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how yes no 2
08-11-10, 00:22
The Sea Peoples is the term used for a confederacy of seafaring raiders of the second millennium BC who sailed into the eastern Mediterranean, caused political unrest, and attempted to enter or control Egyptian territory during the late 19th dynasty and especially during Year 8 of Ramesses III of the 20th Dynasty.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

they brought Hittite empire down...

Civil war and rivalling claims to the throne, combined with the external threat of the Sea Peoples weakened the Hittites and by 1160 BC, the Empire had collapsed. "Neo-Hittite" post-Empire states, petty kingdoms under Assyrian rule, may have lingered on until ca. 700 BC, and the Bronze Age Hittite and Luwian dialects evolved into the sparsely attested Lydian, Lycian and Carian languages.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites

Reign of Ramesses II

Records or possible records of sea peoples generally or in particular date to two campaigns of Ramesses II, a pharaoh of the militant 19th Dynasty: operations in or near the delta in Year 2 of his reign and the major confrontation with the Hittite Empire and allies at the Battle of Kadesh in his Year 5. The dates of this long-lived pharaoh's reign are not known for certain, but they must have comprised nearly all of the first half of the 13th century BC.[14]
In his Second Year, an attack of the Sherden, or Shardana, on the Nile Delta was repulsed and defeated by Ramesses, who captured some of the pirates. The event is recorded on Tanis Stele II.[15] An inscription by Ramesses II on the stela from Tanis which recorded the Sherden raider's raid and subsequent capture speaks of the continuous threat they posed to Egypt's Mediterranean coasts:
"the unruly Sherden whom no one had ever known how to combat, they came boldly sailing in their warships from the midst of the sea, none being able to withstand them."[16]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people


the ends of several civilizations around 1175 BC have instigated a theory that the Sea Peoples may have caused the collapse of the Hittite, Mycenaean and Mitanni kingdoms. The American Hittitologist, Gary Beckman, writes on page 23 of Akkadica 120 (2000):[28]
A terminus ante quem for the destruction of the Hittite empire has been recognised in an inscription carved at Medinet Habu in Egypt in the eighth year of Ramesses III (1175 BC). This text narrates a contemporary great movement of peoples in the eastern Mediterranean, as a result of which "the lands were removed and scattered to the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya on being cut off. [ie: cut down]"
Ramesses' comments about the scale of the Sea Peoples' onslaught in the eastern Mediterranean are confirmed by the destruction of the states of Hatti, Ugarit, Ashkelon and Hazor around this time. As the Hittitologist Trevor Bryce observes:[29]
It should be stressed that the invasions were not merely military operations, but involved the movements of large populations, by land and sea, seeking new lands to settle.
This situation is confirmed by the Medinet Habu temple reliefs of Ramesses III which show that:[29]
the Peleset and Tjekker warriors who fought in the land battle [against Ramesses III] are accompanied in the reliefs by women and children loaded in ox-carts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people


The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al , one of the string of "Bitter Lakes" to the east of the Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
The term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

ok, now we know historical backgroud, let's try to analyse situation

1) that was large scale movement of people, not just an attack

2) people were skilled in making wars

3) "sea people" name come from attacking from the sea

4) Sirbonis bog in Egypt is named after them presumably after Sherden

5) order of conquer: Hatti, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashya, Egypt
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Amarnamap.png/772px-Amarnamap.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carchemish

Carchemish (called Europus or Εὔρωπος by the Greco-Romans) was an important ancient city of the Mitanni, Hittite and Neo Assyrian Empires, now on the frontier between Turkey and Syria

movement of people with woman, children, oxes doesnot really fit well with image of ship only attack....
so I think it was a mass wave of ground invasion accompanied by ships...
thus it went along coastlines...

we have already established that G2a spread matches Hittite empire
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/2/2f/Hittite_Kingdom.png/800px-Hittite_Kingdom.png

what you can notice is that G2a is stripped off along coastlines...that is G2a has much less frequencies in lines going next to seas starting from Istanbul area (that was never part of Hittite state) straight towards east next to coast line... that shows where sea people came from...from Balkans

it is in fact ingenious military tactics... going along coastlines supported with ships... they went along coast of Black sea which devastated Hatti province of Hittite empire... than they wanted to proceed along coastline so they had to meet their fleet support in Mediteranean sea, so they made a turn towards south immediately on passage from Asia minor to Asia and than near Carchemish
they meet their fleet. Since they needed to provide solid bases for their fleet so they went back into Asia minor towards west this time along south seacoast conquering Arzawa (again Arzawa is the area where G2a is stripped off along coast)... after establishing basis for further advancement, they continued along coasts of Syria towards Egypt..

this was massive settllement wave, so it must have influenced population structure and must have left genetic trail...

thus we look for haplogroup(s) (otherwise foreign to Asia) in Asia that goes straight throw Asia minor along coastline, than turns to south towards Syria..
looking at lineages of Asia such a direction of spread has obviously haplogroup I

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

in fact, haplogroup I shows us that being akin to ruling coastlines sea people also continued towards Caspian sea and made a big base there as well, and continued further..

today hotspots of haplogroup I in Asia minor and Asia are related to Zazas (Dimilis/Daylami) in Asia minor... and in area called Daylami south of Caspian lake (area north of Teheran)..


Linguistic studies shows that the Zazas may have immigrated to their modern-day homeland from the southern shores of the Caspian Sea. Some Zazas use the word Dimli (Daylami) to describe their ethnic identity. The word [B]Dimli (Daylami) also describes a region of Gilan Province in today’s Iran. Some linguists connect the word Dimli with the Daylamites in the Alborz Mountains near the shores of Caspian Sea in Iran and believe that the Zaza have migrated from Daylam towards the west. Today, Iranian languages are still spoken in southern regions of Caspian Sea (also called the Caspian languages), including Sangsarī, Māzandarānī, Tātī (Herzendī), Semnānī, Tāleshī, and they are grammatically and lexically very close to Zazaki; this supports the argument that Zazas immigrated to eastern Anatolia from southern regions of Caspian Sea.[8] Zazas also live in a region close to the Kurds, who are also another Iranic ethnic group. But, historic sources such as the Zoroastrian holy book, Bundahishn, places the Dilaman (Dimila/Zaza) homeland in the headwaters of the Tigris[citation needed], as it is today. This points to that the Dimila/Zaza migrated to the Caspian sea and not the other way around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazas

I think tribal name Dalmatae in Balkan (where is highest frequency of haplogrpoup I2a2) and word Daylamites (islands of I in north Iran and Asia minor) have same root, denote same people...

Dalmatae/Dalmatinci were always sea related people, anyone in west Balkans can tell you so..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Celts_in_Illyria_%26_Pannonia.png


The Zazaki language shows similarities with (Hewrami or Gorani), Shabaki and Bajelani. Gorani, Bajelani, and Shabaki languages are spoken around Iran-Iraq border; however, it is believed that they are also immigrated from Northern Iran to their present homelands. These languages are sometimes put together in the Zaza-Gorani language group.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zazaki_language

Here I wonder whether words Shabaki and Srbi have common origin... note that Gorani is common tribal name amongst Slavic people - it means simply people living in hills....e.g. there is today a ethnic group Gorani in Kosovo..they are of Slavic origin but has accepted islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorani_people


in fact, it we follow further spread of I in the Asia we get to Sarbans who are now one of the Pashtun tribes... however, unlike other Pastuns they seems to carry lot of I haplogroup
which is illustrated by observing perfect match between spread of I haplogroup and Sarbans

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png
http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Pashtun_Confederacies_sm.jpg

we can see that in this part tribal name Sarbans is preserved
this of course expains well why some of "sea people" were known as Sherden, why Sirbonis bog is named after "sea people"....

Haplogroup I however continues further, next stop is Sogdiana

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sogdiana
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b9/Sogdiana-300BCE.png

last stop is believe it or not in what is now north-west China
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

who were those people?


Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres


Pliny also reports a curious description of the Seres made by an embassy from Taprobane to Emperor Claudius, suggesting they may be referring to the ancient Caucasian populations of the Tarim Basin, such as the Tocharians:
"They also informed us that the side of their island (Taprobane) which lies opposite to India is ten thousand stadia in length, and runs in a south-easterly direction--that beyond the Emodian Mountains (Himalayas) they look towards the Serve (Seres), whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce; .." (Pliny the Elder, The Natural History, Chap XXIV "Taprobane")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres


Serica, the land of the Seres, was the name by which the Greco-Romans referred to a country in Central Asia.
Ancient Mediterranean knowledge of this nation was indistinct and distorted by fables and myths. Ptolemy and Pliny the Elder present more precise descriptions. Serica was described by Ptolemy as bordering "Scythia beyond the Imaum mountains (Tian Shan)" on the West, "Terra Incognita" to the North-East, the "Sinae" or Chinese to the East and "India" to the South. This would correspond with modern Xinjiang province in North-Western China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica

"wide arc from China to India"known as Seres is again clearly visible in distribution of I haplogroup connecting in arc position of Sarbans, Sogdiana, and Serica proper..

looking forward to hear your opinion about this theory of who were "sea peoples"

Sprinkles
08-11-10, 01:21
Gorani would refer to Gore, which is up, and ani, which would mean a state of existence. This would indicate mountain people, which is well claimed from the geography. I do not believe this has any reference to Iran and as most of your speculation seems irreconcilable. It was well known that Illyrians (Dalmatae, Luburni, etc) were sea-waring people and looted Roman ships for hundreds of years. The design of Roman sea vessels was adopted from the Luburni. I also remember reading the Greeks indicating the Romans saved the world from the Illyrians.


I read some of your reasoning and it omits any geographic limitation to population changes through migration. You seem to be of the belief that migrations across thousands of miles happened rapidly, and i would not dispute that they didn't - given the texture of a given area wrt geography and climate. On the other hand, when you're discussing the Balkans, and in general Dalmatia, Hercegovina, and Bosna, which are mountainous regions, you understand why the theory of easy migration, killing of indigenous people, and replication falls apart.

If you track the frequency of E-V13, you notice the same avoidance of it in areas that lack R1b in the Balkans. E-V13 tracks from Albania, through Serbia, and up into Eastern Europe avoiding most of Bosna and Coastal Dalmatia. Why? Because the terrain is unsuitable to conquer. Almost all of the land covering Bosna and Dalmatia is mountainous. Geographic barriers are known in evolutionary terms to provide reproductive isolation, and this should be the first warning sign that your migratory theories are wrong.

This is also why Ghenghis Khan was stopped around the Dalmatian Coast of Klis and never advanced further. But, in an anecdotal claim, there claimed to be horses left over from Khan's armies in Croatian lands that were much shorter and faster than indigenous horses and were of different color.

how yes no 2
09-11-10, 01:40
Gorani would refer to Gore, which is up, and ani, which would mean a state of existence. This would indicate mountain people, which is well claimed from the geography.

that is what I said or wanted to say
Gorani = people living in mountains (I said hills which is perhaps wrong)
Gora = mountain in Slavic, derived from Gore = up


I do not believe this has any reference to Iran and as most of your speculation seems irreconcilable.


that about Gorani/Shabaki as closest languages to Zazaki was an association that I had while reading ... but you are right it is not strong point...


It was well known that Illyrians (Dalmatae, Luburni, etc) were sea-waring people and looted Roman ships for hundreds of years. The design of Roman sea vessels was adopted from the Luburni. I also remember reading the Greeks indicating the Romans saved the world from the Illyrians.


could Zazaki language have traces of Illyrian language?

there are only few preserved Illyrian words:
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm
llyrian
alt- (a stream) (in Altus - a hydronym), barba- (a swamp)
bra' (brother! (vocative)), brisa (husks of grapes). cleves- (famous),
lugo- (a pool), mag- (great),
metu- (between), oseriates (lakes),
plo- (strong, powerful), rinos (clouds), sybina (a spear),
tertigio (a merchant) trege" (a market), teuta- (people, a tribe),
ves- (kind, good)

Serbo-Croatian
liti(to flow), bara (bog, pond, morras),
brat (brother), cuven (famous),
medju/izmedju (between), jezero (lake, in russiian nad Ukrainian closer match - ozero), runo (cloud like wool, fleece), trgovac (merchant), trg (market)

"ves"(kind, good) is one of the words above that have no clear Serbo-Croatian/Slavic counterpart (closest would be veseo = cheerful, and vest = good skilled, crafty)

illyrian ves- (kind, good)

English fine => Zazaki - weş Kurmanji/Sorani - xweş Pashto - ʂa/xa Balochi - wash/ hosh Mazandarani -xaar Persian - xosh Middle Persian -dârmag Parthian - Old Persian - Avestan -srîra Ossetic - xorz/dzæbæx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Iranian_languages_word_table


I read some of your reasoning and it omits any geographic limitation to population changes through migration. You seem to be of the belief that migrations across thousands of miles happened rapidly, and i would not dispute that they didn't - given the texture of a given area wrt geography and climate. On the other hand, when you're discussing the Balkans, and in general Dalmatia, Hercegovina, and Bosna, which are mountainous regions, you understand why the theory of easy migration, killing of indigenous people, and replication falls apart.

in fact, we do not know how rapidly did spread to central and east Asia happen...

Hm, look at the path of conquer of Alexandar Macedonian in few years

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/MacedonEmpire.jpg/800px-MacedonEmpire.jpg

through midst of Asia minor hills, while "sea people" went along coastline...
after Syria, Egypt, Mesopotamia, here he goes again in hills...

and if you look on pictures bellow at "sea people", they actually do follow relief a lot- look at Sarbans they spread in lower part of Afganistan up to the hills, than also to Sogdiana following plains, and Serica is plain...
so, when they do not follow sea-coast, they follow relief...

don't be confused with south spread of haplogroup I in area Kerman/Germania of Persia- I think that is much older source haplogroup I, that is ancient Germania....

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png
http://www.map-of-asia.us/c-asia-r786.gif


If you track the frequency of E-V13, you notice the same avoidance of it in areas that lack R1b in the Balkans. E-V13 tracks from Albania, through Serbia, and up into Eastern Europe avoiding most of Bosna and Coastal Dalmatia. Why? Because the terrain is unsuitable to conquer. Almost all of the land covering Bosna and Dalmatia is mountainous. Geographic barriers are known in evolutionary terms to provide reproductive isolation, and this should be the first warning sign that your migratory theories are wrong.

I understand that reasoning and agree with it, but examples are bad:
E-V13 have large variance in midst of Dalmatia which means it was once (when?) much more dominant there...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/images/ejhg2008249f4.jpg

R1b in Balkans is again wrong example since there is more than twice more in mountains of Montenegro (9.4%) than in Serbia (4.5%)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo

LeBrok
09-11-10, 02:36
ves is close to vesir in arabic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizier

Vizier, has connotation close to vision?
What about german weiss, to know. A visionary leader?
Indoeuropean roots, left in areas where Hittites or others went through?

how yes no 2
09-11-10, 02:47
spread of Zazaki language in Asia minor is exactly matching the place where corridor connecting 2 sea coasts is made... strategically extremely important => larger population was settled there...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f6/Zaza_DialectsMap-4.gif/280px-Zaza_DialectsMap-4.gif

how yes no 2
09-11-10, 03:17
ves is close to vesir in arabic.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vizier

Vizier, has connotation close to vision?
What about german weiss, to know. A visionary leader?
Indoeuropean roots, left in areas where Hittites or others went through?
:innocent:
Hittities were IE speaking


weiss (to know) and vision are related words, to see = to know
PIE *weid- to see, to find, to know

Vezir has different origin - to help someone... which in fact share similarities with Ves... cause people who help others are good...


The word entered into English in 1562, from the Turkish vezir ("counsellor"), and from the Arabic wazir ("viceroy"), āzara ("to help"), and the root wzr ("to help somebody").[2][9] or from Persian and Iranian languages,[10] The Middle Persian ancestor of this word in Pahlavi is vicir ("a legal document" or "decision"),[9] which in turn originated from Avestan vichira, meaning decreer or arbitrator.[11] Linguistically, it is related to the Latin word vicarius.

point was that Ves is exactly the same word with exactly the same meaning in Illyrian and Zazaki/Sorani while it is different in most iranian languages...

Sprinkles
09-11-10, 06:14
that is what I said or wanted to say
that about Gorani/Shabaki as closest languages to Zazaki was an association that I had while reading ... but you are right it is not strong point...

Your inferences are very weak and borderline delusional.



could Zazaki language have traces of Illyrian language?

there are only few preserved Illyrian words:
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm
llyrian
alt- (a stream) (in Altus - a hydronym), barba- (a swamp)
bra' (brother! (vocative)), brisa (husks of grapes). cleves- (famous),
lugo- (a pool), mag- (great),
metu- (between), oseriates (lakes),
plo- (strong, powerful), rinos (clouds), sybina (a spear),
tertigio (a merchant) trege" (a market), teuta- (people, a tribe),
ves- (kind, good)

Serbo-Croatian
liti(to flow), bara (bog, pond, morras),
brat (brother), cuven (famous),
medju/izmedju (between), jezero (lake, in russiian nad Ukrainian closer match - ozero), runo (cloud like wool, fleece), trgovac (merchant), trg (market)

"ves"(kind, good) is one of the words above that have no clear Serbo-Croatian/Slavic counterpart (closest would be veseo = cheerful, and vest = good skilled, crafty)

illyrian ves- (kind, good)

English fine => Zazaki - weş Kurmanji/Sorani - xweş Pashto - ʂa/xa Balochi - wash/ hosh Mazandarani -xaar Persian - xosh Middle Persian -dârmag Parthian - Old Persian - Avestan -srîra Ossetic - xorz/dzæbæx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Iranian_languages_word_table

You can pretty much take any word, compare it to any language, and find a similarity. No one does it, because it's idiotic.





in fact, we do not know how rapidly did spread to central and east Asia happen...

Hm, look at the path of conquer of Alexandar Macedonian in few years

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/40/MacedonEmpire.jpg/800px-MacedonEmpire.jpg

through midst of Asia minor hills, while "sea people" went along coastline...
after Syria, Egypt, Mesopotamia, here he goes again in hills...

and if you look on pictures bellow at "sea people", they actually do follow relief a lot- look at Sarbans they spread in lower part of Afganistan up to the hills, than also to Sogdiana following plains, and Serica is plain...
so, when they do not follow sea-coast, they follow relief...

Yeah, your map shows Alexander conquered through Plains and along river pathways. What is also shows is that there is a clear lineage of haplogroup I2a2 footprint in Western Asia, through Alexander. And, not the other way around. I also want to know the genetic footprint his army left on the area. It's nice to talk about empires, but those empires rarely have a large genetic footprint on the totality of the conquered territories. The empire crumbled, the armies left, the indigenous people destroyed them.

Now what you're talking about are migrations of people into the Balkans through mountains (from the east) that have no access points other than across the mountains.

1) Basic genetics teaches us that geographic barriers are hot spots for genetic isolation.
2) In this thread you have shown a clear inference for the existence of haplogroup I2a2 in western Asia.
3) You have no proof of any language associations creating a genetic link.
4) Your evidence is weak, non-existent, and borderline delusional.



don't be confused with south spread of haplogroup I in area Kerman/Germania of Persia- I think that is much older source haplogroup I, that is ancient Germania....

That's nice, you have no evidence of it.



I understand that reasoning and agree with it, but examples are bad:
E-V13 have large variance in midst of Dalmatia which means it was once (when?) much more dominant there...

Too bad variance depends on accuracy of genetic data(which is very limited) and plotting of microsattelites(which causes error). You will find variance anywhere there is a low frequency and a higher frequency elsewhere. I do not believe E-V13 was ever prominent in Dalmatia, nor Hercegovina, nor Bosna. The fact that it exists is a symptom of gene flow, and the fact that it exists in lower levels than in Serbia, Greece, or Hungaria - is a symptom of geographic isolation.

You should really understand geography before you try to argue genetics.





R1b in Balkans is again wrong example since there is more than twice more in mountains of Montenegro (9.4%) than in Serbia (4.5%)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...21235/suppinfo
[/quote]
1) Montenegro is closer to Albania, which is also closer to the end of the Dinaric Alps than Hercegovina.
2) We do not know the accuracy of those tests, we know that R1b is found in the Dinaric Alps at a less of a percent than in the rest of Europe.
3) You make shit up all day.
4) The % for Serbia is 7% on Eupedia.
5) The percent for Herceg Bosna is 4%.
6) The percent for Croatia is 8% (which includes Slavonia which is not on the Dinaric Alps).
7) E-V13 is lower in Dalmatia/B&H / because of geography.
8) R1b is lower in Dalmatia/B&H because of geography.

how yes no 2
10-11-10, 00:47
Your inferences are very weak and borderline delusional.
sorry, but your evaluation has not much value to me, since you need yet to prove in my eyes that you have any knowledge that stretches further from what you read from Maciamo's posts...

You can pretty much take any word, compare it to any language, and find a similarity. No one does it, because it's idiotic.
nope you are not right... if you have a match in both form and meaning of the word, than you are likely to have common origin of the word.. Are you aware how was common proto-indo-european language discovered and partially reconstructed? Do you think it was always known and everyone read it on wikipedia, or you are capable to realize that they came up with theory by comparing something - words perhaps? I guess according to your line of thought, all work on reconstructing PIE language was just idiotic...

Yeah, your map shows Alexander conquered through Plains and along river pathways.
read my text, I said he crossed through middle of Asia minor instead of sticking to coast, and also after Syria, Egypt, and Iraq, he did quite a lot walk around with army through iranian highlands...

What is also shows is that there is a clear lineage of haplogroup I2a2 footprint in Western Asia, through Alexander.
if what I claim was delusional, than this claim is too. Point is that we do not know how haplogroup I made that path and not even in which direction was movement... I made a theory about one possible reason for such a spread....
another possibility would be spread with Alexander Macedonian,third would be that it in fact spread from Persia to all directions..
we just do not know... we can make theories like I did and find arguments to support our theories, as I tried to do. But you can't bluntly without argument say that any theory different than yours is delusional. It's kids level of reasoning based on phrase "cause I say so"...

And, not the other way around. I also want to know the genetic footprint his army left on the area. It's nice to talk about empires, but those empires rarely have a large genetic footprint on the totality of the conquered territories. The empire crumbled, the armies left, the indigenous people destroyed them.
short lasting conquers do not leave major imprint... but if settlement wave is present, than they will leave genetic trace...
did Alexandar Macedonian massively settle people from Balkan or just had army units on strategic places?
"sea people" were settlement wave as written in ancient Egyptian books...
we do not know how long did "sea people" conquest last in Asia...historic records from Egypt tells us only about period in which Egypt was target...

1) Basic genetics teaches us that geographic barriers are hot spots for genetic isolation.
agreed, which coupled with extreme hotspot of E-V13 in Dalmatia points out that E-V13 might have been in Dalmatia before I2a2.. I can understand that that is not what you want to hear, but that is what variance much larger than anywhere in Balkans (including places with very large frequencies) tells me about it...

2) In this thread you have shown a clear inference for the existence of haplogroup I2a2 in western Asia.
I don't know whether it is I2a2... It is one of I haplogroups.. In the studies based on which plots are made, separating subtypes of I was not done...
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/references


3) You have no proof of any language associations creating a genetic link.
no, but I don't speak of any language associations giving genetic link. I set theory that tribal names are often being preserved together with genetics...... and in addition I wonder on several examples whether match in linguistics and common origin of words can indicate common genetic origin...

4) Your evidence is weak, non-existent, and borderline delusional.
That's nice, you have no evidence of it.
hello, it's a theory..like almost anything in science is just a theory... it's not mainstream theory..it is my current (it may change) theory about origin of haplogroup I in Asia... It looks to me as you are infinetly bothered with idea that tribes with tribal names matching the ones of Serbs and Dalmatines were together in massive military conquest while Croats appeared on Balkans only like 2000 years later? Is that why you so strongly object my theory, up to the point that you give me diagnoses of delusional and idiotic? do your own research, make your own theories, find arguments to attack theories you can't live with...

Too bad variance depends on accuracy of genetic data(which is very limited) and plotting of microsattelites(which causes error).
right, and the ones who make variance plots are fools...
here is how variance showed that certain subgroup of R1b came to Europe from Asia minor... frequencies would suggest that it was always in west Europe...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/?tool=pubmed
look at frequencies and look variance...variance was talking about distant past...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/bin/pbio.1000285.g001.jpg
so, no, variance is not something you can discard as irrelevant...just because it does not fit your biased attitudes...

You will find variance anywhere there is a low frequency and a higher frequency elsewhere.
that says only one thing: people tend to move quite a lot during long time periods of few thousand years....

I do not believe E-V13 was ever prominent in Dalmatia, nor Hercegovina, nor Bosna. The fact that it exists is a symptom of gene flow, and the fact that it exists in lower levels than in Serbia, Greece, or Hungaria - is a symptom of geographic isolation.
nope, that also might be because I2a2 Illyrians did kind of ethnical cleansing when they settled, or because perhaps E-V13 Illyricum was emptied by Goths.... or because E-V13 tribes decided one day few thousand years ago to move south.... there are many ways to explain it... you sticked to one possible explanation and made a holy truth from it...
I find it more likely that pattern of E-V13 spread in fact coincides with retreating of east Roman empire due to attacks of barbarians...


You should really understand geography before you try to argue genetics.

No, you should, spread of tribes that I propose as "sea people" in Asia follows plains and lower regions... look at southwest Afganistan (Sarbans) and folllow plain to Sogdiana and Serica ...that talks about settlement wave in area that was already settled.... "wide arc from China to India" known as Seres is again clearly visible in relief as lower lands and in distribution of I haplogroup connecting in arc position of Sarbans, Sogdiana, and Serica proper..
http://www.map-of-asia.us/c-asia-r786.gif
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

1) Montenegro is closer to Albania, which is also closer to the end of the Dinaric Alps than Hercegovina.
2) We do not know the accuracy of those tests
I am speaking of testing done in Serbia and in Montenegro...
first one on larger sample
and btw. also first test about Serbs or Serbia that was not done by Croatian scientists...

, we know that R1b is found in the Dinaric Alps at a less of a percent than in the rest of Europe.
so? we also know there are R1b holes wherever Ostrogoths massively settled...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/R1bmap.JPG
http://www.arbolingo.com/tam/worldmap/goths-migration-300ad-700ad.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Ostrogothic_Kingdom.png/250px-Ostrogothic_Kingdom.png

3) You make shit up all day.
4) The % for Serbia is 7% on Eupedia.
5) The percent for Herceg Bosna is 4%.
6) The percent for Croatia is 8% (which includes Slavonia which is not on the Dinaric Alps).
??? mind your language...
I did put the reference bellow the numbers for R1b in Serbia and Montenegro... if you have no access rights to article you can access supplementary info and calculate yourself percentages... or ask someone who can access article (e.g Maciamo) to find it there for you... I cannot be blamed for you not having subscription to journals that publish results of genetic research...
btw. donot quote Eupedia, quote papers...
Eupedia states for Serbs 7% T completely delusional data based on wrong interpretation of lazyness of croatian scientist to figure out which subgroups of K those samples belonged to... it was not R1a and not R1b so they made it K as K is parent for L, M, N, O, P, Q, R,S,T... and this forged 7% of K was further forged by someone on Eupedia to 7% T...

so, no, I do not trust any data presented on Eupedia web site... it is often about Maciamo's theories more than about reality...

Btw. Eupedia also states for Croatia forged 42% of I2a2 - obtained from work of croatian "scientists" who came up with 42% by taking around half samples from 3 scarcely populated islands in south Croatia (where all together like 40 thousand people live and where I2a2 is over 55%) together with half of samples from the rest of Croatia (where more than 4 milion people live)

http://cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100752.pdf
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/full/5200992a.html

not to talk about sampling hotspots of I2a2 also for the rest making mix of samples without telling which number of samples came from which town... but out of few locations included were: Dubrovnik as town close to the 3 islands and hotspot in Hercegovina, and Zagreb which is an island of I2a2 in north Croatia (without Zagreb I2a2 is there close to zero) due to lot of migration from south areas to capital, and by including Osijek that is near border with Serbia and follows spread trends present there...

btw. all the 3 islands in south Croatia (Hvar, Korcula , Brac) with over 55% I2a2 were part of Pagania
and according to only historic source talking about origin of people from Pagania, they were Serbs and not Croats...

Byzantine emperor Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus stresses that "Pagani are descended from the unbaptized Serbs" and that "The Pagani are so called because they did not accept baptism at the time when all the Serbs were baptized." [1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagania


7) E-V13 is lower in Dalmatia/B&H / because of geography.
8) R1b is lower in Dalmatia/B&H because of geography.
why? because you say so? can you please stop using your (or someone else ) claims as absolute truths and try to support them with some argument?
you assume E-V13 arrived when area was settled by I2a2 and others... and thus it didnot enter mountains... but I ask you what is the reason to assume so when variance of E-V13 peaks in Dalmatia, and variance of I2a2 in Ukraine and Slovenia? again, why are you so sure I2a2 was there before E-V13? it's a theory... it may or may not be correct... you can say I haplogroup in Europe is palaeolithic and E-V13 is not... well, we can assume that, but we do not really know that... we don't know when I2a2 arrived to Europe and we do not know where in Europe it was... there are theories about that, but just theories... ok?

how yes no 2
14-11-10, 16:31
we can see same tribal name among Sarmatians


The Serboi were a tribe dwelling on the European steppe. Serboi is the Greek version of their name. The Serbi are mentioned among the peoples living adjacent to the Sea of Azov (then known as Lake Moeotis) in the first century AD by Pliny the Elder.[1] In the next century the geographer Ptolemy placed them a little further east in the land of Sarmatia Asiatica, to the west of the Volga (then known as the River Rha).[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg

in fact, Sarmatian Siraci seems to have been the same people...


The Siraces (Greek: Sirakoi, Latin: Siraci, also Siraceni and Seraci[1]) were a hellenized Sarmatian tribe that inhabited Sarmatia Asiatica; the coast of Achardeus at the Black Sea south of the Caucasus mountains, Siracena[1] is mentioned by Tacitus as one of their settlements. They were said to be relatively small nation but with great moral.[2] They were neighbours to the later enemy tribe of Aorsi.
They migrated from the Caspian Sea to the Black Sea region. By the late 4th century, they had occupied lands between the Caucasus mountains and the Don, becoming masters of the Kuban region. They were the first Sarmatian tribe to have contact with the Hellenic groups on the coast of the Black Sea.[2]
In 310-309 BC their king Aripharnes took part in the succession war of the Bosporan Kingdom and lost at a battle on the Thates (a tributary of the Kuban river).[2]
In the 1st century BC during the rule of Pharnaces II of Pontus, King of Siraces Abeacus organized 20,000 horses after the Roman occupation of the Kingdom of Pontus (63-62 BC).[2]
They and the Aorsi were merchants who traded with goods of Babylonia and India through the Armenians and Medes, with camels. They profited greatly from this, seen in their clothing attributed with much gold.[2]
...
They were the most hellenized of the Sarmatians, and maintained good relations with the Bosporans.[2]
In 193 AD, after another conflict in the Bosporus, the Siraces disappears from the history.[2]
They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

ok, note here that they "were merchants who traded with goods of Babylonia and India through the Armenians and Medes, with camels. They profited greatly from this, seen in their clothing attributed with much gold."

Of course, they were successful as merchants, they had genetic and probably cultural link all the way to Serica proper in northwest China, where silk was produced, and to India via Pashtun Sarbans...


Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

how yes no 2
17-11-10, 02:20
Their confederation was the Peleset, Tjeker, Shekelesh, Denyen and Weshesh, lands united.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples

Peleset were one of sea people that indulged in land invasion...


The Greek toponym Palestini (Παλαιστίνη), with which the Arabic Filastin (فلسطين) is cognate, first occurs in the work of the Greek historian Herodotus, active in the middle of the 5th century BCE, where it denotes generally[22] the coastal land from Phoenicia down to Egypt.[23][24] Herodotus also employs the term as an ethnonym, as when he speaks of the 'Syrians of Palestine' or 'Palestinian-Syrians',[25] an ethnically amorphous group he distinguishes from the Phoenicians referring to the Aramaeic Samaritans led by Sanbalat and appointed by the Persian kings and the Arabs in Jerusalem referred to also by Ezra (the Bible).[26] The word bears comparison to a congeries of ethnonyms in Semitic languages, Ancient Egyptian Plst or flst, Assyrian as Palastu, and the Hebraic as Plishtim, the latter term used in the Bible to signify the Philistines.[27]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine


The name Pelasgians (Greek: Πελασγοί, Pelasgoí, singular Πελασγός, Pelasgós) was used by some ancient Greek writers to refer to populations that preceded the Hellenes in Greece, "a hold-all term for any ancient, primitive and presumably autochthonous people in the Greek world."[1] In general, "Pelasgian" has come to mean more broadly all the autochthonous inhabitants of the Aegean lands and their cultures before the advent of the Greek language.[2] This is not an exclusive meaning, but other senses require identification when meant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians


Much like all other aspects of the "Pelasgians", their ethnonym (Pelasgoi) is of extremely uncertain provenance and etymology. Michel Sakellariou collects fifteen different etymologies proposed for it by philologists and linguists during the last 200 years, though he admits that "most...are fanciful".[5]
An ancient etymology based on mere similarity of sounds linked pelasgos to pelargos "stork" and postulates that the Pelasgians were migrants like storks, possibly from Egypt, where they nest.[6] Aristophanes deals effectively with this etymology in his comedy the Birds. One of the laws of "the storks" in the satirical cloud-cuckoo-land, playing upon the Athenian belief that they were originally Pelasgians, is that grown-up storks must support their parents by migrating elsewhere and conducting warfare.[7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

hm, same words for people and for storks that go to Egypt to spend winter there... winter is the period of the year without crops... so, this could be about the nation who escaped hunger by migrating to Egypt and conducting warfare there...


Gilbert Murray summarizes the derivation from pelas gē, "neighboring land:"[8]
If Pelasgoi is connected with πέλας, 'near', the word would mean 'neighbor' and would denote the nearest strange people to the invading Greeks ...

I would add that capital of ancient Macedonians is Pella


The ancient Greek word for sea, pelagos, comes from the same root, *plāk-, as the Doric word plagos, "side" (which is flat), appearing in *pelag-skoi. Ernest Klein therefore simply interprets the same reconstructed form as "the sea men", where the sea is the flat.[12]
Klein's interpretation does not require the Indo-Europeans to have had a word for sea, which living on the inland plains (if they did) they are likely to have lacked. On encountering the sea they simply used the word for plain, "the flat." The flatlanders also could acquire what must have been to the Hellenes a homonym, "the sea men". Best of all, if the Egyptians of the Late Bronze Age encountered maritime marauders under this name they would have translated as Sea peoples.
ok, so we have Pelasgians, whose name means sea people, but also is used in comedy to compare them with storks that migrate to Egypt to spend winter there, as they seems to be nation that went to warfare in Egypt during period of hunger..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

I propose that out of Pelasgians come Palastu or Syrians of Palestine known today as Palestinians...
let's see whether hunger indeed could have been the cause of movement of Pelasgians from Greece to Syria and Palestine...

Herodotus wrote in his work "The Histories"
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html


The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/300px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Etruscan_civilization_map.png/493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png

the movement of Lydians from Lydia in Asia minor to Italy where they became Etruscans is based on archeology and DNA study of Tuscan cattle breeds estimated to have happened around 1200BC....
(Pellecchia et al., The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA, Proceedings ofthe Royal Society Series B, vol. 274 (2007), pp. 1175–1179.)

sea people attacked Hattusa around 1180 BC, Egypt in 1175 BC...
those are comparable times with estimated settlement of Etruscans from Lydia in Asia Minor to Italy....

Lydia had capital Sardis (also Sparda, which is sometimes used instead of Lydia)

The endonym Śfard (the name the Lydians called themselves) survives in bilingual and trilingual stone-carved notices of the Achaemenid Empire: the satrapy of Sparda (Old Persian), Aramaic Saparda, Babylonian Sapardu, Elamitic Išbarda.[1] These in the Greek tradition are associated with Sardis, the capital city of Gyges, constructed in the 7th century BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia

Etruscans called themselves Raseni


In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization


perhaps pure coincidence but later Serbs were called Rasani and their medieval state was Raska... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs

how yes no 2
18-11-10, 00:31
Etruscans are often thought of as candidates for sea people based on the name Teresh that bares resemblance to their name Tyrrhenians


The Nine Bows were acting under the leadership of the king of Libya and an associated near-concurrent revolt in Canaan involving Gaza, Ashkelon, Yenoam and Israel. Exactly which peoples were consistently in the Nine Bows is not clear, but present at the battle were the Libyans, some neighboring Meshwesh, and possibly a separate revolt in the following year involving peoples from the eastern Mediterranean, including the Kheta (or Hittites), or Syrians, and (in the Israel Stele) for the first time in history, the Israelites. In addition to them, the first lines of the Karnak inscription include some sea peoples,[22] which must have arrived in the Western Delta or from Cyrene by ship:
-i, Ekwesh, [B]Teresh, Lukka, Sherden, Shekelesh, Northerners coming from all lands.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_peoples

hm, Libya was called Cyrene

anyway, one of sea people that are identified are Lukka

The earliest ethnic group[8] later considered among the Sea Peoples is believed to be attested in Egyptian hieroglyphics on the Byblos obelisk found in the Obelisk Temple at Byblos. The inscription mentions kwkwn son of rwqq, transliterated as Kukunnis, son of Lukka, "the Lycian".[9] The date is given variously as 2000 or 1700 BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_peoples

so, let's sea what can we find out about Lycians


Ancient Egyptian records describe the Lycians as allies of the Hittites. Lycia may have been a member state of the Assuwa league of ca. 1250 BC, appearing as 'Lukka or Luqqa. After the collapse of the Hittite Empire, Lycia emerged as an independent "Neo-Hittite" kingdom. According to Herodotus, Lycia was named after Lycus, the son of Pandion II of Athens. The region was never unified into a single territory in antiquity, but remained a tightly-knit confederation of fiercely independent city-states.
The eternal fires of Chimera in Lycia which provides the setting for the Chimera myth.
Lycia was frequently mentioned by Homer as an ally of Troy. In Homer's Iliad, the Lycian contingent was said to have been led by two esteemed warriors: Sarpedon (son of Zeus and Laodamia) and Glaucus (son of Hippolochus). Elsewhere in Greek mythology, the Lycian kingdom was said to have been ruled by another Sarpedon, a Cretan exile and brother of the king Minos; Sarpedon's followers were called Termilae, and they founded a dynasty after their conquest of a people called the Milyans. As with the founding of Miletus, this mythical story implies a Cretan connection to the settlement of Asia Minor. Lycia appears elsewhere in Greek myth, such as in the story of Bellerophon, who eventually succeeded to the throne of the Lycian king Iobates (or Amphianax).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia

so, somehow both legendary leaders of Lycia carried name Sarpedon...

I think this might have been a title in fact... Sarpe don - ruler of Serbs
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_(honorific) for explanation of Don being at first used for royalty, select nobles.. don is similar to ban, pan and zupan which are titles of rulers among (south) Slavic tribes in middle age)

perhaps, just a coincidence but area of Croatia that was at least since Ottomans invasion till recent war in 1990s settled with Serbs carries name Lika...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika

how yes no 2
18-11-10, 23:16
Herodotus wrote in his work "The Histories"
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.
the movement of Lydians from Lydia in Asia minor to Italy where they became Etruscans is based on archeology and DNA study of Tuscan cattle breeds estimated to have happened around 1200BC....
(Pellecchia et al., The mystery of Etruscan origins: novel clues from Bos taurus mitochondrial DNA, Proceedings ofthe Royal Society Series B, vol. 274 (2007), pp. 1175–1179.)
sea people attacked Hattusa around 1180 BC, Egypt in 1175 BC...
those are comparable times with estimated settlement of Etruscans from Lydia in Asia Minor to Italy....
Lydia had capital Sardis (also Sparda, which is sometimes used instead of Lydia)

The endonym Śfard (the name the Lydians called themselves) survives in bilingual and trilingual stone-carved notices of the Achaemenid Empire: the satrapy of Sparda (Old Persian), Aramaic Saparda, Babylonian Sapardu, Elamitic Išbarda.[1] These in the Greek tradition are associated with Sardis, the capital city of Gyges, constructed in the 7th century BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia
Etruscans called themselves Raseni

In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization



In fact, according to chronology bellow, 18 years old hunger (cause of movement of Lydians to Italy where they became Etruscans) started at 1159 BC, thus after the movement of sea people... the attacks of sea people on Egypt were going on in parallel with Troyan war or before (1194BC) and after it (1175BC)... Hittite empire falls only 4 years after Troy??...



1197 BC: Ramses III of Egypt repels attacks by northern invaders (the "Sea-Peoples").
1194 BC: The beginning of the legendary Trojan War.
1186 BC: End of the Nineteenth dynasty of Egypt, start of the Twentieth Dynasty.
April 24, 1184 BC: Traditional date for the fall of Troy, Asia Minor to the Mycenaeans and their allies. This marks the end of the Trojan War of Greek mythology.
1180 BC: Collapse of Hittite power in Anatolia with the destruction of their capital Hattusa.
April 16, 1178 BC: A solar eclipse may mark the return of Odysseus, legendary King of Ithaca, to his kingdom after the Trojan War. He discovers a number of suitors competing to marry his wife Penelope, whom they believe to be a widow, in order to succeed him on the throne. He organizes their slaying and re-establishes himself on the throne.
1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
c. 1150 BC: End of Egyptian rule in Palestine. Rameses VI last Pharaoh acknowledged.
c. 1120 BC: destruction of Troy VIIb1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC


Dates of the Trojan War

Since this war was considered among the ancient Greeks as either the last event of the mythical age or the first event of the historical age, several dates are given for the fall of Troy. They usually derive from genealogies of kings. Ephorus gives 1135 BC,[199] Sosibius 1172 BC,[200] Eratosthenes 1184 BC/1183 BC,[201] Timaeus 1193 BC,[202] the Parian marble 1209 BC/1208 BC,[203] Dicaearchus 1212 BC,[204] Herodotus around 1250 BC,[205] Eretes 1291 BC,[206] while Douris 1334 BC.[207] As for the exact day Ephorus gives 23/24 Thargelion (July 6 or 7), Hellanicus 12 Thargelion (May 26)[208] while others give the 23rd of Sciroforion (July 7) or the 23rd of Ponamos (October 7).
The glorious and rich city Homer describes was believed to be Troy VI by many twentieth century authors, destroyed in 1275 BC, probably by an earthquake. Its follower Troy VIIa, destroyed by fire at some point during the 1180s BC, was long considered a poorer city, but since the excavation campaign of 1988 it has risen to the most likely candidate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War

how yes no 2
19-11-10, 02:09
Between 1206 and 1150 BCE, the cultural collapse of the Mycenaean kingdoms, the Hittite Empire in Anatolia and Syria,[1] and the Egyptian Empire in Syria and Canaan[2] interrupted trade routes and extinguished literacy. In the first phase of this period, almost every city between Troy and Gaza was violently destroyed, and often left unoccupied thereafter: examples include Hattusa, Mycenae, Ugarit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse


The Greek Dark Age or Ages (ca. 1200 BCE–800 BCE) are terms which have regularly been used to refer to the period of Greek history from the presumed Dorian invasion and end of the Mycenaean Palatial civilization around 1200 BCE, to the first signs of the Greek city-states in the 9th century BCE.
...
From around 1200 BCE, the palace centres and outlying settlements of the Mycenaeans' highly organized culture began to be abandoned or destroyed, and by 1050 BCE, the recognisable features of Mycenaean culture had disappeared. Many explanations attribute the fall of the Mycenaean civilization and the Bronze Age collapse to climatic or environmental catastrophe combined with an invasion by Dorians or by the Sea Peoples or the widespread availability of edged weapons of iron, but no single explanation fits the available archaeological evidence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Dark_Ages

the work bellow finds evidence that set of bronze age civilization were in fact destroyed not by sea people but by series of earthquakes..

http://water.stanford.edu/nur/EndBronzeage.pdf

LeBrok
19-11-10, 03:50
Troy was destroyed and rebuild many times. What the fall of Tory means in this context?

Not many people die in earthquakes. For the whole civilization to fall, usually it has to be a powerful enemy or economic collapse, it might be associated with climate change or not. In earthquakes few people die, and the homes are rebuilt right after. Most of people lived in rural areas in wooden shacks. Easy to rebuild, crops always survive earthquakes, and also herding animals. Earthquakes are very regional affairs, I've never heard of earthquake destroying whole countries. Unless we are talking about city state, but that's a far cry from the whole bronze civilization.

how yes no 2
19-11-10, 23:10
Troy was destroyed and rebuild many times. What the fall of Tory means in this context?
I have no clue...
For me it was completely unexpected chronology... and I can't figure out how does it fit into the sea people context.... btw. Trojan war seems to have been time of big movement of people, as many later ethnic groups of Europe in fact had own legends of moving out of Asia minor after the fall of Troy...
but to conclude that those Troyan war and sea people attacks were connected or part of same wave is a bit difficult at this point... perhaps chronology is wrong... maybe sea people destroyed Willusa as well, while later that archeologically attested event was taken as a fall of Troy... still chronology for fall of Troy does fit well in range given by most historians of ancient Greece..


Not many people die in earthquakes. For the whole civilization to fall, usually it has to be a powerful enemy or economic collapse, it might be associated with climate change or not. In earthquakes few people die, and the homes are rebuilt right after. Most of people lived in rural areas in wooden shacks. Easy to rebuild, crops always survive earthquakes, and also herding animals. Earthquakes are very regional affairs, I've never heard of earthquake destroying whole countries. Unless we are talking about city state, but that's a far cry from the whole bronze civilization.

I agree, but I can also imagine that, when there are strong earthquakes every few months for several years, people want massively to move out of area...
which explains while cities were abandoned and not rebuilt and why cultures as Mycean were slowly declining rather than disappearing over night... in fact, sea people might be people affected by earthquakes moving in search for less shaky ground...

however, I reckon such terrible earthquakes would be remembered in collective memory of people as 18 year hunger from few decades later time is remembered by Lydians...

how yes no 2
20-11-10, 00:59
The Tjekker or Tjeker were one of the Sea Peoples and are known mainly from the story of Wenamun ... they are thought to be the people who developed the port of Dor during the 12th century BCE from a small Bronze Age town to a large city. ...
The origins of Tjeker is uncertain. A possible linguistic connection has been suggested with the Teucri[3][4], a tribe described by ancient sources as inhabiting northwest Anatolia to the south of Troy.[5]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tjeker


In Greek mythology, King Teucer (also Teucrus) was said to have been the son of the river Scamander and of the nymph Idaea. Before the arrival of Dardanus, the land that would come to be called Dardania (and later still the Troad) was known as Teucria and the inhabitants as Teucrians, after Teucer. Batea, King Teucer's daughter, was given in marriage to Dardanus, and after Teucer's death the land came to be known as Dardania. Yet in later times, the people of Troy often referred to themselves as "Teucrians".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Teucer


King Darius was full of wonder both at what they who had watched
the woman told him, and at what he had himself seen. So he commanded
that she should be brought before him. And the woman came; and with
her appeared her brothers, who had been watching everything a little
way off. Then Darius asked them of what nation the woman was; and
the young men replied that they were Paeonians, and she was their
sister. Darius rejoined by asking, "Who the Paeonians were, and in
what part of the world they lived? and, further, what business had
brought the young men to Sardis?" Then the brothers told him they
had come to put themselves under his power, and Paeonia was a
country upon the river Strymon, and the Strymon was at no great
distance from the Hellespont. The Paeonians, they said, were colonists
of the Teucrians from Troy. When they had thus answered his questions,
Darius asked if all the women of their country worked so hard? Then
the brothers eagerly answered, Yes; for this was the very object
with which the whole thing had been done.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herodotus-history.txt
Herodotus - History

Paeonians origin from Teucer
Tjeker are founders of town Dor
could they be Dorians in origin?
in ancient Greece, Dorians are Macedonians (settled just south of Paeonians) and Spartans...


Afterwards he turned his thoughts to the alliance which he had been recommended to contract, and sought to ascertain by inquiry which was the most powerful of the Grecian states. His inquiries pointed out to him two states as pre-eminent above the rest. These were the Lacedaemonians and the Athenians, the former of Doric, the latter of Ionic blood. And indeed these two nations had held from very, early times the most distinguished place in Greece, the being a Pelasgic, the other a Hellenic people, and the one having never quitted its original seats, while the other had been excessively migratory; for during the reign of Deucalion, Phthiotis was the country in which the Hellenes dwelt, but under Dorus, the son of Hellen, they moved to the tract at the base of Ossa and Olympus, which is called Histiaeotis; forced to retire from that region by the Cadmeians, they settled, under the name of Macedni, in the chain of Pindus. Hence they once more removed and came to Dryopis; and from Dryopis having entered the Peloponnese in this way, they became known as Dorians.
What the language of the Pelasgi was I cannot say with any certainty. If, however, we may form a conjecture from the tongue spoken by the Pelasgi of the present day- those, for instance, who live at Creston above the Tyrrhenians, who formerly dwelt in the district named Thessaliotis, and were neighbours of the people now called the Dorians- or those again who founded Placia and Scylace upon the Hellespont, who had previously dwelt for some time with the Athenians- or those, in short, of any other of the cities which have dropped the name but are in fact Pelasgian; if, I say, we are to form a conjecture from any of these, we must pronounce that the Pelasgi spoke a barbarous language. If this were really so, and the entire Pelasgic race spoke the same tongue, the Athenians, who were certainly Pelasgi, must have changed their language at the same time that they passed into the Hellenic body; for it is a certain fact that the people of Creston speak a language unlike any of their neighbours, and the same is true of the Placianians, while the language spoken by these two people is the same; which shows that they both retain the idiom which they brought with them into the countries where they are now settled.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/herodotus-history.txt
Herodotus - History


but Dorian invasion also is estimated to have happened around 1200 BC (btw. no Macedonians in Trojan war, and Sparta might have been originally about Lydia that was known as Sparda)
Dorians are hellenic tribe, while Athenians are Pelasgians in origin...
some theories propose that Dorians arrived much later


The problem is that there are no traces of any Dorians anywhere until the start of the Geometric period at about 950 BC. This simple pottery decoration appears to be correlated with other changes in material culture, such as the introduction of iron weapons and alterations in burial practices from Mycenaean group burials in tholos tombs to individual burials and cremation. These can certainly associated with the historical Dorian settlers, such as those of Sparta in the 10th century BC.[19] However, they appear to have been general over all of Greece; moreover, the new weapons would not have been used in 1200.
The scholars were now faced with the conundrum of an invasion at 1200 but a resettlement at 950. What took the Dorians so long and where were they for several generations? One answer is that the destruction of 1200 was not caused by the Dorians and that the quasi-mythical return of the Heracleidae is to be associated with settlement at Sparta ca. 950. It was a migration easily accomplished in a military vacuum.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion

thus Trojan war might have been in fact pre-helenistic event, that came to ancient Greeks via assimilated Pelasges (Athenians being one of them)


Tjeker and Peleset as Teucer/Paeonians and Pelasges?
perhaps, this is connected to Trojan war afterall...


Greek armies: Abantes, Arcadia, Aetolia, Athens and Salamis, Argos and Tiryns, Boebeans (Thessaly), Boeotia, Crete, Dulichium, Elis, Elone (Thessaly), Enienes, Iolcus (Thessaly), Ithaca, Locris, Magnesia, Meliboea, Minyans, Mycenae and Corinth, Myrmidones of Argos, Oechalia, Ormenius, Pherae, Phylacia, Phocia, Pylos, Rhodes, Sparta, Syme

Trojan armies: Amazons, Adrasteia, Chalybes (Halizones), Colonae, Cicones, Dardania, Ethiopia, Lycia, Maeonia, Miletus, Mysia, Paionia, Pelasgians, Percote, Phrygia, Thrace, Troy, Zeleia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Trojan_War_characters

thus, in Trojan armies are: Lycia (Lukka), Troy & Paionians (Teucer = >Tjekker ?), Pelasgians (=> Peleset)

btw. people that lost the Trojan war seems to have migrated in all directions


According to the mythology outlined by Virgil in the Aeneid, Romulus and Remus were both descendants of Aeneas through their mother Rhea Silvia, making Aeneas progenitor of the Roman people. Some early sources call him their father or grandfather,[2] but considering the commonly accepted dates of the fall of Troy (1184 BC) and the founding of Rome (753 BC), this seems unlikely. The Julian family of Rome, most notably Julius Cæsar and Augustus, traced their lineage to Ascanius and Aeneas, thus to the goddess Aphrodite. Through the Julians, the Palemonids also make this claim. The legendary kings of Britain also trace their family through a grandson of Aeneas, Brutus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas


Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks developed an origin story to connect themselves with peoples of antiquity. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans. An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Sea of Azov and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late fourth century at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Franks, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks

In fact, I wonder if R1b that came to Europe from Asia minor can have something to do with post-Troyan war movement of people... in fact, variance of R1b strongly correlates with position of Troy and its closest neighbourhood...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/bin/pbio.1000285.g001.jpg
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/?tool=pubmed

note that Trojan war might have also happened much before 1200 BC.. but still migration of this R1b was probably much earlier around 8500 years before present

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2799514/bin/pbio.1000285.g004.jpg

... and this type of R1b seems not to be dominant in Italy and Germania where the stories of origin from Troy are more common...


variance of I2a2 is also higer in the same part of Asia minor around Troy... and among Troyan allies we find Amazones (that are legendary female ancestors of Sarmatians) and also Lycians led by Sarpedon, which may explain tribal and place names such as Sarbans, Sherdana, Serbonis...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/images/ejhg2008249f4.jpg

how yes no 2
14-12-10, 01:04
back to Seres/Serian people.. this time let's hear what Seneca knows about them:


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

thus,these people live: near red sea, near Scythians, in Caspian heights among Sarmatians, around Danube, and in far east place where they get silk from...


in the translation bellow instead of Serians, word Seres is used:

Those who
lead ihe wandering Daci, those who hold in subjection,
the borders of the Red Sea, and the sea in many places
looking red, as it were with bright gems; nor those upon
the Caspian mountain ridges, at the approach of the
brave Sarmatians, and may they contend against him,
who with intrepid steps advance upon the glassy Danube
(frozen) and wherever the Seres are found, renowned for
their particular thread (silk) thev bring from that far-off
country—

http://www.archive.org/stream/tentragediessen00senegoog/tentragediessen00senegoog_djvu.txt

also from the same link (10 works of Seneca on same web page):

Take away, slaves, these garments dyed with pur-
ple and ornamented with gold; remove, I command, the
ravishing colors of the Tyrian d^res which adorn those
delicate fabrics, which the Seres *' in their far-off country,
gather from the branches of trees;

Seneca - HIPPOLYTUS



according to Seneca Serians live ungarded from Sarmatians (which indicates very special relationship), but Serians are not one of the Sarmatians,

and their location in Caspian highlands in fact corresponds to position of Serboi/Serbi in Sarmatia Asiatica..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg

Siraces are thought to be same as Serboi...


Serians are also not Scythians, but they rule/lead Scythians/Dacians... they also dare to cross frozen Danube, which places them in central/east Europe

btw.note that one translation mentions Dacians other Scythians... interesting thought: if we know that Goths were as well called Scythians by some authors, and that Dacians as self-identification sounds pretty much the same as Deutch...

anyway, spread of I2 and Seneca seems to tell the same story

Sherdana, Seres, Serians, Siraces, Serboi, Serbs ..


they bring silk from their far-off land, which corresponds to Seres people in north-west China...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica

they rule around the Red sea, which identifies them as likely to origin from sea people or Sherdana...

in fact they didnot just attack Egypt and failed, according to Seneca they ruled on Red sea...

so who were them?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaeans


The Sabaeans or Sabeans (Arabic: السبأيون‎ as-Saba’iyūn) were an ancient people speaking an Old South Arabian language who lived in what is today Yemen, in the south west of the Arabian Peninsula. Some Sabaeans also lived in D'mt, located in northern Ethiopia and Eritrea, due to their hegemony over the Red Sea[1].
Some scholars suggest a link between the Sabaeans and the Biblical land of Sheba.[1]


The ancient Sabaean Kingdom established power in the early 1st millennium BC. In the 1st century BC it was conquered by the Himyarites, but after the disintegration of the first Himyarite empire of the Kings of Saba' and Dhu-Raydan the Middle Sabaean Kingdom reappeared in the early 2nd century. It was finally conquered by the Himyarites in the late 3rd century. Its capital was Ma'rib. The kingdom was located along the strip of desert called Sayhad by medieval Arab geographers and that is called now Ramlat al-Sab`atayn.
The Sabaean people were South Arabian people. Each of these had regional kingdoms in ancient Yemen, with the Minaeans in the north along the Red sea, the Sabeans on the south western tip, stretching from the highlands to the sea, the Qatabanians to the east of them and the Hadramites east of them.
The Sabaeans, like the other Yemenite kingdoms of the same period, were involved in the extremely lucrative spice trade, especially frankincense and myrrh.[2]
They left behind many inscriptions in the monumental Musnad (Old South Arabian) alphabet, as well as numerous documents in the cursive Zabur script.


Sabeans established power in times mediatelly following attacks of sea people... hm...
Sabeans position matches the one of mythical kingdom of Sheba ruled by even more famous queen of Sheba
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba


Known to the Ethiopian people as Makeda or Maqueda (ማክዳ mākidā),[3] this queen has been called a variety of names by different peoples in different times. To King Solomon of Israel she was the Queen of Sheba. In Islamic tradition she was called Balqis or Balkis by the Arabians, who say she came from the city of Sheba, also called Mareb, in Yemen or Arabia Felix. The Roman historian Josephus calls her Nicaule. She is thought to have been born on January 5, sometime in the 10th century BC.



In Islamic tradition queen of Sheba was called Balqis or Balkis by the Arabians, which perfectly explains why during the Arab influenced Ottoman empire the area settled with Serbs got name Balkan

In fact, same queen of Sheba was known as Makeda as well, which might indicate a link to ancient Macedonians and Dorians in general... ( see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362463&postcount=48 )


Sherdana, Seres, Serians, Siraces, Serboi, Serbs, Sabeans?, Sheba?..

Regulus
14-12-10, 15:44
That was an interesting article. Would you summarize this by saying that Serbians (and possibly other Slavs) were established in the Balkans at the time of the "Sea Peoples"?

how yes no 2
14-12-10, 21:11
That was an interesting article. Would you summarize this by saying that Serbians (and possibly other Slavs) were established in the Balkans at the time of the "Sea Peoples"?

I do not have enough data to claim that Serbs were in Balkans in times of "sea peoples".... original idea is that "sea peoples" might have started their journey from Balkan, but that is just a hypotheses, while other things I wrote about later on are on much firmer ground...

Regulus
15-12-10, 17:14
It could very well be possible that the root word from which Serb was derived was common among IE peoples. “Tuath” or “Teuton”, referring more or less to tribe. “Arya”-type based words referring to “the people” or “us”, etc. do occur with relative frequency across the IE board. “Ser” or “Shar” could well be a similar thing. The latter two may even hearken back to “Arya”-type words.
Shardana, who are held by many to have come from Sardinia, fought for the Egyptians.
It would not be hard to see these types as representative of IE war bands out seeking adventure, loot, recognition among their people, etc.

For the bulk of the makeup of the “Sea Peoples, (Not to exclude all others that may have participated) I am inclined to go with displaced Achaean Greeks. The timing of the Dorian invasions, appearance in history of the “Sea Peoples” who were only repelled after considerable effort of Egypt, along with the rather sudden establishment of the Philistine state, seem to come together in an all too nice fit not to be a strong probability.
I would add that the Philistines are decribed as having the use of iron, maybe new to them but still a step ahead of their Semitic neighbors, who still have bronze. Heroic single-combat events were not unknown to them either. The Sea Peoples appear to follow a path from Greece over to Asia Minor, down the coast, get beaten by Egypt, and then probably settle in the place later to be named Palestine (Latin translation of Philistine) by the Romans. This was very possibly done in an effort to erase as much as they could of Jewish connections to the land after the revolts.

The southern migrations of the Dorians had a profound if temporary effect in the Eastern Mediterranean. Not all Achaeans stayed on to live as second-class citizens. Many presumably had the resources to start afresh and kind of go a-Viking, meting out the same treatment to others as the Dorians had done to them. Both Dorians and Achaaeans in fact had the IE culture where that was common.

how yes no 2
15-12-10, 21:53
It could very well be possible that the root word from which Serb was derived was common among IE peoples. “Tuath” or “Teuton”, referring more or less to tribe. “Arya”-type based words referring to “the people” or “us”, etc. do occur with relative frequency across the IE board. “Ser” or “Shar” could well be a similar thing. The latter two may even hearken back to “Arya”-type words.
Shardana, who are held by many to have come from Sardinia, fought for the Egyptians.

assumption about link between Shardana and Sardinia is made and used by many authors, however only reason stated by authors is that it sounds similar.... (btw. lake in Egypt named after "sea people" is Serbonian bog or Sirbonis)

word Serb might be derived from some commonly used word and be widespread tribal name of different people, but point is not in tribal name Serb only, but also in haplogroup I spread correlating with spread of "sea peoples" ....

Sardinians are also haplogroup I, but point is also that Egyptian sources talk (in context of "sea peoples" attack) also about mass settlement of people coming from north with oxes and wagons, and I somehow cannot imagine underwater tunnel from Sardinia to Egypt....

in fact, I would say "sea people" are very likely related to later Sabaeans/Sheba and Palestines, perhaps with Syrians as well.

Question is where did they spread from. Seneca gives clear clue about that by stating that the Red sea Serians, the ones of Serica in silk rich north west China, the ones among Dacians and near Danube, and the ones in Caspian mountains (where we find Serboi tribe) are the same people... together with haplogroup I trace this pinpoints to proto-Serb tribe which seems to have been both brave / warlike and merchant nation...

as for Palestinians, my guess is that they origin from Pelasgues which are pre-hellenic inhabitants of Greece and Balkan...

btw. words Teuton and Aria are not really widespread among IE tribal names...
those words were only widespread after recently being misused in nazi-propaganda

how yes no 2
15-12-10, 22:37
perhaps you do not trust Seneca...
so, let's see where Seres come from according to Jordanes


This land, I say,--namely, Scythia, stretching far and spreading wide,--has on the east the Seres, a race that dwelt at the very beginning of their history on the shore of the Caspian Sea. On the west are the Germans and the river Vistula; on the arctic side, namely the north, it is surrounded by Ocean; on the south by Persis, Albania, Hiberia, Pontus and the farthest channel of the Ister, which is called the Danube all the way from mouth to source. (32)
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

Jordanes - origin and deeds of Goths


Seres thus origin from shores of Caspian sea (which is where Serboi lived)

difference is that Seneca lives in period 1 BC – 65 AD
while Jordanes lives in 6th century

thus, in time between Seneca and Jordanes information about Seres shrinked from being the same as Serians of Red sea, the ones of Caspian mountains and the ones among Dacians and near Danube, to originating from shores of Caspian sea...

Pliny (23 AD – August 25, 79) quotes Aristotle that there are also Seres who live above mount Athos ( in Greece) who live up to 140 years...


Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

thus, Pliny talks about some of Seres living in Balkans... same author talks about Seres in Caspian highlands and quotes Agripa's definition of Caspian area and nations living there


Agrippa in bounding out and limiting the circuit of the Caspian sea, and the regions coasting upon it, togither with them Armenia both the greater and the lesse, namely Eastward with the Ocean of the Seres, Westward with the mountains of Caucasus, on the South side with the hill Taurus, and finally on the North with the Scithian Ocean, hath written,
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny6.html

in fact regarding the Seres who live upon mount Athos it is the best to research which people populated the area...


Herodotus tells us that Pelasgians from the island of Lemnos populated the peninsula, then called Acte or Akte. (Herodotus, VII:22)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Athos

in fact, this is the clue about non-Dorian I2a2 in Greece that is found in Lesbos area, that I was puzzled with in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362463&postcount=48

it comes from Pelasgians, that is from Seres !!

btw. regarding Palestines whom I think to origin from Pelasgians


The Greek toponym Palestini (Παλαιστίνη), with which the Arabic Filastin (فلسطين) is cognate, first occurs in the work of the Greek historian Herodotus, active in the middle of the 5th century BCE, where it denotes generally[22] the coastal land from Phoenicia down to Egypt.[23][24] Herodotus also employs the term as an ethnonym, as when he speaks of the 'Syrians of Palestine' or 'Palestinian-Syrians',[25] an ethnically amorphous group he distinguishes from the Phoenicians referring to the Aramaeic Samaritans led by Sanbalat and appointed by the Persian kings and the Arabs in Jerusalem referred to also by Ezra (the Bible).[26] The word bears comparison to a congeries of ethnonyms in Semitic languages, Ancient Egyptian Plst or flst, Assyrian as Palastu, and the Hebraic as Plishtim, the latter term used in the Bible to signify the Philistines.[27]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

all this is in accordance with spread of haplogroup I along sea coasts of Levant and than into west part of Saudi Arabia peninsula.
I think it is very likely that we can attribute this spread to "sea peoples" who mixed with local populations giving Syrians, Syrrians of Palestine (or Palestines), and Sabaeans/Sheba

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

timeline:
- around 1175 BC spread of "sea people" brings down many previous kingdoms in Asia minor and Levant... Egyptian sources record it is not just a military contest, but a massive settlement wave...
it is known that in Egypt, the Serbonian bog or Sirbonis is named after "sea peoples"
- Queen of Sheba born somewhere in 10th century
- Kingdom of Saba appears in history records between 9th century BCE and CE 275
- During the second millennium BCE, Syria was occupied successively by Canaanites, Phoenicians, and Arameans as part of the general disruptions associated with the Sea Peoples; the Phoenicians settled along the coastline of these area as well as in the west (Now Lebanon & The current Syrian coast), in the area already known for its cedars.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Syria
- Palestines (name first recorded in 5th century BC for Syrians of Palestine)
- in 1st century AD Seneca states that Serians of Red sea (clearly about kingdom of Saba), Serians of Caspian highlands (around the times when tribe Serboi recorded there), Serians in Europe (near Danube and amongst Dacians) and Serians in far east producing silk (clear reference to Seres and land of Serica) are all the same people..

obviously Syrians are not mentioned among Serians in 1st century AD... in fact, area of Syria is part of Phoenicia before, during and after the period of "sea peoples", and Phoenicians were likely carriers of J2 haplogroup mostly
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362384&postcount=78

I am curious whether I in Levant is in fact I2a1, which would explain its spread in north Africa and south west Europe as related to Phoenicians... at the moment I expect it is more likely I2a2 or I2*...

how yes no 2
16-12-10, 01:34
The term invasion is used generally in the literature concerning the period to mean the documented attacks implying a local or unspecified origin. An origin outside the Aegean also has been proposed, as in this example by Michael Grant: "There was a gigantic series of migratory waves, extending all the way from the Danube valley to the plains of China."[55]
Such a comprehensive movement is associated with more than one people or culture; instead, a "disturbance" happens, according to Finley:[56]
A large-scale movement of people is indicated ... the original centre of disturbance was in the Carpatho-Danubian region of Europe. ... It appears ... to have been ... pushing in different directions at different times.
If different times are allowed on the Danube, they are not in the Aegean: "all this destruction must be dated to the same period about 1200."[56]
The following movements are compressed by Finley into the 1200 BC window: the Dorian Invasion, the attacks of the Sea Peoples, the formation of Philistine kingdoms in the Levant and the fall of the Hittite Empire, when in fact, those events required at least a few hundred years.
The archaeological evidence is treated in the same way. Robert Drews[57] presents a map showing the destruction sites of 47 fortified major settlements, which he terms "Major Sites Destroyed in the Catastrophe". They are concentrated in the Levant, with some in Greece and Anatolia. The questions of dates and agents of destruction remain for the most part unanswered in detail, without which no single catastrophe or related catastrophes can be postulated beyond the level of pure speculation.
The invaders, that is, the replacement cultures at those sites, apparently made no attempt to retain the cities' wealth but instead built new settlements of a materially simpler cultural and less complex economic level atop the ruins. For example, no one appropriated the palace and rich stores at Pylos, but all were burned up, and the successors (whomever they were) moved in over the ruins with plain pottery and simple goods. This demonstrates a cultural discontinuity.
Whether all the discontinuities were sufficiently contemporaneous to warrant a theory of great waves of invasion another question. Ethnic identities from the Danube and beyond are in short supply in the records.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#cite_ref-54

Regulus
16-12-10, 16:18
btw. words Teuton and Aria are not really widespread among IE tribal names...
those words were only widespread after recently being misused in nazi-propaganda


Well, this one isn't too hard to put away quickly. The two words mentioned above, their use to described one's clan, and their cognates are relatively common among IE peoples. The fact that Nazis and others made wildly exaggerated claims doesn't negate that at all. One problem that we see since the Nazis were swept from power (Thankfully so) is a knee-jerk reaction the other way - trying to paste over the whole IE migration thing and attributing what happened to cultural diffusion or other people altogether.


How Yes or Know, I am suspecting that I "rub you the wrong way". I like the discussions , but I try to add my points in manner that is as non-confrontational as possible. If I fail in this, please let me know


At this point, without marshalling all kinds of data, I will submit that the displaced Achaeans are the most likely candidates for most of the Sea Peoples. Perhaps you will be able to swing me over to your side at some point.

how yes no 2
16-12-10, 21:40
Well, this one isn't too hard to put away quickly. The two words mentioned above, their use to described one's clan, and their cognates are relatively common among IE peoples.

as far as I know there was single Teuton tribe in history and single Aryan tribe as well... if you know more tribes that carried name Teuton and Aryan please identify them...

only Aryans in history were the ones in ancient times in India...

Teuton tribe is Germanic tribe known from historical records of 1st and 2nd century AD, it is gone from history after participating in zig-zag conquest together with Cimbri

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/14/Cimbrians_and_Teutons_invasions.svg/220px-Cimbrians_and_Teutons_invasions.svg.png

sometimes the term is used to denote Germanic tribes in general, same as name derived from Suebi is used in Slavic countries for Germans...
but there were no zillion tribes named alike to Teutons, there was only that single tribe.. so, no, the tribal name was not widespread among IE folk...




How Yes or Know, I am suspecting that I "rub you the wrong way". I like the discussions , but I try to add my points in manner that is as non-confrontational as possible. If I fail in this, please let me know
no, I tend to be somewhat aggressive in discussions... do not take that seriously... that's merely a style of expression issue...


At this point, without marshalling all kinds of data, I will submit that the displaced Achaeans are the most likely candidates for most of the Sea Peoples. Perhaps you will be able to swing me over to your side at some point.
movement of sea peoples is about more than single tribe... general direction of movement is from north towards south....so it is quite possible that there were Achaeans there as well...what confuses me the most is overlapping of the timeline of sea peoples conquest with Trojan war...and overlapping of some names among sea peoples with tribes that lost in Trojan war (Pelast/Pelasgues, Tjekker / Teucri (Troyans), Lukka (Lycians)...)

Regulus
17-12-10, 01:02
Ok How Yes or No, good to hear that we are Ok. Let’s refer to you as being enthusiastic, not aggressive.

Firstly, I am aware that Aryans were a subgroup of Iranians peoples who in turn are a subgroup of IE peoples. So, for the record, I am not a 19th century racial theorist.

On the word Tuath- it refers to clan or tribe and is seen to my knowledge in the West.
Root word “Teuta” finds its way into German with Deutsch, Teutonic, Theod. North Germanic with Tysk.. Italian with Tedesco. Latin Tribus. Irish Tuath. Lithuanian Tauto.
The latter may be from German Baltic colonization.

The root word “Ar” or “Aryo” is frequent in Iranian tongues. (Mentioned in Avesta, by Darius I, etc.) Some hold that it finds its way in to Irish “Eire” or “aire”/ Greek ”Aristos” or possibly “harma”/ Latin “ordo” I come across many meanings given such as referring to skillfully, or assembling or both. The Aryans (the group that went to India) seemed to have used it mostly to mean “us” .Various explanations given include that it referred to chariots (like “harma” and/or that those who used the vehicles were distinct or considered themselves nobles. Thus the apparent use to refer to "us".

I don’t want this to set off a chain reaction. Help and input are welcomed, though. Can Marianne or Iapodos help with the Greek? The gross abuses of the formerly mentioned 19th century guys and even worse Nazis, in my opinion, caused a knee-jerk reaction that resulted in wholesome and honest inquiries or ideas being cast aside.

My whole (and only) point in bringing it up was the mentioning by How Yes or No of so many peoples/tribes with names containing “er’ or “ar” in the earlier post. I only desired to share a possibility, not stomp all over someone’s work. It looked too good to be coincidence. I fear that often these posts get 'off track". If one doesn't think that shardana, seres, serians, siraces, serboi, serbs, sarbans, or sherden, may contain a common denominator root word then that is OK. I never intended to prove anything, just to offer up a thought after reading your post.

Like I said, I am open to hear of possible alternatives for displaced Achaeans when we speak of "Sea Peoples". I am fully aware that they were not one tribe. My point there had been that they were likely the greatest component.

how yes no 2
18-12-10, 00:02
On the word Tuath- it refers to clan or tribe and is seen to my knowledge in the West.
Root word “Teuta” finds its way into German with Deutsch, Teutonic, Theod. North Germanic with Tysk.. Italian with Tedesco. Latin Tribus. Irish Tuath. Lithuanian Tauto.
The latter may be from German Baltic colonization.

similarly, Slavic people use name derived from Suebi for Germans (Svabe), besides the official name that describes Germans as mute / not speaking people (Nemci)

this says that main Germanic tribe in contact with people from whom Slavs origin are Suebi, while for Italians, Irish?, and Balts those are Teutons...
but the name has clear single source...

so, with your examples, you actually enforce my argument instead of weaking it...

what I claimed is that all those names origin from single tribe and was used for people originating from that tribe later on, with some generalization to related tribes... in this case clear origin is Germanic Teuton tribe who is attested in history in 1st and 2nd century AD.

my argument is that there never existed many or even multiple tribes of unrelated origin carrying Teuton name to use that as an argument to claim that all tribes with Serb-like tribal names are probably unrelated... As I said Seneca made clear relation between tribes carrying Serb-alike names, spread of haplogroup I (I2?) indicates relation as well...





The root word “Ar” or “Aryo” is frequent in Iranian tongues. (Mentioned in Avesta, by Darius I, etc.) Some hold that it finds its way in to Irish “Eire” or “aire”/ Greek ”Aristos” or possibly “harma”/ Latin “ordo” I come across many meanings given such as referring to skillfully, or assembling or both. The Aryans (the group that went to India) seemed to have used it mostly to mean “us” .Various explanations given include that it referred to chariots (like “harma” and/or that those who used the vehicles were distinct or considered themselves nobles. Thus the apparent use to refer to "us".

yes, but that is much later in history than Aryans...
Aryan was identical with Iranian, and all IE people were Iranian (from Iran) in origin (if you go long enough in past)
again, there is a clear common source of the name...



If one doesn't think that shardana, seres, serians, siraces, serboi, serbs, sarbans, or sherden, may contain a common denominator root word then that is OK. I never intended to prove anything, just to offer up a thought after reading your post.
it is possible that some of those tribal names are unrelated... however, I see strong indication that they are related in writings of Seneca and in trail of haplogroup I...

Sherdana might indeed be related to proto-Sardinians, but they are I2a1 haplogroup and thus show distant (currently estimated to time 10 000 years before present) common origin with proto-Serbs who are I2a2, which indicates that tribal name origins from same source...

stretch of haplogroup I (most likely I2 and I believe I2a2) down the Levant and into west part of Arabian peninsula coincides with spread of tribal names Syrian/ Sabaeans/Sheba/Saba
while in Egypt lake named after "Sea peoples" is Serbonian bog... this is very strong indication for my claims...

stretch of haplogroup I in arc from India to China coincides with spread of tribal names Sarbans and Seres... Now, Seneca claims that Serians of Serica (Seres), Serians of red sea (Sabaeans), Serians of Caspian mountains (Serboi) and Serians of Europe (proto-Serbs?) are same people....

this, all together, is too much facts pointing into same direction to be discarded as coincidence...



Like I said, I am open to hear of possible alternatives for displaced Achaeans when we speak of "Sea Peoples". I am fully aware that they were not one tribe. My point there had been that they were likely the greatest component.

What I said is that Achaeans might have been (and in fact are likely to have been) one of the sea peoples (namely Akwesh/Ekwesh), but that sea peoples seems to has been about several (perhaps culturally unrelated) big tribes or proto-nations. I easily can guess that among them were Achaeans as Akwesh, Lycians as Lukka, Pelasgues as Pelast and probabbly proto-Serb related tribes as Sherdana... Sherdana are related to sea attacks, but I claim that those were attacks over Red sea whose controllers later became Sheba /Sabeans
position of those people coincides with spread of haplogroup I in west part of Arabian peninsula....

I am intrigued with possibility that Dorian Greeks and Pelasgues might have been also related to haplogroup I2a2 as proto-Serbs...


however, I have problems to imagine epic Troyan war next to Hittite state while it seems to me (correct me if I am wrong) that neither Hittite were mentioned by Homer, nor Trojan war, as epic monumental 10 year long battle, was mentioned in historical records of the Hittite which was strongest nearby country and which is according to chronology supposed to have collapsed few years after Troyan war and leaving some historical records from the times preceding its collapse... that is puzzling for me... so, I think that something might be wrong with dating or location of Troyan war... perhaps with location... as most often used dating seems to correlate well with mention of total eclipse of sun in story of travel of Odysseus (or Ulysses) after the Troyan war...

btw. there is in fact a Mexican philogogist Roberto Salinas Price who argues that actual Troy was in Hercegovina on Neretva river and that Homer's work was not originally made in Greek but in proto-Slavic languages

in fact, Homer was blind person who was singing epic songs... same cultural phenomena of blind people travelling and earning for living by singing epic poems about historic events (texts of songs are transferred from one generation to next) we have much later among Serbs...

e.g. Serbian epic poems were in fact written down by Vuk Karadzic (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Stefanovi%C4%87_Karad%C5%BEi%C4%87 - inventor of Serbian 100% phonetic alphabet) who collected and written down lot of Serbian epic & lyric songs, stories, fairy tales and riddles, after hearing them from number of blind guslars (gulse is instrument explained here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gusle) , one of them being Filip Visnjic http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filip_Vi%C5%A1nji%C4%87

I do wonder if there was such a cultural phenomena among modern Greeks of blind people earning for living by travelling and telling epic songs about history events? It may as well be the case that this cultural phenomena origin from Greeks or other native inhabitants of Balkans, and was spread among Serbs only after settling in Balkans

Regulus
18-12-10, 01:28
OK I am very confused now. What exactly was I supposedly trying to weaken with your argument? I was trying to add or share possibilities, not prove you wrong.

The only true difference in what I was saying was that Achaean Greeks are a strong possibility for the Sea Peoples. It appears to go against whatever you may be "driving at", so I will refrain from further comments. Note though, that many historians do believe this to be likely.

The only thing that I will need to refute is your position on the Iranian peoples as you reversed part of the equation. We both agree where the Aryans were a subgroup of Iranians. You reversed, though, their relationship with other IE peoples.
Indo-Iranian, Celto-Italic (possibly Germanic with them or separate), Thraco-Cimmerian, Balto-Slavic, Hellenic, and possibly Illyrian are major groups that developed out of the Proto IE language group. To what extent they are ethnically tied is of course for DNA to decide.
So, Iranian peoples developed out of the Proto-IE people, linguistic group, or both just like the other groups mentioned here. They are not the base group themselves. You appeared to have the Iranian group as the base group with other IE major groups developing out of Iranian. That is backwards.

Regulus
18-12-10, 01:33
One last thought for How Yes or No; Is it possible that your positions are based on an assumption or belief that Slavic peoples were in the Balkans in ancient/classical times?
That may explain your apparent intentions. If this is correct, then maybe it would be a good idea to start a thread on that topic so that we can discuss that point directly as opposed to going around in circles. If I guessed wrongly here, then I apologize.

how yes no 2
18-12-10, 01:48
OK I am very confused now. What exactly was I supposedly trying to weaken with your argument? I was trying to add or share possibilities, not prove you wrong.

you wanted to use argument of wide spread names Aryans and Teutons to show that unrelated people may carry same tribal names, and that thus all Serb-like names are probably unrelated. My point is that there is clear single source of Teuton name, and clear single source of Aryan name.


The only true difference in what I was saying was that Achaean Greeks are a strong possibility for the Sea Peoples. It appears to go against whatever you may be "driving at", so I will refrain from further comments. Note though, that many historians do believe this to be likely.
oh, but if you have read carefully, you would see that I believe that as well, but not for all "sea peoples". For Akwesh only...



The only thing that I will need to refute is your position on the Iranian peoples as you reversed part of the equation. We both agree where the Aryans were a subgroup of Iranians. You reversed, though, their relationship with other IE peoples.
origin of the word is the same Iran = Aryan



Indo-Iranian, Celto-Italic (possibly Germanic with them or separate), Thraco-Cimmerian, Balto-Slavic, Hellenic, and possibly Illyrian are major groups that developed out of the Proto IE language group. To what extent they are ethnically tied is of course for DNA to decide.
yes, but that is pure purpose of this part of forum and this thread... to look into genetics in order to investigate different scenarios for distant history...
if you want to leave it to professional genetic scientists, than I suggest you to ask from admins to close whole genetics part of this forum... or to forbid people (Maciamo the admin being one of them) to try to put hypothesis about interpretation of genetic data in context of history events...


So, Iranian peoples developed out of the Proto-IE people, linguistic group, or both just like the other groups mentioned here. They are not the base group themselves. You appeared to have the Iranian group as the base group with other IE major groups developing out of Iranian. That is backwards.
I do not talk about linguistic there.... PIE is just side effect of the spread of people...
all people origin from Africa...
to Europe (that was under ice during all ice ages) they came mostly via Iran and from Iran...


One last thought for How Yes or No; Is it possible that your positions are based on an assumption or belief that Slavic peoples were in the Balkans in ancient/classical times?
That may explain your apparent intentions. If this is correct, then maybe it would be a good idea to start a thread on that topic so that we can discuss that point directly as opposed to going around in circles. If I guessed wrongly here, then I apologize.

that is not my assumption, but it is not unlikely at all...
we know that Balkan tribes Thracians and Dacians were satem speaking people... now, satem speaking people in Europe of today are only Slavs, Balts and Albanians, and further you go in past more those people are the same... thus a claim (that I didnot make) that proto-Slavs lived in Balkan is not that far-fetched fantasy as you might think...

btw. here is nice link about Troy being in fact in Herzegovina
http://www.homer.com.mx/index.html

Regulus
18-12-10, 02:21
I did not try to make any widespread argument. I only suggested that the frequency of "er" and "ar" in tribal names may not have been coincidence.

I told you I am out of the game on this subject as it went nowhere.

I agree that Achaean were not the only Sea Peoples. I only held that they were the largest group.

Let’s not get into lecturing on IE people, IE speaking people, etc. I have little problem asking questions of those who have a lot to add but I would stick to asking you about Haplogroups as they appear to be your strongpoint.

It looks like we have found your purpose. I'll tell you what - I will back off for now and within two weeks or so I will start a thread on locations of Proto-Slavs and Slavs if you have not done so already.

how yes no 2
18-12-10, 02:41
I agree that Achaean were not the only Sea Peoples. I only held that they were the largest group.
why do you think that?
any proof for that claim, or any indication why you believe that was the case?


It looks like we have found your purpose. I'll tell you what - I will back off for now and within two weeks or so I will start a thread on locations of Proto-Slavs and Slavs if you have not done so already.

nope, I think that you have problem of trying to look at distant history through the eyes of cultures and languages existing today...

I do not even claim that proto-Serbs were the same as proto-Slavic people...
I just pinpoint to the obvious - to the fact that spread of haplogroup I and especially I2 correlates with spread of Serb-like tribal names...

as for culture and linguistics, in some parts of haplgorup I2 history, they might have even been Greek related... e.g. in Caucasus, Siraces (thought to be the same as Serboi) are considered most Hellenic or hellenized of all Sarmatians.

my posts are not about culture and linguistics, but about correlation between spread of tribal names and genetics...it is not about culture and language as those are for most nations rather recently obtained and prone to change easily...

to help you understand how absurd is it to speak of distant past (e.g. 12th century BC or around 3150 years before present which is when "sea peoples" conquest happened) in terms of language groups existing today, I will just remind you that
today, latin America, Spain, Portugal, France, Italy and Romania talk with languages that are derived from a language that was 2500 years ago probably spoken only around small village called Rome...

I believe that the same or very alike tribal names very often pinpoint to the same genetic origin....in my opinion, a tribe can gradually change its language, but I believe that tribal names are core of tribes identity and that some primary tribal names tend to be preserved through thousands of years or even tens of thousands of years...

Regulus
18-12-10, 04:48
I am not seeing this to be much in the way of discussion. How about a call for mercy? Give it to me straight and summarize it - What is your opinion
of the R1a and R1b1b2 theories and maps of which I have seen a lot of here? And which group is I2 in your opinion?

Maybe you could explain succinctly what your opinion is on what groups mixed to form the Germans that we know today or what groups mixed in the Balkans to from the Serbs. I am at a loss trying to understand why using the timing of historical events is wrong for me but fine for you.

I get the feeling that you may have an axe to grind against much of what is presented here in this forum. Do you really doubt that I am able to break out books, write down citations, and fire off a mega-long response on the Achaeans? I hope not, because if you did, then what would be the use? Obviously I would be a dolt or naive at best in your eyes to start.
If I wanted to amass a load of data, wouldn't I be better off doing that to prepare for a big college paper?


I'm out. I will start a thread on Slavic origins to invite discussion in around two weeks unless I see one started already.

LeBrok
18-12-10, 06:18
Yep, some of us don't like "how yes no" methodology, and we had disagreements in the past. I had described his method as solving history with a machine gun, but sometimes one can get the target right with it too, right? I guess with time, and genetic testing of ancient peoples, we will know where he was right or not. I admire his passion for history and a good argument. Straight to the point but always in civilized manner. Even if I don't agree, I always read his posts, at least for the amusement and the passion.....oh, the passion.
I'm waiting for Regulus posts about Slavic origin.
Later guys. :)

how yes no 2
18-12-10, 13:08
I am not seeing this to be much in the way of discussion. How about a call for mercy?

Sorry, but that's the way I defend my arguments. I did warn you that I tend to be somewhat aggressive (sharp might be better word) in the way of expressing my attitudes.


Give it to me straight and summarize it - What is your opinion of the R1a and R1b1b2 theories and maps of which I have seen a lot of here?

In context of this thread, I argue that they were not related to movements of sea peoples...
reason is that trace of haplogroup I goes along coast line in direction of sea peoples movement, while R1a in area seems not correlated with I, and R1b does not show traces of spread along coastline of Levant towards west parts of Saudi Arabia...



http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/31/Distribution_Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.svg/300px-Distribution_Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.svg

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251231666063/home/R1a.png

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251231819630/home/R1b.png



And which group is I2 in your opinion?
the reason I talk about I2 is that there is one thing about I2 and its succesor clades (I2a*, I2a1, I2a2, I2b) - their locations are never random but always very strategically chosen - they seem to occupy main trade roots..
.
e,g, if you look at I2* all group memebers at

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215/default.aspx?section=ymap

you can see clearly several strategically placed clusters of I2* stretching accross the area:
1) line from Sicily to Benelux and Denmark
2) area around Black sea (including Thracia and north part of Asia minor) and lines from from Black sea towards Baltic sea and towards Caspian sea
3) Crete
4) Brittany and Britain
5) northwest China



Maybe you could explain succinctly what your opinion is on what groups mixed to form the Germans that we know today or what groups mixed in the Balkans to from the Serbs. I am at a loss trying to understand why using the timing of historical events is wrong for me but fine for you.

sure, but not on this topic...


Do you really doubt that I am able to break out books, write down citations, and fire off a mega-long response on the Achaeans? I hope not, because if you did, then what would be the use? Obviously I would be a dolt or naive at best in your eyes to start.

right...
it is only naive and dolt (retarded) people (like me I guess) who bother to find evidence for their claims about history in writings of ancient historians...

Reinaert
18-12-10, 15:42
The root word “Ar” or “Aryo” is frequent in Iranian tongues. (Mentioned in Avesta, by Darius I, etc.) Some hold that it finds its way in to Irish “Eire” or “aire”/ Greek ”Aristos” or possibly “harma”/ Latin “ordo” I come across many meanings given such as referring to skillfully, or assembling or both. The Aryans (the group that went to India) seemed to have used it mostly to mean “us” .Various explanations given include that it referred to chariots (like “harma” and/or that those who used the vehicles were distinct or considered themselves nobles. Thus the apparent use to refer to "us".



Well, I know that the old name for Afghanistan is Ariana.
There are still people in Afghanistan (Hazara) that speak Farsi.
The correct name for Iran is Persia, what is derived from Farsi. (The language of Persia)

The name Iran is based on the wrong idea that all Persians are "Arians".
Propaganda from the time Adolf Hitler spoke about the Arians as the master race.
People in Persia bought that bullshit, and named their country Iran.
Which in fact would mean.. "Land or the Arians".

While Aghanistan had that name.. Ariana.
But was changed into Afghanistan when the Pashtun took over the power in the country.

Regulus
18-12-10, 16:38
Actually you are reasonably correct about the name of modern-day Iran.

We know that it had gone by the name of Persia for a long time and that that same name kept rising up, especially after it had shaken off foreign rule. Why not, its a good name.

The modern name of the nation-state of Iran seems to have come from a desire to draw a closer connection to the original IE group of Iranians, not the Aryans themselves. It may also have been to shake off the mental picture that much of the world would equate the new state. They likely did not want to remind anyone the 19th century state that was backward, corrupt, and subject to foreign rule. They hoped that it would convey the idea of a new modern state that was connected to its oldest roots.

They did not buy into anything as far as I know. If they did, I would think that they would have named themselves Ariana or something of that sort since the whole Aryan name was the subject of insane overuse and abuse. The misuse still causes people to be confused. I once spent a half and hour explaining to someone how the "Arian" of Christian heresy had less than nothing to do with the Aryan group. The guy somehow truly thought that since many German tribes were Arian Christians it was because they were "Arians" Try doing into crazy detail about Arius starting that heresy, and then switching gears and explaining that Germans and Aryans are not the same thing.

I had heard that Farsi was still spoken in parts of Afghanistan, but did know how many there were.

how yes no 2
18-12-10, 20:42
this is thread about sea peoples...
I suggest you to continue Aryan discussion on more appropriate thread, e.g. the following one:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26093

Regulus
20-12-10, 16:15
I will read that post. For the record, though, I was never doing an Aryan discussion. I was trying from the beginning to talk with you about your topic. The little comments that I made while doing so kept getting progressively magnified. That was not what I wanted, so I will avoid using that word or any remotely-related word in the future.

how yes no 2
20-12-10, 22:52
I will read that post. For the record, though, I was never doing an Aryan discussion. I was trying from the beginning to talk with you about your topic. The little comments that I made while doing so kept getting progressively magnified. That was not what I wanted, so I will avoid using that word or any remotely-related word in the future.
that's ok Regulus... but please stop trying to talk about what you think is my purpose, whether this or that word or way of telling is ok with me... just focus on topic and not on me...

how yes no 2
22-12-10, 15:01
J2 seems interesting regarding spread of sea peoples...

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

it does go from Asia minor towards south, along sea coasts of Levant, which is direction that sea peoples took

and in general J2 seems to be most sea/water oriented group

R1a and E-V13 in south of Asia minor and in Levant also have interesting spreads...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7a/HgE1b1b1a2.png/800px-HgE1b1b1a2.png

thing is Kosovo Albanians are dominantly E-V13 and do not have at all R1a. They likely origin from Dardanians who are tribe that moved after Trojan war from Asia Minor to Balkan... now, if R1a was already spread all over south of Asia minor they would have had it (as E-V13 comes to Europe via south part of Asia minor which is also part where R1a is present)... as expansion of sea peoples happens short after Trojan war, presence of R1a among sea peoples could have led to the population of south of Asia minor and of Levant with R1a..


in description of sea peoples, northernes comming from all lands are mentioned among them...

how yes no 2
23-12-10, 13:06
I think that haplogroup I has nothing to do with sea peoples...

from
"Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with nearby regions" - Khaled K Abu-Amero1 , Ali Hellani2 , Ana M González3 , Jose M Larruga3 , Vicente M Cabrera3 and Peter A Underhill4

haplogroup I is not found in Saudi Arabia and its occurence in middle east is I*, with exception of Anatolia where multiple subclades are present...

.in fact I* is present in Egypt and along Mediteranian coasts to Anatolia and the rest is as on maps of "Lineages of Asia" ... it does not really enter deep in Saudi Arabia

this suggests that haplogroup I was only spread in opposite direction from movement of sea peoples.. and that this happened very long time ago in past (as it is I* and not I2a)...

how yes no 2
01-05-11, 17:16
I think that haplogroup I has nothing to do with sea peoples...

from
"Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with nearby regions" - Khaled K Abu-Amero1 , Ali Hellani2 , Ana M González3 , Jose M Larruga3 , Vicente M Cabrera3 and Peter A Underhill4

haplogroup I is not found in Saudi Arabia and its occurence in middle east is I*, with exception of Anatolia where multiple subclades are present...

.in fact I* is present in Egypt and along Mediteranian coasts to Anatolia and the rest is as on maps of "Lineages of Asia" ... it does not really enter deep in Saudi Arabia

this suggests that haplogroup I was only spread in opposite direction from movement of sea peoples.. and that this happened very long time ago in past (as it is I* and not I2a)...

actually, I* in those testings meant probably only that they did not bother to go into determining subbranches of haplogroup I as it was not considered relevant....

so, sea peoples theory is still on... and Sherdana can easily be proto-Serb and proto-Slavic tribe...

Taranis
02-05-11, 00:25
actually, I* in those testings meant probably only that they did not bother to go into determining subbranches of haplogroup I as it was not considered relevant....

so, sea peoples theory is still on... and Sherdana can easily be proto-Serb and proto-Slavic tribe...

Proto-Serb or Proto-Slavic?! :petrified:

Every linguist will tell you that talking about Slavic languages, let alone Serbian, makes absolutely no sense in the mid-to-late 2nd millennium BC. Apart from possible mentionings by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD (and even for him, they lived at the farthest reaches of the known world), the Slavic peoples only make their debut in history during the migrations period, which is almost 2000 years later. Besides, how would people, who in their original vocabulary lacked coast/sea terminologies (this is an astounding feature of Proto-Slavic which linguists have reconstructed), be the descendants of seafarers?

It's far more plausible that "Sherden" and "Sardinia" are related - especially because Sardinia is much closer in both time and distance to ancient Egypt. There is also the "Shekelesh" (probably the Sicules, ie, Sicilians), which makes this idea seem far less coincidential.

Of course, the language of the ancient Sardinians is unknown, but it stands to reason that they either spoke Indo-European languages related with Italic/Celtic, or possibly non-Indo-European (perhaps related with Iberian or maybe even Basque, but that's pure speculation).

how yes no 2
02-05-11, 01:24
Proto-Serb or Proto-Slavic?! :petrified:

Every linguist will tell you that talking about Slavic languages, let alone Serbian, makes absolutely no sense in the mid-to-late 2nd millennium BC.
I speak of origin of people not of languages
that is why I use "proto-" in front of those words...



Apart from possible mentionings by Ptolemy in the 2nd century AD (and even for him, they lived at the farthest reaches of the known world), the Slavic peoples only make their debut in history during the migrations period, which is almost 2000 years later. Besides, how would people, who in their original vocabulary lacked coast/sea terminologies (this is an astounding feature of Proto-Slavic which linguists have reconstructed), be the descendants of seafarers?
again, you use linguistics...
languages change faster than you think...
if you move a tribe from sea to inland, after some time they will lose vocabulary about sea...
any linguist will tell you that...

many historians (e.g. Shafarik) think that in past tribal name Serbs was used for all Slavs



It's far more plausible that "Sherden" and "Sardinia" are related - especially because Sardinia is much closer in both time and distance to ancient Egypt. There is also the "Shekelesh" (probably the Sicules, ie, Sicilians), which makes this idea seem far less coincidential.

those people are drawn with wagons with oxen
besides sea there was also massive land invasion.. it went in parallel by land and sea, so Sardinians are not likely explanation....

Serden/Sherdana are also known by lake in Egypt named after them. Lake name is Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis...

besides words Sardinia and Serbia obviously origin from same tribal name.... Sardinians are dominantly I2a1 and Serbs I2a2.. whether it was about proto-Sardinians or proto-Serbs we will know when it is examined whether I2a in Asia is I2a1 or I2a2.. as far as we know both could at time speak same language (who knows which language could that had be 3200 ybp and does it matter?) and be same tribe...

Shekelesh can as well be Scythians or some other people.. e.g. Scythians are known as Saka and in medieval period Arabs use name "sakaliba" for Slavs..

keep in mind that story of sea peoples speak of people from far north countries...
they likely start from Black sea coasts... study order in which they subjugate lands... that cannot be done by sea alone and not from Sardinia and Sicily... they would need to cross Dardanelles and make port in southeast of Black sea and start from there both land and sea invasion...


Of course, the language of the ancient Sardinians is unknown, but it stands to reason that they either spoke Indo-European languages related with Italic/Celtic, or possibly non-Indo-European (perhaps related with Iberian or maybe even Basque, but that's pure speculation).

again, languages you can use to analyze recent times...not times from 3200 years ago... because languages change.... genetics stays and tribal names are often (not always) preserved...because tribal names are key of identity of tribes...

but if you want, the order of attacks clearly place mass of sea people in area where Kurds are now, and Kurds have both genetic and linguistic similarity with Slavic people that is not shared with most other iranian people
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26451-Y-DNA-Haplogroups-in-Iraqi-Kurdistan

order of attack
Hatti, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashya, Egypt

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Amarnamap.png/772px-Amarnamap.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Syria2mil.JPG

Taranis
02-05-11, 01:48
I speak of origin of people not of languages
that is why I use "proto-" in front of those words...



again, you use linguistics...
languages change faster than you think...
if you move a tribe from sea to inland, after some time they will lose vocabulary about sea...
any linguist will tell you that...

many historians (e.g. Shafarik) think that in past tribal name Serbs was used for all Slavs





those people are drawn with wagons with oxen
besides sea people was also massive land invasion.. it went in parallel by land and sea, so Sardinians are not likely explanation....

Serden/Sherdana are also known by lake in Egypt named after them. Lake name is Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis...

The Sherden are explicitly mentioned in the Egyptian sources to have come by sea.


besides words Sardinia and Serbia obviously origin from same tribal name.... Sardinians are dominantly I2a1 and Serbs I2a2.. whether it was about proto-Sardinians or proto-Serbs we will know when it is examined whether I2a in Asia is I2a1 or I2a2.. as far as we know both could at time speak same language and be same tribe...

They are "Obviously" from the same tribal name? Sorry, but I2a1 and I2a2 had a common ancestry some 10,000 years ago (near the end of the last ice age), how can they be "obviously the same tribal name"?


Shekelesh can as well be Scythians or some other people.. e.g. Scythians are known as Saka and in medieval period Arabs use name "sakaliba" for Slavs..

No, it's not that easy if you look at the roots:

ŠRDN - "Sardinians"
ŠKLŠ - "Sicules"

If Shekelesh was related with Skythians, it'd have been spelled something along the lines of "ŠKT". You'd somehow need to explain how T becomes L in the root. Also, again the Scythians were a steppe people.


keep in mind that story of sea peoples speak of people from far north countries...
they likely start from Black sea coasts... study order in which they subjugate lands... that cannot be done by sea alone and not from Sardinia and Sicily... they would need to cross Dardanelles and make port in southeast of Black sea and start from there both land and sea invasion...

For the Egyptians back then, even Greece and Anatolia would have been "far north".


again, languages you can use to analyze recent times...not times from 3200 years ago... because languages change.... genetics stays and tribal names are often (not always) preserved...because tribal names are key of identity of tribes...

That is a fantastic strawman argument. So basically deny that Baltic and Slavic languages have a significant number of commonalities, and stem from a common Proto-language, and also, 130+ years of linguistic methodology are worthless because you declare it so. :innocent:

Sorry, all your theories are too far out, too implausible and too far-fetched to work out.

In regard for names being preserved, while this is (sort of) correct, they are still subject to sound laws. You seem to not even care about that.

how yes no 2
02-05-11, 01:53
Taranis, read again (post was edited)... read order of attack.....look pictures... try to think...

How on earth can you attack Hatti from Sardinia and Sicily?

suppose they could have crossed Dardanelles and made big port in southeast of Black sea
why would you start attack there if you are attacking from Sardinia and Sicily? you would go to Arzawa and Egypt directly... how many people you need to bring to port in southeast of Black sea to conquer Hatti and make land connection from there to Karkemish and Arzawa?

this was massive settlement not just sea attack...settlement went by land with woman, children, wagons with oxen, cattle... they came from far north countries, which doesnot match Sardinia and Sicily that are both south of Hatti...

if Serden/Sherden/Shardana cannot be Serb tribal name, why is the lake named after them Serbonian bog / Serbonis / Sirbonis ? why is it not Sardinian bog/Sardinis? how do you know that what you think is 'd' was not in fact pronounced as 'b' by writers? And Serdi and Serbi are clearly interchangeable which coupled with related genetics is obviously making the tribal names comming from same origin and thus being in fact variants of the same tribal name...

Taranis
02-05-11, 02:00
Taranis, read again (post was edited)... read order of attack.....look pictures... try to think...

How on earth can you attack Hatti from Sardinia and Sicily?

The Sea Peoples were not a homogenous/coherent group. If you look at the various names that are preserved, this gets very clear. The people who attacked in Anatolia were probably not identical with those who attacked Egypt. The Egyptians eplicitly talk about the Sherden arriving by sea.

Besides, you lead yourself ad-absurdum. On the one hand you say that "Sherden" and "Serbians" are one and the same, and then you proclaim that analyzing languages is worthless. By your own logic, your purported connection of Sherden and Serbians should be worthless, shouldn't it?

EDIT:

Having said this, while a connection between the names "Sherden" and "Sardinia" seems plausible, that doesn't automatically mean the Sherden really came from Sardinia. Given how the name "Sardinia" is only attested centuries later, and we do not know how much continuity there is between the inhabitants of Sardinia in Classical Antiquity and the previous Nuragic Civilization, it stands to reason that the Sherden migrated to Sardinia.

What I finally have to say is this:

Either you find peer-reviewed evidence to solidly proof your ideas (which I verymuch doubt that such a thing exists), or you just stop about this topic. I've had enough of it. End of story.

how yes no 2
02-05-11, 02:50
The Sea Peoples were not a homogenous/coherent group. If you look at the various names that are preserved, this gets very clear. The people who attacked in Anatolia were probably not identical with those who attacked Egypt. The Egyptians eplicitly talk about the Sherden arriving by sea.
if you start on shores of Black sea attacking Hatti, than you want to continue by both land and sea... to do that you need to make land bridge to Arzawa..this bridge is exactly where Kurds live..and Kurds are related to Slavs genetically and linguistically... that gicves sound foundation for my hypothesis


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Dialects.jpg

Kurds have both genetic and linguistic relation to Slavs that doesnot go via PIE or iranian people

Sorani tribe of Kurds is the one that share vocabulary with Slavic people
Sorani is same tribal name as Serians and as Zeruiani

Seneca speaks of Serians living in Europe, in Caspian highlands, in south Siberia/northwest China, and maintain control over red sea

now, how on earth do you think Serians arrived all the way to Red sea?

manuscript of Bavarian geographer says that country of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it

Zeruiani = Serians = Sorani

Serica where Serians live is area in northwest China/south Siberia, but also arc between China and India

do you see the arc between China and India?
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

comapare where haplogroup I arc makes turn with settlement of Pastun Sarbans... pay attention to location of turn from NW-SE direction to SW-NE direction.. (Herat area). perfect match with turn in spread of Pashtun Sarbans...

http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Pashtun_Confederacies_sm.jpg

Pasthun Sarbans are clearly Serians

Serians are Kurdish Sorani who among Kurds share most words with Slavs that are not PIE nor iranic words
Serians in Europe are Zeruiani ancestors of Slavs... who are they?


Cimmerians settle Cappadocia...in Strabo's time they are called white Syrians (again same tribal name - Serians)

Thraco-Cimmerians match I2a2 and early Slavs in Europe...
Thraco-Cimmerians are Zeruiani from whom Slavs origin...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Serians in Caspian highlands who live among Sarmatians are Cimmerians and Serboi recorded by Ptolemy in Asian Sarmatia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg



sure it is possible that Sardinians participated too.... but how likely is that Sardinians made pact with people living so far of them? unless perhaps they were related people and spoke same language?



Besides, you lead yourself ad-absurdum. On the one hand you say that "Sherden" and "Serbians" are one and the same, and then you proclaim that analyzing languages is worthless. By your own logic, your purported connection of Sherden and Serbians should be worthless, shouldn't it?

you as linguist wanna be should know that you cannot expect all letters exactly the same when you use 3rd language to compare words in two different languages based on written text in 4th language whose pronounciation rules you do not know as last speakers able to write it died many years ago.....

already in english you make idiotic mistake - Serbs is about nation name, Serbians is about people living in Serbia... I do not speak of people living in Serbia... I speak of tribe and tribal name from which they origin... about tribe with same genetics, same tribal name ... perhaps that proto-tribe spoke same language as Serbs of today, but I do not really care about that.....I investigate proto-tribe from which Slavs and Serbs of today came to existance... I speak about Serians who are extremely likely forefathers of Slavic people and who from what we can see also did use Serb tribal name.... I speak of proto-Serbs and proto-Slavs not about proto-Serbians... Is it that difficult to understand? Is it my impression or you in fact do not want to understand, you do not really care what is the truth, you just try to negate everything I say...you use linguistic arguments about word not being exactly the same (every letter) in 4 languages with time span of 3200 years? did you turn your brain on this morning?


btw. tribal names that you should compare are Serbi and Sardi... to me it is clearly very likely same origin of tribal name...coupled with ones being I2a1 and others I2a2 probability of unrelated sources of tribal names is so little that it is ridicilous to argue it....

it is possible that Sardinians made pact with e.g. Scythians and Cimmerians and greek people to make conquest, but how likely is it considering distances? I am not convinced... but it is possible.... it is more likely if they spoke same language with proto- Kurds who are most likely of all people to originate from the land forces that did undertake conquest... we do not know language of ancient Sardinians, but we can see common points between Slavic languages and Sorani language of Kurds.... that speaks about some link in past... tribal name Sorani as in Kurds and tribal name Zeruiani as in proto-Slavs further strengthen this relation...

whole story I give here is much much more based on solid argument than any assumptions from that period that exist... only, I repeat only, link to sea people being Sardinians and Sicily is certian level of similarity of names and those two living near sea...it's a very vague hypothesys... in my opinion the reconstruction I gave here is much much more based on real arguments...


ither you find peer-reviewed evidence to solidly proof your ideas (which I verymuch doubt that such a thing exists), or you just stop about this topic. I've had enough of it. End of story.
you didnot turn on your brain after all...
this is forum, this is not encyclopedia...
look around...people have arguments...they propose ideas, they do not just come to copy/paste existing knowledge... that is not point of forums...forums would be very dull and boring place if that was the case.. forums like this exist to exchange opinions... to propose new ideas...to solve open questions.. I've had enough of your childish arguments... you said several times you are putting me on ignore list..so do it... keep your word

Dagne
02-05-11, 06:06
how yes no,
do you happen to have a reference to those words: "Serians are Kurdish Sorani who among Kurds share most words with Slavs that are not PIE nor iranic words"

zanipolo
02-05-11, 10:55
In my opinion and what I read in the past, the sea peoples where the myceneans of Agamemnon. The trojan war was part of the sea-peoples looting. Also the islands in the aegean sea ( most islands where mycenean, ), went on a piracy looting raids which went on for over a decade.
Most boats where of cyclanean design ( ex minoan type) , and these group of islands where mycenean.
Mycenea on the mainland when to poverty due to crop and trade failures.

Taranis
02-05-11, 11:23
In my opinion and what I read in the past, the sea peoples where the myceneans of Agamemnon. The trojan war was part of the sea-peoples looting. Also the islands in the aegean sea ( most islands where mycenean, ), went on a piracy looting raids which went on for over a decade.
Most boats where of cyclanean design ( ex minoan type) , and these group of islands where mycenean.
Mycenea on the mainland when to poverty due to crop and trade failures.

Some of the Sea Peoples, without a doubt were of Mycenean/Greek origin in my opinion, and it also stands to reason that the historic basis of the Trojan War (consider that the Trojan War was written down only centuries later, and the Greeks were an illiterate people for many centuries in the meantime) was indeed related with the Sea Peoples' raids/migrations. However, as I stated before, I do not think that the Sea Peoples were an ethnically homogenous group, and it stands to argue that there were also Italian and Anatolian people amongst them.

What I'm somewhat sceptical about is in what way the Etruscans are affiliated with this:

The arrival of the Etruscans in Italy can be timed to either around or relatively immediately after the Sea People invasions in the East Med, the identification of the "Turiša" with the "Tyrsenoi" (that is, the Greek name for the Etruscans) is somewhat spurious, principally because the Etruscans refered to themselves as "Rasna" or "Rasena".

zanipolo
02-05-11, 12:56
@ how yes and no

Why do you say the suebi are slavic?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suebi

Why do you call I2a2 slavic when the I group was from the illyrians, the slavs inherited it by way of forcing the illyrians to become slavs.

why do you not say that G2 is thracian , all the evidence is in front of what you presented.

how yes no 2
02-05-11, 21:11
how yes no,
do you happen to have a reference to those words: "Serians are Kurdish Sorani who among Kurds share most words with Slavs that are not PIE nor iranic words"
oh, sorry... I did not carefully reread what I wrote... it sounds as very strong statement but it was not meant to be....its strength was related to my strong impression that it must be the case, based on speaking shortly before that on this forum with someone who is Kurdish speaker and who said that non PIE and not iranic cognjates between Slavic and Kurdish that I have posted are mostly Sorani language...for me that was instant bingo...it was fitting perfectly in my theory of proto-Slavs being known as Serians... Sorani would be obviously the same tribal name

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26451-Y-DNA-Haplogroups-in-Iraqi-Kurdistan&p=371257&viewfull=1#post371257



@ how yes and no

Why do you say the suebi are slavic?

what? you now invent what other people said?
ok, lets play your game
Zanipolo, why do you say Albanians are same as English?



Why do you call I2a2 slavic when the I group was from the illyrians, the slavs inherited it by way of forcing the illyrians to become slavs.
you are aware that if haplogroup I2a2 in Balkan were Illyrians, than Albanians have nothing to do with Illyrians?



why do you not say that G2 is thracian , all the evidence is in front of what you presented.
I don't see how G2 is Thracian...
G2 is related to Caucasus, to Alans, perhaps to Hittite, somewhat to Etruscans.. but in Thrace I think it was only a lesser part of genetic...


In my opinion and what I read in the past, the sea peoples where the myceneans of Agamemnon. The trojan war was part of the sea-peoples looting.
while they could have been involved and while it is very likely that some of the ancient Greeks were involved, mycenian civilization perished in same years as a part of Bronze age collapse in mediteranian that is in opinion of many caused by sea peoples......so they are more likely to have been victims of new people from north...

worth nothing facts related to sea peoples that are often forgoten is that it is about invasion from far away lands in the north, that it included also big land movements, that it was settlement wave, that based on first conquers those people must have penetrated from Caucasus, or Black sea shores of Thrace and occupied area where Kurds live making the bridge between two sees... so in my opinion, who sea people were we can only find out by looking at tribal names, legends and genetics of Kurds...

how yes no 2
02-05-11, 22:45
Some of the Sea Peoples, without a doubt were of Mycenean/Greek origin in my opinion, and it also stands to reason that the historic basis of the Trojan War (consider that the Trojan War was written down only centuries later, and the Greeks were an illiterate people for many centuries in the meantime) was indeed related with the Sea Peoples' raids/migrations. However, as I stated before, I do not think that the Sea Peoples were an ethnically homogenous group, and it stands to argue that there were also Italian and Anatolian people amongst them.

What I'm somewhat sceptical about is in what way the Etruscans are affiliated with this:

The arrival of the Etruscans in Italy can be timed to either around or relatively immediately after the Sea People invasions in the East Med, the identification of the "Turiša" with the "Tyrsenoi" (that is, the Greek name for the Etruscans) is somewhat spurious, principally because the Etruscans refered to themselves as "Rasna" or "Rasena".
hm, good point...

Greek name is based on relation to Taurus area or due to man who led Etruscans to Italy.... another possibility is that Greeks added Tau in front of Rasena to indicate some mixture of cultures or whatever...

Rasena might have been R1a tribal name...
Etruscans probably did bring R1a to Italy - that is strongly suggested from shape of R1a spread matching fairly well spread of Etruscans...also area from which they left is clear as hole in R1a...R1a was not only thing they brought there was J2 as well.. and some G2a

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Etruscan_civilization_map.png/493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Amarnamap.png/772px-Amarnamap.png

order: Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya
thus, from southeast Black sea to south Anatolia, Crete, than along Syria to Egypt ....
is this reflected in R1a spread? looks a bit like it is...

Etruscans are non-IE speaking, but they come from Asia minor that was already IE speaking at the time (the movement happens decades after collapse of Hittite empire due to sea peoples)...
so what is the source of this R1a?
non-IE Hurians perhaps? are they still non-IE at the time of end of Hittite state?
or sea people arrival? or both?



The ends of several civilizations around 1175 BC have instigated a theory that the Sea Peoples may have caused the collapse of the Hittite, Mycenaean and Mitanni kingdoms. [29]
"A terminus ante quem for the destruction of the Hittite empire has been recognised in an inscription carved at Medinet Habu in Egypt in the eighth year of Ramesses III (1175 BC). This text narrates a contemporary great movement of peoples in the eastern Mediterranean, as a result of which "the lands were removed and scattered to the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya on being cut off. [ie: cut down]"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekelesh

thus, 1175 BC collapse of several civilizations

but
1194 BC: The beginning of the legendary Trojan War.

April 24, 1184 BC: Traditional date for the fall of Troy, Asia Minor to the Mycenaeans and their allies. This marks the end of the Trojan War of Greek mythology.

1180 BC: Collapse of Hittite power in Anatolia with the destruction of their capital Hattusa.

April 16, 1178 BC: A solar eclipse may mark the return of Odysseus, legendary King of Ithaca, to his kingdom after the Trojan War.

1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC


hm, something doesnot fit in timing.... Trojan war is not mentioned by any of historic documents from the neighbours of that time...Egypt inscription should place Troy before Hati but it does not...but was it mentioned in letters of Ugarit or Hittite? did it happen there at all? and when? what about many people who have legend of origin related to moving out after Trojan war? (e.g. Franks? or legend that twin brothers Romulus and Remus descended from the Trojan prince Aeneas)

what if those people who lost war moved into Europe causing big movement of people who were already there and who than went south as sea peoples?

movement of Etruscans happens due to 18 year long hunger - thus up to 40 years after sea peoples invasion... well in time when sea peoples already took over the area.... sea peoples taking over is supposed to bring to rapid end all the middle east civilizations...but Etruscans have highly developed civilization...


if sea peoples were proto-Slavic R1a carriers, than they could have brought R1a to area... conquest might have also bring R1a on Crete as it was conquered too...
but if R1a Etruscan / Rasena originated from sea people that implies R1a was non IE at the time?

how about Veneti being kicked out of Paphlagonia short after Trojan war due to their expedition with Cimmerians? short after Trojan war is time of sea peoples...but who kicked them out?

anyway, on trail of sea peoples being wave in which some proto-Slavic people participated...


the Peleset and Tjekker warriors who fought in the land battle [against Ramesses III] are accompanied in the reliefs by women and children loaded in ox-carts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shekelesh

lol, Poles and Czechs?

iapetoc
03-05-11, 04:22
Some of the Sea Peoples, without a doubt were of Mycenean/Greek origin in my opinion, and it also stands to reason that the historic basis of the Trojan War (consider that the Trojan War was written down only centuries later, and the Greeks were an illiterate people for many centuries in the meantime) was indeed related with the Sea Peoples' raids/migrations. However, as I stated before, I do not think that the Sea Peoples were an ethnically homogenous group, and it stands to argue that there were also Italian and Anatolian people amongst them.

What I'm somewhat sceptical about is in what way the Etruscans are affiliated with this:

The arrival of the Etruscans in Italy can be timed to either around or relatively immediately after the Sea People invasions in the East Med, the identification of the "Turiša" with the "Tyrsenoi" (that is, the Greek name for the Etruscans) is somewhat spurious, principally because the Etruscans refered to themselves as "Rasna" or "Rasena".



Indeed

Taranis you can be right,

For many Greeks, Cretans are considered as the policeman of the sea, at that time,

the case of sea people for me mostly has 5 version,

1) is the Lycaonia and Rhodes island people,

2) is the Myceneans after invated Crete, and the destruction of Naval forces by Volcanic activity
the story of Troy could be just 1 of the adventures

3) The Troyans after the fall of Troy

4) mercenaries that the time of troy became something like nation (either Troyans or Myceneans)

5) the Pelasgians (Etruscan branch (minor asia) or North Greek branch Ematheia or Thessaly)

the case of Athens and the Thyrrenean Pirates
written by Thoukidides,
also the Dionysus piracy written Hesiodos,
and many other lead us to Aegean,
and that Greeks always consider Etruscans as pirates (piracy of Helen, of Dionysus etc)
the most possible for me is that sea peoples were Troyan allies that after 10 years of war became something like nation, or lost their priviledges in their countries, and start looking for land, that lead us to an age before the mass devastation of Etruscans to Italy,

the case to be the Myceneans is the other major possibility also for me,
the Troyan war could be just 1 of their adventures,

the dates,
according Greeks the Troyan war happened at 1150-1250 BC,
according Phoenician calendar happened 950 BC,

in first case Hettit were at its maximum,
in 2nd did not exist,

a strange history-theory, connects Thera Volcanic activity, with Cretan naval destruction, with Hyksos invasion and the Exodus of Israelites from city Avaris,
according Geologists red sea Africa coast raise almost 5 m, that could move water quantities, but that still is little extraordinary.

some dates, like the the Exodus of israelites, the destroy of Thera and the naval forces of Crete, and the move west of Etruscans, are connected with the volcano of Thera,
probably sea peoples found open sea free, or their mother land was destroy by volcanic dust etc,

the geology of Aegean is known today, remember that every year more than 5000 earth quakes happens in Greece, it is also connected with the great Anatolian earthquake line, and the south Kythera line that drives west and north, the Ionic pelago line, a geologiacal mecanism that starts from Black sea and Armenia and after follow all Aegean south to Crete splits to Lycaonia and Kythera and goes up almost to Epirus.


How yes no

the case of Troyans is the most posible.
either Troyans, either some ally to them,
But Thyrrenians as Pelasgic are older than Troy,
the possibilty that the Fall of Troy destroy balances and a revolt by Hattians against Hettit, and a massive movement of devastation to the west cities either By Hettit, either by Hattianst to Attica or thessaly, and from there by sea to search for land, is a possible scenario

zanipolo
03-05-11, 09:53
what? you now invent what other people said?
ok, lets play your game
Zanipolo, why do you say Albanians are same as English?
you have been saying the suebi could be proto-slavic as well as the baltic.
Since the term proto-slavic ONLY refers to linguistic terms and not genetic terms ( because it does not exist) . then you clearly refer to the language.

Finnic Language descent


Figure 3.1



Finnic Language Descent suggested by Inessive, Partitive, and Illative
http://www.paabo.ca/veneti/VENETICLANGUAGE_files/image031.jpg


Clearly the tribes on the baltic sea have never been slavic until after 200AD, they where either germanic or finnic



you are aware that if haplogroup I2a2 in Balkan were Illyrians, than Albanians have nothing to do with Illyrians?
I already presented scholars theories on the albanians , the claims are that they are not of illyric descent but of dacian descent who migrate to albanian area and took the name of the albanoi




I don't see how G2 is Thracian...
G2 is related to Caucasus, to Alans, perhaps to Hittite, somewhat to Etruscans.. but in Thrace I think it was only a lesser part of genetic...
Check your posts, I agree that they are G2 , if that was not your intension, they I am confused.



while they could have been involved and while it is very likely that some of the ancient Greeks were involved, mycenian civilization perished in same years as a part of Bronze age collapse in mediteranian that is in opinion of many caused by sea peoples......so they are more likely to have been victims of new people from north...

worth nothing facts related to sea peoples that are often forgoten is that it is about invasion from far away lands in the north, that it included also big land movements, that it was settlement wave, that based on first conquers those people must have penetrated from Caucasus, or Black sea shores of Thrace and occupied area where Kurds live making the bridge between two sees... so in my opinion, who sea people were we can only find out by looking at tribal names, legends and genetics of Kurds...you do realise that Miletus was mycenean at the time and there was a trading war with Troy. Troy prevented the passage of mycenean ship into the black sea so that they could deal with cochis for GOLD.

In regards to troy's allies , the eneti under Pylaemenes. I have found no hittite records mentioning the eneti. I only found Pylaemenes and his Paphlagonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paphlagonia), who inhabited the towns of Kytoros and Sesamos, near the reiver of Partheenios and Kromna in the land of the Bithynia

Strabo also could not find any evidence of the eneti in anatolia.

I have doubts that the eneti where anywhere near anatolia.

The book Origines Celticae, the henetoi in the adriatic are called the Benetoi.

Taranis
03-05-11, 10:07
you have been saying the suebi could be proto-slavic as well as the baltic.
Since the term proto-slavic ONLY refers to linguistic terms and not genetic terms ( because it does not exist) . then you clearly refer to the language.

Finnic Language descent
Finnic Language Descent suggested by Inessive, Partitive, and Illative
http://www.paabo.ca/veneti/VENETICLANGUAGE_files/image031.jpg


Clearly the tribes on the baltic sea have never been slavic until after 200AD, they where either germanic or finnic

Let me say this: Common Slavic (Proto-Slavic, if you will) must have been spoken very late. Specifically, there's a few borrowings from Gothic (or otherwise East Germanic) which are common to the Slavic languages. If we consider the development of the Germanic languages (consider that Common Germanic itself was spoken relatively late, which I elaborated in the "Celtic and Pre-Germanic" thread). This kind of narrows down the timing of Common Slavic to circa 400-600 AD. However, what is less clear is when Common Balto-Slavic was spoken: the split between the Baltic family and Pre-Slavic must have been earier.


I already presented scholars theories on the albanians , the claims are that they are not of illyric descent but of dacian descent who migrate to albanian area and took the name of the albanoi

The name "Albanian" is an exonym, anyways. In their own language, they call themselves "Shqiptarët". Personally, I have no satisfying solution for Albanian, either.

zanipolo
03-05-11, 10:09
on R1a the terminiloy for genetics is not proto-slavic , but proto-indo-European

R1a likely originated in the Eurasian Steppes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Steppes), and may be associated with the Kurgan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan) culture and Proto-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) expansion. It is primarily found in Central and Western Asia, India, and the Slavic peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples) of Eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe), as well as among some populations of Mongolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) and southern Siberia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia), where it might reflect Scythian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian) influences of classical antiquity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/classical_antiquity).

Taranis
03-05-11, 10:10
on R1a the terminiloy for genetics is not proto-slavic , but proto-indo-European

R1a likely originated in the Eurasian Steppes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Steppes), and may be associated with the Kurgan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan) culture and Proto-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) expansion. It is primarily found in Central and Western Asia, India, and the Slavic peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples) of Eastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe), as well as among some populations of Mongolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) and southern Siberia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia), where it might reflect Scythian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian) influences of classical antiquity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/classical_antiquity).

I was refering purely to linguistics, actually.

zanipolo
03-05-11, 11:46
I was refering purely to linguistics, actually.

you are correct, i as well

Are you saying Proto-indo-Europeans refers to both linguistic and genetic terminoly and so proto-slavic is only confirned to the steppes area?

zanipolo
03-05-11, 11:55
Let me say this: Common Slavic (Proto-Slavic, if you will) must have been spoken very late. Specifically, there's a few borrowings from Gothic (or otherwise East Germanic) which are common to the Slavic languages. If we consider the development of the Germanic languages (consider that Common Germanic itself was spoken relatively late, which I elaborated in the "Celtic and Pre-Germanic" thread). This kind of narrows down the timing of Common Slavic to circa 400-600 AD. However, what is less clear is when Common Balto-Slavic was spoken: the split between the Baltic family and Pre-Slavic must have been earier.



.

I agree, I was making the point that slavic in those areas did not appear until after the birth of christ, your years of 400AD would seem far better than my choice of 200AD.

And again, you are correct , it would be a celtic and later on a germanic language ( but old finnic , pre-ugralic union would be the norm for the baltic areas until around 100-200AD. I am still trying to find when they joined

Taranis
03-05-11, 12:03
you are correct, i as well

Are you saying Proto-indo-Europeans refers to both linguistic and genetic terminoly and so proto-slavic is only confirned to the steppes area?

Well, first off, the case for R1a1a being associated with early Indo-Europeans (or, at least, one early branch of Indo-European speaking peoples) is reasonably plausible. I think it's possible to argue for both genetic and linguistics, but one should be cautious to not mix things up because you make very different statements for very different times there. In my opinion, you can correlate genetics and archaeology, and you can correlate linguistics and archaeology (in particular, you can make statements when a certain word must have entered the vocabulary of a language, because it does conform to certain sound laws, but not to others), but you cannot directly correlate genetics and linguistics.

Secondly, I'm not convinced that the Proto-Slavs lived in the steppe, primarily because Proto/Common Slavic, although lacking maritime terminology, apparently has a lot terms for lakes and forests, which is not consistent with steppe peoples.

how yes no 2
03-05-11, 23:10
btw. again please note that I do not speak of languages but about origin of people...about haplogroups, tribal identities... from the point of language it is not correct to call those people proto-Slavic as we cannot know how close/distant to Slavic language it was...as far as we know it might have not been IE even...

well, let me compare... French are sometimes called Gauls even though their language is not really Celtic.... we may speak of proto-Mexican people as Mayas and Aztecs even though languages of those ancient people were not Spanish

in that sense, it is perfectly correct to speak of proto-Slavs when trying to trace origin of Slavs in past and to talk about proto-Serbs when trying to trace origin of Serbs in past...

now, I answer here on post from topic about thracians
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26170-An-Approach-to-ancient-Thracian-DNA&p=371354&viewfull=1#post371354


You keep quoting eneti from the anatolia. Have you read homers books, the passage refers to Pylaemedes and the Paphalgonians from the lands of the eneti. It does not say eneti people moved anywhere, they did not even fight at troy. Did they ( the eneti) exist?
it was not like world war you know...
it was war between Greek people mostly... between 2 groups that were tied with allies bonds and cousin relationship between rulers of towns...

Paphlagonia is not so near Troy as it seems...there was no reason for them to participate...especially if they were not Greeks and thus not related to any of the sides by royal bonds or allies made...

at that time Greeks probably lived only on coasts of Asia minor near Greek islands...but not deep inside Anatolia... the spread deep into anatolia probably came after conquest of sea peoples...perhaps Mycenean Greeks were the ones who pushed Veneti out...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Homeric_Greece.svg/719px-Homeric_Greece.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Amarnamap.png/772px-Amarnamap.png

again order of attack was: Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya

Paphlagonia would be northeast part of Assuwa
Paphlagonia Eneti were most notable among Paphlagonians...but were expelled after expedition with Cimmerians short after Troyan war...

only expedition in that area and in that time was sea peoples..
.
I have already explained many times why I think Cimmerians are Serians and related to Paphlagonia Eneti...in fact, I think that Cimmerians and Eneti originate from same tribe that originally spread around Black sea, in times preceding sea peoples conquest I guess that Cimmerians are mostly along north, northeast and west shores of Black sea and Eneti mostly along south shores...

so, if Cimmerians came from direction of Colchis and Iberia and Veneti pushed from Paphlagonia, together they brought easily Hatti down...as they had it surrounded....but when both were busy running conquest to south as far as Egypt, Myceneans probably used opportunity and pushed Veneti out from their lands... so Greek influence spread on big part of Anatolia...

Veneti being pushed out of Paphlagonia easily corresponds to hole in R1a spread there .. so, it is possible that Paphlagonia Eneti were perhaps already mix of R1a and I2a2...

but it is questionable whether Papphlagonia Eneti were exactly the same tribe as Adriatic Veneti... I think it is more likely that Paphlagonia Eneti were pushed to the east... also we find today I2a* exactly and only in the locations matching Celtic Veneti and Adriatic Veneti areas which may indicate old settlements... btw. note that in ancient times different branches of Veneti perfectly match description of sea peoples - Britanny Veneti, Baltic Veneti, Adriatic Veneti, Paphlagonia Veneti - all on seas !!

prospect that Adriatic Veneti were on their place much before Paphlagonia Eneti were kicked out indicates that they may have been related to I2a1 Sardinians same as Paphlagonia Eneti were related to Cimmerians....if those people spoke same language than Sherdana could have easily been Sardinians who joined conquest of related people from Asia....

anyway when Etruscan settled in between Sardinians and Adriatic Veneti, they probably cut the cultural bond between them...... on other hand it makes sense that Etruscans were allowed to settle next to Adriatic Veneti cause they knew each other well from Asia minor...as supposed movements happened roughly in same period - short after Trojan war

how yes no 2
04-05-11, 01:04
to analyze origin of spread of a YDNA branch it is useful to look at spread of parent branch

I2a* is so far found only in 2 locations - one matches Adriatic Veneti and other matches Britanny Veneti...
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap


its parent branch I2 is however found in several areas:
1) around Black sea
1a) north of it
1b) south of it
2) a line from Baltic to Black sea with part branching towards Slovakia
3) a line from north Italy to Denmark with branch to Britanny and Btitain

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215/default.aspx?section=ymap

I have been talking about I2a Veneti being sea people, but already I2 is clearly strategic oriented people.... they hold roads between key seas... their spread is in lines while one would expect spreading in circle...

from this spread I can imagine different branches of Veneti race came to existence ..
from 1a) come Cimmerians
from 1b) come Paphlagonia Eneti
from 2) come Baltic Veneti and Cimmerians
from 3) come people such as I2a1 Sardinains, Adriatic Veneti and Celtic Veneti, but also Germanic I2b people... and perhaps Cimbri if they were not later spread of Thraco-Cimmerians (which would place them in 1a and 2)

looking at
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

perhaps I2a2 Dinaric North maps to Paphlagonia Eneti
and I2a1 Dinaric-South to Cimmerians and Baltic Veneti as it shows traces to Denmark (perhaps related to Cimbri who are thought to be Cimmerian) and through Germany, and also settlement in Baltic area...

if Paphplagonia Eneti had lot of R1a as indicated by the lack of R1a exactly on the place where they used to live before being kicked out of Asia minor and Cimmerians were in wars with R1a Scythians,
that can explain why east and west Slavs have dominant R1a and I2a2-Dinaric North while south Slavs have dominant I2a2-Dinaric south...R1a in north Slavs also comes from Scythians....

it is not really clear where to map Sarmatians... perhaps it could be same name as Cimmerians... but Sarmatian Alans were probably haplogroup G and Sarmatians originating in Greek legend from group of Scythians intermarrying group of Amazones would make them likely to be R1a...

sparkey
04-05-11, 01:43
to analyze origin of spread of a YDNA branch it is useful to look at spread of parent branch

I2a* is so far found only in 2 locations - one matches Adriatic Veneti and other matches Britanny Veneti...
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap


its parent branch I2 is however found in several areas:
1) around Black sea
1a) north of it
1b) south of it
2) a line from Baltic to Black sea with part branching towards Slovakia
3) a line from north Italy to Denmark with branch to Britanny and Btitain

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215/default.aspx?section=ymap

To be clear, I2a*-Alpine has a quite similar haplotype to I2a-Western, so it's more of a brother to I2a-Western than it is a parent to I2a-Din. I2a*-F is the weird outgroup that you could view as representative of a parent population.

Also, I've looked at I2* very closely and I find that the center of diversity for I2*-A and I2*-C are both in Germany, and I2*-B (the one that stretches across Europe into Asia), is too tough to pin down, but it seems likely to me that it could easily have spread Eastward rather than Westward. The center of diversity for I2c-ADR, which is on the same branch of I2 as the I2*'s, is around Italy, but its data is currently deficient. (Also note that admin Bob May of the I2* Project currently has some I2*-B misclassified as I2c-ADR... I have already contacted him about that).

Just thought I'd throw that out there... I don't know how it would affect your analysis here.

how yes no 2
04-05-11, 02:15
To be clear, I2a*-Alpine has a quite similar haplotype to I2a-Western, so it's more of a brother to I2a-Western than it is a parent to I2a-Din. I2a*-F is the weird outgroup that you could view as representative of a parent population.

note that I have placed Adriatic Veneti in same group with I2a1 Sardinians and Celtic Veneti... and with Germanic I2b spread... I do wonder whether I2a2-Isles might be introduced by migrations of Celtic Veneti to UK...

btw. this reminds me on Germanic and Celtic languages being more related than to Slavic....
could it be that I2 spread IE?


Also, I've looked at I2* very closely and I find that the center of diversity for I2*-A and I2*-C are both in Germany, and I2*-B (the one that stretches across Europe into Asia), is too tough to pin down, but it seems likely to me that it could easily have spread Eastward rather than Westward. The center of diversity for I2c-ADR, which is on the same branch of I2 as the I2*'s, is around Italy, but its data is currently deficient. (Also note that admin Bob May of the I2* Project currently has some I2*-B misclassified as I2c-ADR... I have already contacted him about that).
hm, Germany...
could it be that I2*-B is from people who went from there along Danube to Black sea?
that area was heavily influenced by movement of peoples so it makes it harder to see...

is I2a2 closer to I2*-B than to others?
perhaps some I2*-B and early I2a2 went from Germany along Rhine to north Sea and Britain giving I2a2-Isles?

sparkey
04-05-11, 17:37
note that I have placed Adriatic Veneti in same group with I2a1 Sardinians and Celtic Veneti... and with Germanic I2b spread... I do wonder whether I2a2-Isles might be introduced by migrations of Celtic Veneti to UK...

btw. this reminds me on Germanic and Celtic languages being more related than to Slavic....
could it be that I2 spread IE?

So does I2a-Western go together with this group in your theory? Along with Alpine, it's off on its own genetically, but I haven't looked at its distribution closely.


hm, Germany...
could it be that I2*-B is from people who went from there along Danube to Black sea?
that area was heavily influenced by movement of peoples so it makes it harder to see...

is I2a2 closer to I2*-B than to others?
perhaps some I2*-B and early I2a2 went from Germany along Rhine to north Sea and Britain giving I2a2-Isles?

I2*-B must have been seafaring peoples of some sort... they ended up as the dominant strain of Haplogroup I in Crete. Traveling along the Black Sea eastward would also explain why they pop up significantly in Georgia and Armenia. Genetically, they are most closely related to I2*-A and I2*-C, and then to I2c-ADR. None of these are unusually closely related to I2a2... although a population could have shared different distantly related I2's.

how yes no 2
04-05-11, 23:52
So does I2a-Western go together with this group in your theory? Along with Alpine, it's off on its own genetically, but I haven't looked at its distribution closely.
not sure.. I think I2a3-L233-western might have been separate people...
it is very sea oriented as various Veneti are...
but it goes more north than any I2a...
Norway, Finland, Frisia, UK
if I need to map it to some fairly recent people, it would be Vikings...



I2*-B must have been seafaring peoples of some sort... they ended up as the dominant strain of Haplogroup I in Crete. Traveling along the Black Sea eastward would also explain why they pop up significantly in Georgia and Armenia.

hm, along Black sea...Georgia and Armenia...sounds very much as if it was spread by Cimmerians..

regarding Crete, it may be related to Tjekker and Peleset who were part of land invasion of sea peoples...


This situation is confirmed by the Medinet Habu temple reliefs of Ramesses III which show that:[30]
the Peleset and Tjekker warriors who fought in the land battle [against Ramesses III] are accompanied in the reliefs by women and children loaded in ox-carts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples


Two of the peoples who settled in the Levant have traditions that may connect them to Crete: the Tjeker and the Peleset (Philistines). The Tjeker may have left Crete to settle in Anatolia and left there to settle Dor.[39] According to the Old Testament,[40] the Israelite God brought the Philistines out of Caphtor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples
*Capthor = Crete

Is there any genetic research regarding Palestinians? if they origin from Peleset and if the theory from this thread is correct, they should have at least some I2...

while searching for that... I found this

A follow-up study by Oppenheim found that in addition to being closely related to Israeli and Palestinian Arab populations, Jews are even more closely related to the peoples living in the north of the Fertile Crescent, such as the Kurds.[113]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

in my opinion, Kurds partly descend from sea peoples conquest...
perhaps Palestinians and Jews do as well...

sparkey
05-05-11, 01:16
hm, along Black sea...Georgia and Armenia...sounds very much as if it was spread by Cimmerians..

regarding Crete, it may be related to Tjekker and Peleset who were part of land invasion of sea peoples...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples
*Capthor = Crete

Is there any genetic research regarding Palestinians? if they origin from Peleset and if the theory from this thread is correct, they should have at least some I2...

while searching for that... I found this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_people

in my opinion, Kurds partly descend from sea peoples conquest...
perhaps Palestinians and Jews do as well...

Obviously, Haplogroup J is the one that is common to Palestinians and Jews, but what Haplogroup I is present in them could be telling. Data for Palestinians is deficient AFAIK. Much I in Jewish populations could have been picked up from later migrations of Jews. Put together, we don't have much... although there is a significant cluster of I2*-B people, known as I2*-B(J), which is entirely Jewish, mostly Eastern European Jewish in recent origin. Whether that is from some I2*-B that has been in Europe for a long time or from I2*-B introduced by Philistines in the early Middle Eastern Jews that subsequently expanded into Eastern Europe, it's hard to say.

I think the Crete connection of the Sea Peoples is interesting, and makes me think that I2*-B is probably the I clade most associated with the two populations you mention. Their MRCA dates back to about the right time for that to make sense (~3000 years ago). Perhaps they descend from some stray ancestral I2*-A/B/C who traveled by sea every which way, and got incorporated into the Philistines. I'm still hesitant to make any I2 a principle marker of these peoples, however... the concentrations in the places they are thought to have spread to are too low, aren't they?

how yes no 2
05-05-11, 02:12
well, relations of Palestinians and Jews to sea people is purely hypotetical and based on similarity of names Peleset, Philistines and Palestinians... but note also that sea peoples were heterogeneous...

on other hand I am pretty convinced that Kurds largely origin from actual sea peoples...

Kurds clearly stand out from environment by haplogroup I

Region/Haplogroup

Armenia 4%
Azerbaijan 3%
Egypt 1%
Georgia 3.5%
Iran 3%
Iraq 5%
Kurdistan (Iraq) 17%
Kurdistan (Turkey) 25%
Lebanon 3.5%
Morocco 0%
Syria 5%
Tunisia 1%

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml


this big difference comapred to environment is indicator of settlement wave probably via conquest from northern areas... sea peoples seems fairly good option and joint conquest of Veneti and Cimmerians makes lot of sense as explanation of that story... and various locations of both Cimmerians and Veneti in general correlate quite well with I2 spreads


judging by the order of the conquest (Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya), the location of Kurds is most likely area of land invasion and settlement... the story about Paphlagonia Eneti being kicked out from Asia minordue to joint expedition with Cimmerians shortly after Trojan war fits perfectly in sea peoples scenario.. as it explains why sea peoples are said to be northerners, explains land invasion, explains order of conquest, explains easiness of bringing Hatti down (as it was more or less surrounded), explains I2 in Kurds....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Amarnamap.png/772px-Amarnamap.png

location of Kurds was very important strategic area that is bridge between two seas...for sea peoples conquest that is crucial....because attack from sea alone can hardly penetrate deep in land and allow stable basis for further progress...

again, as we have seen I2* branches do exactly the same thing in Europe - they spread around sea and make land bridges between seas..

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2nosubcladeM170P215/default.aspx?section=ymap

taking over strategic routes gives them natural role of merchants..




-In india there is a city called Ayodhya and the area of this city is called Vendhia. the venets of india where called the carriers.

-In latin, Vendes means a seller of goods a merchant, trader

- Where the adriatc veneti just a trading people of mixed tribal races, did they make the 2 amber roads for trade . Are the venetians who where great merchants and traders have these genes from ancient times.


you know that I relate Cimmerians with Serians mentioned by Seneca... e.g. Cimmerians are thought to have settled in cappadocia and later Strabo calls Cappadocians white Syrians:

the words“the Cauconians were led by the noble son of Polycles— they who lived in glorious dwellings in the neighborhood of the Parthenius River, ”for, he adds, the Cauconians extended from Heracleia and the Mariandyni to the white Syrians, whom we call Cappadocians, and the tribe of the Cauconians round Tieium extended to the Parthenius River, whereas that of the Heneti, who held Cytorum, were situated next to them after the Parthenius River, and still today certain "Cauconitae"7 live in the neighborhood of the Parthenius River. [6]
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=12:chapter =3&highlight=thracian,eneti


Serians, according to Seneca, live in in Europe, in Caspian highlands among Sarmatians, in Serica (northwest China where they produce silk, and in wider sense Serica is also arc from China to India), on Red sea ..

keep in mind that manuscript of Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from it....Zeruiani is same tribal name as Serians, agree?

in 6th century AD Jordanes says that Slavs are of Veneti race...


in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
Jordanes - the origin and deeds of Goths
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

one important thing to note is that in 1st century AD Seneca's Serians of Europe rule over scattered Scythians...we know that Scythians are R1a people... reference to Veneti (same as Serians) race of early Slavs in 6th century AD is thus perhaps about dominant I2 origin, while R1a is more about Scythians or Saka (note that medieval name of Arabs for Slavs is "sakaliba")...

question of whether Slavic language comes from Serians or Scythians is hard to resolve... note that some of Slavic R1a comes from Veneti/Serians because hole in R1a spread in Paphlagonia indicates that Eneti had strong R1a as well... same probably holds for Serians...



[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who eave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous– ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

now Serica in wider sense as arc of Serians from northwest China to India - clearly trade road - on one side silk on other spices


Serica, the land of the Seres, was the name by which the Greco-Romans referred to a country in Central Asia.
Ancient Mediterranean knowledge of this nation was indistinct and distorted by fables and myths. Ptolemy and Pliny the Elder present more precise descriptions. Serica was described by Ptolemy as bordering "Scythia beyond the Imaum mountains (Tian Shan)" on the West, "Terra Incognita" to the North-East, the "Sinae" or Chinese to the East and "India" to the South. This would correspond with modern Xinjiang province in North-Western China.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica


Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

comapare where haplogroup I arc makes turn with settlement of Pastun Sarbans... pay attention to location of turn from NW-SE direction to SW-NE direction.. (Herat area). perfect match with turn in spread of Pashtun Sarbans...

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png
http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Pashtun_Confederacies_sm.jpg

now check this out too - Seneca speaks of Serians of Caspian highlands in Sarmatia...look for Serbi in the map made following Ptolomey's records..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians



The Siraces (Greek: Sirakoi, Latin: Siraci, also Siraceni and Seraci[1]) were a hellenized Sarmatian tribe that inhabited Sarmatia Asiatica; the coast of Achardeus at the Black Sea south of the Caucasus mountains, Siracena[1] is mentioned by Tacitus as one of their settlements.
...
They and the Aorsi were [B]merchants who traded with goods of Babylonia and India through the Armenians and Medes, with camels. They profited greatly from this, seen in their clothing attributed with much gold.[2]
...
They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

Seneca speaks also of Serians on Red sea...they are again merchants:

The Sabaeans, like the other Yemenite kingdoms of the same period, were involved in the extremely lucrative spice trade, especially frankincense and myrrh.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabeans

zanipolo
05-05-11, 03:47
you know that I relate Cimmerians with Serians mentioned by Seneca... e.g. Cimmerians are thought to have settled in cappadocia and later Strabo calls Cappadocians white Syrians:

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=12:chapter =3&highlight=thracian,eneti


Serians, according to Seneca, live in in Europe, in Caspian highlands among Sarmatians, in Serica (northwest China where they produce silk, and in wider sense Serica is also arc from China to India), on Red sea ..

keep in mind that manuscript of Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from it....Zeruiani is same tribal name as Serians, agree?

in 6th century AD Jordanes says that Slavs are of Veneti race...


Jordanes - the origin and deeds of Goths
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html (http://people.ucalgary.ca/%7Evandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html)

one important thing to note is that in 1st century AD Seneca's Serians of Europe rule over scattered Scythians...we know that Scythians are R1a people... reference to Veneti (same as Serians) race of early Slavs in 6th century AD is thus mostly about I2 origin, while R1a is about Scythians...



Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

now Serica in wider sense as arc of Serians from northwest China to India - clearly trade road - on one side silk on other spices


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

[/URL]

You are wrong about jordanes, he said venedi and not veneti


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11427175 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabeans)
T in the alps
J in the plains
K in venice and the lagoons, BUT, the bavarians where in venice from 1200 to 1800, the greeks/cretans from 1300 to 1800, the armenians from 1400 to 1800, the illyrian dlamatians, from 1100 to 1800

[url]http://books.google.com.au/books?id=dt9WAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA310&lpg=PA310&dq=%22goths+and+venedi%22&source=bl&ots=TRz5VviqLG&sig=VK6PLkDSEJYamrOehG1BbZ-ZofU&hl=en&ei=6vbATZ6FKoGevgPRhpCgBA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CEQQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q&f=false
check venedi and veneti

actually he said venethi
In 551 AD Gothic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goths) author Jordanes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordanes) claimed that the Antes and Sclaveni [Slavs] stemmed from the Venethi

It has been argued that the Veneti were a centum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centum) Indo-European people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages), rather than Baltic-speakers. Zbigniew Gołąb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Go%C5%82%C4%85b) considers that the hydronyms of the Vistula and Odra river basins had a North-West Indo-European character with close affinities to the Italo-Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italo-Celtic) branch, but different from the Germanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanic_peoples) branch, and show resemblances to those attested in the area of the Adriatic Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) (in Northeastern Italy) as well as those attested in the Western Balkans that are attributed to Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), which suggests points to a possible connection between these ancient Indo-European peoples.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistula_Veneti#cite_note-7) However, according to Steinacher, the Adriatic Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti), the Veneti of Gaul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneti_%28Gaul%29) and the North Balkan/Paphlagonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paphlagonia) Enetoi mentioned by Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) and Appian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appian) were not related to each other,

zanipolo
05-05-11, 04:19
on gomer

within the Torah at Genesis 10, representing an ethnology from an Iron Age Levantine perspective. Japheth was one of the sons of Noah. Japheth's first son was Gomer. Gomer's first son was Ashkenaz. Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the medieval Jewish communities of Germany. Ashkenaz was the Medieval Hebrew name for Germany and German-speaking borderland areas. It was also the Hebrew name for the land of the Phrygians. The Jews knew there was a connection between the Germanic peoples and the Phrygians. During the Trojan War the region by Lake Ascania (aka Lake Ascanius) was held by the Phrygians, who sent troops to the aid of the Trojans. In Greek mythology several Trojans have the name Ascanius. Ashkenaz was maybe the Hebrew interpretation of "Ascania".
The Veneti are linked to the trade with amber. The Veneti lived in northern Poland along the rivers of Oder and Vistula. This was the beginning of the Amber Road. The Veneti also lived in Veneto in northeastern Italy. This was the end of the Amber Road. Ancient writers connect the Veneti with the Trojans. According to Livy the Veneti were formed by a merging of the Eneti and the Trojans. Homer speaks of the Eneti as descendants of the Trojans. Pliny the Elder indicates the Veneti ancestry as being Trojan. The Vistula Veneti are believed to have been a centum Indo-European people dwelling in the area of contemporary Poland. Their heritage is attributed to Pre-Finnic hydronyms found in the Vistula and Odra river basins. Hydronyms attributed to the Vistula Veneti seem to show resemblances to those attested in the area of the Adriatic Veneti as well as those attested in the Western Balkans that are attributed to Illyrians, all of which may point to a possible connection between these ancient Indo-European peoples.

how yes no 2
05-05-11, 04:23
1) Veneti and Venedi are clearly tribal names of same origin......

well, let me draw it to you: while in english one reads 'G' of Germani like in George, in Serbian 'G' of Germani is like in goverment.. that doesn't mean those are different people... does it?

Jordanes is clear that it is about race that is now scattered in many tribes.... it is quite plausible that different Veneti tribes, being separated from each other and living in different cultural and language environments, ended up with different languages...

2) I speak of tribal identity and genetics and and not of languages...
you seem to be stucked to recent times and linguistics...

- do you understand that centum and satem do not make any sense if you go back in time of e.g. 2000 years more from your reference point around time of Adriatic Veneti, while genetics and tribal identities still do have lot of sense?

- do you understand that many linguists agree that centum and satem are just one of the features that can be used for classification?

- do you understand that according to Seneca in 1st century AD Serians were ruling over Scythians.... thus, till time of early Slavs in 6th century their language may have merged with the language of Scythians resulting in Slavic languages...

- do you understand that latin was 2500 years ago spoken only in small village called Rome and langauges derived from it are now spoken in latin America and big part of Europe..... do you think that all the Mexicans, Chileans, Peruvians, Brazilians. and so on origin from that village called Rome? do you think that Sioux or Cherokee who speaks mostly english is not Sioux or Cherokee and that his ancestors were cowboys because he speaks english?

- do you understand that people of same origin and same genetics can come to situation to speak different languages?

- do you understand that Adriatic Veneti is not = all Veneti but just one branch of Veneti... split time of originally I2 Veneti into tribes could have been 2500 to e.g. 7000 years ago.... we are not in position to make claims about languages, as there is no reliable data regarding that, but point is that there is continuity of tribal name and I am pretty sure that the facts I have written indicate pretty well that there is also continuity of genetics

- do you understand that all I say does not exclude possibility (that you urge for) that Adriatic Veneti (due to mixing with other people) were in the times they are recorded by history dominantly some other group e.g. J2 ... point is that original carriers of the tribal name Veneti were very likely I2a/R1a people

- and do not start again story about 13tth century Venetians being probably J2 and about their language not being Slavic... it is silly argument against reconstruction I made.. and btw. Venetians from 13 th century and Adriatic Veneti did not speak same language and might as well have been quite different people because the area suffered from many settlement waves and ancient Veneti were not mentioned in history for more than 1000 years before area is named after town of Veneto...and people took name of area... I think there is some genetic continuity between Adriatic Veneti and Venetians, due to sharing same location, but it's not like it can be exactly the same genetics after gap of more than 1000 years in existence of tribal continuity... the genetic continuity I see in I2a* found only in locations of north Italy and Britanny, thus only in Celtic Veneti and Adriatic Veneti settlements.. this doesnot exclude possibility that Adriatic Veneti were dominantly some other haplogroup... it says that their tribal identity likely origin from I2 people

zanipolo
05-05-11, 04:39
1) Veneti and Venedi are clearly tribal names of same origin......

well, let me draw it to you: while in english one reads 'G' of Germani like in George, in Serbian 'G' of Germani is like in goverment.. that doesn't mean those are different people... does it?

Jordanes is clear that it is about race that is now scattered in many tribes.... it is quite plausible that different Veneti tribes, being separated from each other and living in different cultural and language environments, ended up with different languages...

2) I speak of tribal identity and genetics and and not of languages...
you seem to be stucked to recent times and linguistics...

- do you understand that centum and satem do not make any sense if you go back in time of e.g. 2000 years more from your reference point around time of Adriatic Veneti, while genetics and tribal identities still do have lot of sense?

- do you understand that many linguists agree that centum and satem are just one of the features that can be used for classification?

- do you understand that according to Seneca in 1st century AD Serians were ruling over Scythians.... thus, till time of early Slavs in 6th century their language may have merged with the language of Scythians resulting in Slavic languages...

- do you understand that latin was 2500 years ago spoken only in small village called Rome and langauges derived from it are now spoken in latin America and big part of Europe..... do you think that all the Mexicans, Chileans, Peruvians, Brazilians. and so on origin from that village called Rome? do you think that Sioux or Cherokee who speaks mostly english is not Sioux or Cherokee and that his ancestors were cowboys because he speaks english?

- do you understand that people of same origin and same genetics can come to situation to speak different languages?

- do you understand that Adriatic Veneti is not = all Veneti but just one branch of Veneti... split time of originally I2 Veneti into tribes could have been 2500 to e.g. 7000 years ago.... we are not in position to make claims about languages, as there is no reliable data regarding that, but point is that there is continuity of tribal name and I am pretty sure that the facts I have written indicate pretty well that there is also continuity of genetics

- do you understand that all I say does not exclude possibility that you urge for that Adriatic Veneti were in times they are recorded by history dominantly some other group e.g. J2 due to mixing with other people... point is that original carriers of the tribal name Veneti were very likely I2a/R1a people

don't you read my links

-when you clarify your terminolgy of veneti and venedi and venethi is when progress will be made.

here is the centrum language for venetic


Figure 3.1



Finnic Language Descent suggested by Inessive, Partitive, and Illative
http://www.paabo.ca/veneti/VENETICLANGUAGE_files/image031.jpg


You say to me to refer to ancient times and yet you only quote jordanes who was from 551 AD, What does he have to do with ancient times?
Quote tictinus, pliny, polybius , strabo and many many more............or do you ignore them because there is no slavic in their venetic terms !!

how yes no 2
05-05-11, 04:46
on gomer

within the Torah at Genesis 10, representing an ethnology from an Iron Age Levantine perspective. Japheth was one of the sons of Noah. Japheth's first son was Gomer. Gomer's first son was Ashkenaz. Ashkenazi Jews are descended from the medieval Jewish communities of Germany. Ashkenaz was the Medieval Hebrew name for Germany and German-speaking borderland areas.

you do not read my posts carefully, do you?

Gomer was not living in times when Adriatic Veneti are mentioned, but much much earlier....

Gomer was thought to be ancestor of all Germanic people... of haplogroup I people (do not forget that besides I1 also I2b is important marker of Germanic people of today) .... I2 people are part of that...

in time of Gomer speaking of Germanic, Slavic , Celtic languages has no sense at all, as that split happens only much much after him........ but as you see some tribal identities are already there and haplogroups are already there... btw. tribal identity Gomer is interchangeable with Cimmerian/Serian... e.g. key Germanic tribes such as Suebi and Swedes have tribal names related to Sarbans, Sardinians, Serbs, Scordisci, Serdi, Sherdana.... among Kurdish Sorani are people of Garmiani... Garamantes of Africa areas gave towns Germa and Sebha... and so on...


....if you are not able to understand that with passage of time (and we talk about lot of time) languages change and that tribal names too often change to some extent, than we do not have what to talk about...

zanipolo
05-05-11, 04:51
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=SuAXAQAAIAAJ&pg=PA390&lpg=PA390&dq=polybius+on+the+veneti&source=bl&ots=tVl3Y0s82G&sig=i_971y7DJJvEN7c1uIzemUGG7Xc&hl=en&ei=CxDCTd3KD4v1sgaUv_zpDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CE0Q6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=polybius%20on%20the%20veneti&f=false

strabo and polybius , these are ancient writers and not jordanes

how yes no 2
05-05-11, 05:06
again, I am not speaking of Slavic language...
I speak of continuity of genetics and tribal name of Zeruiani/Serians/Seres/Siraces/Sarbans/Serboi/Serbs...(probably also Scirri/Scordisci/Serdi) about tribal name Serian very likely to be interchangeble with Cimmerian (while Gomer is wider term) and about Veneti being people of same I2 race... I explain it with example of conquest of sea peoples clearly being same as expedition of Veneti and Cimmerians, with Kurdish people being reminders of that conquest....

those linguistics ëvidences of yours are so lame in their basis (as they have absolutely no meaning in so distant past) that it is ridicilous that someone can believe in them...point is we do not have clue about languages of those times... from what I can see you are extremely biased because you somehow cannot stand idea that early Slavs could have been of Veneti race (race = genetics and not necessarily language)...

reconstruction that I gave here is way way more based on facts than any of linguistic and arbitrary assumptions of some mediocre authorities like Steinacher that you keep quoting as a proof that Veneti and Venethi tribal names could not have had the same origin.....

do you understand that e.g. Serbs and Sorbs of today are unrelated people with different languages, but that their tribal name has same origin.... do you understand that same thing was likely for different Veneti tribes 2000 years ago... in the eyes of historians who were looking only the present times they were different tribes, but in eyes of someone looking distant past they have tribal name of same origin... but I claim that for Veneti origin of tribal name is coupled with genetic imprint of I2 YDNA haplogroup....

zanipolo
05-05-11, 05:35
again, I am not speaking of Slavic language...
I speak of continuity of genetics and tribal name of Serians/Siraces/Sarbans/Serboi/Serbs... about Serian likely being interchangeble with Cimmerian (while Gomer is wider term) and Veneti being people of same I2 race... I explain it with example of conquest of sea peoples clearly being same as expedition of Veneti and Cimmerians, with Kurdish people being reminders of that conquest....

those linguistics ëvidences of yours are so lame in their basis (as they have absolutely no meaning in so distant past) that it is ridicilous that someone can believe in them...point is we do not have clue about languages of those times... from what I can see you are extremely biased because you cannot stand idea that early Slavs could have been of Veneti race (race = genetics and not necessarily language)...

reconstruction that I gave here is way way more based on facts than any of linguistic and arbitrary assumptions of some mediocre authorities like Steinacher that you keep quoting as a proof that Veneti and Venethi tribal names could not have had the same origin.....

You misunderstand completly what is the issue, its about genetics.

- slovenian scholars ( 50% ) say thet are not slavic . why is that?

- tictinus says the first encounter of sarmatians with the fenni people ( called them finnic) was 150AD. this is genetic and linguistic movements

- the Venedi where I2a because they where either of gothic or finnic stock ( scandinavian)

- the veneti are not I2a but R1b with some R1a and are either celtic or rhaetic stock and these people are still in the area.

the true terminology for the slovenians are that they ( of the western area) are of venetic stock that they where slavirtized and NOT that they where slavic stock which adopted a name of venetic , when you know the slavs have never said in there entire history that theuy where venetic. The slavic claims came about in the 1980s when slovenians where trying to find a legitimate genetic of their past, be it slavic or non-slavic . At that time they said that they where both venedi and vandals.
Since the vandal issue has been put to rest, they would not acceot that venedi where related to the baltic genetic vandals/goths and thus not of any slavic link

since the Ladins ( rhaetic people) still reside in the veneto and they are ancient in genetics. what haplogroup are they ?
Since they also have found saami genetics in this group, what does that indicate?
Is the T and J of mtdna not to your liking?

zanipolo
05-05-11, 05:42
below genetics

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_T_%28Y-DNA%29



Ladins below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_L_%28Y-DNA%29
L haplgroup


more on T
http://malyarchuk-bor.narod2.ru/AHG_99.pdf
note the finnic, baltic and suebi notes
Also note 75% of ladins in the veneto ( an ancient race) are T

zanipolo
05-05-11, 06:06
T group arrived in northern italy 17000 years ago

http://www.kerchner.com/haplogroups-mtdna.htm

zanipolo
05-05-11, 06:16
sea peoples haplogroup

There are J2 Phoenicians in the later years of their empire. This was verified.

J2 is not old enough to have been the haplogroup of the Sea Peoples , then again , the phoencians did colonise most of the mediterraen . The where the pre - carthagians that battled Rome.

The ancestors of the Sea Peoples would have to have been J.

The 40% J2 population in Malta is a late arrival.

62% of Crete is J2


Was the veneti J2 only due to their trade within the levant?


The Sea Peoples seemed to have mixed with the earlier Caucasian races the Hittites, and Aryans, who were all J1.

how yes no 2
05-05-11, 19:17
No, it's not that easy if you look at the roots:

ŠRDN - "Sardinians"
ŠKLŠ - "Sicules"

If Shekelesh was related with Skythians, it'd have been spelled something along the lines of "ŠKT". You'd somehow need to explain how T becomes L in the root. Also, again the Scythians were a steppe people.

ok, what about Sardis as origin of tribal name Sherdana/Serden...


"Spard" or "Sard", another name closely connected to the name Tyrrhenian, was the capital city of the land of Lydia, the original home of the Tyrrhenians; it was referred to by the Greeks as "Sardis". The name preserved by Greek and Egyptian renderings is "Sard," for the Greeks call it "Sardis" and the name appears in the Egyptian inscriptions as "Srdn."[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians


for my theory that doesnot change much, as I am convinced that Balkan Serbs (and identity of other Slavs) origin from European branch of I2 (and perhaps R1a) Serians, while sea peoples were an Asian branch of Serians or Cimmerians... the relationto Serians is extremely clear.... already statement of Bavarian geographer that "the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it" is clear indication of what I claim here...

and even though sea peoples are history of Asian branch of Serians,in wider scope they are part of history of Serians/Cimmerians and thus also of proto-Serbs and proto-Slavs... people who origin from Asian branches of Serians would be Kurdish Sorani, Pasthun Sarbans, and Chuvash (turkic people who has dominantly Slavic genetics and legend of origin from Sabirs - turkic tribe who are located in same place where Serboi of Caucasus were prior to turkic invasions of the area)

as for Sardinians I am sure that their I2a1 in distant history meant strong relationship with other I2 people.... same as their tribal name is clearly related to what I call haplogroup I tribal name pattern: Sardis, Sarbans, Serbs, Scordisci, Serdi, Suebi, Swedes...

zanipolo
06-05-11, 09:49
ok, what about Sardis as origin of tribal name Sherdana/Serden...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians


for my theory that doesnot change much, as I am convinced that Balkan Serbs (and identity of other Slavs) origin from European branch of I2 (and perhaps R1a) Serians, while sea peoples were an Asian branch of Serians or Cimmerians... the relationto Serians is extremely clear.... already statement of Bavarian geographer that "the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it" is clear indication of what I claim here...

and even though sea peoples are history of Asian branch of Serians,in wider scope they are part of history of Serians/Cimmerians and thus also of proto-Serbs and proto-Slavs... people who origin from Asian branches of Serians would be Kurdish Sorani, Pasthun Sarbans, and Chuvash (turkic people who has dominantly Slavic genetics and legend of origin from Sabirs - turkic tribe who are located in same place where Serboi of Caucasus were prior to turkic invasions of the area)

as for Sardinians I am sure that their I2a1 in distant history meant strong relationship with other I2 people.... same as their tribal name is clearly related to what I call haplogroup I tribal name pattern: Sardis, Sarbans, Serbs, Scordisci, Serdi, Suebi, Swedes...

I agree that the sardinians have a high % of the I haplogroup, but was it because they where illyric or due to etruscan migration?

Zeruiani stement was -
In the manuscript of the anonymous Bavarian geographer (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Bavarian_Geographer) was written: "...Zeruiani (the Serbs), whose kingdom is so great, that from them all the Slav peoples came into being and are said to originate from them."
This is from the 10th century AD, why do you try to match something which is "young" for ita ancient association. Its clearly from someone without historical knowledge

This zeruiani is this meant to be serb, while Horvati is meant to be craotion?

how yes no 2
06-05-11, 12:35
This zeruiani is this meant to be serb, while Horvati is meant to be craotion?
[/I]
Horvati means croissant :)
and yes Conan the Cimmerian was Serb :)

but seriously, I think that Croats tribal name is derived from tribal name of Hurians... Hurians were in my opinion R1a people and some of them ended up turkic (ak+hur = Og+ hur =Ogur = Ugri), some Slavic (Croats and also many Carpathian Slavs who did use tribal name white Croats)...

tribal names of Serians and Hurians go far beyond ancestors of present days Serbs and Croats... it is just that Serbs and Croats are the parts who has kept ancient tribal names...

e.g I think that Germanic Sciri and Hirri are again branches of Serians and Hurians who probably ended up in Germanic people, Celtic Scordisci and Helvetti perhaps again origin from Serians and Hurians...

Serians/Cimmerians and Hurians(?) might have been tribal names of proto-Indo-European people

so, term Serian is much much wider than term Serb today is... I think it was mostly about haplogroup I2 people...but it could have been in same time about R1a as well...

Serbs of today in my opinion origin mostly from Scordisci/Serdi who went around along Danube in Celtic spread from Bohemia to Serbia, and than during Roman expansion back to Bohemia, and than as Slavs back to Serbia...
that is why Byzantine emperor says they come from land Boiki (that by the description he gives matches only Bohemia) where they also originally dwelt... note that he does not imply continuity of living in Bohemia before moving to Balkan but instead he says that they also originally dwelt there...there is a reason why one of previous Byzantine emperors called Serbs to settle on Balkan...you do not just call distant barbarians to settle....in my opinion it's because they were related to previous people who lived in Serbia... they would origin from those Seneca's Serians who dare to cross frozen Danube...



I agree that the sardinians have a high % of the I haplogroup, but was it because they where illyric or due to etruscan migration?

Zeruiani stement was -
In the manuscript of the anonymous Bavarian geographer (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Bavarian_Geographer) was written: "...Zeruiani (the Serbs), whose kingdom is so great, that from them all the Slav peoples came into being and are said to originate from them."
This is from the 10th century AD, why do you try to match something which is "young" for ita ancient association. Its clearly from someone without historical knowledge


I think Illyrians were actually E-V13 and also J2, and that Tosks would be probably closest to those people
reason I think so is that E-V13 shows high variation but low frequency in Dalmatia where core of Illyrians was...

Serbs origin from Scordisci, and we know that Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians... that explains large E-V13 and significant J haplogroups in Serbs of today...

back to Zeruiani...


Zeruiani is same tribal name as Serians that is quite clear....

I do not think that German historian in 10 century would invent previous big state of Slavic people... he heard about it and wrote down what he heard... was he lied to? from what I have gathered in this posts, I do not think so...

Seneca clearly speaks about how big the state of Serians was - northwest China (Serica), areas in Europe (ruling over scattered Scythians places them in east Europe and crossing frozen Danube on bear feet means they live around Danube), living unguarded from Sarmatians in Caspian highlands (which maps to Serboi recodrded by Ptolemy in Caucasus and to Siraces on northeast shores of Black sea who origin from them), and having control over Red sea ...

how big state was you can see by tribal names Serboi in Caucasus (later after turkic invasion of Caucasus they became Sabirs and than Chuvash people - today Chuvash people are turkic people who are thought to partially origin from Sabirs and have autosomal genetic of Slavic people ), by looking at tribal names of Pasthun Sarbans, Kurds Sorani... and by looking at traces of haplogroup I in Asia.... R1a was part of this, but it was also Scythians who spread it throughout Asia, so it is not so clear to see Serians in it... Serians of Red sea map to usage of yet another tribal name related to the one of the Serbs - Sheba/Sabbeans...

on north shores of Black sea Serians = Siraces (most hellenized of all Sarmatians and thought to be same as Serboi or related to them)

what I have shown here is that Serians were most likely Cimmerians... and that they were related to Veneti tribes...

related tribal names Cimmerian/Serian/ Serb were very wide spread... and so was the populous race of Veneti... how much is this covered by genetics is hard to say... from what I see both Cimmerians and Veneti map fairly well to I2 people...

so big spread means that when we speak of Serians it was possibly some ancient old large kingdom... tribal name Serbs was used there...that doesnot mean that those were all same as Balkan Serbs...it means that Balkan Serbs are the people who along some other have preserved that tribal name...

regarding your interest for Veneti, in my opinion Adriatic Veneti might have had dominant J2 and R1b but that would be due to italic people and Illyrians...while I am sure that their tribal name was related to originally I2 Veneti..perhaps in case of Adriatic Veneti I2 could have been mostly I2a1 as in Sardinians

how yes no 2
06-05-11, 14:37
btw. a bit off topic about relation of Cimmerians/Serians to Illyrians...
I think that tribes of Serians/Cimmerians had nothing to do with Illyrians...
while Serians/Cimmerians were in my opinion I2 + some R1a people, I think that Illyrians probably originally were E-V13 and J2 with some R1b as well...

thing is that Dalmatia had several waves of almost complete depopulation...Strabo records that Dacians during their wars with Celtic people such as Boii depopulated Illyria.. it was resettled by Pannonians who I think already were I2a2 and perhaps proto-Slav related people... a clue for this is in few preserved "Illyrian" words from Roman times actually mapping to Slavic, also Oseriates are tribe who lives on big complex of lakes (Plitvice http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plitvice)... and their tribal name has clear relation to lake people only in Slavic languages... (jezero/ozero = lake)

than there were various barbarians who were entering violently in that area... from historic sources Goths were very brutal in ethnically cleansing the area...and so were Avars...in the end came various Slav groups... both Serbs and Croats were called by Byzantine emperors to settle the depopulated area...so they didnot come as conquerers...

very high variance and very low frequency of haplogroup E-V13 in Croatia speaks of genocide....
Croats have less E-V13 than e.g. Germans, but by far highest variance of E-V13 in Europe... it's not a peacefull migration to Albania as than Albanians would have much larger variance.. it is genetic image of genocide... but it is a genocide in many waves: mostly carried out by Dacians, Goths and Avars

Serbs are also told that have been called to settle lands depopulated by Avars...
but unlike Croats Serbs have large E-V13 frequency and relatively low variance, and also significant J haplogroups...I think this is partly due to assimilated previous inhabitants, partly due to probable origin from earlier Scordisci/Serdi who are known to have lived mixed with Illyrians

archaiocapilos
10-06-11, 16:41
sea peoples haplogroup

There are J2 Phoenicians in the later years of their empire. This was verified.

J2 is not old enough to have been the haplogroup of the Sea Peoples , then again , the phoencians did colonise most of the mediterraen . The where the pre - carthagians that battled Rome.

The ancestors of the Sea Peoples would have to have been J.

The 40% J2 population in Malta is a late arrival.

62% of Crete is J2


Was the veneti J2 only due to their trade within the levant?


The Sea Peoples seemed to have mixed with the earlier Caucasian races the Hittites, and Aryans, who were all J1.

Crete is 30-35% J2 not 62%. J2 is not only a Phoenician haplogroup, in fact it is more Anatolian than Phoenician and Greek mythology specifically links Minoans with Anatolian groups like Carians and Lycians. If it was a Phoenician influence there should also be a lot of J1 in Crete which is not the case

archaiocapilos
14-07-11, 19:57
Well, first off, the case for R1a1a being associated with early Indo-Europeans (or, at least, one early branch of Indo-European speaking peoples) is reasonably plausible. I think it's possible to argue for both genetic and linguistics, but one should be cautious to not mix things up because you make very different statements for very different times there. In my opinion, you can correlate genetics and archaeology, and you can correlate linguistics and archaeology (in particular, you can make statements when a certain word must have entered the vocabulary of a language, because it does conform to certain sound laws, but not to others), but you cannot directly correlate genetics and linguistics.

Secondly, I'm not convinced that the Proto-Slavs lived in the steppe, primarily because Proto/Common Slavic, although lacking maritime terminology, apparently has a lot terms for lakes and forests, which is not consistent with steppe peoples.
R1a1a could only be the haplogroup of Indo-Aryan and Slavic languages not of all Indo-European speakers.
BTW there are forests and enormous lakes in the steppes of central Asia...

how yes no 3
06-04-12, 15:04
it was conspiraxcy of northerners.....
key of sea peoples were R1a

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-R1a.gif


they came from Ukraine, which is indicated by Q correlating with R1a in sea peoples conquest area

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-Q.gif


among R1a Northerners Sherdana were I2a carriers...they are distant ancestors of Kurds

they probably did live originally in the area...

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Goga
18-04-12, 23:54
They got my attention not so long time ago and I never heard about them even 1 year ago. I'm very much interested in these people. According to me they're very fascinating, because according to many historians they were responsible for the decline of many civilizations in the ancient world, like Hittites, Minoans, Mycenaeans and even Egypt.

I read they these folks came from Sicily or something.

Goga
19-04-12, 00:05
@ how yes no,

With all due respect, I like your theories and view of point very much, they're very interesting and original at least. But Kurds do not believe that they're descendants of the Sea People. Kurds are 'Mountain People' and not 'Sea People'.

If you can proof that Kurds are partly descendants of these Sea People, you will rewrite Kurdish history!

Selwyn Greenfrith
19-04-12, 07:00
Seafolk = Lands with lots of islands: Scotland, Faeroes, Norway, Denmark, Greece, Finland, Croatia(?) Malta(?)

how yes no 3
05-06-12, 01:28
http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ptab=2&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=114781513110833464918.000486ea2e46f2583f229&ll=44.562628,81.287842&spn=10.201969,28.059082&source=embed

i would say these (deep blue and magenta pins on the map) are people who origin from Sherdana

R1a1 southern east branch
common ancestor 4400±450 years before present...
i expect they start of from Ukraine...and expand into middle east and central Asia.... note their preference for sea coasts...

essentially, looking at R1a branches at http://r1a.org/3.htm this is origin of R1a in Kurds

this confirms my claims that name Kurds origins from name Sherdana

elsewhere (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27558-origin-of-tribal-names) I have explained that PIE *suerb and *uend were names given by R1a for part of those people living in border lands... hence *suerb gives location name Sirbonis in Egypt named after Sherdana...

origin of tribal name Kurds is thus same as origin of tribal name Serbs and means in language of ancient R1a people "people living in border lands"...warriors in wars, merchants in peace....

central Asian component (green pins especially) is I think related to Sart people...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

Sherdana holding strategic places in south coastal areas of Arabia and India explains why Sart people were known as merchants and thought by some to have been Arabs....they were trading spices from south and silk from north from area called Serica...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serica)

note green pins also in Serica proper north of Tibet

in mongolian "sar" means moon and explanation for name Sarta is "people with moon (crescent) on the flag"....



flag of Kurdistan also has crescent (moon)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Flag_of_kurdistan-1922_1924.svg/125px-Flag_of_kurdistan-1922_1924.svg.png



Serbia has 4 crescents on coats of arms.....Serbia is not sampled much in existing databases of R1a but I am curious whether some deep-blue and green pins will appear there in future...especially because there are deep-blue pins in Ukraine, south Poland (white/west Croatia) and Germany (from what I could figure out white/west Serbia fom where Serbs come to Balkan was in Bohemia/Bavaria)

same as in Kurds it is white crescent on red backround (red and white are original Slavic colors - e.g. Croatian checkboard, polish flag...)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Coat_of_arms_of_Serbia_(2004-2010).svg/342px-Coat_of_arms_of_Serbia_(2004-2010).svg.png

crescent are placed such that they turn back to each other as protecting something in the middle - i would say this is symbolic representation of border people - people guarding boarders of R1a (+ I2) people...

Yetos
05-06-12, 04:16
flag of Kurdistan also has crescent (moon)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a6/Flag_of_kurdistan-1922_1924.svg/125px-Flag_of_kurdistan-1922_1924.svg.png



Serbia has 4 crescents on coats of arms.....Serbia is not sampled much in existing databases of R1a but I am curious whether some deep-blue and green pins will appear there in future...especially because there are deep-blue pins in Ukraine, south Poland (white/west Croatia) and Germany (from what I could figure out white/west Serbia fom where Serbs come to Balkan was in Bohemia/Bavaria)

same as in Kurds it is white crescent on red backround (red and white are original Slavic colors - e.g. Croatian checkboard, polish flag...)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d8/Coat_of_arms_of_Serbia_(2004-2010).svg/342px-Coat_of_arms_of_Serbia_(2004-2010).svg.png




All Muslim countries have moons,
Turkish flags had 3 moon as Pakistans also,
Maybe Serbia is a Muslim and Turkish country also ????

:laughing:


Be more careful, cause misunderstandings may happen

how yes no 3
05-06-12, 19:56
All Muslim countries have moons,
Turkish flags had 3 moon as Pakistans also,
Maybe Serbia is a Muslim and Turkish country also ????

:laughing:


Be more careful, cause misunderstandings may happen


turkic people are clearly not "moon" people...
their flags do not show moon, but moon with one or more stars...
so they can be "night" people and not "moon" people

in Slavic languages
"srp" = sickle, crescent

Yetos
05-06-12, 20:59
turkic people are clearly not "moon" people...
their flags do not show moon, but moon with one or more stars...
so they can be "night" people and not "moon" people

in Slavic languages
"srp" = sickle, crescent

what about Maldives?

Are they Serbs also?
the have cresend but no Star

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Maldives.svg


what about Moggolia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Mongolia.svg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg


a flag symbol does not mean something sometimes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Flag_of_Uzbekistan.svg)

Alan
06-06-12, 02:27
Well the moon indeed is an older symbol and was adopted by muslims. But in this case, the moon on this specific Kurdish flag is connect to Islam. This flag "How yes no" belongs to a Kurdish islamic movement. The real symbol of Kurds is the Sun.

how yes no 3
09-09-12, 21:12
notice: some ideas in this post may look very weird to some readers... I do not claim that those are facts...I suggest a set of possible links, some of them might be for readers quite hard to fit in own perception of reality..




Dogons are west African tribe with unexplainable detailed knowledge about remote star system Sirius... they claim to have obtained the knowledge from alien beings that are like humans but adapted for life in water...


Dogons are not the only African tribe that has link to Sirius star system,,,Serer also have Sirius system in their myths of origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serer_people




Robert Temple was studying Dogons intensively and wrote some books about his findings
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G9ruJ2t-xaE&feature=relmfu

he says that throughout the world e.g. in chinese mythology there is a stroy about civilization being founded by beings adapted to life in sea
he has reconstructed the voyage of Dogons over time and could trace it to town Sabha in Lybia, and concludes that they origin from Garmantes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes
main town of Garmantes Germa is now called Sabha...
he believes that Dogons have brought their knowledge from ancient Egypt...



however wikipedia gives us opportunity to investigate further roots...
in ancient Babylon a deity of agriculture, fertility and fishing is called Dagon


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon
Hebrew dāg/dâg, 'fish'
Dagon je "fish-god" also half man half fish
Dagon - word that also means grain, seed

I did speak before about Roman historian attributing meaning "seed, grain" to word German and specuilating that this is about original Celts


"The English term Germans is only attested from the mid-16th century, based on the classical Latin term Germani used by Julius Caesar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julius_Caesar) and later Tacitus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus). It gradually replaced Dutch and Almains, the latter becoming mostly obsolete by the early 18th century"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germans

it is possible that tribal name Garamantes comes from the same root...


Dogons - believe in alien beings adapted to life in sea who organized their society
Dagon = half man, half fish
Dagon = grain,seed

Germans/Gomer/Garamantes = grain,seed
this allows us to speculate that tribal name Dogons is derived from deity name Dagon and related to belief in adavanced beings adapted to life in sea who brought them civilization (e.g. agriculture)

note that I did explain before that white Syrians of Cappadokia are in fact very likely same people as Cimmerians or Gomer...
it is very curious that those tribal names tend to come in pair....
Germa/Sabha
Garamantes/Seres
Gomer/Syrians
even dialects in Kurdish areas: Germiyanî is one of Sorani dialects...


now we make excursion to another area with belief in fish-like beings...
it is advanced Neolitics culture of Vinca that was roughly spread on area of nowadays Serbia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/60/Vin%C4%8Da_culture_locator_map.svg/264px-Vin%C4%8Da_culture_locator_map.svg.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/Lady_of_Vinca.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinca_culture


on area matching exactly Vinca culture we find later Celtic tribe Scordisci and related thrachanized Serdi
S(c)ord+isci = Serd+ i
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi


with -isci being celtic ending and -i being Thracian
ommition of (c) is explained in same way as in Sclaveni (roman writing) = Slaveni/Sloveni (own name)

Scordisci disaapear with spread of Roman empire...

in same time Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs (and explicitly names among them Serbs, Croats and Carantines) as moving to north in times of Roman expansion - this movement is described to happen from exactly the same Danubian areas where Scordisci are known to live and where before I speculate Sherdana originally lived and where before that Vinca culture existed...


Sherdana left behind them single place name - Serbonis
Serdi took same Danube root to Asia minor as I propse Sherdana did earlier in history
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/ThracianTribes.jpg/800px-ThracianTribes.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people


curious trace of Sherdana sea people could be R1a1 south-east branch,,,
purple markers do tend to spread via sea red sea, Syria, Tunis,Persian gulf, southwest India , and green markers are matching exactly known spread of Seres./Serians

Serres is in wider term also used for an arc from northwest China to India and we can see that arc clearly made in Seres proper from green dots and in Afghanistan and Pakistan by purple dots....
5726http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en...2&source=embed (http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&ptab=2&oe=UTF8&msa=0&msid=114781513110833464918.000486ea2e46f2583f229&ll=44.562628,81.287842&spn=10.201969,28.059082&source=embed)

note that databases are scarce with R1a1 data from Serbia, but scientific papers indicates that in Euroasia it is oldest in Serbia...which suggests in fact presence of both green and purple markers.....

I do wonder whether Serer people of Africa may as well origin from Garamantes and be part of people related to Seres /Serians/Syrians...it is not impossible considering the purple dot found all the way in Tunis...


note also the match of all those tribal names to the name of star system Sirius

note also that Sherdana left behind them a single place name - Sirbonis/Serbonis


I suggest possible partial continuity of modern Serbs from european branch of Sherdana via Scordisci/Serdi/Danubian Slavs...and continuity of Kurds from eastern branch of Sherdana... I also believe that these people may partly origin from Vinca culture in which sea beings were worshiped as deities...


and final link

Karlovac rodoslov from 16th century dealing with pre-histroy of Serbs mentions this:
According to it, during the Emperor Licinius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Licinius): "All Serbs worshipped Dagon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon). From Dagon the Dagonians and Dacians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians) received their names; From Ser, all the Serbs." and "Among many others he [Licinius] persecuted the saints and martyrs Jermil and Stratonik, who were in Dagonia, near the Ister (Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube))".[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlovacki_Rodoslov#cite_note-0)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karlovacki_Rodoslov

hence there is a link between Serbs and Dagon

and name Dacians is related to Dagon!
if Serbs are Dacian related people this explains that wolf is important animal to Dacians, Kurds and Serbs, and also to Lycians ( Lukka of sea peoples and also known that several of their leaders had name Sarpedon which I think just meant king of Serbs) and also existance in those areas of typical circular dances with holding hands...(similar dance in west Euirope only exist in Catalonia where it is called Sardana)


now lets skip for a moment the border of known reality and try to imagine what would be genetical implication of some admixture of advanced beings living in a sea to some group of people......

i would expect to see tradition carried in carrying the name "sea people" and big talent for water sports in particular waterpolo...

ex-yugoslavia is part of world that is immensely talented for waterpolo, even though there were only few clubs (e.g. in Serbia currently in total 32 clubs most of them founded in last few years)
but yet most of gold, silver, bronze meadils on all kinds of competitions went to ex-Yugoslavia and countries derived from it: Serbia, Montenegro and Croatia

ex-Yugoslavia
Olympic Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_Summer_Olympics) record



1936 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1936_Summer_Olympics) – First round
1948 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1948_Summer_Olympics) – Second round
1952 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1952_Summer_Olympics) – Silver Medal
1956 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1956_Summer_Olympics) – Silver Medal
1960 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1960_Summer_Olympics) – 4th place
1964 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1964_Summer_Olympics) – Silver Medal
1968 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1968_Summer_Olympics) – Gold Medal
1972 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1972_Summer_Olympics) – 5th place
1976 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1976_Summer_Olympics) – 5th place
1980 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1980_Summer_Olympics) – Silver Medal
1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1984_Summer_Olympics) – Gold Medal
1988 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1988_Summer_Olympics) – Gold Medal
1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1992_Summer_Olympics) – Didn't participate


World Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Aquatics_Championships) record



1973 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1973_FINA_Men%27s_World_Water_Polo_Championship) — Bronze Medal
1975 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1975_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament) — 13th place
1978 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1978_FINA_Men%27s_World_Water_Polo_Championship) — Bronze Medal
1982 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1982_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament) — 7th place
1986 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FINA_Men%27s_World_Water_Polo_Championship) — Gold Medal
1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_FINA_Men%27s_World_Water_Polo_Championship) — Gold Medal


World Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FINA_Water_Polo_World_Cup) record



1979 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1979_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — Bronze Medal
1981 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1981_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — Silver Medal
1983 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — Didn't participate
1985 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1985_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — 4th place
1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1987_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — Gold Medal
1989 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1989_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — Gold Medal
1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — Silver Medal


European Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Water_Polo_Championship) record



1950 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1950_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Bronze Medal
1954 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1954_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Silver Medal
1958 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1958_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Silver Medal
1962 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1962_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Silver Medal
1966 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1966_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Bronze Medal
1970 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1970_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Bronze Medal
1974 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1974_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Bronze Medal
1977 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1977_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Silver Medal
1985 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1985_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Silver Medal
1987 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1987_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Silver Medal
1989 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1989_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Silver Medal
1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1991_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Gold Medal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslavia_men%27s_national_water_polo_team


FR Yugoslavia (Serbia and Montenegro)

Olympic Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_Summer_Olympics) record



As FR Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia)


1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1992_Summer_Olympics)
Didn't participate


1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1996_Summer_Olympics)
8th


2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2000_Summer_Olympics)
3rd


As Serbia and Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_and_Montenegro)


2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2004_Summer_Olympics)
2nd





World Aquatics Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_World_Aquatics_Championships)



As FR Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia)


1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1994_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament)
Didn't participate


1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1998_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament)
3rd


2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2001_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament)
2nd


As Serbia and Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_and_Montenegro)


2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2003_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament)
3rd


2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2005_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament)
1st






European Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Water_Polo_Championship)




As FR Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia)


1993 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1993_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1)
Didn't participate


1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship)
Didn't participate


1997 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship)
2nd


1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship)
7th


2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship)
1st


As Serbia and Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_and_Montenegro)


2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship)
1st





FINA World League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FINA_Water_Polo_World_League)



As FR Yugoslavia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Republic_of_Yugoslavia)


2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
Didn't participate


As Serbia and Montenegro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_and_Montenegro)


2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
4th


2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
2nd


2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
1st


2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
1st




Serbia

Olympic Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_Summer_Olympics) record



2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics)
3rd


2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2012_Summer_Olympics)
3rd



World Aquatics Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_World_Aquatics_Championships)



2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2007_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament)
4th


2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2009_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament)
1st


2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2011_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament)
2nd



European Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Water_Polo_Championship)



2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship)
1st


2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship)
2nd


2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship)
3rd


2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship)
1st



FINA World League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FINA_Water_Polo_World_League)



2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
1st


2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
1st


2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
3rd


2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
1st


2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
1st


2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League)
3rd


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia_men%27s_national_water_polo_team_statistics

Montenegro
European Championship



2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) — 1st place



2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) — 5th place



2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) — 2nd place

Olympic Games



2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics) — 4th place
2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2012_Summer_Olympics) — 4th place

Olympic Games Qualification Tournament



2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_Men%27s_Water_Polo_Olympic_Games_Qualificatio n_Tournament) — 1st place

FINA World League



2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — Preliminary round



2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — 4th place



2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) —1st place



2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — 2nd place



2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — 5th place



2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — does not participate


World Championship



2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2009_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament) — 9th place



2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2011_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament) — 7th place


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Montenegro_national_water_polo_team

Croatia

Olympic Games (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_Summer_Olympics)



1992 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1992_Summer_Olympics) – Didn't participate
1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_1996_Summer_Olympics) – Silver Medal
2000 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2000_Summer_Olympics) – Seventh place
2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2004_Summer_Olympics) – Tenth place
2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2008_Summer_Olympics) – Sixth place
2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2012_Summer_Olympics) – Gold Medal


World Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Aquatics_Championships)



1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_FINA_Men%27s_World_Water_Polo_Championship) — 4th place
1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_FINA_Men%27s_World_Water_Polo_Championship) — 9th place
2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_FINA_Men%27s_World_Water_Polo_Championship) — 8th place
2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_FINA_Men%27s_World_Water_Polo_Championship) — 9th place
2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_FINA_Men%27s_World_Water_Polo_Championship) — 4th place
2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2007_World_Aquatics_Championship s) — Gold Medal
2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2009_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament) — Bronze Medal
2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_polo_at_the_2011_World_Aquatics_Championship s_%E2%80%93_Men%27s_tournament) — Bronze Medal


European Championship (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Water_Polo_Championship)



1993 (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=1993_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_C hampionship&action=edit&redlink=1) — Fifth place
1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) — Fourth place
1997 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) — Fourth place
1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) —Silver Medal
2001 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) — Fourth place
2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) — Silver Medal
2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) — Seventh place
2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) — Fourth place
2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Men%27s_European_Water_Polo_Championship) — Gold Medal



FINA World League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FINA_Water_Polo_World_League)



2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — 7th place
2003 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2003_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — Didn't participate
2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — Didn't participate
2005 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — 4th place
2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — Semifinal round
2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — Preliminary round
2008 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — Preliminary round
2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — Silver Medal
2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — Bronze Medal
2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2011_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — Bronze Medal
2012 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_League) — Gold Medal

FINA Water Polo World Cup (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FINA_Water_Polo_World_Cup)



1991 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1991_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — Didn't participate
1993 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — Didn't participate
1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1995_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — 8th place
1997 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — 8th place
1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1999_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — Didn't participate
2002 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — 8th place
2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — 4th place
2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_FINA_Men%27s_Water_Polo_World_Cup) — Silver Medal

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia_national_water_polo_team


Isn't this a remarkable talent for water sports in particular waterpolo that we find in south Slavs?
Does the talent come from genetics?
Are south Slavs descendants of "sea people"?

and more curious can this possibly genetic trait be linked to the legends of mysterious humanoid beings adapted to life in water, from beings that originate in star system Sirius?

and do not ask me am I Serious :)

how yes no 3
10-09-12, 01:52
back to Karlovac rodoslov

" "All Serbs worshipped Dagon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon). From Dagon the Dagonians and Dacians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians) received their names; From Ser, all the Serbs."

so, Dagon is paired with Ser. But who is Ser?
perhaps his wife?


Dagan's wife was in some sources the goddess Shala (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shala) (also named as wife of Adad and sometimes identified with Ninlil). In other texts, his wife isIshara (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishara).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagon


Ishara (išḫara) is the Hittite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittite_language) word for "treaty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty), binding promise", also personified as a goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess) of the oath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oath).
In Hurrian and Semitic traditions, Išḫara is a love goddess, often identified with Ishtar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar).

The name is from a PIE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIE) root *sh2ei "to bind (also magically)", char in Bulgarian "magical charming", also in Greek himas "strap" and Old Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse) / Old High German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_High_German) seil "rope". Possibly also cognate is soul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul), and Welsh Gwen-hwyfar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinevere) (Irish Find-abair, from Proto-Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic) *windo-seibaro- "white ghost", from a meaning "enchanted" of the extended root *sh2ei-bh-). ishar (or eshar), oblique ishan-, the Hittite for "blood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blood)" is probably derived from the same root, maybe from a notion of "bond" between blood-relations (c.f. Sanskrit bandhu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bandhu)). The verb ishiya "to bind, fetter", "to oblige" is directly cognate to Sanskrit syati or Russian shyot with similar meanings.

Her astrological embodiment is the constellation Scorpio and she is called the mother of the Sebitti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebitti) (the Seven Stars) (Seux, 343). Ishara was well known in Syria from the third millennium B.C. She became a great goddess of the Hurrian population. .... she was invoked to heal the sick (Lebrun).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishara#cite_note-Leick-0)
The Hurrian cult of Ishara as a love goddess also spread to Syria.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishara



Ishtar (pronounced / (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English)ˈ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key)ɪ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key)ʃ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key)t (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key)ɑː (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key)r (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English#Key)/ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_English); Transliteration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transliteration): D (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DINGIR)IŠTAR; Akkadian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akkadian): ������������ http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/38/B010ellst.png/24px-B010ellst.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B010ellst.png) http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/B153ellst.png/29px-B153ellst.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B153ellst.png); Sumerian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumerian_language) ���������������� �) is the Assyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assyria) and Babylonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Babylonia) goddess of fertility (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility), war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War), love (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love), and sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar#cite_note-WilkinsonKramer-p24-0) She is the counterpart to theSumerian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesopotamian_mythology) Inanna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inanna) and to the cognate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognate) north-west Semitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic) goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess) Astarte (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astarte).
Ishtar was the goddess of love and war, above all associated with sexuality.....
In the Babylonian pantheon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pantheon_(gods)), she "was the divine personification of the planet Venus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus)".[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishtar#cite_note-Guirand-p58-3)



we know that in latin alternative name for Danube is Ister....
question is whether this could be a legacy to a worship of Ishtar godess, wife of Dagon.....
Vinca culture worships fish-like beings like Dagon...

Karlovac rodoslov tells that all Serbs worshiped Dagon and got their name from Ser, while Dacians got name from Dagon. This looks like a pair of deities where west part (Danubian) got name after female, and east part Dacia after male.....

Danube area where they live would accordingly be named Ister...
among Dacians are Carpi/Harpi who can perhaps be mapped to later Croats (Hrvati)...

if Ser comes from Ishara/ Ister there ought to be alike goddess in Slavic mythology to which when religion was changed tribal name is transfered....

and it is Zorya


"She is depicted as a warrior goddess, fully armed and courageous, and was invoked to protect against death in battle with the prayer "Defend me, O maiden, with your veil from the enemy, from the arquebus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arquebus) and arrow..."[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] She is a patroness of horses, protection, exorcism, and the planet Venus, and Slavs would pray to her each morning as the sun rose.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya#cite_note-Poland-3) "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya

now, Ishtar was related to Venus and so is Zorya... they are both also war goddesses and love godesses...

this is related to what i was writing before about Zorya/Danica goddess ...
i was writing about Serians/Zeruiani ("state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from it" - Bavarian geographer) being in fact Zoryans - people of Zorya....

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26546-Dacian-Language&p=374314&viewfull=1#post374314



Zorya serves the sun god Dažbog = Daž + bog (slavic for 'god') - could this god be legacy of Dagon worship? Dag -> Daž?

in Slavic mythology Dazbog is not central god, he is replaced with PIE god Perun (same as Baltic Perkunas, Celtic Taranis, germanic Thor).... logically, in some myths Zorya is Perun's wife, while she is said to serve Dažbog....



worship of Dagon is mentioned in old testament as worshiped by tribe of Asher:


In the Tanakh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanakh) (also referred to as the Old Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Testament) or Hebrew Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_Bible)), Dagon is particularly the god of the Philistines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistine) with temples at Beth-dagon in thetribe of Asher (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_of_Asher) (Joshua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Joshua) 19.27), in Gaza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza) (Judges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Judges)16.23, which tells soon after how the temple is destroyed by Samson (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samson) as his last act).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tribe_of_Asher

tribe of Asher is one of the ten lost tribes of Israel....

wikipedia makes curious sentence from suspicious source "Asher Tribe also has links to preancient and ancient India, China and Central Asia, Siberia and Europe, as well as the Americas"

now, if Philistines partially origin from "sea people" (e.g. tribe Dan from Denyen) than Asher can be related to tribal name of Serres/Serians which is a tribe related to Siberia, central Asia, China and Europe...

.................................................. .................................................. ....


note that tribal name such as Deutch may as well be derived from Dagon in same way as Dacians.... name Dutch is exonym comming from England....


it is interesting to wonder whether name of central deity has legacy in modern languages

in many cultures, it would be normal to greet people with mention of God...
a day/night cycle is also typically related to primary God...
hence it is expected that a word for "day" may have something to do with ancient deities...

"day" also as in greeting "good day" in dutch is "Dag" in german "tag" which could relate to Dagon

english "day" however may come from "Dei" as in "deity" like Greek Deus

in Slavic countries "day" is "dan" and for "dawn" is "zora/zorya"
(Zorya/Danica)


it might indicate that english language doesnot origin from area of Dagon
hence there "dog" is word used for tamed wolf (wolfs being people under Dagon - e.g. Dacians...)
in english in fact word "God" is reversed of "Dog"
while in Slavic reversed deity would now be referred to as "Gad"...

the differences that we see in language could be a reflection of an old division in religious groups....

Dacians and Germans being Dagon worship areas, Slavs being related to Isher/Ishtar/Ser/Zorya
and Scandinavians and Danes (from where english comes to UK) being perhaps originally related to some other religion....maybe something alike to the one of ancient Greeks...


----------------------------------------------------------
after linking Ishara/ Ishtar/Ser/Zorya
and relating ancient ancestors of Serbs with Dagon worship

maybe link to Celtic connection should be reexplored...
in
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26549-Celtic-Serbian-parallels&p=390588&viewfull=1#post390588

Taranis claimed
"Danu is an Indo-European river/mother goddess found both in Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)) and in Hindu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Asura)) mythology. It is clearly unrelated with the Slavic word for day, and a connection with Zorya (or with "Danitsa") is completely spurious."
Zorya = Dawn Dan = day
its about mother goddess essentially


if Zorya is in fact Ishar/Ishtar as I show above and
Danube (where Danubian Slavs who worship her live), is alternativelly called Istar,
does not that give a clue that it is the more or less the same godess afterall

"Dagda is derived from earlier *Dagodeiwos (as you wrote above), meaning 'good god'. Dagda is also known as "Ollathair"
- Dajbog is derived from Proto-Slavic *dati- (to give, compare with Latin "dare", Greek "dosis") and PIE *bhag- (to divide, compare Sanskrit "bhajati" - "to distribute"). Dajbog is thus the "giving god" or possibly, the "giver of wealth"."

in my opinion both were legacy of Dagon worship....
what is "good god" but the one who "gives"...
but it is not that God is named after words, but words came to existance after name of God...Dagon in this case...

-------------------------------------
note that Zeruiani are widely interpreted and Serbs, but in fact that is in my opinion name of pre-Slavic people.... while Serbs are a border part of that stock... e.g. same like Zebulun tribe of Israel is on south border of tribe Asher....

this is logical comparison as Israel area was likely settled during invasion of sea peoples coming from north... and as legend says northerners made a conspiracy and united to invade south areas..... tribes of Israel are perhaps a set of colonies founded by various northern nations....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg/394px-12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg.png

how yes no 3
11-09-12, 01:53
note that Zeruiani are widely interpreted as Serbs, but in fact that is in my opinion name of pre-Slavic people.... while Serbs are a border part of that stock... e.g. same like Zebulun tribe of Israel is on south border of tribe Asher....

this is logical comparison as Israel area was likely settled during invasion of sea peoples coming from north... and as legend says northerners made a conspiracy and united to invade south areas..... tribes of Israel are perhaps a set of colonies founded by various northern nations....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c2/12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg/394px-12_Tribes_of_Israel_Map.svg.png

Curiously, a son of Zebulun is called Sered, founder of family/tribe Seredites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebulun

Now, Seredites would logically be written down as "srd" in middle east manuscripts, which is a name under which we find Sherdana...

note that i do not imply Israelite origin of Sered...
what I say is that every Israelite tribe had myth of origin that defined its relation to other tribes and that Israelite manuscripts wrote those down.... while Sered people perhaps existed much before this is written down and same as other northerners who came with "sea people" majority of them lived outside of their Palestine colony.....

but it is just an idea of course...


Asher is probably same as ancient Assyrian/Syrian
now core of Asyrian empire matches in shape and location fairly well distribution of Kurds today

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Map_of_Assyria.png/800px-Map_of_Assyria.png


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_%281992%29.jpg/734px-Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_%281992%29.jpg


Sorani (central Kurdish folk) would be a continuation of Asher/Assyrian/Syrian tribal name...


Egyptian sources: in 12th century Hittite collapse and their lands (Hatti, Karkemisch, Syria...) are taken over by sea people....sea people are coalition of northerners from all lands....
Assyrian sources: in 12th century Hittite falls under Phrygians and Assyrians take over what is now called Syria (but Assyrians = Syrians in Greek sources)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/300px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png

now, this leads to conclusion: among "sea people" are Phrygians, but probably allied with Assyrians and some other people...or as Egyptians stated "northerners from all sides".

why "sea people"? perhaps many of them share Dagon worship religion....worship of genuine "sea people".... but is that really the case?

MOESAN
11-09-12, 14:32
Curiously, a son of Zebulun is called Sered, founder of family/tribe Seredites.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebulun

Now, Seredites would logically be written down as "srd" in middle east manuscripts, which is a name under which we find Sherdana...

note that i do not imply Israelite origin of Sered...
what I say is that every Israelite tribe had myth of origin that defined its relation to other tribes and that Israelite manuscripts wrote those down.... while Sered people perhaps existed much before this is written down and same as other northerners who came with "sea people" majority of them lived outside of their Palestine colony.....

but it is just an idea of course...




Asher is probably same as ancient Assyrian/Syrian
now core of Asyrian empire matches in shape and location fairly well distribution of Kurds today

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c1/Map_of_Assyria.png/800px-Map_of_Assyria.png


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_%281992%29.jpg/734px-Kurdish-inhabited_area_by_CIA_%281992%29.jpg


Sorani (central Kurdish folk) would be a continuation of Asher/Assyrian/Syrian tribal name...


Egyptian sources: in 12th century Hittite collapse and their lands (Hatti, Karkemisch, Syria...) are taken over by sea people....sea people are coalition of northerners from all lands....
Assyrian sources: in 12th century Hittite falls under Phrygians and Assyrians take over what is now called Syria (but Assyrians = Syrians in Greek sources)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/300px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png

now, this leads to conclusion: among "sea people" are Phrygians, but probably allied with Assyrians and some other people...or as Egyptians stated "northerners from all sides".

why "sea people"? perhaps many of them share Dagon worship religion....worship of genuine "sea people".... but is that really the case?



I take on very late: yoy give life again to a very heavy and indigest thread where I red a lot of interesting things and too a lot of "rubbish"
the multiple origins of the Sea People is for me well established (backed up?) -
surely the consequence of several important "domino" events pushing into play a lot of different stocks of tribes (different languages and origins, I-E and not) -
doing hypothesis is a first step in science so I see no matter here to conflict -
but hypothesis is not proof: I find you go very quickly to identification when you speak about 'ser', 'serd', 'serb', 'scord' (you identifying 'serbonis' and 'sharadan': some changes verified in some languages didn't take place in others ones... linguistic is not a shoolyard play - B and D appears to me well differentiated by ancient Egyptians scribes, as an example... for S(h)erdana and Sardinians (modern) I sea a possible link with Sardes, a region of Pontus (N-Anatolia), and for the Dan- one in W-Anatolia-S-Balkans
I don't find stupid the searching of old tribes names correlations (the proof is just above) but we have to be more cautious -
& remark: consider languages as a stuff folks can change at command is very surprising to me: at modern times we see how hard it is to learn new languages! only a "drown down" situation makes it possible or an inferior cultural political position and yet then it takes some centuries... (what the direction, Gauls and Franks didn't change language in 5 minuts...

how yes no 3
11-09-12, 20:29
I take on very late: yoy give life again to a very heavy and indigest thread where I red a lot of interesting things and too a lot of "rubbish".
the multiple origins of the Sea People is for me well established (backed up?) -
surely the consequence of several important "domino" events pushing into play a lot of different stocks of tribes (different languages and origins, I-E and not) -
doing hypothesis is a first step in science so I see no matter here to conflict -
but hypothesis is not proof: I find you go very quickly to identification when you speak about 'ser', 'serd', 'serb', 'scord' (you identifying 'serbonis' and 'sharadan':

the way I state things is often in a strong form, but I thought it is always clear, that what I state is just a working hypothesys....it is not yet complete foolproof theory, but some parts of it are converging to it, while some parts are diverging (like tribal names Serd and Ser being of same root)


some changes verified in some languages didn't take place in others ones... linguistic is not a shoolyard play - B and D appears to me well differentiated by ancient Egyptians scribes, as an example... for S(h)erdana and Sardinians (modern) I sea a possible link with Sardes, a region of Pontus (N-Anatolia), and for the Dan- one in W-Anatolia-S-Balkans
yes, Sardes would be Phrygians and hence fits nice into Assyrian sources of who brought down Hittite...
Sardes being originally town of Sherdana would explain why Sherdana participate on side of Egypt in battle of Kadesh (Hittite being their primal enemies in their living space)

Sherdana - Serdi-Scordisci is clear linguistic link with same srd root...which indicates (not a proof of any kind) a possible continuity of tribal names

Sherdana - Serb tribal name link comes from knowledge that Sherdana left behind them a place name called Serbonis... but that is far fetched hypothesys.... it however makes sense in the context of locations...

if Sherdana live in Asia minor they may have been logical spread from Balkan along the Danube...identical to penetration of Serdi to Asia minor.... one other aspect is that Assyrian call "mushki" the Phrygians who defeated Hittite... "mushki" in serbian means "males" often used in sense "fellow males" as in team sport when one wants to cheer up own team players some people would say "ajmo mushki" or "come on mushki"

note also the ancient town of Serdica on Balkans being nowadays Sofia, that falls into Scordisci settled area... and mounatin Scardus named after Scordisci located nearby in south Balkans in area of west FYRM -north Albania- south-southwest Kosovo (which is officially at least in majority of countries still south most part of Serbia)

this also being area of spread of Vinca culture that shares worship of human-fish deities with later Assyrians....and a link from Karlovac rodoslov about Serbs also worshiping Dagion in their ancient history...

link of Scordisci to Serbs comes from Russian primary chronicle that puts proto-Serbs in Danubian Slavs living prior to Roman empire expansion exactly in places where Scordisci lived....

so I think that the hypothesis makes sense, as multiple indications support it and there is no indication that strongly opposes to it....


I don't find stupid the searching of old tribes names correlations (the proof is just above) but we have to be more cautious -
& remark: consider languages as a stuff folks can change at command is very surprising to me: at modern times we see how hard it is to learn new languages! only a "drown down" situation makes it possible or an inferior cultural political position and yet then it takes some centuries... (what the direction, Gauls and Franks didn't change language in 5 minuts...


languages do not change in 5 minutes but we speak here of events that spans thousands of years, so negation of language shift is not logical to assume...

the way I see it, Sherdana spread along Danube and Black sea and at some point also penetrated coasts of Asia minor...
Scordisci would be the ones who much later still live along Danube, sometimes as low as north Greece, sometimes as high as Bohemia......


what I however came to realize over span of time is that link Asher/Assyrians/Syrians/Seres/Serians/Zeruiani/Sorani (Zeruiani is name used for peoople whose state is so big that all Slavs origin from it according to Bavarian geographer, while Asher tribe seems to have links to Siberia, central Asia, Europe...) to Sherdana /Scordisci/Serbs is not natural... i think it is accidental ... though I still think that in wider term Sherdana were part of Serians/Zeruiani.... perhaps linked in ancient times by shared religion....

word Serb seems to be explainable with PIE root that has a meaning "end" and "turn" (...note that those two translations are related - "end" is also a place to "turn") which may indicate border lands and people who are essentially warriors, the ones who can "turn" the outcome of a battle, but also may "turn" sides (language shift)....e.g. word "Wend" (used for so called Lusatian Serbs who live in Germany and in wider sense for Slavic people in general) has same PIE meaning... if you look at recent history Wends(Sorbs or Serbya how they call themselves or Lusatian Serbs how they are also called) many of them has undergone language shift to German and became proper Germans with Slavic alike last names... Leibniz being a noteable example...

naming people in border lands using word whose meaning is "end" is still typical for Slavs (e.g. in Ukraine that comes from "kraj" = end, and on numerous border regions in Balkan carrying name "Krajina" and its people being called "Krajišnici")

De administrando imperio places Serbs prior to settlement on Balkan in area of white Serbia or Boika (which by given description fits Bohemia/Bavaria) and states that there they were called "white" (which might be an attempt of author to interpret Wend with Celtic language where similar word means 'white' or alternatively or simultanously is related to designation for west = white typical for iranians, nomad tribes of Euroasia and it seems for Slavs as well - as in white Croatia, or Belarus (white Russia) or Bela (white) Krajina - situated more or less in south Slovenia and being northwest most part of Croatian living space and west most part of former "military frontier" area (also known as "Krajina" - it was a buffer zone between Austro-Hungarian and Turkish empires and settled with Serbs and Croats who were protecting borders of Austro-Hungarian empire)


if Sherdana and Scordisci would belong to Serians/Zeruiani stock they would also be border people living in (south)west most area of influence.... which is comparable to Seredites of Zebulun tribe living south of Asher in what would be south(west) most border area of Serian/Syrian stock...

of course those time spans are so big that is impossible to equate proto-Slavs with Serians/Zeruiani, but is perhaps possible to link ancient origin of Slavs to a part of Serians/Zeruiani stock... I made a link above through Ishara (wife of Dagon)/Isther being essentially same goddess as Slavic Zorya (who serves Daž-bog ("bog" = god)....

alternatively, "srd" root might be linked to slavic word "sredina" which means in the middle... "kurd" in that sense might be about people living in the middle of Assyrian/Syrian/Serian/Zeruiani spread (see in post above maps that compare Assyrian and Kurd location)...this interpretation would indicate that origin of tribal name Kurd predates centum/satem split...

implication of applying "srd" = middle to Sherdana means that Serian stock did go further into west Europe (which makes sense as mention of white Syrian in Cappodokia seems linked to Gomer/Cimmerians and Gomer is considered forefather of Germanic people) and applying it to Seredites would be about mid of Israelite tribes....

note also that taking into account central position of Assyrian in PIE area, and relation of PIE vocabulary to Akkadian (Assyrian) we may think about German / Ker-man as centum version of Ser-man that is Serian people.....consider this in light of the fact that ancient DNA from Europe is quite different from modern one - indicating origin of modern European people somewhere in Asia... is there a better explanation than Assyrian/Sumero-Akkadian origin of PIE people...

oriental
12-09-12, 21:02
Destruction

Main article: Bronze Age Collapse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_Collapse)
The last Bronze Age king of Ugarit, Ammurapi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ammurapi), (circa 1215 to 1180 BC) was a contemporary of the Hittite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites) king Suppiluliuma II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppiluliuma_II). The exact dates of his reign are unknown. However, a letter[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit#cite_note-3) by the king is preserved, in which Ammurapi stresses the seriousness of the crisis faced by many Near Eastern states from invasion by the advancing Sea Peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_People) in a dramatic response to a plea for assistance from the king of Alasiya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alasiya). Ammurapi highlights the desperate situation Ugarit faced:
My father, behold, the enemy's ships came (here); my cities(?) were burned, and they did evil things in my country. Does not my father know that all my troops and chariots(?) are in the Land of Hatti, and all my ships are in the Land of Lukka?...Thus, the country is abandoned to itself. May my father know it: the seven ships of the enemy that came here inflicted much damage upon us.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit#cite_note-4)

Unfortunately for Ugarit, no help arrived, and the city was burned to the ground at the end of the Bronze Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse). Its destruction levels contained Late Helladic IIIB ware, but no LH IIIC (see Mycenaean period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_period)). Therefore, the date of the destruction of Ugarit is important for the dating of the LH IIIC phase in mainland Greece. Since an Egyptian sword bearing the name of pharaoh Merneptah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merneptah) was found in the destruction levels, 1190 BC was taken as the date for the beginning of the LH IIIC. A cuneiform tablet found in 1986 shows that Ugarit was destroyed after the death of Merneptah (1203 BC). It is generally agreed that Ugarit had already been destroyed by the 8th year of Ramesses III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_III) (1178 BC). Recent radiocarbon work indicates a destruction between 1192 and 1190 BC.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit#cite_note-5)
Whether Ugarit was destroyed before or after Hattusa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattusa), the Hittite capital, is debated. The destruction is followed by a settlement hiatus. Many other Mediterranean cultures were deeply disordered just at the same time, apparently by invasions of the mysterious "Sea Peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples)."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ugarit

oriental
12-09-12, 23:10
The Lukka lands are often mentioned in Hittite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hittites) texts from the second millennium BC. It denotes a region in the southwestern part of Anatolia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia). The Lukka lands were never put under permanent Hittite control and were viewed as hostile by the Hittites.
It is commonly accepted that the Bronze Age toponym Lukka is cognate with classical Lycia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia). There is a contrast between the maximalist and the minimalist views with regard to the extent of the Lukka Lands. The maximalist view is upheld by Trevor Bryce, who discusses the occurrences of Lukka in Bronze Age texts.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukka_lands#cite_note-0)

From these texts we can conclude the Lukka, or Lukka lands, referred to a regions extending from the western end of Pamphylia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pamphylia), through Lycaonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycaonia), Pisidia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pisidia) and Lycia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia).
The minimalist view is upheld by Ilya Yakubovich, who concludes based on the analysis of textual evidence:[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukka_lands#cite_note-1)

[W]e have positive philological arguments for the presence of Bronze Age Lukka settlements in classical Lycia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia), but not anywhere else in Asia Minor or beyond it.
Soldiers from the Lukka lands fought on the Hittite side in the famous Battle of Kadesh (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kadesh) (ca. 1274 BC) against the Egyptian Pharaoh Ramesses II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II). A century later the Lukka had turned against the Hittites. The Hittite king Suppiluliuma II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppiluliuma_II) tried in vain to defeat the Lukka. They contributed to the collapse of the Hittite empire.
The Lukka is also known from ancient Egyptian texts. They were one of the tribes that constituted the Sea Peoples (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples) who invaded Egypt and the Eastern Mediterranean in the twelfth century BC.[3]


(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukka_lands#cite_note-2)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lukka_lands

oriental
12-09-12, 23:15
It seems Ugarit king had all his land forces in Hatti and in Lukka (southwest Anatolia) so the city was defenseless. It seems he was on the side of the Hittites who were destroyed by the Sea Peoples composed of varies Anatolian tribes.

oriental
12-09-12, 23:25
Seres seem to describe the Kushans who occupied Sinkiang province in China during the Roman Empire period. The Sakas are similar people who were in Kashgar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

The Sakas, a Scythian people and the Kushans are today's Punjabis with turbans and of the Sikh religion.

zanipolo
12-09-12, 23:44
the way I state things is often in a strong form, but I thought it is always clear, that what I state is just a working hypothesys....it is not yet complete foolproof theory, but some parts of it are converging to it, while some parts are diverging (like tribal names Serd and Ser being of same root)


yes, Sardes would be Phrygians and hence fits nice into Assyrian sources of who brought down Hittite...
Sardes being originally town of Sherdana would explain why Sherdana participate on side of Egypt in battle of Kadesh (Hittite being their primal enemies in their living space)

Sherdana - Serdi-Scordisci is clear linguistic link with same srd root...which indicates (not a proof of any kind) a possible continuity of tribal names


Serdi and Scordisci are both celtic tribes in the balkans, they have nothing to do with Ser. The triballi became the Serbs after these celtic tribes destroyed the Triballi.
Serdi resided in modern day Bulgaria - basically the capital area of Sofia and the Scordisci where NW of them.

The medieval nobility of Serbs always took the triballi as their origins

Where are you leading your comments to?

how yes no 3
13-09-12, 19:40
Where are you leading your comments to?
my comments are just aloud thinking....

they seem to lead to Serians being in ancient past a tribal name used by most of today IE stock, and not just for ancestors of Serbs as I have originally suspected 2-3 years ago...

sea people may be Phrygians plus Assyrians and some other....

christianguy
18-03-13, 21:34
I came across a page discussing the link between the Shardana / Sheridan name while researching a subject for bible study. Apparently they are working on a major tribe of dan revival over there! princeofdan dot org

Alan
15-05-14, 01:44
You do realize that Germiyan has no meaning in Turkish? In Parthian and Sassanid times the region around Kirkuk and Diyala was called Garmakan what means warm land. This land is nowadays called Germiyan by Kurds.

The word Germiyan derives from Kurdish. Germ means warm in Kurdish and Germiyan means warm place. It has absolutely zero to do with Cimmerians who were called Gamiri.

Seljuks simply adopted this name from Iranians.

Sile
15-05-14, 02:01
You do realize that Germiyan has no meaning in Turkish? In Parthian and Sassanid times the region around Kirkuk and Diyala was called Garmakan what means warm land. This land is nowadays called Germiyan by Kurds.

The word Germiyan derives from Kurdish. Germ means warm in Kurdish and Germiyan means warm place. It has absolutely zero to do with Cimmerians who were called Gamiri.

Seljuks simply adopted this name from Iranians.

Germiyan is the "modern" term for the ancient area of Lukka .........home of Lycians.......who where eventually conquered by Carians
Where did the Carians come from?

Alan
15-05-14, 12:16
Germiyan is the "modern" term for the ancient area of Lukka .........home of Lycians.......who where eventually conquered by Carians
Where did the Carians come from?

I don't know about Lycians but what I know is that Germiyan means warm place in Kurdish and Kirkuk is called Germiyan in Kurdish language.


germ/garm simply means warm. This is Germiyan https://www.flickr.com/photos/kurdistan4all/3818965100/

Pax Augusta
23-06-14, 19:31
because turks are turkify anatolians. Anatolians spoke indo european they have still loan word from. anatolian languages.

How much of Turks are ethnic Turks?

Yetos
07-07-14, 21:54
Kurds are iranian people , they not Anatolian :D Cimmerians and Hurians just another one ancestor of Anatolian people. Dont forget Cimmerians and Hurrians stayed Anatolia!!!!

Germiyani is Anatolian (Germiyan beylik-Anatolian word)

i know men he blame to Kurd name delivered from Qrt mean in assyrian language brave!Look where area the kurdish people live only assyrians live those area

Kurds or Καρδουχοι etc are mentioned in Alexander's the Great campain as mountain Aryans, Areioi = archers from Homeric Aορ Αορτη arrow
they are also mentioned to Medeia and Jason that spoke not Iranian IndoIranian Pharsi etc but Aryan (IranoGeorgian) Georgian are also named as GURciD by Pontic Greeks

By Considering the Greco-Aryan IE Theory KURD means Dancer, ΚΟΥΡΗΤΕΣ (Horon) and indeed kurds share round dances that can be found only in Balkans
by considering Summerian means mountain people KUR= MOUNTAIN in Summerian a word exist also in Greek KΟΡΥΦΗ

About Assyrians?
ZAGROS and ΖΑΓΡΑΙΟΣ ΖΕΥΣ is not co-incidence,
Medea from Kolchis found Αρειοι that spoke the same Language in North of the lake,
besides Germ is IE word (Greek Therm) Germidava is an ancient city,
Germ also ment Warm in ancient Thracian and Phrygians were Thracians, Ikonio (Konya) was build by Zeus-Bakchos Thracians
Germ Warm Therm is the same,

in fact in between Kurds Laz Georgids is possible (there are some chances) to be homeland of all IE languages
just think Kurdish anahitta (female) and Homeric Anax (male)

Yetos
07-07-14, 22:26
my comments are just aloud thinking....

they seem to lead to Serians being in ancient past a tribal name used by most of today IE stock, and not just for ancestors of Serbs as I have originally suspected 2-3 years ago...

sea people may be Phrygians plus Assyrians and some other....

Phrygians were Thracians from Today areas among Makedonia Bardarska Albania and maybe South Serbia, named as Bryges by Makedonians (Makedonian dialect use V instead of Attic Ph Βρεαρ-Φρεαρ water spring, Βερενικη-Φερενικη veronica, Κεβαλη-KΕφαλη glava Head)
Phrygians moved to minor Asia after Troyan war, and by the times of karamos existed still in Balkans, Bryges were mountain inland people, not sea people, from continental balkans to continental minor Asia,
we can say that their devastation to minor Asia was chain reaction of Sea peoples to Italy.

there is also a historical fact at 1100 Assyrians vs Muski (Myssians Μυσσοι) but assyrians use that word for Phrygians also
besides
Brygians build 3 cities Tyana Gordium and Dascylium next to Myssians
it is not coincindence that Myssians share same name with Moessians and Dacians with Dascylium
they even reach Euphratis river but never in Sea.

they may cause the vacuum of the last Etruscans to Italy, or they just enter to fill the void

oriental
07-07-14, 22:45
Here are some illustrations of their ships:

http://lakodaemon.co.uk/the-ships-of-the-sea-peoples-part-2/

and some information found on the internet:

http://www.american-buddha.com/bible.seapeopleshellpeczynski1.htm

Sile
08-07-14, 03:13
%5-4 population real turk as a central Anatolian i can say, my grand mother from eastern Anatolia(she is native eastern) . Her family tortured by kurds after they emigrate central Anatolia.

there is 0% of real Turk in Anatolia before 1500 years ago............I mean zero percent, Nil

howyesno
24-12-17, 00:00
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png

Sherdana - along sea-side.. on west shores of Asia minor where ancient town of Sardis was, along shores of Mediteranean sea, especially on Cyprus as a good port island for sea attacks on Egypt, on middle east (it was also a wave of settlers that used land) and on the land where Scordisci lived (nowaday Serb lands)...

indeed it could be that the name of Scordisci is of same origin as the name Sherdana with common root shrd..
the tribe that went from the teritory of Scordisci to neighbouring Thrace was known there as Serdi meaning that Scordisci may indeed have been celticized form of Serdi/Sherdana

Jovialis
24-12-17, 00:39
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2b1.png
Sherdana - along sea-side.. on west shores of Asia minor where ancient town of Sardis was, along shores of Mediteranean sea, especially on Cyprus as a good port island for sea attacks on Egypt, on middle east (it was also a wave of settlers that used land) and on the land where Scordisci lived (nowaday Serb lands)...
indeed it could be that the name of Scordisci is of same origin as the name Sherdana with common root shrd..
the tribe that went from the teritory of Scordisci to neighbouring Thrace was known there as Serdi meaning that Scordisci may indeed have been celticized form of Serdi/Sherdana

Actually, many scholars attribute them to the Sardinians:

https://i.imgur.com/mev9kLc.png

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#Hypotheses_about_identity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

howyesno
24-12-17, 00:45
Actually, many scholars attribute them to the Sardinians:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_Peoples#Hypotheses_about_identity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherden

yes, because SRD root in name and because Sardinia is an island in Mediteranean...
J2b1 better explains order of conquest that included landlocked lands such as Hatti kingdom..
its too far away from Sardinia... and far from Mediteranean sea..




5) order of conquer: Hatti, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashya, Egypt
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Amarnamap.png/772px-Amarnamap.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carchemish


movement of people with woman, children, oxes doesnot really fit well with image of ship only attack....
so I think it was a mass wave of ground invasion accompanied by ships...
thus it went along coastlines...

I think they went to Black sea coast and from there on Hatti state and continued by land to Syria.....
through the lands of nowadays Kurds

J2b1 has that route..

Jovialis
24-12-17, 00:47
yes, because SRD root in name and because Sardinia is an island in Mediteranean...
J2b1 better explains order of conquest that included lands such as Hatti kingdom..
I think they went to Black sea coast on Hatti state and continued by land to Syria.....
through the lands of nowadays Kurds

How the could their haplogroup be known if we don't even have samples from them???

Is this something you came up with on your own, or do you actually have some reference for this?

howyesno
24-12-17, 00:50
How the could their haplogroup be known if we don't even have samples from them???

Is this something you came up with on your own, or do you actually have some reference for this?

its just my educated guess

Jovialis
24-12-17, 00:52
its just my educated guess

Well actually I think the scholars who theorized they came from Sardinia are a little more educated on their guess.

howyesno
24-12-17, 01:01
Well actually I think the scholars who theorized they came from Sardinia are a little more educated on their guess.
Sardinia was their educated guess prior to genetics...

J2b1 theory doesnot exclude Sardinia... maybe map of J2b1 is incomplete or J2b1 disappeared from Sardinia during the times...

Jovialis
24-12-17, 01:05
J2b1 theory doesnot exclude Sardinia... maybe map of J2b1 is incomplete or J2b1 disappeared from there during the times...

Again, we don't have sample from them. Also, look at the map legend, >5% in Cypriots, which is most likely from Greeks or earlier settlement.

Was? They still theorize they come from Sardinia.

Also, Sherden is what the Egyptians called them. What we know about them comes from their accounts.

howyesno
24-12-17, 01:25
Again, we don't have sample from them. Also, look at the map legend, >5% in Cypriots, which is most likely from Greeks or earlier settlement.

Was? They still theorize they come from Sardinia.

Also, Sherden is what the Egyptians called them. What we know about them comes from their accounts.

Good clue for Sardinia are horns...
Sherdana had them on Egyptian pictures and there are nuragic Sardinian figures with horns...

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ab/Bronzetto_nuragico_Sulcis.jpg/90px-Bronzetto_nuragico_Sulcis.jpg

in that case I2a1 fits better...Sardis and Scordisci link is still valid

https://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif