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how yes no 2
19-01-11, 22:17
There is obviously need for separate discussion about Macedonians.... who were ancient Macedonians...who are Macedonians of today?



Proof? because I can prove that they were bulgarians before WW2. There were macedonian dynasties during the eastern roman empire (Byzantine), like Basil the second, which fought and won against who they call their ansestors, czar samuel ect.

In all reality, this dispute isn't about what they call themselves, it's the territorial claims they make based on their imagined community. This is why Greece doesn't mind they use the term 'macedonia', as long as the is a prefix, like northern, Upper, New Macedonia ect, which distinuishes itself from the greek Macedonia. Bulgaria feels the same way and back greece on this.

stage is yours Elias...let's see your proof that Macedonians were Bulgarians before WW2... try to base your "proof" on credible historical sources....if any...

Elias2
19-01-11, 23:06
Go to your local library and take out the book The Macedonian Conflict Ethnic nationalism in a Transnational World by Loring M. Danforth. This book explains well about this certain situation. Again, this naming dispute isn't about the ancient Macedonians, who were greeks, its about land claims during the balkan wars. Some quotes;

"Competing claims to Macedonia put foward by Serbia, Bulgaria, and Greece, led to the outbreak of the balkan wars in 1912. Wach state attempted to legitimate its territorial claims with arguments concerning the naitonal consciousness, ethnic identity, linguistic affiliation, and religious loyalty of the inhabitants of the area."

"With the establishment of an independant Bulagrian church knows as the Exarchate in 1870, Greece and Bulgaria began to compete openly for the loyalties of the slavic-speaking population of Macedonia, who had either a greek or a bulgarian national consciousness."

"The interwar Serbian (and later Yugoslav) government attempted quite unseccessfully to "serbianize" the slavs of Yugoslav Macedonia, who generally defined themselves as bulgarian."

"During World War two, Tito and the leaders of the Yugoslav communist Party adopted a new policy toward teh slavs of Macedonia. They decided to create a new nationality, the 'macedonian' nationality and they established the ;Peoples republic of Macedonia" in what had previously been known as 'southern serbia' or 'the vardar Banovina'. It was at this time that the name "macedonian" first began to be used to denote a specific ethnic or national group"

If you don't trust this source for whatever reason there is teh Turkish Millet system of governance you could take a look at.

"The basis of the Ottoman censuses was the millet system (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Millet_%28Ottoman_Empire%29). People were assigned to ethnic categories according to religious affiliation. So all Sunni Muslims were categorised as Turks, all members of Greek Orthodox church as Greeks, while rest being divided between Bulgarian and Serb Orthodox churches.[/URL]" (wikipedia)

Ottoman census of Hilmi Pasha for the region of Macedonia (1906)

Muslims (Turks and Albanians) 423,000 (41.71%)
Greeks 259,000 (27.30%)
Bulgarians 178,000 (18.81%)
Serbs 13,150 (1.39%)
Others 73,000 (7.72%)


Encyclopaedia Britannica

The 1911 edition of the Encyclopædia Britannica gave the following statistical estimates about the population of Macedonia:


Bulgarians (described in encyclopaedia as "Slavs, the bulk of which is regarded by almost all independent sources as Bulgarians", a statement referring to the controversy between Bulgaria and Serbia as to the national affinities of the Slavs of Macedonia): ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim"]Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia#cite_note-Ortayli_2006_89-8-19) (called Pomaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks))
Turks: ca. 500,000 (Muslims)
Greeks: ca. 250,000, whereof ca. 240,000 Orthodox and 14,000 Muslims
Albanians: ca. 120,000, whereof 10,000 Orthodox and 110,000 Muslims
Vlachs: ca. 90,000 Orthodox and 3,000 Muslims
Jews: ca. 75,000
Roma: ca. 50,000, whereof 35,000 Orthodox and 15,000 Muslims

In total 1,300,000 Christians (almost exclusively Orthodox), 800,000 Muslims, 75,000 Jews, a total population of ca. 2,200,000 for the whole of Macedonia.




My conclusion, to think this "name dispute" is about the ancient macedonians is partly false. This is about the events that happened form teh balkan war until today. The anceint macedonians were draged into this dispute because they were the originators of the name macedonian.


Alexander Quote:
If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_civilization), to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope). But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles), and emulate Perseus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus), and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus), the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Hellenes should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos…

As quoted in "On the Fortune of Alexander" by Plutarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch), 332 a-b

Elias2
19-01-11, 23:21
Independent sources in Europe between 1878 and 1918 generally tended to view the Slavic population of Macedonia in two ways: as Bulgarians and as Macedonian Slavs. German scholar Gustav Weigand (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Weigand) was one of the most prominent representatives of the first trend with the books Ethnography of Macedonia (1924, written 1919) and partially with The Aromanians (1905). The author described all ethnic groups living in Macedonia, showed empirically the close connection between the western Bulgarian dialects and the Macedonian dialects and defined the latter as Bulgarian. The International Commission constituted by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carnegie_Endowment_for_International_Peace) in 1913 to inquire into causes and conduct of the Balkan Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_Wars) also talked about the Slavs of Macedonia as about Bulgarians in its report published in 1914. The Commission had eight members from Great Britain, France, Austria-Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary), Germany, Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and the United States.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/eb/Ethnicturkey1911.jpg/300px-Ethnicturkey1911.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnicturkey1911.jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnicturkey1911.jpg)
Ethnic groups in the Balkans and Asia Minor as of the early 20th Century (William R. Shepherd, Historical Atlas, 1911).


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/bc/Distribution_Of_Races_1918_National_Geographic.jpg/300px-Distribution_Of_Races_1918_National_Geographic.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_Of_Races_1918_National_Geographi c.jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_Of_Races_1918_National_Geographi c.jpg)
Distribution of races in the Balkan Peninsula and Asia Minor in 1918 (National Geographic)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/3/3f/Distribution_of_Races_on_the_Balkans_in_1922_Hammo nd.png/300px-Distribution_of_Races_on_the_Balkans_in_1922_Hammo nd.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_of_Races_on_the_Balkans_in_1922_ Hammond.png) http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Distribution_of_Races_on_the_Balkans_in_1922_ Hammond.png)
Distribution of races in the Balkan Peninsula and Asia Minor in 1922, Racial Map Of Europe by Hammond & Co.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/c9/Ethnographical_Map_of_Central_and_South_Eastern_Eu rope_-_The_War_Office_1916%2C_London.jpg/300px-Ethnographical_Map_of_Central_and_South_Eastern_Eu rope_-_The_War_Office_1916%2C_London.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnographical_Map_of_Central_and_South_Easte rn_Europe_-_The_War_Office_1916,_London.jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ethnographical_Map_of_Central_and_South_Easte rn_Europe_-_The_War_Office_1916,_London.jpg)
Ethnographical Map of Central and Southeastern Europe - The War Office (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_War_Office&action=edit&redlink=1), 1916, London.


The term "Macedonian Slavs" was used by scholars and publicists in three general meanings:


as a politically convenient term to define the Slavs of Macedonia without offending Serbian and Bulgarian nationalism;
as a distinct group of Slavs different from both Serbs and Bulgarians, yet closer to the Bulgarians and having predominantly Bulgarian ethnical and political affinities;
as a distinct group of Slavs different from both Serbs and Bulgarians having no developed national consciousness and no fast ethnical and political affinities (the definition of Cvijic).

An instance of the use of the first meaning of the term was, for example, the ethnographic map of the Slavic peoples published in (1890) by Russian scholar Zarjanko, which identified the Slavs of Macedonia as Bulgarians. Following an official protest from Serbia the map was later reprinted identifying them under the politically correct name "Macedonian Slavs".
The term was used in a completely different sense by British journalist Henry Brailsford (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Brailsford) in Macedonia, its races and their future (1906). The book contains Brailford's impressions from a five-month stay in Macedonia shortly after the suppression of the Ilinden Uprising and represents an ethnographic report. Brailford defines the dialect of Macedonia as neither Serbian, nor Bulgarian, yet closer to the second one. An opinion is delivered that any Slavic nation could "win" Macedonia if it is to use the needed tact and resources, yet it is claimed that the Bulgarians have already done that. Brailsford uses synonymously the terms "Macedonian Slavs" and "Bulgarians", the "Slavic language" and the "Bulgarian language". The chapter on the Macedonians Slavs/the Bulgarians is titled the "Bulgarian movement", the IMRO activists are called "Bulgarophile Macedonians".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographic_history_of_Macedonia

how yes no 2
19-01-11, 23:26
I cannot verify all this data, but I believe you that quotations are correctly transferred from those sources to this thread... however, it is questionable whether it can be the case that sources whom you quote were assuming Bulgarian identity of Macedonians where there was none...

I will focus just on this part of the citation



Bulgarians (described in encyclopaedia as "Slavs, the bulk of which is regarded by almost all independent sources as Bulgarians", a statement referring to the controversy between Bulgaria and Serbia as to the national affinities of the Slavs of Macedonia): ca. 1,150,000, whereof, 1,000,000 Orthodox and 150,000 Muslims (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim) (called Pomaks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomaks))

if they are not directly named Bulgarians there was clear reason for that... in my opinion reason was that their self identity was mostly not Bulgarian, and that is what matters in issues of nationality - identity...

analysts tend to see them as Bulgarians because their language is similar to Bulgarian...however, language is not crucial part of self-identity... look at Serbs and Croats...practically same language (while Macedonian and Bulgarian are really different languages although similar), but two nations... try saying to Croat that he is Serb...or to Serb that he is Croat...

imagine that you are Greek who lives in Turkey and your Greek sounds Turkish... in my viewpoint that does not stop you to see yourself as Greek... I can listen to your good Turkish and bad Greek and claim you are Turk, but if you see yourself as Greek, than you are Greek no matter what anyone else thinks..right?

same is here... Macedonia was occupied by Bulgarians in big part of early medieval period.. naturally their language is somewhat closer to Bulgarian than to Serbian...but language does not make self-identity..



My conclusion, to think this "name dispute" is about the ancient macedonians is partly false. This is about the events that happened form teh balkan war until today. The anceint macedonians were draged into this dispute because they were the originators of the name macedonian.


sure, but issue is that it is not really clear whether ancient Macedonians are really Greeks, as there are clues that they were not... and if they were not Greeks, than there is no reason for Greece to claim name Macedonia, is there?

Elias2
19-01-11, 23:59
By all means if there are clues please post them! because all historical written and archeaological evidence points to them being Hellenic peoples. Hellenic people, or the contemporary termenology greeks, are a cultrual grouping, an ethos, rather than a ethnic identity.

On your point what they thought of themselves, more quotes form the book The Macedonian Conflict Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World; pgs. 63-64

"Finally, Krste Misirkov, who had clearly developed a strong sense of his own personal national identity as a macedonian and who outspekenly and umambiguously called for macedonian linguistic and national separatism, achnowledged that a macedonian national identity was a relatively recent historical developemtn. In On Macedonian Matters, published in 1903, Misirkov, referring to himself and other slavs of macedonia in the first person plural, admits repeatedly that "our fathers, grandfathers, and great-grandfathers have always been called bulgarian" and that "in the past we have even called ouselves bulgarians" He describes "the emergence of the macedonians as a seperate slav people as a "perfectly normal historical process which is quite in keeping with the process by which the bulgarian, croatian and serbian peoples emerged from the south slav group"

"The political and military leaders of the slavs of macedonia at teh turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as bulgarians rather than macedonians. The political goals of the internal macedonian Revolutionary organization (VMRO) were the liberation of macedonia from the Ottoman Empire, and the establishment of an autonomous Macedonia, but VMRO's leadership was challenged by the formation of the supreme macedonian comittee in Sofia, whose ultimate foal was the annexation of macedonian by Bulgaria. Inspite of these political differences, both groups, including those who advocated an independent macedonian state and opposed the idea of a greater bulgaria, never seem to have doubted "the predominantly bulgarian character of the population of Macedonia". Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de guerre was Ahil (achilles), refers to "the slavs of macadonia as 'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention". In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply "we are bulgarians".

Elias2
20-01-11, 00:01
I kept to the point when references sources to use authors that are not Greeks or slav-macedonians, for we know they are usually filled with propaganda in one way or another. Now I couldn't care less what they called themselves, but they cannot monopolize the macedonian name and try to tear it apart from its hellenic past. Greeks in the province of greece often call themselves macedonian, I have relatives from that area that moved 40 years ago to canada I talk to tell me they never heard anyone call themselves macedonian as a separate national identity from Greeks.


http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://img223.imageshack.us/img223/1641/liberationofmacedoniaposter2rl.png&imgrefurl=http://www.macedoniaontheweb.com/forum/anti-greek-macedonia-propaganda/405-contemporary-greek-use-name-macedonia-most-ill-conceived-skopjian-lie.html&usg=__AESuRVpGuO58y924ikBq17Kxp2A=&h=303&w=399&sz=255&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=y1o-m9X5EbEwiM:&tbnh=162&tbnw=211&ei=52M3TdT2BYPbgQf1p_WtAw&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dvictory%2Bposter%2Bbalkan%2Bwar%2Bgre ece%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih %3D645%26tbs%3Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=144&oei=52M3TdT2BYPbgQf1p_WtAw&esq=1&page=1&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0&tx=74&ty=61

how yes no 2
20-01-11, 00:20
By all means if there are clues please post them! because all historical written and archeaological evidence points to them being Hellenic peoples. Hellenic people, or the contemporary termenology greeks, are a cultrual grouping, an ethos, rather than a ethnic identity.

culturally, I remember reading about Macedonian king who was not allowed to participate in Olympic Games as he was classified as non-Greek...I can search for more data about that...

genetically, area of ancient Macedonia is quite different from the rest of Greece... most of all because ancient Macedonia is much reacher in R1a than all nearby Slavic countries..R1a in Macedonia, Serbia and Bosnia is according to Klyosov ancient old, much older R1a than in east Europe and Asia, all this points out that R1a hotspot found there was not made by recent Slavic settlement, but was there for long time in history... I2a2 and G are also significantly increased in areas of ancient Macedonia... but it is not provable that they were there before Slavic settlements... in fact, I believe that early Slavs were I2a2 people....while east Europe R1a are assimilated remains of Scythians...

I can accept that ancient Macedonians (and other Dorians?) were hellenized, but I do not believe they were really Greeks when they appeared in history...



I kept to the point when references sources to use authors that are not Greeks or slav-macedonians, for we know they are usually filled with propaganda in one way or another. Now I couldn't care less what they called themselves, but they cannot monopolize the macedonian name and try to tear it apart from its hellenic past. Greeks in the province of greece often call themselves macedonian, I have relatives from that area that moved 40 years ago to canada I talk to tell me they never heard anyone call themselves macedonian as a separate national identity from Greeks.

thing is they never really had another name... some Slav tribes settled in Macedonia, mixed with previous inhabitants...I guess language shift happened...and they were called Macedonians due to living in Macedonia... it is not true that they are called Macedonians since WW2...in Serbia we have always called them Macedonians... issue is that we saw that as geographical origin, same as we have Hercegovci (from Hercegovina), Dalmatinci (as being from Dalmatia and not as being same as Illyrian Dalmatea), Crnogorci (from Montenegro), Bosanci (as being from Bosnia and not as national identity...Bosniak as national identity is introduced only during media war in 90s to create illusion of being autochtonous to Bosnia muslims, same as name Kosovar is invented).... those were seen as geographical identities inside same people....but in 90s it turned out that some of those people developed national identity out of geographical identity

Elias2
20-01-11, 00:35
Ancient greek politics were as confusing as politics are today :) The macedons did end up participating in the olympics later on. I understand the idea that before they were hellenized they might of been something else, and probably were, but the macedonian character was born out of them being hellenized, a baptism as you will. As soon as you try to take away the greek character they stop being macedonian, and revert to that 'something else'.

I don't mind debating this, but you have to understand that the current political "name dispute" between Greece adn FYROM started from the balkan wars and not from classical greece.

how yes no 2
20-01-11, 00:41
Ancient greek politics were as confusing as politics are today :) The macedons did end up participating in the olympics later on. I understand the idea that before they were hellenized they might of been something else, and probably were, but the macedonian character was born out of them being hellenized, a baptism as you will. As soon as you try to take away the greek character they stop being macedonian.

I don't mind debating this, but you have to understand that the current political "name dispute" between Greece adn FYROM started from the balkan wars and not from classical greece.

I understand it is sensible political issue....
as if you give them right to use name Macedonians, they might claim north Greece one day...

on other hand, it is hard for them to change name they used for themselves for centuries... some of them will rather believe that they do origin from ancient Macedonians, while just small group of Slavs migrated and settled among them... and it is not easy to know what was ratio between newcomers and old people... maybe genetics can help there, but its not easy...
e.g. suppose that they origin 80% from previous inhabitans and 20% from Slavic settlers... would they in that case, in your opinion, have right to call themselves Macedonians? where is the limit? 50%? or is it about language and culture not about origin? but if it is about language and culture, do we really know what was the language of ordinary middle and low class ancient Macedonians...

Elias2
20-01-11, 01:35
e.g. suppose that they origin 80% from previous inhabitans and 20% from Slavic settlers... would they in that case, in your opinion, have right to call themselves Macedonians? where is the limit? 50%? or is it about language and culture not about origin? but if it is about language and culture, do we really know what was the language of ordinary middle and low class ancient Macedonians...

In my humble opinion, I don't care if they call themselves macedonians, it just bothers me when I hear things like macedonians have nothing to do with greeks, they were never hellenic, just these nationalistic rhetoric. Sometimes people just have to face the facts of history, no matter how uncomforting they are. I think for most greeks, to answer your question, its the latter of the two. I want to see this stupid conflict over with, I think relations between greece and FYROM will improve greatly when they come to a compromise. This whole thing is rather embarassing to have gotten this far.

how yes no 2
20-01-11, 01:54
In my humble opinion, I don't care if they call themselves macedonians, it just bothers me when I hear things like macedonians have nothing to do with greeks, they were never hellenic, just these nationalistic rhetoric. Sometimes people just have to face the facts of history, no matter how uncomforting they are. I think for most greeks, to answer your question, its the latter of the two. I want to see this stupid conflict over with, I think relations between greece and FYROM will improve greatly when they come to a compromise. This whole thing is rather embarassing to have gotten this far.

yes, it is definitely stupid conflict.....

things are never black and white... and in this case it is clear that both sides have strong arguments regarding the name....

perhaps people in Balkan should try to learn to find what connects them and not what sets them apart....

e.g. why not seeing ancient Macedonians as somewhat shared legacy...

as ancient Macedonians have been hellenic, at least their elite, and likely also the people in last stage...

while Macedonians of today are likely to somewhat origin from previous inhabitants and thus also from ancient Macedonians....

it is up to politicians to try to find some compromise...

Regulus
20-01-11, 01:56
There is obviously need for separate discussion about Macedonians.... who were ancient Macedonians...who are Macedonians of today?




stage is yours Elias...let's see your proof that Macedonians were Bulgarians before WW2... try to base your "proof" on credible historical sources....if any...

That was a good idea. Well done.

Regulus
20-01-11, 02:26
I don't want this to cause the thread to go off-topic, but in light of the Bulgarians being discussed in this picture, I thought that some information on the origins of that group should be added.

The region in which Bulgaria sits has been inhabited by many peoples.
The ones that were there prior to the arrival of the Huns I will leave for discussion.

After the German uprising, in which the Gepids assumed leadership, inflicted a crushing defeat on the Huns, the remnants of these people left most of their possessions and settled in modern-day Bulgaria. The empire had fallen apart both by this battle and the earlier death of Attila. He had too many sons who fought against each other. These groups, one of which I can remember was the Sabrians, along with two others eventually came to be called Bulgars and ruled this area. This nation became slavicized following the Slavic migrations and lost its connection with the Hunnish language etc. It is today rightly considered a Slavic country.

The history of Bulgaria and its Empire is well known. One thing that must be remembered is that, if the Bulgarians are to be included in a discussion on whom the Macedonians of old were, the Bulgarians themselves have a very complex origin. Consequently, there can be no simple answer in drawing a connection between Bulgarians and Macedonians unless we specify Modern day Macedonians.

Garrick
20-01-11, 04:01
I don't want this to cause the thread to go off-topic, but in light of the Bulgarians being discussed in this picture, I thought that some information on the origins of that group should be added.

The region in which Bulgaria sits has been inhabited by many peoples.
The ones that were there prior to the arrival of the Huns I will leave for discussion.

After the German uprising, in which the Gepids assumed leadership, inflicted a crushing defeat on the Huns, the remnants of these people left most of their possessions and settled in modern-day Bulgaria. The empire had fallen apart both by this battle and the earlier death of Attila. He had too many sons who fought against each other. These groups, one of which I can remember was the Sabrians, along with two others eventually came to be called Bulgars and ruled this area. This nation became slavicized following the Slavic migrations and lost its connection with the Hunnish language etc. It is today rightly considered a Slavic country.

The history of Bulgaria and its Empire is well known. One thing that must be remembered is that, if the Bulgarians are to be included in a discussion on whom the Macedonians of old were, the Bulgarians themselves have a very complex origin. Consequently, there can be no simple answer in drawing a connection between Bulgarians and Macedonians unless we specify Modern day Macedonians.

Regulus
Haplogroups of todays Macedonians are similar Serbian.

Ok in Serbia is more strongly expressed I (nearly 48%) while in Macedonia E (over 24%) is a stronger than in Serbia but this is probably because of the large Albanian minority, which accounts for 25% of the population in that country.

Nearly many Serbs once spoke the language very similar to today's standard Macedonian, and many Macedonians spoke language very similar todays Serbian, just standardization two languages has made to similar forms slowly forget.

If someone really studied non-political background is likely to determine the current population of the country whose official name of FYROM is actually originating from Serbs, not Bulgarian, but in my opinion, people can identify themselves as they wish, only Bulgarians have no right to be claim to.

Personally I regret that there is a conflict with Greece, and I think it's partly political, and that the Macedonian leadership to be more flexible, but it is my individual opinion, I like Skoplje and other places and often I was there.

Regulus
20-01-11, 04:23
Regulus

but in my opinion, people can identify themselves as they wish, only Bulgarians have no right to be claim to.




I would agree with this. I had noted a number of references about Bulgarians in this case and thought that some of it should be addressed.

iapetoc
20-01-11, 04:41
The history of Bulgaria and its Empire is well known. One thing that must be remembered is that, if the Bulgarians are to be included in a discussion on whom the Macedonians of old were, the Bulgarians themselves have a very complex origin. Consequently, there can be no simple answer in drawing a connection between Bulgarians and Macedonians unless we specify Modern day Macedonians.

THAT IS CORRECT REGULUS

the Makedonians as we all know from ancient is Sub-Greek nation as Iones lakedaimonioi, magna grecani, Pontioi (euxeinus pontus), Cretans etc

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg

that is the central Argead Makedonia started from Holy Dion (where Hercules climb olymp)
Makednos, son of Hercules, and his sons, with help botieans push Pieri a thracian tribe to east and took their lands and establish a kingom, in AIGES (goats), later unite with Aeolians of West Makedonia, to a consultant Kingdom alliance (kings and 1 king to rule the kings) simmilar to mycenae system, Alexander was stoped but he's father Phillip took place in Olympic games as also Amyntas,
and Amyntas unite all, makedonians always expand until Phillip II took almost Greece and half Thrace,
as I say that has to do With Greek Makedonia as a region and also A NATION

later when Romans came they name Makedonia the area even to illyria and dardania,
but does that state makes Dardanians Makedonians?????????
NO WAY, Before kossyfo war, Kossyfo was in Yugoslavia, But WAS YUGOSLAVIA A NATION??????
today Basques are in Spain BUT ARE THEY CASTIGLIANNI????
WHEN INDIA WAS UNDER BRITISH EMPIRE WHERE INDIANS BRITISH?
NO WAY
so today Bulgarian people living in Skopje are they makedonians cause a Roman officer named a territory Makedonia????
NO WAY
ANOTHER NATION,
THE ROMAN PROVINCE OF MAKEDONIA WAS NOT AN ETHNICAL STATE,
SO DONT TELL ME A MAKEDONIAN THAT YOU ARE BROTHER TO ME CAUSE WE LIVE IN A AREA WHERE A THIRD NAMED AFTER THE NAME I GIVE TO MY NATION,

GERMANY IS GERMANY CAUSE GERMANS LIVE THERE
POLLAND IS NAMED CAUSE POLLANDS LIVE THERE
MAKEDONIA IS WHERE MAKEDONIANS LIVE AND NOT BULGARIANS,
WE DONT WANT TO UNITE TO STATE THAT A ROMAN BAPTISE BECAUSE IT WAS EASY HIM
WE HAVE OUR ANCIENT BROTHERS

Go FIND YOUR BROTHERS THE BULGARIANS,
AND UNITE WITH THEM TO A BIG BULGARIA


TRUE MAKEDONIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM
sais that kick away the none Greeks (barbarians with the original meaning, not the english version)

so inhabiting in russia does not make you a russian
how much inhabiting in Paeonia and name your self a makedonian

out of mind,

i am a mogol invader to korea, and i claim i am chinese, !!!!!!!!!

ALL THE MAPS YOU ARE SHOWING ARE ROMAN TIMES, NOT MAKEDONIAN TIMES,
CAUSE IF THE ROMANS BAPTISE YOU MAKEDONIAN< I DONT ACCEPT IT
OK PAEONIAN OR BULGARIAN OR SLAVIAN

MAKEDONIA IS ONE AND CREATED AND WAS AND IS AND WILL BE GREEK,

Now i dont care about joseph Bross Tito bullshit,
you are an indipendent nation, we dont claim nothing from you, we treat very nice,
for your thievery, BUT IT IS TIME TO GIVE US OUR NAME BACK,
WE DONT WANT YOUR LANDS, YOU WANT OURS, SO GET LOST WE NEVER SHOW AND NEVER WANTED TO GO TO SKOPJE YOU WANT TO TAKE OUR LANDS
MOLON LAVE
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

it is you that say Thessaloniki Alexanders sister solunu and want to conquer
we never said skopjie is greek
so get lost nazi
even Yane Sandanski was a bulgarian, Friend of the Turks you have same heroes,
Alexander is ours,

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/23/August_30_1909_The_Cedar_Rapids_Evening_Gazette-Sandanski.jpg

We have suffer enough of you, but we don't give in,

we revolt many times and got free from turks before you
so bye bye


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/BattleofIssus333BC-mosaic-detail1.jpg



THAT HORSE HAD A NAME ΒΟΥΚΕΦΑΛΑΣ

Not Bolglavata

Regulus
20-01-11, 05:29
My opinion is the following, with slight editing from first post on other thread:

Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks. They spoke it, lived it, and we can find no ethnic difference between them and other Greeks. I believe that they were a branch of Dorians, a people who also were viewed in a not-so-great light when they threw out the Achaeans long before. There possibly may have been some admixture from some others peoples but I think that Dorian Greeks were the majority.
It was not uncommon for some elitist Athenians to pretend to have difficulty distinguishing Macedonians from other Greeks, but it is more than safe so say that they knew better and did this to try to minimize Macedonian influence in Greece, which rapidly gained speed.

Slavs moved into the Balkans after the East and West Goths migrated to their respective destinations. After the depopulation of certain areas in the Balkans from those conflicts (and subsequent Avar destruction later) the time was ripe for a new and vigorous people to move in. We call these southern Slavs. The Slavs reach the Balkans in their migration by late fifth to sixth century CE. I hold that is acceptable for some of these people to refer to themselves as Macedonians. The problem occurs if they lay claim to the achievements of ancient Macedonians.

It is common to refer to those who now live in Rome as Romans, even though few can say with certainty that their families go back in that city to the days of the Roman republic. We would make no effort to sort out those who moved in last year or in 1850 and tell them that they cannot be called Romans. We just know that the terms mean different things for different time periods.

iapetoc
20-01-11, 06:52
yes but romans name and built roma,
but GREEK MAKEDONIA AND ANCIENT MAKEDONIA IS DIFFERENT THAN ROMAN,

hmmm let say it else,

since you are from the big one country,

Apache lived in texas, IS ANYBODY WHITE AN APACHE?
since you live in colorado? ARE YOU A NAVAHO?
no way
NEW MEXICO RESIDENTS ARE THEY MEXICANS?

the place they live was never Makedonian lands, the qonceuror name the area 3 times bigger than the origin

why usa say NEW MEXICO and not mexico
why canadians say Nova scotia

DOES AN APACHE ALLOW YOU TO CLAIM THAT YOU ARE THE APACHE? AND JERONYMO WAS YOUR FATHER???

or if you migrate from spain to USA AND THEN Nevada you became a Navaho????
the new Mexico people via wars via agreements i dont know american history
is like to tell that conqistadores when lived in Santa Elisabeta became Indians,

or if i live among ammies - quakers i am a quaker,

THIS IS NOT ABOUT A PASSPORT OR AN ID,

THIS IS PAEONIANS OR BULGARIANS CHANGE NAME TO MAKEDONIANS WHEN MAKEDONIANS EXIST. AND CLAIM TO LIBERTY ME THE MAKEDONIAN FROM MY SHELF

THEY WILL COME TO RESCUE ME FROM MY SELF,

I TOLD IS UNTHINKABLE
A BULGARIAN WHO LIVES IN PAEONIA TO SAY I M MAKEDON AND I WILL LIBERATED MAKEDONIANS FROM THE MAKEDONIANS,

does this make sence?

besides who among them is makedonian

25 % albanians 15 % serbs 10 turks and 45% bulgarians and 5 % others
and US army i forgot,

let them changes their names
cause its a casus beli,
simply we dont raise the glove
we dont want to have the borders that roman suggest we have our own via centuries
AND BLOOD GREEK BLOOD,

the fact that you immigrate to america does make you an navaho, but an american citizen

besides colombus named it WEST INDIES by mistake and ignorant,

the one lives in AmERIcA is HE AN INDIAN (from india) BECAUSE COLOMBUS NAME IT LIKE THIS??????

how do you like that
Columbus found west Indies So according to colombus YOU ARE AN INDIAN (from india) AND NOT AN AMERICAN
is that fair to you?
besides
according the map of alexander syria is Greek
because greek occupied it for hundrends of years Syria is Greek,
if i put a map of Big MAKEDONIA-GREECE that proves that syria was greek ones does that make syria greek?
before 1948 israel did not exist,
what does that mean? israelis are palestinians?
pakistan was also india when british empire
is it ???
the subject is not political,
it is like unite 2 different nations or 3 if we also put albanians that live in Fyrom
just to make a state according the area that roman baptise,
IS THERE MORE STUPIDITY??????
like bosna and bagna luka, do you believe in the future they dont fight?
even belgium today is to be in thinking of cut to 2 vallon and flamand
which is a many years kingdom
no way man,
unthinkable
besides here in greece we all know that war is upon us now,
after yugoslavia its our turn,
but still have the hope and the honor to fight,
soon the big war will start in balcans bigger than yugoslavia i suppose although i m not sure,

Regulus
20-01-11, 15:45
Iapetoc, I think that you may have misunderstood my position.

To summarize it as briefly as possible, I differentiate between ancient/classical Macedonians and Modern-day Macedonians.

I believe that ancient Macedonians were mostly Dorian Greeks.

I would say that modern-day Macedonians are primarily of Slavic descent.

Both groups had languages and culture corresponding to their respective group.

My point was that it does not have to be a problem if people from Macedonia today using that name as long as they do not also claim to be the same as ancient Macedonians. The region called Calabria in Italy has been in two different locations in that country in ancient and modern day. The region referred to as Macedonia today is much closer to that of ancient Macedonia, if not overlapping it.

iapetoc
20-01-11, 18:02
I would say that modern-day Macedonians are primarily of Slavic descent.

thank you regulus,
YOU HAVE JUST MAKE ME A SLAV.
WOW THANK YOU,

YOU DON'T UNDERSTAND, HOW YOU NAME MAKEDONIAN WHEN ANOTHER MAKEDONIAN EXISTS?

IT IS LIKE ME TELLING YOU INDIAN
OR CALL YOU A MEXICAN
IS IT OK WITH YOU????

THESE PEOPLES ARE SLAVS, THEY KILL AND BURN MAKEDONIAN VILLAGES EVEN AT WW2,
THEY HAVE A LAND AND CLAIM MAKEDONIAN BECAUSE A TURK OR ROMAN IMBECILE draw borders as he like,

that area has a war from 600AD,
the balkan wars lasted from 1904-1916.
in WW2 also same happened,

I BELIEVE THAT THE BEST IS TO CUT TO 3
1 tettovo to albania
2 strumnitsa to bulgaria
3 kumanovo to serbia

or if they want to stay as a state better change their name,
I DONT GIVE MY NATIONAL IDENTITY TO ANYONE,

IT IS LIKE USA And manhattan
IS THE ONE WHO LIVED IN MANHATTAN A LEPANE INDIAN????

you live in New jersey,
DOES THAT MAKE YOU A MANTAES or a NARATICONCK?????
european colonists or conquerors make bordes as they like,
But did they took the nationality of locals?
dont think so,

THEN WHY I WILL GIVE MY NATIONALITY TO ANOTHER NATION???

the fact you live in america does not make you a american native,

Regulus
20-01-11, 18:44
Iapetoc,

I did not make you to be anything.

The thread was created to provide a place where the information and conclusions can be dicussed. It was not created so that all will agree 100% with any particular person.

I don't what else I am supposed to say. This thread will contain posts from many individuals who disagree with you on far more points of this issue than I do. The only point of mine with which you seem to have a problem is that I allow the name Macedonian to indicate two different things for two different eras.

iapetoc
20-01-11, 19:35
leaving in An area named Delaware by Usaers , does not make you a delaware, when delaware nation exist,

all the rest is imperialistic propaganda of gun industry, and politicians wgho gain by war,

I still dont understanded what the fyromians will earn by that?

only hate and wars

BESIDES EVERY BODY KNOWS THAT THEY ARE FAKE MAKEDONIANS.

AND CLAIMING AS BEFORE THAT MODERN MAKEDONIANS ARE SLAVS YOU JUST MAKE ME A SLAV,

CAUSE I M A MODERN MAKEDONIAN

the makedonia that catherin2 was dreamingas also some others bulgarians after 1876,
and today some politicks, will never be exist,
only by force,
we shall not admit to a state of 3 nations, cause that was roman then british, Russian and today USA politic,
to create states that are not 1 nation but many,
we have our problems, we don't want inserted ones by others who want to divine and conquer

and what language will have the state that fyromians claim?
bulgarian? Greek? cause there is no Makedonian language,
only an ancient Greek dialect
and only a today mixed bulgarian dialect?
so create problem with lingua
which will be the prime minister?
a Fyrom or a Greek?
which will the national anthem?
the greek makedonian or the fyrom one?

you see we dont need to enter that bullshit,
simply find a name for them, without stealing my name
and co-existance

what are you trying to do people, a new 2 lingua switzerland in balkans?
or a state like belgium?

since as you say they are slavs let them name their country as yugo-slavia
or zapad-bulgaria or VestBulgaria, Paeonia, Bardaska, albano-slavia, J B TITOnia. Sandaskya
Nova-slavia, Central-Balkania, etc
the name i accept with mak in it
is PSEUDO-MAKEDONIA

AND I M NOT A SLAV
CAUSE I AM MAKEDONIAN

Regulus
20-01-11, 20:34
I will not keep stating my point over and over. The "all or none" method of debate does not invite discussion or encourage others to join in.
At some point you are going to want to defer or concede to some points made by others, especially when doing so does not hurt the substance of your own argument. I know that nothing I mentioned would make those that have opposed you here happy with me, so I don't know why you need to be so upset by mere peripheral points.

Michael Folkesson
20-01-11, 21:14
iapetoc

I agree that there is a conflict of definition that should fall out in favor of the Greek Macedonian region. But is this really as important an issue as people are making it?

Still, the area seem to be part of historic Macedonia, and they identify themselves as Macedonians which seem to be accepted by most of the world. Would Upper Macedonia be a better name? Whatever one does they will still call themselves Macedonian.

It can be twisted and turned and somehow everyone in this naming conflict is right one way or another. Why not accept these people as Macedonian by geography.

Elias2
20-01-11, 21:38
vardaska macedonia or vardar macedonia does have a nice ring to it

how yes no 2
20-01-11, 21:48
vardaska macedonia or vardar macedonia does have a nice ring to it

Vardarska Makedonija or Vardar Macedonia

sounds as a good compromise to me... it keeps name Macedonia so that Macedonians from FYRM are not forced to change their self-identity... and it also suggest that it is a specific area within larger area called Macedonia...

was it ever proposed by some of the sides in conflict?

Elias2
20-01-11, 22:03
I know greece is looking for a compromise but FYROM won't have any of it. There is another round of negotiations 9th of febuary in New York, maybe they will have a breakthrough.

iapetoc
20-01-11, 22:41
the fact is that none of populations wants a war,
except some stupid extra nationalists

many years now FYROMians came at summer time here,
the old time greeks went to ochrid and skopjie, (me 2 times)
and only some stupids push the subject,

but it is a problem. both people know that are different, but althought each blames or curses the other, NO kills no Terrorism (bombs) happened.
only legal demonstrations, we live in peace,

BUT WE ARE TOTALLY DIFFERENT
our heroes are the devils for them,
and also their heroes are the devils for us.

and about ancient Makedonian Language look at

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria)

the man wrote a lexicon before the problem,

Garrick
21-01-11, 01:52
vardaska macedonia or vardar macedonia does have a nice ring to it

Vardarska Macedonia is probably better name than North or Upper Macedonia, but it is evident that a solution must be found, but nobody will be able to wait forever.

The part of the problem is the current nationalist elites in Macedonia FYROM and they certainly has more flexible negotiators compared with the current.

LeBrok
21-01-11, 04:01
So what if Macedonia calls itself just Macedonia? Greeks are going to start a war to take the name away?!
They start economic sanctions? There are so many countries to trade with these days. There would be no economic effect at all.
I'll say take the name Macedonia, get over with it, and we have fewer stupid issues to discuss.
If Greeks are playing hard ball, I'd call Macedonia "Greece Superior" or "Pikna Grecia" just to play a hard ball, and see what they would do. They would probably waste a year in parliament to figure out what to do with it, without a solution of course.

I have Greek friends, and like Greece a lot, but this issue of Macedonia name is ridiculous.

Elias2
21-01-11, 06:19
So what if Macedonia calls itself just Macedonia? Greeks are going to start a war to take the name away?!
They start economic sanctions? There are so many countries to trade with these days. There would be no economic effect at all.
I'll say take the name Macedonia, get over with it, and we have fewer stupid issues to discuss.
If Greeks are playing hard ball, I'd call Macedonia "Greece Superior" or "Pikna Grecia" just to play a hard ball, and see what they would do. They would probably waste a year in parliament to figure out what to do with it, without a solution of course.

I have Greek friends, and like Greece a lot, but this issue of Macedonia name is ridiculous.

If you take that stance you are promoting more conflict in the balkans and not solving it.

LeBrok
21-01-11, 08:39
My point was that the conflict for the name of the country is the most ridiculous of all. People in Greece should be smarter than this, and just let it go.
For the time being people of Balkans are picking the smallest reason to divide and segregate than to find any to unite the Balkans.
Other than that Greece should concentrate on solving big economic and social problems in Greece than dick around with who is worthy of Macedonia name.

iapetoc
21-01-11, 15:43
My point was that the conflict for the name of the country is the most ridiculous of all. People in Greece should be smarter than this, and just let it go.
For the time being people of Balkans are picking the smallest reason to divide and segregate than to find any to unite the Balkans.
Other than that Greece should concentrate on solving big economic and social problems in Greece than dick around with who is worthy of Macedonia name.


hmmm not well informed,
1 if the ancient Macedonians were greeks, then? dissapear or slavoniazed?
little stupid? you say that must be smarter,
which smart can believe someone that say the old time the nation A is today nation B,
it is different to say that in ancient times Turkey was inhabited by greeks,
and different to say Greece is Turkey.
Now about embargo etc,
was done for 14 days and stoped,
we didnot want to start hostilities,
we believe in Freedom and not stupidity,
Beside look at it as it has,
A SERB IS SLAVIAN CAUSE HE IS SERB,
A SLOVAK IS SLAVIAN CAUSE HE IS SLOVAK,
A MAKEDONIAN IS A GREEK CAUSE HE IS MAKEDONIAN,
A PONTIAN GREEK IS GREEK CAUSE HE IS PONTIAN,

we are a nation that was shrunk and maybe today we still shrinking,
But still have sub-nationalities,
as you say the slavian Nations
Also is the Greek Nations,

the solution to let it be is not a good idea,

2 about the economic crisis in Greece is due to Humanism, and Stupidity,
every year millions of illegal immigrants enter Greece, cause of our laws and the face we look
it counted that from 2001 until today 8 000 000 pass borders,
today we feed free 2 000 000 islamic immigrants,
1 200 000 albanians enter, but due to neighborhood, we decide to give them lisence to work,
only the iraq people after USA invasion are 800 000 people,

we are at the top of criminallity,
BUT IF WE FAIL THE HALF BALKAN WILL FAIL,
cause greek corporation own the 28% of Bulgaria, and today other 300 are going to open there bussines
Greece own the 33% of FYrom Economy
Greece owns the 18 % of romania economy
Greece owns the 14 % of albania economy
Greece owns the 14 % of georgia-osetia economy,
imagine that if Greece collaps then Domino starts,

Besides the God Ares-Marsh never left from Aimos penninsula,
the theory after yugo-slavia Greece and then Romania and turkey is well known and we all know it,
but is it worthy?

soon oil wars will start,

greece-albania for Vlore oil,
Greece-turkey for aegean oil
turkey- cyprus - israel for cyprus oil -gas (very big ubder sea)
turkey bulgaria romania for dobritsa to kastamonu oil,
montenegro albania for gold silver tellurium, and the oil of elbasan area.until dalmatia,

why so much Army of UN for just human rights !!!!!

Elias2
21-01-11, 17:35
Iapetoc there isn't going to be any war.

LeBrok
21-01-11, 18:42
I'm sorry but the only thing that makes sense in iapetoc posts is his avatar.

iapetoc
22-01-11, 00:37
Hahahaha you like Ερατοσθενης?

Eratosthenes
he and ΑΝΑΧΙΜΑΝΔΡΟΣ were my favorite,
besides i m bold

Eratosthenes' measurement of the earth's circumference


HE PROVED THAT PLANET EARTH IS A SPHERE

centuries before Copernicus
thank god they did not burn him in fire,

Lebrok elias2 understood,
Balkan was is and will be always a melting pot,
in balkan is a very interesting oil area, but deep very deep,
the time for corp to let it out has come,
also the richest area in world fro tellurium metal, think what happened in romania with acid warm water poluttion, and you will understand.
the same way there can't be 2 Popes of rome, the same way can't be 2 makedonia.
about makedonia vardarska or upper makedonia,,,
i dont know, politicians are on negotiations, lets see,
the only double name i personally accept is slavic Makedonia.
because the problem is not the place but the ethnicity, the nationality,
they have their place we have our space,
the nationality is the problem
but is not for me to decide,

Lebrok there is rumor that wants balkans to be 18 to 23 states,

everybody here that lives in balkan knows it,
elias2 must have heard,

LeBrok
22-01-11, 05:19
I'm not sure if you write the way hard to make sense of, or you are using google translate, or just ADHD?

Eratosthenes was a genius to admire. Though you should compare him to Columbus or Magellan who were trying to prove that Earth was round. Columbus, was lucky to discover America on way to India, or he would have died on his journey, lol.
Copernicus was other genius, who first proved mathematically that Earth is not in center of our solar system, but the Sun is. Some people believed it was like this, some Greeks too, but nobody could prove it before Copernicus.

Going back to Macedonia. The point is Greeks and Greek culture changed through millenia. You probably noticed that people in secluded villages in Greece look a bit different than Greeks in big cities, right? But Greeks want to be just Greeks, and not different name Greeks. Same with Macedonia. Their culture and people changed somewhat but they want to keep the same name. It's fair to all. Greeks are in Greece. Macedonian in Macedonia. Greeks and Macedonians changed in 3 thousand years of history.

Anyway, don't you want a good friend at northern border? It's you neighbour and it is very important to have good relationship with you neighbors. Just let them have Macedonia name. What's more important, a good friend or Macedonia name?
Have a good friend instead of a war for 9 letter word! What's more important?

Elias2
22-01-11, 06:47
I'm not sure if you write the way hard to make sense of, or you are using google translate, or just ADHD?

Eratosthenes was a genius to admire. Though you should compare him to Columbus or Magellan who were trying to prove that Earth was round. Columbus, was lucky to discover America on way to India, or he would have died on his journey, lol.
Copernicus was other genius, who first proved mathematically that Earth is not in center of our solar system, but the Sun is. Some people believed it was like this, some Greeks too, but nobody could prove it before Copernicus.

Going back to Macedonia. The point is Greeks and Greek culture changed through millenia. You probably noticed that people in secluded villages in Greece look a bit different than Greeks in big cities, right? But Greeks want to be just Greeks, and not different name Greeks. Same with Macedonia. Their culture and people changed somewhat but they want to keep the same name. It's fair to all. Greeks are in Greece. Macedonian in Macedonia. Greeks and Macedonians changed in 3 thousand years of history.

Anyway, don't you want a good friend at northern border? It's you neighbour and it is very important to have good relationship with you neighbors. Just let them have Macedonia name. What's more important, a good friend or Macedonia name?
Have a good friend instead of a war for 9 letter word! What's more important?

Lebrok, it's not about the name, the 9 letters, its about territorial accusations based on said name by our northern neighbour. Just calling yourself macedonia monopolizes it and leads the way to claim land from Greece and Bulgaria. This is not Greek paranoia, they have rallies in skopje chanting "united Macedonia" as a slogan, and wave images in what they believe should be their country;

http://www.google.ca/imgres?imgurl=http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/macedoniadaily/protest-pela.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D588374%26page%3D55&usg=__yJFV6y79oujgrwqK15fWEFzx7pU=&h=522&w=787&sz=195&hl=en&start=0&zoom=1&tbnid=SWEOLzEfL4BY0M:&tbnh=148&tbnw=202&ei=6GA6TdCsO8GclgeOsd3_Bg&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dunited%2Bmacedonia%2Brally%26um%3D1%2 6hl%3Den%26sa%3DN%26biw%3D1280%26bih%3D645%26tbs%3 Disch:1&um=1&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=141&oei=1GA6TcT3Goe_gQe_142uCA&esq=11&page=1&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:4,s:0&tx=152&ty=23



http://i155.photobucket.com/albums/s305/macedoniadaily/protest-pela.jpg


It might seem like the bigger guy is picking on the smaller guy, but its the other way around. For years Greece has been trying to come up with a compromise but insted they give the cold shoulder. So who is being the good neighbour here now? A neighbour that promotes propaganda against the neighbour to the south or the country that wants to find a peaceful solution with the neighbour to the north?

The atmosphere has only gotten worse since Kosovo was illegally stripped from serbia, totally ignoring serbias sovereign rights over its land by the big powers. Because of that event, it gave more steam to the "greater albania" and "greater Macedonia" movements, not to mention fuels the separation ambition of The Republic of Serbska from bosnia. Kosovo should never have happened, it was a bad example for the region. FYROM had a civil war in 1991 between the government and the albanian minority. They caught a van full of guns and ammo trying to come from kosovo into FYROM not to long ago by albanians and there was a firefight. If you had any brains, then you would guess this probably wasn't the first or the last van like this crossing the boarder into FYROM. You even have Hungary issueing passports freely now to its people living in neighbouring countries like Romania and slovakia making those governments very uneasy. These "greater Whatever" movements have to stop, if you support FYROM just having the name 'Macedonia' you arn't supporting peacefull negotiation in the region.

LeBrok
22-01-11, 07:33
Peaceful solution about a name? I'm just talking about a name, not the territorial concerns. It's a big stretch from the name to land acquisition of other country.

iapetoc
22-01-11, 13:33
LeBrok, its not a name,
ITS AN IDENTITY,
you lose an ID card, you get another,
YOU LOSE YOUR NAME, THEN ........
elias2 points correct,
Before we Had Yugoslavia, A BIG STATE full of many ethnicities, 6-7 NAtions,
look what happened,
Today we bosnia, WE DID NOT CHANGE BORDES!!!! so bosna today is also 2 Nations,
Today we have Kossyfopedio (kossovo-a) A Geografical state also 2 ethnocities,
that is the 'divide and conquer' rulling model,
Look where the British empire left,
British India, today pakistan, india, Bagladesh, kasmir, sri lanca etc
Look at Georgia at USSR time and today,
ossetia, Abhaz, rest georgia next to chechen,
if you let it be then it comes to your Head,
i have friends in skopje, also serbia, bulgaria, BUT
in Greece we say 'good deals, makes the good friends'
meaning that only clear acts and words and pay proves who is your good friend,

the fact is that for us they are what ever they like, except from us the Greek Makedonians,

but for them? No, we are also makedonians as they, but we must split from Greece and unite with them, ......!!!!!!!
HOW CAN THAT BE?
TO CREATE ANOTHER YUGOSLAVIA????? To Create a new imaginary History?
A new STATE with 4 nations? Greeks Albanians Bulgarians and Serbs!!!!
HOW THAT STATE WILL STAND?
In Bosna, Croatia, Serbia the Big problem was the religion, they have similar langauge,
Serbo-Croat, dialects of a bigger lingua,
But 1 is catholic 1 is muslim 1 is Orthodox, and they had wars,
in kossovo-a was bigger, religion and language and national.

how you can unite 3 religions 3 languages 3 nations in 1 state
only for satisfaction of Romans geographers
besides look at that,
Your family name is also 10-15 letters,
HOW WILL YOU FEEL WHEN SOMEONE FORCE YOU TO CHANGE IT?
WHAT YOUR ANCESTORS THINK ABOUT YOU???

that 9 letters its an Identification,

We are makedonians by blood and language,
they are makedonians cause they live in an area of an ex-Ottoman Makedonia province,

History never mentioned that Makedonians were Slavs, or they invated at 500 - 600 -800 AD.
only propaganda found that invasion,
So slavs want to create a nation in Balcans to prove what? that they were here before Serb and Bulgarian invasions? that they fight with Persian? hmmm thing about it, by having a slavian nation from ancient times simply you can claim the Peninsulla, and change History,

so who are they, they are slavs (serb -bulgars) that want to create a new nation,
they find proper to take the name after the (non owners) Turkish province of Makedonia
ok
BUT THEY MUST ADMIT IN THEIR CARTA OF INDΕPENDENCE (constitution),
THEY DON'T CLAIM AREA AND NATIONALITY OF GREEK MAKEDONIA
AND THEY ARE SLAVIANS,
That is why i personally accept the name makedonia only with the determination SLAVIAN

Lebrok if you lose your ID card then the thief can take your money, take loans from banks, drive your car, Travel with your name, etc
THINK WHAT WILL HAPPENED, if we admit to that you say,
1 we give up upon our ancestor lethal write,
then history will write that alexander was slavian who came from kurgan etc

BECIDES THE VIOLENT RAPE OF MAKEDONIAN HISTORY HAS STARTED,

LOOK AT MONUMENTS, THEY WRITE MAKEDON WITH K
LOOK AT THE STUPIDITY THAT FOLLOWS THAT YOU SAY I MUST ADMIT
THEY WRITE MACEDONIA WITH C

your Id card is 10-15 letters, why you don't give it away????

WE HAVE NOT LOST OUR IDENTITY CARD UNDER 400 OTTOMANS OCCUPATION
LOSE IT NOW????

Nations as Persons also Have ID Cards

LOOK At FIRST ORIGINAL ANCIENT MAKEDONIA

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b0/LocationMacedonia-MAC-3-z.png

LOOK AT ROMAN TIMES MAKEDONIA
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/LocationMacedonia-ROMAN-z.png

LOOK AT OTTOMAN MAKEDONIA

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/86/LocationMacedonia-OTT-2-z.png

IS IT THE SAME????

NO WAY,
NO NEED TO SATISFY THE OTTOMAN BY UNITE,
ITS SIMPLE THEY WANT TO TAKE THE NAME AFTER THE OTTOMANS PROVINCE, OK
BUT LET THEM MAKE CLEAR THAT THEY DON'T CLAIM LAND AND NATIONALITY

BUT I STILL WONDER WHY SO MUCH PASSION WTH MAKEDONIA NAME,
AND NOT PAEONIA,
WHICH IS GEOGRAPHICAL CORRECT AND FREE TO USE AND NON GREEK (other nation) AND ALSO ANCIENT AND WAS In HETAIROI Companion

Fyrom-ians ID is that
1) a part was the ancients Paeonians (thracian tribe) that slavonized allies of Makedonian Kingdom

2) a part of them was greek makedonians but slavonized

3) a part of them where Romans that dwell area

4) a part of them was serbians who lived or immigrate at the times of Stefan DUSAN of Serbia (capital Skopje)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan_Uro%C5%A1_IV_Du%C5%A1an_of_Serbia

5) a part of them was bulgarians who lived or immigrate at the times of Cymeon Of BULGARIA (Simeon)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simeon_I_of_Bulgaria

6) a part of them are slavians that immigrate at Ottomans Times

7) a part of them were people that lived in Greek Makedonia at 1948 and change country to follow the Communist party, (a big child gathering by communist party was send to communist Yugoslavia just for political reasons)
'The removal of children from Greece to countries of the Socialist States was another highly emotive and contentious issue. "About thirty thousand children were forcefully taken by the DSE from territories they controlled to Eastern Bloc countries" as described '
Also rebels-soldiers from EL.L.A.S and N.O.F allies
the total immigrations is estimated 70 000 people to Yugoslavia and from them 45 000 to Fyrom
A total estimation of 150 -200 000 Greeks communist to all East Block countries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_civil_war

a small part of ELAS (comunists) lives even today in the areas was given to them By east Block
another part returned back to Greece
a 3rd part changed nationality and recognize them selves as macedonians,
they mainly live in Australia, Fyrom, Serbia and other Diaspora areas,


Their common memories, other from ottoman, other from WW1, other from civil war,
as also the language they have, and the heroes they have, can surely bound them to a Nation
But it is different with the Greek Makedonian nation,

Elias2
22-01-11, 15:48
Peaceful solution about a name? I'm just talking about a name, not the territorial concerns. It's a big stretch from the name to land acquisition of other country.

The name and the territorial concerns go hand in hand. Read my last post above more carefully (look at that giant sign more carefully in the pic I posted)

iapetoc
22-01-11, 17:49
Lebrok watch carefully the down videos

the Fyrom-ian view

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqBsJvpfzM

watch 2:09 min carefully

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpSzlyM1jqo&feature=watch_response

watch at 5:32

Now watch the truth, Greek view

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SB3ALOHTGIA&feature=related

watch at 1:014

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjwEYXkKrmc&feature=related

what Macedonians, simply they use the name that J B TITO gave them,
and they are Bulgarians,

THAT IS THE TRUTH,
the old Russian way to exit to Aegean sea, from Catherine II of russia they wanted not to avoid Turkish Hellespont , and push Bulgarians to Aegean,
watch the videos carefully,

if you want more tell me to send you,

Look their heroes all are Bulgarians
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YAIqMRJpZfI&feature=related


Look at this video, Fyromian Nationalism

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qo47zf4WmBI&feature=related

WHATCH CAREFULLY THAT, IT IS TRUTH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhQA7x0waVs&feature=related

they change the name of the children so they cant find their roots,
and turn them against greece.


ONE OF THE BIGGEST CRIMES OF TITO, COMMUSTISTS ETC,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOiHqSEaCTA&feature=related

watch carefully 7:13 min
the True is that that Fyrom was build by Greekand Bulgarians claims to the region.
Tito and communists grab the chance, and create something imaginary, which today is real,
these people know that, and they live in a dream, of a home, their roots,
some big guys promise them the Big Makedonia as in the map, but that is an imaginary country,
so they don't know how to act, even who are they,
and they create and live in the lie of Alexander was a slavian,
How many people are they, lost in Slavian and communistic propaganda?

As you see Even UN afraid to enter the search for the children,
Why to make war with these people?
Why to bring them more sorrow?
then WHO IS BEHIND THE PROPAGANDA OF THE UNION???

find out your self

I know a man, very old,
in 1978 find his sister in skopje, in1983 his brother in romania, and the same time his other sister in Skopje and his other sister in Australia
he was lucky cause when gegs and NOF came and burn village he was out on the plains with the sheeps.
from 1948 to 1978 .... 30 YEARS 30 000 tears

J B TITO the Herod of 20th Century

LeBrok
22-01-11, 18:39
No, it's just a freakin 9 letter name that they want to use.
iapetoc, if we change your name to "whatever else" will you be a different person? Will your character change? Will your look change? You'll be exactly same person with same trillions of cells, talking the same things over and over on this forum.
We won't be even confused who you are because you will tell us this in advance.

The rest looks for me like one big national Greek paranoia.

iapetoc
22-01-11, 19:42
thank you again Lebrok

first you make a me slavian, now a paranoid
thank you very much,
tell them its 9 letters, not to use it,
your car license plates is also some numbers,
why don't you change them???

Garrick
22-01-11, 21:23
No, it's just a freakin 9 letter name that they want to use.
iapetoc, if we change your name to "whatever else" will you be a different person? Will your character change? Will your look change? You'll be exactly same person with same trillions of cells, talking the same things over and over on this forum.
We won't be even confused who you are because you will tell us this in advance.

The rest looks for me like one big national Greek paranoia.

LeBrok
Paranoia exists, but but in a completely opposite side.

Current Macedonian (FYROM) elite in a country that is in a difficult economic position find a solution how to distract.

The campaign is "nationalism and antiquity".

One can not believe in what turns Skopje, by 2014 it will be a city full of statues.

Balkan Insight writes:

"The government submitted its 2011 draft budget of EUR 2.6 billion to the parliament on Monday. In the draft capital investments are increased from 15 to 29 per cent to help the economy stay healthy.

Although the details of the proposed budget have not been released, it is widely expected that significant portions of these funds will be directed at carrying out the controversial “Skopje 2014” revamp of downtown Skopje, which includes a number of massive statues."

To solve life's questions has no assets but because statues are progressing at full steam.


http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/file/show/Macedonia%20Government%20Building%201.jpg

http://www.moveoneinc.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/lion.jpg

Antiquity is everywhere, in order to the present false image that todays Macedonia (FYROM) is same as Ancient Macedonia.

Of course from such a policy is not surprising this demonstrations:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_hdgmnPXrcbM/S64fJxI3kWI/AAAAAAAABig/4Uk-RZdf0gE/s400/Solun+capital+of+FYROM.JPG

These are clear territorial requirements for other states and someone can be quite logical to interpret taking the name of ancient state is for the purpose of these requirements.

Regulus
22-01-11, 22:04
I confess that I was unaware of such an effort. Without seeing that, I would have thought that any such claims, like those I mentioned, would have been restricted to outrageous claims of the pamphlet type or put into textbooks at most.

I had no idea that so much capital was being directed towards building what amounts a whole infrastructure of a veneer to support their claims.

Talk about an "opiate of the masses"

DejaVu
22-01-11, 22:44
Waited to see what you fools should come up with and I guessed right - Political crap from the Serbs and Greeks that dont belong here, the tread discussions is about Y-DNA and history. The tread is already damaged and there is no way to start discussion about Macedonians history and DNA from ancient times to present in this tread.

Spammed with propaganda and none discussions about facts only pure outrageous behavior. None of the crap you posted have anything to do with macedonians, their dna and history. This is the only tread that have nothing to do with it. Thats why I didnt bother to answer anything.

And many here have already broken against the rules of the forum.
(4) ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR : repeated, abusive posts that are intended only to attack other members, ethnic groups, countries, or organizations.

Close the tread or get a warning. New tread is needed to continue with the unsolved arguments. Maciamo its up to you to do your job now.





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Garrick
22-01-11, 23:39
DejaVu
I'm so sorry that you misunderstood post.

I quoted the website Balkan Insight, to understand, you should know what kind of site is it. Balkan Insight is very serious international site and not transmitted through anyone's nationalist propaganda.


www.balkaninsight.com/en/static-page/balkan-insight (http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/static-page/balkan-insight)

"Balkan Insight is the leading news site covering the Western Balkans Region. Our correspondents are drawn from across the former Yugoslavia and Albania, Bulgaria and Romania and our site is widely regarded as the only source of balanced reporting providing copy in English to international journalistic standards.

...
Our writers include respected authors and commentators on the region, including Tim Judah, author of the seminal work on the conflicts of the 90s, 'The Serbs', Kenneth Morrison, Senior Lecturer in Modern East European History at De Montford University and author of 'Montenegro: A Modern History' widely recognised as the leading work on the subject, Matthew Parish, formerly the Chief Legal Advisor to the International Supervisor of Brcko, and author of 'A Free City in the Balkans: Reconstructing a Divided Society in Bosnia' and Marcus Tanner formerly the Independent's correspondent for the region and author of 'Croatia: a Nation Forged in War'.


We also publish commentaries and opinions from international political and government figures.

Our own team of correspondents and editors have won many national and international awards including an Overseas Press Club (USA) and Human Rights Watch Award, CEI SEEMO Award for Investigative Journalism (2009 and 2010), Association of Professional Journalists of Kosovo Best Print Online Story Award (2006) United Nations Development Program (UNDP), Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe (OSCE) and Kosovo Anti-Corruption Agency Journalism Prize (2006)."



Here you can read the full article:

www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-should-freeze-monument-frenzy (http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-should-freeze-monument-frenzy)

You can read more reviews of Macedonians and Albanians about such spending (in this and other articles of Balkan Insight):

Dafina Trenkovska

"Only in Macedonia the people live in poverty and the authorities throw millions on splendor."

Post is fully in line with the theme as it comes to construction of ancient statues, ie. search links current elite in Macedonia FYROM with ancient Macedonia.

iapetoc
23-01-11, 00:44
I really wonder, except of Alexander did they also make Slavian Aristotle?
King Phillip II, or Olympias,
oh God, someone must inform these people about trough.

Elias2
23-01-11, 02:09
Waited to see what you fools should come up with and I guessed right - Political crap from the Serbs and Greeks that dont belong here, the tread discussions is about Y-DNA and history. The tread is already damaged and there is no way to start discussion about Macedonians history and DNA from ancient times to present in this tread.

Spammed with propaganda and none discussions about facts only pure outrageous behavior. None of the crap you posted have anything to do with macedonians, their dna and history. This is the only tread that have nothing to do with it. Thats why I didnt bother to answer anything.

And many here have already broken against the rules of the forum.
(4) ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR : repeated, abusive posts that are intended only to attack other members, ethnic groups, countries, or organizations.

Close the tread or get a warning. New tread is needed to continue with the unsolved arguments. Maciamo its up to you to do your job now.





Forum Rules
We would like to kindly remind members to respect the Forum Rules (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/rules.shtml).

The following violations of the rules will get you banned immediately.

(1) ILLEGAL DOWNLOADS/UPLOADS : hyperlinks to torrents, MP3s, yousendit/megaupload/rapidshare, and other filesharing services due to the sensitive nature of copyright protection.

(2) SPAMMING : posts promoting commercial products, services or websites, but also new members promoting any websites unrelated to Europe or Genetics.

(3) PORNOGRAPHY : any explicit picture or video.

(4) ABUSIVE BEHAVIOUR : repeated, abusive posts that are intended only to attack other members, ethnic groups, countries, or organizations.

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Note that spammers will be automatically reported to the anti-spam authorities.

We want that as many people as possible enjoy the forum within the rules.

Thank you for your cooperation,

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Nothing here is factual? everything here is factual, and yes we talk about history alot too. It's not the propaganda that you grew up with I give you that, it's the truth.

iapetoc
23-01-11, 03:07
he is talking to me
cause i used links from youtube

LeBrok
23-01-11, 04:30
your car license plates is also some numbers,
why don't you change them???

Often when I buy a new car I keep old license plate from previous car. Car changes but number is the same, imagine that! Who cares, it's just a number, right? What matters is the car and not the license plate number.
Thanks for helping me. :)

Just to be understood. I'm not claiming Macedonians are good, greeks are not good. There is much bull shit in any country. All Balkan countries are spewing their own propaganda, and complain about the others propaganda. I can't even find one innocent country here, at least partially.

I'm talking about only Macedonia name, that's all.

how yes no 2
23-01-11, 14:02
Waited to see what you fools should come up with and I guessed right - Political crap from the Serbs and Greeks that dont belong here, the tread discussions is about Y-DNA and history. The tread is already damaged and there is no way to start discussion about Macedonians history and DNA from ancient times to present in this tread.

Spammed with propaganda and none discussions about facts only pure outrageous behavior. None of the crap you posted have anything to do with macedonians, their dna and history. This is the only tread that have nothing to do with it. Thats why I didnt bother to answer anything.

DejaVu,
Do you want to tell us that settlement of all the Slavic tribes in Macedonia on the map bellow is invented and that instead ancient Macedonians lived there? If you claim that those Slavic tribes are in fact ancient Macedonians (which perhaps might be the case), burden of the proof is on you. If you have arguments, you will respond to this. If you do not have arguments, you should rethink about the meaning of word propaganda...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d5/Slavic_tribes_in_the_Balkans.png

Marianne
24-01-11, 13:44
Often when I buy a new car I keep old license plate from previous car. Car changes but number is the same, imagine that! Who cares, it's just a number, right? What matters is the car and not the license plate number.
Thanks for helping me. :)

Just to be understood. I'm not claiming Macedonians are good, greeks are not good. There is much bull shit in any country. All Balkan countries are spewing their own propaganda, and complain about the others propaganda. I can't even find one innocent country here, at least partially.

I'm talking about only Macedonia name, that's all.

What I don't understand LeBrok is why you insist that they should get the name. According to what you say it is just a name so why should we give up the name we have been using for thousands of years? Why shouldn't they give up the name and use something else? After all it's just a name you say and historically the name is ours...

If you happen to have the same name and last name as somebody else then you have an ID number that tells you apart from each other. If you didn't have that ID number or some other form to differentiate yourself then the other guy would be able to come to your house and claim it along with anything else you own. Would it also be fair to you that someone who wants to change his name legally to yours then demands that you no longer have the right to call yourself with your rightful name?

If they get to be named Macedonia, and not Vardaska Macedonia or North Macedonia or Upper or whatever, they will claim every other land called Macedonia (which is 3 times their size )and that is Greek lands mainly and also Bulgarian. You saw the pictures above with flags depicting one big united Macedonia as one nation. They want to expand and getting the name is the biggest step.

Not every country is lucky enough to border with only one country in peace, like yours. We have big issues here in the Balkans...

LeBrok
24-01-11, 18:18
So how do you want to solve big Balkan issues without compromising, giving up, accommodating? There is no other way to solve these problems.
And look, you claiming to be ready to "negotiate" and work on problems with Macedonia, but you stuck even on stupid name.


PS. You always now a person or nation, not by what they say or promise, but truly for what they do, by their actions.

iapetoc
24-01-11, 18:27
hmmmm

Lebroc Greece build many small factories, Greece build and construct telecomunications there, Greece imports goods, Greece helped them to pass the economical shock, of falling east europe status qvo,
they know it, and they accept it,
the name does not stop both countries to trade and visit,
but the name is an step to better relations without claims etc,

Elias2
24-01-11, 19:36
So how do you want to solve big Balkan issues without compromising, giving up, accommodating? There is no other way to solve these problems.
And look, you claiming to be ready to "negotiate" and work on problems with Macedonia, but you stuck even on stupid name.


PS. You always now a person or nation, not by what they say or promise, but truly for what they do, by their actions.

Compromising, giving up, accommodating? Greece is doing all of these things by letting them use the name macedonia but making sure they add some kind of prefix to the name. Vardar Macedonia, Vardarska Macedonia, Northern Macedonia, Upper Macedonia, Slavo-Macedonia, New Macedonia, these are all compromeses. It is FYROM that is not compromising, giving up, or accommodating the concerns of greece which stem from the propaganda their government deploys on its people which is highlighted throughout this discussion. It is illegal in FYROM to have scientific study of the origins of their people, they have something to hide (they were bulgarians, and fought for bulgaria in the balkan wars). Lebrok you are starting to have a very double standard tone in your opinion of this issue, saying greece should do more to comprimise. Greece is already accommodating FYROM's concerns, maybe its time FYROM do the same.

LeBrok
25-01-11, 01:16
OK then, show me any international document that states that Macedonia name belongs legally to Greece. Is name Macedonia registered as Trademark or with Rights Reserved, or any other international organization that controls ownership of names?
Is Macedonia braking any international law when calling itself Macedonia?

DejaVu
25-01-11, 01:53
Dont bother to comment in this tread. Forum rules are broken and all who continue with the discussion will soon find out its irrelevant.

Greeks are afraid thats why they started to talk about politics to hide the real truth.
Its not only about the name of the country its also about the identity renaming the language and people thats why no solution in the name issue and it have nothing to do with territorial claim.

Matthew Nimitz proposed that the Northern Greek region of Macedonia be renamed.

The UN mediator for the Macedonian naming dispute has just proposed in recent talks that rather than Macedonia (the country) be renamed Macedonia region in Greece should be.

Since that none of the compromises involving the country of Macedonia' name were acceptable to Greece. Only Greece is the one with a problem with the name maybe it would be easier for them to change the regions' name to avoid confusion.


NORTHERN GREECE - Region of Macedonia was known as that till 1988. So going back to the old name should be simple. The name Region of Macedonia in Greece did not exist before year 1988.

There is No Antique, Slav, or Greek Macedonians only Macedonians and no Macedonians.
Go back to your real name fake greeks and now fake macedonians we dont need your fake identities.

Elias2
25-01-11, 02:39
OK then, show me any international document that states that Macedonia name belongs legally to Greece. Is name Macedonia registered as Trademark or with Rights Reserved, or any other international organization that controls ownership of names?
Is Macedonia braking any international law when calling itself Macedonia?

I showed you enough to detail why they are not macedonians, if you have to use bureaucracy to help define a country you know something in wrong. Greece got its macedonia in the balkan wars of 1912-13. The 'macedonians' of FYROM at that time were proud bulgarians. After brainwahsing commmunist yugoslavia under Tito and later the nationalism that erupted form the breakup of said Yugoslavia, they called themselves Macedonians and then proceded to lay land claims on greece because of said invented nationalism of the 'ethnic macedonians' as shown in this discussion. If you support FYROM that they can call themselves just Macedonia you support its land claims on its neighbour. You can do whatever you want, its your opinion on the matter, just know you are not looking for peaceful resolution to this dispute, nor do you care about historical accuracy at all. It won't bother me though, because as a history major I feel it nessecary that history is not turned into a commmodity that can be bought or sold.

Elias2
25-01-11, 02:45
Dont bother to comment in this tread. Forum rules are broken and all who continue with the discussion will soon find out its irrelevant.

Greeks are afraid thats why they started to talk about politics to hide the real truth.
Its not only about the name of the country its also about the identity renaming the language and people thats why no solution in the name issue and it have nothing to do with territorial claim.

Matthew Nimitz proposed that the Northern Greek region of Macedonia be renamed.

The UN mediator for the Macedonian naming dispute has just proposed in recent talks that rather than Macedonia (the country) be renamed Macedonia region in Greece should be.

Since that none of the compromises involving the country of Macedonia' name were acceptable to Greece. Only Greece is the one with a problem with the name maybe it would be easier for them to change the regions' name to avoid confusion.


NORTHERN GREECE - Region of Macedonia was known as that till 1988. So going back to the old name should be simple. The name Region of Macedonia in Greece did not exist before year 1988.

There is No Antique, Slav, or Greek Macedonians only Macedonians and no Macedonians.
Go back to your real name fake greeks and now fake macedonians we dont need your fake identities.

Source? because FYROM has never proposed any compromises in the past. If you want to talk about politics go right ahead, I'm waiting my friend ;)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 02:49
What details? You mean your fake conclusions?

This is usual Ottoman Statistic that cruise the web, to prove that during the Ottoman time there were no Macedonians.

It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.

Look at the Vilaet of Kosova, you will notice that the majority of the non Moslem Populaton are of Bulgarian affiliation. How ever we know that there are no Bulgarians in Kosovo, thus this Bulgarians in the Ottoman statistics are most likely the Serbs affiliated with the Exarchate, cause the Serb church had no access to Kosovo region till 1912.

Another prove that this statistic are not Ethnic based is the fact that there are Moslem and Catolic affiliated Population. I would like someone to explain me what kind of Ethnic Groups are the Moslem or the Catolic one, if this has to be taken for Ethnic-Group statistic?

Important Note: In the Kosovo Vilayet were included not only modern Kosvo, but Rashka, the old Serbia and Pech - the modern Sit of the Serb Church.

In the words of Essyn Levent Emurla: (http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/200104/10404-003-trae-ath.htm)

............ the legacy of the Ottoman millet system which divided the empire's population according to religious affiliation, leading to a long-lasting correlation between religion and identity.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ofsKG4Jlu5I/SJGTWlc5uMI/AAAAAAAAAd0/6Nb00-UIAdc/s1600/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Vilayet
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Osmanu-vilajeti-kosova.svg/600px-Osmanu-vilajeti-kosova.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Osmanu-vilajeti-kosova.svg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Kosovo03.png/635px-Kosovo03.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Kosovo03.png)

There is no Serbs in Kosovo? Are you stupid or what?

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/OttomanMacedonia/statistics.html
Statistics of the Population of Macedonia before its Partition and the "Macedonian Question"

In 1827, the European powers intervened on behalf of the Greek rebels and forced the Turks to grant them independence. The same powers, established the first modern Greek state, chose Prince Otto of Bavaria to be the "King of the Hellenes", and sent him to Athens. Serbia freed herself also from the Turkish rule, while Russia declared war on Turkey to help Bulgaria gain its independence. The war between Russia and Turkey ended on March 3, 1878, with the peace settlement of San Stefano. The Turks had to agree to the formation of the new Bulgarian state, to also include all of Macedonia but the city of Salonika. Russia was hoping that greater Bulgaria with Macedonia would give her the strategic exit on the Aegean Sea, but she encountered fierce resistance from Austria-Hungary and England that saw their interests on the Balkans endangered. On July 13, 1878 with the Berlin Conference, they forced Russia to give up her dream and the San Stefano agreement was revised. Macedonia was returned to the Ottoman Empire. From this moment, Macedonia became a battleground where the interests not only of the Balkan states, but also of the Great Powers, collide.
The Ohrid Archbishopric was founded as a separate church in 995 to care for the religious needs of the Orthodox Macedonians. However, under the influence of the Greek Orthodox church, the Turkish sultan abolished the Macedonian church in 1767. The Greek Orthodox church was now able to enforce its religious teachings in Greek as the only Orthodox church to exist in the Balkans. Greece hoped to spread her influence and propaganda through the newly opened Greek schools, with a goal to Hellenize the population of Macedonia. But as their influence grew bigger, so did the resistance of the Macedonians. On March 7, 1851, the residents of Enidje-Vardar (today in Greece) signed a petition, for replacement of the teachings in Greek with Macedonian. In 1859, in Kukush was formed the resistance movement against the Hellenization that quickly spread to Voden, Kostur, Lerin, and the rest of southern Macedonia. Adding to the Greek influence, the Bulgarians now opened their schools in Macedonia in 1871, and the Serbs followed shortly after. This is the beginning of the so-called "Macedonian Question".
Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.
1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Macedonia's Districts
Greeks
Bulgarians
Vilaet of Thessalonica
373,227
207,317
Vilaet of Monastir
261,283
178,412
Santzak of Skopje
13,452
172,735

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims
423,000
Greeks
259,000
Bulgarians
178,000
Serbs
13,150
Others (Jews)
73,000

However, the 2 Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/ShortHistory.html), and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.
3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/PartitionedMacedonia/KingoftheGreeks.html) lived:
Turks
2,000
Greeks
1,341,000
Bulgarisants
77,000
Others (Jews)
91,000

But this map was submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreeceStealingMacedonianHistory.html). Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreekPropaganda.html).
Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality. Table 1 gives an excellent proof of those Balkan speculations and bias surrounding Macedonia:




balkan views
Greek





Nikolaides
1899
Bulgarian
Kenchov
1900
Serbian
Gopchevich
1886




Macedonian Slavs
454,000





-
-




Serbs
-





400
1,540,000




Bulgarians
-





1,037,000
-




Greeks
656,300





214,000
201,000




Turks and others
576,600





610,365
397,020

Table 1. Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's population
It is more than obvious that all the views coming from the Macedonia's neighbors which sharply contradict eachother, are biased. They all claim their people in Macedonia to justify their well-planned aspirations. It is important to note that both the Bulgarian and Serbian views agree that the Greeks in Macedonia represent only a small minority of 10%. The Greek ethnographer Nikolaides, on the other hand, claims three times bigger number than his colleagues in Belgrade and Sofia. However, the most important about Nikolaides is that he recognizes the Macedonian Slavs as a separate nation, separate from the Bulgarians and the Serbs, to be part of population of Macedonia. And although he tries hard to lower the numbers of those Macedonian Slavs, he still comes up with a convincing proof of their existence.
Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population
This is the time when many European slavists, ethnographers, and historians, are also attracted to visit Macedonia and conduct their own investigations. Therefore, to find the unbiased population numbers in Macedonia, we have to rely on neutral and independent statistics:




neutral views
German





Dr. K. Ostreich
1905
Austrian
K. Gersin
1903
English
Andrew Rousos




Macedonian Slavs
1,500,000





1,182,036
1,150,000




Serbs
-





-
-




Bulgarians
-





-
-




Greeks
200,000





228,702
300,000




Turks and others
550,000





627,915
400,000

Table 2. Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population



Although the Macedonians are referred as "Macedonian Slavs", the main point of the statistics is the fact that they are recognized as distinct nation with cultural and historical right over their country Macedonia in which they are overwhelming majority. The reluctance to refer to them for what they are (simply as Macedonians), is explained by the overemphasizing of the contemporary Greek vs. Slavic (Serb and Bulgarian) rivalry over Macedonia in which the westerners desired to make the note that the Macedonians were more "Slavs" then "Greeks" - thus resulting in the use of the term "Macedonian Slavs" to distinguish them from all but still indicate their closer relation to their northern then southern neighbors, as interestingly was the case with the ancient Macedonians and their closer relations with the Thracians and Illyrians then with the ancient Greeks.

Yet the term "Macedonian Slavs" is erroneous since the Macedonians, although conscious of their ancient Macedonian roots and Slav admixture, did not specifically call themselves "Macedonians Slavs", but Macedonians as the documents over the last 2,500 years show (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Documents.html). The same "Macedonian Slavs" mistake was again repeated by some western media, as the Albanian terrorists attacked Macedonia in March of 2001, and again it was done deliberately. This deliberate bias is again there, unfortunately because of the political situation and the western media's inclination towards the goals of the Albanian terrorism for "Greater Albania" (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AlbanianTerrorism/greatheralbania.html). As at the beginning of the 20th century (http://makedonika.org/html/20th_century.htm), the Macedonians showed their outrage at the beginning of the 21st century of this racial insult and publicly instead that their nationality be respected. Not only the Macedonians all over the world vigorously accused the western media for racial bias, but also did various western independent (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AlbanianTerrorism/eran.html) and non-government (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa397.pdf) organizations. That referring to the Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs" was a mistake was publicly acknowledged by BBC which apologized and withdrew its reporter Paul Wood precisely for his bias reporting, and since continued to rightfully refer to the Macedonians for what they have always been - Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AlbanianTerrorism/westernfabrications.html).
From the two above tables one can easily notice that the number of Greeks in Macedonia according to the neutral authors also aligns with the numbers given by the Serb and Bulgarian authors. This is a proof that the Greeks before the partition of Macedonia, were indeed a small minority, only 10% from the total population. This fact certainly does not give them the copyright of the name Macedonia. Dr. Ostreich, Gersin, and Roussos, are only a few of the many neutral authors to prove the groundless speculations of the Balkan counties. They proved that Macedonia belongs to a separate nation, which proves that the Bulgarians and the Serbs have than simply substituted the numbers of the Macedonians for theirs. Another Austrian, Karl Hron explained why that is unjustified:
"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..." and:
"... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language".
There were even Greek and Bulgarian writers to support what Karl Hron has written. One such example is the Bulgarian slavist and ethnographer P. Draganov, who in his studies of 1887-1894 and 1903, proved the existence of the Macedonians and the Macedonian language as a distinct language.
At the time of the emergence of the so-called Macedonian question, and the aspirations of the Macedonian neighbors for occupation of the country, the famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875:

"People who originate from one and the same race, speak the same language, live together in harmony, and have the same customs, songs and mentality, constitute a nation, and the place where they live is their homeland. In this way, the Macedonians are a nation and their homeland is Macedonia" and,
"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"
Pulevski was right back in 1875. He was proud Macedonian of his ancient heritage, conscious, and aware that the Macedonians were a distinct nation, a fact that the documents of the last 25 centuries clearly show (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Documents.html).

The usage of Macedonian and Macedonia separate from Greek or Bulgarian and Greece or Bulgaria is more than obvious. Also these sources are objective, old and clear, and do not offer any further interpretation; that is how they prove the existence of the Macedonians as a Nation with this name in this region, separate from the Greeks and Bulgarians in many ways. The fact that old documents call these people Macedonians shows that the Macedonians aren't an artificial creation, but a nation with a homeland and a name-Macedonia and Macedonians.


YOU GREEKS ARE WELCOME ANY TIME YOU WANT YOU GOT 0 RELEVANT INFORMATION.
PLEASE POST MORE ABOUT TITO AND BANOVINA AND MAYBE MORE FAKE STATISTICS.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 02:55
The Origin of the Slavs by Joseph Skulj October 13, 2004
The following two, articles, courtesy of Joseph Skulj, contain very important information on the origin of the Slavs.

"Slavs have been known by many names during the historical period. However, genetically they are descendents of populations that sought refuge in the Balkans and Ukraine during the Last Glacial Maximum approx. 20,000 years ago.
In the attachments (marked ITEM 2) is an article which will appear in the Sept/Oct issue
of 'The Voice of Canadian Slovenians/GLASILO kanadskih slovencev', which shows a genetic continuity between Veneti and the people in the Balkans.
Also included in the attachments (marked ITEM 1) is a letter to Prof.
Curta who is of the opinion, that Slavs are a 6th century invention."



2004-10-13

Joseph Skulj P. Eng.
11 Westacres Dr.
Toronto ON, Canada M6M2B7
[email protected]

Prof. Florin Curta Department of History University of Florida

Re: The Making of the Slavs

Dear Prof. Curta:

The Making of the Slavs-Will this book with its eye-catching title tell us about the origin of the ~40 % of the population of Europe who are occupying more than half
of its land mass?
Will it reveal to us how, when and where they originated?
Will we find out why they speak so many sister languages and are known by so many names? What were the mechanisms that caused this spread; how much can be attributed to elite dominance and how much to other factors?

The origin of the Slavs is relatively unclear, but the title of your book suggests
that you have found the answer.
Recently I ordered your book The Making of the Slavs, through U. of T. bookstore, (since they did not have it in stock), hoping that the information you compiled would give me a historian's insight into the linguistic and genetic origin of the Slavs and why they now represent ~40% of the population of Europe and occupy more than half of the continent.
I was also hoping to learn, why even in the 2nd cent. A.D., one third of all the Roman military bases were located in the northern Balkans.

Now, on reading The Making of the Slavs, I find that I have been misled by the title of the book.
While the book does provide valuable detailed historical information, specially, from the Arabic and Greek sources regarding the Slavs during the historical period, when they fought against the Roman Empire, the super-power of that time both on land and sea, it does not adequately address their genetic and linguistic origins.
You mention the building and renewing of the Roman forts in the Balkans-"eight times more than in the entire Asian part of the Empire".
This is reminiscent of the 20th cent. Cold War armaments between the 2 super powers of the day.
Since the Roman Empire did not spring into existence overnight, it is reasonable to assume, in the light of historical data you provide, that Slavs have a pre-historical origin.
Based on archaeological evidence,scholars such as Alinei and Renfrew posit that there is a considerable continuity in Europe, from the time of the first farmers and that there is no reason to think in terms of large-scale movements of people in association of the spread of metallurgical practices.
There is also genetic and linguistic evidence that indicates a pre-historic origin of the Slavs.

Genetic studies indicate that populations of Europe, including the Slavs, were present for millennia before the 6th cent. A.D., in the regions that they now occupy.
For instance, Richards M. and 36 others (2000), in their studies of the
maternally inherited mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA), conclude that (i) the majority of extant mtDNA lineages entered Europe in several waves during the Upper Paleolithic, (ii) there was a founder effect or bottleneck associated with the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) 20,000 years ago, from which derives the largest fraction of surviving lineages, (iii) the immigrant Neolithic component is likely to comprise less than one-quarter of the mtDNA pool of modern Europeans.
They also estimate that from the Bronze Age to the recent time, the migration events brought the following percentages of mtDNA lineages to various regions of Europe:
Alps-6.9%, Southeastern Europe-8.2%, Northeastern Europe-5.5%.
And (iv) there has been a substantial back-migration into the Near East.
Eastern Europe appears to have been the main source of the back-migration, also the Philistine migration, and the slave trade.
In addition, there were also the desertions from the Byzantine army that you point out in your book.

Vernesi C. and 12 others (2004) in their recent study of the mtDNA lineages of
the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains of the Etruscans and the Veneti, provide the mitochondrial sequences present in these skeletal remains.
Thus they make it possible to compare, genetically, the present day populations with the Etruscan and Veneti upper classes, since those tombs typically belonged to social elites.

Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) with their mtDNA study of Bosnians and Slovenians make it possible to compare genetically these extant populations with the ancient populations of Etruria and Venetia. Surprisingly, 4 out of 5 (80%) of the mtDNA lineages found in the skeletal remains from Adria, which was in the Roman province of Venetia et Histria, are also found in the present day Bosnians and Slovenians.
This, along with other studies, is an indication that there has been a genetic continuity for at least 2,500 years, between the people of the Balkans and the peoples of the northeastern Italy.

The research into the paternally inherited Y-chromosomes of the various populations gives the researchers another insight into pre-historical events. In a recent study of the Y-chromosome haplogroup I (Hg I), Rootsi S. and 45 others
(2004), find it in Macedonians (northern Greece) at 30 %, Slovenians at 38 %, Croats at 38 %, Bosnians at 42 %, Poles at 18 %, Ukrainians at 22 % and
Russian (Cossacks ) at 23 %.
They conclude that the Hg I subhaplogroup I1b2* in the extant populations, arose in Europe before Last Glacial Maximum (LGM).
It is at the highest concentration in the northwestern Balkans at ~40%, but it extends from just west of the Italian Apennines to Eastern Europe, and it probably diffused after the LGM from a homeland in Eastern Europe or the Balkans.
The high diversity of these lineages in Bosnia supports the view that they may have been present in the Balkans before the LGM. Semino O. and 16 others (2000), propose that this lineage originated in Europe in descendents of men that arrived from the Middle East 20,000 to 25,000 years ago.

Malyarchuk B.A. and 5 others (2003) note that another Y-chromosome genetic marker Hg R1a is also present in Slavic speaking populations at a high frequency
30%-50% (Poles, Russians, Belorussians, Ukrainians, Czechs, Slovaks). Rosser
ZH., and 62 others (2000) quantify this frequency: in Poles at 54 %, Russians-47
%, Belorussians-39 %, Ukrainians-30 %, Czechs-38 % and Slovaks-47 %. It is also present at a relatively high frequency in the Slavic speaking populations in the Balkans: Croats-29%, Slovenians-37%, Macedonians-35%. The Bulgarians are an exception at only 12%. Semino et al. interpret the distribution of this haplotype as a signature of expansion from isolated nucleus in the present Ukraine, following LGM.
The lineage appears to have been present in Europe since the Paleolithic times.

Belyaeva O. and 7 others (2003), based on mtDNA studies, propose a central
European origin of the Eastern Slavs.

Based on the genetic data available, there is evidence that Slavs developed primarily from two populations who sought refuge during the LGM, one in the Balkans and the other in the Ukraine, and who expanded subsequently from their climatic sanctuaries. The Apennine Mountains appear to be the westerly limit and the Indian sub-continent the easterly limit of this expansion.

Qamar R. and 8 others (2003) note that four out of five frequent haplogroups in Pakistan, which together make up 79% of the total population are also frequent in western Asia and in Europe, but not in China or Japan.
The frequency rises to 86% in the Pathan and Sindhi populations who are Indo-European speakers and where the dominant haplogroup is Ra1 at 47%, which is similar in frequency to Slovak and Russian populations.

Bamshad M., and 17 others (2001), in "Genetic Evidence on the Origins of Indian Caste Populations" conclude that for paternally inherited Y-chromosome variation each caste is more similar to Europeans than to Asians and the affinity to Europeans is proportionate to caste rank, the upper castes being more similar to Europeans, particularly East Europeans. Generally, haplogroup Ra1 is the most frequent amongst the speakers of Slavic languages and their cousin languages,
the Indic languages. The Slovenian language in the most westerly Slavic country has ~80% of its vocabulary similar to its sister Russian language in sound and meaning. In addition, Slovenian has lexical and grammatical similarities to the cousin Indic languages in particular to the Vedic Sanskrit, where ~20% of the lexicon is similar in sound and meaning.

This grammatical similarity between Sanskrit and Slovenian is well illustrated by the conjugation of the verb: "to be"
http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/homes/blog/skulj_01.gif
PIC 1
It is anomalous that the present day Slovenian retains so many similarities with
the Sanskrit, in particular with the Vedic Sanskrit, despite the wide separation due to time and geography. It should be noted that Slovenian retains many
lexical and grammatical similarities with Sanskrit no longer present in Indian and some Slavic languages as can be seen from the example above.

It is rather unfortunate, that the book does not address more thoroughly the
origins of the Slavs in the light of the historical information about them in Europe that you amassed and also in light of the linguistic and genetic similarities with
the people of the Indus valley, particularly the linguistic similarity with the Vedic
Sanskrit and the more recent genetic studies of the Etruscan and Venetic
skeletal remains in the west and also the 2500 year old Scytho-Siberian skeletal remains in the east.
Perhaps, you are planning a sequel to the book, where you will address the pre-historical origin of the Slavs, not just one name and will incorporate the results of the latest archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies into your hypotheses, using a multi disciplinary approach.
Hopefully, you will use the historical records as a guide into pre-history to interpret the results of the current archaeological, genetic and linguistic studies.

Yours truly,

Joseph Skulj P. Eng.

ITEM 2

ETRUSCANS, VENETI and SLOVENIANS:
A Genetic Perspective

(J. Skulj P.Eng. The Hindu Institute of Learning, Toronto, Canada. 2004-10-5) POVZETEK
Genetske primejave Etrušcanov in današnjih Slovencev ka?ejo na znatne sorodnosti. Ertušcanski primerki so vzeti od okostnjakov--njihovih veljakov--iz grobnic, nastalih med 1. in 7. st. pr. Kr..
V te primerjave je vkljucenih 5 okostnjakov iz mesta Adria, ki je v pokrajini Veneto-v rimski dobi pa je bila Adria v provinci Venetia et Histria.
Genetsko najbli?ji Slovencem so prav ti ~2,400 let stari okostnjaki iz Adria; kar 4 od 5 (80%) ima genetske vrste ki se sedaj najdejo na Balkanu.
Sedaj ~20% Slovencev nosi genetske vrste ki so prisotne pri ~2,400 let starih okostnjakih iz Adria. Tako se genetski podatki skladajo s teorijo kontinuitete na ozemlju Slovenije-in podpirajo Venetsko teorijo, ki zagovarja sorodnost Slovencev in Venetov.

INTRODUCTION

Analysis of mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) of modern populations has become a useful tool for human population studies and for reconstructing aspects of evolutionary history. The maternal mode of inheritance of the mtDNA, allows it to
be used for inferring the pattern of prehistoric female migrations and peopling of different regions of the world. It is now technically possible to validate these analyses by directly studying the DNA of ancient people (Malyarchuk 2003, Vernesi 2004).

Vernesi et al. obtained fragments of well preserved skeletons from Etruscan necropolises, covering much of the Etruria in terms of both chronology (7th to
2nd centuries B.C.) and geography. The tombs typically belong to the social
elites, so the individuals studied may represent a specific social group, the upper classes. The ancient human remains came from the following sites: Adria,
Volterra, Castelfranco di Sotto, Castellucio di Pienza, Magliano and Marsiliana, Tarquinia and also Capua. Two cities, Adria in the Po valley and Capua in Campania, were at the fringes of Etruscan territory.
In Adria the hybridization with the Veneti may have occurred (Vernesi 2004).

Vernesi et al. compared the mtDNA results obtained from the ancient remains to
a number of modern populations. Unfortunately, they did not take into account the genetic studies of Slovenians ( Malyarchuk 2003), who are geographically relatively close to Adria.

The Etruscans are one of the mysterious peoples of the ancient world, who seem
to have appeared for a time on the stage of history, and then seemed to have
disappeared. In fact, from the end of the Roman period to the Middle Ages, they could be said to have ceased to exist, since the sites of their cities, towns,villages and farms had been completely lost.
It was in the19th century that the study of the Etruscan legacy began in earnest.
The heart of Etruria was the territory, in the present day Italy, on the Tyrrhenian Sea between the rivers, Arno on the north and Tiber on the south and extending to Perugia in the east.
The Etruscan influence in the 7th and 6th centuries B.C., went beyond its heartland and extended to, Adria in the Po valley in the north and to Capua in the south.
It is generally accepted, that present day Tuscans are the Etruscans' closest neighbors (Wellard 1973, Vernesi 2004).

The Veneti are also one the historic peoples, subject of many discussions and debates, but who were more widespread than the Etruscans.
They were present in many lands (Mogentale-Profizi 2001): Veneti in Paphlagonia -northern coast of present day Turkey-were mentioned by Homer in 9th cent. BC., Veneti in
Illyricum (Enetoi) on the lower Danube and in the upper Adriatic, were mentioned
by Herodotus in 5th cent. BC:, Veneti in central Europe mentioned by Tacitus and Pliny the Elder, Veneti in Gaul were mentioned by Caesar, and Veneti in Latium who are referred to as Venetulani by Pliny the Elder. The Veneti and
Etruscans appear to be related. However, Adria was in the 10th Roman province
'Venetia et Histria' until the downfall of the empire.
There is historical, linguistic and topographic evidence that present day Slovenians are indigenous to their land and descendents of the Veneti (Šavli 1996).

DISCUSSION of GENETIC STUDIES

In the bone fragments, taken from the tombs of Etruria, Capua and Venetia, Vernesi et al. have found that out of 22 mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes, which they observed in 28 individuals, only two of them, CRS and 16126, occur in a sample of modern Tuscans and carried by ~14% of them.
Tuscans are considered to be the descendants of the Etruscans.
Both haplotypes occur in skeletons from Adria and Magliano/Marsiliana.
The fragments from Magliano/Marsiliana have been dated at 7th-6th centuries B.C., whereas those from Adria are from 5th-4th centuries B.C. (Vernesi 2004).

Comparing the results of Vernesi et al and Malyarchuk et al, it becomes apparent that, the present day Slovenians, carry more than just CRS and 16126 'Etruscan' mtDNA HVS1 haplotypes found in the Tuscans.
Twice as many 'Etruscan' haplotypes have been found in Slovenians than in Tuscans, namely: CRS, 16261, 16223, 16311.
These were found in skeletal remains from Adria, Magliano/Marsiliana and also from Volterra. Two additional haplotypes from Adria, 16126 and 16129, are similar to Slovenian haplotypes, but the Slovenian haplotypes differ from the 'Etruscan' ones of Adria, by an additional substitution;
16069-16126 and 16129-16304. However, haplotype 16129 without the 16069
substitution is found in Bosnia.
This leaves just one haplotype out of five, namely,
16126-16193-16278, where no similar haplotype is found in Slovenia.
However, this 16126-16193-16278 haplotype is similar to that found in skeletal remains from Capua at the southern limit of Etruscan influence where hybridization with Samnium natives or Greek colonizers may have occurred (Malyarchuk 2003, Vernesi 2004).

The root type 16069-16126 HVS1 sequence, present in ~8% of Slovenians, is very diverse and may represent a trace of Neolithic (new Stone Age at the beginning of agriculture) migration from the Middle East (Malyarchuk 2003). Haplotypes CRS, 16223, 16261 and 16311 are carried by ~17% of Slovenians. They belong to haplogroup H, which is estimated to be ~20, 000 years old; this haplogroup is the most common one in Slovenians at 47% (Richards 2000, Malyarchuk 2003).

Adria in Veneto

Focusing on 5 haplotypes, CRS, 16126, 16129, 16223, 16126-16193-16278
found in skeletal remains from Adria, which was part of Venetia et Histria during
the Roman era,.(Adria is even now located in Veneto, Italy), and comparing them
to the present day populations, we find:

--CRS in Slovenians at 13% (Malyarchuk 2003), in Europe at 24% (Richards
1996)

--16126 is found as 16069-16126 in Slo at 8% (M), in Eu 16069-16126 is at 7%
(R)

--16129 is found in Bosnians (Bos) at <2% (M), in Russians at 1% (M1) in
Basques at 9% (R); in Slo it is found as 16129-16148-16223-16391 and 16129-
16223-16391 at 2% (M).

--16223 is found in Slo at 1%, elsewhere in Eu only in South Germans and
Ukrainians (M)

From the above comparison, it can be seen, that there is a genetic continuity between ancient populations as attested from the skeletal remains found in Etruria proper and especially between those found in Venetia and the present day Europeans. While Tuscans share 2 haplotypes with the Etruscans, Slovenians and Bosnians share 3 haplotypes. It should also be noted that 2 additional Etruscan haplotypes from Adria in Veneto, differ from the Slovenian haplotypes by one to three substitutions. Considering the evidence, this shows the relatively strong genetic mtDNA relationship between ancient Veneti and modern day Slovenians.

In addition to the haplotypes in ancient Veneti from Adria, Slovenians also share haplotypes with the skeletal remains of Etruscans from Etruria proper, namely
from Volterra (Vo) and Magliano/Marsiliana (M/M). Furthermore,Russians and

Poles share one lineage with Castelfranco di Sotto (CS) not found in the
Slovenian sample.

--16261 of Vo is found in Slo at 1% (M), in Eu at <1% (R).

--16311 of M/M is found in Slo at 2%, in Bosnians at 7% (M), in Eu at 5% (R)

--16126 of M/M is found in Slo as 16069-16126 lineage at 8% (M) in Eu at 7%
(R).

--CRS of M/M is found in Slo at 13% (M), in Eu at 24% (R).

--16189-16356 of (M/M) is found in Poles at 0.5%, Russians at 0.5% and
Germans at 0.4% (M1)

Here again, no abrupt differences are seen between skeletal remains from
Etruria proper and the present day Slavic populations in the Balkans. Richards et al., in their study of 520 individuals from Europe, where the Slavic populations were not included, did not detect in the 16223 haplotype, which present in skeletal remains from Adria, nor has it been found in a sample of modern Tuscans (Richards 1996, Vernesi 2004), but is has been found in Slovenia, South Germany and Ukraine (Malyarchuk 2003).

The Y chromosome studies revealed that Haplogroup I (Hg I), reached ~40%-
50% in two distinct regions-in Nordic populations in Scandinavia and around the Dinaric Alps. Overall, this suggest, that populations carrying the Hg I could have played a central role in the process of human re-colonization of Europe, after the Ice Age (Rootsi 2004). Semino proposes that Hg I (M170) haplogroup originated
in Europe in descendants of men that arrived from Middle East 20,000 to 25,000
years ago.
This can be associated with an Epi-Gravettian culture in the area of the present-day Austria, the Czech Republic and the northern Balkans (Semino 2000).
Subhaplogroup HgI1b* is the most frequent clade in eastern Europe and the Balkans; its subclade Hg I1b2 is found in Sardinia, Castille and in Basques
(6%). Rootsi et al., mention and also show graphically, that Hg I1b* and Hg I1b2
co-occur west of the Italian Apennines. In the Veneto region of Italy, Hg I1b*
occurs at a frequency of~10% and I1b2 is absent; only Hg I1b* is present west of the Appenines; east of the Adriatic Hg I1b* reaches its highest concentration in
the north western Balkans (Rootsi 2004). This is also an indication that there is a genetic continuity, based on paternally inherited Y chromosomes, between the Slovenians and the people of Veneto region, including Adria..

Barbujani in his paper ''Genetics and the population history of Europe'', shows graphically a genetic continuity between the populations of the north western Balkans and the peoples now occupying the land of the ancient Veneti and Etruscans in Italy. A clear demarcation is seen in northern Italy at the western boundary of the Veneto region (Barbujani 2001). In another genetic study of the present day populations, it has been found, that the population in eastern
Veneto, is more akin to Tuscanian, than to western Veneto population
(Mogentale-Profizi 2001).
Furthermore, Malyarchuk et al., have also noted, that Slovenians have a high frequency, at 5%, of H-subcluster 16162, which is characteristic for central and eastern European populations. In the western neighbors of Slovenians, in the Veneto speakers of Italy, this is also present, at 6% (Malyarchuk 2003).

What language did the Etruscans and/or Veneti speak? Barbujani has made an intriguing observation, that partial correlations with language are stronger for the
Y chromosome than for mtDNA (Barbujani 1997). Conventional opinion has it, that Etruscans spoke a language isolate, a non-Indo-European language and that it disappeared ~90 B.C., when they lost their autonomy to the Romans
(Vernesi 2004). Some Slovenian scholars held/hold a different view. Bor had postulated that Etruscans were people originally linguistically related to the
Veneti; (the genetic evidence supports his hypothesis); they came from the north and in course of time merged with another people, which in turn influenced their language. By using Slavic languages, as a point of reference, he was able to decipher some of the older Etruscan inscriptions, including the Pyrgian Tablets,
but not their later inscriptions. On the other hand, he was quite successful in deciphering the Venetic inscriptions (Šavli 1996).

CONCLUSION

There is a genetic continuity between the ancient Etruscans and Veneti and the present day Slovenians.

Genetic information makes it evident, that Slovenians are indigenous to their land
as indicated by the mtDNA relationship with the ~2,500 year old skeletal remains
of the Etruscans, particularly those from Adria in Veneto.

Genetic information supports the historic quotation from the biography of St. Columban written in 615 A.D. and cited by Toma?ic "Termini Venetiorum qui et Sclavi dicuntur"-the land of the Veneti who are also called Slavs (Šavli 1996).

REFERENCES

Barbujani G (1997) DNA Variation and Language Affinities. Am J Hum Genet
61:1011-1014.

Barbujani G, Bertolle G (2001) Genetics and the population history of Europe. PNAS vol. 98 no.1:22-25.

(M) Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Drobnic K, Miscicka- Sliwka D (2003) Mitochondrial DNA Variability in Bosnians and Slovenians. Ann Hum Genet 67: 412- 425.

(M1) Malyarchuk BA, Grzybowski T, Derenko MV, Czarny J, Wozniak M, Misicka-Sliwka D (2002) Mitochondrial DNA in Poles and Russians. Ann Hum Genet 66:261-283.

Mogentale-Profizi N, Chollet L, Stevanovitch A, Dubut V, Poggi C, Pradie MP, Spadoni JL, Gilles A, Beraud-Colomb E (2001) Mitachondrial DNA sequence diversity in two groups of Italian Veneto speakers from Veneto. Ann Hum Genet
65: 153-166.

Richards M, Macaulay V, Hickey E and 34 others (2000) Tracing European
Founder Lineages in the Near Eastern mtDNA Pool. Am J Hum Genet 67:1251-
1267.

Richards M, Corte-Real H, Forster P and 7 others (1996) Paleolithic and
Neolithic Lineages in the European Mitochondrial Gene Pool. Am J Hum Genet
59:185-203.

Rootsi S, Magri C, Kivisild T and 42 others (2004) Phylogeography of Y- Chromosome Haplogroup I Reveals Distinct Domains of Prehistoric Gene Flow in Europe. Am J Hum Genet 75:128-137.

Šavli J, Bor M, Toma?ic I, trans. Škerbinc A (1996) VENETI: First Builders of European Community. Wien, Boswell: Editiones Veneti ISBN 0-9681236-0-0. pp.80, 197- 199, 344, 443, 501.

Semino O, Passarino G, Oefner PJ and 14 others (2000) The Genetic Legacy of Paleolithic Homo sapiens sapiens in Extant Europeans: A Y Chromosome Perspective. Science vol.290 10 November.

Vernesi C, Caramelli D, Dupanloup I, Bertorelle G, Lari M, Capellini D, Moggi- Cecci J, Chiarelli B, Castri L, Casoli A, Mallegni F, Lalueza-Fox C, Barbujani G
(2004) The Etruscans: A Population-Genetic Study. Am J Hum Genet 74: 694-
704.

Wellard J (!973) The Search for the Etruscans. London: Sphere Books Ltd. ISBN
0 351 18677 8. pp.11,113.

iapetoc
25-01-11, 03:11
Dejavu


IS THAT YOUR SYMBOL?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Du0zh6_nasU&feature=related

look at 0:23

how many flags you change???????

we are here from 808 BC when we kick Pieri-thracians
KARAMOS FIRST KING
MAKEDONIAN DYNASTY TOTAL GREEKS

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLzfWC3o130&feature=related

Alxander was Greek not Fyromian

Near to the East in a part of Ancient Greece
In an ancient land called Makedonia was born a king ....
IRON MAIDEN
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y89vfNpxbW0&feature=related

you even lie about ROSETA STONE
which is demotic EGyptian, just to prove, you had another language,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GgcMiF83fts&feature=related

DEjaVU TELL US OFFICIAL OPINION OF TSAR SAMUEL IN FYROM?
you even make tsar samuel of Bulgaria a Fyromian, and that lead Bulgarian to demonstrations,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lE5hpeYXG94&feature=related
WAS SKOPJE BULGARIA AT ST STEPHAN TREATY???? 1878
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYKTIygY3dw&feature=related

If as you said we became makedonians at 1988
THEN WHO ARE THESE PEOPLE ALL GREEK REGION MAKEDONIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oc5lTaa9HY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaK4ZpEnYto

they fought for Makedonia to be free from Slavian from 1878

and if you want Byzantine times, then remember Boulgaroktonos Vasil II
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vasile_Bulgaroktonos
maybe the Makedonian dynasty in Byzantine was also Fyromian

Well History is not fake, simply someone is trying to change it,

WE WERE, WE ARE, AND WE WILL BE HERE TO PROVE AND SAY THE TRUTH

from 808 BC when our first King Karamos establish our State WE ARE HERE SLAVIANS,

You are NO GREEK NO MAKEDONIAN YOU ARE A SLAV WITH BIG I2a2 HAPLOGROUP

ETRUSCANS CRETAN LIDYANS AEGEANS SPEAK TYRRSENNIAN BEFORE ROMAN,
NOT SLAVOMAKEDONSKI,
EVEN ATHENS SPOKE TYRRSHENIAN BEFORE GREEK REA THUKIDIDESTyrrshenian or thracian ot thrassenian
in eteo-crete even 100 AD the good morning was 'mari dia' not 'dobro utro'

The Lemnian stele is Tyrrshenian with Phoenician writting in an island north of aegean near chalkidiki Makedonia original

it is simple your languge is slavian cause Makedonian language was a dialect of Greek according to Hesychius of Alexandria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychius_of_Alexandria

The 1st Makedonian Lexicon

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e7/Hesychius_OP.jpg

is that slavian?

source Under the auspices of the Royal Danish Academy of Fine Arts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Royal_Danish_Academy_of_Fine_Arts) in Copenhagen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copenhagen) a modern edition has been in intermittent publication since 1953: to date, the new edition covers alpha through tau.

after Slavian invasion and Bulgarian-Hun invasion now Slavians claims that they were here before Even Thracians

GOds what else i will hear, maybe indians invade America????

well if I curse Tito is that illegal?

Besides the I2a2 Haplogroup in the map the genetical difference is Big,
E and J2 and low I2 in GreeK makedonia, also little J2 in Fyrom Thank you

the difference is obvious
Fyrom is genetically related with serbs and west bulgaria more than Greek Makedonia

DejaVu
25-01-11, 03:20
Division of Macedonia

The events of the two wars and the final partition are the best indications of the limits to which nationalist and chauvinist passions can corrupt humanity. For example, in pursuing the Bulgarian army during the second conflict, Greek forces systematically burnt to the ground all Macedonian villages they encountered, mass-murdering their entire populations. Likewise, when the Greek army entered Kukuš (Kilkis) and occupied surrounding villages, about 400 old people and children were imprisoned and killed. Several dozen distinguished Macedonians were victims of the persecution in Kukuš, previously marked for death as potential hazards for Greek occupation. Specially trained Greek units destroyed over 40 Macedonian villages.
About 4,000 refugees from Kukuš had gathered in the village of Akandzheli when on July 6, 1913, a Greek military unit entered the village. Though met with white flags, the village was burnt down and in the massacre which followed 356 refugees were killed, including children and the elderly. In Serez, Greek police imprisoned about 200 Macedonians and subsequently executed them. About 1,000 men were slain in the town of Nigrita alone. On the whole, in the region of southern Macedonia, the Greeks destroyed 16,000 houses and 100,000 Macedonians were forced to leave their homes and flee to neighboring countries.

http://makedonija.name/images/history/twentieth_century/division_fullmap.gif
"Map of ethnical-geographical Macedonia, a territory that
was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913"
Bulgarian armies and Vrhovist bands were not any more scrupulous in respecting human life. In the small town of Dokast, inhabited by Greeks and Turks, the Bulgarians fired 270 out of 570 homes and killed a hundred people. When they occupied the town of Serez for the second time, they torched 4,000 houses out of 6,000 and massacred many of the inhabitants, mainly Turks and Greeks, on the pretext of revenging the slain Macedonian population of the town.
Nor did the Serbian "liberators" lag behind in destruction and wanton slaughter throughout Macedonia. In Bitola (http://makedonija.name/cities/bitola), Skopje (http://makedonija.name/cities/skopje), Štip (http://makedonija.name/cities/stip) and Gevgelija (http://makedonija.name/cities/gevgelija), the Serbian army, police and chetniks (guerrillas) committed their own atrocities.
Nor were these events to be the last tragic consequences of the Balkan Wars: an enormous number of refugees from Macedonia were compelled by threats and force to leave their homes and flee. About 112,000 refugees sought shelter in Bulgaria, 50,000 of whom were Macedonians. Greece received 157,000 refugees, mostly Turks and Greeks, who settled on the properties of Macedonian refugees. About 1,000 refugees settled on Macedonian territory occupied by Serbia. About half a million people became refugees, driven across newly-created borders-driven from one part of Macedonia to another by the rampaging armies.

Elias2
25-01-11, 03:21
The Ohrid Archbishopric was founded as a separate church in 995 to care for the religious needs of the Orthodox Macedonians.

I had to give it to you, you didn't start lying until I read about this part, also the start of you 'evidence' that a maceodnian self identity started in 995, which was still Byzantium at this point. lets look more into detail about this Ohrid Archbishopic shall we? :grin:

BULGARIAN ARCHBISHOPRIC OF OHRID

"
The Archbishopric of Ohrid was an autonomous Orthodox Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthodox_Church)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Archbishopric_of_Ohrid#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Archbishopric_of_Ohrid#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Archbishopric_of_Ohrid#cite_note-2)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Archbishopric_of_Ohrid#cite_note-3) under the tutelage of the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecumenical_Patriarch_of_Constantinople)John I Tzimisces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_I_Tzimisces)Preslav (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preslav) capturing Bulgarian Tsar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsar) Boris II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boris_II). The Patriarch Damyan managed to escape, initially to Sredetz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sofia) in western Bulgaria. In the coming years, the residence of the Bulgarian patriarchs remained closely connected to the developments in the war between the next Bulgarian monarchist dynasty, the Comitopuli (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comitopuli), and the Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire). Thus, the next Patriarch German resided consecutively in Moglen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aridaia)Voden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edessa,_Greece) - (in present-day Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)), and Prespa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prespa) (in present-day Republic of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia)). Around 990, the last patriarch, Philip, moved to Ohrid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohrid) (in present-day Republic of Macedonia), which also became the permanent seat of the Patriarchate. between 1019 and 1767. In 972, Byzantine Emperor conquered and burned down and
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/96/Archbishop_Ohrid_mantle.jpg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Archbishop_Ohrid_mantle.jpg) http://bits.wikimedia.org/skins-1.5/common/images/magnify-clip.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Archbishop_Ohrid_mantle.jpg)
Mantle presented to the Archbishopric of Ohrid from the Byzantine Emperor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Emperor), Andronikos II Palaiologos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andronikos_II_Palaiologos), with an inscription, saying that the Archbishop was the spiritual shepard of the Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians) - Bulgarian National Historical Museum (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_National_Historical_Museum).


After by 1018 the First Bulgarian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire) had been subjugated by the Byzantines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) the Emperor Basil II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_II) acknowledged the autocephalous status of the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and by virtue of special royal decrees set up its boundaries, dioceses, property and other privileges. The Archibishopric was seated in Ohrid in the Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine) theme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_%28Byzantine_administrative_unit%29) of Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria_%28theme%29) and was established in 1019 by lowering of the rank of the autocephalous Bulgarian Patriarchate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Patriarchate) and its subjugation to the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate of Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchate_of_Constantinople). Although the first appointed archbishop (John of Debar) was a Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgaria), his successors, as well as the whole higher clergy, were invariably Greeks, the most famous of them being Saint Theophylact of Bulgaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theophylact_of_Bulgaria) (1078–1107). The Greek language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) quite early replaced Old Church Slavonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic) as the official language of the Archbishopric. All documents and even hagiographies of Bulgarian saints, for example the hagiography of Saint Clement of Ohrid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clement_of_Ohrid), were written in Greek. Despite this, the Slavonic liturgy was preserved on the lower levels of the Church for several centuries. The autocephaly of the Ohrid Archbishopric remained respected during the periods of Byzantine, Bulgarian, Serbian and Ottoman rule and the church continued to exist until its abolition in 1767, when it was abolished by the Sultan's decree, at the urging of the Greek church in Istanbul, and was placed under the jurisdiction of the patriarch of Constantinople.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Archbishopric_of_Ohrid#cite_note-4)."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarian_Archbishopric_of_Ohrid

There are other lies throughout your post but I though I'd start with the first one, the same point where you think you mention the macedonian self identity. I don't have the time to go through the rest of the lies right now, I'll do it later :laughing:

DejaVu
25-01-11, 03:24
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Flag_of_Greece.svg/800px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5c/Flag_of_Greece.svg)
GREEK FLAG OR IS IT?

THIS IS MAYBE THE REAL FLAG BUT ADOPTED TO GREECE ?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/32/British_East_India_Company_flag.svg/640px-British_East_India_Company_flag.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/32/British_East_India_Company_flag.svg)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_India_Company

WELCOME TO INVENTED FAKE COUNTRY GREECE

Elias2
25-01-11, 03:25
The Macedonian dynasty ruled the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians) from 867 to 1056, following the Amorian dynasty (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amorian_dynasty). During this period (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians), the Byzantine state reached its greatest expanse since the Muslim conquests (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_conquests), and the Macedonian Renaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Renaissance) in letters and arts began. The dynasty was named after its founder, Basil I the Macedonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_I_the_Macedonian), who was descended from the theme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thema) of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28theme%29). The dynasty's founder and many subsequent emperors were of Armenian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armenians) descent, hence the dynasty is also referred to by some authors as the Armenian Dynasty.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_dynasty#cite_note-0)

ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THE MACEDONIAN DYNASTY OF BYZANTIUM THAT RULED THE SAME TIME AS YOU SAY THE MACEDONIAN CHURCH WAS FORCEFULLY SHUT DOWN WERE LYERS? LOL WHY WOULD THEY SHUT DOWN THEIR OWN CHURCH!?!

Elias2
25-01-11, 03:26
deja vu stop spamming large pictures that have nothing to do with the discussion, I know its hard but try and be civilized.

how yes no 2
25-01-11, 03:30
DejaVu,

I have no doubt that Slavs were previously known as Veneti. That is even easy to prove as it is written by Jordanes in time when Slavs appeared in history. From what we know, Liburnians are most likely Veneti related, thus same origin.

However, questionable and harder to prove is relation to e.g. Etruscans (btw. Etruscans did come to Italy from Lydia in Asia minor...as Lydians they might have indeed been somewhat related to Veneti in origin and culture as Veneti origin from Paphlagonia Eneti...), Scordisci and ancient Macedonians... Etruscans could have been mix of I2a1, G and R1a...

A clue that Thracians, Scordisci, ancient Macedonians were Veneti related people could be that I2a2 is obviously mark of Veneti and also obviously present in Greece and Asia minor before so called Slav settlements on Balkan. But still even if they were I2a2 dominant, genetic origin does not equal cultural origin. People tend to change languages... look at rather recent spread of Latin derived languages...

my opinion is that there were 3 streams of I2a2 + R1a people from Asia minor:

1) Veneti who were kicked out from Paphlagonia after expedition with Cimmerians and settled east Europe and Adriatic coast

2) Cimmerians or Gommer as I have shown also match I2a2 hotspot in Asia minor and north of Black sea....I beleieve those people gave later Sarmatians (together with some G tribes native to Caucasus)...

3) spread through Thrace and Moesia...this spread could have participated perhaps dominantly in Scordisci, Illyrians and ancient Macedonians.... but it is difficult to prove this as we do not really know haplogroups and culture of those peoples.... perhaps with testring subbranches of haplogroups in more details...

also it is question how did R1a and I2a2 mix, as Illyrians are not likely to have been R1a, while Paphlagonia Eneti were both R1a and I2a2, and while R1a seems to be ancient old in Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia...

Anyway, I totally agree that massive/total replacement of population is a myth... but it could have happened that language and culture of people was shifted... e.g. Thracian language seems to have been closer to language of Balts than to the language of modern Slavic people... ancient Macedonians were likely hellenized people...at least their leadership was... Greek was in that time like english now due to towns of Greece being in that time strong merchant power with lot of colonies and with incredibly reach culture for that period....

DejaVu
25-01-11, 03:46
Macedonian Dynasty? You mean the fake macedonians? The Theme Macedonia and the Armenians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Dynasty
The Macedonian dynasty ruled the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians) from 867 to 1056, following the Amorian dynasty (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Amorian_dynasty). During this period (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians), the Byzantine state reached its greatest expanse since the Muslim conquests (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Muslim_conquests), and the Macedonian Renaissance (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_Renaissance) in letters and arts began. The dynasty was named after its founder, Basil I the Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Basil_I_the_Macedonian), who was descended from the theme (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thema) of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(theme)). The dynasty's founder and many subsequent emperors were of Armenian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Armenians) descent, hence the dynasty is also referred to by some authors as the Armenian Dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians
The Byzantine Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) reached its height under the Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_dynasty) emperors of the late 9th, 10th, and early 11th centuries, when it gained control over the Adriatic Sea (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Adriatic_Sea), southern Italy, and all of the territory of the tsar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tsar) Samuel (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Samuil_of_Bulgaria). The cities of the empire expanded, and affluence spread across the provinces because of the new-found security. The population rose, and production increased, stimulating new demand while also helping to encourage trade (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Trade). Culturally, there was considerable growth in education and learning (the "Macedonian Renaissance (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_Renaissance)"). Ancient texts were preserved and patiently re-copied. Byzantine art (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantine_art) flourished, and brilliant mosaics (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mosaic) graced the interiors of the many new churches. Though the empire was significantly smaller than during the reign of Justinian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Justinian_I), it was also stronger, as the remaining territories were less geographically dispersed and more politically and culturally integrated.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians)
WHAT LANGUAGES WAS USED IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE?
Language(s)Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Medieval_Greek), Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic), Armenian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Armenian_language), Old Church Slavonic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic) and other South Slavic languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/South_Slavic_languages), Syriac (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Syriac), Arabic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arabic), Medieval Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Medieval_Latin), Romance languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Romance_languages)

What is Macedonian language doing there if it does not exist?
Tito had a time machine?

Bulgarian language does not exist in Byzantine Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius
Saints Cyril and Methodius
The two brothers were born in Thessaloniki (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thessaloniki) - Cyril in 827-828 and Methodius in 815-820. Cyril was reputedly the youngest of seven brothers, according to the "Vita Cyrilli" ("The Life of Cyril"). Their father was Leo, a droungarios (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Droungarios) of the Byzantine theme (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Theme_(Byzantine_district)) of Thessaloniki, and their mother was Maria, who may have been a Slav.
There is no fact anyone was greek of them and only slav referred people where macedonians.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 03:56
Macedonian Lexicon - 16th Century

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p00.png (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/un-lexique-macedonien-du-xvi-siecle-p00.png)
Record of the Macedonian language
The texts presented for analysis in this article were produced by the Institut Detudes Slave, De L’universite De Paris in 1958, and are a study based on words and phrases from Macedonia in the 16th century. It is one of the earliest manuscripts written in a purely Macedonian vernacular tongue, and its content was collected from the village of Bogatsko, which is found in the region of Kostur in the south-west of Macedonia. The author remains anonymous and the only likely conclusion that can be drawn is that he may have spoken the Macedonian language natively or acquired it as an additional tongue due to living in close proximity to people who spoke it. The texts were written using the Greek alphabet, which was not uncommon in the Balkans during the Ottoman period, as similar examples with the Albanian and Vlach languages have demonstrated. Furthermore, the ‘Bulgarian’ label that was at times attached to the Macedonian language is employed in the texts, remnant terminology that had remained in use largely due to Macedonia’s former location within the Bulgarian Empire. Despite this, however, there can be no doubt that the dialect (and indeed location) of Bogatsko belongs to Macedonia, and not Bulgaria.
Macedonia during the Middle Ages
By the end of the 14th century, Macedonia had already been under Ottoman rule for a few decades, losing its status as a vassal state under the leadership of King Marko in 1395. As the greater region was finally deprived of any sense of liberty after the death of George Kastriot - Skenderbeg in 1444, forms of local state structure in Macedonia ceased to exist. This left the responsibility of retaining the culture, language and identity of the people with the religious institutions that were active in Macedonia at that time. The traditional influence of the Patriarchate at Constantinople that was prevalent during the Roman period had resurfaced again in the Ottoman Empire, as the latter looked to use the former to consolidate a single Roman Millet of Orthodox Christians within their domains. However, institutions such as the Archbishopric of Ohrid and even more significantly the hundreds of churches in Macedonia, played a pivotal role in ensuring the local culture, language and identity of the people would survive throughout the centuries of hardships.
Despite the absence of written works relating to statehood, material of a religious and educational character continued to flourish, and Church Slavonic, an essentially Macedonian tongue that was initially developed for such purposes in the 9th century, remained the literary language of the Macedonian people. However, the vernacular tongue of the Macedonians had co-existed with Church Slavonic and matured over the years, demonstrating a remarkable resilience and stability, which earned its introduced as the language of church services in Macedonia. The Macedonians were faced with foreign interference in both their lands and institutions, but their language had been largely solidified, evidenced in the fact that spoken Macedonian from the 16th century has a far greater affinity to spoken Macedonian dialects of today than it does to Church Slavonic. For well over half of a millenium, the Macedonian language has basically remained the same.
Vocabulary and Linguistic Characteristics
The texts reveal distinctive local features that have tenaciously survived the ages, and are still present in a number of today’s spoken Macedonian dialects. This fact reveals the remarkable consistency of the Macedonian language despite the lack of state support or schooling until the 20th century. Below is a sample of words from the texts, along with linguistic characteristics peculiar to the language of the Macedonians.
Animal/Food/Anatomy Terms - Mrave (Ants); Curvec (Worm), Sokol (Falcon), Vrapci (Birds), Golobi (Pigeons), Kokoshki (Chickens), Petel (Rooster), Ofci (Sheep), Kozi (Goats), Jagne (Lamb), Mechika (Bear), Elen (Deer), Lisica (Fox), Kon (Horse), Krusha (Pear), Meso (Meat), Sireni (Cheese), Jajca (Eggs), Vino (Wine), Sol (Salt), Zhito (Grain), Koska (Bone), Gas (Buttocks), Kuro (Penis), Made (Testicles).
Unique and Loan Words - The word Galuhci (Mice) is used, which can also be said as Gluhci or Glufci, and Macedonians are the only people who use this word. The word Veligden (Easter) is used, pronounced with the ‘g’ in Macedonian only. Turkish loans are very rare, one example being Jorgano (Blanket).
Dialectal and Jat Features - The Kostur region contains dialects that have retain several archaic characteristics, such as the word Ranka (Hand) rather than the more common Macedonian variant of Raka. An interesting trend is found in the use of multiple transitions of the Jat feature that is present in various Macedonian and Slavonic dialects. For example, the text employs the word Dedo (Grandfather) and not Djado, yet Hljap (Bread) and not Lep or Leb.
Definite Articles - The typical Macedonian postfixed definite article is exhibited in words such as Krushata (The Pear) and Dushata (The Soul). It is also noted in the word Patot (The Path) for ‘the path’ , although as the case of Jorgano (The Blanket) demonstrates, the ‘t’ at the end can also be dropped, as in several of today’s Macedonian dialects.
Words and Phrases, Unchanged for Centuries.
Containing a rich glossary and in excess of 300 words and phrases, the texts demonstrate the strength of the Macedonian language through preservation. Following is a comparison of sentences between the texts and the Macedonian dialect of Bitola as spoken today.
16th cent., Kostur dialect
21st cent., Bitola dialect
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostavi ni da spime, ela da jame, i da pieme, dol da pojdime, da rabotime.
Gospodine, brate, da si zdrav, da si prost, ostai ne da spiame, ela da jaime, i da piame, dolu da pojdime, da rabotime.
Imate hljap-o da kupime, imate vino da kupime, ot koja strana da pojdime vo Bogasko.
Imate lep da kupime, imate vino da kupime, od koja strana da pojdime vo Bogatsko.
As can be clearly noticed, most of the vocabulary and grammar is identical.
All of the elements that would later be required to rejuvinate the Macedonian people as they were shaking off centuries of subjugation, were present during this period. The language of the people had solidified, a tradition of heraldry and symbolism had developed which incorporated the emblem of a rapant lion and historical figures from Macedonia’s past, and the churches continued preserve the local customs and serve as cultural centres for the population. The significance of all these elements together cannot be overstated, the language of medieval Macedonia is the same as the language of the Macedonians today. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the larger amount of Macedonian literature from the Middle Ages has survived, much of it being looted and destroyed by Greek-speaking officials, clerics and teachers. Nevertheless, Macedonian as a language reached its current form centuries before the creation of the Balkan states in the 19th and 20th centuries.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 04:06
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic
Old Church Slavonic
Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic (abbreviated as OCS), also known as Old Bulgarian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Bulgarian) or Old Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Macedonian), was the first literary Slavic language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Slavic_language), based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thessaloniki) region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius), who used it for translation of the Bible (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bible) and other Ancient Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek_language) ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings.

The Macedonian recension is one of the oldest recensions of Old Church Slavonic. The recension is named so by modern scientists because its literary centre, Ohrid, is located in what today is referred to as the geographical region of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(region)), today part of the Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia). At that period, administratively Ohrid was in the province of Kutmichevitsa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kutmichevitsa) in the First Bulgarian Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire) until 1018.The main literary centre of this recension was the Ohrid Literary School (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ohrid_Literary_School), whose most prominent member and most likely founder, was Saint Clement of Ohrid (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Clement_of_Ohrid). The language variety that was used in the area started shaping Macedonian dialects (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_dialects). The Macedonian language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_language) was standardized in 1945 on the basis of the Central Macedonian dialects which evolved from the Macedonian recension. This recension is represented by the Codex Zographensis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Codex_Zographensis) and Marianus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Codex_Marianus), among others.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar_language
Bulgar (also Bolğar, Bulghar and Proto-Bulgarian) was the language of the Bulgars (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgars). Very few records exist of the language and little of them is understood. Considered by most linguists to have been a Turkic language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkic_languages), it is believed to have been spoken in the states founded by the Bulgars, namely Old Great Bulgaria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Great_Bulgaria) (in the 7th century), Danube Bulgaria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire) (from the 7th until the 9th century), and Volga Bulgaria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria) (until the 13th century or 14th century).

This is the real Bulgarian language not the new adopted slavic language.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 04:22
Because of Greeks are claiming to be macedonians its time to show who they are.


Origins of the inhabitants of Modern Greece:
But the revival was only for a time, and, in spite of Greek struggles, at the end of the tenth century Sclavonians formed almost the entire population of Macedonia, Epirus, continental Greece and the Peloponnese…….It was during these centuries, that what remained, if indeed anything remained, of even degenerate Hellenic blood absorbed or was absorbed into that of the Slav……Indeed, the Albanians appear to have done for Greece in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries something like that which that Sclavonians had done in the sixth and seventh….They number about 200,000 souls; and within a greater part of the districts occupied by Albanians at the present day the Greeks have been as completely expelled as the Celtic race in England by the Saxon. Unlike the Greek, for him the bonds of nationality are stronger than those of religion…..to assert that a Greek Christian is a Hellene is as reasonable as to call all Roman Catholics Italians; and to claim a Slav or Albanian as a Hellene because he speaks Greek, is much the same as calling an educated Russian French, or an Irishman English, because they prefer French or English to their own less developed languages. (A Monthly Review – Greece, Spoilt Child of Europe)

Albanian origins of the liberators and leaders of Modern Greece:
The chief authority was conceded to the Albanian shipowners; George Konduriottes of Hydra was elected president of Greece, and Botasses of Spetzas vice-president…..The Greeks are the most prejudived of all Europeans when there is a question of the purity of the Hellenic race, and no people regards education with more favour; yet with all this nationality and pedantry they intrusted their public affairs, in a period of great difficulty, to two men who could not address them in the Greek language. (George Finlay, History of the Greek Revolution)

The castle of Karytena, even in its ruins, has a proud feudal aspect, and was again, early in our century, the stronghold of one of the most famous and notorious of the revolutionary chiefs – Colocotroni. He ranks as a hero in that war……..He is described as of the Albanian type. (J. P Mahhafy, Greek Pictures)

……the liberators of Greece…..Nine or ten of them performed the Albanian national dance, to the sound of a bad fiddle and a little jingling guitar played with a quill, for the amusement of her Majesty, who did not seem enchanted with this exhibition….these men, who were exposing themselves in this absurd manner, were the far-famed Colocotroni, Nikitas, surnamed the Turkophagos, or Turk-eater, Makryani, Vasso of Montenegro, Kota Botzaris,, and others equally celebrated…….this was merely the dance of the Albanians, a totally distinct race of men from the Greeks. (Blackwood’s Magazine, XLIII)

Athens, twenty-five years ago, was only an Albanian village. The Albanians formed, and still form, almost the whole of the population of Attica; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood. Athens has been rapidly peopled with men of all kinds and nations..........Albanians form about one-fourth of the population of the country; they are in majority in Attica, in Arcadia, and in Hydra..…..(Edmond About, Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day)

Reflections on the East Roman Empire:
Until 1821, Greeks knew that there had once been a Christian empire with its capital at Constantinople, but they did not think of it as a Greek empire, and they certainly didn’t call it the Byzantine Empire. (Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms)

Philhellenism; its aim and impact:
Most Greeks did not share Byron’s views and would not have understood his allusions. They did not think of themselves as Greeks at all – and certainly not as Hellenes…but as Christians or Orthodox. (N. Hammond, Greece – Old and New)

…Philhellehism was a sort of social disease, caused by hallucinations and the by the illusion of finding in the present mongrel inhabitants of Morea and Attica the descendants of the ancient Hellenes. Subsequent contact of Greece with Europe has already considerably modified these ideas, as the modern Greek begins to pass for what he is: a semi-barbarian, a not yet cultivated citizen, and already a spoilt savage……Our classical recollections will have been proved a fallacy…only because they inhiabit a soil where the Parthenon was built. (Baron Augustus Jochmus, The Syrian War and the Decline of the Ottoman Empire)

It is certainly unlikely that before the infiltration of European Philhellenism the inhabitants of Kastri knew (or cared much, for that matter) that they were indeed the inhabitants of Delphi. (Stathis Gourgouris, Dream Nation)

The foundations of Neo-Hellenic Culture
It is significant that many of the nineteenth-century alterations to the Acropolis were carried out at the instigation of Germans, whose contribution to the modern Greeks’ sense of their classical heritage was crucial………….. an attempt was made to Hellenize the Greek collective consciousness, and through katharevousa, to “purify” the modern Greek language. (Katerina Zacharia, Hellenisms)

University of Athens - This, was the first institution of higher learning in the independent kingdom of the Hellenes, was founded by King Otto on the German model. (John Koliopoulos, Greece – The Modern Sequel)

The new sate did not attach itself to the immediate past, as it had been preserved in the popular memory, but rather adapted itself to the convenient image of the ancient Greek past already created in the West. Otto’s father, King Ludwig I of Bavaria, was obsessed with ancient Greece and brought up his children with the aspiration that one day one of them would reign over this glorious land. (Discourses of Collective Identity in Central and Southeast Europe, Texts and Commentaries)

In 1834 it was decided to create Athens the capital of the independent Kingdom of Greece. A German architect, Schaubert, was employed to plan the wide streets, the squares, the boulevards: and so Athens, which in 1834 was a village of five thousand inhabitants, has become in 1936 a city of over four hundred and fifty thousand people. (H. V. Morton, In the steps of St. Paul)

Ancient Sparta has entirely perished….New Sparta is a creation of King Otho, who has formed the useless project of resuscitating all the great names of Greece. It is a governmental and commercial town, composed entirely of shops, barracks, and public offices. (Edmond About, Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day)

THE FAKE GREEKS DONT EVEN KNOW THEIR OWN FAKE HISTORY

DejaVu
25-01-11, 04:37
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary.png)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary172.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary172.png)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary173.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary173.png)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary173a.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary173a.png)
http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary174.png (http://i149.photobucket.com/albums/s43/truemacedonian/geary174.png)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 04:40
Greek language.

Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.

Here is your continuity

TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 04:49
http://www.devletarsivleri.gov.tr/Forms/pgArchiveMain.aspx
PDF document in Turkish state archives web site.
It includes a total of 153 reported incidents done by Greeks in Macedonia between the years 1850 to 1913.

All of them are from Ottoman Empire archives. I checked some of them. It includes all kinds of oppression, beatings, religious conversion by force, rape and murders on Macedonians, Turks, Vlachs, Pomaks, Jews, Albanians etc. and protestant Greek community.

It seems like they tried to convert Macedonians by using methods of terrorism, to speak Greek language, be the member of Greek orthodox patriarch and/or Greeks. There are testimonies and statements of the victims and detailed reports.

You can even write a book with this document because it contains evidences with witness statements.

These are some of the headlines;

Quote: Florina'nın Vesetran nahiyesindeki kilisenin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne
ait olduguna dâir Bulgar halka bir belge imzalattırmak amacıyla baskı
yapan nahiye müdürünün hareketinin uygun olmadıgı ve kendisinin
uyarıldıgı, otuz kadar Rum eskiyasının, Noska nahiyesine baglı Prekopan
köyünde biri Bulgar papazı olmak üzere iki kisiyi katlettikleri ve civar
köylerdeki Bulgar ahalinin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne geçmeleri hususunda
baskı yaptıkları.
4 Ekim 1904
Florina'nın Vesetran nahiyesindeki kilisenin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne
ait olduguna dâir Bulgar halka bir belge imzalattırmak amacıyla baskı
yapan nahiye müdürünün hareketinin uygun olmadıgı ve kendisinin
uyarıldıgı, otuz kadar Rum eskiyasının, Noska nahiyesine baglı Prekopan
köyünde biri Bulgar papazı olmak üzere iki kisiyi katlettikleri ve civar
köylerdeki Bulgar ahalinin Rum Patrikhanesi'ne geçmeleri hususunda
baskı yaptıkları.
4 Ekim 1904

It mentions about one Greek individual in Florina-Vesetran, forcing local people of Bulgarian patriarchy to sign false papers about a church belonging to the Greek patriarchy and he organize a Greek gangs of 30 men to force the inhabitants of a village named Prekopan to be the member of Greek patriarchy. This Greek gang also murders 2 men, one being a Bulgarian patriarchy cleric. October 4th, 1904




Quote: Florina'da ahalisi Makedon olan Zehlince köyünü basan silahlı Rum eskiyasının on kisiyi katledip, altı kisiyi de yaralayarak kaçtıkları.
29 Kasım 1904
Florina'da ahalisi Makedon olan Zehlince köyünü basan silahlı Rum eskiyasının on kisiyi katledip, altı kisiyi de yaralayarak kaçtıkları.
29 Kasım 1904

Armed Greek gangs comes to the village named Zehlince in Florina while local Macedonian inhabitants doing wedding ceremony and murders 10 people, leaving 6 injured. November, 29th 1904







Quote: Altmıs-yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin Kesriye civarındaki
Osince köyü Makedon papazını yaraladıkları, Drenova köyü kilisesinde bulunan kitaplar ile diger bazı evrakı yaktıkları.
2 Agustos 1905
Altmıs-yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin Kesriye civarındaki
Osince köyü Makedon papazını yaraladıkları, Drenova köyü kilisesinde bulunan kitaplar ile diger bazı evrakı yaktıkları.
2 Agustos 1905

60-70 armed Greek gangs injures a Macedonian cleric around the village of Osince and same gang goes to the village of Drenova and burns lots of books and papers inside a church. August 2nd, 1905...







Quote: Yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin, ahalisi Ulah olan Görice'nin Plas kulübeleri köyünü muhasara ederek kiliseye girdikleri, Ulah lisanıyla yazılı kitapları yaktıkları, halkı kiliselerde Ulahça ayin yapmamaları ve Rum olduklarını kabul etmeleri yolunda tehdit ettikleri, sonra da yanlarına iki kisi ile bir miktar hayvan ve malzeme alarak kaçtıklarının bildirildigi. Rumların sürekli baskı ve saldırılarına karsı tedbirler alınması ve bu nedenle köylerinde bir askeri müfreze bulundurulması hakkında köy ahalisinin arzuhali.
5 Agustos 1905
Yetmis kisilik bir Rum eskiya çetesinin, ahalisi Ulah olan Görice'nin Plas kulübeleri köyünü muhasara ederek kiliseye girdikleri, Ulah lisanıyla yazılı kitapları yaktıkları, halkı kiliselerde Ulahça ayin yapmamaları ve Rum olduklarını kabul etmeleri yolunda tehdit ettikleri, sonra da yanlarına iki kisi ile bir miktar hayvan ve malzeme alarak kaçtıklarının bildirildigi. Rumların sürekli baskı ve saldırılarına karsı tedbirler alınması ve bu nedenle köylerinde bir askeri müfreze bulundurulması hakkında köy ahalisinin arzuhali.
5 Agustos 1905

Greek gang with 70 men goes to the church in a village named Gorice-Plas where mostly Vlach people lives and gathers everyone in the village at the church. They forcing them to quit praying in Vlach language and speaking Greek only. They threatens Vlachs that if they don't accept Greek identity and continue to use Vlach language, they will kill them. After the incident, they take few animal, some food and 2 men as a hostage and leaves the village. Local villagers demands Turkish government to build a local police station with soldiers in the village to protect them against never-ending oppression of Greek gangs. August 5th, 1905

DejaVu
25-01-11, 04:56
Modern Greeks always talk proudly about their so-called "Makedonias Agonas", a war they state was to liberate the 'Greek' Macedonians and 'Greek' Macedonia from Turkish rule. In reality, the so-called "Makedonias Agonas" was nothing more then a war of genocide against the indigenous Macedonian population with the aim of annexing Aegean Macedonia to modern Greece. Ironically, the biggest allies of the modern Greeks in this endeavor besides the English were the Turks. Below is a small collection of photographs from that period which document Turko-Greek collaboration.

The infamous photo of Greek Bishop Karavangelis blessing the Turkish guns prior to their use against Macedonians.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/germanos-karavangelis.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/germanos-karavangelis.jpg)

Another photo of Karavangelis and his Turkish allies.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/karavangelis_turk.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/karavangelis_turk.jpg)

Greeks and their Turkish allies, notice both flags in the background
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/georgios-yianglis-with-some-of-his-men.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/georgios-yianglis-with-some-of-his-men.jpg)

Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/the-dogiama-brothers.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/the-dogiama-brothers.jpg)

More Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/the-chieftains-spyros-and-adam.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/the-chieftains-spyros-and-adam.jpg)

Greek bandit posing with Turkish Allie
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/yiannis-ramnalis-and-young-turk-officer.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/yiannis-ramnalis-and-young-turk-officer.jpg)

Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/apostolos-matopoulos-and-young-turk-officer.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/apostolos-matopoulos-and-young-turk-officer.jpg)

Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/grekoman_struggler3.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/grekoman_struggler3.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Young_Turk_Revolution_-_Flayer_for_the_constitution.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Young_Turk_Revolution_-_Flayer_for_the_constitution.png)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 05:06
Here's an article from Time magazine date March 25 1935

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/ar...8601-1,00.html (http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,748601-1,00.html)

Farewell to Venizelos

The back door of Greece opens on the mountainous Balkan hinterland, its front door on the Mediterranean. By the sea, greatness as well as grief have come to Greece. Three weeks ago from the sea, from Greece's greatest island. Crete, came Revolution, led by that greatest of modern Greeks, sly, old Eleutherios Venizelos, against the "Balkan policy" and the monarchist intrigues of Premier Panayoti Tsaldaris.

Old Venizelos had planned merely a show of force and a quick coup d'état. Instinctively he seized first the key war boats in Greece's Navy. But the thing turned into a civil war on land (TIME, March 18). Seventy thousand loyalists and some airplanes crumpled the rebel army of 30,000 planeless Greeks from the islands, from Macedonia and Thrace. Venizelos had no stomach for civil war. For all the shooting, the revolt ended with only 100 dead on both sides. The Government, however, promised to execute three times as many. Last week Venizelos, his second wife and a score of the high command fled from Crete to the nearby Italian island of Kasos, then on to the bigger Italian island of Rhodes off the coast of Turkey. Though he was still alive and safe, the world was last week writing Venizelos' political obituary. In Athens the crowd cheered winning General Kondylis and Premier Tsaldaris to the echo. They had won a great victory, but for what?

As recently as 1821 Greece was a servile Turkish province. It was largely with Russian backing that a few Greek Christians won freedom for the barren lower tip of the Greek peninsula. For the rest of the 19th Century the Greeks acquired a shameful record of defeat in battle. They acquired more territory only through the benevolence of the Great Powers, chiefly Britain. Then green currants from the Ionian Islands were the main economic support of the dismal little nation.

Venizelos changed all that. Born on Crete, equipped with an Athens law degree, he soon developed an extraordinary flair for leadership, a marvelous sense of situation, a nearly perfect aim with a revolver and one of the greatest poker faces in Europe. Crete was then still Turkish. Venizelos rapidly led two revolts, won Cretan autonomy, the first step toward union with Greece. The Greek Crown sent a chuckleheaded prince as Commissioner to Crete. With another revolt, Venizelos kicked him out because the prince looked on Cretans as a subject race. His local fame as a Cretan established. Venizelos moved to Athens and proceeded to take charge of all Greece.

Starting as an ordinary member of the Greek Assembly, Venizelos brought into being a national assembly to revise the Constitution, from which he emerged as Premier. After reorganizing the Army and Navy, he sized up Greek military pretensions as a hollow bluff, saw that Greece's future depended on the good will of the Powers, proceeded to play the future that way. He broke with previous Greek policy by joining the Balkan League of Bulgaria and Serbia and ganging on Turkey in the first Balkan War. This time Greece won. In the squabble over the spoils, alert Venizelos formed another alliance with Serbia and ganged on Bulgaria. Spoils: most of Macedonia and the Aegean Islands, the most productive lands in the realm and 100% more people.

When the World War broke, Venizelos brought up against the Danish stubbornness of Greece's Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg King Constantine I, who favored Germany. He hypocritically maintained "a very benevolent neutrality" toward the Allies. Pro-ally Venizelos was anathematized by an Archbishop of the Greek Church:
"Against this traitor Venizelos we have invoked the following injuries: the ulcers of Job, the whale of Jonah, the leprosy of Naaman, the bite of Death, the shivering of the dying, the thunderbolt of Hell, and the malediction of God and man. We shall call for the same injuries upon those who at the coming elections shall vote for the Traitor Venizelos, and we shall further pray for their hands to wither and for them to become deaf and blind."

Unimpressed, Venizelos seceded from the kingdom, forced Constantine to abdicate in favor of his son and declared war against the Central Powers. Though Greece did not do much in war, Venizelos had earned a place at the Peace Conference table. His "enticing, almost ethereal, charm," and the fact that he knew more about the map of Europe than anyone else, did the rest. Spoils: most of Thrace and part of Asiatic Turkey.

At home, however, the Greeks were losing part of Venizelos' plunder to a resuscitated Turkey under Mustapha Kemal Pasha. When Venizelos rushed home the Greek electorate, with one of the world's worst non sequiturs, repudiated Venizelos and called back King Constantine. Once again Venizelos turned his hand to revolution. Back as Prime Minister, he deposed Constantine's son George and resigned just before Greece turned Republic in 1924.

Greece had improved its economic situation (tobacco, wine, textiles, leather goods) but it was still "the poorest nation in Europe.'' Partial cause of this was the unprecedented importation of 1,400,000 indigent Greeks from Turkey and Bulgaria in exchange for deported Turks and Bulgars. Without Venizelos, Greece entered a typical Balkan shambles of dictatorships and coups d'état, with the royalists always gaining. The old split between the Balkan interests of the repopulated peninsula and the world-trading Mediterranean interests of the islands began to widen, complicated by the unreconciled Macedonians of the north. Finally, in 1928, Venizelos cashed in his popularity for one more Premiership, made alliances with Mussolini and Mustapha Kemal, reasserted the Mediterranean policy of a true island Greek, and got out.

Last year he was struck with dismay when his successor, Premier Tsaldaris, concluded the Balkan Pact with Yugoslavia, Rumania and Turkey. Venizelos saw that Yugoslavia was bound to get into trouble with Italy and Albania, that Greece might have to fight to pull Yugoslavia's chestnuts out of the fire. He objected also to the fact that Italy had not been consulted. Himself nobody's cat's-paw, he could not help feeling that no Greek but himself could ever do anything right.

All his life Venizelos had worked to consolidate Greeks in Greece. The desperate adventure this month of his last revolution between the peninsula on the one hand, the islands and Macedonia on the other, marked the first time he had ever fought to split Greeks. And for the first time he failed. Once more ''the shivering of the dying and the malediction of man'' fell upon Venizelos. The 71-year-old man, who fled last week to a swank Italian hotel in Rhodes with a private beach, groaned, "I am tired by the hardships and disappointments of the last few days."

Last week the Greek Government sealed up seven Venizelos houses, including the great Athens mansion-fort with its $5,000,000 (reputed) library, preparatory to confiscating them. As Mussolini turned a cold shoulder to all Greek attempts to extradite the person of the rebel leader, old Venizelos prepared to end his days in exile with his second wife* and the two sons of his first wife, a beautiful Cretan girl dead these 40 years. He smiled sourly when he heard that his opponent. General Kondylis. who was once his ally and fellow-conspirator, had said, "When conditions become normal, the people will be given the opportunity to decide whether to restore the monarchy."

Said Venizelos, who had doubled the area of Greece, deposed its Kings and given it a place in world politics far out of proportion to its real importance: "All my life with all my heart I wanted the union of Crete and Greece. I wanted it to be sustained by profound mutual affection. I swear that was my only desire. . . . Greece will never see me again."

* His second wife is the daughter of the late Greek-British textile exporter, John Schilizzi, who left her $15,000,000 in 1908.

Venizelos was just a British spy like all the other high Greek officers and patriarchy at that time. They were under the control of British and everything they did was planned by them already, including the population exchange and invasion of Anatolia. After we kicked them out from Anatolia at 1922, most of his colleagues escaped to the England, became British citizen and lived a wealthy life.

They were responsible from the death of ~500.000 people and forced expulsion of 2 million more.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 05:10
THE MACEDONIAN AGITATION
The Times, London, April 12, 1901, pp. 3-4

THE MACEDONIAN AGITATION

(From our own correspondent.)
Vienna, April 11.

A correspondent of the news sheet Information has had an interview with M. Sarafof, the president of the Bulgarian Macedonian Committee, who was arrested a few days ago at Sofia. M. Sarafof made an instructive statement. He said that the whole movement had been misunderstood. It must be divided into two periods. During the first period it was under the leadership of men who were in close connection with the Bulgarian court itself and had been employed by several successive Ministries. The latter used the committee and the influence which it had in the country in order to fortify their own position, and to carry out the programmes of their parties. M. Sarafof continued thus: -
“In 1895 we young men were sent to Macedonia to prepare an insurrection, or, at all events, to try and start an outbreak of some kind, if only to show Europe that Prince Ferdinand constituted a powerful factor in the Balkan Peninsula and that his deposition would be a greater danger for the peace of the continent. It was only after these disturbances that the Powers, one after the other, recognized Prince Ferdinand as chief of the new Bulgarian dynasty. This first phase of the Macedonian movement, owing to the fact that it was subordinated to different party interests, acquired no hold on the bulk of the population in Macedonia. We young people have therefore been endeavouring for some years past to separate the Macedonian cause from Bulgarian domestic politics. If the rulers of the Principality now declare that they cannot tolerate us as a State within the State, it shows that we have at least succeeded in emancipating ourselves from the pernicious influence of the Bulgarian government. It is only because we are no longer disposed to sacrifice ourselves for this or that party, and regard the liberation of Macedonia as a question of honour for the entire people, that the Bulgarian Government is persecuting us….
“It is a grievous error to suppose that we seek to acquire Macedonia on behalf of Bulgaria. We Macedonians consider ourselves to be an entirely separate national element, and we are not in the least disposed to allow our country to be seized by Bulgaria, Servia, or Greece. We will, in fact, oppose any such incorporation with all our might. Macedonia must belong to the Macedonians. The misunderstanding has arisen through our residing in Bulgaria. The circumstance of our having prepared a Macedonian insurrection while living in this country led to the conclusion that we were aiming at a union between the two Slav provinces. That is, however, perfectly absurd. If we were to be expelled from Bulgaria and were to settle in Switzerland nobody would suppose that we intended to liberate Macedonia on behalf of Switzerland; we merely go where we find the most favourable opportunities for our revolutionary work….
But, wherever we may be, we wish to keep our movement distinct from the national aspirations of the independent Balkan States. We shall energetically resist any attempt on the part of those States to secure Macedonia for themselves. We have been reproached with wanting to disturb the peace of Europe. That leaves us indifferent. What do we infortunate Slavs care for the peace of Europe! Russia has frequently promised us that she will soon take our cause in hand. Only a short time ago a Russian statesman told me that we should be patient, as whenever Russia was no longer occupied in East Asia she would come forward in favour of the autonomy of Macedonia. My own conviction is, however, that Russian diplomacy will first begin to think of us when it decides to realize its own ideal of the conquest of Constantinople. Its object will than be not the emancipation of Macedonia, but its subjugation. Consequently, my friends and myself are resolved to separate entirely the movement we are prompting from Russia’s Balkan policy. Without in any way wishing to identify our efforts with the policy of Vienna, I am nevertheless of opinion that Austro-Hungarian aspirations are infinitely less dangerous for the autonomy of Macedonia than are those of Russia. The conquest of Macedonia by Austria-Hungary is impossible, owing to the composition of that Monarchy and to the resistance which such a plan would find on the part of all the Balkan peoples…..
“I must, at the same time, clearly state that we neither ask for, nor would accept, any official support of our movement from Austria-Hungary. We will have nothing to do either with official Bulgaria or with official Servia, nor yet with official Austria-Hungary. We are revolutionists, and count only upon one-half of the peoples of Europe. In order to put and end to the misunderstandings among the Slav States of the Balkans concerning the movement in which we are engaged, two of our friends will shortly go to Servia and then proceed further in order to deliver lectures. Macedonia must no longer be a source of dissension among the Balkan countries. Emancipation must form the basis upon which the federation of those countries can be founded.”

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Pro Armenia, Paris, 25 avril 1901, p. 87

Nouvelles d’Orient

« […]
Boris Sarafov avait fait des déclarations fort importantes à un correspondant de l’Information de Vienne. Elles se résument en quelques points capitaux : 1º Le mouvement macédonien n’est pas un mouvement bulgare ; les Macédoniens constituent une nationalité particulière qui ne veut s’agréger à la Bulgarie, ni à la Serbie, ni à la Grèce ; 2º le malentendu provient de ce que l’action macédonienne avait pour centre Sofia. Expulsés de Bulgarie, les Macédoniens réfugiés en Suisse deviendraient-ils suspects de vouloir annexer leur pays à la République helvétique ; 3º la Russie ne viendrait en aide à la Macédoine que pour réaliser son plan de conquête de Constantinople ; elle ne l’émanciperait pas, mais la subjuguerait. Le mouvement macédonien doit donc être entièrement séparé de toute action russophile ; 4º il ne doit pas subir non plus d’influences austro-hongroises, bien que le danger de la conquête du pays soit de ce côté bien moins imminent que du côté russe ; 5º on reproche aux Macédoniens de mettre en péril la paix européenne : cela les laisse indifférents ; ils ne sont point les gardiens de cette paix précaire et l’Europe n’a qu’à faire exécuter les engagements pris par traité comme c’est son droit et son devoir.
Telles sont les déclarations de Boris Sarafov.
[…] »

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The french text translated using google translate:

Boris Sarafov had made extremely important statements with a correspondent of the Information of Vienna. They are summarized in some most important points: 1º the movement Macedonian is not a Bulgarian movement; the Macedonians constitute a particular nationality which wants to incorporate themselves in Bulgaria, neither in Serbia, nor in Greece; 2º the misunderstanding comes from what the action Macedonian had as a Sofia center. Expelled of Bulgaria, the Macedonians taken refuge in Switzerland would become suspect to want to annex their country with the Swiss Republic; 3º Russia would come to assistance of Macedonia only to carry out its plan of conquest of Constantinople; it does not émanciperait it, but would subjugate it. The movement Macedonian must thus be entirely separated from any Russophile action; 4º it should not be subject to Austro-Hungarians influences either, although the danger of the conquest of the country is on this side much less imminent than on the Russian side; 5º one reproaches the Macedonians for putting in danger European peace: that leaves them indifferent; they are not the guards of this precarious peace and Europe does not have that to make carry out the commitments entered into by treaty as it is its right and its duty. Such are the declarations of Boris Sarafov. The original from The Times:

http://i52.tinypic.com/2ebad6h.jpg (http://i52.tinypic.com/2ebad6h.jpg)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 05:23
"Macedonia will be independent and the Macedonians will remain Macedonians.
If Europe thinks otherwise, will be wrong? If the Bulgarians consider on the Bulgarisation of Macedonia, these are illusions. What the Macedonians want is the autonomy for their country, with the intervention of Europe in their favor. No division, no annexation to another state; Macedonia is unique and to the Macedonians. Who can oppose the creation of an autonomous Macedonia? Greeks, for example. Greeks have large claims, it is clear, but after the war of 1897 that they cause, they verified their military incompetence. Macedonians should be recognized and they should be helped to create their own autonomous state in the Balkans, safe and civilized. These people are talented people who would do great deeds. "

Source: Routier Gaston, "La Macеdoine et la question macеdonienne", Paris, 1903


The ereyer Dimitar from Krivopalanechko on his ethnic origin in 1848, he wrote:
"I was born a Macedonian ... It was written by God to my country to suffer from the Greeks, so they do not give us peace even today, although everyone knows that Macedonia was an older state of their empire."


"... To be known, when the villagers from my village Radibush Krivorechka Palanka, appointed me for a teacher in our village school, and for Rankovce and Krivi Kamen, for 1,800 pennies a year. I was born from my father priest Dimitar and mother Vaskresija as 7th child of twelve children, five males and seven females. The Slavic letter I learnt from my father, Dimitar Macedonian, who is called like that because we are Macedonians, not Greeks, and his father was called Joseph priest, and his grandfather Stojmen priest. I took his nickname Macedonian as well, not because of my father and my grandfather, but to know that we are Slavs of Macedonia. "
- (Ден Голема Богородица на 1846. Ѓорѓи Македонски, 15, т.Први, 282)


"... There are still those that today's inhabitants of Macedonia do not consider neither for Serbs or Bulgarians, but a separate ethnicity, probably descendants of the ancient Macedonians. ... "
- Slishkovikj Jakov, "Albania and Macedonia", Sarajevo 1904, pp. 160




http://www.gate.net/~mango/Rizospastis.htm (http://www.gate.net/~mango/Rizospastis.htm)

Letters to "Rizospastis" (Journal of the Greek Communist Party)

ELECTION PROGRAM OF THE WORKERS AND PEASANTS' UNITED FRONT, August 1932.

The United Front of the Workers and Peasants declares that the struggle for support of the oppressed nationalities: the Macedonians, Turks and Armenians is a general task of all the working population in Greece. This struggle should be directed against spiritual, political and economic oppression and against the forcible hellenization practiced in schools. Schools in the mother tongue of the population should be demanded. The mother tongue should be used in the various government agencies and also in the courts of justice. A struggle should be also waged against the fascist bands, against the massacres, against the arson supported by the government of Venizelos and by all bourgeois parties; against the law which separates the Jews and Turks in different voting lists; against expropriation of the land. The right to self-determination including full secession for all the oppressed nationalities which have been forcibly annexed to Greece should be demanded. (Rizospastis, ar. 340, August 33, 1932, p.1)


PERSECUTION OF MACEDONIANS IN THE DRAMA REGION, April 6, 1934

The whole bourgeois press reported yesterday that at the village of Drenova, region of Drama, which is inhabited by Macedonians, and "anarcho-communist" organization which intended..."to blow up and set fire to the whole town of Drama, was discovered." A police detail from Drama raided the village and arrested 8 peasants. In fact, this was a brutal attack against the communists who were presented as anarchists, and whose names were compared with those of the hated Komitajis, the obvious aim being to stifle their struggle for the rights of the national minorities. The workers and the peasants of Greece should protest against the deportations of the Macedonians, rejecting the slander of an alleged agreement between the communists on the one hand, and the Komitajis, fascist agents of the Bulgarian capitalists, on the other. [Rizospatis, ar.27,(6963), 6.IV.1933, p.1]


COMMUNIST LEAFLETS IN SERRES, April 15, 1934

On April 15, 1934, the town square was covered with leaflets with revolutionary proclamations calling upon the soldiers to struggle for a solution to their problems and against the beastly reign of terror. Officers imprisoned the soldiers who had read the leaflets, asking them to reveal the names of the individuals who distributed them. The most barbarous methods were used against us Macedonians, soldiers of the 6th Heavy Artillery Regiment. The majority of us are illiterate, we do not know Greek and therefore we frequently do not understand their orders. The officers tried to teach us to read and write, but their efforts were abandoned too soon and were preformed so improperly that none of us learned anything. Following this, the 12 soldiers who did not learn anything were punished by 5 days in jail, each. Two days later we were given one tomato and stuffed pepper each, which is not enough for anyone. The 140 soldiers, after they have been given this food, gathered around the kettle and, in spite of the officers' threats, demanded better food for the value of 25 Drachmas. Eventually, their bowls were filled up with food which had been left in the kettle.Serres, April 15, 1934 A Macedonian {Rizospastis, ar.195 (7132), 25.IV.1934, p.3 }


OPPRESION OF THE MACEDONIANS IN VODEN, June 6, 1934

Voden. - Here, in Voden, and in our whole district, in the heart of Macedonia, here where we Macedonians do not know any other language but our own Macedonian, various agents of the Greek capitalism force us to speak Greek. Consequently, they threaten us constantly with expulsion to Bulgaria, they call us Komitajis, expropriate our fields which we have drenched with our sweat just to produce a piece of bread. In addition, they deprive us of the freedom which our fathers won after many years of struggle in which they gave thair lives for the liberation of Macedonia. We live under the yoke of Greek capitalism, literally as slaves.

In the elementary schools, the young children who speak their own language are beaten every day. Particularly here in Voden, the henchman and fascist Georgiadis beats the children if they speak their Macedonian tongue, if they wrap their notebooks in red paper, or if they use red ink or red colors.

Second Lieutenant Tagaris is another "great hero," anti- communist and persecutor of Macedonians. In his slandering of communism in our district, he does not even shrink from such nonsense as saying that we are not communists but rather Bulgarian Komitajis etc.

Not long ago, a number of Macedonian comrades were arrested, and Tagaris threatened them with grave consequences if they did not stop agitating among the youth. A number of other comrades, Prosfigis, were arrested together with them. They were repeatedly told that the local people were Bulgarian and Komitajis.

To these agents of capitalism the Macedonians keep repeating that they cannot be intimidated by anything and that they will continue their struggle until they attain their full liberation.

Voden, June 6, 1934 A Macedonian correspondent; [Rizospastis, ar.89 (7026), 10.VI.1934, p.3]


MACEDONIANS IN THE ANTI-FASCIST FRONT; June 8, 1934

Lerin (Florina). - It has been some time now that the whole bourgeois press launched a campaign against the Macedonian people. It represents a part of the fascist and military measures which the Government of Tsaldaris carries out in its orientation towards an increasingly brutal oppression of the people's masses in Macedonia.

The campaign is waged not only by the bourgeois press but also by all the other agents og Greek capitalism. The Chief of the Security Forces here, Karamaunas, whenever he meets us on the streets threatens us with the words: "You are Bulgarians and if by any chance I discover any sort of organized movement, I will beat you without mercy and then I will deport you."

We Macedonians should rise with greater courage and by means of increased activities should reject this campaign because it brings us an even more brutal oppression, starvation, misery and war. Appropriate activities have also been undertaken at the Anti-Fascist Congress. Five hundred drachmas were donated to cover the expenses of our representative. However, this will not do. We should start forming anti-fascist associations, and we should bravely reject the yoke imposed by our oppresors, and create a free and indipendent Macedonia.

A nationally conscious Macedonian, [Rizospastis, ar.87, (7024), 8.VI.1934, p.1]


ARRESTS AND TORTURE OF MACEDONIANS IN THE SERRES AREA, June 24, 1934

Macedonian peasants, especially the poor ones, are dragged through the jails because of unpaid debts of only 60 to 100 Drachmas. Six days ago, in addition to those arrested for their unpaid debts a number of peasants from the village of Frashtani were arrested and accused of supplying the Komitajis. Nine more peasants were taken to jail from Xeropotamo(?) and charged likewise. These two villages are located within two hours walking distance from Serres and seven hours from the Bulgarian border. All these poor Macedonians do not know Greek and only speak their own language. Under torture they were forced to admit that Komitajis had been passing through their village.

Many convicts from the prisons at Serres, [Rizospastis, ar.105 (7042), 26.VI.1934, p.I]


OPPRESION AND PLUNDER OF MACEDONIANS, July 19, 1934

The following is a letter we have received from Kozani which on one hand demonstrates the suffering by the Macedonian minority at the hands of the captains- plunderers who are in the service of the Greek democracy, and on the other hand, the latest reckless exploitation of woods belonging to Macedonians by various capitalists who want to impose their monopoly over the forestry industry and to expropriate the poor lumberjacks. Because of this, all those employed in the wooded areas should rise against the methods of reckless exploitation which are now being applied in he forests.

Comrade "Rizospastis,"

The knife has cut deep into the flesh and reached the bone. The Greek government has struck us a heavy blow. It has left us at the mercy of Captain Marko Papaterpov, an Andart and goat thief who robs us of our forests which provide a living for 2000 Macedonian families from Dolni and Gorni Nestram. The plundering of the woods have aroused all the villagers, young and old alike. We oppressed Macedonians address you and ask you to help us in our struggle becuase you have been leading us for some time now. Our village commune demands your support as well as the support of all the workers throughout the country.

Nestram, July 19, 1934 Many Macedonians, [Rizospastis, ar.130 (7067), 22.VII.1934, p.4]


BEATINGS AND ARRESTS OF MACEDONIAN SOLDIERS, August 12, 1934

Voden (Edessa) August - We Macedonians make up the majority in the 30th Regiment and therefore our life here is very difficult. Whenever anyone utters a Macedonian word he is punished with 10-15 days in jail. We are called "ignoramuses" and are constantly beaten. Disciplinary measures are taken every day and we are often ordered to do forced labor. In spite of als this we shell continue to speak our language and to sing our revolutionary songs. We are prepared to resist the pressure against us, which is being made in order "to throw" us into war and we shell fight fascism.

A Mecedonian correspondent from the 30th Regiment in Voden, [Rizospastis, ar.152 (7089), 12.VIII.1934, p.5 ]


"RIZOSPASTIS" CONCERNING THE ILINDEN UPRISING, August 2,1934.
"ILINDEN, THE HEROIC UPRISING OF 'I'HE MACEDONIAN PEOPLE"

The revolutionary traditions of the Macedonian people who, since 1913 have been partitioned among three capitalist states (Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia), maintains as a central bright symbol its armed uprising on St. Elijah's Day (Ilinden), on August 2., 1903 (July 20th, according to the Gregorian calendar). It represents a most glorious symbol, mainly because this Uprising manifested the unity of the Mace-donian people. Only those who were acquainted not only with the cruelty of the former Sultan's regime, but also with the terrorist and bandits' activities, as well as with the heinous intrigues of the "liberators" from the neighboring states, of the Greek, Bulgarian and Serbian exploiters, understood the real significance and true meaning of this united revolutionary activity of all Macedonians, which was not affected by their varied tribal origin... (Rizospatis, 142/7079, 2. VII 1934.


MACEDONIANS IN THE VODEN AREA ORGANIZE, September 8, 1934.

We Are Neither Bulgarians, Nor Greek! We Are Macedonians. Along the northern periphery of capitalist Greece, a whole nation groans under the heavy boot of two-fold, economic and national exploitation and pressure; that is the Macedonian people. The Greek capitalists, landowners and generals, using fire and sword, try to "hellenize" these people and make them slaves. However, the long-suffering Macedonian people, who have given so many sacri-fices, are not prepared to surrender as slaves to the clutches of their oppressors. They are struggling for their liberation and independence. At their side as their allies stand the Greek workers and peasants who know that "people who oppress another people cannot be free themselves". The news report from western Macedonia, which is published below, shows that the Macedonians are waking up and that they are finding the true road towards their liberation. Fleeing from the harmful influence of the fascist organization of Mihajlov-Protogerov's (I.M.R.O.), they are entering the united revolutionary organization - the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organi-zation (United), which continues the bright and glorious traditions of the struggle for the independence of Macedonia. The village of Arsen, district of Voden, is populated with 165 Macedonian families and by about 80 Prosfigi. In addition to the heavy taxation which we are paying, in addition to the poverty and misery which burdens and oppresses us, we experience wild terrorism which is used against us by the state agencies, of course upon orders of the Tsaldaris government, as was the case earlier, under the government of Venizelos. We cannot go and file complaints in the regional office because there we are kicked out of the offices and called Bulgarian komitadjis, only because we are Macedonians. However, we declare in full voice: "We are neither Bulgarians nor Greeks. We are Macedonians! We shall struggle for full independence from the Bulgarian, Greek and Serbian whip". We know that we shall be successful - provided we are organized, and provided we enjoy the support of the workers and peasants of Greece. At a conference which we had one of our comrades presented the program and activities of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (United). We formed two groups with ten members each, as well as a three-member committee which will organize new groups in all Macedonian villages in the Vrtikop area (district of Voden). We invite all the peasants from the Lerin area and from the area of Enidze Vardar, so that we may start publishing a newspaper for the Macedonians in western Macedonia in our own mother language.

Arsen, September 8, 1934. The Macedonian Groups from Arsen and Vrtikop (district of Voden). (Rizospastis, XVIII, 182/711, 12. IX 1934)


MACEDONIANS ORGANIZE IN GROUPS, October 26, 1934.

Two groups of Macedonians with nine members each, and another one with six members were formed in the village Eksi-Su. They have assumed the task of enlightening the peasants and organizing the struggle of the Macedonian people for liberation. These groups invite the other villages: Ajtos, Zeleniche and Ljubetino to organize themselves in groups and to make efforts to start publishing a Macedonian newspaper in our own mother language. We should declare in full voice to our Greek masters that we are not Greeks, nor are we Bulgarians or Serbs, but pure Macedonians. We have behind us our history, our past with much fighting for the liberation of Macedonia , and we shall continue our struggle until we finally liberate ourselves. Eksi-Su, December 26,1934. Many Macedonian Fighters (Rizospastis, 24-351, 1. XI 1934, s. 3)


TERRORISM IN THE VILLAGE OF PATELE (DISTRICT OF LERIN), October 26, 1934.

In the village of Patele a Macedonian organization was formed to fight for the liberation of the long-suffering Macedonian people who are groaning under a Greek reign of terror. The government terrorizes the Macedonian fighters and has decided to deport Andreja Chipov.* The population of Patele protested against this act and demanded an end to the deportations, and also a release of all the deported fighters. Patele, October 26, 1934. A Macedonian (Rizospastis, 243/7173, 1.XI.1934, s.3)

*- Andreja Chipov (1904-1956), well-known Macedonian and Greek revolutionary. In 1933. he became a leader of the I.M.R.O. (United) in Aegean Macedonia and member of the Central committee of the Communist Party of Greece. In 1936-1941 he was deported to Akronavplia (Greece). For a short period in 1941 he was secretary of the C.C. of the KKE. Participant in the National Libe-ration Front.
"ON THE SIDE OF THE MACEDONIANS. THE MACEDONIANS RESPOND", October, 1934. (This article was written and published in Macedonian, in the dialect spoken in Lerin area, however in the Greek alphabet.)
Comrades, Brother Macedonians!

Greek capitalists are making comprehensive and intensive preparations for a new war and for establishing a fascist dictatorship(Greek word). Greek capitalists want to create conditions in which it will be possible to tyrannize (Greek word) and exploit you even more. They want to take your children to Athens, the capital of Greece. The same is being done by Simo Stanofcki who is a dog, who 1ies (Greek word), who is a representative of Greek capitalism and who is trying to tie you up in a way you will never be able to shake off. Beware of these spies, because they want by dictatorship and by fire and sword to force you to learn the Greek language, to forbid you to speak your own Macedonian language which is your mother tongue. They want you to fight in a new war for the benefit of the rich (Turkish word), so that they will pack up again their coffers with the blood and bones of poor Macedonians. Everything they do, depriving you of the very last morsel of bread, forces you to flee abroad, trying t9 make it impossible for you to come back because you are Macedonians. Therefore, comrades, brother Macedonians, the first thing you should do is to spit in the face of the spy, the fascist Simo Stanofcki and not to let yourselves be deceived again by him, not to let him take your children to Athens to work for the profit of the rich and to your detriment. You should ask the village mayors to return the 500 drachmas which the village gave for every Macedonian who went to Athens and to demand that this amount should be paid back by the royal Greek capital. You should demand to be allowed to speak Macedonian in government offices (Greek word), in the courts of justice, everywhere. You should demand that the children of Macedonians should be given the right to return from abroad. You should declare in full voice all as one: "Macedonia to the Macedonians! Down with the war and the fascist dictatorship! Let us liberate Macedonia and Thrace". A Macedonian From Lerin (Rizospastis. 203 (7141), 3. X 1934, s. 5.)


"RIZOSPASTIS" ON THE SIDE OF THE OPPRESSED MACEDONIANS, November 13, 1934

The Workers' and communists' "Rizospastis"

The "tiroriata" (terror) against the Macedonians in the district of Sorvich (Amindeon) has reached its peak. Macedonian women who sell 20 kilos of peppers in order to buy a kilo of bread and butter for their families are taken to the market inspectorate to buy market licenses. The women who did not know Greek went together, in order to be able to complain, with a peasant who spoke Greek, to the market inspector. However, the inspector, enraged, told them to submit a written complaint and asked them to immediately pay 60 Drachmas each. This is one more reason why we should organize groups of Macedonians in order to fight for an indipendent state.

A Macedonian, [Rizospastis, ap.213 (7151), 13.XI.1934, p.3] (The above was published in the Macedonian language using Greek charachters).


LARGE LANDOWNERS OPPRESS THE POOR PEASANTS IN MACEDONIA, December 1934.

Dear "Rizospastis",. We ask you who have long been on our side and who have always helped us Macedonians who are oppressed and doubly exploited, to publish the following letter: Here, in Enidze-Vardar the whip, curses and heavy taxes are used against us. Our fathers fought against the Turks, but they also fought for liberation from the Greek oppressors. Thus for example, the landowner Zervulaki takes every day parts of the land which was given to us by the state in 1923. He talks derisively to us saying that the land will be ours only to make us pay taxes. However, now the anti-popular government gives the land openly to the landowners. He wants to enlarge his 500 acres to 1500 and even to 5000 acres, and, as he states himself, in order to make the peasants slaves on his estate. Already for seven years now, since 1930, we have been paying taxes only to see now how the land is being taken from us Macedonians. All the poor people who express their dissatisfaction say that they have understood only now that we have been duped by all the bour-geois parties. However, by means of our struggle in the United Front together with the workers, we demand the abolition of all the large estates and distribution of the land to the poor peasants; we demand cancellation of the loans given by the banks and by usurers; we demand to be granted non-interest long term loans. We declare that we shall struggle against fascism and the attempts made to involve us in the war. Enidze-Vardar Poor Macedonians (Rizospastis, 274 (7212), 13. XII 1934, s. 3)


SUPPORT THE MACEDONIANS, January 1935.

Dear "Rizospastis" We write these few lines to you who are the only protector of the oppressed national minorities: All the Greek people have been following these days the debate concerning the refugee problem in the League of Nations in connection with the Greek minority living in Albania, groaning under the yoke of the Albanian government. The Greeks in Albania, faced with the closing down of their Greek schools, demand quite righteously observation of the treaties signed between Albania and Greece. We, the downtrodden Macedonian minority, wish from the bottom of our hearts that the demands of our brothers in Northern Epirus may be realized because we, Macedonians are in the same position, under the yoke of the Greek government. We also demand that the whole working class and the progressive press should raise their voice in support of our rights. We also want to be able to speak freely our Macedonian language and to open Macedonian schools where our children will be educated. We demand that the Greek government should implement the treaties concerning the minorities, which it has actually been oppress-ing for so many years, as has been the case with us Macedonians as with other minorities - (note added by "Rizospastis"). However, the Greek government, instead of giving us our rights, is interested only in our forcible "hellenization". On the other hand, with the assistance of the chauvinist "superpatriotic" press, it tends to present us as if we were not Macedonians but rather "Slavophones", which means "pure Greeks". We also protest against the terror of various fascist nationalist organizations which are committed to our persecution. Together with the police, they keep arresting Macedonians, call them "Komitadjis", beat and torture them brutally. We call upon all our brother Macedonians to rise against this situation. United with the Greek workers and peasants, we shall also struggle for their rights and their freedom. We should destroy once and for all the fascist terror, so that we will be able to use freely our language, so that we will be able to open our own Macedonian schools. We are confident that together with the Communist Party as our leader, we shall be victorious. Brotherly Greetings, Many Macedonians (Rizospastis, 319 (7257) 30. I. 1935, s 1.)


A LETTER OF PROTEST BY A GROUP OF MACEDONIANS ADDRESSED TO THE GREEK NEWSPAPERS,* February 1935.

All the Greek people have been following these days the debate in the League of Nations in connection with the complaint of the Greek minority in Albania. We, the undersigned Macedonians, from the bottom of our hearts wish that the complaints of our brothers in northern Epirus may be remedied, since the Macedonians are in the same situation under the bondage of the Greek authorities. We demand the freedom to speak freely in our Macedonian tongue, to open our own schools so that our children will be educated in our own language. We demand that the Greek government should implement the treaties concerning the minorities in regard to the Macedonian minority, which have beet disregarded for so many years. Instead of giving us our rights, the Greek governments are interested only in the "hellenization" of our population. On the other hand, with the assistance of their chauvinist newspapers they endeavor to present us Macedonians as "Slavophones" and "pure Greeks". We protest also against the orgies which are being held by various nationalist organizations. Together with the gendarmes, they frequently arrest Macedonians, accuse them of being "Komitadjis" and subject them to brutal torture. We call upon our brother Macedonians to complain against this situation. Let us demand that an end be put to the terror, let us demand to be given the right for free use of our own language, to open our own Macedonian schools. (Makedonsko Delo , X/195, February 1935, p.8)

* - According to a note added by the editorial board of the newspaper "Makedonsko delo" (The Macedonian Cause), the Greek minority in southern Albania protested in the League of Nations against the terror of the Albanian authorities. The League of Nations considered this protest early in 1935. A group of Macedonians from Aegean Macedonia used this case to address a letter of protest to the Greek newspapers against the terror of the authorities in Macedonia under Greek rule. The letter was written in the Macedonian language.


THE WHIP IS SYMBOL, July 3,1935.

Enidze-Vardar, June. - The whip is a symbol of class and national oppression in our district, which is being used even more after the increase in the number of votes given to the United Front. A few days ago, "Member of Parliament" A. Pejos arrived here allegedly to distribute the land around the lake to the landless and poor people. He stated, inter alia, that the land should not be given to the natives because they were "Bulgarians", because they were supporting the Komitadjis, and because the Greek Army had difficulties in liberating Enidze-Vardar. We answered this fellow: we do not recognize you as our Member of Parliament. You were appointed by the government! As for the name Bulgarian, which you are giving us, we tell you that we are not Greeks, nor are we Bulgarians or Serbs. We are Macedonians, with our own language, culture, customs, and with our own history. We, who are young, are filled with pride when we listen to our fathers telling us about the Ilinden Uprising, about the heroism of Zlate, Petkov, Gruev, Tosev and Delcev. Were they Bulgarians, Mister Pejo? No, they were Macedonians and they fought for a united Macedonia. All the Macedonians from eastern, central and western Macedonia are uniting, Mister Pejo, in order to kick you out and all the other Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian exploiters.

Per the Groups of I.M.R.O Al. Nemas (Rizospastis, 3.VII 1935.)


THEY WANT TO SPEAK IN THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, July 3, 1935.

Kroncelevo (District of Voden). - One hundred and twenty Macedonian families live in this village. They are Macedonians and they do not know any other language except Macedonian. However, nobody should envy the fate of anyone who might be heard by the authorities speaking Macedonian. A threat hangs above his head of being expelled to Bulgaria. All the villagers have relatives in Bulgaria who write to them that the same thing is being done to them by the Bulgarian authorities. However, the Macedonians in Bulgaria have their own organization and they are struggling for their. freedom. The latest news is that the Security Service has learnt that we receive here our newspaper "Makedonsko delo" (The Macedonian Cause),. which has enraged them. However, we are not afraid of them. We shall spread ever wider this newspaper and we shall form national-revolutionary groups in all the villages and towns in our Macedonia. we shall publish newspapers in our Macedonian language, we shall prove to all the Macedonians that only the Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (United) is waging a struggle for the liberation of the oppressed Macedonians. Village of Kroncelevo, District Correspondent 948 of Voden. (Rizospastis, July 3, 1935)


DEEP IN OUR HEARTS WE KEEP THE MEMORIES OF THOSE WHO WERE MURDERED, July 1935.

Dear "Rizospastis",

You, who are on the side of the oppressed, write also something about us Macedonians. Older Macedonians, who had been lured by Bulgarian money and chauvinism and who bore arms fighting for the annexation of Macedonia to Bulgaria, have now understood that they did not do anything but defend the interests of the landowners and bankers who dismember-ed Macedonia and annexed parts of it to Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece. Now they are reviving the memories of the murdered Macedonian leaders Gruev, Tosev, Delcev, who sought self-determination for Macedonia. We, Macedonians from Voden held a meeting at which one of our comrades talked to us about the program of the I.M.R.O. (United) and how the minorities lived in the Soviet Union. He told us that the Macedonians in Serbia and in Bulgaria were fighting under the leader-ship of the communist parties for a united and independent Macedonia. We declare that we shall struggle for our freedom under the lead-ership of the Communist Party of Greece and that we demand to have our schools where the Macedonian language will be taught, and we also demand that we should not be called Bulgarians because we are not Bulgarians, nor are we Serbs or Greeks, but only Macedonians! We demand permission to publish and distribute our own newspaper. We invite all Macedonians to join the I.M.R.O. (United), so that we shall all together struggle for a free Macedonia. Per the Group from Voden G Slavos (Rizospastis, July 3, 1935.)


THEY FIND THE RIGHT PATH, September 3, 1935.

Old Petko, a Macedonian from Voden, writes to us: One day I got hold of the newspaper "Makedonsko delo" (The Macedonian Cause) published by the Internal Macedonian Organization (United). I read it eagerly and I thought over past events. I thought about my criminal attitude towards the Macedonians in the period between 1893-1896. In Macedonia armed groups were former whose goal was the liberation and self-determination of Macedonia. During this period Bulgaria sent the Komitadjis to Macedonia. One night, the arch-Komitadji Apostol, a terrorist from the district of Enidze-Vardar, came to my house with some 30 Komitadjis. He first intimidated me and then succeeded in convincing me to become a Komitadji by promising me a pay of 50 liras a month and free education for my children. We made war against the Turks, but also we fought against the members of the I.M.R.O. Using terror, murder and bribery, we succeeded in destroying the Macedonian groups. Then we declared that Macedonia was Bulgarian and that we were fighting for her annexation to Bulgaria. That was a great mistake! Only now do I understand what I did. Now, when Macedonia is partitioned among Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece, and when the Macedonians, divided into three states, suffer in each one of them, I understand my fault and I come in spite of my age, but with all my experience, under the glorious banner of the I.M.R.O. (United) which is fighting for the interests of all Macedonians. Voden. Old Petko (Rizospastis, September 3, 1935)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 05:25
The Greek Anti-Macedonian Struggle 1903-1905
In Review: a Journey from Myth towards History

Nationalism is a word that is difficult to define. Perhaps the most sensible way to treat it is to accept that there are numerous varieties of it. There are for example, decent versions that are interested in defending cultural groups from exploitation and inequitable treatment. In direct opposition are those streams of nationalism with an inability to cope with difference and which tend towards attempts to exterminate it, both physically and symbolically. Of course all nationalist movements can possess sub streams that defy the dominant tendency within their group – social life is complex and often the neat categories devised by historians, journalists and others, fall far too short of presenting its discrepant intricacies.

Indeed, it is impossible to record history precisely, as if one could take a photograph of it and thereby illuminate every little detail. Actually, all good photographers realise that any type of lighting will always veil some aspects and are also acutely aware of how readily framing can serve to deceive. Historians need to begin from such premises and then proceed with a desire to capture as honestly as possible all the contradictions that muddle up their prejudices and assumptions. For historians inhabiting a national milieu predominantly belonging to the more intolerant versions of nationalism, this can be a very difficult task to perform. In fact it is not unusual for such historians to be little more than hubristic self-serving myth makers. In their chronicles, to quote Orwell: “Material facts are suppressed, dates altered, quotations removed from their context and doctored so as to change their meaning. Events which, it is felt ought not to have happened are left unmentioned and ultimately denied” (Orwell, 1984: 314).

Historians emerging from a context obsessed with uniformity will need to exhibit and consistently maintain a very high level of moral courage, if they earnestly desire to be loyal to the spirit of their vocation. For it is obviously in the nature of their social realm to punish the authors of prose that deviate from its essentialist canonical foundation yarns; which in actuality have been spun to conceal the existence and persecution of very real human beings. The punishments ‘naturally’ vary, depending upon circumstances, from ostracism to exile, incarceration, or even death.

Most of us, even though we may reside in a more flexible culture, will have, at one time or another experienced at least a transient moment of painful alienation inflicted by peers for the transgression of some minor norms. The scars of even such short lived episodes can never-the-less remain with some people, for very substantial periods. It is difficult then, for those of us inhabiting relatively more tolerant life-worlds, to imagine what it is like for individuals that are required by their avocation to place themselves in a situation where they become almost constantly ostracised by all of the surrounding social structures - from the family to the state. These are structures that we strangers observing the xenophobia from a safe distance, mostly take for granted. If they were to suddenly become unaccommodating, the shock, regardless of the idiosyncrasies characterising our individual natures, would be significant; for these structures provide for our freedom and security - for our existence, as we know it.

Greece is a country that has welded ethnicity to national citizenship. It is a nation-state that refuses to recognise even the existence of any ethnic minorities within its borders – even though it is quite eager to complain about the treatment of Greek minorities within other countries. As the American Anthropologist Loring Danforth has explained, there is a “...fundamental incompatibility of the Greek nationalist conception of the ‘ethnos as an integrated entity embodied in the state’ and a philosophy of inalienable human rights” (Danforth, 1995: 130).

Dimitris Litoxou, a Greek author of historical prose, resides in Athens, the capital of Greece. Over two decades ago he decided that he would take historical discourse seriously and accept the moral challenge demanded by the field through which he has chosen to express himself. By all accounts, this has resulted in great personal hardship, for it led to a type of the social ostracism we briefly outlined above. His courage needs to be recognised and commended. Without individuals like Litoxou, who can serve as models for others to be guided by, Greek ethno-nationalistic hubris is not likely to be undermined.

In 1998 a book Litoxou had written in Greek and entitled “Greek Anti-Macedonian Struggle 1903 - 1905” was published in Greece. I had heard many good things about its content though not being literate in Greek I was unable to see for myself until a Macedonian translation of the Greek original (by Vasko Karaja) was published in 2004. Right from the introduction of the book, Litoxou makes it clear that it is his intention to deconstruct all the unquestioned fairy tales that Greek historiography has been propagating about the “Macedonian question” for decades.

“I am characterising as the Greek anti-Macedonian struggle that which in Greek national history is recognised as the Macedonian struggle. A major chapter in recent Balkan history, which Greek historiography has presented in such a way that it makes historical truth unrecognisable; it has created a completely mythological story – structured upon various lies and the wiping out of historical occurrences” (Litoxou, 2004: 7; the responsibility for the translations throughout this essay, from Macedonian to English is mine – GV).

Greek “historians” and politicians alike, as Litoxou demonstrates with numerous quotations, have attempted to present the Macedonian struggle “...as a heroic struggle by the Greeks from Macedonia in the period 1904 – 1908, for the preservation of their national identity and for their independence. That is, a battle which from a national aspect should be adjudged as the second fundamental point after the uprising of 1821” (Litoxou, 2004: 8).

By researching not only the published and unpublished memoirs of the participants in this struggle, but also the Greek state archives in Athens, Litoxou made discoveries that lead in the direction of a very different version of events: “... that heroic struggle exists only in the books of Greek historians. That which actually occurred, could only engulf the majority of present day Greek citizens, with feelings of shame and regret” (Litoxou, 2004: 8). The problem for Litoxou and others like him is that the elites maintaining the dominant ideology, for utterly selfish reasons employ their power towards drowning out peripheral voices of reason. Never-the-less, we must admit the possibility of challenging and eventually altering hegemonic structures – for they are man made and therefore can be subjected to meaningful change. From this perspective, we must applaud Litoxou’s efforts and consider them to be extremely significant.

The findings emerging from Litoxou’s ‘excavations’ required him to characterise the “Greek Macedonian struggle” as in fact, anti-Macedonian; as a “...systematic effort implemented by the Greek state at the beginning of the 20th century, to inflict a blow upon the national – democratic autonomist movement of the Macedonians. In that struggle, the Greek state and the nationalistic Para-state became allies of the Ottoman establishment at that time. They had at their disposal, a high amount of finance and firearms for the formation and sending forth of guerrilla bands to Macedonian territories where Greeks did not reside, in order to terrorise the inhabitants and to stop the process of Macedonian national revival. The Greek mercenary bands, under the leadership of Greek officers, occupied themselves with violence, plunder and slaughter. They sowed horror and death throughout Macedonian villages and they unsuccessfully attempted to block the development of a Macedonian national ideology and of the democratic-autonomous struggle of the Macedonians” (Litoxou, 2004: 7 – 8). As already indicated, Litoxou methodically utilises primary Greek sources to corroborate his assertions which he describes as a “...journey from myth towards history” (Litoxou, 2004: 8).

In 1903, Macedonians launched an uprising against Ottoman rule that became known as the “Ilinden Uprising” because it was launched on August 2nd – St. Elijah’s day. Litoxou explains that the uprising was “...systematically prepared by the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organisation (IMRO)...The participation of the village Christian peasantry, [Macedonia was at this time a mostly peasant farmers land – GV]...was general in the regions where the uprising broke out (especially in western Macedonia). Ilinden was hostilely met by the Greek state whose consular organs co-operated with the Ottomans for its suppression. The eruption of a revolutionary movement fighting for the creation of an independent Macedonian state, similarly frightened both the Turks and the Greeks. The former would lose the European part of their empire, while the latter would lose the inheritance of the great sick brother. The Ilinden Uprising was bloodily suppressed. The Patriarchate [Greek Orthodox Church – GV] and the spies of the Greek government placed themselves at the service of the Ottoman army and Bashibozuks [Muslim paramilitaries – GV]. The burning down of villages, the killing of innocent women and children and the plunder of...everything was the response of the Ottoman state. The whole of Europe would come down on the side of the Macedonian rebels – except Greece, which would condemn them and slander them” (Litoxou, 2004: 9).

Moreover, as Litoxou underlines, Greek “historians”, have consistently portrayed Ilinden as an insignificant event not widely supported by the local population that was exported to Macedonia by the Bulgarian state, for the purpose of trying to strengthen Bulgarian claims upon Macedonia (Litoxou, 2004: 9 – 10).

It is Litoxou’s contention that in order to present to the public such formulations on Ilinden, Greek “historians” have permitted prejudices emanating from their cultural baggage to determine the nature of their literary output. Indeed, Litoxou demonstrates that these Greek “historians” have regularly ignored and excluded mention of important primary Greek and non-Greek evidence. In connection with the Ilinden Uprising, the most striking example of ignoring evidence that Litoxou uncovered, are reports written in 1904 by a Greek official named G. Tsorbazoglou. He was sent to Macedonia by the Greek Foreign Ministry and his task was to systematically analyse the social conditions in Macedonia and in particular to find out more about the IMRO. He was in other words, charged with writing a series of ethnographic reports. Until Litoxou, the findings of these reports were simply excluded from the accounts given by Greek “historians” (Litoxou, 2004: 29 – 30). Why?

As Litoxou demonstrates with extensive quotations from Tsorbazoglou’s reports, they seriously undermine the official Greek “historical” stance on both the Ilinden Uprising and the IMRO. For example, after broad and regular tours of Macedonia in general and central Macedonia in particular, Tsorbazoglou concludes that the “...revolution in Macedonia is not Bulgarian...” (Litoxou, 2004: 31) and that the IMRO has been very successful in garnering support from the masses “...on account of one single reason...that they have no aim other than to liberate the Macedonians, as Macedonians” (Litoxou, 2004: 32).

In the aftermath of Ilinden, the Greek state attempted to take advantage of the weakened condition of IMRO by exporting Greek guerrilla bands to Macedonia for systematic proselytising among the Macedonian peasantry. What does Litoxou tell us about one of the leaders of these exported Greek guerrilla bands, the celebrated in Greek national mythology, Pavlos Melas? Melas was a Greek military officer who led a Greek guerrilla band, throughout the county of Kostur (today located in Greece and called Kastoria) in Macedonia for a short period after the Ilinden uprising; and Litoxou unveils enough to destroy numerous Greek myths. For example, during his ‘tours’ Melas wrote to his wife complaining that in village after village, the women cannot speak “even one word of Greek” (Litoxou, 2004: 43). Which language did they speak? Melas’ correspondence explains it was reported to him that in one Macedonian village, in order to lift the spirits of the Greek military officers, the local school teacher asked his students to sing a song – however, Melas wrote that he isn’t sure about which language they sang in, “Macedonian or Greek” [!!] (Litoxou, 2004: 43). In an attempt to some extent overcome the communication problem and gain at least a little trust from the Macedonian villagers, Melas informed his wife that: “I have learnt some Macedonian words, which I use among the women and especially the mothers...” (Litoxou, 2004: 44).

Apart from the language barrier, Melas wrote to his wife about his fear of the locally born Macedonian revolutionary leader, Yankov. Melas complained that Yankov had “poisoned” the consciousness of Macedonians with the idea that they constitute a nation “independent...from all other nations” (Litoxou, 2004: 44). What a surprise; in Macedonia during the early 1900’s there were people who considered themselves to be distinctly Macedonian and who spoke a language that they called and which Melas recognised as, “Macedonian”?! Well, probably more like a shock for those who have had the misfortune to only possess access to texts written by Greek “historians”!

At around a quite concise 100 pages, Litoxou’s “Greek Anti-Macedonian Struggle” is an excellent read that I could not put down and read from start to finish in one sitting. Even if you are not highly conversant with Macedonian, it is worth making the effort to accompany Dimitris Litoxou on a “journey from myth towards history”.


George Vlahov

DejaVu
25-01-11, 05:28
The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-front.png (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-front.png)
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-287.png
1.8% would roughly equate into 250000 ethnic Macedonians in Greece.

Elias2
25-01-11, 05:28
Macedonian Dynasty? You mean the fake macedonians? The Theme Macedonia and the Armenians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonian_Dynasty
The Macedonian dynasty ruled the Byzantine (Eastern Roman) Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians) from 867 to 1056, following the Amorian dynasty (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Amorian_dynasty). During this period (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians), the Byzantine state reached its greatest expanse since the Muslim conquests (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Muslim_conquests), and the Macedonian Renaissance (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_Renaissance) in letters and arts began. The dynasty was named after its founder, Basil I the Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Basil_I_the_Macedonian), who was descended from the theme (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thema) of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_%28theme%29). The dynasty's founder and many subsequent emperors were of Armenian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Armenians) descent, hence the dynasty is also referred to by some authors as the Armenian Dynasty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians
The Byzantine Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) reached its height under the Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_dynasty) emperors of the late 9th, 10th, and early 11th centuries, when it gained control over the Adriatic Sea (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Adriatic_Sea), southern Italy, and all of the territory of the tsar (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tsar) Samuel (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Samuil_of_Bulgaria). The cities of the empire expanded, and affluence spread across the provinces because of the new-found security. The population rose, and production increased, stimulating new demand while also helping to encourage trade (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Trade). Culturally, there was considerable growth in education and learning (the "Macedonian Renaissance (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_Renaissance)"). Ancient texts were preserved and patiently re-copied. Byzantine art (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantine_art) flourished, and brilliant mosaics (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mosaic) graced the interiors of the many new churches. Though the empire was significantly smaller than during the reign of Justinian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Justinian_I), it was also stronger, as the remaining territories were less geographically dispersed and more politically and culturally integrated.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians)
WHAT LANGUAGES WAS USED IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE?
Language(s)Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Medieval_Greek), Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic), Armenian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Armenian_language), Old Church Slavonic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic) and other South Slavic languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/South_Slavic_languages), Syriac (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Syriac), Arabic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arabic), Medieval Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Medieval_Latin), Romance languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Romance_languages)

What is Macedonian language doing there if it does not exist?
Tito had a time machine?

Bulgarian language does not exist in Byzantine Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius
Saints Cyril and Methodius
The two brothers were born in Thessaloniki (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thessaloniki) - Cyril in 827-828 and Methodius in 815-820. Cyril was reputedly the youngest of seven brothers, according to the "Vita Cyrilli" ("The Life of Cyril"). Their father was Leo, a droungarios (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Droungarios) of the Byzantine theme (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Theme_%28Byzantine_district%29) of Thessaloniki, and their mother was Maria, who may have been a Slav.
There is no fact anyone was greek of them and only slav referred people where macedonians.

You contridict yourself too much which discredits your whole argument from the start. let me show you your hyprocracy;

Basil was from the theme of macedonia which is why it is called the macedonian dynasty. His background was armenian. Now you say these are 'fake' macedonians because his background is not from that region but he is, so lets put this ideology to you. You call youself macedonian because you lived in the roman province of macedonia, but your background is obviously bulgarian. So in your own logic Basil wasn't macedonian bacause his background is armenian, then you are not macedonian because your background is bulgarian. I'm glad we've come to an agreement :grin:

Elias2
25-01-11, 05:34
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantium_under_the_Macedonians)
WHAT LANGUAGES WAS USED IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE?
Language(s)Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Medieval_Greek), Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic), Armenian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Armenian_language), Old Church Slavonic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic) and other South Slavic languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/South_Slavic_languages), Syriac (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Syriac), Arabic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arabic), Medieval Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Medieval_Latin), Romance languages (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Romance_languages)

What is Macedonian language doing there if it does not exist?
Tito had a time machine?

LOL click on the link where it says 'macedonian' and it take you to old church slavonic! LOL YOU DON'T EVEN TRY WHEN YOU LIE :grin:

DejaVu
25-01-11, 05:40
100% stupid that what you are dont even read anything because you are red in your face that you failed to convince anyone here that macedonians are greeks or bulgars.
If any greek starting to miss any information that is already posted and comment stupidity there will be MEGA REPOST SPAM.

Elias2
25-01-11, 05:41
lol I could take hours debumking everything you write dejavu because you obviously like spreading propaganda but your lies arn't going to work, and I don't want to waste my time doing so. You are bulgarian who call themselves macedonian. Historical truth based of evidence will always triump over nationalism. The sooner you realize this the sooner this stupid conflict will end. Continue and it won't go away, either way, greeks will never see you as 'ethnic macedonians' and neither will the academic community. I will leave you with this pic of the genetic similarities of european nations; take a look as where 'macedonians' group up with, the other southern slavic people :grin:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/73/Genetic_relations_of_European_nations.jpg/440px-Genetic_relations_of_European_nations.jpg

Elias2
25-01-11, 05:44
100% stupid that what you are dont even read anything because you are red in your face that you failed to convince anyone here that macedonians are greeks or bulgars.
If any greek starting to miss any information that is already posted and comment stupidity there will be MEGA REPOST SPAM.

I've read everything and I can see you try real hard to convince not just other people but yoruself you are something you are not. Grow up is the best advice I can give you. :good_job:

Let me give you a quote said by the famous adolf hitler;

"Make the lie big, make it simple, keep saying it, and eventually they will believe it."

sound familiar? ;)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 05:47
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(Byzantine_district)
The themes or themata (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): θέματα; singular θέμα, thema) were the main administrative divisions (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Administrative_division) of the middle Byzantine Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantine_Empire).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(theme)
Theme of Macedonia - province of the Byzantine Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantine_Empire)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/LocationMacedonia-BYZ-1-z.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/LocationMacedonia-BYZ-1-z.png)

You are very stupid, cant even see that the theme is not about the land of macedonia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic)
Old Church Slavonic
Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic (abbreviated as OCS), also known as Old Bulgarian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Bulgarian) or Old Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Macedonian), was the first literary Slavic language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Slavic_language), based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thessaloniki) region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius), who used it for translation of the Bible (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bible) and other Ancient Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek_language) ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings.

The Macedonian recension is one of the oldest recensions of Old Church Slavonic. The recension is named so by modern scientists because its literary centre, Ohrid, is located in what today is referred to as the geographical region of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(region)), today part of the Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia). At that period, administratively Ohrid was in the province of Kutmichevitsa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kutmichevitsa) in the First Bulgarian Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire) until 1018.The main literary centre of this recension was the Ohrid Literary School (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ohrid_Literary_School), whose most prominent member and most likely founder, was Saint Clement of Ohrid (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Clement_of_Ohrid). The language variety that was used in the area started shaping Macedonian dialects (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_dialects). The Macedonian language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_language) was standardized in 1945 on the basis of the Central Macedonian dialects which evolved from the Macedonian recension. This recension is represented by the Codex Zographensis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Codex_Zographensis) and Marianus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Codex_Marianus), among others.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar_language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgar_language)
Bulgar (also Bolğar, Bulghar and Proto-Bulgarian) was the language of the Bulgars (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgars). Very few records exist of the language and little of them is understood. Considered by most linguists to have been a Turkic language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkic_languages), it is believed to have been spoken in the states founded by the Bulgars, namely Old Great Bulgaria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Great_Bulgaria) (in the 7th century), Danube Bulgaria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire) (from the 7th until the 9th century), and Volga Bulgaria (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Volga_Bulgaria) (until the 13th century or 14th century).

This is the real Bulgarian language not the new adopted slavic language.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 05:49
NEED A COMMENT ABOUT THE GREEK LANGUAGE SHOW YOURSELFS.

Greek language.

Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.

Here is your continuity

TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.

Elias2
25-01-11, 05:53
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_(Byzantine_district (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theme_%28Byzantine_district))
The themes or themata (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): θέματα; singular θέμα, thema) were the main administrative divisions (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Administrative_division) of the middle Byzantine Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantine_Empire).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(theme (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28theme))
Theme of Macedonia - province of the Byzantine Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantine_Empire)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/LocationMacedonia-BYZ-1-z.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/LocationMacedonia-BYZ-1-z.png)

You are very stupid, cant even see that the theme is not about the land of macedonia.

LOL, your contradict yourself even more! The land of macedonia from ancient times you speak of is 100% in greek territory. The themes and different geographies of the region of macedonia has always been changing, but the land has always been the same :laughing:. just because the last region, or theme, of macedonia happened to include western bulgaria doesn't mean you are macedonian! LOL :good_job:

Elias2
25-01-11, 05:56
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/80/Byzantine_Macedonia_1045CE.svg/423px-Byzantine_Macedonia_10%2045CE.svg.png

OH no, looks like we've both got it all wrong! the real macedonians are in bulgaria LOL ;)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 05:56
Loser comment your language and why its similar to turkish words.
The themes are not same as countries, if your brain can understand that.
How old are you 12 years?

Elias2
25-01-11, 05:57
because the ottoman empire was turkish maybe? Is this so hard for you to answer yourself? You know languages borrow from each other as time progresses, there are alot of greek words in the turkish language. Themes are the geographical area of the empire at certain times. FYROM is basing its country nationality on a theme they happened te be in, how can you brain not understand this? ;)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 06:03
Wrong answer, Greek is ancient language or is it? One more proof that you are fake and not ancient greeks.

Elias2
25-01-11, 06:07
Wrong answer, Greek is ancient language or is it? One more proof that you are fake and not ancient greeks.

Ancient greek and modern greek are very different, no language stays the same over 2000 years. Take the "macedonian" language as an example, only 70 years ago is was a western bulgarian dialect now you call it macedonian! :laughing: then again, it still isn't different enough from bulgarian to say its still not :good_job:

Elias2
25-01-11, 06:11
I'm going to bed, good night dejavu! or in greek, kalinihta! ;)

iapetoc
25-01-11, 11:31
Dejavu it is simple,

ask Xerxes what reply he got when ask Sparta to join Persia

the same
OVER OUR BODIES

I AM MAKEDONIAN ORIGIN
I LIVE IN MAKEDONIAN ORIGIN
I COME FROM ANCIENT CITY OF BALLA NEAR PIERIA
MY FAMILY FOUGHT BULGARIANS AT 1904

SO COME AND GET IT AND BRING AGAIN YOUR BULGARIAN AND OTHERS FRIENDS

WE WILL NEVER UNITE THE FAKES, SLAVIANS GO HOME TO BULGARIA

cu in Hell soon,
WE will NEVER UNITE WITH THE ENEMIES OF OUR FATHERS
Now A Bulgarian DIALECT became a Language

Besides for us you were and will be always Buggari cause Bulgarians are others
no matter how you call your shelf we were we are and will be the true Makedonians
try to Unite us and then you feel the wrath of the 2nd most known man in Balkans
you know him Mikhael Kalashnikov,

My family lives here for centuries and now you are telling me that i am not Makedonian !!!!!!
I know my genealogy and history since my family left the old Balla and went to Ballanellina at 1600
today is Trilofos
i don't accept any more insults about my nationality and inherritage,

there is a lexicon at 500 AD of Makedonian Dialect and you are showing me one of 1600 ????
if that is not a thivery then what is it?

iapetoc
25-01-11, 11:43
oh look
Albanians are makedonians you must claim albania you forgot it

Oh look you are greeks at that map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ed/Edward_Stanford_1877.jpg


that map is not good shows the excact today borders, but names yoy as Greco-Bulgars
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Balkans-ethnic_%281877%29.jpg


Oh pitty you are bulgarians here you dont exist

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/02/Balkans-ethnique.JPG



oh god what is this!!!!
Adrianople is Makedonian according the conferance of London
Fyrom must have black sea with that map
Its in the map you must claim it, black sea belongs to Slavo- Makedonians
you must unite with them, they are not Turks they are Makedonians
Adrianople is Fyromians it is not turkey it is in the map

The Ottoman Empire in the Treaty of London (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_London_%281913%29) in May 1913 assigned the whole of Macedonia to the Balkan League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_League), without, specifying the division of the region, to promote problems between the allies. Dissatisfied with the creation of an autonomous Albanian state, which denied her access to the Adriatic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic),

nonono the turks named you Makedonia, you are right,


God what is that????

You Are not Makedonians you are Bulgarians
Makedonia is Velico-Tyrnav and Stara Zagora

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=364024&posted=1#post364024
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Byzantine_Macedonia_1045CE.svg
ok

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Roman_provinces_of_Illyricum%2C_Macedonia%2C_Moesi a%2C_Pannonia_and_Thracia.jpg

DejaVu
25-01-11, 16:38
Ancient Greeks in your Dreams. You are already in shame and your economy is crap and always was. Sweden and the others should exclude you out of EU, your behaviour is NON-EUROPEAN.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 17:05
CAN YOU READ ENGLISH????????????

This is usual Ottoman Statistic that cruise the web, to prove that during the Ottoman time there were no Macedonians.

It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.

Look at the Vilaet of Kosova, you will notice that the majority of the non Moslem Populaton are of Bulgarian affiliation. How ever we know that there are no Bulgarians in Kosovo, thus this Bulgarians in the Ottoman statistics are most likely the Serbs affiliated with the Exarchate, cause the Serb church had no access to Kosovo region till 1912.

Another prove that this statistic are not Ethnic based is the fact that there are Moslem and Catolic affiliated Population. I would like someone to explain me what kind of Ethnic Groups are the Moslem or the Catolic one, if this has to be taken for Ethnic-Group statistic?

Important Note: In the Kosovo Vilayet were included not only modern Kosvo, but Rashka, the old Serbia and Pech - the modern Sit of the Serb Church.

In the words of Essyn Levent Emurla: (http://www.aimpress.ch/dyn/trae/archive/data/200104/10404-003-trae-ath.htm)

............ the legacy of the Ottoman millet system which divided the empire's population according to religious affiliation, leading to a long-lasting correlation between religion and identity.
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_ofsKG4Jlu5I/SJGTWlc5uMI/AAAAAAAAAd0/6Nb00-UIAdc/s1600/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Vilayet (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovo_Vilayet)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Osmanu-vilajeti-kosova.svg/600px-Osmanu-vilajeti-kosova.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Osmanu-vilajeti-kosova.svg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/8f/Kosovo03.png/635px-Kosovo03.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Kosovo03.png)

There is no Serbs in Kosovo? Are you stupid or what?

http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/Ot...tatistics.html (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/OttomanMacedonia/statistics.html)
Statistics of the Population of Macedonia before its Partition and the "Macedonian Question"

In 1827, the European powers intervened on behalf of the Greek rebels and forced the Turks to grant them independence. The same powers, established the first modern Greek state, chose Prince Otto of Bavaria to be the "King of the Hellenes", and sent him to Athens. Serbia freed herself also from the Turkish rule, while Russia declared war on Turkey to help Bulgaria gain its independence. The war between Russia and Turkey ended on March 3, 1878, with the peace settlement of San Stefano. The Turks had to agree to the formation of the new Bulgarian state, to also include all of Macedonia but the city of Salonika. Russia was hoping that greater Bulgaria with Macedonia would give her the strategic exit on the Aegean Sea, but she encountered fierce resistance from Austria-Hungary and England that saw their interests on the Balkans endangered. On July 13, 1878 with the Berlin Conference, they forced Russia to give up her dream and the San Stefano agreement was revised. Macedonia was returned to the Ottoman Empire. From this moment, Macedonia became a battleground where the interests not only of the Balkan states, but also of the Great Powers, collide.
The Ohrid Archbishopric was founded as a separate church in 995 to care for the religious needs of the Orthodox Macedonians. However, under the influence of the Greek Orthodox church, the Turkish sultan abolished the Macedonian church in 1767. The Greek Orthodox church was now able to enforce its religious teachings in Greek as the only Orthodox church to exist in the Balkans. Greece hoped to spread her influence and propaganda through the newly opened Greek schools, with a goal to Hellenize the population of Macedonia. But as their influence grew bigger, so did the resistance of the Macedonians. On March 7, 1851, the residents of Enidje-Vardar (today in Greece) signed a petition, for replacement of the teachings in Greek with Macedonian. In 1859, in Kukush was formed the resistance movement against the Hellenization that quickly spread to Voden, Kostur, Lerin, and the rest of southern Macedonia. Adding to the Greek influence, the Bulgarians now opened their schools in Macedonia in 1871, and the Serbs followed shortly after. This is the beginning of the so-called "Macedonian Question".
Statistics without "Macedonians"
There are three statistical tables that the Greeks and the Bulgarians point to show that the Macedonians do not exist as nation, and that Macedonia belongs to ether one of them.
1) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1904, in areas of Macedonia lived:
Macedonia's Districts
Greeks
Bulgarians
Vilaet of Thessalonica
373,227
207,317
Vilaet of Monastir
261,283
178,412
Santzak of Skopje
13,452
172,735

2) According to a Turkish census of Hilmi Pasha in 1906, in Macedonia lived:
Muslims
423,000
Greeks
259,000
Bulgarians
178,000
Serbs
13,150
Others (Jews)
73,000

However, the 2 Turkish censuses above cannot be taken into consideration because the Turks registered the inhabitants based upon their religious background, not ethnic. In Macedonia at that moment the Macedonian Orthodox Church was forbidden (upon the insistence of the Greeks in 1767), and the Macedonians had choice to enter either Islam or the only Christian Orthodox Churches the Turks legitimized - and those were the Greek, Bulgarian, or Serbian, because Greece, Bulgaria and Serbia were already independent countries. The Islam was not an option for the first Christians of Europe (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/ShortHistory.html), and the Macedonians had no other choice but to have religious services in Bulgarian, Greek, or Serbian Church. As result, as it can be seen above, the Turkish census registered Muslims, Jews, and the Christian Macedoniansweredivided depending on which church they belonged - mostly Bulgarian and Greek as it shows.
3) Another table is the one published by the League of the Nations. According to the League of the Nations in 1926, in Aegean Macedonia occupied by Greece in 1913 (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/PartitionedMacedonia/KingoftheGreeks.html) lived:
Turks
2,000
Greeks
1,341,000
Bulgarisants
77,000
Others (Jews)
91,000

But this map was submitted to the League of the Nations by the Greek government and it is clear that it is biased. The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreeceStealingMacedonianHistory.html). Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreekPropaganda.html).
Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality. Table 1 gives an excellent proof of those Balkan speculations and bias surrounding Macedonia:




balkan views

Greek






Nikolaides
1899
Bulgarian
Kenchov
1900
Serbian
Gopchevich
1886




Macedonian Slavs

454,000






-
-




Serbs

-






400
1,540,000




Bulgarians

-






1,037,000
-




Greeks

656,300






214,000
201,000




Turks and others

576,600






610,365
397,020

Table 1. Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's population
It is more than obvious that all the views coming from the Macedonia's neighbors which sharply contradict eachother, are biased. They all claim their people in Macedonia to justify their well-planned aspirations. It is important to note that both the Bulgarian and Serbian views agree that the Greeks in Macedonia represent only a small minority of 10%. The Greek ethnographer Nikolaides, on the other hand, claims three times bigger number than his colleagues in Belgrade and Sofia. However, the most important about Nikolaides is that he recognizes the Macedonian Slavs as a separate nation, separate from the Bulgarians and the Serbs, to be part of population of Macedonia. And although he tries hard to lower the numbers of those Macedonian Slavs, he still comes up with a convincing proof of their existence.
Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population
This is the time when many European slavists, ethnographers, and historians, are also attracted to visit Macedonia and conduct their own investigations. Therefore, to find the unbiased population numbers in Macedonia, we have to rely on neutral and independent statistics:




neutral views

German






Dr. K. Ostreich
1905
Austrian
K. Gersin
1903
English
Andrew Rousos




Macedonian Slavs

1,500,000






1,182,036
1,150,000




Serbs

-






-
-




Bulgarians

-






-
-




Greeks

200,000






228,702
300,000




Turks and others

550,000






627,915
400,000

Table 2. Independent and Neutral European Statistics of Macedonia's Population



Although the Macedonians are referred as "Macedonian Slavs", the main point of the statistics is the fact that they are recognized as distinct nation with cultural and historical right over their country Macedonia in which they are overwhelming majority. The reluctance to refer to them for what they are (simply as Macedonians), is explained by the overemphasizing of the contemporary Greek vs. Slavic (Serb and Bulgarian) rivalry over Macedonia in which the westerners desired to make the note that the Macedonians were more "Slavs" then "Greeks" - thus resulting in the use of the term "Macedonian Slavs" to distinguish them from all but still indicate their closer relation to their northern then southern neighbors, as interestingly was the case with the ancient Macedonians and their closer relations with the Thracians and Illyrians then with the ancient Greeks.

Yet the term "Macedonian Slavs" is erroneous since the Macedonians, although conscious of their ancient Macedonian roots and Slav admixture, did not specifically call themselves "Macedonians Slavs", but Macedonians as the documents over the last 2,500 years show (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Documents.html). The same "Macedonian Slavs" mistake was again repeated by some western media, as the Albanian terrorists attacked Macedonia in March of 2001, and again it was done deliberately. This deliberate bias is again there, unfortunately because of the political situation and the western media's inclination towards the goals of the Albanian terrorism for "Greater Albania" (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AlbanianTerrorism/greatheralbania.html). As at the beginning of the 20th century (http://makedonika.org/html/20th_century.htm), the Macedonians showed their outrage at the beginning of the 21st century of this racial insult and publicly instead that their nationality be respected. Not only the Macedonians all over the world vigorously accused the western media for racial bias, but also did various western independent (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AlbanianTerrorism/eran.html) and non-government (http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa397.pdf) organizations. That referring to the Macedonians as "Macedonian Slavs" was a mistake was publicly acknowledged by BBC which apologized and withdrew its reporter Paul Wood precisely for his bias reporting, and since continued to rightfully refer to the Macedonians for what they have always been - Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AlbanianTerrorism/westernfabrications.html).
From the two above tables one can easily notice that the number of Greeks in Macedonia according to the neutral authors also aligns with the numbers given by the Serb and Bulgarian authors. This is a proof that the Greeks before the partition of Macedonia, were indeed a small minority, only 10% from the total population. This fact certainly does not give them the copyright of the name Macedonia. Dr. Ostreich, Gersin, and Roussos, are only a few of the many neutral authors to prove the groundless speculations of the Balkan counties. They proved that Macedonia belongs to a separate nation, which proves that the Bulgarians and the Serbs have than simply substituted the numbers of the Macedonians for theirs. Another Austrian, Karl Hron explained why that is unjustified:
"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..." and:
"... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language".
There were even Greek and Bulgarian writers to support what Karl Hron has written. One such example is the Bulgarian slavist and ethnographer P. Draganov, who in his studies of 1887-1894 and 1903, proved the existence of the Macedonians and the Macedonian language as a distinct language.
At the time of the emergence of the so-called Macedonian question, and the aspirations of the Macedonian neighbors for occupation of the country, the famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875:

"People who originate from one and the same race, speak the same language, live together in harmony, and have the same customs, songs and mentality, constitute a nation, and the place where they live is their homeland. In this way, the Macedonians are a nation and their homeland is Macedonia" and,
"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"
Pulevski was right back in 1875. He was proud Macedonian of his ancient heritage, conscious, and aware that the Macedonians were a distinct nation, a fact that the documents of the last 25 centuries clearly show (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Documents.html).

The usage of Macedonian and Macedonia separate from Greek or Bulgarian and Greece or Bulgaria is more than obvious. Also these sources are objective, old and clear, and do not offer any further interpretation; that is how they prove the existence of the Macedonians as a Nation with this name in this region, separate from the Greeks and Bulgarians in many ways. The fact that old documents call these people Macedonians shows that the Macedonians aren't an artificial creation, but a nation with a homeland and a name-Macedonia and Macedonians.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 17:16
And here is your Greek-Turkish heritage. Greeks mixed with the Turks and are the modern Greeks.

Modern Greeks always talk proudly about their so-called "Makedonias Agonas", a war they state was to liberate the 'Greek' Macedonians and 'Greek' Macedonia from Turkish rule. In reality, the so-called "Makedonias Agonas" was nothing more then a war of genocide against the indigenous Macedonian population with the aim of annexing Aegean Macedonia to modern Greece. Ironically, the biggest allies of the modern Greeks in this endeavor besides the English were the Turks. Below is a small collection of photographs from that period which document Turko-Greek collaboration.

The infamous photo of Greek Bishop Karavangelis blessing the Turkish guns prior to their use against Macedonians.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/germanos-karavangelis.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/germanos-karavangelis.jpg)

Another photo of Karavangelis and his Turkish allies.
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/karavangelis_turk.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/karavangelis_turk.jpg)

Greeks and their Turkish allies, notice both flags in the background
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/georgios-yianglis-with-some-of-his-men.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/georgios-yianglis-with-some-of-his-men.jpg)

Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/the-dogiama-brothers.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/the-dogiama-brothers.jpg)

More Greek bandits posing with their Turkish Allies
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/the-chieftains-spyros-and-adam.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/the-chieftains-spyros-and-adam.jpg)

Greek bandit posing with Turkish Allie
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/yiannis-ramnalis-and-young-turk-officer.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/yiannis-ramnalis-and-young-turk-officer.jpg)

Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/apostolos-matopoulos-and-young-turk-officer.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/apostolos-matopoulos-and-young-turk-officer.jpg)

Another Greek posing with Turkish Allies
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/grekoman_struggler3.jpg (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/grekoman_struggler3.jpg)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Young_Turk_Revolution_-_Flayer_for_the_constitution.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9e/Young_Turk_Revolution_-_Flayer_for_the_constitution.png)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 17:18
The ancient Greek language or is it Turkish?

Greek language.

Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.

Here is your continuity

TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK
det Custom Adeti
Afaroz Excommunicate Aforismos
Aga Land owner Agas
Ahmak Idiot Ahmakis
Ahtapot Octopus Htapodi
Alan Area, ground Alana
Alarga Open sea, distant Alarga
Aman For mercy's sake Aman
Anadolu Anatolia (East in Greek) Anatoli
Ananas Pineapple Ananas
Anason Aniseed Anithos
Anfora Anchor Amphoreus
Angarya Forced labor Angaria
Aptal Stupid Abdalis
Apukurya Carnival Apokria
Arap Negro, bogyman Arapis
Arnavut Albanian Arnautis
Asik Someone in love Asikis
Atlet Athlete Athlitis
Avanak Gullible, stupid Avanakis
Ayran A drink Ariani
Baba - Father - Babas
Baca - Chimney - Batzias
Bacak - Leg, leg of trousers in G.- Batzaki
Bacanak - Brother in law - Batjanakis
Baglama - A string instrument - Baglamas
Bahce - Garden - Bahtses
Bahsis - Tip - Baxisi
Bakir - Copper - Bakiri
Bakkal - Grocer - Bakkalis
Baklava - Baklava - Baklavas
Balta - Ax - Baltas
Bamya - Okra - Bamia
Barbunya - A fish - Barbunia
Barut - Gunpowder - Baruti
Battaniye - Woolen Blanket - Batania
Batakci - Swindler - Bataxis
Bayrak - Flag - Bairaki
Bekar - Batchelor - Bekiaris
Bekri - Drunk - Bekris
Bela - Trouble - Belas
Benzin - Petrol, gas - Benzina
Bereket - Abundance, plenty - Bereket
Beton - Concrete - Beton
Bey - Mr. - Beis
Bezelye - Pea - Bizeli
Biber - Pepper - Piperi
Biftek - Steak - Bifteki
Bodrum - Cellar, dungeon - Boudroumi
Bomba - Bomb - Bomba
Bostan - Vegetable field, garden - Bostani
Bora - Storm - Bora
Boya - Paint - Bogia
Borek - Pastry, pie - Boureki
Bre - Hi, you - Vre
Budala - Idiot - Boudalas
Bulgur - Boiled wheat - Bligouri
But - Thigh - Bouti
Buz - Ice, very cold - Bouzi
Buzuki - Bouzouki - Bouzouki
Cacik - A drink with cucumbers- Tzatziki
Caka - Swagger, vanity - Tsaka
Cam - Window pane - Tzami
Cami - Mosque - Tzami
Cambaz - Acrobat, dealer in G.- Tzambazis
Cenabet - Crabbed person - Tzanabetis
Cep - Pocket - Tsepi
Cereme - Fine or cost of damage- Tzeremes
Cezve - Coffee Pot - Tzesves
Ciger - Liver, lungs - Tziyeri
Cimbiz - Tweezers - Tsimpida
Cuce - Dwarf - Tsutzes
Cadir - Tent - Tsiantiri
Cakirkeyif - Slightly drunk - Tsakir-kefi
Cali - Thorny plant - Tsiali
Calim - Flexibility, show off - Tsalimi
Cam - Pine tree - Tsami
Canak - Shallow bowl - Tsanaki
Canta - Handbag - Tsanta
Capacul - Untidy - Tsapatulis
Capari - Weight anchor - Tsapari
Capkin - Seducer, coquettish - Tsahpinis
Capraz - Crossed - Tsaprazi
Cardak - Hut of dried branches - Tsardaki
Carsi - Market - Charsi
Carik - Rustic shoe - Tsarouhi
Catal - Fork - Tsatala
Catra Patra - Stumbling speech - Tsatra patra
Cavus- Sergeant - Tsausis
Cay - Tea - Tsai
Celebi - Pleasant man, mentor - Tselebis
Cember - Circle - Tsemperi
Cengel - Hook - Tsingeli
Ciklet - Chewing gum - Tsikla
Ciftetelli- A dance - siftetelli
Ciftlik - Large country estate - Tsifliki
Cifit - Tight in money - Tsifoutis
Cimento - Cement - Tsimento
Cinko - Zinc - Tsingos
Ciftlik - Big farm, property - Tsifliki
Cirak - Apprentice - Tsiraki
Cipura- A fish - Tsipura
Ciroz - A fish - Tsiros
Coban - Shepherd - Tsobanis
Corap - Woolen sock- Tsurapis
Corba - soup - Tsorbas
Corek - Large bun - Tsoureki
Cotra - File fish - Tsotra

Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 17:25
Greeks have come out in their true colours in that today we see what they are up to to deny & destroy the macedonian nation.We also know from historical sources the atrocities that they committed & are committing on the macedonian people.Genocide is the way to describe it they are bothing but a vile & despicable peope who will resort to the lowest denominator to get their way.They are the most inhumane people on the face of this earth.The Helsinki Human Rights Watch has allready warned europe that the greeks are lying by denying the existence of the macedonians.Also that the greeks have gone to exhaustive means to cover the fact that there aren't macedonians.For example it jails people who disagree with a number of cases throughout greece.Also it forbids the spoken macedonian language.The forced changing of people's names with greek ones.etc


It is fashionable today for academicians and plebeians to speak of Greek “civilization” as if it was some monolithic expression of a monolithic state (country) Greece. But whether this is so and whether this could be established, is a matter altogether different—but what it does do is give us some pause of thought.

In examining these matters, we must first throw off the yoke of Western scholarship, Western bias, and Western humdrum oration. Let us take apart, piece by piece, the mythos surrounding the nonexistent ancient state of “Greece,” and let us reveal the truth of these matters.

So notwithstanding “My Big Fat Greek Wedding,” and the father’s proclamation of “pick any word, and I will show it to be of Greek origin,” and “the Greeks invented pottery,” let us press ahead and document the errors of Western scholarship and Greek propaganda.

The ancient writer Tatian, writing over 1500 years ago, understood this all too well when he stated “Cease, then, to miscall these imitations inventions of your own.” So in other words, the Greeks steal, without admission or recognition, other cultures ideas as their own. If they do this for ideas, imagine what they might do with “persons”; wait, they already do that too!

The alphabet, itself composed of the Greek letter alpha and beta, originated with the Phoenicians.

Astronomy (Greek word) originated with the Babylonians.

Geometry, another Greek word, originated with the Egyptians.

Imagine if English and other European countries used the original words for alphabet, astronomy, geometry, and so forth, they wouldn't sound so Greek! But when you Hellenize the name, they become Greek!

The problem with ancient European history is that in the last 250 so years western European scholars have divide Europe into two spheres of influence, the Roman latin west, and the Greek east. This definition is very misleading as any non-Greek nation or people residing in the east are automatically identified as being 'Greek'.

DejaVu
25-01-11, 17:33
Bulgarian "scientific" methods bring the term "Bulgarian" into generic link not only with the old Bulgarian, but with everything that ever appeared at any time under this name (!?)

For shorter and better review of the use and meaning of the term "Bulgarian" starting from the 10th century and especially during the Turkish domination of the Balkans will consider several referential examples that testify against Bulgarian Nationalist doctrine.

According to the Bulgarian historiography all mentions,and very often wrong, with this name which is for her a fateful moment, that this is them - Bulgarians.

“Bulgarian elite had to invent, elaborate and underpin a myth of common ancestry and made this pedigree putative for the sense of ethnic identification.”
- (Smith, Anthony. "National Identity" published in London 1991, p. 22)

A.Todorov-Balan in his "One Macedonian theory”, book 9-10, Sofia, 1905, 818, states that in the XIX century the Balkan peoples,called the Russian czar -" Bulgarian Tsar "and the Serbian and Russian language - "Bulgarian".

The term "Bulgarian” during the Ottoman rule denoted – a peasant farmer.

While the "Grecian" denoted a person of higher class or merchant.

"During the Ottoman period, therefore, terms like 'Greek' or 'Bulgarian' were not used to designate different ethnic or national groups, but rather broad socio-cultural categories" (Danforth 1995:59)
- (Mirca Madianou , “Mediating the Nation“, p. 30, is Lecturer and Director of Studies in Social and Political Sciences, Lucy Cavendish College, University of Cambridge)

"The term "Bulgarian," which had earlier been used to refer to all the Slavs of the Ottoman Empire (Friedman 1975:84), or as a virtual synonym for "peasant" without any political significance at all came to mean "Bulgarian" in a national sense. "(Wilkinson 1951:149),
- (Loring M. Danforth „The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World Princeton University Press, 1997, p. 59)

“ For example, in Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria, class and ethnicity overlapped, resulting in the utilization of the terms “Serb” and “Bulgar” to denote the peasantry per se. Since most peasants were Slavs and most Slavs were peasants, class distinctions often became ethnic distinctions ( Slijepcevic 1958, 82-96; Kofos 1964; Vermulen 1984; Shashko 1973).
When the Slavs moved into the urban world or became members of the middle classes, they generally shifted their identity to Greek. In Belgrade, for example, Serbian townsmen dressed in the Greek style, the Belgrade newspapers included the rubric Greciia (Greece), and the local Christian “higher strata” were Grecophone until 1840 – according to Stoianovich 1994, 294; and Karanovich 1995, 31.
In Southern Albania and Greece during the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, thousands of Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs became completely Hellenized ( Skendi 1980, 187-204)”.
- (Victor Roudometof “Nationalism,Orthodoxy, and Globalization”p. 48)


We are witnesses of the phenomenon of “ethnicization” of the religious, social or occupational groups in Balkans, very often these groups were denoted by the names of ethnic communities and they used these names to denote themselves as well.

The term "Grecian" could mean "an Orthodox Christian," but also "reseller" or generally "well situated" citizen. in the same way, "Turk" most marked "Muslim" and "Bulgarian" was a highlight, "villager", with or without an offensive meaning. "Vlach" and marked "shepherd" or "nomads" in general. "Albanian" (arnautin) could be applied to a man from each ethnic group who performed certain military tasks
The term “Grecian” could mean “Orthodox Christian” but also a “city dweller” or gennerally “well to do citizen”. In the same way,”Turk” often meant “Muslim”, with “Bulgarian” to denote a “villager”, with ot without pejorative connotation. “Vlach” could mean “shepherd” or “nomad” in general.”Albanian” (arnautin) could apply to a person of any ethnic origin performing specific military tasks
- (Dēmētrēs Tziovas , „Greece and the Balkans“ p. 43)


According the references of Prof. Keith Brown, “Turk” implied official persona – functionary, “Grecian” meant – merchant, “Bulgarian” – villager, farmer and “Vlach” – shepherd, rancher.
“When the Macedonian peasants use the term Bulgar, they mean by it: 1) people of a simple and hard-working life, 2) the bulk of simple labourers who speak Slavic, in contrast to the non-Slavs, the Greeks and the Turks, who are above this majority and consider them inferior. The first meaning is the main one: the word “Bulgar” denotes in the first case a simple mode of life, work and thought.”
- (Keith Brown, „The Past in Question, modern Macedonia and the Uncertainties of Nation“, p. 59)

Habsburg authorities in Transylvania, tended to call all members of Orthodox merchant companies “Greeks”, irrespective thet they included not only Slavs, Romanians, and Christian Albanians, but also a sprinkle of Armenians and Jews. Western travelers in Macedonia, quickly realized that the term “Bulgarian” was locally used to describe poor Slav peasants.
- (Katerina Zacharia и Dimitris Livianos „ Hellenisms: culture, identity, and ethnicity from antiquity to modernity“, p. 249)

“In Macedonia, as late as the early twentieth century, both “Greeks” and “Bulgarian: denoted professions, the later often being applied to poor, Slavic-speaking, Orthodoc Christian peasants, shepherds, or laborers of lower social status to whom were ascribed a “peasant” culture.”
- ( Peter Mackridge, „Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766 – 1976“)

Trajan Stojanović in his book "Balkan Worlds: The First and Last Europe", p.143 again underlines that the term "Bulgarians" were called the farmers and with "Vlachs" the shepherds.

The Bulgarian member of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences Vasil Drumev wrote: "And we've began to learn Greek, to speak in Greek, to call ourselves Greeks. And there is still among us respected Bulgarians, who are grecoficating, who speak .. in Greek, who hate the Bulgarians.”

K. Irachek in - "History of Bulgarians”, Sofia, 1929, 385-386, says that the citizens for the simple, uneducated provincials (peasants) always used the name - "Bulgarians" by adding the obligatory – thick headed, *****, stumps and other abusive words.

The Traveler Sir John Mandeville, in1357 travelling throught Balkans wrote that Serbia is land of Bougiers, while Blegrade in that time was known by the name “Alba Graeca” and “Alba Bulgarica”.

Simeon Lehaci in his journey memories wrote that all the people in Bosnia speaks in "Bulgarian", and they were "Greeks" in religion.


“All peasants were Macedonians; shepherds were Vlachs; merchants and bureaucrats were Greeks; and the high administrators were Muslims.”- (“Minorities and mother country imagery” By Gerald L. Gold, Memorial University of Newfoundland. Institute of Social and Economic Research, p. 60.)

Prof. Stilpon Kyriakidis in the “Northern ethnological frontiers of Hellenism ", on p.39:
"While at the time of Simeon did not cease to differ Dragovites from Strumianites and generally Sclavinians from Bulgarians, since Samuel the name of Sclavinias completely disappeared, and all Macedonian Slavs are called Bulgarians by the Byzantines and the country that Samuel ruled, that is western and northern Macedonia is called Bulgaria. In this way, we ourselves gave the name Bulgarian to everyone that speaks Slavic ".

The propaganda consisted of introducing among the common Slavic people the world “Bolgar”, as a synonym for “Slavonic Christian”; As this propaganda was so strong, really the word “Bolgar” became a synonym for “Christian that speak Slavonic” in the 19 Cent., but not and nationality.
When bulgarian peasant used to say "we are Bulgars", he meant "we are Christians", i.e. Orthodox (Periodichesko spisanie (Sofia), LXV (1904), p.818)

Another indisputable proof that the “Bulgarian” at that time meant Slav, and then "Bulgarians" thought of themselves as pure Slavs, the same people with the Serbs and the Macedonians and Illyrians (Croats, Slovenes and Montenegrins) presents "The History of Bulgarian people " by Fr. Spiridon of Gabrovo, which in its short history says:

"Bolgarians came into rule in Thrace, Macedonia, Dalmatia, White Sea and the Rome... Illyrians (Serbs and Croats, my note) are called Bolgarians... and from Bolgarians originated the Serbs, and when Alexander took the whole Ilyrian army to conquer of the world ... since then Bolgarians began to call themselves Macedonians and Slavs "
- (Spyridon Yeroschimonach, History in short of Bolgarian Slav nation 1792, tran. B. Hristova, prof. Raikov B., BAK at NB “Ss.Cyril and Methodius ", and" GAL-ICO, Sofia, 1992)

Jordan Hadzhikonstantinov - Dzinot, tells that for him the term Bulgarians means Slavs, so in his "Legend of Thessaloniki," published in 1859 says St. Cyril and Methodius, the apostles of all Bulgarians (Slavs), and in Bulgarians includes the Moravians from Great Moravia and Pannonia (Glasnik drustva srpske slovenosti, VIII, p. 146-147)

Krste Petkov Misirkov explains the concept “Bulgarian”: "The Greeks also did not differ the Slavic nations and all Slavs ... called with the despised name "Bulgarians"
... The Greeks used the name Bulgarian to incarnate in him their contempt for everything Slavic. .. With the name Bulgarians, we Macedonians were christen by the Greeks,as well. But this re-christening was not the only one... “ (Krste Petkov Misirkov "On Macedonian Matters" Preface, Sofia, Printing House of the Liberal Club, 1903).

For Mr. Gennady, Metropolitan of Veles in 19th century ( born in the village Podkozhene, Podgradec) the concept “Bulgarian” is the same with the term Slavs, and he wrote that the Czechs and Slovakians are Bulgarians: “ of Bohemia and Moravia they are all Slavs, pure Bulgarians, our brothers” (Source: Simeon Radev “ Early memories”, titled “Meeting of four Bulgarian bishops” new, revised and expanded edition, edited by Trajan Radev, publishing house “Strelec”, Sofia, 1994)

Macedonian teacher Nikola Pop-Philipov, says that "Bulgarian" language is a general Balkan language (newspaper "Macedonia" Constantinople, April 6, 1868), referring to the Slavic language.

Grigor Prlicev writes in his autobiography: “... the Bulgarian alphabet only to three was known and was called Serbian..” (Grigor Prlicev, Autobigraphy). For him and the Serbians were Bulgarians i.e. Slavs; at that time, only Serbs had reformed and codified Slavic alphabet, and because of it Prlicev says that the Bulgarian (Slavonic) alphabet was called Serbian.

The famous Macedonian textbook writer Dimitar Macedonian sees its people as ancient Macedonians, and in one of his article writes that the ancient Macedonians are not swallowed by the earth, but are pure Slavs: "... Macedonians are not Vlachs or some other nation, but pure Bulgarians (thinking of Slavs) ... therefore you’ll learn that the Macedonians are not lost from the face of the earth, as some allow to say, because, as far as we know, they did not done anything so bad, what should open the earth to swallow them. "(see Makedonia of 16/02/1871).

In its “Brief holy history for the schools in Macedonia (in Macedonian dialect) printed in “ The printing of Macedonia”, Constantinople in 1867, writes:
Q.[Question] Who are those Bulgarians(Slavs), who were baptized in the early first century after Christ’s birth?
A.[Answer] They are Bulgarians who live in Macedonia
Q. From whom are they baptized?
A. The Apostle Paul, who first preached at Philippi and Thessaloniki

It becomes obvious that under the umbrella of the term "Bulgarians" also enter the ancient Macedonians, who were first baptized by the Apostle Paul, whole 5 centuries before the ethnic name "Bulgarians" to appear on the Balkans at all and generally European geographic regions.

Next reference is the book of Mark Mazower “Salonica City of Ghosts” p.249, who writes about the visit of Sir Henry Layards of Thessaloniki, and here’s what he means under these terms:
To be a “Greek” meant to be a “Orthodox Christian” while under the term “Bulgarian” was held to be one of reproach and contempt.

Not last confirmation, but sufficient for completion of this reference overview of the meaning of these terms, according to the book of Nace Dimov “Historical line of Macedonia and Macedonian Slavs” Chapter first p.13-15, from 1913:

”Therefore, in Macedonia there was such a position that the same Macedonian nation was called Grecian, Serbian and Bulgarian, just because one recognizes the Greek patriarch and pray in Greek churches, and another goes into a Slavic church. In each the same towns and villages the priests that receive a salary of Bulgarian Exarchate call themselves Bulgarians, those receiving the salary from the Serbian Diocese called themselves Serb and Macedonian Slav population that goes into one or another school or church calling itself Grecian, Serb or Bulgarian

From all that I expressed I can say that the Macedonians have a hundred percent right to autonomy and not be subjected to fragmentation among Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians. Regardless of that the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian government, for extending their boundaries on Macedonian territory, without saving money and exterminating the Macedonians who do not want to call themselves Greek, Serb and Bulgarian and those who do not know how to speak Serbian and Greek.”

DejaVu
25-01-11, 18:32
WHERE ARE THE REAL GREEKS?

Archbishop Ieronymos II of Athens

He was born Ioannis Liapis (Greek: Ιωάννης Λιάπης, Iōánnēs Liápēs) in Oinofyta, Boeotia. He is an Arvanite. (Albanian)

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/john_bintliff-139.png (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/john_bintliff-139.png)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 18:34
WHERE ARE THE REAL GREEKS?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey
The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey was based upon religious identity, and involved the Greek Orthodox (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church) citizens of Turkey and the Muslim (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Muslim) citizens of Greece. It was a major compulsory population exchange (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Population_transfer), or agreed mutual expulsion.

1914 document showing the official figures from the 1914 population census of the Ottoman Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire). The total population (sum of all the millets (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire))) was given at 20,975,345, and the Greek population was given at 1,792,206

iapetoc
25-01-11, 19:09
Besides you took all the Greek words and all the Arvanitet and all the Pontian Greek and you turn them

ALL THE WORDS YOU WRITE ABOVE ARE GREEK WORDS AND ARVANITET, THAT TURKISH BORROWED, YOUR HOAX IS ENORMOUS, YOU TOOK ALL THE GREEK WORDS IN TURKISH LANGUGE AND MAKE THEM TURKISH AND THEN TURN THEM AND YOU SAY THAT GREK ARE TURKISH,

ARE YOU NUTS?

WHO BELIEVES YOU,

ALL THE WORDS YOU WRITE ABOVE ARE FROM PARTS OF GREECE, AND ARBANITET NOT TURKISH

how yes no 2
25-01-11, 21:25
The ancient Greek language or is it Turkish?

Greek language.

Well teach us the turkish language while you are at it. Just ask your baba if you need help. Oh here i will start it for you.

Here is your continuity

TURKISH ENGLISH GREEK ......

Ancient GREEK and Turkish are same? Go fool somebody else who dont know your fake identity.

Actually, many of the words are present all over Balkan, also in Macedonia....
Many or at least some of them are likely to origin from Greece....
Before Ottomans arrived to Asia minor, Greek was main spoken language there....
In fact, modern Turkish people largely origin from pre-Ottoman native Greek speaking people, and thus it is quite normal if modern Turkish has lot of loan words of Greek origin...and I do not understand purpose of listing these words shared between turkish and Greek....so what if some Turkish words are adapted in areas that were part of Ottoman empire... even if the whole vocabulary is shared that would mean nothing when it comes to genetics and origin....

btw. Deja Vu, can't you be more relaxed about topics we discuss here? I don't think most of people who come here are in mood to participate in argues and little wars with imaginary enemies....discussions should not be about propganada-like shouting on each other, but a joint effort to figure out what might be the truth about history events.... if you are not able to participate in discussions in civilized way with respect for other people and their origin, perhaps forums are not best place for you and maybe you should consider joining some army or some religious sect that will provide you with enemies and allow you to live in black/white them/us division of the world...

DejaVu
25-01-11, 22:13
FAKE GREEKS link to your statements, I want to know what the white DNA is, never heard about it before.

Summary:

1) The DNA make-up of today's Greeks is 99.5% white. The study cliams that today's Greek has 99.5% the same DNA make-up as as the white Greeks of ancient times. (no link)

2) Contrary to beliefs by many in Turkey and certain Slavic nations of ex-Yugoslavia, Greek DNA has not been influenced, nor altered, by the mixture of Slavic or Turkish DNA, even though Ottomans ruled a large part of Greece for 400 years. (no link)

3) Out of a sample of 925 modern-day Greek DNA, only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA. (no link)

4) To a large extenet, Greeks of the ancient time "transfered" their DNA to other parts of Europe through their conquests. The study showed that, today, Greek DNA is most similar to: a) Italian DNA, b) French DNA, c) Spanish DNA, d) Turkish DNA. (no link)

5) The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors." (no link)

DejaVu
25-01-11, 22:18
There is no more to discuss in normal way its already out of control with spammers.

Told you all to stop posting and start a new tread, you did not want that lets continue with political discussions that nobody cares about. Wanna play low IQ people lets continue.

Marianne
25-01-11, 22:44
Actually, many of the words are present all over Balkan, also in Macedonia....
Many or at least some of them are likely to origin from Greece....
Before Ottomans arrived to Asia minor, Greek was main spoken language there....
In fact, modern Turkish people largely origin from pre-Ottoman native Greek speaking people, and thus it is quite normal if modern Turkish has lot of loan words of Greek origin...and I do not understand purpose of listing these words shared between turkish and Greek....so what if some Turkish words are adapted in areas that were part of Ottoman empire... even if the whole vocabulary is shared that would mean nothing when it comes to genetics and origin....

btw. Deja Vu, can't you be more relaxed about topics we discuss here? I don't think most of people who come here are in mood to participate in argues and little wars with imaginary enemies....discussions should not be about propganada-like shouting on each other, but a joint effort to figure out what might be the truth about history events.... if you are not able to participate in discussions in civilized way with respect for other people and their origin, perhaps forums are not best place for you and maybe you should consider joining some army or some religious sect that will provide you with enemies and allow you to live in black/white them/us division of the world...

I was about to post something like that but you did it first! Dankjewel :smile:

This whole thread seems stupid after all these posts... DejaVu's posts are filled with propaganda and he clearly has not critical thinking. If I didn't know that most people from FYROM have been fed lies by their government the last 30 years I would think he has mental issues (no offense).

DejaVu
25-01-11, 22:49
After your fake conclusions you have been revealed and now you are blind again? My post just showed your identity and there will be more so continue to have anger. You are so fake that you cant even answer your own admits.

Marianne
25-01-11, 22:52
No one has anger here but you. And your posts don't really show anything... You keep contradicting yourself. What you read online and what people tell you is not always correct.

I won't bother replying to you anymore because you are irrational and I can't make irrational people believe that the sky is blue... (Greek proverb). If they want the sky to be red I just let them be...

DejaVu
25-01-11, 22:54
Ofcourse you are blind your IQ is so low that you cant see the facts.

When are you going to confirm your statements?

Summary:

1) The DNA make-up of today's Greeks is 99.5% white. The study cliams that today's Greek has 99.5% the same DNA make-up as as the white Greeks of ancient times. (no link)

2) Contrary to beliefs by many in Turkey and certain Slavic nations of ex-Yugoslavia, Greek DNA has not been influenced, nor altered, by the mixture of Slavic or Turkish DNA, even though Ottomans ruled a large part of Greece for 400 years. (no link)

3) Out of a sample of 925 modern-day Greek DNA, only 0.4% exhibited non-white DNA. (no link)

4) To a large extenet, Greeks of the ancient time "transfered" their DNA to other parts of Europe through their conquests. The study showed that, today, Greek DNA is most similar to: a) Italian DNA, b) French DNA, c) Spanish DNA, d) Turkish DNA. (no link)

5) The DNA of Italians in modern day southern Italy is the closest match to the DNA of their Greek neighbors." (no link)


Be proud and be Turkish christians, your real identity.

Marianne
25-01-11, 22:56
It's all in Dianekes blogspot. You can find it in google and search for yourself. Goodnight

DejaVu
26-01-11, 00:21
Bible information.

DANIEL 8:20-21
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calc...html?bcb=right (http://www.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom25.iii.xxv.html?bcb=right)
20. The ram which thou sawest having two horns are the kings of Media and Persia.
21. And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.
By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum. Therefore the meaning is — the king of Greece.


http://www.openbible.info/ (http://www.openbible.info/)

Acts 16:9 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-9.htm) A vision appeared to Paul in the night. There was a man of Macedonia standing, begging him, and saying, "Come over into Macedonia and help us."

Acts 16:10 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-10.htm) When he had seen the vision, immediately we sought to go out to Macedonia, concluding that the Lord had called us to preach the Good News to them.
Acts 16:12 (http://bible.cc/acts/16-12.htm) and from there to Philippi, which is a city of Macedonia, the foremost of the district, a Roman colony. We were staying some days in this city.
Acts 18:5 (http://bible.cc/acts/18-5.htm) But when Silas and Timothy came down from Macedonia, Paul was compelled by the Spirit, testifying to the Jews that Jesus was the Christ.
Acts 19:21 (http://bible.cc/acts/19-21.htm) Now after these things had ended, Paul determined in the spirit, when he had passed through Macedonia and Achaia, to go to Jerusalem, saying, "After I have been there, I must also see Rome."
Acts 19:22 (http://bible.cc/acts/19-22.htm) Having sent into Macedonia two of those who served him, Timothy and Erastus, he himself stayed in Asia for a while.
Acts 20:1 (http://bible.cc/acts/20-1.htm) After the uproar had ceased, Paul sent for the disciples, took leave of them, and departed to go into Macedonia.
Acts 20:3 (http://bible.cc/acts/20-3.htm) When he had spent three months there, and a plot was made against him by Jews as he was about to set sail for Syria, he determined to return through Macedonia.
Romans 15:26 (http://bible.cc/romans/15-26.htm) For it has been the good pleasure of Macedonia and Achaia to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints who are at Jerusalem.
1 Corinthians 16:5 (http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/16-5.htm) But I will come to you when I have passed through Macedonia, for I am passing through Macedonia.
2 Corinthians 1:16 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/1-16.htm) and by you to pass into Macedonia, and again from Macedonia to come to you, and to be sent forward by you on my journey to Judea.
2 Corinthians 2:13 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/2-13.htm) I had no relief for my spirit, because I didn't find Titus, my brother, but taking my leave of them, I went out into Macedonia.
2 Corinthians 7:5 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/7-5.htm) For even when we had come into Macedonia, our flesh had no relief, but we were afflicted on every side. Fightings were outside. Fear was inside.
2 Corinthians 8:1 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/8-1.htm) Moreover, brothers, we make known to you the grace of God which has been given in the assemblies of Macedonia;
2 Corinthians 9:2 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/9-2.htm) for I know your readiness, of which I boast on your behalf to them of Macedonia, that Achaia has been prepared for a year past. Your zeal has stirred up very many of them.
2 Corinthians 11:9 (http://bible.cc/2_corinthians/11-9.htm) When I was present with you and was in need, I wasn't a burden on anyone, for the brothers, when they came from Macedonia, supplied the measure of my need. In everything I kept myself from being burdensome to you, and I will continue to do so.
Philippians 4:15 (http://bible.cc/philippians/4-15.htm) You yourselves also know, you Philippians, that in the beginning of the Good News, when I departed from Macedonia, no assembly shared with me in the matter of giving and receiving but you only.
1 Thessalonians 1:7 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/1-7.htm) so that you became an example to all who believe in Macedonia and in Achaia.
1 Thessalonians 1:8 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/1-8.htm) For from you the word of the Lord has been declared, not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith toward God has gone out; so that we need not to say anything.
1 Thessalonians 4:10 (http://bible.cc/1_thessalonians/4-10.htm) for indeed you do it toward all the brothers who are in all Macedonia. But we exhort you, brothers, that you abound more and more; 1 Timothy 1:3 (http://bible.cc/1_timothy/1-3.htm) As I urged you when I was going into Macedonia, stay at Ephesus that you might command certain men not to teach a different doctrine,

If Greece is same as Macedonia why dont they use the name Greece?



Bible Study Lesson for Acts 20:1-6: Through Macedonia and Greece

Acts chapter 20 can be broken up into two short and one long section. Verses 1-6 briefly describes Paul's travels in Macedonia and Greece. Verses 7-12 describes the story of how a young man named Eutychus was raised from the dead. Verses 13-38 describes Paul's emotional farewell to the elders from Ephesus.

Read Acts 20:1. Paul, remember, is currently on his third missionary journey. { Hand out books with the third missionary journey maps. Ask them to find Ephesus on their maps } My commentary said Paul had four main things he wanted to accomplish: 1) Leave Ephesus; 2) preach in Troas on his way to Macedonia { Ask the group to find Troas on their maps }; 3) meet Titus at Troas with a report from Corinth. This is based on 2 Corinthians 2:12-13; and 4) continue collecting an offer for the church in Judea. This is based on 1 Corinthians 16:1-4, 2 Corinthians 8:1-4. The Jerusalem (http://www.associatedcontent.com/topic/19209/jerusalem.html) church, at this time, may have been poverty stricken either because of famine or because of persecution.

Read Acts 20:2-3. Luke does not give us specifics about Paul's travel through Macedonia into Greece, but it is believed that the three months spent in Greece was in Corinth. { Ask group to look at their maps again and trace Paul's estimated path from Ephesus to Corinth } My commentary said that these three months were probably the winter months, when it would not have been safe to sail. It is during his time in Corinth that he would have received the collection for the relief of the Judean Christians. { Put up symbol of money bags on flannel board }

When Paul's three months are up, he wants to sail back to Syria (that is Antioch), but discovers a plot against him. My commentary proved this information: "The Jews were determined to take Paul's life; also, at this time he was carrying the offering for the Christians in Judea, so there would have been a temptation for theft as well. The port at Cenchrea would have provided a convenient place for Paul's enemies to detect him as he entered a ship to embark for Syria." So, at the last minute, it sounds like, he changes his mind and decides to retrace his route through Greece and Macedonia.

Why is Macedonia and Greece mentioned as separate countries/nationalities?
Because they are different nations/nationality since the beginning of existence.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 00:32
The real Greeks?
Archbishop Ieronymos II of Athens (ARVANITE)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Ieronymos_II_of_Athens (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archbishop_Ieronymos_II_of_Athens)
He was born Ioannis Liapis (Greek: Ιωάννης Λιάπης, Iōánnēs Liápēs) in Oinofyta, Boeotia. He is an Arvanite. (Albanian)

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/john_bintliff-139.png (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/john_bintliff-139.png)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlos_Kountouriotis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavlos_Kountouriotis) (ARVANITE)
Pavlos Kountouriotis (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Παύλος Κουντουριώτης, 9 April 1855 - 22 August 1935) was a Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) admiral (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Admiral) and naval hero during the Balkan Wars (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Balkan_Wars) and the first and third (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_heads_of_state_of_Greece#Second_Hellenic_R epublic_.281924-1935.29) President of the Second Hellenic Republic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/President_of_Greece).
Pavlos Kountouriotis was a member of the Arvanite (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Arvanites) Kountouriotis family which originated from the island of Hydra, Saronic Islands (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hydra,_Saronic_Islands) as many of the heroes of 1821; many members of the family took part in the Greek War of Independence (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence), including his grandfather, Georgios Kountouriotis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Georgios_Kountouriotis), who was Prime Minister of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_Greece) under King Otto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Otto_of_Greece). The original family name was Zervas but was changed to Kountouriotis, since one of their ancestors lived for a while in the village of Kountoura, Megarida.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece) (GERMAN)
Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria or Othon, king of Greece (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Ὄθων, Βασιλεὺς τῆς Ἑλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Greek_monarchs) of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) in 1832 under the Convention of London (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/London_Conference_of_1832), whereby Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Great_Powers) (the United Kingdom (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland), France (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/July_Monarchy) and the Russian Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Russian_Empire)).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis) (VLACH)
Ioannis Kolettis (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ιωάννης Κωλέττης) (1773[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] - 1847) was a Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) politician of Vlach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians) origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias) (Venetian)
Count (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Κόμης Ιωάννης Αντώνιος Καποδίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias, in Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language): Giovanni Capo d'Istria, Conte Capo d'Istria, and in Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): граф Иоанн Каподистрия – Graf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graf) Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) diplomat of the Russian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire) and later first head of state of independent Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Hellenic_Republic).
Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu),(Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek), one of the Ionian Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Islands), which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice) . He studied medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine), philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) and the law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law) at Padua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padua), in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu. He was throughout his life a deeply liberal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism) thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a conte (count) by Charles Emmanuel II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Emmanuel_II), Duke of Savoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Savoy), and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the Libro d'Oro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_d%27Oro) of the Corfu nobility; the title originates from Capodistria, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koper) in Slovenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia) and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma) from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized. His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori. His mother's family, the Gonemi, had been listed in the Libro d'Oro since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu), the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 00:40
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey
The 1923 population exchange between Greece and Turkey was based upon religious identity, and involved the Greek Orthodox (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church) citizens of Turkey and the Muslim (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Muslim) citizens of Greece. It was a major compulsory population exchange (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Population_transfer), or agreed mutual expulsion.
The "Convention Concerning the Exchange of Greek and Turkish Populations" was signed at Lausanne (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lausanne), Switzerland (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Switzerland), on the 30th January 1923, by the governments of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) and Turkey (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkey). It involved approximately 2 million people, most of whom were forcibly made refugees and de jure (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/De_jure) denaturalized from their homelands.

The criteria for the population exchange was not excusively confined to ethnicity or mother language, but on religion as well. That is why the Karamanlides (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Karamanlides) (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Καραμανλήδες; Turkish (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkish_language): Karamanlılar), or simply Karamanlis, who were a Turkish (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Turkish_language)-speaking (while they employed the Greek alphabet to write it) Greek Orthodox (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church) people of unclear origin and were deported from their native regions of Karaman (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Karaman) and Cappadocia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cappadocia) in Central Anatolia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Central_Anatolia) to Greece as well. On the other hand, Cretan Muslims (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cretan_Turks) who were part of the exchange were re-settled mostly on the Aegean coast of Turkey, in areas formerly inhabited by Christian Greeks. Populations of Greek descent can still be found in the Pontos (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pontos), remnants of the former Greek population that converted to Islam in order to escape the persecution and later deportation. Though these two groups are of ethnic Greek descent, they speak Turkish as a mother language and are very cautious to identify themselves as Greeks, due to the hostility of the Turkish state and neighbours towards anything Greek.

1914 document showing the official figures from the 1914 population census of the Ottoman Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire). The total population (sum of all the millets (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Millet_(Ottoman_Empire))) was given at 20,975,345, and the Greek population was given at 1,792,206.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4e/Proportions_des_populations_en_Asie_Mineure_statis tique_officielle_d1914.png/499px-Proportions_des_populations_en_Asie_Mineure_statis tique_officielle_d1914.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4e/Proportions_des_populations_en_Asie_Mineure_statis tique_officielle_d1914.png)

DejaVu
26-01-11, 00:43
Greek Refugee Settlement
Source: “Crossing the Aegean: The Consequences of the 1923 Greek-Turkish Population Exchange” by Renee Hirschon, 2003, page 181.
http://makedonika.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/181-6.png?w=409&h=543 (http://makedonika.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/181-6.png)

“A Concise History of Greece” by Richard Clogg, 1992, page 105
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/Refugee_settlement_concentration_ma.png

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece))
Macedonia (Greece) - Population2,625,681 (2006 Estimate)
Regional identity
Macedonians (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Μακεδόνες, Makedónes) is the term by which ethnic Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks) originating from the region are known. Macedonians came to be of particular importance during the Balkan Wars (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Balkan_Wars) when they were a minority population inside the Ottoman province of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Greece). The Macedonians now have a strong regional identity, manifested both in Greece and by emigrant groups in the Greek diaspora (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_diaspora). This sense of identity has been highlighted in the context of the Macedonian naming dispute (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_naming_dispute) after the break-up of Yugoslavia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Breakup_of_Yugoslavia), in which Greece objects to its northern neighbour calling itself the "Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia)", since explicit self-identification as Macedonian is a matter of national pride for many Greeks. A characteristic expression of this attitude could be seen when Greek newspapers headlined a declaration by Prime Minister (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Greece) Kostas Karamanlis (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kostas_Karamanlis) at a meeting of the Council of Europe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Council_of_Europe) in Strasbourg (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Strasbourg) in January 2007, saying that "I myself am a Macedonian, and another two and a half million Greeks are Macedonians."
The exact size of the linguistic and ethnic minority groups of Macedonia is officially unknown, as Greece has not conducted a census on the question of mother tongue since 1951.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region))
Macedonian Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonians_(Greek)) are ethnic Greeks who self-identify regionally as "Macedonians" (Greek: Μακεδόνες, Makedónes). They form the majority of the region's population (~51%). They number approximately 2,500,000 and live almost entirely in Greek Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)). The Greek Macedonian population is mixed, with indigenous and a large influx of Greek refugees descending from Asia Minor (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Asia_Minor), Pontic Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pontians), and East Thracian Greeks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Eastern_Thrace) in the early 20th century. This is due to the population exchange between Greece and Turkey (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey), during which over 1.2 million Christian refugees from Turkey were settled in Greece, 638,000 of whom were settled in Macedonia. Smaller Greek minorities exist in Bulgaria and the Republic of Macedonia, although their numbers are difficult to ascertain. In official census results, only 86 persons declared themselves Greeks in Bulgarian Macedonia (Blagoevgrad Province) in 2001, out of a total of 3,408 in all Bulgaria; while 442 described themselves as Greeks in the 2002 census in the Republic of Macedonia.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 00:46
The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-front.png (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-front.png)
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-287.png
1.8% ethnic Macedonians in Greece.
1.5% Albanians in Greece.
1.4% Turks in Greece.
0.9% Pomaks in Greece.
0.9% Roms (Gypsies) in Greece.
3.1% Other nationality in Greece.
90.4% Greeks in Greece.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece
And this are the statistics in Wikipedia.
93.8% Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks),
4.3% Albanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians),
1.9% others

DejaVu
26-01-11, 02:00
Good to know.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Teresa
Mother Teresa (26 August 1910 – 5 September 1997), born Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu

Mother Teresa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mother_Teresa) (Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu) // In Aromanian "Boiagi".
[Boiagi's are a wellknown Aromanian family originally from Albania. Her father Nikolla Boiagi was aromanian.]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Aromanians

iapetoc
26-01-11, 02:09
before you mention bible
read again and again the original
it is written in greeks
and says in fillipi and thesaloniki they stayed among greeks
meaning that makedonia and greeks are the same

read bible carefully

iapetoc
26-01-11, 02:24
first the city names

acts 16 11 Neapolis-> newcity
acts 15 11 samothrce
acts 15 12 Philippoi
acts 17 1 Amfipolis
acts 17 1 Apollonia
acts 17 1 Thessaloniki not Solunu you ......
acts 17 13 Beroia


now 2nd lets see people names

Lydia and Jason both Greek Names


and finnaly WHO ARE THE MAKEDONIANS

ACTS 17 12 THE VIP OF GREEK WOMAN, AND FROM GREEK MAN NOT A FEW

SO IN MAKEDONIA ACCORDING TO PAUL LIVE THE GREEKS

MORE????

ACTS 20 1,2 HE WENT OUT TO MAKEDONIA, SO HE ENTERED GREECE, SO MAKEDONIA IS GREEK
ACTS 20 21 TO JUDIANS AND GREEKS (MAKEDONIA CITIZENS)


WHAT ELSE YOUR PROPAGANDA SPEAK
YOU SAY PAUL SHOW A MAN MAKEDON AND CLAIM MAKEDONIA IS NOT GREEK
AND BEHIND SAYS THAT THAT MAKEDONIA DWELT BY GREEKS
SO YOU TAKE ONLY HALF AND MAKE SPAM AND YOU DONT ALL BECAUSE THE TRUTH IS AGAINST YOU
I LEAVE THE OTHERS OF THE FORUM TO JUDGE YOU
SPAMMER

BESIDES HE WENT O THESSALONIKI NOT SOLUNU NOT SKOPJE
CAUSE IF WANTED TO GO THERE, PAUL PROBABLY SHOULD SEEN A SLAV MAN TO CALL HIM TO GO TO SKOPJE,
hAHAHAHAHA
YOUR PROPAGANDA IS JUST A HOAX WITH NO BASIS
YOU TELL ALWAYS THE HALF TRUE AND DIVERSE IT TO LIE,
AND WHEN THE TRUTH REVIELS THEN YOU STOP AND YOU JUMP TO ANOTHER LIE
hAHAHAHAHAHA

BESIDES LOOK AT STRABO

ΕΣΤΙΝ ΟΥΝ ΕΛΛΑΣ ΚΑΙ Η ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ

ACCEPT IT MAKEDONIA EPIROS CRETE PELOPONESE STEREA CYPRUS ARE PARTS OF GREEK NATION
AS BAYERN IS A PART OF GERMANY
AS LOMBARDIA OF ITALY
AS BRETAGNE OF FRANCE

GREECE HAD ALSO OTHER PARTS THAT TODAY BELONG TO OTHERS
LIKE MAGNA GRECIA (SOUTH ITALY AND SICILY)
IONIA (MINOR ASIA)
THRACE AND WEST BLACK SEA
AND PONTUS SOUTH BLACK SEA

EVEN TODAY LIVE GREEKS THERE BUT THAT AREAS ARE LOST

DejaVu
26-01-11, 02:37
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_the_Apostle
Paul the Apostle, also called the Apostle Paul, Paul of Tarsus, and Saint Paul, (Ancient Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ancient_Greek): Σαούλ (Saul), Σαῦλος (Saulos), and Παῦλος (Paulos); Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Latin): Paulus or Paullus; Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_language): שאול התרסי‎ Šaʾul HaTarsi (Saul of Tarsus) (c. 5 - c. 67 ), was of the tribe of Benjamin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Tribe_of_Benjamin). He was a zealous Jew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Zealot#Paul_the_Apostle), who persecuted the early followers of Jesus Christ. However after his "Resurrection experience" (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Conversion_of_Paul), he began calling himself a Christian and referred to himself as the "Apostle (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Apostle_(Christian)) to the Gentiles (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Gentiles)".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki
Thessaloniki (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Θεσσαλονίκη, IPA: [θesaloˈnici] (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_Greek)), Thessalonica or Salonica is the second-largest city (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_largest_cities_and_second_largest_cities_b y_country) in Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) and the capital of the region of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(Greece)). Its honorific title is Συμπρωτεύουσα (Symprotévousa), literally "co-capital", a reference to its historical status as the Συμβασιλεύουσα (Symvasilévousa) or "co-reigning" city of the Byzantine Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantine_Empire), alongside Constantinople (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Constantinople).
The city was founded around 315 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/315_BC) by the King Cassander of Macedon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Cassander), on or near the site of the ancient town of Therma (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Therma) and 26 other local villages. He named it after his wife Thessalonike (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thessalonice_of_Macedon), a half-sister of Alexander the Great (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Alexander_the_Great) (Thessalo-nikē means the "Thessalian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thessalian) victory") (See Battle of Crocus field (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Crocus_field)). It was an autonomous part of the Kingdom of Macedon. After the fall of the kingdom of Macedon in 168 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/168_BC), Thessalonica became a city of the Roman Republic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_Republic). It grew to be an important trade-hub located on the Via Egnatia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Via_Egnatia); it facilitated trade between Europe and Asia. The city became the capital of one of the four Roman districts of Macedonia.


What people lived in Thessalonica when Paul the Apostle arrived there year (c. 5 - c. 67 )? Macedonians and maybe Romans, no others are mentioned there at that time. If Javans (Greeks) they mean Macedonians.
By the word “Javan” the Hebrews designate not only the Greeks but the: Macedonians, and the whole of that tract which is divided by the Hellespont, from Asia Minor as far as Illyricum.

There is two places mentioned Macedonia and Greece, why?
If its the same why mention Macedonia and Greece, instead of Greece only, was it not the same place?
Since when did the Ancient Macedonians get along with rest of the occupied Greeks (Greeks were occupied by Ancient Macedonians at that time before Romans conquered them).

iapetoc
26-01-11, 03:13
BESIDES WHO CARES
TOMORROW YOU WILL BE KOSSYFO PEOPLE

YOU BELONG TO KOSSYFOPEDIO AS BEFORE
YOU ARE HALF ALBANIANS

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8f/Kosovo03.png

iapetoc
26-01-11, 03:17
you are ignorant
new teastament was written in greek not hebrew

and names clearly that Makedonia ARE GREEKS , NOT JAVANS BUT HELLENES

ACTS 17 12

YOU SO IGNORANT THAT YOU INSIST THAT NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN IN HEBREW

OH NO I M MISTAKEN MAYBE NEW TESTAMENT WAS WRITTEN IN SLAVO-MAKEDONIAN

HAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHA WHY CROATIA IS HRVATSKA AND DALMATIA?
DALMATIA IS NOT CROATIA?
WHY WE SAY BAYERN MUNCHEN
BAYERN IS NOT GERMANY?

HAHAHAHAHA
KEEP DREAMING

IT MENTIONS AREAS NOT NATIONS
PAUL IS MENTIONING AREAS NOT NATIONS
THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK

DejaVu
26-01-11, 03:23
Mr. Exclusive fake Greek

Are you starting to lose yourself again? Are you on drugs?
Cant you understand what the sources are saying?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Testament
The New Testament (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Koine_Greek): Καινὴ Διαθήκη, Kainē Diathēkē) is the second major division of the Christian biblical canon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Christian_biblical_canons), the first such division being the much longer Old Testament (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Testament).
The common languages spoken by both Jews and Gentiles in the Holy Land at the time of Jesus were Aramaic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aramaic_of_Jesus), Koine Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Koine_Greek), and to a limited extent a colloquial dialect of Mishnaic Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mishnaic_Hebrew). All of the books that would eventually form the New Testament were written in Koine Greek, the vernacular dialect in the Roman provinces (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_province) of the Eastern Mediterranean (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mediterranean) at the time. These books were later translated into other languages, most notably, Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Latin), Syriac (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Syriac_language), and Coptic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Coptic_language). However, some of the Church Fathers imply or claim that Matthew was originally written in Hebrew (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Hebrew_Gospel_of_Matthew) or Aramaic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aramaic). Nevertheless, the Gospel of Matthew known today was composed in Greek and is neither directly dependent upon nor a translation of a text in a Semitic language (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Semitic_languages), though the citation of texts from the Old Testament (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Old_Testament) demonstrates that the author of the Gospel of Matthew did know Hebrew.

DOES NOT SAY IT WAS WRITTEN BY ANY GREEK (Koine was not exclusive for Greeks only).
SO STOP THE DRUGS AND BE NORMAL.
You win the price for the dumbest haplogroup G person on this forum.

iapetoc
26-01-11, 03:30
Relax
the ww1 is over
bulgaria has lost
tito is dead
and albanians are ready to claim tetovo to kossovo
soon you ll ask for a new id

DejaVu
26-01-11, 03:36
WANNA PLAY PATRIOT? IF YOU WANT TO PLAY STUPID THEN I HAVE TO BE ON YOUR LEVEL WHEN WE CONTINUE THE DISCUSSIONS, BECAUSE YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ENGLISH.

Be ready to lose Macedonia in 2013 when 100 years are gone and the treaty ends.
Over 1 million Macedonians are waiting in your country, to kick your ass.
Albanians want Epirus back from your occupation so count about 1 more million that want their share back. And all other minority people who want their identity recognition. Not many Greeks left in the Fake Greek country.


http://makedonija.name/images/history/twentieth_century/division_fullmap.gif
"Map of ethnical-geographical Macedonia, a territory that
was never Greek, Bulgarian, nor Serbian before 1913"


UNITED MACEDONIA FOR THE MACEDONIANS.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treaty_of_Bucharest_(1913)
SMRT ILI SLOBODA.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/62/Flag_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia_1991-1995.svg/600px-Flag_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia_1991-1995.svg.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/62/Flag_of_the_Republic_of_Macedonia_1991-1995.svg)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/23/Ethnic_flag_of_the_Macedonians.png/800px-Ethnic_flag_of_the_Macedonians.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Ethnic_flag_of_the_Macedonians.png)

DejaVu
26-01-11, 03:50
OCCUPIED TERRITORIES

Map showing the original territory of the Kingdom of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) as laid down in the Treaty of 1832 (in dark blue).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF/800px-Greekhistory.GIF (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Greekhistory.GIF)
The consequences of the Greek revolution were somewhat ambiguous in the immediate aftermath. An independent Greek state had been established, but with Britain, Russia and France claiming a major role in Greek politics, an imported Bavarian dynast as ruler, and a mercenary army.[123] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence#cite_note-Jelavich229-34-122) The country had been ravaged by ten years of fighting, was full of displaced refugees and empty Turkish estates, necessitating a series of land reforms over several decades.[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence#cite_note-Sowards-29)
The population of the new state numbered 800,000, representing less than one-third of the 2.5 million Greek inhabitants of the Ottoman Empire. During a great part of the next century, the Greek state was to seek the liberation of the "unredeemed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentism)" Greeks of the Ottoman Empire, in accordance with the Megali Idea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea), i.e. the goal of uniting all Greeks in one country.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea)
Megali Idea (modern Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modern_Greek): ΜεγάληΙδέα, "Great Idea") was an irredentist (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irredentist) concept of Greek nationalism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_nationalism) that expressed the goal of establishing a Greek state that would encompass all ethnic Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks), since large Greek populations after the Greek independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) in 1832 still lived under the Ottoman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) rule.
The term appeared for the first time during the debates of Prime Minister (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Ministers_of_Greece)Ioannis Kolettis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis) with King Otto (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece) that preceded the promulgation of the 1844 constitution.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Megali_Idea#cite_note-BA0-0) This was a visionary nationalist aspiration that was to dominate foreign relations and, to a significant extent, to determine the domestic politics of the Greek state for much of the first century of its independent existence. If the expression was new in 1844, the concept had roots in the Greek popular psyche, nurtured as it was by the prophecies and oracles that had kept alive, hopes of eventual liberation from Turkish rule.
Megali Idea implied the goal of reviving the Byzantine Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) by establishing a Greek state (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), which would be, as ancient geographer Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo) wrote, a Greek world encompassing mostly the former Byzantine lands from the Ionian Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Sea) to Mikra Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikra_Asia) (Asia Minor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Minor)) and Euxenus Pontus (Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea)) to the east, and from Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace), Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)) and Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_(region)), north, to Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) and Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) to the south. This new state will have its capital in Constantinople (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantinople).
The Megali Idea dominated the foreign policy and the domestic politics of Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), from the War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) in the 1820s through the Balkan wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkan_wars) in the beginning of the twentieth century. It started to disappear after the defeat of Greece in the Greco-Turkish War (1919-1922) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greco-Turkish_War_(1919-1922)) and the Great Fire of Smyrna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Fire_of_Smyrna) in 1922, followed by the exchange of population between Greece and Turkey in 1923 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_exchange_between_Greece_and_Turkey).

DejaVu
26-01-11, 04:04
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_(region)
Borders of Macedonia according to different authors (1843–1927)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png/800px-Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/df/Borders_of_Macedonia_according_authors_%281843-1927%29.png)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S9_P2pbWP7I/AAAAAAAAFFY/IfXlIxzebKk/s1600/gladstonegoodra4.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Ewart_Gladstone
William Ewart Gladstone FRS FSS (29 December 1809 – 19 May 1898) was a British (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/United_Kingdom) Liberal (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Liberal_Party_(UK)) statesman (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Statesman). In a career lasting over sixty years, he served as Prime Minister (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prime_Minister_of_the_United_Kingdom) four times (1868–1874, 1880–1885, February–July 1886 and 1892–1894), more than any other person. Gladstone was 84 years old - still physically vigorous albeit with failing hearing and eyesight - when he resigned for the last time, making him Britain's oldest Prime Minister. He also served as Chancellor of the Exchequer (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Chancellor_of_the_Exchequer) four times (1853–1855, 1859–1866, 1873–1874, and 1880–1882).

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Ewart_Gladstone

The hopelessness of the Turkish Government should make me witness with delight its being swept out of the countries which it tortures. Next to the Ottoman Government nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy than jealousies between Greek and Slav and plans by the States already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not Macedonia for the Macedonians as well as Bulgaria for the Bulgarians and Serbia for the Serbians?

Letter quoted in The Times (London), Mr. Gladstone and The Balkan Confederation (1897 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/1897)-02-06 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/February_6)).

iapetoc
26-01-11, 04:27
At least i will die as my father Leonidas

come and get it

Μολων λαβε

2 000 000 Makedonians will await you 2013

No union with Slavs even if NATO wants it,


besiides tetovo to albania, kumanovo to serbia, strumnitsa to bulgaria
the end of the hoax

AND THE GREEK KIDS THAT TITO KIDNAPED BACK TO GREECE



TRUE MAKEDONIAN NATIONAL ANTHEM

ΜΑΚΕΔΟΝΙΑ ΞΑΚΟΥΣΤΗ ΤΟΥ ΑΛΕΞΑΝΔΡΟΥ Η ΧΩΡΑ
OH FAMOUS MAKEDONIA, ALEXANDERS COUNTRY
ΠΟΥ ΕΔΙΩΞΕΣ ΤΟΥΣ ΒΟΥΛΓΑΡΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΛΕΥΘΕΡΗ ΕΙΣΑΙ ΠΑΛΙ
YOU KICKED BACK BULGARIANS AND YOU ARE FREE AGAIN
ΗΣΟΥΝ ΚΑΙ ΘΑ ΣΑΙ ΕΛΛΗΝΙΚΗ ΕΛΛΗΝΩΝ ΤΟ ΚΑΜΑΡΙ
YOU WERE AND YOU WILL BE GREEK , THE PRIDE OF ALL GREEKS

I AM MAKEDONIAN ORIGINAL FROM BALLA PIERIA
I AM NOT A SLAV
I DONT CLAIM SKOPJE CAUSE ITS NOT MY LAND
STOP CLAIMING MY LAND MY NATIONALITY AND MY HISTORY AND IDENTITY

MY GRAND GRAND FATHER SUFFERED ENOUGH OF YOU,
HE FOUGHT YOU AT NAOUSA AND EDESSA LOST HIS FOOT
YOU TOOK 16 KIDS OF OUR VILLAGE AT 1948
NO MORE

IN THE BIBLE AT ACTS 17 12 SAYS THAT MAKEDONIA WAS INHABITED BY GREEKS

I COME FROM THE TRUE ANCIENT MAKEDONIA

NO TREATY WILL TELL ME WHO I AM
BESIDES I LIVE IN MY FATHERS LANDS


I DONT WANT TO LIVE IN A COUNTRY WITH 4 NATIONS 3 RELIGIONS
GREEKS ALBANIANS SERBS AND BULGARIANS
ORTHODOX CATHOLIC AND MUSLIM
BESIDES THAT AREA OF VARDASKA IS NOT MY COUNTRY, AND NEVER WAS

LOOK CAREFULLY SKOPJE IS OUT
THAT IS MY COUNTRY AND LAND

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Macedonian_Kingdom.jpg



i said that new testament was written in Greek, and Lucas was a Greek
so the Acts of Apostols is tottaly Hellenic language (not Greek koine but Hellenistic Koine)
and in new testament says clerly that in Thessaloniki not Solun apostolos Paulos lived among Greeks
were it says Slavians????
you were at Steppes that time
does he says SLAVIANS ???? DOES HE SAYS BULGARIANS? OR SERBS?
NO IT SAYS GREEKS ROMAN AND JEWS

why? cause you were at Ucraine or Slovakia or above Donau at that time

Understand English and stop Pretending
You are a Slav a Slav who lived many years in ex SERBIAN CAPITAL, AND SPEAK BULGARIAN

you have the right for a country but not the right to steal my History
stop dreaming

the only acceptable name is Slavo-Makedonia

You are funny you claim my history, my name my lands my country, and you believe that i will let you? or i believe you?

all refuges came here under exchange of population
turks left greeks came
Bulgarian left Greeks
40 000 people of Monastiri (bitola came to Greece)
except Perlepe etc

how many went to skopje????
excange of population was done,
this is not 1913

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monastir_Province,_Ottoman_Empire

There is opposing ethnographic data from that period, but it appears that no specific ethnic or religious group could claim an absolute majority of the population. According to the 1911 Ottoman census (http://www.univ.trieste.it/%7Estoria/corsi/Dogo/tabelle/popolaz-ottomana1911.jpg), Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) were the largest Christian population in the vilayet, with 740,000 Greeks, 517,000 Bulgarians and 1,061,000 Muslims in the vilayets of Selanik (Thessaloniki) and Manastır.

in 1821 Monastir(bitola) revolt
and has 5 Greeks Heroes
Σωτήριος Δαμιάνοβις (http://el.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%CE%A3%CF%89%CF%84%CE%AE%CF%81%CE% B9%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%94%CE%B1%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%AC%CE%B D%CE%BF%CE%B2%CE%B9%CF%84%CF%82&action=edit&redlink=1)[5] (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AE%CF%81%C E%B9_%28%CE%A0%CE%93%CE%94%CE%9C%29#cite_note-4)[6] (http://el.wikipedia.org/wiki/%CE%9C%CE%BF%CE%BD%CE%B1%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AE%CF%81%C E%B9_%28%CE%A0%CE%93%CE%94%CE%9C%29#cite_note-5), ο Δημήτριος Βούλγαρης (http://el.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%CE%94%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%AE%CF%84%CF% 81%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%92%CE%BF%CF%8D%CE%BB%CE%B 3%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B7%CF%82_%28%CE%B1%CE%B3%CF%89%CE %BD%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AE%CF%82_%CF%84%CE%BF%CF% 85_1821%29&action=edit&redlink=1), ο Στέργιος Νικολάου (http://el.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%CE%A3%CF%84%CE%AD%CF%81%CE%B3%CE% B9%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%9D%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%A C%CE%BF%CF%85&action=edit&redlink=1), ο Νικόλαος Σακκούλας (http://el.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%CE%9D%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE% B1%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%A3%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%8 D%CE%BB%CE%B1%CF%82&action=edit&redlink=1) και ο Νικόλαος Αδάμης (http://el.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=%CE%9D%CE%B9%CE%BA%CF%8C%CE%BB%CE% B1%CE%BF%CF%82_%CE%91%CE%B4%CE%AC%CE%BC%CE%B7%CF%8 2&action=edit&redlink=1)

almost 65 000 greeks left area and came to Greece

even Manaki brothers who were Aromani vlachs (Armani) you make them Slavians
its a shame

besides its 2014 that is with turks
its 2012 and you know it well. the big bam

DejaVu
26-01-11, 04:45
Your father is not Leonidas, Pasha from Turkey is.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 05:04
You dont give up? Time for more jokes :)

I AM THE REAL ANCESTOR OF - PHILIP II MACEDON - WHO WILL PLACE A STATUE OF A LION AFTER MY VICTORY AND CONQUEST.

Philip II Macedon defeated the Illyrians, the Thracians, the Greeks, the Scythians, and Triballians.
Greek version, he united the greeks with a phalanx in their ass.

Evidence:
LUDVIG XVI and I are same from ROOT (Y-DNA - G2a3b1a), who is a relative to Philip II of Macedon.
(And so are all humans from Adam and Eve).


The Royal Bloodline Family Genealogy

by David Icke http://www.davidicke.com/ (https://www.flashback.org/leave.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.davidicke.com%2F)

http://educate-yourself.org/cn/bushbloodline.shtml (https://www.flashback.org/leave.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Feducate-yourself.org%2Fcn%2Fbushbloodline.shtml)

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/me...vingios_02.htm (https://www.flashback.org/leave.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.bibliotecapleyades.ne t%2Fmerovingians%2Fmerovingios_02.htm)

I have recently been sent a series of genealogical charts which detail a bloodline and its off shoots that will be highly relevant to the readers of The Biggest Secret. I had no idea of their existence when I wrote The Biggest Secret. Yet it reads like an index of the book and most, if not all, of the major players in the advancing agenda of global control over thousands of years. These charts are stunning confirmation that the same bloodlines have expanded their power out of the Near and Middle East of the ancient world to control the planet today, precisely as detailed in The Biggest Secret.

For readers of The Biggest Secret the following will prove extremely interesting:

The Merovingians

This bloodline and its offshoots includes a long line of pharaohs in ancient Egypt, including Rameses II (1295-1228 BC), who is considered to be the greatest pharaoh of all. He was his country's master architect (sacred geometry) and his name can be found on almost every ancient shrine. The gold mines of Nubia made him rich beyond the imagination. This bloodline also includes the extraterrestrial-human hybrids who ruled Sumer, Babylon, Greece, and Troy, and which, today, rule the world.

One common link in this bloodline is Philip of Macedonia (382-336BC),who married Olympias, and their son was Alexander the Great (356-323BC), a tyrant who plundered that key region of Greece, Persia, Syria, Phoenicia, Egypt, Babylon, the former lands of Sumer, and across into India before dying in Babylon at the age of 33. During his rule of Egypt he founded the city of Alexandria, one the greatest centers for esoteric knowledge in the ancient world. Alexander was taught by the Greek philosopher, Aristotle, who in turn was taught by Plato and he by Socrates. The bloodline and the hidden advanced knowledge have always gone together.

This key bloodline comes down through the most famous Egyptian queen, Cleopatra (60-30BC), who married the most famous Roman Emperor, Julius Caesar, and bore him a son, who became Ptolemy XIV. She also bore twins with Mark Anthony, who has his own connections to this line and its many offshoots; this bloodline also connects to Herod the Great, the "Herod" of the Jesus stories, and continues to the Roman Piso family who, as I explain in The Biggest Secret, wrote the Gospel stories and invented the mythical figure called Jesus!!; the same bloodline includes Constantine the Great, the Roman Emperor who, in 325AD, turned Christianity, based on his ancestors' stories, into the religion we know today, and King Ferdinand of Spain and Queen Isabella of Castile, the sponsors of Christopher Columbus, who instigated the horrific Spanish Inquisition (1478-1834) in which people were tortured and burned at the stake for in any way questioning the basis of the religion their various ancestors had created.

More than that, the most used version of the Bible [King James Bible] was commissioned and sponsored by another strand in the same bloodline, King James 1st of England. Just a coincidence, nothing to worry about! The line of James, according to genealogy sources listed below, can be traced back to 1550 BC and beyond and includes many Egyptian pharaohs, including Rameses II.

The bloodline moved into France and northern Europe through the Franks and Meroveus or Merovee, who gave his name to the Merovingian bloodline, and it continues with the rest of the Merovingian clan like Clovis and the Dagoberts who connect into the elite secret society, the Priory of Sion and the Rennes-le-Chateau "mystery" in Languedoc [Provence], Southern France. Many books have been written recently which claim that the Merovingians are the bloodline of "Jesus".

Some of these authors have just been mistaken, others have blatantly sought to confuse and mislead. The Merovingians are a key bloodline, yes, but it has nothing to do with Jesus, who was invented by an earlier family in the same line, the Pisos. Authors like Sir Laurence Gardner (Bloodline of the Holy Grail and a favorite of Nexus Magazine and its owner, Duncan Roads) MUST know this and yet they still connect the Merovingians to "Jesus". Why??

The Merovingians were Goddess Diana worshippers, as are so many in this line to the present day. They founded the city we call Paris and on one of their former sites of Diana ritual, Princess Diana was murdered in the Pont d'Alma tunnel (meaning "bridge or passage of the Moon Goddess") on August 31st, 1997. As The Biggest Secret points out, the Windsors, another Merovingian bloodline, were very much involved in this ritual murder.

From the Merovingians, this bloodline's connections to the present day include: Charlemagne (742-814), who ruled as Emperor of the West in the Holy Roman Empire; a stream of French kings, including Robert II, Philip Ist, II and III, and Louis Ist, II, VI, VII, VIII, VIIII, XIII, IX, XV, and XVI. The latter married Marie Antoinette of this same bloodline and both were executed in the French Revolution. But they produced the son who became Daniel Payseur, who, as The Biggest Secret explains, was taken to the United States where he became the secret force behind the Morgan and Carnegie empires and owned vast amounts of real estate, banking, and industrial holdings.

This bloodline also connects to the de Medici family which supported Christopher Columbus and produced Catherine de Medici, the Queen of France who died in 1589. Her doctor was Nostradamus: It includes Rene d'Anjou, Duke of Lorraine, and the House of Lorraine which employed Nostradamus and Christopher Columbus. The bloodline relatives of the de Medicis and the House of Lorraine, Queen Isabella of Castile and King Ferdinand of Spain, were also sponsors of Columbus when he "discovered" the Americas.

This bloodline also includes the Habsburgs, the most powerful family in Europe under the Holy Roman Empire; Geoffrey Plantagenet and the Plantagenet royal dynasty in England; King John, who signed the Magna Carta; King Henry Ist, II, and III, who were extremely close to the Knights Templar, as was King John; Mary Stuart and the Stuart Dynasty, including King James Ist of England, sponsor of the King James version of the Bible; King George Ist, II, and III; Edward Ist, II, and III, Queen Victoria; Edward VII; George V and VI; Queen Elizabeth II; Prince Charles and Elizabeth's other offspring, Anne, Andrew and Edward; Princes William and Harry from Charles' "marriage" to Princess Diana; US Presidents, George Washington, John Adams, John Quincy Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Franklin Delano Roosevelt, and George Bush are all named in the charts as strands of this bloodline; it was passed on to the year 2000 US presidential favorite, George W. Bush Jr., and his brother, Jeb Bush, the Governor of Florida.

In fact if you go deeply enough into the genealogical research you will find that ALL the presidents are from this line. Genealogical sources, like the New England Historical Genealogical Society and Burkes Peerage, have shown that 33 of the 42 presidents [up] to Clinton are related to Charlemagne and 19 are related to England's Edward III, both of whom are of this bloodline. A spokesman for Burkes Peerage, the bible of royal and aristocratic genealogy based in London, has said that every presidential election since and including George Washington in 1789 has been won by the candidate with the most royal genes. Now we can see how and why. United States presidents are not chosen by ballot, they are chosen by blood!

This same bloodline also includes key Scottish families like the Lords of Galloway and the Comyns; Marie-Louise of Austria, who married Napoleon Bonaparte; Kaiser Wilhelm II, the king of Germany at the time of the First World War; and Maximilian, the Habsburg emperor of Mexico, who died in 1867. On and on it goes into country after country. This bloodline connects into every surviving royal family in Europe, including King Juan Carlos of Spain and the Dutch, Swedish, and Danish royal lines.

And this is just ONE of the reptilian bloodlines and just SOME of its offshoots.

There are others which connect with these names and span the same period and beyond to thousands of years BC. Detailed family trees of the above are available on: Piso Homepage (http://www.angelfire.com/biz5/piso/ (https://www.flashback.org/leave.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.angelfire.com%2Fbiz5% 2Fpiso%2F))

LeBrok
26-01-11, 05:26
That's the Greeks good will to make friends and peace in Europe? I'm sorry Elias, I like you very much, but this is what I learnt from Eupedia posts, and take it from the impartial observer, who don't care for any of involved countries.

Greeks hate Turks, despise Albanians, Bulgarians are enemies, Macedonians want to destroy Greece, Serbians probably not much better, they are Slavs after all.
Can you see you don't have even one neighbour you can call a friend???!!!
And all I can hear is how victimized the Greece is. " They want to take our land, take our names away, we are the victims." Please, stop whining and show some positive action.

I'm not defending any other country mentioned, and I think they are not helping the cause of european unity much either. I'll be as much objective about them when a time comes.

Take it from impartial commentator.
Greeks are in state of Paranoia. And I don't see any cooperation or compromises here. For me the straw that broke the camel's back was the arguing about a "stupid" name.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 05:36
Only a non-greek can say what you just wrote and thats the real problem here.

If people think they can play hard then be ready to receive the same.

Greek view:
Its Impossible to talk about Macedonians and Macedonia its already Greek in their dream and thats end of discussion.

iapetoc
26-01-11, 07:08
Get lost, what positive, the man can't understand,
he claims my land my name me history,
teach him manners lebrok not me,
i don't claim nothing,
simply i dont want to enter in a state with 4 languges 4 nations 3 religions, to satisfy his dream
is he a Slavian or not?
ask him?

DejaVu are you a Slavian or not?

we don't want your offer,
even if Nato or other push us to do it we dont Wanted it,
keep your lands, stop claiming my identity and my lands, and then we move to future,

else the way is known,
the old good method
Mikhail Kalashnikov
Yuriiiiiiii

besides everybody knows who is behind Greek Crisis,
who pushed to IMF and who gone back to others

Lebrok if you are not a balkanian you can't understand,
yesterday we didn't know each other
today we drink wine together and have fun
tomorrow we fight with music still drunken
the day after we meet and cry,
and the day after the day after tomorrow we drink again

That is ballkan lebrok
Dejavu knows it,
we provoke each other, as we can drink wine in an Aegean beach, or slibovica in the banks of Bardar, and tomorrow fight , and the day after tomorrow still friends,
right now i am drink a family pack wine from SKOVIN skopje, brought by a friend,

when he brought it to me, i pass with blank tape over Makedonsko vino,
when i return him a Greek Makedonian halva he erase the Greek flag

when i go to my friends in Bulgaria I never say Plovdiv but Phillipopolis when he come in Greece never says Edessa or thessaloniki but Vodena and Solunu

only when i go to Serbia i don't meet such things,

it is simple the country that Dejavu offers me is according map
with 4 ethnicities 4 languages 3 religions
its not my home, not my language,
thank you i don't wanted it
skopje was never my land
its full of I2a2, which was never a Greek Haplogroup
meaning that even by blood is different,

tell them to stop claiming, and then we go on to better relations,
by claiming they only win enemies

this is not Korea that is divited by political
this a 2 different nations being one,
you cant put the bull and the wolf in the same stable

you may have 2 ox to pull a wagon or 2 horses, or 10 dogs
but you never put an ox with a dog or a horse with ox
have you ever seen that?
where the wagon go? to the lake or to the rocks?

it is simple they claim that lived in makedonia villaet, ok
so the name Makedonian for for them is what ?
a geogrfical area they live?
or a nationality?
cause if it is a geografical ok then they have also an ethicitie which?
but if is an ethnicitie then they admit that they are greek!!, or they are not!!!
as they say they are not,
so who are they?

tell me Lebrok
who are they?

for me they are either Paenones or slavs cause they speak slavian
ok let them have the ethnicitie and the Makedonian after
like
Slavo-Makedonia
or bulgaro -Makedonia
or Thraco-Makedonia
or Paionomakedonia

it is not the land that gives name to people,
its the people who give name to land
France is after Francais not Normands
Germany is after Deutch not Bayerns

let them stop claiming and name their nationality

your proposal are unacceptable 2 000 000 in Makedonia ,3 000 000 Makedonians in Greece, and 5 000 000, all over the world will always say the truth,

stop claiming my land and nationality you are unwelcome with that proposal

Marianne
26-01-11, 14:11
LeBrok I have told you before that since you are not from the balkans you will never be able to understand it. The Balkan nations are always in conflict with each other.

You are perfectly able to understand the situation in the Middle East right? Then you should think of the Balkans as a more peacefull version of what is going on there.

We are not lucky enough to be where France is and have Germany, England and Spain around us to live peacefully with them. Since ancient times our country has been the target of every expanding nation because of our geographical position. Everyone wants a piece of our land. We are used to defending our country against preditors... You can't walk in our shoes so you will never be able to understand it. Iapetoc described our relations very well in the post above, but still it is not easy to fully understand it unless you have lived here. The country you are living in doesn't have our problems. You don't have the Turks claiming the Aegean and west Thrace, you don't have FYROM claiming Macedonia, nor Albanians claiming Epirus. You have USA claiming nothing... You are lucky...

Elias2
26-01-11, 16:53
That's the Greeks good will to make friends and peace in Europe? I'm sorry Elias, I like you very much, but this is what I learnt from Eupedia posts, and take it from the impartial observer, who don't care for any of involved countries.

Greeks hate Turks, despise Albanians, Bulgarians are enemies, Macedonians want to destroy Greece, Serbians probably not much better, they are Slavs after all.
Can you see you don't have even one neighbour you can call a friend???!!!
And all I can hear is how victimized the Greece is. " They want to take our land, take our names away, we are the victims." Please, stop whining and show some positive action.

I'm not defending any other country mentioned, and I think they are not helping the cause of european unity much either. I'll be as much objective about them when a time comes.

Take it from impartial commentator.
Greeks are in state of Paranoia. And I don't see any cooperation or compromises here. For me the straw that broke the camel's back was the arguing about a "stupid" name.

Greece and bulgaria are fine with each other, both are in the EU, NATO, and share similar geographical interests. Greece and Albania are fine with each other, its just the nationalists that say otherwise. Greece and serbia and the other slavic countries, montenegro, ukraine, even russia, actually have really good relations with each other.

Greece and turkey, well, the agean warmongering and cyprus isn't helping, both of which are illegal, but you ask greece to comprismise? I don't think so. FYROM is built on lies and propaganda which promotes radical views and a distaste for the historical truth as seen here with dejavu who acts like a wild dog. FYROM adopted this "manifest vendetta" against greece because Bulgaria lost the second balkan war which Greece aquired greek macedonia. As long as they think they are 'ethnic macedonians', something I have proven wrong and only brought about due to communist brainwashing, the longer they hide from reality. You and I have similar views about european integration and understanding, but not much understanding on the issues keeping them apart.I don't think you "put yourself in the other persons shoes" when it comes to Greece here. How is a country or its citizens supposed to react when two of its neighbors have land claims against you and promote them domestically? Then you hear outside poeple saying find a comprimise, I'm sorry there is no comprimise to land claims against you, infact such claims could be seen as a decloration of war if they actually start sending war machines into your territory like turkey does in the agean.

You're entitled to your opinion of course.

LeBrok
26-01-11, 18:30
I'm glad that maybe it's not that bad as I thought. ;)

iapetoc
26-01-11, 18:59
Lebrok ask DejaVu,
What language that state is claiming shall have as Primary?
the slavomakedonian
or the GrecoMakedonian

What alphabet we have?
the Greek or the Cyrillic ???

who will be our Heroes my grand father who fought Bulgarians?
or his who fought Greeks
what history will write?

captain Litsas or Melas (true Makedonian)
or Yane Sandasky will be a hero? (SlavoMakedonian)

Besides look the difference
i write Makedonia with K as Greeks
he writes Macedonia with C as all slav do

do you understand now Lebrok?

Yugo-Slavia expirement is over, tito f... us All in balkans
how many people died by his policy?????

Why to make a new Yugoslavia of 4 nations 4 languages 3 religion
just to make wars Today and after 50 years to Break down and make a new war

that Dejavu is proposing is to Create a new Yugoslavia with the name Makedonia with the Treaty of 1913?????
or simply if we don't accept he will conquer us and always claim my nationality and lands

That is not a Friendly proposal

Elias2
26-01-11, 19:04
I'm 100% positive that once a comprimise has been reached between Greece and FYROM relations will only improve with each other as, like Bulgaria, FYROM and Greece have similar geographical interests with each other and good relations will emerge over time.

That will leave Greece to focus its attention to Turkey and solving the disputes there, though I'm not sure Turkey really wants to resolves the issues as they are on the wrong end of said disputes in international law. :confused2:

DejaVu
26-01-11, 19:06
Must repost you are avoiding facts AGAIN. NOTICE: Its not Titos Almanac.
If you are going to continue with lies then it will be more posts and reposts.


The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-front.png (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-front.png)
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-287.png
1.8% ethnic Macedonians in Greece.
1.5% Albanians in Greece.
1.4% Turks in Greece.
0.9% Pomaks in Greece.
0.9% Roms (Gypsies) in Greece.
3.1% Other nationality in Greece.
90.4% Greeks in Greece.


Greece does not recognize Macedonian minority in Greece.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)
And this are the statistics in Wikipedia.
93.8% Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks),
4.3% Albanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians),
1.9% others

Elias2
26-01-11, 19:08
Of course there is a macedonian minority in Greece, the two countries boarder each other, what's your point?

DejaVu
26-01-11, 19:12
The name is Macedonians not Bulgarians and Greece does not recognize Macedonian minority in Greece.


http://www.florina.org/
POLITICAL PARTY OF THE MACEDONIAN MINORITY IN GREECE
Member of the European Free Alliance - European Political Party (EFA-EPP)
Member of the Federal Union of European Nationalities (FUEN)

On September 8th, 1995, the members of the ethnic Macedonian political party in Greece, the RAINBOW PARTY, opened an office in the city of Florina.

On 19th January 1997 the Second Conference of the "RAINBOW" party was held in Florina. The Conference was attended by 76 delegates of all local units.

At that time it adopted a Political Manifesto and Organizational Principles, in addition to electing a Central Council comprised of 19 members.

Out of the 76 participant delegates, only Mr. Traianos Pasois and Mr. Hristos Pritskas, disagreed with the national-political character of the organization, the decisions made by the majority, and withdrew from the Conference.

The Central Council held its first session in Edessa (Voden) on the January 26th, 1997, and elected a five-member Political Secretariat, an Economic Commission, an Editors' Council, etc. It was decided to publish the follow-up materials (conclusions) of the Second Conference in the next edition of the Newsletter. The letter will be available in Macedonian and Greek.

Also the Central Council unanimously decided to exclude the above mentioned members on the grounds of their actions which were contrary to the Organization's Principles and the party's Political Manifesto.

In its Political Manifesto "RAINBOW" has aired its wish to cooperate with all democratic and anti-nationalist forces in the country in its struggle for peace and European integration.

To this purpose - attributing great significance to minority issues and the developing of political democracy in the country - "RAINBOW" will Launch initiatives to establish cooperation on basis of a joint political platform with all democratic forces.

The Central Council would like to express its gratitude, on behalf of all members and supporters of "RAINBOW" to all Macedonians who have aided our efforts materially and morally thus contributing to the achievement of our objective as an organization.

Elias2
26-01-11, 19:15
Macedonian as a national sence not an ethnic sense. You can thank Tito for the brainwashing.


Rainbow party:

Results, 1994–2009
(year links to election page) Year Type of Election Votes % Mandates 1994 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_1994_%28Greece%29) European Parliament 7,263 0.10 0 1996 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_legislative_election,_1996) Parliament 3,4851 0.05 - 1999 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_1999_%28Greece%29) European Parliament 4,951 0.08 0 2004 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2004_%28Greece%29) European Parliament 6,176 0.10 0 2009 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Parliament_election,_2009_%28Greece%29) European Parliament 4,530 0.09 0

The highest number of votes they got was in 1994 with 7,263. Impressive in fact that you claim there are 1 million macedonians in greece.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 19:25
Western Europeans created Greece and brainwashed some christian Turks that became modern Greeks.

Marianne
26-01-11, 19:35
@Elias2

How can you have a decent conversation with such a person?

Western Europeans created Greece and brainwashed some christian Turks that became modern Greeks.It is obvious there is no logic in his posts... We have posted and repeated so many researches that prove that Greeks are not mixed with Turks, that Greeks cluster with the rest of Europeans and have been the same people since ancient times but there is no pleasing him...

I think you are wasting your time replying. It is clear that he only joined this forum to troll about the Macedonian issue since 100% of his posts are about this topic and they provide no historical evidence to support the brainwashing that has happened to him. There are many people from Skopje like him searching the web for forums with such topics and then register just to troll and spread their propaganda about the issue...

DejaVu
26-01-11, 19:50
How can you have a decent conversation with such a person?
Elias2 - "You can thank Tito for the brainwashing." - (a 12 year old comment.)

Have showed you that Macedonians are Macedonians and you are continuing to spread fake identity (Bulgarians, Skopians, Slavs, Tito invention and more). "Marianne, Elias2 and iapetoc"

Elias2
26-01-11, 19:57
@ marianne

You have to talk to them in a decent manner even though they don't do the same, it only makes them look bad

@ dejavu

If you think Western powers created greece you need to do research on the greek enlightenment that came of the momentum of the french revolution.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment

DejaVu
26-01-11, 19:57
There are 131 countries which makes more than 2/3 of the United Nations that recognize Republic of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia) under its constitutional name as of 18 January, Bolivia being the last one.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_naming_dispute
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/6/66/Macedonia_name_dispute.png/800px-Macedonia_name_dispute.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/66/Macedonia_name_dispute.png)

List of countries/entities
(dark green) that use "Republic of Macedonia" in bilateral diplomatic relations.
(red) that use "the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" for all official purposes.
(green) whose official position on the issue is unknown.
(grey) that have no diplomatic relations with the country

iapetoc
26-01-11, 20:03
The highest number of votes they got was in 1994 with 7,263. Impressive in fact that you claim there are 1 million macedonians in greece.

the name of the party Rainbow Ουρανιο Τοξο
SlavoMakedonian minority party
1 man and 1 cleric
Votes 7 000 max

what 1 million you say?
Do in Skopje they tell you that you are 1 million In Aegean?
and you Believe them??

If you were 1 million you would revolt,
simply 7 000 votes

and you will tell me that Greeks are fasists Country, thank you

Another of your Arquements fall in Emptyness

iapetoc
26-01-11, 20:06
ok now lets ask that countries,

did they accept you as fathers of Alexander?
Did they accept also your claims?

I don't think so

they simply as Greece accept you as an Indipedent Country

I don't Believe they Accept also your claims

Elias2
26-01-11, 20:06
How can you have a decent conversation with such a person?
Elias2 - "You can thank Tito for the brainwashing." - (a 12 year old comment.)

12 year old comment or blunt truth? I think the latter.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 20:15
Must repost you are avoiding facts AGAIN. NOTICE: Its not Titos Almanac.
If you are going to continue with lies then it will be more posts and reposts.


The Existence of a Macedonian Minority in Greece!

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-front.png (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-front.png)
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/time_almanac_2010-287.png
1.8% ethnic Macedonians in Greece.
1.5% Albanians in Greece.
1.4% Turks in Greece.
0.9% Pomaks in Greece.
0.9% Roms (Gypsies) in Greece.
3.1% Other nationality in Greece.
90.4% Greeks in Greece.


Greece does not recognize Macedonian minority in Greece.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece)
And this are the statistics in Wikipedia.
93.8% Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greeks),
4.3% Albanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Albanians),
1.9% others

1.8% Macedonians in Greece of 11,239 millions total people = more then 200 000 Macedonians.
(The others are afraid of losing their job by self-determination)

The Macedonians of Greece speak out! (over 1 million Macedonians in Greece)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RnPp5740zXg

Elias2
26-01-11, 20:24
@ Dejavu

I'm not avoiding anything, and I comment on everything you say, but you don't comment on my rebuttals. So tell me these things;

why do you say there are 1 million macedonians in greece when you rainbow party only got 7,000 votes at most in 1994? Considering its a secret ballot process there is no need to fear backlash.

why did the VMRO (internal macedonian Revolutionary organization) fight for Sofia in the balkan wars? Why did Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader call himself Bulgarian?

If there is a different ethnic macedonian people apart from Bulgaria, why do Macdonians group so closely with bulgarians in DNA studies?

Why are you so adament about not comprimising with Greece over the name dispute?

If you don't answer these questions is just goes to show you are just another ultra-nationalist.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 20:42
The Bulgarian or was he Macedonian?

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Z8Ay6gxUZ3o/S9_EK8h09TI/AAAAAAAAFEY/0Kv5jzUyyFc/s1600/delchevgoodoz4.jpg

Elias2
26-01-11, 20:55
"The political and military leaders of the slavs of macedonia at teh turn of the century seem not to have heard Misirkov's call for a separate macedonian national identity; they continued to identify themselves in a national sense as bulgarians rather than macedonians. The political goals of the internal macedonian Revolutionary organization (VMRO) were the liberation of macedonia from the Ottoman Empire, and the establishment of an autonomous Macedonia, but VMRO's leadership was challenged by the formation of the supreme macedonian comittee in Sofia, whose ultimate foal was the annexation of macedonian by Bulgaria. Inspite of these political differences, both groups, including those who advocated an independent macedonian state and opposed the idea of a greater bulgaria, never seem to have doubted "the predominantly bulgarian character of the population of Macedonia". Even Gotse Delchev, the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader, whose nom de guerre was Ahil (achilles), refers to "the slavs of macadonia as 'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention". In his correspondence Gotse Delchev often states clearly and simply "we are bulgarians".

DejaVu
26-01-11, 21:09
Repost again you dont care about reading only care for questions.


It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.

The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreeceStealingMacedonianHistory.html). Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreekPropaganda.html).
Greek, Bulgarian, and Serbian Statistics of Macedonia's Population
The new independent Balkan states used their Churches and schools to propagate how the Macedonians do not exist, and how Macedonia was populated only by Greeks, Bulgarians, and Serbs. Ethnographers, historians, and writers begun writing books in favor of this or that propaganda. Many of them did not even visit Macedonia, while those who did already had a written scenario. Their presence there was only a simple formality.
Yet the term "Macedonian Slavs" is erroneous since the Macedonians, although conscious of their ancient Macedonian roots and Slav admixture, did not specifically call themselves "Macedonians Slavs", but Macedonians as the documents over the last 2,500 years show (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Documents.html).
according to the neutral authors also aligns with the numbers given by the Serb and Bulgarian authors. This is a proof that the Greeks before the partition of Macedonia, were indeed a small minority, only 10% from the total population. This fact certainly does not give them the copyright of the name Macedonia. Dr. Ostreich, Gersin, and Roussos, are only a few of the many neutral authors to prove the groundless speculations of the Balkan counties. They proved that Macedonia belongs to a separate nation, which proves that the Bulgarians and the Serbs have than simply substituted the numbers of the Macedonians for theirs. Another Austrian, Karl Hron explained why that is unjustified:
"According to my own studies on the Serb-Bulgarian conflict I came to the conclusion that the Macedonians looking at their history and language are a separate nation, which means they are not Serbs nor Bulgarians, but the descendants of those Slavs who populated the Balkan peninsula long before the Serb and Bulgarian invasions, and who later did not mix with any of those other two nations..." and:
"... the Macedonian language according to its own laws in the development of the voices, and its own grammatical rules, forms one separate language".
There were even Greek and Bulgarian writers to support what Karl Hron has written. One such example is the Bulgarian slavist and ethnographer P. Draganov, who in his studies of 1887-1894 and 1903, proved the existence of the Macedonians and the Macedonian language as a distinct language.
At the time of the emergence of the so-called Macedonian question, and the aspirations of the Macedonian neighbors for occupation of the country, the famous Macedonian Gjorgi Pulevski wrote in 1875:
"People who originate from one and the same race, speak the same language, live together in harmony, and have the same customs, songs and mentality, constitute a nation, and the place where they live is their homeland. In this way, the Macedonians are a nation and their homeland is Macedonia" and,
"I am not Bulgarian, nor Greek, nor Tzintzar, I am pure Macedonian as were Philip and Alexander the Macedonian and Aristotle Philosopher"
Pulevski was right back in 1875. He was proud Macedonian of his ancient heritage, conscious, and aware that the Macedonians were a distinct nation, a fact that the documents of the last 25 centuries clearly show (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Documents.html).

The usage of Macedonian and Macedonia separate from Greek or Bulgarian and Greece or Bulgaria is more than obvious. Also these sources are objective, old and clear, and do not offer any further interpretation; that is how they prove the existence of the Macedonians as a Nation with this name in this region, separate from the Greeks and Bulgarians in many ways. The fact that old documents call these people Macedonians shows that the Macedonians aren't an artificial creation, but a nation with a homeland and a name-Macedonia and Macedonians.
For shorter and better review of the use and meaning of the term "Bulgarian" starting from the 10th century and especially during the Turkish domination of the Balkans will consider several referential examples that testify against Bulgarian Nationalist doctrine.

According to the Bulgarian historiography all mentions,and very often wrong, with this name which is for her a fateful moment, that this is them - Bulgarians.

“Bulgarian elite had to invent, elaborate and underpin a myth of common ancestry and made this pedigree putative for the sense of ethnic identification.”
- (Smith, Anthony. "National Identity" published in London 1991, p. 22)

A.Todorov-Balan in his "One Macedonian theory”, book 9-10, Sofia, 1905, 818, states that in the XIX century the Balkan peoples,called the Russian czar -" Bulgarian Tsar "and the Serbian and Russian language - "Bulgarian".

The term "Bulgarian” during the Ottoman rule denoted – a peasant farmer.

While the "Grecian" denoted a person of higher class or merchant.

"During the Ottoman period, therefore, terms like 'Greek' or 'Bulgarian' were not used to designate different ethnic or national groups, but rather broad socio-cultural categories" (Danforth 1995:59)
- (Mirca Madianou , “Mediating the Nation“, p. 30, is Lecturer and Director of Studies in Social and Political Sciences, Lucy Cavendish College, University of Cambridge)

"The term "Bulgarian," which had earlier been used to refer to all the Slavs of the Ottoman Empire (Friedman 1975:84), or as a virtual synonym for "peasant" without any political significance at all came to mean "Bulgarian" in a national sense. "(Wilkinson 1951:149),
- (Loring M. Danforth „The Macedonian Conflict: Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World Princeton University Press, 1997, p. 59)

“ For example, in Macedonia, Serbia and Bulgaria, class and ethnicity overlapped, resulting in the utilization of the terms “Serb” and “Bulgar” to denote the peasantry per se. Since most peasants were Slavs and most Slavs were peasants, class distinctions often became ethnic distinctions ( Slijepcevic 1958, 82-96; Kofos 1964; Vermulen 1984; Shashko 1973).
When the Slavs moved into the urban world or became members of the middle classes, they generally shifted their identity to Greek. In Belgrade, for example, Serbian townsmen dressed in the Greek style, the Belgrade newspapers included the rubric Greciia (Greece), and the local Christian “higher strata” were Grecophone until 1840 – according to Stoianovich 1994, 294; and Karanovich 1995, 31.
In Southern Albania and Greece during the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries, thousands of Orthodox Albanians and Vlachs became completely Hellenized ( Skendi 1980, 187-204)”.
- (Victor Roudometof “Nationalism,Orthodoxy, and Globalization”p. 48)


We are witnesses of the phenomenon of “ethnicization” of the religious, social or occupational groups in Balkans, very often these groups were denoted by the names of ethnic communities and they used these names to denote themselves as well.

The term "Grecian" could mean "an Orthodox Christian," but also "reseller" or generally "well situated" citizen. in the same way, "Turk" most marked "Muslim" and "Bulgarian" was a highlight, "villager", with or without an offensive meaning. "Vlach" and marked "shepherd" or "nomads" in general. "Albanian" (arnautin) could be applied to a man from each ethnic group who performed certain military tasks
The term “Grecian” could mean “Orthodox Christian” but also a “city dweller” or gennerally “well to do citizen”. In the same way,”Turk” often meant “Muslim”, with “Bulgarian” to denote a “villager”, with ot without pejorative connotation. “Vlach” could mean “shepherd” or “nomad” in general.”Albanian” (arnautin) could apply to a person of any ethnic origin performing specific military tasks
- (Dēmētrēs Tziovas , „Greece and the Balkans“ p. 43)


According the references of Prof. Keith Brown, “Turk” implied official persona – functionary, “Grecian” meant – merchant, “Bulgarian” – villager, farmer and “Vlach” – shepherd, rancher.
“When the Macedonian peasants use the term Bulgar, they mean by it: 1) people of a simple and hard-working life, 2) the bulk of simple labourers who speak Slavic, in contrast to the non-Slavs, the Greeks and the Turks, who are above this majority and consider them inferior. The first meaning is the main one: the word “Bulgar” denotes in the first case a simple mode of life, work and thought.”
- (Keith Brown, „The Past in Question, modern Macedonia and the Uncertainties of Nation“, p. 59)

Habsburg authorities in Transylvania, tended to call all members of Orthodox merchant companies “Greeks”, irrespective thet they included not only Slavs, Romanians, and Christian Albanians, but also a sprinkle of Armenians and Jews. Western travelers in Macedonia, quickly realized that the term “Bulgarian” was locally used to describe poor Slav peasants.
- (Katerina Zacharia и Dimitris Livianos „ Hellenisms: culture, identity, and ethnicity from antiquity to modernity“, p. 249)

“In Macedonia, as late as the early twentieth century, both “Greeks” and “Bulgarian: denoted professions, the later often being applied to poor, Slavic-speaking, Orthodoc Christian peasants, shepherds, or laborers of lower social status to whom were ascribed a “peasant” culture.”
- ( Peter Mackridge, „Language and National Identity in Greece, 1766 – 1976“)

Trajan Stojanović in his book "Balkan Worlds: The First and Last Europe", p.143 again underlines that the term "Bulgarians" were called the farmers and with "Vlachs" the shepherds.

The Bulgarian member of the Bulgarian Academy of Sciences Vasil Drumev wrote: "And we've began to learn Greek, to speak in Greek, to call ourselves Greeks. And there is still among us respected Bulgarians, who are grecoficating, who speak .. in Greek, who hate the Bulgarians.”

K. Irachek in - "History of Bulgarians”, Sofia, 1929, 385-386, says that the citizens for the simple, uneducated provincials (peasants) always used the name - "Bulgarians" by adding the obligatory – thick headed, *****, stumps and other abusive words.

The Traveler Sir John Mandeville, in1357 travelling throught Balkans wrote that Serbia is land of Bougiers, while Blegrade in that time was known by the name “Alba Graeca” and “Alba Bulgarica”.

Simeon Lehaci in his journey memories wrote that all the people in Bosnia speaks in "Bulgarian", and they were "Greeks" in religion.


“All peasants were Macedonians; shepherds were Vlachs; merchants and bureaucrats were Greeks; and the high administrators were Muslims.”- (“Minorities and mother country imagery” By Gerald L. Gold, Memorial University of Newfoundland. Institute of Social and Economic Research, p. 60.)

Prof. Stilpon Kyriakidis in the “Northern ethnological frontiers of Hellenism ", on p.39:
"While at the time of Simeon did not cease to differ Dragovites from Strumianites and generally Sclavinians from Bulgarians, since Samuel the name of Sclavinias completely disappeared, and all Macedonian Slavs are called Bulgarians by the Byzantines and the country that Samuel ruled, that is western and northern Macedonia is called Bulgaria. In this way, we ourselves gave the name Bulgarian to everyone that speaks Slavic ".

The propaganda consisted of introducing among the common Slavic people the world “Bolgar”, as a synonym for “Slavonic Christian”; As this propaganda was so strong, really the word “Bolgar” became a synonym for “Christian that speak Slavonic” in the 19 Cent., but not and nationality.
When bulgarian peasant used to say "we are Bulgars", he meant "we are Christians", i.e. Orthodox (Periodichesko spisanie (Sofia), LXV (1904), p.818)

Another indisputable proof that the “Bulgarian” at that time meant Slav, and then "Bulgarians" thought of themselves as pure Slavs, the same people with the Serbs and the Macedonians and Illyrians (Croats, Slovenes and Montenegrins) presents "The History of Bulgarian people " by Fr. Spiridon of Gabrovo, which in its short history says:

"Bolgarians came into rule in Thrace, Macedonia, Dalmatia, White Sea and the Rome... Illyrians (Serbs and Croats, my note) are called Bolgarians... and from Bolgarians originated the Serbs, and when Alexander took the whole Ilyrian army to conquer of the world ... since then Bolgarians began to call themselves Macedonians and Slavs "
- (Spyridon Yeroschimonach, History in short of Bolgarian Slav nation 1792, tran. B. Hristova, prof. Raikov B., BAK at NB “Ss.Cyril and Methodius ", and" GAL-ICO, Sofia, 1992)

Jordan Hadzhikonstantinov - Dzinot, tells that for him the term Bulgarians means Slavs, so in his "Legend of Thessaloniki," published in 1859 says St. Cyril and Methodius, the apostles of all Bulgarians (Slavs), and in Bulgarians includes the Moravians from Great Moravia and Pannonia (Glasnik drustva srpske slovenosti, VIII, p. 146-147)

Krste Petkov Misirkov explains the concept “Bulgarian”: "The Greeks also did not differ the Slavic nations and all Slavs ... called with the despised name "Bulgarians"
... The Greeks used the name Bulgarian to incarnate in him their contempt for everything Slavic. .. With the name Bulgarians, we Macedonians were christen by the Greeks,as well. But this re-christening was not the only one... “ (Krste Petkov Misirkov "On Macedonian Matters" Preface, Sofia, Printing House of the Liberal Club, 1903).

For Mr. Gennady, Metropolitan of Veles in 19th century ( born in the village Podkozhene, Podgradec) the concept “Bulgarian” is the same with the term Slavs, and he wrote that the Czechs and Slovakians are Bulgarians: “ of Bohemia and Moravia they are all Slavs, pure Bulgarians, our brothers” (Source: Simeon Radev “ Early memories”, titled “Meeting of four Bulgarian bishops” new, revised and expanded edition, edited by Trajan Radev, publishing house “Strelec”, Sofia, 1994)

Macedonian teacher Nikola Pop-Philipov, says that "Bulgarian" language is a general Balkan language (newspaper "Macedonia" Constantinople, April 6, 1868), referring to the Slavic language.

Grigor Prlicev writes in his autobiography: “... the Bulgarian alphabet only to three was known and was called Serbian..” (Grigor Prlicev, Autobigraphy). For him and the Serbians were Bulgarians i.e. Slavs; at that time, only Serbs had reformed and codified Slavic alphabet, and because of it Prlicev says that the Bulgarian (Slavonic) alphabet was called Serbian.

The famous Macedonian textbook writer Dimitar Macedonian sees its people as ancient Macedonians, and in one of his article writes that the ancient Macedonians are not swallowed by the earth, but are pure Slavs: "... Macedonians are not Vlachs or some other nation, but pure Bulgarians (thinking of Slavs) ... therefore you’ll learn that the Macedonians are not lost from the face of the earth, as some allow to say, because, as far as we know, they did not done anything so bad, what should open the earth to swallow them. "(see Makedonia of 16/02/1871).

In its “Brief holy history for the schools in Macedonia (in Macedonian dialect) printed in “ The printing of Macedonia”, Constantinople in 1867, writes:
Q.[Question] Who are those Bulgarians(Slavs), who were baptized in the early first century after Christ’s birth?
A.[Answer] They are Bulgarians who live in Macedonia
Q. From whom are they baptized?
A. The Apostle Paul, who first preached at Philippi and Thessaloniki

It becomes obvious that under the umbrella of the term "Bulgarians" also enter the ancient Macedonians, who were first baptized by the Apostle Paul, whole 5 centuries before the ethnic name "Bulgarians" to appear on the Balkans at all and generally European geographic regions.

Next reference is the book of Mark Mazower “Salonica City of Ghosts” p.249, who writes about the visit of Sir Henry Layards of Thessaloniki, and here’s what he means under these terms:
To be a “Greek” meant to be a “Orthodox Christian” while under the term “Bulgarian” was held to be one of reproach and contempt.

Not last confirmation, but sufficient for completion of this reference overview of the meaning of these terms, according to the book of Nace Dimov “Historical line of Macedonia and Macedonian Slavs” Chapter first p.13-15, from 1913:

”Therefore, in Macedonia there was such a position that the same Macedonian nation was called Grecian, Serbian and Bulgarian, just because one recognizes the Greek patriarch and pray in Greek churches, and another goes into a Slavic church. In each the same towns and villages the priests that receive a salary of Bulgarian Exarchate call themselves Bulgarians, those receiving the salary from the Serbian Diocese called themselves Serb and Macedonian Slav population that goes into one or another school or church calling itself Grecian, Serb or Bulgarian

From all that I expressed I can say that the Macedonians have a hundred percent right to autonomy and not be subjected to fragmentation among Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians. Regardless of that the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian government, for extending their boundaries on Macedonian territory, without saving money and exterminating the Macedonians who do not want to call themselves Greek, Serb and Bulgarian and those who do not know how to speak Serbian and Greek.”

DejaVu
26-01-11, 21:13
Vlachs = Roumans = Modern Greeks

"It is an unpleasant duty to have to tell one's friends home truths, but the Greek claim to Macedonia, at least as regards the greater part of the interior of the country, is a dream. In some of the towns there is a fair Greek population, but even in that case, as in Monastir, for example, the STATISTICS REST ON AN ARTIFICIAL BASIS. The truth is that a LARGE NUMBER of those described as Greeks are REALLY ROUMANS. Till within recent years Hellenism found a fertile field for propaganda among the representatives of the gifted Romance-speaking race of the Pindus region. Today JANINA HAS QUITE FORGOTTEN ITS ROUMAN ORIGIN, and has become a center of Hellenism. Athens, the nearest civilized center, offered natural attractions to the quick-witted mercantile element in the towns. But, for good is expended by Greek committees in the endeavor to gain recruits for Greek nationality. Parents are actually paid to send their children to the Greek schools." - Sir Arthur Evans, 1903.

Elias2
26-01-11, 21:14
Your biggest fault is that you are calling all your neighbours fake while "macedonians" (bulgarians) are the only true people in the balkans. This is why FYROM will change its name, because of people like you and your mentality. ;)

iapetoc
26-01-11, 21:17
Dejavu you lost all your arquements

1 Ancient Makedonians were Greeks
2 Medieval Makedonians were Greeks

3 There is no slavo-Makedonian Minority in Greece (7000 votes to 2 000 000 Greek Makedonian)

4 Your alphabet and your language is cyrillic and Bulgarian Dialect

5 all countries among them Greece accept your indepedence but not your claims

6 we were we are and will be here to say who the True Makedonian is

7 by claiming name and land you win only enemies in area, its pitty, cause even Bulgarians dont want you any more


you even make enemies your own people the Bulgarians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIkXbuY6Hag

all you create is hate, and you posses land that belongs to Albania

keep that way, a lie can't help you make friends

watch that carefully
its your President of Democracy Gligorov admiting that you are slavs, SlavoMakedonians

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TnUxYp6eDek


Even Gotse Deltchev,the famous Macedonian revolutionary leader,whose nome de guerre was Ahil (Achilles) "refers to the Slavs of Macedonia as 'Bulgarians' in an offhanded manner without seeming to indicate that such a designation was a point of contention" (Perry 1988:23).In his correspondence Gotse Deltchev often states simple and clearly,"We are Bulgarians" (Mac Dermott 1978:192,273).

go ahead DejaVu make your pray
Svetitelot Tito
Hvala Tito za stoca ..... i imeto ........

Dejavu right now i am going to drink a suvo vino od tikves
Grenaz Bel and shine my kalashnikov

if you want tell me to send a good Naousa or a Georgiadi or an Agioritiko (mount Athos) bottle of wine
best quality all
just ask me i will
besides as a trully balkan I make my own raki, want some of that?

DejaVu
26-01-11, 21:26
Greeks are christian Turks.

1. Macedonians were always Macedonians.
2. Medieval Macedonians were Macedonians.
3. There is no slavo-macedonian minority only ethnic Macedonians.
4. The language is Macedonian and made by Macedonians.
5. Macedonians dont care what other think they know what they are and that is Macedonians are Macedonians and Macedonia is Macedonia.
6. Greeks are christian Turks.
7. Greek language is mixed turkish language.

You lost all claims I posted the evidence you failed like the other fake Greeks.
Be proud of what you are christian Turk.


It is less known that the Ottomans were dividing the Population by their Religious affiliation, not Ethncity. So the Greeks are the Patriarchist affiliated Population, Bulgarians are the Exarchat affiliated Population, Jews are the Hebrew affiliated Population etc.
The League of the Nations had not visited Aegean Macedonia and did not participate at all in conducting these statistics. Greece here refers to the Macedonians as "bulgarisants", which means "those who pretend to be Bulgarians" and obviously non-Bulgarians. However, Greece uses many other names in falsifying the identity of the Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreeceStealingMacedonianHistory.html). Slavophones, Slav Macedonians, Makedoslavs, Slav Greeks, and Bulgarisants, are only some of the names that prove Greece's unpreparess in this mean falsification of the Macedonian people and language (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/GreekPropaganda.html).

Elias2
26-01-11, 21:56
Considering the invading turks were muslims, and in islam it calls for the death penalty if you leave their "religion", I don't think your claims make sence ;)

iapetoc
26-01-11, 22:18
Bulgars were Huns (Balkars)
they dissapear but they left the idea of an autonomus state
war with byzantine never stoped that movement of indipedence

Thracian people of the north and west accept a small serbianism, and create a new accent to slavonization more,
but words like bol (bull) is ancient Tyrrrshenian
ancient Greeks use the word tauros in south and Volinthros (Bολινθρος) in areas were Tyrrshenian were spoken
in koine became βους -vous bous and vous is the same with bo and bol
find out how may other words you have
in a disgussion with a Thracologist in bulgaria we found 1300 words in Greek and 2200 in bulgarian language that are Tyrsshenian origin, even serbian and albanian have Tyrrshenian enough, also Daco-Romanian.
find them and don't listen to any stupid propaganda,
modern Bulgarians soon wiil claim that they are slavonized Thracians.
and the same for you the Makedonia dream is at its end
soon both countries they will reclaim Thracian ancestors.

find Hesychius of Alexandria Lexicon,
it has ancient Makedonian words,
there you will learn the Language of Alexander.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 22:21
As a start let us look at the name of Macedonia.

Modern Greece constantly turns to ancient Greek mythology to justify their theory. According to one source, the land was named Macedonia after Macedon, the son of Zeus and Thia; a second version claims that the name was derived from Macedon, one of the ten sons of the god Aeolus; a third version says that Macedon was the son of someone called Likaon, and according to a fourth one, Macedon was the son of the Egyptian god Osiris. Which of these four versions can we trust? Ulrich Wilken, a German historian, states that the Greek adherence to old myths is an attempt to justify their present views, i.e. lacking proofs of the Greek thesis, they resort to mythology, legends and tradition.

Furthermore, since the Greek people do not really believe in the mythical origin of the name of Macedonia, a new explanation is being forced; namely that the root of the name, mak- is of Doric origin and means 'long' or 'tall' and its derivatives, Makednos or Makedanos, mean 'tall people'. These interpretation have been attributed to Herodotus, the Father of History, as Greek scholars call him. The aim here is to link the Macedonian with the Dorian people, the latter being claimed to be one of the Macedonian tribes. However, when it comes to proving the Doric origin of the Macedonians, or vice versa, Herodotus has no arguments to offer and therefore turns to traditions. This view is also supported by Prof D. Pantermalis, an archeologist, who wrote the following in the Greek newspaper Neos kosmos of 14th November 1988, published in Melbourne, Australia: "We have mentioned earlier a tradition which claims the Dorians to have been descended from the Makedons or Makednos. Herodotus must have come by this information either through evidence he himself had collected in some of the Doric towns or through the story of an ancient epic by Aegimius..."

Furthermore, Prof. D. Pantermalis also gave an interview published in Neos kosmos of 28th February 1991. Asked why foreign scholars were reserved over the question, the archeologist answered: "There are certain matters which require further clarification, and unfortunately certain interpretations in the past well as today have been wrongly based on such unclarified matters. Thus, for example, ancient texts often speak about the Macedonians and the Greeks, as two separate nations and we ought to differentiate between them. I would also add a more recent example: we speak of the Greeks and the Cypriots." Needless to say, this is only a superficial example, since, when we speak a Macedonian we do not mean a Greek from Macedonia, but one descended from Macedonia by origin and by nationality.

The Greek historian, D. Kanatsulis, disagrees with the interpretations given by Prof. Pantermalis. In his History of Macedonia until Constantine the Great published in Salonica in 1964, on page 67 D. Kanatsulis writes that the Dorian and the Macedonian were two different peoples, although both appear on territory of Macedonia at almost the same time. On page 12 of this publication we read: "On the descent of the Illyrians and some other peoples in the 12th and 11th centuries BC, the Dorians were forced to move further south and majority of them settled on the Pelloponnesos whereas the Macedonians stayed in Western Macedonia."
D. Kanatsulis emphasizes that the Macedonians had a strong feeling of constituting a separate ethnic group not only during the time of the independent Macedonian state, but also during the Roman era. "The Macedonians," he says, were primarily citizens of the state and only after that members of the municipality where they were born or where they lived. Thus, in the official documents in which all names were entered, the personal name was followed by the nationality - Macedonian, and then came the birthplace or the place of residence, for example: a Macedonian from Aegea, a Macedonian from Edessa, etc." (page 82).

Similarly ancient Macedonian historians and writers, though writing in the common language (a blend of ancient Greek and the local Macedonian when signing their names always added that they were Macedonian language); as, for example: Chrisogonis from Edessa, a Macedonian; Adaios the Macedonian; Antipatris the Macedonian. (Prof Photis Petsas: A Journey in Northern Greece, Elinikos voras, February 1976). Not one of them wrote that he was a Hellene.
Now, back to the name of Macedonia. Looking at Ilios, a Greek encyclopedia periodical, on page 801 we find the chapter entitled 'The History of Macedonia'. Its third Paragraph begins with the words: "The Macedonians or Macedons inhabited this territory and called it Macedonia...," which confirms that before the arrival of the Macedonians the territory had had other names (Imatia, Aeordea, Almopia and perhaps others) and that the Macedonian newcomers named it Macedonia. Another archeologist, Prof Photis Petsas, gives even a more detailed account: "Macedonia was so named after the Macedonian People in the year 700 BC, who used to inhabit the territory to the west of the Vermion Mountains. What interests us today;" says Prof Petsas, "is that the Macedonians gave their own name to the land, calling it Macedonia, and expanded it in the south to Mount Olympus, in the west to the Pindus Mountain, in the east to the river Nestos (the Mesta) and to the Erigon in the north." (Prof Photis Petsas: Macedonia and the Macedonians..., Elinikos voras, 12th February 1978).

The ancient Greek man of letters, Isocrates, claims that there were no grounds for the identification of Ancient Macedonia with Ancient Greece, nor the Ancient Macedonians with the Ancient Greeks. In his book Filip (pp l07-108), Isocrates places Macedonia outside the boundaries of Greece and considers the Macedonians non-Greek tribesmen. Both ancient and contemporary geographers and historians, such as Eforos, Pseudoskilaks, Dionisios Kalifondas, Dikearhos, Athineos and others, state that the northern boundaries of Greece begin at the Amvrakis Bay in the west and go to the Peneos River in the east (Makedonia, an anthology, Athens, 1982, p.50). In this connection, the modern Greek scholar J. Kaleris writes: "In the middle of the 5th century BC, the name Macedonia was given to the land spreading from Lake Lychnida in the west, the Strymon River in the east and to the Erigon and Vardar Rivers in the north (The Language of the Macedonians, an anthology, Athens, 1992). According to historians and geographers mentioned above, the territories north of a line Amvrakis Bay to the River Peneos were inhabited by the Macedonian people (same Anthology, p. 122). The ancient geographer, Ptolemy, gives an even more precise description of the boundaries of Macedonia, saying that in the north they reached the Sar (Skardos) Mountains, in the north-east the Pirin (Orbilos) Mountains and in the south the Peneos River.
If these are the recognized boundaries of Macedonia, then how could that encompassed by the Mountains of Kajmakcalan, Kozuf, Belasica and Sar be denied the name Macedonia, even though, under the Treaty of Bucharest, a part of Macedonia was allotted to Greece? Referring to this problem, the Honorary President of the Communist Party of Greece, Harilaos Florianis, says in an interview: "Are we trying to say that 39% of the geographical territory of Macedonia is 'Skopje'? Isn't that, in fact, a section of the territory of Macedonia?" (Rizospastis, 2nd September, 1992).

Certain Greek scholars lacking a critical eye and disregarding historical arguments, consider the ancient Macedonians as Greeks and their language a Greek dialect. However, anyone looking at the facts with an open mind will realize that this is far from being true. Authentic evidence shows that the ancient Greeks regarded the Macedonian people as barbarians and Macedonia a barbaric land. This is also what the two coryphaei of Greek history, Thucydides and Demosthenes thought of ancient Macedonians. As a matter of fact, the ancient Greeks considered all non-Greek people barbarian and their land barbaric. Thus in his third Philippic, Demosthenes states: "Ay, and you know this also, that the wrongs which the Greeks suffered from the Lacedaemonians or from us, they suffered at all events at the hands of true-born sons of Greece, and they might have been regarded as the acts of a legitimate son, born to great possessions, who should be guilty of some fault or error in the management of his estate: so far he would deserve blame and reproach, yet it could not be said that it was not one of the blood, not the lawful heir who was acting thus. But if some slave or superstitious bastard had wasted and squandered what he had no right to, heavens! How much more monstrous and exasperating all would have called it! Yet they have no such qualms about Philip and his present conduct, though he is not only no Greek, nor related to the Greeks, but not even a barbarian from any place that can be named with honor, but a pestilent knave from Macedonia, whence it was never yet possible to buy a decent slave ..." (Demosthene Crationes, IX, p.26, and Istorija diplomatije, vol.1, p.49).
Further evidence that the Macedonians were not Hellenes can be of the Manifesto of Polyperchon, regent to the Macedonian throne and envoy to the Greek city-states in the year 319 BC, where we read: "Our ancestors [meaning the Macedonians - author's note) were always kind to the Hellenes and intend to continue their good ways and give proof of our goodwill towards the Greek people." (Istorija diplomatije, p. 53, reference taken from Diodorus Siculus Bibliotheka historika, XVIII, p. 55).

The modern Greek scholar, Karagatsis, makes his contribution to the clarification of the question whether the ancient Macedonians were Greek or not. The master work of this respected author, History of the Greek People, 1952, raised a great commotion in the camp of the nationalistically oriented intellectuals of Greece. Karagatsis, however, disregarded the burden of tradition and mythology and claimed that reality was different (p. 314). "It is the King of the Macedonians," he says, "who is the hegemon of the Greeks. The Congress is summoned by the hegemon, but is never chaired by him, because the hegemon is not Greek." (p. 340).
Many circles in Greece turned against Karagatsis. Thus Stefanos Hrisos, a critic, states the following in his article in the Salonica newspaper Makedonia: "I believe that it is a moral obligation of every Greek, particularly those in Northern Greece, to raise his voice and demand that this book by Karagatsis should not leave the boundaries of Greece or be translated into other languages, and, if possible, be withdrawn from the shops. We might have expected such bad language from our neighbors but never from a Greek writer..."
Last year, during the heavy Greek-wide campaign against the international recognition of the Republic of Macedonia, a collection entitled The Language of the Macedonians was published, which comprised contributions by distinguished university professors, the purpose of which was to boost the Greek thesis that the ancient Macedonians were Greek people and spoke the Greek language.

However, even in such a publication one finds concessions that the Macedonians in fact spoke a language different from the Greek.
Ana Panaiotou, for example, in the article 'The Language of Captions in Macedonia', says that "the Macedonians communicated among themselves in the Koine (common) language; the use of the Macedonian dialect was shrinking and became limited to conversations within a family or within small tribal circles. The last extant records on the Macedonian dialect," Panaiotou continues, "date from the first century BC" This author also informs us that the oldest facts on the Macedonian language date from the fifth century BC With the arrival of Alexander the Great that language stopped being the means of communication. "People used this language," Panaiotou says, "at moments of anger or great excitement and when only Macedonians were present" (p. 187). To support her statement, Ana Panaiotou turns to Plutarch, who claims that while killing Cleitus, at a moment of great distress, Alexander the Great "cried out in the Macedonian language" (Plutarch, Vii parallili, chapter 'Alexander the Great' - eighth installment in the periodical Ilios, 20th March 1954).
Ana Panaiotou also draws attention to the example of Eumenes, an officer in Alexander's army. He himself was not Macedonian, but once, after an illness, when walking among his Macedonian soldiers, he greeted them in the Macedonian language. She also mentions that Queen Cleopatra had lessons in Macedonian. In the same collected edition, Prof. J. Kaleris says that "the Macedonian language was often used with the purpose of winning the trust of the Macedonian people." In the periodical Mesiniaka, J. Kordatos, a historian and sociologist, undeniably declares that the ancient Macedonians spoke a language different from Greek.

Blinded by their fanaticism, the Greek nationalists categorically deny the Macedonians of today the right to bear that name; instead, they suggest names like Dardanians, Sclavins and the like. when the ancient Macedonian people arrived on the Balkan Peninsula, according to accepted sources, they retained their old name. This, however, was not the case with the modern Macedonians; when they settled in Macedonia in the 5th and 6th centuries AD, they still bore their tribal names - Sagudats, Rinhins, Smolyans, Brsyaks, etc. Gradually and spontaneously, these tribes took on the name of the region they had inhabited or, perhaps, of the people living there, who began to become assimilated with the newcomer Slavs, Pechenese, Kumans and others. Many Byzantine chronicle writers, such as Georgios Monahos, Leon the Dean, Ivan the Geometrician, Ana Comnena and Georgios Kedrinos mention the Macedo-nian Slavs. Even Emperor Constantine himself writes about the Macedonian people (Makedones); Leon the Dean refers to them as the ton Makedonon; Nikiforos Vrionos speaks of one Vasilios Kurtina as the anir Makedon; Ana Comnena says that someone called Tornik is a Makedon, etc. (Stjepan Antoljak, Samoilovata drzava, Skopje, 1969, pp 78-80).

Despite the frequent conquests first by Byzantium, then by the Bulgar and the Serb Kingdoms and finally by the Ottoman Empire, the name Macedonian persisted in use. Thus the European traveler Bertrand de la Brokier wrote in 1432 that the Macedonian people were the predominant population of Macedonia, differentiating them from the Greeks, the Bulgars and the Serbs (Jordan Ivanov; Bqlgarite v Makedonia, Sofia 1917, pp. 109-110). Similarly, the Venetian marine officer, Angiolello, who traveled via Macedonia on his way to Constantinople, regarded the Macedonians as different from the Greek people. In his diary Angiolello wrote: "On 14th August, the Great Master dropped anchor off the coast of Mount Athos, a mountain on which there are many monasteries and Christian monks, some of them Greek, others Macedonian or Vlach." He, then, goes on to say: "Both Greek and Macedonian people live there..." (K Merdzhios, Mnimia makedonikis istorias). Furthermore, the Regulations and the Constitution of the Razlog and the Kresna Uprisings in 1876 and 1878, as well as the documents of the interim government of Macedonia of 1880, clearly define the nationality of the Macedonian people. Terms like Macedonian Uprising, Macedonian army, Macedonian people leave no doubt as to the national denomination of the Macedonian people.

Greece manifested territorial aspirations towards Macedonia soon after it became an independent state. Various societies, such as the Association for the Promotion of Greek Literacy and, later, the armed gangs operating in Macedonia and fighting the so-called Macedonian war, had a sole purpose of converting the Macedonian population into Greek and if reeducation did not produce the expected results, they resorted to using arms. In this connection, Joannis Kordatos has written the following: "Bulgaria and Greece, as well as Serbia, sent soldiers to Macedonia in order to change the national affinity of the local population..."
"A large percentage of the farmers in Macedonia," Kordatos continues, "spoke a Slavonic dialect, using a lot of Greek and Turkish words; however, the essence of the dialect was Slavonic. The Slavo-Macedonian dialect was the dominant language in many areas in Macedonia. In a survey which Blunt, the British consul in Salonica, conducted in 1888 and printed in the following year in the English Blue Book, we find that the Greeks constituted the majority in the coastal belt, in Ber, Lagadin, Ser and Zihnen. But the inland areas of Macedonia were inhabited by Slavophones..."
"The wide masses of Macedonia," says Kordatos, "were oppressed not only by the pashas, beys and agas, but also by the local rich people and the Greek high church officials. Therefore, the majority of the Slavophone Macedonians decided to rise against the Turkish tyranny and the injustice of the Metropolitans, and in an autonomous and independent Macedonia to build political and national equality..." (loannis Kordatos, Istoria tis neas Ellados, vol.5, Athens 1955, pp. 41A2).

DejaVu
26-01-11, 22:30
In the period between the two Wars the only hope the Macedonian people in Greece had for the preservation of their national identity and for the realization of their basic national rights as a minority came from the Greek Communist Party. Between 1924 and 1935, the latter supported the idea of self-determination of the Macedonian people in Greece as well as for the independence and unity of Macedonia and Thrace, which later changed into a demand for "national equality for the minorities within the Greek state".

Speaking in favor of the demands of the Macedonian people in Greece, the leader of the parliamentary group of the Communist Party, Stelios Sklavenas, declared at the Parliamentary sitting of 25th April 1936: "Another problem which the Government keeps ignoring in its declarations is the question of giving the minorities in Greece rights equal to those of the native Greek population. This refers in the first place to the Macedonian people. Anyone who has traveled through Macedonia must have felt the specific pressure exerted on the Macedonians. They have been strictly forbidden to have their own schools, speak their own language or practice their own customs. As a result, the people are getting organized and ready to fight for their rights, in which we can't but support them.

The winning countries in the Great War and the League of Nations sanctioned the right for the self-determination of oppressed nations. And we also grant this right to the Macedonian people...
General Metaxas established his dictatorship on 4th August 1936. One of the first things he did was to retaliate against deputy Stelios Sklavenas for his speech in Parliament in support of the Macedonian cause, by sending him to the dungeons of Manyadakis, chief of the Security police, where he was virtually subjected to inquisition.

As a conclusion to what has so far been said about the Greek denial of the admission of the Republic of Macedonia into the international institutions, the Greek claim to the exclusive right to the name of Macedonia and their non-recognition of the Macedonian minority in Greece, we would like to draw the attention of the reader to the visionary ideas and words of the former leader of the Left Liberals in Greece, Ioannis Sofianopoulos. As early as 1927, when the Greek Parliament debated minority rights in the country; this man of virtue anticipated future events.

"By what means can we tame the spirits and eradicate the hatred?" he wonders and then adds: "There are three essential elements. a real protection of the minorities, which would forbid any forced emigration, education of the new generation in schools, and good traffic connections with all Balkan countries... Everybody should understand," Sofianopoulos concludes, "that we cannot endlessly change the family name suffixes -opoulos into -opovich, then into -opov, or in the reverse direction, and that the mind should be free and the will of the individual fully respected." (Ioannis Sofianopoulos, Pos ida tin Valkaniki, Athens 1927, p.204). Translated by Mirka Mishich

DejaVu
26-01-11, 22:34
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/MacedonianMinorities/images/eurominority.jpg

DejaVu
26-01-11, 22:37
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berziti
The Berziti (Bulgarian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgarian_language), Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_language), Serbian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbian_language): Берзити) were a South Slavic tribe that settled in Byzantine (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Byzantine) Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(region)) in the 6th century AD with the Slavic invasion of the Balkans. Their name has been modernized as Brsjaci which also is the region of Macedonia encompassing Bitola (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bitola), Ohrid (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ohrid), Prespa (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Prespa) and Veles (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Veles_(city)) which is thought to have been their Sclaviniae (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sclaviniae).
One part of the tribe settled in Brest, Belarus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Brest,_Belarus). The Berziti settled in the vicinity of Lychnidos (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lychnidos) (Ohrid (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ohrid)).
The tribe subsequently disappeared after Byzantine, Serbian and Bulgar conquest of the region. The tribe was absorbed by the Serb and Bulgarian ethnos.
In the 1935 book by Kirov-Majski, a self-proclaimed Brsjak, two sub-groups (ethnographic) of the Bulgarians are attested, the Brsjaks and Mijaks (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mijaks), according to him in 1903, the revolutionaries that rebelled in the Krushevo Uprising calls themselves "Brsjaks". Self-proclaimed Brsjaks in Macedonia have since identified with the Macedonian people (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_people).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mijaks
The Mijaks (Macedonian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonian_language): Мијаци, Mijaci) are a sub-group of ethnic Macedonians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ethnic_Macedonians) who primarily live in the Mijačija (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Mija%C4%8Dija&action=edit&redlink=1) area, comprising of the Reka (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Reka) and Mala Reka (http://www.eupedia.com/w/index.php?title=Mala_Reka&action=edit&redlink=1) regions, along the Radika (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Radika) river,in the west of Macedonia. They are most notable for their unique style of building and the extent to which old traditions and customs are kept alive by Mijaks.With the migration from village to city many villages now are uninhabited.


Macedonian Anthem

Today Over Macedonia
Today over Macedonia, is being born
the new sun of liberty.
The Macedonians fight,
for their own rights!
The Macedonians fight
for their own rights!
Now once again the flag flies
(that) of the Krushevo Republic
Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli
Dame Gruev, Sandanski!
Goce Delchev, Pitu Guli
Dame Gruev, Sandanski!
The Macedonian forests sing
new songs and news
Macedonia is liberated
It lives in liberty!
Macedonia is liberated
It lives in liberty!

http://www.eurominority.eu/version/eng/minority-detail.asp?id_minorities=153
Peoples in search of freedom - www.eurominority.eu (http://www.eurominority.eu)
The website of Stateless Nations and minority peoples in Europe
(national, cultural and linguistic minorities, native peoples, ethnic groups, areas with strong identity and autonomist, independantist or separatist tendencies)

Elias2
26-01-11, 23:07
We know ancient Macedons were hellenic because we have quotes of them saying they were;

Alexander Quote:
If it were not my purpose to combine barbarian things with things Hellenic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenistic_civilization), to traverse and civilize every continent, to search out the uttermost parts of land and sea, to push the bounds of Macedonia to the farthest Ocean, and to disseminate and shower the blessings of the Hellenic justice and peace over every nation, I should not be content to sit quietly in the luxury of idle power, but I should emulate the frugality of Diogenes (http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Diogenes_of_Sinope). But as things are, forgive me Diogenes, that I imitate Herakles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heracles), and emulate Perseus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perseus), and follow in the footsteps of Dionysos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysus), the divine author and progenitor of my family, and desire that victorious Hellenes should dance again in India and revive the memory of the Bacchic revels among the savage mountain tribes beyond the Kaukasos…

As quoted in "On the Fortune of Alexander" by Plutarch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutarch), 332 a-b

What your doing is distorting history for your own ultra-nationalistic purposes. That won't save FYROM. The main enemy of FYROM isn't greece but itself, with an economy at 30% unemployment, GPD less than albania... the FYROM governmetnt is using nationalism as a cover for the more pressing matters. The enemy of FYROM are the FYROM people themselves ;) but you don't care beacuse you live in finland enjoying their economy while pretending to be a fighter, its rather enjoyable :)

iapetoc
26-01-11, 23:16
oh god

you bring the communist party options?

find who Pieri were,
find who was myrmidos
find who the molloseans were
find when Dion was Build
find the Language before the Koine
find similaries among phrygian and makedonian
find the aeolians Makedonian and the lokroi
find why G is in south Makedonia around Olympus
find why ollympias married Phllipos and why
Hercules 2 son sons Makednos (phillip progonos)
Myrmidos (olympias ancestor)

Yes 700-800 BC is the first Makedonia KingDom
after years of wars with thracian tribes like Pieri Paeones Thyni
why thyni left for minor Asia at 700 BC who push them?
why Pieri move to strymon at 800 BC? who pushed them
why the area south of olymp never mentioned, Larissa
why the dorians claim from Hercules and came from south east of Olymp (Makedonia birth place) why Hercules story is lost at Dion the holy city,
why the Dorians never speak easily?
why aeolians understand better makedonians than the Spartans
why Alexander did not burn Sparta?????


PaNtermalis is right ( i have heard him a lot of times and discuss , he is top)
when we speak a Macedonian we do not mean a Greek from Macedonia, but one descended from Macedonia by origin and by nationality.

the area belong to 3 thrassian tribes Pieri and Bithyni and later Vrygi
we were invaders to that land before was thracian tribes land,
we build 1 city Dion later Pydna Balla (Pelion) and much Later Aiges (goats) Pella etc
we establish a king of the union the cities at about 700 BC karamos
capital Aiges with a council from each city king
that was the system until Amyntas more cities unite or build or conquered

we never said that makedonians lived here before 2000 Bc
we estimated time of entry at 1300 Bc east of Olymp and slowly north to Aiges,
our first big state is 700BC about but cities exist at even 900 BC

what is your point?

yes we conquer area from Thracians 3 000 years before


as you realize its our nationality that named the land not a US council or an emperror
makedonia is a Nation not an area, and dont belong to it cause you are a slav

as you say xenophon the athenean its Phillip the Makedonian

petsas is also wright

for us the Greeks Makedonian is Blood connection he came from Hercules,
not a land, not a treaty,
christianity and byzantium ****** us a lot, but that is another story,
we shrunk we shrunk, but we never give up our blood,
simply not today when we speak a part from our language (at least not turkish)

besides STRABO εστιν ουν ΕλλαΣ και η Μακεδονια

DejaVu
26-01-11, 23:37
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugene_N._Borza)
Eugene N. Borza was a professor emeritus of ancient history at Pennsylvania State University (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Pennsylvania_State_University). He has written many works on the ancient kingdom of Macedonia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedonia_(ancient_kingdom)).




Published works

1962 - The Bacaudae: A Study of Rebellion in Late Roman Gaul (University of Chicago, Department of History)
1974 - The Impact of Alexander the Great (http://books.google.com/books?id=kXtPAAAACAAJ&dq) (Dryden Press, ISBN 003090000X (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/003090000X))
1990 - In the Shadow of Olympus: The Emergence of Macedon (http://books.google.com/books?id=614pd07OtfQC&printsec=frontcover&hl) (Princeton University Press, ISBN 0691008809 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/0691008809))
1995 - Makedonika (http://books.google.com/books?id=YtD5HQAACAAJ&dq=Makedonika&hl) (Regina Books, ISBN 0941690652 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Special:BookSources/0941690652))
Eugene Borza

Who Were (and Are) the Macedonians?
(Abstract from a paper presented at the 1996 Annual meeting of the American PhilologicalAssociation http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html (http://www.apaclassics.org/AnnualMeeting/96program.html))
This paper seeks to illuminate the problems associated with determining the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (were
they Greek?), and to discuss the "reverberations" (to use the organizers' term) of that issue in modem times. While the
1971 OED may regard the use of the word "ethnicity" as obsolete, no adequate substitute for the word exists. Indeed,
part of the discussion in my paper will, following the lead of Loring Danforth in his recent The Macedonian Conflict.-
Ethnic Nationalism in a Transnational World (Princeton 1995), attempt to illustrate some principles by which the "ethnicity"
of the ancient Macedonians--and, perhaps, other ancient peoples--can be discussed in a coherent manner.

Among the questions asked as appropriate to a methodological model of determining ethnicity are:

I. What were a people's origins and what language did they speak? From the surviving literary sources
(Hesiod, Herodotus, and Thucydides) there is little information about Macedonian origins, and the
archaeological data from the early period is sparse and inconclusive. On the matter of language, and despite
attempts to make Macedonian a dialect of Greek, one must accept the conclusion of the linguist R. A.
Crossland in the recent CAH, that an insufficient amount of Macedonian has survived to know what language
it was. But it is clear from later sources that Macedonian and Greek were mutually unintelligible in the court
of Alexander the Great. Moreover, the presence in Macedonia of inscriptions written in Greek is no more
proof that the Macedonians were Greek than, e.g., the existence of Greek inscriptions on Thracian vessels
and coins proves that the Thracians were Greeks.

II. Self-identity: what did the Macedonians say or think about themselves? Virtually nothing has survived
from the Macedonians themselves (they are among the silent peoples of antiquity), and very little remains in
the Classical and Hellenistic non-Macedonian sources about Macedonian attitudes.

III. What did others say about the Macedonians? Here there is a relative abundance of information from
Arrian, Plutarch (Alexander, Eumenes), Diodorus 17-20, Justin, Curtius Rufus, and Nepos (Eumenes),
based upon Greek and Greek-derived Latin sources. It is clear that over a five-century span of writing in two
languages representing a variety of historiographical and philosophical positions the ancient writers regarded
the Greeks and Macedonians as two separate and distinct peoples whose relationship was marked by
considerable antipathy, if not outright hostility.

IV. What is the nature of cultural expressions as revealed by archaeology? As above we are blessed with an
increasing amount of physical evidence revealing information about Macedonian tastes in art and decoration,
religion, political and economic institutions, architecture and settlement patterns. Clearly the Macedonians
were in many respects Hellenized, especially on the upper levels of their society, as demonstrated by the
excavations of Greek archaeologists over the past two decades. Yet there is much that is different, e. g., their
political institutions, burial practices, and religious monuments.

I will argue that, whoever the Macedonians were, they emerged as a people distinct from the Greeks who lived to the south and east. In time their royal court--which probably did not have Greek origins (the tradition in Herodotus that the Macedonian kings were descended from Argos is probably a piece of Macedonian royal propaganda)--became Hellenized in many respects, and I shall review the influence of mainstream Greek culture on architecture, art, and literary preferences.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 23:40
Ancient Macedonians were in fact Greeks?

Ancient Quotes on the Macedonians as Distinct Nation

The ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians, geographers, and orators, speak of the Macedonians as distinct nation, separate from their Greek, Thracian, and Illyrian neighbors. They are clear that Macedonia was never part of Greece and that the Macedonians conquered Greece, Thrace, and Illyria, and kept the Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians enslaved, until Rome defeated the Macedonian armies and turned the country into its first province in 168 BC. The assertion of those modern historians that propagate that the Macedonians "were Greeks" which have "united" Greece, is absurd and is completely unsupported by the words of the ancients who clearly considered Greece subjected by the Macedonian foreigners. The Macedonians garrisoned the Greek cities (like the Thracian and Illyrian cities) to enforce their occupation, and later used the Greeks (along with equal numbers of the Thracians and Illyrians) for their conquest of Persia.



1) Diodorus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/diodorus.html)
12) Plutarch (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/plutarch.html)
2) Justin (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/justin.html)
13) Livy (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/livy.html)
3) Arrian (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/arrian.html)
14) Polybius (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Polybius.html)
4) Curtius Rufus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/curtius.html)
15) Thracymachus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Thracymachus.html)
5) Thucydides (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Thucydides.html)
16) Herodotus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/herodotus.html)
6) Isocrates (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/isocrates.html)
17) Demosthenes (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/demosthenes.html)
7) Ephoros (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Ephoros.html)
18) Josephus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Josephus.html)
8) Ptolemy (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Ptolemy.html)
19) Strabo (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/strabo.html)
9) Pausanias (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/pausanias.html)
20) Dionysius Periegetes (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/Dionysius1.html)
10) Medius of Larisa (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/medeius.html)
21) Pseudo-Scylax (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/PseudoSkylax.html)
11) Pseudo-Herodotus (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/PseudoHerodotus.html)
22) Dionysius son of Kalliphon (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/DionysiusSon.html)


The ancient Greeks did not regard the Macedonians as Greeks, nor the Macedonians regarded themselves to be Greek. They were proud of their Macedonian nationality and way of life, and looked down upon the Greeks and with contempt. The Greeks called them barbarians, along with the Persians, Illyrians, and Thracians, a label that they attributed to all non-Greeks who neither spoke nor understood the Greek language. Alexander's Macedonian Army was not a "Greek army" as some modern writers have erroneously claimed, nor the Macedonian conquest of Asia was a "Greek conquest". The fact is that not one ancient writer has called the Macedonian empire "Greek" or the Macedonian army and conquest "Greek", but specifically Macedonian. When Rome clashed with Macedonia, the Macedonians were ordered by the Romans to evacuate from the whole of Greece and withdraw to Macedonia. They were hated by the Greeks ever since Philip II defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in 338 BC and brought Greece to its kneel, and the Greeks fought fiercely, first on the side of the Persians and later on the side of the Romans to expel the Macedonians from their country. Too late would they realize that the Macedonian occupation would only be replaced by the Roman. In between the Greeks fought many unsuccessful wars against the Macedonians to drive them out of Greece, among which the Lamian War is the most famous. It should be noted that the Lamian War was triggered by the death of Alexander the Great, which encouraged the Greeks to rebel.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 23:44
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lamian_War

The “Lamian War”, also referred to as the “Hellenic War” and the “War against Antipater”, was fought by the Athenians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Athenian) and their Aetolian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Aetolian), Locrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Locrian), and Phocian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Phocian) allies against the Macedonians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Macedon) in Thessaly (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thessaly) during the winter of (323 (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/323_BC)–322 BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/322_BC)). After some initial successes, the Athenians and her allies besieged the town of Lamia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lamia_(city)), located on the southern slope of the Othrys Mountains on the Malic Gulf, where Antipater, regent of Macedon and commander of the Macedonian forces in Europe, had taken refuge behind the substantial fortifications of the city. Unsuccessful in their siege, the rebel Athenians were eventually defeated at the Battle of Crannon (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Battle_of_Crannon) in Thessaly in 322, bringing the uprising to an end.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 23:47
Why the Byzantine Empire was not a "Greek Empire"?

Within the last two centuries, we have seen the western literature label the Eastern Roman Empire (Byzantine Empire) as "Greek Empire". Once again this is largely to the inventions and distortions of the western historians of the 19th century, who also falsely ascribed "Greek" ethnicity to the ancient Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/MacedoniansStyledGreeks.html). These people took the fact that Greek was used as the language of the Empire and declared that the Empire was ruled by "Greeks", had "Greek" armies, "Greek" churches, and "Greek" art. In other words they spoke of the Byzantine Empire as a "Greek Empire", a view which had been completely supported and propagated by the modern Greeks as well.



Along with distorting the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians, the labeling of the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire into "Greek" is one of the greatest fabrications of the western and modern Greek writers (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/criticism.html). Although it is true that Greek was used as the language of the Empire, that can not be taken as proof that the empire was "Greek". Latin was the original official language, imposed by the Romans who established and ruled the Roman Empire. In 395 AD when the Roman Empire split into western and eastern (Byzantine), Latin continued to be used as the official language but in time it was replaced by Greek as that language was already widely spoken among the Eastern Mediterranean nations as the main trade language. Yet the Emperors, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, although they spoke Latin and Greek, where not exclusively of Greek ethnicity. The Empire was made up of many nationalities - Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, etc. The Greeks composed only a small portion of this multi-ethnic Empire and evidence shows that they did not posses much of the power either, for we know exactly who were the Byzantine Emperors, and we know they were not ethnic Greeks.

The earlier Byzantine Emperors were Romans but in time people of different ethnic backgrounds ruled this multi-ethnic empire. It is known that the empire reached its zenith while it was ruled by the Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/RomanMacedonia/macedonianemperors.html) while the Macedonian Dynasty (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/RomanMacedonia/MacedonianEpoch.htm) was on power for almost two centuries. Other dynasties that ruled were the Syrian, Armenian, Phrygian (Amorian), and other emperors were of various nationalities. Having in mind the ethnic diversity of the empire, the Church clergy, the army, and the artists, also came from the many different nationalities, and were not exclusively ethnic Greeks. The Byzantine historians often speak of "Macedonian army", "Thracian army", "Roman army". The Thracians, Macedonians, Illyrians, Bythinians, Carians, Phrygians, Armenians, Lydians, Galatians, Paphlagonians, Lycians, Syrians, Cilicians, Misians, Cappadocians, had to speak Latin and Greek in order to communicate among themselves, but they must have used their original languages to communicate within their own ethnic boundaries, which of course does not make them "Greeks".

Thus it is inaccurate to call the Byzantine Empire a "Greek Empire" and falsely ascribe its greatness to the Greeks, when in fact it is the non-Greeks who gave the greatest contribution in its progress. The inaccurate 19th century western historiography (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/MacedoniansStyledGreeks.html) needs another major revision, just like the one it already went through regarding the ethnicity of the ancient Macedonians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/ModernHistorians.html). Otherwise it will continue to be unreliable and biased.

DejaVu
26-01-11, 23:49
Diodorus Siculus
Ancient Greek Historian

The ancient Greek historian Diodorus wrote much of the history of Macedonia from the times of Philip II and Alexander the Great up to the last Macedonian king Perseus. In his writings, Diodorus is clear that the ancient Macedonians were a distinct nation, not related to any of the Balkan peoples (Greeks, Thracians, and Illyrians). The below 40 quotes from his books XVII, XVIII, XIX, XX, XXII, XXVIII, XXIX, XXXI, and XXXII are indeed an overwhelming proof of that:

[1] For even Greeks – Thespians, Plataeans and Orchomenians, and some other hostile to the Thebans who had joined the king (of the Macedonians) in the campaign. 17.13.5.

[2] For many days the king lay helpless under his treatment, and the Greeks who had been settled in Bactria and Sogdiana, who had long borne unhappily their sojourn among peoples of another race and now received word that the king has died of his wounds, revolted against the Macedonians. They formed a band of 3000 men and underwent great hardship on their homeward route. Later they were massacred by the Macedonians after Alexander’s death. 17.99.5-6.

[3] The Macedonians and Alexander backed Coragus because he was one of them while the Greeks favored Dioxippus. 17.100.4.

[4] Then the Macedonian (Coragus) poised his long lance and charged, but the Greek (Dioxippus), when he came within reach, struck the spear with his club and shuttered it. After these two defeats, Coragus was reduced to continuing the battle with sword, but as he reached for it, the other leaped upon him and seized his swordhand with his left, while with his right hand the Greek upset the Macedonian’s balance and made him lose his footing. 17.100.6-7

[5] He (Alexander the Great) was plainly disappointed at the defeat of the Macedonian. Dioxippus released his fallen opponent, and left the field winner of the resounding victory and bedecked with ribands by his compatriots, as having brought a common glory to all Greeks. 17.101.1-2.

[6] From Europe, the Greek cities AND the Macedonians also sent embassies, as well as the Illyrians and most of those who dwell about the Adriatic Sea, the Thracian peoples and even those of their neighbors the Gauls, whose people became known then first in the Greek world. 17.113.2.

[7] When Perdiccas heard of the revolt of the Greeks, he drew by lot from the Macedonians 3000 infantry and 800 horsemen. 18.7.3

[8] They (the Greeks) had more then 20000 foot soldiers and 3000 horse. 18.7.2. 3000 of these 23000 Greeks were led by a "traitor" who "left his allies without warning and withdrew to e certain hill, taking his 3000 men". 18.7.6.

[9] When oaths to this effect had been sworn and the Greeks were interspersed among the Macedonians, Pithon was greatly pleased, seeing that the affair was progressing according to his intentions; but the Macedonians remembering the orders of Perdiccas and having no regard for the oaths that had been sworn, broke faith with the Greeks. Setting upon them unexpectedly and catching them off their ground, they shot them all down with javelins and seized their possessions as plunder. Pithon then, cheated of his hopes, came back with the Macedonians to Perdiccas. 18.7.8-9

[10] When Alexander died a short time thereafter and left no sons as successors to the kingdom, the Athenians ventured to assert their liberty (from Macedonia) and to claim the leadership of the Greeks. 18.9.1

[11] When the Aetolians listened to him gladly they gave him 7000 soldiers, he sent to the Locrians and the Phocians and the other neighboring peoples and urged them to assist their freedom and rid Greece of the Macedonian despotism. 18.9.5.

[12] The decree of the Assembly of Athens: "people should assume responsibility for the common freedom of the Greeks and liberate the cities that were subject to (Macedonian) garrisons; that they should prepare 40 quadriremes and 200 triremes (ships); that all Athenians up to age of 40 should be enrolled; that three tribes should guard Attica, and that the other seven should be ready for campaign beyond the frontier; that envoys should be sent to visit the Greek cities and tell them that formerly the Athenian people, convinced that all Greece was the common fatherland of the Greeks, had fought by see against those (Macedonian) barbarians who had invaded Greece to enslave her, and that now too Athens believed it necessary to risk lives and money and ships in defense of the common safety of the Greeks." 18.10.1-3.

[13] Of the rest of the Greeks, some were well disposed toward the Macedonians, others remained neutral. 18.11.1

[14] A few of the Illyrians and the Thracians joined the alliance (with the Greeks) because of their hatred of the Macedonians. 18.11.1-2

[15] As soon as, however, as he learned of the movement concerted against him by the Greeks, he left Sippas as general of Macedonia, giving him a significant army and bidding him enlist as many men as possible, while he himself, taking 13000 Macedonians and 600 horsemen, set out from Macedonia to Thessaly (into Greece). 18.12.2

[16] Now that this great force had been added to the Athenians, the Greeks, who far outnumbered the Macedonians, were successful. 18.12.4

[17] As the Macedonians defended themselves stoutly, many of the Greeks who pushed on rashly were killed. 18.12.1-2

[18] Antiphilus, the Greek commander, having defeated the Macedonians in a glorious battle played a waiting game, remaining in Thessaly and watching for the enemy to move. The affairs of the Greeks were thus in thriving condition, but since the Macedonians had command of the sea, the Athenians made ready other ships… 18.15.7-8.

[19] Then after such a combat I have described, the battle was broken off, as the scales of victory swung in favour of the Macedonians. More then 500 of the Greeks were killed in the battle, and 130 of the Macedonians. 18.17.5

[20] The commandant of the garrison of that city, Archelaus, who was a Macedonian by RACE, welcomed Attalus and surrendered the city to him… 18.37.3-4.

[21] Seleucus and Pithon again tried to persuade the Macedonians to remove Eumenes from his command and to cease preferring against their own interests a man who was a foreigner and who had killed very many Macedonians. 19.13.1


[22] Peucestes (Macedonian commander) had 10000 Persian archers and slingers, 3000 men of every origin equipped for service in the Macedonian array, 600 Greek and Thracian cavalry and more then 400 Persian horsemen. 19.14.5.


[23] Although the risk involved in all these circumstances was clear, nonetheless she decided to remain there, hoping that many Greeks AND Macedonians would come to her aid by sea. 19.35.6.


[24] Then, after making a truce with the other Boeotians and leaving Eupolemus as general for Greece, he went into Macedonia, for he was apprehensive of the enemy’s crossings. 19.77.5-6

[25] In this year Antigonus ordered his general Ptolemaeus into Greece to set the Greeks free… 19.77.2


[26] Ptolemaeus, the general of Antigonus, had been placed in charge of affairs thoughout Greece; 19.87.3 (not in Macedonia).

[27] This was the situation in Asia and in Greece AND Macedonia. 19.105.4

[28] And first he planned to establish order in the affairs of Greece … and then go on against Macedonia itself if Cassander did not march against him. 20.102.1

[29] While these held office, Cassander, king of the Macedonians, on seeing that the power of the Greeks was increasing and that the whole war was directed against Macedonia, became much alarmed about the future. 20.106.1-2

[30] Demetrius was followed by 1500 horsemen, not less then 8000 Macedonian foot-soldiers, mercenaries to the number of 15000, 2500 from the cities throughout Greece. 20.110.4

[31] The utmost spirit or rivalry was not lacking on either side, for the Macedonians were bent on saving their ships, while the Siceliotes wished not only to be regarded as victors over the Carthaginians and the barbarians of Italy, but also to show themselves in the Greek arena as more then a match for the Macedonians, whose spears had subjected both Asia and Europe. 21.2.2

[32] Brennus, the king of the Gauls … invaded Macedonia and engaged in battle. Having in this conflict lost many man .. as lacking sufficient strength … when later he advanced into Greece and to the oracle of Delphi which he wished to plunder. 22.9.1-2

[33] A native of Terentum, Heracleides was a man of surprising wickedness, who had transformed Philip from a victorious king into a harsh and godless tyrant, and had thereby incurred the deep hatred of all Macedonians AND Greeks. 28.9.2

[34] Flamininus held that Philip (the Macedonian king) must completely evacuate Greece, which should thereafter be ungarrisoned and autonomous. 28.11.1

[35] To this Flamininus replied that there was no need of arbitration whom he ha wronged; furthermore he himself was under orders from the Senate to liberate Greece (from Macedonia). 28.11.3-4

[36] When the news of settlement reached him, Flamininus summoned the leading men of all Greece, and convoking an assembly repeated to them Rome’s good services to the Greeks. 28.13.2 (Macedonians excluded from the leading men of Greece)

[37] In defense of the settlement made with Nabis he (Flamininus) pointed out that the Romans had done what was in their power, and that in accordance with the declared policy of the Roman people all the inhabitants of Greece were now free (of Macedonia), ungarrisoned, and most important of all, governed by their own laws. 28.13.3

[38] Philip threatens the Greek Thessalians: "They were not aware, he said, that the Macedonian sun had not yet altogether set." 29.16.1-2

[39] He said, namely, that after seeing the sun rise as he was about to begin transporting his army from Italy to Greece… five day later he arrived in Macedonia. 31-11.2-4

[40] Having as his accomplice a certain harpist named Nicolaus, a Macedonian by birth… 32.15.9

iapetoc
26-01-11, 23:54
you write a ton of .... what ?
i told we conquer land from Thracians and later allied wit paeonians (today skopje)

why you write all these
just to make an apearrance
they are all known
But you never read the replies
simpy you COPY PASTE

you probably never been to Dion as a true Makedonian is obliged to do

Keep copy paste Bullshit

YOU DIDN'T EVEN SAID ME IF WYOU WANT A BOTTLE OF WINE AS GIFT
CAUSE YOU NEVER READ, SIMPLY YOU
COPY PASTE from Fyromian National front site

we are here i m drinking Fyromian wine and shine my AK47
i said do you want me to send you a bottle? you even not reply
that means in case of war you will stay in sweden in your safety,


get in your mind
the greeks live in regions

1 makedonia
2 thessaly
3 peloponese
4 crete
5 islands
6 epirus
7 thrace
8 Greece

the area from Phthia to Fokis (ftiotida boiotia eurutania fokida) is named Greece

that greece you mention is 'sterea Greece' 'ctara grcka'

understand it that greece is a geografiacal region even today
its name is sterea Ellas or Sterea Greece or Ctara Grcka
it is not a different country,
its a province understand it

dont be an idiot
that is the name of a province even today named Greece
search were there any spartan at these battles? any cretan?
it was the Atheneans and thebeans and sterea Greeks who had collonies in Makedonia
Greeks comes from Homer Graikoi and was the people of Greece province
not the Hellenes
my nation is not Greek, english call me that
my nation is Hellenes
we are Hellenes, sons of Hellen and we make games at Hellanas River in Greece,
later Olympia was Build in Peloponese,
you write with out knowing what you write

that Greece is a region

Stop PERVERTing history, Greece region has nothing to do with Hellenick Nation
stop mixing Geography with Nationality

DejaVu
26-01-11, 23:56
Its more relevant then your claim of Hercules. What more fantasies suits your dream?

Garrick
26-01-11, 23:58
DejaVu
You can see similarity in haplogroups between Serbia and Macedonia FYROM and comment on the differences.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia _ and _ Macedonia (FYROM)
I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5%_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0%____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia census 2001
Ethnic Serbs 83%, Others 17%

Macedonia FYROM census 2001
Ethnic Slavic Macedonians 65%, Ethnic Albanians 24%, Others 11%

Comments

Given that the majority Albanians haplogroup is E is not surprising that is a greater percentage of E in Macedonia than in Serbia.

The part of E carriers in Serbia is from the migration of Montenegrins where E is higher percentage than in Macedonia.

If we consider only ethnic Serbs and ethnic Slavic Macedonians, haplogroup I is the higher percentage comparing the total population of these countries.


DejaVu
I'm going to Macedonia (FYROM), I have friends in Macedonia, I have visited most of Western Macedonia, and I'll tell you that I never had any problems what more when in a object, shop or anywhere they hear that I speak Serbian, all are very friendly and happy to be, simply they do not want to hide feeling and no policy that can prevent.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 00:03
Mixed inhabitants from many settlers including Macedonians, Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians and many more. Lost their identity and got a new from their rulers and that have nothing to do with Serbia.

Do you know any people that match from those countries in familytreedna?

Why dont you compare the other neighbours, Bulgarians, Albanians and Greeks with Serbians and Macedonians?

DejaVu
27-01-11, 00:03
Victor A Friedman

"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"

Victor Friedman received his B.A. in Russian Language and Literature from Reed College in 1970 and his Ph. D. in both Slavic Languages and Literatures and in General Linguistics from the University of Chicago in 1975. This was the first joint degree granted in the Division of the Humanities at Chicago, and his dissertation, “The Grammatical Categories of the Macedonian Indicative” won the Mark Perry Galler prize for the best dissertation in the Humanities Division that year. From 1975 to 1993 he taught in the Department of Slavic Languages at the University of North Carolina, Chapel Hill, where he chaired the Department from 1987 to 1993. In 1993 he moved to the University of Chicago, where he is Andrew W. Mellon Professor in the Humanities with a joint appointment in Linguistics and Slavic Languages and Literatures and an associate appointment in Anthropology. He has over 200 publications, and The Grammatical Categories of the Macedonian Indicative (Slavica, 1977) was the first book on Modern Macedonian published in the United States.

Friedman has done fieldwork in the Balkans for over thirty-five years and has received research grants from Fulbright-Hays, IREX, ACLS, NEH, APS, etc. In 1982 he received the "1300 Years of Bulgaria" jubilee medal for contributions to the field of Bulgarian studies. In 1991 and again in 2003, he was awarded the University of Skopje Gold Plaque for contributions to the field of Macedonian studies, and in 1994 he was elected to the Macedonian Academy of Arts and Sciences. In 1995 he was elected to Matica Srpska, and in 2004 he was elected to the Academy of Arts and Sciences of Kosova. During the Yugoslav Wars of Succession, he worked as a Senior Policy and Political Analyst for the Analysis and Assessment Unit of the United Nations Protection Forces stationed in former Yugoslavia (summer 1994), joined a fact finding mission for the South Balkan Project of the Center for Preventive Action of the Council on Foreign Relations (1995-1997), consulted for the International Crisis Group (1997), and did some work with the United States Institute for Peace (1999-2000). He has been a visiting scholar at Cornell (Balkan linguistics, LSA summer institute 1997), University of Skopje (Balkan Identity, 1999), Central European University-Budapest (Romani linguistics 1999, 2001, 2003), Kyoto University (Balkan linguistics, 1999), National University of Malaysia (Southeast Europe/Southeast Asia: Comparative Perspectives, 2000), University of Helsinki (Balkan linguistics, 2000), University of Prishtina (Balkan and Caucasian linguistics, 2002), and LaTrobe University (Research Center for Linguistic Typology, Balkan linguistics, 2004).

Friedman’s research centers on grammatical categories (particularly the verb), language contact, and sociolinguistics (especially problems of variation and standardization) in the Balkans and the Caucasus. Owing to the intimate connections of language with politics and ethnic identity in these parts of the world, his work has of necessity been interdisciplinary. His publications deal with the following languages: Albanian, Aromanian (Vlah), Azeri, Bosnian/Croatian/Serbian (especially the Torlak dialects), Bulgarian, Georgian, Greek, Judezmo, Lak, Macedonian, Megleno-Romanian, Romani, Romanian, Russian, Tadjik, Turkish.

"We know what Ancient Greek, Latin, and Old Church Slavonic, and Sanskrit look liked, and we have Turkic texts going back to the 8th century. We know what these languages looked like in the early medieval period. For Albanian, our oldest significant texts are from the early modern period. We know these changes, these grammatical influences, were taking place in the late medieval and early Ottoman periods (although some are older in some languages). It was really in the Ottoman period that the Balkan languages as we know them today came to resemble one another."

"The Bulgarians didn’t have a state until the Russo-Turkish War of 1878."

"Arvanatika - Most precisely, it refers to the Albanian dialects of Greece that separated from the main body of Tosk Albanian 600-1000 years ago. The dialects were spoken on many Greek islands, the Peloponnese, and in Attica and Central Greece. Greeks don’st like to admit it, but they have had large Albanian-speaking populations for a very long time, not just post-Communist economic migrants. While these dialects are now moribund owing to hegemonistic Greek language policies, they can still be encountered in places like Livadhia."

"But already in the 19th century, Macedonian speakers were calling themselves Macedonians (Makedontsi), their language, Makedonski. This is documented.
Some Macedonian speakers identified as Bulgarians,Serbs, Greeks or Turks, depending on religious loyalties, but most of the time, speakers called themselves Christians or Turks (Muslims)."

DejaVu
27-01-11, 00:05
Who was Georgija Kastriot (Gjergj Kastrioti, Georgius Castriotus, Georgios Kastriotis)?

The book about Georgija Kastriot written by Petar Popovski.

There are 20 full songs like these in the book, sung in a western Macedonian (Mijak) dialect. Albanians have none. Georgija Kastriot was IMPOSED in their history, by the Austro-hungarian and Italian politico-historians when Albania was formed in 1912.

One is the song about the dream of his mother Voislava and the second is the song about Georgija and his wife Marija Andronika.

Son sonila Voislava kralica
son sonila od son se isplasila
Mi rodila bela luta zmija
So kriljata Epir pokrivala
So glavata carigrad dopirala
Kako zmija glava mu vrtela
Take zivi Turci mi g'ltala

Se chudeje epirski vojvodi
sho je ova chudo nevideno
Malo kralce, s kruna na cheloto
Se radveshe Ivanova roda
Brakja , sestri i si bratuchedi
Sho se rodi dete zvezdajlija...

Mu kladoja ime Gospodovo
Georgija - ime hristijansko
Makedonsko - slavno biblijansko....

==========

Ushche zora ne zorila
Stana Ivan na pot da mi odit
Mi razbudi sina Georgija
Si jafnaje svoi brzi konji
Otidoje vo grada Kanina..

Zdravo zivo tije si storile
I na divan skrisno besedeje
Da se krenat protiv Osmanlii
Da si vratit zemji porobeni
Ji sluzese mlada Andronika
S crno kafe i s luta rakija
Frli oko Gjorgji na devojka
Lichna moma kako samovila....


Barleti is Georija's biograph, a bishop that lived in Georgija's rule...In his book "Historia de vita et rebus gestis Scanderbegi" he refers to Kastriot only with "King of Epirus and Macedonia"

T. Spanducci, a writer from the 17th century in his book "Historia" wrote:

"Georgija Kastriot was respected not only by his tribe, the Mijak tribe but all other nations, even the Turks. His mother was Vojislava, a Macedonian woman, daughter of a nobleman from Polog, which of course is a part of Macedonia..."
And then he concludes:
"The Mijak tribe and all the other Slovenes have many reasons for the glorification and the singed songs about their hero Georgija Kastriot, because he fought for the protection of the slav culture, for the christian cross and for the freedom, but also because he had the most noble name from his kind - Georgija"

Even today in Mount Athos in the Monastery Hilandar(Χιλανδαρίου) you can see the writing of the monk Nikanor that says:
Сеи хрисовуль есть господара Ивнна Кацтпиота македонскаго, и копίе его вь немъ есть. И пише како даеть монастирю нашему две села во и суща съ церковьίю Пресветы, Богородицы тамо сущίа, и описуеть вс по синорами, и прочат.

P.S. Vita et res praeclare gestae Christi Athletae Georgii Castrioti Epirotarum principis, qui propter heroicam virtutem suam a Turcis Scander beg, id est Alexander Magnus cognominatus est libris XIII a Marino Barletio, Scodrensi sacerdote conscripta, denum cum licentia superiourum reimpressa, Zagrabiaeanno 1743.

When the Ottomans found the grave of Skanderbeg in Saint Nicholas, a church in Lezhë, they opened it and made amulets of his bones, believing that these would confer bravery on the wearer.
His grave is in a orthodox church yard.

Coat of arms (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Coat_of_arms) of the Kastrioti (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kastrioti) family
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/9c/StemaeFamiljesKastrioti2.GIF

DejaVu
27-01-11, 00:07
Georgija, of course, based on relevant historical sources.
The family (descent) Kastriot, whose descendant is Georgija Kastriot, originates from the Mijak tribal group Kastrates. Today there are two assumptions for his birthplace. By ones, Georgija was born in the village Simona, north of the town Kroja (now Kruja), by others in the village Rostusha, Debar region. The Kastriot family was famous even in the first half of the XIV century when his grandfather Konstantin Kastriot became a head of the Macedonian (Miak) population in the region of Matka (now Mat) and Mala Les (now Malesia, that is Male Zi), Northern Albania. Formerly Konstantin was one of the greatest salt traders with Dubrovnik. After his death his son Ivan, who accepting the vassalage of the Turks succeeded to protect that part of today Albania from the Ottoman slavery, inherited him. Ivan's father left more written documents testifying about the Macedonian (Mijak) character of the Kastriot descent. On this occasion we shall cite only a part of the charter written by the hand of Ivan to the Monastery of Hilendar, on Sveta Gora, from 1426.

In this document, written in Old Church Slavic language
the following is written.

"According to the unspeakable mercy of my ruler Christ, I, sinful and
unworthy, must not be mistaken to my Jesus Christ, Ivan Kastriot and my sons Stanisha and Riposha and Konstantin and Georgij. have contributed to the Holy monastery great Prechista of the ruler Lavri of Hilendar and I contributed the village Rodostushe and the church St.Prechista Bogorodica, also in that village Rodostushe and the village Trebishte.

The writing is confirmed with a seal with the name of Ivan Kastriot,
written in Cyrillic alphabet (See documents in: St.Novakovich, Legal
monuments./fifth book, pg. 467).

From the correspondence with the Dubrovnik Republic, having political,
military and trade relations, three letters have been saved written also in
Cyrillic alphabet. His Macedonian-Christian spirit and character is clearly seen from the letters. This spirit is mostly expressed in the letter from 25 February 1420, sent to the landowner Petar from Dubrovnik, which says:

"My faith in Christ as well as the faith of my sons Reposh, Stanislav,
Konstantin and Georgija. My Gjorgjian country, extending from Konjuh (now Elbasan) to Prizren, is maintained and cultivated by me, Mr. Ivan and my sons."

As it can be seen here, Ivan Kastriot calls his landowner's territory "Gjorgjian", that is "Gjorgjian land", after the name of his grand-grandfather Gjorgjia, he had inherited it from. These records deny all theses, lies, forgeries and speculations for the supposed Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) that is Albanian character of the Kastriot family.
A testimony for the Macedonian (Mijak) origin of Georgija is the
personal names in the descent of the Kastriot family. Namely, in this Macedonian ancient family we meet the most archaic and most characteristic Slavic biblical names like: Branislav, Pavle, Nikola, Gjorgjija, Konstantin - all ancestors of Georgjija. His parents, his father Ivan and his mother Voislava, had four sons - Reposh, Stanislav, Konstantin and Georgija and five daughters - Radislava,
Marija, Vlajka, Angelina and Mamica. Georgija's sons were named after their ancestors: Ivan and Pavle, which is a common characteristic of the Mijak descendants. None of the names here can be identified with the Gego-Mirditian (Arnautian) element.

A testimony for the Macedonian character of this family, above all, are the ancient so called Slavic noun suffixes - Slav and slava, like
in the names Brani(slav), Stani(slav), Rado(slava) and Voi(slava) identifying their Macedonian (Slavic) origin. (Compare to: F.Barishik, and the origin of the Slavics.CXLII).

Such characteristic Macedonian (Slavic) names before Ivan and
Georgija, within their time and after, had all other landowners in the areas of today Albania, which was completely understandable, because the Mijak element since ancient times populated the whole territory of today Albania. (See documentary with: Mussachi, Lejean, Karl Hort, Arni Boue, Seiner, Hahn, MacCenzi, Irby, Pankville, Treimer etc.etc.). Georgija had never called himself Gjergj. We do not meet him under such name in no written document. Neither in the narrative nor in the epigraphic. And that the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) call him by such name is an unbelievable historical forgery.

Some historians, with little knowledge of the history of Albania and the
genesis of the Shgipetars (Tosks) and the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), today- the Albanians, make a big mistake naming Georgija with the noun supplement-Skenderbeg. He had never been Skender or Bey! In the authentic historical sources we met him only and solely with the title Macedonian (Mijak) duke, that is the Duke of Arvatia and the Duke of Epirus. (Compare with same sources).

The noun supplement Skenderbeg is a pure historical forgery. His real noun supplement is Iskender, which according to the eastern tradition means Alexander. Since the Arnautian "scientists" do not read the history, let us say why Georgija got the noun supplement Iskender (Alexander)? As it is known, in the period of 1448-1468, Georgija waged a few fierce battles with the Turks, not allowing them to conquer his native country-Arvatia, named so after the ancient Macedonian (Slavic) tribal group Arv'n. He got the noun supplement Iskender in 1455 when with his fellow tribesmen- the Mijaks, captured for the second time the town Belgrade (now Berat) from the Turks. It was named so from the sultan Mohammed II personally (1451-1481) who took part in the battle he, excited by what he had seen and experienced. (Compare with: Paganel, Bajron, Marinus
Barletius). Because of the heroism, bravery and the military tactics he used in that battle, the Turks called him "The second hero Alexander the Great", that is "the Second Alexander the Great". (See with: Bajron, Paganel and Baletius).

Not accidentally, because the armies of Georgija were not composed of Arnauts, as some writers and quasi-historians are trying to distort and forge the history, but of native Macedonian (Mijak) population. Namely at his time, at the time of Georgija, the Gego-Mirdits (Arnaurs) were not present in those areas. The Turks brought them even after about more than hundred years, after 1570 from the district Antalia in Turkey, with a purpose to protect its northern border with one-religion Muslim population. It is an unbeatable historical fact.

It is recommended to the "historian" Bejta and all other "scientists" not to deal with various lies but to look over the official censual documents of XIV, XV and XVI century (The Skadar Katastich of 1416 and the Turkish censual books of the XV and XVI century) to see that at that historical period they did not exist in the areas of today Albania. Even if one would accept the assumption that the Gegs (the Arnauts) were in the Arvanite areas, there was no reason for them to rebel against the Turks, since from their coming in the Balkan regions they were the most privileged ethnic group as well as collaborators in the government, keeping
the Macedonian element obedient by terror and violence.

The best expert in the life and revolutionary deed of Georgija Kastriot,
the Skadar priest-humanist Marinus Barletius, whose study about Georgija was published in 1493, only 26 years after his death, had never used the term Albanians and the country Albania for the population in then Arvania, but Macedonian that is Macedonia (See: Marinus Barletius, Historia de vita.pg. 22, 23, 27, 31, 68, 136, 157, 241, 259, 301, 331, 334, 337 and so on).

Only at some places we meet the term Tribal, which also means Macedonian (Slavic) population. This record testifies that at the time of Georgija Kastriot the term Albania was unknown as well as the term Albanians, not only in this part of the Balkans but in the entire civilized Europe.

Albania got its name later by the strangers- Anglo Saxons who gave the name Albania to all mountainous regions in Europe. (British Albanian, Belgian Albanian, Avstrian Albanian, that is Alpian etc.) which by the Celtic forms Alb, Alp, that is Albanik, means Mountain (See documentary and wider with: Leon Dominian's, Friunters of Language.192).

So mistaken are all today Albanians who think that the name Albania has some national ethnical or people's meaning. Namely the name Albania is a simple geographical notion. If this historical record is unknown to the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts), then it is to be known that their real name is-Mountaineers and not some exalted forms and fixed idea, the artificially
imposed name Albania i. e Albanians looking at them as if some national omen not knowing its real etymological meaning. So, not accidentally, their supposed comrades - Shgipetars (Tosks), categorically deny that name, keeping its ancient national people's name. - Shipnija. I. e. Shiptar, so that the Gego-Mirdits (the Arnauts) looked at it irreconcilable and with contempt.

In order to count all arguments, which reject, as groundless, the romantic thesis of the Gego-Mirdits for the supposed Arnautian origin of Georgija we shall need much more space.

First and basic is that all scientists without exception, who wrote about Georgija, more than 220 studies have been written so far, state and prove with arguments that he had "Slavic" and only "Slavic" i. e. Macedonian - Mijak origin.

Second, so far the Mijaks have written over 3200 strophes for Georgija,
his bravery and heroism, out of which 17 epic songs and ballads. A part of those songs praise the Kastriot family, his wife Maria Andronika, better known as Banovica for whom a special ballad was written, as well as the state wisdom and capability of the Duke Georgija.

And the Gego-Mirdits (Arnauts) did not write any song for "their hero"! No need of any further comment about this.

Third, Georgija was not a Muslim but a faithful Orthodox Christian. He was born and died in a Mijak Orthodox Christian family, evidence are the charters of his father Ivan for the Hilendar monastery. In 1431 his elder brother Reposh was buried in the Hilendar monastery, evidence is the inscription in Old Church Slavic in the narthex of the Hilendar Cathedral with his name and year of his death. This is a sufficiently convincing record about the Kastriot family ties with this ancient Macedonian religious center.

Fourth, in the fierce battles with the Turks, Georgija was not fighting under the flag of "the Eagles", as the Arnautian "scientists" and quasi-historians of Bejta type like to say, but under the Mijak holy flag known as "A flag with a cross", with the symbol of ancient Macedonia on a red field-the Lion! According to a legend in the villages Gorno Melnichani and Pareshe there were about 14 houses of descendants of Georgija' sons, Ivan and Pavle, who kept close family relations with their relatives in the village Simona and in the town Kroja and they visited each other.

All of them" under the pressure of the wild Gegi bandits" during the Balkan wars migrated in Sophia, Salonika and Constantinople. (Kosta Zunguloski, Chronicle notes.2

The name of Kastriot Georgija is related to another very significant
event for the history of the Macedonian people.

Namely, after his death in 1468, over 200.000 Macedonians, members of the Mijak ethnic group, fearing possible revenge from the Turks, through the Rodon Gulf, at the town Leska (now Lesh), migrated, a part of them in Dalmatia and in the Venice Republic and a part in South Italy in the districts - Apulia, Calabria and Sicilia. The native Italian population called the Prishels from Arvania- Galabardnos, that is Golobrdjans (in dialect Golobrzdans), which was understandable, because a great part of those migrators originated from the district Golo Brdo, then from the bottom of the mountain Mokra and the region Chermenika, all of them in now Central Albania. (See with: K.Treimer.Lingvistisch-kultur-historische.447).

Before the end of the XIV century, in those districts, the new immigrated Macedonian population formed its own Orthodox Church municipalities and already at the beginning of the XVI century, in the heart of the Catholic Church the Macedonian orthodox eparchy was formed, known as "Italian orthodox eparchy", its first archbishop was the metropolitan Timotej. Almost three centuries that eparchy was under the Ohrid Archbishopric-Patriarchy at the time when it was the biggest church in the Christian world. Its diocese, consisted of 32 eparchies, extended from Sicilia on the west to Ukraine on the east. (See documentary, chronologically and wider with: I.S.Palamov], New documents.1-31, with: E.E. Golubinskiq, Kratkiq ocherk].120-139 and with Ier.Arseniq, Destiny of the Orthodox Church.80-91).

In order to count all merits by which the duke Georgija Kastriot
obligated Macedonia and the Macedonian nation we shall need much wider space. But the above said is enough to see who was Georgija Kastriot and how great was his real historical role, dimension and significance.

iapetoc
27-01-11, 00:31
Victor A Friedman

"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"

wow , then from skopje the serbians went north
the croats west
the bosnians north west, as slovenians

wow the scordisci people invate from skopje to Slovakia
the srbians did not from the north,
even chechs started from skopje to expand slavian
polands yes they started from Skopje and went north north to balic spreadind the slavian languge

hahaha
Victor A Friedman

"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"

from south to north hahaha

besides as you said it

Victor A Friedman

"Macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"

you speak slavic you admited it
your lie is obvious

bye bye thieve

Garrick
27-01-11, 00:32
Mixed inhabitants from many settlers including Macedonians, Greeks, Illyrians, Thracians and many more. Lost their identity and got a new from their rulers and that have nothing to do with Serbia.

Do you know any people that match from those countries like familydna?

Why dont you compare the other neighbours, Bulgarians, Albanians and Greeks with Serbians and Macedonians?

All others are referring to are different, the Serbs and FYROM Macedonians are most similar to each other.

I will give you pictures of some analysis and you can watch.

And analysis showed that even Montenegrins are more different.

And now look at the census in Yugoslavia, 1924.


http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2708/census.jpg

Only Serbs no Macedonians and the census was entirely legal, accordance with European criteria at the time.

Macedonians appear after World War II when the Communists came to power, and it can be easilly checked in the history.

iapetoc
27-01-11, 00:35
victor a friedman

"macedonian slavic is the root to all slavic languages"

victor friedman received his b.a. In russian language and literature from reed college in 1970 and his ph. D. In both slavic languages and literatures and in general linguistics from the university of chicago in 1975. This was the first joint degree granted in the division of the humanities at chicago, and his dissertation, “the grammatical categories of the macedonian indicative” won the mark perry galler prize for the best dissertation in the humanities division that year. From 1975 to 1993 he taught in the department of slavic languages at the university of north carolina, chapel hill, where he chaired the department from 1987 to 1993. In 1993 he moved to the university of chicago, where he is andrew w. Mellon professor in the humanities with a joint appointment in linguistics and slavic languages and literatures and an associate appointment in anthropology. He has over 200 publications, and the grammatical categories of the macedonian indicative (slavica, 1977) was the first book on modern macedonian published in the united states.

Friedman has done fieldwork in the balkans for over thirty-five years and has received research grants from fulbright-hays, irex, acls, neh, aps, etc. In 1982 he received the "1300 years of bulgaria" jubilee medal for contributions to the field of bulgarian studies. In 1991 and again in 2003, he was awarded the university of skopje gold plaque for contributions to the field of macedonian studies, and in 1994 he was elected to the macedonian academy of arts and sciences. In 1995 he was elected to matica srpska, and in 2004 he was elected to the academy of arts and sciences of kosova. During the yugoslav wars of succession, he worked as a senior policy and political analyst for the analysis and assessment unit of the united nations protection forces stationed in former yugoslavia (summer 1994), joined a fact finding mission for the south balkan project of the center for preventive action of the council on foreign relations (1995-1997), consulted for the international crisis group (1997), and did some work with the united states institute for peace (1999-2000). He has been a visiting scholar at cornell (balkan linguistics, lsa summer institute 1997), university of skopje (balkan identity, 1999), central european university-budapest (romani linguistics 1999, 2001, 2003), kyoto university (balkan linguistics, 1999), national university of malaysia (southeast europe/southeast asia: Comparative perspectives, 2000), university of helsinki (balkan linguistics, 2000), university of prishtina (balkan and caucasian linguistics, 2002), and latrobe university (research center for linguistic typology, balkan linguistics, 2004).

Friedman’s research centers on grammatical categories (particularly the verb), language contact, and sociolinguistics (especially problems of variation and standardization) in the balkans and the caucasus. Owing to the intimate connections of language with politics and ethnic identity in these parts of the world, his work has of necessity been interdisciplinary. His publications deal with the following languages: Albanian, aromanian (vlah), azeri, bosnian/croatian/serbian (especially the torlak dialects), bulgarian, georgian, greek, judezmo, lak, macedonian, megleno-romanian, romani, romanian, russian, tadjik, turkish.

"we know what ancient greek, latin, and old church slavonic, and sanskrit look liked, and we have turkic texts going back to the 8th century. We know what these languages looked like in the early medieval period. For albanian, our oldest significant texts are from the early modern period. We know these changes, these grammatical influences, were taking place in the late medieval and early ottoman periods (although some are older in some languages). It was really in the ottoman period that the balkan languages as we know them today came to resemble one another."

"the bulgarians didn’t have a state until the russo-turkish war of 1878."

"arvanatika - most precisely, it refers to the albanian dialects of greece that separated from the main body of tosk albanian 600-1000 years ago. The dialects were spoken on many greek islands, the peloponnese, and in attica and central greece. Greeks don’st like to admit it, but they have had large albanian-speaking populations for a very long time, not just post-communist economic migrants. While these dialects are now moribund owing to hegemonistic greek language policies, they can still be encountered in places like livadhia."

"but already in the 19th century, macedonian speakers were calling themselves macedonians (makedontsi), their language, makedonski. This is documented.
some macedonian speakers identified as bulgarians,serbs, greeks or turks, depending on religious loyalties, but most of the time, speakers called themselves christians or turks (muslims)."


wowowoww

slavic

wowowow 8t cantury???

wowowow

Friedman is Good

slavic 8th century Bulgaria wowowowow

now who is lier?

Garrick finally he make the mistake
He admit that he is a slavic-Makedonian

FINALLY

probably he is an ex-communist that lives in sweden with lots of money and wants a war in which he will be in sweden and others will die

DejaVu
27-01-11, 00:38
100% wrong and slavic dont exist as a language, but many languages exist as slavic languages. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Macedonian
The language went from Macedonias capitol Thessalonica and was used to spread the christian religion. There are also words from Koine.

Are you going to claim origin of Hercules again? What more fantasies suits your dream?
You have been spamming all the time. Are you a satanist? Go visit a doctor you are not 100% fresh in your brain.

iapetoc
27-01-11, 00:45
wrong again slavic-makedonian

Old Macedonian may refer to:


An alternative name for the Old Church Slavonic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Macedonian#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Macedonian#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Macedonian#cite_note-2)
The Macedonian recension (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#Macedonian_recension) of Old Church Slavonic (10th–14th century)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Macedonian#cite_note-3)

no Thessalonica 10th century here slavic-makedonski

sfati? razbiraz? razoumes?


hahaha thief we got you

slavic Makedonian hahaha

znam ova e vistina

Hvala Tito

all are fake except Fyrom

hahaha

DejaVu
27-01-11, 00:50
WRONG AGAIN CHRISTIAN TURK. OPEN YOUR EYES DONT SLEEP.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic
Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic also known as Old Macedonian.
The Macedonian recension is one of the oldest recensions of Old Church Slavonic.

iapetoc
27-01-11, 00:59
Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic (abbreviated as OCS), also known as Old Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bulgarian)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-2) or Old Macedonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Macedonian),[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-4)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-5) was the first literary Slavic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_language), based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki) region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-6) missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-7), who used it for translation of the Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible) and other Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_language) ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings. It played a great role in the history of Slavic languages and served as a basis and model for later Church Slavonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Slavonic_language) traditions, where Church Slavonic is used as a liturgical language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgical_language) to this day by some Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodoxy) and Greek-Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches) Churches of the Slavic peoples.

Slavic 9th century AD, not 7 century BC
Slavic-Makedonian

so you are a Slavo-Makedonian

thank you I will not buy your Makedonia

its a shame
i respect serbs cause they say who they are and don't steal
I respect bulgarians for the same
I respect albanians
but you?
you came at 5-6 century and claim Alexander???? SHAME

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:04
Macedonian parliamentary delegation delighted with the reception in Israel

Welcome to the descendants of Alexander the Macedonian

President welcomed the Israeli Knesset speaker Veljanoski say that he is the first Macedonians are signs in the book of impressions, but it is the first Macedonians to visit Israel, because it was Alexander of Macedon

Israel acknowledges the roots of ancient Macedonia. President of the Israeli Knesset Reuven Rivlin has given such recognition Speaker Veljanoski, who last week led a parliamentary delegation to the three-day visit to Israel.
The first man of the Israeli Parliament Rivlin, who is a very respected politician in the Jewish state at the moment while Speaker Veljanoski signed the book of impressions, spared no praise for him and for Macedonia. "Mr. President, you are the first Macedonian to sign the book of impressions, but you are not the first Macedonian who came to Israel. It was Alexander of Macedon," said Rivlin. This comment Rivlin pleasantly surprised and delighted Veljanoski speaker, and members of the Macedonian delegation.
Speaker Rivlin, who comes from one of the oldest Jewish families, was very friendly to guests from Macedonia. While the delegation attended a session of the Knesset, he spared no praise for the guests and all the time called Macedonia by its constitutional name, even though Israel has recognized us under the reference FYROM.
The warm reception in Israel testify and members of the Macedonian delegation, who could not find words to describe the Israeli hospitality. "We are simply thrilled," said MP and member of the Macedonian delegation.
As is known, during the three-day stay last week, the Macedonian delegation was received by top officials of the highest state of Israel President Shimon Peres, Knesset Speaker Reuven Rivlin and Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman.
At all meetings, which were accompanied with full state honors, the Israelis stressed the close historical relations with Macedonia. High delegation to Israel is expected to come here on the release of the Holocaust Memorial Center in Skopje, which is planned for March 2011.

N. Selmani

iapetoc
27-01-11, 01:10
Old Church Slavonic or Old Church Slavic (abbreviated as OCS), also known as Old Bulgarian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Bulgarian)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-0)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-1)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-2) or Old Macedonian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Macedonian),[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-3)[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-4)[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-5) was the first literary Slavic language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_language), based on the old Slavic dialect of the Thessaloniki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessaloniki) region, employed by the 9th century Byzantine [7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-6) missionaries, Saints Cyril and Methodius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Church_Slavonic#cite_note-7), who used it for translation of the Bible (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible) and other Ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek_language) ecclesiastical texts, and for some of their own writings. It played a great role in the history of Slavic languages and served as a basis and model for later Church Slavonic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_Slavonic_language) traditions, where Church Slavonic is used as a liturgical language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liturgical_language) to this day by some Orthodox (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Orthodoxy) and Greek-Catholic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Catholic_Churches) Churches of the Slavic peoples.

Slavic-Makedonian

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:11
Koiné language, why is it called Koine? Is the peoples identity Koine that speak Koine?

iapetoc
27-01-11, 01:15
yes offcourse fake-Makedonian

Sorros from Fyrom who bombed Serbia with madline aulbright, and broke Greek Economy at stock exchange

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:27
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n1/abs/5201726a.html

Three Pakistani populations residing in northern Pakistan, the Burusho, Kalash and Pathan claim descent from Greek soldiers associated with Alexander's invasion of southwest Asia. Earlier studies have excluded a substantial Greek genetic input into these populations, but left open the question of a smaller contribution.

The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype, determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there. Although based on only a few unrelated descendants, this provides strong evidence for a European origin for a small proportion of the Pathan Y chromosomes.


Kalash people claiming Macedonian ancestry and not Greek.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kalash
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBOuSadgwJg&feature=related

Hunza people claiming Macedonian ancestry and not Greek.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunza_people

Hunza, self-proclaimed descendants of Alexander the Great, visit the Republic of Macedonia.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G1BsU...eature=related (https://www.flashback.org/leave.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3 Fv%3DG1BsUbnnJoI%26amp%3Bfeature%3Drelated)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yGt___N0znw (https://www.flashback.org/leave.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3 Fv%3DyGt___N0znw)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHFPn...eature=related (https://www.flashback.org/leave.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3 Fv%3DFHFPno36jJE%26amp%3Bfeature%3Drelated)




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burushaski_language
Their language Burushaski have nothing to do with Greek.

Ilija Chashule "Basic Burushaski Etymologies"(Muenchen Newcastle , ISBN 3 89586 0891) with the similarities between the modern Macedonian and Burushaski language:



BU:
ASHMILAS, ASHMILJ = to pacify, placade, persuade, also MILI as a title for the beloved in folk song.
PRO-SLAV:
mil`= dear,
LYTV: mylas and meilus = dear.
MK:
MIL =dear, Smiluva, Smili = to pacify.

BU:
ASPALAS, ASPALJ = to kindle, light
PROSlAV:
Paliti = to burn, to set in flames.
MK:
SPALE,ZAPALE = to burn, to set in flames.

BU:
ASH = neck, nape of neck, external trhoat.The locativ of the ASH is ASHI
PSlav, MK:
Shija = neck.It is also related to the word SHITI = to sew

The BURushaski word in its special locative form both semantically and phonetically parallels Slavic.


BU:
BALKAS( IN LOCATIV: BILKIS) = treasure
SOUTH SLAV: BLAGO = treasure
MK NAME: BLAGA = treasure.

BU:
BERKAT = Berg, Mountain.
MK: BREG= Berg, Mountain.
PROSLAV:
BERG´ = berg, Mountain

BU:
BIRI= boiling
MK: VRIE = boiling...as so many times mentioned, B and V are changed many times, Servia=Serbia.

BU:
BÚR = a single hair.
ANC MK :
ABROUWES = eye brows
PRO SLAV, Old SLAV:
BRY, (GENETIV: BR'EVE) = eye brow.

BU:
D*- ASPASAS, D*-SPASASH = to protect, save, rescue.
MK:
SPASE = save,
DA SPASESH = to save someone.

BU:
DELAS, DELIAS, DELJ = 1)to beat, strike, smite, hit, shoot,...2) to kill to slay
SANSKRIT:
DALATI = crack, splits
PRO SLAV:
DELATI = to work.
MK:
DELIA = Mythical Hero who kills the Turks.

GARU( ALSO: GARÚKI) = spring

ALSO: GARÚM = hot GARÚRUM = hot, warm, AS NOUN: GARÚRUMKUSH = heat.

GARI = lamp, light , pupil of eye.

ANC MK:
GORPIAIOS = a hot Macedonian Month
MK:
GREE = warm, to warm
GARE= warming meal, cook soup.

BU:
GIRATAS; GIRASH = to dance, play
OLD SLAV, MK:
IGRA = dance, play
MK:
IGRASH = you play, nominative form from IGRA.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:27
Time for some old information.

iGENEA http://www.igenea.com/

Genealogy . What is this?
A DNA genealogical test shows you the haplogroup (going back 60,000 years ago), the ancient tribe your ancestors belonged to and where your ancestors came from 40 generations ago, which takes you back to the 11th / 13th centuries. You receive information about the maternal and paternal lines. DNA genealogy also allows you to locate "genetic cousins," i.e. persons who share a common ancestor with you. When you exchange information, like family trees, with your "genetic cousins",you expand your knowledge of your own family history.

DNA genealogy – how does it work?
Information is encoded into your genes (DNA) that today give indications of your history and your ancestors. By analysing certain parts of your DNA and comparing the results with those of other persons, it is possible to find out whether you and those persons have shared ancestry.

A antic macedonian genetic profile exists and has been discovered through the comparison of archaeological funds and persons with macedonian roots. These studies enable us to determine the macedonian roots of a person. We have 30% of macedonians in Macedonia, 20% in Greece and minorities in Bulgaria and Albania.

I would like to know the specific distinction of how the antic Macedonian gene, is different from the Hellenic gene?

Yes, but the difference is not so big. The Hellenic profile demands specific allelvalues from the Y-DYS in Locus 2-8 and the macedonian profil from locus 2-10. The genetic profile is nearly identical, but the antic macedonian demands two more mutations.



Genetic Differences Between Macedonians in Greece and the Greeks.
http://www.sciencemag.org/content/290/5494/1155.abstract
http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/ConciseMacedonia/Y_Hromosomes.pdf

In the genetic analysis published by the Science Magazine of the American Association for
the Advancement of Science, participated Macedonians from the Macedonian minority of
Northern Greece (Aegean Macedonia) and Greeks, among with other European nations.


HLA genes in Macedonians and the sub-Saharan origin of the Greeks.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11260506?dopt=Abstract
http://www.makedonika.org/processpaid.aspcontentid=ti.2001.pdf

Arnaiz-Villena A, Dimitroski K, Pacho A, Moscoso J, Gómez-Casado E, Silvera-Redondo C,
Varela P, Blagoevska M, Zdravkovska V, Martínez-Laso J.

Department of Immunology and Molecular Biology, H. 12 de Octubre, Universidad Complutense,
Madrid, Spain. [email protected]

HLA alleles have been determined in individuals from the Republic of Macedonia
by DNA typing and sequencing. HLA-A, -B, -DR, -DQ allele frequencies and extended
haplotypes have been for the first time determined and the results compared to those of other
Mediterraneans, particularly with their neighbouring Greeks. Genetic distances,
neighbor-joining dendrograms and correspondence analysis have been performed.
The following conclusions have been reached:

1) Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum,
like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese,
Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians,
2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks,
who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum
3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people,
which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
Both Greeks and Ethiopians share quasi-specific DRB1 alleles.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:35
And here are some Fake Greeks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_of_Albanian_origin
Greeks (of Arvanite origin)
Andreas Miaoulis
Markos Botsaris
Laskarina Bouboulina
Nikolaos Krieziotis
Xadziyiannis Mexis
Pavlos Kountouriotis
Kitsos Tzavelas
Georgios Kountouriotis
Antonios Kriezis
Dimitrios Voulgaris
Athanasios Miaoulis
Diomidis Kiriakos
Theodoros Pangalos
Petros Voulgaris
Alexandros Diomidis
Theodoros Pangalos
Nikos Engonopoulos
Ieronymos II

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:38
Differences Between The Ancient Macedonians and The Ancient Greeks by J.S. Gandeto

An impressive book on the differences between the two ancient nations - Macedonians and Greeks. "To understand the history of the ancient Macedonians, their ethnogenesis and their innermost drives as people, we need to analyze and comprehend, first and foremost, their deeply rooted material culture. Only by sifting meticulously through the thick layered strata of their rich culture can we discover and appreciate who this ancient people were. The rare glimpses into their intricate and deeply carved traditions afford us a window of luxury through which the plumage of their race emerges and becomes recognizable. Coupled with numerous anecdotes recorded and preserved through time and epitaphs that are impervious to politics and change, we now have a sizeable body of truth to know and believe that ancient Macedonians were, what they said they were—Macedonians" (from the publisher). "It is an illusion to think that ancient Macedonians were Greeks" (synopsis).
http://www.ancientmacedonia.com/gandeto.html

iapetoc
27-01-11, 01:40
oh god E-V13 somalian etiopean
J2 is from from levant
both that makes Greeks and albanians

stop bullshit and and listen i wrote a book about that
and I know even King Alexander the 4rth Y-dna
plz stop
if you want i can explain all in a letter
stop political propaganda
each you claim 1-1
but stop spam
send me 1 letter to expalin all about it
1-1 at the time
all have explanations
if you open your mind
and stop your spamming and propaganda

you write bullshit you understand? each has his explanation
read about berbers and Albanians it is the same

Istill dont understand what you are trying to prove?

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:41
The Flag Dispute between Greece and the Republic of Macedonia


Introduction
Official Greece accuses its northern neighbour, the Republic of Macedonia for "stealing the Ancient Greek heritage", which according to the Greek side also includes Ancient Macedonia and its symbols, one of them being the so called Sun of Vergina. The symbol was once used as an emblem on the flag of the Republic of Macedonia, which caused a dispute between the two countries (actually it was an unilateral protest from the Greek side).


Greece is so fast in accusing other nations for "stealing history" that she forgets that she is the one that actually stole a symbol of another nation- an old English flag:
http://spartaks.blogspot.com/2008/04/flag-dispute-greece-vs-republic-of.html

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:44
HERODOTUS

CONCLUSION

Among the Greeks there exist a common bond, a community of blood and language, temples and rituals and common customs. This expressed kinship between the Greek allies is evident and it stands in stark contrast against the references used towards the Macedonians who were addressed as foreigners. We have seen that Herodotus (7.130) speaks of the Thessalians as the first Greeks to come under Persian submission (although the Persians entered Macedonia first), and here he, using his own words clearly excludes the Macedonians from the ancient Greeks. We are therefore, left with the conclusion that Herodotus did not consider the Macedonians to be Greeks. As Borza had written, "Both Herodotus and Thucydides describe the Macedonians as foreigners, a distinct people living outside of the frontiers of the Greek city-states" � Eugene Borza, In the Shadow of Olympus p. 96.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:49
The Macedonian Lion, like the Macedonian Sun is yet another oldest European symbol that still survives as cultural symbol of the Macedonians. Lions used to dwell around Macedonia and the ancient historians have recorded this. The lion hunt was popular among the Macedonians and lion hunt scenes have found their place in the Macedonian art.

On August 2, 338 BC, the Macedonians defeated the Greeks at Chaeronea in central Greece and conquered their country. On the battlefiled they erected an impressive sculpture of a proud-standing lion. The same lion sculpture is also found in the Macedonian city of Amphipolis.

The Lion continued to be a Macedonian symbol even after the destruction of the Macedonian Empire and Kingdom in 168 BC.

The Macedonian Sun is undoubtedly the oldest symbol in the world that still survives as cultural symbol of the Macedonians. This 8-rayed and 16-rayed Macedonian Sun had been cherished by the Macedonians for over 3,000 years.

It appears on the coins, military equipment, and art of the ancient Macedonian kingdom, and continued to be National Insignia of the Macedonians throughout history to modern times. The Macedonian sun is found in the icons and frescoes in the churches throughout the whole territory of divided Macedonia, and speaks of volumes of tradition as the Macedonian nation had cherished it for centuries.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:50
In the course of the Middle Ages and in later periods the name of Macedonia can be found both in heraldry and itinerary literature. Macedonia is mentioned for the first time in the 1595 Korenich-Neorich rolls of arms, where the coat of arms of Macedonia is included among those of eleven other countries. As noted in detail by Aleksandar Matkovski, under the coat of arms is written "Macedonia", while above the arms in Cyrillic script is "Cimeri makedonske zemle" (the Coat of Arms of the Macedonian country). In the Korenich-Neorich rolls of arms, Macedonian arms are presented along with those of Croatia, Dalmatia, Bulgaria, Bosnia, the Duchagyni, and Kastrioti; in the 152 coats of arms depicted, the Macedonian coat of arms with the inscription "Macedonia" is included twice. The same rolls of arms includes the arms of King Dushan or of his son Urosh. This is a complex coat of arms, presenting these kings as symbols of the unity of the South Slavs and including the arms of nine Balkan regions: Macedonia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, the coastal countries, Slavonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Rascia. Note that Macedonia is presented as a separate region.

In 1605, an extensive rolls of arms was published in Hungary. Siebmacher, its author, included the coat of arms-an single-headed eagle on a white background-of "Macedoniani", a Macedonian family from southern Hungary. Since the 15th century there had been a group of Macedonian immigrants in Baranya, inhabiting a village called Macedonia. The family Macedoniani originated from this village, where Dancho of Macedonia came from as well. Dancho is mentioned as early as 1439 as a rich noblemen; his descendants Ladislav of Macedonia, Bishop of Veliki Varazhdin in 1533, and Volk of Macedonia, ban (governor) of Szörèny, are also noted.
One of the oldest preserved rolls of arms is that of Palinich, most likely prepared in the late 16th and early 17th century. The arms of Macedonia are included, with the hand-written Latin inscription "Macedonia regni" below it. The term Macedonia is also found in Althan's 1614 rolls of arms. Above the beautifully drawn Macedonian coat of arms is the Cyrillic inscription "Makedonske zemle cimeri" and below that, in Latin, "Insignia regni Macedonia". Among the most beautifully drawn Macedonian coats of arms is the one kept in the Museum of Applied Arts in Belgrade. This coat of arms, with the inscription "Macedoniae" belongs to the heraldry of King Dushan, along with arms of Illyria, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, Sklavonia, Bulgaria, Serbia and Rascia.

The Ohmuchevich family was known for its efforts to prove inheritance right over Bosnia and Macedonia. Over decades, the family tendered many claims to the territory, endeavoring to prove the rights of the Ohmuchevichs to large regions in the Balkans. They even printed coats of arms, wishing to prove their noble descent and their right to rule these large regions, Macedonia always taking the central place among them. Their enormous wealth made it possible for them to print heraldic collections and other books-which, regardless of the strength or validity of their claims to the territories-made the term "Macedonia" popular both in a geographical and an ethnic sense. The 1636 role of arms authored by Admiral Andriya Ohmuchevich and Marko Skoroevich argued that Macedonia and Bosnia could be liberated from Turkish rule only with the help of Vienna and the Hapsburgs. The Rolls of Arms of Marko Skoroevich was dedicated to Prince Ferdinand; though the young prince did not yet know to read, he could look at the "pictures" and by the help of the coats of arms grow familiar with the geographical terms and toponyms. The Macedonian coat of arms in this collection is included in a group of heraldries belonging to the South Slavic states, with the inscription "Insignia regni Macedonia" above it. On this coat of arms the lion is depicted standing rampant, yellow on a red background.

The term Macedonia is also written below the Macedonian arms in the 1675 Foynitsa rolls of arms, as well as in Du Cange's 1680 History of Byzantium, published in Paris. Macedonian coat of arms containing the inscription "Macedonia" can also be found in the 1689 Olovo rolls of arms in Bologna. The Berlin rolls of arms from the late 1wth century also includes the term Macedonia written in Latin below the coat of arms. and "Cimeri makedonske zemle" above.

In short, there are many records dating from the 17th century in which the term Macedonia is mentioned. It is also included in the handwritten 1694 stemmatographia of Pavle Riter Vitezovich: "Macedonia" is printed in Latin above the coat of arms. In the printed 1701 stemmatographia of Pavle Vitezovich, the inscription "Macedonia" is placed above the Macedonian coat of arms, while below there are four verses in Latin which tell that, in former times, the golden shields were symbols of imperial dignity, now replaced by a Turkish turbanned fez.
Hristofor Zhefarovich, the most prominent Balkan artist of the 18th century, was Macedonian-born, most likely in Doyran. He was educated in Greek schools, but he acquired his artistic knowledge in Thessaloniki and Ohrid. His Stemmatographia includes two rolls, one containing 56 coats of arms from all the Slavs and a second set of 20 containing South Slavic coats of arms. The Macedonian coat of arms is presented in both compositions with the inscription "Makedonia".

The term "Macedonia" is also written below the Macedonian coat of arms in the 1746 rolls of arms of Ivo Saraka and in the third volume of Jovan Raich's rolls of arms, printed in 1794. Each coat of arms is labeled: the Macedonian as "Macedoniae", the Serbian as "Serbia", the Bulgarian as "Bulgaria" and the Bosnian as "Bosna". The terms Macedonia and Macedonians were also recorded by travelers passing over its roads while travelling from East to West and vice versa, or while wandering over its territory. Historical misconceptions certainly had their effects on these travel accounts; the writers often named the Macedonians as Bulgarians, Serbs or Greeks.

But in many itineraries the terms Macedonia and Macedonians remained clearly distinguished from those for other Balkan states and other Balkan peoples. Thus, when the Venetian captain Angiolello passed through Macedonia and on August 13, 1470 recorded his stay on the Holy Mountain, he wrote that "there are many Christian monks, some of whom are Greeks, others Macedonians, Vlachs, and there are even Italians and people from other nations." Four days later, while camping by the mouth of the Mesta River, he noted that "there live Greeks and Macedonians."

An unknown author describes the Ohrid countryside, writing "Albania is the region which had been called Macedonia by the ancient peoples, i.e. it is a part of Macedonia, as Macedonia covers many countries and regions."
In the 15th century, Bertrando de la Brokier traveled through the Balkans and left behind an account of his travels. Among other things, he writes "...and I remembered the heavy oppression of the Turk over the emperor in Constantinople and over all Greeks, Macedonians and Bulgarians, and even over the Despot of Rascia [Rashka, as he referred to Gjuragj Brankovich] and all his subjects, which is very unfortunate for the all of Christianity.... And there are many Christians who are forced to serve the Turk, like the Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Esklavonians, Rascians and Serbians...".

In 1461, some time after Brokier's travels through the Balkans, the Venician commissioner to Rome, Paulus Maurocenus, made plans to drive the Turks out of the Balkans: "...When the enemy forces are crushed, no one will ever doubt that all of Bulgaria, Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Epirus, Thessaly, Greece or Athens, and Peloponnesus...".

DejaVu
27-01-11, 01:51
In his 1547 itinerary of southern Macedonia, Pierre Bellon discourses on the Holy Mountain, the mines in Siderokapsa and Kavalla, and frequently refers to the region as Macedonia.

In his writings of 1573, the French traveler Philip du Fresne-Canais notes: "I saw a large plain at the beginning of which Skopje is located, hidden by small hills, a very big town which, according to some, is in Bulgaria, but according to my opinion is in Macedonia...".
In 1566 Yakov of Macedonia, a printer and a writer, left for Venice. There he printed a number of liturgical texts and other writings in the printing house of the Montenegrin voivoda (commander) Bozhidar Vukovich. In the preface to one of the liturgies he writes : "...I took great effort in making this work and in making holy books, for a long time and for many years... I came out from Macedonia, my homeland, and entered the Western countries...".
The printing of geographical maps stimulated the wider use of the term Macedonia. Many centuries passed from the first maps of Ptolemy, in which Ancient Macedonia is presented, to Peutinger's table, a maritime map depicting the coastline along the Aegean coast drafted by the Ottoman admiral and cartographer Pyrireis, to the map of the Macedonians in St. Petersburg. One of the more realistic geographical maps of Macedonia is Gastaldi's 1560 map published in Venice. It is there that certain Macedonian place names are adopted for the first time by the West: the Vardar River, Skopje, Mt. Skopska Crna Gora, Tikvesh Valley, Demir Kapiya, Bitola, Kratovo, Struga, Ohrid and Ohrid Lake, Prespa and Prespa Lake, Prilep, Kostur, Lerin, Voden and Resen.
The Mercator map (Duisburg, 1589) and Laurenberg map (Amsterdam, 1647) followed Gastaldi's lead in giving some inhabited sites both their ancient and their contemporary Macedonian names, such as Lychnidos/Ohrid and Edessa/Voden. In Rome, G. Cantelli da Vigniola published a 1689 map which shows-with slight deviations-the territory of Macedonia and its geographical borders. Though map contains many errors, it for the first time marks the towns of Tetovo, Kumanovo, Katlanovo, Veles, Debar, Kavalla, Ber and Enije Vardar. Only seven years later, in Paris, N. Senson detailed Macedonia in a number of 1696 maps. These were followed by the maps of G. de L'Isle (Paris, 1707), Homann (1717), Harenberg (Nuernberg, 1741), S. Jenvier (Paris, 1750), A. Lapie (Paris, 1843), the Map of European Turkey (Belgrade, 1853), the commercial map of the province of Macedonia (Paris, 1885), and a "Map of Macedonia" by Dimitrija Chupovski (St. Petersburg, 1913) in which Macedonia is shown in its geographical and ethnic borders. On all these maps Macedonia is clearly labeled as Macedonia.

http://www.samostan.ba/photos/displayimage.php?pid=59&fullsize=1
http://www.samostan.ba/photos/displayimage.php?pid=58&fullsize=1

DejaVu
27-01-11, 02:07
Greeks crying to Obama.


Letter to President Barack Obama

The Honorable Barack Obama

President, United States of America

White House

1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW

Washington, DC 20500





Dear President Obama,

We, the undersigned scholars of Graeco-Roman antiquity, respectfully request that you intervene to clean up some of the historical debris left in southeast Europe by the previous U.S. administration.

On November 4, 2004, two days after the re-election of President George W. Bush, his administration unilaterally recognized the “Republic of Macedonia.” This action not only abrogated geographic and historic fact, but it also has unleashed a dangerous epidemic of historical revisionism, of which the most obvious symptom is the misappropriation by the government in Skopje of the most famous of Macedonians, Alexander the Great.

We believe that this silliness has gone too far, and that the U.S.A. has no business in supporting the subversion of history. Let us review facts. (The documentation for these facts [here in boldface] can be found attached and at: http://macedonia-evidence.org/documentation.html (https://www.flashback.org/leave.php?u=http%3A%2F%2Fmacedonia-evidence.org%2Fdocumentation.html))

The land in question, with its modern capital at Skopje, was called Paionia in antiquity. Mts. Barnous and Orbelos (which form today the northern limits of Greece) provide a natural barrier that separated, and separates, Macedonia from its northern neighbor. The only real connection is along the Axios/Vardar River and even this valley “does not form a line of communication because it is divided by gorges.”

While it is true that the Paionians were subdued by Philip II, father of Alexander, in 358 B.C. they were not Macedonians and did not live in Macedonia. Likewise, for example, the Egyptians, who were subdued by Alexander, may have been ruled by Macedonians, including the famous Cleopatra, but they were never Macedonians themselves, and Egypt was never called Macedonia.

Rather, Macedonia and Macedonian Greeks have been located for at least 2,500 years just where the modern Greek province of Macedonia is. Exactly this same relationship is true for Attica and Athenian Greeks, Argos and Argive Greeks, Corinth and Corinthian Greeks, etc.

We do not understand how the modern inhabitants of ancient Paionia, who speak Slavic – a language introduced into the Balkans about a millennium after the death of Alexander – can claim him as their national hero. Alexander the Great was thoroughly and indisputably Greek. His great-great-great grandfather, Alexander I, competed in the Olympic Games where participation was limited to Greeks.

Even before Alexander I, the Macedonians traced their ancestry to Argos, and many of their kings used the head of Herakles - the quintessential Greek hero - on their coins.

Euripides – who died and was buried in Macedonia– wrote his play Archelaos in honor of the great-uncle of Alexander, and in Greek. While in Macedonia, Euripides also wrote the Bacchai, again in Greek. Presumably the Macedonian audience could understand what he wrote and what they heard.

Alexander’s father, Philip, won several equestrian victories at Olympia and Delphi, the two most Hellenic of all the sanctuaries in ancient Greece where non-Greeks were not allowed to compete. Even more significantly, Philip was appointed to conduct the Pythian Games at Delphi in 346 B.C. In other words, Alexander the Great’s father and his ancestors were thoroughly Greek. Greek was the language used by Demosthenes and his delegation from Athens when they paid visits to Philip, also in 346 B.C. Another northern Greek, Aristotle, went off to study for nearly 20 years in the Academy of Plato. Aristotle subsequently returned to Macedonia and became the tutor of Alexander III. They used Greek in their classroom which can still be seen near Naoussa in Macedonia.

Alexander carried with him throughout his conquests Aristotle’s edition of Homer’s Iliad. Alexander also spread Greek language and culture throughout his empire, founding cities and establishing centers of learning. Hence inscriptions concerning such typical Greek institutions as the gymnasium are found as far away as Afghanistan. They are all written in Greek.

The questions follow: Why was Greek the lingua franca all over Alexander’s empire if he was a “Macedonian”? Why was the New Testament, for example, written in Greek?

The answers are clear: Alexander the Great was Greek, not Slavic, and Slavs and their language were nowhere near Alexander or his homeland until 1000 years later. This brings us back to the geographic area known in antiquity as Paionia. Why would the people who live there now call themselves Macedonians and their land Macedonia? Why would they abduct a completely Greek figure and make him their national hero?

The ancient Paionians may or may not have been Greek, but they certainly became Greekish, and they were never Slavs. They were also not Macedonians. Ancient Paionia was a part of the Macedonian Empire. So were Ionia and Syria and Palestine and Egypt and Mesopotamia and Babylonia and Bactria and many more. They may thus have become “Macedonian” temporarily, but none was ever “Macedonia”. The theft of Philip and Alexander by a land that was never Macedonia cannot be justified.

The traditions of ancient Paionia could be adopted by the current residents of that geographical area with considerable justification. But the extension of the geographic term “Macedonia” to cover southern Yugoslavia cannot. Even in the late 19th century, this misuse implied unhealthy territorial aspirations.

The same motivation is to be seen in school maps that show the pseudo-greater Macedonia, stretching from Skopje to Mt. Olympus and labeled in Slavic. The same map and its claims are in calendars, bumper stickers, bank notes, etc., that have been circulating in the new state ever since it declared its independence from Yugoslavia in 1991. Why would a poor land-locked new state attempt such historical nonsense? Why would it brazenly mock and provoke its neighbor?

However one might like to characterize such behavior, it is clearly not a force for historical accuracy, nor for stability in the Balkans. It is sad that the United States of America has abetted and encouraged such behavior.

We call upon you, Mr. President, to help - in whatever ways you deem appropriate - the government in Skopje to understand that it cannot build a national identity at the expense of historic truth. Our common international society cannot survive when history is ignored, much less when history is fabricated.



Sincerely,

DejaVu
27-01-11, 02:10
Minority Violation

Human Rights Watch Report on Greece.
http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/203/9/

U.S. Department of State's Human Rights Report on Greece.
http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2006/78815.htm

MHRMI 2008 Annual Report on Greece.
http://mhrmi.org/news/2008/january27b_e.asp

European Free Alliance
http://www.e-f-a.org/home.php

21.05.09 Bulgarian authorities confiscate electoral materials RAINBOW party (21/05/2009)
Lack of democracy in Greece and Bulgaria.

The Bulgarian authorities already for several days have confiscated DVD's made in Bulgaria. The DVD's for unclarified reasons cannot cross the border in order to be used by the Party Rainbow in it's campaign for the European elections. Rainbow represents the Macedonian minority in Greece. The DVD contain information on the peacefull political struggle of the Macedonian (ignored and denied) minority in Greece. The Bulgarian authorities already since 2005 refuse to implement a European court of human rights decision to register the party Omo Ilinden Pirin. This party represents the Macedonian minority in Bulgaria. Both members states Bulgaria and Greece deny the existence of such minorities. The evidence of such existence fi the DVD's cannot see the light of day and therefore... are confiscated.

"Greece vigorously denies the existence of any ethnic minorities on its territory and attempts to suppress any voices that advocate human rights. Simply raising the issue of the Macedonian minority in Greece causes Greek citizens and politicians alike to react in outrage. The majority of Greek society supports its government's non-recognition and discrimination of its large Macedonian minority", said MHRMI president Bill Nicholov.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 02:30
All others are referring to are different, the Serbs and FYROM Macedonians are most similar to each other.

I will give you pictures of some analysis and you can watch.

And analysis showed that even Montenegrins are more different.

And now look at the census in Yugoslavia, 1924.


http://img109.imageshack.us/img109/2708/census.jpg

Only Serbs no Macedonians and the census was entirely legal, accordance with European criteria at the time.

Macedonians appear after World War II when the Communists came to power, and it can be easilly checked in the history.

Who are the others that state that? The Fake Proto-Serbs?
The worst occupants of all that occupied Macedonia, thats what Macedonians say.
"Macedonians was forced to learn Serbian in schools to be fake serbs. Serbs forgot who gave them the language, church and more."

Maybe this idiot: Vojislav Seselj: Macedonia, Montenegro, Dubrovnik is SERBIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZHKvAJNZqg


"The census was legal and thats why the king got shot?"
The Assassination of the Yugoslavian king Alexander
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrruCOZwxKA

Song about Vlado Chernosemski

True and extraordinary
but the extraordinary happens,
In a far away city of Marseilles
there are united autonomists
and brother Croatians.
Now a king departs
on a luxury ship,
from the town of Dubrovnik
and he sleeps peacefully
while he sails the wide ocean
and destiny waits in Marseilles.

There he is honoured
by Minister Barthou
and his mighty generals;
where they all gather
to hold a council of war
against poor Macedonia.

The people they gather
the crowds enormous
and they chant "long may he live"
but from the crowd
a lone voice is heard
"Death to the tyrant".

For there stands also
Vlado Chernozemski
all the way from Macedonia,
he starts to run
alongside the automobile
in his hand a pistol is seen.

King Alexander
starts to plead
and to Vlado he begs:
"please Vlado,
don't do this Vlado,
don't kill me".

to the King Vlado replies
proud and true,
understand this you tyrant,
I've been sent by
Vancho Mihailoff himself
to deliver our verdict.

Now stand up, stand up
you Serbian dog
I'm going to execute you.
the pistol fires
the King he expires
long live Macedonia!

Let it be known,
known and remembered
throughout all of Europe,
that the Macedonians'
oppression will not be forgiven
Death to all tyrants!

Elias2
27-01-11, 03:21
If anything, this macedonian dispute highlights why communism is evil. Tito is dead but his zombies still walk the earth, it's like a bad horror movie.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 03:25
Y-DNA
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups_by_region.shtml


Albania
I1 2%
I2a 12%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 9%
R1b 16%
G2a 1,5%
J2 19,5%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27,5%
T 1%

Bulgaria
I1 3%
I2a 20%
I2b 1%
R1a 18%
R1b 18%
G2a 1%
J2 20%
E1b1b 16%
T 1%
Q 1%

Greece
I1 4%
I2a 10%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 12%
R1b 12%
G2a 3,5%
J2 25%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27%
T 3%

Macedonia
I1 10%
I2a 18%
R1a 13,5%
R1b 13,5%
G2a 4%
J2 12%
E1b1b 23%
T 4%

Serbia
I1 6,5%
I2a 34,5%
I2b 0,5%
R1a 15%
R1b 7%
G2a 1,5%
J2 6,5%
J1 0,5%
E1b1b 20,5%
T 3%
Q 1%
N1c1 2%

DejaVu
27-01-11, 03:31
"Greece vigorously denies the existence of any ethnic minorities on its territory and attempts to suppress any voices that advocate human rights. Simply raising the issue of the Macedonian minority in Greece causes Greek citizens and politicians alike to react in outrage. The majority of Greek society supports its government's non-recognition and discrimination of its large Macedonian minority", said MHRMI president Bill Nicholov.

Garrick
27-01-11, 03:40
Dejavu you did not notice that you rejoice the death of one man, and he was King of Yugoslavia.

And I'll tell you another thing, after the war the communists, in an effort to all the Serbs in Macedonia forget who they are, changed surnames.

So people had to surnames named to the ic after the war changed to ski and a lot of people had to learn Macedonian language, which the Communists have declared mandatory 1945.

Not to mention that the Serbian heroes from the Middle Ages became the Macedonians.

And so on.

And I know because I have a lot connected with Macedonia, though I must say that many Macedonians today like Serbs and considered themselves close with Serbs.

Despite all the politics.

Personally all people are dear to me, I do not care whether they are Serbs or Macedonians, or anyone else, all people regardless of ethnicity or race have their qualities, strengths and abilities.

I believe that communism is a false ideology, but well, I can not stop people to be communists if they want, but it can be noted that Eastern Europe has progressed from the time the two decades ago when communist system replaced.

Elias2
27-01-11, 03:41
@dejavu

Considering there is the rainbow political party representing them (FYROM's), and they get less votes each time, I think that statement is bull. I know you don't like greeks because they expose the frauds of FYROM.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 03:44
Surnames with ending -ic -ov -ski existed all the time and that have nothing to do with Serbia. Mostly of the people changed to -ski because of the claiming nationality from Serbia and Bulgaria.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 03:53
I got no problem or dislike any nationality got friends from all around the world. Even here on the forum I dont dislike anyone even if its aggressive behaviour.

Garrick
27-01-11, 04:00
Surnames with ending -ic -ov -ski existed all the time and that have nothing to do with Serbia. Mostly of the people changed to -ski because of the claiming nationality from Serbia and Bulgaria.

Dejavu
You are not well informed, people after the war, due to pressure and orders Communists had to change last letters surnames:

ić (often in the Serb)

in the

ski (more is Macedonian)

and that was massive in Macedonia.

But there are people who remember what their parents told them and some even kept birth certificates before the war their families.

At the end of the end as a last name does not mean that one is better or worse person, but I say this only because a reminder of some of repression by the Communists after the war did.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 04:11
Make a research before guessing. Who is not well informed, me or you?

April 26th, 1690
Letter of protection from Leopold I. ...This is to inform you that two Macedonians, Marko Kraida born in Kosana and Dimitri Georgi Popovic, born in Macedonian Salonika, have told us that the Macedonian people, with respect for our most righteous task, with devotion and zeal towards our service....we graciously accept them under our imperial and royal mercy and in any case and way the above mantioned Macedonian people, cordially recommending to each and all of our willing commanders not to attack the Macedonian people....Issued in Vienna, April 26th, 1690. Representatives: defenders of the Macedonian people.... J. Radonic, Prilozi za istoriju Srba u Ungarskoj u XVI, XVII and XVIII veku. Knj. I, Matice srpske, nbr 25 and 26, Novi Sad 1908, p. 52-53.

Elias2
27-01-11, 04:21
In 1690 there was no macedonian people. Orthodox christians in the Ottoman empire were known as Romans (Rum in turkish), and they also called themselves Romans. So that whole paragraph is fake. Keep posting your propaganda and I will keep shooting it down.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 04:27
Are you saying that there was no Greeks? Then you are a Roman change back your identity.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 04:29
Documents of the Continued Existence of Macedonia and the Macedonian Nation for a period of over 2500 years
What follows are documents that speak of the continued existence of Macedonia and of the Macedonian nation through the last 25 centuries. Macedonia is clearly distinguished from Greece (Hellas), Thrace, Illyria, Bulgaria, Serbia, and the Macedonians are likewise distinguished as distinct nation from the Greeks, Thracians, Illyrians, Bulgarians, Serbs, Albanians, as nation which continued to exist and survive trough the centuries (makedonika.org).
500 B.C. - 500 A.D.
Macedonia and the Macedonians as distinct nation in the works of the ancient Greek, Roman, and Jewish historians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/AncientEvidence.html), as well in the works of the modern German, French, English, American historians (http://www.historyofmacedonia.org/AncientMacedonia/ModernHistorians.html).
586 A.D.
From the "Miracles of St. Demetrius of Salonika, I ": "...For if one was to imagine them in a heap, not only the Macedonians gathered in Salonika... Certainly he who inspired the Macedonians with courage..." Mirac. I, 13, p.1285-14; 1313
758-759 A.D.
From the Chronographia of Theophanes the Confessor "That year Constantine plundered the Sclavinii throughout Macedonia and subjugated the rest." Theoph., I, p.430, 21-22.
From the Chronographia Tripertita by Anastasius Bibliothecarius: "In the eighteenth year of his reign, Constantine enslaved the Sclavinii of Macedonia and he subjugated the rest." A. B., p.282, 20-21.
8th Century
From Strabonos Epithomatus: "And now, in that way almost all of Epirus, Hellada, the Peloponnese and Macedonia have also been settled by the Skiti-Slavs." C. Muller, Geographi graeci minores, Paris 1882, p.574.
821-823 A.D.
From the letter of Michael II to the honorable Ludwig: "Thomas...having gathered our barges and dromon, had the opportunity to arrive in (some) parts of Thrace and Macedonia." Mansi, Michaelis Belbi et Theophilii....Florentinae, 1759
904
From On the Capture of Salonika by John Cametinae: "...I introduce you to the same, the great and the first city of the Macedonians..." J.K. Begunov, Kozma Prezviter v slavjanskih literaturah, Sofia 1976, p. 297
First half of 10th C.
From On the Themes by Constantine Porphyrogenitus: "... So from a kingdom Macedonia turned into a province and now it has reached the position of a theme and strategy." C. Porfirogenito, De thematibus, Citta del Vaticano, 1952.
986
From the History of Leo the Deacon: "...since they robbed the region of the Macedonians mercilessly, destroying all adults.". Leonis Diaconi Historiae, Paris 1864, p. 311.
1041
From the Annals of Bari: "...he had already written to Sicily from where the unfortunate Macedonians, Paulicians and Calbrians arrived." G.H. Pertz, Annales Barenses, Monumenta Germaniae historica, Scriptores V, p.53.
1064
From the Chronicle of John Zonaras: "The Uzians...invaded Macedonia and plundered it, and reached Hellada". Ioannis Zonorae Epitomae historiarum, Vol. VIII, Ed. Th. Buttner-Wobst, Bonnae 1897, p.678.
1072-1073
From the History of Necephorus Vryenius: "...for the Scythians were carrying out sudden attacks in Thrace and Macedonia." Nicephori Bryenii commentarii, Ed. A. Meicke, Bonnae 1836, p.100, 102.
1083-1085
From De expeditione Yerosolymitana by Radulfo Cadonis: "...Beomund Guiscard sailed across the Adriatic and occupied Macedonia." Tancredi in expeditione Yerosolymitana ....Paris, 1854, p.499.
c. 1106
From the letter of Theophylactes of Ohrid to Gregorius Camaterus: "...do not retain such a man in the narrow regions of our Macedonia...". Theophylacti, col. 496, B-C.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 04:29
Beginning of 12th Century
From the Byzantine satire Timarion: "The day of Saint Demetrius in (Salonika) is as great a festival as the Panathinei in Athens or Panionii in Miletus; it is a grand Macedonian celebration in which not only the Macedonian people gather, but people of all sorts and from all directions: Greeks from different regions of Hellada, the Mizian tribes...". Vizantiiski Vremenik, Moscow VI 1953, p. 367.
1185
"Woe, woe, the city of Salonika is captured, I say, the metropolis of the Macedonians." Ephraimi Chronologici caesares; Ed. J.P. Migne - PG 143 , Paris 1891, p.198.
Beginning of 13th C.
From the synod records of the Ohrid Archibishopric: "Ioannis Ierakar by birth Macedonian". J. Pitra, Analacta sacra et classica specilegio Solesmensi parta, t. VI Juris ecclesiastici graecorum selecta paralipomena. Parissis et Romae 1891, col. 315.
1246
Ser was one a large city, but the Bulgarian Ivan had demolished when besieging it and other Macedonian cities. Georgii Acropolitae Opera, Recensuit A. Haisenberg vol. I, Lipsiae 1903, p.74-75, 77
1282-1321
...that king's alliance is certain and unanswering, just as long as he can settle near to Macedonia. While he was spending his time on these (matters), the protostrator Theodore Sinadinus, once freed from the West, arrived in Byzantium. He governed Prilep, the neighbouring regions and the lower Macedonian towns. Ioan Cantacuzeni Historiarum libri IV, Ed. J.P.Migne - PG Paris 1866, p.94
1305
At the battle of Apros in 1305 there were five syntaxeis, differentiated by ethnicity: the Alans and Tourkopouloi in the van, followed by the Macedonians, the Anatolians, the Vlach infantry and the Thelematarioi. The Late Byzantine Army. Mark C. Bartusis 1992. p.256
1326
...I beleive you know that Strimon...is the largest of all those that biscet Thrace and Macedonia... Nicephore Gregoras, Correspondence. Paris 1927, p.30-50.
Middle 14th C.
...Stefan became king of the Tribals. After he had set off from the region of the Ionian Sea, he razed Epidamnus to the ground, went into Macedonia and made Skopje the capital... The king left the city of Skopje, taking with him men experienced in battle and a strong army and subordinated to his rule the places in the vicinity of Kastoria. Then having moved camp, he subjugated all of Macedonia, except for Terma... Laonici Chalcocondiae Historiarum. Ed. J. P. Migne - PG t.CLIX (Paris, 1866) col. 36, B-37, C.
1349
(Code of) the honorable and Christ-loving Macedonian Tsar Stefan, Serbian, Bulgarian, Hungarian, Dalmation, Arbanasian, Hungarian Wallachian and indipendent ruler of many other regions and lands... Lj. Stojanovic, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi. Knj. III, Beograd 1905, p. 41 (nbr.4949).
Middle of the 14th C.
A Slav inscription from the church of St. George at Upper Kozjak in which a man called Bratan signs himself as being from Macedonia. Z. Rosolkovska-Nikolovska, Crkvata Sv. Georgi vo Goren Kozjak vo svetlinata na novite ispituvanja - Zbornik "Kiril Solunski", Kn. I, Skopje, MANU 1970, p. 222.
15th C.
I remember the great subordination under which the Turk holds the emperor in Constantinople and all the Greeks, Macedonians and Bulgarians....As I said earlier, there are many Christians who are forced to serve the Turk, such as Greeks, Bulgarians, Macedonians, Albanians, Esclavinians, Rasians and Serbians... Bertrand de la Brocuiere, Putovanje preko mora, Beograd 1950, p.134-135, 140-141.
13th Century - 15th Century
Byzantine historians of the Palaiologan period (13th Century - 15th Century) rarely make any distinction more specific then "Thrace" and "Macedonia". Thus we read of the "Thracians" and "Macedonians", the "Thracian and Macedonian armies", the "army" or "forces from Thrace and Macedonia"… For these historians the border between the two areas was the Nestos River or Kavalla. To the west was Macedonia to the east was Thrace. The Late Byzantine Army. Mark C. Bartusis 1992. p.65
1461-1462
When the enemy forces are battered, no one doubts that the whole of Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, Epirus, Thessaly, Greece or Attica and the Peloponnese will return to the faithful....Inspired by this example the Thessalians, the Greeks, the Poloponnesians, the Epirans and the Macedonians will all rebel and will win ... Jovan Radonic, Gjurac Kastriot Skenderbeg i Arbanija u XV veku - Spomenik XCV (1942), p. 128-129.
August 8th, 1470.
The Sultan stopped and spent the night ...in afield that represented the Macedonian border...The River Vardar is nearby, which flows through Macedonia...of which some are Greeks, others Macedonians, Wallachs and even Italians, as well as other nations....Greeks and Macedonians live there... Gio Mario degli Angiolelo, A. Matkovski i P. Angelkova, Nekolku kratki patopisi za Makedonija, Glasnik na INI, VXI/1 (1972), p. 246-247.
1557
...It is located in Thessaly, which borders on Macedonia, where the plague has reduced much of the population... Nbljudeni na mnozhestvo redki i zabelezhitelni neshta, videni v Grcija, Azija, Judea, Egipet, Arabia i drugi chuzhdi strani ot Pierre Belon d'Man, Sofia 1953, p.132-133; Frenski patepisi za Balkanite, XV-XVIII v. Sofia 1975, p. 95-98.
1566
...called Jakov; I laboured for much time and many years for this work (in order to contribute) to the holy books. I came out of Macedonia, my fatherland, and I entered.... Lj. Stojanovich, Stari srpski zapisi i natpisi I, p. 203-204.
1579
German ruler Rudolph II to the Pope: ..the deliverer of this letter, don Petar Crnovic...born in Salonika and the other parts of Macedonia... A. Theiner, Vitera monumenta Slavorum meridionalium illustrantia. II. Zagrabiae 1875, p. 70.
1589
Gavril, Archbishop of Ohrid to Archduke Ferdinand of Habsburg: ...the Turk, who from day to day has pursued and blackmailed us and our ancestors ....in the whole of Macedonia, Greece and the nearby countries...then among our countries we have Bulgaria, Serbia, Macedonia, Oltenia... Landesregierungsarchive - Innsbruck, VI 50.
1593
Project by Alexander Komulovic to expel the Ottomans from the Balkans ...In other parts of Epirus and Macedonia almost all are Christians of the Greek ritual... Biblioth. Barberiana cod. mnc. LVIII, 33, - Starine (Zagreb), Knj. XIV (1882), p. 86-87.
August 11th, 1607
The Duke of Savoy, Charles Emmanuel I, sends his own man of trust to Macedonia. ...who had arrived from Albania and Macedonia... V. Makrusev, Istoriski spomenici Juznih Slovena i okolnih naroda, Beograd 1882, p. 297-299.
April 6-24, 1618
(Senato Secreta. 337. Macedonia) ...The nobility of Macedon do not wish to have anything to do with the king of Spain... Calendar of State Papers and Manuscripts relating to English Affairs existing in the Archives and Collections of Venice and other libraries in Northern Italy, London 1864, Vol XV, p. 201-202.
1624
A letter from Pope Urban VIII to the Archbishop of Ohrid, Porphyrius Palaelogus To the respected brothers Porphyrius Paleologus, Patriarch of Justiniana Prima of Ohrid and the other subordinate archbishops, bishops of Bulgaria, Serbia, Albania and of the other side of Macedonia. A. Theiner, Vetera monumenta Slavorum II, (Zagrebiae 1875), p. 123.
1690
Manifesto of the Austrian Emperor Leopold I to the Nations of the Balkans ...Therefier we kindly call all the people who live throughout Albania, Servia, Mysia, Bulgaria, Silistria, Illyria, Macedonia and Rashka... J. Radonjic and M. Kostic, Srpske privilegije od 1690 do 1792. SAN, Posebna izdanja CCXXV, Beograd 1954, p. 26-27.
April 26th, 1690
Letter of protection from Leopold I. ...This is to inform you that two Macedonians, Marko Kraida born in Kosana and Dimitri Georgi Popovic, born in Macedonian Salonika, have told us that the Macedonian people, with respect for our most righteous task, with devotion and zeal towards our service....we graciously accept them under our imperial and royal mercy and in any case and way the above mantioned Macedonian people, cordially recommending to each and all of our willing commanders not to attack the Macedonian people....Issued in Vienna, April 26th, 1690. Representatives: defenders of the Macedonian people.... J. Radonic, Prilozi za istoriju Srba u Ungarskoj u XVI, XVII and XVIII veku. Knj. I, Matice srpske, nbr 25 and 26, Novi Sad 1908, p. 52-53.
1704
The French treveller and writer Paul Luca on Macedonia ...and hour after midnight for Kavalla, which is six miles away and once was a large Macedonian city by the sea coast. We should note that almost all the villages in Macedonia are full of Christians and there are few Turks. A. Matkovski and P. Angelakova, Patuvanjata na francuskiot petepisec Pol Luka niz Makedonija od 1704 do 1714-Istorija v/2 (1969). p. 101.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 04:30
End of 18th C.
Reports by the French Consul in Salonika, Felix de Beaujour, about Macedonia. The pashalik of Salonika includes the whole of Lower Macedonia and covers 700 sq. miles....it must be noted that here I am only speaking about the most populated part of Macedonia; since Upper Macedonia and Epirus are less populated....In Macedonia, as in Poland, the peasants die from hunger, while the masters live in abundance of gold... Felix de Beaujour, Voyage militaire dans l'Empire Othoman, I, Paris 1829, p. 127-128. n.1; p.130, 132.
1821
Macedonians pertecipate in the Romanian uprising ...At that time there was a man they called Sludzar Todor who urged all the foreigners (mostly Macedonians) to rebel against the boyar... Marko K. Cepenkov, Makedonsko narodno tvoreshtvo, Kn. X, Skopje 1972, p.308
1846
...I learnt the Slav alphabet from my father Makedonski, who calls himself so because we are Macedonians, and not Greeks.... Georgija Makedonski, Bogosluzhbena kniga "Opshti minej" - vo crkvata vo s. Radibush, Kriva Palanka, posledna nepagirana stranica.
1851
Bulgarian Comments on the language of J.H. Dzinot ...May the inhabitants of Skopje and those who speak similarly forgive me, but they do not understand our language and cannot speak either... "Bolgarski", Tsarigradski Vestnik, nbr. 55 (6.X.1851, p. 19).
1858
Education in Veles ....Archbishop Antim declared to his peers that all peoples have been enlightened by the Greeks and so it is necessary that Greek should be taught in the schools of Veles, and not Macedonian, since the children alrady know their own language from their home... J. N. Iz Velesa u Makedoniji: Srbski Dnevnik, nbr. 44 (1858) (according to Branislav Vraneshevic, Vojvodinska javnost, p. 320-321).
1865
A note from the priest Demetrius: In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, I, priest Demetrius, was born in the village of Ogut, in the Kriva Palanka region. and held the services in my native village, when in the year of our Lord 1848, the champions of the town of Kriva Palanka employed me as a priest against the will of His Grace, the Greek priest Kir Gavrail. Mr. Mikhail Makedonski interceded most in favor of my appointment, because I'm a Macedonian by birth and hold the services in the Slav language. Such was the Fate of my fatherland Macedonia, to suffer from the Greeks, so that they will not give us peace even today, although everyone knows that Macedonia is an older state then their kingdom. We had our own Slav educators, Cyril and Methodius, who left us our Slav alphabet. They were Macedonians born in Salonika, the glorious capital of Macedonia. Our Greek bishop does not admit this, so we do not want him to be our priest, but we want to have our own arch-priest, a Slav, for time everlasting. Amen. Zapis vo knigata Zitie Svetih vo Krivopalaneckata crkva. Pretposledna nepagirana strana.
January 28, 1867
To the Editor of "Makedonija" newspaper: ...The Greeks and the greacomans have met the newspaper with sorrow, since they always tried to hellenize the Macedonians, destroying also the Archibishopric of Ohrid -The Spark of Our Future. Yet, however hard they have tried to stop us from making progress, they could not entirely uproot the feelings of the Macedonians that they are Macedonians. T.I. Kusev, Makedonija, Istanbul, Nbr. I (1/28/1867)
March 25, 1870
...lets us consider those of the present Macedonians who blinded by concealed glow of Hellenic wisdom, accept that they should scorn and revoke their own nationality...the time seems opportune for me to exclaim:Ah, how far away the time really is when Hellas, as everybody calls her today, was subjected to Macedonian authority... Stefan Zahariev, Chitalishte, Istanbul, I/7, 1871, p.214-216.
November 30, 1870
...A teacher named Mr. Shapkarevic...has come to visit me...the same day the books you had sent me...arrived. But as soon as he saw them he said that they should not be taught in the Macedonian schools, since they were in the Bulgarian dialect; and that we should take his books which are in the Macedonian dialect... Pravo of 10/30/1870 (according to B. Koneski, Kon Makedonskata prerodba, p.68).
February 1874
A letter from P.R. Slaveykov to the Bulgarian Exarch: Your Grace, I arrived in Salonika on the evening of the 14th of last month (January 1874). I immediately went to meet all the important local people and some others from the other Macedonian towns. My aim was to gather information as son as possible on what was to be necessary for the succes of the mission with which you had entrusted me. I first met Father Averkij Zografski, and the following day Father Petar Dimitrov as well, the local president of the community. I may inform you, Your Grace, that the wind from here, from Salonika, blows and scatters to all sides. These two clergyman, to my mind, are the leaders of the movement fot the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid, although one should not neglect Ohrid and to certain extent Bitola, Veles and Skopje either. The Uniate movement here is not without roots, as they think in Constantinople, especially His Grace, Count Ignatiev. During the time I have been in Macedonia I have ascertained the same we had formerly known and written three years ago. Now, as then or twenty years ago, we are dealing with the Macedonian question. In talks with few Macedonian "patriots" I have understood that this movement, which had been only bare words till a few years ago, is now clear and precise thought - "The Macedonians are not Bulgarians" and they persistenly strive, regardless of the price, to obtain a separate church of their own.
They also have the support in their separatism of smoe high clergyman in Constantinople, especially His Grace Nathaniel Ohridski, Panariot Plovdivski, and Archimandrite Hariton Karpuzov. I have understood this month from reliable sources that there are letters which arrive every day from Constantinople to the Salonika community, and are then sent to the other communities in the provinces. The letters are written in this spirit. One such letter, which the Salonika community sent to the community of Voden, calls upon the inhabitants of Voden to break off all their relations with theExarchate until the Macedonian Church question is settled, because "now is the moment". Mr. Kuzman Shapkarev from Ohrid, who is well known to us, has done a great deal to spread the idea of the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid; he consatnly travels between Kukish and Ohrid and v.v., but at whose expanse, I do not know. Mr. Dimitar Makedonski, "the Macedonian textbook writer", is no less active, reciving salary as a teacher from the Exarchate and from local Lazarists.
Owing to such unreasonable sermons by the Macedonian patriots that the church question has been settled only in favor of the Bulgarians, there is discontent among the people towrds the eparchies of th4 Danube and Adrianople vilayets as well as envy because of the earlier awakening of the Bulgarians. One can especially feel a great resistance against the East Bulgarian variant in literature. A general impression is that the local people think that the Macedonians have been done a great harm with the settlement of the church question in favor of the Danubian and Thracian Bulgarians. This discontent has already grown into distrust of the Exarchate and its higher echalons. and there is an attitude formed that the local Macedonian dialect should be declared a literary language and a Macedonian hiearchy established.
Great attention, Your Grace, should be paid to His Grace Nathaniel, who promised the local people taht as soon as he comes to his eparchy he will take steps for the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid. He seems to be connected with the Macedonian craftsman in Constantinople, among whom he spreads the news about the agreement with the Patriarchate. For their own part they inform their own people in Macedonia about this. It causes great discontent here. Consequently, separatism has its roots in the secret circle of Constantinople. If you press them there, the commotion wil calm down here. Silence the trumpet, there won't be any echo!
The question of Father Nil is a highly delicate one, because he has barricaded himself in Kukush and does not want to return. His ambition seems to have made him to this. He stuffed his head with the thought of becoming the Archbishop of Ohrid ar at least Metropolitan of Salonika. As an Exarchate delegate he spreads the news about the agreement with the Patriarchate as the " most informed person". He decribes the Exarchate to the people as indifferent and passive in saving the Macedonian population from Greek spiritual slavery. Father Nil, who proved to be completely immature, seems to be a hireling of the highest Turkish vilayet authorities. However, his disobidiance to his headquarters began at the moment when he was summoned to return to Constantinople. Instead of obeying orders, he remained waiting there. His disobidiance also comes as a result of the suggestions that have been arriving from Constatinople. He maintains constant relations with Bishop Panaret and Nathaniel especially with the latter, who has suggested he stay in Macedonia until he gets an appointment for Ohrid and arrives in Macedonia. I think that Father Nil should be cast out of Macedonia at any cost and sent to Constatinople, because he is dangerous here. He already acts under the protection of the local Lazarists and the French consul.
Thoughts of the restoration of the Archbishop of Ohrid at the moment are most prevalent here, in Salonika. Here the schemes are being devised and here the hotheads are gathering. These thoughts of course are not based upon mature foundation, especially since Midhat-Pasha has been dismissed from Salonika. But they are gradually spreading to northern Macedonia, although they are not very clear. Some say one thing to the people and others say another. There is danger, if steps are not taken from spme authoritative place, of creating a genral ideal. Then the consequences would be much more serious. The best thing would be if His Grace, Count Ignatiev, were to visit Macedonia, because the population feels a secret hope thet only Russia could help them.
Tomorrow, with Gos's help, I intend to meet some of the elders from the local community. I shall try to convince them of the groundlessnes of their aspirations for a separarte Church when they already have one in the form of the Exarchate. Certainly the most difficult question will be that of the appointment of bishops of Macedonian origin and especially that of the cheirotonia of Father Hariton. I kiss Your Grace's right hand.
Salonika, Fabruary 1874. Your obedient P.R. Slaveykov
Another letter from P.R. Slaveykov: Your Grace,
I sent you a letter via a trustworthy man two days ago, in which I briefly described to you the situation in Salonika and Macedonia in connection with the unreasonable movement for the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid in union with the Roman Catholic Church. After the meeting with some of the local elders I have understood that there were everywhere wide discussions for a broader plan, namely, to create a Uniate Church in Macedonia.
According to reliable sources, only the cheirotonia of Father Hariton is awaited before action will be taken. Until the blessing of the Pope for the proclamation of the Uniate Archbishopric of Ohrid arrives, the bishops with their eparchies will be constituent apart of the Uniate Church with their seat in Adrianople. Then Father Nathaniel will be appointed Archbishop of Ohrid and the following appointments will be made in the eparchies: Father Panaret for the Pelagonia eparchy, Brother Kozma Prechistenski for the Debar eparchy, Father Nil Izvorov for the Salonika eparchy and Father Dorotej for the Skopje eparchy. The other eparchies, for which there are no candidates proposed, will temporarily be governed by the neighboring archpriests. Father Nil will be Bishop of Salonika, Kukush and Voden. Father Hariton, after his ordination, will also become bishop of the Serez and Melnik eparchies. Father Dionisij, as an archimandrite, will temporarily govern the Strumica eparchy.
I have personal impression, Your Grace, that nobody here is asking for a real union with the Roman Catholic Church. It is simply a means of restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid. Catholic circles also feel this and therefore have no great confidence in the people with whom they are negotiating. So I do not think it is too late to actin order to overcome the discontent, which later could be subdued. The Uniate movement is more dangerous in the places where formerly there was a Union because of similar reasons. Kukush comes in the first place, followed by Dojran with sympathy from Strumica, Maleshevo and Voden. The Salonika, Serez, Melnik and Drama villages lag behind them. There is not any powerful stirring of the Uniate propaganda indeed, but where there is smoke there must be fire. The appointment of Bishop Nil is expected for the fire to blaze forth. The Poljanin eparchy will immediately turn into a Union and the Strumica and Voden eparchies will join in, as well as a huge number of villages in Salonika, Drama, Serres and other eparchies. The other Macedonian eparchies will certainly be shattered, too, first the Veles eparchy and then the Skopje one. The Veles eparchy is also dissatisfied with its bishop, Damaskin, while at the same time the citizens of Veles, aroused by a craving for power, believe that they should govern Macedonia in religious matters.
The causes of such a situation in the whole of Macedonia are very obvious. The Macedonian eparchies and towns I have already mentioned are extremely embittered by the serious position of the Church and the people in which they find themselves. The spreading of the idea of restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid upon an Uniate basis is also helped by the French and Austrian consuls, who promise full protection before the Turkish authorities and persecution of the Constantinople Patriarchate. The Greeks themselves indirectly help the spreading of the Union in Macedonia, expecting the Exarchate to become weak because of the Union and thus finding allies in the liquidation of the Catholic propaganda in Macedonia. I have concluded this from the talks I had with the Greek consul in Salonika. He was not in the least worried at the danger of the spread of the Union in Macedonia. On the contrary, Greece is seeking support for its economic and national activity in Macedonia. According to the opinion of the Greek consul, the part of the people who will not accept the Union, disillusioned with the Exarchate, will remain under the jurisdiction of the Patriarchate.
In the talks I had it was not by chance that the agents and adherents of the Union mentioned that the "Macedonian question" could only be settled through the Union. In order to make full use of the discontent and bitterness of the people against the Exarchate, they strengthen their accusation against the Exarchate. They speak about the Macedonian question upon a religious basis, but at the same time stir up the old separatist trends among the Macedonians - to create a new ethnic region through the Union - in the spirit of Midhat-Pasha's schemes. As the Roman Catholic agents worked out a cultural and national program for the Union in 1860 for the liberation of the Bulgarian people from the Patriarchate, they now also appear with a specific program for the spiritual and national liberation of the Macedonian eparchies through the Union. The Macedonian activists already widely use the expression the Macedonian movement in their language of communication, by which one should understand independent national and church liberation. I must emphasize strongly, Your Excellency, that this is a factor of an important political character - separatism is being spread starting from a religious basis towards a broader national one.
After the talks I had with Father Petar Dimov I felt that he has slowly retired from being drawn into the Union. Today he has officially renounced the Union and sent a letter to You expressing his loyalty to the Exarchate. I also talked to Father Averkij. He told me that he would also withdraw from the movement if appointments for the Exarchate bishops were issued by the autumn. My attitude towards these two Church dignitaries was moderate and friendly, because any repressive measures could stir up spirits.
.... Your spiritual child P.R. Slaveykov S. Dimevski, Dve pisma na P. R. Slaveykov za makedonizmot. - Razgledi XIV, 5(1972), p.561-566
April 6, 1878
in Salonika To the Right Honorable Austen Henry Layard "...Russian agents are busy in the country, and even here, trying to get petitions that the whole of Macedonia be included in Bulgaria... They tell the people: If you remain out, your state (and you see what it is) will be worse then it was before, while if you attach yourselves to us and our cause, you will get all the benefits accruing to a large and powerful Kingdom, under Russian protection... I remain... Edward B. Barker British Museum, London, Dmss Layard Papers, Vol. LXXXIX Addd. 39.019, 186-187.
1878
From the record of the Imperial Russian secret archives on the arrangement and government of the Balkan regions. ...Count Shuvalev demands that all the necessary measures for pacification of Macedonia be undertaken. For its purpose, it would be desirable to send competent agents there, and to proclaim to the Macedonians on behalf of the Governor, the Emperor, that His Highness is concerned about their fate, as much as for the other Slavs, and they will be granted the same freedom as that of the Bulgarians, now already liberated.... Dokumenti iz sekretnite arhivi na Ruskoto pravitelstvo. Sofia 1893, p.11-12.
1878
The rules of the Macedonian Rebel Commitee of the Kresna Uprising It is well known to all of us that this ill-fated country of ours, Macedonia, owing to the egoistic aims of the Great Powers, was gain left to Turkey after the Congress of Berlin. As a result of that, in certain regions of our fatherland many scenes full full of blood, known to all of us, took place....We rebelled as advocates of freedom. With the blood we shed all over Macedonian fields and forests, we serve freedom, as the Macedonian army of Alexander of Macedon did, with our slogan "Freedom or Death!" The aim of the Uprising in Macedonia 1.The uprising in Macedonia...should be extended all over Macedonia. 2. Those people from Macedonia who feel themselves to be Macedonians and love the freedom of their fatherland are taking part in the uprising. From the private archives of Cyril, Patriarch of Bulgaria, Arch. of Act 2341, AE 50, pp. 30-61. The Residence of the monastery of Dragolevci, Sofia, P.R. Bulgaria.
June 8, 1879
Georgi Pulevski to Despot Badzovic: ...The Bulgarians here are playing tricks with us and are turning the water to their mill alongside divine Nathaniel, who is a Macedonian, but rather inclined towards the Bulgarians... Arhiv Srbije (Beograd) Fond: Ministarstvo prosvete, P. nbr. 981/8.VI.1879; Razgledi XIV/10 (1972), p. 1132.
March 23, 1881
Manifesto of the Provisional Government of Macedonia: ...our dear Macedonia, our dear homeland is calling upon you: you who are my faithful children, you who are descendants of Aristotle and Alexandar the Great, you in whose veins Macedonian blood flows, do not let me die, but help me!... President Vasil Chomo, Secretary Nikola Trajkov in Kjustendil Centralnii Gosudartsvenii Arhiv Okjabarskii revoljucii i socialtieskoga stroitelstva SSSR, Moskva - Fond Gr.Ignatieva No.730 - opis No. 1, ed.hr.79; Lj. lape, Odbrani tekstovi za istorijata na makedonskio narod, II del, Skopje 1976, p.256-258.
May 9, 1888
Salonika. Temko Popov to Despot Badzovic ...I shall try to write to you, as far as possible, in our language, replacing the words I don't know with Bulgarian ones. What else can I do, Despot? While our language could one dictate to the other Slav languages, it has now remained the poorest of all, and like a begger, it serves either Bulgarian or Serbian....Let us no lie to ourselves, Despot, tha national spirit in Macedonia has reached such a stage today that even if Jesus Christ had come to the Earth, he would not have been able to persuade the Macedonian that he was a Bulgarian or a Serb, excepting those Macedonians in whom Bulgarian propaganda has already taken root. In order to convince yourself of this, you must have Bulgarianism in view. Bulgarian propaganda has now been working for 20 years in Macedonia, in the blindest of times - when Hellenism, coming from and entirely alien nation, started to take root in the Macedonian heart; but the Macedonians, seeing a ray of Slavism, rejected everything as if eyeless, without paying attention to the difference. It was sufficient for them to have broken with Hellenism. But what is to be done now i.e. after twenty years of Bulgarian striving, indoctrination and unsparing pecuniary sacrifaces? My dear Despot, everybody does what is natural, but unexpected for the Bulgarians, that is, now every Macedonian admits he is not a Bulgarian and declares loudly his nation, even though he may stilluse Bulgarian means, not having his own, of course. ... Your friend T. Popov Narodna Biblioteka, Belgrade - fond - Jovan Hadzi Vasiljevic II 413/III May 9 1988.
1890
A request by the citizens of Ohrid for the restoration of the Archbishopric of Ohrid To His Holiness, the Great Patriarch, Constantinople, We, loyal subjects to His Majesty, the Emperor Sultan Abdul Hamid II, for a long time did not have freedom for our Church, and since 1872 have become an even more misled flock, for we came under the Bulgarian Exarchate, deceived by Bulgarian propaganda. Thus we became schismatics, as well. ...Apart from the fact that Bulgarians deceived and beguiled us, they also reject our language, change our holy customs and alter our character, too. We cannot tolerate it any more and we do not want our children to curse us and the graves of our forefathers... (signatures of 120 citizens of Ohrid) DA DSIP - Beograd - PPO, F.7, d.6, p.br. 962, 1890.
June 22, 1891
Skopje Theodosius, Metropolitan of Skopje, to Archimandrite Dionysius in Sofia. ...our Holy Exarchate headed by His Holiness Exarch Joseph I does everything possible to persuade the wretched Macedonian people that it has good intentions, that it cares for their present and future and that it wants to draw them out of the darkness of national unawareness and create holy Bulgarians of them. But I would not have to persuade you too long, my dearest brother in Christ, that our Holy Exarchate, with its religious and educational activity here, in Macedonia, in fact carries out a most miserable task, it deprives a people of its name and replaces it with another, it deprives them of their mother tongue and replaces it with another, alien one, in order to allow its government and its Bulgarian masters to extend their commerce to foreign territories, too. And what else would you call this, my dear brother, other then a new slavery, even more terrible then the Turkish one? The Turks take the property and the lives of the people, but do not encroach upon their spirit. They destroy the body but respect the soul. And our Holy Exarchate kills the latter, the perpetual... I have written this to you, so that you would not be amazed by my previous letter in which I stated my opinion that we clergyman, Macedonians in origin, should unite and urge our people to awaken, throw off foreign authority, throw off even the Patriarchate and the Exarchate, and spiritually unified under the wing of the Archbishopric of Ohrid, their only true Mother Church. Is it not high time to put an end to the national movements of a single people among which some recognize the Patriarchate, some the Exarchate and some even bow to Mohammed? Is it not high time to put an end to hatred between blood brothers? And how could this be achieved if not by the way of our national Church , by way of the Archbishopric of Ohrid? I shall be sincere, my dear brother in Christ, and shall openly declare to you: we, the Macedonians, to not suffer as much by the Turks, long live our Padishah, as by the Greeks, the Bulgarians and the Serbs, who have set upon us like vultures upon a carcass in this tortured land and want to split it up. ("And they parted Your garments, Jesus")..... ...Theodosius of Skopje Centralen D'rzhaven istoricheski archiv (Sofia) 176, op. 1. arh.ed. 595, l.5-42 - Razgledi, X/8 (1968), p.996-1000.
December 4, 1891
Theodosius, Metropolitan of Skopje, to Pope Leo XIII I, the undersigned Metropolitan of Skopje, Theodosius, by God's Mercy head of Skopje eparchy, am submitting this request both in my name and in the name of of the whole Orthodox flock of Macedonia, in which we are begging His Holiness to accept us under the wing of the Roman Catholic Church...Our desire springs from the historical right of the Orthodox Macedonian people to be freed from the jurisdiction of foreign Churches - the Bulgarian Exarchate and the Constantinople Patriarchate - ....The borders of the Archbishopric should conform to the present borders of Macedonia... Archivio della S. Congregazione de Propaganda Fide - Roma: Indice della Potenza - Marzo 1892-93, Somm.XV, f.132-141.
August 20, 1892
Serbian Consul in Bitola, Dimitrije Bodi, to Minister of Foreign Affairs, Vladan Djordjevic, in Belgrade. I have to inform you, dear Sir, that some intellectualist movement among the local teachers has recently appeared in the town of Kostur, which insists upon rejection of Greek and Bulgarian propaganda, and the introduction of the Macedonian dialect as the language of teaching in the schools. This initiative has in fact been started....If you are interested in these matters, Sir, please answer me with a ciphered telegram. DA - DSIP. P odd.I red 278 (1892).
August 26, 1892
Serbian Consul in Bitola, Dimitrije Bodi, to Minister of Foreign Affairs, Vladan Djordjevic, in Belgrade. ....I have heard from my own people that the local community at its meeting of 22nd Auguts this year, decided that the teaching in the new 1892/1893 school year should be done in the Macedonian dialect. The town teachers were given the task of working a program for the language teaching and a provisional grammar of the Macedonian dialect.... DA - DSIP. P odd.I red 278 (1892).
1890
Karl Hron: "The Nationality of the Macedonian Slavs": ...From my own studies of the Serbo-Bulgarian dispute I came to the conviction that the Macedonians are an individual nation, both by their history and their language; thus, they are neither Serbs nor Bulgarians... Karl Hron, Das Volksthum der Slaven Makedoniens, Wien 1890, S. 4-5, 15-17, 20, 22,26
1896
Paul Argyriades (A French socialist born in Macedonia): ...Present day Macedonia is one of the European provinces of the Turkish Empire. It borders on the south with Epirus, Thessaly and the Mediterranean, on the east with Thrace and the Mediterranean, on the north with Mount Hemus, Bulgaria and Serbia and with Albania on the west....Macedonia, as the homeland of the two greatest personalities of the Ancient World - Aristotle and Alexander the Great, who conquered the world. should it anew conquer its independence and its autonomy?...And if an autonomous Macedonian administration were to be introduced in this land in ten years only, it would be the earthly paradise of the world...The small states - the Greek, Bulgaria and Serbian ones -argue for the acquisition of Macedonia, using all kinds of proofs - chauvinist and historical - invented in support of their interests, while no one seems to realize that if the historical truth were to be respected, Macedonia should rather have the right to possess all those countries, which would like to devour it, since once it governed and ruled them itself....The Macedonians do not want the kind of caresses which may strangle them. They want to remain Macedonians without any other epithet, guarding for themselves their beautiful Macedonia... Almanach de la Question Sociale. Illustre'. (Paris), Pour 1896, pp. 240-244.
1897
From "Maleshevski Balkan" journal: At Least Do Not Hinder Us There is hardly any harsher situation then that of the Macedonian cause. Aroused by sympathy, feelings and tradition to maintain always the closest links with its direct neighbors, the Bulgarians, Serbs, and others, today it surprises us most mercilessly and makes us repent. Nobody, undoubtedly nobody, would deny the justification of our hopes in the Bulgarians and the Serbs, as people who stand closest to us, as people with the same past as ours, etc. ... From "Maleshevski Balkan", Sofia, I, 16, 1 (1897).
1897
William Gladstone ...Next to the Ottoman Govt. nothing can be more deplorable and blameworthy then jealousies between Greek and Slav, and plans by the States already existing for appropriating other territory. Why not Macedonia for Macedonians, as well as Bulgaria for Bulgarians and Servia for Servians. And if they are small and weak, let them bind themselves together for defence, so that they may not be devoured by others, either great and small, which would probably be the effect of their quarreling among themselves. The Times (London), 6th January 1897, p.12
1898
Petar Mandzukov to Kostadin Kirkov ...Perhaps our slavery would not have been so difficult if various kinds of propaganda had not interfered in our affairs, which under the name of "brothers" and "benefactors" divide brothers from brothers and make the Turks commit the worst of crimes. Those "brothers" of ours do everything possible to prevent the unity of our freedom-loving forces. And what has been the result of such propaganda? Even the true sons of our country, those whoa re really not afraid to sacrifice their lives at the altar of our Fatherland, often wrongly think that the liberation of Macedonia could not be conceived without the interference of this or that state. They go over to the side of this or that people and forget their own people. Instead of uniting their forces in favor of their own people and striving in unison to liberate it from bondage, they cannot agree whom they should serve. We know, Kostadin, that our fatherland differs by its population from one Bulgaria, Greece or Serbia, which are homogenous countries. There are various nationalities and religions in our country. There are Macedonians, Greeks, Wallachians, Turks, Jews, Albanians, even a few Armenians. and let us not forget the Gypsies.... CDIA (Sofia), f.70, on., AE70-74; - Razgledi, X/7 (1968), p.847-851

Elias2
27-01-11, 04:31
Greek Enlightenment

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment

You should do more research on the poeple you accuse of being fake.

Post more propaganda, I'm waiting ;)

DejaVu
27-01-11, 04:31
1900
A. Brutus (A. Drandar): Concerning a movement in Macedonia A considerable section of the European press does not cease to inform us of the immense sufferings undergone by the Christian population of Macedonia....It was the sad fate of that population that made us publish this booklet, based upon our experience and personal observations I had acquired impartially, as a foreigner, during my stay in Macedonia of several years...If one takes a retrospective view of the history of Macedonia to the most ancient of times, one remains amazed by the great role this small country, this classical country par excellance, played in the world....The Macedonian, born in a land to which nature was so favorable, has always longed for heroic feats and aspired to great deeds...Even the glorious cradle of Ancient Hellenism is subjected to the Macedonian kings...We find Macedonians on the Byzantine throne at the time when this empire was at its peak. Following the course of history, we see how the star of Macedonia shone with the same intensity. It plays the chief role in the revival of the Slav people. Thus, the two brothers exalted to apostles, Cyril and Methodius, objects of general admiration for the Slav world, are Macedonians, and owing to the very existence of these two apostles, this small land becomes the cradle of the Slav people to whom it gives its religion and art...The inhabitants of Macedonia do not want to be annexed either to Bulgaria or Serbia, or Greece; they want, they want so strongly, to live a human life in an autonomous country. Their slogan is: Macedonia to the Macedonians. A. Brutus, A Propos d'un Mouvement en Macedonie, Bruxelles 1900, pp.12-13, 15, 56.
1901
A.V. Amfiteatrov: The Land of Discord Each Slav should and is obliged to feel sympathy for Macedonian freedom. But Macedonian freedom cannot be achieved with their own, Macedonian means. The land is too small and weak to fight against the power of Constantinople, which only has to give a sign and tens of thousands of soldiers will attack the Rumalian vilayets and strangle them like mice before Europe could compose itself, even before Europe could know it. Hence, Macedonia cannot be freed with its own forces. Only an evil enemy, an unconscious enemy of Slavism could desire an armed movement in Macedonia now when the land is totally unprepared for an uprising, in circumstances of tied hands of the whole Europe, of Serbo-Bulgarian clashes, of huge preparations of the Turks against the slightest possibilities of movement. Or a real fool. These were the exact words of one of the high-ranking persons deciding the fate of Balkan Slavism in a discussion with me concerning the Macedonian committees. Nobody in Europe, none of the Great Powers can actively intercede in favor of the Macedonians against the Turks at the present moment - except, perhaps, Austria. Bu the very name of Austria causes panic in the Macedonian Slav element, who will allow Austria to reign in Macedonia? For it would be the destruction of all ideas of pan-Slavism, it would be the end of the Eastern Question, it would be the decisive and last victory of the German world over the Slav world. Then, we the Russians, would only be humbly left to falling out of step with that state with the projected historical tasks, with the repudiation of racial ideals - a state similar to modern Italy or Spain, only in greater proportions. The young Slav states, adjacent to Macedonia, are too young and too poor to go into struggle for it. At the same time, these states are disintegrating both from the internal situation and external family hostilities. The Bulgarians and the Serbians cannot stand each other; each consider Macedonia as their lawful property. Neither the Bulgarians nor the Serbs have even the slightest desire to create Macedonia for Macedonia. Enthusiast for an autonomous Macedonia can only be found among the Macedonian natives. Neither the Serb nor the Bulgarian wants the autonomy of Macedonia. As far as the question of whether Macedonia should become Bulgarian or Serbian is concerned, every Bulgarian would tell you with utter sincerity: -It would be better that the Turks ruled there eternally then to give the Serbs a chance to spread towards the Aegean Sea. And the Serb would say: - It would be better that the Turks did there whatever they allow your damned brothers to achieve their Greater Bulgaria from one sea to the other! The question of nationality has not been settled in Macedonia and it is hard to assume that it will ever be settled in a satisfactory manner. If we are to believe Gopcevic and Jasterbov there are almost no Bulgarians - all of the are Serbs. If we are to believe Ofejkov and Miljukov, there are no Serbs, all of them are Bulgarians. It is more probable that where we are dealing with a perfectly branch of Slavs, transitional between the Bulgarians and the Serbs. But that branch taken alone is insufficiently significant to win its freedom and turn itself into a state unit. Consequently, no matter how the question of its nationality is resolved, it is deprived of the possibility to exist, so to say; it is cursed in itself to serve as political material directly for its neighbors, and deviously and indirectly for Europe, which governs its naighbours. The basic reason for the failures of the Macedonian revolutionary organization lies in the fact that it is fed by means that have historically proved their ineffectiveness against state order of a European kind to overthrow the system and authority that have nothing in common with European order; since with the tactics, which have overthrown many European government, it attempts to erase military slavery, which has continued in Macedonia and Old Serbia for five centuries now; since the arms, victorious in the civil war, are also used in external war, because the Turk is not a fellow-citizen and compatriot of the Slavs, but he was, is and will be their external enemy... - They consider me a Bulgarophile, I.A. Zinovjev told me. But it isn't so at all. I behave in perfectly equal manner to all Slavs, and, if a person is decent and likable, it is all the same to me whether he is a Bulgarian, a Serb or a Macedonian. But I am a Russian representative and I have been sent here to protect, first of all, Russian interests. Permanent patronage over the Balkan Slavs is inseparably linked with Russian interests. We are their natural patrons. But this patronage does not mean Russia's following of Slav leaders; patronage is not characterless yielding. However, as far as the Macedonian question is concerned, the Bulgarians, as our most spoilt children in the whole of the Slav world, would like precisely to lead Russia with them where they have blindly started closing their eyes, demanding that the patronage be turned into yielding. The activities of the Macedonian committees, long under the patronage (with) our tolerance of the Bulgarian government, had the following direct calculation: - We shall force the Turks to abandon their reserved behavior they have taken up and borne with difficulty - wit a series of small explosions, murders and blackmails we shall arose the fanatic excitement of the Moslems, the Sultan will be forced to give in to the demands of his subjects of the same faith, and Turkish atrocities will start in Macedonia, blood will be shed, villages will be burnt. For the attainment of the sublime goal it is of no consequence whether fifty or fifty thousand people will be killed - the main thing is: slaughter must be caused, which will in turn cause the necessity of European intervention, and since the protection of the Slavs is the perennial deed of Russia and it will never leave the Macedonian question to Austria - consequently, volens-nolens, Russia shall have to send again hundred of thousands of soldiers to the Balkan Peninsula and achieve the freedom of Macedonia with its bayonets, i.e. it should put the land into the mouth of the Bulgarians. For they don't recognize any other nationality in Macedonia except the Bulgarian one. Consequently, the future freedom of Macedonia for them is either the fulfillment of the Treaty of San Stefano and unification of Macedonia with the Bulgarian Principality, or a creation of a new autonomous Bulgarian body, which will sooner or later be merged with the former into an 'integral Bulgaria'.... Cvetan Stanoevski, Kako ja vidoa Makedonija, Skopje 1978, pp.189-190,193-194.
1902
Appeal of the "National Macedonian-Albanian League" Brother Macedonians! Brother Albanians! ...There is no need that the Bulgarians, the Greeks or others amend our homeland... Executive Committee British Museum (British Library), London, 1902
1902
Nikola Karev to Goce Delchev ...Let us not expect freedom either from the Greeks or the Bulgarians; it is we, the Macedonians, who should fight for our Macedonia ourselves... Neobjaveno pismo, Nova Makedonija, (Skopje), XXIV, nbr.7744 (May 5 1968), p.8
1903
Victor Berard on the Macedonians. The ambition for a small homeland, the egotism of a small nation, is not the ultimate ideal of the Macedonians. To replace Turkish subjugation with Greek, Serbian or Bulgarian dependence does not seem to them to represent some great gain...Until recently France did not know the Macedonians. They were Thracian, Peons, Sclavins for us, a wild and almost a mythical people, that lived somewhere at the bottom of some unknown land for us. We either did not know them or despised them, since we heard of them from the malicious notes of the ancient and modern Greeks... La Revue de Paris, Juin 1903.
1904
A Macedonian Theory Was it so long before the liberation of the Bulgarians that throughout Bulgaria, in answer to the question as to what they were (by nationality), the Bulgarians said they were "Christians" or raya (non-Moslem Turkish subjects)?And even now it is not so rare on occasion to hear a Bulgarian answering in court as to the question of his nationality that he is a "Christian". The notion of nationality has still not become a new accomplishment of his mind. During the Turkish period, the Bulgarian peasant referred to the Bulgarians in the towns as "Greeks" and city lother were "Greek dress" for him. And since the Greeks designated that peasant as a "fat-headed Bulgar", his brother from the town loved to be called a "Hellene", so that he should not be scorned for his real national name. It is not exactly the same case with what Mr. Misirkov elaborates concerning the name of the Macedonian Slav? The name "Bulgar" fell even in Bulgaria to such position which earned only the contempt of the others. This name appeared so empty even in the mouth of the Bulgarians themselves that it became a synonym for "Christian"; the later designated the whole ethnic contents of Bulgarian individual and social consciousness. When our peasant used to say "we are Bulgars", he meant "we are Christians", i.e. Orthodox. The Russian Tsar was a "Bulgarian Tsar" for him not by nationality, but by Orthodox Christianity. A. Teodorov-Balan, Edna makedonska teorija - Periodichesko spisanie (Sofia), LXV (1904), p.818
1907-1908
The Macedonian Villages ...I asked him what language they spoke, and my Greek interpreter carelessly rendered the answer Bulgare. The man himself had said Makedonski. I drew attention to this word and the witness explained that he did not consider the rural dialect used in Macedonia the same as Bulgarian, and refused to call it by that name. It was Macedonian, a word to which he gave the Slav form of Makedonski, but which I was to hear farther north in the Greek form of Makedonike. And so the "Bulgarophone" villagers are no longer willing to admit that they speak Bulgarian. They have coined a new term of their own accord, and henceforth their dialect, until they have got rid of it, is to be known as "Macedonian". My Athenian friends were delighted when I told them of this on my return. It should give even greater pleasure to those Bulgarian agents who are so anxious to see the Macedonians thought they are Macedonians. Allen Upward, The East End of Europe, London 1908, pp. 204-205
June 25, 1910
Archimandrite Neophyte in Skopje to Bulgarian Exarch Joseph in Constantinople: Starting from some time ago, as I have already informed You several times, matters in the eparchy, and especially here have not developed as they should. The Eparchy Council, which, as You know, consists of the town's elders, has decided to send You a letter in which it strongly condemns the candidature of the former Metropolitan of Skopje, Theodosius, and among other things, upon my suggestion writes the following in the protest: "Outraged, we read in the newspapers that a group of villains wishes at any cost to urge the population - the voters of the Skopje Eparchy - to bring back that typical intransigent, Theodosious, as the Metropolitan of the Skopje Eparchy. This is the same Theodosius who 17 or 18 years ago wanted to separate the Skopje Eparchy from the Exarchate and proclaim himself an independent Metropolitan. For this purpose, he then made a special seal on which he deleted the words "Bulgarian Exarchate", so sacred to us, and printed his own baptismal certificates, marriage certificates and other documents; he did not fulfill the circular letters and the orders of the Exarchate, etc. Yet, since at that time there were not such a strong anti-Bulgarian movement among the local Bulgarians, it was possible for the Exarchate to remove this dangerous schismatic in time and thereby preserve the unity of the Bulgarian Church in Turkey. Now this same schismatic, contrary to Exarchist interests, wishes to restore his eparchy and continue his dishonest business of disuniting our Bulgarian people. We protest most strongly against his nomination as Metropolitan of Skopje, because he insults the Bulgarian feeling among the population". Unfortunately, Your Grace, if the Eparchy Council has such people with common sense, this is not the case with some craftsman's circles, which have come under the influence of Mr. Petar Pop Arsov, a teacher, who has taken the idea into his head that he is a leader of the people. He constantly speaks against the Exarchate and its leadership, including myself, and urges the craftsman to support Metropolitan Theodosios' candidature, since he once suffered for defending the interests of the Macedonians. It would not be superfluous if I informed You about another problem, which, I presume, will represent a kind of plot in this whole election propaganda. I have understood from some members of the Council that Krste Petkov, who at one time started "Misirkovism", had requested from certain relative of his, living here in Skopje, that he put him in touch with this teacher, Petar Pop Arsov, in connection with collecting songs about Krale Marko in the Skopje district, and Mr. Pop Arsov was so kind as to agree immediately. I am writing this to you, Your Grace, a justified suspicion that schismatic forces are being brought to life here. The said Mr. Krste Misirkov expressed in a letter to his relative has desire to return to Macedonia, more precisely, to come to Skopje as soon as Macedonia was liberated. The man wished to be a professor at the Skopje university (?!). If this is true, and there are no reasons for lying to me, then You may conclude Yourself what danger threatens the Bulgarian idea in these historic times. Just imagine if the "Misirkovism" of Mr. Krste, the "separatism' of His Grace Theodosius and the "autonomism" of Mr. Petar Pop Arsov joined together! I am of the opinion, Your Grace, upon the basis of the protest by the Eparchy Council (which was, after all, published in the press) that the candidature of His Grace Theodosius should be withdrawn, by which a danger of as yet unseen proportions for the Bulgarian cause in Macedonia would be evaded. I remain Your Grace's younger brother in Jesus Christ and I pray for You. S. Dimevski, Diskusija - K.P. Misirkov i nacionalno-kulturniot razvoj na makedonskiot narod do Osloboduvanjeto - Zbornik Misirkov. Simpozium. Skopje, Institut za makedonski jazik, 1975, pp.338-339.
1905
Sveta Simic, representative of the Kingdom of Serbia in Bulgaria, to Jovan Jovanovich-Pizon, head of the consular department of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Belgrade. D. Gruev again visited me last Saturday. D. Hristov also chanced to be in my house, so we spent more then 3 hours in discussion. The Macedonians have been afraid that the Bulgarians and we agreed to divide them, and accordingly they are the only ones left to frown at the Imperial Alliance. They suspect it hides something else. They continually make agreements and preparations but undertake nothing more serious. They constantly send smaller bands and ammunition into their country. All their activity is reduced to this only in present. They would like to make an agreement with us, but such as to sacrifice nothing of what they call their autonomy. They have come to see more and more that there are obstacles before them which they cannot fight successfully, and under the influence of which they continually lose their importance as an authoritative factor in the development of the Maced(onian) question. This is what hurts them immensely. They are divided among themselves, just as before. The differences of their views also intensify their personal hatred, which makes some of them avoid the others, plotting among themselves....Unfavorable rumors reach us from Macedonia, too. The people, craving for freedom, would like to reject their yoke and uncertainty as soon as possible, so that they would be ready for some decisive steps as well, but their distrust both of their leaders and Bulgaria prevent them. Under the influence of the news about the Imperial Alliance a mood has been created in which they would like to be freed from their yoke at any cost, even if they were compelled to come under Bulgaria and Serbia. And if these two did not help them, they would gladly accept Austrian occupation, as well... Arhiv SFR Jugoslavije (Belgrade) - Fond Jovan Jovanovic-Pizon, 80 (1905).
1906
To my brother in arms, Dushan, voyvoda from the village of Bistrica Brother, you should know that I have received your letter and understood all that you wrote me. We have put the people in great trouble, it is true, but who is to blame for this? You say we are to blame, we say you are to blame. As far as I know, ten years have passed (and) has never been over those years any bloodshed between ourselves or division into Serbomans or Bulgarophils. We have been Macedonian fighters and we will fight to the end for the Macedonian people, but we do not fight for Bulgaria or Serbia, nor Greece; they are free and live freely and drink in shaded inns; they have the right to drink so since they shed their blood earlier. We, who come from this Macedonian land should work for Macedonia, because our Macedonian brothers are murdered on the roads and our Macedonian sisters are disgraced by the bloody Turk, by the fat Turk. We are not against any nationality of either Bulgaria, Serbia, or Greece; we should recognize the merit of those who would help us. If there had been any Serbian, Bulgarian or Greek land here, they should not have waited for us to die in the mountains but should have liberated Macedonia with their armies; only then they could have demanded Serbia, Bulgarian or Greek land here... Blazhe Krusheski DA SSID - Fond Izvrshnog odbora Srpske narodne organizacije F-6 (1906)
1912
A.V. Amfiteatrov: Macedonia ...Following the Russian war, Turkey of the old regime finally turned into a "sick man", and the heirs of the executors of the expected will gathered around his death-bed. The future destiny of Macedonia came to depend not as much on the will of Turkey itself as on the sympathies of the European guardians. In the 19th century Europe learned through Germany, Italy and Greece to consider the right to national self-determination a little. Thus, all the states and countries bordering on Macedonia have started intensive propaganda in favor of their nationalities, as it were a race or along jump for an award. They have taken care, as much as they have means and power, to persuade Europe by truth and lies, that allegedly the national self-determination of the Macedonian inclines in their favor, and not in favor of the neighboring nation. In this respect the Bulgarians proved more swift the their rivals. In order to make Macedonia Bulgarian, they had to Bulgarize the Macedonians. Thus, following the Bulgaro-Serbian War of 1885, the greatest powers and considerable sacrifices of the Bulgarian state apparatus were given to the Bulgarization of the Macedonian Slavs. Bulgarian agents were the priests and the teachers; the comitajis and band-members became the secret government of the country and, allegedly, its soul. In the beginning the propaganda was exceedingly successful. Miljukov, who visited Macedonia towards the end of the nineties, looked at it too much through Bulgarian glasses and - so to say - proclaimed all the Macedonians to be full-blooded Bulgarians. But his mistake can be considered as made with clear conscience. He found Macedonia so profoundly and brilliantly Bulgarized that it is no wonder that he took the clothes for the body - the culture for the nationality. Those who have read The Land of Discord know my view about the Macedonians. They are neither Serbs nor Bulgarians, but a primordial Slav people with simple basic language which is to a great degree able to be subject to any form offered by another, more influential and more developed Slav culture. There are Macedonian Bulgarians where the Bulgarian school and Church are firmly established, and Serbs where literacy is in the hands of the Serbs. They could have been turned with the same ease, under the influence of education, religion and commerce, into Little Russians, Great Russians or Poles. Their language is melted metal which can easily be molded into any kindred form. But - a related one. So, it is national kinship which is the main reason for making Macedonia a center of confrontation between the Slavs and for destroying the Greek influence in it. Statistics about Macedonia are confusing, tendentious and fantastic. In spite of that, even according to Greek sources, it is easy to see the Hellenes represent a minority in the Macedonian vilayets. As a result of this and aiming to create a majority, the Greeks had to resort to sufficiently unscrupulous falsifications, counting all Slav Patriarchists as Greeks. These are Slavs who have not acknowledged the Exarchate but remained faithful to the Constatinople Patriarchate, although they speak only Slavic. In this way the Greeks have come to understand one's nationality in the same manner as the Turks - religion equals nationality. A patriarchist - means a Greek... C. Stanoevski, Kako ja vidoa Makedonija, pp.210-211.
1912
Bulgarian statesman Dimitar Rizov on his nationality ....In the golden months of the successful beginning of the war against the Turks, he spoke to me as a convinced Yugoslav (South Slav). He explained to me, I being a Croat, the real situation of matters in Macedonia and said that it was shame that the first free Slav state had not been founded in Macedonia, which would equally attract to union the Bulgarians and the Serbs, and would be a bond and not a cause of discord between the Serbs and the Bulgarians...He told me that the Macedonians, to tell the objective truth, were neither Bulgarians nor Serbs, but Macedonian Slavs who spoke in their own individual Macedonian language or dialect. ..."Our people", he said, "were only 'Macedonian Christians,' and then, when Greek propaganda developed they become 'Macedonian Christian Slavs'. It was all the same to us which Christian country would help us to free ourselves from the Turks. I was born in Bitola. There were several grammar-schools in Bitola: Turkish, Greek, Serbian and Bulgarian. It was all the same to us, the Slavs, which Slav grammar-school we attended. For example, alongside many of my friends who later became Bulgarians, I attended the Serbian grammar-school. It is true that the teachers in the grammar-school told we were Serbs, just as those in the Bulgarian grammar-school were told that we were Bulgarians, but we kept our own counsel, and that was what our parents told us at home: it does not matter, let them talk, but we are Macedonian Christian Slavs..." Ivan Meshtrovic, famous Croatian sculptor, Uspomene na politichke ljude i dogagjaje. Zagreb 1969, pp. 25-26, 39.
March 1, 1913
Memorandum on the Independence of Macedonia submitted by the Macedonian colony in St. Petersburg to the Conference of the representatives of the Great Powers in London. ...it is more suitable for all the neighbors of Macedonia that this country remain undivided, since by any division, sections of our living compatriots will remain under foreign authority and will perish. The Macedonians have won their right to self-determination over their whole recent history, as well...The Serbs and the Bulgarians deliberately say nothing about these huge Macedonian victories and permit nobody to write about them...As a result of all this, the Macedonian Colony in St.Petersburg, fulfilling its sacred duty towards its fatherland and conscientiously applying the slogan "Macedonia to the Macedonians", protests and cannot remain indifferent when the allied Balkan states (Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece) - our brothers in blood and faith - aim to dismember our fatherland....Here is what is needed for the Macedonian people; 1. Macedonia should remain a single, indivisible and independent Balkan state with it geographic, ethnographic, historical, economic and political borders. 2. A Macedonian national assembly should be established on the basis of general elections in Salonika in the soonest possible time, which would work out in detail the internal structure of the state and determine its relations with the neighboring states. Makedonskii Golos, St. Petersburg 1913-1914
1913
Nace Dimov Chupovski: A Political Survey of Macedonia and the Macedonians. In examining the Macedonian question from the political point of view, I shall not deal with the old times....Condemned at first to Roman rule, and then to Byzantine oppression, and finally to Turkish slavery, the terrible name of Macedonian found shelter from generation to generation in Macedonian hearts only...In the same towns and villages, the priests that receive salary from the Bulgarian Exarchate call themselves Bulgarians, those that receive salary from the Serbian Metropolitan office call themselves Serbians...Besides, the Macedonians were always allies and participants both in the liberation of the Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians....From all that has been previously mentioned, I dare say that the Macedonians have a one hundred percent right to autonomy and not to being subjected to dismembering among the Greeks, the Serbs and Bulgarians. Disregarding this fact, the Serbian, Greek and Bulgarian governments, aiming to extend their frontiers into Macedonians territory, spare no means and exterminate the Macedonians who refuse to call themselves Greeks, Serbs and Bulgarians...The Macedonian people will not reconcile themselves either with those who aspire to deprive them of their language, customs and the natural desire to be free masters of their own house. Hence, only if the Serbs, Greeks and Bulgarians renounce their aspirations will Macedonia live in a friendly way .... N.D. Dimov, Istoricheskii ocherk Makedonii i makedonskih slavjan - Peterburg, 1913
June 7, 1913
To the Governments and the Public of the Allied Balkans States The Macedonians have continually, over the centuries, risen up and fought for independence and freedom, and by their persistent struggle aided the liberation of Serbia, Greece and Bulgaria....More then on hundred thousand Macedonian fighters have fought shoulder to shoulder with the allied armies....Instead of Macedonia, celebrated by Alexander of Macedon, consecrated by the Apostle St. Paul, dignified by the activity of the holy brothers SS. Cyril and Methodius....instead of united, integral and free Macedonia, European diplomacy, and alongside it, you, too, our brothers - allies and liberators, are tearing us into pieces and defiling our sacred ideals....Remember, brother Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks, that you were reborn to start a new life only after 14 bloody wars of Russia against the Ottoman Empire...Remember that a dismembered Macedonia will be an eternal apple of discord among you. Remember that also in the past times of history one after another state perished in the struggle for Macedonia and do not continue the bloody list of the dead in the present time.... Macedonia should be an independent state within its ethnographic, geographical, cultural and historical boundaries, with a government accountable to a national assembly...a national representative body should be established...in the city of Salonika, elected by general vote. Brother allies and liberators! We hope that our words will reach your hearts and minds.... St. Petersburg Signed by the authorized representatives Makedonskii Golos, St. Petersburg, pp. 52-55
September 5, 1913
Dimitrija Chupovski: What did Bulgaria represent for Macedonia The Bucharest Conference of the Balkan states completely destroyed Article 23 of the Berlin Congress which stipulated the introduction of reforms in Macedonia as a self-governing province of Turkey. At the time this stipulation gave wings to the hopes of the Macedonians for the possibility of creating an autonomous Macedonia and proved to be a counter-balance to the stipulations of the Treaty of San Stefano, which defaced Macedonia by its inclusion within the boundaries of Greater Bulgaria. However, regardless of the stipulations of the Berlin Congress, the Treaty of San Stefano constantly instigated the Bulgarians to actions for creating a Greater Bulgaria at the expanse of Macedonia and they continually spent millions of rubles for agitation in Macedonia by opening their own, purely Bulgarian, schools and churches. As a result of this, Bulgaria began regarding itself as the only future liberator of Macedonia, comparing its role in the cause of the liberation of Macedonia with the role of Russia in the liberating Russo-Turksih War. We, however, cannot agree at all with such a comparison....Russia was Bulgaria's liberator, and accordingly, to compare its role with the role of Bulgaria in the present war is, at the very least, absurd and ridiculous for our contemporaries, before whose eyes this tragicomedy was being acted. The role of Bulgaria as regards to Macedonia was from the very beginning criminal; it was first to violate...the article of the Berlin Treaty which bound Turkey to introduce reforms in Macedonia. Moreover, carrying out unbearable, extremely chauvinist, propaganda among the Macedonians through its Constantinople Patriarchate, Bulgaria was the first to cause rivalry and the introduction of similar propaganda by the Greeks and the Serbs, thus instilling discord among the Macedonians. During the whole 30 years of its existence as a state, Bulgaria has carried out anti-Macedonian policy. Flattering and attracting the Macedonians to its side. at the same time it persecuted them with ferocity and hatred and strove to destroy in them any idea of an autonomous Macedonia; while doing so, the Bulgarians did not shrink from using any means. Thus, in 1888, the Bulgarian Government destroyed the 'Macedonian Literary Society' under the presidency of Georgi Pulevski....Two years later, in that same Sofia, the Bulgarian Government closed the evening schools, specially opened for the emigrant Macedonian craftsman, and the heads of those schools. Macedonian patriots - Damjan Gruev, Delchev, Petre Pop Arsov and many others - were expelled from Bulgaria. In addition, let us consider just those persecution to which the so-called Internal Macedonian Organization was exposed, working on the spiritual revival of Macedonia and its political liberation. Its members were persecuted both by the Bulgarian government and the Exarchate, the local instrument of those governments. In order to paralyze the successes resulting from the activity of the Internal Macedonian Organization, the Bulgarian government formed with Macedonian emigrant a requisite counter-Macedonian organization (made of the dregs(?) of society), known under the name of the Supreme Macedonian-Adrianople Committee, the task of which was to trumpet to the whole world that Macedonia is a purely Bulgarian country. Who does not know the shameful role of this Committee shown through its activity on the partition of Macedonia as a whole and of the Macedonian intelligentsia in particular? Guided by the Bulgarian government through its teachers and generals of the type of Mihajlovski and Conchev, this Committee acted against the Macedonian liberation movement and worked with all means on the annexation of Macedonia to Bulgaria. Still more criminal was the role of Bulgaria in this shameful 'liberation' war. Did not Bulgaria hold long negotiations concerning the division of Macedonia with its present occupiers? Did it not, according to the treaty of 29th February 1912 with the Serbs, give to them the whole western section of Macedonia and thus violate its integrity? Did not Bulgaria, which attracted Greece, too, to the Serbo-Bulgarian alliance, start to divide Macedonia? Could it not know that the Greeks might join the alliance only because they had in mind the acquisition of the southern section of Macedonia? Is not Bulgaria to be blamed for the partition of Macedonia, hiding the real aim of the war from the representatives of the Macedonian people, which it had to reckon with. On the contrary, starting the war, it declared to the Macedonians that it was fighting against Turkey alongside the allies for their liberation. Allowing the Macedonians to organize themselves into military units, Bulgaria committed a hunderdfold crime, because it did not allow them to fight against Turkey in their native land, but directed them to Thrace, towards the shore of the Sea of Marmara, under the walls of Adrianople and the trenches of Chataldzha, which weren't needed, except for a bunch of Bulgarian glory-hunters; and the happened at the same time when the allied Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks were conquering Macedonia. How can we explain this criminal act of the Bulgarians towards the Macedonians, if not by the fear that those same Macedonians with arms in their hands would defend their homeland equally from any encroachments upon its independence? But in fact Bulgaria thus ruined not only Macedonia but also all its future. Shedding now crocodile tears for the lost Macedonia, did Bulgaria at the proper time make any attempt to preserve the indivisibility of Macedonia, which it likes to call its younger sister? How can some Bulgarian patriots claim that Bulgaria was in respect to Macedonia that biblical mother which appeared before Solomon's court? Would not a mother worthy of setting an example rather prefer to renounce her own son in only he could thus remain intact? However, as we all know, Bulgaria was the first to agree to the partition of Macedonia. Why has not Bulgaria up to this moment acted like a real "native mother" with her unselfishness, with motherly generosity towards Macedonia, with a project for its autonomy? This is exactly the attitude of Bulgaria which could have ensured the integrity and indivisibility of Macedonia, peace among the Balkan peoples and would have preserved the dignity of the "native mother" herself - Bulgaria. What hindered it, having included the item about the autonomy of Macedonia in the treaty, from raising at the proper time the question about the realization of that item? Nobody hinder it at all, but it did not make any attempts itself to raise this question. It did not make this attempt after the end of the first half of the war, when it realized that its allies of yesterday, the Serbs and the Greeks, having occupied Macedonia, would not like to leave it. And instead of submitting a project for autonomy, it decided to go to war, in order to gain as great as possible a section of Macedonia for itself. Even following the defeat, when the question was posed not for Macedonia but for Bulgaria itself - I am referring here to the Conference of Bucharest, where Bulgaria was "generously" offered an eighth or tenth part of Macedonia - here, too, it preferred to take that part, and did not follow the example of the biblical mother, renouncing its share of the child. I repeat, the following of this, there are some people again who compare the present position of Bulgaria to the position of Russia in the liberating Russo-Turksih War, with a desire in this way to represent it in the role of the same unselfish liberator as Russia was with regard to Bulgaria itself, refusing to see that the main reason for the misfortunes of Macedonia were precisely the Bulgaria aspiration towards this long tortured land. Dimitrija Chupovski, Makednoskii Golos, pp. 130-133
July 20, 1916
Rene Picard: The Autonomy of Macedonia The idea of Macedonia autonomy is familiar to all those who are acquainted with Balkan history and politics. If we asked the Christians of Macedonia they would answer that autonomy was the most desirable solution for them. There is and, in fact, there has always been a Macedonian spirit in Macedonia. Geographically, Macedonia has its own unity. Its borders are the following: to the south - Mt. Olympus, the mountains on the north bank of the River Bistrica, Lake Prespa and Lake Ohrid; to the west - the Drim from Debar; to the northwest and north - the Shar Mountains, the highlands north of Skopje, the defile of Kumanovo, the mountains that mark the Serbo-Bulgarian frontiers of before 1912; to the east - the Rhodope Mountains. The borderline with Thrace on this side is not clear. The regions of Drama and Kavalla can either be adjoined to Macedonia or separated from it; the plain of Drama is populated mostly by Turks; the town of Kavalla, like all the ports, has a strong Greek colony. To the south, the Chalcidice Peninsula is geographically Macedonian, but ethnographically Greek; the line of lakes separates it by a natural border from the rest of Macedonia... Les archives du Ministere des affiars etrangeres (Paris). Guerre 1914-1918, Balkans, Dossier generale, pp.158-165.
Dimitar Blagoev on the nationality of the Macedonians (Bulgarian Parliament session) December 10, 1917...D. Blagoev: Subordinate, but independent in their internal affairs. Someone from the left: Don't forget history. D.B.: What history? The one you falsify? (Laughter) We do not recognize such history. We see how things are in reality. It is a fact, gentleman national delegates, that there was a great struggle between the Bulgarian and the Slav peoples in the Balkan peninsula. And that process, described by Mr. Sakszov and supported by others, was not aimed at the unification of the Bulgarian people but at domination over the Slav peoples in the Balkan Peninsula who moved en masse to Byzantium and Asia Minor, and on the other hand, went to the south, towards Macedonia
1918
Rudolph Archibald Reiss on the Macedonians I said I would rather call your Bulgarophones Macedonians. You call these people Bulgarophones, owing to their language which is similar to Bulgarian. But, is it Bulgarian, is the same language spoken in Sofia? No. Macedonian is just as similar to Serbian as it is to Bulgarian. I am not a linguist and I would not allow myself a personal judgment, but disinterested Balaknologist have asserted to me that Macedonian is more similar to Serbian the Bulgarian. It is possible that there are linguists who assert the opposite. But it is a fact that the Macedonia language is spoken neither in Sofia nor in Belgrade. It is an individual Slav language, just as we have the Romansch in Switzerland, spoken in Grisons, apart from Italian. To my mind, the Macedonian can be called neither Bulgarian nor Serb, but simply Macedonian. R.A. Reiss, Sur la situation des Macedonianes et des musulmans dans les nouvelles provinces grecques. Paris, 1918, pp.6-7.
January 4, 1919
Sister Augustine Bewicke on the Macedonian autonomy St. Paul's Hospital, Salonika Dear Sir, Please excuse the liberty I take in writing you, it is because the final settlement in the Balkans is of vital interest to the Catholics in these countries. - I have been 33 years in this Mission, the Uniate Catholic Mission, which at the beginning of the Second Balkan War counted about 10,000 Catholics. The Treaty of Bucharest, which divided Macedonia without any regard to justice, was the cause of these poor people being dispersed on account of their Slav language, which was forbidden in Churches and schools. - The Bishop had his residence in Salonika, he has now been in exile more then 3 years, his priests are dispersed, his flock is indeed without pastors, nor do we have any hope of his return to any place under Greek or Serbian rule. - The Greeks will not admit the Slav language in Churches or schools; the inhabitants of Macedonia are in the great majority Slavs; they call themselves Macedonians, and what they desire and what we ardently desire for them is an autonomy under European control. - I whatever way Macedonia might be divided, the people would be always discontented, and would fight again as soon as possible. The only hope I can foresee is in strong autonomy, which neither Greeks nor Bulgars nor Serbs would dare attack; then the Macedonians, who are really intelligent and docile when they are well treated. would peacefully develop this beautiful fertile country... Surely Europe will not leave Macedonia under people whom the Macedonians hate, and whom they will continually fight... Public Record Office (London) - FO 608/44. Peace Conference (British delegation), 1919.
April 10, 1919
Protest from the Provisional representative of the IMRO to the Paris Peace Conference To His Excellency, Monsieur Clemanceau, President of the Council: It is duty of my honor, as a delegate of the Macedonian Committees to the High Peace Conference, to protest against the maneuvers of certain suspicious persons who claim to speak in the name of Macedonia and represent some so-called "Executive Committee of the Macedonian Societies". Let me be allowed to indicate that the Macedonian emigrants to Bulgaria have over the past 30 years created quite a small class of Macedonians Bulgarized to such a point that they sacrifice completely the interests of their native land to those of Bulgaria. People who have two homelands are generally suspicious; what to say, on the other hand, about those who do not hesitate to propose as delegates to the Conference two persons such as Aleksandrov and Protogerov, adherents to the Kaiser and Ferdinand, and organizers of the massacres in Nish? Indeed, there is noone else who could more compromise the cause of "Autonomous Macedonia" before the Aeropagus of the victors! Hence I have the honor to point out that the only Macedonian Societies free from any Bulgarian political influence, or any other, and representing loyally the whole of Macedonia, without distinction of language or religion, are the Macedonian Committees, which starting from the 1893 constituted the IMRO... It is in their name, and by no means in the name of Bulgaria or the Bulgarians, that I have already had the honor to request and now I am requesting again from Your Excellency to grant me an audience so that I may present to You the desires of the Macedonian people... Archimandrite Paul Christoff, General Vicar of Thrace, delegate of the Macedonian Committees. A. Lainovich, Jugoslavika u biblioteci za savremenu - medzhunarodnu dokumentaciju u Parizu - Godishen zbornik na FF, 24-25 (1972-73) pp. 88-89
July 1919
Bulgarian Nikola Pushkarov on "The Economic Wealth of Macedonia and its Neighbors" All the neighbors of Macedonia wish her well. Each of them tries through all means to convince the Macedonians of its significance as a savior. When the population of Macedonia doubts the sincerity of the unwanted liberators, they even prove to it the opposite by the sword. And each of the neighbors denies the other the right to be a liberator. The neighbors waged wars in this dispute, they had been fighting among themselves for years to the right of Macedonia's liberators. They exhausted the three neighboring peoples and almost exterminated the Macedonian people. The wars ended, because the peoples realized that the liberation of Macedonia had turned into enormous increase of the capital of the false patriots at the expanse of the peoples ' blood and sweat. Today the exhausted peoples, exasperated by the terrible patriotic deeds of the false patriots, demand payment for the lies, for the terrible lies which threw them into terrible rows. But the false patriots of the neighbors do not despair; they have created special agencies of mercenaries responsible for proving by excusable and inexcusable means how the Macedonians most closely belong to the "homeland" of their patrons. They have called the population of this unfortunate land either "Bulgarophone Greeks", or "Macedonians Slavo-Serbs,: or "brothers beyond Mount Rila."... ...It is the wealth of Macedonia which makes the false patriots of her neighbors mad with "patriotism". Makes them burn with desire to cut off as large as possible a portion of Macedonia for themselves to "liberate" it, i.e. to deprive the Macedonians of the chance of governing themselves. But you must keep your land, Macedonians, from the false good wishes of those individuals. They will bring you a new slavery, harsher then the former. Your land is entirely capable of an independent existence. ...Unite around the banner of the autonomy of your homeland, because it is the only banner which you will not be persecuted for not being a Greek, Serb or Bulgarian, but simply Macedonian. Bjoletin br. 8 (19.VII.1919) pp.7-8
November 18, 1919
Telegram from the General Council of the Macedonian Societies in Switzerland to the Peace Conference in Paris ..Assembled at its plenary session and working in the name of the whole of the Macedonian people, without serving any foreign policy, energetically protest against the clause allowing the Macedonians the right to opt for Bulgarian nationality. We do not want to be made instruments of Bulgarian irredentism in Macedonia. Macedonia has never been a part of the present Bulgarian Kingdom. The Bulgarian diplomats, who bear part of the responsibilities for the misfortunes of the Macedonian population, are by no means qualified to intercede in favor of our cause and have no right to do it... Secretary: Bl. Bojadziev; Vice-Persident: G. Nikolov Lj. Lape, Aktivnosta na Glavniot odbor, p. 190

DejaVu
27-01-11, 04:33
Where is your sources, all information I posted got sources, your got none.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 04:34
We know who we are, but do the surrounding fools know who they are?

Elias2
27-01-11, 04:50
I can tell most of that stuff is fake because of the rhetoric used would simply not be around in the time periods stated. let me give a few examples;

Beginning of 12th Century
From the Byzantine satire Timarion: "The day of Saint Demetrius in (Salonika) is as great a festival as the Panathinei in Athens or Panionii in Miletus; it is a grand Macedonian celebration in which not only the Macedonian people gather, but people of all sorts and from all directions: Greeks from different regions of Hellada, the Mizian tribes...". Vizantiiski Vremenik, Moscow VI 1953, p. 367.

- during this time greeks called themselves romans and so did all other peopels of the empire. How did a Russian in 1953 report on an event that happend in the 12th century is laughable.


1185
"Woe, woe, the city of Salonika is captured, I say, the metropolis of the Macedonians." Ephraimi Chronologici caesares; Ed. J.P. Migne - PG 143 , Paris 1891, p.198.

- again they didn't call themselves macedonians, that would represent a pagan people in a very strict christian empire.

Beginning of 13th C.
From the synod records of the Ohrid Archibishopric: "Ioannis Ierakar by birth Macedonian". J. Pitra, Analacta sacra et classica specilegio Solesmensi parta, t. VI Juris ecclesiastici graecorum selecta paralipomena. Parissis et Romae 1891, col. 315.

- again, they didn't call themselves by pagan references

1246
Ser was one a large city, but the Bulgarian Ivan had demolished when besieging it and other Macedonian cities. Georgii Acropolitae Opera, Recensuit A. Haisenberg vol. I, Lipsiae 1903, p.74-75, 77

- more of a geographical reference

1282-1321
...that king's alliance is certain and unanswering, just as long as he can settle near to Macedonia. While he was spending his time on these (matters), the protostrator Theodore Sinadinus, once freed from the West, arrived in Byzantium. He governed Prilep, the neighbouring regions and the lower Macedonian towns. Ioan Cantacuzeni Historiarum libri IV, Ed. J.P.Migne - PG Paris 1866, p.94

- again more of a geographical reference

Every reference of a macedonian people from about 500 to 1700 are lies because all orthodox peopels of the empire (Eastern Roman and Ottoman) called themselves romans. Other macedonian references are obviously geographical, not ethnic.


The lies and propaganda are hidden throughout all your posts. For you to copy paste them in this fasion and such long posts makes me think you save them on your computer and just paste them wherever you want. You actively promote lies? I don't think you're a very smart person.

Elias2
27-01-11, 04:53
Post more propaganda please

DejaVu
27-01-11, 04:55
And here is your Fake Greek enlightenment. The Fake Greeks.


And the Greeks?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...lbanian_origin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_of_Albanian_origin)
Greeks (of Arvanite origin)
Andreas Miaoulis
Markos Botsaris
Laskarina Bouboulina
Nikolaos Krieziotis
Xadziyiannis Mexis
Pavlos Kountouriotis - First Greek President
Kitsos Tzavelas
Georgios Kountouriotis - Prime Minister of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Prime_Ministers_of_Greece) under King Otto (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Otto_of_Greece).
Antonios Kriezis
Dimitrios Voulgaris - He was thus one of the greatest exponents of the Modern Greek Enlightenment (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Modern_Greek_Enlightenment).
Athanasios Miaoulis
Diomidis Kiriakos
Theodoros Pangalos
Petros Voulgaris
Alexandros Diomidis
Nikos Engonopoulos
Ieronymos II - Archbishop of Athens (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Archbishops_of_Athens) and All Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Otto_of_Greece) (GERMAN)
Otto Frederick, prince of Bavaria or Othon, king of Greece (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Ὄθων, ΒασιλεὺςτῆςἙλλάδος, Óthon, Vasiléfs tis Elládos; 1 June 1815 – 26 July 1867) was made the first modern King (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/List_of_Greek_monarchs) of Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Kingdom_of_Greece) in 1832 under the Convention of London (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/London_Conference_of_1832), whereby Greece (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greece) became a new independent kingdom under the protection of the Great Powers (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Great_Powers) (the United Kingdom (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/United_Kingdom_of_Great_Britain_and_Ireland), France (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/July_Monarchy) and the Russian Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Russian_Empire)).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kolettis) (VLACH)
Ioannis Kolettis (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): ΙωάννηςΚωλέττης) (1773[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] - 1847) was a Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) politician of Vlach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians) origin who played a significant role in Greek affairs from the Greek War of Independence (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence) through the early years of the Greek Kingdom, including as Minister to France and serving twice as Prime Minister.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ioannis_Kapodistrias) (Venetian)
Count (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Count) Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): ΚόμηςΙωάννηςΑντώνιοςΚαποδ ίστριας – Komis Ioannis Antonios Kapodistrias, in Italian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_language): Giovanni Capo d'Istria, Conte Capo d'Istria, and in Russian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language): графИоаннКаподистрия – Graf (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graf) Ioann Kapodistriya) (February 11, 1776 – October 9, 1831) was a Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) diplomat of the Russian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Empire) and later first head of state of independent Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Hellenic_Republic).
Ioannis Kapodistrias was born in Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu),(Κέρκυρα/Kerkyra in Greek), one of the Ionian Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Islands), which at the time of his birth were a possession of Venice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Venice) . He studied medicine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine), philosophy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy) and the law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law) at Padua (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Padua), in Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). When he was 21 years old, in 1797, he started his medical practice as a doctor in his native island of Corfu. He was throughout his life a deeply liberal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberalism) thinker and a true democrat, though born and raised as a nobleman. An ancestor of Kapodistrias' had been created a conte (count) by Charles Emmanuel II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Emmanuel_II), Duke of Savoy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duke_of_Savoy), and the title was later (1679) inscribed in the Libro d'Oro (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libro_d%27Oro) of the Corfu nobility; the title originates from Capodistria, a city on the eastern shore of the Gulf of Venice, now Koper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koper) in Slovenia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia) and the place of origin of Kapodistrias' family before they moved to Corfu in the 13th century where they changed their dogma (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dogma) from Catholic to Orthodox and they soon became hellenized. His family's name in Koper was Vitori or Vittori. His mother's family, the Gonemi, had been listed in the Libro d'Oro since 1606. In 1802 Ioannis Kapodistrias founded an important scientific and social progress organisation in Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corfu), the "National Medical Association", of which he was an energetic member. In 1799, when Corfu was briefly occupied by the forces of Russia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia) and Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), Kapodistrias was appointed chief medical director of the military hospital.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theodore_Kavalliotis (Aromanian)
Theodore Kavalliotis (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Θεόδωρος Αναστασίου Καβαλλιώτης, Romanian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Romanian_language): Teodor Kavalioti, 1718 – 11 August 1789) was a Greek Orthodox (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Orthodox_Church) priest, teacher and a figure of the Greek Enlightenment (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment). He is also known for having drafted an Aromanian-Greek-Albanian dictionary.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigas_Feraios (Aromanian)
Rigas Feraios or Rigas Velestinlis (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Ρήγας Βελεστινλής-Φεραίος, born Αντώνιος Κυριαζής, Antonios Kyriazis; also known as Κωνσταντίνος Ρήγας, Konstantinos or Constantine Rhigas; Serbian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbian_language): Рига од Фере, Riga od Fere; 1757—June 13, 1798) was a Greek writer and revolutionary, an eminent figure of the Greek Enlightenment (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_Enlightenment), remembered as a Greek national hero, the first victim of the uprising against the Ottoman Empire (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Ottoman_Empire) and a forerunner of the Greek War of Independence (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_War_of_Independence).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prominent_Aromanians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

Just speak Greek and have Greek name then you belong to the ancient Greeks, easy and simple.

Elias2
27-01-11, 05:04
Whats your point, any person helping the greek cause was welcome to do so.

I'm going to bed, post more propaganda and I'll get back to you tomorrow. Kalinihta dejavu! ;)

iapetoc
27-01-11, 11:45
dejavu is simple

ask your self, are you a slavic?

then
what time you were slavonized?

you know the answer

DejaVu
28-01-11, 00:52
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia3.jpg
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia1.jpg
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia2.jpg
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/macedoniansgreecejugoslavia4.jpg
Source: “The New World: Problems in Political Geography” by Isaiah Bowman, pages 234 and 260, 1921.
Some information about the author of the book:
Isaiah Bowman, AB, Ph. D. (1878 - 1950) was an American geographer. He was educated at Harvard and Yale where he taught from 1905 to 1915, after which time he became the director of the American Geographical Society, a position he held for 20 years from 1915 to 1935. He was chief territorial adviser to President Woodrow Wilson at the Versailles conference and served the Department of State as territorial adviser in World War Two. Some of his more notable works include:
Forest Physiography (1911)
Well-Drilling Methods (1911)
South America (1915)
The Andes of Southern Peru (1916)
The New World-Problems in Political Geography (1921)

DejaVu
28-01-11, 00:56
Original maps - Colosseum in Rome.

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/rome-colosseum-macedonia-map1.jpg
http://www.macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2009/02/rome-colosseum-macedonia-map2.jpg

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:05
Rigas the Vlach defines who is a Greek 1797!

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/157.png
http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/158.png
http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/159.png
Source: “The Movement for Greek Independence, 1770-1821: A Collection of Documents” by Richard Clogg, 1976.

I hope that you readers will understand that anyone could be a Greek, the rules for becoming a Greek was not that harsh, thus Greeks claiming a 4000 year old ancestry become quite ridiculous.
When they do not even have a 200 year old history.
They are a modern fabrication of the thinkers and philhellenes of the day, which was materialized in absurdum when the “pure” Greek king from Bavaria, King Othon the Hellene started to rule his kingdom.
Which prior to his rule had never existed in history.
Greece is a modern myth.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:08
http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/greece1stconstitution1827.jpg
The first constitution of Greece 1827.

The 1st Constitution of the Greek State, in the year 1827.
??? —> 4. Provinces of Greece are all those that were taken and will be taken by weapons against the Ottoman Dynasty.
1) —> 6. Greeks are:
2) —> a. All those indigenous people of the Greek State who believe in Christ.
3) —> b. All those, believers in Christ, who under the Ottoman slavery, came or they will come to the Greek State to struggle or to reside in it.
4) —> e. All those aliens, who come and enrol as citizens.
NOTE: To become a Greek, it was enough to be a Christian!
This document proves that Greeks have a very short memory. They do not remember how the Greek State was made and also who the modern Greeks are.
Why should we Macedonians have to prove that we are Macedonians since antiquity when the Greeks do not have to prove anything for being Greeks.
The fact is that about 180 years ago anybody who was a Christian in the Greek State became a Greek automatically, why does that not bother the modern Greeks?
You see, if someone was a Jew or a Muslim or a Catholic, he/she was excluded immediately. Let us now ask ourselves what is Greek racism and were did it come from?
Just read the above document and you will know why, Greek is a manufactured ethnicity.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:15
Macedonia was slavic speaking in the 8th - 10th century.

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/419.png

Taken from the book “The Indo-European Languages” edited by Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paul Ramat, 1998, page 419.

All of the Southern Balkans were Slavic speaking areas in the 8th to the 10th century AD, Macedonia and Thessaly was completely Slavic speaking as was Epirus.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:19
Chalkidiki the only Greek speaking part of Ancient Macedonia.

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/230-2.png
Taken from the book “The Indo-European Languages” edited by Anna Giacalone Ramat and Paul Ramat, 1998, page 230.

iapetoc
28-01-11, 01:20
DejaVu wake up?

do the Albanians in Tettovo considered Fyromakedonians?

YES

Are they Slavic

NO

Then what is your problem with Rigas,
Besides Rigas Has NOTHING TO DO with Greek Laws
He was a dreamer
and since you never Heard Rigas
it is considered a Balkan rabel not only Greek
HE EVEN ASK TURKS TO REVOLT FOR DEMOCRACY
The man was against God save Sultan
understand that!!!!!
read His book 1rst and then speak about a Holy man

all Christians and all who helped the revolution and all who came from Greek Father

UNDERSTAND THAT IS THE FIRST STATE THE REVOLT WHEN OTTOMANS WHERE STRONG

AND YOU WERE LICK....

When did you fight Turks??????
Never simply you claim Bulgarians and Albanian Heroes as Yours

so the maps you are showing to me Show Slavic
ARE YOU A SLAVIC DEJAVU???????

Yes or NO

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:22
Macedonia on a very rare map by Munster 1570!

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/europeasaqueen1.jpg

The map was made in 1570 in Basel (Switzerland) by cartographer Sebastian Munster.
Here is a short description about the map; “During the late 16th century, a few map makers created these now highly prized map images, wherein countries and continents were given human or animal forms. Among the earliest examples is this map of Europa by Munster, which appeared in Munster’s Cosmography.”

The lands mentioned are:
HISPANIA, GALLIA, GERMANIA, ITALIA, SICILIA, DANIA, BOHEMIA, VNGARIA, SCLAVONIA, VANDALIA, POLONIA, LITHVANIA, LIVONIA, MACEDONIA, BVLGARIA, MOSCOVIA, MOREA, GRAECIA, SCYTHIA, TARTARIA.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:26
http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/karakasidou-141.png
Taken from “Fields of Wheat, Hills of Blood: Passages to Nationhood in Greek Macedonia, 1870-1990″ by Anastasia N. Karakasidou, Published by University of Chicago Press, 1997, page 141.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:34
National Geographic who were the christian settlers coming to Aegan Macedonia 1925!

http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/nggreatesttrekp582nov1925-1.jpg
http://macedoniantruth.org/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/nggreatesttrekp590nov1925-1.jpg
Taken from the November issue of National Geographic year 1925. The name of the article is “History’s Greatest Trek: Tragedy Stalks Through the Near East as Greece and Turkey Exchange Two Million of Their People” By Melville Chater.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:51
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/NYTIMES_19020324.png
Taken from the New York Times, March 24th 1902.


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/NYTIMES_19021225.png
Taken from the New York Times, December 25th 1902.


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/EveningPostVolumeLIssue2023July1895.png
Taken from the Evening Post, Volume L, Issue 20, 23 July 1895.


http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/EveningPostVolumeLIssue2225July1895.png
Taken from the Evening Post, Volume L, Issue 22, 25 July 1895.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/EveningPostVolumeLIssue2630July1895.png
Taken from the Evening Post, Volume L, Issue 26, 30 July 1895.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/EveningPostVolumeLIssue281August189.png
Taken from the Evening Post, Volume L, Issue 28, 1 August 1895.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/EveningPostVolumeLIssue3712August18.png
Taken from the Evening Post, Volume L, Issue 37, 12 August 1895.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 01:59
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/NYTIMES_19031016.png
Taken from the New York Times, October 16th 1903.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/NYTIMES_19031206.png
Taken from the New York Times, December 6th 1903.

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Taken from the New York Times, February 28th 1904.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:02
Macedonian is the origin of all slavic languages Webster Dictionary year 1967-1969!

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Taken from the Webster Dictionary 1967-1969.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:09
Macedonian one of the Ancient languages of Europe!

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Taken from the book “The Ancient Languages Of Europe” by Roger D. Woodward, 2008, published by Cambridge University Press.

Summary:
This book, derived from the acclaimed Cambridge Encyclopedia of the World’s Ancient Languages, describes the ancient languages of Europe, for the convenience of students and specialists working in that area. Each chapter of the work focuses on an individual language or, in some instances, a set of closely related varieties of a language. Providing a full descriptive presentation, each of these chapters examines the writing system(s), phonology, morphology, syntax and lexicon of that language, and places the language within its proper linguistic and historical context. The volume brings together an international array of scholars, each a leading specialist in ancient language study. While designed primarily for scholars and students of linguistics, this work will prove invaluable to all whose studies take them into the realm of ancient language.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:15
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/NYTIMES-1908_01_20.jpg
Taken from the New York Times, January 20th 1908.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/NYTIMES-1948_07_25.jpg
Taken from the New York Times, July 25th 1948!

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:18
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/NYTIMES-1945_07_09-1.jpg
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Taken from the New York Times, July 9th 1945!

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:22
The Kornikovo Gospel, a bilingual Macedonian-Greek manuscript 1852!

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OU’T PERVO BESHE RETCHTA, I RETCHETA BESHE SOS BOGA, I BOG BESHE RETCHTA. VOA BESHE OT PERVO SOS BOGA. SITE RABOTI ZARDI NIZ LAKARDIATA SE TCHINIA, I BEZ NEGO NESATCHINE NIKOE OT KOLKU SE TCHINIA. OUT NEGO BESHE ZHIVOT – I ZHIVO

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KE VIDOA GOSPODA.
I JESUS PAK MU KAZHA - MIR NA VAS - KE ME POSHTI TATKO, I JAZE POSHTAM NA VAS
I KE RETCHE VOA, DOINA NA NIH, I RETCHE ZEMAITE DUH SFETIJ
I NA KOGOTO GREHOVETAI PROSTITE, SE PROSTENI, I NA KOGO ZAPRITE SE ZAPRENI
I THOMA SE VELISHE BLIZNAK, EDNO OT DVANAISTE, NE BESHE SOS NIH, KOGA DOIDE JESUS. MU VELEA (……..) DRUZITE UTCHENITSOI – VIDOHME GOSPODA
I ON MU RETCHE - AKO NE VIDAM NA RATSETEMU NISIANITAIOT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM PRASTOTMI NA NISIANITE OT KARFIITE, I AKO NE KLADAM RAKATAMI NA REBROTOMU, NEKE VERUVAM
BOGA NIKOI NEKOI PAT NEGO VIDE - EDINORODNIOT SIN, SHTO EI OT PA ZVATA NA TATKOTO, ON GO RAZRETCHE - I VEA EI MARTURIATA NA JOANNA - KOGA POSHTIA

The Konikovo Gospel (Bibl.Patr.Alex. 268 )

A bilingual vernacular Gospel manuscript from Macedonia

(first half of the 19th century)

In the winter of 2003/04, researchers from the University of Helsinki found an interesting bilingual manuscript, written in what is now Greek Macedonia during the first half of the 19th century. It contains a Greek evangeliarium (Gospel lectionary for Sunday services) and its Slavic translation, both written in Greek letters. What makes the manuscript unique is its bilinguality, and the fact that both the Greek and the Slavic text represent the vernacular, not church language. The Slavic part is the oldest known text of greater scope that directly reflects the living dialects of Southern Macedonia. It is also the oldest known Gospel translation in Modern Macedonian.
The beginning of the Slavic text, with corrections by Pavel Božigropski, was printed in Thessaloniki in 1852–1853, and it has been known in Slavic studies as the “Konikovo Gospel” after Pavel’s home village (nowadays known as Dytikó). The newly found manuscript shows, however, that the translation came into being earlier and in a fashion other than has been assumed. The manuscript also reflects the sound structure of the local dialect better than the printed text did. Moreover, after the Second World War the short printed portion of the Konikovo Gospel has not been at the disposal of the scholarly community – it seems that not a single copy has survived, and no scholarly edition was ever prepared.
The manuscript must originally have contained about 124 pages, 74 of which have been preserved. The Slavic part is a valuable source for research into the dialects and more recent history of Macedonian. The Macedonian language is the closest relative of Bulgarian. It did not acquire a definitive standard language until after World War II.
The Greek text in the manuscript represents a vernacular Gospel tradition that originated in the 17th century. During the 19th century, these vernacular Gospels gradually fell out of use in the church.
The first to take notice of the manuscript in the library of the Greek Orthodox Patriarchate of Alexandria and all Africa was Mika Hakkarainen, who is carrying out research in the library on the basis of an agreement between the Partriarchate and the Academy of Finland’s Centre of Excellence “Ancient and Mediaeval Greek Documents, Archives, and Libraries”, led by Jaakko Frösén. In Helsinki, the manuscript is now being studied by a group that includes, besides Hakkarainen, the scholars Nina Graves, Jouko Lindstedt (research group leader), Juhani Nuorluoto and Max Wahlström (all four from the Department of Slavonic and Baltic Languages and Literatures, University of Helsinki), as well as Maria Basdekis and Martti Leiwo (both from the Department of Classical Philology, University of Helsinki).
The Helsinki research group is preparing a scholarly edition of the Konikovo Gospel in a close collaboration with a Macedonian research group, led by Prof. Ljudmil Spasov from the University of Skopje.
In 2004, Victor Friedman, Professor of Slavic and Balkan Linguistics at the University of Chicago, wrote about the manuscript as follows:

The significance of the Konikovo Gospel for the study of Macedonian cannot be overestimated. At the same time, this Gospel will also contribute to the study of colloquial Modern Greek. In the case of Macedonian, the southern dialect of the Lower Vardar (or Voden-Kukuš) type represented in the manuscript is one that is in most urgent need of documentation and study. Owing to the domination of the Church Slavonic tradition on the territory where Macedonian was spoken from the Middle Ages until the nineteenth century, we have very little manuscript evidence documenting the changes that took place in the spoken language during that crucial period. Moreover, such documentation as we do have comes mostly from manuscript traditions produced in Macedonia’s southwestern periphery (Ohrid) and the northeastern region (Kratovo). The southeastern dialects of the type represented by the Konikovo Gospel are thus very important in helping us complete our picture of the development of Macedonian. At the same time, because the Lower Vardar dialects were almost all spoken in a region which was assigned to Greece at the end of the Balkan Wars in 1913, one in which hundreds of thousands of Greek- and Turkish-speaking refugees were settled as a result of the exchange of populations between Greece and Turkey 1922-23, one which was the focus of Greek attempts to create a homogenous nation-state by stamping out minority languages during the inter-war period, and one which saw the most serious fighting during the Greek Civil War and from which thousands of Macedonian-speakers fled after 1948, our data on these dialects is extremely limited. There are very few speakers of the dialect left in the region. In addition to the vicissitudes of war and persecution which reduced such data concerning these dialects as has come down to us, there is the additional complication that activists from this region who sought to promote a Macedonian ethnic and national consciousness wrote in a different dialect — the West Central (Veles-Prilep-Bitola-Brod) one — as this was, by general consensus, even at the beginning of the twentieth century, the most distinctive and at the same time most readily comprehensible to the largest number of people. The Konikovo Gospel is thus an extremely rare and precious testimony both to Macedonian literary activity and at the same time a valuable resource for an inadequately attested but linguistically important Macedonian dialect.

Publications by the Helsinki group


[Lindstedt] Lindstet, Jouko. 2006. Za istorijata na Konikovskoto evangelie. Pp. 237–245 in Predavanja na XXXVIII meg’unaroden seminar za makedonski jazik, literatura i kultura (Ohrid, 3.VIII–21.VIII 2005 g.). Skopje: Univerzitet “Sv. Kiril i Metodij”, Meg’unaroden seminar za makedonski jazik, literatura i kultura.
Nuorluoto, Juhani. 2003. Rakopisot na Konikovskoto evangelie kako izvor za fonološki opis na egejskite makedonski govori. Makedonska akademija na naukite i umetnostite, Oddelenie za lingvistika i literaturna nauka 28:2, pp. 69–79.
Nuorluoto, Juhani. 2005a. Die Konikovo-Evangeliumshandschrift: Ein neuer Fund. Pp. 327–340 in Stjepan Damjanović (ed.), Drugi Hercigonjin zbornik. Zagreb: Hrvatska sveučilišna naklada.
Nuorluoto, Juhani. 2005b. Nov naod: Rakopisot na Konikovskoto evangelie. Pp. 233–237 in XXXI naučna konferencija na XXXVII Meg’unaroden [seminar] za makedonski jazik, literatura i kultura (Ohrid, 16–17 avgust 2004 g.). Skopje: Univerzitet “Sv. Kiril i Metodij”, Meg’unaroden seminar za makedonski jazik, literatura i kultura.
Nuorluoto, Juhani. 2006. Grafemskite odliki vo rakopisot na Konikovskoto evangelie. Makedonski jazik 56 (2005), pp. 49–53.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:35
http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa260/Piperkata/NYTIMES-1962_02_18.jpg
From New York Times, February 18th 1962.

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From New York Times, November 15th 1946.

DejaVu
28-01-11, 02:37
On October 1981 national elections in Greece, PASOK (The Panhellenic Socialist Movement, a centre-left political party) won a landslide victory with 48% of the votes, capturing 173 seats in the Greek Parliament. One of the first things on this new government’s agenda was to initiate a campaign to force the population into believing that there is no Macedonian nation and to generally remove the term Macedonia or Macedonians from use. This is the document they issued to that affect.
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Translation into English:
HELENIC REPUBLIC Top Secret
MINISTRY OF PUBLIC SECURITY
NATIONAL SECURITY SERVICE
Athens, 16th February, 1982
Number of protocol 6502/7-3042?
INTRODUCTION
a) The Skopians’ activities for the autonomy of Macedonia may be efficiently confronted mainly by wiping out the use of the idiom, in the regions near the borders. This opinion is based on the realizations that also other regions that in older times were center of “Macedonism”, like Kastoria, are no hit by the Skopian propaganda, because there the use of the idiom has been almost wiped out.
b) This element by itself would be enough to exclude any thoughts of repatriation of the P/R (political refugees) who now reside in Yugoslavia and who have been brought up with the “Macedonian idea”, the “Macedonian language and culture”, independently of their participation or not to the organizations SNOF, NOF and activities take for detaching Greek territories during the period 1946-1949
c) As for evidence it is imperative to:
a. The creation of a state institution that will depend from the Prefectures of the regions near the borders, lined with the suitable and specially trained to the “Plot against Macedonia” subject, personnel. This institution will engage itself only with this subject, with the supervision of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs and will collaborate closely, but in secret with the Security Authorities and all the Public Services (Tax office, Schools, Army, Church, etc)
b. In the public services and especially in the educational institutions the employees who will be in service have to be ignorant of the local idiom.
c. The establishment of special enlightenment seminaries, for all the public service employees and the clergy who are in service in the sensitive region of Macedonia.
d. The establishment of motivations for the obligatory residence of the public servants and other employees, in the quarters of their service (example: payment of the rent, extra pay, etc.)
e. Establishment of the Cultural Association, like “ARISTOTELIS” in Florina and economic help to them, for the realization of events and the publishing of books, newspapers, magazines, etc. And afterwards these will be sent to the Diaspora abroad who has origins from the regions of the senders. This will boost their national sentiment and they will be protected from the anti-Hellenic propaganda that is been practiced by S/M (Slavmacedonians) organizations.
f. Insertion of various obstacles (non-recognition of diplomats, postponement of military service, etc.) for the Greek students who wish to study in Skopje.
g. Marking in each village of persons who due to their kin bounds and their personality influence a large circle of co-villagers and with any means (even with money payments) get close to them and use them properly so they will behave as the fighters of the use of the idiom in their circle. To this direction a very positive and effective role can be that of the Youngerss of the political parties, by the judgement and coordination of the Government, when a between parties agreement will be reached.
h. Recruitment in the Armed Forces, in Police Bodies in the public services and Organisations of employees with origins from Florina region, by exception, and their obligatory location in other areas of the country.
i. The encouragement, by the leadership of the Army of meetings and marriages of Army officers, who are on duty, there and have origins abroad, with women that speak the idiom.
THE CHIEF DIMITRIS KAPELARIS ANT/GOS