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Maciamo
22-12-10, 21:28
After working on the new J2 map (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26150), and making maps for other major haplogroups (R1b, R1a, I1, I2a, G2a), I felt that time had come to gather my strength and design a map of E1b1b. Ideally I should make maps for each of the three main subclades (E-M81, E-M78 and E-M123), and even sub-subclades (such as E-V13), but data is too sparse at the moment.

Let me know if you find any inconsistencies with what you know about this haplogroup.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

Wilhelm
22-12-10, 22:46
Yet again the Galician E-M81 being overexaggerated for unknown reasons. Galicia has not 25% of E-M81, (that was only in 1 single study). If you sum up all the studies about Galicia it comes about 12-15 % of E-M81. Capelli et al. 2009 found E1b1b there at only 6.8%. Adams et al. 2008 I think claimed 9%. In a sample of 137 at Iberianroots Galicia has 7.32 % of E-M81. It's up to you ..

Shetop
22-12-10, 22:56
Albania
North – 41.21%
South – 28.10%
http://www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/fulltext.html

Bulgaria
Probable frequency is between 20 – 25%.
Maximum in Central and Northwestern, Minimum in Northeastern
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna/default.aspx?section=yresults

Serbia - around 20%
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo
Maximum in Southeastern (more than 25%), Minimum in Western (less than 15%)
Northern Serbia 16.76% (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17482396)
Kosovo 47.40%

Macedonia – around 25%
Maximum in Northwestern, Minimum in Southern

Croatia 5 – 10%
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

Southwestern Romania - around 20%

how yes no 2
22-12-10, 23:00
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dc/Ancient_colonies.PNG/800px-Ancient_colonies.PNG

sea coast hotspots match Greek colonies...

hotspot in France is interesting... well, if Franks really did move from Asia minor after Trojan war (as their legend of origin states) than they could carry it...

curiously, Brittany is lacking both E and J2

surprisingly, hotspot in Iberia matches position of Suebi..though it could be due to previous inhabitants...according to figure bellow area was settled with PIE peoples before Celts...from story of Caledoni/Caladuni (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26103) we can assume that at least part of E came to area (more or less matching Portugal) by sea, from area rich in E perhaps from Balkan... note that there are also Helleni among those tribes.. we can see that tribe Turduli Oppidani spread accross part of sea coast of Portugal has somewhat less E than its neighbours

hole in Iberia matches position of Visigoths.... hm could arrival of Visigoths actually cause big scale depopulation of area?this would indicate that footprint of Visigoths was something different than dominant I1...alternatively, previous settlers had very low E ... but shape and spread cannot be covered by single previous tribe...or this is not the hole, but is surrounded with hotspots as its neighbours on west of peninsula and on sea coasts got much more E (most likely explanation)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg/727px-Iberia_300BC.svg.png
for larger image: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

Maciamo
23-12-10, 00:40
Yet again the Galician E-M81 being overexaggerated for unknown reasons. Galicia has not 25% of E-M81, (that was only in 1 single study). If you sum up all the studies about Galicia it comes about 12-15 % of E-M81. Capelli et al. 2009 found E1b1b there at only 6.8%. Adams et al. 2008 I think claimed 9%. In a sample of 137 at Iberianroots Galicia has 7.32 % of E-M81. It's up to you ..

It's not just E-M81 (E1b1b1b), but all E1b1b (E-M215 and subclades).

The Capelli et al. study only analysed E-M81, not all E1b1b.

Flores et al. reported 26.3% of E1b1b + 5.3% of E1b1a in Galicia.

Adams et al. gave 9% of E-M81 for Galicia, but 17% of E1b1b in total.

Maca-Meyer et al. found 24% of E1b1b in the Pasiegos of adjacent Cantabria, and an average of 20% for all Cantabrians.

I didn't put all Galicia in "20-30%", but just the eastern part, as the hotspots seems to be located there (given the high incidence of E1b1b in Castilla-y-Leon too).

This made me realise that I forgot to add the hotspot around Cantabria.

Wilhelm
23-12-10, 00:47
It's not just E-M81 (E1b1b1b), but all E1b1b (E-M215 and subclades).

The Capelli et al. study only analysed E-M81, not all E1b1b.

Flores et al. reported 26.3% of E1b1b + 5.3% of E1b1a in Galicia.

Adams et al. gave 9% of E-M81 for Galicia, but 17% of E1b1b in total.

Maca-Meyer et al. found 24% of E1b1b in the Pasiegos of adjacent Cantabria, and an average of 20% for all Cantabrians.

Yes I know. Im talking about E1b1b also. In the sample of 137 of Iberianroots they have 14.6 % of E1b1b. The 25% has been found only in one single study...

Garrick
23-12-10, 01:36
Maciamo
The map for Balkan is no good, Serbia has less (17%), Romania has more (21%), Peloponnese has 47%, etc.

Carlitos
23-12-10, 01:51
http://www.geohistoarteducativa.org/Historiaespana/tar/pueblospre2-full.jpg

Garrick
23-12-10, 02:05
The source for Peloponnesians (E1b1b 47%) is:

Semino et al

Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E
and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory
Events in the Mediterranean Area

Maciamo
23-12-10, 10:07
Thanks for your feedback on the Balkans. It's important not to focus on just one study but make averages of all the data available.


Albania
North – 41.21%
South – 28.10%
http://www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/fulltext.html

Bulgaria
Probable frequency is between 20 – 25%.
Maximum in Central and Northwestern, Minimum in Northeastern
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/bulgariandna/default.aspx?section=yresults

Serbia - around 20%
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo
Maximum in Southeastern (more than 25%), Minimum in Western (less than 15%)
Northern Serbia 16.76% (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17482396)
Kosovo 47.40%

Macedonia – around 25%
Maximum in Northwestern, Minimum in Southern

Croatia 5 – 10%
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

Southwestern Romania - around 20%

Here are my sources (including those mentioned above).

Battaglia et al. (http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf) gives 25.4% of E1b1b for Albanians, 39.1% for Albanians from Macedonia, 23% for Macedonian Greeks, 22.3% for Bosnia Serbs, 10.3% for Osijek Croats, 8.9% for Bosnia Croats, 8.8% for Croats, 2.7% for Slovenians.

Bosch et al. (http://www.carswell.com.au/wp-content/documents/homogenous-balkan-analysis.pdf) reports 23.3% of E1b1b for Albanians, 23.1% for Macedonians, 12.9% for Romanians from Constanta, 16.7% for Romanians from Ploeisti.

Marjanovic et al. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1529-8817.2005.00190.x/pdf) found 22.3% of E1b1b in Bosnia Serbs, 12.9% in Bosniacs, and 8.9% in Bosnia Croats.

Semino et al. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181965/pdf/AJHGv74p1023.pdf) shows 20.3% of E1b1b in Macedonian Greeks, 25% in Albanians, 8.8% in Croats, 9.4% in Hungarians, and 8.6% in Ukrainians.

Cruciani et al. (2004) (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/pdf/AJHGv74p1014.pdf) mentions 31.6% of E1b1b in Albanians, 20.7% in Bulgarians, 21.4% in Romanians.

King et al. (http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/A_2002_v76_p707-714.pdf) has 15.2% of E1b1b in Macedonians, 23.6% in Albanians, 8.9% in Hungarians, 6.9% in Croats.

Mirabal et al. (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo) found 17.3% of E1b1b in Serbs and 27% in Montenegrins.

Ferri et al. (http://www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/fulltext.html) found an average of 30.3% of E1b1b in Albanians.

Kalevi Wiik in Where did European Men come from ? (http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik.pdf) made averages from various sources and reported 21.6% of E in Albanians, 15% in Macedonians, 17% in Bulgarians, 7.4% in Romanians, 12.8% in Moldovans and 3.1% in Ukrainians.


Greece has been the object of several detailed studies. I have attached a summary.

iapodos
23-12-10, 10:57
Shouldn't be much more E1b on the north of Albania and Kosovo than on the south of Albania how it is presented on the map?

how yes no 2
23-12-10, 11:06
Battaglia et al. (http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf) gives 25.4% of E1b1b for Albanians, 39.1% for Albanians from Macedonia, 23% for Macedonian Greeks, 22.3% for Bosnia Serbs, 10.3% for Osijek Croats, 8.9% for Bosnia Croats, 8.8% for Croats, 2.7% for Slovenians.


this work uses data of Marjanovic for Serbs, Bosnians, part of Croats sample..


The sample consists of 1206 unrelated male individuals from 17 population samples (Figure 1). Two-hundred and thirty-five of these, namely 64 Albanians from Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia, 29 Croatians from Osijek, 75 Slovenians and 67 northeast Italians (from the province of Trento), are reported here for the first time. The remaining include samples reported earlier, 23,27,33 and consist of 104 Caucasians (38 Balkarians and 66 Georgians), 149 Greeks (92 from Athens and 57 from Macedonia), 55 Albanians (collected in Tirana), 89 Croatians, 99 Polish, 75 Czechs, 92 Ukrainians, 53 Hungariansand 255 Bosnia-Herzegovinians (84 Bosniacs, 90 Croats and 81 Serbs).

Btw. Osijek shows 13.9% of G2a (quite large hotspot..I think it may go into G map) ... I wonder whether this is signature of Sarmatian Jazyges or perhaps part of markers of proto-Croats.. though percentage may be very wrong as sample size is small (only 29 people)

Maciamo
23-12-10, 11:55
I have made some amends to the map. What do you think ?

Garrick
23-12-10, 12:03
Maciamo

Not all studies are same quality and it is difficult to make on average over the simple arithmetic mean, better results are achieved by emphasizing those better, or by giving more weight to them.

For example American study for Serbia and Montenegro:

Mirabal et al (2010)
Human Y-Chromosome Short Tandem Repeats: A Tale of Acculturation and Migrations as Mechanisms for the Diffusion of Agriculture in the Balkan Peninsula

is high-quality than some studies done for Bosnia.

But let’s this ignore.

On the other hand, two studies in the Balkans and missing precisely those that are important to E1b1b:

Pericic et al (2005),
High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces
Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations

which presents peak E1b1b on Kosovo

and

Semino et al (2004),
Origin, Diffusion, and Differentiation of Y-Chromosome Haplogroups E
and J: Inferences on the Neolithization of Europe and Later Migratory
Events in the Mediterranean Area

which gives high percent E1b1b to Peloponnesus.

These two studies are important because they present where E1b1b the most concentrated.

But from the data that you give can be seen nonconformities between data and the map.

I will give four nonconformities:

1) In Serbia E1b1b is 17% according Mirabal et al and 20% according Pericic et al, if someone calculates arithmetic mean it is 18.5%, but the big part of Serbia is shown color which represent 20-30%.

2) On Kosovo according Pericic et al E1b1b is 45.6%, on the map is 20-30%.

3) With the inclusion of studies Semino et al where E1b1b is 47% of the Peloponnesus, we get the color that represents 30-40%, and if someone does averages it is still much more than 5% in current map.

4) In Romania E1b1b is about 20% wih arithmetic means but on map is 1-5% and 5-10%.


Precisely maps the distribution E1b1b in the Balkans for Mirabal et al, Semino et al, and Pericic et al can be useful for drawing map that reflects current knowledge.

Garrick
23-12-10, 12:13
I have made some amends to the map. What do you think ?

Maciamo, OK, now I think, it is much better aligned with the relevant literature.

how yes no 2
23-12-10, 12:15
I have made some amends to the map. What do you think ?
It looks correct to me...
Btw. where exactly is the hotspot that is visible in central Europe? looks like Slovakia to me...

Maciamo
23-12-10, 12:20
[FONT=Verdana]1) In Serbia E1b1b is 17% according Mirabal et al and 20% according Pericic et al, if someone calculates arithmetic mean it is 18.5%, but the big part of Serbia is shown color which represent 20-30%.

Kosovo and Montenegro having much higher frequencies, the 15-20% applies only to northern Serbia.



2) On Kosovo according Pericic et al E1b1b is 45.6%, on the map is 20-30%.

Have you refreshed the page since I updated the map ? Kosovo is right on the hotspot (over 40%).



3) With the inclusion of studies Semino et al where E1b1b is 47% of the Peloponnesus, we get the color that represents 30-40%, and if someone does averages it is still much more than 5% in current map.


Semino et al. only tested a few people from one place in the Peloponnese. I considered other data too.


4) In Romania E1b1b is about 20% wih arithmetic means but on map is 1-5% and 5-10%.

Only one study found 20% of E1b1b in Romania. Others + the FTDNA Project for Romania (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Romania/default.aspx?section=results) give an average of 10-15%, but not evenly spread (higher density in the south and north-east).

Maciamo
23-12-10, 12:22
It looks correct to me...
Btw. where exactly is the hotspot that is visible in central Europe? looks like Slovakia to me...

Slovakia and eastern Austria have about 11%. Not really a hotspot considering that surrounding areas have about 9%. But still, I wanted to show that it was above 10%.

Garrick
23-12-10, 12:53
Kosovo and Montenegro having much higher frequencies, the 15-20% applies only to northern Serbia.



Have you refreshed the page since I updated the map ? Kosovo is right on the hotspot (over 40%).



Semino et al. only tested a few people from one place in the Peloponnese. I considered other data too.



Only one study found 20% of E1b1b in Romania. Others + the FTDNA Project for Romania (http://www.familytreedna.com/public/Romania/default.aspx?section=results) give an average of 10-15%, but not evenly spread (higher density in the south and north-east).

Maciamo
OK, the map is much better now.

And You're right, Peloponnese sholud be further investigated.

But, the data about the Peloponnese from Semino et al are used, for example:
dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/fallmerayer/

It is interesting that Peloponnese and Kosovo have the highest peak E1b1b.

It wolud be very interesting to explore E1b1b in Romania (and Bulgaria).

Why is the Romania interesting?

Because there are opinions that the Dacians (and Thracians also) are originally E1b1b.

If it is true, Illyrians, Greek tribes, Thracians and Dacians are the same root, early (Neolithic) farmers.

Kalevy Week (2008) about Balkan:

"Clans E3b, J and G and represent the Early Farmers."

Thrace
23-12-10, 14:03
I am M84+, however this group seems very dispersed with no clear geographical hotspots. Samples range from the Levant, to Turkey taking a turn around Italy, Portugal and then appear in England? Looking at the region of appearance I would guess a predominantly seaborne allocation, best guess would be trading colonies possibly starting with the Phoenicians and later Semitic or Jewish traders? This group has taken advantage of the formation of Empires such the Roman and later the Ottomans for trade...I assume this since M84+ is never a majority in any location, appears close to important sea or land trading routes and usually below 5%.

Cambrius (The Red)
23-12-10, 15:59
Certainly, the Eupedia E-YDNA haplogroup averages for Galicia need to be reduced. They currently read 25% on the DNA tables.

Semitic Duwa
23-12-10, 18:46
And when is J1's new map coming?:)

Semitic Duwa
23-12-10, 18:52
There is an enclave of M123 clusters (M34 mainly) around the Dead Sea, we can't see it here for instance....

Maciamo
23-12-10, 19:59
There is an enclave of M123 clusters (M34 mainly) around the Dead Sea, we can't see it here for instance....

What percentage ? Sources ?

Semitic Duwa
23-12-10, 22:55
What percentage ? Sources ?

31%, Flores et al:

http://www.haplozone.net/wiki/index.php?title=Flores_et_al._(2005)

how yes no 2
24-12-10, 01:49
Slovakia and eastern Austria have about 11%. Not really a hotspot considering that surrounding areas have about 9%. But still, I wanted to show that it was above 10%.

"The genetic structure of the Slovak population revealed by Y-chromosome polymorphisms" - Eva PETREJCÍKOVÁ, Miroslav SOTÁK, Jarmila BERNASOVSKÁ, Ivan BERNASOVSKÝ, Adriana SOVICOVÁ, Alexandra BÔŽIKOVÁ, Iveta BORONOVÁ, Dana GABRIKOVÁ, Petra ŠVÍCKOVÁ, Sona MACEKOVÁ, Valéria CVERHOVÁ

ANTHROPOLOGICAL SCIENCE
Vol. 118(1), 23–30, 201


sample size 250

group__samples__percentage
E1b1b___18______7.2
J1_______3______1.2
J2a1b____3______1.2
J2a1h____1______0.4
J2b______2______0.8
I1_______19_____7.6
I2a______46____18.4
I2b1______4_____1.6
G2a______10______4
R1a______95_____38
R1b______33_____13.2
H_________6_____2.4
Q_________3_____1.2
N_________6_____2.4
T_________1_____0.4

Maciamo
24-12-10, 11:36
"The genetic structure of the Slovak population revealed by Y-chromosome polymorphisms" - Eva PETREJCÍKOVÁ, Miroslav SOTÁK, Jarmila BERNASOVSKÁ, Ivan BERNASOVSKÝ, Adriana SOVICOVÁ, Alexandra BÔŽIKOVÁ, Iveta BORONOVÁ, Dana GABRIKOVÁ, Petra ŠVÍCKOVÁ, Sona MACEKOVÁ, Valéria CVERHOVÁ

ANTHROPOLOGICAL SCIENCE
Vol. 118(1), 23–30, 201


sample size 250

group__samples__percentage
E1b1b___18______7.2

You may be right.

Kalevi Wiik in Where did European Men come from ? (http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik.pdf) reported 13.2% for Austria (15.6% in Tyrol) and 11% in Hungary, but it was just 10% in Slovakia. Cruciani et al. (2007) had 8.3% of E1b1b for Slovakia. Other studies on Austria show less than 10%, so I will just remove the 10-15% zone until matters are cleared.

how yes no 2
24-12-10, 13:23
You may be right.
Kalevi Wiik in Where did European Men come from ? (http://www.jogg.info/41/Wiik.pdf) reported 13.2% for Austria (15.6% in Tyrol) and 11% in Hungary, but it was just 10% in Slovakia. Cruciani et al. (2007) had 8.3% of E1b1b for Slovakia. Other studies on Austria show less than 10%, so I will just remove the 10-15% zone until matters are cleared.

ok, than 13.2% and 15.6% Austria hotspot should be on map...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9d/EU-Austria.svg/250px-EU-Austria.svg.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b7/Karte_A_Tirol.svg/250px-Karte_A_Tirol.svg.png

currently on map I see hole in Tyrol instead of hotspot

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

how yes no 2
24-12-10, 13:54
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Iron_Age_Italy.svg/300px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_people
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dc/Ancient_colonies.PNG/800px-Ancient_colonies.PNG

according to this map, Liburnian and Raetic people are hole in E-V13 spread...while Messapii and Greek/Illyrian colonies are hotspot, with Oscan speaking people (Semnites) also being strongly E...

I would expect less in Veneto, as Adriatic Veneti came from Paplagonia which is north part of Asia minor that is scarce in E ...however, previous inhabitants might had significant E

btw. where does data for Veneto come from? I remember discussion I had with someone regarding I2a2 in Veneto, and in fact we concluded that area was not sampled but only the nearby one of Raetians...

Garrick
25-12-10, 21:44
it is hard to say anything about it as many tribes passed through Romania and settled there... however all these tribes were moving in from E-V13 poor areas... so in past E-V13 must have been stronger, but it does not necessarily mean it was dominant...

how yes no
You're right, it is hard to say.

If we read Kalevy Week (2008) about Balkan: "Clans E3b, J and G and represent the Early Farmers."

and author says that:

"About 25 kya (25000 years) the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sent another branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans, and a new sub-Clan I emerged."

"Europe experienced a cooling climate and the onset of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM)."

"About 10 kya (10000 years) the farmers of the Middle East, representing African Clan E (its sub-clan E3b) and two sub-clans of F (the “Caucasian” Clan G and the “Near Eastern” Clan J), spread to Anatolia and further to Greece and the Mediterranean coast."

"Clans I, E3b, J, and G all originate from the Middle East, but only E3b, J, and G (not I) belong to the group of “Early Farmers.”

"Clan I had spread into Europe before the emergence of effective domestication of wild plants and animals (i.e. the beginning of agriculture and cattle raising) in the Middle East."

"Clan I represents the “Old Europeans”."

...

I think that we can link Dacians, Thracians, Greeks and Illyrians with early farmers.

And linguistic researchs can be helpful.

For example Greek language can be linked with J2 and old Romanian and Albanian language can be linked with E1b1b.

Today the Romanian language is a Latinized but even so, between Romanian and Albanian there are many similarities.

There are opinions that Albanians originate from one of part Dacians, and although they are close to the Illyrians and the ancient Greeks, not originate from them.

Some consider that today's Albanian population is similar population of Peloponnese and that somebody can make connections Peloponnese-Epirus-Albania.

The third opinion is that Albanians come from Illyrians directly.

The problem with the second opinion is the difference in language between today's Greek and Albanian, although of course it is possible to exist different versions of why this was so (but I do not want speculate now).

The problem with the third opinion is that in today's Albanian has very few words related to the sea, but Illyrian language certainly had to have sea words because the Illyrians inhabited the Adriatic coast.

It is theoretically possible that today's Albanians are originally Dacians (from some mountainous areas today's Romania), but it would mean that the original Dacians are E1b1b.

Shetop
25-12-10, 22:32
I used this predictor http://predictor.ydna.ru/ to get results for haplotypes from this study Population data for Y-chromosome haplotypes defined by 17 STRs in South-East Romania (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20621540). There were only a couple of less reliable predictions and for them I added predictions from this one Whit Athey's predictor (http://www.hprg.com/hapest5/hapest5a/hapest5.htm).
It resulted with 18.85% for E1b1b1 in South-East Romania and when I added results for Ploesti, (Paternal and maternal lineages in the Balkans show a homogeneous landscape over linguistic barriers, except for the isolated Aromuns (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-1809.2005.00251.x/full)) which is in the same region the number was 18.35% for South-East Romania.

For Northeast Romania there is only 7.4% found in this study: Population History of the Dniester-Carpathians:
Evidence from Alu Insertion and Y-Chromosome Polymorphisms (http://edoc.ub.uni-muenchen.de/5868/1/Varzari_Alexander.pdf) .

So for the whole Romania probable frequency should be between 8% and 18% for E1b1b1. The big range I gave is because there are no results from Transylvania.

I think we can’t conclude Dacians were only E1b1b1 since Romania has significant percentages of J2 and R1b (12% by Myres et al), but also G2a. These four Y-DNAs are obviously of pre migration period origin. I think Garrick had similar opinion.



It is theoretically possible that today's Albanians are originally Dacians (from some mountainous areas today's Romania), but it would mean that the original Dacians are E1b1b.

I believe there is no reason to assume Albanians came from Dacia. Can you provide some source for this idea?

how yes no 2
26-12-10, 02:45
I used this predictor
I think we can’t conclude Dacians were only E1b1b1 since Romania has significant percentages of J2 and R1b (12% by Myres et al), but also G2a. These four Y-DNAs are obviously of pre migration period origin. I think Garrick had similar opinion.
well, we cannot claim those 4 are completely from pre migration period... R1b could have been brought in by Goths and G2a by Sarmatians... and even J2 could have come via Caucasus.... we just can't conclude anything from data we have... when they go deeper in actual subbranches and their spread than it may be easier to draw conclusions...


For example Greek language can be linked with J2 and old Romanian and Albanian language can be linked with E1b1b
I used to think that as well...
but it seems that E-V13 was spread by Greeks as much as J2

and Greek language as IE language was probably brought into Greeks by some haplogroup other than E-V13 and J2... it could have been R1b or perhaps Dorians could have been haplogroup I.... (see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=362463&postcount=48 )

Greek E-V13 seems to be related to Aeolic Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic)
Elia on Peloponnese was probably also Aeolic in origin (well, even its name is derived from it) but language of Dorians prevailed....


Aeolic (pronounced /iːˈɒlɪk/) or Aeolian (/iːˈoʊlɪən/) Greek (also known as Lesbian or Lesbic Greek) is a linguistic term used to describe a set of rather archaic Greek sub-dialects, spoken mainly in Boeotia (a region in Central Greece), in Lesbos (an island close to Asia Minor) and in other Greek colonies.
The Aeolic dialect shows many archaisms, in comparison to the other Greek dialects (i.e. Ionian-Attic, Doric, Northwestern and Arcado-Cypriot), as well as many innovations.
Aeolic Greek is most widely known for being the language of the writings of Sappho and Alcaeus of Mytilene. Aeolic poetry, the most famous example of which being the works of Sappho, mostly uses four classical meters known as the Aeolics, which are: Glyconic (the most basic form of Aeolic line), Hendecasyllabic verse, Sapphic stanza and Alcaic stanza (the latter two so named after Sappho and Alcaeus respectively).
In Protagoras (dialogue) 341c of Plato, Prodicus labelled the Aeolic dialect as barbarian, while referring to Pittacus of Mytilene:[2]
he didn't know to distinguish the words correctly, being from Lesbos, and having been raised with a barbarian dialect
The Aeolic dialect might, in the time of Socrates and Plato, sound so strange to the Athenians, as to be termed, from an exclusive pride in the Attic literary style, barbaros.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg/660px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/d/dc/Ancient_colonies.PNG/800px-Ancient_colonies.PNG
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg



as for Albanians, I think they are genetically most related to Dardanians... but culturally and linguistically they could have been significantly influenced by some later movement e.g. by people led by Kuber
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuber

in fact, Aeolic Greece should be close to original language of Dardanians, as Aeolic is related to E-V13, was termed barbarian, and because Dardanians were also present in Asia minor in Troad area from where they came to Balkan), and Aeolic Greek includes Troad and port of coast south of it.....
so, I do wonder how similar Aeolic Greece is to modern Albanian...


The terms Dardanoi (Greek: "Δάρδανοι"), - its anglicized modern terms being Dardanians or Dardans & Dardan - in classical writings were synonymous with the term Trojan, the Dardanoi being Trojans themselves, an ancient people of the Troad, located in northwestern Anatolia. The Dardanoi derived their name from Dardanus, the mythical founder of Dardania, an ancient city in the Troad. Rule of the Troad was divided between Dardania and Troy. Homer makes a clear distinction between the Trojans and the Dardanoi.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)

Dardanians did live in Troad (they were not Trojans according to Homer who distinguish Trojans and Dardanians which could be difference between E-V13 and J2 as both seems to be strong in that area), and after Trojan wars moved to Balkan...

btw. there is significant genetic difference between Geghs (north Albanians) and Tosks (south Albanians)... I2a2 among Tosks seems to be recent admixture as study from Arberesche in Italy show large I but not I2a2... thus, it came from people who were recently (in last 500 years) Albanized which could have been Vlachs or Slavic people living in Albania...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

actually, I wonder whether Illyrians might have been dominantly J2, equal mix of J2 and E-v13, dominantly E-V13, or I2a2....

Albania (especially south part) seems to show large J2

Garrick
26-12-10, 04:05
I believe there is no reason to assume Albanians came from Dacia. Can you provide some source for this idea?



...as study from Arberesche in Italy show large I but not I2a2... http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

Shetop
You can see how yes no gave one source.

You can read the text:

"What we can conclude from this study is that the founding Albanian population was J2- and I2a- lite compared to modern Albanians. The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.


The source of J2 is less clear, and could be either the Albanization of Greeks (the only Balkan population with a sizeable J2 frequency) or remnants of Muslim Anatolians from Ottoman times. However, modern Albanians belong mainly to clade J2b, while Anatolians belong to J2a. Thus, I tend to dismiss the Anatolian connection."

And comments. One of them:

"However the idea of the Albanians originally coming from somewhere like Dacia seems to ring true. "

how yes no 2
26-12-10, 04:19
What we can conclude from this study is that the founding Albanian population was J2- and I2a- lite compared to modern Albanians.



The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.

yes, but being dominantly E-V13 they are not likely to be recent arrival.... thus, I think they are genetically mostly Dardanians in origin... Dardanians normally had no maritime terminology as they lived for long time (since fall of Troy) far away from sea....

note that in Serb medieval sources Albanians were named Arbanians which is close to Dardanians...

I can agree that J2 is due to albanisation of Greeks in the area....
and that I2a2 is due to albanisation of some population (Slavs, Vlachs,...?)...

language of Illyrians is thought to belong to Centum branch, while Albanians speak satem and Thracians were satem speaking...
I think this could be related to haplogroups J2 and E-V13...

E-V13 spread in south part of Asia minor and under influence of R1a became satem...
J2 is spread in north part of Asia minor and under influence of R1b it became centum...

J2 than gave centum speaking Greeks, while E-V13 gave: Dardanians who I believe spoke satem language perhaps similar to Albanian, and partly Thracians who were satem speakers...

Btw. J2 matches area with Doric languages (Epir, Peoloponessus and Macedonia..) pretty well... and I have already explained that I2a2 does as well...so Dorians could have been mix of J2 and I2a2...

Tosks probably have large portion of albanised Greek Epirotes which explains recent J2 admixture among Albanians... but perhaps also part or all of I2a2 admixture

both have happened recently, as this map clearly indicates...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

I find it interesting to find out whether Albanians culture and language is related to Dardanians or was it acquired by later arrival (e.g. refuges from Panonia led by Kuber) ... to know whether language of Albanians comes from Dardanians, I think there should be comparison between modern Greek, Aeolic Greek and modern Albanian...

Garrick
26-12-10, 13:27
yes, but being dominantly E-V13 they are not likely to be recent arrival.... thus, I think they are genetically mostly Dardanians in origin... Dardanians normally had no maritime terminology as they lived for long time (since fall of Troy) far away from sea....

note that in Serb medieval sources Albanians were named Arbanians which is close to Dardanians...

I can agree that J2 is due to albanisation of Greeks in the area....
and that I2a2 is due to albanisation of some population (Slavs, Vlachs,...?)...

language of Illyrians is thought to belong to Centum branch, while Albanians speak satem and Thracians were satem speaking...
I think this could be related to haplogroups J2 and E-V13...

E-V13 spread in south part of Asia minor and under influence of R1a became satem...
J2 is spread in north part of Asia minor and under influence of R1b it became centum...

J2 than gave centum speaking Greeks, while E-V13 gave: Dardanians who I believe spoke satem language perhaps similar to Albanian, and partly Thracians who were satem speakers...

Btw. J2 matches area with Doric languages (Epir, Peoloponessus and Macedonia..) pretty well... and I have already explained that I2a2 does as well...so Dorians could have been mix of J2 and I2a2...

Tosks probably have large portion of albanised Greek Epirotes which explains recent J2 admixture among Albanians... but perhaps also part or all of I2a2 admixture

both have happened recently, as this map clearly indicates...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

I find it interesting to find out whether Albanians culture and language is related to Dardanians or was it acquired by later arrival (e.g. refuges from Panonia led by Kuber) ... to know whether language of Albanians comes from Dardanians, I think there should be comparison between modern Greek, Aeolic Greek and modern Albanian...

how yes no
I think that your explanation is very logical, and there is the link between Aeolic Greeks, Illyrians and Albanian Tosks.

Also, ancient Macedonians are probably one of tribe Dorian Greeks (it has a lot in the literature about that). Maybe Dorian Greek is derived from J2 or mix J2 & I2. What about other old Greek tribes (possible explanations for haplogroups, languages...)?

It is interesting there are linguists who claim that Greek do not belong to the Indo-European languages. Perhaps due to the strong influence of the Phoenician. But if original Greek comes from some branches of early farmers the language can't be Indo-European.

Clearly, E1b1b probably belong to the Dardanians and Thracians.

But it does not mean that Aeolic Greeks, Illyrians, Dardanians and Thracians all spoke the same language, it is possible that these are different languages, which are similar to each other, as the root they are not Indo-European languages.

What is less known is the explanation of the origin of Dacians? Did they originally E1b1b or one of R branch or maybe I. If the original Dacians are E1b1b then it is possible that there is a connection between today's Albanians and area of southern Romania.

Shetop
26-12-10, 14:02
well, we cannot claim those 4 are completely from pre migration period... R1b could have been brought in by Goths and G2a by Sarmatians... and even J2 could have come via Caucasus.... we just can't conclude anything from data we have... when they go deeper in actual subbranches and their spread than it may be easier to draw conclusions...


Well they did go deeper in subbranches.

R1b in the Southeast Europe (including Romania) is mostly represented with older (or at least different) R1b subclades than the ones found in Western Europe including Germany. I think we discussed this already. If Germanic tribes had R1b they would bring R-U106 (like in Portugal) and this subclade has very low frequencies in Southeast Europe.

Than, G2a in Southeast Europe is the same as in Western Europe and we can't say Sarmatians settled so wide in Europe.

And about J2, it did come from the East, probably Anatolia, but it happened earlier, during the history unknown to us. There is no historical event which could possibly explain J2 in Southeast Europe including Italy.

Shetop
26-12-10, 14:34
What is less known is the explanation of the origin of Dacians? Did they originally E1b1b or one of R branch or maybe I. If the original Dacians are E1b1b then it is possible that there is a connection between today's Albanians and area of southern Romania.

I agree Dacians had some of Y-DNA the same as today's Albanians, but this connections is from the period before Common Era. If we talk particularly about Albanian E1b1b, it migrated mostly from Western and Central Balkans, after Slavs came.

If I correctly understood some of your previous posts you agree that I2a2 came to Balkans with Slavs? So if you say I2a2 wasn't in the Western Balkans before Slavs came and you also say E1b1b wasn't there also, than I would have to ask who was there?

how yes no 2
26-12-10, 19:05
I wonder again whether Illlyrians could have been I2a2

E-V13 was in Dalmatia l0ong time ago as it has large variance and low frequency there... however, this large variance of E-V13 in Dalmatia might be not about Illyrians but about previous inhabitants that are by many schoolars thought (based on presence of thracian toponyms) to be Thracians...

Ilyrians came from north and subdued Thracians living in Dalmatia...
so, Illyrians might have been not E-V13 but first wave of I2a2...

E-V13 dominant people are short, middle east, mediterranean in the way they look (I do not speak here about look of single person based on his Y-DNA group, as this person might have other haplogroups dominant in numerous lines that are not direct male line.. so I talk about average look of population with dominant E-V13), while Illyrians were tall, Dinaric people...

according to this map

http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/italy.jpg
http://www.mysteriousetruscans.com/map.html

the spread of Illyrians in Italy does match elevated I2a2 on Maciamo's map

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Maciamo
27-12-10, 10:49
I wonder again whether Illlyrians could have been I2a2

Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ? This haplogroup was present in the Illyrian region at least since the Mesolithic. But they surely also had a small percentage of E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Neolithic. The existence of the Illyrian tribe goes back at least to 4000 years before present. What one can wonder is whether they already had R1a before the Slavic migrations. It seems that the R1a in the Balkans is very ancient - possibly the only type of R1a that could pre-date the Indo-European migrations.

iapodos
27-12-10, 11:10
Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ? This haplogroup was present in the Illyrian region at least since the Mesolithic. But they surely also had a small percentage of E1b1b, G2a and J2 from the Neolithic. The existence of the Illyrian tribe goes back at least to 4000 years before present. What one can wonder is whether they already had R1a before the Slavic migrations. It seems that the R1a in the Balkans is very ancient - possibly the only type of R1a that could pre-date the Indo-European migrations.

The problem with I2a2 and Illyrians is that all today haplotypes of I2a2 which can be found in Dinaric Alps are all I2a2 Dinaric South, and I2a2 Dinaric South not only that it is the youngest clade among I2a2, but it is also very closely related among themselves, not to mention that its spread and position could be very easily be connected with Slavs. So, the question is, if there is some Illyrian I2a2 what clade should it be. If it was in Dinaric Alps before arrival of Slavs, at least it should be somehow distinguishable from I2a2 Dinaric South. And no one such haplotype till now, as far I know, has been found.
My opinion is that core population of Illyrians were R1a, of course with mixtures of other haplogroups.

Maciamo
27-12-10, 18:41
The problem with I2a2 and Illyrians is that all today haplotypes of I2a2 which can be found in Dinaric Alps are all I2a2 Dinaric South, and I2a2 Dinaric South not only that it is the youngest clade among I2a2, but it is also very closely related among themselves, not to mention that its spread and position could be very easily be connected with Slavs. So, the question is, if there is some Illyrian I2a2 what clade should it be. If it was in Dinaric Alps before arrival of Slavs, at least it should be somehow distinguishable from I2a2 Dinaric South. And no one such haplotype till now, as far I know, has been found.
My opinion is that core population of Illyrians were R1a, of course with mixtures of other haplogroups.

Estimating the age of haplogroups is, I believe, an extremely difficult and theoretical thing to do without ancient DNA to confirm the actual evolution of SNP's in the tree. One reason is that not every scientist agree even remotely on what mutation rate to use (Dienekes Pontikos is very vocal about this issue on his blog), so that estimate can be easily doubled or tripled in time (or reduced by as much) depending on whose mutation rate you choose. But the most troublesome of all issues is that mutations occur far more frequently in a large population with a high birth rate and high (infantile) death rate, like India, than in a society where people have only one or two children fairly late in life, like present-day Western countries.

So it could be that I2a2-South is indeed to young to be Mesolithic in origin. But it could just as well be that the population of the Dinaric Alps was generally sparse over the last 10,000 years, so that their mutation rate was much slower than the world average. I think this is also why haplogroup I1 had been mistakenly judged to be so young (some claim as little as 4500 years). Hunter-gather societies had low population, with low birth rates, and they happen to coincide with haplogroups that look young (I1, I2b, I2a2), but probably aren't.

Shetop
27-12-10, 19:43
Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ?.

What about Magna Grecia?
How come regions in Italy settled by Greeks do not have same ratio E-V13/I2a2 as it is in Greece (I2a2 is almost completely absent in South and Central Italy)?

Maciamo
27-12-10, 19:49
What about Magna Grecia?
How come regions in Italy settled by Greeks do not have same ratio E-V13/I2a2 as it is in Greece?

Three reasons :

1) Each part of Greece has quite different proportions of haplogroups.

2) Greek colonists would have mixed to some extend with the previous inhabitants of southern Italy (if not immediately, at least once all Italy was unified under Roman rule, and ever since then).

3) Haplogroup frequencies tend to vary naturally over time.

Shetop
27-12-10, 20:03
From my point of view - arguments against indigenous I2a2 in the Balkans are stronger enough than those against I2a2 migrating from Ukraine.

Actually I haven't read any serious arguments against recent arrival of I2a2.

iapodos
27-12-10, 21:20
From my point of view - arguments against indigenous I2a2 in the Balkans are stronger enough than those against I2a2 migrating from Ukraine.

Actually I haven't read any serious arguments against recent arrival of I2a2.

Definetely.
Even if you look spread of I2a2 in Greece with high concentration in Macedonia and highspot on Peloponesus, than in northwestern Bulgaria (talking about I2a2 Dinaric North) it clearly corespond with settlements of various Slavic tribes: Velegeziti, Milinzi, Jezerci in the so called 6th century Sclavinias.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Macodnian_Sklavinia.png

how yes no 2
28-12-10, 14:40
Why wouldn't they have been I2a2 ? This haplogroup was present in the Illyrian region at least since the Mesolithic.

well, how can Illyrian language go completelly out of use in a group that is genetically extremelly homogeneous and lives in isolated mountain areas as people from Herzegovina do... that is just very difficult to explain.. in all languages where population went through large cultural and language shifts there are layers and layers of previous language, but I donnot think that is the case for Herzegovina...in fact, when Serb language reformer Vuk Stefanovic Karadzic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Stefanovi%C4%87_Karad%C5%BEi%C4%87) was creating 100% phonetic alphabet, and grammar rules for Serbian literature language, he used language spoken in Herzegovina as basis, as he concluded that it is the area where most pure Serbian language is spoken...

to compare, there are still Vlach villages scattered over Balkan, who kept their language (that originates from times of Roman empire) despite them being scattered around... now if they kept complete language, how come that people in Herzegovina, who are grouped in single place and genetically very homogeneous, did not keep anything from their language?

I find that hard to believe....

So, in my opinion, either I2a2 came mostly with Slavs, or previous people did already speak similar or in fact the same language...

btw. Albania is full with Slavic toponyms...one could argue that Slavs have massively settled in that land as well, but as far as I remember there is an issue that when trying to connect Albanian language related toponyms to the ones of ancient world, it goes only via Slavic intermediary form...

on other hand, some toponyms in south Serbia and Macedonia seems to have Albanian root....

so, I find it possible that Albanians origin from Dardanians, and south Slavic people from Illyrians....
in fact, one may conclude that also based on this:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s320/Ystrclusters.png

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html)

which shows that south Slavs cluster with Romanians, east and west Hungary and central Ukraine...
if we look at cluster and try to figure out possible source of this spread, south part of central Ukraine seems logical... and exactly there we find Vinnitsya area which in fact likely means area of Veneti...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/41/Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_Oblast_Wynnyzja.pn g/250px-Map_of_Ukraine_political_simple_Oblast_Wynnyzja.pn g
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_Oblast (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vinnytsia_Oblast)

Veneti are by many scholars thought to be same as Illyrians...

and when Jordanes writes of early Slavs he tells that they are of Veneti race...



Hermanaric also took arms against the Venethi. This people, though despised in war, was strong in numbers and tried to resist him. But a multitude of cowards is of no avail, particularly when God permits an armed multitude to attack them. These people, as we started to say at the beginning of our account or catalogue of nations, though off-shoots from one stock, have now three names, that is, Venethi, Antes and Sclaveni.




In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

iapodos
28-12-10, 15:09
It is very often forgotten that according to historical sources region of Dalmatia, except some coastal cities were practically deserted land in 7th century. It is also very well documented with archeological facts, all Byzantine cities stayed empty for centuries and there were no continuity in human settlements of that period. Some isolate group of domestic population remains in mountains but their number were symbolic.
So, the first settlement of Slavs on Balkan from 6th century correspond with I2a2 Din North. Settlement of Serbs in 7th century in the region of Dalmatia fully corespond with I2a2 Dinaric South.
There is a legend among Serbs in Herzegovina that they came on the land of Greeks (read Byzantine) after Greeks left their homes because snow fall on Saint Peter's day,12th of July. And all remnants of previous fortifications, cemetaries were reffered as greek cemetary, greek church or greek city. So the national legend also said they came on deserted land.

how yes no 2
28-12-10, 15:30
There is a legend among Serbs in Herzegovina that they came on the land of Greeks (read Byzantine) after Greeks left their homes because snow fall on Saint Peter's day,12th of July.

this sounds as volcanic winter...
but only one in that time frame seems to have been in year 535/536



The Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) historian Procopius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procopius) recorded of 536, in his report on the wars with the Vandals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vandals), "during this year a most dread portent took place. For the sun gave forth its light without brightness...and it seemed exceedingly like the sun in eclipse, for the beams it shed were not clear."[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536#cite_not e-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536#cite_not e-4)

The Gaelic Irish Annals (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Annals)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536#cite_not e-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536#cite_not e-6) record the following:

"A failure of bread in the year 536 AD"—The Annals of Ulster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_of_Ulster)
"A failure of bread from the years 536–539 AD"—The Annals of Inisfallen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Annals_of_Inisfallen)


Further phenomena reported by a number of independent contemporary sources:
Low temperatures, even snow during the summer (snow reportedly fell in August in China, which postponed the harvest there)[8]
Crop failures[9]
"A dense, dry fog" in the Mideast, China, and Europe[8]
Drought in Peru, which affected the Moche culture[8][10]



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extreme_weather_events_of_535%E2%80%93536

Byzantium defetead Vandals in 536. and imediatelly attacked Ostrogothic kingdom in south Italy...

so, story may relate to settlement of Goths in Herzegovina but is one century to early to relate to settlement of Serbs....

though, there is priest of Duklja who in his chronicle (13th century) claims that south Slavs are mostly Goths with some later Slavic admixture...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_the_Priest_of_Duklja

as far as I remember, he claims that they called mountain areas near the sea Croatia (Montenegro was red (=south) Croatia), while Bosnia and Raska were named Serbia... in fact, after reading his words one easily comes to impression that nations of Serbs and Croats came into existance after Gothic empire was split between two brothers one ruling Serbia (Raska nad Bosnia) and other ruling Croatia (Dalmatia and Montenegro)... he does enlist all the kings from arival of Goths on Balkan, and also some data about relevant historic events...

He does say that Goths were wild, agressive people, while later not populous admixture of Slavs were good people... he also claims that afer some time very numerous Bulgarian people settled in east of the empire, and that those people were speaking the same language

iapodos
28-12-10, 18:51
Actually Goths were already for a long period in Dalmatia when the dramatic climate change in 536. occur, but what is interesting is fact that this year coincide with unsuccessfull Byzantine effort to return Dalmatia inland into its own domininon. The campaign was raid under the comand of Mundus, Byzantine military chief, Gepid by origin who were killed in that war. It could be a case that most of Greeks(Romans) left Dalmatia in that year not because snow in July but because of bloody Gothic wars in that region. It is worth of mentioning a great plague from 542. and begining of Byzantine-Persian wars. It all dramaticaly depopulated not only Dalmatia, but also Italy. In Italy for example populatian dropped from 7 million to 2.5 milion. In 561 first group of Slavs were entering the Balkan teritory of Empire. They found land in ruins and devastated. Colonization began.

how yes no 2
28-12-10, 19:32
Actually Goths were already for a long period in Dalmatia when the dramatic climate change in 536. occur, but what is interesting is fact that this year coincide with unsuccessfull Byzantine effort to return Dalmatia inland into its own domininon.

Goths were in Dalmatia, but if the legend you told is based on truth than it could be the case that they only settled (east) Herzegovina, from where the legend is, after year 536...


The campaign was raid under the comand of Mundus, Byzantine military chief, Gepid by origin who were killed in that war. It could be a case that most of Greeks(Romans) left Dalmatia in that year not because snow in July but because of bloody Gothic wars in that region.

exactly...
but Serbs/Slavs are not yet there at that time... so they are not the original source of the story...

somehow story of settlement in land abandoned by Greeks got mixed up after new settlers joined Goth settlers... lol, Goth settlers wanted to beautify the self-image they presented to new Slavic settlers, so they said Greeks have gone when there was winter in summer as it was too cold for them...

most of I1 in Balkan can easily be Gothic in origin, and there is lot of it...
I2a2 is not likely to be Gothic as language shift would not happened in I2a2 dominant areas when less populous R1a people would enter in small numbers into wild and aggressive I2a2 dominant areas... and it is not likely that Ostrogoths were Slavic speaking when they arrived...

though I have to admit that Goths could explain fairly well how Serbs/Croats, east and west Hungarians, Romanians and central Ukrainians can be same cluster.....

however, I think (Pannonian /) Illyrian / Veneti / Sarmatian link is more plausible explanation for the spread of I2a2 as those tribes existed for centuries in relevant areas, while Goths were in Balkans in historically relatively short period in which lot of wars occurred.....


It is worth of mentioning a great plague from 542. and begining of Byzantine-Persian wars. It all dramaticaly depopulated not only Dalmatia, but also Italy. In Italy for example populatian dropped from 7 million to 2.5 milion. In 561 first group of Slavs were entering the Balkan teritory of Empire. They found land in ruins and devastated. Colonization began.

big epidermic of plaque could be partially consequence of famine that lasted for years which did likely reduce capabilities of immune system of most people...

arrival of Slavs in 561? that early? are you sure?...

Garrick
28-12-10, 21:30
I agree Dacians had some of Y-DNA the same as today's Albanians, but this connections is from the period before Common Era. If we talk particularly about Albanian E1b1b, it migrated mostly from Western and Central Balkans, after Slavs came.

If I correctly understood some of your previous posts you agree that I2a2 came to Balkans with Slavs? So if you say I2a2 wasn't in the Western Balkans before Slavs came and you also say E1b1b wasn't there also, than I would have to ask who was there?


We can read, for example, at Wiik (2008):

"About 25 kya (25000 years ago) one branch of Clan R1, Clan R1b, reached Iberia and the Atlantic Coast, and somewhat later Clan R1a branched from R1 and became common in the present-day Ukraine.

About 25 kya the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sent another branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans, and a new sub-Clan I emerged."


It means that probably first male inhabitants of Balkan were they who belonged I haplogroup, although it is possible even at that time or later, clans R1a and/or R1b have also been able to be in some areas of the Balkans.


For now, we do not know who were these first the members of clan I.

What we can now conclude from the existing haplogroup first inhabitants of the Balkans were the holders of R1a haplogroup.

It is probably that (hypothesis):

the men from the Vinca civilization belonged R1a

which of course researching can prove whether the hypothesis is correct or no and it should research

but if it is no true alternative can only be that Vincans belonged to a branch I.

iapodos
28-12-10, 22:16
Goths were in Dalmatia, but if the legend you told is based on truth than it could be the case that they only settled (east) Herzegovina, from where the legend is, after year 536...

exactly...
but Serbs/Slavs are not yet there at that time... so they are not the original source of the story...

arrival of Slavs in 561? that early? are you sure?...

There were Slavs which definetely came before Serbs. Serbs came in 7th century and were parth of totally different migration. But much before the Serbs various Slavic tribes poured into Balkan provinces . At that tim Goths have already gone.This is the generation of arriving Slavs which could remember the dramatic climatic change in 536. and transfer it to Serbs which came around 620. The Serbs as I think were predominantly I2a2 Dinaric South and they settled among already settled Slavs which were predominantly I2a2 Dinaric North. Today, according to newest study there is about one third of North haplotypes among Serbs and Montenegrines and two third South haplotypes.

This is from wikipedia:

In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace and Illyricum, pillaging cities and settling down.[6] By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a Macedonian Sclavinia.[7] As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579.[8] Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites.[9] By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese, Attica, Epirus, leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591-605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (Main article: Maurice's Balkan campaigns).

LeBrok
29-12-10, 06:45
Nice pieces of history iapodos, thanks.

Is there a scientific paper about the depopulation of central Europe around 500s? I was always wandering what the heck happened?
First I was blaming Attila the Hun, but I guess he was a bit sooner around. He could have started it but wasn't a main cause.
Was it the constant movement of nations from east, every generation killing more than was being born?
Was this the cooling period in Northern Hemisphere, intensified by volcanic activity? Super winters, cold summers?
Was this a big plague? Or all of it together finished 90% of inhabitants?
Never managed finding anything concrete about this depopulation. Maybe the scientific jury is still in.

Interesting is that in many Slavic legends the forefathers are walking around leading their tribes, finding empty land, and they settle it. The stories don't tell about conquering the land, and great battles.

iapodos
29-12-10, 13:20
Nice pieces of history iapodos, thanks.
Is there a scientific paper about the depopulation of central Europe around 500s? I was always wandering what the heck happened?
First I was blaming Attila the Hun, but I guess he was a bit sooner around. He could have started it but wasn't a main cause.
Was it the constant movement of nations from east, every generation killing more than was being born?
Was this the cooling period in Northern Hemisphere, intensified by volcanic activity? Super winters, cold summers?
Was this a big plague? Or all of it together finished 90% of inhabitants?
Never managed finding anything concrete about this depopulation. Maybe the scientific jury is still in.
Interesting is that in many Slavic legends the forefathers are walking around leading their tribes, finding empty land, and they settle it. The stories don't tell about conquering the land, and great battles.
I don't know for previous periods, but depopulation of 6th century is easy to understand which way happened:
Till 533. it was quite stabile situation. Western part of Balkan (Dalmatia) was under Goths in Ostrogothic kingdom. Actually Ostrogothic kingdom under Theodoric was western part of Roman Empire with Gothic elite as ruling caste. The population in Dalmatia and Italy was still Roman with of course some Germanic minorities. Central part of Balkan was under direct Roman rule, as the eastern one.
535- Justinian I attacks Goths and Gothic Roman wars began
536- dramatic climatic change, little ice age
541. great plague, killing 40 to 50% populatian of Roman Empire
554- Romans finally defeated Goths, end of Roman Gothic war
558.- Avars came to Panonia for first time, allied with Slavs their making incursions in Dalmatia province
572.- Beginning of Roman Persian wars, most of Byzantine military moved to east leaving Balkan provinces without protection
577.-Slavs are already in Balkan provinces, they reach as far to Peloponesus
586.- Slavs were already settled from Danube to Peloponesus, Empire lost all Balkan inland
So this is a short history of Balkan in the second half of 6th century. It is obvious that previous Roman (Greek) population was already devastated with famine, plague, wars especially in Dalmatia which was always less protected part of Empire and more exposed to the intervention from northern barbarians.
Climatic change in 536. were recorded throughout Europe, and as we see real decline of Roman (Greek) power began with that year. Is it possible that Serbian legend about Greeks who leave the country because snow fall in July was an echo of some true story, story about crash of Roman Empire in Balkan and almost total change of its population.

Maciamo
06-08-11, 15:05
I have made substantial changes to the map, increasing the percentage of E1b1b in France, Southwest Germany, Switzerland and Central Italy, and deleting parts of Ireland, Scotland and Wales where E1b1b has never been found.

zanipolo
06-08-11, 23:19
I have made substantial changes to the map, increasing the percentage of E1b1b in France, Southwest Germany, Switzerland and Central Italy, and deleting parts of Ireland, Scotland and Wales where E1b1b has never been found.

Interesting that the cornish celts who migrated to brittany france are empty of this marker

Dorianfinder
04-10-11, 17:16
An old but well integrated study with history and haplogroup E information.

http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.pdf

hawklutz
09-01-12, 10:59
Carpatho-Rusyn DNA Project on FTDNA encompassing mountainous regions of Poland, Slovakia and Ukraine:
E1-24,4%
I1-5,8%
I2a-14%
I2b-1,1%
J2-2,3%
N1-1,1%
R1a-39,5%
R1a1a1g(M458+)-8,1%
R1a1a1g2(L260+)-8,1%
R1b-10,5%
R2-1,1%

Interesting enough, there are almost no E1b1b1 in Zamagurie region DNA Project, though there are a lot of J2(14%).

PaschalisB
18-01-12, 15:43
E-V13 dominant people are short, middle east, mediterranean in the way they look (I do not speak here about look of single person based on his Y-DNA group, as this person might have other haplogroups dominant in numerous lines that are not direct male line.. so I talk about average look of population with dominant E-V13), while Illyrians were tall, Dinaric people...


Any scientific source that a populaton with dominant E-V13 looks like this?

MOESAN
18-01-12, 20:22
hello!
questions about aspects of this topic as discussed by other members:
- for France, the distributions are very unsure even if we can imagine that E1 as a whole is very seldom in Brittany - I though before (I'm no mor sure of nothing waiting for more data) that Y-E1 was a part of the demic propagation of agriculture along the Danube river to South Germany and Eastern-Northern France, mixed with other S-E HGs - I wait more data for LBK for example - but nevertheless I find very heavy the percentages of the map for Y-E1 in France ?
- phenotypes for Y-E1: hard to decide - I guess a southern type, dark - but which one? there are more than a type among the so diverses so called 'mediterranean phenotypes' - all mediterranean types are not small statured (in Near-East there are tall enough dolichocephalic eurafrican people) and keep in mind true mediterranean people, whatever the subtype, are not little fat or sturdy mesocephalic people - they are light bodied people by nature (it 's true we know that diet can change the body aspect, see the noble Saudi Arabs: they are fat very often but their skeletons are light and muscles too - what I keep in mind in that they ere the LAST ligneages come out from Eastern Africa, where people are middle height (not small) and slender
- for Y-I2a1b North and South I believe we are going fast and far when giving them a too separate distribution at the beginning: do not forget they are "brothers"
let's pray the DNA surveys god to have more data quickly!

spongetaro
18-01-12, 21:14
I'd like to have Maciamo opinion on haplogroup E in Ile de France. Which subclades of E1b prevail there? Is there any historical reasons for the high frequency of E1b in île de France? Why is there more E1b in Ile de France than in Marseille area?

PaschalisB
18-01-12, 22:26
I'd like to have Maciamo opinion on haplogroup E in Ile de France. Which subclades of E1b prevail there? Is there any historical reasons for the high frequency of E1b in île de France? Why is there more E1b in Ile de France than in Marseille area?

Maybe because of the big number of people with a distant or recent maghrebian origin?

MOESAN
21-01-12, 23:55
Maybe because of the big number of people with a distant or recent maghrebian origin?

The problem isthat in France the origin of samples members are not verified too deeply - at the Neolithic impact of Near-Easterners (J2/E1) and Caucasic People (G2/J2) would have been strong enough (30% ?) in le-de-France but I find it curious that this people could have stayed there 5000-6000 years without being overflowed or diluted by other historic newcomers - the kind of E2 is a problem too: which? the North-West-African one or the Near-Eastern-Balkanic one? so the problem of sampling is still the probable explication of these high (too high) percentages-

noUseForAname
26-09-14, 08:08
how yes no
You're right, it is hard to say.

If we read Kalevy Week (2008) about Balkan: "Clans E3b, J and G and represent the Early Farmers."

and author says that:

"About 25 kya (25000 years) the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sent another branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans, and a new sub-Clan I emerged."

"Europe experienced a cooling climate and the onset of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM)."

"About 10 kya (10000 years) the farmers of the Middle East, representing African Clan E (its sub-clan E3b) and two sub-clans of F (the “Caucasian” Clan G and the “Near Eastern” Clan J), spread to Anatolia and further to Greece and the Mediterranean coast."

"Clans I, E3b, J, and G all originate from the Middle East, but only E3b, J, and G (not I) belong to the group of “Early Farmers.”

"Clan I had spread into Europe before the emergence of effective domestication of wild plants and animals (i.e. the beginning of agriculture and cattle raising) in the Middle East."

"Clan I represents the “Old Europeans”."

...

I think that we can link Dacians, Thracians, Greeks and Illyrians with early farmers.

And linguistic researchs can be helpful.

For example Greek language can be linked with J2 and old Romanian and Albanian language can be linked with E1b1b.

Today the Romanian language is a Latinized but even so, between Romanian and Albanian there are many similarities.

There are opinions that Albanians originate from one of part Dacians, and although they are close to the Illyrians and the ancient Greeks, not originate from them.

Some consider that today's Albanian population is similar population of Peloponnese and that somebody can make connections Peloponnese-Epirus-Albania.

The third opinion is that Albanians come from Illyrians directly.

The problem with the second opinion is the difference in language between today's Greek and Albanian, although of course it is possible to exist different versions of why this was so (but I do not want speculate now).

The problem with the third opinion is that in today's Albanian has very few words related to the sea, but Illyrian language certainly had to have sea words because the Illyrians inhabited the Adriatic coast.

It is theoretically possible that today's Albanians are originally Dacians (from some mountainous areas today's Romania), but it would mean that the original Dacians are E1b1b.

I have some hypotheses regarding the ethnic Albanians...

1: I may hypothesize that Ancient Greeks and Ancient Macedonia (taking into account the ethnic majority) were comprised by current ethnic Albanians and Hellenic people
2: I may hypothesize based on the DNA facts data below that “Illyrians are direct descendants of I2a haplogroup.
3: I may also hypothesize (based on DNA data and the current locations of modern Albanians and Greeks) that current modern Greeks are not the only descendants of Ancient Greeks but it comprises of other ancient tribes (see below 1 to 7).
4: I may also hypothesize that current ethnic Albanians are neither the descendants of: Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, Carpians (Carpathian) (and at that time there were no Greeks yet), but rather NATIVE people with the DNA of E-V13 which was pre Illyrian, Thracian, Dacian, Carpian (Carpathian) and Ancient Greek and Macedonian.

If we carefully look at the map and the highest percentages of E-V13, We can see that on the most areas where current ethnic Albanians live E-V13 has its highest percentages, Kosovo 47.5%, Albanians from Macedonia 39.1%, south Greece 43.5% (were ethnic Albanians called Arvanitas or Arberesh live), north Greece 35.4%, Arvanitas and Peloponnese area 47%% (it is known that Arvanitas lived in Peloponnese area too), and Albania with 27.5%. While the rest of the Greece (were traditionally is known that no Albanians live there) as of those from Crete have only 8.8%, Thrace 19%, and the rest of Greece overall, ethnic Greeks of today have only 19%, it also shows that they are much more Slavicized than Albanians with R1a 16% and I2a of 19%. In addition, based on a map shown with a percentage of E-V13, south Serbia (were ethnic Albanians live) has higher percentage of E-V13, and south east and north east part of Montenegro (were ethnic Albanians live) have also higher percentage.

1: Arvanitas based on Southwest Greece (Arberesh, who spoke a dialect of the Albanian language). It is also argued that Arvanitas were also on Peloponnese area of Greece.
2: Epirus (Where Gjergj Kastrioti Skanderbeg declared that he is a descendant of Epirus king of Pyrrhus),
3: Dardania (current Kosovo)
4: Current Albania
5: West (current) Macedonia.
6: the Very South of current Serbia
7: South East and north East part of current Montenegro

E-V13 is 10,000 years old, then we can argue that current ethnic Albanians are NATIVE inhabitants of Europe, it should be interested to see what DNA would the kings of Ancient Greeks have.
This also verifies why Greek and Albanian language is 5000 years old as argued in the recent study.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?ref=science&module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Aw&_r=2&

It is argued that relatively small populations and the very non mixed of...Saami (Norway, Sweden, finish), Sardinians (Sardinia, very south of Mediterranean Dalmatia), Basques (North Spain) and Kosovar Albanians (Republic of Kosovo) are the very NATIVES of the European region.
Please refer to what native Saami, Sardinians, Basques and Kosovar Albanians should look alike
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinian_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basque_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sami_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians_in_Kosovo

Autosomal DNA[edit]
Analysis of autosomal DNA, which analyses all genetic components has revealed that few genetic discontinuities exist in European populations, apart from certain outliers such as Saami, Sardinians, Basques and Kosovar Albanians. They found that Albanians, on the one hand, have a high amount of identity by descent sharing, suggesting that both Albanians from Albania and Kosovo derived from a relatively small population that expanded recently and rapidly in the last 1,500 years. On the other hand, they are not wholly isolated or endogamous, as they share a significant amount of descent with nearby Macedonian, Greek and Italian populations.[103]The recent growth is particularly evident in Kosovar Albanians, which show particularly high levels of homogeneity, in contrast to the diversity otherwise found in other Balkan populations.[104]
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3815v1.pdf
Novembre J. et al. (2008) Genes mirror geography within Europe, Nature doi:10.1038/nature07331

Maciamo
26-09-14, 18:48
I'd like to have Maciamo opinion on haplogroup E in Ile de France. Which subclades of E1b prevail there? Is there any historical reasons for the high frequency of E1b in île de France? Why is there more E1b in Ile de France than in Marseille area?

There is actually a wide diversity of E1b1b subclades in IDF : V13, M123, M81... The sample size is small though, so I wouldn't make too much of it until we have at least 500 samples.