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geiserich
22-01-11, 06:54
Southwest germany is one of the centers of celtic settlement in Hallstatt period. It is also the possible origin of R-U152 (R1b1b2a1b4).
The language in this region is a german dialect with many words, which are not related to any other IE-language.

Examples:

Zorna : big basket
Kratta: normal basket
Hafa: pot
Hag: fence
Hagga: bull
Wadel: tail
Buzzeli: baby

Have anyone an explanation for these words.
Origin: Germanic, Celtic, IE, or preIE?

spongetaro
22-01-11, 15:37
The Raetians might have something to do with it. They appear as one of the most powerful alpine tribe according to several text. Some scholars have linked their language to Etruscan. It seems that with the arrival of Cisalpine Gaul circa 400 BC they moved northward. The Imperial province of Raetia in the Roman empire included switzerland, Tyrol and a German part south of the Danube.
Also around the Alps, there is hotspot of Haplogroup G

geiserich
22-01-11, 17:16
Can someone give me a link to a etruscian dictionary.
I want to prove the theory of spongetaro.

Regulus
22-01-11, 17:32
Interesting - Etruscans called themselves Raesena or Rasenna, so that is not far off from the Raetians, which would be our name for them. The Raetians name for themselves could very possibly be closer or even the same. I would like to see more on this.



By the way - great name! Did you pick Gaeserich from the Vandal King?

how yes no 2
22-01-11, 20:43
The Raetians might have something to do with it. They appear as one of the most powerful alpine tribe according to several text. Some scholars have linked their language to Etruscan. It seems that with the arrival of Cisalpine Gaul circa 400 BC they moved northward. The Imperial province of Raetia in the Roman empire included switzerland, Tyrol and a German part south of the Danube.
Also around the Alps, there is hotspot of Haplogroup G

Good point.
From what I can see based on list of important cities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia
Raetia included Swiss, complete south Germany (not just soutwest Germany) and north Italy, west most part of Austria....

in fact, this makes me wonder whether alternative name of Serbs (Rascians see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raci and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia) may in fact origin not from some link with Etruscans but from being in most east parts of Raetia province

historical source Byzantine emperor claims that Serbs settled Balkan from white Serbia which they call Boika (which likely has meaning land of Boii) where they originally dwelt... according to his words this land of Boika is beyond Hungary (called Turkey by Bizantine historians due to Hun and Avar settlements as this was all much before Turks settled in Asia minor) and neigbours Francia and white Croatia...this all points to Bohemia which is named after Boii tribe...



The Serbs are descended from the unbaptized Serbs, also called 'white', who live beyond Turkey in a place called by them Boiki, where their neighbour is Francia, as is also Great Croatia, the unbaptized, also called 'white': in this place, then, these Serbs also originally dwelt. But when two brothers succeeded their father in the rule of Serbia, one of them, taking one half of the folk, claimed the protection of Heraclius, the emperor of the Romans, and the same emperor Heraclius received him and gave him a place in the province of Thessalonica to settle in, namely Serbia, which from that time has acquired this denomination....

http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&hl=de&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Bohemia is hotspot of I2a2

Strabo among people of Bohemia also names Sibini..



Here, too, is the Hercynian Forest,15 and also the tribes of the Suevi, some of which dwell inside the forest, as, for instance, the tribes of the Coldui,16 in whose territory is Boihaemum,17 the domain of Marabodus, the place whither he caused to migrate, not only several other peoples, but in particular the Marcomanni, his fellow-tribesmen; for after his return from Rome this man, who before had been only a private citizen, was placed in charge of the affairs of state, for, as a youth he had been at Rome and had enjoyed the favor of Augustus, and on his return he took the rulership and acquired, in addition to the peoples aforementioned, the Lugii (a large tribe), the Zumi, the Butones, the Mugilones, the Sibini,18 and also the Semnones, a large tribe of the Suevi themselves. However, while some of the tribes of the Suevi dwell inside the forest, as I was saying, others dwell outside of it, and have a common boundary with the Getae.19 Now as for the tribe of the Suevi,20 it is the largest, for it extends from the Rhenus to the Albis;
quoted from
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=7:chapter= 1&highlight=sibini

So, in Strabo's time Marcomanni (or people led by Marabodus) rule over Bohemia and over several tribes among them large tribe Luigii and also Sibini

Sibini could be a tribe of proto-Serbs that might have later departed for Balkan, as in Serbian language a word for a Serb is "Srbin" ... while Luigi is likely about Lugii who may later gave people known as Lusatians/Sorbs/Wends



now, back to Rhaetia

if we look closest Raetian town to Bohemia, its name is Sorviodurum today Straubing ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing)

thus, Serbs lived in east most part of Raetia which partly overlapped with Bohemia, but were not Raetians (G haplogroup and different language)

this is explainable by Vindelicia being added to Raetia province in 1st century AD....


At first Raetia formed a distinct province, but towards the end of the 1st century AD Vindelicia was added to it; hence Tacitus (Germania, 41) could speak of Augusta Vindelicorum (Augsburg) as "a colony of the province of Raetia". The whole province (including Vindelicia) was at first under a military prefect, then under a procurator; it had no standing army quartered in it but relied on its own native troops and militia for protection until the 2nd century AD.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia

Vindelici name is related to Celtic word "white", while if you look up in Byzantine source Serbs of Bohemia were also called "white"...

Vindelici is obviously related to Vind/Veneti tribal name...
Venetoi = latin wind gods
Wend = Germanic word for Sorbs and Slavs in general

Jordanes indicates that early Slavs are populous race of Veneti


in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html


I have already shown that spread of early Slavs does match spread of I2a2 and not of R1a.... and gave other clues that Veneti (who origin from Paphlagonia Eneti who were kicked out of Asia minor after Troyan war) were I2a2...

now, this is all in accordance with known facts about Vindelicia


The material culture of its inhabitants the Vindelici was La Tène. The ethnic origin of the Vindelici is not sure. Whether they spoke a Celtic (i.e. Gaulish), Germanic, or other Indo-European language is unclear. (A possible etymology of their name includes a Celtic element *windo-, cognate to Irish find- 'white'.[1]) However, according to a classical source, Servius' commentary on Virgil's Aeneid,[2] the Vindelicians were Liburnians, themselves most probably related to the Veneti.[3][4] (A reference in Virgil[2] seems to refer to the Veneti as Liburnians, namely that the "innermost realm of the Liburnians" must have been the goal at which Antenor is said to have arrived.) Thus, it seems that the ancient Liburnians may have encompassed a wide swathe of the Eastern Alps, from Vindelicia, through Noricum, to the Dalmatian coast.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia



Interesting - Etruscans called themselves Raesena or Rasenna, so that is not far off from the Raetians, which would be our name for them. The Raetians name for themselves could very possibly be closer or even the same. I would like to see more on this.

Raetians are considered related to Etruscan

Little is known of the origin or history of the Raetians, who appear in the records as one of the most powerful and warlike of the Alpine tribes. Livy states distinctly[1] that they were of Etruscan origin (a belief that is favored by Niebuhr and Mommsen). A tradition reported by Justin[2] and Pliny the Elder[3] affirmed that they were a portion of that people who had settled in the plains of the Po and were driven into the mountains by the invading Gauls, when they assumed the name of "Raetians" from an eponymous leader Raetus; a more probable derivation, however, is from Celtic rait ("mountain land"). Even if their Etruscan origin be accepted, at the time when the land became known to the Romans, Celtic tribes were already in possession of it and had amalgamated so completely with the original inhabitants that, generally speaking, the Raetians of later times may be regarded as a Celtic people, although non-Celtic tribes (Lepontii, Euganei) were settled among them.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetia

geiserich
23-01-11, 04:53
swai did take the name of the famous king geiserich.

But i don`t think that the are swabian words are etruscic.

I rather think this is PRE-IE, perhaps neolithic.

The most special swabian words are female: little children, cooking , baby and garden

how yes no 2
23-01-11, 13:56
swai did take the name of the famous king geiserich.

But i don`t think that the are swabian words are etruscic.

I rather think this is PRE-IE, perhaps neolithic.

The most special swabian words are female: little children, cooking , baby and garden
it could have been pre-IE language of Europe...
can you write more words of non-IE origin from southwest Germany?

but, look at what google (translate & search) gives me:

Wadel: tail / litvanian uodega
Kratta: normal basket / litvanian kraitė
Hagga bull / estonian härg
Hag fence / dutch hek, haag /danish hegn

(btw. fence Basque Hesiaren / Azerbaijani Hasar)

Hafa: pot is likely derived from afroasiatic cognate Kada..word Kada also exist in Serbian in meaning (bathing) tub...


For example Proto-Semitic *k'ad-ah- "vessel", found in Arabic kadah "drinking bowl, cup, goblet, glass, tumbler"; Sabaean m-kdh(m,n) "cup; Ethiopic / Geez kadho "vessel, gourd", ma-kdeht "jar, jug, bucket"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'adad- "vessel, gourd; Oromo k'odaa "vessel, gourd; Egyptian qd "pot"; Lowland East Cushitic *k'od- "receptical"; Oromo k'odaa "receptacle"; West Chadic *k'wad- "calabash"; Dangla koda "pot" gives Proto-Afro-Asiatic *k'ud-/*k'od- "Vessel, pot"[8].
http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Afro-Asiatic_languages

geiserich
23-01-11, 17:39
Thank you how yes no for your response.

So a lot of hits in the baltics. (Kratta, Wadel, Hagge)

Hag: fence is possibly germanic

Hafa: pot could be afro-asiatic. A relic of the first farmers.

Most male words (weapons, hunting, agriculture, weather) are germanic.
But female words (little children, cooking , baby and garden) are often different of german. Is this a coincidence or does it represent a relic of an older population.



I can give some more special swabian words:

Zinka: nose
Beig: heap of wood
Häs: clothes

schira: put wood on a fire
triala: when a hildren eats, some food don`t find the way to the mouth
motza: little children play with dirt and water

helinga: silent
welaweg: probable

All this words are totally different of german.

geiserich
30-01-11, 08:25
Here is my opinion:

In the neolithic south-west germany was dominated by the first farmers and their languages. Prominent haplogroups were E, J and relics of mesolithic I.
In the bronze age IE-warbands conquered south-west germany. (Mostly R1b1b2a1 and G). In a very short time the main subclades R1b1b2a1a, R1b1b2a1b*, R1b1b2a1b4 and R1b1b2ba1b5 came into life and spread over Europe.
Special Swabian words are therefore relics of mesolithic (Hg I) and Neolithic (E,J).

Any thoughts about this?

how yes no 2
27-02-11, 04:08
Buzzeli comes from Celtic..
in Breton language child = bugel

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Breton_Swadesh_list

Taranis
27-02-11, 16:01
Buzzeli comes from Celtic..
in Breton language child = bugel
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Breton_Swadesh_list

Hard to say. I'm not sure how "g" would yield "zz" (which is actually pronounced "ts"), but that's not the only problem. Another problem is that cognates of the word "Bugel" are unattested in other Celtic languages - if there were it would be possible to reconstruct what the original form was like. It would be helpful if there were known cognates in at least Welsh and/or Irish, but I could not find any.

EDIT: In my opinion the Latin word "Bucellus" (biscuit, cake, morsel) is a far more likely candidate, especially because Latin "c" often yields the pronounciation "ts" in German (for example "Caesar", which is actually pronounced 'tsɛːzar' ).

Mzungu mchagga
27-02-11, 22:40
Mmh, with some imagination I can find other German associations of some of these words:

hag - Hecke [engl. hedge]

Zinka - in Lower German dialects "Zinken" also stand for big nose

Wadel - reminds me of the High German verb "wedeln" [engl. to wag]

Buzzeli - now that is really interesting! Southwest Germany and Switzerland have the tales of the mythical goblin "Butzemann". I've read somewhere that this child-frightener corresponds to the Celtic "Puk" or later English "Bogeyman". So it might also trivialize this "Butze", meaning "little goblin", or in fact it is Celtic for "little child"...

Mzungu mchagga
27-02-11, 22:59
Oh I just found something another interesting:
bozen or bessen [middle high german] - to make noise

I think that's it! That would also explain "Butzemann".

haithabu
22-04-11, 00:24
I can give some more special swabian words:

welaweg: probable

All this words are totally different of german.


How about vielleicht ("maybe") or English belike ("probably")?

zanipolo
22-04-11, 01:01
Buzzeli comes from Celtic..
in Breton language child = bugel

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Breton_Swadesh_list

What does all this mean.........in the venet a child is buxaro , since venet letter x is a zed sound, does it mean its celtic?

Playing with words can lead people astray in finding the truth

how yes no 2
23-04-11, 01:04
What does all this mean.........in the venet a child is buxaro , since venet letter x is a zed sound, does it mean its celtic?
is it in Venetic or Venetian? as far as we know those are 2 completely unrelated languages....
both had some Celtic influence, so it is not excluded...

btw. word could have passed in another direction as well....Breton word may origin from ancient Venetic as Celtic Veneti did live in Britanny...


Playing with words can lead people astray in finding the truth
no, playing with words is no problem...
being biased and engaging in wishful thinking is what usually leads people astray in finding the truth...if you want the truth, choose no sides...

zanipolo
23-04-11, 01:19
is it in Venetic or Venetian? as far as we know those are 2 completely unrelated languages....
both had some Celtic influence, so it is not excluded...

btw. word could have passed in another direction as well....Breton word may origin from ancient Venetic as Celtic Veneti did live in Britanny...




It older than the word Wend which is from only 700AD

The topic was about high german which is in the middle ages

How old do you think venet is?

The youngest language in Italy is Italian from the 13th century

Venet started in the 5th to 6th century, below is the first recorded text

Se pareba boves, alba pratalia araba
albo versorio teneba, negro semen seminaba

boves = oxen
pratalia = fields

how yes no 2
23-04-11, 03:15
zanipolo, again, we speak of Veneti on unrelated thread....
find thread about Veneti or open new one...

the word is thus from Venetian and not from Venetic...


It older than the word Wend which is from only 700AD

The topic was about high german which is in the middle ages

How old do you think venet is?

The youngest language in Italy is Italian from the 13th century

Venet started in the 5th to 6th century, below is the first recorded text

Se pareba boves, alba pratalia araba
albo versorio teneba, negro semen seminaba

boves = oxen
pratalia = fields

text above is known as Veronese riddle...


The Veronese Riddle is a riddle, apparently half-Italian, half-Latin, written on the margin of a parchment, on the Verona Orational, probably in the 8th or early 9th century, by a Catholic monk from Verona, a city in the Veneto region, in Northern Italy. It was a very popular riddle in the Middle Ages and has survived into dialects to date.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronese_Riddle

Wends is Germanic word used to denote Slavic people... it is older then 700 AD
Jordanes writes his Getica around 551 AD,,,there he claims that early Slavs are from the race of Veneti


In the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html
Jordanes - The origin and deeds of Goths
year 551 AD


there are arguments that name Wends was initially used for Baltic people...
However note the mention of Aesti in text above....Aesti are clearly ancestors of Estonians...thus Balts...however they are not mentioned as Veneti by Jordanes...

thus, 2nd century AD mention of Ouenedai on Baltic shores in Ptolemy's Geographica is not likely about Balts either...

afterall, Finish people even today use name Venäläiset for Russians... Finish had continuity of contact with Balts... so, why would they use for Russians the name that should be used for Balts?

zanipolo
23-04-11, 04:46
zanipolo, again, we speak of Veneti on unrelated thread....
find thread about Veneti or open new one...

the word is thus from Venetian and not from Venetic...



text above is known as Veronese riddle...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veronese_Riddle

Wends is Germanic word used to denote Slavic people... it is older then 700 AD
Jordanes writes his Getica around 551 AD,,,there he claims that early Slavs are from the race of Veneti


http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html (http://people.ucalgary.ca/%7Evandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html)
Jordanes - The origin and deeds of Goths
year 551 AD


there are arguments that name Wends was initially used for Baltic people...
However note the mention of Aesti in text above....Aesti are clearly ancestors of Estonians...thus Balts...however they are not mentioned as Veneti by Jordanes...

thus, 2nd century AD mention of Ouenedai on Baltic shores in Ptolemy's Geographica is not likely about Balts either...

afterall, Finish people even today use name Venäläiset for Russians... Finish had continuity of contact with Balts... so, why would they use for Russians the name that should be used for Balts?

You really need to stop using wikipedia as your main reference, Wikipedia is written by non scholars . The only way to use wikipedia is to use the attached references and any other references from then on. Once it is established that wikipedia are correct, then sure, wikipedia is a nice compact site to link.

so this link
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=1piMMqjAf1MC&pg=PA523&lpg=PA523&dq=Veronese+Riddle&source=bl&ots=02qMnWu0oE&sig=Mi_bsQvclyB4SKxFYMeFcjFNomM&hl=en&ei=BSmyTZ7IDpD8vQOI17SYBw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CFMQ6AEwCA#v=onepage&q=Veronese%20Riddle&f=false
is better

Note wikipedia, call everthing and everyone by todays nationality, so vivaldi is italian instead of venetian. Ciskens is dutch instead of frisian. Captain cook is british instead of welsh, charles the bold is french instead of burgundian, wikipedia just exclude places that do not exist anymore and make them fit to todays borders. I am waiting for the day they say frederick the great is polish instead of Prussian.
To conclude, there where truly no-italians in the modern sense before 1860. Are there still yogoslavs, no. wikipedia changes historical people and places to fit today's nationalities ( unless they are from antiquity). I woder what Tito will become.

The initial article was about the High german text from the middle ages. I do not know why you brought up ancient stuff.

As for you Jordanes, I already said he was wrong, because as you said, there was no slavs in ancient venetic ( italy ), so, since venetic became extinct before Christ, then Jordanes references refer to someone else and not the adriatic veneti.

As for wikipedia using the term italian in text. Historically everyone knows that when italy became a nation in 1860, there was only 630000 speakers of italian out of a population of 25 million. Wikipedia seem to mislead people in bracketing a "very Minor " language and referencing everything in modern italy from the end of the roman empire until 1860 to italian, when you know as well as I know that the regional languages of Italy came from the Latin ( known as Vulgar Latin. these languages are over 500 years older than italian. A language introduced by Dante from a mix of many regional languages to aid the merchants and artisans in their trade, because the nobility still spkoe Latin to each other.

If you want to see old Venetian text ( 63 pages) . Its to do with Treviso Arithmetic , the first arthimetic in the west
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treviso_Arithmetic
See bottom of page for the link

I again say to you, how old do you think Venet is?

Maciamo
26-04-11, 17:28
Southwest germany is one of the centers of celtic settlement in Hallstatt period. It is also the possible origin of R-U152 (R1b1b2a1b4).
The language in this region is a german dialect with many words, which are not related to any other IE-language.

Examples:

Zorna : big basket
Kratta: normal basket
Hafa: pot
Hag: fence
Hagga: bull
Wadel: tail
Buzzeli: baby

Have anyone an explanation for these words.
Origin: Germanic, Celtic, IE, or preIE?

I was wondering the same thing (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?23990-Walloon-a-Germanised-Romance-language&p=350597&viewfull=1#post350597) about the Walloon dialect of French in Belgium. Walloon is a Romance language, with a considerable Germanic influence, but quite a few basic words do not seem to have an IE origin. Either they are neologisms (words invented by the locals that do not come from any other language), or they are vestiges from some pre-IE language. In the latter case, the most obvious source language would be the one spoken by the Chalcolithic people of the Seine-Oise-Marne culture (the last pre-IE culture in southern Belgium).

spongetaro
26-04-11, 20:03
I was wondering the same thing (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?23990-Walloon-a-Germanised-Romance-language&p=350597&viewfull=1#post350597) about the Walloon dialect of French in Belgium. Walloon is a Romance language, with a considerable Germanic influence, but quite a few basic words do not seem to have an IE origin. Either they are neologisms (words invented by the locals that do not come from any other language), or they are vestiges from some pre-IE language. In the latter case, the most obvious source language would be the one spoken by the Chalcolithic people of the Seine-Oise-Marne culture (the last pre-IE culture in southern Belgium).


In this site (in French) , the Seine-Oise-Marne culture is said to be an extent of the Michelsberg culture (IE) but it is also written that the first IE invasion in France failed
http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/zzz.htm

http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/z10.htm

Maciamo
28-04-11, 09:44
In this site (in French) , the Seine-Oise-Marne culture is said to be an extent of the Michelsberg culture (IE) but it is also written that the first IE invasion in France failed
http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/zzz.htm

http://atil.pagesperso-orange.fr/atil/z10.htm

Very interesting maps, thanks !

zanipolo
27-05-11, 09:24
Since Vindelica was known as people from Liburnians ( illyrians) from the bronze ages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

plus innsbruck ( western austria) had Illyrian urns and settlements

http://americanairlines.wcities.com/austria_innsbruck_120?guide=historical-background

With the Liburniians being a Venetic tribe.

Is it reasonable to think that prior to the Celtic migration into Vindelica ( southern Germany) , that these Illyrians had R-U152 ?

If this is the case and the celtic named the people of southern germany, Vindelicans, is it also correct to say they named other illyrians who they met by different celtic names ?


Since southern germany and western austria had illyrian settlements it would be fare to say that the Raetians where also illyrian

Taranis
27-05-11, 10:25
Since Vindelica was known as people from Liburnians ( illyrians) from the bronze ages
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia

plus innsbruck ( western austria) had Illyrian urns and settlements

http://americanairlines.wcities.com/austria_innsbruck_120?guide=historical-background

With the Liburniians being a Venetic tribe.

Is it reasonable to think that prior to the Celtic migration into Vindelica ( southern Germany) , that these Illyrians had R-U152 ?

If this is the case and the celtic named the people of southern germany, Vindelicans, is it also correct to say they named other illyrians who they met by different celtic names ?


Since southern germany and western austria had illyrian settlements it would be fare to say that the Raetians where also illyrian

Actually, there is no evidence for any Celtic migration into Vindelicia (from where would it come?), primarily because Vindelicia was already part of the coreland of the Celtic Hallstatt Culture. The only evidence that the Vindelicians were "Liburnians" come from Maurus Servius Honoratus (4th century AD), who claimed this about the Vindelici.

The Vindelici were, for all purposes, a Celtic people. This is very clear when you take a look at town names ("Cambodunum") and sub-tribes ("Briganti", "Licates"). The only reason, in my opinion, why the Romans probably did not consider them Celtic was their geographic position: they didn't live in Gaul.

zanipolo
27-05-11, 10:38
Actually, there is no evidence for any Celtic migration into Vindelicia (from where would it come?), primarily because Vindelicia was already part of the coreland of the Celtic Hallstatt Culture. The only evidence that the Vindelicians were "Liburnians" come from Maurus Servius Honoratus (4th century AD), who claimed this about the Vindelici.

The Vindelici were, for all purposes, a Celtic people. This is very clear when you take a look at town names ("Cambodunum") and sub-tribes ("Briganti", "Licates"). The only reason, in my opinion, why the Romans probably did not consider them Celtic was their geographic position: they didn't live in Gaul.

Ok on your expalnation of the Vindelicians, what about the many internet sites of illyrian urns and settlements in innsbruck austria. The illyrians must have benn there prior to the celtic migration. then again the celts and illyrians mixed very easily in pannonia and noricum to name just 2 areas.

would the celts have any "neighbourly" traces of similar DNA ?

Taranis
27-05-11, 10:46
Ok on your expalnation of the Vindelicians, what about the many internet sites of illyrian urns and settlements in innsbruck austria. The illyrians must have benn there prior to the celtic migration. then again the celts and illyrians mixed very easily in pannonia and noricum to name just 2 areas.

would the celts have any "neighbourly" traces of similar DNA ?

Actually, in my opinion, it just makes little sense: people talk about Bronze Age urns there, these were part of the Urnfield Culture, and an association explicitly with the Illyrians is somewhat speculative in my opinion.

Beyond that, it's even more speculative to ponder about the DNA.

zanipolo
27-05-11, 12:12
Actually, in my opinion, it just makes little sense: people talk about Bronze Age urns there, these were part of the Urnfield Culture, and an association explicitly with the Illyrians is somewhat speculative in my opinion.

Beyond that, it's even more speculative to ponder about the DNA.


this site disputes what you say

http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

Taranis
27-05-11, 14:29
this site disputes what you say

http://www.davidkfaux.org/Cimbri-Chronology.pdf

What? :startled: It says a lot (and a lot that I absolutely disagree with, for instance the idea that the Cimbri were Celtic!), but it nowhere talks about associating bronze age urns in Austria or Bavaria with the Illyrians. Sorry, nope.

In any case, Illyrian name evidence only extends around the approximate area of modern Croatia/Bosnia. It also stands to reason that the Pannonians, who inhabited the basin of the same name before the Celts arrived, were related with the Illyrians. However, if you go further north or west, there is no Illyrian name evidence whatsoever.

Also, to be honest, I have no idea what you are trying to argue there.

zanipolo
27-05-11, 23:04
Also, to be honest, I have no idea what you are trying to argue there.

I am trying to figure if there is a link with the historical settlements, graves and potteries of illyrians in austria ( innsbruck ) with the celtic migration there. A link with either DNA , linguistically or whatever.
The only link or "union" between these people seems to be in Pannonia and Noricum. the scordisci and taurisci tribes to name just 2.

It is a well known fact that a common language changes from one border of that language to the opposite border. As an example , even in the small area of the Venetian republic around the end of the 18th century ( and it is still current) there are 7 dialects of the ventian language. granted 95% is the same, but this is due to the size of the linguistic area in question.
In the ancient world, a celt from brittany would have a greater percentage of difference with a celt from austria. If we consider this to be true, then the illyrian and celtic unions would have formed/created a variation to the language of the celts as well as a mix of peoples via marriages or purely from settlements.

If illyrians where in innsbruck in the bronze age and the celts migrated there, then it would seem that certain strains of DNA would have emerged.

Greek writers , be it myth or fact have associated the illyrians with the celts

Taranis
27-05-11, 23:35
I am trying to figure if there is a link with the historical settlements, graves and potteries of illyrians in austria ( innsbruck ) with the celtic migration there. A link with either DNA , linguistically or whatever.
The only link or "union" between these people seems to be in Pannonia and Noricum. the scordisci and taurisci tribes to name just 2.

Have you considered the possibility that the link you gave declared the bronze age urns ad-hoc as "Illyrian"? I'm saying that primarily because. A lot of older literature tries to link western Hallstatt with the Celts and eastern Hallstatt with the Illyrians, however I think that this doesn't hold up in any way.


It is a well known fact that a common language changes from one border of that language to the opposite border. As an example , even in the small area of the Venetian republic around the end of the 18th century ( and it is still current) there are 7 dialects of the ventian language. granted 95% is the same, but this is due to the size of the linguistic area in question.
In the ancient world, a celt from brittany would have a greater percentage of difference with a celt from austria. If we consider this to be true, then the illyrian and celtic unions would have formeed a variation to the language as well as a mix of peoples via marriages or purely from settlements.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say there.


If illyrians where in innsbruck in the bronze age and the celts migrated there, then it would seem that certain strains of DNA would have emerged.

This is extremely speculative, and I have no idea how you would try to test this. Especially, it's impossible to say what language the Bronze Age population of said area spoke. However, it's clear that by the time that the region is mentioned by Mediterranean writers, it's firmly Celtic.

So, it's also pretty unclear if you could already speak of an "Illyrian" language to begin with in the Bronze Age, and it doesn't help that the language is only poorly attested.


Greek writers , be it myth or fact have associated the illyrians with the celts

Well, it's clear that the Celtc invaded the western Balkans and partially absorbed the local Illyrian tribes.

What also eludes me is what this has to do with the thread, anyways.

St Delcambre
28-05-11, 00:09
R1b1b2a1b4. Wow, I can't believe how deep R is sublcaded while I'm still stuck with a stupid asterisk next to my haplogroup. :laughing:

sparkey
28-05-11, 00:30
R1b1b2a1b4. Wow, I can't believe how deep R is sublcaded while I'm still stuck with a stupid asterisk next to my haplogroup. :laughing:

Although, to be fair, I1* is only something like 1500 years older than R1b1b2a1b4 in terms of TMRCA. R1b in Europe has a really nice tree structure... Haplogroup I is much more well-pruned.

iapetoc
28-05-11, 01:11
Southwest germany is one of the centers of celtic settlement in Hallstatt period. It is also the possible origin of R-U152 (R1b1b2a1b4).
The language in this region is a german dialect with many words, which are not related to any other IE-language.

Examples:

Zorna : big basket
Kratta: normal basket
Hafa: pot
Hag: fence
Hagga: bull
Wadel: tail
Buzzeli: baby

Have anyone an explanation for these words.
Origin: Germanic, Celtic, IE, or preIE?


yes
Kratta can be conected with Greek κρατηρ krater a big enough pottery to place goods
Hagga bull can be conected with Greek Αγελας agelas cow
Hafa can be conected with Greek Κοφινος (basket made by branches) English coffin

Zorna I don't know if is connected with Soros Σωρος (Stock pile)



Thank you how yes no for your response.

So a lot of hits in the baltics. (Kratta, Wadel, Hagge)

Hag: fence is possibly germanic

Hafa: pot could be afro-asiatic. A relic of the first farmers.

Most male words (weapons, hunting, agriculture, weather) are germanic.
But female words (little children, cooking , baby and garden) are often different of german. Is this a coincidence or does it represent a relic of an older population.



I can give some more special swabian words:

Zinka: nose
Beig: heap of wood
Häs: clothes

schira: put wood on a fire
triala: when a hildren eats, some food don`t find the way to the mouth
motza: little children play with dirt and water

helinga: silent
welaweg: probable

All this words are totally different of german.

motza exist in Greek, as μουντζουρα muntzur-a
mutzura is any tide in the skin, when i play or work with mud or coals i get mutzures

I don't know if triala is connected with Greek trella Τρελλα (mad)
τρελλος trellos is the any kind of brain not contact with logic,
people that can't drive food to mouth
or no reason puking food people considered trelloi

from the above
Krater
Kofinos
Agelas
exist in ancient Greek

mutzura is a public word

Kofinos is after an ancient metric system
the choinix or phoinix was a metric system to measure grain.
the basket that contain 1 choinix is kochinos or kofinos

zanipolo
28-05-11, 03:52
Well, it's clear that the Celtc invaded the western Balkans and partially absorbed the local Illyrian tribes.



who initally absorbed who ?

livy says
(Rhetia Vindelici ipsi sunt Liburni).
Liburnian kingdoms were Rhetia and Vindelicia. Clearly a man who saw the people in his life time.

granted the vindelici are G2 while the Liburnians are J2 ( same as istrians and people on the venetic coast ) , but since venetic are R - u152 S28 , which is same as istrians and similar to alpine celts we can safely say that there is a high chnace that the Liburnian as per LIVY times where mixed with celts.

An ancient grave test on the corfu people who originally where liburnians , then after Greek would also help..........then again the picenne (tribe of liburnians) in Italy who where neighbours of the celts will as well.

Taranis
28-05-11, 04:40
who initally absorbed who ?

livy says
(Rhetia Vindelici ipsi sunt Liburni).
Liburnian kingdoms were Rhetia and Vindelicia. Clearly a man who saw the people in his life time.

Livy did make a few other conflicting statements. As I said, the main reason he may have considered them "Liburnians" was due to their geographic location: they weren't living in Gaul. As I stated before, the Vindelicians, without a doubt, were Celts. They were archaeologically part of the core Hallstatt area, and if you look at their tribal names and town names, there is also no doubt it that they were a Celtic people. But, let me take you through this with some examples:

Vindelici
Vindo- ("white"), compare Old Irish "Finn" and Welsh "Gwyn".
-licos ("rock", "slab"), compare Irish "Leac", Welsh "Llech", Breton "Lec'h"

Also take a look at the subtribes:

- Licates (also "rock", see above, also the Lech river - "Licca" in Latin, which would have been the "rocky river")

- Brigantes
"Briga" ("elevation", "climax" - also "castle") compare Irish "Brigh", Welsh "Brig".
There were also tribes of a similar name in Britain, Galicia and Ireland.

town names:

- Abodiacum ("Idle river")
"Abona" ("River"), compare Old Irish "Ab", Welsh "Afon"
"Diacus" ("idle", "dull"), compare Breton "Diegus"

- Artobriga ("bear castle")
"Artos" ("Bear"), compare Old Irish "Art", Welsh "Arth", Breton "Arzh"

- "Cambodunum" ("slope fort")
"Cambos" ("slope"), compare Irish "Céim", Welsh "Cam"
"Dunon" ("fort", "town"), compare Irish "Dún", Welsh "Dinas"


granted the vindelici are G2 while the Liburnians are J2 ( same as istrians and people on the venetic coast ) , but since venetic are R - u152 S28 , which is same as istrians and similar to alpine celts we can safely say that there is a high chnace that the Liburnian as per LIVY times where mixed with celts.

No offense, but you're making too many conjectures here, especially in regard for ad-hoc assigning certain Haplogroups to certain people. Haplogroup G2 is, as has been shown, Neolithic in age. It stands to reason that G2 had a roughly similar setup to today (that is, higher frequencies in mountainous areas) since the Chalcolithic. It is similar with J2. Both Haplogroups predate the ethnic groups in question by multiple millennia, so they are pretty unlikely to be of any help here.

Regarding R1b-U152, it was in my opinion already spread around by the Urnfield Culture. This means that the pattern we see today is the cummulative effect of Urnfield, Hallstatt and La-Tene. Specifically, I would think that the pre-Etruscan population of central-northern Italy, the northern Iberians in Catalonia and the people of the Lusatian Culture were all carriers of R1b-U152.


An ancient grave test on the corfu people who originally where liburnians , then after Greek would also help..........then again the picenne (tribe of liburnians) in Italy who where neighbours of the celts will as well.

It would be interesting to have ancient DNA samples, yes, but that is generally the case. More smaples of anything. :good_job:

zanipolo
28-05-11, 08:24
Livy did make a few other conflicting statements. As I said, the main reason he may have considered them "Liburnians" was due to their geographic location: they weren't living in Gaul. As I stated before, the Vindelicians, without a doubt, were Celts. They were archaeologically part of the core Hallstatt area, and if you look at their tribal names and town names, there is also no doubt it that they were a Celtic people. But, let me take you through this with some examples:

Vindelici
Vindo- ("white"), compare Old Irish "Finn" and Welsh "Gwyn".
-licos ("rock", "slab"), compare Irish "Leac", Welsh "Llech", Breton "Lec'h"

Also take a look at the subtribes:

- Licates (also "rock", see above, also the Lech river - "Licca" in Latin, which would have been the "rocky river")

- Brigantes
"Briga" ("elevation", "climax" - also "castle") compare Irish "Brigh", Welsh "Brig".
There were also tribes of a similar name in Britain, Galicia and Ireland.

town names:

- Abodiacum ("Idle river")
"Abona" ("River"), compare Old Irish "Ab", Welsh "Afon"
"Diacus" ("idle", "dull"), compare Breton "Diegus"

- Artobriga ("bear castle")
"Artos" ("Bear"), compare Old Irish "Art", Welsh "Arth", Breton "Arzh"

- "Cambodunum" ("slope fort")
"Cambos" ("slope"), compare Irish "Céim", Welsh "Cam"
"Dunon" ("fort", "town"), compare Irish "Dún", Welsh "Dinas"



No offense, but you're making too many conjectures here, especially in regard for ad-hoc assigning certain Haplogroups to certain people. Haplogroup G2 is, as has been shown, Neolithic in age. It stands to reason that G2 had a roughly similar setup to today (that is, higher frequencies in mountainous areas) since the Chalcolithic. It is similar with J2. Both Haplogroups predate the ethnic groups in question by multiple millennia, so they are pretty unlikely to be of any help here.

Regarding R1b-U152, it was in my opinion already spread around by the Urnfield Culture. This means that the pattern we see today is the cummulative effect of Urnfield, Hallstatt and La-Tene. Specifically, I would think that the pre-Etruscan population of central-northern Italy, the northern Iberians in Catalonia and the people of the Lusatian Culture were all carriers of R1b-U152.



It would be interesting to have ancient DNA samples, yes, but that is generally the case. More smaples of anything. :good_job:


?? word association

Ok, lets see, jump in if I am wrong:innocent:

Alb = hill in celtic

Albon = hill people in celtic , also name of scotland

Albanoi = illyrian tribe

Taranis
28-05-11, 12:41
?? word association

Ok, lets see, jump in if I am wrong:innocent:

Alb = hill in celtic

Albon = hill people in celtic , also name of scotland

Albanoi = illyrian tribe

Actually, that hardly works. It's ultimately probably derived from the PIE word for "white":

- "Alba" was the name of Scotland, which is probably a reflection of earlier "Albion", which was used for the whole of Britain.
- There was a Gallaecian tribe named the Albiones.
- There is also Latin "Albus" ("white")
- Cognates also exist in Germanic: Danish Alf, Swedish Älva ("fairy"), German Alb ("Elf", "spirit") - also "Albtraum" ("nightmare", but literally "elven/spirit dream"), English Elf.

- Note that there was also a Caucasian Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania), which was very likely a Roman exonym however since the Caucasian Albanians spoke a non-Indo-European language.

Other than obviously Indo-European, you do not get very far with that.

zanipolo
28-05-11, 14:21
Actually, that hardly works. It's ultimately probably derived from the PIE word for "white":

- "Alba" was the name of Scotland, which is probably a reflection of earlier "Albion", which was used for the whole of Britain.
- There was a Gallaecian tribe named the Albiones.
- There is also Latin "Albus" ("white")
- Cognates also exist in Germanic: Danish Alf, Swedish Älva ("fairy"), German Alb ("Elf", "spirit") - also "Albtraum" ("nightmare", but literally "elven/spirit dream"), English Elf.

- Note that there was also a Caucasian Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania), which was very likely a Roman exonym however since the Caucasian Albanians spoke a non-Indo-European language.

Other than obviously Indo-European, you do not get very far with that.

LOL :laughing: as you would know from prevoius other threads , i do not beleive in word association when it comes to naming of people.

look below, more celtic -illyrian unions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes

celti mountain men below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

considering aquileia is in friuli, which borders istria, the celts got down into the adriatic sea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weer
more illyrians in western austria

I do not know why you fight this, is it because you think the illyrians are slavs?
Well they are not slavs, they are there own people, who if they banded together could have ruled half of europe.:smile:
Only 2 ancient tribes in europe banded and they ruled - macedonians and Romans

Taranis
28-05-11, 15:27
LOL :laughing: as you would know from prevoius other threads , i do not beleive in word association when it comes to naming of people.

Well, that makes no sense. What sense would it make for the Romans to give the (in your opinion, Illyrian) Vindelici Celtic names?! That makes absolutely no sense. Specifically, the problem is, once you ditch all linguistic evidence and ad-hoc claim "People X were actually part of ethnic group Y", without any basis, you enter the realm of fantasy.


look below, more celtic -illyrian unions
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iapydes

celti mountain men below
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taurisci

considering aquileia is in friuli, which borders istria, the celts got down into the adriatic sea.

Yes, sure, Celtic tribes settled in Illyria and mixed with the Illyrians. Where is the point? This proves in no way that the Vindelici were actually Illyrians.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weer
more illyrians in western austria

You trust a single, out-of-context mentioning in a Wikipedia article more than well-established, consistent etymologies for a variety of names that come from the same area? :startled:

And actually, you totally get it wrong:

As I stated above, it's not just the people's names themselves, it's also town names and river names. If you go into Illyria, with exception of those places (adjacent to the Pannonian basin) that were actually settled by Celtic tribes, you have otherwise no Celtic name evidence in Illyria.

Conversely, how can you argue that the Hallstatt Culture was actually Illyrian (because that is what I think you are trying to argue here) if there's no Illyrian name evidence in Bohemia, Germany north of the Danube, Switzerland or eastern France? It makes no sense!


I do not know why you fight this, is it because you think the illyrians are slavs?

Silly, the Illyrians were obviously no Slavs (How yes no would claim that, I am pretty sure, since he also claimed that the Boii and the Sea Peoples were actually Slavs :laughing: ), but that's not the point (I also wonder where the idea that I'm somehow Slavophobic came from - it's not my fault that evidence for the Slavic peoples before the migration period is scanty at best). The reason why I "fight" this as you call it is because it makes no sense what you say. Conversely, I must genuinely wonder why you apparently wish the Vindelici to be Illyrians, despite evidence pointing to the contrary? :thinking:


Well they are not slavs, they are there own people, who if they banded together could have ruled half of europe.:smile:
Only 2 ancient tribes in europe banded and they ruled - macedonians and Romans

What? Now we are entering the realm of alternate history... :confused2:

zanipolo
29-05-11, 00:26
You trust a single, out-of-context mentioning in a Wikipedia article more than well-established, consistent etymologies for a variety of names that come from the same area? :startled:

And actually, you totally get it wrong:


Conversely, how can you argue that the Hallstatt Culture was actually Illyrian (because that is what I think you are trying to argue here) if there's no Illyrian name evidence in Bohemia, Germany north of the Danube, Switzerland or eastern France? It makes no sense!

when did I say the hallstatt culture was illyrian? , you fail to understand that the illyrians where at the time of the great migrations in 1200-1250 BC , when many people moved from anatolia to europe, already established in the alps bordering modern germany. The celtic dominance after this was a celtinization of these illyrian settlements.
You must realise that the celtic where pushing eastward firstly , long before they moved westerly. Unless you regard the gallic as part of celtic:shocked:

You seem to think there was nothing prior to the celts in the times before the hallstatt culture, which I find astonishing from you , being a learned person.




Silly, the Illyrians were obviously no Slavs (How yes no would claim that, I am pretty sure, since he also claimed that the Boii and the Sea Peoples were actually Slavs :laughing: ), but that's not the point (I also wonder where the idea that I'm somehow Slavophobic came from - it's not my fault that evidence for the Slavic peoples before the migration period is scanty at best). The reason why I "fight" this as you call it is because it makes no sense what you say. Conversely, I must genuinely wonder why you apparently wish the Vindelici to be Illyrians, despite evidence pointing to the contrary? :thinking:

How yes and no claims all of europe is slavic but thats him, I never ever beleived the slavs where anywhere near europe at least till the end of the western Roman empire.
I am stating many many scholars who claim the vindelici where illyrian. But I do have doubts especially the genetics, BUT, genetics can be altered or watered down due to mass migrations of peoples and thats what I am referring to.

Can we measure the genetics of the eastern alps?, is there a link ?





What? Now we are entering the realm of alternate history... :confused2:

Name the ancient tribes that united to rule as a confereration and not fight between each other, because the tribal system was strong.
Illyric
celtic
gallic
venetic
Finnic
Nordic
Pictish
Sabellic
Hellenic
Doric
Thracian
etc etc
Iwhat I was referring to was that with the number of people and tribes which was in illyrian lands, they could have dominated a large portion of eastern europe

Taranis
29-05-11, 01:01
when did I say the hallstatt culture was illyrian? , you fail to understand that the illyrians where at the time of the great migrations in 1200-1250 BC , when many people moved from anatolia to europe, already established in the alps bordering modern germany. The celtic dominance after this was a celtinization of these illyrian settlements.

I'm honestly beginning to think that you have a very different usage for the term "Illyrian" than I do. By "Illyrians" I mean the people who lived on the approximate area of modern-day Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia, and who spoke a (poorly-attested) Centum-Indo-European language. What is your definition?

There is also no evidence of "great movements" as you call them occuring around 1250-1200 BC occuring from Anatolia to Europe. I mean, you seem to refer to the Sea Peoples invasion, but this was in the eastern Mediterranean region, and it certainly didn't go into Europe. Also, consider that this period of the Sea Peoples is almost a millennium before the earliest mentioning of the Illyrians in written sources.


You must realise that the celtic where pushing eastward firstly , long before they moved westerly. Unless you regard the gallic as part of celtic:shocked:

Actually, the Celtic incursion into the Balkans is thought to have occured around the same time as the incursion into Italy. You have to consider that around 150-200 years later, the Celts under Brennus (the second Brennus, that is) invaded Greece in 297 BC.

Also, "Gauls" and "Celts", in the classical sense are essentially (almost) one and the same. The people whom the Romans called "Galli" and "Celtae" were the same that the Greeks called "Keltoi" and "Galates". The only difference is that the term "Gauls" became used mainly as a geographic term refering to the inhabitants of Gaul, which is why the Romans also had serious problems with identifying other Celtic-speaking peoples living further eastwards as "Gauls".


You seem to think there was nothing prior to the celts in the times before the hallstatt culture, which I find astonishing from you , being a learned person.

No, I'm not saying that there was "nothing", but I would argue it's a tad difficult to make assertations about ethnic affiliation. Generally, as I stated before, Hallstatt was preceeded by the Urnfield Culture, which spread across a large area, including areas that were later inhabited by Iberians (Catalonia), Lepontii (Alps) and Etruscans (central-northern Italy).


How yes and no claims all of europe is slavic but thats him, I never ever beleived the slavs where anywhere near europe at least till the end of the western Roman empire.

In my opinion, some of the tribes mentioned in Eastern Europe (in "European Sarmatia") may have been Slavic/Proto-Slavic, but as I stated evidence is scanty.


I am stating many many scholars who claim the vindelici where illyrian. But I do have doubts especially the genetics, BUT, genetics can be altered or watered down due to mass migrations of peoples and thats what I am referring to.

As I stated before, I don't find the case that they were Illyrian convincing at all. They were archaeologically part of the Hallstatt Culture, which is generally thought to have been Celtic. Also, all linguistic evidence suggests they were Celtic. If it wasn't for that statement by Livy, there would be no reason to not assume that they were Celtic.


Can we measure the genetics of the eastern alps?, is there a link ?

Frankly, I have no idea what you are trying to argue there or are actually looking for.


Name the ancient tribes that united to rule as a confereration and not fight between each other, because the tribal system was strong.
Illyric
celtic
gallic
venetic
Finnic
Nordic
Pictish
Sabellic
Hellenic
Doric
Thracian
etc etc
Iwhat I was referring to was that with the number of people and tribes which was in illyrian lands, they could have dominated a large portion of eastern europe

I still don't follow... :confused2:

Taranis
29-05-11, 01:10
By the way, I would like to add something regarding the original thread topic:

"Wadel" is probably of plain old German/Germanic origin. It's probably related with the word "wedeln" (to wag, wave).

iapetoc
29-05-11, 01:16
?? word association

Ok, lets see, jump in if I am wrong:innocent:

Alb = hill in celtic

Albon = hill people in celtic , also name of scotland

Albanoi = illyrian tribe


well Albanoi is a modern after 1200 word that entered Illyria,
Before from 1040 the existed word was Arbanites,
Arbanites claim that they came from a city named Arbanon
the ones in Italy are called ARberesh
Arbanon can have have many meanongs,
1 from latin Urban (city)
2 from Byzantinte Arberoi Ar+Veros = Veterans
3 an old thracian word toponyms like Ορβηλος Orbelos
4 tribe Albocence (thracians) of Moesia,
5 City of Alba Lullia in Romania
6 Albino = white color .....etc
the connection to link worb Albania with Ancient Illyria hmmmm

ok in Turkish we find the word Halva maybe is connected? :grin: :grin:

something that sould not pass with out see it is also the city of Arber in Dalmatia,
there was an ancient city in Dalmatia the times of Romans that was named Arber

something that should also see is that state of Alba was established by Anjou,

I think religious wars and ethnic also in area create a strange situation

Ptolemy is the first to mention the Albanopolis,
well Albanopolis to an old Propaganda was in Checcnia, the caucas Albania,
according others was the city of Arbanon that Anna Komneni mentions,
but a city so big as thessaloniki to dissapear????
in another post I gave a searcher that disagree that Arbanon was Albanopolis,

Simply the search for Ptolemy's Albanopolis is until today a debate,
we only know that Anju are connected with Alba lullia in Romania,
and that Arbanon was the center of Byzantine army that was to protect Sicily and south Italy from the catholics and the arabs, and a possible invasion in Balkans,
remember that general Maniakis was ruler of Arbanon and leader of Arbanites,
Maniakis was from Bithynia minor asia,

so the situation is more complex,

Taranis
29-05-11, 01:22
well Albanoi is a modern after 1200 word that entered Illyria,
Before from 1040 the existed word was Arbanites,
Arbanites claim that they came from a city named Arbanon
the ones in Italy are called ARberesh
Arbanon can have have many meanongs,
1 from latin Urban (city)
2 from Byzantinte Arberoi Ar+Veros = Veterans
3 an old thracian word toponyms like Ορβηλος Orbelos
4 tribe Albocence (thracians) of Moesia,
5 City of Alba Lullia in Romania
6 Albino = white color .....etc
the connection to link worb Albania with Ancient Illyria hmmmm

ok in Turkish we find the word Halva maybe is connected?

Let's not mix things up here: the usage of "Albanians" for the Albanians (who in their own language, call themselves "Shqiptaret") is modern, but the term "Albanoi" for an Illyrian tribe existed in antiquity. It's very unlikely that the two are connected, especially because the Albanians themselves don't use the term (or a cognate of it) in their own language.

iapetoc
29-05-11, 01:54
when did I say the hallstatt culture was illyrian? , you fail to understand that the illyrians where at the time of the great migrations in 1200-1250 BC , when many people moved from anatolia to europe, already established in the alps bordering modern germany. The celtic dominance after this was a celtinization of these illyrian settlements.
You must realise that the celtic where pushing eastward firstly , long before they moved westerly. Unless you regard the gallic as part of celtic:shocked:

well not exactly Cadmeians
thye invaded by ships from Cyprus, or anotehr Island, the time estimation is about 2000BC
so probably Illyros was at least 1800BC

the latest of Cadmeian Theba is about 2 centuries before Ilias(Troy war), so about 15-1600 BC
we don't know until how north Illyros reach, and until his sons went,


the case that later migrations of celts to east
hmmm could someone push them? like people from Italy?
could Illyrians be not that strong so they decide to go back?

the case of Slavic is more simple than some claim,
Slavic is the culture that is connected with 6th century invasions or migrations,
is mostly after cyrillic,
but a pre-slavic or proto slavic to enter Balkans is possible.

zanipolo
29-05-11, 03:01
I'm honestly beginning to think that you have a very different usage for the term "Illyrian" than I do. By "Illyrians" I mean the people who lived on the approximate area of modern-day Bosnia, Croatia and Slovenia, and who spoke a (poorly-attested) Centum-Indo-European language. What is your definition?

There is also no evidence of "great movements" as you call them occuring around 1250-1200 BC occuring from Anatolia to Europe. I mean, you seem to refer to the Sea Peoples invasion, but this was in the eastern Mediterranean region, and it certainly didn't go into Europe. Also, consider that this period of the Sea Peoples is almost a millennium before the earliest mentioning of the Illyrians in written sources.




when I look at history , I disregard modern borders, the illyrians where from the adraitic sea to the danube and into austria

Around 1200 BC there were big migrations in Europe (see Bronze Age Collapse) and Indo-Europeans arrived in the Carpathian Basin. In Western Pannonia, the Hallstatt culture started to emerge from 1200 BC, this is accepted as ancestor of Celts. The pre-Celtic language mixing with IE neighbours (most likely Illyrians or venetics ) produced the proto-Celtic language (S28/U152) in the Alps region, because they where already in the Alps.
In the later Hallstatt and La Tene periods, the comparative advantage of iron weapons helped the Celtic expansion in Europe.
Point is that U-152 is Celtic , L21 is not , S28 is a celtic/illyric/venetic strain

zanipolo
29-05-11, 05:12
some intresting maps and info on the topic

http://www.davidkfaux.org/LaTene_Celt_R1b1c10_part2.pdf

http://www.davidkfaux.org/R1b1c10_Resources.pdf

I noticed that U - 198 seemed to fit the void of the U-152 in the eastern alps......I thought U-198 was another germanic group like the U-106

iapetoc
29-05-11, 10:00
I don't know exactly what your ponit is,

Simply the case of Celts that invade Austria and Alpes,
or the Alpine Celts that invade Dinaric Alps,

Well according to older Anthropology,
there are 2 tribes the Alpino, and the Dinaric race,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_race

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_race


especially First is interesting to me,

geiserich
19-06-11, 08:47
South-West Germany was a stronghold of celtic power in hallstatt period.
There are a lot of celtic burial sites, celtic names of mountains and rivers and celtic haplogroups (old R1b1b2a1b4 is now R1b1a2a1a1b3 or R1b-U152).
So I think, some celtic words have survived and are now in the german language or in local dialects.

zanipolo
10-06-12, 00:44
in regards to swabian areas, correct me if I am wrong, but are these the modern region of freiburg, baden-baden and wurtenburg?

If so, then since my T1* ( still being deciphered and most like will get my own coding) , my next closest markers states
2 from veneto (verona and averrano)
2 from tyrol ( val di non and badia)
1 from slovenia
2 from baden-baden
2 from wurtenburg
3 from ireland ( all southern ireland)
1 from netherlands ( groningen)
4 from england ( 1 cornish , rest in the midlands )
3 from the carolinas USA ( from after american war of independence)

While not deliving into the very ancient trai of HG T, I was wanting to know what mix of people where these Swabians and are they also called alennai

Christiaan
10-06-12, 16:34
Thank you how yes no for your response.

So a lot of hits in the baltics. (Kratta, Wadel, Hagge)

Hag: fence is possibly germanic

Hafa: pot could be afro-asiatic. A relic of the first farmers.

Most male words (weapons, hunting, agriculture, weather) are germanic.
But female words (little children, cooking , baby and garden) are often different of german. Is this a coincidence or does it represent a relic of an older population.



I can give some more special swabian words:

Zinka: nose
Beig: heap of wood
Häs: clothes

schira: put wood on a fire
triala: when a hildren eats, some food don`t find the way to the mouth
motza: little children play with dirt and water

helinga: silent
welaweg: probable

All this words are totally different of german.


Well, not only in the Baltics..., anyway Hagga might be indeed a celtic word. The underlined words are url's

Zorna= zerren.. ein Zürssel =ein Geflochtenes? something torned/binded
Hafa=?? Hafen (http://www.heinrich-tischner.de/22-sp/2wo/wort/idg/deutsch/0kurz/h/hafen.htm), Kaffeehaferl(bavarian) =coffeemug
Wadel=wedeln, a waver=tail
Kratta= krat(dutch) and crate(English)... =(Gemüse/Bier)Kiste(high german)
hagga=hog (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=hog) (English)...now pig, but originally animals old enough for slaughter... celtic origin? or Germanic origin ...ophokken(dutch) =confinement, hok (http://translate.google.de/?hl=de&safe=off&q=eingepfe&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=pT#nl|en|hok)(dutch) ...= ein Viehpferch(high German)
Beig= bergen (http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/bergen), berg, barg... it simply means heap to stock wood
Häs=hes (http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/hes)(dutch, introduced by germans), but maybe related to the dutch word "jas (http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/jas1)"
schira= schüren(highGerman)... to stoke
triala=trullern (http://nds.plattmakers.de/index.php?book=web&dial=120&show=2792)(low saxon)in de Büxen trullern= to wet your pants...
helinga (http://www.stuttgarter-nachrichten.de/inhalt.auf-gut-schwaebisch-die-bedeutung-von-hael-ng.7f776bbc-34c8-4f86-9a9f-0b38fffbf677.html)=verhohlen...verhehlen =so hidden/secret/silent
motza= modderen(dutch)=to mud, aanmodderen(dutch)=to muddle along
wellaweag= welcherweg=anyway

geiserich
13-06-12, 07:14
Very good explanaton Christiaan. The most Swaban words are indeed probably germanic.
I give you some more examples.
Perhaps you can give me an explanation.

grom - gift, someone takes it home after a journey
gretig - angry because of too few sleep
goscha - mouth
ranza - body
boscha - hair
guller - cock
nula - find a solution of a technical problem with try and error
grumsa - child cries and doesn`t do what the mother want
gi - to example: gi Stuttgart - to Stuttgart

Hope you can help me

Christiaan
13-06-12, 15:27
Very good explanaton Christiaan. The most Swaban words are indeed probably germanic.
I give you some more examples.
Perhaps you can give me an explanation.

grom - gift, someone takes it home after a journey
gretig - angry because of too few sleep
goscha - mouth
ranza - body
boscha - hair
guller - cock
nula - find a solution of a technical problem with try and error
grumsa - child cries and doesn`t do what the mother want
gi - to example: gi Stuttgart - to Stuttgart

Hope you can help me

grom=? Kram(stuff), Krempel(stuff), ...marktkraam(dutch for a marketstall)
gretig= grantig(bavarian), is probably not related with the dutch word gretig (http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/gretig)(eager), but with gretten " mnd. gretten (< *gratjan) ‘irritieren’, ohd. grazzo ‘streng’, mhd. graz ‘Wut’; < pgm. *grati- (nur West-Germanisch), das vielleicht verwandt ist mit → graat < pgm. *grata- (mhd. graz was soviel heißt wie ‘Wut’ und ‘Zweig’)." if twig(Zweig) is mentioned it might also be related to the word Gräte( fish bone)
goscha=hebrew word (http://www.wer-weiss-was.de/theme46/article6471896.html)?
Ranza= ? Ranzen (http://www.wort-suche.com/bedeutung/32667/Schulranzen.html)(schoolbag) the schoolbag might have been compared to a belly?. It has something to do with the torso that is for sure...
boscha =Büschel Haar, een bos haar (a "bush" of hair)
guller= gillen (http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/gillen1)(dutch for to yell) so a crower? or related to the word Gockel(cock)...gackern(german for to cackle)
nula= (rum)nudeln(to "noodle" around), (rum)wurschteln(to "sausage" around, so being busy/clumsy as if making sausages or noodles?
grumsa= grämen(being sad), grämig(bad mood), grumpy(english)....grummen/grommen(german/dutch for to growl)
gi= gen Horizont (in direction of the horizon), ginder (http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/ginder)(dutch for: there, at that place)

MOESAN
13-06-12, 23:49
interesting work to try to find cognates: I shall stay on general ground:
before looking for far foreign languages to explain dialects it is necessary to try the neighborhood languages of same recent origin even if looking farther is not a big sin...
to go back to the origin of this thread, I think Swabian people are close relatives to Alsacians and also to Alemannic people of Switzerland: a mixture where dominates Celts and Germanics - for the diphtongaison of 'I' these dialects are close to flemish and northern (scandinavian) dialects - considering it , there are far from the bavarian dialects -
I suppose their strong 'high-german' affiliation is due to proximity with Bavaria, Tyrol and Switzerland and their centuries influences - I think also a conflictual celtic vs rhaetic non I-E influence could explain the second consonnantael mutation (southern) in german language , that runs farther in high alemannic (South Switzerland- ) and Austrian-S-bavarian dialects where along with D>T (written) and B>P (not written) we find K>KCH or CH ('kind' > 'ching') it is to say the complete mutation - the could be a link between all these languages where consonnants keep unvoiced or become unvoiced contrary to the neighborhooh regions (Toscan, Hungarian, South-Germanic) - the first mutation could be better linked to more precise finnic-habits?
it recall me a dialectal phenomenon in welsh where the Morgannwg dialect pronounce unvoiced the normally voiced untervocalic stops of the celtic language (voicing and leniting is a dominent trait among celtic languages): hazard: this welsh region is an ancient silurian one -
just to enjoy pushing on the cork
good night

geiserich
24-06-12, 04:11
Thank you Moesan for your response.

So the vast mayority of swabian words are really germanic.
Thank you.

But the celts must have left an impact here.

Do you think that the names of mountains and rivers and lakes are a better chace to find our celtic heritage?

Taranis
24-06-12, 15:03
Thank you Moesan for your response.

So the vast mayority of swabian words are really germanic.
Thank you.

But the celts must have left an impact here.

Do you think that the names of mountains and rivers and lakes are a better chace to find our celtic heritage?

Celtic presence in Central Europe was already on the decline before 1st century BC, and when the Romans expanded their borders to the Rhine and to the Danube, what little was left of Celtic presence was absorbed by the expanding Germanic tribes from the north. A lot of place names disappeared due to the Migration Period. But, that is not to say, however, that there is no Celtic legacy at all. Here's some examples:

- "Breg" and "Brigach" (the two source rivers of the Danube), from Celtic *brig- ("high", "powerful"). Related with this, of course, is the town name "Bregenz" in western Austria.
- the "Naab" river (compare with "Nabia", a Gallaecian river goddess, as well as the Navia river in northwestern Spain)
- "Tübingen" and "Tauber" (from Celtic *dubo-, "black")
- "Zarten" (in the Black Forest) - Tarodunon
- "Kempten" (in the Allgäu) - Cambodunon

Incidentally, your own screen name is Celtic-derived (via Proto-Germanic mediation): "Gaiso-riχs" ("spear king")