Veneti

how yes no 2

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there are Veneti tribes in several parts of Europe in distant places and different times... but there are also Eneti in Paphlagonia in Asia Minor,
in fact let's hear what Strabo have to say about it...
from Strabo's book:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper...98:book=12:chapter=3&highlight=thracian,eneti
....at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]
800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png


Strabo claims that Adriatic Veneti origin from Eneti from Paphlagonia, that is from area south of Black Sea

let's look something that I was missing before regarding I2a2..its variance in Turkey is relatively high, while frequency is low and there was no recent I2a2 settlements in Turkey...this indicates it might have come from there...
we can see that area of enlarged variance of I2a2 has some offset from Paphlagonia to the west, but this is normal taking into account that many centuries later invasion of Ottomans might have initially caused movement of all Asia minor people somewhat towards west... as similar offset have happened in Balkans with Serbs and Croats..
ejhg2008249f4.jpg


furthermore there is hotspot of variance of I2a2 in area of Adriatic Veneti
300px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png


here we see slight offset to the east of highest variance compared to position of Adriatic Veneti....in fact highest variance is in population of Slavic Slovenia

now let's move our attention to the hotspot of variance in the area above Black sea...this was for very long period settlement of Sarmatians
Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png


let us now remind ourselves about historical records of Vistula Veneti
Roman historian Pliny the Elder in Natural History (Liber IV: 96-97) mentions a tribe called Sarmatian Venedi (Latin Sarmatae Venedi). Subsequently, Tacitus in Germania (46) mentions Venethi; when comparing these to Germani and Sarmatae, however, Tacitus associates them with the former, stating that their habits are different from those of the Sarmatae.
In 2nd century AD, Ptolemy in his work De Geographia (III 5. 21.) mentions a people called Ouenedai along the southern shores of the Baltic, which he calls the Venedic Bay.
The historical document Tabula Peutingeriana, originating from the 4th century AD, separately mentions the Venedi along the Black Sea and the Venadi Sarmatae north of the Carpathians (see Gołąb 1992: 287-291, 295-296).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
let's now look at big Slavic tribes in 6th century
483px-Slavic_peoples_6th_century_historical_map.jpg


Venedi, Slavs, and Antes (Antae/ Anti)
Anti on place where Sarmatians were...
Isn't Anti obviously also a name derived from Eneti?

thus, let us reconsider following question: could ancient Veneti have been original carriers of I2a2 amongst Slavic people?

and could Adriatic Veneti, Vistula Veneti, Anti and Veneti from Britanny be related that is comming from the same origin?

could we claim thus that there is a link between Veneti and Sarmatians?
I think so, Sarmatians are located on the very spot of above Black sea, that is from opposite side of Black sea compared to settlement in Paphlagonia that was attested in writings of Strabo......


Let us now consider I haplogroup being Germanic people
Old High German Winida 'Wende' points to Pre-Germanic *Venétos, while Lat.-Germ. Venedi (as attested in Tacitus) and Old English Winedas 'Wends' call for Pre-Germanic *Venetós. Etymologically related words include Latin venus, -eris 'love, passion, grace'; Sanskrit vanas- 'lust, zest', vani- 'wish, desire'; Old Irish fine (< Proto-Celtic *venjā) 'kinship, kinfolk, alliance, tribe, family'; Old Norse vinr, Old Saxon, Old High German wini, Old Frisian, Old English wine 'Friend' (Pokorny 1959: 1146 - 1147; Steinacher 2002: 33)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti
let's now see Veneti in Britanny
643px-Gaul%2C_1st_century_BC.gif

Haplogroup_I.png


isn't that an island of I2a1 (M26) right there exactly where Veneti are? Can it be coincidence?

1) hotspot of I2a2 variance correlates position of Sarmatians and Vistula Veneti were either Sarmatian tribe or there was Sarmatian Veneti tribe as well or both
2) hotspot of I2a2 variance correlates position of Adriatic Veneti,
3) hotspot of frequency of I2a1 correlates position of Britanny Veneti
4) historically attested presence in Paphlagonia correlates with increased variance in area where is almost no frequency...

can it be coincidence?
No way!!
Now, let us try to figure out I2a2-Dinaric-North and I2a2Dinaric-South
 
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actually, high variance of I2a2 in Asia minor can also be due to Otoman empire who took away children from parents from all over Balkan and made them turkish soldiers...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janissary
also many native people of Balkan who have converted to islam during Ottoman rule, have moved to Turkey after break down of Ottoman empire.. and I think they did settle mostly in the area nearest to Europe - around Istanbul
 
clusterisation of samples

from "Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe"
Amalia Diaz-Lacavaa, Maja Waliera, Sascha Willuweitb, Thomas F. Wienkera, Rolf Fimmersa, Max P. Baura, and Lutz Roewerb


In Southeastern Central Europe and the Balkans several clusters were alternatively predominant. Two circumscribed and densely sampled areas stood out from the surroundings: central Anatolia (cluster 5) and central Hungary (cluster 14). It is worth mentioning that while a genetic differentiation of central Anatolia is in accordance with previous studies [17] and [18], a reliable characterization of the not sampled surrounding areas may require further evaluation. Two clusters were assigned to large areas of the Balkan Peninsula: (1) Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine: cluster 18; (2) continental Greece, Bulgaria, and Macedonia: cluster 2. Cluster 13 was assigned to Albania and to the western area of the Balkans and cluster 11 to the Caucasus.

cluster 18 - Croatia, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia, Romania, Western and Eastern Hungary, and Central Ukraine

cluster 18 groups with cluster 10 (?hard to say what is it - colour on map could be either Moldavia, and east Romania, or central-west Anatolia or part of Caucasus)
than those 2 clusters group with clusters 13 (Albania) and 5 (central Anatolia)

to me this seems to be in proof of Sarmatian-Veneti tribes originating from Paphlagonia, and Albanians as well originating from Asia minor perhaps via genetical origin from Dardani tribe...

in fact I wonder whether name Sarmatians is derived from earlier Cimmerians..
to find out more about this likely relationship please go to the forum thread about Sarmatians
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26070
 
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how yes no, please stop confusing people.
Your theory based on similarities of tribe names is not at all reasonable.

Adriatic Veneti were predominantly R1b.
Vistula Veneti were predominantly R1a.
Sarmatians were also predominantly R1a.
 
how yes no, please stop confusing people.
Your theory based on similarities of tribe names is not at all reasonable.
Adriatic Veneti were predominantly R1b.
Vistula Veneti were predominantly R1a.
Sarmatians were also predominantly R1a.
based on what? on your assumptions?
I explained my assumptions...so please explain your assumptions, so that I can try to prove you wrong.... as for proving me wrong, I do not see any argument in your lines above...
 
Should we expect that Veneto in Italy has the highest frequency of I2a2?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneto

not highest because there were quite some settlements and movements of people there ...
but yes, Veneto province is part of north east Italy that has 9.4% of it... look at
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/fig_tab/ejhg2008249f2.html#figure-title
and keep in mind that what we now call I2a2 was I2a1* there (well, look at values for Croatia, Bosnia...)
note that area also has 12% of G2a and 9%of I1 and 10.4% of R1a1

In fact, high G2a reminds on apparent connection of G2a and I2a2 in Sarmatians (Sarmatian Alani being G2a and the rest I would say mostly I2a2 dominant). Also high R1a is interesting... I1 typically is also present where I2a2 is, however in northeast Italy it can be mostly due to Goths, but still some part is probably older than germanic tribes that settled there and nearby during the fall of Roman empire...


Venetian or Venetan is a Romance language spoken as native language by over two million people,[1] mostly in the Veneto region of Italy, where of five million inhabitants almost all can understand it. It is sometime spoken and often well understood outside Veneto, in Trentino, Friuli, Venezia Giulia, Istria and some towns of Dalmatia, an area of six to seven million people. The language is called vèneto or vènet in Venetian, veneto in Italian; the variant spoken in Venice is called venexiàn/venesiàn or veneziano, respectively. Although referred to as an Italian dialect (diałeto dialetto) even by its speakers, like other Italian dialects it is a sister language of the national language, not a variety or derivative of it. Venetan (and Venetian proper, the language of Venice) display notable structural and lexical differences from Italian. Typologically, Venetan belongs only partly to the Northern Italian group within Romance languages.
Neither Venetan nor Venetian should be confused with Venetic, an extinct Indo-European language that was spoken in the Veneto region around the 6th century BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetian_language
 
Can you explain what settlements and movements?
sure, I can...
celtic Boii brought R1b in area , which is still like 50% of genetic material of northeast Italy...
Hallstatt_LaTene.png

R1bFreq.png

roman empire expansion did obviously bring some genetic material from southern parts of Italy...because they had to conquer and control that area before it was completely assimilated... they probably brought some of J2a (13.5% in total of today's gene pool)
550px-Roman_conquest_of_Italy.PNG

800px-HaploJ2.png

after the fall of roman empire, germanic tribes settled bringing some I1 haplogroups and also some additional R1b
Haplogroup_I.png

The Goths seem to have been thick on the ground in northern Italy; in the south they formed little more than garrisons.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ostrogoths
In the spring of 568, Alboin led the Lombards, together with other Germanic tribes; (Bavarians, Gepidae, Saxons[50]) and Bulgars, across the Julian Alps with a population of around 400,000 to 500,000, to invade northern Italy due to their expulsion from Pannonia by Avars.
The whole Lombard territory was divided into 36 duchies, whose leaders settled in the main cities. The king ruled over them and administered the land through emissaries called gastaldi. This subdivision, however, together with the independent indocility of the duchies, deprived the kingdom of unity, making it weak even when compared to the Byzantines, especially after they began to recover from the initial invasion. This weakness became even more evident when the Lombards had to face the increasing power of the Franks.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombards
800px-Frankish_Empire_481_to_814-en.svg.png


position of Lombardia province of Italy:
250px-Map_Region_of_Lombardia.svg.png


note that the numbers are for whole northeast Italy, while Veneto is likely to have less R1b (since center of Boii was more to the south) and less I1 (cause center of Lombards was more to the west) and as a result Veneto is likely to have more R1a and more I2a2 than data for northeast Italy shows...
 
What I meant is that you should explain what movements and settlements caused that people in Herzegovina have 63,8% of I2a2 and those who live in Veneto most likely have less then 3% (this is my estimation from Rootsi et al study from 2004, see my previous post).
 
Btw, these results are for Trento province (not Veneto).

North Italy as a whole has frequency of 1% for I2a2:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/

North Italy perhaps has 1% (did they say where exactly samples come from?), but obviously northeast Italy (Trento) has 9,4%

Trento is imediatelly west from Veneto...In fact you have good point there

300px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png


I2a2 might come from Raetic speaking people (closely related to Venetic) and Raetic is alike to alternative self-identification of Serbs, as principal Serb mediveal state was Ras/Rascia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raška_(state))
while Serbs were in medieval history also sometimes reffered to as Rascians/Raci, which I personally think is derivative from older Thracians/Thraci...or other way around...

Is there any data for Veneto?
 
Should I conclude I2a2 in Veneto province haven't had any migrations for last 2000 years, and on the other side all other haplogroups had?
What would be the reason for such strange phenomenon?
 
Should I conclude I2a2 in Veneto province haven't had any migrations for last 2000 years, and on the other side all other haplogroups had?
What would be the reason for such strange phenomenon?
I2a2 was assimilated into Celtic and Roman people...
they could have moved somewhat (as for instance from Veneto to Trento, in order to escape for example first wave of Goths) but I do think there was no big migration of previous inhabitants...

it is not strange phenomena... people that conquer others move... people that are weaker might move a bit to escape first wave of conquerors...but later they typically accept being subjugated and at least a part of them tend to assimilate into ruling people...

significant I2a2 in northeast Italy certainly may origin from Veneti, even if future samples from Veneto shows Veneto has none for instance...
 
I'm not aware of any Veneto specific data. But it is not that hard to calculate some kind of estimation.
nope.. it is hard...
because haplogroups in any province depend very much from founder tribes...
Veneti's sphere of influence covered Veneto... from there people that originate from them might have moved somewhat to any direction...likely to north and east escaping Celts who settled south of them, to north and east escaping Romans, and to west escaping Goths..
so, estimations will just not work...
only sampling Veneto and nearby regions can give a clue...
 
they could have moved somewhat (as for instance from Veneto to Trento, in order to escape for example first wave of Goths)

But than Trento should be called Veneto. How come Veneti<-> I2a2 link is broken?

It survived thousands of years earlier, there is no logic it should be broken in that particular moment...
 
But than Trento should be called Veneto. How come Veneti<-> I2a2 link is broken?

It survived thousands of years earlier, there is no logic it should be broken in that particular moment...
tribal days were over... big long lasting empire took over... which was not the case before in history... they just became Roman citizens.. same phenomena you have everywhere in Roman empire...previous tribal names are lost, as there were no tribes anymore, just citizens... but name is preserved... Veneto province is a name that origin from Veneti...
 
tribal days were over... big long lasting empire took over... which was not the case before in history... they just became Roman citizens.. same phenomena you have everywhere in Roman empire...previous tribal names are lost, as there were no tribes anymore, just citizens... but name is preserved... Veneto province is a name that origin from Veneti...

First time that some region (state) got its name derivated from name Veneti was in 7th century (Republic of Venice). That is 300 years after Roman empire lost its control over that particular region.
 

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