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Regulus
09-11-10, 17:20
While reading the article "Geographic Spread and Ethnic Origins of European Haplogroups and Subclades", I came across the map labled "Distribution of Haplogroup R1a is Eurasia".
On the map are displayed two regions where the R1a percentage is 50%.
What I found most striking was that the band on the left, which runs roughly from Germany to the Crimea, seemed to mirror very closely the extent of the Ostrogothic kingdom at its height under Ermanarich just before the Hunnish invasion.
I am certainly not pretending to suggest an "aha!" moment, especially as the Ostrogothic hegemony did not last very long (aside from a pocket in the crimea). What I am looking for is input from others as to what they may think. For example, has there ever been a suggestion that R1a may have a higher concentration among those of the Eastern Germannic branch?

Noman
24-08-13, 22:13
That would be very telling if true. I don't think they left a huge genetic mark where they were, in spite of the big historical events they triggered.

Tabaccus Maximus
27-08-13, 02:37
Maciamo just posted two maps showing the Caucasian gene K12b and the Gedrosian gene associated with R1b.

K12b looks to me to be something spread relatively late. I suggested the presence of K12b in Italy and Spain could have been inherited from a substantial Gothic presence in those countries. I imagine they brought with them a Crimean component in their ancestry.
The rest looks like the Ottoman Empire.

I have absolutely no idea, just making a suggestion worth investigating.

matbir
12-09-13, 20:47
Map of R1a needs serious update, because now it is wrong for whole central and Eastern Europe. On Wikipedia is my map of distribution of R1a in central Europe with reference points. Also Oleg Balanovsky's map from his study "Two Sources of the Russian Heritage in Their Eurasian Context" shows that in western Ukraine R1a is below 45%.
But it is reasonable that R1a could have been dominant or at least one of main haplogroups in Goths, especially it makes sense when you look at frequencies in Poland.

MOESAN
15-09-13, 18:07
I do not think traces of ancient people or tribes disappear totally (we see the contrary very often) BUT IT IS NOT TO SAY THE PRESENT DAY GENETICAL SKETCHE OF THE COUNTRIES REFLECT EXACTLY THE ORIGINAL SITUTATION, whatever the place -
very too often I read conclusions 'a priori' made by person who choose in History (very unstable) the folk they "love" (or "hate") and attributate to it an HG with its present day distribution...
concerning Goths and Alani and others, of the Great Invasions period I suppose the moved very too quickly and to far for being well equilbrated population with normal percentages of women and children - they were more males bands of warriors that settled here and there, imposing their militar strength and getting away after than true colonisators : they left some genetic traces, it is obliged, but not a lot - according to their number and the time they stayed...
I even ask me if the celtic and belgian tribes that crossed Gaul to W-Spain and Portugal, coming for the most from today Rhineland at last bronze Age and Iron Age, and that took the same rivers (Duro, Tajo) and that piled one upon the other, did not leave more genetic traces there than the GREAT last germanic or alanic EMPIRES ???

matbir
17-09-13, 16:48
Meason I understand why caution is needed when you are trying to connect modern population to historical one. That was my point, even if this map were proper, it wouldn't be Gothic link, because we don't know what haplogroups Goths were composed of.
But Gothic connection to R1a which I supported is only guess not assumption.

MOESAN
20-09-13, 21:15
Meason I understand why caution is needed when you are trying to connect modern population to historical one. That was my point, even if this map were proper, it wouldn't be Gothic link, because we don't know what haplogroups Goths were composed of.
But Gothic connection to R1a which I supported is only guess not assumption.

all right - I believe Goths (W & O) had a lot of Y-R1a, but not only: they surely had non negligeable Y-R1b and Y-I1, and some traces of others (but light) - they surely enough took with them some parts of other tribes ontheir way even if not a huge number - so Y-Ra presence is very sensible among Goths I agree but as Eastern Europe is full of Y-R1a developped among other ethnies (Balts, Slavs, Scythians ...)to verify which ones were their "proper" R1a we need deeper subclades studies

Sile
20-09-13, 23:37
all right - I believe Goths (W & O) had a lot of Y-R1a, but not only: they surely had non negligeable Y-R1b and Y-I1, and some traces of others (but light) - they surely enough took with them some parts of other tribes ontheir way even if not a huge number - so Y-Ra presence is very sensible among Goths I agree but as Eastern Europe is full of Y-R1a developped among other ethnies (Balts, Slavs, Scythians ...)to verify which ones were their "proper" R1a we need deeper subclades studies

ancient historians state that the goths recruited the following peoples before settling on the northern side of the Black sea:
Aestii
Venedi
Bastarnae

the goths stayed on the black sea for over 200 years, clearly recruiting the
sarmatians
scythians
getae
and most probably some dacians

Modern historians always doubted the Goths had the manpower to achieve anything unless they recruited local people in a massive way

MOESAN
27-09-13, 23:54
ancient historians state that the goths recruited the following peoples before settling on the northern side of the Black sea:
Aestii
Venedi
Bastarnae

the goths stayed on the black sea for over 200 years, clearly recruiting the
sarmatians
scythians
getae
and most probably some dacians

Modern historians always doubted the Goths had the manpower to achieve anything unless they recruited local people in a massive way

thanks for the post - we lack percentages helas! but what you say here is sensible -

for minor %s of SNPs we lack big samples: what I see in Maciamo is a slight elevation of Y-R1b-U152 in all Western Iberia and the same for Y-R1a in Asutrias, Cantabria ,and North Leon bt not in Portugal (reconquista? forthis last one?): for Y-I1, some very slight elevation in West Iberia too - all the way very few to extrapolate about Germanics and pseudo-Germanics people in Iberia (Valencia has a bit of Y-I1 too)...

adamo
28-09-13, 09:04
R1a arrived from the UkrAinian refuge. Take Croatia, for example, in the northwestern Balkans. The part of Croatia nearest to Hungary/Serbia has 25-45% of it's men R1a. Once we attain the Adriatic coast of Croatia near Slovenia and Bosnia, the frequencies fall to about 20-30% on average. R1b on the other hand, peaks near Slovenia at 20-25% and rapidly descends from there. National levels of R1a in Croatia in my opinion are about 35%. Slightly higher values as found in Slovenia (40%).

RobertColumbia
20-07-15, 05:05
Meason I understand why caution is needed when you are trying to connect modern population to historical one. That was my point, even if this map were proper, it wouldn't be Gothic link, because we don't know what haplogroups Goths were composed of.
But Gothic connection to R1a which I supported is only guess not assumption.

In the absence of evidence to the contrary, it seems reasonable to presume that, as a Germanic-speaking people, they were probably similar to but not exactly identical with other Germanic-speaking populations, which we know to be a mix of primarily R1a, R1b, and I1.

AxelHagen
02-09-19, 21:43
I'm belonging to R1a y2902(which maybe correlates with Goths by Eupedia) and my ancestors were from Central Germany. I'm from the same point because Goths were from Wehlbark- Chernyahov cultures and we can see this SNP in western Europe among western- central germans(Hesse and Baden-Württemberg), southern France and Northern Spain

AxelHagen
02-09-19, 21:54
Wielbark- Chernyakhov*

Illyri
03-09-19, 00:19
Very interesting. Are you R1a - Y2902* or do you belong to another deep subclade ?

As for myself, I am Albanian (my father originates from South Albania) and I also belong to R1a - Y2902 (my deep subclade being YP3994).

According to SNP Tracker, R1a-YP3994 was present in Western Slovakia in the Iron Age, but I do not know how reliable this tracker is and whether it is based on ancient DNA or merely refers to the forming ages of the various subclades.
According to the FTDNA R1a Project, R1a-YP3994 is currently present in the United Kingdom, in Sicily (Palermo), Albania, Bulgaria and Russia. In addition to me, there is another Çam Albanian (from Gumenica, Greece) who should belong to the same subclade (he is my only YDNA "cousin").

The fact that YP3994 is present in the Balkans and in South Italy as well could support a Gothic related expansion (but its current geographical spread could also be the result of the Albanian medieval migrations to South Italy and Bulgaria). It could certainly help to know its forming age.

An administrator from the Albanian Bloodlines Project told me that this lineage's arrival in Albania was more likely related to the Slavic migrations in the Late Antiquity/early Middle Ages (he pointed out that certain sister subclades under Y2902 are exclusively Polish and Russian and doubted that the Goths had such an impact in Eastern Europe). Finally, it is also worth noting that the company through which I first tested (up to the CTS8816 level) did not mention the Goths at all and concluded that CTS8816 could have been brought to the Balkans by the Slavs and/or the Illyrians (although I have found no scientific evidence to support the latter).

AxelHagen
03-09-19, 10:53
I don't know my deep subclade, but goths were originally from Poland and it's interesting how this subclade went to Western Europe. I have one volga german match from my branch (R-CTS8816; my ancestors from the same area as his)

AxelHagen
03-09-19, 10:58
from an article about R1b "R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic and Nordic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards."

AxelHagen
03-09-19, 11:20
maybe slavs, maybe goths or both

Illyri
03-09-19, 12:10
I don't know my deep subclade, but goths were originally from Poland and it's interesting how this subclade went to Western Europe. I have one volga german match from my branch (R-CTS8816; my ancestors from the same area as his)

This match is indeed an interesting indication to support a germanic connection of R-CTS8816.

Illyri
03-09-19, 12:12
maybe slavs, maybe goths or both

You are right, it might well be both.

Illyri
03-09-19, 12:50
from an article about R1b "R1b-S21 became the dominant haplogroup among the West Germanic tribes, but remained in the minority against I1 and R1a in East Germanic and Nordic tribes, including those originating from Sweden such as the Goths, the Vandals and Lombards."

Yes it seems that Western and Eastern Germanic had different Y haplo-groups proportions.

If you are interested on this topic, there is an interesting thread on this site. I cannot post links so I am simply sending you the title:

Ancient East, West and North Germanics had different Y-DNA lineages

AxelHagen
03-09-19, 13:24
Later I'll send a map of gothic migration through Europe and my DNA cousins have surnames like Hess, Krause, Glass, Kube and I also have slavic DNA cousins

AxelHagen
03-09-19, 15:39
https://sun9-20.userapi.com/c855228/v855228654/db287/rU_yPD400ow.jpghttps://sun9-34.userapi.com/c855736/v855736037/dfabc/L48HkLB11uE.jpghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Chernyakhov.PNG

AxelHagen
03-09-19, 15:50
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.png/800px-Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Pre_Migration_Age_Germanic.png

Illyri
03-09-19, 16:39
Thanks for the maps. The first map is very interesting as it shows pockets of R-Y2902 in the Balkans, in Italy, in Sicily and Sardinia, and South France, which partially corresponds to the Visigoths itinerary according to the second map (however I am not certain that they settled in Sicily). Do you know based on what research data the first map has been made ? It would be very interesting to the go through the precise figures.

AxelHagen
03-09-19, 16:42
First map was made on site Molgen.ru and it shows western branch of R1a y2902 in Europe. Idk the creator of this map

Illyri
03-09-19, 17:20
I do not understand Russian so it is difficult for me to grasp the context of the maps and thé related comments. Is there any information on that forum about the younger subclades of R-Y2902 belonging to the western branch ?
I assume that R-YP3994 should be part of them given its geographic spread

AxelHagen
03-09-19, 19:48
I have no information about western branch maybe because it's very rare. But it's interesting that this branch can be found in WE. In Russian sources sometimes it associated with Goths, sometimes with Slavs

AxelHagen
04-09-19, 09:46
https://sun9-44.userapi.com/c852224/v852224520/1a9f1b/gNYjlioO9ZA.jpg

Illyri
05-09-19, 00:19
However, it is difficult to draw a general conclusion and the possible "gothic" link would be limited to certain subclades.

According to FTDNA's big tree, R-Y2902's "mother" clade is mainly present in:

- Russia (29,12 % of R-CTS8816 carriers); and
- Poland (25,59 % of R-CTS8816 carriers).

While only a minority originates from Western Europe, i.e.:

- Germany (6.47 % of R-CTS8816 carriers);
- Italy (2,06 % of R-CTS8816 carriers);
- France (1,47 % of R-CTS8816 carriers);
- Spain (0,29 % of R-CTS8816 carriers).

And the carriers' number does not exceed 1,2 % in the Balkans.

This limited western/southern distribution is also confirmed by Yfull (https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-Y2902/) where you will see various exclusively Russian and Polish subclades (which of course does not take into account a possible German ancestry of the tested persons) but also certain atypical subclades such as the exclusively Sardinian R-Y1396 (which could have been brought by East Germanic invaders) and the basal Albanian R-Y3226* (which is for the moment only present in Albania).

Illyri
07-09-19, 23:48
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/65/Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.png/800px-Germanic_dialects_ca._AD_1.pnghttps://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Pre_Migration_Age_Germanic.png

Here is a link to a recent scientific paper (Stolarek, 2019) describing the Goths' initial migration and its impact on the MtDNA of central-east Europe.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-43183-w

The authors describe these migrations as follows:

A. In the first stage, the Goths colonized the mouth of the Vistula River during the 2nd and 1st centuries B.C.
B. Then, they spread west along the Baltic seashore.
C. The Goths moved south and ousted the Przeworsk culture from the northwest part of contemporary Poland, including Kowalewko (1st and 2nd centuries A.D.).
D. Then, they spread east of the Vistula, and then they migrated along the Vistula and Bug Rivers towards the Black See
E. The Goths established the Chernyakhov culture by mixing with Pontic–Caspian steppe populations.
F. Finally, a part of the Chernyakhov culture population moved back and established a large settlement near Masłomęcz called the “Masłomęcz group” (2nd and 3rd centuries A.D.).

Joey37
08-09-19, 01:22
I'm R1a and one of my closest groups in Mytrueancestry is the Visigoths. The Vandals are a closely related tribe and they brought R1a to Sardinia, distant cousins of my L1029 clade.

Illyri
11-09-19, 23:23
I'm R1a and one of my closest groups in Mytrueancestry is the Visigoths. The Vandals are a closely related tribe and they brought R1a to Sardinia, distant cousins of my L1029 clade.

Indeed, I found a basal R-L1029 on yfull. And according to Jordanès, there has been some interaction between the Goths and the Vandals (the former having subdued the latter upon their arrival in the Vistula bassin during the first century CE).

But Sardinian R1a seems quite diverse, as I also found these clades:

- R-Z93* (TMRCA 4700 ybp)
- R-Z2123 > Y24669 (formed 3'900 ybp)
- R-M458 > PF7536 and R-Z29307 (TMRCA 4700 ybp)
- R-Z92 > Y13891* (TMRCA 2'900 ybp)
- R-CTS1211 > YP372* (TMRCA 1'800 ybp)
- R-2902 > Y1396 and Y1399 (formed 2400 ybp, right below R-YP3994)

Given the various TMRCA's, it could have been brought by a serious of events. Has there been any scientific study on Sardinian R1a or any serious hypothesis (besides the Vandals) about its arrival on this island ?

Ownstyler
12-09-19, 04:21
Regarding Sardinians, the overwhelming majority of their results on YFull come from this study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23908240). As you can see, 1200 samples were tested with high coverage tests, so they are over-represented right now. As a consequence, you can see scattered Sardinian results almost on every branch.

For this case, you should look at clusters dominated by several Sardinian samples, for example: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PF4188/. As it happens, I-M26, which is upstream of that cluster, was also found in ancient Sardinian remains.

Illyri
15-09-19, 17:56
"Regarding Sardinians, the overwhelming majority of their results on YFull come from this study (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23908240). As you can see, 1200 samples were tested with high coverage tests, so they are over-represented right now. As a consequence, you can see scattered Sardinian results almost on every branch."

I understand now why there are so many Sardinian samples on the tree.

"For this case, you should look at clusters dominated by several Sardinian samples, for example: https://www.yfull.com/tree/I-PF4188/. As it happens, I-M26, which is upstream of that cluster, was also found in ancient Sardinian remains."

I am not sure to understand your second comment. For the time being, most of Sardinian R1a samples on the R1a tree seem to represent exclusive subclades. And I was inquiring about migratory events which could have brought various R1a subclades in Sardinia. Besides, it is quite clear that "I" is one of their major haplogroups since Sardinia is supposed to be representative of early Neolithic ancestry. As R1a does not belong to such ancestry (in Western / Southern Europe), I still wonder who brought it on this island and when. And the 2013 paper is not very specific on the subject as it only says that the variability of "R" subclades (R1a and R1b) is consistent with a Late Neolithic expansion. Roman and Vandalic dominations are also mentioned but only with respect to African subclades (A1b-M13 and E1a-M44).