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Garrick
10-01-11, 22:39
Berber languages are quite suitable for comparison with the Albanian because among the Berbers E haplogroup (similar subgroup as Albanians) is prevalent,they belong to North Africa and have preserved their distinctiveness despite the influence of Arabic and French.

I give the example of comparing Albanian words with languages Berbers of Morocco and Algeria (first part) and the language of the Tuareg (part two), the Tuareg language seems more suitable because it had less Arab and French influence, due to the greater isolation of the population.

It is worth exploring, and non-Arab languages, Somalia, Sudan and Egypt.


English, Berbers, Albanian


1. Tamazight and Taqbaylit

say (eng.), timena (berb.), them (alb.)

my (eng.), inu (berb.), im, ime (alb.)

we (eng.), nekni (berb.), ne (alb.)

than (eng.), zi (berb.), se (alb.)

meat (eng.), aksum (berb.), ushqim (alb.) (q no pronounciation in English, as soft ch)

fat (eng.), lidam (berb.), dhjam (alb.)

father (eng.), baba (berb.), baba (alb

thread (eng.), ifili, ifilu (berb.), fill (alb.) (ll pronounced as english l)

elephant (eng.), ifil (berb.), fil (alb.) (l no pronounciation in English, as ly)



2. Tamasheq

black (eng.), әzzәf (berb.), e zezë (alb.) (ë pronounced as english ә, the: δә)

do (eng.), ja (berb.), a (alb.)

rotate (eng.), kәrukәr (berb.), qarkulloj (alb.)

boast (eng.), baraj (berb.), mburrje (alb.)

want (eng.), durhәn (berb.), dua (alb.)

carry (eng.), babb (berb.), mbaj (alb.)

eat (eng.), әkshen (berb.), ushqehem (alb.)

fly (eng.), ffurrәt (berb.), fluturoj (alb.)

health (eng.), sehet (berb.), shëndet (alb.)

how yes no 2
11-01-11, 01:40
hm, this is new refreshing idea that maybe it is possible to partially reconstruct vocabularies of primary haplogroups...sounds interesting!!

iapodos
11-01-11, 02:18
Albanian national costume from Northern Albania

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_-xP7ZrVCwHA/SOfueMd91WI/AAAAAAAABWw/LH_Ggh66FvY/super-FrancBaronNopcaveshurmekostumshqiptarteMalesis.jpg

and Berber costume

http://i45.tinypic.com/293aomd.jpg

Elias2
11-01-11, 03:22
I think the similarities in dress attribute to the arabic influences of the two.

Garrick
11-01-11, 20:36
I think the similarities in dress attribute to the arabic influences of the two.

No, it is the traditional costume Tuareg and Albanian people.

This clothing is not related to religion or Arab influence, and later, it was worn by both the Christians and animists also.

You can read:

en.wikipideia.org/wiki/Tagelmust

"The tagelmust is worn only by adult males, and only taken off in the presence of close family."

Only Tuareg and Albanian men covered the head and face in pre-Islamic period, not women!

Shetop
12-01-11, 00:39
Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.

how yes no 2
12-01-11, 01:15
Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.

Do not forget that all numbers about age of haplogroups are just very rough and ad-hoc estimations based on a model that cannot be verified in reality ....

so, the numbers can easily be several times off...

Maciamo
12-01-11, 09:38
Thanks for posting this, Garrick. It looks like Albanian language might be a hybrid of Indo-European and pre-IE. The pre-IE component surely comprises words from some Mesolithic/Neolithic North African language of the Afroasiatic family. The distribution of Afroasiatic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages) matches almost perfectly that of haplogroup E1b1b in Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29).

There are theories that Albanians descend from the Egyptians. Obviously this is true to some extent, considering that haplogroup E1b1b came to Europe via Egypt. Rather than going along the coast of the Levant and Anatolia, Neolithic E1b1b settlers could have travelled by sea and crossed the Mediterranean straight from Egypt to Greece/Albania. However it happened, the Neolithic cultures of the Balkans (often referred to as "Old Europe") display some strong affinities (pottery, villages) with those of North and North-East Africa.

Garrick
13-01-11, 21:26
Thanks for posting this, Garrick. It looks like Albanian language might be a hybrid of Indo-European and pre-IE. The pre-IE component surely comprises words from some Mesolithic/Neolithic North African language of the Afroasiatic family. The distribution of Afroasiatic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages) matches almost perfectly that of haplogroup E1b1b in Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_%28Y-DNA%29).

There are theories that Albanians descend from the Egyptians. Obviously this is true to some extent, considering that haplogroup E1b1b came to Europe via Egypt. Rather than going along the coast of the Levant and Anatolia, Neolithic E1b1b settlers could have travelled by sea and crossed the Mediterranean straight from Egypt to Greece/Albania. However it happened, the Neolithic cultures of the Balkans (often referred to as "Old Europe") display some strong affinities (pottery, villages) with those of North and North-East Africa.

Maciamo
I knew Albanians who claimed that their roots are Egyptian/African. Albanian is also true took words from Latin, Greek, Serbian and other European languages but it is possible that their basic language is the AfroAsiatic language.

Researchers had long puzzled where it comes from the word Dardania. With knowledge of haplogroup, and the fact that the Albanians and the Berbers are of the same origin, and the Berbers have preserved their language (and dialects):

maybe the root word Dardania is discovered.

In the eastern half oh the Sudan, the common word (usually classed as Arabic) for a country or tribal area is Dar. The word is however nor an Arabic word really, though adopted and used by Arabs as such. It is pre-Arab (ie Berber word) for an "encampment," and from this meaning of "camp," Dar or Tar, with its variant Dala, acquired in many parts of the Sudan and the Sahara meaning "hill," since camps were frequently on a hill or elevated ground.

"The Tuareg Veil"
H. R. Palmer, C. M. S., C. B. E.
www.jstor/pss/1783318 (http://www.jstor/pss/1783318)

Garrick
15-01-11, 13:35
Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.

It is estimated that these two lines had split around 20000 years ago. It would be a miracle if language similarities survived based on genetic relation.
Everything becomes even harder with E-V13 TMRCA estimated to around 11500 years ago.

Moroccan Arabs have significant E1b1b1a, more than Berbers and it makes them closer to Albanians, but they are also very distant.

Cruciani et al (2007) estimated it but other researchers placed much closer. You can read (source: Wikipedia):

Battaglia et al. (2008) describe Egypt as "a hub for the distribution of the various geographically localized M78-related sub-clades" and, based on archaeological data, they propose that the point of origin of E-M78 (as opposed to later dispersals from Egypt) may have been in a refugium which "existed on the border of present-day Sudan and Egypt, near Lake Nubia, until the onset of a humid phase around 8500 BC. The northward-moving rainfall belts during this period could have also spurred a rapid migration of Mesolithic foragers northwards in Africa, the Levant and ultimately onwards to Asia Minor and Europe, where they each eventually differentiated into their regionally distinctive branches". Towards the south, Hassan et al. (2008) also explain evidence that some subclades of E-M78, specifically E-V12 and E-22, "might have been brought to Sudan from North Africa after the progressive desertification of the Sahara around 6,000-8,000 years ago".

These numbers higlighted by Battaglia and Hassan are, I think, a lot more realistic. This period can also be connected with the creation of specific language groups within the Afro-Asian language family, which I will set the following posts.

These estimated years say to us more important things. This means that the E holders arrived to the Europe, Balkans much later than 10,000 years BC, perhaps before 6,000 years ago or 4,000 years or more later.

It has researchers also who dispute the thesis that the E carriers can be classified into Early farmers who, together with J and G carriers came to the Balkans (according to them only J & G remain Early farmers), in each case the E carriers came alone from Africa to Balkans rather than in pairs with J & G carriers.

sturmgewehr
15-01-11, 13:45
This thread is as stupid as it can get.

First of all a couple of most eminent linguist have studied the Albanian language and have clearly classified it as an Indo European Language.

You have to either be stupid or Illiterate to think there is a connection between Berber Languages and Albanian Language.

First of all Berber Language is an Afro Asiatic Language also Heavily Arabized.

The guy wanting to prove the relation between berber Language and Albanian language is clearly on some kind of funny pills.

there is 22 - 25% E - V13 Haplogroup Amongst Albanians and so there is 20 - 22% Haplogroup E amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Serbs even have the Somalian Haplogroup T as high as 7%.

First of All the Albanian and Balkan E1b1b has nothing to do with the Moroccan E1b1b, the Balkan Albanian E1b1b is also called E V13 whereas the Berber one is called E M81, these haplogroups split from each other 20 000 Years ago even more.

If Albanians and Montenegrians are Related to Morrocans then clearly Polish and Russian people are Related to Siberian Brahami Indians which are high in R1a.

Secondly Haplogroup E V13 is Autochtonmous European it is even older than R1b and R1a in the Balkans, Haplogroup E V13 is the Genetic Marker of Neolithic Farmers which flooded the Balkans and Europe 10 000 - 15 000 Years ago.

If it wasn't for Haplogroup E V13 the Paleolithic Cave People and Carriers of I1b would be living in Caves.

Anyways this thread is stupid so here are my 2 cents :)

sturmgewehr
15-01-11, 13:48
Edit: Hindukush Brahami Indians.

I was thinking of some SIberian Tribes that are of Mongolic Origin who carry more than 80% R1a.

Shetop
15-01-11, 14:45
This is from Steven Bird based on Mirabal,Varljen haplotypes:


With regard to Montenegro, the preliminary evidence seems to indicate that the population is twice the age (in generations) of any other known V13 population anywhere. Importantly, this is without verification of SNPs, so it is not 100% certain that all of these HT's are V13 or even M35. Athey's predictor does call them E-M35 (or a subclade thereof) with a very high likelihood score (90+%) in nearly all cases, however. If they are M35, there is also a better than 90% chance that the ht is V13, just based on the neighboring populations. The other reasonable assumption that can be made is that the remaining ht's are M78*, again just based on their geographic neighbors and their SNP tested haplotype profiles.

Twice the age means something like 2x4000 years.

I really can't suppose when did E-V13 come to Europe.
From my point of view Y-DNA map of Europe was significantly different not so long ago, 1800 years before present. When someone realises recent and large migrations actually happened then one of the conclusions is - it is very hard to assume what was happening before 500 BC.

One more example - just a couple of weeks ago Klyosov wrote that western Slavic R1a migrated from the regions around Russian western borders towards Poland only 2300 years ago.
I'm not taking this for a fact but I believe it is very close to reality.

And E-V13 is I believe harder to understand than previous example.

Garrick
15-01-11, 18:46
This thread is as stupid as it can get.

First of all a couple of most eminent linguist have studied the Albanian language and have clearly classified it as an Indo European Language.

You have to either be stupid or Illiterate to think there is a connection between Berber Languages and Albanian Language.

First of all Berber Language is an Afro Asiatic Language also Heavily Arabized.

The guy wanting to prove the relation between berber Language and Albanian language is clearly on some kind of funny pills.

there is 22 - 25% E - V13 Haplogroup Amongst Albanians and so there is 20 - 22% Haplogroup E amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Serbs even have the Somalian Haplogroup T as high as 7%.

First of All the Albanian and Balkan E1b1b has nothing to do with the Moroccan E1b1b, the Balkan Albanian E1b1b is also called E V13 whereas the Berber one is called E M81, these haplogroups split from each other 20 000 Years ago even more.

If Albanians and Montenegrians are Related to Morrocans then clearly Polish and Russian people are Related to Siberian Brahami Indians which are high in R1a.

Secondly Haplogroup E V13 is Autochtonmous European it is even older than R1b and R1a in the Balkans, Haplogroup E V13 is the Genetic Marker of Neolithic Farmers which flooded the Balkans and Europe 10 000 - 15 000 Years ago.

If it wasn't for Haplogroup E V13 the Paleolithic Cave People and Carriers of I1b would be living in Caves.

Anyways this thread is stupid so here are my 2 cents :)

What are you talking about that stupid someone can interpret your attitude in a negative means since there is no invariably the situation once and for all, attraction of science is in the fact that new research results and lead to changes and to new knowledge.

Albanian language has no relationship with any European language, and you can see that it is classified as a completely separate, not Germanic, or Slavic, or Romance, or Celtic, or the Baltic, etc. in general any European language family does not belong. When the languages were classified scientists did not have data of haplogroups.

When it was revealed that Haplogroup E originated from Africa (Somalia/Ethiopia), and when it was found that haplogroup E is by far the dominant among the Albanians, with the highest concentration is achieved among the Albanians in Kosovo (see map of Maciamo about the distribution of E haplogroups in Europe and peak in the Kosovo), then began to investigate idea whether the original Albanian language is close to any of the Hamitic, or more accurately Afroasiatic languages. Exactly those languages are in the area of origin, spread and concentration of Haplogroup E.

Between languages of the same Afroasiatic (early, Hamitic) family:

Cushitic,
Omotic,
Chadic,
Egyptian and
Berber,

obviously Berber languages attracted the most attention, although all other languages remain interesting to study the connection with today's Albanian.

Especially for this purpose is becoming explorers Proto-berber language, which is thought to exist prior to 9000.

Someone can read (source: Wikipedia):

“...But modern Berber languages are relatively homogeneous, suggesting that whereas the split from the other known Afroasiatic branches was very ancient, on the order of 8000~9000BP, the split from the common language from which modern Berber languages come may be as recent as 3000 BP, according to Naima Louali.”

If E carriers have not yet migrated to Europe at the time, which can be found at many researchers, it is easily possible for the Albanian language to connects with Proto-berber. Among the authors there is no agreement when E came to Europe, Balkans, from Africa, there are researchers who placed the period 4000 to 6000 years, some even close.

It is high possible that original Albanian language must come from Africa, since the origin is African (for example, among the Albanian researchers there are those that connect Albanians with the Egyptians and so on.), so that knowledge come from new researchs, and new theories and conclusions created.

So in Europe comparisons have emerged of the Albanian and Berber.

Among the various Berber dialects, there are many Berber words, which are similar to Albanian, and some words those who speak these languages reveals.

At the Albanian forums can be read Albanians put up pictures Berbers and affects where they are from and compare physical similarities with Albanians, the theme is not new, it is all written, I try to approach in the way of serious research and to point to this relationship, Y DNA, anthropological, linguistic, we can go on with the costumes, customs and so on.

To the observation that the Berber languages is lot arabized, okay, you can see that I pointed influence of Arabic and French (and Spanish among some Berbers populations), however, the Berbers who speak some of these dialects will notice whether the word original is Berber or adopted, from what I get, and an effort is worth only for those words that is sure to the original Berber and have not suffered the impact.

But it would be wonderful to Berbers involve in this discussion, then we can really all together to get to the exciting discoveries and insights, on movements and origin of population, for which the genetics and anthropology have found that the same common origin.

Thus, we can consider the many same or very similar the Berber and Albanian words, and it would be nice to the Berbers include and to discuss about it.

If you noticed, I pointed out that today's Albanian took a lot of words from Latin, Greek, Serbian and other European languages, but it is very likely that it is basically Afroasiatic language, and then it is a close family of languages, which I mentioned.

Is Albanian language closest Proto-berber or another group of languages of Afroasiatic family, science will investigate and determine, it is still investigating and trying to prove, and charm of science is exactly in that new research and new results lead to a change of existing attitudes, enrichment of knowledge and new knowledge.

iapetoc
15-01-11, 20:33
in a lingua search done in Greece

among before 300years immigrants today locals
and new immigrants 1990+

among 5140 years

1420 are latin - Romanian origrin
540 slavian
1180 turkish
840 greeks
400 arian
730 unknown origin

although i dont trust much the results as quantities
(cause done by a nationalist scientist)

a % of 5-15 of results might change,
meaning that from 600 to 900 are unlnown.

well although leads in berber,
there is a notable evidence
according to homer, in troyan war we see many times the word 'ethiopean' Αιθιοψ Aethiops
the greek search connect them with libua-libya
besids in modern greek is spelled as livii b=v, i as i in kill

it would be better for a linguist to search in ethiopean or in libyan vocabulary

Garrick
15-01-11, 21:57
in a lingua search done in Greece

among before 300years immigrants today locals
and new immigrants 1990+

among 5140 years

1420 are latin - Romanian origrin
540 slavian
1180 turkish
840 greeks
400 arian
730 unknown origin

although i dont trust much the results as quantities
(cause done by a nationalist scientist)

a % of 5-15 of results might change,
meaning that from 600 to 900 are unlnown.

well although leads in berber,
there is a notable evidence
according to homer, in troyan war we see many times the word 'ethiopean' Αιθιοψ Aethiops
the greek search connect them with libua-libya
besids in modern greek is spelled as livii b=v, i as i in kill

it would be better for a linguist to search in ethiopean or in libyan vocabulary

iapetoc
Berber language before the arrival of the Arabs was dominant in Libya.

Even today in some places in Libya Berber language kept.

In today Ethiopia main language Amharic is Semitic.

But in Ethiopia there are many Afroasiatic languages, even three groups: Semitic, Cushitic and Omotic.

This is a very complex area for research but it is certainly worth the effort.

Ethiopia, 1994 census:

Amharic (Semitic): 17,400,000
Tigrigna (Semitic): 3,220,000
Sebat Bet Gurage (Semitic): 2,320,000, 2006 census

Oromo Borana-Arsi-Guji (Cushitic): 3,630,000
Oromo Eastern (Cushitic): 4,530,000
Oromo West Central (Cushitic): 8,920,000
Somali (Cushitic): 3,960,000, 2006 census

Gamo-Gofa-Dawro (Omotic): 1,240,000
Wolaytta (Omotic): 1,230,000

how yes no 2
15-01-11, 22:17
among 5140 years

1420 are latin - Romanian origrin
540 slavian
1180 turkish
840 greeks
400 arian
730 unknown origin

...
well although leads in berber,
there is a notable evidence
according to homer, in troyan war we see many times the word 'ethiopean' Αιθιοψ Aethiops
the greek search connect them with libua-libya
besids in modern greek is spelled as livii b=v, i as i in kill

it would be better for a linguist to search in ethiopean or in libyan vocabulary


based on classification of these 5140 words, we can see that Albanian language seems to have very mixed origin with heavy influence of other languages... but can it really be the case that all these words are loan words?
number of Greek and Slavic words seems to be proportional to historic influence and mixing with neighbouring populations which was intensive especially in south Albania that was probably Albanized only in times when Byzantium was weakened by Ottoman attacks in Asia and by rapid expand of Serbian state under tsar Dusan...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

this rapid spread and assimilation of Slavic and Greek natives explains why south Albanians have much stronger J2 and R1a haplogroup and why Albanians have I2a2 haplogroup while Arberesh (Albanians from Italy who migrated there when Ottomans took over Albania) do not...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

but number of latin and turkish words is disproportionally high.... Roman empire and Turkish empire did rule the area but the languages of invaders that do not massively settle conquered area are not likely to have that strong impact....

I think that some of the words travelled in other direction as Dardanians did live in Asia minor, so part of the words classified as Turkish might origin from Asia minor before Turks...similarly Roman empire does relate legend of origin to Aeneas who moved to Italy after Trojan war... and Aeneas was Dardanian.... so part of the vocabulary thought to origin from Latin might have traveled from Dardanian language of Asia minor to Latin..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

otherwise I agree that words of unknown origin are probably original basis of Albanian and likely origin from vocabulary of haplogroup E that comes from Afro-Asiatic language branch.... logically, as haplogroup E went to Anatolia its vocabulary was through everyday interaction influenced by vocabulary of Anatolian languages that were proto indo-european (PIE)... as this was very long time ago, today Albanian is indo-european language although probably originally it was Afro-Asiatic language...

Garrick
15-01-11, 23:41
based on classification of these 5140 words, we can see that Albanian language seems to have very mixed origin with heavy influence of other languages... but can it really be the case that all these words are loan words?
number of Greek and Slavic words seems to be proportional to historic influence and mixing with neighbouring populations which was intensive especially in south Albania that was probably Albanized only in times when Byzantium was weakened by Ottoman attacks in Asia and by rapid expand of Serbian state under tsar Dusan...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

this rapid spread and assimilation of Slavic and Greek natives explains why south Albanians have much stronger J2 and R1a haplogroup and why Albanians have I2a2 haplogroup while Arberesh (Albanians from Italy who migrated there when Ottomans took over Albania) do not...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

but number of latin and turkish words is disproportionally high.... Roman empire and Turkish empire did rule the area but the languages of invaders that do not massively settle conquered area are not likely to have that strong impact....

I think that some of the words travelled in other direction as Dardanians did live in Asia minor, so part of the words classified as Turkish might origin from Asia minor before Turks...similarly Roman empire does relate legend of origin to Aeneas who moved to Italy after Trojan war... and Aeneas was Dardanian.... so part of the vocabulary thought to origin from Latin might have traveled from Dardanian language of Asia minor to Latin..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeneas

otherwise I agree that words of unknown origin are probably original basis of Albanian and likely origin from vocabulary of haplogroup E that comes from Afro-Asiatic language branch.... logically, as haplogroup E went to Anatolia its vocabulary was through everyday interaction influenced by vocabulary of Anatolian languages that were proto indo-european (PIE)... as this was very long time ago, today Albanian is indo-european language although probably originally it was Afro-Asiatic language...

how yes no
Many Latin words in today's Albanian may be more recent.

Easy, when experts set out to standardize the language, each word for which were complicated to have the Albanian equivalent (various reasons), or that did not exist, were taking from the Latin (and Romanian).

Pay attention to the texts of Europeans from the begining 14th century, about the Albanian language (the first time and referred to by Europeans in a period from 1285 to 1332).

Source: Robert Eslie

Cit.

“Twenty-three years later, we encounter a description of Albania in the so-calledAnonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis (Anonymous Description of Eastern Europe), a mediaeval Latin text from the year 1308 A.D. which contains a survey of the lands of Eastern Europe, in particular, the countries of the Balkans (cf. Elsie1990). Its anonymous author is thought to have been a French or French-educated cleric, most likely of the Dominican order, who was sent by the church to Serbia where he gained much of his information on the Balkans. The text of the Anonymi Descriptio Europae Orientalis is contained in several mediaeval codices, among which are Ms. Lat. 5515 and Ms. Lat. 14693 at the Bibliothèque Nationale in Paris, Ms. 263 of the library of the City of Poitiers, and Cod. Lat. 66 of the University Library of Leiden. The manuscript was edited in Kraków in 1916 by Olgierd Górka. In addition to sections depicting the various regions of Byzantine Greece, Rascia, Bulgaria, Ruthenia, Hungary, Poland and Bohemia, it contains a section on Albania, one of the rare descriptions of the country in the early years of the fourteenth century. The section on Albania ends with the following reference to the Albanian language: ”Habent enim Albani prefati linguam distinctam a Latinis, Grecis et Sclavis ita quod in nullo se inteligunt eum aliis nationibus” (The aforementioned Albanians have a language which is distinct from that of the Latins, Greeks and Slavs such that in no way can they communicate with other peoples).”


Source: Robert Elsie

Cit.

“Burcard or Frère Brochard (Lat. Brocardus monacus). In a Latin work entitled Directorium ad passagium faciendum(cf. Recueil 1906).Burcard noted: ”Licet Albanensesaliam omnino linguam a latina habeant et diversam, tamen litteram latinam habent in uso et in omnibus suis libris”

The Albanians indeed have a language quite different from Latin. However, they use Latin letters in all their books.”


From these two historical text makes clear that the Albanian language was quite different from Latin.


And this text from Robert Elsie is interesting:

Source: Robert Leslie

Cit:

“In its treatment of the province of Albania, the ‘Anonymous Description’ refers to its population as ”warlike inhabitants ... who make excellent archers and lancers ... and who do not have cities, camps, fortifications and farms, but live rather in tents and are constantly on the move from one place to another.” The port of Durrës, it is noted, however, ”belongs to the Latins.” That Albanian must have been widely spoken on the coastal plains and mountain regions at the time can be inferred in particular from Simon Fitzsimmons’ initial observation that the province had a language of its own, i. e. Albanian. In his reference to the city of Durrës, however, the ‘barbaric Albanians‘ are mentioned only fourth, after the urban Latins, Greeks and Jews, an indication, in accord with the ‘Anonymous Description,’ that they had not yet formed the majority group in the city itself.”


This is the time before arrival of the Turks into the Balkans and before the Islamization.

Then the researchers wrote that the Albanians at the beginning of the 14th century still lived a nomadic way of life, just like the Berbers and other African peoples in North Africa at the time.

iapetoc
16-01-11, 00:45
about Aenias
Troy was build by drdanos grand grand son Ilos
Dardanos father was Illyros who invationed Illyria and give his name
But its other Dardanos who went to Ilion

No connection at that time
later perhaps

According Homer Greek and Troyan were same Language, but they didn't understand Diomedes the thacian, although Diomedes went to Greek games at Hellanas river
That is because according Thoukididis Athens spoke Tyrrshenian before the archaic greek- almost 700 BC
besides were Tyrshenian was spoken the dialect was Ionic and were Druopes (oak-tree people, druids) lived the dialect was aeolian,
ionian aeolian was the thessaly were the Myrmidons lived (myr = 10 000) many people may have connection with herodotus thracians (thyrrsenian-thryssen-thrasen etc) big nation,
becides myceane-myenae-minoa in greece and mycian maeni in troy leads that owners have similar PIE lingua or even the same,
altough far we see that from all IE lang the most related in greek is the latin
that means that the main lingua was similar to Gr IE
but although the area is near Hetit
(a thing that even today can' understand, if Greece took language from them)
the possibilty that Dardani took word from troy and they from hetit leads us to a far assumpion
a better approach comes with the islamization era
when byzantine fall they turn to islam
according the tradition when a christian change religion should learn the other language,
(still in turkey we find greek words ex christin areas)
the possibilty that turks words pass through islamization is bigger

but 750 to 5140 ????
still a big %

the fact that roman legions were in area and some dismissed there may has to do
that roman soldiers still kept words from origin, but how many stayed there????
is there a possibility that soldiers also bring their wifes???

Maciamo
16-01-11, 01:01
This thread is as stupid as it can get.

First of all a couple of most eminent linguist have studied the Albanian language and have clearly classified it as an Indo European Language.

You have to either be stupid or Illiterate to think there is a connection between Berber Languages and Albanian Language.

I suppose that the eminent linguists you are referring to are the kind of idiots who would classify English as a Germanic language, when it is perfectly obvious to anyone who has studied the language that it is a hybrid of Romance and Germanic languages (a Germano-Romance language if you will). About 70% of the vocabulary in English comes from Latin. Hundreds of English words from Latin don't even exist in other Romance languages (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/words_with_latin_roots_unique_english.shtml) (although they did exist in Latin).

Many if not all Indo-European languages incorporated words and grammatical structures from the tongues of conquered people. There is evidence of Afro-Asiatic syntax in Celtic languages, for instance. Greek and Latin borrowed substantially from Semitic languages (e.g. the Latin/Italian word for 'cow' is vacca, related to the Arabic baqara and proto-Semitic baqr, while the English word is related to the German Kuh, the Armenian kov, the Persian gav, the Sanskrit go, or the Tocharian ko).

So how could you say so confidently that Albanian is not a hybrid language based on both Indo-European and pre-Indo-European vernaculars ? If Celtic and Latin have loaned Afro-Asiatic terms and grammatical forms, how could Albanian language, spoken by a population descended in greater percentage from pre-Indo-European inhabitants originating in the Middle East and/or North Africa, not have elements of Afro-Asiatic languages ?

iapetoc
16-01-11, 16:11
maciamo you are little mistaken approach
many times the lingua scientist connect latium with early Homerick and minoan
the lemnian steale that found in lemnos island
and words that can be found only in 2 language connects them lingua
thoukidides sais that attica spoked Thrrsenian before archaic Greek

myrmidones and odyseeus were not relatives of myceneans
Pelasgians means sea people, from dorian pelag means flat and ionian pleg means float
what pelasgians has to do with continental Greece
in ancienty latin scientists search in greek cause of the relation,
the non IE words are similar,
Tyrshenian also was the language Troy

In Hommer Troy wich was a war of true warriors and kings
we see many times the word Ethiopas Αιθιωψ as foolowers and supporters of the warriors
the similarity of Tyrrshenian with Thrasenian thracian is big
Mycenean greeks could understand troyans But not their allies
hector paris Aineas has meaning in hommeric language
Hector means 100 men
Paris means taker
Aeneas means glorius
kassandra means she attack mens will
the tribe of Druids that pass GRece (druops driops Δρυοπες) in an area that Myrmidones live had different religion and culture from Myceneans

Your approach about pelasgians in another site is not according Greek academy of science
Cycladetic a pelasgian were tottaly phoinecian-tyrrshenian culture,

an approach to dryopes (druids) tell us that they came from east minor asia and went North west before Myceneans and worship trees, their name means oak people
besides the similarity of kings
Achamenides midle east minor asia
Agamemnon south greece
and achaic
Means aga acha were words from kings
and achaic is rulers the kings class not a tribe

latium accordind the non IE words similar minoan means land and mount albani probably mount labani
labrys is the stone tool or axe of minoan and Larisa means rocky nose
now larissa is in the middle you call pelasgian and according greeks say not

the probability of tyrrshenian means thrrasin is strong
also Tyrus -Tyros and troy, cause its also a mycenian there as mysian

the Big Stone buildings and pyramids are in balkan,
likethe mycenean and laconia - Λακωνια means pyramid
and also in bosna
has to do probably with E-V13
that in far anciety <2000 Bc probably an african nation probably egyptians colonize area, or the existance with J2 probably means that they came as builders with phoenissians etc asiatic,

the albanians of south albania have small difference with dardania, mainly in syntax,
and a lot of difference with arvanites a old at 1800 first attemp by France poukevill proves words common but different syntax and even meaning sometimes,
the possibility that E-V13 is common to both countries if data is correct picked and (families relations)
and enough to quantity, comes from ancient times were the first city was tyrrshenian (or not) the THEBES ΘΗΒΑ theba in greece
from thebes went Illyros KING to invade Illyria, and from thebes another King dardanos went to east and his sons sons Ilos build Troy
well according modern theories a Lingua almost exist like Libua-Lidua (luwan) in area
the possibility of libua to Be connected with Liburnian and luwan is big due to area was liburnia spoken is north Greek illyria and were roman named illyria,
but the fact that E % drops in middle montnegro leads us to what greek named Illyria,
although in Illyrian wars a part hed moved and went to dardania and dacomoesia

I believe that E-v13 has to do with megalithic structures before myceneans time at myceneans time, the know how was given probably by egypt or libya or middle east by E-V13 carriers and a part of them went north-west to illyria, the south part was invaded by myceneans and is part Greeks, while the north part Didn't , was thracianiazed and was invaded by romans

the turkish has to do that if they came via middleeast probably Hettit area, and with the islamization
the possibilty that from lydia-lycaonia hatit area went to troy and from there via troyan mycenenans mysians were thracianised is also an explain but it goes far,

besides their social system of rulers reminds us the achaic (aga) system of families oligarchy were families (relatives) were also class and rulers,
same system we had in athens before solon (12 tribes) and in makadonia,

BY THE WAY WHEN THE MAKEDONIAN INVADE????
AND FROM WHERE???
THAT IS FIRST TIME HEARD MACCIAMO !!!!!!!!!!!
can you give 1 source?

Maciamo
16-01-11, 17:42
Iapetoc, why are you talking to me about ancient Greece, Troy, Pelasgians, Macedonians and megaliths, when I have posted nothing remotely related to that in this thread or any other thread for many months ?

This discussion is about Albanian language !

Garrick
16-01-11, 18:04
In Hommer Troy wich was a war of true warriors and kings
we see many times the word Ethiopas Αιθιωψ as foolowers and supporters of the warriors
the similarity of Tyrrshenian with Thrasenian thracian is big
Mycenean greeks could understand troyans But not their allies
hector paris Aineas has meaning in hommeric language
Hector means 100 men
Paris means taker
Aeneas means glorius
kassandra means she attack mens will
the tribe of Druids that pass GRece (druops driops Δρυοπες) in an area that Myrmidones live had different religion and culture from Myceneans


the albanians of south albania have small difference with dardania, mainly in syntax,
and a lot of difference with arvanites a old at 1800 first attemp by France poukevill proves words common but different syntax and even meaning sometimes,
the possibility that E-V13 is common to both countries if data is correct picked and (families relations)
and enough to quantity, comes from ancient times were the first city was tyrrshenian (or not) the THEBES ΘΗΒΑ theba in greece
from thebes went Illyros KING to invade Illyria, and from thebes another King dardanos went to east and his sons sons Ilos build Troy
well according modern theories a Lingua almost exist like Libua-Lidua (luwan) in area
the possibility of libua to Be connected with Liburnian and luwan is big due to area was liburnia spoken is north Greek illyria and were roman named illyria,
but the fact that E % drops in middle montnegro leads us to what greek named Illyria,
although in Illyrian wars a part hed moved and went to dardania and dacomoesia

the turkish has to do that if they came via middleeast probably Hettit area, and with the islamization
the possibilty that from lydia-lycaonia hatit area went to troy and from there via troyan mycenenans mysians were thracianised is also an explain but it goes far,

besides their social system of rulers reminds us the achaic (aga) system of families oligarchy were families (relatives) were also class and rulers,
same system we had in athens before solon (12 tribes) and in makadonia,


iapetoc
It's about Libya possible to fit with Berbers.

If Ethiopia is concerned it might be interesting to explore the Cushitic languages rather than Semitic.

What further surprise is that Europeans were first mentioned the Albanian language only in the period 1285, 1332, not earlier.

Garrick
16-01-11, 18:39
I suppose that the eminent linguists you are referring to are the kind of idiots who would classify English as a Germanic language, when it is perfectly obvious to anyone who has studied the language that it is a hybrid of Romance and Germanic languages (a Germano-Romance language if you will). About 70% of the vocabulary in English comes from Latin. Hundreds of English words from Latin don't even exist in other Romance languages (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/words_with_latin_roots_unique_english.shtml) (although they did exist in Latin).

Many if not all Indo-European languages incorporated words and grammatical structures from the tongues of conquered people. There is evidence of Afro-Asiatic syntax in Celtic languages, for instance. Greek and Latin borrowed substantially from Semitic languages (e.g. the Latin/Italian word for 'cow' is vacca, related to the Arabic baqara and proto-Semitic baqr, while the English word is related to the German Kuh, the Armenian kov, the Persian gav, the Sanskrit go, or the Tocharian ko).

So how could you say so confidently that Albanian is not a hybrid language based on both Indo-European and pre-Indo-European vernaculars ? If Celtic and Latin have loaned Afro-Asiatic terms and grammatical forms, how could Albanian language, spoken by a population descended in greater percentage from pre-Indo-European inhabitants originating in the Middle East and/or North Africa, not have elements of Afro-Asiatic languages ?

Here are some more words from

Berber (Tamasheq) and Albanian (Shqipe):

stripe (eng.), sәrrett (berb.), shirit (alb.)

awl (eng.), endel (berb.), fëndyell (y alb. no pronounciation in English, between u and e)

selling (eng.), (street selling) asәtijen (berb.), shitjen (alb.)

grass matting (eng.), esabar (berb.), hasër bar (alb.)

stretch (eng.), ijj (berb.), shtrij (alb.)

Shetop
16-01-11, 19:14
It would be interesting to read your thoughts - which one of the languages below is the ancestor language of todays Albanian language:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Balkan-map.png

Dian
16-01-11, 21:04
Hello to everyone, especially to Maciamo.
I hope the intention to open this thread by my dear friends from Serbia and Greece, was not to prove that the albanians are not europians or they are related with Africa, Asia and the are not civilized, and so on. I know the official propaganda of Serbia and New Greece and we have suffered a lot from them, even today.

But, now let's talk about the real Albanian language.
I'm new here, so I can't post image or links.
Here the first example:

Ik (albanian )
行く[iku] (japanese)
wiki (hawainian)
quick (english)

Can anyone tell me, how these words are related?

Dian
16-01-11, 21:14
[QUOTE=iapodos;363290]Albanian national costume from Northern Albania

My dear!
Have you ever seen any paint from Paul Jovanovich ?
I really doubt, because you would know very well the albanian national dress!! :smile:

sturmgewehr
16-01-11, 21:32
Haplogroup E V13 is almost non existent outside the Balkans, it reaches some kind of 3 - 4 % amongst Turkish population but that is dude to the factor of migrations during the Byzantine Empire and Ottoman Empire.

Let me educate the illiterate ones here:

The distribution and diversity of V13 are generally thought to be suggestive that it was brought to the Balkans along with early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion Semino et al. (2004). However, Battaglia et al. (2008) believe it arrived in Europe in the Mesolithic and then only later integrated with Neolithic cultures in the Balkans. They suggest the first major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in the direction of the Adriatic Sea with the Neolithic Impressed Ware culture often referred to as Impressa or Cardial.

iapetoc
16-01-11, 21:58
So sturmgewehr (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/member.php?u=27734)

You agree with me that megalithic buildings of mycaenae and vinca etc was build by E_V13 carriers?
or you say that it was before??
do you agree that mycenean mysian-troyan moesian cultures had E-v13 carriers?
cause in mysia also big E-V13, as in moesia
or not?

how yes no 2
16-01-11, 22:36
Hello to everyone, especially to Maciamo.
I hope the intention to open this thread by my dear friends from Serbia and Greece, was not to prove that the albanians are not europians or they are related with Africa, Asia and the are not civilized, and so on.

Albanians are Europeans. It would be very hard to claim opposite.

All people of Europe are related to Asia and Africa, as they origin from Africa and came to Europe via Asia. Just timeline is different for different haplogroups.

Haplogroup E has split in several subbranches, and E-V13 is the one related to Europe. Existence of other branches of haplogroup E in Africa doesnot make European people who origin from E-V13 less European.

However, it may be interesting to establish which words in languages of today origin from which haplogroups. For that purpose comparing language of European people who are dominantly E-V13 and language of people from other branches of haplogroup E, e.g. from north Africa, might be interesting.

Note that haplogroup E-V13 is not related just to Albanians, as E-V13 is spread throughout Europe (especially in Balkans). However, somewhat larger frequency in Albanians might have resulted in more original haplogroup E words preserved... that is what I think was idea with this thread....

sturmgewehr
17-01-11, 02:20
So

You agree with me that megalithic buildings of mycaenae and vinca etc was build by E_V13 carriers?
or you say that it was before??
do you agree that mycenean mysian-troyan moesian cultures had E-v13 carriers?
cause in mysia also big E-V13, as in moesia
or not?

I pretty much agree with you, those Megalithic Cultures were either E V13 or J2b Carriers, since the Neolithic CUlture which was born in the Middle east was brought to the Balkans by these people.

sturmgewehr
17-01-11, 02:22
Albanians are Europeans. It would be very hard to claim opposite.

All people of Europe are related to Asia and Africa, as they origin from Africa and came to Europe via Asia. Just timeline is different for different haplogroups.

Haplogroup E has split in several subbranches, and E-V13 is the one related to Europe. Existence of other branches of haplogroup E in Africa doesnot make European people who origin from E-V13 less European.

However, it may be interesting to establish which words in languages of today origin from which haplogroups. For that purpose comparing language of European people who are dominantly E-V13 and language of people from other branches of haplogroup E, e.g. from north Africa, might be interesting.

Note that haplogroup E-V13 is not related just to Albanians, as E-V13 is spread throughout Europe (especially in Balkans). However, somewhat larger frequency in Albanians might have resulted in more original haplogroup E words preserved... that is what I think was idea with this thread....

That Haplogroup is also as high as 20%+ amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Macedonians and Bulgarians.

that haplogroup is the Neolithic Farmer, these people are out of their minds Relating Albanians with Berbers which First of all are 2 different Genetic groups which don't cluster with each other and secondly 2 different linguistic and Cultural Groups and 2 Different Racial Groups.

how yes no 2
17-01-11, 02:32
That Haplogroup is also as high as 20%+ amongst Serbs, Montenegrians, Macedonians and Bulgarians.

that haplogroup is the Neolithic Farmer, these people are out of their minds Relating Albanians with Berbers which First of all are 2 different Genetic groups which don't cluster with each other and secondly 2 different linguistic and Cultural Groups and 2 Different Racial Groups.

thing is they do cluster with each other...
according to

Forensic Science International: Genetics doi:10.1016/j.fsigen.2010.09.010
Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe
Amalia Diaz-Lacava et al.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s320/Ystrclusters.png
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TNLyVNbffHI/AAAAAAAAC0E/vsEQYTTobHQ/s1600/Ystrclusters.png


Albanians (cluster 13) cluster first with central Anatolia (cluster 5),
than this cluster clusters with
cluster made of cluster 18 (Serbs, Croats, central Ukraine, Romania, east and west Hungary) and cluster 10 (? not indicated anywhere),

than this cluster composed of clusters 13, 18, 5 and 10 clusters with north west Africa (cluster 3),

and only than this cluster clusters with cluster made of clusters 7(northeast Africa?) , 12, 15 and 2 (Greeks , Macedonians & Bulgars).....

east Europe cluster 17 (Russians and Poles) cluster with Caucasus (11) and than this cluster clusters with west Europe cluster 6..


*Cluster 13 (Albanian) was registered as second in frequency in the region of Anatolia and
the border region of Latvia,Belarus,and the Russian Federation (data not shown).

in any case northwest Africa (Berbers) thus cluster with Balkans.... perhaps due to Phoenicians... or due to some much older link... or due to settlement of Vandals and Alans in northwest Africa...

Garrick
17-01-11, 02:45
I hope the intention to open this thread by my dear friends from Serbia and Greece, was not to prove that the albanians are not europians or they are related with Africa, Asia and the are not civilized, and so on.

You say, but nobody had said here before, you can see all previous posts.



Haplogroup E V13 is almost non existent outside the Balkans, it reaches some kind of 3 - 4 % amongst Turkish population but that is dude to the factor of migrations during the Byzantine Empire and Ottoman Empire.


Let me educate the illiterate ones here:

The distribution and diversity of V13 are generally thought to be suggestive that it was brought to the Balkans along with early farming technologies, during the Neolithic expansion Semino et al. (2004). However, Battaglia et al. (2008) believe it arrived in Europe in the Mesolithic and then only later integrated with Neolithic cultures in the Balkans. They suggest the first major dispersal of E-V13 from the Balkans may have been in the direction of the Adriatic Sea with the Neolithic Impressed Ware culture often referred to as Impressa or Cardial.



It is no longer current.

You can read new scientific articles about it.

Haak et. al.

PLOS Biology, November 2010

Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities

“We genetically characterized a population of the earliest farming culture inCentral Europe, the Linear Pottery Culture (LBK; 5,500–4,900 calibrated B.C.) and used comprehensive phylogeographic andpopulation genetic analyses to locate its origins within the broader Eurasian region, and to trace potential dispersal routesinto Europe.”

The authors did not find that the E haplogroup existed at that time in Europe. This means that the holders of E came to Europe after 4900 BC.

When they arrived (about 4000 BC or 3000 BC or later?) establish new researchs. Do E carriers were at the time of 5000 years BC in West Asia or Africa? Certainly, and this will determine the researchs, but in Europe, according to a study Haak et al, E carriers were not.

Now, you can look at this picture of the spread of haplogroup E.


http://img408.imageshack.us/img408/6505/52658671.jpg


Pay attention to the E-M78, from which it originated and E-V13 and territory. It is believed that the source is Upper Egypt. With picture you can see that E bearers went to Western Africa and north into Western Asia. So the current holders of E-V13 haplogroups in the Balkans is very likely come from the Upper Egypt (and more before from Somalia/Ethiopia).


Now look at this picture.

http://img412.imageshack.us/img412/2149/36543816.jpg


Here you can see that the Egyptian and Proto-berber (formerly classified as Hamitic, and Afro-Asiatic, and now increasingly used the term Afrasian) occurred about 9000 years ago.

The separation Chusitic and Proto-North-Erythraic languages occurred before 13,000 years, a Protoboreafrasian and Protochadic were taking about 11,000 years ago.

We still do not know when exactly E carriers crossed from Africa to the Asian continent is. the Middle East, but if it happened later than 9000 years it makes sense to look for similarities in today's Berber languages with Albanian, also with the Coptic language (Coptic unfortunately is almost extinct).

If E carriers previously crossed into Asia, then it makes sense to look for similarities in some of the languages that are climbing up the tree in Figure.


I said before, no invariant knowledge, science is a dynamic, new research results and lead to changes earlier opinions, enrichment of knowledge and new knowledge.

Dian
17-01-11, 04:45
The authors did not find that the E haplogroup existed at that time in Europe. This means that the holders of E came to Europe after 4900 BC.
When they arrived (about 4000 BC or 3000 BC or later?) establish new researchs. Do E carriers were at the time of 5000 years BC in West Asia or Africa? Certainly, and this will determine the researchs, but in Europe, according to a study Haak et al, E carriers were not.


In contrast, Y chromosome SNPs could be typed for only three out of the eight male individuals (37.5%; Table S2) identified through physical anthropological examination, reflecting the much lower copy number of nuclear loci [22]. After typing with the GenoY25 assay, individual deb34 was found to belong to hg G (M201), whereas individuals deb20 and deb38 both fall basally on the F branch (derived for M89 but ancestral for markers M201, M170, M304, and M9), i.e., they could be either F or H (Table 1). To further investigate the hg status beyond the standard GenoY25 assay, we amplified short fragments around SNP sites M285, P287, and S126 to further resolve deb34 into G1, G2*, and G2a3, and around SNP site M69 to distinguish between F and H [26]. deb34 proved to be ancestral for G1-M285 but derived for G2*-P287 and additional downstream SNP S126 (L30), placing it into G2a3. deb20 and deb38 were shown to be ancestral at M69 and hence basal F (M89), and remained in this position because we did not carry out further internal subtyping within the F clade.
Haak W, Balanovsky O, Sanchez JJ, Koshel S, Zaporozhchenko V, et al. (2010) Ancient DNA from European Early Neolithic Farmers Reveals Their Near Eastern Affinities. PLoS Biol 8(11): e1000536. doi:10.1371/journal.pbio.1000536
So, how can you assume the E haplotype did not exist at that time in Europe, typing the Y chromosome SNPs of only with 3 out of 8 males?!:confused2:

Garrick
17-01-11, 05:14
So, how can you assume the E haplotype did not exist at that time in Europe, typing the Y chromosome SNPs of only with 3 out of 8 males?!:confused2:

Dian
It was written by authors of the work, this new article can be found and you can read.

The authors mentioned that they didn't find several haplogroup among them that haplogroup E was not at that time in Europe (probably E was in Western Asia at that time and of course in Africa).

Interestingly one reads the paper for several reasons. Here is one of the key sentences of the work relevant to the general knowledge:

"However, the LBK population also showed unique genetic features including a clearly distinct distribution of mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies, confirming that major demographic events continued to take place in Europe after the early Neolithic."

iapetoc
17-01-11, 05:23
i still believe that is very much connected with J2,
the propabilty both came same time but different class like merchants and builders,
besides shqiptar is a turkish word shqepar meaning axe, the only other civilization with axe is minoan lavrys

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labrys

the possibility of a big number o turcish words leads me to the conclusion that are hetit and to a though or thesis that are 2 E one that unite troy via hetit and lydian support, became mysian and travel with moesian to gaete-dacian
and one that is connected with greeks only,

but the IE similarity of achamenides agamemnon achaic people and achaic also agaic-> to geg, also the gygy people on lydia and in moesia, leads me to a conclusion that the E
1) either was cut from south balkan E nad reunite after lingua change in south E
2) either was another and has to do with lycaonia and lydia, and was assimilated by troy thracians and pass by myssian to moesia

Dian
17-01-11, 05:36
We still do not know when exactly E carriers crossed from Africa to the Asian continent is. the Middle East, but if it happened later than 9000 years it makes sense to look for similarities in today's Berber languages with Albanian, also with the Coptic language (Coptic unfortunately is almost extinct).
There was an italian, arberesh origin linguist who has done a study about the albanian language and the language of ancient Egypt. He thought the ancient egyptian hieroglyphs can be understood with albanian language, but the indo-eu linguists have never trusted this theory.
He compared the coptic language, the language of hittites, aramaic language, the arabic language with albanian.
The book is written in the italian language, and was not published more than a few copies.
Giuseppe Catapano, "Thot Parlava Albanese" Bardi Editore, Roma 1984!
By the way "Thot" in the alb. means " He tell" 3d person singual.
Another thing! To speak about the albanian language you must know it! Because the examples and the translate of them you brought here, can make laugh every albanian. This is a friendly suggestion!

Dian
17-01-11, 06:24
Dian
It was written by authors of the work, this new article can be found and you can read.
The authors mentioned that they didn't find several haplogroup among them that haplogroup E was not at that time in Europe (probably E was in Western Asia at that time and of course in Africa).
Interestingly one reads the paper for several reasons. Here is one of the key sentences of the work relevant to the general knowledge:
"However, the LBK population also showed unique genetic features including a clearly distinct distribution of mitochondrial haplogroup frequencies, confirming that major demographic events continued to take place in Europe after the early Neolithic."
I was referring to this part:

The Y chromosome hgs obtained from the three Derenburg early Neolithic individuals are generally concordant with the mtDNA data (Table 1). Interestingly, we do not find the most common Y chromosome hgs in modern Europe (e.g., R1b, R1a, I, and E1b1), which parallels the low frequency of the very common modern European mtDNA hg H (now at 20%–50% across Western Eurasia) in the Neolithic samples. Also, while both Neolithic Y chromosome hgs G2a3 and F* are rather rare in modern-day Europe, they have slightly higher frequencies in populations of the Near East, and the highest frequency of hg G2a is seen in the Caucasus today [15].
Now, the E hg is a Y-DNA hg, not a mtDNA hg. May be one day we may find another grave old like LBK with E hg. There is any study in the Balkans about this?

iapetoc
17-01-11, 08:22
laugh? you may laugh but it is a class name of a nation
shqiptar in albanian
shqapan in greek
shqepar in turkish

1 the albanians
2 the builders
3 the builders hammer
any connection

and open your eyes

Alb thot
grec toutos - tuto -u as u in ucraine

want more?

Dian
17-01-11, 16:22
laugh? you may laugh but it is a class name of a nation
shqiptar in albanian
shqapan in greek
shqepar in turkish
1 the albanians
2 the builders
3 the builders hammer
any connection

I don't understand what you means, but let me explane something.
In alb. Sqepar- adz, from Sqep + ar. Sqep-beak,pecker and ar- usually an ending in alb words. It looks like the beak of a bird!
In greek it is called σκεπάρνι. Can you tell me the origin of this word, because the turks called it "gaga"! Don't you confuse "sqepar" with "çekiç"!
Now do you know what means in alb, Shkly, shqy, shqyp, shqip,sqep, shqep, shqype, shqipe and shqiponjë?
And what means "Skiptos" ?

Dian
17-01-11, 16:28
want more?
Yes I do!
Please tell me, who is John Amos Comenius?

iapetoc
17-01-11, 18:09
THEN YOU ARE RIGHT
IF Sqepar- adz, from Sqep + ar
and the turks also called skeparn in areas like minor Asia smyrna and cappadokia

so then
we go to the other approach

SHQIPTAR = ISH + GIPT + AR means I AM EGYPTIAN g as wh in what if g as k the coptic
cause in byzantine egyptians even today they are called GYPT-IAN and the COPTIC KOPT-ES = COPT-ES
then THAT APPROACH FITS TO YOU,
MEANING THAT SHQIPTAR MEANS EGYPTIAN.

OR ESH + GIPT + AR = FROM EGYPT ???????
also Ash means from but only in east ionic


i suggest you tell me who is

David Megas Komnenos comnenus

or

Michael Komnenos Comnenus

or

Alexander Ypsilantis

all from comnana of Trebizond Empire to Con/polis to Epirus to moldavia


because Skiptos means bowed but sgiptos means egyptian
k as gr κ
g as γ -wh- in what 'swhiptos'

or the very ancient before 700 BC skif-os or skiphos wich in aeolian druopean (thessaly) means ksifos early kind of spear, the metallic nose-edge of the spear,
cause in case that shqiptar means form egypt then we have a small lingua conection with egypt,
but in case of shqiptar means something like the sword, then the similarity with proto-greeks is obvious
Gods what the f... happened to greek language?
And the book thot parllara albanese is correct,
and maybe solves problems and gives us light,
cause until now albanian language is considered the most isolated and the lingua with the most unknown words
if giuseppe catapano (Gaetapanou in greek means captain panos)
is correct then a new search era begins, and may also corrects mistakes of the past of all balkans nations, it can help us all,
anywhere i can find it? only italy arbers?

sturmgewehr
17-01-11, 22:59
You people have to stop being Stupid and not complicate things, looking for a needle in hay.

Shqiptar comes from the word Shqipe or Shqiponja which means Eagle, we all know Skenderbeg was the one that carried the eagle in his flag, Albanians called on this flag and identified with this flag.

Shqiptar is a term Related to the Eagle plus Shqiptar is a new term Used by Albanians Probably after the 16th or 17th Century, Albanians bever before that refered to themselves as Shqiptar we refered to ourselves as Arbresh or Arber

DejaVu
17-01-11, 23:57
Who was Georgija Kastriot (Gjergj Kastrioti, Georgius Castriotus, Georgios Kastriotis)?

The book about Georgija Kastriot written by Petar Popovski.

There are 20 full songs like these in the book, sung in a western Macedonian (Mijak) dialect. Albanians have none. Georgija Kastriot was IMPOSED in their history, by the Austro-hungarian and Italian politico-historians when Albania was formed in 1912.

One is the song about the dream of his mother Voislava and the second is the song about Georgija and his wife Marija Andronika.

Son sonila Voislava kralica
son sonila od son se isplasila
Mi rodila bela luta zmija
So kriljata Epir pokrivala
So glavata carigrad dopirala
Kako zmija glava mu vrtela
Take zivi Turci mi g'ltala

Se chudeje epirski vojvodi
sho je ova chudo nevideno
Malo kralce, s kruna na cheloto
Se radveshe Ivanova roda
Brakja , sestri i si bratuchedi
Sho se rodi dete zvezdajlija...

Mu kladoja ime Gospodovo
Georgija - ime hristijansko
Makedonsko - slavno biblijansko....

==========

Ushche zora ne zorila
Stana Ivan na pot da mi odit
Mi razbudi sina Georgija
Si jafnaje svoi brzi konji
Otidoje vo grada Kanina..

Zdravo zivo tije si storile
I na divan skrisno besedeje
Da se krenat protiv Osmanlii
Da si vratit zemji porobeni
Ji sluzese mlada Andronika
S crno kafe i s luta rakija
Frli oko Gjorgji na devojka
Lichna moma kako samovila....


Barleti is Georija's biograph, a bishop that lived in Georgija's rule...In his book "Historia de vita et rebus gestis Scanderbegi" he refers to Kastriot only with "King of Epirus and Macedonia"

T. Spanducci, a writer from the 17th century in his book "Historia" wrote:

"Georgija Kastriot was respected not only by his tribe, the Mijak tribe but all other nations, even the Turks. His mother was Vojislava, a Macedonian woman, daughter of a nobleman from Polog, which of course is a part of Macedonia..."
And then he concludes:
"The Mijak tribe and all the other Slovenes have many reasons for the glorification and the singed songs about their hero Georgija Kastriot, because he fought for the protection of the slav culture, for the christian cross and for the freedom, but also because he had the most noble name from his kind - Georgija"

Even today in Mount Athos in the Monastery Hilandar(Χιλανδαρίου) you can see the writing of the monk Nikanor that says:
Сеи хрисовуль есть господара Ивнна Кацтпиота македонскаго, и копίе его вь немъ есть. И пише како даеть монастирю нашему две села во и суща съ церковьίю Пресветы, Богородицы тамо сущίа, и описуеть вс по синорами, и прочат.

P.S. Vita et res praeclare gestae Christi Athletae Georgii Castrioti Epirotarum principis, qui propter heroicam virtutem suam a Turcis Scander beg, id est Alexander Magnus cognominatus est libris XIII a Marino Barletio, Scodrensi sacerdote conscripta, denum cum licentia superiourum reimpressa, Zagrabiaeanno 1743.

When the Ottomans found the grave of Skanderbeg in Saint Nicholas, a church in Lezhë, they opened it and made amulets of his bones, believing that these would confer bravery on the wearer.
His grave is in a orthodox church yard.

Coat of arms (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Coat_of_arms) of the Kastrioti (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kastrioti) family
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/StemaeFamiljesKastrioti2.GIF

Codex
18-01-11, 01:27
Gjon Kastrioti, father of Gjergj Kastrioti was a lord of Middle Albania and his mother Vojsava Tripalda was a princess from the Tripalda family, yes, from the Polog valley, north-western region of todays FYROM. By the way, in this region lives albanians and a very small slavic population. Just to remind you, few years ago, when the Albanians mentioned Skanderbeg, you punished and tortured while imprisoned them ... you have insulted and offended his name? Remember that many times he was betrayed by Slavic people. And now, suddenly, he became your hero? Stop with these lies and tackle your 20-year history.

sturmgewehr
18-01-11, 01:33
Petar Popovski is a nutcase no one in the world would take him seriously.

iapetoc
18-01-11, 02:00
yes of course kastrioti 20 sources say he is greek, 20 sources say he is Albanian 20 sources say he is slavian,
WTF do you expect solution to that?
tommorow 20 sources say he is montenegros WTF expect
who to trust?
albanians nationalists who recon skopje
slavians nationalist who recon bardarska WTF
Greeks nationalist who claim even Georgia
bulgarians who say they are the only thracians
!!!!!!!!
we make spam propaganda every thread,

besides according greeks his wife was Ariadne Androniki Komneni (ariadne adriyianite)
WTF
his grand father was constantine kastrioti regi casturia et ematheia
in byzantine
Κωνσταντινος Καστριωτης Ελεω Θεου ΡΩμαιωνΤιμαριων (baron) καστοριας και ημαθειας
casturia et ematheia in greek makedonia?
or castrat et mat in albania???
:))))))))))

WTF you expect?
to find solution to that? no way
:)))))))))
only turks dont claim kastrioti

besides the only thing i have not heard yet is that makedonians came from china....
they were with huns or sarmatians or scythians ....
and they speak turkish before koine ....................
maybe i will hear also in future claims of turks
!!!!!!!!!!

DejaVu
18-01-11, 17:24
"yes of course kastrioti 20 sources say he is greek, 20 sources say he is Albanian 20 sources say he is slavian"
Where is the source link please.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emathus
Emathus , Emathius or Amathus (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek):Ἥμαθος, Ἠμάθιος, Ἄμαθος), was son of Makednos (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Makednos), from whom Emathia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Emathia) (the Homeric name of Lower Macedonia) was believed to have derived its name. The daughters of Pierus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pierus), the Pierides, are sometimes called Emathides. The Emathian or Emathius in Latin is a frequently used name by Latin poets for Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great). Actually, Emathus became son of Makednos in the second half of the fourth century, when Marsyas of Pella (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Marsyas_of_Pella) made Emathos and Pieros the eponymous of these two regions in Ancient Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon). Brusos was a son of Emathius, from whom Brusis, a portion of Macedonia, was believed to have derived its name. According to Solinus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Solinus) (9.10) , Emathius was unrelated and older than Makednos (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Makednos).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Makednos
Makedon, also Macedon or Makednos (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Μακεδών), was the eponymous (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Eponym) mythological ancestor of the ancient Macedonians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians) according to various ancient Greek fragmentary narratives. In most versions, he appears as a native or immigrant leader who gave his name to the Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon), previously called Emathia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Emathia) or Thrace (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thrace).

"Remember that many times he was betrayed by Slavic people."
Which slavic people betrayed him?, can you link to your source.


Gjon is not the real name of Georgijas father, his real name is Ivan and he was a Mijak (Macedonian tribe).
Georgija, of course, based on relevant historical sources. The family (descent) Kastriot, whose descendant is Georgija Kastriot, originates from the Mijak tribal group Kastrates. Today there are two assumptions for his birthplace. By ones, Georgija was born in the village Simona, north of the town Kroja (now Kruja), by others in the village Rostusha, Debar region. The Kastriot family was famous even in the first half of the XIV century when his grandfather Konstantin Kastriot became a head of the Macedonian (Miak) population in the region of Matka (now Mat) and Mala Les (now Malesia, that is Male Zi), Northern Albania. Formerly Konstantin was one of the greatest salt traders with Dubrovnik. After his death his son Ivan, who accepting the vassalage of the Turks succeeded to protect that part of today Albania from the Ottoman slavery, inherited him. Ivan's father left more written documents testifying about the Macedonian (Mijak) character of the Kastriot descent. On this occasion we shall cite only a part of the charter written by the hand of Ivan to the Monastery of Hilendar, on Sveta Gora, from 1426.

In this document, written in Old Church Slavic language
the following is written.

"According to the unspeakable mercy of my ruler Christ, I, sinful and
unworthy, must not be mistaken to my Jesus Christ, Ivan Kastriot and my sons Stanisha and Riposha and Konstantin and Georgij. have contributed to the Holy monastery great Prechista of the ruler Lavri of Hilendar and I contributed the village Rodostushe and the church St.Prechista Bogorodica, also in that village Rodostushe and the village Trebishte.

The writing is confirmed with a seal with the name of Ivan Kastriot,
written in Cyrillic alphabet (See documents in: St.Novakovich, Legal
monuments./fifth book, pg. 467).

From the correspondence with the Dubrovnik Republic, having political,
military and trade relations, three letters have been saved written also in
Cyrillic alphabet. His Macedonian-Christian spirit and character is clearly seen from the letters. This spirit is mostly expressed in the letter from 25 February 1420, sent to the landowner Petar from Dubrovnik, which says:

"My faith in Christ as well as the faith of my sons Reposh, Stanislav,
Konstantin and Georgija. My Gjorgjian country, extending from Konjuh (now Elbasan) to Prizren, is maintained and cultivated by me, Mr. Ivan and my sons."

As it can be seen here, Ivan Kastriot calls his landowner's territory "Gjorgjian", that is "Gjorgjian land", after the name of his grand-grandfather Gjorgjia, he had inherited it from. These records deny all theses, lies, forgeries and speculations for the supposed Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) that is Albanian character of the Kastriot family.
A testimony for the Macedonian (Mijak) origin of Georgija is the
personal names in the descent of the Kastriot family. Namely, in this Macedonian ancient family we meet the most archaic and most characteristic Slavic biblical names like: Branislav, Pavle, Nikola, Gjorgjija, Konstantin - all ancestors of Georgjija. His parents, his father Ivan and his mother Voislava, had four sons - Reposh, Stanislav, Konstantin and Georgija and five daughters - Radislava,
Marija, Vlajka, Angelina and Mamica. Georgija's sons were named after their ancestors: Ivan and Pavle, which is a common characteristic of the Mijak descendants. None of the names here can be identified with the Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) element.

A testimony for the Macedonian character of this family, above all, are the ancient so called Slavic noun suffixes - Slav and slava, like
in the names Brani(slav), Stani(slav), Rado(slava) and Voi(slava) identifying their Macedonian (Slavic) origin. (Compare to: F.Barishik, and the origin of the Slavics.CXLII).

Such characteristic Macedonian (Slavic) names before Ivan and
Georgija, within their time and after, had all other landowners in the areas of today Albania, which was completely understandable, because the Mijak element since ancient times populated the whole territory of today Albania. (See documentary with: Mussachi, Lejean, Karl Hort, Arni Boue, Seiner, Hahn, MacCenzi, Irby, Pankville, Treimer etc.etc.). Georgija had never called himself Gjergj. We do not meet him under such name in no written document. Neither in the narrative nor in the epigraphic. And that the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) call him by such name is an unbelievable historical forgery.

Some historians, with little knowledge of the history of Albania and the
genesis of the Shgipetars (Tosks) and the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), today- the Albanians, make a big mistake naming Georgija with the noun supplement-Skenderbeg. He had never been Skender or Bey! In the authentic historical sources we met him only and solely with the title Macedonian (Mijak) duke, that is the Duke of Arvatia and the Duke of Epirus. (Compare with same sources).

The noun supplement Skenderbeg is a pure historical forgery. His real noun supplement is Iskender, which according to the eastern tradition means Alexander. Since the Arnautian "scientists" do not read the history, let us say why Georgija got the noun supplement Iskender (Alexander)? As it is known, in the period of 1448-1468, Georgija waged a few fierce battles with the Turks, not allowing them to conquer his native country-Arvatia, named so after the ancient Macedonian (Slavic) tribal group Arv'n. He got the noun supplement Iskender in 1455 when with his fellow tribesmen- the Mijaks, captured for the second time the town Belgrade (now Berat) from the Turks. It was named so from the sultan Mohammed II personally (1451-1481) who took part in the battle he, excited by what he had seen and experienced. (Compare with: Paganel, Bajron, Marinus
Barletius). Because of the heroism, bravery and the military tactics he used in that battle, the Turks called him "The second hero Alexander the Great", that is "the Second Alexander the Great". (See with: Bajron, Paganel and Baletius).

Not accidentally, because the armies of Georgija were not composed of Arnauts, as some writers and quasi-historians are trying to distort and forge the history, but of native Macedonian (Mijak) population. Namely at his time, at the time of Georgija, the Gego-Mirdits (Arnaurs) were not present in those areas. The Turks brought them even after about more than hundred years, after 1570 from the district Antalia in Turkey, with a purpose to protect its northern border with one-religion Muslim population. It is an unbeatable historical fact.

It is recommended to the "historian" Bejta and all other "scientists" not to deal with various lies but to look over the official censual documents of XIV, XV and XVI century (The Skadar Katastich of 1416 and the Turkish censual books of the XV and XVI century) to see that at that historical period they did not exist in the areas of today Albania. Even if one would accept the assumption that the Gegs (the Arnauts) were in the Arvanite areas, there was no reason for them to rebel against the Turks, since from their coming in the Balkan regions they were the most privileged ethnic group as well as collaborators in the government, keeping
the Macedonian element obedient by terror and violence.

The best expert in the life and revolutionary deed of Georgija Kastriot,
the Skadar priest-humanist Marinus Barletius, whose study about Georgija was published in 1493, only 26 years after his death, had never used the term Albanians and the country Albania for the population in then Arvania, but Macedonian that is Macedonia (See: Marinus Barletius, Historia de vita.pg. 22, 23, 27, 31, 68, 136, 157, 241, 259, 301, 331, 334, 337 and so on).

Only at some places we meet the term Tribal, which also means Macedonian (Slavic) population. This record testifies that at the time of Georgija Kastriot the term Albania was unknown as well as the term Albanians, not only in this part of the Balkans but in the entire civilized Europe.

Albania got its name later by the strangers- Anglo Saxons who gave the name Albania to all mountainous regions in Europe. (British Albanian, Belgian Albanian, Avstrian Albanian, that is Alpian etc.) which by the Celtic forms Alb, Alp, that is Albanik, means Mountain (See documentary and wider with: Leon Dominian's, Friunters of Language.192).

So mistaken are all today Albanians who think that the name Albania has some national ethnical or people's meaning. Namely the name Albania is a simple geographical notion. If this historical record is unknown to the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), then it is to be known that their real name is-Mountaineers and not some exalted forms and fixed idea, the artificially
imposed name Albania i. e Albanians looking at them as if some national omen not knowing its real etymological meaning. So, not accidentally, their supposed comrades - Shgipetars (Tosks), categorically deny that name, keeping its ancient national people's name. - Shipnija. I. e. Shiptar, so that the Gego-Mirdits (the Arnauts) looked at it irreconcilable and with contempt.

In order to count all arguments, which reject, as groundless, the romantic thesis of the Gego-Mirdits for the supposed Arnautian origin of Georgija we shall need much more space.

First and basic is that all scientists without exception, who wrote about Georgija, more than 220 studies have been written so far, state and prove with arguments that he had "Slavic" and only "Slavic" i. e. Macedonian - Mijak origin.

Second, so far the Mijaks have written over 3200 strophes for Georgija,
his bravery and heroism, out of which 17 epic songs and ballads. A part of those songs praise the Kastriot family, his wife Maria Andronika, better known as Banovica for whom a special ballad was written, as well as the state wisdom and capability of the Duke Georgija.

And the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) did not write any song for "their hero"! No need of any further comment about this.

Third, Georgija was not a Muslim but a faithful Orthodox Christian. He was born and died in a Mijak Orthodox Christian family, evidence are the charters of his father Ivan for the Hilendar monastery. In 1431 his elder brother Reposh was buried in the Hilendar monastery, evidence is the inscription in Old Church Slavic in the narthex of the Hilendar Cathedral with his name and year of his death. This is a sufficiently convincing record about the Kastriot family ties with this ancient Macedonian religious center.

Fourth, in the fierce battles with the Turks, Georgija was not fighting under the flag of "the Eagles", as the Arnautian "scientists" and quasi-historians of Bejta type like to say, but under the Mijak holy flag known as "A flag with a cross", with the symbol of ancient Macedonia on a red field-the Lion! According to a legend in the villages Gorno Melnichani and Pareshe there were about 14 houses of descendants of Georgija' sons, Ivan and Pavle, who kept close family relations with their relatives in the village Simona and in the town Kroja and they visited each other.

All of them" under the pressure of the wild Gegi bandits" during the Balkan wars migrated in Sophia, Salonika and Constantinople. (Kosta Zunguloski, Chronicle notes.2

The name of Kastriot Georgija is related to another very significant
event for the history of the Macedonian people.

Namely, after his death in 1468, over 200.000 Macedonians, members of the Mijak ethnic group, fearing possible revenge from the Turks, through the Rodon Gulf, at the town Leska (now Lesh), migrated, a part of them in Dalmatia and in the Venice Republic and a part in South Italy in the districts - Apulia, Calabria and Sicilia. The native Italian population called the Prishels from Arvania- Galabardnos, that is Golobrdjans (in dialect Golobrzdans), which was understandable, because a great part of those migrators originated from the district Golo Brdo, then from the bottom of the mountain Mokra and the region Chermenika, all of them in now Central Albania. (See with: K.Treimer.Lingvistisch-kultur-historische.447).

Before the end of the XIV century, in those districts, the new immigrated Macedonian population formed its own Orthodox Church municipalities and already at the beginning of the XVI century, in the heart of the Catholic Church the Macedonian orthodox eparchy was formed, known as "Italian orthodox eparchy", its first archbishop was the metropolitan Timotej. Almost three centuries that eparchy was under the Ohrid Archbishopric-Patriarchy at the time when it was the biggest church in the Christian world. Its diocese, consisted of 32 eparchies, extended from Sicilia on the west to Ukraine on the east. (See documentary, chronologically and wider with: I.S.Palamov], New documents.1-31, with: E.E. Golubinskiq, Kratkiq ocherk].120-139 and with Ier.Arseniq, Destiny of the Orthodox Church.80-91).

In order to count all merits by which the duke Georgija Kastriot
obligated Macedonia and the Macedonian nation we shall need much wider space. But the above said is enough to see who was Georgija Kastriot and how great was his real historical role, dimension and significance.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks
The Mijaks (Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_language): Мијаци, Mijaci) are a sub-group of ethnic Macedonians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ethnic_Macedonians) who primarily live in the Mijačija (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Mija%C4%8Dija&action=edit&redlink=1) area, comprising of the Reka (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Reka) and Mala Reka (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Mala_Reka&action=edit&redlink=1) regions, along the Radika (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Radika) river,in the west of Macedonia. They are most notable for their unique style of building and the extent to which old traditions and customs are kept alive by Mijaks.With the migration from village to city many villages now are uninhabited

Garrick
18-01-11, 17:45
THEN YOU ARE RIGHT
IF Sqepar- adz, from Sqep + ar
and the turks also called skeparn in areas like minor Asia smyrna and cappadokia

so then
we go to the other approach

SHQIPTAR = ISH + GIPT + AR means I AM EGYPTIAN g as wh in what if g as k the coptic
cause in byzantine egyptians even today they are called GYPT-IAN and the COPTIC KOPT-ES = COPT-ES
then THAT APPROACH FITS TO YOU,
MEANING THAT SHQIPTAR MEANS EGYPTIAN.

OR ESH + GIPT + AR = FROM EGYPT ???????
also Ash means from but only in east ionic

iapetoc
You brought up that the word Shqiptar, as the Albanians call themselves, can be associated with the word Egyptian!

And now look at one of the latest works of E1b1 haplogroup, which includes E-V13:

Beniamino Trombetta, Fulvio Cruciani, Daniele Sellitto, Rosaria Scozzari

A New Topology of the Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup E1b1 (E-P2) Revealed through the Use of Newly Characterized Binary Polymorphisms

www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016073 (http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0016073)


"Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between twohaplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81,respectively) [6,8,10,13–16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (TableS2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the MiddleEast as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into twobranches separated by the geographic barrier of the MediterraneanSea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2)makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 andE-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups."


The authors think that the E carriers arrived by sea (ships, boats?) fom Africa to the Balkans. It is probably from the territory of today's Egypt and Libya.

So far only talked about the spread of haplogroup E in Europe through the Middle East. What do you think about the idea of Italian scientists? What has been said about it in Greek texts?

Garrick
18-01-11, 18:32
A testimony for the Macedonian character of this family, above all, are the ancient so called Slavic noun suffixes - Slav and slava, like
in the names Brani(slav), Stani(slav), Rado(slava) and Voi(slava) identifying their Macedonian (Slavic) origin. (Compare to: F.Barishik, and the origin of the Slavics.CXLII).

...
He was born and died in a Mijak Orthodox Christian family, evidence are the charters of his father Ivan for the Hilendar monastery. In 1431 his elder brother Reposh was buried in the Hilendar monastery, evidence is the inscription in Old Church Slavic in the narthex of the Hilendar Cathedral with his name and year of his death. This is a sufficiently convincing record about the Kastriot family ties with this ancient Macedonian religious center.

Fourth, in the fierce battles with the Turks, Georgija was not fighting under the flag of "the Eagles", as the Arnautian "scientists" and quasi-historians of Bejta type like to say, but under the Mijak holy flag known as "A flag with a cross", with the symbol of ancient Macedonia on a red field-the Lion! According to a legend in the villages Gorno Melnichani and Pareshe there were about 14 houses of descendants of Georgija' sons, Ivan and Pavle, who kept close family relations with their relatives in the village Simona and in the town Kroja and they visited each other.



There are surnames among the Serbs: Mijač, Mijak, Mijakovac etc., and names Branislav, Radoslav etc. are tipically Serbian.

And some regions and towns about you speak are Serbian, and monastery, if you think of Hilandar monastery on Mount Athos, is the monastery of the Serbian Orthodox Church and not Slavic, Slavic Church don't exist.

However, what you write is very interesting, although unchecked, only if you think it is in line with this theme (that does not wander too wide in relation to the topic).

Garrick
18-01-11, 19:20
It would be interesting to read your thoughts - which one of the languages below is the ancestor language of todays Albanian language:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/77/Balkan-map.png


It is not known.

According Robert Eslie in "Earlies Reference to the Existance of the Albanian Language", the first time Albanian language is referred by Europeans in a period from 1285 to 1332 AD.

iapetoc
18-01-11, 21:52
what has to do real Greek makedonia with tito-bulgares bardaska????
if i give 20 sources then will you ask for sorry???
besides even the catholic church names him greek via PIUS 2 and gregory WTF cant remember,
kastrioti is an internatioal.
besides in kastriotis army were the arbanites suliotes, etc
and some of the families that followed castrioti are today albanians,
and 1 family from montenegro and 1-2 serbian families,
i tired of kastrioti, if i bring you sources you will see never heard before, even turks consider him yunan not rum.
besides his family as aryianites family part of them leaves in Greek macedonia and were among Douka-Comneni.
there are many said about him and your evidence are very small,
i believe he was Greek and i have evidence,
you say he was a slavian
an albanian says he was an albanian,
plz that is propaganda and it is out of subject

Garrick altough i m polytheist i have been to holy mountain and to Hillandar,
i guess you never, at travell most of it 40 times, i love the place, and have been more than 40 times,
but the man wanted to burried in the ancient greek city lissos, today letzh in albania,
now about slavian
there are many orthox chuches,
1 serbian orthodox with patriarch
2 russian orthodox with patriarch
3 bulgarian exarchy no patriarch
and another one in lithuania or moldavia i dont remember
All these speak slavian
as hilandar is the serbian the provata is the rumanian erea
the panteleimon is russian and
iviron the georgian
vatopedi the cyprus
zografou the bulgarian

kastrioti was orthodox thats why the rome gave him only 3 000 small golden coins and no man,
that is why the tarantines was hes west enemy, and claim the catholic albania via Alba of anju,
the war there was between 4
1 kastrioti
2 normands italians princes etc
3 turks
4 baraba pasa for whom greek arbanites consider him the betrayal, 'amoirousis' of the west
besides his son was supported by palaiologos warriors like crocodile kladas

ok plz stop it kastrioti besides here i live there are villages that came from kastrioti army, which in 1750 unite with moesian vlachs and make an indipedent area, and it was ali pasa who fought with them,

Garrick
18-01-11, 23:31
what has to do real Greek makedonia with tito-bulgares bardaska????
if i give 20 sources then will you ask for sorry???
besides even the catholic church names him greek via PIUS 2 and gregory WTF cant remember,
kastrioti is an internatioal.
besides in kastriotis army were the arbanites suliotes, etc
and some of the families that followed castrioti are today albanians,
and 1 family from montenegro and 1-2 serbian families,
i tired of kastrioti, if i bring you sources you will see never heard before, even turks consider him yunan not rum.
besides his family as aryianites family part of them leaves in Greek macedonia and were among Douka-Comneni.
there are many said about him and your evidence are very small,
i believe he was Greek and i have evidence,
you say he was a slavian
an albanian says he was an albanian,
plz that is propaganda and it is out of subject

Garrick altough i m polytheist i have been to holy mountain and to Hillandar,
i guess you never, at travell most of it 40 times, i love the place, and have been more than 40 times,
but the man wanted to burried in the ancient greek city lissos, today letzh in albania,
now about slavian
there are many orthox chuches,
1 serbian orthodox with patriarch
2 russian orthodox with patriarch
3 bulgarian exarchy no patriarch
and another one in lithuania or moldavia i dont remember
All these speak slavian
as hilandar is the serbian the provata is the rumanian erea
the panteleimon is russian and
iviron the georgian
vatopedi the cyprus
zografou the bulgarian

kastrioti was orthodox thats why the rome gave him only 3 000 small golden coins and no man,
that is why the tarantines was hes west enemy, and claim the catholic albania via Alba of anju,
the war there was between 4
1 kastrioti
2 normands italians princes etc
3 turks
4 baraba pasa for whom greek arbanites consider him the betrayal, 'amoirousis' of the west
besides his son was supported by palaiologos warriors like crocodile kladas

ok plz stop it kastrioti besides here i live there are villages that came from kastrioti army, which in 1750 unite with moesian vlachs and make an indipedent area, and it was ali pasa who fought with them,

iapetoc
Great on this clarification, you are made clear to us another important issue.

I mostly wrote because the monastery, since Chilandar is the monastery of the Serbian Orthodox Church.

Of course, every Slavic Orthodox country has its own church and the Patriarchate, but there is no some kind of unique Slavic Orthodox Church.

No, I was not there, you're completely right, I've been in Greece several times, and certainly I will go many more times, Greece is a beautiful country, and one day I will be intend to visit Mount Athos.

But, I agree not to depart too much from the topic.

I'm interested in what you think about the idea of Italian scholars that E carriers from Africa arrived by sea from Africa to the Balkans, and is there something to talk about ancient Greek texts?

DejaVu
18-01-11, 23:38
"There are surnames among the Serbs: Mijač, Mijak, Mijakovac etc., and names Branislav, Radoslav etc. are tipically Serbian."
What have the names to do with the Mijak Tribe?
Did the Mijak tribe speak and write Serbian or did they claim their serbian identity?

Serbians are invented history like the rest of the neighbours of Macedonia.
Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Albania is fake countries with fake population.
Cyrillic alphabet, slavic language, to get an independent church, all this was given to the Serbs by the Macedonians.
These countries use Macedonian traditional songs, history and make them as their own. Once the Serbs where slavs, white serbs, old serbs, yugoslavs, montenegrins, rascians and again serbs if you dont know what you are, why change the name of your country? Neither was the location of the country and people they claim belonging to on same place and no genetics that prove your slavic ancestry, if so link to the slavic DNA. If you want to play with word matching that is your own problems. We dont believe in word matching neither do the rest here on the forum.


Tsar Stefan Dushan (Macedonian Tsar?)

In Skopje in 1349 Stefan Dushan issued its own Code, which, unfortunately, is not preserved in original, but dozen copies were saved and that’s how we get the information about this historic figure.
Dushan's Code begins with the words "Code of Reverend and in Christ loving Macedonian Tsar Stefan,Serbian ruler, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Vlach, Dalmatian, Arbanas, and many other regions and countries." This is noted in the Zagrebian (Croatian), Ravanician (Serbia), Sofian (Bulgaria) transcript of Dushan's Code. Dushan's Code with Stefan Dusan as a Macedonian king to be find in the book the Lj. Stojanovic: (Lj. Stojanovic, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi. Knj. III, Beograd 1905, p. 41 (nbr.4949).) Even the famous Edith Durham in her book "High Albania", first edition, printed in the distant 1909 talk about the Macedonians, where she quoted Dushan's Code "Code of Tsar Dusan Macedonian, autocrat of Serbia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Wallachia, .." (Edith Durham, "High Albania" First published in 1909, page 294. In London Edward Arnold Publishers to the India Office 1909).

King Dusan proclaimed himself for Macedonian king, but not because he was Macedonian, but for someone to proclaim himself a king, or emperor in medieval times had to take the crown of a kingdom that existed previously. And what kingdom would that be if not the kingdom of Samuel! Knowing that Kosara, daughter of Samuel married DuklaPrince John Vladimir, who was a prisoner at Samuil's royal palace. However, lucky for him, thanks to the love of Kosara, he was pardoned and became son in-law of Samuel, but also part of the family.
Is there any greater evidence that would challenge the contention of some Bulgarian historians that Samuil’s state was Bulgarian? According to medieval law, the king's crown could be obtained only from the patriarch. When Emperor Dusan governed the whole territory of Macedonia in his state was found two autocephalous Archbishopry, the one of Ohrid and Pech. Soon Dusan decided to proclaim himself a king. Therefore it was necessary the Pech archdiocese to be declared for patriarchate. It was helped by the Ohrid Archbishop and the TrnovoPatriarch. The both Holy Synods and the Patriarch of Trnovo came, and both of them proclaimed Joannicius II for patriarch, and then the three church dignitaries coronate Dusan in a king. The participation of the Macedonian superior - Ohrid Archbishop was considered as a substitute for the Ecumenical Patriarch, who canceled his attendance in the coronation. Any changes in the Serbian state and church were done with the participation and the blessing of the Macedonian archbishop.
Whether in this case we should close our eyes when the same Macedonian church today is denied? This historical fact, in the 19th century disturbed the Serbian intelligence, which was in its infancy, that’s why there are many falsifications of the Serbian medieval documents in their re-publishing in the 19th century.

Mikloshich Franz, who along with Vuk Karadzic for the first time published documents of the medieval Serbian history, in the monumental work "Monumenta Serbica", the title of King Dusan from the Sofian and Ravanic entry is communicated as "Stephen the faithful in Lord Christ and Greek King" (F. Miklošič, Monumenta Serbica, str 154). But in the transcripts of Dushan's Code clearly states “Stephen the faithful in Lord Christ and Macedonian King". From there comes our suspicion, that wherever is mentioned the Macedonian name, Serbian historians and transcribers of the Serbian medieval documents of the 19th century, the word "Macedonian" where replacing with "Greek" or "Romaic”. To this we can add the historical fact of King Dusan published in the oldest history of South Slavic peoples" Historia Turcica "(1502) from Petanchich Felix (from Dubrovnik), who was miniaturist and manager of Budim scriptorium and primarily an outstanding diplomat at the court of Matija Korvin and Vladislav II. In "Historia Turcica" is stated that King Dusan is king of the Macedonians and Rascians, in original "Macedonum Rasianorum Caesar" (Historia Turcica (1502), Municipal Library in Nuremberg, 31.2). Petanchich Felix (1455-1517) is considered one of the best turkologyst of all time. Unfortunately, Tsar Dusan in our history books is presented as the king of the Serbs and Greeks, ie. in the propaganda which our neighbors are serving for our history since the 19th century. Furthermore, King Volkasin (father of King Mark) and his brother Uglesha in the Synodicon of Tsar Boril (Boril's Synodicon) from the 14th century, is represented as a Macedonian king. I do not know the reason why in our history textbooks do not tell this fact and our children learn that the current Macedonian are pure Slavs, and began to call themselves Macedonians until the 19th century, that we are a new nation and that we, as Slavs, are so close with the Serbs and Bulgarians, perhaps so we can dissolve in their nations.
I have never seen another nation except Macedonian to deny itself despite the historical written documents and facts about its existence.


Victor A Friedman

"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"

Victor Friedman received his B.A. in Russian Language and Literature from Reed College in 1970 and his Ph. D. in both Slavic Languages and Literatures and in General Linguistics from the University of Chicago in 1975. This was the first joint degree granted in the Division of the Humanities at Chicago, and his dissertation, “The Grammatical Categories of the Macedonian Indicative” won the Mark Perry Galler prize for the best dissertation in the Humanities Division that year. From 1975 to 1993 he taught in the Department of Slavic Languages at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, where he chaired the Department from 1987 to 1993. In 1993 he moved to the University of Chicago, where he is Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities with a joint appointment in Linguistics and Slavic Languages and Literatures and an associate appointment in Anthropology. He has over 200 publications, and The Grammatical Categories of the Macedonian Indicative (Slavica, 1977) was the first book on Modern Macedonian published in the United States.

Friedman has done fieldwork in the Balkans for over thirty-five years and has received research grants from Fulbright-Hays, IREX, ACLS, NEH, APS, etc. In 1982 he received the "1300 Years of Bulgaria" jubilee medal for contributions to the field of Bulgarian studies. In 1991 and again in 2003, he was awarded the University of Skopje Gold Plaque for contributions to the field of Macedonian studies, and in 1994 he was elected to the Macedonian Academy of Arts and Sciences. In 1995 he was elected to Matica Srpska, and in 2004 he was elected to the Academy of Arts and Sciences of Kosova. During the Yugoslav Wars of Succession, he worked as a Senior Policy and Political Analyst for the Analysis and Assessment Unit of the United Nations Protection Forces stationed in former Yugoslavia (summer 1994), joined a fact finding mission for the South Balkan Project of the Center for Preventive Action of the Council on Foreign Relations (1995-1997), consulted for the International Crisis Group (1997), and did some work with the United States Institute for Peace (1999-2000). He has been a visiting scholar at Cornell (Balkan linguistics, LSA summer institute 1997), University of Skopje (Balkan Identity, 1999), Central European University-Budapest (Romani linguistics 1999, 2001, 2003), Kyoto University (Balkan linguistics, 1999), National University of Malaysia (Southeast Europe/Southeast Asia: Comparative Perspectives, 2000), University of Helsinki (Balkan linguistics, 2000), University of Prishtina (Balkan and Caucasian linguistics, 2002), and LaTrobe University (Research Center for Linguistic Typology, Balkan linguistics, 2004).

Friedman’s research centers on grammatical categories (particularly the verb), language contact, and sociolinguistics (especially problems of variation and standardization) in the Balkans and the Caucasus. Owing to the intimate connections of language with politics and ethnic identity in these parts of the world, his work has of necessity been interdisciplinary. His publications deal with the following languages: Albanian, Aromanian (Vlah), Azeri, Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (especially the Torlak dialects), Bulgarian, Georgian, Greek, Judezmo, Lak, Macedonian, Megleno-Romanian, Romani, Romanian, Russian, Tadjik, Turkish.

"We know what Ancient Greek, Latin, and Old Church Slavonic, and Sanskrit look liked, and we have Turkic texts going back to the 8th century. We know what these languages looked like in the early medieval period. For Albanian, our oldest significant texts are from the early modern period. We know these changes, these grammatical influences, were taking place in the late medieval and early Ottoman periods (although some are older in some languages). It was really in the Ottoman period that the Balkan languages as we know them today came to resemble one another."

"The Bulgarians didn’t have a state until the Russo-Turkish War of 1878."

"Arvanatika - Most precisely, it refers to the Albanian dialects of Greece that separated from the main body of Tosk Albanian 600-1000 years ago. The dialects were spoken on many Greek islands, the Peloponnese, and in Attica and Central Greece. Greeks don’st like to admit it, but they have had large Albanian-speaking populations for a very long time, not just post-Communist economic migrants. While these dialects are now moribund owing to hegemonistic Greek language policies, they can still be encountered in places like Livadhia."

"But already in the 19th century, Macedonian speakers were calling themselves Macedonians (Makedontsi), their language, Makedonski. This is documented.
Some Macedonian speakers identified as Bulgarians,Serbs, Greeks or Turks, depending on religious loyalties, but most of the time, speakers called themselves Christians or Turks (Muslims)."


This shows that todays inhabitants of the modern balkan countries are of mixed origin = all.

DejaVu
19-01-11, 00:00
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups)
Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups
Listed here are notable ethnic groups (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ethnic_groups) by Y-DNA (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Y-DNA) haplogroups (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroups) based on relevant studies. The data is presented in two columns for each haplogroup with the first being the sample size (n) and the second the percentage in the haplogroup designated by the column header. The samples are taken from individuals identified with the ethnic and linguistic designations in the first two columns.


E1b1b

Albania: 21.6% & 25.5% (2 tests)
Kosovo: 47.4%
Greece: 20.8%, 23.8% & 31.6% (3 tests)
Macedonia (FYROM): 24.1%
Bulgaria: 20.7%
Serbia: 21.2%
Croatia: 5.6%
Egypt: 43.5%

Elias2
19-01-11, 00:34
Serbians are invented history like the rest of the neighbours of Macedonia.
Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Albania is fake countries with fake population.
Cyrillic alphabet, slavic language, to get an independent church, all this was given to the Serbs by the Macedonians.


Your ultra-nationalism hurts my head, put down the drugs and go for a walk. Cyril and methodil were Greek speaking Romans from thessaloniki that gave the slavs their own alphabet in order to faster christianize them, as they resisted the pressure to learn Greek being pushed on them from Constantinople. This alphabet was based of the greek alphabet. These slavs that moved into the region were no more macedonian than serbians and bulgarians.

Bulgaria lost the second balkan war, get over it, its over, macedonia is back into greek hands. Tito is dead, yet his zombies still walk the earth.

Garrick
19-01-11, 01:10
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h..._ethnic_groups (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups)
Y-DNA haplogroups by ethnic groups
Listed here are notable ethnic groups (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ethnic_groups) by Y-DNA (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Y-DNA) haplogroups (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroups) based on relevant studies. The data is presented in two columns for each haplogroup with the first being the sample size (n) and the second the percentage in the haplogroup designated by the column header. The samples are taken from individuals identified with the ethnic and linguistic designations in the first two columns.


E1b1b

Albania: 21.6% & 25.5% (2 tests)
Kosovo: 47.4%
Greece: 20.8%, 23.8% & 31.6% (3 tests)
Macedonia (FYROM): 24.1%
Bulgaria: 20.7%
Serbia: 21.2%
Croatia: 5.6%
Egypt: 43.5%

There are recent studies for E haplogroup in Europe in which, for example:

Nort Albania 41,21%

Serbia 17,3% (about 16% of the population Serbia are minorities)

Montenegro 27,0% (Montenegro population belongs to various ethnic groups)

for Romania the data are different, but less than 20% if you gathered all.


According to data, E haplogroup in Europe is dominant in Gege Albanians (North Albania, Western Macedonia, South Montenegro, South Serbia etc.).

Yes, according to data in Egypt E haplogroup is most widespread.

Garrick
19-01-11, 01:16
"Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Albania is fake countries with fake population.


Nobody is fake.

DejaVu
19-01-11, 01:16
"There are recent studies for E haplogroup in Europe"
Is it hard to link source?

Maybe they are not fake but not homogenous either. We dont know how many people are connected from the first beginning of the period of a country´s historical existence that means all countries must rewrite from what period they are claiming and how they connect to it.
Today its all about the right of self-detemination and that have nothing to do with real origin.

Garrick
19-01-11, 01:25
"There are recent studies for E haplogroup in Europe"
Is it hard to link source?

Yes, of course.


For Serbia and Montenegro is American study:

Sheyla Mirabal et al

Human Y-chromosome short tandem repeats: A tale of acculturation and migrations as mechanisms for the diffusion of agriculture in the Balkan Peninsula

American Journal of Physical Anthropology

Volume 142, Issue 3, (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.v142:3/issuetoc)pages 380–390, July 2010


You have the topic about it and link.

Elias2
19-01-11, 01:32
Today its all about the right of self-detemination and that have nothing to do with real origin.

Self-dertermination is fine, self-determination purely for land claims on neighbours? we have a problem.

Garrick
19-01-11, 02:10
Maybe they are not fake but not homgenous either. We dont know how many people are connected from the first beginning of the period of a country´s historical existence that means all countries must rewrite from what period they are claiming and how they connect to it.
Today its all about the right of self-detemination and that have nothing to do with real origin.

If you think about haplogroups the situation is different.

But keep in mind haplogroups tell us about the origin but not a nation in the modern sense.

In Serbia total I haplogroup is 47,97%, if you take into account the minorities in Serbia (16%) this means that it is very likely that over 50% of Serbs in Serbia have Haplogroup I.

For Bulgaria according to the available data is mixed, but that does not conclude anything, probably new study is needed.

For Montenegro, the data was surprising, it is big mix, I and E are the most abundant and approximately equal, without a dominant haplogroups.

For Albania and neighboring countries inhabited by Albanians seem to be different haplogroups for Gega and Tosca, according to the data in Gega E haplogroup is a dominant.

I think, in Romania I haplogroup is dominant (about more than 40%) but the data among studies are different.

You can see the data for Macedonia FYROM:

I 29,1%,
E 24,1%,
R1a 15,2%,
J 5,3% etc.

I think about such data because it is a mixed ethnic country where ethnic Albanians make up about 25% of the population, and the ethnic Turks have a significant number in the population.

Probably the data is different among different ethnic groups.

iapetoc
19-01-11, 02:55
well garick and to all of you

we have a big E concentration in continent greece from south until kossyfopedio (kossovo-kossova) to north, mixed with big J2

with lingua approach we have enough but early homerick (100 -300 years after homer)
but also many other,

I gonna put my 3 possible solutions

1 is the approach mycene-mysian-moesian (probably 4 maken-to ->makedo)
according that the E from lydia had alliance with Troy and then stayed in mysian and then to moesia, and because i know gegs get married only gegs stayed in high retraction, and arbanitet just add a 10% to Greek E-V13,
that can expain a many turkish words via Hetit,
BUT MAYBE TURKISH PAS WHEN ISLAMIZATION DONE AT 1500 AD

IF that is correct then we have the approach by Greece,
If we look first cyprus habitation is 10 000 BC
probably a connection via ly and car leads to greece,
the possibilty that, that times people were nomads, maybe via cyprus pass to cilykia to lydia (maybe mistaken lybia) to peloponese (corinth-carinth) and from there via inland until dardania,
it is one approach but low E-V13 in minor asia especially south does not makes it correct,
so we go by sea

3a) via cypruss
3b) straight from africa,

3a) via cyprus is maybe a solution cause cyprus means copper in greek, cypruss also connected with midlle east J2, probably an Egyprian and a Phoenician

but from what i know
in Greece there were 2 civilizations before,
1 cyclades cycladetic civilization
4000 BC
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclades

mysterious object is that of the Cycladic frying pans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frying_pans). More accurate archaeology has revealed the broad outlines of a farming and seafaring culture that had immigrated from Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor) ca 5000 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_millennium_BCE).
modern scientist connect them with phoenician lebanese culture, but not total,
it was a J2 civilization clear,
but south was crete,
in crete we know
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=87b5bHxDrps&feature=related
that until the union under 1 king we had many wars and invasion,
also in crete we know that a big bargain was among cyprus and Egypt and Hetits,
also that palaces were build with an architecture probably Libyan, and areas like ΣΗΤΕΙΑ Setia reminds us Egyptian god Set or the Adams son Seth
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Set_%28mythology%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seth

Also linear A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A
Though the two scripts – Linear A and B – share some of the same symbols, using the syllables (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllable) associated with Linear B in Linear A writings produces words that are unrelated to any known language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language). This language has been dubbed Minoan and corresponds to a period in Cretan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) history (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History) prior to a series of invasions by Mycenaean Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greeks) around 1450 BC.
Linear A seems to have been used as a complete syllabary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syllabary) around 1900–1800 BC, although several signs appear as mason marks earlier. It is possible that the Trojan Linear A scripts (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Trojan_script&action=edit&redlink=1) discovered by Heinrich Schliemann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinrich_Schliemann) and one inscription from central Crete, as well as a few similar potters' marks from Lahun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lahun), Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) (12th dynasty) come from an earlier period, ca. 2100–1900 BC, which is the period of the construction of the first palaces.


connection is more with lydia and etruscans,


watch stone

cretan la = stone
labrys the stone axe
labyrinth of gortyna a stone minning area
larissa either stone nose either stone minning (ris is nose but re- means flux re-o re-ma)
!!!! Lapithes a tribe lived north of Larissa south of olymp biten By Hrcules and went to south Illyria (today liapi-des) the Ali-pasa tribe,


Lapis the latin stone
mont Albani in Latin probably mont Lab-ani and change via time or new lingua


the cretan pre-greek language was similar to lemnos or troy,
close to phoenician but relative to Lydian or Etruscan as you Read
A NON IE LANGUAGE




But the aytochonus J2 almost >40% ??
probably made after the volcano of thera explosion,
But the E in south West cret Kydon and generally in the west were invansions were done by achaic and doric leads more that E came from peloponese,

THAT IS THE MOST CORRECT FROM ME,
E-V13 STARTED FROM SOUTH GREECE
AND INVADED AREAS

Reasons to believe

1. crete has no god Athena and bull worship and most J2 thracian
ithaka and peloponese had goddess Athena probably Neith or Tanit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith

2 megalithic structures build in mycenae are 3500 or older
The big pyramid that can be seen from far away sea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqZOOMmFKRk&feature=related

besides Mycenae and minyans and minoans maybe have a connection
example syllabic
ko no so = knosos (crete) also ko no = konos = pyramid
mi ko no = mycenae city or pyramid of mi
mi ny ia or mi ne ia sea city harbor ne-o means sail nafs the boat
or the other is maximum and minimum
meaning that mycenae was capital and the rest smaller kingdoms

3 Theba altough similar with egyptian thebes, has nothing to do cause named after greeks
but cadmus phoinix cilix europa???
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus
The Greeks attributed the foundation of Thebes to Cadmus, a Phoenician king from Tyre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon) (now in Lebanon) and the brother of Queen Europa. Cadmus was famous for teaching the Phoenician alphabet and building the Acropolis, which was named the Cadmeia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmeia) in his honor and was an intellectual, spiritual, and cultural center. Archaeological excavations in and around Thebes have revealed cist graves dated to Mycenaean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece) times containing weapons, ivory, and tablets written in Linear B (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_B). Its name in the local tablets, and in tablets found in Mycenae, was transliterated TE-QA-I (TH Ft 140.1) understood to be read as *Tʰēgʷai (Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) Θῆβαι Thēbai), and TE-QA-DE (MY X 508; TH Wu 65.a) for *Tʰēgʷasde (Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) Θήβασδε Thēbasde).

but also QA has to do with makedonian AIGAI GOATS AND AEGEAN PELAGO

now watch
Amphion married Niobe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niobe),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amphion
niobe may noibe -> nubian nubian is libya
that means that E-V13 was here at 2000 BC

or in case that niobe means nio-be niobia
means fresh woman or Swimmer
the above is wrong

the most to believe is that E-V13 has to do with 3500 when mycenae was build

now from theba start illyros an invasion

BUT
According to the Library and Epitome of Apollodorus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollodorus), Illyrius was the youngest son of Cadmus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus) and Harmonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harmonia) who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eponymous) ancestor of the whole Illyrian people.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius#cite_note-0) Illyrius was specifically born during an expedition against the Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) on the side of the Encheleans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Encheleans).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius#cite_note-1)

According to the Illyrian Wars of Appian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appian), Illyrius was the son of the Cyclops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclops) Polyphemus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphemus) and his wife Galatea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea) with siblings Celtus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtus) and Galas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galas). The children of Polyphemus all migrated from Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily) and ruled over the peoples named after them, the Celts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts), the Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), and the Galatians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gauls).[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius#cite_note-2) This particular genealogy was most likely composed by the ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) founders of Epidamnus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidamnus) (Corinthians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Corinth) and Corcyrans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corcyra)) and preserved in Appian's work.[/URL]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius#cite_note-3)
Προς τα τέλη της ζωής τους, οι γονείς του Ιλλυριού, αλλά και ο ίδιος, έφυγαν από τη Θήβα (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%98%CE%AE%CE%B2%CE%B1) και πήγαν στην Ιλλυρία, έχοντας πάρει τη μορφή φιδιών (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%A6%CE%AF%CE%B4%CE%B9) ή δρακόντων. Εκεί πέθαναν και εκεί ενταφιάσθηκαν. Τους «τάφους» τους, τους έδειχναν στους ιστορικούς χρόνους της αρχαιότητας.
http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%99%CE%BB%CE%BB%CF%85%CF%81%CE%B9%CF%8C%CF%82
Draco or Drago is serpent like creature that means the big chief
draco is the ruler of oligarchy system like goths law and also were these rulers are buried, each family has its own draco symbol,
according greek dracon also worshiped in palestine and athenes,
drago also is cursed graved of a Big warrior or king,
now according Greeks parents of illyrus went to illyria and until christianity their tombs were knowed and exhibit.

[U]THAT MEANS PROBABLY BROUGHT FROM SICILY AT About 1800 BC

in that case E-V13 came from sicily and went south


I BELIEVE THAT E-V13 CAME AT 4000 - 3500 Via Sea by africa

and with J2 And R (IE) carriers create THE GREEKS

The difference of language has to do either with isolation or IEnism of Greece,
meaning that after illyrus went away theba Greece made a new language and dardano-illyrians make another with more thracian and latino roman
and turkish lingua enters at Kastrioti time when islamization enters
meaning that if legend is correct then



E-carriers came at 3500 Bc about and travell with J2 north to Illyria

or E-carriers came 1800 BC To illyria from sicelia and from there south.

the last possibility that i dont find with much % to be true

But that makes me WONDER

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53Eoy1RWF9A&feature=related

BALKAN PEOPLE KNEW TO WRITE AND BUILD BEFORE 6000 BC
then WTF IE language???????
thrasian language travel even britain, (42% similar greek)
And all the rest simply learn and carry thracian language!!! just thinking or wonder !!!

4. at 700-900 AD
there is mass genocide of Greeks by Orthodox christians from 476 to 1100 AD
from illyria to syria to egypt,
later islamization of north africa probably sent christians E-V13 from egypt to balkans
from orthodox Byzantines,
probably has to do that they opened space for african christians and exterminated Greeks as pagans, or with the arabs and normand in sicily
that expalines the allow to every arber defore even arber EXISTS
to inhabbit attica (emperor gave land only to christians)

state of arber 1190 AD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Arb%C3%ABr
but the support from arbanites to georgios maniakis Γεωργιος Μανιακης
as the 1 license to immigrate attica at 1080 Ad By Alexios A Komnenos
the 2nd at 1210 about by latins
probably migration with normands conguering south italy and push to New arber (old arber is in dalmatia) known history create mass movement,

But the lack of some E to Aimos peninsula makes me believe that is not correct

if someone can help me to that then ok

SO MY PREVIOUS BELIEVE THAT THEY ARE HERE WITH J2 FROM 3500 BC
Or came from sicilly at almost 1800 BC althought i m not convinced for the last

if anyone denies that christians genocide Greeks tell me to send sources, more than 10 000 000

iapetoc
19-01-11, 03:03
ok guys MAKEDONIA IS ONE AND IS GREEK,
TETOVO BELONGS TO ALBANIA
KUMANOVO TO SERBIA
STRUMNITSA TO BULGARIA
AND KEEP THE CHANGE DONT NEED LIES IN MY COUNTRY

besides i write a text and waiting approval

DejaVu
19-01-11, 03:41
This is Macedonia and does not belong to any occupants. All are free to live there as anywhere else.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)

Modern Macedonia is divided (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(terminology)#Subregions) by the national boundaries of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) (Greek Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece))), the Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia), Bulgaria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgaria) (Blagoevgrad Province (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Blagoevgrad_Province)), Albania (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albania) (Mala Prespa and Golo Brdo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mala_Prespa_and_Golo_Brdo)), Serbia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbia) (Prohor Pčinjski (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prohor_P%C4%8Dinjski) and Gora (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Gora_(region))).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Greater_Macedonia.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/39/Greater_Macedonia.png)

Borders of Macedonia according to different authors (1843–1927)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png/800px-Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png)

Sklaviniae in Medieval Macedonia c. 700 AD.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/05/Macodnian_Sklavinia.png

Expansion of Macedon in to a kingdom
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/95/ExpansionOfMacedon.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF/800px-Greekhistory.GIF (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF)

Dont want to continue with unrelevant propagande crap, the tread was about the connection between Berbers and Albanians haplogroup E.

iapetoc
19-01-11, 03:45
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Macedonian_Kingdom.jpgno just tell me is skopjie a place that true makedons ever lived?
did we pass iron gates? demir kapu?

what are showing me the map of roman makadonia?

show me maps of nation makedonia

MAKEDONIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26169&page=3
is that the same map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg

Garrick
19-01-11, 03:47
iapetoc
It is known, according to historical sources, that Makednoi were the Doric tribe.

But I think you agree that we should stick to the theme, if we open questions that are not closely related to the topic we lose focus.

Somewhere you wrote about different ways Gega and Tosca, and according new researching there are significant differences between their haplogroups, could you clarify what you mean?

Garrick
19-01-11, 04:06
DejaVu
There are topics on which issues about which you write can be discussed and may be new topics.

But please that we keep to this theme here.

iapetoc
19-01-11, 04:15
Garrick i wrote a big but waiting aprovall sais

i checked 4 posibilities and seems that E came before 5500 or 3500 BC via peloponese Main, also believe not crete

or at 1800 BC via sicily

or at 1042 AD with george maniakis and normands via sicily

about tosk and gege diference its more in syntax, and we can found it in early albanian about before 1920,

guys it was big 4 hour writing why does not showing it

chech out the mess, its full of E

mess-ara in crete invasion by achaic
mess-enia in peloponese
mess-apic language in apulia
mess-ene in sicily


sory that is from above

MAKEDONIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=er5RLk7TM6Q&feature=related

Garrick
19-01-11, 04:52
Garrick i wrote a big but waiting aprovall sais

i checked 4 posibilities and seems that E came at 5500-3500 BC via peloponese Main, also believe not crete

or at 1800 BC via sicily

or at 1042 AD with george maniakis and normands via sicily

about tosk and gege diference its more in syntax, and we can found it in early albanian about before 1920,

guys it was big 4 hour writing why does not showing it

I really do not know which post you mean, it seems I lost time and energy to issues not related to the topic.

Realistically your posts here are very hardworking, excellent analysis.

And you set assumption that the name Shqiptar derived from Egyptian, but now intrigues me three things:

1) According Ferri et al, among Gege and Tosk is a big difference in haplogroups, Gege have dominant E and in Tosk have no dominant one haplogroup.

2) According Robert Eslie in "Earlies Reference to the Existence of the Albanian Language", the first time Albanian language is referred by Europeans in the period from 1285 to 1332 AD.

3) According to the Italian study (the latest post other party themes), the question is whether E holders come from Africa by sea.

What's in this can be related?

iapetoc
19-01-11, 05:05
and for some smart quys
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Banovine_Jugoslavia.png

VARDAR BANOVINE what makedonia and ..... green horses

Besides VUKEFALAS ΒΟΥΚΕΦΑΛΑΣ WAS A HORSE
NOT A ZASTAVA
AND HIS NAME WAS NOT BOLGLAVATA BUT ΒΟΥΚΕΦΑΛΑΣ

razbiras? sfati? razumeo? kuptohet?

iapetoc
19-01-11, 05:36
the possibility that came from egypt
is at time 5500 but little strange sea, means by land,

or at 3500 BC in peloponese not crete and make the Pyramid so high that can be seen by sea,

or at 1800 BC via sicilly to illyria,
the epidamnians mentioned that after illyros a nation came from sicily with cyclops
but in illyria before christianity they knew and show the tube of illyros and the draco, of hes fathers,
now why not today?????? churches know

drago is a knife as serpent that has only the leader of a clan-familly
dragon was the oligarchy law at athenes
dragon was a god of philistine
and draco is the tomb of a drago or a clan

we can find drago and draco even in moesia and romania.
also in minor asia ionia lydia even to lycaonia ....
draco later named kulla from turkish kalle


a small chance is that an extra E came at sicily at about 1000 AD and via george maniakis and normands from durress-dyrachium-epidamnus pass even to thessalonike
and revolt against Con/polis
That is story of anna komnene and michael attaleiates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Comnena
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Attaleiates
but i find it impossible that a small part from an ex big army to be so big as millions today.
as i find impossible that did not have all the types of north africa E,
so the last approach is just to be mentioned and not to be consider as correct

so we go back to 1800 or at 3500 or at 5500,
i strongly believe the 3500 BC as the correct
via south peloponese were built a pyramid at top of a mountain (3600-3000 BC) so as to be seen by the sea

why not crete,
cause godess Athena is godess Neith and Tanit, and in crete minoans never worshipe her a lot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith

and athena was a western islands godess which later pass to athenes

the possibilty if years are correct that illyros was born at about 2000 BC almost before theba walls was build or before, after cadmeia was built, blablah 4 hours i was writting and missed

besides it was the minoans who went to egypt and build avaris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avaris

i m not a genetist but a mt DNA could help us more,
if someone knows the origin and expansion of mtDNA in balkans, maybe can give more light

Garrick
19-01-11, 19:56
... Haplogroup E V13 is the Genetic Marker of Neolithic Farmers which flooded the Balkans and Europe 10 000 - 15 000 Years ago.

sturmgewehr
So it was thought before, these times are long since reduced.

Cruciani et al, 2007 as a possible arrival time E carriers in the Balkans state between 4000 and 4700 year, and some authors placed this time even closer to our days.


"The TMRCA ofthe European E-V13 chromosomes turns out to be 4.0–4.7 ky (under 2 different demographic expansion scenarios,see Subjects and Methods; 95% CI 3.5–4.6 ky and 4.1–5.3ky, respectively).

These results open the possibility of recognizingtime windows for ... population movements from western Asia into Europeand later within Europe."

how yes no 2
19-01-11, 20:58
Serbians are invented history like the rest of the neighbours of Macedonia.
Serbia, Bulgaria, Greece and Albania is fake countries with fake population.
Cyrillic alphabet, slavic language, to get an independent church, all this was given to the Serbs by the Macedonians.
These countries use Macedonian traditional songs, history and make them as their own. Once the Serbs where slavs, white serbs, old serbs, yugoslavs, montenegrins, rascians and again serbs if you dont know what you are, why change the name of your country? ]

right...whole world is invented except Macedonians...
grow up...


and for some smart quys
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d9/Banovine_Jugoslavia.png

VARDAR BANOVINE what makedonia and ..... green horses

Besides VUKEFALAS ΒΟΥΚΕΦΑΛΑΣ WAS A HORSE
NOT A ZASTAVA
AND HIS NAME WAS NOT BOLGLAVATA BUT ΒΟΥΚΕΦΑΛΑΣ

razbiras? sfati? razumeo? kuptohet?

Macedonians have that name for several centuries at least, and probably much more than you can stand it...

Vardarska banovina was administrative unit in first Yugoslavia that included Macedonia and south Serbia. Whole idea was to avoid division on national entities and to introduce administrative districts with mixed population whose names were mostly given by main rivers in area. In such a division there is no Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia either....instead there are districts named mostly after rivers: Zetska banovina, Drinska banovina, Moravska banovina, Savska banovina....

Talking about Macedonians as Vardarska banovina is just very cheap propaganda not based on facts.

Garrick
19-01-11, 21:46
the possibility that came from egypt
is at time 5500 but little strange sea, means by land,

or at 3500 BC in peloponese not crete and make the Pyramid so high that can be seen by sea,

or at 1800 BC via sicilly to illyria,
the epidamnians mentioned that after illyros a nation came from sicily with cyclops
but in illyria before christianity they knew and show the tube of illyros and the draco, of hes fathers,
now why not today?????? churches know

drago is a knife as serpent that has only the leader of a clan-familly
dragon was the oligarchy law at athenes
dragon was a god of philistine
and draco is the tomb of a drago or a clan

we can find drago and draco even in moesia and romania.
also in minor asia ionia lydia even to lycaonia ....
draco later named kulla from turkish kalle


a small chance is that an extra E came at sicily at about 1000 AD and via george maniakis and normands from durress-dyrachium-epidamnus pass even to thessalonike
and revolt against Con/polis
That is story of anna komnene and michael attaleiates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Comnena
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Attaleiates
but i find it impossible that a small part from an ex big army to be so big as millions today.
as i find impossible that did not have all the types of north africa E,
so the last approach is just to be mentioned and not to be consider as correct

so we go back to 1800 or at 3500 or at 5500,
i strongly believe the 3500 BC as the correct
via south peloponese were built a pyramid at top of a mountain (3600-3000 BC) so as to be seen by the sea

why not crete,
cause godess Athena is godess Neith and Tanit, and in crete minoans never worshipe her a lot
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neith

and athena was a western islands godess which later pass to athenes

the possibilty if years are correct that illyros was born at about 2000 BC almost before theba walls was build or before, after cadmeia was built, blablah 4 hours i was writting and missed

besides it was the minoans who went to egypt and build avaris

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avaris

i m not a genetist but a mt DNA could help us more,
if someone knows the origin and expansion of mtDNA in balkans, maybe can give more light

iapetoc
According Cruciani et al, 2007 a possible time of arrival E carriers to the Balkans is between 4000 and 4700 year ago. It is 2000 to 2700 years BC.

Peloponnese is possible territory where they settled.

But, if they came by land then it is difficult to have first settled in the Peloponnese, then the version with the sea routes makes sense.

E holders as stated in the literature and sites likely to come from Upper Egypt.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Ancient_Egypt_map-en.svg/293px-Ancient_Egypt_map-en.svg.png

1) E carriers in the Balkans maybe have Chushitic roots.

We see the Kush in the map.

The Albanian word Kush is Who.

And for example, Ila is Chushitic word that means eye. Are the words Ila and Ilir, Illyrian can be linked, it is not known.


2) We can certainly try to link the Balkan E carriers with ancestors Copts but this may be the good but may be the wrong track.

It would be interesting to us what Dian can says for the Italian Arbresh, what he investigated about the connection between Coptic and Albanian.

We don't know whether we can say that the Copts in general are E carriers. So far as can be found in the literature are low percentages of E haplogroup among the Copts. Also, they do not speak the Coptic language today, Arabic only.


3) The similarity of the Albanian words with Berber can point to the third link beside Cushitic and Coptic.

Berber languages are very dynamic and they changed so at the main Afroasian roots were influences from other group of languages, in good part from Nilo-Saharan.

If you look at the Upper Egypt and North Sudan has more Nilo-Saharan languages that would be interesting to study in comparison with the Albanian.

It is believed that the Nilo-Saharan languages originated in the region of the Sahara, you can look spreading the Berber Tamashek languages (Tuareg Berbers), where I gave examples of comparing words of one of the branch, called Tamasheq, with Albanian.

Researchings haplogroups in Sudan confirmed that among the speakers of Nilo Saharan languages are high percentages of haplogroup E-M78, which one of subclade is E-V13.

In this sense, it would probably be gone from the researching of similarity the Albanian with Nubian languages.

iapetoc
Perhaps Mes that you are referring comes from Maahes?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maahes

If so then it would be possible that the original Albanian comes from the Nilo Saharan languages and not Afroasian but of course needs a lot of research, that would enable to prove or disprove the assumptions.

My opinion is that roots of Albanian are rather Afroasian than Nilo Saharan, but in Upper Egypt there are also Nilo Saharan languages so that it is the valuable research and comparisons.


Coptic language has almost disappeared, in the Egypt can no longer speak, and personally I think that Albanians are not descendants of Copts, we see that in Egypt live many people, and what was the situation at the time when E carriers migrate from Africa to Europe can just imagine.

Another major problem is the northern Cushitic languages and Nilo Saharan still are not standardized, which are mostly spoken, and are not in schools.

On the Internet, and literature, we can hardly find anything about languages that we are most interested.

Therefore, Berber languages is the most affordable and most accessible for research because Berbers have successed to maintain their languages despite all the influences that have received.

Garrick
19-01-11, 21:57
right...whole world is invented ...

How yes no,
Please, do not get me wrong, but this topic is very complex and requires much researchs and reading, so that any diversion from it loses focus, I can only ask you to stick to theme, and since you are very analytical and very well versed, you can give this issue full contribution.

Elias2
19-01-11, 22:04
Macedonians have that name for several centuries at least, and probably much more than you can stand it...


Proof? because I can prove that they were bulgarians before WW2. There were macedonian dynasties during the eastern roman empire (Byzantine), like Basil the second, which fought and won against who they call their ansestors, czar samuel ect.

In all reality, this dispute isn't about what they call themselves, it's the territorial claims they make based on their imagined community. This is why Greece doesn't mind they use the term 'macedonia', as long as the is a prefix, like northern, Upper, New Macedonia ect, which distinuishes itself from the greek Macedonia. Bulgaria feels the same way and back greece on this.

iapetoc
20-01-11, 01:05
According Cruciani et al, 2007 a possible time of arrival E carriers to the Balkans is between 4000 and 4700 year ago. It is 2000 to 2700 years BC.

the connection with libya is also an inderesting approach,
but was done by cretan archologists in 1970 and fall cause minoan seems to invade libya before phoenician, the similarity of cities and buildings, is more between lebanon crete and upper egypt,
now about the approach of cruciani et al maybe i m wrong or maybe they but we have almost near 3000,
that connects with different architecture on megalithic, and the age of megalithic structures,
now the connection with the lions worshipers is probably theory cause lions were greeks cities wηere even mycaene

the photo is big so open it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae

but i dont know the time the corrent,
Nubia was known as Kush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kush), or, in Classical Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Greece) usage, included under the name Ethiopia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Ethiopia).




hmmm its a good idea
also that goddes bastia is similar to Greek goddes Estia for me lady of fire
but to artemis according herodotus,
although i dont find big similarity to artemis, only in people myths and bad signs
and both virgins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast_%28goddess%29

about that garick
My opinion is that roots of Albanian are rather Afroasian than Nilo Saharan, but in Upper Egypt there are also Nilo Saharan languages so that it is the valuable research and comparisons.

i belive that if Dian finds the book he says

Giuseppe Catapano, "Thot Parlava Albanese" Bardi Editore, Roma 1984!

then we have enough and we can find similarities with Greek wich also has Big E-V13

about the approach by sea or by land i find it little difficult by land and not leave small traces of E-V13
exept in case that they were a few at that time and fast move, they should have left a tribe with 25% E-V13 in the road,
That is why i believe that E came by sea,
either from cyprus to Aegean sea, east or west coach,
or from north africa to sicily to aimos peninsula,
or straght to peloponese
besides the first approach in cyclades civilization leads us to admit that sailing was founded before 4000 BC

about that garrick

And for example, Ila is Chushitic word that means eye. Are the words Ila and Ilir, Illyrian can be linked, it is not known.

hmmmm

according epidamnians
with illyrus was a son of cyclopes, cycllopes have 1 eye, probably the 1 eye of ra
above head
or the eye of Horus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye_of_Horus.svg

to some scientists the megalithic structures are name cyclopeians, cyclops made them,
to hommer cyclops lived in sicily,
according to them cyclopes invade and stayed in illyria,

But i m missing the eye symbol, have you ever seen an eye symbol in balkans?

sometimes i really wonder why Alexander went to oasis of siwa

how yes no 2
20-01-11, 01:27
How yes no,
Please, do not get me wrong, but this topic is very complex and requires much researchs and reading, so that any diversion from it loses focus, I can only ask you to stick to theme, and since you are very analytical and very well versed, you can give this issue full contribution.

ok, regarding the theme, I think you are somewhat on wrong clue....
Albanians are cluster with Serb/Croats/central Ukraine Romania/east and west Hungary (thus Hungary before Magyars arrived), and only together they cluster with Berbers... this indicates that not only Albanians but Serbs as well are related to Berbers

language of Berbers might have been heavily influenced by I2a1 that might have been same ancient old proto-Serb related tribes who settled Sardinia.. so, you would do better if you focus on words shared between Serbian and Berber language...though once you find them you will not be sure whether they are due to I2a1 or due to haplogroup E (as this one is in Serbs up to 20%)

look at Berber people in northwest Africa

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/90/Berber-map-2e.png

and compare to this map of I2a (area in north Africa is I2a1)

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

I2a1 does correlate with Berbers fairly well.... note that map might be somewhat ad-hoc regarding north Africa as there is probably no precise data for vast areas...


as for Lybia, if it is related to Lydia, this is again potential issue with I2a as Lydia was largely matching I2a spread.... I am not sure but I think split between I2a1 and I2a2 is closer in time than E-V13 i E haplogroups of northwest Africa...I do wonder about genetics of Berber speaking Siwi people (see map above)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Map_of_Lydia_ancient_times.jpg

iapetoc
20-01-11, 03:18
how yes no
that I2 probably has to do went vandals invade tynisia, the sarasenes etc

Garrick
20-01-11, 03:31
ok, regarding the theme, I think you are somewhat on wrong clue....
Albanians are cluster with Serb/Croats/central Ukraine Romania/east and west Hungary (thus Hungary before Magyars arrived), and only together they cluster with Berbers... this indicates that not only Albanians but Serbs as well are related to Berbers

language of Berbers might have been heavily influenced by I2a1 that might have been same ancient old proto-Serb related tribes who settled Sardinia.. so, you would do better if you focus on words shared between Serbian and Berber language...though once you find them you will not be sure whether they are due to I2a1 or due to haplogroup E (as this one is in Serbs up to 20%)

look at Berber people in northwest Africa



and compare to this map of I2a (area in north Africa is I2a1)



I2a1 does correlate with Berbers fairly well.... note that map might be somewhat ad-hoc regarding north Africa as there is probably no precise data for vast areas...


as for Lybia, if it is related to Lydia, this is again potential issue with I2a as Lydia was largely matching I2a spread.... I am not sure but I think split between I2a1 and I2a2 is closer in time than E-V13 i E haplogroups of northwest Africa...I do wonder about genetics of Berber speaking Siwi people (see map above)



How yes no
Interesting observation, and there can be many attempts to point to a connection.

However, in Africa, Slavic languages, including Serbian, are totally foreign, it means no indications of anything in the African languages have found which would have some connection with the Slavic. Simply the connection African languages with Slavic does not exist.

Of course the other thing is the question the theory that there was once I language, which is logical because I was one clan. But as the Serbs used to speak some of today's Slavic languages the old I language spoken by Serbs was replaced.

I have reviewed dozens of Afrasian languages, mostly Berbers and Cushitic languages and also watched some Nilo Saharan languages, and the words similar (or same) as Albanian found everywhere, in everyone of them, and in Nubian (Nilo Saharan), but with current knowledge, I might have the most researched Cushitic languages, but researchers should explore other languages to reach the right conclusions

What is the problem? These northern Cushitic languages are generally not maintained, if they existed. There are northern Cushitic languages in Egypt but they are not standardized and I can not find a valid sources. One interesting language, Blin people in Eritrea (Cushitic but no Nothern Cushitic), has for example, on a small sample that I saw words similar with the Albanian. But still I would like to see some north Cushitic languages, so that I could draw some firmer conclusions. Otherwise so far I could put hundreds of words from Afrasian and NiloSaharan language similar Albanian.

What is interesting. Many Afrasian languages, no matter how are far, have the words that are similar, and these words are also similar with the appropriate Albanian words, and it is unlikely that the roots of words as long survive despite all the changes, distance, other cultures have since received and so on. Africa is a miracle. Lots of interesting. It is a completely different world and way of thinking in relation to Europe. I was never in Africa and here now I got the desire to sometimes go.

Iapetoc clarified and addressed a lot of issues. Just amazing when he discovered that the root meaning of Shqiptar can be the Egyptian, congratulations on analytics. Albanians are the most likely roots in Upper Egypt, and it is iteresting for them to go there to see what cultures were once from which they originated. In more Cushitic language word or Il, Ili or similar means eye. It is very possible that Illyrian comes from the Cushitic word that would be a strong argument about possible connection between Albanians and Kushites.

So I can say reviewing dozens of African languages, and some Afrasian Nilo-Saharan that Albanian has similar or the same words from those languages. Slavic languages have a totally different way of thinking and logic and words from a root word compared to African languages. Thus there is no connection between Berbers and Slavic languages, including Serbian.

iapetoc
20-01-11, 05:15
Garrick

i said i don't see the eye,

propably illy has to do with the greek Ell -Ill

El-las means the stones of Ell
Ill-yri I dont know,
but i believe that Ell and Ill means the same,

that is why i believe that E came at 3500 BC or you sugeest 2700 BC
Ell and Ill has to do with middle east i quess
the Ell is something even today searchers try to find what means,
and the only explanation comes from syria, EL means the high, the top of the mountain, and the jews, El Santai powerfull god
El Ellion the high god, the top god
El-las means the gods of the stones (or the stones of the gods) or the people who live on the top of the rocks
I believe Ill means the same

how yes no 2
20-01-11, 22:13
how yes no
that I2 probably has to do went vandals invade tynisia, the sarasenes etc

that is what I used to think as well
(http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=361305#post361305)
but than I heard some arguments that it is much earlier spread...issue that I2a1 it is not found at all in areas of east Germany and Poland (where Vandals approximately lived) makes origin of Vandals very questionable....
another argument that got me was that I couldnot see correlation between spread of Vandals and map showing I2a (which is I2a1 in Iberia) hotspots in Iberia
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25689
third argument that convinced me was that name of Sardinia fits very well in what I see as haplogroup I tribal name pattern (Swedes, Suebi, Serbs, Sarbans (Pashtun people with haplogroup I), Sardinians...)

Garrick
21-01-11, 01:25
Garrick

i said i don't see the eye,

propably illy has to do with the greek Ell -Ill

El-las means the stones of Ell
Ill-yri I dont know,
but i believe that Ell and Ill means the same,

that is why i believe that E came at 3500 BC or you sugeest 2700 BC
Ell and Ill has to do with middle east i quess
the Ell is something even today searchers try to find what means,
and the only explanation comes from syria, EL means the high, the top of the mountain, and the jews, El Santai powerfull god
El Ellion the high god, the top god
El-las means the gods of the stones (or the stones of the gods) or the people who live on the top of the rocks
I believe Ill means the same

iapetoc
There are plenty of things that link.The eye and Horus are linked and this is something that is useful to know.

We can read:

www.buzzle.com/articles/egyptian-eye-of-horus-meaning.html (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/egyptian-eye-of-horus-meaning.html)
http://www.buzzle.com/articles/egyptian-god-horus.html (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/egyptian-god-horus.html)

http://www.buzzle.com/img/articleImages/269457-51015-55med.jpg



Wedjat or the 'eye of Horus' is an Egyptian symbol (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/ancient-egyptian-symbols.html) associated with the age-old battle between Set and Horus. According to mythology, they refused to relent and every move made by either one culminated in a new set of challenges. It was believed that Horus and Set finally challenged one another to a stone-boat race. However, in this particular race, Horus had an edge, since his boat was actually made of wood, but disguised to resemble stone. Set's boat sank and Horus won the race. Legend has it that Set officially handed over the throne of Egypt to the victor. This myth culminates in the unification of upper and lower Egypt.

We can see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus)

The eye is personified in the goddess Wadjet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wadjet) (also written as Wedjat,[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus#cite_note-2)Uadjet, Wedjoyet, Edjo or Uto[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus#cite_note-Henadology-3) and as The Eye of Ra[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus#cite_note-4) or "Udjat"[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus#cite_note-5)).

...

“There are seven different hieroglyphs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs) used to represent the eye, most commonly 'ir.t' in Egyptian, which also has the meaning 'to make or do' or 'one who does.'[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eye_of_Horus#cite_note-Henadology-3) In Egyptian myth the eye was not the passive organ of sight but more an agent of action, protection or wrath.”

So it's not just some eye but all of these meanings, however, and Horus who is important.

Horus is very old myth.

http://www.buzzle.com/articles/egyptian-god-horus.html (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/egyptian-god-horus.html)

Ancient Egyptian myths (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/ancient-egyptian-myths.html) and religion centered around a pantheon of gods and goddesses (http://www.buzzle.com/articles/ancient-egyptian-gods-and-goddesses.html). Horus is not only one of the oldest gods in the Egyptian pantheon, but also one of the most significant deities. The religion has its roots in the Predynastic period and dates back to the Greco-Roman era.

This is very important to know that the roots of Horus are in the Predynastic period, and if we accept arriving E carriers in Europe, as advocated Cruciani et al, 2007 and this is 2000 to 2700 years BC, this means that the ancestors of Albanians knew very well for Horus.

Now we will see something else:

http://egypttourinfo.com/ancient-egypt-blog_files/ancient_egyptian_god_horus.html (http://egypttourinfo.com/ancient-egypt-blog_files/ancient_egyptian_god_horus.html)


Horus is a God of Ancient Egypt (http://www.egypttourinfo.com/ancient-egypt.html), once known as Heru or Har, but later referred to by his popular Greek translation. Horus was a God of power, and the Eye of Horus came to symbolize that quality.

This is important for us to know that the Egyptians called him.
...

Because Horus was God of the sky, he had in subjection to him the sun and the moon. Thus it was believed that the sun was one of his eyes and the moon his other. The injury of Horus at the hands of Set explains why the moon is weaker than the sun in giving off light.

When Horus was victorious he became known as Harsiesis or Horus the Elder. Horus may have lost his eye, but Set got the far worse end of the deal, himself losing a testicle. This explains why the desert (which Set represented along with storms and chaos) became infertile.



This is useful to determine:

www.sangraal.com/library/eyesofhorus.htm (http://www.sangraal.com/library/eyesofhorus.htm)

Horus as now conceived is a mixture of the original deities known as "Horus the Child" and "Horus the Elder". As the Child, Horus is the son of Osiris and Isis, who, upon reaching adulthood, becomes known as Her-nedj-tef-ef ("Horus, Avenger of His Father") by avenging his father's death, by defeating and casting out his evil Set. As Horus the Elder, he was also the patron deity of Upper Egypt from the earliest times; initially, viewed as the twin brother of Set , the patron of Lower Egypt, but he became the conqueror of Set.

Here we can see that Horus was the patron deity of Upper Egypt, and it is teritory where they come from E carriers in the Balkans.

It is interesting that Albanian has words probably derived from ancient Egyptian:

times (eng.), herë (alb.), Heru or Har (anc. eg.)


loom (eng.), vegjë (alb.) Wadjet, Wedjat (and similar) (anc. eg.)gj (alb.) = dj

This Arbresh knew why he compared the Egyptian (Coptic today is derived from ancient Egyptian) words with Albanian, the country of origin is Egypt, and it is possible that:


1) we can rely on the assessment Cruciani et al on getting E carriers to the Balkans, about 2000 to 2700 years BC

2) Trombetta et al after rigorous scientific testing brought up a theory that E carriers in the Balkans arrived by sea

3) In Cushitic languages Il, Ila or Ili, that means the eye, is associated with old Deity Horus in Upper Egypt as well as meaning “to make” or “to do”. Maybe E carriers when they came to the Balkans are still cultivated the cult of Horus and may still used the word Ili or similar for the eye and therefore are called humans of eye (cult), ie. Iliryans, or a reason is connected with it, but if you find in Greek texts something about Cyclops might be and this could explain, since Cyclops has one eye, or may be something more for link.

I would not easily let go of connection with today's Cushitic word, and symbols of the eye, Horus of Egypt, the word Iliryan and meaning of “to make” but if you do not find the connection this will be treated as a hypothesis that we failed to prove, still it does not mean that hypotesis is not correct.

OK, may be you're right that connection with eye don't exist, we continue with the new discoveries going deeper into Africa, Egypt, Balkan, in the past and present.

how yes no 2
21-01-11, 01:49
How yes no
Interesting observation, and there can be many attempts to point to a connection.

However, in Africa, Slavic languages, including Serbian, are totally foreign, it means no indications of anything in the African languages have found which would have some connection with the Slavic. Simply the connection African languages with Slavic does not exist.
are you sure?
if I look at list of 7 common Afro-Asiatic cognates given on wikipedia I can imediatelly recognize 3 of them in Serbian

Some Afroasiatic cognates are:

*b-n- 'build' (Ehret: *bĭn), attested in Chadic, Semitic (*bny), Cushitic (*mĭn/*măn 'house'), Berber (*bn) and Omotic (Dime bin- 'build, create').
*m-t 'die' (Ehret: *maaw), attested in Chadic (for example, Hausa mutu), Egyptian (mwt *muwt, mt, Coptic mu), Berber (mmet, pr. immut), Semitic (*mwt), and Cushitic (Proto-Somali *umaaw/*-am-w(t)- 'die'). Also Mot, Canaanite god of death.
*s-n 'know', attested in Chadic (for example, Hausa san), Berber, Egyptian and Semitic (Hebrew š-n-n 'learn, study').
*l-s 'tongue' (Ehret: *lis' 'to lick'), attested in Semitic (*lasaan/lisaan 'tongue'), Egyptian (ns *ls, Coptic las), Berber (ils), Chadic (for example, Hausa harshe), and possibly Omotic (Dime lits'- 'lick').
*s-m 'name' (Ehret: *sŭm / *sĭm), attested in Semitic (*sm), Berber (ism), Chadic (for example, Hausa suna), Cushitic, and Omotic (though some see the Berber form, ism, and the Omotic form, sunts, as Semitic loanwords.) The Egyptian smi 'report, announce' offers another possible cognate.
*d-m 'blood' (Ehret: *dîm / *dâm), attested in Berber (idammen), Semitic (*dam), and Chadic. Compare Cushitic *dîm/*dâm, 'red'.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages

afroasiatic m-t (english die)
serbian (u)mreti (die) mrtav (dead)

afroasiatic s-n (know)
serbian znati

afroasiatic l-s (tongue)
serbian lizati (to lick)

3 of 7 are pretty good match

speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you :)


Given the diversity that exists within the Afro-Asiatic group, and the lack of common vocabulary for agricultural items, it is suggested that the languages dispersed before the commencement of the Neolithic. The finding of a common vocabulary for pottery containers, however, suggests that this technology was known.

For example Proto-Semitic *k'ad-ah- "vessel", found in Arabic kadah "drinking bowl, cup, goblet, glass, tumbler"; Sabaean m-kdh(m,n) "cup; Ethiopic / Geez kadho "vessel, gourd", ma-kdeht "jar, jug, bucket"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'adad- "vessel, gourd; Oromo k'odaa "vessel, gourd; Egyptian qd "pot"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'od- "receptical"; Oromo k'odaa "receptacle"; West Chadic *k'wad- "calabash"; Dangla koda "pot" gives Proto-Afro-Asiatic *k'ud-/*k'od- "Vessel, pot"[8].

Ehret [9] suggests that early Afro-Asiatic languages were involved in the domestication of Ethiopian food crops, but this is disputed by others who suggest these words were found only in the Cushitic and possibly Omotic families, and common cognates for agriculture are not present. Given that wavy line pottery is found widely in the Sahara from 8,000 BCE[10], and that the neolithic agriculture technologies arrived 5000 BCE[11], this sets a possible context for Proto-Afro-Asiatic dispersal. As it is known that the Ethiopian farmers moved into the highlands from the direction of Nubian Sudan, and attempts to translate the Meroitic script found in this area show significant Afro-Asiatic characteristics, linguist Lionel Bender suggests that this area of the Southern Nile was the centre from which the Afro-Asiatic languages dispersed[12]. The dates of pottery and agriculture set approximate early and late dates for this linguistic dispersal. Climatically this was the time of a "wet Sahara" phase with large rivers and lakes. The dispersal of Afro-Asiatic may thus have been a response to the recent operation of the "Sahara pump"[13][14].
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Afro-Asiatic_languages

btw. Proto-Semitic *k'ad-ah- "vessel", found in Arabic kadah "drinking bowl, cup, goblet, glass, tumbler"; Sabaean m-kdh(m,n) "cup; Ethiopic / Geez kadho "vessel, gourd", ma-kdeht "jar, jug, bucket"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'adad- "vessel, gourd; Oromo k'odaa "vessel, gourd; Egyptian qd "pot"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'od- "receptical"; Oromo k'odaa "receptacle"; West Chadic *k'wad- "calabash"; Dangla koda "pot" gives Proto-Afro-Asiatic *k'ud-/*k'od- "Vessel, pot"[8].

Serbian kada = (bathing) tub

by checking russian online dictionary, of those 4 cognates (out of 8 Afro-asiatic words I found) 3 are all Slavic words (not just Serbian)...

Serbian znati (to know) Russian znati (знать)
Serbian lizati (to lick) russian lizati (лизать)
Serbian umreti/mrtav (to die/dead) russian umereti/mertvi (умереть/мертвый)

however,
Serbian kada (tub) Russian vana ( ванна)

Garrick
21-01-11, 02:54
are you sure?
if I look at list of 7 common Afro-Asiatic cognates given on wikipedia I can imediatelly recognize 3 of them in Serbian

Some Afroasiatic cognates are:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afroasiatic_languages

afroasiatic m-t (english die)
serbian (u)mreti (die) mrtav (dead)

afroasiatic s-n (know)
serbian znati

afroasiatic l-s (tongue)
serbian lizati (to lick)

3 of 7 are pretty good match

speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you :)

Serbian is Slavic language and what you write applies to all Slavic languages.

For example:

to know

Serbian: znati
Croatian: znati
Russian: знать (lat. znatь)
Ukrainen: знати (lat. znati)
Bulgarian: знам (lat. znam)

to lick

Serbian: lizati
Croatian: lizati
Russian: лизать (lat. lizatь)
Ukrainen: лизати (lat. lizati)
Bulgarian: лижа (lat. lizha)

Etc.

Slavic languages belong to one language group. Thus, the Serbian language should not be viewed in isolation, for then might turn out to all Slavic languages originate from Serbian as the least pretentious.

If you noticed in the text of Wikipedia under the Cognates, when compared Afro-Asiatic languages each other, compare the branch of languages, rather than every individual language.

So when it says Berber languages it is a branch within the Afro-Asiatic family such as the Slavic languages in one branch of the Indo-European family.

You can see that linguists tried to make connections between Indo-European and Semitic languages and see the result is simply no results.

"Hermann Möller (1906) argued for a relation between the Semitic and Indo-European languages. This proposal was accepted by some linguists (eg Holger Pedersen and Louis Hjelmslev) but has little currency today."

Can you imagine what would be the result of comparing Slavic languages with languages which further than Semitic?


Mean, the Albanian language is an exception because it is not classified into any group of languages, it is unique in Europe as well as Indo-European.

Even the Albanians have investigated the connection with other, non Indo-European languages, among Albanians there are alternative theories that originate from Egypt, you have here on the subject of a book published by one Arbresh from Italy.

And I personally knew the Albanians who claimed that the Egyptians originated.

And Albanians themselves write about it on Albanian forums.

And you can see that the haplogroups indicate that the most likely country of origin is the Upper Egypt.

Because there are many paths that indicate the relationship of Albanians and Africa (ie Egypt), among them the language also, it is worth exploring.


To someone trying to investigate that Slavic languages have roots with the Afro-Asian may be an attempt, as it does many other things may try, but objectively what he or she can expect to be achieved in that attempt?

Dian
21-01-11, 04:03
with other[/B]
And I personally knew the Albanians who claimed that the Egyptians originated.

I undestood very well your intention to write about the albanians.
The albanians who claim to originate from Egypt are a minority of Roms.

Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20238122

It's a little strange you find relation for the albanians with every afrikan people when you find a similar word.
Have you ever heard about Muhammad Ali of Egypt and his albanian soldiers?!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt


the only language he knew fluently was Albanian
How can you be sure the words were not brought to that people from his dynasty?

Dian
21-01-11, 04:08
Mean, the Albanian language is an exception because it is not classified into any group of languages, it is unique in Europe as well as Indo-European.


The Albanian language is a distinct Indo-European language that does not belong to any other existing branch.
I think this is the right definition.

Dian
21-01-11, 04:10
.
Here the first example:
Ik (albanian )
行く[iku] (japanese)
wiki (hawainian)
quick (english)
Can anyone tell me, how these words are related?

Nobody gave me an explanation about this!:thinking:

LeBrok
21-01-11, 04:54
In all reality, this dispute isn't about what they call themselves, it's the territorial claims they make based on their imagined community. This is why Greece doesn't mind they use the term 'macedonia', as long as the is a prefix, like northern, Upper, New Macedonia ect, which distinuishes itself from the greek Macedonia. Bulgaria feels the same way and back greece on this.

For same logic Greece should be called New Greece, to make it distinct from ancient Greece with it's Hellenic religion, customs, warrior culture, etc. Today's Greece is in many ways a lot different than ancient one.

Dian
21-01-11, 04:55
Please tell me, who is John Amos Comenius?

John Amos Comenius (Czech: Jan Amos Komenský; Slovak: Ján Amos Komenský; German: Johann Amos Comenius; Polish: Jan Amos Komeński; Hungarian: Comenius Ámos János; Latinized: Iohannes Amos Comenius) (28 March 1592 – 4 November 1670) was a Czech teacher, educator, and writer. He was the last bishop of Unity of the Brethren, a religious refugee, and one of the earliest champions of universal education, a concept eventually set forth in his book Didactica Magna. He is often considered the father of modern education.

http://i44.tinypic.com/okwlcz.png


We must have some distortions fitting the languages and the haplogroups with the today national identities for some populations.
Let remember the example of hungarians ( magyar). Today they speak an uralic language, but the genetic heritage from the magyar is nearly to 10%. So they imposed their language to the local population, because they have the politic power.
Remember, it needs only 80 years to change the language of a population!


http://img693.imageshack.us/img693/9687/ungeresi1.png
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7601/ungheresi2.png

Dian
21-01-11, 05:09
Now let me share with you a short guide about the albanian language!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrf6ifyncu8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8JXJADIeNU


Differentiation of 63 IE languages rappresented in a tree of greitlinguistic group based on the analysis of the root of 200 lexical signifiers, which are supposed to be the most preserved in all the languages examined. The numbers next to branches indicate % reliability of the construction of that particular branch. The scale located below the figure indicates the years before the present. Some languages are included 2 or 3 times, because it pertains to different dialectal variants or socio-linguistics. Eg, if I is the Gheg Albanian, Albanian II is the Toski, Albanian III is the national literary language. See Dyen, Kruskal and Black (1992), Piazza et al. Taken from the book:» Le radici prime dell'Europa: gli intrecci genetici, linguistici, storici» Di Luigi Cavalli-Sforza, Gianlucca Bocchi. Mondadori Editori, 2001.
http://books.google.it/books?id=AVXquAab7DcC&lpg=PA81&ots=4NsjjkXbKr&dq=ungheresi%20genetica%20sforza&pg=PA78#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5161/cavallisforza.jpg

Dian
21-01-11, 06:36
[QUOTE]
My dear!
Have you ever seen any paint from Paul Jovanovich ?
I really doubt, because you would know very well the albanian national dress!! :smile:
Some examples:

Paul Jovanovic, "The music lesson" 1890
http://i51.tinypic.com/534vvl.jpg

Peja Jovanovic - Izdajica
http://oi54.tinypic.com/2h6g0u8.jpg

Jovanovic - Albanian Sentinel Resting
http://i25.tinypic.com/n88c3.jpg
and other from albanians serving in Egypt:

Arnaut officers & Egyptian recruits crossing the desert
http://i42.tinypic.com/2ywdenk.jpg



http://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs218.snc1/8524_131444518349_678598349_2388165_1517952_n.jpgh ttp://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs218.snc1/8524_131444523349_678598349_2388166_6696699_n.jpgh ttp://hphotos-snc1.fbcdn.net/hs218.snc1/8524_131444528349_678598349_2388167_7291216_n.jpg
And, a collection of albanian national dress in one video!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hgL65RaihcA
I think now nobody will do the mistake to compare albanian dress with its of the berbers!:rolleyes2:
And, If someone thinks that fustanella in all these pictures is not albanian, let see this book:

Handbook for travellers in Greece: including the Ionian Islands. Volume 1 By John Murray
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy165/mushka_bucket/handbookfortrav06firgoog_0013-1.jpg

Dian
21-01-11, 07:13
SHQIPTAR = ISH + GIPT + AR means I AM EGYPTIAN g as wh in what if g as k the coptic
cause in byzantine egyptians even today they are called GYPT-IAN and the COPTIC KOPT-ES = COPT-ES
then THAT APPROACH FITS TO YOU,
MEANING THAT SHQIPTAR MEANS EGYPTIAN.
OR ESH + GIPT + AR = FROM EGYPT ???????
also Ash means from but only in east ionic
because Skiptos means bowed but sgiptos means egyptian
k as gr κ
g as γ -wh- in what 'swhiptos'
or the very ancient before 700 BC skif-os or skiphos wich in aeolian druopean (thessaly) means ksifos early kind of spear, the metallic nose-edge of the spear,
cause in case that shqiptar means form egypt then we have a small lingua conection with egypt,
but in case of shqiptar means something like the sword, then the similarity with proto-greeks is obvious
This is one explanation!

In our mistreated history, extirpated and transformed, we have to save that which is more valuable: Our Language.
From her we get information from where we come, why we are called such, and which are our symbols. Thus we know well that our symbols are very ancient, they are connected with a ancient believe, with our ancient Deity(Hyjnine) Zeus. On the helmet of our Albanian leader Scanderbeg of 15 century is founded exactly the symbols of this Deity(Hyu): horns of the goat of Amaltia who fed Zeus.
http://i37.tinypic.com/rvc3f7.jpg

This Deity(Hy) was called: That who sends thunders from above, He from where the thunders fall.
Thunder itself was his symbol and it was called κεραυνός which is pronounced që-raun-os.

http://i34.tinypic.com/1z525c2.jpg

This is an albanian expression and in linguistics is called a subjoined word. Of course there is no need for a translation but is read: që ranë. The root of the word is ra, which in today albanian is the past of the verb fall(strike, hit) or alb bie(qelloj, godas).
So that is the verb:when it strikes (me i ra), which gets used when
1. Lightning Strikes(Godet(rrufeja)
2. Lightning falls(Bie(rrufeja)
However that is used in ''"greek"" even to describe the horn eg:
it strikes with horns(i ra me brire)=horns are those that are used to strike and hit.
http://i38.tinypic.com/2s1urd2.jpg

beside qëraunos we find another word for thunder:
http://i34.tinypic.com/9asniw.jpg
http://i33.tinypic.com/34tcz1d.png

this is the name of the eagle(shqipes) that sends thunder:
http://i37.tinypic.com/29nuype.gif

iapetoc
21-01-11, 16:09
well you just show me the σκηπτ-ος, but with wrong approach
cause hommer names skiphei and ksifei,

σκιφος = Aeolian sword (the top metallic nose of spear)
Ξιφος = (κσιφος) = sword to south greeks (dorian-achaic-ionian) (the top metallic nose of spear)

as you see the skiphos and ksiphos also both named in hommer

now σκηπτος is almost corect cause you also find it in crete ksipharia of uranus
and ksipharia means the lighting the light that metal does when crushed, like 2 swords,
ks and sk is due to dialect
example athenean fagame (eat)
makedonian Vagame(eat)
proto greek vrosame,
the exact meaning in σκηπτος is light, in greek strapt
α-στραπ-η noun a-strap-e (i) lighting
ε-στραπτ-ε virb 3 person past e-strapt-e
thunder in Greeks is the phainomenon of 2 smaller phainomena
1 the lightning the a-strap-i (the spark light of of skifei or ksifei)
2 the sound the Vront-i (vront-os bront-os) the vrrr sound
keras is the horn but also the knife and also the potery and keramos (tile)
keraynos -keravnos is the sound of falling tiles also
or an expression we use (bull in a glass store)
but keravno-bol-o (κεραυνο-βολ-ω βολω=βαλω is shoot(vallistic)) means throw a tile, or a horn, hmm i guess knives??

but the approach can be bigger if we reach the Danaus legend
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaus

meaning that the first E-V13 inhabited Argos peloponese, etc
besides there are many Greek Gods and words in GreeK that comes from Africa

now about fustanella is the Greek of Pus (πους = foot) which in aeolic is fus
πους
ποδος τ,δ,θ -> ποδα

λυ-ω set free
past λελληκα lellika watch double ll
simple past ελυα -> elia -elja -ella

fus=fotos +elja -> fostanella-> fustanella
lefts feet free ->free feets
podea = a quilt that bounds or protect feet
also today as fodea or fodra
that protects feet
what is this???
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3b/Alexander_and_Aristotle.jpg

Alexander wears Fustanella????

OH MY GOD????
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bc/Greek_Hoplites%2C_Xanthos%2C_Nereid_Monument%2C_Fr ieze_II%2C_Block_879.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/49/Hoplite_grave_relief.jpg

The GREEK HOPLITE WEAR FUSTANELLA !!!!!

WOW, maybe greeks were albanians?????
or albanians are greeks?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/EVZONES_GROUP.JPG

is this the albanian national Guards???
or this??
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/el/6/68/ALLAGHFROURAS.jpg

hmmm mini Fustanella???
better to a battle

WHO ARE THEY?
BULGARIAN FUSTANELLA
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/61/Sarakatsai_Thrace_1938.jpg

The famous karakacan Greeks in bulgaria wearing Fustanella!!!!!!

oh gods roman wear Fustanella
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cb/Thessaloniki-Arch_of_Galerius_%28detail%29.jpg


what is this? the byzantine 'podea' fodra in Greeks of central minor asia? cappadokia
(means ti tight feets to bound not to loose)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HlABSNaIujI&feature=related


what is this? BULGARIAN FUSTANELLA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCn3O6c3tuA

besides there is another explanation-approach
the arab city fustat


they were also fustanella
AROMANI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BRpC6byO8hg

that is worthy,
Greeks from Pontus at the festival of momos (ancient god Comos - comedy) carnival
immitating alexanders soldiers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkX6tB0FFkI&feature=related

the name is not fustanella but posdani

Garrick
21-01-11, 18:08
And, If someone thinks that fustanella in all these pictures is not albanian, let see this book:

Dian
You gave a good example for the Egyptian roots, and the custom of wearing fustanella (kilt) can be explained as the kilt worn in Ancient Egypt thousands of years BC.

www.kingtutshop.com/freeinfo/Ancient-Egyptian-Clothes.htm (http://www.kingtutshop.com/freeinfo/Ancient-Egyptian-Clothes.htm)

“The ancient Egyptians made their own clothes from what their environment and nature gave them. Egypt has mostly a hot climate thus the use of clothes reflect material that is lightweight to suit this type of climate. The ancient Egyptians thus used clothes made of linen. The ancient Egyptians both men and women wore linen clothes all throughout the hot weather. The men wore short skirts around their waists called kilts, while the women wore straight fitting dresses with straps on their shoulders. The wealthy men wore pleated kilts, and the older men wore a longer kilt. When doing hard work, men wore a loin cloth, and women wore a short skirt. Children usually ran around nude during the summer months. Linen is a fabric made from plant fibers. The plant fiber comes from flax plants that grow abundantly along the banks of the Nile. “

Kilts were of various sizes and shapes depending on the position in society, era, etc..



http://www.reshafim.org.il/ad/egypt/timelines/topics/pics/male_clothing.jpg


Keep in mind that not all E carriers in the Balkans the Illyrians, but the Illyrians are E carriers, so that it is not surprising if some practices are unchanged, ie. that both Albanians and may be some Greeks have similar costume which pulling long origin of the land of ancestors.

Garrick
21-01-11, 19:09
I undestood very well your intention to write about the albanians.
The albanians who claim to originate from Egypt are a minority of Roms.

I am researcher, I have no front or rear intentions.

In my opinion, the Albanians are the descendants of the Illyrians and Illyrians are the bearers of haplogroup E, but not all E carriers in the Balkans are the Illyrians, part of Greeks also are the holders of the E haplogroup. And it was proved that haplogroup E-V78, the E-V13 is subclade, comes from Egypt.

It is good to get involved in the discussion because it will thus be better. You can see that for this whole group of languages from Somalia to Egypt and the Berbers, once used the name of the Hamitic languages. A Hamitic languages are consistent with the E haplogroup. For example in Russia, some authors call Illyrians Hamitic, but Russian sources I do not use because of the Russian has “jat”, it makes learning more difficult and I have no times to study.

There are Albanian sources and authors who link Albanians and Egypt, but they are not Roma.

If you are interested in the Internet there are the sources about of the Albanians, Egypt and Somalia as you like. For example you can see on Internet a lot people of Somalia and Egypt are excited to have relatives still in Europe. And some of these sources we can use, and detailed analysis on these sites and blogs that may be of interest. For analitic Iapetoc has more and more material.

And so on, on this issue we can discuss till tomorrow morning, because there are countless sources. But you will be able to see, with Iapetoc I will comment on the idea of an Albanian author who claims same as Iapetoc about Illyrians, El and Ill.

Cruciani et al 2007, based on rigorous scientific studies, found that E carriers in the Balkans appeared 2000 to 2700 BC. Assumptions that E carriers in the Balkans have come much earlier were previosly and they are dropped. Iapetoc thought it was a little earlier, ok, it can be discussed, whether and how much earlier or later, but 2000 to 2700 BC, and a little earlier or later period can be considered.

So, under such paragraph, the part of E holders have become Greeks, somewhat assimilated into other tribes and nations and the Illyrians were the ones who preserve their characteristics originating from the ancient land upper Egypt.

spongetaro
21-01-11, 19:09
language of Berbers might have been heavily influenced by I2a1 that might have been same ancient old proto-Serb related tribes who settled Sardinia..

I2a1 does correlate with Berbers fairly well....


Ancient old proto-Serb related tribes who settled Sardinia ???? WTF Are you saying that I M26 in western Europe (including the British island) is proto Serb ?


I2a1 does correlate with the Berbers ?? the Berbers of Sahara and atlas or the Coastal people of North Africa that suffered numerous invasion for centuries?

You clearly have an Haplogroup I2a obssession. Stop seeing haplogroup I and Serbian related tribes everywhere

Garrick
21-01-11, 19:21
I2a1 does correlate with the Berbers ?? the Berbers of Sahara and atlas or the Coastal people of North Africa that suffered numerous invasion for centuries?


spongatero
Thanks on this clarification. In general, Slavic languages are not connected with Berber. I think that how yes no had something else in mind but I could discuss about it with him on another subject, not here, because this topic is already quite complex and we must keep the focus.

how yes no 2
21-01-11, 20:17
Ancient old proto-Serb related tribes who settled Sardinia ???? WTF Are you saying that I M26 in western Europe (including the British island) is proto Serb ?
no, read what I said...
I didnot said proto-Serb tribes
but
proto-Serb related tribes...

let me draw it for you...

donkey is horse related species... they are not the same, but are much more related than donkey and lion, or donkey and aligator, or donkey and ant, or donkey and falcon...


I2a1 does correlate with the Berbers ?? the Berbers of Sahara and atlas or the Coastal people of North Africa that suffered numerous invasion for centuries?

oh. grow up and learn to read what is written and not what you think is written...

spread of I2a1 in north Africa correlates fairly well with Berbers...that is clear from spread of Berbers and spread of I2a1... but that doesnot mean that Berbers are I2a1...it means that they have admixture of I2a1 while other people of Africa so far do not show such correlation....


You clearly have an Haplogroup I2a obssession. Stop seeing haplogroup I and Serbian related tribes everywhere

Dear forum psychiatrist wannabe, I apologize for offending you with possibility that in ancient times ancestors of Sardinans were related to ancestors of Serbs, but fact is I2a1 haplogroup is related to I2a2 haplogroup...now if you can't live with that idea, perhaps you should do something about your problems...

regarding my clear obsession with haplogroup I2a, if I would want to be as rude as you, I would say you have obsession with G2a as you clearly see Sardinian related G2a as basis of Sherden, Aryans... I don't mind if you do "clearly see" G2a everywhere, but do not forbid me to see I2a where I think it is relevant...

Garrick
22-01-11, 00:50
This is an albanian expression and in linguistics is called a subjoined word. Of course there is no need for a translation but is read: që ranë. The root of the word is ra, which in today albanian is the past of the verb fall(strike, hit) or alb bie(qelloj, godas).
So that is the verb:when it strikes (me i ra), which gets used when
1. Lightning Strikes(Godet(rrufeja)
2. Lightning falls(Bie(rrufeja)

Dian

Thanks for this post.

We have now learned another word that the ancient Egyptian and Albanian.

Still in primary school the pupils taught in ancient Egyptian history about Ra (or Re).

Do not go with too much meanings, we move from basic:

www.crystalinks.com/hathor.html (http://www.crystalinks.com/hathor.html)

ra, re (anc. eg.), ray of light (eng.)

iapetoc
22-01-11, 04:01
Garrick
2 big Kings - fathers
Danaus from libya to Argos peloponese
Danaus brother of Egyptos

Illyros from middle east
Illyros brother of Phoenix,

E-V13 and J2
that is Greece,
from Greece to Illyria? or from sicily to Illyria
that is my problem now

ccause if you want words I will give you

egypt Horus Greek Haros -> death king,
The Boat of Horus
The boat of Ades

Garrick
22-01-11, 12:37
Garrick
2 big Kings - fathers
Danaus from libya to Argos peloponese
Danaus brother of Egyptos

Illyros from middle east
Illyros brother of Phoenix,

E-V13 and J2
that is Greece,
from Greece to Illyria? or from sicily to Illyria
that is my problem now

ccause if you want words I will give you

egypt Horus Greek Haros -> death king,
The Boat of Horus
The boat of Ades

iapetoc
People from Somalia to Egypt writes very interesting articles, also from the Middle East and some Albanians themselves, regardless of Dian said to be Roma, but they are not Roma, just the Albanians, and all that can be used,

of course, we will rely primarily on contemporary scientific sources and old texts, to get closer to the true state of things.

Trombetta et al in their recent work write, based on rigorous scientific testing, that the E carriers, came by sea to the Balkans.

The first question is:

1) Where was their homeland?

It is clear that this is Upper Egypt, but we want to locate closer and see that the tribes.

The second question is:

2) When they came to the Balkans?

On this question, if we follow Cruciani et al: 2000 to 2700 BC. But if you think that it was earlier the date we will use your assessment and note date of Cruciani et al.

A third issue is:

3) Where E-carriers first arrived?

I focused on the fact that they came from Egypt or Libya, the first and second:

3a) Egypt / LIBYA, Peloponnese or
3b) Egypt / Libya, Crete.

An alternative route is: 3c) Egypt / Libya, Sicily, Western Greece.

how yes no 2
23-01-11, 01:14
Garrick
2 big Kings - fathers
Danaus from libya to Argos peloponese
Danaus brother of Egyptos

Illyros from middle east
Illyros brother of Phoenix,

E-V13 and J2
that is Greece,
from Greece to Illyria? or from sicily to Illyria
that is my problem now

ccause if you want words I will give you

egypt Horus Greek Haros -> death king,
The Boat of Horus
The boat of Ades


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg/660px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg.png

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

could it be that:

Doric Greeks (Epir and Peloponnese) and Illyrians = J2b
ancient Macedonians = R1a, J2b (original Doric element) and G2a
Aeolic Greek, Dardanians, Paionians, Dacians and Thracians = E-V13+ R1b
Ionic Greek = E-V13 + J2b
Pannoni (settled most of province of Illyria when it was emptied by Dacians) and Veneti (including Antes, Vistula Veneti, Liburnians and Vindelici (and white Serbs of Bohemia among them)) = I2a2 + R1a
Scordisci = I1 + I2a2 + E-V13+ R1b
Getea - I2b1
Sarmatians - tribes of different origin G2a, I2a2 and R1a
Scythians - R1a
Goths - I1
Magyars - R1a

iapetoc
23-01-11, 01:53
How yes no
looks good but carefull about Makedonians,

we dont know if G2a is Greek or Turkish from 400 years occupation,
( i have G2a)

west Makedonia has quite big E-v13 and central 15-20 J2b,
melting pot, also R1b 10%
known thracians is from dardania to black sea, at black sea big J2, (really thracian? or ionian colonization?
west thracians have 20-30% E-V13 and east thracians have 30-40% j2
thracia starts from bosna dardania and ends at minor asia and in minor asia

good work,

so the south-Thrassian Tyrsshenian Troyan Minoan relative to Phoenician naval areas (Levant) must be J2B
and north-thrassian E-V13 (from assimilation - thracianization)
meaning that the E-V13 of dardania and peloponese either is 2 (from sicily to dardania) either is one that split to 2 after invasions and change language,

about slavian the I2a2 at dardania probably has to do with the serbia of Stephan Dussan (capital-Skopje).

how yes no 2
23-01-11, 02:29
How yes no
looks good but carefull about Makedonians,

we dont know if G2a is Greek or Turkish from 400 years occupation,
( i have G2a)


will be updated :


west Makedonia has quite big E-v13 and central 15-20 J2b,
melting pot, also R1b 10%
J2b is Doric component, there has to be reason Macedonians are mentioned as Dorians...and it is as you say centrally placed...
E-V13 may be later spread of neighbours as it is in west part
E-V13 and R1b might be assimilated previous people



known thracians is from dardania to black sea, at black sea big J2, (really thracian? or ionian colonization?
I think ionian colonization


west thracians have 20-30% E-V13 and east thracians have 30-40% j2
thracia starts from bosna dardania and ends at minor asia and in minor asia
thracians had some I2a2 too as there is I2a2 in Asia minor as well...


]about slavian the I2a2 at dardania probably has to do with the serbia of Stephan Dussan (capital-Skopje).
no, I2a2 is there also in south Albania and Lydia in asia minor...so part of it is pre-slavic and its spread from Asia minor was twofold: 1) via Thrace and Scordisci, 2) by movement of Veneti tribes (later Slavs) from Paphlagonia to Europe

btw. Scordisci - they were originally on south all the way to Sar mountain (it was Scordus in Greek) that is named after them
(areas of south Kosovo, east Macedonia, northeast Albania) and on north deep in Pannonia, and also in east Bosnia - matching very well spread of Serbs...
if Sclaveni = Slavs, than Scordisci = Sordisci which is same as Serdi who entered Thrace from area of Scordisci

area of influence of Scordisci is known to be all the way to Slovakia, thus all the way to white (or west) Serbs in Bohemia
they are Celtic in culture (language unknown), but so are Vindelici and Bohemia Serbs among them...

I think that Scordisci are likely proto-Serbs....
and that their spread may have started from town Sardis in Lydia and extended to Bohemia.. their core was moving to Dacia, Illyria, Pannonia.... but were always around Serbia

I2a2 along Adriatic coast of Italy says I2a2 was in Illyrians as well
high variance and low frequency of E-V13 in Dalmatia might be about pre-Illyrian E-V13 people...

updated:

Doric Greeks (Epir and Peloponnese) and Illyrians = J2b + I2a2
ancient Macedonians = R1a + J2b + I2a2, G2a (?)
Aeolic Greek, Paionians, Dacians and Thracians = E-V13+ R1b+ some Doric/Illyrian mix (I2a2 + J2b)
Dardanians = Ev13 + R1b
Ionic Greek = E-V13 + J2b + I2a2
Pannoni (settled most of province of Illyria when it was emptied by Dacians) and Veneti (including Antes, Vistula Veneti, Liburnians and Vindelici (and white Serbs of Bohemia among them)) = I2a2 + R1a
Scordisci = I2a2 + E-V13+ R1a+ I1 +R1b
Getea - I2b1
Sarmatians - tribes of different origin G2a, I2a2 and R1a
Scythians - R1a
Goths - I1
Magyars - R1a

iapetoc
23-01-11, 07:37
no idont believe ancient makedonians have I2a2,
as you see it seams like j2b was push from north, from the big concentration,

I still believe that, has to do with Dusan, but also Scordisci came after makedonian kingdom
i believe that I2a2 came in Greece via Dusan or simeon, and the peace times and at ottoman empire,
dont think that was in ancient makedonia,
maybe in thessaly a part from minor Asia the Druopes that went north,

i also believe that % bellow ten, except R1 must not be mentioned,
probably 1500 and 3000 years after a % of 10 is normal, especially at roman times via slavery or in ottoman times from small immigrations due to small wars,

but seems ok,

the other fact has to do with inside miggrations
so us to cut assimilated Y-DNA, as local that joins after invasions

but that is a long story

and the differences of Y-Dna,
for example the J2b in minor asia is from levant, or from crete, sub J2b etc
cause crete has an autochonus J2b,

Garrick
23-01-11, 09:33
Garrick

i said i don't see the eye,

propably illy has to do with the greek Ell -Ill

El-las means the stones of Ell
Ill-yri I dont know,
but i believe that Ell and Ill means the same,

that is why i believe that E came at 3500 BC or you sugeest 2700 BC
Ell and Ill has to do with middle east i quess
the Ell is something even today searchers try to find what means,
and the only explanation comes from syria, EL means the high, the top of the mountain, and the jews, El Santai powerfull god
El Ellion the high god, the top god
El-las means the gods of the stones (or the stones of the gods) or the people who live on the top of the rocks
I believe Ill means the same

Iapetoc

Andi Zeneli is an Albanian who speculated that the Albanians are the descendants of the Atlanteans.
He sees the influence of Albanians from Africa and Europe until Thailand, for example Thailand is named according him one of the oldest Illyrian tribes Taulant.

For our topic is interesting his seeing El, Yl, ie. Il (not "Ail").

Albeni writes:

"Zeus, an Illyrian god had an eagle as his guard. Very often Zeus was transformed into an eagle. In the bible the ark of Moses was surrounded by the flying creatures. Amphisbena the strange creature found in Bestiary THE SECOND FAMOUS BOOK AFTER THE BIBLE (Free Trial Amphi means double) was an eagle with the body of a snake and if we look carefully the Albanian eagle has the tongue of a snake and the old symbol had a very prolonged body). It was born In Helio-polis in Egypt where the sun god El or Yl in Illyrian was worshipped."

This of Zeus as an Illyrian god you will annotate more than that I try, but interesting is his claim that the Illyrians in Egypt celebrated the sun God, El or Yl.

Since you've had a similar idea now would be good if you can spread to clarify that everybody understands.

And we are fully explain the connection to the Cushitic word Il, Ila or Ili, depending on how pronounced the Kushite people, which means Eye.

www.spiritofra.com/Utchat.htm (http://www.spiritofra.com/Utchat.htm)

“The utchat represents the Egyptian sacred eye. The right eye, the Eye of Ra, the Sun symbolizes. The left eye, the Eye of Thoth, symbolizes the Moon. Together they represent the Eyes of Horus the Elder. The utchat, therefore, is a symbol for the ability to spiritually perceive that which is illuminated, as well as that which is hidden. This section is dedicated to the illumination of that which is hidden. "

So Eye of Ra and Eye of the Toth are Eyes of Horus. Ra is the sun god, and in Ancient Egyptian means ray of light, we saw that Dian pointed out that the word ra in Albanian has similar meanings.

Symbol of the Eye of Ra:
http://cameronlewis.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/eye_ra.jpg

Thus,

the Illyrians El, Yl or Il is sunny deity and

Cushitic word Il, Ila, or Ili is eye.


This can be a good track connection Illyrians with Kushite.

how yes no 2
23-01-11, 13:41
no idont believe ancient makedonians have I2a2,
as you see it seams like j2b was push from north, from the big concentration,


variance of J2b tells us it came from Asia minor...it was spread in Europe mostly along sea coasts...in Dorians it can be about people who went somewhat north and later came back... they could have picked up some I2a2 in Asia minor or on their voyage to north...

btw. Homer seems to call Dorians 3-fold race... thus made out of 3 races


The trichaikes Dorians are mentioned in Odyssey 19. 177. The epithet trichaikes, an hapax legomenon, has been translated either as of threefold race (e.g. denoting the three Dorian sub-tribes Hylleis,Dymanes, Pamphyloi)[11] or long-haired from the noun θρίξ (see Spartan hairstyle) .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians
Hylleis (sounds as hellenic/illyrian component) might be J2b, Pamphyloi (sounds as Paphlagonia where Eneti used to live) might be I2a2


I still believe that, has to do with Dusan, but also Scordisci came after makedonian kingdom
i believe that I2a2 came in Greece via Dusan or simeon, and the peace times and at ottoman empire,

look at more logical explanation

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png


but comparing to I2a2 map... it is not perfect correlation as in fact I2a2 is elevated in areas not settled by Slavs in asia minor and south and southeast Greece...so some or much of I2a2 is pre-Slavic...
though e.g Draguvites could have been cause for I2a2 hotspot in wider area of Macedonia

btw. Maciamo's I2a2 map is not really precise as the hole in I2a2 spread should be on Kosovo and not in east Serbia...., and as Serbia has more I2a2 than shown on map...


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

and the differences of Y-Dna,
for example the J2b in minor asia is from levant, or from crete, sub J2b etc
cause crete has an autochonus J2b,
yes knowing exact distribution of subbranches will make it much easier to guess...

Garrick
26-01-11, 23:24
According Cruciani et al, 2007 a possible time of arrival E carriers to the Balkans is between 4000 and 4700 year ago. It is 2000 to 2700 years BC.

the connection with libya is also an inderesting approach,
but was done by cretan archologists in 1970 and fall cause minoan seems to invade libya before phoenician, the similarity of cities and buildings, is more between lebanon crete and upper egypt,
now about the approach of cruciani et al maybe i m wrong or maybe they but we have almost near 3000,
that connects with different architecture on megalithic, and the age of megalithic structures,
now the connection with the lions worshipers is probably theory cause lions were greeks cities wηere even mycaene

the photo is big so open it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae

but i dont know the time the corrent,
Nubia was known as Kush (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Kush), or, in Classical Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Greece) usage, included under the name Ethiopia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Ethiopia).




hmmm its a good idea
also that goddes bastia is similar to Greek goddes Estia for me lady of fire
but to artemis according herodotus,
although i dont find big similarity to artemis, only in people myths and bad signs
and both virgins.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bast_%28goddess%29

about that garick
My opinion is that roots of Albanian are rather Afroasian than Nilo Saharan, but in Upper Egypt there are also Nilo Saharan languages so that it is the valuable research and comparisons.

i belive that if Dian finds the book he says

Giuseppe Catapano, "Thot Parlava Albanese" Bardi Editore, Roma 1984!

then we have enough and we can find similarities with Greek wich also has Big E-V13

about the approach by sea or by land i find it little difficult by land and not leave small traces of E-V13
exept in case that they were a few at that time and fast move, they should have left a tribe with 25% E-V13 in the road,
That is why i believe that E came by sea,
either from cyprus to Aegean sea, east or west coach,
or from north africa to sicily to aimos peninsula,
or straght to peloponese
besides the first approach in cyclades civilization leads us to admit that sailing was founded before 4000 BC

about that garrick

And for example, Ila is Chushitic word that means eye. Are the words Ila and Ilir, Illyrian can be linked, it is not known.

hmmmm

according epidamnians
with illyrus was a son of cyclopes, cycllopes have 1 eye, probably the 1 eye of ra
above head
or the eye of Horus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Eye_of_Horus.svg

to some scientists the megalithic structures are name cyclopeians, cyclops made them,
to hommer cyclops lived in sicily,
according to them cyclopes invade and stayed in illyria,

But i m missing the eye symbol, have you ever seen an eye symbol in balkans?

sometimes i really wonder why Alexander went to oasis of siwa

Iapetoc
One of the great megalithic structures Neolithic was found in southern Egypt.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nabta_Playa

“Nabta Playa was once a large basin in the Nubian Desert, located approximately 800 kilometers south of modern day Cairo[1] or about 100 kilometers west of Abu Simbel in southern Egypt,[2] 22° 32' north, 30° 42' east.[3]”

It is important to know at what level was this civilization:

“Archaeological discoveries reveal that these prehistoric peoples led livelihoods seemingly at a higher level of organization than their contemporaries who lived closer to the Nile Valley:[2].”

It is important to know where these people came:

“Findings also indicate that the region was occupied only seasonally, most likely only in the summer period, when the local lake filled with water for grazing cattle.[2] Analysis of human remains suggests that these people migrated from sub-Saharan Africa.”

Also important is the impact that they had in Egypt:

“By the 6th millennium BC, evidence of a prehistoric religion or cult appears, with a number of sacrificed cattle buried in stone-roofed chambers lined with clay.[2] It has been suggested that the associated cattle cult indicated in Nabta Playa marks an early evolution of Ancient Egypt's Hathor cult.”

The conclusion of researchers of these structures is as follows:

"The symbolism embedded in the archaeological record of Nabta Playa in the Fifth Millennium BC is very basic, focussed on issues of major practical importance to the nomads: cattle, water, death, earth, sun and stars."[8]

Having now handled by several different populations:
The ancient Egyptians,
Kushites,
Berbers,
Nilo Saharans (Nubians, etc.) or
Ethiopians.

In the next post we will try to clarify who are the most likely ancestors of Illyirians in the Balkans.

iapetoc
27-01-11, 13:55
Garrick Greeks and Illyrians have same ancestors

DejaVu
27-01-11, 19:46
Garrick Greeks and Illyrians have same ancestors

How? Genetical or historical? Source?

iapetoc
27-01-11, 19:55
DejaVU at least they are not Fake

Garrick
28-01-11, 04:09
Garrick Greeks and Illyrians have same ancestors

iapetoc
I keep in mind your thought that Illyros was from the Middle East and that he is the J haplogroup.

This is because some new findings indicate that among the Albanians J haplogroup was negligible, and I will put it and we will comment.

I will also set another interesting DNA finding related to the age of the nations and we will comment on it.

I will put in an interesting finding related to the Peloponnese and the wider Balkan.

Reasonable is doubt among researchers that there is a close connection between the Illyrians and the Albanians.

Also indicative is that the Albanian and Greek differ enormously if the origin is same, that the Albanian in itself probably has elements of Afro-Asiatic languages and remains a mystery as to the language recorded by Europeans until the early 14th century.

But we will continue with the study of Africa to try to determine E carriers and arrival to the Balkans.

Garrick
31-01-11, 02:19
Predominant E1b1b subclade among Berbers is E1b1b1b, and among Albanians (as in whole SEE) it is E1b1b1a.



Shetop
New research shows that the Berber haplogroup E1b1b1b ie. E-M81 exists among the Albanians.

(It also appears that E1b1b1c1 ie. E-M34, but this haplogroup has elsewhere in the Balkans.)

Research in Macedonia FYROM:

www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf (http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf)

_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–______1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4_______1.8______ –_____2.0
G-M201______________3.8______2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343

This shows that among the E holders who have arrived from Africa to the Balkans there were those with Berber roots or any E-M81 population.

Shetop
31-01-11, 16:54
Shetop
New research shows that the Berber haplogroup E1b1b1b ie. E-M81 exists among the Albanians.

(It also appears that E1b1b1c1 ie. E-M34, but this haplogroup has elsewhere in the Balkans.)

Research in Macedonia FYROM:

www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf (http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf)

_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–______1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4_______1.8______ –_____2.0
G-M201______________3.8______2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343

This shows that among the E holders who have arrived from Africa to the Balkans there were those with Berber roots or any E-M81 population.

Thank you very much Garrick. I didn't no about this data. It is obviously the biggest sample from Macedonia (FYROM) so far.

I also saw how yes no has made a nice conclusion from this data - the significant presence of I2a2a-Dinaric distinguishes Slavic from non-Slavic populations in the Balkans. This borderline between Slavic and non-Slavic people in the Balkans appears to be approximately 15% of I2a2a-Dinaric.

iapetoc
31-01-11, 19:39
What time is E1b1b1b-M81 ??
I mean How old Scientists Believe?

so I2a2 came with Invasions of 500 AD or existed?
or existed and at 600 AD simply raised up?

Garrick
31-01-11, 20:41
What time is E1b1b1b-M81 ??
I mean How old Scientists Believe?

so I2a2 came with Invasions of 500 AD or existed?
or existed and at 600 AD simply raised up?

Iapetoc
fact that the Berber haplogroup E-M81 found among the Albanians still further complicates already complicated story of E holders and Albanians, which is extremely complicated, but point by point something we will lighten.

And that for I2a2, How yes now and other, trying to discover, there was still one mystery, if R1a are Slavs it means that the I2a2 are slavinized? But when, how, etc.? More unsolved questions.

It is possible it once existed I language, and there are other forums in Europe, which is widely discussed on.

iapetoc
31-01-11, 21:39
Hmmmmmmmm

Garrick

I mean that R gave language ,
Could some R be rulers of others??/

For Example a small Nation of R1a with Bronze power conquer a Bigger Nation (A) of I2a2 at ex Ucraine and invades Balkans an area of anothernation (B) I2a2 But with soldiers of (A) then the summit of I2a2 would be raised? also the % of previous R1a would be Smaller,

where can i find informations about E-M81?
especially time of mutation, and % in Africa

DejaVu
31-01-11, 21:51
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E_(Y-DNA)
E1b1b1b1 (M81)

While there have been no attested exemplars of E1*, its sub-clade, E1a (M33), is found most often in West Africa, and today it is especially common in the region of Mali (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mali). One study has found haplogroup E1a-M33 Y-chromosomes in as much as 34% (15/44) of a sample of Malian men. Haplogroup E1a also has been detected among samples obtained from Guinea-Bissau (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Guinea-Bissau), Moroccan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Morocco) Berbers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Berber_people), Sahrawis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sahrawi_people), Burkina Faso (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Burkina_Faso), northern Cameroon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cameroon), Senegal (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Senegal), Sudan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sudan), Egypt (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Egypt), Calabria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Calabria) (including both Italian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Italian_people) speakers at 1.3% and Albanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians) speakers at 2.9%), Trentino (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Province_of_Trento) (1/67 or 1.5%), and Portugal (5/553 or approximately 0.9%).
Haplogroup E1a has been detected in North Africa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/North_Africa) and Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Europe) independently of the ubiquitous E1b1a. Because E1b1a is known to have expanded recently, this leaves open the possibility of an ancient expansion from West Africa into North Africa and Europe of E1a lineages.


http://wapedia.mobi/en/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)
Arredi et al. (2004 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#CITEREFArredi_et_al.2004)) believe the pattern of distribution and variance to be consistent with the hypothesis of a post Paleolithic (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Paleolithic) "demic diffusion (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Demic_diffusion)" from the East. The ancestral lineage of E-M81 in their hypothesis could have been linked with the spread of Neolithic (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Neolithic) food-producing technologies from the Fertile Crescent (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Fertile_Crescent) via the Nile (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Nile), although pastoralism (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Pastoralism) rather than agriculture (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Agriculture). E-M81 and possibly proto-Afroasiatic (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Proto-Afroasiatic) language may have been carried either all the way from Asia (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Asia), or they may represent a "local contribution to the North African Neolithic transition". According to Shomarka Keita, a Near Eastern origin of proto-Afroasiatic speakers carrying E-M81, or its ancestral lineage, is inconsistent with the linguistic evidence, which seems to indicate an African origin of Proto-Afro-Asiatic speakers (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Afroasiatic_Urheimat). Keita argues that there is no autochthonous presence of E-M81 in the Near East, indicating that M81 most likely emerged from its parent clade M35 either in the Maghreb, or possibly as far south as the Horn of Africa.
In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Iberian_Peninsula), where unlike in the rest of Europe it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%, and frequencies reaching 9% in Galicia (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Galicia_(Spain)), 10% in Western Andalusia (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Cantabria). The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Cantabria), ranging from 18% (8/45) to 41% (23/56). An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Canary_Islands) with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Tenerife) (10.68%), Gran Canaria (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Gran_Canaria) (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Fuerteventura) (13.33%).
E-M81 is also found in France (http://www.eupedia.com/en/France), 2.70 % (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Auvergne_(region)) (5/89) and Île-de-France (http://www.eupedia.com/en/%C3%8Ele-de-France_(region)) (5/91), in Sicily (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Sicily) (approximately 2% overall, but up to 7% in Piazza Armerina (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Piazza_Armerina)), and in slightly lower frequencies in continental Italy (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Italy) (especially near Lucera (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Lucera)) possibly due to ancient migrations during the Islamic (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Islam_in_Europe), Roman (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Roman_Empire), and Carthaginian (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Carthage) empires.

As a result of its old world distribution, this sub-clade is found throughout Latin America (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Latin_America), for example 6.1% in Cuba (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Cuba), 5.4% in Brazil (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Brazil) (Rio de Janeiro), and among Hispanic (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Hispanic) men from California (http://www.eupedia.com/en/California) and Hawaii (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Hawaii) 2.4%.
In smaller numbers, E-M81 men can be found in areas in contact with the Maghreb, both around the Sahara, in places like Sudan (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Sudan), and around the Mediterranean in places like Lebanon (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Lebanon), Turkey (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Turkey), and amongst Sephardic Jews (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Sephardic_Jews).


Sub Clades of E1b1b1b1 (E-M81)

There are two recognized sub-clades, although one is much more important than the other.

E1b1b1b1a (E-M107). Underhill et al. (2000 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#CITEREFUnderhill_et_al.2000)) found one example in Mali (http://www.eupedia.com/en/Mali).
E1b1b1b2b (E-M183). This clade is extremely dominant within E-M81. In fact, while Karafet et al. (2008 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#CITEREFKarafet_et_al.2008)) continues to describe this as a sub-clade of E-M81, and ISOGG defers to Karafet et al., all data seems to imply that it should actually be considered phylogenetically equivalent to M81. As of 24 November 2008, several SNPs are considered to define sub-clades of E-M183, although the phylogenetic structure is not yet known with confidence: M165, M243, M340, and L19.

Garrick
31-01-11, 23:53
DejaVu
Yes, it was known for the Albanians of Calabria to have E-M81, but I think that in this study revealed for the first time for the Albanians in Macedonia, FYROM.

Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), formerly E1b1b1b, E3b1b, and E3b2, is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Maghreb), dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago.[2] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1)[24] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-Arredi-28) This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from 76% in Morocco to ~10% in Egypt.[25] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-29) It is colloquially referred to as the "Berber (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Berber_people) marker" for its prevalence among Mozabite (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mozabite_people), Middle Atlas (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Middle_Atlas), Kabyle (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kabyle_people) and other Berber (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Berber_people) groups. E-M81 is also quite common among North African Arabic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Maghrebi_Arabic)-speaking groups. It is generally found at frequencies around 45% in coastal cities of the Maghreb (Oran (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Oran), Tunis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tunis), Tizi Ouzou (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tizi_Ouzou), Algiers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Algiers))[26] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-30) but reaches frequencies of up to 80% among some isolated groups of Morocco (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Morocco). This includes the Saharawis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Saharawi) for whose men Bosch et al. (2001 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#CITEREFBosch_et_al.2001)) reports that approximately 76% are M81+. Pereira et al. (2010 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#CITEREFPereira_et_al.2010)) report high levels amongst Tuareg (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tuareg_people) in two Saharan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sahara) populations - 77.8% near Gorom-Gorom (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Gorom-Gorom), in Burkina Faso (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Burkina_Faso), and 81.8% from Gosi (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Gosi&action=edit&redlink=1) in Mali (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mali). There was a much lower frequency of 11.1% in the vicinity of Tanut (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Tanut&action=edit&redlink=1) in the Republic of Niger (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Niger).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/91/Y_Hap_EM-81.PNG

For Lybia and Chad as the south of Algeria investigations are not carried out but no doubt that the E-M81 and there is represented.

Garrick
01-02-11, 00:13
Hmmmmmmmm

Garrick

I mean that R gave language ,
Could some R be rulers of others??/

For Example a small Nation of R1a with Bronze power conquer a Bigger Nation (A) of I2a2 at ex Ucraine and invades Balkans an area of anothernation (B) I2a2 But with soldiers of (A) then the summit of I2a2 would be raised? also the % of previous R1a would be Smaller,

where can i find informations about E-M81?
especially time of mutation, and % in Africa

Iapetoc
Yes, and I think that Serbs and other South Slavic people speak the R1a language.

And when I say Slav and Slavic I primarily think of Slavism in the cultural sense, I already explained.

I'm not sure that I2a2 generally can be called a Slav, in fact I think it cannot.

So the Serbs in a cultural sense are Slavic people and speak a south Slavic language.

But in the DNA sense I think the Serbs are not Slavs, at least not dominant Slavs (as R1a there is among Serbs).

...
You can see that E1b1b1b1 ie. E-M81 colloquially called Berber marker.

It appeared according the sources with Wikipedia before 5600 years.

The dates of occurrence of certain E subclades are very important for our considerations, because we have not yet determined with certainty when E bearers came to the Balkans.

how yes no 2
01-02-11, 23:35
relations between indoeuropean languages

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/11/23/rspb.2010.1917/F4.large.jpg

http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/early/2010/11/23/rspb.2010.1917.full

Garrick
02-02-11, 01:28
What time is E1b1b1b-M81 ??
I mean How old Scientists Believe?

Iapetoc
In addition to finding the "Berber marker" among the Albanians, it is very important and finding Battaglia et al, 2009, European Journal of Human genetics:

"The presence of E-M78 * Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians), previously described only in virtually northeast Africa, upper Nile, 28, 63 gives rise to The question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been."

iapetoc
02-02-11, 04:40
Garrick I believe or better I suspect in the 2 unique IE languages the Greek and the Albanian
my approach is that Greeks Took Ie from Hettits minor asia,
Thrasian R1a was a Germanic that came at 1800 BC
later came a Romano celtic R1b and much Later a Slavic R1a

in Homers Language the acoustic and the words are more near German Language than in other IE language,
Tyrrshenian which was the language Before IE I believe was not an IE language but J2b language similar to eteo-Cretan (although i have my reserves)
my reserves have to do with Hettit Language

My estimations about E has to do with 3 dates
1 is about 3500 +- BC
2 is at 1800 BC
3 is at 700-1000 AD,

in first date i believe they came to Peloponese and then moved north
in second date they came at Sicily then to (Greek named Illyria) and moved south
in 3rd date they came to areas that Greek pagans were slained by christians, at the times of islamization of N Africa.

the unknown words of Albanian Language needs a work from a good team of scientists to prove,
I Also read in a book about a hungarian tribe that invade kossovo at 400 AD, but Ι Have lack of sources.

But as a Greek when I look at ancient Greek from mythology to today,
I see that Greeks have common names in Religion with Egypt Hettit-Lydian and Minoans have similarity with Levant,
(even in Bible names the Palestinians as Cretans)
so if half E of balkans the Greek branche have connection with Egypt and Lybia lands, But Kush people (in Homer Ethiop-s Εθιοψ) probably a devastasion from low Kingdom to Upper Kingdom o west Of Nile to Peloponese happened,
your connections with ma'ahes has a meaning with Lion Symbol etc
also with names and tribes like Mess- that exist in Greek and Italy (south)
you show me first
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maahes

But
Siwa Oasis is one of Egypt's isolated settlements, with 23,000 people, mostly ethnic Berbers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siwa_Oasis#cite_note-EBsiwa-0) who speak a distinct language of the Berber family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_languages) known as Siwi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siwi).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siwa_Oasis
Ethnologue Report for Siwi (http://www.ethnologue.com/show_language.asp?code=siz)
places Siwi in an Eastern Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Berber_languages) group with the Awjila-Sokna languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Awjila-Sokna_languages) of central and eastern Libya. Kossmann (1999)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siwi_language#cite_note-3) links it with Sokna and the Nafusi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nafusi_language) dialect cluster of western Libya and Tunisia, but not with Awjila.

now may i remind you that the word Gypsie in Greek means Egyptian (not Roma) and has to do with population that Ottomans moved to Balkans at 1500 and after,
Even the city name I live is Egyptian by a colonization of orthodox Sinai people that were brought by Turks 1780 to work at the Fields since Greeks deny to work in Turkish 'tsiflik'

DejaVu
03-02-11, 22:07
Wikipedia : Origin of the Albanians

Some facts to consider:
a)The Albanians were never mentioned in Byzantine, (not even of the works by Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus), Arab, Armenian or any other texts before the 12th cent.
Wikipedia :
Byzantine references to Albanians ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#Byzantine_references_to_.2 2Albanians.22)
b)Language:
Albanian is classified as an IE language only because no one has been able to classify it into any other group, and this is because no one has yet studied all the Caucasus languages.
Wikipedia :
Albanian language !

Albanian might have IE sounding words, but its basic structure and syntax are more similar to Chechen and Udish than to any IE language.
Wikipedia :
Albanian language , cognates with Illyrian ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#Cognates_with_Illyrian)

Many Albanian words do sound Indo-European, because Albanian has borrowed over 80% of its vocabulary, more than any other European language.
Wikipedia :
Albanian language , classification ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#Classification)

The Chechen language is similar to Albanian.
Wikipedia :
Chechnyan language !
Wikipedia :
Indo-European languages !

They both have similar grammar and similar sounds such as SQ, PSHQ, which are not common in any IE languages, but are very common in Caucasus languages like Chechenian.
Wikipedia :
Albanian language , consonants ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#Phonetics_and_Phonology)

The Albanians call themselves "Shqip-tari". This name is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" - "Ship-TAR". see:
CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA
Wikipedia :
Albanians(Shqiptarë) !


c)Their alphabet interestingly enough, had Arabic letters until 1908 when the alphabet they use today was adopted.
Wikipedia :
Albanian alphabet(Latin) !

d)The most ancient loanwords from Latin in Albanian have the phonetic form of eastern Balkan Latin, i.e. of proto-Romanian, and not of western Balkan Latin, i.e. of old Dalmatian Latin. Albanian, therefore, did not take its borrowings from Vulgar Latin as spoken in Illyria.
Wikipedia :
Albanian language , Latin borrowings ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#Latin_element_of_the_Albanian_la nguage)

e)The Adriatic coast was not part of the primitive home of the Albanians, because the maritime terminology of Albanian is not their own, but is borrowed from different languages.

Wikipedia :
Albania(Shqipëria) !


f)Another indication against local Albanian origin is the insignificant number of ancient Greek loanwords in Albanian. If the primitive home of the Albanians had been Albania itself, then the Albanian language would have to have many more ancient Greek loanwords.
Wikipedia :
Albanian language , Greek loans ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language#Early_Greek_loans)

g)Just a few, of the many identical place-names between Albania and Caucasus:
Albo-Arnauti -Caucasus- Arnauti
Albo = Arnauti ?
Albani = Latin , Arnavutlu = Turkish !

(Turks and Balkan peoples call Albanians by this name; likely from arch. Turk: Arran)
Wikipedia :
Persian lands , Arran(Rashka) !

Albo-Bushati - Caucasus-Bushati (also the name of an Albanian tribe)
Bushi is a Turkish word , indicating the Turkic spear mans ! George W. Bush isn't Albanian !
Albo-Baboti - Caucasus-Baboti
Baboti is a Greek place name !
Albo-Baka -Caucasus-Bako
Baka derive from the Latin god Bacchus !
Albo-Ballagati - Caucasus-Balagati
This is invented by you !
Albo-Ballaj,Balli - Caucasus- Bali
Balli means : the front - in Albanian language ! Balli kombëtar , "The national front" is the fascist party of Albania !

Albo-Bashkimi - Caucasus-Bashkoi
Bashkimi means the unity , Homer use this word in Iliad "vaskoi" : together !

Albo-Bathore- Caucasus- Batharia
Bathore is village in the periphery of Tirana founded 20 years before !

Albo-Bater- Caucasus- Bataris
Batër ? Maybe Vatër = father land , German "vater" = father !
Albo-Geg - Caucasus-Gegi, Gegeni, Geguti
Ghegh means Greek !
(Term used by Albanians in their language to denote their brethre north of the Shkumbi R.)
The name of the river derive from the ancient Illyrian city "Scampini" !
Albo-Demir Kapia - Caucasus-Demir Kapia
This stupid village was founded by the Ottomans and even these days lives the Turkish minority of Albania !
(Turkish term: "iron gates";
For sure is in Turkish , it was founded by them ! What kind of name should it have ? Irish ?
term by which Turks refered to the Caspian Sea
The iron gate is Gibraltar , good morning !
or arch: Albanian Sea)
A synonym of the Ionian sea , Albanian "jonë" = ours !
Albo-Kish, Kisha... - Caucasus-Kish
Kisha means the CHURCH ! Italian "chiesa" = church !
(Eight different toponyms in Albania begin with "kish")
At least 100 ! Church(kisha) is a typical Albanian place name !
Albo-Kurata,Kuratem,Kurateni(villages)-Caucasus-Kura (river)
Village is said "fshat" in Albanian , is Caucasian village is said "kura" . not even a letter in common !
(Nine different toponyms in Albania begin with "Kura")
Not even one !
Albo-Luginasi - Caucasus-Lugini
Lugina means "valley" , borrowed by Latin "lugus" = place , Italian "luogho" = place !
Albo-Rusani - Caucasus-Rusian
Rusani means "Russian" , a village when lives the Bulgarian minority of Albania !
Albo-Sheshani, Shoshani, Shashani - Caucasus-Shashani
Albo-Sheshaj, Sheshi - Caucasus-Sheshleti
Shesh means "plaza" !
Albo-Skalla - Caucasus-Skaleri
Shkalla means "lader" , Italian "scala" = lader !
Albo-Shiptari Shipyaki, Shkhepa, - Caucasus-Shkepi
Shkëmb means "clif" , Illyrian "Scampa" = "clif" !
Albo-Shkoder - Caucasus-Shkeder, Shked, Shkoda
Shkodra is the ancient capital of Illyria ! Shkodra(Albanian) = Skodra(Illyrian) !
Albo-Shekulli - Caucasus-Shekouli
Shekulli means "century" , Latin "seculus" = century !
Albo-Skuraj - Caucasus-Skuria
Shkurre means "bush" , Italian = scuro "dark" !

h) The fact that Albanian is totally alien to the Illyrian language based on the Messapic inscriptions found in tombs. So we must come to the conclusion that they either came from a different location (Caucasus theory) or the Illyrian tribes had absolutely NO ability of communicating with each other.
(that does sound stupid don't you think?)
Wikipedia :
Messapic language , Albanian cognates ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messapic_language#Messapian_words)


i) The Illyrian city names mentioned in ancient times that were kept do not follow the Albanian sound change laws, suggesting that they were late borrowing from an intermediary language (most likely Romance or Slavic), rather than inherited (for example ancient Aulona should have been inherited in modern Albanian as Alor? instead of Vlore.
The ancient Illyria city was named Avlona ! Vlona in medieval Albanian ! Vlora in modern Albanian !

j)Ptolemy in Book 5 chapter 15 titled "Location of Illyria or Liburnia, and of Dalmatia" (The Fifth Map of Europe)
Never mentions the alleged "albanopolis" that they support he has, and can be found at 46 degrees and 41 degrees 45', but when you look up what he really has writen, you find the city of Thermidava
Ptolemy's Geography can be found at :
penelope.uchicago.edu/Tha.../home.html
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/45/Illyrians.jpg/800px-Illyrians.jpg

k) Now, when we look at apostle Bartholomew's life, we find he labored in the area around the south end of the Caspian Sea, in the section that was then called Armenia. The modern name of the district where he died is Azerbaijan and the place of his death, called in New Testament times ALBANOPOLIS!!!, is now Derbend which is on the west coast of the Caspian Sea.
aZERBaijan !

l) Out of a list of 40-50 Illyrian city names known to us only 2-5 of the Albanian city names can be connected to them.
Skodra=Shkodra , Lissos=Lezha , Dyrrachios=Durresi , Albanopolis=Albania , Ad Pycaria=Puka , Avlona = Vlona/Vlora , Appolonia = Apollonia , Redon = Rodon , Scampini = Shkumbini , Latio = Laci , Clissura = Kelcyra etc.

m) There is NO MEMORY!!! of the Illyrian past in the Albanian cultural heritage.
Illyrian names :
Agron = agim "sunrise"
Hyll = yll "star"
Bardhyll = Bardh Yll "white star"
Darda = dardha "pear" etc.

n) One of the interesting facts that connect the Albanians to the Caucasus and that they are not the descendants of the Ancient Illyrians is the Turkish name for the Albanians. "Arnauti", which means "those who have not returned" in Arabic, for the Turks were aware of the origins of the Albanians. And they truly did not return, they stayed in Serbian and Byzantine lands.
The Turks call the Albanians : Arnavutlu ! Derive from Arabic "Arnaoud" : "lion heart" !

o) Hard evidence is the Turkish censuses carried out in 1455, they indicate that Albanian names are found in only 80 of the 600 villages listed in the area, and that they did not constitute territorial groups, ruling out any assumptions that zones evenly and continuously inhabited by Albanians existed at the time.
http://www.albanian.com/information/history/ethnicma/IMAGES/LEJEAN.JPG

p) The first Albo dictionary was published in 1635 and contained only 5,000 words, when today any pocket dictionary contains at least 250.000 proving that their language was still under development.
It was call the "Latino-Epiroticum" dictionary !

q) The most interesting fact is our knowledge of the Arab conquer of the Albanian Caucasus sometime around the 7th cent based on Byzantine, Arab and Armenian sources.
They were converted to Islam and used as military troops to attack Sicily, dividing it into two parts, (hence there was the Kingdom of the two Sicilies). In order to populate their part of Sicily, the Arabs brought with them Old Albanians from the Caucasus.
Wikipedia :
Islamization of Albania , 1500 AD ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Albania#Ottoman_occupation)

Then in 1042, the Byzantine Empire attacked the young Serbian state after having defeated the Arabs in Sicily and having brought the Sicilian Albanians under their command and christianizing them. The leader of the Byzantines who led the Albanians was named Georgius Maniakos. Maniakos brought Albanian mercenaries from Sicily to fight the Serbs and they settled in two waves in modern day Albania, first the mercenaries came, and then came the women and children. After the defeat of Maniakos, the Byzantines would not let the Albanians return, thus the Albanians requested that the Serbs let them stay on the land. They settled under mount Raban and the city of Berat and from this, the Serbs called them "Rabanasi" or "Arbanasi". The city of Berat was known as Belgrad also, before the Albanians came to settle there. They mostly tended sheep and cattle and lent themselves out to Serbian nobles as brave soldiers.
Wikipedia :
Illyrian tribe : Albani ! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Illyrian_tribes#Albani)

A fact to support this except the texts themselves is their flag. I'm sure you know that the Byzantine war flag was a double headed eagle on a red background.
Albanian flag :
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/36/Flag_of_Albania.svg/700px-Flag_of_Albania.svg.png

HITTITE(Proto-Aryan) flag :
http://symboldictionary.net/library/graphics/symbols/hittiteeagle.jpg

Garrick
04-02-11, 01:54
Iapetoc
You started right questions and we'll get to them. But to have them come we have to determine about which the population in Africa is the word: The ancient Egyptians, Kushites, Berber, Somali, Nilo Saharan, etc.?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Nilo-Saharan.png

Languages families, Africa


One study carried out in Albania found that
HbS mutation in the Albanian sample is the Benin (Nigeria)-originating haplotype #19.

The study focuses on
characterization of sickle cell mutations.
Boletini E (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Boletini%20E%22%5BAuthor%5D), Svobodova M (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Svobodova%20M%22%5BAuthor%5D), Divoky V (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Divoky%20V%22%5BAuthor%5D), Baysal E (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Baysal%20E%22%5BAuthor%5D), Cürük MA (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22C%C3%BCr%C3%BCk%20MA%22%5BAuthor%5D ), Dimovski AJ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Dimovski%20AJ%22%5BAuthor%5D), Liang R (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Liang%20R%22%5BAuthor%5D), Adekile AD (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Adekile%20AD%22%5BAuthor%5D), Huisman TH (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=%22Huisman%20TH%22%5BAuthor%5D).
Sickle cell anemia, sickle cell beta-thalassemia, and thalassemia major in Albania: characterization of mutations.

Hum Genet. (javascript:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Hum%20Genet. ');) 1994 Feb;93(2):182-7.


We already have enough elements given on this subject we can think about different African roots (for example Benin is Niger-Congo population) and this complicate research.


But my own view is closest Cushitic (Hamitic) origin.

Therefore, the next post we will go to ancient Kush, where lived Hamitic and Nilo Saharan peoples, which is bordered with Upper Egypt, and where are the boundaries and populations changed.

Today's territory ancient Kush (Nubia) includes part of the territory of Egypt and Sudan.

Albanien
06-02-11, 08:07
@DejaVu

Kastrioti was Albanian. Barleti was a friend of him and an ally. In His book he refers to Albanians as Epirotans and Macedonians, Alexander the great as Albanese hero, and also Pyrrhus as Albanese hero, Never Greek or Slavic. Medieval Albanians claimed ancestry of ancient Macedonia and Epirus, and never called themselves Greeks or Slavs. This is why Kastrioti wore Alexanders helmet.

Now Greeks read these kind of things and say Kastrioti was Greek haha, when in really we are Epirotans and Macedonians, not Greeks.

If Kastrioti was Greek then every Albanian is Greek, even Leke Dukagjini founder of the Kanun and an ally of Skanderbeg. Skanderbeg gathered all Albanians to fight the Turks, not Greeks or Slavs. He only had one Montenigrian family in his army.

When Albanians fought Turks, it was an Albanian national awakening, we claimed descendants of Epirus and Macedonia, now you call us Greeks and Slavs?

Alexander the great is Albanian hero and so is Pyrrhus, not Greek or Slavic. Macedonia is Albanian, and so is Epirus. Albania was called Epirus by Barleti (NOT THE EPIRUS in south ALBANIA, wake up) but whole Albania was called Epirus/EPIRE during national awakening.

If you wanna read translation of Barleti's book, you can read Mina Skafte, explaining Barleti's book. because it is misunderstood by Greeks who think Epirotans and Macedonians are Greeks lol, and by Slavs who think they are Macedonians.

http://miqesia.dk/Barleti-Scanderbeg.htm

As for, Albanian-Berber... Cameroons are high in R1a, so are Russians, this means they are the closely related eh? lol

I can find you many connections between Ancient-Macedonian and Albanian, like the Plis, and ancient dances, fustanella etc... And also Epirotan. how come only Albanians have these kind of things? Albanians also still have elemets of ancient Greek mythology. like Zevs, Afrodite etc. Why don't Slavs from Macedonia have this then?

http://i42.tinypic.com/jqmd11.jpg

Albanian warrior, Prek Cali, with Albanian Plis Hat, also used in Ancient Macedonia.

http://www.peshkupauje.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/isa-boletini.jpg

Albanian warriors with Plis Hats.

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/images/AchillesPatroclos.jpg

Achilles and Patroclus. Notice the Plis hat on Patroclos head.

To this day Albanians are the only ones using the Plis Hat, it's our culture.

http://i41.tinypic.com/2yxp6xx.jpg

Odysseus with Plis hat.

I can post more pictures of Ancient Greeks with Plis Hats.

Now lets look at Alexander on Albanian Coins:

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ0Lc_1MsJDQAnnQo2gdZnQvpQFPAn8d UZClY78_tqc3KExsuTL&t=1

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_-xP7ZrVCwHA/SOf8Ujtb8JI/AAAAAAAAEIo/is5HJVc_QFc/skanderbeg333.jpg

Skanderbeg. Notice his Ancient-Macedonian helmet, the goat with two horns.

This does not make him Greek or Slav haha, this makes us Albanians claiming Macedonian And Epirotan ancestry, but maybe you need to wake up? And why you call him only Greek or Slav? Why not All Albanians? Because he is the greatest warrior of all time? so you need to claim him?

And another thing, you'll never find the word Shqipetar or ''Albanian'' before 16th century or something like that. Because we actually called ourselves Arbereshe/Arvanite and Even EPIROTAN before 15th century. But maybe Greeks need to wake up? We've been claiming this shit since medieval times.

But you people live in a fairytale. The greatest warriors in the Balkans, have all been of Albanian origin.

My goodness, it's so funny, because Barleti called Skanderbeg Epirotan, now Greeks think he was Greek, and he wore Alexanders helmet, now FYROMS think he was a Slav. But did you know Barleti called Albania for Epire/Epirus? Did you know he called all Albanians EPIROTANS? and Skanderbeg as Prince of EPIRUS? (PRINCE OF ALBANIA) Now are you gonna call us all Greeks then? haha. You only like to Say Kastrioti was Greek or Slav to manipulate Albanian history and also since he was a great warrior.

Maybe you need to read more books, read here:

http://miqesia.dk/Barleti-Scanderbeg.htm

Also Greek children in Schools learned that Albanians are their brothers.
Greek historians wrote, after the Albanians liberated Greece, that Albanians are Ancient-Macedonians and Epirotans, close related to Greeks.

Albanien
06-02-11, 08:19
http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/3622/italy2leke1940albania3yj.jpg

Alexander the great on Albanian Lek.

Lek is what Albanians call Alexander. Leka I madh means Alexander the great.

Another thing, how can you claim a person that fought for Albanese (EPIRTOANS in Barleti)? Not Greeks or Slavs. haha so funny.

And Barleti was Albanian himself. He wrote about Albanian history and is one of the first Albanian historians. He called Albania for Epirus, Albanians for Epirotans and claimed Alexander and Pyrrhus as Albanese heroes. He called Skanderbeg prince of Epirus (Prince of Albania) and throned Skanderbeg as one of the national heroes with Alexander and Pyrro.

What is so hard to understand? There is no Greek connection to Skanderbeg, only a misunderstanding. But Albanians are closely related to Greeks.

iapetoc
06-02-11, 12:23
Albanien If you want propaganda I will give many copy paste

Stop Bullshit nationalistic claims,
Kastrioti is an Albanian Hero But his origin is ubder search, cause had slavic and Greek blood also
about Alaxender he was an Argeiad
2 followers King were Illyrian only although Half of his Army was E Ydna
read sources, only 2 kings near Ohrid and west of Prespes lake the other,

now about the army of kastrioti search who was Aryanit-is
and who was his Wife and were Aryanit-is gather Army

nationalism must stay out, plz for God shake do not spam nationalistic Bullshit

lets keep this Thread in purely genetics and Historical and Linguistic Approach

the Dna relation among Greeks and Albanians as also the Linguistic similarity among Greeks and south Slavic is known
the Different Nations that Greeks and Albanians are is another subject,

now Albanien do you have any Data,
that can help the thread or some Data that can help search Elsewhere??????
I leave kastrioti and Alexander out,
As also land claims.
now until today Epirotans are Greeks and Epirus is Greece
and cams and Cammeria is the Albanian approach of Epirus,
but that has to do with 1200-1500 Ad when the Big master was Epirus Despotat,

Garrick
06-02-11, 13:47
Albanien
This is another topic.

What you write is the subject of Macedonians and I think it would be good to take part in the subject and you could contribute.

Alonzo
06-02-11, 14:04
This thread is as stupid as it can get.

First of All the Albanian and Balkan E1b1b has nothing to do with the Moroccan E1b1b, the Balkan Albanian E1b1b is also called E V13 whereas the Berber one is called E M81, these haplogroups split from each other 20 000 Years ago even more.

If Albanians and Montenegrians are Related to Morrocans then clearly Polish and Russian people are Related to Siberian Brahami Indians which are high in R1a.

Secondly Haplogroup E V13 is Autochtonmous European it is even older than R1b and R1a in the Balkans, Haplogroup E V13 is the Genetic Marker of Neolithic Farmers which flooded the Balkans and Europe 10 000 - 15 000 Years ago.

If it wasn't for Haplogroup E V13 the Paleolithic Cave People and Carriers of I1b would be living in Caves.

Anyways this thread is stupid so here are my 2 cents :)

Of course, all E1b1b1 (Albanian, Moroccan etc ) are phylogenetically closely related even if they belong to different subclades. Indeed, all E1b1b1 people, whatever their suclades (E-V13, E-M81 etc ), share, according to the last Phylogenetic tree, a common male ancestor (E-M35) who lived in Africa "only" 20 000 years ago which is considered as "recent". In the phylogenetic tree E-M78 and E-M81 are "siblings" and their respective main subclades E-V13 and E-M183 are "1st cousin" so very close.

For comparison, the common ancestor between E-V13 and R1a, R1a, I is CT-M168 and lived about 70 000 years ago ! A huge difference of 50 000 years ...

So in any case E-V13, which arose in West Asia around 10 000 years ago, are much too young to be considered as "autochtonous European" as their ancestors still live in Africa 15 000 years ago. They are much closer phylogenetically to E-M81 or any other E1b1b1 subclades than they are to R1b or I...

By the way, Albanian phenotypes are much more similar to Berber phenotypes than to Swedish or Finnish phenotypes which is very likely explained by this.

DejaVu
06-02-11, 21:37
Barleti is Georija's biograph, a bishop that lived in Georgija's rule...In his book "Historia de vita et rebus gestis Scanderbegi" he refers to Kastriot only with "King of Epirus and Macedonia"

King of Epirus and Macedonia = Not Albania.

T. Spanducci, a writer from the 17th century in his book "Historia" wrote:
"Georgija Kastriot was respected not only by his tribe, the Mijak tribe but all other nations, even the Turks. His mother was Vojislava, a Macedonian woman, daughter of a nobleman from Polog, which of course is a part of Macedonia..."
And then he concludes:
"The Mijak tribe and all the other Slovenes have many reasons for the glorification and the singed songs about their hero Georgija Kastriot, because he fought for the protection of the slav culture, for the christian cross and for the freedom, but also because he had the most noble name from his kind - Georgija"

Mijak Tribe = "ethnic Macedonians" and Not Albanians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks



Charter written by the hand of Ivan Kastriot to the Monastery of Hilendar, on Sveta Gora, from 1426.

In this document, written in Old Church Slavic language the following is written.

"According to the unspeakable mercy of my ruler Christ, I, sinful and
unworthy, must not be mistaken to my Jesus Christ, Ivan Kastriot and my sons Stanisha and Riposha and Konstantin and Georgij. have contributed to the Holy monastery great Prechista of the ruler Lavri of Hilendar and I contributed the village Rodostushe and the church St.Prechista Bogorodica, also in that village Rodostushe and the village Trebishte.

The writing is confirmed with a seal with the name of Ivan Kastriot,
written in Cyrillic alphabet (See documents in: St.Novakovich, Legal
monuments./fifth book, pg. 467).

From the correspondence with the Dubrovnik Republic, having political,
military and trade relations, three letters have been saved written also in
Cyrillic alphabet. His Macedonian-Christian spirit and character is clearly seen from the letters. This spirit is mostly expressed in the letter from 25 February 1420, sent to the landowner Petar from Dubrovnik, which says:

"My faith in Christ as well as the faith of my sons Reposh, Stanislav,
Konstantin and Georgija. My Gjorgjian country, extending from Konjuh (now Elbasan) to Prizren, is maintained and cultivated by me, Mr. Ivan and my sons."


Language of Ivan and Georgija Kastriot = "Macedonian (Old church slavonic)" and Not Albanian.


End of discussion (Kastriot). Not relevant to continue about it here in this thread.

Albanien
07-02-11, 11:08
Show me were Kastrioti had Greek or Slavic blood? A northern Albanian of Greek blood? no chance. Maybe if he was from South.

Because Barleti called him Prince of Epirus? lol, I already explained that. Barleti called Albania for Epirus and Kastrioti as King of Epirus (King of Albania) You can read Minna Skafte's book translation. But this is a face palm for Greeks since it shows their so called history is actually Albanian history. lol.

No Propaganda at all. Is Barleti propaganda? Yet you mention him as a source... lol Barleti is one of Albanias first Historians.

@DejaVu So the Albanians of Macedonia (FYROM) are Slavs eh? His mother was Albanian from Macedonia. Since his name was Ivan this makes him a slav? lol. I have a German name, does this make me German?

As for the Majiak, I will come to that later. His family were actually originally Albanians from Kosovo, not Macedonia or Albania.

And if you read history, Barleti told him ''You are Albanian, not Turk'' that's when he and 100's of other Albanians changed sides and went on to Kruje. Not Macedonian Slav or Greek. But you can discuss his origin as much as you want.

Is Diber Slavic or Albanian?

Albanien
07-02-11, 11:42
Barleti is Georija's biograph, a bishop that lived in Georgija's rule...In his book "Historia de vita et rebus gestis Scanderbegi" he refers to Kastriot only with "King of Epirus and Macedonia"

King of Epirus and Macedonia = Not Albania.Do you even read what I write? Albanians in medieval times claimed ancestry of Macedonia and Epirus. and we still do. Alexander the great is a national hero in Albania he was even used in our Lek. But since you don't understand this you think he was Greek or Slavic lol. Nice try lol. Because if Kastrioti is Greek/Slav then all Albanians are, because Barleti called All Albanians Macedonians/EPirotans. the word ''Shqiptar'' was not used at that time.

@Dejavu You're actually not claiming that Kastrioti was Slavic, you're claiming that he was half Slavic since his mother origin is allot discussed. His father was not from the Mijak tribe he was Albanian, his mother was from Macedonia but she was also Albanian, not from the Mijak tribe, where did you get this information from?

His Mother was probably from Debar (DIBER) not Mijak. Diber is Albanian populated place, the whole West Macedonia is Albanian populated, and even Skopje


During the time of the Albanian prince Gjergj Kastriot Skanderbeg, Debar played a major role in the rebellions of the Albanian population against the Ottomans. Debar region was the borderline between the Ottomans and the rebels between 1443 and 1465 and became an area of continuous conflict. There were two major battles near Debar April 29, 1444 and September 27, 1446, both ending as Ottoman defeats.
Not Maijak :)

As for his father, as I said again, he was Albanian from North Albania, while his grandfather Pal had origin from Kosovo and even fought in the battle of Kosovo. There is even a theory that Milosh Obili was Albanian from Kosovo, not a Slav. But that's another thing. Even if his mother was majiak this would make him only half Slavic half Albanian but the fact is that she was Albanian princess from Diber.

Was Moisi Arianit Golemi also a Majikak? lol. You get too excited Moisi Arianit Golemi was also Albanian from Diber (Debar)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moisi_Golemi

His father:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjergj_Arianit_Komneni

I'm just showing you Albanian heroes from Diber that allied with Skanderbeg, and not Maijak. Mention one Maijak warrior that allied with Kastrioti? none.

His father's origin was never disputed as he was King of Albania. Another theory about his mothers origin is that she was a Princess from the Pollog Valley, Tetov or Gostivar, which are both mostly Albanian populated places. Thus makes her Albanian Princess and not a Slav. Don't forget Albanians don't just live in Kosovo and Albania. Albanians have lived in Macedonia and Montenegro way before ottoman war.

Now time to quote Minna Skafte:


Just imagine what would happen if Alexander the Great returned! Or Pyrrhus, who in his day fought so brilliantly against the Romans! They would hardly be able to recognize their country, but would leave again full of contempt, because it was no longer a home of freedom as in their day. The present squalor is so overwhelming that the author fears he will be unable to convince his readers that Albania was glorious not only in antiquity, but also during the immediately preceding period. Freedom reigned supreme, where now slavery has spread. In those times the whole world looked to Epirus in admiration, where now the only question is whether fortune will never weary of plaguing the country.

Barleti repeatedly stresses the national aspect of his work. Scanderbeg is not only an impressive hero, but also the saviour of his native country. When he is compared with Alexander the Great and Pyrrhus, these are not arbitrarily chosen models from antiquity, but national heroes, for Alexander's Macedonia and Pyrrhus' Epirus are for Barleti synonymous with his own country. Mostly he calls it Epirus, but also often Albania. In a digression early in the work he elucidates his view upon the history of the nation based on the Roman historiographer Pompeius Trogus and his own contemporary, Pope Pius. Thus, the Albanians originally lived in Colchis on the Black Sea, from where they brought their language. They first emigrated to the Albanian hills near Rome. When Hercules as one of his twelve tasks had killed Geryones and was driving the latter’s cattle from Spain through Italy, he stayed for a time in the Albanian hills. From there the Albanians followed him, and they now live in Macedonia and the Peloponnese.
What remains of the Albanians in this Roman picture? The question is difficult to answer because of the lack of other sources. Barleti especially stresses their trustworthiness and love of freedom, and even though he describes his compatriots from the emigrant's point of view, he does not let himself grow sentimental. The tone is rather one of fond indulgence: they are not the most obvious defendants of Christianity. In a situation in which they accompany Scanderbeg and his army with ardent prayers for victory he writes: "Never before had God been so overwhelmed with prayers by the more bellicose than pious people of Epirus"! Stop trying to manipulate our history, we claimed Epirotan and Macedonian ancestry before you even knew what it was. Now you like to call us Greeks and Slavs. lol.

Another thing, Skanderbegs family actually fled to Italy you can find the Arbereshe (Albanians) in Italy who are his descendants, they speak Albanian, Albanian culture, use the Albanian two headed eagle and are Catholics, not Orthodox Christians. Not Greeks or Slavs.

Arbereshe is what we called us before but we changed to Shqiptar. You can find Albanians in Ukraine, Greece, and Italy that escaped from Ottoman war. they still call themselves Albanians.

This thing about Arvanites ashamed of being Albanians is Greek propaganda. Because I know Arvanites it's a Greek word for Albanian/Arbereshe.

As for Macedonia, Tetov, Skopje and Diber have been Albanian cities way before Ottoman time, this has been historically recorded. Barleti mentions Albanians/Epirotans from Diber coming to help Kastrioti.

And don't forget Barleti was Albanian himself, he was the one who told Kastrioti you're Albanian and not a Turk. Because Kastrioti couldn't remember when he was kidnapped until he was reminded.

And beautiful how you mention Elbasan and Prizren, all Albanian cities way before Ottoman time.

As for Alexander the great, he has nothing to do with the Macedonian Slavs. Alexander's mother was originally from Epirus thus Alexander was Albanian. His cousin was Pyrrhus. Alexander was actually Epirotan rather than Macedonian. No one even knew who his father was since his mother never really slepped with Philip. So I would call Alexander Epirotan rather than Macedonian.

Epirotan = Albanian.

Dardanian, Macedonian, Epirotan = Albanian.

All Albanian kingdoms.

And I don't think Ancient Macedonians have any connection with the Slavs of Macedonia. Todays FYROM was originally inhabited by Ancient Albanians until the Slavic invasion. and Albanians were driven away from their land. But you still have Albanians living in Macedonia.

And don't talk about Barleti when you never read his book. Mina Skafte has translated/explained it very well. Anything you wonder, you can read from there.

King of Epirus = King of Albania

Only a brainwashed ingnorant idiot would deny the Epirotan ancestry of the Albanians.

Now Kastrioti lived and protected the castle of Kruje. Barleti was there also. Albanians gathered there. And you still talk about Slavic and Greek ancestry of Kastrioti? I don't even think you know what you are talking about yourself. You only get too excited when you hear the word Macedonian or Epirotan but sorry in this case, Ancient-Macedonian and Epirotan word is refered to Albanian. :)

As for Albanians and Berbers.. How about Greeks and Berbers then? lol

Or Serbs and Berbers? Since they are also very high in E...

Why is it always Albanian this Albanian that? So much anti-Albanian here..
How come Russia has E? How come Caucasus has E? ETC ETC.
How do you know E or J came from Egypt and to Albania?

E and J are actually the same, or close related which actually doesn't make Albanian a mixed race.
Can you explain the high J in Romanians?

Why does Albanian share so many words with Celtic?
Why does Albanian share so many words with Romanian? etc.

You're ignoring these facts. and focus only on a North African origin of Albanians. But don't forget, Albanians ruled Egypt. Mohammed Ali Pasha of Egypt was the founder of modern Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt

And don't forget Greek settlements in Egypt, who were probably E carriers.

Anyway do these two guys look Albanian?

http://www.topnews.in/sports/files/zinedine-zidane3365.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IgHIGUzKzU8/TNrxcup-r2I/AAAAAAAAHgs/WnPVwg1c-Ss/s1600/karim-benzema.jpg

But still, even if Albanians have Berber origin, we are talking about thousands and thousands of years. Scottish people also claim Egyptian origin. some claim Sarmatian.

Albanien
07-02-11, 13:08
@DeJavu Albanian is an Indo European language. Because Albanians are high E carriers this means we are north Africans? lol What about Greeks then? What are they?

Come on let's get real. Stop the hating.

Albanian is an Indo European language, just like Greek who also are high E carriers.

The fact is that it's disputed weather Albanian is Sentum or Satem here is a map:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Centum_Satem_map.png

As you can see, Albanian is in the middle of Centum and Satem. Blue is Centum, while Satem is in red. While some argue that Illyrian was Centum and some argue it was Satem, while others say Thracian was Satem close to Iranian. Some argue Thracians were Iranian settlers. But that is another topic. I don't know where you get your information from, but never has anyone disputed that Albanian is a indo European language, it's only discussed weather it's Centum or Satem.

And the fact that Albanian is distinct from other Indo-European language it still doesn't make it close to Afro-Asiatic or any other non European language, it just makes it pretty old. Albanian is older than Greek.


In 3200 BC, there were many, many languages spoken besides Sumerian and Egyptian, but they weren't fortunate enough to have a writing system. These languages are just as old. To take one interesting case, the Albanian language (spoken north of Greece) was not written down until about the 15th century AD, yet Ptolemy mentions the people in the first century BC.* The linguistic and archaeological evidence suggests that Albanians were a distinct people for even longer than that. So Albanian has probably existed for several millennia, but has only been written down for 500 years. With a twist of fate, Albanian might be considered very "old" and Greek pretty "new".

*See An Introduction to the Indo-European Languages by Philip Baldi.

DejaVu
07-02-11, 20:24
Show me were Kastrioti had Greek or Slavic blood? A northern Albanian of Greek blood? no chance. Maybe if he was from South.

Because Barleti called him Prince of Epirus? lol, I already explained that. Barleti called Albania for Epirus and Kastrioti as King of Epirus (King of Albania) You can read Minna Skafte's book translation. But this is a face palm for Greeks since it shows their so called history is actually Albanian history. lol.

No Propaganda at all. Is Barleti propaganda? Yet you mention him as a source... lol Barleti is one of Albanias first Historians.

@DejaVu So the Albanians of Macedonia (FYROM) are Slavs eh? His mother was Albanian from Macedonia. Since his name was Ivan this makes him a slav? lol. I have a German name, does this make me German?

As for the Majiak, I will come to that later. His family were actually originally Albanians from Kosovo, not Macedonia or Albania.

And if you read history, Barleti told him ''You are Albanian, not Turk'' that's when he and 100's of other Albanians changed sides and went on to Kruje. Not Macedonian Slav or Greek. But you can discuss his origin as much as you want.

Is Diber Slavic or Albanian?

Fabrication explanation with no evidence. If you continue making everything to fit in as Albania or Albanians then you must find psychological help because you got big identity problems. If you cant get this in your head then I will repost same information until you got real evidence.

Mijak tribe = ethnic Macedonians
Language = Old church slavonic (Macedonian)
Country or place = Epirus and Macedonia

NOBODY MENTIONING ANYTHING ABOUT ALBANIA OR ALBANIANS (EPIRUS IS NOT ALBANIA).

FACT!

Elias2
07-02-11, 21:36
Do you even read what I write? Albanians in medieval times claimed ancestry of Macedonia and Epirus. and we still do. Alexander the great is a national hero in Albania he was even used in our Lek. But since you don't understand this you think he was Greek or Slavic lol. Nice try lol. Because if Kastrioti is Greek/Slav then all Albanians are, because Barleti called All Albanians Macedonians/EPirotans. the word ''Shqiptar'' was not used at that time.

@Dejavu You're actually not claiming that Kastrioti was Slavic, you're claiming that he was half Slavic since his mother origin is allot discussed. His father was not from the Mijak tribe he was Albanian, his mother was from Macedonia but she was also Albanian, not from the Mijak tribe, where did you get this information from?

His Mother was probably from Debar (DIBER) not Mijak. Diber is Albanian populated place, the whole West Macedonia is Albanian populated, and even Skopje

Not Maijak :)

As for his father, as I said again, he was Albanian from North Albania, while his grandfather Pal had origin from Kosovo and even fought in the battle of Kosovo. There is even a theory that Milosh Obili was Albanian from Kosovo, not a Slav. But that's another thing. Even if his mother was majiak this would make him only half Slavic half Albanian but the fact is that she was Albanian princess from Diber.

Was Moisi Arianit Golemi also a Majikak? lol. You get too excited Moisi Arianit Golemi was also Albanian from Diber (Debar)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moisi_Golemi

His father:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjergj_Arianit_Komneni

I'm just showing you Albanian heroes from Diber that allied with Skanderbeg, and not Maijak. Mention one Maijak warrior that allied with Kastrioti? none.

His father's origin was never disputed as he was King of Albania. Another theory about his mothers origin is that she was a Princess from the Pollog Valley, Tetov or Gostivar, which are both mostly Albanian populated places. Thus makes her Albanian Princess and not a Slav. Don't forget Albanians don't just live in Kosovo and Albania. Albanians have lived in Macedonia and Montenegro way before ottoman war.

Now time to quote Minna Skafte:

Stop trying to manipulate our history, we claimed Epirotan and Macedonian ancestry before you even knew what it was. Now you like to call us Greeks and Slavs. lol.

Another thing, Skanderbegs family actually fled to Italy you can find the Arbereshe (Albanians) in Italy who are his descendants, they speak Albanian, Albanian culture, use the Albanian two headed eagle and are Catholics, not Orthodox Christians. Not Greeks or Slavs.

Arbereshe is what we called us before but we changed to Shqiptar. You can find Albanians in Ukraine, Greece, and Italy that escaped from Ottoman war. they still call themselves Albanians.

This thing about Arvanites ashamed of being Albanians is Greek propaganda. Because I know Arvanites it's a Greek word for Albanian/Arbereshe.

As for Macedonia, Tetov, Skopje and Diber have been Albanian cities way before Ottoman time, this has been historically recorded. Barleti mentions Albanians/Epirotans from Diber coming to help Kastrioti.

And don't forget Barleti was Albanian himself, he was the one who told Kastrioti you're Albanian and not a Turk. Because Kastrioti couldn't remember when he was kidnapped until he was reminded.

And beautiful how you mention Elbasan and Prizren, all Albanian cities way before Ottoman time.

As for Alexander the great, he has nothing to do with the Macedonian Slavs. Alexander's mother was originally from Epirus thus Alexander was Albanian. His cousin was Pyrrhus. Alexander was actually Epirotan rather than Macedonian. No one even knew who his father was since his mother never really slepped with Philip. So I would call Alexander Epirotan rather than Macedonian.

Epirotan = Albanian.

Dardanian, Macedonian, Epirotan = Albanian.

All Albanian kingdoms.

And I don't think Ancient Macedonians have any connection with the Slavs of Macedonia. Todays FYROM was originally inhabited by Ancient Albanians until the Slavic invasion. and Albanians were driven away from their land. But you still have Albanians living in Macedonia.

And don't talk about Barleti when you never read his book. Mina Skafte has translated/explained it very well. Anything you wonder, you can read from there.

King of Epirus = King of Albania

Only a brainwashed ingnorant idiot would deny the Epirotan ancestry of the Albanians.

Now Kastrioti lived and protected the castle of Kruje. Barleti was there also. Albanians gathered there. And you still talk about Slavic and Greek ancestry of Kastrioti? I don't even think you know what you are talking about yourself. You only get too excited when you hear the word Macedonian or Epirotan but sorry in this case, Ancient-Macedonian and Epirotan word is refered to Albanian. :)

As for Albanians and Berbers.. How about Greeks and Berbers then? lol

Or Serbs and Berbers? Since they are also very high in E...

Why is it always Albanian this Albanian that? So much anti-Albanian here..
How come Russia has E? How come Caucasus has E? ETC ETC.
How do you know E or J came from Egypt and to Albania?

E and J are actually the same, or close related which actually doesn't make Albanian a mixed race.
Can you explain the high J in Romanians?

Why does Albanian share so many words with Celtic?
Why does Albanian share so many words with Romanian? etc.

You're ignoring these facts. and focus only on a North African origin of Albanians. But don't forget, Albanians ruled Egypt. Mohammed Ali Pasha of Egypt was the founder of modern Egypt.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_Ali_of_Egypt

And don't forget Greek settlements in Egypt, who were probably E carriers.

Anyway do these two guys look Albanian?

http://www.topnews.in/sports/files/zinedine-zidane3365.jpg


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_IgHIGUzKzU8/TNrxcup-r2I/AAAAAAAAHgs/WnPVwg1c-Ss/s1600/karim-benzema.jpg

But still, even if Albanians have Berber origin, we are talking about thousands and thousands of years. Scottish people also claim Egyptian origin. some claim Sarmatian.

There are alot of double standards here. I'll just show you one of them;


"King of Epirus = King of Albania
As for Alexander the great, he has nothing to do with the Macedonian Slavs. Alexander's mother was originally from Epirus thus Alexander was Albanian.Dardanian, Macedonian, Epirotan = Albanian.
All Albanian kingdoms.
As for Albanians and Berbers.. How about Greeks and Berbers then? lol "

how about Albanians as greek? if its so easily interchangeble?

If you're going make claims like this you better have reasoning, because there is nothing to say epirus was albanian. There is nothing to say macedon was albanian, there is overwhilming evidence they were both greek. You're evidence is based on hats? what evidence is there of this?

The history of albanians is very foggy and uncertain because there is very little written, but don't do a FYROM and just distort history, you would be no better than dejavu. History is a science like other fields of study, you do the reasearch then make conclusions based on the reasearch, you can make hypothesis but you have to change it based on the evidence. Don't make claims then try to forcefully make the evidence fit, which is what FYROM does, as they favor some pieces of information and throw out others.

DejaVu
07-02-11, 21:47
Elias2 - what haplogroup are you, have you done a test (sub-saharan)? If you dont know anything about history or genetics, get lost, we dont need clowns here.

Elias2
07-02-11, 21:53
If we don't need clowns why are you here? I study history at post-secondary, it seems I have more of a grasp on what it is about and how people came to understand it then you ever will.

DejaVu
07-02-11, 22:00
Haplogroup?

Elias2
07-02-11, 22:16
Greek ;) and you? bulgarian or serbian? either way you're a slav ;)

"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it." - Hitler

We know who Tito was reading about!

DejaVu
07-02-11, 22:23
Does matter alot because you have shown 0% interest in genetics and 100% in spamming fanatic propaganda. Yes it does matter if anyone read your posts and why you are here.

Elias2
07-02-11, 22:38
Considering greece has been a melting pot of different peopels for thousands of years, why does it matter again? Don't ridicule me on propaganda, I have shown none, on the other hand you continually spew out prapaganda to pursure your "macedonian" crusade of lies started by Tito. Your parents had an escuse for being grown up under communism, you have none. Ancient Macedons were greek, we have primary written evidence to say so. We have archeaological evidence to say so. You have nothing to say they were not. PERIOD.

P.S. let me educate you a bit. Written evidence and archeological evidence is what historians base their arguments on. Show me primary evidence to suggest Macedons were not hellenic. I don't think you can. (post in the other thread about macedonians, but I don't think you will be able to find anything to post)

iapetoc
07-02-11, 22:42
Elias2 - what haplogroup are you, have you done a test (sub-saharan)? If you dont know anything about history or genetics, get lost, we dont need clowns here.

DejaVu?

for you Greeks are sub-saharan are the Albanians also Sub-Saharan?
what do mean by that sub-saharan, what are you trying to prove?



now about about Albania and Epirus or Makedonia,
Albanien
maybe is different, think of that,
Albanian language is satem like Serbian,
Epirus and Makedonia is centum
the split of E was done in far anciety,

by spreading ..... like DejaVu does
you prove nothing
now about Arbanitet
Ask them what they are
as also the Souliotet who left Bulgaria (mandritsa) and live all in Greece
and i have found many to discuss
also Moschopolis Voskopoje in Albanian

probably you have never meet any of them,
or your Nationalism blinds you

probably as Dejavu ancestors were In Fyrom communist party
your ancestors were with Baraba pasa or Emver Hotza

or you read only Xtra nationalistic Books

calm down and be fake like your Neighbor Fyrom

Genetics proves that a part of Ancient Greeks and a part of Ancient south west Illyrian are same,

read History to find out why and how,
and read history to find who were Epirotans and Makedonians,
and how many Illyrians were in Alexander court, as also how many Thracians etc.

Makedonians were centum not satem, as also Epirotans

iapetoc
07-02-11, 22:45
DejaVU

If I have sub-saharan mtDNA,
then what ?

DejaVu
07-02-11, 23:09
DejaVU

If I have sub-saharan mtDNA,
then what ?

Nothing, you continue to be what you feel like. You decide that and nobody else.

DejaVu
07-02-11, 23:16
DejaVu?

for you Greeks are sub-saharan are the Albanians also Sub-Saharan?
what do mean by that sub-saharan, what are you trying to prove?



now about about Albania and Epirus or Makedonia,
Albanien
maybe is different, think of that,
Albanian language is satem like Serbian,
Epirus and Makedonia is centum
the split of E was done in far anciety,

by spreading ..... like DejaVu does
you prove nothing
now about Arbanitet
Ask them what they are
as also the Souliotet who left Bulgaria (mandritsa) and live all in Greece
and i have found many to discuss
also Moschopolis Voskopoje in Albanian

probably you have never meet any of them,
or your Nationalism blinds you

probably as Dejavu ancestors were In Fyrom communist party
your ancestors were with Baraba pasa or Emver Hotza

or you read only Xtra nationalistic Books

calm down and be fake like your Neighbor Fyrom

Genetics proves that a part of Ancient Greeks and a part of Ancient south west Illyrian are same,

read History to find out why and how,
and read history to find who were Epirotans and Makedonians,
and how many Illyrians were in Alexander court, as also how many Thracians etc.

Makedonians were centum not satem, as also Epirotans

The dorian invasion does not prove anything because evidence are not found by anyone and can be a fairytale only. Many evidence facts are missing in antiquity so we can only assume not proof everything.
But ofcourse it must be mentioned anyway and maybe some facts will show up by research, escavations and DNA.
The search for unknown continues forever.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian_invasion
The Dorian invasion is a concept devised by historians of Ancient Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greece) to explain the replacement of pre-classical dialects and traditions in southern Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) by the ones that prevailed in Classical Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Classical_Greece).
Classical scholars saw in the legend a hypothetically real event they termed the Dorian invasion. The meaning of the concept has changed several times, as historians, philologists (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Philologist) and archaeologists (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Archaeologist) used it in attempts to explain the cultural discontinuities expressed in the data of their fields.
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.
Dorian invasion is not Temenus returns, maybe it is the new invented version for greeks. iapetoc, continue to be in your fantasy dream.

iapetoc
07-02-11, 23:55
DejaVu you are still in another world
Dorian Invasion is also Temenus return
it was not an invasion from north,
but from Thessaly to Peloponese
same time the Argeiad Makedonian invesion was done from Thessaly to Pieria-Ematheia
and same time Lokroi Makedonians invade West Makedonia (Brygia) also From Thessaly

DejaVu
08-02-11, 00:53
DejaVu you are still in another world
Dorian Invasion is also Temenus return
it was not an invasion from north,
but from Thessaly to Peloponese
same time the Argeiad Makedonian invesion was done from Thessaly to Pieria-Ematheia
and same time Lokroi Makedonians invade West Makedonia (Brygia) also From Thessaly

Who is in another world? Time to open your fanatic view or you cant handle it? Fairytales is ok for you but not for me.

The Dorian invasion is a concept devised by historians of Ancient Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greece) to explain the replacement of pre-classical dialects and traditions in southern Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) by the ones that prevailed in Classical Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Classical_Greece). The latter were named Dorian by the ancient Greek writers after the historical population that owned them, the Dorians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dorians).
Greek legend asserted that the Dorians took possession of the Peloponnesus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Peloponnesus) in an event called the Return of the Heracleidae. Classical scholars saw in the legend a hypothetically real event they termed the Dorian invasion. The meaning of the concept has changed several times, as historians, philologists (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Philologist) and archaeologists (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Archaeologist) used it in attempts to explain the cultural discontinuities expressed in the data of their fields. The pattern of arrival of Dorian culture on certain islands in the Mediterranean (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mediterranean), such as Crete (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Crete), is also not well elucidated. The Dorians colonised a number of sites on Crete such as Lato (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lato).
Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.

DejaVu
08-02-11, 00:54
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians
The Dorians (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Δωριεῖς, Dōrieis, singular Δωριεύς, Dōrieus) were one of the four major tribes into which the Ancient Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greece) of the Classical period divided themselves.
The Dorians are almost always simply referenced as just "the Dorians", as they are in the earliest literary mention of them in Odyssey (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Odyssey), where they already can be found inhabiting the island of Crete (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Crete). Herodotus does use the word ethnos with regard to them, from which the English (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/English_language) word ethnic derives, which appears in the modern concept of ethnic group (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ethnic_group). It has to be clarified though, that in the ancient Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek) language ethnos by no means can be translated as 'nation' alone, but rather as 'tribe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tribe)', 'race (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Race_(classification_of_human_beings))' or 'people (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/People)'. The Dorians are clearly among the peoples regarded as Hellenes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks). They were diverse in way of life and social organization, varying from the populous trade center of the city of Corinth (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Corinth), known for its ornate style in art and architecture, to the isolationist, military state of Lacedaemon or Sparta (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sparta). However, peoples belonging to the same tribe, the Dorians, as well as the Aeolians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aeolians) and the Ionians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ionians), were further subdivided in independent groups often hostile to each other, usually named after the location of their state.

Garrick
08-02-11, 01:40
Todays FYROM was originally inhabited by Ancient Albanians until the Slavic invasion. and Albanians were driven away from their land. But you still have Albanians living in Macedonia.



Albanien
What you spam the topic (and not only you) no matter, so you contribute its popularity.

I nice asked all of you to write about Macedonia in appropriate topic because there are other topics about Macedonia on which you and everyone can contribute.

But here you showing that you are not familiar enough with the world of haplogroups.

There was no invasion of the Slavs, nor R1a is is something special expressed in the Balkans.

Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:


"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

Source:

http://www.worldacademy.org/files/DNA_Genealogy_Part_2.pdf (http://www.worldacademy.org/files/DNA_Genealogy_Part_2.pdf)


Only if you do not mean an invasion of the Slavs occurred 12,000 years ago.

Now see the results R1a haplogroup:

Albania, 9,8% (Semino et al)
Albanians in Macedonia, 12,6% (Noveski et al)
Serbia, 14,5% (Mirabal et al)
Macedonians, 15,2% (Pericic et al), 14,2% (Noveski et al)
Greece, 8,3% (Semino et al, Helgason et al)


That old R1a population is fairly evenly distributed, not much more of the Serbs and Slav Macedonians compared to Albanians.

When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense.

South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.


Only you can prove your "Slavic invasion" if you have some other Y-DNA sources where you can surpass Klyosov and existing Y-DNA findings.

Garrick
09-02-11, 01:13
But still, even if Albanians have Berber origin, we are talking about thousands and thousands of years

Albanien
If we start to put pictures, this topic can be turned into a photo album about Albanians and Berbers.


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v696/Gzim/BajraktarteDukagjinit-TheChiefsfrom.jpg
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4094/4736387667_d7e172deeb.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/52/126269983_11b9630975.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/60/162300913_59403b88c9.jpg
http://cache2.asset-cache.net/xc/75874429.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF87892102A727B1636DE2E6A0D9DB5C7DEDC916 195FC3A17A1866D42FE1D30D6DBAB674
http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRQHGPEyzmG9DDWAlpmNKUnfAihAdBwB HIFdA7QONRqq0U0D_mT-A&t=1
http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5005/5374179886_7ecd51c2d0.jpg

iapetoc
10-02-11, 02:06
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenus


In Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology), Temenus (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Τήμενος, Tēmenos) was a son of Aristomachus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristomachus) and brother of Cresphontes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cresphontes) and Aristodemus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristodemus). He was a great-great-grandson of Heracles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles) and helped lead the fifth and final attack on Mycenae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenae) in the Peloponnese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnese). He became King of Argos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argos). He was the father of Ceisus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceisus), Káranos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caranus_%28king%29), Phalces, Agraeus, and Hyrnetho. Káranos was the first king of Macedonia and founder of the royal Macedonian dynasty, the Temenids (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenids) or Argeads (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead), which culminated in the sons of Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great) five centuries later.


This conquest of Peloponnesus by the Dorians, commonly called the "Return of the Heraclids (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Herakleidae&action=edit&redlink=1)", is represented as the recovery by the descendants of Heracles of the rightful inheritance of their hero ancestor and his sons. The Dorians followed the custom of other Greek tribes in claiming as ancestor for their ruling families one of the legendary heroes, but the traditions must not on that account be regarded as entirely mythical.


dejavu the Makedonians came from Thessaly to west makedonia and the Argeiads from the city of Heracleia and Dion to central Makedonia

the Argeiads were Dorians but the Makedonians were Aeolians


That is why Alexander when kick as.. of sparta did not burn the city

The dorians did not come out of Greece
it was an inner movement to claim thrones - change kings
that is why the messinians who ruled sparta became farmers, and the Arcadians who were relatives became free but not Spartans

The dorians did not invade Greece, the dorians where ever they went they were accepted
and mainly move to specific places that were known before only the messinians did not accept them cause

Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.

as you see Dejavu Hercules travel to cities like -issa, in Thessaly
he is lost somewhere in the land of lapiths brothers of magnets
lapiths and centars loved horses as Makedonians did
that is why Dorians did brought IE language,

But probably knew IE
the Homerick Language
The language used by Homer is an archaic version of Ionic Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_Greek), with admixtures from certain other dialects, such as Aeolic Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic_Greek). It later served as the basis of Epic Greek, the language of epic poetry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry), typically in dactylic hexameter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactylic_hexameter).

land that today speak dorian is in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language


Garrick you are right I m not going to write any more here about that

Regulus
10-02-11, 16:05
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenus




dejavu the Makedonians came from Thessaly to west makedonia and the Argeiads from the city of Heracleia and Dion to central Makedonia

the Argeiads were Dorians but the Makedonians were Aeolians


That is why Alexander when kick as.. of sparta did not burn the city

The dorians did not come out of Greece
it was an inner movement to claim thrones - change kings
that is why the messinians who ruled sparta became farmers, and the Arcadians who were relatives became free but not Spartans

The dorians did not invade Greece, the dorians where ever they went they were accepted
and mainly move to specific places that were known before only the messinians did not accept them cause

Despite nearly 200 years of investigation the historicity of the Dorian invasion has never been established. The meaning of the concept has become to some degree amorphous. The work done on it has mainly served to rule out various speculations. The possibility of a real Dorian invasion remains open.

as you see Dejavu Hercules travel to cities like -issa, in Thessaly
he is lost somewhere in the land of lapiths brothers of magnets
lapiths and centars loved horses as Makedonians did
that is why Dorians did brought IE language,

But probably knew IE
the Homerick Language
The language used by Homer is an archaic version of Ionic Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionic_Greek), with admixtures from certain other dialects, such as Aeolic Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic_Greek). It later served as the basis of Epic Greek, the language of epic poetry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epic_poetry), typically in dactylic hexameter (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dactylic_hexameter).

land that today speak dorian is in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language






This well described. The only thing that I would recomment to Iapetoc is to stop defending your position. You have done that enough.
The emphasis now should be on sorting the facts and specifically the dates of the southward migrations of the Slavic peoples. Once a clear picture of that is laid out, the position that ancient Macedonians were Slavic or had a major Slavic component becomes untenable by default. In others words, once it is established that Slavic tribes did not live in or near that location until roughly a thousand years later, there really is no longer any room to argue the point.

I had wanted to start a thread specifically about the regional origins of those we could clearly identify as Slavic or proto-Slavic peoples. I keep getting tied up with ongoing projects at work and am very busy in the evenings helping my High School 9th grade son with home work and assisting of physical exercises. In addition to that, I am Vice President of our local youth baseball league and am struggling to get enough local businesses to help this year with sponsorships of our program for this spring season. Perhaps now is the time to start the thread on that topic. If you can get together enough basic information to start the thread, I would be happy to add to it with posts when I can.
I just can’t find the time to do it myself now.

Garrick
10-02-11, 19:00
This well described. The only thing that I would recomment to Iapetoc is to stop defending your position. You have done that enough.
The emphasis now should be on sorting the facts and specifically the dates of the southward migrations of the Slavic peoples. Once a clear picture of that is laid out, the position that ancient Macedonians were Slavic or had a major Slavic component becomes untenable by default. In others words, once it is established that Slavic tribes did not live in or near that location until roughly a thousand years later, there really is no longer any room to argue the point.

I had wanted to start a thread specifically about the regional origins of those we could clearly identify as Slavic or proto-Slavic peoples. I keep getting tied up with ongoing projects at work and am very busy in the evenings helping my High School 9th grade son with home work and assisting of physical exercises. In addition to that, I am Vice President of our local youth baseball league and am struggling to get enough local businesses to help this year with sponsorships of our program for this spring season. Perhaps now is the time to start the thread on that topic. If you can get together enough basic information to start the thread, I would be happy to add to it with posts when I can.
I just can’t find the time to do it myself now.


Regulus
I totally agree with you that today's Slav Macedonians are not ancient Macedonians.

In the dispute between Greece and FYROM Macedonia there is no doubt that the Greeks are right.

...
But now I want something else to say.

Read the post 365133 carefully (3 posts above).

Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:

"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

Slavic Y-DNA in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.

When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.

If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.

Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally are not R1a but I people.

Once the Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the ancient I language.

When I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known.

It is clear that the I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans, but we still does not know exactly who they were. It is assumed for example that I bearers were Vincians people. However, only the research of DNA to be precisely determined. Certainly a few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write.

...
Today Slav Macedonians mistakenly try to present themselves to the ancient Macedonians, it is likely to issue a Doric tribe Makednoi that founded Macedonia.

Ancient Macedonia was not occupied the border of today's FYROM Macedonia.

Northwest of the then boundaries of the ancient Macedonia lived Illyrians.

But northeast of then borders of the ancient Macedonia lived Paeones.

There is a likelihood that the Paeones were one of the I tribes that lived in the Balkans, if it proves today Slav Macedonians are descedents I tribes in the Balkans and beyond, also from I tribes in the Balkans and beyond originate and today the Serbs and Bosnians.

...
And I ask all participants to this forum to everything related to Macedonia write on the topic of the Macedonians, as here is another topic.

Regulus
10-02-11, 20:17
Garrick, thank you. I am able to see this agrument much more clearly. As you requested, I will continue my reply on the correct thread. What you write makes sense to me.

Neander
19-02-11, 02:56
I think stupid thread, even I wonder how such a learned man like Maciamo, can be afected by such stupid threads.

If it continue, then Eupedia, will become a stupid page like Stormfront (50% of stormfront is used to talk against Albanians).

how yes no 2
19-02-11, 15:46
I think stupid thread, even I wonder how such a learned man like Maciamo, can be afected by such stupid threads.

If it continue, then Eupedia, will become a stupid page like Stormfront (50% of stormfront is used to talk against Albanians).

I agree that thread is somewhat pointless...

while it is interesting to investigate linguistic connections with spread of haplogroups, that cannot be done properly by chosing two languages in isolation from other languages... to have any meaningful conclusion, words should be compared in many languages at same time...

Garrick
19-02-11, 16:11
I agree that thread is somewhat pointless...

while it is interesting to investigate linguistic connections with spread of haplogroups, that cannot be done properly by chosing two languages in isolation from other languages... to have any meaningful conclusion, words should be compared in many languages at same time...

How yes no,
I disagree because this is the right research topic and contributors are active, the topic used to we enter in the very interesting research which is reflected in the attendance the topic and very interesting and valuable articles.

how yes no 2
19-02-11, 16:20
How yes no,
but it is clearly that the title of this topic used to we enter in the very interesting research which is reflected in the attendance the topic and very interesting and valuable articles.

I have opened new thread for linguistics/genetics ties
see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365795#post365795
it is impossible to conclude much by only taking words that are in common in two languages and disregarding other languages... comparison of words should be done in many languages as I did for word "tower" in new thread... only than you can do grouping


otherwise, the topics discussed here are often better fitted to "Who were and are Albanians and their DNA" thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26201

Garrick
19-02-11, 16:35
I have opened new thread for linguistics/genetics ties
see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365795#post365795
it is impossible to conclude much by only taking words that are in common in two languages and disregarding other languages... comparison of words should be done in many languages as I did for word "tower" in new thread... only than you can do grouping


otherwise, the topics discussed here are often better fitted to "Who were and are Albanians and their DNA" thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26201

I don't agree, again.
Just this topic prompted the right research, a lot has learned and it has great value.

But ok, there is no subject about people can argue a bit and somewhat is a matter of taste.

Garrick
19-02-11, 16:52
I think stupid thread, even I wonder how such a learned man like Maciamo, can be afected by such stupid threads.



Ok. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

But just you can read forums and blogs by African and Asian countries where these and similar issues discussed widely.

Also there are published books. One of the books that came out in 2010 is:

Kush Khamit Raamah

Faces of the Hamitic people

In this book, between other things, author connect the Geg, Arvaniti and Chamuri Albanians as Hamites.


Author points out that the Albanian name Cham derived from the Ham.

The book was published in the edition Xilibris Corporation, USA.

The cover:

http://img1.fkcdn.com/img/514/9781453500514.jpg

Neander
19-02-11, 18:03
Ok. Everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Dude, we are talking about history, and history doesnt allow opinions.

History seeks facts and no opinions.

The opinions are like the shit, everyone has one shit, and everyone has one opinion.

But History is wroten by facts.

The thread is stupid, because the Ev13 is not Em78, they are distinct hplogroups, which evolved in the early prehistoric times, and no such old language can survive for such a long time.

You are motivated by nacionalistic chauvinistic ideas against albanians. We know that there is war between albanians and slavs, but we need to stop this.

Garrick
20-02-11, 04:13
Dude, we are talking about history, and history doesnt allow opinions.


History seeks facts and no opinions.

The opinions are like the shit, everyone has one shit, and everyone has one opinion.

But History is wroten by facts.

The thread is stupid, because the Ev13 is not Em78, they are distinct hplogroups, which evolved in the early prehistoric times, and no such old language can survive for such a long time.

You are motivated by nacionalistic chauvinistic ideas against albanians. We know that there is war between albanians and slavs, but we need to stop this.

You want facts, you didn’t read previous pages, ok here are some facts:


Fulvio Cruciani, Roberta La Fratta, Beniamino Trombetta, Piero Santolamazza, Daniele Sellitto,Eliane Beraud Colomb,Jean-Michel Dugoujon, Federica Crivellaro, Tamara Benincasa,Roberto Pascone, Pedro Moral, Elizabeth Watson, Bela Melegh,Guido Barbujani,Silvia Fuselli,Giuseppe Vona, Boris Zagradisnik,Guenter Assum, Radim Brdicka, Andrey I. Kozlov, Georgi D. Efremov,Alfredo Coppa,Andrea Novelletto, and Rosaria Scozzari


Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and
Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12

http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/MolecularBiologyandEvolution-07-24-6-1300.pdf (http://dirkschweitzer.net/E3b-papers/MolecularBiologyandEvolution-07-24-6-1300.pdf)
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html)

2007

Oxford University Press

“By analyzing a worldwide sample of 6,501 male subjects, wehave identified 517 chromosomes belonging to haplogroup E-M78, more than twice the number found in a previous study (Cruciani et al. 2004). These chromosomes have been further analyzed for the biallelic markers M148 (Underhill et al. 2000), M224 (Underhill et al. 2001), V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32 (Cruciani et al. 2006), V36, and V65 (present study).... Four subhaplogroups were either rare(1 and 2 subjects for E-V27 and E-V19, respectively) or absent(E-M148andE-M224)in the global sample, whereas theother haplogroups/paragroups were relatively common (table1 and fig. 2).”

You can see that subhaplogroups of E-M78 are (excluding those that are very rare):

E-V12
E-V32
E-V13
E-78*
E-V65 and
E-V22.



“In conclusion, the peripheral geographic distribution of the most derived subhaplogroups with respect to northeastern Africa, as well as the results of quantitative analysis of UEP and microsatellite diversity are strongly suggestive of a northeastern rather than an eastern African origin of E-M78. Northeastern Africa thus seems to be the place from where E-M78 chromosomes started to disperse to other African regions and outside Africa.”

You can see that Northeastern Africa is probably place of origin E-78.


“The TMRCA of the European E-V13 chromosomes turns out to be 4.0–4.7 ky (under 2 different demographic expansion scenarios, see Subjects and Methods; 95% CI 3.5–4.6 ky and 4.1–5.3 ky, respectively).”

You can see Cruciani et al, 2007 as a possible arrival time E carriers in the Balkans state between 4000 and 4700 year ago (between 2000 and 2700 BC).




You can see:
E-V13 is subclade of haplogroup E-M78,
estimated time of origin is about 11.5 thousand years (ASD method) or about 8.7 thousand years (ρ method),
origin is Northwestern Africa,
E-V13 in the Balkans is between 2000 and 2700 BC.



Marijana Peričić,Lovorka Barać Lauc,Irena Martinović Klarić,Siiri Rootsi,
Branka Janićijević,Igor Rudan,Rifet Terzić,Ivanka Čolak,Ante Kvesić,Dan Popović, Ana Šijački,Ibrahim Behluli,Dobrivoje Ðorđević,Ljudmila Efremovska,Ðorđe D. Bajec,Branislav D. Stefanović,Richard Villems,and Pavao Rudan



High-Resolution Phylogenetic Analysis of Southeastern Europe Traces Major Episodes of Paternal Gene Flow Among Slavic Populations

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html)

2005

You can see the data of E haplogroup for Kosovar Albanians:

E-M78* 1.75%
E-V13 43.85%
E-M81 0.90%
E-M123 0.90%

Total E 47.20%

You can see that Kosovar Albanians, except E-V13 have E-M78 haplogroup observed in Egypt, E-M81 known as Berber marker and another E subclade E-M123.

Battaglia et al (European Journal of Human genetics, 2009)

"The presence of E-M78 * Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians), previously described only in virtually northeast Africa, upper Nile, 28, 63 gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been."



Gianmarco Ferri, Sergio Tofanelli, Milena Alù, Luca Taglioli, Erjon Radheshi, Beatrice Corradini, Giorgio Paoli, Cristian Capelli and Giovanni Beduschi

Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent

www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/)

Springer

2010

This study revealed significant differences between Gheg and Tosk population in Albania.

Ghegs have 41.82% E haplogroup (E-V13 41.21%).

Tosks have 28.10% E haplogroup but you can see differences and among other haplogroups.

Research has shown that the Ghegs are closest Egyptians of all the European populations on the other hand Toscs are closer Balkan populations.


Very closely are placed Bosniaks, Serbs and Romanians, which is logical if one bears in mind that by Mirabal et al 2010 in Serbia I haplogroup is 48% and according Pericic et al 2005 in Bosnia I haplogroup is 53.65% (in Herzegovina the result for I is even more).


I suppose you know when I haplogroup appeared in the Balkans.

Kalevi Wiik

Where Did European Men Come From?

Journal of Genetic Genaology, 2008

“(7) About 25 kya the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sentanother branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans,and a new sub-Clan I emerged.”

You can see the ancestors of today's I carrier in the Balkans, Bosnians, Serbs and others, were in the Balkans even before 25,000 years.


Do you think that the Bosnians, Serbs and other people that are considered truly South Slavic and where I haplogroup is dominant are realy Slavs?

They speak Slavic language but they are not Slavs.

You can see Slavic haplogroup R1a in Serbia is 14.5% (Mirabal et al, 2010).

And you can see R1a among Albanians, for example in Macedonia FYROM is 12.6% (Noveski et al, 2010).

Are you think that Bosniaks and Serbs really Slavs, Serbs have 14.5% R1a haplogroup and for 1.9% more than Albanians in Macedonia FYROM?

What do you think when R1a came to the Balkans?

Thousands of years before E carriers if you read Klyosov:

“An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11,650±1,550 years bp.”


You can compare with the estimate Cruciani et al when E came to the Balkans.



Now that you've all heard, what you think you got the right so bad to say about all the contributors on this topic who are worth collecting data, using appropriate sources and by setting up posts.

You call people chauvinists and the like, but they are serious researchers and you see that they are different nations.

Nobody have right to do, if something does not know you should learn, if you have other sources put it, we can discuss, argue, all we can, but no one can insult and label, only the communists did it but the communists did not have long; fortunately.

Antigone
20-02-11, 08:24
But History is wroten by facts..

It seems to me that written history is only the interpretation of events by the author, it is not necessarily the facts. Anyone can write anything, it doesn't always make it true and as history is usually written by the victor (who is writing with an agenda) it can render historical accounts very suspect. History is therefore subject to opinion.

True history should be impartial, without an agenda, not clouded by nationalistic claptrap and, unfortunately, is rare to find. But we all seek the historical fact or truth, isn't that why people have been debating and discussing history forever? It is also the reason why we enjoy it so much.

Neander
20-02-11, 15:52
What do you think when R1a came to the Balkans?R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

Neander
20-02-11, 15:52
I THOUGHT THAT BERBERS ARE OF EURASIAN ORIGIN???

Didnt you remember?

Garrick
20-02-11, 16:03
R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

Neander

I presented these excellent articles from leading scientific journals in the world.

You're not given anything just your abusive thoughts from your head and a faint attempt at propaganda without sources.

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 16:28
R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

hello, stop with propaganda...
Mongolia has dominant haplogroup C...
R1a origins from south Siberia but not from Mongolia... Mongolia is its neigbour and probably biggest enemy in ancient history...

we talk about R1a that is in Balkan for 11000 years
and E-V13 that is there for 4000 years...

it could be that R1a are Pelasgians, and E-V13 were Illyrians and later Dardanians....

but I am not sure about Illyrians.... they might have easily been J2, R1b or even I2a2 dominant... more research is needed there...

stop pushing idea that Albanians are indigenous and that thus Balkan belongs to them.... E-V13 is fairly recent arrival to Europe ....so, if we apply your nazi views that most recent arrivals should go away, the someone that should go away from Europe / Balkan is E-V13... keep that in mind!

my viewpoint is that all haplogroups are equally worth and people who carry them should have right to live where they live...but if you people keep pushing idea of Albanians having more right on land in Balkans, that will eventually get back to you as nasty boomerang... as E-V13, Dardanians and even Illyrians are very recent arrival to Europe....

Neander
20-02-11, 16:57
i presented these excellent articles from leading scientific journals in the world.i am sorry, there is no out of africa migration after mesolithic.


hello, stop with propaganda...
Mongolia has dominant haplogroup c...
R1a origins from south siberia but not from mongolia... Mongolia is its neigbour and probably biggest enemy in ancient history...
R1a is brother of R1b, toGether the sons of R1, it is son of R which in turn is birther of Q (amerindian-siberian haoplogroup).

N O P Q R are monogoloid haplogroups.

Neander
20-02-11, 16:59
I THOUGHT THAT BERBERS ARE OF EURASIAN ORIGIN???

Didnt you remember?

http://mathildasanthropologyblog.wordpress.com/2008/05/02/eurasian-origins-of-the-berbers/

Neander
20-02-11, 17:04
my viewpoint is that all haplogroups are equally worth and people who carry them should have right to live where they live...but if you people keep pushing idea of Albanians having more right on land in Balkans, that will eventually get back to you as nasty boomerang... as E-V13, Dardanians and even Illyrians are very recent arrival to Europe....
You are self-frightened, I didnt fright you. I am talking about history, and not about nazi,

DONT use this "nazi" as a counterargument.

You have not facts about what you said. There is no out of africa major migration after Mesolithic.

You made propaganda, to tell us that Albanians must go out of Europe, and then acusse me for "propaganda". Please look at yourself first. You are not discusing historyu but ridiculous propaganda.

Stupid thread.

Garrick
20-02-11, 21:12
R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.


R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,


even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.



i am sorry, there is no out of africa migration after mesolithic.


R1a is brother of R1b, toGether the sons of R1, it is son of R which in turn is birther of Q (amerindian-siberian haoplogroup).

N O P Q R are monogoloid haplogroups.

Neander
You can not talk like that, just showing your ignorance and frustration.

You say the work of Klyosov is bulshit!!!

Are you aware of where is a author’s level of knowledge but where is your, if you do know what it is science, scientist, methodology, research, journal, etc. maybe you know would not have spoken.

I say this in good faith, and scientists can read Eupedia, what can they think of these your words.


Klyosov is a very prominent American scientist.

If you have something to say against his work you would have to cite some other work that is opposed to his view.

But not a blog, or the like, it is worthless, only the scientific work and recognized scientific name.


So you can compare:


Kalevi Wiik, Finnish scientist

Where Did European Men Come From

2008

Journal of Genetic Genealogy


According him carriers of I haplogroup came to the Balkans 25,000 years ago.



Anatole Klyosov, American scientist

DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome

http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1/files/npre20082733-1.pdf (http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1/files/npre20082733-1.pdf)

2008

Nature Precendings,

According him carriers of R1a1 haplogroup exist in the Balkans since 11,600 years bp.


Cruciani Fulvio, Italian Scientist, et al

Tracing Past Human Male Movements in Northern/Eastern Africa and
Western Eurasia: New Clues from Y-Chromosomal Haplogroups E-M78 and J-M12

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html)

2007

Oxford University Press

According them carriers of E-V13 subhaplogroup of E-M78 haplogroup appeared inthe Balkans before 4000 to 4700 years.



For your words about R haplogroup you didn’t give scientific journal, are you sure that it is mongol haplogroup?


You can see:

Kalevi Wiik

Where Did European Men Come From

Cit.

“(a) Those who are Old Europeans in the sense that, at the start of the LGM, their paternal lineages already were in Europe and they came to the four refuges when they were forced out of northern Europe. They were first to repopulate Europe after the LGM and they formed the bulk of the present European male population.”

Cit.

“The frequency of the Old Europeans will be considered here as the sum of R1b + R1a + I + N”


Here you can learn two things:

R haplogroup is not Mongol but European.


E haplogroup does not belong Old Europeans, because E carriers came to Europe much later.

Neander
20-02-11, 23:07
Y-chromosomal evidence of the cultural diffusion of
agriculture in southeast Europe
Vincenza Battaglia1, Simona Fornarino1,12, Nadia Al-Zahery1, Anna Olivieri1, Maria Pala1,
Natalie M Myres2, Roy J King3, Siiri Rootsi4, Damir Marjanovic5,6, Dragan Primorac7,8,
Rifat Hadziselimovic5, Stojko Vidovic9, Katia Drobnic10, Naser Durmishi11, Antonio Torroni1,
A Silvana Santachiara-Benerecetti1, Peter A Underhill3 and Ornella Semino*,1
1Dipartimento di Genetica e Microbiologia, Universita` di Pavia, Pavia, Italy; 2Sorenson Molecular Genealogy
Foundation, Salt Lake City, UT, USA; 3Department of Psychiatry and Behavioral Sciences, School of Medicine, Stanford
University, Stanford, CA, USA; 4Department of Evolutionary Biology, University of Tartu and Estonian Biocentre, Tartu,
Estonia; 5Institute for Genetic Engineering and Biotechnology, University of Sarajevo, Sarajevo, Bosnia and
Herzegovina; 6Genos doo, Zagreb, Croatia; 7Medical School, Split University, Split, Croatia; 8Medical School, Osijek
University, Osijek, Croatia; 9Faculty of Medicine, University of Banja Luka, Banja Luka, Bosnia and Herzegovina;
10Forensic Laboratory and Research Center, Ministry of the Interior, Ljubljana, Slovenia; 11Medical School, University of
Tetovo, Tetovo, Former Yugoslavia Republic of Macedonia
The debate concerning the mechanisms underlying the prehistoric spread of farming to Southeast Europe is
framed around the opposing roles of population movement and cultural diffusion. To investigate the possible
involvement of local people during the transition of agriculture in the Balkans, we analysed patterns of
Y-chromosome diversity in 1206 subjects from 17 population samples, mainly from Southeast Europe. Evidence
from three Y-chromosome lineages, I-M423, E-V13 and J-M241, make it possible to distinguish between
Holocene Mesolithic forager and subsequent Neolithic range expansions from the eastern Sahara and the Near
East, respectively. In particular, whereas the Balkanmicrosatellite variation associated to J-M241 correlates with
the Neolithic period, those related to E-V13 and I-M423 Balkan Y chromosomes are consistent with a late
Mesolithic time frame. In addition, the low frequency and variance associated to I-M423 and E-V13 in Anatolia
and the Middle East, support an European Mesolithic origin of these two clades. Thus, these Balkan Mesolithic
foragers with their own autochthonous genetic signatures, were destined to become the earliest to adopt
farming, when it was subsequently introduced by a cadre ofmigrating farmers from the Near East. These initial
local converted farmers became the principal agents spreading this economy using maritime leapfrog
colonization strategies in the Adriatic and transmitting the Neolithic cultural package to other adjacent
Mesolithic populations. The ensuing range expansions of E-V13 and I-M423 parallel in space and time the
diffusion of Neolithic Impressed Ware, thereby supporting a case of cultural diffusion using genetic evidence.
European Journal of Human Genetics advance online publication, 24 December 2008; doi:10.1038/ejhg.2008.249
Keywords: Balkan Neolithic; farming transition; peopling of Europe; Y-chromosome haplogroups

Neander
20-02-11, 23:07
Only a citing from that article:

This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic
of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the
similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya,
Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately
9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from
Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28,
suggest an expansion time of approximately 10 000 years
ago.

Neander
20-02-11, 23:08
Stop saying bullshits, nazi propaganda opf serbians.

Neander
20-02-11, 23:15
Greeks Albanians, are the same genetic people: J2b and Ev13.

It is ridiculous to mention only albanians, with berbers,

And where are Greeks???

Garrick
21-02-11, 02:10
Neander
Renowned American scientist Klyosov and his work shows that R1a in the Balkans exist from before 11,600 years ago you call bullshit.


R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.

You give the work of Battaglia et al who refers to other but Cruciani et al tested and determined arrival time E-V13 in the Balkans: 2000 to 2700 years BC. But ok, it's always good to set a number of scientific papers and try to argue.

But you do not want debate, R and N haplogroups you call the Mongols
and R and N belong to the Old Europeans (you can see the work Kalevi Wiik which I gave).



i am sorry, there is no out of africa migration after mesolithic.

R1a is brother of R1b, toGether the sons of R1, it is son of R which in turn is birther of Q (amerindian-siberian haoplogroup).

N O P Q R are monogoloid haplogroups.

You call serious people who investigate on this topic insults that you have no right.

Here people are only researchers and for personal satisfaction to learn something new.

And the only one who is trying to implement a propaganda are you, but you can not do it because you have no arguments and no sources, and you insult people and spam topic, and it is not allowed.


All is this because you saw that the carriers of haplogroup E, the dominant among the Albanians, especially Gheg Albanians, the last arrived in the Balkans, much after I and R.

And now you're frustrated and all the scientists and people who participate in this forum are the ones to blame.

Why do not you follow Dian, he was at the level in this topic and with him it is possible to argue.

See this scientific work:

Gianmarco Ferri, Sergio Tofanelli, Milena Alù, Luca Taglioli, Erjon Radheshi, Beatrice Corradini, Giorgio Paoli, Cristian Capelli and Giovanni Beduschi

Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming an Egyptian descent

www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/)

Springer

2010

You will see that all the people who live in Europe today, according to these authors, Gheg Albanians are the closest to the Egyptians.

And you can see that one of member in this topic:


SHQIPTAR = ISH + GIPT + AR means I AM EGYPTIAN g as wh in what if g as k the coptic


cause in byzantine egyptians even today they are called GYPT-IAN and the COPTIC KOPT-ES = COPT-ES

then THAT APPROACH FITS TO YOU,

MEANING THAT SHQIPTAR MEANS EGYPTIAN.


Of course participants can argue on this and any other interesting for topic.

But who wants to participate and discuss he should do without the insults and spam and should uses arguments, knowledge and resources.

Neander
21-02-11, 02:16
Klyosov

Klyosov is Russian (Slavic)
R1a1 is Slavic
Their desire is slavic propaganda.


But who wants to participate and discuss he should do without the insults and spam and should uses arguments, knowledge and resources. The slavic propaganda, of all illiterate people of your nation, I dont wanna discuss yourn propganda, which smelt like shit.

Go to Stormfront.org with your shit propaganda, and we even dont want to dicuss your bullshits.

And no, I am not frustrated, I just wanted to tell you, not selling lies to people who dont know much about history.

I am participating here without insulting anybody.

Here is the troth if you want to learn that Ev13 was here, and Albanians have not any relation to Egypt. Ev13 was here since Mesolithic.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

And here is the origin of your "proto-serbs"

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

Neander
21-02-11, 02:21
Again I cite you this from the Scientific work:

This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic
of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the
similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya,
Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately
9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from
Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28,
suggest an expansion time of approximately 10 000 years
ago.

Neander
21-02-11, 02:23
R1a is of Mongolian origin, because all they N O P Q R are kindred to eachother.

R1a and R1b became white people after they intermarried with local women in Europe.

Neander
21-02-11, 02:33
cause in byzantine egyptians even today they are called GYPT-IAN and the COPTIC KOPT-ES = COPT-ES

then THAT APPROACH FITS TO YOU,

MEANING THAT SHQIPTAR MEANS EGYPTIAN.
Wrong, Shqipetar, comes from Shqipe which in albanian means Eagle. Even there is e theory that Shqipetar comes from Shqip which means clearly, that is "I speak clearly" = Flas shqip, even "I speak albanian" = again "flas shqip".

Even shqiptar is related to skepter, Scepter.

ANother word for eagle is Skyfter etc.

It has not any relation to Egypt.

Now after we discus about name of Albanians, we now discus about name of the greeks: Greek comes from gayreek.

Garrick
21-02-11, 04:10
R1a is of Mongolian origin, because all they N O P Q R are kindred to eachother.

R1a and R1b became white people after they intermarried with local women in Europe.

Neander
I really think you're wrong, you have no source or evidence for your claim.

But I opened a new thread what the participants of forum think about it.

Old Europeans are R1b, R1a, I and N (Kalevi Wiik)

Garrick
21-02-11, 04:30
Klyosov is Russian (Slavic)
R1a1 is Slavic
Their desire is slavic propaganda.

The slavic propaganda, of all illiterate people of your nation, I dont wanna discuss yourn propganda, which smelt like shit.

Go to Stormfront.org with your shit propaganda, and we even dont want to dicuss your bullshits.

And no, I am not frustrated, I just wanted to tell you, not selling lies to people who dont know much about history.

I am participating here without insulting anybody.

Here is the troth if you want to learn that Ev13 was here, and Albanians have not any relation to Egypt. Ev13 was here since Mesolithic.

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

And here is the origin of your "proto-serbs"

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

Kalevi Wiik is Finnish, Klosyov is American, Cruciani is Italian, Ferri is Italian etc.

And I and R have long come to the Balkans before the E.

You can see:

Kalevi Wiik

Cit.

(7) About 25 kya the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sent another branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans, and a new sub-Clan I emerged.

25kya = 25000 years

And you can see Kalevi Wiik R1b, R1a, I and N called "Old Europeans".


E from Africa arrived in the Middle East and in Asia Minor, to the Balkans.

And Cruciani et all give rigorous testing that it was 2000 to 2700 year BC.

It is 22,000 years after I and 9,000 years after the R.

Battaglia et al speak about the time of expansion but they do not work the rigorous tests that were done Cruciani et al.

And you see Kalevi Wiik don't call E carriers Old Europeans.

So E carriers are not Old Europeans, if you're trying to say contrary you are not able because you have no arguments.

E carriers are the last arrived in the Balkans, long after I and R, and it is a scientific fact.

There is no source that says that the E carriers are Old Europeans.

Neander
21-02-11, 21:41
Hey People, I dont know why do you make it, like you have found America for the first time, as C. Colombo.

All we know, that Albanians are E, and Berbers are E, and Egyptians are E.

But I have some problems with you all. Just read here about these problems:

1. Did you ever read, at least a single book about albanian culture, history or language?

2. Do you know that Ev13 is not Em78?? These are different haplogroups.

3. How can you change the whole history with just one "scientific work" by Klyosov?

4. Did you ever read a single book about illyrians (I mean a book which has whole informations)?

5. How can we compare linguistic to genetics, when all Haplogrouops of the world come from "Adam"??

6. (this is not question), I think before you seek from me to respect your thread, please go read some books about albanians and Illyrians. There is a plenty of works about illyrian or albanian people, and one "scientific work" of Klyosov, even if there are 2 3 ore even 10 "scientific works" cannot change history so lightly as you think. If you are intellectuall, please respect yourself, dont waste your time with bullshit. The time is golden.

I responded to iapetoc, for the name "Shqipetar". I bet, nobody of you knows all theories, of how came ethnonimk "shqipetar". Even some of you hear this name for the first time. Sorry Garrick, but I dont know who are you, therefore you cannot say that you are intellectuall, even I dont care if you say that. When you dont know nothing about a nation, it is better, dont open such stupid thread.

Neander
21-02-11, 21:47
And you see Kalevi Wiik don't call E carriers Old Europeans.

Kalewi says clearly, that Neolithic (E and J) are true indoeuropians, who then IE-ize others.


So E carriers are not Old Europeans, if you're trying to say contrary you are not able because you have no arguments.But I still insist, because I have fact, I bring you scientific work:

This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic
of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the
similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya,
Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately
9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from
Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28,
suggest an expansion time of approximately 10 000 years
ago.

how yes no 2
21-02-11, 22:52
Hey People, I dont know why do you make it, like you have found America for the first time, as C. Colombo.

All we know, that Albanians are E, and Berbers are E, and Egyptians are E.

no, some Albainas are E, some Egyptians are E, some Berbers are E...
E is more dominant in those people than in some other, but is also present in many other areas as far as UK...



2. Do you know that Ev13 is not Em78?? These are different haplogroups.

yes, but have shared more recent origin than with non-E haplogroups...
this is not about African and non-African people, as there is R1b in Africa and they are black people..
it's not attempt to say African people are lower worth (as they are not), and to claim E is from Africa, thus E is lower worth...
all haplogroups are from Africa... and all are equally worth...


3. How can you change the whole history with just one "scientific work" by Klyosov?

it is scientific work..
it doesnot change history...
it is known that Illyrians came to Balkan from somewhere...
and Greek mythology suggests it was from Asia minor...


5. How can we compare linguistic to genetics, when all Haplogrouops of the world come from "Adam"??
idea is that haplogroups are like roots with branches spreading over surface of Earth and intermingling with branches of other haplogroups.... languages are developed along those movements... so theoretically it should be possible to find words common for root haplogroups...
"adam" is root of all those trees...


I responded to iapetoc, for the name "Shqipetar". I bet, nobody of you knows all theories, of how came ethnonimk "shqipetar". Even some of you hear this name for the first time. Sorry Garrick, but I dont know who are you, therefore you cannot say that you are intellectuall, even I dont care if you say that. When you dont know nothing about a nation, it is better, dont open such stupid thread.
origins of tribal names are difficult to figure out, but interesting topic...
same tribal name can be related to many words...
as tribe has name but it has some cultural characteristics, and than neighbouring people can use the word of tribe for something that looks to them as characteristic for that tribe

self-identication "Shqipetar" may be related to Illyrian tribe of Scirtari

tribal name Tosks (J2, I2, R1a and E) to Illyrian tribe Uscan and may share common root with tribal name Etruscan/Tuscan (R1a and J2 and perhaps E)

and Geghs (dominant E) may origin from Dardanians who came to Balkan much later than Illyrians, and came from Troad and Lydia in Asia minor, so their tribal name may be related to person name Gyges who was legendary king of Lydians who was shepard and became king by finding dead previous king and taking his magic ring.. story of Gyges could be about E people taking over control of Lydia as Gyges was attacked by Cimmerians (I haplogroup) and asked help from Egypt (E people),, magic ring might be about some strategical area..

but these are all just my guesses based on location, history & haplogroups...

Garrick
22-02-11, 01:39
Neander
There are people who think that the earth is plate.
And when someone says that the earth is round they will resent it and still claim that the earth is plate.

There are eminent scientists in the world who are at a much higher level of knowledge.

This is the biography of Dr. Anatole Klyosov
KLYOSOV, Anatole Alex, chemist, biochemist, researcher; MS, Moscow State University, 1969, PhD, 1972, DSc, 1977. Scientist, Moscow State University, 1969-72, assistant professor 1972-75, senior scientist 1975-79, Professor, 1978-81; Professor, Head Carbohydrate Research Laboratory, USSR Academy of Sciences, Moscow, 1981-92; Professor of Biochemistry, Harvard Medical School, Boston, 1990-1998; Vice President, Research and Development Kadant Composites (former Thermo Fibergen), 1996-2005; Consulting Vice President, LDI Composites Co. (former Kadant Composites), 2005-2006; Chief Scientist, Pro-Pharmaceuticals (2000--); Visiting Lecturer Biochemistry, Harvard University, 1974-75; advisory board Council on Biotechnology, Academy of Sciences of USSR, 1981-90; chairman of commission on cellulose bioconversion, 1982-90; expert panel Biofocus Foundation, Stockholm-Washington, since 1991. Author: The Practical Course of Chemical and Enzyme Kinetics, 1976; Enzyme Catalysis, 1980; Enzymatic Degradation of Polymers, 1984; Enzyme Engineering at the Industrial Level, 1989; Wood-Plastic Composites (2007, John Wiley & Sons), and its translations to Chinese (May, 2010) and Russian (September, 2010); The Internet (Notes of a Scientist), 2010; The Origin of Man, 2010; Title Editor and contributor: Enzyme Engineering (1980, Plenum Press); Carbohydrate Drug Design (2006, Oxford University Press); Galectins (2008, John Wiley and Sons). Recipient, the USSR Young Scientist National Prize, 1978; USSR National Prize in Science, 1984; USSR Science and Technology Gold Medal, 1988; Jewish Association of Cohanim Latin America Gold Medal, 2009. Member: American Chemical Society, Society of Plastic Engineers, American Society for Testing and Materials, American Architectural Manufacturers Association, World Academy of Art and Science, Russian Academy of DNA Genealogy. Home: 36 Walsh Road, Newton MA 02459. Office: Pro-Pharmaceuticals, 7 Wells Avenue, Newton MA 02459.

("Who's Who in America", 55th Edition, 2001, Volume 1 (A-K), p.2882, and subsequent editions; 2009, Vol. 1, p. 2693)
("Who's Who in Science and Engineering", 6th Edition, 2002-2003, p.506, and subsequent editions)
("Who's Who in the World", 19th Edition, 2002, p.1136, and subsequent editions)
...
Stories, Books, Papers:
- "Behold the Man. Part 1. 2006"
- "Behold the Woman. Part 2. 2006"
- "Joseph and His Brothers. Part I. DNA-Genealogy. 2007"
- "Joseph and His Brothers. Part II. Ashkenazim and Sephardim. 2007"
- "Joseph and His Brothers. Part III. Search for the Lost Tribes. 2007"
- "Joseph and His Brothers. Part IV. Search for the Lost Tribes in Asia and Africa. 2007"
- "Joseph and His Brothers. Part V. Search for the Lost Tribes over the Oceans. 2007"
- "DNA-Genealogy and the Search for the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Part I. 2007" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "DNA-Genealogy and the Search for the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Part II. 2007" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "DNA-Genealogy and the Search for the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Part III. 2007" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "DNA-Genealogy and the Search for the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Part IV. 2007" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "DNA-Genealogy and the Search for the Ten Lost Tribes of Israel. Part V. 2007" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "Hindi, Russi Bhai-Bhai in DNA-Genealogy, or Where the Slavs Came From. 2007"
- "Search for Lost Tribes of Israel. A Story Written in the DNA. Part 1. 2007"
- "Search for Lost Tribes of Israel. A Story Written in the DNA. Part 2. 2007"
- "Mutations and Calculations in DNA-Genealogy (Discussion). 2007"
- "Origin of the Jews via DNA Genealogy. Part 1. 2008" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "Origin of the Jews via DNA Genealogy. Part 2. 2008" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "Origin of the Jews via DNA Genealogy. Part 3. 2008" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "Origin of the Jews via DNA Genealogy. Part 4. 2008" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "Origin of the Jews via DNA Genealogy. Part 5. 2008" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "Origin of the Jews via DNA Genealogy. Part 6. 2008" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "Origin of the Jews via DNA Genealogy. Part 7. 2008" (in the Notes on Jewish History)
- "Where the Slavs and Indo-Europeans Came From? DNA Genealogy Gives an Answer. Part 1. 2008"
- "Where the Slavs and Indo-Europeans Came From? DNA Genealogy Gives an Answer. Part 2. 2008"
- "To Die for a Princess. Part 1. 2008"
- "To Die for a Princess. Part 2. 2008"
- "Haplotypes of Russian East Slavs - Nine Tribes?. 2009"
- "Haplotypes of Russian Ugro-Finnic Northern Slavs - Seven Tribes?. 2009"
- "The genome-wide structure of the Jewish populations and its comparison with DNA genealogy data. 2010"
- A Book: "Stories on DNA Genealogy" (645 pp, in Russian, with some personal stories in English; published 2011)
- "The Origin of Slavs and Other Peoples. Stories on DNA Genealogy"
- "DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome. I. Basic Principles and the Method" (J. Genetic Genealogy, 5, No. 2, 186-216 (2009)
- "DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome. II. Walking the Map" (J. Genetic Genealogy, 5, No. 2, 217-256 (2009)
"DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome" (Nature Precedings, 2008)
- "A comment on the paper: Extended Y chromosome haplotypes resolve multiple and unique lineages of the Jewish Priesthood". Human Genetics, 126, No. 5, 719-724 (2009)
- "Origin of the Jews and the Arabs: Date of their Most Recent Common Ancestor is Written in their Y-Chromosomes – However, There Were Two of Them" (Nature Precedings, 2010)
etc....

Now imagine that you're insulted by renowned international scientists such vote.

Your words:

Klyosov is Russian (Slavic)
R1a1 is Slavic
Their desire is slavic propaganda.


The fact that you insult the scientists and their work is illegal rules of the forum. And imagine that the scientist reads Eupedia?

And if you dispute the scientist of this level you can not because you're too far from his level of knowledge and references.


and one "scientific work" of Klyosov, even if there are 2 3 ore even 10 "scientific works" cannot change history

And once again you try to detract renowned scientist putting his words in quotation marks.

He is a eminent scientist and you have to honor it.

And what is your level in science?

And science is not static. A new discovery may change the previous common opinion. The charm of science lies in research and discovery and people learning about the world around them, just the opposite of propaganda that you are trying to marketed but you can not.

People who participate on this subject are the researchers in order to deepen their knowledge in areas of interest. And here you are trying to spam the topic which is illegal, and yet you insult many even renowed scientists.

Dr. Klyosov found:

Cit.
The obtained data suggest that the first bearers of R1a1 haplogroup lived in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia) about 11,600 years bp.

You have no reason to be mad at it because it is a science.

Neander
22-02-11, 15:56
But I still insist, because I have fact, I bring you scientific work which is against Klyosov:

This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic
of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the
similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya,
Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately
9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from
Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28,
suggest an expansion time of approximately 10 000 years
ago.

So, somebody doesnt think as Klyosov thinks. His "Scientific work" is not hte only in planet.

I reapeat to you: Go back to your biblitohec (if you have), and read something about Albanians, before opening or talking anything about Albanians. Otherwise I will call it IGNORANCE.

DejaVu
22-02-11, 18:04
Albanians dont exist as people or country, its a name given to them by western European powers " British". The chameleon game is over time to show your real identity.

The Albanians call themselves "Shqip-tari". This name is not Indo-European in origin and contains in it the Ural-Altaic suffix "ar" or "tar". Much like: "Khaz-AR", "Av-AR", "Magy-AR", "Bulg-AR", "Hung-AR", "Ta-TAR" - "Ship-TAR". see:
CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA
Wikipedia :
Albanians(Shqiptarë) !

Shqiptars alphabet interestingly enough, had Arabic letters until 1908 when the alphabet they use today was adopted.
Wikipedia :
Albanian alphabet(Latin) !


The Albanians were never mentioned in Byzantine, (not even of the works by Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus), Arab, Armenian or any other texts before the 12th cent.

One of the interesting facts that connect the Albanians to the Caucasus and that they are not the descendants of the Ancient Illyrians is the Turkish name for the Albanians. "Arnauti", which means "those who have not returned" in Arabic, for the Turks were aware of the origins of the Albanians. And they truly did not return, they stayed in Serbian and Byzantine lands.
The Turks call the Albanians : Arnavutlu ! Derive from Arabic "Arnaoud" : "lion heart" !

Victor A Friedman
"We know what Ancient Greek, Latin, and Old Church Slavonic, and Sanskrit look liked, and we have Turkic texts going back to the 8th century. We know what these languages looked like in the early medieval period. For Albanian, our oldest significant texts are from the early modern period. We know these changes, these grammatical influences, were taking place in the late medieval and early Ottoman periods (although some are older in some languages). It was really in the Ottoman period that the Balkan languages as we know them today came to resemble one another."

Albania got its name later by the strangers- Anglo Saxons who gave the name Albania to all mountainous regions in Europe. (British Albanian, Belgian Albanian, Avstrian Albanian, that is Alpian etc.) which by the Celtic forms Alb, Alp, that is Albanik, means Mountain (See documentary and wider with: Leon Dominian's, Friunters of Language.192).


THIS IS REAL FACTS!

Neander
22-02-11, 18:53
Dejavu,,,

You have forget to cite your NAZI-reference

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t548651-5/

It is nazi-page who spread lies, and nazi-serbian propaganda

I find hard to believe that this page (stormfront), even eupedia, is visited only ba intellectualls.

Regulus
22-02-11, 19:52
Dejavu,,,

You have forget to cite your NAZI-reference

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t548651-5/

It is nazi-page who spread lies, and nazi-serbian propaganda

I find hard to believe that this page (stormfront), even eupedia, is visited only ba intellectualls.


I don't know if anyone here has actually been on the Stormfront site, but I have and it is strongly racist. I would recommend avoiding it altogther. Places like that have no value.

DejaVu
22-02-11, 20:12
Dejavu,,,

You have forget to cite your NAZI-reference

http://www.stormfront.org/forum/t548651-5/

It is nazi-page who spread lies, and nazi-serbian propaganda

I find hard to believe that this page (stormfront), even eupedia, is visited only ba intellectualls.

Why dont you link to the sources, if its not true?

Neander
22-02-11, 20:35
Why dont you link to the sources, if its not true? I will say only one sentence:

In your last nazi-citing from nazi-stormfront, there is not even a single true word, back to Bibliothec, because you need to read (if you have such capacity to read anything), and dont spread nazi propaganda here.

Neander
22-02-11, 20:36
I don't know if anyone here has actually been on the Stormfront site, but I have and it is strongly racist. I would recommend avoiding it altogther. Places like that have no value. In fact, you know, because Dejavu is here, and he cited that page in tha last pseudo-article.

DejaVu
22-02-11, 23:58
You cant write crap here and think you can get away if you got no link.
Start to link on everything you are confirming, or get lost we dont need spammers and low iq behavior.

Garrick
23-02-11, 03:43
Neander you have gone too far.


nazi-serbian propaganda


Based on your words one can conclude that it is:

Albanian Jihad propaganda.

I will quote your words. You said a lot of bad for the Slavs, Serbs, Greeks, and even have the entire haplogroup R and N you termed mongoloid, and you insulted renowed American scientists Dr. Klyosov etc.


Your words:

It is nazi-page who spread lies, and nazi-serbian propaganda

Completely without reason you mentioned Serbs because Dejavu with whom you communicate is not a Serb.



Now after we discus about name of Albanians, we now discus about name of the greeks: Greek comes from gayreek.

Here you insult the Greeks.



R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic.

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.


Klyosov is Russian (Slavic)
R1a1 is Slavic
Their desire is slavic propaganda.



And here you insult and Slavs.
Also you insult a prominent American scientist Dr. Anatole Klyosov.



R1a is brother of R1b, toGether the sons of R1, it is son of R which in turn is birther of Q (amerindian-siberian haoplogroup).

N O P Q R are monogoloid haplogroups.

Here you insult R1a and R1b and some other haplogroups they are mongoloid.


So, somebody doesnt think as Klyosov thinks. His “Scientific work” is not hte only in planet.
Again you scorn prominent scientist Dr. Klyosov putting quotation marks. Unbelievable.
You could see his biography, he is probably Jewish.

Not matter which nationality, he is a great scientist, and gave a lot of works and great contribution to world science.

You should appreciate such people, being a scientist means a great and hard work, and acquire such a reputation as Dr. Klyosov can only rare individuals.



Maybe the sport a closer to you.

Imagine a tennis beginner who learns to hold the racket in hands and trying to offend Federer or Djokovic.


...
And now what I wanted to tell you.
Next post.

Garrick
23-02-11, 04:03
I reapeat to you: Go back to your biblitohec (if you have), and read something about Albanians, before opening or talking anything about Albanians.


I like reading but does not mean that every book I admire. Unfortunately, in the libraries are in various books can find a lot of propaganda.


Unfortunately, there are a lot of junk literature of the Balkans in every language where one nation celebrates itself and other degrades.

(New scientific knowledge about haplogroups provides excellent opportunities to the scientific way to get to the truth that reflects the real situation.)


Take for example DejaVu, he is very intelligent and well read and has lots of information.

Well done, but he has a goal, if someone goes to a large library and reads different books it may be due to different purposes.

Who does not have knowledge with DejaVu has nothing to look (though for some people he known to be very angry and insulted).


And you're wrong on several occasions persistently post and quoting ask a sentence from the work of Battaglia et al, 2008.


It is written is not favorable for Albanians.



But I still insist, because I have fact, I bring you scientific work which is against Klyosov:

This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic
of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the
similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya,
Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately
9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from
Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28,
suggest an expansion time of approximately 10 000 years
ago.

So, somebody doesnt think as Klyosov thinks. His "Scientific work" is not hte only in planet.

I reapeat to you: Go back to your biblitohec (if you have), and read something about Albanians, before opening or talking anything about Albanians. Otherwise I will call it IGNORANCE.


First:


That write Battaglia et al has no common points with the work of Klyosov.

There is no refuting the results and conclusions of one author by another.

Even the authors of these works one another do not quote.

Klyosov speaks about the arrival time of R1a in the Balkans and Battaglia et al about convert the foragers to farmers and times are different because Klyosov speaks about time earlier for several thousand years.

These are two separate processes.


Second:


Unconscious sentence where you mentioned Macedonia given the material and arguments in the hands of DejaVu.

He now has to waves that are the oldest carriers of haplogroup E in the Balkans were Macedonians.

Anyway what the authors speak about Greek Macedonia, he puts it all on his side.

www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26187&page=15 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26187&page=15)

#371

picture E-V13, on the right


(the picture is from the paper Battaglia et al, 2008)


But look for the Albanians. View the variance of haplogroup E-V13. Variance, speaks of more distant past.


E-V13 have large variance in Asia Minor and midst of Dalmatia, which means it was once much more dominant there.

And in Albania and Kosovo is small variance.



Now look at the data provided by Dienekes on the age of haplogroups among Albanians:


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html)

Albanians (12) 970 250 AD 100 BC
Albanians (8) 959 525 AD 230 AD


Small variance in Battaglia et al indicates that the Albanians are young populations in Albania ("young" in terms of when they occur") and data Dienekes say that the Albanians formed around the crossing of the old to the new era.

This means that the Albanians can not be descendants of the Illyrians.

Do it now DejaVu shake data to the Illyrians and the Macedonians FYROM same population.

You should not give the example.


Third:
See further:

Battaglia et al, 2008


“The presence of E-M78* Y chromosomes in the Balkans (two Albanians), previously described virtually only in northeast Africa, upper Nile,28,63 gives rise to the question of what the original source of the E-M78 may have been.”


Haplogroup E-M78 * was found on the upper Nile and among the Albanians.

In Egypt and still exists today haplogroup E-V13.

Do not even someone turn out that the Albanians more recently arrived from Egypt than previously thought and that this could be the transition from the old to the new century.



I personally do not argue, but you with the sources that you give help your opponents to have more material against you, as if that was the little matter of haplogroup enfold you.


And you can read my discussion with DejaVu in several posts on the pages where he wrote:



Maybe, because you are Albanian from Serbia.



Neander,


I’m researcher.


If you will honestly tell you, finding of Klyosov about R1a bearers came to the Balkans before 11.600 years has disrupted the picture that I built. Now I have to take into account the fact of the early existence of R1a in the Balkans and to change some of my settings, but it is a science.

Elias2
23-02-11, 16:57
http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/claims-about-old-albanian-leave-scholars-lost-for-words

The Austrian linguist, Norbert Jokl, is often described as “the father of Albanology” for his tireless work in the early half of the 20th century, documenting this little studied language.

Today, two new Austrians are taking on the quest to better understand the Indo-European tongue and show that it shaped the development of many Balkan languages.

Linguists Stefan Schumacher and Joachim Matzinger have begun the painstaking task of completing the first lexicon of verbs in Old Albanian.

The central hypothesis of their project, funded by the Austrian Science Fund, is that Old Albanian had a significant influence on the development of many Balkan languages.

Using the entire body of available Old Albanian literature, which dates from the 16th to the 18th centuries, they are analysing 1,500 pages of text, mainly from forgotten Catholic sources.

“Until now, little research has been carried out on these texts, as we are dealing almost exclusively with Catholic religious literature, which was first forgotten and then became taboo in the Communist era,” Matzinger said.

“Following the fall of Communism, this literature has once again emerged from the shadows, but, so far, there has been a lack of money and of background knowledge about [Albanian] Catholicism,” he added.

Different languages in the same geographical area often reveal similarities, despite lack of evidence of a common origin.

This phenomenon, known by the German term “sprachbund”, is evident in the Balkans, where the Albanian, Greek, Bulgarian, Macedonian and Romanian languages share words and structures.

But the Austrian researchers believe that Albanian was pivotal to the development of these other languages, rather than simply trading words with them.

The initial stage of the project, which has involved an in-depth examination of Old Albanian, has uncovered many hitherto unknown aspects to it.

“We discovered a great many verbal forms that are now obsolete or that have been lost through restructuring,” Schumacher said. “Until now, these forms have barely even been recognised or, at best, have been classified incorrectly.”

These lost verbs and structures are crucial in explaining the linguistic history of Albanian and its influence over other languages, the two researchers say.

They believe that they already have evidence to suggest that Albanian is the source of the suffixed definite article in Romanian, Bulgarian and Macedonian, for example, as this has been a feature of Albanian since ancient times.

Local Linguists Question Theory

The Albanian language’s influence on other regional languages, and claims that it is one of Europe’s oldest tongues, have long been a subject of dispute in the Balkans.

This is because the theory has political and ethnic implications and a potential impact on modern states’ claims to still disputed territory.

Some nationalists link the theory about the Albanian language’s antiquity to the related claim that Albanians must, therefore, have inhabited the region long before the Slavs arrived in the 5th to 6th centuries.

But while the Austrian research adds weight to the theory of the Albanian language’s antiquity, their work has received a cool welcome from Albanologists in Albanian and Kosovo, albeit often for different reasons.

Some scholars maintain that they have reached the same results as the two Austrians on their own.

Others remain distinctly cautious about the whole idea that Albanian “shaped” other languages.

Clirim Xhunga, a Tirana-based historian known for his nationalistic stance towards the language, said the Austrians’ research had not shown up any new linguistic, historical or etymological results.

Xhunga says his own work has already shown that a multitude of languages in and beyond the Balkans owe their origin to Albanian. In his articles published in Albanian newspapers he has suggested that both Latin and Ancient Greek derive from Albanian.

Kosovar academics, meanwhile, are less grandiose in their assessment of Albanian’s primary role.

Qemal Murati, from the Institute of Albanology in Pristina, said Albanian had exchanged a good deal with neighbouring languages but he doubted that it had shaped them.

“Albanians have for a long time had contact with the peoples of the Balkans, such as Greeks, southern Slavs, Turks, Roma, Jews and others,” he noted. “Albanians have taken and given plenty of elements in terms of vocabulary and grammar,” he added.

But he warned against the notion that Albanian shaped other languages, saying the claim should be treated with “strict scientific objectivity”, and citing the Albanian linguist, Eqrem Çabej, who said: “Let as talk with documents, as no one believes words anymore.”

Rexhep Ismaili, a Pristina-based linguist, is also cautious about some of the claims made about the Albanian language and its pedigree.

Albanian is clearly one of the ancient languages of the Balkans, he said, but its written form did not come until the 14th century.

In fact, the oldest surviving document in Albanian, a baptismal formula contained in a circular written by the Archbishop of Durres, dates from 1462.

It starts: “Unte paghesont premenit Atit et birit et spertit senit.” [“I baptise you in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit."]. In modern Albanian, this would be “Unë të përgëzoj në emër të atit, birit e shpirtit të shenjtë”.

“We cannot talk about the impact of one language over another,” Ismaili suggests, “but of a mutual fund of Indo-European and non-Indo-European languages of the Balkans”.

Garrick
23-02-11, 19:15
Elias2
You can see how Albanian exploit this claim Austrian linguist, Norbert Jokl and two new Austrians in the video (and you can read in Albanian forums):

http://wn.com/The_Albanian_Language_Pure_and_Pelasgian (http://wn.com/The_Albanian_Language_Pure_and_Pelasgian)

There are even on Wikipedia some of it:
(labeled Poorly Written)

"Do you have any suggetion if not please leave.The articul must define clearly the pelasgic origine of Albanians .There are many evidences about pelasgic origin of Albanian and the old "Greeks" which actually have the same origin , if you are interested you must know that with the Albanian language Nermin Vlora transleted with to day Albanian language 5000 old pelasgic transcript found in Greece, Aristidh Kola ( is in greek transleted as well)says that we have to protect Albanian language because is the language of Gods and heroes of Greece , he many other scholars explains the pelasgic origin of Albanian and the Albanian language as the base of other European Languages English included. Dodona."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AAlbania/Archive_2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk%3AAlbania/Archive_2)


As you can see from this brief presentation (can you imagine what the forums have) the goal is to negate the Greek culture and to present the Albanians as the natives.

But the Slavonic school has made proofs that as Pelasgian language is Slavonic.

For example, the linguist Sergei Rjabichkov has long researched and published a lot of books, one of them is:

Rjabichkov, Sergei V. 1998th Ancient texty Slavyan and adygov

Interestingly, the author claims:

Reading of a Linear A Text, Cretan tablets

Reading of the text of the Phaistos Disk

corespond (proto) Slavonic language.

http://slavonicweb.chat.ru/disk.htm (http://slavonicweb.chat.ru/disk.htm)

Total by this author Proto Slavonic languages are three:

1)the Scythian (Sarmatian) language is the Proto-Slavonic ones

2)Other Proto-Slavonic dialects are the languages of the Pelasges (the writing of Linear A, and its decorative version on the Phaistos disk) and

3)of the Etruscans.

On researchings by Russian, Polish and other scientists followed up the discovery of American scientists Dr. Klyosov that R1a in the Balkans exist 11.600 years ago.


While the Y-DNA Cruciani et al rigorous tests have found that E-carriers came to the Balkans 2000 to 2700 BC.

All the sources I gave in previous posts.


And in the Balkans have long had I, J, G and R1a people.

As regards the J and G people I think that the J and G carriers live in the Balkans, much before the E.

And you can read that the Albanian and Greek Y DNA differ, for example by Dienekes.

View one of our recent research, Ferri et al 2010, all the Balkan peoples graphically presented (including and some North African nations) and who is close to whom according the Y-DNA.


You can see the Y DNA tree. I and J carriers are at Y-DNA very close.

So maybe the language I people in Anatolia and the Balkans could not be much different from the language J of people in the same region.



But I people in the Balkans mixed their language with the language R1a people who arrived to the Balkans prior to 11,600 years.

As science and technology advance in the near future everything will become even clearer.
The key important are researchs of haplogroups/anthropological researchs, and they are already quite advanced and is now much more known and tomorrow will know more.

All other researchs: linguistic, archaeological, historical, and so on. will be to support.
In conclusion of this post I will tell you that I think that the Balkans peoples (Greeks, Serbs, Romanians etc.) should be calm and to properly weigh what is science and what is propaganda.

Zajaz
23-02-11, 21:00
Nice article!
First of all, I'd like to express my deep gratitude for the project of two Austrian linguists. Until know all linguists have done studies only in one side of the coin: the introducing of neighboring words in the Albanian vocabulary. It was created a fallacious impression that Albanian just absorb foreign words...but never give its words to the neighboring languages. It is very understandable that Albanian influenced other languages for many reasons:
- If Albanian is descended from one of the dialects of Illyrian...then it wouldn't be that strange to exert a large influence mostly in Slavic tongues. I've read somewhere that Slavs who settled in Illyria borrowed from Albanian many words. I agree that due to the scanty of written material this work is very delicate and should be treated with a great of caution!

Dian
24-02-11, 04:22
Neander
Renowned American scientist Klyosov and his work shows that R1a in the Balkans exist from before 11,600 years ago you call bullshit.
But who wants to participate and discuss he should do without the insults and spam and should uses arguments, knowledge and resources.
This is an extract from:
1

DNA Genealogy, Mutation Rates, and Some
Historical Evidences Written in Y-Chromosome
Anatole A. Klyosov http://precedings.nature.com/documents/2733/version/1/files/npre20082733-1.pdf
The Balkan ancient branch: the oldest trace of R1a1 haplogroup?
A series of 67 haplotypes of haplogroup R1a1 from the Balkans was published
32-
34
They were presented in a 9-marker format only (Fig. 4), which is a common .
case in research publications by population geneticists. One can see a remarkable
branch on the lower left side of the tree which stands out as an “extended and
fluffy” one. These are typically features of a very old branch compared with
others on the same tree. Also, a common feature of old haplotype trees is that
they are typically “heterogeneous” ones and consist of a number of branches.
An analysis of the main branches of the tree in Fig. 4 is given in Supplementary
Information, where thirteen haplotypes of the most extended and fluffy branch
are listed. Those haplotypes collected in Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, and
Macedonia
32-34
produced the following base haplotype:
13-24-15-10-12-15-X-Y-Z-13-11-29
Nature Precedings : hdl:10101/npre.2008.2733.1 : Posted 29 Dec 200828
Some deviations from typical ancestral (base) East-European haplotypes are
shown in bold, however, the third allele (DYS19) is the same as that in the
Atlantic and Scandinavian R1a1 base haplotypes. A mutational analysis results in
11,425 years from a common ancestor, obtained using the “linear method” with
correction for reverse mutations, 11,650 years using the quadratic method and an
averaged base haplotype, and 11,650 years using the all-permutation quadratic
method.
The obtained data suggest that the first bearers of R1a1 haplogroup lived in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia) about 11,600 years bp. It is
unknown whether R1a1 appeared in the Balkans presumably from R1 or R1a or
arrived from a yet unknown location. It was found
27
that haplogroup R1b
appeared from R1 about 16,000 years bp apparently in Asia.
Now let me show you the method of sampling fro the reference 32 & 34.

32. Barac, L., Pericic, M., Klaric, I.M., Janicijevic, B., Parik, J., et al. Y
chromosome STRs in Croatians. Forensic Sci. Internat. 138, 127-133 (2003)
---
Methods
Blood samples were collected from 166 unrelated healthy men from southern Croatia at the Department of Forensic Medicine and Biochemical Laboratory of University Hospital Split between 2004 and 2007. Genomic DNA was extracted using the standard procedures. Seventeen Y-chromosome short tandem repeat (Y-STR) polymorphic loci (DYS456, DYS389I, DYS390, DYS389II, DYS458, DYS19, DYS385, DYS393, DYS391, DYS439, DYS635, DYS392, GATAH4, DYS437, DYS438, and DYS448) were analyzed using AmpFlSTR Yfiler Polymerase Chain Reaction Amplification Kit.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
34.http://www.ebc.ee/EVOLUTSIOON/publications/Barac2003.pdf
lood samples were obtained from 457 Croat volunteers
with appropriate informed consent and with the approval
of the authorized Ethics Committee. A total of 109
individuals were sampled from six geographically dispersed
counties encompassing different regions of Croatia named
in this study as Croatian mainland sample while 348
individuals were sampled from four Adriatic islands
(Figure 1). A detailed description of sampling procedure
for 74 examinees from the island of Krk, 49 from Bracˇ, 91
from Hvar and 134 from Korcˇula was reported in our
previous paper.
16
All field studies were preformed by the
staff of the Institute for Anthropological Research, Zagreb.
The Y chromosomal analyses were performed by LB and
MP in the Estonian Biocentre, Tartu, Estonia.

1.We have ?. This indicate a question,and it is not a PREDICATION !!!
2. The DNA samples are not extracted from ancient bones .:smile:
So why are you so sure, the R1a1 appear around 11000 years bp in the Balkans?

Dian
24-02-11, 05:31
Albanians dont exist as people or country, its a name given to them by western European powers " British". The chameleon game is over time to show your real identity.
Maybe we are holograms:good_job:

CHECHENIA=ICHQERIA
ALBANIA=SHQIPTERIA
Wikipedia :
Albanians(Shqiptarë) !
Please don't confuse CHECHENIA with HYSTERIA
Friendly, I suggest to you this link http://www.merckmanuals.com/professional/sec15/ch201/ch201a.html. Maybe you can find out the real facts!

how yes no 2
24-02-11, 22:40
Now let me show you the method of sampling fro the reference 32 & 34
cheap try...

32-34 is abbreviation for: 32, 33 and 34
anyone can tell you that...

33. Pericic, M., Lauc, L.B., Klaric, A.M. et al. High-resolution phylogenetic
analysis of southeastern Europe traces major episodes of paternal gene flow
among Slavic populations. Mol. Biol. Evol. 22, 1964-1975 (2005).

besides Croatia work of Pericic did also have samples from Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia....
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.short

so I do not understand your point...
among many studied areas was also Croatia...
so what?
Klyosov clearly states that ancient R1a is related to areas of Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia, and not the area of Croatia... in fact, having large sample in Croatia (besides 33 also from 32 and 34) allows him to leave Croatia out of ancient R1a area even though Croatia is linguistically and culturally related to areas of Serbia and Bosnia where the ancient R1a is located......

Dian
25-02-11, 01:46
cheap try...
-
so I do not understand your point...

.............................:rolleyes2:

The point of view of some of you self called scientists, is totally nationalistic and localistic. This is the reason why I'm leaving definitively this forum. Io have no time for propaganda.
STOP the making racism with haplogroups!!!

iapetoc
25-02-11, 03:08
Garrick
Aristidi kolla is bullshit
the man is ignorant and the example of Stupidity iN Thessaloniki Univeristy
in search that was done they find more than 25% mistakes in purpose to show albanian language as Homerick
as an example I give the Dera which in Albanian means Door
and In Greek FLeece
and connects with Homeric Thera wcich In greek is Thyra
in fact I personally in blogs like zeus10 Found 40% mistakes and in purpose hiden words of Greek,
As an example I give you Amaltheia which is the goat of Zeus
Kolla supporters explain it as mountain Goat
and in greek pelasgic means always hard brest, never ending milk breast,
Kolla said Homers Erebos erevet is clear albanic word, with out knowing that is semitic erebu,
and many other bullshit
As you know the albanian pelasgic with Greek pelasgic have enough difference that is Why in
Auth, Nobert Yokl theory and approach is rejected as non Pelasgic
Nobert Yokl took many place names like Nis and Naussa Grece etc and translate in albanic language, that gave tottaly wrong results from other IE Greek Semitic and Thracian words

Aristidi kolla is the example to avoid in linguistic circles in Greece,


ON THE OTHER HAND when i read kolla I was amazed by the the many common roots,
in fact a 30% is near, that leads us That Albanian Language must have better treaty, and has many treasures But in hands of nationalist that only see everywhere Albania became a ridiculous hand of propaganda with out meaning or many times wrong Meaning
In fact I believe that Albanian language and mainly the Illyrian part of It must a link to compare and connect,
Although Albanian Language has treasures in the hands of Stupid nationalist becomes a stupid tool,
But if we use Albanian language in search comparing with other languages that can gives us better results, That why I still believe in Albanian LanguageBut not the way it is used,
as an example I give Neander's information @E [email protected] means tall men tall people
Makedonia means tall people probably that may have a connection or could be a coincidence,
But that does not prove that Makedonians are Illyrians,
cause in Greek Spain means people of Pan (God) and Russia means RED-BLOND
does that make Spanish and Russians Greek???
No Russia comes from Rus -> North and is not Greek word although has a meaning in some Greek areas (Russia in pontic Greek means blond, and in Thracia Red)
In fact I believe that Albanian Language must have better treat than today in hands of nationalists,
When I saw a research of Capodistrian University that has 700 unknown words in an amount of almost 6000, i knew that these words are not unknown but they must be connected with areas and civilizations, probably lost balcan or what ever
in fact many linguists connect Albanian language more with Messapic than with Illyrian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages

But words from ancient Illyrian must have survived,
although a possible devastasion from north could import slavic and the majority of words is romano-celtic 700/6000 is a good ground to excavate sources,
simply with the Albanians I discuss many of these words are not spoken today in albania, same way with Greece were ancient are not spoken.
But that does not mean they are not treasure



Garrick
I know that E came after J in Greece,
My problem is Peloponese or Sicily,
MtDna gives the biggest subsaharan mtDna in Greece, and in areas of achaic people myceneans,
dorians pushed myceneans in north area of peloponese were no arbanites livem, that area has more 40 of E, in fact everywhere mycenean tombs E is raised, every where not mycenean R1a and I is raised, J2 is much coastal due to pelag people
In fact maritime and connection with lions must be around 3000-3500 BC but that does not connect with 2700BC of crucciani for E
so could came later at 1800-2200 from Sicily or cyprus?
or arcadokypriot?
I must search the Cyprus E and compare and I m lazy now days
I am sure that did not came from minor asia cause we see drop of E % there,
Besides if I remember barletti said about maritime

iapetoc
25-02-11, 04:11
Zajaz
that can be solved and different,
words are simmiler to other slavic languages are clear Slavic, words that connected with pelasgic are albanian and Greek, and words are connected with thracian are both cause thracian is also mother of southslavic as Illyrothracian

how yes no 2
25-02-11, 21:46
.............................:rolleyes2:

The point of view of some of you self called scientists, is totally nationalistic and localistic. This is the reason why I'm leaving definitively this forum. Io have no time for propaganda.
STOP the making racism with haplogroups!!!

propaganda is what you did in post above...
you have deliberately misinterpreted scientific work in order to discard it...
that's called forgery and is basic ingredient of any propaganda....

do you think you talk with illiterate idiots who will trust you that "32-34" means 32& 34 without 33?

anyway, that's not reason to leave the forum...
but next time search for truth, not for arguments to win discussion....
in this way you and other people acting in that way. are discrediting idea of Illyrian origin of Albanians...
cause big lies are built out of small lies...
and if I wasnot carefull this small lie would be built in some bigger lies as well...
personally, I think that Albanians have partial origin from Illyrians, but I do not trust "evidences" that I have seen so far...

how yes no 2
25-02-11, 22:23
- If Albanian is descended from one of the dialects of Illyrian...then it wouldn't be that strange to exert a large influence mostly in Slavic tongues. I've read somewhere that Slavs who settled in Illyria borrowed from Albanian many words. I agree that due to the scanty of written material this work is very delicate and should be treated with a great of caution!

and where did you read that?

you see possible influence of Illyrians can be in words shared by south Slavs and Albanians and not used by other Slavs... I am sure there are such words...

but big percentage of Albanian words is shared with all Slavic people and not just with south Slavs, which indicates that influence was mostly in other direction than you think... that influence comes from Slavs who settled throughout Albania...

Dian
26-02-11, 01:36
propaganda is what you did in post above...
you have deliberately misinterpreted scientific work in order to discard it...
that's called forgery and is basic ingredient of any propaganda....
do you think you talk with illiterate idiots who will trust you that "32-34" means 32& 34 without 33?
I thought I was talking with people who know the distinction between the sign "&" and "-". It is useless for you to insist on 32 or 34. . The study of Pericic, I had read some time ago. There was not this one the question of my example. See now that I have also made a question at the bottom of my examples. In fact, I wanted to show that the samples were taken from living people, living today in that area. And then I asked if the DNA was extracted from the skeleton of a ancient bones ? Having a haplogroup that dates about 11,000 years ago, does not mean that it haplogroup originates from that area, or it is in that area since that time.

anyway, that's not reason to leave the forum...
but next time search for truth, not for arguments to win discussion....
in this way you and other people acting in that way. are discrediting idea of Illyrian origin of Albanians...
cause big lies are built out of small lies...
and if I wasnot carefull this small lie would be built in some bigger lies as well...
personally, I think that Albanians have partial origin from Illyrians, but I do not trust "evidences" that I have seen so far...
Have you considered before the facts below what they mean for the genetics?!!:thinking:

Procopius 'Wars of the Emperor Justinian( book VII. 14. 22-30)http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy165/mushka_bucket/Procopius.jpg
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy165/mushka_bucket/Pro1.jpg
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy165/mushka_bucket/Pro2.jpg
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy165/mushka_bucket/pro3.jpg
http://i788.photobucket.com/albums/yy165/mushka_bucket/pro4.jpg

For these nations, the Sclaveni and the Antae, are not ruled by one man, but they have lived from of old under a democracy, and consequently everything which involves their welfare, whether for good or for ill, is referred to the people. It is also true that in all other matters, practically speaking, these two barbarian peoples have had from ancient times the same institutions and customs. For they believe that one god, the maker of lightning, is alone lord of all things, and they sacrifice to him cattle and all other victims; but as for fate, they neither know it nor do they in any wise admit that it has any power among men, but whenever death stands close before them, either stricken with sickness or beginning a war, they make a promise that, if they escape, they will straightway make a sacrifice to the god in return for their life; and if they escape, they sacrifice just what they have promised, and consider that their safety has been bought with this same sacrifice. They reverence, however, both rivers and nymphs and some other spirits, and they sacrifice to all these also, and they make their divinations in connection with these sacrifices. They live in pitiful hovels which they set up far apart from one another, but, as a general thing, every man is constantly changing his place of abode. When they enter battle, the majority of them go against their enemy on foot carrying little shields and javelins in their hands, but they never wear corselets. Indeed, some of them do not wear even a shirt or a cloak, but gathering their trews up as far as to their private parts they enter into battle with their opponents. And both the two peoples have also the same language, an utterly barbarous tongue. Nay further, they do not differ at all from one another in appearance. For they are all exceptionally tall and stalwart men, while their bodies and hair are neither very fair or blonde, nor indeed do they incline entirely to the dark type, but they are all slightly ruddy in color. And they live a hard life, giving no heed to bodily comforts, just as the Massagetae do, and like them, they are continually and at all times covered with filth; however, they are in no respect base or evil-doers, but they preserve the Hunnic character in all its simplicity. In fact, the Sclaveni and the Antae actually had a single name in the remote past; for they were both called Spori in olden times, because, I suppose, living apart one man from another, they inhabit their country in a sporadic fashion. And in consequence of this very fact they hold a great amount of land; for they alone inhabit the greatest part of the northern bank of the Ister. So much then may be said regarding these peoples.
Procopius 'Wars of the Emperor Justinian( book VII. 14. 22-30)

The Medes and the Saracens had ravaged most of Asia, and the Huns and Slavs all of Europe; captured cities had either been razed to their foundations, or made to pay terrible tribute; men had been carried off into slavery together with all their property, and every district had been deserted by its inhabitants because of the daily raids
Procopius 'Secret history' chp 23


Consequently no place, mountain or cave, or any other spot in Roman territory, during this time remained uninjured; and many regions were pillaged more than five times.
These misfortunes, and those that were caused by the Medes, Saracens, Slavs, Antes, and the rest of the barbarians, I described in my previous works.
Procopius 'Secret history' chp11

The rule of the Goths, before this war, had extended from the land of the Gauls to the boundaries of Dacia, where the city of Sirmium is. The Germans held Cisalpine Gaul and most of the land of the Venetians, when the Roman army arrived in Italy. Sirmium and the neighboring country was in the hands of the Gepidae. All of these he utterly depopulated. For those who did not die in battle perished of disease and famine, which as usual followed in the train of war. Illyria and all of Thrace, that is, from the Ionian Gulf to the suburbs of Constantinople, including Greece and the Chersonese, were overrun by the Huns, Slavs and Antes, almost every year, from the time when Justinian took over the Roman Empire; and intolerable things they did to the inhabitants. For in each of these incursions, I should say, more than two hundred thousand Romans were slain or enslaved, so that all this country became a desert like that of Scythia.
http://procopius.net/procopiuschapter18.html
I repeat, was the DNA extracted from an ancient skeleton ?!!!!

iapetoc
26-02-11, 02:19
Dian your question is very clear and logic,

in fact when I join The G Group Blogs I saw dates far ancient as Unknown, tests from 1700 and test around 1900-1950,
I believe that yes some tests were from ancient bone, but not all,
I have said before in another blog that we need more test results, and make maps according time than today
But in Fact the varieties of Haplogroups that is isolated or closed societies can prove connections or no relations with other societies,
As an example I give you the Gennetic of Arberesh people who are considered a closed society, and search can have clear results that can not be rejected, a mistake of % is always in every statistic,

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

that is an isolated society.

I agree that much tests and a time map of Haplogroups would be better to work and realise,


I m giving you a page to see

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/G-YDNA/default.aspx?section=yresults


now somewhere Iread about a law 1/400 mutation rate,
that means that the more ancient is not the much % but the one that has more varieties,
by that we know that an A Ydna moved to a land that is today from a land that has more varieties,
If I am wrong plz someone correct me,
that is the way dian we find the moves of people, that moves can be also be mentioned somewhere and have a linguistic bond,
that is the reason that many older written today are considered bullshit,

we read Strabo and Herodotus and Ptolemy not make propaganda,
But to prove that the X Ydna is connected with Z Ydna linguistic by the W writer or by linguistic methods,
Linguistic methods and ancient descriptions are to help Genetic and not reject them,

Garrick
26-02-11, 03:01
Dian,
you certainly clear that you can not offend the renowned scientist, as did Neander, and use another approach.

You dispute his methodology.

It is a childish or as a layman imagines that he knows better than experts and I this speak in good intention.

That's similar to when a beginner who learns to hold the racket disputed play Federer or Djokovic, or someone who learns to match figures disputed play Kasparov.

No Dian, it's not how you think, but just so is the methodology used by Dr. Klyosov and other scientists, if you want to learn science you can and some things will become clearer you but it is long and arduous path of learning.

how yes no 2
26-02-11, 13:04
I thought I was talking with people who know the distinction between the sign "&" and "-". It is useless for you to insist on 32 or 34. . The study of Pericic, I had read some time ago. There was not this one the question of my example. See now that I have also made a question at the bottom of my examples. In fact, I wanted to show that the samples were taken from living people, living today in that area. And then I asked if the DNA was extracted from the skeleton of a ancient bones ? Having a haplogroup that dates about 11,000 years ago, does not mean that it haplogroup originates from that area, or it is in that area since that time.
I apologize....obviously I have misinterpreted your post, I thought you are inferring that Klyosov finds ancient old R1a in Croats but claims it is present in Serbs and not in Croats (32 and 34 are references for samples of Croats, 33 for various south Slavs)

yes, I agree that there are two possibilities:
1) ancient old pocket comes from stream-like spread that was stretching from south Siberia (22000 years old R1a) and was broken in two parts leaving two pockets: Balkan and south Siberia...
2) ancient old R1a pocket completely moved from some other place to Balkan in more recent times

read more about those possibilities at
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=366471#post366471

Runic
07-03-11, 23:53
What I find particularly odd about all of this is that Iberians partially descend from Eurasian Berbers (M-81) from the Paleolithic period.

In France you had a small Eurasian Berber (M-81) presence in the Western areas of the country since ancient times, and then much later around the 20th century you had Kabyle Berber immigrants to France, some of which intermarried into the French ethnic group.

Berbers are much different than what they were like centuries ago, because of assimilation.

The Eurasian Berber (M-81) can be found all over Western Europe and even to Scandinavia in small frequencies. I'd think that there were two different pre-Berber migrations possibly some that are Paleolithic in origin and others that are Neolithic in origins. I'd suspect that this Berber connection is Neolithic and present in certain frequencies in the Balkans, whereas the Iberian one is Paleolithic.

Could it be some indigenous Balkan Europeans partially descend from Neolithic (Berber) EV-13 settlers, and other Europeans such as Iberians partially descend from Paleolithic (Berber) M-81 settlers. Sounds interesting and worth looking into.

There are even theories Albanians partially descend from Arabs, since "Bird" in the ancient Near Eastern languages was "Sippar." Though, J1(Semitic) is very low all over Europe, including Albania.

I'd take those particular theories with a grain of salt, similar to Croatians and other Slavs having ancient Iranic origins, but then again those ethnogenesis hypotheses may carry some degree of accuracy after all.

Shqipe (Eagle - in Albanian)
Shqiptar (People of the Eagle - in Albanian)
Sippar (Bird City - in Sumerian/Modern Iraq Location)

Neander
08-03-11, 01:50
Shqipe (Eagle - in Albanian)
Shqiptar (People of the Eagle - in Albanian)
Sippar (Bird City - in Sumerian/Modern Iraq Location) Shqiptar has not link to Sipar.

Shqiptar came from Shqype which link to Scepter.

In this photo in the left you can see Eagle-Scepter

http://www.beastcoins.com/RomanImperial/V-II/Probus/Rome/Probus-RICV-183-Rthunderd.jpg

Neander
08-03-11, 01:53
It is a childish or as a layman imagines that he knows better than experts and I this speak in good intention.Expert is a "Fabrice".

We are "consumers".

We seek for the responsibility of Fabric for what we consume, since there are controls and police in every state to control production.

And we as consumers, seek responsibility, for what we are reading. We seek facts, and they are not anywhere.

Remind: Reader is a consumer. Consumer has his rights.

Sprinkles
08-03-11, 03:11
Haplogroup T is interesting concerning haplogroup E-V13.

There are two hotspots for T in northern africa, and europe. In northern africa: Morocco, Tunisia. In europe: Southern spain, Sicily. With this in mind we should consider evidence that these haplogroups crossed from northern africa into europe at those two points. We do not consider a middle eastern crossing, and a balkan -> italy -> north africa migration since the frequency of the haplogroup is low in the balkans, eastern europe, and turkey.

If we consider that T did cross into europe from north africa we should also consider the possibility that E crossed into europe from tunisia to sicily to albania (which is the only coastline on the balkans not protected by mountains) and diffused to greece and serbia from there.

http://i.imgur.com/YrNUQ.jpg

Drac
08-03-11, 07:40
Haplogroup T is interesting concerning haplogroup E-V13.

There are two hotspots for T in northern africa, and europe. In northern africa: Morocco, Tunisia. In europe: Southern spain, Sicily.

Not quite. The frequency of that haplogroup in southern Spain is very small:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Even your map contradicts your statement. Northern Italy and what looks like Austria/southern Germany are shown as having more than twice as much as southern Spain, and more than Sicily as well.

Sprinkles
08-03-11, 15:59
Italy shows a normal distribution throughout. 18% in Sicily, 10% in Central italy, 20% in North Italy. I don't really see another path of this haplogroup aside through tunisia, sicily and up towards northern italy. It may have also crossed in morocco and i would have suspicious that it did. Areas where it didn't cross are obvious, such as the Balkans, Greece -have large sea masses between them and North Africa. The probability of crossing there would be infinitely small. The only other path through europe is through the Turkey or Caucuses. These two probabilities seem small as well.

Neander
08-03-11, 22:22
I am laughing for 3 hours since I have read the stupidity of this genius Garrick. It seems that he know very well, albanian and berber. Even I know berber language very well, but only if Garrick translate for me.


say (eng.), timena (berb.), them (alb.)There is no similarity.


my (eng.), inu (berb.), im, ime (alb.)
IM the same as in english MY, just a metathese


we (eng.), nekni (berb.), ne (alb.)
it is more similar to latin NOS, NOSTRA, slavic Nasa, nas, etj


than (eng.), zi (berb.), se (alb.)it is more likely to be satemization of QUE latin.


meat (eng.), aksum (berb.), ushqim (alb.) (q no pronounciation in English, as soft ch)
Wrong translation, Meat = mish


fat (eng.), lidam (berb.), dhjam (alb.)
No similarity!!!


father (eng.), baba (berb.), baba (albBaba is also in Rhaetoromanian language. In greek language it is Papa.


thread (eng.), ifili, ifilu (berb.), fill (alb.) (ll pronounced as english l)Wrong translation!!!


elephant (eng.), ifil (berb.), fil (alb.) (l no pronounciation in English, as ly)FIL is turkish borrowing. Albanian language usually use the term Elephant, while it has not his own originall word for elephants.


black (eng.), әzzәf (berb.), e zezë (alb.) (ë pronounced as english ә, the: δә)
No similarity!!!


do (eng.), ja (berb.), a (alb.) Too short words, to compare, since short words usually change over time faster then longer words.


rotate (eng.), kәrukәr (berb.), qarkulloj (alb.)In latin CIRCULA, in english CIRCA


boast (eng.), baraj (berb.), mburrje (alb.)Wrong translation from E to A.
Mburrje means BRAG, is formed from albanian word BURRË, which means and is cognate to latin VIR (man, husband)


want (eng.), durhәn (berb.), dua (alb.)No similarity!!!


carry (eng.), babb (berb.), mbaj (alb.)No similarity!!! It is more cognate to english Bear.


eat (eng.), әkshen (berb.), ushqehem (alb.)No similarity.


fly (eng.), ffurrәt (berb.), fluturoj (alb.)Fluture, in both Rumanian and albanian means Butterfly, and is cognate to "Fly", also flutoroj in albanian means fly.


health (eng.), sehet (berb.), shëndet (alb.) In latin language "Sanitas".

So go **** your illiterate people of Russia with those stupid theories, and don't spam here.

iapetoc
08-03-11, 23:16
Sprinkess

the map you show is wrong

E-V13 came from cyprus with bronze
and is connected with mycenaen culture

is clear bronze time invasion before mycaene kingdom

read
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html)

it is connected most with achaic and bronze era

egypt had copper mines in cyprus
from there probably war or alliance with pelasgic enter balkans,

cyprus has a lot of E-V13 older than balkans, as also phillistines
it might there is a connection with arcado-cypriot , or ma'ahes (lion city)

Garrick
10-03-11, 03:05
Neander
You act like a child, everything what is not as thou wilt, or it is not similar, or it is short and so on.

There are a lot of words from the Berber and Cushitic language same or similar Albanian.

And clearly you is that I could not explore all, but I received words from European friends.

You do not know that this topic inspired from my correspondence with a Berber and I thought that he would meanwhile appear to topic, I wish that participate some Berber or Kushita or someone close to the African branch of the Afro-Asiatic languages (previously used the term Hamitic).

And this for the Russians is completely unclear why you say, if you read my attitudes you can know:

The Serbs are not Slavs.

Originally Serbs belong to the clan I, the carriers of I haplogroup 25,000 years ago from Anatolia came to the Balkans.

Serbs are Old Europeans.

Serbs are closer to the old Scandinavians and Old Germans who are I1 (once the same I clan) than Slavic R1a.

Slavs came to the Europe from Central Asia and they are Indo-Europeans.



Some words of Berber and Albanian, this is just for you, otherwise what was previously set is enough (you did not see another post with words):

dog (eng.), aqzin (berb.), qen (alb.)

tear (eng.), ga’s (berb.), gris (alb.)

foot (eng.), đ’a (berb.), gju (alb.) (đ berb. gj alb. no prononciation eng., as dy)

vomit (eng.), ns’әr (berb.), nxjerr (alb.) (x no pronounciation eng., as dz)

shit (eng.), bađ’ (berb.), bajgë (alb.)

blister (eng.), ffix (berb.), fshikë (alb.)

press (eng.), bbәz’ (berb.), bezdis (alb.)

climb (eng.), ari (berb.), rritje (alb.)

round (eng.), aquray (berb.), qark (alb.)

Aconform
31-03-11, 12:50
No, it is the traditional costume Tuareg and Albanian people.

This clothing is not related to religion or Arab influence, and later, it was worn by both the Christians and animists also.

You can read:

en.wikipideia.org/wiki/Tagelmust

"The tagelmust is worn only by adult males, and only taken off in the presence of close family."

Only Tuareg and Albanian men covered the head and face in pre-Islamic period, not women!

They look the same but are not related…

I assume the Berber used it for practical reasons.

The one used by the Albanian Christian Malsor started for other reason. In fact the fabric is a death shroud that’s wrapped around a person when he dies. All though all Albanians would not mind this as being their national dress. Never the les it’s a clan costume were 4 villages were Christian and one was Muslim.

Story is that after Gerg Kastioti uprising most of the Catholics fled to Italy fearing ottoman reprisals. The Malsor stayed in their villages in the north of Albania.

When the ottoman army came and ask that they surrender else they would kill every man woman and child so that no one would be left to burry them. And according to this clans legend the next day the leaders of the clan returned to the negotiation wearing the death shrouds as a sign of their defiance.

Were is a version the version woman were.

http://borafashion.com/veshjet-kombetare/pages/032_IMG_7230%20X%20FInal.htm

http://borafashion.com/veshjet-kombetare/pages/007_IMG_6890%20X%20Final.htm

Aconform
31-03-11, 12:59
hmmm cant seem to put the image ind...

here is link...

http://borafashion.com/veshjet-kombetare/pages/007_IMG_6890%20X%20Final.htm

http://borafashion.com/veshjet-kombetare/pages/032_IMG_7230%20X%20FInal.htm

Neander
31-03-11, 21:15
Neander
You act like a child,
You act like monkey, you act like sub-human, like savage,



There are a lot of words from the Berber and Cushitic language same or similar Albanian.
Hey stupid fool, read my words: There is NO ONE single word similar between berber and albanian. All is you stupid idea, you are losing energy in the wrong direction.



And clearly you is that I could not explore all, but I received words from European friends.
A stupid from Russia, does'nt know albanian language but he is competent to talk about albanian.


The Serbs are not Slavs.
Wtf are they if not slavs?


Serbs are Old Europeans.Serbs came in Balkan in the 7-th century. There is no debate about this. Here were Albanians, which was descend from illyrians before the arrival of Slavs in the 5-6 century. Serbs came here killed Albanians, and took Albanian lands. They are refuges here. Albanians are native settlers.



Some words of Berber and Albanian, this is just for you, otherwise what was previously set is enough (you did not see another post with words):I never in my life met such an idiot, who write such stupidities and respect these stupidities as "wonderful works". Definitely, YOU ARE AN IDIOT


dog (eng.), aqzin (berb.), qen (alb.)Does the Idiot Garrick knows how Q is pronounced in albanian, and in berber????
Does Idiot Garrick, know that in Latin language, CANIS means dog??



foot (eng.
shit (eng.), bađ’ (berb.), bajgë (alb.)
blister (eng.), ffix (berb.), fshikë (alb.)
press (eng.), bbәz’ (berb.), bezdis (alb.)
climb (eng.), ari (berb.), rritje (alb.)
), đ’a (berb.), gju (alb.)
Wrong translation.
Hey Idiot, I say to you, learn albanian first and then write about Albanian. HAVE RESPECT for this language, otherwise I have not respect for you, as you see in my post. Stupid idiot. Even you don't have more than 17 years.

PLEASE DON'T REPLY TO ME AGAIN. I DON'T WANNA DISCCUS WITH ILLITERRATE PEOPLE OF RUSSIA.

With these stupidities go tell fables to the childrens. Stupid Idiot.

Regulus
01-04-11, 20:58
http://i.imgur.com/YrNUQ.jpg



Wow, look at the 5% for the bulk of Estonia. does anyone have an explnation for this? Sprinkles, you have the notes for the E1 on the map, how does T fit into the picture?

Elias2
02-04-11, 06:52
You act like monkey, you act like sub-human, like savage,
Hey stupid fool, read my words: There is NO ONE single word similar between berber and albanian. All is you stupid idea, you are losing energy in the wrong direction.
A stupid from Russia, does'nt know albanian language but he is competent to talk about albanian.

Wtf are they if not slavs?

Serbs came in Balkan in the 7-th century. There is no debate about this. Here were Albanians, which was descend from illyrians before the arrival of Slavs in the 5-6 century. Serbs came here killed Albanians, and took Albanian lands. They are refuges here. Albanians are native settlers.


I never in my life met such an idiot, who write such stupidities and respect these stupidities as "wonderful works". Definitely, YOU ARE AN IDIOT

Does the Idiot Garrick knows how Q is pronounced in albanian, and in berber????
Does Idiot Garrick, know that in Latin language, CANIS means dog??

Wrong translation.
Hey Idiot, I say to you, learn albanian first and then write about Albanian. HAVE RESPECT for this language, otherwise I have not respect for you, as you see in my post. Stupid idiot. Even you don't have more than 17 years.

PLEASE DON'T REPLY TO ME AGAIN. I DON'T WANNA DISCCUS WITH ILLITERRATE PEOPLE OF RUSSIA.

With these stupidities go tell fables to the childrens. Stupid Idiot.

Calm down, he's right on most things, slavs came down but they didn't replace the populations. You're a nationalistic idiot.

gtcc1
08-05-11, 03:04
Serbian is Slavic language and what you write applies to all Slavic languages.

For example:

to know

Serbian: znati
Croatian: znati
Russian: знать (lat. znatь)
Ukrainen: знати (lat. znati)
Bulgarian: знам (lat. znam)

to lick

Serbian: lizati
Croatian: lizati
Russian: лизать (lat. lizatь)
Ukrainen: лизати (lat. lizati)
Bulgarian: лижа (lat. lizha)

Etc.

Slavic languages belong to one language group. Thus, the Serbian language should not be viewed in isolation, for then might turn out to all Slavic languages originate from Serbian as the least pretentious.

If you noticed in the text of Wikipedia under the Cognates, when compared Afro-Asiatic languages each other, compare the branch of languages, rather than every individual language.

So when it says Berber languages it is a branch within the Afro-Asiatic family such as the Slavic languages in one branch of the Indo-European family.

You can see that linguists tried to make connections between Indo-European and Semitic languages and see the result is simply no results.

"Hermann Möller (1906) argued for a relation between the Semitic and Indo-European languages. This proposal was accepted by some linguists (eg Holger Pedersen and Louis Hjelmslev) but has little currency today."

Can you imagine what would be the result of comparing Slavic languages with languages which further than Semitic?


Mean, the Albanian language is an exception because it is not classified into any group of languages, it is unique in Europe as well as Indo-European.

Even the Albanians have investigated the connection with other, non Indo-European languages, among Albanians there are alternative theories that originate from Egypt, you have here on the subject of a book published by one Arbresh from Italy.

And I personally knew the Albanians who claimed that the Egyptians originated.

And Albanians themselves write about it on Albanian forums.

And you can see that the haplogroups indicate that the most likely country of origin is the Upper Egypt.

Because there are many paths that indicate the relationship of Albanians and Africa (ie Egypt), among them the language also, it is worth exploring.


To someone trying to investigate that Slavic languages have roots with the Afro-Asian may be an attempt, as it does many other things may try, but objectively what he or she can expect to be achieved in that attempt?

The Albanian you met, did you torture or pay him? If not, for sure he was an idiot.
If there is any connection with Africa it was 20000+ years ago. Don't forget, all people originated in Africa.

gtcc1
08-05-11, 04:20
What I find particularly odd about all of this is that Iberians partially descend from Eurasian Berbers (M-81) from the Paleolithic period.

In France you had a small Eurasian Berber (M-81) presence in the Western areas of the country since ancient times, and then much later around the 20th century you had Kabyle Berber immigrants to France, some of which intermarried into the French ethnic group.

Berbers are much different than what they were like centuries ago, because of assimilation.

The Eurasian Berber (M-81) can be found all over Western Europe and even to Scandinavia in small frequencies. I'd think that there were two different pre-Berber migrations possibly some that are Paleolithic in origin and others that are Neolithic in origins. I'd suspect that this Berber connection is Neolithic and present in certain frequencies in the Balkans, whereas the Iberian one is Paleolithic.

Could it be some indigenous Balkan Europeans partially descend from Neolithic (Berber) EV-13 settlers, and other Europeans such as Iberians partially descend from Paleolithic (Berber) M-81 settlers. Sounds interesting and worth looking into.

There are even theories Albanians partially descend from Arabs, since "Bird" in the ancient Near Eastern languages was "Sippar." Though, J1(Semitic) is very low all over Europe, including Albania.

I'd take those particular theories with a grain of salt, similar to Croatians and other Slavs having ancient Iranic origins, but then again those ethnogenesis hypotheses may carry some degree of accuracy after all.

Shqipe (Eagle - in Albanian)
Shqiptar (People of the Eagle - in Albanian)
Sippar (Bird City - in Sumerian/Modern Iraq Location)

What does it take you guys to understand that the name SHQIPTAR is a very late adaptation, most likely after 1600 hundreds. Prior to that, the people that identify themselves as Shqiptar to day were called Arber at least from the Middle Ages on, and prior to that the population was identified in accordance to various tribal names...

how yes no 2
08-05-11, 04:22
What does it take you guys to understand that the name SHQIPTAR is a very late adaptation, most likely after 1600 hundreds. Prior to that, the people that identify themselves as Shqiptar to day were called Arber at least from the Middle Ages on, and prior to that the population was identified in accordance to various tribal names...

that makes sense as medieval serb texts mention Arbanas people.... never shqiptar...

Moroccan4Ever
18-05-11, 00:17
I am a berber and he did not say any word of Berber too LoL .... He is a serbopig obviously .... Albanians are related to Scots (Scotland in Albanian means Alba)

AlbIllyrian
20-06-11, 17:45
First of all Albanians are in the Y-Haplogroup.

DejaVu claims that Albanians are Caucasus origin but how could this be where there is not migration of Caucasus people in history. But there is only one theory that is excepted by Scholars and Historians and that is Albanians are people of the Balkans most believe of Illyrian origin some believe Thracian or Dacian but Illyrian is mostly exepted because of the Illyrian tribe the Albanoi who lived in the city of Albanopolis near kruja. It is believed that Albanian language is made up of mostly Illyrian but with other influences in the Balkans such as Tracian, Dacian, Pelasgian, Greek and obviously you will find words that are the same in Turkish because we where ruled by them for 500 years so it would make sense that we would have some Turkish words.

There is an old Illyrian place called Albulenë that is Alb = white Ule (old
Illyrian) = water or " Ujë i bardhë" today Albanian.
The same derivation has Ulk (old Illyrian) by the name of the ancient city
Ulkinon (today Ulqin) to Ujk that mean wolf.

Albania derives from the same Indo-European source as the name of the Alps,
which also appears in the Scottish "Albainn", for "highlands".
Alternatively, "Albania" may derive from the ancient Indo-European root
*albho, meaning "white", which also gave the name Albion, the ancient name
of England.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M2eXTRL5Gc

As you can see in the video that Albanian DNA is one of the oldest DNA in the Balkans this DNA is in Albanian people because we are made up the Pre-Historic Balkan DNA if we where Caucasus DNA then we would not be considered very old to the Balkans.

Illyrian-Albanian words
ren -- re
dard--dardha
toka--toka
las--lesh
mal--mal
vasa--vasha
ves--vesh
cuza-cuca
nat--nata
ara--arra
frim--fryma
ra--ra
caj--qaj
nis-nis
roj--rroj
leh--lind (lehem in Geg)
venedi--vendi
hyll--yll
bardi-bardha
fimia-famija
lissius-lisi
bur-buris
datani - data
drenis - dreni
ermas -jerm

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-01.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-02.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-03.jpg

The Pelasgian stele that was found on the island of lemnos can be translated in Albanian

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-05.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-06.jpg

Even the language of Etruscans has similar words with Albanian

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-07.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-10.jpg

More Pelasgian and Illyrian

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-08.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-14.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-11.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeFcp1-XArE&playnext=1&list=PL494A8044CE400C0A

Even words from Homer's Illiad and Odysseys are closer to Albanian than greek

1
Ai që nëm, nëm (folje) --------------------- albanian language today
Neme-sis, neme-sao ---------------------- homer's words
Katara --------------------------------------- greek language today

2
Anda, ënda
Andha-no
Efkharistisi

3
Arë, ara
Arura
Horáfi

4
Bashkë ec
Vask ithi
Porevume

5
Dera, Porta
Thira
Porta

6
Deti
Theti-s
Thalasa

7
Dhe, dheu (tokë)
Jea, dhor, dha
Ji

8
Dor-ë, dor-a
Ekedeka-dor-o
Qheri

9
Dru
Dris, drimos, driti
Ksilo

10
Edhe, dhe
Idhe, te
Qe

11
Elbë, elbi
Alfiton
Krithari

12
Enë (veshje)
Enimi
Ruho

13
Errët, errësirë
Ere-vos
Skotos

14
Ethe (kam ethe)
Ethir, ethae
Piretos

15
Flas
Flio, fliarae
Milao, omilae

16
Fryma, frima (dialekt jugor)
Frimao
Fisima

17
Hedh
Heo
Rhino, tinazo, sio

18
Heq (helkj = tërheq)
Elko
Travae

19
Iki, ike
Iko
Fevgo

20
Kale, kali
Kelis-tos
álogo

21
Kall (djeg)
Kileo
Qeo

22
Korr
Kiro
Thiro

23
Krua, kroi
Krunos
Vrisi

24
Krye, krie
Krithen, kari
Qefali

25
Lehem (lind)
Leho, lohia
Jenieme

26
Lepur
Leporis
Lagaes

27
Lesh
Lasios
Malĺ

28
Lig (i lig)
Lig-ios, lig-aes
Adhinatos

29
Loz, ljoz (arbërisht)
Lizo
Pezo

30
Lutem
Litome
Parakalae

31
Marr, mar
Mar-pto
Perno

32
Marrë (i marrë)
Margos
Trelaes

33
Më duket
Dhokei mi
Nomizo

34
Mend, mendoj
Mendohem
Medhome Sqeftome, nus

35
Mëri, mëni (dialekt verior)
Minis
Thimos

36
Mi, miu
Mis
Pondĺqi

37
Mjeshtër
Mistor
Tehnitis

38
Mjet
Mitos
Nima hondrae

39
Ndaj, daj (dialekt verior)
Dheo, deo
Horizon

40
Ne (neve)
Noi
Emis

41
Nisem
Nisome
Ksqinae

42
Nuk
Ni uk
Dhen

43
Nuse
Nisos, nios
Nifi

44
Para (përpara)
Paros
Mbrostá

45
Për ty
Par ti
Ja sena

46
Për-hapa, për-hapsh
Apsh, aps
Piso

47
Punë, puna
Ponos
Dhuliá

48
Qas, kias
Qio, kio
Simono

49
Qen, qeni
Qion
Sqilos

50
Re, retë
Rea (perëndia e reve)
Sinefo

51
Rrah
Rahso, raso
Dherno, htipae

52
Rri (qëndroj)
e-ri-dhome
Kathome

53
Rronjë (rroj, jetoj)
Rronio, rronimi
Zo, akmazo

54
Ruaj, rojtar
Rrio, rritor
Filáso

55
Shkel
Skel-os
Patio, patae

56
Shkop
Skipon, skiptro
Ravdhi

57
Sy
O-se
Máti

58
Tata, ati, i jati
Tata, ata, jetas
Pateras

59
Ter (thaj)
Ter-so
Stegnaeno

60
Thërres, thrres, thrras
Threo, throos
Fonazo

61
Torrë
Tornoo
Jiro

62
Udhë, udha
Udhos
Dhromos

63
Vanë (shkuan)
Van
Pigan

64
Vend, ved
Ved-os, vedh-os
Edhafos, topos

65
Verë (stina e Verës)
Vear
Kaloqeri

66
Vesa, versa
Versi
Dhrosos

67
Vesh, vishem
Ves-this, vesnimi
Forae, foráo

68
Zien
Zei
Vrazi

So according to DNA, Language ancient Tribes of Illyrian and other ancient people there is only 1 explination that Albanians are a very ancient race of people of the Balkans and we do not come from Caucasus but we are Illyrian and we deserve the name as modern Illyrian just like Greeks deserve the name modern Hellenes some scholars and historians believe that the truth to the past lies within the Albanian language culture and people.

LONG LIVE ALBANIA

LONG LIVE ILLYRIA

iapetoc
21-06-11, 01:55
HAHAHAH A Kolla strikes back,

Ahahahahahaha

why on purpose you translate wrong the Greek?
why?
plz put the Greek in their real form and language,

like 68
greek is Ζεει not Zei and also Ζεματαει and Ζεσις is the boil, Βραζει means turns to vapor not warming water.

Learn Greek
σημειο Ζεσης (point of vapor) =100 C
βρασμος the start of vapor (air bubbles) in the water that is warming.
try to understand the difference

Like No 1
bullshit again of Zeus 10

Nemesis Νεμεσις is the Godess of divide
virb is Νεμω, the divine division, The willing division,
noun is NOMΟΣ Nomos means THE LAW
NEMESIS THE DIVINE PUNISHMENT of Gods (not human judge) became curse katara (to walk the path down)

so plz take away that bullshit
Cause they are just Bullshit of an Nationalistic who on Purpose Hide the Greek Language of Modern Greeks,
and puts another words Just to impress

NEMESIS IS THE GODESS OF NOMOS THE LAW GODESS
NEMESIS EIMARMENE AND JUSTICE.

Katara is the curse not the nemesis


PLZ ERASE THAT BULLSIT
CAUSE THE NEXT YOU WILL TELL US IS THAT ALABANIANS ARE MORE GREEKS THAN THE GREEKS,
OR AT LEAST PUT THE CORRECT GREEK WORD AND NOT A FAKE ONE.


Look at 44
Oh my God
the Homeric is PROS
MODERN GREEK IS PROS
AND LOOK WHAT YOU WRITE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
OH MY GODDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD


Just look what you write

5
Dera, Porta
Thira
Porta


so Dera is not connected with English Door or a celtic connection but with Homeric Thura Θυρα (spell θουρα Today Thira)
which in modern Greek is also Θυρα,
but no modern Greeks a Latin french language from crusaders time and use port.
IN FACT PORT WAS IMPORTED IN GREEKS BY ARBANITES AND FROM CRUSADERS.
PORT IS IN THE MODERN ATHENEAN DIALECT WHILE BEFORE 1900 DID NOT EXIST IN GR MAKEDONIA PONTIC GREEKS SMYRNA AREA.
Port is imported by Venice Crusaders and Arvanites,
Areas that the above never enter use the Θυρα Ξωθυρο Κατοφλι (gate->katofli)
then why window in Greek is παρα-θυρο (almost door) and NOT PARA-PORTA ??????

simply you hide in purpose the Greek language just to prove that Albanians are more GREEKS THAN THE GREEKS

it is a pitty Zeus10 just hope that the only victim of your bullshit is your family,


look at that

65
Verë (stina e Verës)
Vear
Kaloqeri

the man is creating Homeric words by his mind
vear means Monks ??? so they had monks that time???
Yes Myceneans were Christians and had monasteries

AHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:


Taranis read it, you will laugh all day,



First of all Albanians are in the Y-Haplogroup.

DejaVu claims that Albanians are Caucasus origin but how could this be where there is not migration of Caucasus people in history. But there is only one theory that is excepted by Scholars and Historians and that is Albanians are people of the Balkans most believe of Illyrian origin some believe Thracian or Dacian but Illyrian is mostly exepted because of the Illyrian tribe the Albanoi who lived in the city of Albanopolis near kruja. It is believed that Albanian language is made up of mostly Illyrian but with other influences in the Balkans such as Tracian, Dacian, Pelasgian, Greek and obviously you will find words that are the same in Turkish because we where ruled by them for 500 years so it would make sense that we would have some Turkish words.

There is an old Illyrian place called Albulenë that is Alb = white Ule (old
Illyrian) = water or " Ujë i bardhë" today Albanian.
The same derivation has Ulk (old Illyrian) by the name of the ancient city
Ulkinon (today Ulqin) to Ujk that mean wolf.

Albania derives from the same Indo-European source as the name of the Alps,
which also appears in the Scottish "Albainn", for "highlands".
Alternatively, "Albania" may derive from the ancient Indo-European root
*albho, meaning "white", which also gave the name Albion, the ancient name
of England.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8M2eXTRL5Gc

As you can see in the video that Albanian DNA is one of the oldest DNA in the Balkans this DNA is in Albanian people because we are made up the Pre-Historic Balkan DNA if we where Caucasus DNA then we would not be considered very old to the Balkans.

Illyrian-Albanian words
ren -- re
dard--dardha
toka--toka
las--lesh
mal--mal
vasa--vasha
ves--vesh
cuza-cuca
nat--nata
ara--arra
frim--fryma
ra--ra
caj--qaj
nis-nis
roj--rroj
leh--lind (lehem in Geg)
venedi--vendi
hyll--yll
bardi-bardha
fimia-famija
lissius-lisi
bur-buris
datani - data
drenis - dreni
ermas -jerm

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-01.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-02.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-03.jpg

The Pelasgian stele that was found on the island of lemnos can be translated in Albanian

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-05.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-06.jpg

Even the language of Etruscans has similar words with Albanian

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-07.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-10.jpg

More Pelasgian and Illyrian

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-08.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-14.jpg

http://www.thelosttruth.altervista.org/SitoEnglish/some_images/Untitled-TrueColor-11.jpg


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeFcp1-XArE&playnext=1&list=PL494A8044CE400C0A

Even words from Homer's Illiad and Odysseys are closer to Albanian than greek

1
Ai që nëm, nëm (folje) --------------------- albanian language today
Neme-sis, neme-sao ---------------------- homer's words
Katara --------------------------------------- greek language today

2
Anda, ënda
Andha-no
Efkharistisi

3
Arë, ara
Arura
Horáfi

4
Bashkë ec
Vask ithi
Porevume

5
Dera, Porta
Thira
Porta

6
Deti
Theti-s
Thalasa

7
Dhe, dheu (tokë)
Jea, dhor, dha
Ji

8
Dor-ë, dor-a
Ekedeka-dor-o
Qheri

9
Dru
Dris, drimos, driti
Ksilo

10
Edhe, dhe
Idhe, te
Qe

11
Elbë, elbi
Alfiton
Krithari

12
Enë (veshje)
Enimi
Ruho

13
Errët, errësirë
Ere-vos
Skotos

14
Ethe (kam ethe)
Ethir, ethae
Piretos

15
Flas
Flio, fliarae
Milao, omilae

16
Fryma, frima (dialekt jugor)
Frimao
Fisima

17
Hedh
Heo
Rhino, tinazo, sio

18
Heq (helkj = tërheq)
Elko
Travae

19
Iki, ike
Iko
Fevgo

20
Kale, kali
Kelis-tos
álogo

21
Kall (djeg)
Kileo
Qeo

22
Korr
Kiro
Thiro

23
Krua, kroi
Krunos
Vrisi

24
Krye, krie
Krithen, kari
Qefali

25
Lehem (lind)
Leho, lohia
Jenieme

26
Lepur
Leporis
Lagaes

27
Lesh
Lasios
Malĺ

28
Lig (i lig)
Lig-ios, lig-aes
Adhinatos

29
Loz, ljoz (arbërisht)
Lizo
Pezo

30
Lutem
Litome
Parakalae

31
Marr, mar
Mar-pto
Perno

32
Marrë (i marrë)
Margos
Trelaes

33
Më duket
Dhokei mi
Nomizo

34
Mend, mendoj
Mendohem
Medhome Sqeftome, nus

35
Mëri, mëni (dialekt verior)
Minis
Thimos

36
Mi, miu
Mis
Pondĺqi

37
Mjeshtër
Mistor
Tehnitis

38
Mjet
Mitos
Nima hondrae

39
Ndaj, daj (dialekt verior)
Dheo, deo
Horizon

40
Ne (neve)
Noi
Emis

41
Nisem
Nisome
Ksqinae

42
Nuk
Ni uk
Dhen

43
Nuse
Nisos, nios
Nifi

44
Para (përpara)
Paros
Mbrostá

45
Për ty
Par ti
Ja sena

46
Për-hapa, për-hapsh
Apsh, aps
Piso

47
Punë, puna
Ponos
Dhuliá

48
Qas, kias
Qio, kio
Simono

49
Qen, qeni
Qion
Sqilos

50
Re, retë
Rea (perëndia e reve)
Sinefo

51
Rrah
Rahso, raso
Dherno, htipae

52
Rri (qëndroj)
e-ri-dhome
Kathome

53
Rronjë (rroj, jetoj)
Rronio, rronimi
Zo, akmazo

54
Ruaj, rojtar
Rrio, rritor
Filáso

55
Shkel
Skel-os
Patio, patae

56
Shkop
Skipon, skiptro
Ravdhi

57
Sy
O-se
Máti

58
Tata, ati, i jati
Tata, ata, jetas
Pateras

59
Ter (thaj)
Ter-so
Stegnaeno

60
Thërres, thrres, thrras
Threo, throos
Fonazo

61
Torrë
Tornoo
Jiro

62
Udhë, udha
Udhos
Dhromos

63
Vanë (shkuan)
Van
Pigan

64
Vend, ved
Ved-os, vedh-os
Edhafos, topos

65
Verë (stina e Verës)
Vear
Kaloqeri

66
Vesa, versa
Versi
Dhrosos

67
Vesh, vishem
Ves-this, vesnimi
Forae, foráo

68
Zien
Zei
Vrazi

So according to DNA, Language ancient Tribes of Illyrian and other ancient people there is only 1 explination that Albanians are a very ancient race of people of the Balkans and we do not come from Caucasus but we are Illyrian and we deserve the name as modern Illyrian just like Greeks deserve the name modern Hellenes some scholars and historians believe that the truth to the past lies within the Albanian language culture and people.

LONG LIVE ALBANIA

LONG LIVE ILLYRIA


Sorry but that is the most Funny linguistic, I ever read

just look No3
the word Agros or Argos or modern Αγροκτημα Αγροτης Doesnot exist in Modern Greeks,
Greek language came from outer space and use the word χωραφι (divided field, my share on Argos) :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

sorry I can not control my self any more,

that text is just more than funny, it is ridiculous.


ALBION DOES NOT MEAN WHITE LAND, IN GREEK OR PELASGIC
ALBION IN GREEK MEANS land of Seagalls αλβιtος αλβιτρος (Larus Glaucus)
also could be Alluvium but I don't know if it is connected.in Latin or in celtic or in another language maybe but not in pelasgian or in Greekin fact Alban is connected with the ancient Albocense, city Alba Lullia, or with Normands Alba of scotland a small kingdom due to Normands,


wtf ?

39
Ndaj, daj (dialekt verior)
Dheo, deo
Horizon

where in homer is that word?
Maybe you mean theo Θεω
why you make θ το δ?? Θεω virb modern Greek θεα (θέ-α =wide view, see far, θ-ά = goddess, she runs faster than eye)
Θεω exist in Homer Δεω also exist but means Beg, Plz, Δεησις is a pray to god to ask a favor,
Agamemnon Θεους Εδεησαι In Avlis
Odysseus Ποσειδωναν ουκ εδεησας (did pray to Poseidon)

Horizon οριζοντας comes from the limit,
Horizon is the limit that an eye can theei (the limit that an eye can run, the limit that an eye can see, Οριο is the limit, Θέα is the view from above, Θέω is the virb, means run fast.


for every one that read that look how ridiculous can someone be when its purpose is pure the Nationalistic and NOT THE SCIENCE,

62
Udhë, udha
Udhos
Dhromos

Just look he wants to make a pure Greek word albanian and destroys and puts letters,
Homeric pure , ΟΔΟΣ
Modern Greek ΟΔΟΣ ODOS,

in every street in Greece there is that label.

http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&q=%CE%BF%CE%B4%CE%BF%CF%82&biw=1152&bih=733

http://www.digital-camera.gr/index.php?option=photos&action=view&photo_id=47817http://www.digital-camera.gr/index.php?option=photos&action=view&photo_id=4781748994899




now the ones who read the above you know what is about,
Fake impressions of a nationalistic, I wonder for what reason???

maybe some of you instead of οδος you read Dhromos cause it is saying.



3.
Arë, ara
Arura
Horáfi

THE HOMERIC WORD IS ARGOS NOT ARURA,
THE MODERN GREEK IS AGROS (change of rg to gr)
I wonder in what rapsody and field you found that Arura, in what Version? the Albanian translation? or your own? simply not exist,
read here in wiki
http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%91%CE%B3%CF%81%CE%BF%CF%86%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%B1%C E%BA%CE%AE

and see the trade mark here
4900

it says Greek Field police
ΑΓΡΟ - ΦΥΛΑΚΗ (field and crop guardians)
official mark of one of many police services,
it Sais ΑΓΡΟ like HOMER NOT ARURA!!!!!!!!!!!
Besides Aruris in Greek Αρουραιος Aruris is the RAT

All text that I copy is just a Hoax,
But with out fear he post it,

the whole case of some Balcanic Nationalist is just for laugh? or to fear?
as the above are many.


JUST ONE QUESTION TO ALL LINGUISTIC THAT READ THAT

4
Bashkë ec
Vask ithi
Porevume

Can you tell me the place where homer is telling the Vask ithi ?????
it sounds more Turkish than Homeric!!!!!
I still wonder Book rapsody and number line
Vask ITHI Βασκ ηθη means the cultural customs of Vasques


All litteral look at the 3 bellow

Anda, ënda
Andha-no
Efkharistisi

well the Homeric is Εδυω (eduo or Iduo, passive Εδωμαι edomai, remember the Edom brother of Jakob and edomites people,)
the modern Greek is Ηδονη, virb ηδονιζομαι, noun Ηδυ (liquor is Ηδυποτο, pleasure drink)
He make Εδωμαι το Andha-no just to connect it with Albanian, and then say Homer was Albanian....
while in purpose he did not put ηδονη but another word with almost similar meaning

Shkel
Skel-os
Patio, patae

Homeric Skelos Σκελος ις the upper place of feets, the thigh
Homeric Σκελέα are the pants,
and wrote a word that does not exist in Greek!!!!!!!
while modern word for undergament are βρακι from byzantine εσωβρακιον (inside waterproof, ομβρος omvros is the rain) and Σκελέα Skelea,
Well Patio Patae not exist, the only connection is Petio, Petae which means throw !!!!
Who Knows maybe the word Σκελετος Skeleton is Not Greek, But Albanian and means Foot!!!!!
Skeleton after albanian Shkel = foot


Tata, ati, i jati
Tata, ata, jetas
Pateras

All you know about linguistic plz tell me Homer word for 'dad' is jetas?
Oh GODS ON OLYMP WHY YOU DESERTED US?
who knows Homer was speaking modern Albanian and instead of Pater (Father) and Patrios call the dad 'Babam' imagine Hector and Priamus 'Babam' or Tata (like south Slavic Tatko)
I wonder in which rapsody he read it????

Besides I like the end of his post.

Long Live presidente
Long live Fuhrer
Ave CEASAR
Yeah he forgot
God Save Illyria and a \+/

it reminds me 1930 -1950
3 Hurray to King
3 Hurray to Fuhrer or Hail
3 Hurray to comrate Piotr Joseph
3 Hurray to Leader Tung Che (and 3 times read the book)

who knows maybe in his next post, After the slain of Greek and Homeric to connect them with Albanian and 'prove' that greek are not Homeric but came from outer space, He will tell us that Homer is Albanian!!!!!
I wonder about Dejavu, I guess for Him Homer was a Fyromian,

poor Homer after 3200 years a @[email protected]@ slain your literature, for 3200 years no 'wiseguy' and in 2000 we found a new explanation of homer,


and since some do not understand

I REALLY WONDER ABOUT THE BESA OF THE ONE WHO SLAIN HOMER,
SIMPLY NO BESA MAN.

http://www.digital-camera.gr/index.php?option=photos&action=view&photo_id=47817

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:02
There are 2 different subclades E in Europe: E-M81 and E-M78.

E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), formerly E1b1b1b, E3b1b, and E3b2, is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghreb), dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1)[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Arredi-28) This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximately 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt.[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Arredi-28)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-29)[26] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-30) Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozabite_people), Middle Atlas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Atlas), Kabyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people) and other Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) marker". Pereira et al. (2010 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#CITEREFPereira_et_al.2010)) report high levels amongst Tuareg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuareg_people) in two Saharan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahara) populations - 77.8% near Gorom-Gorom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gorom-Gorom), in Burkina Faso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burkina_Faso), and 81.8% from Gosi (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Gosi&action=edit&redlink=1) in Mali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali). There was a much lower frequency of 11.1% in the vicinity of Tanut (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Tanut&action=edit&redlink=1) in the Republic of Niger (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Niger).

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-33) it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 10% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Adams2008-19)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-34)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-35)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), ranging from 18% (8/45)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) to 41% (23/56).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands) with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife) (10.68%), Gran Canaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Canaria) (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerteventura) (13.33%).



4939


In rest of Europe, Albania included, E-M78 is the prominent subclade. E-M78 is from Middle East origin.

Canek
28-06-11, 22:55
Good post Ferreira. Iberians are more like moors than europeans. Facts probe this.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 22:58
Really not true, only 5% of spaniards are M81, but yes, link with north Africa exists in Spain.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 23:00
Faboulous article about Haplogroup E and subclades distribution!!!

http://www.genebase.com/learning/article/2

4960

Haplogroup E in Spain and Portugal is linked with berber people. In the rest of Europe is linked with Middle East.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 23:16
Really not true, only 5% of spaniards are M81, but yes, link with north Africa exists in Spain.

I have to rectify. If this map is true, E Haplogroup in Spain sum 10%.
http://www.julepe.org/GenographicProject/Y_MAP_arrow.gif

Carlitos
28-06-11, 23:36
I have to rectify. If this map is true, E Haplogroup in Spain sum 10%.
http://www.julepe.org/GenographicProject/Y_MAP_arrow.gif

It's great to have it in Spain and many other European countries are in Europe thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years. What are you trying to prove, in addition to the ridiculous?

Ferreira
29-06-11, 01:55
It's great to have it in Spain and many other European countries are in Europe thousands of years, hundreds of thousands of years. What are you trying to prove, in addition to the ridiculous?

I'm not trying to prove anything. The article is not mine, :).
Genetic scientific have proved yet that 10% os spaniards have Haplogroup E from bereber origin.

I don't undestand why are you participating in a genetic forum if you don't accept scientific evidence? It's an absurd.

Carlitos
29-06-11, 02:05
I'm not trying to prove anything. The article is not mine, :).
Genetic scientific have proved yet that 10% os spaniards have Haplogroup E from bereber origin.

I don't undestand why are you participating in a genetic forum if you don't accept scientific evidence? It's an absurd.

You're just manipulating the information.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 02:15
You're just manipulating the information.

I'm only posting genetic articles. It's clear that for you, the results are scared. But then you can try to talk with those genetics researchers who made the article. If you don't accept scientific evidence you shouldn't post here.

Drac
29-06-11, 08:33
I'm only posting genetic articles. It's clear that for you, the results are scared. But then you can try to talk with those genetics researchers who made the article. If you don't accept scientific evidence you shouldn't post here.

Don't try to be so disingenuous. You are carefully choosing what to post, and, as already pointed out by others, in a manner typical of a t-r-o-l-l, with the obvious intention to offend and incite harsh responses from other users. On top of that, you contradict your very own sources (sometimes you claim Iberia only has about 5% of "Berber" haplogroups, then you find another "source" and quickly raise it to 10% and so forth.) You also try to ignore what other users show you. All of it spells T-R-O-L-L from miles away.

Needless to say, you are not really Spanish, either from Galicia or anywhere else.
And the "Canek" account is either your sockpuppet or your stooge (always supposedly "agreeing" with your nonsense.)

Knovas
29-06-11, 10:24
Belong to E-M81 does not mean in any case that a person is closer to the Moors or Berbers. Haplogroup marker has nothing to do with autosomal DNA, wich tells the full personal description. Only a Trol or a clueless charlatan without any knowledge could say that Iberians are like the Moors, and almost not Europeans XD. Admixture analysis probe that this is definitely false.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 13:27
Belong to E-M81 does not mean in any case that a person is closer to the Moors or Berbers. Haplogroup marker has nothing to do with autosomal DNA, wich tells the full personal description. Only a Trol or a clueless charlatan without any knowledge could say that Iberians are like the Moors, and almost not Europeans XD. Admixture analysis probe that this is definitely false.

Keep on ignoring scientific evidence, I don't care. Genetic Scientific don't lie. If you don't like the results of the tests, I suggest you don't participate in genetic forums. The evidence can not be stopped and will be increasingly in the public domain. What are you going to do, deny science? :rolleyes2:

I feel sorry for your, because your words reveal a deep contempt for another cultures, but it is not my problem.

I bring genetic articles that are accepted by the international scientific community. You only bring words of hatred and resentment. :wary2:

Knovas
29-06-11, 13:43
¿You are trying to say that if somebody belongs to E-M81 must be closer to the Moors? You are free to do so, but you'll be mistaken everytime if you do it with Iberians. There's a huge difference between an Iberian and a North African, that's the only evidence you don't like/want to see. Haplogroup only tells information about a first ancestor thousands of years ago, ¿is it clear for you?

Stop with the circus.

Canek
29-06-11, 20:22
Excellent info Ferreira. Good job owning the delusional racists.

There's still a hope for Spain with people like you.

Ferreira
29-06-11, 20:27
¿You are trying to say that if somebody belongs to E-M81 must be closer to the Moors? You are free to do so, but you'll be mistaken everytime if you do it with Iberians. There's a huge difference between an Iberian and a North African, that's the only evidence you don't like/want to see. Haplogroup only tells information about a first ancestor thousands of years ago, ¿is it clear for you?

Stop with the circus.


I'm trying anything, they, genetic scientifics, are trying, NOT ME.

It really is something terrible to you the existence of E-M81 in Spain. I feel sorry for you. You can not stop the scientific evidence, or describe it as a circus. It's ridiculous.

If you don't accept genetic research, why do you participate in a genetic forum?