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DejaVu
25-01-11, 00:25
Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

Itas Argis
26-01-11, 20:24
Greetings,
for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:

1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI

2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml

Now,
It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs.

Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.

There exist few hypotheses.
Serbs today, I think, is a mix of Balkanic (Illyrians, Thracians), Slavic, Anatolian, Sarmatians, Scythians, etc., people, nation, tribes.
Yet, everything of this could be true, and false.
Theories, hypotheses, time will tell, I hope, the truth.
You can read more about the Serbs at this thread:

"Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2"
eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25801

A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.

iapodos
26-01-11, 20:28
Greetings,
for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:

1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI

2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml

Now,
It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs.

Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.

There exist few hypotheses.
Serbs today, I think, is a mix of Balkanic (Illyrians, Thracians), Slavic, Anatolian, Sarmatians, Scythians, etc., people, nation, tribes.
Yet, everything of this could be true, and false.
Theories, hypotheses, time will tell, I hope, the truth.
You can read more about the Serbs at this thread:

"Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2"
eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25801

A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.

Good morning.

Shetop
26-01-11, 20:46
A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.

The member "how yes now" wrote about Serbs colonizing Iberia and Northwest Africa. This kind of imagination can be interesting only to those who consider history just one more fairy tale. And this is were you have the point - people do enjoy reading fairy tales.

Mzungu mchagga
26-01-11, 20:56
Greetings,
for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:

1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI

2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml

Now,
It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs.

Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.

There exist few hypotheses.
Serbs today, I think, is a mix of Balkanic (Illyrians, Thracians), Slavic, Anatolian, Sarmatians, Scythians, etc., people, nation, tribes.
Yet, everything of this could be true, and false.
Theories, hypotheses, time will tell, I hope, the truth.
You can read more about the Serbs at this thread:

"Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2"
eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25801

A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.

looool
'how yes no', is it you?? :laughing:

how yes no 2
26-01-11, 21:35
looool
'how yes no', is it you?? :laughing:

nope, but it seems that my writings on that topic gave me one fan from Greece, and two extreme critics from Serbia




Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.
Serbs DNA is same as in other Slavs dominantly determined by R1a and I2a2, just ratio of I2a2 and R1a is opposite, which indicates that tyhey were among I2a2 contributers in Slavic people...

As for language, I believe that Slavic language origin from Serbs




A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.

I do wonder how can someone say "don't hesitate to ask" instead of me... perhaps idea is to discredit my writing by taking identity that everyone will think is me.... I guess that little Croat boy think he is very smart....

iapodos
26-01-11, 21:42
nope, but it seems that my writings on that topic gave me one fan from Greece, and two extreme critics from Serbia

You know how it is said- Nobody is a prophet at his own home.
Let it be consolation to you.

how yes no 2
26-01-11, 21:55
You know how it is said- Nobody is a prophet at his own home.
Let it be consolation to you.

yes, well I did propose some quite exotic ideas.... e.g. relation to sea peoples...

there are two things to distinguish:
one is Serb tribal name that seems to be very old and have passed mostly among I haplogroup tribes in different shapes (as in Swedes, Suebi, Sorbs, Serbs, Sarbans, Sardinians... also possible matches Scordisci, Serdi...)
and second is actual ancestors of Serbs of today....

e.g. Pasthun Sarbans matching Seneca's arc of Serians from northwest China to India, coupled with name Sarbans used for Serbs by some Byzantine historians, and with Pastun Sarbans carrying clear mark of haplogroup I in non haplogroup I part of Asia, made me conclude that proto-Serbs are offspring of Serians mentioned by Seneca...

but according to
"Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with
nearby regions - Khaled K Abu-Amero*1, Ali Hellani2, Ana M González3, Jose M Larruga3,Vicente M Cabrera3 and Peter A Underhill4"
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59

it seems that there is no haplogroup I in Saudi Arabia and Yemen (where one would expect offspring of Serians of Red sea) and that haplogroup I in Pastun Sarbans is I* and not I2a2

which indicates the direction of spread of haplogroup I, was probably from Persia to several branches: arc of Seres, Asia minor and Caucasus...and from last two directions to Europe... amazing is that tribal name for so distantly related people is preserved....

I still think that proto-Serbs origin from Serians of Europe, just their link to Serians of Red sea, and to Serians of arc from Serica in northwest China to India is much earlier in time than I have guessed...as being of haplogroup I* makes Serians of Asia very distantly related people with same tribal name....

sea peoples Sherden (after whom the lake in Egypt carries name Serbonian bog / Serbonis/Sirbonis) are most likely related to either Sardinians or Serians of Red sea... and their relation to proto-Serbs of Balkan is very distant...

iapodos
26-01-11, 22:01
it seems that there is no haplogroup I in Saudi Arabia and Yemen

Surprising really! I would expect at least I1 in the south of Saudi Arabia. You know about Vikings, nobody knows where they may appear...

And that Osama Bin Laden looks to me as genuine Serb!

how yes no 2
26-01-11, 22:13
Surprising really! I would expect at least I1 in the south of Saudi Arabia. You know about Vikings, nobody knows where they may appear...
And that Osama Bin Laden looks to me as genuine Serb!

hey, don't joke... :)

idea I had is that Serians of Red sea (Sabeans/Sheba) were offspring of more northern Serians who settled coasts of Red sea during sea peoples invasion (Sherden whose name resulted in Serbonian bog toponym in Egypt)...
but since quoted work indicates that there is no haplogroup I in Arabian peninsula, either this is wrong theory, or they didnot leave much offspring, or sampling didnot catch area where they offspring lives...

a possible explanation is that tribal name Serb is even older than haplogroup I and related to haplogroup IJ branch...so that Sheba or Sabeans became J haplogroup, and a branch of them who lived in Persia became haplogroup I.... besides it is even possible that Arab tribal name might be derived from same root with losing 'S' in the beginning of the word...

if tribal name related to Serbs is really ancient old, than it is not really good marker for explaining more recent history of Serbs.....


anyway, I will try later to summarize the part of ideas about more recent origin of Serbs of Balkan that seems to hold well...

iapodos
26-01-11, 22:18
hey, don't joke... :)



a possible explanation is that tribal name Serb is even older than haplogroup I and related to haplogroup IJ branch...so that Sheba or Sabeans became J haplogroup, and a branch of them who lived in Persia became haplogroup I....



If you continue this way you will end up connecting Serbs with haplogroup A.
What to say, unless: Bon voyage!

how yes no 2
26-01-11, 22:24
If you continue this way you will end up connecting Serbs with haplogroup A.
What to say, unless: Bon voyage!

that is exactly the point I am making now....

if tribal name has ancient old origin (as in carried by some of IJ peoples), than it makes no sense to use it to reconstruct more recent history of Balkan Serbs whose I2a2 members are just a small leaf on that tree of people who originates from IJ....

so, we should follow first known historical mention of Serbs and try to go a bit backwards from there... e.g. towards link between Slavs (Sloveni) and Veneti...

Mzungu mchagga
26-01-11, 23:46
or Khoisan, sorry, Khoiserb? j/k ;-)

how yes no 2
27-01-11, 00:02
or Khoisan, sorry, Khoiserb? j/k ;-)

nope, maybe related to proto-Croats or Khorasan /Khwarezm :rolleyes2:

don't spam here.... it's not funny..

DejaVu
27-01-11, 03:50
Serbia
I1 6,5%
I2a 34,5%
I2b 0,5%
R1a 15%
R1b 7%
G2a 1,5%
J2 6,5%
J1 0,5%
E1b1b 20,5%
T 3%
Q 1%
N1c1 2%

Garrick
27-01-11, 04:15
Serbia
I1 6,5%
I2a 34,5%
I2b 0,5%
R1a 15%
R1b 7%
G2a 1,5%
J2 6,5%
J1 0,5%
E1b1b 20,5%
T 3%
Q 1%
N1c1 2%

DejaVu

I told you that there is new researching for Serbia, Mirabal et al (2010):
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

Serbia

I2a2 38,5%
I1 7,8%
I2b1 1.67%

R1a 14,5%
R1b 4,5%

E1b1b1 17,3%

J1 0.6%
J2a 3.3%
J2b 1.7%

G2a 2,2%

(You can see, total I in Serbia is 47,97%.)

And I will show that Macedonians (FYROM) are the closest with Serbs according to the analysis.

DejaVu
27-01-11, 04:25
Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

Continue posting about that, rest is irrelevant.

Garrick
30-01-11, 03:11
DejaVu
One part I already wrote on another topic but as a prelude to the final image.

You can see similarity in haplogroups between Serbia and Macedonia FYROM and comment on the differences.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia census 2001
Ethnic Serbs 83%, Others 17%

Macedonia FYROM census 2001
Ethnic Slavic Macedonians 65%, Ethnic Albanians 24%, Others 11%

Comments

Given that the majority Albanians haplogroup is E is not surprising that is a greater percentage of E in Macedonia than in Serbia.

The part of E carriers in Serbia is from the migration of Montenegrins where E is higher percentage than in Macedonia.

If we consider only ethnic Serbs and ethnic Slavic Macedonians, haplogroup I is the higher percentage comparing the total population of these countries.


Dieckens decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html)

Labels are as follows:

GRE: Greece
SER: Serbia
SMA: Slavic Macedonia (FYROM)
HER: Herzegovina
BOS: Bosnia
ALB: Albania
KAL: Kosovo Albanians
SLO: Slovenia
CRO: Croatia
UKR: Ukraine
TUR: Turkey
HUN: Hungary
ROM: Romania
ITA: Italy

You can see his results on map.

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/416/princomp5or.jpg

I tried to introduce changes for Serbia and Montenegro, MNE (based on Mirabal et al 2010) and Albania, GAL Gege Albanians and TAL Tosk Albanians (according Ferri et al, 2010).

The differences are as follows:

SER has moved somewhat closer to the left to HER and BOS;

If would be introduced in the picture GAL (Geges Albanians) that would be slightly lower than the KAL;

If would be injected also a TAL (Tosk Albanians) that would not be much moved over in comparison to ALB;

If would be introduced Montenegro it would be about halfway between the diagonal and GAL SER.


Despite these changes for Serbia would be the closest to the left Bosnia (BOS) again the right Macedonia FYROM apropos Macedonia FYROM is by far the closest to Serbia.


In the original Dieckens paper Serbia and Macedonia FYROM are almost folded, which indicates a high congruence of population.

Today it is fashionable to declare themselves and look for some non-existent roots away from Serbia because it is such a policy, and OK, all this is somewhat understandable.

But science is immune to man-made efforts to make someone other than who is, so sooner or later everything comes everything falls into right place.

DejaVu
30-01-11, 14:28
CONGRATULATIONS, YOU JUST PRESENTED FABRICATED FALSIFICATION OF GENETIC STATISTICS.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia 89.8%?
Macedonia 79.8%?
You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?


The original from Mirabal 2010
http://www.haplozone.net/wiki/index.php?title=Mirabal_et_al._(2010)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/abstract

Serbia
I2a 38.54%
R1b 4.5%
R1a 14.5%
E1b1b 17.3%


The original from Pericic 2005
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg
ALL THE SAMPLES TAKEN FROM THE MACEDONIANS, ARE FROM ETHNIC MACEDONIANS AND SAME FOR THE OTHER PEOPLE.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full


Y-DNA haplogroups in European populations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html
"I have decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations. Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

GARRICK, ARE YOU CLAIMING HAPLOGROUP I2A2 OR ANY KIND OF HAPLOGROUP I AS SERBIAN?
WHERE DID YOU GET THE GENETIC STATISTICS?
CAN YOU LINK THE SOURCE TO PERICIC 2005 AND MIRABAL 2010?

Garrick
30-01-11, 16:32
CONGRATULATIONS, YOU JUST PRESENTED FABRICATED FALSIFICATION OF GENETIC STATISTICS.


DejaVu
All the information I have given are completely true that everyone can check.

Pericic et al

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html

Page 4

Macedonian
IE BaltoSlavic
R1b 5,1%
R1a 15,2%
I2a2 29,1 %
E1b1b1 24,1%
J2 6,3%

You can see Dieckens analysis (2005) based on data Pericic et al and other relevant research at the time:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html)

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/416/princomp5or.jpg

After that there were other research I cited the differences.

Probably you are confused about the Mirabal et al (2010) where is the rest of the data.

Because I have a whole article; on the Internet is only available part.

But you can look at the topics were given the results

www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25689&page=4 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25689&page=4)

DejaVu
Many people in Macedonia FYROM (I am quite often in Skopje) know that the Serbs and Macedonians FYROM are close peoples.

And trust me, when they hear someone speaks Serbian exactly see them to cheer.

The problem is not people but politics.

The politics is that of the Slavic Macedonians asked to renounce who they are and to embrace what you have never been, history of other nations, and this is what nature can not last forever, and you will see a time will come when you and I will run a lot constructive discussions.


And as far as I haplogroups in the Balkans, I have never written that it is only Serbian.

Peak is in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia is the second and third in percentage is Croatia and I was giving this information in the other topic, if you want I can repeat.

DejaVu
30-01-11, 16:45
WHY DO YOU POST FAKE RESULTS? ARE YOU BLIND?

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia 89.8%?
Macedonia 79.8%?
You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?




AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,6%____________12,7%
G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
N 3,3% _______________ 0%
L 0,6% _______________ 0%

Serbia 94,3% Total - Serbs
Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - Ethnic Macedonians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html

Garrick
30-01-11, 17:29
WHY DO YOU POST FAKE RESULTS? ARE YOU BLIND?

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia 89.8%?
Macedonia 79.8%?
You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?




AND HERE IS THE REAL RESULTS.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
I1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,6%____________12,7%
G2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
N 3,3% _______________ 0%
L 0,6% _______________ 0%

Serbia 94,3% Total - Serbs
Macedonia (FYROM) 96,3% Total - Ethnic Macedonians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html

DejaVu
Even better, you added missed.

And is there any difference?

Of course that does not exist and it is true that the Serbs and FYROM Macedonians are very close peoples.

Probably you not carefully read Dieckens analysis.

Dieckens
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html
"Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

Essential data are for five haplogroups that he took into consideration, because I1 and G2 do not change much the result, remains practically the same place (but complicates the analysis).


DejaVu
You use big words (ie. profanity) completely useless, and as you can see, I never reciprocate by big words, but soon you will see below the discussion of issues on which we discuss what are in fact the key issues.

DejaVu
30-01-11, 17:34
PAGE 4: Summarized Percent Frequencies of R1b, R1a, I1b* (xM26), E3b1 and J2e.
Where is the rest of the haplogroups?


why do you post fake results? Are you blind?

serbia (mirabal et al 2010), macedonia fyrom (pericic et al, 2005)

serbia and macedonia (fyrom)

i2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
i1 7,8% __________ no data
r1a 14,5_________15,2%
r1b 4,5%_________5,1%
e1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
j2 5,0____________6,3%
g2a 2,2% _________ no data

serbia 89.8%?
macedonia 79.8%?
you know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?




and here is the real results.

serbia (mirabal et al 2010), macedonia fyrom (pericic et al, 2005)

serbia and macedonia (fyrom)

i2a2 38,5%_______29,1%
i1 7,8% __________ 5.0%
r1a 14,5_________15,2%
r1b 4,5%_________5,1%
e1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
j2 5,6%____________12,7%
g2a 2,2% _________ 5,1%
n 3,3% _______________ 0%
l 0,6% _______________ 0%

serbia 94,3% total - serbs
macedonia (fyrom) 96,3% total - ethnic macedonians

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/y-dna_haplogroups_by_groups_in_europe
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/f2.large.jpg
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html

The question is why do you manipulate the genetic statistics?
ARE YOU A SERBIAN NATIONALIST FANATIC?

DejaVu
30-01-11, 17:52
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html)
"Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

Yes, there is a connection between ethnic Macedonians and Serbs but even with Bulgarians and other near areas, the connection is way back before Serbia existed. Can be explained by Sclaviniae.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae
Sklavinia(i) (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Σκλαβινίαι, Latin (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Latin_language): SCLAVINIAE) was the Greek term for the Slav settlements (area, territory) which were initially out of Byzantine control and independent. The term may be interpreted as "Slav lands" in Byzantium. The term is derived from the name Sclaveni (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sclaveni), which was used to describe all Slavic peoples with whom the Byzantine Empire came in contact. The Sclaviniae of the Byzantine Empire eventually became South Slavic nations:

The Serbs (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbs) became allies to the Byzantine Emperor (hypekooi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Mixobarbaroi)) and eventually became independent.
The Bulgars fought the Byzantine Empire and were through a peace treaty after 680 recognized as an independent state (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/First_Bulgarian_Empire), they subsequently merged with the Slavs in Eastern Balkans into the modern nation of Bulgarians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgarians).
The Byzantines broadly grouped the numerous Slav tribes into two groups: the Sklavenoi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Sklavenoi) and Antes (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Antes_(people)). Apparently, the Sklavenoi group were based along the middle Danube, whereas the Antes were at the lower Danube, in Scythia Minor (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Scythia_Minor). Some, such as Bulgarian scholar Zlatarsky, suggest that the first group settled the western Balkans, whilst offshoots of the Antes settled the eastern regions (roughly speaking). From the Danube, they commenced raiding the Byzantine Empire from the 520s, on an annual basis. They spread about destruction, taking loot and herds of cattle, seizing prisoners and taking fortresses. Often, the Byzantine Empire was stretched defending its rich Asian provinces from Arabs, Persians and Turks. This meant that even numerically small, disorganised early Slavic raids were capable of causing much disruption, but could not capture the larger, fortified cities on the Aegean coast.
In 577 some 100,000 Slavs poured into Thrace (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thrace) and Illyricum (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyricum), pillaging cities and settling down. By the 580s, as the Slav communities on the Danube became larger and more organised, and as the Avars exerted their influence, raids became larger and resulted in permanent settlement. In 586 AD, as many as 100,000 Slav warriors raided Thessaloniki. By 581, many Slavic tribes had settled the land around Thessaloniki, though never taking the city itself, creating a Macedonian Sclavinia. As John of Ephesus tells us in 581: "the accursed people of the Slavs set out and plundered all of Greece, the regions surrounding Thessalonica, and Thrace, taking many towns and castles, laying waste, burning, pillaging, and seizing the whole country." However, John exaggerated the intensity of the Slavic incursions since he was influenced by his confinement in Constantinople from 571 up until 579. Moreover, he perceived the Slavs as God's instrument for punishing the persecutors of the Monophysites (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Monophysites). By 586, they managed to raid the western Peloponnese (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Peloponnese), Attica (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Attica), Epirus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Epirus_(region)), leaving only the east part of Peloponnese, which was mountainous and inaccessible. The final attempt to restore the northern border was from 591-605, when the end of conflicts with Persia allowed Emperor Maurice to transfer units to the north. However he was deposed after a military revolt in 602, and the Danubian frontier collapsed one and a half decades later (Main article: Maurice's Balkan campaigns (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Maurice%27s_Balkan_campaigns)).
In 785, Constantine VI conquers the Sclaviniae of Macedonia ('Sclavenias penes Macedoniam').

The Macedonian Slavs, Branichevans, Moravians, Timochans and Draguvites were absorbed by the Serbs and Bulgars. (Same people are in Serbian and Bulgarian population and rest of the neighbours today, but how many is the question?)



http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1...?dopt=Abstract)
Macedonians belong to the "older" Mediterranean substratum, like Iberians (including Basques), North Africans, Italians, French, Cretans, Jews, Lebanese, Turks (Anatolians), Armenians and Iranians, 2) Macedonians are not related with geographically close Greeks, who do not belong to the "older" Mediterranenan substratum, 3) Greeks are found to have a substantial relatedness to sub-Saharan (Ethiopian) people, which separate them from other Mediterranean groups.
Villena 2001 claims that Macedonians are one of the most ancient peoples existing in the Balkan peninsula, probably long before arrival of the "Mycaenian Greeks",Greeks are genetically related to sub-Saharans...

But if Macedonian Sclaviniae were real slavs how come they are one of the oldest European inhabitants?

DejaVu
30-01-11, 18:03
Serbian history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbs
White Serbia or Bojka (Serbian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbian_language): Белa Србиja; Archaic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Archaism): Бојка, Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Boiki), is the mythical homeland of the ancestors of the Serbs (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbs), of the White Serbs (Serbian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbian_language): Бели Срби, Beli Srbi).
The area adjacent to White Serbia was known as White Croatia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/White_Croatia), where the Croats (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Croats) trace their origin. White Serbia and its ethnic designates, the White Serbs, could be interpreted through attributes such as "the unbaptized" or "pagan" (Pre- Christian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Christian)), according to the De administrando imperio.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Migration_of_Serbs.png/600px-Migration_of_Serbs.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Migration_of_Serbs.png)

The term White Serbia (Bela Srbija) is connected with that of Belarus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Belarus) (White Rus (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Rus%27_people)), in this case it may refer to it being an unbaptized land, in relation to the Serbs of the Balkans who were Christian.
Bojka, (Boiki, derived from the Proto-Slavic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Proto-Slavic) *bojь. = battle, war, fight) may be connected with the ethnographic group of Ukrainians, the Boyko (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Boyko), and the Celtic tribe of Boii, who in the 2nd century BC dwelled around the Danube.
The White Serbs formed Rascia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Rascia).






The location of White Serbia has been disputed. It has been described as:

north of the Danube (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Danube) and the Carpathians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Carpathians)
the modern Czech Republic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Czech_Republic)

Bohemia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bohemia)

between the Elbe (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Elbe) and Saale (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Saale) Rivers
Poland (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Poland)
Red Ruthenia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Red_Ruthenia)
Rügen (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/R%C3%BCgen), Svantevit's island in northern Germany.
Lusatia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Lusatia), triangle of Germany, Czech republic and Poland.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2e/Serb_lands04.png/740px-Serb_lands04.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2e/Serb_lands04.png)

Early Serb state during the reign of Zhupan Vlastimir, c. 840 AD
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Balkans850.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2d/Balkans850.png)

House of Vlastimirović
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_of_Vlastimirovi%C4%87

Garrick
30-01-11, 18:14
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08...ations-in.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html)
"Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

A very good test and yes there is a connection between ethnic Macedonians and Serbs but even with Bulgarians and other near areas, the connection is way back before Serbia existed. Can be explained by Sclaviniae.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaviniae




DejaVu,
I must say that you are very unfair and nervous, and it is not clear why, though you see, I am max correct, and I will continue to be.

But the great progress that you saw that Serbia and Macedonia FYROM have a very close population.

Some Bulgarians were disappointed because they thought that the Macedonians nearest Bulgarian population, but they are not.

So no coincidence that the Serbs and Macedonians close to what was once a common state of Yugoslavia.

But we're here not talking about the near history or the Middle Ages.

Just you and I are talking about a much more distant past.

And instead of giving arbitrary, unfair and meaningless conclusions, they are neither for comment, you can read what others write here all the forum and different opinions.

Still not clear that the former tribes makes up the bulk of the present I inhabitants of Serbia and Macedonia, where they are all moving.

But remember, I carriers have for centuries been in big rivers.

It is assumed that the I people have been about great rivers, such as the Danube, Morava and Vardar, for example.

There are assumptions that Vincans were I people but it can be reliably prove the only DNA analysis.

And many others, it is already written enough in this forum.

DejaVu
30-01-11, 18:29
There is no real fact what you are claiming that ethnic Macedonians are same as Serbs. You even tried to fabricate the genetic results, there is no trust in any Serbs today and there is enuff of evidence that Serbs have tried to erase the name Macedonians, thanks to your nationalist propaganda. All Balkan countries had enuff of you Serbs (does not mean Serbs are hated). And the test from Dienekes Pontikos, he is a Greek from Turkey, even that explains alot when he used wrong name "slavic Macedonians" who dont exist. There is only ethnic Macedonians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)

Dont forget what the tread was about "The Serbs" and not the fabricated Serbs that dont exist.
If you have identity problems, go to a doctor maybe that can help you.

Garrick
30-01-11, 18:52
There is no real fact what you are claiming that ethnic Macedonians are same as Serbs. You even tried to fabricate the genetic results, there is no trust in any Serbs today and there is enuff of evidence that Serbs have tried to erase the name Macedonians, thanks to your nationalist propaganda. All Balkan countries had enuff of you Serbs. And the test from Dienekes Pontikos, he is a Greek from Turkey, even that explains alot when he used wrong name "slavic Macedonians" who dont exist. There is only ethnic Macedonians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group)

Dont forget what the tread was about "The Serbs" and not the fabricted Serbs that dont exist.
If you have identity problems, go to a doctor maybe that can help you.

DejaVu
You use hard words again and entirely without reason.

Simply you refuse any other participant of any constructive discussion so qualified, but it is wrong, certainly you have your qualities, and if a little more respected other interlocutors discussion could be much better.

Thus, your words kill any possible discussion (and when the caller sincerely wishes to take any real discussion with you) but what is wrong, there is depletion of some issues that should not provoke such a reaction, but the real problems are genuinely untouched.

DejaVu
30-01-11, 19:01
DejaVu,
But the great progress that you saw that Serbia and Macedonia FYROM have a very close population.

Some Bulgarians were disappointed because they thought that the Macedonians nearest Bulgarian population, but they are not.

So no coincidence that the Serbs and Macedonians close to what was once a common state of Yugoslavia.



You dont know what you are writing, or do you?
Do you know what that means, what you wrote above?
Direct claim on people and territory, as Serbian without any evidence.
You must read the history again or maybe you have learned the nationalistic history of Serbia and the falsification. If you dont know the real history why do you bother to discuss and claim what is untrue?
What is your problem? Do you think that everything matching Serbia is Serbian?

But the great progress that you saw that Serbia and Macedonia FYROM have a very close population?

Some Bulgarians were disappointed because they thought that the Macedonians nearest Bulgarian population, but they are not?

So no coincidence that the Serbs and Macedonians close to what was once a common state of Yugoslavia?

Garrick
30-01-11, 19:17
You dont know what you are writing, or do you?
Do you know what that means, what you wrote above?
Direct claim on people and territory, as Serbian.

See how you all insulted me completely, but it is without reason.

You are acting like a fanatic, and certainly you aren't and you have your qualities, and it's totally unnecessary.

I have no words, but it has nothing to do with my attitude, generally I have a good opinion of Macedonians from former Yugoslavia, and the politics will change, trust me, and you will in a few years to think differently.

Elias2
30-01-11, 19:22
Direct claim on people and territory, as Serbian without any evidence.
You must read the history again or maybe you have learned the nationalistic history of Serbia and the falsification. If you dont know the real history why do you bother to discuss and claim what is untrue?


This is the biggest hypocrasy I have ever seen you say. FYROM has been claiming history from greeks and you say garrick has no right to do it with FYROM?

Garrick stop taking this guy seriously, he's been brainwashed by Tito for far too long. His parents didn't know better, they lived under communism, he has no excuse for his stupidity.

FYROM, fabricating history since 1991! :good_job:

DejaVu
30-01-11, 19:23
Maybe your dream will come true Serbia united with FYROM again and all will speak Serbian and become the fake Serbs, keep on dreaming.

Is it hard to write about Serbian history? Or the history of Serbia is not enuff for the Nationalists?

Vojislav Seselj: Macedonia, Montenegro, Dubrovnik is SERBIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZHKvAJNZqg

Garrick
30-01-11, 19:31
This is the biggest hypocrasy I have ever seen you say. FYROM has been claiming history from greeks and you say garrick has no right to do it with FYROM?

Garrick stop taking this guy seriously, he's been brainwashed by Tito for far too long. His parents didn't know better, they lived under communism, he has no excuse for his stupidity.

FYROM, fabricating history since 1991! :good_job:

Elias

Indeed you're right.

I have tried in every possible way to accept him as a participant, I was maximum correct but I received insults, I really have no words, simply put discussion is not possible.

Itas Argis
31-01-11, 15:42
Maybe your dream will come true Serbia united with FYROM again and all will speak Serbian and become the fake Serbs, keep on dreaming.

Is it hard to write about Serbian history? Or the history of Serbia is not enuff for the Nationalists?

Vojislav Seselj: Macedonia, Montenegro, Dubrovnik is SERBIA
http ...

Now look at this:


Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

And so about the old people with old genes, who instead of a great (or ancient) knowledge, is still wild, primitive and stupid.

Garrick
31-01-11, 20:25
The question is why do you manipulate the genetic statistics?
ARE YOU A SERBIAN NATIONALIST FANATIC?

DejaVu
So you did not read carefully.

Only I left out information that is not relevant to the analysis that was done Dienekes (Dienekes did not take into consideration haplogroups with small precentage in order not be complicated calculation), nor would it change anything in the result because this is a small percentage.

So all the information I have given are correct and you're trying to impute to me something that is not true, you are trying to manipulate.

But I will not say you're FYROM nationalist fanatic or anything else that is offensive.

But I will tell you that YOU ARE VERY AGRESSIVE.

This is because persistently you trying to prove what is unprovable.

All facts and factors, including DNA haplogroups indicate that the Slav Macedonians are close to the Serbs, generaly South Slavs.

But when I say it I do not claim requirements what you're trying to impute to me.

I love Slavic Macedonia.


But I point out the problem:

FYROM Macedonians can not be larger Greeks than the real Greeks.

FYROM Macedonians are Slav Macedonians, a fact.



But the problem that some FYROM Macedonians want to be who they are not, ie. more Greeks than real Greeks is an artificial problem created by the Communists since 1945 and continued by the current FYROM elite.

And FYROM Macedonia now has much bigger problems.

But the elite of FYROM (not just the government) is trying to cover up the real issues with artificial problems and cause unnecessary tension in the region.

But this is not a proper subject for this kind of debate. There is a topic of Macedonia, where you can read the writing about it.

DejaVu
31-01-11, 21:32
FYRO Macedonians or ethnic Macedonians dont consider themselfs anything then ethnic Macedonians and they live all over the world. I have relatives in Serbia Nis and Novi Sad and they live there today as Serbs and there is no hate against any Serbs or other nationality from my side. If I understand your post in my way maybe its wrong, then write much better to understand what your point is, without claiming anything before there is any real evidence.
Can be many reasons why same haplogroup appears in many nations as "I2a2".
I dont accept "I2a2" as Serbian only (because of generalization purpose) and the people of FYRO Macedonia as Serbs, thats all.

how yes no 2
31-01-11, 22:48
oh, that's fine, you can call I2a2 anything you want...
of course it is obvious from spread of I2a2 today, that it is not only Serbian haplogroup, but if we look for ancestors of Serbs and other south Slavs we need to follow the trace of I2a2....

Garrick
02-02-11, 01:35
Itas Argis.
Thanks.
Excellent observation.

Garrick
02-02-11, 02:03
FYRO Macedonians or ethnic Macedonians dont consider themselfs anything then ethnic Macedonians and they live all over the world. I have relatives in Serbia Nis and Novi Sad and they live there today as Serbs and there is no hate against any Serbs or other nationality from my side. If I understand your post in my way maybe its wrong, then write much better to understand what your point is, without claiming anything before there is any real evidence.
Can be many reasons why same haplogroup appears in many nations as "I2a2".
I dont accept "I2a2" as Serbian only (because of generalization purpose) and the people of FYRO Macedonia as Serbs, thats all.

DejaVu
About I2a2 you can read posts of How yes no, Iapodos, Shetop and other, I write also but more deal with haplogroup E.

You can see I2a2 results for countries ex Yugoslavia:



1. Bosnia and Herzegovina (Pericic et al, 2005)
Herzegovina 63,8%
Bosnia 52,2%

2. Serbia 38,5% (Mirabal et al, 2010)
It is interesting Total I in Serbia: 48%

3. Croatia 32,4% (Pericic et al, 2005)
Peak is in Dalmatia.

4. Montenegro 29,2% (Mirabal et al, 2010)

5. Macedonia, FYROM 29,1% (Pericic et al, 2005)

Now look at the absolute amounts:

I2a2

Federation Bosnia and Herzegovina
Bosnia (7 cantons): about 600,000
West South Herzegovina (3 cantons): about 125,000

Republic of Srpska (Serbian) here was not considered.

Croatia: about 700,000

Montenegro: about 90,000

Macedonia FYROM: about 290,000


Serbia: about 1,400,000

Serbs in the Balkans: about 1,800,000

Itas Argis
13-02-11, 13:48
If(!) the Serbs and Croats came into this area that means, probably, that I2a2 carriers are actually ancient people who had fall under serbianisation and croatisation.

But do not be leaded very much by genetic research, they are individually correct, but with the larger number of individuals it decreases, of course. Just because they took samples here and there it doesn't mean it is like that. I hope that is not politicized. But well, at least they investigate.

how yes no 2
13-02-11, 17:48
If(!) the Serbs and Croats came into this area that means, probably, that I2a2 carriers are actually ancient people who had fall under serbianisation and croatisation.

But do not be leaded very much by genetic research, they are individually correct, but with the larger number of individuals it decreases, of course. Just because they took samples here and there it doesn't mean it is like that. I hope that is not politicized. But well, at least they investigate.

so, I guess you suggest that R1a came to Balkan with Slavs while I2a2 are autochtonos people?
I think it was opposite...but R1a and I2a2 were present in both old inhabitants and Slavic settlers... because that is same area of influence...

R1a is as established by Klyosov much much older in south and central Balkan than in all other parts of the world taken together.... which means it didnot come from anywhere, it was always there...

according to Maciamo's map I2a2 also shows up in areas never settled by Slavs - along west coasts of Asia minor, in parts of Greece never settled by Slavic people, along italian Adriatic coast that was settled by Illyrians but not by Slavic people...

Garrick
13-02-11, 19:36
If(!) the Serbs and Croats came into this area that means, probably, that I2a2 carriers are actually ancient people who had fall under serbianisation and croatisation.

But do not be leaded very much by genetic research, they are individually correct, but with the larger number of individuals it decreases, of course. Just because they took samples here and there it doesn't mean it is like that. I hope that is not politicized. But well, at least they investigate.

Itas Argis
Read the post 365133 carefully (topic about Albanians and Berber).

Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:

"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

Slavic Y-DNA R1a in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.

When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.

If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.

Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally are not R1a but I people.

Once the Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the ancient I language.

When I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known.

It is clear that the I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans, but we still does not know exactly who they were. It is assumed for example that I bearers were Vincians people. However, only the research of DNA to be precisely determined. Certainly a few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write.

Regulus
13-02-11, 20:01
Itas Argis
Read the post 365133 carefully (topic about Albanians and Berber).

Scientist Klyosov found about R1a:

"An exception is presented only in the Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about 11.650 ± 1.550 years BP."

Slavic Y-DNA R1a in the Balkans is probably one of the the oldest and it is almost evenly distributed among today's Serbs, Bosnians, Slav Macedonians, Greeks and Albanians, in other words, the Serbs and the Slav Macedonians have only a few percent higher R1a in relation to the Greeks and Albanians.

When someone say the South Slavs it is not about the genetics and anthropology, as the Bosnians, Serbs and Slav Macedonians are not southern Slavs in genetic sense. South Slavic term is related to culture, ie. mostly relating to the people who speak South Slavic languages.

If Slavic DNA in the Balkans exist 11,000 years ago, no, invasion of the Slavs in the seventh century did not exist, it is an illusion.

Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians originally are not R1a but I people.

Once the Serbs, Bosnians and Slav Macedonians spoke another language, now researchers around the world trying to find out who was the ancient I language.

When I peoples received Slavic, R1a languages, is not known.

It is clear that the I tribes long long ago lived in the Balkans, but we still does not know exactly who they were. It is assumed for example that I bearers were Vincians people. However, only the research of DNA to be precisely determined. Certainly a few years, with new DNA and other findings, the history of the Balkans will again write.

Again, I find this explanation to be clear, thorough, but not too lengthy.
It is striking as is appears to make much sense but also brings up points that I had never considered before. I get the feeling that these points are similar to some of those presented by 'How Yes No'. I can now picture an R1a-carrying group of Slavs migrating to this area, merging with local peoples and bringing their language with them.

I have a question for Garrick - Could some of the R1a in the Peloponnese be the result of the pocket of Slavs that existed there for some time after the migrations of the Slavs into the Balkans? The group of Slavs appears to have been distinct for over a hundred years after the decline of the Avars.

iapetoc
13-02-11, 20:46
it is a problem big that
the bind of R1 with I2 people

about the invasions of Slavic people it is mentioned in Historical times, you can't deny that, as a continue up and down, east and west of donau from almost 1rtst to 7 nth century AD

hm
it is an question

if we follow Dys etc of R1a then we have what?
Klyosov R1a is far behind
and I2 is a sum of older and new
or I2 is local and R1a entered,

the only we have to do is to compare the Viking R1a that entered east europe with the older Balkan R1a of Klyosov,
if no extract is found, then?
we search the I2 Dys as a possible gathering by invasions of 500-600 AD or before
if the results are same
I know it is difficult,

how yes no 2
13-02-11, 20:57
[
I have a question for Garrick - Could some of the R1a in the Peloponnese be the result of the pocket of Slavs that existed there for some time after the migrations of the Slavs into the Balkans? The group of Slavs appears to have been distinct for over a hundred years after the decline of the Avars.



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ro2ijOk8JWc/SC8zx6avGkI/AAAAAAAAADQ/7hL-UB7IwTQ/s1600/data.jpg
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

could it be that hotspots of haplpogroups R1a in Rethymnon and Lasithi Plateau in west central Crete and highlands of east most Crete are brought there by Slavs? Of course not...

anyway, your post made me wonder about something....
so I looked up again for Klyosov's paper...


There is no justification in the results of a
"Ukrainian refuge" for the R1a1 ancient population
allegedly 15,000 years ago; instead, evidence has been
obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years
before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two
sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp
and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different
methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia).
(c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations,
present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern
Europe have common ancestors who lived between
3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland,
Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500
ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),
(d) There are two different groups of Indian R1a1
haplotypes; one shows a good match with the Russian
Slavic R1a1 group, having a common ancestor several
hundred years "younger" than the Russian R1a common ancestor (4,050±500 vs. 4,750±500 ybp). This
supports the idea that a proto-Slavic migration to India
as Aryans occurred (mentioned in classic ancient Indian
literature) around 3600 ybp. The other Indian R1a
population is significantly older, with a common ancestor living 7,125±950 ybp; they could have migrated
from South Siberia to South India.
(e) South India Chenchu R1a1 match the current Russian Slavic R1a1 haplotypes, and the Chenchu R1a
common ancestor appeared some 3200±1900 ybp, apparently after the R1a1 migration from the North to
India. Another Chenchu R1a1 lineage originated about
350±350 ybp, around the 17th century CE.
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

oldest Balkan R1a (much much older than in rest of east Europe) is not in Greece, but in Serbia, Macedonia and Bosnia, which equals Serb ethnic space... point is perhaps it is not about ancient old pocket of R1a that was in Balkan, but about ancient old pocket of R1a that has completely moved to Balkan.... however, this is a bit hard issue... R1a in Sorbs should be ancient old as well? what about other settlements along the line from Caucasus to Serbia via Bohemia... according to Byzantine emperor who is only historian who mention settlement of Serbs on Balkan (though with few centuries delay) they came from land of Boika (which based on many issues e.g. neighboring areas can be matched with Bohemia) where they always lived and were called white...now this white is probably about west Serbs = white Serbs as west is designated with white color for iranian and other steppe people.... always lived there should not be taken literary, but it means they lived there long long ago.... but than R1a in Czech republic should be ancient old as well, right? thus, it is possible that Klyosov is right in interpretation of these facts:


The “mapping” of the enormous territory from the
Atlantic through Russia and India to the Pacific, and
from Scandinavia to the Arabian Penisula, reveals that
Haplogroup R1a men are marked with practically the
same ancestral haplotype, which is about 4,500 - 4,700
years “old.” through much of its geographic range.
Exceptions in Europe are found only in the Balkans
(Serbia, Kosovo, Macedonia, Bosnia), where the common ancestor is significantly more ancient, about
11,650±1,550 ybp, and in the Irish, Scottish and Swedish R1a1 populations, which have a significantly
“younger” common ancestor, some thousands years
“younger” compared with the Russian, the German, and
the Poland R1a1 populations. These geographic patterns will be explored below in this section. The
haplogroup name R1a1 is used here to mean Haplogroup R-M17, because that is the meaning in nearly all
of the referenced articles.
The entire map of base (ancestral) haplotypes and their
mutations, as well as “ages” of common ancestors of
R1a1 haplotypes in Europe, Asia, and the Middle East
show that approximately six thousand years ago bearers
of R1a1 haplogroup started to migrate from the Balkans
in all directions, spreading their haplotypes. A recent
excavation of 4,600 year-old R1a1 haplotypes (Haak et
al., 2008) revealed their almost exact match to presentday R1a1 haplotypes, as it is shown below.
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf



anyway, there is older R1a pocket in south Siberia....


Some sources[2] say that the name is derived from the Tatar for "sleeping land." Another version is that this name was the tribal name of the Sybyrs, ancient people later assimilated to Siberian Tatars. It has also been asserted that the name Siberia is connected to the Sabir people. The modern usage of the name appeared in the Russian language after the conquest of the Siberia Khanate.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siberia

so, it can as well be that Serbs were originally R1a people, and in fact that proto-Serbs are origin of other R1a people... note that Sorbs in east Germany have 60% R1a... in same time we have I2a2 as dominant haplogroup in modern Serbs.....question is where did merge of R1a and I2a2 take place.....if it was in Balkan, than how to explain I2a2 hotspot in Bohemia which is the place from which Serbs came to Balkan.... they probably arrived to Bohemia from Ukraine....which is again hotspot of I2a2.... to Ukraine they probably arrived from Kuban area northeast of Black sea (where Siraces who are thought to be the same as Serboi lived)...Kuban area is again hotspot of I2a2... to Kuban area they probably came from Caspian highlands (which is where Serboi tribe lived)...this area also show somewhat elevated I2a2..... and this is not too far from south Siberia..

question is where did mixing of haplogroup I2a and R1a take place....

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png
http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251231666063/home/R1a.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

we know that Scythians are dominantly R1a people and that I2a2 seems to be related to Veneti/Eneti/Antes tribes....

my guess is that mixing of I2a2 and R1a people in same tribe took place in Caspian highlands many thousand years ago...

Serboi would match Seneca's Serians who live in Caspian highlands.... but Seneca also speaks of Serians of northwest China (producing silk in land called Seres/Serica) which is in fact just a bit south of south Sibir, making thus historic link between oldest pocket of R1a in Sibir with the one in Balkan.... however, we can see that there was also haplogroup I in northwest China.... he also talks about Serians of Red sea, and Serians of Europe who dare to cross frozen Danube and who rule over scattered Scythians... mention of proto-Serbs (assumed based on previous that they were called Serians by Seneca) around Danube in Europe in times of Seneca means that expansion of Serbs to Europe was long time ago....

Regulus
14-02-11, 17:56
[QUOTE=how yes no

could it be that hotspots of haplpogroups R1a in Rethymnon and Lasithi Plateau in west central Crete and highlands of east most Crete are brought there by Slavs? Of course not...

anyway, your post made me wonder about something....
so I looked up again for Klyosov's paper...

....[/QUOTE]

How Yes No,
I think that you may have been trying to answer the question that I asked of Garrick. If not, I apologize. If in deed you were, then you did not properly understand my question and I resubmit the following:


My question referred to the pocket of Slavs that remained distinct and presumably in charge of a region in the middle of the Peloponesse, not any part of Crete. The existence of this group that maintained its presence and control for over a hundred years is well known to history. That is why I asked Garrick if he thought that their presence may have consequently created an R1a presence in that region. I don't have a problem with you attempting to answer a question that I posed to another member, but it would be a lot easier if you ensured that you knew what I was asking prior to doing so.

Your posts clearly indicate that you do tremendous amounts of research, but they get packaged into a sort of artillery barrage that makes picking out your main point(s) very difficult. Try using a Dragunov as opposed to an entire division of artillery.

Garrick
14-02-11, 22:08
Again, I find this explanation to be clear, thorough, but not too lengthy.
It is striking as is appears to make much sense but also brings up points that I had never considered before. I get the feeling that these points are similar to some of those presented by 'How Yes No'. I can now picture an R1a-carrying group of Slavs migrating to this area, merging with local peoples and bringing their language with them.

I have a question for Garrick - Could some of the R1a in the Peloponnese be the result of the pocket of Slavs that existed there for some time after the migrations of the Slavs into the Balkans? The group of Slavs appears to have been distinct for over a hundred years after the decline of the Avars.



Regulus
It is very good question but the answer is not easy.

I must say that I read some of the assumptions that the R1a in the Balkans is very old but Klyosov's assumption about 11,650 ± 1550 years BP, is really exceeded all expectations.

What can one say about such bold statements?

Variant a) If the Klyosov is right it is possible that the R1a in the Peloponnese is very very old

Variant b) If we stick to the official history (which has no anchor points in genetic research) R1a may be much more recent,

Variant c) It is possible that the R1a older than the official historiography, but not as old as it claims Klyosov

Variant d) It is possible that part of R1a is very old and the other part is the newer variant

Variant e) it is more a question than an answer, how is it that the Slavs and Avars present only Slavic R1a, and what about the Avar haplogroups?

And so on. Certainly in-depth research, including determination of the age specific population (the time when the population appeared in any territory) are demanding and expensive, researches must find human remains from different periods that can be used to test DNA sample.

However, How and no and I can have the difference in assumptions, which does not mean that one can reliably say who is right, and it is good that there are different views, because only through mutual discussion, we can get closer to the truth.

Own thesis:

Originally, Slavs are R1a people

Originally, Serbs are I people

Serbian people, in genetic terms, are not Slavs

Serbs used I language, completely different from R1a Slavic language

One of the keys to the secrets is discover of ancient I language

How have linked the two very different populations I people and R1a people, and why I people received language and culture of R1a people not known

General confusion, there were in the Balkans and I and R1a populations both of which are old and need to determine how old, also from other parts and I populations and R1a populations came and these populations ranged from the Balkans to Central Europe, Ukraine, Black Sea, Karpata and back to the Balkans

Vinca culture belonged to either I or R1a population

In ancient times and earlier I and R1a tribes probably were classified as some of the Thracian, Celtic, and Illyrian tribes

History of the Balkans will be re-written when it comes to relevant data about population I and R1a

But I and R1a people are completely different, I people probably come from Anatolia and R1a people probably come from Central Asia.

how yes no 2
14-02-11, 23:32
How Yes No,
I think that you may have been trying to answer the question that I asked of Garrick. If not, I apologize. If in deed you were, then you did not properly understand my question and I resubmit the following:


My question referred to the pocket of Slavs that remained distinct and presumably in charge of a region in the middle of the Peloponesse, not any part of Crete. The existence of this group that maintained its presence and control for over a hundred years is well known to history. That is why I asked Garrick if he thought that their presence may have consequently created an R1a presence in that region. I don't have a problem with you attempting to answer a question that I posed to another member, but it would be a lot easier if you ensured that you knew what I was asking prior to doing so.

Your posts clearly indicate that you do tremendous amounts of research, but they get packaged into a sort of artillery barrage that makes picking out your main point(s) very difficult. Try using a Dragunov as opposed to an entire division of artillery.

point is you cannot equate Slavs with R1a, especially that seems to be far from truth for south Slavs...

well, look at Pelloponese....
in Lerna/Franhtichi where you would expect lot of Slav influence, R1a is 1.8%
while haplogroup I is 21.2%

in Serbia R1a is around 15%, and haplogroup I all branches together close to 50%.... similar is in Macedonia and even more extreme in Bosnia....
Montenegro has like 7% of R1a
while non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia who never mixed with Slavs have like 12%....

do you realize now why R1a is not = Slavs? things are more complicated than that....




Variant e) it is more a question than an answer, how is it that the Slavs and Avars present only Slavic R1a, and what about the Avar haplogroups?

Avars were probably J haplogroup...
in Caucasus there are still Avars and they are mainly J haplogroup (71.4%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

part of J haplogroup in Serbia might indicate origin from Avars...
Q might be about Huns...

haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo



However, How and no and I can have the difference in assumptions, which does not mean that one can reliably say who is right, and it is good that there are different views, because only through mutual discussion, we can get closer to the truth.
exactly...



Originally, Slavs are R1a people

Originally, Serbs are I people

Serbian people, in genetic terms, are not Slavs

Serbs used I language, completely different from R1a Slavic language

One of the keys to the secrets is discover of ancient I language

actually, I think that haplogroup I might have originally spread indo-european...

I think so, because Teshub weather god (analog to Zeus in Greece) is in Hatti (pre-Hettite inhabitants of Asia minor) called Taru, and in Germanic people is Thor, while in later Hettite people same god is Tarhun, while in Baltic it is Perkunas and in Slavic is Perun...

Luwian and Hetite language would be origin of Balto-Slavic, while Hatti would be origin of Germanic...early Slavic people are of Veneti race which is I am sure about I2a2 people... and Veneti origin from Eneti of Paphlagonia... thus from Hettite state (there were other haplogroups in various regions of that state)

genetically I relate Hatti with later Getae and them with I2b1... there are two hotspots of I2b1 - germanic tribes and west of Black sea where Getae lived....


Slavic and Germanic did split from PIE rather recently in genetic timeline...

....


Specialists have postulated the existence of such subfamilies (subgroups) as Italo-Celtic, Graeco-Armenian, Graeco-Aryan, and Germanic with Balto-Slavic.
...
The diversification of the parent language into the attested branches of daughter languages is historically unattested. The timeline of the evolution of the various daughter languages, on the other hand, is mostly undisputed, quite regardless of the question of Indo-European origins.


mid 2nd millennium BC distribution


mid 1st millennium BC distribution


post- Roman Empire and Migrations period distribution
2500 BC–2000 BC: The breakup into the proto-languages of the attested dialects is complete. Proto-Greek is spoken in the Balkans, Proto-Indo-Iranian north of the Caspian in the emerging Andronovo culture. The Bronze Age reaches Central Europe with the Beaker culture, likely composed of various Centum dialects. The Tarim mummies possibly correspond to proto-Tocharians.
2000 BC–1500 BC: Catacomb culture north of the Black Sea. The chariot is invented, leading to the split and rapid spread of Iranian and Indo-Aryan from the Bactria-Margiana Archaeological Complex over much of Central Asia, Northern India, Iran and Eastern Anatolia. Proto-Anatolian is split into Hittite and Luwian. The pre-Proto-Celtic Unetice culture has an active metal industry (Nebra skydisk).
1500 BC–1000 BC: The Nordic Bronze Age develops pre-Proto-Germanic, and the (pre)-Proto-Celtic Urnfield and Hallstatt cultures emerge in Central Europe, introducing the Iron Age. Migration of the Proto-Italic speakers into the Italian peninsula (Bagnolo stele). Redaction of the Rigveda and rise of the Vedic civilization in the Punjab. The Mycenaean civilization gives way to the Greek Dark Ages.
1000 BC–500 BC: The Celtic languages spread over Central and Western Europe. Baltic languages are spoken in a huge area from present-day Poland to the Ural Mountains.[28] Proto Germanic. Homer and the beginning of Classical Antiquity. The Vedic Civilization gives way to the Mahajanapadas. Siddhartha Gautama attains enlightenment and preaches Buddhism. Zoroaster composes the Gathas, rise of the Achaemenid Empire, replacing the Elamites and Babylonia. Separation of Proto-Italic into Osco-Umbrian and Latin-Faliscan. Genesis of the Greek and Old Italic alphabets. A variety of Paleo-Balkan languages are spoken in Southern Europe.
500 BC–1 BC/AD: Classical Antiquity: spread of Greek and Latin throughout the Mediterranean, and during the Hellenistic period (Indo-Greeks) to Central Asia and the Hindukush. Kushan Empire, Mauryan Empire. Proto-Germanic. The Anatolian languages are extinct.
1 BC/AD 500: Late Antiquity, Gupta period; attestation of Armenian. Proto-Slavic. The Roman Empire and then the Migration period marginalize the Celtic languages to the British Isles.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages




Vinca culture belonged to either I or R1a population
or mix of two...or J or E.... it is just not known...



In ancient times and earlier I and R1a tribes probably were classified as some of the Thracian, Celtic, and Illyrian tribes
probably...



But I and R1a people are completely different, I people probably come from Anatolia and R1a people probably come from Central Asia.
?
all people ultimately came from Africa....
but indeed genetically speaking I is much closer to J than to R...
as for people being different, well no... culture makes people different more than genetics...

DejaVu
15-02-11, 00:09
You are 100% confused people

Who are Slavs? Is it a language, culture or people?

Some people who are slavs:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
Russia - 46% R1a
Belarus - 49% R1a
Poland - 56,5% R1a

Why is haplogroup I slavic, because of the Serbs?
Who said the inhabitants in Serbia are 100% Serbs or Slavic?
Serbian history in balkan starts with Rascia (Raška)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia
The state(s) anachronistically called Raška were first known collectively as Serbia.

Many different people have joined other people and united for same cause thru history so finding one haplogroup for any kind of country or people is a big joke. Continue for your fantasy search if you believe in it, but the truth is something else.
Did there exist any country with people of same haplogroup in history? Dont think so because of mixture long way back, before any nations existed.

Regulus
15-02-11, 00:20
Regulus
It is very good question but the answer is not easy.

I must say that I read some of the assumptions that the R1a in the Balkans is very old but Klyosov's assumption about 11,650 ± 1550 years BP, is really exceeded all expectations.

What can one say about such bold statements?

Variant a) If the Klyosov is right it is possible that the R1a in the Peloponnese is very very old

Variant b) If we stick to the official history (which has no anchor points in genetic research) R1a may be much more recent,

Variant c) It is possible that the R1a older than the official historiography, but not as old as it claims Klyosov

Variant d) It is possible that part of R1a is very old and the other part is the newer variant

Variant e) it is more a question than an answer, how is it that the Slavs and Avars present only Slavic R1a, and what about the Avar haplogroups?

And so on. Certainly in-depth research, including determination of the age specific population (the time when the population appeared in any territory) are demanding and expensive, researches must find human remains from different periods that can be used to test DNA sample.

However, How and no and I can have the difference in assumptions, which does not mean that one can reliably say who is right, and it is good that there are different views, because only through mutual discussion, we can get closer to the truth.

Own thesis:

Originally, Slavs are R1a people

Originally, Serbs are I people

Serbian people, in genetic terms, are not Slavs

Serbs used I language, completely different from R1a Slavic language

One of the keys to the secrets is discover of ancient I language

How have linked the two very different populations I people and R1a people, and why I people received language and culture of R1a people not known

General confusion, there were in the Balkans and I and R1a populations both of which are old and need to determine how old, also from other parts and I populations and R1a populations came and these populations ranged from the Balkans to Central Europe, Ukraine, Black Sea, Karpata and back to the Balkans

Vinca culture belonged to either I or R1a population

In ancient times and earlier I and R1a tribes probably were classified as some of the Thracian, Celtic, and Illyrian tribes

History of the Balkans will be re-written when it comes to relevant data about population I and R1a

But I and R1a people are completely different, I people probably come from Anatolia and R1a people probably come from Central Asia.

Ok, Understood thank you.

how yes no 2
15-02-11, 00:22
You are 100% confused people

Who are Slavs? Is it a language, culture or people?

Some people who are slavs:
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
Russia - 46% R1a
Belarus - 49% R1a
Poland - 56,5% R1a

Why is haplogroup I slavic, because of the Serbs?
Who said the inhabitants in Serbia are 100% Serbs or Slavic?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia

nope, I think Serbs were originally R1a people... proto-Serbs are mother nation of all R1a people and in very ancient times they lived in Sibir that is named after them... however, Serbs who arrived on Balkan from Bohemia in 7th century are mostly I2a2 people....



evidence has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia). (c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

early Slavs do not appear in R1a areas, but south of it in I2a2 areas... in south Poland, in Ukraine.... directions of their spread match direction of spread of I2a2 as visible on Maciamo's map.....

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png


according to Jordanes early Slavs are of Veneti race, and according to me Veneti are origin of I2a people....

Regulus
15-02-11, 00:28
point is you cannot equate Slavs with R1a, especially that seems to be far from truth for south Slavs...

well, look at Pelloponese....
in Lerna/Franhtichi where you would expect lot of Slav influence, R1a is 1.8%
while haplogroup I is 21.2%

in Serbia R1a is around 15%, and haplogroup I all branches together close to 50%.... similar is in Macedonia and even more extreme in Bosnia....
Montenegro has like 7% of R1a
while non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia who never mixed with Slavs have like 12%....

do you realize now why R1a is not = Slavs? things are more complicated than that....



Avars were probably J haplogroup...
in Caucasus there are still Avars and they are mainly J haplogroup (71.4%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_ethnic_groups

part of J haplogroup in Serbia might indicate origin from Avars...
Q might be about Huns...

haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo



exactly...




actually, I think that haplogroup I might have originally spread indo-european...

I think so, because Teshub weather god (analog to Zeus in Greece) is in Hatti (pre-Hettite inhabitants of Asia minor) called Taru, and in Germanic people is Thor, while in later Hettite people same god is Tarhun, while in Baltic it is Perkunas and in Slavic is Perun...

Luwian and Hetite language would be origin of Balto-Slavic, while Hatti would be origin of Germanic...early Slavic people are of Veneti race which is I am sure about I2a2 people... and Veneti origin from Eneti of Paphlagonia... thus from Hettite state (there were other haplogroups in various regions of that state)

genetically I relate Hatti with later Getae and them with I2b1... there are two hotspots of I2b1 - germanic tribes and west of Black sea where Getae lived....


Slavic and Germanic did split from PIE rather recently in genetic timeline...

....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages




or mix of two...or J or E.... it is just not known...


probably...



?
all people ultimately came from Africa....
but indeed genetically speaking I is much closer to J than to R...
as for people being different, well no... culture makes people different more than genetics...


OK that was much more succinct thank you.

It is easier to pick up what you are saying now. I see your points about your position of the I people being the Indo European-bearers. I myself still strongly go with the R1b1b2/R1a thesis at this time but I am open to learning more. Whatever happened, it is clear that the 'I' people were an exceptionally vigorous group. The ancient accounts of the Germans seems to be comparable to that of what people here think of Southern Slavs as far as their physical makeup.

DejaVu
15-02-11, 00:32
nope, Serbs were originally R1a people... proto-Serbs are mother nation of all R1a people and in very ancient times they lived in Sibir that is named after them...


http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

early Slavs do not appear in R1a areas, but south of it in I2a2 areas... in south Poland, in Ukraine.... directions of their spread match direction of spread of I2a2 as visible on Maciamo's map.....

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png


according to Jordanes early Slavs are of Veneti race, and according to me Veneti are origin of I2a people....

Proto Serbs dont exist and never existed, where did you get that from?
Serbia is a new name if you compare it to many ancient nations in Balkan or Europe.
SIBIR? The name Sibir must be the oldest surviving name in history or is it? Since when is it Called Siberia? Tracking back word names are really useless in genetics because of the timeline, and many names have been given by other countries or people who wrote history. Thats why its confusing with who the real inhabitans were when they was conquered and given other names.

how yes no 2
15-02-11, 00:34
OK that was much more succinct thank you.

It is easier to pick up what you are saying now.

To further illustrate the point, look at R1a map...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

Magyars settled area previously settled by Slavs...so they settled in center of Hungary and pushed Slavs to east and west...now, south Slavs, central Ukraine and Romania cluster with east and west Hungary, but not with center...
however center is R1a dominant and not east or west of it... which means Magyars brought R1a in not so much R1a area....

look at hotspot of R1a in north Greece..... it is higher than in surrounding Slavic lands...

now look at ancient Macedonia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/57/Map_Peloponnesian_War_431_BC-en.svg/750px-Map_Peloponnesian_War_431_BC-en.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Map_Macedonia_336_BC-en.svg/749px-Map_Macedonia_336_BC-en.svg.png

how yes no 2
15-02-11, 00:39
Proto Serbs dont exist and never existed, where did you get that from?
you have difficulties to understand basic notions...
proto-Serbs means people from whom Serbs origin....
there are proto-Serbs, as there are proto-Albanians, proto-Greeks, proto-Germans, proto-whatever nation

not sure there are proto-FYRM Macedonians
as it is very likely that ancient Macedonians were Serbo-Greeks and has nothing to do with Macedonians of today who are Serbo-Bulgars...



Serbia is a new name if you compare it to many ancient nations in Balkan or Europe.
SIBIR? The name Sibir must be the oldest surviving name in history or is it?

read again quote from Klyosov about oldness of R1a throughout world...there are two ancient old pockets of it - South Sibir and Serb populated lands..doesn't that ring a bell?

DejaVu
15-02-11, 00:43
you have difficulties to understand basic notions...
proto-Serbs means people from whom Serbs origin....
there are proto-Serbs, as there are proto-Albanians, proto-Greeks, proto-Germans, proto--

not sure there are proto-FYRM Macedonians
as it is very likely that ancient Macedonians were Serbo-Greeks and has nothing to do with Macedonians of today who are Serbo-Bulgars...

But who are the Serbs geneticlly? How can you mention Proto Serbs when it does not fit in who the real users (haplogroup) of the name Serbs belong to?
Does it even have to do with any kind of other similar names compared to Serbs or Serbia?
Kings or Rulers of any people or country dont need to be of same stock and thats a fact.
For who did the name Serb or Serbia belong to, the rulers or the people?

how yes no 2
15-02-11, 00:56
But who are the Serbs geneticlly? How can you mention Proto Serbs when it does not fit in who the real users (haplogroup) of the name Serbs belong to?
Does it even have to do with any kind of other similar names compared to Serbs or Serbia?

tribal names are identity...
YDNA haplogroup is just small part of our DNA... it can be replaced in 2 generations of invaders as it reflects only direct male line.... also it can be dilluted in YDNA of subjugated more populous tribe..

however, YDNA haplogroup is very useful for detecting recent movements of people...

there are two important things about YDNA haplogroups - frequency and variance... frequency speaks of recent past, variance of more distant past...

in case of Serbs unprecedented oldness of R1a speaks of their ancestors being also ancestors of all other R1a people in Europe (note that other direction doesnot hold)... this is about past that we can date in tens of thousands years ago...

but Serbs are also massive carriers of I2a2 haplogroup, which is about more recent past, that is about past from last several thousand years ago...when somehow merge of some I2 (perhaps not yet I2a2) and some R1a people happened, probably preserving R1a tribal name which may indicate that it was about R1a people ruling over I2 people...

this could have been as recent as 500 AD, since Sorbs in east Germany are R1a dominant people...
but Serbs came from Bohemia which is I2a2 hotpot, they probably came there via Ukraine which is also I2a2 hotspot, they probably came to Ukraine from Kuban region northeast of Black sea (Siraces tribe that are considered to be same as Serboi) that is also I2a2 hotspot, they probably came to Kuban region from Caspian shores where tribe Serboi lived, which is most east place with decent I2a2).....

when R1a proto-Serbs (R1a forefathers of Serbs) took aforementioned path and spread to Balkan is hard to say...there are two options:
1) 11000 years ago.... from south Sibir to Balkan
2) 100 AD from Caspian highlands to Kuban region, 200 AD from Kuban region to Ukraine, 500 AD from Ukraine to Bohemia, 700 AD from Bohemia to Serbia...note that whole this route is through I2a2 people...alternatively, I2a2 could have been trace of Serboi...

regarding the merge of I2 and R1a note that some Byzantine historians used name Sarbans for Serbs...
there are another Sarbans in Afghanistan... Pasthun tribe...

Pasthuns have lot of R1a...
and Pasthun Sarbans can be distinguished by traces of haplogroup I* that in that part of Asia exactly matches Sarbans...

so, merge of R1a and I2 haplogroups as visible in Serbs and other Slavs may be ancient old...... and I2 might have in fact developed from I* that lived among R1a people, as it is hard to find high frequencies of I2 without R1a context....

DejaVu
15-02-11, 01:08
Does not fit in history at all, with your version.
Serbs must be some chameleon people like Albanians who got 10 identities and came up with one name when they wanted to tell the truth to the other people, what a joke.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png/791px-Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png)
Moesia Superior in the 4th century
The region was inhabited chiefly by Thraco (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thracians)-Dacians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dacians), and Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrian) peoples. The name of the region comes from Moesi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Moesi), Thraco-Dacian peoples who lived there before the Roman conquest (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_Empire).

Dalmatia
Dalmatia's name is derived from the name of an Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrians) tribe called the Dalmatae (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dalmatae) who lived in the area of the eastern Adriatic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Adriatic) coast in the 1st millennium BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/1st_millennium_BC). It was part of the Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyria) Kingdom between the 4th century BC and the Illyrian Wars (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrian_Wars) (220, 168 BC) when the Roman Republic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_Republic) established its protectorate south of the river Neretva (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Neretva). The name "Dalmatia" was in use probably from the second half of the 2nd century BC and certainly from the first half of the 1st century BC, defining a coastal area of the eastern Adriatic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Adriatic_sea) between the Krka (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Krka_(Croatia)) and Neretva (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Neretva) rivers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia


Where are the Slavs or Serbs in 4th century? Where is the name of Serbs and Serbia?
Serbs could be Thracians, Illyrians and many more geneticlly or?
The name dont really need to be or have anything to do with the original population of the Serb Nation.

No wonder why Serbs are talking about Srbija do Tokia (Serbia to Tokyo) what a nationalistic claim.
Maybe Serbia inventet the haplogroup R1a and it was a Serb who was first with it and spread it to all under the name Serb, Sorb or whatever that sounds similar. Where R1a settled the used the name matching with Serb, what a joke.

how yes no 2
15-02-11, 01:58
Does not fit in history at all, with your version.
Serbs must be some chameleon people like Albanians who got 10 identities and came up with one name when they wanted to tell the truth to the other people, what a joke.
only joke people are Serbo-Bulgarians who want to carry name of not anymore existing Serbo-Greek tribe...

Serbo-Bulgarians is about Bulgarian language that you speak and dominant Serbo-Slavic I2a2 imprint of FYRM MAcedonians of today....

Serbo-Greek is about ancient old R1a people who subjugated Greek tribes and adopted their language....




Moesia Superior in the 4th century

The region was inhabited chiefly by....

you forget Scordisci


The Scordisci (Greek,"Σκορδίσκοι") were an ancient Celtic tribe centered in what would become the Roman Provinces of lower Pannonia, Moesia and present-day Serbia at the confluence of the Savus[1] (Sava), Dravus[2] (Drava) and Danube rivers. They were historically notable from the beginning of the third century BC until the turn of the common era. At their zenith, their influence stretched over regions comprising parts of the present-day Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina. Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus[3] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyria and Paionia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

and same Celtic tribe also recorded under name Serdi


The Serdi were a Celtic tribe[1] inhabiting Thrace. They were located around Serdika,(Greek: Σαρδική or Σαρδῶν πόλις)[2]. They established themselves in this area during the Celtic migrations at the end of the 4th century BC. There is no evidence for their existence before the 1st century BC. They were gradually Thracianized over the centuries but retained their Celtic character up to a late date.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/ThracianTribes.jpg/300px-ThracianTribes.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

now what about Serians/Seres dwelling upon mount Athos according to Herodotous in times of ancient Greece, and around Danube in times of Roman empire according to Seneca....but also in central Asia (= south Siberia), and in arc from northwest China to India (= position of Sarbans), and around Red sea( = Sabeans/Sheba which leads us to name origin from legendary queen of Sheba whose name in her south countries was known as Makeda, hence traditional name Macedonians for south most Serbs)


Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres


in ancient Greece there is story of Seres living very long.......
Pliny (23 AD – August 25, 79) quotes Aristotle that there are also Seres who live above mount Athos ( in Greece) who live up to 140 years...




Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

Seres dwell upon mount Athos.... isn't that more or less where ancient Macedonia is?



[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Serians are obviously same as Seres, as location is same, and both names are often mentioned in reference to secret of silk production... I guess Seres would be ancient Greece term, Serians early Roman empire term...

Serians in Caspian highlands who live unguarded from Sarmatians do match position of Serboi tribe and I2a2 is elevated in spread from that area to Kuban area of northeast coast from Black sea where Siraces (thought to be same as Serboi) lived...

on this map you can find Serboi as Serbi, recorded in Caspian highlands in Asian Sarmatia...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

you can also read about Siraces living in Kuban region till 200 AD being same as Serboi


They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces

medieval Russian primary chronic indicates that early Slavs lived in areas besides Danube where now Hungarian and Bulgarian lands lie...which again coincides with I2a2 spreading along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia...



After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

and again spread along Danube (or lands of Hungaria and Bulgaria) is location that fits Seneca's mention of Serians in Europe... as they are the ones who dare to cross over frozen Danube.... and also the ones who ruled over scattered Scythians (Dacians in some translations)...

spread of Roman empire causes their migration to north... notice that Scordisci lived along Danube, Sava and Morava valleys...and Thracians (also tribe Serdi among them) in lower Danube in Bulgaria....notice that both Scordisci and Thracians disappear from Balkan at time of spread of Roman empire... than with decline of Roman empire you have Serbs and Croats coming back from north areas to Balkan....

besides notice that name Thracians is same tribal name as Rascians (first medival Serb state is Raska) and also in fact same tribal name as Russians.....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia

note that Etruscans who were also R1a carriers called themselves Rasena (Serbs are Rasani, Russians are Rusi) while Greeks called them Thyrsenians also inserting letter 'T' in front of the word...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscans



No wonder why Serbs are talking about Srbija do Tokia (Serbia to Tokyo) what a nationalistic claim.
Serbia is almost till Tokio as Sibir is still held by R1a offspring of proto-Serbs... :)



Maybe Serbia inventet the haplogroup R1a and it was a Serb who was first with it and spread it to all under the name Serb, Sorb or whatever that sounds similar. Where R1a settled the used the name Serb, what a joke.
we have two pockets of ancient R1a one in south Siberia and other in Serbia...
and we have Serians as link between them... as Serians lived in central Asia, but also upon mount Athos in north Greece and around Danube...

well, I know it is hard to accept, but it is kind of obvious who were Serians and who is origin of both R1a and I2a2 in Bulgarian speaking Serbs that misuse name of not anymore existing Serbo-Greek tribe .. :)

DejaVu
15-02-11, 02:13
All with Haplogroups I2a2 & R1a is Serbian and that means all who have those are Serbs?

Why do Serbs exclusively have chameleon names and tribe belonging of their nation and people? (Celts, Slavs or whatever the name matching)
Only The Serbs (100% Serbs in Serbia) in Balkan got the name left from the belonging tribes? (The chosen ones)

Mostly here in this forum will laugh about your explanation.
Get serious or be ignored even by Serbs, this is way to much claim in any history of any kind of people and country. Why dont you even claim humans as Serbian if you want to go that far.

Garrick
15-02-11, 02:17
Does not fit in history at all, with your version.
Serbs must be some chameleon people like Albanians who got 10 identities and came up with one name when they wanted to tell the truth to the other people, what a joke.

Moesia Superior in the 4th century
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5e/Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png/791px-Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5e/Ancient_balkans_4thcentury.png)
The region was inhabited chiefly by Thraco (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thracians)-Dacians (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dacians), and Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrian) peoples. The name of the region comes from Moesi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Moesi), Thraco-Dacian peoples who lived there before the Roman conquest (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_Empire).

Dalmatia
Dalmatia's name is derived from the name of an Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrians) tribe called the Dalmatae (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Dalmatae) who lived in the area of the eastern Adriatic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Adriatic) coast in the 1st millennium BC (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/1st_millennium_BC). It was part of the Illyrian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyria) Kingdom between the 4th century BC and the Illyrian Wars (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Illyrian_Wars) (220, 168 BC) when the Roman Republic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Roman_Republic) established its protectorate south of the river Neretva (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Neretva). The name "Dalmatia" was in use probably from the second half of the 2nd century BC and certainly from the first half of the 1st century BC, defining a coastal area of the eastern Adriatic (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Adriatic_sea) between the Krka (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Krka_(Croatia)) and Neretva (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Neretva) rivers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia


Where are the Slavs or Serbs in 4th century? Where is the name of Serbs and Serbia?
Serbs could be Tharcians, Illyrians and many more geneticlly or?

No wonder why Serbs are talking about Srbija do Tokia (Serbia to Tokyo) what a nationalistic claim.
Maybe Serbia inventet the haplogroup R1a and it was a Serb who was first with it and spread it to all under the name Serb, Sorb or whatever that sounds similar. Where R1a settled the used the name matching with Serb, what a joke.

DejaVu
That you are talking is the propaganda.

But unlike you who sue the other, none will sue you.

Just you do not know or do not read.

There are historical sources, the Greek/Byzantine and others, in which the Balkan tribes associated with the Serbs and I have given it.

Certainly, Y-DNA tests will determine who tribes were I bearers in the Balkans, and that is not disputable.

What is controversial is the fact that How yes no has one assumption and I have the other.

I do not know which of the two of us are right, but one is.

How yes no argues that the proto Serb were R1a people and I would argue that the proto Serbs were I people.

May be to establish rigorous scientific tests but it requires resources, time, you know how goes the learning curve, so put together a mosaic of knowledge.

But it's really nothing to do with propaganda, because a sentence "Serbia to Tokyo", which you underlined, is just it.

You do not understand neither the meaning of this sentence.

And you know that this sentence has little to do with this discussion between me and How yes no.

Once I told How yes no that Serbian nationalists would like the Serbs have the opposite percent that R1a is 48% and I is 14%.

On the other hand, Croatian nationalists would like to have more I and less R1a.

A quite normal that the Croats have more R1a when a large part of the Pannonian plain was full of Slavs and it is clear that the word Slavonia says that it is a Slavic country.

But you see the irony, Serbs are dominant I the people and the Croats still prevails R1a.

So with the nationalists and propagandists and all idelogists is difficult to talk because they do not want to discuss, no facts, no sources, no information, nothing.

But personally I got used to the nationalists and other ideologists, so that everything has a way, in fact one can adapt, what the objective is difficult is extracting some truth from scarce data, and the fact is that still not enough data, research, analysis and others about the haplogroups, in particular in relation to the past, to be able to draw relevant conclusions.

So it is no wonder that the How yes no and I have opposite views on such an important issue, but we have not bothered to discuss with each other, although certainly one of the two of us are right and others wrong.

Much more water will flow along the Sava and Danube until it is proven which of the two of us closer to the truth.

DejaVu
15-02-11, 02:29
There are historical sources, the Greek/Byzantine and others, in which the Balkan tribes associated with the Serbs and I have given it.

Try again with sources.

how yes no 2
15-02-11, 02:41
All with Haplogroups I2a2 & R1a is Serbian and that means all who have those are Serbs?

Why do Serbs exclusively have chameleon names and tribe belonging of their nation and people? (Celts, Slavs or whatever the name matching)
Only The Serbs (100% Serbs in Serbia) in Balkan got the name left from the belonging tribes? (The chosen ones)

Mostly here in this forum will laugh about your explanation.
Get serious or be ignored even by Serbs, this is way to much claim in any history of any kind of people and country. Why dont you even claim humans as Serbian if you want to go that far.

nope, what you keep posting is propaganda...

everything I said in previous post is based on facts, on quotations from credible historic sources.... read again...think of it...research on your own...think again... and you will see that what I propose in previous post is very logical and very solid explanation of historical developments of Serb people.....

possible mapping to haplogroups would be:
tribal name Thracians = Russians = Rascians (Serb medieval alternative name) = Rasena (Etruscans) = R1a
tribal name Seres = Scordisci = Serdi = Serboi = Sarbans = Serbs = Siraces = Scirii = Serians = I2a2 + R1a

Thracians + Scordisci = Slavs living around Danube in Bulgaria and Hungary of times when Russian primary chronicle was written and migrating north after Vlakhs (Romans) started their conquest....

ancient Macedonians were not counted in Slavs in Russian primary chronicle as they were hellenized Thracians and thus not culturally related to other Slavs....
Macedonians of today are mix of recent spread of Slavs from north with romanized Paionians (ancient Macedonia was more to the south).... ancient Macedonians were originally Thracians or Serians, but they subjugated Greek tribes and accepted their language and culture... indication for this you have in Greek mythology,
where Macedon is related to other Hellenic people (who origin from Hellen) via female line...(new nation is made out of invaders = male and subjugated = female and is in myths represented with birth of new person whose parents describe invader and subjugated tribes... often if invader is foreign not Greek nation than father was of course Zeus, who disguised in ant or whatever foreign tribe reminds of, in order to punish Greek people for some sin)

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=365329&postcount=463

Garrick
15-02-11, 02:45
To tell you honestly DejaVu, if you noticed, with you I do not have any particular desire to discuss.

You much insulted me, I can understand the passion and desire to say something, and trying to defend your opinions, all I can understand, but sentences and language that you used, I can you give some examples to see what you wrote, believe me, there is little sense.

What is still bad, you did not understand some sentences of which I spoke, and when I was in line with some of your ideas, however, and this is truth, though now, from this perspective, there are my few posts which I would now deleted because I was a bit resentful, and started to build on some sentences that are not usually my style.

DejaVu
15-02-11, 02:45
nope, what you keep posting is propaganda...

everything I said in previous post is based on facts, on quotations from credible historic sources.... read again...think of it...research on your own...think again... and you will see that what I propose in previous post is very logical and very solid explanation of historical developments of Serb people.....

Your version is your own or the Serbian version of history or maybe its the known fact over the world? Cant find the information you posted as Serbian history on the web.

DejaVu
15-02-11, 02:47
To tell you honestly DejaVu, if you noticed, with you I do not have any particular desire to discuss.

You much insulted me, I can understand the passion and desire to say something, and trying to defend your opinions, all I can understand, but sentences and language that you used, I can you give some examples to see what you wrote, believe me, there is little sense.

What is still bad, you did not understand some sentences of which I spoke, and when I was in line with some of your ideas, however, and this is truth, though now, from this perspective, there are my few posts which I would now deleted because I was a bit resentful, and started to build on some sentences that are not usually my style.

"There are historical sources, the Greek/Byzantine and others, in which the Balkan tribes associated with the Serbs and I have given it."
Do it for your own people and the others here, not for me and try again with sources.

how yes no 2
15-02-11, 03:11
Your version is your own or the Serbian version of history or maybe its the known fact over the world? Cant find the information you posted as Serbian history on the web.

that is because official historians in Serbia are too lazy to search own history in historical sources, even though today with computers it is very easy to search large texts for short time... and unoffical historians are mythomans who wrongly see proto-Serbs where they are not, but systematically fail to see them where they are...

besides official historians were in communism brainwashed with 19 th century Germanic school of history that puts Slavs in position of cowards who breathe on straws hiidng from mighty Germans...of course that is same school who made Veneti Germanic people, even though Jordanes states clearly that early Slavs are of Veneti race.... same school that claims it is coincidence that Slavs were called Wends and that it is about they moving into land where Veneti previously lived...

now, one has to be idiot not to see that that was clearly 18th and 19th century politically motivated theory in order to claim Poland as Germanic land... and also to invent historic right on keeping east most Germany that was in those days still fairly aware of its Slavic origin...


Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36)
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html
Jordanes- origin and deeds of Goths

Garrick
15-02-11, 03:45
"There are historical sources, the Greek/Byzantine and others, in which the Balkan tribes associated with the Serbs and I have given it."
Do it for your own people and the others here, not for me and try again with sources.

DejaVu
Just because you do not want to look at is your problem.

I told you, I wrote but on another topic.

I give an example.

Triballians
The Triballi (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Triballi) (Greek (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Greek_language): Τριβαλλοί, Bulgarian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Bulgarian_language), Serbian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbian_language): Трибали/Tribali) were an ancient Thracian (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Thracians) tribe whose dominion was around the plains of southern modern Serbia[14] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-13)[15] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-GG-14) and west Bulgaria, at the Angrus and Brongus (the South and West Morava (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Morava_rivers,_Serbia)) and the Iskur River (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Iskur_River), roughly centered where Serbia and Bulgaria are joined.[15] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-GG-14)
This Thracian tribe has etymologically (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Etymologically) been connected with the Serbs,[16] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-15)[17] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-16) as many medieval Byzantine historians referred to the Serbs as the Triballians[18] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-17) (Serbian name for Triballians is "Srblji/Србљи", Thracians is rašani - the first Serbian state was Rascia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Rascia), present-day Serbia (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Serbia)). Trebinje (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Trebinje), a present city of Herzegovina (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Herzegovina) and historical Serbian principality (Travunija (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Travunija), sometimes rendered as Triballia) has also been connected with this tribe.
From the 11th century until the fall of the Byzantine Empire, the Serbs were called Triballians in Byzantine works.[19] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-JSTOR1-18)[20] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-19)[21] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-20)[22] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-21)[23] (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/#cite_note-22) For example in the works of historian Niketas Choniates (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Niketas_Choniates) (1155–1215), Emperor Manuel II Palaiologos (http://www.eupedia.com/wiki/Manuel_II_Palaiologos) (1391–1425), it is explained that Triballians are synonymous with Serbs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Serbs_and_Serbia

[16] The letters of Manuel II Palaeologus (http://books.google.se/books?id=AdbgOudLnj4C)


Manuel II Palaeologus (Emperor of the East) (http://www.google.se/search?hl=sr&tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=+inauthor:%22Manuel+II+Palaeologus+(Emperor+of+t he+East)%22)

http://books.google.se/books?id=AdbgOudLnj4C

[18] The development of the Komnenian army: 1081-1180 (http://books.google.se/books?id=p8OOoGWRC2EC)

[19] JSTOR: The English Historical Review, Vol. 53, No. 209 (Jan., 1938), pp. 129-131 (http://www.jstor.org/pss/554790)

[20] Mehmed II the Conqueror and the fall of the Franco-Byzantine Levant to the Ottoman Turks (http://books.google.se/?id=VGdoAAAAMAAJ&q=triballians) Page 65, 77: "Triballians = Serbs"

[21] The letters of Manuel II Palaeologus (http://books.google.se/?id=AdbgOudLnj4C&pg=PA48&dq=triballians) Page 48: "The Triballians are the Serbs"

[22] The Journal of Hellenic studies (http://books.google.se/?id=jFPQAAAAMAAJ&q=triballians) Page 48: "Byzantine historians [...] calling [...] Serbs Triballians"

[23] Studies in late Byzantine history and prosopography (http://books.google.se/?id=XnKgAAAAMAAJ) Page 228: "Serbs (were) Triballians"


...
Triballians are one of the Serbian tribes, and as you can see the they are Thracians.

You can easily draw the conclusion that the Serbs = Thracians.

In my estimation Triballians were I carriers.

I have already said, I disagree with the How yes no but very appreciate his efforts.

My thinking is that originally Serbs were I the people as today, and not R1a.

StillSRB
16-02-11, 09:08
All you need to know about the Y-dna of Serbs and Montenegrins is in the below link.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25997
Also it's clear that there is not enough research done in Serbia on Y haplogroups.
Not to mention that the current ethnic definition of a Serb is always changing, when under Ottoman rule a Serb was a Slavic speaker of Orthodox faith with no affiliation to Bulgars. This ruled out all the Serbs who converted to the Islamic faith. Also Serbs from different regions of Serbia and Balkans are very different. A Serb from Kosovo is different from a Serb from Vojvodina, and a Serb from Montenegro is different from a Serb from Timocka Krajna, just like a Serb from Bosnia is different from a Serb from Sumadija. Anyway until further research is done within the different micro regions of Serbia the modern day Serb can't truly be known. Serbs have also on a number of different occasions lost a large amount of the male population, the two most known examples being WWI and the battle of Kosovo, making current Y-DNA a little less reliable when looking into the past for answers. It seems to me that you are all using the lack of current data to propagate your own theories of Serbs or what you want the Serbs to be. Also I think this thread was created by Dejavu just for the sake of arguing, so I think it should be closed down.

Garrick
16-02-11, 21:35
StillSrb,
My opinion is that with R1a among the Serbs is exaggerated.

In accordance Klyosov, R1a in Serbia, Bosnia, Macedonia, FYROM, and possibly Greece and Albania belong ancient Balkans people, although perhaps if there was some migration of the Slavs in the seventh century AD, some R1a came then.

However, I am persuaded, that Proto Serbs, and today's Serbs and all Serbs in the distant and near history are I people.

Of course, it is good to research Y-DNA people during the Nemanjic Dynasty, and in 10 and 5 century AD, 10, 20, 50 centuries BC, Vincians and so on.

However, Nemanjices are very likely to be I people, and many others Serbs during the written and unwritten of history. The Americans carried out the Y DNA of some famous American historical figures who originally were Serbs and they were haplogroup I.

Regardless of whether Serbs from Bosnia, Herzegovina, Sumadija, or Kosovo, and so on are different, no they aren't, high probability they are the I haplogroup. What is often neglected in American research Mirabal et al, that is real scientific research haplogroup in the territory of Serbia, is in Serbia 16% of the population are ethnic minorities.

So if I haplogroup in Serbia is 48%, among ethnic Serbs, the percentage may be higher and exceed 50%, it can for example 55% or another, you should make a special investigation, and by region.

Another issue is the language and culture that is R1a origin, therefore it is once, to own opinion, there was I language spoken by Proto Serbs.

When and why I people received R1a language is not known, but it could be a long, long time, since the R1a live in the Balkans, 11,000 years if the scientist Klyosov right.

I think we should explore Vincians Haplogroups because they can be one of the keys to unraveling the secrets.

So receiving R1a language that could have happened much earlier than in the written history, and this is something that we do not know.

However, that the original Serbs were I people should not have doubts, at least I have no doubt, and those who seek to prove that the Serbs originally were R1a people would have to find a very strong evidence based on what basis such a claim, but if someone look at the facts of such arguments can hardly be.

And the word Serb is not Slavic. The word Serb is very very old, term can be found throughout Europe and Asia, including India. There is no agreement what the term in an old I language could exact mean, it is mentioned: a human, a cousin, alive, strong, a guardian, etc.

To me not be misunderstood, really have nothing against R1a, I’m just a researcher working on the basis of available data from all eras concluded that the Proto Serbs and Serbs from the beginning were the I people.

...
Just talking on the facts about those who are propagandists/ideologists, trying to prove that one people are (falsely) other people, and taking the history of others, not worth discussing.

how yes no 2
16-02-11, 22:03
Another issue is the language and culture that is R1a origin, therefore it is once, to own opinion, there was I language spoken by Proto Serbs.
....
To me not be misunderstood, really have nothing against R1a, I’m just a researcher working on the basis of available data from all eras concluded that the Proto Serbs and Serbs from the beginning were the I people.
you obviously have something against R1a being related to Serbs...

thing is there is strong correlation in spread of R1b with I1 and Ra1 with I2... this suggest possible scenario in which R and I people probably were mixed in very ancient history... with part of R-I mix surviving ice age in one refuge and part in another giving rise to R1b-I1 vs R1a-I2 mix..... e.g. it seems that Pasthun Sarbans have mix of R1a and I* haplogroup... and among R1b- I1 people you have tribal names like Suebi and Swedes that are in my opinion derived from same tribal name as Serbs and Sarbans....though there is name Sardinia name for I2a1 people...


if however R1a and I were separate people, there are high chances that proto-Serbs were originally (thousands or tens thousands years ago) R1a...well, you say yourself that language Serbs speak is R1a language.... and there is saying in Serbia "speak Serbian so that whole world understands you" which probably reflects some past time emotion of being proud that own language was widely accepted by other people.... indo-european languages are closest to PIE in R1a areas from India to Poland...besides, Sorbs in east Germany are most R1a people in the world...word Sibir/Siberia likely origin of tribal name of people who lived there and R1a has two pockets where it is ancient old - among Serbs of Balkan and in Siberia.... that cannot be coincidence.... all this suggests that tribal name Serb was related to R1a... on other hand as Sardinia tribal name is about I2a1 people, it is also highly possible that originally tribal name Serbs was related to haplogroup I.... in fact, I think R and I were mixed long long time ago as I proposed in previous paragraph... and tribal name Serbs is derivation from tribal name that was about R-I mix...



All you need to know about the Y-dna of Serbs and Montenegrins is in the below link.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25997
Also it's clear that there is not enough research done in Serbia on Y haplogroups.
Not to mention that the current ethnic definition of a Serb is always changing, when under Ottoman rule a Serb was a Slavic speaker of Orthodox faith with no affiliation to Bulgars. This ruled out all the Serbs who converted to the Islamic faith. Also Serbs from different regions of Serbia and Balkans are very different. A Serb from Kosovo is different from a Serb from Vojvodina, and a Serb from Montenegro is different from a Serb from Timocka Krajna, just like a Serb from Bosnia is different from a Serb from Sumadija. Anyway until further research is done within the different micro regions of Serbia the modern day Serb can't truly be known. Serbs have also on a number of different occasions lost a large amount of the male population, the two most known examples being WWI and the battle of Kosovo, making current Y-DNA a little less reliable when looking into the past for answers.
I think you are right there....
we should wait with theories until more data is present for different regions, as Balkan is in general genetically very diverse area.

btw. if we want to simplify current findings, we could claim that high frequency of haplogroup I makes Serbs related to Germanic people, while ancient old haplogroup R1a makes them forefathers of east European people.... thus, a natural bridge between east and west Europe....


At first we were confused. The East thought that we were West, while the West considered us to be East. Some of us misunderstood our place in the clash of currents, so they cried that we belong to neither side, and others that we belong exclusively to one side or the other. But I tell you, Ireneus, we are doomed by fate to be the East in the West and the West in the East, to acknowledge only heavenly Jerusalem beyond us, and here on earth—no one
—St. Sava to Ireneus, 13th century
http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sava_of_Serbia

Garrick
16-02-11, 22:42
you obviously have something against R1a being related to Serbs...

thing is there is strong correlation in spread of R1b with I1 and Ra1 with I2... this suggest possible scenario in which R and I people probably were mixed in very ancient history... with part of R-I mix surviving ice age in one refuge and part in another..... e.g. it seems that Pasthun Sarbans have mix of R1a and I* haplogroup... and among R1b- I1 people you have tribal names like Suebi and Swedes that are in my opinion derived from same tribal name as Serbs and Sarbans....


if however R1a and I were separate people, there are high chances that proto-Serbs were originally (thousands or tens thousands years ago) R1a...well, you say yourself that language Serbs speak is R1a language.... and there is saying in Serbia "speak Serbian so that whole world understands you" which probably reflects some past time emotion of being proud that own language was widely accepted by other people.... indo-european languages are closest to PIE in R1a areas from India to Poland...besides, Sorbs in east Germany are most R1a people in the world...word Sibir/Siberia likely origin of tribal name of people who lived there and R1a has two pockets where it is ancient old - among Serbs of Balkan and in Siberia.... that cannot be coincidence.... tribal name Serb was for sure related to R1a...



I think you are right there....
we should wait with theories until more data is present for different regions, as Balkan is in general genetically very diverse area.

btw. if we want to simplify current findings, we could claim that high frequency of haplogroup I makes Serbs related to Germanic people, while ancient old haplogroup R1a makes them forefathers of east European people.... thus, a natural bridge between east and west Europe....


http://orthodoxwiki.org/Sava_of_Serbia

How yes no
I really have nothing against R1a. I just do not see evidence that the Serbs can be, in the Y DNA sense, associated with R1a, except in relation to language and culture.

My guess is that over thousands of years of living together R1a and I, I people, Proto Serbs, received language and culture R1a people, of course, there are other scenarios.

Probably the key would be to explore Vincians which haplogroup they belonged.

It is theoretically possible that the Proto Serbs were both the I and R1a people but again only in terms of culture but not the origin.

how yes no 2
16-02-11, 22:50
How yes no
I really have nothing against R1a. I just do not see evidence that the Serbs can be, in the Y DNA sense, associated with R1a, except in relation to language and culture.

My guess is that over thousands of years of living together R1a and I, I people, Proto Serbs, received language and culture R1a people, of course, there are other scenarios.

Probably the key would be to explore Vincians which haplogroup they belonged.

It is theoretically possible that the Proto Serbs were both the I and R1a people but again only in terms of culture but not the origin.
I did somewhat edit my post before you posted this....
because I remembered that Sardinia is related to I2a1....

yes, I think mix of R and I happened long long time ago...
about language, I think there was PIE language spoken by R-I mix... however R-I mix was split by some event (perhaps ice age) on two separate parts... one part developed R1b-I1 and centum variant of PIE and other developed R1a and I2 and satem variant of PIE...

since R1a is ancient old in Balkan, R1a and I2 might have been isolated in Balkan refuge that was connected to Asia minor and Black sea refuge...

and I am not sure about R1b and I1, it could have been Iberian refuge because I1 is not too present outside of Europe... and because their language deviates more from PIE root which seems to be preserved much better in zone from India to Poland...so the refuge must have been far from there...thus not Black sea, nor Balkan... it had to be Iberia.... I2a1 might have been there as well... I2a1 settled mostly in north Africa (google Garamantes) and in islands like Sardinia... with ice melting R1b and I1 rushed to north and settled in Scandinavia and north Germany

and there was additional later arrival of more R1b to Europe that filled in south and central Europe...

how yes no 2
26-02-11, 13:37
Regarding ancient old R1a in Serb populated areas in Balkan, there are two possibilities:
1) ancient old pocket comes from stream-like spread that was stretching from south Siberia (22000 years old R1a) and was broken in two parts leaving two pockets: Balkan and south Siberia...
2) ancient old R1a pocket completely moved from some other place to Balkan in more recent times

as there is no ancient old R1a along the way from Siberia to Balkan, one could as Klyosov conclude it is case 1, but I would be more cautious there...

I think it may also be the case that it arrived with Serbs...
reason I say this is that Seneca speaks of Serians


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Now these Serians (also named Seres by some authors) are a tribe that lives both around Danube and in what is now north west China north of Himalayas, but this location can be seen as south Siberia or very close to it. This makes Serians good candidate for ancient old R1a pockets... I argue that besides ancient old R1a, they also carried haplogroup I...


Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

the arc of Serians from India to China is likely reflected today in Pashtun Sarbans... who by looking at their spread and spread of haplogroup I in Asia, besides R1a also carry some I haplogroup that makes them stand out from non-I haplogroup environment...


look at arc of Serians from China to India clearly visible in spread of haplogroup I..it really is arc...

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

now look carefully how Pasthun Sarbans match big part of this arc pretty well in Afghanistan and Pakistan

http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Pashtun_Confederacies_sm.jpg

Seres/Serians are known for silk production and are by Pliny the Elder written as Serve


that beyond the Emodian Mountains they look towards17 the Serve, whose acquaintance they had also made in the pursuits of commerce;
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plin.+Nat.+6.24&redirect=true

*Emodian mountains are Himalayas..and north of them are Seres who trade silk...

Seneca mentions their braveness to cross frozen Danube, to live unguarded from Sarmatians in Caspian mountains, and also the ones who control the Red sea

now, the ones in Caspian highlands may be Serboi tribe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians

interestingly, Serboi/Serbi lived there north of Caucasian Albania same like on Balkan Serbia is north of Albania... coincidence?

the Serians who control the Red sea I can only relate to Sabaeans/Sheba but I have no genetic indication that this is correct...they would be remainder of Sherdana sea peoples which left single toponym - Serbonian bog (it was lake in Egypt)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabaeans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sheba


The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_peoples



but note that Seres also dwell upon mount Athos in time of Aristotle...



Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

Now in time of Aristotle, we have Serians/Seres living upon (north of?) mount Athos..

location of Serians both around Danube, north of mount Athos, and in south Siberia suggests that ancient old pocket of R1a is related to Serians and relation of Serians to tribal names such as Serve/Sarbans/Serboi tells us that they are likely to be proto-Serbs... note that this is not only about ancient old R1a pocket moving around as haplogroup I also shows correlation with spread of Serians...

if we look for similar tribal names to Serians north of mount Athos they could have been known as Scordisci and Serdi...in my opinion Serdi and Scordisci is about same people but Celtic and Thracian version of tribal name because Serdi originally Celtic people enter Thrace from area of Celtic Scordisci and become thracanized...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/ThracianTribes.jpg/300px-ThracianTribes.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

expansion of Celtic Serdi perhaps also is the reason for I2a2 spread along west coasts of Asia minor (though this can as well be earlier spread)

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif


now regarding Scordisci and Serdi being two versions of same tribal name (because Celtic Serdi came to Thrace from area of Celtic Scordisci) Scordisci can be read Sordisci (same as Sclaveni are in fact Slaveni) and -isci ending is due to them being Celtic...which igives same "srd" root in trobal names Scordisci and Serdi

similarly Thracians are same tribal name as Rascians (see medieval Serbia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia)/Russians/Rasena (tyrhsenian /Etruscan)



In Attic Greek the Etruscans were known as Τυρρήνιοι (Tyrrhēnioi), earlier Tyrsenoi, from which the Romans derived the names Tyrrhēni (Etruscans), Tyrrhēnia (Etruria), and Mare Tyrrhēnum (Tyrrhenian Sea).[2] The Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, which was syncopated to Rasna or Raśna.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization

Etruscan areas show clear correlation with R1a spread in Italy

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Etruscan_civilization_map.png/493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

Thracian tribal name is about R1a people...
Scordisci might be Serians and mix of R1a and I haplogroup...

back to Serboi living north of Caucasian Albania,
Scordisci live north of Illyrians and are according to Strabo mixed with Illyrians and their allies...


I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter= 5&highlight=

Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

now this may explain why haplogroup E is so large in numbers in Serbs (also in Bosnian Serbs)...
Illyrian component would be E-V13, tribal name may origin from Serians which makes them mix of R1a and I*, and classifying them as Galatae would be about dominant I2 (some authors relate original Celts/Galatae to Germanic people (haplogroup I) with word German meaning original, some relate it to Gomer people who match I2a2 island in asia minor and its spread north of Black sea... also there are indicators that Veneti were I2a as well and that among Celts prominent tribe were Celtic Veneti from Britanny...see more about original Gomer/Cimmerians at http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=363659#post363659 and of original Celts issue on http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=363658#post363658 )

now, in Celtic areas of prehistoric Iberia we find Kaladuni (ancestors of Scotish people also known as Albanah in Gaelic) next to Seurbi, and in Illyria we find Chelidoni close to Serdi...we saw that Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians...so Celtic Iberia would be map of Balkan mix...coincidence?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365929#post365929

well, let's see whether Scordisci can be Seres who dwelt upon mount Athos...
on first view one expect Scordisci in north Serbia around Danube and in Pannonia....

but Serdi and Scordisci did also live much more to the south, e.g. we can find them in south Serbia on this map

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png



The Scordisci (Greek,"Σκορδίσκοι") were an ancient Celtic tribe centered in what would become the Roman Provinces of lower Pannonia, Moesia and present-day Serbia at the confluence of the Savus[1] (Sava), Dravus[2] (Drava) and Danube rivers. . Their tribal name may be connected to the name of the Scordus[3] mountain (Šar mountain) which was located between the regions of Illyria and Paionia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

Scordisci are the origin of name Sar mountain...Sar mountain is practically going along border of Macedonia and Albania...

http://www.euratlas.net/geography/europe/mountains/sar_mountains.jpg

If we look again to map above that is showing Illyrian/Hellenic/Thracian tribes and Serdi and Scordisci, It is reasonable to consider that on one side of Sar mountain lived Illyrians and on other Scordisci and perhaps to them related people Paioni (same as Pannoni and Scordisci are spread in Pannonia)...


They were historically notable from the beginning of the third century BC until the turn of the common era. At their zenith, their influence stretched over regions comprising parts of the present-day Austria, Croatia, Hungary, Serbia, Slovenia, Slovakia and Bosnia and Herzegovina
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

now, this zone of influence from Macedonia to Bohemia, explains Serbs coming from Bohemia to Balkan in 7th century...

Scordisci are Celtic people related to Boii, Serbs come in 7th century to Balkan from land of Boika (Bohemia named after Boii)

Scordisci might have retracted to north with Roman expansion and came back with weakening of Roman empire.... location of Scordisci is consistent with mention of Serians around Danube as Seneca the younger who mentions Serians around Danube lived (c. 1 BC – AD 65) and in that time frame Scordisci are still located around Danube

Scordisci at 1AD
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_94.jpg


After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

(translation of early medieval Russian document from year 1113th that narrates about history of Slavic people...read more on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle)

note that in time it is written Bulgaria and Hungary were neighboring states, which means this is about proto-Slavic people area around Danube from Black sea to Bohemia including parts of Serbia and Romania around Danube... this in antic people matches Thracians, Scordisci (or Serdi), and Pannoni....

note that also I2a2 shows spread along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia, and also spread along Carpathian mountains which is where it was pushed with advance of Roman empire...

Danube
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fa/Danubemap.jpg/800px-Danubemap.jpg

Carpathians
http://www.euratlas.net/geography/europe/mountains/carpathians.jpg

Both Danube and Carpathians are natural borders and obstacles to spread coming from south....
It is very logical that tribes south of Danube would (when systematically attacked from south) cross Danube in order to use Danube as natural border, so Danube was one line of defense from Roman spread and when this line was broken retreat is made to Carpathians and behind Carpathians, that is to Vistula region...

Cell
28-02-11, 10:45
Guys!

I am very sorry that your discussion time to time goes to politics. You better have to avoid this and be based only on facts. Both Garrick and Dejavu are right and wrong time to time, but I did not see that Garrick manipulated data.

I lived in Serbia for many years, speak and read this language, know the situation and customs, and I am very interested in the history of Balkan. I read a lot of academic literature about Balkan based on the ancient greek, latin and orient documents.
Besides, I contribited into the Russian forum on this topic for several years and I understand a lot about haplogroups and math and biology around this. Unfortunately, I am very limited in time. So I will put more information later (weeks?), but now I have to tell several things which I find important for your futher discussion.

- History and population of the Balkan Peninsula in the prehistoric and historic time was very complicated, a lot of layers. And a result, there definitely should be mostly European and in part Aasian Haplogroups, and any simple interpretation cannot be done.

- Slavs populated Balkan in 7th centure. They were definitely from different Slavic tribes, not only from White Serbs (Beli Serby). The contribution of the White Serbs in population of Balkan was not yet scientifically proven, but the last data on the subclades of the haplogroup I2a rather confirms this contribution. Another essential direction was from Carpathian, and probably, some others places.

- Definitely, Macedonians and Serbs are very close genetically and in language, and these nations respect one another very much, but it is wrong to use the same name "Serbs" for all Balkan Slavs. The Slav nations on Balkan were formed from different Slavic tribes.

- The idea of "scientist Aklyosov" about the very old R1a from Balkan is very disputable ( as a lot of his other ideas) and in any way understood in a wrong way here.
First, according his calculations, not ALL R1a from Balkan are "old”, but only a small part (<10%, one small branch on the tree). All the other R1a groups are younger and definitely came in 7th century.
Second, even this small branch could be wrong, because (1) the calculations were based on the old, not confirmed data on haplotypes, and (2) the subclades on R1a were not taken into consideration (different subclades should come into different branches, but they were put into one branch). In general, he likes to distribute his not confirmed ideas very wide, so you should not take each his word as the last true. Moreover, in general, the methods they use are very-very approximate, and, unfortunately, it does not look that they could be seriously improved.
- So, the most probably, we will know the true about the ancient DNA in Balkan only when it is measured in the remnants from the old graves, as it is being done now for other places as Germany, France and so on.
In addition, I looked quick some maps of this Forum with proposed distribution haplogroups and directions, and found that some of them are definitely not updated. For example, the haplogroups from Tarim Basin Mummieswere measured, and they are mostly R1a, while R1b is indicatedon the map.
If you have any question I can answer, I will be happy to do this.

iapetoc
01-03-11, 01:36
How Yes no
Garrick
Dejavu

There is enough R1a in Areas like Pontus Greek, Makedonia Gr and some doric colonies in South italy like lokri and sarendo

the R1a is an enigma,
if it came at medieval or was pre ancient in Balkans,
for me it is connected with Driopes nation

in fact my problem is the R1a is slavic? and I2a German? or opposite?
both can be explained very well

if I2a was slavic then was pread in areas from germany to russia
and invasion of R1a push it south, But people kept the old slavic language (R1a change language in low % of I2a today)

now in other hand I2a could be germanic and R1a brought slavic language and I2a change language

if serbs came from Caucasus is another point,
in fact we know they came from area around Hungaria Bohemia today
scordisci was a moving kingdom from areas of dardani to Carpatheia and Bardar to Hungary

A third solution is that a preancient R1a came persia to minor asia to Greece and pass north in preHistoric times
and thracian could be the mattress on which slavic language spread

Byzantines call the tribes therε Triballoi Τριβαλλοι

Sprinkles
01-03-11, 02:54
Guys!

I am very sorry that your discussion time to time goes to politics. You better have to avoid this and be based only on facts. Both Garrick and Dejavu are right and wrong time to time, but I did not see that Garrick manipulated data.

I lived in Serbia for many years, speak and read this language, know the situation and customs, and I am very interested in the history of Balkan. I read a lot of academic literature about Balkan based on the ancient greek, latin and orient documents.
Besides, I contribited into the Russian forum on this topic for several years and I understand a lot about haplogroups and math and biology around this. Unfortunately, I am very limited in time. So I will put more information later (weeks?), but now I have to tell several things which I find important for your futher discussion.

- History and population of the Balkan Peninsula in the prehistoric and historic time was very complicated, a lot of layers. And a result, there definitely should be mostly European and in part Aasian Haplogroups, and any simple interpretation cannot be done.

- Slavs populated Balkan in 7th centure. They were definitely from different Slavic tribes, not only from White Serbs (Beli Serby). The contribution of the White Serbs in population of Balkan was not yet scientifically proven, but the last data on the subclades of the haplogroup I2a rather confirms this contribution. Another essential direction was from Carpathian, and probably, some others places.

- Definitely, Macedonians and Serbs are very close genetically and in language, and these nations respect one another very much, but it is wrong to use the same name "Serbs" for all Balkan Slavs. The Slav nations on Balkan were formed from different Slavic tribes.

- The idea of "scientist Aklyosov" about the very old R1a from Balkan is very disputable ( as a lot of his other ideas) and in any way understood in a wrong way here.
First, according his calculations, not ALL R1a from Balkan are "old”, but only a small part (<10%, one small branch on the tree). All the other R1a groups are younger and definitely came in 7th century.
Second, even this small branch could be wrong, because (1) the calculations were based on the old, not confirmed data on haplotypes, and (2) the subclades on R1a were not taken into consideration (different subclades should come into different branches, but they were put into one branch). In general, he likes to distribute his not confirmed ideas very wide, so you should not take each his word as the last true. Moreover, in general, the methods they use are very-very approximate, and, unfortunately, it does not look that they could be seriously improved.
- So, the most probably, we will know the true about the ancient DNA in Balkan only when it is measured in the remnants from the old graves, as it is being done now for other places as Germany, France and so on.
In addition, I looked quick some maps of this Forum with proposed distribution haplogroups and directions, and found that some of them are definitely not updated. For example, the haplogroups from Tarim Basin Mummieswere measured, and they are mostly R1a, while R1b is indicatedon the map.
If you have any question I can answer, I will be happy to do this.
What are you talking about?

None of the areas that are high in I2a2 were invaded by the Slavs, it was probably a last refuge from slavs and are known hotspots of "Illyria" culture, which is found around the same time in places near Stolac, Hercegovina.

1) Geographic barriers make it difficult for Dinaric Balkans to become slavicised. Dinaric Balkans shows high levels of I2a2, almost no R1a.

2) Non Dinaric areas of the Balkans show high levels of R1a admixture, ie. Slavonia, Croatia.

3) A lack of R1a in dinaric areas of the balkans infers that very little slav admixture, since carriers were most definitely a mixture of haplogroups, one being R1a.

So, to claim I2a2 Slavic is idiotic. There's various mutations within I2a2 that now we differentiate between dinaric north, south and eastern european dinaric (russian).

We don't consider ourselves Slavs, and stay away from our people.

iapodos
01-03-11, 10:40
What are you talking about?
None of the areas that are high in I2a2 were invaded by the Slavs, it was probably a last refuge from slavs and are known hotspots of "Illyria" culture, which is found around the same time in places near Stolac, Hercegovina.
1) Geographic barriers make it difficult for Dinaric Balkans to become slavicised. Dinaric Balkans shows high levels of I2a2, almost no R1a.
2) Non Dinaric areas of the Balkans show high levels of R1a admixture, ie. Slavonia, Croatia.
3) A lack of R1a in dinaric areas of the balkans infers that very little slav admixture, since carriers were most definitely a mixture of haplogroups, one being R1a.
So, to claim I2a2 Slavic is idiotic. There's various mutations within I2a2 that now we differentiate between dinaric north, south and eastern european dinaric (russian).
We don't consider ourselves Slavs, and stay away from our people.

It is equally idiotic to claim that I2a2 were not Slavs, despite clear facts that they were not settled on Balkan since 6th century and migrations of Slavs.
It is really sad to see how people insist on bombastic hypothesis from previous years, as Illiromania is common disease among Croats, Serbs, Bosnian Muslims, Albanians etc. I will not repeat all well known fact which proves that I2a2 Din is clearly Slavic haplogroup, because lot of that was said on this forum millions times before...

Cell
01-03-11, 10:41
To Sprincles: below is your citation, please see my comments under the sentences with your points:

What are you talking about?

None of the areas that are high in I2a2 were invaded by the Slavs, it was probably a last refuge from slavs and are known hotspots of "Illyria" culture, which is found around the same time in places near Stolac, Hercegovina.

--- If you want to tell that Slavs during their invasion were not evenly distributed over Balkan, you are probably right. All pre-Slavic and Slavic invasions were more facilitated along the roads created yet by Romans. I could believed that Bosnia and Hercegovina were more aside then some other areas. However, according to the papers sited here,genetics is very similar, and Balkan people (besides Albanians and Greeks) speak very similar Slavic languages. The culture of entire Balkan is probably the mix of pre-Slavic ans Slavic Culture. As I know, in some area the pre-Slavic culture (archeological) stayed longer. The question if this culture was Illiric, Hellenic, Roman or whatever – needs a separate discussion. History of Balkan was very complicated. Illiric languages, for example, disappeared mu-u-uch before the Slavic invasion, replaced first by Hellinic languages, then by Roman languages. Actually, there was pretty developed Roman civilization. And later the area stayed under umbrella of Byzantine.


1) Geographic barriers make it difficult for Dinaric Balkans to become slavicised. Dinaric Balkans shows high levels of I2a2, almost no R1a.

--- Please see above. In addition, after Slavic invasion, the previous population sometimes moved in the area difficult for invasion, to the end of the peninsula and on islands. So, there could be some concentration of the pre-Slavic population. But this is mostly related to Greeks and Dalmatia.

2) Non Dinaric areas of the Balkans show high levels of R1a admixture, ie. Slavonia, Croatia. ---

----Yes, these areas were more developed by Romans, and roads were better. So they were more and faster populated by Slavs, as well. However, the Slavic language was very fast be spreaded over the whole Balkan, up the Greece.
However, the average difference in haplogroups is 15-20%, which definitely is not critical. Remember also about the Mito-haplogroups and about the possibility of secondary changes in genetics.

3) A lack of R1a in dinaric areas of the balkans infers that very little slav admixture, since carriers were most definitely a mixture of haplogroups, one being R1a.

So, to claim I2a2 Slavic is idiotic. There's various mutations within I2a2 that now we differentiate between dinaric north, south and eastern european dinaric (russian).

---Neither I believe that 50-60% of population (I2a) could be brought by a group which has this haplogroup is in much less proportion. Probably, I2a is mostly authentic. But there is a subclade which was identified in Slavs on the territory of Germany, and it could be suggested that this subclade came with Slavs (probably, White Slavs). However, interpretation of subclade (for example, age) is not always easy.


In addition, we can expect that multiple pre-Slavic invasions also left their genetic signatures on Balkan.



We don't consider ourselves Slavs, and stay away from our people.

--- I am sorry, I did not get your point here. Definitely, ethnically, you are that you feel you are. Historically and genetically you are that the objective data show. I believe that whatever ethnicity you identify as your ethnicity, it is OK until you allow the people around you the same choice.

In general, all Slavic people are very mixed genetically, like the most of other populations. Genetics cannot be the base for ethnic identification.


I feel that this direction of the discussion is getting beyond the topic of the Forum and I would like to suggest to discuss only genetic stuff and related problems.

Sprinkles
01-03-11, 16:37
--- If you want to tell that Slavs during their invasion were not evenly distributed over Balkan, you are probably right. All pre-Slavic and Slavic invasions were more facilitated along the roads created yet by Romans. I could believed that Bosnia and Hercegovina were more aside then some other areas. However, according to the papers sited here,genetics is very similar, and Balkan people (besides Albanians and Greeks) speak very similar Slavic languages. The culture of entire Balkan is probably the mix of pre-Slavic ans Slavic Culture. As I know, in some area the pre-Slavic culture (archeological) stayed longer. The question if this culture was Illiric, Hellenic, Roman or whatever – needs a separate discussion. History of Balkan was very complicated. Illiric languages, for example, disappeared mu-u-uch before the Slavic invasion, replaced first by Hellinic languages, then by Roman languages. Actually, there was pretty developed Roman civilization. And later the area stayed under umbrella of Byzantine.
The only similarity is the language. You can't make statements without supporting facts. Here we have a fact that Slavonia, Croatia has much higher frequency of R1a than Hercegovina. The frequency of I2a2 in Slavonia is much lower than Hercegovina. This is a fact. With this fact i justify my view that I2a2 is an indigenous haplogroup to the Balkans with high frequency being shown in areas pre-slavic invasion.

Roman roads are a not the cause of migrations. Roman roads are products of the ability to construct the road, which is a product of geography. Transversing the Dinaric Alps was definitely not something that any invading armies efficient at, which is why in areas of the Alps there is little gene flow from those nations. This is true whether the nation was Roman (as there is a very small roman footprint in any areas of Hercegovina) - now you can use your analogy that since, of course, we share the same religion (you language) that we share the same culture, which is an error of judgment, at best. We continue to see the same lack of footprint with Slavs in Hercegovina, Turks in Hercegovina and other invading nations. You can claim that we're not Croats, but to label the Balkans as Slavic is a idea that is fit for those who wish to claim something exists as the word Slav. If you wish to label yourself Slav, do so - i have no objection. But please show evidence that I2a2 is Slav, which is your claim, and not indigenous to the Balkans, which is my claim. Since none exists, this is where you're wrong.



[I]--- Please see above. In addition, after Slavic invasion, the previous population sometimes moved in the area difficult for invasion, to the end of the peninsula and on islands. So, there could be some concentration of the pre-Slavic population. But this is mostly related to Greeks and Dalmatia.
You didn't prove anything.



[I]----Yes, these areas were more developed by Romans, and roads were better. So they were more and faster populated by Slavs, as well. However, the Slavic language was very fast be spreaded over the whole Balkan, up the Greece.
Language is irrelevant when we have the ability to understand population flows through genes. If you're trying to attribute language to population flows, you may want to consider a different avenue. The same can be said for romanization of Croatia with Catholicism. Show me a genetic footprint of roman catholicism.




--- I am sorry, I did not get your point here. Definitely, ethnically, you are that you feel you are. Historically and genetically you are that the objective data show. I believe that whatever ethnicity you identify as your ethnicity, it is OK until you allow the people around you the same choice.

In general, all Slavic people are very mixed genetically, like the most of other populations. Genetics cannot be the base for ethnic identification.

LOL, you're retarded. Stay in Russia you idiot.

Cell
01-03-11, 23:25
Not for Sprinkles who cannot develop discussion in the accepted way, I would like to put some short summarized information about the settlement of the Balkans, which could help for the interpretation of the facts, related to haplogroups. If something is not the facts taken from academic editions, it is indicated as my opinion. I'd like to discuss only scientifically accepted facts or scientifically based suggestions under internationally accepted rules of equity and tolerance.

--- The oldest known tribes in the Balkans are Dacians, Tracians, Albanians and Illyrians. However, it is not clear are they autochthonous or they were newcomers at that period of time. The point is that their languages were Indo-European (IE), and to get these languages (about 4000 years ago), they had to meet IE people. They could meet them somewhere else and populate the Balkans after this, or they could meet them in the Balkan. The latter has any no archeological evidence. Do they brought I2a groups to the Balkans or they met it here and assimilated? For me, the idea that some tribes from other place (Anatolia?) invaded the Balkans and Indo-Europeanized the autochthonous population seems the most adequate. The languages disappeared yet during the time of Roman Empire.
--- 2500 years ago - Celtic Invasion. Celts reached the Greece and even Anatolia, but mostly they stayed in the northern, west-northern and eastern parts of the Balkans. They were first who built the City of Belgrade. Celts were one of the founders of the modern country Romania. They probably had mostly R1b haplogroup.
--- 4th century AC - Gothic invasion. They had large latifundia there and stayed for a long time. In some places, service in Gothic languages in churches was recorded as late as in 9th century. The Goths could be enriched in R1a groups by the time of invasion, as they previously lived very close to Slavs at the territories of the modern Ukraine and Russia.
--- Gepids. They were also German people. They also could have some R1a haplogroups, as Slavs were their neighbors .
These two Germanic groups could be actually responsible for that subclade of I2a, which was found at the territory of Germany and was ascribes to White Serbs.
---5th century - Raids of Huns. Huns are of unknown origin; Chinese, Turkish and Iranian origin was suggested. Who knows which haplogroups they brought?
--- 5-7th Centuries - Avars raids. Again the origin is unknown, probably of mixed origins.
The last two groups were characterized by extreme brutality, especially Avars. Both of them disappeared without leaving defined ethnic groups after them, but they could leave their haplogroups just because they raped Slavic and Balkan women.
--- Here we are coming closely to Slavs, since it is believed that Avars brought Slavs with them. It looks that originally Avars forced some Slavic tribes which were on their way from the East to go with them, to populate Pannonia with its fertile lands and to supply Avars with agricultural products. Slavs also suffered a lot from Avar’s brutality. It looks that in the beginning , Slavs were not skilled in war, but later they got this experience and contributed to Avar’s raids. Later, they went to this practice themselves. Surprisingly, they were very skilled seafarer s and invaded into Greek areas from the sea.
Before final colonization of the Balkans, they stayed in Pannonia for 1-1.5 century (#-5 generations). During this time, they could be enriched with I2a haplogroup, because they captivated Balkan people during their raids, the whole families, first forced them to work for them, but later allowed them to live free between them. Slavicization of the Balkans is the fact commonly accepted by the historic science.


8 centuries after, a big part of the Balkans has got under the Ottoman Empire rule. This could bring some haplogroups from Turkey into Slav Balkan population. In most parts of Ottoman Europe, the Christian nobility was removed and replaced by a foreign mostly Turkish sometimes Albanian). They had so called “Right of the first night” over Slav population. This genetic influence was less in Bosnia and Hercegovina, because there larger numberof people converted to Islam, which protected them from such type of treatment.

A lot of things about that could be read in Wiki. I am not allowed to put here addresses.

So, we can see that the history of the Balkans can explain the variety of haplogroups found there. I believe that based on the modern haplogroups, no final conclusion may be done about the prehistorical haplogroups in this region (actually, not in Europe, in general). If you are interested in more details please let me know.



It is also a mistake to relate one haplogroup to one nation, whichever this haplogroup is. It could be that in prehistoric time, the tribes had less diversity in haplogroups. But even measurement in 2-5 years old groves in Europe and Asia already show some admixture. Especially now, after all this migrations, all the nations have mixed haplogroups, which reflects their history.

iapodos
02-03-11, 00:09
The oldest known tribes in the Balkans are Dacians, Tracians, Albanians and Illyrians.
Albanians are not ancient anthic tribe and if you try to connect them with modern Albanians it is stupidity per se.


However, it is not clear are they autochthonous or they were newcomers at that period of time. The point is that their languages were Indo-European (IE), and to get these languages (about 4000 years ago), they had to meet IE people. They could meet them somewhere else and populate the Balkans after this, or they could meet them in the Balkan. The latter has any no archeological evidence. Do they brought I2a groups to the Balkans or they met it here and assimilated? For me, the idea that some tribes from other place (Anatolia?) invaded the Balkans and Indo-Europeanized the autochthonous population seems the most adequate. The languages disappeared yet during the time of Roman Empire.
Before any Indoeuropeans appeared in Balkan there was plenty of E1b, J2, G2a and other neolithic haplogroups there since the I haplogroup members migrated in northeastern direction in early neolithic. So, if the Illyrians and Thracians were Indoeuropeans, they could come on Balkan during Indoeuropean expansion in Bronze age, but in that time there was no I haplogroup on Balkan.


2500 years ago - Celtic Invasion. Celts reached the Greece and even Anatolia, but mostly they stayed in the northern, west-northern and eastern parts of the Balkans. They were first who built the City of Belgrade. Celts were one of the founders of the modern country Romania. They probably had mostly R1b haplogroup.
Honestly, I don't see any connection between Celts, modern Romania and R1b haplogroup as you suggested.


4th century AC - Gothic invasion. They had large latifundia there and stayed for a long time. In some places, service in Gothic languages in churches was recorded as late as in 9th century. The Goths could be enriched in R1a groups by the time of invasion, as they previously lived very close to Slavs at the territories of the modern Ukraine and Russia.
Goths were in Dalmatia and Balkan only for 200 years and wasn't so numerous to leave some significant genetic trace. Unexpected higher frequency of I1 haplogroup in Balkan maybe is due to them.


These two Germanic groups could be actually responsible for that subclade of I2a, which was found at the territory of Germany and was ascribes to White Serbs.
Nobody till now can say where exactly was White Serbia, but wherever it was it has nothing in common with Gothic migrations.


The last two groups were characterized by extreme brutality, especially Avars. Both of them disappeared without leaving defined ethnic groups after them, but they could leave their haplogroups just because they raped Slavic and Balkan women.
Slavs had some problems with Avars, but this raping episode is something what I heard for first time. Was it on CNN?


Here we are coming closely to Slavs, since it is believed that Avars brought Slavs with them. It looks that originally Avars forced some Slavic tribes which were on their way from the East to go with them, to populate Pannonia with its fertile lands and to supply Avars with agricultural products. Slavs also suffered a lot from Avar’s brutality. It looks that in the beginning , Slavs were not skilled in war, but later they got this experience and contributed to Avar’s raids. Later, they went to this practice themselves. Surprisingly, they were very skilled seafarer s and invaded into Greek areas from the sea.
Very naive oversight of history I must say. Byzantine historians brings us totally different states.


Before final colonization of the Balkans, they stayed in Pannonia for 1-1.5 century (#-5 generations). During this time, they could be enriched with I2a haplogroup, because they captivated Balkan people during their raids, the whole families, first forced them to work for them, but later allowed them to live free between them. Slavicization of the Balkans is the fact commonly accepted by the historic science.
So the Panonia was source, unexploited well of I2a, everybody who passes through Panonia will catch some I2a. Raping again?


8 centuries after, a big part of the Balkans has got under the Ottoman Empire rule. This could bring some haplogroups from Turkey into Slav Balkan population. In most parts of Ottoman Europe, the Christian nobility was removed and replaced by a foreign mostly Turkish sometimes Albanian). They had so called “Right of the first night” over Slav population. This genetic influence was less in Bosnia and Hercegovina, because there larger numberof people converted to Islam, which protected them from such type of treatment.
Right of the first night is one of urban legends of Otoman period, not historical fact.


So, we can see that the history of the Balkans can explain the variety of haplogroups found there. I believe that based on the modern haplogroups, no final conclusion may be done about the prehistorical haplogroups in this region (actually, not in Europe, in general). If you are interested in more details please let me know.
Your knowledge of Balkan history is more than poor and light-minded.
Honestly I was expected more after such bombastic announcement of yours.

iapetoc
02-03-11, 04:28
Cell have you ever wonder that R1a could be Germanic,?
Sprinkles have you ever thought that I2a could be slavic?

R1a pass from minor asia to Greece and then central Europe and then To North Baltic, and from there they invade Russia volga river

just a scenario

Ρωςς Ross people are considered Vikings from baltic that invade Volga river,

in fact I believe that R1a has nothing to do with slavic,
and Clear slavic is I2,

in fact even if R1a came from north baltic they simply took I2 language, and make I2 to move back and south
a small prove of That is Bulgaria and Serbia
in east Bulgaria (varna) Bulgarian language was spoken (slavic) but no invasion of slavic people, why?
Serbia has a small difference in language that connects them with bohemia and more east to ucraine lithuania, but the differences with Bulgarian are almost very low to zero,
croatia slovenia although more west to central Europe and italy (german and roman speaking) still conected with Bulgarian language
why? probably the slavic language was the I2 language, and R1a (Viking) invaders accepted the slavic language
I keep my precautions to the above,
but I am mention it just to make some people think and again to put the problem

just a possible scenario
Hypothesis <->Thracian = proto Slavic

on the other hand if i2a is Germanic (no slavic speaking before 500AD) then slavic invasion in south slavic areas with R1a and a 15% Ydna change the language of people from slovenia to bulgaria wow,
and 50% Ydna in some areas in Germany and did not change language to them?


hmmmmm

the other possible scenario
Hypothesis <->Thracian = Germanic relative language


a 4rth scenario which combines R1a with I2a ...
I don't know,
simply i just want someones to think.

Elias2
02-03-11, 16:18
Maybe the south slavic people all speak slavic because thats the language they were christianized in? similar to how middle eastern people speak arabic because that's what islamized them?

iapetoc
04-03-11, 02:46
Ellias seems you find a good point

Runic
04-03-11, 04:23
Serbs are majority Paleo-Balkan in genetic substratum with some Slavic. There are also minor contributions from Germanics (Goths) and Celts (Scordisci).

Garrick
05-03-11, 00:03
Serbs are majority Paleo-Balkan in genetic substratum with some Slavic. There are also minor contributions from Germanics (Goths) and Celts (Scordisci).

Yes, I talk all the time.

Serbs are not Slavs in origin, the word Serb is not Slavic, otherwise there are indications that the Serbs were mentioned in ancient Greek texts, I will post it once.

Second is the cultural influence and yet someone should reveal when and how the Serbs received Slavic language, the key thing is to find old I language.

iapetoc
05-03-11, 03:20
Yes, I talk all the time.

Serbs are not Slavs in origin, the word Serb is not Slavic, otherwise there are indications that the Serbs were mentioned in ancient Greek texts, I will post it once.

Second is the cultural influence and yet someone should reveal when and how the Serbs received Slavic language, the key thing is to find old I language.


so that makes us to conclude that I2 people are not the majoruity of Slavic and R1a is the Slavic majority Y DNA,

In that case could I2 be a germanic speaking, ?????

means Thracians were simmilar to germanic? or another language

Shetop
05-03-11, 16:16
so that makes us to conclude that I2 people are not the majoruity of Slavic and R1a is the Slavic majority Y DNA,

In that case could I2 be a germanic speaking, ?????

means Thracians were simmilar to germanic? or another language

Either it is Germanic or Finno-Ugric :cool-v:

how yes no 2
05-03-11, 23:58
Either it is Germanic or Finno-Ugric :cool-v:

Finno-Ugric is not bad proposal as Serbs do have haplogroup N admixture while their other neighbours (including other south Slavs) do not....

but I think I2a2 was Celtic

according to Byzantine emperor, Serbs come from land of Boiki where their neighbour is Francia and white Croatia... he also states that Serbs lived in land of Boiki from always?? there they were also called "white"?... he states Croats were also called "white"

now, Vindelici/Veneti/Venedi have a a name that in Celtic language means white... we know that Jordanes says that early Slavs are from populous race of Veneti... also at least one of Veneti tribes is known to play prominent role in Celtic world... Celtic Veneti lived in Britanny...


name Boiki is derived from Celtic tribal name Boii... Boii is origin of names Bohemia and Bavaria marking location where Boii lived from always till they disappeared from history...

spread of Celtic Boii derived tribes to south might have gone under name of Celtic Scordisci... position of Scordisci is changing along Danube and related rivers from Slovakia till Greece... I2a2 shows spread along Danube...

Serdi are Celts who became Thracians
they come to Thrace from area of Scordisci, and it is almost obvious that Scordisci and Serdi are same tribal name just Celtic and Thracian version...

it is known that Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians (Strabo)
also Illyrians probably were close relation to Celtic people as:


According to the Illyrian Wars of Appian, Illyrius was the son of the Cyclops Polyphemus and his wife Galatea with siblings Celtus and Galas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

Serdi were neighbours to Illyrian Chelidoni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

in pre-Celtic part of prehistoric Iberia Seurbi live next to Caladuni
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Iberia_300BC.svg

thus, it is worth considering that tribal names Seurbi = Serdi and Chelidoni = Caladuni (and according to Scotish myth of origin = Kaledoni)

with spread of Roman empire many tribes moved to north....
Russian primary chronicle records early Slavs as living in around Danube in what was in year 1113 (when chronicle was written down) Hungary and Bulgaria (which includes areas around Danube in Serbia and Romania of today)... but moved north when Roman empire conquered those areas...

Rascian and Russian are same troibal name as Thracian
as we can see in Etruscans who are called Tyhrsenians by Greeks while they call themselves Rasena

tribal name Tyhrsenian/Rasena that is Thracian/Rascia/Russian corresponds to R1a spread...

what confuses me is Slavic language... where did it come from?
Etruscans are likely R1a and speak non-IE... thus R1a in Asia minor didnot speak IE

Thracians speak IE

also, why did Celtic languages disappear almost completely in continental Europe?

Shetop
06-03-11, 00:16
I was ironic.
I think how yes no knows what I think. I see nothing that could change my mind - I2a2a-Dinaric was not in Balkans before 6th century.


According to Ken Nordtvedt I2a2a, called by him Dinaric, arose 2500 years ago in Eastern Europe. Around 300 CE it has split into two varieties - N (northern) - older and S (southern) - younger.[30] In 2010 Nordtvedt suppoused that I2a2a-Dinaric is just too young to not have been a result of a sudden expansion on the Balkans. He has presumed it was the Slavic expansion from the area north-east of the Carpathians since 500 CE.
South Slavs - Genetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs#Genetics)

how yes no 2
06-03-11, 00:25
I was ironic.
I think how yes no knows what I think. I see nothing that could change my mind - I2a2a-Dinaric was not in Balkans before 6th century.
South Slavs - Genetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs#Genetics)

In my opinion it is incorrect to say that I2a2 came to Balkan with Slavs, and correct is that I2a2 returned to Balkan with Slavs...

it was pushed north with spread of Roman empire, and it returned back when Roman empire was collapsing....

Thracian language was closest to Baltic languages....and Slavic language was probably its derivative while at least part of I2a2 was perhaps Celtic speaking.... if this is the case question is when and why did I2a2 switch to Thracian derived languages...

Shetop
06-03-11, 00:43
Thracian language was closest to Baltic languages....

That is a projection of communist Bulgarian scientist Ivan Duridanov who had a goal to connect pre and post migration period Bulgarian population.

Garrick
06-03-11, 01:37
I was ironic.
I think how yes no knows what I think. I see nothing that could change my mind - I2a2a-Dinaric was not in Balkans before 6th century.


South Slavs - Genetics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs#Genetics)


What happened with I bearers in the Balkans, they all disappeared and suddenly I haplogroup appeared with the Slavs???

It is absolutely impossible that R1a clan originated in Central Asia, and I clan originated in Anatolia and came to the Balkans 25,000 years ago, are the same population!!!

These are just attempts to make some kind of clasp I bearers with the Slavs, but it is illogical.

But Serbs are not Slavs and there is evidence.

I have already given a lot of sources where Tribals = Serbs and Tribals were the Thracian tribe, and I think the participants is making a mistake that the Thracians were R1a, it is likely that the Thracians were I carriers.

Certainly, should do further research.

And it can be find the link: Lydia (Asia Minor), Thrace, Rascia (the Serbs), Rasena (Etruscans).

Shetop
06-03-11, 01:49
Garrick you are fighting a battle on a wrong front.

how yes no 2
06-03-11, 02:43
What happened with I bearers in the Balkans, they all disappeared and suddenly I haplogroup appeared with the Slavs???

new wave of I merged with older waves of I....


It is absolutely impossible that R1a clan originated in Central Asia, and I clan originated in Anatolia and came to the Balkans 25,000 years ago, are the same population!!!

25 000 years ago is long long time ago...


These are just attempts to make some kind of clasp I bearers with the Slavs, but it is illogical.

why is it illogical?
nations of today are of mixed origin...
why should this not be the case for tribal groups from 1500 years ago?



But Serbs are not Slavs and there is evidence.
what evidence?


I have already given a lot of sources where Tribals = Serbs and Tribals were the Thracian tribe, and I think the participants is making a mistake that the Thracians were R1a, it is likely that the Thracians were I carriers.
it is not known what were haplogroups of Thracians...
we can only guess...



And it can be find the link: Lydia (Asia Minor), Thrace, Rascia (the Serbs), Rasena (Etruscans).
Russia/Russians?

How do you explain that there is no I2a2 at all in Etruscan/Rasena lands, but there is R1a that exactly matches their spread?

iapetoc
06-03-11, 02:51
No Shetop
I agree with Garrick

In south Italy we have a quite big R1a % in area sarendino (ex Greek colony) and not in areas near,
Meaning that part of R1a is ancient that past from anatolia not from north,
offcourse that R1a coulb be Normands if Normands have enough R1a, but it is in Greek population,
about paleolithic I
lets see
R1b from west celtic,
R1b from east anatolian
J2 is greek probably 5000 Bc or before but not in central balkans
E-v13 came at 2000 Bc (dienekes article) to peloponese and expand in mountain areas north slowly
so the only remain is I2,
the change that I2 enter at 500 Bc is not so correct with me,
someone should live before
exept if they were J2 people and were pushed south by I2
or R1b anatolian,
R1a is enough to be ancient,
but not to be predominant,
an analyst can go back time with mutation time 30 per generecation and find how old is I2 in Balkans,

I agree with Garrick that I2 is the old Y Dna,
only R1b anatolian could be older than I2 in balkans,
altough I am maybe wrong, but I dont think so


I still believe that Thracians were not R1a,
not the second nation after India,
I2 coulb be second nation (thracians)
(Thracians are the 2nd most big nation (population)

But there was another R1a branch that came from Persia to Greece and Balkans and Italy
If R1a is far ancient in Greece,
or slavs manage to reach and settle in Greek colonies of Magna Grecia
if someone knows the data well search in area Lokri and Sarendo in south italy,
one has R1a one Not,

about Etruscans
also Greek Τυρρενιιοι or Ετρουριοι -> means tower people en turris = in towers
from Turris also Trojer
see greek cities Tyris (Τυρις-νθος) Troy
the Etrurians were Pelasgic
Pelasgic is third branch of GrecoAryan
Aryan split to Armenian Persian and Pelasgic-Phoenician
Pelasgic split to Aegean(Greek) Etrurian(Latio) Thracian
Pelasgic also split to Phoenisian
aegean pelasgic and phoenician invade to Illyria (ancient Illyrian)
Anatolian languages have influence of Pelasgic and Hettit
Thracian are consider the middle
In Thracian we find Hettit Persian and Pelasgic, means that was aryan language
A % of words that past to other languages comes from romanization
in around Etruria we have near enough J2 and G minor asian

many times I said the the Greco-Aryan is better to expalin ancient civilizations
than the IE approcah,
the obsidian valley, the Cappadokia(and armenia) or the Syria shoyld be first aryan speaking area

The I2a people should be in Here at pelasgic times and balkans
if Slavic language is adopted to I2a people then Thracian could be Proto-germanic or proto-Goth
the I2a in Spain and N africa follows the raid and movement of Visigoths and Vandals
Gothic Languge? is relative germanic?


Either it is Germanic or Finno-Ugric :cool-v:
Although it seems Funny for you

Can you explain the explain the Gaete-Thracians, Goeth-Thracians
as also the ancient Greek pelasgic word Caieta (Gaete people who live in caves, Tyrrageti people live in towers, troglodytae live in trogle, straw pole houses, Thyssagatae bush culture Thyssan Greek bush, hole in forest 'Tzuma' with bushes, no trees in area only bushes, Massagatae, the mass μαζα the central of getae)
This gaete tribes are very ancient as Tomyris Queen
besides the connection Dachoi (Greek) with Persian Dage(stan) Scaugdae Thracians with persian Sogdiane
maybe Jordanes Getica is mistaken in the begin, and Goth people are Thracian and Scythian speaking
probably near Germanic if Goth is consider relative of Germanic language


Shetop

I don't know about celtic but in ancient Greek there is enough connection with Germanic as PIE
they are consider non Pelasgic, but exist from Hommers time,
Meaning that Thracian could be a far beyond language relative to germanic

If Gaete are R1a (although I don't believe it) then i2a is Illyrian (Illyricum) or South thracian,
If Gaete are I2a as the rest thracians in Balkans then you have a good answer to Thracian being a relative Germanic language, or even pre-Germanic
Zalmoxis o Kronos (the god that Greeks fight to send away)

Garrick
06-03-11, 03:14
How do you explain that there is no I2a2 at all in Etruscan/Rasena lands, but there is R1a that exactly matches their spread?

The Romans destroyed the Etruscans.

"Slowly, over the course of the next century, the Etruscan cities would be added to the Roman fold one by one. In various forms over this time, they would side with various opponents of the Romans in desperate attempts to break their hold on power in central Italy. The obscurity of the Etruscan people, however, in the perspective of regional power, was inevitable by this point. Their lack of unity and cooperation, despite joining various enemies of Rome in the waning years of Italian independence, led directly to their own demise. By 273 BC, Etruria and the Etruscans would be completely within the domain of Rome. "

www.unrv.com/empire/veii-and-the-etruscans.php (http://www.unrv.com/empire/veii-and-the-etruscans.php)

The question is how many does the Etruscans survived.

R1a of whom you speak may be very different populations and has nothing to do with the Etruscans.

Shetop
06-03-11, 11:12
I agree with Garrick that I2 is the old Y Dna

Since it looks important to many here, I will say it - it is indeed probable that some I2 branches entered Europe (including Balkans) before E-V13. We can see it by different I2* subclades found in Europe, with highest frequency in Crete (5-6%). There is also I2a* in Alpine regions which appears to be very old, and a couple of other older I2 branches, all found in Europe.

But now look at this, we have I2a2a-Disles only found in British Islands and I2a2a-Dinaric is on opposite side of Europe! What I want to say is that each of those branches from above had their own history. And there are even more I2a1 with its own 6 subbranches, than there is I2a2b-Isles, I2b1, I2b2 and others are also possible.

In order to understand what happened you have to analyse every I2 branch separately, and if someone just says that whole I2 are these or those people I think he will never find the truth.

And at the end, whatever happened with I2 and E-V13, discussion about which Y-DNA has more rights is completely out of the line. No people will live better because genetic research shows this or that.

how yes no 2
06-03-11, 15:14
The Romans destroyed the Etruscans.
R1a of whom you speak may be very different populations and has nothing to do with the Etruscans.[/QUOTE]
destroyed is not equal killed them all...

what other populations?
Romans? why is there no R1a that matches their initial spread?
Celtic Boii? Why does spread not match their location?
Germanic people? perhaps.. I need to look more in locations of Germanic people in Italy

what are the odds for random spreads to match exact curves as R1a in Italy and Etruscans?
what are the chances that the area in Asia minor from which Etruscans moved to Europe shows hole in R1a spread there?

now find me such indications that will relate Romans or Celts with R1a? I see none...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Etruscan_civilization_map.png/493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

how yes no 2
06-03-11, 15:39
But now look at this, we have I2a2a-Disles only found in British Islands and I2a2a-Dinaric is on opposite side of Europe! What I want to say is that each of those branches from above had their own history. And there are even more I2a1 with its own 6 subbranches, than there is I2a2b-Isles, I2b1, I2b2 and others are also possible.
at some point in history (maybe few thousands or maybe tens of thousand years ago) roots of those branches belonged to same tribe... point is that YDNA branches spread with people....and location of different subbranches allows us to guess possible movements of their ancestors...

in this case if there is I2a2-Isles in UK and I2a2-Dinaric in east Europe and I2a1 in south Europe, and I2a* in two lines from Italy to Denmark and from Black sea to Baltic, it is not reeasonable to assume that I2a2-Dinaric entered Europe in 5th or 6th century.... location of all related branches doesnot indicate that such a scenario is probable...


In order to understand what happened you have to analyse every I2 branch separately, and if someone just says that whole I2 are these or those people I think he will never find the truth.
no, you need to analyse branches separately but also to look at them together... as I2a2 didnot origin from R1a or O but from I2a*, and this one from I2*... and this one from I*...


And at the end, whatever happened with I2 and E-V13, discussion about which Y-DNA has more rights is completely out of the line. No people will live better because genetic research shows this or that.
I perfectly agree about this...
but there are too many people who do not see it this way and use snapshots in history to prove their own right on land... sometimes illusion of being more autochthonous somewhere is deliberatelly created by introducing artificial nation names (e.g. Bosniacs, Kosovars...). So, if issue who is more autochthonous is really irrelevant, how come some people are renamed just to create such illusions...

Garrick
06-03-11, 16:46
at some point in history (maybe few thousands or maybe tens of thousand years ago) roots of those branches belonged to same tribe... point is that YDNA branches spread with people....and location of different subbranches allows us to guess possible movements of their ancestors...

in this case if there is I2a2-Isles in UK and I2a2-Dinaric in east Europe and I2a1 in south Europe, and I2a* in two lines from Italy to Denmark and from Black sea to Baltic, it is not reeasonable to assume that I2a2-Dinaric entered Europe in 5th or 6th century.... location of all related branches doesnot indicate that such a scenario is probable...


no, you need to analyse branches separately but also to look at them together... as I2a2 didnot origin from R1a or O but from I2a*, and this one from I2*... and this one from I*...




how yes no
It is clearly to you about movements and what could be preceded.

So clear you is my logic, and I gave some sources.

There are many sources say that the name Serb is much older than the name the Slav.

Many of researchers, the Western or Slavic, still have a problem when trying to connect to the Serbs and Slavs and make different designs (and some say that the Serbs are ancestors of all the Slavs, but it cannot be acceptable).

But ok, enter the details and effort discovering flows and relationships require different multidisciplinary researchs, for now it is lack of the knowledge and a broader picture and the authors wander.

Sprinkles
06-03-11, 18:16
Slovakia, Slovenia, Slavonia - are these all not R1a? And it follows that they're slavs.

Hercegovina, Bosna, Dalmaticija - I2a2 - not slavs.

I2a2 not indigenous to Balkans, where is the proof? This is stupid talk, without proof. There's no R1a admixture in the most heavily populated I2a2 areas. If you can explain that, tell me. Otherwise with this remaining fact, i have no reason to accept the hypothesis. There is no evidence for it. Why is there 80% I2a2 and almost no R1a in Hercegovina? Did the slavs not bring R1a with them? Or did the slavs never arrive in Hercegovina due to geographic constraints?

Answer please. Slavs show a high portion of R1a and it is possible that Slavs(r1a) never made it south to Dalmaticija, Bosna or surrounding areas just like Ghenghis Khan never made it past the Fortress of Klis.

how yes no 2
06-03-11, 19:08
Slovakia, Slovenia, Slavonia - are these all not R1a? And it follows that they're slavs.
Hercegovina, Bosna, Dalmaticija - I2a2 - not slavs.
I2a2 not indigenous to Balkans, where is the proof? This is stupid talk, without proof. There's no R1a admixture in the most heavily populated I2a2 areas. If you can explain that, tell me. Otherwise with this remaining fact, i have no reason to accept the hypothesis. There is no evidence for it. Why is there 80% I2a2 and almost no R1a in Hercegovina? Did the slavs not bring R1a with them? Or did the slavs never arrive in Hercegovina due to geographic constraints?
Answer please. Slavs show a high portion of R1a and it is possible that Slavs(r1a) never made it south to Dalmaticija, Bosna or surrounding areas just like Ghenghis Khan never made it past the Fortress of Klis.

Serbs originally settled in Herzegovina, old Herzegovina (which is now in Montenegro) and Raska oblast (southwest part of Serbia that neighbours Hercegovina)... not in Slavonia, Slovakia, Slovenia....which are R1a areas..

I think same or similar holds for Croats who from what I know (not sure) originally settled in Dalmatia (which also may included part of what is today Herzegovina)

This leaves possibility that Serbs and Croats were dominantly I2a2, while other Slavic people were dominantly R1a. I2a2 I link to Veneti related people (which includes Vindelici, but also Liburnians)

Jordanes speak of Slaves as

Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35)
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

Due to correlation between Slovenia, Slavonia, Slovakia with R1a, Sclaveni as one of proto-Slavic tribes could have been R1a...but later term Slavic people is used also for tribes that are not Sclaveni in particular, but speak Slavic languages...

as for Serbs and Croats Constantine Porphyrogenitus says they were called 'white' in their previous homeland...which is identical to Celtic meaning of tribal names Vindelici/Venedi/(Veneti?)....

Neander
06-03-11, 19:34
Vindelici/Venedi/(Veneti?)....
Is there any proof that you link Illyrian VENETI, to Slavic WENDI ???

how yes no 2
06-03-11, 19:43
1) Serbs come from land of Boiki that neighbours Frankia and white Croatia where they also originally dwellt
http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&ots=7ud7kwEY7r&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

2) Serbs and Croats were there called 'white'
http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&ots=7ud7kwEY7r&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

3) Vindelici means 'white' in Celtic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici

4) Boiki, Bavaria, Bohemia - all derived from Boii tribal name, as Boii lived there from always
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria

5) Sorviodurum was town in Bavaria part of Rhaetia on border with Bohemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing

close to it in Bohemia are two places with name Srby
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Doma%C5%BElice_District)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plze%C5%88-South_District)


6) early Slavs are of Veneti race
Jordanes
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

7) Vindelici probably Venetic people related to Liburnians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici


8) Chief tribe of Vindelici is Licates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeum_Alpium

9) word "Licos", meaning "rock" or "slab". Cognates in modern Celtic languages are Leac (Irish), Llech (Welsh) and Lec'h (Breton)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_regiments_of_the_Roman_army

10) Lika is big area in Croatia settled by both Serbs and Croats
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika

11) eponymous ancestor of Poles is Lech
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech,_Czech_and_Rus



12)leader of Cimbri is Boiorix (ruler of Boii)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

13) leader of Licyans is Sarpedon (ruler of Sarpes?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia



14) national animal that represents Serbs is wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia

15) Lycia is related to wolves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto

16) Veneti tribal name might origin from word wolf
as Pictish tribe "Venicones" = wolves / hunting dogs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venicones


17 a) Venicones are paired with Kaledoni,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venicones

and legend of origin of Scotish people talks of arrival from Iberia and to Iberia via ships from Scythia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Arbroath
http://www.constitution.org/scot/arbroath.htm

17 b) In Iberia tribe Caladuni is next to tribe Seurbi
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

17 c) In south Balkan tribe Chelidoni close to tribe Serdi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png


18) Celtic Serdi enter Thrace from area of Celtic Scordisci
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdihttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

19) based on 18) my guess is Serdi is Thracian version of name Scordisci

20) Scordisci have area of influence moving along Danube and related rivers from Greece to Slovakia (thus practically to Bohemia which is on end of Danube related path)...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci

21) Seneca's mention of Serians in Europe is related to Danube
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

* special thanks to forum member Taranis for clues 8), 9) and 16)

how yes no 2
06-03-11, 19:47
Is there any proof that you link Illyrian VENETI, to Slavic WENDI ???

Veneti are not Illyrian, they might be somewhat related... but Albanian language is also related to Balto-Slavic languages...

here is historic proof of link between Veneti and Slavic people


Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35)
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

Shetop
06-03-11, 23:26
Slovakia, Slovenia, Slavonia - are these all not R1a? And it follows that they're slavs.

We have similar thing with Germanic people. Many would agree that both I1 and R-U106 can claim Germanic origin.

I don't see why there has to be only one Slavic related haplogroup. Check your school book from history and see there who settled Dalmatia.

iapetoc
07-03-11, 02:24
Rascian and Russian are same troibal name as Thracian
as we can see in Etruscans who are called Tyhrsenians by Greeks while they call themselves Rasena

tribal name Tyhrsenian/Rasena that is Thracian/Rascia/Russian corresponds to R1a spread...

what confuses me is Slavic language... where did it come from?
Etruscans are likely R1a and speak non-IE... thus R1a in Asia minor didnot speak IE

Thracians speak IE

also, why did Celtic languages disappear almost completely in continental Europe?


How yes now
Ρωςς means red russo rugo means also red-blonde in Greek
Ross are mentioned that they ride Volga river from baltic and reach Ucraine,
in fact first Ross was Kiev according Byzantines
Ross was the Viking invasion in Ucraine the amber trade river road,
no connection with etrurians or thracians,
in fact it is more possible that Thracians were goths than Vikings or Russians



Since it looks important to many here, I will say it - it is indeed probable that some I2 branches entered Europe (including Balkans) before E-V13. We can see it by different I2* subclades found in Europe, with highest frequency in Crete (5-6%). There is also I2a* in Alpine regions which appears to be very old, and a couple of other older I2 branches, all found in Europe.

But now look at this, we have I2a2a-Disles only found in British Islands and I2a2a-Dinaric is on opposite side of Europe! What I want to say is that each of those branches from above had their own history. And there are even more I2a1 with its own 6 subbranches, than there is I2a2b-Isles, I2b1, I2b2 and others are also possible.

In order to understand what happened you have to analyse every I2 branch separately, and if someone just says that whole I2 are these or those people I think he will never find the truth.

And at the end, whatever happened with I2 and E-V13, discussion about which Y-DNA has more rights is completely out of the line. No people will live better because genetic research shows this or that.

read about E-V13
it is kush Etiopean it is mentioned in hommer
went at 3000 Bc to Cyprus
enter Peloponese at 2000 Bc area Lerna
enter north balkan later

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

I2a could be older

Now about Serdi Sherdana Curdi Sard-eis surdi etc
the area of Greek Makedonian city was phylakai guardians, soldiers,
in thracian or pelasgic name of these people was Surdi
later the romans name that area Servia
pelasgic name for guardians was Ssudcha suda
Surdi Serdi sherdana Curdi (kurdistan) sardeis could mean castle man or r-l Seldati soldiers
cala cale cele celi is the ancient Greek Κελλι or Tsalli Calli
Kallas fortres people
turkish Kule

etc
Caledoni from Cal + edi means the castle people, the city people
as also Chelidoni -> celidoni
although some linguists connect it with snail from Helix
simmilar is in Greece in area were Surdi lived Servia town the near village Γουλαι Gule - Kule
so the Surdi were the guardians of Kulle
and the people of Gule Guledoni

about Etruscans they are considered as pelasgic relatives as also phillistines and ancient Illyrians,
the Racians maybe is not connected with Thracians
but with rasa ( a kind of dress black color, that even today phillistines wear it)
or rakos (the remains of an ex being or thing)
Rakianoi in Greek means the rest of something that ones existed
or Ragians Regians
means that they came from Kings
or Rachians pontic Greek Rasopulo
in Greek means the ones who live in mountains
or r-l as usually in pelasgic
Lacians t-s as pelasgic always did thalatta = thalassa
Latians meaning that they were the original Latins
Lacians simmilar Lacons -.> lakonians la ko no city of stone La = stone in pelasgic
As you see it is more possible that Racians means ex Latins than thracians,
cause we know that thracians never pass west adriatic italy as a major devastation
but expanded north of balkans in far ancienty

I believe that connecting Rascians with thracians is a mistake,
first we must find what it means in their language,


How yes no

Sorviodurum roman soldiers area Servia in Greece Surthia (th as in they d)
Licos La is stone in pelasgic Greek ko no is pyramid or city is pelasgic cono
Licos could means pyramid in a relative pelasgic language or stone city Greek Lakon Lacion larissa
Lissos pelasgic la = stone in doric is Li-thos Lissos means stone fortification rock that reminds fortress
natural rocky fortress, -issa = fortification
also als = sea alissos means fortification in sea Lissos ss->c Licos could mean sea fortress
Cimbri is cyprus CIMBRIS but also copper pelasgic Κουπρ-ος Cypr-os Cumbri greek chalkos
Lycia could means wolf Λυκος also Λουσια area of bath, wash, also same as Licos stone city




Veneti are not Illyrian, they might be somewhat related... but Albanian language is also related to Balto-Slavic languages...

here is historic proof of link between Veneti and Slavic people

in fact modern albanian language is a mystery
Read Gustav Mayer
seems it is connected most with Romanian language
after with turkish
after with slavic
then with Greek Koine
7% is aryan (pelasgic armenian anatolian persian thracian etc)
11% is unknown origin some albanians linguists connect it with egyptian and I believe it is correct cause also in Greek language is a connection with Kushetic but a good linguist could find more cause unknown origin means either Mayer did not know or they come from a very past or very far


"(Dr Kaplan Resuli-Albanologist, academic and Albanian historian):
Modern day Albanian has incorporated words from the countries they inhabited as they passed through and finally settled in what is today modern day Albania.
"On the territory of today's Albania, as has already been confirmed by the most distinguished world scholars, first settled the Slavs. In 548 A.D., they enter also in Durrachium. The Albanians come via Transylvania (Romania) and Bulgaria much later, IX-X century.-->


Our knowledge of Albanian, except for a few words, extends back only as far as the fifteenth century of our era, and when we first meet with it, the vocabulary is so mixed with Latin, Greek, Turkish, and Slavonic elements owing to conquests and other causes that it is somewhat difficult to isolate the original Albanian.
(Albert C. Baugh, Thomas Cable, A History of the English Language, p 25)

``As to the character of the Albanian, it may be affirmed that more than a third of its primitives are Greek roots reduced to their primitive, barbarous and monosyllabic form; it is equally true that the Greek words in Albanian are more closely allied to those in the Aeolic dialect
(Conrad Malte-Brun, Universal Geography, p 109 )

as you see modern albanians are simillar Greek Ydna in majority
but as dienekes found their language arberesh comes from romania,
cause Arberesh have Romanian Y-dna
the ancient illyrian lingua is a small part of language but very valuable to linguists cause they may find elements of thracian and pelasgic language

As you see it is not a Balto-slavic language but mostly a Romanian with turkish
slavic is less than turkish in albania (i dont know about kossyfo)

kossyfo ko+iss+yfo ovo ova
kossyfas a bird in greek
kossyfopedio means land of kossyfo birds
but ko-sso-vun means castle in the mountains
ko-ss-opho means a hole castle 1 way to enter and exit, no return castle
although in another language could mean something else
like kossane in makedonian GR means fortified area in the same area of elimeians is Servia-surdia (phylakai) ang Gulae (kula)



now my mistake is that I try to connect all with Greek or pelasgic or thracian or latin ( as I know) language,
But we must connect them also with the language of the people,
if there is no connection then we try with other neighbor or historical passage languages

I still believe that I Ydna was here Europe before pelasgians J
although they started from same area

how yes no 2
07-03-11, 23:55
How yes now
Ρωςς means red russo rugo means also red-blonde in Greek
think also red or red-blonde hair in Slavic... bit arhaic word in Serbian...


Ross are mentioned that they ride Volga river from baltic and reach Ucraine,
perhaps you are right...
they were Varangians in fact... part of Varangians that settled among Russians had name Rus, but I thought it is more likely that name gone in another direction...name of local population is given to part of Varangians that ruled them...

btw. Finnish name for Swedes is lantut, while for for Sweden is Ruotsi and for Russians Venäläiset




no connection with etrurians or thracians,
in fact it is more possible that Thracians were goths than Vikings or Russians

nope, Thracians were satem speaking people like Baltic people, Slavic people and Albanians..
Goths are kentum speakers...




Now about Serdi Sherdana Curdi Sard-eis surdi etc
the area of Greek Makedonian city was phylakai guardians, soldiers,
in thracian or pelasgic name of these people was Surdi
later the romans name that area Servia
pelasgic name for guardians was Ssudcha suda
Surdi Serdi sherdana Curdi (kurdistan) sardeis could mean castle man or r-l Seldati soldiers
cala cale cele celi is the ancient Greek Κελλι or Tsalli Calli
Kallas fortres people
turkish Kule

etc
Caledoni from Cal + edi means the castle people, the city people
as also Chelidoni -> celidoni
although some linguists connect it with snail from Helix
simmilar is in Greece in area were Surdi lived Servia town the near village Γουλαι Gule - Kule
so the Surdi were the guardians of Kulle
and the people of Gule Guledoni

this is very interesting...
it makes lot of sense to me...


head (leader?) in Iranian languages
ser - Zazaki/ Kurmanji
sar - Pashto, Persian, middle persian..
sairi - Avestan
kala - Mazandani
kalleh - Persian

from Thracian dictionary


sabazias ‘free’ [Old-Bulg. svobod' ‘free’].
..
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_languages

according to history, Serbs come to Balkan from land of Boiki that neighbours Frankia, where they also did originally dwell

btw. Boii
in Slavic Boj = battle/war

in Croatian Bojovnik = soldier
in Serbian/Macedonian Vojnik = soldier
in Bulgarian voinik = soldier
in Slovenian/Czech/Slovak Vojak = soldier
in Polish wojak
in Russian/Ukrainian voin /soldat (as in germanic languages)

in Lithuanian kareivis
in Latvian karavīrs

in Estonian sõdur


about Etruscans they are considered as pelasgic relatives as also phillistines and ancient Illyrians,
the Racians maybe is not connected with Thracians
If Klyosov is right... pelasgues were also R1a
Philisitines I do relate to Pelasges via Peleset sea people... so, I am curious to see whether there is some R1a in Palestine...



As you see it is more possible that Racians means ex Latins than thracians,
cause we know that thracians never pass west adriatic italy as a major devastation
but expanded north of balkans in far ancienty
no, I never claimed that Thracians are Etruscans....
but that both are related to Taurus area...


I believe that connecting Rascians with thracians is a mistake,
first we must find what it means in their language,
Rascians (Rašani) is medieval Serbs
Etruscans are Rasena

but Thracian language is classified as satem IE
if you look for example word for gold it is very alike to Slavic...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367090#post367090



Cimbri is cyprus CIMBRIS but also copper pelasgic Κουπρ-ος Cypr-os Cumbri greek chalkos

actually, I have also seen many theories relating origin of Serb name with Cypress...it is about Sarvestan in Persia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarvestan
(Sarv=cedar (cypress);estan=land; -->sarvestan=land of cedars)
Sarvestan is in Kerman (also Germania/Zermanya) province in Persia, which is roughly where I think haplogroup I* spread started...

curiously, leader of Cimbri is called Boiorix (king of Boii)


Lycia could means wolf Λυκος also Λουσια area of bath, wash, also same as Licos stone city
both wolf and stone make sense....


kossyfo ko+iss+yfo ovo ova
kossyfas a bird in greek
kossyfopedio means land of kossyfo birds
but ko-sso-vun means castle in the mountains
ko-ss-opho means a hole castle 1 way to enter and exit, no return castle
although in another language could mean something else
like kossane in makedonian GR means fortified area in the same area of elimeians is Servia-surdia (phylakai) ang Gulae (kula)
"Kosovo polje" has clear Slavic origin
kos = type of bird (Blackbird in english, see figure bellow)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Kos_Turdus_merulaRB.jpg/210px-Kos_Turdus_merulaRB.jpg

"Kosovo polje" or abbreviated "Kosovo" is field of Blackbirds

how yes no 2
08-03-11, 02:43
"Celto-Slavic Similarities" Pavel-Serafimov
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik06/serafimov_celtoslav06.pdf

btw. regarding Serians of northwest China who produce silk...
look at Tocharian dictionary

http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/toch.htm


ak, ek - an eye (IE *okw- - an eye) - Serbian oko
áre - a plough (IE *ár- - to plough) - Serbian oranje
ásta - bones (IE *kost-, *ost- - a bone) = Serbian kost
ckácar, tkácer - a daughter (IE *dhutér- - a daughter) = Serbian kcer
çtwar, çtwer - four (IE *kwetwores - four) = Serbian cetiri / cetvoro
eçane - an eye = Serbian oko
ents-, en'k - to bear (IE *nek'- - to bear, to carry) = Serbian nositi
i- - to go (IE *ei- - to go) = Serbian ici
ku - a dog (IE *kwon- - a dog) = Serbian kuce
lap - a skull (Greek lophos - a nape, a hill, Slavic lob - a forehead)
lw - a beast = Serbian lav (lion)
lyutár - excessively (Welsh llid < *lúto- - rage, Russian lyuty - angry, terrible) = Serbian ljuto
misa - meat, flesh (IE *méms- - meat) = Serbian meso
mit - honey (IE *medhu- - honey) = Serbian med
nás - us (IE *nosmes - we) = Serbian nas
pärwán, pärwáne - an eyebrow (IE *bhrú- - an eyebrow) = Serbian obrva
parwe - at first (?) (IE *pro-wo- - forward, first) = Serbian prvo
pe, pai - a foot (IE *ped- - a foot) ~ Serbian peta (heel)
plewe - a ship, a boat (IE *pleu- - to sail) ~ Serbian ploviti (to sail)
pokem. - a hand (IE *bhághu- - a hand) ~ Serbian ruka
por., puwar - fire (IE *paur- - inanimate fire) ~ Serbian pozar (uncontrolled fire)
rake, reki - speech, a word (IE *rek- - to speak) ~ Serbian reci (to tell) /rekao (past tense 1st person)
salu, sol - whole (IE *salw- - whole, healthy) ~ Serbian celo
s.älyp, s.alype - fat, oil (IE *selp- - fat) ~ Serbian salo
s'äm, s'ana - a wife (IE *gwen- - a wife, a woman) ~ Serbian zena
smimám. - smiling (participle) (IE *smey- - to laugh) ~ Serbian smeh (laugh), smejati se (to laugh)
s.päm, s.päne - a dream (IE *swep- - to sleep, *swep-no- - a dream) ~ Serbian spavanje
s.top, s.tow - a stick (IE *stúp- - a branch, a stump) ~ Serbian stap
súwa - to eat (Slavic *z'vati - to chew, Latvian z'aunas - gills, Old High German kiuwen - to chew,
Armenian kiv - arboreal resin, Persian javiden - to chew) ~Serbian zvakati
suwam. - it is raining (IE *seu-, *su- - to rain, to flow) ~ Serbian seva (when there are lightnings)
träm-, tärm-, treme (pl.) - to shiver, a shiver (IE *trem- - to shake) ~ Serbian trema (being nervous in sense of shivering)
tsär - rough, shaggy (IE *khar- - sharp) ~ Serbian ostar (sharp)
tsatsápau - warmed (participle) (IE *tep- - warm) ~ Serbian toplo (warm)
wac - a quarrel, struggle (IE *wod- - to speak, to shout) ~ Serbian vikati (to shout)
wak, wek - voice (IE *wekw-/ *wokw- 'voice') ~ Serbian vikati (to shout)
wär - water (IE *war- - water, wet) ~Serbian izvor (source)
wrauña - a crow = Serbian vrana

how yes no 2
12-03-11, 18:14
btw. it is a bit tiring to keep explaining to people who descend from white Oghurs /ak-Hurs / west Hurians, that tribal name Serbs is not due to serving Byzantine emperor but is much older...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367497#post367497

btw. latin verb "servare" is not same as english servant



present active servō, present infinitive servāre, perfect active servāvī, supine servātum.

1. watch over, maintain
2. protect, keep, guard, save
3. preserve, store

Descendants
Italian: servare, serbare
Romanian: serba
Spanish: servar
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/servo#Latin

so, an attempt to translate tribal name using latin dictionary would not mean servants, but guardians, protectors, saviors, the ones who preserve, maintain,......

however, tribal name is much older than Byzantine and Roman empires... and appears in Sherdana (location name after them is Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis), Seurbi in prehistoric pre-Celtic IE Iberia (where they likely arrived via ships with Helleni and Caladuni tribes as can be hinted from Scotish legend of origin), Serboi in Caucasus, Serians throughout Eurosaia (including Caucasian Serboi who live unguarded from Sarmatians, Pasthun Sarbans who live in arc of Serians from Serica in northwest China to India, and Serdi / Scordisci who live around Danube and dare to cross its frozen surface, and including Serians of Red sea who are probably Sheba/Sabaeans)...

to quote again Seneca's statement of Serians, king is the one who has no fear...


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

26. Because they do not fear these enemies.
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.
Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

btw. regarding my previous post that emphasize same words in ancient Tocharian and Serbian of today...
those are select words from link, there are also words that do sound much closer to some Germanic languages...
important to keep in mind is that Tocharians are not Serians of Serica who produce silk, they are closest neighbors of Serians, so they share a part of vocabulary but are far from sharing complete vocabulary with Serians...

in the end, let me remind on the manuscript of Bavarian geographer who claims that state of Zeruiani (Serians/Serbs) was so big that all Slavs come from it....

what puzzles me is that people who descend from ancient Serians and Hurians (Seri and Hurri - day and night) speak the same language... link between this language and Tocharian language shows that the language was spoken by Serians... it is questionable whether that was also language of Hurians as west Hurian (ak - Hur or Oghur) languages are quite different from Slavic languages...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghur_languages

how yes no 2
13-03-11, 02:29
western linear pottery - Dniester and Danube spread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif


early Slavs - 500 AD - Dniester and Danube spread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png


Dniester
http://www.euratlas.net/geography/europe/rivers/dniester.jpg

Dnieper
http://www.euratlas.net/geography/europe/rivers/dnieper.jpg


Don
http://www.euratlas.net/geography/europe/rivers/don.jpg


historic distribution of Slavic languages - supposed core - along Dniester, on east up to Dnieper

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Slavic_distribution_origin.png


Slavonic tribes 9th century - still far west from Don

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Muromian-map.png/588px-Muromian-map.png

I2a2 core - Dniester and Danube spread, on east up up to Dnieper

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif


R1a core - Don spread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

how yes no 2
19-03-11, 23:17
previous post is further elaborated in separate thread concerned with origin of Slavic people

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341


possible relation to Laz people (and many other things) are discussed in posts

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=368310#post368310
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=368311#post368311

how yes no 2
27-03-11, 23:06
an interesting hint
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-4T5BRBK-2&_user=10&_coverDate=08%2F26%2F2008&_rdoc=1&_fmt=high&_orig=gateway&_origin=gateway&_sort=d&_docanchor=&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=6a4947b0282bebb44451f1e185b81dfe&searchtype=a

first image (principal components analysis) from article suggests continuity, as YU sample overlaps with Romanian, Hungarian and Greek sample, and stretches up to Czech sample... this fits well with Scordisci/Tribali/Pannonian origin of south Slavs...


http://www.sciencedirect.com/cache/MiamiImageURL/B6VRT-4T5BRBK-2-3/0?wchp=dGLbVlb-zSkWA

second image (geographic distribution of genetic diversity by computing mean heterozygosity and mean linkage disequilibrium (LD) ) from article suggests that area was depopulated... which is in accordance with historical record of Byzantine emperor calling Serbs to repopulate area that was made desolate by Avars.......

btw. note also that genetic diversity tended to be larger, and the LD smaller, in southern Europe
I think this indicates population of Europe from south


http://www.sciencedirect.com/cache/MiamiImageURL/B6VRT-4T5BRBK-2-6/0?wchp=dGLbVzb-zSkWb

how yes no 2
27-03-11, 23:56
I find Scirii also interesting


It has been suggested that the Sciri, like the Hirri, as mentioned by Pliny the Elder in association with Sarmatians and Venedi, actually belonged to the latter since he does not mention the Sciri among the German people and neither Caesar nor Tacitus mention the Sciri at all.[2]

[2] "Odoacer: German or Hun?"
http://www.jstor.org/pss/1845067
http://www.kroraina.com/varia/pdfs/reynolds&lopez_Odoacer%20-%20German%20or%20Hun.pdf

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scirians


if one takes a look at quoted article, it is explained that there are no arguments at all to put Scirii in Germanic people and that they might rather belong to Slavic people or Huns.....

in my opinion, these Scirii are, next to Scordisci, candidate for Seneca's Serians of Europe and for ancestors of Serbs of today....

interesting is that they are paired with Hirri, same as Serbs are paired with Croats (Hrvati) and Serians with Hurians... Heruli might be later version of name Hirri

Bavarian geographer did say that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... Procopius said that Slavs were before known as Spori... some Slavic historians see Zeruiani and Spori as corruptions of Serb tribal name...

if Sclaveni = Slavs then Scirii = Serians = Zeruiani...

btw. note that change from tribal name Spori to tribal name Sloveni may indicate language shift as in Laz language word 'Supara' means book

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language
and tribal name Sloveni (Slavic people) is derived from word "slovo" = letter (alphabet letter not mail)

(see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26233 for more details about strange links between Laz people and early Slavs)

Aconform
28-03-11, 12:29
I don’t have much of an idea of genetics… one reason I stumbled to this site is i was trying to find information on that…. And it seems interesting.

So far with my limited understanding of genetics there seems to be an indication that the southern part of x-Yugoslavia seems to be different from the north.

My interpretation is that there was a large migration in the southern area before the most resent Slav migration that is well documented. This resent Slavic migration to the area seems to have had a large cultural influence both to the north and south and less genetic influence to the south.

The question is the earlier migration that happened to the south weather it was culturally Slavic is interesting. Because as I se the data genetically it was different from the Slavic migration to the areas from 6th AD.

how yes no 2
15-04-11, 22:31
"Tunguzija" (most correct english spelling would be Tungusia)
is a word that exist in Serbo-Croat and has meaning of far away place, in middle of nowhere...

most people, think the word is invented and has no meaning...

but..
there are Tungusic people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tungusic_people
and their land is colloquially called Tungusia

and in fact is in south Sibir and northwest China - where Serians mentioned by Seneca used to live (besides Caspian highlands, Europe around Danube, and Red sea)

now, one of Tungusic people are Xibe

The Xibe or Sibo[2] ( Sibe; simplified Chinese: 锡伯; traditional Chinese: 錫伯; pinyin: Xībó) are a Tungusic ethnic group living mostly in northeast China and Xinjiang.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xibe

it could be, but is far from sure, that tribal name Xibe/Sibe might origin from same tribal name as Serbs (Srbi in serbo-croatian)... does anyone have solid genetic data for Xibe?

zanipolo
16-04-11, 10:18
clearly by this link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Serbia_%28medieval%29

the serbs where much closer to Greece in the middle ages and nust have been pushed northward by the invading ottomans.

Its interestesting that the name rascia was in kosovo area.

Another interesting fact is that sometimes the serbs are called Servians, Servians where basically from thessally in Greece and north of that.

http://theserbs.webs.com/

how yes no 2
16-04-11, 19:06
Another interesting fact is that sometimes the serbs are called Servians, Servians where basically from thessally in Greece and north of that.
http://theserbs.webs.com/

don't know what you mean by Serbs were from Thesally in Greece...

there is town Servia in Greece but is as far as I know unrelated to Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servia,_Greece
Romans gave that name to the town in 2nd century AD. The name derives from the Latin verb "servo", meaning 'to watch over'. During ancient times, Servia served as a fort for the passage-way between Macedonia and Thessaly.

btw. Iapetoc is probably right about tribal name Serb meaning soldiers...
I read that in Russian word Srb was about soldier caste and that Cossacks originate from that caste....

also other haplogroup I tribal name - German has a meaning related to war and soldiers...
province Kerman in Persia/Iran also known as Germania/Zermanya had a meaning battle/bravery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerman_province

Gomer or Cimmerians were known also as Gimirri which meant hero... Gomer is thought to be ancestor of Germanic people... but Cimmerians/Gomer are thought to have settled in Cappadocia (area is known as Gamir to Armenians)... Cappadocia has Kurdish island of I2* and I2a

Strabo call settlers of Cappadocia white Syrians...

spread of Thraco-Cimmerians in Europe does match spread of early Slavs... and it correlates well with I2a2 spread

root word of Serians also hero
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

manuscript of Bavarian geographer claims that state of Zeruiani (same tribal name as Serians/Syrians, right?) was so big that all Slavs come from it....

modern Serbs origin from white Serbs who settled Balkan from the land they call Boika...the land neighbours Frankia... Byzantine emperor also claimed that it is the land where they have originally dwellt...
http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&ots=7ud7kwEY7r&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

now, Boika is about land of Boii...
the lands where Boii originally lived are Bohemia and Bavaria both named after them because Boii originally dwellt there..... and both neighbouring Frankia... also Serb related toponyms are in that area...Srby 2 times in Bohemia and Sorviodurum (Straubing of today) in Bavaria...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plze%C5%88-South_District)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Doma%C5%BElice_District)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing

Bohemia area in Srby-Srby-Sorviodurum triangle is also local hotspot of I2a2 ... (see results for places Klatovy and Pisek in "Y-Chromosomal Variation in the Czech Republic" Luca et al. and compare to other tested Czech towns...Klatovy is in triangle Srby-Srby-Sorviodurum and has 3 times more I2a2 (I2a - P37 in text) than towns in central, east and north part of Czech republic...Klatovy is somewhat east of the triangle and has twice the frequency typical for other parts of the country)

Boii - in Slavic languages "boj" = battle, "bojovnik/vojnik" = soldier, "vojska" = army, "vojevati" = to participate in war, "vojvoda"is military rank (coin word "voj" + "voda", "voj" related to army/battle, and "voda" is verb 'voditi' meaning to lead) ... thus Boii is also tribal name that has meaning soldier

Cimbri - are thought to origin from Cimmerians... their king had name Boiiorix - or king of Boii

Scordisci are Celtic people related to Boii...
tribal name Scordisci has root Sord (C is inserted as in Sclaveni, and -isci is Celtic ending)
it has thracian version Serdi... Scordisci and Serdi lived in Serbia...
Scordisci lived south of Boii

In Serbia of today Serbia proper is south of Vojvodina (area around Danube, Vojvodina = Voj + vodina = Boii + water (water = "voda" in Slavic, and "vodina" is about large water in nature)...
this name game reflects Scordisci living south of Boii

alternatively, word Vojvodina derives from military rank "vojvoda" again vojvoda is coin word "voj" +"voda" = battle (boj) + lead (voditi)

finally, name Serboi can perhaps also be coin Ser + Boii...so this could be about Serian Boii.. or "S(c)ord(isci)Boii, or "ser" can be about leadership, like in a tittle, so Serboii would be chief Boii. such coin tribal names are not rare e.g. there are Scythians and Royal Scythians, Alani and Roxolani... however, I do not think this is coin word... I think Sherdana/Sardinia/Serdi/Scordisci/Sorbs/Serbs(S(e)rbi) origins from same tribal name of haplogroup I2a... transition from 'd' to 'b' is not at all unusual...if there ever was transition except when writing it in language of ancient historians...since sea peoples Sherdana left a location named after them 'Serbonian bog' or 'Sirbonis'/'Serbonis'...

btw. notice that bulk of military terms such as 'sabre', sword'...have similar root as serb/sord/sard... and that word German might be related to Germanic word for 'spear' and has meaning man with spear....also note that 'spear' in Illyrian is 'sibina' and in latin 'sibyna'/ 'sybina'.... it's interesting that there is high correlation of tribal names German, Serb, and Boii with military related terms... I think that haplogroup I people were traditionally soldiers...

zanipolo
16-04-11, 22:05
don't know what you mean by Serbs were from Thesally in Greece...

there is town Servia in Greece but is as far as I know unrelated to Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servia,_Greece
Romans gave that name to the town in 2nd century AD. The name derives from the Latin verb "servo", meaning 'to watch over'. During ancient times, Servia served as a fort for the passage-way between Macedonia and Thessaly.


btw. notice that bulk of military terms such as 'sabre', sword'...have similar root as serb/sord/sard... and that word German might be related to Germanic word for 'spear' and has meaning man with spear....also note that 'spear' in Illyrian is 'sibina' and in latin 'sibyna'/ 'sybina'.... it's interesting that there is high correlation of tribal names German, Serb, and Boii with military related terms... I think that haplogroup I people were traditionally soldiers...


I meant that the name Serbia was originally Servia , in that these Serbs today really originated from the bulgar slavs, and that the Byzantine nation offered these "rebellious" bulgars who became Servians ( Serbians) a place of refuge further south than what is currently Serbia now.
The Serbian coat of arms for respect has Byzantine symbols/icons

As for meaning of words, it is fasinatting that migratory people take words they discover after migrating and try to make them there own.
These illyrian words where noted in Roman text at around 200BC ( wilkins book)

Servia is
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13732a.htm

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1252947

I thought you knew that the only slavs that migrated into the bulkans where the present bulgars and croatians. Maybe slovenes as well, But I conclude the slovenes are croatians who emigrated into Venetic lands, while the other craotians migrated into illyrian lands
My croat and slovene friends are taught this , while the Serb friend has no idea on how the name serb came around

Anyway, I have found this as well
Serbs belong to the Southslavonic group of Indo-European peoples. As their tradition, culture, language, beliefs, and customs show, the ethnogenesis of Serbs goes far back into the past. Serbian ancestors, Protoslavs and Old Serbs, were described in the 5th century BC by Herodotus, under the names of Neuri and Budini, living north of the Danube in the region between Dniepar and north-eastern Carpathian Mountains.
The first mention of the name "Serbs" appears in the 1st century BC (69- 75), in the Historia naturalis by Plinius Caecilius Secundus, who states that Serbs (Serbi) live on the coast of the Black Sea. In the 2nd century, Claudius Ptolomaius writes in his Geographica that Serbs (Serboi, Sirboi - Serboi, Sirboi) live behind the Caucasus, near the hinterland of the Black Sea. The first mention of the Serbian name on their present ethnical location appears in 822, in the work of Frank chronicler Einhardt (Annales regni Francorum).

how yes no 2
16-04-11, 22:13
I meant that the name Serbia was originally Servia , in that these Serbs today really originated from the bulgar slavs, and that the Byzantine nation offered these "rebellious" bulgars who became Servians ( Serbians) a place of refuge further south than what is currently Serbia now.
The Serbian coat of arms for respect has Byzantine symbols/icons

As for meaning of words, it is fasinatting that migratory people take words they discover after migrating and try to make them there own.
These illyrian words where noted in Roman text at around 200BC ( wilkins book)

Servia is
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/13732a.htm

http://www.jstor.org/pss/1252947

I thought you knew that the only slavs that migrated into the bulkans where the present bulgars and croatians. Maybe slovenes as well, But I conclude the slovenes are croatians who emigrated into Venetic lands, while the other craotians migrated into illyrian lands
My croat and slovene friends are taught this , while the Serb friend has no idea on how the name serb came around

Anyway, I have found this as well
Serbs belong to the Southslavonic group of Indo-European peoples. As their tradition, culture, language, beliefs, and customs show, the ethnogenesis of Serbs goes far back into the past. Serbian ancestors, Protoslavs and Old Serbs, were described in the 5th century BC by Herodotus, under the names of Neuri and Budini, living north of the Danube in the region between Dniepar and north-eastern Carpathian Mountains.
The first mention of the name "Serbs" appears in the 1st century BC (69- 75), in the Historia naturalis by Plinius Caecilius Secundus, who states that Serbs (Serbi) live on the coast of the Black Sea. In the 2nd century, Claudius Ptolomaius writes in his Geographica that Serbs (Serboi, Sirboi - Serboi, Sirboi) live behind the Caucasus, near the hinterland of the Black Sea. The first mention of the Serbian name on their present ethnical location appears in 822, in the work of Frank chronicler Einhardt (Annales regni Francorum).

I do not think you have read my last edit of my previous post...
so i will repeat key part...

Byzantine emperor said Serbs came to Serbia from land they call Boika... I give you here genetic evidence that that was land of Boii or Bohemia

according to Byzantine emperor, modern Serbs origin from white Serbs who settled Balkan from the land they call Boika...the land neighbours Frankia... Byzantine emperor also claimed that it is the land where they have originally dwellt...
http://books.google.com/books?id=3al...page&q&f=false

now, Boika is about land of Boii...
the lands where Boii originally lived are Bohemia and Bavaria both named after them because Boii originally dwellt there..... and both neighbouring Frankia... also Serb related toponyms are in that area...Srby 2 times in Bohemia and Sorviodurum (Straubing of today) in Bavaria...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(P...outh_District)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(D...lice_District)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing

Bohemia area in Srby-Srby-Sorviodurum triangle is also local hotspot of I2a2 ... (see results for places Klatovy and Pisek in "Y-Chromosomal Variation in the Czech Republic" Luca et al. and compare to other tested Czech towns...Klatovy is in triangle Srby-Srby-Sorviodurum and has 3 times more I2a2 (I2a - P37 in text) than towns in central, east and north part of Czech republic...Pisek is somewhat east of the triangle and has twice the frequency typical for other parts of the country)

and you are right I2a2 Serbs did not first settle Balkans in 6th century with Croats and Bulgars... Croats and Bulgars are originally R1a steppe people probably of Turkic or mixed Turkic - iranian origin who accepted Slavic language after rullng over Slavic people...they are Hurians who got to rule over some Serian/Slavic people, while Serbs are Serians in origin...

Serbs were in Balkan before as Scordisci/Serdi ... part of them might retreated to their original home of Bohemia during Roman conquest and they returned in 6th century... but there are other related Serbs, such as the one in Caspian highlands...today Chuvash people with 11.3% of I2a2 might origin partly from Sabirs, who likely partially origin from Serboi mentioned by Ptolemy and Serians of Caspian highlands mentioned by Seneca.... prior to Roman conquest Scordisci did live mixed with Illyrians which explains relatively high E-V13 in today Serbs... Scordisci were alies of Illyrians when they were attacked by Dacians in their war with Celtic people...


Seneca clearly states that Serians live throughout Euroasia...both in Europe, in caspian highlands, in south Siberia/north China and on Red sea... Capadocia cluster of I2a is clearly related to same people as Strabo calls Cappadocians white Syrians....those Cappadocia people are Cimmerians and archeological sites of Thraco-Cimmerians in Europe match early Slavs and I2a2 spread...in same time manuscript of Bavarian geographer states that the state of Zeruiani (which is clearly same tribal name as Serian/Syrian) was so big that all Slavs origin from it...

all together it is overwhelming evidence pointing in same direction and telling same story......


The Serbian coat of arms for respect has Byzantine symbols/icons
not true...
Byzantine coat of arms that you refer to appears only in 11th century with royal family of Palaiologos that origins from Serb settled Macedonia... same symbols exist in coats of arms of Serbian nobles house of Mrnjavcevici from Macedonia...so the symbols might have travelled other way around...

especially because we can attest elements of Serbian coat of arms in Poland and Belorusia as I have explained in
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25689-New-haplogroup-I2a-map&p=362715#post362715
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25689-New-haplogroup-I2a-map&p=362844#post362844
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25689-New-haplogroup-I2a-map&p=362846#post362846
...
in any case it has nothing to do with being grateful to Byzantine empire... as both Byzantine and Serb coat of arms appear at least 4 centuries after the settlement time...

zanipolo
18-04-11, 12:47
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

how yes no 2
18-04-11, 20:39
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

that's not really worth reading...

it is typical Croatian propaganda.... do not know how can anyone take that seriously...
Croat authors are well known as falsifiers of history...

put invertor before what you read there..


1) text claims Croats were also commonly known as Goths... however, there is only single disputed source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chronicle_of_the_Priest_of_Duklja) that names south Slavs (not Croats in particular) as Goths and it is written much after settlement of south Slavs on Balkan...
the source does though provide history of Gothic rulers in area and claims how later division on Serbs and Croats came after two sons of one of the kings have divided their state... and since part along the sea (including Montenegro) was named Croatia the people there became Croats, and since part further from sea that is described as Bosnia and Rascia was named Serbia, people living there were named Serbs....source speaks of Goths being wild, aggressive and numerous people and that later they did let few Slavs who were good people to settle among them... source also claims that Bulgarians came to area as Slavic speaking people and that their settlement was extremelly massive...which again contradicts other sources...


2) while text claims Carpathians were called Harvate mountains (Carpatians), their name in fact comes from Thracian Greek Καρπάτῆς όρος (Karpates oros), meaning "rocky mountain"...Carpatians were also named by a tribe, but not as Harvate mountains, but as montes Serrorum... I think I have explained well who the Serians were... I do not exclude possibility that Croats tribal name is derived from name for settlers of Carphatians... but obviously flow of the name cannot be in direction that text infers and from what I could see there was never mention of Carpathians as Harvate mountains...only as montes Serrorum...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Mountains

3) text claims that Croats are named after the Harahvaiti or Sarasvati River... well it is Saraswati and not Harahvati... The name Saraswati came from "saras" (meaning "flow") and "wati" (meaning "a woman").... so much about that link unless tribal name Croats means 'flowing woman' or 'woman's flow'...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarasvati

4) there is the claim "The Sarmatians were generally identified as Scythians."...simply not true...we know that Scythians and Sarmatians were different people and competing for resources..... legend of origin of Sarmatians recorded by Greeks though sets them as offshot of group of Scythians intermarrying group of Amazones...

5) older versions of the paper contained claim that tribal name Serb comes from iranian Charv that means cattle... but obviously to anyone with a brain, Charv can rather be origin of Croat (Hrvati) than of Serbian (Srbi) tribal name

6) "Our investigations have led us to believe that of the Serbs presently in Bosnia and Herzegovina 32 to 35% are descended from Orthodox Croats, 50 to 52% are from non-Slavic Wallachs, 6 to 7% are from Serbianized Bulgarians, Greeks, Armenians and Albanians and 8 to 10% from genuine ethnic Serbs who came there mainly during Austro-Hungarian rule and during the time of the two Yugoslavias. (Mandic 1970, ch.7)"

however, Serbs from Bosnia and Serbs from Serbia have roughly same percentages of various YDNA haplogroups, while in Croats regional differences are enormous.... which clearly indicates recent big admixtures in Croats, and distant past of Serb ethnogenesis...

text claims that 30% of Bosnia Serbs are Croat origin, while historical sources of Byzantines speak of Narentanes or Paganians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pagania) who are forefathers of Herzegovian and south Croatia Croats (and also most I2a2 dominant people in world and clear source of I2a2 in Croats) as unbaptized Serbs...
http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA165#v=onepage&q&f=false

even in WW2 official politics of Croats was to kill 1/3 of Serbs, to expell 1/3, and to convert to catholics thus to Croats the remaining third.... so much about who has 30% of whose genes there...

zanipolo
25-04-11, 12:22
interesting article linked

http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/pdf/0300058462.pdf

its about serbs, croats, other slavs and also the great migration.

how yes no 2
04-05-11, 01:31
sea peoples invasion explains how Serians mentioned by Seneca
are Cimmerians, and related to Veneti and how both Serians and Veneti are same race - I2 people

Serians are without doubt the source of tribal name of Serbs and of I2a2 genetics of modern Serbs

more on thread about sea peoples

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=371381&viewfull=1#post371381

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=371418&viewfull=1#post371418

how yes no 2
06-05-11, 03:12
I am puzzled about R1a and I2a in proto-Serbs, but perhaps when searching for tribal identity I should look in mitohondrial lineages as Serbs tribal name probably origin from queen of Sheba, and we know that Ptolemy records Serboi as living next to Amazones


from article about genetic study of Etruscans...these are near eastern components in mtDNA of Tuscany....

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/bin/AJHGv80p759fg3.jpg
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/

note how core of R0a is in area of ancient Sheba
there we find legendary queen of Sheba, known in south of her country as Makeda, and by Arabs (thus on east of her country) as Balkis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba

this maps both by names and by geographical orientation to Serbs, to Macedonians south of Serbs, and to Bulgars east of them

look again at R0a in Europe - clearly Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgars and Etruscans... no one else nowhere around

but this indicates that there never was big movement of people!!

what could have happened is that pressed by Roman empire spreading part of Serbs, or Scordisci/Serdi goes up the Danube to Bohemia and to return after Roman empire is falling a part... and in same way that part of Bulgars retreat along shores of Black sea to Volga river and to return when Roman empire is falling a part....

this is in accordance with Russian primary chronicle


After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied
the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and
the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of
Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian
lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known
by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by
the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these
same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs
attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs.
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

zanipolo
06-05-11, 09:36
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1852723/bin/AJHGv80p759fg3.jpg
[/URL]

look again at R0a in Europe - clearly Serbs, Macedonians, Bulgars and Etruscans... no one else nowhere around
[URL="http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf"] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba)

what does this mean ?

In that map I see - Macedomians, hellenic, epirots, dacians, illyrians and maybe on the fringes , the celtics


is this true on the meaning of serbs below?
http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Serb

how yes no 2
07-07-11, 20:14
I made nice summary of all my posts about white Serians...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26599-Did-you-know-that-Kurds(Kurdish-PeoPle)-are-Europeans&p=374710&viewfull=1#post374710

how yes no 2
12-08-11, 01:10
I would postulate possibility that Dorians were actually same people as Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryans...


Homeric Dera means fleece
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26187-Macedonians&p=365872&viewfull=1#post365872



Seres (Gr. Σῆρες, Lat. Sērēs) was the ancient Greek and Roman name for the inhabitants of eastern Central Asia, but could also extend to a number of other Asian people in a wide arc from China to India.[1] It meant "of silk," or people of the "land where silk comes from." The country of the Seres was Serica.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seres

Seneca captures world spread of Serians:
in Europe living around Danube (as Scordisci/Serdi in that time do), ruling over Scythians, in Caspian higlands living among Sarmatians (as Serboi/Serbi do), in Asia where they make fleece, and on red sea (possible match are Sabeans)


369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
.....
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

Dorians might have been same people as Serians/Zeruiani/Zoryani - people named after Slavic tripple goddess Zorya - also known as star Danica... thus making those people perhaps from the stock of Danaans.... which explains why Homerolog Roberto Sallinas Price claims that Homer's work was originally written in slavic-like language...
btw. what if Homer is not personal name, but a nation of blind poet - Gomer or Cimmerian...

Zorya = serbian 'zora' = 'dawn' in english
serbian 'dan' = 'day' in english

Teshub (this is his Hurrian name, Hattian name is Taru, Hittite and Luwian name is Tarhun ) is clearly same god as Germanic Thor, Celtic Taranis, Baltic Perkunas and Slavic Perun..it is primery god of IE people....his carriage was drawn by two sacred bulls Seri and Hurri..their names mean day and night....



The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

thus, Seri = day
Zorya = dawn
Sera = Dera = fleece..
Seri = day and bull


The Morning Star is Zorya Utrennyaya (from Russian utro, meaning "morning"; also known as Zvezda Danica, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zwezda Dnieca, Zvezda Zornitsa, Gwiazda Poranna, Rannia Zoria, Zornica, Zornička), who opens the gates of Dažbog's palace each morning so that the Sun may begin his journey.[3] She is depicted as a warrior goddess, ....In some tales, she sits under the World Tree on the fiery-stone Alatuir, from which run the four rivers of the Otherworld, and under her seat flows the river of healing.....Alatuir is altai mountain and 4 rivers that separate world tree of people of same IE origin from other world (Chinese and Mongolians) are these

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Ob_watershed.png/600px-Ob_watershed.png

this is about land of Serica bordering other world, world of Chinese and Mongolians....

land of Serica is marked with remains of haplogroup I in asia..both Serica proper that relates to northwest china (where today Sart and white-Sart people live), and arc from China to India (exactly where Sarbans live)...

https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png


Sart is a name for the settled inhabitants of Central Asia which has had shifting meanings over the centuries. Sarts, known sometimes as Ak-Sart ("White Sart") in ancient times, did not have any particular ethnic identification, and were usually (though not always) town-dwellers.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart


interestingly, the Muslim, Mongol-speaking Dongxiang people of Northwestern China call themselves Sarta or Santa. It is not clear if there is any connection between this term and the Sarts of Central Asia.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart


Zorya is also associated with moon

Conflicting accounts exist of her marital situation. In some myths, she is described as the wife of Perun and would accompany her husband into battle. In this role she was known to protect those warriors she favoured against death by letting down her veil. In other accounts, both she and Zorya Vechernyaya were the wives of the male Myesyats, the moon god, and by him bore all of the stars.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya


13-th century Mongolian source, "Secret History of the Mongols" states that the Mongols called people from Central Asia, most notably Khwarezm, as "Sartuul". "Sar" in Mongolian means "moon", hence sart or sarta would mean "ones with (flag with) moon", since the Muslim people had Hilal symbol on their flags. One of the Mongolian tribes living in the Zavkhan province are descendants of merchants from Khwarezm, who resided in Harhorin. This tribe, still, is called Sartuul.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

thus,
Dera = Sera = fleece
Zorya = dawn
dan = day
Seri = day and bull
Sar = moon

Sar+dan = moon+day

moon and bull on helmets of Sherdana (only toponym left after them is "Serbonian bog")
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples18.jpg


The name of the Serbonian Bog (Arabic: مستنقع سربون‎) applied to the lake of Serbonis (Sirbonis or Serbon) in Egypt relates to the Sea Peoples. When sand blew onto it, the Serbonian Bog appeared to be solid land, but was in fact a bog. The term is now applied metaphorically to any situation in which one is entangled from which extrication is difficult.
The Serbonian Bog has been identified as Sabkhat al , one of the string of "Bitter Lakes" to the east of the Nile's right branch. It was described in ancient times as a quagmire, in which armies were fabled to be swallowed up and lost.
The term Serbonian came from the name of the Sherden (also known as Serden or Shardana) sea pirates, one of several groups of Sea Peoples who appear in fragmentary Egyptian records in the 2nd millennium BC.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

tribal name Serbs likely origin from Slavic word "Srp" meaning sickle or crescent...

isn't this flag of medieval serbs nobles (also used as coat of arms of Serbs) with moon showing its different phases...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Herb_mrnjavcevici.jpg

isn't it same motive as celtic cross?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Monasterboice_12.jpg/400px-Monasterboice_12.jpg

Danaans = Dorians = Zoryans/Zeruiani = Serians = white-Syrians = Cimmerians= Sumerians = Gomer = Sherdana = Scordisci = Serdi = white Serbs = white -Sart

Scordus mountain named after Scordisci is in turikish "Shar Dagh" thus almost exactly the same as sherdana...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains

clearly, Sherdana must have contributed to Kurds as their ancestors are only logical explanation for sea peoples puzzle considering the order of conquest of sea people



A terminus ante quem for the destruction of the Hittite empire has been recognised in an inscription carved at Medinet Habu in Egypt in the eighth year of Ramesses III (1175 BC). This text narrates a contemporary great movement of peoples in the eastern Mediterranean, as a result of which "the lands were removed and scattered to the fray. No land could stand before their arms, from Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya on being cut off. "http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sea_people

order of contest Hatti, Kode, Carchemish, Arzawa, Alashiya clearly places invading people in location of Kurds

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/78/Amarnamap.png/772px-Amarnamap.png

Kurds have significant I2a-Din

back to Zorya...

The [B]home of the Zorya was sometimes said to be on Bouyan (or Buyan), an oceanic island paradise where the Sun dwelt along with his attendants, the North, West and East windshttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya

the home of white Serbs is Bohemia, where they also originally dwellt...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

Gomer or Cimmerians are thought to have settled Cappadocia
in Strabo's times both tribes of Cappodocians = white-Syrians

Serbs are called white-Serbs... other people who origin from Serica have names like Sarbans, Sarta, white-Sart... Cimmerians are white-Syrians which according to Strabo's text in fact meant white Sumerians..


and those people who in a special sense of the term are called by the men of to‑day Syrians, who extend as far as the Cilicians and the Phoenicians and the Judaeans and the sea that is opposite the Aegyptian Sea and the Gulf of Issus.

2 It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon. http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/16A*.html

archeological findings of Thraco-cimmerians = spread of I2a-Din in Europe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

and spread of early Slavs
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png

manuscript of Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it...

in the end note the Siraces, who live among Sarmatians (most hellenized of all Sarmatians) and are thought to be same as Serboi (Serboi are those Serians who live in Caspian highlands unguarded from Sarmatians)


The Siraces (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Sirakoi, Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_language): [I]Siraci, also Siraceni and Seraci[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces#cite_note-PHIL-0)) were a hellenized (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hellenized) Sarmatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatian) tribe that inhabited Sarmatia Asiatica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatians); the coast of Achardeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuban_River) at the Black Sea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea) south of the Caucasus mountains (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus_mountains), Siracena (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Siracena&action=edit&redlink=1)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces#cite_note-PHIL-0) is mentioned by Tacitus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus) as one of their settlements. They were said to be relatively small nation but with great moral.
...
They are believed to be the same or connected to the Serboi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serboi).
[/URL]

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces#cite_note-SA-1)

Dorianfinder
12-08-11, 15:03
hi yes no - first you convinced yourself that I2 was ancient Veneti marker and now you are convinced that I2 is the ancient Serb marker. Then you jump from Serb to Doric. Your posts could be much clearer, try to use Occam's razor (law of parsimony), you know a lot but you use your express your knowledge in a generally reckless manner (maps). I apologize for being so direct but I think you can make a great contribution if you choose to express yourself in short, succinct statements with a short conclusion to sum it up (note: you will need I2 frequencies in regions settled by the Serbs and Dorians). If you do this it will be easier to follow and more people may join in your discussion, just a thought.

Bodin
16-08-11, 05:38
Regulus
It is very good question but the answer is not easy.

I must say that I read some of the assumptions that the R1a in the Balkans is very old but Klyosov's assumption about 11,650 ± 1550 years BP, is really exceeded all expectations.

What can one say about such bold statements?

Variant a) If the Klyosov is right it is possible that the R1a in the Peloponnese is very very old

Variant b) If we stick to the official history (which has no anchor points in genetic research) R1a may be much more recent,

Variant c) It is possible that the R1a older than the official historiography, but not as old as it claims Klyosov

Variant d) It is possible that part of R1a is very old and the other part is the newer variant

Variant e) it is more a question than an answer, how is it that the Slavs and Avars present only Slavic R1a, and what about the Avar haplogroups?

And so on. Certainly in-depth research, including determination of the age specific population (the time when the population appeared in any territory) are demanding and expensive, researches must find human remains from different periods that can be used to test DNA sample.

However, How and no and I can have the difference in assumptions, which does not mean that one can reliably say who is right, and it is good that there are different views, because only through mutual discussion, we can get closer to the truth.

Own thesis:

Originally, Slavs are R1a people

Originally, Serbs are I people

Serbian people, in genetic terms, are not Slavs

Serbs used I language, completely different from R1a Slavic language

One of the keys to the secrets is discover of ancient I language

How have linked the two very different populations I people and R1a people, and why I people received language and culture of R1a people not known

General confusion, there were in the Balkans and I and R1a populations both of which are old and need to determine how old, also from other parts and I populations and R1a populations came and these populations ranged from the Balkans to Central Europe, Ukraine, Black Sea, Karpata and back to the Balkans

Vinca culture belonged to either I or R1a population

In ancient times and earlier I and R1a tribes probably were classified as some of the Thracian, Celtic, and Illyrian tribes

History of the Balkans will be re-written when it comes to relevant data about population I and R1a

But I and R1a people are completely different, I people probably come from Anatolia and R1a people probably come from Central Asia.
Maybe I have a clue who were I peoples - Sarmatians . Pliny Elder mention Sarmatian tribes of Serboi ( Serbs) and Heruvatoi ( Croats ) ..Diodorus Siculus say that Scytians moved parts of Medians to they kingdom during they rule in Asia in VII century BC , and that Medians are called Sarmatians which means Solar Medes .And Kurds are descendants of Medians , thats why Sarmatians and Kurds both have I2a2 .I2a2 is not a Slavic haplogroup , it is Saramatian . Slavs are mainly R1a and they are descendants of Scytians and nations they have conquered - Melanhleni , Neuri ,Androphage, ... I2a2 is strong in all regions where Sarmatians use to live : Ukraine ( coast of Black see -homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , also there was some movement of Serbs in XVIII century to east Ukraine , and there is report by Byzantine patriarch Nichophorus that parts of Serbs and Croats have escaped on empty lands in today Poland and Slovakia-Bielochorbatoi around Krakow and Lendzans "those who live on empty land" -Serbian word ledina means the same ,and its cognate to Germanic word land , in today Ukraine and Belarus - Boiki and Rusini by Rascia one of Serbian states in Midle ages . It is interesting that higher level of I mth haplogroup in Europe is in Boiki 10% , and that haplogroup use to be 10% in Scandinavia during Midle ages but it has decreased. Boiki do not call themselves that, its an egzonime , because they use word bo same to Bosnian bona or bo/bolan that is used in Mačva in Serbia ), Moldavia and Romania ( also homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , after colapse of Huns hier lives Ants whose names are Iranian- Sarmatian , also during the Hunic empire Saramatians use to live in Banat) , Sardinia ( Vandals mixed with Alans after move to Africa setled hier ,I think there is some I2 in Lybia to . Tacitus say that Vandals were Saramatian nation) ,Serbia - Croatia -Bosnia -Macedonia-Montenegro (setled by Sarmatian tribes of Serbs-Serboi-Siraci and Croats -Harauati mentioned by Pliny the Elder like Sarmatian tribes), Bulgaria ( Bulgarians could partialy been Sarmatian , and there is emperor Constantine setling of 500.000 Sarmatians in Thrace , same is the case in Greece , also around Thesaloniki was first setling place of Serbs , Albania was part of Car Dušans empire , north Albania to river Liesus was in Serbian state Dioclitia-Duklja and some sources say Serbs and Croats use to hold to Apolonia - today city of Fier) , Hungary ( Magyars brought with them parts of Yazigs , in Hunic and Avar empire Sarmatians lived in Banat , and Turks chase population of Banat diper in to Hungary, there was also Serb and Croatian setling in Hungary), Slovenia( there used to live Venets probably cousins of Vandals , also great numbers of Croats escaped there infront of Turks ),north parts of Ossetians ( others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village,haplogroup G is conected to goath breaders and is present on every big mountin like Caucasus , also high in Alpes-Austria, Apenins-Italy , Asia Minor ) , Czech republic ( Croats move on Balkans from there , in X century there was a Croatian kingdom under Slavnik family, Serbians comed from Boiki- Bohemia caled after Celtic tribe Boii, in Bohemia there is 3-4 times higher procent of I2a2 then in rest of Czech- 14,6% in Klatovy and 9,2% in Pisek , rest about 4% ) , Mordvinia republic in Russia ( in the area around Ryazansk moved groups of Roxolani , today Volga Tatars in this republic has 18,4% I2a2) ,Spain ( Alan and Vandal setlement , Katalonia), France ( few Alanic kingdoms) , England ( 5000 Sarmatian auxiliars - king Arthur) , Germany(Bavaria is also caled after Boii and could be part of Boiki , in southern Germany there is 5% I2a , and in the rest 1-2% ). So all of I2a2 can be explained by Sarmatians moving , and its not Slavic , it is spread in Slavic countries because they use to live on same lands and mixed a lot. When King of Germany Heinrich conquered White Serbs he bild fortres of Meissen in place of their main city Gaza , so center of White Serbs was not in todays Lužica but further west , so Sorabs are mainly descedants of Lugii , Celtic tribe , they have 60% of R1a . That could be partialy because Czechs rulers kill a lot of them during wars in Xth century , and there was probably a lot of raping .
There is also theory that I2a2 is paleolitic haplogroup who setled Balkans during last glacial maximum , that makes no sence because Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers , also Mesapi population of southern Italy has no I2a2 and they are Illyrians that crossed Adriatic see.They even use to speak simillar languague to Illyrian.
There is few teories how Serbians and Croats accepted Slavic languague , one that sound most reliable to me is that Sarmatians use to marry Slavic speacking womans while they use to rule over the mases of Slavs around Pripyat - like all Iranians they use to have more then one woman . Since Sarmatians and they womans of Sarmatian origin use to spend most of the time in wars and horsebriding , Slavic wifes look after the childs , so childs have lurned Slavic languague from them .
Eneti were from Paphlagonia and there is also higher percent of I2a2 , displaced a bit to the west due to Turks conquering , they settled in today Veneto there , in neighbouring Trevizo(9%) and Slovenia(22%) is higher I2a2 than in the rest of Italy.Same roots as Eneti has Vandals , Anti , Veneti , Wends,... In northeast China - Xiangyang use to live nation Yuezhi who were caucasian , they have same roots like Alan tribe of Asii , and Yazigi .It is interesting that German gods are separated in two groups Vaeniri and Aesiri , maybe the names had to do someting with worshiping of particular group of gods .
Kurds have K haplogroup ,and the Serbs to around 3% in some aerias up to 7% . Also Volga Tatari - inhabitants of Mordvinia republic in Russia where setled some Roxolans has 7,99% K and 18,4% I2a2 . Think that is K*.Also there is K* haplogroup in north Ossetia from 0% in Digora up to 21,7% in Zamankul.
I would like to say that I am not claiming that Serbs do not have Slavic origins at all , I only say that they ancestor were Sarmatians , who use to mix a lot with Slavs , so Serbian mthDNA is much closer to Slavic than yDNA , so Serbians ( and Croatians ) are Slavs but mostly by mother line .
My theory about haplogroup I is that it emerged in the aeria of Pamir in Tadjikistan from IJ and then gradualy moved toward the Europe . In Xingyang in China use to live nation of Yuezhi whose name is very similar to the name of Yazigi one of the Alan tribe, name Alan meen " one that live in stepes" .Today in Xingyang live Uygurs with 60% of R1a haplogroup and 33% of I haplogroup . That I from Pamir give Germanic I1 and I2b and Median I2a moving gradualy over Central Asia and mixing with R1a which one lived there.
There is story in Herodothus that Scythians were moved from they lands in Central Asia by Masagets in to the land of Chimmerians which is then given the name of Scythia . And Masagets and Tisagets are ancestors of Alans - later they conjoined and taked name Alan - one thet live in steppes .These movement of Masagets was probably in the same time like movement of Medes on Zagros and they were relatives .
Serbian and Croatian titles župan i ban are Iranian , Herodotus say that name of first ruler of Medes was Deyoka , acctualy that is a title dah yanka -lord of nation = župan.

zanipolo
16-08-11, 06:32
Maybe I have a clue who were I peoples - Sarmatians . Pliny Elder mention Sarmatian tribes of Serboi ( Serbs) and Heruvatoi ( Croats ) ..Diodorus Siculus say that Scytians moved parts of Medians to they kingdom during they rule in Asia in VII century BC , and that Medians are called Sarmatians which means Solar Medes .And Kurds are descendants of Medians , thats why Sarmatians and Kurds both have I2a2 .I2a2 is not a Slavic haplogroup , it is Saramatian . Slavs are mainly R1a and they are descendants of Scytians and nations they have conquered - Melanhleni , Neuri ,Androphage, ... I2a2 is strong in all regions where Sarmatians use to live : Ukraine ( coast of Black see -homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , also there was some movement of Serbs in XVIII century to east Ukraine , and there is report by Byzantine patriarch Nichophorus that parts of Serbs and Croats have escaped on empty lands in today Poland and Slovakia-Bielochorbatoi around Krakow and Lendzans "those who live on empty land" -Serbian word ledina means the same ,and its cognate to Germanic word land , in today Ukraine and Belarus - Boiki and Rusini by Rascia one of Serbian states in Midle ages . It is interesting that higher level of I mth haplogroup in Europe is in Boiki 10% , and that haplogroup use to be 10% in Scandinavia during Midle ages but it has decreased. Boiki do not call themselves that, its an egzonime , because they use word bo same to Bosnian bona or bo/bolan that is used in Mačva in Serbia ), Moldavia and Romania ( also homeland of Sarmatians after they conquered Scytians , after colapse of Huns hier lives Ants whose names are Iranian- Sarmatian , also during the Hunic empire Saramatians use to live in Banat) , Sardinia ( Vandals mixed with Alans after move to Africa setled hier ,I think there is some I2 in Lybia to . Tacitus say that Vandals were Saramatian nation) ,Serbia - Croatia -Bosnia -Macedonia-Montenegro (setled by Sarmatian tribes of Serbs-Serboi-Siraci and Croats -Harauati mentioned by Pliny the Elder like Sarmatian tribes), Bulgaria ( Bulgarians could partialy been Sarmatian , and there is emperor Constantine setling of 500.000 Sarmatians in Thrace , same is the case in Greece , also around Thesaloniki was first setling place of Serbs , Albania was part of Car Dušans empire , north Albania to river Liesus was in Serbian state Dioclitia-Duklja and some sources say Serbs and Croats use to hold to Apolonia - today city of Fier) , Hungary ( Magyars brought with them parts of Yazigs , in Hunic and Avar empire Sarmatians lived in Banat , and Turks chase population of Banat diper in to Hungary, there was also Serb and Croatian setling in Hungary), Slovenia( there used to live Venets probably cousins of Vandals , also great numbers of Croats escaped there infront of Turks ),north parts of Ossetians ( others are quite simillar to surounding nations - probably has something to do with custom to rape whole conquered village,haplogroup G is conected to goath breaders and is present on every big mountin like Caucasus , also high in Alpes-Austria, Apenins-Italy , Asia Minor ) , Czech republic ( Croats move on Balkans from there , in X century there was a Croatian kingdom under Slavnik family, Serbians comed from Boiki- Bohemia caled after Celtic tribe Boii, in Bohemia there is 3-4 times higher procent of I2a2 then in rest of Czech- 14,6% in Klatovy and 9,2% in Pisek , rest about 4% ) , Mordvinia republic in Russia ( in the area around Ryazansk moved groups of Roxolani , today Volga Tatars in this republic has 18,4% I2a2) ,Spain ( Alan and Vandal setlement , Katalonia), France ( few Alanic kingdoms) , England ( 5000 Sarmatian auxiliars - king Arthur) , Germany(Bavaria is also caled after Boii and could be part of Boiki , in southern Germany there is 5% I2a , and in the rest 1-2% ). So all of I2a2 can be explained by Sarmatians moving , and its not Slavic , it is spread in Slavic countries because they use to live on same lands and mixed a lot. When King of Germany Heinrich conquered White Serbs he bild fortres of Meissen in place of their main city Gaza , so center of White Serbs was not in todays Lužica but further west , so Sorabs are mainly descedants of Lugii , Celtic tribe , they have 60% of R1a . That could be partialy because Czechs rulers kill a lot of them during wars in Xth century , and there was probably a lot of raping .
There is also theory that I2a2 is paleolitic haplogroup who setled Balkans during last glacial maximum , that makes no sence because Greeks and Albanians -old popultions have less I2a2 then Serbs and Croats-newcomers , also Mesapi population of southern Italy has no I2a2 and they are Illyrians that crossed Adriatic see.They even use to speak simillar languague to Illyrian.
There is few teories how Serbians and Croats accepted Slavic languague , one that sound most reliable to me is that Sarmatians use to marry Slavic speacking womans while they use to rule over the mases of Slavs around Pripyat - like all Iranians they use to have more then one woman . Since Sarmatians and they womans of Sarmatian origin use to spend most of the time in wars and horsebriding , Slavic wifes look after the childs , so childs have lurned Slavic languague from them .
Eneti were from Paphlagonia and there is also higher percent of I2a2 , displaced a bit to the west due to Turks conquering , they settled in today Veneto there , in neighbouring Trevizo(9%) and Slovenia(22%) is higher I2a2 than in the rest of Italy.Same roots as Eneti has Vandals , Anti , Veneti , Wends,... In northeast China - Xiangyang use to live nation Yuezhi who were caucasian , they have same roots like Alan tribe of Asii , and Yazigi .It is interesting that German gods are separated in two groups Vaeniri and Aesiri , maybe the names had to do someting with worshiping of particular group of gods .
Kurds have K haplogroup ,and the Serbs to around 3% in some aerias up to 7% . Also Volga Tatari - inhabitants of Mordvinia republic in Russia where setled some Roxolans has 7,99% K and 18,4% I2a2 . Think that is K*.Also there is K* haplogroup in north Ossetia from 0% in Digora up to 21,7% in Zamankul.
I would like to say that I am not claiming that Serbs do not have Slavic origins at all , I only say that they ancestor were Sarmatians , who use to mix a lot with Slavs , so Serbian mthDNA is much closer to Slavic than yDNA , so Serbians ( and Croatians ) are Slavs but mostly by mother line .
My theory about haplogroup I is that it emerged in the aeria of Pamir in Tadjikistan from IJ and then gradualy moved toward the Europe . In Xingyang in China use to live nation of Yuezhi whose name is very similar to the name of Yazigi one of the Alan tribe, name Alan meen " one that live in stepes" .Today in Xingyang live Uygurs with 60% of R1a haplogroup and 33% of I haplogroup . That I from Pamir give Germanic I1 and I2b and Median I2a moving gradualy over Central Asia and mixing with R1a which one lived there.
There is story in Herodothus that Scythians were moved from they lands in Central Asia by Masagets in to the land of Chimmerians which is then given the name of Scythia . And Masagets and Tisagets are ancestors of Alans - later they conjoined and taked name Alan - one thet live in steppes .These movement of Masagets was probably in the same time like movement of Medes on Zagros and they were relatives .
Serbian and Croatian titles župan i ban are Iranian , Herodotus say that name of first ruler of Medes was Deyoka , acctualy that is a title dah yanka -lord of nation = župan.

Do you have proof that Serbians are sarmatians ?. Since Goths resided on the black sea area for 250 years before the invasion of Roman empire and that the Germanic bastanae tribe was there before the Goths, seems to indicate that the sarmatians and syctians are further East. maybe between the black and caspanian seas

Milovan
16-08-11, 07:02
I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on syllables like ser, sar, ras etc a lot of it could be just wishful thinking. I do believe that all slavs are a hybrid people made up of scythian, sarmatian, cimmerian, greek bosporus and indigenous balkan peoples (possibly illyrian or pre illyrian vinca). I think y dna hap I is indigenous to the balkans and it migrated to the steppes where it mixed with scythian and sarmatian peoples of the steppes. Serbs and Croats kept their earlier Alan tribal names, possibly veneti, antes etc are earlier tribal names as well. In Iranian theories of yugoslavs you always hear about slavicization as if they are not slavs, i think that's wrong, yes there was slavicization but it was the melding of Hap I balkan people moving towards the steppes and the aryan hap R1a and R1b peoples already there that created slavs.
I also believe germanics to be a hybrid people of scythian, celtic and old european (hap I) as well.
I believe serbs and croats were originally a mix of R1a and I2 but R1a predominantly, then when they invaded the balkans and settled there mixing with balkan inhabitants they absorbed even more I2 (then they already had) and other greco-balkan haplogroups. I heard somewhere lusatian serbs (sorbs,wends) are over 70% R1a, I cannot remember the source of that though.


I think that the Alans along with other sarmatians were R1a dominant and that the G2a in Ossetians comes from the caucasus inhabitants they absorbed. I'd like to see an autosomal chart of Ossetians as I believe it will show them to be far closer to slavs then y-dna shows. Ossetian history talks about them being wiped out by Tamerlane, this could have been mostly men dying fighting while the women and children got away, the majority of women possibly found husbands of neighboring caucuses tribes that were able to speak there language, this would be a big change in y-dna towards a typical caucasus direction if it were true. Their folklore/mythology is like other caucasus tribes as well (nart sagas) it is not aryan like the armenian paganism or slavic paganism etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lj0BK-zLoJ4
the video is kind of political but it's the only link I have for you.
in the video you will see they are a lot like other caucusus peoples and you will see what they say about Tamerlane massacring them. they do not mention taking husbands of other tribes but based on y-dna and the absence of aryan mythology being replaced by caucasus mythology, I came to that conclusion.

I believe a lot of slavic warrior culture like the serbian/polish hussars, cossacks etc have obvious scytho-sarmatian influence especially the horsemen and their dress etc.

Goga
16-08-11, 07:23
I think a lot of people put too much emphasis on syllables like ser, sar, ras etc a lot of it could be just wishful thinking. I do believe that all slavs are a hybrid people made up of scythian, sarmatian, cimmerian, greek bosporus and indigenous balkan peoples (possibly illyrian or pre illyrian vinca). I think y dna hap I is indigenous to the balkans and it migrated to the steppes where it mixed with scythian and sarmatian peoples of the steppes. Serbs and Croats kept their earlier Alan tribal names, possibly veneti, antes etc are earlier tribal names as well. In Iranian theories of yugoslavs you always hear about slavicization as if they are not slavs, i think that's wrong, yes there was slavicization but it was the melding of Hap I balkan people moving towards the steppes and the aryan hap R1a and R1b peoples already there that created slavs.
I also believe germanics to be a hybrid people of scythian, celtic and old european (hap I) as well.
I believe serbs and croats were originally a mix of R1a and I2 but R1a predominantly, then mixing with balkan inhabitants they absorbed even more I2 and other greco-balkan haplogroups. I heard somewhere lusatian serbs (sorbs,wends) are over 70% R1a, I cannot remember the source of that though.

i believe that the Alans along with pother sarmatians were R1a dominant and that the G2a in Ossetians comes from the caucasus inhabitants they absorbed. I'd like to see an autosomal chart of Ossetians as I believe it will show them to be far closer to slavs then y-dna shows. Ossetian history talks about them being wiped out by Tamerlane, this could have been mostly men dying fighting while the women and children got away, the majority of women possibly found husbands of neighboring caucuses tribes that were able to speak there language, this would be a big change in y-dna towards a typical caucasus direction if it were true. Their folklore/mythology is like other caucasus tribes as well (nart sagas) it is not aryan like the armenian paganism or slavic paganism etc.

I believe a lot of slavic warrior culture like the serbian/polish hussars, cossacks etc have obvious scytho-sarmatian influence especially the horsemen and their dress etc.
I do agree with you about everything on Serbs, but Armenians and Slavs are NOT and were never Aryan. I don't know in which Gods they believed, but maybe they borrowed them from the small minority of Aryan tribes which they integrated into their ethnicity / society.

Ossetians are not Slavic, but Iranic (Aryan) folks. Their DNA is Iranic and they speak an East Iranic language.

Goga
16-08-11, 08:09
I think that Serbs are mostly native to their homeland (I2a). In the ancient times they mixed with the Greeks (E & J2) and the Neolithic farmers. Because they're a member of the European family they also mixed a little bit with the Celto-Germanic tribes (R1b, R1a and I1) from the west & north and later they mixed a little bit with the Slavic tribes (I2a & R1a) from the east and from these Slavic tribes they got their language.

zanipolo
16-08-11, 08:25
I think that Serbs are mostly native to their homeland (I2a). In the ancient times they mixed with the Greeks (E & J2) and the Neolithic farmers. Because they're a member of the European family they also mixed a little bit with the Celto-Germanic tribes (R1b, R1a and I1) from the west & north and later they mixed a little bit with the Slavic tribes (I2a & R1a) from the east and from these Slavic tribes they got their language.

So, they where ??? dacians?, bulgars , thracians?

The first time they where called Serbians ( actually Servians) was IIRC 800AD

Milovan
16-08-11, 11:51
they were called sarbans before they reached the balkans and before slavs came to be, sarbans was an Alan tribe. if you hear the iranian croat theory it is the same they were chroates (croats) and haravati (hrvat). I'm sure most people have already heard that before. the sarmatian tribes (Alans were sarmatians) absorbed the scythians, the scythians absorbed some cimmerian before them in the steppe and there was a migration of I2a2 to what is now ukraine that was also absorbed, when the I2a2 people mixed with the steppe peoples slavs were created as a result. the polish also claim sarmatian descent. russians claim scythian descent.
also montes serorum was the old name for the carpathians in latin (serb mountains) those were the eastern serbs, the western serbs are the wends (sorbs) of germany. like I said there was slavs in modern day romania before romanians moved there. serbs came to the balkan in the 6th century, the slavic migration brought serbs to the balkans. from there they absorbed the local population of illyrians, triballi, and many others.

bulgars came to the balkans later and absorbed slavs, romanized thracians etc.
this is the accepted theories, the sarmatian one has less credibility but is the most accepted theory of serb and croat origins. Osprey publishing among many other book publishers stand by serb and croat being Alan tribal names.

when I say the word "Aryan" that means Indo-European, IE is the politically correct term for it, they never called themselves Indo-Europeans, they called themselves Aryans (R1a and R1b peoples). celts, germans, slavs, greeks, romans, persians, indo-aryans, scythians, sarmatians, tocharians, thracians, hittites and many others were Aryans. Everyone on this forum is an Aryan speaker because you are reading and writing in english.

Milovan
16-08-11, 13:31
So, they where ??? dacians?, bulgars , thracians?

The first time they where called Serbians ( actually Servians) was IIRC 800AD

sorry dude but you're wrong, serbs were mentioned earlier in the balkans. earliest as slavs from the migration but afterwards in 649 by Constantine III. this is from wikipedia, not that they are the end all be all source but my point is this widely accepted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs

The Serbs are a Slavic people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_people), specifically of the South Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs) subgroup, which has its origins in the 6th and 7th century communities developed in Southeastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Europe) (see Great Migration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_migration_of_the_Slavs)). Slav raids on Eastern Roman territory are mentioned in 518, and by the 580s they had conquered large areas referred to as Sclavinia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclavinia) (transl. Slavdom, from Sklavenoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sklavenoi) - Σκλαυηνοι, the early South Slavic tribe which is eponymous to the current ethnic and linguistic Indo-European people).[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs#cite_note-SLAVY-34) In 649, Constantine III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_III_%28Byzantine_emperor%29) relocates conquered Slavs "from the Vardar" to Gordoservon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordoservon) (Serb habitat). Among communities part in the Serb ethnogenesis are the Romanized Paleo-Balkan tribes of Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), Thracians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians) and Dacians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians), Celts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts), Greek colonies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonies) and Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome).
In 822, the Serbs are mentioned as "inhabiting the larger part of Dalmatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia)" (Serbian lands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_lands)), and Emperor Constantine VII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_VII) (r. 913–959) writes in his work "Administration of the Empire"[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs#cite_note-DAI-35) (De Administrando Imperio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Administrando_Imperio)) about the Serbs, mentioning the White Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbs) that "migrated from Βοϊκι" and formed a principality, as well as an early chronological list of Serbian monarchs starting from the 7th century. The Serbs subsequently developed a Byzantine-Slavic culture, like the neighbouring Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians) (who derive their ethnonym from the Turkic Bulgars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars), founders of their nation). The establishment of Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) as state-religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion) took place around 869 AD, during the rule of Emperor Basil I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_I) (r. 867–886). The Serbian Orthodox Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Orthodox_Church) was established in 1219. By the time of the Serbian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Empire), the Serbo-Byzantine cultural sphere had besides the initial territories much of the Macedonia region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_region) and Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29).


notice in 649 Constantine mentions serbs need to be relocated, meaning they were already there for sometime probably causing trouble at that point in time hence the relocation.
they were in the balkans roughly 100 years prior to that possibly wandering like nomads before settling certain areas. serbs were in the balkans before bulgarians.

also if you've ever heard the "unknown archont" story
heres more wikipedia

The Slavs invaded Balkans during Justinian I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I) rule (527–565), when eventually up to 100,000 Slavs raided Thessalonica (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thessalonica). The Western Balkans was settled with "Sclaveni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclaveni)", the east with Antes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antes_people).[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs#cite_note-Hupchick.2C_Dennis_P._2004-61) Archaeological evidence in Serbia and Macedonia conclude that the White Serbs may have reached the Balkans earlier, between 550-600, as much findings; fibulae and pottery found at Roman forts point at Serb characteristics.[63] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs#cite_note-62) and thus could have been a fraction of the early invading Slavs who upon organizing in their refuge of the Dinaric region, formed the ethnogenesis of Serbs and were pardoned by the Byzantine Empire after acknowledging their suzerainty.
According to Byzantine tradition (De Administrando Imperio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Administrando_Imperio), by Porphyrogenitus); The Serbs are recorded in the Byzantine Empire; Balkans with the arrival of the Unknown Archont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unknown_Archont) and his part of the Serb tribe. The White Serbs came from White Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia), situated in present day western Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland), led by this archont who took half of the people after the death of his father, who was a King. The first Serb settlement in the Balkans took place between 610 and 626 after being sent for by the Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine) Emperor Heraclius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heraclius) to secure the Byzantine frontier from the problematic Avars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Avars). They lived briefly in Servia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Servia), in the province of Thessalonica where they were settled, but soon decided to return to their homeland, however on their way back, near the Danube, they requested the land of Western Balkans to settle in through the military governor at Belgrade.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Migration_of_Serbs.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c3/Migration_of_Serbs.png

zanipolo
16-08-11, 13:39
sorry dude but you're wrong, serbs were mentioned earlier in the balkans. earliest as slavs from the migration but afterwards in 649 by Constantine III. this is from wikipedia, not that they are the end all be all source but my point is this widely accepted.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs

The Serbs are a Slavic people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_people), specifically of the South Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs) subgroup, which has its origins in the 6th and 7th century communities developed in Southeastern Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southeastern_Europe) (see Great Migration (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_migration_of_the_Slavs)). Slav raids on Eastern Roman territory are mentioned in 518, and by the 580s they had conquered large areas referred to as Sclavinia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sclavinia) (transl. Slavdom, from Sklavenoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sklavenoi) - Σκλαυηνοι, the early South Slavic tribe which is eponymous to the current ethnic and linguistic Indo-European people).[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs#cite_note-SLAVY-34) In 649, Constantine III (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_III_%28Byzantine_emperor%29) relocates conquered Slavs "from the Vardar" to Gordoservon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordoservon) (Serb habitat). Among communities part in the Serb ethnogenesis are the Romanized Paleo-Balkan tribes of Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians), Thracians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracians) and Dacians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacians), Celts (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celts), Greek colonies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_colonies) and Romans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Rome).
In 822, the Serbs are mentioned as "inhabiting the larger part of Dalmatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia)" (Serbian lands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_lands)), and Emperor Constantine VII (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constantine_VII) (r. 913–959) writes in his work "Administration of the Empire"[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs#cite_note-DAI-35) (De Administrando Imperio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_Administrando_Imperio)) about the Serbs, mentioning the White Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbs) that "migrated from Βοϊκι" and formed a principality, as well as an early chronological list of Serbian monarchs starting from the 7th century. The Serbs subsequently developed a Byzantine-Slavic culture, like the neighbouring Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians) (who derive their ethnonym from the Turkic Bulgars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgars), founders of their nation). The establishment of Christianity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity) as state-religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion) took place around 869 AD, during the rule of Emperor Basil I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basil_I) (r. 867–886). The Serbian Orthodox Church (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Orthodox_Church) was established in 1219. By the time of the Serbian Empire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_Empire), the Serbo-Byzantine cultural sphere had besides the initial territories much of the Macedonia region (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_region) and Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29).


notice in 649 Constantine mentions serbs need to be relocated, meaning they were already there for sometime probably causing trouble at that point in time hence the relocation.
they were in the balkans roughly 100 years prior to that possibly wandering like nomads before settling certain areas.

Thanks for post # 138 and 139..............but I was inquiring about serbians in the time of the iron-age

Taranis
16-08-11, 13:43
when I say the word "Aryan" that means Indo-European, IE is the politically correct term for it, they never called themselves Indo-Europeans, they called themselves Aryans (R1a and R1b peoples). celts, germans, slavs, greeks, romans, persians, indo-aryans, scythians, sarmatians, tocharians, thracians, hittites and many others were Aryans. Everyone on this forum is an Aryan speaker because you are reading and writing in english.

Sorry, no. The usage of the term "Aryan" as "Indo-European" is from the 19th century. It has little to do with political correctness that the term because nowadays, at least in the linguistic context, the term "Aryan" just refers to either the Indo-Iranic languages or just the Iranic languages alone.

Milovan
16-08-11, 13:52
there was more then one wave of serbs into the balkans both from white/western serbia in the 7th century(unknown archont first serbian dynasty claimed descent from him) and eastern serbia when they came over the carpathians "montes serorum" in the first slavic invasion 6th century.

the word white in old slavic also means western, hence belarus= white russia= western russia
white serbia= western serbia

Milovan
16-08-11, 14:01
Sorry, no. The usage of the term "Aryan" as "Indo-European" is from the 19th century. It has little to do with political correctness that the term because nowadays, at least in the linguistic context, the term "Aryan" just refers to either the Indo-Iranic languages or just the Iranic languages alone.

they commonly use the term more then the west these days because of political correctness, there is no world war 2 hitler stigma over there so they have no reason to be ashamed of the name of their ancestors.
sarmatians and scythians whom both slavs and germanic peoples have partial descent (among many other groups) were Iranian speakers. Ireland's name derives from Eire a word derived directly from the word Aryan, celts in Ireland obviously called themselves Aryans. wish i could remember the source for that but I can't I heard it a long time ago.

Bodin
16-08-11, 16:29
Do you have proof that Serbians are sarmatians ?. Since Goths resided on the black sea area for 250 years before the invasion of Roman empire and that the Germanic bastanae tribe was there before the Goths, seems to indicate that the sarmatians and syctians are further East. maybe between the black and caspanian seas
I believe I do , I am not 100% convinced , thats why I need to cheeck my teories sharing knowledge with others , so thank you for asking .:good_job:1) Like I writed in previous post Pliny the Elder mentions Sarmatian tribes Serboi and Haruatoi , those names are same as Serbs and Croats . 2) I2a2 spreading map is the same as the map of moving of Sarmatians as I explained in previous post . 3) Serbs have very small procentage of Slavic R1a1a1a7 ( comon ancestor before about 3.500 years ) , and most of 15% of Serbian is much older ( comon ancestor before 11.000 years ) , and R1a is higher in Voyvodina then in the rest of Serbia . In Croatia there is more R1a because Slavonia is settled by Slavs who were moved here by Avars to serve as they border guards -Krajišnici. In Bosnia is greater diversity of R1a genes in Europe that can mean only there was several waves of R1a or that R1a is originated on Balkan - it is not Slavic 4) I allready mentioned title of župan and ban which are Iranian R1a 5) Burrial customs : Slavs use to burn they deads and then buried they ashes with no artefacts , Sarmatians use to buried whole body , with a lot of artefacts , like it is in the Banat where they lived during Avar Khaganate , Croatians had same burial practises , Serbians use to burn them deads and put ashes in special builded cotages of dried grass and wood ,which is simillar to burial customs of Scythians like portraed in Herodotus , only Scythians use to balm they deads and not to burn them. 5) Mythology : In Serb , Croat and Bulgarian mythology there is creature called i zmaj , and it is not same like Slavic zmei which is more like Serbian aždaha ( also Iranian word, aži are giant sneakelike creatures , and až Dahan is one of them ) - have multiple heds , and are evil . On the other hand Serbian zmaj is smaller ( up to 2 m ) ,sneakelike , but it can take of the scales and become a man , it is not evil unless it is offended . That creature is same like Chinese
dragon which is bringing god fortune and helping humans , it is also very potent - have intercourse with womans and meers , later they born heroes ( Miloš Obilić , Zmaj Ognjeni Vuk ,... ) and god horses ( Jabučilo ) . Also there is same legend that Chinese dragon and Serbian zmaj are becomed of very old carp . So Serbians , Croats , Bulgarians use to have contacts with China like Sarmatians
You say that Goths comed on Black see before invasion to Rome ,and that is true but Goths could not carry I2a2 - there is no in Gotalanda in Sweden where they come from . But Goths made they mark on Serbs and Croats genes - I1 ( 7% both) is probably mostly Gothic ,some of it is Saxon ( Sasi -miners) , and some from mercenaries of Midle ages kings , some of R1a is also Gothic - it is strong in Gotalanda.

Bodin
16-08-11, 16:41
Also you said that Sarmatians use to live in betweh stean Caspian and Black sea , that is true but during V century BC , afterwards they moved in north stepes of the Black sea , and then on west (there was Sarmatians in Banat , Alans moved with Vandals in Spain and Africa , Sarmatians in today Romania fight the Rome on the Marcomanic side during Marcoman wars , and in III and IV century). Bastarnae : they origin is not certain , they name is cognate to word bastard and they were mixed , even they culture is half German , half Sarmatian

Milovan
16-08-11, 17:22
Also you said that Sarmatians use to live in between the Caspian and Black sea , that is true but during V century BC , afterwards they moved in north stepes of the Black sea , and then on west

depends on what maps you look at, scythians were on both sides of the caspian during certain times, I saw one map where scythians were west of the caspian and sarmatians were east of the caspian. the sarmatians obviously moved west into scythian territory from there. before east of the caspian was considered sarmatian territory it was scythian territory which proves herodotus theory that sarmatians descend from scythians (at least partially)

yes you were right serboi, not sarban thats the pashtun tribe I think, I had the names confused.

Bodin
16-08-11, 17:45
What are you talking about?

None of the areas that are high in I2a2 were invaded by the Slavs, it was probably a last refuge from slavs and are known hotspots of "Illyria" culture, which is found around the same time in places near Stolac, Hercegovina.

1) Geographic barriers make it difficult for Dinaric Balkans to become slavicised. Dinaric Balkans shows high levels of I2a2, almost no R1a.

2) Non Dinaric areas of the Balkans show high levels of R1a admixture, ie. Slavonia, Croatia.

3) A lack of R1a in dinaric areas of the balkans infers that very little slav admixture, since carriers were most definitely a mixture of haplogroups, one being R1a.

So, to claim I2a2 Slavic is idiotic. There's various mutations within I2a2 that now we differentiate between dinaric north, south and eastern european dinaric (russian).

We don't consider ourselves Slavs, and stay away from our people.
I2a2 cant be Illyrian because , Mesapic tribes in Italy were Illyrians that crosed Adriatic sea , they even speaked same languague , and there is no I2a2 in Mesapic aereas. Also newcomers -Serbs and Croats have more I2a2 then old Albanians , Romanians and Greeks.
I2a2 is not Slavic neather but Sarmatian , as I explained before it spread matches spread of Sarmatian moves , it is present in Slavic lands because Sarmatians use to live there and rule protoslavic nations ( remember Jordanes say that name Slav is new one , and they use to call themselves differently) . They also use to marry and to sleep with Slavic womans ( read Herodotus report about very free sexual life of Sarmatians ) , so when Slavs were created as new nation some of them were I2a2 , so I2a2 is partially Slavic .
Also about name of Serbs and Siberia , if you won to se do two words have simillar roots just remove vocals SRB and SBR is not the same , Siberia is named after Turkic Sabirs , and it means "land of dreams" on Tatar languague.
Lot of Indoeuropean nations have the name made of Sora ( sanskrit: sky , old, wise , gard ,... ) , it not necesarly mean that they are conected with Serbs

Milovan
16-08-11, 18:02
I2a2 cant be Illyrian because , Mesapic tribes in Italy were Illyrians that crosed Adriatic sea , they even speaked same languague , and there is no I2a2 in Mesapic aereas. Also newcomers -Serbs and Croats have more I2a2 then old Albanians , Romanians and Greeks.
I2a2 is not Slavic neather but Sarmatian , as I explained before it spread matches spread of Sarmatian moves , it is present in Slavic lands because Sarmatians use to live there and rule protoslavic nations ( remember Jordanes say that name Slav is new one , and they use to call themselves differently) . They also use to marry and to sleep with Slavic womans ( read Herodotus report about very free sexual life of Sarmatians ) , so when Slavs were created as new nation some of them were I2a2 , so I2a2 is partially Slavic .
Also about name of Serbs and Siberia , if you won to se do two words have simillar roots just remove vocals SRB and SBR is not the same , Siberia is named after Turkic Sabirs , and it means "land of dreams" on Tatar languague.
Lot of Indoeuropean nations have the name made of Sora ( sanskrit: sky , old, wise , gard ,... ) , it not necesarly mean that they are conected with Serbs

theres no proof I2a2 is sarmatian I believe it is proto-illyrian/proto balkan and some of them moved east to the steppes to mix with the steppe scytho-sarmatian people and became slavs from this mixing, then the balto-slavic union from there.
yes I2a2 is present in all slav nations but majority R1a except those that migrated to the balkans later on (the I2a2 homeland) where I2a2 became more prevalent then R1a due to absorbing the locals. yes not every word with an "S" and an "R" in it mean serb, thats wishful thinking.
if I2a2 is sarmatian why isn't there any in asia between the caspian and the altai? the sarmatians were there and slavs weren't, those turkicized peoples are R1a heavy from scytho-sarmatian blood. how much I2a2 is in central asia?

bulgaria and greece were never illyria, the dinaric alps was
illyrian albanian theories I've heard say this too then the illyrians took epirus
yugoslavia region was only inhabited by illyrians and vinca before roman empire
epirus was epirus (greek) for a long time before illyrians came there
the I2a2 homeland is illyria

also people say hap I is indigenous to europe
meaning it did not come from asia like the sarmatians did
show me hap I or I2a2 originating in asia then I'll believe it

Bodin
16-08-11, 18:12
Not for Sprinkles who cannot develop discussion in the accepted way, I would like to put some short summarized information about the settlement of the Balkans, which could help for the interpretation of the facts, related to haplogroups. If something is not the facts taken from academic editions, it is indicated as my opinion. I'd like to discuss only scientifically accepted facts or scientifically based suggestions under internationally accepted rules of equity and tolerance.

--- The oldest known tribes in the Balkans are Dacians, Tracians, Albanians and Illyrians. However, it is not clear are they autochthonous or they were newcomers at that period of time. The point is that their languages were Indo-European (IE), and to get these languages (about 4000 years ago), they had to meet IE people. They could meet them somewhere else and populate the Balkans after this, or they could meet them in the Balkan. The latter has any no archeological evidence. Do they brought I2a groups to the Balkans or they met it here and assimilated? For me, the idea that some tribes from other place (Anatolia?) invaded the Balkans and Indo-Europeanized the autochthonous population seems the most adequate. The languages disappeared yet during the time of Roman Empire.
--- 2500 years ago - Celtic Invasion. Celts reached the Greece and even Anatolia, but mostly they stayed in the northern, west-northern and eastern parts of the Balkans. They were first who built the City of Belgrade. Celts were one of the founders of the modern country Romania. They probably had mostly R1b haplogroup.
--- 4th century AC - Gothic invasion. They had large latifundia there and stayed for a long time. In some places, service in Gothic languages in churches was recorded as late as in 9th century. The Goths could be enriched in R1a groups by the time of invasion, as they previously lived very close to Slavs at the territories of the modern Ukraine and Russia.
--- Gepids. They were also German people. They also could have some R1a haplogroups, as Slavs were their neighbors .
These two Germanic groups could be actually responsible for that subclade of I2a, which was found at the territory of Germany and was ascribes to White Serbs.
---5th century - Raids of Huns. Huns are of unknown origin; Chinese, Turkish and Iranian origin was suggested. Who knows which haplogroups they brought?
--- 5-7th Centuries - Avars raids. Again the origin is unknown, probably of mixed origins.
The last two groups were characterized by extreme brutality, especially Avars. Both of them disappeared without leaving defined ethnic groups after them, but they could leave their haplogroups just because they raped Slavic and Balkan women.
--- Here we are coming closely to Slavs, since it is believed that Avars brought Slavs with them. It looks that originally Avars forced some Slavic tribes which were on their way from the East to go with them, to populate Pannonia with its fertile lands and to supply Avars with agricultural products. Slavs also suffered a lot from Avar’s brutality. It looks that in the beginning , Slavs were not skilled in war, but later they got this experience and contributed to Avar’s raids. Later, they went to this practice themselves. Surprisingly, they were very skilled seafarer s and invaded into Greek areas from the sea.
Before final colonization of the Balkans, they stayed in Pannonia for 1-1.5 century (#-5 generations). During this time, they could be enriched with I2a haplogroup, because they captivated Balkan people during their raids, the whole families, first forced them to work for them, but later allowed them to live free between them. Slavicization of the Balkans is the fact commonly accepted by the historic science.


8 centuries after, a big part of the Balkans has got under the Ottoman Empire rule. This could bring some haplogroups from Turkey into Slav Balkan population. In most parts of Ottoman Europe, the Christian nobility was removed and replaced by a foreign mostly Turkish sometimes Albanian). They had so called “Right of the first night” over Slav population. This genetic influence was less in Bosnia and Hercegovina, because there larger numberof people converted to Islam, which protected them from such type of treatment.

A lot of things about that could be read in Wiki. I am not allowed to put here addresses.

So, we can see that the history of the Balkans can explain the variety of haplogroups found there. I believe that based on the modern haplogroups, no final conclusion may be done about the prehistorical haplogroups in this region (actually, not in Europe, in general). If you are interested in more details please let me know.



It is also a mistake to relate one haplogroup to one nation, whichever this haplogroup is. It could be that in prehistoric time, the tribes had less diversity in haplogroups. But even measurement in 2-5 years old groves in Europe and Asia already show some admixture. Especially now, after all this migrations, all the nations have mixed haplogroups, which reflects their history.
You numbered almoust all setllement waves , but you forgot to say that Slavs populated Balkan during the rule of emperor Focas ( Byzantine 602-610 ) from Vlachia , they for shore setled in Thracia , Macedonia and Hellas as far as Pelopones , but it seems that Bosnia, Herzegovina and Dalmatia is populated by Avars not Slavs , Avars bringed Slavs in Slovenai- Caranthania to serve as borderguards-krajišnici , and Slavs in Slavonia . You forget about most important setlling wave for this discusion - setlling of Serbs and Croats during rule of emperor Heracleos ( 610-641) , and after the siege of Constantinopolis 626 . Serbs and Croats were called by
emperor to protect empire from Slavs and Avars .

Bodin
16-08-11, 20:06
depends on what maps you look at, scythians were on both sides of the caspian during certain times, I saw one map where scythians were west of the caspian and sarmatians were east of the caspian. the sarmatians obviously moved west into scythian territory from there. before east of the caspian was considered sarmatian territory it was scythian territory which proves herodotus theory that sarmatians descend from scythians (at least partially)

yes you were right serboi, not sarban thats the pashtun tribe I think, I had the names confused.
Acording to Herodotus ( the most reliable story , others being they are descendants of Herakleos and woman-sneak) , Scythians use to live betwen Caspian and Aral sea , and then come Masagets and push them west , so Scythians conquered Cimmerian land pushing Cimmerians in Asia Minor . Former Cimmerian land was called Scythia after Scythians , and it was allmoust perfect square with sides long 20 days of walk , laying on Black sea shore. Herodotus say that Sarmatians are descendants of Scythians and one sheep of Amazon wariors , regarding there is no proff that Amazons ever egzisted , I believe more in Diodorus version of Sarmatian origin: During the Scythian rule in Asia ( VII century BC) they brought parts of Medians north of Caucasus , that Medians are called Sarmatians or Solar Medes . Kurds are partualy descendants of Medians , and they have 25% I2a2-Din . About end of I century and begining of II century Saramatians previosly Scythian vasals conquered Scythia and moved there -south Ukraine, and united themselves with Alans during III century . Alans were tribal union of Masagetes and Tisagetes . Alan means "one that live in steppes " , Alans speak same Iranian languague like Sarmatians , and similar to Scythian ( Herodotus say that Saramatians speak spoiled Scythian - similar but somehow diferent ) . During I century Sarmatians helping Dacians in batle against Rome . When Rome lived Dacia Sarmatians moved in especialy in Banat where were found lots of Sarmatian artefacts and graves , they lived there even during Avar khaganate . Acordin to Tacitus Vandals were olso Sarmatian , there is strong I2a2 in Sardinia - settled by mixed Alans and Vandals from Spain and Africa - there is some I2a2 in North Africa especially Lybia . In IV century Gots come down from Vistula and conquered center of Sarmatian state on Black sea separating Sarmatians in two halfs , one living on north of Caucasus , and second living in Europe in todays Moldavia , Romania , Banat and north to Baltic - Vandals.

Bodin
16-08-11, 20:42
theres no proof I2a2 is sarmatian I believe it is proto-illyrian/proto balkan and some of them moved east to the steppes to mix with the steppe scytho-sarmatian people and became slavs from this mixing, then the balto-slavic union from there.
yes I2a2 is present in all slav nations but majority R1a except those that migrated to the balkans later on (the I2a2 homeland) where I2a2 became more prevalent then R1a due to absorbing the locals. yes not every word with an "S" and an "R" in it mean serb, thats wishful thinking.
if I2a2 is sarmatian why isn't there any in asia between the caspian and the altai? the sarmatians were there and slavs weren't, those turkicized peoples are R1a heavy from scytho-sarmatian blood. how much I2a2 is in central asia?

bulgaria and greece were never illyria, the dinaric alps was
illyrian albanian theories I've heard say this too then the illyrians took epirus
yugoslavia region was only inhabited by illyrians and vinca before roman empire
epirus was epirus (greek) for a long time before illyrians came there
the I2a2 homeland is illyria

also people say hap I is indigenous to europe
meaning it did not come from asia like the sarmatians did
show me hap I or I2a2 originating in asia then I'll believe it
I2a2-din is to young (couple thousand of years ) to be on Balkans since Mezolite . There was heavy anihilation of ProtoBalkans during Hunic and Avar/Slavic raides so they cant influence todays genetics with more than70% ( I2a2, G2a , J1, J2 , E1b1 ,L, T,R1b, some of R1a in Serbia ) . Herzegovina is place where the Serbs and Croatians are first settled its not logical that there is prevailing Illyrian -I2a2 gen , unless its not Illyrian . Mesapi in Italy are cousins of Illyrians , why dont they have I2a2 ?
Only Paleolitic Europe group could be R1b ( some forms of it ) , because only nation that not speak Indoeuropean in Europe are Basqui (Esqudi) and they are more than 90% R1b .There is some older I2 on Balkans and it is I2*B present in Armenia , Asia Minor , Creete(9%) and Balkans especially Greece.
I am not shore there is no any I2a2 in betwen Caspian and Aral sea , I would check it out . But there is heavy % of R1a there and its not Slavic but Turcish from invading Mongolian and Turcic tribes since Hun invasion in IV century to Uzbeki invasion in XVI century and knowing Mongolians they wouldnt left too many indigenous population . There is certain I2a2 in Xingyang ( northwest China ) , and in Tadjikistan ( Pamir aeria ) . Betwen Caspian and Aral sea were Alans and they mostly moved with Vandas , Yazigi in Banat and Roxolani in todays Mordvinia.
Also there is not any prove there was moving of Daco-Thracians or Illyrians or any other Balkans in steppes( there wouldnt be any diference betwean Illyrians , Panonians and Tracians because after rebelion 6-9AD Roman moved and mixed parts of Illyrians , Panonians , Scordisci, and Tracians and formed new artificial tribes ) , but there is tons of proofs of Sarmatian moving to west.

Bodin
16-08-11, 20:49
And I forgot to ask if the Bulgaria and Greece were never Illyrian , and Illyrians are I2a2 , why Greeks have 10% I2a2 and Bulgarians 20% . Have you ever heard of Odrisk Kingdom?

zanipolo
16-08-11, 21:35
Also you said that Sarmatians use to live in betweh stean Caspian and Black sea , that is true but during V century BC , afterwards they moved in north stepes of the Black sea , and then on west (there was Sarmatians in Banat , Alans moved with Vandals in Spain and Africa , Sarmatians in today Romania fight the Rome on the Marcomanic side during Marcoman wars , and in III and IV century). Bastarnae : they origin is not certain , they name is cognate to word bastard and they were mixed , even they culture is half German , half Sarmatian

Thanks, thats all I was interested in - iron age.

So clearly the slavs did not carry I2a2 but got it from the assimilation of balkan people in the dark ages

zanipolo
16-08-11, 21:53
theres no proof I2a2 is sarmatian I believe it is proto-illyrian/proto balkan and some of them moved east to the steppes to mix with the steppe scytho-sarmatian people and became slavs from this mixing, then the balto-slavic union from there.
yes I2a2 is present in all slav nations but majority R1a except those that migrated to the balkans later on (the I2a2 homeland) where I2a2 became more prevalent then R1a due to absorbing the locals. yes not every word with an "S" and an "R" in it mean serb, thats wishful thinking.
if I2a2 is sarmatian why isn't there any in asia between the caspian and the altai? the sarmatians were there and slavs weren't, those turkicized peoples are R1a heavy from scytho-sarmatian blood. how much I2a2 is in central asia?

bulgaria and greece were never illyria, the dinaric alps was
illyrian albanian theories I've heard say this too then the illyrians took epirus
yugoslavia region was only inhabited by illyrians and vinca before roman empire
epirus was epirus (greek) for a long time before illyrians came there
the I2a2 homeland is illyria

also people say hap I is indigenous to europe
meaning it did not come from asia like the sarmatians did
show me hap I or I2a2 originating in asia then I'll believe it

There are linguistic people who claim there is a Q-illyrian group from Dalmatia northwards and a P-Illyrian group from Montenegro southwards. While I am unsure about this. Greek Historians say that the Q group was a celtic-illyrian mix, while the P group was dardanian-thracian mix.
Knowing that Northern Italy was gallic-ligurian up to the Carni and Taurisci tribes in Noricum, it would seem reasonable that I2a2 was present in northern Illyrcium 1000 years before any sarmatians ( or sarmatian mix ) arrived.

I2a2 could be a mix of gothic and baltic people as this is what happened over centuries of Gothic migration from Scandza/gotland into pommerain, estonian lands

Bodin
16-08-11, 22:21
Thanks, thats all I was interested in - iron age.

So clearly the slavs did not carry I2a2 but got it from the assimilation of balkan people in the dark ages .

What Slavs I was saying that SARMATIANS - Serbs and Croats bring it . Your claim is that I2a2 , E1b1 , J1 , J2 , G2a , L , T , some of R1a , R1b is all from populations before the Dark ages if I understood you corectly that means that over 80% of Serbian population are descedants of Balkans population before Dark ages , and 10% ( I1 and I2b ) is certainly Gothic . So all of reports about great raids of Huns , Avars and Sclavs are lies so as the reports of deads of hundreds of thousands and deserted Balcanic regias . Also there was big plague during the rule of emperor Justinian ( 527-565) that kiled 1/3 of empire population , maybe it walk around Balkan , I dont think so .

Bodin
16-08-11, 22:28
There are linguistic people who claim there is a Q-illyrian group from Dalmatia northwards and a P-Illyrian group from Montenegro southwards. While I am unsure about this. Greek Historians say that the Q group was a celtic-illyrian mix, while the P group was dardanian-thracian mix.
Knowing that Northern Italy was gallic-ligurian up to the Carni and Taurisci tribes in Noricum, it would seem reasonable that I2a2 was present in northern Illyrcium 1000 years before any sarmatians ( or sarmatian mix ) arrived.

I2a2 could be a mix of gothic and baltic people as this is what happened over centuries of Gothic migration from Scandza/gotland into pommerain, estonian lands
I2a2 in Italy comes from Veneti -Eneti and its lot weaker than one in Serbian and Croatian lands , and there is almoust none I2a2 in Scandinavia or Pomerania or Estonia .

zanipolo
17-08-11, 00:10
.

What Slavs I was saying that SARMATIANS - Serbs and Croats bring it . Your claim is that I2a2 , E1b1 , J1 , J2 , G2a , L , T , some of R1a , R1b is all from populations before the Dark ages if I understood you corectly that means that over 80% of Serbian population are descedants of Balkans population before Dark ages , and 10% ( I1 and I2b ) is certainly Gothic . So all of reports about great raids of Huns , Avars and Sclavs are lies so as the reports of deads of hundreds of thousands and deserted Balcanic regias . Also there was big plague during the rule of emperor Justinian ( 527-565) that kiled 1/3 of empire population , maybe it walk around Balkan , I dont think so .

I am not talking about any other marker except I2a2. I believe the Hunnic invasion brought another marker. If you believe this marker was brought from Sarmatian lands, then what was the marker in Old-yugoslavian lands ?

Bodin
17-08-11, 04:00
I am not talking about any other marker except I2a2. I believe the Hunnic invasion brought another marker. If you believe this marker was brought from Sarmatian lands, then what was the marker in Old-yugoslavian lands ?
My oppinion which dont have to be true , but I believe it is , is that there was no one marker in Old - Yugoslavian lands , but few of them : Illyrians by my oppinion were mainly E1b1b , with maybe some ancient R1a , aldo they have other markers to ( these aply to other nations so I dont going to repeat it), Thracians were mainly J haplogroup with strong E , because they had come from Asia Minor , Dacians were cousins of Thracians so they genes were very simillar , like Illyrian and Panonian (Dardans were IllyroThracian tribe who use to live in todays Kosovo and parts of Macedonia , on they aeria today there is huge amount of E1b1b and J genes and almoust no I2a2 , especially since Serbs left the aeria) Hellens ( Greeks ) had a lot of Pelazg genes which is same like Palestinian - mainly E1b1b1 and J ( Peleshets in people from see raids ) , while IndoEuropean languague was brought by R1a from stepes . Celts were mainly R1b maybe with some I . Goths that had come later bring mostly I1 genes and I2b . There was also I2*B which is strong in Crete and Armenia , she come on Balkan long time ago . G is the haplogroup of goatbriders that moved to Europe during Neolite , and it is present in all mauntin regions - see Alps, Caucasus , Apenini ,... It is not conectet to any nation , only to high mauntins. L and T comed from India probably via traders during Roman period . There was also paleolitic R1b older then Celts which is also present in Asia Minor .
And I believe Serbs and Croats bring next haplogroups : I2a2 ( highest % ) , R1a ( next % ) ,K (next % , this aply only on Serbs , Croatian K is below 1%), J2 ( next % ) , N (next % , again aply only on Serbs , Croats dont have it ) , E1b1b ( next % ) , Q ( next % , probably received from Huns ). If you think that make no sence please point out the holes in theory , I would apriceate that .

zanipolo
17-08-11, 04:55
My oppinion which dont have to be true , but I believe it is , is that there was no one marker in Old - Yugoslavian lands , but few of them : Illyrians by my oppinion were mainly E1b1b , with maybe some ancient R1a , aldo they have other markers to ( these aply to other nations so I dont going to repeat it), Thracians were mainly J haplogroup with strong E , because they had come from Asia Minor , Dacians were cousins of Thracians so they genes were very simillar , like Illyrian and Panonian (Dardans were IllyroThracian tribe who use to live in todays Kosovo and parts of Macedonia , on they aeria today there is huge amount of E1b1b and J genes and almoust no I2a2 , especially since Serbs left the aeria) Hellens ( Greeks ) had a lot of Pelazg genes which is same like Palestinian - mainly E1b1b1 and J ( Peleshets in people from see raids ) , while IndoEuropean languague was brought by R1a from stepes . Celts were mainly R1b maybe with some I . Goths that had come later bring mostly I1 genes and I2b . There was also I2*B which is strong in Crete and Armenia , she come on Balkan long time ago . G is the haplogroup of goatbriders that moved to Europe during Neolite , and it is present in all mauntin regions - see Alps, Caucasus , Apenini ,... It is not conectet to any nation , only to high mauntins. L and T comed from India probably via traders during Roman period . There was also paleolitic R1b older then Celts which is also present in Asia Minor .
And I believe Serbs and Croats bring next haplogroups : I2a2 ( highest % ) , R1a ( next % ) ,K (next % , this aply only on Serbs , Croatian K is below 1%), J2 ( next % ) , N (next % , again aply only on Serbs , Croats dont have it ) , E1b1b ( next % ) , Q ( next % , probably received from Huns ). If you think that make no sence please point out the holes in theory , I would apriceate that .


Sarmatian information
http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf

It is very strange that both the ancient greeks and slavs ( and still the opinion today) isolate the Illyrians as being only from the south with an E marker, while the northern area with its I marker is not really a "pure" illyrian one. very strange.

Bodin
17-08-11, 15:55
Sarmatian information
http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf

It is very strange that both the ancient greeks and slavs ( and still the opinion today) isolate the Illyrians as being only from the south with an E marker, while the northern area with its I marker is not really a "pure" illyrian one. very strange.
I didnt realy understood that sentence are ,you agreed with me ? Or you saying that Herzegovina is were purest Illyrians were , if that is the case I cant agreed because there have been a lot of Celtic admixture in that aeria , and today there is no R1b , also there is not a lot of J and E which ones are certainly Balkanic ( unless you think its brought up by the Huns:smile:-joke ), all that imply that ancient population in Herzegovina was almoust totaly replaced by incoming Red Croatian and few years / decades later Serbs . We should remember that was the center of Serbian settling , and if somewhere out there would be descendants of Serbs from times of movings it would be in Herzegovina , not in Kosovo or
Ras , because in time of settling Kosovo was not in Serbian state ( first time Serbs entered Kosovo was during XI century under Župan Vukan ) , and Ras was only border fortres up to IX century .

Bodin
17-08-11, 21:07
Sarmatian information
http://www.davidkfaux.org/CentralAsiaRootsofScandinavia-Y-DNAEvidence.pdf

It is very strange that both the ancient greeks and slavs ( and still the opinion today) isolate the Illyrians as being only from the south with an E marker, while the northern area with its I marker is not really a "pure" illyrian one. very strange.
Thank you for tread I spend some time riding it , and it is very good , this could also be explanation for Serbian K 3-7% , N 3% ( neighbouring populations dont have any except Hungarians ) and Q 2% . That could also explain 11000 tousand years old R1a in Bosnia - came from south Siberia . Thanks again

how yes no 2
17-08-11, 21:45
Thank you for tread I spend some time riding it , and it is very good , this could also be explanation for Serbian K 3-7% , N 3% ( neighbouring populations dont have any except Hungarians ) and Q 2% . That could also explain 11000 tousand years old R1a in Bosnia - came from south Siberia . Thanks again

how difficult is it to understand this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_%28Y-DNA%29

there is no T haplogroup in Serbia.... and there is lot of K as K includes R1 and N, but there is no paragroup K subbranch that is typical for Oceania, Timor, Philippines and East India.


there is work of Croat "scientists" that did classify into K* all those haplogroups that they didnot test for (so K* in that work means just it could be S, atypical R1, or R2, or Q, or O, or N or M or L or T )...


in fact, work of Mirabal showed that 7% of K was not T as Maciamo thought, but mostly N with some Q and L...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo
(testing done for 179 individuals from Serbia)


haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%

Serbia has 48% of haplogroup I which is in fact more than Germany...
if haplogroup I is related to people originating from Gomer (Gomerians / Cimmerians, who are also known as white-Syrians)

South Slavs are in fact genetically more Germanic than Germans.... what was original language of I2a Gomer/cimmerian/white Syrian/ Serian/Zeruiani/Zorjani/Doriani/white Sart/ Scordisci/ Sherdana/ Kurds/ white Serbs/Serbs/ Sarbans/Sirakes/Serres people is hard to say... I would suggest PIE....

Taranis
17-08-11, 21:52
they commonly use the term more then the west these days because of political correctness, there is no world war 2 hitler stigma over there so they have no reason to be ashamed of the name of their ancestors.

As I said, this has nothing to do with political correctness. The usage of the term "Aryan" as "Indo-European" already had fallen ousage by the early 20th century in linguistic circles. As I said, in modern linguistic usage, "Aryan" only refers to the Iranic languages.


sarmatians and scythians whom both slavs and germanic peoples have partial descent (among many other groups) were Iranian speakers.

The only ones who historically, ever refered to themselves as "Aryans" were the Persians, in particular the Sassanid Empire refered to itself as the "Aryan Empire".


Ireland's name derives from Eire a word derived directly from the word Aryan, celts in Ireland obviously called themselves Aryans. wish i could remember the source for that but I can't I heard it a long time ago.

Well, I am pretty sure that this is complete nonsense. The modern word "Eire" is related with the ancient names "Ierne" and "Ivernia" which were recorded by the Greeks (the latter which was rendered into Latin as "Hibernia").

Bodin
17-08-11, 22:18
how difficult is it to understand this?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_K_%28Y-DNA%29

there is no T haplogroup in Serbia.... and there is lot of K as K includes R1 and N, but there is no paragroup K subbranch that is typical for Oceania, Timor, Philippines and East India.


there is work of Croat "scientists" that did classify into K* all those haplogroups that they didnot test for (so K* in that work means just it could be S, atypical R1, or R2, or Q, or O, or N or M or L or T )...


in fact, work of Mirabal showed that 7% of K was not T as Maciamo thought, but mostly N with some Q and L...

http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo
(testing done for 179 individuals from Serbia)


haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%

Serbia has 48% of haplogroup I which is in fact more than Germany...
if haplogroup I is related to people originating from Gomer (Gomerians / Cimmerians, who are also known as white-Syrians)

South Slavs are in fact genetically more Germanic than Germans.... what was original language of I2a Gomer/cimmerian/white Syrian/ Serian/Zeruiani/Zorjani/Doriani/white Sart/ Scordisci/ Sherdana/ Kurds/ white Serbs/Serbs/ Sarbans/Sirakes/Serres people is hard to say... I would suggest PIE....
I believe i read some researches that shows 3% of K2 in Serbia , in some aerias up to 7% , and 1,5% K2 in Macedonia .Maybe its wrong . " South Slavs " could not ever be more Germanic of Germans because specific mix of I1a,I2b , R1b1c9 (S28) , and R1a would make them Germanic and " South Slavs" are mostly I2a2-Din mixed with E1b1b and J2 with very diverse R1a and under 10% of I1a and I2b which is only Germans genes in them - probably from Gots and Saxons- Sasi miners. Also you cant realy conect so manny nations only by simillarity of names . Sora is oftenly used sanskrit word meaning sky , down , wise , guardian , shepard , old ,... Was Zaratustra ( Zoroaster ) Serbian only because his name means " morning/heavenly star " ? But I think you are wright about conection betwen Serbs and Kurds , and Siraci or Serboi are Serbs , only they were Sarmatians not Cimmerians who use to live north of Black see not north of Caucasus were Siraces/ Serboi were recorded.

Goga
18-08-11, 00:02
With all due respect but I truly believe that Serbs are genuine native Europeans. They’re even more native to Europe than the most Europeans even more than Scandinavians!

Such sensational stories about Sarmatians and Cimmerians this and that are very exciting. It's like I'm reading a very exciting detective novel of Hammett or Chandler. But it is still all fiction.

Stuff like this I come across only in the extremist anti-Semitic pan-Iranian sites, financed by the Iranian extremist mullahs! This is not an accusation or an insult toward anybody, I'm only a little bit too honest (I'm a little bit drunk now).

Btw, I (as a Kurd) like the idea that Serbs and Kurds are somehow related to each other. It would be great if it was true. I'm a very open-minded person but somehow this hypothesis doesn't make any sense in my mind.

Milovan
18-08-11, 01:16
As I said, this has nothing to do with political correctness. The usage of the term "Aryan" as "Indo-European" already had fallen ousage by the early 20th century in linguistic circles. As I said, in modern linguistic usage, "Aryan" only refers to the Iranic languages.



The only ones who historically, ever refered to themselves as "Aryans" were the Persians, in particular the Sassanid Empire refered to itself as the "Aryan Empire".



Well, I am pretty sure that this is complete nonsense. The modern word "Eire" is related with the ancient names "Ierne" and "Ivernia" which were recorded by the Greeks (the latter which was rendered into Latin as "Hibernia").

yes early 20th century the word IE was invented, its a modern word which is the same exact thing as the old word for it, the old word is aryan. are you like the language police trying to tell people how to talk and what words to use? I'm not going to change how I talk to please others.
you are wrong about persians being the only ones to use the word historically, india, afghanistan, kurds, armenians and many others have always used the word aryan and still do to this day. europe used it frequently all the way up until after world war 2 because of political correctness because of hitler stigma attached to it.
I despise poltical correctness and I am not ashamed of my ancestors.

now you're going to tell me ancient greeks were in ireland and named them eire
you didn't put your source for that either by the way
whether you like it or not celts were aryans, you can see aryan symbols like the swastika and triskele everywhere they went, you also see it in ancient rome, greece, anatolia, iran, india and everywhere else aryan people went.

aside from trying to tell me how I should talk to please you, do you have a point you are trying to make here?

Milovan
18-08-11, 01:42
With all due respect but I truly believe that Serbs are genuine native Europeans. They’re even more native to Europe than the most Europeans even more than Scandinavians!

Such sensational stories about Sarmatians and Cimmerians this and that are very exciting. It's like I'm reading a very exciting detective novel of Hammett or Chandler. But it is still all fiction.

Stuff like this I come across only in the extremist anti-Semitic pan-Iranian sites, financed by the Iranian extremist mullahs! This is not an accusation or an insult toward anybody, I'm only a little bit too honest (I'm a little bit drunk now).

Btw, I (as a Kurd) like the idea that Serbs and Kurds are somehow related to each other. It would be great if it was true. I'm a very open-minded person but somehow this hypothesis doesn't make any sense in my mind.

I do not think serbs are related to kurds, you may be related to our pre-slavic ancestors scythians, cimmerians etc they were south of the caucasus at one point in time so it is possible.
both serbs and croats have a lot of native balkan ancestry as well, that is why they look so balkan
some of them have a balkan look, some have a slavic look depending on the individual. a lot of serbs look greek as well. I myself am american but i have serbian and brittish blood. I look slavic though.

cimmerians were in the ukrainian steppes before scythians conquered them it is common sense they were made slaves and were absorbed by them. next came the sarmatians who did the same thing to the scythians, does that make sense?
this is the steppe component R1a and possibly R1b (I believe cimmerians were R1b and related to celts) of slavs, the I2a2 component I believe to be of balkan origins that moved to the steppe. this hybrid people (due to mixing) became slavs
you will notice that when all mentions of sarmatians disappeared, slavs appeared in the same region. same time frame
Osprey publishing has books on both Sarmatians and Scythians, you can read about it. Osprey publishes books on military history but these books site historical references, archaeology and linguistic evidence as well. They clearly state serb and croat are Alan tribal names, the polish people have always claimed sarmatian ancestry as well especially their royalty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarmatism
polish sarmatism link

you can see someone here agrees with me about slavs being a hybrid R1a + I2a people
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml
I also agree that eastern scythians that did not become slavs, became turks after mixing with altaic peoples adopting altaic language and culture hence the R1a in turks and the fact they are in the exact same regions. kumiss the drink of scythians is still made and drank to this day by turks
the horsemanship of turkish tribes, serbian/polish hussars and cossacks I believe are directly derived from scytho-sarmatian roots

over a period of time the steppes became slavic, you will notice ukraine and southern russia was once scythian territory and later called sarmatia. even after scythians/sarmatians disappeared, the region was still called scythia and sarmatia by the west.

Milovan
18-08-11, 02:25
I2a2-din is to young (couple thousand of years ) to be on Balkans since Mezolite . There was heavy anihilation of ProtoBalkans during Hunic and Avar/Slavic raides so they cant influence todays genetics with more than70% ( I2a2, G2a , J1, J2 , E1b1 ,L, T,R1b, some of R1a in Serbia ) . Herzegovina is place where the Serbs and Croatians are first settled its not logical that there is prevailing Illyrian -I2a2 gen , unless its not Illyrian . Mesapi in Italy are cousins of Illyrians , why dont they have I2a2 ?
Only Paleolitic Europe group could be R1b ( some forms of it ) , because only nation that not speak Indoeuropean in Europe are Basqui (Esqudi) and they are more than 90% R1b .There is some older I2 on Balkans and it is I2*B present in Armenia , Asia Minor , Creete(9%) and Balkans especially Greece.
I am not shore there is no any I2a2 in betwen Caspian and Aral sea , I would check it out . But there is heavy % of R1a there and its not Slavic but Turcish from invading Mongolian and Turcic tribes since Hun invasion in IV century to Uzbeki invasion in XVI century and knowing Mongolians they wouldnt left too many indigenous population . There is certain I2a2 in Xingyang ( northwest China ) , and in Tadjikistan ( Pamir aeria ) . Betwen Caspian and Aral sea were Alans and they mostly moved with Vandas , Yazigi in Banat and Roxolani in todays Mordvinia.
Also there is not any prove there was moving of Daco-Thracians or Illyrians or any other Balkans in steppes( there wouldnt be any diference betwean Illyrians , Panonians and Tracians because after rebelion 6-9AD Roman moved and mixed parts of Illyrians , Panonians , Scordisci, and Tracians and formed new artificial tribes ) , but there is tons of proofs of Sarmatian moving to west.

every hear of the cimmerian bosporus (greek bosporus) or the bosporan kingdom?
greeks always had colonies in the steppes, the balkans is not far from ukraine it is not a stretch to say some went east
even if they didn't greek trading colonies on the black sea steppes could have brought them
I don't know how it happened
the fact is I2a2 made its way there somehow it didn't magically appear and why would scythians/sarmatians radically change their culture, language and religion without some outside influence?


it is ridiculous to think huns, avars, magyars etc annihilated the balkans, invasions yes, annihilation no. they didnt absorb the balkans you got it backwards. look at hungarians, they sure look white don't they? the only thing they kept that has any asian roots at all is there language and culture because they have european blood. those invasions had very minor effects on the genepool in the region, same thing with russia, you are going to tell me russians are turks not slavs? that's ridiculous. russians are slavs, turco-mongol hordes were there and had a minor influence on ethnic russians, even more of an influence then the balkans but not nearly as much as you'd think. the turco-mongol horde of russia is still there in the tatars and other turkish groups, there are many turkic minorities in russia that have absolutely nothing to do with ethnic russians.

xinjiang (probably spelled wrong) was the home of tocharians an aryan tribe, they are now turks (uyghur) and have both caucasian and asian autosomal dna. you can see it in dodecad charts.
all turks are a mixed race anyway of scythian/tocharian and altaic peoples.

Bodin
18-08-11, 02:42
With all due respect but I truly believe that Serbs are genuine native Europeans. They’re even more native to Europe than the most Europeans even more than Scandinavians!

Such sensational stories about Sarmatians and Cimmerians this and that are very exciting. It's like I'm reading a very exciting detective novel of Hammett or Chandler. But it is still all fiction.

Stuff like this I come across only in the extremist anti-Semitic pan-Iranian sites, financed by the Iranian extremist mullahs! This is not an accusation or an insult toward anybody, I'm only a little bit too honest (I'm a little bit drunk now).

Btw, I (as a Kurd) like the idea that Serbs and Kurds are somehow related to each other. It would be great if it was true. I'm a very open-minded person but somehow this hypothesis doesn't make any sense in my mind.

I trying to be honest even when I am not drunk.:smile: -joke .I apreciate you honesty , like I said before I joined this site to question my teories , so everybody is welcomed to chalenge them . Now I would like to hier how do you backing up your theory that Serbs are ancient population of Europe when every historic source say they comed on Balkan during rule of emperor Herakleos ( 610-641) . Maybe you like some think that I2a2 is not Serbian but Illyrian and Serbs are actually not Serbs but Illyrians. Like I said before :It is true that I2a2 is probably not hier since LGM because it would be more equaly disperced like mthDNA haplogroups that are in Europe since LGM . Few strong clusters of I2a2 could sugest and total apsence on other regions showing it is haplogroup that have mooved recently ( compared to LGM ) . Also it is to young to be hier since LGM , and there is not much divercity which should be expected if that is the case .
And about Serbian conections with Kurds if Serbs are Sarmatians , and Kurds are Medes , and Sarmatians are descendants of Medes ( Diodorus write that like I said before) logicaly there is conection betwen Kurds and Serbs , and that explain why Serbs have 38% of I2a2 , Croats 42%, Macedonians 29% , BIH 50% and Kurds 25% and nobody else in whole world had any near % of I2a2-Din to that . Please explain me what counter-evidence do not alow this idea to have sence in your mind , I came hier in search for such counter- evidence. Even if some of that wouldnt be true there would yet be strong genetic conections betwen Serbs and Kurds by I2a2.
These theory cant be PanIranic in any case because there is only 3% of I in Iran .

Milovan
18-08-11, 02:48
There are linguistic people who claim there is a Q-illyrian group from Dalmatia northwards and a P-Illyrian group from Montenegro southwards. While I am unsure about this. Greek Historians say that the Q group was a celtic-illyrian mix, while the P group was dardanian-thracian mix.
Knowing that Northern Italy was gallic-ligurian up to the Carni and Taurisci tribes in Noricum, it would seem reasonable that I2a2 was present in northern Illyrcium 1000 years before any sarmatians ( or sarmatian mix ) arrived.

I2a2 could be a mix of gothic and baltic people as this is what happened over centuries of Gothic migration from Scandza/gotland into pommerain, estonian lands

yes celts and germanic settlements in the balkans at one point in time, thats a fact. they have been absorbed into the balkans. i think some celts were in greece too for a short period. thracian definitely has its impact too, serbs absorbed a thracian/celtic tribe called the triballi.I think greeks were in the balkan too especially serbia and probably brought J2 and E-v13 with them

Bodin
18-08-11, 03:24
every hear of the cimmerian bosporus (greek bosporus) or the bosporan kingdom?
greeks always had colonies in the steppes, the balkans is not far from ukraine it is not a stretch to say some went east
even if they didn't greek trading colonies on the black sea steppes could have brought them
I don't know how it happened
the fact is I2a2 made its way there somehow it didn't magically appear and why would scythians/sarmatians radically change their culture, language and religion without some outside influence?


it is ridiculous to think huns, avars, magyars etc annihilated the balkans, invasions yes, annihilation no. they didnt absorb the balkans you got it backwards. look at hungarians, they sure look white don't they? the only thing they kept that has any asian roots at all is there language and culture because they have european blood. those invasions had very minor effects on the genepool in the region, same thing with russia, you are going to tell me russians are turks not slavs? that's ridiculous. russians are slavs, turco-mongol hordes were there and had a minor influence on ethnic russians, even more of an influence then the balkans but not nearly as much as you'd think. the turco-mongol horde of russia is still there in the tatars and other turkish groups, there are many turkic minorities in russia that have absolutely nothing to do with ethnic russians.

xinjiang (probably spelled wrong) was the home of tocharians an aryan tribe, they are now turks (uyghur) and have both caucasian and asian autosomal dna. you can see it in dodecad charts.
all turks are a mixed race anyway of scythian/tocharian and altaic peoples.
I2a2 cant be old Balcanic , and yes I going to repeat it again :It is true that I2a2 is probably not hier since LGM because it would be more equaly disperced like mthDNA haplogroups that are in Europe since LGM . Few strong clusters of I2a2 could sugest and total apsence on other regions showing it is haplogroup that have mooved recently ( compared to LGM ) . Also it is to young to be hier since LGM , and there is not much divercity which should be expected if that is the case . Also there is more I2a2 in newcomers : Serbs , Croats ,... than in old populations : Albanians , Greeks , Vlachs ,...
About Hungarians they were mostly R1a when they moved toward Panonia , like all Turk tribes including Huns . Also some of Russian R1a is Slavic , but some is Turkic to , or you think they just lived next Turks without any mixing ? In PseudoFroedegard is recorded that Avars use to spend every winter with Slavic womans in they khaganate and that is the reason why Slavs rebeled under Samo .When you allready mentioned Hungaria it has been populated by Panonians who were tribe of Illyrians ( Illyrians who lived north of Sava river were called Panonians ) , so if Illyrians were I2a2 then Panonians have to be the same ,and there is only 15% I2a2 in Hungary.
Yes I have heard for Bosphorus kingdom , most of his population was Scythian and Meotian , and kings ( Spartokids) were from Thrace, are you trying to say that Greek colonist bring I2a2 in stepes more then they bring haplogroups that are prevailing in they lands -J2 and E1b1b ? That dont sound logical . Again any movement of Balkanic populations toward stepes is not recorded archeologically or any other way .
I havent realy understood question about changing Scythian and Sarmathian languague , religion , culture ,... Serbian culture shows a lot of Sarmatian influence , everybody changed religion in christianity so they wouldnt die in crusades against them , It is proven that Slavic language was spoken by a small group around river Pripyat , and later has spread like lingua Franca in Hunic empire .
I didnt say they totaly anihilated them , there is plenty of E1b1 , J2 , G2a J1 , L and T on Balkan , and they couldnt be brought by newcomers , because there is small procentage of it in they own lands , but what you trying to say is that there was no murdering by Barbarians , there was no taking in to slavery , and there was no any settling of Barbarian tribes , or they were of small scale , oldo all sources speacking about large scale moving of populations - not thousands but millions . You claiming that more of 80% of today population was hier before Huns , can you please tell me which haplogroups were brought by newcomers, so I can see what is your oppinion? I need diferent point of view on this theory , I would appreciate your help .

Milovan
18-08-11, 04:05
I mean change of scythian/sarmatian religion to slavic paganism, not the same. sorry for the confusion there and change of their languages to slavic language.
On the genetics page on the main site it states hap I originated in the balkans, I2a2 originated in balkans, highest diversity of I subclades in balkans, highest percentage of I2a2 in balkans. do see what makes me think it is indigenous to the region?

of course turcs have some R1a they descend from scythians too. of course there could some turkic R1a in russia, never said there wasn't I'm saying theres very little turkish contribution to the gene pool and you are acting like they are 90% turkic blood, I'm saying turkic contribution is no more then %5 if that. think of this nomadic tribes take slave wives, the children are raised up as the children of those conquerers there language and culture, religfion, identity etc is that of their father not their slave mother. they become turks.
same with ottoman empire, the halfbreed children are not left in the slave gene pool, they are absorbed by the conquering gene pool, especially with islam as they were trying to spread their religion. with nomadic tengriists armies are predominantly men, theres no need to bring women with them, in fact bringing women with a horse riding army would slow it down. turks followed their scythian roots, their armies were built for speed. there is no need to bring women on campaign because you can easily take wives of those you conquer

I'm saying smaller scale then you implyed
the conquerors were vastly outnumbered by the locals but kept them in place by fear
their modern day descendants are the turc minorities of russia, they still speak turkic languages

have you ever read about the kievan-rus? and the migration to moscow forest region out of the steppes by many russians? this was to get away from turkic dominance
sviatoslav that expelled the khazars from ukraine did it by slavic revolt as slavs vastly outnumbered them

also when you as a conqueror take an area and are outnumbered by locals, immediately after conquest there is going to be rape and pillage by victorious soldiers thats common sense but you cannot do that for years on end or you will have a massive revolt overnight. foreign occupations are always cruel but it is mostly slave labor, unfair taxes/tribute and kidnapping a few women here and there not all out raping the entire population, if you did that you would cause a massive revolt instantly.
]

the huns same thing, they were a ruling class. most of their armies were germans, even sarmatians (jaszones of hungary) and vastly outnumbered by pannonians, same with avars massively outnumbered by slavs

zanipolo
18-08-11, 11:45
I2a2 cant be old Balcanic , and yes I going to repeat it again :It is true that I2a2 is probably not hier since LGM because it would be more equaly disperced like mthDNA haplogroups that are in Europe since LGM . Few strong clusters of I2a2 could sugest and total apsence on other regions showing it is haplogroup that have mooved recently ( compared to LGM ) . Also it is to young to be hier since LGM , and there is not much divercity which should be expected if that is the case . Also there is more I2a2 in newcomers : Serbs , Croats ,... than in old populations : Albanians , Greeks , Vlachs ,...
About Hungarians they were mostly R1a when they moved toward Panonia , like all Turk tribes including Huns . Also some of Russian R1a is Slavic , but some is Turkic to , or you think they just lived next Turks without any mixing ? In PseudoFroedegard is recorded that Avars use to spend every winter with Slavic womans in they khaganate and that is the reason why Slavs rebeled under Samo .When you allready mentioned Hungaria it has been populated by Panonians who were tribe of Illyrians ( Illyrians who lived north of Sava river were called Panonians ) , so if Illyrians were I2a2 then Panonians have to be the same ,and there is only 15% I2a2 in Hungary.
Yes I have heard for Bosphorus kingdom , most of his population was Scythian and Meotian , and kings ( Spartokids) were from Thrace, are you trying to say that Greek colonist bring I2a2 in stepes more then they bring haplogroups that are prevailing in they lands -J2 and E1b1b ? That dont sound logical . Again any movement of Balkanic populations toward stepes is not recorded archeologically or any other way .
I havent realy understood question about changing Scythian and Sarmathian languague , religion , culture ,... Serbian culture shows a lot of Sarmatian influence , everybody changed religion in christianity so they wouldnt die in crusades against them , It is proven that Slavic language was spoken by a small group around river Pripyat , and later has spread like lingua Franca in Hunic empire .
I didnt say they totaly anihilated them , there is plenty of E1b1 , J2 , G2a J1 , L and T on Balkan , and they couldnt be brought by newcomers , because there is small procentage of it in they own lands , but what you trying to say is that there was no murdering by Barbarians , there was no taking in to slavery , and there was no any settling of Barbarian tribes , or they were of small scale , oldo all sources speacking about large scale moving of populations - not thousands but millions . You claiming that more of 80% of today population was hier before Huns , can you please tell me which haplogroups were brought by newcomers, so I can see what is your oppinion? I need diferent point of view on this theory , I would appreciate your help .

So, If I understand you correctly, you say, that I2a2 was broughrt into the illyrian areas by the sarmatians and slavs. If this is the case and there is very little Haplo E1b1 in illyrian areas north of Montenegro, then are you saying that that R1a was there in northern illyria in the bronze and iron age ?
It cannot be G2a as it is small in number plus it is in the alps.

With noricum having R1b due to the gallic tribes and north of the danube I1 because of east germanic tribes, then what could pannonia be ?

it seems strange that the slavs brought I2a , when east germanic tribes passed first

Taranis
18-08-11, 16:16
yes early 20th century the word IE was invented, its a modern word which is the same exact thing as the old word for it, the old word is aryan. are you like the language police trying to tell people how to talk and what words to use? I'm not going to change how I talk to please others.

Actually, you are totally wrong. The term "Indo-European" is from the 19th century, and actually older than the term "Aryan". In the German, speaking context, the term "Indo-Germanic" ("Indo-Germanisch") was actually used, which continues to be actually used in German and is interchangably with "Indo-European". Read up on the history of Indo-European linguistics. That's all I can say here.


you are wrong about persians being the only ones to use the word historically, india, afghanistan, kurds, armenians and many others have always used the word aryan and still do to this day. europe used it frequently all the way up until after world war 2 because of political correctness because of hitler stigma attached to it.

Yes, cognates of the word "Aryan" exist both other Iranic languages and in the Indic languages, but the self-designation as "Aryans" only exists amongst the Persians.

Regarding uses of "Aryan" outside of the Indo-Iranic linguistic area, that simply did not exist. It was a fabrication of the late 19th century which only emerged after linguistics established the existence of the Indo-European language family. If you believe anything else then you're very wrong.

The fact that Hitler made use of this late 19t century "Aryan romanticism" makes it only an inch worse.


I despise poltical correctness and I am not ashamed of my ancestors.

How do you know that they are your ancestors? Did you make a gene test? Besides, it is by no means clear which one was the "original" Indo-European Y-Haplogroup, or if there even originally was just one to begin with (entirely possible it was not). Of course you might argue that R1a is the best candidate for the original Haplogroup, but the fact that R1a is relatively in Western Europe shows how difficult that is.


now you're going to tell me ancient greeks were in ireland and named them eire
you didn't put your source for that either by the way

I did not claim that the ancient Greeks named them "Eire". However, the ancient Greeks recorded the ancient names for Ireland ("Ierne", "Iwernia"), and it is clear that the modern Irish name "Eire" is derived from this.

Also in the 4th century BC, Pytheas of Massilia (a Greek city state, modern-day Marseilles) visited the British Isles and the north Sea. He was the first to mention the existence of Ireland. Otherwise, I suggest you reading the geographies of Strabo and Ptolemy.


whether you like it or not celts were aryans, you can see aryan symbols like the swastika and triskele everywhere they went, you also see it in ancient rome, greece, anatolia, iran, india and everywhere else aryan people went.

First off, the Celtic-speaking peoples never were a homogenous ethnic group, and they certainly didn't consider themselves "Aryans", and they did not all consider themselves "Celts" either. Also, as I said most of western Europe is R1b, and if R1a is the original Indo-European marker then it's very clear that the Celtic peoples are not descended from the original Indo-Europeans.

Also, the idea that the swastika was an "Aryan" symbol is complete nonsense because it appears in various different cultures, many of which are non-Indo-European, including Native Americans and Etruscans (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e8/Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Ita ly_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg/659px-Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Ita ly_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg).


aside from trying to tell me how I should talk to please you, do you have a point you are trying to make here?

No, you're not supposed to "please" me in any way. But I'm trying to point out all along that your view is completely ignorant of a lot of facts and problems, and I am off the impression that you intentially want to get a number of issues very wrong because they do not fit into your own world view.

Goga
18-08-11, 17:49
Now I would like to hear how do you backing up your theory that Serbs are ancient population of Europe when every historic source say they comed on Balkan during rule of emperor Herakleos ( 610-641) . Maybe you like some think that I2a2 is not Serbian but Illyrian and Serbs are actually not Serbs but Illyrians. Like I said before :It is true that I2a2 is probably not hier since LGM because it would be more equaly disperced like mthDNA haplogroups that are in Europe since LGM . Few strong clusters of I2a2 could sugest and total apsence on other regions showing it is haplogroup that have mooved recently ( compared to LGM ) . Also it is to young to be hier since LGM , and there is not much divercity which should be expected if that is the case.I've no idea. You know much more about the Serbs than I do. I thought that I2a was native to the Balkans (and Kurdistan), because they found some very old DNA of Neolithic farmers and they were mostly I2a (with a little bit of G2a) folks.

Taranis
18-08-11, 17:54
I've no idea. You know much more about the Serbs than I do. I thought that I2a was native to the Balkans, because they found some very old DNA of Neolithic farmers and they were mostly I2a (with a little bit of G2a) folks.

Haplogroup I as a whole is currently the best candidate for being "aboriginal", however as we know from Haplogroup I1 they were subject to a severe bottleneck in the late neolithic / early chalcolithic and then were dispersed by subsequent migrations. Haplogroup I2 as a whole fared better than Haplogroup I1, but it probably expirienced a similar phenomenon, hence it is to be expected that they are subject to similar patterns and the modern high concentrations may not necessarily be representative of the situation in the past.

Regarding the Neolithic farmers, it was actually the other way round: they were G2a with some I2a.

Goga
18-08-11, 18:00
Ok, thanks.

Goga
18-08-11, 18:08
Regarding the Neolithic farmers, it was actually the other way round: they were G2a with some I2a.You're right. More G2a than I2a. But there was still some I2a in the Neolthic farmers. So it must be very old and already part of the native Serbians. There was no E...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/y-chromosome-mtdna-and-autosomal-dna.html

Dorianfinder
18-08-11, 18:22
If you cannot agree what constitutes a Serbian marker then it is because the Serbian population is similar to the Bosniacs and the Croats with all having elevated I2 but different amounts of Slavic R1a, J2 and R1b.

Croats having nearly 30% R1a, and Bosniacs and Serbs have around 15% R1a.
Bosnians and Serbs have about twice as much J2 than the Croat population.
Croats and Serbs have about twice as much R1b than the Bosnian population.

In summation (besides elevated I2):
- Serbians have more J2 and R1b but less Slavic R1a.
- Croats have more R1a and R1b but less J2.
- Bosnians have more J2 and less R1a and R1b.

Taranis
18-08-11, 18:37
You're right. More G2a than I2a. But there was still some I2a in the Neolthic farmers. So it must be very old and already part of the native Serbians.

Yes, and as I said, Haplogroup I as a whole is the best candidate thus far for an "aboriginal" European Haplogroup. That we find both G2a and I2a in the Neolithic site in France should not be surprising since we can expect the Neolithic farmers and the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers to have intermingled with each other. What also should be added, at least if I remember correctly, is that I2a in that site is actually I2a1 (the "Basque-Sardinian" if you will Haplogroup, and not the I2a2 found on the Balkans.

Also, given it's age, I would refrain from making any connections with the Serbians, even if today they have the Haplogroup in sizable quantities. It's very clear that I2a predates the ethnogenesis of the Serbians, it's also clear that I2a predates the emergence of the Proto-Slavs, and it's likely that it also predates the arrival of Indo-Europeans in Europe (at least in that area) in the first place.


There was no E...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/y-chromosome-mtdna-and-autosomal-dna.html

Yes, the absence of Haplogroup E in Neolithic sites was quite a surprise and there is no satifying explanation for this yet.

Bodin
18-08-11, 19:11
I mean change of scythian/sarmatian religion to slavic paganism, not the same. sorry for the confusion there and change of their languages to slavic language.
On the genetics page on the main site it states hap I originated in the balkans, I2a2 originated in balkans, highest diversity of I subclades in balkans, highest percentage of I2a2 in balkans. do see what makes me think it is indigenous to the region?

of course turcs have some R1a they descend from scythians too. of course there could some turkic R1a in russia, never said there wasn't I'm saying theres very little turkish contribution to the gene pool and you are acting like they are 90% turkic blood, I'm saying turkic contribution is no more then %5 if that. think of this nomadic tribes take slave wives, the children are raised up as the children of those conquerers there language and culture, religfion, identity etc is that of their father not their slave mother. they become turks.
same with ottoman empire, the halfbreed children are not left in the slave gene pool, they are absorbed by the conquering gene pool, especially with islam as they were trying to spread their religion. with nomadic tengriists armies are predominantly men, theres no need to bring women with them, in fact bringing women with a horse riding army would slow it down. turks followed their scythian roots, their armies were built for speed. there is no need to bring women on campaign because you can easily take wives of those you conquer

I'm saying smaller scale then you implyed
the conquerors were vastly outnumbered by the locals but kept them in place by fear
their modern day descendants are the turc minorities of russia, they still speak turkic languages

have you ever read about the kievan-rus? and the migration to moscow forest region out of the steppes by many russians? this was to get away from turkic dominance
sviatoslav that expelled the khazars from ukraine did it by slavic revolt as slavs vastly outnumbered them

also when you as a conqueror take an area and are outnumbered by locals, immediately after conquest there is going to be rape and pillage by victorious soldiers thats common sense but you cannot do that for years on end or you will have a massive revolt overnight. foreign occupations are always cruel but it is mostly slave labor, unfair taxes/tribute and kidnapping a few women here and there not all out raping the entire population, if you did that you would cause a massive revolt instantly.
]

the huns same thing, they were a ruling class. most of their armies were germans, even sarmatians (jaszones of hungary) and vastly outnumbered by pannonians, same with avars massively outnumbered by slavs
Where is the proof that Serbs ever had practiced Slavic paganism ? Also Slavs use to worship a great number of Sarmatian gods Voden , Morava , Simargl , Dajbog , Svantovit , Jarovit , Hors ,...
There is highest diversity of R1a in Bosnia it doesnt imply all Slavs are from Bosnia , high diversity may imply that there was a lot of diferent nations in that aeria and multiple colonizing waves .
On Altay mountin prevailing haplogroup is R1a that show YCA II a,b of 19,21 , whit some Q and K2 ,and Altay is where all Turks came from , Slavic R1a is showing YCA II a,b of 19,23 ( like most of European R1a ) . I believe there is atleast 15% of Turk R1a in Russians ( not whole state but only ortodox , Slavic speaking Rus ) - there were : Huns , Khazars , Bulgars( not shore they are Turks) , Pechenegs , Kutrigurs , Utrigurs , Kumans ( they were probably mostly J2 from Khorazm like 1. wave of Avars ) , Tatars/ Mongols , Uzi , Saraguri , Sabiri , ... Thats a lot of Turkic genes . Thanks for answering , I believe you havent told me which haplogroups you consider to be on Balkans before Hunic invasions on Europe , please do .

Dorianfinder
18-08-11, 19:22
Where is the proof that Serbs ever had practiced Slavic paganism ? Also Slavs use to worship a great number of Sarmatian gods Voden , Morava , Simargl , Dajbog , Svantovit , Jarovit , Hors ,...
There is highest diversity of R1a in Bosnia it doesnt imply all Slavs are from Bosnia , high diversity may imply that there was a lot of diferent nations in that aeria and multiple colonizing waves .
On Altay mountin prevailing haplogroup is R1a that show YCA II a,b of 19,21 , whit some Q and K2 ,and Altay is where all Turks came from , Slavic R1a is showing YCA II a,b of 19,23 ( like most of European R1a ) . I believe there is atleast 15% of Turk R1a in Russians ( not whole state but only ortodox , Slavic speaking Rus ) - there were : Huns , Khazars , Bulgars( not shore they are Turks) , Pechenegs , Kutrigurs , Utrigurs , Kumans ( they were probably mostly J2 from Khorazm like 1. wave of Avars ) , Tatars/ Mongols , Uzi , Saraguri , Sabiri , ... Thats a lot of Turkic genes . Thanks for answering , I believe you havent told me which haplogroups you consider to be on Balkans before Hunic invasions on Europe , please do .

@ Bodin

What are the main haplogroups found among the locals of modern region where ancient Sarmatia was located?

Bodin
18-08-11, 19:31
So, If I understand you correctly, you say, that I2a2 was broughrt into the illyrian areas by the sarmatians and slavs. If this is the case and there is very little Haplo E1b1 in illyrian areas north of Montenegro, then are you saying that that R1a was there in northern illyria in the bronze and iron age ?
It cannot be G2a as it is small in number plus it is in the alps.

With noricum having R1b due to the gallic tribes and north of the danube I1 because of east germanic tribes, then what could pannonia be ?

it seems strange that the slavs brought I2a , when east germanic tribes passed first
Yes I am saying that I2a2 is brought mainly by Sarmatians , and in smaller percentage by Slavs and Goths ( both Visi and OstroGoths) due their contacts with Saramatians on north bank of Black see . Yes there was R1a in Illyria and Panonia during bronze age , like there was R1a in today Czech republic and east Germany long before ariving of Slavs it is found in ancient graves from that time . There is 20% of E1b1b in Bosnia , aldo some maybe due to moving of Serbs from Serbia to Bosanska Krajina .
Again Slavs brought only small percent of I2a2 , most of it is brought by Sarmatian - non Slavic tribes( there was some Slavic genes but mostly not) Serbs and Croats , east Germans - Gots brought part of I2a2 but they only could received it from Sarmatians , because there is no I2a2 in Getalanda in south Sweden from where they cross to Vistula and then to Black see . Gotic contribution to Serbs and Croats is about 7% of I1 and some of R1a

Bodin
18-08-11, 19:44
@ Bodin

What are the main haplogroups found among the locals of modern region where ancient Sarmatia was located?
North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) , G is probably Meotian and Colhidian.
South Ukraine - Sarmatia since II century AD : I2a2 12% ( whole Ukraine )
About Kazahstan where Alans were I couldnt find data , help me if you can , but that aeria was devastated by Mongolians , and I would espect most of them to be descendants of Gingis kan C3 and Turkic R1a .

Bodin
18-08-11, 20:09
Yes, and as I said, Haplogroup I as a whole is the best candidate thus far for an "aboriginal" European Haplogroup. That we find both G2a and I2a in the Neolithic site in France should not be surprising since we can expect the Neolithic farmers and the Mesolithic hunter-gatherers to have intermingled with each other. What also should be added, at least if I remember correctly, is that I2a in that site is actually I2a1 (the "Basque-Sardinian" if you will Haplogroup, and not the I2a2 found on the Balkans.

Also, given it's age, I would refrain from making any connections with the Serbians, even if today they have the Haplogroup in sizable quantities. It's very clear that I2a predates the ethnogenesis of the Serbians, it's also clear that I2a predates the emergence of the Proto-Slavs, and it's likely that it also predates the arrival of Indo-Europeans in Europe (at least in that area) in the first place.



Yes, the absence of Haplogroup E in Neolithic sites was quite a surprise and there is no satifying explanation for this yet.
Abscence of E in Neolithick sites in France - E haplogroup is weak in France even today 7% - after moving of Roman soldiers from Balkans , North Africa and Near East , and Greek colonies like Massalia .
That I2a in Sardinia is probably most Vandal , and Tacitus say Vandals were oldest population of Germany , so it wouldnt be souprice that some of them moved to France during Neolite , maybe not under the name of Vandals. Most of found DNA was G and today in France G is 5% that say a lot about population exchange since Neolite I believe that graves was from IV millenium BC maybe even younger ?
I believe aboriginal-Paleolitic Europeans were R1b ( some parts of it are from east ) , because only non Indoeuropean speacking population of Europe are Basque ( Esqudi ) , and they have 86% of R1b , ofcourse there is also 9% of I2a2 but I believ it is Alano-Vandalic. Germans try to present R1b like more Indoeuropean , because they are mostly R1b , sorry Russians are more Indoeuropean - Aryan then you are .:smile:-joke( dont hate me)

Taranis
18-08-11, 21:12
Abscence of E in Neolithick sites in France - E haplogroup is weak in France even today 7% - after moving of Roman soldiers from Balkans , North Africa and Near East , and Greek colonies like Massalia .

Well, it's entirely. possible that it arrived only with the Greek and Romans in modern-day France.


That I2a in Sardinia is probably most Vandal , and Tacitus say Vandals were oldest population of Germany , so it wouldnt be souprice that some of them moved to France during Neolite , maybe not under the name of Vandals. Most of found DNA was G and today in France G is 5% that say a lot about population exchange since Neolite I believe that graves was from IV millenium BC maybe even younger ?

Why should be I2a in Sardinia Vandal? The Vandals originally lived in approximately the area modern-day western Poland, and area where I2a1 is virtually absent. Sorry, but the Neolithic almost certainly predates the ethnogenesis of the Vandals, even the ethnogenesis of the Germanic peoples as a whole by several thousand years. There is no way this would work out. Also consider that the Vandals were in Sardinia for less than a century. It is more likely that Sardinian I2a originates from the indigenous Nuraghic civilization.

By the way, regarding Tacitus, just because he says the names are indigenous and older than the (exonym) "Germani" doesn't mean that they go back into the bronze age or Neolithic. That just makes no sense.


I believe aboriginal-Paleolitic Europeans were R1b ( some parts of it are from east ) , because only non Indoeuropean speacking population of Europe are Basque ( Esqudi ) , and they have 86% of R1b , ofcourse there is also 9% of I2a2 but I believ it is Alano-Vandalic.

The idea that R1b is Paleolithic to Europe was popularized in the early 2000s, but it has been decisively debunked for a variety of reasons: the first reason is that all ancient clades of R1b are solely found outside of Europe, and secondly that western European R1b is solely of the subclade M-269. If R1b originated in Europe, all the ancient clades should be also found there.

Since circa 2008, the general consensus is that R1b arrived in Europe in the Neolithic or later. In that context, you might want to check out this paper (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000285). The failure to find R1b in Neolithic sites suggests that indeed R1b must have entered Europe even later, either in the Copper Age or possibly as late as the Bronze Age.

Regarding I2a2, I completely fail to see how this could be "Alando-Vandalic". In particular, I2a2 has been found in the Neolithic site of Treilles, France thereby it should be obvious that it has been there since at least the Neolithic.

Mind you, the site in Treilles today some ~80% of the population are R1b. That there is 0% R1b in the Neolithic sample should tell you something.


Germans try to present R1b like more Indoeuropean , because they are mostly R1b , sorry Russians are more Indoeuropean - Aryan then you are .:smile:-joke( dont hate me)

:laughing:

Well, I don't think that R1b was the original Haplogroup of the Proto-Indo-Europeans (for reasons described above), but given the late date it entered, it is certainly plausible to assume it is associated with the spread of the western branches of the Indo-European languages.

Regarding the Basques, first off, they are not the only non-Indo-European peoples in Europe (what about Uralic peoples like the Finns, Estonians and Hungarians? Though the Hungarians only migrated to their present-day position in the 9th century AD), and seconldy they never were. On the ancient Iberian penninsula there was also the Iberian language, which was not necessarily related with Basque, as was the Tartessian language. Otherwise, I agree it's hard to explain how they come to have almost 90% R1b: the two most obvious scenarios are that either the Basques aren't native to western Europe, or that a foreign (patrilineal) elite placed themselves amongst the Basques and R1b became dominant through polygamy.

Dorianfinder
18-08-11, 21:13
North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) , G is probably Meotian and Colhidian.
South Ukraine - Sarmatia since II century AD : I2a2 12% ( whole Ukraine )
About Kazahstan where Alans were I couldnt find data , help me if you can , but that aeria was devastated by Mongolians , and I would espect most of them to be descendants of Gingis kan C3 and Turkic R1a .

What about the Ukraine and it's extremely high frequency of Slavic R1a? Similar to Slovenia, Russia and Poland.

Sarmatian DNA was likely composed of R1a (40-50%), I (5-10%), G (5-10%) and less E, J and N. The G was concentrated in the East (Caucasus) and the I in the West (Border with Balkans). The very low levels of G in Serbians suggests they were already in the Balkans.

Rebala K et al. (2007), Y-STR variation among Slavs: evidence for the Slavic homeland in the middle Dnieper basin, Journal of Human Genetics, 52:406-14 (http://www.springerlink.com/content/c3ht013txp686v71/)

[re-post]
If you cannot agree what constitutes a Serbian marker then it is because the Serbian population is similar to the Bosniacs and the Croats with all having elevated I2 but different amounts of Slavic R1a, J2 and R1b.

Croats having nearly 30% R1a, and Bosniacs and Serbs have around 15% R1a.
Bosnians and Serbs have about twice as much J2 than the Croat population.
Croats and Serbs have about twice as much R1b than the Bosnian population.

In summation (besides elevated I2):
- Serbians have more J2 and R1b but less Slavic R1a.
- Croats have more R1a and R1b but less J2.
- Bosnians have more J2 and less R1a and R1b.

Milovan
19-08-11, 02:17
How do you know that they are your ancestors? Did you make a gene test? Besides, it is by no means clear which one was the "original" Indo-European Y-Haplogroup, or if there even originally was just one to begin with (entirely possible it was not). Of course you might argue that R1a is the best candidate for the original Haplogroup, but the fact that R1a is relatively in Western Europe shows how difficult that is.

First off, the Celtic-speaking peoples never were a homogenous ethnic group, and they certainly didn't consider themselves "Aryans", and they did not all consider themselves "Celts" either. Also, as I said most of western Europe is R1b, and if R1a is the original Indo-European marker then it's very clear that the Celtic peoples are not descended from the original Indo-Europeans.

Also, the idea that the swastika was an "Aryan" symbol is complete nonsense because it appears in various different cultures, many of which are non-Indo-European, including Native Americans and Etruscans (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e8/Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Ita ly_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg/659px-Etruscan_pendant_with_swastika_symbols_Bolsena_Ita ly_700_BCE_to_650_BCE.jpg).

No, you're not supposed to "please" me in any way. But I'm trying to point out all along that your view is completely ignorant of a lot of facts and problems, and I am off the impression that you intentially want to get a number of issues very wrong because they do not fit into your own world view.

it's debatable as to who the etruscans were, there's not enough info to say what they were really. fact- they did have aryan neighbors and later on were absorbed by them, their art also looks very greek, so there must have been some greek influence coming up from southern italy.
what makes you think only R1a is aryan and not all hap R period? you go far enough back in time of course the language and culture would not be developed yet if thats your argument, but everywhere there is R1a there is also R1b usually in smaller proportions, there is R1b in central asia and india. I believe tocharians were R1b predominantly and they were aryan. as far as R* or R2 it is only present in india in the same places as R1a and a little R1b. as far as I know the only non aryan speaking R1b areas are basque country and african R1b like in cameroon. if you look at all R1b areas all but a few minor exceptions are aryan speakers.

both R1b and R1a were in the steppes and central asia, I believe one branch of R1b was on the russian steppes and the R1a was on the eastern part of the steppes with a little R1b mixed in with them. this western tribe carrying R1b went west in 2 waves (see below for my theory on that) before R1a moved in to the russian steppe. I believe cimmerians were predominantly R1b and were the last R1b people to stay in the steppes.

if an aryan tribe did invade africa and kept moving south over time they would of course be absorbed by africans, that's just common sense and what I believe happened. why no metal workings or typical art from them, it depends on the time frame. like I said before you go back far enough culture is less developed. being absorbed they lost what would have been their language.
basque R1b- basques have a lot of R1b and a version of the swastika even though they have a different name for it. who's to say there was only one R1b migration into europe (pre celts)? everywhere R1b is present in europe except basque country there is caucasus blood with it (look at dodecad charts). this to me, means there was 2 migrations of R1b at separate times, 1 pure R1b that invaded basque country and possibly bringing that swastika with them, they could have lost their language and kept the old language, who knows? it is possible. the 2nd wave of R1b (pre celtic) having a little caucasus blood with it corresponding to hap g and the "west asian" (obviously caucasus, highest in georgians) component on dodecad charts (autosomal).
for the record I believe there was multiple migrations of caucasus peoples into europe as well, the one with the pre celts being only one of them.

I believe that all nations are a genetic cocktail of the indigenous and invasions, of all peoples that once inhabited said land. you referenced my "worldview", as far as genetics and ancestry is concerned that's it.

I also believe caucasus peoples were in mesopotamia/iran a long time ago, either migrating out of the caucasus or before they reached the caucasus one or the other.
they were obviously the majority of iran at one point in time, aryan tribes absorbed them. armenians and ossetians is a different story for their caucasus blood because they are in the caucasus itself (self explanatory). look at autosomal charts of india and iran, you will see the "west asian" caucasus component vastly outnumbers the "north european" (what I believe to be hap R peoples) aryan one. this I believe to be the basis for the caucasus aryan theories which I believe to be false, I believe the kurgan hypothesis.

Bodin
19-08-11, 03:36
Well, it's entirely. possible that it arrived only with the Greek and Romans in modern-day France.



Why should be I2a in Sardinia Vandal? The Vandals originally lived in approximately the area modern-day western Poland, and area where I2a1 is virtually absent. Sorry, but the Neolithic almost certainly predates the ethnogenesis of the Vandals, even the ethnogenesis of the Germanic peoples as a whole by several thousand years. There is no way this would work out. Also consider that the Vandals were in Sardinia for less than a century. It is more likely that Sardinian I2a originates from the indigenous Nuraghic civilization.

By the way, regarding Tacitus, just because he says the names are indigenous and older than the (exonym) "Germani" doesn't mean that they go back into the bronze age or Neolithic. That just makes no sense.



The idea that R1b is Paleolithic to Europe was popularized in the early 2000s, but it has been decisively debunked for a variety of reasons: the first reason is that all ancient clades of R1b are solely found outside of Europe, and secondly that western European R1b is solely of the subclade M-269. If R1b originated in Europe, all the ancient clades should be also found there.

Since circa 2008, the general consensus is that R1b arrived in Europe in the Neolithic or later. In that context, you might want to check out this paper (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000285). The failure to find R1b in Neolithic sites suggests that indeed R1b must have entered Europe even later, either in the Copper Age or possibly as late as the Bronze Age.

Regarding I2a2, I completely fail to see how this could be "Alando-Vandalic". In particular, I2a2 has been found in the Neolithic site of Treilles, France thereby it should be obvious that it has been there since at least the Neolithic.

Mind you, the site in Treilles today some ~80% of the population are R1b. That there is 0% R1b in the Neolithic sample should tell you something.



:laughing:

Well, I don't think that R1b was the original Haplogroup of the Proto-Indo-Europeans (for reasons described above), but given the late date it entered, it is certainly plausible to assume it is associated with the spread of the western branches of the Indo-European languages.

Regarding the Basques, first off, they are not the only non-Indo-European peoples in Europe (what about Uralic peoples like the Finns, Estonians and Hungarians? Though the Hungarians only migrated to their present-day position in the 9th century AD), and seconldy they never were. On the ancient Iberian penninsula there was also the Iberian language, which was not necessarily related with Basque, as was the Tartessian language. Otherwise, I agree it's hard to explain how they come to have almost 90% R1b: the two most obvious scenarios are that either the Basques aren't native to western Europe, or that a foreign (patrilineal) elite placed themselves amongst the Basques and R1b became dominant through polygamy.
Findings in Treilles are from Neolithe and from first faze of it , when G haplogroup from Caucasus entered Europe , and most of DNA that was finded there was G , only few were I, and that I was I2a1 not I2a2 -Din
. Couldnt it be plausible that some I comed from Caucasus were it is present in Armenia together with G . Sample is to small to draw any conclusions. And why would you think there would be preserved paleolitic haplogroups on Balkans which is crossroad of civilisations ( entering point from Asia ) and not in France which is in corner from any movements of nations? Only R1a1a and R1b-M269 could be conected with Indoeuropean movement to Europe . R1b (M73 and V88 ) clearly predate Indoeuropean movement . R1b1b2- Basque haplogroup also predates IE movement, all of it subclades has emerged in Europe , which mean there was no recent movements. R-L23 is 12.000 years old and it is spreaded all over Euroasia.Distribution of R1b -strong on west , weak on east show it had moved from west to east. How did R1b crossed over midle Europe in souch great numbers without leaving any significant trail Rusia 6% , Ukraine 8% , Belarus 10% , Finland only 3,5% ( and up to 30% in Sweden and Norway).And still R1a that acompanied them left souch strong trail in Easter and Midle Europe . Did they have aeroplanes?:smile:You can turn question other way and ask yourself , if R1b realy camed in Europe together with R1a shouldnt there be more R1a in aerias where R1b is strongest :Spain ( 2% ) , Portugale ( 1,5% ) , Belgium (4%) , England ( 4,5%), France (2,5%) , Netherland (6%) ,Ireland (4%) , Scotland (4%) , Italia (2,5%) , Wales ( 3%) .
How do you explaining I2a2 in Kurds and Pastuni in Afganistan and Pakistan ? And very small percentage in Turkey 4% which conects Balkans with them , and most of it can be explained by moving of Serbs and Croats to Turkey like Yenichar army or by moving whole cities ( like population of Belgrade was moved to Istambul during XVI century , there is yet Belgrade mahala - quarter ).How do you explain that there is more I2a2 in newcomers -Croats and Serbs than in old populations like Romanians , Albanians ,Greeks ? Mesapi in Italy were descendants of Illyrians that crosed Adriatic see , why there is no I2a2 in they aerias - southern Italy ?
Sorry forgot about Finns and Ests , there is another paleolitical haplogroup N1c ( in Europe since 20.000 years ago ) , Hungarians speak Indoeuropean languague with 50 Uralic and 100 Altaic( Turkic) words .
I believe Iberians moved in Spain 1200 BC acording to Romans.
Thanks for answering .

Bodin
19-08-11, 04:14
What about the Ukraine and it's extremely high frequency of Slavic R1a? Similar to Slovenia, Russia and Poland.

Sarmatian DNA was likely composed of R1a (40-50%), I (5-10%), G (5-10%) and less E, J and N. The G was concentrated in the East (Caucasus) and the I in the West (Border with Balkans). The very low levels of G in Serbians suggests they were already in the Balkans.

Rebala K et al. (2007), Y-STR variation among Slavs: evidence for the Slavic homeland in the middle Dnieper basin, Journal of Human Genetics, 52:406-14 (http://www.springerlink.com/content/c3ht013txp686v71/)

[re-post]
If you cannot agree what constitutes a Serbian marker then it is because the Serbian population is similar to the Bosniacs and the Croats with all having elevated I2 but different amounts of Slavic R1a, J2 and R1b.

Croats having nearly 30% R1a, and Bosniacs and Serbs have around 15% R1a.
Bosnians and Serbs have about twice as much J2 than the Croat population.
Croats and Serbs have about twice as much R1b than the Bosnian population.

In summation (besides elevated I2):
- Serbians have more J2 and R1b but less Slavic R1a.
- Croats have more R1a and R1b but less J2.
- Bosnians have more J2 and less R1a and R1b.
Ukraine was olso settled by Slavs - thats why R1a is very high , most of Ukrainian I2a is on south ( that is why I said South Ukraine ) ,
and on Carpathians on the west were are the Rusini .
Why would Sarmatians have high G , they use to live in stepas ( low land ) north of Caucasus , and didnt mixed with G on mountin . Only later Ossetians moved on Caucasus ( Alania state in Midle Ages ) and mixed with G from Caucasus . If you exclude R1b, L , I1, I2b ,and most of R1a,E1b1b1, J2; G is not so low in Serbia.
If Serbs , Croats and Bosniacs are all Sarmatians by origin, or any other same origin , and they are of same origin, you shouldnt look what separates them - that would only show markers of diferent nations they mixed with , you should acctualy look simillarities if you want to know what they looked geneticaly in past times.
Serbians have more J2 and R1b because there is more old population in Serbia ( first settling aerias of Serbs and Croats were in Herzegovina , Dalmatia , Bosnia , southwest Serbia- state of Rascia , and Montenegro - aldo there was most old Illyro-Albanian tribes , and there is stronger E1b1b1 and J2 ) , other parts of Serbia were gradualy conquested up to XIII century , so there would be less of Serbian genes and more of genes of old Balkans .
Croats have more R1a because Slavonia is settled with Slavs (like name says) that have been brought by Avars to protect they borders. And higher R1b because there was lot more Celts in north parts of Balkans.
Bosnians have more J2 because: 1) there was Thracean tribe of Bessi who give name to Bosnia ( river ) around which they have lived , and state is called after the river , I believe Thraceans were mostly J2 - they comed from Asia Minor 2) Serbians from Serbia mooved in great numbers to west Bosnia ( Bosanska Krajina ) during XV and XVI century to fight for Turks like soldiers in status of Vlachs 3) it is recorded in Turkic defteri ( lists of population of an aeria , with informations about value of taxes they are due to pay ) , that Turks are brought certain number of tribes from Asia Minor to settle in Bosnia and serve like soldiers against Austria and Venice.

Dorianfinder
19-08-11, 12:53
Ukraine was olso settled by Slavs - thats why R1a is very high

And so were the Balkans, the difference between the Slav population in the Balkans is more Slavic R1a as opposed to the Balkanic R1a.


Why would Sarmatians have high G , they use to live in stepas ( low land ) north of Caucasus , and didnt mixed with G on mountin .

The region has been influenced by the Caucasus and the Caucasus has the highest levels of G in the world. Which mountain?


G is not so low in Serbia.

What is the frequency of G in Serbia? There is more G in Greece and Germany.


If Serbs , Croats and Bosniacs are all Sarmatians by origin, or any other same origin, and they are of same origin, you shouldnt look what separates them - that would only show markers of diferent nations they mixed with , you should acctualy look simillarities if you want to know what they looked geneticaly in past times.

Do you always only look at the things you like or want to find. To learn what happened you need to understand the admixtures. An increase in R1b in Serbs and Croats relative to Bosniacs is very relevant. Do you want to make them exactly the same?

The Croats have 2x more R1a! This is the Slavic R1a and suggests possible diffusion from Croat into the Serb and Bosniac population, pushing R1a higher in Serbs and Bosniacs than previous levels. This means Serbs and Bosnians had less R1a to begin with and Croats more than 30%. You need to answer where this R1a is from and you find your answer.

If you compare North Greece with South Greece you will see what they have in common (Greek markers) and see what separates them (possible non-Greek markers). This is what you need to do before comparing levels of G.

Taranis
19-08-11, 14:24
Findings in Treilles are from Neolithe and from first faze of it , when G haplogroup from Caucasus entered Europe , and most of DNA that was finded there was G , only few were I, and that I was I2a1 not I2a2 -Din
. Couldnt it be plausible that some I comed from Caucasus were it is present in Armenia together with G .

Could you cite any evidence that I2a1 is found in Armenia? It's the first time I hear this. From what I know, I2a1 is largely restricted to Western Europe, with the highest concentrations occuring in Sardinia and amongst the Basques.


Sample is to small to draw any conclusions.

Treilles is not the only Neolithic site. There is also Derenburg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000536

As I said, Treilles is a location where today ~70% of the population have R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in that area in the Neolithic, that it turns up zero samples of R1b?

This German site also has almost exclusively Haplogroup G, and for a strange reason, Haplogroup F* (which is a tad surprising but shouldn't be too surprising). Again, this is an area which today has ~40% of the population as R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in the Neolithic in Europe, for this site to turn up zero samples of R1b?

What is the likelihood of not one but two Neolithic sites turning up zero samples of R1b if it purportedly was already present and dominant. I would say VERY low.

The oldest site thus far which turned up R1b in Europe was Lichtenstein Cave in Lower Saxony, which belongs into the Urnfield Culture (circa 1000 BC).


And why would you think there would be preserved paleolitic haplogroups on Balkans which is crossroad of civilisations ( entering point from Asia ) and not in France which is in corner from any movements of nations? Only R1a1a and R1b-M269 could be conected with Indoeuropean movement to Europe . R1b (M73 and V88 ) clearly predate Indoeuropean movement . R1b1b2- Basque haplogroup also predates IE movement, all of it subclades has emerged in Europe , which mean there was no recent movements. R-L23 is 12.000 years old and it is spreaded all over Euroasia.

This has two components: first off, I do believe that paleolithic Haplogroups were preserved in France (9% I2a amongst the Basques certainly isn't a small value). Secondly, I do not believe that the present-day distributions and especially quantities of Haplogroup I were like this throughout the ages. Too much history happened in the meantime for this to work out, especially on the Balkans.


Distribution of R1b -strong on west , weak on east show it had moved from west to east. How did R1b crossed over midle Europe in souch great numbers without leaving any significant trail Rusia 6% , Ukraine 8% , Belarus 10% , Finland only 3,5% ( and up to 30% in Sweden and Norway).And still R1a that acompanied them left souch strong trail in Easter and Midle Europe . Did they have aeroplanes?:smile:You can turn question other way and ask yourself , if R1b realy camed in Europe together with R1a shouldnt there be more R1a in aerias where R1b is strongest :Spain ( 2% ) , Portugale ( 1,5% ) , Belgium (4%) , England ( 4,5%), France (2,5%) , Netherland (6%) ,Ireland (4%) , Scotland (4%) , Italia (2,5%) , Wales ( 3%) .

If you look into the Copper Age, you will notice that the Corded Ware Culture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Corded_Ware_culture.png) did only expand into Central Europe and Scandinavia, but something prevented it from entering into Western Europe. This was the Beaker-Bell Culture, which was near-simultaneous with Corded Ware (though not in all areas). I should add that Corded Ware is already known to have been carriers of R1a (based on samples from Eulau, Germany, from circa 2600 BC).

In my opinion, the Beaker-Bell Culture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png) is the best candidate for explaining the spread of R1b. How did the Beaker culture arrive? Did they use airplanes? :laughing:

I don't know (and I think they obviously didn't), but it's clear that the spread of R1b, more precisely the subclade R1b-L51/M412 (which includes Basque R1b) very much matches that of the Beaker Culture.

In any case it makes a lot sense if I2a1 was already in Europe since (at least) the Neolithic, and that the high concentrations of I2a1 on Sardinia are derived from the indigenous Nuraghic civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuragic_civilization) than from the Vandals who were Sardinia for less than a century. :smile:


How do you explaining I2a2 in Kurds and Pastuni in Afganistan and Pakistan ? And very small percentage in Turkey 4% which conects Balkans with them , and most of it can be explained by moving of Serbs and Croats to Turkey like Yenichar army or by moving whole cities ( like population of Belgrade was moved to Istambul during XVI century , there is yet Belgrade mahala - quarter ).How do you explain that there is more I2a2 in newcomers -Croats and Serbs than in old populations like Romanians , Albanians ,Greeks ? Mesapi in Italy were descendants of Illyrians that crosed Adriatic see , why there is no I2a2 in they aerias - southern Italy ?

I admit, I have no solution for this yet, but I promise I will give this some thought.


Sorry forgot about Finns and Ests , there is another paleolitical haplogroup N1c ( in Europe since 20.000 years ago ) , Hungarians speak Indoeuropean languague with 50 Uralic and 100 Altaic( Turkic) words .

You are wrong about Hungarian. Where do you take from that it's Indo-European?! :petrified: Hungarian is an Uralic language family, but it belongs to a different branch than Finnish and Estonian. The Hungarians (or I should rather say, Magyars) originally lived at the southern edge of the Ural mountains until they migrated into the Pannonian basin circa 9th century AD. It's clear though if you look at modern-day Hungarian Haplogroups that the modern Hungarians are for the greater part descended from the pre-Magyar population that lived there before, because Hungarian Haplogroups are not terribly different from those found in surrounding areas.

This makes a huge point which people tend to forgot: you cannot make 1:1 assocations between languages or language families and haplogroups, and people can swap their languages over time, but they cannot swap their haplogroups.


I believe Iberians moved in Spain 1200 BC acording to Romans.
Thanks for answering .

Could you please show me where you read that. It's the first time I hear that. Besides, where would they come from? As I said, the only language that shows some potential relationship to Iberian is Basque (and the poorly attested Aquitanian language, which may be the same as Old Basque). The problem is that we know too little about Iberian to say if these are Basque borrowing into Iberian, Iberian borrowings into Basque, or that the two languages were part of the same language family. From what I know, the Iberians are generally believed to have their origin in the bronze age El-Argar culture of southeastern Spain.

Bodin
19-08-11, 18:19
And so were the Balkans, the difference between the Slav population in the Balkans is more Slavic R1a as opposed to the Balkanic R1a.
Oldest R1a in Europe is found in Bosnia , Serbia , Macedonia and Montenegro - 11.000 years old , almoust all other R1a in Balkans is 3.500 years old like eveywhere in Europe .
R1a M458 is considered to be Slavic marker , and it makes about 50% of all R1a in Poles , Russians , ... and other Slavs , but only 2,8% of Croatian R1a , 22% of Serbian R1a , 36% of Bosnian R1a , rest of Serbian and Bosnian R1a is Ancient ( 11.000 years old )


The region has been influenced by the Caucasus and the Caucasus has the highest levels of G in the world. Which mountain?
Caucasus chain of mauntins , sorry . It is hard to believe horseriding dwelers of steppes mixed with highlanders from Caucasus .



What is the frequency of G in Serbia? There is more G in Greece and Germany.
2,2 %



Do you always only look at the things you like or want to find. To learn what happened you need to understand the admixtures. An increase in R1b in Serbs and Croats relative to Bosniacs is very relevant. Do you want to make them exactly the same?
I dont won to make them the same , I just said is not that relevant for subject- origins of Serbs , but more for Balkanic admixtures in Serbs . My oppinion about decreased R1b in Bosnia , is that it hapened due to there was more old population killed during movings of nations.

The Croats have 2x more R1a! This is the Slavic R1a and suggests possible diffusion from Croat into the Serb and Bosniac population, pushing R1a higher in Serbs and Bosniacs than previous levels. This means Serbs and Bosnians had less R1a to begin with and Croats more than 30%. You need to answer where this R1a is from and you find your answer.
Croats have more R1a because Slavonia was setled by Slavs and Avars before Croats much longer time than rest of Croatia , Croats taking Slavonia under King Tomislav ( 910-930 ) , also Austrians settled some Kranjci from Slovenia in Croatia . Red Croats use to live in Herzegovina and Montenegro and mixed with Serbs and there is no elevated R1a but I2a2 . Also they lived in west Bosnia (Bosanska Krajina ) before movings from Serbia - there is also not elevated R1a ==> R1a is not Croatian but Slavonian.

If you compare North Greece with South Greece you will see what they have in common (Greek markers) and see what separates them (possible non-Greek markers). This is what you need to do before comparing levels of G. Now your speaking : what Serbs and Croats have in comon I2a2 -Croat-Serbish marker , and what separated them E1b1b1 and J in case of Serbs and R1a and R1b in case of Croats - non Serb-Croatish marker , thats what I talking about all the time .

And if you trying to explain origins of Serbs and Croats you have to knew history of them , otherwise how do you going to explain it

Shetop
19-08-11, 19:10
Yes I am saying that I2a2 is brought mainly by Sarmatians , and in smaller percentage by Slavs and Goths ( both Visi and OstroGoths) due their contacts with Saramatians on north bank of Black see .

If I2a2a-Dinaric (now I2a1b1a) is mostly of Sarmatian origin you should explain how come most of these people speak Slavic languages today (I think there is no reason to believe that they ever spoke any other language)? Maybe you already did explain that in some previous posts? I couldn't read everything.

Bodin
19-08-11, 19:35
QUOTE=Taranis;378348]Could you cite any evidence that I2a1 is found in Armenia? It's the first time I hear this. From what I know, I2a1 is largely restricted to Western Europe, with the highest concentrations occuring in Sardinia and amongst the Basques.
Sorry Armenian I is I2*B . But finding of I2b1 doesnt say nothing of I2a2 , because I2a and I2b separated 20.000 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)
I* is found in low frequencies in Midke east ,Caucasus and Europe(only Slovenia 2/55, Andalusia 3/103 , France 4/179,Saami 1/35 )
I1* in Anatolia at 1%
I2* low frequencies in Georgia , Armenia and Turkey
Like you see most of ancient subclades of are also not found in Europe .
Treilles is not the only Neolithic site. There is also Derenburg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000536
I never said there was no paleolitic I in Europe .Maybe it come from aeria around Vistula river where it has been long time , and later being involved in creation of Vandals .Maybe it is absent from that aeria due to move of whole Vandal tribe infront invading Huns and Slavs . There was Slavic tribe of Lendžani in that aeria of Poland that got they name from living on "ledina " empty / deserted land .Vandals carry it to Basque , Aragon and Sardinia.
As I said, Treilles is a location where today ~70% of the population have R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in that area in the Neolithic, that it turns up zero samples of R1b?
Maybe that was isolated group , maybe R1b still hasnt arived over Pirrinei ?
This German site also has almost exclusively Haplogroup G, and for a strange reason, Haplogroup F* (which is a tad surprising but shouldn't be too surprising). Again, this is an area which today has ~40% of the population as R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in the Neolithic in Europe, for this site to turn up zero samples of R1b?


What is the likelihood of not one but two Neolithic sites turning up zero samples of R1b if it purportedly was already present and dominant. I would say VERY low.
Maybe that was isolated group , maybe R1b still hasnt arived over Pirrinei or even Africa ?

The oldest site thus far which turned up R1b in Europe was Lichtenstein Cave in Lower Saxony, which belongs into the Urnfield Culture (circa 1000 BC).



This has two components: first off, I do believe that paleolithic Haplogroups were preserved in France (9% I2a amongst the Basques certainly isn't a small value). Secondly, I do not believe that the present-day distributions and especially quantities of Haplogroup I were like this throughout the ages. Too much history happened in the meantime for this to work out, especially on the Balkans.
History that hapened in Balkans would only decreas Paleolitic haplogroups not increase it.



If you look into the Copper Age, you will notice that the Corded Ware Culture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Corded_Ware_culture.png) did only expand into Central Europe and Scandinavia, but something prevented it from entering into Western Europe. This was the Beaker-Bell Culture, which was near-simultaneous with Corded Ware (though not in all areas). I should add that Corded Ware is already known to have been carriers of R1a (based on samples from Eulau, Germany, from circa 2600 BC).

In my opinion, the Beaker-Bell Culture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png) is the best candidate for explaining the spread of R1b. How did the Beaker culture arrive? Did they use airplanes? :laughing:

I don't know (and I think they obviously didn't), but it's clear that the spread of R1b, more precisely the subclade R1b-L51/M412 (which includes Basque R1b) very much matches that of the Beaker Culture.
Beaker Bell Culture could also be I2a1.

In any case it makes a lot sense if I2a1 was already in Europe since (at least) the Neolithic, and that the high concentrations of I2a1 on Sardinia are derived from the indigenous Nuraghic civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuragic_civilization) than from the Vandals who were Sardinia for less than a century. :smile:

What do you mean less than a century , if they were ther for century , they couldnt just dissapear after Byzantium ( Justinian ) conquered Sardinia , they would stay there for XV centuries more - untill today .

I admit, I have no solution for this yet, but I promise I will give this some thought.
Please do I find dis discusion very inspiring , you actually convinced me that it could be posible I2a1 was in Europe atleast since Neolite ( 6000 years ago):good_job:



You are wrong about Hungarian. Where do you take from that it's Indo-European?! :petrified: Hungarian is an Uralic language family, but it belongs to a different branch than Finnish and Estonian. The Hungarians (or I should rather say, Magyars) originally lived at the southern edge of the Ural mountains until they migrated into the Pannonian basin circa 9th century AD. It's clear though if you look at modern-day Hungarian Haplogroups that the modern Hungarians are for the greater part descended from the pre-Magyar population that lived there before, because Hungarian Haplogroups are not terribly different from those found in surrounding areas.
Yes Magyar is classified as Uralic languague because basic words ( family members , food ,... about 50 words ) are Uralic , but 99,99% of Magyar is IE loan words . Magyars moved from Ural in about III century AD , somewhere in steppes around Don , that land is called Levadia by their duke Levenda , there they mixed with Alans ( legend about Levenda married Dulo princess of Alans , they have some Alan words like Vert- sword ) . And with Huns and other Turks ( they have 100 words from preOttoman Turkic ) .In IX century was formed aliance of 10 tribes 7 Magyar and 3 Kabir ( Khazars ) which was called Ungor/ Ugar ( 10 arrows in Turkic ) .894 Byzantine emperor Leon VI called Ugars to attack Bulgar emperor Simeon who attacked Byzantium , they raid north Bulgaria , but Simeon called tribe of Pechenegi who use to live on east from Ugri , Pechenegi beated Ugri , and Ugri escaped to Slavic state of Panonia ( Franks vassals ) known also like Balaton principate ,by the legends Slavs didnt object they coming and there was no war , they just exepted Ugar rule . If you are interested in Hungary/ Magyarorsag history I could recomend you some great books.
This makes a huge point which people tend to forgot: you cannot make 1:1 assocations between languages or language families and haplogroups, and people can swap their languages over time, but they cannot swap their haplogroups.
That is exactly what I claiming hapened with Serbs and Croats - they accepted Slavic languague.



Could you please show me where you read that. It's the first time I hear that. Besides, where would they come from? As I said, the only language that shows some potential relationship to Iberian is Basque (and the poorly attested Aquitanian language, which may be the same as Old Basque). The problem is that we know too little about Iberian to say if these are Basque borrowing into Iberian, Iberian borrowings into Basque, or that the two languages were part of the same language family. From what I know, the Iberians are generally believed to have their origin in the bronze age El-Argar culture of southeastern Spain
.[/QUOTE]
Others have suggested that they may have originated in North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa). This portion of the theory is supported by an observation of C. Michael Hogan who points out similarities between Chalcolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic) artefacts in Iberia with Neolithic pottery in parts of Morocco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians#cite_note-1) The Iberians would have initially settled along the eastern coast of Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), and then possibly spread throughout the rest of the Iberian peninsula
-from Wikkipedia (type Iberians., thats only one theory of origin)
I am not realy shore but I believe Paussanias write in his "Description of Hellas " that Iberians came in Iberia from Africa.Thanks for answering:smile:

Bodin
19-08-11, 19:59
If I2a2a-Dinaric (now I2a1b1a) is mostly of Sarmatian origin you should explain how come most of these people speak Slavic languages today (I think there is no reason to believe that they ever spoke any other language)? Maybe you already did explain that in some previous posts? I couldn't read everything.
It is very dificult to explain how so manny people at all speak Slavic , because linguistics find Slavic to keep a lot of ancient characteristics which showing it was spoked by a small group of peoples during a long period . That group was probably around uper stream of Pripyat river ( Slavs do not have words for see or anything asociated with sailing -they are all loaned , so languague has to originate far from see , also by specifick names of trees they had in they languague , and names of trees they loaned it is shown they lived in aeria around upper Pripyat where is found such flora ) . That aeria is where Scythians Ploughers use to live , so they could be ancestors of Slavs.
Yes I did say my explanation about how Saramatians adopted Slavic languague , but I going to repeat it :There is few teories how Serbians and Croats accepted Slavic languague , one that sound most reliable to me is that Sarmatians use to marry Slavic speacking womans while they use to rule over the mases of Slavs around Pripyat - like all Iranians they use to have more then one woman . Since Sarmatians and they womans of Sarmatian origin use to spend most of the time in wars and horsebriding , Slavic wifes look after the childs , so childs have lurned Slavic languague from them .
There is also other theory that Huns use people from Upper Pripyat like befulci ( krajišnici , bordergards) , like Avars use Slavs , so they spreaded they languague in any country they comed like sort of lingua Franca . That certainly hapened in Slovakia and Slovenia where Avars settled Slavs during VI century - maybe on Balkans olso .
Thanks for asking:smile:

Bodin
19-08-11, 20:20
Also to Taranis : if Iberians brought back some R1b from Africa then it would explain some of E V-65 in Europe ( African) - non Neolithic - Balkanic E V-13 , together with migration over see.

Taranis
19-08-11, 20:23
Bodin, I do not want to sound impolite, I would entitle you to reformat your post because it's very awkward to read.

sparkey
19-08-11, 20:31
Sorry Armenian I is I2*B . But finding of I2b1 doesnt say nothing of I2a2 , because I2a and I2b separated 20.000 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_%28Y-DNA))
I* is found in low frequencies in Midke east ,Caucasus and Europe(only Slovenia 2/55, Andalusia 3/103 , France 4/179,Saami 1/35 )
I1* in Anatolia at 1%
I2* low frequencies in Georgia , Armenia and Turkey
Like you see most of ancient subclades of are also not found in Europe .
Treilles is not the only Neolithic site. There is also Derenburg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.

No no no no no! I've already (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26361-R1b-U152-map&p=370635&viewfull=1#post370635) corrected someone (how yes no) on this point. All of Haplogroup I's ancient subclades are found in Europe. There is no known extant I*... all references to it are either outdated or really meant "I, no further subclades tested." The center of diversity of I1 is in Europe (close to Denmark) and the center of diversity of all of I2's subclades are in Europe, including the ones that we find in Asia. I2c (formerly "I2*") for example has three main clusters: I2c-A, which has a center of diversity close to Germany, I2c-C, same thing, and I2c-B, which is the one we find in Asia and is difficult to analyze, but could also have come from near Germany.


Secondly, I do not believe that the present-day distributions and especially quantities of Haplogroup I were like this throughout the ages. Too much history happened in the meantime for this to work out, especially on the Balkans.
History that hapened in Balkans would only decreas Paleolitic haplogroups not increase it.

I2a-Din in particular is interesting in that its center of diversity appears to be north of the Balkans and its TMRCA is very recent, suggesting that even if it is a descendant of Gravettian I, it was displaced from the region, bottlenecked elsewhere, and came back. Paleolithic continuity doesn't hold, as you indicate.

Bodin
19-08-11, 20:56
No no no no no! I've already (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26361-R1b-U152-map&p=370635&viewfull=1#post370635) corrected someone (how yes no) on this point. All of Haplogroup I's ancient subclades are found in Europe. There is no known extant I*... all references to it are either outdated or really meant "I, no further subclades tested." The center of diversity of I1 is in Europe (close to Denmark) and the center of diversity of all of I2's subclades are in Europe, including the ones that we find in Asia. I2c (formerly "I2*") for example has three main clusters: I2c-A, which has a center of diversity close to Germany, I2c-C, same thing, and I2c-B, which is the one we find in Asia and is difficult to analyze, but could also have come from near Germany.



I2a-Din in particular is interesting in that its center of diversity appears to be north of the Balkans and its TMRCA is very recent, suggesting that even if it is a descendant of Gravettian I, it was displaced from the region, bottlenecked elsewhere, and came back. Paleolithic continuity doesn't hold, as you indicate.
So there is posibility it camed after Hunic invasions?

Bodin
19-08-11, 21:01
Bodin, I do not want to sound impolite, I would entitle you to reformat your post because it's very awkward to read.
I would tray

sparkey
19-08-11, 21:15
So there is posibility it camed after Hunic invasions?

You mean I2a-Din? The overall TMRCA is about 2500 years ago, so it's possible I suppose. Certainly, we want to focus on the Classical and Medieval periods to understand it fully.

Shetop
19-08-11, 21:26
It is very dificult to explain how so manny people at all speak Slavic , because linguistics find Slavic to keep a lot of ancient characteristics which showing it was spoked by a small group of peoples during a long period .

Well I have to say I disagree with your theories.

As I and some other people already have written, I believe I2a1b1a is related to emergence of Slavic language around Pripyat Marshes.

Original Serbian tribe may have indeed been Sarmatian (Serboi), but it would only mean that some small group of people of Sarmatian origin (not related to I2a1b1a) transfered their name on much larger Slavic and other groups thus creating Serbian nation.

Bodin
19-08-11, 22:00
You mean I2a-Din? The overall TMRCA is about 2500 years ago, so it's possible I suppose. Certainly, we want to focus on the Classical and Medieval periods to understand it fully.
Finaly someone agreed with me , if you look on my previous posts you will se I was focusing on Medieval and Classical periods , trying to prove that I2a2-Din couldnt be Illyrian . Thanks for answering:good_job:

Bodin
19-08-11, 22:17
Well I have to say I disagree with your theories.

As I and some other people already have written, I believe I2a1b1a is related to emergence of Slavic language around Pripyat Marshes.

Original Serbian tribe may have indeed been Sarmatian (Serboi), but it would only mean that some small group of people of Sarmatian origin (not related to I2a1b1a) transfered their name on much larger Slavic and other groups thus creating Serbian nation.
So you trying to say that all Slavic nations Russians , Poles , ... who are mainly R1a are acctualy not Slavic ( I2a1b1a ) , and only Serbs and Croats are Slavic , aldo they ruling class is olso not Slavic but Sarmatian -Serboi and Heruatai .
Maybe your theory is true but like S.Holmes say simplest is usualy true:smile:
How do you explain this :
1)Other higher than average densities occur in the Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus): Darginians of Dagestan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagestan) 58% and Abkhazians 33%[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Nasidze_Ivan_et_al._2004_205.E2.80.93221-6)
From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)
2)North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) , G is probably Meotian and Colhidian.
3) 25% of I2a2-Din in Kurds
There is no proof any of these aerias was settled by Slavs

Shetop
19-08-11, 22:27
So you trying to say that all Slavic nations Russians , Poles , ... who are mainly R1a are acctualy not Slavic ( I2a1b1a ) , and only Serbs and Croats are Slavic , aldo they ruling class is olso not Slavic but Sarmatian -Serboi and Heruatai .
Maybe your theory is true but like S.Holmes say simplest is usualy true:smile:
How do you explain this :
1)Other higher than average densities occur in the Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus): Darginians of Dagestan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagestan) 58% and Abkhazians 33%[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Nasidze_Ivan_et_al._2004_205.E2.80.93221-6)
From:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)
2)North of Caucasus -Sarmatia untill II century AD there is strong I2a2 in some aerias of North Ossetia:: Digora 13% , Ardon 32% , Zil ga 0%, Zamankul 0% , Alagir 0% ,; there is also strong K2 Digora 0% , Ardon 7% , Zil ga 13% , Zamankul 21,7% , Alagir 8,3%( from Turks) . Strongest is the G 21-74% but that is the case in whole Caucasus ( race of goatbriders , populate all high mountins ) , G is probably Meotian and Colhidian.
3) 25% of I2a2-Din in Kurds
There is no proof any of these aerias was settled by Slavs

There is no 25% I2a2-Din in Kurds. You have wrong data.
High percentage in Dagestan also means nothing because we don't no which subclade is it I2a1b1a or not. For example next closest clade to I2a1b1a clade is found in Great Britain and I think nowhere else.

Only one symbol in subclade notation means completely different population. Meaning geographical distribution and different history also. That is of course since the time of their common ancestor. Meaning I2a1b1a could be called Slavic but I2a1b1 can't.

The way you are looking at these issues is not deep enough. But I have to say I had the same problems when I first came in contact with haplogroups and more important their subclades.

sparkey
19-08-11, 23:01
Finaly someone agreed with me , if you look on my previous posts you will se I was focusing on Medieval and Classical periods , trying to prove that I2a2-Din couldnt be Illyrian . Thanks for answering:good_job:

To be clear, I was conceding a possibility rather than agreeing. We're getting down to such minute differences in timeframe and diversity within I2a-Din STR data that it's hard to say if it was principally Illyrian, or resulted from a later Slavic expansion, or what. What we do know with some amount of confidence is that current I2a-Din is only about 2500 years old, that it has expanded a lot, and that it has a center of diversity that seems to be north of the Balkans (how yes no had a good post on that here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25801-Sarmatians-Serbs-Croats-and-I2a2&p=366333&viewfull=1#post366333)).

Ancient DNA samples of Illyrians would be helpful here.

zanipolo
19-08-11, 23:13
What Bodin is trying to say if I understood him correctly is that I2a2 was brought into the balkans by the Sarmatians/slavs and that the Illyrian/balkan area was already R1a

So, while I agree that no marker should be assigned as a cultural marker , example R1a is a slavic marker ????

I disagree with Bodin on the I2a2 issue. I think both I2a2 and Ria was in the balkans pre bronze age.

Shetop
19-08-11, 23:19
I disagree with Bodin on the I2a2 issue. I think both I2a2 and Ria was in the balkans pre bronze age.

I believe Bodin has a point here - Illyrians and other Balkan groups were moving to Italy before Common Era. Magna Graecia is just one example. But compared to E-V13 we don't see enough I2a1b1a or R1a in any of these Italian regions today.

sparkey
19-08-11, 23:22
I disagree with Bodin on the I2a2 issue. I think both I2a2 and Ria was in the balkans pre bronze age.

Now THAT I find unlikely. If I2a-Din was in the Balkans pre-Bronze Age, then it probably got totally displaced or bottlenecked to a single individual elsewhere circa 2,500 years ago. That, combined with the fact that we've yet to find a Neolithic sample with it in it, makes me think that it was a rare lineage until at least the Classical Age, and wouldn't have really defined any population.

Probably, Neolithic Haplogroup I in the Balkans was mostly proto-I2a1a and maybe something like proto-I2b-ADR... things that have been mostly displaced by modern expanding I2a-Din.

Shetop
19-08-11, 23:36
I think this map of Slavic migrations to Balkans (V-VII century) was proposed by one Croatian historian. It could well explain how did I2a1b1a came to Balkans (through Romania):

http://img600.imageshack.us/img600/6750/slavenidoseljenje.jpg

sparkey
19-08-11, 23:52
I think this map of Slavic migrations to Balkans (V-VII century) was proposed by one Croatian historian. It could well explain how did I2a1b1a came to Balkans (through Romania):

Without looking, if this expansion pattern was true, we would expect I2a-Din to increase in frequency Ukraine -> Romania -> Serbia and increase in diversity Serbia -> Romania -> Ukraine. Looking, the frequency pattern seems to hold, although I can't find a diversity analysis for I2a-Din in Romania (not enough data). BUT Ukraine seems to have an interesting diversity hotspot, via Battaglia et al. So, plausible. But if the Illyrian rather than Slavic model is true, are we guaranteed that the migration pattern would be different?

Shetop
20-08-11, 00:06
Without looking, if this expansion pattern was true, we would expect I2a-Din to increase in frequency Ukraine -> Romania -> Serbia and increase in diversity Serbia -> Romania -> Ukraine. Looking, the frequency pattern seems to hold, although I can't find a diversity analysis for I2a-Din in Romania (not enough data). BUT Ukraine seems to have an interesting diversity hotspot, via Battaglia et al. So, plausible. But if the Illyrian rather than Slavic model is true, are we guaranteed that the migration pattern would be different?

I recognize you are trying to stick to methods provided by genetic science. I admit that my conclusions are not that "pure". Migration pattern I proposed is a result of several heterogeneous arguments which I find important and beside genetics they are very much based on what I learned from historical science, but also from my interest in ethnographical groups existing in the region.

Bodin
20-08-11, 03:06
There is no 25% I2a2-Din in Kurds. You have wrong data.
High percentage in Dagestan also means nothing because we don't no which subclade is it I2a1b1a or not. For example next closest clade to I2a1b1a clade is found in Great Britain and I think nowhere else.

Only one symbol in subclade notation means completely different population. Meaning geographical distribution and different history also. That is of course since the time of their common ancestor. Meaning I2a1b1a could be called Slavic but I2a1b1 can't.

The way you are looking at these issues is not deep enough. But I have to say I had the same problems when I first came in contact with haplogroups and more important their subclades.
there is 20% of I in Kurdistan by Eupedia data and it is I2a2
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
there is also other data that says there is 25% I in Turkic Kurdistan . But what is important there was not Slavic settlement in Asia Minor that I am avare of , and I do know history.
Believe subclade in Dagestan , Abhazia and North Ossetia is same like on Balkans, Moldavia , Romania , Czech , Slovakia, Ukraine and in Kurdistan .
I would ask again because you havent answered me last time , do you saying Russians are not Slavic ( over 50% R1a , no I2a2 -Din ) ? Please answer this time if you
won to give some weight to your theory. I dont understand why do you avoid this answer:confused2:

Bodin
20-08-11, 03:09
What Bodin is trying to say if I understood him correctly is that I2a2 was brought into the balkans by the Sarmatians/slavs and that the Illyrian/balkan area was already R1a

So, while I agree that no marker should be assigned as a cultural marker , example R1a is a slavic marker ????

I disagree with Bodin on the I2a2 issue. I think both I2a2 and Ria was in the balkans pre bronze age.
I believe I already asked you to calculate percent of Balkanic population before Hunic migration ( IV century AD ) in today population of Serbia and present score .Please do this time

Shetop
20-08-11, 10:24
there is 20% of I in Kurdistan by Eupedia data and it is I2a2
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
there is also other data that says there is 25% I in Turkic Kurdistan . But what is important there was not Slavic settlement in Asia Minor that I am avare of , and I do know history.
Believe subclade in Dagestan , Abhazia and North Ossetia is same like on Balkans, Moldavia , Romania , Czech , Slovakia, Ukraine and in Kurdistan .
I would ask again because you havent answered me last time , do you saying Russians are not Slavic ( over 50% R1a , no I2a2 -Din ) ? Please answer this time if you
won to give some weight to your theory. I dont understand why do you avoid this answer:confused2:

I'm not avoiding anything.

Sure, Russians are Slavic speaking nation today.
And sure, large part of R1a took part in Slavic ethnogenesis in antiquity. I see no problem in scenario where genetically mixed populations forms linguistically related groups. Same thing can be said for I1 and R-U106 which are both attributed Germanic.

But in antiquity North of Slavic homeland on a huge territory lived Balts and Finno-Ugrians. Where are these people today?

Also there of course is I2a2a-Dinaric among Russians, 15-20%.

And I don't understand why should I believe that "I subclade" found in Dagestan is the same as in Balkans. Because you say so?

Bodin
20-08-11, 18:24
http://vigg.academia.edu/Khttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/Szj9Ix1Y8aI/AAAAAAAACFw/2HfE-Eqi8KA/s1600/caciagli.pngazimaBulayeva/Papers/125870/The_key_role_of_patrilineal_inheritance_in_shaping _the_genetic_variation_of_Dagestan_highlanders (http://vigg.academia.edu/KazimaBulayeva/Papers/125870/The_key_role_of_patrilineal_inheritance_in_shaping _the_genetic_variation_of_Dagestan_highlanders)
http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2156-9-47.pdf
These abowe show that I is comon in Caucasus, and I2a2 is present only in Southwestern Russia - Sarmatian aerias , ancient Russian sites Vladymir , Ryazan ,... showed even biger percent of R1a up to 80% all of Russia has 10% I2a2 wher did you get 20% :
I2a2 (formerly I1b) is typical of the Dinaric Slavs (Croats, Serbs and Bosniaks). Its highest density is observed around ex-Yugoslavia and Moldova, but it is also common to a lower extent in Albania, Northern Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Ukraine, Belarus, and southwestern Russia.
This Russian site say that I among Dasgins is actualy I2a2
I2a2 (snp M423) типична для населения юго-восточной Европы. Наиболее высокая плотность — в Далмации (Хорватия) и Боснии-Герцеговине (>50 %). Предполагается, что в этой области на Динарском нагорье эта ветвь и произошла из I2a около 7500 лет назад. Чаще всего гаплогруппа I2a2 встречается среди славянских народов (особенно южнославянских), а также найдена среди румын, молдаван, венгров, южных литовцев, албанцев, греков, жителей северо-востока Италии, в западной Анатолии и на Северном Кавказе.
Hier Serbs , Slovenians and Bulgars are clustered with Lesgins from Dagestan in MDS and rest of Balkanic are not it is small sample but it tell a story :
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/11/multidimensional-scaling-in-italy.html
Dargins have highest I -58% in whole world after Herzegovina.
Ther is I2a in Armenia to:
The common ancestor of the seven Armenian I2*'s lived approximately 4,500 years ago.

Here's the most recent post on this subject by Ken Nordtvedt: "The I2* cluster is an enigma because overall I2* is probably the strangest haplogroup in Hg I. I2* is generally spread across every quarter of Europe except noticeably light in Scandinavia. I2* has a strong and much older Armenian/Turkish presence and shows up elsewhere in the MidEast/Levant. Because of the bias of our good databases, however, an objective statement of its relative strength across this vast span of territory can not yet be made. But no other subhaplogroup of I is so lacking in geographical concentration. And I2* is old in the time back to its TMRCA --- only being challenged as oldest Hg I clade by I2a1 M26+ Sardinian." With regards to the I2a branch, I am more and more enclined to believe it represents one of the major genetic components of the Indo-European speaking "Armen" people, themselves part of the Phrygian people, who came into Anatolia from the West around 1,300 B.C. As per Dr. Roy King: " ... Assyrians and Armenians are practically identical [genetically] except for language which must be reflected in the I2 and perhaps E1b1b1a-V13 frequencies for the Indo-European superstratum. This is interesting in that it suggests that the Indo-European Armenian speakers came from the Balkans rather than via the Caucasus."
Link for that:http://www.familytreedna.com/public/ArmeniaDNAProject/default.aspx?section=news
Sorry couldnt find anymore data , because Dagestan is not that much tested.
About Balts and Finno ugric : Balts are in the same place they allways use to be - Lithuania , Litva , North east Poland ( Prussi , Mazuri ,... ) and north east Russia , Finno Ugric are in Northeast Russia ( mari , Kommi , ... ) , Finland and Estonia and they are represented by N1c which is in Europe since 20.000 years ago .
About strong I2a2 in upper Pripyat it could be explained by setling of White Croats in IX century ( patriarch Nicophorus of Constantinopolis write about escape of parts of Serbs and Croats from Balkans infront of Franks ) -they hill forts are present since IX century up to XI century .
All of I2a2 amongs slavic populations can be explained by Sarmatian settlement , Serboi and Heruatai were Sarmatian tribes , and where they goes I2a2 follow .

Bodin
20-08-11, 18:39
Could you cite any evidence that I2a1 is found in Armenia? It's the first time I hear this. From what I know, I2a1 is largely restricted to Western Europe, with the highest concentrations occuring in Sardinia and amongst the Basques.



Treilles is not the only Neolithic site. There is also Derenburg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000536

As I said, Treilles is a location where today ~70% of the population have R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in that area in the Neolithic, that it turns up zero samples of R1b?

This German site also has almost exclusively Haplogroup G, and for a strange reason, Haplogroup F* (which is a tad surprising but shouldn't be too surprising). Again, this is an area which today has ~40% of the population as R1b. What is the likelihood, if R1b was already present in the Neolithic in Europe, for this site to turn up zero samples of R1b?

What is the likelihood of not one but two Neolithic sites turning up zero samples of R1b if it purportedly was already present and dominant. I would say VERY low.

The oldest site thus far which turned up R1b in Europe was Lichtenstein Cave in Lower Saxony, which belongs into the Urnfield Culture (circa 1000 BC).



This has two components: first off, I do believe that paleolithic Haplogroups were preserved in France (9% I2a amongst the Basques certainly isn't a small value). Secondly, I do not believe that the present-day distributions and especially quantities of Haplogroup I were like this throughout the ages. Too much history happened in the meantime for this to work out, especially on the Balkans.



If you look into the Copper Age, you will notice that the Corded Ware Culture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Corded_Ware_culture.png) did only expand into Central Europe and Scandinavia, but something prevented it from entering into Western Europe. This was the Beaker-Bell Culture, which was near-simultaneous with Corded Ware (though not in all areas). I should add that Corded Ware is already known to have been carriers of R1a (based on samples from Eulau, Germany, from circa 2600 BC).

In my opinion, the Beaker-Bell Culture (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ea/Beaker_culture.png) is the best candidate for explaining the spread of R1b. How did the Beaker culture arrive? Did they use airplanes? :laughing:

I don't know (and I think they obviously didn't), but it's clear that the spread of R1b, more precisely the subclade R1b-L51/M412 (which includes Basque R1b) very much matches that of the Beaker Culture.

In any case it makes a lot sense if I2a1 was already in Europe since (at least) the Neolithic, and that the high concentrations of I2a1 on Sardinia are derived from the indigenous Nuraghic civilization (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuragic_civilization) than from the Vandals who were Sardinia for less than a century. :smile:



I admit, I have no solution for this yet, but I promise I will give this some thought.



You are wrong about Hungarian. Where do you take from that it's Indo-European?! :petrified: Hungarian is an Uralic language family, but it belongs to a different branch than Finnish and Estonian. The Hungarians (or I should rather say, Magyars) originally lived at the southern edge of the Ural mountains until they migrated into the Pannonian basin circa 9th century AD. It's clear though if you look at modern-day Hungarian Haplogroups that the modern Hungarians are for the greater part descended from the pre-Magyar population that lived there before, because Hungarian Haplogroups are not terribly different from those found in surrounding areas.

This makes a huge point which people tend to forgot: you cannot make 1:1 assocations between languages or language families and haplogroups, and people can swap their languages over time, but they cannot swap their haplogroups.



Could you please show me where you read that. It's the first time I hear that. Besides, where would they come from? As I said, the only language that shows some potential relationship to Iberian is Basque (and the poorly attested Aquitanian language, which may be the same as Old Basque). The problem is that we know too little about Iberian to say if these are Basque borrowing into Iberian, Iberian borrowings into Basque, or that the two languages were part of the same language family. From what I know, the Iberians are generally believed to have their origin in the bronze age El-Argar culture of southeastern Spain.

Hier is reformated post like you ask me to do , hope this one would be more understandable :
Sorry Armenian I is I2*B . But finding of I2b1 doesnt say nothing of I2a2 , because I2a and I2b separated 20.000 years ago.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_I_(Y-DNA)
I* is found in low frequencies in Midke east ,Caucasus and Europe(only Slovenia 2/55, Andalusia 3/103 , France 4/179,Saami 1/35 )
I1* in Anatolia at 1%
I2* low frequencies in Georgia , Armenia and Turkey
Like you see most of ancient subclades of are also not found in Europe .
Treilles is not the only Neolithic site. There is also Derenburg in Saxony-Anhalt, Germany.

http://www.plosbiology.org/article/i...l.pbio.1000536 (http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pbio.1000536)
I never said there was no paleolitic I in Europe .Maybe it come from aeria around Vistula river where it has been long time , and later being involved in creation of Vandals .Maybe it is absent from that aeria due to move of whole Vandal tribe infront invading Huns and Slavs . There was Slavic tribe of Lendžani in that aeria of Poland that got they name from living on "ledina " empty / deserted land .Vandals carry it to Basque , Aragon and Sardinia.

Beaker Bell Culture could also be I2a1.

What do you mean Vandals were on Sardinia less than a century , if they were ther for century , they couldnt just dissapear after Byzantium ( Justinian ) conquered Sardinia , they would stay there for XV centuries more - untill today .
Yes Magyar is classified as Uralic languague because basic words ( family members , food ,... about 50 words ) are Uralic , but 99,99% of Magyar is IE loan words . Magyars moved from Ural in about III century AD , somewhere in steppes around Don , that land is called Levadia by their duke Levenda , there they mixed with Alans ( legend about Levenda married Dulo princess of Alans , they have some Alan words like Vert- sword ) . And with Huns and other Turks ( they have 100 words from preOttoman Turkic ) .In IX century was formed aliance of 10 tribes 7 Magyar and 3 Kabir ( Khazars ) which was called Ungor/ Ugar ( 10 arrows in Turkic ) .894 Byzantine emperor Leon VI called Ugars to attack Bulgar emperor Simeon who attacked Byzantium , they raid north Bulgaria , but Simeon called tribe of Pechenegi who use to live on east from Ugri , Pechenegi beated Ugri , and Ugri escaped to Slavic state of Panonia ( Franks vassals ) known also like Balaton principate ,by the legends Slavs didnt object they coming and there was no war , they just exepted Ugar rule . If you are interested in Hungary/ Magyarorsag history I could recomend you some great books.as
About no R1b in Neolithic sites : maybe R1b was yet in Iberia , and latter spread to France , especially Germany .

"Others have suggested that they may have originated in North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa). This portion of the theory is supported by an observation of C. Michael Hogan who points out similarities between Chalcolithic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic) artefacts in Iberia with Neolithic pottery in parts of Morocco (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Morocco).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberians#cite_note-1) The Iberians would have initially settled along the eastern coast of Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), and then possibly spread throughout the rest of the Iberian peninsula "
-from Wikkipedia (type Iberians., thats only one theory of origin)
I am not realy shore but I believe Paussanias write in his "Description of Hellas " that Iberians came in Iberia from Africa.Thanks for answering:smile:

Shetop
20-08-11, 19:11
all of Russia has 10% I2a2 wher did you get 20%

You percentage appears closer to reality. I was to fast with my statement about Russia, I just wanted to say that I2a2a-Dinaric exists in Russia. 10% or 12% out of 120 million is more than 12 million. Probably a bit more than in Balkans.

About Caucasus - I never saw data in any study which shows that I2a2a-Dinaric has significant presence there.

Bodin
20-08-11, 21:47
You percentage appears closer to reality. I was to fast with my statement about Russia, I just wanted to say that I2a2a-Dinaric exists in Russia. 10% or 12% out of 120 million is more than 12 million. Probably a bit more than in Balkans.

About Caucasus - I never saw data in any study which shows that I2a2a-Dinaric has significant presence there.
You cannt calculate the numbers , Russia is lot wider aeria with lot more space to populate . In Russia there is lot biger number of Sarmatian tribes and in Balkans only two : Serbs and Croats. Some of them stayed in Boiki ( Bohemia , Bavaria and parts of Saxonia Anhalt - Lusitania)-Serbs , and Croats in Moravia and Czech where they were before coming on Balkans . Some of them leaved Balkans during IX century and settled Red Ruthenia ( northwest Ukraine , southwest Belarus ) -Rusini-Serbs , or White Croatia ( Lviv district in Ukraine , Tatras in Slovakia , and Krakow region in Poland ) . Dušan empire use to have same population like contemporary England , but now England have 58 000 000 and whole of Greece( , Macedonia ,Albania and whole Serbia ( not whole in empire)

Shetop
20-08-11, 22:12
In Russia there is lot biger number of Sarmatian tribes and in Balkans only two : Serbs and Croats.

I was there where you are now: My abandoning of Sarmatian theory (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25801-Sarmatians-Serbs-Croats-and-I2a2&p=359514&viewfull=1#post359514)

Bodin
20-08-11, 23:21
I was there where you are now: My abandoning of Sarmatian theory (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25801-Sarmatians-Serbs-Croats-and-I2a2&p=359514&viewfull=1#post359514)
Sory I make a mistake and send only half of message last time , this is whole of it :
You shouldnt calculate numbers from percents because Russia is lot wider region then Balkan - lot more food and space which are conditions for faster spreading of population . Also there was lot of Sarmatian nations( Yazigi , Alani , Yazigi , Roxolani , Yaxamatae, Asii,...) , and on Balkans there is only 2 : Serbs and Croats . And some of them left behind in Boiki ( Bavaria , Bohemia , Lusitania -Lužica) -Serbs and some in Moravia and Czech - Croats . During IX century some Croats moved to White Croatia ( Slovakian Tatras , Lviv region in Ukraine , and Krakow region in Poland = Galicia ) , and some Serbs moved to Red Ruthenia ( Northwest Ukraine and Southwest Belarus ) .Dušans empire use to have same population like conterporary England , but today UK have 58 000 000 and Serbia ( not whole in empire ) , Greece ( not whole in empire ) , Macedonia and Albania has only 25 000 000 . Also during I WW died 1/4 of population of lands of former Yugoslavia , and during II WW 1/4 more
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap
Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).
Which studies about Caucasus had you looked?
Thanks for answering . Are theories ard basicaly same , there is only thing thet separate them who brought I2a2 on Balkan Sarmatians , or protoSlavs around Pripyat.
You had make mistake abandoning good theory , when do you plan to abandon heresy and go back to real values?:smile:-Joke

zanipolo
21-08-11, 00:49
Sory I make a mistake and send only half of message last time , this is whole of it :
You shouldnt calculate numbers from percents because Russia is lot wider region then Balkan - lot more food and space which are conditions for faster spreading of population . Also there was lot of Sarmatian nations( Yazigi , Alani , Yazigi , Roxolani , Yaxamatae, Asii,...) , and on Balkans there is only 2 : Serbs and Croats . And some of them left behind in Boiki ( Bavaria , Bohemia , Lusitania -Lužica) -Serbs and some in Moravia and Czech - Croats . During IX century some Croats moved to White Croatia ( Slovakian Tatras , Lviv region in Ukraine , and Krakow region in Poland = Galicia ) , and some Serbs moved to Red Ruthenia ( Northwest Ukraine and Southwest Belarus ) .Dušans empire use to have same population like conterporary England , but today UK have 58 000 000 and Serbia ( not whole in empire ) , Greece ( not whole in empire ) , Macedonia and Albania has only 25 000 000 . Also during I WW died 1/4 of population of lands of former Yugoslavia , and during II WW 1/4 more
http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap
Go on this thread and you will find out that I2a2 -Din north is present in Caucasus ,Kurdistan even in Kazahstan and Pacistan -Afganistan and I2a2 -Din in Balkans ,west Turkey, Midle and east Europe. ( Choose that haplogroups on map , there is also all other I2 haplogroups ).
Which studies about Caucasus had you looked?
Thanks for answering . Are theories ard basicaly same , there is only thing thet separate them who brought I2a2 on Balkan Sarmatians , or protoSlavs around Pripyat.
You had make mistake abandoning good theory , when do you plan to abandon heresy and go back to real values?:smile:-Joke

So that I may ubderstand you, you are saying that the serbians are the sarmatians who carry I2a2 and that the illyrians ( in the north) of the bronze and iron ages are R1a. Since the Romans and greeks historians did not know of any slavic people in their sphere of the world, then I cannot doubt you in saying that the serbians could be sarmatians. On the other hand Scytians which became hunnic and that huns are magyar.
What where the goths, vandals and burgundians , I1a ?

Its strange that in the last 20 years, slovenes, croatians and now serbians are saying that they where never slavic.
it seems that historians in the dark ages that noted that slavi where only russians could be correct.

Bodin
21-08-11, 03:17
So that I may ubderstand you, you are saying that the serbians are the sarmatians who carry I2a2 and that the illyrians ( in the north) of the bronze and iron ages are R1a. Since the Romans and greeks historians did not know of any slavic people in their sphere of the world, then I cannot doubt you in saying that the serbians could be sarmatians. On the other hand Scytians which became hunnic and that huns are magyar.
What where the goths, vandals and burgundians , I1a ?

Its strange that in the last 20 years, slovenes, croatians and now serbians are saying that they where never slavic.
it seems that historians in the dark ages that noted that slavi where only russians could be correct.
Yes I am saying Serbs ( and Croats to ) are Saramatians , atleast it looks most probable to me from all theories. And yes I believe main Sarmatian gene was I2a2 , but they probably had lesser percent of R1a , G, J2, Q , and E1b1b , and only in Serbian case N and maybe some K2 ( aldo some researches hasnt find any K2 in Serbs ) .
Illyrians were probably E1b1b( strongest) , R1a , R1b ( some of mixing with Celts and some from Asia Minor ) , G , J, I2*B ,Q ,L and T .
I believe European Scythians mainly becamed Slavs - strong R1a .
Huns are definetly of Azian Scythians - Saka , atleast parts of them. Magyars are just partially Huns , and partially Finnic ( not from Finland but Uralic group of peoples ) . Descedants of Huns are also partially Bulgars ( all of them , Balcanic , and ones in Russia ) , also Bulgars are partially Sarmatian .Descendants of Huns were also Khazars ( Hunic tribe Akatziroi) . Also some nations on northern ridge of Caucasus has partially Hunic origin.
Goths , and Burgundians mainly I1a with some R1a , and R1b like in Sweden. Vandals maybe I1a , maybe R1a and what I would guess I2a1-M26 on Sardinia , but that is realy under ?
Well it is not realy since 20 years Pop Dukljanin Anales writer from XII century( oldest preserved native historiographer ) claims that Serbs and Croats are Gots - and Alans and Sarmats were few centuries under Gothic rule , so maybe they accepted they name .
Also historian from XVI century Josif Rajačić say that before Serbians have moved to Bohemia from where they come on Balkans , they use to live on banks of Meotian lake ( Azov see ) - same spot where Pliny placing Serboi.
Well not realy , Poles , Czechs , Slovaks , Slovenians are Slavs , and each of them is constituted of several Slavic nations . Even on Balkans is settled several Slavic nations : Severyani and 6 other Slavic tribes in Bulgaria ; Yezeriti and Milinzi on Peloponesus (Milinzi could be Serbs , because there was Serbian tribe of Milinčani - but these is only wild guess based on similarity of names ) ; Berziti , in FYR Macedonia ; Strimoni and Smolyani in Greek Thracia ; Draguviti, Rinhini , Sagudati ,Velegeziti and Vajuniti in Greek Macedonia ; Timočani and Moravlyani in east Serbia . Thanks for answering

Bodin
21-08-11, 04:17
I was there where you are now: My abandoning of Sarmatian theory (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25801-Sarmatians-Serbs-Croats-and-I2a2&p=359514&viewfull=1#post359514)
I would like to know why you had abandoned theory of Sarmathian origin of Serbs , maybe it would change something in my oppinion by providing new perspective. I folowed your link , but havent find anything that would change your theory .Except it is what that guy ( imperorum romanorum or something like that ) said that Iranians are Assyrians , thats not truth , you know ? :)- Joke
I also readed all post in thread about Serbian and Croatian Sarmatian origins , and havent find anything that would change my maind , it acctualy strenghtened my views , so if you can post reasons why do you believe I2a2 is Slavic.

Shetop
21-08-11, 10:38
I also readed all post in thread about Serbian and Croatian Sarmatian origins , and havent find anything that would change my maind , it acctualy strenghtened my views , so if you can post reasons why do you believe I2a2 is Slavic.

I don't think I can write something new and change your mind. More or less I wrote everything i had to say on different topics on eupedia forum. But bottom line could be this:

Sarmatian theory is based only on the tribe name and understanding events in history teaches us that large groups of people did adopt new names in various processes, which I believe was the case with Serbs also.

Slavic theory is based on language - it is hard to explain that so numerous and wide spread groups of people didn't at least partly preserve their language if they were of Sarmatian origin. On the other side most of them do speak Slavic languages today.

Understanding Slavic archeological cultures from early middle ages is also of great importance, and maybe particularly Ipotesti-Candesti.

Bodin
21-08-11, 20:13
I don't think I can write something new and change your mind. More or less I wrote everything i had to say on different topics on eupedia forum. But bottom line could be this:

Sarmatian theory is based only on the tribe name and understanding events in history teaches us that large groups of people did adopt new names in various processes, which I believe was the case with Serbs also.

Slavic theory is based on language - it is hard to explain that so numerous and wide spread groups of people didn't at least partly preserve their language if they were of Sarmatian origin. On the other side most of them do speak Slavic languages today.

Understanding Slavic archeological cultures from early middle ages is also of great importance, and maybe particularly Ipotesti-Candesti.
Point of any discusion I believe to be is to take another viewpoint on your own theories , to reinforce or abandone your theory based on facts , and sharing of facts is crucial for that . And I would quote Aristotelus : " Only fool never changes its oppinion ". So I am ready to change it if I face hard evidence ( that I cannt show antrue). So there is possibility you can say something that would change my mind.
I believe Sarmatian theory not to be based only on a name , there is also a lot of similarities ( Slavs usualy lived on banks of big rivers -Serbs and Croats settled on Dinaric mountains , Serbs and Croatische national clotes do not resemble Slavic- exept in parts of Voyvodina and Slavonia but do resemble clotes of some parts of Iran , Slavic main deity was Perun - thundergod , while ancestor of all Serbs - by legend and main deity of Serbs is Daybog - one that brings culture , similar to German Wotan , some time Serbs and Slavs call him Voden ,...)
Egzactly Slavic theory is based solely on languague , now I going to use you own proof against you " it is hard to explain that so numerous and wide spread groups of people didn't at least partly preserve their language " , than how could it happened that R1a ( five times more numerous than I2a2 in Slavs) wouldnt preserve they own languague , instead they speacking I2a2 langugue.

Archeology shows that only in VI century there is proof of Slavic architecture on west Balkans ( one of it is village near Višegrad on Drina) , in later centuries there is no proof of Slavs on west Balkans- so called Archeological blank . If you look archeological sites of confirmed Slavs , like Kiev or village next to Višegrad , or Balaton in Hungary ,in Walachia in Romania ... you will se that they houses are partialy under ground made of wood and mud- so called zemunica , they villages are always on big rivers banks , they burn they deads and burry they ashes with no artefacts , thay use big curved one head axes and small trowing spears ,... Serbs and Croats findings are totaly diferent : they houses are made of stone and cowered with stone plates or bark of trees surounded with many smaller objects like stables , some of this objects are on slades - so they could be moved , they villages are always on mountains few miles from nearest river ( small or big ) ,Croats burry they deads without burning with a lot of artefacts , in round pits , in fetus position - like Yaziges in Banat during Avaric Khaganate , Serbs burn they deads , and puting ashes in specially builded litlle houses made of dried grass and woods , with lot of artefacts and food - similar to Ants burial customs in Moldavia ( it is believed Stećci -memorial stones in shape of house from Herzegovina mimic those burial houses), Serbs and Croats use twoheaded axes - like Sarmatians and long fighting spears .
Thanks for answering

Goga
21-08-11, 20:48
Here is the list of ancient Iranian peoples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples

According to this list Lazyges clan was part of the Samartian tribe. Lazyges folks lived not far from the Balkans.

Here is the map where you can find this Lazyges clan.

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/6451/romanempire.jpg

Shetop
21-08-11, 21:02
So I am ready to change it if I face hard evidence ( that I cannt show antrue).

I don't have hard evidence. If such evidence would exist we would not have this discussion.

Research a bit how did French, English, Hungarian, Bulgarian and Russian people got their names. I think similar thing happened with Serbs and Croats.

Bodin
21-08-11, 22:03
Here is the list of ancient Iranian peoples:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Iranian_peoples

According to this list Lazyges clan was part of the Samartian tribe. Lazyges folks lived not far from the Balkans.

Here is the map where you can find this Lazyges clan.

http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/5606/sarmatae.png
Thanks for the list . Iranian is again more linguistic then ethnic name.
Look on that list there is nation Corduene - ancestors of Kurds , look at name of they king from 69 BC it is Zarbienus , if you remove latin transcription you would get Srbljen -Srbin . This is not acctualy evidendce , Sar sufix is very common in IE languagues but it could be clue .
I believe you maked mistake it is not L but I - Iazyges on Latin ( I is english Y or Serbian J) , they were first to move westward of all Sarmatians and settled in Banat ( Romanian and Serbian ) .

Bodin
21-08-11, 22:29
I don't have hard evidence. If such evidence would exist we would not have this discussion.

Research a bit how did French, English, Hungarian, Bulgarian and Russian people got their names. I think similar thing happened with Serbs and Croats.
We have discussion to get to some evidence.
French get they name from ruling class of Franks , it is first name for Austrasia ( Frankonia in Deutschland - named after Franks , and they mainly descendants of Franks ) and Neustria ( Ill d France - aeria around Paris , also mainly populated by descendants of Franks ) , and only later it has spreaded on whole France state.
English get they name by Angli tribe , and they genetic contribution in England is not small at all - R1b - U106 is also Germanic , not only I1 and I2b .
Hungarians get they name by Turkic word Ungor/Ugor which mean 10 arows representing union of 7 Magyar tribes and 3 Kabiri tribes ( Kabiri- part of Khazars ) , they call themselves Magyars and state Magyarorsag . Yes they have low N frequency , but original Magyars were probably partially Q , R1a ( mainly Turkic R1a ) , and J2 from Khorazm ( also Turkic) . And Kabiri mostly R1a ( Slavic/ Scythian) , G2a and J2 .
Bulgarians get they name to Volga river , and us to be called like that since they are entered history . I dont know they ever changed they name , if you know please share , I would like to know that .
Russians get they name by rulling class of Varingians ( Ruotsi is Finnic name for Sweden ) , or by Roxolans .
I believe they just changed they languague , like it has hapened on all of Near East- Syrria , Lebanon , ... and North Africa - Egypt , Morroco , Algeria ,... they all abandoned they languagues and now speacking Arabian.
Thanks for answering.

Goga
22-08-11, 00:00
Thanks for the list . Iranian is again more linguistic then ethnic name.
Look on that list there is nation Corduene - ancestors of Kurds , look at name of they king from 69 BC it is Zarbienus , if you remove latin transcription you would get Srbljen -Srbin . This is not acctualy evidendce , Sar sufix is very common in IE languagues but it could be clue .
I believe you maked mistake it is not L but I - Iazyges on Latin ( I is english Y or Serbian J) , they were first to move westward of all Sarmatians and settled in Banat ( Romanian and Serbian ) .thanks for the correction of my mistake. It's not Lazyges but Iazyges. Never heard about them before and also didn't read not so much about the Scytho-Sarmatians.

And you're right about the West and East Iranians. Only the proto-Iranic language hold them together. But ethnically speaking they were different folks, with different haplogroups. Iranian (Aryan) was a 'geopolitical' term.

I think you can devide Ancient Iranias in 3 subgroups. 'Kurgan' Iranians (East European), Central Asian Iranians and West Asian Iranians.

If it is true that Serbs are descendants of the Ancient Iranians it must be that they are descendants of the 'Kurgan' Iranians (European).
Kurds however are most likely descendants of the West Asian Iranians; like the Mitanni, Kassites, Guti, Corduchi and Medes mixed with the 'Kurgan Iranians' (Europeans) like; Scythians. It's possible that the Medes were not pure 'West' Asian Iranians, but an admixture of 'Kurgan'-Central Asian Iranians and that Corduchi were related to Scythians

Some 'royal' tombs of the Kings of Media were found in Kurdistan.

Bodin
22-08-11, 01:20
thanks for the correction of my mistake. It's not Lazyges but Iazyges. Never heard about them before and also didn't read not so much about the Scytho-Sarmatians.

And you're right about the West and East Iranians. Only the proto-Iranic language hold them together. But ethnically speaking they were different folks, with different haplogroups. Iranian (Aryan) was a 'geopolitical' term.

I think you can devide Ancient Iranias in 3 subgroups. 'Kurgan' Iranians (East European), Central Asian Iranians and West Asian Iranians.

If it is true that Serbs are descendants of the Ancient Iranians it must be that they are descendants of the 'Kurgan' Iranians (European).
Kurds however are most likely descendants of the West Asian Iranians; like the Corduene, Mitanni, Kassites, Guti and Medes mixed with the 'Kurgan Iranians' (Europeans) like Scythians. It's possible that the Medes were not pure 'West' Asian Iranians, but an admixture of 'Kurgan'-Central Asian Iranians.

Some 'royal' tombs of the Kings of Media were found in Kurdistan.
Ofcourse they are diferent , there is lot of Scythian ancient tombs that have been geneticaly tested and they all are R1a , Scythians probably had some N1c ( Ugrofinic ) to .
Serbs cannt be descedants of Kurgan Iranians because Kurgan Iranians were R1a , and Serbs are 39% I2a2-Din and only 5% R1a which is old 3.500 years and can be conected with Kurgan , Serbs also has yet 10% of R1a but it is old 11.000 years - oldest in Europe ,and is either Illyrian or Alans brought it from Siberia ( in Russia ) where is oldest R1a in world -20.000 years.
All of Sarmatians are tribe ( same nation ) of Medians , so the Serbs and Croats are also Medians like Kurds, and also of western Asian Iranians . Greek historian Diodorus from Sicily writed that Sarmatians are descedants of Medians that were brought north of Caucasus by Scythians during they rule in Asia - Persia , Media , Syria in VII century BC. He said that Sarmatians actualy mean Solar Medes .
For haplogroups in Serbia , Croatia , Macedonia , Montenegro , Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kurdistan look at :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
There is no other way I2a2 -Din would get bouth in Kurdistan and on Balkans and east Europe than over Medians / Saramatians , it couldnt walk over Anatolia living no clues - stronger I2a2 around Istambul is due to Turkic resettlements of Serbian population in that aeria , Byzantin empire use to do same thing - in 659 emperor Constns II resettling parts of Serbs in town Gordoservon( Grad Srpski - city of Serbians) in Bytinia.
Thanks for answering

Goga
22-08-11, 01:47
Ofcourse they are diferent , there is lot of Scythian ancient tombs that have been geneticaly tested and they all are R1a , Scythians probably had some N1c ( Ugrofinic ) to .
Serbs cannt be descedants of Kurgan Iranians because Kurgan Iranians were R1a , and Serbs are 39% I2a2-Din and only 5% R1a which is old 3.500 years and can be conected with Kurgan , Serbs also has yet 10% of R1a but it is old 11.000 years - oldest in Europe ,and is either Illyrian or Alans brought it from Siberia ( in Russia ) where is oldest R1a in world -20.000 years.
All of Sarmatians are tribe ( same nation ) of Medians , so the Serbs and Croats are also Medians like Kurds, and also of western Asian Iranians . Greek historian Diodorus from Sicily writed that Sarmatians are descedants of Medians that were brought north of Caucasus by Scythians during they rule in Asia - Persia , Media , Syria in VII century BC. He said that Sarmatians actualy mean Solar Medes .
For haplogroups in Serbia , Croatia , Macedonia , Montenegro , Bosnia and Herzegovina and Kurdistan look at :
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml
There is no other way I2a2 -Din would get bouth in Kurdistan and on Balkans and east Europe than over Medians / Saramatians , it couldnt walk over Anatolia living no clues - stronger I2a2 around Istambul is due to Turkic resettlements of Serbian population in that aeria , Byzantin empire use to do same thing - in 659 emperor Constns II resettling parts of Serbs in town Gordoservon( Grad Srpski - city of Serbians) in Bytinia.
Thanks for answeringSerbs have more I2a-DIN. Thus that would mean that Serbs are 'more' Medes (from West Asia) than West Asian Kurds that still speak an Iranic language. If that's true than Kurds are also more other Iranic folks (like Mitanni and Kassites) and less Medes that lived mostly in North-East Kurdistan.

Btw, I'm a Kurmanji speaker. Kur (Kor) means son in Kurdish. Some people say that Kurmanji speakers are sons/children of Medes. Kur-Manji = Son-Medes / Madai!
In Russian: son = sin (сын)

That's strange. I also read somewhere years ago that some Polish people connect(ed) them to the (West Asian) Medes too.

Goga
22-08-11, 02:14
People in Poland have 9% of I2. Here I found something on Polish folks:

"A general Polish mythology developed which called into being the "Sarmatian" people as the original forefathers of the Szlachta community. These people came from the area between Poland and Lithuania. Many people traced their families back to these "Sarmatians".

These have been found in recent times in the Polish land of Podolia. These signs survived among some Szlachta families in their coat-of-arms. Here are four: (pictures are on the site)

Thus we see the connection between the Sarmatians and the Central European Szlachta

"The Sarmatians were of Indo-European stock, belonging to a branch of the Iranian speaking group. They were closely akin to the ancient Medes, Parthians and Persians." T. Suliminski, The Sarmatians (New York: 1970), p. 22. "

http://www-staff.it.uts.edu.au/~don/polish/polonaise02.html

Goga
22-08-11, 02:20
"Ancient Sarmatian traditions survived in Poland for a long time. A belief in the Sarmatian origin of Poland was widespread among the Polish Nobility"[34].

http://cgca.net/coglinks/origin/EastEuropeans.htm#_ftnref34

Goga
22-08-11, 03:05
I'm a Kurmanji speaker. Kur (Kor) means son in Kurdish. Some people say that Kurmanji speakers are sons/children of Medes. Kur-Manji = Son-Medes / Madai!
In Russian: son = sin (сын)'Kur' is also the Scythian word for 'son'.

Bodin
22-08-11, 03:14
Serbs have more I2a-DIN. Thus that would mean that Serbs are 'more' Medes (from West Asia) than West Asian Kurds that still speak an Iranic language. If that's true than Kurds are also more other Iranic folks (like Mitanni and Kassites) and less Medes that lived mostly in North-East Kurdistan.

Btw, I'm a Kurmanji speaker. Kur (Kor) means son in Kurdish. Some people say that Kurmanji speakers are sons/children of Medes. Kur-Manji = Son-Medes / Madai!
In Russian: son = sin (сын)

That's strange. I also read somewhere years ago that some Polish people connect(ed) them to the (West Asian) Medes too.
Serbs have biger percent of I2a2-Din , Croats have even biger 42% , and in Herzegovina ( east part are mostly Serbs , and west mostly Croats ) there is 71% . There is probably some variations in I2a2 levels in Kurdistan to , if you or someone else has data please post . But there is more Kurds ( 40-50 millions ) and only 12 millions Serbs.
Yes in Midle Ages Polish nobility use to claim they are descedants of Sarmatians , maybe they were descendants of White Croats ( Bielochorbatoi) , I dont know that is the best I could think of . Also nobility of Grand Dutchy of Litva use to claim they are descendants of Saramatians , and there is 6% of I2a2 in Litva , and neighboring and also Baltic state of Lithuania has only 1% of I2a2 .
Thanks for answering

Bodin
22-08-11, 03:26
People in Poland have 9% of I2. Here I found something on Polish folks:

"A general Polish mythology developed which called into being the "Sarmatian" people as the original forefathers of the Szlachta community. These people came from the area between Poland and Lithuania. Many people traced their families back to these "Sarmatians".

These have been found in recent times in the Polish land of Podolia. These signs survived among some Szlachta families in their coat-of-arms. Here are four: (pictures are on the site)

Thus we see the connection between the Sarmatians and the Central European Szlachta

"The Sarmatians were of Indo-European stock, belonging to a branch of the Iranian speaking group. They were closely akin to the ancient Medes, Parthians and Persians." T. Suliminski, The Sarmatians (New York: 1970), p. 22. "

http://www-staff.it.uts.edu.au/~don/polish/polonaise02.html
Szlachta is not realy community it is Polish word for nobility - gentry , social class. it is posible that some other Sarmatian group beside White Croats populated aeria around Vistula river , there was also land of Vandals Tacitus say they are Germans , but Ptolemy mentions Sarmatae Oundalai - Sarmatian Vandals . Aldo I remember reading about big clash betwen Huns and Vandals , and Huns killed and chased away all of Vandals , so they land is left empty , chased by Huns Vandal refuges crossed Rhine in 408 and entered Roman empire eventualy they get in to Spain and later to Africa. Maybe Huns settled Slavic population in they place , and they were called Wends by land they lived in , maybe even some other Sarmatians ? Who knows , nothing is writen about that .

Bodin
22-08-11, 04:04
'Kur' is also the Scythian word for 'son'.

I had just readed your article about Szlachta and there is few things I have noticed: dvor is also word thet Serbs use to describe they houses in old times , aldo word for house is kuća and dvor has a meaning of palace .
There was 15% of nobility( szlachta) in Poland in XIX century , in Midle Ages in ex Yugoslavia lands there was about 5% of nobility , but in Herzegovina there was about 20% of nobility .
In our languague that word mean male reproductive organ , and it is very much conected with son ,probably words of same origin , conected with fertility - son is the one that carry blood to next generation . Name for wolf is vuk , but also kurjak , and wolf is animal conected with fertility . Word for son is sin but olso rarely kuronya ( ""one with male reproductive organ")

Goga
22-08-11, 05:14
Szlachta is not realy community it is Polish word for nobility - gentry , social class. it is posible that some other Sarmatian group beside White Croats populated aeria around Vistula river , there was also land of Vandals Tacitus say they are Germans , but Ptolemy mentions Sarmatae Oundalai - Sarmatian Vandals . Aldo I remember reading about big clash betwen Huns and Vandals , and Huns killed and chased away all of Vandals , so they land is left empty , chased by Huns Vandal refuges crossed Rhine in 408 and entered Roman empire eventualy they get in to Spain and later to Africa. Maybe Huns settled Slavic population in they place , and they were called Wends by land they lived in , maybe even some other Sarmatians ? Who knows , nothing is writen about that .Wow, thanks. Your knowledge about this is huge!

Goga
22-08-11, 05:21
In our languague that word mean male reproductive organ , and it is very much conected with son ,probably words of same origin , conected with fertility - son is the one that carry blood to next generation . Name for wolf is vuk , but also kurjak , and wolf is animal conected with fertility . Word for son is sin but olso rarely kuronya ( ""one with male reproductive organ")Great!

Wolf is in Kurdish 'gurg' and the male reproductive organ is 'kir' or 'ker', almost the same as in your language.

Some Kurds call the Turkish president not Erdogan, but KERdogan...

Alan
22-08-11, 05:43
Great!

Wolf is in Kurdish 'gurg' and the male reproductive organ is 'kir' or 'ker', almost the same as in your language.

Some Kurds call the Turkish president not Erdogan, but KERdogan...

In latin alphabet the mail reproductive organ is only Kir. Ker is a regional and false pronouncing of some Groups.

Kerdogan has nothing to do with the mail organ. Ker means in Kurdish languages donkey and idiot.

And Gurg is actually Sorani. Kurmanjis use Gur but Gurg is actually older. Do Yezidi Kurds still use Gurg? Fascinating!

Other Kurdish variants of Wulf are wurg and verg.

Bodin
22-08-11, 05:49
Great!

Wolf is in Kurdish 'gurg' and the male reproductive organ is 'kir' or 'ker', almost the same as in your language.

Some Kurds call the Turkish president not Erdogan, but KERdogan...
Niiiiceeee!!!!!!:grin:

Bodin
22-08-11, 05:57
In latin alphabet the mail reproductive organ is only Kir. Ker is a regional and false pronouncing of some Groups.

Kerdogan has nothing to do with the mail organ. Ker means in Kurdish languages donkey and idiot.

And Gurg is actually Sorani. Kurmanjis use Gur but Gurg is actually older. Do Yezidi Kurds still use Gurg? Fascinating!

Other Kurdish variants of Wulf are wurg and verg.
Well donkey / idiot is also Niiiiiceee!!!!!

Goga
22-08-11, 23:37
In latin alphabet the mail reproductive organ is only Kir. Ker is a regional and false pronouncing of some Groups.

Kerdogan has nothing to do with the mail organ. Ker means in Kurdish languages donkey and idiot.

And Gurg is actually Sorani. Kurmanjis use Gur but Gurg is actually older. Do Yezidi Kurds still use Gurg? Fascinating!

Other Kurdish variants of Wulf are wurg and verg.Well, I can't write Kurdish. So maybe you're right.

We say gur, sounds more like between gur and gör (between u and ö). I used the whole "Kurdish" word as an example to find the roots of that word.

Maybe it's a children variant to call Erdogan an idiot (Kerdogan), but I mean really Kirdogan, more like d*ckh**d.

how yes no 3
06-04-12, 14:46
saying in Serbs "speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you"

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5542&stc=1
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/ec/Kurdish_86.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif


Pasthun Sarbans
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarbans
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/2/2f/Mohmand_abdul.jpg


http://gulf2000.columbia.edu/images/maps/Pashtun_Confederacies_sm.jpg



(white) Sart people from Kyrgyzstan, Turkmenstan, Uzbekistan, Tajikistan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margelan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Sartscrop.jpg/696px-Sartscrop.jpg


Sarta people - northwest China
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Streets_of_Dongxiang_Man_04.jpg/280px-Streets_of_Dongxiang_Man_04.jpg

how yes no 3
09-04-12, 03:48
actually, I was probably wrong all along......

latest research shows:
1) that haplogroup I in Afghanistan is in fact I2b1 which is in Europe related to Germanic tribes...so this may be remains of some prehistoric "drang nach Osten"

http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0034288

2) this I2 is not found in Pashtuns who are considered to origin from Scythians and are R1a dominant people, but 2 in Hazara who dominantly origin from soldiers of Genghis Kan and 1 in Tajik sample...


for me this is indication that Serica, north of Tibet was I2b1, because Serica stretched into Tajikistan and it was likely subdued on start of Genghis Kan conquest....hence people from there were used as soldiers in Afganistan leaving Hazara as their offspring (apparently according to preserved tradition the word Hazara comes from number 1000 which was number of people in units that were left as settlements to rule the country)

so Serica was probably related to I2b1 which is in Europe related to Germanic people
=> same holds for modern Sart people who are descended from Serica people.....




regarding 2) it is rather low number of samples and it is not clear where 49 samples for Pasthuns come from (whether they include some Pashtun Sarbans but they probably do as Sarbans are largest tribal group of Pashtuns) but still based on that sample Pasthuns are 50% R1a and no haplogroup I, Sarbans are largest tribe of Pashtuns so probably roughly the same...


this suggest that I could be wrong all along with proposed links between tribes and haplogroups

Gosh
09-04-12, 14:27
actually, I was probably wrong all along......



Finally, I'll have to agree with you ;)

how yes no 3
05-06-12, 02:50
maybe I was not wrong...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=395850&viewfull=1#post395850 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=395850&viewfull=1#post395850)