Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

DejaVu

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Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.
 
Greetings,
for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:

1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI

2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml

Now,
It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs.

Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.

There exist few hypotheses.
Serbs today, I think, is a mix of Balkanic (Illyrians, Thracians), Slavic, Anatolian, Sarmatians, Scythians, etc., people, nation, tribes.
Yet, everything of this could be true, and false.
Theories, hypotheses, time will tell, I hope, the truth.
You can read more about the Serbs at this thread:

"Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2"
eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25801

A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.
 
Greetings,
for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:

1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI

2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml

Now,
It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs.

Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.

There exist few hypotheses.
Serbs today, I think, is a mix of Balkanic (Illyrians, Thracians), Slavic, Anatolian, Sarmatians, Scythians, etc., people, nation, tribes.
Yet, everything of this could be true, and false.
Theories, hypotheses, time will tell, I hope, the truth.
You can read more about the Serbs at this thread:

"Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2"
eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25801

A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.

Good morning.
 
A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.

The member "how yes now" wrote about Serbs colonizing Iberia and Northwest Africa. This kind of imagination can be interesting only to those who consider history just one more fairy tale. And this is were you have the point - people do enjoy reading fairy tales.
 
Greetings,
for the beginning (if you didn't, also others either who might look at this thread) it would be informative to look at this two Eupedia links:

1) eupedia.com/europe/origins haplogroups europe.shtml#mtI

2) eupedia.com/europe/european y-dna haplogroups.shtml

Now,
It is difficult, or impossible (even for now, that is, in fact genetics is still in its infancy) to tell who were the Serbs, and who are the Serbs.

Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.

There exist few hypotheses.
Serbs today, I think, is a mix of Balkanic (Illyrians, Thracians), Slavic, Anatolian, Sarmatians, Scythians, etc., people, nation, tribes.
Yet, everything of this could be true, and false.
Theories, hypotheses, time will tell, I hope, the truth.
You can read more about the Serbs at this thread:

"Sarmatians, Serbs, Croats and I2a2"
eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25801

A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.

looool
'how yes no', is it you?? :LOL:
 
looool
'how yes no', is it you?? :LOL:

nope, but it seems that my writings on that topic gave me one fan from Greece, and two extreme critics from Serbia



Their DNA is not similiar to the DNA of Western and Eastern Slavs.
But they have taken Slavic language. This two things are facts.
Serbs DNA is same as in other Slavs dominantly determined by R1a and I2a2, just ratio of I2a2 and R1a is opposite, which indicates that tyhey were among I2a2 contributers in Slavic people...

As for language, I believe that Slavic language origin from Serbs



A member "how yes no", posted some very interesting staff.
Take a look, you will enjoy for sure.
And if you have some questions don't hesitate to ask, since discussion(s) and further information can only be helpful.

I do wonder how can someone say "don't hesitate to ask" instead of me... perhaps idea is to discredit my writing by taking identity that everyone will think is me.... I guess that little Croat boy think he is very smart....
 
nope, but it seems that my writings on that topic gave me one fan from Greece, and two extreme critics from Serbia

You know how it is said- Nobody is a prophet at his own home.
Let it be consolation to you.
 
You know how it is said- Nobody is a prophet at his own home.
Let it be consolation to you.

yes, well I did propose some quite exotic ideas.... e.g. relation to sea peoples...

there are two things to distinguish:
one is Serb tribal name that seems to be very old and have passed mostly among I haplogroup tribes in different shapes (as in Swedes, Suebi, Sorbs, Serbs, Sarbans, Sardinians... also possible matches Scordisci, Serdi...)
and second is actual ancestors of Serbs of today....

e.g. Pasthun Sarbans matching Seneca's arc of Serians from northwest China to India, coupled with name Sarbans used for Serbs by some Byzantine historians, and with Pastun Sarbans carrying clear mark of haplogroup I in non haplogroup I part of Asia, made me conclude that proto-Serbs are offspring of Serians mentioned by Seneca...

but according to
"Saudi Arabian Y-Chromosome diversity and its relationship with
nearby regions - Khaled K Abu-Amero*1, Ali Hellani2, Ana M González3, Jose M Larruga3,Vicente M Cabrera3 and Peter A Underhill4"
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/10/59

it seems that there is no haplogroup I in Saudi Arabia and Yemen (where one would expect offspring of Serians of Red sea) and that haplogroup I in Pastun Sarbans is I* and not I2a2

which indicates the direction of spread of haplogroup I, was probably from Persia to several branches: arc of Seres, Asia minor and Caucasus...and from last two directions to Europe... amazing is that tribal name for so distantly related people is preserved....

I still think that proto-Serbs origin from Serians of Europe, just their link to Serians of Red sea, and to Serians of arc from Serica in northwest China to India is much earlier in time than I have guessed...as being of haplogroup I* makes Serians of Asia very distantly related people with same tribal name....

sea peoples Sherden (after whom the lake in Egypt carries name Serbonian bog / Serbonis/Sirbonis) are most likely related to either Sardinians or Serians of Red sea... and their relation to proto-Serbs of Balkan is very distant...
 
it seems that there is no haplogroup I in Saudi Arabia and Yemen

Surprising really! I would expect at least I1 in the south of Saudi Arabia. You know about Vikings, nobody knows where they may appear...

And that Osama Bin Laden looks to me as genuine Serb!
 
Surprising really! I would expect at least I1 in the south of Saudi Arabia. You know about Vikings, nobody knows where they may appear...
And that Osama Bin Laden looks to me as genuine Serb!

hey, don't joke... :)

idea I had is that Serians of Red sea (Sabeans/Sheba) were offspring of more northern Serians who settled coasts of Red sea during sea peoples invasion (Sherden whose name resulted in Serbonian bog toponym in Egypt)...
but since quoted work indicates that there is no haplogroup I in Arabian peninsula, either this is wrong theory, or they didnot leave much offspring, or sampling didnot catch area where they offspring lives...

a possible explanation is that tribal name Serb is even older than haplogroup I and related to haplogroup IJ branch...so that Sheba or Sabeans became J haplogroup, and a branch of them who lived in Persia became haplogroup I.... besides it is even possible that Arab tribal name might be derived from same root with losing 'S' in the beginning of the word...

if tribal name related to Serbs is really ancient old, than it is not really good marker for explaining more recent history of Serbs.....


anyway, I will try later to summarize the part of ideas about more recent origin of Serbs of Balkan that seems to hold well...
 
hey, don't joke... :)



a possible explanation is that tribal name Serb is even older than haplogroup I and related to haplogroup IJ branch...so that Sheba or Sabeans became J haplogroup, and a branch of them who lived in Persia became haplogroup I....

If you continue this way you will end up connecting Serbs with haplogroup A.
What to say, unless: Bon voyage!
 
If you continue this way you will end up connecting Serbs with haplogroup A.
What to say, unless: Bon voyage!

that is exactly the point I am making now....

if tribal name has ancient old origin (as in carried by some of IJ peoples), than it makes no sense to use it to reconstruct more recent history of Balkan Serbs whose I2a2 members are just a small leaf on that tree of people who originates from IJ....

so, we should follow first known historical mention of Serbs and try to go a bit backwards from there... e.g. towards link between Slavs (Sloveni) and Veneti...
 
Serbia
I1 6,5%
I2a 34,5%
I2b 0,5%
R1a 15%
R1b 7%
G2a 1,5%
J2 6,5%
J1 0,5%
E1b1b 20,5%
T 3%
Q 1%
N1c1 2%
 
Serbia
I1 6,5%
I2a 34,5%
I2b 0,5%
R1a 15%
R1b 7%
G2a 1,5%
J2 6,5%
J1 0,5%
E1b1b 20,5%
T 3%
Q 1%
N1c1 2%

DejaVu

I told you that there is new researching for Serbia, Mirabal et al (2010):
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

Serbia

I2a2 38,5%
I1 7,8%
I2b1 1.67%

R1a 14,5%
R1b 4,5%

E1b1b1 17,3%

J1 0.6%
J2a 3.3%
J2b 1.7%

G2a 2,2%

(You can see, total I in Serbia is 47,97%.)

And I will show that Macedonians (FYROM) are the closest with Serbs according to the analysis.
 
Who were and are the Serbs and their DNA

Continue posting about that, rest is irrelevant.
 
DejaVu
One part I already wrote on another topic but as a prelude to the final image.

You can see similarity in haplogroups between Serbia and Macedonia FYROM and comment on the differences.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia census 2001
Ethnic Serbs 83%, Others 17%

Macedonia FYROM census 2001
Ethnic Slavic Macedonians 65%, Ethnic Albanians 24%, Others 11%

Comments

Given that the majority Albanians haplogroup is E is not surprising that is a greater percentage of E in Macedonia than in Serbia.

The part of E carriers in Serbia is from the migration of Montenegrins where E is higher percentage than in Macedonia.

If we consider only ethnic Serbs and ethnic Slavic Macedonians, haplogroup I is the higher percentage comparing the total population of these countries.


Dieckens decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html

Labels are as follows:

GRE: Greece
SER: Serbia
SMA: Slavic Macedonia (FYROM)
HER: Herzegovina
BOS: Bosnia
ALB: Albania
KAL: Kosovo Albanians
SLO: Slovenia
CRO: Croatia
UKR: Ukraine
TUR: Turkey
HUN: Hungary
ROM: Romania
ITA: Italy

You can see his results on map.

princomp5or.jpg


I tried to introduce changes for Serbia and Montenegro, MNE (based on Mirabal et al 2010) and Albania, GAL Gege Albanians and TAL Tosk Albanians (according Ferri et al, 2010).

The differences are as follows:

SER has moved somewhat closer to the left to HER and BOS;

If would be introduced in the picture GAL (Geges Albanians) that would be slightly lower than the KAL;

If would be injected also a TAL (Tosk Albanians) that would not be much moved over in comparison to ALB;

If would be introduced Montenegro it would be about halfway between the diagonal and GAL SER.


Despite these changes for Serbia would be the closest to the left Bosnia (BOS) again the right Macedonia FYROM apropos Macedonia FYROM is by far the closest to Serbia.


In the original Dieckens paper Serbia and Macedonia FYROM are almost folded, which indicates a high congruence of population.

Today it is fashionable to declare themselves and look for some non-existent roots away from Serbia because it is such a policy, and OK, all this is somewhat understandable.

But science is immune to man-made efforts to make someone other than who is, so sooner or later everything comes everything falls into right place.
 
CONGRATULATIONS, YOU JUST PRESENTED FABRICATED FALSIFICATION OF GENETIC STATISTICS.

Serbia (Mirabal et al 2010), Macedonia FYROM (Pericic et al, 2005)

Serbia and Macedonia (FYROM)

I2a2 38,5%_______29,1 %
I1 7,8% __________ No data
R1a 14,5_________15,2%
R1b 4,5%_________5,1%
E1b1b1 17,3%______24,1%
J2 5,0____________6,3%
G2a 2,2% _________ No data

Serbia 89.8%?
Macedonia 79.8%?
You know this genetic statistics are fake, or do you?


The original from Mirabal 2010
http://www.haplozone.net/wiki/index.php?title=Mirabal_et_al._(2010)
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/abstract

Serbia
I2a 38.54%
R1b 4.5%
R1a 14.5%
E1b1b 17.3%


The original from Pericic 2005
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg
F2.large.jpg

ALL THE SAMPLES TAKEN FROM THE MACEDONIANS, ARE FROM ETHNIC MACEDONIANS AND SAME FOR THE OTHER PEOPLE.
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full


Y-DNA haplogroups in European populations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_by_groups_in_Europe


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html
"I have decided to investigate the correlations between haplogroup frequencies in southeastern Europe and some neighboring populations. Currently, I have collected frequency data for the main haplogroups found in the region (E3b, J2, I, R1a, R1b) for 16 populations."

GARRICK, ARE YOU CLAIMING HAPLOGROUP I2A2 OR ANY KIND OF HAPLOGROUP I AS SERBIAN?
WHERE DID YOU GET THE GENETIC STATISTICS?
CAN YOU LINK THE SOURCE TO PERICIC 2005 AND MIRABAL 2010?
 
Last edited:
CONGRATULATIONS, YOU JUST PRESENTED FABRICATED FALSIFICATION OF GENETIC STATISTICS.

DejaVu
All the information I have given are completely true that everyone can check.

Pericic et al

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html

Page 4

Macedonian
IE BaltoSlavic
R1b 5,1%
R1a 15,2%
I2a2 29,1 %
E1b1b1 24,1%
J2 6,3%

You can see Dieckens analysis (2005) based on data Pericic et al and other relevant research at the time:

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2005/08/haplogroup-frequency-correlations-in.html

princomp5or.jpg


After that there were other research I cited the differences.

Probably you are confused about the Mirabal et al (2010) where is the rest of the data.

Because I have a whole article; on the Internet is only available part.

But you can look at the topics were given the results

www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25689&page=4

DejaVu
Many people in Macedonia FYROM (I am quite often in Skopje) know that the Serbs and Macedonians FYROM are close peoples.

And trust me, when they hear someone speaks Serbian exactly see them to cheer.

The problem is not people but politics.

The politics is that of the Slavic Macedonians asked to renounce who they are and to embrace what you have never been, history of other nations, and this is what nature can not last forever, and you will see a time will come when you and I will run a lot constructive discussions.


And as far as I haplogroups in the Balkans, I have never written that it is only Serbian.

Peak is in Bosnia and Herzegovina, Serbia is the second and third in percentage is Croatia and I was giving this information in the other topic, if you want I can repeat.
 

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