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markod
26-04-19, 19:13
They were most likely from Argos in Orestea, not peleponnese

Strabo: "And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia. But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, 327 at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar (That is, to those of the Macedonians), although, they add, some speak both languages. (Geography, Book VII, 8, p. 309)"

https://i.imgur.com/iIMsmPe.jpg

Your revisionism is getting boring. In the other thread you claimed samples from Kotor weren't genuine Illyrians, now everyone's Illyrian again.

Johane Derite
26-04-19, 19:38
Your revisionism is getting boring. In the other thread you claimed samples from Kotor weren't genuine Illyrians, now everyone's Illyrian again.

I said you couldn't create some false transylvanian migration (caucasian ottoman immgrants theory 2.0) theory based on coastal illyrian samples.

Strabo explicitly stated the Iapodes, i.e. the coastal illyrians of Dalmatia/Pannonia (where the DNA samples are from) were a mix of Celt and Illyrian. And since we lack southern illyrian, inland illyrian, ancient macedonian samples, it's just plain false to extrapolate what you were, and shows an agenda to be honest.

As for the source above, its solid, and not from somebody with any connections to Albanians. Its the truth plain and simple, and the most likely variant.


Since you are a serbian diaspora wearing a german flag, I don't understand why you are so invested in the history of Albanians.

markod
26-04-19, 19:46
I said you couldn't create some false transylvanian migration (caucasian ottoman immgrants theory 2.0) theory based on coastal illyrian samples.
Strabo explicitly stated the Iapodes, i.e. the coastal illyrians of Dalmatia/Pannonia (where the DNA samples are from) were a mix of Celt and Illyrian. And since we lack southern illyrian, inland illyrian, ancient macedonian samples, it's just plain false to extrapolate what you were, and shows an agenda to be honest.
As for the source above, its solid, and not from somebody with any connections to Albanians. Its the truth plain and simple, and the most likely variant.
Since you are a serbian diaspora wearing a german flag, I don't understand why you are so invested in the history of Albanians.
You're paranoid and the 'source' is worthless. We have samples from three disparate corners of the Illyrian zone now, those are sufficient to make general predictions.

I'm not interested in Albanian history - I'm interested in Illyrian, Macedonian and especially Greek history which Albanians have nothing whatsoever to do with.

Johane Derite
26-04-19, 19:58
We have samples from three disparate corners of the Illyrian zone now, those are sufficient to make general predictions.

I'm not interested in Albanian history - I'm interested in Illyrian, Macedonian and especially Greek history which Albanians have nothing whatsoever to do with.

Well thats false. Since Albanian Y-dna has shown continuity in the west balkans for the most part you're now trying to minimize the connection by inferring autosomal shift out of nothing more than an agenda, i.e. damage control.

That you are required to posit two simultaneous migrations, one transylvanian, and one by sea into italy, shows how ad hoc and motivated by an agenda it is, since its just not likely.

I repeat, we lack any samples from illyria proper, inland and coastal, dardania, moesia, macedonia, epirus, etc. Illyrian tribes were in epirus, and according to strabo all the way into macedonia.

markod
26-04-19, 20:05
Well thats false. Since Albanian Y-dna has shown continuity in the west balkans for the most part you're now trying to minimize the connection by inferring autosomal shift out of nothing more than an agenda, i.e. damage control.

That you are required to posit two simultaneous migrations, one transylvanian, and one by sea into italy, shows how ad hoc and motivated by an agenda it is, since its just not likely.

I repeat, we lack any samples from illyria proper, inland and coastal, dardania, moesia, macedonia, epirus, etc. Illyrian tribes were in epirus, and according to strabo all the way into macedonia.

So you think Greek Macedonia was Illyrian while Montenegro wasn't? Laughable.

Johane Derite
26-04-19, 20:12
Thats a straw man. I think the north west coastal samples cannot be used to extrapolate what inland and south illyrians were like autosomally, since its a zone where Strabo explicitly stated they were "mix of celt and illyrian". Also coasts are more prone to italic autosomal influence.

The suffix -as in names of the old argaed dynasty are Illyrian, not grek. (Tyrimmas).

zanipolo
26-04-19, 20:21
So you think Greek Macedonia was Illyrian while Montenegro wasn't? Laughable.
Civitates = census in Roman script
https://www.academia.edu/7540044/The_formation_of_early_imperial_peregrine_civitate s_in_Dalmatia_Re_constructing_indigenous_communiti es_after_the_conquest
https://i.postimg.cc/Nj15bRM6/number-illyrians.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
.
57% of Illyrians are of Dalmatian tribes
19% of Illyrians are of Pannonian tribes
14% of illyrians tribes are from northern tribes....liburnian, Iapodes, Histrian, Nori etc
10% of illyrians are from southern tribes, Epirotes etc
.
https://www.mdpi.com/2076-0787/8/1/1/htm

Yetos
26-04-19, 22:27
The truth about ancient Macedons it's on the founding myth of their Royal house.

The founders of their Royal dynasty were expatriated from their homeland in Argos, and went leaving among Illyrians, where they founded their kingdom. This is what was claimed by them , when they were finally allowed to participate at the Olympic games.

Simply Ignorance

Yetos
26-04-19, 22:38
Thats a straw man. I think the north west coastal samples cannot be used to extrapolate what inland and south illyrians were like autosomally, since its a zone where Strabo explicitly stated they were "mix of celt and illyrian". Also coasts are more prone to italic autosomal influence.

The suffix -as in names of the old argaed dynasty are Illyrian, not grek. (Tyrimmas).


Possible the Balts were illyrians too, or the Thracians?
cause Thracian have -as also


BTW
why Albanian does not have -as?
but -i
Ducagin- i
Kelmend-i
etc

Johane Derite
26-04-19, 22:46
Possible the Balts were illyrians too, or the Thracians?
cause Thracian have -as also


BTW
why Albanian does not have -as?
but -i
Ducagin- i
Kelmend-i
etc

The illyrian and thracian languages do have affinities with the baltic languages. Though they are not branches of baltic-slavic.

Albanian, like almost all indo european languages has lost these suffixes,only lithuanian, which is one of the more conservative has saved them.

According to Edward Stuart Mann, Tyrimmas has survived in Albanian "Trim" (Hero, Brave)

Yetos
26-04-19, 22:51
The illyrian and thracian languages do have affinities with the baltic languages. Though they are not branches of baltic-slavic.

Albanian, like almost all indo european languages has lost these suffixes,only lithuanian, which is one of the more conservative has saved them.

According to Edward Stuart Mann, Tyrimmas has survived in Albanian "Trim" (Hero, Brave)

and why Greek still holds them?
Maybe Albanian is not Illyrian?


Besides WHY the ending-as should be from Illyrian and not from Thracian or Baltic ?
since Greek is also IE and Makedonian Dialect was IE why not be a remnant of proto-Greek as most linguists say

Because a Scholar wanted it so to be?

oh really?
ΤΥΡΙΜΜΑΣ


22. TYRIMMAS m Greek Mythology
Tyrimmas, an Argead king of Macedon and son of Coenus. Also known as Temenus. In Greek mythology, Temenus was the son of Aristomaches and a great-great grandson of Herakles. He became king of Argos. Tyrimmas was also a man from Epirus and father of Evippe, who consorted with Odysseus (Parthenius of Nicaea, Love Romances, 3.1). Its full meaning is “the one who loves cheese”.

From a List of 100 Makedonian names

MAKEDONIAN ARGEIADS WERE OF DORIC HERITAGE
THEIR ORIGIN IS TODAY SOUTH MAKEDONIA AND THESSALY
ARGEIADS MEAN FROM THE VALEY, FROM ARGOS WHICH MEANS FLAT FERTILE LAND, WHERE WATER FLOWS ARGA,
ARGOS AND AGROS IS THE SAME THING,
YET THE FIRST MAKEDONIAN KING MOVED TILL ARGOS PELOPONESE WITH TEMENIDES AND THEN RETURN TO MAKE THE KINGDOM,

LABERIA
26-04-19, 22:55
The illyrian and thracian languages do have affinities with the baltic languages. Though they are not branches of baltic-slavic.

Albanian, like almost all indo european languages has lost these suffixes,only lithuanian, which is one of the more conservative has saved them.

According to Edward Stuart Mann, Tyrimmas has survived in Albanian "Trim" (Hero, Brave)

Blerimas

Buçimas


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bu%C3%A7imas)
The municipal unit consisted of the villages Buçimas, Tushemisht, Gurras, Gështënjas, Remaj, and Vërdovë.[3]



Lekas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekas)

The municipal unit consists of the villages Lekas, Marian, Gjonbabas, Gurmujas, Shkozan, Xerje, Tudas, Gjergjevicë, Lavdar, Brozdovec, Mazrek and Poponivë.[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekas#cite_note-3)

Perse lodhesh kot me ate?

Johane Derite
26-04-19, 23:00
Blerimas

Buçimas


(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bu%C3%A7imas)

Lekas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lekas)


Perse lodhesh kot me ate?

Thanks for this Laberia

LABERIA
26-04-19, 23:05
Thanks for this Laberia
Only Mollas(molla= apple) are three, Mollas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mollas). There are plenty of villages with the suffix as.

Yetos
26-04-19, 23:16
100 MAKEDONIAN NAMES ALL HAVE GREEK ETYMOLOGY

KINGS OF MACEDON AND DIADOCHI
1. ALEXANDROS m Ancient Greek (ALEXANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: al-eg-ZAN-dur
From the Greek name Alexandros, which meant ‘defending men’ from Greek alexein ‘to defend, protect, help’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). Alexander the Great, King of Macedon, is the most famous bearer of this name. In the 4th century BC he built a huge empire out of Greece, Egypt, Persia, and parts of India. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon.
2. PHILIPPOS m Ancient Greek (PHILIP Latinized)
Pronounced: FIL-ip
From the Greek name Philippos which means ‘friend of horses’, composed of the elements philos ‘friend’ and hippos ‘horse’. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon, including Philip II the father of Alexander the Great.
3. AEROPOS m Ancient Greek, Greek Mythology
Male form of Aerope who in Greek mythology was the wife of King Atreus of Mycenae. Aeropos was also the son of Aerope, daughter of Kepheus: ‘Ares, the Tegeans say, mated with Aerope, daughter of Kepheus (king of Tegea), the son of Aleos. She died in giving birth to a child, Aeropos, who clung to his mother even when she was dead, and sucked great abundance of milk from her breasts. Now this took place by the will of Ares.’ (Pausanias 8.44.) The name was borne by two kings of Macedon.
4. ALKETAS m Ancient Greek (ALCAEUS Latinized)
Pronounced: al-SEE-us
Derived from Greek alke meaning ‘strength’. This was the name of a 7th-century BC lyric poet from the island of Lesbos.
5. AMYNTAS m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek amyntor meaning ‘defender’. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
6. ANTIGONOS m Ancient Greek (ANTIGONUS Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nus
Means ‘like the ancestor’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and goneus ‘ancestor’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander died, he took control of most of Asia Minor. He was known as Antigonus ‘Monophthalmos’ (‘the One-Eyed’). Antigonos II (ruled 277-239 BC) was known as ‘Gonatos’ (‘knee, kneel’).
7. ANTIPATROS m Ancient Greek (ANTIPATER Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TI-pa-tur
From the Greek name Antipatros, which meant ‘like the father’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and pater ‘father’. This was the name of an officer of Alexander the Great, who became the regent of Macedon during Alexander’s absence.
8. ARCHELAOS m Ancient Greek (ARCHELAUS Latinized)
Pronounced: ar-kee-LAY-us
Latinized form of the Greek name Archelaos, which meant ‘master of the people’ from arche ‘master’ and laos ‘people’. It was also the name of the 7th Spartan king who came in the throne of Sparti in 886 BC, long before the establishment of the Macedonian state.
9. ARGAIOS m Greek Mythology (ARGUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek argos meaning ‘glistening, shining’. In Greek myth this name belongs to both the man who built the Argo and a man with a hundred eyes. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
10. DEMETRIOS m Ancient Greek (DEMETRIUS Latinized)
Latin form of the Greek name Demetrios, which was derived from the name of the Greek goddess Demeter. Kings of Macedon and the Seleucid kingdom have had this name. Demetrios I (ruled 309-301 BC) was known as ‘Poliorketes’ (the ‘Beseiger’).
11. KARANOS m Ancient Greek (CARANUS Latinized)
Derived from the archaic Greek word ‘koiranos’ or ‘karanon”, meaning ‘ruler’, ‘leader’ or ‘king’. Both words stem from the same archaic Doric root ‘kara’ meaning head, hence leader, royal master. The word ‘koiranos’ already had the meaning of ruler or king in Homer. Karanos is the name of the founder of the Argead dynasty of the Kings of Macedon.
12. KASSANDROS m Greek Mythology (CASSANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: ka-SAN-dros
Possibly means ‘shining upon man’, derived from Greek kekasmai ‘to shine’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). In Greek myth Cassandra was a Trojan princess, the daughter of Priam and Hecuba. She was given the gift of prophecy by Apollo, but when she spurned his advances he cursed her so nobody would believe her prophecies. The name of a king of Macedon.
13. KOINOS m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek koinos meaning ‘usual, common’. An Argead king of Macedon in the 8th century BC.
14. LYSIMACHOS m Ancient Greek (LYSIMACHUS Latinized)
Means ‘a loosening of battle’ from Greek lysis ‘a release, loosening’ and mache ‘battle’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander’s death Lysimachus took control of Thrace.
15. SELEUKOS m Ancient Greek (SELEUCUS Latinized)
Means ‘to be light’, ‘to be white’, derived from the Greek word leukos meaning ‘white, bright’. This was the name of one of Alexander’s generals that claimed most of Asia and founded the Seleucid dynasty after the death of Alexander in Babylon.
16. ARRIDHAIOS m Ancient Greek
Son of Philip II and later king of Macedon. The greek etymology is Ari (= much) + adj Daios (= terrifying). Its full meaning is “too terrifying”. Its Aeolian type is Arribaeos.
17. ORESTES m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: o-RES-teez
Derived from Greek orestais meaning ‘of the mountains’. In Greek myth he was the son of Agamemnon. He killed his mother Clytemnestra after she killed his father. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 399-396 BC).
18. PAUSANIAS m Ancient Greek
King of Macedon in 393 BC. Pausanias was also the name of the Spartan king at the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC, and the name of the Greek traveller, geographer and writer whose most famous work is ‘Description of Greece’, and also the name of the man who assassinated Philip II of Macedon in 336 BC.
19. PERDIKKAS m Ancient Greek (PERDICCAS Latinized)
Derived from Greek perdika meaning ‘partridge’. Perdikkas I is presented as founder of the kingdom of Macedon in Herodotus 8.137. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
20. PERSEUS m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: PUR-see-us
It derives from Greek verb pertho meaning ‘to destroy, conquer’. Its full meaning is the “conqueror”. Perseus was a hero in Greek legend. He killed Medusa, who was so ugly that anyone who gazed upon her was turned to stone, by looking at her in the reflection of his shield and slaying her in her sleep. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 179-168 BC).
21. PTOLEMEOS m Ancient Greek (PTOLEMY Latinized)
Pronounced: TAWL-e-mee
Derived from Greek polemeios meaning ‘aggressive’ or ‘warlike’. Ptolemy was the name of several Greco-Egyptian rulers of Egypt, all descendents of Ptolemy I, one of Alexander the Great’s generals. This was also the name of a Greek astronomer. Ptolemy ‘Keraunos’ (ruled 281-279 BC) is named after the lighting bolt thrown by Zeus.
22. TYRIMMAS m Greek Mythology
Tyrimmas, an Argead king of Macedon and son of Coenus. Also known as Temenus. In Greek mythology, Temenus was the son of Aristomaches and a great-great grandson of Herakles. He became king of Argos. Tyrimmas was also a man from Epirus and father of Evippe, who consorted with Odysseus (Parthenius of Nicaea, Love Romances, 3.1). Its full meaning is “the one who loves cheese”.
QUEENS AND ROYAL FAMILY
23. EURYDIKE f Greek Mythology (EURYDICE Latinized)
Means ‘wide justice’ from Greek eurys ‘wide’ and dike ‘justice’. In Greek myth she was the wife of Orpheus. Her husband tried to rescue her from Hades, but he failed when he disobeyed the condition that he not look back upon her on their way out. Name of the mother of Philip II of Macedon.
24. BERENIKE f Ancient Greek (BERENICE Latinized)
Pronounced: ber-e-NIE-see
Means ‘bringing victory’ from pherein ‘to bring’ and nike ‘victory’. This name was common among the Ptolemy ruling family of Egypt.
25. KLEOPATRA f Ancient Greek (CLEOPATRA Latinized), English
Pronounced: klee-o-PAT-ra
Means ‘glory of the father’ from Greek kleos ‘glory’ combined with patros ‘of the father’. In the Iliad, the name of the wife of Meleager of Aetolia. This was also the name of queens of Egypt from the Ptolemaic royal family, including Cleopatra VII, the mistress of both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. After being defeated by Augustus she committed suicide by allowing herself to be bitten by an asp. Also the name of a bride of Philip II of Macedon.
26. CYNNA f Ancient Greek
Half-sister of Alexander the great. Her name derives from the adj. of doric dialect Cyna (= tough).
27. THESSALONIKI f Ancient Greek
Means ‘victory over the Thessalians’, from the name of the region of Thessaly and niki, meaning ‘victory’. Name of Alexander the Great’s step sister and of the city of Thessaloniki which was named after her in 315 BC.
GENERALS, SOLDIERS, PHILOSOPHERS AND OTHERS
28. PARMENION m ancient Greek
The most famous General of Philip and Alexander the great. Another famous bearer of this name was the olympic winner Parmenion of Mitiline. His name derives from the name Parmenon + the ending -ion used to note descendancy. It means the “descedant of Parmenon”.
29. PEUKESTAS m Ancient Greek
He saved Alexander the Great in India. One of the most known Macedonians. His name derives from Πευκής (= sharp) + the Doric ending -tas. Its full meaning is the “one who is sharp”.
30. ARISTOPHANES m Ancient Greek
Derived from the Greek elements aristos ‘best’ and phanes ‘appearing’. The name of one of Alexander the Great’s personal body guard who was present during the murder of Cleitus. (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’). This was also the name of a 5th-century BC Athenian playwright.
31. KORRAGOS m Ancient Greek
The Macedonian who challenged into a fight the Olympic winner Dioxippos and lost. His name derives from Koira (= army) + ago (= lead). Korragos has the meaning of “the leader of the army”.
32. ARISTON m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek aristos meaning ‘the best’. The name of a Macedonian officer on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book II, 9 and Book III, 11, 14).
33. KLEITUS m Ancient Greek (CLEITUS Latinized)
Means ‘calling forth’ or ‘summoned’ in Greek. A phalanx battalion commander in Alexander the Great’s army at the Battle of Hydaspes. Also the name of Alexander’s nurse’s brother, who severed the arm of the Persian Spithridates at the Battle of the Granicus.
34. HEPHAISTION m Greek Mythology
Derived from Hephaistos (‘Hephaestus’ Latinized) who in Greek mythology was the god of fire and forging and one of the twelve Olympian deities. Hephaistos in Greek denotes a ‘furnace’ or ‘volcano’. Hephaistion was the companion and closest friend of Alexander the Great. He was also known as ‘Philalexandros’ (‘friend of Alexander’).
35. HERAKLEIDES m Ancient Greek (HERACLEIDES Latinized)
Perhaps means ‘key of Hera’ from the name of the goddess Hera combined with Greek kleis ‘key’ or kleidon ‘little key’. The name of two Macedonian soldiers on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 2; Book III, 11 and Book VII, 16).
36. KRATEROS m Ancient Greek (CRATERUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek adj. Κρατερός (= Powerful). This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. A friend of Alexander the Great, he was also known as ‘Philobasileus’ (‘friend of the King’).
37. NEOPTOLEMOS m Greek Mythology (NEOPTOLEMUS Latinized)
Means ‘new war’, derived from Greek neos ‘new’ and polemos ‘war’. In Greek legend this was the name of the son of Achilles, brought into the Trojan War because it was prophesied the Greeks could not win it unless he was present. After the war he was slain by Orestes because of his marriage to Hermione. Neoptolemos was believed to be the ancestor of Alexander the Great on his mother’s (Olympias’) side (Plutarch). The name of two Macedonian soldiers during Alexander’s campaigns (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 6 and Book II, 27).
38. PHILOTAS m Ancient Greek
From Greek philotes meaning ‘friendship’. Son of Parmenion and a commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry.
39. PHILOXENOS m Ancient Greek
Meaning ‘friend of strangers’ derived from Greek philos meaning friend and xenos meaning ‘stranger, foreigner’. The name of a Macedonian soldier on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book III, 6).
40. MENELAOS m Greek Mythology (MENELAUS Latinized)
Means ‘withstanding the people’ from Greek meno ‘to last, to withstand’ and laos ‘the people’. In Greek legend he was a king of Sparta and the husband of Helen. When his wife was taken by Paris, the Greeks besieged the city of Troy in an effort to get her back. After the war Menelaus and Helen settled down to a happy life. Macedonian naval commander during the wars of the Diadochi and brother of Ptolemy Lagos.
41. LAOMEDON m ancient greek
Friend from boyhood of Alexander and later Satrap. His names derives from the greek noun laos (λαός = “people” + medon (μέδω = “the one who governs”)
42. POLYPERCHON Ancient Greek
Macedonian, Son of Simmias His name derives from the greek word ‘Πολύ’ (=much) + σπέρχω (= rush).
43. HEGELOCHOS m (HEGELOCHUS Latinized)
Known as the conspirator. His name derives from the greek verb (ηγέομαι = “walking ahead” + greek noun λόχος = “set up ambush”).
44. POLEMON m ancient Greek
From the house of Andromenes. Brother of Attalos. Means in greek “the one who is fighting in war”.
45. AUTODIKOS m ancient greek
Somatophylax of Philip III. His name in greek means “the one who takes the law into his (own) hands”
46. BALAKROS m ancient Greek
Son of Nicanor. We already know Macedonians usually used a “beta” instead of a “phi” which was used by Atheneans (eg. “belekys” instead of “pelekys”, “balakros” instead of “falakros”). “Falakros” has the meaning of “bald”.
47. NIKANOR (Nικάνωρ m ancient Greek; Latin: Nicanor) means “victor” – from Nike (Νικη) meaning “victory”.
Nicanor was the name of the father of Balakras. He was a distinguished Macedonian during the reign of Phillip II.
Another Nicanor was the son of Parmenion and brother of Philotas. He was a distinguished officer (commander of the Hypaspists) in the service of Alexander the Great. He died of disease in Bactria in 330 BC.
48. LEONNATOS m ancient Greek
One of the somatophylakes of Alexander. His name derives from Leon (= Lion) + the root Nat of noun Nator (= dashing). The full meaning is “Dashing like the lion”.
49. KRITOLAOS m ancient Hellinic
He was a potter from Pella. His name was discovered in amphoras in Pella during 1980-87. His name derives from Κρίτος (= the chosen) + Λαός (= the people). Its full meaning is “the chosen of the people”.
50. ZOILOS m ancient Hellinic
Father of Myleas from Beroia – From zo-e (ΖΩΗ) indicating ‘lively’, ‘vivacious’. Hence the Italian ‘Zoilo’
51. ZEUXIS m ancient Hellinic
Name of a Macedonian commander of Lydia in the time of Antigonos III and also the name of a Painter from Heraclea – from ‘zeugnumi’ = ‘to bind’, ‘join together’
52. LEOCHARIS m ancient Hellinic
Sculptor – Deriving from ‘Leon’ = ‘lion’ and ‘charis’ = ‘grace’. Literally meaning the ‘lion’s grace’.
53. DEINOKRATIS m ancient Hellinic
Helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt.
From ‘deinow’ = ‘to make terrible’ and ‘kratein’ = “to rule”
Obviously indicating a ‘terrible ruler’
54. ADMETOS (Άδμητος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the word a+damaw(damazw) and mean tameless,obstreperous.Damazw mean chasten, prevail
55. ANDROTIMOS (Ανδρότιμος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the words andreios (brave, courageous) and timitis(honest, upright )
56. PEITHON m Ancient Greek
Means “the one who persuades”. It was a common name among Macedonians and the most famous holders of that names were Peithon, son of Sosicles, responsible for the royal pages and Peithon, son of Krateuas, a marshal of Alexander the Great.
57. SOSTRATOS m Ancient Greek
Derives from the Greek words “Σως (=safe) +Στρατος (=army)”. He was son of Amyntas and was executed as a conspirator.
58. DIMNOS m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek verb “δειμαίνω (= i have fear). One of the conspirators.
59. TIMANDROS m Ancient Greek
Meaning “Man’s honour”. It derives from the greek words “Τιμή (=honour) + Άνδρας (=man). One of the commanders of regular Hypaspistes.
60. TLEPOLEMOS ,(τληπόλεμος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “τλήμων (=brave) + πόλεμος (=war)”. In greek mythology Tlepolemos was a son of Heracles. In alexanders era, Tlepolemos was appointed Satrap of Carmania from Alexander the Great.
61. AXIOS (Άξιος) m ancient Greek
Meaning “capable”. His name was found on one inscription along with his patronymic “Άξιος Αντιγόνου Μακεδών”.
62. THEOXENOS (Θεόξενος) ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “θεός (=god) + ξένος (=foreigner).His name appears as a donator of the Apollo temple along with his patronymic and city of origin(Θεόξενος Αισχρίωνος Κασσανδρεύς).
63. MITRON (Μήτρων) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word “Μήτηρ (=Mother)”. Mitron of Macedon appears in a inscription as a donator
64. KLEOCHARIS (Κλεοχάρης) M ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Κλέος (=fame) + “Χάρις (=Grace). Kleocharis, son of Pytheas from Amphipoli was a Macedonian honoured in the city of Eretria at the time of Demetrius son of Antigonus.
65. PREPELAOS (Πρεπέλαος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “πρέπω (=be distinguished) + λαος (=people). He was a general of Kassander.
66. HIPPOLOCHOS (Ιππόλοχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words “Ίππος” (= horse) + “Λόχος”(=set up ambush). Hippolochos was a Macedonian historian (ca. 300 B.C.)
67. ALEXARCHOS (Αλέξαρχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from Greek “Αλέξω” (=defend, protect, help) + “Αρχος ” (= master). Alexarchos was brother of Cassandros.
68. ASCLEPIODOROS (Ασκληπιοδορος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Asclepios (= cut up) + Doro (=Gift). Asclepios was the name of the god of healing and medicine in Greek mythology. Asclepiodoros was a prominent Macedonian, son of Eunikos from Pella. Another Asclepiodoros in Alexander’s army was son of Timandros.
69. KALLINES (Καλλινης) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words kalli + nao (=stream beautifully). He was a Macedonian, officer of companions.
70. PLEISTARHOS (Πλείσταρχος) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Pleistos (=too much) + Arhos ((= master). He was younger brother of Cassander.
71. POLYKLES (Πολυκλής) m ancient Greek
Derives from the words Poli (=city) + Kleos (glory). Macedonian who served as Strategos of Antipater.
72. POLYDAMAS (Πολυδάμας) m ancient Greek
The translation of his name means “the one who subordinates a city”. One Hetairos.
73. APOLLOPHANES (Απολλοφάνης) m ancient greek.
His name derives from the greek verb “απολλυμι” (=to destroy) and φαίνομαι (= appear to be). Apollophanes was a prominent Macedonian who was appointed Satrap of Oreitae.
74. ARCHIAS (Αρχίας) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command). Archias was one of the Macedonian trierarchs in Hydaspes river.
75. ARCHESILAOS (Αρχεσίλαος) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command) + Λαος (= people). Archesilaos was a Macedonian that received the satrapy of Mesopotamia in the settlement of 323.
76. ARETAS (Αρετας) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word Areti (=virtue). He was commander of Sarissoforoi at Gaugamela.
77. KLEANDROS (Κλέανδρος) m ancient Greek
Derives from greek verb Κλέος (=fame) + Ανδρος (=man). He was commander of Archers and was killed in Hallicarnasus in 334 BC.
78. AGESISTRATOS (Αγησίστρατος) m ancient greek
Father of Paramonos, a general of Antigonos Doson. His name derives from verb ηγήσομαι ( = lead in command) + στρατος (= army). “Hgisomai” in Doric dialect is “Agisomai”. Its full meaning is “the one who leads the army”
79. AGERROS (Αγερρος) M ancient Greek
He was father of Andronikos, general of Alexander. His name derives from the verb αγέρρω (= the one who makes gatherings)
80. AVREAS (Αβρέας) m ancient Greek
Officer of Alexander the great. His name derives from the adj. αβρός (=polite)
81. AGATHANOR (Αγαθάνωρ) m ancient Greek
Som of Thrasycles. He was priest of Asklepios for about 5 years. His origin was from Beroia as is attested from an inscription. His name derives from the adj. αγαθός (= virtuous) + ανήρ (= man). The full meaning of his name is “Virtuous man”
82. AGAKLES (Αγακλής) m ancient Greek
He was son of Simmihos and was from Pella. He is known from a resolution of Aetolians. His name derives from the adj. Αγακλεής (= too glorious)
83. AGASIKLES (Αγασικλής) m ancient Greek
Son of Mentor, from Dion of Macedonia. It derives from the verb άγαμαι (= admire) + Κλέος (=fame). Its full meaning is “the one who admires fame”
84. AGGAREOS (Αγγάρεος) m ancient Greek
Son of Dalon from Amphipolis. He is known from an inscription of Amphipolis (S.E.G vol 31. ins. 616) It derives from the noun Αγγαρεία (= news)
85. AGELAS (Αγέλας) m ancient Greek
Son of Alexander. He was born during the mid-5th BCE and was an ambassador of Macedonians during the treaty between Macedonians and Atheneans. This treaty exists in inscription 89.vol1 Fasc.1 Ed.3″Attic inscrip.”
His name was common among Heraclides and Bacchiades. One Agelas was king of Corinth during the first quarter of 5 BCE. His name derives from the verb άγω (= lead) and the noun Λαός (= people or even soldiers (Homeric)). The full meaning is the “one who leads the people/soldiers”.
86. AGIPPOS (Άγιππος) m ancient Greek
He was from Beroia of Macedonia and lived during middle 3rd BCE. He is known from an inscription found in Beroia where his name appears as the witness in a slave-freeing. Another case bearing the name Agippos in the Greek world was the father of Timokratos from Zakynthos. The name Agippos derives from the verb άγω (= lead) + the word ίππος (= Horse). Its full meaning is “the one who leads the horse/calvary”.
87. AGLAIANOS (Αγλαϊάνος) m ancient Greek
He was from Amphipolis of Macedonia (c. 4th BC) and he is known from an inscription S.E.G vol41., insc. 556
His name consists of aglai- from the verb αγλαϊζω (= honour) and the ending -anos.
88. AGNOTHEOS (Αγνόθεος) m ancient Greek
Macedonian, possibly from Pella. His name survived from an inscription found in Pella between 300-250 BCE. (SEG vol46.insc.799)
His name derives from Αγνός ( = pure) + Θεός (=God). The full meaning is “the one who has inside a pure god”
89. ATHENAGORAS (Αθηναγόρας) m ancient Greek
General of Philip V. He was the general who stopped Dardanian invasion in 199 BC. His name derives from the verb αγορά-ομαι (=deliver a speech) + the name Αθηνά (= Athena).
90. PERIANDROS (Περίανδρος) m ancient Greek
Son of the Macedonian historian Marsyas. His name derives from Περί (= too much) + άνηρ (man, brave). Its full meaning is “too brave/man”.
91. LEODISKOS (Λεοντίσκος) m ancient Greek
He was son of Ptolemy A’ and Thais, His name derives from Λέων (= lion) + the ending -iskos (=little). His name’s full etymology is “Little Lion”
92. EPHRANOR (Ευφράνωρ) m ancient Greek
He was General of Perseas. It derives from the verb Ευφραίνω (= delight). Its full meaning is “the one who delights”.
93. DIONYSOPHON m Ancient Greek
It has the meaning “Voice of Dionysos”. The ending -phon is typical among ancient greek names.
MACEDONIAN WOMEN
94. ANTIGONE f ancient Greek
Usage: Greek Mythology
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nee
Means ‘against birth’ from Greek anti ‘against’ and gone ‘birth’. In Greek legend Antigone was the daughter of Oedipus and Jocasta. King Creon of Thebes declared that her slain brother Polynices was to remain unburied, a great dishonour. She disobeyed and gave him a proper burial, and for this she was sealed alive in a cave. Antigone of Pydna was the mistress of Philotas, the son of Parmenion and commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’).
95. VOULOMAGA (Βουλομάγα) f ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Βούλομαι (=desire) + άγαν (=too much)”. Her name is found among donators.
96. ATALANTE (Αταλαντη) f ancient Greek
Her name means in Greek “without talent”. She was daughter of Orontes, and sister of Perdiccas.
97. AGELAEIA (Αγελαεία) f ancient Greek
Wife of Amyntas, from the city of Beroia (S.E.G vol 48. insc. 738)
It derives from the adj. Αγέλα-ος ( = the one who belongs to a herd)
98. ATHENAIS (Αθηναϊς) f ancient Greek
The name was found on an altar of Heracles Kigagidas in Beroia. It derives from the name Athena and the ending -is meaning “small”. Its whole meaning is “little Athena”.
99. STRATONIKE f Ancient Greek (STRATONICE Latinized)
Means ‘victorious army’ from stratos ‘army’ and nike ‘victory’. Sister of King Perdiccas II. “…and Perdiccas afterwards gave his sister Stratonice to Seuthes as he had promised.” (Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, Chapter VIII)
100. THETIMA f Ancient Greek
A name from Pella Katadesmos. It has the meaning “she who honors the gods”; the standard Attic form would be Theotimē.

RagnarofMacedon
01-05-19, 04:50
Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks , you have new lecture Prof. Kenneth W. Harl on 'The World of Early Macedon' , With saying couple of times "The Macedonians were not Greeks at all", you need to listen this lecture to clear your delusional behavior , Write on YOUTUBE The ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians , duration time of the video os 29:56 . Macedonians wasn't illyrians , they were most similar to Thracians and nowdays Illyrians are not Albanians at all , if someone is descentant from illyrians thats Croats,Bosnians at majority also Serbians..Here's cut from book "Kingdom of the Slavs" by Mavro Orbini from 14 century page 69 , there is records from 1 century BC with notable ancient historians;

"In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Thracians and Mezi (Serbs) speak the same,Slavic language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "

This book was forbidden by Vatican many years...
The Ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians
duration time 29:56 ,






In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Trachani and Mezi speak the same,Slovenian language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "

LABERIA
01-05-19, 06:18
Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks , you have new lecture Prof. Kenneth W. Harl on 'The World of Early Macedon' , With saying couple of times "The Macedonians were not Greeks at all", you need to listen this lecture to clear your delusional behavior , Write on YOUTUBE The ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians , duration time of the video os 29:56 . Macedonians wasn't illyrians , they were most similar to Thracians and nowdays Illyrians are not Albanians at all , if someone is descentant from illyrians thats Croats,Bosnians at majority also Serbians..Here's cut from book "Kingdom of the Slavs" by Mavro Orbini from 14 century page 69 , there is records from 1 century BC with notable ancient historians;

"In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Thracians and Mezi (Serbs) speak the same,Slavic language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "
This book was forbidden by Vatican many years...
The Ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians
duration time 29:56 ,
In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Trachani and Mezi speak the same,Slovenian language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "
The stadium was previously known as the City Stadium Skopje (Macedonian: Градски Стадион Скопје) until 2009 and Philip II Arena (Macedonian: Национална Арена Филип Втори) until 2019, when was renamed in a honour of the Macedonian pop icon Toshe Proeski.[2]
In February 2018 Alexander the Great was dropped from the airport's name in a move to improve relations with Greece.[11] A few months before Aegean Airlines announced future flights between Athens and Skopje,[12] the first flights to Greece for several years, despite with the ongoing tensions between the naming dispute for both countries.
Your most important hero is Toshe Proeski.
BTW, is true that you intend to name the no name airport Justinian XVII or something like this?

Yetos
01-05-19, 07:12
However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "

In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Trachani and Mezi speak the same,Slovenian language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French.

1) So ancient Makedonians spoke Slav?
Slovenian or Moskvitc?
So Slavic languages existed before the known entrance of Slavs in Balkans.

2) and Makedonians were named Greeks for the empire of Greeks? which is after Alexander offcourse, hm simply Oxymoron

3) and Russian language ruled Egypt 276 years ago.

Yetos
01-05-19, 07:14
The stadium was previously known as the City Stadium Skopje (Macedonian: Градски Стадион Скопје) until 2009 and Philip II Arena (Macedonian: Национална Арена Филип Втори) until 2019, when was renamed in a honour of the Macedonian pop icon Toshe Proeski.[2]
In February 2018 Alexander the Great was dropped from the airport's name in a move to improve relations with Greece.[11] A few months before Aegean Airlines announced future flights between Athens and Skopje,[12] the first flights to Greece for several years, despite with the ongoing tensions between the naming dispute for both countries.
Your most important hero is Toshe Proeski.
BTW, is true that you intend to name the no name airport Justinian XVII or something like this?


Vey interesting,
The one who believe is autochthonos in Balkans,

Archetype0ne
01-05-19, 07:53
Ancient Macedonians were not Greeks , you have new lecture Prof. Kenneth W. Harl on 'The World of Early Macedon' , With saying couple of times "The Macedonians were not Greeks at all", you need to listen this lecture to clear your delusional behavior , Write on YOUTUBE The ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians , duration time of the video os 29:56 . Macedonians wasn't illyrians , they were most similar to Thracians and nowdays Illyrians are not Albanians at all , if someone is descentant from illyrians thats Croats,Bosnians at majority also Serbians..Here's cut from book "Kingdom of the Slavs" by Mavro Orbini from 14 century page 69 , there is records from 1 century BC with notable ancient historians;

"In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Thracians and Mezi (Serbs) speak the same,Slavic language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "

This book was forbidden by Vatican many years...
The Ethnicity of the Ancient Macedonians
duration time 29:56 ,








In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completelyit is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the samethe language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Trachani and Mezi speak the same,Slovenian language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleadingis that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just liketoday the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitlyconfirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among otherscountries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago. "
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Dimitrios_Dendrinos/publication/317434220/figure/fig12/AS:[email protected]/Relative-size-of-the-US-compared-to-Alexanders-Empire-and-regions-Source.pnghttps://previews.123rf.com/images/peterhermesfurian/peterhermesfurian1408/peterhermesfurian140800021/30566349-the-empire-of-alexander-the-great-an-his-conquest-course-from-greece-to-india-to-babylon-in-334-323-.jpg
Of course there is continuity, for at least for part of the population of Macedonia with Ancient Macedon, anybody with any common sense would agree.
However saying Albanians and Illyrians have no connection is a huge stretch. Check the map of Alexanders empire and you will notice Albania proper as well as Epiros are not part of the empire(at least not conquered by war, but rather by marriage). Why do you think that is?

Because Alexanders mother as well as half his blood was from that region. A nice chunk of his army were from the region where today Albanians live.
So please leave your prejudice towards modern Albanians at the door when addressing historic population genealogy.

Do me and yourself a favor and google Emathia/Ematia. Modern day Mat. Philip had a large royal house there. And albeit he did initially fight wars against Dardans and Illyrians by the time of Alexanders empire they were allies.

I find it sad how modern politics prejudices ancient history. Truly sad.

"Olympias was the daughter of Neoptolemus I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoptolemus_I_of_Epirus), king of the Molossians (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians), an ancient Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece) tribe in Epirus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus), and sister of Alexander I (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Epirus). Her family belonged to the Aeacidae (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeacidae), a well-respected family of Epirus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus), which claimed descent from Neoptolemus (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoptolemus), son of Achilles (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achilles). "


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/89/Cassandre_et_Olympia-Jean_Joseph_Taillasson_mg_8223.jpg/350px-Cassandre_et_Olympia-Jean_Joseph_Taillasson_mg_8223.jpg


PS: Albanians and Macedonians should rather get along, since we already have contributed for hundreds if not thousands of years to each others victories and defeats.
Love thy neighbor.

PPS: How were ancient Macedonians Slavs? You are missing 1000 years mate.


The Macedonians (Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) were an ancient tribe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_Greek_tribes) that lived on the alluvial plain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alluvial_plain) around the rivers Haliacmon (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haliacmon) and lower Axios (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axios) in the northeastern part of mainland Greece (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_Greece#Mainland). Essentially an ancient Greek people (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greece),[1] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians#cite_note-Macedonians-1) they gradually expanded from their homeland along the Haliacmon valley on the northern edge of the Greek world, absorbing or driving out neighbouring non-Greek tribes, primarily Thracian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians) and Illyrian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians).[2] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians#cite_note-2)[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians#cite_note-GroupedRef4-3)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonians

Slavs are an Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-Europeans) ethno-linguistic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnolinguistic_group) group who speak the various Slavic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages) of the larger Balto-Slavic linguistic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balto-Slavic_language) group. They are native to Eurasia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasia), stretching from Central (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe), Eastern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Europe), and Southeastern (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeast_Europe) Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe) all the way north and eastwards to Northeast Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Europe), Northern Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Asia) (Siberia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia)), and Central Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Asia) (especially Kazakhstan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Kazakhstan) and Turkmenistan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russians_in_Turkmenistan)), as well as historically in Western Europe (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Europe) (particularly in East Germany (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany)) and Western Asia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Asia)(including Anatolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia)). From the early 6th century they spread to inhabit the majority of Central, Eastern and Southeastern Europe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavs

It is fine to be proud of your Slavhood, it is not fine to bend history the way you are with post 19th century propaganda.

blevins13
01-05-19, 13:30
Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians) in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paraskevi_Tritsaroli/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece/links/5b2e63baa6fdcc8506c3edde/The-Pigi-Athinas-tumuli-cemetery-of-macedonian-olympus-Burial-customs-and-the-bioarchaeology-of-social-structures-at-the-dawn-of-the-late-Bronze-Age-central-Macedonia-Greece.pdf?origin=publication_detail


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Yetos
01-05-19, 16:35
Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians) in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paraskevi_Tritsaroli/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece/links/5b2e63baa6fdcc8506c3edde/The-Pigi-Athinas-tumuli-cemetery-of-macedonian-olympus-Burial-customs-and-the-bioarchaeology-of-social-structures-at-the-dawn-of-the-late-Bronze-Age-central-Macedonia-Greece.pdf?origin=publication_detail


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:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

:confused2: :confused2: :confused2:

:petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

Where? does it say such things?
in fact in the area was the Orpheus Pieroi the Thracian city Λειβηθρα,

Pigi Athenas Πηγη Αθηνας
is the Neolithic cemetery,
and later one of the most North and isolated Mycenean dwellings
Maybe the Neolithic tombs for you are Illyrian?
Now what? Illyrians were not bronze age? but Neolithic farmers or HG? :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:


:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

I am very disapointed.

:sad-2: :sad-2: :sad-2:

Piro Ilir
01-05-19, 16:55
So you believe one of their claims but not the other? If they were from Argos they were obviously Greeks.

Keep in mind the context of the time when such heritage was acclaimed. It was done for prestige and for participating at the Olympic games. Romans did the same when they claimed heritage from Trojans. This was politics. The truth about them is on the statement; went leaving among Illyrians.

Piro Ilir
01-05-19, 17:08
They were most likely from Argos in Orestea, not peleponnese

Strabo: "And in fact the regions about Lyncus, Pelagonia, Orestias, and Elimeia, used to be called Upper Macedonia, though later on they were by some also called Free Macedonia. But some go so far as to call the whole of the country Macedonia, as far as Corcyra, 327 at the same time stating as their reason that in tonsure, language, short cloak, and other things of the kind, the usages of the inhabitants are similar (That is, to those of the Macedonians), although, they add, some speak both languages. (Geography, Book VII, 8, p. 309)"

https://i.imgur.com/iIMsmPe.jpg

From modern Y-dna studies, seems that Phrygians and Armenians, whom both migrated in Anatolia from Balkans have no relations with ancient Mycenaeans and later Hellenes. Phrygians and Armenians were R1b-Z2103 people.

I have read that the closest Albanian linguistic relative was Armenian language.

Piro Ilir
01-05-19, 17:15
You're paranoid and the 'source' is worthless. We have samples from three disparate corners of the Illyrian zone now, those are sufficient to make general predictions.

I'm not interested in Albanian history - I'm interested in Illyrian, Macedonian and especially Greek history which Albanians have nothing whatsoever to do with.

Albanians have to do a lot with the Greek history as long as both ethnicities descent from paleo/Balkans ethnolinguistic people. It would be normal after all

blevins13
01-05-19, 17:28
:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

:confused2: :confused2: :confused2:

:petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

Where? does it say such things?
in fact in the area was the Orpheus Pieroi the Thracian city Λειβηθρα,

Pigi Athenas Πηγη Αθηνας
is the Neolithic cemetery,
and later one of the most North and isolated Mycenean dwellings
Maybe the Neolithic tombs for you are Illyrian?
Now what? Illyrians were not bronze age? but Neolithic farmers or HG? :shocked: :shocked: :shocked:


:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

I am very disapointed.

:sad-2: :sad-2: :sad-2:

Read the article....Middle to late Bronze Age (1620-1500 B.C) tumulus burial before Mycenaean expansion.... In my opinion tumulus burial in general are related to Illyrians in Macedonia and Epirus during middle and late Bronze Age. So what petrifies you here ?


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Piro Ilir
01-05-19, 17:41
Simply Ignorance
You are lost of words simply as that. Katharevousan

Piro Ilir
01-05-19, 17:45
Possible the Balts were illyrians too, or the Thracians?
cause Thracian have -as also


BTW
why Albanian does not have -as?
but -i
Ducagin- i
Kelmend-i
etc

Because Albanians didn't started the so called process 'Katharevousa'.
Languages change , you are supposed to know it.

Yetos
01-05-19, 18:26
From modern Y-dna studies, seems that Phrygians and Armenians, whom both migrated in Anatolia from Balkans have no relations with ancient Mycenaeans and later Hellenes. Phrygians and Armenians were R1b-Z2103 people.

I have read that the closest Albanian linguistic relative was Armenian language.



:confused2: :confused2: :confused2:

:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

:disappointed: :disappointed: :disappointed:

Yetos
01-05-19, 18:29
SETI program
Search for Extra Terrestial Intelligence
SETI Program searchers have found that Makedonians came ANDROMEDA. :grin: :grin:




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https://www.seti.org/sites/default/files/styles/original/public/2018-05/seti_logo_starfield_560px.jpg?itok=3Gci_Y5-


https://images.spot.im/v1/production/yt0ekzfd7dopjzewtl80



come on guys be serious.

Piro Ilir
01-05-19, 18:36
Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians) in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion.
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paraskevi_Tritsaroli/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece/links/5b2e63baa6fdcc8506c3edde/The-Pigi-Athinas-tumuli-cemetery-of-macedonian-olympus-Burial-customs-and-the-bioarchaeology-of-social-structures-at-the-dawn-of-the-late-Bronze-Age-central-Macedonia-Greece.pdf?origin=publication_detail
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Tumulus graves were part of most of ancient IE tribes, Mycenaean and Illyrian including.
In my opinion, the region of Pieria during the bronze age wasn't Illyrian. It was Tracian, Mycenaean, or something else. Illyrians settled there at the end of the bronze age, circa 1200bce. Many of them became Hellenised or Hellenic, including Macedonians, Mollosians, etc etc.

blevins13
01-05-19, 18:39
SETI program
Search for Extra Terestial Intelligence
SETI Program searchers have found that Makedonians came ANDROMEDA.

What about the tumulus in Pigi Athenas Πηγη Αθηνας, did they come from Andromeda too? It so fun to see you bounce around like a windup toy trying to cover the obvious “tumulus burials” a sign of Illyrians.


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Yetos
01-05-19, 18:49
Read the article....Middle to late Bronze Age (1620-1500 B.C) tumulus burial before Mycenaean expansion.... In my opinion tumulus burial in general are related to Illyrians in Macedonia and Epirus during middle and late Bronze Age. So what petrifies you here ?


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So In your opinion,
THE LINK YOU POST US DOES NOT SAY SOMETHING AS YOUR CLAIMS,
BUT YOU LINK IT, WITH YOUR OPINION THAT SAY SUCH, right?

I guess you never been there,
you have nothing to compare etc etc
and in fact you do not know even which tomb you refferering. :useless: :useless: :useless:


:sad-2: :sad-2: :sad-2: :sad-2:


btw
I was petrified when I read your fantastic evidences (made by your opinion)

blevins13
01-05-19, 18:52
Tumulus graves were part of most of ancient IE tribes, Mycenaean and Illyrian including.
In my opinion, the region of Pieria during the bronze age wasn't Illyrian. It was Tracian, Mycenaean, or something else. Illyrians settled there at the end of the bronze age, circa 1200bce. Many of them became Hellenised or Hellenic, including Macedonians, Mollosians, etc etc.

Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture) vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.


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Piro Ilir
01-05-19, 18:53
SETI program
Search for Extra Terrestial Intelligence
SETI Program searchers have found that Makedonians came ANDROMEDA. :grin: :grin:




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https://www.seti.org/sites/default/files/styles/original/public/2018-05/seti_logo_starfield_560px.jpg?itok=3Gci_Y5-


https://images.spot.im/v1/production/yt0ekzfd7dopjzewtl80



come on guys be serious.

Modern Arvanites claim that they are Greeks, but any serious scholar acknowledged them as ethnically, Tosk Alban people.
Tosks are ethnic Albanians whom were part of the Hellenic cultural world area. Many of them claim as being Greek. But certainly they aren't. They are just an ethnic Albanian subgroup.
With Macedonians was the same. It would be like today being an American

Yetos
01-05-19, 18:58
Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture) vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.


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Nice joke
Did you hear the other joke?

Yetos
01-05-19, 19:01
Modern Arvanites claim that they are Greeks, but any serious scholar acknowledged them as ethnically, Tosk Alban people.
Tosks are ethnic Albanians whom were part of the Hellenic cultural world area. Many of them claim as being Greek. But certainly they aren't. They are just an ethnic Albanian subgroup.
With Macedonians was the same. It would be like today being an American

Whatever,
yeah I am huppy, I just remember something, lets post it,
now we left Illyrians and Makedonians
and went to modern Albanians who are not Illyrian speakers
and Modern Greeks

What is next?
will you remember to eat?

Piro Ilir
01-05-19, 19:04
From Argos fled to the country of the Illyrians three brothers of the descendants of Temenus, Gauanes, Aeropus, and Perdiccas; and passing over Illyria from the mountains they came into the upper parts of Macedonia to the city of Lebaia."

"Now that these descendants of Perdiccas are Greeks, as they themselves say, I myself chance to know and will prove it in the later part of my history."
-Herodotus.

Herodotus clearly tries to attach the Macedonian Royal dynasty to the Hellenic nation. Nevertheless, the region where these four brothers settled was Illyrian. This is obviously politics. It was crucial for ancient rulers of barbarian Illyrian descent to claim Hellenic inheritance.
Even today the southern Albanians use pejorative vocabulary against North Albanians. Generally calling them , barbarian.

Piro Ilir
01-05-19, 19:27
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon&ved=2ahUKEwiZoIOm6vrhAhXD2KQKHcfhCgsQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1TaHuhWnWFQcXSnN0eh4AT

Alexander I of Macedon, was the Macedonian king or ruler so called 'The philhellene'. He attached the Macedonian Illyrian tribe into the important Hellenic nation. He gave important help to the Greeks against their Persian foes. Basically, this ruler invented the fake political myth of Argead dynasty which was of Hellenic descent from Argos. It was his work which allowed the Macedonian nobility to participate at the Olympic games.
Everything claimed by Herodotus is merely politics

Yetos
01-05-19, 19:32
Piro

To you and your scholars
The most blind of all


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Erigon_Valley


Erigonoi ending -Gonoi Typical Makedonian Ending

blevins13
01-05-19, 19:33
Nice joke
Did you hear the other joke?

Yes on this book.... read it. Very funny.
The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World.
By David W. Anthony, 2007


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markod
01-05-19, 19:40
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon&ved=2ahUKEwiZoIOm6vrhAhXD2KQKHcfhCgsQFjAAegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw1TaHuhWnWFQcXSnN0eh4AT

Alexander I of Macedon, was the Macedonian king or ruler so called 'The philhellene'. He attached the Macedonian Illyrian tribe into the important Hellenic nation. He gave important help to the Greeks against their Persian foes. Basically, this ruler invented the fake political myth of Argead dynasty which was of Hellenic descent from Argos. It was his work which allowed the Macedonian nobility to participate at the Olympic games.
Everything claimed by Herodotus is merely politics

Considering that common Macedonians still spoke their native dialect long after Hellenization, why did no one notice that they were in fact Illyrian?

Yetos
01-05-19, 19:45
@ Blevins

Until now you told us nothing,
remember that proto-Cetina is connected with Greeks
and Thracians were also what you claim,
while Illyrians were Celtoids
IN FACT EAST OF OLYMP LIVED THE THRACIANS TRIBE PIEROI OF ORPHEUS, THE NORTHERN MYCENEANS, AND THE HERAKLEIDES which evolute to Makedonians.
SO YOUR OPINION MEANS NOTHING AND IS JUST ANOTHER SPECULATED SPAM-POST JUST FOR IMPRESSIONS
YOU POST US A LINK WHICH YOU HAVE NOIT READ IT EVEN YOU




@ Pirro

FIRST
LEARN TO WRITE CORRECT THE NAME OF EPIROS GREEK KING

SECOND
Alexander's grandma was Illyrian origin, a typical bargain among kings,
But read this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Erigon_Valley
the hate among Makedonians Brygians included and Illyrians was so big.

THIRD
they claim that 3 Makedonians were is up your mind

read the etymolgy of the names


100 MAKEDONIAN NAMES ALL HAVE GREEK ETYMOLOGY

KINGS OF MACEDON AND DIADOCHI
1. ALEXANDROS m Ancient Greek (ALEXANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: al-eg-ZAN-dur
From the Greek name Alexandros, which meant ‘defending men’ from Greek alexein ‘to defend, protect, help’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). Alexander the Great, King of Macedon, is the most famous bearer of this name. In the 4th century BC he built a huge empire out of Greece, Egypt, Persia, and parts of India. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon.
2. PHILIPPOS m Ancient Greek (PHILIP Latinized)
Pronounced: FIL-ip
From the Greek name Philippos which means ‘friend of horses’, composed of the elements philos ‘friend’ and hippos ‘horse’. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon, including Philip II the father of Alexander the Great.
3. AEROPOS m Ancient Greek, Greek Mythology
Male form of Aerope who in Greek mythology was the wife of King Atreus of Mycenae. Aeropos was also the son of Aerope, daughter of Kepheus: ‘Ares, the Tegeans say, mated with Aerope, daughter of Kepheus (king of Tegea), the son of Aleos. She died in giving birth to a child, Aeropos, who clung to his mother even when she was dead, and sucked great abundance of milk from her breasts. Now this took place by the will of Ares.’ (Pausanias 8.44.) The name was borne by two kings of Macedon.
4. ALKETAS m Ancient Greek (ALCAEUS Latinized)
Pronounced: al-SEE-us
Derived from Greek alke meaning ‘strength’. This was the name of a 7th-century BC lyric poet from the island of Lesbos.
5. AMYNTAS m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek amyntor meaning ‘defender’. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
6. ANTIGONOS m Ancient Greek (ANTIGONUS Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nus
Means ‘like the ancestor’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and goneus ‘ancestor’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander died, he took control of most of Asia Minor. He was known as Antigonus ‘Monophthalmos’ (‘the One-Eyed’). Antigonos II (ruled 277-239 BC) was known as ‘Gonatos’ (‘knee, kneel’).
7. ANTIPATROS m Ancient Greek (ANTIPATER Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TI-pa-tur
From the Greek name Antipatros, which meant ‘like the father’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and pater ‘father’. This was the name of an officer of Alexander the Great, who became the regent of Macedon during Alexander’s absence.
8. ARCHELAOS m Ancient Greek (ARCHELAUS Latinized)
Pronounced: ar-kee-LAY-us
Latinized form of the Greek name Archelaos, which meant ‘master of the people’ from arche ‘master’ and laos ‘people’. It was also the name of the 7th Spartan king who came in the throne of Sparti in 886 BC, long before the establishment of the Macedonian state.
9. ARGAIOS m Greek Mythology (ARGUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek argos meaning ‘glistening, shining’. In Greek myth this name belongs to both the man who built the Argo and a man with a hundred eyes. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
10. DEMETRIOS m Ancient Greek (DEMETRIUS Latinized)
Latin form of the Greek name Demetrios, which was derived from the name of the Greek goddess Demeter. Kings of Macedon and the Seleucid kingdom have had this name. Demetrios I (ruled 309-301 BC) was known as ‘Poliorketes’ (the ‘Beseiger’).
11. KARANOS m Ancient Greek (CARANUS Latinized)
Derived from the archaic Greek word ‘koiranos’ or ‘karanon”, meaning ‘ruler’, ‘leader’ or ‘king’. Both words stem from the same archaic Doric root ‘kara’ meaning head, hence leader, royal master. The word ‘koiranos’ already had the meaning of ruler or king in Homer. Karanos is the name of the founder of the Argead dynasty of the Kings of Macedon.
12. KASSANDROS m Greek Mythology (CASSANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: ka-SAN-dros
Possibly means ‘shining upon man’, derived from Greek kekasmai ‘to shine’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). In Greek myth Cassandra was a Trojan princess, the daughter of Priam and Hecuba. She was given the gift of prophecy by Apollo, but when she spurned his advances he cursed her so nobody would believe her prophecies. The name of a king of Macedon.
13. KOINOS m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek koinos meaning ‘usual, common’. An Argead king of Macedon in the 8th century BC.
14. LYSIMACHOS m Ancient Greek (LYSIMACHUS Latinized)
Means ‘a loosening of battle’ from Greek lysis ‘a release, loosening’ and mache ‘battle’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander’s death Lysimachus took control of Thrace.
15. SELEUKOS m Ancient Greek (SELEUCUS Latinized)
Means ‘to be light’, ‘to be white’, derived from the Greek word leukos meaning ‘white, bright’. This was the name of one of Alexander’s generals that claimed most of Asia and founded the Seleucid dynasty after the death of Alexander in Babylon.
16. ARRIDHAIOS m Ancient Greek
Son of Philip II and later king of Macedon. The greek etymology is Ari (= much) + adj Daios (= terrifying). Its full meaning is “too terrifying”. Its Aeolian type is Arribaeos.
17. ORESTES m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: o-RES-teez
Derived from Greek orestais meaning ‘of the mountains’. In Greek myth he was the son of Agamemnon. He killed his mother Clytemnestra after she killed his father. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 399-396 BC).
18. PAUSANIAS m Ancient Greek
King of Macedon in 393 BC. Pausanias was also the name of the Spartan king at the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC, and the name of the Greek traveller, geographer and writer whose most famous work is ‘Description of Greece’, and also the name of the man who assassinated Philip II of Macedon in 336 BC.
19. PERDIKKAS m Ancient Greek (PERDICCAS Latinized)
Derived from Greek perdika meaning ‘partridge’. Perdikkas I is presented as founder of the kingdom of Macedon in Herodotus 8.137. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
20. PERSEUS m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: PUR-see-us
It derives from Greek verb pertho meaning ‘to destroy, conquer’. Its full meaning is the “conqueror”. Perseus was a hero in Greek legend. He killed Medusa, who was so ugly that anyone who gazed upon her was turned to stone, by looking at her in the reflection of his shield and slaying her in her sleep. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 179-168 BC).
21. PTOLEMEOS m Ancient Greek (PTOLEMY Latinized)
Pronounced: TAWL-e-mee
Derived from Greek polemeios meaning ‘aggressive’ or ‘warlike’. Ptolemy was the name of several Greco-Egyptian rulers of Egypt, all descendents of Ptolemy I, one of Alexander the Great’s generals. This was also the name of a Greek astronomer. Ptolemy ‘Keraunos’ (ruled 281-279 BC) is named after the lighting bolt thrown by Zeus.
22. TYRIMMAS m Greek Mythology
Tyrimmas, an Argead king of Macedon and son of Coenus. Also known as Temenus. In Greek mythology, Temenus was the son of Aristomaches and a great-great grandson of Herakles. He became king of Argos. Tyrimmas was also a man from Epirus and father of Evippe, who consorted with Odysseus (Parthenius of Nicaea, Love Romances, 3.1). Its full meaning is “the one who loves cheese”.
QUEENS AND ROYAL FAMILY
23. EURYDIKE f Greek Mythology (EURYDICE Latinized)
Means ‘wide justice’ from Greek eurys ‘wide’ and dike ‘justice’. In Greek myth she was the wife of Orpheus. Her husband tried to rescue her from Hades, but he failed when he disobeyed the condition that he not look back upon her on their way out. Name of the mother of Philip II of Macedon.
24. BERENIKE f Ancient Greek (BERENICE Latinized)
Pronounced: ber-e-NIE-see
Means ‘bringing victory’ from pherein ‘to bring’ and nike ‘victory’. This name was common among the Ptolemy ruling family of Egypt.
25. KLEOPATRA f Ancient Greek (CLEOPATRA Latinized), English
Pronounced: klee-o-PAT-ra
Means ‘glory of the father’ from Greek kleos ‘glory’ combined with patros ‘of the father’. In the Iliad, the name of the wife of Meleager of Aetolia. This was also the name of queens of Egypt from the Ptolemaic royal family, including Cleopatra VII, the mistress of both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. After being defeated by Augustus she committed suicide by allowing herself to be bitten by an asp. Also the name of a bride of Philip II of Macedon.
26. CYNNA f Ancient Greek
Half-sister of Alexander the great. Her name derives from the adj. of doric dialect Cyna (= tough).
27. THESSALONIKI f Ancient Greek
Means ‘victory over the Thessalians’, from the name of the region of Thessaly and niki, meaning ‘victory’. Name of Alexander the Great’s step sister and of the city of Thessaloniki which was named after her in 315 BC.
GENERALS, SOLDIERS, PHILOSOPHERS AND OTHERS
28. PARMENION m ancient Greek
The most famous General of Philip and Alexander the great. Another famous bearer of this name was the olympic winner Parmenion of Mitiline. His name derives from the name Parmenon + the ending -ion used to note descendancy. It means the “descedant of Parmenon”.
29. PEUKESTAS m Ancient Greek
He saved Alexander the Great in India. One of the most known Macedonians. His name derives from Πευκής (= sharp) + the Doric ending -tas. Its full meaning is the “one who is sharp”.
30. ARISTOPHANES m Ancient Greek
Derived from the Greek elements aristos ‘best’ and phanes ‘appearing’. The name of one of Alexander the Great’s personal body guard who was present during the murder of Cleitus. (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’). This was also the name of a 5th-century BC Athenian playwright.
31. KORRAGOS m Ancient Greek
The Macedonian who challenged into a fight the Olympic winner Dioxippos and lost. His name derives from Koira (= army) + ago (= lead). Korragos has the meaning of “the leader of the army”.
32. ARISTON m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek aristos meaning ‘the best’. The name of a Macedonian officer on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book II, 9 and Book III, 11, 14).
33. KLEITUS m Ancient Greek (CLEITUS Latinized)
Means ‘calling forth’ or ‘summoned’ in Greek. A phalanx battalion commander in Alexander the Great’s army at the Battle of Hydaspes. Also the name of Alexander’s nurse’s brother, who severed the arm of the Persian Spithridates at the Battle of the Granicus.
34. HEPHAISTION m Greek Mythology
Derived from Hephaistos (‘Hephaestus’ Latinized) who in Greek mythology was the god of fire and forging and one of the twelve Olympian deities. Hephaistos in Greek denotes a ‘furnace’ or ‘volcano’. Hephaistion was the companion and closest friend of Alexander the Great. He was also known as ‘Philalexandros’ (‘friend of Alexander’).
35. HERAKLEIDES m Ancient Greek (HERACLEIDES Latinized)
Perhaps means ‘key of Hera’ from the name of the goddess Hera combined with Greek kleis ‘key’ or kleidon ‘little key’. The name of two Macedonian soldiers on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 2; Book III, 11 and Book VII, 16).
36. KRATEROS m Ancient Greek (CRATERUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek adj. Κρατερός (= Powerful). This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. A friend of Alexander the Great, he was also known as ‘Philobasileus’ (‘friend of the King’).
37. NEOPTOLEMOS m Greek Mythology (NEOPTOLEMUS Latinized)
Means ‘new war’, derived from Greek neos ‘new’ and polemos ‘war’. In Greek legend this was the name of the son of Achilles, brought into the Trojan War because it was prophesied the Greeks could not win it unless he was present. After the war he was slain by Orestes because of his marriage to Hermione. Neoptolemos was believed to be the ancestor of Alexander the Great on his mother’s (Olympias’) side (Plutarch). The name of two Macedonian soldiers during Alexander’s campaigns (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 6 and Book II, 27).
38. PHILOTAS m Ancient Greek
From Greek philotes meaning ‘friendship’. Son of Parmenion and a commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry.
39. PHILOXENOS m Ancient Greek
Meaning ‘friend of strangers’ derived from Greek philos meaning friend and xenos meaning ‘stranger, foreigner’. The name of a Macedonian soldier on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book III, 6).
40. MENELAOS m Greek Mythology (MENELAUS Latinized)
Means ‘withstanding the people’ from Greek meno ‘to last, to withstand’ and laos ‘the people’. In Greek legend he was a king of Sparta and the husband of Helen. When his wife was taken by Paris, the Greeks besieged the city of Troy in an effort to get her back. After the war Menelaus and Helen settled down to a happy life. Macedonian naval commander during the wars of the Diadochi and brother of Ptolemy Lagos.
41. LAOMEDON m ancient greek
Friend from boyhood of Alexander and later Satrap. His names derives from the greek noun laos (λαός = “people” + medon (μέδω = “the one who governs”)
42. POLYPERCHON Ancient Greek
Macedonian, Son of Simmias His name derives from the greek word ‘Πολύ’ (=much) + σπέρχω (= rush).
43. HEGELOCHOS m (HEGELOCHUS Latinized)
Known as the conspirator. His name derives from the greek verb (ηγέομαι = “walking ahead” + greek noun λόχος = “set up ambush”).
44. POLEMON m ancient Greek
From the house of Andromenes. Brother of Attalos. Means in greek “the one who is fighting in war”.
45. AUTODIKOS m ancient greek
Somatophylax of Philip III. His name in greek means “the one who takes the law into his (own) hands”
46. BALAKROS m ancient Greek
Son of Nicanor. We already know Macedonians usually used a “beta” instead of a “phi” which was used by Atheneans (eg. “belekys” instead of “pelekys”, “balakros” instead of “falakros”). “Falakros” has the meaning of “bald”.
47. NIKANOR (Nικάνωρ m ancient Greek; Latin: Nicanor) means “victor” – from Nike (Νικη) meaning “victory”.
Nicanor was the name of the father of Balakras. He was a distinguished Macedonian during the reign of Phillip II.
Another Nicanor was the son of Parmenion and brother of Philotas. He was a distinguished officer (commander of the Hypaspists) in the service of Alexander the Great. He died of disease in Bactria in 330 BC.
48. LEONNATOS m ancient Greek
One of the somatophylakes of Alexander. His name derives from Leon (= Lion) + the root Nat of noun Nator (= dashing). The full meaning is “Dashing like the lion”.
49. KRITOLAOS m ancient Hellinic
He was a potter from Pella. His name was discovered in amphoras in Pella during 1980-87. His name derives from Κρίτος (= the chosen) + Λαός (= the people). Its full meaning is “the chosen of the people”.
50. ZOILOS m ancient Hellinic
Father of Myleas from Beroia – From zo-e (ΖΩΗ) indicating ‘lively’, ‘vivacious’. Hence the Italian ‘Zoilo’
51. ZEUXIS m ancient Hellinic
Name of a Macedonian commander of Lydia in the time of Antigonos III and also the name of a Painter from Heraclea – from ‘zeugnumi’ = ‘to bind’, ‘join together’
52. LEOCHARIS m ancient Hellinic
Sculptor – Deriving from ‘Leon’ = ‘lion’ and ‘charis’ = ‘grace’. Literally meaning the ‘lion’s grace’.
53. DEINOKRATIS m ancient Hellinic
Helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt.
From ‘deinow’ = ‘to make terrible’ and ‘kratein’ = “to rule”
Obviously indicating a ‘terrible ruler’
54. ADMETOS (Άδμητος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the word a+damaw(damazw) and mean tameless,obstreperous.Damazw mean chasten, prevail
55. ANDROTIMOS (Ανδρότιμος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the words andreios (brave, courageous) and timitis(honest, upright )
56. PEITHON m Ancient Greek
Means “the one who persuades”. It was a common name among Macedonians and the most famous holders of that names were Peithon, son of Sosicles, responsible for the royal pages and Peithon, son of Krateuas, a marshal of Alexander the Great.
57. SOSTRATOS m Ancient Greek
Derives from the Greek words “Σως (=safe) +Στρατος (=army)”. He was son of Amyntas and was executed as a conspirator.
58. DIMNOS m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek verb “δειμαίνω (= i have fear). One of the conspirators.
59. TIMANDROS m Ancient Greek
Meaning “Man’s honour”. It derives from the greek words “Τιμή (=honour) + Άνδρας (=man). One of the commanders of regular Hypaspistes.
60. TLEPOLEMOS ,(τληπόλεμος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “τλήμων (=brave) + πόλεμος (=war)”. In greek mythology Tlepolemos was a son of Heracles. In alexanders era, Tlepolemos was appointed Satrap of Carmania from Alexander the Great.
61. AXIOS (Άξιος) m ancient Greek
Meaning “capable”. His name was found on one inscription along with his patronymic “Άξιος Αντιγόνου Μακεδών”.
62. THEOXENOS (Θεόξενος) ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “θεός (=god) + ξένος (=foreigner).His name appears as a donator of the Apollo temple along with his patronymic and city of origin(Θεόξενος Αισχρίωνος Κασσανδρεύς).
63. MITRON (Μήτρων) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word “Μήτηρ (=Mother)”. Mitron of Macedon appears in a inscription as a donator
64. KLEOCHARIS (Κλεοχάρης) M ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Κλέος (=fame) + “Χάρις (=Grace). Kleocharis, son of Pytheas from Amphipoli was a Macedonian honoured in the city of Eretria at the time of Demetrius son of Antigonus.
65. PREPELAOS (Πρεπέλαος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “πρέπω (=be distinguished) + λαος (=people). He was a general of Kassander.
66. HIPPOLOCHOS (Ιππόλοχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words “Ίππος” (= horse) + “Λόχος”(=set up ambush). Hippolochos was a Macedonian historian (ca. 300 B.C.)
67. ALEXARCHOS (Αλέξαρχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from Greek “Αλέξω” (=defend, protect, help) + “Αρχος ” (= master). Alexarchos was brother of Cassandros.
68. ASCLEPIODOROS (Ασκληπιοδορος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Asclepios (= cut up) + Doro (=Gift). Asclepios was the name of the god of healing and medicine in Greek mythology. Asclepiodoros was a prominent Macedonian, son of Eunikos from Pella. Another Asclepiodoros in Alexander’s army was son of Timandros.
69. KALLINES (Καλλινης) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words kalli + nao (=stream beautifully). He was a Macedonian, officer of companions.
70. PLEISTARHOS (Πλείσταρχος) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Pleistos (=too much) + Arhos ((= master). He was younger brother of Cassander.
71. POLYKLES (Πολυκλής) m ancient Greek
Derives from the words Poli (=city) + Kleos (glory). Macedonian who served as Strategos of Antipater.
72. POLYDAMAS (Πολυδάμας) m ancient Greek
The translation of his name means “the one who subordinates a city”. One Hetairos.
73. APOLLOPHANES (Απολλοφάνης) m ancient greek.
His name derives from the greek verb “απολλυμι” (=to destroy) and φαίνομαι (= appear to be). Apollophanes was a prominent Macedonian who was appointed Satrap of Oreitae.
74. ARCHIAS (Αρχίας) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command). Archias was one of the Macedonian trierarchs in Hydaspes river.
75. ARCHESILAOS (Αρχεσίλαος) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command) + Λαος (= people). Archesilaos was a Macedonian that received the satrapy of Mesopotamia in the settlement of 323.
76. ARETAS (Αρετας) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word Areti (=virtue). He was commander of Sarissoforoi at Gaugamela.
77. KLEANDROS (Κλέανδρος) m ancient Greek
Derives from greek verb Κλέος (=fame) + Ανδρος (=man). He was commander of Archers and was killed in Hallicarnasus in 334 BC.
78. AGESISTRATOS (Αγησίστρατος) m ancient greek
Father of Paramonos, a general of Antigonos Doson. His name derives from verb ηγήσομαι ( = lead in command) + στρατος (= army). “Hgisomai” in Doric dialect is “Agisomai”. Its full meaning is “the one who leads the army”
79. AGERROS (Αγερρος) M ancient Greek
He was father of Andronikos, general of Alexander. His name derives from the verb αγέρρω (= the one who makes gatherings)
80. AVREAS (Αβρέας) m ancient Greek
Officer of Alexander the great. His name derives from the adj. αβρός (=polite)
81. AGATHANOR (Αγαθάνωρ) m ancient Greek
Som of Thrasycles. He was priest of Asklepios for about 5 years. His origin was from Beroia as is attested from an inscription. His name derives from the adj. αγαθός (= virtuous) + ανήρ (= man). The full meaning of his name is “Virtuous man”
82. AGAKLES (Αγακλής) m ancient Greek
He was son of Simmihos and was from Pella. He is known from a resolution of Aetolians. His name derives from the adj. Αγακλεής (= too glorious)
83. AGASIKLES (Αγασικλής) m ancient Greek
Son of Mentor, from Dion of Macedonia. It derives from the verb άγαμαι (= admire) + Κλέος (=fame). Its full meaning is “the one who admires fame”
84. AGGAREOS (Αγγάρεος) m ancient Greek
Son of Dalon from Amphipolis. He is known from an inscription of Amphipolis (S.E.G vol 31. ins. 616) It derives from the noun Αγγαρεία (= news)
85. AGELAS (Αγέλας) m ancient Greek
Son of Alexander. He was born during the mid-5th BCE and was an ambassador of Macedonians during the treaty between Macedonians and Atheneans. This treaty exists in inscription 89.vol1 Fasc.1 Ed.3″Attic inscrip.”
His name was common among Heraclides and Bacchiades. One Agelas was king of Corinth during the first quarter of 5 BCE. His name derives from the verb άγω (= lead) and the noun Λαός (= people or even soldiers (Homeric)). The full meaning is the “one who leads the people/soldiers”.
86. AGIPPOS (Άγιππος) m ancient Greek
He was from Beroia of Macedonia and lived during middle 3rd BCE. He is known from an inscription found in Beroia where his name appears as the witness in a slave-freeing. Another case bearing the name Agippos in the Greek world was the father of Timokratos from Zakynthos. The name Agippos derives from the verb άγω (= lead) + the word ίππος (= Horse). Its full meaning is “the one who leads the horse/calvary”.
87. AGLAIANOS (Αγλαϊάνος) m ancient Greek
He was from Amphipolis of Macedonia (c. 4th BC) and he is known from an inscription S.E.G vol41., insc. 556
His name consists of aglai- from the verb αγλαϊζω (= honour) and the ending -anos.
88. AGNOTHEOS (Αγνόθεος) m ancient Greek
Macedonian, possibly from Pella. His name survived from an inscription found in Pella between 300-250 BCE. (SEG vol46.insc.799)
His name derives from Αγνός ( = pure) + Θεός (=God). The full meaning is “the one who has inside a pure god”
89. ATHENAGORAS (Αθηναγόρας) m ancient Greek
General of Philip V. He was the general who stopped Dardanian invasion in 199 BC. His name derives from the verb αγορά-ομαι (=deliver a speech) + the name Αθηνά (= Athena).
90. PERIANDROS (Περίανδρος) m ancient Greek
Son of the Macedonian historian Marsyas. His name derives from Περί (= too much) + άνηρ (man, brave). Its full meaning is “too brave/man”.
91. LEODISKOS (Λεοντίσκος) m ancient Greek
He was son of Ptolemy A’ and Thais, His name derives from Λέων (= lion) + the ending -iskos (=little). His name’s full etymology is “Little Lion”
92. EPHRANOR (Ευφράνωρ) m ancient Greek
He was General of Perseas. It derives from the verb Ευφραίνω (= delight). Its full meaning is “the one who delights”.
93. DIONYSOPHON m Ancient Greek
It has the meaning “Voice of Dionysos”. The ending -phon is typical among ancient greek names.
MACEDONIAN WOMEN
94. ANTIGONE f ancient Greek
Usage: Greek Mythology
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nee
Means ‘against birth’ from Greek anti ‘against’ and gone ‘birth’. In Greek legend Antigone was the daughter of Oedipus and Jocasta. King Creon of Thebes declared that her slain brother Polynices was to remain unburied, a great dishonour. She disobeyed and gave him a proper burial, and for this she was sealed alive in a cave. Antigone of Pydna was the mistress of Philotas, the son of Parmenion and commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’).
95. VOULOMAGA (Βουλομάγα) f ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Βούλομαι (=desire) + άγαν (=too much)”. Her name is found among donators.
96. ATALANTE (Αταλαντη) f ancient Greek
Her name means in Greek “without talent”. She was daughter of Orontes, and sister of Perdiccas.
97. AGELAEIA (Αγελαεία) f ancient Greek
Wife of Amyntas, from the city of Beroia (S.E.G vol 48. insc. 738)
It derives from the adj. Αγέλα-ος ( = the one who belongs to a herd)
98. ATHENAIS (Αθηναϊς) f ancient Greek
The name was found on an altar of Heracles Kigagidas in Beroia. It derives from the name Athena and the ending -is meaning “small”. Its whole meaning is “little Athena”.
99. STRATONIKE f Ancient Greek (STRATONICE Latinized)
Means ‘victorious army’ from stratos ‘army’ and nike ‘victory’. Sister of King Perdiccas II. “…and Perdiccas afterwards gave his sister Stratonice to Seuthes as he had promised.” (Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, Chapter VIII)
100. THETIMA f Ancient Greek
A name from Pella Katadesmos. It has the meaning “she who honors the gods”; the standard Attic form would be Theotimē.



PS
just remember to eat dinner its almost night at Aimos

bigsnake49
01-05-19, 19:48
:laughing:

According to Edward Stuart Mann, Tyrimmas has survived in Albanian "Trim" (Hero, Brave)

Pleeeaseeeee...talking about crazy extrapolations.

blevins13
01-05-19, 19:48
Nice joke
Did you hear the other joke?

Here another joke from Eupedia
R1a-The Greek branch
Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek


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bigsnake49
01-05-19, 19:54
Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture) vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.


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You are definitely forgetting the Thracians. The Bulgarians and Greek archaeologists have been finding them all over the place. There are about 320 unexplored ones in Western Thrace alone and probably more in Bulgaria.

Yetos
01-05-19, 19:56
Here another joke from Eupedia
R1a-The Greek branch
Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.

https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Do not try to excuse your shelf
you post a link and a work that even you, have not read

LABERIA
01-05-19, 20:18
And it seemed no great maruell that Amurath had bene vanquished, and dis∣comfited by the Albanois, to them who sawe so many warlike youthes, and the strength of those forces that were then with Scanderbeg. Then did it appeare that the ancient noblenesse and valour of that nation was returned into Macedonie: and those olde times long since past and gone, of Alexander and Pyrrhus, did seeme to be renu∣ed and restored againe.

Source: The historie of George Castriot, surnamed Scanderbeg, King of Albanie Containing his famous actes, his noble deedes of armes, and memorable victories against the Turkes, for the faith of Christ. Comprised in twelue bookes: by Iaques de Lauardin, Lord of Plessis Bourrot, a nobleman of France. Newly translated out of French into English by Z.I. Gentleman.Barleti, Marin, ca. 1460-1512 or 13., Jones, Zachary.

blevins13
01-05-19, 20:47
You are definitely forgetting the Thracians. The Bulgarians and Greek archaeologists have been finding them all over the place. There are about 320 unexplored ones in Western Thrace alone and probably more in Bulgaria.

So they are Thracian?? 1500 BC Thracian tumulus in Macedonia? Right?


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blevins13
01-05-19, 20:52
Do not try to excuse your shelf
you post a link and a work that even you, have not read

Which one the Eupedia???


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bigsnake49
02-05-19, 00:50
Albanians have to do a lot with the Greek history as long as both ethnicities descent from paleo/Balkans ethnolinguistic people. It would be normal after all

Not enough loan words between the two languages to be neighbors for at least 3000 years. We have more loan words from the Turkish than Albanian and we were only neighbors and subjects for 4 centuries.

blevins13
02-05-19, 01:33
@ Blevins

Until now you told us nothing,
remember that proto-Cetina is connected with Greeks
and Thracians were also what you claim,
while Illyrians were Celtoids
IN FACT EAST OF OLYMP LIVED THE THRACIANS TRIBE PIEROI OF ORPHEUS, THE NORTHERN MYCENEANS, AND THE HERAKLEIDES which evolute to Makedonians.
SO YOUR OPINION MEANS NOTHING AND IS JUST ANOTHER SPECULATED SPAM-POST JUST FOR IMPRESSIONS
YOU POST US A LINK WHICH YOU HAVE NOIT READ IT EVEN YOU




@ Pirro

FIRST
LEARN TO WRITE CORRECT THE NAME OF EPIROS GREEK KING

SECOND
Alexander's grandma was Illyrian origin, a typical bargain among kings,
But read this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Erigon_Valley
the hate among Makedonians Brygians included and Illyrians was so big.

THIRD
they claim that 3 Makedonians were is up your mind

read the etymolgy of the names


100 MAKEDONIAN NAMES ALL HAVE GREEK ETYMOLOGY

KINGS OF MACEDON AND DIADOCHI
1. ALEXANDROS m Ancient Greek (ALEXANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: al-eg-ZAN-dur
From the Greek name Alexandros, which meant ‘defending men’ from Greek alexein ‘to defend, protect, help’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). Alexander the Great, King of Macedon, is the most famous bearer of this name. In the 4th century BC he built a huge empire out of Greece, Egypt, Persia, and parts of India. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon.
2. PHILIPPOS m Ancient Greek (PHILIP Latinized)
Pronounced: FIL-ip
From the Greek name Philippos which means ‘friend of horses’, composed of the elements philos ‘friend’ and hippos ‘horse’. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon, including Philip II the father of Alexander the Great.
3. AEROPOS m Ancient Greek, Greek Mythology
Male form of Aerope who in Greek mythology was the wife of King Atreus of Mycenae. Aeropos was also the son of Aerope, daughter of Kepheus: ‘Ares, the Tegeans say, mated with Aerope, daughter of Kepheus (king of Tegea), the son of Aleos. She died in giving birth to a child, Aeropos, who clung to his mother even when she was dead, and sucked great abundance of milk from her breasts. Now this took place by the will of Ares.’ (Pausanias 8.44.) The name was borne by two kings of Macedon.
4. ALKETAS m Ancient Greek (ALCAEUS Latinized)
Pronounced: al-SEE-us
Derived from Greek alke meaning ‘strength’. This was the name of a 7th-century BC lyric poet from the island of Lesbos.
5. AMYNTAS m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek amyntor meaning ‘defender’. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
6. ANTIGONOS m Ancient Greek (ANTIGONUS Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nus
Means ‘like the ancestor’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and goneus ‘ancestor’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander died, he took control of most of Asia Minor. He was known as Antigonus ‘Monophthalmos’ (‘the One-Eyed’). Antigonos II (ruled 277-239 BC) was known as ‘Gonatos’ (‘knee, kneel’).
7. ANTIPATROS m Ancient Greek (ANTIPATER Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TI-pa-tur
From the Greek name Antipatros, which meant ‘like the father’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and pater ‘father’. This was the name of an officer of Alexander the Great, who became the regent of Macedon during Alexander’s absence.
8. ARCHELAOS m Ancient Greek (ARCHELAUS Latinized)
Pronounced: ar-kee-LAY-us
Latinized form of the Greek name Archelaos, which meant ‘master of the people’ from arche ‘master’ and laos ‘people’. It was also the name of the 7th Spartan king who came in the throne of Sparti in 886 BC, long before the establishment of the Macedonian state.
9. ARGAIOS m Greek Mythology (ARGUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek argos meaning ‘glistening, shining’. In Greek myth this name belongs to both the man who built the Argo and a man with a hundred eyes. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
10. DEMETRIOS m Ancient Greek (DEMETRIUS Latinized)
Latin form of the Greek name Demetrios, which was derived from the name of the Greek goddess Demeter. Kings of Macedon and the Seleucid kingdom have had this name. Demetrios I (ruled 309-301 BC) was known as ‘Poliorketes’ (the ‘Beseiger’).
11. KARANOS m Ancient Greek (CARANUS Latinized)
Derived from the archaic Greek word ‘koiranos’ or ‘karanon”, meaning ‘ruler’, ‘leader’ or ‘king’. Both words stem from the same archaic Doric root ‘kara’ meaning head, hence leader, royal master. The word ‘koiranos’ already had the meaning of ruler or king in Homer. Karanos is the name of the founder of the Argead dynasty of the Kings of Macedon.
12. KASSANDROS m Greek Mythology (CASSANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: ka-SAN-dros
Possibly means ‘shining upon man’, derived from Greek kekasmai ‘to shine’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). In Greek myth Cassandra was a Trojan princess, the daughter of Priam and Hecuba. She was given the gift of prophecy by Apollo, but when she spurned his advances he cursed her so nobody would believe her prophecies. The name of a king of Macedon.
13. KOINOS m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek koinos meaning ‘usual, common’. An Argead king of Macedon in the 8th century BC.
14. LYSIMACHOS m Ancient Greek (LYSIMACHUS Latinized)
Means ‘a loosening of battle’ from Greek lysis ‘a release, loosening’ and mache ‘battle’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander’s death Lysimachus took control of Thrace.
15. SELEUKOS m Ancient Greek (SELEUCUS Latinized)
Means ‘to be light’, ‘to be white’, derived from the Greek word leukos meaning ‘white, bright’. This was the name of one of Alexander’s generals that claimed most of Asia and founded the Seleucid dynasty after the death of Alexander in Babylon.
16. ARRIDHAIOS m Ancient Greek
Son of Philip II and later king of Macedon. The greek etymology is Ari (= much) + adj Daios (= terrifying). Its full meaning is “too terrifying”. Its Aeolian type is Arribaeos.
17. ORESTES m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: o-RES-teez
Derived from Greek orestais meaning ‘of the mountains’. In Greek myth he was the son of Agamemnon. He killed his mother Clytemnestra after she killed his father. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 399-396 BC).
18. PAUSANIAS m Ancient Greek
King of Macedon in 393 BC. Pausanias was also the name of the Spartan king at the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC, and the name of the Greek traveller, geographer and writer whose most famous work is ‘Description of Greece’, and also the name of the man who assassinated Philip II of Macedon in 336 BC.
19. PERDIKKAS m Ancient Greek (PERDICCAS Latinized)
Derived from Greek perdika meaning ‘partridge’. Perdikkas I is presented as founder of the kingdom of Macedon in Herodotus 8.137. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
20. PERSEUS m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: PUR-see-us
It derives from Greek verb pertho meaning ‘to destroy, conquer’. Its full meaning is the “conqueror”. Perseus was a hero in Greek legend. He killed Medusa, who was so ugly that anyone who gazed upon her was turned to stone, by looking at her in the reflection of his shield and slaying her in her sleep. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 179-168 BC).
21. PTOLEMEOS m Ancient Greek (PTOLEMY Latinized)
Pronounced: TAWL-e-mee
Derived from Greek polemeios meaning ‘aggressive’ or ‘warlike’. Ptolemy was the name of several Greco-Egyptian rulers of Egypt, all descendents of Ptolemy I, one of Alexander the Great’s generals. This was also the name of a Greek astronomer. Ptolemy ‘Keraunos’ (ruled 281-279 BC) is named after the lighting bolt thrown by Zeus.
22. TYRIMMAS m Greek Mythology
Tyrimmas, an Argead king of Macedon and son of Coenus. Also known as Temenus. In Greek mythology, Temenus was the son of Aristomaches and a great-great grandson of Herakles. He became king of Argos. Tyrimmas was also a man from Epirus and father of Evippe, who consorted with Odysseus (Parthenius of Nicaea, Love Romances, 3.1). Its full meaning is “the one who loves cheese”.
QUEENS AND ROYAL FAMILY
23. EURYDIKE f Greek Mythology (EURYDICE Latinized)
Means ‘wide justice’ from Greek eurys ‘wide’ and dike ‘justice’. In Greek myth she was the wife of Orpheus. Her husband tried to rescue her from Hades, but he failed when he disobeyed the condition that he not look back upon her on their way out. Name of the mother of Philip II of Macedon.
24. BERENIKE f Ancient Greek (BERENICE Latinized)
Pronounced: ber-e-NIE-see
Means ‘bringing victory’ from pherein ‘to bring’ and nike ‘victory’. This name was common among the Ptolemy ruling family of Egypt.
25. KLEOPATRA f Ancient Greek (CLEOPATRA Latinized), English
Pronounced: klee-o-PAT-ra
Means ‘glory of the father’ from Greek kleos ‘glory’ combined with patros ‘of the father’. In the Iliad, the name of the wife of Meleager of Aetolia. This was also the name of queens of Egypt from the Ptolemaic royal family, including Cleopatra VII, the mistress of both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. After being defeated by Augustus she committed suicide by allowing herself to be bitten by an asp. Also the name of a bride of Philip II of Macedon.
26. CYNNA f Ancient Greek
Half-sister of Alexander the great. Her name derives from the adj. of doric dialect Cyna (= tough).
27. THESSALONIKI f Ancient Greek
Means ‘victory over the Thessalians’, from the name of the region of Thessaly and niki, meaning ‘victory’. Name of Alexander the Great’s step sister and of the city of Thessaloniki which was named after her in 315 BC.
GENERALS, SOLDIERS, PHILOSOPHERS AND OTHERS
28. PARMENION m ancient Greek
The most famous General of Philip and Alexander the great. Another famous bearer of this name was the olympic winner Parmenion of Mitiline. His name derives from the name Parmenon + the ending -ion used to note descendancy. It means the “descedant of Parmenon”.
29. PEUKESTAS m Ancient Greek
He saved Alexander the Great in India. One of the most known Macedonians. His name derives from Πευκής (= sharp) + the Doric ending -tas. Its full meaning is the “one who is sharp”.
30. ARISTOPHANES m Ancient Greek
Derived from the Greek elements aristos ‘best’ and phanes ‘appearing’. The name of one of Alexander the Great’s personal body guard who was present during the murder of Cleitus. (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’). This was also the name of a 5th-century BC Athenian playwright.
31. KORRAGOS m Ancient Greek
The Macedonian who challenged into a fight the Olympic winner Dioxippos and lost. His name derives from Koira (= army) + ago (= lead). Korragos has the meaning of “the leader of the army”.
32. ARISTON m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek aristos meaning ‘the best’. The name of a Macedonian officer on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book II, 9 and Book III, 11, 14).
33. KLEITUS m Ancient Greek (CLEITUS Latinized)
Means ‘calling forth’ or ‘summoned’ in Greek. A phalanx battalion commander in Alexander the Great’s army at the Battle of Hydaspes. Also the name of Alexander’s nurse’s brother, who severed the arm of the Persian Spithridates at the Battle of the Granicus.
34. HEPHAISTION m Greek Mythology
Derived from Hephaistos (‘Hephaestus’ Latinized) who in Greek mythology was the god of fire and forging and one of the twelve Olympian deities. Hephaistos in Greek denotes a ‘furnace’ or ‘volcano’. Hephaistion was the companion and closest friend of Alexander the Great. He was also known as ‘Philalexandros’ (‘friend of Alexander’).
35. HERAKLEIDES m Ancient Greek (HERACLEIDES Latinized)
Perhaps means ‘key of Hera’ from the name of the goddess Hera combined with Greek kleis ‘key’ or kleidon ‘little key’. The name of two Macedonian soldiers on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 2; Book III, 11 and Book VII, 16).
36. KRATEROS m Ancient Greek (CRATERUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek adj. Κρατερός (= Powerful). This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. A friend of Alexander the Great, he was also known as ‘Philobasileus’ (‘friend of the King’).
37. NEOPTOLEMOS m Greek Mythology (NEOPTOLEMUS Latinized)
Means ‘new war’, derived from Greek neos ‘new’ and polemos ‘war’. In Greek legend this was the name of the son of Achilles, brought into the Trojan War because it was prophesied the Greeks could not win it unless he was present. After the war he was slain by Orestes because of his marriage to Hermione. Neoptolemos was believed to be the ancestor of Alexander the Great on his mother’s (Olympias’) side (Plutarch). The name of two Macedonian soldiers during Alexander’s campaigns (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 6 and Book II, 27).
38. PHILOTAS m Ancient Greek
From Greek philotes meaning ‘friendship’. Son of Parmenion and a commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry.
39. PHILOXENOS m Ancient Greek
Meaning ‘friend of strangers’ derived from Greek philos meaning friend and xenos meaning ‘stranger, foreigner’. The name of a Macedonian soldier on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book III, 6).
40. MENELAOS m Greek Mythology (MENELAUS Latinized)
Means ‘withstanding the people’ from Greek meno ‘to last, to withstand’ and laos ‘the people’. In Greek legend he was a king of Sparta and the husband of Helen. When his wife was taken by Paris, the Greeks besieged the city of Troy in an effort to get her back. After the war Menelaus and Helen settled down to a happy life. Macedonian naval commander during the wars of the Diadochi and brother of Ptolemy Lagos.
41. LAOMEDON m ancient greek
Friend from boyhood of Alexander and later Satrap. His names derives from the greek noun laos (λαός = “people” + medon (μέδω = “the one who governs”)
42. POLYPERCHON Ancient Greek
Macedonian, Son of Simmias His name derives from the greek word ‘Πολύ’ (=much) + σπέρχω (= rush).
43. HEGELOCHOS m (HEGELOCHUS Latinized)
Known as the conspirator. His name derives from the greek verb (ηγέομαι = “walking ahead” + greek noun λόχος = “set up ambush”).
44. POLEMON m ancient Greek
From the house of Andromenes. Brother of Attalos. Means in greek “the one who is fighting in war”.
45. AUTODIKOS m ancient greek
Somatophylax of Philip III. His name in greek means “the one who takes the law into his (own) hands”
46. BALAKROS m ancient Greek
Son of Nicanor. We already know Macedonians usually used a “beta” instead of a “phi” which was used by Atheneans (eg. “belekys” instead of “pelekys”, “balakros” instead of “falakros”). “Falakros” has the meaning of “bald”.
47. NIKANOR (Nικάνωρ m ancient Greek; Latin: Nicanor) means “victor” – from Nike (Νικη) meaning “victory”.
Nicanor was the name of the father of Balakras. He was a distinguished Macedonian during the reign of Phillip II.
Another Nicanor was the son of Parmenion and brother of Philotas. He was a distinguished officer (commander of the Hypaspists) in the service of Alexander the Great. He died of disease in Bactria in 330 BC.
48. LEONNATOS m ancient Greek
One of the somatophylakes of Alexander. His name derives from Leon (= Lion) + the root Nat of noun Nator (= dashing). The full meaning is “Dashing like the lion”.
49. KRITOLAOS m ancient Hellinic
He was a potter from Pella. His name was discovered in amphoras in Pella during 1980-87. His name derives from Κρίτος (= the chosen) + Λαός (= the people). Its full meaning is “the chosen of the people”.
50. ZOILOS m ancient Hellinic
Father of Myleas from Beroia – From zo-e (ΖΩΗ) indicating ‘lively’, ‘vivacious’. Hence the Italian ‘Zoilo’
51. ZEUXIS m ancient Hellinic
Name of a Macedonian commander of Lydia in the time of Antigonos III and also the name of a Painter from Heraclea – from ‘zeugnumi’ = ‘to bind’, ‘join together’
52. LEOCHARIS m ancient Hellinic
Sculptor – Deriving from ‘Leon’ = ‘lion’ and ‘charis’ = ‘grace’. Literally meaning the ‘lion’s grace’.
53. DEINOKRATIS m ancient Hellinic
Helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt.
From ‘deinow’ = ‘to make terrible’ and ‘kratein’ = “to rule”
Obviously indicating a ‘terrible ruler’
54. ADMETOS (Άδμητος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the word a+damaw(damazw) and mean tameless,obstreperous.Damazw mean chasten, prevail
55. ANDROTIMOS (Ανδρότιμος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the words andreios (brave, courageous) and timitis(honest, upright )
56. PEITHON m Ancient Greek
Means “the one who persuades”. It was a common name among Macedonians and the most famous holders of that names were Peithon, son of Sosicles, responsible for the royal pages and Peithon, son of Krateuas, a marshal of Alexander the Great.
57. SOSTRATOS m Ancient Greek
Derives from the Greek words “Σως (=safe) +Στρατος (=army)”. He was son of Amyntas and was executed as a conspirator.
58. DIMNOS m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek verb “δειμαίνω (= i have fear). One of the conspirators.
59. TIMANDROS m Ancient Greek
Meaning “Man’s honour”. It derives from the greek words “Τιμή (=honour) + Άνδρας (=man). One of the commanders of regular Hypaspistes.
60. TLEPOLEMOS ,(τληπόλεμος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “τλήμων (=brave) + πόλεμος (=war)”. In greek mythology Tlepolemos was a son of Heracles. In alexanders era, Tlepolemos was appointed Satrap of Carmania from Alexander the Great.
61. AXIOS (Άξιος) m ancient Greek
Meaning “capable”. His name was found on one inscription along with his patronymic “Άξιος Αντιγόνου Μακεδών”.
62. THEOXENOS (Θεόξενος) ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “θεός (=god) + ξένος (=foreigner).His name appears as a donator of the Apollo temple along with his patronymic and city of origin(Θεόξενος Αισχρίωνος Κασσανδρεύς).
63. MITRON (Μήτρων) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word “Μήτηρ (=Mother)”. Mitron of Macedon appears in a inscription as a donator
64. KLEOCHARIS (Κλεοχάρης) M ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Κλέος (=fame) + “Χάρις (=Grace). Kleocharis, son of Pytheas from Amphipoli was a Macedonian honoured in the city of Eretria at the time of Demetrius son of Antigonus.
65. PREPELAOS (Πρεπέλαος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “πρέπω (=be distinguished) + λαος (=people). He was a general of Kassander.
66. HIPPOLOCHOS (Ιππόλοχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words “Ίππος” (= horse) + “Λόχος”(=set up ambush). Hippolochos was a Macedonian historian (ca. 300 B.C.)
67. ALEXARCHOS (Αλέξαρχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from Greek “Αλέξω” (=defend, protect, help) + “Αρχος ” (= master). Alexarchos was brother of Cassandros.
68. ASCLEPIODOROS (Ασκληπιοδορος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Asclepios (= cut up) + Doro (=Gift). Asclepios was the name of the god of healing and medicine in Greek mythology. Asclepiodoros was a prominent Macedonian, son of Eunikos from Pella. Another Asclepiodoros in Alexander’s army was son of Timandros.
69. KALLINES (Καλλινης) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words kalli + nao (=stream beautifully). He was a Macedonian, officer of companions.
70. PLEISTARHOS (Πλείσταρχος) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Pleistos (=too much) + Arhos ((= master). He was younger brother of Cassander.
71. POLYKLES (Πολυκλής) m ancient Greek
Derives from the words Poli (=city) + Kleos (glory). Macedonian who served as Strategos of Antipater.
72. POLYDAMAS (Πολυδάμας) m ancient Greek
The translation of his name means “the one who subordinates a city”. One Hetairos.
73. APOLLOPHANES (Απολλοφάνης) m ancient greek.
His name derives from the greek verb “απολλυμι” (=to destroy) and φαίνομαι (= appear to be). Apollophanes was a prominent Macedonian who was appointed Satrap of Oreitae.
74. ARCHIAS (Αρχίας) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command). Archias was one of the Macedonian trierarchs in Hydaspes river.
75. ARCHESILAOS (Αρχεσίλαος) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command) + Λαος (= people). Archesilaos was a Macedonian that received the satrapy of Mesopotamia in the settlement of 323.
76. ARETAS (Αρετας) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word Areti (=virtue). He was commander of Sarissoforoi at Gaugamela.
77. KLEANDROS (Κλέανδρος) m ancient Greek
Derives from greek verb Κλέος (=fame) + Ανδρος (=man). He was commander of Archers and was killed in Hallicarnasus in 334 BC.
78. AGESISTRATOS (Αγησίστρατος) m ancient greek
Father of Paramonos, a general of Antigonos Doson. His name derives from verb ηγήσομαι ( = lead in command) + στρατος (= army). “Hgisomai” in Doric dialect is “Agisomai”. Its full meaning is “the one who leads the army”
79. AGERROS (Αγερρος) M ancient Greek
He was father of Andronikos, general of Alexander. His name derives from the verb αγέρρω (= the one who makes gatherings)
80. AVREAS (Αβρέας) m ancient Greek
Officer of Alexander the great. His name derives from the adj. αβρός (=polite)
81. AGATHANOR (Αγαθάνωρ) m ancient Greek
Som of Thrasycles. He was priest of Asklepios for about 5 years. His origin was from Beroia as is attested from an inscription. His name derives from the adj. αγαθός (= virtuous) + ανήρ (= man). The full meaning of his name is “Virtuous man”
82. AGAKLES (Αγακλής) m ancient Greek
He was son of Simmihos and was from Pella. He is known from a resolution of Aetolians. His name derives from the adj. Αγακλεής (= too glorious)
83. AGASIKLES (Αγασικλής) m ancient Greek
Son of Mentor, from Dion of Macedonia. It derives from the verb άγαμαι (= admire) + Κλέος (=fame). Its full meaning is “the one who admires fame”
84. AGGAREOS (Αγγάρεος) m ancient Greek
Son of Dalon from Amphipolis. He is known from an inscription of Amphipolis (S.E.G vol 31. ins. 616) It derives from the noun Αγγαρεία (= news)
85. AGELAS (Αγέλας) m ancient Greek
Son of Alexander. He was born during the mid-5th BCE and was an ambassador of Macedonians during the treaty between Macedonians and Atheneans. This treaty exists in inscription 89.vol1 Fasc.1 Ed.3″Attic inscrip.”
His name was common among Heraclides and Bacchiades. One Agelas was king of Corinth during the first quarter of 5 BCE. His name derives from the verb άγω (= lead) and the noun Λαός (= people or even soldiers (Homeric)). The full meaning is the “one who leads the people/soldiers”.
86. AGIPPOS (Άγιππος) m ancient Greek
He was from Beroia of Macedonia and lived during middle 3rd BCE. He is known from an inscription found in Beroia where his name appears as the witness in a slave-freeing. Another case bearing the name Agippos in the Greek world was the father of Timokratos from Zakynthos. The name Agippos derives from the verb άγω (= lead) + the word ίππος (= Horse). Its full meaning is “the one who leads the horse/calvary”.
87. AGLAIANOS (Αγλαϊάνος) m ancient Greek
He was from Amphipolis of Macedonia (c. 4th BC) and he is known from an inscription S.E.G vol41., insc. 556
His name consists of aglai- from the verb αγλαϊζω (= honour) and the ending -anos.
88. AGNOTHEOS (Αγνόθεος) m ancient Greek
Macedonian, possibly from Pella. His name survived from an inscription found in Pella between 300-250 BCE. (SEG vol46.insc.799)
His name derives from Αγνός ( = pure) + Θεός (=God). The full meaning is “the one who has inside a pure god”
89. ATHENAGORAS (Αθηναγόρας) m ancient Greek
General of Philip V. He was the general who stopped Dardanian invasion in 199 BC. His name derives from the verb αγορά-ομαι (=deliver a speech) + the name Αθηνά (= Athena).
90. PERIANDROS (Περίανδρος) m ancient Greek
Son of the Macedonian historian Marsyas. His name derives from Περί (= too much) + άνηρ (man, brave). Its full meaning is “too brave/man”.
91. LEODISKOS (Λεοντίσκος) m ancient Greek
He was son of Ptolemy A’ and Thais, His name derives from Λέων (= lion) + the ending -iskos (=little). His name’s full etymology is “Little Lion”
92. EPHRANOR (Ευφράνωρ) m ancient Greek
He was General of Perseas. It derives from the verb Ευφραίνω (= delight). Its full meaning is “the one who delights”.
93. DIONYSOPHON m Ancient Greek
It has the meaning “Voice of Dionysos”. The ending -phon is typical among ancient greek names.
MACEDONIAN WOMEN
94. ANTIGONE f ancient Greek
Usage: Greek Mythology
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nee
Means ‘against birth’ from Greek anti ‘against’ and gone ‘birth’. In Greek legend Antigone was the daughter of Oedipus and Jocasta. King Creon of Thebes declared that her slain brother Polynices was to remain unburied, a great dishonour. She disobeyed and gave him a proper burial, and for this she was sealed alive in a cave. Antigone of Pydna was the mistress of Philotas, the son of Parmenion and commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’).
95. VOULOMAGA (Βουλομάγα) f ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Βούλομαι (=desire) + άγαν (=too much)”. Her name is found among donators.
96. ATALANTE (Αταλαντη) f ancient Greek
Her name means in Greek “without talent”. She was daughter of Orontes, and sister of Perdiccas.
97. AGELAEIA (Αγελαεία) f ancient Greek
Wife of Amyntas, from the city of Beroia (S.E.G vol 48. insc. 738)
It derives from the adj. Αγέλα-ος ( = the one who belongs to a herd)
98. ATHENAIS (Αθηναϊς) f ancient Greek
The name was found on an altar of Heracles Kigagidas in Beroia. It derives from the name Athena and the ending -is meaning “small”. Its whole meaning is “little Athena”.
99. STRATONIKE f Ancient Greek (STRATONICE Latinized)
Means ‘victorious army’ from stratos ‘army’ and nike ‘victory’. Sister of King Perdiccas II. “…and Perdiccas afterwards gave his sister Stratonice to Seuthes as he had promised.” (Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, Chapter VIII)
100. THETIMA f Ancient Greek
A name from Pella Katadesmos. It has the meaning “she who honors the gods”; the standard Attic form would be Theotimē.



PS
just remember to eat dinner its almost night at Aimos

Cetina related with Mycenaean civilization come on this is a joke not Seima -Turbino. Considering also lack of R1b so far and minimal step for sure Seima - Turbino.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

blevins13
02-05-19, 01:55
@ Blevins

Until now you told us nothing,
remember that proto-Cetina is connected with Greeks
and Thracians were also what you claim,
while Illyrians were Celtoids
IN FACT EAST OF OLYMP LIVED THE THRACIANS TRIBE PIEROI OF ORPHEUS, THE NORTHERN MYCENEANS, AND THE HERAKLEIDES which evolute to Makedonians.
SO YOUR OPINION MEANS NOTHING AND IS JUST ANOTHER SPECULATED SPAM-POST JUST FOR IMPRESSIONS
YOU POST US A LINK WHICH YOU HAVE NOIT READ IT EVEN YOU




@ Pirro

FIRST
LEARN TO WRITE CORRECT THE NAME OF EPIROS GREEK KING

SECOND
Alexander's grandma was Illyrian origin, a typical bargain among kings,
But read this
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Erigon_Valley
the hate among Makedonians Brygians included and Illyrians was so big.

THIRD
they claim that 3 Makedonians were is up your mind

read the etymolgy of the names


100 MAKEDONIAN NAMES ALL HAVE GREEK ETYMOLOGY

KINGS OF MACEDON AND DIADOCHI
1. ALEXANDROS m Ancient Greek (ALEXANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: al-eg-ZAN-dur
From the Greek name Alexandros, which meant ‘defending men’ from Greek alexein ‘to defend, protect, help’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). Alexander the Great, King of Macedon, is the most famous bearer of this name. In the 4th century BC he built a huge empire out of Greece, Egypt, Persia, and parts of India. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon.
2. PHILIPPOS m Ancient Greek (PHILIP Latinized)
Pronounced: FIL-ip
From the Greek name Philippos which means ‘friend of horses’, composed of the elements philos ‘friend’ and hippos ‘horse’. The name was borne by five kings of Macedon, including Philip II the father of Alexander the Great.
3. AEROPOS m Ancient Greek, Greek Mythology
Male form of Aerope who in Greek mythology was the wife of King Atreus of Mycenae. Aeropos was also the son of Aerope, daughter of Kepheus: ‘Ares, the Tegeans say, mated with Aerope, daughter of Kepheus (king of Tegea), the son of Aleos. She died in giving birth to a child, Aeropos, who clung to his mother even when she was dead, and sucked great abundance of milk from her breasts. Now this took place by the will of Ares.’ (Pausanias 8.44.) The name was borne by two kings of Macedon.
4. ALKETAS m Ancient Greek (ALCAEUS Latinized)
Pronounced: al-SEE-us
Derived from Greek alke meaning ‘strength’. This was the name of a 7th-century BC lyric poet from the island of Lesbos.
5. AMYNTAS m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek amyntor meaning ‘defender’. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
6. ANTIGONOS m Ancient Greek (ANTIGONUS Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nus
Means ‘like the ancestor’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and goneus ‘ancestor’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander died, he took control of most of Asia Minor. He was known as Antigonus ‘Monophthalmos’ (‘the One-Eyed’). Antigonos II (ruled 277-239 BC) was known as ‘Gonatos’ (‘knee, kneel’).
7. ANTIPATROS m Ancient Greek (ANTIPATER Latinized)
Pronounced: an-TI-pa-tur
From the Greek name Antipatros, which meant ‘like the father’ from Greek anti ‘like’ and pater ‘father’. This was the name of an officer of Alexander the Great, who became the regent of Macedon during Alexander’s absence.
8. ARCHELAOS m Ancient Greek (ARCHELAUS Latinized)
Pronounced: ar-kee-LAY-us
Latinized form of the Greek name Archelaos, which meant ‘master of the people’ from arche ‘master’ and laos ‘people’. It was also the name of the 7th Spartan king who came in the throne of Sparti in 886 BC, long before the establishment of the Macedonian state.
9. ARGAIOS m Greek Mythology (ARGUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek argos meaning ‘glistening, shining’. In Greek myth this name belongs to both the man who built the Argo and a man with a hundred eyes. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
10. DEMETRIOS m Ancient Greek (DEMETRIUS Latinized)
Latin form of the Greek name Demetrios, which was derived from the name of the Greek goddess Demeter. Kings of Macedon and the Seleucid kingdom have had this name. Demetrios I (ruled 309-301 BC) was known as ‘Poliorketes’ (the ‘Beseiger’).
11. KARANOS m Ancient Greek (CARANUS Latinized)
Derived from the archaic Greek word ‘koiranos’ or ‘karanon”, meaning ‘ruler’, ‘leader’ or ‘king’. Both words stem from the same archaic Doric root ‘kara’ meaning head, hence leader, royal master. The word ‘koiranos’ already had the meaning of ruler or king in Homer. Karanos is the name of the founder of the Argead dynasty of the Kings of Macedon.
12. KASSANDROS m Greek Mythology (CASSANDER Latinized)
Pronounced: ka-SAN-dros
Possibly means ‘shining upon man’, derived from Greek kekasmai ‘to shine’ and aner ‘man’ (genitive andros). In Greek myth Cassandra was a Trojan princess, the daughter of Priam and Hecuba. She was given the gift of prophecy by Apollo, but when she spurned his advances he cursed her so nobody would believe her prophecies. The name of a king of Macedon.
13. KOINOS m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek koinos meaning ‘usual, common’. An Argead king of Macedon in the 8th century BC.
14. LYSIMACHOS m Ancient Greek (LYSIMACHUS Latinized)
Means ‘a loosening of battle’ from Greek lysis ‘a release, loosening’ and mache ‘battle’. This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. After Alexander’s death Lysimachus took control of Thrace.
15. SELEUKOS m Ancient Greek (SELEUCUS Latinized)
Means ‘to be light’, ‘to be white’, derived from the Greek word leukos meaning ‘white, bright’. This was the name of one of Alexander’s generals that claimed most of Asia and founded the Seleucid dynasty after the death of Alexander in Babylon.
16. ARRIDHAIOS m Ancient Greek
Son of Philip II and later king of Macedon. The greek etymology is Ari (= much) + adj Daios (= terrifying). Its full meaning is “too terrifying”. Its Aeolian type is Arribaeos.
17. ORESTES m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: o-RES-teez
Derived from Greek orestais meaning ‘of the mountains’. In Greek myth he was the son of Agamemnon. He killed his mother Clytemnestra after she killed his father. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 399-396 BC).
18. PAUSANIAS m Ancient Greek
King of Macedon in 393 BC. Pausanias was also the name of the Spartan king at the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC, and the name of the Greek traveller, geographer and writer whose most famous work is ‘Description of Greece’, and also the name of the man who assassinated Philip II of Macedon in 336 BC.
19. PERDIKKAS m Ancient Greek (PERDICCAS Latinized)
Derived from Greek perdika meaning ‘partridge’. Perdikkas I is presented as founder of the kingdom of Macedon in Herodotus 8.137. The name was borne by three kings of Macedon.
20. PERSEUS m Greek Mythology
Pronounced: PUR-see-us
It derives from Greek verb pertho meaning ‘to destroy, conquer’. Its full meaning is the “conqueror”. Perseus was a hero in Greek legend. He killed Medusa, who was so ugly that anyone who gazed upon her was turned to stone, by looking at her in the reflection of his shield and slaying her in her sleep. The name of a king of Macedon (ruled 179-168 BC).
21. PTOLEMEOS m Ancient Greek (PTOLEMY Latinized)
Pronounced: TAWL-e-mee
Derived from Greek polemeios meaning ‘aggressive’ or ‘warlike’. Ptolemy was the name of several Greco-Egyptian rulers of Egypt, all descendents of Ptolemy I, one of Alexander the Great’s generals. This was also the name of a Greek astronomer. Ptolemy ‘Keraunos’ (ruled 281-279 BC) is named after the lighting bolt thrown by Zeus.
22. TYRIMMAS m Greek Mythology
Tyrimmas, an Argead king of Macedon and son of Coenus. Also known as Temenus. In Greek mythology, Temenus was the son of Aristomaches and a great-great grandson of Herakles. He became king of Argos. Tyrimmas was also a man from Epirus and father of Evippe, who consorted with Odysseus (Parthenius of Nicaea, Love Romances, 3.1). Its full meaning is “the one who loves cheese”.
QUEENS AND ROYAL FAMILY
23. EURYDIKE f Greek Mythology (EURYDICE Latinized)
Means ‘wide justice’ from Greek eurys ‘wide’ and dike ‘justice’. In Greek myth she was the wife of Orpheus. Her husband tried to rescue her from Hades, but he failed when he disobeyed the condition that he not look back upon her on their way out. Name of the mother of Philip II of Macedon.
24. BERENIKE f Ancient Greek (BERENICE Latinized)
Pronounced: ber-e-NIE-see
Means ‘bringing victory’ from pherein ‘to bring’ and nike ‘victory’. This name was common among the Ptolemy ruling family of Egypt.
25. KLEOPATRA f Ancient Greek (CLEOPATRA Latinized), English
Pronounced: klee-o-PAT-ra
Means ‘glory of the father’ from Greek kleos ‘glory’ combined with patros ‘of the father’. In the Iliad, the name of the wife of Meleager of Aetolia. This was also the name of queens of Egypt from the Ptolemaic royal family, including Cleopatra VII, the mistress of both Julius Caesar and Mark Antony. After being defeated by Augustus she committed suicide by allowing herself to be bitten by an asp. Also the name of a bride of Philip II of Macedon.
26. CYNNA f Ancient Greek
Half-sister of Alexander the great. Her name derives from the adj. of doric dialect Cyna (= tough).
27. THESSALONIKI f Ancient Greek
Means ‘victory over the Thessalians’, from the name of the region of Thessaly and niki, meaning ‘victory’. Name of Alexander the Great’s step sister and of the city of Thessaloniki which was named after her in 315 BC.
GENERALS, SOLDIERS, PHILOSOPHERS AND OTHERS
28. PARMENION m ancient Greek
The most famous General of Philip and Alexander the great. Another famous bearer of this name was the olympic winner Parmenion of Mitiline. His name derives from the name Parmenon + the ending -ion used to note descendancy. It means the “descedant of Parmenon”.
29. PEUKESTAS m Ancient Greek
He saved Alexander the Great in India. One of the most known Macedonians. His name derives from Πευκής (= sharp) + the Doric ending -tas. Its full meaning is the “one who is sharp”.
30. ARISTOPHANES m Ancient Greek
Derived from the Greek elements aristos ‘best’ and phanes ‘appearing’. The name of one of Alexander the Great’s personal body guard who was present during the murder of Cleitus. (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’). This was also the name of a 5th-century BC Athenian playwright.
31. KORRAGOS m Ancient Greek
The Macedonian who challenged into a fight the Olympic winner Dioxippos and lost. His name derives from Koira (= army) + ago (= lead). Korragos has the meaning of “the leader of the army”.
32. ARISTON m Ancient Greek
Derived from Greek aristos meaning ‘the best’. The name of a Macedonian officer on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book II, 9 and Book III, 11, 14).
33. KLEITUS m Ancient Greek (CLEITUS Latinized)
Means ‘calling forth’ or ‘summoned’ in Greek. A phalanx battalion commander in Alexander the Great’s army at the Battle of Hydaspes. Also the name of Alexander’s nurse’s brother, who severed the arm of the Persian Spithridates at the Battle of the Granicus.
34. HEPHAISTION m Greek Mythology
Derived from Hephaistos (‘Hephaestus’ Latinized) who in Greek mythology was the god of fire and forging and one of the twelve Olympian deities. Hephaistos in Greek denotes a ‘furnace’ or ‘volcano’. Hephaistion was the companion and closest friend of Alexander the Great. He was also known as ‘Philalexandros’ (‘friend of Alexander’).
35. HERAKLEIDES m Ancient Greek (HERACLEIDES Latinized)
Perhaps means ‘key of Hera’ from the name of the goddess Hera combined with Greek kleis ‘key’ or kleidon ‘little key’. The name of two Macedonian soldiers on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 2; Book III, 11 and Book VII, 16).
36. KRATEROS m Ancient Greek (CRATERUS Latinized)
Derived from Greek adj. Κρατερός (= Powerful). This was the name of one of Alexander the Great’s generals. A friend of Alexander the Great, he was also known as ‘Philobasileus’ (‘friend of the King’).
37. NEOPTOLEMOS m Greek Mythology (NEOPTOLEMUS Latinized)
Means ‘new war’, derived from Greek neos ‘new’ and polemos ‘war’. In Greek legend this was the name of the son of Achilles, brought into the Trojan War because it was prophesied the Greeks could not win it unless he was present. After the war he was slain by Orestes because of his marriage to Hermione. Neoptolemos was believed to be the ancestor of Alexander the Great on his mother’s (Olympias’) side (Plutarch). The name of two Macedonian soldiers during Alexander’s campaigns (Arrian, Anabasis, Book I, 6 and Book II, 27).
38. PHILOTAS m Ancient Greek
From Greek philotes meaning ‘friendship’. Son of Parmenion and a commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry.
39. PHILOXENOS m Ancient Greek
Meaning ‘friend of strangers’ derived from Greek philos meaning friend and xenos meaning ‘stranger, foreigner’. The name of a Macedonian soldier on campaign with Alexander the Great (Arrian, Anabasis, Book III, 6).
40. MENELAOS m Greek Mythology (MENELAUS Latinized)
Means ‘withstanding the people’ from Greek meno ‘to last, to withstand’ and laos ‘the people’. In Greek legend he was a king of Sparta and the husband of Helen. When his wife was taken by Paris, the Greeks besieged the city of Troy in an effort to get her back. After the war Menelaus and Helen settled down to a happy life. Macedonian naval commander during the wars of the Diadochi and brother of Ptolemy Lagos.
41. LAOMEDON m ancient greek
Friend from boyhood of Alexander and later Satrap. His names derives from the greek noun laos (λαός = “people” + medon (μέδω = “the one who governs”)
42. POLYPERCHON Ancient Greek
Macedonian, Son of Simmias His name derives from the greek word ‘Πολύ’ (=much) + σπέρχω (= rush).
43. HEGELOCHOS m (HEGELOCHUS Latinized)
Known as the conspirator. His name derives from the greek verb (ηγέομαι = “walking ahead” + greek noun λόχος = “set up ambush”).
44. POLEMON m ancient Greek
From the house of Andromenes. Brother of Attalos. Means in greek “the one who is fighting in war”.
45. AUTODIKOS m ancient greek
Somatophylax of Philip III. His name in greek means “the one who takes the law into his (own) hands”
46. BALAKROS m ancient Greek
Son of Nicanor. We already know Macedonians usually used a “beta” instead of a “phi” which was used by Atheneans (eg. “belekys” instead of “pelekys”, “balakros” instead of “falakros”). “Falakros” has the meaning of “bald”.
47. NIKANOR (Nικάνωρ m ancient Greek; Latin: Nicanor) means “victor” – from Nike (Νικη) meaning “victory”.
Nicanor was the name of the father of Balakras. He was a distinguished Macedonian during the reign of Phillip II.
Another Nicanor was the son of Parmenion and brother of Philotas. He was a distinguished officer (commander of the Hypaspists) in the service of Alexander the Great. He died of disease in Bactria in 330 BC.
48. LEONNATOS m ancient Greek
One of the somatophylakes of Alexander. His name derives from Leon (= Lion) + the root Nat of noun Nator (= dashing). The full meaning is “Dashing like the lion”.
49. KRITOLAOS m ancient Hellinic
He was a potter from Pella. His name was discovered in amphoras in Pella during 1980-87. His name derives from Κρίτος (= the chosen) + Λαός (= the people). Its full meaning is “the chosen of the people”.
50. ZOILOS m ancient Hellinic
Father of Myleas from Beroia – From zo-e (ΖΩΗ) indicating ‘lively’, ‘vivacious’. Hence the Italian ‘Zoilo’
51. ZEUXIS m ancient Hellinic
Name of a Macedonian commander of Lydia in the time of Antigonos III and also the name of a Painter from Heraclea – from ‘zeugnumi’ = ‘to bind’, ‘join together’
52. LEOCHARIS m ancient Hellinic
Sculptor – Deriving from ‘Leon’ = ‘lion’ and ‘charis’ = ‘grace’. Literally meaning the ‘lion’s grace’.
53. DEINOKRATIS m ancient Hellinic
Helped Alexander to create Alexandria in Egypt.
From ‘deinow’ = ‘to make terrible’ and ‘kratein’ = “to rule”
Obviously indicating a ‘terrible ruler’
54. ADMETOS (Άδμητος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the word a+damaw(damazw) and mean tameless,obstreperous.Damazw mean chasten, prevail
55. ANDROTIMOS (Ανδρότιμος) m Ancient Greek
derive from the words andreios (brave, courageous) and timitis(honest, upright )
56. PEITHON m Ancient Greek
Means “the one who persuades”. It was a common name among Macedonians and the most famous holders of that names were Peithon, son of Sosicles, responsible for the royal pages and Peithon, son of Krateuas, a marshal of Alexander the Great.
57. SOSTRATOS m Ancient Greek
Derives from the Greek words “Σως (=safe) +Στρατος (=army)”. He was son of Amyntas and was executed as a conspirator.
58. DIMNOS m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek verb “δειμαίνω (= i have fear). One of the conspirators.
59. TIMANDROS m Ancient Greek
Meaning “Man’s honour”. It derives from the greek words “Τιμή (=honour) + Άνδρας (=man). One of the commanders of regular Hypaspistes.
60. TLEPOLEMOS ,(τληπόλεμος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “τλήμων (=brave) + πόλεμος (=war)”. In greek mythology Tlepolemos was a son of Heracles. In alexanders era, Tlepolemos was appointed Satrap of Carmania from Alexander the Great.
61. AXIOS (Άξιος) m ancient Greek
Meaning “capable”. His name was found on one inscription along with his patronymic “Άξιος Αντιγόνου Μακεδών”.
62. THEOXENOS (Θεόξενος) ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “θεός (=god) + ξένος (=foreigner).His name appears as a donator of the Apollo temple along with his patronymic and city of origin(Θεόξενος Αισχρίωνος Κασσανδρεύς).
63. MITRON (Μήτρων) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word “Μήτηρ (=Mother)”. Mitron of Macedon appears in a inscription as a donator
64. KLEOCHARIS (Κλεοχάρης) M ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Κλέος (=fame) + “Χάρις (=Grace). Kleocharis, son of Pytheas from Amphipoli was a Macedonian honoured in the city of Eretria at the time of Demetrius son of Antigonus.
65. PREPELAOS (Πρεπέλαος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from greek words “πρέπω (=be distinguished) + λαος (=people). He was a general of Kassander.
66. HIPPOLOCHOS (Ιππόλοχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words “Ίππος” (= horse) + “Λόχος”(=set up ambush). Hippolochos was a Macedonian historian (ca. 300 B.C.)
67. ALEXARCHOS (Αλέξαρχος) m, ancient Greek
Derives from Greek “Αλέξω” (=defend, protect, help) + “Αρχος ” (= master). Alexarchos was brother of Cassandros.
68. ASCLEPIODOROS (Ασκληπιοδορος) m Ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Asclepios (= cut up) + Doro (=Gift). Asclepios was the name of the god of healing and medicine in Greek mythology. Asclepiodoros was a prominent Macedonian, son of Eunikos from Pella. Another Asclepiodoros in Alexander’s army was son of Timandros.
69. KALLINES (Καλλινης) m Ancient Greek
Derives from greek words kalli + nao (=stream beautifully). He was a Macedonian, officer of companions.
70. PLEISTARHOS (Πλείσταρχος) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek words Pleistos (=too much) + Arhos ((= master). He was younger brother of Cassander.
71. POLYKLES (Πολυκλής) m ancient Greek
Derives from the words Poli (=city) + Kleos (glory). Macedonian who served as Strategos of Antipater.
72. POLYDAMAS (Πολυδάμας) m ancient Greek
The translation of his name means “the one who subordinates a city”. One Hetairos.
73. APOLLOPHANES (Απολλοφάνης) m ancient greek.
His name derives from the greek verb “απολλυμι” (=to destroy) and φαίνομαι (= appear to be). Apollophanes was a prominent Macedonian who was appointed Satrap of Oreitae.
74. ARCHIAS (Αρχίας) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command). Archias was one of the Macedonian trierarchs in Hydaspes river.
75. ARCHESILAOS (Αρχεσίλαος) m ancient Greek
His name derive from greek verb Άρχω (=head or be in command) + Λαος (= people). Archesilaos was a Macedonian that received the satrapy of Mesopotamia in the settlement of 323.
76. ARETAS (Αρετας) m ancient Greek
Derives from the greek word Areti (=virtue). He was commander of Sarissoforoi at Gaugamela.
77. KLEANDROS (Κλέανδρος) m ancient Greek
Derives from greek verb Κλέος (=fame) + Ανδρος (=man). He was commander of Archers and was killed in Hallicarnasus in 334 BC.
78. AGESISTRATOS (Αγησίστρατος) m ancient greek
Father of Paramonos, a general of Antigonos Doson. His name derives from verb ηγήσομαι ( = lead in command) + στρατος (= army). “Hgisomai” in Doric dialect is “Agisomai”. Its full meaning is “the one who leads the army”
79. AGERROS (Αγερρος) M ancient Greek
He was father of Andronikos, general of Alexander. His name derives from the verb αγέρρω (= the one who makes gatherings)
80. AVREAS (Αβρέας) m ancient Greek
Officer of Alexander the great. His name derives from the adj. αβρός (=polite)
81. AGATHANOR (Αγαθάνωρ) m ancient Greek
Som of Thrasycles. He was priest of Asklepios for about 5 years. His origin was from Beroia as is attested from an inscription. His name derives from the adj. αγαθός (= virtuous) + ανήρ (= man). The full meaning of his name is “Virtuous man”
82. AGAKLES (Αγακλής) m ancient Greek
He was son of Simmihos and was from Pella. He is known from a resolution of Aetolians. His name derives from the adj. Αγακλεής (= too glorious)
83. AGASIKLES (Αγασικλής) m ancient Greek
Son of Mentor, from Dion of Macedonia. It derives from the verb άγαμαι (= admire) + Κλέος (=fame). Its full meaning is “the one who admires fame”
84. AGGAREOS (Αγγάρεος) m ancient Greek
Son of Dalon from Amphipolis. He is known from an inscription of Amphipolis (S.E.G vol 31. ins. 616) It derives from the noun Αγγαρεία (= news)
85. AGELAS (Αγέλας) m ancient Greek
Son of Alexander. He was born during the mid-5th BCE and was an ambassador of Macedonians during the treaty between Macedonians and Atheneans. This treaty exists in inscription 89.vol1 Fasc.1 Ed.3″Attic inscrip.”
His name was common among Heraclides and Bacchiades. One Agelas was king of Corinth during the first quarter of 5 BCE. His name derives from the verb άγω (= lead) and the noun Λαός (= people or even soldiers (Homeric)). The full meaning is the “one who leads the people/soldiers”.
86. AGIPPOS (Άγιππος) m ancient Greek
He was from Beroia of Macedonia and lived during middle 3rd BCE. He is known from an inscription found in Beroia where his name appears as the witness in a slave-freeing. Another case bearing the name Agippos in the Greek world was the father of Timokratos from Zakynthos. The name Agippos derives from the verb άγω (= lead) + the word ίππος (= Horse). Its full meaning is “the one who leads the horse/calvary”.
87. AGLAIANOS (Αγλαϊάνος) m ancient Greek
He was from Amphipolis of Macedonia (c. 4th BC) and he is known from an inscription S.E.G vol41., insc. 556
His name consists of aglai- from the verb αγλαϊζω (= honour) and the ending -anos.
88. AGNOTHEOS (Αγνόθεος) m ancient Greek
Macedonian, possibly from Pella. His name survived from an inscription found in Pella between 300-250 BCE. (SEG vol46.insc.799)
His name derives from Αγνός ( = pure) + Θεός (=God). The full meaning is “the one who has inside a pure god”
89. ATHENAGORAS (Αθηναγόρας) m ancient Greek
General of Philip V. He was the general who stopped Dardanian invasion in 199 BC. His name derives from the verb αγορά-ομαι (=deliver a speech) + the name Αθηνά (= Athena).
90. PERIANDROS (Περίανδρος) m ancient Greek
Son of the Macedonian historian Marsyas. His name derives from Περί (= too much) + άνηρ (man, brave). Its full meaning is “too brave/man”.
91. LEODISKOS (Λεοντίσκος) m ancient Greek
He was son of Ptolemy A’ and Thais, His name derives from Λέων (= lion) + the ending -iskos (=little). His name’s full etymology is “Little Lion”
92. EPHRANOR (Ευφράνωρ) m ancient Greek
He was General of Perseas. It derives from the verb Ευφραίνω (= delight). Its full meaning is “the one who delights”.
93. DIONYSOPHON m Ancient Greek
It has the meaning “Voice of Dionysos”. The ending -phon is typical among ancient greek names.
MACEDONIAN WOMEN
94. ANTIGONE f ancient Greek
Usage: Greek Mythology
Pronounced: an-TIG-o-nee
Means ‘against birth’ from Greek anti ‘against’ and gone ‘birth’. In Greek legend Antigone was the daughter of Oedipus and Jocasta. King Creon of Thebes declared that her slain brother Polynices was to remain unburied, a great dishonour. She disobeyed and gave him a proper burial, and for this she was sealed alive in a cave. Antigone of Pydna was the mistress of Philotas, the son of Parmenion and commander of Alexander the Great’s Companion cavalry (Plutarch, Alexander, ‘The Lives of the Noble Grecians and Romans’).
95. VOULOMAGA (Βουλομάγα) f ancient greek
Derives from greek words “Βούλομαι (=desire) + άγαν (=too much)”. Her name is found among donators.
96. ATALANTE (Αταλαντη) f ancient Greek
Her name means in Greek “without talent”. She was daughter of Orontes, and sister of Perdiccas.
97. AGELAEIA (Αγελαεία) f ancient Greek
Wife of Amyntas, from the city of Beroia (S.E.G vol 48. insc. 738)
It derives from the adj. Αγέλα-ος ( = the one who belongs to a herd)
98. ATHENAIS (Αθηναϊς) f ancient Greek
The name was found on an altar of Heracles Kigagidas in Beroia. It derives from the name Athena and the ending -is meaning “small”. Its whole meaning is “little Athena”.
99. STRATONIKE f Ancient Greek (STRATONICE Latinized)
Means ‘victorious army’ from stratos ‘army’ and nike ‘victory’. Sister of King Perdiccas II. “…and Perdiccas afterwards gave his sister Stratonice to Seuthes as he had promised.” (Thucydides, The Peloponnesian War, Chapter VIII)
100. THETIMA f Ancient Greek
A name from Pella Katadesmos. It has the meaning “she who honors the gods”; the standard Attic form would be Theotimē.



PS
just remember to eat dinner its almost night at Aimos

1. Alexandros - defending men in greek, but what does it mean in Trojan, Paris was called Alexander as well....? I guess Trojans were Greek after all? Keep bouncing is all fun for us:)


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Yetos
02-05-19, 03:59
So they are Thracian?? 1500 BC Thracian tumulus in Macedonia? Right?


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Nobody said they are Thracian.
You said they were Illyrians and now you say are thracian

But with NO evidences ,
Just a personal claim and your opinion

So your Post is not to be taken Serious,
Come ask The archaiologists

other wise you just are a volunteer for Personal opinion evidences Scholar.

And what 1500 BC?
at 1500 Both Myceneans and Greeks were in their known Lands,
and Illyrian were in Austria, and original Albanians at Dacia.

So Bye Bye personal Opinion, :laughing:
The one who found that Tumulus in Greece are Illyrian. :embarassed:

Yetos
02-05-19, 04:03
1. Alexandros - defending men in greek, but what does it mean in Trojan, Paris was called Alexander as well....? I guess Trojans were Greek after all? Keep bouncing is all fun for us:)


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ANOTHER PERSONAL OPINION OF YOURS?

Woaw, TYOU SHOULD GO TO SETI SEARCHING FOR ALLIENS.

Yetos
02-05-19, 04:05
Cetina related with Mycenaean civilization come on this is a joke not Seima -Turbino. Considering also lack of R1b so far and minimal step for sure Seima - Turbino.


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Blevins mycenean core shows Catacomb culture,
And Yes Cetina is the first split of Greeks around 2500-3000 BC


Do not forget to eat, maybe dinner will calm you.

blevins13
02-05-19, 04:10
Blevins mycenean core shows Catacomb culture,
And Yes Cetina is the first split of Greeks around 2500-3000 BC


Do not forget to eat, maybe dinner will calm you.

I am on diet so no dinner ... so let’s have some more fun, what about Seima-Turbino, is that my invention???? Bouncing keep bouncing.


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blevins13
02-05-19, 04:13
ANOTHER PERSONAL OPINION OF YOURS?

Woaw, TYOU SHOULD GO TO SETI SEARCHING FOR ALLIENS.

What is the meaning of Aléxandros in Trojan???? Same as Greek or else?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_(mythology)


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blevins13
02-05-19, 04:32
Nobody said they are Thracian.
You said they were Illyrians and now you say are thracian

But with NO evidences ,
Just a personal claim and your opinion

So your Post is not to be taken Serious,
Come ask The archaiologists

other wise you just are a volunteer for Personal opinion evidences Scholar.

And what 1500 BC?
at 1500 Both Myceneans and Greeks were in their known Lands,
and Illyrian were in Austria, and original Albanians at Dacia.

So Bye Bye personal Opinion, :laughing:
The one who found that Tumulus in Greece are Illyrian. :embarassed:

My personal opinion? But Did I write this book as well. Seima Turbino culture

The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World.
By David W. Anthony, 2007

Did I write this as well:
https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceMycenae.htm

Go dream about Russia now since you already have it on your heart.


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Salento
02-05-19, 04:57
ANOTHER PERSONAL OPINION OF YOURS?

Woaw, TYOU SHOULD GO TO SETI SEARCHING FOR ALLIENS.

There’s nothing wrong with SETI :)

I already joined [email protected]

I’m scanning for ET and writing to you at the same time. lol

Everybody should join SETI.

https://setiathome.berkeley.edu/

Yetos
02-05-19, 07:24
I am on diet so no dinner ... so let’s have some more fun, what about Seima-Turbino, is that my invention???? Bouncing keep bouncing.


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Fun what fun?

you forgot to eat, you forgot what you write, you forgot what you read,

hm it is better not to make fun with you,
it is not wise to make fun with people who had brain stroke,

blevins13
02-05-19, 10:45
I don't forget anything......just to clarify Members of this Forum.
For many years Greek archeology has tried to establish a connection between Tumulus burials (Kurgan Culture) and Mycenaean Culure.
But according to The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, David W Anthony and https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceMycenae.htm

"The Mycenaeans were West Indo-Europeans (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsFarEast/AsiaIndoEuropeans.htm), part of a much greater expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans (IEs) from the northern shores of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. A general consensus of scholarly opinion was that they migrated into Eastern Europe (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianCulturesEurope.htm) from the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the period between 3300-2600 BC. After having left the main westwards migration of proto-IE around 2500 BC, they gradually blended into the indigenous population in the lower Balkans (the Pelasgians (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreecePelasgians.htm)) between then and 2000 BC. However, in recent years that idea has undergone some refinement.
Clearly the Mycenaeans were part of an imported steppe culture. But the close relationship between Mycenaean and proto-Indo-Iranian (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsFarEast/AsiaIndoIranians.htm) languages shows that these two branches divided fairly late, sometime between 2500-2000 BC. Archaeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities to the Seima-Turbino culture (between about 1900-1600 BC) of the northern Russian (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternRussia.htm#Modern) forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites have been found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaeans descended from the steppe into Greece between 1900-1650 BC, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new, unique Greek culture. Naturally, as the new dominant force in the region, their language would also have dominated. The locals had gained between 62% and 86% of their DNA from people who had introduced farming from Anatolia as part of 'Old Europe'. They would have adopted this language fairly quickly and, if not them, then their children or grandchildren would have, which is why modern Greek expresses its IE origins so clearly. However, the IE influence on DNA in Greece was more subtle than across much of Europe, showing that these Mycenaean IEs arriving in Greece were less in number than some of their IE cousins.

The new proto-Greek speakers covered a swathe of territory that reached as far north as Epirus (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceEpirus.htm). They emerged into the archaeological record rather suddenly, with the appearance of shaft grave royal burials around 1650 BC. but, whilst the first city states had emerged by 1600 BC (the same time at which Mycenaean culture also appears on Cyprus (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceCyprus.htm)), the Mycenaeans did not form one nation state. Instead they banded their independent city states together under one leader in times of trouble. During their own time they were known primarily as Achaeans, after the Achaea region of Greece."

So there is no relation between tumulus burials and Proto-Greeks, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus. The Mycenaeanization of Macedonia (close to Mount Olympus) started later as stated in this research.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece


And it seems that while gathering this info I might have had a brain stroke according to Yetos with illuminating effects.

P.S.It is so fun to see Yetos Bouncing around like a wind-up toy just to deny the obvious, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus.

Have a good day.

Yetos
02-05-19, 11:06
So there is no relation between tumulus burials and Proto-Greeks, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus. The Mycenaeanization of Macedonia (close to Mount Olympus) started later as stated in this research.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece
[/B]

And it seems that while gathering this info I might have had a brain stroke according to Yetos with illuminating effects.

P.S.It is so fun to see Yetos Bouncing around like a wind-up toy just to deny the obvious, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus.

Have a good day.


What ever your heart desires

But it is obvious you really do not history not only of illyrians, But of Greece and Balkans generally.

Notice the bellow


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Hf0eq77DQ

Illyrians are the people who enter Balkans from Noricum Austria 2 milleniums after the Greek existance,

Btw I have fun
your links and posts are indeed funny

The area of protoGreek

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png/220px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png

As you see Illyrians at that Era were in Alps,
and Albanian language was far more East and North.


HISTORY IS NOT ONLY GEOGRAPHY BUT ALSO TIMING.
And if you do not want to be the funny guy, realize the above.

Blevins the Mycenean world

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Mycenaean_World_en.png



BLEVINS YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE AN ANCESTOR OF MYCENEANS AS YOU CLAIMED BEFORE FEW YEARS?

LABERIA
02-05-19, 12:09
by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus.
And this was exactly the situation 100 years ago. History is really interesting.

blevins13
02-05-19, 12:32
What ever your heart desires

But it is obvious you really do not history not only of illyrians, But of Greece and Balkans generally.

Notice the bellow


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5Hf0eq77DQ

Illyrians are the people who enter Balkans from Noricum Austria 2 milleniums after the Greek existance,

Btw I have fun
your links and posts are indeed funny

The area of protoGreek

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png/220px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png

As you see Illyrians at that Era were in Alps,
and Albanian language was far more East and North.


HISTORY IS NOT ONLY GEOGRAPHY BUT ALSO TIMING.
And if you do not want to be the funny guy, realize the above.

Blevins the Mycenean world

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Mycenaean_World_en.png



BLEVINS YOU STILL BELIEVE THAT YOU ARE AN ANCESTOR OF MYCENEANS AS YOU CLAIMED BEFORE FEW YEARS?

Member of the forum here you have a bad example of people that instead of presenting counter arguments in form of academic research as I did for the origin of Mycenaean and their connection to Macedonia, they start talking about me( what I know and what I don’t know, and Illyrians and Albanians off topic) and post youtube videos. Anyway I presented to the forum members that there is a switch now from what was initially thought for Mycenaean origin. Most likely their origin is related to Seima -Turbino phenomenon as explained above. They have no relationship with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials in Macedonia and Epirus at 1,500 B.C.
Feel free to oppose this but with proper academic research.




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Yetos
02-05-19, 13:55
Member of the forum here you have a bad example of people that instead of presenting counter arguments in form of academic research as I did for the origin of Mycenaean and their connection to Macedonia, they start talking about me( what I know and what I don’t know, and Illyrians and Albanians off topic) and post youtube videos. Anyway I presented to the forum members that there is a switch now from what was initially thought for Mycenaean origin. Most likely their origin is related to Seima -Turbino phenomenon as explained above. They have no relationship with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials in Macedonia and Epirus at 1,500 B.C.
Feel free to oppose this but with proper academic research.




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when you have an based argument, and not just confusion, spam, and fogy opinions,
Go ahead bring it we will read and I will discuss it

At Least do you realize now that YOUR Hideous spam, (Illyrian Mark is just your empathy and Mania?

Until now you brought nothing, for discuss.
in a Thread for Makedonians you mixed up Seima-Turbino, Steppes, what next? Altaic mountains or Caledonian Dna?

Your answer is given above,
split of proto Greek is about 3000 BC


Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians) in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paraskevi_Tritsaroli/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece/links/5b2e63baa6fdcc8506c3edde/The-Pigi-Athinas-tumuli-cemetery-of-macedonian-olympus-Burial-customs-and-the-bioarchaeology-of-social-structures-at-the-dawn-of-the-late-Bronze-Age-central-Macedonia-Greece.pdf?origin=publication_detail


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THIS IS NOT EVEN TO Be DISCUSSED
not to use word disgusting
cause provides an empathy, a mania, or hidden effort to persuade someone for wrong facts.
besides it is tottaly wrong, and says nothing in Link as you claim.

blevins13
03-05-19, 19:41
when you have an based argument, and not just confusion, spam, and fogy opinions,
Go ahead bring it we will read and I will discuss it

At Least do you realize now that YOUR Hideous spam, (Illyrian Mark is just your empathy and Mania?

Until now you brought nothing, for discuss.
in a Thread for Makedonians you mixed up Seima-Turbino, Steppes, what next? Altaic mountains or Caledonian Dna?

Your answer is given above,
split of proto Greek is about 3000 BC

[FONT=Verdana]


THIS IS NOT EVEN TO Be DISCUSSED
not to use word disgusting
cause provides an empathy, a mania, or hidden effort to persuade someone for wrong facts.
besides it is tottaly wrong, and says nothing in Link as you claim.


I laid down academic sources and non for the link that exist between Mycenaean (verified Linear B Greek language1450 BC) culture and Seima Turbino Culture as follows:
1.book The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World.
By David W. Anthony, 2007 page 447

2. Eupedia page on R1a Greek Branch
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

3. The history files
https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceMycenae.htm

4. Ancient Metallurgy in the USSR: The Early Metal Age By Evgenil Nikolaevich Chernykh page 203

I invite the members of this forum to go through this information and draw their own conclusions.
If the above is true than Kurgan people in Macedonia in 1500 BC have nothing to do with Proto Greeks and Mycenaeans. Their Hellenization happened afterwards.
I will show Accademia research of Illyrian Kurgan relation in a second step and at a proper thread.




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Piro Ilir
04-05-19, 19:13
Not enough loan words between the two languages to be neighbors for at least 3000 years. We have more loan words from the Turkish than Albanian and we were only neighbors and subjects for 4 centuries.

Yes, you have from Albanian if you put aside the albaniphobia. And Turkish was the language of government for many years.

Albanian and Greek languages share a lot between them, especially the Tosk alban. While Gheg have very ancient loanwords from Greek.

If you'll see the Illyrian map, most of Illyrian speaking areas are lying away from the Greek influence.

There were distinct branches of proto Illyrian. The southern ones located in northern Greece moved into Anatolia circa 1200bce as so called Mushki people (Phrygians, Armenians)

Piro Ilir
04-05-19, 19:42
I don't forget anything......just to clarify Members of this Forum.
For many years Greek archeology has tried to establish a connection between Tumulus burials (Kurgan Culture) and Mycenaean Culure.
But according to The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, David W Anthony and https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceMycenae.htm

"The Mycenaeans were West Indo-Europeans (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsFarEast/AsiaIndoEuropeans.htm), part of a much greater expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans (IEs) from the northern shores of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. A general consensus of scholarly opinion was that they migrated into Eastern Europe (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/BarbarianCulturesEurope.htm) from the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the period between 3300-2600 BC. After having left the main westwards migration of proto-IE around 2500 BC, they gradually blended into the indigenous population in the lower Balkans (the Pelasgians (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreecePelasgians.htm)) between then and 2000 BC. However, in recent years that idea has undergone some refinement.
Clearly the Mycenaeans were part of an imported steppe culture. But the close relationship between Mycenaean and proto-Indo-Iranian (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsFarEast/AsiaIndoIranians.htm) languages shows that these two branches divided fairly late, sometime between 2500-2000 BC. Archaeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities to the Seima-Turbino culture (between about 1900-1600 BC) of the northern Russian (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/EasternRussia.htm#Modern) forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites have been found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaeans descended from the steppe into Greece between 1900-1650 BC, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new, unique Greek culture. Naturally, as the new dominant force in the region, their language would also have dominated. The locals had gained between 62% and 86% of their DNA from people who had introduced farming from Anatolia as part of 'Old Europe'. They would have adopted this language fairly quickly and, if not them, then their children or grandchildren would have, which is why modern Greek expresses its IE origins so clearly. However, the IE influence on DNA in Greece was more subtle than across much of Europe, showing that these Mycenaean IEs arriving in Greece were less in number than some of their IE cousins.

The new proto-Greek speakers covered a swathe of territory that reached as far north as Epirus (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceEpirus.htm). They emerged into the archaeological record rather suddenly, with the appearance of shaft grave royal burials around 1650 BC. but, whilst the first city states had emerged by 1600 BC (the same time at which Mycenaean culture also appears on Cyprus (https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceCyprus.htm)), the Mycenaeans did not form one nation state. Instead they banded their independent city states together under one leader in times of trouble. During their own time they were known primarily as Achaeans, after the Achaea region of Greece."

So there is no relation between tumulus burials and Proto-Greeks, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus. The Mycenaeanization of Macedonia (close to Mount Olympus) started later as stated in this research.
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece


And it seems that while gathering this info I might have had a brain stroke according to Yetos with illuminating effects.

P.S.It is so fun to see Yetos Bouncing around like a wind-up toy just to deny the obvious, by 1500 BC there were no Greeks neither in Macedonia nor in Epirus.

Have a good day.

The Greek myth, says that Hellenes and Persians had a common ancestor. Seems they were right.

Piro Ilir
04-05-19, 19:50
Member of the forum here you have a bad example of people that instead of presenting counter arguments in form of academic research as I did for the origin of Mycenaean and their connection to Macedonia, they start talking about me( what I know and what I don’t know, and Illyrians and Albanians off topic) and post youtube videos. Anyway I presented to the forum members that there is a switch now from what was initially thought for Mycenaean origin. Most likely their origin is related to Seima -Turbino phenomenon as explained above. They have no relationship with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials in Macedonia and Epirus at 1,500 B.C.
Feel free to oppose this but with proper academic research.




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Tracians were probably the first IE people settling in Balkans. It would be interesting to know what was their R1 Y-dna branch.

Boreas
04-05-19, 21:13
Tracians were probably the first IE people settling in Balkans. It would be interesting to know what was their R1 Y-dna branch.
10995

How ? Source? They suppose to be later then Hellenic

Ownstyler
04-05-19, 22:05
10995

How ? Source? They suppose to be later then Hellenic

Interesting map. Can I have the source?

Dibran
05-05-19, 19:24
Tracians were probably the first IE people settling in Balkans. It would be interesting to know what was their R1 Y-dna branch.

We already do. At least one so far was found in Bronze Age Bulgaria that was R1a-Z93.

Piro Ilir
06-05-19, 11:31
10995

How ? Source? They suppose to be later then Hellenic

It's from the Greek writings. They said that they found around here the Tracians. Even most modern scholars agree with this. Tracians were supposed to live in most of Balkans even before the spread of Illyrians from the north.

Piro Ilir
06-05-19, 11:42
We already do. At least one so far was found in Bronze Age Bulgaria that was R1a-Z93.
Thank you for this info. Do you have any idea what century might it have been? Iron age is a long period. It might have been a Persian invader.


So it is connected with the Indo Iranian Y-dna. So far we know that they were Ev13+Z93. That's a good help.

Yetos
06-05-19, 13:35
I laid down academic sources and non for the link that exist between Mycenaean (verified Linear B Greek language1450 BC) culture and Seima Turbino Culture as follows:
1.book The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World.
By David W. Anthony, 2007 page 447

2. Eupedia page on R1a Greek Branch
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

2. Eupedia page on R1a Greek Branch
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

4. Ancient Metallurgy in the USSR: The Early Metal Age By Evgenil Nikolaevich Chernykh page 203

I invite the members of this forum to go through this information and draw their own conclusions.
If the above is true than Kurgan people in Macedonia in 1500 BC have nothing to do with Proto Greeks and Mycenaeans. Their Hellenization happened afterwards.
I will show Accademia research of Illyrian Kurgan relation in a second step and at a proper thread.




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Blevins
when I post a link of a video of a dialexis about Myceneans
YOU WERE PROUD AND TELL US ABOUT YOUR MYCENEAN ANCESTRY.

Now it is time to Find The GREEKS by your Theory,
wanted or Not the bellow is according what you provide

Watch after min 41:00


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze-NMnFVzBc

The answer to your theories and opinions, after min 41:00
Offcourse I keep my precautions,
since all this steppe and Yamnaa is problematic, for me,
BUT if you agree with it, and you are, this is your answer,
Which when I posted, you were laughing, and Cheer ''I am Mycenean'
Now the answer to you, given before 2 years, according your Theories.
If you notice it, you would not bother us, (Forum) and your shelf.


BTW
DO YOU STILL CLAIM THAT YOU ARE A MYCENAN ORIGIN?

book When and Whence the Greeks, Giannopoulos

https://www.archaeology.wiki/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Giannopoulos_EN.jpg

anyway I still am precautious about steppe,
and you can not convince me,
although today seems more possible,
but the book is according all the above you wrote.


If you can not understand it, your problem.
SO STOP POSTING ABOUT MYCENEANS IN A THREAD ABOUT MAKEDONIANS.
MAKEDONIANS CLAIM DORIAN DESCENT, NOT MYCENEAN
AND MAKE THREAD ABOUT YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE HISTORICAL QUESTIONS AND GENNETICS.
OR HOW MUCH MYCENEAN ARE YOU, AS CLAIMED IN PAST.

before Lazarides papper, you were making irony with me, about your R1b, claiming Mycenean relativity, and Myceneans were R1b, what now? they were Steppe with average 14% steppe ancestry?
and ask me if i believe that you a descendant or an ancestror of them, remeber?
Now what? what scratches you about Myceneans?, and you post in a thread about Makedonians?
about tumuli in lands of proto-Greeks, which are Illyrian according your Opinion, :thinking: (Illyrian!!!, so tumuli enter Greece from the lands of Celts!!!!!! :sad-2:, West to East!!! against IE expansion East to West!!! )

:useless: :useless: :useless:

you know the moto,
the one who scratches his back at tsompani's batton, is looking to be beaten, not scratched.


FINALLY
BLEVINS13
do these bellow ,
1.book The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World.
By David W. Anthony, 2007 page 447

2. Eupedia page on R1a Greek Branch
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

4. Ancient Metallurgy in the USSR: The Early Metal Age By Evgenil Nikolaevich Chernykh page 203

which you proudly claim, SAY That Tumuli is mark of Illyrians?:thinking::thinking: NO
I guess not, so your effort, was either to disinform us, or you wanted to scratch your back at the batton.
And when someone realize you, instead of cover, you attack with just whatever,
your primary purpose was to 'show-blind' us that Makedonians were Illyrians, since they found some tumuli,
and at the end you mix seima-turbino (were they Illyrians too?) mettalurgy, Steppe Myceneans Illyrians etc,,

Yetos
06-05-19, 14:07
All of you,
understand these simple things

1) makedonians never claim mycenean ancestry, but dorian,
2) proto-greek appears with proto-brygian much earlier and north of mycenean world,

Piro Ilir
06-05-19, 16:16
All of you,
understand these simple things

1) makedonians never claim mycenean ancestry, but dorian,
2) proto-greek appears with proto-brygian much earlier and north of mycenean world,




They all claimed descent from Hetacleidaes. This was their myth. According to ancient Greek myth, Dorians were illegitimate sons of Mycenaeans. They just came back and restored or claimed back their heritage. Anyway, this was just a myth. All this myth explains the invasion of Illyrians from the north at the end of the bronze age. They moved into southern Balkans by destroying the Mycenaean hegemony. At the same time they went through into Anatolia and settled in former Hittite areas.

Yetos
06-05-19, 16:25
They all claimed descent from Hetacleidaes. This was their myth. According to ancient Greek myth, Dorians were illegitimate sons of Mycenaeans. They just came back and restored or claimed back their heritage. Anyway, this was just a myth. All this myth explains the invasion of Illyrians from the north at the end of the bronze age. They moved into southern Balkans by destroying the Mycenaean hegemony. At the same time they went through into Anatolia and settled in former Hittite areas.


:confused2: :confused2: :confused2:

what?
Illyrians are the sea peoples ? :amazed:
amazing

Piro Ilir
06-05-19, 17:00
:confused2: :confused2: :confused2:

what?
Now Illyrians are the sea people? :petrified: :petrified: :petrified: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:


:depressed: :depressed: :depressed:

Yes, why not?! Not all of them, just some of them. It is not me the first to think such theory. R1b-Z2103 haplogroup is perfect in this scenario. It probably entered Anatolia at the time of sea people (Mushki people). Anyway, don't mess up the bronze age Illyrians with classical Illyrians whom all of us know. Classical Illyrians maybe descended from northern Illyrians, while Armenians and Phrygians descended from southern Illyrians.
Albanian, Phrygian, and Armenian are all satem languages, but were satemized in iron age or especially at the end of the bronze age. It may have happened via Tracian influence in Balkans.

Definitely, Macedons were Hellenised Illyrians, especially their royalty. Don't underestimate the influence of the Hellenistic culture and politics over the tribes living near Mediterranean basin.

Dibran
06-05-19, 17:43
Thank you for this info. Do you have any idea what century might it have been? Iron age is a long period. It might have been a Persian invader.


So it is connected with the Indo Iranian Y-dna. So far we know that they were Ev13+Z93. That's a good help.

I don't think they share the same SNPs. If I am not mistaken it was 400-600BC the sample. They came out Swedish like autosomally in some calculators.

blevins13
06-05-19, 18:08
Blevins
when I post a link of a video of a dialexis about Myceneans
YOU WERE PROUD AND TELL US ABOUT YOUR MYCENEAN ANCESTRY.

Now it is time to Find The GREEKS by your Theory,
wanted or Not the bellow is according what you provide

Watch after min 41:00


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ze-NMnFVzBc

The answer to your theories and opinions, after min 41:00
Offcourse I keep my precautions,
since all this steppe and Yamnaa is problematic, for me,
BUT if you agree with it, and you are, this is your answer,
Which when I posted, you were laughing, and Cheer ''I am Mycenean'
Now the answer to you, given before 2 years, according your Theories.
If you notice it, you would not bother us, (Forum) and your shelf.


BTW
DO YOU STILL CLAIM THAT YOU ARE A MYCENAN ORIGIN?

book When and Whence the Greeks, Giannopoulos

https://www.archaeology.wiki/wp-content/uploads/2013/02/Giannopoulos_EN.jpg

anyway I still am precautious about steppe,
and you can not convince me,
although today seems more possible,
but the book is according all the above you wrote.


If you can not understand it, your problem.
SO STOP POSTING ABOUT MYCENEANS IN A THREAD ABOUT MAKEDONIANS.
MAKEDONIANS CLAIM DORIAN DESCENT, NOT MYCENEAN
AND MAKE THREAD ABOUT YOU AND YOUR PEOPLE HISTORICAL QUESTIONS AND GENNETICS.
OR HOW MUCH MYCENEAN ARE YOU, AS CLAIMED IN PAST.

before Lazarides papper, you were making irony with me, about your R1b, claiming Mycenean relativity, and Myceneans were R1b, what now? they were Steppe with average 14% steppe ancestry?
and ask me if i believe that you a descendant or an ancestror of them, remeber?
Now what? what scratches you about Myceneans?, and you post in a thread about Makedonians?
about tumuli in lands of proto-Greeks, which are Illyrian according your Opinion, :thinking: (Illyrian!!!, so tumuli enter Greece from the lands of Celts!!!!!! :sad-2:, West to East!!! against IE expansion East to West!!! )

:useless: :useless: :useless:

you know the moto,
the one who scratches his back at tsompani's batton, is looking to be beaten, not scratched.


FINALLY
BLEVINS13
do these bellow ,
1.book The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World.
By David W. Anthony, 2007 page 447

2. Eupedia page on R1a Greek Branch
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

4. Ancient Metallurgy in the USSR: The Early Metal Age By Evgenil Nikolaevich Chernykh page 203

which you proudly claim, SAY That Tumuli is mark of Illyrians?:thinking::thinking: NO
I guess not, so your effort, was either to disinform us, or you wanted to scratch your back at the batton.
And when someone realize you, instead of cover, you attack with just whatever,
your primary purpose was to 'show-blind' us that Makedonians were Illyrians, since they found some tumuli,
and at the end you mix seima-turbino (were they Illyrians too?) mettalurgy, Steppe Myceneans Illyrians etc,,

Again I repeat, I have no opinion on my own for the proto- greek and Mycenaeans.
I presented some research on Mycenaeans and their relation to Seima-Turbino culture.
On the other side I presented some other research that Kurgan people lived in Macedonia based on tumulus burial around 1500 BC. Seima -Turbino and Kurgan are two separate cultures. Mycenaean were proven Greek speakers 1450 BC. But they were not in Macedonia at that time. Mycenaeanization of Macedonia happen afterwards. Around 1500 BC Kurgan people lived in Macedonia based on research that I presented.
If you want to oppose the findings of these research that I presented, you are free to post other academic research but not Greek since they can’t be objective in this argument and I don’t understand anything of what they are talking about. So post Academic papers supporting the opposite that Mycenaean are Kurgan people coming from Macedonia and or Epirus.
We can’t convince each other but good academic research can convince us.

I will elaborate Illyrian Kurgan relationship not here and not now.

Off topic: show me when I have claimed this Mycenaean ancestry, I do not recall that two years ago.


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Yetos
06-05-19, 18:19
Yes, why not?! Not all of them, just some of them. It is not me the first to think such theory. R1b-Z2103 haplogroup is perfect in this scenario. It probably entered Anatolia at the time of sea people (Mushki people). Anyway, don't mess up the bronze age Illyrians with classical Illyrians whom all of us know. Classical Illyrians maybe descended from northern Illyrians, while Armenians and Phrygians descended from southern Illyrians.
Albanian, Phrygian, and Armenian are all satem languages, but were satemized in iron age or especially at the end of the bronze age. It may have happened via Tracian influence in Balkans.

Definitely, Macedons were Hellenised Illyrians, especially their royalty. Don't underestimate the influence of the Hellenistic culture and politics over the tribes living near Mediterranean basin.


:confused2: :confused2: :confused2:

Ha?
so Makedonians were influenced by the later of them Hellenistic culture, :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2:
and they did not create it?

:wary2: :wary2: :wary2:

Yetos
06-05-19, 18:21
Again I repeat, I have no opinion on my own for the proto- greek and Mycenaeans.
I presented some research on Mycenaeans and their relation to Seima-Turbino culture.
On the other side I presented some other research that Kurgan people lived in Macedonia based on tumulus burial around 1500 BC. Seima -Turbino and Kurgan are two separate cultures. Mycenaean were proven Greek speakers 1450 BC. But they were not in Macedonia at that time. Mycenaeanization of Macedonia happen afterwards. Around 1500 BC Kurgan people lived in Macedonia based on research that I presented.
If you want to oppose the findings of these research that I presented, you are free to post other academic research but not Greek since they can’t be objective in this argument and I don’t understand anything of what they are talking about. So post Academic papers supporting the opposite that Mycenaean are Kurgan people coming from Macedonia and or Epirus.
We can’t convince each other but good academic research can convince us.

I will elaborate Illyrian Kurgan relationship not here and not now.

Off topic: show me when I have claimed this Mycenaean ancestry, I do not recall that two years ago.


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Mycenaeanization of Makedonia :petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

anyway, I suggest you a book,
read it to understand, and solve your questions.

and NO
you can not elaborate 'Illyrian' tumuli from West to East, but from East to West.
anyway when you make up your mind who were Illyrians, Makedonians, Myceneans, Thracians Yamnaa,
and what time was each, come back,
At least read the book of Giannopoulos, the Cetina's the Cotofeni, the Myceneans etc
It is in harmony with steppe theory,

Vucedol-Vatin etc is a point of entry, but also a point of exit,

suggest you to study this map
and realize that Myceneans are not the only Greeks neither the proto-Greeks

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png/300px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png

Yetos
06-05-19, 18:40
we have filled 34 pages with crap.

Piro Ilir
06-05-19, 19:33
:confused2: :confused2: :confused2:

Ha?
so Makedonians were influenced by the later of them Hellenistic culture, :rolleyes2: :rolleyes2:
and they did not create it?

:wary2: :wary2: :wary2:

Yes. The Mycenaean civilization did crumble, but they did not disappeared. The cradle of Hellenistic civilization was Attic/Ionic , which was born from the ashes of the Mycenaean civilization. The official language during Philip II and Alexander the great was Attic/Ionic. Why you think was that? It was because it had a higher status. Athenians always claimed a true Ionic origin for themselves without any Dorian influence. They saw Dorians nearly as barbarians. Indeed Dorians were barbarians whom got civilized through time.

zanipolo
06-05-19, 19:41
:confused2: :confused2: :confused2:
what?
Illyrians are the sea peoples ? :amazed:
amazing


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectosages

Piro Ilir
06-05-19, 19:47
Mycenaeanization of Makedonia :petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

anyway, I suggest you a book,
read it to understand, and solve your questions.

and NO
you can not elaborate 'Illyrian' tumuli from West to East, but from East to West.
anyway when you make up your mind who were Illyrians, Makedonians, Myceneans, Thracians Yamnaa,
and what time was each, come back,
At least read the book of Giannopoulos, the Cetina's the Cotofeni, the Myceneans etc
It is in harmony with steppe theory,

Vucedol-Vatin etc is a point of entry, but also a point of exit,

suggest you to study this map
and realize that Myceneans are not the only Greeks neither the proto-Greeks

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png/300px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png

Your map even if it's true, is of third millennium. Macedonians, to whom we are talking about are an ethnic entity living during the iron age, 500bce. I don't see any connection

LABERIA
06-05-19, 20:04
Your map even if it's true, is of third millennium. Macedonians, to whom we are talking about are an ethnic entity living during the iron age, 500bce. I don't see any connection
It`s an Wikipedia map based on a reconstruction of the 3rd millennium BC "Proto-Greek area", by Vladimir I. Georgiev (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_I._Georgiev).
Georgiev had many strange theories. Nobody take seriously his theories, only the greek "experts" of Wiki and of course the internet trollls.

td120
06-05-19, 20:39
Thank you for this info. Do you have any idea what century might it have been?

So it is connected with the Indo Iranian Y-dna.

Bulgaria_MLBA I2163: Y-hg R1a1a1b2 mt-hg U5a2 1750-1625 calBCE

https://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/37981-Bronze-Age-Balkan-DNA

Yetos
06-05-19, 20:52
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tectosages

What?

Now the transalpine Gauls, who spoke a kind of Belgae, and invade Greece and then moved to Asia at about 280 BC
are sea peoples? or illyrians?

Oh gods, what is next ?

During the Gallic invasion of the Balkans (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gallic_invasion_of_the_Balkans), c. 280 BC

Yetos
06-05-19, 20:56
It`s an Wikipedia map based on a reconstruction of the 3rd millennium BC "Proto-Greek area", by Vladimir I. Georgiev (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_I._Georgiev).
Georgiev had many strange theories. Nobody take seriously his theories, only the greek "experts" of Wiki and of course the internet trollls.

Georgiev and Duridanov are 2 of top for paleobalkan languages,
If it does not fit to your imaginary theories,
that does not mean they were crap,

INSTEAD,
same theories also share
Gray Atkinson Greenhill a group famous for glottochronology
Vladimir Georgiev
Garcia Ramon
Hooker who specialized in Mycenean world
etc
only the Albanian deny them, as also deny Polome, Matzinzer, etc
cause they don't fit in their supreme cosmogenesis.

THE ONLY STRANGE IDEAS ARE THE ONES I READ HERE,
LIKE MYCENEANS SACKED BY ILLYRIANS WHO WERE THE SEA PEOPLES
ETC ETC,

offcourse as always by the same members,
who happen to have something common

Yetos
06-05-19, 20:58
Your map even if it's true, is of third millennium. Macedonians, to whom we are talking about are an ethnic entity living during the iron age, 500bce. I don't see any connection

Offcourse,

you made sea peoples Illyrians or oposite
you made Hellenistic culture pre-Makedonian, which affect Makedonians, who created hellenistic world !!!!,

Now you make Makedonian and NW Dialects foreign to area they born !!!!!
I wonder how you think,
First you tell us Makedonian were Myceneans,
Destroyed by Illyrians sea peoples,
but reborn,
affected by the later of them, Hellenistic culture, which they create,
sounds like a fictional story,
A travel in time,
it would be a nice movie, better than Star Wars.




Next what ?

be serious.


look what you write



Yes. The Mycenaean civilization did crumble, but they did not disappeared. The cradle of Hellenistic civilization was Attic/Ionic , which was born from the ashes of the Mycenaean civilization. The official language during Philip II and Alexander the great was Attic/Ionic. Why you think was that? It was because it had a higher status. Athenians always claimed a true Ionic origin for themselves without any Dorian influence. They saw Dorians nearly as barbarians. Indeed Dorians were barbarians whom got civilized through time.


simply make up your mind,

what connection have Myceneans with Ionians?
Where do you read such things?

Hellenistic is culture of Diadochoi,
only language is based on Attic Dialect,
affected with a lot of Makedonian aspirations
and makes Koine,


You are not to be taken serious.

Tutkun Arnaut
06-05-19, 22:59
Your map even if it's true, is of third millennium. Macedonians, to whom we are talking about are an ethnic entity living during the iron age, 500bce. I don't see any connection

He is shocked to hear other sides of history!!? Completely petrified by his governments propaganda! I am amazed by your patience!

blevins13
06-05-19, 22:59
Mycenaeanization of Makedonia :petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

anyway, I suggest you a book,
read it to understand, and solve your questions.

and NO
you can not elaborate 'Illyrian' tumuli from West to East, but from East to West.
anyway when you make up your mind who were Illyrians, Makedonians, Myceneans, Thracians Yamnaa,
and what time was each, come back,
At least read the book of Giannopoulos, the Cetina's the Cotofeni, the Myceneans etc
It is in harmony with steppe theory,

Vucedol-Vatin etc is a point of entry, but also a point of exit,

suggest you to study this map
and realize that Myceneans are not the only Greeks neither the proto-Greeks

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png/300px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paraskevi_Tritsaroli/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece/links/5b2e63baa6fdcc8506c3edde/The-Pigi-Athinas-tumuli-cemetery-of-macedonian-olympus-Burial-customs-and-the-bioarchaeology-of-social-structures-at-the-dawn-of-the-late-Bronze-Age-central-Macedonia-Greece.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Mycenaeanization of Macedonia is a term used in the research above
By Paraskevi Voula Tritsaroli (January 2017)
The Pigi Athinas tumuli cemetery of macedonian olympus: Burial customs and the bioarchaeology of social structures at the dawn of the late Bronze Age, central Macedonia, Greece
page 228

Again for the members of this forum Mycenaean (Greek speakers Linear B 1450 BC) related to Seima -Turbino Culture. While Kurgan culture, tumulus was presented in Macedonia and Epirus by 1500 BC . If Kurgan People are the same with Seima -Turbino Culture than I rest my case, but show me academic research for that.



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Yetos
06-05-19, 23:34
https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paraskevi_Tritsaroli/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece/links/5b2e63baa6fdcc8506c3edde/The-Pigi-Athinas-tumuli-cemetery-of-macedonian-olympus-Burial-customs-and-the-bioarchaeology-of-social-structures-at-the-dawn-of-the-late-Bronze-Age-central-Macedonia-Greece.pdf?origin=publication_detail

Mycenaeanization of Macedonia is a term used in the research above
By Paraskevi Voula Tritsaroli (January 2017)
The Pigi Athinas tumuli cemetery of macedonian olympus: Burial customs and the bioarchaeology of social structures at the dawn of the late Bronze Age, central Macedonia, Greece
page 228

Again for the members of this forum Mycenaean (Greek speakers Linear B 1450 BC) related to Seima -Turbino Culture. While Kurgan culture, tumulus was presented in Macedonia and Epirus by 1500 BC . If Kurgan People are the same with Seima -Turbino Culture than I rest my case, but show me academic research for that.



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THIS IS YOUR ANSWER,

HOW SIMPLE IT IS,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png/300px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Mycenaean_World_en.png



HOW MORE SIMPLE CAN NOT BE

ISBN-13 978 960 524 3937

Your Answer is There,

blevins13
07-05-19, 01:57
THIS IS YOUR ANSWER,

HOW SIMPLE IT IS,

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png/300px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/33/Mycenaean_World_en.png



HOW MORE SIMPLE CAN NOT BE

ISBN-13 978 960 524 3937

Your Answer is There,








Nice photo but this is not facebook..:: I do not understand all this huff and puff from your side since you agree with me that Kurgan does not fit with Greece. 10999


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Yetos
07-05-19, 04:28
Nice photo but this is not facebook..:: I do not understand all this huff and puff from your side since you agree with me that Kurgan does not fit with Greece. 10999


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Don't put words in my mouth
how typical of a propaganda lie

Read this

ISBN-13 978 960 524 3937

and this

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Bin_Tepe%2C_large_tumulus.jpg/330px-Bin_Tepe%2C_large_tumulus.jpg


The Brygian Tumuli in Lydia,
Brygians were next door people of Makedonians
and Used Tumulus also, in Greek Τυμβος Τουμπα Tymbos Toumba

Πηγη Αρτεμιδος Pigi Artmemidos
Same things there also, Both burial buildings,

Athens The Tumuli of the Marathon Warriors.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Tumulusmarathon.JPG/1280px-Tumulusmarathon.JPG

WHAT NOW, Marathon warriors tomb is Tumuli,
IS THAT ILLYRIAN MARK TO YOU? ATHENEANS WERE ILLYRIANS CAUSED OF TUMULI USAGE?






And special to you
HOMERS ILLIAD
The Most known Mycenean world descriptions
the most vivid Mycenean word culture,
All we need to know about Myceneans

The Funeral ritual of Patroklos is according Tumulus
SO MYCENEANS KNEW TUMULUS.
in fact in Pigi Artemidos are each next to other.

Now Go and find and read ISBN-13 978 960 524 3937

Btw
The city of Orpheas the Thracian Λειβηθρα of the Thracian tribe Pieroi, Leivethra is about 10 Km North of the place you describe.
the Mycenean dwellings are 5 km North,
and the is an arque about the Herakleides town Ηρακλεια, which is for other the Mycenean dwellings
or more North about 17 km

What is so strange to you?
that Myceneans knew and used Tumuli?
That Brygians also knew Tumuli?
That Makedonians use both types for Burial customs?
or that Makedonians and Brygians lived side by side?

Period
better ask for your shelf, to forgive you, and then go to a pychologist for empathy with 'Illyromania'

Bye bye,
nor Greeks, nor Illyrians, nor Thracians, create world, or language,

to you

https://i.imgur.com/WvPVD1f.png

Notice it,
and compare it with this

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png/300px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png



FIT PERFECT.



You have to understand

1) that Makedonians assimilated the remnants of Bryges,
while the last of them were the Mygdonians.

2) Proto-greek evolute to NW Greek dialects as called and are primitive forms closer to LPIE
notice primitive Διος to Θεος, Βερενικα instead Φερενικη etc
before go to South Greece, and return back as Attic to make Koine in Makedonia and expand to Hellenistic
the term Dios Dias has no meaning in koine, due to evolute to Theos but means God in NW dialects, one of them Makedonian,

johen
07-05-19, 07:18
Again for the members of this forum Mycenaean (Greek speakers Linear B 1450 BC) related to Seima -Turbino Culture.


What do you mean? can you tell me more specifically?

I knew the SM culture reached Balkan area, but Mycenaean. And the SM culture expanded into iberia and british isle late bronze age.

My only clue is there shield shape is similar to artifact of copper hoard in india, which I think originated in the SM.
looks like they have one long braid like Aryan.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c1/Hirschfeld_Workshop_Terracotta_Krater_ca_750-735_bce_by_alkalisoaps_on_flickr.png
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/Ind_cu_hoard_groups.svg

blevins13
07-05-19, 14:31
I mean this :
Greek Branch of R1a
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek


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blevins13
07-05-19, 14:44
Again we are at 1,500 BC

blevins13
07-05-19, 14:53
Don't put words in my mouth
how typical of a propaganda lie

Read this

ISBN-13 978 960 524 3937

and this

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/16/Bin_Tepe%2C_large_tumulus.jpg/330px-Bin_Tepe%2C_large_tumulus.jpg


The Brygian Tumuli in Lydia,
Brygians were next door people of Makedonians
and Used Tumulus also, in Greek Τυμβος Τουμπα Tymbos Toumba

Πηγη Αρτεμιδος Pigi Artmemidos
Same things there also, Both burial buildings,

Athens The Tumuli of the Marathon Warriors.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Tumulusmarathon.JPG/1280px-Tumulusmarathon.JPG

WHAT NOW, Marathon warriors tomb is Tumuli,
IS THAT ILLYRIAN MARK TO YOU? ATHENEANS WERE ILLYRIANS CAUSED OF TUMULI USAGE?






And special to you
HOMERS ILLIAD
The Most known Mycenean world descriptions
the most vivid Mycenean word culture,
All we need to know about Myceneans

The Funeral ritual of Patroklos is according Tumulus
SO MYCENEANS KNEW TUMULUS.
in fact in Pigi Artemidos are each next to other.

Now Go and find and read ISBN-13 978 960 524 3937

Btw
The city of Orpheas the Thracian Λειβηθρα of the Thracian tribe Pieroi, Leivethra is about 10 Km North of the place you describe.
the Mycenean dwellings are 5 km North,
and the is an arque about the Herakleides town Ηρακλεια, which is for other the Mycenean dwellings
or more North about 17 km

What is so strange to you?
that Myceneans knew and used Tumuli?
That Brygians also knew Tumuli?
That Makedonians use both types for Burial customs?
or that Makedonians and Brygians lived side by side?

Period
better ask for your shelf, to forgive you, and then go to a pychologist for empathy with 'Illyromania'

Bye bye,
nor Greeks, nor Illyrians, nor Thracians, create world, or language,

to you

https://i.imgur.com/WvPVD1f.png

Notice it,
and compare it with this

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fd/Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png/300px-Proto_Greek_Area_reconstruction.png



FIT PERFECT.



You have to understand

1) that Makedonians assimilated the remnants of Bryges,
while the last of them were the Mygdonians.

2) Proto-greek evolute to NW Greek dialects as called and are primitive forms closer to LPIE
notice primitive Διος to Θεος, Βερενικα instead Φερενικη etc
before go to South Greece, and return back as Attic to make Koine in Makedonia and expand to Hellenistic
the term Dios Dias has no meaning in koine, due to evolute to Theos but means God in NW dialects, one of them Makedonian,








No one wants to put anything on your mouth. You said this right, or deny it if you want , people change their mind all the time.

11002

Again we are at 1,500 B.C
Show me academic research that relates tumulus burial to Mycenaean on this time or before that in Greece. Properly reference name of the scientist name of the scientific article and page. No need for photos and videos this is not Facebook or instagram.


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Yetos
07-05-19, 14:58
I mean this :
Greek Branch of R1a
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek


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hm

Now from the Illyrian marks of your opinion?
to Seima Turbino and Tumuli Stepe or Illyrian
we went to R1a ?

So IF YOUR OPINION IS CORRECT, About Illyrian Tumuli on Makedonia
THEN WHAT? R1a is ILLYRIAN MARK?

you learn to sneak well,


LOOK what you write.


blevins13[/B];574579]Tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of Illyrians) in Macedonia close to Mount Olympus before Mycenaean expansion.


https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Paraskevi_Tritsaroli/publication/321866757_The_Pigi_Athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_Burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_Br onze_Age_central_Macedonia_Greece/links/5b2e63baa6fdcc8506c3edde/The-Pigi-Athinas-tumuli-cemetery-of-macedonian-olympus-Burial-customs-and-the-bioarchaeology-of-social-structures-at-the-dawn-of-the-late-Bronze-Age-central-Macedonia-Greece.pdf?origin=publication_detail


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From that you went to Seima Turbino
and now to R1a

Sneaking to hide!!!!
avoid answer, via attacking policy,
typical propaganda train and step by step on the books of Arthur Schopenhauer .
easy recognised tactics for spreading mud, when you don't have right on your side.

HOMER ILLIAD,
MYCENEAN USED TUMULI
PATROKLOS FUNERAL

Yetos
07-05-19, 15:07
No one wants to put anything on your mouth. You said this right, or deny it if you want , people change their mind all the time.

11002

Again we are at 1,500 B.C
Show me academic research that relates tumulus burial to Mycenaean on this time or before that in Greece. Properly reference name of the scientist name of the scientific article and page. No need for photos and videos this is not Facebook or instagram.


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Yes you do

NO NEED TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING,

HOMER IN HIS ILIAD IS CLEAR,

AS ALSO THE TOMB OF MARATHON WARRIORS


Now go back and realize what you see, what you read, and what you post
and then to a psycologist for Illyromania.

and before you do these,

find out how Vucedol-Vatin worked on IE split of languages, groups etc
you can read it in ISBN 978 960 524 3937,

No matter I have some precautions about due to arque with steppe primary origin of IE language
if you are following Antony's etc steppe thery, then fits perfect to explain your 'questions'

LABERIA
07-05-19, 15:15
Nice photo but this is not facebook..:: I do not understand all this huff and puff from your side since you agree with me that Kurgan does not fit with Greece. 10999


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:thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:

Hemmm, Interesting!!!

BTW, blevin, AFTER YOU POST AN ATTACHMENT, open the image in a new page then edit the post and insert the image following the normale procedure:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10999&d=1557186728
You see?

:16::25::16::25:

blevins13
07-05-19, 15:26
Yes you do

NO NEED TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING,

HOMER IN HIS ILIAD IS CLEAR,

AS ALSO THE TOMB OF MARATHON WARRIORS


Now go back and realize what you see, what you read, and what you post
and then to a psycologist for Illyromania.

Again I repeat it I don’t want to put anything on your mouth [emoji105].

Even Hammond would not dare to say that Patroclus was Mycenaean.

Post academic research were they say that Patroclus was Mycenaean. Now we are at 1200 BC.


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Yetos
07-05-19, 15:32
Again I repeat it I don’t want to put anything on your mouth [emoji105].

Even Hammond would not dare to say that Patroclus was Mycenaean.

Post academic research were they say that Patroclus was Mycenaean. Now we are at 1200 BC.


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so at Troyan war, were not the Myceneans?

blevins13
07-05-19, 15:34
Yes you do

NO NEED TO SHOW YOU SOMETHING,

HOMER IN HIS ILIAD IS CLEAR,

AS ALSO THE TOMB OF MARATHON WARRIORS


Now go back and realize what you see, what you read, and what you post
and then to a psycologist for Illyromania.

and before you do these,

find out how Vucedol-Vatin worked on IE split of languages, groups etc
you can read it in ISBN 978 960 524 3937,

No matter I have some precautions about due to arque with steppe primary origin of IE language
if you are following Antony's etc steppe thery, then fits perfect to explain your 'questions'

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
Nicholas G. L. Hammond

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.


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Yetos
07-05-19, 15:38
:thinking::thinking::thinking::thinking:

hemmm, interesting!!!

btw, blevin, after you post an attachment, open the image in a new page then edit the post and insert the image following the normale procedure:
https://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=10999&d=1557186728
you see?

:16::25::16::25:




yes indeed,

the most strong papper of anatolian farmers of colin Renfrew is Greece,
and also the most strange,
the lowest steppe admixture, yet deep ie,
and no one can explained it,

yet according the theories,
Renfrew fits most.

Rejecting Renfrew
then is south caucasos origin theories

Rejectin S Caucas
it is the Yamnaa expand and Vucedol-Vatin

All 3 theories fit,
yet the genetics show Renfrew fits better

what is your problem?
AND WHAT YOU WANT TO PROVE?

Especially someone who the most high Altaic component in Europe. :grin:





AT LEAST CAN YOU EXPLAIN/SOLVE THE PROBLEM?
OR CAN YOU GIVE US AN ANSWER,
ACCORDING THE THEORY YOU ACCEPT?
Guess Not,
Only spam crap.

:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:



BE HONEST TO YOUR SHELF ONCE
and tell us
what theory fits to a polulation of 10-15% Steppe,
but deep IE?
instead of spaming Illyromania crap

johen
07-05-19, 17:10
I mean this :
ttps://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek (https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek)



Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia).

I never know this facts.

blevins13
07-05-19, 17:41
yes indeed,

the most strong papper of anatolian farmers of colin Renfrew is Greece,
and also the most strange,
the lowest steppe admixture, yet deep ie,
and no one can explained it,

yet according the theories,
Renfrew fits most.

Rejecting Renfrew
then is south caucasos origin theories

Rejectin S Caucas
it is the Yamnaa expand and Vucedol-Vatin

All 3 theories fit,
yet the genetics show Renfrew fits better

what is your problem?
AND WHAT YOU WANT TO PROVE?

Especially someone who the most high Altaic component in Europe. :grin:





AT LEAST CAN YOU EXPLAIN/SOLVE THE PROBLEM?
OR CAN YOU GIVE US AN ANSWER,
ACCORDING THE THEORY YOU ACCEPT?
Guess Not,
Only spam crap.

:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:



BE HONEST TO YOUR SHELF ONCE
and tell us
what theory fits to a polulation of 10-15% Steppe,
but deep IE?
instead of spaming Illyromania crap




Here is your answer

Greek Branch of R1a
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

blevins13
07-05-19, 18:08
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RagnarofMacedon
07-05-19, 19:19
I can not believe how many people here are delusional , still learning history from Wikipedia , where anyone can editing texts...
You all need to understand that Winners write the History, there is newest lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl very close friend of Eugene Borza known like Macedonian Specialist, he claims like many times that Macedonians were not Greeks at all, nor by dna nor by physical characteristics, SO EUGENE BORZA ? Do you know about him and Prof Keneth KARL ? Im studiying History and in this world name like Eugene is very respecfull ,also lectures by his friends and collegues and please go around me with these Texts,if you want to look at real history check which books were forbidden by Vatican...

Also in this forbidden book by Vatican these is quote by Quintus Curtius Rufus , Roman historian who said that Macedonians were from slavic tribe,also thracians and illyrians.So Slavic tribes in 4-5th century have 3 names Anti,Veneti,Slavs before that on Balkan were more than 30-40 tribes with different name ( Venedi, Sloveni, Anti, Verli (Eruli), Alani (Masageti),Hiri, Skiri, Sirbi, Daki, Svedi, Fini, Prusi, Vandali, Burgundi, Goti, Ostrogoti, Vizigoti, Geti, Gepidi,Markomani, Kvadi, Poloni, Boemi, Slezi i Bugari. ), So later main name in 7th century came like Slavs , many Roman ancient historians mentioning like Sclaveni and many other names... so also there were some quotes by Quintus Curtius Rufus where he said that Slavic tribe who won in battles on territories of Europe,Asia,Africa were known like "Vandali, Burgundioni, Gothi, Ostrogothi, Visigothi, Gepidi, Geti, Alani, Verli (Eruli), Avari,Scyrri, Hyrri, Melanchleni, Bastarni, Peuci, Daci, Suedi, Normanni, Fenni (Finni), Uchri (Uncrani),Marcomanni, Quadi, Traci (Thracians) i Illirii (Illyrians)."

Also Macedonians and Thracians are reported like reddish haired people with blue eyes...
"Several accounts by Greek writers mention redheaded people. A fragment by the poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians and Macedonians as blue-eyed and red-haired.[33]"

"Procopius described the Sclaveni and Antes as two barbarian peoples with the same institutions and customs since ancient times, not ruled by a single leader but living under democracy,[11] while Pseudo-Maurice called them a numerous people, undisciplined, unorganized and leaderless, who did not allow enslavement and conquest, and resistant to hardship, bearing all weathers.[12] They were portrayed by Procopius as unusually tall and strong, "reddish" hair (neither blond nor black), leading a primitive life and living in scattered huts, often changing their residence.[13] Procopius said they were henotheistic, believing in the god of lightning (Perun), the ruler of all, to whom they sacrificed cattle.[13] They went into battle on foot, charging straight at their enemy, armed with spears and small shields, but they did not wear armour.[13]"
"[33] The ancient peoples Budini and Sarmatians are also reported by Greek author to be blue-eyed and red-haired, and the latter even owe their names to it.[34][35]"

So we know Thracians,Macedonian were Tall people with reddish hair and blue eyes...
Most tallest people in the world are Balkans (except Greece and Albania) and Scandinavians also Netherlands.
Also if you watched the Lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl you can hear that many barbarians like Macedonians and Thracians were known like PHILHELLENE , ( "In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." )
So philhellene was terminology for NON-GREEKS who were fond of Greek culture and language, or "FRIEND OF GREEKS". Because in that time barbiarians like Macedonians,thracians,illyrians can not marry GREEKS woman , unless they accept Hellenism (Greek culture and languge) and became Philhellene, so thats one point where Phillip II Macedon became philhellene to marry Olympia ( Alexander III Macedon mother ).
Also in most famouse Macedonian dynasty "The Argead dynasty" After first name Amyntas I , there is second Alexander I Philhellene ( we explain it already term philhellene ), also one quote from Herodotus ;
"And so Alexander of Macedonia proved himself to be a good Philhellene" -Herodotus , Ancient Greek Writer.
Also Macedonians have their own language it was similar to Thracian, it is belived that their language was Balto-Slavic and is very similar to todays Macedonian,Bulgarian,Serbian...
Also many words are same or similar from Homers ILLIAD ;

Modern English ------ Modern Greek -------Modern Macedonian----------- HOMER
Greetings (Hello)------ Gyasu-----------------Zdravo------------------------------Dravikos
Dear---------------------Prosfilis----------------Mili---------------------------------Mili
Possesive-own---------Ktitos-------------------Svoi--------------------------------Svos
With---------------------Me----------------------So-----------------------------------Sun
Shake-------------------Dono,seio--------------Tresi--------------------------------Tresi
Wood-------------------Ksilo--------------------Drvo--------------------------------Druos
Madness-rage---------Apotomo,parafrom---Luta(fe),Lut(male)----------------Luta
Here--------------------Edo---------------------Ovde--------------------------------Ode
Lay-put to bed--------palagase,stroma-------Legni,Leglo------------------------Leglo
Come on---------------Lipon-------------------Ajde---------------------------------Aijde
To remember----------Min ksexnas----------Pamti--------------------------------Pamti(s)
Song-------------------Tragudao,traguda-----Pesma,Pesna------------------------Asma
To keep to hold-------Sto hari----------------Vo raka------------------------------Eruko
In good spirit---------Kalos-------------------Aren---------------------------------Arin
To beat by force-----Derno,dernis,derni----Biya,bie-----------------------------Biya,bie
My proof-------------Apadoksis--------------Dokaz moy-------------------------Doko moi
Knowing,skilfull----Eksipnos---------------Itri,itar(single)----------------------Idri
Journey,trip,walking-Vadizi,Ekdromi------Odi,odenye--------------------------Odeia
Something sayed-----(to) Ipan--------------Recheno------------------------------Recos
To contair,cover------Sfingi-----------------Stega----------------------------------Stego
To rub-----------------Yaleyfo----------------Trie-----------------------------------Trio
Groaning-------------Vongizi-----------------Stenka--------------------------------Steno
Baren(old)-------------Agonos---------------Staro----------------------------------Stero
To lead----------------Serni,Liveray---------Vodi-----------------------------------Vadino
To Streach------------Travai------------------Tegni----------------------------------Teino
Eye--------------------Mati,oftalmos---------Oko-----------------------------------Okkos
To eyes----------------Mataja,oftaimi-------Ochi-----------------------------------Ochi
Small cub-------------Levis------------------Kotle----------------------------------Kotule
No---------------------Ohi---------------------Ne-------------------------------------Me
If-----------------------Ean--------------------Ako------------------------------------Ayke
Mother---------------Mitera------------------Mayka---------------------------------Maya
Mine------------------Dikomu---------------Moi-------------------------------------Moi
Spark-----------------Spotha-----------------Iskra------------------------------------Iska'a
Brother in law-------Yinikadelfos----------Dever----------------------------------Daer


And many other , also i can compare you Balto-Slavic Lithuanian-Latvian with Thracian...
Also i want to know educational degree linked with this topic , what educational degree you all have? Thanks
And please watch the Lecture on youtube , "The ethnicity of Macedonians" ...
Thanks....

blevins13
07-05-19, 20:16
I can not believe how many people here are delusional , still learning history from Wikipedia , where anyone can editing texts...
You all need to understand that Winners write the History, there is newest lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl very close friend of Eugene Borza known like Macedonian Specialist, he claims like many times that Macedonians were not Greeks at all, nor by dna nor by physical characteristics, SO EUGENE BORZA ? Do you know about him and Prof Keneth KARL ? Im studiying History and in this world name like Eugene is very respecfull ,also lectures by his friends and collegues and please go around me with these Texts,if you want to look at real history check which books were forbidden by Vatican...

Also in this forbidden book by Vatican these is quote by Quintus Curtius Rufus , Roman historian who said that Macedonians were from slavic tribe,also thracians and illyrians.So Slavic tribes in 4-5th century have 3 names Anti,Veneti,Slavs before that on Balkan were more than 30-40 tribes with different name ( Venedi, Sloveni, Anti, Verli (Eruli), Alani (Masageti),Hiri, Skiri, Sirbi, Daki, Svedi, Fini, Prusi, Vandali, Burgundi, Goti, Ostrogoti, Vizigoti, Geti, Gepidi,Markomani, Kvadi, Poloni, Boemi, Slezi i Bugari. ), So later main name in 7th century came like Slavs , many Roman ancient historians mentioning like Sclaveni and many other names... so also there were some quotes by Quintus Curtius Rufus where he said that Slavic tribe who won in battles on territories of Europe,Asia,Africa were known like "Vandali, Burgundioni, Gothi, Ostrogothi, Visigothi, Gepidi, Geti, Alani, Verli (Eruli), Avari,Scyrri, Hyrri, Melanchleni, Bastarni, Peuci, Daci, Suedi, Normanni, Fenni (Finni), Uchri (Uncrani),Marcomanni, Quadi, Traci (Thracians) i Illirii (Illyrians)."

Also Macedonians and Thracians are reported like reddish haired people with blue eyes...
"Several accounts by Greek writers mention redheaded people. A fragment by the poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians and Macedonians as blue-eyed and red-haired.[33]"

"Procopius described the Sclaveni and Antes as two barbarian peoples with the same institutions and customs since ancient times, not ruled by a single leader but living under democracy,[11] while Pseudo-Maurice called them a numerous people, undisciplined, unorganized and leaderless, who did not allow enslavement and conquest, and resistant to hardship, bearing all weathers.[12] They were portrayed by Procopius as unusually tall and strong, "reddish" hair (neither blond nor black), leading a primitive life and living in scattered huts, often changing their residence.[13] Procopius said they were henotheistic, believing in the god of lightning (Perun), the ruler of all, to whom they sacrificed cattle.[13] They went into battle on foot, charging straight at their enemy, armed with spears and small shields, but they did not wear armour.[13]"
"[33] The ancient peoples Budini and Sarmatians are also reported by Greek author to be blue-eyed and red-haired, and the latter even owe their names to it.[34][35]"

So we know Thracians,Macedonian were Tall people with reddish hair and blue eyes...
Most tallest people in the world are Balkans (except Greece and Albania) and Scandinavians also Netherlands.
Also if you watched the Lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl you can hear that many barbarians like Macedonians and Thracians were known like PHILHELLENE , ( "In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." )
So philhellene was terminology for NON-GREEKS who were fond of Greek culture and language, or "FRIEND OF GREEKS". Because in that time barbiarians like Macedonians,thracians,illyrians can not marry GREEKS woman , unless they accept Hellenism (Greek culture and languge) and became Philhellene, so thats one point where Phillip II Macedon became philhellene to marry Olympia ( Alexander III Macedon mother ).
Also in most famouse Macedonian dynasty "The Argead dynasty" After first name Amyntas I , there is second Alexander I Philhellene ( we explain it already term philhellene ), also one quote from Herodotus ;
"And so Alexander of Macedonia proved himself to be a good Philhellene" -Herodotus , Ancient Greek Writer.
Also Macedonians have their own language it was similar to Thracian, it is belived that their language was Balto-Slavic and is very similar to todays Macedonian,Bulgarian,Serbian...
Also many words are same or similar from Homers ILLIAD ;

Modern English ------ Modern Greek -------Modern Macedonian----------- HOMER
Greetings (Hello)------ Gyasu-----------------Zdravo------------------------------Dravikos
Dear---------------------Prosfilis----------------Mili---------------------------------Mili
Possesive-own---------Ktitos-------------------Svoi--------------------------------Svos
With---------------------Me----------------------So-----------------------------------Sun
Shake-------------------Dono,seio--------------Tresi--------------------------------Tresi
Wood-------------------Ksilo--------------------Drvo--------------------------------Druos
Madness-rage---------Apotomo,parafrom---Luta(fe),Lut(male)----------------Luta
Here--------------------Edo---------------------Ovde--------------------------------Ode
Lay-put to bed--------palagase,stroma-------Legni,Leglo------------------------Leglo
Come on---------------Lipon-------------------Ajde---------------------------------Aijde
To remember----------Min ksexnas----------Pamti--------------------------------Pamti(s)
Song-------------------Tragudao,traguda-----Pesma,Pesna------------------------Asma
To keep to hold-------Sto hari----------------Vo raka------------------------------Eruko
In good spirit---------Kalos-------------------Aren---------------------------------Arin
To beat by force-----Derno,dernis,derni----Biya,bie-----------------------------Biya,bie
My proof-------------Apadoksis--------------Dokaz moy-------------------------Doko moi
Knowing,skilfull----Eksipnos---------------Itri,itar(single)----------------------Idri
Journey,trip,walking-Vadizi,Ekdromi------Odi,odenye--------------------------Odeia
Something sayed-----(to) Ipan--------------Recheno------------------------------Recos
To contair,cover------Sfingi-----------------Stega----------------------------------Stego
To rub-----------------Yaleyfo----------------Trie-----------------------------------Trio
Groaning-------------Vongizi-----------------Stenka--------------------------------Steno
Baren(old)-------------Agonos---------------Staro----------------------------------Stero
To lead----------------Serni,Liveray---------Vodi-----------------------------------Vadino
To Streach------------Travai------------------Tegni----------------------------------Teino
Eye--------------------Mati,oftalmos---------Oko-----------------------------------Okkos
To eyes----------------Mataja,oftaimi-------Ochi-----------------------------------Ochi
Small cub-------------Levis------------------Kotle----------------------------------Kotule
No---------------------Ohi---------------------Ne-------------------------------------Me
If-----------------------Ean--------------------Ako------------------------------------Ayke
Mother---------------Mitera------------------Mayka---------------------------------Maya
Mine------------------Dikomu---------------Moi-------------------------------------Moi
Spark-----------------Spotha-----------------Iskra------------------------------------Iska'a
Brother in law-------Yinikadelfos----------Dever----------------------------------Daer


And many other , also i can compare you Balto-Slavic Lithuanian-Latvian with Thracian...
Also i want to know educational degree linked with this topic , what educational degree you all have? Thanks
And please watch the Lecture on youtube , "The ethnicity of Macedonians" ...
Thanks....

This is another view that deserves consideration.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Yetos
07-05-19, 20:25
I can not believe how many people here are delusional , still learning history from Wikipedia , where anyone can editing texts...
You all need to understand that Winners write the History, there is newest lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl very close friend of Eugene Borza known like Macedonian Specialist, he claims like many times that Macedonians were not Greeks at all, nor by dna nor by physical characteristics, SO EUGENE BORZA ? Do you know about him and Prof Keneth KARL ? Im studiying History and in this world name like Eugene is very respecfull ,also lectures by his friends and collegues and please go around me with these Texts,if you want to look at real history check which books were forbidden by Vatican...

Also in this forbidden book by Vatican these is quote by Quintus Curtius Rufus , Roman historian who said that Macedonians were from slavic tribe,also thracians and illyrians.So Slavic tribes in 4-5th century have 3 names Anti,Veneti,Slavs before that on Balkan were more than 30-40 tribes with different name ( Venedi, Sloveni, Anti, Verli (Eruli), Alani (Masageti),Hiri, Skiri, Sirbi, Daki, Svedi, Fini, Prusi, Vandali, Burgundi, Goti, Ostrogoti, Vizigoti, Geti, Gepidi,Markomani, Kvadi, Poloni, Boemi, Slezi i Bugari. ), So later main name in 7th century came like Slavs , many Roman ancient historians mentioning like Sclaveni and many other names... so also there were some quotes by Quintus Curtius Rufus where he said that Slavic tribe who won in battles on territories of Europe,Asia,Africa were known like "Vandali, Burgundioni, Gothi, Ostrogothi, Visigothi, Gepidi, Geti, Alani, Verli (Eruli), Avari,Scyrri, Hyrri, Melanchleni, Bastarni, Peuci, Daci, Suedi, Normanni, Fenni (Finni), Uchri (Uncrani),Marcomanni, Quadi, Traci (Thracians) i Illirii (Illyrians)."

Also Macedonians and Thracians are reported like reddish haired people with blue eyes...
"Several accounts by Greek writers mention redheaded people. A fragment by the poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians and Macedonians as blue-eyed and red-haired.[33]"

"Procopius described the Sclaveni and Antes as two barbarian peoples with the same institutions and customs since ancient times, not ruled by a single leader but living under democracy,[11] while Pseudo-Maurice called them a numerous people, undisciplined, unorganized and leaderless, who did not allow enslavement and conquest, and resistant to hardship, bearing all weathers.[12] They were portrayed by Procopius as unusually tall and strong, "reddish" hair (neither blond nor black), leading a primitive life and living in scattered huts, often changing their residence.[13] Procopius said they were henotheistic, believing in the god of lightning (Perun), the ruler of all, to whom they sacrificed cattle.[13] They went into battle on foot, charging straight at their enemy, armed with spears and small shields, but they did not wear armour.[13]"
"[33] The ancient peoples Budini and Sarmatians are also reported by Greek author to be blue-eyed and red-haired, and the latter even owe their names to it.[34][35]"

So we know Thracians,Macedonian were Tall people with reddish hair and blue eyes...
Most tallest people in the world are Balkans (except Greece and Albania) and Scandinavians also Netherlands.
Also if you watched the Lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl you can hear that many barbarians like Macedonians and Thracians were known like PHILHELLENE , ( "In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." )
So philhellene was terminology for NON-GREEKS who were fond of Greek culture and language, or "FRIEND OF GREEKS". Because in that time barbiarians like Macedonians,thracians,illyrians can not marry GREEKS woman , unless they accept Hellenism (Greek culture and languge) and became Philhellene, so thats one point where Phillip II Macedon became philhellene to marry Olympia ( Alexander III Macedon mother ).
Also in most famouse Macedonian dynasty "The Argead dynasty" After first name Amyntas I , there is second Alexander I Philhellene ( we explain it already term philhellene ), also one quote from Herodotus ;
"And so Alexander of Macedonia proved himself to be a good Philhellene" -Herodotus , Ancient Greek Writer.
Also Macedonians have their own language it was similar to Thracian, it is belived that their language was Balto-Slavic and is very similar to todays Macedonian,Bulgarian,Serbian...
Also many words are same or similar from Homers ILLIAD ;

Modern English ------ Modern Greek -------Modern Macedonian----------- HOMER
Greetings (Hello)------ Gyasu-----------------Zdravo------------------------------Dravikos
Dear---------------------Prosfilis----------------Mili---------------------------------Mili
Possesive-own---------Ktitos-------------------Svoi--------------------------------Svos
With---------------------Me----------------------So-----------------------------------Sun
Shake-------------------Dono,seio--------------Tresi--------------------------------Tresi
Wood-------------------Ksilo--------------------Drvo--------------------------------Druos
Madness-rage---------Apotomo,parafrom---Luta(fe),Lut(male)----------------Luta
Here--------------------Edo---------------------Ovde--------------------------------Ode
Lay-put to bed--------palagase,stroma-------Legni,Leglo------------------------Leglo
Come on---------------Lipon-------------------Ajde---------------------------------Aijde
To remember----------Min ksexnas----------Pamti--------------------------------Pamti(s)
Song-------------------Tragudao,traguda-----Pesma,Pesna------------------------Asma
To keep to hold-------Sto hari----------------Vo raka------------------------------Eruko
In good spirit---------Kalos-------------------Aren---------------------------------Arin
To beat by force-----Derno,dernis,derni----Biya,bie-----------------------------Biya,bie
My proof-------------Apadoksis--------------Dokaz moy-------------------------Doko moi
Knowing,skilfull----Eksipnos---------------Itri,itar(single)----------------------Idri
Journey,trip,walking-Vadizi,Ekdromi------Odi,odenye--------------------------Odeia
Something sayed-----(to) Ipan--------------Recheno------------------------------Recos
To contair,cover------Sfingi-----------------Stega----------------------------------Stego
To rub-----------------Yaleyfo----------------Trie-----------------------------------Trio
Groaning-------------Vongizi-----------------Stenka--------------------------------Steno
Baren(old)-------------Agonos---------------Staro----------------------------------Stero
To lead----------------Serni,Liveray---------Vodi-----------------------------------Vadino
To Streach------------Travai------------------Tegni----------------------------------Teino
Eye--------------------Mati,oftalmos---------Oko-----------------------------------Okkos
To eyes----------------Mataja,oftaimi-------Ochi-----------------------------------Ochi
Small cub-------------Levis------------------Kotle----------------------------------Kotule
No---------------------Ohi---------------------Ne-------------------------------------Me
If-----------------------Ean--------------------Ako------------------------------------Ayke
Mother---------------Mitera------------------Mayka---------------------------------Maya
Mine------------------Dikomu---------------Moi-------------------------------------Moi
Spark-----------------Spotha-----------------Iskra------------------------------------Iska'a
Brother in law-------Yinikadelfos----------Dever----------------------------------Daer


And many other , also i can compare you Balto-Slavic Lithuanian-Latvian with Thracian...
Also i want to know educational degree linked with this topic , what educational degree you all have? Thanks
And please watch the Lecture on youtube , "The ethnicity of Macedonians" ...
Thanks....


First learn correct Greek Language,
Then Learn The Homeric correct
And the search how coorect are these you Post,
Simply ridiculous,
Nothing to do with Homeric and Greek
your post is a cheap work, made in a toilet, speculaof falsification which in purpose uses other form of Greek language of the correct, as also facultates Homeric,
and has nothing to Do with Greek and Homeric

Offcourse the next by you is that Homer spoke Slavic, :bored:
how boring


For example the before the last Iska
Greek Ισκα
Latin esca
Galician Isca
Albanian eshke

what has Iska to do with spark?
Iska is an exctract of mushroom used to open fire by sparks,
Spotha? the man who wrote this, does even copy Greek correct,

ridiculous

LABERIA
07-05-19, 21:33
Most tallest people in the world are Balkans (except Greece and Albania) and Scandinavians also Netherlands.
Especially the NM are famous for being tall.

Dibran
07-05-19, 21:35
This is another view that deserves consideration.


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Not really. Nothing he said has a complete basis. Proto-Balto-Slavic was said to be related to possibly Proto-Dacian and Proto-Thracian. Proto-Thracian is not the same as thracian. Neither is Proto-Balto-Slavic the same as Slavic. The further you go back especially to the Proto-Balto-Slavic union, the difference with other indo european branches are far less so than is the case today. Also none of the thracians or illyrians discovered, or the ancient Greeks, had any I2a-Din/or R1a Z280/M458. The only R1a was the bronze age thracian. Even then, no one belongs to that branch. Certainly not common in Slavs any ways. From a a paternal Y standpoint, So far Slavs are not connected to any of them. Only very anciently with the M417 split with the Z93 Thracian. Also, from a autosomal standpoint, the illyrians and Thracians were Italian,Albanian Greek like. Less in the case of Balkan Slavs, and near non-existent in West or East Slavs.

What is more probable and likely is that Proto-Balto-Slavs were closer to the Proto-Thracians and Proto-Dacians before they left the steppes. Proto-Balto-Slavs were likely akin to Proto-Thracians and Proto-Dacians, representing northern cousins that never migrated to the Balkans. Only with the fragile state of Rome, and the collapse of these peoples did the Sklaveni migrate South. They likely were always dealing with Daco-Thracians on the far northern border with them. Also, Most scholars acknowledge not all Illyrians were homogenous. They also likely were not linguistically connected in a recent sense either. Possibly branching out from the rest with the breakup of Indo-European.

Perhaps some Geto-Dacians/Free Dacians that migrated north of the Danube formed a base for what would become Proto-Slavic. But in all likliehood they're distantly related and are merely northern cousins of the Thracians and Dacians, not those people themselves. Genetics/Archaeology will trump propaganda every time. So far Illyrians were R1b/J2/V13(all found predominantly in Albanians), Proto-Greeks were J2a, predominantly found in Greeks, and R1a-Z93 in a Bronze Age, likely Proto-Thracian grave(which is not recently related to Balto-Slavic Z280/M458 but distantly(5-6 thousand ypb).

No one can deny South Slavs have Paleo-Balkan heritage, both autosomally, and through Y chromosome. Especially Bulgarians/Macedonians. However, to say All these paleo-balkan people were Slavic and further from Albanians and Greeks is about as propagandized as you can get. Whats more correct is that Proto-Balto-Slavs were ancestral cousins of Proto-Thracians/Proto-Dacians, only migrating as Proto-Slavs from the north much later, as opposed to their distant southern kin, who left the steppe before many of these lineages differentiated themselves.

markod
07-05-19, 22:21
I can not believe how many people here are delusional , still learning history from Wikipedia , where anyone can editing texts...
You all need to understand that Winners write the History, there is newest lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl very close friend of Eugene Borza known like Macedonian Specialist, he claims like many times that Macedonians were not Greeks at all, nor by dna nor by physical characteristics, SO EUGENE BORZA ? Do you know about him and Prof Keneth KARL ? Im studiying History and in this world name like Eugene is very respecfull ,also lectures by his friends and collegues and please go around me with these Texts,if you want to look at real history check which books were forbidden by Vatican...

Also in this forbidden book by Vatican these is quote by Quintus Curtius Rufus , Roman historian who said that Macedonians were from slavic tribe,also thracians and illyrians.So Slavic tribes in 4-5th century have 3 names Anti,Veneti,Slavs before that on Balkan were more than 30-40 tribes with different name ( Venedi, Sloveni, Anti, Verli (Eruli), Alani (Masageti),Hiri, Skiri, Sirbi, Daki, Svedi, Fini, Prusi, Vandali, Burgundi, Goti, Ostrogoti, Vizigoti, Geti, Gepidi,Markomani, Kvadi, Poloni, Boemi, Slezi i Bugari. ), So later main name in 7th century came like Slavs , many Roman ancient historians mentioning like Sclaveni and many other names... so also there were some quotes by Quintus Curtius Rufus where he said that Slavic tribe who won in battles on territories of Europe,Asia,Africa were known like "Vandali, Burgundioni, Gothi, Ostrogothi, Visigothi, Gepidi, Geti, Alani, Verli (Eruli), Avari,Scyrri, Hyrri, Melanchleni, Bastarni, Peuci, Daci, Suedi, Normanni, Fenni (Finni), Uchri (Uncrani),Marcomanni, Quadi, Traci (Thracians) i Illirii (Illyrians)."

Also Macedonians and Thracians are reported like reddish haired people with blue eyes...
"Several accounts by Greek writers mention redheaded people. A fragment by the poet Xenophanes describes the Thracians and Macedonians as blue-eyed and red-haired.[33]"

"Procopius described the Sclaveni and Antes as two barbarian peoples with the same institutions and customs since ancient times, not ruled by a single leader but living under democracy,[11] while Pseudo-Maurice called them a numerous people, undisciplined, unorganized and leaderless, who did not allow enslavement and conquest, and resistant to hardship, bearing all weathers.[12] They were portrayed by Procopius as unusually tall and strong, "reddish" hair (neither blond nor black), leading a primitive life and living in scattered huts, often changing their residence.[13] Procopius said they were henotheistic, believing in the god of lightning (Perun), the ruler of all, to whom they sacrificed cattle.[13] They went into battle on foot, charging straight at their enemy, armed with spears and small shields, but they did not wear armour.[13]"
"[33] The ancient peoples Budini and Sarmatians are also reported by Greek author to be blue-eyed and red-haired, and the latter even owe their names to it.[34][35]"

So we know Thracians,Macedonian were Tall people with reddish hair and blue eyes...
Most tallest people in the world are Balkans (except Greece and Albania) and Scandinavians also Netherlands.
Also if you watched the Lecture by Prof.Keneth W.Karl you can hear that many barbarians like Macedonians and Thracians were known like PHILHELLENE , ( "In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." )
So philhellene was terminology for NON-GREEKS who were fond of Greek culture and language, or "FRIEND OF GREEKS". Because in that time barbiarians like Macedonians,thracians,illyrians can not marry GREEKS woman , unless they accept Hellenism (Greek culture and languge) and became Philhellene, so thats one point where Phillip II Macedon became philhellene to marry Olympia ( Alexander III Macedon mother ).
Also in most famouse Macedonian dynasty "The Argead dynasty" After first name Amyntas I , there is second Alexander I Philhellene ( we explain it already term philhellene ), also one quote from Herodotus ;
"And so Alexander of Macedonia proved himself to be a good Philhellene" -Herodotus , Ancient Greek Writer.
Also Macedonians have their own language it was similar to Thracian, it is belived that their language was Balto-Slavic and is very similar to todays Macedonian,Bulgarian,Serbian...
Also many words are same or similar from Homers ILLIAD ;

Modern English ------ Modern Greek -------Modern Macedonian----------- HOMER
Greetings (Hello)------ Gyasu-----------------Zdravo------------------------------Dravikos
Dear---------------------Prosfilis----------------Mili---------------------------------Mili
Possesive-own---------Ktitos-------------------Svoi--------------------------------Svos
With---------------------Me----------------------So-----------------------------------Sun
Shake-------------------Dono,seio--------------Tresi--------------------------------Tresi
Wood-------------------Ksilo--------------------Drvo--------------------------------Druos
Madness-rage---------Apotomo,parafrom---Luta(fe),Lut(male)----------------Luta
Here--------------------Edo---------------------Ovde--------------------------------Ode
Lay-put to bed--------palagase,stroma-------Legni,Leglo------------------------Leglo
Come on---------------Lipon-------------------Ajde---------------------------------Aijde
To remember----------Min ksexnas----------Pamti--------------------------------Pamti(s)
Song-------------------Tragudao,traguda-----Pesma,Pesna------------------------Asma
To keep to hold-------Sto hari----------------Vo raka------------------------------Eruko
In good spirit---------Kalos-------------------Aren---------------------------------Arin
To beat by force-----Derno,dernis,derni----Biya,bie-----------------------------Biya,bie
My proof-------------Apadoksis--------------Dokaz moy-------------------------Doko moi
Knowing,skilfull----Eksipnos---------------Itri,itar(single)----------------------Idri
Journey,trip,walking-Vadizi,Ekdromi------Odi,odenye--------------------------Odeia
Something sayed-----(to) Ipan--------------Recheno------------------------------Recos
To contair,cover------Sfingi-----------------Stega----------------------------------Stego
To rub-----------------Yaleyfo----------------Trie-----------------------------------Trio
Groaning-------------Vongizi-----------------Stenka--------------------------------Steno
Baren(old)-------------Agonos---------------Staro----------------------------------Stero
To lead----------------Serni,Liveray---------Vodi-----------------------------------Vadino
To Streach------------Travai------------------Tegni----------------------------------Teino
Eye--------------------Mati,oftalmos---------Oko-----------------------------------Okkos
To eyes----------------Mataja,oftaimi-------Ochi-----------------------------------Ochi
Small cub-------------Levis------------------Kotle----------------------------------Kotule
No---------------------Ohi---------------------Ne-------------------------------------Me
If-----------------------Ean--------------------Ako------------------------------------Ayke
Mother---------------Mitera------------------Mayka---------------------------------Maya
Mine------------------Dikomu---------------Moi-------------------------------------Moi
Spark-----------------Spotha-----------------Iskra------------------------------------Iska'a
Brother in law-------Yinikadelfos----------Dever----------------------------------Daer


And many other , also i can compare you Balto-Slavic Lithuanian-Latvian with Thracian...
Also i want to know educational degree linked with this topic , what educational degree you all have? Thanks
And please watch the Lecture on youtube , "The ethnicity of Macedonians" ...
Thanks....

Lol, Slavic Macedonians. You are insane.

Yetos
07-05-19, 22:27
Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
Nicholas G. L. Hammond

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.


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HOW PATHETIC

BEFORE YOU SAID TO US ABOUT TUMULUS IN OLYMP at 1500 BC
AND NOW YOU TELL US THAT WAS USED ONLY IN ALBANIA AND NORTH
YET THE TUMULI CHANGE and Continue after 1500 AND ARE Primary IN ALL MAKEDONIAN Necropolis, and in many other parts of Helladic space.
even after Alexander we found the evolution of Tumuli

Simply pathetic Blevins

Tumuli ONLY IN ALBANIA !!!!!!!
NOT even to be taken serious.

Yetos
07-05-19, 22:32
Blevins I do not know where you found about Seima Turbino

I GIVE YOU THIS

The language of the Catacomb culture must naturally remain unknown. Within the context of the Kurgan hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis) expounded by Marija Gimbutas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marija_Gimbutas), an Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) component is speculated about, particularly in the later stages. Placing the ancestors of the Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language), Albanian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language) and Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language) (perhaps Paleo-Balkan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages)) dialects here is tempting, as it would neatly explain certain shared features.

GREEKS WERE CATACOMB CULTURE.
WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS

and sing as ever you like
SEIMA-Turbino has Ydna N,
Bye bye Blevins,

blevins13
07-05-19, 23:33
HOW PATHETIC

BEFORE YOU SAID TO US ABOUT TUMULUS IN OLYMP at 1500 BC
AND NOW YOU TELL US THAT WAS USED ONLY IN ALBANIA AND NORTH
YET THE TUMULI CHANGE and Continue after 1500 AND ARE Primary IN ALL MAKEDONIAN Necropolis, and in many other parts of Helladic space.
even after Alexander we found the evolution of Tumuli

Simply pathetic Blevins

Tumuli ONLY IN ALBANIA !!!!!!!
NOT even to be taken serious.

I do not tell anything.
For the member of this forum this not my doing or writing but Hammond (1976). Read and enjoy.

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.

Here is the link as well
https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1976_num_4_1_1174

Nicholas Geoffrey Lemprière Hammond, CBE, DSO, FBA (15 November 1907 – 24 March 2001) was a British scholar of ancient Greece and an operative for the British Special Operations Executive (SOE) in occupied Greece during World War II. He excelled in his exams and also spent vacations exploring Greece and Albania on foot, acquiring knowledge of the topography and terrain, as well as fluency in Albanian. These abilities led him to be recruited by the Special Operations Executive during World War II in 1940. He published a memoir of his war service entitled Venture into Greece in 1983; he was awarded the Distinguished Service Order and the Greek Order of the Phoenix.





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blevins13
07-05-19, 23:41
Blevins I do not know where you found about Seima Turbino

I GIVE YOU THIS

The language of the Catacomb culture must naturally remain unknown. Within the context of the Kurgan hypothesis (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurgan_hypothesis) expounded by Marija Gimbutas (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marija_Gimbutas), an Indo-European (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) component is speculated about, particularly in the later stages. Placing the ancestors of the Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language), Albanian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language) and Armenian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenian_language) (perhaps Paleo-Balkan (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages)) dialects here is tempting, as it would neatly explain certain shared features.

GREEKS WERE CATACOMB CULTURE.
WHEN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS

and sing as ever you like
SEIMA-Turbino has Ydna N,
Bye bye Blevins,



Here is your answer

Greek Branch of R1a
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

But it seems that you Keep changing your mind about Greeks.....11005


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RagnarofMacedon
07-05-19, 23:55
Sure and professor Keneth W.Karl is insane and Eugene Borza and many ancient writters ,historians and orators are... You are right..
Can you tell me what educational degree you have ?

Dibran
08-05-19, 03:20
Sure and professor Keneth W.Karl is insane and Eugene Borza and many ancient writters ,historians and orators are... You are right..
Can you tell me what educational degree you have ?

You're over a decade behind. Science/DNA/Archaeology trump "historians" every time. Humans are fallible. The dead bodies and archaeological finds are not. Genetically Thracians and Illyrians proper were North Italian/Albanian/Greek like genetically. Of the Thracians discovered so far, one was E-V13(dominates in Albanians and Greeks, and lastly Bulgarians) and a Proto-Thracian who was R1a-Z93, a branch near non-existent in Slavs. Illyrians discovered thus far were R1b-L23, E1b, and a Proto-Illyrian J2b-L283. All lineages that make up more than 75-80 percent of the Albanian male population.

Slavs are predominantly R1a-Z280(found in Balto-Slavic Graves), I2a-Din(found in a Polish and Russian medieval Slav, and R1a-M458, which has one medieval West Slavic, and East German. From a genetic stand point your claims couldn't be further from the truth.

Linguistically there is no consensus Illyrians/Thracians/Dacians even spoke the same language. The Illyrians themselves appear not to be homogenous. Proto-Slavs remained in the steppe the longest out of every indo-european, and therefore had the slowest progression even in language. Parallels you notice are not literal continuations, but early indo-european language similarities.

Proto-Balto-Slavic was believed to be a NORTHERN relative of Proto-Thracian and Proto-Dacian. Not That Slavs come from Proto-Dacians/Proto-Thracians. There is a BIG difference. These peoples migrated from the steppe long before their distant northern kin came down in the middle ages, far removed from their ancient cousins.

So far, outside of Balkan Slavs, most of Slavdom DOES NOT have the paternal Y chromosome or even similar genome to Illyrians and Thracians discovered so far. You can repeat your propaganda until the cows come home, Genetics which is a far more calculated discipline contradicts you completely. Slavs are also heterogenous, and so have absorbed ancestries East to West, with Slavic operating as Lingua Franca and absorbing many admixtures along the way. Bulgarians and Macedonians for instance are closest to Greeks and then Albanians. Whereas, Slovenians and Croatians have more Slavic ancestry on average. Suggesting East Balkan Slavs acquired more paleo-balkan ancestry via assimilation tactics as opposed to the west Balkans which largely replaced a good majority of the native populace.

Your YDNA "I2a2a" was minimally found in ancient samples of the East Balkans and is most common in Albanians Greeks and Aromanians today. With a decent representation among Pomaks. By paternal descent you could well be paleo-balkan. This is not the case for most of your ancestral kin whom fall into I2a1b-Din, a near entirely slavic branch with bottlenecks and founder effects. Learn to separate facts from reality as best as possible and set your desires aside.

Yetos
08-05-19, 05:04
Here is your answer

Greek Branch of R1a
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

But it seems that you Keep changing your mind about Greeks.....11005


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With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe
the lowest Altaic component in all IE, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
Only one sample of Ydna N found until now, at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.

Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
GENNETICS SPEAK
if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas
which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics,
Then Greeks both Linguistically and gennetical Origin from Yamnaa, and Vucedol-Vatin alternative name Cetina,
This is expressed By 1928, and has archailogical evidences, Carl Blegen,
which is the descent of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin (Cetine),
in fact Cetina is also a big split, giving also Latin to West, etc
IRELAND GENETICALLY IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR SEIMA TURBINO, THAN GREECE, DUE to Altaic component

The Genetical structure of Greece, almost Palaiolithic and Neolithic mixture,
with the lowest STEPPE, and almost Zero Altaic,
Shows other Theories as primary,
Especially the Mycenean Branch Genetics Suggest rather a Neolithic origin
or a South Caucasos origin, Armenia High Lands

The R1a in Greece, and Greek world, is the only Ydna mark That may connect Greek to Baltics, As Hammond express it, (although I disagree)
and came from the possible road of Yamnaa to Vucedol-Vatin (Cetina) (Croatia/Serbia today) with descent of Greeks at 3000 BC to the area of proto-Greeks

Period,

Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw
did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
using Schopenhauer by the book, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS
THE MOST BLIND OF ALL MEMBERS,


Seima Turbino culture

TheAltai Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains)in what is now southern Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and central Mongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007-7) The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-Chernykh2008-8) Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75-9)

migrations spread the Uralic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages)across Europe and Asia.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-BBCKeys-11)

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-13) Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-14) [15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-15)

BLEVINS
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits.


SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

:useless: :useless: :useless: :useless: :useless:


Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis

Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
Nicholas G. L. Hammond
Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.




Cetina related with Mycenaean civilization come on this is a joke not Seima -Turbino. Considering also lack of R1b so far and minimal step for sure Seima - Turbino.

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Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture) vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.



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SO THIS MEMBER,
BLINDED BY ULTRA NATIONALISM.
WITH MAYBE TRAUMAS IN HIS PSYCHOLOGY.
NOW TELL US THAT MYCENEANS
WERE CONNECTED WITH ALTAI Mt (nomatter Altaic component is almost Zero) :petrified:
SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, (Mycenean is one of the most typical IE) :petrified:
WERE HEAVILY hg Ydna N (Almost 0%, only one found until now in whole Greek nation) :petrified:

:petrified: :petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

WHAT CAN SOMEONE SAY?
Except a wish for Peace of Mind.

I am sure Gods are with him,
Gods protect and take care of such guys.

you could read at least the Carl Blegen and Giannopoulos, and escape from your hell,
even read about Seima-Turbino culture.
or even trust Lazarides papper,
But No, you insisted,
may Gods protect your soul, cause mind ......
You were and asking fo it,
you scratch the sheperd's bat wrong way. :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:


Blevins the Catacomb culture, or the S Caucasos cultures were not enough for you,
you have to Go to Altaic mountains and uralic languages?
or you never of other IE cultures outside steppe?

blevins13
08-05-19, 12:44
With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe
the lowest Altaic component in all IE, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
Only one sample of Ydna N found until now, at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.

Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
GENNETICS SPEAK
if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas
which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics,
Then Greeks both Linguistically and gennetical Origin from Yamnaa, and Vucedol-Vatin alternative name Cetina,
This is expressed By 1928, and has archailogical evidences, Carl Blegen,
which is the descent of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin (Cetine),
in fact Cetina is also a big split, giving also Latin to West, etc
IRELAND GENETICALLY IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR SEIMA TURBINO, THAN GREECE, DUE to Altaic component

The Genetical structure of Greece, almost Palaiolithic and Neolithic mixture,
with the lowest STEPPE, and almost Zero Altaic,
Shows other Theories as primary,
Especially the Mycenean Branch Genetics Suggest rather a Neolithic origin
or a South Caucasos origin, Armenia High Lands

The R1a in Greece, and Greek world, is the only Ydna mark That may connect Greek to Baltics, As Hammond express it, (although I disagree)
and came from the possible road of Yamnaa to Vucedol-Vatin (Cetina) (Croatia/Serbia today) with descent of Greeks at 3000 BC to the area of proto-Greeks

Period,

Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw
did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
using Schopenhauer by the book, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS
THE MOST BLIND OF ALL MEMBERS,


Seima Turbino culture

TheAltai Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains)in what is now southern Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and central Mongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007-7) The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-Chernykh2008-8) Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75-9)

migrations spread the Uralic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages)across Europe and Asia.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-BBCKeys-11)

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-13) Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-14) [15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-15)

BLEVINS
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits.


SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

:useless: :useless: :useless: :useless: :useless:












SO THIS MEMBER,
BLINDED BY ULTRA NATIONALISM.
WITH MAYBE TRAUMAS IN HIS PSYCHOLOGY.
NOW TELL US THAT MYCENEANS
WERE CONNECTED WITH ALTAI Mt (nomatter Altaic component is almost Zero) :petrified:
SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, (Mycenean is one of the most typical IE) :petrified:
WERE HEAVILY hg Ydna N (Almost 0%, only one found until now in whole Greek nation) :petrified:

:petrified: :petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

WHAT CAN SOMEONE SAY?
Except a wish for Peace of Mind.

I am sure Gods are with him,
Gods protect and take care of such guys.

you could read at least the Carl Blegen and Giannopoulos, and escape from your hell,
even read about Seima-Turbino culture.
or even trust Lazarides papper,
But No, you insisted,
may Gods protect your soul, cause mind ......
You were and asking fo it,
you scratch the sheperd's bat wrong way. :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:


Blevins the Catacomb culture, or the S Caucasos cultures were not enough for you,
you have to Go to Altaic mountains and uralic languages?
or you never of other IE cultures outside steppe?

Again bla...bla no academic references just bitter bickering.

Metallurgy spreading with Uralic language, this would be quite a scene. However, recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-european migrations. So Seima Turbino and Mycenaeans remains a valid connection.

As for the Vucidol - Mycenaean connection, that is hard to bridge due to the following....
11006


But keep trying or Patroclus is gone and that will be quite a loss.




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Yetos
08-05-19, 14:32
again bla...bla no academic references just bitter bickering.

Metallurgy spreading with uralic language, this would be quite a scene. However, recent genetic testings of sites in south siberia and kazakhstan (andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via indo-european migrations. So seima turbino and mycenaeans remains a valid connection.

As for the vucidol - mycenaean connection, that is hard to bridge due to the following....
11006


but keep trying or patroclus is gone and that will be quite a loss.




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BYE BYE BLEVINS13

Forum members have memmory on what is published,
most are more than 2 years, before Lazarides papper,
look how many years you are,
Only Blinded by ultranationalist hate like you, can not See and ask sources, Which I am forced to wrie at bottom of post.



Here is your answer

Greek Branch of R1a
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

But it seems that you Keep changing your mind about Greeks.....11005


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With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe
the lowest Altaic component in all IE, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
Only one sample of Ydna N found until now, at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.

Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
GENNETICS SPEAK
if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas
which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics,
Then Greeks both Linguistically and gennetical Origin from Yamnaa, and Vucedol-Vatin alternative name Cetina,
This is expressed By 1928, and has archailogical evidences, Carl Blegen,
which is the descent of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin (Cetine),
in fact Cetina is also a big split, giving also Latin to West, etc
IRELAND GENETICALLY IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR SEIMA TURBINO, THAN GREECE, DUE to Altaic component

The Genetical structure of Greece, almost Palaiolithic and Neolithic mixture,
with the lowest STEPPE, and almost Zero Altaic,
Shows other Theories as primary,
Especially the Mycenean Branch Genetics Suggest rather a Neolithic origin
or a South Caucasos origin, Armenia High Lands

The R1a in Greece, and Greek world, is the only Ydna mark That may connect Greek to Baltics, As Hammond express it, (although I disagree)
and came from the possible road of Yamnaa to Vucedol-Vatin (Cetina) (Croatia/Serbia today) with descent of Greeks at 3000 BC to the area of proto-Greeks

Period,

Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw
did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
using Schopenhauer by the book, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS



Seima Turbino culture

TheAltai Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains)in what is now southern Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and central Mongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007-7) The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-Chernykh2008-8) Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75-9)

migrations spread the Uralic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages)across Europe and Asia.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-BBCKeys-11)

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-13) Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-14) [15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-15)

BLEVINS
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits.


SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

:useless: :useless: :useless: :useless: :useless:


Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis

Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
Nicholas G. L. Hammond
Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.




Cetina related with Mycenaean civilization come on this is a joke not Seima -Turbino. Considering also lack of R1b so far and minimal step for sure Seima - Turbino.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)


Mycenaean(Seima- Turbino culture) vs Illyrians (Kurgan Culture). So no, at that time only Illyrians used tumulus in the Balkans.



Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)





SO THIS MEMBER,
BLINDED BY ULTRA NATIONALISM.
WITH MAYBE TRAUMAS IN HIS PSYCHOLOGY.
NOW TELL US THAT MYCENEANS
WERE CONNECTED WITH ALTAI Mt (nomatter Altaic component is almost Zero) :petrified:
SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, (Mycenean is one of the most typical IE) :petrified:
WERE HEAVILY hg Ydna N (Almost 0%, only one found until now in whole Greek nation) :petrified:

:petrified: :petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

WHAT CAN SOMEONE SAY?
Except a wish for Peace of Mind.

I am sure Gods are with him,
Gods protect and take care of such guys.

you could read at least the Carl Blegen and Giannopoulos, and escape from your hell,
even read about Seima-Turbino culture.
or even trust Lazarides papper,
But No, you insisted,
may Gods protect your soul, cause mind ......
You were and asking fo it,
you scratch the sheperd's bat wrong way. :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:


Blevins the Catacomb culture, or the S Caucasos cultures were not enough for you,
you have to Go to Altaic mountains and uralic languages?
or you never of other IE cultures outside steppe?


a pathetic pittyfull aproach, by member Blevins13
guided by hate of ultranationalism
which with strange methods,
want us to Believe that Myceneans are steppe Altaic people,
and Spoke Uralic languages
while Lazarides papper on Myceneans is clear of S Caucasos and Armenia highlands origin
with low average 14% (10-20%) of Steppe, and Zero Altaic

BLEVINS MYCENEANS DID NOT SPOKE URALIC,
AS YOU LIKE THEM TO BE.
BYE BYE


The Academic pappers you ask


Marchenko et al. 2017 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFMarchenkoSvyatkoMolodinG rishin2017).
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007447_2-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 447.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-3) A Dictionary of Archaeology, edited by Ian Shaw, Robert Jameson, page 517
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-4) Frachetti, Michael David, Pastoralist Landscapes and Social Interaction in Bronze Age Eurasia, pp. 52–3
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007444-7_5-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 444-7.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007443-4_6-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 443-4.
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007_7-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007_7-1) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007).
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-Chernykh2008_8-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-Chernykh2008_8-1) Chernykh, E.N. (2008). "Formation of the Eurasian "Steppe Belt" of Stockbreeding cultures". Archaeology, Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia. 35 (3): 36–53. doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1016/j.aeae.2008.11.003 (https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.aeae.2008.11.003).
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75_9-0) Chernykh 1992 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFChernykh1992), p.220-21, figs. 74, 75.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEChristian1998_10-0) Christian 1998 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFChristian1998).
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-BBCKeys_11-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-BBCKeys_11-1) Keys, David (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Keys_(author)) (January 2009). "Scholars crack the code of an ancient enigma". BBC History Magazine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_History_(magazine)). 10 (1): 9.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-12) Higham, C.; Higham, T.; Kijngam, A. (2011), "Cutting a Gordian Knot: the Bronze Age of Southeast Asia: origins, timing and impact", Antiquity, 85 (328): 583–598, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1017/S0003598X00067971 (https://doi.org/10.1017%2FS0003598X00067971)
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-13) E. Chernykh The “Steppe Belt” of stockbreeding cultures in Eurasia during the Early Metal Age Trab. Prehist., 65 (2008), pp. 73-93, 10.3989/tp.2008.08004
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-14) C. Der Sarkissian, O. Balanovsky, G. Brandt, V. Khartanovich, A. Buzhilova, S. Koshel, V. Zaporozhchenko, D. Gronenborn, V. Moiseyev, E. Kolpakov, et al., "Genographic Consortium Ancient DNA reveals prehistoric gene-flow from siberia in the complex human population history of North East Europe" PLoS Genet., 9 (2013), p. e1003296
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-15) "The American Journal of Human Genetics: Volume 99, Issue 1: Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup N: A Non-trivial Time-Resolved Phylogeography that Cuts across Language Families", 7 July 2016, Pages 163-173
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-16) http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/view/4182/4018
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-17) Lalueza-Fox, C.; Sampietro, M. L.; Gilbert, M. T. P.; Castri, L.; Facchini, F.; Pettener, D.; Bertranpetit, J. (2004), "Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient central Asians", Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences, 271 (1542): 941–947, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1098/rspb.2004.2698 (https://doi.org/10.1098%2Frspb.2004.2698), PMC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Central) 1691686 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691686), PMID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 15255049 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15255049)
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-18) Keyser, Christine; Bouakaze, Caroline; Crubézy, Eric; Nikolaev, Valery G.; Montagnon, Daniel; Reis, Tatiana; Ludes, Bertrand (2009), "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people", Human Genetics, 126 (3): 395–410, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1007/s00439-009-0683-0 (https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00439-009-0683-0), PMID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 19449030 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19449030)




bye bye little Goebels

Piro Ilir
08-05-19, 14:36
Not really. Nothing he said has a complete basis. Proto-Balto-Slavic was said to be related to possibly Proto-Dacian and Proto-Thracian. Proto-Thracian is not the same as thracian. Neither is Proto-Balto-Slavic the same as Slavic. The further you go back especially to the Proto-Balto-Slavic union, the difference with other indo european branches are far less so than is the case today. Also none of the thracians or illyrians discovered, or the ancient Greeks, had any I2a-Din/or R1a Z280/M458. The only R1a was the bronze age thracian. Even then, no one belongs to that branch. Certainly not common in Slavs any ways. From a a paternal Y standpoint, So far Slavs are not connected to any of them. Only very anciently with the M417 split with the Z93 Thracian. Also, from a autosomal standpoint, the illyrians and Thracians were Italian,Albanian Greek like. Less in the case of Balkan Slavs, and near non-existent in West or East Slavs.

What is more probable and likely is that Proto-Balto-Slavs were closer to the Proto-Thracians and Proto-Dacians before they left the steppes. Proto-Balto-Slavs were likely akin to Proto-Thracians and Proto-Dacians, representing northern cousins that never migrated to the Balkans. Only with the fragile state of Rome, and the collapse of these peoples did the Sklaveni migrate South. They likely were always dealing with Daco-Thracians on the far northern border with them. Also, Most scholars acknowledge not all Illyrians were homogenous. They also likely were not linguistically connected in a recent sense either. Possibly branching out from the rest with the breakup of Indo-European.

Perhaps some Geto-Dacians/Free Dacians that migrated north of the Danube formed a base for what would become Proto-Slavic. But in all likliehood they're distantly related and are merely northern cousins of the Thracians and Dacians, not those people themselves. Genetics/Archaeology will trump propaganda every time. So far Illyrians were R1b/J2/V13(all found predominantly in Albanians), Proto-Greeks were J2a, predominantly found in Greeks, and R1a-Z93 in a Bronze Age, likely Proto-Thracian grave(which is not recently related to Balto-Slavic Z280/M458 but distantly(5-6 thousand ypb).

No one can deny South Slavs have Paleo-Balkan heritage, both autosomally, and through Y chromosome. Especially Bulgarians/Macedonians. However, to say All these paleo-balkan people were Slavic and further from Albanians and Greeks is about as propagandized as you can get. Whats more correct is that Proto-Balto-Slavs were ancestral cousins of Proto-Thracians/Proto-Dacians, only migrating as Proto-Slavs from the north much later, as opposed to their distant southern kin, who left the steppe before many of these lineages differentiated themselves.

R1a- Z93 you said it was from Tracian iron age, right?!

Yetos
08-05-19, 15:03
....................................

Dibran
08-05-19, 16:05
R1a- Z93 you said it was from Tracian iron age, right?!

Bronze age actually. Someone responded to you last page. It was before 1000BC. Genetically it came out North-European like. In all probability a Proto-Thracian.

blevins13
08-05-19, 18:30
BYE BYE BLEVINS13

Forum members have memmory on what is published,
most are more than 2 years, before Lazarides papper,
look how many years you are,
Only Blinded by ultranationalist hate like you, can not See and ask sources, Which I am forced to wrie at bottom of post.





With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe
the lowest Altaic component in all IE, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
Only one sample of Ydna N found until now, at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.

Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
GENNETICS SPEAK
if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas
which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics,
Then Greeks both Linguistically and gennetical Origin from Yamnaa, and Vucedol-Vatin alternative name Cetina,
This is expressed By 1928, and has archailogical evidences, Carl Blegen,
which is the descent of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin (Cetine),
in fact Cetina is also a big split, giving also Latin to West, etc
IRELAND GENETICALLY IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR SEIMA TURBINO, THAN GREECE, DUE to Altaic component

The Genetical structure of Greece, almost Palaiolithic and Neolithic mixture,
with the lowest STEPPE, and almost Zero Altaic,
Shows other Theories as primary,
Especially the Mycenean Branch Genetics Suggest rather a Neolithic origin
or a South Caucasos origin, Armenia High Lands

The R1a in Greece, and Greek world, is the only Ydna mark That may connect Greek to Baltics, As Hammond express it, (although I disagree)
and came from the possible road of Yamnaa to Vucedol-Vatin (Cetina) (Croatia/Serbia today) with descent of Greeks at 3000 BC to the area of proto-Greeks

Period,

Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw
did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
using Schopenhauer by the book, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS
THE MOST BLIND OF ALL MEMBERS,


Seima Turbino culture

TheAltai Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains)in what is now southern Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and central Mongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007-7) The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-Chernykh2008-8) Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75-9)

migrations spread the Uralic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages)across Europe and Asia.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-BBCKeys-11)

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-13) Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-14) [15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-15)

BLEVINS
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits.


SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

:useless: :useless: :useless: :useless: :useless:












SO THIS MEMBER,
BLINDED BY ULTRA NATIONALISM.
WITH MAYBE TRAUMAS IN HIS PSYCHOLOGY.
NOW TELL US THAT MYCENEANS
WERE CONNECTED WITH ALTAI Mt (nomatter Altaic component is almost Zero) :petrified:
SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, (Mycenean is one of the most typical IE) :petrified:
WERE HEAVILY hg Ydna N (Almost 0%, only one found until now in whole Greek nation) :petrified:

:petrified: :petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

WHAT CAN SOMEONE SAY?
Except a wish for Peace of Mind.

I am sure Gods are with him,
Gods protect and take care of such guys.

you could read at least the Carl Blegen and Giannopoulos, and escape from your hell,
even read about Seima-Turbino culture.
or even trust Lazarides papper,
But No, you insisted,
may Gods protect your soul, cause mind ......
You were and asking fo it,
you scratch the sheperd's bat wrong way. :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:


Blevins the Catacomb culture, or the S Caucasos cultures were not enough for you,
you have to Go to Altaic mountains and uralic languages?
or you never of other IE cultures outside steppe?


a pathetic pittyfull aproach, by member Blevins13
guided by hate of ultranationalism
which with strange methods,
want us to Believe that Myceneans are steppe Altaic people,
and Spoke Uralic languages
while Lazarides papper on Myceneans is clear of S Caucasos and Armenia highlands origin
with low average 14% (10-20%) of Steppe, and Zero Altaic

BLEVINS MYCENEANS DID NOT SPOKE URALIC,
AS YOU LIKE THEM TO BE.
BYE BYE


The Academic pappers you ask


Marchenko et al. 2017 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFMarchenkoSvyatkoMolodinG rishin2017).
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007447_2-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 447.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-3) A Dictionary of Archaeology, edited by Ian Shaw, Robert Jameson, page 517
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-4) Frachetti, Michael David, Pastoralist Landscapes and Social Interaction in Bronze Age Eurasia, pp. 52–3
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007444-7_5-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 444-7.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007443-4_6-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 443-4.
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007_7-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007_7-1) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007).
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-Chernykh2008_8-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-Chernykh2008_8-1) Chernykh, E.N. (2008). "Formation of the Eurasian "Steppe Belt" of Stockbreeding cultures". Archaeology, Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia. 35 (3): 36–53. doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1016/j.aeae.2008.11.003 (https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.aeae.2008.11.003).
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75_9-0) Chernykh 1992 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFChernykh1992), p.220-21, figs. 74, 75.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEChristian1998_10-0) Christian 1998 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFChristian1998).
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-BBCKeys_11-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-BBCKeys_11-1) Keys, David (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Keys_(author)) (January 2009). "Scholars crack the code of an ancient enigma". BBC History Magazine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_History_(magazine)). 10 (1): 9.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-12) Higham, C.; Higham, T.; Kijngam, A. (2011), "Cutting a Gordian Knot: the Bronze Age of Southeast Asia: origins, timing and impact", Antiquity, 85 (328): 583–598, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1017/S0003598X00067971 (https://doi.org/10.1017%2FS0003598X00067971)
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-13) E. Chernykh The “Steppe Belt” of stockbreeding cultures in Eurasia during the Early Metal Age Trab. Prehist., 65 (2008), pp. 73-93, 10.3989/tp.2008.08004
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-14) C. Der Sarkissian, O. Balanovsky, G. Brandt, V. Khartanovich, A. Buzhilova, S. Koshel, V. Zaporozhchenko, D. Gronenborn, V. Moiseyev, E. Kolpakov, et al., "Genographic Consortium Ancient DNA reveals prehistoric gene-flow from siberia in the complex human population history of North East Europe" PLoS Genet., 9 (2013), p. e1003296
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-15) "The American Journal of Human Genetics: Volume 99, Issue 1: Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup N: A Non-trivial Time-Resolved Phylogeography that Cuts across Language Families", 7 July 2016, Pages 163-173
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-16) http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/view/4182/4018
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-17) Lalueza-Fox, C.; Sampietro, M. L.; Gilbert, M. T. P.; Castri, L.; Facchini, F.; Pettener, D.; Bertranpetit, J. (2004), "Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient central Asians", Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences, 271 (1542): 941–947, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1098/rspb.2004.2698 (https://doi.org/10.1098%2Frspb.2004.2698), PMC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Central) 1691686 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691686), PMID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 15255049 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15255049)
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-18) Keyser, Christine; Bouakaze, Caroline; Crubézy, Eric; Nikolaev, Valery G.; Montagnon, Daniel; Reis, Tatiana; Ludes, Bertrand (2009), "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people", Human Genetics, 126 (3): 395–410, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1007/s00439-009-0683-0 (https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00439-009-0683-0), PMID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 19449030 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19449030)




bye bye little Goebels

You are going crazy man it is not me ....I did not create this
R1a Greek Branch
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

I happened to agree with this. That is all.

And I did not write this Hammond did.

Tumulus Burials in South Albania

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond



The language used by Yetos is inappropriate.
I invite moderator to do something here.

And Yetos don’t copy from Wikipedia, show us academic papers for your statements.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Tutkun Arnaut
08-05-19, 19:32
[QUOTE=Yetos;575307]BYE BYE BLEVINS13

Forum members have memmory on what is published,
most are more than 2 years, before Lazarides papper,
look how many years you are,
Only Blinded by ultranationalist hate like you, can not See and ask sources, Which I am forced to wrie at bottom of post.





With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe
the lowest Altaic component in all IE, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
Only one sample of Ydna N found until now, at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.

Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
GENNETICS SPEAK
if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas
which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics,
Then Greeks both Linguistically and gennetical Origin from Yamnaa, and Vucedol-Vatin alternative name Cetina,
This is expressed By 1928, and has archailogical evidences, Carl Blegen,
which is the descent of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin (Cetine),
in fact Cetina is also a big split, giving also Latin to West, etc
IRELAND GENETICALLY IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR SEIMA TURBINO, THAN GREECE, DUE to Altaic component

The Genetical structure of Greece, almost Palaiolithic and Neolithic mixture,
with the lowest STEPPE, and almost Zero Altaic,
Shows other Theories as primary,
Especially the Mycenean Branch Genetics Suggest rather a Neolithic origin
or a South Caucasos origin, Armenia High Lands

The R1a in Greece, and Greek world, is the only Ydna mark That may connect Greek to Baltics, As Hammond express it, (although I disagree)
and came from the possible road of Yamnaa to Vucedol-Vatin (Cetina) (Croatia/Serbia today) with descent of Greeks at 3000 BC to the area of proto-Greeks

Period,

Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw
did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
using Schopenhauer by the book, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS
THE MOST BLIND OF ALL MEMBERS,


Seima Turbino culture

TheAltai Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains)in what is now southern Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and central Mongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007-7) The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-Chernykh2008-8) Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75-9)

migrations spread the Uralic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages)across Europe and Asia.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-BBCKeys-11)

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-13) Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-14) [15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-15)

BLEVINS
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits.


SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

:useless: :useless: :useless: :useless: :useless:












SO THIS MEMBER,
BLINDED BY ULTRA NATIONALISM.
WITH MAYBE TRAUMAS IN HIS PSYCHOLOGY.
NOW TELL US THAT MYCENEANS
WERE CONNECTED WITH ALTAI Mt (nomatter Altaic component is almost Zero) :petrified:
SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, (Mycenean is one of the most typical IE) :petrified:
WERE HEAVILY hg Ydna N (Almost 0%, only one found until now in whole Greek nation) :petrified:

:petrified: :petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

WHAT CAN SOMEONE SAY?
Except a wish for Peace of Mind.

I am sure Gods are with him,
Gods protect and take care of such guys.

you could read at least the Carl Blegen and Giannopoulos, and escape from your hell,
even read about Seima-Turbino culture.
or even trust Lazarides papper,
But No, you insisted,
may Gods protect your soul, cause mind ......
You were and asking fo it,
you scratch the sheperd's bat wrong way. :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:


Blevins the Catacomb culture, or the S Caucasos cultures were not enough for you,
you have to Go to Altaic mountains and uralic languages?
or you never of other IE cultures outside steppe?


a pathetic pittyfull aproach, by member Blevins13
guided by hate of ultranationalism
which with strange methods,
want us to Believe that Myceneans are steppe Altaic people,
and Spoke Uralic languages
while Lazarides papper on Myceneans is clear of S Caucasos and Armenia highlands origin
with low average 14% (10-20%) of Steppe, and Zero Altaic

BLEVINS MYCENEANS DID NOT SPOKE URALIC,
AS YOU LIKE THEM TO BE.
BYE BYE


The Academic pappers you ask


Marchenko et al. 2017 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFMarchenkoSvyatkoMolodinG rishin2017).
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007447_2-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 447.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-3) A Dictionary of Archaeology, edited by Ian Shaw, Robert Jameson, page 517
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-4) Frachetti, Michael David, Pastoralist Landscapes and Social Interaction in Bronze Age Eurasia, pp. 52–3
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007444-7_5-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 444-7.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007443-4_6-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 443-4.
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007_7-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007_7-1) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007).
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-Chernykh2008_8-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-Chernykh2008_8-1) Chernykh, E.N. (2008). "Formation of the Eurasian "Steppe Belt" of Stockbreeding cultures". Archaeology, Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia. 35 (3): 36–53. doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1016/j.aeae.2008.11.003 (https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.aeae.2008.11.003).
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75_9-0) Chernykh 1992 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFChernykh1992), p.220-21, figs. 74, 75.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEChristian1998_10-0) Christian 1998 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFChristian1998).
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-BBCKeys_11-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-BBCKeys_11-1) Keys, David (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Keys_(author)) (January 2009). "Scholars crack the code of an ancient enigma". BBC History Magazine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_History_(magazine)). 10 (1): 9.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-12) Higham, C.; Higham, T.; Kijngam, A. (2011), "Cutting a Gordian Knot: the Bronze Age of Southeast Asia: origins, timing and impact", Antiquity, 85 (328): 583–598, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1017/S0003598X00067971 (https://doi.org/10.1017%2FS0003598X00067971)
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-13) E. Chernykh The “Steppe Belt” of stockbreeding cultures in Eurasia during the Early Metal Age Trab. Prehist., 65 (2008), pp. 73-93, 10.3989/tp.2008.08004
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-14) C. Der Sarkissian, O. Balanovsky, G. Brandt, V. Khartanovich, A. Buzhilova, S. Koshel, V. Zaporozhchenko, D. Gronenborn, V. Moiseyev, E. Kolpakov, et al., "Genographic Consortium Ancient DNA reveals prehistoric gene-flow from siberia in the complex human population history of North East Europe" PLoS Genet., 9 (2013), p. e1003296
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-15) "The American Journal of Human Genetics: Volume 99, Issue 1: Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup N: A Non-trivial Time-Resolved Phylogeography that Cuts across Language Families", 7 July 2016, Pages 163-173
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-16) http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/view/4182/4018
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-17) Lalueza-Fox, C.; Sampietro, M. L.; Gilbert, M. T. P.; Castri, L.; Facchini, F.; Pettener, D.; Bertranpetit, J. (2004), "Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient central Asians", Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences, 271 (1542): 941–947, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1098/rspb.2004.2698 (https://doi.org/10.1098%2Frspb.2004.2698), PMC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Central) 1691686 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691686), PMID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 15255049 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15255049)
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-18) Keyser, Christine; Bouakaze, Caroline; Crubézy, Eric; Nikolaev, Valery G.; Montagnon, Daniel; Reis, Tatiana; Ludes, Bertrand (2009), "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people", Human Genetics, 126 (3): 395–410, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1007/s00439-009-0683-0 (https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00439-009-0683-0), PMID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 19449030 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19449030)




bye bye little Goebels[/QUOT

Why is it so hard for you to accept the facts?
You have to be able to hear other sides arguments!
Its time of iPhone and people have access instantly to information!
Greek historiography has too many lies, no one believes them! Be kind, if you get nervous its not going to do any good to anyone, even to the moderators

zanipolo
08-05-19, 20:29
You are going crazy man it is not me ....I did not create this
R1a Greek Branch
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

I happened to agree with this. That is all.

And I did not write this Hammond did.

Tumulus Burials in South Albania

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond



The language used by Yetos is inappropriate.
I invite moderator to do something here.

And Yetos don’t copy from Wikipedia, show us academic papers for your statements.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

https://www.academia.edu/34656422/Albanians_and_the_Illyrian-_Pelasgian_thesis

Achilles people where a branch of pelagasians

Yetos
08-05-19, 21:04
@ blevins13

these are not academic words.
These are words of your mind.
YOU SNEAK AND HIDE BEHIND PAPPERS TO SPREAD POISON.
PROVIDING AN ANTI-GREEK AGENDA, AS REACTION OF HATEFULL SOUL, DUE TO OVER NATIONALISM,
LOOK WHAT YOU SAY TO US, TUMULI IS ALBANIAN MARK ??


tumulus burial (generally accepted as marker of illyrians) in macedonia close to mount olympus before mycenaean expansion.

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/paraskevi_tritsaroli/publication/321866757_the_pigi_athinas_tumuli_cemetery_of_mace donian_olympus_burial_customs_and_the_bioarchaeolo gy_of_social_structures_at_the_dawn_of_the_late_br onze_age_central_macedonia_greece/links/5b2e63baa6fdcc8506c3edde/the-pigi-athinas-tumuli-cemetery-of-macedonian-olympus-burial-customs-and-the-bioarchaeology-of-social-structures-at-the-dawn-of-the-late-bronze-age-central-macedonia-greece.pdf?origin=publication_detail


sent from my iphone using eupedia forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)


Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis

Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132
Nicholas G. L. Hammond
Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.




Cetina related with Mycenaean civilization come on this is a joke not Seima -Turbino. Considering also lack of R1b so far and minimal step for sure Seima - Turbino.

Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

SO AFTER ALL THESE.
AND NO MATTER THE ANSWERS WERE GIVEN TO YOU,
YOU CONTINUE TO SNEAK AND HIDE, AND SPREAD YOUR ULTRANATIONALISTIC POSITION,
LITTLE A TRUE GOEBELS CHILD, ONLY YOU NEVER THOUGHT THE RESULTS OF SCHOPENHAUER,
WHICH FINALLY THE FIRST WHO BELIEVE HIS LIE, IS THE ONE WHO ATTACK WITH LIES,

AND SINCE YOU DID ASK A SORRY FOR YOUR SPECULATED, POISONOUS POSTS, At LEAST TO THE MYCENEANS AND PATROKLOS WHO MADE THEM URALIC / Fino-Ugric SPEAKING
I WILL EXPOSE YOU TO THE LIMIT.


Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw
did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
using Schopenhauer by the book, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS



Seima Turbino culture

TheAltai Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains)in what is now southern Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and central Mongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007-7) The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-Chernykh2008-8) Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75-9)

migrations spread the Uralic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages)across Europe and Asia.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-BBCKeys-11)

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-13) Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-14) [15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-15)

BLEVINS
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits.


SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

Understand it
these happens when you cultivate wrong ideas, to prevail
and use Schopehauer art of being right, to persuade about wrong being right
the effect maybe be permanent in your brain.

blevins13
08-05-19, 22:08
@ blevins13

these are not academic words.
These are words of your mind.
YOU SNEAK AND HIDE BEHIND PAPPERS TO SPREAD POISON.
PROVIDING AN ANTI-GREEK AGENDA, AS REACTION OF HATEFULL SOUL, DUE TO OVER NATIONALISM,
LOOK WHAT YOU SAY TO US, TUMULI IS ONLY ALBANIAN MARK ??








SO AFTER ALL THESE.
AND NO MATTER THE ANSWERS WERE GIVEN TO YOU,
YOU CONTINUE TO SNEAK AND HIDE, AND SPREAD YOUR ULTRANATIONALISTIC POSITION,
LITTLE A TRUE GOEBELS CHILD, ONLY YOU NEVER THOUGHT THE RESULTS OF SCHOPENHAUER,
WHICH FINALLY THE FIRST WHO BELIEVE HIS LIE, IS THE ONE WHO ATTACK WITH LIES,

AND SINCE YOU DID ASK A SORRY FOR YOUR SPECULATED, POISONOUS POSTS, At LEAST TO THE MYCENEANS AND PATROKLOS WHO MADE THEM URALIC / Fino-Ugric SPEAKING
I WILL EXPOSE YOU TO THE LIMIT.


Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw
did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
using Schopenhauer by the book, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS



Seima Turbino culture

TheAltai Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains)in what is now southern Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and central Mongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007-7) The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-Chernykh2008-8) Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75-9)

migrations spread the Uralic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages)across Europe and Asia.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-BBCKeys-11)

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-13) Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-14) [15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-15)

BLEVINS
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits.


SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

Understand it
these happens when you cultivate wrong ideas, to prevail
and use Schopehauer art of being right, to persuade about wrong being right
the effect maybe be permanent in your brain.

I think moderators should stop this inappropriate language and insults.... or they let us know that this is a place that anyone can bark what they can so we at least know what we are dealing with!!!!!!!!???????



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Yetos
08-05-19, 22:26
I think moderators should stop this inappropriate language and insults.... or they let us know that this is a place that anyone can bark what they can so we at least know what we are dealing with!!!!!!!!???????



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I think Gods should punish you,
For Insulting Ancient cultures,

Listen what you say,
''TUMULI IS ONLY ALBANIA'',
So Mycaenae was Albania? right?
and Makedonians were Albanians? right?

and when not succeded to convice you started to tell us that Mycaenae were Altaic? spoke Uralic? and carry Ydna N?
How pathetic now to call moderators,Better call Gods to help you, if they can,
I wonder in what species they transform you.

you have been warned, that you move in strange fields, paranoia fields.
but you kept scratching your back on the bat.
I wonder !!!! did you change a little bit your mind?

Johane Derite
08-05-19, 22:51
Mycaenae were Altaic? spoke Uralic? and carry Ydna N?



He never said any of that. You are one of the most dishonest, insulting, bad faith people on this site. All you do is manipulate and agitate. All blevins did was post what Maciamo has written on Eupedia, and he shared a quote of NGL Hammond about the archaeological record, and how there are clashes in the narrative that you support.

blevins13
08-05-19, 23:03
@ blevins13

these are not academic words.
These are words of your mind.
YOU SNEAK AND HIDE BEHIND PAPPERS TO SPREAD POISON.
PROVIDING AN ANTI-GREEK AGENDA, AS REACTION OF HATEFULL SOUL, DUE TO OVER NATIONALISM,
LOOK WHAT YOU SAY TO US, TUMULI IS ONLY ALBANIAN MARK ??








SO AFTER ALL THESE.
AND NO MATTER THE ANSWERS WERE GIVEN TO YOU,
YOU CONTINUE TO SNEAK AND HIDE, AND SPREAD YOUR ULTRANATIONALISTIC POSITION,
LITTLE A TRUE GOEBELS CHILD, ONLY YOU NEVER THOUGHT THE RESULTS OF SCHOPENHAUER,
WHICH FINALLY THE FIRST WHO BELIEVE HIS LIE, IS THE ONE WHO ATTACK WITH LIES,

AND SINCE YOU DID ASK A SORRY FOR YOUR SPECULATED, POISONOUS POSTS, At LEAST TO THE MYCENEANS AND PATROKLOS WHO MADE THEM URALIC / Fino-Ugric SPEAKING
I WILL EXPOSE YOU TO THE LIMIT.


Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,

Btw
did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
using Schopenhauer by the book, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.

BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS



Seima Turbino culture

TheAltai Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains)in what is now southern Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and central Mongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007-7) The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-Chernykh2008-8) Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75-9)

migrations spread the Uralic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages)across Europe and Asia.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-BBCKeys-11)

Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-13) Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-14) [15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-15)

BLEVINS
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N

I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits.


SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.

Understand it
these happens when you cultivate wrong ideas, to prevail
and use Schopehauer art of being right, to persuade about wrong being right
the effect maybe be permanent in your brain.


Members of this forum, I am not sneaking anything, this is public info from the links below . I tent to agree with this
Eupedia:
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

Or here

https://www.historyfiles.co.uk/KingListsEurope/GreeceMycenae.htm

So read and draw your own conclusions. Wrong ideas right ideas we are all here to learn not to be insulted.


Mycenaeans

The Mycenaeans were West Indo-Europeans, part of a much greater expansion and migration of Indo-Europeans (IEs) from the northern shores of the Black Sea and Caspian Sea. A general consensus of scholarly opinion was that they migrated into Eastern Europe from the Pontic-Caspian steppe in the period between 3300-2600 BC. After having left the main westwards migration of proto-IE around 2500 BC, they gradually blended into the indigenous population in the lower Balkans (the Pelasgians) between then and 2000 BC. However, in recent years that idea has undergone some refinement.

Clearly the Mycenaeans were part of an imported steppe culture. But the close relationship between Mycenaean and proto-Indo-Iranian languages shows that these two branches divided fairly late, sometime between 2500-2000 BC. Archaeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities to the Seima-Turbino culture (between about 1900-1600 BC) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites have been found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaeans descended from the steppe into Greece between 1900-1650 BC, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new, unique Greek culture. Naturally, as the new dominant force in the region, their language would also have dominated. The locals had gained between 62% and 86% of their DNA from people who had introduced farming from Anatolia as part of 'Old Europe'. They would have adopted this language fairly quickly and, if not them, then their children or grandchildren would have, which is why modern Greek expresses its IE origins so clearly. However, the IE influence on DNA in Greece was more subtle than across much of Europe, showing that these Mycenaean IEs arriving in Greece were less in number than some of their IE cousins.

The new proto-Greek speakers covered a swathe of territory that reached as far north as Epirus. They emerged into the archaeological record rather suddenly, with the appearance of shaft grave royal burials around 1650 BC. but, whilst the first city states had emerged by 1600 BC (the same time at which Mycenaean culture also appears on Cyprus), the Mycenaeans did not form one nation state. Instead they banded their independent city states together under one leader in times of trouble. During their own time they were known primarily as Achaeans, after the Achaea region of Greece.

Records on the Mycenaeans are very sparse, usually being limited to myths and legends. Many of their leaders are semi or wholly legendary. The latter are backed in lilac, usually for events prior to the Trojan War. Mycenaeans also established trading outposts on the Anatolian coast, and were possibly the Ahhiyawa mentioned in Hittite texts from the mid-fifteenth century onwards. Their civilisation seems to have flourished immediately following the fall of Crete, which seems to have dominated the Greeks up to that point.

(Information by Peter Kessler, with additional information by Edward Dawson, from The Horse, the Wheel, and Language: How Bronze-Age Riders from the Eurasian Steppes Shaped the Modern World, David W Anthony, from The Illiad, Homer (Translated by E V Rieu, Penguin, 1950), and from External Links: Haplogroup R1a (Eupedia Genetics), and DNA clue to origins of early Greek civilization (BBC News), and Grave of the Griffin Warrior.)



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blevins13
08-05-19, 23:16
I think Gods should punish you,
For Insulting Ancient cultures,

Listen what you say,
''TUMULI IS ONLY ALBANIA'',
So Mycaenae was Albania? right?
and Makedonians were Albanians? right?

and when not succeded to convice you started to tell us that Mycaenae were Altaic? spoke Uralic? and carry Ydna N?
How pathetic now to call moderators,Better call Gods to help you, if they can,
I wonder in what species they transform you.

you have been warned, that you move in strange fields, paranoia fields.
but you kept scratching your back on the bat.
I wonder !!!! did you change a little bit your mind?

Here you go again like it our not i am quoting Hammond, is this a lie?

Tumulus-burial in Albania and problems of Ethnogenesis
Iliria Année 1976 4 pp. 127-132

Nicholas G. L. Hammond

https://www.persee.fr/doc/iliri_1727-2548_1976_num_4_1_1174

Tumulus Burials in South Albania

Tumulus burial ceased in Mycenaean Greece before 1400 b.c., yet when Achilles honours Patroclus in Iliad he uses a method of burial than used only in Albania and farther north. It is likely that Homer here reveals the origins of heroic practice, and very probably the origin of oral epic. The dramatic date of the poem was 200 years after the end of tumulus burial in Mycenaean Greece and Homer himself lived 600 and 700 years after that time. But he went correctly to the north-west for the origin of Achilles, tumulus burial and heroic practices. For Albania was and is the homeland of heroes.





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Yetos
08-05-19, 23:23
Yes I know, The Eupedia articles,

but
similarities with Seima Turbino
Does not mean Seima Turbino,
so your sterile determine opinion, Kurgan= Greeks vs Tumuli=Albanians does not fit.

the problem of IE theories for Greeks, and the oposite, of Greeks in IE world and expansion is bigger,
and one more time I say it fits in all 3 theories, yet does fit to noone.

So lets Stop smashing the Mosquito, and swallow the rope,
cause if want propagandistic attacking policies, I can bring you many, as to anyone,
But that poison brain and heart.

blevins13
09-05-19, 08:25
Yes I know, The Eupedia articles,

but
similarities with Seima Turbino
Does not mean Seima Turbino,
so your sterile determine opinion, Kurgan= Greeks vs Tumuli=Albanians does not fit.

the problem of IE theories for Greeks, and the oposite, of Greeks in IE world and expansion is bigger,
and one more time I say it fits in all 3 theories, yet does fit to noone.

So lets Stop smashing the Mosquito, and swallow the rope,
cause if want propagandistic attacking policies, I can bring you many, as to anyone,
But that poison brain and heart.

There is no poison here, only information that already exists.... and I bring it here for the members as an option that I agree with. If you have more theories for Mycenaean and their link to Macedonians bring them for the members of this forum to evaluate.


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Yetos
09-05-19, 09:06
There is no poison here, only information that already exists.... and I bring it here for the members as an option that I agree with. If you have more theories for Mycenaean and their link to Macedonians bring them for the members of this forum to evaluate.


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Who cares about your opinion?
You Have already prove who you are,

Your Informations, that YOU Provide to us,
that Myceneans were Heavily Altaic, :shocked:
SpokE Uralic Finno-Ugric, :shocked:
And Had Hg N :shocked:
Tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian mark !!! :shocked:
and all because you can not distinguish simmilar from being.

YOU ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUS.
You Can NOT even Distinguish the similarity of group, whith the Belong to a group
And I wonder why I still Speak to you,

BYE BYE ........


At Least Ridiculous posts and opinions, Not to use another word,

Your answer is Given by Lazarides papper 2017,

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310)

Offcourse 2 years now,
And After all this sound in Forum about this papper that shocked many in scientific community,
you never read it, or you will not,
At least let me inform you, it is a search widely accepted, which offcourse will improve in Future,
but fits with current data scientific community has.
Well keep your crap-science of Tumuli is only Albanian and Albanian mark,
who cares,

ACCEPT IT, and if you can't Swallow It,

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40791188 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40791188)

from the link :

But the much more minor influx of Steppe people into Greece compared with northern Europe has led some to conclude that this migration could not have effected a change in language. This might imply that progenitors of Greek - and perhaps other Indo-European languages - were already established in the Aegean by the time the Steppe people arrived.



BTW
You know Echidna, stays always at same point, shrinking her body around her shelf, trusting in her venom power, never leaves her 'place'
until her head is smashed.



there are many descent Albanians here,
can't someone explain to him the Geneticks,
and the Greek issue on Antoni's work? that Antoni's theory of horse wheel and chariot, can not trully explain Greeks and Myceneans, not even Anatolian ones
and in Greece there is chance to spoke IE much before steppe reach N Europe and minor Asia.


Blevins
from the links

Archaeologist Kristian Kristiansen of the University of Gothenburg in Sweden, who was not involved in the work, agrees. “The results have now opened up the next chapter in the genetic history of western Eurasia—that of the Bronze Age Mediterranean.”

blevins13
09-05-19, 10:05
Who cares about your opinion?
You Have already prove who you are,

Your Informations, that YOU Provide to us,
that Myceneans were Heavily Altaic, :shocked:
SpokE Uralic Finno-Ugric, :shocked:
And Had Hg N :shocked:
Tumuli is Albanian and only Albanian mark !!! :shocked:
and all because you can not distinguish simmilar from being.

YOU ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN SERIOUS.
You Can NOT even Distinguish the similarity of group, whith the Belong to a group
And I wonder why I still Speak to you,

BYE BYE ........


At Least Ridiculous posts and opinions, Not to use another word,

Your answer is Given by Lazarides papper 2017,

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310 (https://www.nature.com/articles/nature23310)

Offcourse 2 years now,
And After all this sound in Forum about this papper that shocked many in scientific community,
you never read it, or you will not,
At least let me inform you, it is a search widely accepted, which offcourse will improve in Future,
but fits with current data scientific community has.
Well keep your crap-science of Tumuli is only Albanian and Albanian mark,
who cares,

ACCEPT IT, and if you can't Swallow It,

https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40791188 (https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-40791188)

from the search :

But the much more minor influx of Steppe people into Greece compared with northern Europe has led some to conclude that this migration could not have effected a change in language. This might imply that progenitors of Greek - and perhaps other Indo-European languages - were already established in the Aegean by the time the Steppe people arrived.



BTW
You know Echidna, stays always at same point, shrinking her body around her shelf, trusting in her venom power, never leaves her 'place'
until her head is smashed.



there are many descent Albanians here,
can't someone explain to him the Geneticks,
and the Greek issue on Antoni's work? that Antoni's theory of horse wheel and chariot, can not trully explain Greeks and Myceneans, not even Anatolian ones
and in Greece there is chance to spoke IE much before steppe reach N Europe and minor Asia.

This is the answer from Lazaridis (2017)
Quote
“Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia”.

No need to argue about me argue with me.

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Yetos
09-05-19, 10:21
This the answer from Lazaridis (2017)
Quote
“Mycenaeans differed from Minoans in deriving additional ancestry from an ultimate source related to the hunter–gatherers of eastern Europe and Siberia”.


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hahaha

which was? average 14 % value from 10-20 %, even lower than today or that time S caucasus and Armenia highlands.
same as today Greece has, and minest of all Europe !!! and almost 0% Altaic, and no hg N
which means genetically has nothing to do with Seima-Turbino. but there are similarities in chariots and mobility style, as there are with Hettites,
But no R1b, no R1a,
as for the Greek branches of R1a, there are 3 types, and Greece in other conditions could be the homeland of R1a, cause has a very big variety,
Macciamo express it well in Eupedia, using words simmilar, possible, might, cause he knows, avoiding identification=certification, in this case.
the Myceane Genetics are outside Steppe theory, yet we accept them for that 14%,
while the archaological evidences of coming of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin as express by Blegen and Giannopoulos fits better to steppe theories via Yamnaa.
yet these theories from N Balkans still can not explain the Greco-Aryan, but can exlain the Greco-Latin,
It is a big puzzle, which is partially solved according each theory, but can not solved/unite

Before you spread any more poison I suggest you to find BMAC and Andronovo,
the key to all theories of IE is there,
and accept a sphairical view, comparing theories, before you make them a law
and leave the Albanian and only the Albanian, cause if enter Linguistic/gennetics we will speak for years.

blevins13
09-05-19, 10:39
hahaha

which was? average 14 % value from 10-20 %, even lower than today or that time S caucasus and Armenia highlands.
same as today Greece has, and minest of all Europe !!! and almost 0% Altaic, and no hg N
which means genetically has nothing to do with Seima-Turbino. but there are similarities in chariots and mobility style, as there are with Hettites,
But no R1b, no R1a,
as for the Greek branches of R1a, there are 3 types, and Greece in other conditions could be the homeland of R1a, cause has a very big variety,
Macciamo express it well in Eupedia, using words simmilar, possible, might, cause he knows, avoiding identification=certification, in this case.
the Myceane Genetics are outside Steppe theory, yet we accept them for that 14%,
while the archaological evidences of coming of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin as express by Blegen and Giannopoulos fits better to steppe theories via Yamnaa.
yet these theories from N Balkans still can not explain the Greco-Aryan, but can exlain the Greco-Latin,
It is a big puzzle, which is partially solved according each theory, but can not solved/unite

Before you spread any more poison I suggest you to find BMAC and Andronovo,
the key to all theories of IE is there,
and accept a sphairical view, comparing theories, before you make them a law
and leave the Albanian and only the Albanian, cause if enter Linguistic/gennetics we will speak for years.

As I said before it seems that Patroclus has left the building......and imagine what follows after..::: if this looks like poison to you that is your problem not mine.


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blevins13
09-05-19, 10:51
hahaha

which was? average 14 % value from 10-20 %, even lower than today or that time S caucasus and Armenia highlands.
same as today Greece has, and minest of all Europe !!! and almost 0% Altaic, and no hg N
which means genetically has nothing to do with Seima-Turbino. but there are similarities in chariots and mobility style, as there are with Hettites,
But no R1b, no R1a,
as for the Greek branches of R1a, there are 3 types, and Greece in other conditions could be the homeland of R1a, cause has a very big variety,
Macciamo express it well in Eupedia, using words simmilar, possible, might, cause he knows, avoiding identification=certification, in this case.
the Myceane Genetics are outside Steppe theory, yet we accept them for that 14%,
while the archaological evidences of coming of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin as express by Blegen and Giannopoulos fits better to steppe theories via Yamnaa.
yet these theories from N Balkans still can not explain the Greco-Aryan, but can exlain the Greco-Latin,
It is a big puzzle, which is partially solved according each theory, but can not solved/unite

Before you spread any more poison I suggest you to find BMAC and Andronovo,
the key to all theories of IE is there,
and accept a sphairical view, comparing theories, before you make them a law
and leave the Albanian and only the Albanian, cause if enter Linguistic/gennetics we will speak for years.



You posted Wikipedia to make your point as much as you can make a point from Wikipedia.

As follows:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon


In Wikipedia you will find also the opposite of your point.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age


As I said before Uralic and metallurgy do not fit together.

The Altai Mountains in what is now southern Russia and central Mongolia have been identified as the point of origin of a cultural enigma termed the Seima-Turbino Phenomenon.[27] It is conjectured that changes in climate in this region around 2000 BC and the ensuing ecological, economic and political changes triggered a rapid and massive migration westward into northeast Europe, eastward into China and southward into Vietnam and Thailand [28] across a frontier of some 4,000 miles.[27] This migration took place in just five to six generations and led to peoples from Finland in the west to Thailand in the east employing the same metal working technology and, in some areas, horse breeding and riding.[27] It is further conjectured that the same migrations spread the Uralic group of languages across Europe and Asia: some 39 languages of this group are still extant, including Hungarian, Finnish and Estonian.[27] However, recent genetic testings of sites in south Siberia and Kazakhstan (Andronovo horizon) would rather support a spreading of the bronze technology via Indo-European migrations eastwards, as this technology was well known for quite a while in western regions.[29][30]


Enjoy


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Aspar
09-05-19, 11:18
I know it's off topic but I have seen some Greeks with y-dna R1a-Z93 on some of these forums...
One of the deep branches I've seen is R-F2935, https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F2935/
This is too old to seem connected with some medieval or modern Turkic people and dates as you see to the Bronze Age.
The steppe element in the Mycenaeans could have very well been brought by some R1a-Z93 warriors when we consider that R1a-Z93 was found in Bronze age Bulgaria.
As such, coupled with the similarities that Blevin mentioned above in regards of material culture, Seima-Turbino seems as a very good candidate...
Also, these Mycenaeans look very eastern to my eyes:

https://i.postimg.cc/FFfgrMCD/1188299.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/RCnK5cqY/Mask-of-Agamemnon-570x350.jpg (https://postimages.org/)

Yetos
09-05-19, 13:20
I know it's off topic but I have seen some Greeks with y-dna R1a-Z93 on some of these forums...
One of the deep branches I've seen is R-F2935, https://www.yfull.com/tree/R-F2935/
This is too old to seem connected with some medieval or modern Turkic people and dates as you see to the Bronze Age.
The steppe element in the Mycenaeans could have very well been brought by some R1a-Z93 warriors when we consider that R1a-Z93 was found in Bronze age Bulgaria.
As such, coupled with the similarities that Blevin mentioned above in regards of material culture, Seima-Turbino seems as a very good candidate...
Also, these Mycenaeans look very eastern to my eyes:

https://i.postimg.cc/FFfgrMCD/1188299.jpg (https://postimages.org/)
https://i.postimg.cc/RCnK5cqY/Mask-of-Agamemnon-570x350.jpg (https://postimages.org/)



Yes I know,
But can not find which tomb it was,
If we are reffering to Kazanlak tombs, they are very very new,

Notice the 3 options

1 is to be older than Srubnaya so to be pre or proto Thracian from early devastations

2a is to be Srubnaya culture,

2b is to be the continuity of Srubnaya, a Scythian from minor Scythia

3 is to be the Skudra, the Persian Satraps in Thrace if the tomb is after 500-550 BC

from what I found genetists call him the lonely one migrant.

If you can found the date of tomb and what auDna or what origin % will help a lot,

LABERIA
09-05-19, 13:42
Why are allowed ad-hominem attacks in this thread?

Yetos
09-05-19, 18:16
Why are allowed ad-hominem attacks in this thread?


indeed it is a very nice movie

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51TPS15XJXL._SY445_.jpg

Piro Ilir
09-05-19, 20:03
Bronze age actually. Someone responded to you last page. It was before 1000BC. Genetically it came out North-European like. In all probability a Proto-Thracian.

Thanks. Seems it points to reject some of the anti Albanian agendas.

Piro Ilir
09-05-19, 20:07
BYE BYE BLEVINS13
Forum members have memmory on what is published,
most are more than 2 years, before Lazarides papper,
look how many years you are,
Only Blinded by ultranationalist hate like you, can not See and ask sources, Which I am forced to wrie at bottom of post.
With an ancestry of 10-14% Steppe
the lowest Altaic component in all IE, almost 0%, even after 400 Ottoman-Turkish occupation,
Only one sample of Ydna N found until now, at more than 20 000 000 Greeks of Hellas and diaspora (one found in Peloponese)
There is NO chance that Greeks and especially the Mycenean part, to be origined from Seima Turbino.
Seima Turbino is a culture of Ydna N, and heavily charched with Altaic Component.
GENNETICS SPEAK
if we follow the theory of Antoni, or Gibutas
which does not fit in Helladic space, and Genetics,
Then Greeks both Linguistically and gennetical Origin from Yamnaa, and Vucedol-Vatin alternative name Cetina,
This is expressed By 1928, and has archailogical evidences, Carl Blegen,
which is the descent of Greeks from Vucedol-Vatin (Cetine),
in fact Cetina is also a big split, giving also Latin to West, etc
IRELAND GENETICALLY IS MORE POSSIBLE FOR SEIMA TURBINO, THAN GREECE, DUE to Altaic component
The Genetical structure of Greece, almost Palaiolithic and Neolithic mixture,
with the lowest STEPPE, and almost Zero Altaic,
Shows other Theories as primary,
Especially the Mycenean Branch Genetics Suggest rather a Neolithic origin
or a South Caucasos origin, Armenia High Lands
The R1a in Greece, and Greek world, is the only Ydna mark That may connect Greek to Baltics, As Hammond express it, (although I disagree)
and came from the possible road of Yamnaa to Vucedol-Vatin (Cetina) (Croatia/Serbia today) with descent of Greeks at 3000 BC to the area of proto-Greeks
Period,
Tumuli was used By all Proto-Greeks, was used by Myceneans, and its evolution gave the famous Makedonian Toumbas, which are typically and characteristic
and IS NOT ONLY Albanian, As you like it to be in your Brain, and in your Dreams,
Btw
did you go to a doctor to help you with Illyromania and Albanian only case?
Don't leave it, it will hurt you more in Future,
using Schopenhauer by the book, and step by step, makes people blind, and lost in space, or Only in, mass usage of Schopehauer it is just a shelf-exille from truth.
BYE BYE BLIND BLEVINS

Seima Turbino culture

TheAltai Mountains (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains)in what is now southern Russia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and central Mongolia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolia) have been identified as the point of origin of the cultural enigma of Seima-Turbino phenomenon.[7] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007-7) The culture spread from these mountains to the west and to the east.[8] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-Chernykh2008-8) Artefact types such as spearheads with hooks, single-bladed knives and socketed axes with geometric designs traveled west and east.[9] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75-9)
migrations spread the Uralic languages (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uralic_languages)across Europe and Asia.[11] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-BBCKeys-11)
Notable is the similiarity between the range of Haplogroup N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya. [13] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-13) Carriers of N3a1-B211, the early branch of N3a, could have migrated to the eastern fringes of Europe by the same Seima-Turbino groups. However earlier migration(s) cannot be ruled out either; a study of ancient DNA revealed a 7,500-year-old influx from Siberia to northeast Europe. [14] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-14) [15] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_note-15)

BLEVINS
THIS IS SEIMA-TURBINO
ALTAIC
URALIC LANGUAGES
Hg N
I tend to keep calm and show respect to you.
But your egoism, Tumuli is Only Albanian origin
did not leave me more, patience has limits.
SO FORUM MEMBER BLEVINS13 WHICH BEFORE LAZARIDES PAPPER TOLD US OF HIS MYCENEAN ANCESTRY Due to R1b
Now tells us that Myceneans were Altaic connected, SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, and were heavily charched with Hg N genetically.
:useless: :useless: :useless: :useless: :useless:





SO THIS MEMBER,
BLINDED BY ULTRA NATIONALISM.
WITH MAYBE TRAUMAS IN HIS PSYCHOLOGY.
NOW TELL US THAT MYCENEANS
WERE CONNECTED WITH ALTAI Mt (nomatter Altaic component is almost Zero) :petrified:
SPOKE URALIC LANGUAGES, (Mycenean is one of the most typical IE) :petrified:
WERE HEAVILY hg Ydna N (Almost 0%, only one found until now in whole Greek nation) :petrified:
:petrified: :petrified: :petrified: :petrified:

WHAT CAN SOMEONE SAY?
Except a wish for Peace of Mind.
I am sure Gods are with him,
Gods protect and take care of such guys.
you could read at least the Carl Blegen and Giannopoulos, and escape from your hell,
even read about Seima-Turbino culture.
or even trust Lazarides papper,
But No, you insisted,
may Gods protect your soul, cause mind ......
You were and asking fo it,
you scratch the sheperd's bat wrong way. :innocent: :innocent: :innocent:
Blevins the Catacomb culture, or the S Caucasos cultures were not enough for you,
you have to Go to Altaic mountains and uralic languages?
or you never of other IE cultures outside steppe?
a pathetic pittyfull aproach, by member Blevins13
guided by hate of ultranationalism
which with strange methods,
want us to Believe that Myceneans are steppe Altaic people,
and Spoke Uralic languages
while Lazarides papper on Myceneans is clear of S Caucasos and Armenia highlands origin
with low average 14% (10-20%) of Steppe, and Zero Altaic
BLEVINS MYCENEANS DID NOT SPOKE URALIC,
AS YOU LIKE THEM TO BE.
BYE BYE
The Academic pappers you ask


Marchenko et al. 2017 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFMarchenkoSvyatkoMolodinG rishin2017).
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007447_2-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 447.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-3) A Dictionary of Archaeology, edited by Ian Shaw, Robert Jameson, page 517
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-4) Frachetti, Michael David, Pastoralist Landscapes and Social Interaction in Bronze Age Eurasia, pp. 52–3
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007444-7_5-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 444-7.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007443-4_6-0) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007), pp. 443-4.
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007_7-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEAnthony2007_7-1) Anthony 2007 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFAnthony2007).
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-Chernykh2008_8-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-Chernykh2008_8-1) Chernykh, E.N. (2008). "Formation of the Eurasian "Steppe Belt" of Stockbreeding cultures". Archaeology, Ethnology and Anthropology of Eurasia. 35 (3): 36–53. doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1016/j.aeae.2008.11.003 (https://doi.org/10.1016%2Fj.aeae.2008.11.003).
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEChernykh1992p.220-21,_figs._74,_75_9-0) Chernykh 1992 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFChernykh1992), p.220-21, figs. 74, 75.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-FOOTNOTEChristian1998_10-0) Christian 1998 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#CITEREFChristian1998).
^ Jump up to:a (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-BBCKeys_11-0) b (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-BBCKeys_11-1) Keys, David (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Keys_(author)) (January 2009). "Scholars crack the code of an ancient enigma". BBC History Magazine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_History_(magazine)). 10 (1): 9.
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-12) Higham, C.; Higham, T.; Kijngam, A. (2011), "Cutting a Gordian Knot: the Bronze Age of Southeast Asia: origins, timing and impact", Antiquity, 85 (328): 583–598, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1017/S0003598X00067971 (https://doi.org/10.1017%2FS0003598X00067971)
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-13) E. Chernykh The “Steppe Belt” of stockbreeding cultures in Eurasia during the Early Metal Age Trab. Prehist., 65 (2008), pp. 73-93, 10.3989/tp.2008.08004
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-14) C. Der Sarkissian, O. Balanovsky, G. Brandt, V. Khartanovich, A. Buzhilova, S. Koshel, V. Zaporozhchenko, D. Gronenborn, V. Moiseyev, E. Kolpakov, et al., "Genographic Consortium Ancient DNA reveals prehistoric gene-flow from siberia in the complex human population history of North East Europe" PLoS Genet., 9 (2013), p. e1003296
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-15) "The American Journal of Human Genetics: Volume 99, Issue 1: Human Y Chromosome Haplogroup N: A Non-trivial Time-Resolved Phylogeography that Cuts across Language Families", 7 July 2016, Pages 163-173
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-16) http://eujournal.org/index.php/esj/article/view/4182/4018
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-17) Lalueza-Fox, C.; Sampietro, M. L.; Gilbert, M. T. P.; Castri, L.; Facchini, F.; Pettener, D.; Bertranpetit, J. (2004), "Unravelling migrations in the steppe: mitochondrial DNA sequences from ancient central Asians", Proceedings of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences, 271 (1542): 941–947, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1098/rspb.2004.2698 (https://doi.org/10.1098%2Frspb.2004.2698), PMC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Central) 1691686 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1691686), PMID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 15255049 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15255049)
^ (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seima-Turbino_phenomenon#cite_ref-18) Keyser, Christine; Bouakaze, Caroline; Crubézy, Eric; Nikolaev, Valery G.; Montagnon, Daniel; Reis, Tatiana; Ludes, Bertrand (2009), "Ancient DNA provides new insights into the history of south Siberian Kurgan people", Human Genetics, 126 (3): 395–410, doi (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1007/s00439-009-0683-0 (https://doi.org/10.1007%2Fs00439-009-0683-0), PMID (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 19449030 (https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19449030)


bye bye little Goebels
As far as I know, Seima Turbino might have not been Uralic speakers. There's not a consensus over them.

LABERIA
09-05-19, 20:47
Hellenism and the making of modern Greece: time, language, space (https://www.academia.edu/2346618/Hellenism_and_the_making_of_modern_Greece_time_lan guage_space)


Antonis Liakos (Athens)

Learning to be Greeks through the appropriation of historical time, language identity and space symbolism


I awoke with this marble head in my hands
which exhausts my elbows and I do not know where to
set it down.
It was falling into the dream as I was coming out of the
dream.
Our lives joined thus and it will be difficult to part
them.
George Seferis, Mythical Story



3. Revivalism





Greek historiography is a product of the Greek national state. During the foundation of the new state the constitutive myth was the resurrection of the mythical phoenix. Its significance was that Greece resurrected itself, like the mythical Phoenix, after having been under the subjugation of the Macedonians, the Romans, the Byzantines, and the Turks. The first rector of the University of Athens in 1837, Constantine Schinas, referred to the metaphor of an enslaved Greece handed over by the Macedonians to the Romans and then by the Byzantines to the Turks. That was the first official imagination of Greek history in the aftermath of the war of liberation in 1821. As a consequence, the primary period that was incorporated into the national feeling of history was the period of classical Antiquity. The appropriation of this period was established during the period of the Enlightenment’s influence on Greece, in the fifty years or so before the Greek revolution, and, though not without disagreement or reservation from the post-Byzantine tradition of the Orthodox Church, it proved quite strong so to prevail in the national consciousness of Modern Greeks. Yet, in contrast to most young nations which were expected to construct their own self-image, the myth of Ancient Greece was also powerful outside the Greek-speaking society of the Ottoman Empire. Modern Greeks acquired a passport, without much pain, compare for instance to Balkan neighbours or other new-born nations, to introduce themselves to Europe and the world.

The story of how the myth of Ancient Greece was incorporated into Modern Greek nationalideology is complex and controversial. The most powerful tradition in Europe, even before the creation of national states, was the tradition of written texts: Greek, Latin and Hebrew. This written tradition was the corpus and the locus where pre-national history were shaped. Before the emergence of nation-states, myths of national origins were connected to this written tradition. Greeks appropriated a great part of this learned tradition and transformed it into a national tradition. This appropriation was not an isolated case. Hellenism, as a cultural topos, was an intellectual product of the Renaissance, which was subsequently renovated through intellectual trends ranging from the Enlightenment to the Romanticism. As concepts, Hellenism and Revival were strictly interconnected. Had the concept of the Renaissance introduced a threefold concept of time (Ancient, Medieval and Modern), revivalism was established as the intellectual model in culture. In this sense, each major change in culture, until romanticism, was presented as a phenomenon of revival. Indeed, nationalism can be defined, in this framework, as the “myth of historical renovation”. The incorporation of Antiquity, as a result, constitutes not simply the beginning of the national narrative but actually the construction of the object of this narrative. For Greeks, to feel as national subjects means to internalize their relationship with Ancient Greece.

The revival of Antiquity in Modern Greece was not aimed exclusively at the legitimization of genealogy, because Classical Antiquity was also projected as the ideal model for the organization of a modern society. One of the most important works of early modern Greek historiography, George Kozakis Tipaldos’ Philosophical essay on the progress and decline of old Greece (1839), reflects this attitude. The exemplary and nomothetic function of the ancient world does not concern exclusively the construction of the Modern Greek state. It constitutes part of a transcultural tradition. This important functional role of the other (i.e., the Ancient) world, deeply embedded in historical consciousness, relates to notions of authority, power, holiness and truth. In this way the concepts with which we understand the world should originate from another world in the remote past. To this same tradition could be ascribed the uses of the Torah for Israel, and of the Koran and the Sharia for the Muslim nations.


4. Continuity





During the first decades of Greek independence, the initial present-past relationship was composed of two alternative poles: the national resurrection (the 1821 Revolution and the formation of the Greek state) and Classical Antiquity. The myth of the reborn Phoenix, however, was too weak to sustain a national ideology, especially since it involved an immense time gap. Moreover, it excluded an important part of present experience, the religious one. The blank pages of Greek history became visible in the middle of the 19th century. In 1852, the historian, Spyridon Zambelios, pointed out, “We only hope that all those scattered and torn pieces of our history will be articulated and acquired completeness and unity”. Filling these gaps meant furnishing criteria and signification in order to appropriate different periods such as the Macedonian domination of Greece, the Hellenistic and Roman period, the Byzantine era, along with the Venetian and Ottoman rule.

In this view, history is identified with the nation’s mission and as a consequence, it is Divine Providence that attributes a certain meaning to it. The temporal incorporation also refers to the nation's relation with the surrounding world. In other words, it constitutes a national reading of world history. This is a reading of world history from a Eurocentric point of view.. In fact, this perspective lays the foundations of a dialectic between European and Greek national historiography. On the one hand, it aims at the emancipation of national history encapsulated in a European point of view (the contempt for Byzantium as a degeneration of the Roman empire) while on the other, it evaluates national history for its contribution to European history, that is, the history of Western civilization.

The filling of these gaps was the task of Greek historiography during the second half of nineteenth century. The incorporation into the national narrative of the periods that would contribute to the making of national history took place in stages which endures more than three generations of historians, from Koraes to Paparrigopoulos and then to Lambros, and not without objection and cultural debate. The timing of each temporal incorporation was a function of a relationship between the Greek and western European historiography. For example, the appropriation of the Macedonian and Hellenistic periods, through the concept of national supremacy, was facilitated by the disjuncture of the concept of civic freedom from classical Greece. Within the debate concerning the re-evaluation of the Hellenistic period (in German historiography of the 19th century), it became possible to present Hellenism (with the meaning and the cultural characteristics that were attributed to it at the time) as the predecessor of Christianity and to establish the imperial ideal (especially in the works of Johann Gustav Droysen). However, the contempt for Byzantium of Voltaire, Gibbon and Hegel, in other words the negative attitude that developed towards it within the framework of the Enlightenment, did not allow it to be incorporated at this stage. Moreover, since “Hellenism”, as a cultural construction of western civilization, was conceived by Philhellenes as the revival of the Ancient to the modern Greece, the rejection of Byzantium along with all other historical periods between the classical age and the Greek revolt in 1821 was unavoidable. To span the huge difference between the classical ideal and the reality of Modern Greece, the concept of decline and fall was inevitable. Besides, the concept of revival itself actually entailed the concept of discontinuity because its mental presupposition is a time of disappearance between the first and the second life. The concept of “relics” omnipresent in the early modern and the romantic culture imposes a moment of death, of mourning and melancholy, but also gives the rhythm of the successive renaissances, revival, re-evolutions, reformations and of all the European cultural phenomena characterized with concepts of a new starting.

But, how was a national narrative possible with such a discontinuity?

The appropriation of the Byzantine period has major significance, since it illustrates the transition from one mental structure of historical imagination to another: from the schema of revival to one of continuity. It is a transition that primarily concerns the concept of historical time. Once this transition has been accomplished, each historical period would find its place within this schema. The result and also partly the cause of this great mental change was the monumental work of Konstantinos Paparrigopoulos History of the Greek Nation (1860-1874). Paparrigopoulos, honored as "national historian", created the grand narrative and introduced a new style in writing Greek national historiography. Although his predecessors had employed the third person in referring to their object, Paparrigopoulos imposed a very dominant use of “we” and “us” in describing the Greeks of the past, in this way identifying the reader with the national subject. In addition, the appropriation of Byzantine history changed the content of national identity and transformed it from an imported by scholars into a native produced product This modification acquired the features of a “revolt” against a view of the national self that had been imposed on Greece by European classicism. This transformation was a response to a general feeling of 19th c. Greek intellectuals: “The Past? Alas, we allow foreigners to present it according to their own prejudices and their own way of thought and interests.”


6. National genealogy



The constitution of the “unity” of Greek history also created its narrative form. The innovation in Paparrigopulos’ work lies in the fact that it reifies Greek history, and organizes it around a main character, giving a different meaning to each period. He introduced the terms First Hellenism, Macedonian Hellenism, Christian Hellenism, Medieval Hellenism, Modern Hellenism. The first Hellenism was ancient Hellenism, i.e. the classical Hellenism that declined after the Peloponnesian Wars. It was succeeded by Macedonian Hellenism, which was actually “a slight transformation of the first Hellenism.” This one was followed by Christian Hellenism, which was later replaced by Medieval Hellenism, which brought Modern Hellenism to life in the 13th century....



Antonis Liakos-Historian Curriculum Vitae (https://antonisliakos.gr/about/)

Yetos
09-05-19, 21:55
As far as I know, Seima Turbino might have not been Uralic speakers. There's not a consensus over them.

hm
might not
might yes,

it was a culture of hg N for certain, so Uralic fits better,
Don't you think.

Besides

The resulting radiocarbon (14C) chronology for the western Siberian sites (22nd–20th centuries cal BC)
Notice the above is the max back, they centuries from Central Asia to reach West Siberia

Hettites who had simmilar are about 1600 BC

Same is the high change of Minyan (NOTICE MINYANS, Not MINOANS) control and culture
to Mycenean control and culture,
ατ 1650 when Hettites are in minor Asia, Myceneans are already here,

so you have to face the dilema,
If Myceneans are from the area, in which Hettites enter, How come they had such similarity, as pre-Hettit culture, Notice Mycenean tombs before 1650 BC, Hatussa 1600 BC. if remember correct.
then you go to the North way, from Yamnaa, to Balkans to South Greece,
there is the other entrance to Greece,
Here you have to find the old Blegen theory, the archiological connection, as described by Giannopoulos.

Why? Cause Mycenean are also the Long Corridor culture, the δρομος as called today, the Σικος and the Πτερον a structure not found in Asia till then, no matter Megalithic structures are even today magnificent.
and their Kurgan are estimated to evolve their way, while their primary earlier form
so Myceneans and kurgans already existed from 2200 BC, in co-existance with Minyans, ?
I did not remember the Archaiologist who found such in Lerna and Leykada.
besides the Mycaenean mettalurgy has nothing to do with Seima Turbino, or with Hettites mettalurgy,
Mycenean is tin vs Copper, Seima is Arsenic vs copper,
Almost same littlelittle bit earlier few centuries but mainly 1 century earlier is the Vucedol-Vatin devstation to Greece, mainly to area of proto-Greeks
the tombs of Cetina as possibly is known to you,
besides we see a strange change to tomb looking like small boxes, non Minoan, since they put them to pottery,
Anyway, it is difficult to distinguish,
but generally we see these strange,
Minyan culture, certainly autochthonus, possible G2 and other, no need to search now
Minoan culture which is J2a with no steppe
No Steppe admixture culture until 2300 BC.
Vucedol vatin culture entrance from North (para-Cetinas) possibly some Hg I
Mycenean culture which is J2a which is ave 14% simmilar even today after the Slavic invasions,

Both populations evolute to Greek till 1600 BC
The Nothern are the proto-Greek or NW dialects or Paleo-Balkan in the area where georgiev puts them
the other is Mycenean and S Greek, a substractum that creates also the inner aspirations of evolution of Greek language, to classical, while some return back due to Makedonian influence in Koine (φορθακα - Βατραχις, Φρεαρ-Βρυση)

the only entrance from East in that era, in the Mycenean world
is the Arzawwa-Asuwa when were hunted by Hettites,
so how come this steppe 14% enter to Myceneans and not to Minoans,
The answer is somewhere above,
or somewhere we can not see until today,

about R1a in balkans
Balkans have a pecculiar very high diversity of R1a,
in other contitions the numerous varities could claim as homeland of r1a Balkans
but we consider it as a sink phenomenon,
the r1a -Z93 found in Thracian tomb is at least a millenium younger,
yet this does not exclude the possibility of being far ancient to pre and proto Thracian or forms that spread from yamnaa
But most possible for me is to be Scythian from Srubnaya.

Anyway Seima Turbino was a culture of N Hg.
although their usage of chariots etc are simmilar to Mycaenean,
but not identical mettalurgy, tin vs arsenic

The time Distance from W Siberia Seima Turbino to the high transform of culture to Mycenean surely is about 4 centuries, and is allowing such aproache and possibility
Yet the other elements of myceane, as also their genetics, and the continuity of Minyans and NW Greeks hmm ... pale colour
the ave 14% steppe could enter from Arzawa, from Vucedol, even from women slaves and marriage,
if 1 out 10 male of a generation takes foreign women, it is about 5% to next male generation?, or I am wrong,
I am not certain for above but seems logicalThat is all,
suggest you see the minyan minoan mycenean pottery to understand.

Aditional if you want to search deeper,
you must search how much Altaic component have the R1a cultures from the main 3 types of R1a in Balkans,
cause in population that has 0 Altaic, it is impossible to be ancestor of a population of that was heaby in Altaic.
so if Myceneans are indead connected with R1a-Z93 of Thracian tombs in Bulgaria then this R1a-Z93 should have limited to zero Altaic component,

Until then the possibilty of Thracian and Mycenean connection via a pre Mycaene, pre Thracian population from somewhere Ukraine and generally N Pontos area is alive, but does not certified,

I hope i make my shelf understood.

to conclude
The gennetics of Mycaeneans Show rather an adaptation of Seima-Turbino mobility,
than a genetical relativity, and continuity.
and until now, this adaptation of Seima-Turbino mobility culture,
is not certified if that enter from S Caucasos before or same time with Hettites, straight from minor Asia,
or via N of Pontos areas. (today ukraine, Georgia, Abhazia etc) via the Thrace. (today Bulgaria)

a good example is Ireland,
no matter the Western country of Europe, and need 2 times to pass the sea,
Yet the Steppe and Altaic components percentages are significant, and surely describe and drive us to certain conclusions
but that does not happens in Helladic space,

Period

Conclusion
So if someone wrote in Forum about Illyria, whatever he wanted, with easy conclusions,
cause there is a late such post somewhere there
this does NOT mean is correct, but rather a biased post, possible for inner-consumption,
We are used to such 'works' of easy conclusion, for easy mass consuption,
sometimes Doctoras are giving to such works, specially to Golden boys of political parties,.
What face here by this 'work', -lets name it such- is this: How come a culture of hg N in 4 centuries pass to a culture of J2 far away, with different genetics, meaning ho Inheritage.
so a possible solution is via R1a -Z93, NOTICE A Possible
so 'OK', we found Gold' Myceneans were Siberians'' :useless: :useless: :useless:
it is typical and easy pass to ignorants, if you make amazing cover, and nice images, and say words like 'Only in'
But is rubbish

the Logic of such works, is the Bellow
Guitar is a Instrument (music)
Policeman is an instrument (of law)
so Policeman is a Guitar.

Do you understand why I wanted to stop Blevins13, before say his 'opinion' which is a work in Illyria forum, but tottaly crap.
But he insisted to spread the crap work, the logic of policeman is a Guitar.
Don't worry, such Forums exist many in Greece, and all over the world,
Using their 'proves' and Logic, I can prove you that Greeks came from Andromeda 200 000 before,
and Seima-turbino were reptilians from the warm area of planet Mars,
I warn many times the Albanians of Forum about a stupid tv-person, who can explain and prove whatever, in Top Channel,
Not to believe him.

look at him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpraT2zpRLQ
he can persuade you that earth is empty inside, and monsters live there, locked, waiting to come out,
He almost persuade Greeks before 1 decade that Incas were Greeks,
it is pathetic, to be easily conviced, and worst is to produce such.

RagnarofMacedon
10-05-19, 12:13
Im reading this discussion and is very good i like it ,i watched newest Lecture about 'The World of Early Macedon' from Prof.Kenneth W.Harl in few times he highlights that "Macedonians were not Greeks at all" , this Professor is very close collegue to Eugene Borza , historian known like "Macedonian Specialist".You can watch it Lecture here ;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s
All rest is on you...

Yetos
10-05-19, 13:53
I know most of scholar who do not believe makedonian were Greeks,
But this belong also to above post I wrote,

There is an evolution of aspiration from Proto-Greek to Attic and etc S Greek languages,
that is noticed and specified many times, and for many is a distinguish among Greeks and 'non Greeks'
Some consider Greeks only the Mycenean World, and not the NW dialects,
the ancient Makedonian Language is written by Hesychios of Alexandreia,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria

generally there is a difference among proto-Makedonians and Makedonian Kingdom Makedonians
the primary Makedonians are the Lokroi, of Upper Makedonia
and the Argeiades (the Dynasty) of central Makedonia,

Secondary group is The Brygians
the term Edessa is from Brygian origin.
Herodotus places them to Thracians,
modern Linguists consider them as Paleo-Balkans, Centum with Satem cover due to Thracians,
The Brygian homeland is in today Albania,
When the Illyrians came they were Pushed to Makedonia and Paionia (today Slavic Makedonia)
They finally left for minor Asia, while their remnants are the Mygdones,
they fully assimilated to makedonian kingdom,
There is strange connection among Brygians and Makedonians, a hiden relativity, a mystery,
Notice when Alexander was in Gordion Phrygia, did not sleep, cause he expected and hoped to that connection,
so Phrygians support him against Persia,

a Third nation is Bottiaioi,
Strabo names them as Cretans in origin,

Now I will refer to Aristoteles,
Aristoteles maention the Dodona, the most Sacred place of NW Greek dialect speakers
the other is central Greece the river Hellanas, the games
the games of Hellanas were moved to Olympia to make the Olympic games.
well Aristoteles Uses 2 words for the people and priests of Dodona Epiros,
ΓΡΑΙΚΟΙ, ΣΕΛΛΟΙ, Graikoi, Selloi
meaning Greek and Hellanes, (Sol <-> Hellios)

Yet Phillip of Makedon, moves to Samothraca in Thrace, to the ancient Kabeires to get married, a priestress
So the Makedonian Kingdom is mainly a unification among the Makedonians and the Brygians,
which later, sometimes violent, assimilated the Cretans Bottiaioi.

So
Primary thoughts of those who did not accept ancient Makedonians as Greek nation is because they were not Myceneans, and outside Mycenean world,
Makedonian Necropolis have their own style Tumuli, sometimes very affected by Mycenean arxhitecture and style.
Yet Makedonians never claimed Mycenean ancestry as far as I know, but from Heracles, they were Herakleidae,
and because lately I heard about Hercules = Mycaene,
yet in Sparta we see that Hercules was introduce by Dorians, (and was not an Atreides, meaning Hercules although born in Argos might not be connected with Mycenean,)
(Argos gives 2 Heroes, Heracles, and Perseus )
who are Hellanes so Selloi,
herodotus names clearly Dorians Ελληνικον and nothing to do with Pelasgians,
Makedonians also claim Heracles and Dorians as ancestry.
that is why Argeiads (Makedonians) did not burn Sparta,but punish them with eternal shame (Αλεξανδρος και Ελληνες πλην Λακεδαιμονιοις / Notice uses the Mycenean name, not the Dorian one Sparta)

Secondary is their language,
Makedonian dialect or Language belongs to NW Greek ones, the primitive ones comparing the Classical Greek
so Θαλασσα them is Δαλαγχαν Thalassa-Dalagha D-Θ Dios Theos
also Berenika Ferenike
Kefale Keb(a)le B<-> F (ph)
HERE Must Notice that PIE had B and D and especially Θ maybe did exist in PIE, so NW Greek Dialects -among them Makedonian- are primitive Closer to PIE comparing Classical Greek
and Greek and Brygian were Isotones languages


I wil stop here,
it is like Scands or English with Deutsch, or Dutch with Austrian,
they are Germanic, with their own way each.
imagine a modern English with a proto-Germanic speaker.
or a Latino-Iberian with a Roman

markod
10-05-19, 14:10
Im reading this discussion and is very good i like it ,i watched newest Lecture about 'The World of Early Macedon' from Prof.Kenneth W.Harl in few times he highlights that "Macedonians were not Greeks at all" , this Professor is very close collegue to Eugene Borza , historian known like "Macedonian Specialist".You can watch it Lecture here ;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=4s
All rest is on you...

The consensus is that they were Greeks or para-Greeks. Mycenaeans too were technically para-Greeks, and classical Greeks would have had significant difficulties understanding them. With Macedonians the evidence suggests that Attic Greeks could in fact understand bits and pieces of vernacular Macedonian (see Curtius Rufus). It all comes down to your definition of 'Greek' I guess.

RagnarofMacedon
11-05-19, 02:41
The consensus is that they were Greeks or para-Greeks. Mycenaeans too were technically para-Greeks, and classical Greeks would have had significant difficulties understanding them. With Macedonians the evidence suggests that Attic Greeks could in fact understand bits and pieces of vernacular Macedonian (see Curtius Rufus). It all comes down to your definition of 'Greek' I guess.

No he clearly said that Macedonians were not Greeks at all , but many of them ( Barbarians ) accepted Hellenism or so called Greek culture and language , nor in that time Greeks considered Macedonians like Greeks , or we watched different Lecture ?
Also said that NON-Greeks were not allowed to marry GREEK womans unless they accept Greek culture and Language ( In that time Hellenism was big thing ), so Phillip II Macedon accepted Greek culture and language to marry Olympia (Epirus Greek) , so Alexander III of Macedon was half greek half Macedonian.
Also he said when Macedonian warriors talking with Alexander they using their own language ( Macedonian ) , because Greeks can not understand them...
Are you wondering why 50,000 Greeks fight for Persian side Against Alexander and Macedonian in war?
Or what happened on Teba River ?
Or why in Macedonian phallags of 37,000 warrior only 7.000 were Hellenes ?
Anyways in that time Hellenism was more likely political thing than ethnic ?
Hellenes was different type of ethnicities Assyrians,Persian,Egyptians,Jews...
Anyways he clearly said that Macedonian were not Greeks at all , nor Greeks considered them in that time like Greeks, they were most similar to Thracians...

And stop with Bullshiet and propaganda thanks...

Yetos
11-05-19, 04:47
No he clearly said that Macedonians were not Greeks at all , but many of them ( Barbarians ) accepted Hellenism or so called Greek culture and language , nor in that time Greeks considered Macedonians like Greeks , or we watched different Lecture ?
Also said that NON-Greeks were not allowed to marry GREEK womans unless they accept Greek culture and Language ( In that time Hellenism was big thing ), so Phillip II Macedon accepted Greek culture and language to marry Olympia (Epirus Greek) , so Alexander III of Macedon was half greek half Macedonian.
Also he said when Macedonian warriors talking with Alexander they using their own language ( Macedonian ) , because Greeks can not understand them...
Are you wondering why 50,000 Greeks fight for Persian side Against Alexander and Macedonian in war?
Or what happened on Teba River ?
Or why in Macedonian phallags of 37,000 warrior only 7.000 were Hellenes ?
Anyways in that time Hellenism was more likely political thing than ethnic ?
Hellenes was different type of ethnicities Assyrians,Persian,Egyptians,Jews...
Anyways he clearly said that Macedonian were not Greeks at all , nor Greeks considered them in that time like Greeks, they were most similar to Thracians...

And stop with Bullshiet and propaganda thanks...

ok

As you like,

It does not matter what he Believes,
But what The Makedonians Believe,
So what he says, is just ....

and since Ancient spoke the language that is written in Hesychios,
since they believe them shelves as Greeks,
why I should change them today,

Why should I trust a modern scholar,
and not the many Ancient sources?

Does it matter what Borza believes, 2300 years after?
When the Makedonians claim other things?
and we have their language written down !!!
At least can Borza tell us wht Language the Makedonians spoke?
I Prefer to believe Strabo book VII chapter 9, who was alive that era,

and plz Don't mix Makedonians with Makedonian kingdom,
makedonian Kingdom had assimilated a lot of thracian tribes.

blevins13
11-05-19, 15:26
ok

As you like,

It does not matter what he Believes,
But what The Makedonians Believe,
So what he says, is just ....

and since Ancient spoke the language that is written in Hesychios,
since they believe them shelves as Greeks,
why I should change them today,

Why should I trust a modern scholar,
and not the many Ancient sources?

Does it matter what Borza believes, 2300 years after?
When the Makedonians claim other things?
and we have their language written down !!!
At least can Borza tell us wht Language the Makedonians spoke?
I Prefer to believe Strabo book VII chapter 9, who was alive that era,

and plz Don't mix Makedonians with Makedonian kingdom,
makedonian Kingdom had assimilated a lot of thracian tribes.

Yes we should ask Greeks of Anatolia if they believe if they are Macedonian......This certainly makes sense.

11016


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markod
11-05-19, 16:03
No he clearly said that Macedonians were not Greeks at all , but many of them ( Barbarians ) accepted Hellenism or so called Greek culture and language , nor in that time Greeks considered Macedonians like Greeks , or we watched different Lecture ?
Also said that NON-Greeks were not allowed to marry GREEK womans unless they accept Greek culture and Language ( In that time Hellenism was big thing ), so Phillip II Macedon accepted Greek culture and language to marry Olympia (Epirus Greek) , so Alexander III of Macedon was half greek half Macedonian.
Also he said when Macedonian warriors talking with Alexander they using their own language ( Macedonian ) , because Greeks can not understand them...
Are you wondering why 50,000 Greeks fight for Persian side Against Alexander and Macedonian in war?
Or what happened on Teba River ?
Or why in Macedonian phallags of 37,000 warrior only 7.000 were Hellenes ?
Anyways in that time Hellenism was more likely political thing than ethnic ?
Hellenes was different type of ethnicities Assyrians,Persian,Egyptians,Jews...
Anyways he clearly said that Macedonian were not Greeks at all , nor Greeks considered them in that time like Greeks, they were most similar to Thracians...

And stop with Bullshiet and propaganda thanks...

Welll he's wrong. Curtius actually says ".. understand them better." . That suggests Macedonian wasn't completely foreign to Attic speakers.

LABERIA
11-05-19, 20:12
But to Demosthenes the Macedonian was completely foreign, but of course nothing to do with slavs.

markod
11-05-19, 22:59
But to Demosthenes the Macedonian was completely foreign, but of course nothing to do with slavs.

You're conflating two issues. The question whether Macedonians were Hellenes and the question whether they were Greeks in the scientific sense. The Mycenaeans weren't Hellenes but they were Greek.

Fatherland
12-05-19, 00:16
From what I observed, and I am always right: Only the Albanians ITT wrote sensible posts.

The others, lashed out with projections of their own insecurities.

Yetos
12-05-19, 06:20
Yes we should ask Greeks of Anatolia if they believe if they are Macedonian......This certainly makes sense.

11016


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Interesting the observation of yours,
But as always just the serpent spreads poison, Waiting for its ihead to be smashed,
Again scratching the sheperd's bat.


For Blevis13 the one who told us that Mycenean spoke Uralic and were hg Ydna N

How Others call the Makedonians
The era of Makedonian Kingdom before Alexandros
All minor Asia and Thrace were under Persian occupation,
Naqsh e Rostam Royal tombs of Achamenides
The Satrapies of Dareios



baga \ vazraka \ Auramazdâ \ hya \ im
âm \ bumâm \ adâ \ hya \ avam \ asm
ânam \ adâ \ hya \ martiyam \ adâ \ h
ya \ šiyâtim \ adâ \ martiyahyâ
\ hya \ Dârayavaum \ xšâyathiyam \ ak
unauš \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ xšâyath
iyam \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ framâtâ
ram \ adam \ Dârayavauš \ xšâyathiya \ va
zraka \ xšâyathiya \ xšâyathiyânâm
\ xšâyathiya \ dahyûnâm \ vispazanâ
nâm \ xšâyathiya \ ahyâyâ \ bûmi
yâ \ vazrakâyâ \ dûraiapiy \ Vištâs
pahyâ \ puça \ Haxâmanišiya \ Pârsa \ P
ârsahyâ \ puça \ Ariya \ Ariya \ ci
ça \ thâtiy \ Dârayavauš \ xšâya
thiya \ vašnâ \ Auramazdâhâ \ imâ \
dahyâva \ tyâ \ adam \ agarbâyam \
apataram \ hacâ \ Pârsâ \ adamšâm \
patiyaxšayaiy \ manâ \ bâjim \ abara
ha \ tvašâm \ hacâma \ athahya \ ava \ a
kunava \ dâtam \ tya \ manâ \ avadiš \
adâraiya \ Mâda \ Ûvja \ Parthava \ Harai
va \ Bâxtriš \ Suguda \ Uvârazm
iš \ Zraka \ Harauvatiš \ Thataguš \ Ga
dâra \ Hiduš \ Sakâ \ haumavargâ \ Sa
kâ \ tigraxaudâ \ Bâbiruš \ A
thurâ \ Arabâya \ Mudrâya \ Armina
\ Katpatuka \ Sparda \ Yauna \ Sakâ \ tyaiy \ pa
radraya \Skudra \ Yaunâ \ takabarâ \ Putây
â \ Kûšiyâ \ Maciyâ \ Karkâ \ thâtiy \ D


YAUNA in Greeks is Iones Ιωνες

Most of Anatolian, Arab, and generally East of Greeks, call the Greeks Yauna, Yunan, Yauva
Most West of Greece call the Greeks as Greeks,

So at Dareios Tomb are written the Satrapies he ruled,
We see 2 times the word Yauna,
1 as Yauna alone = The Ionia, The Anatolian Greek, The Greeks of minor Asia
2 as Yauna Takabara = Makedonia, The Greeks with flat hat, (shield hat) due to καυσια.

Same we found at Sussa Behistan Persepolis etc


So Blevins13,
You not of Mycenan ancestry, (neither do I),
Myceneans were not hg Ydna N, and did not spoke Uralic
and in Anatolia and generally East where you see Yauna Yavan Yunan means Greek,


THE GREEKS by their modern Persians

Yauna = Ionia (minor Asian Greeks)
Yauna Takabara (Makedonians)
Yauna Drayahya (Central Greeks)
Yauna Paradraya (N Aegean islands and Thrace, not the Thracians, Skudra)
Sparda (Sparta)


hmm
NOW I MUST THANK YOU BLEVINS13,
For giving me this fantastic IDEA, to mention, notice and post,
how the moderns of Makedonian Kingdom, Persians use to call them.


btw
I should be a healer, specialized in hazardous reptile poisons.









Bye bye Blevins13
These are not Anatolian Greeks, its Obvious what they believe.
https://sanshmerafilonoi.gr/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/6-e1bcb0cebfcf85cebdceafcebfcf85-1906-cf83cf84e1bdb6cf82-cf86cf85cebbceb1cebae1bdb2cf82-cf84cebfe1bfa6-cebccebfcebdceb1cf83cf84ceb7cf812.jpg

LABERIA
12-05-19, 07:26
You're conflating two issues. The question whether Macedonians were Hellenes and the question whether they were Greeks in the scientific sense. The Mycenaeans weren't Hellenes but they were Greek.
Send a PM to him and ask for an explanation.

LABERIA
12-05-19, 07:31
Yes we should ask Greeks of Anatolia if they believe if they are Macedonian......This certainly makes sense.

11016


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

https://nomadicuniversality.com/2017/11/10/h-%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%C E%B7-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%C F%83/
(https://nomadicuniversality.com/2017/11/10/h-%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%C E%B7-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%C F%83/)
http://ngradio.gr/blog/foivos-piompinos-blog/poioi-einai-mpafralides/
(http://ngradio.gr/blog/foivos-piompinos-blog/poioi-einai-mpafralides/)
Very interesting articles. Use the Google translator.

Yetos
12-05-19, 07:55
https://nomadicuniversality.com/2017/11/10/h-%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%C E%B7-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%C F%83/
(https://nomadicuniversality.com/2017/11/10/h-%CE%B1%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%CF%83%C E%B7-%CF%84%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%80%CE%BF%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%AF%CF%89%CE%BD-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%B5%CE%BE%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%B7%CE%BD%CE%B9%C F%83/)
http://ngradio.gr/blog/foivos-piompinos-blog/poioi-einai-mpafralides/
(http://ngradio.gr/blog/foivos-piompinos-blog/poioi-einai-mpafralides/)
Very interesting articles. Use the Google translator.

hahahahaha

When the fox can not reach the crapes,
say that they sour


Laberia
https://image.slidesharecdn.com/thefoxandthegrapes-140514032757-phpapp02/95/the-fox-and-the-grapes-6-638.jpg?cb=1400038105



as always, the 'I have nothing to say'
DO THEY LOOK LIKE ANATOLIAN GREEKS TO YOU?

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-0JlpxcuTu_s/U579DJVkhOI/AAAAAAAAKZs/-d-jDy6eME0/s1600/%CE%A0%CE%B1%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%BF%CF%82%CE%9C%CE%B5%C E%BB%CE%AC%CF%82%CE%A3%CF%8E%CE%BC%CE%B1.jpg

Yetos
12-05-19, 07:58
Ok another post out of subject by the 2 certain Albanians (Albano-NAZI)
who always have nothing to say, but they 'say', and only spread poison and throw mud on every thread about Greeks, I will ask to be removed,

blevins13
12-05-19, 10:54
How typical of you

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Interesting the observation of yours,
But as always just the serpent spreads poison, Waiting for its ihead to be smashed,
Again scratching the sheperd's bat.


For Blevis13 the one who told us that Mycenean spoke Uralic and were hg Ydna N

How Others call the Makedonians
The era of Makedonian Kingdom before Alexandros
All minor Asia and Thrace were under Persian occupation,
Naqsh e Rostam Royal tombs of Achamenides
The Satrapies of Dareios



baga \ vazraka \ Auramazdâ \ hya \ im
âm \ bumâm \ adâ \ hya \ avam \ asm
ânam \ adâ \ hya \ martiyam \ adâ \ h
ya \ šiyâtim \ adâ \ martiyahyâ
\ hya \ Dârayavaum \ xšâyathiyam \ ak
unauš \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ xšâyath
iyam \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ framâtâ
ram \ adam \ Dârayavauš \ xšâyathiya \ va
zraka \ xšâyathiya \ xšâyathiyânâm
\ xšâyathiya \ dahyûnâm \ vispazanâ
nâm \ xšâyathiya \ ahyâyâ \ bûmi
yâ \ vazrakâyâ \ dûraiapiy \ Vištâs
pahyâ \ puça \ Haxâmanišiya \ Pârsa \ P
ârsahyâ \ puça \ Ariya \ Ariya \ ci
ça \ thâtiy \ Dârayavauš \ xšâya
thiya \ vašnâ \ Auramazdâhâ \ imâ \
dahyâva \ tyâ \ adam \ agarbâyam \
apataram \ hacâ \ Pârsâ \ adamšâm \
patiyaxšayaiy \ manâ \ bâjim \ abara
ha \ tvašâm \ hacâma \ athahya \ ava \ a
kunava \ dâtam \ tya \ manâ \ avadiš \
adâraiya \ Mâda \ Ûvja \ Parthava \ Harai
va \ Bâxtriš \ Suguda \ Uvârazm
iš \ Zraka \ Harauvatiš \ Thataguš \ Ga
dâra \ Hiduš \ Sakâ \ haumavargâ \ Sa
kâ \ tigraxaudâ \ Bâbiruš \ A
thurâ \ Arabâya \ Mudrâya \ Armina
\ Katpatuka \ Sparda \ Yauna \ Sakâ \ tyaiy \ pa
radraya \Skudra \ Yaunâ \ takabarâ \ Putây
â \ Kûšiyâ \ Maciyâ \ Karkâ \ thâtiy \ D


YAUNA in Greeks is Iones Ιωνες

Most of Anatolian, Arab, and generally East of Greeks, call the Greeks Yauna, Yunan, Yauva
Most West of Greece call the Greeks as Greeks,

So at Dareios Tomb are written the Satrapies he ruled,
We see 2 times the word Yauna,
1 as Yauna alone = The Ionia, The Anatolian Greek, The Greeks of minor Asia
2 as Yauna Takabara = Makedonia, The Greeks with flat hat, (shield hat) due to καυσια.

Same we found at Sussa Behistan Persepolis etc


So Blevins13,
You not of Mycenan ancestry, (neither do I),
Myceneans were not hg Ydna N, and did not spoke Uralic
and in Anatolia and generally East where you see Yauna Yavan Yunan means Greek,


THE GREEKS by their modern Persians

Yauna = Ionia (minor Asian Greeks)
Yauna Takabara (Makedonians)
Yauna Drayahya (Central Greeks)
Yauna Paradraya (N Aegean islands and Thrace, not the Thracians, Skudra)
Sparda (Sparta)


hmm
NOW I MUST THANK YOU BLEVINS13,
For giving me this fantastic IDEA, to mention, notice and post,
how the moderns of Makedonian Kingdom, Persians use to call them.


btw
I should be a healer, specialized in hazardous reptile poisons.









Bye bye Blevins13
These are not Anatolian Greeks, its Obvious what they believe.
https://sanshmerafilonoi.gr/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/6-e1bcb0cebfcf85cebdceafcebfcf85-1906-cf83cf84e1bdb6cf82-cf86cf85cebbceb1cebae1bdb2cf82-cf84cebfe1bfa6-cebccebfcebdceb1cf83cf84ceb7cf812.jpg


I never said Mycenaean spoke Uralic you did. I said that have nothing to do with Kurgan people because they are related to Seima - Turbino Culture, while Ancient Macedonian have a lot to do with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials not shaft graves.
Read again this info, it seems you have forgotten it.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

So it seems that Macedonians had nothing to do with Mycenaean and with modern Greeks (after population exchange).


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Piro Ilir
12-05-19, 14:38
hm
might not
might yes,

it was a culture of hg N for certain, so Uralic fits better,
Don't you think.

Besides

The resulting radiocarbon (14C) chronology for the western Siberian sites (22nd–20th centuries cal BC)
Notice the above is the max back, they centuries from Central Asia to reach West Siberia

Hettites who had simmilar are about 1600 BC

Same is the high change of Minyan (NOTICE MINYANS, Not MINOANS) control and culture
to Mycenean control and culture,
ατ 1650 when Hettites are in minor Asia, Myceneans are already here,

so you have to face the dilema,
If Myceneans are from the area, in which Hettites enter, How come they had such similarity, as pre-Hettit culture, Notice Mycenean tombs before 1650 BC, Hatussa 1600 BC. if remember correct.
then you go to the North way, from Yamnaa, to Balkans to South Greece,
there is the other entrance to Greece,
Here you have to find the old Blegen theory, the archiological connection, as described by Giannopoulos.

Why? Cause Mycenean are also the Long Corridor culture, the δρομος as called today, the Σικος and the Πτερον a structure not found in Asia till then, no matter Megalithic structures are even today magnificent.
and their Kurgan are estimated to evolve their way, while their primary earlier form
so Myceneans and kurgans already existed from 2200 BC, in co-existance with Minyans, ?
I did not remember the Archaiologist who found such in Lerna and Leykada.
besides the Mycaenean mettalurgy has nothing to do with Seima Turbino, or with Hettites mettalurgy,
Mycenean is tin vs Copper, Seima is Arsenic vs copper,
Almost same littlelittle bit earlier few centuries but mainly 1 century earlier is the Vucedol-Vatin devstation to Greece, mainly to area of proto-Greeks
the tombs of Cetina as possibly is known to you,
besides we see a strange change to tomb looking like small boxes, non Minoan, since they put them to pottery,
Anyway, it is difficult to distinguish,
but generally we see these strange,
Minyan culture, certainly autochthonus, possible G2 and other, no need to search now
Minoan culture which is J2a with no steppe
No Steppe admixture culture until 2300 BC.
Vucedol vatin culture entrance from North (para-Cetinas) possibly some Hg I
Mycenean culture which is J2a which is ave 14% simmilar even today after the Slavic invasions,

Both populations evolute to Greek till 1600 BC
The Nothern are the proto-Greek or NW dialects or Paleo-Balkan in the area where georgiev puts them
the other is Mycenean and S Greek, a substractum that creates also the inner aspirations of evolution of Greek language, to classical, while some return back due to Makedonian influence in Koine (φορθακα - Βατραχις, Φρεαρ-Βρυση)

the only entrance from East in that era, in the Mycenean world
is the Arzawwa-Asuwa when were hunted by Hettites,
so how come this steppe 14% enter to Myceneans and not to Minoans,
The answer is somewhere above,
or somewhere we can not see until today,

about R1a in balkans
Balkans have a pecculiar very high diversity of R1a,
in other contitions the numerous varities could claim as homeland of r1a Balkans
but we consider it as a sink phenomenon,
the r1a -Z93 found in Thracian tomb is at least a millenium younger,
yet this does not exclude the possibility of being far ancient to pre and proto Thracian or forms that spread from yamnaa
But most possible for me is to be Scythian from Srubnaya.

Anyway Seima Turbino was a culture of N Hg.
although their usage of chariots etc are simmilar to Mycaenean,
but not identical mettalurgy, tin vs arsenic

The time Distance from W Siberia Seima Turbino to the high transform of culture to Mycenean surely is about 4 centuries, and is allowing such aproache and possibility
Yet the other elements of myceane, as also their genetics, and the continuity of Minyans and NW Greeks hmm ... pale colour
the ave 14% steppe could enter from Arzawa, from Vucedol, even from women slaves and marriage,
if 1 out 10 male of a generation takes foreign women, it is about 5% to next male generation?, or I am wrong,
I am not certain for above but seems logicalThat is all,
suggest you see the minyan minoan mycenean pottery to understand.

Aditional if you want to search deeper,
you must search how much Altaic component have the R1a cultures from the main 3 types of R1a in Balkans,
cause in population that has 0 Altaic, it is impossible to be ancestor of a population of that was heaby in Altaic.
so if Myceneans are indead connected with R1a-Z93 of Thracian tombs in Bulgaria then this R1a-Z93 should have limited to zero Altaic component,

Until then the possibilty of Thracian and Mycenean connection via a pre Mycaene, pre Thracian population from somewhere Ukraine and generally N Pontos area is alive, but does not certified,

I hope i make my shelf understood.

to conclude
The gennetics of Mycaeneans Show rather an adaptation of Seima-Turbino mobility,
than a genetical relativity, and continuity.
and until now, this adaptation of Seima-Turbino mobility culture,
is not certified if that enter from S Caucasos before or same time with Hettites, straight from minor Asia,
or via N of Pontos areas. (today ukraine, Georgia, Abhazia etc) via the Thrace. (today Bulgaria)

a good example is Ireland,
no matter the Western country of Europe, and need 2 times to pass the sea,
Yet the Steppe and Altaic components percentages are significant, and surely describe and drive us to certain conclusions
but that does not happens in Helladic space,

Period

Conclusion
So if someone wrote in Forum about Illyria, whatever he wanted, with easy conclusions,
cause there is a late such post somewhere there
this does NOT mean is correct, but rather a biased post, possible for inner-consumption,
We are used to such 'works' of easy conclusion, for easy mass consuption,
sometimes Doctoras are giving to such works, specially to Golden boys of political parties,.
What face here by this 'work', -lets name it such- is this: How come a culture of hg N in 4 centuries pass to a culture of J2 far away, with different genetics, meaning ho Inheritage.
so a possible solution is via R1a -Z93, NOTICE A Possible
so 'OK', we found Gold' Myceneans were Siberians'' :useless: :useless: :useless:
it is typical and easy pass to ignorants, if you make amazing cover, and nice images, and say words like 'Only in'
But is rubbish

the Logic of such works, is the Bellow
Guitar is a Instrument (music)
Policeman is an instrument (of law)
so Policeman is a Guitar.

Do you understand why I wanted to stop Blevins13, before say his 'opinion' which is a work in Illyria forum, but tottaly crap.
But he insisted to spread the crap work, the logic of policeman is a Guitar.
Don't worry, such Forums exist many in Greece, and all over the world,
Using their 'proves' and Logic, I can prove you that Greeks came from Andromeda 200 000 before,
and Seima-turbino were reptilians from the warm area of planet Mars,
I warn many times the Albanians of Forum about a stupid tv-person, who can explain and prove whatever, in Top Channel,
Not to believe him.

look at him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpraT2zpRLQ
he can persuade you that earth is empty inside, and monsters live there, locked, waiting to come out,
He almost persuade Greeks before 1 decade that Incas were Greeks,
it is pathetic, to be easily conviced, and worst is to produce such.

How you pinpoint that Seima Turbino were haplo N people? Is there any evidence or sample from them? They might have been haplo 'R1a as well.

I don't know what's your point. Are you saying that Mycenaeans weren't IE people, but they were some Neolithic G2 haplo people?
I think that Mycenaean IE heritage is clear. Their language was IE. So were the Tracians, even if Ev13 in Tracians might have outnumbered their true original IE haplo.

We have proves from history that during the bronze age there were polities ruled by IE elites, while the common ordinary people were not IE. (Mittani, Cassites)

Yetos
12-05-19, 14:44
I never said Mycenaean spoke Uralic you did. I said that have nothing to do with Kurgan people because they are related to Seima - Turbino Culture, while Ancient Macedonian have a lot to do with Kurgan culture and tumulus burials not shaft graves.
Read again this info, it seems you have forgotten it.
https://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek

So it seems that Macedonians had nothing to do with Mycenaean and with modern Greeks (after population exchange).


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

No comment mr I said, I did not.

Yetos
12-05-19, 14:45
How you pinpoint that Seima Turbino were haplo N people? Is there any evidence or sample from them? They might have been haplo 'R1a as well.

I don't know what's your point. Are you saying that Mycenaeans weren't IE people, but they were some Neolithic G2 haplo people?
I think that Mycenaean IE heritage is clear. Their language was IE. So were the Tracians, even if Ev13 in Tracians might have outnumbered their true original IE haplo.

We have proves from history that during the bronze age there were polities ruled by IE elites, while the common ordinary people were not IE. (Mittani, Cassites)

Ydna Hg N3a1-B211

Pirro, plz don't be like the other 2 'known' guys,

here is your answer,
and plz go to that stupid of Illyria forum, and tell to stop crap, and toilet work pappers.


''Another pattern involves the similarity in the range of hg N3a3’6, especially in the western part of Eurasia and the distribution of the Seima-Turbino trans-cultural phenomenon during the interval of 4.2–3.7 kya.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Extending across northern Eurasia from Mongolia to the Baltic region, this phenomenon encompasses the cultures of nomadic forest and steppe societies with advanced metal-working technology.51 (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bib51) Taken together, these facts hint at the Seima-Turbino metalsmith-traders as the probable primary carriers of hg N3a3’6 lineages.''

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929716301604#bbib49

Piro Ilir
12-05-19, 15:04
The consensus is that they were Greeks or para-Greeks. Mycenaeans too were technically para-Greeks, and classical Greeks would have had significant difficulties understanding them. With Macedonians the evidence suggests that Attic Greeks could in fact understand bits and pieces of vernacular Macedonian (see Curtius Rufus). It all comes down to your definition of 'Greek' I guess.

Hence, you are an English from Germany because you write in English!...

They were considered as part of Hellenic world only after the Persian Hellenic war.
Alexander I of Macedon, the philhellene.

From the time of Mardonius' conquest of Macedon, Alexander I is referred to as hyparchos by Herodotus, meaning subordinate governor. Despite his cooperation with Persia, Alexander I frequently gave supplies and advice to the Greek city states, and warned them of Mardonius' plans before the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC. For example, Alexander I warned the Greeks in Tempe to leave before the arrival of Xerxes' troops, as well as notified them of an alternate route into Thessaly through upper Macedonia. After their defeat in Plataea, the Persian army under the command of Artabazus tried to retreat all the way back to Asia Minor. Most of the 43,000 survivors were attacked and killed by the forces of Alexander at the estuary of the Strymon river. Alexander eventually regained Macedonian independence after the end of the Persian Wars.
Alexander claimed descent from Argive Greeks and Heracles. After a court of Elean hellanodikai determined his claim to be true, he was permitted to participate in the Olympic Games possibly in 504 BC, an honour reserved only for Greeks. He modelled his court after Athens and was a patron of the poets Pindar and Bacchylides, both of whom dedicated poems to Alexander. The earliest reference to an Athenian proxenos, who lived during the time of the Persian wars (c. 490 BC), is that of Alexander I. Alexander I was given the title "philhellene" (Greek: "φιλέλλην", fond of the Greeks, lover of the Greeks)

This Macedonian ruler for obvious political reasons made Macedons part of the mighty Hellenic world.

Yetos
12-05-19, 15:31
Hence, you are an English from Germany because you write in English!...

They were considered as part of Hellenic world only after the Persian Hellenic war.
Alexander I of Macedon, the philhellene.

From the time of Mardonius' conquest of Macedon, Alexander I is referred to as hyparchos by Herodotus, meaning subordinate governor. Despite his cooperation with Persia, Alexander I frequently gave supplies and advice to the Greek city states, and warned them of Mardonius' plans before the Battle of Plataea in 479 BC. For example, Alexander I warned the Greeks in Tempe to leave before the arrival of Xerxes' troops, as well as notified them of an alternate route into Thessaly through upper Macedonia. After their defeat in Plataea, the Persian army under the command of Artabazus tried to retreat all the way back to Asia Minor. Most of the 43,000 survivors were attacked and killed by the forces of Alexander at the estuary of the Strymon river. Alexander eventually regained Macedonian independence after the end of the Persian Wars.
Alexander claimed descent from Argive Greeks and Heracles. After a court of Elean hellanodikai determined his claim to be true, he was permitted to participate in the Olympic Games possibly in 504 BC, an honour reserved only for Greeks. He modelled his court after Athens and was a patron of the poets Pindar and Bacchylides, both of whom dedicated poems to Alexander. The earliest reference to an Athenian proxenos, who lived during the time of the Persian wars (c. 490 BC), is that of Alexander I. Alexander I was given the title "philhellene" (Greek: "φιλέλλην", fond of the Greeks, lover of the Greeks)

This Macedonian ruler for obvious political reasons made Macedons part of the mighty Hellenic world.

By whom they were considered such?

Strabo is Clear,
Many ancient are clear,
and The Persians distinguish them from Asian Greeks, from Greeks, from Sparta, But consider them as Hellenes,
Yauna Takabara,

So why Persian consider them Greeks?

Piro Ilir
12-05-19, 15:47
How typical of you

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Interesting the observation of yours,
But as always just the serpent spreads poison, Waiting for its ihead to be smashed,
Again scratching the sheperd's bat.


For Blevis13 the one who told us that Mycenean spoke Uralic and were hg Ydna N

How Others call the Makedonians
The era of Makedonian Kingdom before Alexandros
All minor Asia and Thrace were under Persian occupation,
Naqsh e Rostam Royal tombs of Achamenides
The Satrapies of Dareios



baga \ vazraka \ Auramazdâ \ hya \ im
âm \ bumâm \ adâ \ hya \ avam \ asm
ânam \ adâ \ hya \ martiyam \ adâ \ h
ya \ šiyâtim \ adâ \ martiyahyâ
\ hya \ Dârayavaum \ xšâyathiyam \ ak
unauš \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ xšâyath
iyam \ aivam \ parûvnâm \ framâtâ
ram \ adam \ Dârayavauš \ xšâyathiya \ va
zraka \ xšâyathiya \ xšâyathiyânâm
\ xšâyathiya \ dahyûnâm \ vispazanâ
nâm \ xšâyathiya \ ahyâyâ \ bûmi
yâ \ vazrakâyâ \ dûraiapiy \ Vištâs
pahyâ \ puça \ Haxâmanišiya \ Pârsa \ P
ârsahyâ \ puça \ Ariya \ Ariya \ ci
ça \ thâtiy \ Dârayavauš \ xšâya
thiya \ vašnâ \ Auramazdâhâ \ imâ \
dahyâva \ tyâ \ adam \ agarbâyam \
apataram \ hacâ \ Pârsâ \ adamšâm \
patiyaxšayaiy \ manâ \ bâjim \ abara
ha \ tvašâm \ hacâma \ athahya \ ava \ a
kunava \ dâtam \ tya \ manâ \ avadiš \
adâraiya \ Mâda \ Ûvja \ Parthava \ Harai
va \ Bâxtriš \ Suguda \ Uvârazm
iš \ Zraka \ Harauvatiš \ Thataguš \ Ga
dâra \ Hiduš \ Sakâ \ haumavargâ \ Sa
kâ \ tigraxaudâ \ Bâbiruš \ A
thurâ \ Arabâya \ Mudrâya \ Armina
\ Katpatuka \ Sparda \ Yauna \ Sakâ \ tyaiy \ pa
radraya \Skudra \ Yaunâ \ takabarâ \ Putây
â \ Kûšiyâ \ Maciyâ \ Karkâ \ thâtiy \ D


YAUNA in Greeks is Iones Ιωνες

Most of Anatolian, Arab, and generally East of Greeks, call the Greeks Yauna, Yunan, Yauva
Most West of Greece call the Greeks as Greeks,

So at Dareios Tomb are written the Satrapies he ruled,
We see 2 times the word Yauna,
1 as Yauna alone = The Ionia, The Anatolian Greek, The Greeks of minor Asia
2 as Yauna Takabara = Makedonia, The Greeks with flat hat, (shield hat) due to καυσια.

Same we found at Sussa Behistan Persepolis etc


So Blevins13,
You not of Mycenan ancestry, (neither do I),
Myceneans were not hg Ydna N, and did not spoke Uralic
and in Anatolia and generally East where you see Yauna Yavan Yunan means Greek,


THE GREEKS by their modern Persians

Yauna = Ionia (minor Asian Greeks)
Yauna Takabara (Makedonians)
Yauna Drayahya (Central Greeks)
Yauna Paradraya (N Aegean islands and Thrace, not the Thracians, Skudra)
Sparda (Sparta)


hmm
NOW I MUST THANK YOU BLEVINS13,
For giving me this fantastic IDEA, to mention, notice and post,
how the moderns of Makedonian Kingdom, Persians use to call them.


btw
I should be a healer, specialized in hazardous reptile poisons.









Bye bye Blevins13
These are not Anatolian Greeks, its Obvious what they believe.
https://sanshmerafilonoi.gr/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/6-e1bcb0cebfcf85cebdceafcebfcf85-1906-cf83cf84e1bdb6cf82-cf86cf85cebbceb1cebae1bdb2cf82-cf84cebfe1bfa6-cebccebfcebdceb1cf83cf84ceb7cf812.jpg


Yauna takabata, means , Greeks with hats like shields. Illyrians looked as mushrooms due to their hats. Just to mention

Piro Ilir
12-05-19, 15:58
You're conflating two issues. The question whether Macedonians were Hellenes and the question whether they were Greeks in the scientific sense. The Mycenaeans weren't Hellenes but they were Greek.

Hellenes, is endonym
Greeks, is exonym

RagnarofMacedon
13-05-19, 05:09
Doesn't the name from Macedonian Argead Dynasty Alexander I Philhellene clear some things ?
"In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." or simply Friend of Greeks...

Yetos
13-05-19, 06:55
Doesn't the name from Macedonian Argead Dynasty Alexander I Philhellene clear some things ?
"In antiquity, the term 'philhellene' (Greek: φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "dear one, friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek"[1]) was used to describe non-Greeks who were fond of Greek culture." or simply Friend of Greeks...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon

Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them,
worked as anbassador for Xerxes
But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
PhilHellen also means patriot, and is a title given by Atheneans.
his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.

Notice when you speak about Ancient Greeks, the status can not be compared as today modern states,
Each city was a state of its own, When Romans came, Greek states divided, some allied Rome, etc etc.

LABERIA
13-05-19, 06:59
Barbarian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian)
The Oxford English Dictionary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_English_Dictionary) defines five meanings of the noun barbarian, including an obsolete Barbary (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbary) usage.
2. Hist. a. One not a Greek.

LABERIA
13-05-19, 07:04
: "...he(Philip II) is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."

Demosthenes- Third Philippic 31

Yetos
13-05-19, 07:09
Hahaha

Laberia strikes again

Barbaros, a greek word identified even in Linear B

means the ones who when speaks make noise,
notice the dog barks

Linear b pa-pa-ro
modern Greek pa-pa-ries paparas

you are funny

Yetos
13-05-19, 07:11
: "...he(Philip II) is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."

Demosthenes- Third Philippic 31


I will stay at the one bold,
he is not a Greek,
BUT he is not a Barbarian also

Hahaha

good morning,
you make my day,

Milan.M
13-05-19, 20:01
They could well be Phrygian people if foreign not Greek,there is similar tribe of Mygdones with little difference than Makedones.Either Phrygian or Thracian in origin.

In myth on the slope of mount Bermion the Phrygian king Midas garden was located,that is where Macedonian royalty will emerge,in history the region was known as Emathia,Thrace and Paeonian even in times of Xerxes when he marched trough Chalcidice to Therma.

Myths;
Mygdon of Phrygia ally of king Priam
Mygdon son of Ares eponym of Mygdones and so on.

It seems that Macedonians if Greeks were much later immigrants into the land.

The history of Macedonia may be said to begin with Amyntas' reign 540 – 498 BC . He was the first of its rulers to have diplomatic relations with other states.
The rest of the kings seem mythical about the Argead dynasty.If we are to believe this story we should accept the Argeads as later immigrants in the land.

If it was from Peloponese Argos or Argos Orestikon in upper Macedonia? Seems that in the myth they are connected to Argos in Peloponese,made up or not that is how they claimed Greek ancestry.

Johane Derite
13-05-19, 20:23
Calling Macedonian "Para-Greek" is like a french nationalist calling Italian "Para-French" and Latin "Proto-French".

Here is something from a linguist friend of mine:

For example, Thracians had the name "Diazenis", their version of the Greek "Diogenes", and we know this wasn't a loan word from Greek, but rather an inherited word from the common paleo-balkan language.

So the reconstruction of this name would be *diwo-g'enh1ēs.

*w disappears intervocally in Thracian as in Greek and Albanian;
*o becomes a in Thracian as in Albanian;
*g' becomes z in Thracian as in Albanian (this is compatible with Albanian d, which could continue *dz < *g')
Problematic is i from *ē, as we know that in Albanian *ē > *ā > o. So albanian differs from Thracian here.

On the basis of this name we could say that a hypothetical Thracian-Albanian subgroup split from the paleo-balkan group as PIE *ē was still *ē.

This could be comparable with the situation in the Germanic languages (*ē > Gothic e > Late-Got. i, *ē > North-, Westgermanic *ā).

*diwo-g'enh1ēs would develop to Proto-Albanian *di(w)a-dźenēs > *djađnāh > *za(đ)no > *zənə > Alb. Tosk *zer / Gheg *zn.


The matter of the fact is that Thracian is a paleo-balkan language like Greek and Albanian meaning they both come from the same root (this is most likely theory atm). It is incorrect to call a proto langauge common to all these Proto-Greek or Proto-Albanian. If Macedonian is also part of a subgroup that split early off of the common paleo-balkan one, it is incorrect from a scientific perspective to call it a greek dialect, or para-greek.

That the macedonians became hellenized is not being contested. There were Albanian prime ministers that served the ottoman empire, it doesn't make them ethnically turkish though.

markod
13-05-19, 21:17
Calling Macedonian "Para-Greek" is like a french nationalist calling Italian "Para-French" and Latin "Proto-French".

Here is something from a linguist friend of mine:

For example, Thracians had the name "Diazenis", their version of the Greek "Diogenes", and we know this wasn't a loan word from Greek, but rather an inherited word from the common paleo-balkan language.

So the reconstruction of this name would be *diwo-g'enh1ēs.

*w disappears intervocally in Thracian as in Greek and Albanian;
*o becomes a in Thracian as in Albanian;
*g' becomes z in Thracian as in Albanian (this is compatible with Albanian d, which could continue *dz < *g')
Problematic is i from *ē, as we know that in Albanian *ē > *ā > o. So albanian differs from Thracian here.

On the basis of this name we could say that a hypothetical Thracian-Albanian subgroup split from the paleo-balkan group as PIE *ē was still *ē.

This could be comparable with the situation in the Germanic languages (*ē > Gothic e > Late-Got. i, *ē > North-, Westgermanic *ā).

*diwo-g'enh1ēs would develop to Proto-Albanian *di(w)a-dźenēs > *djađ�nāh > *za(đ)�no > *zə�nə > Alb. Tosk *zer� / Gheg *z�n�.


The matter of the fact is that Thracian is a paleo-balkan language like Greek and Albanian meaning they both come from the same root (this is most likely theory atm). It is incorrect to call a proto langauge common to all these Proto-Greek or Proto-Albanian. If Macedonian is also part of a subgroup that split early off of the common paleo-balkan one, it is incorrect from a scientific perspective to call it a greek dialect, or para-greek.

That the macedonians became hellenized is not being contested. There were Albanian prime ministers that served the ottoman empire, it doesn't make them ethnically turkish though.

There is but a small likelihood that Macedonian was Para-Greek - it was most likely just Greek, hence Attic speakers could somewhat understand them. It's most parsimonious to assume they just spoke the divergent Doric of the Pella curse tablet.

This is completely unrelated to the question of their Hellenic identity. The Mycenaeans were ethnic Greeks who spoke Greek, but they weren't Hellenes and would have had extreme difficulties communicating with them.

You can substitute 'Greek' for 'X' if that offends you less. All linguists call it Greek though.

Johane Derite
13-05-19, 21:58
There is but a small likelihood that Macedonian was Para-Greek - it was most likely just Greek, hence Attic speakers could somewhat understand them. It's most parsimonious to assume they just spoke the divergent Doric of the Pella curse tablet.

This is completely unrelated to the question of their Hellenic identity. The Mycenaeans were ethnic Greeks who spoke Greek, but they weren't Hellenes and would have had extreme difficulties communicating with them.

You can substitute 'Greek' for 'X' if that offends you less. All linguists call it Greek though.

According to R.A. Crossland, the phonological features that Macedonian has would have required it to split off from the paleo-balkan branch before Mycenean even existed. That is far too distant to be called para-greek.

Likewise, the archeological reality of Macedonia is that there is no real mycenean presence, and the grave culture is illyrian and phrygian.

And the Curtius Rufus quote have a different opinion to you on. If it was just a dialect, there would be no mention of "learning" it.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1ZBnQcWoAAIm-I.jpg:large

markod
13-05-19, 22:05
According to R.A. Crossland, the phonological features that Macedonian has would have required it to split off from the paleo-balkan branch before Mycenean even existed. That is far too distant to be called para-greek.

Likewise, the archeological reality of Macedonia is that there is no real mycenean presence, and the grave culture is illyrian and phrygian.

And the Curtius Rufus quote have a different opinion to you on. If it was just a dialect, there would be no mention of "learning" it.


That guy published before the tablets were even found...

Johane Derite
13-05-19, 22:12
That guy published before the tablets were even found...

The curse tablets prove nothing but that there were west greek speakers in the vicinity, and he explicitly mentions the Doric and Thessalian relations with Macedonians, so again, not convincing.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1Y1YDuWwAEYT3D.jpg
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2L5f6BX0AIyIG6.jpg:large

markod
13-05-19, 22:17
The curse tablets prove nothing but that there were west greek speakers in the vicinity, and he explicitly mentions the Doric and Thessalian relations with Macedonians, so again, not convincing.




In the vicinity? Pella was the capital of Macedon.

Not one modern scholar is cited in those books.

Johane Derite
13-05-19, 22:20
Hesiod marks Pieria as the homeland of Macedonians. And the archaeological record shows until 650BC only Phrygian and Illyrian culture. That is from Oxford, 2014

markod
13-05-19, 22:27
Hesiod marks Pieria as the homeland of Macedonians. And the archaeological record shows until 650BC only Phrygian and Illyrian culture. That is from Oxford, 2014

Who says the Macedonians were there at that time?

Yetos
14-05-19, 00:55
Hesiod marks Pieria as the homeland of Macedonians. And the archaeological record shows until 650BC only Phrygian and Illyrian culture. That is from Oxford, 2014

What?

I suggest look and search again Pieria,

why Pieria is in Argeiad Makedonia and Pierian gulf is in East Makedonia
What was Herakleia city?
Perdikas 1rst sent them to Paggaion
Perdikas is about 650 BC

Pieria of that Era had 3 parts,
East of Olympus, where we see Thracian orpheus Leivethra,
Makedonian Herakleia
Makedonian Πιμπλεια
Mycenean settlements

West of Olympus the Area of Selloi meaning Hellanes
and the Thettalian Olossoi

the south part of Pieria mt and the valley,
where Balla and Pydna cities where, both Makedonian
Interesting City is the Phylakes,

Above Pieria is the Ematheia. the land of kings, the Aigaes.

West of Pieria mt is the Ελυμεια and the Aiane,
42% of ancient Makedonian written are from there.
Elymeia is the Upper Makedonia,
an indipented Makedonian kingdom which needed to reach 3 centuries after karanos to enter under Argeiads.

In Upper Makedonia we have the third Linear writting simmilar to Linear A and Linear B.

Upper Makedonia was the area from Ohrida to Pindus, including parts of today call Epirus, or Epirus Nova,
In Upper Makedonia except Makedonians also existed Thracian tribes, which either assimilated until Makedonia of Phillip, or devastate North and East
Uper Makedonia is the core of proto-Greek speaking.

The early Makedonians are not the Makedonian kingdom, as in seen after Phillip 2nd,
rather a population that spoke primitive Greek, and dwell with other Thracian tribes, or Vucedol/Vatin tribes.


@ DERITE
PLS DO US ALL A FAVOR,
instead of posting us theories of before the late archaiological founds,I suggest find and post us something indeed old
For a lover of anticerie and antica books like you,
I suggest find Hesychious Lexicon, which is far older, and I am sure you will love it.
and post us the real Makedonian language as written down by Hesychios.
and then compare it with the manuscripts that we have from Makedonia.

Until then Bye Bye.

Yetos
14-05-19, 02:01
According to R.A. Crossland, the phonological features that Macedonian has would have required it to split off from the paleo-balkan branch before Mycenean even existed. That is far too distant to be called para-greek.

Likewise, the archeological reality of Macedonia is that there is no real mycenean presence, and the grave culture is illyrian and phrygian.

And the Curtius Rufus quote have a different opinion to you on. If it was just a dialect, there would be no mention of "learning" it.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D1ZBnQcWoAAIm-I.jpg:large


@ DERITE
PLS DO US ALL A FAVOR,
instead of posting us theories of before the late archaiological founds,I suggest find and post us something indeed old
For a lover of anticerie and antica books like you,
I suggest find Hesychious Lexicon, which is far older antica, and I am sure you will love it.
and post us the real Makedonian language as written down by Hesychios.
and then compare it with the manuscripts that we have from Makedonia.

Until then Bye Bye.


as for the written at last phases of Alexander's campaign.
you will understand when you find Hesychios Lexicon,
First Find and learn Makedonian language,
as written down in Lexicons and manuscripts,
and post us these books,

man I maybe know 10% of their Vocabulary
and you probably know less than 1%
and some of these scholars maybe never hear Makedonian Dialect.
or even see it written down.

Bye bye again

Piro Ilir
14-05-19, 12:59
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon

Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them,
worked as anbassador for Xerxes
But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
PhilHellen also means patriot, and is a title given by Atheneans.
his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.

Notice when you speak about Ancient Greeks, the status can not be compared as today modern states,
Each city was a state of its own, When Romans came, Greek states divided, some allied Rome, etc etc.

The myth about Argead dynasty was only written and drawn during the reign of Alexander I of Macedon, soon after the Persian-Hellenic wars. Only afterwards we have the Argead dynasty allowed to participate in Olympic games. Their Greek heritage was testified by Herodotus himself.
In simple words, only after the vital service given to Greeks by Alexander I the philhellene, his dynasty was accepted as Hellenic.

Piro Ilir
14-05-19, 13:05
I will stay at the one bold,
he is not a Greek,
BUT he is not a Barbarian also

Hahaha

good morning,
you make my day,

Actually, it means typically, Illyrian. Among barbarians, the Illyrians were the most savages ones.
Not all barbarians were not illiterate and uncivilized. Otherwise, Illyrians were totally uncivilized, illiterate, and super barbarian

Piro Ilir
14-05-19, 13:17
They could well be Phrygian people if foreign not Greek,there is similar tribe of Mygdones with little difference than Makedones.Either Phrygian or Thracian in origin.

In myth on the slope of mount Bermion the Phrygian king Midas garden was located,that is where Macedonian royalty will emerge,in history the region was known as Emathia,Thrace and Paeonian even in times of Xerxes when he marched trough Chalcidice to Therma.

Myths;
Mygdon of Phrygia ally of king Priam
Mygdon son of Ares eponym of Mygdones and so on.

It seems that Macedonians if Greeks were much later immigrants into the land.

The history of Macedonia may be said to begin with Amyntas' reign 540 – 498 BC . He was the first of its rulers to have diplomatic relations with other states.
The rest of the kings seem mythical about the Argead dynasty.If we are to believe this story we should accept the Argeads as later immigrants in the land.

If it was from Peloponese Argos or Argos Orestikon in upper Macedonia? Seems that in the myth they are connected to Argos in Peloponese,made up or not that is how they claimed Greek ancestry.

In the time of when the myth was invented, Macedons were an unimportant tribe vassal of Persia. Their Royal house invented this myth for political reasons. The same did the Dorians when they settled in Peloponnese. Attica, Beotia, and Peloponnese were the cradle of civilization.

Ancient Illyrians and Greeks were the opposite of the ancient world. Illyrians the most back warded , and the Greeks the most civilised. What you're excepting from Macedonian Royal house to do? Claiming descent from Illyrians, whom had no written records and whether not any historicity on their origins!!! Or they should claim to be part of the mighty Hellenisms!!!

Piro Ilir
14-05-19, 13:46
Who says the Macedonians were there at that time?

Their founding myth of their Royal dynasty. According to them, their dynasty was founded circa eighth century bce

RagnarofMacedon
14-05-19, 18:43
Man is clear what that means , you can tell me now like 20 more meanings , but there is Hellene and Philhellene , One is Greek with Greek Culture and language second is Non-greek who accepted Greek culture and language...So simple, but no you will go further and thats mean patriot...If in that time that kind of word existed, anyways patriot for which Country ?When first country in europe is Macedonia all rest were greek city-states also occupied by Macedonians ?1.
PATRIOT a person who vigorously supports their country and is prepared to defend it against enemies or detractors.

We all know that 50,000 Greeks fight with Persians against Macedonians and Alexander , for which part of land for what country ?I dont get it patriot if they were opposites , if they killed each other... ?Alexander and Macedonians killed so much Greeks thats nowdays is funny for Greeks to celebrate Macedonians and Alexander, That like jews to celebrate Hitler and set statue of him in Tel-Aviv...

Dianatomia
14-05-19, 19:13
Man is clear what that means , you can tell me now like 20 more meanings , but there is Hellene and Philhellene , One is Greek with Greek Culture and language second is Non-greek who accepted Greek culture and language...



A philhellene is not someone who accepted the Greek culture and language. It is someone who loves the Greeks or the Greek cause. It could be non-Greek, like lord Byron in modern times, but in Ancient times the term meant patriot. Someone who put the Greek ethnos above his state. Both Greeks and non-Greeks were described as Philhellenes.

Dianatomia
14-05-19, 19:17
In the time of when the myth was invented, Macedons were an unimportant tribe vassal of Persia. Their Royal house invented this myth for political reasons. The same did the Dorians when they settled in Peloponnese. Attica, Beotia, and Peloponnese were the cradle of civilization.

Ancient Illyrians and Greeks were the opposite of the ancient world. Illyrians the most back warded , and the Greeks the most civilised. What you're excepting from Macedonian Royal house to do? Claiming descent from Illyrians, whom had no written records and whether not any historicity on their origins!!! Or they should claim to be part of the mighty Hellenisms!!!

This is speculation absent evidence.
Also not quite realistic that the Ancient Macedonians, the people who conquered the known world were ashamed of their origins. And they left no sign of their Illyrian ancestry. Also, their material culture resembled Homeric Greeks and unlike Ancient Macedonian, we can clearly distinguish Illyrian from Greek.

RagnarofMacedon
14-05-19, 19:17
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon

Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them,
worked as anbassador for Xerxes
But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
PhilHellen also means patriot, and is a title given by Atheneans.
his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.

Notice when you speak about Ancient Greeks, the status can not be compared as today modern states,
Each city was a state of its own, When Romans came, Greek states divided, some allied Rome, etc etc.

So terminology is clear , you can create whatever you want , anyways , in all history events Macedonians and Grecians were considered like different ethnicities , so from Ancient Historians...

110331103411035
Like here Book by Charles Rollin - a French Historian born in 1661. 11036
11037

RagnarofMacedon
14-05-19, 19:26
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon

Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them,
worked as anbassador for Xerxes
But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
PhilHellen also means patriot, and is a title given by Atheneans.
his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.

Notice when you speak about Ancient Greeks, the status can not be compared as today modern states,
Each city was a state of its own, When Romans came, Greek states divided, some allied Rome, etc etc.


Like every important Historian's statement is different than Greeks...
Like Lecture by Prof.Kenneth W.Harl "The World of Early Macedon" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs
Like Eugene Borza 11038
Arthur de Cobineau 11039
Even your Metropolite of Florina Augustinos Kandiotis 11040
British Historian Marko Attila Hoare 11041

RagnarofMacedon
14-05-19, 19:35
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_I_of_Macedon

Notice that Alexander 1rst killed Megabazos ambassadors,
Gave his sister wife to Persians, to eumenize them,
worked as anbassador for Xerxes
But betray Persians and gives information about Mardonios,
Alexandros 1rst makes all the 'dirty work', Leonidas and Themistokles get the glory.
PhilHellen also means patriot, and is a title given by Atheneans.
his story is a stressed life of coalition or hostility with Persians.

Notice when you speak about Ancient Greeks, the status can not be compared as today modern states,
Each city was a state of its own, When Romans came, Greek states divided, some allied Rome, etc etc.

Look on this statement , also very logical thing , Slavs also arrived on Territory of Greece, Thessaly , Aegea Macedonia, Central Greece , Peleponnesoss and many other islands...

"There are some differences between all countries, but in general the Slavs also made their way to Greece. We do not draw up statistics any more, but the last data i remember showed that the amount of Slavs in Macedonia is only a little bit higher than in Greece.

Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
[email protected]
www.igenea.com (https://www.igenea.com/)

So yes logic , if Macedonians are Slavs,a would say same for Greeks... Except "PONTIC" Greeks who are Turks...Anyway there is Epirus Greek,Macedonia Greek, Thessaly Greek, Crete Greek ,Pontic Greek , thats all mean not real Greeks....
Cheers.

markod
14-05-19, 19:39
Their founding myth of their Royal dynasty. According to them, their dynasty was founded circa eighth century bce

They were little more than Doric herdsmen until Philipp II. . Tribes have dynasties too.

RagnarofMacedon
15-05-19, 02:33
A philhellene is not someone who accepted the Greek culture and language. It is someone who loves the Greeks or the Greek cause. It could be non-Greek, like lord Byron in modern times, but in Ancient times the term meant patriot. Someone who put the Greek ethnos above his state. Both Greeks and non-Greeks were described as Philhellenes.

Of course that mean patriot , φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek , FRIEND OF GREEKS OR GREEK-FRIEND.

Also what you thing about Lecture The World of Early Macedon ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=1s
Or you can skip on 08:35 ?
Or just watch it all...
And stop with your delusions already ,very good Profesors and Historians says opposite than your delusions , there is so much manipulating and inaccurate history set by Westerns... Also

The first ,,greek" President was Albanian and the first ,,greek" king was German.A nation is created by western powers to act as a buffer against the Muslims,today mixture of ethnicities call themselves ,,pure Hellenes".
1104211043

Your History is Macedonian , DNA Turkish, first king Otto German,first president Albanian...

LABERIA
15-05-19, 06:55
The myth about Argead dynasty was only written and drawn during the reign of Alexander I of Macedon, soon after the Persian-Hellenic wars. Only afterwards we have the Argead dynasty allowed to participate in Olympic games. Their Greek heritage was testified by Herodotus himself.
In simple words, only after the vital service given to Greeks by Alexander I the philhellene, his dynasty was accepted as Hellenic.
And why these Macedonian barbarians were not allowed to participate in the Olympic Games before Alexander I? Obviously mine is a rhetorical question.

blevins13
15-05-19, 14:27
Of course that mean patriot , φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek , FRIEND OF GREEKS OR GREEK-FRIEND.

Also what you thing about Lecture The World of Early Macedon ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs&t=1s
Or you can skip on 08:35 ?
Or just watch it all...
And stop with your delusions already ,very good Profesors and Historians says opposite than your delusions , there is so much manipulating and inaccurate history set by Westerns... Also

The first ,,greek" President was Albanian and the first ,,greek" king was German.A nation is created by western powers to act as a buffer against the Muslims,today mixture of ethnicities call themselves ,,pure Hellenes".
1104211043

Your History is Macedonian , DNA Turkish, first king Otto German,first president Albanian...



George Konduriottea was a philhellenes, therefor a Greek......


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Yetos
15-05-19, 15:43
Look on this statement , also very logical thing , Slavs also arrived on Territory of Greece, Thessaly , Aegea Macedonia, Central Greece , Peleponnesoss and many other islands...

"There are some differences between all countries, but in general the Slavs also made their way to Greece. We do not draw up statistics any more, but the last data i remember showed that the amount of Slavs in Macedonia is only a little bit higher than in Greece.

Roman C. Scholz
iGENEA
[email protected]
www.igenea.com (https://www.igenea.com/)

So yes logic , if Macedonians are Slavs,a would say same for Greeks... Except "PONTIC" Greeks who are Turks...Anyway there is Epirus Greek,Macedonia Greek, Thessaly Greek, Crete Greek ,Pontic Greek , thats all mean not real Greeks....
Cheers.

Ragna
still not convincing,

I know the %,
and i my shelf written them down

but Makedonians are not Slavs,
a part Roman Makedonia, outside the core of Makedonia Proprie is occupied and assimilated by S Slavs,
and become a country, due to Vlachs of Krusevo, who did not want to be Bulgarians, neither Serbs,

the Idea of 'Makedonian identity mainly expressed by Aromani of Krusevo, and you know it well.
Nie bulgar, nie Serb, patrik e Makedonia Orthodox
So If S Slavs and Communist international of g Dimitrov, found wise to baptise a part of S Slavs as Makedonians, to avoid further,
this has nothing to do with truth,

To understand Makedonia proprie,
bellow is an aproach of Argeiades, and Lokroi (Uper)

that is Makedonia proprie,

http://www.thrakikh-estia.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/%CE%A7%CE%B1%CF%81%CF%84%CE%B7%CF%82-%CE%91%CF%81%CF%87%CE%B1%CE%AF%CE%B1%CF%82-%CE%9C%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B5%CE%B4%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%AF%C E%B1%CF%82.JPG

Notice Bottiaeoi are Creatns,
Mygdones is the remnant of Bryges,
The rest is expansion and assimilation, through centuries, of the tired and isolated Thracian and para Thracian tribes


Yet even in this map I have precaution,
for example the Selloi, and the Ollossoi,
that is Makedonia proprie,

Yetos
15-05-19, 15:56
George Konduriottea was a philhellenes, there for a Greek......


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

termination of philos, change though centuries,
as termination of Daemon
Just what you think when you hear the word Deamon,

besides for DEMOSTHENES and Atheneans (tittle Phillelen was given by Atheneans)
Philippos was not a Greek, but neither was Barbarian.

Yetos
16-05-19, 00:57
: "...he(Philip II) is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honour, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave."

Demosthenes- Third Philippic 31


So Laberia what is Philippos?

3rd anti-Philippic 31
εἰ δέ γε δοῦλος ἢ ὑποβολιμαῖος τὰ μὴ προσήκοντ᾽ ἀπώλλυε καὶ ἐλυμαίνετο, Ἡράκλεις ὅσῳ μᾶλλον δεινὸν καὶ ὀργῆς ἄξιον πάντες ἂν ἔφησαν εἶναι. ἀλλ᾽ οὐχ ὑπὲρ Φιλίππου καὶ ὧν ἐκεῖνος πράττει νῦν, οὐχ οὕτως ἔχουσιν, οὐ μόνον οὐχ Ἕλληνος ὄντος οὐδὲ προσήκοντος οὐδὲν τοῖς Ἕλλησιν, ἀλλ᾽ οὐδὲ βαρβάρου ἐντεῦθεν ὅθεν καλὸν εἰπεῖν, ἀλλ᾽ ὀλέθρου Μακεδόνος, ὅθεν οὐδ᾽ ἀνδράποδον σπουδαῖον οὐδὲν ἦν πρότερον πρίασθαι.

He is not a Hellenas
He is not Barbarian
THEN ?

Just like you, Using Demosthenes words
for member Laberia is not Albanian, nor related to Albanians, but not even a European from any place that be named with Honoue, but a pestilent knave from ???? , whence ......

Yetos
16-05-19, 01:16
:laughing:
Like every important Historian's statement is different than Greeks...
Like Lecture by Prof.Kenneth W.Harl "The World of Early Macedon" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lsqyzECK7xs
Like Eugene Borza 11038
Arthur de Cobineau 11039
Even your Metropolite of Florina Augustinos Kandiotis 11040
British Historian Marko Attila Hoare 11041

First understand what Kantiotis of Florina say,
He speaks about civil war after WW2
the demand of Communists to create a Communistic Makedonia,
treaty of Bled 1947,
what is today slavo-Makedonia is after the negative stance of Aromani of krusevo, and generaaly all Priliaps not enter under Serbian or Bulgarian identity,,

As for Borza or Kenneth, etc
I prefer Strabo, herodotos, EVEN THE PERSIAN, AND DEMOSTHENS the anti-Philipikos retor.

For as Demosthenes says,
Makedonians are not Hellenes
Makedonians are not barbarians

bye from a Yauna Takabara

RagnarofMacedon
18-05-19, 08:52
Slavs are indigenous in the Balkans
Author: Mario Alinei
Source: Origini delle lingue d�Europa, Vol. I: La teoria d
Here are some excerpts of Dr. Mario Alinei’s study concerning the Slavic populations in the Balkans. It is congruent with Dr.Florin Curta’s conclusions about the invention of the “arrival of the Slavs in the Balkans”.
“I have to commence by clearing away one of the most absurd consequences of the traditional chronology, namely, that of the ‘arrival’ of the Slavs into the immense area in which they now live. The only logical conclusion can be that the southern branch of the Slavs is the oldest and that from it developed the Slavic western and eastern branches in a differing manner and perhaps at different times.”
“Today only a minority of experts support the theory of a late migration for the Slavs… because none of the variant versions of such late settlement answers the question of what crucial factor could possibly have enabled the Slavs to have left their Bronze-Age firesides to become the dominant peoples of Europe. The southwestern portion of the Slavs had always bordered on the Italic people in Dalmatia, as well as in the areas of the eastern Alps and in the Po lowlands.”
“The surmised ‘Slavic migration’ is full of inconsistencies. There is no ‘northern Slavic language’, it is rather only a variant of the southern Slavic… The first metallurgic cultures in the Balkans are Slavic… and connected with Anatolia… Slavic presence in the territory, nearly identical to the one occupied by them today, exists ever since the Stone Age… The Slavs have (together with the Greeks and other Balkan peoples developed agriculture… agriculturally mixed economy, typically European, which later enabled the birth of the Greek, Etruscan, and Latin urbanism. Germanic peoples adopted agriculture from the Slavs… The Balkans is one of the rare regions in which a real and true settlement of human groups coming from Anatolia is proven…].
REFERENCES
Mario Alinei, Origini delle lingue d�Europa, Vol. I: La teoria della continuit�, Il Mulino, Bologna, 1996;
Vol. II: La continuit� delle principali aree etnolinguistiche dal Mesolitico all�et� del Ferro, Il Mulino, Bologna, 2000.
BIOGRAPHY
Mario Alinei is Professor Emeritus at the University of Utrecht, where he taught from 1959 to 1987.
Founder and editor of “Quaderni di semantica” review.
He is president of “Atlas Linguarum Europae”.

RagnarofMacedon
18-05-19, 09:05
:laughing:

First understand what Kantiotis of Florina say,
He speaks about civil war after WW2
the demand of Communists to create a Communistic Makedonia,
treaty of Bled 1947,
what is today slavo-Makedonia is after the negative stance of Aromani of krusevo, and generaaly all Priliaps not enter under Serbian or Bulgarian identity,,

As for Borza or Kenneth, etc
I prefer Strabo, herodotos, EVEN THE PERSIAN, AND DEMOSTHENS the anti-Philipikos retor.

For as Demosthenes says,
Makedonians are not Hellenes
Makedonians are not barbarians

bye from a Yauna Takabara


Isocrates – Letter to Phillip II of Macedon, 4th Century BC! (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/2009/07/17/isocrates-letter-to-phillip-ii-of-macedon-4th-century-bc/)t (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/category/macedonia-ancient/)
Isocrates was an Attic orator who lived during the 4th century BC, and was a contemporary of Phillip II of Macedon and Demosthenes, another Attic orator. Demosthenes was vehemently opposed to Phillip and Macedonia, as he saw the true intention of the Macedonians and their desire to subjugate the Hellenic city-states and their people. Isocrates, on the other hand, unwittingly thought it more beneficial to the Hellenes if Phillip could be persuaded to treat them as friends. As a result of Macedonian royalty claiming descent from a god (Heracles, no less), a fiction that originates from Herodotus’ story about Alexander ‘Philhellene’ and the Olympic games, Isocrates appealed to the supposed ‘Hellenic’ descent of Phillip, stroking the Macedonian’s ego, who was being likened to a god by this opportunistic old fool.
Here is an example of Isocrates’ false hopes, naivety and flattery:
Quote:


…..you and you alone had been granted by fortune free scope both to send ambassadors to whom ever you desire and to receive them from whom ever you please, and to say whatever you think expedient; and that, besides, you, beyond any of the Hellenes, were possessed of both wealth and power…..(15-6)



In the same paragraph, Isocrates goes on to say that persuasion will be helpful in dealing with the Hellenes, clearly hoping to appeal to Phillip’s ‘better’ side, in the hope that the Hellenes will be treated mercifully. Despite the fact that Philip had no genuine interest in ‘Panhellenism’, Isocrates foolishly believed that, were he to draw some apparent ‘ancestral’ links wrapped up in a flattering mythology between the founder of his race (Heracles) and the people (Hellenes) he was preparing to attack, Phillip would listen to reason. The following text being a perfect example:
Quote:


I affirm that, without neglecting any of your own interests, you ought to make an effort to reconcile Argos and Lacedaemon and Thebes and Athens; for if you can bring these cities together, you will not find it hard to unite the others as well………..Argos is the land of your fathers, and is entitled to as much consideration at your hands as are your own ancestors; the Thebans honour the founder of your race, both by processionals and by sacrifices, beyond all the other gods; the Lacedaemonians have conferred upon his descendants the kingship and the power of command for all time……….Athens single-handedsustained the greatest dangers against the power of Eurystheus, put an end to his insolence, and freed Heracles’ sons from the fears by which they were continually beset. Because of these services we deserve the gratitude, not only of those who then were preserved from destruction, but also of those who are now living………(30-5)



Quote:


…among all the Hellenes you shall stand forth as a statesman who has worked for the good of Hellas. (140)



Unfortunately, Isocrates doesn’t seem to realise that he is giving Phillip all the more confidence to subjugate the Hellenes, and an idea of what is required to meet that objective.
Quote:


I think that she will join forces with you in carrying out your policy, especially if she can be made to see that your object is to prepare for the campaign against the barbarians.(56)



Phillip and his son Alexander would often pull out the ‘revenge at Persia’ card when it suited them, as they did with their mythological ‘ancestry’, but few Hellenes of their day were naive enough to believe the Macedonian kings.
Quote:


if you fall short of your expectations you will at any rate win the good will of all the Hellenes–which is a better thing to gain than to take by force many Hellenic cities; for achievements of the latter kind entail envy and hostility and much opprobrium, but that which I have urged entails none of these things……. (67-8)



Phillip, Alexander and subsequent Macedonian kings did the exact opposite of what Isocrates was begging for, as is clearly evidenced throughout ancient history. And the flattery continued:
Quote:


…..Men of the highest renown will come as ambassadors from the greatest states to your court; you will advise with them about the general welfare, for which no other man will be found to have shown a like concern; you will see all Hellas on tiptoe with interest in whatever you happen to propose; and no one will be indifferent to the measures which are being decided in your councils….(69-70)



How utterly sweet, all Hellas will be on tiptoe for what Isocrates fancifully describes as a lover of Hellas and one of the blood of Hellas. As it turned out, the Hellenes were on tiptoe while fleeing from imminent death at the hands of the Macedonian soldiers of Phillip, as was the case during the historic Macedonian victory over the Hellenes at Chaeronea and the subsequent subjugation of the Hellenic city-states.


Quote:


…….it is your privilege, as one who has been blessed with untrammelled freedom, to consider all Hellas your fatherland, as did the founder of your race……..it will be found that I turned to Athens first of all and endeavoured to win her over to this cause with all the earnestness of which my nature is capable, but when I perceived that she cared less for what I said than for the ravings of the platform orators, I gave her up, although I did not abandon my efforts. (127-9)



Of course Phillip was blessed with untrammelled freedom, he was the king of Macedonia, the most powerful state in Europe at the time. And the underlined text highlights Isocrates’ motive for turning to Phillip – His own countrymen did not want to listen to him or his advice, which proved to be entirely inaccurate in any case. Demosthenes was not alone, and his words are reflective of the thoughts of the overwhelming mass of Hellenes during the reign of the Macedonians. Few actually bought the story that the Macedonian kings were ‘Hellenes’, as Demosthenes indicated in his verbal attack against Phillip:


Isocrates speaks against the majority Hellenes represented by Demosthenes, calling their very real concerns about Phillip’s true (and ultimate) intentions mere rubbish, as indicated in the following text:
Quote:


I observe that you are being painted in false colours by men who are jealous of you……..they keep talking about your power, representing that it is being built up, not in behalf of Hellas, but against her, that you have for a long time been plotting against us all………By speaking this rubbish……..(73-76)



Phillip was plotting against the Hellenes and he did succeed in subjugating them.
Isocrates’ views of Macedonia and the Macedonian people are markedly different from that of the Macedonian kings.
Quote:


More than that, he has about him the ablest men in Macedonia, who, however inexperienced they may be in other matters, are likely to know better than you do what is expedient for him. Furthermore, you will find that there are many Hellenes living in his country, who are not unknown to fame or lacking in intelligence, but men by sharing whose counsel he has not diminished his kingdom but has, on the contrary, accomplished deeds which match his dreams. (19)



A clear distinction is made between the (ablest) men in Macedonia on the one hand, and the Hellenes living in Phillip’s country (as colonists) on the other.
Quote:


And mark that I am summoning you to an undertaking in which you will make expeditions, not with the barbarians against men who have given you no just cause, but with the Hellenes against those upon whom it is fitting that the descendants of Heracles should wage war. (115)



The above is clearly in reference to Phillip and his barbarians (Macedonians) making expeditions against the Hellenes.
Quote:


………………….And the founder of your empire……held entirely aloof from Hellenic territory, and set his heart upon occupying the throne of Macedon…….he alone among the Hellenes did not claim the right to rule over a people of kindred race, he alone was able to escape the perils incident to one-man power. (106-8)



Macedonia was entirely aloof from Hellenic territory. That cannot be disputed. Below is another clear distinction between Macedonians and Hellenes.
Quote:


It remains, then, to summarize what I have said in this discourse, in order that you may see in the smallest compass the substance of my counsels. I assert that it is incumbent upon you to work for the good of the Hellenes, to reign as king over the Macedonians, and to extend your power over the greatest possible number of the barbarians. For if you do these things, all men will be grateful to you: the Hellenes for your kindness to them; the Macedonians if you reign over them, not like a tyrant, but like a king; and the rest of the nations, if by your hands they are delivered from barbaric despotism and are brought under the protection of Hellas. (154)



In addition to Herodotus’ story, Isocrates had also allowed for the ‘Hellenic’ appellation to be attached to the Macedonian kings through other means, which could basically apply to any person of the time that had acquired an Attic education and/or had an appreciation for certain cultural characteristics of the Hellenes. Indeed, the Hellenes were no longer even a race, as stated in his Panegyricus:
Quote:


And so far has our city distanced the rest of mankind in thought and in speech that her pupils have become the teachers of the rest of the world; and she has brought it about that the name Hellenes suggests no longer a race but an intelligence, and that the title Hellenes is applied rather to those who share our culture than to those who share a common blood. (50)



The basis for Phillip’s false ‘Hellenic’ origins (as proposed by Isocrates) are exposed in several ways, and do not go unnoticed by later scholars that have studied his works. Those that have assessed Isocrates’ works agree that it is little more than flattery and false hope. Peter Green states the following:
Quote:


“taken as a whole the Address to Philip must have caused its recipient considerable sardonic amusement……..Its ethnic conceit was only equalled by its naivety……….though Philip did not give a fig for Panhellenism as an idea, he at once saw how it could be turned into highly effective camouflage (a notion which his son subsequently took over ready-made). Isocrates had, unwittingly, supplied him with the propaganda-line he needed. From now on he merely had to clothe his Macedonian ambitions in a suitable Panhellenic dress.”



Pierre Jouguet states the following:
Quote:


“So little do the Macedonians seem to have belonged to the Hellenic community at the beginning, that they did not take part in the great Games of Greece, and when the Kings of Macedon were admitted to them, it was not as Macedonians, but as Heraclids. Isocrates, in the ‘Philip’ praises them for not having imposed their kingship on the Hellenes, to whom the kingship is always oppressive, and for having gone among foreigners to establish it. He, therefore, did not regard the Macedonians as Greeks.”



Ulrich Wilcken wrote:
Quote:


“When Philip read the book, the insistence of his descent from Heracles must have been welcome to him; for in his policy he had to stress this mythical derivation, as the types of Heracles on his coins show. But on the other hand he must have smiled at the naiveté shown by Isocrates”



In conclusion, it is critical to cite the words of Pausanias:
Quote:



On a pillar is a statue of Isocrates, whose memory is remarkable for three things: his diligence in continuing to teach to the end of his ninety-eight years, his self-restraint in keeping aloof from politics and from interfering with public affairs, and his love of liberty in dying a voluntary death, distressed at the news of the battle at Chaeronea (1.18.8).



Everything that Isocrates thought Phillip was turned out to be false, and everything he dreaded came true. He died as a result of Phillip going against his wishes and destroying the liberty of the Hellenes. Pausanias confirms it several times:
Quote:


I have already said in my history of Attica that the defeat at Chaeronea was a disaster for all the Greeks (Hellenes)………..(9.6.5).



It is abundantly clear, the Macedonians were never Hellenes.

RagnarofMacedon
18-05-19, 09:08
11048

Hi, here is Macedonian Specialist Eugenee...

RagnarofMacedon
18-05-19, 09:28
And occupation still goes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05TyPWI6A8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9TVQpxdvS4
The following video shows Macedonians running away from Aegean Macedonia, trying to escape from the bombardment and retaliation from the government forces, after they won the civil war against the Democratic Army of Greece.
The official Greek position on this is that the communists have abducted these GREEK children and spread them through communist countries in order to brainwash them, and then return them to Greece (probably to start a communist revolution). However, the TESTIMONIES of these people, and some of them are still very much alive, say quite the opposite: that they were running away from the bombs coming from the party that won the Greek Civil War.
Today, 60 years after the exodus of the Macedonians and 20 years since the fall of the communist regimes in Europe, Greece is still “afraid” to let the refugees back home. These people, or their children, are still forbidden to enter Greece and reclaim their land, unless they declare themselves as “Greek by genus” – which is an example of the racist laws implemented in Greece, or a form of an ethnic genocide, something we often saw during the wars in some other Balkan countries.
This is what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, this is what Fascist Greece did towards the Macedonians.
Nazi Germany paid for their wrongdoings will Greece pay?


CHRIS STEFOU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrWNWVNJMOg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8oW_hcNyZc



As the Irish patriot Roger Casement (executed by the British after the 1916 uprising in Ireland) put it:
“I know of two tragic histories in the world – that of Ireland and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.”
Casement was speaking primarily of the Macedonians who then inhabited the lands that fell within the borders of the ancient Macedonian homeland.

RagnarofMacedon
18-05-19, 09:42
The newly invented Hellenes only live in Bavarian Greece, 1842! (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/2008/05/04/the-newly-invented-hellenes-only-live-in-bavarian-greece-1842/)
11049110501105111052

Yetos
18-05-19, 09:47
And occupation still goes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05TyPWI6A8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9TVQpxdvS4
The following video shows Macedonians running away from Aegean Macedonia, trying to escape from the bombardment and retaliation from the government forces, after they won the civil war against the Democratic Army of Greece.
The official Greek position on this is that the communists have abducted these GREEK children and spread them through communist countries in order to brainwash them, and then return them to Greece (probably to start a communist revolution). However, the TESTIMONIES of these people, and some of them are still very much alive, say quite the opposite: that they were running away from the bombs coming from the party that won the Greek Civil War.
Today, 60 years after the exodus of the Macedonians and 20 years since the fall of the communist regimes in Europe, Greece is still “afraid” to let the refugees back home. These people, or their children, are still forbidden to enter Greece and reclaim their land, unless they declare themselves as “Greek by genus” – which is an example of the racist laws implemented in Greece, or a form of an ethnic genocide, something we often saw during the wars in some other Balkan countries.
This is what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, this is what Fascist Greece did towards the Macedonians.
Nazi Germany paid for their wrongdoings will Greece pay?


CHRIS STEFOU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrWNWVNJMOg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8oW_hcNyZc



As the Irish patriot Roger Casement (executed by the British after the 1916 uprising in Ireland) put it:
“I know of two tragic histories in the world – that of Ireland and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.”
Casement was speaking primarily of the Macedonians who then inhabited the lands that fell within the borders of the ancient Macedonian homeland.




That is why the Communists send Greek children at Poland and at Taskende Uzbekistan?
cause they were 'Makedonians'?

come on, sending children from Makedonia at 7th block at taskend Uzbekistan was the desire of a 'Makedonian'?

Or a fully organised crime by Communists
Stalin is no different than Hitler,
and Tito in order to worship him for his great Yugoslavia, he himshelf destroy the country he made after 1974
Tito wanted people to remember him as great man, so he himshelf, created Makedonia, Kossovo, etc etc
he made Yugoslvia great, he destroy Yugoslavia.

RagnarofMacedon
18-05-19, 09:53
The charter of Alexander The Macedonian, found in the book by Orbini, 1601! (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/2008/04/14/the-charter-of-alexander-the-macedonian-found-in-the-book-by-orbini-1601/)11053
Title page of the book by Mauro Orbini from 1601.

THE CHARTER OF ALEXANDER THE MACEDONIAN

“WE, ALEXANDER, son of Phillip, King of Macedonia, Prince of the Monarchy, appointed as a creator of Greek empire, from Nataban announced as the child of the great Zeus, ruler of the Augusts, and of Bramans and of Arbonites, from sunrise to sunset, from south up until north, to the noble nation of Slavs we wish kindness, peace and health. We and our followers who will succeed us in ruling the world, because you have been consistent in faith, valiant in fights and our leaders and heroic fighters, we apportion you and freely donate you forever this whole part of the land, to North up until southern borders with Italy; and with such right, which nobody but you, must not stay long here; nor inhabit, nor live there. If, however, anyone stays longer here, may he become your slave, and his children, slaves to your children.

This Privilege is given in the new city of Alexandria, whom we created by the great Nile river, in the twelfth year of our ruling, under protection of the great god Zeus and Mars, Pluto and goddess Athens. Witnesses to this act are the noble Athleta, our treasurer, together with the other eleven princes whom we have appointed, after our death, as our general successors, considering the fact that we haven’t got any children.”
From the book “The Kingdom of the Slavs” by Mauro Orbini, published in 1601, in Pezaro.
This is Alexanders legacy to his people, the Macedonians, who became Glorious, and hence forth were also kown as the Slavjani(Slavs).


Also page 69:

In a Carigrad library, the Charter of Privileges was preserved by Alexander the Great,
in the twelfth year of his government, he divided the Illyrians, that is, the noble line of the Slavs. This becomes completely
it is understandable if we take into account that the Macedonians of Alexander the Great were actually Slavs, they spoke the same
the language spoken by the inhabitants of Macedonia today. In general, the Macedonians, Thracians and Moesi speak the same,
Slavic language. Alexander the Great is considered by many to be Greeks, but unjustified. The reason for that is misleading
is that the Greeks, fighting with the peoples of the East, were the most famous people of the then Europe, just like
today the Greeks and the Turks believe that all European Catholic nations are French. However, the Moscow Anali explicitly
confirm that the Russians, or Moskvits, were the same language as the ancient Macedonians, who, among others
countries, ruled Egypt 276 years ago.

RagnarofMacedon
18-05-19, 10:01
he town of Agria situated in Dakia was founded (according to Bonfinio in the 1st book of 1 Dec.) by these Agrians who lived (according to Stephan the Byzantine) in the areas between the mountains Emos and Rodopies, near Macedonia. Macedonia however, was continually colonized by the Slavic nation and new-comers from Tyre, even though some thought that the Macedonians belonged to the society of the Greeks. To oppose them, I bring the opinion of Stephan the Byzantine about Alexander the Macedonian, who very clearly differs the language of the Macedonians from the language of the Greeks.

From this it can be clearly seen that Macedonian speech couldn’t be understood by all participants of Alexander’s army, because a great part of it consisted of Greeks.And truly, when Alexander told to Philota, the son of Parmenion, who wanted to expound his personal matter to the crowds: “The Macedonians oh, Philota, will condemn you; therefore I ask you, will you address them on your maternal language”, and Philota refused to do so, because he would not be understood by all. Then Alexander stated that Philota hated his maternal language.

MACEDONIANS ARE NOT GREEKS

So, if Macedonians were Greeks, why would Philota refuse to speak Greek in front of the Greeks? And even more, having in mind that he did not have more appropriate language than the Greek, supposedly if Macedonians were Greeks. Because (as Plinius says it, book VII, chapter 57) the passive willingness of the people was the first reason for the usage of the Ionian literacy. So, the maternal language of the Macedonians, which differs from the one we think was the general language of the whole army of Alexander, clearly shows that the Macedonians do not belong to the Greeks; as it is known, out of the ancient unity of the language, the unity of the nationality is confirmed as well. According to it, when distinguishing the languages at Nembrot, none of the authors confirmed anything opposite; The Greeks through their language do not draw near to the Macedonians; and we have shown enough, based upon the mere difference between the languages, that the Macedonians are not Greeks; then based upon the words of Phillip of Bergamo, we must admit that the Macedonians from all times, up until nowadays have got a Slavic language. Well, what would you think about Tukidid, who by joining Byzantium and Pula, a large part of Trakia and Mezia, and the whole Iliricum, all of these countries calls Macedonia? It would be the same as if he had said: I reckon that Trakia, Mezia and Iliricum must not be separated from the Macedonians. Therefore, I don’t doubt that the Trakians, Mezians and Ilircs are bound together with Macedonians. A witness to that is the title of Alexander the Macedonian presenting him as the King of the Macedonians and Greeks. Much stronger witnesses are the basic differences in the customs and lifestyle between the Macedonians and Greeks allowing me to be easily convinced that there are different traditions and customs even among people of the same kindred. That is why, according to the telling of K. Kurtius, when Diosip of Athens had to fight chest to chest against Horata the Macedonian, there were some Greeks among Alexander’s soldiers who supported Diosip; but if Macedonians had been Greeks, why didn’t the Greeks give the same treatment to Horata the Macedonian, as they supported Diosip only because he was a Greek? Therefore, if sometimes mostly among the Barbarians, there is a saying that Alexander was Greek, it’s because they were most familiar with the Greeks, because of their past wars against the nations of East; therefore they considered all nations on West to be Greeks; something similar is happening nowadays, when Greeks together with Turks and all other nations from East consider all catholic nations to be Franks.

Jeremiah Ruso in “The Chronicles of Moscovia” clearly states that the Russians, meaning the Moscowians had the same language as the ancient Macedonians; and King Phillip, the father of Alexander the Macedonian was born among them, who (as Plutarch in “The life of Alexander”, Yustin in VIIIth book and Sabelik in the III book of “Eneida”, and others tell us) submitted the strongest towns in Greece under his laws, enslaved Greece (who until then had freedom) and through his glorious deeds reached the greatness of the most famous kings. His son Alexander the Macedonian expanded through the boundaries of the earth (according to the First book of Macabians, chapter 1), took the treasures of many people, even making the earth numb. After Alexander’s death, Macedonians governed all nations in the world as well as the Egyptians for 276 years” says Mauro Orbini.
From the book “The Kingdom of the Slavs” by Mauro Orbini, published in 1601, in Pezaro, page 168 – 171.

RagnarofMacedon
18-05-19, 10:04
The Close Racial Kinship Between the Greeks, Bulgarians, and Turks: Macedonia and Thrace By Dr. George Nakratzas
Click here to read the book (http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/the-close-racial-kinship-between-the-greeks-bulgarians-and-turks-by-nakratzas.pdf)
The book is in the PDF-format so you will need a PDF-reader, I suggest that you download Adobe Reader from http://www.adobe.com/
Here is the preface of the book:

PREFACE TO THE THIRD EDITION

The sole purpose of the first edition of this book was to give young Greeks another version of the origins of the modern Greek people, a rather different version, that runs counter to what has been taught in Greek schools for decades.

As the overtones of the modern Greek nationalist mythology gradually came into focus, culminating in such nationalist clichés as the assertion that ‘the Greek nation has no kin’, that the ‘Skopjans’ are ‘Gypsies’, or that the (Former Yugoslav) Republic of Macedonia is an ‘ethnic hotchpotch’, I was taken aback, and eventually got down to writing this, the third edition.

My hopes of doing what I could to set up an opposing force to this rampant nationalism have not been entirely in vain, considering that something like 3,000 copies have been sold all over the country. For a book of this nature, this is quite an achievement.

Viewed in the light of the general situation in Europe, Greece’s present foreign policy has shown that the country’s modern ideological armour is still very much the product of a nationalist upbringing, the roots of which go back to somewhere around the beginning of the nineteenth century. But the nation will never find its way in the European Union carrying this sort of ideological baggage.

One of the cornerstones of this ideology is the unrealistic theory that the modem Greeks, expressing as they do the enduring nature of the Greek language, are the biological descendants of the ancient Greeks. It was concocted in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries to serve as an ideological arsenal in the efforts to create a modern Greek nation in view of the impending collapse of the feudal, theocratic Ottoman Empire. The philosophical challenge to theocracy as a social model of governance first emerged, together with the concept of human rights, in north-western Europe in the sixteenth century, the century of philosophical humanism that produced Erasmus, Shakespeare, and other great thinkers. In Greece, 400 years after the theocratic beliefs of the Middle Ages were first challenged (in 1967, to be precise), there was still talk of ‘the Greece of Greek Christians’; and even today we hear a great deal about ‘Greek Orthodox culture’ — a culture that has never in fact existed as such, being known rather as ‘Orthodox Eastern Roman culture’.

This country’s cultural backwardness has been starkly underlined by the efforts of modern Greek society to use the institution of the European City of Culture (Thessaloniki in 1997) to vaunt the mediaeval ideal of the Orthodox Eastern Roman culture of Mount Athos, not only as a historical and cultural facet of the multiethnic Byzantine Empire, but also as a ‘Greek’ national and religious heritage. These efforts may even have been subsidised by the European Union, at a time when sixty per cent of the population of the Netherlands, one of the most religious countries in Europe, have officially rejected any form of religious doctrine.

A large segment of modern Greek society, which has never really embarked upon the process of ideological modernisation, oscillates desperately between modernism and Greek Orthodox fundamentalism, displaying an inherent inability to make any sort of ideological distinction between the terms ‘race’, nationality’, and ‘cultural or ethnic identity’. Apart from the fact that even well-respected journalists are engaged in daily attempts to convince the younger generation that we are directly descended from ‘our ancient forebears’, views that go against the theory of ‘one race, one religion, one nation’ are regarded as nationally reprehensible. It is on this theory that most Greeks base their belief that there are no minorities in our country, apart from the ‘Greek Moslems’ of Western Thrace. Greek citizens who have publicly proclaimed that they do not feel like Greeks but like ethnic Macedonians or ethnic Turks have been pursued and convicted by Greek justice, which just goes to show that modem Greek society not only fails to show the necessary respect for what is different, but cannot even tolerate it. And, being in the grip of a virulent Hellenocentric egomania, this same society, while denying Greek citizens the right to any ethnic identity other than Greek, constantly exhorts Greeks living in other countries to preserve their Greek ethnic identity.

Personally, I couldn’t care less what race the citizens of modern Greece belong to; the only purpose of this book is to show, and substantiate with written documentation, how rotten and historically untenable obsessive nationalism is, in the hope of infusing as many young people as possible with respect for the right to self-determination of every Greek citizen and every ethnic group that calls itself a minority, as long as the country’s laws and territorial integrity are respected.

RagnarofMacedon
18-05-19, 10:07
Macedonians changed to Bulgarians in census records! (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/2008/03/17/macedonians-changed-to-bulgarians-in-census-records/)

Here is an explanation to why there are no Macedonians in Bulgaria.
Official documents are being altered without the consent of the individual whom it affects.
11054
An explanation to the document;
in column marked #5 you can read the following information about the person:


А – Basic Education


Б – Nationality


В – Citizenship

It is easy to see that every person has been entered as Macedonian in the “Б – Nationality” field, that has later been replaced with Bulgarian written with a red pen.



ALSO
Here is a text describing how the Bulgarians tried to assimilate the Macedonians during their occupation of Macedonia in World War II.
THE BULGARIAN AUTHORITES ATTEMPT TO FINALLY ASSIMILATE THE POPULATION.
Before the end of October 1941, the Bulgarian Municipal authorites sent Officials to the village from the Municipal and District capital – Prilep to conduct a census of the whole population.
The Officials had printed documents with them, were they entered the inhabitants of the village. The documents had all necissary paragraphs to enter the exact evidence (year of birth, place, gender, occupation, education) and finally there was a special paragraph which said “political affiliaton” and “nationality”.
The Officials put their hardest effort on the final paragraph in the census. They asked the people what nationality they are – Serbs or Bulgarians, but Macedonians were not at all mentioned.
Before the Officials began to assimilate the Macedonian population they held a short clarifying speech, in which they said that this people is Bulgarian “in origin” and needs to sign as that and further in the Bulgarian books as evidence.
That speech even more upset the villagers who told them that in this village there are no Serbs neither Bulgarians but only Macedonians. They asked the Officials if they could sign as Macedonian under the paragraph “nationality” in the census.
One of the Policemen tried to explaine to the villagers that Bulgarian and Macedonian are the same; that it has no relevance for the document, which is only a Record which will be in a archive.
The villagers forced the Officials and the Policemen to let them sign as “Macedonian” under the paragraph “nationality”.
Thus in the census Aleksandar S… entered him and his family as Macedonian, and after him followed the other villagers: Vanche S…, Vasil V…, Trajko M…, Dushan M…, Aleksa V…, Jovan S…, Tode V…, Nikola P…, Nikola Z…, and other villagers.
This open statement by the villagers against the Bulgarian assimilation made the Bulgarian Municipal authorities revolt and seek thru the District capital for a village leader from somewhere else to be sent to the village who is a Bulgarian and can help Bulgaria, but in the village of ….. there is noone who claims to be a pure Bulgarian. This was told to them by the villagers from their Municipal village leader Nikola K… on the conference where the new village leader Ilija L… from ….. was announced by a decree.

RagnarofMacedon
18-05-19, 10:16
Greek scholar Evangelos Kofos recognizes People’s Republic of Macedonia in his book “Nationalism And Communism In Macedonia” from 1964.
Thus Greece had no problem with our name containing the word Macedonia or even “Republic of Macedonia”.
11055 11056 11057 11058


So after this propaganda from 1981, they have ISSUE...
On October 1981 national elections in Greece, PASOK (The Panhellenic Socialist Movement, a centre-left political party) won a landslide victory with 48% of the votes, capturing 173 seats in the Greek Parliament. One of the first things on this new government’s agenda was to initiate a campaign to force the population into believing that there is no Macedonian nation and to generally remove the term Macedonia or Macedonians from use. This is the document they issued to that affect.11059


Translation into English:
HELENIC REPUBLIC Top Secret
MINISTRY OF PUBLIC SECURITY
NATIONAL SECURITY SERVICE
Athens, 16th February, 1982
Number of protocol 6502/7-3042?
INTRODUCTION
a) The Skopians’ activities for the autonomy of Macedonia may be efficiently confronted mainly by wiping out the use of the idiom, in the regions near the borders. This opinion is based on the realizations that also other regions that in older times were center of “Macedonism”, like Kastoria, are no hit by the Skopian propaganda, because there the use of the idiom has been almost wiped out.
b) This element by itself would be enough to exclude any thoughts of repatriation of the P/R (political refugees) who now reside in Yugoslavia and who have been brought up with the “Macedonian idea”, the “Macedonian language and culture”, independently of their participation or not to the organizations SNOF, NOF and activities take for detaching Greek territories during the period 1946-1949
c) As for evidence it is imperative to:
a. The creation of a state institution that will depend from the Prefectures of the regions near the borders, lined with the suitable and specially trained to the “Plot against Macedonia” subject, personnel. This institution will engage itself only with this subject, with the supervision of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and will collaborate closely, but in secret with the Security Authorities and all the Public Services (Tax office, Schools, Army, Church, etc)
b. In the public services and especially in the educational institutions the employees who will be in service have to be ignorant of the local idiom.
c. The establishment of special enlightenment seminaries, for all the public service employees and the clergy who are in service in the sensitive region of Macedonia.
d. The establishment of motivations for the obligatory residence of the public servants and other employees, in the quarters of their service (example: payment of the rent, extra pay, etc.)
e. Establishment of the Cultural Association, like “ARISTOTELIS” in Florina and economic help to them, for the realization of events and the publishing of books, newspapers, magazines, etc. And afterwards these will be sent to the Diaspora abroad who has origins from the regions of the senders. This will boost their national sentiment and they will be protected from the anti-Hellenic propaganda that is been practiced by S/M (Slavmacedonians) organizations.
f. Insertion of various obstacles (non-recognition of diplomats, postponement of military service, etc.) for the Greek students who wish to study in Skopje.
g. Marking in each village of persons who due to their kin bounds and their personality influence a large circle of co-villagers and with any means (even with money payments) get close to them and use them properly so they will behave as the fighters of the use of the idiom in their circle. To this direction a very positive and effective role can be that of the Youngerss of the political parties, by the judgement and coordination of the Government, when a between parties agreement will be reached.
h. Recruitment in the Armed Forces, in Police Bodies in the public services and Organisations of employees with origins from Florina region, by exception, and their obligatory location in other areas of the country.
i. The encouragement, by the leadership of the Army of meetings and marriages of Army officers, who are on duty, there and have origins abroad, with women that speak the idiom.
THE CHIEF DIMITRIS KAPELARIS ANT/GOS

Yetos
18-05-19, 10:33
@ Ragnaro no 1

man,

what are talking about

You used Isokrates,
and created fictional results,

WHY you do nost this from Isokrates

Ἄργος μὲν γάρ ἐστίν σοι πατρὶς, ἧς δίκαιον τοσαύτην σε ποιεῖσθαι πρόνοιαν ὅσην περ τῶν γονέων τῶν σαυτοῦ· Θηβαῖοι δὲ τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τοῦ γένους ὑμῶν τιμῶσιν καὶ ταῖς προσόδοις καὶ ταῖς θυσίαις μᾶλλον ἢ τοὺς θεοὺς τοὺς ἄλλους· [33] Λακεδαιμόνιοι δὲ τοῖς ἀπ᾽ ἐκείνου γεγονόσιν καὶ τὴν βασιλείαν καὶ τὴν ἡγεμονίαν εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν χρόνον δεδώκασιν· τὴν δὲ πόλιν τὴν ἡμετέραν φασὶν, οἷσπερ περὶ τῶν παλαιῶν πιστεύομεν, Ἡρακλεῖ μὲν συναιτίαν γενέσθαι τῆς ἀθανασίας —ὃν δὲ τρόπον, σοὶ μὲν αὖθις πυθέσθαι ῥᾴδιον, ἐμοὶ δὲ νῦν εἰπεῖν οὐ καιρός— τοῖς δὲ παισὶ τοῖς ἐκείνου τῆς σωτηρίας..


So enough with paraphrasing ancients wrong way,
Here as you see Isokrates not only admits,
BUT MAKES A HYMN ON THE GREEK HERITAGE OF MAKEDONIANS


and the question now is
was Isokrates a mad one?
Or some Insane Slavs, in order to claim Makedonian ancestry,
paraphrase some pieces of Isokrates?

and the answer is that some weird Slavs, do paraphrase Isokrates, isolating parts,


From Isokrates to Phillip 5 ch 32-33

[32] Γνοίης δ᾽ ἂν ὡς οὐδεμιᾶς σοι προσήκει τούτων ὀλιγωρεῖν, ἢν ἀνενέγκῃς αὐτῶν τὰς πράξεις ἐπὶ τοὺς σαυτοῦ προγόνους· εὑρήσεις γὰρ ἑκάστῃ πολλὴν φιλίαν πρὸς ὑμᾶς καὶ μεγάλας εὐεργεσίας ὑπαρχούσας. Ἄργος μὲν γάρ ἐστίν σοι πατρὶς, ἧς δίκαιον τοσαύτην σε ποιεῖσθαι πρόνοιαν ὅσην περ τῶν γονέων τῶν σαυτοῦ· Θηβαῖοι δὲ τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τοῦ γένους ὑμῶν τιμῶσιν καὶ ταῖς προσόδοις καὶ ταῖς θυσίαις μᾶλλον ἢ τοὺς θεοὺς τοὺς ἄλλους· [33] Λακεδαιμόνιοι δὲ τοῖς ἀπ᾽ ἐκείνου γεγονόσιν καὶ τὴν βασιλείαν καὶ τὴν ἡγεμονίαν εἰς ἅπαντα τὸν χρόνον δεδώκασιν· τὴν δὲ πόλιν τὴν ἡμετέραν φασὶν, οἷσπερ περὶ τῶν παλαιῶν πιστεύομεν, Ἡρακλεῖ μὲν συναιτίαν γενέσθαι τῆς ἀθανασίας —ὃν δὲ τρόπον, σοὶ μὲν αὖθις πυθέσθαι ῥᾴδιον, ἐμοὶ δὲ νῦν εἰπεῖν οὐ καιρός— τοῖς δὲ παισὶ τοῖς ἐκείνου τῆς σωτηρίας.

Yetos
18-05-19, 10:42
@ Ragnaro no2


And occupation still goes...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=05TyPWI6A8o
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9TVQpxdvS4
The following video shows Macedonians running away from Aegean Macedonia, trying to escape from the bombardment and retaliation from the government forces, after they won the civil war against the Democratic Army of Greece.
The official Greek position on this is that the communists have abducted these GREEK children and spread them through communist countries in order to brainwash them, and then return them to Greece (probably to start a communist revolution). However, the TESTIMONIES of these people, and some of them are still very much alive, say quite the opposite: that they were running away from the bombs coming from the party that won the Greek Civil War.
Today, 60 years after the exodus of the Macedonians and 20 years since the fall of the communist regimes in Europe, Greece is still “afraid” to let the refugees back home. These people, or their children, are still forbidden to enter Greece and reclaim their land, unless they declare themselves as “Greek by genus” – which is an example of the racist laws implemented in Greece, or a form of an ethnic genocide, something we often saw during the wars in some other Balkan countries.
This is what Nazi Germany did to the Jews, this is what Fascist Greece did towards the Macedonians.
Nazi Germany paid for their wrongdoings will Greece pay?


CHRIS STEFOU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrWNWVNJMOg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k8oW_hcNyZc



As the Irish patriot Roger Casement (executed by the British after the 1916 uprising in Ireland) put it:
“I know of two tragic histories in the world – that of Ireland and that of Macedonia. Both of them have been deprived and tormented.”
Casement was speaking primarily of the Macedonians who then inhabited the lands that fell within the borders of the ancient Macedonian homeland.




That is why the Communists send Greek children at Poland and at Taskende Uzbekistan?
cause they were 'Makedonians'?

come on, sending children from Makedonia at 7th block at taskend Uzbekistan was the desire of a 'Makedonian'?

Or a fully organised crime by Communists
Stalin is no different than Hitler,
and Tito in order to worship him for his great Yugoslavia, he himshelf destroy the country he made after 1974
Tito wanted people to remember him as great man, so he himshelf, created Makedonia, Kossovo, etc etc
he made Yugoslvia great, he destroy Yugoslavia.


Sending children from N Greece to Poland, Czech, even Uzbekistan, is not a savour to SlavoMakedonians,
It is an organised crime of Communists,
they send also children from Epirus, was this a Slavomakedonian id plan?

Yetos
18-05-19, 10:54
@ Ragnaro no 3

The Politi-Kalfov protocol-agreement.

after WW1 among Greece and Bulgaria happened an agreement of exchange population,
Greeks came from Bulgaria, and Bulgarians from Greece moved to Bulgaria

Why kingdom of Serbia did not, did this, and later communist Tito?
why the more than 30% of Monasterion left their homes and moved to Greece and rest Europe and USA
who force them to leave?
and if Greek is Fasist, why in some villages SlavoMakedonian are spoken free,
and Greek does not in Fyrom?

I suggest think before you speak,

by Prespes treaty you earned a lot,
Greece lost a lot,
it is Time to recogn and come to a protocol like Politi-Kalfov
recogning the Greek minority that is about 14% today at Skopjie.
since you have your own state, it is time to stop playing the games of Serbia, Bulgaria, Turkey,
and face the truth, and make your own treaties, and agreements.

Dianatomia
18-05-19, 14:44
Of course that mean patriot , φιλέλλην, from φίλος - philos, "friend" + Έλλην - Hellen, "Greek , FRIEND OF GREEKS OR GREEK-FRIEND.


Yes, I know what these two words mean. I take it you are not an expert in the Ancient Greek language. The bottom line is that a philhellene in Ancient Greek could be someone of Greek or non-Greek origin. In modern English and modern Greek it is associated to non-Greeks only. So the connotation has shifted over time.

As for the Ancient Macedonians. Find me material evidence of a non-Greek language or culture associated to them and you will not convince me, but also the academic community. Someone who claims that Ancient Macedonians were different because they drank different, sat in different positions or we can not find evidence of their non-Greek language because the only scribes where Greek attests to the fact there is no evidence to support otherwise.

We have material evidence that Illyrians and Thracians were not Greek. Yet we have no such evidence for the Ancient Macedonians who conquered the known world. I would say, if the shoe fits...

LABERIA
18-05-19, 14:59
Yes, I know what these two words mean. I take it you are not an expert in the Ancient Greek language. The bottom line is that a philhellene in Ancient Greek could be someone of Greek or non-Greek origin. In modern English and modern Greek it is associated to non-Greeks only. So the connotation has shifted over time.

As for the Ancient Macedonians. Find me material evidence of a non-Greek language or culture associated to them and you will not convince me, but also the academic community. Someone who claims that Ancient Macedonians were different because they drank different, sat in different positions or we can not find evidence of their non-Greek language because the only scribes where Greek attests to the fact there is no evidence to support otherwise.

We have material evidence that Illyrians and Thracians were not Greek. Yet we have no such evidence for the Ancient Macedonians who conquered the known world. I would say, if the shoe fits...

I am very curious to know if you greeks have preserved throught the history the memory of Alexander the Great. I mean, do you have preserved his memory in your folk tradition? Do you have any medieval chronicle where you talk about this great man that you consider a Greek?
Thanks in advance.

Dianatomia
18-05-19, 18:23
I am very curious to know if you greeks have preserved throught the history the memory of Alexander the Great. I mean, do you have preserved his memory in your folk tradition? Do you have any medieval chronicle where you talk about this great man that you consider a Greek?
Thanks in advance.

The memory of Alexander had survived within the Greek literary tradition indeed. In fact, if it wasn't for the Greek literary tradition, it is quite likely that we would not have known much of Alexander. Similarly, the same is true for the geographical term 'Macedonia'. It is through Greek culture that this name had survived and has been referred to continuously. In any case, naturally I am not going to do a full research on Alexander in Byzantine literature. But I have come across references of Alexander in later Greek era's quite some times. The one which come to mind was Manuel Palaiologos where he, during the Siege of Thessalonica by the Turks, reminded the citizens of Thessalonica that they are the heirs of Alexander and that they had to defend the city with their lives.

Alexander also has survived in Byzantine Greek art. Like this 14th century drawing where it shows how Alexander killed Darius:
https://olympiada.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/keimeno_megas_alexandros1.jpg

You will find many more here:
https://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/bitstream/10442/14245/1/Tourta-Alexander.pdf

Here is a book you will find interesting. Though you need access to read it.
https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004307728/B9789004307728_008.xml?lang=en

There are also medieval chronicles as you stated. But I have found a link only and it is in Greek.
https://www.politeianet.gr/books/9789600119923-glukatzi-arbeler-eleni-gutenberg-o-megas-alexandros-ton-buzantinon-290731

It would be nice if I can start a new threat and gather as many referrals as possible about Alexander in Medieval Greek works.

LABERIA
18-05-19, 18:49
The memory of Alexander had survived within the Greek literary tradition indeed. In fact, if it wasn't for the Greek literary tradition, it is quite likely that we would not have known much of Alexander. Similarly, the same is true for the geographical term 'Macedonia'. It is through Greek culture that this name had survived and has been referred to continuously. In any case, naturally I am not going to do a full research on Alexander in Byzantine literature. But I have come across references of Alexander in later Greek era's quite some times. The one which come to mind was Manuel Palaiologos where he, during the Siege of Thessalonica by the Turks, reminded the citizens of Thessalonica that they are the heirs of Alexander and that they had to defend the city with their lives.

Alexander also has survived in Byzantine Greek art. Like this 14th century drawing where it shows how Alexander killed Darius:
https://olympiada.files.wordpress.com/2018/02/keimeno_megas_alexandros1.jpg

You will find many more here:
https://helios-eie.ekt.gr/EIE/bitstream/10442/14245/1/Tourta-Alexander.pdf

Here is a book you will find interesting. Though you need access to read it.
https://brill.com/view/book/edcoll/9789004307728/B9789004307728_008.xml?lang=en

There are also medieval chronicles as you stated. But I have found a link only and it is in Greek.
https://www.politeianet.gr/books/9789600119923-glukatzi-arbeler-eleni-gutenberg-o-megas-alexandros-ton-buzantinon-290731

It would be nice if I can start a new threat and gather as many referrals as possible about Alexander in Medieval Greek works.
Excuse me because seems that you have not understand my question and for this reason i am going to repeat it:

I am very curious to know if you greeks have preserved throught the history the memory of Alexander the Great. I mean, do you have preserved his memory in your folk tradition? Do you have any medieval chronicle where you talk about this great man that you consider a Greek?
Thanks in advance.

I am asking about Greeks, not Romans.

Dianatomia
18-05-19, 19:40
Excuse me because seems that you have not understand my question and for this reason i am going to repeat it:


I am asking about Greeks, not Romans.

So that is where you want to go to. Amazing. You made such a fantastic point. I do not know what to say about that. I am struck.

What can I say? Perhaps they did not speak English? So they didn't use the word 'G R E E K' . They didn't even have Latin characters. It's very confusing.

I am kidding obviously. Cheers!

LABERIA
18-05-19, 19:48
So that is where you want to go to. Amazing. You made such a fantastic point. I do not know what to say about that. I am struck.

What can I say? Perhaps they did not speak English? So they didn't use the word 'G R E E K' . They didn't even have Latin characters. It's very confusing.

I am kidding obviously. Cheers!
Thank you very much for your answer. I got the information that i was interested.

Yetos
18-05-19, 20:06
The proud of Argeiad Makedonian Women
The Helmet, which Alexander allow them to had,
Living memmory till today.

http://www.foustanela.gr/plakidas/images/site/foresies/makedonia/alexandreia_imathias/imathias_04.jpg

It is enough,

it is even tied on head via a imantas infront neck

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b8/a3/de/b8a3de927a7101e38189a3bbb70d6230.jpg

Piro Ilir
20-05-19, 16:43
@ Ragnaro no 3

The Politi-Kalfov protocol-agreement.

after WW1 among Greece and Bulgaria happened an agreement of exchange population,
Greeks came from Bulgaria, and Bulgarians from Greece moved to Bulgaria

Why kingdom of Serbia did not, did this, and later communist Tito?
why the more than 30% of Monasterion left their homes and moved to Greece and rest Europe and USA
who force them to leave?
and if Greek is Fasist, why in some villages SlavoMakedonian are spoken free,
and Greek does not in Fyrom?

I suggest think before you speak,

by Prespes treaty you earned a lot,
Greece lost a lot,
it is Time to recogn and come to a protocol like Politi-Kalfov
recogning the Greek minority that is about 14% today at Skopjie.
since you have your own state, it is time to stop playing the games of Serbia, Bulgaria, Turkey,
and face the truth, and make your own treaties, and agreements.




'Greek minority in Skopje'! . Don't make me laugh that much

Piro Ilir
20-05-19, 16:51
Yes, I know what these two words mean. I take it you are not an expert in the Ancient Greek language. The bottom line is that a philhellene in Ancient Greek could be someone of Greek or non-Greek origin. In modern English and modern Greek it is associated to non-Greeks only. So the connotation has shifted over time.

As for the Ancient Macedonians. Find me material evidence of a non-Greek language or culture associated to them and you will not convince me, but also the academic community. Someone who claims that Ancient Macedonians were different because they drank different, sat in different positions or we can not find evidence of their non-Greek language because the only scribes where Greek attests to the fact there is no evidence to support otherwise.

We have material evidence that Illyrians and Thracians were not Greek. Yet we have no such evidence for the Ancient Macedonians who conquered the known world. I would say, if the shoe fits...

Illyrian language wasn't written , but still it doesn't mean Illyrians didn't existed as a separate ethnicity.

Eteo/Cretans were a distinct ethnicity surviving well through the iron age in Crete, but they also were part of the Hellenic world.
We know that there were different people of non Greek ethnicity or descent and whether being part of the mighty Greek world.

LABERIA
20-05-19, 16:51
'Greek minority in Skopje'! . Don't make me laugh that much
Until few years before the Congress of Berlin (1878), Greeks considered even Serbs as Greeks.

RagnarofMacedon
21-05-19, 23:34
There is no evidence that ancient macedonian was Greek dialect,It is belived that macedonian was similar to thracian/moesian ,The thing that there was many texts and some coins on koine language in that time internation language (Nowdays Greek) ,because many barbarians like Macedonians accept Hellenism, that was popular thing in ancient time , influence by neighbors , many of barbarians like Macedonians and thracians by Profesor Kenneth W.Harl they accepted Hellenism to can marry Greek woman, coz it was forbidden to non-greeks to marry greek woman unless they accept Greek culture and Language.
Also there is not trace or evidence for Illyrian language , from many ancient and new historians believes that Macedonians,Thracians,Illyrians and Moesians speaks very similar language, but still there is not evindence for theirs language.

Aspar
21-05-19, 23:50
There is no evidence that ancient macedonian was Greek dialect,It is belived that macedonian was similar to thracian/moesian ,The thing that there was many texts and some coins on koine language in that time internation language (Nowdays Greek) ,because many barbarians like Macedonians accept Hellenism, that was popular thing in ancient time , influence by neighbors , many of barbarians like Macedonians and thracians by Profesor Kenneth W.Harl they accepted Hellenism to can marry Greek woman, coz it was forbidden to non-greeks to marry greek woman unless they accept Greek culture and Language.
Also there is not trace or evidence for Illyrian language , from many ancient and new historians believes that Macedonians,Thracians,Illyrians and Moesians speaks very similar language, but still there is not evindence for theirs language.

If the ancient Macedonians were Hellenized, than there is no point of discussing whether they were originally Greeks or not since they became Greeks and were spreading Hellenism!

Why is that some Macedonians like yourself get into the trap so easily of discussing the ancient Macedonians and make a favour to the Greeks of denying our ethnicity?

Our name and and ethnicity is not bound to the ancient Macedonians.
We have right to call ourselves as such whether the ancients were Greeks or not.
End of story!

RagnarofMacedon
21-05-19, 23:51
I came to one conclusion , that how many evindence i will show or someone else there is always butthurt Greeks that will trick your words and make to manipulating with everything, everything what is against their imaginary thats not true , that is said in another context, any way these days there is like 90% of Historians,profesors also many ancient historians and orators who said Macedonians were not Greeks, there is even tons of lectures, but no thats all in another context said...Anyways some stupid records which is i hope IN ANOTHER CONTEXT WRITED , Macedonia is only 1-2% more slavic than Greeks, if we take in account that Greece is like 4 times bigger by population than Macedonia there is conclusion that in Greece is more slavic people than in Macedonia...:)
Anyways @Yetos knows in what contexts are writen ancient quotes, even i heard something that he was close friend of few ancient historians...
I really want to know what educational degree you have?

Yetos
22-05-19, 04:13
I came to one conclusion , that how many evindence i will show or someone else there is always butthurt Greeks that will trick your words and make to manipulating with everything, everything what is against their imaginary thats not true , that is said in another context, any way these days there is like 90% of Historians,profesors also many ancient historians and orators who said Macedonians were not Greeks, there is even tons of lectures, but no thats all in another context said...Anyways some stupid records which is i hope IN ANOTHER CONTEXT WRITED , Macedonia is only 1-2% more slavic than Greeks, if we take in account that Greece is like 4 times bigger by population than Macedonia there is conclusion that in Greece is more slavic people than in Macedonia...:)
Anyways @Yetos knows in what contexts are writen ancient quotes, even i heard something that he was close friend of few ancient historians...
I really want to know what educational degree you have?

hahaha

No matter all the ancient wrote,
no matter the evidences,
the VMRO followers, will always follow the Communistic propaganda,
Aspar told you something, that you will never understand,
you even wrote about Isokrates who worship Philipp, but probably you never read him at all,

Piro Ilir
25-05-19, 20:55
Thank you very much for your answer. I got the information that i was interested.

Already they remodified the Wikipedia page where is written about 'Alexander I of Macedon', the Philhellene... They have an army of editors there. And well paid either. One is wandering where are going all these German funds...

RagnarofMacedon
08-06-19, 15:29
The ancient Macedonians regarded the Greeks as potentially dangerous neighbors, never as kinsmen. The Greeks stereotyped the Macedonians as "barbarians" and treated them in the same bigoted manner in which they treated all non-Greeks. Herodotus, the Father of History, relates how the Macedonian king Alexander I(498-454 BC), a Philhellene (that is "a friend of the Greeks" and logically a non-Greek), wanted to take a part in the Olympic games. The Greek athletes protested, saying they would not run with a barbarian. Historian Thucydidis also calls the Macedonians barbarians, and so did T (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Thracymachus.html)hracymachus who called Archelaus a barbarian who enslaved Greeks. Demosthenes, the great Athenian statesman and orator, spoke of Philip II as:"... not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honors, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave." [Third Philippic, 31]The Macedonian "barbarian" defeated Greece at the battle of Chaeronea in August 338 BC and appointed himself "Commander of the Greeks". This battle had established Macedonian hegemony over Greece and this date is commonly taken as the end of Greek history and the beginning of the Macedonian era. Greece did not regain its independence until 1827 AD.In 335 BC, Philip's son Alexander campaigned toward the Danube, to secure Macedonia's northern frontier. On rumors of his death, a revolt broke out in Greece with the support of leading Athenians. Alexander marched south covering 240 miles in two weeks. When the revolt continued he sacked Thebes, killing 6,000 people and enslaving the survivors. Only the temples and the house of the poet Pindar were spared.

RagnarofMacedon
08-06-19, 15:40
American Philological Association
Ancient Macedonians Vs the ancient Greeks Differences cited by modern historians
Taken from articles on Ancient History published by A.P.A. Contributors are:1. D.Brenden Nagle " Macedonian Appropriation of Greek Kulturgechichte"2. Eugene Borza "Who were (and are) the Macedonians"3. Edmund F. Bloedow "Diplomatic Negotiations between Darius and Alexander: Historical Implications of the First Phase at Marathus in Phoenicia 333/332 BC"[1] ".....the appropriation of Greek Kulturgescichte, and the use by non-Greeks for political purposes against Greeks, is less common, and even less well documented. Here I offer an example of highly effective Macedonian use of Greek cultural history to advance propaganda aims of Philip II which had the double aim of blunting Greek criticism of his state-building while at the same time cloaking his work in the legitimizing terminology devised by Greeks for their own, often violent, colonizing and city founding activities.""camouflage the fact that he was creating a wholly new type of state, a consolidation of ethne under a personal monarchy.""That it has continued to confuse interpreters is testament to the hegomonic power of Greek cultural history and the adroitness of the Macedonians in using this powerful tool of self-identification against its devisers."[2] "On the matter of language, and despite attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of linguist R.A.Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language it was.""Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court of Alexander the Great""no more proof that Macedonians were Greeks than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels and coins proofs that the Thracians were Greeks.[The Greek inscriptions found in Macedonia are not a proof that the Macedonians were Greeks, just like the Greek inscriptions in found in Thrace do not prove that the Thracians were Greek as well. We know for certain that the Thracians were non-Greek nation, therefore, the using of Greek on the territories of Macedonia and Thrace does not prove that the Thracians nor the Macedonians were Greeks]"What did others say about Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information", writes Borza, "from Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes), based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded the Greeks and the Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility."Yet there is much that is different, e.g., their political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments:[3] "The designation of Macedonia as part of Greece has intrigued modern critics. This, according to Schachermeyr, is enough to 'take one's breath away'. He went so far as to suggest that, however brief, it encapsulates a whole and bold strategy: to counter the Great King's strategy of attempting to exploit the age-old distinction between Macedonians and Hellenes. The reason for including Macedonia as part of larger Hellas was designed to justify Macedonian participation in the so-called war of revenge. Whatever the truth on this point, on the basis of what we know happened in Macedonia in 480, Alexander had no more grounds for carrying out a war of revenge on behalf of Macedonia than he had on behalf of Athens or Sparta. Of course, Macedonians never regarded their territory as forming part of Greece, and certainly the Greek poleis did not regard Macedonia as being another Greek polis. The reason why Alexander here includes Macedonia as being part of Greece may be an attempt to paper over the glaring anomaly between what Philip and he had just done to 'the rest of Greece' and what he is in the process of doing to the Persian empire. The Persians had never done anything significant against the Macedonians. It is noteworthy that Herodotus, although he provides considerable information on Xerxes' activities when he passed through Macedonia in 480, does not record any acts of destruction--- scarcely surprising if Xerxes was instrumental in Macedonia gaining control of Upper Macedonia."[4] "What is more important is the that Chaeronea, Thebes, and Agis make a complete mockery of attempting in this context to suggest that the Greeks in Hellas regarded themselves as willing subjects under legitimate Macedonian kings (Philip and Alexander) or- that the inhabitants of the regions he had just conquered did so entirely of their own will".[We need to refresh our memories about Isocrates' letter to Philip where he, Isocrates, makes clear that: (a) "Philips's ancestors understood that Greeks cannot submit to the rule of a monarch, while non-Greeks actually cannot live without such a regime", and (b) "people of non-kindred race" - was the term used by Isocrates to describe the Macedonians. Obviously, highlighting the distinction between Macedonians and Greeks.]The epitaph composed by Demosthenes for the common grave of the fallen Hellenes at Chaeronea reads as follows:"Time whose o'erseeng eye records all human actions, Bear word to mankind what fate was suffered,how Striving to safeguard the holly soil of Hellas Upon Boeotia's plain we died.""If all the peoples in the regions which Alexander had conquered were willing subjects under the new king, he presumably should not have left any military troops with the satraps he everywhere instated."[What an arrogant bluff by Alexander, to refer to the conquered people as "willing subjects". What Alexander failed to disclose is the fact that he left "no less than one quarter of his forces behind under one of Philip's most tried generals when he set out for Asia!"]

RagnarofMacedon
08-06-19, 15:41
Eugene Borza
Professor of Ancient History at the Pennsylvania State University
Makedonika and In the Shadow of Olympus The American Philological Association refers to E. Borza as the "Macedonian specialist". In the introductory chapter of "Makedonika" by Carol G. Thomas, Eugene Borza is also called "the Macedonian specialist", and his colleague Peter Green describes Eugene's work on Macedonia as "seminal". Do Ancient Historians hold Eugene Borza in high esteem? Please read what P. Green thinks of Borza's approach to the studies of ancient history, and of his method of abstraction of truth: "Never was a man less given to the kind of mean-spirited odium philologicum that so often marks classical debate. Gene could slice an argument to pieces while still charming its exponents out of the trees."Ernst Badian from Harward University writes: "It is chiefly Gene's merit that recognizably historical interpretation of the history of classical Macedonia has not only become possible, but it is now accepted by all ancient historians who have no vested interest in the mythology superseded by Gene's work. Needless to say, I welcome and agree with that approach and have never disagreed with him except on relatively trivial details of interpretation." Here are some excerpts from Borza's writings regarding the Ancient Macedonians and the Ancient Greeks. I will offer no interpretations, for none is needed, indeed. On the matter of distinction between Greeks and Macedonians:[1] "Neither Greeks nor Macedonians considered the Macedonians to be Greeks."[2] On the composition of Alexander's army: "Thus we look in vain for the evidence that Alexander was heavily dependent upon Greeks either in quantity or quality."[3] "The pattern is clear: the trend toward the end of the king's life was to install Macedonians in key positions at the expense of Asians, and to retain very few Greeks."[4] "The conclusion is inescapable: there was a largely ethnic Macedonian imperial administration from beginning to end. Alexander used Greeks in court for cultural reasons, Greek troops (often under Macedonian commanders) for limited tasks and with some discomfort, and Greek commanders and officals for limited duties. Typically, a Greek will enter Alexander's service from an Aegean or Asian city through the practice of some special activity: he could read and write, keep figures or sail, all of which skills the Macedonians required. Some Greeks may have moved on to military service as well. In other words, the role of Greeks in Alexander's service was not much different from what their role had been in the services of Xerxes and the third Darius."[5] On the policy of hellenization with Alexander conquest of Asia and the Greek assertion that he spread Hellenism: "If one wishes to believe that Alexander had a policy of hellenization - as opposed to the incidental and informal spread of Greek culture - the evidence must come from sources other than those presented here. One wonders - archeology aside - where this evidence would be." On the ethnic tension between Macedonians and Greeks, referring to the episode of Eumenes of Cardia and his bid to reach the throne: "And if there were any doubt about the status of Greeks among the Macedonians the tragic career of Eumenes in the immediate Wars of succession should put it to rest. The ancient sources are replete with information about the ethnic prejudice Eumenes suffered from Macedonians."[6] On the issue of whether Alexander and Philip "united" the Greek city-states or conquered them: "In European Greece Alexander continued and reinforced Philip II's policy of rule over the city-states, a rule resulting from conquest."[7] "The tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division."[8] On Alexander's dimissal of his Greek allies: "A few days later at Ecbatana, Alexander dismissed his Greek allies, and charade with Greece was over."[9] On the so called Dorian invasion: The theory of the Dorian invasion (based on Hdt. 9.26, followed by Thuc. I.12) is largely an invention of nineteenth-century historography, and is otherwise unsupported by either archeological or linguistic evidence."[10] "The Dorians are invisible archeologically."[11] "There is no archeological record of the Dorian movements, and the mythic arguments are largely conjectural, based on folk traditions about the Dorian home originally having been in northwest Greece.[12] "The explanation for the connection between the Dorians and the Macedonians may be more ingenious than convincing, resting uncomfortably on myth and conjecture."[13] On the Macedonian own tradition and origin: "As the Macedonians settled the region following the expulsion of existing peoples, they probably introduced their own customs and language(s); there is no evidence that they adopted any existing language, even though they were now in contact with neighboring populations who spoke a variety of Greek and non-Greek tongues."[14] On the Macedonian language: "The main evidence for Macedonian existing as separate language comes from a handful of late sources describing events in the train of Alexander the Great, where the Macedonian tongue is mentioned specifically."[15] "The evidence suggests that Macedonian was distinct from ordinary Attic Greek used as a language of the court and of diplomacy."[16] "The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from Greek - do not show the changes expected from Greek dialect."[17] On the Macedonian material culture being different from the Greek: "The most visible expression of material culture thus far recovered are the fourth - and third-century tombs. The architectural form, decoration, and burial goods of these tombs, which now number between sixty and seventy, are unlike what is found in the Greek south, or even in the neighboring independent Greek cities of the north Aegean littoral (exception Amphipolis). Macedonian burial habits suggest different view of the afterlife from the Greeks', even while many of the same gods were worshipped."[18] "Many of the public expressions of worship may have been different."[19] "There is an absence of major public religious monuments from Macedonian sites before the end of the fourth century (another difference from the Greeks)."[20] "Must be cautious both in attributing Greek forms of worship to the Macedonians and in using these forms of worship as a means of confirming Hellenic identity."[21] "In brief, one must conclude that the similarities between some Macedonian and Greek customs and objects are not of themselves proof that Macedonians were a Greek tribe, even though it is undeniable that on certain levels Greek cultural influences eventually became pervasive."[22] "Greeks and Macedonians remained steadfastly antipathetic toward one another (with dislike of a different quality than the mutual long-term hostility shared by some Greek city-states) until well into the Hellenic period, when both the culmination of hellenic acculturation in the north and the rise of Rome made it clear that what these peoples shared took precedence over their historical enmities."[23] "They made their mark not as a tribe of Greek or other Balkan peoples, but as 'Macedonians'. This was understood by foreign protagonists from the time of Darius and Xerxes to the age of Roman generals."[24] "It is time to put the matter of the Macedonians' ethnic identity to rest."[25] "There is other aspect of Alexander's Greek policy, and that is his formal relationship with the Greek cities of Europe and Asia. In European Greece Alexander continued and reinforced Philip II's policy rule over the city-states, a rule resulting from conquest. As for the island Greeks and the cities of Asia Minor, their status under the reigns of Philip and Alexander has been much debated. Fortunately, for my purposes, the status of these cities, whether as members of Philip's panhellenic league or as independent towns, is not crucial, as they were in fact all treated by Alexander as subjects. Much of the debate on this issue, while interesting and occasionally enlightening, has sometimes obscured a simple reality: Greeks on both sides of the Aegean were subjects to the authority of the king of Macedon." Ethnicity and Cultural Policy at Alexander's Court. Makedonika[26] "I have not cited several pieces of anecdotal evidence from the sources on Alexander that establish the continuing tension at court between Greeks and Macedonians, tension that the ancient authors clearly recognized as ethnic division. A fuller version of this study will consider these incidents to support my view that Greeks and Macedonians did not get along very well with one another and that this ethnic tension was exploited by the king himself." Makedonika p.158 [27] "What did others say about Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information", writes Borza, "from Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes), based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded the Greeks and the Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility."

RagnarofMacedon
08-06-19, 15:41
Ernst Badian
Department of History at Harvard University
Macedonia and Greece in Late Classical and Early Hellenistic Times [1] "There is no evidence of any Macedonian claim to a Greek connection before the Persian war."[2] On Alexander's I attempt to enter the Olympic games: "There were outraged protests from the other competitors, who rejected Alexander I as a barbarian -- which proves at the least, that the Teminid [Greek] descent and the royal genealogy had hitherto been an esoteric knowledge." The Olympic games in Greece were reserved for Greeks only.[3] "With the exception of the single item, no Macedonian king between Alexander I and Philip II is in anyway connected with the Olympic or any other games.[4] The Macedonian king Archelaus founded Macedonian Olympic games which Badian calls it "counter Olympics".[5] "No Macedonian appears on the list of Olympic victors that have survived (a fair proportion of the whole) until well into the reign of Alexander the Great."[6] "Nor do we find the Macedonian people ever regarded as a political entity transacting business with the Greek states."[7] "For political purposes no difference was seen between Macedonians and (say) Thracian and Persian, i.e. other nations under monarchical rule. This may have been a contributing factor in unwillingness to recognize Macedonians as Greek."[8] On Alexander the Great: "Characteristically for Alexander despite his thorough Greek education and obviously genuine interest in Greek literature, was nevertheless a Macedonian king."[9] On Philip, "Greeks never commanded his armies".[10] Alexander's integration of troops: "...interesting to notice that he never - either before or at the time - tried to integrate Greeks into the Macedonian units that were his best military assets, either in the tactical or in the emotional sphere, while at the very end, both for tactical and for political reasons integration of Macedonians and Iranians was important, while integration of Greeks with either was not."[11] On Macedonian language: "The suggestion is surely that Macedonian was the language of the infantry and that the Greek was a difficult indeed a foreign tongue to them".[12] Alexander never tried to impose Greek on his Macedonian infantry, or to integrate it with Greek 'foreign' individuals".[13] On Demosthenes' tirades about Macedonians: "... we are concerned only with sentiment, which is itself historical fact and must be taken seriously as such. In these tirades we find not only the Hellenic descent of Macedonian people (which few seriously accepted) totally denied, but even that of the king."[14] "As regards the Macedonian nation as a whole, (there was as we can see) no division. They were regarded as clearly barbarian, despite the various myths.[15] "Philip had not tried to pass of his Macedonians as Greeks"[16] "He, Philip, never tried to make his Macedonians members of the Hellenic league."[17] "The feeling of being peoples of nonkindred race existed on both side" referring to Isocrates' statement.[18] On Python and the 17,000 Greek soldiers cut down by Macedonian soldiers: " the patent needs of the empire and the oath of their commander were swallowed up in the explosion of what we can only regard as the men's irrational hatred for their Greek enemies."

RagnarofMacedon
08-06-19, 15:46
Peter Green
Historian and Professor of Classics at the University of Texas
Alexander of Macedon and Alexander to Actium

[1] "The Colonels, as it happened, promoted Alexander as a great Greek hero, especially to army recruits: the Greeks of the fourth century B.C., to whom Alexander was a half-Macedonian, half-Epirote barbarian conqueror, would have found this metamorphosis as ironic as I did." [The Greek island on which Peter Green stayed while working on his book, happened to be the same island on which the Greek Colonels, after assuming power in Greece, used it as a dumping-ground for royalist officers and "thinkers with mind of their own".]
[2] "Macedonia was the first large territorial state with an effective centralized political, military and administrative structure to come into being on the continent of Europe". [p.1]
[3] "No one had forgotten that Alexander I, known ironically as ‘the philhellene’, had been debarred from the Olympic Games until he manufactured a pedigree connecting the Argeads with the ancient Argive kings". [p.7] [On p.9 Green refers to this Argive link as ‘fictitious’.]
[4] Isocrates’ letter to Philip II where he, Isocrates refers to Philip "as one who has been blessed with untrammeled freedom to consider Hellas your fatherland" Green calls this a "rhetorical hyperbole". "Indeed, taken as a whole the Address to Philip must have caused its recipient considerable sardonic amusement". [p. 49] "Its ethnic conceit was only equaled by its naivety" [p.49]
[5] "And though Philip did not give a fig for Panhellenism as an idea, he at once saw how it could be turned into highly effective camouflage ( a notion which his son subsequently took over ready-made). Isocrates had, unwittingly, supplied him with the propaganda-line he needed. From now on he merely had to clothe his Macedonian ambitions in a suitable Panhellenic dress." [p.50]
[6] "The Greeks had done a deal with Artaxerxes, [Persian commander], and if Philip did not move fast it would be they who invaded his territory, not he theirs. In the event, he moved faster than anyone could have predicted." [p.69]
[7] "The Greek states retained no more than a pale shadow of their former freedom". [p.80] [This is how Philip "united" the Greek states.]
[8] "The dedication of the Philipeum was a salutary reminder that from now on, whatever democratic forms might be employed as a salve to the Greeks’ self-respect, it was Philip who led and they who followed."[p.86]
[9] "The Greek states were to make a common peace and alliance with one another, and constitute themselves into a federal Hellenic League. Simultaneously, the league was to form a separate alliance with Macedonia, though Macedonia itself would not be a league member." [p.86]
[10] "Philip’s Panhellenism was no more than a convenient placebo to keep his allies quiet, a cloak for further Macedonian aggrandizement." [p.87]
[11] "Most Greek statesmen recognized this only too well. To them, their self-styled hegemon was still a semi-barbarian autocrat, whose wishes had been imposed on them by right of conquest; and when Alexander succeeded Philip, he inherited the same bitter legacy of hatred and resentment - which his own policies did little to dispel." [p.87]
[12] "The military contingent they supplied were, in reality, so many hostages for their good behavior. As we shall see, whenever they saw the slightest chance of throwing off the Macedonian yoke, they took it." [p. 87]
[13] "Some 15,000 Greek mercenaries, not to mention numerous doctors, technicians and professional diplomats, were already on the Persian pay-roll; twice as many men, in fact, as the league ultimately contributed for the supposedly Panhellenic crusade against Darius." [p.95]
[14] "In the early spring of 336, an advance force of 10,000 men, including a thousand cavalry, crossed over to Asia Minor. Its task was to secure the Hellespont, to stockpile supplies, and in Philip’s pleasantly cynicalphrase, to ‘liberate the Greek cities’." [p.98] [The operative word is "cynical phrase" to ‘liberate the Greek cities’.]
[15] "Only the Spartans held aloof. The traditions of their country, they informed the king, did not allow them to serve under a foreign leader. (So much for Macedonia’s pretensions to Hellenism.) Alexander did not press the point....." [p.121] [The operative word is "a foreign leader" referring to Alexander.]
[16] [Regarding the news of Alexander’s death.] "If anyone had doubts about the report, he quickly suppressed them: this, after all, was just what every patriotic Greek had hoped and prayed might happen." [p.136]
[17] "Darius reversed his earlier policy of non-intervention, and began to channel gold into Greece wherever he thought it would do most good. He did not, as yet, commit himself to anything more definite: clearly he hoped that the Greek revolt would solve his problem for him. But the mere thought of a Greek-Persian coalition must have turned Alexander’s blood cold." [p.138]
[18] "This was the Panhellenic crusade preached by Isocrates, and as such the king’s propaganda section continued - for the time being - to present it. No one, so far as we know, was tactless enough to ask the obvious question: if this was a Panhellenic crusade, where were the Greek troops? [p. 157]
[19] "Indeed, despite the league’s official veto, far more Greeks fought for the Great King - and remained loyal to the bitter end - than were ever conscripted by Alexander." [p.157]
[20] "What is more, the league’s troops were never used in crucial battles (another significant pointer) but kept on garrison and line-of-communication duties. The sole reason for their presence, apart from propaganda purposes, was to serve as hostages for the good behavior of their friends and relatives in Greece. Alexander found them more of an embarrassment than an asset, and the moment he was in a position to do so, he got rid of them." [p.158]
[21] "Alexander lost no time in getting rid of the league’s forces which accompanied him - another ironic gloss on his role as a leader of a Panhellenic crusade." [p.183]
[22] On the subject of "liberating the Greek cities in Asia: "But the euphemism of a ‘contribution’ did not carry the same unpleasant associations; and the whole scheme, with its implication of a united Greek front, must have made splendid propaganda for home consumption." [p. 188]
[23] On the league’s crews: "Their own crews, he pointed out, were still half-trained (the cities of the league must have been scraping the bottom of the barrel when they chose them); and - a revealing admission - a defeat at this point might well trigger off a general revolt of the Greek states. So much for the Panhellenic crusade. Alexander’s main fear, we need scarcely doubt, was that the league’s fleet might actually desert him if the chance presented itself." [p.190]
[24] "The truth of the matter seems to have been that Alexander distrusted his Greek allies so profoundly - and with good reason - that he preferred to risk the collapse of his campaign in a spate of rebellion rather than entrust its safety to a Greek fleet." [p.192]
[25] "The case of Aspendus exposes, with harsh clarity, Alexander’s fundamental objectives in Asia Minor. So long as he received willing cooperation, the pretence of a Panhellenic crusade could be kept up. But any resistance, the least opposition to his will, met with instant and savage reprisals." [p.208]
[26] "The burning of Persepolis had written finish to the Hellenic crusade as such, and he used this excuse to pay off all his league’s troops, Parmenio’s Thessalians included. The crisis in Greece was over: he no longer needed these potential trouble makers as hostages." [p. 322]
[27] "But Greek public opinion was something of which Alexander took notice only when it suited him; and the league served him as a blanket excuse for various questionable or underhand actions, the destruction of Thebes being merely the most notorious." [p.506-7]
[28] "It is significant that two native rising occurred on the news of Alexander’s death, and both of these, as we shall see in a moment, involved Greeks; there were otherwise no ingenuous revolts against the colonial government." [p.6. "Alex. to Actium"]
[29] "But then, Eumenes was a Greek, and Macedonian troops, especially the old sweats who had served under Philip II, were never really comfortable being led by non-Macedonians." [p.7. "Alex. to Actium".]
[30] "Nearcus never came to much among the Successors: but then he, like Eumenes, was a Greek; worse still, he was a Cretan, and thus a proverbial liar." [p.7. "Alex. to Actium"]
One can clearly see the distinction between ancient Macedonians and the Greeks. Modern Greek's assertion that ancient Macedonians were Greeks simply does not hold any water.

RagnarofMacedon
08-06-19, 15:48
A.B. Bosworth
Professor of Classics and Ancient History, The University of Western Australia
On the Macedonian language and ethnicity of the Macedonian Army [1] Bosworth responds to Hammond regarding the usage of the Macedonian language by Alexander: "I deliberately refrain from adopting any position on the linguistic status of ancient Macedonian. It has little significance outside the nationalistic propaganda of the contemporary Balkan states, in which prejudice and dogma do duty for rational thought. What matters for the present argument is the fact, explicit in Curtius, that Macedonian was largely unintelligible to non-Macedonians. Macedonians might understand Greek, and some Greek (like Eumenes) with experience of Macedon might speak Macedonian. However, even Eumenes took care that a vital message was conveyed to the phalangites of Neoptolemus by a man fluent in Macedonian (MAKEDONI/ZONTA TH]=FWNH]=:PSI 12. 1284,col. ii. 19-20).] "Alexander shouted out in Macedonian, and called the hypaspists in Macedonian." In my view there is nothing at all surprising in the use of Macedonian. Alexander was calling his hypaspists, who were Macedonians, and he addressed them in their native language/dialect."[2] In Hammond's view the soldiers from Lower Macedonia (old kingdom) spoke Macedonian while the soldiers from the Upper Macedonia spoke a dialect of West Greek.Bosworth's response: "The evidence for this hypothesis is decidedly tenuous. Nearly two centuries before Alexander Hecataeus may have described the Orestians as a Molossian tribe, but, as far as I can ascertain, there is no evidence for the language of any or all of the Upper Macedonian people before the time of Alexander, and nothing to suggest that the hypaspists were anything other than linguistically homogeneous." "Alexander's invitation to speak (Curt. 6. 9. 34) presupposes that the entire army spoke Macedonian." "Alexander's challenge presupposes that all the army would understand an address in Macedonian." "He used Macedonian because the troops would instantly understand and (he expected) would react immediately. There is no need for more complicated explanation."It is evident from the text of Arrian, Plutarch, and Curtius Rufus that Alexander's army spoke Macedonian and not Greek. Any other interpretation would be intolerably difficult, if not impossible, to accept.[3] About the Macedonian army: "The turning point in the evolution of Alexander's army appears to have been the year 330. Until then the Macedonian component was progressively reinforced, reaching peaks before Issus and after the arrival of Amyntas' great contingent late in 331. Alexander then thought it safe to divest himself of non Macedonian troops. The forces from the Corinthean League, [the Greek] infantry and cavalry, were demobilized from Ecbetana in the spring of 330; [Arr. III.19.6-7; Plut. Al. 42.5; Diod. XVII.74.3-4; Curt. VI.2.17] even the [Greek] Thessalian cavalry who re-enlisted were dismissed at the Oxus last than a year later (Arr. III.29.5) Alexander now relied on the Macedonian nucleus for front-line work and the mercenaries for support function." [p.271] Conquest and Empire."Alexander had deliberately retained the offsprings of his Macedonian veterans when he demobilized them, promising to train them in Macedonian style.(Arr. VII.12.2; Justin XII.4.2-10.) His ultimate purpose was to weld them into a military force without attachment of race or domicile, loyal to himself alone. The transformation of the Macedonian national army with its regionally based units could not have been more complete." [p.273] Conquest and Empire[4] Bosworth on the allied (including Greek) troops: "The structure of command seems to have been parallel to that of the Macedonian cavalry, with regionally based ilai, but at the head was a Macedonian commander. The rest of the [Greek] allied cavalry, predominantly from central Greece and the Peloponnese, was much less important and effective, fewer in number and less prominent in action. Like the [Greek] Thessalian they were divided into ilai (Tod. GHI no 197.3) under the command of a Macedonian officer." [p.264] Conquest and Empire"The infantry from the allied Greek states is more problematic. They formed a contingent numerically strong, 7,000 of them crossing the Hellespont in 334, and they were predominantly heavy-armed hoplites. But once in Asia they are mainly notable for their absence. There is no explicit record of them in any of the major battles. At Guagamela we may infer that they provided most of the men for the reserve phalanx (Arr. III.12.1), but in the other engagements there is no room for them. They are only mentioned as participants in subsidiary campaigns, usually under Parmenio's command (in the Troad, at the Amanid Gates, in Phrygia, and in the march on Persis), and they never appear in the entourage of Alexander." [p.264] Conquest and Empire[Point of Interest] Are these the Greek troops with Alexander? Are these the same Greek troops with Alexander that went on the Asian conquest? Can Alexander's conquest be called a Greek conquest? Can Alexander's army be called Greek army? There is absolutely nothing in the literature to even remotely suggest that my quest to find and bring forward documented evidence for the ethnic affinity of the ancient Macedonians is losing steam. On the contrary, the conclusion is solidified with avery passing sentence: There was no Greek conquest with Alexander. There was nothing Greek with Alexander or his Macedonians.[5] "There was also the question of loyalty. Alexander might well have been reluctant to rely on men recently vanquished at Chaeronea to face the Hellenic mercenaries in Persian service. It was too much kin against kin, and his Greek allies naturally had less stomach for the task than his native Macedonians." [p.264] Conquest and Empire[6] Alexander's views on the Greeks in Asia. We should never deviate too far from our main focal point to find and present demonstrable evidence where Alexander's actions and policies strongly and convincingly illustrate his innermost feelings and aspirations. Here, you will see that Alexander treated the Greeks in Asia as any other conquered people, and that is a testament, by itself, that, he, Alexander did not view the Greeks as his own people. Judging by his actions, one will be hard press to find any difference between his treatment of the Greeks and that of the barbarians."It is most unlikely that the Greeks of Asia were incorporated in the Corinthian League. This is an issue which has been endlessly debated with surprising intensity, but arguments inevitably founders on the lack of evidence. That silence does have some weight. If the Greek cities had been involved in the League with its symmachical obligations, it is remarkable that there is never any reference to alliance or even to a formal treaty. As we have seen repeatedly, Alexander dealt with them as a victorious despot not as the executive head of an expanding League."[p.255], "As he continued east, the Greeks receded into obscurity and there is virtually no record of them." [p.256] [Conquest and Empire][7] Ancient authors testify that Alexander heavily depended on his Macedonians, whom he called 'his kinsmen', to carry the brunt of his campaign. "Alexander himself seems to have made little distinction in his lastyears between Greeks of Europe or Asia, or even between Greeks and barbarians." [p.257][Point of Interest] And this fact alone, must be constantly born in mind when one ascribes any "greekness" to Alexander. For, Alexander would not put his own people in an equal balance with the barbarians of the East. Was Alexander the Great a Greek King? Does this action suggest anything of a sort? It is morally corrupt, and historically incorrect to even suggest that Alexander the Great belonged to any other nation but Macedonia. He remained loyal to his royal Macedonian heritage to the last day of his life.

RagnarofMacedon
08-06-19, 15:49
N.G.L. Hammond
Professor of Greek University of Cambridge

Hammond is one of the modern writers representing the ‘Greek’ position. It’s interesting to note that Hammond had changed his position. His earlier position was that the Macedonians spoke a "patois which was not recognizable as a normal Doric Greek but may have been a north-west-Greek dialect of a primitive kind" (in other words he couldn’t say for sure). Later however, he changed this position and launched his "firm conclusion" that the Macedonians now spoke a dialect of Aeolic Greek, i.e. the ancient Macedonians were Greek, despite of the overwhelming and extensive research done by Badian and Borza which proved the opposite. Interestingly, he had done this ‘transformation’ towards firm Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians, during the period when the modern Greek propaganda intensified in spreading their "Macedonians are Greek" position, a position which was later used against the part of the modern Macedonian nation that was in a process of getting independence (today’s Republic of Macedonia). It may look like Hammond is a ‘Greek agent’ whose writings reflect the wishes of modern Greece and it’s propaganda, however, in that process he proved that he was obviously ignorant to many of the ancient sources that do not conclude what he concludes. He is also ignorant to many modern sources as well, particularly the ones of Borza, Green, and Badian which have proven in-depth that the Macedonians could not have been Greek. It should be pointed out that Hammond had been proven incorrect in many matters (not just the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians) regarding the history of Macedonia, specifically by the Macedonian specialist Borza. His views are nowadays corrected and regarded as outdated.Although Hammond believes that the Ancient Macedonians had a Greek origin, he however, contradicts himself in few passages where he clearly separates the ancient Macedonians from the ancient Greeks:"We have already inferred from the incident at the Olympic Games c.500 that the Macedonians themselves, as opposed to their kings, were considered not to be Greeks. Herodotus said this clearly in four words, introducing Amyntas, who was king c.500, as 'a Greek ruling over Macedonians' (5.20. 4), and Thucydides described the Macedonians and other northern tribes as 'barbarians' in the sense of 'non-Greeks', despite the fact that they were Greek-speaking. (Thuc. 2. 80. 5-7; 2. 81. 6; 4. 124.1) When it comes to political controversy, it was naturally good invective to call the king a barbarian too. Thus a Greek speesh-writer called the Thessalians 'Greeks' and Archelaus, the contemporary Macedonian king, 'a barbarian'. Demosthenes spoke of Philip II as 'the barbarian from Pella'."Point of Interest: I will stop Hammond here and analyze his last words. He begins by saying that the Macedonians were considered non-Greek. At the end he says that the Macedonians, including their kings were called barbarians i.e. non-Greeks, but he implies that they were really Greek, and were called non-Greek only due to "political controversy". This is not convincing at all. If the ancient Greeks referred to the Macedonians as barbarians only because of political conflict, then why other Greek tribes are not called barbarian or non-Greek by the ancient Greeks. That never happened, during any of the so many political conflicts, "controversies", and wars among the Greek city-states, not involving the Macedonians. Furthermore, the ancient Greeks referred to the Persians as barbarians too. According to Hammond’s logic the Persians are therefore Greek too, but were called non-Greek only because ancient Greece was in "political controversy" with Persia. Hammond’s words obviously make no sense. The ancient Greeks called very clearly all non-Greeks barbarians (Macedonians and Persians included), and any try to change the meaning of that word only in the case of the Macedonians, is ridiculous and can be ascribed as siding with the modern Greek propaganda. Now let’s examine the rest of Hammond’s words:"Writing in 346 and eager to win Philip's approval, Isocrates paid tribute to Philip as a blue-blooded Greek and made it clear at the same time that Macedonians were not Greeks. (Isoc. 5. 108 and 154) Aristotle, born at Stageira on the Macedonian border and the son of a Greek doctor at the Macedonian court, classed the Macedonians and their institution of Monarchy as not Greek, as we shall see shortly. It is thus not surprising that the Macedonians considered themselves to be, and were treated by Alexander the Great as being, separate from the Greeks. They were proud to be so."Interesting (inadvertent) reversals in Hammond narrative: "Philip and Alexander attracted many able foreigners, especially Greeks, to their service, and many of these were made Companions (e.g. Nearchus a Cretan, Eumenes a citizen of Cardia, and Sitalces a member of the Odrysian royal family). Some of them, if they served in the King's Army, were given Macedonian citizenship, which apparently was in the gift of the king." The Macedonian State p.141Points of interest: These phrase alone claims that:(a) Macedonia was a not a Greek land, and(b) that Macedonians were not GreeksOne does not attract foreigners from his own country, and second, one cannot be called a foreigner in his own country."These instances show us that even Philip II and Alexander III introduced very few Greeks into the Assembly of Macedones. They wanted the 'Macedones' to have their own esprit the corps; and those of them who came from Lower Macedonia continued to speak the Macedonian dialect among themselves and to address the king or a commander in that dialect as a sign of affection."[53-an ordinary soldier is represented as speaking in the Macedonian dialect to the dying Alexander in Ps-Callisthenes B 32. 14 (ed. Kroll), and the Macedonian soldiers greeted Eumenes in the Macedonian dialect when he came to command them (Plu. Eum. 14. 11). [p.64]"The name of the ancient Macedonians is derived from Macedon, who was the grandchild of Deukalion, the father of all Greeks. This we may infer from Hesiod's genealogy. It may be proven that Macedonians spoke Greek since Macedon, the ancestor of Macedonians, was a brother of Magnes, the ancestor of Thessalians, who spoke Greek."Response to Hammond's conclusion that the Macedonians were Greek:[1] There were many tribes in Macedonia. If we accept Macedon to be the progenitor of his tribe, where is the connection for the rest of the Macedonian tribes? What about the Lynchestians, Elimiotes, Eordians, Orestians etc., etc.. Besides; In the 'Catalogue of Women', the eponymous founder of Makedonia, Makedon, was the son of Zeus and Deukalion's daughter Thuia. This line of descent excludes him from the Hellenic geneology - and hence, by implication, the Makedonians from the ranks of Hellenism." (Ethnic Identity in Greek Antiquity, by J.Hall, p.64)[2] Professor Borza who is credited as Macedonian specialist and who had completed an extensive research on the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, had proven that Hammond's conclusions that the Macedonians were Greek are inaccurate:"Hammond's firm conclusion that the Macedonians spoke a distinctive dialect of Aeolic Greek is unconvincing to me, resting as it does on an interpretation of a bit of myth quoted by Hellanicus, who made Aeolus the father of the legendary progenitor Macedon". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.92.)"The handful of surviving genuine Macedonian words - not loan words from a Greek - do not show the changes expected from a Greek dialect. And even had they changed at some point it is unlikely that they would have reverted to their original form". ("In the Shadow of Olympus" p.93.)"As a question of method: why would [Macedonia] an area three hundred miles north of Athens - notcolonized by Athens - used an Attic dialect, unless it were imported? That is, the Attic dialect could hardly be native, and its use is likely part of the process of Hellenization. To put the question differently: if the native language of the Macedonians is Greek, what is its Macedonian dialect?"The above passage showed us clearly that Hammond, no mater how firm he stands on his ‘Greek’ position, still contradicts himself by saying that the Macedonians and the Greeks are two separate ethnic groups. The lines of Professor Eugene Borza, had put an end to the Hammond’s speculations of the supposed Greek origin of the ancient Macedonians, and proven on many instances (not just on the ethnicity issue) in In the Shadow of Olympus and Makedonika, that Hammond’s work on the Macedonian history is inaccurate and as such should be rejected.

RagnarofMacedon
08-06-19, 15:49
Werner Jaeger
Demosthenes Here, in these excerpts from Jeager's book, you will find Demosthenes' hatred for Macedon not only readily displayed and exercised, but its Hellenic descent categorically excluded and implicitly denied. The fact that some modern authors ascribe Hellenic affinity to the ancient Macedonians should come to no great surprise because of the impact left by Johan Gustav Droysen on early nineteenth-century historian where Macedon is depicted as a natural "unifier" of the Greek city-states, the same role played by Prussia and Savoy in German and Italian unification in the nineteenth century. "On this false analogy the whole of Greek history was now boldly reconstructed as a necessary process of development leading quite naturally to a single goal: unification of the Greek nation under Macedonian leadership".Demosthenes and most of his contemporaries did not see it that way; to them the leadership of Macedon was seen as the 'death of Greek political liberty' Some people dismiss Demosthenes' outbursts as a political rhetoric, others hold his political abuse of Philip from Macedon as historical facts, undeniably blunt and truthful. His sentiments are, in this case, fundamental historical documents, which testify to the simmering hate and the undamped contempt for the Macedonian conqueror. The hands of the sculptor are being replaced by his sharply cutting tongue. At the end the features emerge to the surface unpretentiously clear and aggressive. Demosthenes unlike Isocrates does not mask his national ideals with "Panhellenistic union" against the Persians, but boldly and aggressively calls his Hellenic nation to an uprising against the barbarian from the north -the Kingdom of Macedon and its king Philip.Demosthenes' cries and pleas are not intended for his beloved Athens only, but to every liberty loving Hellene, and even the Persians themselves. He calls on the Persians to join the Hellenes in the war against Macedon, and at the same time he warns them that if they leave the Greeks in the lurch, they would be next Philip's victim. As destiny would have it, Demosthenes was right. Here we go:[1] "On the Symmories, namely, that Demosthenes originally stood close to a group of politicians who were vigorously combating the radical democratic influence; indeed, it is only to this degree that he can be said to have come from any one party at all. It is true that in later years, when he is coming to grips with the danger of Macedonia's foreign yoke, he naturally appeals to the lofty ideal of Greek liberty." [p.93][2] "It is not until Demosthenes is fighting the "tyranny" of the Macedonian conqueror that the idea of liberty takes on its true color for him and becomes significant as a great national good." [p.93][3] "Even then this watchword of "liberty" serves solely to promote his (Demosthenes' foreign policy; but by that time it has really become an essential factor in his envisagement of the world about him, in which Greece and Macedonia are polar opposites, irreconcilable morally, spiritually, intellectually." [p.93-4][4] "Thereupon all Thessaly submitted to him of its own accord. He was acclaimed as a deliverer and named commander-in-chief of the Thessalian confederacy. He would have marched at once into central Greece as a conquering hero and would probably have brought the war to an end there with a single blow, had not the Athenians and Spartans bestirred themselves to send auxilary troops to Thermopylae, thus shutting against him this gateway to Hellas." [p.114][5] "In the Panegyricus he had urged an understanding between Sparta and Athens, so that the Greeks might unite in a common expedition against the Persian empire. Nothing of that sort was any longer thinkable. But the policy of which he now had such high hopes offered a surprisingly simple solution for the distressing problem that lay heavily on all minds the problem of what was to be the ultimate relationship between Greece and the new power in the north." [p.152][6] "If Philip was not to remain a permanent menace to the Greek world from outside, it was necessary to get him positively involved in the fate of Hellas; for he could not be eluded. Of course in the view of any of the Greek states of the period, this problem was comparable to that of squaring the circle." [p.152][7] "But for Isocrates that was no obstacle. He had long since come to recognize the impossibility of resisting Macedonia, and he was only trying to find the least humiliating way to express the unavoidable submission of all the Greeks to the will of Philip. Here again he found the solution in a scheme for Macedonian hegemony over Greece. For it seems as if Philip's appearance in this role would be most effective way to mitigate his becoming so dominant a factor in Greek history; moreover, it ought to silence all Greek prejudices against the culturally and ethnically alien character of the Macedonians." [p.153][8] "With the help of the role that Isocrates had assigned to him, he had the astuteness to let his cold-blooded policy for the extension of Macedonian power take on the eyes of the Greeks the appearance of a work of liberation for Hellas. What he most needed at this moment was not force but shrewd propaganda;and nobody lent himself to this purpose so effectively as the old Isocrates, venerable and disinterested, who offered his services of his own free will." [p.155][9] "Philip now had the problem of compelling the Athenians to recognize the Delphic resolutions aimed against Phocis; and he sent ambassadors to Athens, where strong opposition prevailed. However, with the Macedonian army only a few day's march from the Attic border and in good fighting trim, Athens was quite defenseless, and even Demosthenes advised submission." [p.157][10] "When Demosthenes draws up his list of Philip's transgressions, it includes his offense against the whole of Greece, not merely those against Athens; and Demosthenes' charge of unbecoming remissness is aimed at all the Greeks equally- their irresolution, and their failure to perceive their common cause." [p.171][11] "Therefore he (Demosthenes) urges them to send embassies everywhere to call the Greeks together--to assemble them, teach them, and exhort them; but the paramount need is to take the necessary steps themselves and thus perform their duty." [p.171][12] "In this appeal to the whole Greek world Demosthenes reached a decisive turning point in his political thought................He was still thoroughly rooted in Athens's governmental traditions, never overstepping the bounds of her classical balance-of-power policy for the interior of Greece. But the appearance of the mighty new enemy from beyond the Greek frontier now forced him to take a different track." [p.171-2][13] "Looking far beyond the actualities of the Greek world, hopelessly split asunder as it was, he (Isocrates) had envisaged a united nation led by the Macedonian king." [p.172][14] "Quite apart, however, from any theoretical doubts whether the nationalistic movement of modern times, which seeks to combine in a single state all the individuals of a single folk, can properly be compared with the Greek idea of Panhellenism, scholars have failed to notice that after the unfortunate Peace of Philocrates Demosthenes' whole policy was an unparalleled fight for national unification. In this period he deliberately threw off the constrains of the politician concerned exclusively with Athenian interests, and devoted himself to a task more lofty than any Greek statesman before him had ever projected or indeed could have projected. In this respect he is quite comparable to Isocrates; but an important point of contrast still remains. The difference is simply that Demosthenes did not think of this "unification" as a more or less voluntary submission to the will of the conqueror; on the contrary, he demanded a unanimous uprising of all the Greeks against the Macedonian foe." [p.172][15] "His Panhellenism was the outgrowth of a resolute will for national self-assertiveness, deliberately opposed to the national self-surrender called for by Isocrates - for that was what Isocrates' program had really meant, despite its being expressed romantically as a plan for a Persian war under Macedonian leadership." [p.172-3][16] "As the success of his appeal was to show, he was correct in his estimate of the actual political prospects of a really national uprising now that direct hostile pressure was felt. Since the days of the Persian wars Hellas had at no time been seriously endangered from without." [p.173][17] "The foe and the emergency [Macedon and its king Philip] had now appeared; and if the Greeks still had a spark of their fathers' sense of independence, the fate that was now overtaking them could not but bring them together. The Third Philippic is one mighty avowal of this brand of Panhellenism; and this is entirely Demosthenes' achievement." [p.173][18] "The task that confronted Demosthenes demanded utterly gigantic powers of improvisation; for the Greek people had not been making preparedness an end in itself for years as the enemy had done, and they also found it hard to adjust themselves spiritually to their new situation. In the Third Philippic Demosthenes' prime effort was to break down this spiritual resistance, and everything hinged on his success." [p.174][Greek people on one side, and the enemy on the other. Were Macedonians seen as Greeks by the ancient Greeks? Did the Greeks have the enemy from within their own kin? Were there some Greeks who were making preparations for a war, and other Greeks who were not? It is a clear no, since the Macedonians were not Greek][19] "Demosthenes speaks of embassies to be sent to the Peloponnesus, to Rhodes and Chios, and even to the king of Persia, to call for resistance against the conqueror." [p.177][Point of Interest] Greeks were sending embassies to the king of Persia to ally with them against the conqueror from the north - Macedonia and its king Philip. One needs not be a scholar to see through the lies propagated by today's Greeks when they claim that Macedonia was a part of Greece and Philip was their king. "It is an illusion to think that ancient Macedonians were Greeks". [Karagatsis - a Greek writer][20] Demosthenes' call for a national uprising was slowly gaining strength; Corinth and Achaea went over to the Athenian side, Messenia, Arcadia and Argos were won over and lined themselves behind the program. In March of the year 340 the treaty was formerly concluded at Athens. Even Athens and Thebes reconciled and joined his national program. "The true greatness of these achievements -- achievements for which the citizens of Athens honored Demosthenes with a golden crown at the Dionysia of 340 - was rightly appreciated by the ancient historians." [p.178][21] "If the Persian leaves us in the lurch and anything should happen to us, nothing will hinder Philip from attacking the Persian king." [Fourth Philippic] [p.181][22] "For historians of the old school, Greek history ended when the Greek states lost their political liberty; they looked upon it as a closed story, mounting to a heroic finish at Chaeronea." [p.188][23] "For if any non-Greek power, whether Persian or Macedonian, were to achieve world dominion, the typical form of the Greek state would suffer death and destruction." [p.188][24] "Anyone who had assured himself that Macedonian hegemony would lead to the inner unification of the Greeks, was bound to be disappointed. Philip surrounded Athens with four Macedonian garrisons placed at respectful distances, and left everything else to his supporters and agents in the cities." [p.191][25] The first resolution passed by Synedrion at Corinth was the declaration of war against Persia. "The difference was that this war of conquest, which was passionately described as a war of vengeance, was not looked upon as a means of uniting the Greeks, as Isocrates would have had it, but was merely an instrument of Macedonian imperialism." [p.192][26] "But although the Greek people thus came to play a uniquely influential role as pioneers of culture and, to that degree, as inheritors of the Macedonian empire, politically they had simply dropped out of the ranks of free peoples, even if Philip abstained from formally making Hellas a Macedonian province. The Greeks were themselves aware of this." [p.192][27] "Outwardly, the "autonomous" city-states kept their relations with Macedonia on a fairly strict level of rectitude. Inwardly, the time was one of dull pressure and smoldering distrust, flaring up to a bright flame at the least sign of any tremor or weakness in Macedonia's alien rule - for that is how her surveillance was generally regarded. This excruciating state of affairs continued as long as any hope remained. Only when the last ray of hope was exctinguished and the last uprising had met disaster, did quiet finally settle down upon Greece -- the quiet of the graveyard." [p.192][28] (Aeschines attempt to triumph over Demosthenes for the last and final round backfires with Demosthenes' heroics in "The Crown". Demosthenes at the end received the crown.) "But though Athens was powerless against the might of her Macedonian conqueror, she retained her independence of judgment and declared that no history could confute Demosthenes." [p.196][29] "Then when Alexander suddenly died in the flower of his age, and Greece rose again for the last time, Demosthenes offered his services and returned to Athens. But after winning a few brilliant successes, the Greeks lost their admirable commander Leosthenes on the field of battle; and his successors was slain at Crannon on the anniversary of Chaeronea; the Athenians then capitulated, and, under pressure of threats from Macedonia, suffered themselves to condemn to death the leader of the "revolt"." [p.196]Demosthenes died from a dose of poison on the island of Calauria, in the altar of Poseidon. Forty years later Athens honored him for eternity. Such was the destiny of a man whose ideals were his people, his country and their liberty. When modern Greeks dismiss him (in order to divert the stinging truth of his oratory) as a mere politician and his arousing oratory against Macedonia and the Macedonian conqueror as a political rhetoric, they, the modern Greeks, denounce the true Greek spirit, devoid of which, they, themselves, are.[30] "The dispute of modern scholars over the racial stock of the Macedonians have led to many interesting suggestions. This is especially true of the philological analysis of the remains of the Macedonian language by O. Hoffmann in his Makedonen etc. Cf. the latest general survey of the controversy in F. Geyer and his chapter on prehistory. But even if the Macedonians did have some Greek blood- as well as Illyrian- in their veins, whether originally or by later admixture, this would not justify us in considering them on a par with the Greeks in point of race or in using this as historical excuse for legitimizing the claims of this bellicose peasant folk to lord it over cousins in the south of the Balkan peninsula so far ahead of them in culture.It is likewise incorrect to assertthat this is the only way in which we can understand the role of the Macedonian conquest in Hellenizing the Orient. But we can neglect this problem here, as our chief interest lies in discovering what the Greeks themselves felt and thought. And here we need not cite Demosthenes' well-known statements; for Isocrates himself, the very man who heralds the idea of Macedonian leadership in Hellas, designates the people of Macedonia as members of an alien race in Phil.108. He purposely avoids the word [I]barbaroibut this word is one that inevitably finds a place for itself in the Greek struggle for national independence and expresses the views of every true Hellene. Even Isocrates would not care to have the Greeks ruled by the Macedonian people: it is only the king of Macedonia, Philip, who is to be the new leader; and the orator tries to give ethnological proof of Philip's qualifications for this task by the device of showing that he is no son of his people but, like the rest of his dynasty, a scion of Heracles, and therefore of Greek blood." [p.249] [Point of Interest](a) Macedonians cannot be considered as Greeks even if they had some Greek blood in their veins.(b) Macedonia's conquest of the Orient should not be contingent upon Greek culture.(c) Isocrates places the Macedonians with alien races and hitherto, outside the Hellenic world.(d) Isocrates takes care of this "alien race" not to be seen as leaders of Greece. He isolates their king Philip as not of the same race as the people over which he governs.Note: The speech On the Chersonese was, to be sure, delivered in a specifically Athenian emergency; but the interest of the Greeks as a whole is never left out of sight. The Third Philippic is entirely dedicated to the danger that threatens all Greece. Similarly, when the past and future are compared, it is the whole of Hellas that is considered, not Athens alone.Once again, it is not surprising that Jeager places the ancient Macedonians outside the Greek ethnic world. Fact is that when an author follows the writings of the ancient biographers it is almost impossible for anybody to come to a different conclusion.

RagnarofMacedon
08-06-19, 15:54
History of Macedonia
George Rawlinson M.A, Canon of Canterbury and Camden Professor of Ancient history at the University of Oxford
Ancient History of Chaldaea, Assyria, Media, Babylonia, Lydia, Phoenicia, Syria, Judaea, Egypt, Carthage, Persia, Greece, Macedonia, Parthia, and Rome., The Colonial Press, New York, 1899.
PART I (ca. B.C. 700 to B.C. 323)From the Commencement of the Monarchy to the Death of Alexander the Great http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/images/rawlinson.gifAccording to the tradition generally accepted by the Greeks, the Macedonian kingdom, which under Philip and Alexander attained to such extraordinary greatness, was founded by Hellenic emigrants from Argos. The Macedonians themselves were not Hellenes; they belonged to the barbaric races, not greatly differing from the Greeks in ethnic type, but far behind them in civilization, which bordered Hellas upon the north. They were a distinct race, not Paeonian, not Illyrian, not Thracian; but, of the three, their connection was closest with the Illyrians. The Argive colony, received hospitably, gradually acquired power in the region about Mount Bermius; and Perdiccas, one of the original emigrants, was (according to Herodotus) acknowledged as king. (Other writers mentioned three kings anterior to Perdiccas, whose joint reigns covered the space of about a century.) The period which follows is one of great obscurity, little being known of it but the names of the kings (p.164-165)