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spongetaro
19-01-11, 19:09
I think that I2a represents the indigenous population of the island.
The high frequency of G2a in Sardinia suggests massive settlement of people belonging to a culture historically linked to G2a people.

The Sherden were a tribe among the Sea people. Some says they originated from Sardis in western anatolia where G2a frequencies re quite high and eventually gave their name to the island of Sardinia.

how yes no 2
19-01-11, 20:05
I think that I2a represents the indigenous population of the island.
The high frequency of G2a in Sardinia suggests massive settlement of people belonging to a culture historically linked to G2a people.

The Sherden were a tribe among the Sea people. Some says they originated from Sardis in western anatolia where G2a frequencies re quite high and eventually gave their name to the island of Sardinia.

interesting idea.... though I have somewhat different viewpoint...

is there some historic data that relates people of Sardinia with town Sardis in Asia minor?

spongetaro
19-01-11, 20:45
interesting idea.... though I have somewhat different viewpoint...

is there some historic data that relates people of Sardinia with town Sardis in Asia minor?


There are unfortunately no historic data linking the two. it's just a reconstruction based on the name. Like some Historians have linked other Sea people to Historic culture:
*the toushah and the Etruscan
*the peleset and the philistins

spongetaro
19-01-11, 20:49
In the Bible the Philistin are said to have come from Kaptor (crete). It has been proven that Goliath was a Greek name and some Mycenae pottery related were found in Philistin age sites. Peleset gave Philistin and eventually Palestine. It might also be linked with Pelasges (pre-greek inhabitant of the Agean sea, present in Greece according to Homer)

how yes no 2
19-01-11, 21:47
In the Bible the Philistin are said to have come from Kaptor (crete). It has been proven that Goliath was a Greek name and some Mycenae pottery related were found in Philistin age sites. Peleset gave Philistin and eventually Palestine. It might also be linked with Pelasges (pre-greek inhabitant of the Agean sea, present in Greece according to Homer)

Pelasgians lived on Crete, that is known... Pelast does sound as derived from Pelasgians and it leads logically to tribal name Palestines/Philistines...

is there any data about genetics of Palestinians?


I think that I2a represents the indigenous population of the island.
The high frequency of G2a in Sardinia suggests massive settlement of people belonging to a culture historically linked to G2a people.

The Sherden were a tribe among the Sea people. Some says they originated from Sardis in western anatolia where G2a frequencies re quite high and eventually gave their name to the island of Sardinia.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Map_of_Lydia_ancient_times.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif


Lydia (area of Asia minor whose capital was Sardis) also shows strong I2..it is quite possible that I2a1 developed in part of Lydia and was spread from there to Sardinia....btw. genetics of Sardinia might as well be partially related to Etruscans (e.g. it could have happened that they have migrated to Sardinia during all the invasions of their lands).. it is known that Etruscans did leave Lydia in times of 18 year long hunger...

Herodotus wrote in his work "The Histories"
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html



The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.


In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscans



so why assuming that G came from there and that I2a1 did not?


btw. biggest genetic trace is usually left by most recent settlers....note that there is rather recent potential wave of G haplogroup that settled Sardinia....Alans

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Alani_map.jpg


speaking of Sherdana...


The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al , one of the string of "Bitter Lakes" to the east of the Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
The [B]term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_peoples

now, Sardinians are I2a1 and Serbs are I2a2....
this taken together with Serbonian/Sherdana link, indicates that root of tribal names Sherdana, Serbs, Sardinians is obviously the same...
but this clue still does not really solve the puzzle as there are several scenarios possible...

also note link to Etruscans.... Etruscans called themselves Rasena, Serbs called themselves Rasani...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ra%C5%A1ka_(state)
...

spongetaro
20-01-11, 08:27
Lydia (area of Asia minor whose capital was Sardis) also shows strong I2..it is quite possible that I2a1 developed in part of Lydia and was spread from there to Sardinia...
...


Haplogroup I M26 is found only is the western mediterannean sea, Iberia, parts of western France and the British island. It can't be Serbian or even Lydian.
Then, there is only between 5% and 15% of I2a in Lydia. So between 85% and 95% of the Lydians do not carry I2A. Mny of them wuld have been J2 and there is almost no J2 in Sardinia.

I M26 is clearly a marker of the atlantic bronze age. To me it is the nuraghic culture of Sardinia.




For the Sherden, a Serbian origin doesn't explain G2A presence. Then I don't see why the SEA people would have originated from a NON COASTAL land like Serbia. Sea people were clearly technology advantaged (bronze weapon, ship...). So the Sherden would have come from a technologically advanced area (not in Western Europe), with access to sea and from a G2A Hotspot. I finally think that they do not come from Lydia but rather a land east of the Black sea, in present day Georgia.

how yes no 2
20-01-11, 20:27
Haplogroup I M26 is found only is the western mediterannean sea, Iberia, parts of western France and the British island. It can't be Serbian or even Lydian.
I was not clear I guess...

I do not say it is Serbian, but that it is related in sense that I2a1 typical for Sardinians, and I2a2 typical for Serbs both come from same I2a branch... the split have happened long time ago, but root of tribal name seems to be the same...


Then, there is only between 5% and 15% of I2a in Lydia. So between 85% and 95% of the Lydians do not carry I2A. Mny of them wuld have been J2 and there is almost no J2 in Sardinia.
pay attention that we talk about periods few thousand years in past and that frequencies of haplogroups change when people move and others settle... with known history of frequent wars on this planet, it is very naive to assume that current spread equals one from e.g. 3200 years ago (which was roughly the time of sea peoples)...

5% to 15% of I2a2 now in Lydia might have been much more 3200 years ago...


I M26 is clearly a marker of the atlantic bronze age. To me it is the nuraghic culture of Sardinia.
I agree that I2a1 might have been one of the key markers of atlantic bronze age...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Atlantic_Bronze_Age.gif

but how can you be so sure, and why would that exclude it from being marker of Sherden?



For the Sherden, a Serbian origin doesn't explain G2A presence.
why do you assume that Sherden were G2a people? If they were from Sardinia and if I2a1 is marker of Atlantic bronze age that would imply that they were I2a1, while G2a would be later arrival (e.g. Alans, but also perhaps Etruscans pushed from continental Italy)


Then I don't see why the SEA people would have originated from a NON COASTAL land like Serbia.
I was talking about I2a2 as mark of proto-Serbs, not neceserilly about people from Serbia.... reason I allowed myself to talk that way is that Seneca talks about people named Serians who live:
1) in arc from India to China,
2) in northwest China producing silk
3) in Caspian mountains (which is location of tribe Serboi)
4) in Europe where they rule over scattered Scythians (R1a)
5) on shores of Red sea

now, if I use genetics to search for Serians, I would be able to recognize hotspot in northwest China and arc from China to India, and presence in Europe, and presence in Caspian highlands....now that is what only haplogroup I provides me with...

haplogroup I in Asia matches location of Serboi/Siraces, it makes an arc from China to India (today big part of this arc are Pashtun Sarbans), is there in northwest China...

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png


Sea people were clearly technology advantaged (bronze weapon, ship...). So the Sherden would have come from a technologically advanced area (not in Western Europe), with access to sea and from a G2A Hotspot.
why from G2a spot? you do realize that there can be many waves of people of different origin who settle any location...
second, link between Sardinia and Sherden is never proven...that theory is completely based on two things: similarity of names (same you have with Serbs as Serbonian bog is named after Sherden) and by idea that Sherden are sea peoples and that thus should be searched along coast ... it is good theory...but sea peoples were also massive land invasion, not only sea invasion... which makes me hard to be convinced that they came from Sardinia...they might have had related colony there though...


I finally think that they do not come from Lydia but rather a land east of the Black sea, in present day Georgia.
If you make it shores of Caspian sea, you have there Serboi tribe and lot of I2a2...or Serians in Seneca's work, or what I call proto-Serbs

if you keep assumption that they came from Black sea area you still have there Siraces, which are considered to be same as Serboi

both Serboi and Siraces locations do match elevated I2a2 areas...

how yes no 2
20-01-11, 21:25
btw. even though I agree that I2a1 is not due to Vandals, but much earlier arrival, I would like to hear arguments why, instead of being classified as marker of Atlantic bronze age, is I2a2 not due to Vandals...

I ask this because I can imagine that biggest genetic imprint on Sardinia is left by last settlers: Alans and Vandals... now Alans were G2a (which doesnot mean all G2a in Sardinia origins from them, but it is hard to guess what amount does), why would not Germanic Vandals be I2a1?
I can name 3 reasons that convinced me:
1) lack of I2a1 in east Germany/Poland where Vandals lived before
2) lack of correlation between Vandals settlement and I2a map given by Maciamo on this web site
3) Sardinia fitting well into what I call haplogroup I tribal name pattern (Swedes, Suebi, Serbs, Sarbans (Pasthun tribe), Sardinians...) btw. Sherden fits well this pattern too...

haplogroup tribal name pattern comes from idea that once long time ago people of same haplkogroup were same race or same tribe and carried same name that was latter (due to influence of taking over different languages) transformed in similar names....

spongetaro
21-01-11, 12:32
haplogroup tribal name pattern comes from idea that once long time ago people of same haplkogroup were same race or same tribe and carried same name that was latter (due to influence of taking over different languages) transformed in similar names....


But sometimes there are huge differences between the original name and a place derived from this name. Burgundy region in France is named after the Burgundians who originated themselves and took their name from the Bornholm island in the Baltic sea. Today there is almost no features in common between inhabitants of the Bornholm island and those of Burgundy France

spongetaro
21-01-11, 12:41
why from G2a spot? you do realize that there can be many waves of people of different origin who settle any location...
second, link between Sardinia and Sherden is never proven...that theory is completely based on two things: similarity of names (same you have with Serbs as Serbonian bog is named after Sherden) and by idea that Sherden are sea peoples and that thus should be searched along coast ... it is good theory...



It would be very odd that Sardinia was settled by numerous waves of G2A people but almost no EM81 and J2 while being close to northern Africa and Italy.




but sea peoples were also massive land invasion, not only sea invasion... which makes me hard to be convinced that they came from Sardinia...they might have had related colony there though...



I never said that the Sherden came Sardinia. I said that until the late bronze age, the Sardinian inhabitants were almost all I M26 like the ancients people of Atlantic bronze age (before IE invasion) and that a tribe called the Sherden, that had NAVAL battles with egypt among other sea people, settled later in Sardinia after being defeated by the Pharao's armies

spongetaro
21-01-11, 12:51
why do you assume that Sherden were G2a people? If they were from Sardinia and if I2a1 is marker of Atlantic bronze age that would imply that they were I2a1, while G2a would be later arrival (e.g. Alans, but also perhaps Etruscans pushed from continental Italy)




G2a linked with the etruscan doesn't explain why G2A frequencies are higher in southern Italy that in Northern Italy. Though it can be linked with Rhaete people of the Alps.

I already said that the Sherden gave their name to sardinia but didn't originated from there. Like the peleset gave their name to Palestine and originated from Crete.
We know that Sherden were sea people and technology advanced. Only the Black sea shores cultures were both technology advanced (bronze weapon) and next to sea. They can't be from the Levant because there is few J2 in Sardinia. They can't be from I M26 Land cause those people had not efficient bronze weapon.

To me G2A is clearly carried by a sea people from the Black sea shores.
This sea people is called Sherden

how yes no 2
21-01-11, 19:42
It would be very odd that Sardinia was settled by numerous waves of G2A people but almost no EM81 and J2 while being close to northern Africa and Italy.
Alans were most likely G2a...and Alans (and Vandals) are the last wave that settled in Sardinia which means they likely made huge genetic impact...However, Alans being major genetic influence and G2a carriers still doesnot tell us about how numerous was G2a before....

In Italy and Swiss you can see that G2a correlates fairly well with Etruscans and Etruscan related people, as it is known that some of them moved from Italy to Swiss....

so, you have 2 clear sources of G2a settling Sardinia and close proximity of Sardinia .....while Sherden as source of G2a is only far fetched assumption based on assumed connection between Sardinia and Sherden which is based on linguistic similarity... besides haplogroup of Sherden is unknown...

your reasoning sounds a bit as:
Sherden is G2a => Sherden G2a is on Sardinia
G2a of Sardinia is Sherden => Sherden are G2a.....

there is circular dependency in that kind of reasoning..


I never said that the Sherden came Sardinia. I said that until the late bronze age, the Sardinian inhabitants were almost all I M26 like the ancients people of Atlantic bronze age (before IE invasion) and that a tribe called the Sherden, that had NAVAL battles with egypt among other sea people, settled later in Sardinia after being defeated by the Pharao's armies

ok, but this is new theory than.... as all relations between Sherden and Sardinia I've seen so far were with assumption that Sherden attacked Egypt from Sardinia....

Atlantic bronze age is clearly not about single haplogroup as those are people wiith different cultures.... I2a1 could have been one of the key markers of that culture...but it could have been that with Sherden related name too...
thing is you do not know tribal names from Atlantic bronze age....

although your theory is interesting one, contrary to what you claim, there is nothing clear there - as G2a in Sardinia can easily be due to Etruscan and Alans, and as I2a1 people could have carried tribal name Sherden and still be part of Atlantic bronze age...

how yes no 2
21-01-11, 19:53
G2a linked with the etruscan doesn't explain why G2A frequencies are higher in southern Italy that in Northern Italy. Though it can be linked with Rhaete people of the Alps.

do you know what happens when there is brutal invasion of until than unknown people...locations of attacked tribes move somewhat away from war zone or conquered zone....

in this case people who originate from Etruscans moved towards south and on islands when they were attacked from north" first by Celtic people and much later by many numerous Germanic tribes...logically population was seeking refuge in south and on nearby islands...

you can see same thing in Balkan where with advance of Ottoman armies Serbs position moved somewhat north and west, and Croats as well north and west on islands... that is why there were wars recently, as during Ottoman rule Serbs lost majority in Kosovo, while still see it as their historic and cultural basis, and Croats lost majority in area of Austro-Hungarian military frontier while they still saw that area as their historic basis....


I already said that the Sherden gave their name to sardinia but didn't originated from there. Like the peleset gave their name to Palestine and originated from Crete.
please quote the source for Sherden giving name to Sardinia and not originating there.... that is not a fact, it is assumption, made by you...

let's suppose Sherden were from Black sea area...that still does not make them G2a, as they could have easily been I2a, J2, R1b, R1a, E...


We know that Sherden were sea people and technology advanced. Only the Black sea shores cultures were both technology advanced (bronze weapon) and next to sea.
ok, this sounds as bit better explanation....

They can't be from the Levant because there is few J2 in Sardinia. They can't be from I M26 Land cause those people had not efficient bronze weapon.

you make finite conclusions based on assumptions that likely do not hold...
we do not know whether Sherden have ever settled Sardinia, and even if they did their genetic imprint might have been minimal and not visible anymore... they could have easily been J2 (btw. I saw on other thread that you push G2a as Aryans as well, but Aryans likely were dominantly J2)


To me G2A is clearly carried by a sea people from the Black sea shores.
This sea people is called Sherden

sorry, but it is not clear at all...
it is one of possible scenarios....
you need much more arguments to make it clear...

how yes no 2
21-01-11, 20:07
But sometimes there are huge differences between the original name and a place derived from this name. Burgundy region in France is named after the Burgundians who originated themselves and took their name from the Bornholm island in the Baltic sea. Today there is almost no features in common between inhabitants of the Bornholm island and those of Burgundy France
true,so name Sardinia might be completely unrelated to tribal groups that were ancestors of today G2a and I2a1 spreads in Sardinia....

Alan
12-11-12, 22:59
A Documentation which does also connect Sherdana with Sardinians.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNEkdxwo34s

MOESAN
12-11-12, 23:33
I keep a distant eye on this thread:
Thanks for the document
I think someones do too quickly conclusions about the presenc eog Y-G2 in Sardinia: the evidence seams that Y-G has a complicated story in Europe and that we need deeper knowledge of SNP's according to places before going too hastly to theories making - Y-G2 or 2 differents subgroups of it can having reached Sardinia in 2 different times: a neolithic one, with male agricultors and more recent times with "Sea People" and other anatolian (geographically) people - Etruscans (not sure), and Shardana (I always believed Shardana ha Sardinian were from the same ethnic name) - but even speaking about Shardana, their participation into the war against Egypt is not the absolute proof they were not yet settled in sardinia before that time, even if a prefer personally the thesis of a late enough arrival in Sardinia - it 's very interesting and frustating at the same time by lack of detaild enough data - here as in other questions, we have to wait a little yet;

Alan
12-11-12, 23:47
I keep a distant eye on this thread:
Thanks for the document
I think someones do too quickly conclusions about the presenc eog Y-G2 in Sardinia: the evidence seams that Y-G has a complicated story in Europe and that we need deeper knowledge of SNP's according to places before going too hastly to theories making - Y-G2 or 2 differents subgroups of it can having reached Sardinia in 2 different times: a neolithic one, with male agricultors and more recent times with "Sea People" and other anatolian (geographically) people - Etruscans (not sure), and Shardana (I always believed Shardana ha Sardinian were from the same ethnic name) - but even speaking about Shardana, their participation into the war against Egypt is not the absolute proof they were not yet settled in sardinia before that time, even if a prefer personally the thesis of a late enough arrival in Sardinia - it 's very interesting and frustating at the same time by lack of detaild enough data - here as in other questions, we have to wait a little yet;

The ethnic name Sardinia might originated from Sherdana but the people of Sardinia for most part are most probably remands of the early Neolithic farmers. As we know today, during Neolithic Bulgaria was populated by Sardinian like people (but most similar to other Neolithic farmers of Sweden and Spain). those Sardinian like farmers were replaced or mixed with people who have to be strong in West Asian component since this component is very recent on the Balkans. The appearance of stronger North European component can be explained with expansion of Slavs but we have no other explanation for the appearance of West Asian component after the Neolithic.

In my opinion the earliest Farmers leaving the Near East to settle in Europe were mostly Mediterranean (Sardinian like) people from Southeastern Anatolia-Levant. And than during late Neolithic-Bronze Age a second wave (Proto-Indoeuropeans?) brought the West Asian component. This is the only conclusion I get to.

Yetos
12-11-12, 23:48
What the author does not see or show us is the city of ΑΒΑΡΙΣ (avaris-abaris)

if you search Avaris city you will see that it was a Minoan colony before Hyksos.

Now many times I said that Pelasgians = Thyrrenians = Etruscans, probably = Hattians
Sardinia was inhabited by Thyrrenians

Documantation is wrong about timing,

Avaris was a minoan colony, upon which Hyksos build their capital, and bring the Israelites as slaves,

so it is certain that avaris had Aegean population non Israelitic,

and the simmilarity is not only in Sardinia -Sherdana
but
1. Sardinia - Sherdana
2 Falisti -Phillistines - Pleset- Pelasgians
3 Troyans - (E)Truscans
4 Thera - Thyrrenians

except the common toponymes of Hat(h)
Hatria
Hattica
Hatwurat
Hatussa
etc

MOESAN
13-11-12, 16:44
The ethnic name Sardinia might originated from Sherdana but the people of Sardinia for most part are most probably remands of the early Neolithic farmers. As we know today, during Neolithic Bulgaria was populated by Sardinian like people (but most similar to other Neolithic farmers of Sweden and Spain). those Sardinian like farmers were replaced or mixed with people who have to be strong in West Asian component since this component is very recent on the Balkans. The appearance of stronger North European component can be explained with expansion of Slavs but we have no other explanation for the appearance of West Asian component after the Neolithic.

In my opinion the earliest Farmers leaving the Near East to settle in Europe were mostly Mediterranean (Sardinian like) people from Southeastern Anatolia-Levant. And than during late Neolithic-Bronze Age a second wave (Proto-Indoeuropeans?) brought the West Asian component. This is the only conclusion I get to.

I agree with you about Sardinia/Sherdana naming of the island - the known name bearers can, as in a lot of other places, be carried there by a late enough arrival of dominant people - concerning the other parts of your post, I have no sound opinion : I wrote it was difficult to determine the different waves and their respective weight because even with an autosomal "sketche" of the population, we can't be sure than a componant was not carried there by more than a (cultural/etnic) wave, more than a time, cause a lot of colonizators came from the same geographical areas or from someones very close... by exception, here, the Y and mt Hg deeply studied could give us more accurate answers for different waves of same source.
I'm not sure of nothing here; I bet just that the majority of autosomals of Sardinians came there at Mesolithic times and NOT at Neolithic times (but neolithic could have brought some of them too), but it's just a bet - more than a scenario is possible?
all the way, the 'west-asian component' is somehow distinct from the 'gedrosian' one (concerning the I-E link)- I 'll try to study better the different poolings of autosomals proposed for today populations and the FEW pre-bronze people autosomals we have (almost nothing!) in Europe
good afternoon!

MOESAN
13-11-12, 16:57
Vey often I feel uneasy when using cultural stage names because we give them some chronological value and that is confusing: in another thread I spoke about a survey affirming that a sort of second mesolithic (culturally speaking) wave moved westwards in Europe between say - 6000/4000 BC as "swept away" by the advance of the true neolithic farmers or breeders. time: neolithic according to eastern criteria - culture: mesolithic! the problem: 3 different bets concerning the geographic ultime source!
and a lot of cultures of S-France in Eneolithic (late) was the result of very few mix of genes but acculturation of mesolithic population - and yet, with variants or depth for crossing and culture in a lot of places!

Alan
14-11-12, 02:42
I agree with you about Sardinia/Sherdana naming of the island - the known name bearers can, as in a lot of other places, be carried there by a late enough arrival of dominant people - concerning the other parts of your post, I have no sound opinion : I wrote it was difficult to determine the different waves and their respective weight because even with an autosomal "sketche" of the population, we can't be sure than a componant was not carried there by more than a (cultural/etnic) wave, more than a time, cause a lot of colonizators came from the same geographical areas or from someones very close... by exception, here, the Y and mt Hg deeply studied could give us more accurate answers for different waves of same source.
I'm not sure of nothing here; I bet just that the majority of autosomals of Sardinians came there at Mesolithic times and NOT at Neolithic times (but neolithic could have brought some of them too), but it's just a bet - more than a scenario is possible?



I understand what you mean but we know from Neolithic and Mesolithic samples that only the farmers are predominantly Mediterranean and the Hunter and Gatherers are North European like. So I dont believ we can assume that this component reached Europe during Mesolthic.

The thing is that Europe lacks West Asian like admixture till the Bronze age.




[/all the way, the 'west-asian component' is somehow distinct from the 'gedrosian' one (concerning the I-E link)- I 'll try to study better the different poolings of autosomals proposed for today populations and the FEW pre-bronze people autosomals we have (almost nothing!) in Europe
good afternoon!


Actually Gedrosia is much more similar to the original West Asian component than Caucasus. Dienekes did break up of the components on his blog.

Gedrosia/Caucasus are jsut two parts of the West Asian component. And the Gedrosia component seems more West Asian like than Caucasus.


Here is Dienekes break up of the components.


5759


Gedrosia is 90% West Asian + 10% ANI South Asian
Caucasus is 55% West Asian + 40% Southern and 5% Atlantic Baltic.

http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2012/09/inter-relationships-between-dodecad-k7b.html


have a good night.

ElHorsto
14-11-12, 13:11
I understand what you mean but we know from Neolithic and Mesolithic samples that only the farmers are predominantly Mediterranean and the Hunter and Gatherers are North European like.


What you probably mean is not North_European but Atlantic_Baltic. If I remember correctly, the hunter-gatherer from La Brana was only half North_European and half Atlantic_Med (K12b). Only the Ajv samples from Sweden are mostly North_european, but they are not so relevant since they were found very far in the north-east already. But even they already had some Atlantic_med admixture (approx. 10-20 %). I'm not saying that Atlantic_Baltic is false, just that it seems to me less of a pure component than North_european.



So I dont believ we can assume that this component reached Europe during Mesolthic.


Based on the agruments above I'd argue that earlier mesolithic southern/mediterranean admixtures in southern and western hunter-gatherers are not so unlikely.

MOESAN
17-11-12, 20:07
What you probably mean is not North_European but Atlantic_Baltic. If I remember correctly, the hunter-gatherer from La Brana was only half North_European and half Atlantic_Med (K12b). Only the Ajv samples from Sweden are mostly North_european, but they are not so relevant since they were found very far in the north-east already. But even they already had some Atlantic_med admixture (approx. 10-20 %). I'm not saying that Atlantic_Baltic is false, just that it seems to me less of a pure component than North_european.

Based on the agruments above I'd argue that earlier mesolithic southern/mediterranean admixtures in southern and western hunter-gatherers are not so unlikely.

I agree with you: everyone has his arguments here:
but as you I noitice some 'mediterranean' (not too well defined) componant among hunters-gatherers of far Sweden, even if light, and heavier among the one of Spain (so, before neolithic!) - I note too what I consider as marks of "archaïc' remnant from Asia and Africa among the swede hunter-gatherers!!! maybe the african part was mixed with a sub-componant of 'mediterranean'? (mesolithic?) -
concerning the problem of lack or 'west-asian' among the swede farmer I think that farming was introduced in Scandinavia as on other European shores (Atlantic for the most) by 'long-barrows-' akin people (atlantic neolithic, inspired by cardial maybe but creating their own culture after , not the continental danubian neolithic where I see Y-G2 associated to Y-E1b-V13, at first - and, leaved apart the problem of boosting elite, I think that these megalithers beared a lot of 'mediterranean', and no 'west-asian' -
all that if the so called H-G-s was not yet crossed with some neolithic females... but the %s seam showing that it would have been old, what I don't believe...

Knovas
18-11-12, 15:01
The Mediterranean clusters are the most remote one's overall according to Dienekes', so concerning West Eurasia they are the best defined among all.

There you are from the latest Globe13 analysis: http://dodecad.blogspot.com.es/2012/10/globe13-participant-results.html

Bra1 already shows 25% of this component. I know the SNPs tested are very low, but this isn't exactly what I would call a minor component. So in my opinion it's likely that the so called Mediterranean component was already present in Southwest Europe during the Mesolithic, and who knows if also along the rest of Southern Europe.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012/10/assessment-of-ancient-european-dna-with.html

MOESAN
18-11-12, 15:22
The Mediterranean clusters are the most remote one's overall according to Dienekes', so concerning West Eurasia they are the best defined among all.

There you are from the latest Globe13 analysis: http://dodecad.blogspot.com.es/2012/10/globe13-participant-results.html

Bra1 already shows 25% of this component. I know the SNPs tested are very low, but this isn't exactly what I would call a minor component. So in my opinion it's likely that the so called Mediterranean component was already present in Southwest Europe during the Mesolithic, and who knows if also along the rest of Southern Europe.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com.es/2012/10/assessment-of-ancient-european-dna-with.html

I agree concerning elderness 'mediter' in Europe, before neolithic introduction (maybe the "second mesolithic", rather than the "first mesolithic"?: two candidates for the first mesolithic: a paleolithic conitnuity + an early mesolithic introduction from East, yet) -
for the definition of 'mediterranean' you can see, reading the link you send me (thanks) that according to the branching 'systhem', respective positions of 'mediter', 'west-asian', 'south-west-asian' and 'north-european' are not so clear -
I would be glad if I could knew how these branchings are made concerning phylology, aside the geographic aspect (I suppose it is difficult)-

ElHorsto
18-11-12, 17:14
A related article:
"Anthropologist suggests Mediterranean islands inhabited much earlier than thought"

http://phys.org/news/2012-11-anthropologist-mediterranean-islands-inhabited-earlier.html

So basically it claims that pre-neolithic humans were able to travel by sea to mediterranean islands.

(found at Dienekes Blog)

ElHorsto
18-11-12, 17:16
I meant only the first part of the article, because the second part subjects pre-Homo-Sapiens.

Knovas
18-11-12, 19:04
Moesan, it's clear when you check the Fst distances spreadsheet: the Mediterranean cluster is the most distant from both inner Africa and East Asia (including Oceania). That's why in the picture the rest of components seem to deviate from it.

What we can see is:
- Noth European is more African and East Asian shifted compared to Mediterranean.
- Southwest Asian is more African shifted compared to Mediterranean and North European.
- West Asian is more African and East Asian shitfted compared to Mediterranean. At the same time, this component is more African shifted than North European (being similar regarding Asia), and more Asian shifted than Southwest Asian (being similar regarding Africa).

That's a good summary overall I think.

ElHorsto
18-11-12, 21:02
- Noth European is more African and East Asian shifted compared to Mediterranean.


I'm not an expert, but I don't see African shift in North European:
North European deviates towards Amerindian (~East Asian), yes, but not African. By aligning a straight line between Mediterranean and Amerindian you will see that North European is placed at this line and even a bit more shifted to the left. But if NE would be African shifted, it would appear right from this line. By euclidean measures it seems closer to African, but that's only because Amerindian has similar Y-position like African, not X-position. If I understood these eigenvectors(?) correctly, then absolute distances alone can be misleading if deviation-vectors are not regarded.

Knovas
18-11-12, 21:10
The picture shows a general trend, but to see the exact distances you have to use this: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0ArAJcY18g2GadF9CLUJnTUdSbkVJaDR2UkRtUE9ka UE#gid=3

That's what I referred, and it's clear that Mediterranean is less African, even if not significantly. Dienekes' blogged about this before, I think I posted the comment in another thread, and he admitted that the Mediterranean related clusters were the most remote ones, even concerning African ancestry.

Yetos
18-11-12, 23:42
El horsto in this forum I read somewhere that in North Europe exist NWest African mtDNA which pass from an Atlantic road. I don't think that these female population went there recently.

ElHorsto
19-11-12, 00:19
El horsto in this forum I read somewhere that in North Europe exist NWest African mtDNA which pass from an Atlantic road. I don't think that these female population went there recently.

Yes, I know, and it should affect both, North-European and Mediterranean components. After all, both components are almost similarly distant from african components. Still, it is too early to conclude that these components (e.g. NE) are based on African admixture. African admixture has been shown as extra component in both Bra1 and Ajv. As far as I know, Fst-distances do not distinguish between similarity by admixtures and similarity by drift. However, thanks Knovas for clarifying by providing the Fst-table.

Knovas
19-11-12, 15:06
Fst-distances do not distinguish between similarity by admixtures and similarity by drift.
They do. If you check the Southwest Asian component compared to Mediterranean, you'll see the former is more distant than the later concerrning East Asian groups, even when in the picture Southwest Asian could look closer. Imagine that we add more "Asian" to the so called Southwest Asian, and the component would cluster West Asian in the picture. So the distances reflect things how really are.


However, there you are what Dienekes blogged, which is very ilustrative and expalins why some admixtures did not affected this kind of components (or did it in a lesser degree):

As for the African/Sub-Saharan components, they tend to be closer to the Southwest Asian/Red Sea components, not the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med one.

The Mediterranean components appear to be the most remote ones overall (also evidenced by the fact that Basques and Sardinians nearly always form the peak in the West/East Eurasian/African triangle), which makes sense since the region where the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med component is modal is most remote from both Africa and Asia along the land migration routes.

Knovas
19-11-12, 15:45
By the way, the North African MtDNA mentioned above refers to U6 subclades. It's true that U6 in North Africa is likely Mesolithic and even Paleolithic in age there, but this in my opinion reflects the ancient fingerprints of Cro-Magnons, so it had nothing to do with African ancestry at first. We don't know if U6 came from North Africa being already mixed with some sort of African, or if U6 in Europe represents minor Paleolithic remnants among other maternal lines, such as U5 for instance. All possibilities are open.

ElHorsto
19-11-12, 18:05
By the way, the North African MtDNA mentioned above refers to U6 subclades. It's true that U6 in North Africa is likely Mesolithic and even Paleolithic in age there, but this in my opinion reflects the ancient fingerprints of Cro-Magnons, so it had nothing to do with African ancestry at first. We don't know if U6 came from North Africa being already mixed with some sort of African, or if U6 in Europe represents minor Paleolithic remnants among other maternal lines, such as U5 for instance. All possibilities are open.

I agree very much. It is also noteworthy that African admixture in Bra1 turned out to be east african, not west african as one might expect.

ElHorsto
19-11-12, 18:11
They do. If you check the Southwest Asian component compared to Mediterranean, you'll see the former is more distant than the later concerrning East Asian groups, even when in the picture Southwest Asian could look closer. Imagine that we add more "Asian" to the so called Southwest Asian, and the component would cluster West Asian in the picture. So the distances reflect things how really are.


Makes sense.



However, there you are what Dienekes blogged, which is very ilustrative and expalins why some admixtures did not affected this kind of components (or did it in a lesser degree):

As for the African/Sub-Saharan components, they tend to be closer to the Southwest Asian/Red Sea components, not the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med one.

The Mediterranean components appear to be the most remote ones overall (also evidenced by the fact that Basques and Sardinians nearly always form the peak in the West/East Eurasian/African triangle), which makes sense since the region where the Mediterranean/Atlantic_Med component is modal is most remote from both Africa and Asia along the land migration routes.

That's what I expected too. I just was surprised that the proximity of North-European to Africa is relatively low. After all, NE and Med appear to have almost the same distance from Africa, while it is not surprising that NE is closer to Asian/Amerindian than Med. is.

Alan
19-11-12, 18:21
I agree with you: everyone has his arguments here:
but as you I noitice some 'mediterranean' (not too well defined) componant among hunters-gatherers of far Sweden, even if light, and heavier among the one of Spain (so, before neolithic!) - I note too what I consider as marks of "archaïc' remnant from Asia and Africa among the swede hunter-gatherers!!! maybe the african part was mixed with a sub-componant of 'mediterranean'? (mesolithic?) -
concerning the problem of lack or 'west-asian' among the swede farmer I think that farming was introduced in Scandinavia as on other European shores (Atlantic for the most) by 'long-barrows-' akin people (atlantic neolithic, inspired by cardial maybe but creating their own culture after , not the continental danubian neolithic where I see Y-G2 associated to Y-E1b-V13, at first - and, leaved apart the problem of boosting elite, I think that these megalithers beared a lot of 'mediterranean', and no 'west-asian' -
all that if the so called H-G-s was not yet crossed with some neolithic females... but the %s seam showing that it would have been old, what I don't believe...

I think farming must have been introduced from the east since the Mediterranean component is linked almost exclusively to Haplogroup G2a which is very low in Western Europe and farming on it self originated from the east. We know that non farmer population of Europe are highly North European like, they probably absorbed some Mediterranean during Neolithic from the Farmers. Also note that during Neolithic Bulgaria was also populated by Sardinian like population. It looks much more plausible that the original Mediterranean Farmer component was replaced by a new wave of migration. This is why the traces of farming dna is very weak in East Europe but high in more isolated areas of West and Southwest Europe. Simply because they could withstand or preserve themselves from a new invading group (Indo-Europeans?)

Knovas
19-11-12, 20:17
I agree very much. It is also noteworthy that African admixture in Bra1 turned out to be east african, not west african as one might expect.
The East African it's pretty insignificant considering the low number of SNPs available, and I think Dienekes' does not consider this real. On the other hand, East African is linked to West Eurasia, don't know if this could help on altering the results in this case.

But yours Horsto was a good point, mentioning that if U6 was responsible of the African shift in the Northern European cluster, then it should have also affected the so called Mediterranean in a similar degree. Who knows, the possibility that U6 was in Europe even before that in North Africa it's still alive. So doesn't matter which possibility is the correct one, since Alan probably gives part of the answer: another migration affecting Northern Europeans but not Southern Europeans made the difference, and that's why the Northern European cluster appears closer. It worth mentioning that if Mediterranean was in Europe during the Mesolithic, then the classical Neolithic farming theory only matches the increase of this component, not the introduction. Whatever it was the reason of the African shift in the Northern European cluster compared to Mediterranean, this occurred long before the Indo-European invasions, and I don't have a more specific explanation than the one given by Dienekes'. Obviously something happened, but don't know what...I don't see now U6 was determinant, but maybe I'm missing something.

Actually, Northern Europeans as whole are Asian shifted, while Southern Europeans tend to be African shifted (Basques and Sardinians are peculiar as we all know and do not match this). But we should also consider other admixtures regarding this.

Wilhelm
20-11-12, 06:08
I also do believe some kind of mediterranean was already in Europe in Mesolithic, the one found in La Brana and the Swedish Hunter-Gatherers...whereas the west-asian and SW-Asian components only appear in the Neolithic remains, so this latter is definately a neolithic marker but not Mediterranean (well, East-Med kind of med might be neolithic, but it appears that a great part of the Atlanto-mediterranean or Western-Mediterranean type of med was already there in pre-neolithic).

Kardu
20-11-12, 21:29
I think it's curious to mention that there is a striking similarity between Sardnian(and Corsican) and Georgian traditional polyphonic singing...

Similarity of lullabies, with a refrain Nana/Nanina is most peculiar. The refrain must be an echo of a prayer to the Mother Goddess Nana/Inana. So the connection probably dates from the period when Nana was venerated in Asia Minor.
(Nana appears in Greek lullabies as well)

Knovas
20-11-12, 22:22
The genes you share with Sardinians are essentially Mediterranean and Southwest Asian (very similar). ¿Maybe one day was the so called Mediterranean modal in the Caucasus? My impression is the West Asian admixture arrived there later despite its high frequency, but perhaps I'm wrong.

It's curious that even the Iron Age individual found in Bulgaria seemed to resemble Sardinians, although there's no specific data available.

Ivan
21-11-12, 17:02
I think it's curious to mention that there is a striking similarity between Sardnian(and Corsican) and Georgian traditional polyphonic singing...


I personally found more similarity between Corsican and Georgian melodies, (I do not understand the words, so no comment for that). I stumbled on this video when reading about Corsicans here on Eupedia, and it was the first one to appear when searched the phrase Corsicans. It is interesting that these guys sang together in 1995. BTW, very nice music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pLwcM6D42U

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhARVmyWQzs&feature=related

Kardu
21-11-12, 17:49
Thanks for the links, Ivan!

Sure, now languages are different: Georgian is an autochtonous Caucasian/Asia Minor language while modern Sardinians and Corsicans speak on languages derived from Latin.

Ivan
22-11-12, 17:57
Thanks for the links, Ivan!

Sure, now languages are different: Georgian is an autochtonous Caucasian/Asia Minor language while modern Sardinians and Corsicans speak on languages derived from Latin.

Hello Kardu,

Yes, I have recognized some sort of Latin in Corsican song. Still, the polyphony and overall tone is remarkably similar, even though languages are so different. I was referring to "Inana" word that you as a native speaker have brought up, which was a new and valuable insight. The fact that they themselves recognized a notable similarity, connected in times before internet and long before DNA studies were introduced, and that they were able to perform, quite effortlessly (or so it seems) together, is also interesting.

Kardu
22-11-12, 22:34
And it's also worth noting that this polyphony must be coming down from an ancient past and not just medieval times for example, since in the refrains of Georgian songs apart from Inana names of long-forgotten Anatolian and Mesopotamian gods are invoked (e.g. Enlil, Arale etc.).

So a neolithic link between the Caucasus and Mediterranean via G2a hg (and possibly J2a) does seem plausible.

Ivan
22-11-12, 23:06
And it's also worth noting that this polyphony must be coming down from an ancient past and not just medieval times for example, since in the refrains of Georgian songs apart from Inana names of long-forgotten Anatolian and Mesopotamian gods are invoked (e.g. Enlil, Arale etc.).

So a neolithic link between the Caucasus and Mediterranean via G2a hg (and possibly J2a) does seem plausible.

Yes, this seems to indicate a possible connection.

Also, some ancient bones testing would be nice in the near future.

ElHorsto
22-11-12, 23:21
So a neolithic link between the Caucasus and Mediterranean via G2a hg (and possibly J2a) does seem plausible.

I agree with that explanation. Taking the basques now into consideration as another mediterranean people, they completely lack G2a and their folk songs are probably different.

Knovas
22-11-12, 23:29
They don't lack G2a, but it's low (1.5%) according to Eupedia. It's probably even higher, we need more samples because R1b is so dominant among them. At 23andme I found a guy with a Basque surname who belonged to G2a, so that surely means something.

PD: This is offtopic, but I saw another Basque who is R1a1a. This seems really weird to me considering the Eupedia spreadsheet, but points to the Pasiegos who are their neighbours and high in R1a if I remember well.

Kardu
23-11-12, 00:13
Yes, this seems to indicate a possible connection.

Also, some ancient bones testing would be nice in the near future.

Several neolithic remains from Georgia are being analyzed for paleoDNA. We expect the first results in coming months. Can't wait! :)

Knovas
23-11-12, 15:23
Yeah Kardu, I'm also interested on this. I hope they don't only test haplogroups, but also as much autosomal markers as possible. We'll see if there's dominance of G2a the same as in the Western European findings, and if the samples come out largely "Mediterranean".

Ivan
23-11-12, 19:08
Several neolithic remains from Georgia are being analyzed for paleoDNA. We expect the first results in coming months. Can't wait! :)

A more of those would surely bring some light into the shady world of ancient history. Even our best speculations and ideas can be proven to be misleading without ancient DNA.

I have recently learned that J2 was quite spread in various forms across the Caucasus (east and west), but in terms of % not so equally represented in the north-west nowadays. Some forms of I should also come out if IJ* in Mazandarani is confirmed.

BTW, what happened with comprehensive Georgian DNA studies concerning all of the tribes? Is it done by now?

Kardu
23-11-12, 22:05
A more of those would surely bring some light into the shady world of ancient history. Even our best speculations and ideas can be proven to be misleading without ancient DNA.

I have recently learned that J2 was quite spread in various forms across the Caucasus (east and west), but in terms of % not so equally represented in the north-west nowadays. Some forms of I should also come out if IJ* in Mazandarani is confirmed.

BTW, what happened with comprehensive Georgian DNA studies concerning all of the tribes? Is it done by now?

We've got 4 regions covered and 2 more are currently being analyzed. In December 2 further regions will be tested :) Pool is not so big - 55 person from each area, but it will still give us better picture.
Autosomal tests are also on the way so we will have full range of data to compare with Sardinian etc.

Giacomo Pozza
20-06-16, 03:36
Well I'll give you my opinion.

First of all, according to the most recent archaeological finds, many of these finds being so recent that they weren't even of public domain when this thread started, the theory which sees the Sherden originating in Sardinia is the most likely, while that of them originating in Sardis or Western Anatolia is supported by nothing.

The name SRDN is attested in Sardinia since at least the 10-8th century bc in the Nora Stone, it is written in phoenician characters.
The Sherden Armor, helmets and swords are found in Southern Corsica, depicted in many stele-statues dating back to 1600 bc, so a long time before the Sherden were mentioned in the Amarna letters for the first time around the 14th century bc.
In Western Anatolia such depictions of helmets or armors were never found, nor before nor after the mention of the Sherden.
The Nuragic warriors of Sardinia are often depicted with horned helmets and circular shields similar to those of the Sherden, some helmets are almost identical to those of the Sherden, plus these depictions are more or less comntemporary to the Sherden, these Nuragic bronze statuettes and stone statues date back to the 12-8th century bc, while the Sherden are mentioned from the 14th to the 8th century bc.
While there are a few Mycenean helmets with horns, such as those depicted in the warrior vase, they're very diffrent from those worn by the Sherden warriors, which have striking similarities to those depicted in Southern Corsica and some of those worn by the Nuragic warriors of Sardinia.
I'll now mention the more recent finds that have occured, many of these in the last few years.
Nuragic potteries dating back to the LBA, the time when the Sherden appeared, used to carry food were found in Sicily, in the Lipari island, in Crete, Mycenean Greece and in Cyprus, this last discovery made in 2010, is especially relevant because Cyprus was attacked by the sea peoples multiples times and the site where the Nuragic pottery has been found was considered a sea people site, this discovery has caused archeologists to rethink the origin of the Sherden, possibly being "refugees" or merchants/sailors from Sardinia.
A really recent analysis of these bronze ingots revealed that many of them came from the red sea and the Sinai Peninsula, which was under the control of Egypt at the time, which reincorces the theory which sees the Nuragic Sardinians as the Sherden who were present in Egypt as mercenaries and royal guards of the pharaoh.
Remember that Sardinia had a special relationship with Cyprus and the Eastern Mediterranean during the bronze age compared to the rest of the Western mediterranean including the rest of Italy, the greatest amount of oxhide bronze ingots in the Mediterranean was found in Sardinia, more bronze ingot were found in Sardinia than in Crete or Cyprus itself.
Furthermore the connection between Sardinia and the Eastern Mediterranean is reinforced by the recent finds of melon seeds in Nuragic well dating back to 1350-1120 bc, at the time these seeds were grown only in Egypt and the Near East.
An argument that I've seen in this thread against the identification between the Sardinians and the Sherden is that Sardinia did
not have the technology at the time to produce bronze weapons, this is competely false.
Copper swords were present in Sardinia since 1600 bc, see the Sant'Iroxi swords for instance, these are among the earliest swords found in Europe, furthermore bronze daggers spears and axes are found in the island since the medium bronze age, and votive bronze swords were present in burials and temples dated to the XIV-XIIIth century bc, these finds testify the importance of swords in the Nuragic society, so yes, bronze weapons were a thing in Sardinia during the time period of the Sherden, and the Nuragic daggers have interesting parallels to those used by the Sherden and found in the Levant.
Another interesting note, a recent study (2013) has proved that over 60% of the copper used in bronze swords in Scandinavia was from Sardinia, and we're talkking about a period around 1500 bc, to give you an idea of how Sardinia held a huge place in the trade netwrok of the Bronze age.
I think I gave you a good amount of reasons to consider why the Sherden most likely originated from Sardinia and later migrated to the East, rather than the countrary.
Now I'll tell you why I don't believe that the Sherden originated from Sardis or Western Anatolia:
1)The Sherden were really numerous according to the Egyptian records, and they were highly regarded as sailors and warriors by them, then if they came from Western Anatolia, why are they never mentioned by the Hittities, despite the Hittites mentioning other Western Anatolians people and their lands multiples times, such as the Carians and the Licians, who were known by the same name to the Egyptians?
Why, despite the Hittities mentioning cities as far west as the Western Coast of Anatolia multiple times :Miletus, Ephesus, Wilusa (Troy), they never mention the Sherden or the city of Sardis?
The Hittities even mention the Myceneans/Acheans, who lived in Greece, why not the Sherden, who were much closer to their homeland, why did they mention the Carians, and not the Sherden, who were much more highly regarded by the Egyptians, being taken as royal guards?
2)Where is the archeological evidence for the people of Sardis being the Sherden?
According to the few depiction of Lydian and Western Anatolia warriors, they all look extremely different from the Sherden, why is that?
Also in Sardinia we have bronze age scarabs dated to the time of Ramsess the second, such as that found in the necropolis of Monte Prama, where the bones were dated to 1100-900 bc too, why are there no such finds in Sardis? Also Sardinia had a huge "industry" of Egyptian scarabs during the early iron age, so huge that Sardinia has the highest number of Scarabs in the Mediterranean, it's only next to Palestine and Egypt itself.
Scarabs had an important meaning in Sardinian society, while in the Western Anatolian one they had none, this makes no sense if the Sherden came from Anatolia, but it makes a lot of sense if the Sherden were Sardinians.
3)The Egyptian records do speak of the origins of the Sherden, according to the Egyptians they came from the midst of the sea, with their warships, no one being able to withstand them.
So their homeland is in the midst of the sea, this sounds like an island to me (Sardinia), not like Sardis, which is an inland city 150 km away from the coast, it makes absolutely no sense for a people known for their skill as sailor to come from a city far way from the coast.

Hauteville
11-07-16, 09:04
Oetzi had G2a and his autosomal is similar of modern Sardinians.

https://s31.postimg.org/lh4s1a4d7/Ancient_DNA_Dodecad_K12.png (https://postimg.org/image/gih9mr0k7/)

Dinarid
15-07-16, 04:30
I always associated the original Sardinian population with Haplogroup I2a1a. Perhaps the high concentration of G represents the earliest male lines? Or maybe they arrived at the same time?

Hauteville
28-07-16, 08:31
I always associated the original Sardinian population with Haplogroup I2a1a. Perhaps the high concentration of G represents the earliest male lines? Or maybe they arrived at the same time?

The first farmers like Oetzi had G2a, Sardinians are the people closer to Otzi, makes sense. I2 M26 makes 38% of Sardinian males but of course there are other haplogroups.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28934-Sardinian-Y-DNA-Phylogeny-per-Francalacci-et-al-2013?p=413296&viewfull=1#post413296