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Could it be possible that proto-IE is the language of the oldest HG R(included R1a and R1b of course) in about 25000ybp?
I am not sure the Hittites were R1b1b2 ? but G2a3b1 more probably
The centum people appear to have been predominently R1b while the satem people appear to have been almost exclusively R1a.
That doesn't seem to be always the case, for example the Tocharians were Centum and they were predominantly R1a (for example, the Tarim Mummies were R1a).
Guys,
I already addressed the issue of the Tocharians in a previous post i believe.
The tocharians, as expected were R1a. The reason why they are centum is because the development of the Satem distinction happened later, around 3000BC, while the Tocharian emigrated around 3700BC.
(See "the Wheel the horse and the language")
Possible, but who was the first? Because there is 18,000 years distance between R1b and R1a and both haplogroups didn't mix with each other 3000 BCE, because there's very little R1a in Western Europe (Atlantic coast) and there is very little R1b in India!Possible, but who was the first? Because there is 18,000 years distance between R1b and R1a and both haplogroups didn't mix with each other 3000 BCE, because there's very little R1a in Western Europe (Atlantic coast) and there is very little R1b in India!
Goga,
in his book David Anthony shows that the PIE language has strong commonalities with the proto language of the Finns who used to live in the Ural mountains. Myres et al also shows that R1bs left a mark in the territory of the Bashkirs. further back, you can see the origins of the R haplogroup in Nothern Pakistan (please study for instance the haplogroup R2).
As a result it seems pretty clear to me that after the end of the Ice Age, R1bs moved north from Northern Pakistan toward the Urals (bashkirs) where they stayed for a while. Around 8000BC they started moving down the Volga and then toward the Dnieper (Dnieper Rapids). Later, after the domestication of the horse they spread through the ukrainian plains. Evidence also suggests that they developed then the mutation of lactose tolerance which i believe gave them an edge in their conquest (around 3000BC) of the Danube valley.
R1a is a little more difficult to study because as you know there was a massive back migration around 2700BC from eastern Ukraine (Volga) toward the Ural and down toward India again. As a result, this back migration erased the signs of the first migration. Yet, since as you pointed out, R1a was also part of the PIE initial group, I suppose that their migration north from Pakistan to the Urals and down the Volga was in line with that of the R1bs, perhaps just a little later, perhaps as a second wave. They settled mostly in eastern Ukraine. After most of the R1bs had moved up the Danube toward northern and western Europe after 3000BC, R1a migrated toward Eastern Europe and back to the Urals. Of course Tocharians had left earlier (around 3700BC) and anatolians probably around 4000BC from the western end.
Taranis,
David anthony also shows the steps of the migration up the Danube after 3000BC. The migration was very slow and went through the balkans, Carthatian mountains and later arrived in Eastern Hungary. There was probably several waves and the bulk of them (the Tumuli culture) only arrived in Western German and Alsace around 2500-2300BC.
Taranis,
David anthony also shows the steps of the migration up the Danube after 3000BC. The migration was very slow and went through the balkans, Carthatian mountains and later arrived in Eastern Hungary. There was probably several waves and the bulk of them (the Tumuli culture) only arrived in Western German and Alsace around 2500-2300BC.
I believe it was J2 (+G2a & T). But if It wasn't J2 that Indo-Europized R1b and R1a, I think that R1b folks Indo-Europized R1a folks from the Balkans and Northern Caucasus. Indo-European R1b folks migrated into Europe via the Balkans and the Caucasus and settled in Central Europe first.
Wojewoda said:I M170 0,28
R1a M17 0,24
R M207 0,21
L M357 0,14
R1b M73 0,14
J2 M12 0,13
R1b M269 0,05
L M76 0,03
C M216 0,03
R2 M124 0,02
E M78 0,01
O M175 0,00
H M69 0,00
J2 M47 -0,05
F M89 -0,05
N LLY22g -0,06
B M60 -0,08
R1b M343 -0,09
L M317 -0,14
G M201 -0,16
J2 M92 -0,16
R1 M173 -0,17
Q M242 -0,19
J2 M67 -0,19
E M81 -0,19
J2 M410 -0,20
E M75 -0,20
NO M214 -0,22
E M33 -0,22
P M74 -0,22
J2 M172 -0,23
E P2 -0,25
E M2 -0,27
Y*(xBT) M91 -0,31
E M35 -0,32
J1 M267 -0,32
T M70 -0,41
E M123 -0,45
J1 PAGE08 -0,52
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