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how yes no 2
28-01-11, 01:44
Macedonia was slavic speaking in the 8th - 10th century.

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/419.png

Taken from the book “The Indo-European Languages” edited by Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paul Ramat, 1998, page 419.

All of the Southern Balkans were Slavic speaking areas in the 8th to the 10th century AD, Macedonia and Thessaly was completely Slavic speaking as was Epirus.

hm, don't want to be rude, but notice that Bulgars are north of Danube in today Romania and that everything bellow Danube is marked as Serbia..
those were proto-Bulgars who were according to history not Slavic but akin to Avars and Huns...
while Bulgars of today are Slavic people.....

so, if Macedonians are to be associated with Serbs, Bulgars or Greeks, they are historically by far closest to being Serbs, linguistically to modern Bulgars who are also according to map you posted essentially just speakers of one dialect of Serbian.., and in wish to be ancient Macedonians they are closest to Greeks....

to be honest, I do think that Ancient Macedonians were originally somewhat related to ancestors of Slavs....I do not think they were Greeks, except for minor elite e.g. royal family....when Macedonian king was not allowed to participate in Olympic games because Macedonians are not Greeks, he didnot claim that Macedonians are Greeks, but he claim that his family is.... I think that clearly sets situation....originally they were not Greeks, but later perhaps they were partially Hellenized...


but I do not think it really matters... you see, ancient Macedonians did not do anything except one silly conquest of the world attempt... they left no cultural impact of their own on world civilization.... culture of ancient Greeks did set key corner stones of modern civilization...

so, I do not really understand why both parties try to claim to descend from ancient Macedonians....except as right on land issue...it is comparable to trip of Albanians about being Illyrians... Illyrians never had some worthy cultural influence on the world...they were just all the time fighting between themselves as south Slavs still do.... and as Albanians never did....

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:54
Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages Webster Dictionary year 1967-1969!

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Indoeuropean_languages.jpg
Taken from the Webster Dictionary 1967-1969.

Comment this one, and ask yourself again what I said before about the Serbs. Serbs got the language from the Macedonians. Fact.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:57
hm, don't want to be rude, but notice that on that map Bulgars are north of Danube in today Romania and that everything bellow Danube is marked as Serbia..

Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia and Bulgaria spoke same language and was same people? Can you speak and understand Bulgarian? So Scandinavia was one country named Scandinavia? Open the history book again and start reading. Dont forget its about language not inhabitants.

how yes no 2
28-01-11, 02:10
Slovenia, Croatia, Serbia and Bulgaria spoke same language, do you understand Bulgarian?

all Slavic languages have large part of vocabulary shared... so basic communication is possible depending on how capable you are to recognize similarity of words...

strictly speaking Bulgarian language doesnot exist anymore, as according to official history Bulgarians did accept language of Slavic people who lived in areas that they have settled....

I am not really convinced though.... as there is also a medieval document "Letopis popa Dukljanina" that claims how south Slavs are Goths with small Slav admixture and how Bulgarians are of same origin and language and did settle massively in the area

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:15
http://www.spcoluzern.ch/index.php?pg=1666&lang=en
King Dusan proclaimed himself Emperor in 1346.
"In order to legitimise his title he needed to elevate the Serbian Archbishopric to the level of a Patriarchate. This was done on the occasion of a Church-State council held in Skoplje in 1346, on the day of the Feast of the Entrance of Our Lord into Jerusalem. Council was attended by the Bulgarian Patriarch Simeon, Archbishop of Ohrid Nicholas, abbots and elders of the Holy Mountain, as well as those Greek bishops and metropolitans whose dioceses were included in the newly enlarged Serbian state." (Maybe thats why he proclaimed himself Macedonian Tsar?)

Patriarchate of Peć
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchate_of_Pe%C4%87

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:28
Krste Misirkov - Macedonian culture, 1924!

Macedonian Culture
Our confidence, not only in the preservation of our nation but also in the ultimate triumph of the ideal of all Macedonians to achieve independence, is founded as we mentioned earlier not so much on the weakness of our enemy, or on aid from abroad, as on the knowledge of our people and of their past.
Some, however, may ask whether there really exists a Macedonian national culture and a Macedonian history which could be compared to that of the Serbs (read in here “and Bulgarians” - B.K.) and which would serve as foundation for the Macedonian an ideal of an independent Macedonia? Fortunately, we are able to give a positive answer to this: Macedonian national culture and history, being different from those of Serbia and Bulgaria, exist primarily because they have not been submitted to systematic and unbiased study. Both the Serbs and the Bulgarians, with great partiality and self-interest, chose to take from Macedonian culture and history only those aspects which attested to glory of the Serbian or Bulgarian national name, and simply ignored the questions of crucial importance either because they did not concern them or because they ran counter to the national ideals of the Serbian or Bulgarian historical researchers and their fellows.
I said that this was fortunate for Macedonian national culture and history because the Macedonian people were thus armed with an invincible weapon in their battle for human rights land a free national life on an equal footing with the other cultured nations.
Unfortunately, the independent study of Macedonian culture and history was begun only a short while ago by the Macedonians themselves, who, at the end of the last century began to lose faith in the scholars of Belgrade and Sofia with their more or less unanimous contention that the Slavs, during the Middle Ages, were a disorganized and unenlightened people who were spared from Hellenization thanks only to the state which had been first founded by the Turanian Bulgarians and later included in the Serbian state of Nemanjich.
But such assertions were equally erroneous in Belgrade and in Sofia, being backed as they were by the authority of Jagich and Marin Drinov.
We Macedonians have found this to be an error which resulted in a misconception on the part of both the Bulgarians and the Serbs, not only of the history of Macedonia and the Macedonians during the Middle Ages, but also of the history of the Serbs and Bulgarians.
We are able to show that the case was quite the contrary, that it was in fact the Macedonians who were the most active of all the South Slavs, more so even than the Turanian Bulgarians, throughout the entire Middle Ages right up to the conquest of the Balkan Peninsula by the Turks; we can also show that it was the Macedonians who waged the longest and hardest battle for their spiritual and political emancipation during the nineteenth century and the first quarter of the twentieth century.
Our failures, both in the Middle Ages and in more recent times, were the result of circumstances, which had nothing in common with the national awareness, and alleged lack of organization of the Macedonians.
The age long struggle of the Macedonians for cultural advance and national preservation, beginning 400-500 years before the emergence of the Serbian state of Nemanjich and continuing through the rise and decline of this state, taken together with the epic struggles for religious and political freedom, has gone to the making of Macedonia’s national culture and of our national history.

K. Misirkov- Macedonian, Macedonian culture, “Mir”, XXX, 7155, 19.IV.1924, 1.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:29
Krste Misirkov - The self-determination of the Macedonians, 1925!

The self-determination of the Macedonians
My article Macedonian Nationalism, which appeared in Mir on 12 March this year, aroused the ire of the paper “Svobodna rech”, which described me as “a man who still does not even know his own nationality”, a “simple-minded thinker who is capable of writing nonsense, of sinking even lower”, and who is “well-known for having once served in the Serbian propaganda service” and for lending his support to the theories of the Belgrade professor Cvjic concerning the existence of a separate Macedonian nationality”. As a result of these slanders against me in “Svobodna rech” many of my own townsfolk turned in fury upon me, and there were even some people who thoughtlessly claimed that they knew that in my student days I had attended assemblies of both the Bulgarian and the Serbian students and that this was why I had been driven out of the Bulgarian assemblies.
Similar senseless accusations were made in “Svobodna rech” and, as was only to be expected, these false rumors spread around Karlovo. This, however, did not greatly disturb me, as would have been clear to anyone who had read my article in “Mir” and who knew anything about my past… I knew full well that I would be attacked for my Macedonian Nationalism and that my article could certainly not be published in “Ilinden”. Nevertheless, although I was far from sure that it would be printed in “Mir”, I wrote out the article and sent it to this journal. And two days after it had appeared, “Svobodna rech” made me out to be a man who does not know his own nationality.
I was fully aware that I will be attacked for my “Macedonian nationalism”, that this article has no chance to be published in “Ilinden”, and I was not even sure that they will print it in “Mir”. I still wrote the article and sent it to the newspaper “Mir”. On the second day after its printing “Svobodna rech” named me a man that does not know his ethnicity.
Unfortunately “Svobodna rech” cannot make me give up my “lowly reasoning”. I still find that Macedonia today is butchered, that Greeks took their best parts, and have chased away the Macedonian population and replaced them with Asiatic new-comers that today are piled up next to the Serbian and Bulgarian border, the same as once the Byzantine Emperors were establishing next to the Bulgarian border military settlements of the Asiatic colonists: Armenians and Paulikians. I also find that if Serbs and Bulgarians do not find peace, and Macedonians are not included in voluntary cooperation with both Bulgarians and Serbs for safeguarding against the Greek wave that slowly, but surely moves from south toward north, all of us: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians will drown in the non-Slavic see that surrounds us from all sides. I think that only in agreement and cooperation between Serbs, Macedonians and Bulgarians is the salvation for all of us. Serbs and Bulgarians were fighting, Greeks and Romanians were profiting: they lost Macedonia, Trace and Dobrudza.
The most important condition for a cooperation between Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians, however, is the freedom of self-determination of Macedonians. And that is why, regarding this last issue, I emphasized the principle of the Macedonian patriotism and nationalism, as a fully neutral and satisfying for all: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians alike; but for now it is more correct to say that it is equally unsatisfying for all: Serbs, Bulgarians and Macedonians.
Since it is primarily us Macedonians that are suffering from the Serb-Bulgarian conflict, it is our duty to search for means and ways of resolving that conflict. That is forcing us “to know” up to the current day our nationality and to tell both Serbs and Bulgarians: forget about your big-Serb and big-Bulgarian ideas, give up enforcing your nationalism and patriotism on us, since it basically is putting your interests up front instead of ours. Let us have our own understanding for our relations toward you and your conflict about us and our fatherland, as well as for the means that will bring us to a general South Slav benefit. Let us have our own Macedonian national feelings and to create Macedonian culture, as we did that during the ages when our fatherland was not part of the same state with yours.
As Macedonians we will be more useful for all: for Macedonia, for Bulgaria and for Serbia and in general for the whole South Slav community, than as Bulgarians and Serbs.
As a Bulgarian I would have said long time ago: What Macedonia! It is good for me here too. I don’t need to think for what is already lost. But as Macedonian, in Bulgaria I feel as in a foreign land, although between brothers, I’m not at home, in my fatherland. My fatherland is there, where I have been born and where I should leave my bones, where my son should go at least, if I am not allowed to go myself.
The awareness and the feeling that I am Macedonian should stand higher than everything else in the world. Macedonians should not let themselves been assimilated and to lose their individuality living among Bulgarians and Serbs. We can acknowledge the closeness of the Serb, Bulgarians and Macedonian interests, but we need to evaluate them from the Macedonian stand point of view.
Uncompromising and unlimited love toward Macedonia, the constant thinking and working for the interests of Macedonia and the full conservativism in the manifestations of the Macedonian national spirit: the language, the national poetry, mentality and customs – those are the main characteristics of the Macedonian nationalism, demonstrated through “lowly reasonings of a man that still does not know his nationality”.
But we are not egoists. We don’t think only about ourselves. We are ready to make a good service to both Serbs and Bulgarians, but only if that service is voluntary and not forced.
How we can serve Serbs: we will all die, and we will not let the Greek foot to cross the current border of the Serb and Bulgarian Macedonia. But we will do that as Macedonians, and not as Serbs. We will fight with Greeks because they are our only historic and age old enemies. Our complete Macedonian national history is full with fights against Greeks. There is no fight with Bulgarians and Serbs recorded in the Macedonian history. Bulgarians and Serbs have respected the national rights of the Macedonians in the middle ages, and it was only Greeks that were destroying our national spirit and were de-nationalizing us. They even to the current day are chasing us away from our native fireplaces, and are reminding us that we have an age old obligation to chase the un-invited guests from our grand father’s and great grand-father’s lands.
That is the Macedonian national feeling, which is the historic call of every Macedonian that can be fulfilled only as a free and equal citizen of Yugoslavia, allowed to think and feel and talk and act as Macedonian.

K. Misirkov: The self-determination of Macedonians, “Mir”, 7427, 25. III 1925, 1.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:33
Krste Misirkov - Macedonian nationalism, 1925!

Macedonian Nationalism
We, the Macedonian intelligentsia, undoubtedly bear the greatest responsibility for the situation facing our country today. There are, however, certain extenuating circumstances which might justify us in the eyes of our unfortunate fellow-countrymen, especially those who have been driven from their homes and are now forced to wander, unwelcome and unwanted, in various part’s of Bulgaria.
For a full thirty years the Macedonians have been waging a heroic battle to release themselves from the yoke of Turkey. But at the same time the foreign propagandists have been infecting our country and demoralizing part of the population. The Macedonian intel-ligentsia have largely devoted themselves to revolutionary activity; but there have been some who have found other ways possibly no less important than that of the revolutionary struggle to ensure the success of Macedonia’s endeavors.
My book On the Macedonian Matters, published in 1903 in Sofia, and my article On the Importance of the Moravian or Resavian Dialects for the Historical Ethnography of the Balkan Peninsula, have shown that some of the Macedonian intellectuals are seeking and have found, another way of fighting, i.e. an independent Macedonian scientific way of thinking and a Macedonian national Consciousness.
I do not regret having declared myself in favor of Macedonian separatism twenty-eight years ago. Separatism was for me, and remains, the only way out, the best means by which the Macedonian intelligentsia could pay back and continue to repay their debt towards their people.
In 1912, when I was asked by my fellow villagers what should be done if our village remained under Greek control, I answered: no matter under whose control this village may remain, you will stay where you are, you shall not move anywhere.
Maybe from the great-Bulgarian point of view my advice was not sufficiently patriotic, but from the Macedonian point of view this was the only proper advice.
But when the Greeks forced many Macedonians to flee to Bulgaria I should, as a Bulgarian, have been glad that the Bulgarian people had lost their land just as long as they had been spared from Hellenization.
But I am not glad that they were forced to move. Nor can I look at this question through the eyes of Mr. Mih. Madzharov (one of the editors of Mir B.K.) who says that the underground and the city industry of Bulgaria benefited from the arrival of the refugees.
Here my Macedonian patriotism overcomes my Bulgarian patriotism. The Macedonians are necessary to Macedonia; it is only with the Macedonians that Macedonia can belong to the Macedonians, never without them.
The Macedonians should either remain where they are and let the devil take care of them if he likes or, if it is their fate to be forced to move, they should move from one part of Macedonia to another, but this should still be Macedonia and not Bulgaria, Serbia, or Greece. If they are driven out of the Greek part of Macedonia, the Macedonians should move into the Serbian part of Macedonia and form military settlements to await the day when they might return to their homes.
You may say that a Bulgarian cannot reason like this. Yes, but a Macedonian can and should reason like this.
I hope it will not be held against me that I, as a Macedonian, place the interests of my country before all… I am a Macedonian, I have a Macedonian’s consciousness, and so I have my own Macedonian view of the past, present, and future of my country and of all the South Slavs; and so I should like them to consult us, the Macedonians, about all the questions concerning us and our neighbors, and not have everything end merely with agreements between Bulgaria and Serbia about us - but without us …
Note: This article was written after an agreement signed between Greece and Bulgaria in 1923, according to which a great number of Aegean Macedonians would be turned out of their homes and driven into Bulgaria during winter, under the worst possible conditions, when the Bulgarians had not made even the most rudimentary preparations for receiving, housing, and feeding tens and even hundreds of thousands of Macedonian refugees.

K. Misirkov: Macedonian Nationalism, “Mir”, 7427, 12. III 1925, 1.

iapetoc
28-01-11, 02:34
so Dejavu

you became Makedonian at 800 AD by geografical name of area

I was born Makedonian by blood in the area that took name by my people

your bondage is by land name

My bondage is by blood name

I have nothing against slavic
I have have friends in Bulgaria, have friends in Fyrom, have friends in Serbia,
they are slavic

in the time you are showing the map we were here under slavian occupation of either Dusan or Simeon or Samuel

But we Never change Languge or nationality

understand that

you are a Slavo-Makedonian that has nation birth at 8th century

I am Makedonian that has nation birthay at 8th century BC

I still speak different with south-central Greeks
Ι still use accusative instead of possessive
I still end the words with different ends
I still don't speak the modern 'koine' municipal language
I still don't speak when I go to Athens with my own dialect
but I force them to speak my language Here
we still have different sounds of L and R and T and A
as also Cretans do
But that is not a difference of language as you claim
Hesychius says the same about ancient Makedonians

now keep your land and name your nationality
cause 1500 years we did not became slavic why today?
you cant make me a slavic
I know my family from 1600 AD when we left old village to the new
and we were here and never slavic

nobody has the right to make me something different than what i am


you follow Dusan a foreigner, the king of Serbia
I resist Dusan

For you Dusan is Great
For me the Makedonian it was a Slavic invader

we are not the same understand that.

we always had differences with peloponese and atheneans, even today we speak different, but we were and we are all greeks,

I am a Greco-Makedonian
You are a Slavo-Makedonian (if you are)


english Fat
con/polis Greek Pachos παχος
modern Greek Lipos λιπος
Thessalian Ligda λιγδα
GR Makedonian Χιngki Ξιγκι

if I say xingki in athens they laugh

as I laugh when they say kalamaki in North

Garrick
28-01-11, 02:48
Deja Vu


I will give one example appropriation of Serbian historical figures what is happening since the Communists in Macedonia (FYROM) came to power ie. from 1945.

_______
Marko Kraljevic

ARTICLE
from the
Encyclopædia Britannica

(http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/365789/Marko-Kraljevic)
Get involved (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/365789/Marko-Kraljevic) Share (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/365789/Marko-Kraljevic)

www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/365789/Marko-Kraljevic (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/365789/Marko-Kraljevic)

Marko Kraljević, (b. c. 1335—d. May 17, 1395, Rovine, Walachia [now in Romania]), Serbian (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/654691/Serbia) king (1371–95) of a realm centred in what is now Macedonia (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/354223/Macedonia) and a hero in the literature and traditions of the South Slavic (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/548156/Slav) peoples.


Marko Kraljević (“Mark, the King’s Son”) was a member of the Mrnjavčević family, which some sources suggest had Herzegovinian origins. Marko’s father, Vukašin, was king of the southern Serbian lands whose capital was Prilep (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/476028/Prilep) (now in Macedonia). When Vukašin was slain in battle with the Turks in 1371, Marko succeeded him as king but as a vassal to the Ottoman sultan. Marko is known to have completed a monastery at Sušica, near Skopje (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/547762/Skopje) (Maced.), and to have died fighting at the Battle of Rovine (1395) during a war between the Turks and the Walachian (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/634322/Walachia) prince Mircea the Old, but otherwise his life is sparsely documented. More colourful details have been preserved in Serbian ballads and epic poetry, as well as in various Balkan folk songs (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/212246/folk-song). Joyous, just, strong, incredibly brave, and chivalrous to a fault, Marko is portrayed as an implacable foe of the Turks, a prodigious drinker of wine, and inseparable from his horse, Šarac.



But you can see Macedonian literature, sites and blogs, one example:

ladnameana.blogspot.com/2010/08/blog-post.html

Крале Марко (околу 1335 (http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/1335) - 17 мај (http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/17_%D0%BC%D0%B0%D1%98) 1395 (http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/1395)) бил Македонски
крал (http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9A%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BB) што владеел во големиот дел од Македонија (http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B8%D 1%98%D0%B0) пред повеќевековната власт на турските султани (http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A1%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%82%D0%B0%D0%BD) и станал најпознат јунак (http://mk.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%D0%88%D1%83%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BA&action=edit&redlink=1) на епското (http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%95%D0%BF%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0) народно творештво не само на Македонците (http://mk.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD%D1%86%D 0%B8), туку и пошироко.



In Macedonia (FYROM) since the Communists people learn that Kraljevic Marko is Krale Marko and that he was a Macedonian. Never mind that this is not true.



When I talk to people in Macedonia (FYROM) about this and similar appropriation of Serbian kings, heroes, wise men, and so on. I get answers all to know that they are Serbs and the problem of usurping is the policy.

Deja Vu, you can produce the hundreds of pages of posts, believe me, in good faith I say, no policy can appropriate the history of others, neither Greeks nor Serbs, neither Greek nor Serbian historical figures.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:52
Kral or Kralj was not used by Macedonians, only Tsar. (Krali or Krale Marko)
If anyone are claiming something then there must be a source. No source then its irrelevant.
Notice: Marko Mrnjavčević not Marko Kraljević.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Marko
According to the local legends, Marko's mother was Evrosiya (Евросия), sister of the Bulgarian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgarian_people) voivoda (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Voivoda) Momchil (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Momchil), who ruled territories in the Rhodope Mountains (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Rhodope_Mountains).

Serbian Kings got mixed heritage, partly Bulgarian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Vlastimirovi%C4%87

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Migration_of_Serbs.png/600px-Migration_of_Serbs.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Migration_of_Serbs.png)
[/URL]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Balkans850.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2d/Balkans850.png)
The Sclavenes lived in Serbian land by early 500 A.D. (No Serbs before 500 A.D.)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png)
The "Sklavinias" in the Balkans, 7th–8th centuries

[URL]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae




Sklavinia(i) (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Σκλαβινίαι, Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Latin_language): SCLAVINIAE) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name Sclaveni (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sclaveni), which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The Sclaviniae of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations:

The Serbs (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbs) became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (hypekooi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mixobarbaroi)) and eventually became independent.
The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire), they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of Bulgarians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgarians).

DejaVu
28-01-11, 03:00
so Dejavu

you became Makedonian at 800 AD by geografical name of area

I was born Makedonian by blood in the area that took name by my people

your bondage is by land name

My bondage is by blood name

I have nothing against slavic
I have have friends in Bulgaria, have friends in Fyrom, have friends in Serbia,
they are slavic

in the time you are showing the map we were here under slavian occupation of either Dusan or Simeon or Samuel

But we Never change Languge or nationality

understand that

you are a Slavo-Makedonian that has nation birth at 8th century

I am Makedonian that has nation birthay at 8th century BC

I still speak different with south-central Greeks
Ι still use accusative instead of possitive
I still end the words with different ends
I still don't speak the modern 'koine' municipal language
I still don't speak when I go to Athens with my own dialect
but I force them to speak my language Here
we still have different sounds of L and R and T and A
as also Cretans do
But that is not a difference of language as you claim
Hesychius says the same about ancient Makedonians

now keep your land and name your nationality
cause 1500 years we did not became slavic why today?
you cant make me a slavic
I know my family from 1600 AD when we left old village to the new
and we were here and never slavic

nobody has the right to make me something different than what i am


you follow Dusan a foreigner, the king of Serbia
I resist Dusan

For you Dusan is Great
For me the Makedonian it was a Slavic invader

we are not the same understand that.

we always had differences with peloponese and atheneans, even today we speak different, but we were and we are all greeks,

I am a Greco-Makedonian
You are a Slavo-Makedonian (if you are)

One Word: PARANOIA

DejaVu
28-01-11, 03:03
European Union - All unite for peace.

how yes no 2
28-01-11, 03:04
I am a Greco-Makedonian
You are a Slavo-Makedonian [/B](if you are)

yes, but it may happen that two of you are genetic cousins...
so who would be right than? and would it matter?

Garrick
28-01-11, 03:29
Kral or Kralj was not used by Macedonians, only Tsar. (Krali or Krale Marko)
If anyone are claiming something then there must be a source. No source then its irrelevant.

DejaVu
That is the problem that Macedonians Serbian king Marko Kraljevic (as Mark Prince) posing as Macedonians named Marko Krale.

And not only him, I can give you a list.

And sources are as many as you like, what it means to ask the Macedonian sites and blogs on Eupedia in Cyrillic.

Here is just an example of another site (who knows Macedonian can find as he want):

www.panoptikum.com.mk/2009-11-08-15-10-52/koreni-senki-odeci/853-2010-04-17-20-25-28.html (http://www.panoptikum.com.mk/2009-11-08-15-10-52/koreni-senki-odeci/853-2010-04-17-20-25-28.html)

За Марко Крале се смета дека е една од најконтроверзните личности во македонската средновековна историја.


It really makes no sense, I say there is no such policy that something can justify.

iapetoc
28-01-11, 03:51
How yes no

it is not that easy
maybe a part, a small percentage

but we The Greeks-Makedonians never went so up to Skopje
never, they were the Paeonians mostly Allies
later with roman byzantine and ottoman maybe
But it is most obvius that they came when slavic Kingdoms were strong, very strong that occupied half Greece,
we know that the land of Bardar was never ours
did you ever hear 1 Greek to say Skopje was Greek????
no
simply a treaty when we were small country and nation and with no national allies,
(we had some protection from Some Powers, I dont deny)

that has to do with Turkish land when they were leaving,
that treaty is only in pappers
besides Germans and Austrian are relatives are they 1 country? No
then why to make a country that has bad memmories,
leave my brothers the south Greeks, and unite with Slavic-Makedonians (if they are my brothers)
whose Heroes are my enemies,
Understand that, we Became different,
Albanians and Greeks have almost same DNA in a Big %
are we the same nation?
no thousands years before we change or cut,
with south italy we are same also genetic, are we same nation today?
with Turks in west minor asia and Pontus black sea have 50% same DNA and also history and nationality until 1923,
but today we cut, they are other nation,
in earlier times when seljuk turks came
they went to Taursus, the first islamization area
so in Greek when a man is turning to islam we dont say he became muslim, we say he became Turk (Taursus religion)
that is a cut of nationality, a schisma, an expel,
probably with Slavomakedonians there is a small DNA relations, wich became bigger at 1948 and 1916-1920 with exchanges and exiles and immigrations,
but today we are tottaly different,
For example Dejavu's Hero Yane Sandasky for me he was a famous fighter rabel etc, but he hunt my people,
how can i consider him a Hero of my own,


How Yes NO
look at that map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Byzantine_Macedonia_1045CE.svg/423px-Byzantine_Macedonia_10%2045CE.svg.png

a stupid ruler named Makedonia today Bulgaria

does that make a sense?

so by that map today Bulgarians can claim that they are the Makedonians

does that make sence???

tomorrow a politician may change name of Frieshland to Austria, will you change nationality, in papers yes, but not in soul, or blood,
the same is here,
if I write more about my village history then Dejavu will keep spaming
so i stop here

iapetoc
28-01-11, 04:23
Besides European Union accepts the different nationalities, and Languages,

and about Paranoia DejaVu
thank you
look at your own Paranoia and keep spamming mania,

thank you I will not Buy
I am a poor original Makedonian Who was Converted To Christianity and today I try to expel it

I was never Slavonized or became Turkish, or muslim

for that I have to ask you Name your Nationality First By Blood and After by Land

Besides ALL SERBIAN GREEKS BULGARIANS AND ALBANIANS ARE FAKE TO YOU

one WORD LUNATIC

LeBrok
28-01-11, 04:31
yes, but it may happen that two of you are genetic cousins...
so who would be right than? and would it matter?

Lol, it would be funny if iapetoc tested slavic R1a or G2a.
I would love to see his faces when he gets the news. :)

iapetoc
28-01-11, 04:40
hahaha
I am G2a3
or G2a2, i will find tomorrow the results

What are trying to do people, I am Proud for What I AM

Elias2
28-01-11, 06:05
We will fight with Greeks because they are our only historic and age old enemies. Our complete Macedonian national history is full with fights against Greeks. There is no fight with Bulgarians and Serbs recorded in the Macedonian history. Bulgarians and Serbs have respected the national rights of the Macedonians in the middle ages, and it was only Greeks that were destroying our national spirit and were de-nationalizing us. They even to the current day are chasing us away from our native fireplaces, and are reminding us that we have an age old obligation to chase the un-invited guests from our grand father’s and great grand-father’s lands.

European Union - All unite for peace.



I find these two posts amusing and contradictory :good_job:


When you become a new country like FYROM did in 1991, you don't come off the start of your independence with land claims against bulgaria and greece, two of your neighbours, a civil war with albanians and call serbs a fake country. You only look for trouble, and its not surprising that FYROM is also the poorest country in the region either, even behind albania where they have mobsters ruling that country. Skopje is using the age old political trick of pushing nationalism sentiment to avoid getting attention on the real problems on FYROM, the economy. The more poor a country is the more nationalism you see eminating from it, the same goes with albania or anyone else.

You don't need a PH.D to know the ancient macedons were greeks, you just need to look at their accomplishments and what they were pushing to shape the world at the time, it was the hellenic idea, not a slavic idea which were not even in the balkans at the time.

iapetoc
28-01-11, 07:40
dejavu

slavic people enter at 600 AD
since then they have a home country in balkans,
we were at the Greek Makedonia from 800 BC 1500 Before of you,
we never went to Skopje or even the Natural border Iron Gates of Axios river (Bardar demir kapi) only a few kilometres from Ευγελεια (Gevgelija) but who cares, for few km

the only one that can say that we took their lands is the Paeonians the Bithyni the Vrygians (Phrygians) and the Pieri people,
Besides ancient makedonians use same sound and tones with Vrygians and have a rich common vocabulary (isotones) (hesychius of alexandria)
all these tribes were ancient Thracians,
are you a Thracian???

but the Paeoni took place in olympic games from 330 BC
and have a statue at Olympia

another nation was The Bardari Huns that were settled in Αμφαξίτις (today Skopje valley) before the famous slavic invasions and Bulgarian

Besites the 1rst Greeks that settled in today Greek Makedonia was the Bottiaioi (βοττιαιοι) ατ 1100 BC from crete,

DejaVu
28-01-11, 19:16
Besides ALL SERBIAN GREEKS BULGARIANS AND ALBANIANS ARE FAKE TO YOU

For me they are because of claiming wrong history.
If I ruled I would not recognize any of those countries (if they dont accept the real history).

Regulus
28-01-11, 19:22
I find these two posts amusing and contradictory :good_job:


When you become a new country like FYROM did in 1991, you don't come off the start of your independence with land claims against bulgaria and greece, two of your neighbours, a civil war with albanians and call serbs a fake country. You only look for trouble, and its not surprising that FYROM is also the poorest country in the region either, even behind albania where they have mobsters ruling that country. Skopje is using the age old political trick of pushing nationalism sentiment to avoid getting attention on the real problems on FYROM, the economy. The more poor a country is the more nationalism you see eminating from it, the same goes with albania or anyone else.

You don't need a PH.D to know the ancient macedons were greeks, you just need to look at their accomplishments and what they were pushing to shape the world at the time, it was the hellenic idea, not a slavic idea which were not even in the balkans at the time.

Well said, throughout.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 19:32
The Greek History. Continuity of fakness.

And here is your Fake Greek enlightenment. The Fake Greeks.


And the Greeks?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lbanian_origin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_of_Albanian_origin)
Greeks (of Arvanite origin)
Andreas Miaoulis
Markos Botsaris
Laskarina Bouboulina
Nikolaos Krieziotis
Xadziyiannis Mexis
Pavlos Kountouriotis - First Greek President
Kitsos Tzavelas
Georgios Kountouriotis - Prime Minister of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Greece) under King Otto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Otto_of_Greece).
Antonios Kriezis
Dimitrios Voulgaris - He was thus one of the greatest exponents of the Modern Greek Enlightenment (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Modern_Greek_Enlightenment).
Athanasios Miaoulis
Diomidis Kiriakos
Theodoros Pangalos
Petros Voulgaris
Alexandros Diomidis
Nikos Engonopoulos
Ieronymos II - Archbishop of Athens (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Archbishops_of_Athens) and All Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece) (GERMAN)
Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria or Othon, king of Greece (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Ὄθων, ΒασιλεὺςτῆςἙλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Greek_monarchs) of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) in 1832 under the Convention of London (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/London_Conference_of_1832), whereby Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Great_Powers) (the United Kingdom (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland), France (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/July_Monarchy) and the Russian Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Russian_Empire)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis) (VLACH)
Ioannis Kolettis (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): ΙωάννηςΚωλέττης) (1773[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] - 1847) was a Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) politician of Vlach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians) origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias) (Venetian)
Count (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): ΚόμηςΙωάννηςΑντώνιοςΚαποδ ίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias, in Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language): Giovanni Capo d'Istria, Conte Capo d'Istria, and in Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): графИоаннКаподистрия – Graf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graf) Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) diplomat of the Russian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire) and later first head of state of independent Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Hellenic_Republic).
Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu),(Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek), one of the Ionian Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Islands), which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice) . He studied medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine), philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) and the law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law) at Padua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padua), in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu. He was throughout his life a deeply liberal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism) thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a conte (count) by Charles Emmanuel II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Emmanuel_II), Duke of Savoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Savoy), and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the Libro d'Oro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_d%27Oro) of the Corfu nobility; the title originates from Capodistria, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koper) in Slovenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia) and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma) from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized. His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori. His mother's family, the Gonemi, had been listed in the Libro d'Oro since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu), the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kavalliotis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kavalliotis) (Aromanian)
Theodore Kavalliotis (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Θεόδωρος Αναστασίου Καβαλλιώτης, Romanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Romanian_language): Teodor Kavalioti, 1718 – 11 August 1789) was a Greek Orthodox (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church) priest, teacher and a figure of the Greek Enlightenment (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment). He is also known for having drafted an Aromanian-Greek-Albanian dictionary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios) (Aromanian)
Rigas Feraios or Rigas Velestinlis (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Ρήγας Βελεστινλής-Φεραίος, born Αντώνιος Κυριαζής, Antonios Kyriazis; also known as Κωνσταντίνος Ρήγας, Konstantinos or Constantine Rhigas; Serbian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbian_language): Рига од Фере, Riga od Fere; 1757—June 13, 1798) was a Greek writer and revolutionary, an eminent figure of the Greek Enlightenment (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment), remembered as a Greek national hero, the first victim of the uprising against the Ottoman Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) and a forerunner of the Greek War of Independence (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...ent_Aromanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prominent_Aromanians)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites)

Just speak Greek and have Greek name then you belong to the ancient Greeks, easy and simple.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 19:52
The Greek Europeans?

Ann Hum Biol. (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Ann%20Hum%20Biol.') ;) 2010 Jul 29.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704)

Abstract
Background: The HLA polymorphism is a powerful genetic tool to study population origins. By analysing allele frequencies and haplotypes in different populations, it is possible to identify ethnic groups and establish the genetic relationships among them. Aim: The Berber (endogenous Tunisians) HLA class I and class II genotypes were analysed and compared with those of Mediterranean and Sub-Saharan African communities using genetic distances, Neighbour-Joining dendrograms, correspondence and haplotype analysis. Subjects and methods: One hundred and five unrelated Berbers were typed for HLA class I (A, B) and class II (DRB1, DQB1) gene alleles using reverse dot-blot hybridization. Results: High frequencies of A*0201 (24.76%), A*3402 (22.38%) and B*44 (32.85%) alleles were recorded for Berbers, the highest recorded for Mediterranean and North African populations. This study shows a close relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to other Tunisians, North Africans and Iberians. Conclusion: The apparent relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to present-day (North African) Tunisians, Algerians and Moroccans suggests that the Arab invasion of North Africa (7(th)-11(th) centuries AD) did not significantly impact the genetic makeup of North Africans. Furthermore, Tunisian Berbers appear to be closely related to Iberians (Spaniards and Basques), indicating that the 7(th) century AD gene flow of invaders was low in Iberians and that the main part of their genetic pool came after the Northward Saharan migration, when hyper-arid conditions were established in Sahara (before 6000 BC). Other studied populations belong to the old Mediterranean substratum, which has been present in the area since pre-Neolithic times. This study indicates a higher proportion of Iberian than Arab ancestry in Tunisian Berbers, which is of value in evaluating the evolutionary history of present-day Tunisians. Greeks seem to share genetic HLA features (Chr 6) with Sub-Saharans. The relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharans has been confirmed by other studies based on chromosome 7 genetic markers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract).
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans... Hajjeja 2005 also claims that "Our study shows that the Greeks are separate from other Mediterranean populations and tend to cluster with Sub-Saharans (Figs. 2 and 3). This result confirms the Sub-Saharan origin of Greeks". Di Giacomo 2003 reported for Y Hg A found in Mitilini-Greece. Al-Zahery 2003 also separates the Macedonians/Europeans from the Greeks.....or vice versa.
http://files.myopera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/HLA%20genes%20in%20Southern%20Tunisians%204a.jpg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309
HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.
A. Hajjej a, S. Hmida a,*, H. Kaabi a,A. Dridi a,A. Jridi a, A. El Gaa1ed b, K. Boukef a
a National Blood Transfusion Centre, Tunis, Tunisia
b Laboratory of Immunogenetics, Department of Biology, University of Tunis, El Manar

Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in the Greek–Turkish Area
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347402u768310m3/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347402u768310m3/)

Measuring European Population Stratification with Microarray Genotype Data
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/)

DejaVu
28-01-11, 19:57
Yavanas Not the Greeks.
http://satyavidya.com/yavanas.htm

Yavanas are often thought to have been Greeks by Western scholars. However, their existance does not seem that important in the ancient world, and there are many factors that show them as non-Greeks.

For a start, we note Kala-yavana, the "Dark Yavana" of the Mahabharata, who fought with Duryodhana. Whilst it may refer to his dark powers, it is possible this Dark-Yavana is of dark complexion, and perhaps pertaining to Africa - or ancient Egypt.

The two dates for Krishna are 3000BC and no later than 1500BC. So, it is less likely to be that Yavanas are the Greeks.

Moreover, Panini refers to the Yavanas around 600BC, or perhaps earlier. They appear to be related to the Kambojas, since he mentions they both were condemned to shave their heads. It shows them as related peoples. The Puranas make them decendants of the Turvashas, peoples of South-Western India.

This shows that the Yavanas were peoples that shaved their heads. It was hence, not the ancient Greeks. But, we do know for a fact, that the ancient Egyptians - an ancient culture existing at the same time as the Vedic and a Sister-culture - the Rulers shaved their heads and wore wigs, whilst the priests also shaved their heads!

We also note the Egyptians called themselves as Kam peoples, which perhaps has some relation to the Khambojas, and therefore, the Yavanas. Kam meant black - cognate to the later Kaal of the Hindus, meaning the same. The term Kala-yavana also hence comes to mind.

Are the Egyptians the Yavanas mentioned in the early Indian texts?

If so, the connection in the ancient city of Alexandria, in which Hindu and Western contact were made, could account for the famed Yavanacharya, the great Yavana-astrologer who studied Vedic astrology! He could have been an Egyptian from this region. Takshashila, in Western India, which had existed from 700BC was a University province, also attracted students from Greece and Persia, so the scholar tells us. But, what about Greece? Could not have an earlier connection between the Hindu and Egyptian schools have arisen?

Egyptians are more likely to have, and had a closer and esoteric cultural links with the Vedic than the Greeks did, and from earlier times.

The British scholar is possessed about having Greeks in India since god knows when, but does not mention the Egyptian connections with India! It is hence much more likely that the Egyptians were the Yavana peoples, referred to in Mahabharata and Ramayana, as Vedic peoples.

The Egyptians, as noted were much closer than the Greeks, and had closer relations. The land of the dead was called Manu - the same as the Vedic forefather and name for Yama, the god of the deceased, who was formally Manu.

There are other things. The Egyptian word for Pyramid was 'Mer'. Meru is the name of the pyramidal architectual style the Hindus build their temples after. Meru is the abode of Svargaloka (Heaven) in the Himalayas, and hence all temples are built to resemble Meru in this style. The Greeks did not build in such styles.

The Egyptian Sun and Supreme God is Ra, and is similar to Ram (Raam), the ancient Vedic Sun-God and avatara. Ram itself, was probably a much earlier term. Interestingly also, the syllable "Ram" (short 'a', not as aa in Raam), is mentioned (Brihadaranyaka Up.V.12) by Yajnavalkya as the syllable for Prana, relating to Food. Now, the Manipura Chakra has Ram (Rang, the bija-mantric form) as it's mantra, and relates to the Digestive system, thus food. Manipura is also the City of Gemstones chakra, relating to Delight or Bliss, which comes from Ram (pleasure, bliss).

Ram as the basis of Raam, also means the same - delight or bliss, and here as the Fire-chakra, relates to the Fire of the Sun, and hence an ancient Vedic term for the Sun as Ra, Ram or Raam. Ra also means 'To Rule' in Sanskrit.

It appears Raam as the Supreme God, must have come from a Vaishnava influence in India. Hence, the Egyptians as Yavanas, must have had a Brighu or Bhargava influence through the ancient S.Indian Sri-Vaishnava tradition - which also uses symbols, not unlike the pictographs of ancient Egypt.

To recollect, Yavana means both "fast moving" and "youthful". It is hence also related to the Bhargava seers, through Chyavana Bhargava (also called Atharvan), whose name is not only close to Yavana, but also in the Rig Veda, has his youth restored to him by the Ashwin gods!

This links the Atharvans or mystical Bhargava sages, known to practice abhichara or mysticism, with the Yavana peoples also - at least as their Gurus. It is known the Egyptians had Bhargava seers, for their Venus-based astrology and architecture;- the "Meru" or Pyramidal style of architecture in India (and indeed Vastu or architecture itself), was founded by Ushana Kavya (Asuramaya, 'Guru of the Demons'), of whom was known as Imenhotep in Egypt. Here we also link Ra, Rama and the Sri Vaishnavas*.

Interestingly, in Rig Veda, King Sudas is called "Paijavana" (VII.18.21-25), 'Son of Pijavana'. Pijavana means also (like Yavana), 'one who speeds' or a fast mover. Yavana is hence here, an adaptation of Javana, and a Vedic term referring to any great monarch, or peoples that migrated fast defeating others, or were driven from India. In this sense, the Yavanas as Egyptians, could be such a peoples, that were driven from India in Vedic times - as most certainly seems to be the case.

Here however, we see that Yavana is a term that began in India itself, for the Vedic Aryans themselves - not foreigners! But, they do appear as peoples related to ancient Indians, or Vedic Indians - which predates the Greeks, so again, points to Egypt.

In regards to the Egyptian embalming practice, we also link this with the Bhargava Ruler, King Vena, brother of Asuramaya (Imenhotep). A materialistic King, and whom Venus is named after in Rome - Vena's body was said to have been preserved as immortal by his mother, through various practices. Later, the Seers rubbed his legs, and from it were born Nishada and Prithu (King of whom the earth was so named).

Another King - Nimi of the Videha or East-Indian solar dynasty, also had his body immortalised through ancient practices. Later Videha Royals - such as Buddha, for example - built funery mounds (Stupas), which also show the idea of ancient Tombs.

Many Vedic demons as Shambara, as noted in Rig Veda, also resemble the Egyptians, as the Rig Veda criticizes them for hiding their wealth in mountains (rock-cut tombs?). The later E.Indian Ahom ruler also build Pyramidal burial mounds.

Indian texts also describe the Yavanas as great Astrologers and Vimana-makers (makers of flying vehicles), which cannot be the Greeks. But - could very well be the Egyptians - of whom were more or less a Vedic Colony or Centre to the West - and the forefathers and teachers of the Greeks, as is well-known!

Many have also stated that the abode of Asuramaya (Ushanas Kavya, Imenhotep) as Romakapura in the texts to be Rome, and the Raumyas to be Romans. However - could it not refer to the Rama or Ra-worshipping Egyptians? Raumyas referring to "people of Ra"?

It would furthur equate Egypt as a Western Vedic Centre of ancient times, and also equate them as being the Yavanas, of great astrological fame and renoun.
It is curious that Manu mentions the peoples or tribes of Asia - Shakas (Schthians), Chinas (Chinese), Kiratas (Tibetans and peoples of Central Asia), Pahlavas (Persians) - but to equate the Yavanas he mentions as Greeks, does not conform! Why are the Greeks the only significance to Hindus and mentioned with Asian tribes?

It is more likely they were the closer-related and closer culture-sharing Egyptians - just as Kirata (Tibetan) and China (Chinese and E.Asian) peoples he mentions, are well-known to have (also) shared Vedic cultural relationships, and the Chinese (like the Egyptians, or "Yavanas?"), shared their arts, sciences etc. which they preserved and cherished.

Again - the Greeks and Romans shared a less tightly and uncivilised and hence 'non-Aryan' form of civilisation, compared to the Egyptians or Chinese. I hence beleive them, if a Western peoples, to have been the Egyptians.

There is also more likelihood (since their culture, like China and SE Asia), shared closer terminology, gods and practices with the Vedic peoples - that they are mentioned in the ancient Hindu texts over the Greeks.

The Rig Veda, II.13.8, mentions a demonic king, Narmar, which may perhaps be Narmer, the first Pharoah of ancient Egypt. Vamana Purana mentions a Namar that fought with Maheshasura against the Goddess. This is only a possibility, but perhaps also, an historical mention.

This again links them with the E.Indian influence into SE Asia and China, which was previously noted, through Raja Nimi and the Solar Dynasty. Perhaps the Yavanas, or some of them, also became Buddhists like the Chinese and SE Asians did - and hence were referred to as Yavanas still around pre-Ashoka times as this also. Their Indic influences would then be contemporary with other lands as China and SE Asia, as Manu mentions.

Yavana then, perhaps meant them as "Western Vedic People", and Egypt was a deliberate "Western Takshashila" type centre set up, echoed later by the Greco-Roman influences (or borrowings) in Alexandria. Manu etc. hence mention them along with Asian peoples, as conforming to Vedic rights, although in the West - unlike (other) Western peoples.

Here, we speculate. However, as we see, there is little, - infact no evidence, that shows the Greeks as Yavanas. However, it makes Egypt appear closer to Indian and Vedic Dharma, and as Romakapura of the texts (remembering that Asuramaya who lived there founded Pyramidal Architecture - not a charactoristic of Rome).

iapetoc
28-01-11, 20:27
οι υιοι Ιαυαν κατωκηασν τας Νησους εν Θαρσεις

(the sons of Iayan-Iavan dwell the Islands in Thracians)
later known as Ioninic- Ionians - Yunan

the sons of Iayan
Helleisas ->Hellenes or Helleians or Heleliras
Tharseis -> Thracians
Kitteim ?????
Dodanim - Dodona ancient Greek famous oracle (archegonus proto Greek by Strabo)

keep spreading .........

Genesis 10 3-4

Besides we are not Yavanas
But Yunan or Iayan or Iaian or Ionae - Iones -Ionic


Iapetus and Japheth


Besides Iapetus was worshiped in Crete, Arcadia peloponese, Cillikia (taursus) Anchiale
And in Phrygians Before they move to minor asia


Pausanias (8.27.15) writes:
As I have already related, the boundary between Megalopolis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megalopolis,_Greece) and Heraea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraea,_Arcadia) is at the source of the river Buphagus. The river got its name, they say, from a hero called Buphagus, the son of Iapetus and Thornax. This is what they call her in Laconia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laconia) also. They also say that Artemis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis) shot Buphagus on Mount Pholoe because he attempted an unholy sin against her godhead. Buphagus is a tributary of the river Alpheus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpheus_%28mythology%29), Thornax is a mountain between Sparta and Sellasia, and Pholoe is a mountain between Arcadia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arcadia) and Elis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elis).


Thank you You just prove another Historical evidence


OR EXCEPT SERBIAN ALBANIAN BULGARIAN GREECE, MAYBE THE BIBLE IS ALSO FAKE

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

:thinking::thinking:
Oh Olympians Please send the Cure to himOh Zeu please dont punish his Blasphemy
but send Athena to give the man Wisdom

:sad-2::sad-2:

DejaVu
28-01-11, 20:40
Ofcourse you are not Yavanas.
The genetics shows you (modern greeks) are sub-saharan.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 20:49
Bible information.

DANIEL 8:20-21
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calc...html?bcb=right (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom25.iii.xxv.html?bcb=right)
20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum. Therefore the meaning is — the king of Greece.


http://www.openbible.info/ (http://www.openbible.info/)

Acts 16:9 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-9.htm) A vision appeared to Paul in the night. There was a man of Macedonia standing, begging him, and saying, "Come over into Macedonia and help us."

Acts 16:10 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-10.htm) When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go out to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the Good News to them.
Acts 16:12 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-12.htm) and from there to Philippi, which is a city of Macedonia, the foremost of the district, a Roman colony. We were staying some days in this city.
Acts 18:5 (http://bible.cc/acts/18-5.htm) But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts 19:21 (http://bible.cc/acts/19-21.htm) Now after these things had ended, Paul determined in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome."
Acts 19:22 (http://bible.cc/acts/19-22.htm) Having sent into Macedonia two of those who served him, Timothy and Erastus, he himself stayed in Asia for a while.
Acts 20:1 (http://bible.cc/acts/20-1.htm) After the uproar had ceased, Paul sent for the disciples, took leave of them, and departed to go into Macedonia.
Acts 20:3 (http://bible.cc/acts/20-3.htm) When he had spent three months there, and a plot was made against him by Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he determined to return through Macedonia.
Romans 15:26 (http://bible.cc/romans/15-26.htm) For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are at Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:5 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/16-5.htm) But I will come to you when I have passed through Macedonia, for I am passing through Macedonia.
2 Corinthians 1:16 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/1-16.htm) and by you to pass into Macedonia, and again from Macedonia to come to you, and to be sent forward by you on my journey to Judea.
2 Corinthians 2:13 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/2-13.htm) I had no relief for my spirit, because I didn't find Titus, my brother, but taking my leave of them, I went out into Macedonia.
2 Corinthians 7:5 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/7-5.htm) For even when we had come into Macedonia, our flesh had no relief, but we were afflicted on every side. Fightings were outside. Fear was inside.
2 Corinthians 8:1 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/8-1.htm) Moreover, brothers, we make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the assemblies of Macedonia;
2 Corinthians 9:2 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/9-2.htm) for I know your readiness, of which I boast on your behalf to them of Macedonia, that Achaia has been prepared for a year past. Your zeal has stirred up very many of them.
2 Corinthians 11:9 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-9.htm) When I was present with you and was in need, I wasn't a burden on anyone, for the brothers, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my need. In everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and I will continue to do so.
Philippians 4:15 (http://bible.cc/philippians/4-15.htm) You yourselves also know, you Philippians, that in the beginning of the Good News, when I departed from Macedonia, no assembly shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you only.
1 Thessalonians 1:7 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/1-7.htm) so that you became an example to all who believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1 Thessalonians 1:8 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/1-8.htm) For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out; so that we need not to say anything.
1 Thessalonians 4:10 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-10.htm) for indeed you do it toward all the brothers who are in all Macedonia. But we exhort you, brothers, that you abound more and more; 1 Timothy 1:3 (http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-3.htm) As I urged you when I was going into Macedonia, stay at Ephesus that you might command certain men not to teach a different doctrine,

If Greece is same as Macedonia why dont they use the name Greece?



Bible Study Lesson for Acts 20:1-6: Through Macedonia and Greece

Acts chapter 20 can be broken up into two short and one long section. Verses 1-6 briefly describes Paul's travels in Macedonia and Greece. Verses 7-12 describes the story of how a young man named Eutychus was raised from the dead. Verses 13-38 describes Paul's emotional farewell to the elders from Ephesus.

Read Acts 20:1. Paul, remember, is currently on his third missionary journey. { Hand out books with the third missionary journey maps. Ask them to find Ephesus on their maps } My commentary said Paul had four main things he wanted to accomplish: 1) Leave Ephesus; 2) preach in Troas on his way to Macedonia { Ask the group to find Troas on their maps }; 3) meet Titus at Troas with a report from Corinth. This is based on 2 Corinthians 2:12-13; and 4) continue collecting an offer for the church in Judea. This is based on 1 Corinthians 16:1-4, 2 Corinthians 8:1-4. The Jerusalem (http://www.associatedcontent.com/topic/19209/jerusalem.html) church, at this time, may have been poverty stricken either because of famine or because of persecution.

Read Acts 20:2-3. Luke does not give us specifics about Paul's travel through Macedonia into Greece, but it is believed that the three months spent in Greece was in Corinth. { Ask group to look at their maps again and trace Paul's estimated path from Ephesus to Corinth } My commentary said that these three months were probably the winter months, when it would not have been safe to sail. It is during his time in Corinth that he would have received the collection for the relief of the Judean Christians. { Put up symbol of money bags on flannel board }

When Paul's three months are up, he wants to sail back to Syria (that is Antioch), but discovers a plot against him. My commentary proved this information: "The Jews were determined to take Paul's life; also, at this time he was carrying the offering for the Christians in Judea, so there would have been a temptation for theft as well. The port at Cenchrea would have provided a convenient place for Paul's enemies to detect him as he entered a ship to embark for Syria." So, at the last minute, it sounds like, he changes his mind and decides to retrace his route through Greece and Macedonia.

Why is Macedonia and Greece mentioned as separate countries/nationalities?
Because they are different nations/nationality since the beginning of existence.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament)
The New Testament (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Koine_Greek): Καινὴ Διαθήκη, Kainē Diathēkē) is the second major division of the Christian biblical canon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Christian_biblical_canons), the first such division being the much longer Old Testament (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Testament).
The common languages spoken by both Jews and Gentiles in the Holy Land at the time of Jesus were Aramaic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aramaic_of_Jesus), Koine Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Koine_Greek), and to a limited extent a colloquial dialect of Mishnaic Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mishnaic_Hebrew). All of the books that would eventually form the New Testament were written in Koine Greek, the vernacular dialect in the Roman provinces (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_province) of the Eastern Mediterranean (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mediterranean) at the time. These books were later translated into other languages, most notably, Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Latin), Syriac (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Syriac_language), and Coptic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Coptic_language). However, some of the Church Fathers imply or claim that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_Gospel_of_Matthew) or Aramaic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aramaic). Nevertheless, the Gospel of Matthew known today was composed in Greek and is neither directly dependent upon nor a translation of a text in a Semitic language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Semitic_languages), though the citation of texts from the Old Testament (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Testament) demonstrates that the author of the Gospel of Matthew did know Hebrew.

DOES NOT SAY IT WAS WRITTEN BY ANY GREEK (Koine was not exclusive for Greeks only).

DejaVu
28-01-11, 20:53
Why the Byzantine Empire was not a "Greek Empire"?

Within the last two centuries, we have seen the western literature label the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) as "Greek Empire". Once again this is largely to the inventions and distortions of the western historians of the 19th century, who also falsely ascribed "Greek" ethnicity to the ancient Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/MacedoniansStyledGreeks.html). These people took the fact that Greek was used as the language of the Empire and declared that the Empire was ruled by "Greeks", had "Greek" armies, "Greek" churches, and "Greek" art. In other words they spoke of the Byzantine Empire as a "Greek Empire", a view which had been completely supported and propagated by the modern Greeks as well.
Along with distorting the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, the labeling of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire into "Greek" is one of the greatest fabrications of the western and modern Greek writers (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/criticism.html). Although it is true that Greek was used as the language of the Empire, that can not be taken as proof that the empire was "Greek". Latin was the original official language, imposed by the Romans who established and ruled the Roman Empire. In 395 AD when the Roman Empire split into western and eastern (Byzantine), Latin continued to be used as the official language but in time it was replaced by Greek as that language was already widely spoken among the Eastern Mediterranean nations as the main trade language. Yet the Emperors, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, although they spoke Latin and Greek, where not exclusively of Greek ethnicity. The Empire was made up of many nationalities - Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, etc. The Greeks composed only a small portion of this multi-ethnic Empire and evidence shows that they did not posses much of the power either, for we know exactly who were the Byzantine Emperors, and we know they were not ethnic Greeks.

The earlier Byzantine Emperors were Romans but in time people of different ethnic backgrounds ruled this multi-ethnic empire. It is known that the empire reached its zenith while it was ruled by the Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/RomanMacedonia/macedonianemperors.html) while the Macedonian Dynasty (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/RomanMacedonia/MacedonianEpoch.htm) was on power for almost two centuries. Other dynasties that ruled were the Syrian, Armenian, Phrygian (Amorian), and other emperors were of various nationalities. Having in mind the ethnic diversity of the empire, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, also came from the many different nationalities, and were not exclusively ethnic Greeks. The Byzantine historians often speak of "Macedonian army", "Thracian army", "Roman army". The Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, had to speak Latin and Greek in order to communicate among themselves, but they must have used their original languages to communicate within their own ethnic boundaries, which of course does not make them "Greeks".

Thus it is inaccurate to call the Byzantine Empire a "Greek Empire" and falsely ascribe its greatness to the Greeks, when in fact it is the non-Greeks who gave the greatest contribution in its progress. The inaccurate 19th century western historiography (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/MacedoniansStyledGreeks.html) needs another major revision, just like the one it already went through regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/ModernHistorians.html). Otherwise it will continue to be unreliable and biased.

iapetoc
28-01-11, 20:57
Oh really????

and what geneticks say about You?

I know
They can't say somethink Because you are a God

Only you have the truth and the others are Fake
Even the Book of Genessis is FAKE

:grin:

oh yeah????

that is byzantine,
Did Ancient Makedonians also speak Greek to comunicate with the regions and provinces that WIll CONQUER ????
So you say that Ancient Makedonians 'learn' Greek at 800 BC in order to Comunicate with the Persian Provinces that conquer at 300 BC ............. :shocked:
:thinking: Maybe Persians Spoke Greek :grin:
wow they left their 'slavic' language which Fyrom speaks, learn Greek to communicate and then 1500 years after they return to their previus language, right???

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :laughing:

Absolutely Funny


Hahaha

Acts 17 read

in Makedonia Paul
sais that Greeks lived

it was a separated Region not nation

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :laughing::laughing:

Tel me something
A Ccretan is dressed different than an Athenean
what does that mean???
Cretan is Not Greek??????
oh no maybe if paul show a Cretan man then probably Crete was another country

that greece is that Area from Ancienty
Greece is an area the Nation is Hellenes

the Makedonia Is Hellenick not Greek
make that clear
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f0/Periferia_Stereas_Elladas.png


make that clear that is Greece as geografical Area, Sterea Ellada

the nation of Greek is Hellenes
the stupidity of foreign languages name us as Greeks
our Inner Name is Hellenes

and it is not the Greek Republic
But the Hellenic Republic
now do you understand the difference?

The coloured area is Hellas not Greece
Greece is only the red Area + Attica

the people of that area were named Γρεσοι - Gres ->Greek
find out Homer names


Besides Hellanas river is there,
The Hellenes make games there before Olympia
so the name is after the Ellenes or as we say that time Ellanioi
and later after Olympia Ellenes

iapetoc
28-01-11, 21:41
Dejavu tell me something

why Alexander horse was Vukefalas
and not Bolglavata?

:thinking:

why the city was Thessalo-niki (Thessalian Victory)
and not Thessalo-pobeda

why the old capital was Aiges = goats
and not Kozi

DejaVu
28-01-11, 22:32
Acts 17 Commentary
http://www.preceptaustin.org/acts_17_commentary.htm

Thessalonians
http://www.christianadulteducation.com/pages/bible_summaries/nt/1thessalonians.pdf

Silas in the Bible (Not Greek)
http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p66.htm
Silas was a leading member of the first Christian community in Jerusalem and a colleague of Paul. In the epistles 2 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians, he is called by a Roman name, Silvanus. He might have been a Roman citizen (Acts 16:37). In Jerusalem he was a prophet who preached (Acts 15:32) and was sent to Antioch, along with Paul and Barnabas, to convey resolutions adopted at the council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:22).

Grecians - Greeks (Not Greeks)
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/G/GRECIANS;+GREEKS/
In the Old Testament the word "Grecians" occurs but once (Joel 3 (4):6). For references to Greece in the Old Testament see JAVAN. In the King James Version of the Old Testament Apocrypha "Grecians" and "Greeks" are used without distinction, e.g. 1 Macc 1:10; 6:2; 8:9; 2 Macc 4:15,36. Thus, in 1 Macc 1:1, Alexander the Great is spoken of as king of Greece, and in 1 Macc 1:10 the Macedonian empire is called "the kingdom of the Greeks" (basileia Hellenon). In 2 Macc 13:2 the army of Antiochus, king of Syria, is called "Grecian" (dunamis Hellenike), and in 2 Macc 6:8 the "Greek cities" (poleis Hellenides) are Macedonian colonies. Reference is made in 2 Macc 6:1 to an aged Athenian who was sent by Antiochus the king charged with the duty of Hellenizing the Jews; in 2 Macc 9:15 Antiochus vows that he will make the Jews equal to the Athenians; in 1 Macc 12 through 14, reference is made to negotiations of Jonathan, the high priest, with the Spartans, whom he calls brethren, seeking the renewal of a treaty of alliance and amity against the Syrians. With the spread of Greek power and influence, everything not specifically Jewish was called Greek; thus in 2 Macc 4:36; 11:2; 3 Macc 3:3,1 the "Greeks" contrasted with the Jews are simply non-Jews, so called because of the prevalence of Greek institutions and culture, and "Greek" even came to be used in the sense of "anti-Jewish" (2 Macc 4:10,15; 6:9; 11:24).
In Isa 9:12 the Septuagint reads tous Hellenas, for Pelishtim, "Philistines"; but we are not therefore justified in assuming a racial connection between the Philistines and the Greeks. Further light on the ethnography of the Mediterranean
basin may in time show that there was actually such a connection; but the rendering in question proves nothing, since "the oppressing sword" of Jer 46:16 and 50:16 is likewise rendered in the Septuagint with "the sword of the Greeks" (machaira Hellenike). In all these cases the translators were influenced by the conditions existing in their own day, and were certainly not disclosing obscure relations long forgotten and newly discovered.
In the New Testament, English Versions of the Bible attempts to distinguish between (Hellenes), which is rendered "Greeks," and (Hellenistai), which is rendered "Grecians" or "Grecian Jews," or in the Revised Version, margin "Hellenists," e.g. Acts 6:1; 9:29. These latter were Jews of the Dispersion, who spoke Greek (see HELLENISM; HELLENIST), as distinguished from Palestinian Jews; but since many of the latter also spoke Greek by preference, the distinction could in no sense be absolute. Indeed in Jn 7:35, "the Dispersion among (the Revised Version, margin, Greek "of") the Greeks," can hardly refer to any but "Grecian Jews" (Hellenistai), although Hellenes is used, and in Jn 12:20 the "Greeks" (Hellenes) who went up to worship at the feast of the Passover were almost certainly "Grecian Jews" (Hellenistai). Thus, while English Versions of the Bible consistently renders Hellenes with "Greeks," we are not by that rendering apprised of the real character of the people so designated. This difficulty is aggravated by the fact, already noted in connection with the Old Testament Apocrypha, that, in consequence of the spread of Hellenism, the term Hellenes was applied not only to such as were of Hellenic descent, but also to all those who had appropriated the language of Greece, as the universal means of communication, and the ideals and customs collectively known as Hellenism. The latter were thus in the strict sense Hellenists, differing from the "Grecians" of English Versions of the Bible only in that they were not of Jewish descent. In other words, Hellenes (except perhaps in Jn 7:35 and 12:20, as noted above) is, in general, equivalent to ta ethne, "Gentiles" (see GENTILES). The various readings of the manuscripts (and hence the difference between the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American)) in 1 Cor 1:23 well illustrate this. There is consequently much confusion, which it is quite impossible, with our limited knowledge of the facts in particular cases, to clear up. In general, it would seem probable that where "Greeks" are comprehensively contrasted with "Jews," the reference is to "Gentiles," as in Acts 14:1; 17:4; 18:4; 19:10,17; 20:21; Rom 1:16; 10:12; 1 Cor 1:22-24 (the Revised Version (British and American) "Gentiles," representing ethnesin; Gal 3:28; Col 3:11. In Mk 7:26 the woman of Tyre, called "a Greek (the Revised Version, margin "Gentile") a Syrophoenician," was clearly not of Hellenic descent. Whether Titus (Gal 2:3) and the father of Timothy; (Acts 16:1,3) were in the strict sense "Greeks," we have no means of knowing. In Rom 1:14, "I am debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians," there is an undoubted reference to Greeks strictly so called; possibly, though by no means certainly, the "Greeks" of Acts 21:28, alluding to Trophimus the Ephesian (Acts 21:29), are to be taken in the same sense. References to the Greek language occur in Jn 19:20 (Lk 23:38 is properly omitted in the Revised Version (British and American)); Acts 21:37; Rev 9:11.
In Acts 11:20 the manuscripts vary between Hellenistas, and Hellenas (the King James Version "Grecians," the Revised Version (British and American) "Greeks"), with the preponderance of authority in favor of the former; but even if one adopts the latter, it is not clear whether true Greeks or Gentiles are intended.
William Arthur Heidel

DejaVu
28-01-11, 22:38
Grecians - Greeks (All non-Jews)
http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/G/GRECIANS;+GREEKS/
In the Old Testament the word "Grecians" occurs but once (Joel 3 (4):6). For references to Greece in the Old Testament see JAVAN. In the King James Version of the Old Testament Apocrypha "Grecians" and "Greeks" are used without distinction, e.g. 1 Macc 1:10; 6:2; 8:9; 2 Macc 4:15,36. Thus, in 1 Macc 1:1, Alexander the Great is spoken of as king of Greece, and in 1 Macc 1:10 the Macedonian empire is called "the kingdom of the Greeks" (basileia Hellenon). In 2 Macc 13:2 the army of Antiochus, king of Syria, is called "Grecian" (dunamis Hellenike), and in 2 Macc 6:8 the "Greek cities" (poleis Hellenides) are Macedonian colonies. Reference is made in 2 Macc 6:1 to an aged Athenian who was sent by Antiochus the king charged with the duty of Hellenizing the Jews; in 2 Macc 9:15 Antiochus vows that he will make the Jews equal to the Athenians; in 1 Macc 12 through 14, reference is made to negotiations of Jonathan, the high priest, with the Spartans, whom he calls brethren, seeking the renewal of a treaty of alliance and amity against the Syrians. With the spread of Greek power and influence, everything not specifically Jewish was called Greek; thus in 2 Macc 4:36; 11:2; 3 Macc 3:3,1 the "Greeks" contrasted with the Jews are simply non-Jews, so called because of the prevalence of Greek institutions and culture, and "Greek" even came to be used in the sense of "anti-Jewish" (2 Macc 4:10,15; 6:9; 11:24).
In Isa 9:12 the Septuagint reads tous Hellenas, for Pelishtim, "Philistines"; but we are not therefore justified in assuming a racial connection between the Philistines and the Greeks. Further light on the ethnography of the Mediterranean
basin may in time show that there was actually such a connection; but the rendering in question proves nothing, since "the oppressing sword" of Jer 46:16 and 50:16 is likewise rendered in the Septuagint with "the sword of the Greeks" (machaira Hellenike). In all these cases the translators were influenced by the conditions existing in their own day, and were certainly not disclosing obscure relations long forgotten and newly discovered.
In the New Testament, English Versions of the Bible attempts to distinguish between (Hellenes), which is rendered "Greeks," and (Hellenistai), which is rendered "Grecians" or "Grecian Jews," or in the Revised Version, margin "Hellenists," e.g. Acts 6:1; 9:29. These latter were Jews of the Dispersion, who spoke Greek (see HELLENISM; HELLENIST), as distinguished from Palestinian Jews; but since many of the latter also spoke Greek by preference, the distinction could in no sense be absolute. Indeed in Jn 7:35, "the Dispersion among (the Revised Version, margin, Greek "of") the Greeks," can hardly refer to any but "Grecian Jews" (Hellenistai), although Hellenes is used, and in Jn 12:20 the "Greeks" (Hellenes) who went up to worship at the feast of the Passover were almost certainly "Grecian Jews" (Hellenistai). Thus, while English Versions of the Bible consistently renders Hellenes with "Greeks," we are not by that rendering apprised of the real character of the people so designated. This difficulty is aggravated by the fact, already noted in connection with the Old Testament Apocrypha, that, in consequence of the spread of Hellenism, the term Hellenes was applied not only to such as were of Hellenic descent, but also to all those who had appropriated the language of Greece, as the universal means of communication, and the ideals and customs collectively known as Hellenism. The latter were thus in the strict sense Hellenists, differing from the "Grecians" of English Versions of the Bible only in that they were not of Jewish descent. In other words, Hellenes (except perhaps in Jn 7:35 and 12:20, as noted above) is, in general, equivalent to ta ethne, "Gentiles" (see GENTILES). The various readings of the manuscripts (and hence the difference between the King James Version and the Revised Version (British and American)) in 1 Cor 1:23 well illustrate this. There is consequently much confusion, which it is quite impossible, with our limited knowledge of the facts in particular cases, to clear up. In general, it would seem probable that where "Greeks" are comprehensively contrasted with "Jews," the reference is to "Gentiles," as in Acts 14:1; 17:4; 18:4; 19:10,17; 20:21; Rom 1:16; 10:12; 1 Cor 1:22-24 (the Revised Version (British and American) "Gentiles," representing ethnesin; Gal 3:28; Col 3:11. In Mk 7:26 the woman of Tyre, called "a Greek (the Revised Version, margin "Gentile") a Syrophoenician," was clearly not of Hellenic descent. Whether Titus (Gal 2:3) and the father of Timothy; (Acts 16:1,3) were in the strict sense "Greeks," we have no means of knowing. In Rom 1:14, "I am debtor both to Greeks and to Barbarians," there is an undoubted reference to Greeks strictly so called; possibly, though by no means certainly, the "Greeks" of Acts 21:28, alluding to Trophimus the Ephesian (Acts 21:29), are to be taken in the same sense. References to the Greek language occur in Jn 19:20 (Lk 23:38 is properly omitted in the Revised Version (British and American)); Acts 21:37; Rev 9:11.
In Acts 11:20 the manuscripts vary between Hellenistas, and Hellenas (the King James Version "Grecians," the Revised Version (British and American) "Greeks"), with the preponderance of authority in favor of the former; but even if one adopts the latter, it is not clear whether true Greeks or Gentiles are intended.
William Arthur Heidel


Acts 17 Commentary
http://www.preceptaustin.org/acts_17_commentary.htm

http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p66.htm (http://www.aboutbibleprophecy.com/p66.htm)
Silas was a leading member of the first Christian community in Jerusalem and a colleague of Paul. In the epistles 2 Corinthians and 1 Thessalonians, he is called by a Roman name, Silvanus. He might have been a Roman citizen (Acts 16:37). In Jerusalem he was a prophet who preached (Acts 15:32) and was sent to Antioch, along with Paul and Barnabas, to convey resolutions adopted at the council of Jerusalem (Acts 15:22).

http://www.bible-history.com/isbe/G/GENTILES/
jen'-tilz (goy, plural goyim; ethnos, "people," "nation"): Goy (or Goi) is rendered "Gentiles" in the King James Version in some 30 passages, but much more frequently "heathen," and oftener still, "nation," which latter is the usual rendering in the Revised Version (British and American), but it, is commonly used for a non-Israelitish people, and thus corresponds to the meaning of Gentiles." It occurs, however, in passages referring to the Israelites, as in Gen 12:2; Dt 32:28; Josh 3:17; 4:1; 10:13; 2 Sam 7:23; Isa 1:4; Zeph 2:9, but the word (`am) is the term commonly used for the people of God. In the New Testament ethnos is the word corresponding to goy in the Old Testament and is rendered "Gentiles" by both VSS, while (laos) is the word which corresponds to `am. The King James Version also renders Hellenes, "Gentiles" in six passages (Jn 7:35; Rom 2:9,10; 3:9; 1 Cor 10:32; 12:13), but the Revised Version (British and American) renders "Greeks."
The Gentiles were far less sharply differentiated from the Israelites in Old Testament than in New Testament times. Under Old Testament regulations they were simply non-Israelites, not from the stock of Abraham, but they were not hated or despised for that reason, and were to be treated almost on a plane of equality, except certain tribes in Canaan with regard to whom there were special regulations of non-intercourse. The Gentile stranger enjoyed the hospitality of the Israelite who was commanded to love him (Dt 10:19), to sympathize with him, "For ye know the heart of the stranger, seeing ye were strangers in the land of Egypt" (Ex 23:9 the King James Version). The Kenites were treated almost as brethren, especially the children of Rechab (Jdg 1:16; 5:24; Jer 35). Uriah the Hittite was a trusted warrior of David (2 Sam 11); Ittai the Gittite was captain of David's guard (2 Sam 18:2); Araunah the Jebusite was a respected resident of Jerusalem. The Gentiles had the right of asylum in the cities of refuge, the same as the Israelites (Nu 35:15). They might even possess Israelite slaves (Lev 25:47), and a Gentileservant must not be defrauded of his wage (Dt 24:15). They could inherit in Israel even as late as the exile (Ezek 47:22,23). They were allowed to offer sacrifices in the temple at Jerusalem, as is distinctly affirmed by Josephus (BJ, II, xvii, 2-4; Ant, XI, viii, 5; XIII, viii, 2; XVI, ii, 1; XVIII, v, 3; CAp, II, 5), and it is implied in the Levitical law (Lev 22:25). Prayers and sacrifices were to be offered for Gentilerulers (Jer 29:7; Baruch 1:10,11; Ezr 6:10; 1 Macc 7:33; Josephus, BJ, II, x, 4). Gifts might be received from them (2 Macc 5:16; Josephus, Ant, XIII, iii, 4; XVI, vi, 4; BJ, V, xiii, 6; CAp, II, 5). But as we approach the Christian era the attitude of the Jews toward the Gentiles changes, until we find, in New Testament times, the most extreme aversion, scorn and hatred. They were regarded as unclean, with whom it was unlawful to have any friendly intercourse. They were the enemies of God and His people, to whom the knowledge of God was denied unless they became proselytes, and even then they could not, as in ancient times, be admitted to full fellowship. Jews were forbidden to counsel them, and if they asked about Divine things they were to be cursed. All children born of mixed marriages were bastards. That is what caused the Jews to be so hated by Greeks and Romans, as we have abundant evidence in the writings of Cicero, Seneca and Tacitus. Something of this is reflected in the New Testament (Jn 18:28; Acts 10:28; 11:3).
If we inquire what the reason of this change was we shall find it in the conditions of the exiled Jews, who suffered the bitterest treatment at the hands of their Gentile captors and who, after their return and establishment in Judea, were in constant conflict with neighboring tribes and especially with the Greek rulers of Syria. The fierce persecution of Antiochus IV, who attempted to blot out their religion and Hellenize the Jews, and the desperate struggle for independence, created in them a burning patriotism and zeal for their faith which culminated in the rigid exclusiveness we see in later times.
H. Porter

DejaVu
28-01-11, 22:48
Game is over now with your fake understanding of the Bible.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 23:08
Serbian falsification of "Tsar Dushans Code"
http://www.macedonianspark.com/en/history-ideology/macedonianhistory/391-2010-11-09-11-46-06

In Skopje in 1349 Stefan Dushan issued its own Code, which, unfortunately, is not preserved in original, but dozen copies were saved and that’s how we get the information about this historic figure.

Dushan's Code begins with the words "Code of Reverend and in Christ loving Macedonian Tsar Stefan,Serbian ruler, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Vlach, Dalmatian, Arbanas, and many other regions and countries." This is noted in the Zagrebian (Croatian), Ravanician (Serbia), Sofian (Bulgaria) transcript of Dushan's Code. Dushan's Code with Stefan Dusan as a Macedonian king to be find in the book the Lj. Stojanovic: (Lj. Stojanovic, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi. Knj. III, Beograd 1905, p. 41 (nbr.4949).) Even the famous Edith Durham in her book "High Albania", first edition, printed in the distant 1909 talk about the Macedonians, where she quoted Dushan's Code "Code of Tsar Dusan Macedonian, autocrat of Serbia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Wallachia, .." (Edith Durham, "High Albania" First published in 1909, page 294. In London Edward Arnold Publishers to the India Office 1909).

As we can see, King Dusan proclaimed himself for Macedonian king, but not because he was Macedonian, but for someone to proclaim himself a king, or emperor in medieval times had to take the crown of a kingdom that existed previously. And what kingdom would that be if not the kingdom of Samuel! Knowing that Kosara, daughter of Samuel married DuklaPrince John Vladimir, who was a prisoner at Samuil's royal palace. However, lucky for him, thanks to the love of Kosara, he was pardoned and became son in-law of Samuel, but also part of the family.
Is there any greater evidence that would challenge the contention of some Bulgarian historians that Samuil’s state was Bulgarian? According to medieval law, the king's crown could be obtained only from the patriarch. When Emperor Dusan governed the whole territory of Macedonia in his state was found two autocephalous Archbishopry, the one of Ohrid and Pech. Soon Dusan decided to proclaim himself a king. Therefore it was necessary the Pech archdiocese to be declared for patriarchate. It was helped by the Ohrid Archbishop and the TrnovoPatriarch. The both Holy Synods and the Patriarch of Trnovo came, and both of them proclaimed Joannicius II for patriarch, and then the three church dignitaries coronate Dusan in a king. The participation of the Macedonian superior - Ohrid Archbishop was considered as a substitute for the Ecumenical Patriarch, who canceled his attendance in the coronation. Any changes in the Serbian state and church were done with the participation and the blessing of the Macedonian archbishop.
Whether in this case we should close our eyes when the same Macedonian church today is denied? This historical fact, in the 19th century disturbed the Serbian intelligence, which was in its infancy, that’s why there are many falsifications of the Serbian medieval documents in their re-publishing in the 19th century.

Mikloshich Franz, who along with Vuk Karadzic for the first time published documents of the medieval Serbian history, in the monumental work "Monumenta Serbica", the title of King Dusan from the Sofian and Ravanic entry is communicated as "Stephen the faithful in Lord Christ and Greek King" (F. Miklošič, Monumenta Serbica, str 154). But in the transcripts of Dushan's Code clearly states “Stephen the faithful in Lord Christ and Macedonian King". From there comes our suspicion, that wherever is mentioned the Macedonian name, Serbian historians and transcribers of the Serbian medieval documents of the 19th century, the word "Macedonian" where replacing with "Greek" or "Romaic”. To this we can add the historical fact of King Dusan published in the oldest history of South Slavic peoples" Historia Turcica "(1502) from Petanchich Felix (from Dubrovnik), who was miniaturist and manager of Budim scriptorium and primarily an outstanding diplomat at the court of Matija Korvin and Vladislav II. In "Historia Turcica" is stated that King Dusan is king of the Macedonians and Rascians, in original "Macedonum Rasianorum Caesar" (Historia Turcica (1502), Municipal Library in Nuremberg, 31.2). Petanchich Felix (1455-1517) is considered one of the best turkologyst of all time. Unfortunately, Tsar Dusan in our history books is presented as the king of the Serbs and Greeks, ie. in the propaganda which our neighbors are serving for our history since the 19th century. Furthermore, King Volkasin (father of King Mark) and his brother Uglesha in the Synodicon of Tsar Boril (Boril's Synodicon) from the 14th century, is represented as a Macedonian king. I do not know the reason why in our history textbooks do not tell this fact and our children learn that the current Macedonian are pure Slavs, and began to call themselves Macedonians until the 19th century, that we are a new nation and that we, as Slavs, are so close with the Serbs and Bulgarians, perhaps so we can dissolve in their nations.

iapetoc
28-01-11, 23:16
the army of Antiochus, king of Syria, is called "Grecian" (dunamis Hellenike), and in 2 Macc 6:8 the "Greek cities" (poleis Hellenides) are Macedonian colonies.

dEJAvUUNDERSTAND IT
mAKEDONIANS WERE NOT GREEKS, THEY WERE HELLENES
A CRETAN IS NOT A GREEK IS A HELLENAS
A CYPRIOT IS NOT A GREEK IS A HELLENAS

IN THAT CYPRIOTS MAKE A VERY GOOD SEPARATION
HELLADITES AND HELLENES (GREEKS AND HELLENES)

THE TRANSLATION IN OTHER LANGUAGES MAKES EQUAL GREECE AND HELLAS

for example a texan is USA a NYer also , so if i see a texan how i will describe him?
i show an Usaer and i went there ....
or it is better to say i show a Texan and went to Texas and speak to Usaers

in Acts 17 names clearly Hellenidon Hellenon (female male Greeks) the residents,

it is simple, what else you want me to explain you.


They came to Thessalonica (See notes and pictures (http://www.answers.com/topic/thessaloniki))- This city was the capital of the province of Macedonia and had a population of some 200,000. It was a major seaport city and an important commercial center, rivaled only by Corinth in this area of the world. Thessalonica was located on several important trade routes, and it boasted an excellent harbor. The city was predominantly Greek, even though it was controlled by Rome. Thessalonica was a “free city,” which meant that it had an elected citizens’ assembly, it could mint its own coins, and it had no Roman garrison within its walls.
http://www.preceptaustin.org/acts_17_commentary.htm

The bible says that Thessaloniki Makedonia was a Hellenick City


besides you wrote a 50 lines to tell me that a woman at tyre was not greek but syrophoenian!!!!
wowowow

acts 17

1 When Paul and his companions had passed through Amphipolis and Apollonia, they came to Thessalonica, where there was a Jewish synagogue. 2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures, 3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said. 4 Some of the Jews were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, as did a large number of God-fearing Greeks and quite a few prominent women.

10 As soon as it was night, the believers sent Paul and Silas away to Berea. On arriving there, they went to the Jewish synagogue. 11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true. 12 As a result, many of them believed, as did also a number of prominent Greek women and many Greek men.

THE original says Hellenes not Greeks

iapetoc
28-01-11, 23:39
Dejavu
tell me something

why don't you use your Makedonian alphabet

and tell about Ptolemy???/ Птоломеј

what was he, a greek an egyptian or hellen

What?
Stephan Dusan a king of Greeks,

we have him as an invator here
he was Never Greek

Nemanjić
Vlastimirović (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Vlastimirovi%C4%87).

Following the elevation of members of the dynasty to the status of Emperors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor) in 1346, the title became Tsar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar) of All Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs), Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians), Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) and Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians). The family crest was a bicephalic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicephalic) argent eagle on a red shield, inherited from the Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) Paleologus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleologus) dynasty.
The House of Nemanjić ruled the Serb lands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serb_lands) between c. 1166 and 1371.



so he was not Serb, but Makedonian you say!!!

besides in the Greek books He is never mentioned as a Greek or Greek Makedonian, but as a Serbian conqueror
Greeks never claim Dusan
it is between fyrom and serbia, and i m not good at that good

Elias2
29-01-11, 00:11
You're comming to a forum where peopel discuss genetics an you think you will get away calling greek sub-saharan? Here are the genetic studies of sub-saharan genetics in europe;

The haplotypes have been detected in Portugal (3%), Spain (0.42%), Germany (2%), Austria (0.78%), France (2.5% in a very small sample), Italy (0.45%), Sardinia (1.6%) and Greece (0.27%).

Post more propaganda south slav

DejaVu
29-01-11, 00:41
The Greek Europeans?

Ann Hum Biol. (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:AL_get(this,%20'jour',%20'Ann%20Hum%20Biol.') ;) 2010 Jul 29.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20666704)

Abstract
Background: The HLA polymorphism is a powerful genetic tool to study population origins. By analysing allele frequencies and haplotypes in different populations, it is possible to identify ethnic groups and establish the genetic relationships among them. Aim: The Berber (endogenous Tunisians) HLA class I and class II genotypes were analysed and compared with those of Mediterranean and Sub-Saharan African communities using genetic distances, Neighbour-Joining dendrograms, correspondence and haplotype analysis. Subjects and methods: One hundred and five unrelated Berbers were typed for HLA class I (A, B) and class II (DRB1, DQB1) gene alleles using reverse dot-blot hybridization. Results: High frequencies of A*0201 (24.76%), A*3402 (22.38%) and B*44 (32.85%) alleles were recorded for Berbers, the highest recorded for Mediterranean and North African populations. This study shows a close relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to other Tunisians, North Africans and Iberians. Conclusion: The apparent relatedness of Tunisian Berbers to present-day (North African) Tunisians, Algerians and Moroccans suggests that the Arab invasion of North Africa (7(th)-11(th) centuries AD) did not significantly impact the genetic makeup of North Africans. Furthermore, Tunisian Berbers appear to be closely related to Iberians (Spaniards and Basques), indicating that the 7(th) century AD gene flow of invaders was low in Iberians and that the main part of their genetic pool came after the Northward Saharan migration, when hyper-arid conditions were established in Sahara (before 6000 BC). Other studied populations belong to the old Mediterranean substratum, which has been present in the area since pre-Neolithic times. This study indicates a higher proportion of Iberian than Arab ancestry in Tunisian Berbers, which is of value in evaluating the evolutionary history of present-day Tunisians. Greeks seem to share genetic HLA features (Chr 6) with Sub-Saharans. The relatedness of Greeks to Sub-Saharans has been confirmed by other studies based on chromosome 7 genetic markers.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract).
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans... Hajjeja 2005 also claims that "Our study shows that the Greeks are separate from other Mediterranean populations and tend to cluster with Sub-Saharans (Figs. 2 and 3). This result confirms the Sub-Saharan origin of Greeks". Di Giacomo 2003 reported for Y Hg A found in Mitilini-Greece. Al-Zahery 2003 also separates the Macedonians/Europeans from the Greeks.....or vice versa.
http://files.myopera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/HLA%20genes%20in%20Southern%20Tunisians%204a.jpg

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16473309)
HLA genes in Southern Tunisians (Ghannouch area) and their Relationship with other Mediterraneans.
A. Hajjej a, S. Hmida a,*, H. Kaabi a,A. Dridi a,A. Jridi a, A. El Gaa1ed b, K. Boukef a
a National Blood Transfusion Centre, Tunis, Tunisia
b Laboratory of Immunogenetics, Department of Biology, University of Tunis, El Manar

Y-Chromosome Haplotypes in the Greek–Turkish Area
http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347402u768310m3/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/h347402u768310m3/)

Measuring European Population Stratification with Microarray Genotype Data
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/ (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852743/)


WHERE IS YOUR LINK - Elias2?

DejaVu
29-01-11, 00:47
Why are you angry if the Greeks belong to the sub-saharans? Are you rasist?

STOP TO DENY YOUR HERITAGE JUST BE PROUD, WE ARE ALL SAME IN ROOT!

Garrick
29-01-11, 00:47
Encyclopædia Britannica

www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/564852/Stefan-Dusan (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/564852/Stefan-Dusan)

Stefan Dušan, also called Stefan Uroš IV, English Stephen Dushan, or Stephen Uroš IV (b. 1308—d. Dec. 20, 1355), king of Serbia (1331–46) and “Emperor of the Serbs, Greeks, and Albanians” (1346–55), the greatest ruler of medieval Serbia, who promoted his nation’s influence and gave his people a new code of laws. ... (56 of 1402 words)

DejaVu
29-01-11, 00:54
Encyclopædia Britannica

www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/564852/Stefan-Dusan (http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/564852/Stefan-Dusan)

Stefan Dušan, also called Stefan Uroš IV, English Stephen Dushan, or Stephen Uroš IV (b. 1308—d. Dec. 20, 1355), king of Serbia (1331–46) and “Emperor of the Serbs, Greeks, and Albanians” (1346–55), the greatest ruler of medieval Serbia, who promoted his nation’s influence and gave his people a new code of laws. ... (56 of 1402 words)

The Serbian falsification of history version.

Original Version
Mikloshich Franz, who along with Vuk Karadzic for the first time published documents of the medieval Serbian history, in the monumental work "Monumenta Serbica", the title of King Dusan from the Sofian and Ravanic entry is communicated as "Stephen the faithful in Lord Christ and Greek King" (F. Miklošič, Monumenta Serbica, str 154). But in the transcripts of Dushan's Code clearly states “Stephen the faithful in Lord Christ and Macedonian King". From there comes our suspicion, that wherever is mentioned the Macedonian name, Serbian historians and transcribers of the Serbian medieval documents of the 19th century, the word "Macedonian" where replacing with "Greek" or "Romaic”.

Dushan's Code begins with the words "Code of Reverend and in Christ loving Macedonian Tsar Stefan,Serbian ruler, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Vlach, Dalmatian, Arbanas, and many other regions and countries." This is noted in the Zagrebian (Croatian), Ravanician (Serbia), Sofian (Bulgaria) transcript of Dushan's Code. Dushan's Code with Stefan Dusan as a Macedonian king to be find in the book the Lj. Stojanovic: (Lj. Stojanovic, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi. Knj. III, Beograd 1905, p. 41 (nbr.4949).) Even the famous Edith Durham in her book "High Albania", first edition, printed in the distant 1909 talk about the Macedonians, where she quoted Dushan's Code "Code of Tsar Dusan Macedonian, autocrat of Serbia, Bulgaria, Hungary, Wallachia, .." (Edith Durham, "High Albania" First published in 1909, page 294. In London Edward Arnold Publishers to the India Office 1909).

The falsification is the use of "Greek King" instead of "Macedonian King".

iapetoc
29-01-11, 01:23
Dejavu tell me something

why Alexander horse was Vukefalas
and not Bolglavata?

:thinking:

why the city was Thessalo-niki (Thessalian Victory)
and not Thessalo-pobeda

why the old capital was Aiges = goats
and not Kozι

DejaVu tell me something
was Alexander the Great Sub-Saharan also????
maybe Makedonian Dusan speaked Koine?????

no he spoked Swahili as Alexander

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing: :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

iapetoc
29-01-11, 01:46
Dejavu

the is a Connection of Makedonian G2a3 and French Kings via merovignian etc

in that connection it is proved THAT NAPOLEON WAS MAKEDONIAN

and the Francais erase the Makedonian and Write above FRANCAIS

Is IT TRUE,????
Francais are also Fake they deny Napoleon's Makedonian Origin
:annoyed::annoyed: :angry::angry:



Also another truth is that Mehmet II was born in Adrianopole by Makedonians but he converted islam
Turk hide well that secret
Mehmet II WAS MAKEDONIAN

:confused2::confused2: :angry::angry::angry:




besides it is well know that Alexander invasion to asia was a civil war
XERXES the MAKEDONIAN and Darius the MAKEDONIAN was defending his throne against a rabel named Alexander


:angry::angry::angry::angry:
These fake Persians and their Fake History


History must be written again for Fyrom
In that History Makedonians were speachless until 600 AD, and then finnaly found the slavic language mother of all slavic languages,
so they teach Serbs Bulgarians Croats Sloveni Slovaki Pollish the slavian language which is the Makedonic Language,
Victor A Friedman

"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"

DejaVu
29-01-11, 02:00
Macedonian language exist from 8th or early 7th century BC and its not included in Greek languages because of unknown origin.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom))
It seems that the first Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians) state emerged in the 8th or early 7th century BC under the Argead Dynasty (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Argead_Dynasty), who, according to legend, migrated to the region from the Greek city (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Polis) of Argos (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Argos) in Peloponnesus (thus the name Argead). The Macedonian tribe ruled by the Argeads, was itself called Argead (which translates as "descended from Argos").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language)
Macedonian is the official language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Language) of the Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) and a member of the Eastern group of South Slavic languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/South_Slavic_languages). Standard Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Standard_Macedonian) was implemented as the official language of the Socialist Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Socialist_Republic_of_Macedonia) in June 1945 after being codified (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Codification_(linguistics)) in the 1940s, and a thriving literary tradition (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_literature) has since developed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language)
Ancient Macedonian was the language of the ancient Macedonians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians). It was spoken in the kingdom of Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon) during the 1st millennium BC and it belongs to the Indo-European group of languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Indo-European_languages). It gradually fell out of use during the 4th century BC, marginalized by Koine Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Koine_Greek), the lingua franca of the Hellenistic period (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hellenistic_period).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek)
Ancient Greek is the historical stage in the development of the Greek language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language) spanning the Archaic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Archaic_Greece) (c. 9th–6th centuries BC), Classical (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Classical_Greece) (c. 5th–4th centuries BC), and Hellenistic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hellenistic_civilization) (c. 3rd century BC – 6th century AD) periods of ancient Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greece) and the ancient world (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Classical_antiquity). It is predated in the 2nd millennium BC by Mycenaean Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mycenaean_Greek_language). Its Hellenistic phase is known as Koine (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Koine_Greek) ("common") or Biblical Greek, and its late period mutates imperceptibly into Medieval Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Medieval_Greek). Koine (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Koine_Greek) is regarded as a separate historical stage of its own, although in its earlier form it closely resembles Classical Greek. Prior to the Koine period, Greek of the classic and earlier periods included several regional dialects (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek_dialects).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg/660px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0f/AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg)

Macedonian (Ancient - Modern): Bukephalos, Bukefal
Macedonian (Ancient - Modern): Thessalonica, Salonica, Solun (Thessaloniki never existed before)

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Regions/AegeanSea.html (http://www.mlahanas.de/Greece/Regions/AegeanSea.html)
Etymology
In ancient times there were various explanations for the name Aegean. It was said to have been named after the town of Aegae, or Aegea, a queen of the Amazons (http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Amazons.html) who died in the sea, or Aegeus (http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Aegeus.html), the father of Theseus (http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Mythology/Theseus.html), who drowned himself in the sea when he thought his son had died.


In 351 the great Athenian orator Demosthenes delivered the first of his Philippics, a series of speeches warning the Athenians about the Macedonian menace to Greek liberty. The great Athenian statesman, spoke of Philip II: "... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."

Elias2
29-01-11, 02:20
I don't need links anymore because its become very appearent that you don't care for information you just want to post your porpaganda where ever you can. I don't think you care for the country of FYROM, you just want to tell people your 'macedonian' because it sound exotic or whatnot and makes you feel better about yourself. All your "proof" dejavu is useless because its been proven you lie in your posts which means your credibility is zero.

Keep positng propaganda though, south slavs of FYROM are still living under Tito's shadow and using his tricks. Vardarska for the Vardarskans! ;)

Garrick
29-01-11, 02:22
DejaVu
I gave a very relevant source, Encyclopaedia Britannica, and you say that this is a falsification.

Yet it is a very respectable encyclopaedia that respects the whole world
.
I can you set the relevant sources, encyclopedias, history books, as you want, and it writes the same everywhere, and you negate it, why, because it is contrary to your wishes.

See DejaVu, someone can to set the thousands of posts, but the number itself is not very important.

More is worth one relevant post as the Encyclopaedia Britainnica than thousands of irrelevant, without difficulty and dubious.

Elias2
29-01-11, 02:24
Garrick don't bother reasoning with him, his ignroance is set.

DejaVu
29-01-11, 02:30
DejaVu
I gave a very relevant source, Encyclopaedia Britannica, and you say that this is a falsification.

Yet it is a very respectable encyclopaedia that respects the whole world
.
I can you set the relevant sources, encyclopedias, history books, as you want, and it writes the same everywhere, and you negate it, why, because it is contrary to your wishes.

See DejaVu, someone can to set the thousands of posts, but the number itself is not very important.

More is worth one relevant post as the Encyclopaedia Britainnica than thousands of irrelevant, without difficulty and dubious.

If its ok for you to live with lies then continue to do so, I wont.

Serbian spirit and Greek spirit is broken when the original evidence is presented, if you cant take it anymore then your are a bunch of living liars/falsification fanatics and are going to continue to be that.
The choice is yours.

iapetoc
29-01-11, 02:31
Garrick and elias2

wait you see that , President Obama is Makedonian But CIA hides it in purpose

DejaVu is right

Dejavu if I change Nationality and Become a MAKEDONIAN THEN I WILL BE EUROPEAN??????

Garrick
29-01-11, 02:32
Garrick don't bother reasoning with him, his ignroance is set.

You're right.

Elias2
29-01-11, 02:38
Garrick and elias2

wait you see that , President Obama is Makedonian But CIA hides it in purpose



lol I think Joan of Arc, Gandi were macedonians too, as well as the blue power ranger :grin:

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS5aTCZ8vWPn5dnNnPLZFankSKD7wLLo JkV97mfcaUQ_PxebEd23A&t=1

iapetoc
29-01-11, 02:41
DejaVu Greeks never claimed Dussan as Greek
For Us it was always a Foreign Ruler
understand that,
although later some of his sons marries palaiologos family and also share the name
for us he was a ruler a foreigner understand that,
dusan claimed Tsar of Greeks
not the Greeks claimed Dusan as tsar



HAHAHA HA

Elias :good_job: :good_job: :good_job:

DejaVu
29-01-11, 02:42
Tsar Dusan is Serb, Macedonians are not claiming him as Macedonian its about falsification of "Macedonian King" to "Greek King" to erase the existence of the Macedonians in history.

Elias2
29-01-11, 02:48
Serbian spirit and Greek spirit is broken when the original evidence is presented, if you cant take it anymore then your are a bunch of living liars/falsification fanatics and are going to continue to be that.

Your right, My spirit is destroyed! My life is over! :petrified:. I guess all I can do now is watch TV and wallow in my greef!. I hear the main character of Pokemon is a real macedonian! I wish I were him! :laughing:

http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lblrg5Qix11qatp2c.jpg

Elias2
29-01-11, 02:52
More real Macedonians! LOL I'm not posting in this thread anymore. Peace! :laughing:

http://www.verbal-sid.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/teletubbies_20091030_seoulbeats.png

iapetoc
29-01-11, 03:03
Elias these real Makedonians are not sub-saharans,
they are Australian Vacant Origin

DejaVu
29-01-11, 19:04
Tsar Samuel, Bulgarian or Macedonian? (Armenian?)
http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/blog/samuel.html

Todd B. Krause
An issue that frequently arises in connection with the LRC's lesson series Old Church Slavonic Online (http://www.utexas.edu/cola/centers/lrc/eieol/ocsol-0-X.html) is the national or cultural or other affiliation of the famous Tsar Samuel (or Samuil, or somewhat more faithfully Samoilŭ). In the context of the lesson series, Samuel is mentioned as author of a particular inscription that provides the oldest dated text in the Old Church Slavonic language. To be clear: that is the only reason for Samuel's mention in the lesson series, which concerns itself primarily with the language of a particular region and time.
Nevertheless, the series editors have on numerous occasions been reminded by readers that Samuil's status as a prominant early figure in Bulgarian and Macedonian history is a great source of either pride or animosity. We would like to state flatly that the Linguistics Research Center does not espouse any particular viewpoint re: Samuil's association with any modern or historically recent political entity.



There are several themes that recur in email that our readers send us, and in the spirit of furthering modern understanding of historical cultures it is worth addressing some of these themes in light of modern scholarship.

Samuil's ethnic origin: The perennial question is whether Samuil was Bulgarian or Macedonian. The simple fact is that it is difficult to answer this question, because what those terms mean now is not necessarily what they would have meant to Samuil. Moreover, one of the few primary sources in any way contemporary with Samuil, written by Asolik, states that Samuil was in fact Armenian. As Adontz (1938) points out, the name of Samuil's mother, Ripsime, is peculiar to a specific region in Armenia, and his father's name Nicolas is found in numerous regions at that time, among them Armenia. Thus an Armenian origin for Samuil is certainly a credible, though perhaps not the only, reading of the evidence presented to date.
Samuil's cultural self-identification: As many point out, what we in the modern era think about Samuil's cultural affiliation is moot if we know what he thought of himself. Unfortunately, that's not easy to determine. Though Samuil and later members of his family used, in reference to their cultural affiliation, terms we might now render as "Bulgarian," given the political climate and power struggles of his time it is quite difficult to ascertain to what degree this term truly specified a traditional culture, or to what degree it might rather have specified a political entity defining the empire. It is quite possible that "Bulgarian" meant to Samuil something similar to what "Roman" likely meant to Charlemagne, who neither lived in nor hailed from Rome.
General import: The above points hopefully provide an inkling of the grave difficulties that surround the interpretation of the small amount of information we have concerning Samuil. Certainly there is room for continued refinement in our understanding. But we would do well to keep in mind points raised by Aleksandar Panev:
"The differences in the various historical accounts of Samuel, who ruled a short-lived kingdom centered in Prespa and Ohrid from 976 to 1014, reflect recent nationalistic controversies and scholarly discourses that have emerged in the scholarly literature of modern Macedonia and Bulgaria. The dispute focuses on Samuel's ethnic affiliation and the alleged nationality of his subjects. On one hand, scholars from the Republic of Macedonia tend to emphasize the cultural, social, and even linguistic distinctiveness of Samuel's kingdom. On the other, Bulgarian scholars emphasize the fact that Samuel used the Bulgarian name for himself and his kingdom and the beginnings of his career in southwestern Macedonia are rarely mentioned. Both approaches clearly aim to support present-day nationalistic claims and agendas. The Macedonians need this approach in order to demonstrate that they have long been a separate nationality with their own language and history; the Bulgarian interpretation, on the other hand, supports the claim that Macedonians are essentially Bulgarians by ethnic origin, as well as by cultural and linguistic characteristics. Both approaches are anachronistic. It is indeed difficult to speak about the national consciousness of a short-lived medieval ruler and his subjects and to discuss his impact on national development at a time when the majority of the population was illiterate and boundaries were fluid. Moreover, the only primary source that discusses the ethnic affiliation of Samuel asserts that he was an Armenian by origin. Bulgarian and Macedonian ethnic groups only began to acquire national consciousness in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. Only during the past century and a half have Southeastern European Slavs gradually begun to assert their nationality and unify around several urban centers. Thus, the national affiliation of Samuel can neither be determined nor could it be relevant to today's situation in the region." (Panev, 2005)
http://faq.macedonia.org/images/car.samuil.mapa.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Byzantine_Macedonia_1045CE.svg/423px-Byzantine_Macedonia_1045CE.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Byzantine_Macedonia_1045CE.svg)
Themes in the Byzantine Empire under Basil II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuel_of_Bulgaria


http://www.macedonianspark.com/en/hi...11-09-11-46-06 (http://www.macedonianspark.com/en/history-ideology/macedonianhistory/391-2010-11-09-11-46-06)
As we can see, King Dusan proclaimed himself for Macedonian king, but not because he was Macedonian, but for someone to proclaim himself a king, or emperor in medieval times had to take the crown of a kingdom that existed previously. And what kingdom would that be if not the kingdom of Samuel! Knowing that Kosara, daughter of Samuel married DuklaPrince John Vladimir, who was a prisoner at Samuil's royal palace. However, lucky for him, thanks to the love of Kosara, he was pardoned and became son in-law of Samuel, but also part of the family.
Is there any greater evidence that would challenge the contention of some Bulgarian historians that Samuil’s state was Bulgarian? According to medieval law, the king's crown could be obtained only from the patriarch. When Emperor Dusan governed the whole territory of Macedonia in his state was found two autocephalous Archbishopry, the one of Ohrid and Pech. Soon Dusan decided to proclaim himself a king. Therefore it was necessary the Pech archdiocese to be declared for patriarchate. It was helped by the Ohrid Archbishop and the TrnovoPatriarch. The both Holy Synods and the Patriarch of Trnovo came, and both of them proclaimed Joannicius II for patriarch, and then the three church dignitaries coronate Dusan in a king. The participation of the Macedonian superior - Ohrid Archbishop was considered as a substitute for the Ecumenical Patriarch, who canceled his attendance in the coronation. Any changes in the Serbian state and church were done with the participation and the blessing of the Macedonian archbishop.
Whether in this case we should close our eyes when the same Macedonian church today is denied? This historical fact, in the 19th century disturbed the Serbian intelligence, which was in its infancy, that’s why there are many falsifications of the Serbian medieval documents in their re-publishing in the 19th century.

Cups found in Samuils Fortress
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samuil's_Fortress,_Ohrid
http://i125.photobucket.com/albums/p78/thexunit/Suncups.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Ohrid_Ancient_macedonian_sun_symbol_ceramics1.jpg/800px-Ohrid_Ancient_macedonian_sun_symbol_ceramics1.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Ohrid_Ancient_macedonian_sun_symbol_ceramics1.jpg)
http://www.mav.mk/images/issues/2009-09/original/samoilova-(4).jpg (http://www.mav.mk/images/issues/2009-09/original/samoilova-(4).jpg)
http://www.mav.mk/article.php?lang=en&article=14
Samuil’s Fortress (Pasko Kuzman)
Relief (megharic) ceramic cups with representation of the solar symbol of the ancient Macedonians (2nd century BC), discovered in the same cistern.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vergina_Sun


Bulgarian Falsification of Macedonian history

The stone inscriptions case
http://www.makedonika.org/whatsnew/THE%20STONE%20INSCRIPTIONS%20CASE.pdf

1. This is the fabricated stone inscription by "Tsar Samuil" found in Voden (Edessa), Greece.
http://g.imagehost.org/0258/VODEN2.jpg

2. This is the stone inscription by Ivan Vladislav found in Bitola, Macedonia.
http://g.imagehost.org/0575/BITOLIA.gif

THE TEXT
1. This is the text translated in Bulgarian from the fake stone in Voden:
1. V samodurjavnia grad Voden Az Samuil, veren v Hrista
2. Car na Bulgarite i Romeite, ot boga izpraten samodurjec
3. na vsichki strani ot Rashka do Makedonia, Tesalia
4. i Gurcia , vnuk na staria Shishman, koito beshe Han na
5. jitelite na Turnovo, postroih tozi molitven dom, za da
sushtestvuva v vechnostta. Osnovite biaha polojeni v epohata
na Ieremia, koito beshe pruv hristianin ot Melnik.
6. Postroen be (tozi hram) za grehovete i spasenieto na bulgarite
7. ot prokletia Satana, koito proizhojda ot Konstantinopol.
8. Tozi hram be zavurshen prez 14-tata godina ot caruvaneto mi
s pomoshtta na sveshtennika Gavril, koito e duhoven pastirna jitelite na Muglen.
9. Napisano prez godina 6497 ot suzdavaneto na sveta (989 g.)5-ti Indiktion.

Rough translation into English:

In the city of Voden, I Samuil, faithul to Christ, Emperor of the Bulgars and Romans, Godsent emperor of all lands from Raska to Macedonia, Thessaly and Greece, nephew of the old Shishman who was Khan of the inhabitants of Trnovo, built this prayer home, to exist forever. The foundation were laid in the epoch of Jeremiah, who was the first hristian in Melnik. This tample was built for the sins and saving of the Bulgars from damned Satan, who comes from Constantinople. This tample was finished during the 14th year of my rule with the help of monk Gavril, who is the spiritial shepherd of the inhabitants of Meglen. Written during year 6497 from the foundation of the world (989 A.D), 5th Indiction.


2. This is the text translated in Bulgarian from the stone in Bitola:

"Prez godina 6523 (1015-1016) ot sutvorenieto na sveta obnovi se tazi krepost, zidana i pravena ot Ioan, samodurjec bulgarski, s pomoshtta i s molitvite na presvetata vladichica nasha Bogorodica i chrez zastupnichestvoto na dvanadesette i na vurhovnite apostoli. Tazi krepost be napravena za ubejishte i za spasenie i za jivota na bulgarite. Zapochnata beshe krepostta Bitolia prez mesec oktomvri v 20-i den, a se zavurshi v mesec... kraia. Tozi samodurjec beshe bulgarin po rod, vnuk na Nikola i na Ripsimia blagovernite, sin na Aaron, koito e brat na Samuil, caria samodurjaven, i koiito dvamata razbiha v
Shtipon (Ihtiman) gruckata voiska na car Vasilii, kudeto be vzeto zlato... , a tozi v... car razbit bide ot car Vasilii v godina 6522 (1014) ot sutvorenieto na sveta v Kliuch i pochina v kraia na liatoto."

Rough translation into English:

During the year 6523 (1015-1016) from the beggining of the world this fortress is being renewed, built and made by Ioan, Bulgarian autocrator, with the help and prayers of our Virgin Mary and through the representation of the twelve and supreme apostles. This fortress was made as haven and deliverance of the lives of the Bulgarians. The fortress Bitolia was started during the month of October 20th and was completed in the month of... ending. This autocrator was Bulgarian by birth, nephew of Nikola and Ripsimia, son of Aaron, who is brother to Samuil, the tsar autocrator, with whom they smashed in Shtipon (Ihtiman) the Greek army of tsar Vasili, where they took gold..., and this tsar was destroyed by tsar Vasili in the year of 6522 (1014) from the beginning of the world in Kliuch and died at the end of the summer

3. The Story

During September 1997 a Greek national with "Bulgarian identity" from Voden named Stoidis
appeared in Sofia at the National Historical Museum and declared to the Director Bozidar
Dimitrov that he has in his possession a stone inscription found in Voden (Edessa) during
the reconstruction of a local church. The Director declared the inscription a fake made
by Bulgarian nationalists in the 19th Century. Apparently the whole story was published
in the Bulgarian daily Kontinent on "02.10.1997."


The "Bitola inscription" was discovered during the demolition of a mosque in Bitola during the
1950's and so far nobody doubted its veracity. Considering the Voden case the Bitola stone
has to be viewed in new light. Chances that it was written by the same authors are indeed very
high. We have also to ask about other products from the same authors as well as regard
the whole Bulgarian historiography concerning Macedonia with great suspicion.




The legend of Basil the Bulgar-slayer.
http://www.deremilitari.org/REVIEWS/Stephenson_basil.htm
In chapter five, Stephenson explores how the contemporary authors referred to Basil. An extensive survey of the Byzantine sources reveal that instead of Voulgaroktonos, Basil was generally referred to as porphyrogennetos or "born in the purple" to show he was the reigning emperor. Otherwise he was referred to as "the younger" or "the second". Thus Basil was known to the chroniclers and others as Basil II. This trend continued in the literature well beyond the life of Basil. Stephenson also reveals that this was well known even to biographers in the seventeenth century.

It is not until chapter six that the mystery is revealed in why Basil transforms from porphyrogennetos into the Voulgaroktonos. As one might suspect it has more to do with political changes, particularly in the ways that Bulgars were viewed in the twelfth century, rather than any particular historical activities. However, Basil image would decline again in later centuries, particularly with the rise of the Turks and a decline in the threat from the Bulgars.

DejaVu
29-01-11, 20:01
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_of_Macedon
Perseus (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Περσεύς) (ca. 212 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/212_BC) - 166 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/166_BC)) was the last king (Basileus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Basileus)) of the Antigonid dynasty (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Antigonid_dynasty), who ruled the successor state (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Successor_state) in Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon) created upon the death of Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great). He also has the distinction of being the last of the line, after losing the Battle of Pydna (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Pydna) on 22 June 168 BC; subsequently Macedon came under Roman (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Rome) rule.

The Antigonid kingdom was dissolved, and replaced with four republics. Andriscus of Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Andriscus_of_Macedon) broke off the Roman rule for about a year, but was defeated in 148 BC by the Romans. In 146 BC, the four republics were dissolved, and Macedon officially became the Roman province of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_province_of_Macedonia).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_province_of_Macedonia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/08/Map_Macedonia_province.png
The province of Macedonia within the Roman Empire, ca. 117 AD

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/ad/Macedonia_ad400.png/624px-Macedonia_ad400.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Macedonia_ad400.png)
Roman provinces,400 AD

DejaVu
29-01-11, 20:41
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png)
The "Sklavinias" in the Balkans, 7th–8th centuries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae)
Sklavinia(i) (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Σκλαβινίαι, Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Latin_language): SCLAVINIAE) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name Sclaveni (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sclaveni), which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The Sclaviniae of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations:

The Serbs (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbs) became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (hypekooi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mixobarbaroi)) and eventually became independent.
The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire), they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of Bulgarians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgarians).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/RomanEmpire_117.svg/800px-RomanEmpire_117.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/RomanEmpire_117.svg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2d/Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png/800px-Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Invasions_of_the_Roman_Empire_1.png)

Collapse of the Western Empire (395–476)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/476eur.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/64/476eur.jpg)

What was slavic people?
Was all Sclaviniae same people, or was it again a roman way to describe all people outside the borders of Rome as it was before, Barbarians (Germania was not inhabited only of todays Germans)?
Did the Romans ask the people what they were, dont think so, they did not care.

DejaVu
29-01-11, 22:01
SLAVS?
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract
Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...

Abstract
HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks.

iapetoc
29-01-11, 22:54
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...

DejaVu did anyone claim opposite?
I said about ancient Thracians trbes

BUT DOES MILENA 2001 SAYS WHICH MAKEDONIANS? (SLAVIC OR GREEK), ARE SONS OF ANCIENTS MAKEDONIANS?

Besides I can read Bulgarian in tsar Cymeon stone,
Not Alexanders alphabet But Cyrrilic


During Simeon's rule, Bulgaria spread over a territory between the Aegean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Sea), the Adriatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Sea) and the Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea),[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria#cite_note-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria#cite_note-bakalov-7)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria

He conquered Makedonia, He was an Invader,
Just follow slavic Kings to prove your Betrayal to your Ancestors Argeians Dynasty
or you may want to prove that you are a Bulgarian claim another Ethnicitie

LeBrok
30-01-11, 02:03
hahaha
I am G2a3
or G2a2, i will find tomorrow the results

What are trying to do people, I am Proud for What I AM

Lol, that's really funny and sad at the same time. You and DejaVu are like cousins, and both Makedonians, and can't find a common goal, understanding to live peacefully like brothers.

On other hand, thanks to you two, I learnt some history of this region.

Later ;)

Garrick
30-01-11, 03:06
Lol, that's really funny and sad at the same time. You and DejaVu are like cousins, and both Makedonians, and can't find a common goal, understanding to live peacefully like brothers.

On other hand, thanks to you two, I learnt some history of this region.

Later ;)

LeBrok

Iapetoc is Macedonian (Greece).

DejaVu is Slavic Macedonian (Macedonia, FYROM).

The ancient Macedonians according to historical sources, most likely the Dorian tribe Makednoi.
SlavoMacedonians are closest Serbs according to research haplogroup.

Scientific analysis of DNA results
Dieckens decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html)

Labels are as follows:

GRE: Greece
SER: Serbia
SMA: Slavic Macedonia (FYROM)
HER: Herzegovina
BOS: Bosnia
ALB: Albania
KAL: Kosovo Albanians
SLO: Slovenia
CRO: Croatia
UKR: Ukraine
TUR: Turkey
HUN: Hungary
ROM: Romania
ITA: Italy

You can see his results on map.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/416/princomp5or.jpg

I tried to introduce changes for Serbia and Montenegro, MNE (based on Mirabal et al 2010) and Albania, GAL Gege Albanians and TAL Tosk Albanians (according Ferri et al, 2010).

The differences are as follows:

SER has moved somewhat closer to the left to HER and BOS;

If would be introduced in the picture GAL (Geges Albanians) that would be slightly lower than the KAL;

If would be injected also a TAL (Tosk Albanians) that would not be much moved over in comparison to ALB;

If would be introduced Montenegro it would be about halfway between the diagonal and GAL SER.


Despite these changes for Serbia would be the closest to the left Bosnia (BOS) again the right Macedonia FYROM apropos Macedonia FYROM is by far the closest to Serbia.


In the original Dieckens paper Serbia and Macedonia FYROM are almost folded, which indicates a high congruence of population.

LeBrok
30-01-11, 06:12
I was marley commenting on their similarities. They are both G2a3 and both Macedonians. Most likely they are both autosomaly closely related, but they act and fight like one is a dog the other a cat. Their divide is only cultural.

DejaVu
30-01-11, 17:41
Wrong Results

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data



AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,6%____________12,7%
G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
N 3,3% _______________ 0%
L 0,6% _______________ 0%

Serbia 94,3% Total - Serbs
Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - Ethnic Macedonians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe)
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg)
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html



http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html)
"Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

Yes, there is a connection between ethnic Macedonians and Serbs but even with Bulgarians and other near areas, the connection is way back before Serbia existed. Can be explained by Sclaviniae.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae)
Sklavinia(i) (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Σκλαβινίαι, Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Latin_language): SCLAVINIAE) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name Sclaveni (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sclaveni), which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The Sclaviniae of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations:

The Serbs (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbs) became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (hypekooi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mixobarbaroi)) and eventually became independent.
The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire), they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of Bulgarians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgarians).
The Byzantines broadly grouped the numerous Slav tribes into two groups: the Sklavenoi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sklavenoi) and Antes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Antes_(people)). Apparently, the Sklavenoi group were based along the middle Danube, whereas the Antes were at the lower Danube, in Scythia Minor (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Scythia_Minor). Some, such as Bulgarian scholar Zlatarsky, suggest that the first group settled the western Balkans, whilst offshoots of the Antes settled the eastern regions (roughly speaking). From the Danube, they commenced raiding the Byzantine Empire from the 520s, on an annual basis. They spread about destruction, taking loot and herds of cattle, seizing prisoners and taking fortresses. Often, the Byzantine Empire was stretched defending its rich Asian provinces from Arabs, Persians and Turks. This meant that even numerically small, disorganised early Slavic raids were capable of causing much disruption, but could not capture the larger, fortified cities on the Aegean coast.
In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thrace) and Illyricum (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyricum), pillaging cities and settling down. By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a Macedonian Sclavinia. As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579. Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Monophysites). By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Peloponnese), Attica (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Attica), Epirus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Epirus_(region)), leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591-605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (Main article: Maurice's Balkan campaigns (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Maurice%27s_Balkan_campaigns)).
In 785, Constantine VI conquers the Sclaviniae of Macedonia ('Sclavenias penes Macedoniam').

The Macedonian Slavs, Branichevans, Moravians, Timochans and Draguvites were absorbed by the Serbs and Bulgars. (Same people are in Serbian and Bulgarian population and rest of the neighbours today, but how many is the question?)



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract)
Abstract
HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances, neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed.

Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...

But if Macedonian Sclaviniae were real slavs how come they are one of the oldest European inhabitants?

Garrick
30-01-11, 18:42
Wrong Results

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data



AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,6%____________12,7%
G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
N 3,3% _______________ 0%
L 0,6% _______________ 0%

Serbia 94,3% Total - Serbs
Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - Ethnic Macedonians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe)
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/conten...4/F2.large.jpg (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg)
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html



(I repeat this with another topic.)
DejaVu
Even better, you added missed.

And is there any difference?

Of course that does not exist and it is true that the Serbs and FYROM Macedonians are very close peoples.

Probably you not carefully read Dieckens analysis.

Dieckens
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html)
"Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

Essential data are for five haplogroups that he took into consideration, because I1 and G2 do not change much the result, remains practically the same place (but complicates the analysis).


DejaVu
You use big words (ie. profanity) completely useless, and as you can see, I never reciprocate by big words, but soon you will see below the discussion of issues on which we discuss what are in fact the key issues.

DejaVu
30-01-11, 18:46
There is no real fact what you are claiming that ethnic Macedonians are same as Serbs. You even tried to fabricate the genetic results, there is no trust in any Serbs today and there is enuff of evidence that Serbs have tried to erase the name Macedonians, thanks to your nationalist propaganda. All Balkan countries had enuff of you Serbs (does not mean Serbs are hated). And the test from Dienekes Pontikos, he is a Greek from Turkey, even that explains alot when he used wrong name "slavic Macedonians" who dont exist. There is only ethnic Macedonians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)

Garrick
30-01-11, 18:51
I just presented a scientific analysis and commented on the result in two sentences, as is evident from the picture and nothing more.

DejaVu
30-01-11, 19:03
Lookalikes?

Macedonian National Football Team
http://www.macedonianfootball.com/images/stories/macteamjpgft6.jpg

Serbian National Football Team
http://i32.tinypic.com/2ywtxk2.jpg

Greek National Football Team
http://wiki.phantis.com/images/d/da/Euro2004finalteam.jpg (http://wiki.phantis.com/images/d/da/Euro2004finalteam.jpg)

Bulgarian National Football Team
http://www.bulgarian-football.com/gif15/and-bul_0-3_empics_team.jpg

Albanian National Football Team
http://www.albanianphotos.net/images/photos/thumbnails/Albania%20National%20Team%202008-2009_600x0_w_3aa3bb71cc4c285a6d9f63cfdc763fdc.jpg

iapetoc
30-01-11, 19:09
DejaVu you are still WRONG

The data you Give includes areas as Tettovo were the main ethnicitie is ALBANIAN GEG
Areas like Monaster(Bitola) were Greeks Lived
And areas like Eugeleia(Yevgeli) were Greeks Lived,

If you considered that Albanians are 25-30 % of the population in Fyrom
and Have even 46% at nearby Gegs in Kossovo (E-V13)

THEN THE RESULTS ON SLAVIC MAKEDONIAN ARE MORE SIMILAR TO SERBIA AND BULGARIA THAN GREECE.

Besides the fall of J2 as we go north proves that Greek Makedonians never pass above Bardar iron gates (Demirkapi) as I already said
and the Treaty of 1913 is just a political trick,
cause the ancient Greek Makedonia Has common with Slavic Makedonia only the name,
only the E-V13 of albanians if it is expelled then The I2a2 raises to same with Serbia



I1

I2a

I2b

R1a

R1b

G2a

J2

J1

E1b1b

T (+ L)

Q

N1c1

3.5

7

3.5

13.5

10

8

19.5

3

28

4

0

0

the above results is nearGreek Makedonia Thessalia
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

It is obvius that I2a is dropping Dramatically as we go south
The I2a mainly has to with areas of Slavonic speaking people,

how yes no 2
30-01-11, 19:25
Wrong Results
Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)
Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)
I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data
AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.
Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)
Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)
I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,6%____________12,7%
G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
N 3,3% _______________ 0%
L 0,6% _______________ 0%

actually both your numbers and Garrick numbers are incorrect as in those researches results are for Macedonia and Serbia, not for Macedonians and Serbs...
Thing is that Macedona still has large Albanian minority.. big part of E-V13, I1 and J2b2 percentages in results for Macedonia comes from Albanians as it is evident from this work led by Macedonians scientists:
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343


btw. making minority group consisting of in total as low as 21 people (not enough sample for single group on narrow geographic area) of different origin is laughable...

anyway, this shows you that in Macedonia ethinc Macedonians are distinguished by I2a2 group same one that is dominant in Serbia, Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croatia and even Slovenia, while Albanians are distinguished by haplogroups E, J2b2 and I1... R1a and G having similar spread in Albanians and Macedonians is indication that it is an earlier spread...which is in correspondence with extra high R1a in Greek Macedonia... in other words Ancient Macedonians were probably dominantly R1a and G people...

R1b is significantly higher in Albanians, but is present in all groups meaning that probably Dardanians already had some R1b (as other Thracians did) and that Roman's invaders brought more of it (as Vlach's tend to show more R1b in south Balkan)

what distinguish Macedonians from other neighbouring populations is ~2% of haplogroup T, which is contrary to claim from Maciamo's table absent in Serbia as K* from work of Pericic maps to N+Q+L in work of Mirabal


we should compare genetics of FYR Macedonia with the one of Greek Macedonia...
but what is evident is that FYR Macedonians share dominant and distinguishing (the one that makes them stick out from environment) haplogroup with other south Slavs... so, if you want to prove continuity with ancioent Macedonians, you should focus on finding if there is continuity between south Slavs and ancient Macedonians...

Garrick
30-01-11, 19:26
DejaVu you are still WRONG

The data you Give includes areas as Tettovo were the main ethnicitie is ALBANIAN GEG
Areas like Monaster(Bitola) were Greeks Lived
And areas like Eugeleia(Yevgeli) were Greeks Lived,

If you considered that Albanians are 25-30 % of the population in Fyrom
and Have even 46% at nearby Gegs in Kossovo (E-V13)

THEN THE RESULTS ON SLAVIC MAKEDONIAN ARE MORE SIMILAR TO SERBIA AND BULGARIA THAN GREECE.

Besides the fall of J2 as we go north proves that Greek Makedonians never pass above Bardar iron gates (Demirkapi) as I already said
and the Treaty of 1913 is just a political trick,
cause the ancient Greek Makedonia Has common with Slavic Makedonia only the name,
only the E-V13 of albanians if it is expelled then The I2a2 raises to same with Serbia

Iapetoc
Yes, Dienekes Pontikos did a scientific analysis of the results and according to him, the population of Macedonia is very close to the population of Serbia (SER and SMA positions in the image).

I presented Dienekes's analysis on the post #315, gave a link and image and everyone can see and analyze.

Garrick
30-01-11, 19:35
actually both your numbers and Garrick numbers are incorrect as in those researches results are for Macedonia and Serbia, not for Macedonians and Serbs...
Thing is that Macedona still has large Albanian minority.. big part of E-V13, I1 and J2b2 percentages in results for Macedonia comes from Albanians as it is evident from this work led by Macedonians scientists:
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343


btw. making minority group consisting of in total as low as 21 people (not enough sample for single group on narrow geographic area) of different origin is laughable...

anyway, this shows you that in Macedonia ethinc Macedonians are distinguished by I2a2 group same one that is dominant in Serbia, Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croatia and even Slovenia....

how yes no
Ok.

But and I wrote that the data for Serbia and Macedonia and I was very clear that data are about a population of Serbia and Macedonia, and not on ethnicity.

And on another topic I made it clear that the former kingdoms and republics Yugoslavia had the similarity (someone can interpret that had a meaning).

how yes no 2
30-01-11, 19:58
how yes no
Ok.

But and I wrote that the data for Serbia and Macedonia and I was very clear that data are about a population of Serbia and Macedonia, and not on ethnicity.

And on another topic I made it clear that the former kingdoms and republics Yugoslavia had the similarity (someone can interpret that had a meaning).

yes
but I am worried how will Deja-Vu accept that Macedonians are just south Slavs or, in fact that they are mostly Serb related/derived people...

though he himself with his G haplogroup may indeed origin from ancient Macedonians.... and it would be nice twist if he finds out that Iapetoc is his close cousin...

DejaVu
30-01-11, 20:06
Can the Serbs, Greeks, Albanians and other Balkan countries accept that their origin in their country is mixed from many different people?
If not, then its back to ZERO.

Garrick
30-01-11, 20:16
yes
but I am worried how will Deja-Vu accept that Macedonians are just south Slavs or, in fact that they are mostly Serb related/derived people...

though he himself with his G haplogroup may indeed origin from ancient Macedonians.... and it would be nice twist if he finds out that Iapetoc is his close cousin...

how yes no
This is a problem, since the communists from 1945 wrongly taught them and what is now catching for the ancient Macedonians.

On the one hand today's FYROM Macedonians tend not to be as they are, ie. to run away from closest the South Slav mostly Serb related roots.

On the other hand they tend to be who they are not, ie. the greater Greeks than real Greeks.

DejaVu
30-01-11, 20:21
And Serbia is almost finished, now its Vojvodinas time to break off from the FANATICS. The truth is hurting Serbians or fake Serbs who dont know their history.
Better be what you are then pretend. You cant live without the Nationalists like Vojislav Šešelj. Serbia the land of criminality, drugdealers and history falsification that cries on Russias feet to help the poor fanatics.

how yes no 2
30-01-11, 20:23
Can the Serbs, Greeks, Albanians and other Balkan countries accept that their origin in their country is mixed from many different people?
If not, then its back to ZERO.

that's clear to everyone I think....
point is that there is distinguishing factor, and for FYRM Macedonians and other south Slavs it is I2a2



And Serbia is almost finished, now its Vojvodinas time to break of from the FANATICS. The truth is hurting Serbians or fake Serbs who dont know their history.
Better be what you are then pretend.

lol, you call Serbs fanatics...
but if in average FYR Macedonians are being just one tenth of being fanatical on the level that you are on this forum, perhaps FYR Macedonians are much more Serbs than Serbs - according to your definition of Serbs as FANATICS... :)

DejaVu
30-01-11, 22:27
Remember what it says in the bible, what goes around comes around.


Here are our brothers the Serbians and the Bulgars just watch the videos and see what they have done to the Macedonians.

Macedonia after WW1 and its liberation in 1941.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-O_TVAAHSY
(Bulgarian liberation and new occupation)

Bulgarian terror over Macedonians during WWII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUUcixZEeRk


That is done to the Macedonians by their so-called brothers.
The real history will never be forgotten.

how yes no 2
30-01-11, 22:45
Remember what it says in the bible, what goes around comes around.
Serbs never did massively kill Macedonians... the crime of Serbs is only that they always saw Macedonians as what they probably are - Serb related or even Serb derived people
Bulgarians did massively kill both Serbs and Macedonians in both world wars... but in case of Serbs besides Bulgarians they were massively killed in both world wars also by Croats, but most Serbs still see Croats as brothers... while Bulgarians are considered different people and to Bulgarians only link are Macedonians that by some mystery seems to speak somewhat alike to Bulgarians...

I am fine with Macedonians being separate nations, most people from Serbia are... and I really like Macedonians as most people from Serbia do... in fact, Macedonians are probably our favorite neighbours... especially as many people in Serbia also have partial origin from Macedonia

but your posts here are a bit "like cacao" if you understand what I mean
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdIDMzbvrf4 (read lyrics)

or to translate it for others they are like an illusion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=21VbKgOM0gg

though, I have to confess that you and Iapetoc are great pair, like yin and yang, so you must be family
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNBbQ6bBJik

DejaVu
30-01-11, 22:51
The posts are related, when people are connecting thru genetics that in real life, they dont even have same nationality. That means learn the past and live in the present and the future.

Epithesi sto leoforeio (Dinamo Zagreb-Paok)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CzJJPwDAHe8
(Greek? PAOK supporters in bus on fire, some started to speak Macedonian "slavic").

Hitler: "Zu dem Operationen in Jugoslawien wurden ohne die Berücksichtigung deutsche Volk Zugehörigkeit so wie der Kroaten und die Mazedonier die soweit Sofort Frei gelassen waren"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsCsoUVvkJw
Hitler: "In the course of the operations against Yugoslavia, without counting the soldiers of German stock or the Croats and Macedonians who were immediately released"

Garrick
30-01-11, 22:59
Remember what it says in the bible, what goes around comes around.


Here are our brothers the Serbians and the Bulgars just watch the videos and see what they have done to the Macedonians.

Macedonia after WW1 and its liberation in 1941.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-O_TVAAHSY (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-O_TVAAHSY)
(Bulgarian liberation and new occupation)

Bulgarian terror over Macedonians during WWII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUUcixZEeRk (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUUcixZEeRk)


That is done to the Macedonians by their so-called brothers.
The real history will never be forgotten.


actually both your numbers and Garrick numbers are incorrect as in those researches results are for Macedonia and Serbia, not for Macedonians and Serbs...
Thing is that Macedona still has large Albanian minority.. big part of E-V13, I1 and J2b2 percentages in results for Macedonia comes from Albanians as it is evident from this work led by Macedonians scientists:
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343


we should compare genetics of FYR Macedonia with the one of Greek Macedonia...
but what is evident is that FYR Macedonians share dominant and distinguishing (the one that makes them stick out from environment) haplogroup with other south Slavs... so, if you want to prove continuity with ancioent Macedonians, you should focus on finding if there is continuity between south Slavs and ancient Macedonians...


Serbs never terrorized in Macedonia.

And this whole story here is stupid because it turns out that the main problem is antiquity.

And the only thing we try to say is to keep mind.

As much as someone tried from the SlavoMacedonians to create Ancient Macedonians.

But today Macedonia FYROM becomes a bi-national country, since the number of Albanians increased, so that they now make up 25 to 30% of the population.

The origin of Albanians is different from the Slav Macedonians which clearly show different haplogroups.

And if we talk about Macedonia today Albanians are unavoidable factor due to their numbers and influence, which is further strengthened by the Ohrid Agreement, so that haplogroups of Albanians and in general the impact Albanians in Macedonia FYROM is inevitable in the further considerations.

how yes no 2
30-01-11, 23:10
Macedonia after WW1 and its liberation in 1941.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e-O_TVAAHSY

btw. this clip is clearly Bulgarian propaganda in order to distance Macedonians from Serbs... it does not have much to do with reality... search history data, do not take youtube clips for granted.. you tube clips regarding history or politics are usually propaganda clips made by some fanatics or even teens, completely disregarding the facts.....

DejaVu
30-01-11, 23:18
Do you understand why I have aggressive posts?
To make you all understand the real facts, and you people constantly deny them? We know the history, what is done is done.

how yes no 2
30-01-11, 23:35
Do you understand why I have aggressive posts?
To make you all understand the real facts, and you people constantly deny them? We know the history, what is done is done.
I can understand your anti-Greek sentiment, as Slavic Macedonians in north Greece were forced to speek Greek and become Greeks...
I can understend your anti-Bulgarian sentiment, as Macedonians do not exist in Bulgaria anymore, they are now Bulgarians....

But the Macedonians from FYRM, the one that were in Serb states are only ones who now have own state and are not assimilated... so no, I do not understand your aggressive attitude towards Serbs.... In Serbia most people have very positive emotions regarding Macedonians, and many people have partial origin from Macedonia....

my point is if you want to prove continuity between Macedonians and ancient Macedonians, you can as well start by proving continuity of other south Slavs with previous inhabitants, as Macedonians are dominantly of same origin as other south Slavs...

back to haplogroups, R1a is according to Klyosov much much older in Macedonia, Bosnia and Serbia than in the rest of the world taken together....therefore it cannot be recent arrival....

and since R1a is also unusually high in Greek Macedonians,
it seems obvious that ancient Macedonians likely have been R1a dominant people...
in some sense.... many people who have later become Slavic do have R1a haplogroup, and since that haplogroup origins from Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia...in that sense you can see ancient Macedonians as genetically related to pre-Slavic people or even as origin of Slavic people.... but R1a in FYRM and Serbia is today bellow 15%...

so that does not imply genetic continuity....
for genetic continuity, you need I2a2 to be part of ancient Macedonians heritage, and I really don't know wheter that was really the case...
for culture continuity, you need to prove that ancient Macedonians did speak language akin to Slavic, while only their elite was Hellenic.... (e.g. to help you a bit: Macedonian king who was at first not allowed to take part in Olympic games because Macedonians are not Hellenic, did not use as argument that Macedonians are Hellenic, but that his family is Hellenic...after claiming that, he was allowed to participate... so, this incident makes it very clear that his familly was Greek, but that nation they ruled over was not...but this fact still does not relate those people to pre-Slavic people...and in fact you should search for exact phrasing in Herodotous work in order to verify story above....)

continuity of south Slavs from previous inhabitants is possible, but it is not a fact, and not even a strong theory...
personally, I do believe that ancient Macedonians were Serb related
because I think that eponym ancestor of both was queen of Sheba, also known as Makeda in south of her lands, and Balkis in Arabic countries... which for me fits perfectly with Macedonians being south of Serbs, and area getting name Balkan when it was under Arab influenced Ottoman empire...

but I cannot claim that is truth or not, as it is just an idea...
most of your posts are also based on ideas various people have....
ideas do not prove anything, they are just guidelines about possible flow of events....

Garrick
31-01-11, 00:52
I can understand your anti-Greek sentiment, as Slavic Macedonians in north Greece were forced to speek Greek and become Greeks...
I can understend your anti-Bulgarian sentiment, as Macedonians do not exist in Bulgaria anymore, they are now Bulgarians....

But the Macedonians from FYRM, the one that were in Serb states are only ones who now have own state and are not assimilated... so no, I do not understand your aggressive attitude towards Serbs.... In Serbia most people have very positive emotions regarding Macedonians, and many people have partial origin from Macedonia....

my point is if you want to prove continuity between Macedonians and ancient Macedonians, you can as well start by proving continuity of other south Slavs with previous inhabitants, as Macedonians are dominantly of same origin as other south Slavs...

back to haplogroups, R1a is according to Klyosov much much older in Macedonia, Bosnia and Serbia than in the rest of the world taken together....therefore it cannot be recent arrival....

and since R1a is also unusually high in Greek Macedonians,
it seems obvious that ancient Macedonians likely have been R1a dominant people...
in some sense.... many people who have later become Slavic do have R1a haplogroup, and since that haplogroup origins from Serbia, Bosnia and Macedonia...in that sense you can see ancient Macedonians as genetically related to pre-Slavic people or even as origin of Slavic people.... but R1a in FYRM and Serbia is today bellow 15%...

so that does not imply genetic continuity....
for genetic continuity, you need I2a2 to be part of ancient Macedonians heritage, and I really don't know wheter that was really the case...
for culture continuity, you need to prove that ancient Macedonians did speak language akin to Slavic, while only their elite was Hellenic.... (e.g. to help you a bit: Macedonian king who was at first not allowed to take part in Olympic games because Macedonians are not Hellenic, did not use as argument that Macedonians are Hellenic, but that his family is Hellenic...after claiming that, he was allowed to participate... so, this incident makes it very clear that his familly was Greek, but that nation they ruled over was not...but this fact still does not relate those people to pre-Slavic people...and in fact you should search for exact phrasing in Herodotous work in order to verify story above....)

continuity of south Slavs from previous inhabitants is possible, but it is not a fact, and not even a strong theory...
personally, I do believe that ancient Macedonians were Serb related
because I think that eponym ancestor of both was queen of Sheba, also known as Makeda in south of her lands, and Balkis in Arabic countries... which for me fits perfectly with Macedonians being south of Serbs, and area getting name Balkan when it was under Arab influenced Ottoman empire...

but I cannot claim that is truth or not, as it is just an idea...
most of your posts are also based on ideas various people have....
ideas do not prove anything, they are just guidelines about possible flow of events....

How yes no
Since DejaVu I have experienced serious offense but I never came back nearly equal measure. I really try to respect his integrity, although he does not deserve because they do not respect mine.

However, sentence by sentence, I’m trying to give him the key issues which, unfortunately, in Macedonia FYROM some people do not take seriously enough.

Communists when, in 1945 formed what they wanted on the Socialist Republic of Macedonia, not even dreamed that one day it will appear research of haplogroups and many other things and that will be used with much more knowledge.

Today, the Macedonian elite (which is not only the government), is dedicated to all antiquity, including a major project Skopje in 2014 where more and does not know that the famous figure of the ancient world, especially ancient Greece, will come across a statue which should highlight “the fact about ancient Macedonian origin” and so on. But, the story can break the the head of its creators and can brings FYROM Macedonia in a hopeless situation.

I will gave one example. And yesterday and today has a very prominent researchers in the west, and not just to the west, who believe that Alexander the Macedonian was Illyrian/Albanian, and that ancient Macedonians were Illyrian/Albanian tribe. Greek scientists actually have a problem in dealing with these concepts, much greater than with the Slav Macedonians, and one of the reasons is the similarity of haplogroups Greeks and Albanians.

One key finding in Pakistan, what I will write is completely blew away any idea of Slav Macedonian scholars on the origin of Alexander the Great, and gave wings to the Albanians more say about Alexander's Illyrian/Albanian origin.

To be continued

how yes no 2
31-01-11, 01:49
One key finding in Pakistan, what I will write is completely blew away any idea of Slav Macedonian scholars on the origin of Alexander the Great, and gave wings to the Albanians more say about Alexander's Illyrian/Albanian origin.

I am pretty sure that key finding is one in zillion recent inventions of Albanian fanatics ala deja-vu, as I am sure that relation between Pakistan and Albanians can't be your finding, I have searched keywords on google... and have chosen random you tube link about issue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwcOB5VzS1A

I didnot watch something so funny for long time... oh, man it is hilarious what fanatics can trully believe in...

they claim how Kalash, burusho (Hunza) and Pamirians who all claim descend from armies of Alexander Great are Albanians based on stupid arguments of type they are white, and Pamir = pa+ mir = nice view in albanian, Burrusho comes from Burre - man in Albanian, and Hunza comes from word Hundez that means "small noise" which is lol about acustic properties of place where they live... of course they did not bother to check whether those names have some meaning in native languages...but they used ridiculous alike Albanian word coins to explain them...I am sure that can be done in any language
Pa+mir = well(than) + peace in Serbian
Pam+ir is where Pamela from Ireland was on vacation in 323 BC..
Hundez & Hunza & small noise- are Huns also Albanians that made small noise when they farted?
as for Burrusho, I guess Boers (Boer is dutch word and is pronounced as Bur) in south Africa must as well be Albanians...

than key proof Sarplaninac dog breed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0arplaninac) from Sar mountain (south Serbia that is Kosovo, northwest Macedonia, northeast Albania) that they call Illyrian dog... now that dog sort was likely on Sar mountain also in time of Alexander Macedonian...so it is normal that some of them were taken with army.... that proves nothing of Albanians being involved in contest... in fact, Afghanistan is also place where Seneca's Serians lived in arc from northwest China to India.... and Sar mountain is named after Scordisci, which to me indicates clearly that Scordisci were Serians....

another key proof are horns... Alexandar the great has horns on some representation and Skenderbeg has as well on another... besides that being likely just an artistic freedom what can I say, Sherden (sea peoples who left toponym Serbonian bog /Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt) did as well have horns... ...so this can point to Serb origin... but it doesnot, as vikings and many other people carried horns...

and btw, Skenderbeg is anyway of disputed origin... largely Slavic.... as his older brothers were Stanisha, Reposh, and Kostandin, and his sisters were Mara, Jelena, Angjelina, Vlajka, and Mamica.[1] which are all clearly Slavic names that have nothing to do with Albanians... his last name does sound Greek to me though...

as for Pa+mir = nice view
Burusho = people
Hunza = nice sound

I am still laughing....

hope you have stronger evidence than these you tube jokes...

Garrick
31-01-11, 01:58
I am pretty sure that key finding is one in zillion recent inventions of Albanian fanatics ala deja-vu, as I am sure that relation between Pakistan and Albanians can't be your finding, I have searched keywords on google... and have chosen random you tube link about issue

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nwcOB5VzS1A

I didnot watch something so funny for long time... oh, man it is hilarious what fanatics can trully believe in...

they claim how Kalash, burusho (Hunza) and Pamirians who all claim descend from armies of Alexander Great are Albanians based on stupid arguments of type they are white, and Pamir = pa+ mir = nice view in albanian, Burrusho comes from Burre - man in Albanian, and Hunza means "small noise" which is lol about acustic properties of place where they live...

than key proof Sarplaninac dog breed from south Serbia from Sar mountains that they call Illyrian dog... now that dog sort was ofcourse on Sar mountain also in time of Alexander Macedonian...so it is normalled that some of them were taken with army.... that proves nothing of Albanians being involved in contest... in fact, Afghanistan is also place where Seneca's Serians lived in arc from northwest China to India.... and Sar mountain is named after Scordisci, which to me indicates clearly that Scordisci were Serians....

another key proof are horns... Alexandar the great has horns on some representation and Skenderbeg has as well on another...

what can I say, Sherdena did as well have horns... ...so this can point to Serb origin... but it doesnot as vikings and many other people carried horns...

and btw, Skenderbeg is anyway of disputed origin... largely Slavic....

as for Pa+mir = nice view
Burusho = people
Hunza = nice sound

I am still laughing....

hope you have stronger evidence than these you tube jokes...

how yes no
No hurry, this is not the issue.

iapetoc
31-01-11, 02:23
Deja Vu let me make you something clear.

By having the name Makedonia and Nationality you only make Enemies,
The aggressive stand is not for own Good,

1 By claiming Makedonian Nationality , then you Give Reason to Greek people to attack conquer and liberate you from Slavic occupation,
The above was the Idea of Xtra Fanaticks in Greece National Party

2 by claiming Makedonians you Give reason to other slavic Nations to involve your state and politicks,

3 by naming the Truth that you are slavic that lived in that Area for 1000 years
you can have the desired Makedonia and the acceptance of all,

4 by claiming Dusan - Siimeon-Samuel-Alexander only enemies you make,
because you claim land and History of 4 nearby nations,

Greece is not willing to invade you, or to Harm you, Greece accepted your will of Independence and considers you a Free country,
But your claims only block more friendship and solidarity,
the acceptance as you did that you are a Slavic nation only good will Bring, and calms down area
about the slavic that many greek speak, I must inform you that many Greeks study in Serbia and Bulgaria and lived there, almost 60 000 in serbia and today live 100 000 in Bulgaria,
Besides even me had to learn some cause when i was Young i worked in a tavernand in summer it was full of Ex Yugoslavians,
Besides it was the Serbs that reach first Monaster (Bitola) in WW1 and today that area belong to you, and not Greece, cause Bitola was dwelt by enough Greeks and was a part of Ancient Makedonia and the dream of Greek kings,
(bitola not skopje)
and it was the Bulgarian guerilla that fight for you at balkan wars,

the Greeks in order of peace accept your claim to name Makedonia under geografical reason, only if you name your nationality, and stop claiming,

the genetical difference as you see is quite enough,
If every Fyrom-ian accepts that he is slavic then your problem with Greece is solved,

how yes no 2
31-01-11, 02:23
how yes no
No hurry, this is not the issue.
ok, looking forward to hear...
but tomorrow...

Garrick
31-01-11, 02:29
ok, looking forward to hear...
but tomorrow...

how yes no
In this scholarly text the international and Pakistani authors speak only about the Greeks.

However, and Albanians are calling for this investigation.

The attempts of some Slav Macedonian scientists to talk about Aroumanian or similar origins of Alexander the Great more attempt to delay the inevitable truth.


Alexander the Macedonian was most likely haplogroup E.

And we know who are the E carriers in the Balkans.

Mostly Greeks or Albanians.


If it is proved that the Illyrians/Albanians are descendants of ancient Macedonians it is worse option for Slav Macedonians than the descedents are Greeks. Communist propaghanda began since 1945 can experience a complete breakdown, but it is good the Slav Macedonians at the time to recognize how the game is not only stupid but dangerous.

(Though, personally, I think the ancient Doric tribe Makednoi is founder Macedonia, and despite all the support of researchers in the world cannot prove that Dorians are Illyrians/Albanians because Dorians are Greeks.)

But How yes no, you well noticed, and even some of my countrymen, but particularly Iapetoc that is the analyst par excellence, that the Albanian question of origin is most complex issue and to untangle a real achievement.

I personally congratulate you on the findings in Macedonia FYROM, of research where is discovered among Albanians haplogroup E-M81 which is present in Berbers.

It was also discovered another E subclade M34, but it is known that is present in the Balkans.

This means that haplogroup E-V13 is not only present among Albanians, although it is by far the largest.

iapetoc
31-01-11, 02:34
hahaha
the mollosos




Alexanders Dogs, from the kingdom of his mother,
Garrick Alexander was surely not E
probably he was J2 as Dorians,
or maybe a kind of R his ancestors were all kings
now about E has to do mainly in West Greek Makedonia, the Aeolian E and that surely ally after 200 years of 1rst Makedonian
but also the myth of France royal family with G-Ydna that comes from Alexander can give a suspicius of G since Alexander left no sons and the 1 he left was slain,
then we must search to near by blood connections,
bones of Phillip (or Alexander 4rth have been found) and if a license from the museum a good reasearch can give more light

how yes no 2
31-01-11, 02:34
Deja Vu let me make you something clear.

By having the name Makedonia and Nationality you only make Enemies,
The aggressive stand is not for own Good,

1 By claiming Makedonian Nationality , then you Give Reason to Greek people to attack conquer and liberate you from Slavic occupation,
The above was the Idea of Xtra Fanaticks in Greece National Party


I do not expect this dispute can ever lead to armed conflict....
from what I know both nowadays FYRM Macedonians and Greeks are good natured, peaceful orthodox people, defenders and not conquerers.... sure there are fanatics on both sides that have their own truths like two of you here... but you see that your dialog is friendly despite completely opposite views... lol, Iapetoc and Deja-vu - yin and yang, G haplogroup family... you two guys are symbol of Greek Macedonians and Slav Macedonians...

ancient Macedonians probably didnot speak either Greek (except for elite) or Slavic or Albanian...

people change languages easily - that is nothing new... look at spread of latin derived languages...from once little village called Rome to whole Italy, Spain, France, Portugal, Romaina and latin America...
only genetics can tell us of origin....

how yes no 2
31-01-11, 02:42
Alexander the Macedonian was most likely haplogroup E.

And we know who are the E carriers in the Balkans.

Mostly Greeks or Albanians.


why do you think Alexander Macedonian was E-V13?
as far as I know there are no preserved remains of Alexander Macedonian....

Besides, there are E-V13 people as far as Germany, Netherlands, UK, Baltic... they are for sure not all Albanians in origin.... and it is already known that royal family of ancient Macedonians is of Greek origin, so Alexander himself was Greek...



(Though, personally, I think the ancient Doric tribe Makednoi is founder Macedonia, and despite all the support of researchers in the world cannot prove that Dorians are Illyrians/Albanians because Dorians are Greeks.)


yes, but question is were Dorians really Greeks.... my guess is that they brought lot of non-Greek genetics in Greece.... the way I see it is that they went north as J2+ some E-V13 Greeks, but returned to Greece as heavily mixed with R1a and perhaps also I2a2 people...my guess is that the very name Macedonian did not exist when they went north but did when they returned

iapetoc
31-01-11, 03:16
back to the begining, hmmm

Temenides the persecuted King who went north and create 2 kindoms,
1 is the Sparta
2 is Makedonia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenid
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Procles
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurysthenes

This conquest of Peloponnesus by the Dorians, commonly called the "Return of the Heraclidae," is represented as the recovery by the descendants of Heracles of the rightful inheritance of their hero ancestor and his sons. The Dorians followed the custom of other Greek tribes in claiming as ancestor for their ruling families one of the legendary heroes, but the traditions must not on that account be regarded as entirely mythical. They represent a joint invasion of Peloponnesus by Aetolians and Dorians, the latter having been driven southward from their original northern home under pressure from the Thessalians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaly).


the name Makedonia is 700 BC
the name Makednos is before
the name Makedonia has 100 years difference with Dorian monement
the IE R came in Greece before 1800 BC
the Dorian and the Makedonian starting place is common, south-west (dorian-Lokroi) and south east (argeites-Makednoi) of Mt Olymp
the area a was inhabited by Hettites in far anciety, and had similar language with Tyrrshenian (la-pis La-rrisa la-vrys La-tum) and a 100 km south of thessally were the myrmidons,
although Dorians the Argeian Makedonians have sound like Vrygoi (Phrygians) and in West Makedonia it Was Lokroi-Aeolian,
The east Greek Makedonia was colonised at times of Amyntas and later at 300-400 BC after battles with ancient Thracians, Even today the Limit of Persian Kingdom is known cause in many villages vocabulary we have Persian words, and the tradition of many villages is according Thracian,
in a group of villages even today they will show you the boundaries, and they tell you the story,

the Makedonia DejaVu is mentioning start at 700-800 AD as a slavonization of smaller tribes, ex Romans, and even Greeks but very few the last,
the East Roman Empire was basically Latin and Greek speaking and some parts Armenian or Persian,
That is why Romania is still today speaking Romans lingua,
The wars For Religion leads areas to create new leaders new Bishops and other allies,
the religius wars of Bulgarian exarchate with Con/polis Patriarch create strange situations as for example the Makedonian Dynasty who was Armenian !!!!!! (?)
That dynasty had no claim to throne, so they create a myth from Armenian kings, remember the Iberian kings before, and they were from Thrace, today Bulgaria which that time was named MAkedonia away from Today Makedonia, and the area of today Makedonia was named Thessalonique
and today Serbia was named Bulgaria, Very later big Kings who raise as Dusan or Simeon etc
push more the slavonization and the position of Slavonic churches,
After the 4 Crusade wars many Romans Slavs and even Greeks unite and Fight The Francais or Latins,
At that time Greeks unite The Serbian Kings as warriors and serbian and greeks married Between to stop Crusaders and Italiansor Francais,
search for Boniface de Montferrat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boniface_I,_Marquess_of_Montferrat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demetrius_of_Montferrat
At that times as also Later
we see peculiar things as the division of Greeks to 4 empires fighting each other,
Serbians with Greeks fighting Catholic-Latin Rulers and Crusader, specially in Thessaly and west Makedonia
Serbian Kings with Greek Names, or the opposite
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Palaiologos_%28Despot%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_Uro%C5%A1
it was Orthodox Wars against Catholic or Turkish and also National wars
The alliance were strange for Example if a Turk entered they Unite, if a Francais the same,
but if no Entered sometimes they fight among them,

And the most strange Kastrioti,
to whom many sources name he is Greek
DejaVu and his sources say he was Slavic
and Albanians say that he was an Albanian,

After that it was the era of Islamic Turkey,
in that era orthodox christian unite to an Alliance against Turks,,
and that last until 1876 with St Stephan when Russian wanted an Xtra road To mediterean,
The Bulgarian,
That Russian Dream has to Do with Orlov
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlov_Revolt
the Bulgarian army was very well equipted from Russia and very strong that almost half Balkans were conquert and fight 4 countries,
After the 1rst WW Russian politic was to create a slavic minority in Aegean sea so avoid Taxes from Istanbul pass and was finished at 1923 with EXCHANGE OF POPULATION BETWEEN GREECE AND BULGARIA,
CITIES LIKE BURGAS SOZOPOL WERE MORE GREEK
AND VODENA- EDESSA WERE MORE SLAVIC
And the Licence to have Navy Russian Navy at island of Syros,
In WW2 and the communist Expansion and The Greek civil war
The Demand to Aegean exit of Russian create that situations,
Tito as with Kossovo who epected Albania to be the 7 Yugoslavian Republic Believed also that Salonique will Be the 8 Yugoslavian Republic and create the myth of treaty of 1913 etc

the fact that in today Fyrom live few Greeks from ex communist party or from Turkish times
as In Greece live a small population (official estimation 28 000, Max votes 7000 the slavic Party in elections)
is small and not even to be mentioned
the exchange of population is even today visible in Petritsi, Tzumagia-Джумая, Poroia, Mesimvria-Nesebăr, Apolonia Thessalique-Sozopol, Pyrgos-Burgas, etc

The Serbian Greek exchange has to Do with areas From Florina-Lerin And Monaster-Bitola

the fact is that Tito F,,, one of the strongest Alliances in Balkans, The Greek-Serbian that Started at Turkish occupation and reach its max at WW1 and after with Serbian Army to corfu, and Free Serbian zone at the Harbor of Thessalonique, by closing Borders, Denying the Red Cross to give evidence of the Kidnapped Kids at 1948 and claiming ancient Greek Makedonian Lands as Yugoslavian

DejaVu
31-01-11, 19:10
Here are more facts that the people are mixed from many nationalities in todays countries.

The Illyrians:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Niw6r9LB8YU&feature=player_embedded#
Many Illyrians mixed with Celts and Slavs and many more.

DejaVu
31-01-11, 21:28
To All Nationalists:
This is what happens when your governments falsified the history, you recognize only the history written in your country and thats a big problem when the truth comes out, you just cant handle it.
Self-determination does not exist in your way of thinking (Undemocratic).

DejaVu
31-01-11, 22:54
The Macedonian-Greek conflict.
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/conflict.html
The Macedonian-Greek conflict is a very complex issue. Lots of books have been written about Macedonia, but many of them simply serve to justify the aspirations, propaganda, and the partition of Macedonia of 1913, by the neighboring countries such as Greece. These sources are, therefore, biased. The Greek pages about Macedonia rely strictly on their very own Greek propaganda sources, which naturally makes them biased. In order to find the real truth about Macedonia, one has to rely on the independent and neutral sources when looking into history. This page is such case, which browses historical independent and neutral facts, to show the truth about Macedonia against the century-old Greek propaganda.
Macedonia seceded from Yugoslavia and became a sovereign state by a popular referendum held in September 1991 when the majority of voters chose independence. Greece immediately demanded from the international community not to recognize the country under its name Macedonia.

Greece alleges that:
1. The Macedonians should not be recognized as Macedonians because the Macedonians have been of Greek nationality since 2000 BC.
2. Those Macedonians whose language belongs to the Slavic family of languages, must not call themselves Macedonians because 4000 years ago, the Macedonians spoke Greek and still speak nothing but Greek.
3. Macedonia has no right to call itself by this name because Macedonia has always been and still is a region of Greece.

The people of Macedonia (FYROM) affirm that:
1. The ancient Macedonians were a distinct European people, conscious and proud of their nationality, their customs, their language, and their name. The same applies to the modern Macedonians today.
2. The ancient Macedonians regarded the ancient Greeks as neighbors, not as kinsmen. The Greeks treated the Macedonians as foreigners ("barbarians") whose native language was Macedonian, not Greek.
3. Macedonia was never a region of Greece. On the contrary, ancient Greece was subjected to Macedonia. In 1913, modern Greece and her Balkan allies partitioned Macedonia. If today a portion of Macedonia belongs to Greece, it is by virtue of an illegal partition of the whole and occupation of a part of Macedonia.

Elias2
01-02-11, 03:10
3. Macedonia was never a region of Greece. On the contrary, ancient Greece was subjected to Macedonia. In 1913, modern Greece and her Balkan allies partitioned Macedonia. If today a portion of Macedonia belongs to Greece, it is by virtue of an illegal partition of the whole and occupation of a part of Macedonia.

Illegal partition? How so? The treaty was illegal somehow? or are you just buthurt that balgaria lost the second balkan war? In anycase, your not an ethnic macedonian because they do not exist. Self determination is not built on lies. I live in Canada but I'm not a native Huron person, nor can I claim that I am just because I live in the area they once lived in.

Grow up Tito is dead. Macedonian by nationality? sure, by ethnicity, you're a comedian.

iapetoc
01-02-11, 03:20
well
lets put it Different

1 The MAKEDONIANS

a. The Makedonians is an Ancient Greek tribe that lives in the area of today Greek Makedonia, relatives of Dorian Greek,
The named the Makedonia after their name and ancestor Makednos,
b. Their Kings were The Argeians Dynasty,
They Unite with Aeolians of today Greek West Makedonia at 370 BC
Under King Amyntas, and they colonised conquer East Greek Makedonia at times of Kings Phillip
c. THE MAKEDONIANS NEVER INHABITED PAEONIA AND HAVE NOTHING TO DO,
THE MAKEDONIANS RESPECT THE INDEPENDENCE OF NEIGHBORS AS LONG AS THEY RESPECT OUR INDEPENDENCE

2 THE FYROMIANS

a. Fyrom is an Independent state that is inhabited by Slavic people which name them selfs Makedonians, they took their name after the land, and the treaty of 1913 (Bucurest)
b. Fyrom people have nothing to do with Ancient Makedonian Tribe, since their origin and land is Paeonia and their culture is Slavic, and their Kings like Stephan Dusan or Simeon or Samuel are Slavic kings either Serbian or Bulgarian which conquered the land of ancient Makedonians, and claim the title, but had nothing to do with ancient Makedonians.
c. Fyrom claims Land and culture of Greek Makedonia which is a hostile stand,

3 GENETICALLY THERE IS ENOUGH DIFFERENCE AMONG FYROM AND MAKEDONIA,

4 AN EXCHANGE OF POPULATION WAS DONE IN 1923 AMONG GREECE AND YUGOSLAVIAN FEDERATION (FYROM) AND BULGARIA, SO THERE IS NO MINORITY IN ANY OF THESE 4 LANDS-States

Self DETERMINATION IS NOT A CLAIMING IDEA, OR A WILLINGLY DETERMINATION,
I CAN'T DETERMINE MY SELF AS A RUSSIAN OR A SCOTTISH,
CAUSE THEN I LIVE IN AN ANOTHER WORLD,

THAT IS THE RESULTS OF NATIONALIST PROPAGANDA WHOSE TENSIONS IS IMPERIALISM AND EXPANSIONS,
and is every where in every country, But sometimes overpass the limits, if I Immigrate to Germany, and change passport that makes me a citizen, but not a German, my children or my grand children if they stay then have the right to self-determinate as Germans and not Greeks


besides even in your documents you see Greek citizens, even if they were according church, they existed in Makedonia in Ottomans and Turkish Times census, as also existed Slavic people mainly named as Bulgarians.

the 2 ethnicities Greek and Bulgarian(officially) or Greek and Slavic Makedonian(unofficially) proves that at 1900 there was 3 different nations, Turks, Greeks, And Slavic Populations,
THAT IS A FACT YOU CAN'T DENY

the Greeks did not invade or conquer one day, at 1900
they didn't wake one morning and decided lets go take Makedonia from Fyrom-ians, at 1912
they live in Makedonia since more than 3000 years
understand that, my family lives here, they didn't came from outerspace at 1900

Even the Turks admit that minor Asia was inhabited by Greeks, even the Bulgarians admit that many cities in Black sea was build by Greeks,
the only one that Denies all is Fyrom, find out why.

Exchange of population was done so avoid future wars,
There is no Minority among Fyrom and Greece, cause the exchange had that purpose, to create more clear national states, Greeks left Monaster-Bitola, and Fyromians left Florina-Lerin.
that was done to avoid future claims and wars,

DejaVu
02-02-11, 21:54
AS A CONTESTED space Macedonia in the late nineteenth century suffered political, religious and paramilitary incursions made upon the population by the neighbouring nascent states and the disappearing Ottoman empire. Territorial claims were rationalised by ethnographic maps and statistical population data. Interested commentators viewed Macedonia in accordance with government policy and presented their studies as academic and scientific, even though these studies were clearly political in nature. The European Powers maintained their own pretence and acted as patrons of the small Balkan States. Although churches, schools and paramilitary bands were the primary instruments of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serb states, expansion into Macedonia was ultimately achieved by a full military mobilisation when the armies of Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia marched into Macedonia in October 1912 and drove out the Ottoman Turks. The territorial division of Macedonia and claims upon the Macedonians have continued to be a matter of contention between the Balkan States into contemporary times.

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/images/map_ottoman.jpghttp://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianGreekConflict/images/map_partition.jpg

Neutral Statistics on the Population of Macedonia:

1. Dr. K. Ostreich. Die Bevolkerung von Makedonien. Leipzig, 1905.
2. K. Gersin. Macedonian und das Turkische Problem. Wien, 1903.
3. Andrew Roussos. The British Foreign Office and Macedonian National Identity 1918 - 1941.

Macedonian Slavs (Did not call themselfs Macedonian slavs only Macedonians)
1. 1,500,000
2. 1,182,036
3. 1,150,000

Serbs
-
-
-

Bulgarians
-
-
-

Greeks (Did not call themselfs Macedonians only Greeks)
1. 200,000
2. 228,702
3. 300,000

Turks and others
1. 550,000
2. 627,915
3. 400,000



Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.

1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims - 423.000
Greeks - 259.000
Bulgarians - 178.000
Serbs - 13.150
Others (Jews) - 73.000

Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/ShortHistory.html), and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.

3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/PartitionedMacedonia/KingoftheGreeks.html) lived:
Turks - 2.000
Greeks - 1.341.000
Bulgarisants - 77.000
Others (Jews) - 91.000

Submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreeceStealingMacedonianHistory.html). Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreekPropaganda.html).


Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.

Nikolaides, 1899 (Greek)
Slav Macedonians - 454.000
Greeks - 656.300
Turks and others - 576.600

Kenchov, 1900 (Bulgarian)
Serbs - 400
Bulgarians - 1.037.000
Greeks - 214.000
Turks and others - 610.365

Gopchevich, 1886 (Serbian)
Serbs - 1.540.000
Greeks - 201.000
Turks and others - 397.020


Forced Change of the Ethnic Structure of Aegean Macedonia
The presence of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia could not allow Greece to claim that land to be Greek and only Greek. Since it was proven that they resisted the Hellenization, Greece decided to drive them out of Macedonia. Greece made agreements with Bulgaria (signed 10/27/19), and Turkey (1/30/23 in Lausanne), for exchange of population. This provided for the Macedonians of Aegean to leave for Bulgaria, while the Greeks in Bulgaria and Turkey settled in the Aegean part of Macedonia. These measures changed the ethnic character of the Aegean Macedonia. According to the "Great Greek Encyclopedia", there were 1,221,849 newcomers against 80,000 "slavophones". The "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926," claims there were 119,000 "bulgarisants" in 1912, and 77,000 in 1926. The Greek ethnic map of Aegean Macedonia was submitted to the League of the nations by the Greek government. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting this statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians. Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language. There are also other Greek sources that contradict the previous numbers of the Macedonians in Greece. The Athenian newspaper, "Message d' Aten" wrote on February 15, 1913, that the number of "Bulgar-echarhists" was 199,590 contradicting with those 119,000 of the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia".

How many Macedonians remained in Greece?
When the Bulgarian and Serbian views are added, the confusion gets only bigger. According to the Bulgarian Rumenov, in 1928 there were total of 206,435 "Bulgarians", while the Serb Bora Milojevich claimed 250,000 "Slavs" in Aegean Macedonia. Belgrade's "Politika" in its 6164 issue of June 24, 1925 gave three times greater numbers for the Macedonians in Greece than official Athens:
"The Greek government must not complain that we are pointing to the fact that the Macedonian population of West Macedonia - 250,000 - 300,000 - is the most unfortunate national and linguistic minority in the world, not only because their personal safety in endangered, but also because they have no church nor school in their own language, and they had them during the Turkish rule."
The speculations with the real number of Macedonians is obvious again. Their true number remains disputable in the Balkan documents, same as it was the case before the partition of 1912. Unfortunately, the Greek government would not allow anybody, including neutral observers to conduct statistical studies. Forced to leave, the Macedonians emigrated in large numbers to Australia, Canada, and the USA. As a result, there are about 300,000 Macedonians that presently live in Australia. In the city of Toronto, Canada, there are about 100,000. The present Macedonian colonies in these counties are represented mostly by the descendants of those Aegean Macedonians who settled there in the 1920's.
According to the "Ethnic Map of Greek Macedonia Showing the Ratio Between Various Ethnic Elements in 1912 and 1926", only 42,000 left their homes. If we take the statistical tables of the Balkan and neutral sources above, by 1913 in the whole of Macedonia lived around 1,250,000 Macedonians. In the Aegean part (51%) which Greece took after 1913, half of the Macedonian nation remained under Greek rule - that would be 625,000 people. If up to 1926 42,000 out of these 625,000 left, in the Greek part of Macedonian thereafter remained 583,000 Macedonians.

DejaVu
02-02-11, 22:21
Facsimile of the periodical Macedonian Voice published in St.Petersburg (Russia) in 1913-1914 with Sarafov's heading.
http://makedonika.org/sarafov3.GIF
We Macedonians are not Serbians nor Bulgars but simply Macedonians. The Macedonian people (narod) exists separate from the Bulgarian and the Serbian. We feel with both and the one that helps our liberation we'll thank but neither should forget that Macedonia belongs to the Macedonians."
Boris Sarafov, 1902


Austrian, Karl Hron
"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..." and:
"... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language".

Henry Brailsford, Macedonia: its Races and their Future
"Are the Macedonians Serbs or Bulgars? The question is constantly asked and dogmatically answered in Belgrade and Sofia. But the lesson of history is obviously that there is no answer at all. They are not Serbs, for their blood can hardly be purely Slavonic... On the other hand, they can hardly be Bulgarians... They are very probably very much what they were before either a Bulgarian or a Serbian Empire existed - a Slav people derived from various stocks, who invaded the peninsula at different periods."

The famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875:
"People who originate from one and the same race, speak the same language, live together in harmony, and have the same customs, songs and mentality, constitute a nation, and the place where they live is their homeland. In this way, the Macedonians are a nation and their homeland is Macedonia" and,
"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"

William E. Gladstone
"... Next to the Ottoman government nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy than jealousies between Greek and Slav and plans by the states already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not Macedonia for the Macedonians as well as Bulgaria for the Bulgarians and Serbia for the Serbians."

Gladstone was three times elected Prime Minister of England (1868 -1874; 1880 - 1885 and 1893 - 1894). He supported the Macedonian nation in its quest for freedom. Perhaps Macedonia would have gained its independence had this man been once again elected Prime Minister during the big Ilinden Uprising on August 2, 1903. Left without any support, the uprising was crushed by the Turks, followed by the massacre on the innocent Macedonian population.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S9_EK8h09TI/AAAAAAAAFEY/0Kv5jzUyyFc/s1600/delchevgoodoz4.jpg



From La Macédoine et les Macédoniens, by Edmond Bouchié de Belle [E.B.de Belle], published in Paris (Librairie Armand Colin), 1922, completed in 1918. Translated from the French by Stavros N. Karageorgis C.Phil. Sociology UCLA. Original pages: 40-44.

Part I: Macedonia and the Macedonians Chapter 1: The disputed race: The Macedonian peasant

1- The Macedonian nationality
In the entire countryside of Macedonia, one finds a race of peasants, speaking a Slavonic dialect, of Greek Orthodox religion, which presents most of the ethnic outward signs customary of the Slav peoples. These poor people have the unenviable privilege of being claimed by three different nationalities. - "The Macedonians", say the Bulgarians, "are Bulgarians. They have such a language and such a heart. It was the entire Christendom of European Turkey which comprised the 'Great Bulgaria' created by the Treaty of San Stefano. It is under the Bulgarian name that the victims of the Treaty of Berlin fought against the Turkish yoke". -"The Macedonians are Serbs", replies an equally ardent voice. "It is all of Macedonia which included the Empire of Dussan the Great. It is the Serbian name which the literature and monuments that traversed the Ottoman domination invoke. The Macedonian language is not Bulgarian, as the mal-intentioned ignorants say, it is old Serbian, Serbian arrested in its development. Moreover, have you ever seen Bulgarians celebrating the Slava? Yet, the Macedonians do celebrate it." Now come the Greeks who declare the Macedonians, if not Hellenes by origin, or even by language, at least hellenised by culture. "It is not blood," they say, "but the spirit which creates a race. The barbarian Slavs who conquered Macedonia were organized, and provided with law and order, by the Greek Empire, converted by the Greek Church. We can speak of them as Greeks the same way we speak of the French as Latin. The Macedonians would not have their own ethnic character except for the fact that the dispute of which they are the object had given them one, at least provisionally. One should not perhaps, in fact, take on-the-field part in the quarrel, but at least one fact is undeniable; that is, these people exist, and that one had better attribute a name to them. Being a 'contested people' forms, in sum, an international status equivalent to that of 'contested territory'. But, an observer of good faith will go a bit further. He will state easily that if the Macedonian has a lot in common with the Slavs of the Balkans, he has absolutely nothing in common with the Hellene. What's more, if by some customs, worship, and language traits he resembles a Bulgarian, by others, he resembles the Serb, and is not identified exactly either with the one or with the other. Besides, that which makes a Bulgarian, a Serb, a Greek is, more than any ethnic or linguistic particularity, the conscience he has of his nationality and his participation in an organized national life. Yet, the people in question distinguishes itself from the three other peoples by the fact that it has neither national conscience nor national life. Ask a peasant from around Ostrovo or Monastir what/who he is! He will, nine times out of ten, reply 'Makedon'. But, this declaration does not at all have the character of a profession of patriotic faith. The questioned may equally simply have answered by "My name is Dimitri'. He states that he is an inhabitant of Macedonia, and that's all. An observer of good faith will therefore set apart this population as that to which the name "Macedonian Slavs" or simply 'Macedonians' appeared to suit them best.

DejaVu
02-02-11, 22:42
http://www.gate.net/~mango/20thC_Docs.htm
Documents on the Struggle of the Macedonian People for Indipendence and Nation-State
1902
Appeal of the "National Macedonian-Albanian League" Brother Macedonians! Brother Albanians! ...There is no need that the Bulgarians, the Greeks or others amend our homeland... Executive Committee British Museum (British Library), London, 1902
1902
Nikola Karev to Goce Delchev ...Let us not expect freedom either from the Greeks or the Bulgarians; it is we, the Macedonians, who should fight for our Macedonia ourselves... Neobjaveno pismo, Nova Makedonija, (Skopje), XXIV, nbr.7744 (May 5 1968), p.8
1897
William Gladstone ...Next to the Ottoman Govt. nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy then jealousies between Greek and Slav, and plans by the States already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not Macedonia for Macedonians, as well as Bulgaria for Bulgarians and Servia for Servians. And if they are small and weak, let them bind themselves together for defence, so that they may not be devoured by others, either great and small, which would probably be the effect of their quarreling among themselves. The Times (London), 6th January 1897, p.12
1900
A. Brutus (A. Drandar): Concerning a movement in Macedonia A considerable section of the European press does not cease to inform us of the immense sufferings undergone by the Christian population of Macedonia....It was the sad fate of that population that made us publish this booklet, based upon our experience and personal observations I had acquired impartially, as a foreigner, during my stay in Macedonia of several years...If one takes a retrospective view of the history of Macedonia to the most ancient of times, one remains amazed by the great role this small country, this classical country par excellance, played in the world....The Macedonian, born in a land to which nature was so favorable, has always longed for heroic feats and aspired to great deeds...Even the glorious cradle of Ancient Hellenism is subjected to the Macedonian kings...We find Macedonians on the Byzantine throne at the time when this empire was at its peak. Following the course of history, we see how the star of Macedonia shone with the same intensity. It plays the chief role in the revival of the Slav people. Thus, the two brothers exalted to apostles, Cyril and Methodius, objects of general admiration for the Slav world, are Macedonians, and owing to the very existence of these two apostles, this small land becomes the cradle of the Slav people to whom it gives its religion and art...The inhabitants of Macedonia do not want to be annexed either to Bulgaria or Serbia, or Greece; they want, they want so strongly, to live a human life in an autonomous country. Their slogan is: Macedonia to the Macedonians. A. Brutus, A Propos d'un Mouvement en Macedonie, Bruxelles 1900, pp.12-13, 15, 56.
1901
A.V. Amfiteatrov: The Land of Discord Each Slav should and is obliged to feel sympathy for Macedonian freedom. But Macedonian freedom cannot be achieved with their own, Macedonian means. The land is too small and weak to fight against the power of Constantinople, which only has to give a sign and tens of thousands of soldiers will attack the Rumalian vilayets and strangle them like mice before Europe could compose itself, even before Europe could know it. Hence, Macedonia cannot be freed with its own forces. Only an evil enemy, an unconscious enemy of Slavism could desire an armed movement in Macedonia now when the land is totally unprepared for an uprising, in circumstances of tied hands of the whole Europe, of Serbo-Bulgarian clashes, of huge preparations of the Turks against the slightest possibilities of movement. Or a real fool. These were the exact words of one of the high-ranking persons deciding the fate of Balkan Slavism in a discussion with me concerning the Macedonian committees. Nobody in Europe, none of the Great Powers can actively intercede in favor of the Macedonians against the Turks at the present moment - except, perhaps, Austria. Bu the very name of Austria causes panic in the Macedonian Slav element, who will allow Austria to reign in Macedonia? For it would be the destruction of all ideas of pan-Slavism, it would be the end of the Eastern Question, it would be the decisive and last victory of the German world over the Slav world. Then, we the Russians, would only be humbly left to falling out of step with that state with the projected historical tasks, with the repudiation of racial ideals - a state similar to modern Italy or Spain, only in greater proportions. The young Slav states, adjacent to Macedonia, are too young and too poor to go into struggle for it. At the same time, these states are disintegrating both from the internal situation and external family hostilities. The Bulgarians and the Serbians cannot stand each other; each consider Macedonia as their lawful property. Neither the Bulgarians nor the Serbs have even the slightest desire to create Macedonia for Macedonia. Enthusiast for an autonomous Macedonia can only be found among the Macedonian natives. Neither the Serb nor the Bulgarian wants the autonomy of Macedonia. As far as the question of whether Macedonia should become Bulgarian or Serbian is concerned, every Bulgarian would tell you with utter sincerity: -It would be better that the Turks ruled there eternally then to give the Serbs a chance to spread towards the Aegean Sea. And the Serb would say: - It would be better that the Turks did there whatever they allow your damned brothers to achieve their Greater Bulgaria from one sea to the other! The question of nationality has not been settled in Macedonia and it is hard to assume that it will ever be settled in a satisfactory manner. If we are to believe Gopcevic and Jasterbov there are almost no Bulgarians - all of the are Serbs. If we are to believe Ofejkov and Miljukov, there are no Serbs, all of them are Bulgarians. It is more probable that where we are dealing with a perfectly branch of Slavs, transitional between the Bulgarians and the Serbs. But that branch taken alone is insufficiently significant to win its freedom and turn itself into a state unit. Consequently, no matter how the question of its nationality is resolved, it is deprived of the possibility to exist, so to say; it is cursed in itself to serve as political material directly for its neighbors, and deviously and indirectly for Europe, which governs its naighbours. The basic reason for the failures of the Macedonian revolutionary organization lies in the fact that it is fed by means that have historically proved their ineffectiveness against state order of a European kind to overthrow the system and authority that have nothing in common with European order; since with the tactics, which have overthrown many European government, it attempts to erase military slavery, which has continued in Macedonia and Old Serbia for five centuries now; since the arms, victorious in the civil war, are also used in external war, because the Turk is not a fellow-citizen and compatriot of the Slavs, but he was, is and will be their external enemy... - They consider me a Bulgarophile, I.A. Zinovjev told me. But it isn't so at all. I behave in perfectly equal manner to all Slavs, and, if a person is decent and likable, it is all the same to me whether he is a Bulgarian, a Serb or a Macedonian. But I am a Russian representative and I have been sent here to protect, first of all, Russian interests. Permanent patronage over the Balkan Slavs is inseparably linked with Russian interests. We are their natural patrons. But this patronage does not mean Russia's following of Slav leaders; patronage is not characterless yielding. However, as far as the Macedonian question is concerned, the Bulgarians, as our most spoilt children in the whole of the Slav world, would like precisely to lead Russia with them where they have blindly started closing their eyes, demanding that the patronage be turned into yielding. The activities of the Macedonian committees, long under the patronage (with) our tolerance of the Bulgarian government, had the following direct calculation: - We shall force the Turks to abandon their reserved behavior they have taken up and borne with difficulty - wit a series of small explosions, murders and blackmails we shall arose the fanatic excitement of the Moslems, the Sultan will be forced to give in to the demands of his subjects of the same faith, and Turkish atrocities will start in Macedonia, blood will be shed, villages will be burnt. For the attainment of the sublime goal it is of no consequence whether fifty or fifty thousand people will be killed - the main thing is: slaughter must be caused, which will in turn cause the necessity of European intervention, and since the protection of the Slavs is the perennial deed of Russia and it will never leave the Macedonian question to Austria - consequently, volens-nolens, Russia shall have to send again hundred of thousands of soldiers to the Balkan Peninsula and achieve the freedom of Macedonia with its bayonets, i.e. it should put the land into the mouth of the Bulgarians. For they don't recognize any other nationality in Macedonia except the Bulgarian one. Consequently, the future freedom of Macedonia for them is either the fulfillment of the Treaty of San Stefano and unification of Macedonia with the Bulgarian Principality, or a creation of a new autonomous Bulgarian body, which will sooner or later be merged with the former into an 'integral Bulgaria'.... Cvetan Stanoevski, Kako ja vidoa Makedonija, Skopje 1978, pp.189-190,193-194.
1903
Victor Berard on the Macedonians. The ambition for a small homeland, the egotism of a small nation, is not the ultimate ideal of the Macedonians. To replace Turkish subjugation with Greek, Serbian or Bulgarian dependence does not seem to them to represent some great gain...Until recently France did not know the Macedonians. They were Thracian, Peons, Sclavins for us, a wild and almost a mythical people, that lived somewhere at the bottom of some unknown land for us. We either did not know them or despised them, since we heard of them from the malicious notes of the ancient and modern Greeks... La Revue de Paris, Juin 1903.
1904
A Macedonian Theory Was it so long before the liberation of the Bulgarians that throughout Bulgaria, in answer to the question as to what they were (by nationality), the Bulgarians said they were "Christians" or raya (non-Moslem Turkish subjects)?And even now it is not so rare on occasion to hear a Bulgarian answering in court as to the question of his nationality that he is a "Christian". The notion of nationality has still not become a new accomplishment of his mind. During the Turkish period, the Bulgarian peasant referred to the Bulgarians in the towns as "Greeks" and city lother were "Greek dress" for him. And since the Greeks designated that peasant as a "fat-headed Bulgar", his brother from the town loved to be called a "Hellene", so that he should not be scorned for his real national name. It is not exactly the same case with what Mr. Misirkov elaborates concerning the name of the Macedonian Slav? The name "Bulgar" fell even in Bulgaria to such position which earned only the contempt of the others. This name appeared so empty even in the mouth of the Bulgarians themselves that it became a synonym for "Christian"; the later designated the whole ethnic contents of Bulgarian individual and social consciousness. When our peasant used to say "we are Bulgars", he meant "we are Christians", i.e. Orthodox. The Russian Tsar was a "Bulgarian Tsar" for him not by nationality, but by Orthodox Christianity. A. Teodorov-Balan, Edna makedonska teorija - Periodichesko spisanie (Sofia), LXV (1904), p.818
1907-1908
The Macedonian Villages ...I asked him what language they spoke, and my Greek interpreter carelessly rendered the answer Bulgare. The man himself had said Makedonski. I drew attention to this word and the witness explained that he did not consider the rural dialect used in Macedonia the same as Bulgarian, and refused to call it by that name. It was Macedonian, a word to which he gave the Slav form of Makedonski, but which I was to hear farther north in the Greek form of Makedonike. And so the "Bulgarophone" villagers are no longer willing to admit that they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a new term of their own accord, and henceforth their dialect, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as "Macedonian". My Athenian friends were delighted when I told them of this on my return. It should give even greater pleasure to those Bulgarian agents who are so anxious to see the Macedonians thought they are Macedonians. Allen Upward, The East End of Europe, London 1908, pp. 204-205
June 25, 1910
Archimandrite Neophyte in Skopje to Bulgarian Exarch Joseph in Constantinople: Starting from some time ago, as I have already informed You several times, matters in the eparchy, and especially here have not developed as they should. The Eparchy Council, which, as You know, consists of the town's elders, has decided to send You a letter in which it strongly condemns the candidature of the former Metropolitan of Skopje, Theodosius, and among other things, upon my suggestion writes the following in the protest: "Outraged, we read in the newspapers that a group of villains wishes at any cost to urge the population - the voters of the Skopje Eparchy - to bring back that typical intransigent, Theodosious, as the Metropolitan of the Skopje Eparchy. This is the same Theodosius who 17 or 18 years ago wanted to separate the Skopje Eparchy from the Exarchate and proclaim himself an independent Metropolitan. For this purpose, he then made a special seal on which he deleted the words "Bulgarian Exarchate", so sacred to us, and printed his own baptismal certificates, marriage certificates and other documents; he did not fulfill the circular letters and the orders of the Exarchate, etc. Yet, since at that time there were not such a strong anti-Bulgarian movement among the local Bulgarians, it was possible for the Exarchate to remove this dangerous schismatic in time and thereby preserve the unity of the Bulgarian Church in Turkey. Now this same schismatic, contrary to Exarchist interests, wishes to restore his eparchy and continue his dishonest business of disuniting our Bulgarian people. We protest most strongly against his nomination as Metropolitan of Skopje, because he insults the Bulgarian feeling among the population". Unfortunately, Your Grace, if the Eparchy Council has such people with common sense, this is not the case with some craftsman's circles, which have come under the influence of Mr. Petar Pop Arsov, a teacher, who has taken the idea into his head that he is a leader of the people. He constantly speaks against the Exarchate and its leadership, including myself, and urges the craftsman to support Metropolitan Theodosios' candidature, since he once suffered for defending the interests of the Macedonians. It would not be superfluous if I informed You about another problem, which, I presume, will represent a kind of plot in this whole election propaganda. I have understood from some members of the Council that Krste Petkov, who at one time started "Misirkovism", had requested from certain relative of his, living here in Skopje, that he put him in touch with this teacher, Petar Pop Arsov, in connection with collecting songs about Krale Marko in the Skopje district, and Mr. Pop Arsov was so kind as to agree immediately. I am writing this to you, Your Grace, a justified suspicion that schismatic forces are being brought to life here. The said Mr. Krste Misirkov expressed in a letter to his relative has desire to return to Macedonia, more precisely, to come to Skopje as soon as Macedonia was liberated. The man wished to be a professor at the Skopje university (?!). If this is true, and there are no reasons for lying to me, then You may conclude Yourself what danger threatens the Bulgarian idea in these historic times. Just imagine if the "Misirkovism" of Mr. Krste, the "separatism' of His Grace Theodosius and the "autonomism" of Mr. Petar Pop Arsov joined together! I am of the opinion, Your Grace, upon the basis of the protest by the Eparchy Council (which was, after all, published in the press) that the candidature of His Grace Theodosius should be withdrawn, by which a danger of as yet unseen proportions for the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia would be evaded. I remain Your Grace's younger brother in Jesus Christ and I pray for You. S. Dimevski, Diskusija - K.P. Misirkov i nacionalno-kulturniot razvoj na makedonskiot narod do Osloboduvanjeto - Zbornik Misirkov. Simpozium. Skopje, Institut za makedonski jazik, 1975, pp.338-339. 1905(?)
Sveta Simic, representative of the Kingdom of Serbia in Bulgaria, to Jovan Jovanovich-Pizon, head of the consular department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Belgrade. D. Gruev again visited me last Saturday. D. Hristov also chanced to be in my house, so we spent more then 3 hours in discussion. The Macedonians have been afraid that the Bulgarians and we agreed to divide them, and accordingly they are the only ones left to frown at the Imperial Alliance. They suspect it hides something else. They continually make agreements and preparations but undertake nothing more serious. They constantly send smaller bands and ammunition into their country. All their activity is reduced to this only in present. They would like to make an agreement with us, but such as to sacrifice nothing of what they call their autonomy. They have come to see more and more that there are obstacles before them which they cannot fight successfully, and under the influence of which they continually lose their importance as an authoritative factor in the development of the Maced(onian) question. This is what hurts them immensely. They are divided among themselves, just as before. The differences of their views also intensify their personal hatred, which makes some of them avoid the others, plotting among themselves....Unfavorable rumors reach us from Macedonia, too. The people, craving for freedom, would like to reject their yoke and uncertainty as soon as possible, so that they would be ready for some decisive steps as well, but their distrust both of their leaders and Bulgaria prevent them. Under the influence of the news about the Imperial Alliance a mood has been created in which they would like to be freed from their yoke at any cost, even if they were compelled to come under Bulgaria and Serbia. And if these two did not help them, they would gladly accept Austrian occupation, as well... Arhiv SFR Jugoslavije (Belgrade) - Fond Jovan Jovanovic-Pizon, 80 (1905).
1906
To my brother in arms, Dushan, voyvoda from the village of Bistrica Brother, you should know that I have received your letter and understood all that you wrote me. We have put the people in great trouble, it is true, but who is to blame for this? You say we are to blame, we say you are to blame. As far as I know, ten years have passed (and) has never been over those years any bloodshed between ourselves or division into Serbomans or Bulgarophils. We have been Macedonian fighters and we will fight to the end for the Macedonian people, but we do not fight for Bulgaria or Serbia, nor Greece; they are free and live freely and drink in shaded inns; they have the right to drink so since they shed their blood earlier. We, who come from this Macedonian land should work for Macedonia, because our Macedonian brothers are murdered on the roads and our Macedonian sisters are disgraced by the bloody Turk, by the fat Turk. We are not against any nationality of either Bulgaria, Serbia, or Greece; we should recognize the merit of those who would help us. If there had been any Serbian, Bulgarian or Greek land here, they should not have waited for us to die in the mountains but should have liberated Macedonia with their armies; only then they could have demanded Serbia, Bulgarian or Greek land here... Blazhe Krusheski DA SSID - Fond Izvrshnog odbora Srpske narodne organizacije F-6 (1906)
1912
A.V. Amfiteatrov: Macedonia ...Following the Russian war, Turkey of the old regime finally turned into a "sick man", and the heirs of the executors of the expected will gathered around his death-bed. The future destiny of Macedonia came to depend not as much on the will of Turkey itself as on the sympathies of the European guardians. In the 19th century Europe learned through Germany, Italy and Greece to consider the right to national self-determination a little. Thus, all the states and countries bordering on Macedonia have started intensive propaganda in favor of their nationalities, as it were a race or along jump for an award. They have taken care, as much as they have means and power, to persuade Europe by truth and lies, that allegedly the national self-determination of the Macedonian inclines in their favor, and not in favor of the neighboring nation. In this respect the Bulgarians proved more swift the their rivals. In order to make Macedonia Bulgarian, they had to Bulgarize the Macedonians. Thus, following the Bulgaro-Serbian War of 1885, the greatest powers and considerable sacrifices of the Bulgarian state apparatus were given to the Bulgarization of the Macedonian Slavs. Bulgarian agents were the priests and the teachers; the comitajis and band-members became the secret government of the country and, allegedly, its soul. In the beginning the propaganda was exceedingly successful. Miljukov, who visited Macedonia towards the end of the nineties, looked at it too much through Bulgarian glasses and - so to say - proclaimed all the Macedonians to be full-blooded Bulgarians. But his mistake can be considered as made with clear conscience. He found Macedonia so profoundly and brilliantly Bulgarized that it is no wonder that he took the clothes for the body - the culture for the nationality. Those who have read The Land of Discord know my view about the Macedonians. They are neither Serbs nor Bulgarians, but a primordial Slav people with simple basic language which is to a great degree able to be subject to any form offered by another, more influential and more developed Slav culture. There are Macedonian Bulgarians where the Bulgarian school and Church are firmly established, and Serbs where literacy is in the hands of the Serbs. They could have been turned with the same ease, under the influence of education, religion and commerce, into Little Russians, Great Russians or Poles. Their language is melted metal which can easily be molded into any kindred form. But - a related one. So, it is national kinship which is the main reason for making Macedonia a center of confrontation between the Slavs and for destroying the Greek influence in it. Statistics about Macedonia are confusing, tendentious and fantastic. In spite of that, even according to Greek sources, it is easy to see the Hellenes represent a minority in the Macedonian vilayets. As a result of this and aiming to create a majority, the Greeks had to resort to sufficiently unscrupulous falsifications, counting all Slav Patriarchists as Greeks. These are Slavs who have not acknowledged the Exarchate but remained faithful to the Constatinople Patriarchate, although they speak only Slavic. In this way the Greeks have come to understand one's nationality in the same manner as the Turks - religion equals nationality. A patriarchist - means a Greek... C. Stanoevski, Kako ja vidoa Makedonija, pp.210-211.
1912
Bulgarian statesman Dimitar Rizov on his nationality ....In the golden months of the successful beginning of the war against the Turks, he spoke to me as a convinced Yugoslav (South Slav). He explained to me, I being a Croat, the real situation of matters in Macedonia and said that it was shame that the first free Slav state had not been founded in Macedonia, which would equally attract to union the Bulgarians and the Serbs, and would be a bond and not a cause of discord between the Serbs and the Bulgarians...He told me that the Macedonians, to tell the objective truth, were neither Bulgarians nor Serbs, but Macedonian Slavs who spoke in their own individual Macedonian language or dialect. ..."Our people", he said, "were only 'Macedonian Christians,' and then, when Greek propaganda developed they become 'Macedonian Christian Slavs'. It was all the same to us which Christian country would help us to free ourselves from the Turks. I was born in Bitola. There were several grammar-schools in Bitola: Turkish, Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian. It was all the same to us, the Slavs, which Slav grammar-school we attended. For example, alongside many of my friends who later became Bulgarians, I attended the Serbian grammar-school. It is true that the teachers in the grammar-school told we were Serbs, just as those in the Bulgarian grammar-school were told that we were Bulgarians, but we kept our own counsel, and that was what our parents told us at home: it does not matter, let them talk, but we are Macedonian Christian Slavs..." Ivan Meshtrovic, famous Croatian sculptor, Uspomene na politichke ljude i dogagjaje. Zagreb 1969, pp. 25-26, 39.
March 1, 1913
Memorandum on the Independence of Macedonia submitted by the Macedonian colony in St. Petersburg to the Conference of the representatives of the Great Powers in London. ...it is more suitable for all the neighbors of Macedonia that this country remain undivided, since by any division, sections of our living compatriots will remain under foreign authority and will perish. The Macedonians have won their right to self-determination over their whole recent history, as well...The Serbs and the Bulgarians deliberately say nothing about these huge Macedonian victories and permit nobody to write about them...As a result of all this, the Macedonian Colony in St.Petersburg, fulfilling its sacred duty towards its fatherland and conscientiously applying the slogan "Macedonia to the Macedonians", protests and cannot remain indifferent when the allied Balkan states (Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece) - our brothers in blood and faith - aim to dismember our fatherland....Here is what is needed for the Macedonian people; 1. Macedonia should remain a single, indivisible and independent Balkan state with it geographic, ethnographic, historical, economic and political borders. 2. A Macedonian national assembly should be established on the basis of general elections in Salonika in the soonest possible time, which would work out in detail the internal structure of the state and determine its relations with the neighboring states. Makedonskii Golos, St. Petersburg 1913-1914
1913
Nace Dimov Chupovski: A Political Survey of Macedonia and the Macedonians. In examining the Macedonian question from the political point of view, I shall not deal with the old times....Condemned at first to Roman rule, and then to Byzantine oppression, and finally to Turkish slavery, the terrible name of Macedonian found shelter from generation to generation in Macedonian hearts only...In the same towns and villages, the priests that receive salary from the Bulgarian Exarchate call themselves Bulgarians, those that receive salary from the Serbian Metropolitan office call themselves Serbians...Besides, the Macedonians were always allies and participants both in the liberation of the Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians....From all that has been previously mentioned, I dare say that the Macedonians have a one hundred percent right to autonomy and not to being subjected to dismembering among the Greeks, the Serbs and Bulgarians. Disregarding this fact, the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian governments, aiming to extend their frontiers into Macedonians territory, spare no means and exterminate the Macedonians who refuse to call themselves Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians...The Macedonian people will not reconcile themselves either with those who aspire to deprive them of their language, customs and the natural desire to be free masters of their own house. Hence, only if the Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians renounce their aspirations will Macedonia live in a friendly way .... N.D. Dimov, Istoricheskii ocherk Makedonii i makedonskih slavjan - Peterburg, 1913
June 7, 1913
To the Governments and the Public of the Allied Balkans States The Macedonians have continually, over the centuries, risen up and fought for independence and freedom, and by their persistent struggle aided the liberation of Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria....More then on hundred thousand Macedonian fighters have fought shoulder to shoulder with the allied armies....Instead of Macedonia, celebrated by Alexander of Macedon, consecrated by the Apostle St. Paul, dignified by the activity of the holy brothers SS. Cyril and Methodius....instead of united, integral and free Macedonia, European diplomacy, and alongside it, you, too, our brothers - allies and liberators, are tearing us into pieces and defiling our sacred ideals....Remember, brother Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks, that you were reborn to start a new life only after 14 bloody wars of Russia against the Ottoman Empire...Remember that a dismembered Macedonia will be an eternal apple of discord among you. Remember that also in the past times of history one after another state perished in the struggle for Macedonia and do not continue the bloody list of the dead in the present time.... Macedonia should be an independent state within its ethnographic, geographical, cultural and historical boundaries, with a government accountable to a national assembly...a national representative body should be established...in the city of Salonika, elected by general vote. Brother allies and liberators! We hope that our words will reach your hearts and minds.... St. Petersburg Signed by the authorized representatives Makedonskii Golos, St. Petersburg, pp. 52-55
September 5, 1913
Dimitrija Chupovski: What did Bulgaria represent for Macedonia The Bucharest Conference of the Balkan states completely destroyed Article 23 of the Berlin Congress which stipulated the introduction of reforms in Macedonia as a self-governing province of Turkey. At the time this stipulation gave wings to the hopes of the Macedonians for the possibility of creating an autonomous Macedonia and proved to be a counter-balance to the stipulations of the Treaty of San Stefano, which defaced Macedonia by its inclusion within the boundaries of Greater Bulgaria. However, regardless of the stipulations of the Berlin Congress, the Treaty of San Stefano constantly instigated the Bulgarians to actions for creating a Greater Bulgaria at the expanse of Macedonia and they continually spent millions of rubles for agitation in Macedonia by opening their own, purely Bulgarian, schools and churches. As a result of this, Bulgaria began regarding itself as the only future liberator of Macedonia, comparing its role in the cause of the liberation of macedonia with the role of Russia in the liberating Russo-Turksih War. We, however, cannot agree at all with such a comparison....Russia was Bulgaria's liberator, and accordingly, to compare its role with the role of Bulgaria in the present war is, at the very least, absurd and ridiculous for our contemporaries, before whose eyes this tragicomedy was being acted. The role of Bulgaria as regards to Macedonia was from the very beginning criminal; it was first to violate...the article of the Berlin Treaty which bound Turkey to introduce reforms in Macedonia. Moreover, carrying out unbearable, extremely chauvinist, propaganda among the Macedonians through its Constantinople Patriarchate, Bulgaria was the first to cause rivalry and the introduction of similar propaganda by the Greeks and the Serbs, thus instilling discord among the Macedonians. During the whole 30 years of its existence as a state, Bulgaria has carried out anti-Macedonian policy. Flattering and attracting the Macedonians to its side. at the same time it persecuted them with ferocity and hatred and strove to destroy in them any idea of an autonomous Macedonia; while doing so, the Bulgarians did not shrink from using any means. Thus, in 1888, the Bulgarian Government destroyed the 'Macedonian Literary Society' under the presidency of Georgi Pulevski....Two years later, in that same Sofia, the Bulgarian Government closed the evening schools, specially opened for the emigrant Macedonian craftsman, and the heads of those schools. Macedonian patriots - Damjan Gruev, Delchev, Petre Pop Arsov and many others - were expelled from Bulgaria. In addition, let us consider just those persecution to which the so-called Internal Macedonian Organization was exposed, working on the spiritual revival of Macedonia and its political liberation. Its members were persecuted both by the Bulgarian government and the Exarchate, the local instrument of those governments. In order to paralyze the successes resulting from the activity of the Internal Macedonian Organization, the Bulgarian government formed with Macedonian emigrant a requisite counter-Macedonian organization (made of the dregs(?) of society), known under the name of the Supreme Macedonian-Adrianople Committee, the task of which was to trumpet to the whole world that Macedonia is a purely Bulgarian country. Who does not know the shameful role of this Committee shown through its activity on the partition of Macedonia as a whole and of the Macedonian intelligentsia in particular? Guided by the Bulgarian government through its teachers and generals of the type of Mihajlovski and Conchev, this Committee acted against the Macedonian liberation movement and worked with all means on the annexation of macedonia to Bulgaria. Still more criminal was the role of Bulgaria in this shameful 'liberation' war. Did not Bulgaria hold long negotiations concerning the division of Macedonia with its present occupiers? Did it not, according to the treaty of 29th February 1912 with the Serbs, give to them the whole western section of Macedonia and thus violate its integrity? Did not Bulgaria, which attracted Greece, too, to the Serbo-Bulgarian alliance, start to divide Macedonia? Could it not know that the Greeks might join the alliance only because they had in mind the acquisition of the southern section of Macedonia? Is not Bulgaria to be blamed for the partition of Macedonia, hiding the real aim of the war from the representatives of the Macedonian people, which it had to reckon with. On the contrary, starting the war, it declared to the Macedonians that it was fighting against Turkey alongside the allies for their liberation. Allowing the Macedonians to organize themselves into military units, Bulgaria committed a hunderdfold crime, because it did not allow them to fight against Turkey in their native land, but directed them to Thrace, towards the shore of the Sea of Marmara, under the walls of Adrianople and the trenches of Chataldzha, which weren't needed, except for a bunch of Bulgarian glory-hunters; and the happened at the same time when the allied Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks were conquering Macedonia. How can we explain this criminal act of the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians, if not by the fear that those same Macedonians with arms in their hands would defend their homeland equally from any encroachments upon its independence? But in fact Bulgaria thus ruined not only Macedonia but also all its future. Shedding now crocodile tears for the lost Macedonia, did Bulgaria at the proper time make any attempt to preservethe indivisibility of Macedonia, which it likes to call its younger sister?How can some Bulgarian patriots claim that Bulgaria was in respect to Macedonia that biblical mother which appeared before Solomon's court? Would not a mother worthy of setting an example rather prefer to renounce her own son in only he could thus remain intact? However, as we all know, Bulgaria was the first to agree to the partition of Macedonia.Why has not Bulgaria up to this moment acted like a real "native mother" with her unselfishness, with motherly generosity towards macedonia, with a project for its autonomy? This is exactly the attitude of Bulgaria which could have ensured the integrity and indivisibility of macedonia, peace among the Balkan peoples and would have preserved the dignity of the "native mother" herself - Bulgaria. What hindered it, having included the item about the autonomy of Macedonia in the treaty, from raising at the proper time the question about the realization of that item? Nobody hinder it at all, but it did not make any attempts itself to raise this question. It did not make this attempt after the end of the first half of the war, when it realized that its allies of yesterday, the Serbs and the Greeks, having occupied Macedonia, would not like to leave it.And instead of submitting a project for autonomy, it decided to go to war, in order to gain as great as possible a section of Macedonia for itself.Even following the defeat, when the question was posed not for Macedonia but for Bulgaria itself - I am referring here to the Conference of Bucharest, where Bulgaria was "generously" offered an eighth or tenth part of Macedonia - here, too, it preferred to take that part, and did not follow the example of the biblical mother, renouncing its share of the child. I repeat, the following of this, there are some people again who compare the present position of Bulgaria to the position of Russia in the liberating Russo-Turksih War, with a desire in this way to represent it in the role of the same unselfish liberator as Russia was with regard to Bulgaria itself, refusing to see that the main reason for the misfortunes of macedonia were precisely the Bulgaria aspiration towards this long tortured land. Dimitrija Chupovski, Makednoskii Golos, pp. 130-133
July 20, 1916
Rene Picard: The Autonomy of Macedonia The idea of Macedonia autonomy is familiar to all those who are acquainted with Balkan history and politics. If we asked the Christians of Macedonia they would answer that autonomy was the most desirable solution for them. There is and, in fact, there has always been a Macedonian spirit in Macedonia. Geographically, Macedonia has its own unity. Its borders are the following: to the south - Mt. Olympus, the mountains on the north bank of the River Bistrica, Lake Prespa and Lake Ohrid; to the west - the Drim from Debar; to the northwest and north - the Shar Mountains, the highlands north of Skopje, the defile of Kumanovo, the mountains that mark the Serbo-Bulgarian frontiers of before 1912; to the east - the Rhodope Mountains. The borderline with Thrace on this side is not clear. The regions of Drama and Kavalla can either be adjoined to macedonia or separated from it; the plain of Drama is populated mostly by Turks; the town of Kavalla, like all the ports, has a strong Greek colony. To the south, the Chalcidice Peninsula is geographically Macedonian, but ethnographically Greek; the line of lakes separates it by a natural border from the rest of Macedonia... Les archives du Ministere des affiars etrangeres (Paris). Guerre 1914-1918, Balkans, Dossier generale, pp.158-165.
Dimitar Blagoev on the nationality of the Macedonians (Bulgarian Parliament session) December 10, 1917...D. Blagoev: Subordinate, but indipendant in their internal affairs. Someone from the left: Don't forget history. D.B.: What history? The one you falsify? (Laughter) We do not recognize such history. We see how things are in reality. It is a fact, gentleman national delegates, that there was a great struggle between the Bulgarian and the Slav peoples in the Balkan peninsula. And that process, descirebd by Mr. Sakszov and supportedd by others, was not aimed at the unification of the Bulgarian people but at domination over the Slav peoples in the Balkan Peninsula who moved en masse to Byzantium and Asia Minor, and on the other hand, went to the south, towards Macedonia
1918
Rudolph Archibald Reiss on the Macedonians I said I would rather call your Bulgarophones Macedonians. You call these people Bulgarophones, owing to their language which is similar to Bulgarian. But, is it Bulgarian, is the same language spoken in Sofia? No. Macedonian is just as similar to Serbian as it is to Bulgarian. I am not a linguist and I would not allow myself a personal judgment, but disinterested Balaknologist have asserted to me that Macedonian is more similar to Serbian the Bulgarian. It is possible that there are linguists who assert the opposite. But it is a fact that the Macedonia language is spoken neither in Sofia nor in Belgrade. It is an individual Slav language, just as we have the Romansch in Switzerland, spoken in Grisons, apart from Italian. To my mind, the Macedonian can be called neither Bulgarian nor Serb, but simply Macedonian. R.A. Reiss, Sur la situation des Macedonianes et des musulmans dans les nouvelles provinces grecques. Paris, 1918, pp.6-7.
January 4, 1919
Sister Augustine Bewicke on the Macedonian autonomy St. Paul's Hospital, Salonika Dear Sir, Please excuse the liberty I take in writing you, it is because the final settlement in the Balkans is of vital interest to the Catholics in these countries. - I have been 33 years in this Mission, the Uniate Catholic Mission, which at the beginning of the Second Balkan War counted about 10,000 Catholics. The Treaty of Bucharest, which divided Macedonia without any regard to justice, was the cause of these poor people being dispersed on account of their Slav language, which was forbidden in Churches and schools. - The Bishop had his residence in Salonika, he has now been in exile more then 3 years, his priests are dispersed, his flock is indeed without pastors, nor do we have any hope of his return to any place under Greek or Serbian rule. - The Greeks will not admit the Slav language in Churches or schools; the inhabitants of Macedonia are in the great majority Slavs; they call themselves Macedonians, and what they desire and what we ardently desire for them is an autonomy under European control. - I whatever way Macedonia might be divided, the people would be always discontented, and would fight again as soon as possible. The only hope I can foresee is in strong autonomy, which neither Greeks nor Bulgars nor Serbs would dare attack; then the Macedonians, who are really intelligent and docile when they are well treated. would peacefully develop this beautiful fertile country... Surely Europe will not leave Macedonia under people whom the Macedonians hate, and whom they will continually fight... Public Record Office (London) - FO 608/44. Peace Conference (British delegation), 1919.
April 10, 1919
Protest from the Provisional representative of the IMRO to the Paris Peace Conference To His Excellency, Monsieur Clemanceau, President of the Council: It is duty of my honor, as a delegate of the Macedonian Committees to the High Peace Conference, to protest against the maneuvers of certain suspicious persons who claim to speak in the name of Macedonia and represent some so-called "Executive Committee of the Macedonian Societies". Let me be allowed to indicate that the Macedonian emigrants to Bulgaria have over the past 30 years created quite a small class of Macedonians Bulgarized to such a point that they sacrifice completely the interests of their native land to those of Bulgaria. People who have two homelands are generally suspicious; what to say, on the other hand, about those who do not hesitate to propose as delegates to the Conference two persons such as Aleksandrov and Protogerov, adherents to the Kaiser and Ferdinand, and organizers of the massacres in Nish? Indeed, there is noone else who could more compromise the cause of "Autonomous Macedonia" before the Aeropagus of the victors! Hence I have the honor to point out that the only Macedonian Societies free from any Bulgarian political influence, or any other, and representing loyally the whole of Macedonia, without distinction of language or religion, are the Macedonian Committees, which starting from the 1893 constituted the IMRO... It is in their name, and by no means in the name of Bulgaria or the Bulgarians, that I have already had the honor to request and now I am requesting again from Your Excellency to grant me an audience so that I may present to You the desires of the Macedonian people... Archimandrite Paul Christoff, General Vicar of Thrace, delegate of the Macedonian Committees. A. Lainovich, Jugoslavika u biblioteci za savremenu - medzhunarodnu dokumentaciju u Parizu - Godishen zbornik na FF, 24-25 (1972-73) pp. 88-89
July 1919
Bulgarian Nikola Pushkarov on "The Economic Wealth of Macedonia and its Neighbors" All the neighbors of Macedonia wish her well. Each of them tries through all means to convince the Macedonians of its significance as a savior. When the population of Macedonia doubts the sincerity of the unwanted liberators, they even prove to it the opposite by the sword. And each of the neighbors denies the other the right to be a liberator. The neighbors waged wars in this dispute, they had been fighting among themselves for years to the right of Macedonia's liberators. They exhausted the three neighboring peoples and almost exterminated the Macedonian people. The wars ended, because the peoples realized that the liberation of Macedonia had turned into enormous increase of the capital of the false patriots at the expanse of the peoples ' blood and sweat. Today the exhausted peoples, exasperated by the terrible patriotic deeds of the false patriots, demand payment for the lies, for the terrible lies which threw them into terrible rows. But the false patriots of the neighbors do not despair; they have created special agencies of mercenaries responsible for proving by excusable and inexcusable means how the Macedonians most closely belong to the "homeland" of their patrons. They have called the population of this unfortunate land either "Bulgarophone Greeks", or "Macedonians Slavo-Serbs,: or "brothers beyond Mount Rila."... ...It is the wealth of Macedonia which makes the false patriots of her neighbors mad with "patriotism". Makes them burn with desire to cut off as large as possible a portion of Macedonia for themselves to "liberate" it, i.e. to deprive the Macedonians of the chance of governing themselves. But you must keep your land, Macedonians, from the false good wishes of those individuals. They will bring you a new slavery, harsher then the former. Your land is entirely capable of an independent existence. ...Unite around the banner of the autonomy of your homeland, because it is the only banner which you will not be persecuted for not being a Greek, Serb or Bulgarian, but simply Macedonian. Bjoletin br. 8 (19.VII.1919) pp.7-8
November 18, 1919
Telegram from the General Council of the Macedonian Societies in Switzerland to the Peace Conference in Paris ..Assembled at its plenary session and working in the name of the whole of the Macedonian people, without serving any foreign policy, energetically protest against the clause allowing the Macedonians the right to opt for Bulgarian nationality. We do not want to be made instruments of Bulgarian irredentism in Macedonia. Macedonia has never been a part of the present Bulgarian Kingdom. The Bulgarian diplomats, who bear part of the responsibilities for the misfortunes of the Macedonian population, are by no means qualified to intercede in favor of our cause and have no right to do it... Secretary: Bl. Bojadziev; Vice-Persident: G. Nikolov Lj. Lape, Aktivnosta na Glavniot odbor, p. 190

Garrick
02-02-11, 22:49
ok, looking forward to hear...
but tomorrow...

How yes no,
Here's the research of international and Pakistani scientists have found a Haplogroup E1b1b1 (formerly E3b1) in tribe of Pathans in Pakistan.

Although this is not ultimate proof that Alexander the Great was haplogroup E, if one of the elite soldier or his entourage was the E carrier indicates an increased likelihood that Alexander the Great was E carrier.

Although scientists speak of the Greeks, can be read on forums that the Albanians used this research to demonstrate the Illyrian/Albanian descent of Alexander the Great, as the E haplogroup in Europe is the most common percentage of Albanians Gega.

Sadaf Firasat1 et al

Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan


Eur J Hum Genet., 2007 January


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/pdf/ukmss-2934.pdf (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/pdf/ukmss-2934.pdf)

Clade E lineages were more frequent in the Greeks (21%) as compared to Pakistan (4%). The majority of haplogroup E chromosomes belonged to clade E3b and all Greek and Pakistani samples were resolved into the branches E3b1 (M78) and E3b3 (M123). Among the three Pakistani populations claiming Greek descent, this clade was observed only in
the Pathans. The Pathan samples belonged to clade E3b1 which constituted 17% of the Greek samples.

A median-joining network of clade E Y chromosomes was constructed in order to examine the genetic relationship between these Greek and Pathan samples. A duplication of 10 and 13 repeat units was observed in the clade-E-derived Y chromosomes for the trinucleotide repeat DYS425 and this locus was, therefore, excluded from the network. The most striking feature of this network was the sharing of haplotypes between the Pathan and Greek samples (Figure 2). One Pathan individual shared the same Y-STR haplotype with three Greek individuals, and the other Pathan sample was separated from this cluster by a single mutation at the DYS436 locus. This demonstrates a very close relationship between the Pathan and Greek E lineages, but how surprising is this?

Worldwide data for the 16-element haplotype are not available, but a subset of nine of the STRs are included in by the Y-STR Haplotype Reference Database (YHRD) 20 and were used to search this. The haplotype DYS19=13; 389I=13; 389II=30; 390=24; 391=10; 392=11; 393=13; 438=10; 439=12 was found in 53 individuals in a worldwide population sample of 7,897 haplotypes and was highly specific for the Balkans (Figure 3). The contour map shows a major concentration around Macedonia and Greece, with a low scattering in other European countries, Tunisia, West Africa and the Pathans. This gives a strong indication of a European, possibly Greek, origin of these Pathan Y chromosomes.

DejaVu
02-02-11, 22:49
COUNCIL FOR RESEARCH INTO SOUTH-EASTERN EUROPE OF THE MACEDONIAN ACADEMY OF SCIENCES AND ARTS

THE MACEDONIAN QUESTION IN FOREIGN RELATIONS


The Macedonian question appeared in foreign relations in the 1870's during the great Eastern Crisis when armed uprisings for liberation of the subdued peoples started in the Balkans. The uprisings in Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1875, in Bulgaria in April 1876 and in Macedonia in 1876 raised the question of the further existence of the Ottoman Turkish Empire in Europe. Following its current policy for the Balkans, Russia opposed the policies of the great Western European powers to retain the integrity of the Ottoman state, guaranteed by the Treaty of Paris concluded on April 15th 1856, and supported the fight of the conquered nations for liberation and independence. The Russian political programme devised several years before by counsellor Gorchakov was announced at the end of 186 and included a solution to the Macedonian question. The Russian plans for the Balkans anticipated a direct involvement of Russia in the liberation of the Orthodox Christian peoples and creation of national states: independence and territorial expansion for Serbia and Montenegro (in their ethnic borders), establishment of two Bulgarian principalities (north and south of the Stara mountain as counter-balance to the two Serbian principalities), and a separate, independent Macedonian principality. The Macedonian question divided the interests of Austria-Hungary and Russia. The Austro-Hungarian Minister for Foreign Affairs, Count Abrashi, requested establishment of an autonomous Macedonian state in customs union with Austria-Hungary-91 Gorchakov in principle agreed to it, but it soon turned out that Russia could not accept it. In 1876-77 an Ambassadors' Conference of the great European states was held in Constantinople. It was expected to reach a diplomatic solution to the problems of the conquered nations within the Ottoman state and thus prevent further escalation of the crisis. The USA, which did not have any special interests in Macedonia, initiated an appropriate inquiry and solution to the Macedonian question. The American diplomacy in association with the American professors from the Robert College in Constantinople who were well-acquainted with the real situation, submitted to the Conference a proposition for the autonomy of Macedonia. However, the Conference failed due to the opposing interests of the great powers. Russia changed its policy on Macedonia and abandoned the plans for creation of a Macedonian state and started working in favour of a greater Bulgarian state instead. This happened after the secret negotiations on the Balkans among Austria-Hungary, Russia and Germany in April 1878 when Austro-Hungarian diplomacy renewed the question of the creation of an autonomous Macedonian state, i.e. Macedonian principality (with General Radich as its governor). On that occasion the Russian representative, General Ignatiev, did not oppose that solution, but in May 1878 Russian diplomacy refused to clarify its view on the question or support the Macedonian demands for an independent state submitted in Constantinople to General Ignatiev by Dimitar Robev, a Macedonian representative in the Ottoman Parliament. On July 13th, the International Treaty of Berlin (Art.23), gave Macedonia a special autonomous status. The government of the Ottoman state was assigned to regulate the status of Macedonia and the other provinces with a separate Statute. However, as there was no international control to observe the implementation of these resolutions or authorize sanctions for their non-implementation, the government in Constantinople did not fulfil its duties. The Macedonian uprising from 1878-79 and the actions of "Edinstvo" ("Unity"), the Transitional Government of Macedonia (formed secretly at the meeting of the National Assembly held from May 21st to June 2nd 1880) renewed interest in the Macedonian question in the diplomatic circles of the Great European Powers. The Transitional Government sent an Appeal to the great powers accompanied by a Protocol of the National Assembly for liberation of Macedonia and its constitution as an independent state. Furthermore, on March 23rd 1881, it issued a Manifesto which was distributed among the diplomatic representatives in the Ottoman Turkish state. Macedonia became an object of special interest in the relations between Russia, Austria-Hungary and Germany. The agreement on a secret alliance of the emperors of these three states signed in 1881 included a separate stipulation for the protection of Macedonia from a possible attack by Bulgaria. The beginning of the Ilinden uprising for national liberation of Macedonia in 1903, which the European diplomats called "The Macedonian revolution", marked the Macedonian question as an acute one for European diplomacy. The uprising and the creation of the so-called Krushevo Republic proved that the Macedonian people were ready to fight for their national freedom and the formation of their national state. At that time, the European powers were against the creation of a new state in the Balkans. European diplomacy had to intervene in order to calm the situation by proposing several projects for reforms among which were the Austro-Hungarian - Russian project known as the Murzsteg Reforms Programme and the British initiative that gave Macedonia a special status in its natural and ethnic borders. US diplomacy also became involved. The secretary of state and the USA president T.Roosevelt himself wrote to the British government acclaiming the British initiative for the autonomy of Macedonia. As regards the reforms in Macedonia, American diplomats in 1907 suggested strict control of their implementation by the mandatory powers. In the beginning of March 1908 the government of Great Britain launched an initiative for the introduction of more radical reforms in Macedonia. This initiative was readily accepted by Russia. The two state sovereigns (British and Russian) met in June 1908 in Reval (Tallinn) and adopted a new proposal for reforms as a preliminary phase towards full autonomy for Macedonia."' Nevertheless, this initiative did not take place due to the revolution of the Young Turks which declared and introduced a constitutional order and democratization of the Ottoman Turkish state. However, the rule of the Young Turks with its Greater Ottoman politics stopped the process of further democratization and of a peaceful democratic solution to the Macedonian question within the Turkish state for which there existed the necessary conditions. It only led towards further deterioration of the situation which was used by the neighbouring Balkan states to interfere in the internal affairs of the Turkish state and to manifest openly their expansionist intentions. Due to the worsening relations on the Balkans, in 1911 US diplomats undertook steps to influence the governments of the Balkan states to ease the tension and avoid the war they were preparing for, which could have led towards further involvement of the great powers in the solution of the eastern crisis. However, European diplomats showed no interest in preventing the military conflict on the Balkans. Moreover, they took part in its preparation governed by their original interests. At the time of the Balkan Wars when Macedonia was occupied and partitioned by the neighbouring Balkan states which was confirmed by the Treaty of Bucharest of August 10th 1913, European diplomacy had its own interest in accepting the partitioning as such. This could well have been predicted as the European powers, divided into two opposite blocks, started hasty preparations for the forthcoming Great War. Thus, the Macedonian question entered a new and extremely dangerous phase, not only for the future of the Macedonian nation, but for the peace on the Balkans and in Europe too. These fears soon came true with the beginning of the First World War. At the end of the war the Macedonian question became a crucial problem in the negotiations and the plans for the post-war organization of Balkan relations. The high military and political circles of the Entente powers and the US diplomats considered the creation of an independent Macedonian state, under the protectorate of one of the great non-involved powers (having primarily in mind the USA) as an unbiased, just and permanent solution to the problem. The final aim of this idea was the establishment of radically new relations on the Balkans which would ensure permanent stability in that neuralgic region. Such a solution was also presented at the secret negotiations for separate peace between the powers of the Entente on the one side and Bulgaria on the other under the observance of the USA. The interest in the Macedonian question was renewed yet again in the official diplomacy of the USA, with President W. Wilson's peace programme. In the official American interpretation of the "14 items'.', the USA declared that they would support an objective and unbiased investigation of the problem. An American expert group studied the Treaty of Bucharest of 1913 and concluded that it could not serve as a basis for a solution to the Balkan problems because that agreement was "an act of the corrupted Balkan bourgeoisies". At the beginning of the Paris Peace Conference, twenty- five renowned intellectuals from different European countries, Great Britain and the USA signed a Memorandum on the Macedonian question and sent it to the President of the USA. They demanded the formation of an autonomous Macedonian state in its natural and ethnic borders, which in the south would stretch from the Lake of Kostur to the Vardar estuary, thus leaving the towns of Ber and Negrita and the Halkidiki Peninsula to Greece. Furthermore, it was suggested that in the beginning the autonomous Macedonian state be under the protectorate of one of the great powers (the USA presumably). An unsigned Memorandum with identical contents was sent to Great Britain, too. The issue of the formation of a Macedonian state was the subject of an intense exchange of opinions and viewpoints among the members of the USA Peace Delegation, the American diplomatic representatives in the European states and the members of the American teams of experts. This was especially evident after the request of the Macedonians to be allowed a presence at the Paris Conference in order to present their demands. The member of the team of experts for Balkan questions C. Day informed A. Dulles in a letter about his numerous consultations with impartial experts on the Macedonian question who admitted the existence of problems arising from the issue, but were unanimously for the formation of an autonomous Macedonian state. The envoy of the American President, his personal friend and an expert on European relations, Professor George Herron urged President W. Wilson and the American Peace Delegation to put the Macedonian question on the agenda of the Peace Conference, supporting the integrity and independence of Macedonia. In a letter of May 26th to Colonel Haus, the leader of the American delegation and the most influential political figure after the President, Professor Herron wrote that the Macedonians were a separate nation, unified in their demands and wishes to form an independent state under the protectorate of the USA. Col. Haus himself supported "the cause of Macedonian freedom". Despite the favourable attitude of most of the USA representatives, the Macedonian question remained outside the agenda of the Peace Conference due to the categorical opposition of France and Great Britain who supported the aspirations of the Balkan Allies, Greece and Serbia (i.e. the Kingdom of the Serbs, Croats and Slovenians) to keep the occupied parts of Macedonia. At the Paris Peace Conference, when the peace terms were negotiated with the Balkan states, the Macedonian question was treated as a minority problem and discussed at the Committee for New States and the Protection of the Minorities. At its meeting on July 15th, 1919 the Italian delegation submitted a proposal for the autonomous status of Macedonia "within borders fixed by the Great Powers and their allies" with the highest possible degree of self-government, but within the borders of the the new Kingdom of SCS. The meeting of July 18th discussed the stipulations which were to be introduced at the peace negotiations with the Balkan states concerning the protection of minorities. These stipulations also included the Macedonian minorities in the Balkan states, referred to as "Macedonians". At the meeting of July 30th the Committee discussed the Italian proposal for the autonomy of Macedonia and the British proposal for the establishment of League of Nations control over Macedonia. As regards this, it was suggested that the League of Nations be authorized to send its representatives to Macedonia. The following meetings discussed the same proposals in a somewhat modified form. Due to the opposing views on the question, it remained open till the beginning of November 1919. The text of the Peace Agreement on minorities and the obligations of the government of the Kingdom of SCS for the protection of the rights of minorities were then finally formulated. On November, llth the Supreme Council accepted the proposed text of the document and obliged the government of the Kingdom of SCS to sign the agreement. The Committee for New States also prepared stipulations for protection of minorities in Greece where the Macedonian people were given minority status.' The Committee informed the Greek delegation about the draft-agreement for the protection of minorities and the stipulations included in it. The president of the Greek government and a leader of the peace delegation responded to this document issued by the Committee with a false statement that Greece had provided protection for the Albanian, Moslem and Slav minorities (the latter referred to as "the Slav communities in Macedonia") and claimed that Greece was ready to accept the agreement. According to this, the president of Greece recognized the existence of a Macedonian minority. The stipulations for the protection of minorities put Greece under an obligation to introduce minority languages in the state schools, but Venizelos resisted this and demanded reformulation of the decrees for the protection of minorities. At the meeting on September 18th the Supreme Council rejected all the Greek comments and on November 3rd ratified its agreement with Greece. Having imposed his plans for a reciprocal exchange of population between Greece and Bulgaria, the aim of which was only to conduct an ethnic cleansing of the occupied Aegean part of Macedonia with international approval, Venizelos presented himself as especially co-operative as regards the Agreement. Accepting his demands, the Committee for New States formed a separate Sub-Committee which prepared "special stipulations" for "voluntary emigration" of the citizens of these states during a period of four years after the effectuation of the Agreement. The Committee for New States only redefined this decree as an individual right for voluntary emigration, thus changing nothing essential in it. The suggestion of expanding these stipulations to refer to the Kingdom of SCS and Turkey was not accepted. The Committee prepared a separate convention for an exchange of citizens between Greece and Bulgaria on a voluntary basis. The Supreme Council approved of its text and obliged the Bulgarian delegation to sign it within 48 hours. The Bulgarian delegation signed the convention within the given period of notice. The stipulations for the protection of minorities which also referred to parts of the Macedonian people were not respected by the Balkan states. The Macedonian people was subjected to very severe de-nationalization and assimilation. Greece applied such means of violent pressure that it forced a great part of the Macedonian population to accept "voluntary" emigration.

Garrick
02-02-11, 23:04
hahaha
the mollosos




Alexanders Dogs, from the kingdom of his mother,
Garrick Alexander was surely not E
probably he was J2 as Dorians,
or maybe a kind of R his ancestors were all kings
now about E has to do mainly in West Greek Makedonia, the Aeolian E and that surely ally after 200 years of 1rst Makedonian
but also the myth of France royal family with G-Ydna that comes from Alexander can give a suspicius of G since Alexander left no sons and the 1 he left was slain,
then we must search to near by blood connections,
bones of Phillip (or Alexander 4rth have been found) and if a license from the museum a good reasearch can give more light

Iapetoc
I myself was convinced that Alexander the Great was J carrier.

But after this research of Pakistani and international scientists, brings me closer to the idea that he was a E carrier.

I would like to try to research and comment likelihood that Alexander the Great was the E haplogroup.

This research is likely canceled the idea that Alexander the Great was I2a2, which means that the Slav Macedonians can not usurp Alexander the Great.

And on the subject of the Albanians we will through long research and determined many important facts that will shed more light on the Albanian ancestry and origin, so I therefore would not bother on this topic, but I accepted the study of Pakistani and international scientists that illuminates situation and increases the likelihood that Alexander the Great was E carrier and Greek.

DejaVu
02-02-11, 23:38
Iapetoc

This research is likely canceled the idea that Alexander the Great was I2a2, which means that the Slav Macedonians can not usurp Alexander the Great.

And on the subject of the Albanians we will through long research and determined many important facts that will shed more light on the Albanian ancestry and origin, so I therefore would not bother on this topic, but I accepted the study of Pakistani and international scientists that illuminates situation and increases the likelihood that Alexander the Great was E carrier and Greek.

Garrick, again you are using a provocative statement without any evidence, because Macedonians are not Serbs.

Why should Macedonians be I2a2 only? You are a big nationalist and you clearly show it.

To find Haplogroup E in Alexander III Macedon (The Great) is your own vision and nobody cares what haplogroup he had, might be whatever.



Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Macedonia (FYROM)
I2a2 29,1%
I1 5,0%
R1a 15,2%
R1b 5,1%
E1b1b1 24,1%
J2 12,7%
G2a 5,1%

Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - of 79 Ethnic Macedonians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe



Kalash
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash
In a 2005 study of ASPM gene variants (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/ASPM_(Gene)), Mekel-Bobrov et al. found that the Kalash people of Pakistan have among the highest rate of the newly-evolved ASPM haplogroup D (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_D_(Y-DNA)), at 60% occurrence of the approximately 6,000-year-old allele.
The Kalash also have been shown to exhibit the exceedingly rare 19 allele value at autosomal marker D9S1120 at a frequency higher than the majority of other world populations which do have it.

Firasat et al. (2006) conclude that the Kalash lack typical Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_people) haplogroups (e.g. haplogroup 21),

On the other hand, a study by Qamar et al. (2002) found that even though "no support for a Greek origin of their Y chromosomes was found" in the Kalash, Greek y-chromosome (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Y-chromosome) admixture could be as high as 20% to 40%. Considering the apparent absence of haplogroup (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup) 21 in the local population, one of the possibilities suggested was because of genetic drift (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Genetic_drift). On the basis of Y chromosome allele (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Allele) frequency, some researchers describe the exact Greek contribution to Kalash as unclear.

Another study with Qasim Ayub, and S. Qasim Mehdi, and led by Quintana-Murci claims that "the western Eurasian presence in the Kalash population reaches a frequency of 100%, the most prevalent [mtDNA] haplogroup being U4, (pre-HV)1, U2e, and J2," and that they show "no detectable East or South Asian lineages. The outlying genetic position is seen in all analyses. Moreover, although this population is composed of western Eurasian lineages, the most prevalent ... are rare or absent in the surrounding populations and usually characterize populations from Eastern Europe, the middle East and the Caucasus... All these observations bear witness to the strong effects of genetic drift of the Kalash population... However, a western Eurasian origin for this population is likely, in view of their maternal lineages, which can ultimately be traced back to the Middle East".

The estimates by Qamar et al. of Greek admixture has been dismissed by Toomas Kivisild (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Toomas_Kivisild) et al. (2003): “some admixture models and programs that exist are not always adequate and realistic estimators of gene flow between populations ... this is particularly the case when markers are used that do not have enough restrictive power to determine the source populations ... or when there are more than two parental populations. In that case, a simplistic model using two parental populations would show a bias towards overestimating admixture”.

The study came to the conclusion that the Pakistani (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pakistan) Kalash population estimate by (Qamar et al. 2002) “is unrealistic and is likely also driven by the low marker resolution that pooled southern and western Asian–specific Y-chromosome haplogroup H (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)) together with European-specific haplogroup I, into an uninformative polyphyletic cluster 2”.

A study by Rosenberg et al. (2006) employing genetic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Genetics) testing among the Kalash population concluded that they are, in fact, a distinct (and perhaps aboriginal (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Indigenous_peoples)) population with only minor contributions from outside peoples. In one cluster analysis with (K = 7), the Kalash formed one cluster, the others being Africans, Europeans/Middle Easterners/South Asians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/South_Asians), East Asians, Melanesians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Melanesians), and Native Americans (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Indigenous_peoples_of_the_Americas).

A genetic study published led by Firasat (2007) on Kalash individuals found high and diverse frequencies of :Haplogroup (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup) L3a (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_L_(Y-DNA)) (22.7%), H1* (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_H_(Y-DNA)) (20.5%), R1a (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA)) (18.2%), G (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_G_(Y-DNA)) (18.2%), J2 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_J2_(Y-DNA)) (9.1%), R* (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA)) (6.8%), R1* (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_R1_(Y-DNA)) (2.3%), and L* (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_L_(Y-DNA)) (2.3%). Haplogroup L (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Haplogroup_L_(Y-DNA)) originates from prehistoric (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prehistoric) South Asia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/South_Asia).

In the recent study: "Worldwide Human Relationships Inferred from Genome-Wide Patterns of Variation (2008)", geneticists using more than 650,000 single nucleotide polymorphisms (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Single_nucleotide_polymorphism) (SNP) samples from the Human Genome Diversity Panel, found deep rooted lineages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lineage_(anthropology)) that could be distinguished in the Kalash. The results showed them not only to be distinct, but perfectly clustered within the Central (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Central_Asia)/South Asian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/South_Asian) populations at (K = 7). The study also showed the Kalash to be a separated group, with having no membership within European populations.

how yes no 2
02-02-11, 23:55
How yes no,
Here's the research of international and Pakistani scientists have found a Haplogroup E1b1b1 (formerly E3b1) in tribe of Pathans in Pakistan.

Although this is not ultimate proof that Alexander the Great was haplogroup E, if one of the elite soldier or his entourage was the E carrier indicates an increased likelihood that Alexander the Great was E carrier.

Although scientists speak of the Greeks, can be read on forums that the Albanians used this research to demonstrate the Illyrian/Albanian descent of Alexander the Great, as the E haplogroup in Europe is the most common percentage of Albanians Gega.

Sadaf Firasat1 et al

Y-chromosomal evidence for a limited Greek contribution to the Pathan population of Pakistan


Eur J Hum Genet., 2007 January


www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/pdf/ukmss-2934.pdf (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2588664/pdf/ukmss-2934.pdf)

this is politically motivated paper.... that should prove that ancient Macedonians were Greeks...those 3 nations do not claim origin from Greeks (as claimed in paper) but from armies of Alexander the Great which is much wider notion...

ancient Macedonians were almost certainly dominantly R1a people (as Greek Macedonia has it more than Slavic Macedonia, as in Slavic Macedonia it is equally spread in ethnic Macedonians and Albanians, and as R1a on Balkan is ancient old)

Greek Macedonia is R1a dominant area, and so are all 3 people who claim descend from ancient Macedonians......but they compare only E haplogroup and find 2.1% of E1b1b in Pathan, which could have arrived there in multitude other ways.... though it probably did arrive with armies of ancient Macedonians...

question is why do they check only E1b1b? because R1a has connotation of being Slavic marker... and E and J as being Greek markers..... another indicator worth checking is haplogroup G, and again it is present in all 3 groups....

proper research would go into deeper analysis of all haplogroups that are in common for those 3 people and Balkan, and look for details that distinguish those people from surroundings and are same as in Balkans......

Garrick
03-02-11, 00:04
Garrick, again you are using a provocative statement without any evidence, because Macedonians are not Serbs.

Why should Macedonians be I2a2 only? You are a big nationalist.

To find Haplogroup E in Alexander III Macedon (The Great) is your own vision and nobody cares what haplogroup he had, might be whatever. Let him rest in peace.

DejaVu
I have never ever mention Serbs or I think that Alexander the Great have nothing to do with the Serbs, and to understand what I meant.

If Alexander the Great was E haplogroup:

Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:

Greeks and

Albanians.


No No No Slav Macedonians, Serbs, do not know who.


You calling me a nationalist because I say that Alexander the Great was neither Slav Macedonian nor Serb???


Do you know that in Serbia does have a nationalists (but in Macedonia FYROM much much more), who think that Alexander the Great was a Serb or I2a2?

I just fight against the stupid nationalistic ideas!!!

I don't accept it.

I don't accept statues of Alexander the Great neither in Skopje nor in Belgrade.

DejaVu
03-02-11, 00:10
proper research would go into deeper analysis of all haplogroups that are in common for those 3 people and Balkan, and that distinguish those people from surroundings......

Agree.

Hope they find same haplogroup that is common in all balkan countries, so all nationalist can get a big surprise. Then maybe all will agree that all have mixed population from many historical people and nations.

how yes no 2
03-02-11, 00:16
If Alexander the Great was E haplogroup:

Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:

Greeks and

Albanians.


No No No Slav Macedonians, Serbs, do not know who.



stop with that propaganda like argument...
does 2.2% of I1 in some part of Russia proves that Hitler and Napoleon were I1?

Alexander Macedonian origins from family that has Greek origin (at least one of his ancestors claimed that in order to be allowed to participate in Olympic games)...

but origin of elite and origin of nations they rule over often differ...

equal spread of R1a among Macedonia Slavic and Albanian population and elevated spread in Greece Macedonia coupled with R1a in Balkan being ancient old is clear indication that ancient Macedonians were dominantly R1a people... expected additional haplogroups are G2a, J2b and only than E-V13...

of course, Alexander did in his army have also Thracians, Illyrians.... all people who are likely to have had some or much E-V13...

DejaVu
03-02-11, 00:18
"Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:"
"Greeks and Albanians."


WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE??????????????

You have provocative statements!!!!!!!!!!!!

Garrick
03-02-11, 00:19
this is politically motivated paper.... that should prove that ancient Macedonians were Greeks...those 3 nations do not claim origin from Greeks (as claimed in paper) but from armies of Alexander the Great which is much wider notion...

ancient Macedonians were almost certainly dominantly R1a people (as Greek Macedonia has it more than Slavic Macedonia, as in Slavic Macedonia it is equally spread in ethnic Macedonians and Albanians, and as R1a on Balkan is ancient old)

Greek Macedonia is R1a dominant area, and so are all 3 people who claim descend from ancient Macedonians......but they compare only E haplogroup and find 2.1% of E1b1b in Pathan, which could have arrived there in multitude other ways.... though it probably did arrive with armies of ancient Macedonians...

question is why do they check only E1b1b? because R1a has connotation of being Slavic marker... and E and J as being Greek markers...and authors are Greeks... another indicator worth checking is haplogroup G, and again it is present in all 3 groups....

proper research would go into deeper analysis of all haplogroups that are in common for those 3 people and Balkan, and look for details that distinguish those people from surroundings and are same as in Balkans......

how yes no
I'm not saying that your thinking is incorrect, perhaps it is properly.

But for that you are talking requires some scientific evidence, some proof.

No one says it is proven that Alexander the Great was the holder of E haplogroup.

However this research exists and this is closest to now the final result, if we follow the scientific approach that we are closed to the truth which differs from the current assumptions this means that we need to have some findings, some other results based on which we can discuss.

The result of Pakistani and international scientists has been widely quoted, and for now, until proven otherwise, the highest probability is that Alexander the Great was haplogroup E.

DejaVu
03-02-11, 00:36
The result of Pakistani and international scientists has been widely quoted, and for now, until proven otherwise, the highest probability is that Alexander the Great was haplogroup E.

Again you have no clue where Haplogroup E is.

Haplogroup E
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe

Albanians
25.5% (2008)

Bosnians
10,1% (2005)

Bulgarians
20.7% (2004)

Croats (mainland)
5,6% (2005)

Greeks
31.6% (2008), 20,8% (2007), 23,8% (2004)

Macedonians (FYROM)
18% (2010), 24,1% (2005)

Romanians
7,4% (2004)

Serbs
17,3% (2010), 21,2% (2005)

Slovenians
2,7% (2008), 7,1% (2000)


What makes Haplogroup E, Greek or Albanian? Maybe, because you are Albanian from Serbia.

how yes no 2
03-02-11, 00:40
Again you have no clue where Haplogroup E is.

Haplogroup E
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe

Albania
25.5% (2008)

Bulgaria
20.7% (2004)

Greece
31.6% (2008), 20,8% (2007), 23,8% (2004)

Macedonia (FYROM)
18% (2010), 24,1% (2005)

Serbia
17,3% (2010), 21,2% (2005)


What makes Haplogroup E, Greek or Albanian? Maybe , because you are albanian from Serbia.

Montenegro 27% > Albania 25.5%
while Montenegro has 5% Albanians

though in Ghegs haplogroup E is much more frequent than in Albania and Montenegro...
however this can be misleading as variance of haplogroup E in Kosovo is very little... much less than in Dalmatia...
big frequency coupled with small variation is indicator of extreme reproduction rate with most people in such group having common ancestor very close in time ....

Garrick
03-02-11, 00:47
"Today only two nations in the Balkans that can be called the origin of Alexander the Great:"
"Greeks and Albanians."


WHERE IS YOUR EVIDENCE??????????????

You have provocative statements!!!!!!!!!!!!

DejaVu
Do not know how you can not understand something that is obvious.

Of course, the whole story becomes dangerous to the idea that the Slav Macedonians are the same as the ancient Macedonians, it is clear, however, why elite FYROM Macedonia follows the stupid ideas that can lead to disaster.

And you know the Albanians; in the forums, newspapers, books, history, science has a lot of Albanians, who say that Alexander the Great was Albanian.

You know that the Albanians did not accept the Macedonian encyclopedia, partly because the chapter on ancient Macedonia, which the Albanians think that this is their history and not the Macedonian Slav.

And when they threatened protests over Macedonia, FYROM, encyclopedia is withdrawn.

Do not understand me wrong, I do not say that the Albanians are right, but they refer to various sources, and indeed some authors in the West to give them the right.

If by any chance to prove that Alexander the Great was the E haplogroup then you can only imagine how the Albanians to have wings.

Next best thing, they would argue that this is evidence that they are descendants of ancient Macedonians.

They will no longer be concerned only part of the western and northern Macedonia, where they have a majority, but they will see themselves as the successors to the whole of Macedonia.

I'm trying to say how stupid FYROM Macedonian propaganda can itself cause the mat, then a hopeless position.

Garrick
03-02-11, 00:58
Montenegro 27% > Albania 25.5%
while Montenegro has 5% Albanians

though in Ghegs haplogroup E is much more frequent than in Albania and Montenegro...

how yes no
The highest concentration of Haplogroup E-V13 in the world is among the Gege Albanians.

Albania,Gege, 41.21% (Ferri et al, 2010),

Kosovo 45.6% (Pericic et al).

And Gege Albanians make up almost the entire population of Albanians in Kosovo.


It is true that there are studies showing that in the Peloponnese E-V13 is 47% however Maciamo caught my attention, and he's right, it's a small sample.

DejaVu
03-02-11, 01:01
You clearly have big problems. Its not even your business what kind of haplogroups people have.
All should have a chance to be something and there is no problem over the matching with Albanians if it is the real proof, but they are not alone to have E-V13 "Hitler" is one who had it. What are you expecting, that all E-V13 people around the world will call themselfs Albanians or maybe Macedonians?

There are only one kind of original Macedonians the ethnic Macedonians, everything else is used for propaganda by the neighbours of Republic of Macedonia.

how yes no 2
03-02-11, 01:08
how yes no
The highest concentration of Haplogroup E-V13 in the world is among the Gege Albanians.

Albania,Gege, 41.21% (Ferri et al, 2010),

Kosovo 45,6% (Pericic et al).

And Gege Albanians make up almost the entire population of Albanians in Kosovo.


It is true that there are studies showing that in the Peloponnese E-V13 is 47% however Maciamo caught my attention, and he's right, it's a small sample.





yes, but it is not only frequency what matters most when it comes to ancient history, but also the variation....

Kosovo Albanians have almost no variation in their haplogroup E....which indicates rather recent common origin....

in 4 generations you can have
A has 10 kids, all his kids have 10 kids, all kids of his kids have 10 kids, and all their kids 10 kids... =>10000 people

B has 3 kids, his kids have 2 kids, his kids have 1 kid, their kids 2 kids
=> 12 people

now those two groups - one made of those 12 people and other of those 10000 people are probable to have same variation in YDNA haplogroup.... but 4 generations ago there were only person A and person B....

when we talk about ancient Macedonians of Alexander the Great we talk about 2330 years ago...
if you take that people had kids around their 20th year, that means around 116 generations since than

Kosovo Albanians have minimalistic variation of haplogroup E, hotspot of variation of haplogroup E is in Dalmatia.....

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/images/ejhg2008249f4.jpg
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

big variation of haplogroup E in Dalmatia can be about Illyrians, but it may as well be about some pre-Illyrian people... it's hard to say anything as haplogroup E is unexpectedly low in frequency on Adriatic islands...I can understand that mainland Dalmatia had depopulation and repopulation due to waves of invaders.... but Illyrians who lived on islands, why would they run away and where...islands were never really heavily invaded.......

it would be good if some ancient DNA could be analyzed... until than it is hard to claim anything on Illyrians...as they could have been E-V13 dominant, or J2b2 dominant, or R1b dominant or I2a2 dominant...

in any case big variation of E in Dalmatia indicates that haplogroup E might have entered Balkan via sea by landing in Dalmatia..... probably from hotspot of E variance in Asia minor...

iapetoc
03-02-11, 01:31
Before and with same road to Geneticks it is the Lingustic.

The Ancient Makedonian Dialect is Very well written by Royal Danish Academy,
also by
http://www.csad.ox.ac.uk/CSAD/Hesychius/Hansen.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Thurston_Peck

AND THE MOST ANCIENT LEXICON OF HESYCHIUS OF ALEXANDDRIA

which is Before every old Makedonian church and Before slavic invasions

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria

THE ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language


Now DejaVu none of these words are Slavic-Makedonians,

ACCEPT IT

THE ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN LANGUAGE is a Greek dialect


Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.

1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Vilaet of Thessalonica - 373.227 (Greeks) - 207.317 (Bulgarians)
Vilaet of Monastir - 261.283 (Greeks) - 178.412 (Bulgarians)
Santzak of Skopje - 13.452 (Greeks) - 172.735 (Bulgarians)

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims - 423.000
Greeks - 259.000
Bulgarians - 178.000
Serbs - 13.150
Others (Jews) - 73.000

Even IF I NAME THE BULGARIANS AND HALF OF THE TURKS AS SLAVIC-MAKEDONIANS,
THE EXISTANCE OF GREEK-MAKEDONIANS IS OBVIUS,
THESE GREEKS DID NOT WAKE UP SUDENLY IN 1904 AND MOVED TO MAKEDONIA
THEY EXISTED THERE 3000 YEARS,
SO THE RIGHT OF GREEK PEOPLE TO BE THEIR THEIR NATION IS STRONGER THAN YOUR CLAIMS ABOUT A TREATY
A TREATY IS STRONG OF THE PEOPLE ACCEPT IT,
WE DO NOT WANT OR ACCEPT THE TREATY OF BUCUREST 1913 AND WANT OUR OWN STATE,
IN THE LANDS THAT OUR FATHERS (ARGEIANS) LIVED AND ONLY THAT
BECAUSE FYROM IS ANOTHER ETHNICITIE,

Understand that
the MAKEDONIA YOU CLAIM IS MADE BY 3 NATIONS
GREEK-MAKEDONIAN
SLAVIC-MAKEDONIAN
ALBANIAN

WE HAVE AT 90 % THE LANDS OF OUR FATHERS THE ANCIENT MAKEDONIANS AND BELLOW 40% OF THE LAND YOU CLAIM
AS YUGOSLAVIA TODAY IS CUT TO ETHNICITIES
AS USSR IS CUT TO ETHNICITIES
AS INDIA IS CUT TO PAKISTAN-NEPAL_INDIA-BAGLADESH

YOUR MAKEDONIA EXISTED ON THE MAPS ONLY,
IN TREATIES AND PAPERS NOT IN THE HEART OF PEOPLE,
EVEN IF WE WERE OR ARE LESS THAN YOU, WE DONT WANT TO BE A MINORITY
SO KEEP YOUR MAJORITY AND YOUR STATE,
AND CLAIMING AND BULLSHIT,

THE I2a
THE E-V13
THE J2
IS DIFFERENT AMONG SLAVIC AND GREEK MAKEDONIANS
SO EVEN GENETICALLY WE ARE DIFFERENT,
OR WE COME FROM DIFFERENT NATIONALITIES

Have in mind that by claiming lands and ethnicitie you open your self to be claimed also

Look at Ossetia and Abkhazia
once they belong to Georgia,
today are 'independent' (?) and choose according their will
the south to Georgia the north 'independent' (Russian federate state)
if I am georgian I go south
If i am Ossetian I go north

the same Here,
If I am Greek-Makedonian I 'll go Greek Makedonia
If I am Slavic-Makedonian I 'll go to Fyrom

the problem is that Fyrom denies The Slavic and claims land And ethnicitie
Understand that,


Besides all the story here are mainly based in The KURGAN Hypothesis (hypothesis not thesis)
and not the opposite Greco-Aryan-Armenian

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graeco-Aryan

which leads us to Grassman's Law
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grassmann%27s_Law

cause if we take that thesis upon that law the whole Kurgan hypothesis is never happened
and the PIE language started at almost Armenia-Levant, and went to steppes, and returned from there,
That Hypothesis is also existing,
the propability that IE language went to steppes, and then returned back
is mentioned in all archaic civilizations,
Hebrew, Assyr, Greeks, Babylonians,
as also a new approach of Black sea and Propontis cataclysm

DejaVu
03-02-11, 01:32
Language is your connection? Again you are lost in your fantasy world but continue, that is your problem.

Garrick
03-02-11, 01:38
You clearly have big problems. Its not even your business what kind of haplogroups people have.
All should have a chance to be something and there is no problem over the matching with Albanians if it is the real proof, but they are not alone to have E-V13 "Hitler" is one who had it. What are you expecting, that all E-V13 people around the world will call themselfs Albanians or maybe Macedonians?

There are only one kind of original Macedonians the ethnic Macedonians, everything else is used for propaganda by the neighbours of Republic of Macedonia.

DejaVu
Type in the Google:

Alexander the Great Albanian

188 000 results!

Here's a small selection from the first page:

http://albhistory.netfirms.com/famousalbanians-alexander.html (http://albhistory.netfirms.com/famousalbanians-alexander.html)

Alexander the Great
There are few places where Alexander the Great's influence has not been felt. His vast empire spread from the Atlantic shores of Spain to the plains of India. His example has been admired and followed for generations to come, and his legacy has been deeply felt by the entire world. It is said that Julius Ceaser himself began to weep as he stood under the shadow of a statue of Alexander the Great, for Alexander had conquered half the world by 19, and Ceaser not even made a name for himself by that age.

And how was he Albanian in any way? Well, first of all Alexander was son of Philip II and Olympia. Olympia, was the princess of Epirus, a province in Northern Greece, considered to be modern day Albania, and an ancient territory of Albanian tribes. This relation of Alexander having Albanian blood is considered somewhat feasible and acceptable by the history books, but we want to stretch out the enigma of Alexander.

Initially there is the question of where and to what people Alexander belonged to. It is known that Alexander the Great, was really Alexander of Macedon, and the current flag of Macedonia is the ancient sun flag of Alexander's army. This seems reasonable, but what really were the "Macedon" people. As stated in the Compton's Interactive Encyclopedia, "the Slavs, occupied much of the area by the 6th century AD", so it cannot be possible for the now largely Slavic Macedonia to be a descendant from Alexander the Great. Slavic tribes did not come into the region of [B]Northern Greece until well after Alexander's death, which leaves only two people left, the Albanians and the Greeks. It is important tot note that the history books have not labeled Alexander Greek, and therefore he can only be Albanian. Albanian tribes are the earliest known to occupy northern Greece, and that allows Alexander only one nationality. Alexander did not have Albanian blood, he was an Albanian. To Albanians this fact seems very clear, for we have named our currency lek, after Leka I Madh.



http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080727204138AAgmRrj

How is alexander the great albanian?




www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CIwd (http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=00CIwd)

Alexander the Great is ALBANIAN




www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ebxHtuf-YI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ebxHtuf-YI)

George FINLAY Alexander the Great spoken Albanian

Etc...


Not to mention the sites in the Albanian language and other languages.

And now. Can you even imagine what would happen to disclose that Alexander the Great was the holder of E?

DejaVu
03-02-11, 01:39
What was like the ancient Macedonian language?

There are only a certain number of preserved words, and from the current knowledge the structure of the ancient Macedonian can not be fully synthesised. Most of the ancient Macedonian words are different to the ancient Greek language words, however there are a few that are similar. For the words from the ancient Macedonian language that are similar to the ancient Greek language words are believed to be taken on from Greek.19) In fact, this occurrence was and still is characteristic for all languages in the world. In the Macedonian language today terms are adopted from foreign languages mainly where there is no authentic terminology or analogy. For instance: antena (antenna); satelit (satellite); mobilen telefon (mobile/cellular phone); kompjuter (computer) etc. These foreign words are being adapted in accordance with the modern Macedonian phonetic system. This needs to be taken into account when analysing the ancient Macedonian language. The authenticity and the nature of a language can not be possibly determined only by the words that language adopted from another language.

One needs to bear in mind that almost all the preserved ancient Macedonian words reached modern age through their Greek transcript which makes it more difficult to identify their true meaning. It is important that the phenomenon "Interpretato Graeca" is mentioned here, that is greekifying of all the foreign words: nouns, verbs, and especially names. A specific characteristic of this process is adding the suffix "os" or "s" to the foreign words, and this will be discussed later in this paper.

Despite all this, it is very interesting to note that many of the authentic ancient Macedonian words, according to their etymology and pronunciation, have a striking resemblance to the appropriate words used in the modern Macedonian language (and other so called "Slav" languages).
For instance, the word "tshelniku" which translated in English means foremost is a very interesting case. The British historian Hammond mentioned its etymology and said that the word "tshelniku" in the ancient Macedonian language had a meaning of "leader of a group". Hammond says that this word was translated into Greek only in the 14th century as "phylarchos".20)
The word "tshelnik" with completely identical etymology and pronunciation has been registered in the so called "old Slavic language" in Macedonia as early as 11th century! Proof of this is the entry of Byzantine chronicle writer Kekavmen where he described the events surrounding the anti-Byzantine uprising of Petar Deljan in 11th century. He said that in the language of the rebels "the strategist is called tshelnik"!21) It is known that Kekavmen was fluent in the "language of the Slavs" in Macedonia therefore he could translate the Greek word "strategist" as "tshelnik" (the strategist was a high military rank in Byzantine). It is even more interesting that the word "tshelnik" with identical etymology and pronunciation is being used in todays' Macedonian language and in other "Slav" languages, as well! This can not be a coincidence, especially considering the fact that there could be hundreds of thousands etymological meanings that a single word can represent, and in this instance there is an identical etymological meaning for a word that has also an identical pronunciation.

The remark that the middle age Macedonians simply borrowed this word from the language of ancient Macedonians and used it in 11th century is not valid. Assuming that it is so, becomes impossible to explain the fact that this word is present in the contemporary Croatian literary language. Have they inherited this word from the ancient Macedonians as well? It is the same with the contemporary Serbian and Bulgarian literary languages where this word is also present with the same pronunciation and etymology.
It is highly likely that through analysis of the word "tshelniku" some other characteristics of the ancient Macedonian language could be identified, considering the fact that in the contemporary Macedonian language this word is deducted from the noun "tshelo" - forehead.
As mentioned previously, the non-Greek words were recorded by the ancient Greeks on as-heard basis without analysing the form of the word. Due to the fact the word "tshelniku" had been recorded inclusive of the vowel "u" at the end, it is anticipated that "tshelniku" was recorded by the ancient Greeks in its vocative form. The vocative form of the noun "tshelnik" in the contemporary Macedonian language is precisely "tshelniku". Is it maybe that the Greeks used to hear the word "tshelniku" every time a Macedonian addressed the leader, therefore recorded this word without realising that they were recording its vocative form?

Another word that is also very interesting in this regard is the word "phoinikos", which is related to the warfare22). Indubitable this word is very much alike the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" meaning "soldier". There could be a little doubt that these words have a common origin. Why is this so? In the ancient Greek language the consonant "v" did not exist23). The conclusion is imminent that the true pronunciation of the word "phoinikos" would be "voinikos" ("ph" replaced with "v"). In addition to this, as established earlier in this text, ancient Greeks added the suffix "os" to a lot of non-Greek words they recorded. If the word "phoinikos" had been subjected to the "Interpretato Graeca" phenomenon i.e. if the suffix "os" had been added to this non-Greek word, by taking out the Greek suffix we arrive at the contemporary Macedonian word "voinik" (soldier). Not only the pronunciation, but also the etymology of the word "voinik" is very similar to that of the word "phoinikos" and is located in the domain of warfare.

An abundance of water is described with the word "vodi" in contemporary Macedonian language. The corresponding ancient Macedonian word for this is the word "vedy". The Greek archaeologist Aliki Stuyanaki in the periodical "Edesaika Hronika" (Edessa, may-august, 1972) advised that the Macedonian city of Voden, to which the Greeks gave the name "Edessa", was originally a Brygian city and its old name was Vedy which means abundance of water24). Furthermore, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote that ancient Macedonians had a great respect towards the water (springs, wells, rivers) and they worshiped the Macedonian divinity they called Vedy25). In this instance as well, the similarity between pronunciation of a contemporary Macedonian and an ancient Macedonian word is undeniable, and again their etymology is identical.

The contemporary Macedonian verb "pesh" (walk) in ancient Macedonian would have been pronounced "pez"26).

"Pella"27) is another ancient Macedonian word. The etymology of this word is "a stone". The corresponding word in contemporary Macedonian language is "spila", which is similar in pronunciation with the ancient Macedonian word "pella".

The ancient Macedonian word recorded through its Greek interpretation as "skoidos" bears the meaning of judges. In contemporary Macedonian this meaning is conveyed using the word "sudii"28).


There are number of ancient Macedonian words with undetermined etymology which in their pronunciation undeniably resemble contemporary Macedonian words, as well as words from other so called "Slavic languages".


A very good example is the word "arotos" which ancient Macedonians used as an epithet to the god Heracles29). Its etymology is undetermined to-date, however if the suffix "s" is deleted this word is practically identical with the adjective "aroto" - "the old one" (archaism to a degree) from the present Macedonian language. According to a legend Heracles was considered to be the oldest ascendant of the Macedonians. Can the answer for the etymology of the word "arotos" be located in this legend, by referring to Heracles as "the old one" or "aroto(s)"?


It is inevitable that the Macedonian Phalanx is mentioned in this discussion. The strongest weapon of the phalanx was the long spear called "sarissa". It is very interesting to analyse the etymology of the word "sarissa". The first and obvious question is whether the first letter of this word, the letter "s", is authentic or perhaps there should be the letter "z" instead? It is well known that the name of the Brygian (ancient Macedonian) goddess was recorded as both "Semela" and "Zemela". If this is applied to the word "sarissa" i.e. the letter "s" is replaced with the letter "z" it will transform into the word "zarissa". An exciting assumption emerges regarding the etymology of this word. The reflexive verb in its dialectical form "zari se" in the contemporary Macedonian is identical in pronunciation with the word "zarisa" (thrust itself in, pierce itself into). This is of course an assumption, which nevertheless has a solid base in the information presented in relation to the pronunciation and etymology of the words discussed previously.

By analysing ancient Macedonian words that have a determined etymology, it is possible to make some assumptions and even draw some conclusions regarding certain grammatical forms of the ancient Macedonian language. This forms are identical with the forms of the contemporary Macedonian language.

It is worth to mention that there were words in the ancient Macedonian language that (at least without performing a deeper analysis) appear to have a little in common with the contemporary Macedonian language. However, the presence of these words does not deny the existence of words from the contemporary Macedonian language in the ancient Macedonian language. In fact, for some of these words it is more than obvious that they had existed in the ancient Macedonian vocabulary.
We should also turn attention to a portion of the ancient Macedonian onomastics. At the same time it is necessary to keep in mind two things. First, there is no doubt that the ancient Macedonians (mainly those from the highest circles) accepted part of the Hellenic onomastics. But in fact a large number of Macedonian names were different than those in the Hellenic onomasticon, while a considerable number of these are reminiscent of the later Macedonian onomasticon, or are derived from words of Macedonian or from so called "Slavic" (Venetic) origin.

A second thing that needs to be kept in mind is the fact that ancient Macedonian personal names up to our own time mainly achieved written form through their Greek (and in a smaller number Latin as well) transcription. We can surmise that a considerable number of these names were given the added Greek suffixes "os" and "s", and more rarely "us". There are a lot of proofs for this, but here for lack of space we shall only mention that, in our research we have noted over 350 personal names written by ancient Greek authors, which names belonged to various non-Greek peoples. The overwhelming number of these Persian, Thracian, Illyrian, Egyptian, Scythian, Brygian, Libyan, Indian, and other personal names (but also toponyms and other words) were artificially Hellenized by the old Greek authors, adding the Greek suffix "os", and where appropriate "s". Sometimes the old Greek authors went to such lengths that the foreign name was totally changed in the process. Thus, for example, the Egyptian Pharaoh Khu-fu in Greek sources became written as CheopS (with the attached Greek suffix "s"). Later the Indian King Chandragupta was written by Greeks as SandroticOS, and so forth. Sometimes the only change to the name would be the Greek ending "os" or "s". Thus, for example, the name of the Egyptian King Psamtic was written by Greeks as PsametihOS. The Macedonian name Ata, as well, became written as both Ata and AtaS (Hellenized by addition of the suffix "s"), etc.

We've said that we have identified hundreds of such examples of artificially Hellenized non-Greek names (but also other non-Greek words) by old Greek writers, which for lack of space here, will not be mentioned. According to such practices of that time it happened that peoples from quite disparate cultures, ethnic origins (and even races) such as the Persians, Egyptians, Illyrians, Arabians, Libyans, Thracians, Ethiopians, Scythians, Indians, Macedonians, and others, all had identical (Greek) endings on their names. This is so unlikely as to be unbelievable. Therefore, in the following discussion particular attention will be paid to the roots of personal names, given the extensive artificial use of the Greek suffixes "os" and "s" (as well as "us").

Garrick
03-02-11, 01:44
DejaVu
You can see that
the Albanians are widely proclaimed that the ancient Macedonian was Albanian language.

DejaVu
03-02-11, 01:46
Tell that to iapetoc and discuss it with him.

how yes no 2
03-02-11, 02:01
DejaVu
You can see that
the Albanians are widely proclaimed that the ancient Macedonian was Albanian language.

Albanians are in their national Romanticism phase... so they see themselves as = ancient Illyrians, Dardanians, Thracians, Macedonians, even as original Greeks....
it is fascinating how devoted they are to spreading their state and ideas of their right on lands of Balkan...

what can I say...hopefully they will calm down from that romanticism and focus on improving cooperation with neighbors... same goes for other Balkan nations...it would be nice if the Balkan region has long period of peace that will allow it to further develop economically and culturally...

DejaVu
03-02-11, 02:02
What was like the ancient Macedonian language? (continued)


In the ancient Macedonian onomasticon we will include several Brygian names (most of them found in Macedonia) as well. This is for the simple reason that Brygians played a major role in the ethnogenesis of the ancient Macedonians 30). But to pass on to concrete instances. We will mention a portion of the ancient Macedonian names which are the same or very similar to later Macedonian names or words, as well as names and words of the other so called "Slavic languages". Most of these names are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon 31) .

Ata(s). The root of this name contains the noun "at", which in the so called "Old Slavic language" meant "a horse". We note that the ancient Macedonians were great horsemen and horses were very importaint for them. Such names allready exsists in onomasticons of other peoples (for example Bulgarians have their popular name Asparuh, which means "speed horse" in Old Bulgarian language). The same name "Ata" is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Apell(es). The root of this name contains the noun "apel" (a call) which we have in the present day Macedonian language.
Atarhi(as). The root of this name contains the noun "atar". This is a Macedonian archaism for the word "love". Names that contain the word "love" exist in a majority of lexicons.

Bere(s). The root of this name contains the verb "bere" (to pick up) that exists today in the Macedonian language and in other "Slavic" languages. Also in the present day Macedonian onomasticon there are names derived from verbs. The name "Bere" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Crater(us)32). The root of this name contains the word "krater" (crater) which exsists in the present day Macedonian and other "Slavic" languages. In todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name "Krate".

Caran(us)33). This name might be connected to the present day Macedonian noun "kruna" (a crown). The name "Karanche" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Dada. The noun "dada" in the present day Macedonian language means "older sister". The name "Dada" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Daron. This is a name for the ancient Macedonian god of healing. Its etymology is known, and it means "he that gives health." This means that the name of this god contains the Macedonian noun "dar" (a gift). The names Darun, Dare, Dara and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Del(us). The verb "dela" (to work) exists in the so called "Old Slavic language", as well as in several present day "Slavic languages". The name "Dele" is present In todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Dimno(s). The adjective "dimno" exists in the present day Macedonian language and still means "steamy The names Dimna, Dimon, Dimnak and others are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Diplai(os)34). A name of an upper Macedonian (Payonian) ruler. In his name is the noun "dipla" that in dialectal form in the present day Macedonian language means a bouquet of flowers. The noun "dipla" is also used as a designation for a type of old Macedonian instrument.

Dita. The noun exists in Slavic languages as "dite" or "dete", which means "a child". In 19th century Macedonian onomasticon was recordered the same name "Dita".

Dita(s). This is an obvious form of the preceding name Dita, but it has been Hellenized with the suffix "s".

Dud(es). The noun "dud" (a type of wood) exists in several "Slavic" languages. The names Dude and Duda are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Glaukia(s)35). Could this name be derived from the noun "glava" (a head)? In 19th century Macedonia one finds the male name Glavko.36)

Gauan(us). This is an old originally ancient Macedonian name, first mentioned by Herodotus. It has obvious similarities to the noun "gaval", that represents an archaism for the "kaval" (a short Macedonian wind instrument). In 15th century Macedonia one finds the male names: Gavale and Gavala.

Kopria. This name has possible connections to the noun "kopra" (a dill). It is a well-known practice to derive personal names from those of the plant world. In 16th century Macedonia one finds the female name Kopra.

Lasten. This name may be connected to the noun "lastovica" (in Serbian: "lasta"), which means "a swallow". The name Laste is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon.

Lyka. This female Macedonian name, which exists in the present day language, is possibly derived from the noun "lika" (a face, pretty face). The name Lika is present in today's Macedonian onomasticon.

Milo. This name was mentioned by Plutarch as a name of a Macedonian military leader in the Macedonian-Roman conflicts. This name exists to the present day in the Macedonian onomasticon. It has an obvious identification with the present day Macedonian adjective "milo" (dear), from which a number of names are (Milosh, Milko, Milka).

Mesti(us). The root of this name contains the noun (archaism) "mesti" (small childrens' shoes made from wool). In later Macedonian onomasticon there were also names derived from pieces of clothes.

Mamina. This name fully corresponds to the present day Macedonian adjective "mamina" (the one who belongs to her mother). In 18th and 19th century Macedonia one finds the female name Maminka.

Mama. This is identical to the present day Macedonian noun "mama", which in any case, exists in other languages. In 15th century Macedonia one finds the female name Mamica (deminutive for Mama).

Mama(s). It is obvious that this is a Hellenized variant on the previous name.
Manta. The noun "mantija", that exists in the present day Macedonian language represents a type of long garment. In 19th century Macedonia one finds the same female name Manta.

Mantyes. This is probably a variant of the previous name. The spoken form of this word (without the suffix "s") is still closer to the noun "mantija".

Med(es). The root of this name contains the noun "med" (honey), which exists in todays' Macedonian language as well in most other "Slavic" languages. The name Mede is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Myrcin(us). Name of a king of an ancient Macedonian tribe Edoni, mentioned by Herodotus. If we remove the Greek "us", we get the name Myrcin (Mirkin). To the present day in the Macedonian language there is the female name "Mirka" (derived from the noun "mir", which means peace), while "Mirkin" is an adjective which means "The one who belongs to Mirka". Among the Macedonians, right up to the 20th century, men frequently received names derived from their mother's name (Kanin son of Kana; Mirkin son of Mirka and etc.). Could that be the case with this name? The names Mirkan, Mirin and so on are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Mucati. The verb "mucati" exists in a number of the "Slavic" languages. In the Macedonian language the verb "mucna" means "to speak". Maybe this name can be connected to the noun "mucka" (snout). If we read "c" as "k", then maybe the root of this name can be connected to the noun "mukach" (which means a cry baby). The names Mucan Muce, Mucko, Mukan, Muko are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Nana. The noun "nana" in the Macedonian language today is used to signify an older female relative. In dialectal form "nana" takes the form of the verb, to sleep. The name Nana is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Pita. The noun "pita" (a type of food), can be found in a number of "Slavic" languages. In todays' Macedonian onomasticon is present the name Pito. There are other Macedonian names derived from the food: Piroshka, Pituluca and others.

Pittak(os). Could this be a variant of the previous name? The noun "pitach" exists in the present day Macedonian language, with the meaning, "one who begs". The names Pito and Pitako are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Plator. The noun "plat" exists in the present day Macedonian language as a type of high quality cloth. The suffix "or" is encountered in other male personal names, which means that it is independent of the root "plat". The name Platin is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Pyri(as).The root of this name could be connected to the noun "pir" (merriment). The name Piri is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Pyrh(os). This is probably a variant of the previous name.

Perustae. The noun "perustija" in the present day Macedonian language means an iron spit for cooking meat over a fire, an item that had great significance in the preparation of food in the past. The name Peruska is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Rumi37). A female name that could possibly be connected to the adjective "rumena" (ripe red). In todays' Macedonian onomasticon there is name "Rumi", which is short form of the name "Rumena" (ripe red).

Sita. A name that is identical to the present day Macedonian adjective "sita" (eating to satisfaction). The male name Sitko is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Sopol(is).This ancient Macedonian name is mentioned by the Greek historian Arrian as the name of a Macedonian officer in the army of Alexander the Great. It obviously contains the root "sopol" (a strong spring) from the so called "Old Slavic language". The name Sopol is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Stasanor. This name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "stasan" (ripe). We've said that the suffix "or" can be found in other male names, which means that it is outside of the root "stasan". The names Stasin, Stase and Staso are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Silen(us). Name of a forest demon in Brygian mythology. The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "silen" (that which has spiritual or physical strength). In middle age Macedonia one finds the names: Silan, Silano and Silane.

Stamen(os)38). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "stamen" (reliable, firm). The name Stamen is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Sever(os). The root of this word contains the noun "sever" (north), which exists in in a number of present day "Slavic" languages. The name Sever is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Sipa. In the Macedonian language there exists the noun "sipa" (a type of fish), which lives in Macedonian lake waters. It is a well known practice to derive personal names from the names of animals. The name Sipe is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Sipa(s). This is obviously a Hellenized variant of the previous name.

Scritia39). The adjective "skrita" (secret) is apparent in this name that exists in "Slavic" languages.

Tata, Tato, Tataia. These are obvious variations of a name derived from the noun "tato" i "tata", which means "a father" and can be found in several "Slavic" languages. The name "Tataia" probably is a variant on these two names. In middle age Macedonia one find the names: Tato, Tate, Tatko, Tatka, Tatin.

Temen(os). The root of this name contains the present day Macedonian adjective "temen" (dark).

Traizina. The root of this word may contain the present day Macedonian adjective "trazena" (expected, sought).

Tip(as). The root of this name contains the noun "tip" (type), which is a word found in several Slavic languages. The names Tipa and Tipe are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Vitel(is). The root of this name contains the noun "vitel", which is found in the present day Macedonian and still means (whirlpool). The name Vitol is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Zaika. This is one of the most interesting ancient Macedonian female names. It may represent a female form of the present day Macedonian "zajak" (rabbit). In any case, there are numerous examples of names taken from names of animals. The names Zaia (Zaja) and Zaiko (Zajko) are present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.

Zaimina. The present day Macedonian language contains the adjective "zemjina" (in dialectal form "zemina") which means "the one who belongs to Earth". There is also the adjective "zimna" (the one who belongs to the winter"). The name Zemko is present in todays' Macedonian onomasticon.
We would also add to this list the name of the well-known Brygian goddess Zemela, who was goddess of the earth. There is an obvious similarity to the Macedonian noun "zemja" (in dialectal form: "zemla"), which is similar in other "Slavic" languages.
We would also mention the name of a Brygian tribe, the "Mushki", who lived in the 9th century before Christ. Their name is identical to the noun "mushki" (men), which exists in other "Slavic" languages. Their king was called Mita a name which remains unchanged in a number of "Slavic" languages.

There are other personal names of ancient Macedonians which in their spoken form have associations with present day Macedonian words, but only some of the more obvious examples have been mentioned.

DejaVu
03-02-11, 02:20
Albanians are in their national Romanticism phase... so they see themselves as = ancient Illyrians, Dardanians, Thracians, Macedonians, even as original Greeks....
it is fascinating how devoted they are to spreading their state and ideas of their right on lands of Balkan...

what can I say...hopefully they will calm down from that romanticism and focus on improving cooperation with neighbors... same goes for other Balkan nations...it would be nice if the Balkan region has long period of peace that will allow it to further develop economically and culturally...

Kosovo is impossible to solve but the other balkan countries got no problem (only FYRO Macedonia with Greece about the name issue and identity).

Garrick
03-02-11, 02:24
What was like the ancient Macedonian language?



All of these words you referring are the Serbian.

"tshelnik" = čelnik = "leader of a group"
"tshelo" = čelo = "forehead"
"voinik" = vojnik = "soldier"
"vodi" "voden" = voden = "abudance of water"
"spila" = špilja = "hole in the stone"
"sudii" = sudija = "judge"
"zari se" = zari se = "thrust itself in"

etc.


You say that Ancient Macedonian was Serbian, so do you know how much you give wings Serbian nacionalists when it read.


And Serbian is very very similar to Croatian and Bosnian.

Therefore:

Bosnians can say that the ancient Macedonian actually Bosnian.

Croats can say that the ancient Macedonian is Croatian.

etc.

DejaVu
03-02-11, 02:24
There is plenty of ancient, middle age and modern age narrative evidence concerning the analogy between the culture of the ancient Macedonians and the culture of the Veneti (ancestors of the "Slavs").


The Latin historian Quintus Curtius Rufus in his biography of Alexander The Great wrote that the Veneti from Asia Minor region of Paphlagonia took part in the army of Alexander The Great. Quintus Curtius Rufus mentioned an interesting piece of information. He wrote that Philotas, a Macedonian who was a naturilised Hellen, teased his fellow Macedonians by calling them "Phrygians or Paphlagians"40). He also wrote that the Macedonians were unhappy about this and complained to Alexander The Great. Two very important points to note here: Philotas equated the terms Phrygians and Paphlagonians. It is well known that the Phrygians (in the Balkans were known as Brygians) became the constitutional ethno-cultural core of the ancient Macedonians, whereas the term Paphlagonians represents a geographic name for Veneti, i.e. for the ancestors of the "Slavs". What this means actually is that Philotas equated the ancient Macedonians and the Veneti, and this happened before IV BC.
Even earlier than this, Herodotus wrote that Phrygians (ancient Macedonians) and Paphlagonians (ancestors of the "Slavs") wore very similar clothes 41).

There is narrative evidence regarding the analogy between the "Slav" and ancient Macedonian culture from a later period as well. The Byzantine historian and writer Nichephore Gregoras during his visit to the Macedonian town of Strumica in 1326, recorded that there he heard a large number of Macedonian folk songs. He affirms that, although he did not understand the language of the local population, the folk songs from Strumica definitely resembled - the Phrygian folk songs!42)
Also in the later periods a lot of foreign and Macedonian activists declared that the "Slavs" were the same people as the ancient Macedonians!
Mauro Orbini, in his book "The Kingdom of the Slavs" (1601), wrote about the presence of the "Slavs" during the period of Alexander The Great, even as a part of his army. In this book, Orbini published a document, which represents a Charter, that was sent to the "Slavs" by Alexander The Great as a gesture of gratitude for taking part in Alexander's battles 43). It is important to note that Alexander's biographer Quintus Curtius Rufus also wrote that the Veneti were a part of the Macedonian army.

The renowned Croatian historian from XVI century Vinko Pribichevich, in his book "About the Origin and the Adventures of Slavs" (Venice, 1532) asserts that ancient Macedonians are "Slavs". Middle-age Croatian reformists H. Lucich, D. Zatarich, I. Gundulich, J. Palmotich and others, also shared this belief and they all considered Alexander The Great a Slav. Matijan Alberti of Split (1561-1623) also supported this theory.

Ancient Macedonians were considered to be "Slavs" (Veneti) by a number of poets from Dubrovnik, and also a number of Russian historians: Butkov, Saveljev, Rostislavich and Chertkov, as well as archimandrites Leonid and Filrot. Mickevich from the Chair at the French College in Paris, in 1844 declared that the "Slavs are the oldest nation in Europe"44).

The German scholar Kuno, as well as the scholars Lelev and Bjeloski, put forward their assertion that not only the Hellenes but also the "Slavs" always lived on the Balkan peninsula, together with the Hellenes. The same was maintained by the highly distinguished Pavle J. Shafranich (who published a few books on this subject), as well as the Russian consul in Bitola, Hitrov. This theory was represented by some Serbian activists at the time 45).

Renown Croatian folklorist from Bosnia Stefan Verkovich during his extended visit to Macedonia in the 19th century recorded a large number of Macedonian folklore deeds and in his letter to the newspaper "Dragoljub" in Zagreb published in 1868 wrote: "The Slavs, and not the Greeks, are the forefathers of the civilisation"46).
In his work "Veda Slovena" (1874) Verkovich wrote:"Our Slavs had a lively tradition even in the times of Alexander The Great".

Bulgarian writer Stefan Zahariev claimed that the "Slavs" are the oldest inhabitants of the Balkans and their literacy dates prior to the brothers St. Cyril and St. Methodius47).

In an Albanian history book from the 19th century has been stated that the Macedonians are the indigenous people of the Balkans and that Alexander The Great was a "famous Macedonian-Slav tzar". These views were shared by renown Macedonian intelectuals from the 19th century: Isaija Mazhovski, Gjorgji Pulevski, Nikola D. Chuparov and others, who believed that the ancient Macedonians and the "Slavs" are in fact the same people48).

Although the official Macedonian historiography (especially during the totalitarian regime in the period after the World War II until its indepence) mainly considered such articulations as national-romanticism, the future research will show whether there is any truth to the above claims.

DejaVu
03-02-11, 02:26
All of these words you referring are the Serbian.

"tshelnik" = čelnik = "leader of a group"
"tshelo" = čelo = "forehead"
"voinik" = vojnik = "soldier"
"vodi" "voden" = voden = "abudance of water"
"spila" = špilja = "hole in the stone"
"sudii" = sudija = "judge"
"zari se" = zari se = "thrust itself in"

etc.


You say that Ancient Macedonian was Serbian, so do you know how much you give wings Serbian nacionalists when it read.


And Serbian is very very similar to Croatian and Bosnian.

Therefore:

Bosnians can say that the ancient Macedonian actually Bosnian.

Croats can say that the ancient Macedonian is Croatian.

etc.

Thats why its important to do a research before claiming anything.

Garrick
03-02-11, 02:37
Kosovo is impossible to solve but the other balkan countries got no problem (only FYRO Macedonia with Greece about the name issue and identity).

A lot wrong.

Albanians are now 25 to 30% of FYROM Macedonia population.

Studies show that the Albanian population in Macedonia increases much faster than the Macedonian.

For approximately thirty to thirty five years will almost equal the Albanian and Macedonian populations in Macedonia FYROM, and certainly then, Albanians and Turks together will surpass the Slavo Macedonians.

Initiate that Slavo Macedonians are the same as the ancient Macedonians just going into the hands of Albanians, and so now widely proclaimed that Alexander the Great is Albanian and that they are descendants of ancient Macedonians, and
can you imagine that someone will discover that the new proof which connect Ancient Macedonians and Albanians, what would happen?

No, you can not even imagine.

Actually today is run from the truth, FYROM Macedonians must a lot more work with the Albanians, but less with the Greeks.

DejaVu
03-02-11, 02:44
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burushaski
The Burushaski or Burushko language (Urdu (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Urdu): بروشسکی burū́šaskī), is a language isolate (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Language_isolate) (that is, not known to be related to any other language of the world). It is spoken by some 87,000 (as of 2000) Burusho (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Burusho) people in the Hunza (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hunza_Valley), Nagar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Nagar_Valley), Yasin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Yasin_Valley), and Ishkoman (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ishkoman) valleys and some parts of the Gilgit (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Gilgit_Valley) valley in the Northern Areas (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Northern_Areas) in Pakistan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pakistan) and by about 300 Burusho (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Burusho) people in Srinagar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Srinagar), India (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/India).Other names for the language are Brugaski, Kanjut (Kunjoot), Verchikwār, Boorishki, Brushas (Brushias), and Miśa:ski.

Today Burushaski contains numerous loanwords (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Loanword) from Urdu (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Urdu) (including English (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/English_language) and Sanskrit (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sanskrit_language) words received via Urdu), and from neighbouring Dardic languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dardic_languages) such as Khowar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Khowar_language) and Shina (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Shina_language), as well as a few from Turkic languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkic_languages) and from the neighboring Sino-Tibetan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sino-Tibetan_languages) language Balti (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Balti_language), but the original vocabulary remains largely intact. The Dardic languages also contain large numbers of loanwords from Burushaski.
There are three divergent dialects, named after the main valleys: Hunza (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hunza_Valley), Nagar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Nagar_Valley), and Yasin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Yasin_Valley) (also called Werchikwār). The dialect of Yasin is thought to be the least affected by contact with neighboring languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Language_contact) and is generally less similar to the other two than those are to each other; nevertheless all three dialects are mutually intelligible (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mutually_intelligible).



Ilija Chashule "Basic Burushaski Etymologies"(Muenchen Newcastle , ISBN 3 89586 0891) with the similarities between the modern Macedonian and Burushaski language:

abstract

BU:
ASHMILAS, ASHMILJ = to pacify, placade, persuade, also MILI as a title for the beloved in folk song.
PRO-SLAV:
mil`= dear,
LYTV: mylas and meilus = dear.
MK:
MIL =dear, Smiluva, Smili = to pacify.

BU:
ASPALAS, ASPALJ = to kindle, light
PROSlAV:
Paliti = to burn, to set in flames.
MK:
SPALE,ZAPALE = to burn, to set in flames.

BU:
ASH = neck, nape of neck, external trhoat.The locativ of the ASH is ASHI
PSlav, MK:
Shija = neck.It is also related to the word SHITI = to sew

The BURushaski word in its special locative form both semantically and phonetically parallels Slavic.


BU:
BALKAS( IN LOCATIV: BILKIS) = treasure
SOUTH SLAV: BLAGO = treasure
MK NAME: BLAGA = treasure.

BU:
BERKAT = Berg, Mountain.
MK: BREG= Berg, Mountain.
PROSLAV:
BERG´ = berg, Mountain

BU:
BIRI= boiling
MK: VRIE = boiling...as so many times mentioned, B and V are changed many times, Servia=Serbia.

BU:
BÚR = a single hair.
ANC MK :
ABROUWES = eye brows
PRO SLAV, Old SLAV:
BRY, (GENETIV: BR'EVE) = eye brow.

BU:
D*- ASPASAS, D*-SPASASH = to protect, save, rescue.
MK:
SPASE = save,
DA SPASESH = to save someone.

BU:
DELAS, DELIAS, DELJ = 1)to beat, strike, smite, hit, shoot,...2) to kill to slay
SANSKRIT:
DALATI = crack, splits
PRO SLAV:
DELATI = to work.
MK:
DELIA = Mythical Hero who kills the Turks.

GARU( ALSO: GARÚKI) = spring

ALSO: GARÚM = hot GARÚRUM = hot, warm, AS NOUN: GARÚRUMKUSH = heat.

GARI = lamp, light , pupil of eye.

ANC MK:
GORPIAIOS = a hot Macedonian Month
MK:
GREE = warm, to warm
GARE= warming meal, cook soup.

BU:
GIRATAS; GIRASH = to dance, play
OLD SLAV, MK:
IGRA = dance, play
MK:
IGRASH = you play, nominative form from IGRA.


ENGLISH / BURUSHI / MACEDONIAN
HAND / SHAKA / SHAKA
Arm / RAKA / RAKA
Thunder / GROM / GROM
Raining / VRNE / VRNE
Looking / GLEDA / GLEDA
sit(down) / SEDI / SEDI
Drink / PIE / PIE
Beautiful /UBAVA / UBAVA

DejaVu
03-02-11, 03:07
A lot wrong.

Albanians are now 25 to 30% of FYROM Macedonia population.

Studies show that the Albanian population in Macedonia increases much faster than the Macedonian.

For approximately thirty to thirty five years will almost equal the Albanian and Macedonian populations in Macedonia FYROM, and certainly then, Albanians and Turks together will surpass the Slavo Macedonians.

Initiate that Slavo Macedonians are the same as the ancient Macedonians just going into the hands of Albanians, and so now widely proclaimed that Alexander the Great is Albanian and that they are descendants of ancient Macedonians, and
can you imagine that someone will discover that the new proof which connect Ancient Macedonians and Albanians, what would happen?

No, you can not even imagine.

Actually today is run from the truth, FYROM Macedonians must a lot more work with the Albanians, but less with the Greeks.

No comment.

Sorry, but I havent seen so much ugly people as Albanians, take it as a comment Shqiptari.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-zEWFSPUCU - "see for yourself - albanian faces"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggt2sy_-Ao - Albanians are actually Arabs (German documentary)

DejaVu
03-02-11, 03:22
If the stealing of identity will continue then it will be the same for all and continue all the time and nobody will know who is who. Thats why its important to make no importance of identity or belonging. All can be European in EU and no more identities are needed (self-determination will continue to exist, but will not be needed to claim anything, there will be nothing to claim).

Michael Folkesson
03-02-11, 03:49
Bears. Beets. Battlestar Galactica.

iapetoc
03-02-11, 04:14
Oh GoD
Pella comes From Greek Pellos (mount Pelion)
Alexander him self says DEDIOKETAI TOIS PELLASIN Δεδιωκεται τοις Πελλασιν in India
Pella means old-strong-wise

Now phoinikos is phoenikos means killer the one who learned to kill
today is phoneas (man) phonikos (weapon)

tshelnikue
Even today the captain of a floak of goats or sheeps is named Tseligas in Greek
Tseligkas is the leader of the Tsopans and also the leader of the family-clan
Comes from the ancient Greek Zeu-Lynx means the Holy wild-cat (Lynx) that quards the tsopans not to steel, he is the judge and the policeman of the breeders,

Edessa
Water in Greek Ydor -Idor in Makedonian Vydros Vidros in Vrygian bedu -edu
that is why the Edessa means Tower in the water in Ancient Thracian-Phrygian
Βέδυ is linguistically connected to the Greek words "hydor" Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): ύδωρ , "water", "bidra" Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): βίδρα, Otter, "idros" Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): ίδρως, sweat and "idrosa"Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): ίδρωσα, sweated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa,_Greece
As you see The Makedonians Have Edessa not Vodenna

Pesh -Pat
The Ancient Greek word-verb for walk Is Paet-o ->Pat-o
walk around per-pat-o
That is Ariannos says Alexandros E-pat-axe-n aftis (Αλεξανδρος επαταξε αυτοις)
Means walk among them with weapon,

sarissa HAHAHAHAHA :laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

aris-(s)a nominative
aridos possessive
aridι dative
arissa accusative
soldiers hold την αρισσα (thalassa etc)

arissa means drill weapon or tool
but also today in Greek
Sarothron a wipping tool with long wooden Stick
Sarakion a worm of wood
Arida long stick, also the feet of a tall man
Σαρωνω Sarono means I absolute win, sweep enemies (find out why)


DEJAVU COPY PASTE

STILL BULLSHIT TO SPAM

if SLAVIC is Mirca
in Greek IS MYRSINA or MYRSINA

any words you write is Greek or IE
spilja in Greek
is Andron (the habited cave)
Spilia Σπηλια the non habited cave, the calcium carst phenomena
is Pillon (the cave of a clay or calcium rock)
ΕΙΣ ΠΗΛΟΝ

iapetoc
03-02-11, 04:27
MAN STOP F****** LANGUAGES :useless::useless::useless::useless::useless::usel ess::useless:

GLAUKA MEANS OWL
cause her eyes are Glau (glaf)
besides Glaukoma means something to you

you are a lunatic
a fanatic Blind

where did you find that meanings
in a cheap book of a stupid
Learn ancient Greek first and then you realize what means

All you say has a different meaning In Greek And MAkedonian,
What did you do?
you take 1-2-3 words and change meanings
well then a text has no meaning
ARE YOU NUTS
ALL THE WORLDS YOU MENTIONED HAVE ALSO A GREEK OR A IE OR ANOTHER MEANING


I GAVE YOU THAT
THE MOST AnCIENT LEXICON OF ANCIENT MAKEDONIAN
IS THERE ANY SLAVIC WORD?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language

Elias2
03-02-11, 04:38
Dejavu is a professional propagandist! lol

Vardarska for the Vardarskans!

iapetoc
03-02-11, 04:48
ENGLISH / BURUSHI / MACEDONIAN


BU:
ASPALAS, ASPALJ = to kindle, light
PROSlAV:
Paliti = to burn, to set in flames.

AS YOU SAY PROSLAV

now stay In Slavic fake Makedonian
With your Original SERBIAN AND BULGARIAN KINGS

YOUR DREAM TO BE A MAKEDONIAN WILL NEVER COME TRUE

cause if you choose to a slavic (it is a priviledge)
then you Deny your Ancient Makedonian ROOT
IF YOU CHOOSE TO BE a Makedonian (another priviledge)
then you deny your slavic roots

ACCEPT IT AND CHOOSE
WE WILL ALWAYS BE HERE TO REMIND YOU YOUR HOAX

The Greeks
the Serbs
The Bulgarians
The Albanians
THE SCIENTISTS ALL OVER THE WORLD
THE ANCIENT SCIENTISTS
EVEN THE STONES AND THE COINS OF MY GRAND GRAND FATHERS

DejaVu
03-02-11, 15:45
"He who hath an ear ..... have understanding"

"Research it .... know the truth"

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Ephesians 6:12

DejaVu
03-02-11, 15:52
To call all words Greek is madness. Greek language is nothing but stolen words from other cultures.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenician_alphabet
When the Phoenician alphabet was first uncovered in the 19th century, its origins were unknown. Scholars at first believed that the script was a direct variation of Egyptian hieroglyphs (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyph). This idea was especially popular due to the recent decipherment of hieroglyphs. However, scholars could not find any link between the two writing systems. Certain scholars[who? (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Avoid_weasel_words)] hypothesized ties with Hieratic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hieratic), Cuneiform (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cuneiform), or even an independent creation, perhaps inspired by some other writing system. The theories of independent creation ranged from the idea of a single man conceiving it, to the Hyksos (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hyksos) people forming it from corrupt Egyptian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Egyptian_hieroglyphs).

The Paleo-Hebrew alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Paleo-Hebrew_alphabet), used to write early Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_language), was a regional offshoot of, but was rooted in Phoenician; it is nearly identical to the Phoenician one. The Samaritan alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Samaritan_alphabet), used by the Samaritans (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Samaritan), is a direct descendant of the Paleo-Hebrew alphabet.
The Aramaic alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aramaic_alphabet), used to write Aramaic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aramaic), is another descendant of Phoenician. Aramaic being the lingua franca (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lingua_franca) of the Middle East, it was widely adopted. It later split off (due to power/political borders) into a number of related alphabets, including the Hebrew alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_alphabet), the Syriac alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Syriac_alphabet), and the Nabataean alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Nabataean_alphabet). Thus Phoenician was the origin of the Arabic alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arabic_alphabet) which is the major alphabet of the Arabic Middle East - from Iraq, the Levant, and North Africa.

According to Herodotus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Herodotus), Phoenician prince Cadmus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cadmus) was accredited with the introduction of the Phoenician alphabet—phoinikeia grammata, "Phoenician letters"—to the Greeks, who adapted it to form their Greek alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/History_of_the_Greek_alphabet), which was later introduced to the rest of Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Europe). Herodotus, who gives this account, estimates that Cadmus lived sixteen hundred years before his time, or around 2000 BC. However, Herodotus' writings are not used as a standard source by contemporary historians. The Greek alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_alphabet) is derived from the Phoenician alphabet. The phonology of Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek_phonology) being different from that of Phoenician, the Greeks modified the Phoenician script to better suit their language. It was particularly more important in Greek to write out vowel sounds: Phoenician being a Semitic language, words were based on consonantal roots (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Semitic_roots&action=edit&redlink=1) that permitted extensive removal of vowels without loss of meaning, a feature absent in the Indo-European (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Indo-European_languages) Greek. For this reason the Greeks adapted some of the signs of the Phoenician script that represented unused consonants for vowels. For example ʾāleph (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aleph), which designated a glottal stop (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Glottal_stop) in Phoenician, was re-purposed to represent the vowel /a/.
The Cyrillic alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cyrillic_alphabet) was derived from the Greek alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_alphabet). Some Cyrillic letters are based on Glagolitic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Glagolitic) forms, which were influenced by the Hebrew alphabet.[citation needed (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]
The Latin alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Latin_alphabet) was derived from Old Italic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Italic_alphabet) (originally a form of the Greek alphabet), used for Etruscan (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Etruscan_language) and other languages. The Runic alphabet (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Runic_alphabet) also seems to have been derived from an early form of Old Italic alphabet, via the Alpine scripts.

Most historians believe that the Brahmi script (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Brahmi_script) and the subsequent Indic alphabets (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Indic_alphabets) are derived from the Aramaic script as well, which would make Phoenician the ancestor of most writing systems in use today. This possibly includes even hangul (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hangul), which may have been influenced by Brahmic Phagspa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Phagspa_script). This would mean that of all the major national scripts in use in the world today, only the Chinese script (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Chinese_script) and its derivatives have an independent origin.

iapetoc
03-02-11, 20:31
"He who hath an ear ..... have understanding"

"Research it .... know the truth"

"For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."
Ephesians 6:12


He who Speaks truth have nothing to fear,

You can't serve two masters,
either you Betrayed one,
Ancient Makedonians or Slavic people

12 “To the angel of the church in Pergamum write: These are the words of him who has the sharp, double-edged sword. 13 I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, not even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives.
14 Nevertheless, I have a few things against you: There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Balaam, who taught Balak to entice the Israelites to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to idols and committed sexual immorality. 15 Likewise, you also have those who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 Repent therefore! Otherwise, I will soon come to you and will fight against them with the sword of my mouth.
17 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who is victorious, I will give some of the hidden manna. I will also give that person a white stone with a new name written on it, known only to the one who receives it.




Revelation 2

in other words

There are some among you who hold to the teaching of Communism, who taught Tito to entice the Slavic people to sin so that they ate food sacrificed to GREEKS and committed sexual immorality

Repent therefore!


known only to the one who receives it.
you are not cause your Language and knowledge is Far beyond to realize the words of Argeians


Ancient Makedonia is one, and was is and wiil be Greek 3000 years
Slavic-Makedonia is a free state with modern roots 1500 years,

DejaVu
03-02-11, 21:00
Illyrian language (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9042146/Illyrian-language)
Indo-European language spoken in pre-Roman times along the eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea and in southeastern Italy.
The language of the Illyrian fragments found in Italy is usually called Messapic, or Messapian.
Some scholars believe the modern Albanian language (?????????) (q.v.) to be descended from Illyrian.

Those scholars are so blind...

http://i12.tinypic.com/6s8kytj.gif

Garrick
03-02-11, 22:08
No comment.

Sorry, but I havent seen so much ugly people as Albanians, take it as a comment Shqiptari.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-zEWFSPUCU - "see for yourself - albanian faces"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggt2sy_-Ao - Albanians are actually Arabs (German documentary)

DejaVu
I am neither Serbian nor Albanian nationalists, I am a researcher.

I read many sources and opposing one another, to gather its findings.

The Albanians I would never underestimate, they will soon overtake the number of Bulgarians in the Balkans, and be the fifth nation in population after the Turks, Romanians, Greeks and Serbs.

And the Albanian population is the youngest.


You can see how Albanias see Macedonia:

(Clip Youtube)

"The writings of Ancient Greek and Roman authors confirm implicitly the Illyrian identity of Ancient Macedonians: Pliny the Elder [IV, X, 33], Strabo [7,7,1; 7.7.8; 7, 11], Ptolemy [3,12]

Based on this clear information, a large number of historians and linguists of the XIX-th and XX-th century uphold a hypothesis on Illyrian identity of Macedonians. We can mention here: Karl Otfrid Muller, William Smith, Charl Anthony, G. Finlay etc.

Later on, other well known linguists that do support the thesis of Illyrian essence in the Ancient Macedonians language are: G. Kazaroff, M. Rostovtzeff, M. Budimir, H. Baric (Miltiades Hatzopoulos: 1999).

Even the greatest supporters of the hypothesis that the Macedonians were Greeks, do accept a strong influence of the Illyrian language into the Ancient Macedonian language.

Paliga states: “It is therefore difficult to say ehether the ancient Macedonians spoke idiom closer to Thracian, Illyrian, Greek or a specific idiom.” (Paglia cited in Fol 2002 : 219)

Hammond accepts that when: “the Macedonians expanded, they overlaid and lived with peoples who spoke Illyrian, Paeoninan, Thracian and Phrygian, and they certainly borrowed words from them which excited the authors of lexica and glossaries”. (Hammond: 1989)

To be fair, the debate on the characteristics of the Macedonian language is still unfinished, because there are: ‘theories varying from a basically Illyrian “creole” to a Greek-thracian-illyrian ‘pidgin’. (Anastasios-Phoivos Christides 2007)

Archaeological data show an undisputable Illyrian presence in the Ancient Macedonia. Archaeological findings in Vergina (Aigai – an Illyrian fondation, i.e capital of Ancient Macedonia) show similarity as well as uniformity to the Glasinac culture.

...

The latest archaeological findings do support this statement. Here, we can mention the table with inscriptions found a decade ago near Greek-Macedonian border.

...
The most reasonable and logical explanation regarding the etymology of the name of the Ancient Macedonia is found in the language of Illyrians and Epirotes, who were the ethnic inhabitants of Ancient Macedonia.

The very name of Macedonia, formerly known as ‘Emathia,’ derives in all probability from the Albanian word “E Madhia”, meaning “The Greatest”. (Larned et al 1922)

...
Even during the Medieval times, the Byzantine writers refer to Albanians as Macedonians. Macedonian at that time marked someone who spoke Albanian. Until about the fifteenth century Albanians were not called Albanians but Illyrians, or even Macedonians.

This means that the terms Macedonian, Illyrian and Albanian were interchangeable and were used to note the Medieval Albanian. At that time, even the educated Albanians were signing and declaring themselves as Macedonianas.

...
As shown above, the ancient written material, the archaeological findings, as well as mythological, ethnographical and linguistic material, they all testify to the fact that Macedonia was and is Albanian during 4000 years of her history.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=97NS-uZMohw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=97NS-uZMohw)


And you can see modern times in Macedonia FYROM

Albanians promote statue of Skenderbeg, Skopje

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptp0WaDnqsA&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ptp0WaDnqsA&feature=related)

DejaVu
03-02-11, 22:28
Looks like you are afraid of your own shadow.

If you did not notice so far in modern times its about United States and their way to rule the world. Illuminati, Freemasons, Skulls and bones . . .

Dont forget - "What goes around comes around"

Garrick
03-02-11, 22:45
Looks like you are afraid of your own shadow.

If you did not notice so far in modern times its about United States and their way to rule the world. Illuminati, Freemasons, Skulls and bones . . .

Dont forget - "What goes around comes around"

DejaVu
These are serious and respected researchers, you can read their biographies:

Karl Otfried Müller (August 28, 1797–August 1, 1840), was a German (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Germany) scholar and Philodorian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Philodorian), or admirer of ancient Sparta (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sparta), who introduced the modern study of Greek mythology (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_mythology).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Otfried_M%C3%BCller

Sir William Smith Kt. (1813–1893) was a noted English lexicographer (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lexicographer).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Smith_(lexicographer)

Charles Anthon (November 19, 1797 – July 29, 1867) was an American (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/United_States) classical scholar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Classical_scholar), born in New York City (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/New_York_City).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Anthon

George Finlay (1799–1875), historian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Historian), of Scottish (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Scotland) descent, was born at Faversham, Kent (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Faversham,_Kent), where his father, an officer in the army, was inspector of government powder mills (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Powder_mill).

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Finlay

iapetoc
04-02-11, 00:06
Illyrian language (http://www.britannica.com/eb/article-9042146/Illyrian-language)
Indo-European language spoken in pre-Roman times along the eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea and in southeastern Italy.
The language of the Illyrian fragments found in Italy is usually called Messapic, or Messapian.
Some scholars believe the modern Albanian language (?????????) (q.v.) to be descended from Illyrian.

Those scholars are so blind. ..

http://i12.tinypic.com/6s8kytj.gif

english Ancient Greek IE Non IE Greek Tyrrshenian Thrasian?
a stream rea roe- rema Lun
water Hydor (idor) idro neto notismeno animeno thrassian Edu
swamp Elos Barikos Balticos baltos Telma Louni-Luni thrasian Bara
puddle Limn-e Limen-e Pellag-os = Sea, Pelago
woman Gyn-i Gen-e (Gwen) Gre-a (γραια)
Brother Frater -> a-terf-os
husks of grapes (φλοιοι)floie-vlioie GRMAK Vlid-es stemfila stipura
dog κυων ceon Kion (skilos from skula)
cow agelas kthnos-ktinos
cow niples maesti
famous Femis-menos but also Cleιnon Κλεινον Αστυ Kleos-Gleo = Grorius
wolf lykos λυκος Gr Mak (Danat-os, end of life-death)
oak Drus Dris, Gr Mak BALLA Dorian Belan-os (-idia), Kerk-ops(athenean old language, Tyrrshenian)
lake Lugo Thracian Lago porto lagos
great Meg-as GR MAK Taran-os Dorian Tarant-as Teran
horse Pollos (foal), Epibetor Ippos (Alogon=no speech)
between Mesa , meta + dative case
lake Limne
waterfall ydatoptosis -ydroptosis Kataraktis,
GR MAK oessa-essa (Edessa=edu+ossa), Gr Aeolian Oetta ss=tt thalatta=thalassa also ss=δ=d (Mt Ossa Mt Oite city Edessa) Tyrrshenian

strong Sthenaros Gr Makedonian Pellios Pellasin= makedonian council of strong Families Gr Aeolian-Thessalian Pallios palle= wrestling (ancient olympic game)
Tyrsshenian Thracian Pell-Pall mt Pellion, pellekis= axe (strong edge)

clouds nefel GrMAK nevel also syn+nefel=synnefo
salt als-alat
spear aris-(sa) (to drill-penetrate) dori (from oak tree) akontio-ekontio (javelin)
Homeric (a)ksifei (sharp metal) Λογχη = lonche (the sharp metal infront of spear)
merchant Fertos (tertos also tertip-os) Non IE emporos
tribe people Φυλλη Phyll- Phill (fill) NonΙΕ Edos-Ednos (Mak-ednos) also ethnos
Tyrrshenian Thracian edi-ethi (apsynthi, bithini, maedi Sithones-Sethones melanditae Paeti Aedi mygdones

ves καλος αριστος ev (ευ) ev+genos = kind Noble
ev+arestos = goodlooking
ev+echo = good wish etc

good spirits Evoion-a Evion Evchae



Want more Deja Vu?
or you can't speak Ancient Makedonian

ALL THE WORDS YOU GIVE ARE IE
YOU MUST FIND THE NON IE TO CONNECT PEOPLE
UNDERSTAND THAT
YOU CAN'T GIVE IE WORDS AND COMPARE
YOU MUST FIND THE NON IE LANGUAGE TO COMPARE
SO STOP BULLSHIT PROPAGANDA

DejaVu
04-02-11, 00:26
Greek without the real language and root "Phoenician alphabet", is nothing and nobody cared to speak it today, its over with the crap language. Even the ancient Macedonians didnt give a damn about it, used for all others to understand the common language in antiquity, like english is today. Modern Greek and Albanian language does not sound European at all. The Greek Civilization using others progress, who was not theirs, did not last long.

Garrick
04-02-11, 00:34
Iapetoc
Who do you think has more sources that can build their own constructions about alleged descedents of Ancient Macedonians?

Albanians,

Slav Macedonians,

Nobody of them.

DejaVu
04-02-11, 01:16
Iapetoc
Who do you think has more sources that can build their own constructions about alleged descedents of Ancient Macedonians?

Albanians,

Slav Macedonians,

Nobody of them.

Macedonia will never join Serbia, how much you even try to write crap here. Maybe Greece, Albania or Kosovo will be your new home because you like them very well, you keep writing about them all the time.

Garrick
04-02-11, 01:39
Macedonia will never join Serbia, how much you even try to write crap here. Maybe Greece, Albania or Kosovo will be your new home because you like them very well, you keep writing about them all the time.

DejaVu
you gave me the epithets so far is really does not make sense, someone else in my place would cease to talk with you, and personally I do not want a rematch words, this means, we can speak the power of arguments, ideas, sources and so on, but without the personal insults.

I am a researcher, just when I get into a topic I want to explore it from all sides.

For example, you completely ignore the Albanians and Albanian sources.

I do not ignore anyone, and the Albanians are certainly not to be underestimated, nor their history or the present, and you see Albanians proclaim they are descedents of Ancient Macedonians and they refer to a variety of sources.

iapetoc
04-02-11, 01:40
Garric

the connection among Makedonians Illyrians and Thracians is very well written in Arrian
soon a war is going to happened
every body knows that

I can't tell the alliances

but Yugoslavia war is nothing to compare with what is coming

oil drilling in Albania Greece Turkey Cyprus Bulgaria and pipes to Europe
why do you thing UN NATO have army in Fyrom????
the crossroad and the center to provide

now about Ancient Makedonians is more complex
the central Makedonia was Argeian Dynasty from north Thessaly
Greeks near Thracians with Greco-Thracian accent
The west Makedonians were Aeolians with Illyro-Thrasian accent
above Makedonia were also Thrasians and Illyrians
The Doberes (dobre) and the Paeonians ->near to slavic people
above the west Makedonians were dardani Illyro thracians
the Makedonia started with 4 cities (heracleia Dion Pydna Balla) later took lands of Vrygi (edessa-Aiges-Pella) wich were a nation semi Greek semi thracian,
they had Greek isotones and many grammar laws like Greek but a Tyrrshenian semi Greek semi east Thracian
the Boettians, Cretans who invade Makedonia at 1100 BC moved east south oF doiran lake and north of Chalkidiki next to mygnonians

later Amyntas unite Mygdonians Boettians Aianes(aeolians) and Illyro-thracian of Ochrid to a state, a kingom,
that is why many Makedonian pellasioi (nobles-prince-barons)
could not speak south Greek,
and that is why makedonians pronounced v the f etc
if you read Areianos you see the connections of some families with Greco-Illyrians
example Kleitos (general)
the system was 1 emperor with a council of elder city kings
a council of Generals, and a council of prince
for example ex athenean collony had a prince not a King
I can't remember for sure but at Phillips times were 13 kings and generals and 26 prince and ambassadors and lower commanders
at Alexanders times reach the 100 near India
By what I remember before Phillip were 2 Illyrian-Makedonian and 3 Thracian (1 king Dobere-Paeoni (Amphaxitis-Skopje) named Driop and general Demetrius and 2 other ambassadors from elsewhere)

the connection is written in Arrian mainly

also in lost books of Pergamos and Alexandreia
and all peculiar in a Uzbek book !!!!!!!!

DejaVu
04-02-11, 02:18
REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA
MACEDONIAN LANGUAGE
ETHNIC MACEDONIANS
EXIST

So keep on spamming whatever you want. Does not matter what you write and your stupid claims have failed, now you seek someone to accept your versions of reality. In other words, get help in time.

Elias2
04-02-11, 04:57
Macedonian is not a distinct enough language to be seperate, its more a branch of the south slavic languages. Ethnic macedonians don't exist, the slavs in FYROM call themselves macedonian but I could call myself native aboriginal of canada and it would be the same logic. Macedonia doesn't exist, its FYROM until a comprimise has been reached.

Have a good day dejavu ;)

iapetoc
04-02-11, 15:48
Hellenik rebublic
ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ region
ethnicitie :makedonik
nationality: Hellenik
languge: Monder hellenik, hellenistic koine a & b, makedonian dialect


republic of macedonja
ethnicitie unknown
nationality Slavic
language Bulgarski (Macedonski dialect), Albanian, Srpski


keep dreaming dejavu
we will always be here

Most sources in and out of Bulgaria before the Second World War referred to the southern Slavonic dialect continuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_dialect_continuum) covering the area of today's Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) as a group of Bulgarian dialects.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-foreigners-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-16)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-17)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-18)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-19)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-20) The local variants of the name of the language are balgàrtski, bolgàrtski, bulgàrtski,[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-21) bògartski, bogàrtski, bùgarski or bugàrski. Some linguists consider them still as such, but this view is politically controversial.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-ucla-22)[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-23)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-24) After WWII, the question about the Bulgarian character of the language in the territory of the Republic of Macedonia was put aside in the name of Bulgarian-Yugoslavian friendship under the pressure of the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union). After 1958 when the pressure from Moscow decreased, Sofia turned back to the view that the Macedonian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language) did not exist as a separate language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language

Besides Genetics proved that Fyrom is more Relative with Serbia and Bosna than with Makedonia

Garrick
04-02-11, 18:44
DejaVu

Greece is the cradle of European civilization and culture.

In Greece is developed democracy, philosophy, mathematics, natural and social sciences, drama, Olympics and others.

The thought of Greece every true European inspire appreciation and respect.

Europe would never be what it is that it was not Greece.

When I think that should travel to Greece delight because I go into this wonderful country (but I didn’t go often and will intensify in coming years).

Historical facts.

Start of European history begins with the the Greeks.


And what about Macedonia FYROM?

• founded in 1945 by the Communists as a republic within the Socialist Federal Republic of Yugoslavia

• before World War II was in the territory of the Vardar Banovina of the Kingdom of Yugoslavia,

• before that was the territory of Serbia who establish the Kingdom of Yugoslavia,

• before that was part of the Ottoman Empire,

• and before that in the Byzantine Empire, Serbia or Bulgaria.


DejaVu
deny if any of this is not true.

But everything is completely true.


Compare 5000 years of Greece and 65 years Macedonia FYROM.

These are facts and true, all the rest are deposits of ideology, propaganda and delusion.

how yes no 2
05-02-11, 00:08
DejaVu
...
I am a researcher, just when I get into a topic I want to explore it from all sides.
your posts on this topic do not strike me as researcher kind of posts...more like claiming the things you think will affect DejaVu's emotions the most... perhaps you are into research of human psyche, but to be researcher in history of nations you need to be much more objective....



I do not ignore anyone, ...
sure you do... you have taken side in this topic...and your side is "against DejaVu", so you ignore all his arguments... some of his arguments are useless as he tends to uncritically transfer what he reads...but some make lot of sense...

DejaVu
05-02-11, 00:15
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract)
Abstract
HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks.

Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...



ETHNIC MACEDONIANS OLDEST IN BALKAN (LONGER HISTORY THEN GREEKS).
WAS IN BALKAN BEFORE GREEKS, SERBS, ALBANIANS AND BULGARIANS.

ALZHEIMER IN GARRICK´S NATIONALISTIC HEAD. WHEN WILL YOU START WRITING ABOUT THE SERBIAN HISTORY? NEVER, BECAUSE YOU HAVE NO CLUE. YOU TRIED TO SHOW ALL WITH DIENEKES GENETIC TEST THAT MACEDONIANS ARE SERBS BUT YOU FAILED AND YOU WILL FAIL ALL THE TIME NOW. YOU ARE A BIG LOSER JUST ADMIT IT. FAIL LIKE YOUR GREEK ALLIES THAT HAVE LOST ALL STATEMENTS WITH THE BIBLE, ETHNIC MACEDONIANS WAS BULGARIANS, ETHINC MACEDONIANS DONT EXIST, GREEKS ARE A MIX OF MANY PEOPLE BUT CONTINUED DENIAL, GREEK HISTORY MADE BY OTHERS AND NOT BY GREEKS. GENETIC TEST SHOWED THEY ARE SUB-SAHARAN THAT THEY DENIE, WHAT MORE IS THERE TO PROOF? CONTINUED DENIAL WONT SAVE GREEKS AND YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN REVEALED. CONCLUSION: GREEKS ARE FAKE = FACT

how yes no 2
05-02-11, 00:25
Garric

the connection among Makedonians Illyrians and Thracians is very well written in Arrian
hm, can you quote some sources?
if there is such a connection, it might as well be about Slavic-alike people as Thracians are satem speakers like Balts, Slavs and Albanians...


soon a war is going to happened
every body knows that

I can't tell the alliances

but Yugoslavia war is nothing to compare with what is coming
wars are never really good for any of the people who participate in them...
do not hope for a war, and doubt in alliances promised before war...

last years there is obvious attempt to establish Turkish area of influence in Balkan...to revive Ottoman empire....so far it goes via business and politics... few days ago Turkish minister of external affairs was talking fairy tales about Balkan having been prosperous place while it was in Ottoman empire...

if there will be big war in Balkans in next few years, Greece will not be in good position as Turkey have stronger army ... and NATO will not interfere in war between member states... my advice to Greece is to avoid any armed conflict with any of its neighbors in next decade.... as any war in region can escalate easily....

for Macedonia any war in region is also extremely dangerous as it has very weak army....

DejaVu
05-02-11, 00:41
Hellenik rebublic
ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ region
ethnicitie :makedonik
nationality: Hellenik
languge: Monder hellenik, hellenistic koine a & b, makedonian dialect


republic of macedonja
ethnicitie unknown
nationality Slavic
language Bulgarski (Macedonski dialect), Albanian, Srpski


keep dreaming dejavu
we will always be here

Most sources in and out of Bulgaria before the Second World War referred to the southern Slavonic dialect continuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_dialect_continuum) covering the area of today's Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) as a group of Bulgarian dialects.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-foreigners-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-16)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-17)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-18)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-19)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-20) The local variants of the name of the language are balgàrtski, bolgàrtski, bulgàrtski,[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-21) bògartski, bogàrtski, bùgarski or bugàrski. Some linguists consider them still as such, but this view is politically controversial.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-ucla-22)[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-23)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-24) After WWII, the question about the Bulgarian character of the language in the territory of the Republic of Macedonia was put aside in the name of Bulgarian-Yugoslavian friendship under the pressure of the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union). After 1958 when the pressure from Moscow decreased, Sofia turned back to the view that the Macedonian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language) did not exist as a separate language.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language

Besides Genetics proved that Fyrom is more Relative with Serbia and Bosna than with Makedonia


MODERN GREEKS
Ethnicity: Christian Turks with Arvanites (Albanians) who play the role of modern (even ancient) Greeks.
Language: Mix of Turkish and Koine (Byzantine common language and adopted to the modern Greeks).
Genetics: Non-European, (Sub-Saharan)

MODERN MACEDONIANS
Ethnicity: Original Macedonians (Was Macedonians and will continue to be Macedonians)
Language: Macedonian (One of the oldest languages in Europe and root to all slavic languages)
Genetics: Oldest Balkan people (Original Macedonians)

THERE IS EVIDENCE OF THIS FACTS, JUST SEE THE OTHER POSTS IN SAME THREAD (Macedonians).

DejaVu
05-02-11, 00:57
Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages Webster Dictionary year 1967-1969!

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Indoeuropean_languages.jpg
Taken from the Webster Dictionary 1967-1969.



What is the name of the language? MACEDONIAN
Who speak Macedonian? MACEDONIANS


FACT!

DejaVu
05-02-11, 01:07
WHAT MAP IS THIS? MACEDONIA
WHO LIVED THERE? MACEDONIANS
http://makedonija.name/images/history/twentieth_century/division_fullmap.gif
"Map of ethnical-geographical Macedonia, a territory that
was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913"



WHOS FLAG? MACEDONIA
PEOPLE? MACEDONIANS
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Flag_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia_1991-1995.svg/600px-Flag_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia_1991-1995.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Flag_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia_1991-1995.svg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Ethnic_flag_of_the_Macedonians.png/800px-Ethnic_flag_of_the_Macedonians.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Ethnic_flag_of_the_Macedonians.png)


FACT!

DejaVu
05-02-11, 01:12
DO THEY LOOK LIKE SUB-SAHARANS (GREEKS)?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/Filip_II_Macedonia.jpg/415px-Filip_II_Macedonia.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Filip_II_Macedonia.jpg)
WHO IS THIS? PHILIP II OF MACEDON
ETHNICITY: MACEDONIAN

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b0/AlexandreLouvre.jpg/450px-AlexandreLouvre.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/AlexandreLouvre.jpg)
WHO IS THIS? ALEXANDER III OF MACEDON
ETHNICITY: MACEDONIAN


FACT!

Garrick
05-02-11, 01:27
How yes no,
You can see how ugly words DejaVu said about me and I almost nothing about him except as a most necessary defense.

But he does not understand what I want to say.

I give you examples of what he says:



Maybe Greece, Albania or Kosovo will be your new home because you like them very well, you keep writing about them all the time.


Kosovo is impossible to solve but the other balkan countries got no problem (only FYRO Macedonia with Greece about the name issue and identity).




Sorry, but I havent seen so much ugly people as Albanians, take it as a comment Shqiptari.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-zEWFSPUCU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L-zEWFSPUCU) - "see for yourself - albanian faces"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggt2sy_-Ao (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iggt2sy_-Ao) - Albanians are actually Arabs (German documentary)



He very underestimates Albanians and thinks that his only problem is with the Greeks.

But I can put thousands of sources referred from the Albanians that they are descendants of ancient Macedonia, and these sources are very, very serious and are not to be underestimated.

He looks only his sources, and disregards the other.

The problem, however, as the Slav Macedonians sources are thin.

When I talking in Macedonia FYROM about ancient roots individuals are invited to Aromanians and some other minorities who are not Greek or Albanian.

And sources are mainly writings some Slav Macedonian researchers.

But believe me, how yes no, Albanian sources are much more serious and there are many Western and other scientists since the nineteenth century till today who in some way connected the Illyrians/Albanians with the ancient Macedonians.

Albanian scientists have developed a whole science about it and the sources have much more weight, four Western scientists I have already demonstrated and their biographies.

And new researchings is highly favor the Albanians, I mentioned research E1b1b1 haplogroups in Pakistan, and if you want I will mention one other discovery, archaeological, which gave wings to the Albanians claim that they are descendents of Ancient Macedonians.

How yes no,
imagine a situation where you can find Slav Macedonians how construct of ancient buildings and ancient statues placed in Skopje and proclaim the antiquity at every turn and in the meantime it appears irrefutably a discovery about the Illyrian/Albanian history of ancient Macedonia.

Does it even can imagine what would have happened in this situation?

Because if Albanians agree dice and find compelling evidence, and already have some arguments, playing Slav Macedonians on the card ancient Macedonia is a wrong strategy that leads to disaster.

I’m not Albanian or Serbian or Greek nationalist, just a real person who points out the reality and not illusion.

DejaVu
05-02-11, 01:35
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/MSR.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/MSR.png)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e7/Europe-Macedonia.svg/713px-Europe-Macedonia.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Europe-Macedonia.svg)
WHAT COUNTRY? REPUBLIC OF MACEDONIA
PEOPLE? MACEDONIANS

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f8/Flag_of_Macedonia.svg/800px-Flag_of_Macedonia.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Flag_of_Macedonia.svg)
FLAG? MACEDONIAN

WHERE DO THE MACEDONIANS LIVE?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)


FACT!

DejaVu
05-02-11, 01:57
lebrok

iapetoc is macedonian (greece).

Dejavu is slavic macedonian (macedonia, fyrom).

The ancient macedonians according to historical sources, most likely the dorian tribe makednoi.
Slavomacedonians are closest serbs according to research haplogroup.

scientific analysis of dna results
dieckens decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern europe and some neighboring populations.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html)

labels are as follows:

gre: Greece
ser: Serbia
sma: Slavic macedonia (fyrom)
her: Herzegovina
bos: Bosnia
alb: Albania
kal: Kosovo albanians
slo: Slovenia
cro: Croatia
ukr: Ukraine
tur: Turkey
hun: Hungary
rom: Romania
ita: Italy

you can see his results on map.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/416/princomp5or.jpg

i tried to introduce changes for serbia and montenegro, mne (based on mirabal et al 2010) and albania, gal gege albanians and tal tosk albanians (according ferri et al, 2010).

the differences are as follows:

ser has moved somewhat closer to the left to her and bos;

if would be introduced in the picture gal (geges albanians) that would be slightly lower than the kal;

if would be injected also a tal (tosk albanians) that would not be much moved over in comparison to alb;

if would be introduced montenegro it would be about halfway between the diagonal and gal ser.


despite these changes for serbia would be the closest to the left bosnia (bos) again the right macedonia fyrom apropos macedonia fyrom is by far the closest to serbia.


in the original dieckens paper serbia and macedonia fyrom are almost folded, which indicates a high congruence of population.

This is how the insult started.
Garrick (Arvanite Greek with Serbian flag) started to claim something that was 100% wrong. I was slavo macedonian and iapetoc macedonian? When both are haplogroup G? Proof 0%.
Dienekes test was not relevant neither accepted by any real genetic research company and will never be accepted if not done with all haplogroups of the countries, he mixed up what would be the best for Greeks (Fake result) = ethnic Macedonians are close to Serbs, thats why they are Serbs and can not be Ancient Macedonians. Serbians and macedonians are not same and never will be, get that in your brain.
You maybe thought you could get away from your hidden agenda, but nobody will get away that easy.
You (Garrick) havent posted anything relevant anywhere and you continue with posting same spam about your love for albanians and greeks all the time, soon it will be a report to moderator to exclude you of this forum.

iapetoc
05-02-11, 02:29
modern greeks
ethnicity: christian turks with arvanites (albanians) who play the role of modern (even ancient) greeks.
language: mix of turkish and koine (byzantine common language and adopted to the modern greeks).
genetics: non-european, (sub-saharan)

modern macedonians
ethnicity: original macedonians (was macedonians and will continue to be macedonians)
language: macedonian (one of the oldest languages in europe and root to all slavic languages)
genetics: oldest balkan people (original macedonians)

there is evidence of this facts, just see the other posts in same thread (macedonians).

"Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages Webster Dictionary year 1967-1969!"



how yes no

does that make sense? with This?

Most sources in and out of Bulgaria before the Second World War referred to the southern Slavonic dialect continuum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_dialect_continuum) covering the area of today's Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) as a group of Bulgarian dialects.[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-foreigners-15)[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-16)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-17)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-18)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-19)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-20) The local variants of the name of the language are balgàrtski, bolgàrtski, bulgàrtski,[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-21) bògartski, bogàrtski, bùgarski or bugàrski. Some linguists consider them still as such, but this view is politically controversial.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-ucla-22)[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-23)[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_language#cite_note-24) After WWII, the question about the Bulgarian character of the language in the territory of the Republic of Macedonia was put aside in the name of Bulgarian-Yugoslavian friendship under the pressure of the Soviet Union (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Union). After 1958 when the pressure from Moscow decreased, Sofia turned back to the view that the Macedonian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language) did not exist as a separate language.


Does the Quote Make sence with this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/57/Map_Peloponnesian_War_431_BC-en.svg
or this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Map_Macedonia_336_BC-en.svg

watch Fyrom AT Makedonian kingdom times
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Paeonians.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Paeonians.png


now HOW YES NO
do you understand????

LOOK THE GENETIC SIMILARITY OF FYROM AND SERBIA AND BOSNIA
THE FYROM IS MORE SERBIAN THAN SERBIA
WHY? BECAUSE IN TESTS IS A BIG ALBANIAN E-V13 WHICH IS FROM ALBANIAN MINORITY
Albanians are 30% of population and have 45% E-V13
so if you make the mathematical references then you see that Fyrom is Near 40% I2a
same as Serbia and almost Bosnia
Now about Culture and Language are more connected with the medieval Western Bulgarian Culture and Language

The Truth is that many times I was wondering if I2a has to do with ancient Thracians
But Many times I come back from Thoukidides when says that Athens spoke Tyrrshenian before Greek

the fact is that Thracians ruled upon many cultures or learn Language from J2
(Greco-Aryan approach not Kurgan-Hypothesis)
Greco-Thracians
North East Daci-Thracians
East Odrysse-Thracians
West Illyro-Thracians
Central and North-West tribes that were carriers of I2a (fyrom Bosnia Serbia etc)
Minor Asia Thracians, Italy Thracians
the linguistic and culture connection is bigger as long we back until almost 2-3 000 BC
and it is different before

Today modern Bulgarian and Dacian are trying to connect their language with Ancient Thracian
for example even claim to be Thracian as also Kossovo, turkey etc
crete spain italy the bull is Toro or tavro or tauro
Athens is BOLOS Thessaly Makedonia is BOLinthros
Bulgarian Fyrom is BOL
Serbian Croatian HUngarian is BIK
but the calf is
Crete ThessalianEast Makedonian Vodali VIDALI (itali Vitalli)
Aromanian-armani, albanian is Damali Demi
Athens Central-West Makedonia Moschos Mouskar
Bulgarian Fyrom Serbia Ucraine Telec
the last is according History
meaning that the word 'telec' came from Ucraine to Balkans
at Slavic invasions times (500-600 AD)_
and not from south-central Balkans (Fyrom) to Ucraine
as Dejavu claims
"Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages"
But the BOL-BOLOS-Bolinthros tells us that Athens and Bulgaria had similar Language before
(tyrrshenian)

as you see linguistic the lines although they connect, although they divide,
Many works that have been done by linguists gave similarity by majority of words (mainly not IE)
and not by one or few, that leads to connection of nations before times
as also Genetic engineering does
you can not have N Y-dna and claim to be ancient Hollander
you maybe are Hollander cause your family lived there 50-1000 years etc and you are assimilated
But that does not mean that Ancient Hollanders were N

AM I CLEAR HOW YES NO?

Garrick
05-02-11, 02:38
This is how the insult started.
Garrick (Arvanite Greek with Serbian flag) started to claim something that was 100% wrong. I was slavo macedonian and iapetoc macedonian? When both are haplogroup G? Proof 0%.
Serbians and macedonians are not same and never will be, get that in your brain.
You maybe thought you could get away from your hidden agenda, but nobody will get away that easy.
You (Garrick) havent posted anything relevant anywhere and you continue with posting same spam about your love for albanians and greeks all the time, soon it will be a report to moderator to exclude you of this forum.

DejaVu
What you are looking for support for a moderator to me the switch is completely pointless.

You do not understand what I say because you do not want to hear.

But I hope you will now understand.


This is the territory of ancient Macedonia and the present boundaries of the state.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/LocationMacedonia-MAC-3-z.png

As you can see ancient Macedonia has covered not much of today's Macedonia FYROM.

Do you know whose population was north of the border Ancient Macedonia?

Largely, they were Illyrians the ancestors of today's Albanians.

And there is evidence for it, if you want it can be set, but let it do some of the Albanians.


Iapetoc knows it and he set up this map, right and limiting the territory without going into Illyrian territory.

Are you aware that the Albanians of Macedonia FYROM territory of today's often called Ilirida.

And are you aware that this is not by accident.

What do you have of it not letting you hear a second opinion than yours on the forum.

Only the Communists did it.

See, you talked to me a lot of bad and I do not mind.

I this write here on the forum I say people in Macedonia in the eye.

And many from them think about these words.

Think, just north of this border the Illyrians lived and there is no way to you prove the opposite when it can be found in encyclopedias and history books as you like.

Do you want to be posted?

The problem is because you not treat any facts, others speak for you to run a propaganda, but when someone writes something that is not you at will, then complain and wish that he be barred from speaking.

DejaVu
05-02-11, 03:01
MACEDONIA IS NOT GREEK! MACEDONIA IS MACEDONIA! NEVER WAS GREEK AND NEVER WILL BE!


Map of Homeric Greece
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9a/Homeric_Greece.svg/719px-Homeric_Greece.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/Homeric_Greece.svg)

Homer - Greek epic poet.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer

DejaVu
05-02-11, 03:19
HERODOTUS

CONCLUSION

Among the Greeks there exist a common bond, a community of blood and language, temples and rituals and common customs. This expressed kinship between the Greek allies is evident and it stands in stark contrast against the references used towards the Macedonians who were addressed as foreigners. We have seen that Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here he, using his own words clearly excludes the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks. We are therefore, left with the conclusion that Herodotus did not consider the Macedonians to be Greeks. As Borza had written, "Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" � Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Homeric_greece.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/ca/Homeric_greece.png)

Herodotus - Greek historian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus

Thucydides - Greek historian.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides

Eugene Borza - Professor emeritus of ancient history.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza

Elias2
05-02-11, 03:19
Homer lived 300 years before alexander FYI, helenization didn't reach them yet.

FYROM are yugoslavs with no identity. 30% are albanian and the rest are bulgarians and serbians who claim to be macedonians.

FACT

They want to be known as macedonians but comon sence won't let them, too bad ;)

Garrick
05-02-11, 03:27
These are the boundaries of ancient Macedonia and the northwest is Illyrian territories (Illyrian are ancestors of Albanians).


http://www.macedonia.info/map_thesis.jpg

DejaVu
05-02-11, 03:37
I want all facts about ancient Macedonia start to write now - everything and link source. Not a single word about FYRO MACEDONIA.

START NOW OR BE FOREVER SPAMMERS. SHOW YOUR SKILLS.

iapetoc
05-02-11, 05:00
DejaVU

one word SCHIZOPHRENEIA

Greek Makedonians migrating from South-East olymp to northFirst they PUSHED the Tribe Pieri a Greco-Thrasian Tribe of Orpheus ancient Leveithra
from the city of Herakleia (Hercules) and Dion north to Phylakes and Balla (Velventos-Near Servia and Katalonia Ballena) Servia in Proto-Makedonian means
Velventos
Phylakes means Tower of Guardians
Balla and its settlements
ballonEllenes
ballonista
Ballena
Druanista
Druassa
the nearby Pieri-Thracian city before Makedonian until today have the name Kitros according Greek-Tyrrshenian
Cotys -Cotyr means tough in Tyrrshenian

Later they went north

west of Phylacaes went from west Olymp the Lokroi tribe (Elimiotans) build Aiani
Aeolians lokroi (inland tribe from central Greece to Thessaly to Makedonia, cousins of Epirotans)
Lokri And Argeiad Makedonians unite and tooksome Vrygian lands while the Illyrians took their lands above Prespes lakes (a Greco thracian tribe)
the remains of Vrygian the Argeiads sons of Hercules the Lokroi sons of Makednos the Boettiaeans
According to Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo), Bottiaeans were Cretan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cretan) immigrants from Iapygia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapygia)
make the Makedonian Kingom
the name Makedonia original belongs to Lokroi West Makedonia and the name Argeads to Central Makedoniaand build Capital Aiges and later Pella
Lokroi conquer all lands until Prespes,
and Argeiades all the south Greek colonies in sea starting from Pydna (big port)
Karamos after the conquer of Pydna from Euboeans Became king of a oligarchy system-alliance
like Mycenae of a Big Kings and a council of kings
(like Agamemnon Big king and Menelaus, Nestror, Odysseas small kings)
slowly that united kingdom became strong and pushed Thrasians Bithyni Maedi to East and assimilate the Greco-Thrasian Mygdonians
later wars among Makedonians and Dardani and Makedonians and Paioni make new alliances and a complex system
for example Illyrians of Ohrid above Prespes lakes join Makedonian Kingdom (Arideans)council against Dardani (illyrothrasian) as also Paionians against Odrysse-Thracians
But Paionians had also another Royal House although they where Makedonian best alliance and high council members except Almopeans
Paionian lands where west from Aksos-Aksios river (Vardar) until Mt Haimos
the big union among Greeks , Illyrians and thracians was done under king Amyntas,
but Makedonians were so strong that even before Amyntas build colonies inside Thracian lands
like odomantikes sintikes bisalti, Phillip manage easily to conquer that lands and unite them and then started the big campaign to unite Greeks
the rest is known

Later when Romans came Paionians were weak and mostly assimilated by Makedonians and became the MAKEDONIA SECUNDA and makedonia became Makedonia PRIMERA
from that starts the bullshit of today
and continues with the stupidity of Byzantines to name Makedonia today Bulgaria, Thessalinique the Makedonia Primera, and Bulgaria today Fyrom and Serbia and Dardania

when Slavic nations came they pass Donau and make their own counsils and Kingdoms
the most known the Serbs own the road from Thessaloniki to Donau via rivers, the aqua system,
Serbs brought another air of indepence as also Balkars later, and another lingua that unite with ancient thracian (probably IE similarity) and give another accent than Roman or Greek similar to ancient Thracian and create the South-Slavic languages
which are a mix of ancient North-Thracian and Odrysse-Thracian
Cyrril and Method etc the rest is known, Dusan Simeon Samuel Slavic Kings Families
orthodoxia, ottomans, Slavonizations and later Islamizations and at west Unia and later Catholicism

the history remains if you see Armani (Aromani) Roman speaking people

First they PUSHED the Tribe Pieri a Greco-Thrasian Tribe of Orpheus ancient Leveithra


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/PieriaPieresExpulsionMap.jpg



WHAT IS THAT?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonian_language

The Paeonian language is the poorly attested language of the ancient Paeonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_%28kingdom%29), whose kingdom once stretched north of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon) into Dardania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29) and in earlier times into southwestern Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace).

Modern linguists are uncertain on the classification of Paeonian, due to the extreme scarcity of materials we have on this language. On one side are Wilhelm Tomaschek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Tomaschek) and Paul Kretschmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kretschmer), who claim it belonged to the Illyrian family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages), and on the other side is Dimiter Dečev (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dimiter_De%C4%8Dev&action=edit&redlink=1), who claims affinities with Thracian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language).

Stoboi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stobi) (nowadays Gradsko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradsko)), name of a city, from *stob(h) (cf. Old Prussian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussian) stabis "rock", Old Church Slavonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic) stoboru, "pillar", Old English stapol, "post", Ancient
Greek stobos, "scolding, bad language");


WHAT IS THIS????????????????

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Paeonians.png

Centuries later under Diocletian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian), Paeonia and Pelagonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagonia) formed a province called Macedonia Secunda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_Secunda) or Macedonia Salutaris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_Salutaris), belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praetorian_prefecture_of_Illyricum). By AD 400, however, the Paeonians had lost their identity, and the term Paeonia was rendered a mere geographic identifier.

Macedonia Secunda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_Secunda) NOT MAKEDONIA PRIMERA

WHO IS THIS???????

The Cambridge ancient history The Cambridge Ancient History, Martin Percival Charlesworth, ISBN 0-521-85073-8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0521850738), 978-0-521-85073-5 Volume 4 of Persia, Greece and the Western Mediterranean, C. 525 to 479 B.C, John Boardman,page 252,"The Paeonians were the earlier owners of some of these mines, but after their defeat in the coastal sector they maintained their independence in the mainland and coined large denominations in the upper Strymon and the Upper Axius area in the names of the Laeaei and the Derrones"

The Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0140449086),2003,page 315, "... was that a number of Paeonian tribes - the Siriopaeones, Paeoplae, ...

he Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0140449086),2003,page 452,"... Then he passed through the country of the Doberes and Paeoplae (Paeonian tribes living north of Pangaeum), and continued in a ..."


Paeonian Kings


Agis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agis_%28Paeonian%29) ? – 359 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/359_BC)
Lycceius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycceius)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-18) 356 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/356_BC) - 340 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/340_BC)
Patraus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patraus)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-19) 340 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/340_BC) - 315 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/315_BC)
Audoleon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audoleon)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-20) son of Patraus 315 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/315) - 285 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/285_BC)
Ariston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariston_of_Paionia)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-21) 286 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/286) - 285 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/285_BC) son of Audoleon
Leon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_of_Paionia)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-ReferenceA-22) 278 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/278_BC) - 250 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/250_BC)
Dropion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropion)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-ReferenceA-22) son of Leon 250 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/250_BC) - 230 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/230_BC)
Bastareus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastareus) ? - ? BC


In the Iliad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad), Asteropaios (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ἀστεροπαῖος; Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): Asteropaeus) was a leader of the Trojan-allied Paeonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians) along with fellow warrior Pyraechmes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyraechmes). Asteropaios was the son of Pelagon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagon), who was the son of the river god Axios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axios_River) and the mortal woman Periboia, daughter of Akessamenos (Greek: Ἀκεσσάμενος). Asteropaios was a newcomer to the war at the start of the Iliad; he had only been in Troy for less than two weeks.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteropaios#cite_note-0)

The name Asteropaios exist Still in Greek Makedonian names specially among Armani people

Pyraechmes (Πυραίχμης) was, along with Asteropaeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteropaeus), a leader of the Paeonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians) in the Trojan War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War). He came from the city of Amydon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amydon). Although Homer mentions Pyraechmes as the leader of the Paeonians early on in the Iliad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad), in the Trojan Catalogue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Catalogue), Pyraechmes plays a minor role compared to the more illustrious Asteropaeus, a later arrival to the front. Unlike Asteropaeus, Homer does not provide a pedigree for Pyraechmes (although Dictys Cretensis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictys_Cretensis) says his father was Axius - also the name of a river in Paeonia). Pyraechmes was killed in battle by Patroclus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patroclus): dressed in Achilles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles)' armor, Patroclus routed the panicked Trojans, and the first person he killed was Pyraechmes.

Langarus (died 335 BC), king of the Agrianians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrianians), was a contemporary of Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great) (336–323 BC), with whom he ingratiated himself even before the death of Philip II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon), previous king of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon). He rendered Alexander important services shortly after his accession, in his expedition against the Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria) and Taulantians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulanti), when the Autariatae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autariatae) were preparing to attack him on his march. Langarus by an invasion of their territory prevented them from carrying their purpose into effect. Alexander conferred on him the most distinguished marks of his regard and favour, and promised him his half-sister Cynane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynane) in marriage; but Langarus died soon after his return home.
[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langarus#cite_note-arr_1.5-0)Arrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrian), Anabasis Alexandri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_Alexandri), i. 5 (http://websfor.org/alexander/arrian/book1a.asp)

Also
When Eucharistus was archon at Athens, the Romans elected as consuls Quintus Servilius and Quintus Genucius. During their term of office Philip sent ambassadors to Athens and persuaded the assembly to make peace with him on the ground that he abandoned for all time any claim to Amphipolis.2 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Diod.+16.4&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084#note2) [2] Now that he was relieved of the war with the Athenians and had information that the king of the Paeonians, Agis, was dead, he conceived that he had the opportunity to attack the Paeonians. Accordingly, having conducted an expedition into Paeonia and defeated the barbarians in a battle, he compelled the tribe to acknowledge allegiance to the Macedonians.

Diodorus Siculus


kausia or Beret (Francais)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Antialcidas_Indo_Greek_coin.jpg

Depictions of the kausia can be found on a variety of coins and statues found from the Mediterranean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean) to the Greco-Bactrian kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_kingdom) and the Indo-Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks) in northwestern India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India). A modern descendant may be the pakul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakul) from the mountains of Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan) and Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan).



The name 'Skudra' was probably Phrygian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language) for the homeland, later called Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace), which the Phrygians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians) had left in migrating to Asia (See Bryges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges)). The peoples of the satrapy were named in c. 492 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/492_BC) as three : The Saka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka) Paradraya, meaning Sacae (a general name for Scythian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian)-type people) beyond the sea, probably the Getae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae), who resembled the Scythians in customs and equipment; the Skudra themselves, mainly Thracians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians); and Yauna Takabara (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yauna_Takabara&action=edit&redlink=1) or Ionians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionians) with a shield-like hat. The last were mentioned also on glazed bricks at the palace at Susa. Some scholars have supposed that the Sacae 'beyond the sea' were Scythian peoples of the Crimea whom Darius had subjugated, but it seems improbable that Persia did hold that area, and that if she had it was assigned to Skudra rather than to the territories in Georgia, centred on Tbilisi. Envoys from Skudra bringing tribute carried two javelins, a long knife and a small round shield, which were characteristic of Thracian troops later (See Pls. Vol., p1,.40 XIX.). The Greek-speaking people with the shield-like hat were the Macedones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedones), renowned for wearing the sun hat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_hat), as Alexander I of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon) did on his fine coins from 478 B.C . The Greek-speaking citizens of the colonial city states on the seaboard were not mentioned; nor did they wear a sun-hat.The Persepolis Fortification Archive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persepolis_Fortification_Archive) has numerous references to workers from Skudra and the most obvious candidates for Europeans working in some numbers deep within the Persian empire are the Paionians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians) whom Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) makes so much of in his narrative


Any similarity of Skydra or Skodra ???????

or now do you understand that
Fyrom's "SFATI" is PERSIAN WORD????????????

whatch the names
cotys
kotys

watch the Sinopean cities
In the 8th century BCE the city of Cotyora was founded in this area - one of a string of colonies along the Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea) coast established by the ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) Aegean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Islands) city of Miletos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miletos). The city of Ordu was established in the 15th century to serve as an Ottoman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) military center and headquarters.

Now do you understand who were the Greeks and the Thracians?
and why there is a big I2a Near Messopotamia?
do you understand that Greeks and Troyan speak similar languge as also Lation?


Dropion(250 BC - 230 BC) was an ancient Paeonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonian)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropion#cite_note-0)king, son of Leon of Paionia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_of_Paionia).

Dropion or Driopas or Δριοψ was a paeonian king that took place in OLYMPIC GAMES AS GREEK AND HAS A STATUE IN OLYMPIA
also his grand fathers Lycceius -Lykeias Aytoleon and Aristos

do you understand that all these names are Greek
Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper
Lykeias means wolf -man
Aytoleon means kings of lions
Aristos means perfect
Agis Dorian name means Leader in Dorian Greek (achaic aga or achas)
Patraeus or Patreos means according to Father - Fathers Glory and Pride
Pigres means fists
Pigmaleon means Boxer (fists of Lion)
kotys Greek kothour-os means tough Kotyora(city) means tough tower guard

Paeoni or Paeople means People - Nation
Doberes means local people the native people that lived Before (endo-Feron->ndo-Beren)
(endo = ovde = tosk = tuk Feron or Veron means old, pure traditional ex city GRVeria BGBeroia SYRIA Berea
modern Greek Ntopeoi or Dopei (Dobei)

learn Thracian and Greek and you realize more


and watch that
Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIAKES (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people) also Serres

SeRoPaia-Kes ->> SRP-KS or SeRP-eS
the huns were named Balkar
but the Romans name the Odrysse Thracian Vulkans -Bulkans Before the invasion of Asparuch
and the area north and east of Mt Haimos (Hemos) Vulkania - Bulkania
Bulk Means the same same with Greek Thrax (Thrax means Lord of Fire, Vulkan is the metallurgy with Fire)
the Vulks of Hephaisto
probably the Iron age in peninsula started at todays Bulgaria's area of Ferruginous lands (near Dzumagia) west of Mt Haimos

Although Balkan is a Turkish word

DejaVu
watch the names
George Gr Γεωργιος Georgios
Serbian Georgevic Greek Georgeadis vic=v+i+t+s -> (v+t=d) +i+s ->dis Nominative case
Bulg Georgiev Greek Georgiou v->ou or u possesive case
Female Georgieva Greek Georgiena v->n Female

Tyrrshenian language (sub-saharan :grin:)
mother language of many

Elias2
05-02-11, 05:37
FYROM = Titostan

Garrick
05-02-11, 10:59
DejaVU

one word SCHIZOPHRENEIA

Greek Makedonians migrating from South-East olymp to north
from the cityof Herakleia (Hercules) and Dion north

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9a/PieriaPieresExpulsionMap.jpg



WHAT IS THAT?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonian_language

The Paeonian language is the poorly attested language of the ancient Paeonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonia_%28kingdom%29), whose kingdom once stretched north of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon) into Dardania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Europe%29) and in earlier times into southwestern Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace).

Modern linguists are uncertain on the classification of Paeonian, due to the extreme scarcity of materials we have on this language. On one side are Wilhelm Tomaschek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Tomaschek) and Paul Kretschmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kretschmer), who claim it belonged to the Illyrian family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages), and on the other side is Dimiter Dečev (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Dimiter_De%C4%8Dev&action=edit&redlink=1), who claims affinities with Thracian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language).

Stoboi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stobi) (nowadays Gradsko (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gradsko)), name of a city, from *stob(h) (cf. Old Prussian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussian) stabis "rock", Old Church Slavonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic) stoboru, "pillar", Old English stapol, "post", Ancient
Greek stobos, "scolding, bad language");


WHAT IS THIS????????????????

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Paeonians.png

Centuries later under Diocletian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diocletian), Paeonia and Pelagonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagonia) formed a province called Macedonia Secunda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_Secunda) or Macedonia Salutaris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_Salutaris), belonging to the Praetorian prefecture of Illyricum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Praetorian_prefecture_of_Illyricum). By AD 400, however, the Paeonians had lost their identity, and the term Paeonia was rendered a mere geographic identifier.

Macedonia Secunda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_Secunda) NOT MAKEDONIA PRIMERA

WHO IS THIS???????

The Cambridge ancient history The Cambridge Ancient History, Martin Percival Charlesworth, ISBN 0-521-85073-8 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0521850738), 978-0-521-85073-5 Volume 4 of Persia, Greece and the Western Mediterranean, C. 525 to 479 B.C, John Boardman,page 252,"The Paeonians were the earlier owners of some of these mines, but after their defeat in the coastal sector they maintained their independence in the mainland and coined large denominations in the upper Strymon and the Upper Axius area in the names of the Laeaei and the Derrones"

The Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0140449086),2003,page 315, "... was that a number of Paeonian tribes - the Siriopaeones, Paeoplae, ...

he Histories (Penguin Classics) by Herodotus, John M. Marincola, and Aubery de Selincourt,ISBN 0-14-044908-6 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0140449086),2003,page 452,"... Then he passed through the country of the Doberes and Paeoplae (Paeonian tribes living north of Pangaeum), and continued in a ..."


Paeonian Kings


Agis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agis_%28Paeonian%29) ? – 359 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/359_BC)
Lycceius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycceius)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-18) 356 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/356_BC) - 340 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/340_BC)
Patraus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patraus)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-19) 340 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/340_BC) - 315 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/315_BC)
Audoleon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audoleon)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-20) son of Patraus 315 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/315) - 285 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/285_BC)
Ariston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariston_of_Paionia)[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-21) 286 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/286) - 285 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/285_BC) son of Audoleon
Leon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_of_Paionia)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-ReferenceA-22) 278 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/278_BC) - 250 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/250_BC)
Dropion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropion)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Paeonian_kings#cite_note-ReferenceA-22) son of Leon 250 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/250_BC) - 230 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/230_BC)
Bastareus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bastareus) ? - ? BC
In the Iliad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad), Asteropaios (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ἀστεροπαῖος; Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): Asteropaeus) was a leader of the Trojan-allied Paeonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians) along with fellow warrior Pyraechmes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyraechmes). Asteropaios was the son of Pelagon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelagon), who was the son of the river god Axios (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axios_River) and the mortal woman Periboia, daughter of Akessamenos (Greek: Ἀκεσσάμενος). Asteropaios was a newcomer to the war at the start of the Iliad; he had only been in Troy for less than two weeks.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteropaios#cite_note-0)

The name Asteropaios is Still in Greek Makedonian names of Armani people

Pyraechmes (Πυραίχμης) was, along with Asteropaeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asteropaeus), a leader of the Paeonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians) in the Trojan War (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War). He came from the city of Amydon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amydon). Although Homer mentions Pyraechmes as the leader of the Paeonians early on in the Iliad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad), in the Trojan Catalogue (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_Catalogue), Pyraechmes plays a minor role compared to the more illustrious Asteropaeus, a later arrival to the front. Unlike Asteropaeus, Homer does not provide a pedigree for Pyraechmes (although Dictys Cretensis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dictys_Cretensis) says his father was Axius - also the name of a river in Paeonia). Pyraechmes was killed in battle by Patroclus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patroclus): dressed in Achilles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles)' armor, Patroclus routed the panicked Trojans, and the first person he killed was Pyraechmes.

Langarus (died 335 BC), king of the Agrianians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrianians), was a contemporary of Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great) (336–323 BC), with whom he ingratiated himself even before the death of Philip II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon), previous king of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon). He rendered Alexander important services shortly after his accession, in his expedition against the Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria) and Taulantians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulanti), when the Autariatae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autariatae) were preparing to attack him on his march. Langarus by an invasion of their territory prevented them from carrying their purpose into effect. Alexander conferred on him the most distinguished marks of his regard and favour, and promised him his half-sister Cynane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynane) in marriage; but Langarus died soon after his return home.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langarus#cite_note-arr_1.5-0)




Arrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrian), Anabasis Alexandri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anabasis_Alexandri), i. 5 (http://websfor.org/alexander/arrian/book1a.asp)
When Eucharistus was archon at Athens, the Romans elected as consuls Quintus Servilius and Quintus Genucius. During their term of office Philip sent ambassadors to Athens and persuaded the assembly to make peace with him on the ground that he abandoned for all time any claim to Amphipolis.2 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Diod.+16.4&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0084#note2) [2] Now that he was relieved of the war with the Athenians and had information that the king of the Paeonians, Agis, was dead, he conceived that he had the opportunity to attack the Paeonians. Accordingly, having conducted an expedition into Paeonia and defeated the barbarians in a battle, he compelled the tribe to acknowledge allegiance to the Macedonians.

Diodorus Siculus


kausia or Beret (Francais)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f7/Antialcidas_Indo_Greek_coin.jpg

Depictions of the kausia can be found on a variety of coins and statues found from the Mediterranean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean) to the Greco-Bactrian kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Bactrian_kingdom) and the Indo-Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Greeks) in northwestern India (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/India). A modern descendant may be the pakul (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakul) from the mountains of Afghanistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afghanistan) and Pakistan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan).



The name 'Skudra' was probably Phrygian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language) for the homeland, later called Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace), which the Phrygians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygians) had left in migrating to Asia (See Bryges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges)). The peoples of the satrapy were named in c. 492 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/492_BC) as three : The Saka (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saka) Paradraya, meaning Sacae (a general name for Scythian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythian)-type people) beyond the sea, probably the Getae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Getae), who resembled the Scythians in customs and equipment; the Skudra themselves, mainly Thracians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians); and Yauna Takabara (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Yauna_Takabara&action=edit&redlink=1) or Ionians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionians) with a shield-like hat. The last were mentioned also on glazed bricks at the palace at Susa. Some scholars have supposed that the Sacae 'beyond the sea' were Scythian peoples of the Crimea whom Darius had subjugated, but it seems improbable that Persia did hold that area, and that if she had it was assigned to Skudra rather than to the territories in Georgia, centred on Tbilisi. Envoys from Skudra bringing tribute carried two javelins, a long knife and a small round shield, which were characteristic of Thracian troops later (See Pls. Vol., p1,.40 XIX.). The Greek-speaking people with the shield-like hat were the Macedones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedones), renowned for wearing the sun hat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_hat), as Alexander I of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon) did on his fine coins from 478 B.C . The Greek-speaking citizens of the colonial city states on the seaboard were not mentioned; nor did they wear a sun-hat.The Persepolis Fortification Archive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persepolis_Fortification_Archive) has numerous references to workers from Skudra and the most obvious candidates for Europeans working in some numbers deep within the Persian empire are the Paionians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonians) whom Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) makes so much of in his narrative


Any similarity of Skydra skodra ???????

or now do you understand that
Fyrom's "SFATI" is PERSIAN WORD????????????

whatch the names
cotys
kotys

watch the Sinopean cities
In the 8th century BCE the city of Cotyora was founded in this area - one of a string of colonies along the Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea) coast established by the ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) Aegean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_Islands) city of Miletos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miletos). The city of Ordu was established in the 15th century to serve as an Ottoman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) military center and headquarters.

Now do you understand who were the Greeks and the Thracians?
and why there is a big I2a Near Messopotamia?
do you understand that Greeks and Troyan speak similar languge as also Lation?


Dropion(250 BC - 230 BC) was an ancient Paeonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeonian)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dropion#cite_note-0)king, son of Leon of Paionia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leon_of_Paionia).

Dropion or Driopas was a paeonian king that took p[lace in OLYMPIC GAMES AS GREEK AND HAS A STATUE IN OLYMPIA
also his grand fathers Lycceius -Lykeias Aytoleon and Aristos

do you understand that all these names are Greek
Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper
Lykeias means wolf -man
Aytoleon means kings of lions
Aristos means perfect
Agis Dorian name means Leader in Dorian Greek
Patraeus or Patreos means according to Father - Fathers Glory and Pride
Pigres means fists
Pigmaleon means Boxer (fists of Lion)
kotys Greek kothor-os means tough Kotyora(city) means tough tower guard

Paeoni or Paeople means People - Nation
Doberes means local people the native people that lived Before (endo-Feron->ndo-Beren)
(endo = ovde = tosk = tuk Feron or Veron means old, pure traditional ex city GRVeria BGBeroia SYRIA Berea
modern Greek Ntopeoi or Dopei (Dobei)

learn Thracian and Greek and you realize more

and watch that
Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIKES

SiRoPaiaKes ->> SRPKS ->> Srpski (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people)
the huns were named Balkar
but the Romans name the Odrysse Thracian Vulkans -Bulkans Before the invasion of Asparuch
and the area north and east of Mt Haimos (Hemos) Vulkania - Bulkania
Bulk Means the same same with Greek Thrax (Thrax means Lord of Fire, Vulkan is the metallurgy with Fire)
the Vulks of Hephaistos
probably the Iron age in peninsula started at todays Bulgaria's area of Ferrus lands (near Dzumagia) west of Mt Haimos

Iapetoc
Northwest of the boundaries of ancient (Doric) Macedonia were the Illyrians (Albanians ancestors).

But I think that is near the northeast must have been some I2a population.

What do you think whether I2a have been Paeonians or other tribes and who?

how yes no 2
05-02-11, 14:59
watch Fyrom AT Makedonian kingdom times
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Paeonians.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f2/Paeonians.png
now HOW YES NO
do you understand????


Can Paeonians be same people as Pannoni(ans)? e.g. I2a2 proto-south Slavs

Because Pannoni did live in most of Illyria in time of Strabo...
read what Strabo says about Illyria....

it seems that Illyria was depopulated by Dacians in their war against Celtic Boii
and that it was ressetled by Pannonians...


I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
...
People formerly very powerful are extinct, or were reduced to the lowest condition, as the Boii and Scordisci among the Galatæ; the Autariatæ, Ardiæi, and Dardanii, among the Illyrians; and the Triballi among the Thracians. They first declined in consequence of disputes amongst themselves, but were finally prostrated by wars with the Macedonians and Romans.
.....
. The whole mountainous tract from the recess of the Adriatic bay to the Rhizonic gulf,17 and to the territory of the Ardiæi, intervening between the sea and Pannonia, forms the coast of Illyria.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter= 5&highlight=

area of Illyria for Strabo stretches to Alps and Danube..its sea cosat is from Rhizonic bay (bay of Kotor in northwest Montenegro) to recess of Adriatic sea - this is area of ex-Yugoslavia.... and has nothing to do with Albania...

now he claims that Illyria was depopulated by Dacians, it was also depopulated by wars with Macedonians and Romans... and that in those wars people like Boii, Scordisci, Triballi, Dardani has disappeared or almost disappeared..... but Pannoni are there, and living in most of Illyria (or according to his description roughly ex-Yugoslavia)...




LOOK THE GENETIC SIMILARITY OF FYROM AND SERBIA AND BOSNIA
THE FYROM IS MORE SERBIAN THAN SERBIA
WHY? BECAUSE IN TESTS IS A BIG ALBANIAN E-V13 WHICH IS FROM ALBANIAN MINORITY
Albanians are 30% of population and have 45% E-V13
so if you make the mathematical references then you see that Fyrom is Near 40% I2a
do you read my posts?
there is no need for calculations as there was YDNA research that did separate ethnic Macedonians and ethnic Albanians....

http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf

sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343


ethnic Macedonians are distinguished by I2a2 group same one that is dominant in Serbia, Bosnia, Hercegovina, Croatia and even Slovenia, while Albanians are distinguished by haplogroups E, J2b2 and I1... R1a and G having similar spread in Albanians and Macedonians is indication that it is an earlier spread...which is in correspondence with extra high R1a in Greek Macedonia... in other words Ancient Macedonians were probably dominantly R1a and G people...

R1b is significantly higher in Albanians, but is present in all groups meaning that probably Dardanians already had some R1b (as other Thracians did) and that Roman's invaders brought more of it (as Vlach's tend to show more R1b in south Balkan)


same as Serbia and almost Bosnia
same basic ingredient - I2a2
which as I indicated on many places does correlate with location and directions of spread of early Slavs
(e.g. look at http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=364837&postcount=78 )

early Slavs are according to Jordanes origin from populous race of Veneti that is now scattered among many tribes chief of them being Sclaveni and Antes...



in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html


Now about Culture and Language are more connected with the medieval Western Bulgarian Culture and Language
The Truth is that many times I was wondering if I2a has to do with ancient Thracians
But Many times I come back from Thoukidides when says that Athens spoke Tyrrshenian before Greek
the fact is that Thracians ruled upon many cultures or learn Language from J2
(Greco-Aryan approach not Kurgan-Hypothesis)
Tyhrsenian /Taurisci/Thracian/Etruscan/Theresh(sea peoples)... can those be about tribal names and peoples of same origin? also Theresh sea peoples are close relatives to Sherdana sea peoples whose name is known to be origin of name of Serbonian bog/Sirbonis/Serbonis lake in Egypt...

now, look at Taurus on map of world known to Hebrews...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Noahsworld_map.png/402px-Noahsworld_map.png

Etruscans have moved from Lydia (or its close neighburhood) to Italy...


The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

this event we can even date as we know that in 1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

btw. same division of nation in two parts with one part moving to live far away, we have in much more recent times, story of settlement of Serbs on Balkan, as recorded in work of Byzantine emperor...

Etruscans also called themselves Raseni


In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization

perhaps pure coincidence but later Serbs were called Rasani and their medieval state was Raska... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs



Crete spain italy the bull is Toro or tavro or tauro
Athens is BOLOS Thessaly Makedonia is BOLinthros
Bulgarian Fyrom is BOL
Serbian Croatian HUngarian is BIK
but the calf is
Crete ThessalianEast Makedonian Vodali VIDALI (itali Vitalli)
Aromanian-armani, albanian is Damali Demi
Athens Central-West Makedonia Moschos Mouskar
Bulgarian Fyrom Serbia Ucraine Telec

this can be related to tribal name of Taurisci...

by checking vocabulary of modern european people amongst the words for bull we find:
portugese - boi (as in Boii)
danish - tyr (as in Tyrshenians)
finish - roska (as in russians)



this bull identification may have to do with people from that stock e.g. Sherdana carrying horns on their helmets.... same custom may be origin of name for calling some people "ant people" or Eneti/Veneti...

in that sense word "bik" may be related to Viking
which indeed shows that language spoken by south Slavs origins from more northern areas, that is from areas of Viking influence (I don't say they were Vikings, but that horns issue may be origin of word "bik")...


and watch that
Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIKES

SiRoPaiaKes ->> SRPKS ->> Srpski (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people)
the huns were named Balkar

yes, this correlates with some ideas that I had about origin of Serb tribal name...

Sebar - was in medieval period in Serbia word used for caste of agricultural people...
Srp/serp - is slavic word meaning "sickle"...sickle was primary tool and symbol of agricultural people..... even 4 'S' on Serbian coat of arms are often called "sickles".....

btw. medieval Russian primary chronic indicates that early Slavs lived in areas besides Danube where now Hungarian and Bulgarian lands lie...which again coincides with I2a2 spreading along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia...


After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

and again spread along Danube is location that fits Seneca's mention of Serians in Europe... as they are the ones who dare to cross over frozen Danube.... and also the ones who ruled over scattered Scythians (Dacians in some translations)...


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Serians are likely proto-Serbs as Serians in Caspian highlands who live unguarded from Sarmatians do match position of Serboi tribe and I2a2 is elevated in spread from that area to Kuban area of northeast coast from Black sea where Siraces (thought to be same as Serboi) lived...

In fact, I do wonder about word Seres in Greek history records.... as Serians of north west China who produce silk are also called Seres... Seres live in arc from India to China... and this is where we find Pasthun Sarbans today and some haplogroup I that separates them from surrounding tribes that do not have haplogroup I.... Serians of Red sea are about Sabeans/Sheba known for their legendary queen of Sheba who was also called Makeda in south part of her country... hence name Macedonians for some Serian/proto-Serb related people living south from core od Serians...

in ancient Greece there is story of Seres living very long.......
Pliny (23 AD – August 25, 79) quotes Aristotle that there are also Seres who live above mount Athos ( in Greece) who live up to 140 years...



Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

Seres dwell upon mount Athos....



do you understand that all these names are Greek
Driopas = Druid also nation in Thessaly means Oak worshiper
early Slavs were oak worshipers...
Druid is not Greek word...druid is word that has PIE origin and literally means persons able to "see in tree"
in slavic, corresponding words are: drvo (tree) + vid (vision)
this is related to old Slavic religion where


A fairly typical cosmological concept among speakers of Indo-European languages, that of the World Tree, is also present in Slavic mythology. It is either an oak tree, or some sort of pine tree. The mythological symbol of the World Tree was a very strong one, and survived throughout the Slavic folklore for many centuries after Christianisation. Three levels of the universe were located on the tree. Its crown represented the sky, the realm of heavenly deities and celestial bodies, whilst the trunk was the realm of mortals. They were sometimes combined together in opposition to the roots of the tree, which represented the underworld, the realm of the dead.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology


According to the Book of Veles, Slavic religion recognizes three realms: Yav, Prav, and Nav, Yav being the material world, Nav the immaterial, and Prav being the laws that govern them. The emphasis on the three realms is particularly characteristic for the Slavic neopaganists that draw on the Book of Veles.
Main symbol of ancient Slavic cosmogonic ideas was the World Tree. Slavs imagined that all three realms are vertically situated on an gigantic oak tree, that holds the whole Universe. In its crown was Slavic Heaven/paradise, so called Svarga, residence of Svarog, or Iriy. At the oak's trunk was the world of living creatures, the reality - Yav. In the oak's roots was Hell, residence of Chernobog, Morena, and Zmey.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Slavic_religion

how yes no 2
05-02-11, 21:19
and watch that
Siro-Paionians or SIROPAIAKES (means people of godess Sirris (agricultural people) also Serres

SeRoPaia-Kes ->> SRP-KS or SeRP-eS


who is goddess Sirris?
all I could find is

The Mesopotamian goddess Siris was the patron of beer who is conceived of as a demon, which is not necessarily evil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siris_(goddess)

and lot of links related to Isis...

is Siris same goddess as Isis?
that would make sense

this is representation of Isis
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Egypt.IsisHorus.01.png

and this is Sherdana sea peoples, the one whose name is known to be origin of name Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt....

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples14.jpg

now horns and circle between horns that Sherdana have on helmets can be same symbol as the one that Isis is wearing...

btw.

Following the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great the worship of Isis spread throughout the Graeco-Roman world.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis


Serapis or Sarapis was a Graeco-Egyptian god. He was invented during the 3rd century BC at the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm. The god was depicted as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian trappings, and combined iconography from a great many cults, signifying both abundance and resurrection. His cultus was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings, who also built a splendid Serapeum in Alexandria.
...
Under Ptolemy Soter, efforts were made to integrate Egyptian religion with that of their Hellenic rulers. Ptolemy's policy was to find a deity that should win the reverence alike of both groups, despite the curses of the Egyptian priests against the gods of the previous foreign rulers (i.e Set who was lauded by the Hyksos). Alexander the Great had attempted to use Amun for this purpose, but he was more prominent in Upper Egypt, and not as popular with those in Lower Egypt, where the Greeks had stronger influence. The Greeks had little respect for animal-headed figures, and so a Greek-style anthromorphic statue was chosen as the idol, and proclaimed as the equivalent of the highly popular Apis.[2] It was named Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis), which became Serapis, and was said to be Osiris in full, rather than just his Ka (life force).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis


Osiris was the mythological father of the god Horus, whose conception is described in the Myth of Osiris and Isis, a central myth in ancient Egyptian belief. The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. Isis later gave birth to Horus. As such, since Horus was born after Osiris' resurrection, Horus became thought of as a representation of new beginnings and the vanquisher of the evil Set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

look at symbols depicted in this representation of Serapis
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Serapis.JPG

this motive of crescent/halfmoon and star is repeated is early coat of arms in Croats, Bulgarians, Illyrians, kingdom of Yugoslavia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/17/Coat_of_arms_of_Bulgaria_%28by_Vincenco_Coronelli% 29.svg/500px-Coat_of_arms_of_Bulgaria_%28by_Vincenco_Coronelli% 29.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/58/Coat_of_arms_of_the_Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia.svg/425px-Coat_of_arms_of_the_Kingdom_of_Yugoslavia.svg.png

moon itself is symbol of Isis

how yes no 2
05-02-11, 22:47
now, back to link between Serapis and Taurisci/Theresh/Etruscan/Thracians....

Serapis is invented god... he is merge of Osiris and Apis
Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis)

God Apis is about bull worship, which is link to Taurisci...

In Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh), was a bull-deity worshipped in the Memphis region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(Egyptian_mythology)


From the earliest times, the bull was lunar in Mesopotamia (its horns representing the crescent moon).[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)


The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)


The Bull was a central theme in the Minoan civilization, with bull heads and bull horns used as symbols in the Knossos palace. Minoan frescos and ceramics depict the bull-leaping ritual in which participants of both sexes vaulted over bulls by grasping their horns. See also "Minotaur and The Bull of Crete" (below) for a later incarnation to the Minoan Bull.
...
For the Greeks, the bull was strongly linked to the Bull of Crete: Theseus of Athens had to capture the ancient sacred bull of Marathon (the "Marathonian bull") before he faced the Bull-man, the Minotaur (Greek for "Bull of Minos"), whom the Greeks imagined as a man with the head of a bull at the center of the labyrinth.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

Rethymnon on Crete has 22.7% of haplogroup I which is well above Greece standards (comparable to Agrinion and Lemna and bellow only of the level in Serrai / Serres (36%))

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

how yes no 2
06-02-11, 00:43
now, I find very peculiar high haplogroup I in Agrinion (23.8%)

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

so I wondered who are these people


According to mythology, it was built by king Agrios, son of Portheus[2] and a great grandson of Aetolos. It was destroyed by Cassander in 314 BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrinion

according to years, Cassander is Alexander the Great?
anyway, origin is from Aetolus


Aetolus (Greek: Αἰτωλός) was, in Greek mythology, a son of Endymion, grandson of Deucalion, and the nymph Neïs, or Iphianassa.[1][2] According to Pausanias, his mother was called Asterodia, Chromia, or Hyperippe.[3] He was married to Pronoe, by whom he had two sons, Pleuron and Calydon. His brothers were Paeon, Epeius, and others.[4][5][6] His father compelled him and his two brothers Paeon and Epeius to decide by a contest at Olympia as to which of them was to succeed him in his kingdom of Elis. Epeius gained the victory, and occupied the throne after his father, and on his demise he was succeeded by Aetolus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolus_(son_of_Endymion)


Paeon (Ancient Greek: Παίων, gen.: Παίονος) in Greek mythology was a son of Endymion, king of Elis, and brother of Epeius, Aetolus, and Eurycyda; from whom the district of Paeonia, on the Axius river in Macedonia, was believed to have derived its name.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeon_(son_of_Endymion)

so, these people are related to Paeonians (and perhaps also to Pannonians?)



In Greek mythology, Selene (Greek Σελήνη [selɛ́ːnɛː] 'moon'; Doric Σελάνα; Aeolic Σελάννα) was an archaic lunar deity and the daughter of the Titans Hyperion and Theia.[1] In Roman mythology, the moon goddess is called Luna, Latin for "moon".
...
Apollonius of Rhodes (4.57ff) refers to Selene, "daughter of Titan", who "madly" loved a mortal, the handsome hunter or shepherd—or, in the version Pausanias knew, a king— of Elis, named Endymion, from Asia Minor. In other Greek references to the myth, he was so handsome that Selene asked Zeus to grant him eternal sleep so that he would stay forever young and thus would never leave her: her asking permission of Zeus reveals itself as an Olympian transformation of an older myth: Cicero (Tusculanae Disputationes) recognized that the moon goddess had acted autonomously. Alternatively, Endymion made the decision to live forever in sleep. Every night, Selene slipped down behind Mount Latmus near Miletus to visit him.[6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selene

hm, moon goddess pops up again....

but I am not convinced that Agrinion haplogroup I is related to Aetolos...


The peoples known as the Curetes and the Leleges originally inhabited the country, but at an early period Greeks from Elis, led by the mythical eponym Aetolus, set up colonies. Dionysius of Halicarnassus mentions that Curetes was the old name of the Aetolians and Leleges the old name of the Locrians.[1] The Aetolians took part in the Trojan War, under their king Thoas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolia


Homer, in the Iliad, mentions the Curetes (Ancient Greek: Κουρῆτες) as a legendary people who took part in the quarrel over the Calydonian Boar.[1] Strabo mentioned that the Curetes were assigned multiple identities and places of origin (i.e. either Acarnanians, Aetolians, from Crete, or from Euboea). However, he clarified the identity of the Curetes and regarded them solely as Aetolians.[2] Dionysius of Halicarnassus mentioned the Curetes as the old name of the Aetolians.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curetes_(tribe)


The Korybantes (Ancient Greek: Κορύβαντες) were the crested dancers who worshipped the Phrygian goddess Cybele with drumming and dancing. They are also called the Kurbantes in Phrygia, and Corybants in an older English transcription. The Kuretes were the nine dancers who venerate Rhea, the Cretan counterpart of Cybele, Mother of the Gods. A fragment from Strabo, book vii,[1] gives a sense of the roughly analogous character of these male confraternities, and the confusion rampant among those not initiated:
Many assert that the gods worshipped in Samothrace as well as the Kurbantes and the Korybantes and in like manner the Kouretes and the Idaean Daktyls are the same as the Kabeiroi, but as to the Kabeiroi they are unable to tell who they are"
...
Kouretes also presided over the infancy of Dionysus, another god who was born as a babe, and of Zagreus, a Cretan child of Zeus, or child-doublet of Zeus. The wild ecstasy of their cult can be compared to the female Maenads who followed Dionysus.
...
There were several "tribes" of Korybantes, including the Cabeiri, the Korybantes Euboioi, the Korybantes Samothrakioi. Hoplodamos and his Gigantes were counted among Korybantes, and Titan Anytos was considered a Kourete.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuretes

Kuretes might be proto-Croat related...

iapetoc
06-02-11, 04:11
slowly

Garrick you are wright Druid is a IE word so it can be international

but Driopas = Dru + ope Δρυ+οπη οπη = hole

about I2a

As I said before many times I believed that I2a was the Thrasian,
but many times i come back

The I2a in balkans has to do mainly with Central, North, Thracian tribes

I don't know if the percentage in south balkans was dominant or gathered

But i m sure that is fully connected to Northern Thracian tribes
which later became the south-slavic and the Romanians
By what I know ancient Thracians expand until and far of Moldova
they are known also as The sweat water culture cause they lived near Rivers,


yes Garrick West of Makedonia are the Epirotans and the Illyrians
North-west the Illyro-Thracians
North and North East (west from Bardar until east of Strymon Mt Haimos) are the Paioni
now about the Paioni if were carriers if I2a I still don't know if it was local or a sum
cause by what I know Serbians came very south at about 700-1000 AD
meaning that I2a was either almost 30% from the paioni from ancient times.
or less and was ingreased by Serbians at about Date

the Greeks at Ottoman occupation
said that North of Monaster (Bitola) was foreign land of Arnaut (Muslim Albanians)
the Bardar river around Skopje and north was the Serbia also in areas of Florina (Lerin)
were serbo-slavic
and the lands around Mt Borras (Kayimak Tsalan) south of bardar river until Strymon were the Bugari people
Bugari cause they were not clear Bulgarians as in Veliko Ternovo,

also exists the Armani people who are a culture of Roman occupation.
The Armani where pushed by Italians in WW2 to make kingdoms like the Koutsouk Vallach,
a % of Armani denies the Romanian-Wallachian approach
and accepts the Villach Vlach approach
according to that they were Roman citizens following Roman officer and Squires.
like when King Otto came to Greece brought 150 Families from Germany
When a Big Roman came to Balkan to take control of the land was given by senator
Brought many workers and soldiers and Villagers (Villaches)
In Byzantine they were also accepted cause Byzantine was East Roman Empire

How Yes No
at the times I speak
No Paioni are not Pannoni, probably
1. one of them was cut in Pre-ancient times,
2. or just a IE synnonym paeoni-paeople means people nation, probably Pannoni means the same or 'pastur' people (Greek god Pan) people who know to pastur food

Among them lived the Tribaldi tribe

when refer to Illyria must know what Illyria you describe

Illyria according Greeks history reaches Monte-Negro were Carnius Apollo lived
Above that is Adra Sea (Adrias ->Adriatic) and south is Ambra sea (Ambra sea = smooth sea, Adra sea = rough sea) and known lands north are Carnia
Illyricum is a Roman province that incudes also Dalmatia and Dinaric Alpes
now about
Illyrian tribes according Greeks lived South of Montenegro until Bardar river almost,
Illyrian tribes to Romans were also Thracian tribes, or semi-known J2 tribes or I2a tribes

to understand the approach you must also know the Greco-Aryan approach of IE language

for Example
Sparta dorian J2 God Carnios Apollo, Greek city Corinth, minor Asia Carian
Dinaric cities Carinthia Carni

the worship of Iapetus
Arcadians in Peloponese worship Iapetos -> Iapotos and the people Iapodes
meaning that in that area (unkown when for me), lived Iapetus worshipers of J2b
(proto-Tyrrshennian)
the above does not Mean that Iapodes were Greeks but they had some connection before times,
the genealogy of Illyrius gives 1 son Pannon
But arcadians also had a god Pan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_%28god%29

I 'm not sure but at the times i speak after 700 BC among pannoni and Paeoni were many tribes especially Tribaldi, so for me the connection at that times is only in Genetical Y-dna if Pannoni are I2a and not Cultural or Ethnical,
as I mentined before the I2a in some areas I dont know if it is Dominal or a sum of transfered populations

about your ethnic Macedonians? who do you mean?

about Tyrrshenian Thracian Tyrrhenian Troyennian
Look at Hebrew although Tharseis is son of Japheth Iayan people lived among Tharseis,
meaning that Thracians were before the king Thracian

the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis
some people connected with the Black sea disaster (cataclysm) when opened propontis,
After that Greeks Armenians and Persian speak same language
the Armenian stayed there and moved north and south
The Greeks (J2b) lived in west side and south in the Levant
the Greeks that moved went from land became Thracians
the Greeks that moved from sea became Cretans
Besides Homers Γραισοι Γ is 3rd as C so Craisoi -> ai=a+e Craesoi ss == tt Craetoi = Cretans
Γραισοι ->Craesoi -> Creek - Greek
that is why today in Greece is another part the Greece (region) and the nation and country is Hellas
by the above I don't claim That Thracians were Greeks but an analysis of Greco-Aryan

the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis is that I and J lived same area and later split
the I went north of Black sea and went west (Persian-speaking) ss=z r= w
also Persians went East to India
and Greeks (Tyrrshenian) went west from sea (Cyclades -Minoan) and land (Thracians troy etc)
the R people is connected with a Lapi myth according to which once the white people were one and ice age cut them to 2

the west branch Greeks (Thracians) appears before 4000 in cyclades having ships
worshiping Iapetus and connects with Egypt and Phoenicians (Phoenicians and Tyrrshenians were once 1)

Troy was a city that speak Tyrrshenian and alliance of Haimos Thracians
while Greco-Thracians need the roads to North Thracians and caucasus,
that is why for many scientists the Troyan war is almost a family war

that is also why Sappeans Thracians had Phoenician system and alliances
(lemnean staele)


Godess SirriS is a Ancient Godess of Agriculture
Sirris was worshiped by Proto-Greeks and South Thracians (earlsy symbol was the millet) later the wheat
Later the Greeks named her Demeter (Di+mater =Divine Mother)
Demeter as Isis had a daughter not son as Isis,
Pershephone, six months underworld six months upper world (wheat germinate, and goat Breeding, high mountains to pens)
also Pershephone has to do with Thracian religion (Orpheus, Cavirian Mysteries)
also with Greek Eleysinian Mysteries
Christianity Despoina (name of Myriam) is the Arcadian name
also Dionysos - Christ etc
so Sirris is the ancient name (Perso-Thracian) of Godess Demeter
There are many books that proves that Christianity and Mithras mysteries
and Dionysus worship have common origin

about the Moon and the star is the Megarean symbol religion
also Eleysina mysteries
also Byzantine city symbol

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/53/ARXAIO_NOMISMA_VIZANTIOY.jpg


now about the bull

I mentioned that cause
Bolos
Bol
Bo
Bolinthros
same BOL

but muschar and telec
meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos

Although the possibility of Telec is similar to sacrifice makes the word inner Fixed (by the speakers)
example bull fight in spain
tayrokathapsia in crete etc
A ceremony that follows the killing of the bull
in Greek is teleti and the meat telesforo
a simmilar thracian-phrygian word probably name the meat of the bull teles
you can realize that by reading Paul to Corinthians about sacrificed meat
inner fixed is if telec comes from another word of the lingua
and is different from same speaking people
imported is if the word is from another lingua

iapetoc
06-02-11, 04:47
Dienekes (http://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970) said... >> The weak correlation between I and R1a throws a bit of a wrench in to the Greek-Slavic hypothesis.

I and R1a could have entered in Greece in medieval times, because they occur more frequently to the north of it, but they could also have been present in ancient times. Until their internal structure is better resolved we are really not in a position to say much.


Now Understanding that The kurgan Hypothsis proves to be a myth,
The R1a did not brought IE language to Greece
Although the last possibiliy according Kurgan Hypothesis is that Greeks took Language from Hettits

how yes no 2
06-02-11, 13:29
slowly
As I said before many times I believed that I2a was the Thrasian,
but many times i come back

The I2a in balkans has to do mainly with Central, North, Thracian tribes

I don't know if the percentage in south balkans was dominant or gathered

But i m sure that is fully connected to Northern Thracian tribes
which later became the south-slavic and the Romanians
By what I know ancient Thracians expand until and far of Moldova
they are known also as The sweat water culture cause they lived near Rivers,

According to Russian primary chronicle that I have quoted in previous post, Slavs did live along Danube in Bulgaria and Hungary (Romania is not mentioned) and also were Noricans...
Noricans would be Veneti related people, probably later known as Vindelici and maybe some other tribes...
are there any clues for possible kinship between Thracians and Pannoni?


yes Garrick West of Makedonia are the Epirotans and the Illyrians
North-west the Illyro-Thracians
North and North East (west from Bardar until east of Strymon Mt Haimos) are the Paioni
now about the Paioni if were carriers if I2a I still don't know if it was local or a sum
much of I2a2 did come with Slavs
but it could have been there as well...
thing that R1a is equally spread in Albanians from Macedonia, Slavic Macedonians and Serbs, and much less in Montenegro...is clear indicator that no R1a came with Slavs.... higher R1a in Greek Macedonia than in neighbouring Slavic lands is indicator that R1a is due to ancient Macedonioans
besides hotspot of R1a in south Balkan has clear shape of ancient Macedonia

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg


cause by what I know Serbians came very south at about 700-1000 AD
meaning that I2a was either almost 30% from the paioni from ancient times.
or less and was ingreased by Serbians at about Date

I think that all early Slavs were dominantly I2a2 and there were Slav tribes settling in Macedonia and Greece prior to expansion ofSerbs...




a % of Armani denies the Romanian-Wallachian approach
and accepts the Villach Vlach approach
according to that they were Roman citizens following Roman officer and Squires.
like when King Otto came to Greece brought 150 Families from Germany
When a Big Roman came to Balkan to take control of the land was given by senator
Brought many workers and soldiers and Villagers (Villaches)
In Byzantine they were also accepted cause Byzantine was East Roman Empire
Vlachs on Balkan origin from different people... they are not same people ethnically, just their language is the same.... their origin is from settled Roman people (which are often romanized people from other parts of Roman empire) and local romanized people...Vlachs in Greece and Vlachs in Romania do not have common origin....



How Yes No
at the times I speak
No Paioni are not Pannoni, probably
1. one of them was cut in Pre-ancient times,
2. or just a IE synnonym paeoni-paeople means people nation, probably Pannoni means the same or 'pastur' people (Greek god Pan) people who know to pastur food
it does sound alike...


Among them lived the Tribaldi tribe
Tribali are Thracians, right?



when refer to Illyria must know what Illyria you describe

Illyria according Greeks history reaches Monte-Negro were Carnius Apollo lived
Above that is Adra Sea (Adrias ->Adriatic) and south is Ambra sea (Ambra sea = smooth sea, Adra sea = rough sea) and known lands north are Carnia
Illyricum is a Roman province that incudes also Dalmatia and Dinaric Alpes
now about
Illyrian tribes according Greeks lived South of Montenegro until Bardar river almost,


through...Greek Illyria is Albania
Roman province of Illyria does not have much to do with Albania or Illyrians...
somehow Romans made confusion (probably deliberatelly) by calling everything the wrong name... (e.g. their Macedonia was centered north of real one, their Illyria was noth of real one, their Rhaetia included Vindelici...)...perhaps that was special tactics to assimilate people more easily....



Illyrian tribes to Romans were also Thracian tribes, or semi-known J2 tribes or I2a tribes
to understand the approach you must also know the Greco-Aryan approach of IE language

for Example
Sparta dorian J2 God Carnios Apollo, Greek city Corinth, minor Asia Carian
Dinaric cities Carinthia Carni

culture and haplogroup are not necesserily a match... as split in haplogroups happened much much earlier than split of PIE culture...

t
[QUOTE]he worship of Iapetus
Arcadians in Peloponese worship Iapetos -> Iapotos and the people Iapodes
meaning that in that area (unkown when for me), lived Iapetus worshipers of J2b
(proto-Tyrrshennian)
the above does not Mean that Iapodes were Greeks but they had some connection before times,
you tend to see J2b everywhere, but in exactly the region of Japoodes is in Maciamo's map big hole of J2
so if there is genetic connection between two, it may mean that Arcadians might not have been J2b but something else...


the genealogy of Illyrius gives 1 son Pannon
But arcadians also had a god Pan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_%28god%29
maybe Arcadians were I2a2? :)




about your ethnic Macedonians? who do you mean?
oops, sorry....I was talking of population of FYRM, so I said ethnic Albanians and ethnic Macedonians, I used ethnic to emphasize that the samples being divided by origin... I did not mean to infer that Greek Macedonians are not ethnic Macedonians...


about Tyrrshenian Thracian Tyrrhenian Troyennian
Look at Hebrew although Tharseis is son of Japheth Iayan people lived among Tharseis,
meaning that Thracians were before the king Thracian
I do not understand this...


the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis
some people connected with the Black sea disaster (cataclysm) when opened propontis,
After that Greeks Armenians and Persian speak same language
the Armenian stayed there and moved north and south
I think indoeuropean might have came to existance around Black sea (maybe also in Black sea area before disaster you mention)...most of Iranians and Indians got PIE from R1a invaders (e.g. Scythians...) who settled there in big numbers...


The Greeks (J2b) lived in west side and south in the Levant
the Greeks that moved went from land became Thracians
the Greeks that moved from sea became Cretans
I do not think Greeks were Thracians...
that makes no sense as ancient Greek sources never mention such a possibility...
besides language of Thrachians is known to be satem variant of IE, while Greek is centum.... Greeks and Thracians are completely unrelated... only reason you relate them is that big chunk of what is now north Greece was part of Thracian lands... of course there were Greek colonies on sea coast, but that is not Thrace



the Greco-Aryan Hypothesis is that I and J lived same area and later split
the I went north of Black sea and went west (Persian-speaking) ss=z r= w
also Persians went East to India
and Greeks (Tyrrshenian) went west from sea (Cyclades -Minoan) and land (Thracians troy etc)
actually, I think J2 were historical Aryans (see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26093)
haplogroup I branched of from IJ in nearby Persia



the R people is connected with a Lapi myth according to which once the white people were one and ice age cut them to 2
that makes sense to me...
but their settlements were centered differently than now... there is bulk of evidence that R1b settled west Europe from Asia (via Caucasus and Asia minor) much after ice age.... R1a might have been trapped in Balkan refuge...
as according to Klyosov it is much much older in Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia than in all other areas of the world together....



worshiping Iapetus and connects with Egypt and Phoenicians (Phoenicians and Tyrrshenians were once 1)
Phoenicans and Etruscans are related?
are you sure? can you check that claim?


Troy was a city that speak Tyrrshenian and alliance of Haimos Thracians
while Greco-Thracians need the roads to North Thracians and caucasus,
that is why for many scientists the Troyan war is almost a family war

that is also why Sappeans Thracians had Phoenician system and alliances
(lemnean staele)
who are exactly Sappeans Thracians?



Godess SirriS is a Ancient Godess of Agriculture
Sirris was worshiped by Proto-Greeks and South Thracians (earlsy symbol was the millet) later the wheat

Later the Greeks named her Demeter (Di+mater =Divine Mother)
Demeter as Isis had a daughter not son as Isis,

Pershephone, six months underworld six months upper world (wheat germinate, and goat Breeding, high mountains to pens)

also Pershephone has to do with Thracian religion (Orpheus, Cavirian Mysteries)
also with Greek Eleysinian Mysteries
Christianity Despoina (name of Myriam) is the Arcadian name
also Dionysos - Christ etc
so Sirris is the ancient name (Perso-Thracian) of Godess Demeter
There are many books that proves that Christianity and Mithras mysteries
and Dionysus worship have common origin

about the Moon and the star is the Megarean symbol religion
also Eleysina mysteries
also Byzantine city symbol

spread of same religions and symbols tells us about how cultures were related... which may indicate common origin but not necessarily does...



meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos
yes, but that is clear...
word "bik" came with Slavic settlement

what I responded with is attempt to see who were Taurisci (as Taurus = bull) and why.... to me it is logical that people who have horns on their helments are by their neighbours callled bulls or if the horns are more like insect antenas
than ants... in that sense word "bik" may be related to horn helmets of Vikings...

I believe that mythology stories very often reflect origin of people...

So, I find it curious that in Asia minor there was a myth of two bulls (which I translate with Taurisci people) called Seri and Hurri (day and night) who carried weather God....
we know that both Hurrians and Serians are mentioned as historic nations... and I do map Serians mentioned by Seneca to proto-Serbs and I know that some Croat people think that Hurrians were proto-Croats....
regarding wheather God... Greek Gods of winds Anemnoi are in latin language Venetoi... which is in fact tribal name of Veneti...
according to Jordanes early Slavs are part of populous race of Veneti...

among Anemnoi we have west wind Zephyros, and his son Carpus, which I did map to Serbs and Croats.... Zephyros is born in caves of Thrace...

btw. regarding possible link between Tracians and proto-Slavs
I do emphasize populous race.... Jordanes says early Slavs come from populous race of Veneti...
and somewhat before for ancient Greeks most populous race in area were Thracians...
extremely populous races do npot disappear without trace...they may change tribal names though...
Thracians spoke satem variant of IE, so you can't look for their offspring in Greeks, Italians, west Europe... only related languages are Slavic and Baltic languages and maybe even Albanian...but from most populous race, many people must origin...so I opt for Slavs.. and I do relate early Slavs with I2a2, same as I relate Veneti with it....
besides medieval Russian primary chronicle tells us that Slavs lived in Bulgaria and Hungary and in Noricum... but were pushed north with expand of Vlachs (that is Romans)

iapetoc
06-02-11, 15:24
How Yes No


your approach to Thracian Language is not clear

Vrygians speak same as Greeks, Paeoni also Pieri

if you search for Phrygian language you realize that they were Isotones and almost could be dialects

Greek (which also exhibits a high amount of isoglosses with Phrygian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language

how yes no 2
06-02-11, 15:40
How Yes No


your approach to Thracian Language is not clear

Vrygians speak same as Greeks, Paeoni also Pieri

if you search for Phrygian language you realize that they were Isotones and almost could be dialects

Greek (which also exhibits a high amount of isoglosses with Phrygian)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language

what's the relation between Phrygians and Thracians?
Phrygians origin from Bryges, not from Thracians...
Bryges lived in central Albania and west most FYR Macedonia and not in thrace

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

I thnk Bryges might have been R1b.... btw.I also think Frisians and name places such as Brugge might be reflections of same tribal name... and I think that they did also settle Paphlagonia that was emptied earlier when Pahplagonia Eneti were forced to move out... Eneti moved first to Thrace .... and a branch of them ended on Adriatic coast... and since Slavs are race of Veneti and do not have much R1b, I think that R1b spread to Paphlagonia with Bryges and perhaps also with later Celtic invasions...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/300px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

if language of Bryges was Greek alike, it just means that central Albania and westmost FYR Macedonia did speak Greek at time, which is not difficult to imagine...

and btw. link that you gave does not say that Phrygian was dialect of Greek, but that Plato did recognize some words... which is probably about PIE words plus some additional shared vocabulary due to living in proximity... text also indicates that it is considered to be closely related to Greek...now when you say considered, that's not a proof, but a theory... my guess is that it was Celtic language that was heavily influenced by Greek due to living in proximity of Greece during very long period...

iapetoc
06-02-11, 20:39
1rst stop seeing every where serbs and croats

Seri and Huri
are the Greek Sorokos (serokos) and OUrios
Sorokos comes from SE Africa (meltem)
maistros comes from NW dinaric
Ourios means Behind the direction
Our'a not O'ura = ταιλ

so huri and seri are not nations

about Vrygians and Bithyni were Thracians
as also
THOUKIDIDES says that Athenean spoke (Troyan)Tyrrshenian before koine
as also we know that Minoan Crete spoke Tyrsshenian

that approach has to do with I and J
I and J had the IE language and not R1b or R1a
Tyrrshenian Thyrrenean Thracian Troyan
Luwan Minoan Greek are the rest of that language

I gave you similarity of Crete and Latium

I inform you that Phoenician was the Language of Sappean Thracian,
Phrygians, and many other Tribes Before New Alphabet
In Crete we have a system that is even Before Phoenician
later discoveries in tooth of Hippopotamus shows the most Ancient calendar,
we know that Crete was after Cyclades which is one the most Ancient in the world 4000 BC
we know that Phillistines were Cretans and speak similar
Cretan was a Thracian-Tyrrshenian speaking
as also Athenes as also north Thessaly

The lemnean stele proves that phoenician was speaked in some Thracian tribes until 400-500 BC
in fact Thracian was as today latin speaking people - Italy-spain -France - portoquese
language from 1 origin to different nations
besides we know that Thracian of Odrysse were near to Persian

the Thracians of the balcans were the last tribal system
even odrysse create a system more complex as a state



watch
In the context of the Kurgan hypothesis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis), Greco-Aryan is also known as "Late PIE", or "Late Indo-European" (LIE) suggesting that Greco-Aryan forms a dialect group which corresponds to the latest stage of linguistic unity in the Indo-European homeland in the early part of the 3rd millennium BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/3rd_millennium_BC). By 2500 BC, Proto-Greek and Proto-Indo-Iranian had separated, moving westward and eastward from the Pontic Steppe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontic_Steppe), respectively.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Aryan#cite_note-4)


now watch that
More accurate archaeology has revealed the broad outlines of a farming and seafaring culture that had immigrated from Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor) ca 5000 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5th_millennium_BCE). Early Cycladic culture evolved in three phases, between ca 3300 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33rd_century_BCE) - 2000 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20th_century_BCE), when it was increasingly swamped in the rising influence of Minoan Crete. The culture of mainland Greece contemporary with Cycladic culture is termed Helladic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helladic_culuture).

meaning that 5-10-15 % or R Ydna could not change the speech of minoan etc
and if that happened a big % would have stay

Trojan Linear A scripts (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Trojan_script&action=edit&redlink=1)
Linear A is one of two scripts used in ancient Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Crete)
Vladimir I. Georgiev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_I._Georgiev) published his Le déchiffrement des inscriptions crétoises en linéaire A in 1957 stating that Linear A contains Greek linguistic elements.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A#cite_note-Nagy_1963_210_Footnote_.2324-2) In 1963, he published an article, "Les deux langues des inscriptions crétoises en linéaire A", suggesting that the language of the Hagia Triada tablets was Greek, but that the rest of the Linear A corpus was in Hittite-Luwian

Of these peoples, according to Staphylus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Staphylus), the Dorians occupy the part toward the east, the Cydonians the western part, the Eteo-Cretans the southern; and to these last belongs the town Prasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Prasus&action=edit&redlink=1), where is the temple of the Dictaean Zeus; whereas the other peoples, since they were more powerful, dwelt in the plains. Now it is reasonable to suppose that the Eteo-Cretans and the Cydonians were autochthonous, and that the others were foreigners ..


Cydonians Sidonians????????


the more you know crete the more you feel Tyrrshenian and Luwan
although that is the Pre or Proto-Greek Branch of Big Family of languages



Copper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper) pins dating to 4000 BC found in Egypt

also boats were known before 5000 BC

how yes no 2
07-02-11, 01:15
1rst stop seeing every where serbs and croats
Seri and Huri
are the Greek Sorokos (serokos) and OUrios
Sorokos comes from SE Africa (meltem)
maistros comes from NW dinaric
Ourios means Behind the direction
Our'a not O'ura = ταιλ

so huri and seri are not nations


no, you didnot understand...
Seri and Hurri (day and night) are bulls that carry weather god...
they are not winds...

look at section about Eastern Anatolia... btw. Taurus area is southeast Anatolia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

thing is Serb/Croats cluster with Romania, central Ukraine and east/west Hungary...but this cluster than clusters with Asia minor and Albanians (from paper described on http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/11/clustering-of-european-y-strs.html)...

that coupled with knowing that early Slavs are of Veneti origin (written by Jordanes) and that Veneti come from Paphlagonia (written by Herodotous) made me think that I should search for proto-Serbs and proto-Croats in Asia minor...

already in post before Seri/Hurri mapping to Serbs and Croats, I had indication of proto-Serbs having some undetermined relation with Taurus/Thrace /Teresh/Etruscan..

the reason Seri and Hurri reminded me on serbs and croats is not just links of proto-Serbs/proto-Croats to Serians/Hurrians tribal names (which is something I have already for months as I see proto-Serbs in Serians mentioned by Seneca, and I know Croats who deeply believe in Hurrians being proto-Croats), but day and night thing... like yin and yang...
Serbs and Croats are opposites in many ways, but they are one in same time..a bit as they cannot exist without each other...e.g. when I try to look clues for ancient history of Serbs I keep having Croats popping up in pair with proto-Serbs... e.g. white Serbia/white Croatia, matching coats of arms in neighbouring areas of north Ukraine, Sarban and Krevatas in Caucasus, Pasthun Sarban and Croat iranian origin teories tied to area just next to Sarbans...


Venti (Anemoi in Greece) are wind gods
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi

Venti may be mythological counterpart of tribe of Veneti
Zephyrus (born in caves of Thrace) on west with his son Carpus, and Eurus on east...

and you must admit that wind is related to weather...or probably thought in ancient times to be the one who brings and control the weather....
thus, clear mapping between proto-Serbs/proto-Croats representing carrying weather god with proto-Serbs and proto-Croats being related to Veneti tribes....

in fact Paphlagonia (where Veneti or nation represented in mythology with wind gods or weather gods lived) is just north of (or above it on maps) Taurus (bull)...this may have a meaning that it was thought that Paphlagonia is the key to the climate of Asia minor due to influence of Taurus mountain... and this is symbolically represented mixed with nations living there Veneti/Hurrians/Serians...
do not forget that this is about times much before Greek written history... as Veneti were kicked out from Asia minor soon after Troyan wars...

and keep in mind that Sherdana people did carry helmets with horns (thus looked as bulls do) and that it is known that Serbonian bog/Sirbonis/Serbonis lake in Egypt was named after Sherdana...
and that among sea peoples are also Teresh which may be just corruption of Taurus... and also origin of name of Etruscans (who btw. had own name Rasena identical to Serbs medieval name Rasani and in fact also to tribal name of Russians...with Thracians being likely the same name)

well, look at the island of I2a2 still existing in Kurds in area in close proximity of both Paphlagonia and Taurus

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

btw. tribal name Kurds... what does it remind you on (knowing that k and s are interchangeable in centum/satem languages)?

I think that haplogroup I separated from IJ in Persia, but than most of it went north towards Caucasus and Asia minor.... part branched imediatelly to east giving Pasthun Sarbans and Serians of north west China... part continued over Caucasus to Scandinavia and I1 developed from it....and part went to Asia minor and I2 developed from it... it is possible that when soon after Trojan war Veneti went to Thrace, Serrian/Hurrian (proto-Serbs and proto-Croats) went to Caucasus, from there to Ukraine, than to white Serbia (Bohemia and east Germany?) and white Croatia (Slovakia, south Poland, west Ukraine) ...
worth noting is that soon after Trojan war there was 18 year old hunger that caused half of Lydians to go away (Etruscans meaning that probably Lydia was back than including Taurus)...
much later I2a2 Lydians collapsed under wave of E-V13 - this would be related to story of shepard Gyges finding dead king of Lydia and stealing his magic ring and becoming king.... which caused I2a2 Cimmerians to furiously attack his state but without success.... Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...Gyges name became name of his people - Gog or Ghegs...


about Vrygians and Bithyni were Thracians
as also
THOUKIDIDES says that Athenean spoke (Troyan)Tyrrshenian before koine
as also we know that Minoan Crete spoke Tyrsshenian
Phrygians origin from Bryges...
Bryges were probably not Thracians...
it is suspected that they came to Balkan from north from Lusatian culture area of influence......
they did cross through Thrace on way from central Albania to Asia minor... a part of tribe stayed in Thrace, but that does not make them same in culture and language and haplogroup as other people living in Thrace...
you cannot make conclusions about Thracians based on Bryges as it is known that they settled there from central Albania, and settled central Albania after comming from north Europe...
now arrival from north Europe means they were probably not J or E dominant people... I suspect it was R1b as R1b has spread towards central Albania and also exist in Asia Minor in place of their last settlement...

Minoan Crete perhaps spoke Tyrsshenian cause there is lot of haplogroup I in Crete...



that approach has to do with I and J
I and J had the IE language and not R1b or R1a
Tyrrshenian Thyrrenean Thracian Troyan
Luwan Minoan Greek are the rest of that language
at that time they probabbly all had IE language...



I inform you that Phoenician was the Language of Sappean Thracian,
that's not the language, that's alphabet....



we know that Phillistines were Cretans and speak similar
Cretan was a Thracian-Tyrrshenian speaking
as also Athenes as also north Thessaly
I believe that Philistines origin from Pelast sea peoples, and that they are Pelasgues...


The lemnean stele proves that phoenician was speaked in some Thracian tribes until 400-500 BC
so, if in 2000 years someone digs out this forum conversation he can conclude that english was native language of Greece in 21st century?
but if Phoenician was used it also indicates relation with southeast Asia minor population which in fact supports my thesis that Taurus/Taurisci on south east coast (from whom I think Etruscan and Teresh sea peoples origin) are also origin of Thracians....



in fact Thracian was as today latin speaking people - Italy-spain -France - portoquese
language from 1 origin to different nations
besides we know that Thracian of Odrysse were near to Persian
iranian is satem language as slavic...
if they were near to persian they spoke satem as is well known anyway...

as for Crete, minotaur myth makes me suspect that they were related to people who lived in Taurus area...

iapetoc
07-02-11, 03:02
Although I see you continue splitting
I will still try to Unite

Tesesh was Not a Tribe
it was a cleric-religion cast
find out Tiresias and later Augur
Remember ter-o in greeks means observe.


now find out caduceus symbol

find a poem of orpheus for gree (3 old woman-fates)

orpheus was Pieri thracian
Orpheus was using Lyre as Musical organ as also today Thracians Cretans Pontic Greeks Laz people and Atheneans


now about Thracians and Vrygians
Makedonians found them and mention them around their later capital meaning central Makedonia

main Vrygian city was
Edessa edu and Vedu is the water in Vrygian and issa is the wall- the tower
also Larissa means La =stone ris= nose edge, issa = wall today in modern Greek is acropolis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa,_Greece

the Thracians you mention, where the last with Satem cause of the Skudra

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skudra

by realizing the Skudra and that Paioni were under Troya occupation and that bithyni also went to minor asia
as also in Homer Greeks speak similar with Troyans and many Thracians
but could not understand other Thracian,
as also later with odrysse thracian at Xenophons time translation needed
the fact that Before koine Greeks A colonization was mainly in Areas of Luwan speaking
which were near troyans and allies, and at coastal of Thrace Illyria
and south of Etruscans Magna Grecia,
and in B colonization elsewhere, and later they make koine language

the Iphigeneia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iphigenia
the lelantin wars for ischia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ischia


Watch that

The endings -bria ("town, city"), -disza, -diza, -dizos ("fortress, walled settlement"), -para, -paron, -pera, -phara ("town, village") are from the Thracian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language), as are numerous other lexical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexical_%28semiotics%29) elements in this list. Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo) translated -bria as polis, but it might not be accurate[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Thracian_cities#cite_note-15). Thracian language -disza, -diza, and -dizos are derived from Proto-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) *dheigh-, "to knead clay", hence to "make bricks", "build walls", "wall (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wall)", "walls", and so on. These Thracian lexical items show a satemization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satemization) of PIE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PIE) *gh-. Cognates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognates) include Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) teichos ("wall, fort, fortified town", as in the town of Didymoteicho (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Didymoteicho)) and Avestan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan) daēza ("wall").

now find Hettit language
Troy = wIllassa
greek cities
Edessa
Tyrinssa
Larissa
Dorissa
Chalkissa
Antissa
SSamos
SSami
SSamothrace
Chandassa (old cretan name for Heracleion)
Lassate today Lasithe

linear B ko-no-sso ->knossos (minoan)
ne-na = float Nassa -Naxa->Naxos (island) Fortification for ships


Later the Greeks turn -issa to ida or itha
Lassate ->Lasithe
Tyrinssa ->Tyrintha
Dorissa->Dorida

Para or Phara means light tower a tower that holds fire
Paros
Pharia in Dalmatia
later the par became pur (fire) and the building Purossa
Purossa ->burssa turkey Gr Prousa
Vrussa outside Athens in gr Alphabet Bryssa
here I live area Bruaza
Pyr+thesis +essa -Pryntessa ->brindesi (italy) (brindis-io)
kallos+Pyr = Calabria

the Pyrossa became ->Pyroga ->Pyrgoa-Pyrgos
Pyrgos is a tower that holds fire and it is fortificated
instead of Pharos which is not fortified
Gr Pyrgos BG Burgas city name

as you realize i don't know where the Venneti came from
but Linguistic is that thracian and tyrrshenian came by Middle East to balcans
the land movement where more persian and became north balcans Thracian
the south came by sea closer to levantine and became Thyrrenian and later Greek (greek is a synonym of Cretan)
and the Troyan later became Etruscan
the possibility that Hettit were the west Branch of first language or split by the first language


about paioni and agrinio
you manage to connect
Agriannes with Agrinio
but Agrios means savage scary and sometimes violent
also argos and agros is the field
argos = fiels in plain mainly
and agros = fields that plow
Agrinio means farmers cultivators of land
Agriannes believe also the same

so my thought about thracians and i2a has a point
meaning that north satem Thracians I2a carriers were close to persian thracian
and south and coastal J2 was more Levant phoenician -tyrrshenian
hmm
or it seems that Hettit was the 1rst Thracian branch of IE speaking and split
to perso thracian north
greco thracian west
and phoenician south

the fact is that Greeks are more vowel even north Greece than south Slavic or north Thracians
vowel in Greek is phoneen ;)
although much less vowel than others

example
Proto-Indo-European *(d)ḱm̥tóm, which became Avestan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avestan) satəm (hence the name of the group), Persian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_language) sad, Sanskrit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanskrit) śatam, Latvian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_language) simts, Lithuanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_language) šimtas, Old Church Slavonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic) sъto. Another example is the Slavic prefix sъ(n)- ("with"), which appears in Latin, a centum language, as co(n)-; conjoin is cognate with Russian soyuz("union").
Greek sun ΣΥΝ modern as sin older as sun the u very short u as in Uranus

DejaVu
08-02-11, 21:33
The Pelasgian Problem

The Problem of Ancient Minor Languages.

"...The most significant among Hellenes are Athenians and Lacaedemonians. The first come from Ionic tribe, the second - from Doric tribe. And, Ionians are of Pelasgian origin, and Dorians - of Hellenic." (I, 56.)
This message belongs to Herodot, who wrote his "Historia" in the 5th century B.C. Pelasgians are so often met in different Ancient Greek manuscripts that we do not practically doubt they lived in Greece. The most widespread theory in ancient times was that Pelasgians were the Pre-Greek population of Southern Balkans and the Aegean Islands. Greek authors placed their native land in Fessalia, in Northern and Middle Greece, and on the majority of islands in the Aegean Sea.

According to Greeks, in the 5th and in the 4th century B.C. Pelasgians still lived in some regions of Greece, on several islands, and spoke a language Hellenes could not understand. Later they were assimilated completely, leaving practically no inscriptions, no books, no signs of their language in Greece, just some descriptions Greeks made themselves after them.
But were they Indo-Europeans?
It is well known that the first wave of Indo-European migrants who came to settle to Crete, the Aegean Islands and to Continental Greece from Asia Minor were Achaeans, the so-called "first wave of Greek migrants". It is they who created the Minoan on Crete and Mycenaean in Peloponnese civilizations. Then Doric tribes invaded Greece, but could easily understand the language of Achaeans, and nowadays Dorians and Achaeans are considered to have been just the two varieties of Greek population, with dialectal peculiarities in their common language.
But Pelasgian language was not understood by Achaeans. Herodot was Achaean himself (he was born in the Ionic city of Halicarnassus), but he wrote: "...We can conclude that Pelasgians spoke a barbarian language... Even now the citizens of Creston and Plakia speak another language, different from their neighbours'... But what about Hellenic tribes, to my mind, they always spoke one language." (I, 57-58.) That means Herodot could not understand Pelasgian and considered Pelasgian to be barbarian language, together with Lydian, Phoenician or Thracian.

Now let us refer to historical details. Pelasgians, having lived in Greece before Hellenes came, used to fight with newcomers, but evidently were crushed and lost their lands. In the epic poems of Homer (8th century B.C.), the Pelasgians are mentioned as the inhabitants of several locations in Greece including the ancient city of Dodona in eastern Epirus, southeastern Thrace, Argos, the Peloponnisos (Peloponnesus), and Crete. Herodot three centuries later names just two of their cities. The process of extinction went fast. Naturally, the only place they could survive for some time and avoid assimilation were small islands in the Aegean Sea. And only here we have one (maybe the only) evidence they really had their language.

http://files.myopera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/lemnos_stela_01.jpg Little inscriptions were found on the island named Lemnos which proves Pelasgians lived there in their isolated community in the 7th and 6th century B.C. Hesiod, Homer and other Greek authors give us no doubt Lemnos's signs are of Pelasgian language. But they are not Indo-European. The language is completely unknown, and some researches even believe (following ancient legends) that Lemnos Island's inscriptions are close to Etruscan and Rhaetic language. That is how a theory was supported about the ties of Pelasgians and Etruscans: "If we judge for nowadays Pelasgians, who live north from Tyrsenans..." (I, 58). That is how Herodot shows neighbourhood of Etruscans (Tyrsenans) and Pelasgians. Strabo in the 1st century A.D. follows this theory: "Modern Cere [in Etruria] is said to have been founded by Pelasgians who came from Fessalia." (V, II, 3). Euripid in his "Archelaios" says that Pelasgians were the first people to settle on Lemnos and Imbros Islands, then inhabited Greece, and partly went to Italy led by Tirsenos, the ancestor of Etruscans.

http://files.myopera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/pelaszgians.png And though Strabo and Hesiod believe Pelasgians used to be Hellenes, Etruscan language which has nothing in common with Greek proves they were not. But still there are too many contradictory sources of information. Greeks, who were sure that every nation had their Hellenic religion with just different names for gods, always called other peoples' divines Greek names: they called Egyptian Amon "Zeus", they called Celtic goddess Boann "Artemis" and so on, the same for every people. That is why Pelasgian gods, who could have their own names, were called "Zeus", "Apollo", "Hermes" by Greeks.
Certainly, Pelasgians who lived nearby Greeks, could borrow their gods, myths and beliefs, but that does not prove, for example, that the Temple in Dodona many authors talk about was devoted to Zeus and not to an autochtonic Pelasgian god. Pelasgian might have similar cults, gods for rain, ground, sun and moon. The only description of Pelasgian sculptures, that of Zeus, believed to have been delivered to Larisa from Asia Minor, is described by Pausanius as having three eyes (II, 24) - a feature not common among Greek gods. Pelasgian religion must have been different from Indo-European.

And nevertheless, no one can be sure. In the 70s this century a Bulgarian linguist Georgiyev published his works where he tried to prove that Pelasgian language was of Indo-European origin. According to him, it was a representative of Paleo-Balkan languages, of their Thraco-Illyrian branch. Georgiyev cites Ancient Greek historians, Hesihios's dictionary and composes the so-called "Pelasgian glossary" - words in Greek borrowed from Pelasgian. Here we are glad to offer the full list of that glossary.

aleifo - I smear
asamindos - a bath
astu - a town
atembo - I offend
afnos - wealth
balios - white
bretas - a statue
gaia, ga - a land, a region
deyo - I irrigate
dunamai - I can
eiko - I retreat
elaion - butter
derapne - a dwelling
ide - a forest
lahe - a pit
neos - a temple
pyndax - a bottom of a vase
pyrgos - a tower

Based on his analysis of Pelasgian glossary, Georgiyev also gives a table of phonetic changes from Common Indo-European to Pelasgian:
http://files.myopera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/pelaszgians1.png
As we can see, most of the changes remind those for Thracian and Phrygian languages, from Balkan language community. Greeks considered Thracians and Phrygians to be barbarians; the same with Pelasgians. But if Thracian words easily prove the language was Indo-European, all inscriptions are translated and the origin is clear, we cannot say such things about Pelasgian.

Too many arguable things. Inscriptions from Lemnos similar to Etruscan; legends about Pelasgian relativeness with Tyrsenans; common opinion that Pelasgians lived in Aegean region before Greeks arrived - that all gives us a chance to suppose: Pelasgian was not Indo-European. Its speakers were - together with Iberians in Spain, Aquitans in Southern France, Rhaetians and Ligurians in Alps, Etruscans in Italy - the representatives of the autochtonic, pre-Indo-European population of Southern Europe, the Mediterranean race which spoke a language we cannot define now. It was not Indo-European or Semitic; maybe just Basques can nowadays tell us what it was like.

But still there are a lot of "maybe". Etruscan is not deciphered yet, Pelasgian written documents were lost in history. A century ago the humanity knew nothing about Hittite or Tocharian languages; new archaeologic, historical and linguistic research can always give us more material about the past of Indo-Europeans. That is why we should not state anything with surety; just analyze, guess and search.

iapetoc
09-02-11, 00:46
so Dejavu
the Cyclades civilization which is 4000 BCalmost
in the middle of Aegean is the pelasgic
which I believe iis also the proto-Thyrrennian and proto-cretan

now could that language also be the thracian far ancient language?
i mean in the tribes we know as thracians,????
and then the thracians turn to Skudra
thyrrenian by the words you mention above could be centum language
could the thracian be a centum language
and change with the Skudra


dejavu thank you that was very helpfull

LeBrok
09-02-11, 03:18
iapetoc, do you have your results of your haplogroups back?
I wonder if you guessed right? G2a3?

I just got mine few days ago. Freaking unexpected result lol.

barbarian
09-02-11, 08:28
nice discussion. thanks for the contributors.

iapetoc
09-02-11, 21:33
Le Brok

G2a3b
want the dys lebrok?
i Have to go again to university labs




how yes no my question for you is that

was Tyrrshenian and Thracian Dialect of the same language or not?

I believe yes,

how yes no 2
09-02-11, 21:45
how yes no my question for you is that
was Tyrrshenian and Thracian Dialect of the same language or not?
I believe yes,

I do not know...
not enough data to claim linguistic connection...
but I suspect there is tribal name connection...
btw. from wikipedia about Tyrrshenian


"Spard" or "Sard", another name closely connected to the name Tyrrhenian, was the capital city of the land of Lydia, the original home of the Tyrrhenians; it was referred to by the Greeks as "Sardis"). The name preserved by Greek and Egyptian renderings is "Sard," for the Greeks call it "Sardis" and the name appears in the Egyptian inscriptions as "Srdn."[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians

for me this 'srdn' in Egyptian inscriptions for Sardis is identical as for Shardana


The earliest mention of the people called Srdn-w, more usually called Sherden or Shardana, occurs in the Amarna Letters correspondence of Rib-Hadda, of Byblos[2], to Pharaoh Akhenaten, at about 1350 BCE. At this time, they already appear as sea raiders and mercenaries, prepared to offer their services to local employers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shardana

iapetoc
09-02-11, 23:45
cuase as I already saw you before similarity of Thracians with Hettites and Greeks,
although it could be IE there is a posibility to be dialects each of other,

another evidence is the Phoenician Alphabet that use the Greeks,

the Troyans that reach Dardania as also the Skodra of Persians (Skudra)
i don't know I cant specify
either northern Balkans learn Thyrrenian by Troyans and were satem
either they became satem by persians
either both speak dialects but south - Greeks -Thyrrenian became centum cause of sea immigration, and inland by foot immigrations kept the persian satem thracians
in 70 translation of old testament (the 1rst ever) name that Iauan people settled in Θαρσεις Tharseis, Tarshish but also Theiras Θειρας Tiras was their ungle

watch very far ancient Greek cities Tyris - tiris tyras-tiras in ukraine also a city in levant Tiros and the island of Thera

that is why I connect ancient Thracian with Thyrrenian

Psalm 72:10
May the kings of(A (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm72:10;Ezek38:13&version=ESV#cen-ESV-15011A)) Tarshish and of(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm72:10;Ezek38:13&version=ESV#cen-ESV-15011B)) the coastlands
render him(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm72:10;Ezek38:13&version=ESV#cen-ESV-15011C)) tribute;

Ezekiel 38:13
Sheba and(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm72:10;Ezek38:13&version=ESV#cen-ESV-21439B)) Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all(C (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm72:10;Ezek38:13&version=ESV#cen-ESV-21439C)) its leaders[a (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalm72:10;Ezek38:13&version=ESV#fen-ESV-21439a)]
Ezekiel 27:12


"Tarshish did(B (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel27:12&version=ESV#cen-ESV-21134B)) business with you because

Psalm 48:7

You destroyed them like ships of Tarshish
shattered by an east wind.

Regulus
10-02-11, 19:30
Garrick's quote:
"But now I want something else to say.

Read the post 365133 carefully (3 posts above).

Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:

"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

Slavic Y-DNA in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.

When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.

If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.

Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally are not R1a but I people.

Once the Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the ancient I language.

When I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known.

It is clear that the I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans, but we still does not know exactly who they were. It is assumed for example that I bearers were Vincians people. However, only the research of DNA to be precisely determined. Certainly a few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write.

...
Today Slav Macedonians mistakenly try to present themselves to the ancient Macedonians, it is likely to issue a Doric tribe Makednoi that founded Macedonia.

Ancient Macedonia was not occupied the border of today's FYROM Macedonia.

Northwest of the then boundaries of the ancient Macedonia lived Illyrians.

But northeast of then borders of the ancient Macedonia lived Paeones.

There is a likelihood that the Paeones were one of the I tribes that lived in the Balkans, if it proves today Slav Macedonians are descedents I tribes in the Balkans and beyond, also from I tribes in the Balkans and beyond originate and today the Serbs and Bosnians.

...
And I ask all participants to this forum to everything related to Macedonia write on the topic of the Macedonians, as here is another topic. "

This is very clearly thought out and written well. I like the idea of exploring options like this. The possibility of "I" peoples being the base group that later had a R1a Slav admixture makes much sense.
I will read it again later and post more thoughts on it then.

DejaVu
11-02-11, 22:55
HAVE YOU RETURNED TO THE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS?

DID YOU RUN OUT OF ANCIENT HISTORY SOURCES?

MOST IMPORTANT IS TO PROVE FYRO MACEDONIANS ARE SLAVS?



Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Macedonia (FYROM)
I2a2 29,1%
I1 5,0%
R1a 15,2%
R1b 5,1%
E1b1b1 24,1%
J2 12,7%
G2a 5,1%

Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - of 79 Ethnic Macedonians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe

62,2% (haplogroups without I1 & I2) vs 34,1% (haplogroups I1 & I2)

Conclusion: ethnic Macedonians dont have haplogroup I as majority.


GET THIS IN YOUR BRAIN!

FACT!

Garrick
12-02-11, 00:06
HAVE YOU RETURNED TO THE POLITICAL DISCUSSIONS?

DID YOU RUN OUT OF ANCIENT HISTORY SOURCES?

MOST IMPORTANT IS TO PROVE FYRO MACEDONIANS ARE SLAVS?



Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Macedonia (FYROM)
I2a2 29,1%
I1 5,0%
R1a 15,2%
R1b 5,1%
E1b1b1 24,1%
J2 12,7%
G2a 5,1%

Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - of 79 Ethnic Macedonians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_h...oups_in_Europe

62,2% (haplogroups without I1 & I2) vs 34,1% (haplogroups I1 & I2)

Conclusion: ethnic Macedonians dont have haplogroup I as majority.


GET THIS IN YOUR BRAIN!

FACT!

DejaVu
If you noticed I do not want to participate on this subject.

I'll just add, Regulus is right.

Precisely what distinguishes Slavo Macedonians from the Greeks and Albanians, is the presence I and the stronger component of R1a. (When you add R1a, according to Pericic et al you get I + R1a 49.3%).

And take into account number of Albanian minority in Macedonia FYROM (25% population), and that the E haplogroup is dominant among the Albanians. Also take into account that haplogroup J is the most frequent among the Greeks.

Only a few analytical think.

Without I haplogroup and a stronger presence of R1a, ask is whether Slavo Macedonians had any specificity.

And that's what several participants here trying to tell you, just a facts.

And it really has nothing to do with politics.

iapetoc
12-02-11, 00:08
Dejavu

tell me me,
ancient thracian language
is near Thyrrenean-tyrrshenian
is near Hettit or Persian
is near to slavic?

watch is satem language

and about R1a Regulus watch that letter R is vowel in ancient Greek
and letter L was also a vowel in thessaly and makedonia but not in Greek thracian
means that r was also hr or rr or wr

but Greek Makedonians do not use the j as slavic do

Dienekes (http://www.blogger.com/profile/02082684850093948970) said... >> The weak correlation between I and R1a throws a bit of a wrench in to the Greek-Slavic hypothesis.
I and R1a could have entered in Greece in medieval times, because they occur more frequently to the north of it, but they could also have been present in ancient times. Until their internal structure is better resolved we are really not in a position to say much.

now if that R1a was ancient since you know gennetic, could that be German branch?
just wondering

and who denys that R1a enter in medieval times, meaning that a big % of today named slavic makedonians lived in area of Greek Makedonia,
besides remember that Dusan's capitol Skopje is almost next Greek makedonia,
and Dusan ruled enough years to some small devastations
also in ottoman empire etc

the problem is that church gave name to nations
that kings claim what ever, who could stop them
remember a latin king of Makedonia after Boniface de Monferat who bought the title of king by an expeled king just to go to crusades as a noble !!!!!!!!!!!!!

but lingua as it is writen by ancient and as it is in use by modern is different


Besides DejaVu if you want more politic I have many
but I don't want more,

DejaVu
12-02-11, 00:40
Told you to not write anything about FYRO Macedonia or ethnic Macedonians, but you cant let go. (Already recognized the ethnic Macedonians by talking about them all the time)

Once again the Greeks and Serbs are failing and trying to convince someone with fake statements without evidence. (Continue of breaking forum rules: (4) ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR : repeated, abusive posts that are intended only to attack other members, ethnic groups, countries, or organizations).


Nobody cares what Greeks and Serbs think about ethnic Macedonians = Unvalid information.
(No DNA test done by those two people or their country are valid, because of the hate and fabrication against FYRO Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians and they clearly show it)


Continue about the ancient Macedonians if not gonna start spamming again.

iapetoc
12-02-11, 00:58
Told you to not write anything about FYRO Macedonia or ethnic Macedonians, but you cant let go (Already recognized the ethnic Macedonians by talking about them all the time).

Once again the Greeks and Serbs are failing and trying to convince someone with fake statements without evidence.

Nobody cares what Greeks and Serbs think about ethnic Macedonians = Unvalid information.
(No test done by those two people or their country are valid, because of the hate and fabrication against FYRO Macedonia and ethnic Macedonians and they clearly show it)


Continue about the ancient Macedonians if not gonna start spamming again.


phhhh

Wrong again
I simply recon an Independent state that is Slavic and named after a treaty and the name of the area

I don't racon any bullshit you claim,
besides all who read make their thoughts

so Good night my friend Dejavu Independent Slavic who create a new nation at 1913 AD

DejaVu
12-02-11, 01:00
phhhh

Wrong again
I simply recon an Independent state that is Slavic and named after a treaty and the name of the area

I don't racon any bullshit you claim,
besides all who read make their thoughts

so Good night my friend Dejavu Independent Slavic who create a new nation at 1913 AD

Only recognize Sub-Sahara Greece with Sub-Saharan Greeks.

iapetoc
12-02-11, 01:03
i already did that,

and i ask you is it bad?

if I change nationality and become a slavic will I be European?

Elias2
12-02-11, 01:37
F - fabricated
Y - Yugoslav
R - Republic
O - of
M - Malakas

how yes no 2
12-02-11, 02:04
in my opinion, ancient Macedonians were dominantly R1a and south Slavs (people of Veneti race according to Jordanes) were dominantly I2a2...

but there was significant I2a2 in Balkan aslo prior to south Slavs arrival...
we can see that by spread in Asia minor, by significant spread in areas of Greece that were not settled by Slavs, by some spread along italian Adriatic coast while Slavs never settled there and Illyrians did....

so, if arrival of south Slavs was real and numerous, they were perhaps I2a2 dominant people who settled among dominantly I2a2 people... perhaps even part of same people arriving from one of tribal settlement to another, with differing tribal names....

marriage of R1a and I2a2 accross east Europe is hard to explain...

iapetoc
12-02-11, 08:30
How yes no,

you say dominant ancient Makedonian is R1a,
in which tribe?
the Argeiads? the upper-west Makedonia, the mygdonians?

now if R1a was dominant, then Spartan sould be also R1a, west Crete should be also Dominant R1a even in minor asia where Dorians went should be also R1a
and as you heard in History Sicily in the East should have dominant R1a
if in every Doric colony dominant is R1a then ancient Makedonian Argeiads should be R1a,
I don't believe that this is true, cause in doric cities we have small R1a,
so How Yes no make the compares with other dorian cities and you will see

how yes no 2
12-02-11, 14:34
How yes no,
you say dominant ancient Makedonian is R1a,
in which tribe?
the Argeiads? the upper-west Makedonia, the mygdonians?
now if R1a was dominant, then Spartan sould be also R1a, west Crete should be also Dominant R1a even in minor asia where Dorians went should be also R1a
and as you heard in History Sicily in the East should have dominant R1a
if in every Doric colony dominant is R1a then ancient Makedonian Argeiads should be R1a,
I don't believe that this is true, cause in doric cities we have small R1a,
so How Yes no make the compares with other dorian cities and you will see

there is around 10% of R1a in Ragusa in southeast Sicily and also in Santa Ninfa in west Sicily...the rest of Sicily has around 5%...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n1/fig_tab/ejhg2008120t1.html#figure-title

there is also hotspot of R1a in west central Crete and in highlands of east most Crete...(see Rethymnon and Lasithi Plateau in table bellow)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ro2ijOk8JWc/SC8zx6avGkI/AAAAAAAAADQ/7hL-UB7IwTQ/s1600/data.jpg

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html



Post-migrational distribution of the Dorians
Though most of the Doric invaders settled in the Peloponnese, they also settled on Rhodes and Sicily, in what is now southern Italy. In Asia Minor existed the Dorian Hexapolis (the six great Dorian cities): Halikarnassos (Halicarnassus) and Knidos (Cnidus) in Asia Minor, Kos, and Lindos, Kameiros, and Ialyssos on the island of Rhodes. These six cities would later become rivals with the Ionian cities of Asia Minor. The Dorians also invaded Crete. These origin traditions remained strong into classical times: Thucydides saw the Peloponnesian War in part as "Ionians fighting against Dorians" and reported the tradition that the Syracusans in Sicily were of Dorian descent.[38] Other such "Dorian" colonies, originally from Corinth, Megara, and the Dorian islands, dotted the southern coasts of Sicily from Syracuse to Selinus. (EB 1911).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians

invaded Crete does not mean they left significant offspring...
key settlement is Peloponnese and that is where we should search for Dorians...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/0f/AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg/660px-AncientGreekDialects_%28Woodard%29.svg.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek

two sampled places in area of Peloponnese:
Patrai on north - not Dorian area, Achaean area of influence
Lerna/Franchthi - east part - Dorian area of influence..

thus, L/F should have much more Dorian element than Patras

Patrai - 11.1% R1b, 5,6% R1a, 44% DE, 11,1% I, 16,7% J2, 0% G2
L/F - 15.8% R1b, 1,8% R1a, 35%DE, 21,2% I, 14,2% (+1.8%) J2, 5.3% G2

now 14,2% J2 in L/F is way too small if Dorians were J2... and it is even less than in non-Dorian Patrai... thus, Dorians were for sure not J2 dominant people or R1a dominant people....they could have been haplogroup I (not known how much of it is I2a2 and how much other branches)

there is also hotspot of haplogroup I in west central part of Crete (Rethymnon)...


btw. on map of Greek dialects (note that Macedonian is not any of them) R1a hotspot matching ancient Macedonian's state would be mostly in Ionic area of Chalcidice...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
so, I guess Dorians were haplogroup I, and in Macedonia they had significant R1a admixture from some assimilated tribes... roughly even spread of R1a across the rest of Greece says that this R1a people could have been Pelasgues... note that according to Klyosov R1a is much much older in Serbia, Macedonia, and Bosnia than in the rest of the world taken together... which would fit Pelasgues who are ancient inhabitants of Balkan peninsula and pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece...


btw. note also R1a hotspot in Italy that matches Etruscan imprint, and hole in R1a of lower Lydia that indicates area from which they departed meaning that later waves in Asia minor were non R1a people.... same thing is visible in Paphlagonia and can be related to departure of Paphlagonia Eneti (future Veneti and later also Slavs)...

iapetoc
13-02-11, 20:02
search that areas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doris_%28Greece%29
the starting of dorean people

and these
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_people

They are the ghost of ancient Dorians
a tribe that speak Dorian better than any other ancient Dorian (kidding)

how yes no 2
13-02-11, 20:20
two sampled places in area of Peloponnese:
Patrai on north - not Dorian area, Achaean area of influence
Lerna/Franchthi - east part - Dorian area of influence..

thus, L/F should have much more Dorian element than Patras

Patrai - 11.1% R1b, 5,6% R1a, 44% DE, 11,1% I, 16,7% J2, 0% G2
L/F - 15.8% R1b, 1,8% R1a, 35%DE, 21,2% I, 14,2% (+1.8%) J2, 5.3% G2

now 14,2% J2 in L/F is way too small if Dorians were J2... and it is even less than in non-Dorian Patrai... thus, Dorians were for sure not J2 dominant people or R1a dominant people....they could have been haplogroup I (not known how much of it is I2a2 and how much other branches)

there is also hotspot of haplogroup I in west central part of Crete (Rethymnon)...


haplogroup I could also be due to Slavic people who did massivelly settle Peloponnese....

could Dorians have been R1b dominant?
there is R1b on Crete as well

how yes no 2
13-02-11, 23:11
Hellen (Greek: Ἕλλην; Katharevousa: ([ˈelːin] ( listen)) was the mythological patriarch of the Hellenes (Greek: Ἕλληνες), the son of Deucalion (or sometimes Zeus) and Pyrrha, brother of Amphictyon and father of Aeolus, Xuthus, and Dorus. His name is also another name for Greek, meaning a person of Greek descent or pertaining to Greek culture, and the source of the adjective "Hellenic".
Each of his sons founded a primary tribe of Greece: Aeolus the Aeolians, Dorus the Dorians and Xuthus the Achaeans (from Xuthus's son Achaeus) and the Ionians (from Xuthus's probably illegitimate son Ionas). According to Hesiod's Catalogue of Women (Greek: Ἠοῖαι), Hellen's sisters, Pandora and Thyia, were impregnated by Zeus in which the former gave birth to Graecus of the Graecians and the latter gave birth to Makednos of the Makedónes and Magnes of the Magnetes.

They conquered the Greek area of Phthia and subsequently spread their rule to other Greek cities. The people of those areas came to be called Hellenes, after the name of their ancestor. The ethnonym Hellenes dates back to the time of Homer. In the Iliad, "Hellas" (Greek: Ἑλλάς) and "Hellenes" were names of the tribe (also called "Myrmidones") settled in Phthia, led by Achilles.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellen

Macedons are not Dorians according to this myth.... in fact they are related to Greeks by female line....

My interpretation of myths is that new nation is born when one tribe subjugate other, subjugated tribe is represented in myths with female person, and the ruller tribe as male person....normally in those times man of winner side would take over woman of losing side...hence the relation to male line and female line...

I do not know how to interpret Zeus as father in this case... but dominant YDNA haplogroup in ancient Macedonians being likely R1a might be about non-Greek R1a tribe conquering Greek tribe represented by Thyia... culture and language might have been from mother side...


Interestingly, term Hellen in time of Illiad applied only to Myrmidones...or ant people...

The Myrmidons (or Myrmidones; Greek: Μυρμιδόνες) are people of ancient Greek mythology. They are very brave and skilled warriors as described in Homer's Iliad, and are commanded by Achilles.[1] Their eponymous ancestor was Myrmidon, a king of Thessalian Phthia who was a son of Zeus and "wide-ruling" Eurymedousa, a princess of Phthia. She was seduced by Zeus in the form of an ant. An etiological myth of their origins, simply expanding upon their supposed etymology — the name in Classical Greek was interpreted as "ant-people", from μυρμηδών (murmedon) "ant's nest"[2] and that from μύρμηξ (murmex) "ant"[3] — was first mentioned by Ovid, in Metamorphoses: in Ovid's telling, King Aeacus of Aegina, father of Peleus, pleaded with Zeus to populate his country after a terrible plague. Zeus said his people would number as the ants on his sacred oak, and from the ants sprang the people of Aegina, the Myrmidons.
According to Homer's Iliad, the Myrmidons were the fiercest warriors in all of Greece. As said in Iliad, "Go home, then, with your ships and comrades to lord it over the Myrmidons".

[edit]Later use of the term

The Myrmidons of Greek myth were known for their loyalty to their leaders, so that in pre-industrial Europe the word "myrmidon" carried many of the same connotations that "robot" does today. Myrmidon later came to mean "hired ruffian" (according to the Oxford English Dictionary) or "a loyal follower, especially one who executes orders without question, protest, or pity - unquestioning followers." (Dictionary.com).
Myrmidons is also the title of the first of a trilogy of plays by Aeschylus, collectively known as Achilles. The other plays in the trilogy are Nereids and Phrygians. See Achilles (play) for more.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myrmidons

Zeus is again the father... but in shape of ant... this might be about foreign people who are somehow identified with ants subjugating Thesaly represented by Eurymedousa, a princess of Phthia.... as Zeus is explanation for everything (easier than to realize that other side was better in waging war) than it was Zeus disguised in those people who subjugated the tribe....

iapetoc
15-02-11, 02:26
How yes no

first
in the area of makedonia you have only 2 cities

1 is Serres in ex thracian land
2 is saloniki which is a town from roman hugeeeee,
emany times roman army setlle there

you don't show me elements of west Makedonia which the 2 stronghold,
not even ematheia or pieria which is the Argeiads stronghold,
why? in purpose?
I pass
although remember that saloniki from ancient romans was center of universal trade and roman emperrors settle there

2nd according to dienekes we dont know the r1a if it is medieval or ancient,

let me remind you that in salonike you may find even normand dna and icelandic
cause until 1912 was the 1 rst in balkans trade city and 2 nd in ottomans after con/polis

and salonique was ocupied by romans serbs bulgars francais normand turks
salonique in 1900 had 15 official minorities except turk rulers

how yes no 2
15-02-11, 02:35
How yes no

first
in the area of makedonia you have only 2 cities

1 is Serres in ex thracian land
2 is saloniki which is a town from roman hugeeeee,
emany times roman army setlle there

you don't show me elements of west Makedonia which the 2 stronghold,
not even ematheia or pieria which is the Argeiads stronghold,
why? in purpose?
I pass
although remember that saloniki from ancient romans was center of universal trade and roman emperrors settle there

2nd according to dienekes we dont know the r1a if it is medieval or ancient,

let me remind you that in salonike you may find even normand dna and icelandic
cause until 1912 was the 1 rst in balkans trade city and 2 nd in ottomans after con/polis

I gave you the data that I could find about Greek genetics... don't kill the messenger... Dienekes is Greek patriot, so I guess you can trust that he didnot forge the data he collected from several articles about Greeks.....
I wish that there is more data about genetics of certain areas too... If I manage to find some more data I will post it... I know there was comparative research for Italy and Greece, but do not know if that is included in Dienekes compilation.... also in that research you can clearly see on maps how ancient Macedonia sticks out from the rest of Greece genetically...

btw. what do you think about my interpretation of myth of Hellenic people and where Macedonians fit.....

my opinion is that it is about non-Greek R1a tribe that conquered some Greek tribe and was more or less hellenized.... hence relation to other Hellenic people via female line...

iapetoc
15-02-11, 23:59
ok I agree with youin a point

but then you check the Italy were Greca-ni lives in south italy like Letse Taranto

Apulia

these were Greeks colonies, so if the had R1a that should move to Italy to colonies in East sicily and apulia etc
in the map the half area of Greek colonisation has R1a but the biggest part falls dramatically
meaning that R1a if it is connected with normands of sicily etc, or the latin crusade (4rth) cause slavic invasion in italy it is not mentioned

that is why even today the I2a and R1a is a question for Greeks
the I2a we know it is connected with persothracian and with Pre Greek locals
before pelasgians

the problem to make it more clear is that in area of Greece we have today other ratio than in a colony of ancient time of the same city,

for example the R1a which is important to you drops dramatically in magna Grecia,
Why?
on the other it is so old that could exists in Greece before,
same but not so dramatically is the I2a
the above makes many questions

that is why to find out the dominant of a Greek tribe you must search in specific areas, for example in Crimea you find peculiar results in spoted areas that does not suit with general distribute, that is of a colonization you go back and check the results in today people, and you can have a view of ancienty

sorry about the data, i know them also,
But if Makedonians were R1a in the cities they build, would be a good R1a,
but that is missing or is very low in Alexandreia Egypt, or Syria, etc, in fact it is more far east


No for zeus and women is not what you see
cause Zeus also steal Europa from Phoenicia to Crete ....
So Zeus is Greek that time, but we don't know his name,

It is a weding tradition in Greece to steal the Bride
as also every Blessed child is from Zeus,
Besides R1b kings today Aren't they Ελεω Θεου
instead of God Save Greeks had God's Son, it is same
or davinci code or holy grail, or Jesus ..... son of God
that is the meaning of Zeus son

to understand it better
If not troyan war happened
Hellen of troy was taken by zeus to troy
she made 3 sons etc
later (when Zeus bored) she was married to Paris
that will be the story if troyan war did not happened

the body of Zeus will be the symbol of troy for example if troy had famoys geese
then Zeus charmed Hellen as a goose

cretan - Bull
myrmidons - ant etc


as an example of the colonization search
city A today has Ydna B at 20%
in colony A1 has spoted not wide 10 % in a wide 4 %
in colony A2 has spoted 25% in a wide 20%
that leads me to say city A had B Ydna in far anciety

But if City A has 20 %
and colony A1 has 2 % in a wide 2%
and colony A2 has 1%
sorry city A had lower B Ydna in far past

by following that you can find many dominants
and believe me the I2a and R1a drops, and raises the J2 and E outside Aegean,
But I2a is stable in Aegean colonization and falls slowly to ionic and Doric colonies of Pontus

Garrick
16-02-11, 01:27
ok I agree with youin a point

but then you check the Italy were Greca-ni lives in south italy like Letse Taranto

Apulia

these were Greeks colonies, so if the had R1a that should move to Italy to colonies in East sicily and apulia etc
in the map the half area of Greek colonisation has R1a but the biggest part falls dramatically
meaning that R1a if it is connected with normands of sicily etc, or the latin crusade (4rth) cause slavic invasion in italy it is not mentioned

that is why even today the I2a and R1a is a question for Greeks
the I2a we know it is connected with persothracian and with Pre Greek locals
before pelasgians

the problem to make it more clear is that in area of Greece we have today other ratio than in a colony of ancient time of the same city,

for example the R1a which is important to you drops dramatically in magna Grecia,
Why?
on the other it is so old that could exists in Greece before,
same but not so dramatically is the I2a
the above makes many questions

that is why to find out the dominant of a Greek tribe you must search in specific areas, for example in Crimea you find peculiar results in spoted areas that does not suit with general distribute, that is of a colonization you go back and check the results in today people, and you can have a view of ancienty

sorry about the data, i know them also,
But if Makedonians were R1a in the cities they build, would be a good R1a,
but that is missing or is very low in Alexandreia Egypt, or Syria, etc, in fact it is more far east


No for zeus and women is not what you see
cause Zeus also steal Europa from Phoenicia to Crete ....
So Zeus is Greek that time, but we don't know his name,

It is a weding tradition in Greece to steal the Bride
as also every Blessed child is from Zeus,
Besides R1b kings today Aren't they Ελεω Θεου
instead of God Save Greeks had God's Son, it is same
or davinci code or holy grail, or Jesus ..... son of God
that is the meaning of Zeus son

to understand it better
If not troyan war happened
Hellen of troy was taken by zeus to troy
she made 3 sons etc
later (when Zeus bored) she was married to Paris
that will be the story if troyan war did not happened

the body of Zeus will be the symbol of troy for example if troy had famoys geese
then Zeus charmed Hellen as a goose

cretan - Bull
myrmidons - ant etc


as an example of the colonization search
city A today has Ydna B at 20%
in colony A1 has spoted not wide 10 % in a wide 4 %
in colony A2 has spoted 25% in a wide 20%
that leads me to say city A had B Ydna in far anciety

But if City A has 20 %
and colony A1 has 2 % in a wide 2%
and colony A2 has 1%
sorry city A had lower B Ydna in far past

by following that you can find many dominants
and believe me the I2a and R1a drops, and raises the J2 and E outside Aegean,
But I2a is stable in Aegean colonization and falls slowly to ionic and Doric colonies of Pontus

Iapetoc,
excellent analysis.

I gave on other topics historical sources which Thracians or Thracian tribes equate with Serbs.

Connecting with your words:

the I2a we know it is connected with persothracian and with Pre Greek locals
before pelasgians

we come to the knowledge of linking I carriers in the past with the Serbs, and the continuity of Thracian Serbian presence.

Now things become much clearer about I bearers in the Balkans.

iapetoc
16-02-11, 10:23
Garrick not exactly

The I carriers were here before the serbs as the devastasion is mentioned before history,
simply the serbian rulling class and culture took a new Identity after 500 AD but the majority of people were hear before the invasion, simply south slavic devastation sums some quantities and change culture by changing ruling class

Garrick
16-02-11, 21:30
Garrick not exactly

The I carriers were here before the serbs as the devastasion is mentioned before history,
simply the serbian rulling class and culture took a new Identity after 500 AD but the majority of people were hear before the invasion, simply south slavic devastation sums some quantities and change culture by changing ruling class

Iapetoc
I gave the answer on the topic: Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA, # 70.

Both today’s Serbs and Proto Serbs are I people. And Serbian ruling class in the Middle Ages very probably were I carriers.

Serbian nationalists are trying to say that Serbian ruling elites in the Middle Ages were R1a, but it is not true, and Nemanjices and others, with very high probability, they were I bearers.

R1a in the Balkans is a very very old and has nothing in common with the Serbian nobility in the Middle Ages.

Interestingly, the Americans carried out the researchings haplogroup some famous Americans of Serbian origin and they were I bearers.

And for the Serbian nobility there is no doubt that were I dominant, but it is important to explore very old cultures, for example Vincians.

Interestingly, the I people, according my knowledge, have never been numerous in the region of the Aegean and Ionian Sea.

I people have settled around the great rivers, such as the Danube, Neretva, Vardar and so on.

The biggest mystery is when and why I people received the language and culture R1a carriers. But it could be a very long time since I and R1a people thousands of years lived together in the Balkans.

So, and it has nothing to do with the medieval Serbian nobility, or some other elite.

how yes no 2
16-02-11, 22:09
And for the Serbian nobility there is no doubt that were I dominant, but it is important to explore very old cultures, for example Vincians.

why do you keep talking of Vincans and keep equating them with proto-Serbs? there are not much indicators that suggest such a connection...

haplogroup I2a2 does indeed show spread along Danube so Vincans could have been I2a (which doesnot mean they were)...

but if you know haplogroups of Vincans that still doesnot tell you anything about proto-Serbs (unless Vincans were both R1a and I2a2 with exact lineages as today in Serbia), as Vincans easily might have been completely unrelated to proto-Serbs....

iapetoc
16-02-11, 23:03
Garrick the Greek can be recon by colonization and sea trade roads,
J2 main and after E-V13 has connection

the I2 people if you watch are sweet waters civilization,

whats in minor asia in the 2 rives,
whatch in balkans in the aquatic systems

the R1a in balkans we dont know if it is connected with Medieval or far ancienty

Garrick
16-02-11, 23:23
why do you keep talking of Vincans and keep equating them with proto-Serbs? there are not much indicators that suggest such a connection...

haplogroup I2a2 does indeed show spread along Danube so Vincans could have been I2a (which doesnot mean they were)...

but if you know haplogroups of Vincans that still doesnot tell you anything about proto-Serbs (unless Vincans were both R1a and I2a2 with exact lineages as today in Serbia), as Vincans easily might have been completely unrelated to proto-Serbs....

How yes no
I'm thinking more in the sense that it is useful to perform Y-DNA test for Vinicians, because it would answer some important questions.

Sure, you can be right, ie. maybe this test and did not answer, but certainly it will be worth a try and may prove an important result.

Garrick
16-02-11, 23:34
Garrick the Greek can be recon by colonization and sea trade roads,
J2 main and after E-V13 has connection

the I2 people if you watch are sweet waters civilization,

whats in minor asia in the 2 rives,
whatch in balkans in the aquatic systems

the R1a in balkans we dont know if it is connected with Medieval or far ancienty

Iapetoc
Ok, someone may interpret that I people are sea people when looking at the island of Sardinia, for example.

Yes, I people have settled part of the Adriatic and Black Sea.

But this may be due to lowering down the river Neretva and Dnepr and Dnestr.

However, I people from Anatolia did not come to the shores of the Middle East and North Africa, but they went to Iran and other inland parts, again led by rivers.

This is looking at the schedule I people in Balkans, Eastern Europe and Asia.

how yes no 2
16-02-11, 23:45
Garrick the Greek can be recon by colonization and sea trade roads,
J2 main and after E-V13 has connection

the I2 people if you watch are sweet waters civilization,

whats in minor asia in the 2 rives,
whatch in balkans in the aquatic systems

the R1a in balkans we dont know if it is connected with Medieval or far ancienty

correct
J2 has clear correlation with spread along sea coasts and I2 along rivers...
also R1a in Balkan is still kind of enigma... I would like to see more research in Sorbs....

however, I think that Slavic settlers might have been dominantly I2a2 because I2a2 is single common dominant element for all south Slavs, because I2a2 distinguish FYRM Macedonians from FYRM Albanians, while R1a is fairly even spread among them... because Slavic Montenegro has twice less R1a than non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia.....

and also because Peloponesse that was massively settled by Slavs shows 22% of haplogroup I and only 1.8% of R1a...though more sampling is needed to have conclusive theory about this as sampling might have been in area that has not much Slavic influence...

DejaVu
17-02-11, 00:07
In Europe, R1a, again almost entirely in the R1a1a sub-clade, is found at highest levels among peoples of Eastern European descent (Sorbs (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sorbs), Poles, Russians and Ukrainians; 50 to 65%). In the Baltic countries R1a frequencies decrease from Lithuania (45%) to Estonia (around 30%). Levels in Hungarians have been noted between 20 and 60%.
In Southern Europe R1a1a is not common amongst the general population, but it is widespread in certain areas. Significant levels have been found in pockets, such as in the Pas Valley (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pas_Valley) in Northern Spain (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Spain), areas of Venice (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Venice), and Calabria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Calabria) in Italy (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Italy). The Balkans (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Balkans) shows lower frequencies, and significant variation between areas, for example >30% in Slovenia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Slovenia), Croatia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Croatia) and Greek Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Macedonia), but <10% in Albania (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albania), Kosovo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kosovo) and parts of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece).

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Haplogroup_R1a_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Haplogroup_R1a_%28Y-DNA%29.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png/800px-R1a1a_distribution.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/94/R1a1a_distribution.png)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/R-M458_frequency_distribution.PNG

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Haplogroup_R_%28Y-DNA%29.PNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R_(Y-DNA))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA))
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R1a_frequency_by_population (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_R1a_frequency_by_population)

iapetoc
17-02-11, 01:59
How yes no

now as you see from the above dejavu post the R1a in greek makedonia is a mystery,
that is why i make an argue for data,
cause Iknow that the more the west the more E the more midlle the more J2 the more east and north I2a raises,
my other question is the R1b in Greece, for me should be more Anatolian - minor asia than central European it should be connected with south Pontic areas than with celtic,

I believe that a search in body relicks of ancienty could help, although many sarcophagus have ashes

Now about I2a as a slavic, hmmm many times i connect it with perso thracian, and before J2 And E in balkans, but could it north carpathian or tatra and moved south later?

the trouble with I2a is that has slavic language and viking elements but it is not as R1a, in known expansion lands,
seems like I2a and R1a speak same language, but are tottaly independent in their moves and kingdoms, and not cooperative

Garrick
17-02-11, 22:47
How yes no

now as you see from the above dejavu post the R1a in greek makedonia is a mystery,
that is why i make an argue for data,
cause Iknow that the more the west the more E the more midlle the more J2 the more east and north I2a raises,
my other question is the R1b in Greece, for me should be more Anatolian - minor asia than central European it should be connected with south Pontic areas than with celtic,

I believe that a search in body relicks of ancienty could help, although many sarcophagus have ashes

Now about I2a as a slavic, hmmm many times i connect it with perso thracian, and before J2 And E in balkans, but could it north carpathian or tatra and moved south later?

the trouble with I2a is that has slavic language and viking elements but it is not as R1a, in known expansion lands,
seems like I2a and R1a speak same language, but are tottaly independent in their moves and kingdoms, and not cooperative

Iapetoc
There are a lot of different informations.

For example, the linguist Sergei Rjabichkov has long researched and published a lot of books, one of them is:

Rjabichkov, Sergei V. 1998th Ancient texty Slavyan and adygov

Interestingly, the author claims:

Reading of a Linear A Text, Cretan tablets

Reading of the text of the Phaistos Disk

corespond (proto) Slavonic language.

http://slavonicweb.chat.ru/disk.htm

Total by this author Proto Slavonic languages are three:

1) the Scythian (Sarmatian) language is the Proto-Slavonic ones

2) Other Proto-Slavonic dialects are the languages of the Pelasges (the writing of Linear A, and its decorative version on the Phaistos disk) and

3) of the Etruscans.

Neander
19-02-11, 01:25
Acording to M. Iunian Iustin, in Epitoma, Macedonia early, was inhabited by pelasgian and in that time was called Emathia.

Even Homer does'nt speak anywhere of Macedonia.

The term Macedonia for the first time was used by Herodotus in th 5-th century.

Then, what is "Macedonia" and What is "Emathia"?

Macedonia is greek term to call that land, which by authoctonous pelasgians (emathians) was called Emathia. It is related to "megas" and means "tall, big or great".

The same is for Emathia, but it is not in greek, but in albanian, "e mathe" in south dialect (which is near Macedonia), means (big, tall, or great).

The first man to go in Olympian games was Alexander, the great-grandfather of Aleksander the Great.

The ancient Macedonians, were not greek, nor slavs. They were akin to Illyrians and Thracians, both to be pretended by majority of scholars as ancestors of albanians.

I think a Balkan historian, which doesn't know albanian language is a blind in his studies, because it is the only language to be compared with greek, and to explain the root of macedonian, thracian and illyrian and even greek words.

Neander
19-02-11, 02:13
It seems, that Herodotus translated Emathia to Macedonia.

iapetoc
19-02-11, 05:52
Neander
may I remind you that The ancient Argeiads came from Pelloponese to Thessaly to Pieria And Kick Thracian Tribe Like Pieri,
Also if they were Illyrians then why their worst Enemy was Dardania????

Now Makedonia Means long hair in Attic and Cousin In Greco Thracian-Vrygian
Homeric Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Greek): ammatho êmathoessa, sandy land , PIE *samadh ; the coastal, swampy land around Axius river, in contrast to mountainous Macedonia .

The connection with Albanian MAT is Mistaken,

Ematheia is Part of Argeiad Territory as Pieria,
The connection you are writting is Wrong, the Area was Thracian and invaded By Greek in order to coonect with the Vrygians, in Fact the Thracians of the Area are not Pelasgoi But Leleges if you connect with Agrinio Greece,
That can be also proved that Pelasgian lived east of Chalkidiki in an Area where Argeiads had no Troubles,

for your information Aigea The capital is after the name of ancient Aiginion in Histia in thessaly, as also Pella means old like mt Pellion,
The Makedonians were the aeolians that invede Upper Makedonia (west)north of the cities of Phyllakai,
May I remind you that Phyllakai in Thracian Serdi -Seldi (in english soldier),
Even today that area is Named Servia from far ancienty, and the people are Shurdi from Sherdi - Sherdana -Sardeis etc
How Yes no knows about that, and connected them with R1a, although in dorian south we have drop of %,
the only connection that Argeiads have with Illyria is the area of Korce (Κορυτσα) and Girokaster (Αργυροκαστρο) and the the area of Ohrid that were in the counsil of Hettairoi,

now about the illyrians read better Herodotus, and translate the words mistaken

The lands around Aegae, the first Macedonian capital, were home to various peoples. Macedonia was called Emathia (from king Emathion) and the city of Aiges was called Edessa, the capital of fabled king Midas. According to legend, Caranus, accompanied by a multitude of Greeks came to the area in search for a new homeland [5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28ancient_kingdom%29#cite_note-4) took Edessa and renamed it to Aegae. Subsequently, he expelled Midas and other kings off the lands and he formed his new kingdom. According to Herodot, it was Dorus, the son of Hellen who led his people to Histaeotis, whence they were driven off by the Cadmeians into Pindus, where they settled as Macedonians. Later, a branch would migrate further south to be called Dorians.
It seems that the first Macedonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians) state emerged in the 8th or early 7th century BC under the Argead Dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_Dynasty), who, according to legend, migrated to the region from the Greek city (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polis) of Argos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argos) in Peloponnesus (thus the name Argead).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28ancient_kingdom%29#cite_note-6) The Macedonian tribe ruled by the Argeads, was itself called Argead (which translates as "descended from Argos").


as you see Neander the connection of @e [email protected] is mistaken,
cause in Greek-Pelasgian MAK-ros means one dimension very big
Mek-os MAk-ros is the length and makros the far Big
find the word ΜΑΚΡΥΣ In your lexicon

now in pelasgic means Mak-edi (far away cousin or the tall fillia φυλλη) the edi is Vrygian and ethi (ethin) the greek and we find it in many thracian tribes like Maedi Bythini-Bethini etc
Ethi pass to mean the today ethnic Ethnos
MAk-Edi ->MAkedi ->makedonian
about the meaning of tall MAk-tribe
the tribe of the tall people, although we know that Phillip and Argeiads were short
or the far away cousins relatives

Phillip 1,68 m according the vergina tomb


Ematheia cames
either from PIE sand land
either from king Ematheion of Thrace (Samothace-Emathothrace)
Makedonia is the area that Argeiads unite and ruled.
Pieria Ematheia Bottiiea Bissaltia (Bissedi) Syntica, Servia, Aenae Balla Eordaia etc
later a roman province
in byzantine was the name of Bulgaria, etc
the connection with Illyria is incoorect cause
1 Makedonians always in war with Dardania,
2 Makedonians ally were the Molloseans Epirotans who invade Illyria, and had Later Pyrros

The before MAkedonian Capital of ematheia was Κιτιον kition which is an Arcadocypriot word
you can find the name of kition in many areas as also the 1rst name of cyprus
the before Makedonian capital of Pieria was Λειβυθρα Leivethra
which is a very ancient toponym that connects with Phoenician
probably like other Pelasgian or Leleges, toponym word is Semitic and means either Leibun (a holy pine tree) or Levi (holy man-priest)
we know that cause LeiBethra is near MAkedonian holy city of Dion,

and if Neander you still insist Find about Pieri,

now about Homer ^ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emathia#cite_ref-0) Iliad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad) 14.226 (http://old.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0134:book=14:card=1 93)
now about Makedonians Illyrians always in war,
about the tall tribe I explained it to you in Pelasgian, not IE
About the ancestors of Illyrians read about Cadmus,
About the ancestors of Albania seek for Anju and Normands

Besides Makedonians invade that area 300-400 after Hommer
In Order to connect with Brygians

in fact History proves that Makedonians and Illyrians were in Hate, except 3 Kings of areas I report above
REMEMBER THAT PAIONI FOLLOWED ALEXANDER BUT DARDANI DID NOT FOLLOW HIM
AS ALSO REMEMBER THE SKUDRA


Neander you are maybe right,
But albanian language is not the only that kept pelasgic,
2nd excavations proves what History says,
3rd THE MAKEDONIANS KICK THE THRACIANS TO EAST (PIERI TRIBE)
The MAkedonians took the land of Bryges and Bethini who moved to asia minor
so what ancient people??
THE BRYGES AND THE PAIONI WERE NOT PERSO or ILLYRO-THRACIANS
BUT GRECO-THRACIANS
now about the Ancient Makedonians what were they History and excavations and Language is Clear
now about Albanian LAnguage I am Sure that it is precious But changes meanings of many words,
as example Ematheia is the toponym IN PIE of sand,
sand in Greek Koine is Ammos in Homerick is Emathos
so the land of EMATHOS is EMATHOESSA which in Greek becomes EmathoeDa-> Emathoea-Ematheia
besides at Homers Time that Area was under King Ematheion
the simmilarity is just a coinsindance,
If a third meaning from Albanian Language it is acceptable, but in that case does not prove connection of Makedonians with Illyrians, But a Geografical area with tall people as described in Illyrian Language
Emathe land of tall people, does it says they are Illyrians?
to be more understood Scotia is Greek name for Scotland means the Dark LAnd, does that mean that Scotish are GrecoBrittish???
cause that is what you say, because @[email protected] means tall in Illyrian then Ematheia is Illyrian
ok then with your logic England in Greek is Albionia,
You see In Greek means that England is Albania, so English are Albanians,
is it logic???, Ematheia in Albanian language means the tall, but that does not mean that they were Albanians,
Espagna in Greek means dedicated to god Pan (Phanus), does that mean that Spanish people are Greeks?
Russia means the red people land in Greek, but that does not mean the Russians are Greek,
or the name Russian is Greek, it comes From Ros PIE word
now about the blind thank you,
I prefer to be blind than one eye Neander

now about @e [email protected] who knows maybe the King of Samothrace was Illyrian,
But not the Argeads

For Your Information The Ancient Makedonians were Greek
The ancient PIERI BRYGES BETHINI were PELASGIC LELEGES THRACIAN, NOT IILYROTHRACIANS NOT PERSO THRACIANS NOT DACI THRACIANS,
in the lands of the Above settled the GREEK MAKEDONIANS

besides the Perso-Thracians are the today south slavs as genetick seems to lead to that conclusion

Neander
19-02-11, 17:16
Now Makedonia Means long hair in Attic and Cousin In Greco Thracian-Vrygian
Homeric Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Greek): ammatho êmathoessa, sandy land , PIE *samadh ; the coastal, swampy land around Axius river, in contrast to mountainous Macedonia .
It is not sandy. Even it is fertile land, which produce a lot of grains.

It was made sandy, because make sense in Hellenic language. But it is not sandy.

Even, I dont understand why do you link Emathia with greek, while as ancient authors have said, Emathia was called so in the pelasgian time, so it is pelasgian word,

And Pelasgian didnt spoke hellenic.


for your information Aigea The capital is after the name of ancient Aiginion in Histia in thessaly, as also Pella means old like mt Pellion,For your information, Aiges was called after Goats, (you know the story).


According to Herodot, it was Dorus, the son of Hellen who led his people to Histaeotis, whence they were driven off by the Cadmeians into Pindus, where they settled as Macedonians. Later, a branch would migrate further south to be called Dorians.Hellen, and Dorus didnt exist. It is mythic story about the creation of the hellenic nation.

Hellenic nation, was created after they separated from pelasgian. So pelasgian and illyrian in origin, they separated from them, and became Hellenes.

Thare is only on nation/race/language, until 8-th century, but it has not its proper name, because they never were politically united. But it was only one language/race/nation.

Illyrians and Hellens, it is the same name. Helios, which in albanian and illyrian became Hyll, we can see the root word H*L.

I said, the balkan historian, who doesnt know albanian language, is a BLIND HISTORIAN.

Just tell me what is the origin of word "BATRAXOS"???????????

Neander
19-02-11, 17:24
Even we knoe some of words which are clearly albanian:

Macedonian - Albanian - English
Baskioi - Bashkoj - Unite, together, etc
Bathara - Batha

Macedonian - Illyrian
Sigyna - Sibyna

While Sigyna is linked to albanian Shigjete (archer), Sibyna is linked to albanian (Thuper).

But definitely, Macedonians were a mix of two kindred nations: Illyrians (west) and Thracians (east), as are the today albanians.

Neander
19-02-11, 17:27
We must return our eyes to an older language which preceded greek nation.

Greek nation was formed circa 8-th century, as a separated from Pelasgians, Illyrians, and Thracians. There was only one nation until 8-th century.

But then the greeks separated, because of asiatic influence (orientalizing period, phoenician alphabet, the myth of Deluge taken from the semits etc). For example Albanians doesnt have the myth of Deluge.

Neander
19-02-11, 17:32
Ematheia cames
either from PIE sand land
either from king Ematheion of Thrace (Samothace-Emathothrace)
Makedonia is the area that Argeiads unite and ruled.It is ridicoulous, when you evoke some hipothetised words like PIE sand land, which is not proven to ever exist, and you totally ignore albanian word E madhe, which means big, tall, or great, and is related to Megas, and Makednoi (tall people).

So we must return our eyes, PIE is just hipothese. Albanian language is not hypothese, it exists, and I think you must learn that, because it is the only way to know the history of balkans.

Again I say, just tell me the origin/etymotlgy of word "BATRAXOS" ?????????

iapetoc
19-02-11, 18:36
Neander who is ridiculus?

you see every where Albania as ONE EYE CYCLOP

want Pelasgic ok

Zeus10 Bulsshit

Hommer ΕΡΕΒΟΣ (go down in earth, Dark)
Albanian EREVET
Greek ΕΡΕΒΟΣ (the dark of death, not in wide use) Σκοτος ( the dark of the bottom of tartarus)

Zeus 10 says that Erevet is Albanian Word and Hommer was Illyrian
well lets see the truth
Semitic EREBU = DARK

Semitic J Pelasgian and cadmus J2
so the History and the Myth exists
cause Pelasgian J2 in Aegean is also In Albania
meaning that Erevet came from Cadmus Pelasgian to Illyria, since pelasgian is the cyclades civillization J2
History is to solve hands not create bullshit, as ZEUS10 DOES or aristidi kolla

maybe as I see in Albanian nationalistic sites Egyptians are albanians scottish are albanians maybe semitic people are Albanians,

The Aigean was inhabitted by many,
the Pelasgoi were J2 people, also the Leleges exist also the E people of mess

The Dorians comes from the area of Lokri as their city in Magna Grecia were speak Dorian Greek, Doros is the 1rst Meaning of dorians, In fact Dorians have no Connection with Illyria,
The only connection with Illyria the Prehistoric Phoenician-Pelasgian Cadmus and the later Aeolic rulers of South Illyria or North Epirus or what ever, that area from Greek Thesprotia to Greek Colony Apollonia- Pogiani and Epidamnus, or the Albanian Cammeria to Durres that area were Aeolic Illyrian Messapic

about βατραχος

watch
ATTIC
ΦΟΡΘΥΞ -> Φορτυγ-ος
In Crete
ΑΦΟΡΘΑΚΟΣ AFORTHAKOS
in MAkedonia
AΒΟΤΡΑΚΟΣ
DORIC
ΒΟΘΡΥΞ
Ionic (also pontic Greek)
ΦΟΘΡΑΚΑΣ


Φ ανδ Β nad Π ασ Τ Δ Θ ανδ Κ Γ Χ

In Brygian Greco-Thracian is ΑΒΟTΡΑXΟΣ
becomes the BΑΡΤΑΧΟΣ - ΒΑΤΡΑΧΟΣ

ΤΗΕ OLD IE AFORTHAKOS -> Frog Frosh Varde

Even today in Makedonia and Crete the fat ugly woman is Forthaka or Vorthaka (ugly as female frog)

I am interesting in the Albanian Explanation,

I hope not a bullshit of Zeus10 or aristidi Kolla

Neander
19-02-11, 22:17
I hope not a bullshit of Zeus10 or aristidi Kolla
Aristidh Kolia, was killed, as he said: Don't deny about that, they killed me, like they killed many others like me.

It is Orthodox fundamentalism which is fighting against true pelasgian spirit. They even changed history,

For Zeus10, I did'nt cited him. And I suport him anytime, but in other cases I don't agree with him.

Let return to Batraxos:

You did'nt gave me the explanation of Batraxos, You didnt told me why it is called exactly Batraxos and not with other name.

I tell you. In Albanian it is called Bretkosa, and the male counterpart is Bretku.

In geg dialect, -bret- means (I am not sure cause I dont know english well), Scream, and it is called so because like we say "Bretkoca bret", or "Frog scream", and they do it in the spring, when males seek females, for copulation.

BReTKosa, and BaTRaKos, so we have BRTK, and BTRK. The same consonants.

Even from the word Bretk is derived Breshka which means Turtle, because they are similar in form and color.

Only albanian explain, why it is called Bretkosa and Batraxos.

It is Balkan the cradle of IE language.

Pelasgian = PIE

The greek is nothing more just a derivat of Pelasgian like Illyrian, thracian etc. But only one lanmguage, saved the word-forming from ancient times, and has the ability to explain the origin of words.

Neander
19-02-11, 22:22
maybe as I see in Albanian nationalistic sites Egyptians are albanians scottish are albanians maybe semitic people are Albanians,It has not any link to me.

We are telling our facts. I give you right, when you already have the right.

Zajaz
19-02-11, 22:42
Hi everybody,

I am a new member here! As far as I see, there are already 20 pages full of discussions concerning ancient ethnicity of Macedones whether they were Greeks or distinct from them. The way how some members manage to solve Macedonian old ethnicity is quite simplistic and erroneous.
It can not be ignored the very fact that Macedones were established in a territory which previously was peopled densely by either Illyrians and Thracians. That's why the legends of foundation of first kingdom mentioned Illyria or Illyrians.


137. Now of this Alexander the seventh ancestor was that Perdiccas who first became despot of the Macedonians, and that in the manner which here follows:–From Argos there fled to the Illyrians three brothers of the descendents of Temenos, Gauanes, Aëropos, and Perdiccas; and passing over from the Illyrians into the upper parts of Macedonia they came to the city of Lebaia.

137. τοῦ δὲ Ἀλεξάνδρου τούτου ἕβδομος γενέτωρ Περδίκκης ἐστὶ ὁ κτησάμενος τῶν Μακεδόνων τὴν τυραννίδα τρόπῳ τοιῷδε. ἐξ Ἄργεος ἔφυγον ἐς Ἰλλυριοὺς τῶν Τημένου ἀπογόνων τρεῖς ἀδελφεοί, Γαυάνης τε καὶ Ἀέροπος καὶ Περδίκκης, ἐκ δὲ Ἰλλυριῶν ὑπερβαλόντες ἐς τὴν ἄνω Μακεδονίην ἀπίκοντο ἐς Λεβαίην πόλιν.

The above Herodotes's story invoke that Illyria or Illyrians were the first neighbors of Macedones. In that paragraph we learn that Illyria was situated in outskirts of Argos, Upper Macedonia and Lebaia city. There is a plethora of facts emphasizing the solid Illyrian presence in Upper Macedonia as well as Lower Macedonia. I highly doubt that the so called "Peleponnesia origin" of Macedonians has any value since the Macedonians did not come from there. I think it was all a matter of confusion with the another Argos, which is situated in Orestia (who is thought to be the homeland of Maketas). By the way, Orestes as well as their neighboring countries had clear Illyrian features. To sum it up, Macedonians were most probably Illyrians...or kinsmen of them. The colonization of Macedonia's coast with Hellenic colonies brought up a new era, where Hellenism begun to extent in the very interior of the country. This was facilitated even by diplomatic efforts of Macedonian aristocracy to be engaged in Hellenic affairs in order to establish themselves as overlords of Hellas (which was suffering the causalities of long civil war of Athens-Sparta rivalry).

Thnx

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 00:24
Even we knoe some of words which are clearly albanian:

Macedonian - Albanian - English
Baskioi - Bashkoj - Unite, together, etc
Bathara - Batha

hello, that's cheating....

Macedonian báskioi had a meaning "leather sack"...
that is not exactly the same as unite/together


on other hand from list of 6 preserved ancient Macedonian words from wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language

1. Macedonian δάνος dánοs ('death', from PIE *dhenh2- 'to leave'),
no counterpart in Serbian
Attic Greek θάνος thános

2. Macedonian ἄδραια adraia ('bright weather'),
adraia (ancient Macedonian) = vedro (serbian) - common root: adr

3. Macedonian Βερενίκη Bereníkē - bearing victory
no counterpart in Serbian
Attic Greek - Φερενίκη Phereníkē - bearing victory

4. Macedonian ἀβροῦτες abroûtes - eyebrows
abroutes (ancient Macedonian) = obrve (serbian) - common root: brv

5. Macedonian βάσκιοι báskioi ('fasces'), leather sack'
no counterpart in Serbian
Attic Greek φάσκωλος pháskōlos - leather sack

6. Macedonian μάγειρος mágeiros ('butcher')
magerios (ancient Macedonian) = mesaros (Serbian)

thus, completely explainable with mix of Greek and Serbian, which is due to R1a people mixed with Greek tribes....


Greek myths of origin relate Macedon to Hellen via female line....R1a that is in Greek Macedonia twice higher than in nearby Slavic nations explains why...
I believe that ancient Macedonians were kind of union of R1a proto-Serbs with Greeks...



Macedonian - Illyrian
Sigyna - Sibyna

While Sigyna is linked to albanian Shigjete (archer), Sibyna is linked to albanian (Thuper)
again cheating...archer is completely different word from spear....
in that way sabre (sablja in Serbian) is same word as Sibyna...

interesting relation between Sigyna and spear appear in Croatia
place called Sinj (comapere sound of it to Sigyna) where there is traditional competition of spearman - sinjska alka
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alka

interesting relation between Sibyna and spear we find in Serbian epic songs

Sibinjanin Janko is the name given in Serbian epic songs to person whose name was Janos Hunyadi -


John Hunyadi (Croatian: Janko Hunjadi, Hungarian: Hunyadi János [ˈhuɲɒdi ˈjaːnoʃ], Medieval Latin: Ioannes Corvinus or Ioannes de Hunyad, Romanian: Iancu (Ioan) de Hunedoara, Serbian: Сибињанин Јанко / Sibinjanin Janko, Slovak: Ján Huňady) (c. 1407[3] – 11 August 1456), nicknamed The White Knight of Wallachia[4] was a general (1444–1446) and Regent-Governor (1446–1453) of the Kingdom of Hungary.[5][6]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Hunyadi

Hungarian noble, knight fighting with spear, and also someone who organized Hussars - light cavalry of Hungarian army made out of Serbian warriors who were under Sibinjanin Janko waging wars against Turks ...


A type of irregular light horsemen was already well established by the 15th century in medieval Hungary.[1] Etymologists are divided over the derivation of the word 'hussar'.[2] Many scholars believe the word originated in Serbian[3] as 'Husar', derived from the Latin root 'cursus' meaning 'raid'.[2] According to Webster's the word hussar stems from the Hungarian huszár, which in turn originates from the Serbian хусар (Husar, or гусар, Gusar) meaning pirate, from the Medieval Latin cursarius (cf. the English word corsair).[4]
...
The hussars reportedly originated in bands of mostly Serbian warriors [9] crossing into southern Hungary after the Turkish invasion of Serbia at the end of the 14th century. The Governor of Hungary, Hunyadi János - John Hunyadi, created mounted units inspired by his enemy the Ottoman Turks
...
Gusar light cavalry forces were part of the medieval Serbian military. Armed with spears and pentagonal wood shields padded with metal, they supported the noble knights as their second line on the battlefield.[12] In the middle of each wooden shield, there was a round metal knob that held the shield together.[13]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hussars


now
sibyna = spear
and Hunjadi Janos who organized Husars who fight on horse with spears and shield, is in Serbian epic poetry called Sibinjanin Janko

Sibyna = spear is obviously root of word Sibinjanin and must have had meaning "spear warrior"



But definitely, Macedonians were a mix of two kindred nations: Illyrians (west) and Thracians (east), as are the today albanians.
Origin of Albanians is twofold:
Tosks are mostly albanized Epirots... dominant haplogroup J
Geghs probably origin from Dardanians... dominant haplogroup E-V13

Illyrians is difficult even to exactly locate - most likely their location is north most Albania (most of south and central Albania of today was Greek Epirus), Montenegro and Serb settled part of Herzegovina (or up to river Neretva).... later Romans gave wrongly name Illyria to much larger area that included unrelated tribes such as various Pannonian tribes, Japodes, Liburnians, Histri....

the few preserved words of Illyrian language are completely alien to Albanian in meaning (for match both form and meaning must match... everything else is cheating and there is lot of shameless cheating of that kind in Illyrian ideology spread by those Albanians who are brainwashed to take for granted and blindly believe that they origin from Illyrians)....and anthropologically they are tall Dinaric people while Albanians are Mediteranean people whose height is not so large.....their haplogroup could have been E-V13, J2b, I2a2, R1b, R1a... hard to say...

if Illyrian coast was complete Adriatic coast, than they probably did have dominant I2a2...
otherwise, if Illyrian coast is just north Albania, Montenegro and Herzegovina till Neretva river, best guess we can obtain about haplogroups of Illyrians is by comparing data from Serbia and Montenegro (core of Illyrian state is Montenegro)

haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo


thus, in that case, Illyrians probably had E-V13, J2b, R1b, J2a and perhaps also some I2a2 but not as dominant

reason I add I2a2 is that along Adriatic coast of Italy is some I2a2 while there was no Slavic settlement there and there were Illyrian settlements... also it is clear that not all I2a2 came with south Slavs as there are hotspots of I2a2 in some not Slavic settled areas of Greece and Asia minor...
I believe part of previous I2a2 is due to Veneti, who once were known as Paphlagonia Eneti...
and early Slavs were identified as being of race of Veneti by Jordanes...
relation between Veneti and Illyrians is disputed...some people consider them to be same folk, some not... likely reason of confusion is Roman province of Illyria that included e.g. Liburnians who are almost certainly closely related to Veneti...
actually, some I2a2 along Adriatic coast of Italy could be due to Adriatic Veneti (not to be mixed with much later Venetian republic which only got name due to town of Venetia)...

Neander
20-02-11, 01:40
βάσκιοι baskioi (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D %2319575) 'fasces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasces)' (Hes. Attic δεσμοὶ φρῡγάνων desmoì phrūgánōn, Pokorny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indogermanisches_etymologisches_W%C3%B6rterbuch) βασκευταί baskeutaí, Attic φασκίδες phaskídes, Attic φάσκωλος pháskōlos 'leather sack', PIE *bhasko-)
Fasces are those who unite axe with sheaves in the roman symbol.

So fasces have simmilar meaning. But I think you dont know how Etymology works.

Even we dont know Macedonian at all. That in Wikipedia is not original macedonian language. It is greek dialect which was spoken in Hellenized Emathia, and the vocabulary was written late in 5 century after Christ.



again cheating...archer is completely different word from spear....
in that way sabre (sablja in Serbian) is same word as Sibyna...
It is not completely different, they are arms, to fight with them.


Origin of Albanians is twofold:

Tosks are mostly albanized Epirots... dominant haplogroup J
Geghs probably origin from Dardanians... dominant haplogroup E-V13These are bullshit. Epirots were barbarians as ancient authors told us. If we wanna know what was their language we must look at todays epirots or Tosks.

Tha assimilation occur in the contrary direction, because thay who have the state they make assimilation, and they who have not state they bacome assimilated.

Sot because Greeks, had the state (Byzantium), they assimilated all peoples of Anatolia, even the Jews etc.

But Albanians could not assimilate anybody, because they had not state, specially not in th south, until the late medieval (Ghin Bue Spata).

How the Epirots became Albanized?? Maybe some Gheg children armed with sibynas came in south and said to them, "Hey Epirots, come speak Albanian, we kill you", and the epirots were frightened, and begaun to speak albanian. hahha

So, epirots maybe did'nt call themselves illyrian, we don't know about thet, but it is proved that Epir and Illyria and Macedonia, as ancient authors said, have the same race, same language and same customs.

In the 385 BC Dionis of Syrakusa, help Illyrians with 2000 soldiers and 5000 arms, to fight against the philospartan party of Molossians, and to bring in the throne Alketa which was with antispartan party of Molosians. So the enemity between, Illyrians, is not argument to tell that they were different peoples. Even today Albanians fight eachother.

It was only one language, race, nation, in Ballkan until 8-th century BC, but in this time, some people there in the south, bastardized their language, Bretkosa became Batraxos, Illyrian became Hellen etc.

Macedonia was not Hellen, but it was hellenized later.

Even Alexander the Great, frequently spoke barbarian language to his macedonian soldiers. Even when he killed Kleitus, spoke barbarian language.

Macedonia has not any link to greece.

Neander
20-02-11, 01:42
Illyrians is difficult even to exactly locate - most likely their location is north most Albania (most of south and central Albania of today was Greek Epirus), Montenegro and Serb settled part of Herzegovina (or up to river Neretva).... later Romans gave wrongly name Illyria to much larger area that included unrelated tribes such as various Pannonian tribes, Japodes, Liburnians, Histri....It is not difficult. But it seems that you dont know much about history,. they lived from Slovenia to Ambrakia in the south, and from Adriatic sea to the Danub and Morava and vardar(Axios) river.



I believe that ancient Macedonians were kind of union of R1a proto-Serbs with Greeks...
And you have forget that serbs in the time of Alexander the Great had a great civilization, they hed electric and even they had computers.

Neander
20-02-11, 01:52
actually, some I2a2 along Adriatic coast of Italy could be due to Adriatic Veneti (not to be mixed with much later Venetian republic which only got name due to town of Venetia)... I2a2 has not any link in this thread. It is thread about Macedonia, and I2a2 is a slavic haplogroup, and Slavs came later in the 7 cebntury after christus

Neander
20-02-11, 01:57
We cannot separate haplogroup Ev13 and J2b, since they are together since Neolithic times. Both haplogroups have the peak in Kosovo.

So they are both dardanian, or simply illyrian haplogroups.

Others like R1a1 and I2a2 came with Slavs.

R1b came in various times, in ancient times as slaves of Roman patrons, later with various waves of migrations.

But only Ev13 and J2b are authoctonous. Thse represent the only race/language/nation which lived, through all Balkan, Italia, Rhaetia, Noricum, Dacia, Anatolia etc.

Macedonia is not exception.

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 02:33
It is not difficult. But it seems that you dont know much about history,. they lived from Slovenia to Ambrakia in the south, and from Adriatic sea to the Danub and Morava and vardar(Axios) river.
such area of influence would directly imply that they were I2a2 dominant people... as I2a2 is common element for people in that area...


We cannot separate haplogroup Ev13 and J2b, since they are together since Neolithic times. Both haplogroups have the peak in Kosovo.
So they are both dardanian, or simply illyrian haplogroups.
Others like R1a1 and I2a2 came with Slavs.
R1b came in various times, in ancient times as slaves of Roman patrons, later with various waves of migrations.
But only Ev13 and J2b are authoctonous. Thse represent the only race/language/nation which lived, through all Balkan, Italia, Rhaetia, Noricum, Dacia, Anatolia etc.
Macedonia is not exception.
if we are going to play game of who is more autochthonus (which doesnot make much sense as one can choose snapshot in history that proves his nation being more autochton), then
actually, E and J are less autochton in Balkan than R1a and I2a2...
because:

1) it is widely accepted that haplogroup I is in Europe before arrival of neolithic groups...

2) R1a is ancient old in areas of Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia. it is 11000 years old there while in rest of Europe it is 3-5000 years ago....
11000 years ago is much before arrival of E and J...


evidence has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia). (c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),

http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf


So, epirots maybe did'nt call themselves illyrian, we don't know about thet, but it is proved that Epir and Illyria and Macedonia, as ancient authors said, have the same race, same language and same customs.
quote sources... find text on internet (there are sites with ancient texts online)...link to it... otherwise I consider it just another propaganda trick...

iapetoc
20-02-11, 05:47
Neander

you only prove me that your Pelasgian are Good


You did'nt gave me the explanation of Batraxos, You didnt told me why it is called exactly Batraxos and not with other name.

I tell you. In Albanian it is called Bretkosa, and the male counterpart is Bretku.

In geg dialect, -bret- means (I am not sure cause I dont know english well), Scream, and it is called so because like we say "Bretkoca bret", or "Frog scream", and they do it in the spring, when males seek females, for copulation.

BReTKosa, and BaTRaKos, so we have BRTK, and BTRK. The same consonants.

Even from the word Bretk is derived Breshka which means Turtle, because they are similar in form and color.

Only albanian explain, why it is called Bretkosa and Batraxos.

Cretan Dialect κουζου-λος kuzu means screamer, the mad man yells
Ionic Greek Kουζος means loud speaker, yell man
KOINE Κυρηξ-Kος Κurix Kurex means preacher and delalis
the Virb is Κουω-ζω means yell
modern Greek is Σκουζω

now Bretku and Bretkosa means the Bret yell, the one that yells always Bret -bret

now if you don't like the explain in Greek pelasgian,
Next time don't try to explain Greek words with albanian, cause even your pelasgic means other

the Batraxos comes from Ionic Φορθυξ or dorian Βοθρυξ

ο Βοθρυξ
του Βοθρακου - βοτραχου - βατραχου

which is more near the Botrakos or bretku?

or In your explanation comes the virb
βρυχομαι brychomai-vrychomai
means i immitated the lion, I yell-scream roarrrrrr
Βρυχομαι is Homeric as also θρωμαι thromai
βρυχομαι means i Make big sound to scary someone I scream I yell
Βρυχηθμος is lion yell the scary sound
θρωμαι means the opposite the light sound the soft rrrrr sound
θροος is the sound, as an example the tree leaves in soft wind the throoun θρωουν
θροος is also the sound of wind
θορυβος is the louder to annoy ears sound
βρυχηθμος is the very loud scary sound

now If Bret is connected Homeric Brych -Bruch I don't know.
I leave it to you to deside
as also -ku if it is the pelasgic Ionic Kuzo Κουω-Κουζω I don't know
You are albanian, you know your language



BUT
I GAVE YOU THE EXACT WORD FROM WHERE BATRAXOS COMES
THE PIE FORTHYX ΦΟΡΘΥΞ ιν ΑΤΤΙΚ ορ ΑΒΟΡΘΑΚΟΣ ΟΡ ΒΟΘΡΥΞ
simply the φορθυξ -> φροθυκ - φρογκ -frog or frosh etc
only the change position of r connects it with many other IE languages


The same Bullshit also was done by Kolla and Zeus10
simply bullshit, one eye cyclops that pass Albanians for stupid,
I believe Albanians are more Clever people to read Zeu10

and I must ask you next time you say Bullshit PLZ ACCEPT YOUR IGNORANCE IN GREEK PELASGIC cause as I don't attempt to explain Albanian words plz dont try to explain Greek words with Albanian,
I know were a woman has the .... don't need you to show the hole of a brick
the Bretku is albanian and has no connection with Botrakos-Batraxos
if I repeat If due to respect to albanian language analyze it then with Greek pelasgic means Bret singer Bret yell




NOW ABOUT MAKEDONIANS
What Illyrian? MAkedonia took places that Vrygian and Bethini left, for the eternal war with Dardani
original Vruges are area north of Ohrid, and wars with Dardani push them to Bottiea
Dardani and Makedonians eternal war, what Illyrians and Thracians,
The only Illyrian that ally with Makedonian Argeians were the Amantes the penestaes and Parthini if I remember correct (the last maybe I am wrong)
only these 3 cities were in Hetairoi,
The paioni Thracians Ally with them and even Odrysse thracian offer peace and alliance exept Dardani
Besides the Half area of Makedonia east was and is habitted by Thracian, areas of Serres was Thracian Syntikes etc Mt Pangaion is Perso-Thracian name Aryan and means the Giving, in Greek means total Earth, the whole of Gaia, but that is Mistaken cause we know Paggaion mt comes the The thracian lingua, not from the Greek and means Giving land
The Homeric Nysa (in greek probably Nike or Nycha Νικη ορ Νυχiα)

Neander first find out what Dardani means, and then call Makedonians Illyrians,
Makedonians were clear Greeks from the area that Dorians that Hellen that Graikus were born Born

Now about aigai - aiges means goats, but search in Histieaiotis Ιστια in Thessaly where was the Makedonian first City Aiginion

The town is built on the location of the ancient city of Aiginion.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalabaka

What Illyrians?
Besides the Makedonian Dynasty claim Argos city and that is why they named Argeans

from @e [email protected] you destroy the whole History Lingua writers tradition just to say that Alaxander was Albanian

if that is not Cyclopean Nationalism (nazism) then what it is?
simply I feel sorry for the Albanians that read you and Zeus10,
I believe that Albanian Academic people are more clever that to connect the @e [email protected] (although I prove you it is wrong) with Makedonians,

Yes off course that Land was Thracian land a part of it,
but wars was done and Tribes moved, Find out about Pieri,The bulgarian Thracologist do not recon Pieri as a Thracian tribe but as a Greek,
cause orpheus language is more Greek than odrysse Thracianthe tribe of Vryges is considered more greco Thracian than perso or slavo Thracianthe paiones are considered thracians but their Kings had Greek names,
Find out why


Now about the balkans as the First area of speaking world or the center of IE
I [email protected] KNOW,
I believe that minor Asia was the babel tower, and not the kurgan or the maykob etc
cause the more back we go and unite languages the more the area south of Armenia we found,
I am thinking if the semitic Erebu comes from the pelasgian Erebos-Erevet
or the Pelasgian Erevet-Erebos comes from the semitic Erebu

iapetoc
20-02-11, 07:59
Neander the ignorant Nazi Cyclop

Epirus read aristotle says that is ARCHAEGONUS ELLAS
mt PINDOS AND MOLLOSEAN TRIBE
WHAT BARBARIANS THE DODONA ORACLE
SIMPLY BULLSHIT BY A NATIONALIST WHOSE IDEAS HAVE BEEN SMASHED
EVEN TODAY IN MAKEDONIA WE NAME THE FROG BOTHRAKA AND YOU TELL TELL THAT S ALBANIN BRETKU>>> ONLY A ...... LUNATIC WILL CLAIM THAT
OK HELLEN WAS MYTH DORUS WAS MYTH
ARISTOTLE WAS A MYTH ALSO??????

only a pissed off chauvinist that has one eye would claim that
simply i feel sory for the albanians that believe you cause you hide the truth and yoi promote pan albanism,
and when your fake dcuments fall simply you raise everything
just as you did above
Epirotans Barbarians




Even we dont know Macedonian at all. That in Wikipedia is not original macedonian language. It is greek dialect which was spoken in Hellenized Emathia, and the vocabulary was written late in 5 century after Christ.

It is not completely different, they are arms, to fight with them.

These are bullshit. Epirots were barbarians as ancient authors told us. If we wanna know what was their language we must look at todays epirots or Tosks.
Macedonia has not any link to greece.

MAkedonia is was and will be always Greek
Besides ORpheus was not Illyrian
Neither KARAMOS

Now since you don't know about the barbaric Makedonian Dialect I must inform you that Was
not Illyrian language but doric+aeolic+brygian
the makedonians did not spoke attic, and that means Barbarian to the Atheneans, but what can some wait from one that Believes and insist that Batraxos is not from Bothrakos but from bretku

Neander you make epirotans barbarians, aristotle says other
you make makedonians illyrians (wow)
next what? the cretans?

The Greeks comes from pelasgic civilization as non IE
but learn the IE either from Hettit either from Mycenae
the first attempt to unite was done under mycenae at 1200 BC
the later sea people destruction sent back hellenic civilization that started again with more IE elments in Hellenas river
the 776 Bc is the new start date that started much before to restore and unite area,
in that time Makedonians from Thessaly invade Pieria and kick the pieri and unite the GrecoPelasgic Thracians to Makedonia

Accept it,

besides found out who were the Skudra or skodra
what dardani means, whom allies were the dardani?
Epirotans were not barbarians
EPIROTAN WAS THE PYRROS AND THE KASTRIOTI
except if you believe that kastrioti was barbarian

Understand it
The Pelasgians were not Albanians
the albanians have pelasgic elements
as also Greeks Bulgarians Fyromians Serbians
Latin Rasians Lazic etc

The pelasgian civilization destroyed by a volcano
the remnants created nations and tribes

and since you say that Greeks were cut
May i remind you that Dardania was the center of Persian Empire in Balkans Skodra

now I admit that area of central Makedonia was inhabited by Thracian Pieri
which were Not Illyrians and I inform you that pieri were pushed to East
May I remind you that Bottieans were GREEKS from CRETE
May I remind you that Mygdonians Bryges were Isotones Languages to Greek, simply MAkedonians moved from Aiginion Thessaly to Herakleia to dion Pydna Bala and occupied land of thracians,
if Makedonians were illyrians as you say then why the worst enemy of Argeians was Dardania?
if MAkedonians were thracians then why it took them 400 years to defeat them, and only 30 years to conquer Greece?

if you are a linguist then you know that Greek Dias Dios (Zeus)
today is the Vrygian -MAkedonian Theos
dios Greek -> Tios Vrygian-MAkedonian ->theos today

why Paiones kings had Greek names????

Albanians are not the only thracians or pelasgian accept it,
Makedonians Argeians as also Orestias Herakleia Lynchia were Greek
and if not they were pelasgian so same thing, since Greek comes from Pelasgians

Makedonians Argeians unite Greek-Thracian Bottieans Mygdonians, kick Pieri and Bethini and took the lands of Vrygians,
you want or not Batraxos does not come from betku (not even same root)
but from Forthyx

I admit that I don't know Albanian language,
But when we use 1 language to explain a word of another language we must be carefull and respect
Betku does not explain Batraxos But Bothrakos does
same bullshit made Kolla and Zeus10, exactly the same
they believe That Pelasgians are albanians, and Greek is Albanian language and without knowing 1 Greek word they started to explain wrong Greek words
as an example of Kolla
Homeric Thera = door
AlBanian Dera = door
Greek Porta = door
But porta is from LAtin occupation francais port
Greek word is Thyra θυρα
and the high ignorance stupidity
Homeric Dera means fleece
meaning kolla write whatever :grin: :grin:

the same thing you do with bretku
and although i Have to [email protected] [email protected]
you insist that Bretku is the original and Bothrakos not :useless: :useless:

plz keep away Albanian Nazi propaganda
the Greek language is the Greek language
The albanian is the Albanian
they both have Pelasgian elements but that does not mean that albanian can explain Greek or the opposite, but only similarity in the words you find,
Greek language is Pelasgic But not Albanian realize that and stop finding albania behind every Greek word that sounds same


And remember that Epirotans are BArbarians and not archegonus Greece
then Kastrioti is a barbarian

Zajaz
20-02-11, 13:48
[/COLOR]Epirus read aristotle says that is ARCHAEGONUS ELLAS
mt PINDOS AND MOLLOSEAN TRIBE
WHAT BARBARIANS THE DODONA ORACLE

Hi iapetoc,
It seem obvious that you are clueless about ethnic character of ancient Epirotes. At the same time, your ambitious claim about Epirotes being Greeks does not hold any water because its runs against all literary sources from ancient Greek and Roman writers. Epirotes were never reckoned as genuine Hellenes; ancient historians never hesitate to call them as 'Barbarians' i.e non-Greeks. Instead of making fallacious pretensions, why you don't put forward any proof to back up your claims? I mean do tell us what are the literary sources that indicate any kind of Greekness of Epirotes?
Indeed ancient sources firmly indicate the non-Greekness of Epirus. Take a look at the below quote:


Plutarch, The Parallel Lives p347 The Life of Pyrrhus
"Of the Thesprotians and Molossians after the great flood, the first king, according to some historians, was Phaethon, one of those who came into Epirus with Pelasgus"

So, Pelasgus (the eponym of Pelasgians, according to other mythical traditions) is said to be one of the first who came in Epirus. Needless to say, that no one consider Pelasgians as Greeks.
Let's go further:


Strabo the Geographer
φασὶ δὲ καὶ κατὰ τὴν τῶν Μολοττῶν καὶ Θεσπρωτῶν γλῶτταν τὰς γραίας πελίας καλεῖσθαι καὶ τοὺς γέροντας πελίους· καὶ ἴσως οὐκ ὄρνεα ἦσαν αἱ θρυλούμεναι πελειάδες, ἀλλὰ γυναῖκες γραῖαι τρεῖς περὶ τὸ ἱερὸν σχολάζουσαι

It is further said that in the language of the Molossians and the Thesprotians old women are called "peliai" {482} and old men "pelioi." {483} And perhaps the much talked of Peleiades were not birds, but three old women who busied themselves about the temple.
At the Strabo's time the language of Epirus was acknowledged as entirely different from Greek. In addition with this, Epirus wasn't geographically in Greece because the northern confines of Greek world hardly passed Thessaly.

Strabo 11.14.12.
ἔδει μὲν γὰρ αὐτοῖς ἐπιθέτου κόσμου τοιούτου τινός, οἱ δὲ Θετταλοὶ μάλιστα βαθυστολοῦντες, ὡς εἰκός, διὰ τὸ πάντων εἶναι Ἑλλήνων βορειοτάτους καὶ ψυχροτάτους νέμεσθαι τόπους ἐπιτηδειοτάτην παρέσχοντο μίμησιν τῇ τῶν ὑποκριτῶν διασκευῇ ἐν τοῖς ἀναπλάσμασιν·
"The Thessalians in particular wore long robes, probably because they of all the Greeks lived in the most northerly and coldest region" .
If Epirotes were kins with other Greeks, then Strabo and other geographers would say that from all the Greeks, Epirotes lived in the most northerly region. But this was not the case. They identified only a part of Thessalians as being Hellenes.
It would be my greatest pleasure to take into consideration this bunch of proofs whenever you decide to express any opinion about Epirus and its people!

Zajaz
20-02-11, 14:22
by the way, I find it as necessary to post again the Herodotus's testimony because it is purposefully ignored by some members here:


137. Now of this Alexander the seventh ancestor was that Perdiccas who first became despot of the Macedonians, and that in the manner which here follows:–From Argos there fled to the Illyrians three brothers of the descendents of Temenos, Gauanes, Aëropos, and Perdiccas; and passing over from the Illyrians into the upper parts of Macedonia they came to the city of Lebaia.

137. τοῦ δὲ Ἀλεξάνδρου τούτου ἕβδομος γενέτωρ Περδίκκης ἐστὶ ὁ κτησάμενος τῶν Μακεδόνων τὴν τυραννίδα τρόπῳ τοιῷδε. ἐξ Ἄργεος ἔφυγον ἐς Ἰλλυριοὺς τῶν Τημένου ἀπογόνων τρεῖς ἀδελφεοί, Γαυάνης τε καὶ Ἀέροπος καὶ Περδίκκης, ἐκ δὲ Ἰλλυριῶν ὑπερβαλόντες ἐς τὴν ἄνω Μακεδονίην ἀπίκοντο ἐς Λεβαίην πόλιν.

Judging by this literary testimony, the Macedonian ethnogenesis is related narrowly with the Illyrians. Herodotus's story makes known the direction of three Macedonian brothers: firstly they fled to the Illyrians...and passing from Illyrians they came in a certain city of Upper Macedonia called Lebaia. So a large portion of what became Macedonia was previously called Ἰλλυριοὺς and its inhabitants as Illyrians.

The long rivalry between Macedonians and Illyrians says nothing about any ethnic difference between them. It was just a conflict to extent the control between strategic points and fertile plains. We have the long warfares between Athens and Sparta and it would be useless to doubt their Greekness.

An another huge mistake that is performed by some members here is the confusion between Argos of Peleponessus and Argos of Orestikon (the real place where Macedonian kings sprung).

To judge more correct the ethnic sameness between Illyrians and Macedonians, we have to compare Upper Macedonians (which were certainly of Illyrian blood) with the highlanders of Pieria mountains (the homeland of Macedones). Despite the fact that they fought for a centuries with one another for hegemony, there was no difference between them in ethnic manner. Illyrians (or Upper Macedonians) were the first people who became part of Macedonian kingdom. Later on, Macedonian kings married with women from that region and during Asiatic campaign of Alexander the Great, a large number of soldiers were recruited from Upper Macedonia.

Neander
20-02-11, 14:33
iapetoc. Thank you very much for you offended me and my nation. It is your "pelasgian" culture.

In your post I don't see any fact only, and ity seems that you don't much about history. Please read ancient authors, from the first to last. Majority of them tell us that Epirotes and Macedonians were barbarians, and that means non-greeks.

Barbarian in the ancient time doesnt means "un-cultured people", because all were cultured, All natios had a kind of script, and wrote anything at least, but barbarian are those who didnt spoke greek.

Even the inhabitants of Aitholia, speak a language which is not understandable - says Herodotus.

Your post is so intermingled with spams, so I dont want to reply anything to your words.

Elias2
20-02-11, 16:18
Hi iapetoc,
It seem obvious that you are clueless about ethnic character of ancient Epirotes. At the same time, your ambitious claim about Epirotes being Greeks does not hold any water because its runs against all literary sources from ancient Greek and Roman writers. Epirotes were never reckoned as genuine Hellenes; ancient historians never hesitate to call them as 'Barbarians' i.e non-Greeks. Instead of making fallacious pretensions, why you don't put forward any proof to back up your claims? I mean do tell us what are the literary sources that indicate any kind of Greekness of Epirotes?
Indeed ancient sources firmly indicate the non-Greekness of Epirus. Take a look at the below quote:



So, Pelasgus (the eponym of Pelasgians, according to other mythical traditions) is said to be one of the first who came in Epirus. Needless to say, that no one consider Pelasgians as Greeks.
Let's go further:


At the Strabo's time the language of Epirus was acknowledged as entirely different from Greek. In addition with this, Epirus wasn't geographically in Greece because the northern confines of Greek world hardly passed Thessaly.

If Epirotes were kins with other Greeks, then Strabo and other geographers would say that from all the Greeks, Epirotes lived in the most northerly region. But this was not the case. They identified only a part of Thessalians as being Hellenes.
It would be my greatest pleasure to take into consideration this bunch of proofs whenever you decide to express any opinion about Epirus and its people!


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

Unlike most other Greeks of this time, who lived in or around city-states (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City-state), the inhabitants of Epirus lived in small villages and their way of life was foreign to that of the poleis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polis) of southern Greece.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-Britannica-0)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-13) Their region lay on the periphery of the Greek world[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-Britannica-0) and was far from peaceful; for many centuries, it remained a frontier (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frontier) area contested with the Illyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian) peoples to the north. However, Epirus had a far greater religious significance than might have been expected given its geographical remoteness, due to the presence of the shrine and oracle at Dodona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona) - regarded as second only to the more famous oracle at Delphi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delphi).
The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Greek) dialect, different from the Dorian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian) of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands, and bearers of mostly Greek names, as evidenced by epigraphy, seem to have been regarded with some disdain by some classical writers. The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides) describes them as "barbarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian#Origin_of_the_term)",[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-14) as does Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-15) Other writers, such as Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus),[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-16) Dionysius of Halicarnassus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_of_Halicarnassus)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-17) Pausanias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_%28geographer%29)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-18) and Eutropius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius_%28historian%29),[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-19) describe them as Greeks. Similarly, Epirote tribes/states are included in the Argive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argos) and Epidaurian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidaurus) lists of the Greek Thearodokoi (hosts of sacred envoys).[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-20) Plutarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch) mentions an interesting element of Epirote folklore regarding Achilles: In his biography of King Pyrrhus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus), he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning unspeakable, unspeakably great, in Homeric Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Greek)).[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-21)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-22)
Beginning in 370 BC, the Molossian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossian) Aeacidae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeacidae) dynasty built a centralized state in Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28ancient_state%29) and began expanding their power at the expense of rival tribes.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-Britannica-0) The Aeacids allied themselves with the increasingly powerful kingdom of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon), in part against the common threat of Illyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) raids,[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-Companion-23) and in 359 BC the Molossian princess Olympias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympias), niece of Arybbas of Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arybbas_of_Epirus), married King Philip II of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-Britannica-0) She was to become the mother of Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great).




I dunno, it sounds like Illyrians where Epirots main enemy.