PDA

View Full Version : New map of haplogroup J2 (Y-DNA)



Maciamo
21-12-10, 23:13
I was fed up to constantly see badly mistaken distribution maps of haplogroup J2 (the latest in date being from the Thangaraj et al. study (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from.html)), so I decided to make my own, perusing all the data for each region of Europe and the Middle East with scrupulous attention.

There were often very conflicting studies, so I had to compromise and use common sense. For example, one study found only 3% of J2 in Corsica while another claimed it to be as high as 21%.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

how yes no 2
22-12-10, 00:01
thanks Maciamo! this is very interesting map that tells lot of stories about history...

btw. can you stress for which areas is data solid and for which is interpolation...

e.g. Liburnia - is there data that shows lack of it there? I was expecting exactly the opposite - a hotspot... was there any sampling there?

Wilhelm
22-12-10, 00:06
Catalonia has only about 3% of J2, not in the range of 5-10 %

Maciamo
22-12-10, 08:40
thanks Maciamo! this is very interesting map that tells lot of stories about history...

btw. can you stress for which areas is data solid and for which is interpolation...

e.g. Liburnia - is there data that shows lack of it there? I was expecting exactly the opposite - a hotspot... was there any sampling there?

Don't worry, I checked it already. Percici et al. (http://www.cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100752.pdf), who made the most detailed study of Croatian Y-DNA and mtDNA to date, found between 2.3 and 3.5% of J2 in the Liburnian islands of Brac, Hvar and Korcula. Only Krk (Veglia in Italian), closer to Venice, had 11%, but not the Croatian mainland opposite (1.9%).

Maciamo
22-12-10, 08:49
Catalonia has only about 3% of J2, not in the range of 5-10 %

Semino et al. (2004) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181965/) found 6%, Adams et al. (2008) (http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2808%2900592-2) also 6%. Flores et al. (2004) found 0%, but their sample for Catalonia was a useless 16 individuals.

how yes no 2
22-12-10, 08:52
Don't worry, I checked it already. Percici et al. (http://www.cmj.hr/2005/46/4/16100752.pdf), who made the most detailed study of Croatian Y-DNA and mtDNA to date, found between 2.3 and 3.5% of J2 in the Liburnian islands of Brac, Hvar and Korcula. Only Krk, closer to Venice, had 11%, but not the Croatian mainland opposite (1.9%).

be careful there: Croatian mainland is a mix that include area as far as Zagorje (north from Zagreb), Osijek (east Slavonia close to border with Serbia), and Dubrovnik (very far south close to Montenegro)..those areas are genetically extremely diverse... R1a being strong in north and scarce in south, R1b strong in west and scarce in east, I2a2 scarce in northwest of Croatia and extreme in south Dalmatia....

J2 did spread along sea coasts mostly... my guess that in area of Liburnia it is around 11% as Island of Krk is close to mainland area of Liburnia...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Liburnia_5th_BC.png/483px-Liburnia_5th_BC.png

Brac, Hvar and Korcula are on the map of Liburia south most islands, very far from Liburnia mainland.... I do not think they can be used to extrapolate values for whole Liburnia because those 3 islands are quite separated from the rest of Liburnia and for instance have I2a2 around 55% while island of Krk on north of Liburnia has 9.5% I2a2 (and 17.8% of other I haplogroups, likely I1)

besides, area that looks as a hole is exactly the settlement of Croats according to http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/700/entity_1523.html
which further complicates interpretation of the supposed hole in J2 spread... because that area was not sampled at all... all mainland samples are taken further away from it...

I have even heard discussion that J2 might have been main marker of Liburnians before Croats settled the area

also if you look at variance for J2, it is pretty high along sea coast in area of Liburnia, and in general has increased values along sea coasts which indicates that J2 initially spread along sea coasts...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/images/ejhg2008249f4.jpg

Maciamo
22-12-10, 08:59
be careful there: Croatian mainland is a mix that include area as far as Zagorje (north from Zagreb), Osijek (east Slavonia close to border with Serbia), and Dubrovnik (very far south close to Montenegro)
J2 did spread along sea coasts mostly... my guess that in area of Liburnia it is around 11% as Island of Krk is close to mainland area of Liburnia...
Brac, Hvar and Korcula are on the map of Liburia south most islands, very far from Liburnia mainland.... I do not think they can be used to extrapolate values for whole Liburnia because those 3 islands are quite separated from the rest of Liburnia and for instance has I2a2 around 55% while island of Krk on north of Liburnia has 9.5% I2a2
besides, area that looks as a hole is exactly the settlement of Croats according to http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/700/entity_1523.html
which further complicates interpretation of the supposed hole in J2 spread...
I have even heard discussion that J2 might have been main marker of Liburnians before Croats settled the area
also if you look at variance for J2, it is pretty high along sea coast in area of Liburnia


You are just extrapolating. I need proof, and all the evidence I have show that the average for Slovenia and Croatia is around 2.5% of J2, and Bosnia-Herzegovina around 6%. You can't just guess that some haplogroup must have spread because this or that area was colonised by this or that people.

The last map you posted (for J2b2) show level under 5% for Liburnia. Variance isn't the same as frequency. What's your point ? Do you even know what you are posting ?

how yes no 2
22-12-10, 09:15
You are just extrapolating. I need proof, and all the evidence I have show that the average for Slovenia and Croatia is around 2.5% of J2, and Bosnia-Herzegovina around 6%. You can't just guess that some haplogroup must have spread because this or that area was colonised by this or that people.

The last map you posted (for J2b2) show level under 5% for Liburnia. Variance isn't the same as frequency. What's your point ? Do you even know what you are posting ?

I am only saying that there is not enough data for exact area that you have drawn as a hole in J2 spread, as there was no sampling in that area... look at Figure 2 of work Pericic to see exact locations of sampling... none of them falls in the area that you see as a hole in J2... and whole Croatia is genetically extremely diverse area (compare Figure 4 with Figure 2), which makes any guessing relatively hard... in fact, I would put question mark on complete mainland testing of Croatia presented in that work as it is in total 108 people on wide area that shows extremely diverse genetic landscape...

there is absolutely no reason why this area would follow the spread of south most islands Krk, Hvar and Brac, and not the spread of north most one - Krk...

high variance suggest that early inhabitants were strong in J2 marker... and old inhabitants of the area are Liburnians... so I would expect higher frequencies of J2 along the coastline and on islands.. and in mainland part of what you draw as hole were also Iapodes.. again because no samples were taken from area we have no clue what were genetic markers of Iapodes

closest sampling point to the area is Delnice...
but again Delnice are not representative of old settlement...
according to http://hr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delnice
due to lot of forest and no roads area was settled only in late 13th century, first by cakavian speaking people..than area of Delnice was depopulated due to Turkish conquests, and in 17th century Delnice was populated by Kaikavian speaking people from areas that are now in Slovenia... this makes any data from Delnice likely outlier in wider surroundings south of it

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c4/Croatian_dialects.PNG

btw. I just noticed, chakavian dialect of Croatian (in fact difference between chakavian, kaikavian and stokavian dialects of Croatia are more like the ones you see in different languages) correlates fairly well with Liburnians and Histri and not with Dalmatae

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/60/Liburnia_5th_BC.png/483px-Liburnia_5th_BC.png

how yes no 2
22-12-10, 11:21
Maciamo, it is clear to me that when trying to make map one often needs to interpolate values, as not all areas are really sampled... however, clues that one takes into account when interpolating might be sometimes misleading...

so, I was wondering if it is possible that areas that are not really sampled are in your maps covered with some pattern e.g. stripes , or xxx

in attempts to interpret the maps, such markings would help in avoiding to take assumptions for granted

btw.

You are just extrapolating. I need proof, and all the evidence I have show that the average for Slovenia and Croatia is around 2.5% of J2, and Bosnia-Herzegovina around 6%. You can't just guess that some haplogroup must have spread because this or that area was colonised by this or that people.

if average for Slovenia is around 2.5% why is on your map the area of Slovenia mostly in zone 10-15%?
also for Bosnia it is not flat 6% as in Bosnian Croats (west part of Herzegovina) it is around 1%, while in Serbs and Muslims it is larger than 6% (around 13% for Muslims, around 9% for Serbs, note that Serb samples come mostly from north areas of Bosnia, so Serb populated east Herzegovina might still be low in J2 )
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00190.x/pdf

also
_____________Serbia___Montenegro

J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

thus,

J2a + J2b________5% _____9.2%

while on your map large part of Serbia is in 10-15% area, and large part of Montenegro is in 20-30% area

Maciamo
22-12-10, 13:23
also for Bosnia it is not flat 6% as in Bosnian Croats (west part of Herzegovina) it is around 1%, while in Serbs and Muslims it is larger than 6% (around 13% for Muslims, around 9% for Serbs, note that Serb samples come mostly from north areas of Bosnia, so Serb populated east Herzegovina might still be low in J2 )


Regarding Bosnia, I am not going to draw dots and enclaves by ethnic and religious groups. That's impossible. That's why I have made an average. But it's true that the Bosnian Croats have less J2, so I have extended a bit the 1-5% zone towards western Bosnia.

I am aware that the map isn't perfect, but it cannot be without having detailed studies of every nook and cranny of every country.

how yes no 2
22-12-10, 13:46
I am aware that the map isn't perfect, but it cannot be without having detailed studies of every nook and cranny of every country.
ok, I think it is significantly improved with changes for Serbia, Montenegro, and extending the hole somewhat towards Slovenia...

I am doubtful about west Bosnia as that is part inhabited with Serbs and Muslims while Croats are more south of it..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/DemoBIH2006a.png/300px-DemoBIH2006a.png

But anyway, in general I am satisfied with corrections...

I do expect that future sampling will show more J2 in narrow area along north part of Croatian Adriatic coast and on north-central islands...

my general impression is that J2 spread along sea coasts, and that people with strong (not necessarily dominant) J2 were thus very sea related people (Phoenicians, Illyrians, Crete, some of Greek tribes, some Italic tribes, Etruscans, Veneti, and I think Liburnians as well..).... and variance of J2 seems to indicate that as well...

Wilhelm
22-12-10, 21:43
Semino et al. (2004) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181965/) found 6%, Adams et al. (2008) (http://www.cell.com/AJHG/abstract/S0002-9297%2808%2900592-2) also 6%. Flores et al. (2004) found 0%, but their sample for Catalonia was a useless 16 individuals.
The semino and Flores samples are also ridiculous. How about 193 catalans :

http://iberianroots.com/statistics/iberian_peninsula.html

R.Rocca
02-01-11, 04:58
Maciamo, excellent map. May I point out that the higher J2 percentages in Italy seem to mirror the areas of the Italic tribes, including the Romans, Brutti, Siculi, and the north-eastern Veneti. Also, the Romans claimed to be descendants of Troy - another high % area on your map.

Semitic Duwa
04-01-11, 12:22
When is the J1 map coming?:grin:

Maciamo
04-01-11, 16:38
When is the J1 map coming? :D

A European map of J1 won't be possible due to its low frequency in every country besides Italy and Greece. What's more, typical country-wide studies show less than 1% of J1, but detailed studies at the provincial level often show minor "hotspots" in some well defined areas. For example, in the Brabant DNA Project (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26032) for Belgium, most provinces had 0% of J1, but the Flemish Brabant province (Brussels and surrounding) had 3%.

Semitic Duwa
04-01-11, 17:03
A European map of J1 won't be possible due to its low frequency in every country besides Italy and Greece. What's more, typical country-wide studies show less than 1% of J1, but detailed studies at the provincial level often show minor "hotspots" in some well defined areas. For example, in the Brabant DNA Project (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26032) for Belgium, most provinces had 0% of J1, but the Flemish Brabant province (Brussels and surrounding) had 3%.

That is to say, M35 isn't that populous in Europe either (except in the Balkans with the V13 clade, but nvm).

Maciamo
05-01-11, 19:29
That is to say, M35 isn't that populous in Europe either (except in the Balkans with the V13 clade, but nvm).

E-M35 reaches level of 5 to 10% in most of continental Europe, and between 10 and 30% in West Iberia, Italy, Greece and the Balkans. There is no comparison with J1. The frequency of J1 in Europe is more comparable to E1b1b1c (E-M123) or T. In fact it is entirely possible that these three haplogroups are related (all probably migrated from the southern Levant to Europe, in all likelihood in a larger group dominated by E-M78 and J2 individuals).

MarTyro
03-10-11, 13:37
I would like to know if the last J2-map update was in Dec. 2010?

Goga
02-11-11, 22:25
I was fed up to constantly see badly mistaken distribution maps of haplogroup J2 (the latest in date being from the Thangaraj et al. study (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/12/y-chromosomes-and-mtdna-from.html)), so I decided to make my own, perusing all the data for each region of Europe and the Middle East with scrupulous attention.
Hi Maciamo,

According to you and your legend is J2a Greco-Anatolian, Mesopotamian and Caucasian.

http://img841.imageshack.us/img841/3359/j2ai.jpg

But you forgot the most important ethnic group that also belongs to this haplogroup! Iranic folks! You can find J2a in all Iranic peoples, from Kurdistan to Tajikistan. So according to me J2a is also an Iranic marker!

J2 is actually the most common haplogroup among all Iranic folks all over the world! Doesn't matter where they live, in the Mesopotamia or Central Asia..

LeBrok
06-04-12, 09:09
I'd say, J2 was highly agriculturalist. Their epicenter was and is in Fertile Crescent, spreading nicely and continuously in southern and western Europe, with diminishing in Carpathian Mountains and other mountainous areas.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

Their crops, early wheats where not as advanced as today's varieties, so it is logical that J2 spread was limited in northern Europe where climate was vastly different than the area of their inception. Plus North was already populated by successful herders of R1a haplogroup, the steep competition.
J2 is the richest in Greece and Italy. This might mean that well off agricultural societies were behind the engine of first strong city-states and consequently the first European empires of Greece/Macedonia, and Romans. Eventually they also became sea going people, but it was more around Bronze Age and later.
I have a feeling that J2 was most numerous of all haplogroups in southern Europe in mid Neolithic till the arrival of IE.
J2 also matches the borders of Roman Empire. Obviously RE helped J2 flow within it's borders, but I think it didn't do much difference. The truth might be that RE conqured these areas with rich populous farming communities (already with a lot of J2) and wasn't much interesting in more spares, poorer and wiled north.

Summarizing:
1. First farmers in Europe
2. No other HG matches spread of early farming that well.
3. Rich agricultural engine behind Greece and Rome
4. Most populous among HG in mid Neolithic till IE R1b arrival, and declining since Bronze Age (percentile wise)
5. J2 in Northern Europe might be more Jewish than early farmers.

Alexandros
23-02-13, 16:30
Anyone has an idea whether the J2 in Cyprus is primarily J2a or J2b?

gashi91
25-02-13, 02:18
For those of you whom are Albanian and have done their DNA test on FTDNA:
Join the Albanian DNA Project -- > http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Abanian_DNA_Poject/

Yaan
09-03-13, 18:19
Anyone has an idea whether the J2 in Cyprus is primarily J2a or J2b?
J2a, in all of Greece J2a is more than J2b :)

AdeoF
09-03-13, 18:36
There's a lot of J2 in Italy 0_0

MOESAN
18-03-13, 23:30
Don't forget Y-G2a for agriculture (but their more mountainous distributions could be explained by A) a firts demic wave) B) an economy more centered on caprins/ovins breeding? it seems that G2 was very strong among and 'danubians' and "seafarers peasants" - and Y-J2 is geographically roughly divided in J2a and J2b: J2b seems denser in Balkans, North to Greece, and less strong in other S-E european regions - I think it's J2b that is linked to agriculture as a wave older than the J82a wave (but I lack reliable and numerous data, as a lot of us here) - J2a could more lonked to Bronze and Iron Ages, I bet, lacking more confidence...

RHAS
31-08-13, 17:29
Haplogroup J2 M172 & Expansion Map of the Roman Empire.
https://sphotos-a-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/1150305_591299907594835_72728669_n.jpg
Haplogroup J2 M172 - Roman Republic.
https://sphotos-b-ams.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/1236259_591804834211009_98755787_n.jpg

LeBrok
17-05-14, 05:50
Please help ? J2 is semitic/arabic? people who have j2 haplogroup can they have blond blue eye/colored eyes?

Ancient Anatolians have J2 haplogroup?

Burt Bacharach have j2 dna he look white :)
First read this:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#history

leperrine
15-03-17, 20:01
Please help ? J2 is semitic/arabic? people who have j2 haplogroup can they have blond blue eye/colored eyes?

Ancient Anatolians have J2 haplogroup?

Burt Bacharach have j2 dna he look white :)

My brother and I are both J2. I have green eyes and he has blue eyes. Our Paternal ancestry is French from Norman stock.

Yaan
01-10-17, 09:33
Off course they can have it and lots of them do:) Do not put that much into connection between Y Haplogroup and looks :)

I know tested people and often the most blond and light eyed are E-V13 and J2 :)

Yaan
01-10-17, 09:34
Also a Haplogroup could not be Semitic of Arabic, these are languages :)

Yaan
01-10-17, 09:39
Maciamo could you maybe made e separation between J2a and J2b in the Charts or you think it would not be necessary since the lines share the J2 mutations and are too close? So J2a and J2b are like R1a-Z280 and R1a-Z93 so to say, different but yet both R1a?

Fatherland
06-10-17, 22:53
Maciamo could you maybe made e separation between J2a and J2b in the Charts or you think it would not be necessary since the lines share the J2 mutations and are too close? So J2a and J2b are like R1a-Z280 and R1a-Z93 so to say, different but yet both R1a?
J2a to J2b is like R1a to R1b. This makes the most sense in my opinion.

Yaan
08-10-17, 08:34
J2a to J2b is like R1a to R1b. This makes the most sense in my opinion.

But if it was like this there would have been no J2,just J2a and J2b, so both J2a and J2b are just part of J2, while R1a an d R1b are different, almost nobody talks about R1 and here there is not frequency for R1 but R1a and R1b :)

Fatherland
15-10-17, 14:32
But if it was like this there would have been no J2,just J2a and J2b, so both J2a and J2b are just part of J2, while R1a an d R1b are different, almost nobody talks about R1 and here there is not frequency for R1 but R1a and R1b :)
It is exactly how I wrote it. The clades have similar ages too, you should stop doubting.

Noone is "simply J2" or "simply J1". If they are of unknown clade, they will have an asterix sign next to it: *

Yaan
15-10-17, 18:41
It is exactly how I wrote it. The clades have similar ages too, you should stop doubting.

Noone is "simply J2" or "simply J1". If they are of unknown clade, they will have an asterix sign next to it: *

R1a and R1b are different lines, while J2a and J2b are different sublines of the same line, all J2b people are also J2 so are all J2a people :)

Angela
15-10-17, 18:50
R1a and R1b are different lines, while J2a and J2b are different sublines of the same line, all J2b people are also J2 so are all J2a people :)

And all R1a and R1b are sublines of R1. And R1 and R2 are sublines of R.

Dibran
15-10-17, 18:50
R1a and R1b are different lines, while J2a and J2b are different sublines of the same line, all J2b people are also J2 so are all J2a people :)

I think you're missing the point. You're dead wrong. R1a and R1b are also different sublines of the same R1 line. All R1a people are also R1, so are R1b people. There father is R1 much the same as J2 is the father of J2a and J2b. Use common sense.

Angela
15-10-17, 18:51
We cross posted, Dibran. :)

Exactly so.

Dibran
15-10-17, 18:52
We cross posted, Dibran. :)

Hahah. Indeed we did :)

Daggo
16-10-17, 02:13
Being of 100% North-western European (Saxon/Dutch, possibly British, along with Danish) stock, the fact that my haplogroup is so uncommon that far north intrigues me. I expected to be R1a or b, not like J2.

Fatherland
16-10-17, 18:44
R1a and R1b are different lines, while J2a and J2b are different sublines of the same line, all J2b people are also J2 so are all J2a people :)
You're getting owned here by 3 posters.

Yaan
16-10-17, 19:02
You're getting owned here by 3 posters.


No basically all 3 of them disagreed with the ideas of Maciamo( and all Geneticists) and insulted his work, apparently these people know nothing about Genetics.

I wonder if Maciamo will ban them for making fun with his ideas. I personally agree with him on J2 , and learn once and for all this is not TA and nobody cares about Albanian or Croat nationalism or any kind of nationalism here, so guys how do you fell being owned by me ;)

Yaan
16-10-17, 19:07
Being of 100% North-western European (Saxon/Dutch, possibly British, along with Danish) stock, the fact that my haplogroup is so uncommon that far north intrigues me. I expected to be R1a or b, not like J2.

A lot of North West Europeans are J2, some clades of J2a coming from Roman or Jewish or Celtic people , some J2b2 clades coming from a lot of sources, you guys here need to learn that your direct male line is not what defines who you are :) Maybe 80% of the man in your family from the down of time are R1b , but the rest could be everything , it changes nothing and it means nothing in terms of self identification :)

Congrats on your cool and not common in your part of the world male line :)

There is J2 from early middle ages ( 1 a and 1 b I think) from The Netherlands :) Here some guys said that the people were Avar mercenaries or something, but it could come from a lot of sources in NL :)

Angela
16-10-17, 19:22
No basically all 3 of them disagreed with the ideas of Maciamo( and all Geneticists) and insulted his work, apparently these people know nothing about Genetics.

I wonder if Maciamo will ban them for making fun with his ideas. I personally agree with him on J2 , and learn once and for all this is not TA and nobody cares about Albanian or Croat nationalism or any kind of nationalism here, so guys how do you fell being owned by me ;)

You obviously don't understand what you read no matter who writes it.

Yetos
16-10-17, 19:22
Being of 100% North-western European (Saxon/Dutch, possibly British, along with Danish) stock, the fact that my haplogroup is so uncommon that far north intrigues me. I expected to be R1a or b, not like J2.


I am not sure,
but I think they found j2b in Netherlands in Roman tombs

Yaan
16-10-17, 19:37
You obviously don't understand what you read no matter who writes it.



J2a and J2b are both just part of the line J2, while R1a and R1b are different lines, look at the map here, why do you not agree with me, Maciamo and all Genetics, please do elaborate :)

Yaan
16-10-17, 19:38
I am not sure,
but I think they found j2b in Netherlands in Roman tombs

Yes and also J2a I think :) They were most likely mercenaries :)

Angela
16-10-17, 20:01
You obviously lack the knowledge, but maybe one day you will learn :) I wish you luck :)

J2a and J2b are both just part of the line J2, while R1a and R1b are different lines, look at the map here, why do you not agree with me, Maciamo and all Genetics, please do elaborate :)

What don't you comprehend here? Y phylogenies bifurcate all along the line.

Yes, J2a and J2b are both "sublines" of J2.

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/phylogenetic_trees_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#J2

And J1 and J2 are both sublines of J.
"http://www.jogg.info/pages/51/files/Logan3_files/image006.jpg

R1a and R1b don't have any special status. They are sublines of R1, and R1 and R2 are sublines of R.
"

M207 (R) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup#Tree_view)


M173 (R1) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1)


M420 (R1a) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a)


M459
(R1a1) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a1)






(R1a*)











M343 (R1b) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b)


L278
(R1b1) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_R1b1&action=edit&redlink=1)






(R1b*)

















M479 (R2) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R2)


M124 (R2a) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R2a)


L263
(R2a1) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_R2a1&action=edit&redlink=1)





F1092
(R2a2) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_R2a2&action=edit&redlink=1)





Y12100
(R2a3) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_R2a3&action=edit&redlink=1)












(R2*)









"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)


Phylogeny of the y male chromosome:
https://images.nature.com/full/nature-assets/nrg/journal/v4/n8/images/nrg1124-f3.gif

Do you see the branching all along the line? Get it?

If you want to say that R1b and R1a split before J2a and J2b split then look up the dates and compare, not that I see what that would prove, because in any case it's thousands of years ago.

Before posting further please pick up and read some introductory material on the y chromosome.

Yaan
16-10-17, 20:06
What don't you comprehend here? Y phylogenies bifurcate all along the line.

Yes, J2a and J2b are both "sublines" of J2a.

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/phylogenetic_trees_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#J2

And J1 and J2 are both sublines of J.
"http://www.jogg.info/pages/51/files/Logan3_files/image006.jpg

Likewise, R1a and R1b are sublines of R1, and R1 and R2 are sublines of R.
"

M207 (R) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Y-chromosome_DNA_haplogroup#Tree_view)


M173 (R1) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1)


M420 (R1a) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a)


M459
(R1a1) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a1)






(R1a*)











M343 (R1b) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b)


L278
(R1b1) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_R1b1&action=edit&redlink=1)






(R1b*)

















M479 (R2) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R2)


M124 (R2a) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R2a)


L263
(R2a1) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_R2a1&action=edit&redlink=1)





F1092
(R2a2) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_R2a2&action=edit&redlink=1)





Y12100
(R2a3) (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_R2a3&action=edit&redlink=1)












(R2*)









"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)

Phylogeny of the y male chromosome:
https://images.nature.com/full/nature-assets/nrg/journal/v4/n8/images/nrg1124-f3.gif

Get it?

If you want to say that R1b and R1a split before J2a and J2b split then look up the dates and compare, not that I see what that would prove, because in any case it's thousands of years ago.

Before posting further please pick up and read some introductory material on the y chromosome.


J2a and J2b are not both subclades of J2a, could you please read what you have written ....

Maciamo would you please educate this people

I have not said anything about which spilt when

Yaan
16-10-17, 20:07
There is J2, R1a and R1b, nobody is speaking about R1

Angela
16-10-17, 20:12
It was a typo, already corrected. You jumped the gun. Had you bothered to click the link you would have seen I specifically linked to the eupedia article.

"Yes, J2a and J2b are both "sublines" of J2."

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bd/48/7c/bd487cd0228cf9c56ab763b0811370ff.png

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/phylogenetic_trees_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#J2
R1a and R1b also split from a common ancestor: R1. Look at the damn links to the y phylogeny. R1a and R1b are not "more" separate lines than J2 or J2a or J2b are. They're all separate lines.

You seem to have a problem with logic and with that I can't help you.

Daggo
16-10-17, 23:34
A lot of North West Europeans are J2, some clades of J2a coming from Roman or Jewish or Celtic people , some J2b2 clades coming from a lot of sources, you guys here need to learn that your direct male line is not what defines who you are :) Maybe 80% of the man in your family from the down of time are R1b , but the rest could be everything , it changes nothing and it means nothing in terms of self identification :)

Congrats on your cool and not common in your part of the world male line :)

There is J2 from early middle ages ( 1 a and 1 b I think) from The Netherlands :) Here some guys said that the people were Avar mercenaries or something, but it could come from a lot of sources in NL :)

I wasn't implying that my Y-DNA determined who I was, I'm well aware that it's only your direct male lineage and not your heritage as a whole, I just said I found it interesting.

Nik
17-10-17, 00:51
There is J2, R1a and R1b, nobody is speaking about R1
Actually J2a and J2b seem less related to each other in terms of their distribution than R1a and R1b, where you see one (R1b) dominating the west while R1a the East.

The distribution of J2a and J2b is more "random" in comparison to each other and especially that of J2b alone.

Not that it really matters but since you consider the J2 a more tight family, perhaps you should do more research on their rebellious kids. ;)

Trojet
17-10-17, 01:12
J2 splits into J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 some 27,700 years ago: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/

While R1 splits into R1a and R1b some 22,800 years ago, see here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1/

So to the contrary of what Yaan claims. In actuality the split of J2 into J2a and J2b is older than the split of R1 into R1a and R1b. (Or perhaps he doesn't understand simple phylogeny, that R1 is the ancestor of R1a and R1b, just like J2 is the ancestor of J2a and J2b).

Yaan
17-10-17, 06:31
J2 splits into J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 some 27,700 years ago: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/

While R1 splits into R1a and R1b some 22,800 years ago, see here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1/

So to the contrary of what Yaan claims. In actuality the split of J2 into J2a and J2b is older than the split of R1 into R1a and R1b. (Or perhaps he doesn't understand simple phylogeny, that R1 is the ancestor of R1a and R1b, just like J2 is the ancestor of J2a and J2b).

So you all guys spit on Maciamo and serious Genetics why?

Nik
17-10-17, 12:44
So you all guys spit on Maciamo and serious Genetics why?
I thought perhaps we are all being stubborn and not really listening to what you're saying, so I went and I checked what Maciamo wrote on J2. I still don't get your point.

I guess you'd have to provide a paragraph written by him or geneticists.

Yaan
17-10-17, 18:22
I thought perhaps we are all being stubborn and not really listening to what you're saying, so I went and I checked what Maciamo wrote on J2. I still don't get your point.

I guess you'd have to provide a paragraph written by him or geneticists.

Yes exactly :) I am saying that there is a Haplogroup called J2, which has 2 major subtypes J2a and J2b, while the guys here say- No it is stupid, actually there is no Haplogroup J2, there is one Called J2a and a different one called J2b :)

Angela
17-10-17, 18:31
Yes exactly :) I am saying that there is a Haplogroup called J2, which has 2 major subtypes J2a and J2b, while the guys here say- No it is stupid, actually there is no Haplogroup J2, there is one Called J2a and a different one called J2b :)

No one here has said that there is no haplogroup J2.

Forget it, this is pointless.

My advice to other members: ignore these posts.

Yaan
17-10-17, 18:37
No one here has said that there is no haplogroup J2.

Forget it, this is pointless.

My advice to other members: ignore these posts.
Please never ever write to me, I am here to discuss with people who are interested in genetics.

Angela
17-10-17, 18:54
Buddy, you don't control who responds to content on this site. As for genetics, your lack of knowledge is proved by the absolute gibberish you're posting. Nor, it seems, are you capable of reading comprehension beyond the elementary school level, at least not in English. Take up another hobby and stop wasting everyone's time with uninformed nonsense.

Sile
17-10-17, 20:08
I thought perhaps we are all being stubborn and not really listening to what you're saying, so I went and I checked what Maciamo wrote on J2. I still don't get your point.

I guess you'd have to provide a paragraph written by him or geneticists.

yaan seems to be saying -

nobody speaks about R1 haplogroup, they only speak about R1a or R1b , so

nobody should speak about J2, but should only speak about J2a or J2b

Yaan
17-10-17, 21:07
yaan seems to be saying -

nobody speaks about R1 haplogroup, they only speak about R1a or R1b , so

nobody should speak about J2, but should only speak about J2a or J2b

Yes this is all I was saying :) So people do understand :)

Yaan
17-10-17, 21:09
I have asked Maciamo some years ago to make a separate chart for J2a and J2b but he said that it is not necessary, because unlike R1a and R1b, J2a and J2b are not apart enough :) I do see his point and so do all Genetic people :)

Nik
17-10-17, 21:28
I have no idea what's going on and who's claiming what. I'm out.

Angela
18-10-17, 18:14
And there we go again: uninformed, insistent people ruin a perfectly good thread because informed posters drop out. I don't know a way to stop it. The rules don't allow bans for being both uninformed and stubborn.

Yaan
18-10-17, 18:42
And there we go again: uninformed, insistent people ruin a perfectly good thread because informed posters drop out. I don't know a way to stop it. The rules don't allow bans for being both uninformed and stubborn.

Informed people like me say there is a haplogroup J2, people like you say no, no, no, no there is Haplogroup J2a and another one J2b. What of the things I have said is not right? Can you please say what of the things I have said is not right? Maciamo and genetics think like me and you and a bunch of nationalist Albanians come here to stalk me and in the end I deserve a ban....

Leka
18-10-17, 19:07
Informed people like me say there is a haplogroup J2, people like you say no, no, no, no there is Haplogroup J2a and another one J2b. What of the things I have said is not right? Can you please say what of the things I have said is not right? Maciamo and genetics think like me and you and a bunch of nationalist Albanians come here to stalk me and in the end I deserve a ban....

Dude, just drop it. You're dead wrong and so is Maciamo if he ever said that to you. Read Trojet's post up above your nonsense and educate yourself.

davef
18-10-17, 19:10
No one here has said that there is no haplogroup J2.

Forget it, this is pointless.

My advice to other members: ignore these posts.
Yaan, Angela never said there's no J2 and neither has anyone else.

Yaan
18-10-17, 19:11
Dude, just drop it. You're dead wrong and so is Maciamo if he ever said that to you. Read Trojet's post up above your nonsense and educate yourself.


All I said it there is no separate haplogroup J2a or J2b there is a haplogroup called J2.

So you say there is no haplogroup called J2? Check the chart here in the site please!

Yaan
18-10-17, 19:14
Then what is the problem? I said there is no J2a or J2b only J2, which has asubtubes of J2a and J2b, why are they ******** me then ?

Jovialis
18-10-17, 19:25
Then what is the problem? I said there is no J2a or J2b only J2, which has asubtubes of J2a and J2b, why are they ******** me then ?

Yaan, this post should have been sufficient in clearing things up for you:


It was a typo, already corrected. You jumped the gun. Had you bothered to click the link you would have seen I specifically linked to the eupedia article.

"Yes, J2a and J2b are both "sublines" of J2."

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/bd/48/7c/bd487cd0228cf9c56ab763b0811370ff.png

https://www.eupedia.com/genetics/phylogenetic_trees_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#J2
R1a and R1b also split from a common ancestor: R1. Look at the damn links to the y phylogeny. R1a and R1b are not "more" separate lines than J2 or J2a or J2b are. They're all separate lines.

You seem to have a problem with logic and with that I can't help you.

Yaan
18-10-17, 19:27
I still do not see why they have attacked me? I have said there is no J2a Haplogroup or J2b Haplogroup only J2 Haplogroup, a and b are just subtypes.

J2a and J2b are like R1a-M458 and R1a -Z93! Because both of the first are Haplogroup J2 and the second haplogroup R1a .

Yaan
18-10-17, 19:28
All J2a men are also J2 so are all J2b men, so if we all agree on this what is the problem and why are we still leading this discussion? :)

davef
18-10-17, 19:32
Think of J2 as a chocolate donut. J2a is a chocolate donut with frosting, and J2b is a glazed chocolate donut. They are variations of the same kind of donut: chocolate

Yaan
18-10-17, 19:36
Think of J2 as a chocolate donut. J2a is a chocolate donut with frosting, and J2b is a glazed chocolate donut. They are variations of the same kind of donut: chocolate

This is exactly what I am saying

Megalophias
18-10-17, 19:48
I still do not see why they have attacked me? I have said there is no J2a Haplogroup or J2b Haplogroup only J2 Haplogroup, a and b are just subtypes.
J2a and J2b are also haplogroups, they are not any less haplogroups than J2 is a haplogroup. J2 is 'just a subtype' of J, J is 'just a subtype' of IJ, etc back to the beginning of humans. And J2b1 is a haplogroup, and J2b1a is haplogroup, and so on down.

Yaan
18-10-17, 19:52
J2a and J2b are also haplogroups, they are not any less haplogroups than J2 is a haplogroup. J2 is 'just a subtype' of J, J is 'just a subtype' of IJ, etc back to the beginning of humans. And J2b1 is a haplogroup, and J2b1a is haplogroup, and so on down.


This is missing the point, here we are talking is J2 a haplogroup yes or no and the answer is yes :)

davef
18-10-17, 19:57
J2, J2a, and J2b are all haplogroups

Jovialis
18-10-17, 19:59
Informed people like me say there is a haplogroup J2, people like you say no, no, no, no there is Haplogroup J2a and another one J2b. What of the things I have said is not right? Can you please say what of the things I have said is not right? Maciamo and genetics think like me and you and a bunch of nationalist Albanians come here to stalk me and in the end I deserve a ban....

J2a is a haplogroup, J2b is a haplogroup; both of them are descendants of J2 which is it's own haplogroup.


Yes exactly :) I am saying that there is a Haplogroup called J2, which has 2 major subtypes J2a and J2b, while the guys here say- No it is stupid, actually there is no Haplogroup J2, there is one Called J2a and a different one called J2b :)

No one has said this.

Megalophias
18-10-17, 20:07
OK, so you have been arguing for pages because even though everyone agrees about everything, people are confused by your wording in English? OK, so stop, we all agree, you have expressed yourself badly in another language, that is no crime.

(All Y haplogroups *are* A, just as all mt haplogroups are L. I think people *not* saying this causes far more confusion than otherwise. But this is even more off-topic.)

Jovialis
18-10-17, 20:13
(All Y haplogroups *are* A, just as all mt haplogroups are L. I think people *not* saying this causes far more confusion than otherwise. But this is even more off-topic.)
https://i.imgur.com/tSWv0nx.png
Yes all Y-haplogroups are descendants of A, but I think he was confused in thinking J2a (M410) and J2b (M102) are both "J2"; when J2 (M172) is it's own haplogroup they are descended from.

...I think he was confused, it's kind of hard to follow what he's saying TBH :confused2:

Edit:
Probably would have been better to ignore.

Yetos
18-10-17, 21:00
yup

a question to genetists,

is J2 still a I hg?

I mean is still IJ in J2 and in I2?
or not?

Jovialis
18-10-17, 22:05
yup

a question to genetists,

is J2 still a I hg?

I mean is still IJ in J2 and in I2?
or not?

I'm not a geneticist, but according to this chart, J1 and J2 split from J; after it was IJ. It was not a part of haplogroup I.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/haplogroups-timeline.png

https://i.imgur.com/2A0UoAW.png

Yaan
18-10-17, 22:44
OK, so you have been arguing for pages because even though everyone agrees about everything, people are confused by your wording in English? OK, so stop, we all agree, you have expressed yourself badly in another language, that is no crime.

(All Y haplogroups *are* A, just as all mt haplogroups are L. I think people *not* saying this causes far more confusion than otherwise. But this is even more off-topic.)

Yes they should really learn some English :)

Nik
18-10-17, 23:00
Lol this is still going on. I think Yaan is doing this on purpose like the YouTube ******.

Is J2 a haplogroup? What if it's a conspiracy theory and J2 is not the real father of J2a and J2b, but rather the adoptive one. I smell Illuminati over here.

Back on topic, a split J2a and J2b map would be great (although I think I've seen one). For instance Greece and Albania are very close genetically and one would simply assume that the J2 distribution is a continuity of the same branches, when in reality Greece is high on J2a and very low on J2b and the exact opposite for Albania.

Jovialis
18-10-17, 23:28
Yes they should really learn some English :)

I'm pretty sure he's referring to you, Yaan.

Fustan
19-10-17, 00:53
So you all guys spit on Maciamo and serious Genetics why?

macaimo is hardly a serious geneticist when he can't even differentiate j2b1 and j2b2

Azzurro
19-10-17, 04:15
macaimo is hardly a serious geneticist when he can't even differentiate j2b1 and j2b2

Fustan no need to insult Maciamo, in my opinion and I have spoke to many regarding Y dna including researchers on various papers, project admins and brilliant amateur posters, for me Maciamo is one of the most educated persons in the genetic field across all scopes. You can agree and disagree with his theories as everyone is entitled to their opinions. In terms of your statement in the updated J2 genetic info page he discusses the differences between the two.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b1

Angela
19-10-17, 05:08
The problem is that he doesn't understand what Maciamo has written, or what anyone else has posted for that matter, which should have been clear to everyone long ago.

Yetos
19-10-17, 19:47
I'm not a geneticist, but according to this chart, J1 and J2 split from J; after it was IJ. It was not a part of haplogroup I.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml
https://www.eupedia.com/images/content/haplogroups-timeline.png

https://i.imgur.com/2A0UoAW.png

Jiovalis

I repeat my question,
and again to all

is there still I hg in J2b or J2a?

or the oposite,
is there still J hg in I1 or I2?

Fustan
19-10-17, 20:52
Fustan no need to insult Maciamo, in my opinion and I have spoke to many regarding Y dna including researchers on various papers, project admins and brilliant amateur posters, for me Maciamo is one of the most educated persons in the genetic field across all scopes. You can agree and disagree with his theories as everyone is entitled to their opinions. In terms of your statement in the updated J2 genetic info page he discusses the differences between the two.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b1


you can take it as an insult, I really don't care, when maciamo has had the prievelege to have an expert on this haplogroup to help him out (Trojet) and he completely ignores it and does the same mistake over and over again

I'd get it if he was misinformed or something, but when he has the man you need to talk to regarding j2b, he ignores him, which I take as a total insult

and then he goes on to consider posts from garrick and the australian diaspora, who have been doing nothing but shitpost against albanians for literally years, truly pathetic

seems like the only thing that can help maciamo in this case if he tatoos this post on his body:

J2 splits into J2a-M410 and J2b-M102 some 27,700 years ago: https://www.yfull.com/tree/J2/

While R1 splits into R1a and R1b some 22,800 years ago, see here: https://www.yfull.com/tree/R1/

So to the contrary of what Yaan claims. In actuality the split of J2 into J2a and J2b is older than the split of R1 into R1a and R1b. (Or perhaps he doesn't understand simple phylogeny, that R1 is the ancestor of R1a and R1b, just like J2 is the ancestor of J2a and J2b).

Fatherland
19-10-17, 21:09
you can take it as an insult, I really don't care, when maciamo has had the prievelege to have an expert on this haplogroup to help him out (Trojet) and he completely ignores it and does the same mistake over and over again

I'd get it if he was misinformed or something, but when he has the man you need to talk to regarding j2b, he ignores him, which I take as a total insult

and then he goes on to consider posts from garrick and the australian diaspora, who have been doing nothing but shitpost against albanians for literally years, truly pathetic

seems like the only thing that can help maciamo in this case if he tatoos this post on his body:

What Trojet says literally is the true truth.

Sile
19-10-17, 21:58
What Trojet says literally is the true truth.

from yfull
J-L283 Z8409 * L283 * Z622+61 SNPsformed 9900 ybp, TMRCA 6000 ybpinfo

90% of samples are from Sardinia, Tuscany and Iberia

is your sample in Yfull?

Fatherland
19-10-17, 22:02
from yfull
J-L283 Z8409 * L283 * Z622+61 SNPsformed 9900 ybp, TMRCA 6000 ybpinfo

90% of samples are from Sardinia, Tuscany and Iberia

is your sample in Yfull?
The thing is.. You are always wrong.

Sile is the most useless poster on this site. No offense, but it is the truth.

No substance, no credibility, nothing brought to the table..

Angela
19-10-17, 22:33
The thing is.. You are always wrong.

Sile is the most useless poster on this site. No offense, but it is the truth.

No substance, no credibility, nothing brought to the table..

Members don't get to insult other members personally that way. Cut it out.

Stick to disagreeing with content, understand?

Azzurro
19-10-17, 22:36
you can take it as an insult, I really don't care, when maciamo has had the prievelege to have an expert on this haplogroup to help him out (Trojet) and he completely ignores it and does the same mistake over and over again

I'd get it if he was misinformed or something, but when he has the man you need to talk to regarding j2b, he ignores him, which I take as a total insult

and then he goes on to consider posts from garrick and the australian diaspora, who have been doing nothing but shitpost against albanians for literally years, truly pathetic

seems like the only thing that can help maciamo in this case if he tatoos this post on his body:


I didn't take it like an insult, I just disagree. Totally agree with Trojet he is also one of the most educated in Y genetics, I have spoke to him here and on Anthrogenica, I always look forward to his analysis. A truly brilliant man.

I also agree that the Anti-Albanian sentiments need to stop on all forums. I think nobody takes them serious in regards to their theories about Albanians, I may be wrong that some do.

For J2b-L283 you know the best thing is to listen to Trojet anyways.

I just want to add one thing apart of this, I find the issue with J2a and J2b is that less people focus on them rather than R1b, R1a and the I's. There is always less information about both J2a and J2b just look at Wikipedia how small the pages are versus R1b, R1a, etc...

Daggo
19-10-17, 23:29
Good lord this thread derailed fast.

Angela
19-10-17, 23:40
@Fustan,

It's thanks to Maciamo that we have this site on which to post our agreements or disagreements with him or with anyone else, so long as we keep it civil.

It's like being invited to someone's home and then spitting on his floor.Were you raised in a stable or something?


If you can't show him some respect, get out, or, I'll take you out.

Capisce?

Trojet
20-10-17, 02:24
I didn't take it like an insult, I just disagree. Totally agree with Trojet he is also one of the most educated in Y genetics, I have spoke to him here and on Anthrogenica, I always look forward to his analysis. A truly brilliant man.

I also agree that the Anti-Albanian sentiments need to stop on all forums. I think nobody takes them serious in regards to their theories about Albanians, I may be wrong that some do.

For J2b-L283 you know the best thing is to listen to Trojet anyways.

I just want to add one thing apart of this, I find the issue with J2a and J2b is that less people focus on them rather than R1b, R1a and the I's. There is always less information about both J2a and J2b just look at Wikipedia how small the pages are versus R1b, R1a, etc...

Thanks for the compliments mate :smile:
I also find your posts very informative and honest.

Although, I have to say that Fustan has a good point. Maciamo has had a history of suggesting that all "J2b" in the Balkans is as a result of the same Bronze Age I-E migration, as can be seen in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34078-J2b-as-an-IE-lineages-of-the-ancient-Illyrians-Mycenaeans when in fact only J2b2a-L283 was found in Bronze Age Croatia.

As I pointed out on a different forum and here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34078-J2b-as-an-IE-lineages-of-the-ancient-Illyrians-Mycenaeans?p=508699&viewfull=1#post508699), IMHO it would be illogical to assume all "J2b" lineages co-migrated since their split at ca. 15,900 ybp to the Western Balkans during the Bronze Age, especially when there is no phylogenetic or ancient DNA evidence, except for J2b2a-L283. However, after I posted this (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34078-J2b-as-an-IE-lineages-of-the-ancient-Illyrians-Mycenaeans/page7?p=511487&viewfull=1#post511487), I am glad that Maciamo has recently opened a dedicated section for J2b1-M205 on his J2 page (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b1) and pointed out where it's been found in ancient DNA.

EDIT: This is nothing personal against Maciamo or his site. Simply suggestions, to reflect the latest research. I actually applaud his intitiative and efforts to keep everything as much up to date as possible, considering how fast this field is advancing.

Nik
20-10-17, 10:54
@Fustan,

It's thanks to Maciamo that we have this site on which to post our agreements or disagreements with him or with anyone else, so long as we keep it civil.

It's like being invited to someone's home and then spitting on his floor.Were you raised in a stable or something?


If you can't show him some respect, get out, or, I'll take you out.

Capisce?
Not disagreeing with you on the merits of Maciamo at all, but we aren't really his home guests as much as his "clients" or the drive to keep this forum alive. And there's usually 10-20 people doing most of the work around here anyway, so he and you as a moderator should be interested to treat people with respect as being banned from a forum is not a big deal on anyone's life.

And why are you always using Italian to throw threats around with the misspelled "capisce", or "chiaro", etc.?

Isn't it against this forums rules to use other languages? Do you even speak Italian by the way? I'd suppose you'd write "capisci", or you're referring to the Americanized version pronounced like in Sicilian?

davef
20-10-17, 16:01
Not disagreeing with you on the merits of Maciamo at all, but we aren't really his home guests as much as his "clients" or the drive to keep this forum alive. And there's usually 10-20 people doing most of the work around here anyway, so he and you as a moderator should be interested to treat people with respect as being banned from a forum is not a big deal on anyone's life.
And why are you always using Italian to throw threats around with the misspelled "capisce", or "chiaro", etc.?
Isn't it against this forums rules to use other languages? Do you even speak Italian by the way? I'd suppose you'd write "capisci", or you're referring to the Americanized version pronounced like in Sicilian?
https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/capisce
She spelled it right

Angela
20-10-17, 16:02
Not disagreeing with you on the merits of Maciamo at all, but we aren't really his home guests as much as his "clients" or the drive to keep this forum alive. And there's usually 10-20 people doing most of the work around here anyway, so he and you as a moderator should be interested to treat people with respect as being banned from a forum is not a big deal on anyone's life.

And why are you always using Italian to throw threats around with the misspelled "capisce", or "chiaro", etc.?

Isn't it against this forums rules to use other languages? Do you even speak Italian by the way? I'd suppose you'd write "capisci", or you're referring to the Americanized version pronounced like in Sicilian?

Are you paying for the privilege of posting here?

As for the Italian, occasionally a word slips out. You're lucky I'm a lady, or a lot of other words would be slipping out right now. Also, before you comment on Italian, learn it. Or are you one of those people whose knowledge of Italian is the bastardized dialect phrases they heard from their great-grandparents, or who learns and goes around speaking some type of "pidgin" Italian, like a lot of immigrants to Italy, thinking you sound just fine? Just out of curiosity, how do you think I understood Blevins' whole Italian video in the future of Europe thread? Magic?

Why do I even bother having discussions with people like you? If it weren't for posters like you who ruin thread after thread after thread, more and better posters would stay.

Bergin
20-10-17, 19:34
What is the nomenclature for those who are just J2 without the specializations of J2a or J2b? Are there any of these people still surviving?

Azzurro
20-10-17, 22:30
Thanks for the compliments mate :smile:
I also find your posts very informative and honest.

Although, I have to say that Fustan has a good point. Maciamo has had a history of suggesting that all "J2b" in the Balkans is as a result of the same Bronze Age I-E migration, as can be seen in this thread: https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34078-J2b-as-an-IE-lineages-of-the-ancient-Illyrians-Mycenaeans when in fact only J2b2a-L283 was found in Bronze Age Croatia.

As I pointed out on a different forum and here (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34078-J2b-as-an-IE-lineages-of-the-ancient-Illyrians-Mycenaeans?p=508699&viewfull=1#post508699), IMHO it would be illogical to assume all "J2b" lineages co-migrated since their split at ca. 15,900 ybp to the Western Balkans during the Bronze Age, especially when there is no phylogenetic or ancient DNA evidence, except for J2b2a-L283. However, after I posted this (https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/34078-J2b-as-an-IE-lineages-of-the-ancient-Illyrians-Mycenaeans/page7?p=511487&viewfull=1#post511487), I am glad that Maciamo has recently opened a dedicated section for J2b1-M205 on his J2 page (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_J2_Y-DNA.shtml#J2b1) and pointed out where it's been found in ancient DNA.

EDIT: This is nothing personal against Maciamo or his site. Simply suggestions, to reflect the latest research. I actually applaud his intitiative and efforts to keep everything as much up to date as possible, considering how fast this field is advancing.

My pleasure and thanks brother :)

hrvclv
18-11-17, 12:44
I love this site. And I love this forum.
It's just fantastic and teaches us so much about ourselves, however uncertain and "provisional" the info can remain until more discoveries confirm them.
But I think reading the threads would be much more pleasant if everyone simply made an effort to remain POLITE. I'm getting increasingly uncomfortable with those recurrent fiery, incensed posts. People who disagree should mind at least the wording of their remarks. And it is also disturbing that whoever misbehaves should instantly get threatened with expulsion. A moderator, from my point of view, should, just like a teacher, look at things from above, retain some critical distance and self-control. Of course, over time, the reiteration of absurd views and rude sentences can get the better of you. But calls to reason may be stated tactfully first, and more firmly later on if need be. The threads would be much more pleasant to read if we didn't have to skip the inevitable squabbles that systematically pollute them.
Can everyone please make an effort and behave themselves ?

Angela
18-11-17, 19:08
Oh please....

I get constant complaints about the Balkan posters, who ruin thread after thread with their jingoistic, uninformed or deliberate distortion of the facts. The only posts less welcome to most posters are those from Nordicists of different varieties.

You might also notice the reputation points some users "don't have", or go to their profiles and see how many times they've been reprimanded for insults, racist ******** etc. Some of these people about whom you're so concerned have threatened to come to our houses to shoot us, and have in pms threatened me with behavior and called me names that as a lady I won't repeat. We've had to report some of these people to the FBI. Some of them are known members of racist organizations.

When they're banned, they use different servers and register under an alias. Of course, since I've been here for seven years, I recognize the "voice". I know that someone posting from Brazil, or Cuba, is not posting from there at all, and is, for example, actually Albanian.

The "threats" to which you take exception are to try to get them to moderate their behavior. Would you prefer I just outright ban them on the first offense?

Welcome to the dark underbelly of population genetics.

I usually think it's best to keep my mouth shut early days anywhere until I figure out what is going on. I recommend that idea to you.

Now, let's get back to J2.

hrvclv
18-11-17, 20:35
@Angela
Don't misunderstand me. I'm not in any way "concerned" about anyone in particular - all the less so about people who support nonsensical options. I find your own posts extremely well-informed, thought-provoking and informative. And of course I had no idea what was going on off-stage.
It's just that thread after thread those skirmishes seem to go on and on, and their tone feels quite discrepant with the overall high-level scientific data and info provided on the site. The resulting feeling is uneasiness at best, and exasperation at worst. I don't intend to push this any further. I just think the thing had to be pointed out. No hard feelings.