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Maciamo
16-01-11, 01:22
This is a little quiz to test your abilities to discern words from Germanic, Latin, Greek or Celtic origin in English. If your mother tongue is a Romance or Germanic language other than English, it should be easier than if you are a native speaker of English or if your mother tongue is neither Romance nor Germanic.

List 1

abate, apology, ban, cancel, cattle, caveat, cottage, council, customize, dispatch, endeavour, factory, genuine, grateful, issue, joke, office, picture, poor, price, quiet, rehearse, suitable, supply, ubiquitous (25 words)


Feel free to try and guess how many words belong to each language family without checking them up.


EDIT : here are two more lists, if you wish to try more.

List 2

blank, boy, car, chair, claim, close, fate, filter, foolish, hamlet, messy, money, nice, peaceful, pen, people, proud, safe, soil, square, street, tense, travel, trick, vow (25 words)


List 3

abandon, aboard, amuse, arrange, balcony, bandage, bank, beer, boulevard, border, detach, drug, duvet, espionage, float, franchise, gourmet, guardian, lodge, march, pledge, rank, seize, standard, troop (25 words)

Reinaert
16-01-11, 10:51
Well.. I try to..
My native tongue is Dutch.

Romanic:
abate, apology, cancel, cattle, caveat, customize, dispatch, endeavour, factory, genuine, grateful, issue, joke, office, picture, poor, quiet, rehearse, suitable, supply, ubiquitous

Germanic:
ban, cottage, council, price.

Dutch:
ban, kot(o), kansel(o), prijs.

(o) Means old words, not often used anymore.

Brett142
06-06-11, 05:43
Good post!

I think basic English is more Germanic whereas advanced English is almost 100% Romance.
I tested this theory, I got a couple of my friends who did not speak French or German to try and read them both - turns out they could understand a lot more French than German, although there was quite a bit of German they could understand (Ich habe - I have, eins zwei drei - one two three)

Leasnam
12-09-11, 21:36
Depends on what specifically you are referring to. For example, if you are referring to the entirety of the English lexicon, then it is more Romance. If you are referring to English core lexicon, grammar, and sound system, it is Germanic.

Also, Romance can, in part, be Germanic, especially when one is speaking of French, as there is a sizeable Germanic element in French.

So, if counting Germanic-Romance words as Germanic; and vice versa, here it is as follows:

Romance (Italic): abate, cancel, cattle, caveat, council, customize, dispatch, endeavour, factory, genuine, grate[ful], issue, joke, office, picture, poor, price, quiet, rehearse, suitable, supply, ubiquitous, claim, close, fate, fool[ish], mess[y], money, nice, peace[ful], pen, people, (proud), safe, square, street, tense, travel, vow

Germanic: ban, blank, boy, filter, ham[let], (proud), soil, trick, abandon, aboard, amuse, arrange, balcony, bandage, bank, beer, boulevard, border, [de]tach, drug, duvet, espionage, float, franchise, gourmet, guardian, lodge, march, pledge, rank, seize, standard, troop

Greek: apology, chair

Celtic: car

Taranis
12-11-11, 13:23
I've made a bit of an experiment here. Normally, I'm rather critical of the concept of Swadesh lists because they are used for the (decisively debunked) concept of glottochronology. However, in this context the use of a Swadesh list looked rather useful to make the point that despite having absorbed a substantial amount of Latin/Romance-derived terms, is still a Germanic language. In the list, words in brackets have changed meaning, and words that are bolded are actually Latin/Romance loanwords. The list includes three Latin/Romance loanwords, one which is found in both German and English. As you can also see below, there are a decisive number of shortfalls of the Swadesh list that become apparent. In particular, words which are no longer in active use of vocabulary, as well as have a shifted meaning, will screw up the list.


I "Ich"
You "Du"
we "Wir"
this "dies"
that "das"
who? "wer?"
what? "was?"
not "nicht"
all "alle"
many (archaic "mannig-", as in "mannigfaltig", 'manifold')
one "eins"
two "zwei"
big (no cognate but Germanic in origin, also possibly in the German river name "Bigge")
long "lang"
small ("schmal")
wife "Weib"
man "Mann"
person "Person" (Latin loanword in both languages)
fish "Fisch"
bird - Unknown origin
dog "Dogge" (see also English 'hound' versus German "Hund")
louse "Laus"
tree (no cognate in German, but Germanic)
seed "Saat"
leaf ("Laub")
root (no cognate in German, but Germanic)
bark ("Borke")
skin (archaic "Schinde")
flesh "Fleisch"
blood "Blut"
bone ("Gebein")
grease -> via French from Latin 'crassus' (but compare English "smear" vs. German "Schmiere")
egg "Ei"
horn "Horn"
tail (dialect "Zagel")
feather "Feder"
hair "Haar"
head "Haupt"
ear "Ohr"
eye "Auge"
nose "Nase"
mouth "Mund"
tooth "Zahn"
tongue "Zunge"
claw "Klaue"
foot "Fuß"
knee "Knie"
hand "Hand"
belly ("Balg")
neck ("Nacken")
breasts "Brüste"
heart "Herz"
liver "Leber"
drink "drinken"
eat "essen"
bite "beißen"
see "sehen"
hear "hören"
know (no cognate in German, but Germanic)
sleep "schlafen"
die (no cognate in German, but Germanic in etymology)
kill (no cognate but Germanic)
swim "schwimmen"
fly "fliegen"
walk ("walken" - to churn/mill)
come "kommen"
lie "liegen"
sit "sitzen"
stand ("Stand")
give "geben"
say "sagen"
sun "Sonne"
moon "Mond"
star "Stern"
water "Wasser"
rain "Regen"
stone "Stein"
sand "Sand"
earth "Erde"
cloud (no cognate but Germanic)
smoke (archaic "Schmauch")
fire "Feuer"
ashes "Asche"
burn "brennen"
path "Pfad"
mountain -> Latin "mons"
red "rot"
green "grün"
yellow "gelb"
white "weiß"
black (no cognate in German, but Germanic, however also compare English "swarthy" and German "schwarz")
night "Nacht"
hot "heiss"
cold "kalt"
full "voll"
new "neu"
good "gut"
round "rund"
dry "trocken"
name "Name"

So, my point is that I oppose Maciamo's view which is that English should be regarded as a Romance language due to it's extensive vocabulary. However, as you can see, the core vocabulary of the language is Germanic.

Tomenable
17-03-15, 01:00
Here is how Old English sounds like (compare to modern English, and check how much can you understand, if anything):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptp_v7chhm4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptp_v7chhm4

Melancon
17-03-15, 02:20
Here is how Old English sounds like (compare to modern English, and check how much can you understand, if anything):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptp_v7chhm4


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptp_v7chhm4Hm interesting it actually sounds like Frisian with a bit of Old Norse influence.

Tomenable
17-03-15, 18:13
Hm interesting it actually sounds like Frisian with a bit of Old Norse influence.

And probably that's why today you can still buy a nice fat brown cow in Friesland using Old English:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34

Angela
20-03-15, 16:20
English has certainly changed quite a bit since the Middle Ages. I didn't do my research carefully enough when I signed up for a course in medieval European literature. The professor made us learn how to read Chaucer in the original. I love Chaucer, but YIKES!:laughing:

This is the modern English of part of the Prologue of the lusty " Wife of Bath":

"Experience, though no authority
Were in this world, would be enough for me
To speak of woe that married life affords;
For since I was twelve years of age, my lords,
Thanks be to God eternally alive, 5
Of husbands at the church door I've had five
(If I have wed that often legally),
And all were worthy men in their degree.
But I was told not very long ago
That as but once did Jesus ever go 10
To a wedding (in Cana, Galilee),
By that example he was teaching me
That only once in life should I be wed.
And listen what a sharp word, too, was said
Beside a well by Jesus, God and man, 15
In a reproof of the Samaritan:
'Now you have had five husbands,' Jesus said,
'But he who has you now, I say instead,
Is not your husband.' That he said, no doubt,
But what he meant I haven't figured out; 20
For I must ask, why is it the fifth man
Wasn't husband to the Samaritan?
How many men was she allowed to wed?
In all my years I've never heard it said
Exactly how this number is defined; 25
Men may surmise and gloss how it's divined,
But I expressly know it's not a lie
God bade us to increase and multiply--
That noble text I well appreciate.
I also know the Lord said that my mate 30
Should leave for me his father and his mother,
But mentioned not one number or another,
Not bigamy nor yet octogamy.
Why should men speak, then, disapprovingly?"

This is what it sounds like as first written. (Of course, I always had my doubts they could be certain of precisely how it would have sounded, but I kept my doubts to myself.:grin: I'm no expert on English accents. Is there more of a similarity to the modern pronunciation in one area rather than another? Is there something Scandinavian there as well?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0ybnLRf3gU

A similar "accent" is used in Shakespearean English, but there were definitely changes since Chaucer's Day.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPlpphT7n9s

In general terms, I think it's clear that English is a Germanic language, but it is one that has received a large influx of words derived from French, and therefore originally from Latin. It has also developed independently enough that it is no longer mutually intelligible with German.

For those of an irreverent and humorous turn of mind..."The History of English in ten minutes":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9Tfbeqyu2U

Aberdeen
20-03-15, 17:46
I assume everyone knows the history of the English language and why it's a mixture of English and French, with loan words from other languages (mostly Latin and Greek). Prior to the invasion of England by the Norman French, English was a Germanic language and it had borrowed a few (but not many) words from the Celts who were there before the Germanic tribes came. But when William of Normandy conquered England, he and his people made French the language of government, the law courts and the upper class, although Latin was the language of the church. Over time, Old English, Norman French and Church Latin fused into modern English. And during the last two centuries, many words have been borrowed from Latin and Greece whenever new words were needed in the areas of science and technology. And that's how we got the mess that is modern English.

giuseppe rossi
20-03-15, 18:28
English language is about two thirds Romance and one third Germanic.

Albanian is also about 40-50% Latin-Romance.

Me, as an Italian, can understand quite a lot of written Albanian. It was quite a surprise to me.

But any Slavic language looks and sounds completely alien.

giuseppe rossi
22-03-15, 12:57
As I've said before the English language is about two thirds Romance and one third Germanic.

The only reason why it is considered as Germanic is that most of basic words, like conjunctions, prepositions,... are of Germanic origin.

And even those Germanic languages are not that different from Italo-Celtic ones.

http://i.imgur.com/LVZKhog.jpg

For info, an incomplete list of English words of direct Italian origin.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_of_Italian_origin

MOESAN
22-03-15, 23:29
Giuseppe, the english lexicon contains less germanoc words than other words but that said the germanic found is not so weak in it and in natural basic english the percentage of germanic words augments - it's not a revelation, other forumers already said this -

concerning ancient pronounciations, I think scot dialects (someones, in East and North-East more than others) and North England dialects are closer to old english than the standard modern english, spite not identical of course! -

very often when we speak of "english french" (or "french english"?) we speak of Normans french but we forget the subsequent Angevin french of the Plantagents, less 'germanic' than the anglo-normand stratum, so it countained more platalized K and G in it - all that roughly said,

Rethel
16-06-15, 11:59
It is very interesting thread.
I uderstand now, why creol languages are so nonsensical... http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/037.gif
Fusional languages are much more logical and superior.

Comparing anglosaxonic or even medieval english to present english and german,
I must say, that old slavonic from IX century is much more similar and understandable
do present day polish or russian. And their forms form XIV or XV century that is pice of
cake compare to THAT - they are almost like modern tongues :rolleyes2:

But Anglosaxonic is much more normal language than english.

Spanish: =>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xjMKXsCnsZo
Here I was shoked. The more easier word, then more problems they have!
I was allways considering latin, spanish and italian as languages with VERY simple phonetics.
But english-speaking people cannot do that! Now I know, why "english-latin" is so terrible... :laughing:

This is pretty funny: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUTTosdOQGA :laughing:

This names aren't really so terrible, only this people don't want pronauce enlgish
sounds or they dont want understand that (for examplne) in mostly european
languages w = v. It is really so difficult?

Warszawa = Varshava.
Every "a" like british Apple, or Arabia.

They were very lucky, that couple of oryginal sounds are lost in present polish. :laughing:
For example h, ł, ó, á, é, rz... even Poles cannot pronaunce them... maybe some villagers can :innocent:

Here: ==>>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUteMtNhe3g
IRISH. I thought that it will be very extreme, but it wasn't!
It is easy to pronaunce! :good_job: But ORTHOGRAPHY is TERRIBLE.
BUT old-Irish orthography was much worse, and they had to simplify her! :petrified:

Zeus10
16-06-15, 19:59
English language is about two thirds Romance and one third Germanic.

The English inventory of lexemes is more Latin than Germanic, but the vocabulary doesn't really represent the essence of a language.


Albanian is also about 40-50% Latin-Romance.

Me, as an Italian, can understand quite a lot of written Albanian. It was quite a surprise to me.

I would say a bit less like 30%, but most of them are not loans from Latin, but is quite the opposite. Latin representing a non-vernacular language was created from its creators based on the spoken language of the past, and the main one was :the Alban language of the ancient people of Rome, called Albanenses, which in my opinion nowadays Albanian nation dedicates its origin.

Rethel
16-06-15, 20:12
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AckzNzbF5E4

And this should be supposed an international language
when even native users have problems with him...?? :petrified:

http://emotikona.pl/emotikony/pic/2smiech.gif

mihaitzateo
28-06-15, 14:53
A language is told be in some group of languages based on the core words,words that are naming body parts,family members and so on.
English have lots of Romance origin words,but not in the core part.
EDIT:
Taranis forgot to compare the name of animals ,between Germanic and English language.
Here is a little comparison between Norwegian and English,animal names:
http://www.internetpolyglot.com/lesson-3902101010

mihaitzateo
28-06-15, 15:19
Here a very interesting comparison between West Frisian and English:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Frisian_languages#Comparison_of_West_Frisian_with_ English.2C_Dutch_and_German


West Frisian
English
Dutch
German


dei
day
dag
Tag


rein
rain
regen
Regen


wei
way
weg
Weg


neil
nail
nagel
Nagel


tsiis
cheese
kaas
Käse


tsjerke
church
kirk (Scotland)
kerk
Kirche


tegearre
together
samen
tezamen
zusammen


sibbe
sibling[note 1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Frisian_languages#cite_note-5)
sibbe
Sippe


kaai
key
sleutel
Schlüssel


ha west
have been
ben geweest
bin gewesen


twa skiep
two sheep
twee schapen
zwei Schafe


hawwe
have
hebben
haben


ús
us
ons
uns


hynder
horse
paard
ros (dated)
Ross / Pferd


brea
bread
brood
Brot


hier
hair
haar
Haar


ear
ear
oor
Ohr


doar
door
deur
Tür


grien
green
groen
Grün


swiet
sweet
zoet
süß


troch
through
door
durch


wiet
wet
nat
nass


each
eye
oog
Auge


dream
dream
droom
Traum


it giet oan
it goes on
het gaat door
es geht weiter/los





Here a small movie which shows that English is very closed to Frisian:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OeC1yAaWG34)

mihaitzateo
28-06-15, 15:32
Another thing,there are strong North Germanic influences in English in the sentence structure,which were clearly brought by Vikings in England:
English : This is what we have talked about.
Norwegian : Dette er hva vi har snakket om .
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121127094111.htm

mihaitzateo
09-07-15, 15:01
Here another example,which speaks for itself,about the fact that English and Dutch are very closed languages:
From "Vulgaris Magistralis" ,Heidevolk:
Ik kok mien potjen op een werkende vulkaan
I cook my meal on an active volcano.

Please note that the phrase structure is exactly same and some words are very closed.

Maciamo
09-07-15, 17:38
Here another example,which speaks for itself,about the fact that English and Dutch are very closed languages:
From "Vulgaris Magistralis" ,Heidevolk:
Ik kok mien potjen op een werkende vulkaan
I cook my meal on an active volcano.

Please note that the phrase structure is exactly same and some words are very closed.

I can give you plenty of examples with French too.

A group of lions devoured an antelope in the savannah. When they had finished, the rest of a carcass was assailed by vultures.
Un groupe de lion dévorèrent une antilope dans la savane. Quand ils eurent fini, le reste de la carcasse fut assailli par des vautours.

How much close does it get ? Actually having learned Dutch and German as well as Italian and Spanish (and being a native French speaker), I can tell you that English grammar and syntax are more Romance than Germanic.


In your example 'active volcano' are words that come from French (actif + volcan), not Dutch or Germanic languages.

mihaitzateo
11-07-15, 21:33
Yes,but basic words in English,which are used most of the times in folk languages are most closed to Frisian variant of Dutch.
I noticed that because I can speak English I can learn with ease basic sentences in Dutch.
And Frisian is even closer to English.

mihaitzateo
11-07-15, 21:43
Ok how about:
(Dutch)Jongens drinken water - (English) boys drink water
Where Jongens is cognate to younglings?

Or how about:
(Dutch) Wij hebben een boek - (English) we have a book

Or about:
(Dutch) Ik heb water - (English) I have water

Or about:
(Dutch) Hij heeft een appel - (English) He has an apple

Maciamo
12-07-15, 08:04
Ok how about:
(Dutch)Jongens drinken water - (English) boys drink water
Where Jongens is cognate to younglings?

Or how about:
(Dutch) Wij hebben een boek - (English) we have a book

Or about:
(Dutch) Ik heb water - (English) I have water

Or about:
(Dutch) Hij heeft een appel - (English) He has an apple

You can make up thousands of example sentences, some closer to Dutch, others closer to French, since English is a hybrid of Old Dutch/English and Old/Norman French. But the bottom line is that English vocabulary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_influence_in_English#Word_origins) has about twice more French or Latin roots (58%) than Germanic (26%) ones.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Origins_of_English_PieChart.svg/677px-Origins_of_English_PieChart.svg.png

When it comes to grammar, English was originally Germanic but has adopted Latin rules, such as avoiding to end sentences with a verb or preposition (although the latter is a personal choice depending on the speaker).

Vukodav
12-07-15, 16:56
Actually all Greek words and some Germanic words in English derived from Romance languages, since French and especially Italian have plenty of Germanic and Greek loanwords. So probably English derived from a Romance language for about 70%.

mihaitzateo
12-07-15, 18:18
If you take the basic words,from English,most of them are of West Germanic origins.
The basic words and the sonority are what are putting a language in a category.
If English is a Romance language,why French people and Italians and Spaniards can not pronounce right,in English?
While Dutch people pronounce without any problem almost all English words?
Also,Scandinavians are pronouncing very well,you can not distinguish a Scandinavian speaking English from a native Brit.
So,even if a lot of words from English were taken from a Romance language,the sonority of the language is still very West Germanic,more exactly Anglo-Frisian.
Slavs pronounce English well,compared to Romance people,you can really understand what they are speaking.
And Romanians are pronouncing English decent,because we do not have exactly a full Romance sonority at our language.
So,it does not matter from where most of the words are coming,it matters from where the basic words are and how the sonority used is.

Vukodav
12-07-15, 18:49
There is no "Romance sonority". Russians and Germans have a recognizable accent when they speak English.

mihaitzateo
12-07-15, 19:09
There is no "Romance sonority". Russians and Germans have a recognizable accent when they speak English.

Sure there is.
Italian have most pure Romance sonority.
Spanish is 2nd,3rd is Portuguese 4th is French,
See there are strong resemblances between English and Frisian,at sonority:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language


"English is classified as an Anglo-Frisian language because Frisian and English share other features, such as the palatalisation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization_%28sound_change%29) of consonants that were velar consonants in Proto-Germanic." (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#cite_note-FOOTNOTEK.C3.B6nigvan_der_Auwera1994-15)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palatalization_%28sound_change%29
That ,the palatalisation of consonants that were velar in Proto-Germanic is a thing related to sonority.

(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language#cite_note-FOOTNOTEK.C3.B6nigvan_der_Auwera1994-15)What you think,English people took for example from Normans,the word custom (from old French coustume,actually coutume).
However,please see how English people are pronouncing custom and how French people were pronouncing coustume...
English people are pronouncing this word as kʌstəm .
hear how it is pronounced here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/custom
While French people are pronouncing coutume as you can hear here:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coutume
I am sorry that Maciamo do not understands how a language is classified to belong to a group.

So English got a lot of words from French and Latin,however,as sonority,borrowed none from Latin and few from French.
Example of word borrowed from French which retained some of the French sonority:
pronounciation
But how many English people are using this word?

Vukodav
12-07-15, 20:38
You have no idea about what you are talking about. English is classified as a Germanic languages, because the core words are Germanic, but the bulk of its vocabulary is made up of Romance words. If we add the Greek words, then English is about 65% Romance and 25% Germanic.

Angela
12-07-15, 21:56
Kissinger came to America from Germany as a young boy. Despite speaking and writing very sophisticated, grammatically perfect English, he had a very strong German accent even after fifty years in this country.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=js5N5Vj15bs

Gianni Agnelli, who was educated partly in England, but always an Italian resident.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B9NxxQ-wyo0

mihaitzateo
12-07-15, 22:14
You have no idea about what you are talking about. English is classified as a Germanic languages, because the core words are Germanic, but the bulk of its vocabulary is made up of Romance words. If we add the Greek words, then English is about 65% Romance and 25% Germanic.

As I have already said,English is a Germanic language. The fact that lots of words are taken from Latin or French does not make English a Romance language.
Those words were adapted to Anglo-Frisian pronunciation/sonority.
I already gave a quote about some kind of typical sounds of English and Frisian.
If an Italian learns American English and start to talk with a strong American accent,than he will also talk Italian with an American accent.
So,the sonority of Italian is Romance.
For example Romanians who are living in Italy or Spain and speak most of the time Italian (or Spanish) do not have any weird accent,while talking in Romanian.
However,Romanians who are living in UK or US and speak most of the time English are having clearly a weird accent when speaking in Romanian.
That comes from the fact that the sounds from which English and Frisian words are comprised are different ,being typical to West Germanic languages.

Let me explain it in other way,if both English and Italian are taking a word from an exotic language,for a fruit,or so on,one is pronouncing the word in a way and another one,in a different way.
For example coffee.

mihaitzateo
12-07-15, 22:39
here 2 movies made by a native American English speaker,to see that the problem is not that simple as you think:
A Frisian native speaker can pronounced almost all weird sounds in English without problems,because he already use those sounds in his language.
A Dutch native speaker,is 2nd in pronouncing most English weird sounds,without problems.
I,as being native Romance (more exactly Romanian) speaker, I can pronounce any Italian word without any problems and a native Italian speaker will never notice I am not a native Italian speaker.
Here is how that is pronounced correct in different contexts:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7lrPxCXyN8

And here the simple coffee word,is to be pronounced:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HOs95VaKEkk

mihaitzateo
12-07-15, 22:56
Another thing,not all words taken in English from French Norman are Romance origin words.
Are Germanic words that were brought by Germanics (Franks mostly) in French and after,brought to English language from Norman French.
Have not study this thing,but French also has Gaulish origin words and someone would expect that some of the words brought in English from Norman French are of Gaulish origins.
So as you can see,this problem is very complex and for those interested in English,worth a lot of time,to study it.

mihaitzateo
12-07-15, 23:03
A link very on-topic:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_English_words_with_dual_French_and_Anglo-Saxon_variations
Maciamo,to know if a word is of French,Latin or Germanic origins,you just ask wikipedia or,google :) .

mihaitzateo
12-07-15, 23:08
A pretty large list of Norse (North Germanic) words in actual English:
http://www.babbel.com/magazine/139-norse-words

mihaitzateo
12-07-15, 23:22
Example of words of Frankish origins,taken into English from Old French (brought by Normans):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankish_language#Middle_English
random
standard
grape
stale
march

Angela
12-07-15, 23:51
As I have already said,English is a Germanic language. The fact that lots of words are taken from Latin or French does not make English a Romance language.
Those words were adapted to Anglo-Frisian pronunciation/sonority.
I already gave a quote about some kind of typical sounds of English and Frisian.
If an Italian learns American English and start to talk with a strong American accent,than he will also talk Italian with an American accent.
So,the sonority of Italian is Romance.
For example Romanians who are living in Italy or Spain and speak most of the time Italian (or Spanish) do not have any weird accent,while talking in Romanian.
However,Romanians who are living in UK or US and speak most of the time English are having clearly a weird accent when speaking in Romanian.
That comes from the fact that the sounds from which English and Frisian words are comprised are different ,being typical to West Germanic languages.

Let me explain it in other way,if both English and Italian are taking a word from an exotic language,for a fruit,or so on,one is pronouncing the word in a way and another one,in a different way.
For example coffee.


I haven't read every post, but I don't think anyone is saying that English is a Romance language. I think what they're trying to say is that it's usually placed among the Germanic languages because of grammar and some basic vocabulary, but that it has drifted far from those roots in the direction of the Romance languages, certainly in the area of vocabulary. All of this has been established by linguists, so I don't really understand what point you're trying to make here.

The relationship among the Romance languages is much closer than that between English and German. Even without studying each other's languages, Italian and Spanish speakers can get the gist of a movie scene or a song in the other language. With French, although the written language is very easy to decipher, spoken French is more challenging because there are more differences in pronunciation. Most Italians can't understand Romanian, although I had occasion to spend some time there once, and started to pick some of it up. The problem is not just the Slavic loan words.

The changes that occurred on the journey from German to English are much more profound. One problem, as has been explained to you many times, is that the majority of the English vocabulary is Latin based. The other has to do with changes in spelling and grammar.

I assure you that this is totally unintelligible to native English speakers:
"Beowulf in Anglo-Saxon

Hwæt! We Gardena in geardagum,
þeodcyninga, þrym gefrunon,
hu ða æþelingas ellen fremedon.
Oft Scyld Scefing sceaþena þreatum,
5 monegum mægþum, meodosetla ofteah,
egsode eorlas. Syððan ærest wearð
feasceaft funden, he þæs frofre gebad,
weox under wolcnum, weorðmyndum þah,
oðþæt him æghwylc þara ymbsittendra"


English speakers would have a much easier time reading French.

Chaucer's English is a little easier, but when I took a course in him people were still dropping like flies out of the course because it was too difficult. Also the pronunciation has greatly changed. English speakers can't understand this, but Italian speakers can understand a lot of Latin.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_K13GJkGvDw

No everyday English speaker can understand a movie in German. Picking out one word out of 20 does not equal mutual intelligibility. Yes, there are some sounds that a German speaker learning to speak English might be able to pick up easier than a Romance speaker, but there are many that he can't duplicate. Did you bother to listen to Henry Kissenger speak? At times he can become unintelligible. The same thing happens with some Slavic speakers.

Perhaps you're not aware of this because you're not a native English speaker yourself.


If an Italian learns American English and start to talk with a strong American accent,than he will also talk Italian with an American accent.

There are some linguists who hold that one can only speak one language perfectly. Sadly, that may be true. However, what you've just pointed out would also apply to a German who learns American English and has less and less contact with German. His German will acquire an "American" sound. The accents are not identical. If they were, Henry Kissinger wouldn't sound so foreign even after fifty to sixty years living in the U.S. Maybe you can't hear the differences because you're not a native English speaker.

Btw, because you can't hear your Romanian accent when you're speaking Italian doesn't mean native Italian speakers can't hear it, just as they can hear a Spanish accent. I'll grant you that it's less offensive to the ear than what Americans and Brits etc. produce.

mihaitzateo
15-07-15, 22:51
You should know that the studies are not telling same thing.
I already gave a link from wikipedia,showing that are dual words,in English,like beef/cow or mutton/sheep.
Sheep is Germanic word,mutton is Romance word taken from French.
No offense,but I do not know which Brit uses mutton instead of sheep .
So there are lots of words which are actually not used,in English and the real percentage of words borrowed from French and Latin,which are normally used is at maximum 40%.
But,a part of these words,more exactly some words taken from French ,are words of Germanic origins.
So if French have words of Germanic origins and these words were brought in English by Normans,I highly doubt that these Germanic words,brought through French in English can be included of words of Romance origins in English.
But I am not arguing still I do not want to impose my point of view to others.
If someone thinks that English is rather Romance,than Germanic,is his opinion.
I retain my opinion that English is much more Germanic than Romance.

Vukodav
16-07-15, 14:25
I may be wrong, but actually modern French has less Germanic loanwords than modern Italian. The German language, on the other hand, has so many French loanwords, which is not possible to say which language influenced more the other one.

Italic languages are very close to Celtic and especially Germanic ones. The latter has about 30% pre IE non Italo-Celtic words.

Indo-European "wheel-related" words, together with the current or most recent distribution of IE language branches (extinct language branches are in italics). Based on the delightful Fig. 4.2 of Anthony (2007), but with additions and changes discussed in the text.

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/indo-european-wheel-words21.gif

One example of an Indo-European family tree, based on Atkinson & Gray (2006)

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/family-tree-300x225.gif

RobertColumbia
16-07-15, 15:37
...

Indo-European "wheel-related" words, together with the current or most recent distribution of IE language branches (extinct language branches are in italics). Based on the delightful Fig. 4.2 of Anthony (2007), but with additions and changes discussed in the text.

http://armchairprehistory.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/indo-european-wheel-words21.gif

....

Many "wheel-related" words in modern English can clearly be mapped to a likely source in the chart above:
1) Cycle, cyclic, cyclical, wheel (via Grimm's Law)
2) Round, rotary, rotate, rotund, rotisserie (food that is cooked by spinning it on a wheel over a fire)
3) Axle, axis (a spinning top or planet spins on its axis)
4) Hub
5) Yoke

Vukodav
16-07-15, 15:53
The only Germanic "wheel-related" word which is not shared with Italic, is "wheel", which is of Indo-Iranian origin.

I do think that Italo-Celtic and Germanic languages differ only for the 30% pre-IE words in the latter. Otherwise they would be quite intelligible.

Taranis
16-07-15, 16:40
The only Germanic "wheel-related" word which is not shared with Italic, is "wheel", which is of Indo-Iranian origin.

What makes you think "wheel" is supposed to be of Indo-Iranic origin? Its clearly from PIE, and its native Germanic, modified by Grimm's Law (*kw > *hw). It is a direct cognate with Greek "kyklos" (κυκλος) and Hindi "chakra".

If you disregard English, you also have German "Rad", which is a cognate with Latin ("rota"), Celtic (Irish "roth", Welsh "rhod", Gaulish "roto-") and Hindi "ratha" (which means "chariot", however).

Also Gray & Atkinson's tree makes no sense: Celtic and Italic languages are closer to each other than Germanic (notably the assimilation of *p > *kw before another *kw). Likewise, Albanian being closer with Indo-Iranic makes no sense (Albanian, for example, does not obey to the *e, *o > *a or the *l~*r merger in Indo-Iranic).

Angela
16-07-15, 20:08
You should know that the studies are not telling same thing.
I already gave a link from wikipedia,showing that are dual words,in English,like beef/cow or mutton/sheep.
Sheep is Germanic word,mutton is Romance word taken from French.
No offense,but I do not know which Brit uses mutton instead of sheep .
So there are lots of words which are actually not used,in English and the real percentage of words borrowed from French and Latin,which are normally used is at maximum 40%.
But,a part of these words,more exactly some words taken from French ,are words of Germanic origins.
So if French have words of Germanic origins and these words were brought in English by Normans,I highly doubt that these Germanic words,brought through French in English can be included of words of Romance origins in English.
But I am not arguing still I do not want to impose my point of view to others.
If someone thinks that English is rather Romance,than Germanic,is his opinion.
I retain my opinion that English is much more Germanic than Romance.


I repeat...
I haven't read every post, but I don't think anyone is saying that English is a Romance language. I think what they're trying to say is that it's usually placed among the Germanic languages because of grammar and some basic vocabulary, but that it has drifted far from those roots in the direction of the Romance languages, certainly in the area of vocabulary.

No native English speaker would ever say they had sheep for dinner. Sheep is the word for the animal. Lamb is the meat of sheep under one year of age, and mutton is the meat of the adult sheep. You would never substitute one for the other. What happened is that the Germanic names for the barnyard animals were retained, but the words involved with cooking are from the French, presumably because those were the words used in the Castle or the manor where the cooking was done for the upper classes who for some centuries still exclusively used "Norman" French as their everyday language. The same thing happened with cow...the meat is "veal" or "beef", not cow meat.

Often, the more "elevated" the setting, or the more educated the person, the higher the percentage of French derived words.

These are just a few examples, with the German derived word first and then the French one.

ask/inquire
drink/beverage
fall/autumn
smell/odor
thinking/pensive

In certain situations and with certain kinds of people I might use the first versus the second.

That's not always the case, though; sometimes the different versions have just acquired different connotations.

mihaitzateo
18-07-15, 11:52
Most British-English speakers are using fall,most American English speakers are using autumn.
As for odor,never heard an American English speaker or a British English speaker to use it.
Same about pensive.
So I do not find normal to include these words,like odor or pensive in statistics,about how many English words are of Romance origins and how many are of Germanic origins.

If this thread is about words of Germanic or Romance origins in English an interesting word,is write.
Most Germanic languages are using a cognate to Romance language,for writing:
schreiben in German,schrijven in Dutch,skriva in Swedish,skrive in Danish/Norwegian,skrifa in Icelandic.
The origin of this verb is told to be ,on wikipedia
"from Proto-Germanic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language)*skrībaną (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Germanic/skr%C4%ABban%C4%85), a late borrowing from Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language) scrībō (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scribo#Latin) (“write”), ultimately from Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *skreyb (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/skreyb%CA%B0-)"
So this means that Proto-Germanic speakers had contact with Latin speakers.
A very weird thing is that English is the only Germanic language that is using instead write:
From Middle English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English_language) writen (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/writen#Middle_English), from Old English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language) wrītan (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/writan#Old_English) (“to incise, engrave, write, draw, bestow by writing”), from Proto-Germanic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language) *wrītaną (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Germanic/wr%C4%ABtan%C4%85) (“to carve, write”), from Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *wrey- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/wrey-&action=edit&redlink=1) (“to rip, tear”). Cognate with West Frisian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_language) write (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/write#West_Frisian) (“to wear by rubbing, rip, tear”), Dutch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language) wrijten (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wrijten#Dutch) (“to argue, quarrel”), Dutch rijten (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rijten#Dutch) (“to rip, tear”),Low German (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German_language) wrieten (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=wrieten&action=edit&redlink=1), rieten (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rieten#Low_German) (“to tear, split”), German reißen (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rei%C3%9Fen#German) (“to tear, rip”), Swedish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_language) rita (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rita#Swedish) (“to draw, design, delineate, model”), Icelandic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_language) rita (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rita#Icelandic) (“to cut, scratch, write”),German (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language) ritzen (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ritzen#German) (“to carve, scratch”).
Another thing,it seems that this word,write,refers at stone carving,while the word from other Germanic languages refer to write on paper. Germanic people were known for their rune stones so a more logic word for write is this from English.
So English preserved some Proto-Germanic words that other Germanic languages did not preserved.

Angela
18-07-15, 15:21
Most British-English speakers are using fall,most American English speakers are using autumn.
As for odor,never heard an American English speaker or a British English speaker to use it.
Same about pensive.
So I do not find normal to include these words,like odor or pensive in statistics,about how many English words are of Romance origins and how many are of Germanic origins.

If this thread is about words of Germanic or Romance origins in English an interesting word,is write.
Most Germanic languages are using a cognate to Romance language,for writing:
schreiben in German,schrijven in Dutch,skriva in Swedish,skrive in Danish/Norwegian,skrifa in Icelandic.
The origin of this verb is told to be ,on wikipedia
"from Proto-Germanic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language)*skrībaną (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Germanic/skr%C4%ABban%C4%85), a late borrowing from Latin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language) scrībō (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/scribo#Latin) (“write”), ultimately from Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *skreyb (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/skreyb%CA%B0-)"
So this means that Proto-Germanic speakers had contact with Latin speakers.
A very weird thing is that English is the only Germanic language that is using instead write:
From Middle English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_English_language) writen (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/writen#Middle_English), from Old English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English_language) wrītan (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/writan#Old_English) (“to incise, engrave, write, draw, bestow by writing”), from Proto-Germanic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Germanic_language) *wrītaną (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Germanic/wr%C4%ABtan%C4%85) (“to carve, write”), from Proto-Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *wrey- (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/wrey-&action=edit&redlink=1) (“to rip, tear”). Cognate with West Frisian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Frisian_language) write (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/write#West_Frisian) (“to wear by rubbing, rip, tear”), Dutch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_language) wrijten (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wrijten#Dutch) (“to argue, quarrel”), Dutch rijten (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rijten#Dutch) (“to rip, tear”),Low German (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_German_language) wrieten (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=wrieten&action=edit&redlink=1), rieten (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rieten#Low_German) (“to tear, split”), German reißen (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rei%C3%9Fen#German) (“to tear, rip”), Swedish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_language) rita (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rita#Swedish) (“to draw, design, delineate, model”), Icelandic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icelandic_language) rita (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rita#Icelandic) (“to cut, scratch, write”),German (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language) ritzen (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/ritzen#German) (“to carve, scratch”).
Another thing,it seems that this word,write,refers at stone carving,while the word from other Germanic languages refer to write on paper. Germanic people were known for their rune stones so a more logic word for write is this from English.
So English preserved some Proto-Germanic words that other Germanic languages did not preserved.

Detailed expositions about the derivation of individual English language words from German may be interesting in and of itself to certain people, but it's irrelevant to the topic of the post and as to whether the majority of the words in the English language derive from German or Latin/Romance languages. The question was answered by linguists who looked at the entire lexicon and who concluded that the majority of the vocabulary is not derived from German. It's pointless to argue about that fact.

I'm also afraid that what you, as a foreigner using the English language, may or may not have heard in the language of English speakers is also irrelevant. You obviously are not going to have had the exposure of a native speaker or someone who has lived in an English speaking country for decades. In addition, to be blunt, it depends on the class of the speaker and the situation. Someone who may not even have graduated from high school, watching football down at the bar, will not use the word pensive, even if he knows the meaning of it. He might not even use the word odor, although he will probably know the meaning. There is also a difference between the common "spoken" everyday English and written English, even the English of a newspaper, for example.

oriental
18-07-15, 20:37
There is 'colloquial' and slang talk and of course each generation create their 'code or secret' words to hide from their parents or school teachers. I read a book by black convict with a reputed IQ of 160 who was pimp and his book was titled with the 'Ice something'. He mentioned that many of the teenagers got their words from convicts who served time for a while and released. Most likely involved with marijuana and drugs. "Big time" was convict lingo even Dick Cheney used. Of course the computer introduced a lot of new words and things like wtf and lol came from the board technology. Technology such as telegraphs brought 'asap' it into business language as words were charged by the letters by telegraph.

RobertColumbia
19-07-15, 03:06
Detailed expositions about the derivation of individual English language words from German....The question was answered by linguists who looked at the entire lexicon and who concluded that the majority of the vocabulary is not derived from German. It's pointless to argue about that fact....

It may be worth mentioning that English does not itself derive from German, it derives from Proto-West Germanic, the common source of High German, Low German, and Dutch. There is a temptation to gloss over the details and say that English comes out of German, but that would actually be similar to claiming that Hungarian derives from Finnish or that Spanish is a derivative of Italian. Spanish is based on Latin, and Italian is also based on Latin.

mihaitzateo
19-07-15, 17:22
Well is not like that,English is derived from some kind of Germanic variant (Anglo-Frisian dialect),from which Frisian also derives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_English_language
It should be noticed a thing,Vikings speaking North Germanic did not attempt to change the language of English people.
However,Normans,even if genetically mostly Scandinavian people,already got Roman Empire-like behavior and massively shifted English language towards French,denationalizing English people.
If English people still have some dignity remained in them should throw at the garbage the Romance origin words that were brought by Normans and adopt instead words from Frisian.
Or they should do as Welsh,Scottish and Irish people are doing,when they learn their native Celtic languages,so they should learn Old English.
Scottish,Irish and Welsh people are learning their native Celtic languages,which are not tainted by Latin plague.
If you see such a bad economic situation in Greece,South Italy,Spain that is the result of "Latin culture".
France had the chance to be conquered by Franks,which were Germanic people,so this why they have such a better economy and culture and civilization compared to South Italy , Spain,Greece.

Angela
19-07-15, 18:22
It may be worth mentioning that English does not itself derive from German, it derives from Proto-West Germanic, the common source of High German, Low German, and Dutch. There is a temptation to gloss over the details and say that English comes out of German, but that would actually be similar to claiming that Hungarian derives from Finnish or that Spanish is a derivative of Italian. Spanish is based on Latin, and Italian is also based on Latin.

Good point, Robert.

RobertColumbia
19-07-15, 18:47
...
However,Normans,even if genetically mostly Scandinavian people,already got Roman Empire-like behavior and massively shifted English language towards French,denationalizing English people.
If English people still have some dignity remained in them should throw at the garbage the Romance origin words that were brought by Normans and adopt instead words from Frisian.
...
France had the chance to be conquered by Franks,which were Germanic people,so this why they have such a better economy and culture and civilization compared to South Italy , Spain,Greece.

Romance words and languages are not "garbage". They are of great value in communication, science, and history. Romance languages have great bodies of literature behind them and tie Europe to many areas of the Americas that speak Romance languages (Spanish, French, and Portuguese).

You might not personally care for Romance languages, and that's fine. There's a line, however, when it comes to bashing them.

Vukodav
19-07-15, 19:14
Well is not like that,English is derived from some kind of Germanic variant (Anglo-Frisian dialect),from which Frisian also derives.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_English_language
It should be noticed a thing,Vikings speaking North Germanic did not attempt to change the language of English people.
However,Normans,even if genetically mostly Scandinavian people,already got Roman Empire-like behavior and massively shifted English language towards French,denationalizing English people.
If English people still have some dignity remained in them should throw at the garbage the Romance origin words that were brought by Normans and adopt instead words from Frisian.
Or they should do as Welsh,Scottish and Irish people are doing,when they learn their native Celtic languages,so they should learn Old English.
Scottish,Irish and Welsh people are learning their native Celtic languages,which are not tainted by Latin plague.
If you see such a bad economic situation in Greece,South Italy,Spain that is the result of "Latin culture".
France had the chance to be conquered by Franks,which were Germanic people,so this why they have such a better economy and culture and civilization compared to South Italy , Spain,Greece.

I am quite sure that Pakistanis in London and Mexicans in Los Angeles will be glad to learn Frisian words. :laughing:

mihaitzateo
19-07-15, 20:02
I think what I have posted was not understood.
Is normal that current English language need to be kept as official language in Great Britain.
Because you can not change over night a language. And I do not know how willing Irish,Scottish and Welsh people would be to switch to Old English,as official language.
However,as Irish people are learning in parallel their Irish Celtic language,in school and use that language to also communicate between them,as Scots are also doing this,Welsh same,English people should also start to learn Old English and have it as parallel language.
Is called national pride and English people still have it. It was something similar in Finland,where Swedish was used as official language,a move of national awakening.
As for Angela giving me a warning,for no reason,I reported that she is abusing her admin powers,to Maciamo and Taranis.
I have not attacked anyone,as for the crimes of Roman Empire and the fact that it denationalized so many people (including Italic people,which were speaking other languages than Latin) and did so many genocides, those are well known.
Normans also did lots of crimes and abuses against native Celto-Anglo-Saxons people from England,Robin Hood is describing such crimes and is a very popular book in England.

Angela
19-07-15, 20:38
Calling other languages and cultures "garbage" is not acceptable.

As for the idea that England would go back to using "Old English", there is nil, zero, zilch chance of that happening. Next.

mihaitzateo
19-07-15, 21:05
Calling other languages and cultures "garbage" is not acceptable.

As for the idea that England would go back to using "Old English", there is nil, zero, zilch chance of that happening. Next.
I have not called other languages "garbage" I have said that English people could replace words of French origins that were brought by Normans by Frisian words. I have told that English people should dispose of those words. I do not see how is that an infraction.
Romanian language had a lot of Slavic origin words replaced with words taken from French,for example . I do not agree with removing of those words of Slavic origins from Romanian,but that is off-topic.
Very likely replacing the words of French origins,brought by Normans,will not happen soon.
As for study of Old English in England,we shall see about it,if will start or will not start,in England and US.
Please note that Harvard University already have and advanced course of Old English:
http://www.registrar.fas.harvard.edu/courses-exams/course-catalog/english-103i-advanced-old-english-anglo-saxons-home-new-course

RobertColumbia
19-07-15, 23:11
I have not called other languages "garbage" I have said that English people could replace words of French origins that were brought by Normans by Frisian words. I have told that English people should dispose of those words. I do not see how is that an infraction.
Romanian language had a lot of Slavic origin words replaced with words taken from French,for example . I do not agree with removing of those words of Slavic origins from Romanian,but that is off-topic....

Why is removing Romance words from English good while removing Slavic words from Romanian is not? I don't understand.

It is the nature of languages to borrow from each other. There are Celtic words in Spanish, Norse words in Finnish, Slavic words in German, and Uralic words in English. When does it become a problem? I don't want the Language Inquisition coming to down and telling me what words I may or may not use.

mihaitzateo
20-07-15, 05:29
Why is removing Romance words from English good while removing Slavic words from Romanian is not? I don't understand.

It is the nature of languages to borrow from each other. There are Celtic words in Spanish, Norse words in Finnish, Slavic words in German, and Uralic words in English. When does it become a problem? I don't want the Language Inquisition coming to down and telling me what words I may or may not use.

EDIT:
Removed most of the post,to not offend some members of the forum.
However,kept these few things I have not liked at Roman Empire and which I think no democratic state should follow:

I do not agree with this vision over Latin language,as some great language.
First,because people tend to neglect the genocides and atrocities that Romans did and portray these unhuman acts as some kind of glorious deeds.
Second,because Roman Empire was not behaving well with the average Roman citizens either,people of Latin blood,instead it was despising them and considering them some kind of half-idiots which could have been controlled with bread and circus(panem et circenses).
Third,because Roman Empire leaders were mostly mentally insane people,very thirsty after power and they were killing between them,just to get the power .
Please remember that Nero put fire to Rome,this is how mentally insane Roman Emperors were.
Fourth,because Roman Empire was using slavery ,even if you were a native Roman citizen,wealthy but you were commenting something that the Cezar would not like,you would have end up as slave,if not killed.
Fifth,because Roman Empire did not supported any kind of culture,was just a militaristic state,were paranoia was state politics and religion,they were seeing everywhere enemies.

So is just a very ironic fact that the some smart people associate Latin language with culture . Roman Empire had nothing to do with culture.
It was only about making everything for war. A militaristic state,lead by mentally insane people.This is what kind of state European Union should follow?
Today European Union states,including UK are having a very peaceful politics.
And we do not have anymore the despising of average people in European Union.

joeyc
20-07-15, 07:54
This dude seems to forget that Celts and AngloSaxons were bloody invaders too. The Britons should speak Neanderthal language. LOL

joeyc
20-07-15, 08:02
Well maybe you want to say that Spanish people,which are Celto-Iberian people,are speaking a Latin language,instead of a Celto-Iberian language?

Celtic languages are attested only in parts of modern Aragón (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arag%C3%B3n), Old Castile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Castile), and New Castile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Castile_(Spain)) in Spain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain). Don't listen to Maciamo, who is not even a scientist, and talks about Bronze Age "Proto-Celts" invading Western Europe in 2200 BC!

In Blue area where Celtic inscriptions were found mixed with Iberian, Vasconic and Latin ones.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Mapa_lleng%C3%BCes_paleohisp%C3%A0niques-ang.jpg

mihaitzateo
20-07-15, 09:40
Well go study Middle English and compare it to actual English.
If I am not wrong,Middle English got fewer words taken from French and Latin.
So,I think we had a Latinist current in UK,a few smart people thought that it would be nice to adopt more Romance words to English language.
And they imposed their point of view to others. Being smart is not hard to manipulate average people.

RobertColumbia
20-07-15, 16:36
Well go study Middle English and compare it to actual English.
If I am not wrong,Middle English got fewer words taken from French and Latin....

No, I have studied and can read Middle English, and it has about the same proportion of Germanic and Romance terms that Modern English does. But natheless, whil I have tyme and space, me thynketh it acordaunt to resoun to tell you that "actual English" existeth not as a wittable concept.

In fact, if you already know modern English well, learning to read Middle English is incredibly simple. You just need to learn some spelling and pronunciation rules, learn a handful of new characters (e.g. the runic Thorn that is used in some Middle English texts), and have a reference book on medieval concepts.

If you want a mostly-Romance free version of English, you are looking for Old English, i.e. the language of Beowulf. Good luck getting people to talk like that again. No, really, you're going to need that luck.

Милан М.
20-07-15, 16:46
EDIT:
Removed most of the post,to not offend some members of the forum.
However,kept these few things I have not liked at Roman Empire and which I think no democratic state should follow:

I do not agree with this vision over Latin language,as some great language.
First,because people tend to neglect the genocides and atrocities that Romans did and portray these unhuman acts as some kind of glorious deeds.
Second,because Roman Empire was not behaving well with the average Roman citizens either,people of Latin blood,instead it was despising them and considering them some kind of half-idiots which could have been controlled with bread and circus(panem et circenses).
Third,because Roman Empire leaders were mostly mentally insane people,very thirsty after power and they were killing between them,just to get the power .
Please remember that Nero put fire to Rome,this is how mentally insane Roman Emperors were.
Fourth,because Roman Empire was using slavery ,even if you were a native Roman citizen,wealthy but you were commenting something that the Cezar would not like,you would have end up as slave,if not killed.
Fifth,because Roman Empire did not supported any kind of culture,was just a militaristic state,were paranoia was state politics and religion,they were seeing everywhere enemies.

So is just a very ironic fact that the some smart people associate Latin language with culture . Roman Empire had nothing to do with culture.
It was only about making everything for war. A militaristic state,lead by mentally insane people.This is what kind of state European Union should follow?
Today European Union states,including UK are having a very peaceful politics.
And we do not have anymore the despising of average people in European Union.
Many Roman emperors were from different backround among them "Illyrians,Thracians,Syrians etc,so were the soldiers from different backround,Latin being lingua franca and official language,i have read some researches the same language never changed,which due to time happen to every language,would like to see some more researches if anyone know more on that,ethnicity wasn't same then and now,Roman was everyone that fought for Roman interests in opposite for "barbarians" Constantine the Great from Thraco-Illyrian" origin born in Naissus present day Serbia,made Constantinople new capital yet they called themselves Romans,even what we call Byzantine empire after fall of "Western Roman empire" was calling themselves Romans,the Greco-Roman ethnographers with names like Sarmatia,Magna Germania,Illyria whatever doesn't give us clear picture of ethnic origin of the same people,was they speaking one language,was they not...even "Barbarian" empires had their lingua franca.

RobertColumbia
20-07-15, 16:48
I agree,but many Roman emperors were from different backround among them "Illyrians,Thracians,Syrians etc,so were the soldiers from different backround,Latin being lingua franca and administrative language,i have read some researches the same language never changed,which due to time happen to every language,would like to see some more researches if anyone know more on that,ethnicity wasn't same then and now,Roman was everyone that fought for Roman interests in opposite for "barbarians" Constantine the Great from Thraco-Illyrian" origin born in Naissus present day Serbia,made Constantinople new capital yet they called themselves Romans,even what we call Byzantine empire after fall of "Western Roman empire" was calling themselves Romans,the Greco-Roman ethnographers with names like Sarmatia,Magna Germania,Illyria whatever doesn't give us clear picture of ethnic origin of the same people,was they speaking one language,was they not...even "Barbarian" empires had their lingua franca.

This shouldn't be surprising. Lots of Germans made their way to the US and became English-speaking Americans.

Angela
20-07-15, 16:52
EDIT:
Removed most of the post,to not offend some members of the forum.
However,kept these few things I have not liked at Roman Empire and which I think no democratic state should follow:

I do not agree with this vision over Latin language,as some great language.
First,because people tend to neglect the genocides and atrocities that Romans did and portray these unhuman acts as some kind of glorious deeds.
Second,because Roman Empire was not behaving well with the average Roman citizens either,people of Latin blood,instead it was despising them and considering them some kind of half-idiots which could have been controlled with bread and circus(panem et circenses).
Third,because Roman Empire leaders were mostly mentally insane people,very thirsty after power and they were killing between them,just to get the power .
Please remember that Nero put fire to Rome,this is how mentally insane Roman Emperors were.
Fourth,because Roman Empire was using slavery ,even if you were a native Roman citizen,wealthy but you were commenting something that the Cezar would not like,you would have end up as slave,if not killed.
Fifth,because Roman Empire did not supported any kind of culture,was just a militaristic state,were paranoia was state politics and religion,they were seeing everywhere enemies.

So is just a very ironic fact that the some smart people associate Latin language with culture . Roman Empire had nothing to do with culture.
It was only about making everything for war. A militaristic state,lead by mentally insane people.This is what kind of state European Union should follow?
Today European Union states,including UK are having a very peaceful politics.
And we do not have anymore the despising of average people in European Union.

Number one: the topic of this thread is "Is the English language more Romance or Germanic?". Your post is off topic. Let's try to stay somewhat on track.

Number two: even if it were a thread on ancient civilizations, posts like this will get the kind of response they deserve, which is to say, none. Perhaps you might want to pick up a text on this period of history. Absolutely any text would help. Just a suggestion.

RobertColumbia
20-07-15, 16:59
...
I do not agree with this vision over Latin language,as some great language.
First,because people tend to neglect the genocides and atrocities that Romans did and portray these unhuman acts as some kind of glorious deeds.
Second,because Roman Empire was not behaving well with the average Roman citizens either...
Third,because Roman Empire leaders were mostly mentally insane people,very thirsty after power and they were killing between them,just to get the power .
Please remember that Nero put fire to Rome,this is how mentally insane Roman Emperors were.
Fourth,because Roman Empire was using slavery....
Fifth,because Roman Empire did not supported any kind of culture,was just a militaristic state,were paranoia was state politics and religion,they were seeing everywhere enemies.

So is just a very ironic fact that the some smart people associate Latin language with culture . Roman Empire had nothing to do with culture.
It was only about making everything for war. A militaristic state,lead by mentally insane people.This is what kind of state European Union should follow?
Today European Union states,including UK are having a very peaceful politics.
And we do not have anymore the despising of average people in European Union.

By your logic, the German language should be discarded because of the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime. English should also be discarded due to the history of racial slavery in the USA. Say bye to Arabic because of the insane actions of Islamists. Danish is gone because of its association with Vikings, who were essentially pirates. Spanish was the primary language of many of the conquistadores who brutally enslaved many natives of California, Mesoamerica, and South America, so obviously we can't speak that either. Niall of the Nine Hostages used hostage-taking as a political leverage strategy, so obviously Irish is a terrible language. Russian is no good because of the example of rulers like Ivan the Terrible and also because of the brutal oppression that the USSR inflicted on dissidents.

So, mihaitzateo, what language can we speak that is untainted by social problems?

Angela
20-07-15, 17:11
By your logic, the German language should be discarded because of the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime. English should also be discarded due to the history of racial slavery in the USA. Say bye to Arabic because of the insane actions of Islamists. Danish is gone because of its association with Vikings, who were essentially pirates. Spanish was the primary language of many of the conquistadores who brutally enslaved many natives of California, Mesoamerica, and South America, so obviously we can't speak that either. Niall of the Nine Hostages used hostage-taking as a political leverage strategy, so obviously Irish is a terrible language. Russian is no good because of the example of rulers like Ivan the Terrible and also because of the brutal oppression that the USSR inflicted on dissidents.

So, mihaitzateo, what language can we speak that is untainted by social problems?

I was wrong. An intelligent response could be made to that post. You've just done it. Well done. (For some reason, the system won't let me give any more thumbs up today, otherwise I'd have given you one.)

I also had a giggle imagining Mexicans and South Asians, among others, trying to learn the English of Beowulf. :) Kudos to you, by the way. Chaucerian English was hard enough. I drew the line at Beowulf.

mihaitzateo
20-07-15, 17:37
Well Robert I must admit that you are right.
The Latin language and the Romance languages have nothing to do with what Roman Empire has done.
Neither French language has anything to do with Norman conquest.
I was upset on Latin language for no reason.
Thing is that I am also a native Romance speaker,cause Romanian as how grammar is and how sonority is ,is also mostly Romance language.
I just noticed that I have some kind of non-rational love towards Romanian,I guess is normal,because is my mother tongue.
I am just upset because I can learn very easy French and without effort Italian,but I learning German is not that easy,learning Dutch is even harder,same about Slavic languages.
I can speak quite well French and I understand French very good.

Drac II
20-07-15, 18:01
Celtic languages are attested only in parts of modern Aragón (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arag%C3%B3n), Old Castile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Castile), and New Castile (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Castile_(Spain)) in Spain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain). Don't listen to Maciamo, who is not even a scientist, and talks about Bronze Age "Proto-Celts" invading Western Europe in 2200 BC!

In Blue area where Celtic inscriptions were found mixed with Iberian, Vasconic and Latin ones.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/Mapa_lleng%C3%BCes_paleohisp%C3%A0niques-ang.jpg

That's only for Celtiberian, properly, it does not include the other Celtic or Celtic-related languages of other parts of Spain, like Gallaecian.

RobertColumbia
20-07-15, 18:01
...
Thing is that I am also a native Romance speaker,cause Romanian as how grammar is and how sonority is ,is also mostly Romance language.
I just noticed that I have some kind of non-rational love towards Romanian,I guess is normal,because is my mother tongue.
I am just upset because I can learn very easy French and without effort Italian,but I learning German is not that easy,learning Dutch is even harder,same about Slavic languages.
I can speak quite well French and I understand French very good.

It's perfectly normal to have an easier time learning languages that are closer to your native language. If you want to learn German, Dutch, or a Slavic language, the key to doing so is practice. Keep studying, read books, talk to people in that language, travel to areas where they speak that language, and don't give up. You can do it. You're already getting quite good at English, which is a Germanic language as you know. By learning English, you're mastering Germanic grammar which will help you immensely when it comes to German and Dutch.

Second thought - have you considered trying a Scandinavian language? They are Germanic but have a grammar that, in some ways, is more similar to English due to the large-scale Viking influence on English.

joeyc
20-07-15, 18:36
That's only for Celtiberian, properly, it does not include the other Celtic or Celtic-related languages of other parts of Spain, like Gallaecian.

The map shows the places where the languages were attested aka partial inscriptions in that languages have been found. Gallaecian has not been attested.

http://hesperia.ucm.es/en/mapa.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_scripts

Drac II
20-07-15, 19:25
The map shows the places where the languages were attested aka partial inscriptions in that languages have been found. Gallaecian has not been attested.

http://hesperia.ucm.es/en/mapa.php

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_scripts

It depends on what you mean by "attested". If it includes many surviving shorter inscriptions, then it has been "attested":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaecian_language

RobertColumbia
20-07-15, 19:30
It's perfectly normal to have an easier time learning languages that are closer to your native language. If you want to learn German, Dutch, or a Slavic language, the key to doing so is practice. Keep studying, read books, talk to people in that language, travel to areas where they speak that language, and don't give up. You can do it. You're already getting quite good at English, which is a Germanic language as you know. By learning English, you're mastering Germanic grammar which will help you immensely when it comes to German and Dutch....

I had an afterthought. If you're having difficulty staying motivated to learn German or Dutch, why not keep working on your English? The more you master English, the more you will be able to recognize where German and Dutch are similar to English and you will be that much closer to mastery when you go back to German or Dutch later. You will also get a boost because learning any language helps improve your brain and your logical thinking abilities. A brain that has been honed through extensive study of English is a brain that is going to find learning any other language easier, even Arabic, Japanese, or Sotho.

Most of us on this forum understand how hard it is. Truly, we do. But we know that the way to mastery is to keep going.

mihaitzateo
20-07-15, 19:35
I had an afterthought. If you're having difficulty staying motivated to learn German or Dutch, why not keep working on your English? The more you master English, the more you will be able to recognize where German and Dutch is similar to English and you will be that much closer to mastery when you go back to German or Dutch later. You will also get a boost because learning any language helps improve your brain and your logical thinking abilities. A brain that has been honed through extensive study of English is a brain that is going to find learning any other language easier, even Arabic, Japanese, or Sotho.

Most of us on this forum understand how hard it is. Truly, we do. But we know that the way to mastery is to keep going.

Scandinavian languages are for Romanians,3rd easy to learn,after Romance languages,English.
Because Scandinavian grammar is so closed to English and also have common features to Balkanic languages,like definite postponed article.
But learning Swedish/Norwegian after you know English is not hard at all,because how close grammar is.
Is a little more weird to have your ear hearing all those different words in Scandinavian.
On the other hand,Romanian ear can hear clearly the difference between German different sounds.
But German grammar is hard,even if you know English,for a Romanian.

Taranis
20-07-15, 19:38
It depends on what you mean by "attested". If it includes many surviving shorter inscriptions, then it has been "attested":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaecian_language

This might deserve a separate thread, but yes, Gallaecian is known mainly from short inscriptions and names from the Roman period, all written in the Latin alphabet. Before that, they were illiterate (unlike the Celtiberians to the east).

Drac II
20-07-15, 19:51
This might deserve a separate thread, but yes, Gallaecian is known mainly from short inscriptions and names from the Roman period, all written in the Latin alphabet. Before that, they were illiterate (unlike the Celtiberians to the east).

Indeed, it seems that literacy in this particular Celtic group came after contact with the Romans. The same can be said about some other Celtic languages, like Brittonic, which survives exclusively in inscriptions using Latin or Latin alphabet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Brittonic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_curse_tablets

joeyc
20-07-15, 20:04
It depends on what you mean by "attested". If it includes many surviving shorter inscriptions, then it has been "attested":

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallaecian_language

No the surviving corpus of Gallaecian is composed of isolated words and short sentences contained in local Latin inscriptions or glossed by classical authors, together with a number of names – anthroponyms, ethnonyms, theonyms, toponyms – contained in inscriptions.

joeyc
20-07-15, 20:09
Indeed, it seems that literacy in this particular Celtic group came after contact with the Romans. The same can be said about some other Celtic languages, like Brittonic, which survives exclusively in inscriptions using Latin or Latin alphabet:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Brittonic

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_curse_tablets

Nonsense. Whole inscriptions in Britonic have been found, while Gallaecian has been attested only by words and short phrases in Latin texts.

Drac II
21-07-15, 17:20
Nonsense. Whole inscriptions in Britonic have been found, while Gallaecian has been attested only by words and short phrases in Latin texts.

All of them in Latin too. So, no, it is not "nonsense".

Drac II
21-07-15, 17:27
No the surviving corpus of Gallaecian is composed of isolated words and short sentences contained in local Latin inscriptions or glossed by classical authors, together with a number of names – anthroponyms, ethnonyms, theonyms, toponyms – contained in inscriptions.

Once again, pretty much what has also survived of other Celtic languages that did not have their own script and only started to leave some inscriptions after the Latin script was borrowed.

RobertColumbia
22-07-15, 16:09
I repeat...
I haven't read every post, but I don't think anyone is saying that English is a Romance language. I think what they're trying to say is that it's usually placed among the Germanic languages because of grammar and some basic vocabulary, but that it has drifted far from those roots in the direction of the Romance languages, certainly in the area of vocabulary.

No native English speaker would ever say they had sheep for dinner....What happened is that the Germanic names for the barnyard animals were retained, but the words involved with cooking are from the French, presumably because those were the words used in the Castle or the manor where the cooking was done for the upper classes who for some centuries still exclusively used "Norman" French as their everyday language. The same thing happened with cow...the meat is "veal" or "beef", not cow meat.

Often, the more "elevated" the setting, or the more educated the person, the higher the percentage of French derived words.

These are just a few examples, with the German derived word first and then the French one.

ask/inquire
drink/beverage
fall/autumn
smell/odor
thinking/pensive
...

This is often seen in English noun/adjective pairings. The common noun is often a native Germanic word, while the associated adjective is Latin (or occasionally Greek)-derived.

Examples:

moon/lunar
sky/celestial
star/stellar (This applies both to literal and figurative meanings. A movie star's performance would generally be expected to be stellar. If it is not, then they are not really a movie star, are they?)
sun/solar
earth/terrestrial (or terran)
cloud/nebulous (but a native adjective, cloudy, also exists)
pig/porcine
dog/canine
ant/formic
whale/cetacean (Next time you need a whale to save Earth from a destructive space probe, remember your Germanic/Latin pairings and go straight to the Cetacean Institute.)
swan/cygnine
bird/avian
horse/equine
worm/vermian
steersman/cybernetic (cyberspace is literally an area that can be navigated)
brother/fraternal
sister/sororal
father/paternal
mother/maternal
child/infantile (but cf. Germanic "childish")
chest/pectoral
mouth/oral
eye/ocular (or optic)
back(of a person)/dorsal
tongue/lingual
neck/cervical
kidney/renal
brain/cerebral
blood/sanguine
finger/digital (digital calculations are those that you can make with your fingers, which are generally up or down, not halfways or sort-of-down-but-close-to-midways-maybe)
tooth/dental (clearly, the Germanic form is the same PIE root modified by Grimm's Law)
heart/cardiac (another obvious Grimm's law example - the native Germanic noun underwent it, and the adjective was borrowed much later)
freedom/libre (a recent loanword from Spanish to provide an appropriate adjective)
good/beneficial
praise/laudatory
king/royal (or regal)
day/diurnal
night/nocturnal
twilight/crepuscular
book/literary (also cf. the Greek-derived biblical)
edge/marginal
water/aquatic
ice/glacial
light/optical
sword/gladiatorial
town/urban
house/domestic

Angela
22-07-15, 18:09
This is often seen in English noun/adjective pairings. The common noun is often a native Germanic word, while the associated adjective is Latin (or occasionally Greek)-derived.

Examples:

moon/lunar
sky/celestial
star/stellar (This applies both to literal and figurative meanings. A movie star's performance would generally be expected to be stellar. If it is not, then they are not really a movie star, are they?)
sun/solar
earth/terrestrial (or terran)
cloud/nebulous (but a native adjective, cloudy, also exists)
pig/porcine
dog/canine
ant/formic
whale/cetacean (Next time you need a whale to save Earth from a destructive space probe, remember your Germanic/Latin pairings and go straight to the Cetacean Institute.)
swan/cygnine
bird/avian
horse/equine
worm/vermian
steersman/cybernetic (cyberspace is literally an area that can be navigated)
brother/fraternal
sister/sororal
father/paternal
mother/maternal
child/infantile (but cf. Germanic "childish")
chest/pectoral
mouth/oral
eye/ocular (or optic)
back(of a person)/dorsal
tongue/lingual
neck/cervical
kidney/renal
brain/cerebral
blood/sanguine
finger/digital (digital calculations are those that you can make with your fingers, which are generally up or down, not halfways or sort-of-down-but-close-to-midways-maybe)
tooth/dental (clearly, the Germanic form is the same PIE root modified by Grimm's Law)
heart/cardiac (another obvious Grimm's law example - the native Germanic noun underwent it, and the adjective was borrowed much later)
freedom/libre (a recent loanword from Spanish to provide an appropriate adjective)
good/beneficial
praise/laudatory
king/royal (or regal)
day/diurnal
night/nocturnal
twilight/crepuscular
book/literary (also cf. the Greek-derived biblical)
edge/marginal
water/aquatic
ice/glacial
light/optical
sword/gladiatorial
town/urban
house/domestic


That's indeed how it works. Not to belabor the obvious, but some of the adjectives are probably not commonly used down at the bar as, for example, words like nebulous or diurnal or sanguine. Others are common usage for everyone. You get your molars removed by an oral surgeon, not a mouth surgeon. Some of these have morphed into nouns, too. You go to an optician to get your glasses, not an eye-tician. :)

RobertColumbia
22-07-15, 20:38
That's indeed how it works. Not to belabor the obvious, but some of the adjectives are probably not commonly used down at the bar as, for example, words like nebulous or diurnal or sanguine. Others are common usage for everyone. You get your molars removed by an oral surgeon, not a mouth surgeon. Some of these have morphed into nouns, too. You go to an optician to get your glasses, not an eye-tician. :)

True, but I have found nebulous to be a fairly ordinary word, often used metaphorically to refer to ideas or plans that are not easy to understand or that are not as logical as they could have been.

Other occupational examples include a cardiac surgeon, who works on hearts, an aquatic coach, who coaches athletes engaged in water-related sports, an equine caretaker, who takes care of horses, and a domestic worker, who works in a house as e.g. a maid.

Formerly, many Germanic/Latin pairings were used in Chemistry, for example:

Iron/Ferric and Ferrous
Tin/Stannic
Gold/Auric
Silver/Argentic
Copper/Cupric

When I took Chemistry about 10-15 years ago in the USA, I was told that this usage was deprecated and that one should use the plain English noun, such as Iron, either alone or with an oxidation number if such number is relevant.

Old style: Ferric Oxide
New style: Iron(III) Oxide

Piro Ilir
23-07-15, 14:24
I think Germanic.

Alcuin
30-04-18, 03:46
The backbone of English is clearly Germanic, as has been mentioned, but there is indeed a huge percentage of French-derived vocabulary. I don't speak any languages other than English, but I do know I can often 'get the gist' of French texts, newspapers, etc because of these commonalities. French being a Romance tongue, this actually means I can pick out more from Spanish or Italian writings than German equivalents.

When verbalised, however, things are very different. I definitely think accents in Scandinavian languages, particularly Danish, are the most familiar sounding.

As Angela said, neither I nor anybody I know would be able to understand the original, Old English manuscript of Beowulf.

The huge change in our language in the Middle English period is incredibly fascinating though. Most people seem to take it as a given that the change occurred because French was 'foisted' on the poor, suppressed natives, but surely if that was the case we'd all speak French. I'd say it was more believable that the melding of Old English and Old French was more a product of increased migration, particularly after the Plantagenet ascension to the throne, and the gradual drift of Norman-descended Francophones into lower levels of English society - primogeniture can't benefit everyone, after all.

brick
30-04-18, 17:05
Germanic with a strong Romance influence

gandalf
01-05-19, 00:43
The everyday's english is certainly form germanic origin .
But when people say that a majority of the vocabulary is close to french , so come from latin ,
they forget that :
1) latin was very close to gaulish
2) gaulish was also spoken in England
So English as French could have a strong legacy form the gaulish language .

Korp
23-05-19, 18:30
Modern English is more Romantic.

Old and to degree Middle English certainly wasn't. Hence why certain older fashioned than modern dialects (of which rp is the least qualified to be called old) in the UK are compared to Germanic languages such as Norwegian by foreigners from such areas. A comparison an actual trained German linguist agreed to.

Ygorcs
23-05-19, 20:01
A Romance speaker here. English is definitely Germanic. It's the easiest non-Romance language for us all because of the profound French/Latin influence and because its grammar was mostly very simplified roughly in the same general direction that the Romance languages went (e.g. loss of all noun declensions, more strict SVO word order, some similar periphrastic verb tenses, etc.). But it still works and sounds like a Germanic language: the phonology, the structure of the morphology and syntax, the basic vocabulary (and that's what really matters 80% of the times) is mostly from the Germanic "core". Besides, a language's classification is never determined on the basis of general lexicon, or even of basic lexicon. There are languages that underwent profound "relexification" even in the very basic vocabulary, but they don't "switch" to another language family because of that. Their structure remains the same, the vocabulary is just much more flexible and changeable.

Duarte
23-05-19, 20:52
Watch this video by Canadian linguist Paul. He makes an excellent approach of theme of this thread:


https://youtu.be/2OynrY8JCDM

Angela
23-05-19, 20:55
By the time of Chaucer the English is intelligible. Yes, my professor, a sadist, made us read it in the original.
https://cindygurmann.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/img_57781.jpg


Beowulf? Absolutely not.

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/introductiontobeowulf-111117132518-phpapp01/95/introduction-to-beowulf-11-728.jpg?cb=1321536443

Duarte
23-05-19, 21:05
By the time of Chaucer the English is intelligible. Yes, my professor, a sadist, made us read it in the original.
https://cindygurmann.files.wordpress.com/2015/02/img_57781.jpg


Beowulf? Absolutely not.

https://image.slidesharecdn.com/introductiontobeowulf-111117132518-phpapp01/95/introduction-to-beowulf-11-728.jpg?cb=1321536443
I believe your suffering must have been similar to mine. I was obliged to read the Galician-Portuguese troubadour songs produced during the period from the end of the twelfth century to the middle of the fourteenth century in the literature classes of the second year of high school. An unforgettable torture. LOL.

Angela
23-05-19, 21:13
I believe your suffering must have been similar to mine. I was obliged to read the Galician-Portuguese troubadour songs produced during the period from the end of the twelfth century to the middle of the fourteenth century in the literature classes of the second year of high school. An unforgettable torture. LOL.

I hear you. :) It almost ruined Chaucer for me. I've since re-read him in "modern" English, and it was such a pleasure. I love his "voice": the wry, wise, witty, sensual personality which shines out in "The Canterbury Tales".

bigsnake49
24-05-19, 00:47
Same way I suffered through the Homer's epic tales, the Iliad and the Odyssey in the original. I could read Classical Greek with no problem. Homer I needed a dictionary.

bigsnake49
24-05-19, 00:54
BTW, I watched Stieg Larsson's film trilogy in the original Swedish. A lot of common Swedish/English words that I recognized on the fly.

Jensen
20-06-19, 09:59
English was a Danish dialect, later creoled by French. Yes, I mean to be provokative and hopefully funny, but listen:
English: The Helmsman said to them, that they should listen, grab the railing by their hands, and hold fast instead of talking, and also hoist the fore sail.
Danish: Hjælmsmanden sagde til dem, at de skulle lytte, gribe rælingen med deres hænder, og holde fast istedet for at tale, og også hejse for sejlet.
English: after that he took a stick, and goes out on the bowsprit to fish a flounder.
Danish: efter det tog han en stok, og går ud på bovsprydet for at fiske en flynder.

There is something about it, someone posted this link before. Interesting: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121127094111.htm

Jensen
20-06-19, 10:02
Same way I suffered through the Homer's epic tales, the Iliad and the Odyssey in the original. I could read Classical Greek with no problem. Homer I needed a dictionary. I read it in a Danish translation, it didnt make it much better. I couldnt understand half of it. Mostly because the descriptions and connotations were so alien. Im equally alianated by modern Brazilian poems, such as "Desafinado", and maybe because of the same reason. Alien connotations and symbolic images. Whereas I do understand those of Thomas Grey, Schiller and Goethe.

paul333
20-06-19, 21:03
I and some friends came out of a Danish Nightclub in Arhus, some years ago, and whilst we were talking among ourselves, a couple of locals came over to us, and said we thought you were speaking Dannish, as our broad accents are from the North East of England. He could not believe we were English as some of our sounds, and phrases we were using, were exactly the same as he was using. Most people from my area, speak very fast among friends, but then have to talk completely different and slower, to other's from different area's.

hrvclv
21-06-19, 01:17
English was a Danish dialect, later creoled by French. Yes, I mean to be provokative and hopefully funny, but listen:
English: The Helmsman said to them, that they should listen, grab the railing by their hands, and hold fast instead of talking, and also hoist the fore sail.
Danish: Hjælmsmanden sagde til dem, at de skulle lytte, gribe rælingen med deres hænder, og holde fast istedet for at tale, og også hejse for sejlet.
English: after that he took a stick, and goes out on the bowsprit to fish a flounder.
Danish: efter det tog han en stok, og går ud på bovsprydet for at fiske en flynder.

There is something about it, someone posted this link before. Interesting: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/11/121127094111.htm

Or... English is a French dialect, in which some remnants of Danish survived.

English : The choice of specific phrases traduces an evident desire on the part of Jensen to present English as a Danish dialect.
French : Le choix de phrases spécifiques traduit un désir évident de la part de Jensen de présenter l'anglais comme un dialecte danois.

Just kidding, of course. My real feeling is that for all the vocab it inherited from French, English remains essentially Germanic, particularly in its spoken forms. Most of the English words instantly identified by French speakers in script will go unrecognized when the said script is read out loud to them. The very different patterns of stressing make for most of the difficulty we Frenchies have with oral English. Besides, most of the words used in everyday basic conversation are Germanic in origin - unlike those polysyllabic words, essentially Romance, you find in scientific papers.

spruithean
21-06-19, 01:56
Both the Danish examples and French examples are relatively understandable, though the French one is easier to understand. But that's probably due to Canadian curriculum. English is still pretty "Germanic" but it definitely has a lot of outside influences.

Davidtab
12-07-19, 12:03
Duarte:
"Ondas do mar de Vigo, se vistes meu amigo,
ondas do mar levado, se vistes meu amado"

Hahahaha... I had to read them as well. But I enjoyed them, beautiful ancient verses from the time Galician and Portuguese were the same language (I believe they still are).

paul333
13-07-19, 16:01
Old English was verbally based, Beowulf, etc was mostly recited by bards, as with most, Old English was the sound, and voice of the illiterate.
To translate these sounds into writing is nigh on impossible, without hearing the dialects in which they were heard. Most of the surviving early manuscripts were written by educated Monks etc who understood Latin, which they mostly translated.

Today it will be impossible to understand the full understanding of these old English records unless you hear how they were originally spoken, many of the old records and Anglo Saxon words are understandable if they are spoken in the right enviroment, or regions, where dialects still retain and recognise many sounds and meanings which are seeminly unfamiliar to people outside of the area, same with the early translations, Shakespear uses a middle English Dialect I believe, but even he at that time would have difficulty understanding a lot of the Accents further North or away from his area.

An example of a similar problem is todays subtitles, They are not recording what is actually spoken, they reflect the writers understanding of what is being said and heard, and often much is missed, just as the early Anglo Saxon translations no doubt had been effected by the Latin educated Monks who mainly were the ones doing the translating, and interpretations.

The English Language is more Germanic, but English itself needs to be understood, to understand this

Another prime example is the wording on the famous 'Alfred jewel' Translated by academics as 'Alfred ordered me to be made' but where I live in the North East of England, we still use the very similar sounds it seems to state, which gives a very different meaning to, AElfred Mec Heht Gewyrcan .

In my dialect Heht and Gewyrcan, are similar to our todays use of Hed/Het, Worken/Wirken. ( 'Ge' of gewyrcan as used today in modern German, is silent in English now ) which translates in my dialect as ' Alfred had me working". We still use a long 'A' sound, as in the 'AE' of AElfred/Alfred and 'en' for ing etc, these are just two of thousands of dialect differences we have.
,
A very different translation from the recognised statement. Although it is very difficult for me to translate my sounds, they are identical/recognisable as the very same sounds as Heht , and Wyrcan, Heaht/Hed/Het (had )Worken/Wirken ( working ). If you heard me say that phrase you would imediately recognise they are the same.

This reads to me, "Alfred had me working", meaning the jewel/Aestle itself was made to work, ie point to read, or write, as in teaching etc. ie 'had me working' would mean exactly that.

The Jewel,s purpose supports exactly that, as used in reading,teaching, or writing, and at least in my own opinion was not meant to read ' Alfred had me made'. Although he orderd his bishops to receive them, this may be his personal one due to where it was found and his associated history there at the time. If this view was accepted it would represent, a more realistic voice from the past,from Alfred and I believe this is why it was made.

If he had ordered it to be 'made' In my opinion it would of used a word such as Macht/Macken, modern German Made/Makes, to reflect this, as Gewyrcan means to work , and use. its not a static term. In my dialect these would be Mak/Maken/Mad, not Make/Making/Made.

It then would possibly of read, AELFRED MEC HEHT MACHEN/MACHT, or the similar A/S regional word for Made/make.

Incidently the more I look at the image on the Aelfred Jewel. I believe he could be holding two complete Aestels, as they look like ties with bows, ( shoelace knots ), rather in my opinion mistakenly, in the form of Blossening branches. They could either way both, indicate meaning spreading, teaching learning, and may actually depict the image of Alfred himself, Anglo Saxon artwork nearly always had hidden meanings )

Even today for me an Englishman, I have to write English very differently, and it is very different to what and the way I speak, this is because of our UK education system.

italouruguayan
14-07-19, 05:00
I think that if a compatriot of mine, who only knows the Spanish language, is given to read texts in Portuguese, Italian, French and English, most likely he understands almost all the Portuguese text, much less of the Italian text, less even of the French text ... but of the English text, except for a few words of Latin origin (many with different meanings than in Spanish), he would understand almost nothing ...

paul333
14-07-19, 16:27
I think that if a compatriot of mine, who only knows the Spanish language, is given to read texts in Portuguese, Italian, French and English, most likely he understands almost all the Portuguese text, much less of the Italian text, less even of the French text ... but of the English text, except for a few words of Latin origin (many with different meanings than in Spanish), he would understand almost nothing ...

Ive just updated my comment above, but even some southern English cannot understand Northern English etc, due to the strong dialects...lol.

I was working in Maidstone down in Kent, and most locals could not understand me. I had to completely change the way I talked, and had to talk slowly and change many actual words and sounds, in order to be understood. There was a Scot working there, and he had no problem, but when we talked normal speed together, the locals could hardly understand a word.

English is Germanic, but is strongly influenced by Dialects, from later further Scandinavian influences in the North etc, and this is more reflected in local dialects, than the standard English today. Standard English today, is very very different to localised regional English use, which retains much of its original Germanic forms.

14-07-19, 18:13
Paul333: excellent posts. The following is a question about some family research I’m doing . . . As a northern speaker, how do you pronounce the name of the town of Heysham, in Lancashire?

paul333
14-07-19, 19:18
Paul333: excellent posts. The following is a question about some family research I’m doing . . . As a northern speaker, how do you pronounce the name of the town of Heysham, in Lancashire?


looking at the writing I would say Haeshem, the ae would sound like a drawn out/long A.

its hard to put sounds into words but thats the nearest I could get to how I would describe how It sounds would be Haes Hame. Hey would sound more closer to Hae/Haay/hay, Heys could be interpreted as Haes, therefore it could be 'Haes' 'hame/yame'. possible home of a man called Haes, even a shortening of Heastein/Hastein a possible viking surname, which would fit lancashire.

My dialect is from an ancient area of Northumbria, Eastern County Durham, know known as 'Mackem', by those North of us, and 'Yakker' by those South of us. Another description is Pitmatic, related to the coal mining . Locally it can even be subdivided to specific area,s as was the case during the not too distant 'Jack the Ripper hoax', which identified a part of our accent, down to a very small area in Sunderland. ( re - Wearside Jack 1978/9 )

Regarding Accents. There is a very distinct break and remarkable difference of dialects in my area which could be due to an ancient viking division of lands here in 918AD. In a matter of a Mile or So the accents are completely different, and relate from the very area of that division. This is partly believed to of been through Olaf Ball ( Onlafball )a Viking who divided the area between Olaf ( possibly Guthfrithson )and Scula in AD 918. The difference is very marked from this ancient boundry of the Castle Eden Dene, Beck. Olaf the North to the river Wear, and Scula the south to the river Tees.

It is very important, to hear the local accents and dialects spoken, if you really want, or need to understand English, as it is within these Local dialects and speech, that still retains its oldest Germanic forms.

England has many different counties, each with very different dialects, and within each of these counties, there are many localised differences. Standard Educating English, in other words 'Newspaper English', is miles away, and very distant from Local English, much of which still today you can hear its original Germanic root, dialects, and accents.

If you type in Google 'Death of a dialect, Raymond Reed', and you can hear some old Northumbrian,but even he has to talk slowly and different in order to record it, if he spoke normal it would be quick and very different but it gives you an idea, especially about the long 'A' sound. He really starts about 5.40, but if you compare it against Standard English you will see where our accent came from.

14-07-19, 19:23
Thanks. I believe the inhabitants say hee-sham, but neither that or your version support my private theory (which I won’t bore you with).

paul333
14-07-19, 22:27
Thanks. I believe the inhabitants say hee-sham, but neither that or your version support my private theory (which I won’t bore you with).

Ive updated my post with a link for google, regarding the differences from Northumbrian to Standard English, and Accents etc at the bottom.

Regarding your theory, my views are only my opinion, and they may be totally wrong. Stick with it, it may be the right one.

The accents around Heysham will probably be very different from mine.

Its a shame, but these accents etc which will have been handed down by 'parents to children', verbally, and in unbroken link, from more than 1500 years ago, are soon set to dissapear forever within only a few generations from now.

15-07-19, 03:14
Paul333: Thanks again, you've been very helpful and given me new avenues to investigate.

kostop
19-07-19, 10:18
You can make up thousands of example sentences, some closer to Dutch, others closer to French, since English is a hybrid of Old Dutch/English and Old/Norman French. But the bottom line is that English vocabulary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_influence_in_English#Word_origins) has about twice more French or Latin roots (58%) than Germanic (26%) ones.

This is true. However, the "function words" (the most common words used to communicate basic things) in the English language are still predominantly Germanic.

Farstar
19-07-19, 15:17
There are some linguists who hold that one can only speak one language perfectly. Sadly, that may be true.

I am absolutely bilingual in Catalan and Spanish.

brittney.smith
21-07-19, 11:24
I think basic English is more Germanic whereas advanced English is almost 100% Romance.

Covkid
13-09-19, 20:26
If you look at an English dictionary only 25% of the words might be AngloSaxon, while in any conversation down the pub, 70% of common words will be AngloSaxon. French or Latin words are softer while AS is harsher, think Finish versus HALT or Stop.
I read that if you look at Churchill's speeches during the war are mostly in As, they appeal to the heart.... we shall fight them on the beaches, etc.... the only French word in this is 'surrender'.