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edao
19-12-10, 14:46
I recently watched a clip on youtube featuring one of Italy's prominent politicians Ignazio La Russa. I was appauled at the way he conducted himself in a debate that resorted to him engaging in a shouting match.

Later the presenter and another politician behave in a similar fashion.
I don't buy into the idea that it is ok to behave like that because it's a cultural thing. Humans cannot communicate effectively if people are shouting and becoming overly emotional.

Ignazio La Russa's wiki page here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignazio_La_Russa) appears to be an educated man, Italy has the 4th or 5th largest economy in Europe and are in the G8, how is it possible to run a developed economy with people who act like children?

my definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/immature) of immature:
emotionally undeveloped; juvenile; childish.

I would be interested to know what other think of their behaviour and whether it is common across europe, do politicains act like this in France and Germany. If any politicans behaved remotely like this in the UK they would have to resign their position within days.

The youtube video can be watched here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9rJgg3ZJzo).

^ lynx ^
19-12-10, 14:57
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TsAa9VmwOaI

I don't know if you have been living under a rock there in the UK but discussions in the british parlament are usually like this. And they seem to fit perfectly into your definition of immature.


:wavey:

Cambrius (The Red)
19-12-10, 18:22
I recently watched a clip on youtube featuring one of Italy's prominent politicians Ignazio La Russa. I was appauled at the way he conducted himself in a debate that resorted to him engaging in a shouting match.

Later the presenter and another politician behave in a similar fashion.
I don't buy into the idea that it is ok to behave like that because it's a cultural thing. Humans cannot communicate effectively if people are shouting and becoming overly emotional.

Ignazio La Russa's wiki page here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignazio_La_Russa) appears to be an educated man, Italy has the 4th or 5th largest economy in Europe and are in the G8, how is it possible to run a developed economy with people who act like children?

my definition (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/immature) of immature:
emotionally undeveloped; juvenile; childish.

I would be interested to know what other think of their behaviour and whether it is common across europe, do politicains act like this in France and Germany. If any politicans behaved remotely like this in the UK they would have to resign their position within days.

The youtube video can be watched here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n9rJgg3ZJzo).


One can't really label cultural differences in political exchanges as immature, at least not in Western Europe. I've seen shouting matches and worse in various U.S. and U.K. debates.

I will say one thing, the majority of Italian voters are terribly uninformed / misinformed, as they elected the great charlatan and court jester Berlusconi not once but twice.

edao
20-12-10, 00:59
I think it's fair to say perhaps standing outside looking in might skew someones perspective. Berlusconi is an 'interesting' character, there's a good BBC documentary about him here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=me5rrHB-o2s&feature=related). Well worth a watch.

Regulus
20-12-10, 17:02
I do think that immature may be a relatively applicable word. It boggles the mind at Berlesconi being elected not only after how he acts himself, but with what he says. He demeans women terribly. I understand that he was quoted as saying something to the effect that there were so many cases of rape in Italy because their women were so beautiful. How does one even answer that? The man is a chief executive of a major modern nation and we get that sort of remark about an horrific crime? Are we to assume that men are thought of as incapable of any control?

I also heard something to the effect of him saying that women should try to get a rich boyfriend. What exactly is going on here?

The guy seems to think that he can make comments like that, and the general reaction in the country seems to confirm that assumption.

Sirius2b
20-02-11, 19:55
In my opinion, one has to not to generalize to the whole culture, when one see that something is not well.

It is for example, to say that German culture is inherently barbaric and cruel, ponting to the goverment of Hitler from 1933 - 1945.

One has to contemplate, the historical evolution, and how the circumstances (treaty of Versailles, "Dolchstosslegende", antisemitism,... ) lead to that.

If we consider Italy as the craddle of civilization in Western Europe, we see that on the contrary, Italy cannot be an "immature culture" in the sense of being "juvenile".

The current goverment of Berlusconi is to an outside observer, a sore in the eye, and one cannot find an easy explanation that he has lasted that much.

The explanation has to be profound, and certainly I will not use it to gloat over it and rush to the explanation that "italian culture is immature".

Regards.

Reinaert
20-02-11, 21:27
Haha.. Berlusconi is an idiot, and there more idiots that follow him.

Facism still lingers on in Italy. Why? Berlusconi has a massive influence on the media. He owns most of the media! That's why Italy can never be a true democracy, like most countries in the western hemisphere. When there is no free press and media.. Forget about democracy.

And the internet is also victim of fascist attacks.
Just look at what some members of this forum post.

edao
21-02-11, 03:09
With the current scandal (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12508671)Berlusconi has wrapped himself up in, it doesn't reflect well on Italy as a nation that a man so marred in corruption and out right criminal activity could win 2 elections and be infact the longest serving PM since the war.

News articles talk of how little the scandal has effected his pole ratings. I mean it's no secret that he is trying desperatly to re-write Italian law to make sure he cannot be prosecuted. Can this kind of blatent criminal acivity be legal within the EU? Surely at some point the European High Court would have to step in and make the point that Italy is no longer a free democracy.

Italians should be ashamed:ashamed2: of themselves to have allowed this crook to take power and believe what ever Bull***t he spouts. What kind of country has such a low moral standing that they are happy for their leader to have sex parties with hookers half his age. If that is acceptable for Italian society I'd be quite glad to see them booted out of the EU.

Regulus
21-02-11, 16:18
With the current scandal (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12508671)Berlusconi has wrapped himself up in, it doesn't reflect well on Italy as a nation that a man so marred in corruption and out right criminal activity could win 2 elections and be infact the longest serving PM since the war.

News articles talk of how little the scandal has effected his pole ratings. I mean it's no secret that he is trying desperatly to re-write Italian law to make sure he cannot be prosecuted. Can this kind of blatent criminal acivity be legal within the EU? Surely at some point the European High Court would have to step in and make the point that Italy is no longer a free democracy.

Italians should be ashamed:ashamed2: of themselves to have allowed this crook to take power and believe what ever Bull***t he spouts. What kind of country has such a low moral standing that they are happy for their leader to have sex parties with hookers half his age. If that is acceptable for Italian society I'd be quite glad to see them booted out of the EU.

Agreed.

The comments attributed to him annoy me even more greatly.
He apparently says that the high rates of sexual assaults in his country has something to do with the fact that Italian women are so beautiful.
Apparently, males cannot control themselves when they are in the presence of an attractive woman - a filthy suggestion.

He also supposedly advised young women not to work or study hard, but to find a rich boyfriend.

The man is a disgrace.

Sybilla
21-02-11, 17:06
Actually we Italians are asking for new votation and are trying to kick Berlusconi out and put them in a trial. But it is not easy. He has contacts also with mafia, owns medias, etc.
As for women, Italian women demonstrated against Berlusconi 2 weeks ago and the estimated number is superior to 1 million women.

Vallicanus
22-02-11, 11:08
Italian culture is very superficial and image-obsessed. The North is worse than the South in this respect.

Italy has done little or nothing with the Mafia or endemic corruption but is worried because other countries are laughing at Berlusconi.

Sybilla
22-02-11, 16:28
Italian culture is very superficial and image-obsessed. The North is worse than the South in this respect.

Italy has done little or nothing with the Mafia or endemic corruption but is worried because other countries are laughing at Berlusconi.

If Italians were really image-obsessed as you said, a character like Berlusconi could not exist becouse he would be ashame to present himself as chief of government. I think you are pretty ignorant about Italian culture however.

Starship
22-02-11, 18:03
I think the Italian people, the food, wine and weather is fabulous, and they certainly don't have a monopoly on crap politicians.

Vallicanus
22-02-11, 21:17
If Italians were really image-obsessed as you said, a character like Berlusconi could not exist becouse he would be ashame to present himself as chief of government. I think you are pretty ignorant about Italian culture however.

He is the proof of Italian superficiality.

Much of his initial popularity was due to his laughable TV channels and control of the media.

Vallicanus
22-02-11, 21:22
He has been leader on and off since 1994 and his political record is one of economic decline, massive immigration, endemic political corruption, declining universities, emigration of scientific talent and massive youth unemployment or employment on short-term contracts.

Sybilla
23-02-11, 00:23
He is the proof of Italian superficiality.

Much of his initial popularity was due to his laughable TV channels and control of the media.

He has been leader on and off since 1994 and his political record is one of economic decline, massive immigration, endemic political corruption, declining universities, emigration of scientific talent and massive youth unemployment or employment on short-term contracts.

What surprises me is that you speak bad of Italians but still use a Latin nickname. Are you a troll? :laughing:
I don't support Berlusconi and have never voted for him, like many my countrymen. I don't justify him but you can't apply to Italy the same parametres that you apply to other countries, becouse:

1) Italy is in the centre of Mediterraneum, Lybia is a former Italian colony and Italy is forced to have contacts with it due to geographical, economical and historical reasons.

2) Italy has not primarian goods like gas and petroil, we have to import them from Russia and Lybia by two gaspipes, one of them crosses Ukraine, the other starts in Lybia. As Ukraine is politically very unstable Italy choosed to purchase gas also from Lybia, becouse if in Ukraine situation goes bad and they close the gaspipe we still have open that from Lybia and vice versa. Indeed the first thing our economists have choosed after these protests in Lybia as been to close the gaspipe from Lybia.

3) Berlusconi's Italy made an anti-clandestine immigration policy. Italy has stopped and sent back to Africa many ships. The problem is: people who are coming here are really disperate. Italians are very worried by the large number of clandestines who are coming, on the other hand we think that it's very inhuman to send them back in a country whose leader shots on people.

4) What is the EU doing to help us in this very difficult moment? Nothing! But where will these immigrants go when they'll realize that Italy can't give work and opportunities to them all becouse we are already full? Italy is full, 60 million people are too much. They will move to the other Euro countries, so this problem concerns also you who are ignoring the situation.

5) Women have protested in Italy against Mr Berlusconi's behavour towards women. He will go on trial and just today the opposition has asked to put on trial also Berlusconi's bunga-bunga friends (i.e. Emilio Fede and Lele Mora).

I don't see what else we could be. Now I'd be glad if you answer with a sensible answer, instead that with these childish accuses.

Politicians behavour in Italy easily becomes very low in debates, I agree. But we are facing harsh problems these days and the country is divided in two, but we are also united in having some perplexities about the protests in Africa and their consequences.

But if we come to immigration, Italy has not more hordes of immigrants than other countries. The UK, Germany, France and Spain have an higher rate or immigration, for exemple.

Vallicanus
23-02-11, 19:22
Italy has an 8 per cent official rate of foreigners plus an unknown but very significant and growing number of illegals living on the margins of society.

I have been in Pisa, Florence, Rome, Bergamo, Livorno, Venice etc in recent years so I have seen the situation with my own eyes.

Italy is a country obsessed with superficialities and "bella figura" and I have not written anything that has not been written or said before about Italian society.

Italy has had big problems of corruption, unemployment and under-employment, chaotic universities and a general aversion to organised living long before the recent troubles in North Africa.

I think I have a right to comment on the deplorable state of Italy after 150 years of unity as both my parents are Italian.:thinking:

binx
23-02-11, 21:28
I think I have a right to comment on the deplorable state of Italy after 150 years of unity as both my parents are Italian.:thinking:

Now i understand the reason why your point of view about Italy is so superficial, you are of italian heritage. ;-)

Just joking.

I have many italian friends and all my italian friends hate Berlusconi.

Anton, Bear's den
24-02-11, 16:38
Good that Berlusconi is not gay xD

Sybilla
24-02-11, 17:03
Now i understand the reason why your point of view about Italy is so superficial, you are of italian heritage. ;-)

Just joking.

I have many italian friends and all my italian friends hate Berlusconi.

I hate him too. I dunno how he wins the elections, but I have some ideas...

julia90
25-02-11, 02:31
You may perceve us like that but belive me, the thing is that italians are very polemic, argumentative, on everything.
That's the way we threat things; we need do discuss fiercely.
Expecially in politics.

binx
25-02-11, 03:08
italians are very polemic, argumentative, on everything.
That's the way we threat things; we need do discuss fiercely.
Expecially in politics.

I guess that's a faithful portrait of Tuscan people, but not all Italians are Tuscan. ;-)

Tuscan are more similar to French people, than any others in Italy. Arrogant, rude, superb, polemic, argumentative and proud like us. :good_job:

I knew that Berlusconi and his private party has never won elections in Tuscany during in his long political career. That's simply awesome, something to be eternally proud of. Is it still right?