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LeBrok
25-11-10, 00:08
Oops they did it again. Another unprovoked attack on South Korea by the North Korean's communist regime has happened recently in form of artillery and rocket barrage, aimed at one of South Korea's island.

Can someone explain why South Korea didn't finish North Korea few years ago???!!!

The time was right before North Korea got nuclear weapon capabilities, and after Chinese government opened to the west, a decade or so ago. Now it is a check mate, North Korea can molest South, and South can't do much about this, because North has the atom bomb and ballistic rockets for it.
What is South doing now? Nothing much, it has to take the abuse and pray that North won't be crazy enough to use the atom bomb. South is trapped in a role of good wife from arranged marriage, married to a violent drunk husband. What a sweet future.

For years I was angry at South Korea (SK) for letting the North Korea (NK) regime commit countless crimes against NK’s population. They went through a horrific famine, and probably through many smaller ones too. It's estimating that million people died because of it. All are the direct causes of North regime actions. Just for this the international community should have warranted a military strike to save people from this genocide, and free poor soles from the tyrant. If world doesn't care, South Koreans should do it alone to save their cousins.
On top of it NK live/survive stripped of human rights, freedoms and privacy, the common things we enjoy every day. They are treated worse than good farmer treats his animals.
They have the biggest forced labour camps on this planet, where the goal is not the work, but exhausting and killing "uncooperative" citizens. There might be as much as one in 10 of adult population in these camps. It is even hard to estimate how many people died in prisons or just were executed by the regime.
North Korea is one of the poorest countries in the world, but we know, they would do way better giving them a chance. South proved how well Koreans can live giving them better political and economic systems. (I know we can criticize South for many things, but let's not go into the irrelevant details now).

As I mentioned before, SK had a great chance to finish NK’s regime, and in my mind with relatively small casualties and very quickly. The time was right about 5 years ago, maybe 7. Here is why:
1. North Korean's biggest alley China, turned more pro west, and stopped caring about crazy NK’s regime much. NK became not important politically nor economically alley. I don’t think China would risk war with west for NK.
2. NK didn't have atom bomb yet.
2a. SK knew about NK’s enquiring technology to built the bomb for long time.
3. SK is many times stronger militarily with huge production capabilities, with way better technology in every aspect. NK wouldn't even know what hit them.
4. NK's army, though strong in numbers, has outdated military equipment which is falling apart from disrepair. There is constant shortage of fuel, and parts, so they wouldn't fight too long. Probably only 1 in 10 tanks and airplanes are battle ready.
5. NK's soldiers are hungry and with low moral. If SK strikes and gets inside North, most (if not all) army will surrender, like Iraqis during first desert war. Even faster, after all, their rich cousins came to liberate and feed them.
(Sorry for the digression, but I still can't forgive old Bush for not finishing Sadam back then, and betraying Iraqi people in the process.)
6. I’m sure the Kim Jong-Il would be captured by his own generals ready to switch sides, and either executed like Ceausescu, or giving away to the South. If Kim’s quick enough he would fly to China asking for asylum, or gets smuggled farther to Cuba.

Most likely the war wouldn’t last more than 2 days with very few casualties. Possibly fewer than is killed every day by the NK regime.
There is always a risk that crazy Kim would unleash rockets on SK cities just to punish them in ultimate desperation. On other hand SK should have enough technological superiority to destroy them before they got launched or mid air.

But……….the NK has the nukes now!
Now what?
SK missed the chance, and they have to sit quietly and suffer,……idiots. Should I mention again, that their cousins are dying from hunger, torture, humiliation and desperation, and crazy Kim can press nuke button at will?

Sirius2b
25-11-10, 15:54
Ah, @LeBrok... The thread you just posted is extremely interesting.

However, it is regretable that in this occasion, you and I think extreme opposite directions.

I will start by saying, that I do not hate South Koreans. As a matter of fact, near to where I live there is a "Daewoo" factory, and several of my neighbours are precisely South Koreans... and I have to say, they are the most nice and decent people that I ever met.

Now, I do not hate North Korea. I agree that they have a lifestyle and a regime that is very different.

Being different and not playing the game of the West, they are subject (don't doubt it) to continued aggression and bad press from the West. Some of this bad press is well earned, and another big part is not.

You say that South Korea "missed the opportunity" to "liberate" the North in the past. I don't know if you have knowledge of how well armed conventionally, were and are the North Koreans and how can they bomb Seoul, and in fact, all the 50 miles strip along the DMZ, were precisely aprox. 50% of the total population of South Korea lives.

Great vision indeed, had the North Korean Regime, in arming itself with nuclear weapons, lest they will be "liberated and democratisized" Iraq-style. And the "collateral damage" in the North Koran side, will probably deserve as little space in the western press as the 1,000,000 murdered Iraqis.

I hope Iran will also take note, and catch up.

The bad press about North Korea will remain the same. But its people will not be destituted and murdered so easily by "The Democracy"...

And some people, of course, lament that.

Finally, I post here some good music...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qGY1BvE-0g

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BnbUMjzyb7Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qXrbDJHkpjE

And some good cartoons...

YouTube - Squirrel and Hedgehog clips (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jARHUL00p4)
YouTube - North Korea Animation 5-1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mNR4kR1uC-w) ()
YouTube - North Korea Animation 5-2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oO6LvFLLKtY)

(I cannot wait to see another chapter of 다람이와 고슴도치 ) :D

Sirius2b
25-11-10, 16:39
Regarding to the claim that "North Korea is one of the most poor countries on Earth"... I would say that has to be looked at, with more detail.

For starters, the literacy in NK is 99+

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_North_Korea

... and somewhere I read, that the knowledge of Math of the average NK high school student was way higher than that of the US student, even greater than some western european countries.

You see photos of Pyongyang and you see that in general is a tidy city.

http://www.google.com.mx/images?hl=es&source=imghp&biw=1020&bih=567&q=Pyongyang&gbv=2&aq=f&aqi=g7&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=

Definitely, could not be compared with REAL poor countries in, say, Western Africa... but I think that a French have to know that.

Definitely not "one of the most poor countries in the world".

That is what I call "western Propaganda". :satisfied:

Regulus
26-11-10, 16:13
It would actually be an understatement to refer to North Korea as poor. There was a point before the 60s when the average income of NK was higher than that of a person in the south. Rapid industrialization put an end to that, and by the 80s the south was way, way ahead.
Pyongyang is of course their flagship city. They keep it clean, but cannot hide the empty streets and lack of anything that looks like bustle. Satellites at night clearly show the results of their need to turn off electricity to entire regions. They got by without collapsing when the USSR could help them by keeping them in their ecomonic orbit, but those days are long gone. They are poor beyond measure and lack money or credit to even buy enough food to keep their people from literally starving.

Attributing facts to "western propaganda" is kind of like saying that Americans were always really nice to Native Americans and that anything to the contrary is indigenous propaganda.

NewEngland
06-12-10, 09:23
Serius2b are you still in highschool? I sence a little nieve hostility from you toward the west, get at the back of a very long line son. NK doesnt have great vision and never has. If we hadnt gone there in the 50s all of Korea would be completely unprosperous and hopelessly miserable. There are some people in this world who shouldnt have WMDs, and if you say Iran should have them then maybe you think everybody ought to have them, that sounds like a real Utopia to me. You see the current nuke weilders have this thing called mutualy assured destruction, and some people just dont value there own life enough for my comfort level, so they shouldnt have any nukes. SK would never launch rockets into the north first, they understand and respect the destruction war brings. If war does break out all the blood will ultimately be on Chinas hands for not influencing or forcing the north to be peaceable. Unfortunately they obviously dont care.

Cambrius (The Red)
06-12-10, 19:12
North Korea is a schizophrenic state run a maniacal, criminal ruler, buttressed by an even more maniacal, criminal military.

How many millions have starved to death in that country in the last 20 years?

LeBrok
06-04-13, 05:39
Excellent journalism by Anderson Cooper about escape from camp 14.
When freedom equals broiled chicken...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wn3vROcSEa4

LeBrok
19-11-14, 01:50
Finally there is a resolution in UN to refer North Korea and their leaders to International Criminal Court for crimes against humanity. I wonder if Russia and China will veto this resolution. Perhaps they have realised by now how sick NK regime is and will want to wash off their hands and have nothing to do with them anymore.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/11/18/us-northkorea-un-rights-idUSKCN0J22EG20141118

Quietly I'm hoping that Kim Jong Un is gravely sick and his quick demise will introduce some dramatic events, like succession fight leading to more open minded and empathic leader.

EBlack
15-12-14, 07:39
It will be not good if someday they reunited. Just think about North Koreans, they will be like oppa gangam style.

LeBrok
24-04-17, 01:40
This says a lot:
https://i0.wp.com/astrobob.areavoices.com/files/2017/04/Light-pollution-Earth-map-VIRS-2016-Korea.jpg?ssl=1

IronSide
24-04-17, 09:01
This says a lot:
https://i0.wp.com/astrobob.areavoices.com/files/2017/04/Light-pollution-Earth-map-VIRS-2016-Korea.jpg?ssl=1

LOL, fishing boats have more lights than the entire north Korea, and who is that one guy in Pyongyang ? must be kim jong un, he alone can turn on the lights at night. The entire globe will have one hell of an epic party when kim and his family fall from power, and you've got to ask, where is the CIA ??? why are they so good at overthrowing democracies but not dictatorships, why can't we just bribe everyone around him, every colonel, lieutenant, general, captain, whatever the rank, we'll offer them paradise itself if they turned on him.

Coriolan
24-04-17, 10:09
I think that the US has let North Korea survive all these years because it wanted to make an example of a failed comunist regime. The contrast between the poor and deprived North and the prosperous US-backed South is striking. There couldn't be a better example of how the destiny of a people depends on adopting the right system, that is democratic capitalist system.

Yetos
24-04-17, 12:06
This says a lot:
https://i0.wp.com/astrobob.areavoices.com/files/2017/04/Light-pollution-Earth-map-VIRS-2016-Korea.jpg?ssl=1



Ha?
this photo can mean a lot, :thinking:
for example that N korea is respecting enviroment and does not spend energy so to polute the planet, :laughing:
or N Korea has no light polution, :innocent:
even N korea is respecting the seas and the fish population, so they do not overfishing
keeping sea creatures population at a healthy lvl :good_job:
so N korea manage to be ahead in subjects of autarky and self-sufficiency? oh boy how far they went? :shocked:
N Koreans are resting at night, S koreans work day and night !!!!!! :sad-2:
etc etc etc

for example I could give N korea grats for enviromental consious and sentiments :grin:
what do you think?

PS
just joking,

LeBrok
24-04-17, 18:53
Ha?
this photo can mean a lot, :thinking:
for example that N korea is respecting enviroment and does spend energy so to polute the planet, :laughing: Do you mean that polluted river would glow? ;) The worse polution in Poland happened during socialistic industralization from 60s to 80s.

or N Korea has no light polution, :innocent:


Unfortunately they don't have teleskops to enjoy start.
even N korea is respecting the seas and the fish population, so they do not overfishing
keeping sea creatures population at a healthy lvl :good_job:
so N korea manage to be ahead in subjects of autarky and self-sufficiency? oh boy how far they went? :shocked:
N Koreans are resting at night, S koreans work day and night !!!!!! :sad-2:
etc etc etc

for example I could give N korea grats for enviromental consious and sentiments :grin:
what do you think?

PS
just joking,You like it so much, maybe they will let you in? hehe

Yetos
24-04-17, 19:41
Do you mean that polluted river would glow? ;) The worse polution in Poland happened during socialistic industralization from 60s to 80s.


You like it so much, maybe they will let you in? hehe

well I am not going to defend a hereditary (κληρονομικη) tyrant.
but really don't you think that at Seoul have too much light?

LeBrok
24-04-17, 21:45
well I am not going to defend a hereditary (κληρονομικη) tyrant.Not many people would, but read first few posts, and you will find volunteers.

but really don't you think that at Seoul have too much light?I think half population of S.Korea lives there, that's why. Too many people in one place indeed.

last-resort
25-04-17, 18:50
well I am not going to defend a hereditary (κληρονομικη) tyrant.
but really don't you think that at Seoul have too much light? I'll mention both light and Kim family.

On the light pollution, many western countries, including the US, are replacing the old streets lamps with LED bulbs, which are longer lasting,and -ding-ding-ding - use less electricity/are less costly to operate. In the process, the new fixtures direct the light downward and there is less atmospheric light pollution. So the effort to save money allows for a better environment at no extra cost. I suppose that South Korea has not yet started its own efforts. (In the US, this is a local matter, not a federal on.)

EDIT here: In fairness to Kim, there is the possibility that the North Korean light bulbs have been converted to LED along with hyper-efficient uni-directional light fixtures so that little light escapes to the atmosphere. If so, then Kim should get an environmental award or prize. And a 'Bless his heart', from me. :heart:

On the Kim family, I cannot see why the crowd of men around him do not take him in the back and strangle his ass. The Soviet nomenclatura saw the light and figured out a way to transition to a semblance of democratic/representative government - at least for a while. China doesn't want a democracy, but would I suspect accept a collective leadership as it has. That should result in a more sane, stable leadership. The adage, 'follow the money,' no doubt applies. But at some point, enough should accept that Kim is holding them all back. I doubt that South Korea has a burning desire to take over the mess that is North Korea.

LABERIA
25-04-17, 19:55
This says a lot:
https://i0.wp.com/astrobob.areavoices.com/files/2017/04/Light-pollution-Earth-map-VIRS-2016-Korea.jpg?ssl=1

I see a light in Pyongyang. The Great Leader never sleep. He work hard, day and night.

Diomedes
25-04-17, 20:54
There should be no hatred towards brother nations (actually they are one nation, the same people). South Korea will have to give a lot in order to, somehow, bring the northern part at a state of balance, after the end of the regime.

Yetos
25-04-17, 20:57
well we all laugh,

BUT CONSIDER THIS

http://johnrieber.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/north-korean-traffic-police-no-cars.jpg


How many we must pay to N Korea for less CO2 per population? (carbon dioxide) and rest global warming gass.
at West CO2 production licenses are played and bought at stock exchange,
How much we must pay them,
look at the roads, and the traffic police girl

I think it is called carbon dioxide emissions in English

fantastic job, at a fantastic country, with a fantastic girl, and fantastic cars (well if you don't see them, imagine them :grin:)
don't you think? and the advertisement is fantastic, although I agree to stop advertisements, at roads, especially with those who light at nigth
what it is advertising? :laughing: ARMY offcourse

I love these girls when they march/parade, they are just like dancing at a ballet
watch them at 32:40 they are fantastic, but i hope my wife not to be excited and force me walk like this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrJrlIO7UH0

but I hate that on 7:18, a flag should never bend to any leader, never, never,

Diomedes
25-04-17, 21:07
Just see the difference between the two countries: luminosity data are a good proxy for the economic activity. The North has stayed in a hideous position, almost 70 years behind the South.

The role of America and the free-market system, has worked wonders for S. Korea, especially given that after the Korean war, S. Korea was so poor (it could be compared with some African countries). Indeed, a reversal of fortune.

bicicleur
25-04-17, 21:12
This says a lot:
https://i0.wp.com/astrobob.areavoices.com/files/2017/04/Light-pollution-Earth-map-VIRS-2016-Korea.jpg?ssl=1

a new misile being launched from Pyongyang, that is what I see

it reminds me when I visited Bucharest in 1995
Cheauchescu had built fountains on all the lanes leading to his new palace
but in order to have enough power to make the fountain pumps work, he had to cut of electricity from the whole quarter
I'll always remember how sad it looked

Angela
25-04-17, 22:42
Mix indoctrination and fear for not only yourself but your whole family, and you get close to an explanation. How long did Stalin rule? How many millions of Russians did he kill?

Even on their way to execution or rotting in gulags good Russian communists believed and thought they must have done something wrong. The testimonies from that era make for very sad reading.

Plus, what about all the apologists who refused to acknowledge what had gone on?

"
Some people confessed when police interrogators threatened family members. Others hoped that by cooperating they would save themselves. Many confessed under beatings and torture, at first an unofficial means of gaining a confession. In 1937, Stalin made torture the official and usual method of getting confessions. Stalin reportedly ordered the secret police to "beat, beat, and beat again."Many caught up in the mass arrests invented "crimes" so that they could confess to something. Many admitted guilt without even knowing the charges. However, some top Communist Party officials arrested on orders from Stalin confessed for quite another reason. These members of the old generation of revolutionaries came to power with Lenin in 1917 and had such faith in the party that they refused to believe it could ever be wrong. In Arthur Koestler (http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/koestler.htm)'s novel, Darkness at Noon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553265954/qid=1044557177/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0541312-6388024?v=glance&s=books),the main character named Rubashov is falsely accused of plotting the assassination of "No. 1"(Stalin). Rubashov finally "confesses" after declaring, "I will do everything which may serve the Party." In the novel, he willingly took a bullet in the head after becoming convinced that he must be guilty because the party said so."
http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-7-4-a-the-stalin-purges-and-show-trials

Apsurdistan
26-04-17, 02:02
lol you people are so brainwashed.

LeBrok
26-04-17, 03:45
I'll mention both light and Kim family.

On the light pollution, many western countries, including the US, are replacing the old streets lamps with LED bulbs, which are longer lasting,and -ding-ding-ding - use less electricity/are less costly to operate. In the process, the new fixtures direct the light downward and there is less atmospheric light pollution. So the effort to save money allows for a better environment at no extra cost. I suppose that South Korea has not yet started its own efforts. (In the US, this is a local matter, not a federal on.)

EDIT here: In fairness to Kim, there is the possibility that the North Korean light bulbs have been converted to LED along with hyper-efficient uni-directional light fixtures so that little light escapes to the atmosphere. If so, then Kim should get an environmental award or prize. And a 'Bless his heart', from me. :heart:Did you assume that if LED use electricity they produce also less light?

LeBrok
26-04-17, 03:50
Mix indoctrination and fear for not only yourself but your whole family, and you get close to an explanation. How long did Stalin rule? How many millions of Russians did he kill?

Even on their way to execution or rotting in gulags good Russian communists believed and thought they must have done something wrong. The testimonies from that era make for very sad reading.

Plus, what about all the apologists who refused to acknowledge what had gone on?

"
Some people confessed when police interrogators threatened family members. Others hoped that by cooperating they would save themselves. Many confessed under beatings and torture, at first an unofficial means of gaining a confession. In 1937, Stalin made torture the official and usual method of getting confessions. Stalin reportedly ordered the secret police to "beat, beat, and beat again."Many caught up in the mass arrests invented "crimes" so that they could confess to something. Many admitted guilt without even knowing the charges. However, some top Communist Party officials arrested on orders from Stalin confessed for quite another reason. These members of the old generation of revolutionaries came to power with Lenin in 1917 and had such faith in the party that they refused to believe it could ever be wrong. In Arthur Koestler (http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/koestler.htm)'s novel, Darkness at Noon (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553265954/qid=1044557177/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/002-0541312-6388024?v=glance&s=books),the main character named Rubashov is falsely accused of plotting the assassination of "No. 1"(Stalin). Rubashov finally "confesses" after declaring, "I will do everything which may serve the Party." In the novel, he willingly took a bullet in the head after becoming convinced that he must be guilty because the party said so."

http://www.crf-usa.org/bill-of-rights-in-action/bria-7-4-a-the-stalin-purges-and-show-trialsAs said as it is, it makes great psychology study.

LeBrok
26-04-17, 03:52
lol you people are so brainwashed.So why are you coming back here? Please go away and hide in the deepest crevices of your depressed Apsurdistan.

davef
26-04-17, 04:28
well we all laugh,

BUT CONSIDER THIS

http://johnrieber.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/north-korean-traffic-police-no-cars.jpg


How many we must pay to N Korea for less CO2 per population? (carbon dioxide) and rest global warming gass.
at West CO2 production licenses are played and bought at stock exchange,
How much we must pay them,
look at the roads, and the traffic police girl

I think it is called carbon dioxide emissions in English

fantastic job, at a fantastic country, with a fantastic girl, and fantastic cars (well if you don't see them, imagine them :grin:)
don't you think? and the advertisement is fantastic, although I agree to stop advertisements, at roads, especially with those who light at nigth
what it is advertising? :laughing: ARMY offcourse

I love these girls when they march/parade, they are just like dancing at a ballet
watch them at 32:40 they are fantastic, but i hope my wife not to be excited and force me walk like this.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrJrlIO7UH0

but I hate that on 7:18, a flag should never bend to any leader, never, never,

Off topic, but I think the policegirl directing traffic is pretty cute!

LeBrok
26-04-17, 04:37
Off topic, but I think the policegirl directing traffic is pretty cute!Same here, and looking at rush hour traffic she won't be tired.

davef
26-04-17, 04:40
Same here, and looking at rush hour traffic she won't be tired.

Yeah the first thing that popped into my male mind when I saw that photo was "oooh look at her" lol.

Diomedes
26-04-17, 07:23
Well, we have some experience of parades given that, most likely, you went to the Greek army.



I love these girls when they march/parade, they are just like dancing at a ballet
watch them at 32:40 they are fantastic, but i hope my wife not to be excited and force me walk like this.

last-resort
28-04-17, 15:54
Did you assume that if LED use electricity they produce also less light? No. I made that clear. With the LED lamps come new fixtures. These fixtures are more directional, so that less light 'leaks' to the atmosphere. The bigger point again is that with the cost-saving move of replacing old lamps with the LEDs, society gets more eco-friendly light distribution.

last-resort
28-04-17, 16:13
well we all laugh,

BUT CONSIDER THIS

How many we must pay to N Korea for less CO2 per population? (carbon dioxide) and rest global warming gass.
at West CO2 production licenses are played and bought at stock exchange,
How much we must pay them,
look at the roads,...

I think it is called carbon dioxide emissions in English

...
I love these girls when they march/parade, they are just like dancing at a ballet
...

...

but I hate that on 7:18, a flag should never bend to any leader, never, never, Having businesses pay for exceeding limits such as carbon dioxide is called in the US, cap and trade, a concept which might in fact be adopted. i think it is a form of zero sum game such that if you do noit use your limit, you can sell the excess to one who has exceeded their own. The overall limit isn't exceeded. I think that is how it works. If North korea played nice, yes, it might benefit from this and be able to feed a few more horses for the parade.

The parade is political theater in a literal sense. Of course the women are dancing. Probably easiest way for them to get through the ordeal of 'marching' like that.

Flags are routinely dipped as a form of salute. This is not unusual, and is not another indication of the subservient nature of Kim's rule.

As to Kim and psychology, humans are wondrous in their ability to fantasize and accept their own subservience to a person, ideal, concept, etc. We are a more dangerous species than most know. Stalin killed millions, hitler killed millions, Pol Pot killed millions, Mao killed millions. There is no end to it. Each (perhaps excepting Stalin, who used communism theory to assemble power) had a 'higher goal', that gullible subordinates accepted as the reason to kill.

Yetos
28-04-17, 20:45
Well, we have some experience of parades given that, most likely, you went to the Greek army.

yes offcourse,
and I parade infront President at Ioannina and also at Larissa and Chalkida (32 TAΞΠ/Ν)
but Greek parade is only 2 things
preparation about 5 days to learn the 'ou' every second left feet
and effort quide check, not to do it as αγγαρεια boring task a chore.
simplicity,
nothing better than other days, except liitle more synchronicity and up the hand.

offcourse I am not talking about presidential guard, the ευζωνοι,
they are tottaly different, they are trained for such slow torture, but again much more simple, and painfully slow.