAAAAAAAAs/EUg7YM6EJZs/s320/R1bFreq.png
roman empire expansion did obviously bring some genetic material from southern parts of Italy...because they had to conquer and control that area before it was completely assimilated... they probably brought some of J2a (13.5% in total of today's gene pool)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4a/Roman_conquest_of_Italy.PNG/550px-Roman_conquest_of_Italy.PNG
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a0/HaploJ2.png/800px-HaploJ2.png
after the fall of roman empire, germanic tribes settled bringing some I1 haplogroups and also some additional R1b
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/48/Haplogroup_I.png


The Goths seem to have been thick on the ground in northern Italy; in the south they formed little more than garrisons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths

In the spring of 568, Alboin led the Lombards, together with other Germanic tribes; (Bavarians, Gepidae, Saxons[50]) and Bulgars, across the Julian Alps with a population of around 400,000 to 500,000, to invade northern Italy due to their expulsion from Pannonia by Avars.

The whole Lombard territory was divided into 36 duchies, whose leaders settled in the main cities. The king ruled over them and administered the land through emissaries called gastaldi. This subdivision, however, together with the independent indocility of the duchies, deprived the kingdom of unity, making it weak even when compared to the Byzantines, especially after they began to recover from the initial invasion. This weakness became even more evident when the Lombards had to face the increasing power of the Franks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-en.svg/800px-Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-en.svg.png

position of Lombardia province of Italy:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ea/Map_Region_of_Lombardia.svg/250px-Map_Region_of_Lombardia.svg.png

note that the numbers are for whole northeast Italy, while Veneto is likely to have less R1b (since center of Boii was more to the south) and less I1 (cause center of Lombards was more to the west) and as a result Veneto is likely to have more R1a and more I2a2 than data for northeast Italy shows...

Shetop
06-11-10, 21:34
What I meant is that you should explain what movements and settlements caused that people in Herzegovina have 63,8% of I2a2 and those who live in Veneto most likely have less then 3% (this is my estimation from Rootsi et al study from 2004, see my previous post).

Shetop
06-11-10, 21:38
note that the numbers are for whole northeast Italy

No, your numbers are just for Trento province.

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 21:54
Btw, these results are for Trento province (not Veneto).

North Italy as a whole has frequency of 1% for I2a2:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/

North Italy perhaps has 1% (did they say where exactly samples come from?), but obviously northeast Italy (Trento) has 9,4%

Trento is imediatelly west from Veneto...In fact you have good point there

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Iron_Age_Italy.svg/300px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png

I2a2 might come from Raetic speaking people (closely related to Venetic) and Raetic is alike to alternative self-identification of Serbs, as principal Serb mediveal state was Ras/Rascia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C5%A1ka_(state))
while Serbs were in medieval history also sometimes reffered to as Rascians/Raci, which I personally think is derivative from older Thracians/Thraci...or other way around...

Is there any data for Veneto?

Shetop
06-11-10, 21:55
Should I conclude I2a2 in Veneto province haven't had any migrations for last 2000 years, and on the other side all other haplogroups had?
What would be the reason for such strange phenomenon?

Shetop
06-11-10, 21:58
Is there any data for Veneto?
I'm not aware of any Veneto specific data. But it is not that hard to calculate some kind of estimation.

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 22:16
Should I conclude I2a2 in Veneto province haven't had any migrations for last 2000 years, and on the other side all other haplogroups had?
What would be the reason for such strange phenomenon?
I2a2 was assimilated into Celtic and Roman people...
they could have moved somewhat (as for instance from Veneto to Trento, in order to escape for example first wave of Goths) but I do think there was no big migration of previous inhabitants...

it is not strange phenomena... people that conquer others move... people that are weaker might move a bit to escape first wave of conquerors...but later they typically accept being subjugated and at least a part of them tend to assimilate into ruling people...

significant I2a2 in northeast Italy certainly may origin from Veneti, even if future samples from Veneto shows Veneto has none for instance...

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 22:22
I'm not aware of any Veneto specific data. But it is not that hard to calculate some kind of estimation.
nope.. it is hard...
because haplogroups in any province depend very much from founder tribes...
Veneti's sphere of influence covered Veneto... from there people that originate from them might have moved somewhat to any direction...likely to north and east escaping Celts who settled south of them, to north and east escaping Romans, and to west escaping Goths..
so, estimations will just not work...
only sampling Veneto and nearby regions can give a clue...

Shetop
06-11-10, 22:23
they could have moved somewhat (as for instance from Veneto to Trento, in order to escape for example first wave of Goths)

But than Trento should be called Veneto. How come Veneti<-> I2a2 link is broken?

It survived thousands of years earlier, there is no logic it should be broken in that particular moment...

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 22:27
But than Trento should be called Veneto. How come Veneti<-> I2a2 link is broken?

It survived thousands of years earlier, there is no logic it should be broken in that particular moment...
tribal days were over... big long lasting empire took over... which was not the case before in history... they just became Roman citizens.. same phenomena you have everywhere in Roman empire...previous tribal names are lost, as there were no tribes anymore, just citizens... but name is preserved... Veneto province is a name that origin from Veneti...

Shetop
06-11-10, 22:32
tribal days were over... big long lasting empire took over... which was not the case before in history... they just became Roman citizens.. same phenomena you have everywhere in Roman empire...previous tribal names are lost, as there were no tribes anymore, just citizens... but name is preserved... Veneto province is a name that origin from Veneti...

First time that some region (state) got its name derivated from name Veneti was in 7th century (Republic of Venice). That is 300 years after Roman empire lost its control over that particular region.

Shetop
06-11-10, 22:41
Actually I was wrong in my previous post there was "Venetia and Istria" province inside Roman Empire but that was after Boii tribe came to the region and long after they have already assimilated Veneti as you say.

Why wasn't the province called Boii or something like that?

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 22:46
First time that some region (state) got its name derivated from name Veneti was in 7th century (Republic of Venice). That is 300 years after Roman empire lost its control over that particular region.
yes but that doesnot necesserilly mean that those people really origin from Veneti.... republic of Venice got its name based on town of Venice...it was not republic of Veneti...

Veneti people have changed culture and lost tribal identity...
Roman empire was not a national state...every citizen was equal...

in previous times, tribe could be subjugated, but it would preserve identity perhaps just because of being treated as lower cast by conquerors... some would assimilate, but most not...tribal identity is preserved...
but in Roman empire tribal origin did not matter... and as a consequence tribal identities disappeared and latin language spread to cover big part of Europe and further... it was a big melting pot, as USA was in recent history...

Shetop
06-11-10, 22:50
yes but that doesnot necesserilly mean that those people really origin from Veneti.... republic of Venice got its name based on town of Venice...it was not republic of Veneti...
Veneti people have changed culture and lost tribal identity...
Roman empire was not a national state...every citizen was equal...
in previous times, tribe could be subjugated, but it would preserve identity perhaps just because of being treated as lower cast by conquerors... some would assimilate, but most not...tribal identity is preserved...
but in Roman empire tribal origin did not matter... and as a consequence tribal identities disappeared and latin language spread to cover big part of Europe and further... it was a big melting pot, as USA was in recent history...

You got me there :smile:

how yes no 2
06-11-10, 23:00
in fact, Liburnia is hotspot of G2a (see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26035) same as Trento (12%) .... and this reminds me on I2a2 + G2a pattern that seems to be dominant in Sarmatians.. in fact this pattern stretches all the way to Etruscans who are also hotspot of G2a.. I would say that ancient Veneti, Etruscans (or Raseni how they call themselves), Raetians, Liburnians are a wave from Asia minor towards Adriatic coast, while Sarmatians were a wave of similar genetic content from Asia minor that initially spread around Black sea... this looks as preference for sea coast as was the case in their homeland of Paphlagonia...


Actually I was wrong in my previous post there was "Venetia and Istria" province inside Roman Empire but that was after Boii tribe came to the region and long after they have already assimilated Veneti as you say.
Why wasn't the province called Boii or something like that?
Because Boii were the element whose tribal identity should be lost as they were invaders in land of italics... Roman empire becomes multi-national only after it had spread enough to include many nations...
as for Veneti, they might have been the same tribe as Liburnians and might have moved north giving rise to Vindelicia province...


Roman historian Titus Livius (59 BC – AD 17), himself a native of the Veneti town of Patavium, claims that Trojan leader Antenor, together with a large number of Paphlagonians who had been expelled from their homeland by a revolution, migrated to the northern end of the Adriatic coast, where they later merged with indigenous people known as the Euganei.[6] However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid, the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti. (A reference in Virgil seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swath of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti


The material culture of its inhabitants the Vindelici was La Tène. The ethnic origin of the Vindelici is not sure. Whether they spoke a Celtic (i.e. Gaulish), Germanic, or other Indo-European language is unclear.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

how yes no 2
07-11-10, 01:27
perhaps some people think I try to say that Adriatic Veneti were Slavic people too... I never claimed that... being Slavic or Germanic or Celtic is cultural and linguistic issue...

what I claim is that Adriatic Veneti have common origin with Vistula Veneti and Sarmatians... and that that origin stems from Eneti & Cimmerian tribes of Asia minor...

in same time I point out that some of the tribes that were considered Illyrian might have in fact been Sarmatian tribes... like Oserites, Jazi, Serdi, Scordisci, Dalmatae.. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26070

Shetop
07-11-10, 01:31
Because Boii were the element whose tribal identity should be lost as they were invaders in land of italics...

Can you provide a source which describes Boii settling on the land of Veneti? Please give some source in words and not as a picture.

how yes no 2
07-11-10, 02:06
Can you provide a source which describes Boii settling on the land of Veneti? Please give some source in words and not as a picture.
I never said they have settled on land of Venets... but they obviously did penetrate deep in Apenine peninsula that was previously settled by italics only...
and in addition I claim based on their position and the distribution of R1b that Boii are main source of R1b in Italy, while you claim Veneti were source of R1b...

how yes no, please stop confusing people.
Your theory based on similarities of tribe names is not at all reasonable.
Adriatic Veneti were predominantly R1b.

R1b is not dominant at all in Veneto, it is dominant only on location of Boii, south of Veneto,..
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/images/R1b.png
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dsGYkxd7z_E/RbvOICLLkzI/AAAAAAAAAAs/EUg7YM6EJZs/s320/R1bFreq.pnghttp://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQqDLLVRvGJe3x6SsQJM1Di8jgHhkIj5 sGOl490DhHMGssHcGg&t=1&usg=__k33MjF-Y4TTvqqcfxu9DEaTC07M=http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4a/Roman_conquest_of_Italy.PNG/550px-Roman_conquest_of_Italy.PNG

Shetop
07-11-10, 02:11
I never said they have settled on land of Venets...

Then how do you explain R1b in Veneto? Was it from Boii or not?
And again, have you ever read anything about this or you are just watching the pictures and teaching us by looking at the pictures of unknown authors?

how yes no 2
07-11-10, 02:20
Then how do you explain R1b in Veneto? Was it from Boii or not?
And again, have you ever read anything about this or you are just watching the pictures and teaching us by looking at the pictures of unknown authors?
maps show me that Veneto has much less R1b than original Boii position
and that there is no source of it in Veneto but just dispersion from source that entered Italy from north and settled at point that matches historically attested location of Boii... distribution in Veneto doesnot show any traces of being source of R1b... it has obviously got R1b through normal spread of people during more than 2000 years of being neighbouring area to original location of Boii.. it probably did get some part of R1b during initial wave of Boii as well especially if they were subjugated by Boii...it might have also got some small part of R1b from germanic tribes who were quite mixed with R1b...

Shetop
07-11-10, 02:24
So R1b Boii settled outside Veneto and I2a2 Veneti remained on their land.
But the normal process of dispersion resulted in less than 3% of I2a2 and more than 60% of R1b as we have today in Veneto?

how yes no 2
07-11-10, 02:33
So R1b Boii settled outside Veneto and I2a2 Veneti remained on their land.
But the normal process of dispersion resulted in less than 3% of I2a2 and more than 60% of R1b as we have today in Veneto?
don't invent numbers that you do not have.... btw. position of Veneto province today is one thing, position of Veneti in time of arrival of Boii is something else...

Look where iti s written Veneti on map and where is lowest level of R1b (pay attention on coastline shapes)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/4/4a/Roman_conquest_of_Italy.PNG/550px-Roman_conquest_of_Italy.PNG http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/images/R1b.png

it's a perfect match isn't it?
those 2 pictures together show you that Veneti have least R1b from all people there... that they were obstacle to normal spread of R1b

Shetop
07-11-10, 02:56
don't invent numbers that you do not have....

I used your picture to estimate R1b.
What do you think are the frequencies of R1b and I2a2 in the exact place where Veneti tribe name was written on the picture?

Actually I'm now asking myself why do you think that I2a2 has some higher frequency on that exact place? There is no study which covers that area.

I can't believe you are making this large story of I2a2<->Veneti relation without any confirmation for frequencies of I2a2. Not just there but anywhere in Europe.

This is my last post here. And I really think you should read more and watch the pictures less.

how yes no 2
07-11-10, 03:41
I used your picture to estimate R1b.
What do you think are the frequencies of R1b and I2a2 in the exact place where Veneti tribe name was written on the picture?
Actually I'm now asking myself why do you think that I2a2 has some higher frequency on that exact place? There is no study which covers that area.
I can't believe you are making this large story of I2a2<->Veneti relation without any confirmation for frequencies of I2a2. Not just there but anywhere in Europe.
This is my last post here. And I really think you should read more and watch the pictures less.
there is a legend - island with less R1b is 25%

it's not about absolute frequency... it is about what distinguishes population from neighbouring populations...
Anyway, one is for sure from that map, Venets were not source of R1b in region, they did absorb some of it, couldnot have been originally R1b as you claim...

if you look at R1b map and position of Trento, you can see it was completely overrun by Boii... Boii went through midst of it and settled it heavily in order to keep corridor to their base in north... so, original population of Trento is very likely more or less what stays when you substract influence of Boii, and later R1b settlements, which is probably close to all of R1b that is now there (50%)... assuming this scenario, and making logical assumption that most of I1 came with germanic tribes and that J2 was spread by Roman empire, original population had more or less thirds of R1a, G2a and I2a2... genetically this is mix of same groups as Sarmatians/Veneds which indicates common place of origin (not necessarily same culture and language), which is further proved by tribal names of neighbouring and culturally and linguistically similar populations (Raseni and Veneti)

Since Venets were less on the way of R1b, I expect for Venets larger percentages of R1a, I2a2, and G2a... but it can happen that in fact Venets were different mix of those 3 than the one in Trento (Raetians)...

Because of unprecedented oldness of R1a in Balkans compared to anywhere else, I think that R1a is native in Balkans... so original Venets who have come from Asia minor were originally mix of G2a and I2a2.. I have initially suspected they were just I2a2, but after looking data for Trento, I am inclined to think that some of the Veneti tribes had large G2a as well (same as Sarmatian Alans
were dominantly G2a)...

how yes no 2
21-11-10, 02:01
Good indiacation that Veneti are related with spread of I2 haplogroup is that
on familytreedna I2 project
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

there are only 2 samples of I2*

1) one classified as I2a*-P.37.2 Alpine and is found in area of Veneto or nearby in any case on place of Adriatic Veneti

2) one classified as I2a*-P.37-France and is located in Bretanny in France in position matching celtic Venet of Gaul...

so, I think Slavic tribes indeed are of Veneti race as Jordanes indicated
but they are not only people originating from Veneti...


in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

Jordanes - the origin and deeds of Goths

how yes no 2
23-01-11, 01:49
there are Veneti tribes in several parts of Europe in distant places and different times... but there are also Eneti in Paphlagonia in Asia Minor,
in fact let's hear what Strabo have to say about it...
from Strabo's book:

....at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=12:chapter =3&highlight=thracian,eneti
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png
Strabo claims that Adriatic Veneti origin from Eneti from Paphlagonia, that is from area south of Black Sea


Veneti went away from Paphlagonia.... if vacated space was filled in with people of different origin, we should be able to see holes of frequencies that were dominant in Veneti

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

Obviously, there are holes of I2a2 and R1a indicating that already Paphlagonia Eneti were R1a + I2a2 combination

which confirms Jordanes claims that Slavs are of populous race of Veneti

location and direction of spread of early Slavs matches I2a2 and is not visible in R1a only because there were other layers of R1a there e.g. Scythians...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d3/Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg/483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

how yes no 2
23-01-11, 02:05
adapted from another thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26190

based on list of important cities of Raetia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia
Raetia included Swiss, complete south Germany (not just soutwest Germany) and north Italy, west most part of Austria....

in fact, this makes me wonder whether alternative name of Serbs (Rascians see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raci and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia) may in fact origin not from some link with Etruscans but from being in most east parts of Raetia province

note that name Rascians is also likely to origin from Thracians

historical source Byzantine emperor claims that Serbs settled Balkan from white Serbia which they call Boika (which likely has meaning land of Boii) where they originally dwelt... according to his words this land of Boika is beyond Hungary (called Turkey by Bizantine historians due to Hun and Avar settlements as this was all much before Turks settled in Asia minor) and neigbours Francia and white Croatia...this all points to Bohemia which is named after Boii tribe...



The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination....
http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&hl=de&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Bohemia is hotspot of I2a2

Strabo among people of Bohemia also names Sibini..



Here, too, is the Hercynian Forest,15 and also the tribes of the Suevi, some of which dwell inside the forest, as, for instance, the tribes of the Coldui,16 in whose territory is Boihaemum,17 the domain of Marabodus, the place whither he caused to migrate, not only several other peoples, but in particular the Marcomanni, his fellow-tribesmen; for after his return from Rome this man, who before had been only a private citizen, was placed in charge of the affairs of state, for, as a youth he had been at Rome and had enjoyed the favor of Augustus, and on his return he took the rulership and acquired, in addition to the peoples aforementioned, the Lugii (a large tribe), the Zumi, the Butones, the Mugilones, the Sibini,18 and also the Semnones, a large tribe of the Suevi themselves. However, while some of the tribes of the Suevi dwell inside the forest, as I was saying, others dwell outside of it, and have a common boundary with the Getae.19 Now as for the tribe of the Suevi,20 it is the largest, for it extends from the Rhenus to the Albis;
quoted from
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=7:chapter= 1&highlight=sibini

So, in Strabo's time Marcomanni (or people led by Marabodus) rule over Bohemia and over several tribes among them large tribe Luigii and also Sibini

Sibini could be a tribe of proto-Serbs that might have later departed for Balkan, as in Serbian language a word for a Serb is "Srbin" ... while Luigi is likely about Lugii who may later gave people known as Lusatians/Sorbs/Wends



now, back to Rhaetia

if we look closest Raetian town to Bohemia, its name is Sorviodurum today Straubing ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing)

thus, those Serbs whose settlement on Balkan is described by Byzantine emperor, lived in east most part of Raetia which partly overlapped with Bohemia, but were not Raetians (Raetians are likely G haplogroup and different language)

this is explainable by Vindelicia being added to Raetia province in 1st century AD....

Quote:

At first Raetia formed a distinct province, but towards the end of the 1st century AD Vindelicia was added to it; hence Tacitus (Germania, 41) could speak of Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg) as "a colony of the province of Raetia". The whole province (including Vindelicia) was at first under a military prefect, then under a procurator; it had no standing army quartered in it but relied on its own native troops and militia for protection until the 2nd century AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia

Vindelici name is related to Celtic word "white", while if you look up in Byzantine source Serbs of Bohemia were also called "white"... white is color for west... Bohemia was white or west Serbia...

Vindelici is obviously related to Vind/Veneti tribal name...
Venetoi = latin wind gods
Wend = Germanic word for Sorbs and Slavs in general

Jordanes indicates that early Slavs are populous race of Veneti

Quote:

Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35)
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html


now, this is all in accordance with known facts about Vindelicia


The material culture of its inhabitants the Vindelici was La Tène. The ethnic origin of the Vindelici is not sure. Whether they spoke a Celtic (i.e. Gaulish), Germanic, or other Indo-European language is unclear. (A possible etymology of their name includes a Celtic element *windo-, cognate to Irish find- 'white'.[1]) However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid,[2] the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti.[3][4] (A reference in Virgil[2] seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swathe of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

how yes no 2
13-02-11, 17:33
another indication that Veneti were originally haplogroup I and not R1a dominant people....

nation of Andis in Dagestan... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andi_(people)

Andis is likely derivation of tribal name Antes, which is I think derivation of tribal name Eneti.... as also Jordanes claims that Antes are part of populous race of Veneti.... and Veneti are as explained by Herodotous derived from Paphlagonia Eneti

Andis living in turbulent Caucasus had of course large admixture of other tribes and have likely gone through changes in language and culture during their history... but if they origin from Antes, then in their genetics we should be able to see solid traces of dominant haplogroup of Antes/Eneti/Veneti...

Andis have

R1b 6.1% R1a 2.0% I 26.5% E-V13 2.0% J 55.1 % G 6.1% T 2.0%
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

this also poses the question of haplogroup J.... could Antes/Veneti also have had significant haplogroup J or is it later admixture in Andis?

I opt for second option as neighbouring Avars have 71.4% haplogroup J and 0% of haplogroup I ( see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups), and speak similar language as now Andis do (together they make Andis-Avar language branch of Caucasian languages)...

binx
25-02-11, 15:10
how yes no, please stop confusing people.
Your theory based on similarities of tribe names is not at all reasonable.



Agree. Cases of homonimy are frequent in history.

Taranis
25-02-11, 19:54
how yes no, the Vindelicians were obviously a Celtic-speaking people, akin to the Gauls and the Norians.

The Baltic "Venedi" are not be mixed up with the Gaulish "Veneti" of Aremorica, nor with the Adriatic "Veneti", nor with the Slavic Wends of later times.

how yes no 2
25-02-11, 21:30
how yes no, the Vindelicians were obviously a Celtic-speaking people, akin to the Gauls and the Norians.
The Baltic "Venedi" are not be mixed up with the Gaulish "Veneti" of Aremorica, nor with the Adriatic "Veneti", nor with the Slavic Wends of later times.
they all have same origin... and from that origin their tribal names come from... signature of their proto-tribe is I2a...


The material culture of its inhabitants the Vindelici was La Tène. The ethnic origin of the Vindelici is not sure. Whether they spoke a Celtic (i.e. Gaulish), Germanic, or other Indo-European language is unclear. (A possible etymology of their name includes a Celtic element *windo-, cognate to Irish find- 'white'.[1]) However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid,[2] the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti.[3][4] (A reference in Virgil[2] seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swathe of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici

material culture being La Tene, is not the same as language is Celtic...
if in 2000 years they dig out German from today, would it be correct to conclude he is American because he wears jeans?


Let me remind you that France and Spain were speaking Celtic before Roman invasion, Romania was speaking Dacian, latin America certainly didnot speak Spanish, and native Americans were not really english speakers...
thus in last 1500-2000 year, most of areas on Earth surface have changed their languages and you are trying to convince me that such things didnot happen before equally often...oh, grow up...

language and cultural arguments are not trustable when you talk of origin and genetics... as language and cultures change fast...
but tribal name might stay and haplogroups stay...

as for Germanic Veneti, they were classified as Germanic because they lived in houses, and not nomad style of life.... in same time Sarmatian Venedi are mentioned who live nomad style of life...

well, read for yourself...that you can find even on wikipedia...

This region was barely known to the Romans a century earlier than Ptolemy. Tacitus, writing in AD 98 did not refer to the Vistula as a boundary, but simply locates the Veneti among the peoples on the eastern fringe of Germania. He was uncertain of their ethnic identity:
The Veneti have borrowed largely from Sarmatian ways; their plundering forays take them all over the wooded and mountainous country that rises between the Peucini [Germanic-speakers north of Dacia] and the Fenni [Finno-Ugric hunter-gatherers of Finland and the eastern Baltic]. Nevertheless, they are to be classed as Germani, for they have settled houses, carry shields and are fond of travelling fast on foot; in all these respects they differ from the Sarmatians, who live in wagons or on horseback. [4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti

that is because Roman historians live in Rome, and do not speak languages of barbarians... they mostly record battles, not inhabitants... Tacitus have no clue what language which barbarians speak, he classify them based on whether they live in houses... I guess with his classification today all world are Germanic people...


now look at Jordanes who is of Gothic origin, thus from within barbarian society


in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35)
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html


no use talking to you people...as you discard arguments that you do not like...
so Tacitus who is outsider knows who are Germanic and who are not, and Jordanes who is insider should not be trusted....

how yes no 2
25-02-11, 22:04
I have removed from post above sentence which validity I cannot claim as I have no proof or indication for continuity between Vindelici and Slovaks...

sentence was about Vindobona (today Wien) being town of Vindelici and how Slovaks still live on walking distance....

I did also delete bad words about influence of politics in history regarding considering Veneti Germanic...

though, they originally might have been carrying tribal name Germans, as I2a2 in Asia minor matches Gomer people (Cimmerians) who are considered to orgin from person named Gomer as all other Germanians.... also province of Kerman in Persia, Iran that is called Germania, Zermanya is most likely place of origin of I*...

so, in some way it makes sense to call Veneti Germanic...but that would not be about culture, but about very distant origin....however, in that respect more than half of Germans would not be Germans and half of south Slavs would be...issue arises because tribal name German is ancient old...

iapetoc
26-02-11, 01:38
When I read Veneti my mind went back to Iustianianus troubles and Veneti people? is there any connection?

julia90
26-02-11, 02:37
Some Wikipedia info about italian Veneti

Adriatic Veneti

The Veneti (also called heneti in Latin, ενετοί enetoi in Greek) were an ancient people who inhabited north-eastern Italy, in an area corresponding to the modern-day region of the Veneto.[1]
The ancient Veneti spoke Venetic, an extinct Indo-European language which is attested in approximately 300 short inscriptions dating from the 6th to 1st centuries BC. Venetic appears to share several similarities with Latin and the Italic languages, but also has some affinities with other IE languages, especially Germanic and Celtic. Venetic should not be confused with Venetian, a Romance language presently spoken in the region.
In Italy, these ancient people are also referred to as Paleoveneti to distinguish them from the modern-day inhabitants of the Veneto region, called Veneti in Italian.[2] They are unrelated to the Gaulish Veneti, a Celtic tribe formerly living on the coast of Brittany, despite confusion by classical scholar Strabo (see History below).
Many tribes originally thought to have been Illyrians, such as Carni, Histri and Liburni, were actually related to Veneti.[3]

The extent of the territory occupied by the ancient Veneti before their incorporation by the Romans is uncertain. It was at first included in Cisalpine Gaul, but later became known as the tenth region of Italy. It was bounded on the west by the Athesis (Adige), or according to others, by the Addua (Adda); on the north by the Alps; on the east by the Timavus (Timavo river in Friuli-Venezia Giulia) and on the south by the Adriatic Gulf.

The origins of the Veneti are not completely formed and is a much debated topic. However some scholars link them with the Illyrians. An expert on the language of the Veneti, Karl Pauli, has declared that the language is mostly related to that of the Illyrians than any other language.[4] A people called the Enetoi (Eneti) is mentioned by Homer (who lived ca. 850 BC) in the Iliad, as inhabiting Paphlagonia on the southern coast of the Black Sea in the time of the Trojan War (ca. 1200 BC). The Paphlagonians are listed among the allies of the Trojans in the war, where their king Pylaemanes and his son Harpalion perished.[5]
Roman historian Titus Livius (59 BC – AD 17), himself a native of the Veneti town of Patavium, claims that Trojan leader Antenor, together with a large number of Paphlagonians who had been expelled from their homeland by a revolution, migrated to the northern end of the Adriatic coast, where they later merged with indigenous people known as the Euganei.[6] However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid, the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti. (A reference in Virgil seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swath of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.
Pliny the Elder (AD 23–79) attributes to Cornelius Nepos (100–24 BC) the identification of the Enetoi with the ancient Veneti.[7] He lists the towns of Ateste, Acelum, Patavium, Opitergium, Belunum, and Vicetia as belonging to the Veneti.[8]
The Greek historian Strabo (64 BC–AD 24), on the other hand, conjectured that the Adriatic Veneti were the same as the Celtic tribe of the same name who formerly lived on the Belgian coast and fought against Julius Caesar. He further suggested that the identification of the Adriatic Veneti with the Paphlagonian Enetoi led by Antenor — which he attributes to Sophocles (496–406 BC) — was a mistake due to the similarity of the names.[9] Strabo also gives information on the then-current domains of the Veneti (Book V, Chapter 1).

Other tribes originally thought to have been Illyrians were actually related to Veneti, such as:
Histri[10]
Catari[11]
Catali[12]
Liburni
Lopsi[13]
Secusses[14]

julia90
26-02-11, 02:42
VENETIC language

Venetic is a centum language. The inscriptions use a variety of the Northern Italic alphabet, similar to the Etruscan alphabet.
The exact relationship of Venetic to other Indo-European languages is still being investigated, but the majority of scholars agree that Venetic, aside from Liburnian, was closest to the Italic languages (a group that includes Latin, Oscan and Umbrian). Venetic may also have been related to the Celtic languages or the Illyrian languages once spoken in the western Balkans in both cases, though the theory that Illyrian and Venetic were closely related is debated by current scholarship. The position of Venetic within Indo-European has been studied in detail by Lejeune.[5]:p.163
Some important parallels with the Germanic languages have also been noted, especially in pronominal forms:[6]:p.708,882
Venetic: ego = I, accusative mego = me
Gothic: ik, accusative mik
(Latin: ego, accusative me)
Venetic: sselboisselboi = to oneself
Old High German: selb selbo
(Latin: sibi ipsi)

A sample inscription in Venetic, found on a bronze nail at Este (Es 45):[1]:p.149
Venetic: mego donasto śainatei reitiiai porai egeotora aimoi ke louderobos
Latin (literal): me donavit sanatrici reitiae bonae egetora [pro] aemo liberis-que
English: Egetora gave me to Good Reitia the Healer on behalf of Aemus and the children
Another inscription, found on a situla (vessel such as an urn or bucket) at Cadore (Ca 4 Valle):[1]:p.464
Venetic: eik goltanos doto louderai kanei
Latin (literal): hic goltanus dedit liberae cani
English: Goltanus sacrificed this for the virgin Kanis

Taranis
26-02-11, 02:51
they all have same origin... and from that origin their tribal names come from... signature of their proto-tribe is I2a...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici
material culture being La Tene, is not the same as language is Celtic...
if in 2000 years they dig out German from today, would it be correct to conclude he is American because he wears jeans?

Stop right here. There's not just material evidence, there's also linguistic evidence. In his "Geography", Ptolemy mentions the following towns in Vindelicia, all which overtly have Celtic etymologies:

- Artobriga
- Boiodurum
- Cambodunum
- Medullum

There is also the name Vindelici itself, which includes "Vindo-", meaning "fair, white". Therefore, there's no reason to assume why the Vindelici did not speak a Celtic language.

how yes no 2
26-02-11, 15:28
Stop right here. There's not just material evidence, there's also linguistic evidence. In his "Geography", Ptolemy mentions the following towns in Vindelicia, all which overtly have Celtic etymologies:
- Artobriga
- Boiodurum
- Cambodunum
- Medullum
There is also the name Vindelici itself, which includes "Vindo-", meaning "fair, white". Therefore, there's no reason to assume why the Vindelici did not speak a Celtic language.

languages change...
Celtic Gaul do not speak Celtic anymore either...

as for proto-Serbs, it seems that there is relation to Celtic tribes such as Serdi and Scordisci who extended from south Balkan to Pannonia and Slovakia and also to Celtic tribe Seurbi in Iberia...
read more
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=366471#post366471
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365929#post365929


there is also an issue that split between Germanic, Slavic and Celtic was not so long in past....
2000 years ago many words were interchangeable in PIE derived languages...
e.g. I read somewhere (not reliable source) that old english has much more words related to Slavic than modern english does...

2000 years ago difference between different PIE derived languages was probably alike to difference between dialects of some modern IE language... so switching from one to another was more natural than today...

anyway, supposed timeline is



1500 BC–1000 BC: The Nordic Bronze Age develops pre-Proto-Germanic, and the (pre)-Proto-Celtic Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures emerge in Central Europe, introducing the Iron Age. Migration of the Proto-Italic speakers into the Italian peninsula (Bagnolo stele). Redaction of the Rigveda and rise of the Vedic civilization in the Punjab. The Mycenaean civilization gives way to the Greek Dark Ages.
1000 BC–500 BC: The Celtic languages spread over Central and Western Europe. Baltic languages are spoken in a huge area from present-day Poland to the Ural Mountains.[28] Proto Germanic. Homer and the beginning of Classical Antiquity. The Vedic Civilization gives way to the Mahajanapadas. Siddhartha Gautama attains enlightenment and preaches Buddhism. Zoroaster composes the Gathas, rise of the Achaemenid Empire, replacing the Elamites and Babylonia. Separation of Proto-Italic into Osco-Umbrian and Latin-Faliscan. Genesis of the Greek and Old Italic alphabets. A variety of Paleo-Balkan languages are spoken in Southern Europe.
500 BC–1 BC/AD: Classical Antiquity: spread of Greek and Latin throughout the Mediterranean, and during the Hellenistic period (Indo-Greeks) to Central Asia and the Hindukush. Kushan Empire, Mauryan Empire. Proto-Germanic. The Anatolian languages are extinct.
1 BC/AD 500: Late Antiquity, Gupta period; attestation of Armenian. Proto-Slavic. The Roman Empire and then the Migration period marginalize the Celtic languages to the British Isles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages

Taranis
26-02-11, 15:40
This does not change anything about the assessment that the Vindelici of Antiquity were a Celtic-speaking people, and utterly unrelated with the Slavic peoples.

how yes no 2
26-02-11, 15:51
This does not change anything about the assessment that the Vindelici of Antiquity were a Celtic-speaking people, and utterly unrelated with the Slavic peoples.

once again, culture is one thing, origin is another...
French people who dominantly origin from Gaels are not Celtic speaking but their ancestors were, right?

my claim is that Vindelici and Slavs and Adriatic Veneti and Vistula Veneti and Britanny Veneti, and Antes all come from same Veneti proto-tribe.... this common origin I relate to I2 or I2a derived haplogroups

I have a proof for my claims in statement of Jordanes that Antes and Sclaveni are of Veneti race that is now scattered among many tribes, and also in medieval Russian chronicle that claims how Noricans are same people as Slavs...

same people is about origin, as I indicated languages can change easily....
2500 years ago latin was spoken only around small willage called Rome...now languages derived from it are spoken in whole Italy, in Romania, Spain, Portugal, France, latin America....

knowing that how can you claim that language difference tells you that two groups of people are unrelated???

besides, 4 town names are not a proof of language...they are indication...
btw. there are online books about ancient history, so please link to page in book for historic sources you quote, as I do not have time to check your sources and verify them...

how yes no 2
26-02-11, 21:44
Stop right here. There's not just material evidence, there's also linguistic evidence. In his "Geography", Ptolemy mentions the following towns in Vindelicia, all which overtly have Celtic etymologies:

- Artobriga
- Boiodurum
- Cambodunum
- Medullum

I couldnot find this...
but I found that Vindelici lived in part of Bavaria south of Danube


The Rhine also flows into vast marshes and a great lake,14 which borders on the Rhæti and Vindelici,15 who dwell partly in the Alps, and partly beyond the Alps.

14 The Lake of Constance.

15 The Rhæti occupied the Tirol; the Vindelici that portion of Bavaria south of the Danube.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=4:chapter= 3&highlight=vindelici

this is in times of Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24)

however, Serbs in 7th century come from land of Boiki... that is probably Bohemia and is north of Danube...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Danubemap.jpg/800px-Danubemap.jpg

anyway, Vindelicia is part of Rhaetia, with Rhaeti living in Tirol and Vindelici in Bavaria...
let's see towns in east part of Rhaetia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhaetia

Curia


The name "chur" derives perhaps from the Celtic kora or koria, meaning "tribe", or from the Latin curia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chur
hm, this could be related to tribal name of Croats (Hrvati)

interestingly, this is in Helvetii llocation


The Helvetii were a Celtic tribe or tribal confederation[2] occupying most of the Swiss plateau at the time of their contact with the Roman Republic in the 1st century BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helveti


next interesting town in east Rhaetia is
Sorviodurum (Straubing) this is clearly related to Serb tribal name...
might be coincidence, but it is exactly in area where we expect to see white Serbia according to Byzantine emperor...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing

well, 88km further (via existing roads, straight line distance would be somewhat shorter) we find place name Srby in Bohemia in Czech republic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Doma%C5%BElice_District)
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=49.5375,12.863333&spn=0.1,0.1&t=m&q=49.5375,12.863333

another place name Srby we find in Bohemia in Czech republic 136 km from Serviodurum (via existing roads, straight line distance would be shorter)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plze%C5%88-South_District)
http://maps.google.com/maps?ll=49.523889,13.593333&spn=0.1,0.1&t=m&q=49.523889,13.593333

coincidence?


They know thee now, thy strength in war,
Those unsubdued Vindelici.
Thine was the sword that Drusus drew,
When on the Breunian hordes he fell,
And storm'd the fierce Genaunian crew
E'en in their Alpine citadel,
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.02.0025:book=4:poem=14&highlight=vindelici
Horace - Odes




There is also the name Vindelici itself, which includes "Vindo-", meaning "fair, white". Therefore, there's no reason to assume why the Vindelici did not speak a Celtic language.

yes, there is also name Vindelici that means white
let's see


The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination....
http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&hl=de&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Serbs and Croats were called 'white'... Vindelici/Vendi/Veneti tribal names mean 'white' in Celtic

now Serbs and Croats seems to go through history in pair...

The Protogenes Inscription (3rd century BC) mention the Sciri together with the Galatians and probably Indo Iranian Saii[1] when they tried unsuccessfully to capture the Greek city Olbia, northwest of the Black Sea. It has been suggested that the Sciri, like the Hirri, as mentioned by Pliny the Elder in association with Sarmatians and Venedi, actually belonged to the latter since he does not mention the Sciri among the German people and neither Caesar nor Tacitus mention the Sciri at all.[2] They reappear only at the time of Attila the Hun.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirii

Scirii and Hirri belonged to Venedi.... which again is tribal name derived from Veneti and with meaning "white"

Serians and Hurians are related to Pahplagonia Eneti in mythology...


The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

more about Seri and Hurri being part of/related to Paphlagonia Eneti (ancestors of Veneti according to Herodotous) and living south of them in mountain Taurus (bull) area...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=365077&postcount=440

back to Scirri and Hirri that is Seri and Hurri, or Serians and Hurians
why Seri = day and Hurri = night?


The Harii (Latinized West Germanic "warriors"[1]) were a Germanic people attested by Tacitus as being a tribe in his 1st-century-AD book Germania. He describes them as painting themselves and their shields black, and attacking at night as a ghostly army, much to the terror of their opponents. Theories have been proposed connecting the Harii to the Einherjar of much later Norse mythology, and to the tradition of the Wild Hunt.
...
Regarding the Harii, Tacitus writes in Germania:
As for the Harii, quite apart from their strength, which exceeds that of the other tribes I have just listed, they pander to their innate savagery by skill and timing: with black shields and painted bodies, they choose dark nights to fight, and by means of terror and shadow of a ghostly army they cause panic, since no enemy can bear a sight so unexpected and hellish; in every battle the eyes are the first to be conquered.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harii

somewhat more recent history


The Battle of Maritsa, or Battle of Chernomen, took place at the Maritsa River near the village of Chernomen (today Ormenio in Greece) on September 26, 1371 between the forces of the Ottoman sultan Murad I's lieutenant Lala Şâhin Paşa and the Serbian army numbering some 70,000 men under the command of the king of the Serbs and the Greeks Vukašin Mrnjavčević and his brother despot Uglješa.[2][3][4][5]
Despot Uglješa wanted to make a surprise attack on the Ottomans in their capital city, Edirne, while Murad I was in Asia Minor. The Ottoman army was much smaller, but due to superior tactics (night raid on the allied camp), Şâhin Paşa was able to defeat the Serbian army and kill King Vukašin and despot Uglješa. Macedonia and parts of Greece fell under Ottoman power after this battle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Maritsa

now back to quite recent times


Operation Storm (Croatian, Bosnian: Operacija Oluja, Serbian: Oпeрaциja Oлуja, Operacija Oluja) is the code name given to a large-scale military operation carried out by Croatian Armed Forces, in conjunction with the Army of the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina, to gain control of parts of Croatia which had been claimed by separatist ethnic Serbs, since early 1991.[8]
The operation, which lasted 84 hours, was documented as the largest European land offensive since World War II.[9] It began shortly before dawn on 4 August 1995 and ended with a complete victory for the Croatian forces four days later.
...
Operation Storm caused an estimated 100,000-250,000 Serbs to flee for Republic of Srpska and Serbia; whether the exodus was forced to occur by advancing Croatian Armed Forces, or if the Krajina Serb government ordered most Serbs to flee prior to the offensive, or if there was another reason for emigration is a disputed matter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Storm

how yes no 2
27-02-11, 20:33
in myth, bulls Seri and Hurri are probably representing people who inhabit Taurus (=bull) area of Asia minor...

from Taurus area (southeast Asia minor) comes Greek name for Etruscan Tyrsenian (while they call themselves Rasena) and for Thracians (probably real origin is also Rasena as Rascians is used as self-name in medieval Serbia and in Russians)

Greek word Taurus for bulls might come from horns on helmets that Sherdana had...
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples17.jpg

also bull was sacred animal in that part of Asia minor...self-name Rasena from which word Taurus is derived probably had different meaning than bull...

but we know that there is also Taurisci tribe....let's where they are..


The Taurisci were a people who dwelt in the north of Carniola before the coming of the Romans (c. 200 BC)[1] According to Pliny the Elder, they are the same people known as the Norici.[2][3] The denotation probably stems from Celtic taur meaning "mountain", like in Tauern, and therefore may also refer to highlanders in general.
Affiliated with the Celto-Ligurian Taurini, the Taurisci settled within the territory of modern Slovenia after the defeat at the Battle of Telamon in 225 BC. The Greek chronicler Polybius (ca. 203–120 BC) mentioned Tauriscian gold mining in the area of Aquileia.
In the south-east of Carniola lived the Pannonians, and in the south-west lived the Iapodes, an Illyrian tribe, and the Carni, a Venetic tribe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

now, Taurisci lived in area north of Slovenia and are same as Norici...
this is in agreement with Russian primary chronicle that state how Noricans are also Slavic people...

as for Venetic tribe Carni, their tribal name might be same as the one of Carantines or modern Slovenians...their language might have changed... or other way around the preserved words of Adriatic Veneti language were captured only after it was heavily influenced by italic languages...


The ancient Veneti spoke Venetic, an extinct Indo-European language which is attested in approximately 300 short inscriptions dating from the 6th to 1st centuries BC. Venetic appears to share several similarities with Latin and the Italic languages, but also has some affinities with other IE languages, especially Germanic and Celtic.

now, strange thing is Scordisci and their Thracanized version Serdi spoke Celtic, Vindelici spoke Celtic, Seurbi spoke Celtic, Helvetti spoke Celtic, Adriatic Veneti (and thus also Venetic Liburnians and Carni) might have originally spoken Celtic... Veneti of Gaul spoke Celtic..

but Serbs, Croats, Carantines, Vistula Veneti speak Slavic... even though historic record tells us that Serbs come from Bohemia in 7th century and are supposed to have also originally dwelt there and that area was named after Celtic Boii and was Celtic speaking....but there is not much in common in Slavic and Celtic languages...

did language shift happen and how, why and when?
how come Celtic languages disappeared from almost complete continental Europe?
it is often considered that R1a spread PIE, but (looking at perfect match between Etruscans position and spread of R1a in Italy) Etruscans were R1a and spoke non IE, and also proto-Magyars were obviously R1a and spoke non-IE...

how yes no 2
27-02-11, 21:14
according to familytreedna maps with sample locations

I2* is found in Asia minor, but also in two lines accross Europe one from Black sea to Baltic and other from Italy to Denmark,
I2a* we find in Alps and Britanny (matching locations of Adriatic and Britanny Veneti)
I2a1 in south and west Europe
I2a2 in east and central Europe

so I2a1 perhaps did arise in Britanny
I2a2 perhaps in Alps

as locations of I2a* samples do match Adriatic Veneti and Britanny Veneti, this indicates that Veneti tribes were perhaps on those locations for long time back in history which is not in agreement with idea of Herodotous that disappeared Paphlagonia Eneti must have moved to Adriatic and became Adriatic Veneti... in fact, locations of I2a* associated with Veneti locations indicate that they were already for long time on Adriatic and Britanny in times imediatelly after Trojan war when Eneti went out of Asia minor...

so question here is could even words like "antic" and "ancient" (times) refer to (v)Eneti based Europe in distant past before neolithics...

also judging by this spread of I haplogroup, Hurians, Serians, and Sherdana of Asia can be at most distant cousins of Serbs and Croats, but not their ancestors....
as time distance between I2* and I2a2-Dinaric is large enough not to allow that relation in historic times...

alternatively, both Serbs and Croats could have originally been R1a and became I2a2 in central Europe... there they could have imposed Slavic language and identity to previously Celtic people... for Croatia R1a is large enough to support this scenario, but in Serb settled areas R1a is ~15% and also ancient old...15% is ~ level in non-Slavic Albanians in FYRM and almost twice less than level in Greek Macedonia (while Slavic Macedonia is on same R1a level as Serbia)...
So, this is a puzzle...

iapetoc
28-02-11, 08:24
How yes no
I thing you can solve it by mutations,
the more the Mutations the more the ancient

zanipolo
23-03-11, 23:40
The adriatic veneti have nothing to do with the Vistula VeneDi as the Adriatic veneti came from the Este Culture.

The brittany Veneti where of celtic stock and where eliminated by Julius Caesar.

The adriatic Veneti had other venetic tribes as part of their culture, like the Istrians, the Carni in Carinthia, and others, though the carni where a mix of venetic and celtic.

The i2a2 in the veneto was brought in to the area by the Ostrogoths who settled there for over 200 years and thats why you have an architectural style called veneto-gothic

The i2a2 in illyria was also brought in by the goths.
The slavs got this hap group after mixing with the goths who settled in illyria


the Vistula VENEDI are from the baltic around pommerianarea , there brothers where the sklavani who resisted north of old Prussia and started to migrate AFTER the goths migration from Sweden/gotland

how yes no 2
24-03-11, 00:13
The adriatic veneti have nothing to do with the Vistula VeneDi as the Adriatic veneti came from the Este Culture.

The brittany Veneti where of celtic stock and where eliminated by Julius Caesar.

Celtic, Slavic, Italic, Germanic are just cultures/languages...
people change culture/language... around 300 BC or in times that are in time scale of evolution of haplogroup branches like two days ago, latin was spoken only in close proximity of little village called Rome...now languages derived from it are widely spoken in Europe and latin America....

at year 300 AD or 500 AD one can perhaps claim that different Veneti tribes are unrelated (although there are no historic records of them not being related, only recent reconstructions of some modern interpreters of history).. but how can you claim that people related to different Veneti tribes are not related in e.g. 200 BC or 500BC or 1000 BC.... in my opinion, tribal names tend to hold more tightly to genetics than languages...

people keep mixing genetics and culture... but those are measured on totally different time scales... PIE language which was parent language of Celtic, Slavic, Germanic, Italic, Iranian, Indian speakers is estimated to have been single language 3700BC....now in genetic evolution terms that was like last month..

good indication that Veneti were I2a spreading people is that I2a* samples we find only in locations of Veneti in Britanny and Adriatic... that correlation is highly unlikely to be a coincidence...

there is easy scenario of I2a Veneti being PIE people and splitting into several groups from which mixing with local people different branches of IE languages came to existence....

what other tribal name is related to all subgroups of Europe IE languages: Italic, Celtic, Slavic, Germanic?
None!

this is good indication of Veneti being original PIE speakers in Europe

well pay attention to phrasing Jordanes uses

the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

this is clear indication that Jordanes was well aware of different Veneti people being related.... but I guess you are trying to tell me that biased 19th century (when history was a weapon)Germanic schoolroom interpreters of long gone history, know better than historic witness (who is btw. of Gothic origin)...


same likeliness of spreading PIE holds for I2a haplogroup. there is I2a1 in south Europe, I2a2 in east Europe, I2b people in central and north Europe.....

I can imagine that in times Veneti entered Europe only other PIE people lived in Scandinavia and Denmark (I1 haplogroup)...



The adriatic Veneti had other venetic tribes as part of their culture, like the Istrians, the Carni in Carinthia, and others, though the carni where a mix of venetic and celtic.

Slovene were in 7th century called Carantanians... they could easily been genetically same people as Carni... whether they were perhaps linguistically same people is unknown...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caranthanians



The i2a2 in the veneto was brought in to the area by the Ostrogoths who settled there for over 200 years and thats why you have an architectural style called veneto-gothic

The i2a2 in illyria was also brought in by the goths.
The slavs got this hap group after mixing with the goths who settled in illyria


I did consider this scenario...
But there are no traces of I2a2 in lands conquered by Goths like in south France, Spain... also too little I2a2 in north Italy...

also in Hercegovina frequency of I2a2 is so big, that if they origin from Goths they would have to have lot of Germanic words preserved...but they do not.... if 100 persons settle in village of 1000 people, it will not happen that 1000 people forget completely own language and start speaking with language brought by 100 persons...that just does not happen...
to compare, in Serbia, Macedonia, Albania, Greece there are still villages that speak latin-derived languages....




the Vistula VENEDI are from the baltic around pommerianarea , there brothers where the sklavani who resisted north of old Prussia and started to migrate AFTER the goths migration from Sweden/gotland
no need to give interpretations of historic statements when there is clear statement you make allusions to...


Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html
Jordanes - the origin and deeds of Goths

Aesti are Balts.... no reason to equate Balts with Venedi as Jordanes would mention that Aesti origin from race of Veneti as well.... but Aesti have not much I2a, do they?

Jordanes says it clearly...around Vistula lives populous race of Venethi now scattered among many tribes and clans chief of them being Sclaveni and Antes

thus Vistula Venethi are same as later Sclaveni and Antes, and later Slavs or part of them...

Venedi, Celtic, vistula, and Adriatic Veneti, Vandali.... perhaps spoke different languages but preserved same tribal name... do you know Finish name for Russians? it is Venäläiset


if proto-Slavic people are not Venetic race as claimed by Jordanes, how do you explain the following picture (showing clines in Europe based on genetics of blood polymorphisms), knowing that historic Slavs never settled in north Italy (wider Veneti area) or south Spain (Andalusia named by Vandali)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SrzveEX3EmI/AAAAAAAACAU/x-z3DCoFeu0/s400/pc1.jpg
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/10/migrationism-strikes-back.html

zanipolo
24-03-11, 03:14
You seem to quote Jordanes who has no idea of the adriatic veneti as he was born in 600AD of gothic stock, first hand account of the venetic was from Polybius who was there at the time or for a modern knowledgeable historian..John Wilkes. I suggest you update you references, be it Polybius ( first hand account ) or Wilkes ( modern )

Other tribal names , just in italy since Italic was only from Umbria to calabria, was the Sicels, etruscans, venetics, Ligurians , other other smaller ones.
There is also Iberic, Helvetic, Finnic, Gallic, Venetic, Ugric, Brittanic, Hellenic the list is endless. All western terminology ends in ic .
You need to start your history when the first written script was done ( or before) and not on the decline of the Roman Empire

The name Veneti was a romanized slang name, its not even in Latin for the Venetic people.

Your map is just a map , you also presented maps where the historical culture of the Veneti/venetic included Istria........its just a map, Jordanes probably did not even know what a map was the at the time .

In the Hap group , was there not to different gothic people , Ostrogoth and Visigoth, I found no reference that they where related , this being the case , one could have departed from swedish land and the other from danish or finnic lands.

You can inherit a hap group without inheriting a language, take the case of Lombardy, Etruscan at first , then invaded by the Gallic people, after the eventual loss of the war by the etruscans, lombardy became gallic with R1b, then the celtic superseded the Gauls around 100BC and finally the Lombard migrated there ( people some say came from old east germany area.) , conclusion different HAP group entered in Lombardy and now they speak Italian

VEN is very important to you !! There is also Venezuela are they Veneti too?

zanipolo
24-03-11, 03:33
@ How yes and No

Buy or read

Noricum by Geza Alfoldy ......Chaucer press

If you do not believe the western writer John Wilkes

how yes no 2
06-08-11, 13:54
actually, I think I might have been wrong all along about Veneti...

if we look at haplogroup J1 we can see its high concentrations in Asia minor and lower spreads in certain areas in Europe. Plausible explanation is that some of J1 in Europe comes from Asia minor.

Indeed we can see hole in spread of J1 in Lydia in Asia minor and hotspot in area of Etruscans, and we know from Greek historians that Lydians claimed to be people from whom Etruscans departed in times of 18-years long hunger...

Similarly, we know that Veneti were pushed out from Paphlagonia, which means they have had some J1 and have spread it in Europe. Indeed, again there is J1 hole in Paphlagonia and we can observe elevated levels corresponding to known locations of Veneti of Europe - in northwest Italy (Veneto, but also also Istria as Liburnians are by some historic accounts also of Venetian origin) and in Baltic sea shores where Veneti more or less lived...

however, we do not see much J1 in Slavic people (Serbs being an exception)...
thus, Jordanes was probably wrong, early Slavs were not from race of Veneti...

even more, there is no I2a in areas where J1 peaks in Baltic shores... so Veneti were not I2a dominant people..



http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J1.gif

LeBrok
06-08-11, 21:19
Wow, that's a commending self-criticism how yes no. Very refreshing. ;)

zanipolo
06-08-11, 23:03
Since investigating the Pommerains, I came across documentation, that basically states that the Baltic venedi where not the venedae or the Venthi.
The baltic veneti living on the coast next to the aestui had disappeared by 100AD, the Venedae, according to this source was the modern lithuanians. Since the Aestui where the modern Estonians, the source placing the venedae north of them ( that is north of the old town of memel ) seems to fit with the Livonian area
Henry of Livonia (Henricus de Lettis), who in his Latin chronicle, dating from the very beginning of the thirteenth century, described a clearly non-Slavic tribe of the Vindi (German Winden, English Wends) which lived in Courland and Livonia (on the territory of today’s Latvia). The tribe’s memory lives on in the name of the river Windau (Latvian Venta), with the town of Windau (Latvian Ventspils) at its mouth, and in Wenden.

The letts ( and i am still looking at documentation ) seem to be what the Venedae of the lithauanian and latvian are
Latvians or Letts (Latvian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_language): latvieši; Livonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livonian_language): laett) are the indigenous Baltic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts) people of Latvia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia).
The paternal Haplogroup N1c1 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N_%28Y-DNA%29) is the most frequent (45%) among Latvians and is shared with other Northern European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe) nations of Finnic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finnic_peoples) stock, namely Finns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finns), Estonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estonians) and others; and also the fellow Baltic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balts) Lithuanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanians).

The Venethi seem to represent the Vandals that stayed around central europe after the others marched to italy , spain and africa

Bold = copied text

zanipolo
12-08-11, 10:30
On the venethi , they never existed , a fabrication by Jordanes

http://www.drevnosti.org/the-slavic-antiquities/47-articles/79-hiding-behind-a-piece-of-tapestry-jordanes-and-the-slavic-venethi

LeBrok
12-08-11, 18:04
Just read few paragraphs, and sounds well written and very informative. Great find zanipolo, thanks. I'll finish it later when time allows.

Taranis
12-08-11, 20:50
Just read few paragraphs, and sounds well written and very informative. Great find zanipolo, thanks. I'll finish it later when time allows.

I would like to second this. It's a good read.

Bodin
15-08-11, 23:28
What I meant is that you should explain what movements and settlements caused that people in Herzegovina have 63,8% of I2a2 and those who live in Veneto most likely have less then 3% (this is my estimation from Rootsi et al study from 2004, see my previous post).
Maybe it is because Herzegovina is settled by Red Croats and Serbs both Sarmatian tribes , settlings and there was no settlements by other nations since , and Veneto had few movements in since Enetian move- Celts, Romans , Germans few times . There is strong I2a2 around Veneto like in Trento and Slovenia and it had to come from somewhere. Sorry for jumping in to conversation , but I think I can contribute in resolving issue

Bodin
15-08-11, 23:35
The adriatic veneti have nothing to do with the Vistula VeneDi as the Adriatic veneti came from the Este Culture.

The brittany Veneti where of celtic stock and where eliminated by Julius Caesar.

The adriatic Veneti had other venetic tribes as part of their culture, like the Istrians, the Carni in Carinthia, and others, though the carni where a mix of venetic and celtic.

The i2a2 in the veneto was brought in to the area by the Ostrogoths who settled there for over 200 years and thats why you have an architectural style called veneto-gothic

The i2a2 in illyria was also brought in by the goths.
The slavs got this hap group after mixing with the goths who settled in illyria


the Vistula VENEDI are from the baltic around pommerianarea , there brothers where the sklavani who resisted north of old Prussia and started to migrate AFTER the goths migration from Sweden/gotland
That cant be true because if Goths are carriors of I2a2 how come there is no I2a2 in Gotlanda , Sweden where they come from . And how do you explain I2a2 in Kurds , north Ossetians and Volga Tatars- only explanation is that I2a2 is Sarmatian who were of Medean origin by Diodorus . Only thing Goths brought on Balkans and Italy was I1 and some R1a

zanipolo
16-08-11, 01:53
That cant be true because if Goths are carriors of I2a2 how come there is no I2a2 in Gotlanda , Sweden where they come from . And how do you explain I2a2 in Kurds , north Ossetians and Volga Tatars- only explanation is that I2a2 is Sarmatian who were of Medean origin by Diodorus . Only thing Goths brought on Balkans and Italy was I1 and some R1a


I was reading this thread
Thread: The founding and migration of I2a2b (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26211-The-founding-and-migration-of-I2a2b/page3)

And also V .Battaglia from 2008 .

In regards to the adriatic Veneti , they would have I2a2a ( according to Battaglia) , same as Istrian and north adriatic island people

I2a2 was originally I1b - Haplogroup I1b was derived within Viking/Scandinavian populations in northwest Europe and has since spread down into southern Europe where it is present at low frequencies. Defined by the SNP marker P37,

Goga
16-08-11, 02:48
No, I2a2 is a subclade of the I2, formerly know as I1b. I2 is 15.000 years old and evolved from I. And I in turn evolved from the more archaic 'Garden of Eden' haplogroup IJ.

But, the Viking haplogroup I1b was formely known as I1a1, I1a3 and I1a4. It's only for about 4.000 years old. Subclade I1b evolved from I1. I1 is younger than I2, but evolved separately from the archaic I.

Subclade I1b evolved from I1.
Subclade I2a2 evolved from I2.

zanipolo
16-08-11, 03:17
No, I2a2 is a subclade of the I2, formerly know as I1b. I2 is 15.000 years old and evolved from I. And I in turn evolved from the more archaic 'Garden of Eden' haplogroup IJ.

But, the Viking haplogroup I1b was formely known as I1a1, I1a3 and I1a4. It's only for about 4.000 years old. Subclade I1b evolved from I1. I1 is younger than I2, but evolved separately from the archaic I.

Subclade I1b evolved from I1.
Subclade I2a2 evolved from I2.

well the net is wrong because I took bold text directly from a site from the wiki site.

Ok by me if you know something else

Goga
16-08-11, 03:30
Well, I don't understand anything, but I've got this from wiki too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA (http://<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA</a>)))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA (http://<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA</a>)))


What is 'sparkey' saying about this issue? He's an expert on haplogorup I.

zanipolo
16-08-11, 04:00
Well, I don't understand anything, but I've got this from wiki too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA (http://<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA</a>)))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA (http://<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA</a>)))


What is 'sparkey' saying about this issue? He's an expert on haplogorup I.

Majority of I marker is P37, and it is in dalmatia, croatia and istrian ( coastal areas) If I1b has this marker .................well .....I do not know anymore

Goga
16-08-11, 05:21
Maybe you're just confused because the names have been changed.

P37 marker belongs to I2 and not to I1, as far as I know.

Here is an Eupedia current tree of Y haplogroups. Even a layman like me understands it.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/timeline_comparison.gif

5081

sparkey
16-08-11, 05:25
Well, I don't understand anything, but I've got this from wiki too.

[/URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA (http://%3Ca%20href=%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3Ehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I1_%28Y-DNA%3C/a%3E%29))
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_(Y-DNA (http://%3Ca%20href=%22http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA%22%20target=%22_blank%22%3Ehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I2_%28Y-DNA%3C/a%3E%29))


What is 'sparkey' saying about this issue? He's an expert on haplogorup I.

You've got it right. I2 is ancestral to I2a, I2a is ancestral to I2a2, etc. I1b is just a really old nomenclature for I2a1b ("I2a2" is also old nomenclature now unless you're referring to what was I2b until recently). It's best to refer to Nordtvedt (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/) for the most current stuff, see "Tree and Map For Hg I."

Goga
16-08-11, 05:27
You've got it right. I2 is ancestral to I2a, I2a is ancestral to I2a2, etc. I1b is just a really old nomenclature for I2a1b ("I2a2" is also old nomenclature now unless you're referring to what was I2b until recently). It's best to refer to Nordtvedt (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/) for the most current stuff, see "Tree and Map For Hg I."
Thanks. I've just a question: are you Nordtvedt?

sparkey
16-08-11, 09:06
Thanks. I've just a question: are you Nordtvedt?

No. :laughing: Ken Nordtvedt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Nordtvedt) is quite a lot more accomplished than I am.

I haven't contributed much to the analysis of Haplogroup I other than some clustering exploration of I2c, which I've communicated with Bob May, who is the expert on I2c. The rest I've learned from things that people like Ken Nordtvedt have posted online.

zanipolo
16-08-11, 09:35
No. :laughing: Ken Nordtvedt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenneth_Nordtvedt) is quite a lot more accomplished than I am.

I haven't contributed much to the analysis of Haplogroup I other than some clustering exploration of I2c, which I've communicated with Bob May, who is the expert on I2c. The rest I've learned from things that people like Ken Nordtvedt have posted online.

Great

So according to Battaglia in 2008 he noted northEast italians have I2a2a , I do know some of the croatians islands ( ancient Lubarni tribe ) and istria have this marker as well?. ...........anyone else or its it too defined to this small area?

sparkey
16-08-11, 18:21
Great

So according to Battaglia in 2008 he noted northEast italians have I2a2a , I do know some of the croatians islands ( ancient Lubarni tribe ) and istria have this marker as well?. ...........anyone else or its it too defined to this small area?

"I2a2a" in this case is I2a-L69? If so, that's the common subclade to the Balkans and nearby. Bosnia-Herzegovina is nearly 50% I2a-L69!

zanipolo
16-08-11, 23:16
"I2a2a" in this case is I2a-L69? If so, that's the common subclade to the Balkans and nearby. Bosnia-Herzegovina is nearly 50% I2a-L69!

Thanks. Tell me please, how accurate is this below
http://danel.us/resources/I2+Patriarchs+Hypothetical+family+tree.pdf

sparkey
16-08-11, 23:25
Thanks. Tell me please, how accurate is this below
http://danel.us/resources/I2+Patriarchs+Hypothetical+family+tree.pdf

It is quite accurate, although it's missing some important recently discovered SNPs that unite the "I2a" and "I2b" in it into a new "I2a," and making "I2c" the new "I2b," and also new SNPs making "I2*" the new "I2c." See Nordtvedt's tree for all those included.

One minor nitpick is that I don't know of a reason to think that I2c-B and I2c-C are more closely related to each other than either is to I2c-A. Their STRs indicate that they branched from one another at pretty much the same time, and we don't have SNPs to confirm one way or another. Using DYS607 is insufficient because it conflicts with DYS393. Until we find SNPs that group 2 together, we should assume those clusters branched at the same time. (Not that I2c is relevant to this discussion).

zanipolo
17-08-11, 00:37
My Theory on the Adriatic Veneti.

They originated as an Illyrian tribe from eastern istria, around 1000BC, some sailed and landed on the Veneto plains and pushed the Gallic Eugenai tribe into the foot of the Alps.
They then established towns such as Ateste (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ateste) ( Este ), Acelum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acelum), Patavium ( Padua) , Opitergium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opitergium)( Oderzo), Belunum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belluno)( Belluno), and Vicetia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicenza) (Vicenza). They still retained people in Istria ( near modern Parenzo).
Trading salt from the Po delta, and also fish with locals along the Po River brought them riches. They commenced the
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este_culture

The name Veneti was given by the Romans – Venetus , which means a blue/green sea colour. So, Veneti came from the sea. - http://latinlexicon.org/definition.php?p1=2062408&p2=v&p3=2
Other reference to venetus - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetus_A

They had constant wars with the gallic tribes from both the west and the east ( carni ).
Due to the trade their Venetic language spread in all directions incorporating the Eugenai, Cennomani, Vennotes, Carni, Libarni, Catali and other tribes. Many tribes originally thought to have been Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), such as Carni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carni), Histri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histri) and Liburni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburni), were actually related to Veneti by language.
They had celtic ( gallic ) armor and dress and different customs Herodotus mentions a peculiar custom as existing among the Veneti in his day, that they sold their daughters by auction to the highest bidder, as a mode of disposing of them in marriage (1.196). We learn also that they habitually wore black garments, a taste which may be said to be retained by the Venetians down to the present day, but was connected by the poets and mythographers with the fables concerning the fall of Phaëton. (Scymn. Ch. 396.)
As Roman power grew, they aligned with Roman and aided them in founding Aquileria , a Roman town/fortress to suppress the gallic/celtic Carni ( who also spoke Venetic ). They even aided Rome in their wars against Hannibal and where slaughter at Cannae. During the Second Punic War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Punic_War), they allied with the Romans against the Celts, Iberians, and the Carthaginian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthago) expedition (218-203 BC) led by Hannibal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hannibal). They even sent troops to fight along with the Romans at the battle of Cannae.
The Veneti even prevented a Spartan Invasion - It is clear that they were a people considerably more advanced in civilisation than either the Gauls or the Ligurians, and the account given by Livy (10.2 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Liv.%2010.2&lang=original)) of the landing of Cleonymus in the territory of Patavium (B.C. 302) proves that at that period Patavium at least was a powerful and well organised city.

Around 100BC, they where mostly fully Latinized.

After the barbarian Invasions, the Veneti migrated to the lagoon and used timber , stone and Istrian Marble to create a City called Venice. This volume of timber,… that is millions of logs plus tons of marble and stone all came from Istria, which means they ( veneti) had never lost Istria from 1000BC.
The rest belongs to the Republic of Venice history.

As for Homer epics, I believe that he is a great writer that was plagued by inaccurate bards ( story tellers) who confused facts from many epics into the Trojan war. Homer wrote the Iliad 400 years after it occurred. Homer writes :
And the rugged heart of Pylaemenes led the Paphlagonians, from the land of the Eneti, whence the breed of wild mules
This is a mix of 2 stories, firstly the only Enete is the ancient town, later called Amisus and now called Samsun. The present name of the city may come from its former Greek name of Amisos by a shortening of Eis Amisos (meaning to Amisos) + ounta (Greek suffix for place names) to Sampsunda (Σαμψούντα) and then Samsun[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsun#cite_note-0) (pronounced [sɑmsun] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_Turkish,_Azerbaijani_and_Turkmen )). The early Greek historian Hecataeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecataeus_of_Miletus) wrote that Amisos was formerly called Enete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eneti), the place mentioned in Homer's Iliad.
This town is situated in the old Greek area of the Pontus, while the Paphlagonians where from the modern town of Sinope. If Paphlagonians where in both areas then they must have been as great as the Hittite Empire.
The second story is that of Jason and the Argonauts from Argos, Arcadia in Greece. He sailed to the Pontus area ( Cochis) to steal the fleece, escaped with Medea and rested at Enete town, he then sailed back to Greece ( some say he eventually sailed to the north Adriatic )
The mix of stories, in my opinion led to a confusion about the Eneti/Enetoi.

Genetics say from 2008 , that the NorthEast Italians have some I2a2a ( about 10%). To me this is what it is now, I wonder what The marker was in the bronze and iron ages in the North Eastern area of Italy. Its also odd, that the Friuli ( carni) have this G2a3b1a marker which is similar to the Rhaeti one. Why is this marker not present except in the alps.

Anyway my theory can also have a high percentage of bardic license.

Bold text indicates copied from the net

zanipolo
17-08-11, 01:20
It is quite accurate, although it's missing some important recently discovered SNPs that unite the "I2a" and "I2b" in it into a new "I2a," and making "I2c" the new "I2b," and also new SNPs making "I2*" the new "I2c." See Nordtvedt's tree for all those included.

One minor nitpick is that I don't know of a reason to think that I2c-B and I2c-C are more closely related to each other than either is to I2c-A. Their STRs indicate that they branched from one another at pretty much the same time, and we don't have SNPs to confirm one way or another. Using DYS607 is insufficient because it conflicts with DYS393. Until we find SNPs that group 2 together, we should assume those clusters branched at the same time. (Not that I2c is relevant to this discussion).

I truly dislike the renaming policy in Genetics ......causes conflicts with amateurs like me.

zanipolo
01-09-11, 10:39
Continuining from my post #59

I have been reading a lot of Venedi ( baltic) and have found that the title of nobility for Mecklenburg states king of the goths, king of the venedi and king of the vandals. this title is also used as part of the Swedish Royal family since the peace of Westphalia in 1648.
The earliest years I can find the venedi is in mecklenburg 320BC
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=7wYHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA91&dq=heruli+venedi&hl=en&ei=SjJfTsPqOYPamAXp8YAT&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=heruli%20venedi&f=false

They where called vandals by the Swedes from the swedish word vand which means wend. And this word is pre christondom.
The german word wend seems to apply only to slavs and it was first used around 700AD

Some say the venedi along with the Heruli and vandals where originally swedish people north of Skane, basically where stockholm is at present.

some time between 320BC and tactus times they moved with the Heruli along the coast to the vistula area and then disappeared or merged with goths or prussians.

Around 700AD to 900AD , the west-slavic people filled the void of east-german and pommerian lands and reached as far as mecklenburg. In the 12thcentury Henry the Lion , a saxon, destroyed all the west-slavic people in Mecklenburg and vorpommern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade

Its interesting that the swedish terminoly of Vand = wend = swedish people on the continent.
And a leter terminoly by the Germans for wend = slavis ?! ( or did they mean something else)

zanipolo
01-09-11, 12:06
Continuining from my post #59

I have been reading a lot of Venedi ( baltic) and have found that the title of nobility for Mecklenburg states king of the goths, king of the venedi and king of the vandals. this title is also used as part of the Swedish Royal family since the peace of Westphalia in 1648.
The earliest years I can find the venedi is in mecklenburg 320BC
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=7wYHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA91&dq=heruli+venedi&hl=en&ei=SjJfTsPqOYPamAXp8YAT&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=heruli%20venedi&f=false

They where called vandals by the Swedes from the swedish word vand which means wend. And this word is pre christondom.
The german word wend seems to apply only to slavs and it was first used around 700AD

Some say the venedi along with the Heruli and vandals where originally swedish people north of Skane, basically where stockholm is at present.

some time between 320BC and tactus times they moved with the Heruli along the coast to the vistula area and then disappeared or merged with goths or prussians.

Around 700AD to 900AD , the west-slavic people filled the void of east-german and pommerian lands and reached as far as mecklenburg. In the 12thcentury Henry the Lion , a saxon, destroyed all the west-slavic people in Mecklenburg and vorpommern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade

Its interesting that the swedish terminoly of Vand = wend = swedish people on the continent.
And a leter terminoly by the Germans for wend = slavis ?! ( or did they mean something else)

Dorianfinder
01-09-11, 13:17
Continuining from my post #59

I have been reading a lot of Venedi ( baltic) and have found that the title of nobility for Mecklenburg states king of the goths, king of the venedi and king of the vandals. this title is also used as part of the Swedish Royal family since the peace of Westphalia in 1648.
The earliest years I can find the venedi is in mecklenburg 320BC
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=7wYHAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA91&dq=heruli+venedi&hl=en&ei=SjJfTsPqOYPamAXp8YAT&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDEQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=heruli%20venedi&f=false

They where called vandals by the Swedes from the swedish word vand which means wend. And this word is pre christondom.
The german word wend seems to apply only to slavs and it was first used around 700AD

Some say the venedi along with the Heruli and vandals where originally swedish people north of Skane, basically where stockholm is at present.

some time between 320BC and tactus times they moved with the Heruli along the coast to the vistula area and then disappeared or merged with goths or prussians.

Around 700AD to 900AD , the west-slavic people filled the void of east-german and pommerian lands and reached as far as mecklenburg. In the 12thcentury Henry the Lion , a saxon, destroyed all the west-slavic people in Mecklenburg and vorpommern
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wendish_Crusade

Its interesting that the swedish terminoly of Vand = wend = swedish people on the continent.
And a leter terminoly by the Germans for wend = slavis ?! ( or did they mean something else)

The word 'vandal' is akin to the Germanic word 'wandel' meaning to shift continuously or wander around from one place to another as in the Dutch and Flemish 'wandal'.

Have you considered that the Veneti may originally have been from the Black Sea coast of Paphlagonia with a diffusion of genetic input from the broader Veneto/Lombardy/Tyrol/Dalmatia regions and possibly other areas too?

The Genoans and Venetians were not tribes but merchant-Republics based on sea trade. The Veneti may likely have been established in the Veneto back in the day but to assume that there has been a continuous and unbroken presence of Veneti seems a stretch ambitious even for a Venetian.

The Veneti from the Black Sea coast according to Strabo were able navigators who traveled the seas. It would make sense that they were influenced by and had influenced many other populations along the coasts of the Med.

zanipolo
01-09-11, 13:44
The word 'vandal' is akin to the Germanic word 'wandel' meaning to shift continuously or wander around from one place to another as in the Dutch and Flemish 'wandal'.

Have you considered that the Veneti may originally have been from the Black Sea coast of Paphlagonia with a diffusion of genetic input from the broader Veneto/Lombardy/Tyrol/Dalmatia regions and possibly other areas too?

The Genoans and Venetians were not tribes but merchant-Republics based on sea trade. The Veneti may likely have been established in the Veneto back in the day but to assume that there has been a continuous and unbroken presence of Veneti seems a stretch ambitious even for a Venetian.

The Veneti from the Black Sea coast according to Strabo were able navigators who traveled the seas. It would make sense that they were influenced by and had influenced many other populations along the coasts of the Med.


The veneti ( adriatic) , Venedi ( baltic ) and veneti ( brittany ) are all different race.

I do not beleive the veneti of the adriatic came from the black sea ( and I explained reasons in previous posts ) . these veneti came from istria of illyrian stock, grabbed a foothold of the plains of veneto and stayed, when they went to the lagoons in 462 AD and created Venice the city , they became venetians, the mainland peoples of the veneto, the eugenai, camuni, cenomani, trimphili, venosses, ladini and raeti became the veneti.
The system was for venetians only to run the government and not veneti, this last 700 years until the 4th Genoese-venetian war , when venice in dire trouble, allowed rich merchants veneti families to become venetians and enter the nobility.

The original mainland veneti where gallic-ligurian people.

As for the Venedi - There is no written script to tell. I think they where balts, finns , letts and now swedes.

The Brittany veneti where gallic celts and could have been initially related to the venedi IF they came from norse lands.

The only way this black sea homeric tale could happen , is if the veneti stopped in istria for 200 years, because Istria was where the material was taken , both timber and marble to build the city of venice. Istria remained in Venice or italian hands until 1975 when Aldo Moro signed it over to tito and yugoslavia.

BTW, I agree with you that all 3 Veneti/venedi lived along the coast and where very good seamen

Dorianfinder
01-09-11, 16:08
The veneti ( adriatic) , Venedi ( baltic ) and veneti ( brittany ) are all different race.

I do not beleive the veneti of the adriatic came from the black sea ( and I explained reasons in previous posts ) . these veneti came from istria of illyrian stock, grabbed a foothold of the plains of veneto and stayed, when they went to the lagoons in 462 AD and created Venice the city , they became venetians, the mainland peoples of the veneto, the eugenai, camuni, cenomani, trimphili, venosses, ladini and raeti became the veneti.
The system was for venetians only to run the government and not veneti, this last 700 years until the 4th Genoese-venetian war , when venice in dire trouble, allowed rich merchants veneti families to become venetians and enter the nobility.

The original mainland veneti where gallic-ligurian people.

As for the Venedi - There is no written script to tell. I think they where balts, finns , letts and now swedes.

The Brittany veneti where gallic celts and could have been initially related to the venedi IF they came from norse lands.

The only way this black sea homeric tale could happen , is if the veneti stopped in istria for 200 years, because Istria was where the material was taken , both timber and marble to build the city of venice. Istria remained in Venice or italian hands until 1975 when Aldo Moro signed it over to tito and yugoslavia.

BTW, I agree with you that all 3 Veneti/venedi lived along the coast and where very good seamen

I would include more than the geographic location of Istria. What about the entire coast of Dalmatia stretching down into the North West of Greece. The ancient Illyrians inhabited this entire region, however there were other tribes too.

The Gallo-Ligurian people would not have made up a significant part of the paleo-Veneti. I do agree that the people settled along the Adriatic east coast played their role in the formation of the paleo-Veneto community. It seems we agree that the Veneti were a sea-faring people, however I believe the Veneti were composed of various 'ethnic' groups that had the sea-faring tradition in common, as well as trade with the east.

The Gallo-Ligurian people were most likely to Genoa what the people of Dalmatia and Istria may have been to the Veneto. The Ligurians would have had a significant Gallic component whereas the Veneti would have had a significant cultural component from the Levant and Greco-Roman traditions made up of local people from the surrounding coastline.

Aristocracy as official language are dictated by politics not ancient population genetics. Likewise, materials and resources are also related to trade and political relations.

In summary I would have to say that the Veneti would more than likely have been a creole people, poor and isolated in the mountainous coastal regions, the language would have been a hodgepodge soup of words, phrases and hand gestures from the broader region. Just a glance at pre-17th century Venetian population registries will indicate how mixed the Venetian citizenry actually were. Slavic, Albanian, German, Italian, Greek, Armenian etc. The names soon change and people are prone to identify with their masters.:cool-v:

... similar to the USA today! Eventually, most empires end up being ruled by the more populace slave population. In the case of Venice this could well be the servants and farm laborers from Istria. Together with materials they brought cheap labor and orphans to serve the madame and the seigneur.

Taranis
01-09-11, 16:19
Regarding the Baltic Venedi and Vandals: in my opinion, the term "Venedi"/"Wends" is an exonym (much like "Walha-"/"Welsh"/"Walloon"/"Wallach" is an exonym), and I agree that it's kind of likely that there was no direct connection between the medieval (West Slavic) Wends and the earlier Venedi beyond the Vistula. Ptolemy talks about "greater" and "lesser" Venedae. Some of the Venedi were clearly Balts (such as the Galindians and the Sudovians, both which are also mentioned by Ptolemy), but it's also likely that the Venedi weren't a homogenous ethnic group either (especially if "Venedi" was an exonym), so it actually is possible that some of the Venedi living in the inland were actually Proto-Slavic. On the other hand, the term "Venedi" seems only to be applied for the coastal tribes.

Regarding a connection between "Vandals" and "Wends", it should be pointed out that the area inhabited by the Wends in Medieval times was not inhabited previously by the Vandals. Instead, the Suebi inhabited that area, and the Vandals lived much farther to the east and south (in the approximate area of Silesia).

zanipolo
02-09-11, 10:12
I would include more than the geographic location of Istria. What about the entire coast of Dalmatia stretching down into the North West of Greece. The ancient Illyrians inhabited this entire region, however there were other tribes too.

The Gallo-Ligurian people would not have made up a significant part of the paleo-Veneti. I do agree that the people settled along the Adriatic east coast played their role in the formation of the paleo-Veneto community. It seems we agree that the Veneti were a sea-faring people, however I believe the Veneti were composed of various 'ethnic' groups that had the sea-faring tradition in common, as well as trade with the east.

The Gallo-Ligurian people were most likely to Genoa what the people of Dalmatia and Istria may have been to the Veneto. The Ligurians would have had a significant Gallic component whereas the Veneti would have had a significant cultural component from the Levant and Greco-Roman traditions made up of local people from the surrounding coastline.

Aristocracy as official language are dictated by politics not ancient population genetics. Likewise, materials and resources are also related to trade and political relations.

In summary I would have to say that the Veneti would more than likely have been a creole people, poor and isolated in the mountainous coastal regions, the language would have been a hodgepodge soup of words, phrases and hand gestures from the broader region. Just a glance at pre-17th century Venetian population registries will indicate how mixed the Venetian citizenry actually were. Slavic, Albanian, German, Italian, Greek, Armenian etc. The names soon change and people are prone to identify with their masters.:cool-v:

... similar to the USA today! Eventually, most empires end up being ruled by the more populace slave population. In the case of Venice this could well be the servants and farm laborers from Istria. Together with materials they brought cheap labor and orphans to serve the madame and the seigneur.

The modern Venetian language is not in question here even though it started at the time of chris as is still being spoken at present. If you look at wiki on the venetian language it will tell you its closer to french and spanish instead of italian.
This indicates that the original people in the veneto before the 'veneti" arrived where of gallic-ligurian descent.
Sure there are german words for drink = trinker, catalian word for glass = goto, french word for apple = pomo and greek work for fork =piron ( is this greek because italy had the fork before the greeks!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_language
or
get English-Venetian dictionary by Ludovico Pizzati ( an American) , written in English

But as I stated , the venedi did not speak venetic only the veneti did in ancient times. There is no written script from the venedi. There is no common association between the venedi and the veneti , not even the amber road, which was commenced by the aestii .

so I do not know where you are heading to

Dorianfinder
02-09-11, 14:49
I do not know where you are heading to

You shouldn't ask where I'm heading you should be looking to find the facts!


The modern Venetian language is not in question here even though it started at the time of chris as is still being spoken at present. If you look at wiki on the venetian language it will tell you its closer to french and spanish instead of italian.
This indicates that the original people in the veneto before the 'veneti" arrived where of gallic-ligurian descent.
Sure there are german words for drink = trinker, catalian word for glass = goto, french word for apple = pomo and greek work for fork =piron ( is this greek because italy had the fork before the greeks!)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_language


You contradict yourself by stating there is no question regarding the Venetian language and then give clear evidence that it is made up of various Med. linguistic influences besides the one you claim. So your evidence refutes your own Gallic-Ligurian hypothesis, try again. Besides the Venetians and Genoans have been arche-enemies since time-immemorial, why would you make such a claim, I don't suppose you are a libro d'oro addict who claims decent from the Lombard and French houses.

The word for table-fork is Greek as it was introduced to common table etiquette following its use by a Byzantine lady during her travels to the courts of Europe around the 15th century. Before this there had been a picking utensil unlike the table fork or 'piron'.


The modern Venetian language is not in question here

Modern Venetian spoken in the heart of the Veneto region today is viewed as an Italian dialect. The difference between Italian and Venetian lies in these words you mention that are to be found throughout the Med. So modern Venetian is not a separate language as you assert, but a dialect or Italian with differences reflecting the mix of peoples that made up the Venetian populace.:bored:

Concerning the Veneti, research does not confirm your hypothesis about Gallo-Ligurians.
Archeological excavations currently underway in the Veneto at sites such as Este (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este,_Italy), Padua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padua), Oderzo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oderzo), Adria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adria), Vicenza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicenza), Verona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verona) and Altinum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altinum) all indicate the influence of the Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) in the Adriatic and their very strong links to the ancient Veneti. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti

The Illyrian hypothesis is popular but as yet no hard evidence exists. The Illyrian language, or what has been proposed as such is in fact a mangle of derived placenames and personal names that reflect everything from Thracian, Greek, Albanian, to Italian. Again, confirming my hypothesis that they were most likely a creole community based along the east-coast of the Adriatic down to the North West Balkans.

Etrusco-romano
02-09-11, 15:12
Look, i write two sentences, one in Latin and one in Veneto, look how much similarity:

Venetic: MEGO DONASTO S'AINATEI REITIAI PORAI EGETORA (A)IMOI KE LOUDEROBOS

Latin: ME DONAVIT SANANTI REITIAE PORAE EGETORAE PRO AIMO ET LIBERIS

Two languages very similar: to similar to belong to different ethnic branches, in my opinion
The Venetians were very probably belonging to the Italic branch of the "Latin-Faliscan", like the Romans; with this relationship we justify the fact that Rome never invaded the Veneto, but integrated it into his own world peacefully.

Dorianfinder
02-09-11, 16:17
Look, i write two sentences, one in Latin and one in Veneto, look how much similarity:

Venetic: MEGO DONASTO S'AINATEI REITIAI PORAI EGETORA (A)IMOI KE LOUDEROBOS

Latin: ME DONAVIT SANANTI REITIAE PORAE EGETORAE PRO AIMO ET LIBERIS

Two languages very similar: to similar to belong to different ethnic branches, in my opinion
The Venetians were very probably belonging to the Italic branch of the "Latin-Faliscan", like the Romans; with this relationship we justify the fact that Rome never invaded the Veneto, but integrated it into his own world peacefully.

To conclude based on linguistics alone that a community is somehow part of a 'Roman' ethnos lacks seriousness. The Veneto was formed into a Republic much later than ancient Rome. The Lombards fought against the Eastern Roman Empire who came to an agreement to allow Venice its autonomy. This all occurred after the capital of the Roman Empire was relocated to Byzantium. Venice became independent in 568AD when the first major tribunal was formed for the governing of the islands within the lagoon.

Latin was used in an official capacity but what was the colloquial Venetic dialect. This is the true expression of the Venetian people.

Etrusco-romano
02-09-11, 16:24
The phrase i reported is not "Venetian vulgar" or "Venetian-Latin" born after the Roman domination, is ancient "Venetic", of the second century BC.Traduci testo o pagina webWithout any contamination of Latin, the Venetics spoke a language really similar to Latin, much more of the Italic languages ​​closer to Rome (Umbro, Sannitico, Marrucino etc. ..)

Dorianfinder
02-09-11, 18:20
The phrase i reported is not "Venetian vulgar" or "Venetian-Latin" born after the Roman domination, is ancient "Venetic", of the second century BC.Traduci testo o pagina webWithout any contamination of Latin, the Venetics spoke a language really similar to Latin, much more of the Italic languages ​​closer to Rome (Umbro, Sannitico, Marrucino etc. ..)

The English translation of the Latin mistranslation reads: Egetora gave me to Reitia the healer for Aemus and his children.

There is more similarity between Venetic and Greek to a degree that one may even say that Latin is unrelated to Venetic in comparison to Greek. Firstly, there are three personal names, Egetora, Reitia and Aemus. Then we find in the Venetic the following words of Greek-origin.

MEGO = με εγω = I or me
DONA = εδοθηκα να 'δο... να' = was given for
STO = στο = to the
AINA = ενα = one
PORAI = ποραι = negotiated or mediated by
KE = και = and
Louderobos = λευθεροβιος = free (not a servant)

The use of ke in the Venetic appears to come directly from the Greek word for and, 'και'. What's more is we find in Venetic the use of 'i' instead of 'e' as in Latin to form the dual vowel combination as in 'ai' instead of the Latin 'ae'. This suggests further Greek influence as the sound 'e' is always written as 'αι' in relevant Greek form. This we find in the Venetic form of the personal name Reitiai and the word porai. Similarly the same is visible with regards to the Venetic form of Aemus which reflects further Greek influence. AIMOI has both Greek combinations 'ai' and 'oi', unlike the Latin. In choosing a Latin phrase you happened to find one with actual Greek vocabulary, widely recognized as such. The Latin ME comes from the Greek 'με' which is Greek for 'me' (English). What's fascinating is that the Venetic form of the Latin (ME) is MEGO which is profoundly Greek as the ancient Greek for 'I' (English) is 'εγω' also written 'ego' and 'με' meaning me are combined in Venetic form as ME-EGO and written MEGO.

The word PORAI may also have Greek origins, related to 'πορος' which means 'to deal' or negotiate and refers to resources as in 'να πορευω' meaning 'to deal'. The ancient Greek word for trader or dealer is 'πορος'.

There is an attempt to translate the Venetic inscription in terms of the Latin one it seems. If I read the Venetic in Greek is states simply:

Εγω δοθηκα σε ενα 'ονοματι' Ρειτιαι απο Εγητορα ιμοι και λευθεροβ(ι)oς.

Roughly translated it says 'I was given to one 'named' Reitiai by Egetora (mine) and freeborn.'

This statement refers to a servant who was given as a by her 'master' Egetora to one named Reitiai. I cannot confirm the Latin word SANANTI not found in the Venetic text, it appears to be unrelated to the rest of the text. If the Venetic precedes the Latin which is likely then the Latin is incorrect.

Etrusco-romano
02-09-11, 18:51
The English translation of the Latin mistranslation reads: Egetora gave me to Reitia the healer for Aemus and his children.

There is more similarity between Venetic and Greek to a degree that one may even say that Latin is unrelated to Venetic in comparison to Greek. Firstly, there are three personal names, Egetora, Reitia and Aemus. Then we find in the Venetic the following words of Greek-origin.

MEGO = με εγω = I or me
DONA = εδοθηκα να 'δο... να' = was given for
STO = στο = to the
AINA = ενα = one
PORAI = ποραι = negotiated or mediated by
KE = και = and
Louderobos = λευθεροβιος = free (not a servant)

The use of ke in the Venetic appears to come directly from the Greek word for and, 'και'. What's more is we find in Venetic the use of 'i' instead of 'e' as in Latin to form the dual vowel combination as in 'ai' instead of the Latin 'ae'. This suggests further Greek influence as the sound 'e' is always written as 'αι' in relevant Greek form. This we find in the Venetic form of the personal name Reitiai and the word porai. Similarly the same is visible with regards to the Venetic form of Aemus which reflects further Greek influence. AIMOI has both Greek combinations 'ai' and 'oi', unlike the Latin. In choosing a Latin phrase you happened to find one with actual Greek vocabulary, widely recognized as such. The Latin ME comes from the Greek 'με' which is Greek for 'me' (English). What's fascinating is that the Venetic form of the Latin (ME) is MEGO which is profoundly Greek as the ancient Greek for 'I' (English) is 'εγω' also written 'ego' and 'με' meaning me are combined in Venetic form as ME-EGO and written MEGO.

The word PORAI may also have Greek origins, related to 'πορος' which means 'to deal' or negotiate and refers to resources as in 'να πορευω' meaning 'to deal'. The ancient Greek word for trader or dealer is 'πορος'.

There is an attempt to translate the Venetic inscription in terms of the Latin one it seems. If I read the Venetic in Greek is states simply:

Εγω δοθηκα σε ενα 'ονοματι' Ρειτιαι απο Εγητορα ιμοι και λευθεροβ(ι)oς.

Roughly translated it says 'I was given to one 'named' Reitiai by Egetora (mine) and freeborn.'

This statement refers to a servant who was given as a by her 'master' Egetora to one named Reitiai. I cannot confirm the Latin word SANANTI not found in the Venetic text, it appears to be unrelated to the rest of the text. If the Venetic precedes the Latin which is likely then the Latin is incorrect.


I also studied ancient greek in high school, but, honestly speaking, this seems to me that you have brought a comparison which, although has some points of convergence, it seems some forced in some points; first, it must be said first that the Venetic alphabet was not of Greek origin, but similar to the Etruscan (Venetic take so much from Etruscan: alphabet, fight tecnic, art ecc..) , and secondly it would not be very rational connection between the Venetics and the Greeks, also because there is no news of Hellenic colonies who prosper for centuries on the Venetian lagoon to become as powerful as those of Italy southern (remember that the various colonies, such as Taranto, Crotone, Reggio, Syracuse etc ... held fixed contacts with the homeland).

In my opinion, if the Venetians were of Greek origin today we had a good literature on the subject.

Dorianfinder
02-09-11, 19:12
I also studied ancient greek in high school, but, honestly speaking, this seems to me that you have brought a comparison which, although has some points of convergence, it seems some forced in some points; first, it must be said first that the Venetic alphabet was not of Greek origin, but similar to the Etruscan (Venetic take so much from Etruscan: alphabet, fight tecnic, art ecc..) , and secondly it would not be very rational connection between the Venetics and the Greeks, also because there is no news of Hellenic colonies who prosper for centuries on the Venetian lagoon to become as powerful as those of Italy southern (remember that the various colonies, such as Taranto, Crotone, Reggio, Syracuse etc ... held fixed contacts with the homeland).

In my opinion, if the Venetians were of Greek origin today we had a good literature on the subject.

There is a misunderstanding, Veneti are not of Greek origin, where did you see that? I have stated a number of times that the Veneti were of mixed origins from the Adriatic coast with influences from the broader region. My hypothesis is that Venetic was influenced by Greek like it was influenced by many languages. To assume a single origin is baseless in my opinion. Latin and Venetic are not as close as Greek is to Venetic. The Latin alphabet was used to write Venetic as the region was firmly within the Western sphere. The Byzantine administration in Italy wrote in Latin. This was official use while the people spoke their demotic.

Etrusco-romano
02-09-11, 19:23
There is a misunderstanding, Veneti are not of Greek origin, where did you see that? I have stated a number of times that the Veneti were of mixed origins from the Adriatic coast with influences from the broader region. My hypothesis is that Venetic was influenced by Greek like it was influenced by many languages. To assume a single origin is baseless in my opinion. Latin and Venetic are not as close as Greek is to Venetic. The Latin alphabet was used to write Venetic as the region was firmly within the Western sphere. The Byzantine administration in Italy wrote in Latin. This was official use while the people spoke their demotic.

Yes, i misunderstood. Sure that the Venetic are influenced by other culture, but, how i know the issue, having been discarded the Anatolian and Illyrian hypothesis by the experts, remains the most likely solution to belong to a branch of the Latin Falisci, perhaps with Illyrian influences, but may be they are wrong.

Dorianfinder
02-09-11, 19:50
Yes, i misunderstood. Sure that the Venetic are influenced by other culture, but, how i know the issue, having been discarded the Anatolian and Illyrian hypothesis by the experts, remains the most likely solution to belong to a branch of the Latin Falisci, perhaps with Illyrian influences, but may be they are wrong.

I would have to say that the likelihood of the Latin Falisci being the origin of the Veneti is slim to none from the archeological evidence in the Veneto region. The reason why all these theories have been debunked is because the Veneti were not a single homogeneous community. Their adaptability and survivability is a testament to this!

Taranis
02-09-11, 22:35
Here is a connection which is not exactly related, but I would like to ask anyways: is Istria connected in any way with the Greek (and presumably originally Dacian/Thracian) name for the Danube, "Istros"?

zanipolo
02-09-11, 22:37
You shouldn't ask where I'm heading you should be looking to find the facts!



You contradict yourself by stating there is no question regarding the Venetian language and then give clear evidence that it is made up of various Med. linguistic influences besides the one you claim. So your evidence refutes your own Gallic-Ligurian hypothesis, try again. Besides the Venetians and Genoans have been arche-enemies since time-immemorial, why would you make such a claim, I don't suppose you are a libro d'oro addict who claims decent from the Lombard and French houses.

The word for table-fork is Greek as it was introduced to common table etiquette following its use by a Byzantine lady during her travels to the courts of Europe around the 15th century. Before this there had been a picking utensil unlike the table fork or 'piron'.



Modern Venetian spoken in the heart of the Veneto region today is viewed as an Italian dialect. The difference between Italian and Venetian lies in these words you mention that are to be found throughout the Med. So modern Venetian is not a separate language as you assert, but a dialect or Italian with differences reflecting the mix of peoples that made up the Venetian populace.:bored:

Concerning the Veneti, research does not confirm your hypothesis about Gallo-Ligurians.
Archeological excavations currently underway in the Veneto at sites such as Este (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este,_Italy), Padua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padua), Oderzo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oderzo), Adria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adria), Vicenza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicenza), Verona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verona) and Altinum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altinum) all indicate the influence of the Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) in the Adriatic and their very strong links to the ancient Veneti. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti

The Illyrian hypothesis is popular but as yet no hard evidence exists. The Illyrian language, or what has been proposed as such is in fact a mangle of derived placenames and personal names that reflect everything from Thracian, Greek, Albanian, to Italian. Again, confirming my hypothesis that they were most likely a creole community based along the east-coast of the Adriatic down to the North West Balkans.

Firstly, the term language and dailect is the same today in meaning, except a language has a government. The is no world body that can dictate to any nation what is a dialect. example...montergrain was a dialect until they became a nation, overnight they have a language.

2. the italian "dialects" are far older than the italian language and so logically these "dialects" are a dialect of latin - called vulgar latin.

3. Dante, the creator of the italian language wrote a book about why he choose and did not choose certain part of these "dialect" to create the italain language. Again , Logically, Italian came AFTER these dialects.

4. The Italian created by Dante was solely for the purpose of merchant and artistic trade within Itlay, the nobility still spoke Latin . itlain belonged to no community and it did not rise and evolve like other languages in the world. Even when Itlay formed in 1861, there was only 600000 people out of 25 million that spoke and understood Italian. Less than 3% even after 600years.

5. Italian was based on the central/southern tuscan area of Siena and not of florence or lucca or pisa as these still speak there own languages. Listen to a florentine try to say the c letter, its amusing that they cannot.

As for the Veneti , I have already explained to you the scenario. They came from istria of illyrian stock, they pushed the mainland people Eugenai into the low alps and settled in the plains of the Veneto. These "illyrian" veneti never lost istria and never entered into the alps. Although there language of Venetic did. After fleeing the mainland in 462 and creating the city of Venice, they did not retake any veneto mainland areas until 1380.
These illyrian veneti language must be initally a illyric language which adapted the gallic-ligurian language on the mainland and evolved from there.
The carni ( east of veneto, the Taurisci in western slovenia where gallic-ligurian people. It makes logical sense that the modern Venetian language came as a result from this. An ancient gallic language stretching from Giron to trieste.

I agree all languages/dialects accept words from other languages to fill the void they have in their language. This is still being applied today.

So, to conclude, these original venetians would be originally of illyrian stock and created venice. The mainland veneti including the alpine ones would have become veneti after the roams named the area venetia. they would have been like most of northern italy a gallic-ligurian people.
Even their dna reflects this , R1b, I2a1 which is western europe, R1a germanic alpine people, g2a raeti people, J1 greek/phoenician people and E


My interest now is in the Venedi who seem to be a swedish people who firstly lived in mecklenburg from 320BC and migrated to the vistula-memel area. Some say the prussians where originally part, venedi, gothic and finnic in origin.
maciano latest map indicates only the finnic part - interesting

Etrusco-romano
03-09-11, 01:24
Firstly, the term language and dailect is the same today in meaning, except a language has a government. The is no world body that can dictate to any nation what is a dialect. example...montergrain was a dialect until they became a nation, overnight they have a language.

2. the italian "dialects" are far older than the italian language and so logically these "dialects" are a dialect of latin - called vulgar latin.

3. Dante, the creator of the italian language wrote a book about why he choose and did not choose certain part of these "dialect" to create the italain language. Again , Logically, Italian came AFTER these dialects.

4. The Italian created by Dante was solely for the purpose of merchant and artistic trade within Itlay, the nobility still spoke Latin . itlain belonged to no community and it did not rise and evolve like other languages in the world. Even when Itlay formed in 1861, there was only 600000 people out of 25 million that spoke and understood Italian. Less than 3% even after 600years.

5. Italian was based on the central/southern tuscan area of Siena and not of florence or lucca or pisa as these still speak there own languages. Listen to a florentine try to say the c letter, its amusing that they cannot.

As for the Veneti , I have already explained to you the scenario. They came from istria of illyrian stock, they pushed the mainland people Eugenai into the low alps and settled in the plains of the Veneto. These "illyrian" veneti never lost istria and never entered into the alps. Although there language of Venetic did. After fleeing the mainland in 462 and creating the city of Venice, they did not retake any veneto mainland areas until 1380.
These illyrian veneti language must be initally a illyric language which adapted the gallic-ligurian language on the mainland and evolved from there.
The carni ( east of veneto, the Taurisci in western slovenia where gallic-ligurian people. It makes logical sense that the modern Venetian language came as a result from this. An ancient gallic language stretching from Giron to trieste.

I agree all languages/dialects accept words from other languages to fill the void they have in their language. This is still being applied today.

So, to conclude, these original venetians would be originally of illyrian stock and created venice. The mainland veneti including the alpine ones would have become veneti after the roams named the area venetia. they would have been like most of northern italy a gallic-ligurian people.
Even their dna reflects this , R1b, I2a1 which is western europe, R1a germanic alpine people, g2a raeti people, J1 greek/phoenician people and E


My interest now is in the Venedi who seem to be a swedish people who firstly lived in mecklenburg from 320BC and migrated to the vistula-memel area. Some say the prussians where originally part, venedi, gothic and finnic in origin.
maciano latest map indicates only the finnic part - interesting


According to the "Anthropological Society of Paris", and various Italian schools of anthropology, traces of "Germanic people" in Veneto there are not many, Indeed, very few; The Friuli, given the Italian region hardest hit by the Longobard rule, does not reach 8% of the population who have typical nordic caratteristic, and so i think it's absourd to credited to the current Venetians Germanic origin.

zanipolo
03-09-11, 03:55
@etrusco-romano

I do not know what you mean about german, maybe you are confused when i mentioned venedi .
venedi are from the baltic area and some say they are slavs, some say goth or baltic or finnic but I have found they first appeared in Mecklenburg of swedish origin, with the heruli and vandals in the year 320 BC

The friuliani are a gallic linguistic people , they where the CARNI Tribe in ancient times, they where in northeast italy and western slovenia. How else is their language associated with the old southern french language.

The only german in the veneto was the german merchants which stayed 600 years, the austrians from 1820 to 1870, the teutonic knights had their head quarters in Venice before moving to prussia. The ostrogoths which stayed 200 years and influenced the architure called Venetian-gothic.

The other veneti was the gallic veneti which Caesar destroyed from brittany france.

If you can tell me who the Eugenai tribe where in the plains of Veneto, then I will be surprised if they are not Gallic. The 3 tribes of the Eugenai are the Stoeni, camuni and triumpili.

which is the nordic haplogroup in Veneto ?

zanipolo
03-09-11, 03:57
@etrusco-romano

I do not know what you mean about german, maybe you are confused when i mentioned venedi .
venedi are from the baltic area and some say they are slavs, some say goth or baltic or finnic but I have found they first appeared in Mecklenburg of swedish origin, with the heruli and vandals in the year 320 BC

The friuliani are a gallic linguistic people , they where the CARNI Tribe in ancient times, they where in northeast italy and western slovenia. How else is their language associated with the old southern french language.

The only german in the veneto was the german merchants which stayed 600 years, the austrians from 1820 to 1870, the teutonic knights had their head quarters in Venice before moving to prussia. The ostrogoths which stayed 200 years and influenced the architure called Venetian-gothic.

The other veneti was the gallic veneti which Caesar destroyed from brittany france.

If you can tell me who the Eugenai tribe where in the plains of Veneto, then I will be surprised if they are not Gallic. The 3 tribes of the Eugenai are the Stoeni, camuni and triumpili.

which is the nordic haplogroup in Veneto ?

zanipolo
03-09-11, 04:05
@etrusco-romano

I do not know what you mean about german, maybe you are confused when i mentioned venedi .
venedi are from the baltic area and some say they are slavs, some say goth or baltic or finnic but I have found they first appeared in Mecklenburg of swedish origin, with the heruli and vandals in the year 320 BC

The friuliani are a gallic linguistic people , they where the CARNI Tribe in ancient times, they where in northeast italy and western slovenia. How else is their language associated with the old southern french language.

The only german in the veneto was the german merchants which stayed 600 years, the austrians from 1820 to 1870, the teutonic knights had their head quarters in Venice before moving to prussia. The ostrogoths which stayed 200 years and influenced the architure called Venetian-gothic.

The other veneti was the gallic veneti which Caesar destroyed from brittany france.

If you can tell me who the Eugenai tribe where in the plains of Veneto, then I will be surprised if they are not Gallic. The 3 tribes of the Eugenai are the Stoeni, camuni and triumpili.

which is the nordic haplogroup in Veneto ?

Dorianfinder
03-09-11, 10:59
@etrusco-romano

I do not know what you mean about german, maybe you are confused when i mentioned venedi .
venedi are from the baltic area and some say they are slavs, some say goth or baltic or finnic but I have found they first appeared in Mecklenburg of swedish origin, with the heruli and vandals in the year 320 BC

The friuliani are a gallic linguistic people , they where the CARNI Tribe in ancient times, they where in northeast italy and western slovenia. How else is their language associated with the old southern french language.

The only german in the veneto was the german merchants which stayed 600 years, the austrians from 1820 to 1870, the teutonic knights had their head quarters in Venice before moving to prussia. The ostrogoths which stayed 200 years and influenced the architure called Venetian-gothic.

The other veneti was the gallic veneti which Caesar destroyed from brittany france.

If you can tell me who the Eugenai tribe where in the plains of Veneto, then I will be surprised if they are not Gallic. The 3 tribes of the Eugenai are the Stoeni, camuni and triumpili.

which is the nordic haplogroup in Veneto ?

@ zanipolo

The Raeti people included:
- Euganei from the Verona area
- Stoeni from the Valli Giudicarie
- Camuni from the Val Camonica

Their settlements correspond with Raetian insciptions from the early 6th century BC. found across the Austrian Tyrol, Trentino-Alto Adige and western Lombardy area (early 6th cent.BC). The most important sources on the Raeti such as Pliny the Elder and Livy unanimously agree that they were of Etruscan origins who had taken shelter in the mountains with the arrival of the Celts.

I still think you are a revisionist ...:smile:

Etrusco-romano
03-09-11, 12:51
@etrusco-romano

I do not know what you mean about german, maybe you are confused when i mentioned venedi .
venedi are from the baltic area and some say they are slavs, some say goth or baltic or finnic but I have found they first appeared in Mecklenburg of swedish origin, with the heruli and vandals in the year 320 BC

The friuliani are a gallic linguistic people , they where the CARNI Tribe in ancient times, they where in northeast italy and western slovenia. How else is their language associated with the old southern french language.

The only german in the veneto was the german merchants which stayed 600 years, the austrians from 1820 to 1870, the teutonic knights had their head quarters in Venice before moving to prussia. The ostrogoths which stayed 200 years and influenced the architure called Venetian-gothic.

The other veneti was the gallic veneti which Caesar destroyed from brittany france.

If you can tell me who the Eugenai tribe where in the plains of Veneto, then I will be surprised if they are not Gallic. The 3 tribes of the Eugenai are the Stoeni, camuni and triumpili.

which is the nordic haplogroup in Veneto ?

Yes i wrong, i confuse "Veneti" with "Venedi". But i want tell to you that de actualy Friulan peoples come from Illiric population with a good percentage of romans settlers and a little percentage of germans people; it was a research conduct was discovered by Mario Cappieri, geneticist and historian of the Anthropological Society of Paris. There is he's book on the google, if i find the link i will send to you.

stewartm0205
04-09-11, 09:53
Before the Old Kingdom Egypt had established trade routes to supply it with important commodities like: tin, amber, cedar, etc. The priests of Osiris were responsible for maintaining the trade routes and the trading outputs. This they did for thousands of years. Veneti comes from Wenet. Wenet comes from Wennefer which is another name for Osiris.

Sile
04-09-11, 10:50
What you say is only a "rosetta stone" fable and dealt only with the veneti from Brittany , as it they migrated from Michael's mound near penanze England and went to brittany to form the Veneti. Byronic celt is what they spoke , if I recall correctly.

Although the adriatic veneti have 2 columns in the piazzetta, one has the winged lion of Saint Mark and the other has Saint Theodore standing on a crocidile.
The crocidile represent Egypt. it symbolically means, the power of the veneti over the Pharohs of Egypt.

make of it what you want - I doubt it

Sile
04-09-11, 10:56
Revionist !?

The old saying is
History is written only by the winners and what is written is only 50% true

Sile
05-09-11, 10:19
Yes i wrong, i confuse "Veneti" with "Venedi". But i want tell to you that de actualy Friulan peoples come from Illiric population with a good percentage of romans settlers and a little percentage of germans people; it was a research conduct was discovered by Mario Cappieri, geneticist and historian of the Anthropological Society of Paris. There is he's book on the google, if i find the link i will send to you.

Is this the article
http://www.persee.fr/web/revues/home/prescript/article/bmsap_0037-8984_1977_num_4_3_1877

All I know is that the friuli area from the river livenza to the eastern alps a unknown tribe, the alps to the adriatic was the raeti people. about 550 BC the carni came form the lower alps and controlled the friuli area. They then expanded into western slovenis to be next to the Taurisci/norici.

If what you say is true and the friuli are illyrian, then what part did they Venetic language play since Friuli language has a gallic/raetian foundation

MOESAN
13-11-11, 15:21
HI !
just a detail in this thread:
Veneti of present Brittany was defeated by Romans, not destroyed: archelology proves it - but their navy was destroyed and so a lot of their nobility, maybe. someones think they was a mix of different Celts and Mesolithic and megalithic people (good sailors). West Armoric was little influenced and little colonized by the neolithic people, danubian or cardial - the present day DNA of the population seams confirm this very light weight of Near-Eastern HG's (for the Y).

MOESAN
13-11-11, 15:48
Sclaveni Venedi Antes
your map
This map is troubling:
the South area are the Carpathians, where we find today a lot of Y-I2a2 L423 and a lot of 'dinaric' phenotypes in the population. We can find also some Y-I2b - The area as a whole contains a significant number of Y-I2a2 and it seam to my these 2 Y-HG's played a big role in the development of metallurgy in Europe, after have been at the crossroads of Agriculture between Southeastern Europe and Ukraina (see Cucuteni-Triploje cultures). Like if the R1a steppes tribes have been 'educated' by this peoples well situated geographically - In Western Europe, Bohem (was the center of Unetice that had bell Beakers-Campaniform connexions) presents also I2a2 + I2b AS some cultural CHalco-Bronze places (I'm not sure of the precise dates) in Russia on the way to Siberia where we find a lot of Y-R1a with some I2a2 and AI2b too... to say: these people (not pure surely but with a big proportion of Y-I2a2 and others I2) played IN PERIODS NOT TO FAR ONE FROM THE OTHER a big roel too in Central-Western Indo-European Europe:
first I-E "teachers" or just an elite of traders-warriors-smithes"???
just to think about
have a good day

Sile
14-11-11, 08:23
HI !
just a detail in this thread:
Veneti of present Brittany was defeated by Romans, not destroyed: archelology proves it - but their navy was destroyed and so a lot of their nobility, maybe. someones think they was a mix of different Celts and Mesolithic and megalithic people (good sailors). West Armoric was little influenced and little colonized by the neolithic people, danubian or cardial - the present day DNA of the population seams confirm this very light weight of Near-Eastern HG's (for the Y).


I recently read that the phoenicians of southern spain sailed to Vannes ( brittany veneti) and sought their tin in exchange for goods. The veneti got the tin from Cornwall and Wales.

On another note some mix up the Veneli of caux normandy with these veneti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unelli
Some scholars say that these Unelli ( veneli) where originally from South west finland

In regards to the their HG, it known that the Veneti have L-21 and that the Veneti after caesar escaped to Scotland and became the Veniconnes.
The Veneli graves in Caux have some G2a3b1

Sile
14-11-11, 08:29
Sclaveni Venedi Antes
your map
This map is troubling:
the South area are the Carpathians, where we find today a lot of Y-I2a2 L423 and a lot of 'dinaric' phenotypes in the population. We can find also some Y-I2b - The area as a whole contains a significant number of Y-I2a2 and it seam to my these 2 Y-HG's played a big role in the development of metallurgy in Europe, after have been at the crossroads of Agriculture between Southeastern Europe and Ukraina (see Cucuteni-Triploje cultures). Like if the R1a steppes tribes have been 'educated' by this peoples well situated geographically - In Western Europe, Bohem (was the center of Unetice that had bell Beakers-Campaniform connexions) presents also I2a2 + I2b AS some cultural CHalco-Bronze places (I'm not sure of the precise dates) in Russia on the way to Siberia where we find a lot of Y-R1a with some I2a2 and AI2b too... to say: these people (not pure surely but with a big proportion of Y-I2a2 and others I2) played IN PERIODS NOT TO FAR ONE FROM THE OTHER a big roel too in Central-Western Indo-European Europe:
first I-E "teachers" or just an elite of traders-warriors-smithes"???
just to think about
have a good day


which map do you refer to.
The Sclaveni Venedi Antes and per an attached article in this forum, where in reality the Sclaveni Venethi Antes and these venethi did not exist as it was a title given to a Vandal "king" after the destruction of the Antes and Sclaveni.
From what I recently read, the venedi and vandal came across together from sweden and settled in Mecklenburg area ( first known date is 375BC, the venedi moved eastward over time to the vistula coast and where destroyed by the goths around 200AD.
basically Jordanes is one historian to avoid as he grapped all of cappidorous hard work and in 3 days printed his own type of history from pannonia

MOESAN
20-11-11, 21:06
I recently read that the phoenicians of southern spain sailed to Vannes ( brittany veneti) and sought their tin in exchange for goods. The veneti got the tin from Cornwall and Wales.

On another note some mix up the Veneli of caux normandy with these veneti
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unelli
Some scholars say that these Unelli ( veneli) where originally from South west finland

In regards to the their HG, it known that the Veneti have L-21 and that the Veneti after caesar escaped to Scotland and became the Veniconnes.
The Veneli graves in Caux have some G2a3b1

some questions:
is it possible that Unelli could be Veneli with a so big phonetic evolution in a so short time in the same country or could have their name pronounced in a so different ways on the same time? [we] is not [U], and [ll] is not (was not) [l]
that Veneti (from Brittany) was Y-R-L21 is a very possible assumption but are we sure of that?

the whole Veneti escaped to Scotland:? hard to believe, there was no vacuum in their territory after the roman victory and numerous tribes don't move totally so easy -
for Normandy, I believe that the sample is not to big (as almost everytime in "jacobine" anti-population-genetics France - but some studies pointed out that during and after Celtic gaulish time, the Western part of Normandy showed an heavy weight of metrically "danubian-mediterranean" types and also others "mediterranean" types (somewhat different as some buryings (dolmens) of last Neolithic times showed metrical means closer to the ones of Cardial cultures of Languedoc) - I've an hypothesis: Cardial: more often Y-G2 + I2a1a - Danubian Neolithic: Y-G2 too but also E1b-V13 and J2b - to say that some G2 is not surprising in Normandy (North of France shows a lot today too) the 2 with some J2 - the Celts was a ruling elite there - the metrics of Normandy changed serioulsy only about the VIII° or IX° century according to the metric studies - East of the Seine river it seams it was different -

zanipolo
21-11-11, 07:21
some questions:
is it possible that Unelli could be Veneli with a so big phonetic evolution in a so short time in the same country or could have their name pronounced in a so different ways on the same time? [we] is not [U], and [ll] is not (was not) [l]
that Veneti (from Brittany) was Y-R-L21 is a very possible assumption but are we sure of that?

the whole Veneti escaped to Scotland:? hard to believe, there was no vacuum in their territory after the roman victory and numerous tribes don't move totally so easy -
for Normandy, I believe that the sample is not to big (as almost everytime in "jacobine" anti-population-genetics France - but some studies pointed out that during and after Celtic gaulish time, the Western part of Normandy showed an heavy weight of metrically "danubian-mediterranean" types and also others "mediterranean" types (somewhat different as some buryings (dolmens) of last Neolithic times showed metrical means closer to the ones of Cardial cultures of Languedoc) - I've an hypothesis: Cardial: more often Y-G2 + I2a1a - Danubian Neolithic: Y-G2 too but also E1b-V13 and J2b - to say that some G2 is not surprising in Normandy (North of France shows a lot today too) the 2 with some J2 - the Celts was a ruling elite there - the metrics of Normandy changed serioulsy only about the VIII° or IX° century according to the metric studies - East of the Seine river it seams it was different -

The Unelli are the Veneli as per the link. Story is that they arrived in Caux around 4000BC as the Uenne(e) a finnish people who spoke a cyro-britonic language and later changed to a brito-Belgic language.
U can become V , as in ancient times many languages replaced vowels or placed an extra letter in front of tribes names.
The Baltic Venedi as per tacticus notes, also spoke a britonic language similar to Welsh
These Venedi where letts ( finland originally) and noted as below....read some pages before and after
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=-NEtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA450&dq=venedi+letts&hl=en&ei=MN_JTpaUGoiJmQWxp-UM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=venedi letts&f=false
These Venedi became the Prussians



on Venicones
the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the
possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which
would be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people)
and Con (of the hounds). According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as Verturiones (Fortriu).
At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen
, a branch of Romanised Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini) kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory is
given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend
it."
"One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to
Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and
Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and
northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion."


Gwyn means white and so to does Ven

zanipolo
23-11-11, 07:12
edit on post #113
Although Tacticus says the venedi spoke a britonic language like welsh, I found other modern writers saying they spoke Proto-Baltic which is different to proto-slavic and balto-slavic ( I do not know which order in time these languages appeared. Anyway below is the dialects and as previous post, the Venedi must have become the Prussians as Proto-baltic is nearly exactly the same as old-prussian.

Table 2. Baltic Dialects [1]




*Proto Baltic
Old Prussian
Old Lithuanian
Sudovian (Yotvingian)
Lithuanian
Lettish
Zaseciai Lithuanian


1
ainas
ains
wienas
ainas
víenas
viêns
íena


2
dvai
dwai
du
dvai

divi



3
trys
tris, trys
trys
trîs
trỹs
trîs
trĩs


4
keturi
kettwirts
keturi
keturei
keturì
četri
ķeturì


5
penke
piēncts
?
penkei
penkì
pìeci
penkì


6
šeš
uschts
uschios
ushai
šešì
seši
šešì


7
septin
*septints
?
septinei
septynì
septii
ŝeptìi


8
aštō
*astōnts
?
astônei
aštuonì
astuôni
aštúoi


9
nevin[tis]
nēwints
?
nevinei
devynì
devii
deíi


10
dešim[tis]
dessimpts
deschimtis
desimtis
dẽšimt
desmit[s]
dŝimt





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drużno


The diversity of basic terminology existed within "Proto"-Baltic" illustrates the antiquity of the West / East Baltic vocabulary inherited from the late Sredny Stog horizon (3500-3350 BCE) into the "Europeanized IE " Corded Ware Middle Dnieper culture horizon that influenced the evolution of divergent dialects by cultural contacts. The formative influence of poly-ethnic substratum populations on the various early Baltic-type dialects.
Certain innovations (i.e., declension) that occurred in the Central Eastern dialects are not reflected in the Peripheral Western Baltic dialects (i.e., canonical set of 4 core declensional cases, re: neighboring Gothic) . Each area also had different mixtures of substratum populations involved in their ethnogenic formations, and later neighboring influences. The Peripheral West Baltic dialects exhibit an archaic declension which gives one a unique window into both Baltics , and the "Proto"-Indo-European dialects, and their evolution. The current spoken Central East Baltic dialects are more evolved, expressive, and elegant. Bi-lingual West / East Baltic speakers adopted East Baltic rather quickly.
"The traditional academic construct of a seven case declensional system for early Proto Indo-European
is as synthetic as it is theoretically convenient." ( Jeannette DeBusk Cox (http://www.suduva.com/virdainas/seabreeze_1.jpg) ) The core four cases of West-Baltic (Prussian, Sudovian, & Galindian) declension exhibit archaic features uniting West Baltic with Germanic and Greek. Only nominative, genitive, dative and accusative forms have constant intercrossing functions in various Indo-European languages, while forms used for the instrumental or locative cases (traditionally declared to be "Common Indo-European"), have related functions: e.g. the IE *"-ois" may occur in the instrumental case in one language and in the locative case in other ones, or *"-ō" / (apophonically) "-ē " occurs as "-āt" in the Indo-Iranian ablative and as "-it" in the Hittite instrumental.

MOESAN
23-11-11, 15:05
The Unelli are the Veneli as per the link. Story is that they arrived in Caux around 4000BC as the Uenne(e) a finnish people who spoke a cyro-britonic language and later changed to a brito-Belgic language.
U can become V , as in ancient times many languages replaced vowels or placed an extra letter in front of tribes names.
The Baltic Venedi as per tacticus notes, also spoke a britonic language similar to Welsh
These Venedi where letts ( finland originally) and noted as below....read some pages before and after
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=-NEtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA450&dq=venedi+letts&hl=en&ei=MN_JTpaUGoiJmQWxp-UM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=venedi letts&f=false (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=-NEtAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA450&dq=venedi+letts&hl=en&ei=MN_JTpaUGoiJmQWxp-UM&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=venedi%20letts&f=false)
These Venedi became the Prussians



on Venicones
the name Venicones in particular interesting because of the
possibility that -cones somehow referred to Cu or hounds in Irish - which
would be Con in the genitive form found in a construction like feni (people)
and Con (of the hounds). According to the author, the territory of the Venicones later was known as Verturiones (Fortriu).
At the request of local Roman government, possibly by Coel Hen
, a branch of Romanised Venicones (Veneti) move from Manau in the northern Gododdin (Votadini) kingdom, to the north and west coast of what is now Wales. The territory is
given to them on the condition they expel the Irish (Scotti) and defend
it."
"One can envision a possible migration of Veneti from the Vistula by sea to
Armorica. Then a flight of survivors from Armorica to Fife in Scotland and
Donnegal in Ireland. Then Romanised Veneti of Fife move into western and
northern Wales and found the kingdoms of Gwynedd and Ceredigion."


Gwyn means white and so to does Ven


1- I know that 'v'+vowell was phonetic /w/ in a lot of previous formes of languages, that 'w' could go to 'u' or 'o': I was just wondering if the 2 names: Veneli and Unelli was of the same time - (but it's true the pronounciation can change with the reporting done by other peoples (as Greeks that lost their old I-E 'w-' for 'o-')
2- What I heard in serious works was that Venedi-Wendi was speaking an old form of Baltic language and not a slavic or celtoc one - the ancient historians of Antiquity made a lot of mistakes when descriving barbarian peoples an languages - Some old scholars thought Veneti of Brittany, of Italy and Poland had their names formed on an old common I-E root and that this old connexion didn't prove a recent filiation between them -
for veneti-Wendi they suppose sometimes a connection with Illyrian people as for od Lusacians, even if the proofs here was very very tiny (for Lusacians Urnfields I prefer an Ombrian-Osco-Italic influence but who knows?...)
3- I have no comfidence in the "forged common origins" of peoples based only on a syllabe shared by them in their names: old roots of I-E languages was very close one together at the beginning and it' svery too easy to make good bargain myths -
4- for now I don' believe in a presence of armorican Veneti in Britain after the Roman war (fly): if they had colonies there, these ones was older, before Rome incursions in the celtic lands - (I red they have some in Ireland)
5- "white" was 'vindo' in previous celtic before come to 'gwyn(n)', 'gwenn', 'fionn' -
and Gwynedd CAN NOT be explained by Venet- , it would be 'Gwyned' - and think 'gwyn-n' (/nn/ << /nd/)
6- OK for 'con-' withthe meaning of 'Hound', 'dog'

zanipolo
24-11-11, 08:25
1- I know that 'v'+vowell was phonetic /w/ in a lot of previous formes of languages, that 'w' could go to 'u' or 'o': I was just wondering if the 2 names: Veneli and Unelli was of the same time - (but it's true the pronounciation can change with the reporting done by other peoples (as Greeks that lost their old I-E 'w-' for 'o-')
2- What I heard in serious works was that Venedi-Wendi was speaking an old form of Baltic language and not a slavic or celtoc one - the ancient historians of Antiquity made a lot of mistakes when descriving barbarian peoples an languages - Some old scholars thought Veneti of Brittany, of Italy and Poland had their names formed on an old common I-E root and that this old connexion didn't prove a recent filiation between them -
for veneti-Wendi they suppose sometimes a connection with Illyrian people as for od Lusacians, even if the proofs here was very very tiny (for Lusacians Urnfields I prefer an Ombrian-Osco-Italic influence but who knows?...)
3- I have no comfidence in the "forged common origins" of peoples based only on a syllabe shared by them in their names: old roots of I-E languages was very close one together at the beginning and it' svery too easy to make good bargain myths -
4- for now I don' believe in a presence of armorican Veneti in Britain after the Roman war (fly): if they had colonies there, these ones was older, before Rome incursions in the celtic lands - (I red they have some in Ireland)
5- "white" was 'vindo' in previous celtic before come to 'gwyn(n)', 'gwenn', 'fionn' -
and Gwynedd CAN NOT be explained by Venet- , it would be 'Gwyned' - and think 'gwyn-n' (/nn/ << /nd/)
6- OK for 'con-' withthe meaning of 'Hound', 'dog'

We basically agree.

My theory is that the Romans first saw the Adriatic Veneti a tribe from Illyrian Istria, who came from the sea and tookover the plains of the Veneto.
The Roman word for the Sea as its colour of blue-green is VENETUS
Latin verb 'venire' (to come).A connection with the Latin word
venetus, meaning 'sea-blue'.
They then named tribes who where near the sea that did not fit the local people in customs or languages Veneti/venedi, Like the balts of Venedi in old prussia, the armorica veneti of breton, who seem to be a welsh people.

Yetos
24-11-11, 10:14
We basically agree.

My theory is that the Romans first saw the Adriatic Veneti a tribe from Illyrian Istria, who came from the sea and tookover the plains of the Veneto.
The Roman word for the Sea as its colour of blue-green is VENETUS
Latin verb 'venire' (to come).A connection with the Latin word
venetus, meaning 'sea-blue'.
They then named tribes who where near the sea that did not fit the local people in customs or languages Veneti/venedi, Like the balts of Venedi in old prussia, the armorica veneti of breton, who seem to be a welsh people.


SEA-BLUE
maybe correct,
or blue eyes or something blue for sure,
Κωνσταντινουπολις- Nova roma,
emperor Ιουστινιανος Iustinianus Augustus
Σταση του Νικα Nika riots
writer Προκοπιος Prokopius
πρασινοι & Βενετοι (prasinoi & Venetoi) Green and Blue
Veneto at least in Latin of Byzantines at 530 AD ment Blue
compare with Greek Κυανουν & γαληνο-γαλανο means was not from Greek part of Byzantine litterature, meaning it came from Romans,

remarkable is a name a girls name that exist in Pontic and minor Greeks, Bενετια Venetia, it means royal, comparing the legend of royal blue blood, then another connection of Blue exist to testify that,

zanipolo
10-12-11, 03:55
latest book and documents of the Veneti

Ancient Veneti European researches: Poland, Brittany, Veneto, Slovenija (http://www.facebook.com/groups/142934795768351/), pubblicato da Millo Bozzolan Traduzione da “Adieu to Brittany, (a transcription and translation of Venetic passages and toponyms).
Di Antony Ambrozic

http://img684.imageshack.us/img684/3813/venet.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/684/venet.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)


these are the discovered trade routes of the bronze age

zanipolo
03-05-12, 09:08
As per page 86 in link below ( map ) , another theory is that the veneti where one of the 4 tribes of the Urheimat culture and where "born" in Thuringia pre-germanic times

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=5aoId7nA4bsC&pg=PA89&lpg=PA89&dq=g.+labuda+venet&source=bl&ots=Z6jqZhutME&sig=opEK8xRF9XGbvD-9JkML84oT2qA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=Zh-iT6vFG8-UiQe6qu3PCA&ved=0CCIQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=venet&f=false

I have no opinion on this and base my knowledge on the latest archeolgy finds in the veneto dating from 1050BC ( link below)

http://ucl.academia.edu/ElisaPerego/Talks
more details and pictures on another site which must be downloaded

http://pia-journal.co.uk/article/view/pia.342/54

piero
19-07-12, 18:01
The amber trade linked Lusatian Culture and Adriatic Veneti for about 800 years. A long time, enough to share some cultural aspects. They say that the basic haplogroup for Lusatian Culture is R1a1a7, but unfortunately this haplogroup is not present in Italy. Do you know other subclades that are common in Poland and North-East Italy for Lusatian time (1300-500 b.C.)?

GloomyGonzales
19-07-12, 19:46
The amber trade linked Lusatian Culture and Adriatic Veneti for about 800 years. A long time, enough to share some cultural aspects. They say that the basic haplogroup for Lusatian Culture is R1a1a7, but unfortunately this haplogroup is not present in Italy. Do you know other subclades that are common in Poland and North-East Italy for Lusatian time (1300-500 b.C.)?


As far as I know for a while only R1a Z280+ clades were found in Italy. R1a Z280+ clades most likely originated somewhere on the North of Poland at least that's where we can fine the highest diversity of R1a Z280+ clades now.

zanipolo
20-07-12, 03:29
The amber trade linked Lusatian Culture and Adriatic Veneti for about 800 years. A long time, enough to share some cultural aspects. They say that the basic haplogroup for Lusatian Culture is R1a1a7, but unfortunately this haplogroup is not present in Italy. Do you know other subclades that are common in Poland and North-East Italy for Lusatian time (1300-500 b.C.)?

Veneti trade in the medieval times was different to trade in the ancient times. In the medieval, the veneti had its people outposted to constantinople, alexandtra, levant, flanders, southwest england, etc and they owned the ships and controlled the cargo and taxes. In the ancient times, I suspect that it was only a trade relay system in which the aestii ( some say estonians ) gave/sold their amber to the Venedi ( some say these are later baltic prussians), who sold it to east germanic tribes, who sold it to the veneti/illyrians on the danube who then brought it to venetic lands in veneto and they sold it to phoenicians.
As per E.Perago, she discovered both baltic and jutland amber in veneto - Amber can be pinpointed of where it was grown due to its differences.
The venetic amber which was not sold was used to keep evil spirits away from the users - 100% of all amber found in skeltons where only women and children.

The Dna IMO might have some similar markers but its only accidental,

Below link actually brackets veneti with both Norway and estonia and others...........you make up your mind

http://www2.gslt.hum.gu.se/~leifg/jh/Roewer+Croucher+al_on_Ystr+History_2005.pdf (http://www2.gslt.hum.gu.se/%7Eleifg/jh/Roewer+Croucher+al_on_Ystr+History_2005.pdf)


BTW, the veneti and norwegian are similar in cuisine in cooking, horse meat and bacala ( cod) from medieval recipes........and to this day, veneti get 70% of their cod from Norway. trivial fact.

zanipolo
20-07-12, 03:40
As far as I know for a while only R1a Z280+ clades were found in Italy. R1a Z280+ clades most likely originated somewhere on the North of Poland at least that's where we can fine the highest diversity of R1a Z280+ clades now.

In Semagnl site ...there is none in North east Italy

In Ftdna there are only 2, one in Friuli and the other in Veneto , with actually the surname of one in Veneto was the name of a doge of Venice ...Dona'

piero
25-07-12, 08:17
As far as I know for a while only R1a Z280+ clades were found in Italy. R1a Z280+ clades most likely originated somewhere on the North of Poland at least that's where we can fine the highest diversity of R1a Z280+ clades now.
Good info GloomyGonzales. When was born Z280+ subclade? How old is it? Do you have any map of its spread in Europe?

zanipolo
07-08-12, 10:31
Good info GloomyGonzales. When was born Z280+ subclade? How old is it? Do you have any map of its spread in Europe?

Numbers below are from 2010 studies, I have linked the main article before. Below is the percentages for North-East Italy. The regions of Veneto, Friuli and Trento

R1b1b2 (M269) = 41.3
G2a* = 11.9
R1a1* = 10.1
I2a1* (M423) = 9.4
I1* = 9.0
J2a1b* (M67) = 5.0
L1b (M317) = 4.5
T1 (M70) = 3.3
J2a* = 3.0
J2a1k (DYS445 = 6) = 3.0
E1a (M33) = 1.5
E1b1b1a2 (V13) = 1.5
E1b1b1c (M123) = 1.5
I2b1 (M223) = 1.5
J2a4b1 (M92) = 1.5

wolfswald
28-08-12, 19:14
Zanipolo,

would you mind posting the 2010 article for Italian DNA once again? I cannot find it.

Besides, there is one R1a-L1029 (downstream of M458) in the Lake Como area, the family name in question being documented there since 1100 AD on the Isola Comacina. Unfortunately, it is still unclear how it got there. The Veneti option is one of those I have considered, next to the Lombard and Ostrogoth migrations.

wolfswald

zanipolo
31-08-12, 13:23
Zanipolo,

would you mind posting the 2010 article for Italian DNA once again? I cannot find it.

Besides, there is one R1a-L1029 (downstream of M458) in the Lake Como area, the family name in question being documented there since 1100 AD on the Isola Comacina. Unfortunately, it is still unclear how it got there. The Veneti option is one of those I have considered, next to the Lombard and Ostrogoth migrations.

wolfswald

see below
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

and

http://tigen.tirolensis.info/wiki/Tyrolean_DNA_admixture_and_genetic_structure

see all links


you checking

Antonio de Serponte, abt. 1400, Varenna/Lombardy

piero
02-11-12, 21:49
MOESAN
Veneti of present Brittany was defeated by Romans, not destroyed: archelology proves it
Please, i'm looking for this archaeological evidence: my idea is that Venety from Brittany, after Caesar defeat, migrated to Scotland (Venicones). When Romans abandoned Great Britain the Venicones migrated to Wales with King Cunedda.

zanipolo
02-11-12, 23:02
MOESAN
Please, i'm looking for this archaeological evidence: my idea is that Venety from Brittany, after Caesar defeat, migrated to Scotland (Venicones). When Romans abandoned Great Britain the Venicones migrated to Wales with King Cunedda.

this is one article
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm

I find by searching " rootsweb venicones", sometimes more attachments are found this way for me...although the messages are sometimes bias


and you can also gather hidden articles by searching "venicones maps"
select the interesting one and behind it could be an article
http://marikavel.org/personnes/venicones/accueil.htm

MOESAN
03-11-12, 00:44
this is one article
http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesBritain/RomanVenicones01.htm

I find by searching " rootsweb venicones", sometimes more attachments are found this way for me...although the messages are sometimes bias


and you can also gather hidden articles by searching "venicones maps"
select the interesting one and behind it could be an article
http://marikavel.org/personnes/venicones/accueil.htm

Thanks for the links
I red the first digest and I found it was very unserious :
no knowledge of phonetical rules along chronology (confusion of W/Venet > W/Venetch! based on an assumption that W/Venic- could pronounced W/Venitch, that W/Ven- in W/Veneti is the same as Fionn, Gwyn, Gwenn = white, blond when we know 'these modern celtic words are born upon Wind-),
I agree Veneti could have some sets in Brittonia and Hibernia at some time,because they was the pole of Armorica sea trade and was very powerful at the Julius Caesar's time, but this position in Eastern Scotland (Pictland) seams to me very unprobable, the same for Northern Ireland -
I'll read the second link
nos vad deoc'h - nos dda i chi -

MOESAN
03-11-12, 00:46
we cannot rely on the only presence of a shared term in a tribe name to affirm a recent community of origin , or an identity for the tirbes which share it

piero
10-11-12, 16:38
Well MOESAN, I agree with:
we cannot rely on the only presence of a shared term in a tribe name to affirm a recent community of origin , or an identity for the tirbes which share it
But, please, answer to my question: Wich archaeological proves and evidence do you have about this?
Veneti of present Brittany was defeated by Romans, not destroyed: archelology proves it
One more question: If I go to Paris archaelogical museum, can I see some archaeological findings about Veneti of Brittany? I was in Vannes museum but there was very few!

MOESAN
11-11-12, 17:01
I can't answer you for the most:
a) archeological proofs: it is not me that affirms that but some historians and archeologists, without sharing more details with readers -
b) museums: I don't know for Paris, what I know is that the archeological remnants are as a rule found in places far go their previous gebuine presence place! paradoxe!!!

on the anthropological side, ex-Venetian territory showed not far ago yet some slight differences from other western regions of Brittany, on the direction of more local mesolithical traits (cromagnoid and ??? 'teviecoid type') - but it could be put on the account of more "british" islands Celts in other western places of Brittany, and repopulation of Veneti lands by other western pre-britton Armoirians... I'm sure of nothing even if I think it is rather a conserved local Venetic population that plays there...

to be sensible, I think the numbers of vainquished people and the 'all-to-nothing' concepts have to be considered with great defiance in History - Veneti of Aremorica was seamingly a numerous tribe or confederation of small tribes, and their inland territory would be very difficult to be emptied down of people or to be controlled by Roman Army in a short time - Roma destroyed their navy and the elites and sea-warriors, not all the population, for I think -

MOESAN
11-11-12, 17:02
sorry: "far from their previous genuine location place"

MOESAN
11-11-12, 18:50
from"Protohistoire de la Bretagne" (PR. GIOT /J. BRIARD / L. PAPE)
translation (free): "From this 56 BC war it resulted an indiscutable roman victory, but the Veneti did not fade out for that from the world map, only the elite prisoniers were killed and the other prisoniers captured during the battle were sold by auction."

the authors wrote that during the 52 BC revolt of Gaulish tribes, Julius Caesar mentionned among the Armorican ones: Coriosolites, Redones, Ambibarii, Caletes, Osismes, Lemovices and Unelles, without Veneti, but that this could have been omitted by Caesae because he wrote beofre he had destroyed ALL the Veneti, and could not going across his own words; by the way, Ceasar did not mention the Namnetes in this revolt, what is very curious too...

zanipolo
12-11-12, 19:24
from"Protohistoire de la Bretagne" (PR. GIOT /J. BRIARD / L. PAPE)
translation (free): "From this 56 BC war it resulted an indiscutable roman victory, but the Veneti did not fade out for that from the world map, only the elite prisoniers were killed and the other prisoniers captured during the battle were sold by auction."

the authors wrote that during the 52 BC revolt of Gaulish tribes, Julius Caesar mentionned among the Armorican ones: Coriosolites, Redones, Ambibarii, Caletes, Osismes, Lemovices and Unelles, without Veneti, but that this could have been omitted by Caesae because he wrote beofre he had destroyed ALL the Veneti, and could not going across his own words; by the way, Ceasar did not mention the Namnetes in this revolt, what is very curious too...

Its funny that caesar used V for U in his books ( writings) except on this occasion. Did he mean Ueneti .......a people from middle scandinavia.
Clearly he knew of adriatic veneti bcause they became roman citizens from 100BC. I really wonder if he refernced the adriatic and armorica veneti anywhere

MOESAN
13-11-12, 00:21
Its funny that caesar used V for U in his books ( writings) except on this occasion. Did he mean Ueneti .......a people from middle scandinavia.
Clearly he knew of adriatic veneti bcause they became roman citizens from 100BC. I really wonder if he refernced the adriatic and armorica veneti anywhere

V and U was the same letter in ancient latin, I think (the same confusion occurred for ancient I and J - only modern texts or translations made the distinction after between V and U - for more certitude ask some specialist (maybe Taranis or an other poster?)
I supposed learned people consider V + consonnants = /U/[oo] and V + vowels = /W/ --> /V/ -
&: I was not aware of a tribe named Veneti or Ueneti in Scandinavia - I only heard of one of this name on, or not far from, the Baltic southern shores, which cultural affiliation is discussed.
good night

wolfswald
15-02-13, 21:50
Zanipolo,

thank you for posting the links - apologies that I've seen this only now. I think I had seen the Battaglia article before, the other collection was new to me.



you checking

Antonio de Serponte, abt. 1400, Varenna/Lombardy

That is just the one I am doing research on; I'm responsible for the paper trail research in this case.

Talking of that: in January 2013, one forum post in the Biodiversity forum (which is currently down and still has severe technical problems) was written by someone who is L1029+ and suspects his origin might be (Northern) Italy, too. Unfortunately, I cannot remember his nickname. If anybody comes across this and knows who that was: I'll be happy about any info about how to contact him!

TIA
wolfswald

zanipolo
21-02-13, 23:36
As per 2012 study on pre-roman Italy and the latest on Italy and the southeast Balkans 2008 ( unless anyone else has latest data except the Friuli-Venezia-Giulia one, please share ).
I noted the yDna of northeast Italy ( friuli, veneto and trento ) of the pre -roman numbers and the modern numbers do not seem to vary that much, I was wondering if 2000 to 3000 years is great for any genetic change.

pre-roman (%)
E-V13 = 2.2
E-M215 = 2.2
E-M34 = 2.1 (semitic people)
G-P15 = 4.2
I-M423 = 21.3
I-M26 = 2.1
J-M172 = 10.7
L-M317 = 2.1
R-M420 = 12.8
R-M269 = 40.4


2008 tests (%)
E-M33 = 1.5
E-V13 = 1.5
E-M123 = 1.5
G2a* = 11.9
I1* = 9.0
I2a1* = 9.4
I-M223 = 1.5
J2a* = 3.0
J2a1k = 3.0
J-M92 = 1.5
L2-M317 = 4.5
R-M420 = 10.4
R-M269 = 41.8
T-L131 = 3.0
T-P77 = 0.3

piero
24-06-13, 07:39
As per 2012 study on pre-roman Italy and the latest on Italy and the southeast Balkans 2008 ( unless anyone else has latest data except the Friuli-Venezia-Giulia one, please share ).
I noted the yDna of northeast Italy ( friuli, veneto and trento ) of the pre -roman numbers and the modern numbers do not seem to vary that much, I was wondering if 2000 to 3000 years is great for any genetic change.

pre-roman (%)
E-V13 = 2.2
E-M215 = 2.2
E-M34 = 2.1 (semitic people)
G-P15 = 4.2
I-M423 = 21.3
I-M26 = 2.1
J-M172 = 10.7
L-M317 = 2.1
R-M420 = 12.8
R-M269 = 40.4


2008 tests (%)
E-M33 = 1.5
E-V13 = 1.5
E-M123 = 1.5
G2a* = 11.9
I1* = 9.0
I2a1* = 9.4
I-M223 = 1.5
J2a* = 3.0
J2a1k = 3.0
J-M92 = 1.5
L2-M317 = 4.5
R-M420 = 10.4
R-M269 = 41.8
T-L131 = 3.0
T-P77 = 0.3
Hi Zanipolo, this is very very interesting to me! Please, which is the scientific article or book from which you took the datas? Which is the source of this?

zanipolo
26-06-13, 09:18
Hi Zanipolo, this is very very interesting to me! Please, which is the scientific article or book from which you took the datas? Which is the source of this?

ciao piero, how is the new book coming?

I previously attached all articles. See previous messages by me.

On the matter of MtDna in Veneto, do you have any information. The last I have is this which is 10 years old

West Veneto
H - 42.1%
T - 26.3%
U - 13.2%
X - 7.9%
J - 5.3%
V - 2.6%
preV - 2.5%
HV- 0
I - 0

East Veneto
H - 40.0%
J -16.7%
T - 16.7%
I - 6.7%
V - 6.7%
U+K - 6.7%
HV - 3.3%

Combined
H - 41.1%
T - 22.0%
J - 10.3%
U - 5.9%
K - 5.9%
V - 4.4%
X - 4.4%
I - 2.9%
HV - 1.4%
preV - 1.4%

With Italy only registering 33% for H ( which includes Veneto ), if we take Veneto out, Italy will be approx. 30% which is 10% lower than the European average...........Italy could not have had H mtDna as early as the others

zanipolo
27-06-13, 09:08
@piero

IIRC you said in your old book that Veneti and Venedi where the same ( or you believed they where the same people) . the following might interest you

The amber trail which started around 2000BC was commenced by the Aestii tribe , through another branch of the aestian confederation tribe, called Venedi, through to Noricum, then into veneto and onto the trade hub called Este
similar - AEstii -Este
it was then given/sold to phoenicians in the Adriatic to be sold in the med.

I did come across an old Noricum alphabet and curiously the venetian alphabet has the exact same letters 100% although the Noricum one has more letters.

Which leads me to the 2006 , 60 pages article on the venetic language being Finnic....written by Paabo.

You can investigate this further as I am unaware on what articles you possess.

.................................

on Another matter, the istrians ( histri people ) are said to be Colchians who traveled up the danube river. Later these colchians from the black sea took some Jazyges ( minor sarmatian tribe ) to istria as well, The picene are said to be also colchians mixed with illyrians, part article below

picea, a pine tree, because it was perhaps full of such; but it seems as probably to have taken it's name from the Piki a people beyond Colchis, and subject to the Colchian kingdom; for the ancients agree that a colony from Colchis settled on the Ister, in the time of the Argonauts, and it is most likely that it was at its mouth.
For tho Apollonius Rhodius book IV, and Justin xxxii. 3. make the Istri on the Adriatic that colony, which by their own accounts of the Col∣chians sailing up the Danube to the Adriatic.

Solus ad egressus missus septemblicis Istri,
Parrhasiae gelido virginis axe prenor.
Jazyges, et Colchi, Metereaque turba, Getaeque,
Danubii mediis vix prohibentur aquis.

Trist. lib. II. el. 1.

piero
28-08-13, 22:46
Zanipolo, what do you think about this thesis?

Tacitus, roman historian, wrote that the language spoken in northeast Baltic region was similar to that spoken in Great Britain. In Brittany was probably living a not Celtic people: that people were the Venets, traders at the two sides of the English Channel. When Julius Caesar defeated the Venet fleet, the Venets escaped to the forest and then to Great Britain. With the Roman conquest of the island the Venets escaped up to the north beyond the Antonine wall, in Scotland. After the Roman withdrawal from the island, under the leadership of king Cunedda the Venets went down to northern Wales. There they established the kingdom of Gwynedd, that is the kingdom of Venets. The original adventures of king Arthur took place exactly in Gwynedd and probably king Arthur was a descendant of Cunedda. So we can object to the prejudice of a Celtic origin of Arthurian legend, for a Venetic origin.

Sile
28-08-13, 23:19
Zanipolo, what do you think about this thesis?

Tacitus, roman historian, wrote that the language spoken in northeast Baltic region was similar to that spoken in Great Britain. In Brittany was probably living a not Celtic people: that people were the Venets, traders at the two sides of the English Channel. When Julius Caesar defeated the Venet fleet, the Venets escaped to the forest and then to Great Britain. With the Roman conquest of the island the Venets escaped up to the north beyond the Antonine wall, in Scotland. After the Roman withdrawal from the island, under the leadership of king Cunedda the Venets went down to northern Wales. There they established the kingdom of Gwynedd, that is the kingdom of Venets. The original adventures of king Arthur took place exactly in Gwynedd and probably king Arthur was a descendant of Cunedda. So we can object to the prejudice of a Celtic origin of Arthurian legend, for a Venetic origin.

Hi piero

Zanipolo is dead, once he reached the status of King, he was beheaded........I will replace him.


Your theory is an old theory which is still spoken of today by celtic and gaelic people...................I have no opinion. But its seems that the Unelli ( veneti neighbours) plays a big part somewhere ( cotentin peninsula)

ciao, fa ben per noi !

Sile
31-08-13, 01:39
Piero

ceo'

http://veneto-tradizioni-stregoneria.blogspot.com.au/2013/07/resti-umani-come-oggetti-del-sacro-nel.html

this site might help you. Then again Elisa Perego contributes here, so I imagine you might know about this site.

adamo
31-08-13, 15:28
Wow Piero, very interesting haplogroups for an italian, full Neolithic. G is common in Georgia (30%), the Ossetian people of the Caucasus (88%), parts of turkey,Armenia,Azerbaijan,Iran (10%). In Europe, it is most present in southern Italians and north Sardinians (15%). Also found in 10% of parts of island of Crete. Your mtdna, HV, is also rare in Europe. It reflects a more ancestral form of H than most European females today have. Most italian females are mtdna group H (40%). It is very common west European female DNA. Being HV, this means you have a much more ancestral form; this indicates that your female ancestor may have arrived more recently to Italy, from the Middle East. Your y-DNA G paternal marker tells us the same exact story.

adamo
01-09-13, 15:27
Piero: on haplogroup mtdna HV:

Haplogroup HV is a west Eurasian haplogroup found throughout the Near East, including Anatolia (present-day Turkey) and the Caucasus Mountains of southern Russia and the republic of Georgia. It is also found in parts of East Africa, particularly in Ethiopia, where its presence there indicates recent Near Eastern gene flow, likely the result of the Arab slave trade over the last two millennia.

This lineage accounts for around 21 percent of maternal lineages in Armenia. It is about 8-10 percent of those in Turkey and about 5 percent of those in Croatia. Across much of Europe, this line is present at low frequencies of around 1 percent. This lineage accounts for about 7 percent of the population of both India in South Asia and the United Arab Emirates in West Asia.

Piero, I don't know where in Italy you come from, but you have Neolithic blood from both sides. It's like there is a perfect match between your area and heavy Neolithic influence. It's like your y-DNA G goes along with your mtdna HV in terms of its middle eastern, Caucasus region in particular, origin. You must cluster very heavily with Georgians,Armenians some Turks, Nakh peoples or maybe Azeri/Iranians.

adamo
01-09-13, 15:35
I know that G becomes more frequent in northern Apulia, Central Calabria, a few spots in Sicily and northern Sardinia. It is evidence of Neolithic gene flow from the middl east, most certainly via Anatolia towards the south-central Mediterranean region. G1 has it's highest diversity in Iran possibly; highest frequency is in Georgia (30%) and the Ossetian Nakh people of the Caucasus (88%). Most G today is G2a (P15) or G2; the G1 is much rarer in overall frequency. In total, 15% of southern italian males belong to G, but near Apulia's Gargano peninsula (Foggia) about 25% of men are G. 10% are G in the city of L'Aquila (oddly T is at 20% and L (Indian subcontinent) at 10%. Central Calabria can have cities with up to 20% G, same for parts of Sicily and Sardinia. Cretans have about 10-11% G. Mainland Greeks have 7.5% G; a European high.

Angela
01-09-13, 20:45
Piero: on haplogroup mtdna HV:

Haplogroup HV is a west Eurasian haplogroup found throughout the Near East, including Anatolia (present-day Turkey) and the Caucasus Mountains of southern Russia and the republic of Georgia. It is also found in parts of East Africa, particularly in Ethiopia, where its presence there indicates recent Near Eastern gene flow, likely the result of the Arab slave trade over the last two millennia.

This lineage accounts for around 21 percent of maternal lineages in Armenia. It is about 8-10 percent of those in Turkey and about 5 percent of those in Croatia. Across much of Europe, this line is present at low frequencies of around 1 percent. This lineage accounts for about 7 percent of the population of both India in South Asia and the United Arab Emirates in West Asia.

Piero, I don't know where in Italy you come from, but you have Neolithic blood from both sides. It's like there is a perfect match between your area and heavy Neolithic influence. It's like your y-DNA G goes along with your mtdna HV in terms of its middle eastern, Caucasus region in particular, origin. You must cluster very heavily with Georgians,Armenians some Turks, Nakh peoples or maybe Azeri/Iranians.

Well, that's something I'd like to see...I've never seen an Italian cluster with Caucasus people in any academic PCA of autosomal variation; in fact I've rarely seen them cluster with anyone except Italians on those plots (except a few northerners who stray into France on certain plots, or into the northern Mediterranean toward northern Spain, or start veering toward the Balkans, or some far southern Italians who may overlap with some Greeks and with some Ashkenazi.)

Their results on autosomal calculators are certainly very different, with actual Caucasus people having 20-30% more of the Caucasus component, and then additional Siberian, South Asian and East Asian in minor quantities. The percent Mediterranean is very different too.

Ed. I do respect the work that 23andme does, and although their Global Similarity Tool is outdated, it's an honest analysis, and there were two or three southern Italians who clustered in the Ashkenazi section, if I recall correctly. The 23andme PCA plot of all their participants was better, in my opinion.

Sile
02-09-13, 00:50
Wow Piero, very interesting haplogroups for an italian, full Neolithic. G is common in Georgia (30%), the Ossetian people of the Caucasus (88%), parts of turkey,Armenia,Azerbaijan,Iran (10%). In Europe, it is most present in southern Italians and north Sardinians (15%). Also found in 10% of parts of island of Crete. Your mtdna, HV, is also rare in Europe. It reflects a more ancestral form of H than most European females today have. Most italian females are mtdna group H (40%). It is very common west European female DNA. Being HV, this means you have a much more ancestral form; this indicates that your female ancestor may have arrived more recently to Italy, from the Middle East. Your y-DNA G paternal marker tells us the same exact story.

buy Piero's books and maybe more can be revealed

La dea veneta. Dal Baltico alla Bretagna (http://www.amazon.com/dea-veneta-Baltico-alla-Bretagna/dp/8895351584/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1378072069&sr=1-2) by Piero Favero (Jan 1, 2012)


Reitia. Dea dei veneti. L'Iliade svelata (http://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=10897516471&searchurl=an%3Dpiero%2Bfavero%26amp%3Bbsi%3D0%26am p%3Bds%3D30)

Piero Favero




http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-122710-031051/unrestricted/Final_Report_B10_Origins.pdf

the different theories in link above

As by some, veneti come from the Pala people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palaic_language

My views are the same, I believe in some or part of the above but do not believe in it all....yet.

I am still not convinced that veneti came from anatolia based on Homer.
Herodutus was found to be the only correct historian in placing the etruscans, so he states the veneti are ancient illyrians from pannonian lands .............i see he as the most legitimate person

Sile
02-09-13, 01:13
Well, that's something I'd like to see...I've never seen an Italian cluster with Caucasus people in any academic PCA of autosomal variation; in fact I've rarely seen them cluster with anyone except Italians on those plots (except a few northerners who stray into France on certain plots, or into the northern Mediterranean toward northern Spain, or start veering toward the Balkans, or some far southern Italians who may overlap with some Greeks and with some Ashkenazi.)

Their results on autosomal calculators are certainly very different, with actual Caucasus people having 20-30% more of the Caucasus component, and then additional Siberian, South Asian and East Asian in minor quantities. The percent Mediterranean is very different too.

Ed. I do respect the work that 23andme does, and although their Global Similarity Tool is outdated, it's an honest analysis, and there were two or three southern Italians who clustered in the Ashkenazi section, if I recall correctly. The 23andme PCA plot of all their participants was better, in my opinion.

hmm, 23andme needs to update there data ( along with dodecad...5 people needs to be 10 tested ). Below is my 23andme

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/3008/xqse.png (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/xqse.png/)

Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

piero
16-09-13, 19:55
Hi Sile

ceo'

Then again Elisa Perego contributes here, so I imagine you might know about this site.

I meet personally the archaelogist Elisa Perego, we visit together the ancient Veneti exhibition "Venetkens", in Padova.

What now I'm looking for at the moment is a link between "Wendi" of Baltic Vistula river region and "Veneti" of Brittany. There were a lot of amber jewels both in Brittany and in England, maybe amber trading is the link between the two regions. At the moment I can not see any haplogroups link. What is your opinion?

piero
16-09-13, 20:04
Adamo :-)
I'm really very grateful to you for your post about my paternal G and female HV haplogroups origins.

Piero, I don't know where in Italy you come from, but you have Neolithic blood from both sides. It's like there is a perfect match between your area and heavy Neolithic influence. It's like your y-DNA G goes along with your mtdna HV in terms of its middle eastern, Caucasus region in particular, origin. You must cluster very heavily with Georgians,Armenians some Turks, Nakh peoples or maybe Azeri/Iranians.
If I ask for sub-clades test, can I have some more interesting genetic news about my origin?
In my opinion (no scientific basis about that) I can imagine that my ancestors migrated from caucasus to Anatolia, along Dnieper river they reach central Europe and than they stay some centuries in Bavaria, were G haplogroup is concentrated; finally they went down to Veneto, were I was born. Is it only fantasy or is it a possible way?

adamo
04-10-13, 07:07
You should have your haplogroup G further tested, in most probabilities it is G2a, which traces a "high frequency zone" moving from Georgia and eastern turkey towards western turkey to Greece, and from Greece to southern Italy and then Sardinia. These haplogroup G2a men were Neolithic agriculturalists that entered europe recently (10,000-15,000 years) they moved from the Caucasus, (Georgia in particular) through turkey, into the Mediterranean world, moving from Greece to the southern portion of Italy, were still today, there are European highs in italian regions such as Campobasso or Catanzaro, were 20-25% of the males are G (highest frequency of G in Europe). Parts of norther Sardinia also have abnormally high frequencies (10-20%) but southern Italy is the peak. Greece has very low frequencies in totality, except for a high of 12% in the Thessaly region. As for the father mutation of G2a; the older G* (the most basal G mutation) seems to have highest age and frequency on the west Iranian plateau. G2a although, the line found in most European and Caucasus region G men, originated in the general region of Georgia, and from there migrated to the Mediterranean world in low, but present frequencies.

adamo
04-10-13, 07:14
With both your (Y-DNA) line and your MTDNA line being haplogroup G and haplogroup HV; this would mean that both your father's paternal lineage and your mother's maternal lineage arrived in Europe relatively recently (Neolithic period) compared to other more "European" populations/haplogroups such as HV's succeeding "H" or "V" mutations or paternal line R1b, I; these men have been in Europe the longest time. Whereas your ancient ancestors, at least it seems, on both sides, arrived by boat from the east....probably from Turkey and further back from Georgia.....it seems your maternal side has a similar story; a more recent middle eastern link that most European males/females do not have.

adamo
04-10-13, 09:40
Haplogroup G1 may have originated as far as the Himalayan foothills; somewhere near eastern Iran/Pakistan, this is a possibility as well, and then it traveled west towards the central "middle east"

adamo
04-10-13, 09:44
All the information you would like to know on HV:

Descending from haplogroup R were a group of individuals who formed a western Eurasian lineage. The descendants of pre-HV live in high frequencies in the Anatolian-Caucasus region and Iran. While members of this group can also be found in the Indus Valley near the Pakistan-India border, their presence is considered the result of a subsequent migration eastward of individuals out of the Near East.


Individuals in haplogroup pre-HV can be found all around the Red Sea and widely throughout the Near East. While this genetic lineage is common in Ethiopia and Somalia, individuals from this group are found at highest frequency in Arabia. Because of their close genetic and geographic proximity to other western Eurasian clusters, members of this group living in eastern Africa are the likely result of more recent migrations back into the continent.


As we have seen from haplogroups N and R, descendants from these western Eurasian lineages used the Near East as a home base of sorts, radiating from that region to populate much of the rest of the world. Their descendants comprise all of the western Eurasian genetic lineages, and about half of the eastern Eurasian mtDNA gene pool. Some individuals moved across the Middle East into Central Asia and the Hindus Valley near western India. Some moved south, heading back into the African homeland from where their ancestors had recently departed.


Haplogroup pre-HV is of particular importance because over the course of several thousand years, its descendants split off and formed their own group, called HV. This group—thanks in large part to a brutal cold spell that was about to set in—gave rise to the two most prevalent female lineages found in Western Europe.


While some descendants of these ancestral lineages moved out across Central Asia, the Indus Valley, and even back into Africa, your ancestors remained in the Near East. Descending from haplogroup pre-HV, they formed a new group, characterized by a unique set of mutations, called haplogroup HV.


Haplogroup HV is a west Eurasian haplogroup found throughout the Near East, including Anatolia (present-day Turkey) and the Caucasus Mountains of southern Russia and the republic of Georgia. It is also found in parts of East Africa, particularly in Ethiopia, where its presence there indicates recent Near Eastern gene flow, likely the result of the Arab slave trade over the last two millennia.


Much earlier, around 30,000 years ago, some members of HV moved north across the Caucasus Mountains and west across Anatolia, their lineages being carried into Europe for the first time by the Cro-Magnon. Their arrival in Europe heralded the end of the era of the Neanderthals, a hominid species that inhabited Europe and parts of western Asia from about 230,000 to 29,000 years ago. Better communication skills, weapons, and resourcefulness probably enabled them to outcompete Neanderthals for scarce resources. Importantly, some descendants of HV had already broken off and formed their own group, haplogroup H, and continued the push into Western Europe.


Today, members of this line are part of the populations of Europe, West Asia (including Anatolia), and the Caucasus Mountains of South Russia and the Republic of Georgia.


This lineage accounts for around 21 percent of maternal lineages in Armenia. It is about 8 percent of those in Turkey and about 5 percent of those in Croatia. Across much of Europe, this line is present at low frequencies of around 1 percent. This lineage accounts for about 7 percent of the population of both India in South Asia and the United Arab Emirates in West Asia.

adamo
04-10-13, 09:49
HV is heavily associated with middle eastern females from Turkey, southern mountains of Russia, Georgia. It is found in Ethiopia as recent middle eastern gene flow. It is native to one fifth (21%) of Armenian females. HV in it's pre-HV form is most frequent in Iran and the Anatolia/Caucasus region. The presence of pre-HV in women from the Indus Valley (Pakistan/India border region) is considered as having arrived there first from the Middle East where it originated. Pre-HV can also be found by the Red Sea and at high frequencies across Arabia as well.

adamo
04-10-13, 09:55
A map of HV shows a high in Iraq and the next highest frequencies are parts of Armeniz,Azerbaijan,Iran and lower but still higher than normal frequencies are found across turkey, the Arabian peninsula, southern Russia were probably Chechens and Nakh people's would live, and parts of Central Asia near Pakistan,Afghanistan etc. HV has a small high in the Tuscany region of Italy were the ancient Etruscans would have inhabited; it's a European hi although the frequencies are very low regardless.

Sile
04-10-13, 23:05
A map of HV shows a high in Iraq and the next highest frequencies are parts of Armeniz,Azerbaijan,Iran and lower but still higher than normal frequencies are found across turkey, the Arabian peninsula, southern Russia were probably Chechens and Nakh people's would live, and parts of Central Asia near Pakistan,Afghanistan etc. HV has a small high in the Tuscany region of Italy were the ancient Etruscans would have inhabited; it's a European hi although the frequencies are very low regardless.

There is very little HV in Veneto...breakdown of Mtdna in Veneto below


West Veneto
H - 42.1%
T - 26.3%
U - 13.2%
X - 7.9%
J - 5.3%
V - 2.6%
preV - 2.5%
HV- 0
I - 0

East Veneto
H - 40.0%
J -16.7%
T - 16.7%
I - 6.7%
V - 6.7%
U+K - 6.7%
HV - 3.3%

Combined
H - 41.1%
T - 22.0%
J - 10.3%
U - 5.9%
K - 5.9%
V - 4.4%
X - 4.4%
I - 2.9%
HV - 1.4%
preV - 1.4%

adamo
05-10-13, 00:08
So your saying he may not be the correct haplogroup? Lol

adamo
05-10-13, 00:09
Or maybe he's just an extreme rarity for that region; hg G in Veneto is very rare as well lol..so maybe his ancestors came from a different part of Italy then migrat northeast?

Sile
05-10-13, 04:13
Or maybe he's just an extreme rarity for that region; hg G in Veneto is very rare as well lol..so maybe his ancestors came from a different part of Italy then migrat northeast?

Piero stated he was Bavarian in area. The bavarian ( both before they became germanic and after they became germanic ) migrated to Veneto , Trentino and Friuli. Some notable families are the Scaliger, Ezzelini, Savorgnan etc .
By his surname, he is central Veneto and most likely came down from trentino area or Belluno.

G is not rare in Veneto.

There is a project to test all Venetian nobility's DNA, the Balbi family and another family ( i cannot recall) are G1c

if you have
some connection to the 'Veneto' region, or Northern Italy and
across to Croatia.

For SNP:
Look for 'G' in rs5747008 as AG or GG
Look for 'T' in rs3788268 as CT or TT
Look for 'C' in rs4423695 as CT or CC
Look for 'T' in rs1079554 as CT or TT
Look for 'G' in rs12216299 as GT or GG
Look for 'T' in rs12416605 as CT or TT

In each case the SNP has a heterozygous level that is low
in European populations; and a homozygous level that is
practically zero.

If you have any of these...write to Ian Logan as he is extremely interested

DejaVu
05-10-13, 19:16
Piero stated he was Bavarian in area. The bavarian ( both before they became germanic and after they became germanic ) migrated to Veneto , Trentino and Friuli. Some notable families are the Scaliger, Ezzelini, Savorgnan etc .
By his surname, he is central Veneto and most likely came down from trentino area or Belluno.

G is not rare in Veneto.

There is a project to test all Venetian nobility's DNA, the Balbi family and another family ( i cannot recall) are G1c

if you have
some connection to the 'Veneto' region, or Northern Italy and
across to Croatia.

For SNP:
Look for 'G' in rs5747008 as AG or GG
Look for 'T' in rs3788268 as CT or TT
Look for 'C' in rs4423695 as CT or CC
Look for 'T' in rs1079554 as CT or TT
Look for 'G' in rs12216299 as GT or GG
Look for 'T' in rs12416605 as CT or TT

In each case the SNP has a heterozygous level that is low
in European populations; and a homozygous level that is
practically zero.

If you have any of these...write to Ian Logan as he is extremely interested


Balbi DNA Project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/balbidnaproject/default.aspx?section=yresults

Sile
07-10-13, 07:43
Balbi DNA Project http://www.familytreedna.com/public/balbidnaproject/default.aspx?section=yresults

That Balbi in Venice is

N Haplogroup Probability
1 G2a-P15 98%


unsure if its the one I talked about...I will find out

piero
09-10-13, 22:18
There is a project to test all Venetian nobility's DNA Sile, do you have more details about this project?

I partecipate to a general project about Venetian genetic in 2009, it was promoted by professor Fabio Carrera, but I think that this project shipwreked (despite being connected in some way with Genographic project https://genographic.nationalgeographic.com/).
The final report of the Venetians origins project looks like to be inconclusive and not scientific: http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-010510-121008/unrestricted/Origins_Report_Final.pdf

piero
09-10-13, 22:35
Adamo, the last paper of Boattini et al. probably has demonstrated that G2a is very ancient in Italy, probably Palaeolitic.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

Angela
10-10-13, 00:35
Adamo, the last paper of Boattini et al. probably has demonstrated that G2a is very ancient in Italy, probably Palaeolitic.
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

According to Boattini et al, there are at least three major groups of G2a in Italy, and they have different ages.

adamo
10-10-13, 09:18
All of G2a's age estimates are between 2785 years and 15,020 years, I don't get your point

adamo
10-10-13, 09:19
They all arrived during the Neolithic to italy

piero
10-10-13, 19:28
Superior Paleolitic is about from 40 000 to 10 000 years ago.
http://www.plosone.org/article/fetchObject.action?uri=info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0065441.g002&representation=PNG_M

adamo
10-10-13, 21:06
No; 10,000-15,000 years ago is the Neolithic era during which agriculturalist middle easterners and certain north-African types that moved to the Middle East invaded southeastern Europe because of their constant food and resource surpluses. The G haplogroup would have probably accompanied J2,T and E3b lineages; the most frequent agriculturalist lineages in Europe are J2 and E3b; G is much rarer and T is very rare. It seems there was an expansion of genes from Georgia towards Italy, as parts of southern Italy have some of europe's highest J2, E3b, G AND T frequencies. The lineage G2a encompasses 10-12% of all italian men; a similar frequency to R1b- U152 in Italy (12%). E-V13 and J2a* affect about 7-8% of italian men (just those particular subclades of those haplogroups).

adamo
10-10-13, 21:10
A great migration took place, from the Paris Basin, towards Italy, 6,000 years before Christ, Celtic people's pouring in, according to gathered area. The first anatolians set up on Crete 9,000 years before Christ, and colonized the Apulia region of Italy 1000 years later (8000 before Christ). One migration came from the north, the other from the sea to the east.

Angela
11-10-13, 01:54
They all arrived during the Neolithic to italy

Well, not according to Boattini et al...

I'll preface this by saying that the dating issue is unresolved in my mind. The authors themselves advise taking their dates, based on the germline rate, not the evolutionary rate, with a great deal of caution. I especially think that's warranted because they use very few STR's, although the ones they chose are the ones least subject to saturation.

Leaving that aside, and looking at their figures, they concluded that " In fact, in contrast to mtDNA age estimates, almost all Y-chromosome estimates fall between late Neolithic and the Bronze Age. "

Later, however, they say" it is worth noting the older age estimate obtained for Y-haplogroup G2-P15 (15,020 YBP) that, coupled with its high frequency (11.09%), makes it the most probable candidate for a continuity with Italian Mesolithic populations (although a Neolithic origin for G2-P15 is discussed, [22] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441#pone.0 065441-Lacan1), [23] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441#pone.0 065441-Lacan2)). The most frequent G2-P15 cluster (12,643 YBP, Table 2 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441#pone-0065441-t002)), besides being evenly diffused in NWI and SEI, it encompasses almost all Sardinian G2-P15 individuals (Figure 2 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441#pone-0065441-g002), Table 1 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441#pone-0065441-t001)). These facts, together with the higher degree of isolation of Sardinia to Neolithic and Post-Neolithic migration processes, support the antiquity of this haplogroup in Italy. Despite obtaining similar time estimates for G2a in Italy (12,899 YBP), Rootsi et al. (2012) [62] (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441#pone.0 065441-Rootsi2) explain the diffusion of its main sub-lineages in this country solely as a consequence of Neolithic and Post-Neolithic events."

So, while they acknowledge that other interpretations are possible, they posit a mesolithic origin for the pan-Italian and Sardinian cluster of G2a in Italy (It's Group 3 in their table)

There are arguments to be made on either side. The Neolithic didn't arrive in Italy until long after 13, 000 B.C. That's old even for the Neolithic in Anatolia. Even Rootsi et al's 11,000 B.C. is early. However, it's a fact that there was some demographic movement from the near East into Europe that accompanied the Neolithic transition, and G2a has been found all over the so far sampled Neolithic sites in Europe, so perhaps their dates are slightly off.

Just generally, while I think their data is very informative, I find their explanations for the NW Italy/SE Italy split rather confusing. They give a nod to the fact that, " the dates of several DAPC clusters fall within the range of the Metal Ages (Table 2 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441#pone-0065441-t002)). During this long period (third and second millennia BC) Italy underwent important technological and social transformations finally leading to the ethnogenesis of the most important proto-historic Italic peoples. On the whole, our results indicate that these transformations, far from being exclusively cultural phenomena, actually involved relevant population events.'

However, at the same time they conclude that the differing sources of the Neolithic in Italy, i.e a more Mesolithic/Neolithic mix in NW Italy, with a more central European and western orientation and a more complete Neolithic picture in the SE with more affinities to the Balkans and Anatolia, explains the split.

Part of the problem, I think, lies in the fact, as they say, that "the model used does not account for migration. " And yet the structure looks like it could be traced back to that 3500 B.C. date that might very well indicate migration from central Europe.

As for how this impacts G2a, it seems to me that the pan Italian older cluster could most probably be connected to the Neolithic in Italy, while the NW cluster that they identify as being more similar to the German cluster, could be related to these later population migrations, and the specifically southern ones that seem to date to the Bronze Age would fit very well with migrations from the Aegean.

Nobody1
11-10-13, 04:26
Also from Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.

This could suggest a Northern (Alpine) route and a Southern (Mediterranean) route for G2a in Italy or a route from the South [SEI] towards the Alps and beyond;

http://imageshack.us/a/img23/2200/tzjh.png
NWI: North-Western Italy / SEI: South-Eastern Italy / SAR: Sardinia
IBE: Iberian Peninsula / BAL: Balkan Peninsula / GER: Central-Europe (Germany) / CAU: Caucasus

MOESAN
12-10-13, 17:25
Also from Boattini et al 2013
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0065441

Most notably, G2a-P15 haplotypes from NWI cluster mainly with German ones, while haplotypes from SEI seem to indicate wider relationships, going from Iberia to the Balkans and the Caucasus.

This could suggest a Northern (Alpine) route and a Southern (Mediterranean) route for G2a in Italy or a route from the South [SEI] towards the Alps and beyond;

http://imageshack.us/a/img23/2200/tzjh.png
NWI: North-Western Italy / SEI: South-Eastern Italy / SAR: Sardinia
IBE: Iberian Peninsula / BAL: Balkan Peninsula / GER: Central-Europe (Germany) / CAU: Caucasus

if Y-G2a NWI is closer to the Switzerland-Germany-Austrian G2a, it could very well be of danubian neolithic origin, and not the possible South to North cardial colonization along Rhône River...
as we are speaking about Veneti and possible connexions, I red again even the classical writers of antic roman and greek times considered the Veneti of today Britanny and the Veneti of today Italy as completely distinct peoples, with no evident cultural nor linguistic ties -

Sile
12-10-13, 20:08
if Y-G2a NWI is closer to the Switzerland-Germany-Austrian G2a, it could very well be of danubian neolithic origin, and not the possible South to North cardial colonization along Rhône River...
as we are speaking about Veneti and possible connexions, I red again even the classical writers of antic roman and greek times considered the Veneti of today Britanny and the Veneti of today Italy as completely distinct peoples, with no evident cultural nor linguistic ties -

That is true, but there is a theory being looked at since 2011 which states 3 possibilities:
1 - They came via anatolia (asia minor) ............the phygian cap is one of their symbols
2 - They came via lusatia ( East Germanic , if there ever was a east germanic in the bronze-age)
3 - brittany , where their neighbours the cenomanni commenced in maine ( next to brittany) and arrived in western Veneto ( although there is a 700 year difference in traveling time)

I believe G2a did not arrive by the sea, but by the danube river

piero
12-10-13, 21:43
This could suggest a Northern (Alpine) route for G2a in Italy.
This is in line with the result that Ötzi the Iceman, the Similaun Man, has a Y-line DNA haplogroup G2a2b. (From the Docu-Movie: "Ötzi, ein Archäologiekrimi" by Christine Sprachmann. TV-Broadcast by 3sat 10 August 2011 and br-alpha 13 September 2011).


as we are speaking about Veneti and possible connexions, I red again even the classical writers of antic roman and greek times considered the Veneti of today Britanny and the Veneti of today Italy as completely distinct peoples, with no evident cultural nor linguistic ties

Sorry Moesan: the ancient geographer Strabo wrote about a common belive on a connection between Brittany and Adriatic Veneti.


1 - They came via anatolia (asia minor) ............the phygian cap is one of their symbols
2 - They came via lusatia ( East Germanic , if there ever was a east germanic in the bronze-age)
In opinion of Francoise Bader (from Sorbonne) they start from Anatolia, they reach Lusatian area and then they went down to Italy. This is also my opinion, in a cultural sense (I don't know if it has also a genetic connection).

Sile
13-10-13, 02:02
In opinion of Francoise Bader (from Sorbonne) they start from Anatolia, they reach Lusatian area and then they went down to Italy. This is also my opinion, in a cultural sense (I don't know if it has also a genetic connection).

I read a few years from old authors , both English and continental, from about 1780-1820, that the veneti crossed into europe 100 years before the fall of troy , about 1280BC, they proceed along the black sea until the reached the Danube river. They then went inland and split from each other where the Danube meets the Sava river. One group settled in pannonian area and the other went to modern thuringia lands in Germany. ...........I have no opinion on the thuringia part, but the other part makes sense.

Nobody1
13-10-13, 05:52
as we are speaking about Veneti and possible connexions, I red again even the classical writers of antic roman and greek times considered the Veneti of today Britanny and the Veneti of today Italy as completely distinct peoples, with no evident cultural nor linguistic ties -

Yes;
I also do not view the Adriatic Veneti and the Armorica Veneti to be directly connected;
Only connected in the broader Indo-European context; But of two diff. Indo-European branches;
With the Armorica Veneti being Keltic(Gauls) and the Adriatic Veneti being pos. Isolated or pos. Italic (maybe even Illyrian);

Polybius - Book II/XVII
The part of the plain near the Adriatic had never ceased to be in the possession of another very ancient tribe called the Veneti, differing slightly from the Gauls in customs and costume and speaking another language.

The reason the Veneti differ only slightly from the Gauls in customs and costume is the broader Indo-European context;
As is also noted in Archaeology of the Urnfield Este culture complex;

The language is Indo-European but neither Italic or Keltic but with several similarities to both;

J. Gvozdanovic - Uni. Heidelberg
http://www.jolr.ru/files/%2883%29jlr2012-7%2833-46%29.pdf
Discussions about the linguistic classification of Venetic among the western Indo-European languages gear towards two major solutions: either treating Venetic as a relatively archaic Indo-European language with some similarities, but not unequivocally attributable to any other western Indo-European group (cf. especially Krahe 1950 and Polomé 1966), or assuming a close connection with Italic (especially Beeler 1949, or Euler 1993, who considers Venetic to be closely connected with Italic, but with archaic morphological traits).

R. E. Wallace - Uni. Massachusetts Amherst
http://www.cs.princeton.edu/~mimno/papers/venetic.pdf

Nobody1
13-10-13, 07:46
This is in line with the result that Ötzi the Iceman, the Similaun Man, has a Y-line DNA haplogroup G2a2b. (From the Docu-Movie: "Ötzi, ein Archäologiekrimi" by Christine Sprachmann. TV-Broadcast by 3sat 10 August 2011 and br-alpha 13 September 2011).

Keller et al 2012 - Ötzi
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n2/pdf/ncomms1701.pdf

Ötzi was G2a-P15/L91 (G2a2b former G2a4) this Hg is app. mostly in modern-days in Corsica and Sardinia;

Tyrol (Reutte district) = 8.5% G2a-P15 [261 samples] Erhart et al 2012
East Tyrol = 7.4% G2a-P15 [270 samples] Niederstätter et al 2012
NE Italy (Veneto) = 6.8% G2a-P15 [73 samples] Boattini et al 2013
NE Italy (Trient prov.) = 11.9% G2a-P15 [67 samples] Battaglia et al 2009
NW Italy (Lombardy/Piedmont/Liguria) = 8.1% G2a-P15 [161 samples] Boattini et al 2013
Bavaria = 3.2% G2a-P15 [218 samples] Rebala et al 2013
Slovakia = 4.8% G2a-P15 [164 samples] Rebala et al 2013
Ukraine = 3.3% G2a-P15 [92 samples] Battaglia et al 2009
Bulgaria = 4.8% G2a-P15 [808 samples] Karachanak et al 2013
Sardinia = 9.9% G2a-P15 [1200 samples] Francalacci et al 2013

Sile has recently posted about 2 new studies that suggest that the majority G2a-P15 lineage in modern-day Europe and the modern-day Alps is not L91 but L497; If i understood that correct;

Sile
13-10-13, 11:26
Keller et al 2012 - Ötzi
http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v3/n2/pdf/ncomms1701.pdf

Ötzi was G2a-P15/L91 (G2a2b former G2a4) this Hg is app. mostly in modern-days in Corsica and Sardinia;

Tyrol (Reutte district) = 8.5% G2a-P15 [261 samples] Erhart et al 2012
East Tyrol = 7.4% G2a-P15 [270 samples] Niederstätter et al 2012
NE Italy (Veneto) = 6.8% G2a-P15 [73 samples] Boattini et al 2013
NE Italy (Trient prov.) = 11.9% G2a-P15 [67 samples] Battaglia et al 2009
NW Italy (Lombardy/Piedmont/Liguria) = 8.1% G2a-P15 [161 samples] Boattini et al 2013
Bavaria = 3.2% G2a-P15 [218 samples] Rebala et al 2013
Slovakia = 4.8% G2a-P15 [164 samples] Rebala et al 2013
Ukraine = 3.3% G2a-P15 [92 samples] Battaglia et al 2009
Bulgaria = 4.8% G2a-P15 [808 samples] Karachanak et al 2013
Sardinia = 9.9% G2a-P15 [1200 samples] Francalacci et al 2013

Sile has recently posted about 2 new studies that suggest that the majority G2a-P15 lineage in modern-day Europe and the modern-day Alps is not L91 but L497; If i understood that correct;

yes here it is

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28909-G2-L497-a-Rhaetic-Celtic-marker?p=412523&viewfull=1#post412523

about 3% is otzi marker

Marjeta
13-10-13, 11:42
Hay, I can contribute with some info about Slovenia G2a. We have around 4,19 G2a (all G). There are two main subgroups of G2a in Slovenia, L497 and M406, with almost the same frequency. But yes, there is a little bit more L497 (9 people). M406 (6 people). And there are 5 samples I could not put them in subgroups (just few analised markers). In eupedia is written that M406 is from neolitic and L497 came in Europe with Indoeuropeans in bronze age.

Marjeta
13-10-13, 12:17
About Venets: we should waith on the results of genetic studies (I hope!) that will tell us what haplotypes and haplogroups belonged to the ancient Venets in Italy and in Slovenia and on other areas and then we should compare all this haplotypes between them and with haplotypes with now day living men in Italy, Slovenia etc. I think Venets had more R1a, but this is just my oppinion. I really want to know this. Slovenian R1a (38%) is mix of different branches, but allmost all is in Z280. I found one old european R1a, too. Inside of it (Z280), there is a large group called balto-carpathian branch (called also carpatho-dalmatian branch) and it is very specific for Slovenia and also Croatia (but I do not know if just for west Croatia). Allmost all younger R1a-M458 (3-5%) is west slavic and not central european.

Sile
13-10-13, 13:15
About Venets: we should waith on the results of genetic studies (I hope!) that will tell us what haplotypes and haplogroups belonged to the ancient Venets in Italy and in Slovenia and on other areas and then we should compare all this haplotypes between them and with haplotypes with now day living men in Italy, Slovenia etc. I think Venets had more R1a, but this is just my oppinion. I really want to know this. Slovenian R1a (38%) is mix of different branches, but allmost all is in Z280. I found one old european R1a, too. Inside of it (Z280), there is a large group called balto-carpathian branch (called also carpatho-dalmatian branch) and it is very specific for Slovenia and also Croatia (but I do not know if just for west Croatia). Allmost all younger R1a-M458 (3-5%) is west slavic and not central european.

according to this site and all the combined papers which where tested, it says 13% for friuli for R1a and only 2% for veneti

http://www.eupedia.com/genetics/italian_dna.shtml

Sile
13-10-13, 13:15
Hay, I can contribute with some info about Slovenia G2a. We have around 4,19 G2a (all G). There are two main subgroups of G2a in Slovenia, L497 and M406, with almost the same frequency. But yes, there is a little bit more L497 (9 people). M406 (6 people). And there are 5 samples I could not put them in subgroups (just few analised markers). In eupedia is written that M406 is from neolitic and L497 came in Europe with Indoeuropeans in bronze age.

that would be interesting

according to the paper where the stats came from , it can be bronze-age , but it did not migrate to western austria. It was formed in western austria. From there it went to areas on the adjoining map in the link.
I am speaking about G-L497

MOESAN
13-10-13, 14:20
This is in line with the result that Ötzi the Iceman, the Similaun Man, has a Y-line DNA haplogroup G2a2b. (From the Docu-Movie: "Ötzi, ein Archäologiekrimi" by Christine Sprachmann. TV-Broadcast by 3sat 10 August 2011 and br-alpha 13 September 2011).


Sorry Moesan: the ancient geographer Strabo wrote about a common belive on a connection between Brittany and Adriatic Veneti.


In opinion of Francoise Bader (from Sorbonne) they start from Anatolia, they reach Lusatian area and then they went down to Italy. This is also my opinion, in a cultural sense (I don't know if it has also a genetic connection).


My information was a second hand one, unprecise and I never red latine in the text (helas!): it spoke of a majority of ancient "historians", not telling all of them were of the same opinion... the genetic male ligneages seems separating (based on modern assumptions it is true) clearly Veneti of Brittany and Veneti of NE Italy; wait ancient DNA...
concerning Y-G, M406 and L497 are "brother" SNPs, "son" of L32- L91, is "son" of L32 too, seems a "cousin", I suppose come by sea at Cardial -
I confess I'm not able to put a cultural name on M406 and L497: they are continental I presume, via Danau river - neolithical by origin, but we know neolithical people were later involved in I-E movements East to West (and too West to East in Steppes)... so?
good sunday

piero
14-10-13, 21:57
In general view in North East Italy we had Terramare culture (from 1600 b.C) then this culture collapsed and was repalced in 1200 b.C by Urnfield culture. Later there was expansion of Hallstatt culture but it affected North East Italy only indirectly. I don't know if you agree about this timeline and secuences, the topic is debated.
604460456046

piero
14-10-13, 22:03
6047


PS Why so small my pictures?

Sile
16-10-13, 08:15
In general view in North East Italy we had Terramare culture (from 1600 b.C) then this culture collapsed and was repalced in 1200 b.C by Urnfield culture. Later there was expansion of Hallstatt culture but it affected North East Italy only indirectly. I don't know if you agree about this timeline and secuences, the topic is debated.
604460456046

if we go back 100 and 200 years to older books, which the authors in those days gave far more detail than today, we find some things, in which the questions have still not been answered.

San thoedore of Amasea .....first patron saint of venice in 452AD. the other column in the Molo. Amasea is in ancient Hittite lands the northern part. it was the birth place of Strabo. Why was he chosen?
or was it the other Theodore from Heraclea Pontis which is in Anatolia under bithynia ......which is Thracian
or Theodore of Mesembria which is the only Doric port in the black sea in modern Bulgaria. These dorians came from Caria in SW anatolia ( sometimes called carians) who where ancient Minoans.
why the phrygian cap which is hittite in hittite lands was it a symbol of the Doge of Venice.?
Why the the venetian lion an exact copy of the Hittite lion with its asiatic face?

who is not to say the Venetic people where ancient Hittite ( or a branch of them )

these questions have never been answered even though they where brought up in the 18th century.

The history of the veneti lands is .....the liburnians occupied them, from zadar ( croatia) to ravenna ( italy).......later after so time, the veneti moved into the middle of the liburnians and cut them off from each other. Some linguistics state that north picene ( not south picene ) is similar to Liburnian .

these are all sensible questions

piero
19-10-13, 20:29
6050
who is not to say the Venetic people where ancient Hittite
Hi Sile, you know so good Venetian history that I think you are a veneto, maybe a Trevigiano (from river Sile). I don't believe Anatolian Veneti were Hittites: as you can see in every map Hittites area isn't over Halis river, there were no Hittites in Paphlagonia. In Paphlagonia in very ancient time were living the people of Pala, with their own Palaic language.

Sile
19-10-13, 20:59
6050
Hi Sile, you know so good Venetian history that I think you are a veneto, maybe a Trevigiano (from river Sile). I don't believe Anatolian Veneti were Hittites: as you can see in every map Hittites area isn't over Halis river, there were no Hittites in Paphlagonia. In Paphlagonia in very ancient time were living the people of Pala, with their own Palaic language.

yes

and San theodore di Amasea ( if that is the Theodore on the column in venice ) comes from your map in the location of masat huyuk in northern hittite lands

piero
20-10-13, 18:58
6053
Sorry, you are right: Amasea is Hellenopontus not in Paphlagonia. Anyway Paphlagonia is inside Pontus Dioecesis (400 A.D.).

piero
30-10-13, 20:33
What about mtDNA of ancient Veneti? Things are quite clear for Etruscans origin (from Anatolia). Why not to study also Veneti mtDNA in order to clarify their origin?
6063

adamo
31-10-13, 01:41
The ancient Veneti have long faded into history Piero; although there are interesting studies on haplogroups across Veneto province, although this would be an analysis of modern venetians and not necessarily the supposedly paphlagonian Turkish Adriatic Veneti.

Sile
31-10-13, 08:23
The ancient Veneti have long faded into history Piero; although there are interesting studies on haplogroups across Veneto province, although this would be an analysis of modern venetians and not necessarily the supposedly paphlagonian Turkish Adriatic Veneti.

I am surprised that since they have 243 skeletons ( mostly women and children ) of venetic lands, that no DNA is mentioned

piero
31-10-13, 20:50
I am surprised that since they have 243 skeletons ( mostly women and children ) of venetic lands, that no DNA is mentioned
It is a problem of sponsor: Veneti haplogroups researces need some private Institute, Company or Bank giving money for this research. For Etruscans they had sponsors so genetists are actually working about:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0055519

piero
16-11-13, 19:28
Dr. Rossi-Osmida is now arguing about an origin of Veneti from Turkmenistan.
http://www.ilgiornaledivicenza.it/stories/Cultura/588760_e_il_paleomito_dei_veneti_rinasce_in_turkme nistan/

Sile
16-11-13, 20:52
Dr. Rossi-Osmida is now arguing about an origin of Veneti from Turkmenistan.
http://www.ilgiornaledivicenza.it/stories/Cultura/588760_e_il_paleomito_dei_veneti_rinasce_in_turkme nistan/

Turkenistan, is the northern border of the Persian empire, these people are not turkic but iranian, most likely parthian or bactrian. The turkic people came from modern western China and invaded europe and the middle-east not earlier than 500AD. They did not arrive in anatolia until 600AD
The Veneti where already in the adriatic more than 1700 years before

adamo
16-11-13, 23:15
So the Enetoi came from Turkmenistan wow; f_ _ _ me.....

Nobody1
16-11-13, 23:53
Dr. Rossi-Osmida is now arguing about an origin of Veneti from Turkmenistan.
http://www.ilgiornaledivicenza.it/stories/Cultura/588760_e_il_paleomito_dei_veneti_rinasce_in_turkme nistan/

Turkmenistan sounds fantastic - and yet they spoke a centum Indo-European language prob. must than be connected with Tocharian;

adamo
17-11-13, 01:35
The were from Turkmenistan....wow; well I guess this will radically change our perception of the ancient eneti's genetic lineages

Sile
30-11-13, 02:09
Dr. Rossi-Osmida is now arguing about an origin of Veneti from Turkmenistan.
http://www.ilgiornaledivicenza.it/stories/Cultura/588760_e_il_paleomito_dei_veneti_rinasce_in_turkme nistan/

Harvard University are doing a DNA on skeltons found in the area. summary is Veneti left Turkmenistan around 1300BC and headed west. more below form another article.

The Venetians came from Turkmenistan?

The discovery of a bone plate in the oasis of Adji Kui confirms the hypothesis of archaeologists

The legendary Paphlagonia, mentioned by Homer and Strabo, really exists. The Venetian in all probability came from the legendary land, located not far from Turkmenistan in the Caspian Sea. The latest confirmation comes from the discovery of a bone plate of the third millennium BC in the course of an excavation campaign in the oasis of Adji Kui, not far from the Caspian Sea. The small object is decorated with carved rosettes, a pattern that is found frequently in the objects of culture paleoveneta. The legend of the origin of the Asian Veneto comes from Homer, quoted by Strabo, who speaks of Paphlagonia, homeland of the ancient people of the Eneti, or the Venetians. It 'a quarter of a century that the mission of Gabriele Rossi Osmida is bringing to light some towns belonging to the "oasis of civilization", the caravan in the desert. And slowly recovers the history of the suggestions of the literature and confirms the reliability of ancient traditions. The next step, in collaboration with the Department of Anthropology at the University of Harvard, is the map of the DNA of the skeletons found.

Nobody1
30-11-13, 04:17
Harvard University are doing a DNA on skeltons found in the area. summary is Veneti left Turkmenistan around 1300BC and headed west. more below form another article.

Which area; Veneto or Turkmenistan?

Sile
30-11-13, 05:03
Which area; Veneto or Turkmenistan?

Turkmenistan

Are they west-asian or caucasian, maybe gedrosian...............which?

kamani
30-11-13, 05:49
Paphlagonia was in Anatolia, not Turkmenistan. Maybe the objects found went from Anatolia to Turkmenistan.

Nobody1
30-11-13, 05:58
Turkmenistan

Hopefully they will also test some Venetic corpses from the Este-culture for direct comparison;


Are they west-asian or caucasian, maybe gedrosian...............which?

I dont know;
In 1300BC (Bronze-age) Adji Kui and other parts of Turkmenistan were already Indo-European (Bactria-Margiana/Andronovo); And the Veneti (their supposed descendants) spoke a centum Indo-European language so that corresponds perfectly;

It will be very interesting as to what these Bronze-age corpses from Turkmenistan turn out to be closest to;
Apart from Boattini 2013 NE Italy always had a much higher R1a rate than direct neighbour regions;

Sile
30-11-13, 06:31
Paphlagonia was in Anatolia, not Turkmenistan. Maybe the objects found went from Anatolia to Turkmenistan.

possibility, but that would have been mentioned, which it was not.

Turkmenistan, uzbekistan, tajikstan etc ......areas from caspian sea to Himalayas seems to be the epicenter of a lot of different haplogroups.............. and must have been also indo-european jump off point....i am unsure

Sile
30-11-13, 06:33
Hopefully they will also test some Venetic corpses from the Este-culture for direct comparison;





Hope so, but most skeletons in este culture where woman and children bones as men where cremated ..............they must have a few though

Vedun
30-05-14, 12:37
There is one typical Venetic word which remained until today in Slovene language; Raca (Ratsa instead of "patka" or "utka") or a "duck"... :)
Or for example cult of Belin ("Belenus")- "white one", or mountain Triglav or Trimužiad in Venetic ("3-men") and mythology about the "deceased people who live behind the Moon"

" The souls of the deceased Lobyanci* departed after death to the »other, next world«, which meant to either the dark or the bright side of the Moon (e.g., in popular saying to be »beyond the Moon«). The worshipped stellar body acquired the divine name, Reitija(also could be "Rodilja" or "Rodia" (Rod; Root; "genus"; woman who is giving a "birth"), apparently due to the functional similarity to the common tool of farmers, the "porasta" (with pores; holes) »rejta« (a riddle). According to the beliefs of the ancestors, the transfer of souls to the other world or vice versa was accomplished by the holy birds (big or small tice or ptice). The Moon or the holy Reitija reflected and spread the light during the night and hence was designated as shajnata (i.e., shining). With time the attribute »shajnat« was acquired by all who served this holy stellar body and which was where they could continue the post-mortem life. So along with the Shajnata Reitija, we know also of the existence of »Shajnato Trimozhje« and of »Shajnata Tica« (known in Slovenian ancient mythology also as Zhar Tica). All the deities important for life on this or the next world and designated as »shajnata« were worshiped by our ancient ancestors who donated and offered to them a ransom, called »toler«.

The religious life of the old Slavic Lobyanci, ancestors of the present inhabitants of Western Lower Carniola left numerous and rather richly preserved traces. We can easily recognize them by carefully studying our living habits, our toponyms and onomastics of our vocabulary, and by observing and verifying nature, and by experiments. All the religious names for the worshipped nature have an onomatopoetic origin and possess a profound Slovenian sonority. During the very long period of formation of our ethnicity, Western Lower Carniola was rather isolated, without too many foreign influences and with rather small immigration. This can be a clue as to why the Lower Carniolan dialects are so rich on the preserved traces and proofs of our pre-historic period. The linguistic proofs of our relic and autochthonous existence in Central Europe become even more persuasive if one compares them with the existing archeological facts. Both of these proofs are in excellent agreement with the inscriptions written by the ancient Veneti over two thousand years ago." Lobyanci* or Lobici (Lobjanci, Lobiki) is a very old name for the inhabitants of the Western Lower Carniola (Dolenjska) "

"mego dona.s.to ša.i./nate.i. re.i.tiia.i. pora.i. /"
(jaz (mene) donesti šajnati porasti rejti )
(I am bringing shining pores Reitia).

But my personal readings are different. I am reading "porai" as "porejeti" in Slovene as "(po)rejeno", reja; "farming", "breeding", "feeding (children)" or 2. option; "po-rai" ("to paradise").

6453

"Trumuzkatei toler hut.(or fiuto) t.o ?? vol tolariko u donom"

Trimožjadni (3-moški) toler ?? tolariti z darom ("tur" in Etruscan; donesti, donjeti, doto)

"3 men(Trimuziatei) ransom ... tolariko (probably a found, collection of a ransom - which was donated) in donation"

Sile
30-05-14, 13:12
There is one typical Venetic word which remained until today in Slovene language; Raca (Ratsa) or a "duck"... :)
Or for example cult of Belin ("Belenus")- "white one", or mountain Triglav or Trimužiad in Venetic ("3-men") and mythology about the "deceased people who live behind the Moon"

" The souls of the deceased Lobyanci* departed after death to the »other, next world«, which meant to either the dark or the bright side of the Moon (e.g., in popular saying to be »beyond the Moon«). The worshipped stellar body acquired the divine name, Reitija(also could be "Rodilja" or "Rodia" (Rod; Root; "genus"; woman who is giving a "birth"), apparently due to the functional similarity to the common tool of farmers, the "porasta" (with pores; holes) »rejta« (a riddle). According to the beliefs of the ancestors, the transfer of souls to the other world or vice versa was accomplished by the holy birds (big or small tice or ptice). The Moon or the holy Reitija reflected and spread the light during the night and hence was designated as shajnata (i.e., shining). With time the attribute »shajnat« was acquired by all who served this holy stellar body and which was where they could continue the post-mortem life. So along with the Shajnata Reitija, we know also of the existence of »Shajnato Trimozhje« and of »Shajnata Tica« (known in Slovenian ancient mythology also as Zhar Tica). All the deities important for life on this or the next world and designated as »shajnata« were worshiped by our ancient ancestors who donated and offered to them a ransom, called »toler«.

The religious life of the old Slavic Lobyanci, ancestors of the present inhabitants of Western Lower Carniola left numerous and rather richly preserved traces. We can easily recognize them by carefully studying our living habits, our toponyms and onomastics of our vocabulary, and by observing and verifying nature, and by experiments. All the religious names for the worshipped nature have an onomatopoetic origin and possess a profound Slovenian sonority. During the very long period of formation of our ethnicity, Western Lower Carniola was rather isolated, without too many foreign influences and with rather small immigration. This can be a clue as to why the Lower Carniolan dialects are so rich on the preserved traces and proofs of our pre-historic period. The linguistic proofs of our relic and autochthonous existence in Central Europe become even more persuasive if one compares them with the existing archeological facts. Both of these proofs are in excellent agreement with the inscriptions written by the ancient Veneti over two thousand years ago." Lobyanci* or Lobici (Lobjanci, Lobiki) is a very old name for the inhabitants of the Western Lower Carniola (Dolenjska) "

"mego dona.s.to ša.i./nate.i. re.i.tiia.i. pora.i. /"
(jaz (mene) donesti šajnati porasti rejti )
(I am bringing shining pores Reitia).

But my personal readings are different. I am reading "porai" as "porejeti" in Slovene as "(po)rejeno", reja; "farming", "breeding", "feeding (children)" or 2. option; "po-rai" ("to paradise").

6453

"Trumuzkatei toler hut.(or fiuto) t.o ?? vol tolariko u donom"

Trimožjadni (3-moški) toler ?? tolariti z darom (donesti)

"3 men(Trimuziatei) ransom ... tolariko (probably a found, collection of a ransom - which was donated) in donation"



since Archeology finds of the Venetic appear in abundance in Italy from 1150BC are you saying the slovenes where in Italy at that time?

Vedun
30-05-14, 16:08
No, SloVenes (Skolotoi+Ven) yet, but Venes(Veneti) were present, yes. At the coast with the Adriatic border there lived Latinized Vens or Veneti. But you could never prove to me that all words in so called Adriatic Venetic language belonged to only Latin diaspora.

This is another example of the early Slovene language in Karantania which still used "Venetic" type of letters; Duke's chair (there are actually 2 of them; on other one are inscriptions in Slovene; "Sveti Veri" or "Holy faith" with "punctation" between several words- like was used in the Venetic language which was officially used until 1. c. "AD" )

6454

The famous "Sedes Tribunalis" (Tribunal seat); or "Sudonig Uhduk" (Sodnik Hudega (judge of the crime) in Slovene today)... The letter N and Y seems to drive similarities with Venetic alphabet; Y as "G". That's why some people speculate the chair was already made in times of Noricum.

Nobody1
30-05-14, 16:56
since Archeology finds of the Venetic appear in abundance in Italy from 1150BC are you saying the slovenes where in Italy at that time?

If we consider the Veneti to be Illyrians (Italic/Keltic influence) centum Indo-Europeans akin to the Genauni/Breuni (linguistically attested) also Iapodes and Liburni than the Veneti and their kins are a much broader Alpine and Adriatic group;

The Iron-age cultures (Este and Krainer Hallstatt) all emerged from the Bronze-age Urnfield and thus show many similarities (the Situlae groups) and influences between each other;
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/a/img404/6195/greekbalkanscontactfc5.jpg

The Carni and Norici/Taurisci are however clearly described as Keltic which is manifested also by the deity Belenus which dedication inscriptions/shrines (Weihinschriften) was mostly found in Carni territory and Noricum;

Vedun
16-06-14, 21:44
The second name of Veneti was "Trojans" which derives from the term TOROI, which means "Torus, T(o)renje, roTation (inverted lingual root TR; RT), пов-Tорно, пов-Tорение, в-торник ("2nd"), "again, second, cyclic, rotational...)
The original term for Trojan (Paflagonian) Venetic city was VILUŠA (VILUSHA; "WHEEL-LUSHA"; The WHEEL (Torus) like city.

http://shrani.si/f/1Y/9O/46eY4zds/troy1.jpg



Etruscans often called themselves as "descendants of Trojan people". Their 3rd name was "Danav" (Also a name of rivers; Danube /Donava, Don, Dnieper, Dniester....), named after goddess Dana or Danica (or Zorya; "star") or Danu or Sara-Swati (this is Zorya Sveta; "Holy dawn"), which was mostly described as a white bird, a swan(Cygnus)...The famous "people from Don" (Dan) - coming from areas around Black sea, spreading into Anatolia, Egypt,... and from there pushed into the north, where they were establishing colonies (cities) for protection...
http://shrani.si/f/2H/J6/4kLoVdDM/etr.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/1G/pM/2VN1thMk/etruscan1.jpg (http://shrani.si/f/1G/pM/2VN1thMk/etruscan1.jpg)

Etruscan inscription, "Tepharei" (Tevarey) Velianaz (Velianash (Viliunash; Viluash(Veliaz) " or Tefarei the Trojan in the Pyrgi tablets... From Toroi came the name of the "Tyrrhenian Sea" (Trojan (eTRuscan - Venetic sea)...
http://shrani.si/f/M/LF/25CHxpP0/tefarei-velianazh.jpg

Beautiful Trojan Helena in the Achean captivity... (this was also the whole point about the war for Trojan (Venetic) "Ilios" (Vilusha). Trojans wanted to secure their ancestry (women). That's why they have built a rounded city which was almost inaccessible. Second purpose of Tryo was meant to be a Calendar built on the ground, which they have inherited from their ancient ancestry...

http://shrani.si/f/A/lB/31AVoNvB/helena3.jpg

(does this photo above remind you on somebody today, Ukraine?)

Arkaim (also compare with the city of Arkona) on the same geographical latitude as Stonehenge) as the fingerprint of the later city of Troy...


6493

Sile
16-06-14, 22:16
The second name of Veneti was "Trojans" which derives from the term TOROI, which means "Torus, T(o)renje, roTation (inverted lingual root TR; RT), пов-Tорно, пов-Tорение, в-торник ("2nd"), "again, second, cyclic, rotational...)
The original term for Trojan (Paflagonian) Venetic city was VILUŠA (VILUSHA; "WHEEL-LUSHA"; The WHEEL (Torus) like city.

http://shrani.si/f/1Y/9O/46eY4zds/troy1.jpg



Etruscans often called themselves as "descendants of Trojan people".
http://shrani.si/f/2H/J6/4kLoVdDM/etr.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/1G/pM/2VN1thMk/etruscan1.jpg (http://shrani.si/f/1G/pM/2VN1thMk/etruscan1.jpg)

Beautiful Trojan Helena in the captivity... (this was also the whole point about the war for Trojan (Venetic) "Ilios" (Vilusha). Trojans wanted to secure their ancestry (women). That's why they have built a rounded city which was almost inaccessible. Second purpose of Tryo was meant to be a Calendar built on the ground, which they have inherited from their ancient ancestry...

http://shrani.si/f/A/lB/31AVoNvB/helena3.jpg

(does this photo above remind you on somebody today, Ukraine?)

Arkaim (also compare with the city of Arkona) on the same geographical latitude as Stonehenge) as the fingerprint of later city of Troy...


6493

Kobar
, may be hid-den in the name of the Slovene town Kobarid near
Italian border, which, judging by archaeological re-mains, was a cult place. Among other finds from the
Iron Age and the Hallstatt and Roman periods, the region of Kobarid treasures several offering plates
with Venetic inscriptions [15]. This fact indicates that the Venetes, with their presumed homeland in Anatolia
[16], may have worshipped the memory of Cybele and called their centre after her, altering the Phrygian
name. The Italian variant of this town’s name,Caporetto still bears some likeness, while German
Karfreit and Friulian Gaurêt do not. Moreover, the name of the metal
kobalt is derived from kobold , the name of a family spirit (brownie, “good fellow”) in
the German mythology since 13th c. AD. Its name may be easily associated with *
kobol , a variant of Cybele’s name, at the time when Germanic tribes got
acquainted with Venetic gods. A kind of evil spirit was called khobolos
in ancient Greece [17: s.v.el 27], possibly from the same source as
kobol , and a group of chthonic Greek deities, based on Hittite, Thracian,
Proto-Etruscan and Phrygian beliefs, were called kabeiroi
, whose Dossin name connected with Sumerian kabar ‘copper’.

or maybe even Norway

http://norik.net/PDF/ENGLISH%20SUMARY.pdf



and what about where the words came from
http://ladysbase.com/stream/Indogermanisches-Etymologisches-Woerterbuch/J._Pokorny_Indogermanisches_etymologisches_Wb_djvu .txt

Vedun
16-06-14, 23:59
"Kibela" derives from the older version of Sumerian Kubaba, Kubeba (the "Kuvava" in betatism) which contains the root "Baba", "older woman(mother, grand mother)", still used in Slavic languages, like was used also among Luwian and Lydian, Phrygian speakers in Anatolia. Slavic & Lithuanian readers will understand this word as Zemla, Zeme, Žemė or Zemlja, which means "Earth", the Etruscan (Trojan) form was Semele (Zemele). Kibela is a Latin and Greek version for Zemla or Semele.
Semele (Zemla) was a goddess of fertility and rebirth, an "earthly; gaia" goddess... It was related to the Patala (पाताल) Padova, "underworld" and "rebirth"...

Etruscan "Semele" (Zemla), from the right side

http://www.veneti.info/images/stories/clanki/kebe/zemla_troja/ogedalo.png
Apulu (Apollo) in the middle/second one from the right side; Apullu derives from Etruscan term "Starry, shining" (pulu-mxva), this means "paliti" in several Slavic languages or musPEL in old German (mus-PEL-heim (home))...
Second one from the left side is Fufluns ("Bacchus")... In Slovene dialects remained the term "Fuflunit" which means to "chatter", "over react" (also in food); "faflunit"...

piero
10-11-14, 12:49
Z280 Balto-slavic haplogroup is present in Veneto region (Italy), also its subclade CTS3402 - strictly Balto-slavic - is present in Veneto. We can argue a connection between Baltic region and Italian Veneto in ancient time (probably from Late Bronze age).
So the question about: is CTS3402, along with other sons of CTS1211, expanded in the Lusatian culture?

arvistro
10-12-14, 00:24
Hi Piero,

There is this lovely map.
http://f6.s.qip.ru/LHJwjnQR.png

With hotspots in ancient areas of Balt forest cultures, South Baltic region (Venedi), Brittany (Veneti Gaulic) and some traces to Italy (Venice) and other traces via Rumania (Dacia) on the way to Greeks. But I know only that this map is from molgen forum Russian version created by Semargl, dated 10-02-2014. They actually call this cluster on their forum veneti. I don't know though what this map is based on, apparently on modern frequencies of Z92+.

Seems suspiciously similar to where Venets were found, also amber trade routes. See also their frequency next to Finns/Estonians who still call Russia Venemaa/Venaja.

On other hand, I noticed the person who opened thread could find a similar map but claiming it for I2 :) So, could be false track.

Sile
10-12-14, 07:09
Hi Piero,

There is this lovely map.
http://f6.s.qip.ru/LHJwjnQR.png

With hotspots in ancient areas of Balt forest cultures, South Baltic region (Venedi), Brittany (Veneti Gaulic) and some traces to Italy (Venice) and other traces via Rumania (Dacia) on the way to Greeks. But I know only that this map is from molgen forum Russian version created by Semargl, dated 10-02-2014. They actually call this cluster on their forum veneti. I don't know though what this map is based on, apparently on modern frequencies of Z92+.

Seems suspiciously similar to where Venets were found, also amber trade routes. See also their frequency next to Finns/Estonians who still call Russia Venemaa/Venaja.

On other hand, I noticed the person who opened thread could find a similar map but claiming it for I2 :) So, could be false track.

your scenario will only work if the veneti came from the baltic and took over the italian area from the indigenous bronze-age owners the Euganei

then again, if this happened , then why do we not see these markers you state all the way down the adriatic coast, in greece in crete and in the levant......venetians ruled these areas between 500 to 1100 years

arvistro
10-12-14, 08:28
I dont know Venetian history that well. When they were Venets amber traders and when they became Venetians Italians and what happened in between.

arvistro
10-12-14, 08:34
Although you may be right, maybe age of that cluster alone excludes such possibility. And this light green trace arrived to Italy later.
On other hand its migrations dont seem to link with Slavs, via Rumania/Dacia is the main route, leaving nothing in South Slavic countries, except for the light green trace to Venetia via Slovenia.

Sile
10-12-14, 20:05
Although you may be right, maybe age of that cluster alone excludes such possibility. And this light green trace arrived to Italy later.
On other hand its migrations dont seem to link with Slavs, via Rumania/Dacia is the main route, leaving nothing in South Slavic countries, except for the light green trace to Venetia via Slovenia.

I do not exclude a link between aestii/venedi amber trail from baltic sea to adriatic sea as this is dated from at least 2000BC. but the marker cannot be east-slavic at that time........since aestii are noted as lithuanians and latvians, then the marker is more ancient baltic. Gimbutus stated the baltic people where numerous in the bronze-age covering much of modern poland , belaruss

piero has a book on this study which includes the brittany veneti

arvistro
10-12-14, 21:32
In modern times most of this marker is in Slavic populations. Most of their direct descendents are (East) Slavs now. But I agree that greenest parts are usually seen as Baltic cultural areas of 5-6th century. Except Pskov culture near Estonia/Finland which is believed Slavic.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/07/East_europe_5-6cc.png

As a compromise I would call that marker one of Archaic Euro Satem lines, seeing that there is some of it left in Dacia as well. And apparently whether Veneti was Celtic originally or not they picked up some of Baltic genetic material during their active amber interactions. And Celtic Veneti tribe later took it to Bretton. If this hotspot is not simply noise :)

MOESAN
11-12-14, 20:14
Hi Piero,

There is this lovely map.
http://f6.s.qip.ru/LHJwjnQR.png

With hotspots in ancient areas of Balt forest cultures, South Baltic region (Venedi), Brittany (Veneti Gaulic) and some traces to Italy (Venice) and other traces via Rumania (Dacia) on the way to Greeks. But I know only that this map is from molgen forum Russian version created by Semargl, dated 10-02-2014. They actually call this cluster on their forum veneti. I don't know though what this map is based on, apparently on modern frequencies of Z92+.

Seems suspiciously similar to where Venets were found, also amber trade routes. See also their frequency next to Finns/Estonians who still call Russia Venemaa/Venaja.

On other hand, I noticed the person who opened thread could find a similar map but claiming it for I2 :) So, could be false track.


I suppose you are speaking about Y-R1a: is this map you kindly provides us the within %age of Z92 in R1a or an absolute %age? because Brittany is very very poor for Y-R1a: some SW regions of Britain have a bit (Cornwall, Gloucester maybe, but thet could be the result of Vikings NOT of ancient veneti, and all the way they stay very low a sa whole - this map seems very unbased

MOESAN
11-12-14, 20:20
other supposition: the name Veneti is found in three places far one from another - I have not the dates of first apparition of the name in the diverse regions, but could it not be linked to the Urnfields expansion, from where Lusace was a station? that said, it doesn't link too tightly Veneti to Slavs if it's right that the Urnfield phenomenon appeared firstable in central Europe (Bohemia, from Donau river? -(proto-Illyrians?) - and Y-R1b-U152 is not a typical slavic marker I think -

piero
11-12-14, 21:05
Hi Piero,

There is this lovely map.
http://f6.s.qip.ru/LHJwjnQR.png

With hotspots in ancient areas of Balt forest cultures, South Baltic region (Venedi), Brittany (Veneti Gaulic) and some traces to Italy (Venice) and other traces via Rumania (Dacia) on the way to Greeks. But I know only that this map is from molgen forum Russian version created by Semargl, dated 10-02-2014. They actually call this cluster on their forum veneti. I don't know though what this map is based on, apparently on modern frequencies of Z92+.

Seems suspiciously similar to where Venets were found, also amber trade routes. See also their frequency next to Finns/Estonians who still call Russia Venemaa/Venaja.

On other hand, I noticed the person who opened thread could find a similar map but claiming it for I2 :) So, could be false track.

Arvistro I'm so happy and so grateful to you :grin::grin::grin:. This is a kind of map I was long time looking for. I guess it is about a R1a1a and its Subclade Z92 (as you can see in this map: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results). It matches both Brittany and Poland amber way Veneti, also Latvian Veneti - as you know Henricus de Lettis wrote about Latvian Venedi still in Medieval time. It matches also Ukrainan Venedy along the oldest Amber way - that is the Ponto-baltic amber way -. I agree Veneti come down from Baltic region to Adriatic region being traders also along the newest Amber way. We can find only a slight color in Adriatic region - probably due to a little genetic expression - but there is evidence that the center of this spot is in Venice region.

So the problem is now to know if Subclade Z92 can be matched with Lusatian culture (1300 - 500 b. C.). Anybody knows Z93 time?

My book subtitled From Baltic to Brittany: http://www.libreriauniversitaria.it/dea-veneta-baltico-bretagna-favero/libro/9788895351131

arvistro
12-12-14, 10:00
I suppose you are speaking about Y-R1a: is this map you kindly provides us the within %age of Z92 in R1a or an absolute %age? because Brittany is very very poor for Y-R1a: some SW regions of Britain have a bit (Cornwall, Gloucester maybe, but thet could be the result of Vikings NOT of ancient veneti, and all the way they stay very low a sa whole - this map seems very unbased

I meant French Bretton. Actually in familytreedna map for same subclade it does not show anything in that region. So, I don't know.
From what little I know Veneti indeed may be not related to Balts as tribal group, but if Veneti did their fair share of amber trading, then maybe few Baltic coast boys also joined their amber business and spread their seed along the amber ways, the trace that is very light today, 2000 years after.

I don't know, need to check in molgen forum about what this map is based for. It is about modern frequencies or distribution, but is it based on commercial testing or what else is unknown to me.

arvistro
12-12-14, 10:17
Arvistro I'm so happy and so grateful to you :grin::grin::grin:. This is a kind of map I was long time looking for. I guess it is about a R1a1a and its Subclade Z92 (as you can see in this map: https://www.familytreedna.com/public/r1a/default.aspx?section=results). It matches both Brittany and Poland amber way Veneti, also Latvian Veneti - as you know Henricus de Lettis wrote about Latvian Venedi still in Medieval time. It matches also Ukrainan Venedy along the oldest Amber way - that is the Ponto-baltic amber way -. I agree Veneti come down from Baltic region to Adriatic region being traders also along the newest Amber way. We can find only a slight color in Adriatic region - probably due to a little genetic expression - but there is evidence that the center of this spot is in Venice region.

So the problem is now to know if Subclade Z92 can be matched with Lusatian culture (1300 - 500 b. C.). Anybody knows Z93 time?

My book subtitled From Baltic to Brittany: http://www.libreriauniversitaria.it/dea-veneta-baltico-bretagna-favero/libro/9788895351131
Nice book, is it only in Italian? :)
I enjoy history in its romantic story-telling form. Just based by the cover and first letters it seems that it is rather a romantic/mythological story of Venets based on some historical traces. I hope it among others books also inspires mainstream history to do more research in that direction.
About Latvian Venti/Vendi or Polish/East Germanic Windisches in German sources. Apparently those were the last Balto-Slavic tribes to self-identify with this ethnonime (I think Vjatichi in Russia is related, but need pro-linguist to check on that, Vjatichi probably were spelled as Ventichi as well, before Slavic nasalisation sound changes happened).
Probably it is all that was left after Roman Empire their main export market collapsed, climate in 5th century gradually worsened, then climate catastrophy of 536 year and massive depopulation accross Europe in 6th century.

p.s.
Another romantic/historical story about 6th-9th centuries is the loss of -s/-z at the endings for boys names accross whole Europe after 500 AD. Only Balts in Baltics and Greeks in Byzantium kept that grammar form which was attested in both proto-Norse rune stones (-az), Gothic language (-s), Latin (-us) of course before 500, but got lost after. I have a thread on this under linguistics section in eupedia, where I tried to track and date this phenomenon.

piero
12-12-14, 11:32
Nice book, is it only in Italian? :)
I enjoy history in its romantic story-telling form. Just based by the cover and first letters it seems that it is rather a romantic/mythological story of Venets based on some historical traces. I hope it among others books also inspires mainstream history to do more research in that direction.
About Latvian Venti/Vendi or Polish/East Germanic Windisches in German sources. Apparently those were the last Balto-Slavic tribes to self-identify with this ethnonime (I think Vjatichi in Russia is related, but need pro-linguist to check on that, Vjatichi probably were spelled as Ventichi as well, before Slavic nasalisation sound changes happened).
Probably it is all that was left after Roman Empire their main export market collapsed, climate in 5th century gradually worsened, then climate catastrophy of 536 year and massive depopulation accross Europe in 6th century.

p.s.
Another romantic/historical story about 6th-9th centuries is the loss of -s/-z at the endings for boys names accross whole Europe after 500 AD. Only Balts in Baltics and Greeks in Byzantium kept that grammar form which was attested in both proto-Norse rune stones (-az), Gothic language (-s), Latin (-us) of course before 500, but got lost after. I have a thread on this under linguistics section in eupedia, where I tried to track and date this phenomenon.
Yes, my book is an anthropological work, I think genetists researchers for haplogroups need to work in staff with people like historians ad anthropologist. Sorry my book is only in Italian, but there are many interesting maps and images, also there is an international bibliography of nine pages. Unfortunately Z92 is more ancient that the time of Lusatian culture, we need to know if some of its subclades can match the time between 1300 b.C and 500 b.C. (Lusatian culture time).

Taranis
12-12-14, 19:21
Yes, my book is an anthropological work, I think genetists researchers for haplogroups need to work in staff with people like historians ad anthropologist. Sorry my book is only in Italian, but there are many interesting maps and images, also there is an international bibliography of nine pages. Unfortunately Z92 is more ancient that the time of Lusatian culture, we need to know if some of its subclades can match the time between 1300 b.C and 500 b.C. (Lusatian culture time).

Sorry, I will stand by what I claimed like three and a half years ago, earlier in this thread: the idea that the Veneti of Gaul, the Adriatic Veneti and the Baltic Venedi have something in common (other than the broad fact that all three were speakers of Indo-European languages) is just absurd from a linguistic perspective. I'm sorry to dismiss you like that, but the evidence here is uncontestable. The Adriatic Venetic language is attested from inscriptions (written in a variant of the Etruscan alphabet), and its clear that this was an Indo-European language closely affiliated with the Italic languages (including the common sound change of initial *bh-, *dh-, *gh- yielding *f-, *f-, *h-). The Gaulish Veneti were beyond a question speakers of Gaulish: their language is attested from place names (Vannes, their main town, was called "Darioritum", and the element "-ritum" is a cognate with Welsh "rhyd", meaning 'ford'), and personal names (such as "Atepomarus"), while the Baltic Venedi were probably either Baltic (Venedic tribes such as the Galindians and the Sudovians inhabited the area around 1000 years later, and they are attested then to be Balts), or at this time still undifferentiated Proto-Balto-Slavic.

I honestly am entirely clueless why this discussion keeps coming up, because from a linguistic perspective the matter is firmly settled.

Sile
12-12-14, 19:37
I honestly am entirely clueless why this discussion keeps coming up, because from a linguistic perspective the matter is firmly settled.

because modern races with no ancient history try to absorb an extinct race as their own ..............gauranteed system in their minds that they have been there since the beginning of man

bosnians and albainians claim illyrian
slovenians claim venetic
poles claim prussians and venedi
greeks claim odyssians
swedes claim goths
etc etc

piero
12-12-14, 20:43
Sorry, I will stand by what I claimed like three and a half years ago, earlier in this thread: the idea that the Veneti of Gaul, the Adriatic Veneti and the Baltic Venedi have something in common (other than the broad fact that all three were speakers of Indo-European languages) is just absurd from a linguistic perspective. I'm sorry to dismiss you like that, but the evidence here is uncontestable. The Adriatic Venetic language is attested from inscriptions (written in a variant of the Etruscan alphabet), and its clear that this was an Indo-European language closely affiliated with the Italic languages (including the common sound change of initial *bh-, *dh-, *gh- yielding *f-, *f-, *h-). The Gaulish Veneti were beyond a question speakers of Gaulish: their language is attested from place names (Vannes, their main town, was called "Darioritum", and the element "-ritum" is a cognate with Welsh "rhyd", meaning 'ford'), and personal names (such as "Atepomarus"), while the Baltic Venedi were probably either Baltic (Venedic tribes such as the Galindians and the Sudovians inhabited the area around 1000 years later, and they are attested then to be Balts), or at this time still undifferentiated Proto-Balto-Slavic.

I honestly am entirely clueless why this discussion keeps coming up, because from a linguistic perspective the matter is firmly settled.

Well, the question is not settled at all, it is an OPEN question. I think you need to read the recent linguistic studies results of your own country in Heidelberg University: Jadranka Gvozdanovic points attention to the common language substrate of ancient Brittany Veneti, Adriatic Veneti and Baltic people. Her book "Celtic and Slavic and the Great Migrations: Reconstructing Linguistic Prehistory" had a prize for the best book in the matter (http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/de/aktuelles/nachrichten/detail/m/book-by-jadranka-gvozdanovic-was-awarded-as-best-book-in-slavic-linguistics.html). The summary is in the article: http://www.jolr.ru/files/(83)jlr2012-7(33-46).pdf

arvistro
12-12-14, 20:47
I understand at some point all of them spoke different languages, but does it necessarily mean they were never related?

joeyc
12-12-14, 21:49
Veneti was an exonym. We don't really know how they called themselves.

arvistro
12-12-14, 22:23
Well, the question is not settled at all, it is an OPEN question. I think you need to read the recent linguistic studies results of your own country in Heidelberg University: Jadranka Gvozdanovic points attention to the common language substrate of ancient Brittany Veneti, Adriatic Veneti and Baltic people. Her book "Celtic and Slavic and the Great Migrations: Reconstructing Linguistic Prehistory" had a prize for the best book in the matter (http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/de/aktuelles/nachrichten/detail/m/book-by-jadranka-gvozdanovic-was-awarded-as-best-book-in-slavic-linguistics.html). The summary is in the article: http://www.jolr.ru/files/(83)jlr2012-7(33-46).pdf
Interesting study. If I understand correctly author believes Veneti spoke a very specific Celtic, which got somewhat mixed with Latin near Adriatic, which features were preserved in Vene-something dialect of Bretons and very same features of this substrate were responsible for multiple changes in Slavic in/after migration period.
I don't have knowledge to dispute her findings, but definately an intriguing theory.

In simple man (mine) words her theory looks like linguistically Slavs = Balt(oSlav)s + Venetic Celtic substrate (?) induced changes
Adriatic Venets = Venetic Celtic + some Latin features

Sile
12-12-14, 22:43
Interesting study. If I understand correctly author believes Veneti spoke a very specific Celtic, which got somewhat mixed with Latin near Adriatic, which features were preserved in Vene-something dialect of Bretons and very same features of this substrate were responsible for multiple changes in Slavic in/after migration period.
I don't have knowledge to dispute her findings, but definately an intriguing theory.

In simple man (mine) words her theory looks like linguistically Slavs = Balt(oSlav)s + Venetic Celtic substrate (?) induced changes
Adriatic Venets = Venetic Celtic + some Latin features

IIRC, she has a map of the isoglosses borders which is the Slovene/slavic advancement into or near the adriatic

Taranis
12-12-14, 23:15
I understand at some point all of them spoke different languages, but does it necessarily mean they were never related?

I don't think that they were (closely) related beyond being speakers of Indo-European languages.

To me, the debate, amongst both amateurs and published professionals, is that they have the foregone conclusion that because the various "Veneti" have a superifically similar name, they must be related. If you approach this in the reverse direction, that is, you look at the evidence you have about the respective languages (which, as I said, clearly exists), the idea that they might be closely related doesn't even come up as a possibility.


Well, the question is not settled at all, it is an OPEN question. I think you need to read the recent linguistic studies results of your own country in Heidelberg University: Jadranka Gvozdanovic points attention to the common language substrate of ancient Brittany Veneti, Adriatic Veneti and Baltic people. Her book "Celtic and Slavic and the Great Migrations: Reconstructing Linguistic Prehistory" had a prize for the best book in the matter (http://www.asia-europe.uni-heidelberg.de/de/aktuelles/nachrichten/detail/m/book-by-jadranka-gvozdanovic-was-awarded-as-best-book-in-slavic-linguistics.html). The summary is in the article: http://www.jolr.ru/files/(83)jlr2012-7(33-46).pdf

Yes, I've read Gvozdanovic's paper and I can't say he convinced me, rather the opposite. In some cases, there's also clear errors:


Venetic teu.ta ‘people’ lacks parallels in Latin, Slavic and Greek (cf. Beeler 1981: 67), but has a clear Gaulish correlate in teuta, touta ‘tribe, people’ (cf. Delamarre 2003: 295).

I really don't know what he wants to prove with this, because in addition to the Celtic languages (Gaulish "touto-", Irish "tuath", Welsh "tud"), and Germanic (German "Deutsch"), there's also the Baltic languages, as Latvian and Lithuanian both have "tauta" (thereby suggesting the word was to be found in Proto-Balto-Slavic, thereby rendering Gvozdanovic's statement about Slavic irrelevant). Amongst the Italic language, the word is found (as "tribe" or "people") in Oscan ("touto") and Umbrian ("tōta"), and even Latin has a cognate, although with a different meaning ("totus" - meaning 'all' or 'whole'), as do have the modern Romance languages (French "tout", Spanish "todo") - and here we must assume that the change of meaning from "tribe" to "all"/"whole" was something that occured specifically in Latin, not in Proto-Italic. As there's also an attestation of the word in Anatolian (in Hittite as "tuzzi"), so the only thing that we can demonstrate here is that Venetic is an Indo-European language and that it is not closer related with Latin... big news indeed.

Basically, about Adriatic Venetic, the Proto-Italic features that Venetic shares are degraded to areal features, while the Celtic features that Venetic lacks (for example, the key Celtic development Indo-European *p > Ø) are ignored.

What I found hair-raising was the idea that some features in the modern Vannes dialect of modern Breton are supposed to be derived from the language Gaulish Veneti, without looking at the evidence that there is of Gaulish amongst the Veneti. That's a stretch to me. Further, the idea that the Proto-Slavic sound changes from Balto-Slavic were induced by this (Baltic Venedic) substrate are implausible to me. Although its popular (as in, there's other board members who would agree on the mechanism with Gvozdanovic), I find the whole idea that somehow all or most sound-changes are substrate-driven to quite unconvincing: in the case of Common Slavic, the key substrate languages during the Migration period were mainly Romance (on the Balkans) and Germanic (especially in Central Europe), and their phonologies were in no way to blamable for the sound changes in Common Slavic... so, no.

What I might add, where I do agree, which other authors have noted before (notably already Pokorny) as a peculiar point about Adriatic Venetic are the features it shares with Germanic, but that's entirely unrelated of this question here.

MOESAN
13-12-14, 00:07
Interesting study. If I understand correctly author believes Veneti spoke a very specific Celtic, which got somewhat mixed with Latin near Adriatic, which features were preserved in Vene-something dialect of Bretons and very same features of this substrate were responsible for multiple changes in Slavic in/after migration period.
I don't have knowledge to dispute her findings, but definately an intriguing theory.

In simple man (mine) words her theory looks like linguistically Slavs = Balt(oSlav)s + Venetic Celtic substrate (?) induced changes
Adriatic Venets = Venetic Celtic + some Latin features


I agree with Taranis concerning language(S) even if the first name bearers can have in some place taken the language of their conquered people (it is still to prove, anyway) -
Veneti an exonyme; who tells that???
+
I red the linguistic study and i'm not convinced, too many hypothesis - even the question of palatalization in modern gwenedeg.vannetais breton dialect in superficially treated: no G to Z evolution in vannetais dialect, no K to S or TS evolution, only some /c/"tch" and /J/ "dj" in some positions - and the links made with celtic in N-E Italy venetci language are very weak - Veneti of today Brittany are by far less palatalizing than oil french speakers! (vannetais is my second daily language)
My allusion to the Urnfields period was just a kind of concession to open discussion -I made allusion to Y-R1b-U152 (nothing at first sight to do with Y-R1a) because this HG seems partly linked in W-Poland to Urnfield period and at the same to Osco-Umbrians and Villanova culture...

Sile
13-12-14, 00:37
I don't think that they were (closely) related beyond being speakers of Indo-European languages.

To me, the debate, amongst both amateurs and published professionals, is that they have the foregone conclusion that because the various "Veneti" have a superifically similar name, they must be related. If you approach this in the reverse direction, that is, you look at the evidence you have about the respective languages (which, as I said, clearly exists), the idea that they might be closely related doesn't even come up as a possibility.



Yes, I've read Gvozdanovic's paper and I can't say he convinced me, rather the opposite. In some cases, there's also clear errors:



I really don't know what he wants to prove with this, because in addition to the Celtic languages (Gaulish "touto-", Irish "tuath", Welsh "tud"), and Germanic (German "Deutsch"), there's also the Baltic languages, as Latvian and Lithuanian both have "tauta" (thereby suggesting the word was to be found in Proto-Balto-Slavic, thereby rendering Gvozdanovic's statement about Slavic irrelevant). Amongst the Italic language, the word is found (as "tribe" or "people") in Oscan ("touto") and Umbrian ("tōta"), and even Latin has a cognate, although with a different meaning ("totus" - meaning 'all' or 'whole'), as do have the modern Romance languages (French "tout", Spanish "todo") - and here we must assume that the change of meaning from "tribe" to "all"/"whole" was something that occured specifically in Latin, not in Proto-Italic. As there's also an attestation of the word in Anatolian (in Hittite as "tuzzi"), so the only thing that we can demonstrate here is that Venetic is an Indo-European language and that it is not closer related with Latin... big news indeed.

Basically, about Adriatic Venetic, the Proto-Italic features that Venetic shares are degraded to areal features, while the Celtic features that Venetic lacks (for example, the key Celtic development Indo-European *p > Ø) are ignored.

What I found hair-raising was the idea that some features in the modern Vannes dialect of modern Breton are supposed to be derived from the language Gaulish Veneti, without looking at the evidence that there is of Gaulish amongst the Veneti. That's a stretch to me. Further, the idea that the Proto-Slavic sound changes from Balto-Slavic were induced by this (Baltic Venedic) substrate are implausible to me. Although its popular (as in, there's other board members who would agree on the mechanism with Gvozdanovic), I find the whole idea that somehow all or most sound-changes are substrate-driven to quite unconvincing: in the case of Common Slavic, the key substrate languages during the Migration period were mainly Romance (on the Balkans) and Germanic (especially in Central Europe), and their phonologies were in no way to blamable for the sound changes in Common Slavic... so, no.

What I might add, where I do agree, which other authors have noted before (notably already Pokorny) as a peculiar point about Adriatic Venetic are the features it shares with Germanic, but that's entirely unrelated of this question here.

first I agree with most of what you say including the last sentence, .............but the migrating veneti ( wherever they where from )who arrived in north-East italy in the year ~1150BC did not bring a language with them, they absorbed the language of the indigenous Euganei people and their script ( camunic is a branch of euganei script) . This language was based on Arcaic Gaulish and Raetic it would already have some illyric and umbro additions added as they where neighbours..........over time it was introduced to celtic and lastly to latin.

Sile
13-12-14, 00:40
I agree with Taranis concerning language(S) even if the first name bearers can have in some place taken the language of their conquered people (it is still to prove, anyway) -
Veneti an exonyme; who tells that???
+
I red the linguistic study and i'm not convinced, too many hypothesis - even the question of palatalization in modern gwenedeg.vannetais breton dialect in superficially treated: no G to Z evolution in vannetais dialect, no K to S or TS evolution, only some /c/"tch" and /J/ "dj" in some positions - and the links made with celtic in N-E Italy venetci language are very weak - Veneti of today Brittany are by far less palatalizing than oil french speakers! (vannetais is my second daily language)
My allusion to the Urnfields period was just a kind of concession to open discussion -I made allusion to Y-R1b-U152 (nothing at first sight to do with Y-R1a) because this HG seems partly linked in W-Poland to Urnfield period and at the same to Osco-Umbrians and Villanova culture...


"modern" venet from circa 780AD had a reverse of what you state, it had a X which went to a Z which ended up as S ........and it always retain the K

piero
13-12-14, 09:46
69376938
Well, I think that this two maps can speak by them self. The big problem to me is timeline because R1a Z92 don't match with Lusatian culture, being more ancient (around 2500 b. C. I guess). Can so old clade remain so long in the maps?

Taranis
13-12-14, 15:05
69376938
Well, I think that this two maps can speak by them self. The big problem to me is timeline because R1a Z92 don't match with Lusatian culture, being more ancient (around 2500 b. C. I guess). Can so old clade remain so long in the maps?

No offense, but you're seriously shooting yourself into the foot there:
- the Vindelici are etymologically unrelated, stemming from the Celtic word for "white", compare it with Irish "fionn" and Welsh "gwyn".
- the same goes for the name "Slovenes". The name comes from the Slavic word for 'to speak', and its indeed etymologically related with the word "Slav".
- on top of that the map is anachronistic, because the medieval Wends (this one clearly was an exonym) were overtly newcomers. In the Antiquity, that region was inhabited by Germanic tribes, such as the Langobards and the Suebi.

Diviacus
13-12-14, 16:00
the Vindelici are etymologically unrelated, stemming from the Celtic word for "white", compare it with Irish "fionn" and Welsh "gwyn".
There is an article from J.Loicq Sur les peuples de nom "Vénète" ou assimilé dans l'occident européen, dans Etudes celtiques (2003) which gives 19 peoples names with the same root (obviously, it doesn't quote the Vindelici for the reason you explained). He thinks that some of them are related, but he excludes the possibility hat the Armorican Veneti and the Venelli could be related to the other ones.

arvistro
13-12-14, 16:35
@piero,
Maybe you know - was there anything linking any of Venets to ducks?

Edit:
I will explain my question. Basically I was hunting down Antae ethnonime and found that in Lithuanian antis is duck (Latvian is very different - pīle). And wiktionary says that antis etimology is derived from proto-IE ennet/aennet (with common cognates in Germanic with root enned, etc).
Antes and Sclavenes were linked to Baltic Venets/Veneds by at least some sources.
Up to now I only found random reference of "spiritual revolution" in late bronze age/early iron age, appearing as multiple waterbird symbol finds.

Sile
13-12-14, 18:07
There is an article from J.Loicq Sur les peuples de nom "Vénète" ou assimilé dans l'occident européen, dans Etudes celtiques (2003) which gives 19 peoples names with the same root (obviously, it doesn't quote the Vindelici for the reason you explained). He thinks that some of them are related, but he excludes the possibility hat the Armorican Veneti and the Venelli could be related to the other ones.

in ancient times the Venelli was written as Uenelli and the resided on th epeninsula where modern cherbourg is..................they are said to have originated from the baltic sea area.

Diviacus
13-12-14, 19:31
In the article from J.Loicq previously referenced, the author explains that it most probably would have been Venelli before Unelli (or Vnelli).
Just for information, what is the source of them coming from the Baltic sea? (J.Loicq says, with considerable uncertainty, they could have been Belgae)

MOESAN
14-12-14, 01:12
"modern" venet from circa 780AD had a reverse of what you state, it had a X which went to a Z which ended up as S ........and it always retain the K

??? What is your arguments here???
I spoke about breton vannetais: the only known celtic language (of today, of course because we know almost nothing of the ancient venetic of gaul) of the Armorican territory of ancient Veneti is 'brezhoneg gwenedeg' of "breton vannetais" - it is not gallic or gaulish, it 's for the most an insular brittonic language - it retained surely some gaulish words but this two languages were very close qat this time - but its phonetic evolution, halfway between insular and french tendancies, is clearly based on a substratum common with other french regions, and noesn' t need a peculiar "venetic" umput different from the rest of gallic dialects -
concerning YOUR venetic of Middle Ages (far later than OUR VENETI of PROTOHISTORY) its surely a latin dialect - but i'm amazed by your affirmations concerning evolution of X to Z (what is the phonetic signification of these signs, please, before debating further on?

Sile
14-12-14, 18:46
??? What is your arguments here???
I spoke about breton vannetais: the only known celtic language (of today, of course because we know almost nothing of the ancient venetic of gaul) of the Armorican territory of ancient Veneti is 'brezhoneg gwenedeg' of "breton vannetais" - it is not gallic or gaulish, it 's for the most an insular brittonic language - it retained surely some gaulish words but this two languages were very close qat this time - but its phonetic evolution, halfway between insular and french tendancies, is clearly based on a substratum common with other french regions, and noesn' t need a peculiar "venetic" umput different from the rest of gallic dialects -
concerning YOUR venetic of Middle Ages (far later than OUR VENETI of PROTOHISTORY) its surely a latin dialect - but i'm amazed by your affirmations concerning evolution of X to Z (what is the phonetic signification of these signs, please, before debating further on?


The X is the latin influence, ie Pax etc

piero
14-12-14, 22:01
@piero,
Maybe you know - was there anything linking any of Venets to ducks?

Edit:
I will explain my question. Basically I was hunting down Antae ethnonime and found that in Lithuanian antis is duck (Latvian is very different - pīle). And wiktionary says that antis etimology is derived from proto-IE ennet/aennet (with common cognates in Germanic with root enned, etc).
Antes and Sclavenes were linked to Baltic Venets/Veneds by at least some sources.
Up to now I only found random reference of "spiritual revolution" in late bronze age/early iron age, appearing as multiple waterbird symbol finds.
By Jordanès : “Venetharum natio. . . quorum nomina licet nunc per varias familias et loca mutentur, principaliter tamen Sclavini ac Antes nominantur”. Yes, by Adriatic Veneti the duck is maybe the most important sacred animal.

piero
14-12-14, 22:03
in ancient times the Venelli was written as Uenelli and the resided on th epeninsula where modern cherbourg is..................they are said to have originated from the baltic sea area.
I'm also very curious about the source. Do you know it?