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Neander
20-02-11, 17:32
Plutarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch) mentions an interesting element of Epirote folklore regarding Achilles: In his biography of King Pyrrhus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus), he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning unspeakable, unspeakably great, in Homeric Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Greek)).[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-21)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-22)It is not unspeakable. But it i "i shpejti" Aspetos in albanian means fast man, which is the first characteristic of Achilles.

Neander
20-02-11, 17:34
I dunno, it sounds like Illyrians where Epirots main enemy. When Kasander took the throen of Aiakides, the 2 years Pirro was exiled to Glaukus Illyrian King. Even when Kasander wanted to kill Glaukus he was not frightened but hold Pirros, and raised him as his son, and helped him to go in the throne.

Enemity between kongdoms, was chenageable, somtimes enemy, somtimes ally.

Elias2
20-02-11, 17:41
When Kasander took the throen of Aiakides, the 2 years Pirro was exiled to Glaukus Illyrian King. Even when Kasander wanted to kill Glaukus he was not frightened but hold Pirros, and raised him as his son, and helped him to go in the throne.

Enemity between kongdoms, was chenageable, somtimes enemy, somtimes ally.

What does that have to do with culture. I think your are making a mistake in using ancient politics to define a people. In latin christiandom princes would marry from all over the continent, but when, say, a Hasberg ruled over spain or france did they stop being french or spanish and became austrian-hungarian? You need to understand politic rhetoric and sepearate it from ethos-identity.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/D70-0404-dodona.jpg/500px-D70-0404-dodona.jpg

The theater of Dodona with Mt. Tomarus in the background.

It looks very greek to me.

Zajaz
20-02-11, 18:33
Unlike most other Greeks of this time, who lived in or around city-states, the inhabitants of Epirus lived in small villages and their way of life was foreign to that of the poleis. of southern Greece



Copy-pasting a piece from WIKI doesn't give much credit, dude! I do not understand how you come up with such biased assertions like the above citation. It is true that the inhabitants of Epirus mostly lived in small villages that is quite different from social organization in Greece. But what this passage fail to mention is that ignore totally the very fact of the same organization in Illyris. For example, even Illyrians shared the same traditions, language, cultural affinities and social organizations with the Epirotes.


Their region lay on the periphery of the Greek world and was far from peaceful; for many centuriesThat's weird! Epirus was excluded by most of ancient geographers from Greece. For many of them, the most northerly confine of Greece hardly surpassed Thessaly (more exactly Peneius river). The below description of Strabo (based on Ephorus account) reject your claims of Epirus as being Greek territory.

Ἔφορος μὲν οὖν ἀρχὴν εἶναι τῆς Ἑλλάδος τὴν Ἀκαρνανίαν φησὶν ἀπὸ τῶν ἑσπερίων μερῶν· ταύτην γὰρ συνάπτειν πρώτην τοῖς Ἠπειρωτικοῖς ἔθνεσιν.

Ephorus says that, if one begins with the western parts, Acarnania (Ambracia Gulf) is the beginning of Greece; for, he adds, Acarnania is the first to border on the tribes of the Epeirotes(Chaonian, Thesprotians, Molossi, Cassiopei.


Achilles: In his biography of King Pyrrhus, he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning unspeakable, unspeakably great, in Homeric)

Wrong! In the original text of Plutarch nowhere is mentioned explicitly 'dialect'. This is more a biased translation of some Phil-Hellenic scholars like Hammond or Errington. They invented such phrase in order to make the language of Epirus as one of the dialects of Greek. This goes against the mainstream opinion of ancient writers who acknowledged the language of Epirotic tribes as 'barbarian'.


Other writers, such as ..., describe them as Greeks.

However, this is a matter of modern interpretation of ancient texts. Many Greek nationalists pick up some vague quotes out of their real content in order to suit to their national agenda for promoting the Greekness of Epirus.

Here is a citation I've got from a little research by Google:


"Philip contracted an alliance with Neoptolemos, king of the Illyrian Molossians, and married his daughter Olympias in 357 B.C".

The McGraw-Hill encyclopedia of world biography, pg.409

iapetoc
20-02-11, 19:19
zajaz Bullshit

Pelasgians is Thera cyclades civilization J2 people who expand in inner balkans

Pelasgic are Thebes in Greece first settlement in continent
Cadmus a phoenician pelasgic was father of Illyrus


ACCEPT IT

THE PELASGIANS WERE NOT ALBANIANS
THE Illyrians ARE PELASGIC
THE GREEKS ARE PELASGIC
THRACIANS ARE PELASGIC
ETRUSCAN ARE BROTHERS OF PELAGIC
CRETANS ARE PELASGIC
the pelasgia is the Thera (island civilization, not the illyrian
Albanian nationalist must face the truth and stop bullshit
Pelasgic is an ancient civilization that gave many nation

IF YOU UNDERSTAND THAT THEN YOU UNDERSTAND THE REST AND WHY EPIRUS OR CHAONIA IS ARCHEGONUS GREECE
Epirotes are the Aeolian Branch of Pelasgian Greek Speaking

if you remember the Makedonians where more understand by Aeolians than from south Doric
Aeolians Pelasgic Greek even today is consider barbaric cause they cut the a e o i and speak extremely fast
Epitotans and thessalians even today speak that way,

In epirus mt Pindus where the cadmeian-illyrian-phoenician people, and The greek IE speakers and were isolated due to rough terrain
But the colonisation and the kingdoms that were build created states

Now i have to repeat again to understand it
Greeks are pelasgian tribe
illyrians are pelasgian tribe
Thracians probably are pelasgian
etruscan are similar to pelasgian
Cretan - minoan is the most clear pelasgic culture
but with Pelasgic does not mean Illyrians
besides if you look where the pelasgic areas are mentioned you will reach today bulgaria (blagoevgrad)
Pelasgic and leleges are ancient cultures
Leleges are the fathers of dorians locri and Makedonians
Pelasgic Aeolian are the father of thessalian and epirotan
the only tribe that exist AND WAS PELASGIC ARE THE DRYOPES, CLEARLY IE TRIBE
oak tree in pelasgian is bala(nos)
oak tree in IE is Dru

the pellai you mention is mt pellion
king pellias in Homer
Makedonian pellios (δεδιωκεται τοισ πελασοιν)
greek palios
what are you saying -> makedonian pellios as epirotan as greek
pellios palllios
what bullshit you say? clear Greek pelasgic

the fact you don't understand is that Illyrians were not the only pelasgic

But pelasgic is the wide Thyrrenian language
which is Illyria Hellas Etruria Troy Crete Phillistines and i beleive thracians, i m sure about some aegean tribes but not sure for more inner north.
Pelasgic comes from pelag means flat and today pelago
By understanding that you will see that greeks are the south pelasgic,
and the IE as many say, simply greek belongs to IE as albanian but only by them selfs
the pelasgic language is something LAtin
spain speaks LAtin
Italy speaks latin
France speak latin
same is the pelasgic,

and plz Albanians Nationalist accept it,
Epirotan spoke Aeolian pelasgian
the fact that spoke pelasgian can put them in Greek -Illyrian-Cretan Etrurian family
besides the only ones that do not accept that Greeks are pelasgic are the albanians nationalist, why?

Glaukus hmmm Glayka the oawl Bird, the holy bird of Greeks
another prove that Illyrians are pelasgic similar the Greeks

Garrick
20-02-11, 21:31
zajaz Bullshit

Pelasgians is Thera cyclades civilization J2 people who expand in inner balkans

Pelasgic are Thebes in Greece first settlement in continent
Cadmus a phoenician pelasgic was father of Illyrus


ACCEPT IT

THE PELASGIANS WERE NOT ALBANIANS
THE Illyrians ARE PELASGIC
THE GREEKS ARE PELASGIC
THRACIANS ARE PELASGIC
ETRUSCAN ARE BROTHERS OF PELAGIC
CRETANS ARE PELASGIC



Iapetoc
What do you think about
the theory of Sergei Rjabichkov who claims

Pelasgian language is one of the dialects of the Slavonic

he showed it in the examples the writing of Linear A, and its decorative version on the Phaistos Disk?

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 21:48
Iapetoc
What do you think about
the theory of Sergei Rjabichkov who claims

Pelasgian language is one of the dialects of the Slavonic

he showed it in the examples the writing of Linear A, and its decorative version on the Phaistos Disk?

it makes sense if R1a is 11500 years old in Balkans and 3000-5000 in rest of Europe as shown by Klyosov...

in fact, the age of R1a in rest of Europe corresponds to spread of E-V13 from Asia minor into Balkan and Europe... which might indicate that it was not very peaceful settlement of neolithic farmers......but about civilization with stronger weapons...

what probably happened is that part of R1a strategically moved to north, obtained better war equipment spread throughout Euroasia, connected with original base in south Sibir and went down all the way to India and Egypt and also into Asia minor...

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251231666063/home/R1a.png


(b) There is no justification in the results of a "Ukrainian refuge" for the R1a1 ancient population allegedly 15,000 years ago; instead, evidence has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia).

(c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),

(d) There are two different groups of Indian R1a1 haplotypes; one shows a good match with the Russian Slavic R1a1 group, having a common ancestor several hundred years "younger" than the Russian R1a common ancestor (4,050±500 vs. 4,750±500 ybp). This supports the idea that a proto-Slavic migration to India as Aryans occurred (mentioned in classic ancient Indian literature) around 3600 ybp. The other Indian R1a population is significantly older, with a common ancestor living 7,125±950 ybp; they could have migrated from South Siberia to South India.

(e) South India Chenchu R1a1 match the current Russian Slavic R1a1 haplotypes, and the Chenchu R1a
common ancestor appeared some 3200±1900 ybp, apparently after the R1a1 migration from the North to
India. Another Chenchu R1a1 lineage originated about
350±350 ybp, around the 17th century CE.
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

Neander
20-02-11, 22:53
In latin christiandom princes would marry from all over the continent, but when, say, a Hasberg ruled over spain or france did they stop being french or spanish and became austrian-hungarian? You need to understand politic rhetoric and sepearate it from ethos-identity.

In fact you must do that. You are bringing the enemity as a fact for thay are different people. Not me, but you !!!


It looks very greek to me. The greeks are those who are not barbarians, and barbarians are those who are not greek. Clearly greeks are those who speak greek. These are only Pelopopnes and a narrow strip land from Ambrakia to Atica. Thessalians are barbarians, Epirotes are barbarians, Macedonians are barbarians. Even thetres are foun in Illyria, but Illyrians are not greek.

Theatre is not greek sign.

Neander
20-02-11, 22:54
in fact, the age of R1a in rest of Europe corresponds to spread of E-V13 from Asia minor into Balkan and Europe... which might indicate that it was not very peaceful settlement of neolithic farmers......but about civilization with stronger weapons... You are disinforming, if I dont say you are lying people.

Ev13 came from Africa, but until there is no Major migration from Africa to Europe after Mesolithic, you cannot say that it came in 4000 bp.

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 23:06
You are disinforming, if I dont say you are lying people.

Ev13 came from Africa, but until there is no Major migration from Africa to Europe after Mesolithic, you cannot say that it came in 4000 bp.
I never mentioned arrival from Africa, but arrival to Europe...
I am not saying that, this paper is:


Our estimated coalescence age of about 4.5 ky for haplogroups E-V13 and J-M12 in Europe (and their CIs) would also exclude a demographic expansion associated with the introduction of agriculture from Anatolia and would place this event at the beginning of the Balkan Bronze Age, a period that saw strong demographic changes as clearly testified from archeological records (Childe 1957; Piggott 1965; Kristiansen 1998). The arrangement of E-V13 (fig. 2D) and J-M12 (not shown) frequency surfaces appears to fit the expectations for a range expansion in an already populated territory (Klopfstein et al. 2006). Moreover, similarly to the results reported by Pericˇ ´ic et al. (2005) for E-M78 network a, the dispersion of E-V13 and J-M12 haplogroups seems to have mainly followed the river waterways connecting the southern Balkans to north-central Europe, a route that had already hastened by a factor 4-6 the spread of the Neolithic to the rest of the continent (Tringham 2000; Davison et al.
2006).
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

but you are right, that estimation might be wrong...
I was just checking this

On the other hand, the expansion times of Hg V13 (Table 3) are consistent with a late Mesolithic time frame. The Greek Mesolithic, although different in its material culture from the Natufian Mesolithic of the Levant, bears some resemblance to the Mesolithic of southern Anatolia.60 This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya, Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately 9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28, suggest an expansion time of approximately 10000 years ago. I
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/?tool=pmcentrez

so, my conclusion about spread of R1a from Balkan caused by E-V13 arriaval seems not to hold...

Neander
20-02-11, 23:11
I never mentioned arrival from Africa, but arrival to Europe...
I am not saying that, this paper is:
Well, we are not blind-minded, just to read a paper, and to believe that.

Ev13 is old here like it is said here:

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v17/n6/full/ejhg2008249a.html

Neander
20-02-11, 23:12
On the other hand, the expansion times of Hg V13
(Table 3) are consistent with a late Mesolithic time frame.
The Greek Mesolithic, although different in its material
culture from the Natufian Mesolithic of the Levant, bears
some resemblance to the Mesolithic of southern Anatolia.
60 This archaeological congruence between the Mesolithic
of the Balkans and southern Anatolia may mirror the
similar E-V13 expansion times observed for Konya,
Franchthi Cave and Macedonian Greece, all approximately
9000 years ago. Moreover, E-V13 YSTR-related data from
Bulgaria and Macedonia,28 both with a variances of 0.28,
suggest an expansion time of approximately 10 000 years
ago.

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 23:15
yes, I found it too as you see above..
as I often use picture from Battaglia's work for frequencies and variance and have searched for it to check their timing after posting.....

Neander
20-02-11, 23:19
yes, I found it too as you see above..
as I often use picture from Battaglia's work for frequencies and variance and have searched for it to check their timing after posting.....
But there is no place for such crazy ideas, that E came to Europe 4000 bp,

The last major migration Africa, Europe occurs in Mesolithic, it was either Ev13 or its predecessor.

Others are bullshits of Russians nazi (Naziskin)

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 23:28
But there is no place for such crazy ideas, that E came to Europe 4000 bp,
The last major migration Africa, Europe occurs in Mesolithic, it was either Ev13 or its predecessor.
Others are bullshits of Russians nazi (Naziskin)

genetists are not so good with time estimates... and people often tend to see what they want to see...

hopefully, one day it will be possible to reconstruct exact paths and timeline of all major branches and subbranches and to map it to history events....
and do not think I have something against E-V13, E-V13 is as good as any haplogroup... Serbia has pretty large amount as well...

but today I read in another thread about spread of E-V13 into Europe 4000-4500 years bp and here I had a thought perhaps that is related to timing for start of expansion of R1a from Balkan that was indicated by Klyosov....
there was no bad intention... it just looked as possible good match between cause and consequence...

Elias2
21-02-11, 00:45
In fact you must do that. You are bringing the enemity as a fact for thay are different people. Not me, but you !!!

The greeks are those who are not barbarians, and barbarians are those who are not greek. Clearly greeks are those who speak greek. These are only Pelopopnes and a narrow strip land from Ambrakia to Atica. Thessalians are barbarians, Epirotes are barbarians, Macedonians are barbarians. Even thetres are foun in Illyria, but Illyrians are not greek.

Theatre is not greek sign.

You need to be more clear, who are differnt people?

And yes you need to understand ancient political rhetoric if you are going to understand the period. Greeks called other greeks barbarians as an insult. There are plenty of archeological evidence that says Epirus, macedonia, were greek.

The theatre is a very greek trademark. Illyrians were not greek, you are correct because if they were they wouldn't be called Illyrians. But that doesn't mean modern day albanians are Illyrians. There is no evidence outside of geographical area to suggest this. And if you just go by geography, Croatians, bosnians, and serbs have just as much right to call themselves Illyrians as albanians do.

iapetoc
21-02-11, 00:55
Neander

with bullshit you can prove nothing

1 Thessalian are the pure Greek speakers and remember that Graikos was born there,
Although I believe comes from the Pellasgic γρουσσα -γλωττα - γρετα (language), and the virb Γρεκω (Ι speak, i unterstand)

Now the Greeks you mentiooned are The Dripoes (Druid-Druop) who were R1a carriers and lived in Phthia
who want it or Not Thessaly is the center of Greek IE language since Driopes lived there, simply the IE and the pelasgic Greek unite to create the language,
Makedonians Epirotans are Greek-Pelasgic,
Berbarian doesnot mean the one who do not speak Greek But
Bark
βαρκιζω virb means Bark -> the one who sounds like Dog's bark when he speak,
in a wide meaning non Greek speakers,

2 about theaters

READ WHO WAS THESPIS AND WERE THE FIRST THEATER WERE BUILD< AND WERE THE FIRST PLAY WERE WRITTEN
I THINK IT IS TIME TO TELL US THAT ARISTOFANES AND EYRIPIDES ARE
Illyrians or thracians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thespis


Cause I am sure that this is what is your next word,

with total deny simply you prove your cyclopean eye


Besides Modern Albanians do not Speak Pelasgic but more Romano-Celtic
Mire jam Clear Celtic Mire
or the Thracian MARI (godess MARA) which is considered slavonic?
the words you give me belongs mostly in ancient Illyrian
now if a connection exist that proves that albanians have connection with Pelasgic Not pelasgic people were albanians
Besides the Connection
Greek ΒΡΥΘ-Ω (doric Βρουτ-ω) Vruth Vrouth
Albanian Bret ( as you said before, i don't claim th correct but in post above you said it)
LEMNEAN PHOENICIAN BRUTAS (Brutas in etrurian Brutus in latin)
so what is the difference why the lemnean can be read only in albanian? and not in raskian
simply cause you are a one eye nationalist Nazi

another
Greek Βι-ωνω Vi-ono past ΕΒΙ-ΩΣΑ eviosa
Rascian past AVIS
LEMNEAN PELASGIAN AVILS
if exist in albanian language then you make the compare
cause I 'm satisfied that Raskian and lemnean can be connected

BESIDES WE ARE NOT CERTAIN IF ILLYRIANS WERE PELASGIC AND SIMILARITY COMES FROM GREEK-PELASGIC COLONIZATION IN ILLYRIA (elements that left)
BUT WE CONNECT ILLYRIA WITH CADMUS SON, ILLYROS A FAR PAST BEFORE MYCENAE KING PELASGIAN WHO INVADE THERE as History wich you Deny (herodotus)
now if Hellenes reunite after the sea people destruction and manage to unite pelasgian tribes again what is your problem?

cause you cannot accept Herodotus whenever you like
simply Herodotus gives the connection of Ill and Ell via Cadmus a phoenician King
as also Herodotus says that Makedonians came from the same place were dorians exist and karamos was an argean




Zajaz
you make the same Mistake with Dejavu
the nation is Hellenes not Greeks

Greeks are the area from agrinio to athens and from corinth to Thessaly
THAT AREA IS GREECE

Hellenes is the nation of 4 Aeolic Doric Ionic Achaic
it is not Greek republic But Hellenic republic
Greek in Greek language means either son of Graikos
EITHER THE VIRD ΓΡΙΚΩ - ΓΡΑΙΚΩ past ΕΓΡΙΚΗΣΑ
means understand and speak
dorric language Γρουσσα (Grico people)
now if ancient doric man asks, do you speak Greek, it should say Γρικας??
Greek is the area not the nation, understand that
The nation is Hellenes

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/GreeceCenGreece.png

That is Greece area the area of Hellanas river
Peloponese Crete Makedonia Thessaly Epirus is Hellas

iapetoc
21-02-11, 01:12
Garrick
Pelasgian elements exist in Bulgarian language,
with the thracologist I speak we found enough
seems that Thracian has a small connection with Pelasgic,
now since exist in one south slavic probably eexists and in other
but it is difficult and risky to place south slavic language to pelasgic
pelasgic were more semitic-Anatolian-Phoenician language from the elements we found in Hommer and later
it seems that odrysse thracian have connection with Hettit Brygian and persian
But the connection of south slavic with pelasgic is uncertain cause the elements are not that many in odryssee as also some other thracians, but it is more clear with Sappean who are close to phoenician,
in bulgaria they spend a lot of money in search for thracians,
But even they, are not that sure if Thracians were clear Slavic speakers, Pelasgic Hettit-Anatolian
it seems that every tribe had its own code,
If you believe in listuistic then buy a good lexicon of etrurian-racian and Homeric and try to find similarities, similarites that connect similar meanings and sounds
like slavian Yam -Yem = eat
in Greek is Θρεφομαι -Τρωω but has a virb Γευομαι Yev-omai which means I taste, i try the food's taste and taste is Γευσις Yev-sis
as you see the main Greek Word and Slavic is not the same, But a similar to eat the virb taste is same root, that is linguistic element
then is the hard to collect how ancient is that word in the language, which areas speak it,
cause that word is either imported or same rooted from an ancient common language


Now about Phaistus is logogram not Hieroglyph, a sign probably as today traffick signs
and it is more Anatolian Luwan-Hettit than Minoan,
probably a sign in merchants area for lydian people

Neander
21-02-11, 01:49
And yes you need to understand ancient political rhetoric if you are going to understand the period. Greeks called other greeks barbarians as an insult. There are plenty of archeological evidence that says Epirus, macedonia, were greek.Wrong!!! Barbarian today is insult but not in the time of greek awncient. Just read the ancient sources, and you will see, that barbarian means those who don't know greek.

For example: Deutch (in german), Nemci (in serbian), in serbian Nemci means "he that cannot speak"

Zajaz
21-02-11, 02:15
THE PELASGIANS WERE NOT ALBANIANS
THE Illyrians ARE PELASGIC
THE GREEKS ARE PELASGIC
THRACIANS ARE PELASGIC
ETRUSCAN ARE BROTHERS OF PELAGIC
CRETANS ARE PELASGIC


May I ask a simple question? If yes...have you read any historical book in your whole life? Because I am afraid you have got no clue what are you talking about. I agree that Pelasgians gave birth to both Illyrians, Thracians, Etruscans, Cretans and Greeks but it seems obvious you aren't able to comprehend the very simple fact: modern Albanians can be considered (not without justice) as being direct descendants of Pelasgians. I am not sure whether you know that the major mainstream of modern historians is that Albanians owe their origin to Illyrians and Thracians. In addition with this, there are a plenty of Pelasgic toponymes, names of gods that can be etymologized by the Albanian. Even the culture of Albanians do represent in a large extent a living Homeric heritage, that has attracted many scholars to deal with it.

But let take aside for a while your obsession with Pelasgians. The topic we are talking for is about ancient Macedonians whether they were Greeks or not. I presented a couple of arguments supporting my idea that Macedonians were just Illyrians and have much more things in common with them rather with Greeks. I'd also to hear your counter-arguments about Epirus and Macedonia as Illyrian lands!?

So can you turn back in topic? Thnx

Elias2
21-02-11, 08:38
Wrong!!! Barbarian today is insult but not in the time of greek awncient. Just read the ancient sources, and you will see, that barbarian means those who don't know greek.

For example: Deutch (in german), Nemci (in serbian), in serbian Nemci means "he that cannot speak"

"The Greeks used the term as they encountered scores of different foreign cultures, including the Egyptians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptians), Persians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_people), Medes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes), Celts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts), Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germania), Phoenicians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicians), Etruscans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization) and Carthaginians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage). It, in fact, became a common term to refer to all foreigners. However in various occasions, the term was also used by Greeks, especially the Athenians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Athenians), to deride other Greek tribes and states (such as Epirotes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29), Eleans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eleans), Macedonians and Aeolic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic)-speakers) in a pejorative and politically motivated manner.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian#cite_note-2) "

"The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides) describes them as "barbarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian#Origin_of_the_term)",[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-14) as does Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-15) Other writers, such as Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus),[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-16)Dionysius of Halicarnassus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_of_Halicarnassus)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-17) Pausanias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_%28geographer%29)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-18) and Eutropius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius_%28historian%29),[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-19) describe them as Greeks. Similarly, Epirote tribes/states are included in the Argive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argos)Epidaurian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidaurus) lists of the Greek Thearodokoi (hosts of sacred envoys).[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-20)"

Then there is the overwhelming archeological evidence that proves epirots and macedons were greeks.I don't know what your trying to prove by trying to de-hellenizing the ancient epirots, hopefull its not the same as FYROM's attempts at trying to de-hellenize the macedons.

Elias2
21-02-11, 08:43
The topic we are talking for is about ancient Macedonians whether they were Greeks or not. I presented a couple of arguments supporting my idea that Macedonians were just Illyrians and have much more things in common with them rather with Greeks. I'd also to hear your counter-arguments about Epirus and Macedonia as Illyrian lands!?


Like what?

Zajaz
21-02-11, 11:37
Like what?

Archeological examinations bring up in light many cultural objects which were same for both people. It is generally accepted that Illyrians held the plain of Emathia into their direct control for centuries and thus their influence is deep rooted in Macedonia. I've seen many helmets used by Macedonian warriors and are similar with those used by Illyrian ones. In the fashion of wearing the mantle and arranging their hair, the Macedonians bore a great resemblance to the Illyrians (Strab. vii. p. 327).

Zajaz
21-02-11, 11:47
Then there is the overwhelming archeological evidence that proves epirots and macedons were greeks.I don't know what your trying to prove by trying to de-hellenizing the ancient epirots, hopefull its not the same as FYROM's attempts at trying to de-hellenize the macedons.

Elias I gave to you an answer hopefully to be taken into consideration. I find as strange why do you avoid to give me your opinion about the points I've argued.

I guess that it's not accurate to use such terms like "de-hellenizing" Epirotes because they were never such. I solely base my opinion into well known accounts and modern sources. The question whether Epirotes were Greek or not is an old question that rose up since the XIX century. I want just to highlight the fact that most of historians argue that Epirus population was not ranked among Greeks and most likely they were akin to Illyrians.
Later on, due to the expansion of Corinthian colonies Epirus begun to felt under the cultural influence of Hellenism but this doesn't mean nothing about their ethnic affiliation which retained Illyrian.

The attempts of FYROM to engage into ancient affairs are mainly motivated by political purposes. There is no other question more discussed among historical circles than Macedonian one. The opinion about non-Greekness of Macedonians it date back to XVIII century onwards and it is still popular among modern scholarship, although there are some other historians who support the Greekness of Macedonians.

iapetoc
21-02-11, 12:25
May I ask a simple question? If yes...have you read any historical book in your whole life? Because I am afraid you have got no clue what are you talking about. I agree that Pelasgians gave birth to both Illyrians, Thracians, Etruscans, Cretans and Greeks but it seems obvious you aren't able to comprehend the very simple fact: modern Albanians can be considered (not without justice) as being direct descendants of Pelasgians. I am not sure whether you know that the major mainstream of modern historians is that Albanians owe their origin to Illyrians and Thracians. In addition with this, there are a plenty of Pelasgic toponymes, names of gods that can be etymologized by the Albanian. Even the culture of Albanians do represent in a large extent a living Homeric heritage, that has attracted many scholars to deal with it.

But let take aside for a while your obsession with Pelasgians. The topic we are talking for is about ancient Macedonians whether they were Greeks or not. I presented a couple of arguments supporting my idea that Macedonians were just Illyrians and have much more things in common with them rather with Greeks. I'd also to hear your counter-arguments about Epirus and Macedonia as Illyrian lands!?

So can you turn back in topic? Thnx


that is the point, Homeric, toponyms, etc can be etymologist by pelasgic Albanian, pelasgic Greek, pelasgic Thracian, and IE language,
as an example I give you the Aspetos, toponym of a city that Elias2 wrote and neander find another meaning
aspetos IE (negative) Α-σπετω = un speech
neander meanind aspetos = runs fast (in greek is no fast)
both are not pelagic although NEander make them pelasgic
un-speak
un-speed
no one is Greek- pelasgic or Albanian pelasgic but clear R1b or R1a
(Germanic) IE, propably it is connected with the Druids (Driopes) that lived in south Thessaly and Phthia, and not to Ill or Ell pelasgic.
same is with homer, Homer spoke aeolian and ionian, ionian is considered clear anatolian-pelasgic and aeolian IE and pelasgic,

Zajaz the wrong approach is that you claim every Pelasgic ot thracian to Illyrian,
same happened by Greek nationalists who even today claim every land as Greece

every theory is wellcome, But every theory can have an answer,

Now lets see the names the toponyms etc

mt Olymp
Ηρακλειον Heraklia
Διον dion
Πυθειον
Αζορος
Πετρα
Μπαλλα Bala
Φυλακαι (σερβια)
Πυδνα
Αιγες
Πελλα
Αλορος
Λειβηθρα
Καρυα
Εδεσσα
Τυρισσα
Σανη
Θερμαι
Αλλαντεια
Ηρακλεια
Ιχναι
Κλιται
Βραγυλαι
Ιδομεναι
Αρναια
Αιανη
Αργος
Αρνισσα
Κελλαι
Βοκεροι
Αργιλος
Στιβερισσα - Στυβερα
Ορεστια
Ελιμεια
Λεβαια
Πλουρινα (clear Semitic-Pelasgic)
Λυγκιστις Λυγκεας
Γκρετις Γκρετιστα
Πελιον
Χρυσονδυον
etc
the Dexaroi Dessarete Greek Tribe and the Dessaroans Illyrian tribe
Mt Νυμφαιο or as the local name it in purpose ΝΕΒΕ ΣΚΑ = NEVE SKA
Mt Τρικκλαριον (area Tricca(la) where makedonians lived in thessaly)
Βιτρινετσι -Βιδρονησι Brygian-Makedonian Bidra (water animal)
Λυχνιτις Lychnitis -> Lin and Ohrid also change n Lyncistis
In Macedonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_language) and the other South Slavic languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavic_languages), the name of the city is Ohrid (Охрид). In Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language), the city is known as Ohër or Ohri. Historical names include the Latin Lychnidus[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrid#cite_note-4) or the Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) names Lychnidos (Λύχνιδος), Ochrida (Οχρίδα, Ωχρίδα) and Achrida (Αχρίδα), the latter two of which are still in modern usage.

Above and west the Lychnitis is the Echeleians which are considered Illyrians, although the name is connected with Greek Acheleians Αχελωοι.
What Illyrians, Cadmus son Created Illyrians and Ψadmus was Pelasgic, and cadmus Cretaed Greeks also
Atalante - Taulante
Echeleians - Achelleians



now lets see the upper makedonia
main states Orestias and Ellimeia,
population of Orestias ArcadoCypriot
population of Ellimeia Mycenean (achaic- which I believe is similar to Gek)
that is why the before Argeans, Ellimeians worship god Eorda
Makedonian Αρδα Arida arda
sanshqrit Jorda
German Erda
the IE name of
Latin Tera
East Thracian Sirris
Greek koine Hera
Arcadic Γεορδα - Γορδιος Δεσμος - Gordian knot
Probably Eordeans were R1 people
In modern Greek godess Arda has words after Hellenistic and not in Attic
like αρδευσις -> irrigate

as you see zajaz Makedonians Argeians were Greeks, as also that
Katadesmoi or defixiones (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defixio) were spells written on non-perishable material
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Pellatab.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pella_curse_tablet

http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9A%CE%B1%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%B4%CE%B5%CF%83%CE%BC%C E%BF%CF%82_%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82_%CE%A0%CE%AD%CE%BB%C E%BB%CE%B1%CF%82

Greek

1. [ΘΕΤΙ]ΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΟΣ ΤΟ ΤΕΛΟΣ ΚΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΓΑΜΟΝ ΚΑΤΑΓΡΑΦΩ ΚΑΙ ΤΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΠΑΣΑΝ ΓΥ2. [ΝΑΙΚ]ΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΧΗΡΑΝ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΘΕΝΩΝ ΜΑΛΙΣΤΑ ΔΕ ΘΕΤΙΜΑΣ ΚΑΙ ΠΑΡΚΑΤΤΙΘΕΜΑΙ ΜΑΚΡΩΝΙ ΚΑΙ3. [ΤΟΙΣ] ΔΑΙΜΟΣΙ ΚΑΙ ΟΠΟΚΑ ΕΓΟ ΤΑΥΤΑ ΔΙΕΛΕΞΑΙΜΙ ΚΑΙ ΑΝΑΓΝΟΙΗΝ ΠΑΛLΙΝ ΑΝΟΡΟΞΑΣΑ4. [ΤΟΚΑ] ΓΑΜΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΑ ΠΡΟΤΕΡΟΝ ΔΕ ΜΗ ΜΗ ΓΑΡ ΛΑΒΟΙ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΓΥΝΑΙΚΑ ΑΛΛ Η ΕΜΕ5. [ΕΜΕ Δ]Ε ΣΥΝΚΑΤΑΓΗΡΑΣΑΙ ΔΙΟΝΥΣΟΦΩΝΤΙ ΚΑΙ ΜΗΔΕΜΙΑΝ ΑΛΛΑΝ ΙΚΕΤΙΣ ΥΜΩΝ ΓΙΝΟ6. [ΜΑΙ ΦΙΛ]ΑΝ ΟΙΚΤΙΡΕΤΕ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΕΣ ΦΙΛ[Ο]Ι ΔΑΓΙΝΑΓΑΡΙΜΕ ΦΙΛΩΝ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΕΡΗΜΑ ΑΛΛΑ7. [....]Α ΦΥΛΑΣΣΕΤΕ ΕΜΙΝ Ο[Π]ΩΣ ΜΗ ΓΙΝΕΤΑΙ ΤΑ[Υ]ΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΚΑ ΚΑΚΩΣ ΘΕΤΙΜΑ ΑΠΟΛΗΤΑΙ8. [....]ΑΛ[-].ΥΝΜ .. ΕΣΠΛΗΝ ΕΜΟΣ ΕΜΕ ΔΕ [Ε]Υ[Δ]ΑΙΜΟΝΑ ΚΑΙ ΜΑΚΑΡΙΑΝ ΓΕΝΕΣΤΑΙ9. [-]ΤΟ[.].[-].[..]..Ε.Ε.Ω[?]Α.[.]Ε..ΜΕΓΕ [-] [edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pella_curse_tablet&action=edit&section=4)] English

1. Of [Theti]ma and Dionysophon the ritual wedding and the marriage I bind by a written spell, and of all other2. wo[men], widows and maidens, but of Thetima in particular, and I entrust upon Makron* and3. [the] demons. And that only whenever I dig out and unroll and re-read this,4. [then] may they wed Dionysophon, but not before; and may he never wed any woman but me;5. and may grow old with Dionysophon, and no one else. I [am] your supplicant:6. Have pity on [Phil?]a*, dear demons, for I am Dagina* of all my dear ones and abandoned.7. But please keep this for my sake so that these events do not happen and wretched Thetima perishes miserably8. but let me become happy and blessed.


THE ILLYRIANS YOU MENTION ARE IN THE BORDERS OF MAKEDONIA,
simply Pelasgic greek Arcadocypriot achaic and aeolian the Upper Makedonian
simply Thettalian Doric and aeolian the argean Makedonia, simply thraco-Pelasgic the east Makedonia,


Makedonians Dynasty came from Doric Aiginion are Ishtiaiotis of Thessaly, and manage to Unite all Greek Pelasgic areas

ZAJEZ
read that carefully
The Dassaretae (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Δασσαρέται), or Dexaroi, (Greek: Δεξάροι) were an ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_people)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-Hammond-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-1) tribe of Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29) on the border with Illyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria) near Lake Ohrid.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-2) They were the northern-most subtribe of the Chaonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-WSmith-3) Theopompus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopompus) writes of fourteen Epirotian tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Dexaroi were a part. The geographer Hecataeus of Miletus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecataeus_of_Miletus) of the 6th century BC described the Dexaroi, the most northern Chaonian tribe, as a Greek-speaking people. Their cities were Pellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellion), Antipatrea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipatrea), Chrysondyon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysondyon), Gertous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertous) (or Gerous) and Creonion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creonion).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-4)
An Illyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian) tribe of the same or similar name laid further north between the Dardani (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardani) and the Ardiaei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ardiaei), which is often confused with that of the Dassaretae of the (Greek) Chaonian group.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-5)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-6)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-8)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-9) This is confirmed by the fact, which Appian of Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appian_of_Alexandria) described in his [I]"Illyrian wars" and namely, according to the Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology), Illyrius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius), the ancestor of the Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), had a daughter, Dassaro, from whom sprang the Illyrian tribe of Dassaretae (or Dasaretii).[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi#cite_note-10)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexaroi
what Epirotans barbarian as Neander says,
EPIROTANS from Apeiros (Chaos-Chaonia)
WERE GREEK AND NOT ILLYRIAN Speaking
simply when Christians slain Greeks, Illyrians inhabited Greek areas to replace the empty,
as with attica arbanites 1100 1200 AD after Byzantine 1rst and latin 2nd invitation. and the Normand invasion as the alliance of Serbs with Albanians against Epirus Despotate time dehellenized area, which today has only relicks of older Hellenes.


Thank if you read it.


Even Slavic Makedonians who want to change boarders mention Cadmus and Lychnitis
and respect the Aegean to them MAkedonia, Greek face of Makedonia to them, simply they dream of an utopian Makedonian state with 2-3 languages and churches, that is not possible,
that is why Greek accept the Geographical term Makedonia but not the Nationality and the relation with Ancient Makedonia, and names that state as Slavic Makedonia.
only Albanians deny it and say that Dorians were Illyrians MAkedonians are Illyrians and Epirotans are Illyrians, just for nationalistic reasons.

simply it is more easy to unite Greek and Albanians (except religion) than to unite Greeks and Turks
as is more easy to unite Fyrom with Bulgaria or Serbia than I2a Romania with Bulgaria.
so nationalists spread bullshit just in case they grow,


And about modern Albanians Have more Romano-celt R1b than R1a
they are More Romans Than Anatolian,
simply albanians are not more Pelasgic than Greeks,
Just Albanians pushed the Pelasgic issue that became Idealistic
and Greeks don't pushed it, cause it is believed as Understandably.
in fact the claim that Albanians are the origin Pelasgian is ridiculous
What Would Cretans say who were the heart of Pelasgic.

iapetoc
21-02-11, 16:24
Neander
Ematheia is sandy,
In fact there are areas with 85% sand
sand is from 0,5 mm to 1,5 mm
coccometrical analysis in the soil gives from 40-70% sand and 10-15 Clay,
the fertility has to do with water and sea lavel, in Fact mountain Makedonia is not fertile at all due to pure minerals, and big Ca concentration, the bless is the the rivers and not the soil, cause of the betonit (coloidal Argilus) the soil keeps some water in surface, cause sand dont keep at all,
betonit is plant strangle in lands with high Ca, but sand help and the colloidal is not that strong, I know cause I m Phd Civil Hydraylic Engineer,
and I have been in Albania to make search for water plants in 1998 and 2004,
simply the Hydro plants Auth, after NATO demand, designed for river Devul (Δεβολης) today are a triger to corruption in Tirrana. you know the story,
Believe me 4 rivers area without sand nowhere in the world
so if you don't Believe me ask a civil Engineer in your country,
Ematheia Pieria Sindos Chalastra is full of sand,
in fact in analysis I made for river Αισωνας Πιερια sand reach 98% in the deep flux and 64% at the bangs in some points with 0,002-6 deviation

Elias2
21-02-11, 17:15
Elias I gave to you an answer hopefully to be taken into consideration. I find as strange why do you avoid to give me your opinion about the points I've argued.

I guess that it's not accurate to use such terms like "de-hellenizing" Epirotes because they were never such. I solely base my opinion into well known accounts and modern sources. The question whether Epirotes were Greek or not is an old question that rose up since the XIX century. I want just to highlight the fact that most of historians argue that Epirus population was not ranked among Greeks and most likely they were akin to Illyrians.
Later on, due to the expansion of Corinthian colonies Epirus begun to felt under the cultural influence of Hellenism but this doesn't mean nothing about their ethnic affiliation which retained Illyrian.



Actually Epirots were hellenes, as I discuessed with our other friend, and you both seem to want to connect genetics with culture which are two very differnt things. Being Hellenic back then had really no bearing on genetics and more of the way of living, which of course you know I hope.

Elias2
21-02-11, 17:30
I guess that it's not accurate to use such terms like "de-hellenizing" Epirotes because they were never such.

Are you joking? I'll just repost this;

"The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Greek) dialect, different from the Dorian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian) of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands, and bearers of mostly Greek names, as evidenced by epigraphy, seem to have been regarded with some disdain by some classical writers. The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides) describes them as "barbarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian#Origin_of_the_term)",[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-14) as does Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-15) Other writers, such as Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus),[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-16) Dionysius of Halicarnassus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_of_Halicarnassus)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-17) Pausanias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_%28geographer%29)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-18) and Eutropius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius_%28historian%29),[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-19) describe them as Greeks. Similarly, Epirote tribes/states are included in the Argive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argos) and Epidaurian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epidaurus)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-20) Plutarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch)Pyrrhus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus), he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning lists of the Greek Thearodokoi (hosts of sacred envoys). mentions an interesting element of Epirote folklore regarding Achilles: In his biography of King unspeakable, unspeakably great, in Homeric Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeric_Greek)).[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-21)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-22)"



I solely base my opinion into well known accounts and modern sources. The question whether Epirotes were Greek or not is an old question that rose up since the XIX century. I want just to highlight the fact that most of historians argue that Epirus population was not ranked among Greeks and most likely they were akin to Illyrians.

If what you say are true, what does that have to do with culture?



Later on, due to the expansion of Corinthian colonies Epirus begun to felt under the cultural influence of Hellenism but this doesn't mean nothing about their ethnic affiliation which retained Illyrian.

are you tring to say the epirots thought of themselves as Illyrians? a term that was invented by the greek Illyrius? source please, beacuse I have seen sources that listed them as hellenic.

"The Molossian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossian) Aeacidae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeacidae) dynasty managed to create the first centralized state in Epirus from about 370 BC onwards, expanding their power at the expense of rival tribes. The Aeacids allied themselves with the increasingly powerful kingdom of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedon), in part against the common threat of Illyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28ancient_state%29#cite_note-Companion-6) and in 359 BC the Molossian princess Olympias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olympias), niece of Arybbas of Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arybbas_of_Epirus), married King Philip II of Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon). She was to become the mother of Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great). On the death of Arybbas, Alexander the Molossian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_of_Epirus), uncle of Alexander the Great (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great) of Macedon, succeeded to the throne with the title King of Epirus.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28ancient_state%29#cite_note-7) raids,"

It seems that the Illyrians were diffenatly not regarded as epirot or macedon, even by themselves.



The attempts of FYROM to engage into ancient affairs are mainly motivated by political purposes. There is no other question more discussed among historical circles than Macedonian one. The opinion about non-Greekness of Macedonians it date back to XVIII century onwards and it is still popular among modern scholarship, although there are some other historians who support the Greekness of Macedonians.

There are some to support the greekness of macedon? um, do you know that alexander spread hellenism in the middle east? There is a letter signed to Mr. Obama with over 120 signatures of professors of classics saying that macedons were greeks. I believe them over anyone's opinion I read over the internet.

http://macedonia-evidence.org/obama-letter.html

You like alot of other people are making a very simple mistake. You think genetics defines a people, which is rasict at the very core, when it's really culture that does. To be a hellenes it didn't matter what your DNA was (they didn't even know what that was), what matter is that you adopted the greek way of llife, which the epirots did, and so did the macedons. Therefore they were both hellenic people.

Zajaz
21-02-11, 20:49
If what you say are true, what does that have to do with culture?


I was saying that Epirotes either culturally or ethnically bore great resemblance with Illyrians. Their Hellenism wasn't original but it was introduced with the establishing of Corinthian colonies into Epirus coast. If Epirus was a Greek land, then why would Greeks need to colonized their own land?


You like alot of other people are making a very simple mistake. You think genetics defines a people, which is rasict at the very core, when it's really culture that does.You're confusing me with other members because I've little knowledge on this field. I also agree that Genetics sometimes passes into racism...so it is a very delicate field to deal with. So I deliberately avoid from taking any position regarding genetics. When I decide to deal with ancient matters I do this only by using historical texts and archeological evidences.

Here I shall present a couple of more recent discoveries regarding cultural affinities of the Epirots:


'In October 1984, 70 historians and archaeologists from Greece, Albania, Romania, Italy and several other countries of Europe convened in Clermont-Ferrand, France. They held a colloquium with a group of Specialists in ancient history who were working there under the direction of Proffesor Pierre Kaban, the renowned expert on Epirus. They compared studies on the tribal and ethnic groups which gradually organised into urban life, then federated into state organisations. They compared juridical institutions such as family right of ownership, the role of the woman in the family and the procedure in freeing slaves. Similarities of Epirotes centers like Dodona and those of Southern Illyria were evidenced by the layout, architecture, and political organisation, also the circulation of coins, the structure of groves, the burial rites and articles found in the tumuli. But scholars concluded that from early antiquity until the Roman times THAT CULTURE OF SOUTHERN ILLYRIA AND EPIRUS, INCLUDING MOLOSSIA, WAS QUITE DIFFERENT FROM THAT OF CLASSICAL GREECE AS FOUND IN ATHENS AND SPARTA' (Jaques 1995:80/81)

Bibliography:

Edwin.E.Jaques 1995 'The Albanians: An ethnic history from prehistoric times to the present'
are you tring to say the epirots thought of themselves as Illyrians? a term that was invented by the greek Illyrius? source please, beacuse I have seen sources that listed them as hellenic.We will never know accurately how Epirotes perceived themselves because there were quite different conditions to define ethnic identity in ancient times quite different from modern ones. We know for certain that from all Epirotes only ruling elites tried to link themselves with Greek genealogies...which for the sake of truth was very fashionable among ancient peoples. I am going to present a well-informative text written by Britanic experts:


Epirus

The territory of Epirus was the mountainous coastal region of modern north-western Greece and southern Albania. To the north was Illyria and to the east Macedonia. To the Greeks the Epirotes were barbarians, although their ancestry was Dorian. Epirus was a poor land, rich only in warriors. The dominant tribe of Epirus were the Molossians.

His Family

The only Epirotes whom the Greeks regarded as Greek were the Aeacidae, royal house of the Molossians. Pyrrhus was a member of this family. The Aeacidae claimed descent from Achilles. Olympias, wife of Philip II of Macedon and mother of Alexander the Great, was an Aeacidae princess; making Pyrrhus a cousin of Alexander. In 334BC, when Alexander the Great began his conquest of the Persian Empire, the King of Epirus, Alexander the Molossian (uncle of Pyrrhus), attempted to conquer southern Italy. In 331BC he died in battle against the Romans. He was succeeded by Aeacides, father of Pyrrhus, but in 317BC Aeacides was driven from Epirus by a rebellion2. After this Epirus became a tribal federation instead of a kingdom.

His Early Career

His Path to a Throne

Glaucias, King of Illyria, gave sanctuary to Pyrrhus as a child, and placed him on the throne of Epirus when he was twelve. He allied himself with Demetrius, son of Antigonus I3 of Macedon. In 302BC, whilst absent from his kingdom, he was dethroned by a palace coup and replaced by a kinsman Neoptolemus4. Lacking a kingdom, he fought for Demetrius in Syria, earning himself a reputation as a brave and talented warrior. Sent to Alexandria as a hostage under the terms of the peace treaty between Demetrius and Ptolemy I Soter5, he was befriended by Ptolemy, who restored him to the throne of Epirus in 297BC. Initially Pyrrhus shared his throne with Neoptolemus but soon had him assassinated. His rule in Epirus was absolute from now on.


There are some to support the greekness of macedon? um, do you know that alexander spread hellenism in the middle east? Let me inform you for an another analogy that refute your claim: Irish emigrants who came together with other English in North America spoke English but Irish aren't English anyway. If Alexander the Great spread Greek culture in all corners of known world this speaks little about his ethnicity which is believed to be non-Greek. At least, ancient texts says so.


There is a letter signed to Mr. Obama with over 120 signatures of professors of classics saying that macedons were greeks. I believe them over anyone's opinion I read over the internet.Yes I know but this doesn't mean that all of them are major academics regarding ancient Macedonian matters. Many of them haven't made any research into Macedonian ethnogenesis so it would be quite ridicule to base on them. I can list also a number of modern scholars who says the contrary of your claim.

iapetoc
21-02-11, 23:52
I was saying that Epirotes either culturally or ethnically bore great resemblance with Illyrians. Their Hellenism wasn't original but it was introduced with the establishing of Corinthian colonies into Epirus coast. If Epirus was a Greek land, then why would Greeks need to colonized their own land?

Actually that is almost true , Illyrians a major part of them are Pelasgic and
Epirotans are Pelasgic Also, But Epirotans were Greeks
YOUR PROBLEM IS THAT YOU DENY THAT GREEKS ARE PELASGIC AND YOU ONLY ACCEPT THAT PELASGIC = ALBANIAN, WELL THAT IS MISTAKEN.
the most original Pelasgic if we can use that term are minoan Cretan or eteo-Cretans

But as you see in my posts even in area of Ohrid Greek language was spoken,
The colonisation has to do with Merchantise,
as an example I give you the colony of Phasis in Georgia, an alone city which was a Huge merchant area, In fact that city was Build by Greeks and was protected By all Colchians even after Christianity times,
The Greeks Build colonies not only to dwell in some areas But mainly to push emporio (trade) in other kingdoms with out the inner land taxes and fear of bandits,
in roman times it is estimated that 1 000 000 Greeks (wide historical Greece) lived aboard ships from Spain to Azotos and from Black Sea to Egypt,
the ship ruins in Kythera is a ship that could live more than 200 people, a living floating village,
In fact in Makedonia Greeks also send colonies to push merchant,
Atheneans build colonies in the Heart of Makedonia, cities like Olynthos
and Ennea Dromoi just to trade minerals

now the Hellenization,
ALTHOUGH YOU CALL ME UNHISTORICAL AND GO READ A BOOK AS YOU TOLD ME
I SEND YOU THIS

The Dassaretae (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Δασσαρέται), or Dexaroi, (Greek: Δεξάροι) were an ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_people)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexari#cite_note-Hammond-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexari#cite_note-1) tribe of Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29) on the border with Illyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria) near Lake Ohrid.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexari#cite_note-2) They were the northern-most subtribe of the Chaonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexari#cite_note-WSmith-3) Theopompus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theopompus) writes of fourteen Epirotian tribes, speakers of a strong west-Greek dialect, of which the Dexaroi were a part. The geographer Hecataeus of Miletus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecataeus_of_Miletus) of the 6th century BC described the Dexaroi, the most northern Chaonian tribe, as a Greek-speaking people. Their cities were Pellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellion), Antipatrea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipatrea), Chrysondyon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysondyon), Gertous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertous) (or Gerous) and Creonion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creonion).[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexari#cite_note-4)

simply Chaonia from Chaon of Troy
According to Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo), the Chaonians (along with the Molossians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians)) were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, because they once ruled over the whole of Epirus.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians#cite_note-Book_VII.2C_Chapter_7.5-2) The Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians)Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_Pseudo-Scylax)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians#cite_note-3) occupied the coastal and hinterland regions further north; however, the makes a clear distinction between the Chaonians and the Illyrian tribes.

ok I am uhistorical or the books I read are wrong,

Besides even Arian IF YOU EVER READ HIM GIVES THE CONNECTION OF UPPER MAKEDONIA WITH GREEKS,

Understand it Glaukias was an enemy of Makedonians that is why he mixed in Epirus, in order to change alliances of Epirus with Makedonia,
Gkaukias and Alketas is political against Kassandros and not national


And about Alexander was Argean
Now if to you Argean or Spartan Or Cretan or Mollosean is Not Greek Cause is not From Area of Graikos the Greece , you are right,
Spartans Molloseans Cretans etc are not Greeks


THEN I AGREE WITH YOU
ALEXANDER WAS NOT GREEK

ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΣ WAS HELLENAS ELL

in fact the biggest among all Ελληνες
Spartans Molossean Cretan etc


THE LANGUAGE OF ALEXANDER

and remember Irish went to USA which officially language was English
Irish emigrants spoke english cause they were not the rulers,
Argeans were the rulers, why to change the language
HOW MANY KINGS CHANGE THE LANGUAGE OF PEOPLE,
MOST TIMES KINGS CHANGE LANGUAGE AND NOT THE PEOPLE

King Otto when came to Greece he learned Greek, he did not push people to learn German as he was

The kings learn the people Language not the people

Simply a wrong example, the irish and the English,
cause it is more wise to kings change language and speak the Pella language, than the whole kingdom to change language
that arguement is not correct and drops to thrash can


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Pellatab.jpg

The above is the Makedonian low class language
Clear Hellenic.
so even in low class people spoke Hellenic

no scholar, no man, no God can change it
MAKEDONIANS LOW CLASS SPOKE HELLENIC

THERE CAN NOT BE A BIGGER PROVE

Elias2
22-02-11, 04:09
I was saying that Epirotes either culturally or ethnically bore great resemblance with Illyrians. Their Hellenism wasn't original but it was introduced with the establishing of Corinthian colonies into Epirus coast. If Epirus was a Greek land, then why would Greeks need to colonized their own land?

Well, it was the corinthians colonizing epirot land. They didn't see it as greek colonizing greek but city state colonizing city state. Alot of inter city state war happened in those days.


You're confusing me with other members because I've little knowledge on this field. I also agree that Genetics sometimes passes into racism...so it is a very delicate field to deal with. So I deliberately avoid from taking any position regarding genetics. When I decide to deal with ancient matters I do this only by using historical texts and archeological evidences.

You say this but then later in your post say to me alexander wasn't greek beacuse of his genetics and not his culture, so which side do you take, genetics defines a people or culture?




We will never know accurately how Epirotes perceived themselves because there were quite different conditions to define ethnic identity in ancient times quite different from modern ones. We know for certain that from all Epirotes only ruling elites tried to link themselves with Greek genealogies...which for the sake of truth was very fashionable among ancient peoples.

ok, but the people did speak greek; "The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Greek) dialect, different from the Dorian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian) of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands, and bearers of mostly Greek names, as evidenced by epigraphy, seem to have been regarded with some disdain by some classical writers."


Let me inform you for an another analogy that refute your claim: Irish emigrants who came together with other English in North America spoke English but Irish aren't English anyway. If Alexander the Great spread Greek culture in all corners of known world this speaks little about his ethnicity which is believed to be non-Greek. At least, ancient texts says so.

What ancient texts? I have seem some that he himself says he is greek by decent, born from greek gods, so you can't just accept some and ignore others, if he himself says he is greek what else do you want? It seems you do define people by genetics, which is one way to look at things but I don't see things that way. Your analogy is interesting, if you sub the irish for macedons and southern greeks as english, but they're both british arn't they? It was the british empire or the english empire? In Canada, if the Canadians want to be pariotic about their heritage, they fly the Union Jack (British Flag) and not the english or Irish flag. Then there is quebec lol


Yes I know but this doesn't mean that all of them are major academics regarding ancient Macedonian matters. Many of them haven't made any research into Macedonian ethnogenesis so it would be quite ridicule to base on them. I can list also a number of modern scholars who says the contrary of your claim.

Acutally they are classic professors who specialize in the time period and have gotten their PhD's, so they do indeed know what they are talking about.

It seems you take the position of genetic identification of peoples, which is a debunked theory. Northern French arn't genetically the same as southern french. Northern spanish are different then southern spanish. Northern italians/southern Italians. Northern albanians are diferent then southern albanians. The same can be said for every country around the globe. If it doesn't matter today why does it matter in ancient times?

If you want to discuss the ancient hellenes, which, I hope you agree with me here, is more of a cultural identification (ethos) and not a genetic label, then you have to aknowledge that epirots and macedons, dispite that they might of been genetically different from southern greeks, were hellenic people. I don't think its odd that there were illyrian elements either, they boarder each other, but epirots were not Illyrian, Epirots formed an alliance with macedons to prevent raid from Illyria.

And if I may, can I ask you what your definition is of being Illyrian? If we are going to talk about what is Illyria. It is a geographical definition? Ancient Illyria comprised what is now northern albania, croatia, Bosnia,Montenegro, and serbia.

iapetoc
22-02-11, 04:39
just a delete post

Neander
22-02-11, 15:50
It is simple: As Isokrati says Hellens are not still a nation, it is a culture. Then this culture was not only ofr greeks, but of Illyrians Epirotes, Macedonians, Romans, etc.

It was a mix of thracian (Bendida, Dyonis), Illyrian (Zeus), greek, anatolian (Cybela), Asiatic (Alphabet), etc.

It was not only greek, it was a mediterranean civilization which include many peoples, many nations.

Even dorians were somewhere from Illyria and they hed a lot of illyrian words in their dialect. Today dorians "Tzakones and Sfakiots" are of the same race (dinaric) as are Albanians.

Carlton Coon speak of single origin of Montenegrins, Albanians and Dorians.

As for how they became Hellens I have told in another thread. Hellenic language was a deviation of Pelasgian, which is more akin to todays Albanian. Therefore, I said you, the balkan historian which doesnt know albanian language, is a Blind Historian.

Epirotes were not greeks, even if they had some theatres which you identify as greek architeture.

For example we know that all Civilization of todays Balkan (roads, solyters, TV, Radio, Computer), come from the west....

... but please!!!!!

We are not french, we are not english, we are not americans.

We are Balkan peoples. Even that we have computers, radio, TV, etc.

Don't mix civilization with ethny.

Clearly Zajaz has said that Epirotes were akin to Illyrians, because so say ancient writers. If you don't believe ancient writers, then, what you believe???

Zajaz
22-02-11, 16:12
Well, it was the corinthians colonizing epirot land. They didn't see it as greek colonizing greek but city state colonizing city state. Alot of inter city state war happened in those days.
Well...let for the sake of argument admit that Epirotes were Greeks and when Corinthians started colonization they were colonizing the land of any other city-state. Could you tell me to which city-state belong Epirus prior Corinthian expansion? N.G.L. Hammond who is one of the greatest supporters of Epirotes being Greeks is forced to accept that:

Known in the ‘Iliad’ only for the oracle of Dodona, and to Herodotus for the oracle of the dead at Ephyra, Epirus received Hellenic influence from the Elean colonies in Cassopaea and the Corinthian colonies at Ambracia and Corcyra, and the oracle of Dodona drew pilgrims from northern and central Greece especially...
Tell me why is that oracle of Dodona received Hellenic influence from the Elean and Corinthian colonies if it was Hellenic from its beginning? This is a very telling fact that witnesses about its non-Greekness.

You say this but then later in your post say to me alexander wasn't greek beacuse of his genetics and not his culture, so which side do you take, genetics defines a people or culture?
I firmly stand for the culture (ethnicity) as primary criterion in determining the identity of one people. In culture we have to include all social traits that shape the inner identity of one people (customs, religion, the way of life, dress, architecture, etc). But before all, I base my opinion especially in the language they had spoken. Judging from what I've read for many years of my studies I can safely conclude that most of available sources says that Macedonian wasn't understood from Greeks. This goes also for the language of Epirotes.

What ancient texts? I have seem some that he himself says he is greek by decent, born from greek gods, so you can't just accept some and ignore others, if he himself says he is greek what else do you want?
Don't you find as strange why Alexander the Phillhellene, though he claimed himself as a Greek, wasn't allowed to participate in Olympic games because he was a barbarian. He was permitted to join in the games only when he invented fictively a genealogy which allegedly consider him as sprung from a Greek hero.

hey boarder each other, but epirots were not Illyrian, Epirots formed an alliance with macedons to prevent raid from Illyria.

Since when the formation of alliances determine the ethnic identity of one people? I may tell you the reverse side of the coin:

The Epirotes were thus unexpectedly preserved: but so far from trying to retaliate on those who had wronged them, or expressing gratitude to those who had come to their relief, they sent ambassadors in conjunction with the Acarnanians to Queen Teuta, and made a treaty with the Illyrians, in virtue of which they engaged henceforth to co-operate with them and against the Achaean and Aetolian leagues. All which proceedings showed conclusively the levity of their conduct towards men who had stood their friends, as well as an originally shortsighted policy in regard to their own interests.

As you can see, Epirotes sent ambassadors in conjunction with the Acarnantias to Queen Teuta and signed a treaty with them to fight against Achean and Aetolian leagues. I think your claim that Epirotes were always allies of Greeks against Illyrians cannot sustain.


And if I may, can I ask you what your definition is of being Illyrian? If we are going to talk about what is Illyria. It is a geographical definition? Ancient Illyria comprised what is now northern albania, croatia, Bosnia,Montenegro, and serbia.

The basic definition of being Illyrian should be the language. Illyrians were all of Western Balkan tribes who spoke akin dialects (of the same language) and share the same origin, culture and social organization. This doesn't mean either that Illyrian wasn't geographical definition because many tribes were tagged as Illyrian (by ancients) only because they were living within Illyria but in fact they were of Celtic origin.

Elias2
22-02-11, 17:15
You take ancient inter-city state politics way too seriously when trying to prove your stance, which is your biggest flaw. I don't take ancient political rhetoric too seriously and focus more on the cultural aspects of a society and archeological evidence which is inherently unbiased.


"Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic) times, when hunters and shepherds inhabited the region and constructed large tumuli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumuli) to bury their leaders.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28ancient_state%29#cite_note-0) Mycenean tombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_period) present in the region indicate an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenean civilization.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28ancient_state%29#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28ancient_state%29#cite_note-2) Certainly, Mycenean remains have been found in Epirus, especially at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromanteion) (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron) river, and the Oracle of Zeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) at Dodona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona).[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28ancient_state%29#cite_note-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28ancient_state%29#cite_note-4)
The Dorians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorians) invaded Greece from Epirus and Macedonia at the end of the 2nd millennium BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2nd_millennium_BC) (circa 1100 BC-1000 BC), though the reasons for their migration are obscure. The region's original inhabitants were driven southward into the Greek mainland by the invasion and by the early 1st millennium BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_millennium_BC) three principal clusters of Greek-speaking tribes had emerged in Epirus. These were the Chaonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians) of northwestern Epirus, the Molossians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians)Thesprotians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesprotians) in the south.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28ancient_state%29#cite_note-CAH-5)"



If I can be very blunt, there only place I see the word Illyria used when I read about Epirus is when they describe the baordering peoples.


I think its time we turn our attention onto Illyria and what that is about if we are talking about them. You say that epirots and macedons were Illyrian. Your main identifier is language, which I think is a poor thing to lean on since the Illyrian language is very uncertain because the lack of primary evidence (written/archeological). I'm going to open a seperate thread about Illyria and I'm looking foward to your contributions to the upcomming discussions.

Elias2
22-02-11, 17:35
It is simple: As Isokrati says Hellens are not still a nation, it is a culture. Then this culture was not only ofr greeks, but of Illyrians Epirotes, Macedonians, Romans, etc.

It was a mix of thracian (Bendida, Dyonis), Illyrian (Zeus), greek, anatolian (Cybela), Asiatic (Alphabet), etc.

It was not only greek, it was a mediterranean civilization which include many peoples, many nations.

Even dorians were somewhere from Illyria and they hed a lot of illyrian words in their dialect. Today dorians "Tzakones and Sfakiots" are of the same race (dinaric) as are Albanians.

Carlton Coon speak of single origin of Montenegrins, Albanians and Dorians.

As for how they became Hellens I have told in another thread. Hellenic language was a deviation of Pelasgian, which is more akin to todays Albanian. Therefore, I said you, the balkan historian which doesnt know albanian language, is a Blind Historian.

Epirotes were not greeks, even if they had some theatres which you identify as greek architeture.

For example we know that all Civilization of todays Balkan (roads, solyters, TV, Radio, Computer), come from the west....

... but please!!!!!

We are not french, we are not english, we are not americans.

We are Balkan peoples. Even that we have computers, radio, TV, etc.

Don't mix civilization with ethny.

Clearly Zajaz has said that Epirotes were akin to Illyrians, because so say ancient writers. If you don't believe ancient writers, then, what you believe???

You contradict yourself but starting off saying Hellenes was a mediterranian culture then proceed to say Epirots where not hellenic people because of genetics, something unrelated to each other. How were epirots not hellenic? did they speek greek? yes, are the traditional indicators of hellenic culture found in epirus (archeological evidence)? yes.

I believe ancient writers but when it comes to ancient politics you can't think of it as unbiased. I like to look at culture and archeological evidence for more unbiased opinions. You link illyrians with modern day albanians. Please say why in the thread I just opened named "Illyria".

Neander
22-02-11, 18:55
You contradict yourself but starting off saying Hellenes was a mediterranian culture then proceed to say Epirots where not hellenic people because of genetics, something unrelated to each other. How were epirots not hellenic? did they speek greek?
Absolutely NO. They talk illyrian. Even when Glaukus raised Pyrrhus as his child, they talk illyrian to eachother.

But as Isokrati says, The hellenic is no more matter of ethniocity

So if you say Epirotes were greeks, you must say for all others, Illyrians, Thracians, Romans etc.

Zajaz
22-02-11, 19:38
You take ancient inter-city state politics way too seriously when trying to prove your stance, which is your biggest flaw. I don't take ancient political rhetoric too seriously and focus more on the cultural aspects of a society and archeological evidence which is inherently unbiased.



In fact, I was trying to convince you that ancient alliances tells nothing about the ethnic identity of one people. For this purpose, I cited Polybius's abstract to inform you that Epirotes made alliances even with Illyrians...not always with the Greeks as many believe.


I'm going to open a seperate thread about Illyria and I'm looking foward to your contributions to the upcomming discussions.

It would be pleasure to contribute in that thread!

DejaVu
22-02-11, 19:45
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus
Pyrrhus or Pyrrhos (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Πύρρος, Pyrros; 319/318 BC—272 BC) was a Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks) general and statesman of the Hellenistic era (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hellenistic_civilization). He was king of the Greek tribe of Molossians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Molossians), of the royal Aeacid house (from ca. 297 BC), and later he became King of Epirus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Epirus_(ancient_state)) (306-302, 297-272 BC) and Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon) (288-284, 273-272 BC). He was one of the strongest opponents of early Rome (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_Republic). Some of his battles, though successful, cost him heavy losses, from which the term "Pyrrhic victory (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pyrrhic_victory)" was coined.

Pyrrhus was the son of Aeacides (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aeacides_of_Epirus) and Phthia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Phthia_of_Epirus), a Thessalian woman, and a second cousin of Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great) (via Alexander's mother, Olympias (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Olympias)). Pyrrhus was only two years old when his father was dethroned, in 317 BC, his family taking refuge with Glaukias (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/King_Glaukias), king of the Taulantians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Taulantii), one of the largest Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrians) tribes. Pyrrhus was raised by Beroea (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Beroea_of_Epirus), Glaukias's wife and a Molossian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Molossian) of the Aeacidae (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aeacidae) dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Glaukias
Glaucias (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Γλαυκίας) was prince or king of the Taulanti (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Taulanti), one of the Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyria) tribes.
Glaucias is first mentioned as bringing a considerable force to the assistance of Cleitus of Dardania (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cleitus_of_Dardania), another Illyrian prince, against Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great), in the battle of Pelium (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Pelium)335 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/335_BC). They were, however, both defeated, and Cleitus was forced to take refuge within the Taulantian territories, whither Alexander did not pursue him, his attention being called elsewhere by the news of the revolt of Thebes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thebes,_Greece). (Arrian, i. 5, 6.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleitus_of_Dardania
Cleitus the Illyrian (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Κλείτος) was the grandson of Bardyllis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bardyllis). The ancient historian Arrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arrian) states that the chieftain Cleitus sacrificed three boys, three girls and three rams just before his battle with Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great).Cleitus and his Dardanians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dardanians_(Balkans)) had occupied a Macedonian border fortress (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hill_fort) , Pelium (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pelium) just before he arrived but despite this and the aid of Glaucias of Taulanti (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Glaucias_of_Taulanti) they lost.

Elias2
22-02-11, 22:37
Absolutely NO. They talk illyrian.

"The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Greek) dialect, different from the Dorian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian) of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands,"

Neander
22-02-11, 22:54
"The Epirotes, speakers of a Northwest Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Greek) dialect, different from the Dorian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dorian) of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands," Who says that?? Herodotus or Wikipedia??

DejaVu
23-02-11, 00:13
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_(ancient_state)
Epirus has been occupied since at least Neolithic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Neolithic) times, when hunters and shepherds inhabited the region and constructed large tumuli (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tumuli) to bury their leaders. Mycenean tombs (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mycenaean_period) present in the region indicate an ancestral link between Epirus and the Mycenean civilization. Certainly, Mycenean remains have been found in Epirus, especially at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Necromanteion) (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Acheron) river, and the Oracle of Zeus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Zeus) at Dodona (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dodona).

The Molossian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Molossian) Aeacidae (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aeacidae) dynasty managed to create the first centralized state in Epirus from about 370 BC onwards, expanding their power at the expense of rival tribes. The Aeacids allied themselves with the increasingly powerful kingdom of Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon), in part against the common threat of Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrians) raids, and in 359 BC the Molossian princess Olympias (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Olympias), niece of Arybbas of Epirus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arybbas_of_Epirus), married King Philip II of Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Philip_II_of_Macedon). She was to become the mother of Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great). On the death of Arybbas, Alexander the Molossian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_of_Epirus), uncle of Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great) of Macedon, succeeded to the throne with the title King of Epirus.

In antiquity, Epirus was settled by the same nomadic Hellenic tribes that went on to settle the rest of Greece. Unlike most other Greeks of the time, who lived in or around city-states (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/City-state) such as Athens (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Athens) or Sparta (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sparta), the Epirotes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Epirotes) lived in small villages and their way of life was foreign to that of polis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Polis) of southern Greeks. Their region lay on the edge of the Greek world and was far from peaceful; for many centuries, it remained a frontier (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Frontier) area contested with the Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrian) peoples of the Adriatic coast and interior. However, Epirus had a far greater religious significance than might have been expected given its geographical remoteness, due to the presence of the shrine and oracle at Dodona - regarded as second only to the more famous oracle at Delphi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Delphi).

The Epirotes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Epirotes), though apparently speakers of an epichoric Northwest Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Northwest_Greek) dialect, different from the Dorian of the Greek colonies on the Ionian islands, and bearers of mostly Greek names, as evidenced by epigraphy, seem to have been regarded with some disdain by some classical writers. The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thucydides) describes them as "barbarians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Barbarian#Origin_of_the_term)", as does Strabo (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Strabo). Other writers, such as Dionysius of Halicarnassus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dionysius_of_Halicarnassus), Pausanias (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pausanias_(geographer)) and Eutropius (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Eutropius_(historian)), describe them as Greeks. Simon Hornblower (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Simon_Hornblower) interprets the vague, and sometimes even antithetical, comments of Thucydides on the Epirotes as implying that they were neither completely "barbarian" nor completely Greek, but akin to the latter. N.G.L. Hammond (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Nicholas_Hammond_(historian)) opines that the principal social structure of the Epirotes was the tribe and that they spoke a West-Greek dialect.
Plutarch (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Plutarch) mentions an interesting cultural element of the Epirotes regarding Achilles. In his biography of King Pyrrhus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pyrrhus_of_Epirus), he claims that Achilles "had a divine status in Epirus and in the local dialect he was called Aspetos" (meaning unspeakable, unspeakably great, in Homeric Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Homeric_Greek)).

Elias2
23-02-11, 06:02
Who says that?? Herodotus or Wikipedia??

Well if you are insinuating that when Herodotus described them as barbarians then they are emediatly Illyrian? What about the other Hellenic writers that define them Hellenes? do you just discard them because it doesn't suit you? And they did speak a north-western greek dialect, I have no idea where you thought they spoke Illyrian when there is no archeological evidence to support this, while there are plenty of primary evidence to describe them as hellenic.

I think this is more of a case of I see what I would like to see and not what is in front of me.

iapetoc
23-02-11, 11:45
Well it seems

that some read about Thukididis fanatic Ionian and Demosthenes,
BUT NEVER READ THEOPOMPUS HEKATEUS OF MILETEUS AND PSEUDOSKYLLAX

First the Mollosian

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/EpirusMycynaen.jpg

As you see Mycenean Culture,
or the Myceneans were illyrians also ..... (cause someone that makes Alexander Albanian can make them also)
A number of Mycenaean remains have been found[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirotes#cite_note-7)[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirotes#cite_note-8) in Epirus, especially at the most important ancient religious sites in the region, the Necromanteion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Necromanteion) (Oracle of the Dead) on the Acheron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acheron) river, and the Oracle of Zeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) at Dodona (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dodona).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirotes#cite_note-Britannica-0)

So Mollosean were Greeks



2 the Chaonians
lets see
Epeirus - Apeirus -CHAONIA
in fact Epeirus means Chaonia

now lets see the Chaonians
According to Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo), the Chaonians (along with the Molossians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians)) were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, because they once ruled over the whole of Epirus.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians#cite_note-Book_VII.2C_Chapter_7.5-2) The Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) occupied the coastal and hinterland regions further north; however, the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_Pseudo-Scylax) makes a clear distinction between the Chaonians and the Illyrian tribes.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians#cite_note-3) The Illyrians and Chaonians appear to have had — at least at times — a confrontational relationship; Polybius recounts a devastating raid mounted in 230 BC by the Illyrians against Phoenice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenice), the chief city of the Chaonians. The incident had major political ramifications. Many Italian traders who were in the town at the time of the sacking were killed or enslaved by the Illyrians, prompting the Roman Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic) to launch the first of the two Illyrian Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_Wars) the following year.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians#cite_note-4)

Other terms for office were grammateus (Greek: Γραμματέυς, "secretary"), demiourgoi (Greek: Δημιουργοί, "creators"), hieromnemones (Greek: Ιερομνήμονες, "of the sacred memory") and synarchontes (Greek: Συνάρχοντες, "co-rulers").

The Chaonians claimed that their royal house was of Trojan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troy) descent, asserting ancestry through the eponymous hero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_hero_cult) Chaon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaon) (Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_language): Χάων) who gave his name to Chaonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonia). The stories are unclear as to whether he was the friend or the brother of Helenus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helenus), the son of Priam (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Priam) of Troy, but in either case, he accompanied him to the court of Neoptolemus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoptolemus), the son of Achilles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles) who was credited with founding the city of Buthrotum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buthrotum)

According to Hekateus of Miletues (600 BC) CHAONIANS AND DEXRI SPOKE GREEK

the Illyrians
the only Illyrian Tribes that share land with Epeirus were Amantes and Bylliotes who Hellenized at time around 400-200 BC

The clear Illyria strarts above Chaonia

The Epirus at it most Glory times

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Epirus_antiquus_tabula.jpg

and Zeus was born In Crete that why Europa maid In Crete
Myceneans were not Illyrians but Mess people (E-V13)
and Pelasgic is similar to Ionian J2b similar to tosk and achaic is similar to gek similar to E-V13

In fact Doric were pelasgic Thettalians
Illyrians and Greeks are after Pelasgic cultures
simply another Alliance who created its own culture and language and Greeks created another culture and Language.
Cadmus sons and Pelasgic people first created Theba and after Illyria
Illyrians became satem due to nearby Thracians and Greeks stayed in centum,
Illyrians are connected with Messapic language and Greeks with Anatolians

Garrick
23-02-11, 20:41
Iapetoc
Yes. Nationalism and fundamentalism tries against science, but fortunately science progresses.
It has a very interesting observation on the research Dienekes about haplogroups Arbres in Italy, where E is expressed but there is almost no J, also Dienekes gave another material on the time of origin specific populations in Balkans carriers of E haplogroup, both would make sense for this discussion about Epirotes.

Zajaz
23-02-11, 21:22
According to Hekateus of Miletues (600 BC) CHAONIANS AND DEXRI SPOKE GREEK


This doesn't hold any water because Hecateus of Miletues did not left any written account (it has been vanished in the course of centuries) but many old writers cited pieces of Hecateus to elaborate anything. I bet that Hecateus never said that Chaonians were Greeks or something like that. He just said that Dexari were one of north-eastern Chaonian sub-tribes.


the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_Pseudo-Scylax) makes a clear distinction between the Chaonians and the Illyrian tribesActually Ps-Scylas says nothing about any ethnic distinction between Illyrians and Chaones. The biggest error you celebrate is citing selective phrases that suits to your claim.


ΧΑΟΝΕΣ. Μετὰ δὲ Ἰλλυριοὺς Χάονες. Ἡ δὲ Χαονία ἐστὶν εὐλίμενος· οἰκοῦσι δὲ κατὰ κώμας οἱ Χάονες. Παράπλους δ' ἐστὶ Χαονίας ἥμισυ ἡμέρας.

translation

CHAONES. AFTER the Illyrians, Chaonians. Chaonia has good harbours: the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day As you see the only distinction if we may call, is geographical and not ethnical. Even Liburnians (whose Illyrian being is admitted unanimously by most of historians) are portrayed as 'distinct' from Illyria. Does this means that they were not Illyrians?


22. ILLYRIOI. And after Libyrnians are the Illyrian nation, and the Illyrians live along beside the sea as far as Chaonia by Kerkyra, the island of Alkinoös.But let's go some lines below. Ps-Scylax wrote as well:


33. AMBRAKIA. And after Molottia, Ambrakia, a Hellenic city: and this is distant from sea 80 stades. And there is also upon the sea a fort and an enclosed harbour. From here Hellas begins to be continuous as far as Peneios river and Homolion, a city of Magnesian territory, which is beside the river. And the coastal voyage of Ambrakia is of 120 stades.It cannot be more clear than that. Hellas begins from Ambracia, which was the first Hellenic city. All of Epirus has been excluded from Hellas.


the Illyrians
the only Illyrian Tribes that share land with Epeirus were Amantes and Bylliotes who Hellenized at time around 400-200 BCHow do you come up with that conclusion? You're avoiding all the proofs we accumulated here that proves an Illyrian affiliation of the three main tribes of Epirus. If Molossians were at least related to Greeks, then explain me why Ps-Scylax differentiated them from Hellenes:


ΑΜΒΡΑΚΙΑ. Μετὰ δὲ Μολοττίαν Ἀμβρακία πό-
λις Ἑλληνίς·

AMBRAKIA. And after Molottia, Ambrakia, a Hellenic city

iapetoc
23-02-11, 21:53
Iapetoc
Yes. Nationalism and fundamentalism tries against science, but fortunately science progresses.
It has a very interesting observation on the research Dienekes about haplogroups Arbres in Italy, where E is expressed but there is almost no J, also Dienekes gave another material on the time of origin specific populations in Balkans carriers of E haplogroup, both would make sense for this discussion about Epirotes.

Garrick what do you mean?

Garrick
23-02-11, 23:28
Garrick what do you mean?

Iapetoc
This about Arbreshe haplogroups is extremely important discovery that approaches the explanation of where the Albanians could come in the recent past.

Arbreshe emigrated to the Italy in 15th and 16th century.


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html)


Look at this table:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TCs7IF2KuhI/AAAAAAAACfw/3ldKuf3iq9s/s1600/arbereshe.jpg (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/TCs7IF2KuhI/AAAAAAAACfw/3ldKuf3iq9s/s1600/arbereshe.jpg)

1) Haplogroup I

I-M170 is the most common Balkan haplogroup (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and the second most frequent Arbereshe clade. Nevertheless, analysis of its network reveals unexpected results: most of the Arbereshe I-M170 haplotypes are not included in the Balkan cluster (Figure 3), but are located in the long branches containing mainly Italian chromosomes. Comparisons with literature data (Semino et al. 2000; Barac et al. 2003, Rootsi et al. 2004) show that the core haplotype of the Balkan cluster (16-14-15-13-31-24-11-11-13; locus order as above) is consistent with the almost Balkan exclusive I2a (formerly I1b) clade. The proposed interpretation of the Arbereshe as a proxy of the founder Albanian population leads us to hypothesize that the I2a clade was less common in the southern Balkans 500 years ago than nowadays. The very tight shape of the I2a cluster in the network suggests a very recent expansion of this haplogroup in the southern Balkans. Furthermore, I2a is still rare in
mountain populations such as the Albanians of Kosovo (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and in a randomly selected Arbereshe sample from Rootsi et al. (2004).

Dienekes discovered that I among Arbreshe is the Italian and that is not connected with the Balkan I2a which led to the assumption that the I2a once in the Albanian population was still less than today.

Cit.

“The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.”


2) Haplogroup J

The situation with J2 is also quite interesting as this is rarer in Arbereshe (3%) than Albanians (17%).
The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans. Literature data on J2 indicate that most of the haplotypes included in the Balkan (B) cluster of the network (Figure 3) have an STR configuration consistent with the J2-M12 sub-clade (Di Giacomo et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004; Cruciani et al. 2007). In contrast, most of the haplotypes in the other clusters agree with the STR configuration given for the J2-M67 clade, with its sub-clade J2-M92 (Di Giacomo et al. 2004). It is unconvincing to attribute the rarity of J2 in the Arbereshe to random sampling or to the effect of genetic drift. Furthermore, the Arbereshe sample analysed by Semino et al. (2004) also completely lacks the typically Balkan J2-M12 chromosomes. If we interpret our Arbereshe sample as representative of the founding Albanian population, we may hypothesize that the J2 haplogroup was considerably less diffuse in the southern Balkans five centuries ago than today.
Dienekes think that in recent times occurred Albanization Greeks because Arbreshe almost have no Haplogroup J(!) and most J carriers in the Balkans is among the Greeks.

Cit.

"The source of J2 is less clear, and could be either the Albanization of Greeks (the only Balkan population with a sizeable J2 frequency) or remnants of Muslim Anatolians from Ottoman times. However, modern Albanians belong mainly to clade J2b, while Anatolians belong to J2a. Thus, I tend to dismiss the Anatolian connection."

Conclusion
Dienekes thinks that the Albanians have only relatively recently come from a mountainous area and that this norteast Balkan, might any mountain part of Romania.

This means that Epirotes and others on the South Western Balkans are no Albanians.

Dienekes at one another post arguments explained that he thinks the Illyrians are not the ancestors of Albanians.

DejaVu
24-02-11, 00:08
The thread is about Macedonians and not Illyrians.

iapetoc
25-02-11, 04:23
Zajaz
read PROVES

Bylliones

Bylliones (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language),"Βυλλίονες") was an Illyrian tribe[24] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_tribes#cite_note-23) They were affected by a partial cultural Hellenisation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenisation).[25] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_tribes#cite_note-The_Cambridge_Ancient_History_1994.2C_page_423-24)

^ a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_tribes#cite_ref-The_Cambridge_Ancient_History_1994.2C_page_423_24-0) b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_tribes#cite_ref-The_Cambridge_Ancient_History_1994.2C_page_423_24-1) c (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_tribes#cite_ref-The_Cambridge_Ancient_History_1994.2C_page_423_24-2) d (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_tribes#cite_ref-The_Cambridge_Ancient_History_1994.2C_page_423_24-3) The Cambridge Ancient History, Volume 6: The Fourth Century BC by D. M. Lewis (Editor), John Boardman (Editor), Simon Hornblower (Editor), M. Ostwald (Editor), ISBN 0521233488 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:BookSources/0521233488), 1994,page 423, "Through contact with their Greek neighbors some Illyrian tribe became bilingual (Strabo Vii.7.8.Diglottoi) in particular the Bylliones and the Taulantian tribes close to Epidamnus"


what else you want

Chaonia was Greek Bylliones and amantes were illyrians

Zajaz
28-02-11, 22:22
Zajaz
read PROVES
what else you want Chaonia was Greek Bylliones and amantes were illyrians


Let's take aside for a moment this issue which has been very discussed in recent pages of this read. Since our primary discussion is about Macedones, I'd like to ask you if you have any detailed info where and when is attested this Macedonian word:


Batra.
Another possibly non-Makedonian word, found between other words beginning with the same first letter in Hysixio's manuscripts, meaning most likely the house, the place of fire same as the Greek word Estia. I couldn't find anything concrete! Do you know where is exactly used this word in Hesychiu's lexicon?

iapetoc
01-03-11, 02:47
ok

your answer

Batra -> Bathra th as thought and Athra

Bathro
is the foundation, the sacrifice ceremony of the rooster and also the family root
The patriarchical system deep root is batro βαθρο
comes from deep, far beyond but also the root of the tree and the foundation
Athra
A-nthrak-as is the coal for fire ανθρακας not burning
A-nthrak-is or ia is the hot ashes of fire place finshed burning, not burning
Thrak-ia is the burning red coals, today word is Carbun-o (Carbon)
Thrak-a is the object that you burn coals, you light Fire
modern is turkish mangkal - Brazier

in Fact still you make the same mistake
cause the ancient Makedonian word could be Phathra
In fact it is similar with today modern Greek Photia -> fire

syn Pharos -> lighthouse
Pha-thra the light that comes from fire


In which edition you find it?
cause the only official by Royal Danish academy is still to letter T and not Φ
ph= Φ
so probably you have not from royal Danish academy, then from where?

Estia is the godess that helps Pyr not to turn off,
Estia is also the warmness, the feeling of Gathering, the eat together, the area you barbeque,
BUT NOT FIRE.
Fire is
Pyr Πυρ
Photia Φωτια (fire for light)
Flox flame ΦλοΞ
Thraka etc (no flame fire and cinder and fire place)
Anthrax not burn carbon

Tzaki from Jestia (simmilar kallas language) fire place
Jestia is simmilar to ESTIA
as an example
Jeste -> Zesti Ζεστη = warm to body temperature
Jeei-> Ζεει = hotter than body temperature Ουτος Ζεει = Ηe got Fever
Jei -Ζει (zi) = has body temperature - HE IS ALIVE (not cold)
if delete e Jestia -> Tza +ki modern fire place for woods (the structure)

Is it in royal Danish academy Lexicon?

in Fact Makedonian Language is a small connection from southern Greek to Thracian
if south slavic is Thracian

Zajaz
01-03-11, 14:53
your answer
Batra -> Bathra th as thought and Athra
Bathro
is the foundation, the sacrifice ceremony of the rooster and also the family root The patriarchical system deep root is batro βαθρο
comes from deep, far beyond but also the root of the tree and the foundation
Athra

Thank you very much for providing such correct information! Actually I knew that 'Bathra' meant something close to fire/sacrifice/light etc, but however I wasn't so sure.

in Fact still you make the same mistake
cause the ancient Makedonian word could be Phathra
In fact it is similar with today modern Greek Photia -> fire
I saw this word for the first time in Wikipedia and I wanted to know much more about its etymology because it wasn't elaborated properly. I find as strange why now is deleted by the editors of Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language
...but the text was as following:

Batra.
Another possibly non-Makedonian word, found between other words beginning with the same first letter in Hysixio's manuscripts, meaning most likely the house, the place of fire same as the Greek word Estia.
Then I searched this word in many ancient Greek dictionaries but I couldn't find what I wish.

n which edition you find it?
cause the only official by Royal Danish academy is still to letter T and not Φ
ph= Φ
so probably you have not from royal Danish academy, then from where?
I found in the following edition of Heychius's account. Its underlined with yellow color "βατρα"
http://books.google.com/books?id=fMMPAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR144&dq=%CE%B2%CE%AC%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B1+hesychius&hl=en&ei=9-psTf_zOcXesgagpejRBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B1&f=false

iapetoc
01-03-11, 20:36
in

http://books.google.com/books?id=fMMPAAAAQAAJ&pg=PR144&dq=%CE%B2%CE%AC%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B1+hesychius&hl=en&ei=9-psTf_zOcXesgagpejRBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%CE%B2%CE%B1%CF%84%CF%81%CE%B1&f=false

the word is Βατρα-χις not batra, possily someone forget the - or did not see it
the words for fire are -thra- athrak probably comes from far ancient atra or patra(rch) p-> V vatra, the family fire, The word Anthrax-kos is far ancient,
I don't know if comes from a pre-culture
If is Greek and became northern Balcanic
or if it is Thracian or Illyrian
But
Pater = Father
Patrian Patran the traditional patriarchic (from fathers descend)
Bathra is the deep, the foundation, the root
(a)thra (atra) is synonym to fire

Cleopatra Κλεοπατρα (patriarchical Glory, The Glorius fathers or Father's Glory)
Patris (homeland country)

In homeric we see nostos
nostos nost-algia nost-emon νοστος νοσταλγια νοστιμον
nostos the return home, the memories of home, the wiiling to go back to child age in home
nost-algia algia from algos (=pain) the sentimental pain to go back
nost-emon emon(=mine) today tasty, but means, reminds me home food, my mom's food
n-ost- probaly is connected as en+est(ia) ->nest ->nost
nost is the will to return to nest
althouth some have connected with en+aust (in exile) German ost en+ost
I can not tell which is more correct
simply en+ost (aust) is more IE seems more correct in nostalgia and nostos (pain to return back)
en+est is more Greek and seems more correct in word nostemon (mother's food) Νοστιμον
caution tasty food has 2 words
Nostemon -> tasty as my mother's food
Ευγεστον Eygeston tasty, can be eaten, good taste (-Γε- probably Yem slavic eat or Armenian Hum taste, German Gesmack albanian shije,, but we found it in far ancient as Geysis Γευσις (taste, sour salty sweet etc) so the connection could be far beyond even to PIE



Batra-chis (the yellow mark) is the frog the bretkoce (female)
syn
Pontic Greek Φορθακ-α female Forthak-a
Cretan Αφορθακος male Aforthakos
Φορθυξ -Φορθυγoς Forthyx-gos female
Βοθρυξ-γος Vothryx-gos female
Bothrakas male
etc

archaiocapilos
21-03-11, 00:06
Iapetoc don't try to debate with Albanians on linguistic stuff they think that modern Albanian is closer to archaic Greek than modern Greek and they base their arguments on Greek and Latin loanwords now used in Albanian,in Indo-European types still preserved in it or simply in fake etymologies. They can't even understand that Albanian is a satem language while ancient Greek like modern are centum.

how yes no 2
22-03-11, 03:14
now about the bull

I mentioned that cause
Bolos
Bol
Bo
Bolinthros
same BOL

but muschar and telec
meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos


actually, there is word Vol/Vo in Serbia
it is about ox

while bull is "bik"
it's about being male or not male bull
distinction between V sign and 3-finger salute
look for more details at
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=368536#post368536

Elias2
25-03-11, 15:20
This is an interesting article on FYROM:

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/survey-macedonia-s-youth-wants-to-leave-country

DejaVu
20-04-11, 13:04
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior.jpg)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior304.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior304.jpg)
http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior305.jpg (http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx190/TM2_album/Macedonians/Nineteenth%20Cent%20Maks/NassauSenior305.jpg)

Who is Nassau William Senior???
http://www.offalyhistory.com/article...862/Page1.html


http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/dakin.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/dakin.png)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/dakin133.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/Miscellanius%20Mak%20Stuff/dakin133.png)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_ofsKG4Jlu5I/R3anKH01bAI/AAAAAAAAAPg/9k3v3d-jy04/s1600/unitedmacedoniamapimageqs9.jpg


The Historic Map of Greece, printed by the Greek Parliament, which includes parts of today's Albania and Turkey, and also prints several toponyms in today's Macedonia in Greek language.
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_6nvZlnqI5gs/R1AERUdCMOI/AAAAAAAACZk/530SyluvArs/s1600-R/greater-greece.jpg
The map is taken from a Greek irredentist site (enotitanpride.tripod.com/ellada), which claims all these territories as "Greek". The site, among other things, calls for war to "reunite" Macedonian southern provinces with Greece.

While the Greek government keeps talking about the "expansionist propaganda of Macedonia against Greece", no one bothers to discuss the way Greece threats territorial matters. The map, printed in 2000 by the Parliament, has a legend saying "The Unification of Greece".

DejaVu
20-04-11, 13:14
The lion has always been a symbol of Macedonia and the Macedonians, the relation among all of the symbols concerning Alexander and Macedonia as perceived during the Medieval period "cannot be denied".


The coat of Alexander Macedonian is present in european tradition since 14th century. It is part of group ''nine worthy'' and it is shown in five manuscript. Most time it is present like golden lion on red platform-field.

Nine Worthies (Alexander the Great) - 14th Century
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5301/onepyx.png (http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/5301/onepyx.png)
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6559/grbotnaaleksandaryl0.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/6559/grbotnaaleksandaryl0.jpg)

Nine Worthies (Alexander the Great)
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4488/twop.png (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4488/twop.png)

Korenich Rolls (Macedonia) - 16th Century
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6268/threeu.png (http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6268/threeu.png)

Ohmucevic Rolls (Macedonia) - 17th Century
http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4461/fouro.png (http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/4461/fouro.png)

VMRO Symbol (Macedonia) - 20th Century
http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6286/fiveg.png (http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6286/fiveg.png)


The first three are Christian kings, the second Pagan and the third Jewish kings.
http://www.shadowedrealm.com/forum/uploads/1194887394/gallery_22_123388.jpg

Nine Worthies as females in which case the Pagan one's are Lucretia, Veturia and Virginia; Christian are Helena of Constantinople, Bridget of Sweden and Elizabeth of Hungary; and the Jewish are Esther, Judith and Jael.
http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/5600/an0005hf2.jpg

Folios 2&3 Julius Caesar & Alexander the Great
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9381/alexgreatgrb.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/9381/alexgreatgrb.jpg)
From the book - The Slains Roll
http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1333/coverqgy.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/1333/coverqgy.jpg)
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4640/titlepage.jpg (http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/4640/titlepage.jpg)

http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5798/slainsnineworth.jpg (http://img21.imageshack.us/img21/5798/slainsnineworth.jpg)


Coats of Arms from Bavarian Library Armorial, 1530

Konnig Allexander von Macedonien
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S1N6XSiRrXI/AAAAAAAAD04/kowk-9S0dFA/s1600/new-5.PNG

Alexander Magnus
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S17KNemN_TI/AAAAAAAAES4/TPPW2-Q0x_8/s1600/new-5.PNG

Alexander Magnus
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S1TwYZ18esI/AAAAAAAAD6o/cpwvqUGrcso/s1600/new-7.PNG

Der macedonisschen Konig
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S1N9e9y50pI/AAAAAAAAD1A/O03x0O7duOo/s1600/new-2.PNG

Der Konig von macedonien
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S1N9fUYg48I/AAAAAAAAD1I/wV5i14n769I/s1600/new-3.PNG

Alexander Magnus
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S1TwY8wvazI/AAAAAAAAD6w/zkt_95C2288/s1600/%D1%99%D1%99%D1%99%D1%99%D1%99%D1%99%D1%99%D1%99%D 1%99.png


Take a look at the lion on the flag and the shield:
It's a book from 1541 with poems.
http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/ARHIV/Alexander_Poet-1541CoatofArms.jpg (http://i561.photobucket.com/albums/ss59/ARHIV/Alexander_Poet-1541CoatofArms.jpg)
This famous poem is known as "Alexandreis, sive Gesta Alexandri Magni" writen by Walter of Châtillon (also known as GAUTIER DE LILLE, GUALTERUS DE INSULIS, or GAUTIER DE CHATILLON, GUALTERUS DE CASTILLIONЕ)

http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?ti...r_of_Chatillon (http://oce.catholic.com/index.php?title=Walter_of_Chatillon)

He lived in the end of ХII till the first half of XIII century.

Here is more info about the book

http://books.google.com/books?id=kh4...age&q=&f=false (http://books.google.com/books?id=kh47_xfyU2wC&printsec=frontcover&dq=The+Alexandreis&source=bl&ots=xXRV0Rq7Qd&sig=aKAVu5YueuRO7ljTgsuF54vZTN4&hl=en&ei=L_hqS7j1LY74sgOEp92cAw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAcQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false)

http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Ch.../gua_intr.html (http://www.hs-augsburg.de/~harsch/Chronologia/Lspost12/Gualterus/gua_intr.html)


http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2683/1591.png (http://img718.imageshack.us/img718/2683/1591.png)

http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypld...s=20&pos=7&e=w (http://digitalgallery.nypl.org/nypldigital/dgkeysearchdetail.cfm?trg=1&strucID=341066&imageID=495477&total=53&num=0&word=Alexander%2C%20the%20Great%2C%20356%2D323%20B %2EC&s=3&notword=&d=&c=&f=2&k=0&lWord=&lField=&sScope=&sLevel=&sLabel=&imgs=20&pos=7&e=w)

The edition we see upper is dated 1541 published by Alexander Weissenhorn in the edition "Alexandreidos Galteri Poetae Clarissimi, libri decem"

DejaVu
22-04-11, 01:17
http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/DaveTTevaD/1845TheLiteraryGazetteAndJournalOfTheBellesLettres ArtsSciencescPage102.png (http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/DaveTTevaD/1845TheLiteraryGazetteAndJournalOfTheBellesLettres ArtsSciencescPage102.png)
The Literary Gazette and Journal of the Belles, Lettres, Art Sciences &c 1845 Page 102

http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/DaveTTevaD/1807TheLiteraryPanoramaVolume2CharlesTaylorSeptemb er1031.png (http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/DaveTTevaD/1807TheLiteraryPanoramaVolume2CharlesTaylorSeptemb er1031.png)
The Literary Panorama Volume 2 Charles Taylor 1807 September page 1031


http://i644.photobucket.com/albums/uu163/DaveTTevaD/1854IntroductionToHeraldryPage2.png
An introduction to heraldry: containing the origin and use of arms; rules for blazoning and marshalling coat armours; the English and Scottish regalia; a dictionary of heraldic terms; orders of knighthook, illustrated and explained; degrees of the nobility and gentry; tables of precedency, etc., titles and duties of great officers of state; and of the officers of the College of arms, etc., and a new chapter on heraldry as in conjunction with architecture ...

Hugh Clark, Thomas Wormull H. Washbourne, 1854 Page 2



Coat of arms of Alexander the Great from 16th century

In the middle
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S24t6_coHjI/AAAAAAAAEpY/aR6bzsbOp34/s400/new-4.PNG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S24t6_coHjI/AAAAAAAAEpY/aR6bzsbOp34/s400/new-4.PNG)

First from left
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S24t8arOXXI/AAAAAAAAEpg/jR7fBmrKpxI/s400/new-5.PNG (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S24t8arOXXI/AAAAAAAAEpg/jR7fBmrKpxI/s400/new-5.PNG)

http://www4.slikomat.com/10/1025/91y-PORT-0.jpg

http://www4.slikomat.com/10/1027/ega-df-hau.jpg (http://www4.slikomat.com/10/1027/ega-df-hau.jpg)
Title: Alexander III. (der Große), König von Makedonien
Date: unknown
Creator: Alexander III. (der Große), König von Makedonien
Description: Alexander III. (der Große), König von Makedonien
Language: de-DE
Format: image/jpeg
Source: SLUB/Deutsche Fotothek
Rights: Deutsche Fotothek
Provider: Deutsche Fotothek ; Germany

http://www4.slikomat.com/10/1027/eu1-df-ld-.jpg (http://www4.slikomat.com/10/1027/eu1-df-ld-.jpg)
Title: Alexander Magnus, Blatt 4v
Date: 1540
Creator: Richter, Regine (Fotograf) ; Alexander der Große, König von Mazedonien
Description: Alexander Magnus, Blatt 4v
Language: de-DE
Format: image/jpeg
Source: SLUB/Deutsche Fotothek
Provider: Deutsche Fotothek ; Germany
More
Less
Identifier: http://www.deutschefotothek.de/obj81067111.html (http://www.deutschefotothek.de/obj81067111.html)
Subject: Foto; Fotos
Coverage: Dresden; SLUB
Type: image

http://www4.slikomat.com/10/0302/gmm-344512.jpg
Ptolemy mourns at the tomb of Alexander
(c. 1430)
kb.nl

http://www4.slikomat.com/10/0302/pi-344512.jpg
Alexander defeats King Porus in single combat
(c. 1430)
kb.nl

http://www4.slikomat.com/10/0302/3js-344176.jpg
Scene, paying Homage to Gadifer of Epheson. Behind Gadifer are four men, including Alexander the Great
MS G.24 fol. 19v, Morgan Library

http://www4.slikomat.com/10/0302/ph8-344258.jpg
Alexander the Great- Scene, greeted by Fesonas
Morgan Library. MS G.24 fol. 69v

http://www4.slikomat.com/10/0302/xwg-344176.jpg
Alexander the Great- Scene, fighting Cassiel the Baudrain
MS G.24 fol. 88r., Morgan Library


http://www4.slikomat.com/10/1026/iee-bbbbbb.jpg
Title: Oratio habita Norinbergae coram senatu principum & omnium ordinum Sacri Ro. imperii, pro expeditione in Turcos suscipienda, III. Cal. Decembr. M.D.XXII.
Oratio Habita Norimbergae coram Senatu Principum & omniu[m] Ordinum Sacri Ro. Imperij, pro expeditione in Turcos suscipienda, III. Cal. Decembr. M.D.XXII.
Date: [1522]; [1522]
Creator: Ladislaus
Language: la
Format: [9] Bl. : Ill. (Holzschn.) ; 4
Data provider: Bayerische Staatsbibliothek
Provider: Bayerische Staatsbibliothek ; Germany
More
Less
Identifier: bvb-id : BV022539395; oclc : 213511548; urn : urn:nbn:de:bvb:12-bsb00013223-1; vd16 : VD16 M 20
Publisher: [Nürnberg] : [Peypus]
Type: Druck


http://www4.slikomat.com/10/0302/35-344429.jpg (http://www.slikomat.com/slika/4747358.htm)
Alexander defeats King Porus in single combat
(West Flanders; c. 1325-1335)
kb.nl


http://www4.slikomat.com/10/0302/s3u-344429.jpg (http://www.slikomat.com/slika/4747372.htm)
The battle between Alexander and Darius
(West Flanders; c. 1325-1335)
kb.nl


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Worthies
The Nine Worthies are nine historical, scriptural, mythological or semi-legendary personages who were established in the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Middle_Ages) as a set of heroes personifying the ideals of chivalry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry). All may loosely be termed "Princes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince)", whether kings, rulers, sons of kings, dictators, or simple leaders. In French they are Les Neuf Preux, meaning "Nine Valiants",[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nine_Worthies#cite_note-0) which term gives a slightly more focussed idea of the sort of moral virtue they were deemed to represent so perfectly, that of soldierly courage and generalship. The study of the life of each would thus form a good education for the aspirant to chivalric status. In Italy they are i Nove Prodi.

http://www.heraldica.org/topics/worthies.htm
Arms of the Nine Worthies

Sources: Hans Burgkmayr (1473-1531), a prominent engraver from Augsburg, who made a suite of Nine Worthies engravings in 1516 (HB). Barthélémy de Chasseneuz: book, 1586, Frankfurt (BC). Jerome de Bara, 1581 (JB). A 15th c. tapestry in Basel (B15). The tapestry suite (http://www.metmuseum.org/collections/view1.asp?dep=7&item=47%2E101%2E4) at the Cloisters Museum, French ca. 1400 (NYC).

DejaVu
22-04-11, 01:50
The origin of the Gordon clan in Scotland was not Gaelic. The Gordon clan is originally from Normandy, where their ancestors are said to have had large possessions. From the great antiquity of the race, many fabulous accounts have been given of the descent of the Gordons. Some derive them from a city of Macedonia, called Gordonia (Close to modern day Gevgelija).

http://www.houseofgordon.com/HISTORY.html (http://www.houseofgordon.com/HISTORY.html)
http://bydand.orconhosting.net.nz/page3.htm (http://bydand.orconhosting.net.nz/page3.htm)

Perseus' one son, Alexander, was still a child when Perseus was conquered by the Romans, and after the triumph of Aemilius Paullus in 167 BC, was kept in custody at Alba, together with his father. He became a skillful toreutes, learned the Latin language, and became a public notary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_of_Macedon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus_of_Macedon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alba)



One ancient title for Scotland, was 'Albania'.
The term derives from the Latin 'Alpine', meaning of course, 'high places'...etc, and was used commonly throughout the ancient world to describe mountainous regions.


The favourite Scottish order of battle somewhat resembled the Macedonian phalanx. Their infantry formed a compact body, armed with long spears, impenetrable even to the men-at-arms of the age, though well mounted, and arrayed in complete proof.
- Sir Walter Scott
http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/scot...chapter15.html (http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/s/scott/walter/legend/chapter15.html)


The alternative Scottish flag:
http://taljard.com/taljardscotia/rampflag.gif (http://taljard.com/taljardscotia/rampflag.gif)


http://pic.mk/images/image1282723701.jpg (http://pic.mk/images/image1282723701.jpg)

http://pic.mk/images/image1282723782.jpg (http://pic.mk/images/image1282723782.jpg)

http://pic.mk/images/image1282723811.jpg (http://pic.mk/images/image1282723811.jpg)
Page 83
of their ancient Country, destroyed by Vespasian, as they al-
ledge.
He likewise confutes their Opinion of their being descended from
Frisius, Son to Clogio, King of France, and that his Posterity paid a
Tribute of 260 Oxen to the French, as a Token of Homage, and
thinks it rather true, that the French derive their Origin from the
Freezlanders, according to Beatus Rhenanus and Adrianus Ju-
nius.
Then he attacks the Opinion of those who say, the Frison's are
descended from Grunius the Trojan, the Builder of Groningen, and
therefore writ them Phrysii, as nearer the Phryges their Progeni-
tors, and at last tells us his own Sentiments, that Freso, the Foun-
der of their Nation, with his Brethren Saxo and Bruno, came from
an Indian Province called Benedicta Fresia ; where having served
under Alexander the Great, and not daring to stay in the Coun-
try after his Death took shipping with what they could bring
off, and landing in this Country, called it Fresia, after his own
Name.
" This he insists upon at large in this Third Book, and thinks it the
more probable, because the Story of Saxo, the Founder of the
Saxon Nation, agrees with it. He says all Authors, Crantzius ex-
cepted, agree. That the Saxons were some Remains of the Mace-
donian Army ; and that before they came into Germany, they
were called Macedonians ; for this he quotes the German Chronicle, printed at Mentz, in 1482. the Annals of Freezland, and others."
His next Proof for this is ancient Rhimes, Constant Tradition,
and the Universal Opinion of the Frisons, who have entertained it
from Father to Son successively, and convey'd it to one another by
Rhimes, a Custom, says he, which the most prudent Nations have
made use of, as the readiest Preservative against Oblivion. He tells
us moreover, that all the Freezland. Historians he hath seen, give
their Suffrage this way.
As a further Proof of this, he alledges, That the Frisons were
constantly great Lovers of Learning, and therefore could easily pre-
serve their Origin and Antiquities from Oblivion. He says also, that
Freso, their Founder, was versed in all the Learning of the Greeks,
and erected a sort of Academies in many places, where Youth were
instructed in Learning, and the Art of War ; and that he erected
one particularly at Stavren, near Stavo's Temple, and placed a great
Library in the Temple it self.


Page 84
The Works of the LEARNED,
In the next place, he acquaints us, that both Frison and Saxon
Historians agree as to Saxo, and that the People of Freezland,
Saxony and Brunswick had formerly one and the same Language,
and form of Government.
Then he gives us an Account of the Arms of the Saxons and
Frisons, from the Heralds Books, and says, that when Friso had
the Defence of the German Ocean committed to his Charge, his
Arms were in a blue Field, three Silver Bars, oblique from the right
to the left, betwixt them 7 red Leaves of a Water Rose, 4 betwixt
the Dexter and the middle Bar, and 3 betwixt that and the Sinister.
These, says our Author, were the most ancient Arms of the Frisons,
and prove that they were used by their Princes, Dukes and Kings,
and that the 7 Leaves signified 7 Islands, into which Freezland was
formerly divided. Saxo's Coat, he tells us, was also a blew Field,
divided in the middle by a cross Line, from the right to the left, under
the same, at the dexter Point, there was a Lion, and at the sinister
Point a Dragon, their Heads almost joined, and looking upon one
another, with a pleasant Aspect. In the upper part there was an
Eagle flying with expanded Wings, looking upon them both. In this
place, he confutes Crantzius, who says, that those are but New
Bearings, and that Wittekind, Duke of Saxony, who was overcome by
Charlemagne, carried in his Ensigns a black Colt, but when he turn'd
Christian, changed it into a white one. He proves from Methodius,
who is many Centuries elder than Whittikindus, that the Saxons in
his time impressed a Lion upon their Coin. He observes, that
Wittikindus was not King of the Saxons, but one of those twelve
Princes (or Great Men) that governed Saxony by turns ; and there-
fore bore the Arms of the Country, and not his own. He also quotes
Wittikind the Monk, who in his 1st Book of Hatthagar, D. of Saxony,
says, that when he encouraged his Men to Battle, he took up the
Standard or Ensign (which they account Sacred) impressed with
a Lion and Dragon, and an Eagle hovering over them, by which he
would represent Fortitude and Prudence, and their Efficacy, and ex-
press constancy of Mind by motion of the Body.
In the rest of his Book he enquires after the Indian Fresia, and
thinks it to be the Pharrasii mentioned by Curtius, beyond the Ganges.
He pretends to trace Freso's Genealogy, as far as Shem, one of Noah's
Sons, and gives an Account of the Travels of Freso and his Bre-
thren, c. all which is submitted to the Readers Censure, it being ap-
plicable to Antiquaries better than to any other fort of Men.
ui bene conjecit Vatem bunc perhibebo optimum.
erarbi


http://pic.mk/images/saxonmk.bmp (http://pic.mk/images/saxonmk.bmp)
http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/cambrit/angsaxeng.html

iapetoc
22-04-11, 06:52
Oh my god, someone is drinking expired medicines, or radioactivity hurts mind,

it seems like Makedonians were Greek as Alexandros o Megas

But MC-Donaldians as Alexander Magnus came from planet Seirion or from Jupiter,

the first skopjie was probably in planet saturn

LeBrok
22-04-11, 08:09
Looks like Alexander was a medieval knite. :confused2:

Elias2
22-04-11, 14:17
Looks like Macedons were scottish and german aswell :useless:

Antigone
22-04-11, 16:46
Alba was the name Gaelic speakers gave to the former kingdom of the Picts. The term first appears in the writings of Ptolemy and later, Albion in latin texts and it originally referred to all of Britain, not only Scotland. Alba is ultimately based on the IE root for white.

It wasn't until the Medieval period that the term Albania was used by Celto-Latin writers like Geoffrey of Monmouth, the term later passed into Middle English as Albany but was rarely used to refer to Scotland. Rather it is/was used mainly to refer to the Duchy of Albany, a peerage title bestowed on younger sons of the Scottish and British royal families.

I don't understand how any of this can be connected with the modern Balkan Albania or FYROM though, just because there is a similarity in a name doesn't always mean there has to be a connection.

AndronikD
14-05-11, 03:09
Looks like Alexander was a medieval knite. :confused2:


like Macedons were scottish and german aswell

Looks like nothing new on south.

The same old, same old lullaby Slav stories. :bored:

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5375.htm

http://www.lebed.com/2008/art5386.htm

Except this dumb Slavs forgot to fake their genes so they can fit into the story. :useless:

http://korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_tra07.pdf

http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf

Again those damn Slavs spoke on their damned language when they should have not and where they should have not. :useless:

http://www.lituanus.org/1981_1/81_1_05.htm

Damn Slavs, they can't even be placed in their proper homeland. :useless:

No good slavs, no good for nothing not even as root of the word SCLAVUS.
:useless:
We made them (as this Fella's Curta and Simocata have well said) and they can't even be as gratefull as to listen to us. Ungratefull Slavs, damn dumb Slavs. :startled:

Although when you look at etymological deductions of their southern neighbours you begin to wonder what is dumber? :shocked:

CLUE: it's about PALEOLINGUISTICS stupid! :grin:

AndronikD
15-05-11, 00:40
Looks like Macedons were scottish and german aswell :useless:


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

looks like mycenaean Greeks were Slavs

iapetoc
15-05-11, 10:15
well
seems like someone is still dreaming, an d changes everything,

modern
R1a could be today
1) German
2) Slavic
3) Turkish

old R1a
1) Thracian
2) IE Greek


there are 3 R1a imported in Europe,
1) is the ancient, we don't know if came from steppes but we suggest so,
But the case of Thracians seems that ancient R1a came from middle east,
2) the case of Muceneans is still ubder discuss, but indicates to an ancient R1a although the case of R1b is not out of discuss,


As we have R1a Germanic branch
R1a slavic,
a possible R1a Turkish,
a R1a thracian,
MAYBE WE MAY HAVE A R1a GREEK

besides we Greeks we know that we are the sons of Pelasgians (NON IE) and the Driopes (IE) a arcado-cypriot E-V13 and a preexisted I in area (neolithic etc)

simply because we respect Slavic people,
that does not means that we are Slavs,
or we kneel to Slavic Nations,
we were always a unique no family Nation,
but we are relatives with many from ancient times,

Simply we are the MaKedonians,
and we are not the MC-Donaldians,

Besides with out recognising minorities Fyrom can't enter EU and NAto,
Fyrom today has many minorities,
the ex- communistic mafia wants to make all Bulgarians Serbs Albanians Greeks Aromani Turks Roma to be unite as fake Makedonians,
but Tito is dead, and the ex-closed behind curtain Yugoslavia is dead,
Truth every day goes more on light,
Even fyromians don't believe the story that Panslavic propaganda makers made in St Petersberg from the times of Great Peter (Petros o Megas)

History cannot change, no matter how many of you try.

Greatings from MAΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ to fake МАКЕДОНИЯ

Alexander knew Cyrillic before Cyrill :grin:

:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

we are the ones that from 6th century Keep our languages and lands as far as we can
1 from slavic invasion and expasionism,
2 from Turkish and Ottomans

in past we were occupied by Romans Turks Serbs Bulgarians Albanians but we still are here,
to resist every new intruder,
From Monasterion to Crete
and from Epirus to Trebizond

AndronikD
15-05-11, 10:59
Instead of rewritting the lectures of the 7-th grade schoolbooks you could actually have a look at the links that I gave you and give me some arguments instead of stories. There are not new R1a in Macedonian territory or in Sebia or in Bulgaria. That's your problem.
R1a cannot be German, nor Turkic nor Greek. People that have German, Turkic or Greek culture and selfidentity can belong to R1a haplogroup. That cannnot describe R1a as German, Turkic or Greek since it is not characteristic for tribes that lived on that territory. So if you belong to R1a yes you probably have Macedonian or Thracian ancestry though you have Greek selfindentity which is ok don't worry :).
About the Hellenic legacy in Greece. Jesus, you people are incredible. You claim Hellenic and Byzantine legacy at the same time though they are as exclusive cultures as one can imagine. As far as I can see you have legacy of your founding fathers which were influenced by the French revolution and later great influence by German panhellenism, which still causes trouble to you and to all neighbouring countries. Both are very far from what Hellenic and Byzintine cultures were about.
That's the two points I saw as worth commenting in your little story. The rest is a fairytale. But if it suits you, fine.

iapetoc
15-05-11, 23:37
Instead of rewritting the lectures of the 7-th grade schoolbooks you could actually have a look at the links that I gave you and give me some arguments instead of stories. There are not new R1a in Macedonian territory or in Sebia or in Bulgaria. That's your problem.
R1a cannot be German, nor Turkic nor Greek. People that have German, Turkic or Greek culture and selfidentity can belong to R1a haplogroup. That cannnot describe R1a as German, Turkic or Greek since it is not characteristic for tribes that lived on that territory. So if you belong to R1a yes you probably have Macedonian or Thracian ancestry though you have Greek selfindentity which is ok don't worry :).
About the Hellenic legacy in Greece. Jesus, you people are incredible. You claim Hellenic and Byzantine legacy at the same time though they are as exclusive cultures as one can imagine. As far as I can see you have legacy of your founding fathers which were influenced by the French revolution and later great influence by German panhellenism, which still causes trouble to you and to all neighbouring countries. Both are very far from what Hellenic and Byzintine cultures were about.
That's the two points I saw as worth commenting in your little story. The rest is a fairytale. But if it suits you, fine.

Byzantine was not Greek, But GrecoRoman
it was East Roman Empire, that by time bacame more Greek Speaking,
Byzantines Slain Greeks in many places, but Byzantine also kept (but change a lot) Greek language, and Greeks had some safety
Yes Christianity F.. up Greeks, the last Genocides was against Athens at 900 AD

the case of Rigas and the French revolution is not why Greeks revolt,

Greeks revolt many times Before Francais, to Turks and Venicians,
Simply the French revolt, gave the dream that a revolt could succeed if well organised,
Greeks were preparing revolt for 50 Years from 1770AD until !821
indeed we are not the exact man that our Fathers were,
But many of us try to reach them.
At least we speak their Language, and some us are not christians but Pagans.

One Think is For SURE

Hellenism was not Slavicism or MaC-Donaldialism,
Byzantine was Not Greek but Protect some Greek Literature, and some Greek people,


BUT LOOK AT YOU,
you were liberated By SERBS,
YOU NEVER FIGHT IN WW1 the Turks
(Sandasky is Bulgarian Hero)

From 1870 your enemy is Greeks, cause they stop panslavism and mother Russia to expand to sea,

So who are you?
you never fight against Serbs,
you Never fight against Bulgaria,
You never fight against Turks

your only Fight is with Greeks and Greek History, cause they are the only ones that stop your expansionism.

well maybe we are equals of Ancient Greeks, but surely we not fake MaC-donaldians.

iapetoc
15-05-11, 23:53
Besides Sclavini is another issue than Sklavos

search
Sclavini a nation from the north, (scloveni, Sclovaki, sclavonia)

Σκλαβος = εις Κλωβο Sklavos means in cage,
the first time that word is used is by Xenophon in Cyrus Anabasis, He describes how some Persian tribes used their slaves,
the had them in cages κλωβοι
εις κλωβο -> 'σ κλαβο σκλαβος
similar word εγκλωβισμενος εν+κλωβος.

yes we lost most of our Dare leaders by Romans, yes we lost most of our Philosophers by Christians,
but in Achaia wars workers fight, so today Greek farmers are on the lose,
who knows, maybe some of them are sons of ex Great leaders.

iapetoc
27-06-11, 18:15
Hahahahahahaha

Latest news show that Fyrom after a huge statue of Alexander that cost more than 20 000 000 E
and a Phillip 2 one, total estimation 35 000 000 $
are about to change name

They are going to name Skopje to Alexandreia
I wonder if they also claim that the city was Build Alexander

and after that it is Dusan time
they will start a total Fyromianization of Dusan as continuer of Alexander
and they to rename him as Dusan of Macedonia !!!!!!!

just imagine Dusan of Alexandreia apogonus of Alexander!!!!!!!!!!!!

maybe they also turn the name of Monastir to Boukafaleia

iapetoc
22-07-11, 12:22
22 July 1943

at least 100 men killed in Athens and unknown in Northern Greece

The day Hitler 'gave' Greek Makedonia To bulgarians as Gift for Helping him

the total Number of Killed is unestimated,

we only know that in Riot in Athens at least 100 killed the first day

Dorianfinder
11-08-11, 15:59
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

looks like mycenaean Greeks were Slavs

R1a in the Balkans and especially northern Greece and Fyrom is not of the typical Slavic type. Dienekes explains the detail ...

AndronikD
30-08-11, 14:34
R1a in the Balkans and especially northern Greece and Fyrom is not of the typical Slavic type. Dienekes explains the detail ...

And what is there to explain? It is not the same. That's the explanation.
Now if you want to say that he explains WHY it is not the same, that's a different matter.
I just hope that we do not end up as the undiscovered dorians - the jewel of the hellenic people. :grin: We have allready heard similar stories from the Bulgarians. :laughing:

AndronikD
30-08-11, 15:06
22 July 1943

at least 100 men killed in Athens and unknown in Northern Greece

The day Hitler 'gave' Greek Makedonia To bulgarians as Gift for Helping him

the total Number of Killed is unestimated,

we only know that in Riot in Athens at least 100 killed the first day

I don't know what do you want to imply? If you want to expose Vanco Mihajlov as a genuine Macedonian fighter you couldn't be more wrong. He has so much Macedonian blood on his hands that it makes me sick to speak about him. By the way he never had truly any governing power in Macedonia, except in Pirin Macedonia wich is still under Bulgarian rule.
Let me ask you a question your teachers probably never spoke to you about. Why , in gerater measure than the rest of Greece the colaborators were given governance in the region of Macedonia? Why do you speak to me of the great Greek sacrifices in WW2 (which were great indeed) when the same people that were fighting and suffering under the Germans were fighting and suffering for a long period afterwards under you right wing government. Who do you represent? The Greek fighters that were chased all over the world (and still are) or the Greek colaborators that have written you such a sweetsounding history?

AndronikD
30-08-11, 15:35
At least we speak their Language, and some us are not christians but Pagans.

No you speak Demotic, and even Demotic was too hard for the majority of the population back then.



One Think is For SURE

Hellenism was not Slavicism or MaC-Donaldialism,
Byzantine was Not Greek but Protect some Greek Literature, and some Greek people,

They wrote on koine. They had no intention nor did they protect anything Hellenic (note the Hellenic is not equal to Greek). Hellenism well that's a term which best suits the 18-th and 19-th century and it's a whole different story.



From 1870 your enemy is Greeks, cause they stop panslavism and mother Russia to expand to sea,

So who are you?
you never fight against Serbs,
you Never fight against Bulgaria,
You never fight against Turks

your only Fight is with Greeks and Greek History, cause they are the only ones that stop your expansionism.

well maybe we are equals of Ancient Greeks, but surely we not fake MaC-donaldians.

utter ignorance. If it wasn't for Russia in the 1870-1912 period you would have been what you should have always been proper Hellada. Read their diplomatic correspondance from 1902-1903 for example (it is publushed dont worry) and you will find many Macedonians (You complained that there weren't many in that period don't you???)

Since I hate repeating myself I will point you for further reading:
about the Macedonian rebelion from 1689 - thread: The case of Macedonia post nr. 173
about the Greek "liberation" of Macedonia - thread: The case of Macedonia post nr. 172

Dorianfinder
01-09-11, 01:21
And what is there to explain? It is not the same. That's the explanation.
Now if you want to say that he explains WHY it is not the same, that's a different matter.
I just hope that we do not end up as the undiscovered dorians - the jewel of the hellenic people. :grin: We have allready heard similar stories from the Bulgarians. :laughing:

In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins.

The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.

Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that the Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language. :cool-v:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11/finally-structure-in-haplogroup-r1a.html

Besir Bajrami
18-09-11, 01:01
... and what about ancient Macedonia ?


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.196367803744330.45871.100001133356751&l=1f8bcdeead&type=1
__________________________________________________

Sile
18-09-11, 01:07
... and what about ancient Macedonia ?


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.196367803744330.45871.100001133356751&l=1f8bcdeead&type=1
__________________________________________________


when did ancient end ...............yesterday or before Christ or something else

LeBrok
18-09-11, 03:49
In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins.

The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.

Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that the Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong, just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong. The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language. :cool-v:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11/finally-structure-in-haplogroup-r1a.html

I find it very interesting, thanks for the info.
Maybe Maciamo will find time to do maps for different R1a clads. Can't wait.

Besir Bajrami (2)
23-09-11, 21:12
The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language. :cool-v:
[/B]
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/11/finally-structure-in-haplogroup-r1a.html

That's because (using a religion) a large part of orthodox and christian albanians (in this case) are assimilated into south slavic nations.

Elias2
24-09-11, 22:13
That's because (using a religion) a large part of orthodox and christian albanians (in this case) are assimilated into south slavic nations.

No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian and not albanian, nice try.

zanipolo
24-09-11, 23:07
No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian and not albanian, nice try.


sorry, but no, ancient macedonia ( at the time of Philip ) was not related to bulgarian.

If anything, Bulgarian would be related to ancient macedonia after a long time due to assimilation.
The bulgars have a better chance with the Paeonians ( not the Pannonians) than the Macedonians.

Also, religion plays no part in DNA

Elias2
24-09-11, 23:18
sorry, but no, ancient macedonia ( at the time of Philip ) was not related to bulgarian.

If anything, Bulgarian would be related to ancient macedonia after a long time due to assimilation.
The bulgars have a better chance with the Paeonians ( not the Pannonians) than the Macedonians.

Also, religion plays no part in DNA

Can you please show me the study in which they have done DNA tests using ancient macedon DNA? I would be interested.

And when I said Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian I ment FYROM DNA, I should have been more clear.

zanipolo
25-09-11, 05:39
Can you please show me the study in which they have done DNA tests using ancient macedon DNA? I would be interested.

And when I said Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian I ment FYROM DNA, I should have been more clear.

can you !!

you stated macedonians are bulgars ...........where is this

Elias2
25-09-11, 13:37
can you !!

you stated macedonians are bulgars ...........where is this

I said Bulgarians not bulgars;

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

AndronikD
30-09-11, 18:27
In several Balkan samples the frequency of R-M458 ranges between 0-12% which is at most a third of its maximum frequency, suggesting that the extent of Slavic admixture in the Balkans is upper-bounded by about 1/3. The complete absence of R-M458 in Italy and its sub-1% representation in Anatolia further support the idea that R-M458 in the Balkans is of medieval and later origins.

Yes generally that is that, though the diversity of R1A1A7 is better indicator of its age.



The samples from Greece (N=263), Macedonian Greeks (N=57), and Crete (N=361) have R-M458 frequency of 4.2, 8.8, and 2.2%. Assuming a frequency of R-M458 at 36.4% in ancestral Slavs, as in south Poland, the admixture estimates are 11.5, 24, 6%. These should probably be interpreted as upper limits (plus statistical margins) because the highest present-day frequency of R-M458 is probably lower than that in early Slavs.

The question is what is the frequency of r1a1a7 amongst r1a bearers on the Blakans and the problem with the "older" R1a bearers such as Mycenians among others, for example.


Interestingly, the Slavs of FYROM have an R-M458 frequency of 3.8%, barely different from that of Greeks at large, suggesting that (i) the claims of some Greek nationalists that the Slavs of FYROM are newcomers to the Balkans are wrong,

Well that is what the discourse is about on this thread for the whole time, and no matter how proven it seems to be some people just repeat it again and again and again because it suits them so.


just as (ii) the claim of some FYROMian nationalists that they are markedly different from Greeks are wrong.

Markedly different - of course not. In terms of the genetics Macedonians are different from the Greeks (ok let's say southern Greeks or some Greeks if that is to your satisfaction) but that does not mean that some of them are less or more worthy. (many people seem to draw such conclusions).



The actual truth is that the Slavs of FYROM are largely of old Balkan (pre-Slavic) stock who adopted a non-Balkan Slavic language, just as the modern Turks are largely of old Anatolian (pre-Turkish) stock who adopted a non-Anatolian Turkic language. :cool-v:


So the Slavs are not Slavs but some time ago they adopted the "slavery" Slav language. i hope you understand how absurd and funny is what is beeing said here.

zanipolo
30-09-11, 21:10
So the Slavs are not Slavs but some time ago they adopted the "slavery" Slav language. i hope you understand how absurd and funny is what is beeing said here.

Speaking a slavic language does not mean you are slav.
There a some who say that there are no slavs in the balkans and that they are Sarmatians who spoke a slavic language.
Ancient Roman authors never mentioned any slavs , but they knew about Sarmatians from north of the black sea


IMO , the ancient Macedonians where not greeks and where not slavs , they where macedonians. They are extinct now. Unless someone finds a lot of DNA from ancient macedonian graves and compares them to modern pwople , we will never know where they are or who they are.

Elias2
02-10-11, 00:59
So the Slavs are not Slavs but some time ago they adopted the "slavery" Slav language. i hope you understand how absurd and funny is what is beeing said here.

Arabic was adopted on a very large scale in the middles ages, but not every country today who speaks arabic are arabs.

Slavs came down into the Vardar river basin and settled, because it's good farming area, and spead their language to the native inhabitants. I'm sure the adoption of old church-slavonic helped further this language in the area.

Yetos
02-10-11, 22:50
well you all make this debate interesting,

Lets read something about History,

Spartans when attack Olymp and Atheneans also we read that were massacre by bows,
Bow tecniks were known to 2 areas of Ancient Greece and 1 relative to Greeks,
Bow where known to Cretans and to Pelasgians, Alexander Bowman named Cretan archers,
Boeotians are mentioned that came from Crete

the Other race is Aeolians, Aeolians learn the bow tecnik by Pelasgians,
Myrmidons had great Bowmans,
we Know that Philoktetes Odyseus etc were not Myceneans
and Godess ARtemis and had great influence in minor Asian Greeks were Pelasgians used to Lived,

the 3rd Relative to Greeks is Thracians,
Mygdonians especially and the old Pieri
Orpheus was Pieri Thracian famous Bowman

The Spear was not a Makedonian tactic, it was imported later by Phillip

So the connection of army skills of Ancient Makedonians lead us to Crete, Thessaly and EPirus and south Makedonia were AEolians and Pelasgians lived and to THracians,

But which Thracians?

By History we find a bond of Makedonians with Bryges,
Mygdonians were Bryges,

by watching Makedonian Bow we find it different from Mycenean Bow, very close to Cretan Bow, and smaller than the Thracian Bow,
far away from the Persian bow,

LeBrok
02-10-11, 23:42
Interesting, welcome to Eupedia Yetos. Can you post pictures of different bow from different cultures? It would be interesting to see what other bows match Makedonian bow closest.

Elias2
03-10-11, 05:01
24 pages of over analysis of what the ancient macedons were, when its actually quite clear.

Bronze age Mycenaean Greece saw greeks confined to the peleponesus, attica, thessaly, and some islands. They were centred amoung large palace complexes like Mycenae, Pylos, and Thebes. Minoan Crete didn't speak Greek, they spoke an undecifered language written in Linear A.

Looking an homer's Iliad, we have a good geographical description of who lives where, and the people that live around the Axius (Vardar) River are the Paeonians, who in homer's Iliad, sided with the Trojans.

After the destruction of every near eastern civilization by some undetermined force save for Egypt, Mycenae Greeks started to spead out all over the Aegean sea. They went north into the lower Axius river basin, into epirus, eastward into Ionia and Cyprus. This historical period is called the "dark ages", starting around 1200 BC.

The Mycenean greeks that ventured north would be the foundation of the Macedon kingdom some centuries later, organised by the Argead dynasty.

Ancient Macedonians are not some mysterious people, they did not come from outer space, we have ample findings and documentation about them. What has changed though is that a former yugoslav state has been trying to distort reality and history through nationalism.

AndronikD
05-10-11, 04:25
Speaking a slavic language does not mean you are slav.
There a some who say that there are no slavs in the balkans and that they are Sarmatians who spoke a slavic language.
Ancient Roman authors never mentioned any slavs , but they knew about Sarmatians from north of the black sea

There are more problems than solutions in what is now known as "the spread of Slavic languages". Consider this for example:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/48903516/The-Slavic-Lingua-Franca-by-Florin-Curta-2004

Or the problem that Slavic languages and Baltic have the most conservative grammar of all IE languages but Old Indic and Old Iranian.

The problems exist only for those who understand Slavic, unfortunately most of the Slavic "historians" don't understand a word of it.


IMO , the ancient Macedonians where not greeks and where not slavs , they where macedonians. They are extinct now. Unless someone finds a lot of DNA from ancient macedonian graves and compares them to modern pwople , we will never know where they are or who they are.

The only thing that we can know for sure is that ancient Macedonians were not Hellens (there were no Greeks at that time). About who the ancient Macedonians were and what was their culture no one can say much for sure, at least now. However some presumptions can be established with a great level of credibility. One is that they certainly were not extinct since they were not whales nad there were no whalers back then :).
About ancient DNA and how it is established you can look for the Myceneans on this forum.

AndronikD
05-10-11, 04:30
Slavs came down into the Vardar river basin and settled, because it's good farming area, and spead their language to the native inhabitants. I'm sure the adoption of old church-slavonic helped further this language in the area.

There is something that is called argument and there is something that is called wishfull thinking.
Take this for example:
http://www.thegeneticgenealogist.com/2008/12/30/y-chromosomal-evidence-of-the-cultural-diffusion-of-agriculture-in-southeast-europe/

or this:

http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

For Slavs came down into the Vardar river basin and settled to be true yu need to refutate this people i.e. to refutate their methods or the way they use their methods. Telling a story is not sufficient nor is it an analysis as you like to name it.

Yetos
05-10-11, 05:31
the Late PIE gives a well known family,


The Greco-Aryan
Hellenic language is part of it,

ancient Makedonians according History belong to the Thessalian family of Balkan Nations,
But they are also connected whith Thracians, Brygian Branch, and Epirotans
Ancient Makedonians worship oak tree Like Epirotans,

Now about Genneticks, the more R1a is studied the more we know,
but until today, M17/M198 possitive is much lower in Greece Norway and south Italy, Minor Asia and west Iranic pop , Than in the traditional Slavic R1a with a 1/(4-5) and the Turkish-Mongols (4-5)/1
the History as is writtten, gives clear that Makedonians is a mix of Cretans Thettalians and Thracians, a connection with Illyrians exist especially in Upper Makedonia (west)
Archaiology proves the same,
Linguistic proves the same, etc

Personally for me it is clear who were ancient Makedonians,
the problem of modern times is different,


to be more specific,
Hellenik language is destroyed after romano-Celtic and drop to poor modern Greek,
elder Hellenic especially Hesiodic has form that exist only in Avestan and sanshqrit,

it is considered the more rich IE language,
just think that past had 4 forms as avestan and was constructed the same form,

razor
05-10-11, 06:13
There is an interesting parallel (consciousness-wise not genes wise) between the ancient Macedonians and Greeks and the more recent Manchus and Han Chinese.

Petros Houhoulis
10-10-11, 00:51
Well, I am afraid that the DNA analysis cannot help with Ancient Macedonia since there is little or no DNA sample analysed for these people. We must rely upon history, linguistics and archaeology.

According to history and archaeology, Macedonia begins around the 7th century B.C. when a group of shepherds moves from the (later upper Macedonian) region of Orestis, follows the Aliakmon gorge and takes over Pieria - by evicting the "wild Pierians" from the land...

The conquests continue by the expulsion and assimilation of scores of Brygians (who emigrate to Frygia in Asia Minor) Paeonians and other "Barbarians", a significant portion of them being classified as THRACIANS...

The Macedonians assimilated a large number of foreign people by imposing their own language upon them - something that would give conflicting DNA results, if they ever come forward from ANCIENT skeletons. Nevertheless, what was their language?

Well, the existing evidence points out to two different branches of Greek, the one being the North-Western Dorian (the invaders from Orestis plus the Epirotans who were classified as "Macedonians" - The invading clan itself, and the Thessalian element coming from the South. The onomastic analysis of the names of the soldiers of Alexander the Great (already compliled by 19th century German historians) shows some 80% Greek, 5% Illyrian and 15% undetermined. This 15% is gradually turning into "weird Greek" over the last century. Nevertheless, where did that Illyrian comes from?

The Lyncestians were Illyrians. That is what is the claim against the grandmother of Alexander the Great (she spoke no word of Greek) and some other references to Lyncestians. Interestingly, the Lyncestians were often allied with the Illyrians in their claim to the throne of Macedonia: When Aeropus claimed the throne, he did so because Bardyllis supported him. This can be explained by the linguistic bond.

Several of those Thracians who were assimilated (most of the Paeonians) were certainly not Greek. The very few samples of their language point to a Satem language related to the Baltic languages. Nevertheless, they were certainly not Slavs.

The Macedonian royal court was 100% Greek, with archaic (Homeric) institutions and plenty of "Barbarian" subjects who were gradually getting assimilated. When they first appeared in the Olympics (Alexander I) they were opposed by other contestants, and (since it was their first attempt at the Olympics) they had to prove their Greekness. They were asked of their origin, responded that they were from Argos (Orestikon, in Orestis) and then the Hellanodikai left the Argeads (of the Peloponesse) to sort it out. Argeads and Macedonians conferred and decided that the Macedonian royal family was descending from the old kings of Argos who were expelled. In reality the Argeads were expelled from Macedonia some centuries earlier (much like all of the Dorians, and according to Herodotus) and of course they kept their Dorian names (there were over 100 locations named Argos all over Greece, and a mythical monster as well) much like the Bottians were expelled from the Voion mountain in Macedonia by the Macedonians, and went to live in Boeotia, while the mount Olympus gave its' name to the Olympics far south in Elis of the Peloponesse...

All other characteristics of Ancient Macedonian, including toponyms, calendar e.t.c. put it in the context of Dorian. Maybe though Dorian itself whould have been put in context of Macedonian since the Dorians used to be called Makednoi and to live in Macedonia, according to Herodotus again...

The Slavs originated in Ukraine. Their languages have common terms for everything that is native in Ukraine (lowlands, rivers, no sea) but different (and often borrowed) terms for anything not present in the most of Ukraine (mountains, sea)

Those Slavs invaded Macedonia only during the Middle Age, destroyed all urban settlements that fell in their hands and expelled plenty of Macedonians, mostly to Thrace.

Of course, as Jared Diamond points out, in order for a population to be totally annihilated, in mass scale, the victim should have no knowledge of agriculture while the victor should have knowledge of agriculture, as it happened in Africa with the agricultural revolution from the western part towards all directions, the Korean invasion of Japan and the modern colonization of the Americas and Oceania. The most of the archaic Greeks arrived from the Middle East with the knowledge of agriculture in their baggage, and they have never been repulsed ever since. Several Northern R1a-R1b people invaded and conquered Greece (and the Balkans in general), like the Dorians, but none was able to displace the indigenous population - but only to impose their IndoEuropean language upon them - accepting some of the losers vocabulary. In cultural terms, some of those R1a and/or R1b are the Greeks, while the Middle Easterners (who are more numerous) are not culturally Greeks. Herodotus pointed that out very well when he classified the Dorians as Greeks and the Athenians as Pelasgians (although he was oversimplifying the situation)

The question of whether the IndoEuropean Ancient Greeks were R1a or R1b (or a combination of both) is the only question to be resolved. Ironically, the original Greeks might have been R1a who turned Centurm while the R1a who supposedly migrated from the Balkans to Eastern Europe developed their Satem language along the way (starting from Thrace) although it would make by far more sense to suggest that the R1a presence in Greece is a remnant of the Thracians, and that Macedonia was much better defended from later attacks from the Roman empire - and the climate was less continental and more Mediterranean, with the relevant yields - than the Balkans north of it, allowing by far more R1a to be preserved there than elsewhere...

That is of course until we get really ancient DNA in large numbers...

Besir Bajrami
14-10-11, 20:20
No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian and not albanian, nice try.

No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian, and bulgarian are related to ancient thracians and south slavic too (south slavic assimilated the ancient thracian original identity and today bulgarian language, is slavic language)... Macedonian DNA is also related to albanians, as original surviving of ancient illyrians & thracians (today nearly 40% of population of macedonia is an albanian, and a huge percent of albanians or illyrian thracian identity, was assimilated to south slavic one from the religion and other historical factors + there is a % of south slaciv population too and today macedonian language is sout slavic too)... for ancient greeks, macedonians were barbarians (different from greeks), because for greeks, illyrians & thracians (herodotus tell us - pelasgians), are barbarians (non greek people).

Please read about the identity of ancient macedonians (thraco-illyrians):
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.196367803744330.45871.100001133356751&type=1&l=1f8bcdeead

Elias2
14-10-11, 21:46
No, Macedonian DNA is related to bulgarian, and bulgarian are related to ancient thracians and south slavic too (south slavic assimilated the ancient thracian original identity and today bulgarian language, is slavic language)... Macedonian DNA is also related to albanians, as original surviving of ancient illyrians & thracians (today nearly 40% of population of macedonia is an albanian, and a huge percent of albanians or illyrian thracian identity, was assimilated to south slavic one from the religion and other historical factors + there is a % of south slaciv population too and today macedonian language is sout slavic too)... for ancient greeks, macedonians were barbarians (different from greeks), because for greeks, illyrians & thracians (herodotus tell us - pelasgians), are barbarians (non greek people).

Please read about the identity of ancient macedonians (thraco-illyrians):
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.196367803744330.45871.100001133356751&type=1&l=1f8bcdeead\

Barbarians were people who did not speak greek. Athenians and other "high" status greeks called other greeks barbarians as an insult. If you are implying Macedonians (ancient) did not speak greek I think you lie to yourself.

I sence again that you imply albanian decent from Illyrians, there is no continuation, I'm sorry. Albanian started to appear and were recorded in the middel ages, not before.

Just another nationalist.

Taranis
27-10-11, 16:06
I have moved the posts regarding Albanians into this separate thread:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26965-Albanians-(OFFTOPIC-Macedonians)

Also, let me issue a warning: the next one to post about Albanians in this Macedonian thread gets a real infraction. :evil_angry:

Besir Bajrami
27-10-11, 17:04
Than It will be much worst if someone post about the greeks in the Macedonian thread I think !
Although, Albanians and Greeks are certainly connected with the ancient Macedonians, anyway, I agree whith Taranis because it should not divert the topic to the lack of information placed on the ORIGIN of the Albanians and Greeks

Everything what I've tried to post here, as a subject was the name Macedonians, and now I will try again (I hope that administrators will react if someone will try again to deviate the topic)
+
1. Natural history - Di Gaius Plinius Secundus,-Lodovico Domenichi-1573
2. Dictionarium Latinohispanicum, Et Vice Versa Hispanicolatinum- Ad Haec ...
3. Dictionarium Latinohispanicum, Et Vice Versa Hispanicolatinum Ad Haec ...
4. Dictionarium Latinohispanicum, Et Vice Versa Hispanicolatinum Ad Haec ...
5. Novum lexicon geographicum - Pagina 159
6. Debora ("us" is latin suffix)- Dibra was mention by Plini - Novum lexicon geographicum? - Pagina 159 - Filippo Ferrari - 1697
7. D. Paulus apostulus in mari, quod nunc Venetus sinus dicitur, naufragus, et ...-pag.CLXXXVII

https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270604_196373220410455_100001133356751_479629_4455 6_n.jpg

+
Macedonia: Its Races and Their Future
H. Brailsford
... of the races wich inhabit Macedonia today only the Albanians have any claim to be autochtonus
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/264463_196372893743821_100001133356751_479620_2642 033_n.jpg

+
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270957_196374350410342_100001133356751_479665_5051 687_n.jpg

+
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/267238_196374900410287_100001133356751_479681_5951 385_n.jpg

+
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270408_196374673743643_100001133356751_479675_8216 923_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/267578_196374720410305_100001133356751_479676_7120 29_n.jpg
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/267544_196373133743797_100001133356751_479627_5652 4_n.jpg
The genesis of the earth and of man, a critical examination of passages in ... By Edward William Lane, Reginald Stuart Poole


+
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc6/270069_196374823743628_100001133356751_479679_5567 180_n.jpg

...
Can I proceed to post these kind of informations what are related to ancient Macedonians ?!
(because the topic is about ancient Macedonians)

DejaVu
09-12-11, 21:26
The book entitled "Ancient Greek and other Ancient Testimonies about the Unique Ethnic Distinctiveness of the Ancient Macedonians" contains testimony from more than fifty Greek and other ancient authors who clearly testified that the ancient Macedonians were not Greeks!

Some of these authors quoted are:
Arrian, Appian, Dexsipus, Demosthenes, Dicearhus, Caliphintes Dionysius, Dionysius of Halicarnassus, Dio Chrysostom, Diodor of Sicily, Dio Cassius, Eutropius, Eusebius of Caesarea, Aemolius Sura, Aeschines, Isocrates, Zosimus, Isidore of Seville, Johannes Malalaa, Flavius Josephus, Justin, Cicero, Quintus Curtius Rufus, Herodotus, Homer, Plutarch, Pausanias, Polybius, Claeneas, Claudianus, Clement of Alexandria, Marcus Veleus Paterculus, Cornelius Nepo, Praxagoras, Pseudo Scylax, Pseudo Scymnus and others.

Authentic quotes from the works of these authors are given along with this author’s own comments.

DejaVu
09-12-11, 21:42
http://pic.mk/images/image1282723701.jpg (http://pic.mk/images/image1282723701.jpg)

http://pic.mk/images/image1282723782.jpg (http://pic.mk/images/image1282723782.jpg)

http://pic.mk/images/image1282723811.jpg (http://pic.mk/images/image1282723811.jpg)
Page 83
of their ancient Country, destroyed by Vespasian, as they al-
ledge.
He likewise confutes their Opinion of their being descended from
Frisius, Son to Clogio, King of France, and that his Posterity paid a
Tribute of 260 Oxen to the French, as a Token of Homage, and
thinks it rather true, that the French derive their Origin from the
Freezlanders, according to Beatus Rhenanus and Adrianus Ju-
nius.
Then he attacks the Opinion of those who say, the Frison's are
descended from Grunius the Trojan, the Builder of Groningen, and
therefore writ them Phrysii, as nearer the Phryges their Progeni-
tors, and at last tells us his own Sentiments, that Freso, the Foun-
der of their Nation, with his Brethren Saxo and Bruno, came from
an Indian Province called Benedicta Fresia ; where having served
under Alexander the Great, and not daring to stay in the Coun-
try after his Death took shipping with what they could bring
off, and landing in this Country, called it Fresia, after his own
Name.
" This he insists upon at large in this Third Book, and thinks it the
more probable, because the Story of Saxo, the Founder of the
Saxon Nation, agrees with it. He says all Authors, Crantzius ex-
cepted, agree. That the Saxons were some Remains of the Mace-
donian Army ; and that before they came into Germany, they
were called Macedonians ; for this he quotes the German Chronicle, printed at Mentz, in 1482. the Annals of Freezland, and others."
His next Proof for this is ancient Rhimes, Constant Tradition,
and the Universal Opinion of the Frisons, who have entertained it
from Father to Son successively, and convey'd it to one another by
Rhimes, a Custom, says he, which the most prudent Nations have
made use of, as the readiest Preservative against Oblivion. He tells
us moreover, that all the Freezland. Historians he hath seen, give
their Suffrage this way.
As a further Proof of this, he alledges, That the Frisons were
constantly great Lovers of Learning, and therefore could easily pre-
serve their Origin and Antiquities from Oblivion. He says also, that
Freso, their Founder, was versed in all the Learning of the Greeks,
and erected a sort of Academies in many places, where Youth were
instructed in Learning, and the Art of War ; and that he erected
one particularly at Stavren, near Stavo's Temple, and placed a great
Library in the Temple it self.


Page 84
The Works of the LEARNED,
In the next place, he acquaints us, that both Frison and Saxon
Historians agree as to Saxo, and that the People of Freezland,
Saxony and Brunswick had formerly one and the same Language,
and form of Government.
Then he gives us an Account of the Arms of the Saxons and
Frisons, from the Heralds Books, and says, that when Friso had
the Defence of the German Ocean committed to his Charge, his
Arms were in a blue Field, three Silver Bars, oblique from the right
to the left, betwixt them 7 red Leaves of a Water Rose, 4 betwixt
the Dexter and the middle Bar, and 3 betwixt that and the Sinister.
These, says our Author, were the most ancient Arms of the Frisons,
and prove that they were used by their Princes, Dukes and Kings,
and that the 7 Leaves signified 7 Islands, into which Freezland was
formerly divided. Saxo's Coat, he tells us, was also a blew Field,
divided in the middle by a cross Line, from the right to the left, under
the same, at the dexter Point, there was a Lion, and at the sinister
Point a Dragon, their Heads almost joined, and looking upon one
another, with a pleasant Aspect. In the upper part there was an
Eagle flying with expanded Wings, looking upon them both. In this
place, he confutes Crantzius, who says, that those are but New
Bearings, and that Wittekind, Duke of Saxony, who was overcome by
Charlemagne, carried in his Ensigns a black Colt, but when he turn'd
Christian, changed it into a white one. He proves from Methodius,
who is many Centuries elder than Whittikindus, that the Saxons in
his time impressed a Lion upon their Coin. He observes, that
Wittikindus was not King of the Saxons, but one of those twelve
Princes (or Great Men) that governed Saxony by turns ; and there-
fore bore the Arms of the Country, and not his own. He also quotes
Wittikind the Monk, who in his 1st Book of Hatthagar, D. of Saxony,
says, that when he encouraged his Men to Battle, he took up the
Standard or Ensign (which they account Sacred) impressed with
a Lion and Dragon, and an Eagle hovering over them, by which he
would represent Fortitude and Prudence, and their Efficacy, and ex-
press constancy of Mind by motion of the Body.
In the rest of his Book he enquires after the Indian Fresia, and
thinks it to be the Pharrasii mentioned by Curtius, beyond the Ganges.
He pretends to trace Freso's Genealogy, as far as Shem, one of Noah's
Sons, and gives an Account of the Travels of Freso and his Bre-
thren, c. all which is submitted to the Readers Censure, it being ap-
plicable to Antiquaries better than to any other fort of Men.
ui bene conjecit Vatem bunc perhibebo optimum.
erarbi


http://pic.mk/images/saxonmk.bmp (http://pic.mk/images/saxonmk.bmp)
http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/cambrit/angsaxeng.html
(http://www.philological.bham.ac.uk/cambrit/angsaxeng.html)



Sasa, Republic of Macedonia
The village and surrounding mines were set up by Saxons, Germans, which settled north-eastern Macedonia in Middle Ages. The name Sasa originates from German Saxons, as Sasa means Saxon in Macedonian Language. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasa,_Republic_of_Macedonia

Sasa = Short form of Alexander (www.behindthename.com (http://www.behindthename.com))

Saxons known as Macedonians before - (Saxon=Sasa=Alexander) = Alexanders people or Macedonians = Same

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c0/POL_COA_Sas_I.svg/416px-POL_COA_Sas_I.svg.png
Ancient authors like Okolski say that the origin of these arms was in Saxony, and thus they are called Sas. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sas_(coat_of_arms)
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sas_(coat_of_arms))
Saxons
http://www.traditionalwitchcraft.com/index.php?title=Saxon&printable=yes

(http://www.traditionalwitchcraft.com/index.php?title=Saxon&printable=yes)French Kings (Robertians, Capetians . . .) - Saxon origin? http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm

(http://fmg.ac/Projects/MedLands/CAPET.htm)History of The Franks
The Franks provide the dynasty which can be seen as the first royal house of France. From them, in origin one of the Germanic tribes, the word France derives.
http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab74

(http://www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ab74)

Yetos
09-12-11, 22:46
the above can be true,

since Mercel create ministry of Greece and Fuhtel atThessaloniki

that means that Saxons or SaSA people were Germans

so Makedonians were Germans :grin:

MKD not FIROM
28-01-12, 20:54
HELLOOOO !!!
Good evening people of Europe , i am new in the Eupedia :)

MKD not FIROM
28-01-12, 20:56
Im wathing you very carefully :)

MKD not FIROM
28-01-12, 20:56
Id love this Thread:Macedonians because i am one of them

zanipolo
28-01-12, 23:20
Id love this Thread:Macedonians because i am one of them

are you sure?

do you have any evidence/proof?

MKD not FIROM
29-01-12, 00:23
are you sure?

do you have any evidence/proof?
Yes , I have , oops thats me :)))))))))0
It is my right ok acording to UN documents ?!

MKD not FIROM
29-01-12, 00:45
Venet !! nice slavic ?

MKD not FIROM
29-01-12, 17:24
Macedonian Y-DNA :


Noveski,Trivodalieva, Efremov 2006-09


Y Haplogroup
Macedonians


E1b1b1a-M78
15.60%


E1b1b1b-M81
0


E1b1b1c1-M34
2.40%


G-M201
3.80%


H-M69
1.40%


1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170
0


I1-M253
1.90%


I2a-P37b
27.50%


I2b1-M223
1.90%


J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2
3.30%


J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172
4.70%


J2a4b-M67
2.80%


J2b2-M241
5.20%


L-M22
0.50%


N1c-Tat
0.50%


P*(xR1)-92R7
0.50%


R1*-M173
0.50%


R1a1-SRY1532 *
14.20%


R1b1-P25
11.40%


T-M70
1.90%


TOTAL
100.00%


*R1a1= M448=L122 M459 SRY10831.2=SRY1532.2 | M516=L120 mutations

MKD not FIROM
29-01-12, 17:27
And this is Y-DNA from Albanians(25% of population Of R. Macedonia) in Macedonia:




Noveski,Trivodalieva, Efremov 2006-09





Y Haplogroup
Macedonians
Albanians
Others
Total


E1b1b1a-M78
15.60%
28.80%
14.30%
19.80%


E1b1b1b-M81
0
1.80%
0
0.60%


E1b1b1c1-M34
2.40%
1.80%
0
2%


G-M201
3.80%
2.70%
4.80%
3.50%


H-M69
1.40%
1.80%
14.30%
2.30%


1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170
0
1.80%
4.80%
0.90%


I1-M253
1.90%
6.30%
0
3.20%


I2a-P37b
27.50%
1.80%
0
17.50%


I2b1-M223
1.90%
1.80%
4.80%
2%


J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2
3.30%
1.80%
0
2.60%


J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172
4.70%
2.70%
9.50%
4.40%


J2a4b-M67
2.80%
2.70%
9.50%
3.20%


J2b2-M241
5.20%
13.50%
4.80%
7.90%


L-M22
0.50%
0%
0
0.30%


N1c-Tat
0.50%
0
0
0.30%


P*(xR1)-92R7
0.50%
0
4.80%
0.60%


R1*-M173
0.50%
0
0
0.30%


R1a1-SRY1532 *moe podolu
14.20%
12.60%
4.80%
13.10%


R1b1-P25
11.40%
18%
23.80%
14.30%


T-M70
1.90%
0
0
1.20%


TOTAL
100.00%
99.90%
100.20%
100.00%


* M448=L122 M459 SRY10831.2=SRY1532.2 | M516=L120 mutations

MKD not FIROM
29-01-12, 17:31
And this is from Pericic et. 2005
for Macedonians(ethnic)


Pericic 2005




haplogroups
mutation
Macedonians


E3b*
M35
0


E3b1
M78
2.53%


E3b1-a
M78a
21.53%


E3b2
M81
0


E3b3
M123
0


G
M201
5.10%


J
M212
0


J2e*
M102
2.50%


J2e1
M241
3.80%


J2*
M172
3.80%


J2f*
M67
0


J2f1
M92
2.50%


F*
M89
1.30%


H1
M82
0


I*
M170
0


I1a
M253
5.06%


I1b*
P37
29.11%


I1c
M223
0


K*(xP)
M9
1.27%


R1b
M173
5.06%


R1a
SRY-1532
15.19%


Q*
M242
0


P*(xQ,R1)
92r7
0

ILLYRIAN
13-10-14, 01:36
Greek without the real language and root "Phoenician alphabet", is nothing and nobody cared to speak it today, its over with the crap language. Even the ancient Macedonians didnt give a damn about it, used for all others to understand the common language in antiquity, like english is today. Modern Greek and Albanian language does not sound European at all. The Greek Civilization using others progress, who was not theirs, did not last long.

BEFORE YOU WRITE AND TALK JUST READ A LITTLE BIT MORE AND BE THE PUPIL OF "MORE" AND NOT A MORON.
DO YOU WAT TO BELIEVE OR NOT , DO YOU LIKE IT OR NOT THE TRUTH CAN NOT BE OPPOSITE.
JUST HAVE A LOOK AT THIS LINK postimg. org/image/w7k7exehr/ THE ALBANIAN ARMENIAN AND THE GREEK ARE THE FIRST ORIGNAL LANGUAGES.

AND BY THE WAY ILIRIA OR ILLYRIA CAN NOT BE TRANSLATED IN ANY OTHER LANGAGE ECXEPT THE ALBANIAN LANGUAGE
ILLYR - ILIR - ILIRIA - ILLYRIA = FREE MAN ,FREE COUNTRY , FREEDOM .

Dinarid
06-08-16, 22:30
The history of Bulgaria and its Empire is well known. One thing that must be remembered is that, if the Bulgarians are to be included in a discussion on whom the Macedonians of old were, the Bulgarians themselves have a very complex origin. Consequently, there can be no simple answer in drawing a connection between Bulgarians and Macedonians unless we specify Modern day Macedonians.

THAT IS CORRECT REGULUS

the Makedonians as we all know from ancient is Sub-Greek nation as Iones lakedaimonioi, magna grecani, Pontioi (euxeinus pontus), Cretans etc

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg

that is the central Argead Makedonia started from Holy Dion (where Hercules climb olymp)
Makednos, son of Hercules, and his sons, with help botieans push Pieri a thracian tribe to east and took their lands and establish a kingom, in AIGES (goats), later unite with Aeolians of West Makedonia, to a consultant Kingdom alliance (kings and 1 king to rule the kings) simmilar to mycenae system, Alexander was stoped but he's father Phillip took place in Olympic games as also Amyntas,
and Amyntas unite all, makedonians always expand until Phillip II took almost Greece and half Thrace,
as I say that has to do With Greek Makedonia as a region and also A NATION

later when Romans came they name Makedonia the area even to illyria and dardania,
but does that state makes Dardanians Makedonians?????????
NO WAY, Before kossyfo war, Kossyfo was in Yugoslavia, But WAS YUGOSLAVIA A NATION??????
today Basques are in Spain BUT ARE THEY CASTIGLIANNI????
WHEN INDIA WAS UNDER BRITISH EMPIRE WHERE INDIANS BRITISH?
NO WAY
so today Bulgarian people living in Skopje are they makedonians cause a Roman officer named a territory Makedonia????
NO WAY
ANOTHER NATION,
THE ROMAN PROVINCE OF MAKEDONIA WAS NOT AN ETHNICAL STATE,
SO DONT TELL ME A MAKEDONIAN THAT YOU ARE BROTHER TO ME CAUSE WE LIVE IN A AREA WHERE A THIRD NAMED AFTER THE NAME I GIVE TO MY NATION,

GERMANY IS GERMANY CAUSE GERMANS LIVE THERE
POLLAND IS NAMED CAUSE POLLANDS LIVE THERE
MAKEDONIA IS WHERE MAKEDONIANS LIVE AND NOT BULGARIANS,
WE DONT WANT TO UNITE TO STATE THAT A ROMAN BAPTISE BECAUSE IT WAS EASY HIM
WE HAVE OUR ANCIENT BROTHERS

Go FIND YOUR BROTHERS THE BULGARIANS,
AND UNITE WITH THEM TO A BIG BULGARIA


TRUE MAKEDONIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM
sais that kick away the none Greeks (barbarians with the original meaning, not the english version)

so inhabiting in russia does not make you a russian
how much inhabiting in Paeonia and name your self a makedonian

out of mind,

i am a mogol invader to korea, and i claim i am chinese, !!!!!!!!!

ALL THE MAPS YOU ARE SHOWING ARE ROMAN TIMES, NOT MAKEDONIAN TIMES,
CAUSE IF THE ROMANS BAPTISE YOU MAKEDONIAN< I DONT ACCEPT IT
OK PAEONIAN OR BULGARIAN OR SLAVIAN

MAKEDONIA IS ONE AND CREATED AND WAS AND IS AND WILL BE GREEK,

Now i dont care about joseph Bross Tito bullshit,
you are an indipendent nation, we dont claim nothing from you, we treat very nice,
for your thievery, BUT IT IS TIME TO GIVE US OUR NAME BACK,
WE DONT WANT YOUR LANDS, YOU WANT OURS, SO GET LOST WE NEVER SHOW AND NEVER WANTED TO GO TO SKOPJE YOU WANT TO TAKE OUR LANDS
MOLON LAVE
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

it is you that say Thessaloniki Alexanders sister solunu and want to conquer
we never said skopjie is greek
so get lost nazi
even Yane Sandanski was a bulgarian, Friend of the Turks you have same heroes,
Alexander is ours,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/23/August_30_1909_The_Cedar_Rapids_Evening_Gazette-Sandanski.jpg

We have suffer enough of you, but we don't give in,

we revolt many times and got free from turks before you
so bye bye


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/BattleofIssus333BC-mosaic-detail1.jpg



THAT HORSE HAD A NAME ΒΟΥΚΕΦΑΛΑΣ

Not Bolglavata
Oh great. Everyone knew this thread would be trouble as soon as they saw the name. Nice temper tantrum, by the way. In case you hadn't noticed, on Eupedia we pride ourselves in civilized debates and not throwing around insults, hyperbole, and emotional outbursts. You can take that to Topix or wherever but it is most certainly unwelcome here.

Dinarid
06-08-16, 22:32
We need moderators over here, this crap can't be allowed to pollute Eupedia.

VMRO1893
08-08-16, 03:34
http://greece.greekreporter.com/2016/07/31/fyrom-listed-as-macedonia-on-rio-2016-organizers-official-website/

VMRO1893
09-08-16, 03:23
An interesting article about descendants of ancient Macedonians in Pakistan

New Indo-European Language Discovered

A linguistics researcher at the Macquarie University in Australia has discovered that the language, known as Burushaski, which is spoken by about 90,000 people who reside in a remote area of Pakistan, is Indo-European in origin.

Prof Ilija Casule’s discovery, which has now been verified by a number of the world’s top linguists, has excited linguistics experts around the world.
An entire issue of the eminent international linguistics journal the Journal of Indo-European Studies (http://www.jies.org/) is devoted to a discussion of his findings later this month.
More than fifty eminent linguists have tried over many years to determine the genetic relationship of Burushaski. But it was Prof Casule’s painstaking research, based on a comprehensive grammatical, phonological, lexical and semantic analysis, which established that the Burushaski language is in fact an Indo-European language most likely descended from one of the ancient Balkan languages.
Prof Casule said that the language is most probably ancient Phrygian.
The Phrygians migrated from Macedonia to Anatolia (today part of Turkey) and were famous for their legendary kings who figure prominently in Greek mythology such as King Midas who turned whatever he touched into gold. They later migrated further east, reaching India. Indeed, according to ancient legends of the Burushaski (or Burusho) people, they are descendants of Alexander the Great.


Tracing the historical path of a language is no easy task. Prof Casule said he became interested in the origins of Burushaski more than 20 years ago.
“People knew of its existence but its Indo-European affiliation was overlooked and it was not analyzed correctly. It is considered a language isolate – not related to any other language in the world in much the same way that the Basque language is classified as a language isolate,” he added.
The remoteness of the area that was independent until the early 1970s when it became part of Pakistan, ensured Burushaski retained certain grammatical and lexical features that led Prof Casule to conclude it is a North-Western Indo-European language, specifically of the Paleobalkanic language group and that it corresponds most closely with Phrygian.
Prof Casule’s work is groundbreaking, not only because it has implications for all the Indo-European language groups, but also provides a new model for figuring out the origins of isolate languages – where they reside in the linguistic family tree and how they developed and blended with other languages to form a new language.
http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article00403.html

VMRO1893
09-08-16, 04:24
I think former Greek Prime Minister Constantine Mitsotakis stated the real problem over the name quite nicely in this quote from 1995;


“I understood the Skopje issue from the very beginning in its real dimension. What had concerned me from the very beginning was not the country’s name, which is related with the historical dimension of the problem and has mostly psychological and sentimental value. The problem for me was to avoid the emergence of a second minority problem in Western Macedonia. (...) For me, the aim had always been that that Republic should clearly state that there is no Slavomacedonian minority in Greece and to commit itself through international treaties to stop all irredentist propaganda against Greece. That was the key in the Greek-Skopjan dispute.”

Dinarid
09-08-16, 07:18
An interesting article about descendants of ancient Macedonians in Pakistan

New Indo-European Language Discovered

A linguistics researcher at the Macquarie University in Australia has discovered that the language, known as Burushaski, which is spoken by about 90,000 people who reside in a remote area of Pakistan, is Indo-European in origin.

Prof Ilija Casule’s discovery, which has now been verified by a number of the world’s top linguists, has excited linguistics experts around the world.
An entire issue of the eminent international linguistics journal the Journal of Indo-European Studies (http://www.jies.org/) is devoted to a discussion of his findings later this month.
More than fifty eminent linguists have tried over many years to determine the genetic relationship of Burushaski. But it was Prof Casule’s painstaking research, based on a comprehensive grammatical, phonological, lexical and semantic analysis, which established that the Burushaski language is in fact an Indo-European language most likely descended from one of the ancient Balkan languages.
Prof Casule said that the language is most probably ancient Phrygian.
The Phrygians migrated from Macedonia to Anatolia (today part of Turkey) and were famous for their legendary kings who figure prominently in Greek mythology such as King Midas who turned whatever he touched into gold. They later migrated further east, reaching India. Indeed, according to ancient legends of the Burushaski (or Burusho) people, they are descendants of Alexander the Great.


Tracing the historical path of a language is no easy task. Prof Casule said he became interested in the origins of Burushaski more than 20 years ago.
“People knew of its existence but its Indo-European affiliation was overlooked and it was not analyzed correctly. It is considered a language isolate – not related to any other language in the world in much the same way that the Basque language is classified as a language isolate,” he added.
The remoteness of the area that was independent until the early 1970s when it became part of Pakistan, ensured Burushaski retained certain grammatical and lexical features that led Prof Casule to conclude it is a North-Western Indo-European language, specifically of the Paleobalkanic language group and that it corresponds most closely with Phrygian.
Prof Casule’s work is groundbreaking, not only because it has implications for all the Indo-European language groups, but also provides a new model for figuring out the origins of isolate languages – where they reside in the linguistic family tree and how they developed and blended with other languages to form a new language.
http://www.sci-news.com/othersciences/linguistics/article00403.html
I remember this from a while back, and I thought group in question was the Kalash. They also aren't at all Macedonian, and this seems like a load of pseudo-science. Even if thethere are similarities, this doesn't make them by any means Macedonian.

DuPidh
16-10-16, 23:08
leaving in An area named Delaware by Usaers , does not make you a delaware, when delaware nation exist,

all the rest is imperialistic propaganda of gun industry, and politicians wgho gain by war,

I still dont understanded what the fyromians will earn by that?

only hate and wars

BESIDES EVERY BODY KNOWS THAT THEY ARE FAKE MAKEDONIANS.

AND CLAIMING AS BEFORE THAT MODERN MAKEDONIANS ARE SLAVS YOU JUST MAKE ME A SLAV,

CAUSE I M A MODERN MAKEDONIAN

the makedonia that catherin2 was dreamingas also some others bulgarians after 1876,
and today some politicks, will never be exist,
only by force,
we shall not admit to a state of 3 nations, cause that was roman then british, Russian and today USA politic,
to create states that are not 1 nation but many,
we have our problems, we don't want inserted ones by others who want to divine and conquer

and what language will have the state that fyromians claim?
bulgarian? Greek? cause there is no Makedonian language,
only an ancient Greek dialect
and only a today mixed bulgarian dialect?
so create problem with lingua
which will be the prime minister?
a Fyrom or a Greek?
which will the national anthem?
the greek makedonian or the fyrom one?

you see we dont need to enter that bullshit,
simply find a name for them, without stealing my name
and co-existance

what are you trying to do people, a new 2 lingua switzerland in balkans?
or a state like belgium?

since as you say they are slavs let them name their country as yugo-slavia
or zapad-bulgaria or VestBulgaria, Paeonia, Bardaska, albano-slavia, J B TITOnia. Sandaskya
Nova-slavia, Central-Balkania, etc
the name i accept with mak in it
is PSEUDO-MAKEDONIA

AND I M NOT A SLAV
CAUSE I AM MAKEDONIAN




Macedonians are a mixture of ancient population and Slavs. Slavic element and the ancient one is at 50/50 ratio as we have seen on their y DNA studies. Before Slavs came Macedonians were assimilated to Greek culture. The kept their ethnicity until 4 century ad when the assimilation was complete. Greek writers have documented this event and the world knows. So Slav Macedonians have the wright to claim Macedonian heritage since they have Macedonian blood in their veins.

Nik
17-10-16, 00:30
Macedonians are a mixture of ancient population and Slavs. Slavic element and the ancient one is at 50/50 ratio as we have seen on their y DNA studies. Before Slavs came Macedonians were assimilated to Greek culture. The kept their ethnicity until 4 century ad when the assimilation was complete. Greek writers have documented this event and the world knows. So Slav Macedonians have the wright to claim Macedonian heritage since they have Macedonian blood in their veins.
And which ydna is the Slavic one according to u? I2a-Din? R1a I accept for obvious reasons, although not all of it could be "Slavic".

And no, they don't have Macedonian blood in their veins, but rather Paeonian, Dardanian, and Thracian.

VMRO1893
17-10-16, 02:17
And which ydna is the Slavic one according to u? I2a-Din? R1a I accept for obvious reasons, although not all of it could be "Slavic".

And no, they don't have Macedonian blood in their veins, but rather Paeonian, Dardanian, and Thracian.

And what about the Macedonians from Pelagonia, Gevgelia and further south from today's Greek Macedonia?

Map of ethnic Macedonian territory from Eurominority;

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtUuoopzN59qv79kW4D4NMTvYxPPFJV X5BWigYAvCvZ0-g4MD5

LABERIA
17-10-16, 04:47
And what about the Macedonians from Pelagonia, Gevgelia and further south from today's Greek Macedonia?

Map of ethnic Macedonian territory from Eurominority;

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtUuoopzN59qv79kW4D4NMTvYxPPFJV X5BWigYAvCvZ0-g4MD5
First of all, does not exist an macedonian ethnicity.
Second, i don't know who produce this kind of maps. Is this one the "scientific" works of your famous firomski academy?

LABERIA
17-10-16, 04:59
Macedonians are a mixture of ancient population and Slavs. Slavic element and the ancient one is at 50/50 ratio as we have seen on their y DNA studies. Before Slavs came Macedonians were assimilated to Greek culture. The kept their ethnicity until 4 century ad when the assimilation was complete. Greek writers have documented this event and the world knows. So Slav Macedonians have the wright to claim Macedonian heritage since they have Macedonian blood in their veins.
We know few things about ancient Macedonians. If you read for example the page of Wikipedia about the language of ancient Macedonians, you can see that scholars have different opinions about their ethnicity.
If the today inhabitants of FYROM have in their veins blood from ancient populations of Balcan, this don't give the right to call themselves descendant of ancient Macedonians. They have the right to have their country and even to name it Macedonia, but they are slavs and they have nothing to do with Alexander The Great and stories like this.

LeBrok
17-10-16, 05:19
We know few things about ancient Macedonians. If you read for example the page of Wikipedia about the language of ancient Macedonians, you can see that scholars have different opinions about their ethnicity.
If the today inhabitants of FYROM have in their veins blood from ancient populations of Balcan, this don't give the right to call themselves descendant of ancient Macedonians. They have the right to have their country and even to name it Macedonia, but they are slavs and they have nothing to do with Alexander The Great and stories like this.On same basis Greeks shouldn't call themselves Greeks/Hellenes or English call themselves English. All similarities they have with ancient Greeks and Angles is location and similar language.
Perhaps we should let people to call themselves what they want? I don't mind calling Burma Myanmar, or Albania Shqiptar.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 06:17
On same basis Greeks shouldn't call themselves Greeks/Hellenes or English call themselves English. All similarities they have with ancient Greeks and Angles is location and similar language.
Perhaps we should let people to call themselves what they want? I don't mind calling Burma Myanmar, or Albania Shqiptar.
First, let's not mix greeks in this story.
Second, i explained my opinion about the issue of the name.
And third, let's not mix politics with history, two different things. What the Great Powers decide for their interests is one thing and history is another.

Azzurro
17-10-16, 06:29
Surely, there must be some ancient Macedonian blood in the current Macedonia, I don't think it would disappear but in terms of how much slav and how much ancient balkans are in the modern Macedonia, who knows? Only dna (au,Y and mt) can solve this.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 06:58
Surely, there must be some ancient Macedonian blood in the current Macedonia, I don't think it would disappear but in terms of how much slav and how much ancient balkans are in the modern Macedonia, who knows? Only dna (au,Y and mt) can solve this.
Of course there is ancient Macedonian among the inhabitants of FYROM. I am sure that we can find this blood even in Japan, China, Australia, USA, or Brasile. But a nation is not (au,Y and mt).

Yetos
17-10-16, 07:42
Makes me wonder why we re-open that thread.

Nik
17-10-16, 10:45
First of all the Ancient Macedonians lived far south of even what would be later known as Makedonia. They absorbed many Epirotes, Illyrians and Thracians and even resettled them in their cities which in turn increased their military power. They made up a large bulk of their famous phalangitai.

Even their royal family and many of the highest generals were actually Epirotes, which really makes Macedonians a newly formed or "expanded" ethnic group and that's when the problem of their language appears. We know for a fact that only the lowlands from the South spoke a language similar (or whatever) to Doric while the highlands and most of what became known as Makedonia were originally Illyrian and Thracian speakers.

Now going further north to Paeonia (modern FYROM), they're the last to be absorbed into their kingdom and it was actually the Roman/Byzantine Empire to finaly assimilate them into Greek speakers.

So in short, FYROMians have almost no Ancient Macedonian blood in their veins, but rather a Paeonian, Dardanian, Illyrian, Thracian, Slavic, etc mix.

Milan
17-10-16, 16:01
What "blood" is in whom :laughing:
Republic of Macedonia is reality the sooner their neighbors accept that the better,or they might want dimwitted (sorry) "ancient" Balkan man another Balkan war on the "Macedonian" issue,which in first place they made a issue out of it.
However this Republic came into being is totally irrelevant one should read more.
I am from Republic of Macedonia.To me personally name such is Macedonia,Bulgaria,Serbia,Greece are totally irrelevant,i am citizen of that country,not by my own choice i was born there,however i will identify is only my own option.That is my opinion and i couldn't care less what others think.

Then ancient Macedonia is totally different issue and that is history on which i support neither side,i admire their history whatever they have been,but this history arose in "nationalization" instead.

Milan
17-10-16, 16:13
Then i see many comments from Albanians,the amusing issue should be addressed,they call themselves Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia,that's how they were called by most of their neighbors.
Ever since creation of Republic of Albania they demand from their neighbors to be called Albanians instead Shqiptars,we respect that and call them as such,after all we all choose our names,they are called as such in R.Macedonia where they form large minority,but they very much have objection what other people call themselves as i see people from Albania.They even find derogatory their own name they use for themselves,but telling others how to call themselves,sorry that's bias and nationalism in typical Balkan style.
So Albanians come down a bit with that,i personally know many Albanians and had friends,not all think that way.

DuPidh
17-10-16, 16:29
We know few things about ancient Macedonians. If you read for example the page of Wikipedia about the language of ancient Macedonians, you can see that scholars have different opinions about their ethnicity.
If the today inhabitants of FYROM have in their veins blood from ancient populations of Balcan, this don't give the right to call themselves descendant of ancient Macedonians. They have the right to have their country and even to name it Macedonia, but they are slavs and they have nothing to do with Alexander The Great and stories like this.

A Greek origin Columbia University history professor says that the language of ancient Macedonians was Thraco-Illyrian. Thracians or Illyrians had the ability to conduct a conversation with ancient Macedonians without the need of a translator. This explains the event that Illyrians or Thracians often intermarried with Macedonians. But Ethnically today's Macedonians have the same amount of ancient blood in their vans as Macedonians from Greece have.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 18:38
What "blood" is in whom :laughing:
Republic of Macedonia is reality the sooner their neighbors accept that the better,or they might want dimwitted (sorry) "ancient" Balkan man another Balkan war on the "Macedonian" issue,which in first place they made a issue out of it.
Let me remeber you that at the beggining of 90s your country was totally isolated. The only country who opened the doors to your country was exactly Albania. Port of Durres was the only contact that you had with the world.

However this Republic came into being is totally irrelevant one should read more.
I am from Republic of Macedonia.To me personally name such is Macedonia,Bulgaria,Serbia,Greece are totally irrelevant,i am citizen of that country,not by my own choice i was born there,however i will identify is only my own option.That is my opinion and i couldn't care less what others think.
To you maybe it`s irrelevant but not for your compatriots, i mean here in this forum. Among other things, they like to play even with maps

Then ancient Macedonia is totally different issue and that is history on which i support neither side,i admire their history whatever they have been,but this history arose in "nationalization" instead.
Your government has another opinion.

Azzurro
17-10-16, 18:38
Of course there is ancient Macedonian among the inhabitants of FYROM. I am sure that we can find this blood even in Japan, China, Australia, USA, or Brasile. But a nation is not (au,Y and mt).

Yes exactly, I understand what your meaning is culture, identity, language defines an ethnic group to me this is more important than genetics as well, what I was trying to say is that the Macedonians today must have some Y, Mt and autosomal dna from the ancient Macedonians, so its partly in their blood.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 19:05
I remember that i had an bad experience time ago discussing with you. I asked ten times about the Sun and you answered ten times about the Moon. My intention is not offending you, but when i read this your post, the first question that comes to my mind is, are you under the efects of the drugs?

Then i see many comments from Albanians,the amusing issue should be addressed,they call themselves Shqiptar and their country Shqiperia,that's how they were called by most of their neighbors.
We call ourselves Shqiptar and our country Shqiperi.
In English: Albanian and Albania.
In Italian: Albanese. Country:Albania
In Greek: Αλβανός, Alvanós. Country: Αλβανία, Alvanía
In serb language: албански, albanski. Country: Албанија, Albanija.
In the language of FYROM: Албански, Albanski. Country:Албанија, Albanija.

Ever since creation of Republic of Albania they demand from their neighbors to be called Albanians instead Shqiptars,we respect that and call them as such,after all we all choose our names,they are called as such in R.Macedonia where they form large minority,
This is something new for me and all Albanians. When you will be more lucid, maybe you will explain better this strange theory.

but they very much have objection what other people call themselves as i see people from Albania.
Problems with reading bro?

They have the right to have their country and even to name it Macedonia

They even find derogatory their own name they use for themselves,
No, we find derogatory this kind of posts. It`s a shame that you post things like this.

but telling others how to call themselves,sorry that's bias and nationalism in typical Balkan style.
No, we are not telling how you will call yourselves. But in Balcan there are other nationalities and we intend to respect all the Balcan people. You have an issue with your name and you have to resolve it with other people, not with us.So, until then, we will call your country FYROM and the inhabitants fyromski or firomski, it`s the same.

So Albanians come down a bit with that,i personally know many Albanians and had friends,not all think that way.
After reading your posts, i doubt that you have ever meet an Albanian in your life. I doubt if you are abble to find in the map Albania.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 19:26
A Greek origin Columbia University history professor says that the language of ancient Macedonians was Thraco-Illyrian. Thracians or Illyrians had the ability to conduct a conversation with ancient Macedonians without the need of a translator. This explains the event that Illyrians or Thracians often intermarried with Macedonians. But Ethnically today's Macedonians have the same amount of ancient blood in their vans as Macedonians from Greece have.
There are many theories about the ethnicity of ancient Macedonians. There are different theories about their language:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language
For example, an important linguist, Giuliano Bonfante considered macedonians as Illyrians, but he didn`t considered Albanians as descendant of Illyrians.
Strabo for example tell us(i am using my words, it`s not a quote direct from the source) that ancient Macedonians and Epirotes, dress in similar way and cut their hairs almost in the same way, but they speak different languages.
These to explain to you that there are many theories and this things are complicated.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 19:29
Yes exactly, I understand what your meaning is culture, identity, language defines an ethnic group to me this is more important than genetics as well, what I was trying to say is that the Macedonians today must have some Y, Mt and autosomal dna from the ancient Macedonians, so its partly in their blood.

You know what? After 50 years for example E-V13 maybe will be the dominant haplogroup in FYROM.

Milan
17-10-16, 19:32
Let me remeber you that at the beggining of 90s your country was totally isolated. The only country who opened the doors to your country was exactly Albania. Port of Durres was the only contact that you had with the world.
I remember well the 90's,it was the only country that didn't had war in Yugoslavia,secede peacefully pretty better than most other countries at that time.
But stories that you are telling might be known only there.


To you maybe it`s irrelevant but not for your compatriots, i mean here in this forum. Among other things, they like top play even with maps


So what if they post maps from Macedonia? it is region where they are from and their ancestors used to live and are not going anywhere,accept it.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 19:38
I remember well the 90's,it was the only country that didn't had war in Yugoslavia,secede peacefully pretty better than most other countries at that time.
But stories that you are telling might be known only there.
You seceded peacefully, but you were isolated from North, war in Yugoslavi, south the issue of the name with Greece and east with Bulgaria. The only country who opened the gates unconditionally to you was Albania.



So what if they post maps from Macedonia? it is region where they are from and their ancestors used to live and are not going anywhere,accept it.
I have problems when people are deliberately incorrect and when they post falsifications.

Milan
17-10-16, 19:46
I remember that i had an bad experience time ago discussing with you. I asked ten times about the Sun and you answered ten times about the Moon. My intention is not offending you, but when i read this your post, the first question that comes to my mind is, are you under the efects of the drugs?
You might have problems understanding,you live in different world by friend.



We call ourselves Shqiptar and our country Shqiperi.
In English: Albanian and Albania.
In Italian: Albanese. Country:Albania
In Greek: Αλβανός, Alvanós. Country: Αλβανία, Alvanía
In serb language: албански, albanski. Country: Албанија, Albanija.
In the language of FYROM: Албански, Albanski. Country:Албанија, Albanija.
We also called you Shqiptars but you find it derogatory,there wasn't ethnic term Albanian in history,and we call you Albanci now because you insist on that,i have nothing against that,in medieval language you were Arbanashi.That is history if you have problems with that just don't read it thought.


No, we are not telling how you will call yourselves. But in Balcan there are other nationalities and we intend to respect all the Balcan people. You have an issue with your name and you have to resolve it with other people, not with us.So, until then, we will call your country FYROM and the infhabitants fyromski or firomski, it`s the same.


I have issue with no one,i pretty much travel anywhere i want with my passport,that "issue" with Greece doesn't affect my life at all,what they does is they block the country from joining the EU and Nato with that name,so what?
You can call whatever you like,your opinion and words are totally irrelevant.
I can call you Shqiptar,Bashibozuk and Turk in return.Also your country former province of Serbia.Greece former Ottoman province.How civilized of me that will be.

After reading your posts, i doubt that you have ever meet an Albanian in your life. I doubt if you are abble to find in the map Albania.
In reality i grow up with some of them in my old neighborhood...

Milan
17-10-16, 19:55
You seceded peacefully, but you were isolated from North, war in Yugoslavi, south the issue of the name with Greece and east with Bulgaria. The only country who opened the gates unconditionally to you was Albania.
Thank you Albania then :D



I have problems when people are deliberately incorrect and when they post falsifications.
Man your entire school system is based that you are descendants of Illyrians of entire province of Illyricum without proof have busts of queen Teuta and you are giving advices.You are nothing better than the bunch of Macedonians that practice that,plus mainstream history never stated such things,that current Macedonia descent from ancient,but your mainstream does say that you are Illyrian,is it there a differencee?
Have a good day/night,it was enough of Balkan issues,if you want to discuss them might someone will join you,there is better threads in this forum.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 20:00
You might have problems understanding,you live in different world by friend.
I think the same for you and let me explain why.


We also called you Shqiptars but you find it derogatory,there wasn't ethnic term Albanian either in history,and we call you Albanci now because you insist on that,i have nothing against that,in medieval language you were Arbanashi.That is history if you have problems with that just don't read it thought.
Try to be serious. We have problems with an derogatory term used by serb propaganda: Shiftar. This is ofensive for us, not Shqiptar. Do you understand


I have issue with no one,i pretty much travel anywhere i want with my passport,that "issue" with Greece doesn't affect my life at all,what they does is they block the country from joining the EU and Nato with that name,so what?
You can call whatever you like,your opinion and words are totally irrelevant.

It became a member of the United Nations (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations) in 1993, but, as a result of an ongoing dispute with Greece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute) over the use of the name Macedonia, was admitted under the provisional description the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia#cite_note-10)[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia#cite_note-11) (sometimes unofficially abbreviated as FYROM), a term that is also used by international organizations such as the European Union (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union),[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia#cite_note-12) the Council of Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe)[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia#cite_note-13) and NATO (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO).[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia#cite_note-14)
This is how the world know you for the moment. I don`t know what will happens latter.

I can call you Shqiptar,Bashibozuk and Turk in return.Also your country former province of Serbia.Greece former Ottoman province.How civilized of me that will be.
Appart Shqiptar which i agree and i have no problem you have no historicall or official right to call me Bashibozuk and Turk.If you continue to do, i will report you.

In reality i grow up with some of them in my old neighborhood...
I start to doubt if you have ever been in FYROM.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 20:06
Thank you Albania then :D



Man your entire school system is based that you are descendants of Illyrians of entire province of Illyricum without proof have busts of queen Teuta and you are giving advices.You are nothing better than the bunch of Macedonians that practice that,plus mainstream history never stated such things,that current Macedonia descent from ancient,but your mainstream does say that you are Illyrian,is it there a differencee?
Have a good day i won't discuss this issues there is better threads in this forum.
Let me explain you something. During the middle age(i don`t know when this started) with Macedonian were known Albanians and not some Bulgars who lost their way in the corridors and drawers of UDB.

Milan
17-10-16, 20:15
Let me explain you something. During the middle age(i don`t know when this started) with Macedonian were known Albanians and not some Bulgars who lost their way in the corridors and drawers of UDB.
So basically the Shqiptars (Albanians) are not only Illyrians and Pelasgians but also ancient Macedonians,i mean i noticed this,i know this is popular among hardcore Albanian nationalists such is yourself just don't hide that.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 20:29
So basically the Shqiptars (Albanians) are not only Illyrians and Pelasgians but also ancient Macedonians,i mean i noticed this,i know this is popular among hardcore Albanian nationalists such is yourself just don't hide that.

First, if you decide to call us as we call ourselves, then learn Albanian and in this case use Shqiptaret. You can not take this s from English and attach it to an Albanian word.
Second, our neighbors called us Macedonians, not hardcore Albanian nationalists.

Milan
17-10-16, 20:39
First, if you decide to call us as we call ourselves, then learn Albanian and in this case use Shqiptaret. You can not take this s from English and attach it to an Albanian word.
Second, our neighbors called us Macedonians, not hardcore Albanian nationalists.
Ok issue solved Albanians are descendants of ancient Macedonians and Illyrians.

LABERIA
17-10-16, 21:08
Ok issue solved Albanians are descendants of ancient Macedonians and Illyrians.
And we learned that you have difficulty to follow a decent conversation.

Yetos
17-10-16, 21:28
I see why we re-open the thread,

Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
as Etruscans and Cypriots,

Did I forgot someone?

LABERIA
17-10-16, 21:38
I see why we re-open the thread,

Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
as Etruscans and Cypriots,

Did I forgot someone?

No, as usually you are not correct. But this is something that all here know. Nothing new.

Nik
17-10-16, 23:57
Laberia, wait until Milan exposes himself with the theory that Thracians were Slavs and Slavs spread from the Balkans to the North. Since the ancient Macedonians are sometimes related to Thracians, I wouldn't be surprised to hear from him that Alexander the Great was a Slav too.

And this very same guy has the guts to accuse Albanians of propaganda, when all we do is point all the time the similarities we Balkan people have culturally, anthropologically, and genetically, while all u do is trying to distance urselves from being related to Albanians at all costs. I'm sure that every time u read genetic papers indicating a shared common ancestry with Albanians ur brains defense system starts to create fantasy theories on how Slavs left their genetic imprint in Albania while on their to be the Sea People and later on Philistines and whatever other funny theory u support.

So id rather stick to being an Albanian who sees Montenegrins, Herzegovinians, Serbs and Greeks as our closest kin despite speaking different languages rather than be blind by hatred and believe to be unique and different from all.

Oh and Yetos, I'm really curious to know that out of ur over 3000 posts how many times people actually debated with u or even considered ur imput. Ur like a complimentary hater package for everyone daring to mention the word Albanian in a topic. Were u a victim of abuse by Albanian immigrants in Greece or it's an innate reaction?

Milan
18-10-16, 00:30
Laberia, wait until Milan exposes himself with the theory that Thracians were Slavs and Slavs spread from the Balkans to the North. Since the ancient Macedonians are sometimes related to Thracians, I wouldn't be surprised to hear from him that Alexander the Great was a Slav too.

Very pitty that you will not hear that,also i do not suggest any spread from south to north or opposite.I am against flood "great migration" which is very visible above all in our genetics,archeology is different issue.That's from my thread perhaps 6th and 7th century that is.The similarities of the languages to a degree were noted by linguists not by me.Also this Thracian-Macedonian connection was brought by your compatriots.

And this very same guy has the guts to accuse Albanians of propaganda, when all we do is point all the time the similarities we Balkan people have culturally, anthropologically, and genetically, while all u do is trying to distance urselves from being related to Albanians at all costs.
I always point to similarities,but the thing that i don't agree with nationalistic propaganda is rather different.


So id rather stick to being an Albanian who sees Montenegrins, Herzegovinians, Serbs and Greeks as our closest kin despite speaking different languages rather than be blind by hatred and believe to be unique and different from all.
Very weird you and your compatriots express that,while maintaning that Albanians were Illyrians once living in entire Illyricum that's almost all Yugoslavia, let alone Pelasgians and ancient Macedonians.Sorry that i am not adherent to that theory either,pure phantasmagoria.

Nik
18-10-16, 06:17
Very pitty that you will not hear that,also i do not suggest any spread from south to north or opposite.I am against flood "great migration" which is very visible above all in our genetics,archeology is different issue.That's from my thread perhaps 6th and 7th century that is.The similarities of the languages to a degree were noted by linguists not by me.Also this Thracian-Macedonian connection was brought by your compatriots.
Ur opposition to the "great migration" could be simply justified by linguistic assimilation, which is the most common cause of any regions linguistic change. But u can't accept that, can u?

And the Thracian-Macedonian connection is a fact as Thracians contributed A LOT to the Macedonian ethnos, probably more than any other ethnicity back then, including the real old Macedonians (if they ever existed as a separate ethnicity).



Very weird you and your compatriots express that,while maintaning that Albanians were Illyrians once living in entire Illyricum that's almost all Yugoslavia, let alone Pelasgians and ancient Macedonians.Sorry that i am not adherent to that theory either,pure phantasmagoria.
Ure a member of this forum for some time and u still can't accept that Albanians are genetically and linguistically local and to make things harder for u Slavs we're rather too Southern in terms of haplogroups, making all the Northern migration theories laughable.

And stoo trying to twist words to make us look like the bad guys as we never claimed to be numerous enough to occupy the entire Illyricum. Unfortunately we lost most of our closest cousins to a cause called Pan-Slavism through assimilation and brainwashing, although I believe Vlachs suffered from it even more.

Long story short, stop labeling urself as a truth seeker as we've all seen how u ridiculously try to argue with Taranis on several occasions and how u shamefully ignore all the genetic data just to prove that Slavs r indigenous and Albanians are not.

So again, FYROMians are not at all Ancient Macedonians but Paeonians, Dardanians, Illyro-Thracians with a slight Slavic admixture. This is a fact and just stick to the topic instead of disregarding facts just because an Albanian pointed them out.

Milan
18-10-16, 08:02
I never brought your origin in question which is something I care less,neither i care you are indigenous or not.Why are you so much obsessed with other people origin.If you ask me perhaps you are indigenous from Balkan or somewhere around it but i don't believe in phantasmagoria you does.Depends if we speak on language,genetics or whatever in what period of time.Vlachs are the perfect citizens of Balkans they don't bother with this rather they stick where they live so please don't use them for your cause.Romanians even used OCS in churches until 19th century which doesn't made them Slavs.Your theory is so wrong.As for claiming a mixture for others but you the perfect non assimilated like Vlachs or Slavs, just take a look in your language,which is mix of Latin(Vlach)Greek,Ottoman Turkish,Slavic,unkown and native Albanian making it hard to connect to any language.Shqiptars are mixture of what according to language or genetics,really sorry that discussion with you in this topic always go this way,I hope that can be improved if not why are we disscusing this.I really don't come on this forum to argue about that,but i just adressed some propaganda which was indirectly against me,if you don't like it don't read it and I don't know why 3-4 people with Albanian origin comment on Ancient Macedonian origin and current R.Macedonia for which two separate threads need to be open,how this "issue" affect you.

LABERIA
18-10-16, 11:29
Very weird you and your compatriots express that,while maintaning that Albanians were Illyrians once living in entire Illyricum that's almost all Yugoslavia, let alone Pelasgians and ancient Macedonians.Sorry that i am not adherent to that theory either,pure phantasmagoria.
This distortion of reality is not correct. The opinion of Albanians about their ethnogenesis, connections with Illyrians and problems like this has been explained by Albanian and international scholars. Speaking about Albanians, you have to take in consideration this:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_of_Sciences_of_Albania
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Centre_of_Albanological_Studies
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Tirana
and other important insitutes. The opinion of Albanians, of course is not represented by some bloggers, members of internet forums, let alone some serbs who use Albanian nickname in forums(we had the visit of a couple of them here).
It is accepted by the scientific community that the Albanians are a paleo-Balkan populations, in linguistic and genetic terms. From all the ancient populations who once lived in Balcan peninsula, ancient greeks, Illyrians, Thracians, Dacians, ancient macedonians, etc, only two survived, Albanians and Vlachs. Albanians, from the majority of scientific community are seen as descendants of Illyrians, meanwhile about the vlachs there are many theories, but we are not sure if they are connected with today Romanians or not, etc. From all the ancient languages of this Peninsula only Albanian survived. For this reason, exist many theories.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory

In modern science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Science), the term "theory" refers to scientific theories (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory), a well-confirmed type of explanation of nature (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nature), made in a way consistent (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consistency) with scientific method (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method), and fulfilling the criteria (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_theory#Characteristics_of_theories) required by modern science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_science). Such theories are described in such a way that any scientist in the field is in a position to understand and either provide empirical (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Empirical_evidence) support ("verify (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_%28truth%29)") or empirically contradict ("falsify (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability)") it. Scientific theories are the most reliable, rigorous, and comprehensive form of scientific knowledge,[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#cite_note-4) in contrast to more common uses of the word "theory" that imply that something is unproven or speculative (which is better characterized by the word 'hypothesis').[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#cite_note-5) Scientific theories are distinguished from hypotheses (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypothesis), which are individual empirically testable conjectures (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conjecture), and scientific laws (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_laws), which are descriptive accounts of how nature will behave under certain conditions.

Definitions from scientific organizations


The United States National Academy of Sciences (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_National_Academy_of_Sciences) defines scientific theories as follows:
The formal scientific definition of "theory" is quite different from the everyday meaning of the word. It refers to a comprehensive explanation of some aspect of nature that is supported by a vast body of evidence. Many scientific theories are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them substantially. For example, no new evidence will demonstrate that the Earth does not orbit around the sun (heliocentric theory), or that living things are not made of cells (cell theory), that matter is not composed of atoms, or that the surface of the Earth is not divided into solid plates that have moved over geological timescales (the theory of plate tectonics)...One of the most useful properties of scientific theories is that they can be used to make predictions about natural events or phenomena that have not yet been observed.[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#cite_note-14)

From the American Association for the Advancement of Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Association_for_the_Advancement_of_Scienc e):
A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact.[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory#cite_note-AAAS_Evolution_Resources-13)


Many theories become obsolete and proven unfounded, new theories arise. This is how roll the world and of course the science. I have explained more than once in this forum that the opinion of modern Albanian scholars that there is no prove of connection between Albanian language and the language spoken from Pelasgian population. We don`t know nothing about this populations. If you consider as a credible source of your information, people without an academic background, without a name but just nicknames, this is your problem, not ours.

Very pitty that you will not hear that,also i do not suggest any spread from south to north or opposite.I am against flood "great migration" which is very visible above all in our genetics,archeology is different issue.That's from my thread perhaps 6th and 7th century that is.The similarities of the languages to a degree were noted by linguists not by me.Also this Thracian-Macedonian connection was brought by your compatriots.
I always point to similarities,but the thing that i don't agree with nationalistic propaganda is rather different.
Except theories also exist pseudo-theories. And this part of your post is an typical pseudo-theory. And this is not product of some sick minds. NO. This is official:
https://turkeymacedonia.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/alexander-the-great-statue-giant.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Skopje_Alexander_the_Great_Airport.jpg
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/56530939.jpg

Just for curiosity, why you are so obssesed with Alexander III and Philip II? Their names suggest that were other Alexander and Philip, Kings of Macedonia. Let me help you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty#Dynasty
Would be nice if for example you name a square Archelaus II or Amyntas III.

Nik
18-10-16, 11:50
I never brought your origin in question which is something I care less,neither i care you are indigenous or not.Why are you so much obsessed with other people origin.If you ask me perhaps you are indigenous from Balkan or somewhere around it but i don't believe in phantasmagoria you does.Depends if we speak on language,genetics or whatever in what period of time.Vlachs are the perfect citizens of Balkans they don't bother with this rather they stick where they live so please don't use them for your cause.Romanians even used OCS in churches until 19th century which doesn't made them Slavs.Your theory is so wrong.As for claiming a mixture for others but you the perfect non assimilated like Vlachs or Slavs, just take a look in your language,which is mix of Latin(Vlach)Greek,Ottoman Turkish,Slavic,unkown and native Albanian making it hard to connect to any language.Shqiptars are mixture of what according to language or genetics,really sorry that discussion with you in this topic always go this way,I hope that can be improved if not why are we disscusing this.I really don't come on this forum to argue about that,but i just adressed some propaganda which was indirectly against me,if you don't like it don't read it and I don't know why 3-4 people with Albanian origin comment on Ancient Macedonian origin and current R.Macedonia for which two separate threads need to be open,how this "issue" affect you.
1) Can u actually give me a specific example of this phantasmagoria u speak of? Coz i believe ur putting words in my mouth based on what u read from other Albanians.

2) Find me the post where I said "we are the perfect non mixed" people and I will take it back and apologize.

3) What's the problem with a language having loan words? It reflects its history and instead of using it against me u should actually be amazed how this language survived after so many invasions. But I guess u will never let ur guard down against ur "natural enemy" and hate us at all costs until ur last day and make sure to pass to ur children the hate for Siptari.

4) Can u deny the fact that u have Ottoman, Latin, Greek, German, and Albanian words in ur language?

5) What propaganda did I use against u or Macedonians? That u live in the lands of Ancient Paeonia, Dardanian, Illyria and Thracian? That is propaganda to u?

6) 3-4 people of Albanian origin commented on the thread about Macedonians because they want and they can. That's why we're members of this forum, to comment wherever we are interested to share an opinion or feel the need to ask for information. Is that a problem to u?

LABERIA
18-10-16, 11:59
I never brought your origin in question which is something I care less,neither i care you are indigenous or not.Why are you so much obsessed with other people origin.If you ask me perhaps you are indigenous from Balkan or somewhere around it but i don't believe in phantasmagoria you does.Depends if we speak on language,genetics or whatever in what period of time.Vlachs are the perfect citizens of Balkans they don't bother with this rather they stick where they live so please don't use them for your cause.Romanians even used OCS in churches until 19th century which doesn't made them Slavs.Your theory is so wrong.As for claiming a mixture for others but you the perfect non assimilated like Vlachs or Slavs, just take a look in your language,which is mix of Latin(Vlach)Greek,Ottoman Turkish,Slavic,unkown and native Albanian making it hard to connect to any language.Shqiptars are mixture of what according to language or genetics,really sorry that discussion with you in this topic always go this way,I hope that can be improved if not why are we disscusing this.I really don't come on this forum to argue about that,but i just adressed some propaganda which was indirectly against me,if you don't like it don't read it and I don't know why 3-4 people with Albanian origin comment on Ancient Macedonian origin and current R.Macedonia for which two separate threads need to be open,how this "issue" affect you.
Does not exist the concept of ethnic purity. Albanians as a nation have important admixtures, but not decisive. Testimonies for this is our language, which is not an mix of Latin(Vlach)Greek,Ottoman Turkish,Slavic,unkown and native Albanian. You are wrong and i consider pointless to explain to you the influence of other languages in Albanian and the the influence of Albanians in other Balcan languages. Your problem is that you don`t know nothing about this topics. Start to read first what processes happened in the last 200 years with the languages of greeks, serbs, romanians, turks, etc. This processes did not happened with the Albanian language.
Honestly, there is nothing to discuss about you. You have to be proud about your slav ancestors and stop inventing this new glorious ancestors.
Problem is when you start to distort history and start to play with maps.

VMRO1893
19-10-16, 01:31
I am surprised to see so many Albanians challenging Macedonians to call themselves as such, especially since both Albania and Kosovo recognize us as such, both our state and the Macedonian ethnicity and language. I would have expected Greek posters to post their opposition to us, but not so much Albanians. Perhaps Greeks are sick of the issue, as we are. Time to close this ridiculous name issue and move on.

Yetos
19-10-16, 05:32
Makedonians and rest Greeks are clear enough from 1990's,

Stop stupidity of provocative behavour and hostility of Great makedonia,
there is only one true Makedonia from antique,

Roman territory of Makedonia is not Makedonian ethnicity,
although since Slavs exist more than 1 millenium, to the area,
and both Slavs and Greeks affected culture and history to both countries
and FYROM shows anex to Aromani and rest populations,
many Makedonians accept the term SlavoMakedonia,
which can conclude the term Makedonia you demand,
and also is according history,

Everything else that contains the Term Makedonia is unaccapted.
land demanding and 'freedom' issues, are unaccepted, since if Fyrom raises fortune and population demand,
MAkedonian unions and Greece will also raise the same to the FYROM from Perlepe to Monasterion to Stromnitsa to Eugeleia.

Today at Skopia are 1280 Greek corporations and 6% of working places are created from them,
and about 3% is working to Greece, as Dzeri Naumov said.

plus that 10 years now, a number of Fyrom military officers and special forces and police officers are trained in Greece 1 or 2 years, as OTAN cooperative program.

VMRO1893
19-10-16, 06:15
Makedonians and rest Greeks are clear enough from 1990's,

Stop stupidity of provocative behavour and hostility of Great makedonia,
there is only one true Makedonia from antique,

Roman territory of Makedonia is not Makedonian ethnicity,
although since Slavs exist more than 1 millenium, to the area,
and both Slavs and Greeks affected culture and history to both countries
and FYROM shows anex to Aromani and rest populations,
many Makedonians accept the term SlavoMakedonia,
which can conclude the term Makedonia you demand,
and also is according history,

Everything else that contains the Term Makedonia is unaccapted.
land demanding and 'freedom' issues, are unaccepted, since if Fyrom raises fortune and population demand,
MAkedonian unions and Greece will also raise the same to the FYROM from Perlepe to Monasterion to Stromnitsa to Eugeleia.

Today at Skopia are 1280 Greek corporations and 6% of working places are created from them,
and about 3% is working to Greece, as Dzeri Naumov said.

plus that 10 years now, a number of Fyrom military officers and special forces and police officers are trained in Greece 1 or 2 years, as OTAN cooperative program.

Whether you like it or not, there is more than one Macedonia. I am happy for an identifier to be added to our name to resolve the issue, however ''Slav'' is not it, since about 30% our population is not Slavic. Vardar, Northern or Upper Macedonia will most likely be the compromise. As far as minority rights, that issue was dealt with in the 1995 Interim accord and that issue is closed from an official govt perspective.

Yes, our two countries co-operate and work together on a number of fronts and this will intensify, especially when the name issue is resolved. Our people still love to visit Greece for holidays and there is really no animosity towards Greeks.

Yetos
19-10-16, 06:56
Whether you like it or not, there is more than one Macedonia. I am happy for an identifier to be added to our name to resolve the issue, however ''Slav'' is not it, since about 30% our population is not Slavic. Vardar, Northern or Upper Macedonia will most likely be the compromise. As far as minority rights, that issue was dealt with in the 1995 Interim accord and that issue is closed from an official govt perspective.

Yes, our two countries co-operate and work together on a number of fronts and this will intensify, especially when the name issue is resolved. Our people still love to visit Greece for holidays and there is really no animosity towards Greeks.

North, Nova, etc Makedonia are rejected 20 years now from Greece,

VMRO1893
19-10-16, 07:45
North, Nova, etc Makedonia are rejected 20 years now from Greece,

Well it seems we will remain FYR Macedonia for some time to come then.

LABERIA
19-10-16, 07:56
And what about the Macedonians from Pelagonia, Gevgelia and further south from today's Greek Macedonia?

Map of ethnic Macedonian territory from Eurominority;

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQtUuoopzN59qv79kW4D4NMTvYxPPFJV X5BWigYAvCvZ0-g4MD5

Can you post a link where we can see this map and also we can read the article related to it, pls?

Milan
19-10-16, 09:25
I can accept northern,nova,upper,slavomacedonia to me personally is irrelevant especially when we have greek macedonia, slavo can be language identifier but as VMRO said we have minorities and not to all native language is Slavic.This however is up to citizens to decide as a whole,but this identifier will be for UN,EU,council of Europe,Nato and organizations as such where Greece has Veto.Still on bilateral relations countries that recognize Macedonia it will be called as such,citizens on the other hand can call themselves whatever they like including their country.

Yetos up to 80% Macedonians that go on vacations go in Greece,the rest 20% on other places,my last two vacations were in Chalkidiki,still many visit Thesaloniki for shopping,on the other hand as you said Greeks are coming here including companies,corporations etc no one bother them,you also said that you visit some places here.This "animosity" is non existent and is unnatural to exist among both neighboring countries on bilateral relations,which is bad for both including citizens.
Then if stubbornity continue we can see many more provocations which are fueled by politicians with a cause in the first place,still that doesn't touch their relations as i see.
That is my opinion only.

Milan
19-10-16, 10:08
Except theories also exist pseudo-theories. And this part of your post is an typical pseudo-theory. And this is not product of some sick minds. NO. This is official:
https://turkeymacedonia.files.wordpress.com/2011/06/alexander-the-great-statue-giant.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6f/Skopje_Alexander_the_Great_Airport.jpg
http://static.panoramio.com/photos/original/56530939.jpg

Just for curiosity, why you are so obssesed with Alexander III and Philip II? Their names suggest that were other Alexander and Philip, Kings of Macedonia. Let me help you:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argead_dynasty#Dynasty
Would be nice if for example you name a square Archelaus II or Amyntas III.
I really do not know why you post monuments,there is other of them if you like,don't be so selective :D
Justinian who was born near Skopje
http://www.regent-holidays.co.uk/upload-files/product-tours-days/DAY-ITN_MAC_004_2466.jpg

Tsar Samuil
http://www.grreporter.info/gr/sites/default/files/car_Samuil-pametnik.jpg

There is many more ... Tsar Dushan
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/236x/0b/26/ed/0b26edb1616784b712f024d08730e281.jpg

People that somehow were connected to that country.

There is the house of mother Teresa as Albanian do you like her? There is also Scanderbeg Albanian national hero? but it will take to many pictures.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/85/Memorial_house_of_Mother_Teresa.jpg

For your curiosity all of this has it's controversy and little you know about it,not all support this among the citizens and the opposition party is highly against it,i have no opinion on that although i don't like so many monuments.
Everyone build whatever he likes,then just 80 years ago on that square was king of Yugoslavia.Who knows the next 80 years?
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c6/Skopje_stari_spomenici.jpg?1476864817240

As you can see not everything is tied to nationalism and hatred you know of,on your next comments i won't even answer.

Nik
19-10-16, 11:39
I am surprised to see so many Albanians challenging Macedonians to call themselves as such, especially since both Albania and Kosovo recognize us as such, both our state and the Macedonian ethnicity and language. I would have expected Greek posters to post their opposition to us, but not so much Albanians. Perhaps Greeks are sick of the issue, as we are. Time to close this ridiculous name issue and move on.
I don't know where u got the idea that we're challenging the name of Macedonia. AFAIK u can call urselves whatever u want.

I simply stated a fact regarding the connection between modern and Ancient Macedonian people, since there's no connection whatsoever as the Ancient Macedonia was further South. The name is a completely different matter which Albanians couldn't care less.

With regards to the animosity between us, I think it exists and in high levels. I have very good friends and even best friends from Montenegro especially, Serbia, and Greece, but never a single Macedonian was willing to get to know us. And it's so interesting because we barely know u or notice u in Albania for example as people think only of Serbs, Greeks, and a Turks as countries that have harmed us.

Milan
19-10-16, 13:14
I don't know where u got the idea that we're challenging the name of Macedonia. AFAIK u can call urselves whatever u want.

I simply stated a fact regarding the connection between modern and Ancient Macedonian people, since there's no connection whatsoever as the Ancient Macedonia was further South. The name is a completely different matter which Albanians couldn't care less.

With regards to the animosity between us, I think it exists and in high levels. I have very good friends and even best friends from Montenegro especially, Serbia, and Greece, but never a single Macedonian was willing to get to know us. And it's so interesting because we barely know u or notice u in Albania for example as people think only of Serbs, Greeks, and a Turks as countries that have harmed us.
Nick the issue is more complex and better not to go that far im done with this thread.
You seem more reasonable and to the contrary i don't see anymosity it depends to people like elsewhere and as far friendship goes i meet many Albanians almost on daily basis,i did had friends prior but he moved in Swizerland like you,maybe this antropology board is more of a problem cause history is being discussed.
Never meet Albanians from Albania and never visited Albania yet,but i hope next years,we all just have our daily life problems,work,home etc.

blevins13
19-10-16, 15:10
I see why we re-open the thread,

Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
as Etruscans and Cypriots,

Did I forgot someone?

No this is notcorrect, Albanians are claiming only that they are autochthones in theBalkans and their DNA shows that. The rest is just assumption.
One question for you, since I don’t know the Ancient Greekhistory very well, so who are the real greeks, the people that live before Doric migration or the Doric tribes.

DejaVu
19-10-16, 18:15
Albanians are claiming only that they are autochthones in theBalkans and their DNA shows that.

Provide link of statement (DNA shows that).

blevins13
19-10-16, 19:31
Provide link of statement (DNA shows that).

This is Macedonian thread, but there is one for Albanians I think and there were one study that was suggesting that Albanians after Sardinians are the second most indigenous in Europe. I can't post links yet.

DejaVu
19-10-16, 19:37
This is Macedonian thread, but there is one for Albanians I think and there were one study that was suggesting that Albanians after Sardinians are the second most indigenous in Europe. I can't post links yet.

Ok!

Its wrong thread to discuss it here.

blevins13
19-10-16, 20:37
I think that the name of Macedonia is more political than historical or geographical issue


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Dinarid
19-10-16, 21:56
I see why we re-open the thread,

Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
as Etruscans and Cypriots,

Did I forgot someone?
I have never heard such claims other than to the legacy of the Illyrians.

Nik
19-10-16, 23:36
I have never heard such claims other than to the legacy of the Illyrians.
He just likes to toy around with stuff he creates himself. Let him be happy and may he never do a ftdna test as he's in for big surprises with his Makedonian ancestry.

VMRO1893
20-10-16, 01:16
Can you post a link where we can see this map and also we can read the article related to it, pls?

That is from an older version of eurominority.eu website. Here is latest map;

http://eurominority.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/map_europe_languages_eng.png

site is being updated

ihype02
28-10-16, 21:32
That is from an older version of eurominority.eu website. Here is latest map;



site is being updated

Interesting.

ihype02
28-10-16, 21:35
I see why we re-open the thread,

Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
as Etruscans and Cypriots,

Did I forgot someone?

Stop making stuff up.

Sile
28-10-16, 22:37
I have never heard such claims other than to the legacy of the Illyrians.

it was from the educational book created by Tito for yugoslav schools for their history ........including kosovo and gheg albanians in montenegro

It says also south slavs are illyrians, macedonians, etc etc as well as the boudaries of slavs is from the rhine, through vienna and istria, all yugoslavia and north albania.

I already send the link of the site here many years ago

tiami
08-12-16, 12:40
Sporoi, Sobori, Bharatians, Boreans, Sclavonians/South Venets(Skolotoi)=Tracians=Illyrians=Macedonians,Da lmatians,Pannonians,Dacians,Brigians,Licians...=So uthSlavs
open any UNEDITED pre 19oo book, there are plenty on internet.
key word:UNEDITED

Diomedes
13-04-17, 21:48
People of today's Skopje cannot be the same people as the ancient Macedonians. They came in these lands 1000 years after Alexander's time. I understand their small country needs to have a raison d'etre in order to survive, although such a thing seems to be difficult, given that they have a very large Albanian minority and unstable politics.

LeBrok
13-04-17, 23:49
People of today's Skopje cannot be the same people as the ancient Macedonians. They came in these lands 1000 years after Alexander's time. I understand their small country needs to have a raison d'etre in order to survive, although such a thing seems to be difficult, given that they have a very large Albanian minority and unstable politics.Genetically speaking todays people of Macedonia belong to Balkans. They are not just Slavs who came from North. I need Greek samples from today's Thessaloniki area to tell you exactly how close they are, Greek Macedonians to Slavic Macedonians.

I need Greeks from around Thessaloniki in gedmatch run (Harappa), anyone?

DuPidh
14-04-17, 01:58
Genetically speaking todays people of Macedonia belong to Balkans. They are not just Slavs who came from North. I need Greek samples from today's Thessaloniki area to tell you exactly how close they are, Greek Macedonians to Slavic Macedonians.

I need Greeks from around Thessaloniki in gedmatch run (Harappa), anyone?

Wrong, wrong, wrong! There was a study from Macedonian Genetic Institute and the conclusion was Albanians of Macedonia who are hard core Balkan and Slav Macedonians were significantly different genetically. Salonika before given to Greece was a Bulgarian territory with Greek minorities. Salonika folks are ethnically Bullgarian

LeBrok
14-04-17, 02:19
Wrong, wrong, wrong! There was a study from Macedonian Genetic Institute and the conclusion was Albanians of Macedonia who are hard core Balkan and Slav Macedonians were significantly different genetically. Salonika before given to Greece was a Bulgarian territory with Greek minorities. Salonika folks are ethnically BullgarianLOL, you are the ultimate Strawman. Nothing what you said (even if it's true) contradicts what I said. Read with comprehension next time.

Diomedes
14-04-17, 12:46
Where can we then find traces of the ancient Macedonians? I cannot believe they got extinguished just like that.

Diomedes
14-04-17, 13:24
No, people of Salonika now are not Bulgarians. Yes, prior to the Balkan Wars, Thessalonica was quite mixed. Yet, after the Balkan Wars and the Greek expedition in Asia Minor, things changed.

You should read history more carefully.


Wrong, wrong, wrong! There was a study from Macedonian Genetic Institute and the conclusion was Albanians of Macedonia who are hard core Balkan and Slav Macedonians were significantly different genetically. Salonika before given to Greece was a Bulgarian territory with Greek minorities. Salonika folks are ethnically Bullgarian

DuPidh
14-04-17, 15:41
No, people of Salonika now are not Bulgarians. Yes, prior to the Balkan Wars, Thessalonica was quite mixed. Yet, after the Balkan Wars and the Greek expedition in Asia Minor, things changed.

You should read history more carefully.

You are a hostage of written history at the time of genetics history. Study the R1a haplogroup of Salonika people and compare it with Bulgarians and then we talk

Yetos
14-04-17, 16:25
You are a hostage of written history at the time of genetics history. Study the R1a haplogroup of Salonika people and compare it with Bulgarians and then we talk

I would answer the same about other HG in your ..... with Cuba flag,
but if Greece has bigger R1a than any other country in balkans
and R1a in Europe is traced back to 2500 BC
and the second R1a is not Bulgaria
then I agree with you
you are a hostage of an agenda
and instead of 'yelling' blinded by your agenda, give proofs at least by your search in genetics,
cause even you ever read history you would see many paradox, that exist in your agenda.

and plz tell the forum your nationality,
and stop hiding behind Cuba flag,

Yetos
14-04-17, 16:32
@ Lebrok

Thessaloniki is a strange case, and I suggest do not ask from there,
you may find strange or unexpected results.

PS
must have 2 killos of Valerianna :laughing:
and 1 kilo of drugs or nerve calming peels or gas :grin:
to open such a case :useless:
anyway a scientist never stop the challenge
so good luck. :wavey:
I suggest to stop drinking coffe if you go ahead :lmao:
in case of 'blackout' I suggest FN2000 better than AK47 :gun:

Long live Balkans :clap:
:drunk: :smash: :banghead:

LeBrok
14-04-17, 17:42
Where can we then find traces of the ancient Macedonians? I cannot believe they got extinguished just like that.Their genetics is mixed into populations of today's Greeks and Macedonian Slavs, but I doubt that pure old Macedonian exist anymore. Same as the pure Slav or pure Germanic, the ones who started the language and culture, don't exist anymore.

LeBrok
14-04-17, 17:45
@ Lebrok

Thessaloniki is a strange case, and I suggest do not ask from there,
you may find strange or unexpected results.

PS
must have 2 killos of Valerianna :laughing:
and 1 kilo of drugs or nerve calming peels or gas :grin:
to open such a case :useless:
anyway a scientist never stop the challenge
so good luck. :wavey:
I suggest to stop drinking coffe if you go ahead :lmao:
in case of 'blackout' I suggest FN2000 better than AK47 :gun:

Long live Balkans :clap:
:drunk: :smash: :banghead:
Hey Yetos, did you do DNA test that you can run through GedMatch? And of course send results it to me? :)

LABERIA
14-04-17, 18:29
Their genetics is mixed into populations of today's Greeks and Macedonian Slavs, but I doubt that pure old Macedonian exist anymore. Same as the pure Slav or pure Germanic, the ones who started the language and culture, don't exist anymore.

Are you sure?

LeBrok
14-04-17, 18:44
Are you sure?The only chance they survived would be in some secluded village up in the mountains. Otherwise after 2000 years of population movements in this area it is physically impossible.
Notice that we are talking about genetics only. Macedonian is mainly about culture, however. Old Macedonian ways are long gone. Religion has changed, language has changed, clothes has changed, traditions has changed, way of life has changed, most of food has changed, etc, etc. What's left of ancient Macedonians is their name and some of their genetics.

spartan owl
29-04-17, 16:04
I see why we re-open the thread,

Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
as Etruscans and Cypriots,

Did I forgot someone?
yes you forgot dorians-(spartans) and pelasgians.
The funny thing is that dorians pelasgians and illyrians coexisted and they spoke different languages and they had hostile relations amongst them.
If the albanians do not claim such a thing i will ask sorry.

spartan owl
29-04-17, 16:26
i have a question for the vardaskans.
one of my great grandfathers (the father of my grandmother by my fathers side) was from monastiri (bitola).
He left during the balkan wars and settled in sparta.(the irony is that the father of my grandfather was a balkan war hero)
He always talked about monastiri and about the hostility between greeks and bulgarians.
where were they the "macedonians" back then? because my great grandfather seems to have missed them.

LABERIA
29-04-17, 17:29
yes you forgot dorians-(spartans) and pelasgians.
The funny thing is that dorians pelasgians and illyrians coexisted and they spoke different languages and they had hostile relations amongst them.
If the albanians do not claim such a thing i will ask sorry.

Before making a statement and later asking sorry, you have to ask the opinion of the Albanians. What do you think?

blevins13
29-04-17, 18:18
I would answer the same about other HG in your ..... with Cuba flag,
but if Greece has bigger R1a than any other country in balkans
and R1a in Europe is traced back to 2500 BC
and the second R1a is not Bulgaria
then I agree with you
you are a hostage of an agenda
and instead of 'yelling' blinded by your agenda, give proofs at least by your search in genetics,
cause even you ever read history you would see many paradox, that exist in your agenda.

and plz tell the forum your nationality,
and stop hiding behind Cuba flag,

DuPidh is Albanian


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LABERIA
29-04-17, 19:08
I see why we re-open the thread,

Albanians want to tell us that they are 'trully' Illyrians
and ancient Makedonians were 'trully' Albanians,
and Pharaoh Ramses was also 'trully' Albanian,
as Etruscans and Cypriots,

Did I forgot someone?
According to Constantine Sathas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_Sathas), probably the most important greek historian of XIX century, in IV century, in Cyprus there was an Albanian colony. They were the ruling elite of the island.

spartan owl
30-04-17, 15:57
Before making a statement and later asking sorry, you have to ask the opinion of the Albanians. What do you think?
ok then tell me what do you think about pelasgians and dorians were they albanians or not?But i have even see an albanian guy with the nickname dorian.
Sorry anyway in advance if you don't belive that.

LABERIA
30-04-17, 18:49
ok then tell me what do you think about pelasgians and dorians were they albanians or not?But i have even see an albanian guy with the nickname dorian.
Sorry anyway in advance if you don't belive that.

Read my posts in the last pages of this thread. Yes it's true, i know Albanians with name Dorian. Exist also the name Doriana for female. What's the problem here?

LATGAL
01-05-17, 06:24
The Albanians first appear as 'natives' in and expand out of Central-Northern Albania in the late middle ages towards all directions (Kosovo, Epirus, southern Greece). We'll just go with the mainstream theory. Their previous Balkan associations, Dacian or Illyrian, will (probably) unfortunately remain ultimately unknowable but one can take their pick by personally weighing the evidence for either theory. Either one is a rational choice.

So fourth century Albanians in Cyprus or seventh century Albanians in the Peloponnese or "Avaro-Slavs" actually denoting Albanians...yeah. No need to keep digging up 19th century theories that didn't pan out much for good reason.

LABERIA
01-05-17, 08:29
The Albanians first appear as 'natives' in and expand out of Central-Northern Albania in the late middle ages towards all directions (Kosovo, Epirus, southern Greece). We'll just go with the mainstream theory. Their previous Balkan associations, Dacian or Illyrian, will (probably) unfortunately remain ultimately unknowable but one can take their pick by personally weighing the evidence for either theory. Either one is a rational choice.

So fourth century Albanians in Cyprus or seventh century Albanians in the Peloponnese or "Avaro-Slavs" actually denoting Albanians...yeah. No need to keep digging up 19th century theories that didn't pan out much for good reason.
There are two problems with your post.
1) It's totally inaccurate. I don't know where you have read this "mainstream theory". Does not exist such an "mainstream" theory, as described by you. If your scholars and their masters have produced such a theory, well, this is pseudo history and as such, can be easily debunked.
2) I want to draw your attention to an important fact. You are off topic. This thread is not about Albanians. There are many threads here about Albanians, or you can open a new one and there we can discuss this topic, always if you have an genuine interest on this topic. And this is an invitation for all the participants in this thread.

LATGAL
01-05-17, 11:39
You brought up Albanians in 4th century AD Cyprus if you recall.

Anyway, read George Hill - A History of Cyprus Vol. 1, pp. 260-261 to clear up this particular confusion you're perpetuating.

LABERIA
01-05-17, 12:47
You brought up Albanians in 4th century AD Cyprus if you recall.

Anyway, read George Hill - A History of Cyprus Vol. 1, pp. 260-261 to clear up this particular confusion you're perpetuating.

No, was Yetos who brought the Albanians in Cyprus. I quoted an important greek scholar who was not just an historian as many others. He was one of those rats of archives. Anyway, i have to admit that the mainstream of the scholars don't support this theory of Sathas, but there are scholars who have been interested about this fact. So, we can't say closed case.
Thank you for your suggestion. I will try to find this book. Interesting that you didn't suggested to me a genetic study. Probably because is hard to discover something, because the today inhabitants of Cyprus are mostly the descendants of the Armenians settled in this island by Roman rulers. Is this fact mentioned by George Hill in his book?

Yetos
01-05-17, 17:56
No, was Yetos who brought the Albanians in Cyprus.

No, I send them to Ukraine, remember ?

Anyway if Reich is correct, then the 'Autochthonos' is crap, at least in linguistic matters.

and maybe should search in other areas like the origin of Normands?

LABERIA
01-05-17, 18:27
No, I send them to Ukraine, remember ?

Anyway if Reich is correct, then the 'Autochthonos' is crap, at least in linguistic matters.

and maybe should search in other areas like the origin of Normands?
Yetos, this thread is not about Albanians. Do you understand this?
BTW, how can be translated in English this two words used by you, emigmatic and ainigmatic? I am very curious.

LATGAL
01-05-17, 23:54
No, was Yetos who brought the Albanians in Cyprus. I quoted an important greek scholar who was not just an historian as many others. He was one of those rats of archives. Anyway, i have to admit that the mainstream of the scholars don't support this theory of Sathas, but there are scholars who have been interested about this fact. So, we can't say closed case.
Thank you for your suggestion. I will try to find this book. Interesting that you didn't suggested to me a genetic study. Probably because is hard to discover something, because the today inhabitants of Cyprus are mostly the descendants of the Armenians settled in this island by Roman rulers. Is this fact mentioned by George Hill in his book?

I think we can fairly say "case closed" on that particular issue. Everyone else seems to have done so.

I didn't suggest a genetic study because it had nothing to do with your claim and because I'm barely more knowledgeable than you are on that topic (but probably a slightly bit more based on your general statements). Your scenario of being "mostly the descendants of the Armenians" is something that genetics seems to debunk unless you're also positing that the early medieval Armenians were Cypriot-like and changed completely into modern Armenian-like after that, just to save something that seems untenable. Pretty sure there was a discussion of a recent paper on Cypriot Y-DNA on this site too (let alone the main pages of this site detailing Y-DNA haplogroups to an extent) that you could easily look into if you actually cared to, beyond positing anything you can think of based on one or another historical reference you came across.

LABERIA
02-05-17, 11:19
I think we can fairly say "case closed" on that particular issue. Everyone else seems to have done so.
Not we, you. It is your historians who from time to time return to these stories.


I didn't suggest a genetic study because it had nothing to do with your claim and because I'm barely more knowledgeable than you are on that topic (but probably a slightly bit more based on your general statements). Your scenario of being "mostly the descendants of the Armenians" is something that genetics seems to debunk unless you're also positing that the early medieval Armenians were Cypriot-like and changed completely into modern Armenian-like after that, just to save something that seems untenable. Pretty sure there was a discussion of a recent paper on Cypriot Y-DNA on this site too (let alone the main pages of this site detailing Y-DNA haplogroups to an extent) that you could easily look into if you actually cared to, beyond positing anything you can think of based on one or another historical reference you came across.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians_in_Cyprus#Byzantine_Era_.28578.E2.80.931 191.29

LATGAL
03-05-17, 00:49
You are the one who keeps bringing these theories up though (and Sathas himself seems to have had a bit of a varying opinion on the matter if you compare what he wrote in his 'Medieval Library' and in his 'Monuments of Greek History'). I referred to a source that provides the mainstream view on this anyway.

The presence of Armenians in Cyprus is well-known, the Armenian community still exists after all. This has nothing to do with your other assertions, look at genetics a bit at least. Unless we also need to accept that the Albanian Mirdites have a specific, strong Levantine component based on the same authors you refer to (which also finds no specific corroboration with genetics).

DuPidh
13-05-17, 02:43
I can't figure it out where does it 12,6% R1a at Albanians comes from? It does not appear to be slavic since at Slavs the ratio I:R1a is aproximately 2:1. In this case for Macedonians is 27.50:14.20. For Albanians in Macedonia the ratio is 1.80: 12.60. Also Albs appear to have about 10% northern linage

Aspar
11-01-18, 17:31
Regulus
Haplogroups of todays Macedonians are similar Serbian.

Ok in Serbia is more strongly expressed I (nearly 48%) while in Macedonia E (over 24%) is a stronger than in Serbia but this is probably because of the large Albanian minority, which accounts for 25% of the population in that country.

Nearly many Serbs once spoke the language very similar to today's standard Macedonian, and many Macedonians spoke language very similar todays Serbian, just standardization two languages has made to similar forms slowly forget.

If someone really studied non-political background is likely to determine the current population of the country whose official name of FYROM is actually originating from Serbs, not Bulgarian, but in my opinion, people can identify themselves as they wish, only Bulgarians have no right to be claim to.

Personally I regret that there is a conflict with Greece, and I think it's partly political, and that the Macedonian leadership to be more flexible, but it is my individual opinion, I like Skoplje and other places and often I was there.

There is nothing Serbian in today's Macedonians and stop spreading your Serbian propaganda around...
I am a Macedonian with e-v13 y-dna haplogroup and my matches are mostly English, Bulgarian, Italian...
It's suggested that id descend from the native people who lived here before the arrival of the Slavs.

Also my autosomal dna ged match eurogenes k13 and k15 result suggests similarity with Greek Thessaly and Bulgaria.

Here is the haplogroup diversity in modern Macedonans:

I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E1b1b T Q N
3 23 1.5 13.5 12.5 4 14 2 21.5 1.5 0.5 0.5

As we can see, it's much different distribution than in the Serbs where J2 and R1b are poor, and I2a is much more than in Macedonians.

Once again stop spreading lies about the Macedonians, we have nothing to do with you.

Dibran
11-01-18, 21:15
I can't figure it out where does it 12,6% R1a at Albanians comes from? It does not appear to be slavic since at Slavs the ratio I:R1a is aproximately 2:1. In this case for Macedonians is 27.50:14.20. For Albanians in Macedonia the ratio is 1.80: 12.60. Also Albs appear to have about 10% northern linage

I think I2a-Din was the dominant medieval Slavic lineage, however, R1a also participated back to back. Kind of like E-V13 and J2b for modern Albanians. From what I have read, Gimbutas suspects M458 originated with the Baltic peoples, and was later consumed by Slavic and Germanic tribes.

When it comes to R1a, the most dominant in South Slavs seems to be Z280. M458 has decent proportions in Dalmatia. M458 is believed to correlate to the early Slavic tribes during the great migration and maybe earlier, that was mostly assimilated into Byzantium(in the case of Greece and Albania). M458 is highest in Bulgarians as far as southern Balkans is concerned. If the Avaro-Slavs are responsible for it, then it would have to be either the Baiounitai(settled in central and southern Albania, including northern Greece). Or the Dragouvitai, which settled in Macedonia and North-East Greece. Both were defeated and assimilated by the Byzantines, whilst other slavic tribes became the modern south slavs.

I recently tested FullGenomes as was confirmed M458-L1029*. The asterisk denotes basal L1029, negative downstream. My TMRCA with closest FGC matches was 2350ypb(2 Germans). My closest match is still an Albanian with 1000ypb TMRCA, from Gostivar. We are suspected to form an "Albanian" cluster within L1029.

Personally, from what I have read of historical tribal movements(regardless of Balto-Slavic origins originally) is that East Germanic tribes like Ostrogoths, and Bastarnae, spread throughout east europe of to the Balts. They could have absorbed and brought L1029 much earlier. You also have M458* popping up in Balkars and Nogai in North Kavkaz. It could have come with Avars and Volga Bulgars too. Another possibility is the Varangian Guard, which were "Vikings" hired from the Viking settlment in Kievan Rus. They were eventually conscripted from Russia to the Baltics to Scandinavia. L1029 pops up in England too, which could easily be from Pomeranian Vikings.

My branch is kind of on its lonesome, I have 25 unique SNPs discovered, and one SNP(though very unstable) is suspected to form a novel clade upstream of YP263 which seems more commonly found in Scandinavians, Germans, English(per yfull). Per R1a project admin, YP263 is over represented on Yfull, and that supposedly more samples come from East Europe. YP263(which I am negative for) is considered to be predominantly East Balkan.

Personally I think the science is too early to make any conclusions. Dacians which were still active in the early middle ages, spread up to the Balts. Thracian and Dacian shares some elements with Proto-Baltic as well. I can't see how M458-L1029 was "walled up" like some ******* white walkers in Game of Thrones, and only decided to pop up out of nowhere in the middle ages with Slavs. Seems a tunnel vision view of this line.

Im sure within the coming years as the branches grow, and ADNA starts popping up we will know more. If a study of Arberesh is anything to go by, Modern Albanian Y-DNA distribution changed significantly in the short 500 years. Imagine 2000 years how much these lines changed. Per Arberesh, they had practically no J2b, V13 is still highest, but nothing by comparison to modern distributions. R1b-M269 and I2 and R1a are significantly higher in Arberesh than modern Albanians.

I think alot of what people go off of is fragmented factual science mixed with a shit ton of speculation.

Heres me on yfull btw: My ancestors are from Okshtun i Vogel, very isolated part of Diber Vogel in Albania.

https://s10.postimg.org/kzr1lr56x/L1029.png

Trojet
11-01-18, 22:00
If a study of Arberesh is anything to go by, Modern Albanian Y-DNA distribution changed significantly in the short 500 years. Imagine 2000 years how much these lines changed. Per Arberesh, they had practically no J2b, V13 is still highest, but nothing by comparison to modern distributions. R1b-M269 and I2 and R1a are significantly higher in Arberesh than modern Albanians.

Not sure why you would think that modern Arbëresh Y-DNA frequency represents how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago.
First of all, Arbëresh are predominantly of southern (Tosk) origin. So, by no means do they represent all areas inhabited by Albanians. Secondly, their high levels of typical south Italian HGs, like E1b non V13 which is close to inexistent among Albanians, suggests they have mixed with Italians or experienced a "genetic drift". Therefore, they should not be taken as representative of how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago.

Dibran
11-01-18, 22:25
What makes you think that modern Arbëresh Y-DNA frequency represents how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago, lol. First of all, Arbëresh are predominantly of southern (Tosk) origin. So, by no means do they represent all areas inhabited by Albanians. Secondly, their high levels of typical south Italian HGs, like E1b non V13 which is close to inexistent among Albanians, suggests they have mixed with Italians or experienced a "genetic drift". Therefore, they should not be taken as "evidence" how Albanian Y-DNA frequency would've looked like 500 years ago.

Never said it was a definite. Merely that these Y-DNA frequencies fluctuate over time. Because this is the case, no concrete claims should be made based upon modern distributions. Not excluding the fact that people deal absolutes over trace samples of ADNA. Also, Southern Albanians are still closer to Northern Albanians with Y-DNA frequencies. At least from Tosk results I have seen so far(on the project).

Theres too much certainty about all these haplogroups when ADNA is rather dry in most instances. Alot of conclusions are drawn based on modern samples(which number only over a few thousand in wealthier countries or far less than a thousand in most impoverished countries) and borders. We may have an idea of who carried what when and where, but most of it is too early to tell.

I am sure when NGS is really cheap that we will learn a ton of information. I also read somewhere that there are new methods of extraction that will make extracting DNA from more ancient samples a possibility and less problematic. I need to find the article. It was posted by one of the admins here or on anthro last summer.

Trojet
11-01-18, 22:54
Never said it was a definite. Merely that these Y-DNA frequencies fluctuate over time. Because this is the case, no concrete claims should be made based upon modern distributions. Not excluding the fact that people deal absolutes over trace samples of ADNA. Also, Southern Albanians are still closer to Northern Albanians with Y-DNA frequencies. At least from Tosk results I have seen so far(on the project).
Theres too much certainty about all these haplogroups when ADNA is rather dry in most instances. Alot of conclusions are drawn based on modern samples(which number only over a few thousand in wealthier countries or far less than a thousand in most impoverished countries) and borders. We may have an idea of who carried what when and where, but most of it is too early to tell

Sure, modern Y-DNA frequency is as a result of bottlenecks, founder effects, etc, and should not be taken as evidence of what the distribution would've looked like 2000 years ago.

However, their origins/migrations, is a different story, which we can make good hypothesis in light of available data and ancient DNA evidence.

Dibran
11-01-18, 22:58
Sure, modern Y-DNA frequency is as a result of bottlenecks, founder effects, etc, and should not be taken as evidence of what the distribution would've looked like 2000 years ago.

However, their origins/migrations, is a different story, which we can make good hypothesis in light of available data and ancient DNA evidence.

Absolutely, I agree. The sad fact is majority of people take it like its set in stone. Btw, any luck with my match? I take it he said no? Hope not :(

Trojet
11-01-18, 23:27
Absolutely, I agree. The sad fact is majority of people take it like its set in stone. Btw, any luck with my match? I take it he said no? Hope not :(

No response yet. I'll try again in the next couple of days, but not looking good.

Dibran
12-01-18, 03:52
No response yet. I'll try again in the next couple of days, but not looking good.

Thanks, man. It's a shame. Maybe he rarely checks his email lol.

Balkan1992
10-05-18, 09:37
The current Macedonian DNA (FYROM) is predominantly Balkan (Southern Slavic) but also with Greek influences plus small influences from other populations (Turks, Gypsies)

Aspar
11-05-18, 15:42
The current Macedonian DNA (FYROM) is predominantly Balkan (Southern Slavic) but also with Greek influences plus small influences from other populations (Turks, Gypsies)

Not much different than the Romanian I reckon, only that the Gypsy DNA is more present in Romanians rather than Macedonians...

Balkan1992
11-05-18, 19:09
Not much different than the Romanian I reckon, only that the Gypsy DNA is more present in Romanians rather than Macedonians...
It is true that there are more Gypsies in Romania. It sounds a little ironic, but Gypsies are a reality in both Macedonia and Romania, Serbia, Hungary, etc. I personally are not an authentic romanian, part of my origins are in Greece (Macedonia).

Aspar
12-05-18, 11:18
It is true that there are more Gypsies in Romania. It sounds a little ironic, but Gypsies are a reality in both Macedonia and Romania, Serbia, Hungary, etc. I personally are not an authentic romanian, part of my origins are in Greece (Macedonia).

Interesting, I believe that your ancestors from Macedonia were either Aromanians or Meglen Vlachs.
Am I right?

Balkan1992
12-05-18, 12:49
Interesting, I believe that your ancestors from Macedonia were either Aromanians or Meglen Vlachs.
Am I right?
Yes , is true.

BestMoorsO
28-09-18, 01:00
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Aspar
28-01-19, 03:22
I've decided to count my Balkan matches at MyHeritage DNA and to compare their number with the respective size of the population in question so I can calculate a percentage!
Until now I have 812 dna matches and they keep rising day by day, which is why I appreciate MyHeritage DNA, since they have a large data base!
By Balkan matches I mean: Macedonians, Albanians, Serbs, Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Greeks, Croats and Romanians!
It's an easy job for a Balkaner to differentiate between people of the nations above because of the specific names and surnames the people from the Balkans have.
The only difficulty I had was that I can't differentiate much between Serbs and Croats so I decided to lump them together with the Muslim Bosniaks under the name "Yugoslavs", mainly because many of them didn't put place of origin or they had places of origin all over the former Yugoslavia so I couldn't really know what they really are!

This are my results:

I match strongest with ... Macedonians. Well, not really surprising since I am Macedonian myself from the south-east of the country.
I have 17 Macedonian matches with MyHeritage DNA, and compared to the size of the Macedonian population, I've got 0.850%!

Second strongest match for me, surprisingly, are the Albanians. I have 60 Albanian matches which is fascinating number although when compared to their population size, that amounts to 0.600%, which is the second best and behind the Macedonians.

The third strongest match are the Greeks. I have 67 Greek matches, which is the most of all Balkan countries, however when compared to the population size of the Greeks, that amounts to 0.432%, which is the third best result!

The fourth strongest match are the Yugoslavs(Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks). I have 51 Yugoslav match and when compared to the population size, I get 0.242. Around 5 - 10 of those were with Mulsim names, so probably Bosniaks. I guess the Croats as well are around 5 - 10, and the rest should have Serbian origin I guess!

The most surprising for me was that I have only 12 Bulgarian matches, which amounts to 0.126%! According to some logic that Macedonians and Bulgarians are considered as very close people, mainly because they speak very similar languages, I thought that the Bulgarians will come as a strong match, but that wasn't the case.

And at the last place are the Romanians with who I have 26 matches and which amounts to 0.096%!

So, my strongest matches are in this order: Macedonians, Albanians, Greeks, Yugoslavs, Bulgarians and Romanians!
One thing I've noticed about the Albanians is that although I match strongly with them, that admixture probably happened long time ago, medievals maybe, since the longest matching segment I have with an Albanian is only 10.3 cM, with an Albanian from Macedonia!
While with some Macedonians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks and even Romanians I match on segments long between 20 - 30 cM!
It's also worth mentioning that I match that Albanian on two segments and the one in question(10.3 cM, Chr1), I call it the Albanian segment, because I match many other Albanians on that segment and not only from Macedonia but Albania and Kosovo as well!

My MyHeritage DNA commercial result:

South Europe - 51.2%
-Greek - 30.1%
-Italian - 21.1%

East Europe - 48.8%
-Balkan - 48.8%

Mals
28-01-19, 05:07
I've decided to count my Balkan matches at MyHeritage DNA and to compare their number with the respective size of the population in question so I can calculate a percentage!
Until now I have 812 dna matches and they keep rising day by day, which is why I appreciate MyHeritage DNA, since they have a large data base!
By Balkan matches I mean: Macedonians, Albanians, Serbs, Bosniaks, Bulgarians, Greeks, Croats and Romanians!
It's an easy job for a Balkaner to differentiate between people of the nations above because of the specific names and surnames the people from the Balkans have.
The only difficulty I had was that I can't differentiate much between Serbs and Croats so I decided to lump them together with the Muslim Bosniaks under the name "Yugoslavs", mainly because many of them didn't put place of origin or they had places of origin all over the former Yugoslavia so I couldn't really know what they really are!

This are my results:

I match strongest with ... Macedonians. Well, not really surprising since I am Macedonian myself from the south-east of the country.
I have 17 Macedonian matches with MyHeritage DNA, and compared to the size of the Macedonian population, I've got 0.850%!

Second strongest match for me, surprisingly, are the Albanians. I have 60 Albanian matches which is fascinating number although when compared to their population size, that amounts to 0.600%, which is the second best and behind the Macedonians.

The third strongest match are the Greeks. I have 67 Greek matches, which is the most of all Balkan countries, however when compared to the population size of the Greeks, that amounts to 0.432%, which is the third best result!

The fourth strongest match are the Yugoslavs(Serbs, Croats, Bosniaks). I have 51 Yugoslav match and when compared to the population size, I get 0.242. Around 5 - 10 of those were with Mulsim names, so probably Bosniaks. I guess the Croats as well are around 5 - 10, and the rest should have Serbian origin I guess!

The most surprising for me was that I have only 12 Bulgarian matches, which amounts to 0.126%! According to some logic that Macedonians and Bulgarians are considered as very close people, mainly because they speak very similar languages, I thought that the Bulgarians will come as a strong match, but that wasn't the case.

And at the last place are the Romanians with who I have 26 matches and which amounts to 0.096%!

So, my strongest matches are in this order: Macedonians, Albanians, Greeks, Yugoslavs, Bulgarians and Romanians!
One thing I've noticed about the Albanians is that although I match strongly with them, that admixture probably happened long time ago, medievals maybe, since the longest matching segment I have with an Albanian is only 10.3 cM, with an Albanian from Macedonia!
While with some Macedonians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Greeks and even Romanians I match on segments long between 20 - 30 cM!
It's also worth mentioning that I match that Albanian on two segments and the one in question(10.3 cM, Chr1), I call it the Albanian segment, because I match many other Albanians on that segment and not only from Macedonia but Albania and Kosovo as well!

My MyHeritage DNA commercial result:

South Europe - 51.2%
-Greek - 30.1%
-Italian - 21.1%

East Europe - 48.8%
-Balkan - 48.8%

What are you considering "population" here? The numbers seem quite off if you are referring to total population of each nation.

Aspar
28-01-19, 11:28
What are you considering "population" here? The numbers seem quite off if you are referring to total population of each nation.
By population size I mean the overall number of a population in question in the world!
I got the numbers from Wikipedia which cites the official numbers of the populations in question from several sources!
For example, there are around 2 milion ethnic Macedonians in the world, not just the country.
So, for calcupating percentage, 17 : 2000 * 100 = 0.850
Notice that I converted 2000000 to 2000 for a better resolution.

Than there are around 10 milion Albanians in this world.
So we got, 60 : 10000 * 100 = 0.600
And so on.

jmedlin81
02-02-19, 21:40
Because we apparently have a remnant of ancient Macedonians that have remained relatively isolated (in the Kalash), and because these people recently tested as relatives of modern Austrians and Germans, am I wrong in seeing this as a serious and somewhat definitive hint of their background?

Aspar
03-02-19, 09:42
Because we apparently have a remnant of ancient Macedonians that have remained relatively isolated (in the Kalash), and because these people recently tested as relatives of modern Austrians and Germans, am I wrong in seeing this as a serious and somewhat definitive hint of their background?

This thread is about the ethnic Macedonians not about the ancient ones.
But now since you've mentioned it, can we have a look of the DNA of these 'isolated' Kalash and compare it?
I mean, can you back up what you are saying with a proof(dna study, ancient Macedonian sample etc.)?
Otherwise, I will consider your contribution as nothing but a pure science fiction derived from the infamous Apricity circle!

Yetos
03-02-19, 12:27
This thread is about the ethnic Macedonians not about the ancient ones.
But now since you've mentioned it, can we have a look of the DNA of these 'isolated' Kalash and compare it?
I mean, can you back up what you are saying with a proof(dna study, ancient Macedonian sample etc.)?
Otherwise, I will consider your contribution as nothing but a pure science fiction derived from the infamous Apricity circle!

which ethnic?

the begore the Soros treaty?
or the ones after?

Eumania
14-02-19, 01:27
There is nothing Serbian in today's Macedonians and stop spreading your Serbian propaganda around...
I am a Macedonian with e-v13 y-dna haplogroup and my matches are mostly English, Bulgarian, Italian...
It's suggested that id descend from the native people who lived here before the arrival of the Slavs.

Also my autosomal dna ged match eurogenes k13 and k15 result suggests similarity with Greek Thessaly and Bulgaria.

Here is the haplogroup diversity in modern Macedonans:

I1 I2*/I2a I2b R1a R1b G J2 J*/J1 E1b1b T Q N
3 23 1.5 13.5 12.5 4 14 2 21.5 1.5 0.5 0.5

As we can see, it's much different distribution than in the Serbs where J2 and R1b are poor, and I2a is much more than in Macedonians.

Once again stop spreading lies about the Macedonians, we have nothing to do with you. Thanks for the post. I see a ruined person from Macedonia here. I was very tired of reading Serbian fantasies.

Venko2257
15-02-19, 21:57
In Bulgaria, we say that when a lie is repeated a hundred times, it becomes the truth. I am very surprised that the proud citizens of the Democratic People's Republic of Macedonia (that's the new name, right?) have not invented a new Origin Story for themselves.
In the end, though, it's not going to matter much: they will awaken one morning and find that their haplogroups have suddenly become Albanian... and they are going to deserve it :(

bigsnake49
11-04-19, 17:34
Why is it that both the Albanians and the current "north Macedonians" want to claim reflected glory? It's like me even though I am a Greek claiming the glory of the ancient Athenians. My folks came from Eastern Thrace they were farmers from time immemorial. Our only accomplishments were that we survived all those invaders that invaded our land. The "Northern Macedonians" and Albanians were shepherds and subsistence farmers. What can they lay claim too? Nothing! At least the Albanians/Arvanites can claim that if it wasn't for them our War of Independence might not have even started. At least they can claim that they are fierce warriors and were hired by the Genovese and the Catalans and the other great pirates of the Mediterranean to guard their castles and farm the areas around the castles in Greece. They kept the peace before the Ottomans arrived. At least they can claim that they helped build the Selimiye Mosque of Edirne (Adrianople). What have the "Northern Macedonians" done?

Tutkun Arnaut
11-04-19, 18:43
Why is it that both the Albanians and the current "north Macedonians" want to claim reflected glory? It's like me even though I am a Greek claiming the glory of the ancient Athenians. My folks came from Eastern Thrace they were farmers from time immemorial. Our only accomplishments were that we survived all those invaders that invaded our land. The "Northern Macedonians" and Albanians were shepherds and subsistence farmers. What can they lay claim too? Nothing! At least the Albanians/Arvanites can claim that if it wasn't for them our War of Independence might not have even started. At least they can claim that they are fierce warriors and were hired by the Genovese and the Catalans and the other great pirates of the Mediterranean to guard their castles and farm the areas around the castles in Greece. They kept the peace before the Ottomans arrived. At least they can claim that they helped build the Selimiye Mosque of Edirne (Adrianople). What have the "Northern Macedonians" done?

its not the way to judge people! If Greeks did what they have done its not they did it because they were smarter than others. They did it because geographical conditions dictated them to build ships and explore the seas. Greeks were living in islands and needed to connect. Greece is almost an archipelago. On the other hand Albanians, N Macedonia's were mostly continental and mountaineers so remained isolated and exchanged little ideas with outside world. You can see from the DNA tests Albanians have a combination of Greek+Ballkan Dna, which shows isolation.
When Greeks, Albanians, N Macedonians are in equal footing, like when they study in USA schools they are equally capable of doing things. Exception so far are only the Jewish who excel in larger numbers.

markod
11-04-19, 19:05
its not the way to judge people! If Greeks did what they have done its not they did it because they were smarter than others. They did it because geographical conditions dictated them to build ships and explore the seas. Greeks were living in islands and needed to connect. Greece is almost an archipelago. On the other hand Albanians, N Macedonia's were mostly continental and mountaineers so remained isolated and exchanged little ideas with outside world. You can see from the DNA tests Albanians have a combination of Greek+Ballkan Dna, which shows isolation.
When Greeks, Albanians, N Macedonians are in equal footing, like when they study in USA schools they are equally capable of doing things. Exception so far are only the Jewish who excel in larger numbers.

There were many places with similar conditions as ancient Greece, but few (IMO none) of them developed as distinctive a civilization.

Pericles
22-04-19, 09:21
Most of the so-called history posted in this thread from the beginning is false. The actual ancient Macedonians mixed with the other Greeks during Hellenistic times. So no "Macedonians" separate from Greeks existed after that. That is indisputable so all the rest is false.

Tutkun Arnaut
22-04-19, 10:56
There were many places with similar conditions as ancient Greece, but few (IMO none) of them developed as distinctive a civilization.
up to 400 a.d they spoke their language together with Greek. Their language was related to Illyrian and Thracian. There are documents for that. Probably Slavic invasions stopped them from using their language. Even Greek Macedonians today are genetically majority slav

Yetos
22-04-19, 11:00
up to 400 a.d they spoke their language together with Greek. Their language was related to Illyrian and Thracian. There are documents for that. Probably Slavic invasions stopped them from using their language. Even Greek Macedonians today are genetically majority slav

what documents and what proves?
all evidences are clear and to one direction.

the rest are in the mind of ..... people

Tutkun Arnaut
22-04-19, 12:11
(Nicholas Hammond, British scholar and expert on Macedon, "A History of Macedonia" Vol. ii, 550-336 BC)“

Tutkun Arnaut
22-04-19, 12:18
what documents and what proves?
all evidences are clear and to one direction.

the rest are in the mind of ..... people
There are so many in English language. (Nicholas Hammond, British scholar and expert on Macedon, "A History of Macedonia" Vol. ii, 550-336 BC)“ . The best one I have read was by a History professor at Columbia University, with a Greek last name. I have forgotten his name.

bigsnake49
22-04-19, 21:22
From Wikipedia:

Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-10)[page needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)] Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-Mallory1-11)


A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locris), Aetolian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolian), Phocidian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)), Epirote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus)) variants of Doric Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek), suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Hammond_(historian)) (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Meier-Br%C3%BCgger) (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-OxfordCD1-12)[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-Hammond1-13)[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-14)[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-15)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-16)
A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic_Greek) and Thessalian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessalian), suggested among others by A.Fick (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Fick) (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-OxfordCD1-12)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-AhrensHoffmann-17)
An aberrant form of Greek, with borrowings from Illyrian and Thracian.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-18)
A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratal) influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-19)
A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_languages)")[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-20) suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-georgiev-8) and Hamp & Adams (2013).[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-21)
An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) and also related to Thracian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language) and Phrygian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language) languages, suggested by A. Meillet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Meillet) (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-22) or part of a Sprachbund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprachbund) encompassing Thracian, Illyrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages) and Greek (Kretschmer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kretschmer) 1896, E. Schwyzer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Schwyzer) 1959).

LABERIA
22-04-19, 21:55
From Wikipedia:

Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-10)[page needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)] Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-Mallory1-11)


A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locris), Aetolian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolian), Phocidian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)), Epirote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus)) variants of Doric Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek), suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Hammond_(historian)) (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Meier-Br%C3%BCgger) (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-OxfordCD1-12)[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-Hammond1-13)[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-14)[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-15)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-16)
A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic_Greek) and Thessalian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessalian), suggested among others by A.Fick (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Fick) (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-OxfordCD1-12)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-AhrensHoffmann-17)
An aberrant form of Greek, with borrowings from Illyrian and Thracian.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-18)
A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratal) influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-19)
A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_languages)")[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-20) suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-georgiev-8) and Hamp & Adams (2013).[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-21)
An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) and also related to Thracian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language) and Phrygian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language) languages, suggested by A. Meillet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Meillet) (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language#cite_note-22) or part of a Sprachbund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprachbund) encompassing Thracian, Illyrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages) and Greek (Kretschmer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kretschmer) 1896, E. Schwyzer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Schwyzer) 1959).



Wikipedia is not the best source if you are interested about this topics. This page has been edited many times. If you search on the history of this page you will find this version before being edited:

Ancient Macedonian language (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106)
Ancient Macedonian language: Difference between revisions From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Revision as of 01:18, 25 November 2018 (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&oldid=870470106) (edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&action=edit&oldid=870470106))





Classification Due to the fragmentary attestation of this language or dialect, various interpretations are possible.[10] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-10)[page needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citing_sources)] Suggested phylogenetic classifications of Macedonian include:[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-Mallory1-11)


A Greek dialect, part of the North-Western (Locrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locris), Aetolian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolian), Phocidian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phocis_(ancient_region)), Epirote (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus)) variants of Doric Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_Greek), suggested amongst others by N.G.L. Hammond (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicholas_Hammond_(historian)) (1989) Olivier Masson (1996), Michael Meier-Brügger (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Meier-Br%C3%BCgger) (2003), Johannes Engels (2010), and Hatzopoulos (2011).[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-OxfordCD1-12)[13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-Hammond1-13)[14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-14)[15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-15)[16] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-16)
A northern Greek dialect, related to Aeolic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolic_Greek) and Thessalian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessalian), suggested among others by A.Fick (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/August_Fick) (1874) and O.Hoffmann (1906).[12] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-OxfordCD1-12)[17] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-AhrensHoffmann-17)
An aberrant form of Greek, with borrowings from Illyrian and Thracian.[18] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-18)
A Greek dialect with a non-Indo-European substratal (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substratal) influence, suggested by M. Sakellariou (1983) and Hatzopoulos (2011).[19] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-19)
A sibling language of Greek within Indo-European, according to a scheme in which Macedonian and Greek are the two branches of a Greco-Macedonian subgroup (sometimes called "Hellenic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenic_languages)")[20] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-20) suggested by Joseph (2001), Georgiev (1966),[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-georgiev-8) and Hamp & Adams (2013).[21] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-21)
An Indo-European language that is a close cousin to Attic Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) and also related to Thracian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language) and Phrygian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phrygian_language) languages, suggested by A. Meillet (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antoine_Meillet) (1913) and I. I. Russu (1938),[22] (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Ancient_Macedonian_language&diff=872948055&oldid=870470106#cite_note-22) or part of a Sprachbund (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sprachbund) encompassing Thracian, Illyrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_languages) and Greek (Kretschmer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Kretschmer) 1896, E. Schwyzer (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eduard_Schwyzer) 1959).
An Illyrian dialect mixed with Greek, suggested by K. O. Müller (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otfried_M%C3%BCller) (1825) and by G. Bonfante (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giuliano_Bonfante) (1987).[citation needed (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]

Yetos
23-04-19, 00:05
ok

since we have 2019, and archaiology has found many many things.
Linguists have much much more digits/staff/systatics to reject and or to propose and synthsize,

the Makedonian language
is the bellow,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Pellatab.jpg

and is also in Hesychius of Alexandreia Lexicon,

Besides if it connected with Illyrian then Dalmatia is a Makedonian word and not Albanian,

So guys, what ever you post and you write, nobody is to take serious,

@ Bigsnake
the mad one, show the drunken one and got feared,

Piro Ilir
26-04-19, 17:04
There were many places with similar conditions as ancient Greece, but few (IMO none) of them developed as distinctive a civilization.

Indeed, there's not. Point one if you can. There's not such a right place as Mediterranean basin, and especially Greece for cultural development

Piro Ilir
26-04-19, 17:07
Most of the so-called history posted in this thread from the beginning is false. The actual ancient Macedonians mixed with the other Greeks during Hellenistic times. So no "Macedonians" separate from Greeks existed after that. That is indisputable so all the rest is false.

Ancient Macedonians were Hellenised Illyrians. Almost the same was for Mollosians, Thesprotians, Chaonians etc etc.

Piro Ilir
26-04-19, 17:15
up to 400 a.d they spoke their language together with Greek. Their language was related to Illyrian and Thracian. There are documents for that. Probably Slavic invasions stopped them from using their language. Even Greek Macedonians today are genetically majority slav

The truth about ancient Macedons it's on the founding myth of their Royal house.

The founders of their Royal dynasty were expatriated from their homeland in Argos, and went leaving among Illyrians, where they founded their kingdom. This is what was claimed by them , when they were finally allowed to participate at the Olympic games.

Piro Ilir
26-04-19, 17:25
ok

since we have 2019, and archaiology has found many many things.
Linguists have much much more digits/staff/systatics to reject and or to propose and synthsize,

the Makedonian language
is the bellow,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Pellatab.jpg

and is also in Hesychius of Alexandreia Lexicon,

Besides if it connected with Illyrian then Dalmatia is a Makedonian word and not Albanian,

So guys, what ever you post and you write, nobody is to take serious,

@ Bigsnake
the mad one, show the drunken one and got feared,

Ancient Macedons are the same as the modern minority populace of Vlachs and Arvanites. For obvious reasons , they both claim an ethnic Greek affiliation, while they speak a native Albanian and Aromanian language.

markod
26-04-19, 17:58
The truth about ancient Macedons it's on the founding myth of their Royal house.
The founders of their Royal dynasty were expatriated from their homeland in Argos, and went leaving among Illyrians, where they founded their kingdom. This is what was claimed by them , when they were finally allowed to participate at the Olympic games.

So you believe one of their claims but not the other? If they were from Argos they were obviously Greeks.

Johane Derite
26-04-19, 18:08
So you believe one of their claims but not the other? If they were from Argos they were obviously Greeks.

They were most likely from Argos in Orestea, not peleponnese

Strabo: "And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia. But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, 327 at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar (That is, to those of the Macedonians), although, they add, some speak both languages. (Geography, Book VII, 8, p. 309)"

https://i.imgur.com/iIMsmPe.jpg