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DejaVu
25-01-11, 00:26
Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

iapetoc
26-01-11, 11:25
I believe that is obvius

Illyros son of Kadmus invte Illyria
so albania has J2

aeolian E wich was cut isolated and became another nation is the kossovo E-V13

the possibilty that GeG means also achaic ->agaig ->geg a+i = e
(watch acha-menides, aga-memnon, achaic, turkish aga =leader aga-memnon = ruler memnon)

the genetical connection with peloponese Achaic is probably obvius

events unite J2 and E-V13 to albanians
also J2 and E-V13 to Greeks

the R1a and R1b is the rulers probably R1a Thracian and R1b Celtic

how yes no 2
26-01-11, 22:43
I believe that is obvius

Illyros son of Kadmus invte Illyria
so albania has J2

aeolian E wich was cut isolated and became another nation is the kossovo E-V13

the possibilty that GeG means also achaic ->agaig ->geg a+i = e
(watch acha-menides, aga-memnon, achaic, turkish aga =leader aga-memnon = ruler memnon)

I think good roots for tribal name are in general: religion related terms, weapons used, or some legendary ruler....

possible ruler whose name Geghs carry may be Gyges ruler of Lydia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

I have idea that stories of Gyges may be about E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste ...as Gyges was shepard unrelated to royal bloodlines and did overthrow the previous king...that might even explain attacks of I2a2 Cimmerians on country of Gyges.... note that Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...which may be about related E haplogroup people....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Map_of_Lydia_ancient_times.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg


this would make I2a2 proto-Serbs and E-V13 Albanian Geghs sworn enemies long time in past, and perhaps even explain why there is almost no I2a2 in Geghs while it is present in all other Balkan people...

Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....

movement of Tosks from Lydia to Balkan happened at unknown time, but might be related with the hole in spread of J2b in Lydia.... when they left Lydia, the vacated space was settled by people of some other haplogroups which made a hole in spread of J2b in Asia minor and hotspot of it in south Albania...

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

DejaVu
27-01-11, 03:49
Albania
I1 2%
I2a 12%
I2b 1,5%
R1a 9%
R1b 16%
G2a 1,5%
J2 19,5%
J1 2%
E1b1b 27,5%
T 1%

iapetoc
27-01-11, 12:06
you still answer the 'are and not the 'were'

find the 'were'

how yes no 2
28-01-11, 03:25
real question about Albanians is their relation with Dardanians and Illyrians...

and while I am prone to believe that there is relation between Albaninans and Dardanians.....possibility for relation of Albanians to Illyrians is still kind of mistery....

also real extent of Illyrians is mystery.... especially condsidering that Slavs were by Jordanes described as race of Veneti thus Venetic people, and that Pannoni tribes (one of them that inhabited Plitvice lakes complex was carrying clearly Slavic tribal name Oseriates which is translatable as 'lake people') were called Illyrian tribes only based on fact that they lived in Roman province of Illyria....

basically, key question is whether Illyrians were E-V13 dominant or I2a2 dominant....

arguments for E-V13:
1) high variation in Dalmatia....
2) Steven Byrd claims that E-V13 in Britain is due to Roman soldiers from Balkan (I do not really believe this but it does make some sense). But there is no I2a2-Dinaric in Britain....

arguments for I2a2:
1) in Dalmatia is high frequency of I2a2,
2) low frequency of E-V13,
3) there is I2a2 spread along Adriatic in Italy.... and Illyrians settlement there are recorded in history while there were no massive Slavic settlements there...
4)Illyrians are described as tall people, with their tribes known just for long wars among themselves....
Albanians are in average shorter mediteranean people who never had real wars between themselves...
while south Slavs are in average taller people, and have history of wars among their tribes....

DejaVu
28-01-11, 03:46
Question:
Gheg and Tosk speakers same people?

how yes no 2
28-01-11, 03:56
Question:
Gheg and Tosk speakers same people?
now they are obviously, but originally I think they were not ...
genetic is very different, and from what I heard dialects are quite different...

Ghegs could be related to Dardanians
Tosks could be albanized Greek Epirot-Slavic mix....with Albanization taking place with spread of Albanians in times of collapse of Byzantine empire.... this scenario would explain considerable J2b, I2a2 and R1a part.... which is almost completely lacking in Ghegs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arvanites

alternativelly, Tosks may be related to Illyrians, but they are a bit too south for that.... and many toponyms there are Slavic in origin....

third variant is idea about Gyges as eponym forefather of Ghegs, and that Tosks origin from Albanized Lydians while Gheghs are pure Albanians....

anyway, it is hard for me to guess what is right there...
perhaps someone with better knowledge of Greek historical sources could figure this out better....

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 04:05
copied from topic about Macedonians...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26187&page=20




Origin of Albanians is twofold:
Quote:
Tosks are mostly albanized Epirots... dominant haplogroup J
Geghs probably origin from Dardanians... dominant haplogroup E-V13
These are bullshit. Epirots were barbarians as ancient authors told us. If we wanna know what was their language we must look at todays epirots or Tosks.

Tha assimilation occur in the contrary direction, because thay who have the state they make assimilation, and they who have not state they bacome assimilated.

Sot because Greeks, had the state (Byzantium), they assimilated all peoples of Anatolia, even the Jews etc.

But Albanians could not assimilate anybody, because they had not state, specially not in th south, until the late medieval (Ghin Bue Spata).

How the Epirots became Albanized?? Maybe some Gheg children armed with sibynas came in south and said to them, "Hey Epirots, come speak Albanian, we kill you", and the epirots were frightened, and begaun to speak albanian. hahha

Epirus was whole central and south Albania

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/50/Epirus_%26_modern_borders.jpg/200px-Epirus_%26_modern_borders.jpg


whole point is that Albanisation of Epirotes happened with Byzantium becoming weak...in 14th century...Arbanians spread to Epirus from mountains
as Byzantium was weak... look at years... they coincide with spread of Serbian state towards south...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png

Tosks have significant I2a2 and J2, but Arbereshe who origin from Albanians who settled Italy upon arrival of Ottomans do not have much of those haplogroups... which indicates that in 15th century assimilation is still not complete and I2a2 and J2 people in central and south Albania are not counting themselves as Albanians...


Haplogroup I-M170 is the most common Balkan haplogroup (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and the second most frequent Arbereshe clade. Nevertheless, analysis of its network reveals unexpected results: most of the Arbereshe I-M170 haplotypes are not included in the Balkan cluster[/B] (Figure 3), but are located in the long branches containing mainly Italian chromosomes. Comparisons with literature data (Semino et al. 2000; Barac et al. 2003, Rootsi et al. 2004) show that the core haplotype of the Balkan cluster (16-14-15-13-31-24-11-11-13; locus order as above) is consistent with the almost Balkan exclusive I2a (formerly I1b) clade. The proposed interpretation of the Arbereshe as a proxy of the founder Albanian population leads us to hypothesize that the I2a clade was less common in the southern Balkans 500 years ago than nowadays. The very tight shape of the I2a cluster in the network suggests a very recent expansion of this haplogroup in the southern Balkans. Furthermore, I2a is still rare in
mountain populations such as the Albanians of Kosovo (Pericic et al. 2005a,b) and in a randomly selected Arbereshe sample from Rootsi et al. (2004).
This is an interesting finding in the light of recent evidence for selection in Y-haplogroup I.

The situation with J2 is also quite interesting as this is rarer in Arbereshe (3%) than Albanians (17%):
The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html

this is clear genetic proof that I2a2 and J2b people among Tosks are albanized Epirotes



So, epirots maybe did'nt call themselves illyrian, we don't know about thet, but it is proved that Epir and Illyria and Macedonia, as ancient authors said, have the same race, same language and same customs.
I do not believe this... please quote source...

if it is correct, than it means that Illyrians are probably not related to Albanians, but are I2a2 or J2b people...
which leaves Dardanians as key and only cultural ancestor of Arbanians (now called Albanians)

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 17:02
R1a is of mongolian origin. And they originally were mongolian people, but, as for Ev13 it is not before 4700 years ago that came,

even it didnt came here, but it was evolved here, in the mesolithic, or at least in neolithic, it is linked to J2b, and are together since neolithic. note how perfectly R1a in Italy follows curves of shape of Etruscan area of influence....this is because it came into non-R1a area...

We know that Slavs came in Ballkan, I2a2 came in Balkan togethere. It is simple. Others are bullshit.
lol, R1a Mongolian....

R1a is in Balkan for 11500 years already... (Klyosov proved that) so they might have been Pelasgues, while arrival of E-V13 might be about Illyrians and later Dardanians...
Slavic people likely brought I2a2, but I2a2 is in Europe from its start... whether it was in Balkan is hard to say... I think it was as Veneti related tribes... I am pretty sure that Veneti are dominant I2 people.. and we know that early Slavs are from populous race of Veneti as written by Jordanes...

btw. tribal name of Tosks may be related to tribal name of Etruscans/Tuscans...

Etruscans are dominantly R1a people who departed from Lydia and settled in Italy after sailing there with ships, but it is also possible that part of them settled in Albania...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Etruscan_civilization_map.png/493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

note the wholes in J2 and R1a in Lydia which is place from which Etruscans departed...

that also explains R1a and J2 in south Albania
I2a2 was probably brought by Slavic people and some of J2 is due to Greeks...

Tosks would on map of Illyrian tribes perhaps be Uscana as e.g. what was Etruria is now Tuscany...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

Uscana is in area next to west FYRM, which explains large R1a in Albanians of FYRM who never mixed with Slavic settlers....

R1a and J2 is what connects Uscana (Tosk?) Illyrians with ancient Macedonians...

btw. just don't interpret this as Etruscan = Albanian... things are more complicated... tribal names are carried over to larger tribal groups... all nations are mixed in origin...

Tribal name of Etruscans (they call themselves Rasena) is also identical to tribal name of also Thracians /Russians/Rascians (Rascians is medieval Serb state).... origin of tribal name is R1a...
language of Etruscans was not indo-european... there are suggestion it was alike to Hungarian, and I believe this may be truth as proto-Magyars are clearly non-Indoeuropean R1a people...

Etruscans are as you can see shared link between Serbs and Albanians...but that is not surprising as south Slavs, soon after clustering with Romanians, central Ukraine and east and west Hungary, do cluster with Albanians as you can see in tables in full version of:

Forensic Science International: Genetics doi:10.1016/j.fsigen.2010.09.010
Geostatistical inference of main Y-STR-haplotype groups in Europe, Amalia Diaz-Lacava et al.

More you go in past more shared history different people of today have...

Neander
20-02-11, 17:10
Slavic people likely brought I2a2, but I2a2 is in Europe from its start... whether it was in Balkan is hard to say... I think it was as Veneti related tribes... I am pretty sure that Veneti are dominant I2 people.. and we know that early Slavs are from populous race of Veneti as written by Jordanes...Hello stop with propaganda, stop with nazi, idea,

This is nazi idea of serbs, who wanna tell the world that Albanians are recent arrivals, and to expell albanians from Kosovo like they did in the 1999 when pushed away 1.000.000 peoples from their homes, and burnt tha houses etc.

Think of what your ideas might cause in the reality. Your ideas are cause of killing, massacres and terror, against albanians, for one hundred years.

Neander
20-02-11, 17:12
Ev13 it is said to come from Africa. But there is no our of Africa migration after Mesolithic.

So Ev13 is here until Mesolithic, as huntergatherers. In Neoklithic came J2b and unite together, and since Neolithic they are together as the same nation/race/language of Balkan, Italy and Asia minor.

Neander
20-02-11, 17:17
How yes no, the map is nothing. I can draw a map, whenever I want. but you have no facts.

Arvanites are mentioned since in the 11 century as a separated branch of Albanians, living in Greece. That means, they were in south, earlier then the 14 century.

As for Epirus, all ancient author said that they were barbarians, ie non greek.

Greeks call barbarians those who were not greek, i.e. didnt spoke greek.

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 17:21
Hello stop with propaganda, stop with nazi, idea,

This is nazi idea of serbs, who wanna tell the world that Albanians are recent arrivals, and to expell albanians from Kosovo like they did in the 1999 when pushed away 1.000.000 peoples from their homes, and burnt tha houses etc.

Think of what your ideas might cause in the reality. Your ideas are cause of killing, massacres and terror, against albanians, for one hundred years.


you do not understand my posts obviously...
early Slavs are of Veneti race...
that is not my claim that is written by historian in 6th century

Veneti are I2 people...
E-V13 are recent arrival compared to R1a (which is not mark of Slavic people as you interpret)...

killing is caused by people who speak of being more indigenous in some areas and having more rights.... which is very typical motive in Albanian Illyrian and Dardanian propaganda...

I never take such claims, but if you take them, I warn you that such attitude may come back to you (or to any people who claim being indegionous and having more right on land) as a boomerang...

there are no more or less indigenous people, as we can always take a snapshot in history when it was opposite... if you claim Albanians origin of Illyrians and Dardanians and are thus more indigenous while R1a are according toy you Mongolians (??), only respond to that is that science shows that E-V13 came to area 4000 years before present while R1a came 11500 years before present... so it is clear who is more indigenous.. so, don't push it!

R1a Mongolian... you really do not live in reality...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=365892&postcount=168

you live in dream of all Balkan being Albanian only in ancient past and how it should be Albanian only in future as well... you see Slavs as R1a Mongolians... and yesterday you implied Greeks being someone who corrupted your pure language...
Albanians are not Pelasgians...

Neander
20-02-11, 17:29
early Slavs are of Veneti race...Other are Venedi slavs, others are Veneti or Eneti Illyrians. They are diferent totally diferent.


Veneti are I2 people...
Which Veneti are I2 people? By which genetic study? Who examined the genes?


E-V13 are recent arrival compared to R1a (which is not mark of Slavic people as you interpret)...There is no out of Africa migration after mesolithis in Europe!!!! It is fact.

R1a1 came with Slavs, Slavs every where in Balkans were dispersed, even in Albania and Greece.


killing is caused by people who speak of being more indigenous in some areas and having more rights.... Killing is fact that was done in 1999, by serbs, They killed croatian, bosniaks and albanians. Your are linking R1a1 with prot-serbs, in the time when serbs never existed.



never take such claims, but if you take them, I warn you that such attitude may come back to you (or to any people who claim being indegionous and having more right on land) as a boomerang...
I am not frightening, you are alone a frightened man, I have mercy for your psychic problems.


only respond to that is that science shows that E-V13 came to area 4000 years before present while R1a came 11500 years before present... so it is clear who is more indigenous.. so, don't push it! There is no out of africa to Europe, migration in 4000 BP.

Ev134 is here since mesolithic.

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 17:39
Other are Venedi slavs, others are Veneti or Eneti Illyrians. They are diferent totally diferent.


Which Veneti are I2 people? By which genetic study? Who examined the genes?

There is no out of Africa migration after mesolithis in Europe!!!! It is fact.

R1a1 came with Slavs, Slavs every where in Balkans were dispersed, even in Albania and Greece.

Killing is fact that was done in 1999, by serbs, They killed croatian, bosniaks and albanians. Your are linking R1a1 with prot-serbs, in the time when serbs never existed.

I am not frightening, you are alone a frightened man, I have mercy for your psychic problems.

There is no out of africa to Europe, migration in 4000 BP.

Ev134 is here since mesolithic.

I never talked of out of Africa in 4000-5000 years before present
but of arrival of E-V13 on Balkans from Asia minor...
Asia minor is not Europe... both Illyrians and Dardanians are fairly recent arrival to Europe from Asia minor...


R1a1 came with Slavs, Slavs every where in Balkans were dispersed, even in Albania and Greece.

I do not agree that R1a came to Balkan with Slavs... it is in Balkan for 11500 years according to Klyosov....most of or part of I2a2 came with Slavs... but it has only moved from one place in Europe to another place in Europe... and it is hard to say whether I2a2 was also present in areas before Slavs...there are indicators that suggest it might have been...

Serbs are Slavic people dominantly I2a2..... Slavic people are of Veneti origin...there is clear correlation between Veneti and I2 people

However, there is also R1a part that is ancient old in Siberia and Serbia, Bosnia, and Macedonia...
this R1a I call R1a proto-Serbs in sense that they are R1a ancestors of today Serbs (while today Serbs also have I2a2-ancestors, E-V13 ancestors as so on....and those would be I2a2 proto-Serbs, E-V13 proto-Serbs and so on....) ...all nations are of mixed origin....

but in history this R1a was probably Pelasgian.... and was also dominant in people like ancient Macedonians and Etruscan...

btw. Albanians of FYRM has roughly same percentage of R1a as Serbs, Bulgarians and FYRM Macedonians and twice more than people in Montenegro... and Greek Macedonians have much more of R1a than all...


Other are Venedi slavs, others are Veneti or Eneti Illyrians. They are diferent totally diferent.

Veneti are not same as Illyrians...
read more...


Which Veneti are I2 people? By which genetic study? Who examined the genes?
that is what I was indicating here in many posts and what I believe in... which is why sometimes I state it very firmly...

but I do not need genetists to tell me that early Slavs were of Veneti race...
history tells me that...

in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35)
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

for genetic related view, well read my posts...
briefly, spread of I2a2 correlates with location directions of spread of early Slavs (compare maps)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia who never mixed with Slavs have roughly same percentage of R1a as neigbouring Slavic Macedonians, Serbs and Bulgars, while twice more than Slavic people from Montenegro.... in same time Peloponesse that was massivelly settled by Slavs has 1.8% R1 and 22% of haplogroup I, while Greek Macedonia has much more R1a (up to 30%) than any of neighbouring Slavic lands (around 15%)...in Hungary, people who originate from Slavs live in east and west of country, as Magyars entered center of that area and settled there, which clearly shows in fact that only west and east Hungary (but not center) clusters with central Ukraine, Romania and south Slavs... but oppositely from expected, hotspot of R1a is center of Hungaria while it is much lower in east and west part of it.... I2a2 is dominant in all south Slavs, while the remaining haplogroups vary quite widely, thus their language and culture relationship may be due to I2a2...
look at
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

all this taken together is very strong indicator that widely spread belief that R1a = Slavic should be reconsidered...

also there are only two samples of I2a* in familytree dna database...one is exactly matching Britanny Veneti and other position of Adriatic Veneti...

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

also R1a is 11500 years old in Balkan and 3000-5000 years old in rest of Europe... thus its spread to rest of Europe was from Balkan...
www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

to me all this and number of other clues is clear indication that Slavs who were settled on Balkans were I2a2 and not R1a...


As for Epirus, all ancient author said that they were barbarians, ie non greek.
I guess your logic is Albanians are barbarians, so all people mentioned as barbarians are Albanians?

I have shown you that Tosk tribal name is probably related to Uscana tribe of Illyrians and that tribal name does probably origin from same root as Etruscan tribal name.... if you look at the map, it is obvious that Uscana expanded to south when Bryges moved to Asia minor and became Phrygians... next expansion was probably in 14th century...

thus we have likely two-fold origin of Albanians - Geghs from Dardanians and Tosks from Uscan tribe of Illyrians... language of Epirotes disappeared from history as many other languages throughout Europe....
why do you map all ancient tribes to Albanians? it is even hard to claim relation to Illyrians, as few preserved words of Illyrian are completely alien to Albanian (match must be both in form and meaning everything else is cheating)

and if you read carefully my posts on this topic you will realize that I do try to be fair in reconstructing possible history of Albanians.... I am just occasionally annoyed with your aggressive approach in which R1a are recently settled Mongolians, Greeks are hybrids who lost purity of Albanian language and similar non-sense... grow up...wake up from your delusions...

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 22:35
very interesting peculiarity !!

compare maps

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg/727px-Iberia_300BC.svg.png
for larger map click here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

In Portugal you can find Caladuni close to Seurbi and Helleni
In south Balkan map you can find Illyrian Chelidoni close to Serdi, and of course lot of Hellenic tribes...

I guess once upon a time Iberian peninsula was new continent as America much later... if you look better you will see Germani somewhere further...

but Caladuni & Seurbi vs. Chelidoni & Serdi are interesting match as they might point out that some Illyrian tribes did travel to conquer new land together with potential proto-Serb tribe....

from Caladuni come Caledones from whom Scotish people partially origin as I explained in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26103

Caledones are number 1 in this map:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/ancient/british_prehistory/images/ironage_native_britain_tribes.gif


Some legends of the Picts; the Gaels; the Hungarians; Serbs and Croats (among others) also include mention of Scythian origins. In the second paragraph of the 1320 Declaration of Arbroath the élite of Scotland claim Scythia as a former homeland of the Scots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythians


Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.
this is from the Declaration of Arbroath
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html


The Scottish people (Scots Gaelic: Albannaich), or Scots, are a nation and ethnic group native to Scotland. Historically they emerged from an amalgamation of the Celtic Picts (east) and Gaels (west), incorporating neighbouring Britons to the south as well as invading Germanic peoples such as the Anglo-Saxons and the Norse.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scottish_people


Mid Northern Scots or Northeast Scots, popularly known as the Doric, refers to the dialects of Scots spoken in the northeast of Scotland.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doric_dialect_(Scotland)

now flag colors
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Flag_of_Scotland.svg/125px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/5c/Flag_of_Greece.svg/125px-Flag_of_Greece.svg.png

not sure how to interpret relation to Doric, Greek colours, and Albanian related name, and possible Illyrian tribe of origin...
and how to relate that with neigbouring tribes being Seurbi in Iberian peninsula and Serdi in Balkan....

Neander
20-02-11, 22:42
In south Balkan map you can find Illyrian Chelidoni close to Serdi, and of course lot of Hellenic tribes...
Wrong.

As Alexander Stipcevic, a great historian of illyrians from Croatia, said that Taulants are related to albanian word Dallendyshe (swallow), and Helidon in ancient greek means (swallow), it is clear that Helidones is Exonim, translation of Taulant into hellenic language.

There is no such thing as greek in illyrian lands.

Even there are exonims of Latins, for example, Pirustae- Dardans, Triballi-tricornensi etc.

We must open our eyes, the history is not game, to play with it.

Neander
20-02-11, 22:44
but Caladuni & Seurbi vs. Chelidoni & Serdi are interesting match as they might point out that some Illyrian tribes did travel to conquer new land together with potential proto-Serb tribe....

Serbs?? They even are not Slavs. They are some persian tribes from Iran related to Jats.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 23:43
Serbs?? They even are not Slavs. They are some persian tribes from Iran related to Jats.

http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/common_origin_croats_serbs_jats.php
that is typical Croatian propaganda... make story of own high worth origin and Serbian lower worth origin by inventing tribal name that has lower worth meaning for Serbs... Croatian quasi-historians as the one quoted in this article are often biased people in that respect.... I wouldnot trust their "findings" on this topic......same as I would not trust equivalent Serbian quazi-historian who claims Croats are just new name for Avars and how Albanians are settled in 11th century from Caucasus Albania...

how yes no 2
21-02-11, 01:45
Wrong.

As Alexander Stipcevic, a great historian of illyrians from Croatia, said that Taulants are related to albanian word Dallendyshe (swallow), and Helidon in ancient greek means (swallow), it is clear that Helidones is Exonim, translation of Taulant into hellenic language.

There is no such thing as greek in illyrian lands.

Even there are exonims of Latins, for example, Pirustae- Dardans, Triballi-tricornensi etc.

We must open our eyes, the history is not game, to play with it.


Taulanti are on map much more south than Chelidoni, so it is not likely same tribe...

but there is other thing - the name of the tribe ends on -don which indicates potentially Celtic people... now Serdi are also Celtic so it makes sense that they travelled together with Chelidoni... and Caladuni in Iberia are I think Celtic as well...and Scots gaelic self name Albanah reminds on Albanoi tribe that were as I remember also Celtic till recently wikipedia made them illyrian...
so guess it was very fasionable to be Celtic....


According to the Library and Epitome of Apollodorus, Illyrius was the youngest son of Cadmus and Harmonia who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous ancestor of the whole Illyrian people.[1] Illyrius was specifically born during an expedition against the Illyrians on the side of the Encheleans.[2]
[edit]Polyphemus and Galatea
According to the Illyrian Wars of Appian, Illyrius was the son of the Cyclops Polyphemus and his wife Galatea with siblings Celtus and Galas. The children of Polyphemus all migrated from Sicily and ruled over the peoples named after them, the Celts, the Illyrians, and the Galatians.[3] This particular genealogy was most likely composed by the ancient Greek founders of Epidamnus (Corinthians and Corcyrans) and preserved in Appian's work.[4]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

Galatians is same as Celts
so Illyrians might have been Celtic people as well...



Progeny

Illyrius had six sons and three daughters whose names were associated with specific tribes:[5]
Sons
Encheleus (Εγχελέα) of the Enchelaeae
Autarieus (Αυταριέα) of the Autariates
Dardanus (Δάρδανον) of the Dardani
Maedus (Μαίδον)
Taulas (Ταυλαντά) of the Taulantii
Perrhaebus (Περραιβόν) of the Perrhaebi
[edit]Daughters
Partho (Πάρθω) of the Partheni
Daortho (Δαορθώ) of the Daors
Dassaro (Δασσαρώ) of the Dassaretae
[edit]Grandsons
Pannonius or Paeon (son of Autarieus) of the Pannonians
[edit]Greatgrandsons
Scordiscus (son of Pannonius) of the Scordisci
Triballus (son of Pannonius) of the Triballi

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

now, Pannonians I relate to early spread of I2 in Illyria...as they are the people who settled Illyria after it was depopulated by Dacians...

Triballi are name used by some Byznatine authors for Serbs
Scordisci and Serdi are same people just Celtic and Thracian version of tribal name.... now link with Iberia suggests..

btw. looking at map Illyrian Scirtari tribe may be the origin of self-designation of Albanians (Shqiptari)

Neander
21-02-11, 02:05
Taulanti are on map much more south than Chelidoni, so it is not likely same tribe... In fact, Chelidoni were a branch of Taulanti. But until their name have the same meaning, they are the same tribe.

Chelidoni is a greek name for Taulanti.


now, Pannonians I relate to early spread of I2 in Illyria...as they are the people who settled Illyria after it was depopulated by Dacians...For me, Panonians are a branch of Big Pelasgic population like Illyrians.

Or like Apiani said:

[§6] These peoples, and also the Pannonians, the Rhaetians, the Noricans, the Mysians of Europe, and the other neighboring tribes who inhabited the right bank of the Danube (http://www.livius.org/da-dd/danube/danube.html), the Romans distinguished from one another just as the various Greek peoples are distinguished from each other, and they call each by its own name, but they consider the whole of Illyria as embraced under a common designation.
Whence this idea took its start I have not been able to find out, but it continues to this day, for they farm the tax of all the nations from the source of the Danube to the Euxine Sea under one head, and call it the Illyrian tax. Why the Romans subjugated them, and what were the real causes or pretexts of the wars, I acknowledged, when writing of Crete, that I had not discovered, and I exhorted those who were able to tell more, to do so. I shall write down only what I know.

Neander
21-02-11, 02:06
And no my friend, Illyrians were not Celtic, but Celts were an illyrian tribe.

Zajaz
24-02-11, 00:39
Tosks would on map of Illyrian tribes perhaps be Uscana as e.g. what was Etruria is now Tuscany...
Uscana is in area next to west FYRM, which explains large R1a in Albanians of FYRM who never mixed with Slavic settlers....
R1a and J2 is what connects Uscana (Tosk?) Illyrians with ancient Macedonians...


It does make some sense that Uscana's people (most likely Penestians) shared some links with the Macedonians. This has bothered to me for a long time but I couldn't find any fact to back my suspects on that matter. Can you better elaborate to me (because I'm amateur in Genetics) why do you think Uscana's people had the same Genetic markers with the Macedonians. You already mentioned R1a and J2 that possibly match them with the Macedonians. I've a couple of question: Is it proved that ancient Macedones have had these Genetic markers (R1a and J2)? Is any proof else to confirm that these genetic markers are found in any other Illyrian region (except Uscana)?

Thnx

P.S: I hope not to bore you with my frequently questions because as I said I am still 'pupil' in that field...and I'd like to learn more.

binx
24-02-11, 13:46
Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....

There is not a connection between Toskë and Tuscans.

The names Tuscany, Tuscans, Etruscans derive form Latin word tuscus, (probably from TURS, cfr Greek Tyrsēnoi/Tyrrēnoi). Tuscus is not an Etruscan word, and Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, not Tusci.

The name Tosk, (Albanian toskë), was borrowed from Venetian tosko or tosco that probably means "rough, crude", literally "tuscan". "Tosco" in Old Tuscan dialect means "poison", "poisonous" (Cfr. Dante, Non pomi v' eran, ma stecchi con tosco. Dante Inf XIII). Venetian and Tuscan both derive from Vulgar Latin.

As we know, Venetian Albania was the possessions of the Venetian Republic from 1420 to 1797 in northern Albania and Montenegro. Albanian language has many borrowings from Venetian. Never forget that Albanian language has borrowed so many words during the course of its history from Latin, Greek, Turkish, Italian (Tuscan), Venetian... Even from English.


"Albanian has borrowed more words than any other European language."

Source: Arion Kulla, The Albanian Linguistic Journey from Ancient Illyricum to EU, 2010, Linköping University Electronic Press, Sweden.

iapetoc
24-02-11, 15:10
in fact taulanti is area of tiranacause we know it was next to epidamnus (durres) and Apollonia,,
enceleians are next to lake ohrid,

tosk is a slavic word or thracian
in Greece we find the name tositsas - toskas - tokas among thracians of north East, and is connected with armani and Phanariotes (Greek -romanians from moldo-wallachia)
in fact a minister was name Averov - Tositsas and was Greek from Moldo-wallachia
Tokas is a common name to exchanged populations among Bulgaria and Greece at 1920-30
comes from tuk - tak here
in fact tosk and tok means local

how yes no 2
24-02-11, 21:25
There is not a connection between Toskë and Tuscans.
The names Tuscany, Tuscans, Etruscans derive form Latin word tuscus, (probably from TURS, cfr Greek Tyrsēnoi/Tyrrēnoi). Tuscus is not an Etruscan word, and Etruscans called themselves Rasenna, not Tusci.
The name Tosk, (Albanian toskë), was borrowed from Venetian tosko or tosco that probably means "rough, crude", literally "tuscan". "Tosco" in Old Tuscan dialect means "poison", "poisonous" (Cfr. Dante, Non pomi v' eran, ma stecchi con tosco. Dante Inf XIII). Venetian and Tuscan both derive from Vulgar Latin.
As we know, Venetian Albania was the possessions of the Venetian Republic from 1420 to 1797 in northern Albania and Montenegro. Albanian language has many borrowings from Venetian. Never forget that Albanian language has borrowed so many words during the course of its history from Latin, Greek, Turkish, Italian (Tuscan), Venetian... Even from English.
"Albanian has borrowed more words than any other European language."
Source: Arion Kulla, The Albanian Linguistic Journey from Ancient Illyricum to EU, 2010, Linköping University Electronic Press, Sweden.
hm, good point...

zanipolo
27-09-11, 08:23
In regards to this link

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html

It says there are 4 groups of Albanians, the Gabel, Gheg, Jveg and Tosk. Since reading many links on these people , I came to the conclusion that they are part Epirote and part Molossian. The DNA from Ferri's tests indicate
E* = 0.28
E1b1b1 = 30.28
G = 1.67
H1 = 12.78
I* = 13.61
J1* = 1.39
J2* = 18.89
K* = 1.67
R1* = 19.44

It seems, they do not have much "illyrian" I haplotype , but more northern Greek, Pelagasian and Levant hapolgroup readings.

@ Maciano , where did you get your Albanian tests from.?

Bodin
27-09-11, 18:23
I1 and I2b in Albania is from Normans and Saxon miners . I2a2 is Serbian and Croatian Sarmathian haplogroup ( North of Liesus was in Dioklitia , and during Dusan empire Serbs were settled there , there are some sources that claim Serbs use to hold up to Fier in south Albania during VIII and VIII century ) . R1a is mainly Illyrian , and maybe very little of it Slavic . R1b is Thracean . J2 is Thracean to , some of it could be Avaric - Avaric state in Northeast Albania in VII century . E is Illyrian ( it is main Illyrian haplogroup , and Albanians are mostly descendants of Illyrians ) , some of E could also be from Greeks . T , G and Q are minor haplogroups spreaded all over Meditteranea .

zanipolo
28-09-11, 00:19
I1 and I2b in Albania is from Normans and Saxon miners . I2a2 is Serbian and Croatian Sarmathian haplogroup ( North of Liesus was in Dioklitia , and during Dusan empire Serbs were settled there , there are some sources that claim Serbs use to hold up to Fier in south Albania during VIII and VIII century ) . R1a is mainly Illyrian , and maybe very little of it Slavic . R1b is Thracean . J2 is Thracean to , some of it could be Avaric - Avaric state in Northeast Albania in VII century . E is Illyrian ( it is main Illyrian haplogroup , and Albanians are mostly descendants of Illyrians ) , some of E could also be from Greeks . T , G and Q are minor haplogroups spreaded all over Meditteranea .

ancient documentation states no albanians anywhere, but albanian lands where settled by Epirote and Molossians, since I initially thought Pindo was a town in thessally ( home of the molossian/albanians. I found Pinto meant Pintus mountains, a region in northern greece.

Finding that the 4 "tribes" of the albanians , Gabel, Gheg, Jveg and Tosk have different haplotypes as provided in the link, would seem to indicate that albanians where a mixed race

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/S6ZYexugWoI/AAAAAAAACVA/1I9HXeBDFQY/s1600-h/albanians.png

It would be interesting to map where these 4 tribes are situated in albanian lands

Pyrub
28-09-11, 02:40
Is the frequency of Y-dna H1 high in Albanians?

That's really odd, if true.

This haplogroup is also very high in balkan gypsies as well as south asian populations.

Edit:

Apparently the tribes, per the link provided above, to albanian H1 are primarily gypsy tribes in Albania. Apparently a lot of people in Albania are gypsies. So, i'm not sure whether or not the albanians consider them albanian or gypsies.

Goga
28-09-11, 02:53
Is H1 from Gypsies?

zanipolo
28-09-11, 02:57
Is the frequency of Y-dna H1 high in Albanians?

That's really odd, if true.

This haplogroup is also very high in balkan gypsies as well as south asian populations.

Edit:

Apparently the tribes, per the link provided above, to albanian H1 are primarily gypsy tribes in Albania. Apparently a lot of people in Albania are gypsies. So, i'm not sure whether or not the albanians consider them albanian or gypsies.

articles below confirms what you say

http://my.opera.com/ancientmacedonia/blog/show.dml/9193511.

Since the Gabels where the Gypies and they only arrived in the 14th century, then this leaves the Tosks in the south, basically, epirote and Molossian lands from ancient times

Bodin
28-09-11, 23:52
ancient documentation states no albanians anywhere, but albanian lands where settled by Epirote and Molossians, since I initially thought Pindo was a town in thessally ( home of the molossian/albanians. I found Pinto meant Pintus mountains, a region in northern greece.

Finding that the 4 "tribes" of the albanians , Gabel, Gheg, Jveg and Tosk have different haplotypes as provided in the link, would seem to indicate that albanians where a mixed race

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/S6ZYexugWoI/AAAAAAAACVA/1I9HXeBDFQY/s1600-h/albanians.png

It would be interesting to map where these 4 tribes are situated in albanian lands
Yes but there was ancient Illyrian town in southern Albania( in that time Epirus Nova ) called Albanopolis and illyrian tribe Albanoi in which aeria it was .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanopolis
Hier is map of Gheg and Toska dialects of Albanian languague - border betwen them is on river Shkumba in central Albania.

5212

Bodin
28-09-11, 23:56
Yes there is many Roma ( Gypsies ) in all Balkan lands , they comed with Turks in XIV century . But there is no H1 in real Albanians - Roma / Gabels are separate nation

Pyrub
29-09-11, 01:26
Actually there's 2.5% H1 in Tosk and .6% H1 in Gheg, which are the non gypsy Albanian populations. Which does show some breeding took place between Albanians and gypsies, albeit, very little. One should not assume there is no gene flow from gypsies to Albanians, when the evidence indicates there is some.

zanipolo
29-09-11, 07:57
Actually there's 2.5% H1 in Tosk and .6% H1 in Gheg, which are the non gypsy Albanian populations. Which does show some breeding took place between Albanians and gypsies, albeit, very little. One should not assume there is no gene flow from gypsies to Albanians, when the evidence indicates there is some.


?
Its says 12.78% of all albanians is H1 or am I reading it wrong?
Unless you count roma albanian citizens as not being Albanians

The Gabels belong to the Roma minority, who first arrived to Albania around the 14th century AD
from present Bulgaria

Balkan Egyptians (Jevgs in Albanian) are a minority seeing themselves as quite distinct from the Roma
community. They are widely dispersed in the Balkan area and claim an Egyptian origin

The 12.78 % of H1 of Albania
would be 0.45% of non gypsie albanians
3.6% of Jevgs albanians non gypsie
9.1% of roma gypsie

So, in Maciano DNA per country, he needs to place H1 ( unless he excludes this ) for Albania not counting Roam gypsies at about 4 %

Bodin
29-09-11, 21:31
Actually there's 2.5% H1 in Tosk and .6% H1 in Gheg, which are the non gypsy Albanian populations. Which does show some breeding took place between Albanians and gypsies, albeit, very little. One should not assume there is no gene flow from gypsies to Albanians, when the evidence indicates there is some.
There was some gene flow but maybe in new times - in old times that was strictly forbiden in all Balkans - for native girl to be with Roma man - family would probably killed her , and for native mans to marry roma girls - not to make them childs , that was more common . Name for Roma in Balkans is Cigani , and that is derived from Greek word Atziganoi - untouchable. They acctualy lived nomadicaly up to begining of XX century . Maybe Enver Hoja ( president of Alabania in second half of XX century ) , contributed to mixing , when he forbiden any other nation , name or languague except Albanian , during this proces lot of Serbs were albanized to

Bodin
29-09-11, 21:34
?
Its says 12.78% of all albanians is H1 or am I reading it wrong?
Unless you count roma albanian citizens as not being Albanians

The Gabels belong to the Roma minority, who first arrived to Albania around the 14th century AD
from present Bulgaria

Balkan Egyptians (Jevgs in Albanian) are a minority seeing themselves as quite distinct from the Roma
community. They are widely dispersed in the Balkan area and claim an Egyptian origin

The 12.78 % of H1 of Albania
would be 0.45% of non gypsie albanians
3.6% of Jevgs albanians non gypsie
9.1% of roma gypsie

So, in Maciano DNA per country, he needs to place H1 ( unless he excludes this ) for Albania not counting Roam gypsies at about 4 %
Jevgs and Gabel are not Albanians they are separate nations , with different origins
I found this research :

Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming
Gianmarco Ferri1 Contact Information, Sergio Tofanelli2, Milena Alu1, Luca Taglioli2, Erjon Radheshi1, Beatrice Corradini1, Giorgio Paoli2, Cristian Capelli3 and Giovanni Beduschi1
(1) Section of Legal Medicine, Department of Diagnostic and Laboratory Services and Legal Medicine, University of Modena and Reggio Emilia, Modena, Italy
(2) Department of Biology, Anthropology Unit, University of Pisa, Pisa, Italy
(3) Department of Zoology, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK
ukratko.....
Materials and methods
Subjects
DNA of 360 unrelated healthy Albanian males, of which
165 were Ghegs (north Albania), 121 Tosks (south
Albania), 33 Jevgs (alleged Balkan Egyptians) and 41
Gabels (Roma of Albania), was purified from blood and
saliva samples using either the Chelex method [15] or the
QIAGEN micro Kit (Qiagen, Chatsworth, CA) according to
the manufacturer's instructions.
All the participants gave their informed consent, provided
detailed information on their geographical origin, and had
two generations of unrelated paternal ancestry in their region
of birth.
Results
Y-SNP variation
The binary profile (Fig. 2a–c ) mirrored the dual structure
(Ghegs/Tosks vs Gabels/Jevgs) observed at Y-STR variation.
Haplogroup H1-M52, which is strongly associated
with European Roma tribes and to an Indian proto-gypsy
ancestry [26, 29, 47], was found at very low frequency in
the major Albanian groups (0.6–2.5%) but was by far the
dominant haplogroup in the Gabels (68.3%) and the Jevgs
(42.4%). Conversely, haplogroups I-M170 and E1b1b1-
M35, which are common lineages in Balkan populations
[48, 49], summed up to over the 50% of binary variability
in the Ghegs and the Tosks but were less common in the
Jevgs (24.2%) and even rarer in the Gabels (4.9%).
Haplogroups J2-M172 and R1-M173 were observed at
substantial frequencies in all the four Albanian groups. It
has been suggested that J2 chromosomes were acquired by
the proto-gypsy founder population through a Turkish–
Aegean route and that R1 chromosomes entered in the
Roma gene pool by admixture with local European
populations [29]. For J2 and R1 lineages, no matching or
neighbour haplotypes with Egyptian chromosomes were
found in the YHRD (release 30, 23,979 Powerplex
haplotypes from 221 populations worldwide) and in a
manually edited archive of published and unpublished data
(17,351 Powerplex haplotypes from 136 Eurasian populations).
Chromosomes bearing mutations G-201, K-M9 and
J1-M267 were observed only in the Gheg/Tosk pair at
frequencies as low (4.2 in the Ghegs, 8.3 in the Tosks) as in
the rest of the Balkan area [30, 50].
The dissection of the main haplogroups into networks of
12-locus haplotypes is given in Fig. 2a–c. The network of
H-M69 haplotypes is in accordance with mode (strong
founder effect) and times (800–1,100 yBP) [51, 52] at the
origin of proto-gypsy migration from Asia to Europe and
points to a deep common ancestry for Gabel and Jevg
variation (rho-based TMRCA=1,110±582 yBP).
The network of I-M170 haplotypes is structured into
at least three sub-clades that we inferred to correspond
to I1-M253 (A branch), I2a-P37 (B branch) and I2b-
M223 (C branch) chromosomes [48] on the basis of
SNP-typed haplotypes (data not shown). Gheg and Tosk
haplotypes are closely associated with Balkan chromosomes
in all the three sub-clades, whereas Jevg chromosomes
appeared to be much more linked to Balkan than to
Albanian chromosomes on the B branch only. The latter
feature suggests that the flow of I chromosomes to the
Jevg Y pool might not have been mediated by the Ghegs
or the Tosks and most likely is to be traced back to an
early phase of permanence of Roma tribes in the Balkan
area.
The absence of close links between Jevg and North
African haplotypes in the network of E1b1b1-M35 chromosomes
makes unlikely a recent common ancestry in
Egypt. However, Y chromosomes with up to two mutational
differences at 12 STR haplotypes can be considered
compatible with putative Egyptian ancestors. Following
this, we searched haplotypes differing 0–2 mutational steps
from Jevg E chromosomes on databases. Three out of five
haplotypes fully matched with a total of 76 chromosomes
of Albanian (31.6%), Balkan (30.3%), Central European
(28.9%), Italian (1.3%) but also North African (5.3%)
origin. Whether the African matches (two haplotypes from
Sohag, Egypt; one haplotype from El Minia, Egypt; two
haplotypes from Sfax, Tunisia) are identical by descent to
Jevg chromosomes or they are the effect of convergence, a
phenomenon commonly observed among haplotypes belonging
to E-M35 subgroups [36] could be checked only by
typing a larger set of population samples for M35
downstream mutations.

zanipolo
30-09-11, 01:40
Jevgs and Gabel are not Albanians they are separate nations , with different origins
I found this research :

Y-STR variation in Albanian populations: implications on the match probabilities and the genetic legacy of the minority claiming
Gianmarco Ferri1 Contact Information, Sergio Tofanelli2, Milena Alu1, Luca Taglioli2, Erjon Radheshi1, Beatrice Corradini1, Giorgio Paoli2, Cristian Capelli3 and Giovanni Beduschi1
(1) Section of Legal Medicine, Department of Diagnostic and Laboratory Services and Legal Medicine, University of Modena and Reggio Emilia, Modena, Italy
(2) Department of Biology, Anthropology Unit, University of Pisa, Pisa, Italy
(3) Department of Zoology, University of Oxford, Oxford, UK
ukratko.....
Materials and methods
Subjects
DNA of 360 unrelated healthy Albanian males, of which
165 were Ghegs (north Albania), 121 Tosks (south
Albania), 33 Jevgs (alleged Balkan Egyptians) and 41
Gabels (Roma of Albania), was purified from blood and
saliva samples using either the Chelex method [15] or the
QIAGEN micro Kit (Qiagen, Chatsworth, CA) according to
the manufacturer's instructions.
All the participants gave their informed consent, provided
detailed information on their geographical origin, and had
two generations of unrelated paternal ancestry in their region
of birth.
Results
Y-SNP variation
The binary profile (Fig. 2a–c ) mirrored the dual structure
(Ghegs/Tosks vs Gabels/Jevgs) observed at Y-STR variation.
Haplogroup H1-M52, which is strongly associated
with European Roma tribes and to an Indian proto-gypsy
ancestry [26, 29, 47], was found at very low frequency in
the major Albanian groups (0.6–2.5%) but was by far the
dominant haplogroup in the Gabels (68.3%) and the Jevgs
(42.4%). Conversely, haplogroups I-M170 and E1b1b1-
M35, which are common lineages in Balkan populations
[48, 49], summed up to over the 50% of binary variability
in the Ghegs and the Tosks but were less common in the
Jevgs (24.2%) and even rarer in the Gabels (4.9%).
Haplogroups J2-M172 and R1-M173 were observed at
substantial frequencies in all the four Albanian groups. It
has been suggested that J2 chromosomes were acquired by
the proto-gypsy founder population through a Turkish–
Aegean route and that R1 chromosomes entered in the
Roma gene pool by admixture with local European
populations [29]. For J2 and R1 lineages, no matching or
neighbour haplotypes with Egyptian chromosomes were
found in the YHRD (release 30, 23,979 Powerplex
haplotypes from 221 populations worldwide) and in a
manually edited archive of published and unpublished data
(17,351 Powerplex haplotypes from 136 Eurasian populations).
Chromosomes bearing mutations G-201, K-M9 and
J1-M267 were observed only in the Gheg/Tosk pair at
frequencies as low (4.2 in the Ghegs, 8.3 in the Tosks) as in
the rest of the Balkan area [30, 50].
The dissection of the main haplogroups into networks of
12-locus haplotypes is given in Fig. 2a–c. The network of
H-M69 haplotypes is in accordance with mode (strong
founder effect) and times (800–1,100 yBP) [51, 52] at the
origin of proto-gypsy migration from Asia to Europe and
points to a deep common ancestry for Gabel and Jevg
variation (rho-based TMRCA=1,110±582 yBP).
The network of I-M170 haplotypes is structured into
at least three sub-clades that we inferred to correspond
to I1-M253 (A branch), I2a-P37 (B branch) and I2b-
M223 (C branch) chromosomes [48] on the basis of
SNP-typed haplotypes (data not shown). Gheg and Tosk
haplotypes are closely associated with Balkan chromosomes
in all the three sub-clades, whereas Jevg chromosomes
appeared to be much more linked to Balkan than to
Albanian chromosomes on the B branch only. The latter
feature suggests that the flow of I chromosomes to the
Jevg Y pool might not have been mediated by the Ghegs
or the Tosks and most likely is to be traced back to an
early phase of permanence of Roma tribes in the Balkan
area.
The absence of close links between Jevg and North
African haplotypes in the network of E1b1b1-M35 chromosomes
makes unlikely a recent common ancestry in
Egypt. However, Y chromosomes with up to two mutational
differences at 12 STR haplotypes can be considered
compatible with putative Egyptian ancestors. Following
this, we searched haplotypes differing 0–2 mutational steps
from Jevg E chromosomes on databases. Three out of five
haplotypes fully matched with a total of 76 chromosomes
of Albanian (31.6%), Balkan (30.3%), Central European
(28.9%), Italian (1.3%) but also North African (5.3%)
origin. Whether the African matches (two haplotypes from
Sohag, Egypt; one haplotype from El Minia, Egypt; two
haplotypes from Sfax, Tunisia) are identical by descent to
Jevg chromosomes or they are the effect of convergence, a
phenomenon commonly observed among haplotypes belonging
to E-M35 subgroups [36] could be checked only by
typing a larger set of population samples for M35
downstream mutations.


what are you saying?
I gave you this link from ferri

besides at least 4% of Albanians must be H1 ( excluding the Roma) according to Ferri

Bodin
04-10-11, 00:11
what are you saying?
I gave you this link from ferri

besides at least 4% of Albanians must be H1 ( excluding the Roma) according to Ferri
2,5% Toska has H1 and only 0,6% Gegh . This is from mixing with Roma , and it was not in Balkans before XIV century. And mixing occured as late as second half of XX century , when many Roma were Albanized . Thats what I saying

phoenix
04-10-11, 20:30
I dont believe that Illyrians were I2A2 people.I2A2 is closely related to the Slavic migration.High percentages have been found in North-East Romania Moldovia Ukraine and Belarusia.And we could never know the exact percentage of haplogroupes in nations.They are selected random yeah but that does not mean it is 100 percent true.Gegh Albanians especially those who come from a tribe are more homogenous than others.The presence of R1b is clearly underrated at Albanians some studies have shown percentage from 17-25 % of R1b.

sparkey
04-10-11, 20:35
I dont believe that Illyrians were I2A2 people.I2A2 is closely related to the Slavic migration.High percentages have been found in North-East Romania Moldovia Ukraine and Belarusia.And we could never know the exact percentage of haplogroupes in nations.They are selected random yeah but that does not mean it is 100 percent true.Gegh Albanians especially those who come from a tribe are more homogenous than others.The presence of R1b is clearly underrated at Albanians some studies have shown percentage from 17-25 % of R1b.

We've debated this also in the thread about Sarmatians. I tend to agree that Illyrians probably lacked "I2a2" (now I2a1b) and this is a point that Bodin and I agree upon (although we disagree about how it finally got to the Balkans). The remaining haplogroups in Illyrians can be gotten at by subtracting the haplogroups of the suspected migrations into the Balkans, namely I2a1b and probably R1a. That leaves a distribution that's similar to modern Albanians in most of the rest of the Balkans.

Pyrub
05-10-11, 06:17
Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion. There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.

Do you people have any formal education in biology and understand what geographic isolation is?

Do you know why geographic isolation is meaningful to the topic of gene flow?

If so, please elaborate. Because to state that I2a2 is not indigenous to Bosna/Croatia/Hercegovina and understand gene flow and how it related to geographic isolation would be a stretch of ones imagination.

phoenix
05-10-11, 09:00
Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion. There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.

Do you people have any formal education in biology and understand what geographic isolation is?

Do you know why geographic isolation is meaningful to the topic of gene flow?

If so, please elaborate. Because to state that I2a2 is not indigenous to Bosna/Croatia/Hercegovina and understand gene flow and how it related to geographic isolation would be a stretch of ones imagination.

We are talking about logic of course Pyrub.Gegh Albanians or Kosovars mountainers are more isolated than Bosnians/Croats/Montenegro and the rest of Albanians.They lack the I2A2 gene they have the same Illyrian traits and most importantly the language.Kosovars are predominantly EV13 R1b and J2b.I think R1b is the Indo-European Illyrian trait.I2A2 fails to explain the Indo-European language of Albanians and their ancestors Illyrians.I2A2 is also found in Moldavia Ukraine and Belorusia at high amount.This is my opinion afterall.I dont know how can you exclude the Albanians from the logic when they have the language the traditions and mostly the south genes.Kind regards.

phoenix
05-10-11, 09:02
We've debated this also in the thread about Sarmatians. I tend to agree that Illyrians probably lacked "I2a2" (now I2a1b) and this is a point that Bodin and I agree upon (although we disagree about how it finally got to the Balkans). The remaining haplogroups in Illyrians can be gotten at by subtracting the haplogroups of the suspected migrations into the Balkans, namely I2a1b and probably R1a. That leaves a distribution that's similar to modern Albanians in most of the rest of the Balkans.

sparkey considering that Albanians have R1b amount which sometimes were 17 to i think 25 % what do you think Were those Indo-European Illyrians R1b?which later assimilated the Balkan EV13 and J2b

zanipolo
05-10-11, 10:01
We've debated this also in the thread about Sarmatians. I tend to agree that Illyrians probably lacked "I2a2" (now I2a1b) and this is a point that Bodin and I agree upon (although we disagree about how it finally got to the Balkans). The remaining haplogroups in Illyrians can be gotten at by subtracting the haplogroups of the suspected migrations into the Balkans, namely I2a1b and probably R1a. That leaves a distribution that's similar to modern Albanians in most of the rest of the Balkans.

while yourself and Bodin might agree on the Sarmatians bringing I2a2 to the Balkans , the fact remains is to answer what marker was the illyrians. Do not say they where all E , because there are hardily any in central and northern illyria. Only E is in the south and I feel they where a dardanian/macedonia/Doric people.

some say , the central ( dalamatians ) and northern ( liburnian and pannonian ) illyrians where R1a1a . that needs to be proven.

sparkey
05-10-11, 18:22
Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion.

:rolleyes2:


There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.

Sure there is evidence, STR dating and diversity analysis, which points to a first millennium CE spread of I2a-Din-S, and indicates that I2a-Din-N is older. That places the center of diversity close to Belarus, not the Balkans, as we would expect if the Illyrians were the initial carriers. This is pretty well established among people who have analyzed Haplogroup I STR data. Ken Nordtvedt likes a first millennium spread via the Slavs, which seems reasonable to me. Try to do some research instead of assuming that we are using "fantasy thinking and logic."


Do you people have any formal education in biology and understand what geographic isolation is?

Do you know why geographic isolation is meaningful to the topic of gene flow?

If so, please elaborate. Because to state that I2a2 is not indigenous to Bosna/Croatia/Hercegovina and understand gene flow and how it related to geographic isolation would be a stretch of ones imagination.

Go ahead and make your point instead of expecting me to make it for you, because I don't know what you're getting at. The Balkans don't seem to be a special case of geographic isolation.

sparkey
05-10-11, 18:29
sparkey considering that Albanians have R1b amount which sometimes were 17 to i think 25 % what do you think Were those Indo-European Illyrians R1b?which later assimilated the Balkan EV13 and J2b

That sounds reasonable, they were probably an R1b IE branch with some other admixture like the Albanians and Hellenes.


while yourself and Bodin might agree on the Sarmatians bringing I2a2 to the Balkans , the fact remains is to answer what marker was the illyrians. Do not say they where all E , because there are hardily any in central and northern illyria. Only E is in the south and I feel they where a dardanian/macedonia/Doric people.

some say , the central ( dalamatians ) and northern ( liburnian and pannonian ) illyrians where R1a1a . that needs to be proven.

Actually I think that it was the Slavs that brought I2a-Din to the Balkans, not the Sarmatians like Bodin thinks. I've outlined the data I need to be convinced of the Sarmatian theory in the Scythian/Sarmatian thread. Otherwise, I feel like the data is pointing toward the Slavs.

And I wouldn't say that the Illyrians were mostly E, although I feel sure that they had a lot of E. Like I said, if we subtract the typical "South Slavic" admixture (I2a-Din and R1a mostly) from the Slavic-speaking Balkans, we get an Albanian-esque haplogroup distribution that was probably typical of the Illyrians... mainly a mix of R1b, E1b, and J2, with some important minorities like G2a. You're probably right that they had less E1b than Albanians, but I'm not going to attempt percentages because they're likely to be inaccurate without all the variables accounted for.

phoenix
05-10-11, 19:25
Probably mountanious Albanians have much higher amount of R1b in them than those percentages that were taken from cities where they consider themselves more religious and didn't have problem to mix with slav and turkish muslims.

Pyrub
05-10-11, 22:58
:rolleyes2:



Sure there is evidence, STR dating and diversity analysis, which points to a first millennium CE spread of I2a-Din-S, and indicates that I2a-Din-N is older. That places the center of diversity close to Belarus, not the Balkans, as we would expect if the Illyrians were the initial carriers. This is pretty well established among people who have analyzed Haplogroup I STR data. Ken Nordtvedt likes a first millennium spread via the Slavs, which seems reasonable to me. Try to do some research instead of assuming that we are using "fantasy thinking and logic."



Go ahead and make your point instead of expecting me to make it for you, because I don't know what you're getting at. The Balkans don't seem to be a special case of geographic isolation.

If you understand biological evolution you understand that there is no "special case for geographic isolation." Geographic isolation leads to disruption of gene flow. It is a large claim to suggest that I2a-Dinaric arrived in first millennium AD. It's even a larger claim because there is no evidence for it.

Now lets try to understand something, if you have trouble understanding evolutionary biology.

In the case of Albanians.

Kosovo is a geographically isolated area. It has a high percentage of E1b1b, which reduces in frequency as one travels north. There seems to be evidence that this population sprung from a foundry effect at around 525AD. This makes sense because of the frequency gradient of E1b1b is very large and thus it is justified to conclude, per STS diversity and frequency, that this population occurred from foundry effect. If the gradient was much less, and covered a wider area of land, we would be less justified in the foundry effect of E1b1b in the Balkans.

The frequency gradient of I2a2 in the Balkans is very large and covers a large area. Due to its geographic isolation, with the Alps on one side, and the Adriatic on the other, one should not assume gene flow from the 1st millenium CE was the cause of the frequency. There is no evidence to support this. Someone who believes this hypothesis either doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology or has an agenda. I really don't understand how someone could come up with this belief. A large gradient over a large area does not indicate a foundry population, but continuous gene flow between the populations over large time frames(a thousand years isn't large in evolutionary biology).

The fact that the Romans left very little genetic footprint in the Balkans agrees with my hypothesis. That the geographic barrier to gene flow prevented much of it from occurring. The Turks, having stayed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, show very little gene flow to the Balkans.

It is delusional to think that in the 1st millennium AD that an army, without any historical documentation swept through the Balkans and took over the indigenous people. Your claim requres a burden of proof that you have yet to show and it's intellectually dishonest to repeat something that is so absurd until you provide evidence for your claims.

I further believe you understand very little evolutionary biology and you lack the understanding to know that frequency and the amount of given satellites can manipulate data to arrive at any conclusion. You probably also do not understand that these are models and not facts and that they are certainly prone to error that otherwise any human would not assume. The models also do not take into account geography, which every evolutionary biologist would understand is perhaps the most important barrier for gene flow.

sparkey
05-10-11, 23:51
If you understand biological evolution you understand that there is no "special case for geographic isolation." Geographic isolation leads to disruption of gene flow. It is a large claim to suggest that I2a-Dinaric arrived in first millennium AD. It's even a larger claim because there is no evidence for it.

Of course it leads to a disruption of gene flow, what's your point? That it's so impenetrable that migrations couldn't have happened so quickly? Don't forget that Y-DNA is a biased marker that tends to magnify effects of migration.

And like I said, there is evidence for it, I don't know why you keep denying it. Ken Nordtvedt and Vadim Verenich are a couple of STR analyzers who have looked particularly closely at the clade. There have been studies as well, like I recall Eupedia poster "how yes no" posting some diversity maps of the clade that show that it peaks well outside of the Balkans. Quoting Nordtvedt:


I2a2a-Dinaric is just too young to not have been the result of a sudden expansion not much more than 2000 years ago.

Now to figure out from where the expansion began? The traditional Slavic "homeland" of the Pripet marshes is as good a guess as anything for me at the moment.

At a TMRCA of 2500 for the entire clade (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf) (S cluster being even younger), if it is Illyrian, that places the Illyrians as much later arrivals in the Balkans than expected, so late that it's a safer bet to say that it's not Illyrian at all and instead expanded out of somewhere else, probably near Belarus based on the diversity analyses I've mentioned.


Now lets try to understand something, if you have trouble understanding evolutionary biology.

Attack the message, not the messenger... I'm warning you as a mod, not because you're arguing against me, specifically.


The frequency gradient of I2a2 in the Balkans is very large and covers a large area. Due to its geographic isolation, with the Alps on one side, and the Adriatic on the other, one should not assume gene flow from the 1st millenium CE was the cause of the frequency. There is no evidence to support this. Someone who believes this hypothesis either doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology or has an agenda. I really don't understand how someone could come up with this belief. A large gradient over a large area does not indicate a foundry population, but continuous gene flow between the populations over large time frames(a thousand years isn't large in evolutionary biology).

How do you explain the modern distribution and diversity patterns if it originated in the Balkans? You run into the same supposed problems going the other way. The Balkans are isolated, but not as isolated as you imply.

It's not a large gradient anyway, only two major clusters seem to have expanded from a tiny population that only lived between something like 2000 and 2500 years ago. Looks like a quick expansion to me.


The fact that the Romans left very little genetic footprint in the Balkans agrees with my hypothesis.

Not really. Does the relative lack of Roman genes in England prove that there was no impact from the Anglo-Saxon invasion? Expansion of R1b-U106 in England is fairly comparable to expansion of I2a-Din in the Balkans.


It is delusional to think that in the 1st millennium AD that an army, without any historical documentation swept through the Balkans and took over the indigenous people. Your claim requres a burden of proof that you have yet to show and it's intellectually dishonest to repeat something that is so absurd until you provide evidence for your claims.

Except that's not my claim... I'm only saying that there was probably Y-DNA gene flow from migrations, probably Slavic, into the Balkans in the first millennium CE.


I further believe you understand very little evolutionary biology and you lack the understanding to know that frequency and the amount of given satellites can manipulate data to arrive at any conclusion. You probably also do not understand that these are models and not facts and that they are certainly prone to error that otherwise any human would not assume. The models also do not take into account geography, which every evolutionary biologist would understand is perhaps the most important barrier for gene flow.

I'd love to see the data you've gathered to come to all these fascinating conclusions about me. :laughing:

Quoting myself:


You are getting at some very important points, and I encourage others to remember how imprecise things like Y-STR and geographic diversity analysis still are. But the knowledge of statistical fluctuations is out there already, as you point out yourself. Genetic drift, variable mutation rates, and strictly-genetic selection often do come up in hobbyist discussions. And if we're all wasting our time when we speculate, how were we able to predict Ötzi's Y-DNA haplogroup? We thought about the data we had, speculated, and more than half came up with the right answer. Obviously we need to keep everything you mention in mind and assume that things like date calculations still have large error bars. But just as obviously, genetic anthropology has already taught us a lot that we didn't know before. I suppose we just need to be more precise about what the possibility ranges are, instead of looking for single answers.

zanipolo
06-10-11, 08:11
Actually I think that it was the Slavs that brought I2a-Din to the Balkans, not the Sarmatians like Bodin thinks. I've outlined the data I need to be convinced of the Sarmatian theory in the Scythian/Sarmatian thread. Otherwise, I feel like the data is pointing toward the Slavs.

And I wouldn't say that the Illyrians were mostly E, although I feel sure that they had a lot of E. Like I said, if we subtract the typical "South Slavic" admixture (I2a-Din and R1a mostly) from the Slavic-speaking Balkans, we get an Albanian-esque haplogroup distribution that was probably typical of the Illyrians... mainly a mix of R1b, E1b, and J2, with some important minorities like G2a. You're probably right that they had less E1b than Albanians, but I'm not going to attempt percentages because they're likely to be inaccurate without all the variables accounted for.

what is your terminology of slavs? ....pure slavs from russian areas or other people that brought the slavic language into the balkans in the 6th century?

If we say Albanians are original people of the south balkans, then as per ancient historians who called them molossians or epirotes then maybe they had R1b and got the E from the doric/dardanian ( modern kosovars). this is something to find.

On another note, if Fenni found nearly 4% of H1 in albanian people ( not including the Roma ), then why is this H1 missing from Maciano's country numbers?

zanipolo
06-10-11, 08:19
If you understand biological evolution you understand that there is no "special case for geographic isolation." Geographic isolation leads to disruption of gene flow. It is a large claim to suggest that I2a-Dinaric arrived in first millennium AD. It's even a larger claim because there is no evidence for it.

Now lets try to understand something, if you have trouble understanding evolutionary biology.

In the case of Albanians.

Kosovo is a geographically isolated area. It has a high percentage of E1b1b, which reduces in frequency as one travels north. There seems to be evidence that this population sprung from a foundry effect at around 525AD. This makes sense because of the frequency gradient of E1b1b is very large and thus it is justified to conclude, per STS diversity and frequency, that this population occurred from foundry effect. If the gradient was much less, and covered a wider area of land, we would be less justified in the foundry effect of E1b1b in the Balkans.

The frequency gradient of I2a2 in the Balkans is very large and covers a large area. Due to its geographic isolation, with the Alps on one side, and the Adriatic on the other, one should not assume gene flow from the 1st millenium CE was the cause of the frequency. There is no evidence to support this. Someone who believes this hypothesis either doesn't know anything about evolutionary biology or has an agenda. I really don't understand how someone could come up with this belief. A large gradient over a large area does not indicate a foundry population, but continuous gene flow between the populations over large time frames(a thousand years isn't large in evolutionary biology).

The fact that the Romans left very little genetic footprint in the Balkans agrees with my hypothesis. That the geographic barrier to gene flow prevented much of it from occurring. The Turks, having stayed in the Balkans for hundreds of years, show very little gene flow to the Balkans.

It is delusional to think that in the 1st millennium AD that an army, without any historical documentation swept through the Balkans and took over the indigenous people. Your claim requres a burden of proof that you have yet to show and it's intellectually dishonest to repeat something that is so absurd until you provide evidence for your claims.

I further believe you understand very little evolutionary biology and you lack the understanding to know that frequency and the amount of given satellites can manipulate data to arrive at any conclusion. You probably also do not understand that these are models and not facts and that they are certainly prone to error that otherwise any human would not assume. The models also do not take into account geography, which every evolutionary biologist would understand is perhaps the most important barrier for gene flow.


are you then saying that the large area in the Balkans for the I2a2 indicates a people that mixed easily du to their knowledge with each other, be it linguistic or .... Then if this is true and the slavic speaking people entered the balkans in the 6th century AD, would suggest the marker I2a2 is original to western balkans.
This does to a degree contradict historians of the illyrian people in firstly opposing they where a seperate entity from each other and secondly opposing this E haplogroup as being an illyrian ( part ) one

Shetop
06-10-11, 08:35
pure slavs from russian areas
What does "pure slavs" mean?
And who determined "pure slavs" are from russian areas?

zanipolo
06-10-11, 10:07
What does "pure slavs" mean?
And who determined "pure slavs" are from russian areas?

If the Romans did not know of Slavs but knew about sarmatians, then when these "Slavs" migrated to the balkans in the 6th century, where did they come from?
I say "pure" slavs , because slovene, croat and serbian historians do not say they are slavs but say they speak a slavic tongue.
Since the sarmatians where the ones that migrated into the balkans are they slavs and if so, why did no Roman historian recognise them as slavs.

sparkey
06-10-11, 17:44
what is your terminology of slavs? ....pure slavs from russian areas or other people that brought the slavic language into the balkans in the 6th century?

Well, I suspect that they were a population that contained a major "pre-Slavic" element from the region around Belarus. The South Slavic languages, when compared to the North Slavic languages, might give us some clues here about that influence, if it exists. But Balts are probably more direct descendants of the proto-Balto-Slavs, anyway, so looking for "pureness" of certain Slavs might not be worthwhile.

In short, I don't know... and we need to be careful with our terms.

Pyrub
06-10-11, 18:02
And like I said, there is evidence for it, I don't know why you keep denying it. Ken Nordtvedt and Vadim Verenich are a couple of STR analyzers who have looked particularly closely at the clade. There have been studies as well, like I recall Eupedia poster "how yes no" posting some diversity maps of the clade that show that it peaks well outside of the Balkans. Quoting Nordtvedt:



At a TMRCA of 2500 for the entire clade (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf) (S cluster being even younger), if it is Illyrian, that places the Illyrians as much later arrivals in the Balkans than expected, so late that it's a safer bet to say that it's not Illyrian at all and instead expanded out of somewhere else, probably near Belarus based on the diversity analyses I've mentioned.

That's not evidence, it's speculation, hypothesis and i believe it's totally bogus.

The 2500 year age of the clade is also speculation, based on models, which are more often than not, again, bogus.



How do you explain the modern distribution and diversity patterns if it originated in the Balkans? You run into the same supposed problems going the other way. The Balkans are isolated, but not as isolated as you imply.

It's just not plausible to believe that the low frequency gradient, and the vast area that I2a2 covers in the Balkans is a result of recent gene flow.

1) There's no evidence of it in history.
2) Evolutionary genetics indicate it's not true.



It's not a large gradient anyway, only two major clusters seem to have expanded from a tiny population that only lived between something like 2000 and 2500 years ago. Looks like a quick expansion to me.

Compared to E-V13 in the Balkans it's large. This is what the foundry aspect of a population looks like.

If we say that E-V13 came to Kosovo around 100BC to 525AD (which are 30/y 25/y generation estimates), we have an image of E-V13 in the balkans.
http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/E-V13plus-frequency.jpg

Notice that even a few hundred kilometers from the highest frequency of E-V13, the frequency drops to less than 10%.
This is due to
1) Geographic isolation which decreases gene flow
2) Recent arrival of E-V13 in the Balkans

Thus we see a large frequency gradient and a smaller total area. That being said, E1b1b in the Balkans does not only come from Albanian gene flow and has various other sources of gene flow.



Not really. Does the relative lack of Roman genes in England prove that there was no impact from the Anglo-Saxon invasion? Expansion of R1b-U106 in England is fairly comparable to expansion of I2a-Din in the Balkans.

You're proving the point that geographically isolated areas prevent gene flow and are not candidates for mass migrations of people.

I'm not arguing that I2a2 purely indigenous to the Balkans, my argument is that i don't believe there is any evidence to indicate that it's from recent arrival.


This is the frequency and area of I2a2 in the Balkans.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png
The frequency gradient is much lower (ie, the drop in frequency happens over a much larger area of land)
To me this indicates gene flow over a long period of time, and not a foundry effect such as E-V13 in the Balkans.

It is my conclusion that E-V13 arrived at the Balkans through the Greek slave trade, that it was mostly absent is many parts of the Balkans 2000 years ago and that the indigenous people of the Balkans were primarily I2a2 carriers.

The Croats being R1a carriers of north Croatia, and the Dalmatian coast being carriers of indigenous I2a2.

Pyrub
06-10-11, 18:10
If you need a clear example of a geographic barrier to gene flow, here it is.

R1b frequency in the Balkans.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/R1bmap.JPG

Notice that there's something preventing gene flow in Bosna and Dalmatian coast.

1) Geographic barriers prevent gene flow.
2) To the west we have the Adriatic, to the east we have the Dinaric alps.
3) I believe that I2 were sea people and arrived by sea/rivers to the Balkans.
4) I believe Ken Norward is full of it.

sparkey
06-10-11, 18:43
That's not evidence, it's speculation, hypothesis and i believe it's totally bogus.

The 2500 year age of the clade is also speculation, based on models, which are more often than not, again, bogus.

STR dating is an imperfect model with large error bars, but that doesn't make it "speculation," "hypothesis," and "totally bogus." And diversity analysis is much better than frequency analysis at demonstrating the movement of genes, and where they came from. So, yes, it is evidence, which supports my speculation and hypothesis about where I2a-Din came from, and when. For your speculation that Illyrians did have significant I2a-Din to be correct, the model would have to be wrong in this case, which is possible. But to assume that it is wrong in this case is to go against the evidence. OK?


It's just not plausible to believe that the low frequency gradient, and the vast area that I2a2 covers in the Balkans is a result of recent gene flow.

1) There's no evidence of it in history.
2) Evolutionary genetics indicate it's not true.

(1) is a valid point and it's important to square genetics with history. A starting point is to trace the expansion of Slavic languages. I'll admit that I'm not an expert on the subject, but others have put together coherent theories of the expansion of Slavs on the Balkans, like John V.A. Fine.

I feel that you have yet to demonstrate (2), however.


Compared to E-V13 in the Balkans it's large. This is what the foundry aspect of a population looks like.

If we say that E-V13 came to Kosovo around 100BC to 525AD (which are 30/y 25/y generation estimates), we have an image of E-V13 in the balkans.
http://www.arslanmb.org/ArmenianDNAProject/E-V13plus-frequency.jpg

Notice that even a few hundred kilometers from the highest frequency of E-V13, the frequency drops to less than 10%.
This is due to
1) Geographic isolation which decreases gene flow
2) Recent arrival of E-V13 in the Balkans

Thus we see a large frequency gradient and a smaller total area. That being said, E1b1b in the Balkans does not only come from Albanian gene flow and has various other sources of gene flow.

That's a pretty good demonstration of an E1b founder, I didn't know about that before, but you're not really tackling the I2a-Din data. How do you explain only two clusters with little variation within them?


You're proving the point that geographically isolated areas prevent gene flow and are not candidates for mass migrations of people.

Huh? How did I do that? England is geographically isolated from the continent, and yet Anglo-Saxons appear to have introduced tons of R1b-U106.


This is the frequency and area of I2a2 in the Balkans.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/06/HaplogroupI2.png
The frequency gradient is much lower (ie, the drop in frequency happens over a much larger area of land)
To me this indicates gene flow over a long period of time, and not a foundry effect such as E-V13 in the Balkans.

Well, it probably does indicate a longer period of time than the E1b foundry you're targeting. Or maybe not. Frequency gradients can be very deceiving, because we can get them from different patterns. For example, a sudden expansion and subsequent dilution in the area around the expansion point following the same geographic patterns will look like a long-term expansion if all we're looking at is frequency. So your frequency analysis proves little, although it's evidence for a longer period of expansion than the E1b. OK, so that could mean that the E1b expansion is more recent than the 1st millennium CE introduction of I2a-Din to the Balkans. What's the diversity?

sparkey
06-10-11, 18:55
If you need a clear example of a geographic barrier to gene flow, here it is.

R1b frequency in the Balkans.

Not a great map, Eupedia's is better:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif


Notice that there's something preventing gene flow in Bosna and Dalmatian coast.

No, you're misinterpreting frequency again. There is no reason to assume that the lack of R1b in certain areas of the Balkans is the result of R1b never being in those areas of the Balkans. It could very well be that other haplogroups expanded at R1b's expense in those areas.

Shetop
06-10-11, 19:19
@Pyrub

Some "non genetical" evidence from me:

How would you explain different linguistical situation before 6th century and after 7th century in Balkans? Before 6h century Slavs were unknown for people living in Balkans, and in second half of 7th century Slavic language was spoken in more than a half of Balkans. Slavic migration resulted in great diversity of Slavic dialects and even 4 (or 5) different Slavic languages existing in Balkans today.

My answer would be that only large number of people migrating could have resulted in what we have today. And only Y-DNA numerous enough to fit in this scenario is I2a1b1.

Second huge reason in favor of I2a1b1 arriving with Slavs is the one I did mention on the forum: Greek colonies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonies_in_antiquity#Greek_colonies). If I2a1b1 was in Balkans before common era than we would have it all over Mediterranean coasts.

Taranis
06-10-11, 19:26
Not a great map, Eupedia's is better:

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

No, you're misinterpreting frequency again. There is no reason to assume that the lack of R1b in certain areas of the Balkans is the result of R1b never being in those areas of the Balkans. It could very well be that other haplogroups expanded at R1b's expense in those areas.

I agree. I think that the most likely area where R1b entered Western Europe from is from the Balkans. Specifically, the more recent data on the more archaic varieties of R1b (excluding L11) suggested a peak in the eastern Balkans. It's certainly plausible that R1b was a lot more common on the Balkans 2000 or 3000 years ago than it is today.

zanipolo
07-10-11, 08:21
I agree. I think that the most likely area where R1b entered Western Europe from is from the Balkans. Specifically, the more recent data on the more archaic varieties of R1b (excluding L11) suggested a peak in the eastern Balkans. It's certainly plausible that R1b was a lot more common on the Balkans 2000 or 3000 years ago than it is today.

you don't think that R1b came by ship and landed between barcelona and genoa, then spread from there. The balkan scenario seems only plausible if they went via the danube river. But then when the celts went back down the danube later on, the percentages would have been greater in that area

Bodin
23-10-11, 22:20
If you need a clear example of a geographic barrier to gene flow, here it is.

R1b frequency in the Balkans.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6b/R1bmap.JPG

Notice that there's something preventing gene flow in Bosna and Dalmatian coast.

1) Geographic barriers prevent gene flow.
2) To the west we have the Adriatic, to the east we have the Dinaric alps.
3) I believe that I2 were sea people and arrived by sea/rivers to the Balkans.
4) I believe Ken Norward is full of it.
It dont seem like geographic barier to me , mising of R1b is clear prove that Huns , Avars and Sarmathians ethnicly cleansed previous population of Balkans in that aeria - before IV century AD there have to be significant R1b - because of strong Celtic influence
Same is with E -it was on Balkans long ago , and it is not from slave trade , only it was pushed on small aeria by incoming invaders and that is reason of such drop in percentages - boundaries betwen newcomers and old Illyro-Romans

Eldritch
19-04-12, 15:51
I'm amazed by the high presence of Slavic haplogroups in Southern Albanians {I2a2 and R1a}

Both together can reach something like 30%.

Any possible explanation?

Eldritch
22-05-12, 21:27
I1 and I2b in Albania is from Normans and Saxon miners . I2a2 is Serbian and Croatian Sarmathian haplogroup ( North of Liesus was in Dioklitia , and during Dusan empire Serbs were settled there , there are some sources that claim Serbs use to hold up to Fier in south Albania during VIII and VIII century ) . R1a is mainly Illyrian , and maybe very little of it Slavic . R1b is Thracean . J2 is Thracean to , some of it could be Avaric - Avaric state in Northeast Albania in VII century . E is Illyrian ( it is main Illyrian haplogroup , and Albanians are mostly descendants of Illyrians ) , some of E could also be from Greeks . T , G and Q are minor haplogroups spreaded all over Meditteranea .
There were no Normans in this area as far as i know.

Endri
22-05-12, 22:50
I'm amazed by the high presence of Slavic haplogroups in Southern Albanians {I2a2 and R1a}

Both together can reach something like 30%.

Any possible explanation?

That is cause of the Bulgarian Empire from the IX to the XI century which majorly affected the toponimics in southern Albania, still noticeable today cause unlike the neigbhouring countries, which mainly during the 1900 and after WWI, but even after WWII changed the toponimics, in Albania mainly cause of interior problems remain unchanged even today.

The maps I've seen do not show more than 20% combined but it's not like there are a lot of samples either...


There were no Normans in this area as far as i know.

Actually there Norman invasions during the XI and XIII century. Obviously their objective was not Albania or it's lands but they passed there.

I didn't find much on the internet about it (even though i didn't search much) but in Albanian school books are mentioned the 1065 crusade, 1085 Robert Guiscard crusade and the 1204 crusade (the IV crusade) which actually destroyed Constantinople and weakened Byzantium which lead in the creation of the "first" Albanian state (in fact it was a principality). The Principality of Arbër.

Eldritch
01-09-12, 16:00
The maps I've seen do not show more than 20% combined but it's not like there are a lot of samples either...




5714

This map shows 25% of I for Tosks that is probably mostly I2a1b and 24% of R1 that is probably something like 15-16% R1b and the rest R1a, it's more than 30% combined.

Eldritch
01-09-12, 16:11
Saying Illyrians weren't I2a2 is based on fantasy and delusion. There's no evidence to support this hypothesis and most biological evolutionary evidence seems to support a different hypothesis, that Illyrians from Montenegro, and north, were primarily I2a2. I really don't understand how people attempt to justify these claims. Usually they reside in fantasy thinking and logic. I do not subscribe to this fantasy logic.



Actually the real delusion is to believe I2a1b( Ex I2a2) is an Illyrian HG when it obviously appeared in the Balkans after the slavic migrations, They were more than likely a R1b elite that ruled indigenous E-V13 people.

zanipolo
01-09-12, 21:00
5714

This map shows 25% of I for Tosks that is probably mostly I2a1b and 24% of R1 that is probably something like 15-16% R1b and the rest R1a, it's more than 30% combined.

where does the second major HG in albanians fit in ( J2b2) ..........I thought this was tosk with influence from epirote/greek area?

zanipolo
01-09-12, 21:04
Actually the real delusion is to believe I2a1b( Ex I2a2) is an Illyrian HG when it obviously appeared in the Balkans after the slavic migrations, They were more than likely a R1b elite that ruled indigenous E-V13 people.

I believe the illyrians where all different tribes from central europe that move southward into the balkans ( getting away from the advancing germanic people who where pushing them from the north). I think these "illyrians" where R1b, R1a, I1 and other minor markers.

Eldritch
01-09-12, 21:19
where does the second major HG in albanians fit in ( J2b2) ..........I thought this was tosk with influence from epirote/greek area?
Actually it's higher in Ghegs and J2b2 isn't related much to Greeks since they're mostly J2a as most of the populations bordering Albanians. They were probably the legendary Pelasgians but i'm just speculating here.

Malsori
01-09-12, 22:49
In Kosovo R1b is higher than J2b2 i think. I am not sure about Albania. Two studies confirmed that, in one of the study R1b was 21.5% and in the other from Cruciani 25% while J2b2 was somewhat 17%.

Probably there was a haplogroup percentage changes from Illyrian onward Albanians. Maybe the EV-13 was not so common as is today. Important to note that in one study(cannot remember which) Tosks scored 10% with the Early Neolithic/Cardial Ware haplogroup G2a.

Yetos
01-09-12, 22:59
In Kosovo R1b is higher than J2b2 i think. I am not sure about Albania. Two studies confirmed that, in one of the study R1b was 21.5% and in the other from Cruciani 25% while J2b2 was somewhat 17%.

Probably there was a haplogroup percentage changes from Illyrian onward Albanians. Maybe the EV-13 was not so common as is today. Important to note that in one study(cannot remember which) Tosks scored 10% with the Early Neolithic/Cardial Ware haplogroup G2a.

That would be interesting
Very interesting
G2a is divided to certain groups

if it was correct It can tell us many, even things we can not imagine

Eldritch
02-09-12, 10:48
In Kosovo R1b is higher than J2b2 i think. I am not sure about Albania. Two studies confirmed that, in one of the study R1b was 21.5% and in the other from Cruciani 25% while J2b2 was somewhat 17%.

Probably there was a haplogroup percentage changes from Illyrian onward Albanians. Maybe the EV-13 was not so common as is today. Important to note that in one study(cannot remember which) Tosks scored 10% with the Early Neolithic/Cardial Ware haplogroup G2a.

There's not study where southern albanians have ever scored 10% G2a

Malsori
02-09-12, 15:05
There's not study where southern albanians have ever scored 10% G2a

Sorry, my mistake. I think it was Arberesh people in a Italian city which scored 10% G2a not Tosks overall.

Anyway, why is a Finn so concerned about Albanian genetics? I see most of your posts is about us.

albanopolis
21-03-13, 23:29
I read that 8% of Kosovo R1b is a special subclade related only to Kosovar's. Kosovar's really stand appart in Ballkans. There are 3 haplogroups centered in Kosovo E, J, R1b

Eldritch
22-03-13, 00:26
I read that 8% of Kosovo R1b is a special subclade related only to Kosovar's. Kosovar's really stand appart in Ballkans. There are 3 haplogroups centered in Kosovo E, J, R1b
It's R1b- M269.
An older clade that is typical for Balkans, Bell Beakers were R1b...

albanopolis
24-03-13, 03:24
It's R1b- M269.
An older clade that is typical for Balkans, Bell Beakers were R1b...Thanks for the explanations. I am a beginner in genetics. I like the forum, your comments and Maciammo,s most of the time.

dardanoilir
18-04-13, 17:00
real question about Albanians is their relation with Dardanians and Illyrians...

and while I am prone to believe that there is relation between Albaninans and Dardanians.....possibility for relation of Albanians to Illyrians is still kind of mistery....

also real extent of Illyrians is mystery.... especially condsidering that Slavs were by Jordanes described as race of Veneti thus Venetic people, and that Pannoni tribes (one of them that inhabited Plitvice lakes complex was carrying clearly Slavic tribal name Oseriates which is translatable as 'lake people') were called Illyrian tribes only based on fact that they lived in Roman province of Illyria....

basically, key question is whether Illyrians were E-V13 dominant or I2a2 dominant....

arguments for E-V13:
1) high variation in Dalmatia....
2) Steven Byrd claims that E-V13 in Britain is due to Roman soldiers from Balkan (I do not really believe this but it does make some sense). But there is no I2a2-Dinaric in Britain....

arguments for I2a2:
1) in Dalmatia is high frequency of I2a2,
2) low frequency of E-V13,
3) there is I2a2 spread along Adriatic in Italy.... and Illyrians settlement there are recorded in history while there were no massive Slavic settlements there...
4)Illyrians are described as tall people, with their tribes known just for long wars among themselves....
Albanians are in average shorter mediteranean people who never had real wars between themselves...
while south Slavs are in average taller people, and have history of wars among their tribes....

based on what i hear form you, i don't think you know that much of Albanians. this mainly about the Albanians fighting with each other, unfortunately the blood feud between two big families which before were tribes is still present in mountainous regions of Albania, my father's grandfather was killed only because he belonged to the GASHI tribe (so i also belong to the same tribe) from a guy of KELMENDI tribe. this is precisely the reason why Albanians remain divided today, because they were natural inhibitors of the region and did not think of invasion and grouping and state and politization until empires started invading our natural lands, then it was too late, as europe decided to split natural Albanian inhibited lands BTW the new comers-our neighbors, i guess besides greece

adamo
18-04-13, 21:11
Toshks and Gegh's where a J2 tribes that moved from Anatolia. Overall, Albanians, paternally, are a vivid admixture of several haplogroups with their own different points of origin. Although, the foreign "Neolithic" element is much higher in Albania than other countries of Europe, they're 25% E1b1b, 20% J2, ( about 50% foreign elements ). 15% R1b, 10% R1a and 12-15% I2a. Albanians are predominantly E3b + J2 with a mix of R1b, I2a and even R1a elements.

Prengu
22-04-13, 14:48
Toshks and Gegh's where a J2 tribes that moved from Anatolia. Overall, Albanians, paternally, are a vivid admixture of several haplogroups with their own different points of origin. Although, the foreign "Neolithic" element is much higher in Albania than other countries of Europe, they're 25% E1b1b, 20% J2, ( about 50% foreign elements ). 15% R1b, 10% R1a and 12-15% I2a. Albanians are predominantly E3b + J2 with a mix of R1b, I2a and even R1a elements.

Your data are all wrong.
Up +35-40% are E-V13, 22-28% R1b, 12-14% J2e, 6% I1 (exclusive is scandinavian/german), 3-5% I2b, R1a 2-3%

so R1b is second most common haplogroup among Albanians and is most highest in Balkan.

E-V13, R1b dhe J2e were at least more 8000 years that lived in Balkan/Anatolia.

Albania
22-04-13, 21:05
Maciamo i think Albania y dna .. must update..

Albania
22-04-13, 21:07
Your data are all wrong.
Up +35-40% are E-V13, 22-28% R1b, 12-14% J2e, 6% I1 (exclusive is scandinavian/german), 3-5% I2b, R1a 2-3%

so R1b is second most common haplogroup among Albanians and is most highest in Balkan.

E-V13, R1b dhe J2e were at least more 8000 years that lived in Balkan/Anatolia.
Have you 1 Source ?

adamo
23-04-13, 00:50
R1b in Albania never passes 20 or so % on a national level. J2 is found in about 20% of Albanian men. R1a is found in 10-13% of men. 15-20% haplogroup I all types combined, on a national level. E3b is found in 20-30% of Albanian men, but as high as 40% in certain regions, but never that high on a national level.

Albania
23-04-13, 20:01
R1b in Albania never passes 20 or so % on a national level. J2 is found in about 20% of Albanian men. R1a is found in 10-13% of men. 15-20% haplogroup I all types combined, on a national level. E3b is found in 20-30% of Albanian men, but as high as 40% in certain regions, but never that high on a national level.
Source ?.......

gashi91
23-04-13, 22:06
Source ?.......
Shqipe, te kom derguar nji Private Mail ne ket forum. Tmujsh lexoje.

albanopolis
23-04-13, 22:30
Your data are all wrong.
Up +35-40% are E-V13, 22-28% R1b, 12-14% J2e, 6% I1 (exclusive is scandinavian/german), 3-5% I2b, R1a 2-3%

so R1b is second most common haplogroup among Albanians and is most highest in Balkan.

E-V13, R1b dhe J2e were at least more 8000 years that lived in Balkan/Anatolia.My opinion is that Albanian samples are really small. Some are as small as 30 people so reliability of them is minimal. Only Kosovo samples are somehow acceptable (114 people) but still small to have a clear picture. We saw that when Croatian samples become 1000 people the difference of haplogroups reached over 5%. I believe that Albanian R1b is around 20% (from 16% they say we are) and slavic presence in southern Albania could be also 20%. We will know the real picture when Albanian Geneticists do a study. But again they do not show any interest to study the haplogroups in Albanian population. Bottom line: Samples are too small to be taken seriously.

adamo
23-04-13, 22:45
Sources: Expedia y-DNA chart, haplogroup frequencies of European countries Wikipedia. ( excluding Albanians in another country, only Albanians of Albania...nor did I include arbereshe Albanians of south Italy.

Matera
24-04-13, 01:37
I was wondering, I am tested positive as E1b1b1a1b V-13. I am Italian-Canadian of southern Italian Heritage specifically Matera,Italy. (I know my ancient ancestry is North African E1b1b1) but more recently would it be a possibility that for eg. 600-800 years ago my great-great,great,great,great,great grandfather might of been an immigrant from Albania or Greece or Turkey and immigrated to southern Italy. what are the percentages of what type of group of people I might of descended from. Speaking in a range of 400 to 1000 years ago. In my family some people say that we might of been Jews from Greece or somewhere in southeastern Mediterranean that moved to Italy for what ever reason.

kamani
24-04-13, 02:55
I was wondering, I am tested positive as E1b1b1a1b V-13. I am Italian-Canadian of southern Italian Heritage specifically Matera,Italy. (I know my ancient ancestry is North African E1b1b1) but more recently would it be a possibility that for eg. 600-800 years ago my great-great,great,great,great,great grandfather might of been an immigrant from Albania or Greece or Turkey and immigrated to southern Italy. what are the percentages of what type of group of people I might of descended from. Speaking in a range of 400 to 1000 years ago. In my family some people say that we might of been Jews from Greece or somewhere in southeastern Mediterranean that moved to Italy for what ever reason.

Some possible explanations:

-Around 1500 AD there was a big influx of albanians into southern-italy to escape the ottoman occupation. They still have albanian speaking villages there.

-it might be albanian immigrants or soldiers from roman times or earlier.

-it might be ancient greek from magna grecia in southern italy.

-or you're just italian, E v-13 has probably been in italy since the stone-age.

adamo
24-04-13, 03:08
Your ancestors migrated from North Africa (Egypt in particular) to the levant (coast of the middle east) from where they subsequently migrated to Balkans ( Albania, Serbia,Greece, Macedonia) a long time ago. During the Ancient Greek colonization of Magna Grecia ( parts of southern Italy) your ancestors migrated to the southern italian peninsula. E-V13 is a sub-branch of the Libyan/egyptoid E-M78, a non-negroid North African subclade of the extensively large haplogroup E family tree. E-V13 migrated to coastal regions of the Middle East and subsequently moved from there to the Balkans in extreme south-eastern Europe. About 25% of greek men still today find their roots from ancient NORTH-African blood, men similar to ancient and modern Egyptians in particular and not the E-M81 sub-branch that dominates Algeria/morocco etc, a different north-African branch. Also, Albanians have 25-30% E3b, 20-25% of Bulgarians, 20% of Macedonians and Serbians also, and 15% or so of Portuguese men. In Italy, where you hail from, it is found in 10% of men on a national level. The south and Sicily although, have frequencies of 18-20% E3b. These are the European statistics for E3b, the levels in north-Africa are SIGNIFICANTLY higher with all regions between morocco and Egypt, in a directly straight west to east line, having frequencies of 50% (Egyptians) to as high as 80% (Moroccans). All this E3b though in these North African countries ( and many European countries I stated) is not all E-V13, FAR from it, but its all E3b, as your subclade also is.

Nobody1
24-04-13, 04:23
I was wondering, I am tested positive as E1b1b1a1b V-13. I am Italian-Canadian of southern Italian Heritage specifically Matera,Italy. (I know my ancient ancestry is North African E1b1b1) but more recently would it be a possibility that for eg. 600-800 years ago my great-great,great,great,great,great grandfather might of been an immigrant from Albania or Greece or Turkey and immigrated to southern Italy. what are the percentages of what type of group of people I might of descended from. Speaking in a range of 400 to 1000 years ago. In my family some people say that we might of been Jews from Greece or somewhere in southeastern Mediterranean that moved to Italy for what ever reason.

Have you considered the Arbereshe?
Albanians (Arbereshe) were granted land in the Kingdom of Naples as early as the 1450s (Demetrio Reres) with a full scale migration after Skanderbegs death (~1470s and throughout the 16th cen.).

That would fit your time-range.

Boattini et al (2010)
modern Arbereshe Y-DNA in comparrison with modern Albanian Y-DNA (after ~500 years apart)
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html
http://imageshack.us/a/img32/8532/charttn.png
Unfortunately the chart doesnt specify the subclades:
E1b1b1a
Arbereshe = 28%
Albanian = 23%
I-M170
Arbereshe = 23%
Albanian = 17%
R1a1
Arbereshe = 13%
Albanian = 13%

But acc. to Cruciani et al (2007) E-V13 in South Italy = 8.51% / Sicily = 7.19% / Albania = 32.29%
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

This Ethnographic map from 1859, shows a subsatntial Arberesh (in Green) area near [prob. around] Matera.
http://imageshack.us/a/img521/2848/arbb.png
Other areas of Arbereshe in Lucania (Basilicata) are the Monte Vulture area Ginestra / Barile / Maschito

Yetos
24-04-13, 05:02
Have you considered the Arbereshe?
Albanians (Arbereshe) were granted land in the Kingdom of Naples as early as the 1450s (Demetrio Reres) with a full scale migration after Skanderbegs death (~1470s and throughout the 16th cen.).

That would fit your time-range.

Boattini et al (2010)
modern Arbereshe Y-DNA in comparrison with modern Albanian Y-DNA (after ~500 years apart)
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html
http://imageshack.us/a/img32/8532/charttn.png
Unfortunately the chart doesnt specify the subclades:
E1b1b1a
Arbereshe = 28%
Albanian = 23%
I-M170
Arbereshe = 23%
Albanian = 17%

But acc. to Cruciani et al (2007) E-V13 in South Italy = 8.51% / Sicily = 7.19% / Albania = 32.29%
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

This Ethnographic map from 1859, shows a subsatntial Arberesh (in Green) area near [prob. around] Matera.
http://imageshack.us/a/img521/2848/arbb.png
Other areas of Arbereshe in Lucania (Basilicata) are the Monte Vulture area Ginestra / Barile / Maschito


The difference in Arberesh is that never settle in Albania,
After Maniakis death they migrated to modern Albania from Italy, they revolt and they moved to Peloponese, (around 1040-1100 AD)
where they were forced to leave by Turkish admiral Barbaros,

zanipolo
24-04-13, 08:28
Some possible explanations:

-Around 1500 AD there was a big influx of albanians into southern-italy to escape the ottoman occupation. They still have albanian speaking villages there.

-it might be albanian immigrants or soldiers from roman times or earlier.

-it might be ancient greek from magna grecia in southern italy.

-or you're just italian, E v-13 has probably been in italy since the stone-age.


most likely north-african from the carthagian times...basically lybi-phoenician men, women and children, take to Italy after the defeat of Hannibal at Zama.

Eldritch
24-04-13, 16:31
most likely north-african from the carthagian times...basically lybi-phoenician men, women and children, take to Italy after the defeat of Hannibal at Zama.
Except E-V13 is very rare in Africa so probably some Balkan ancestor is far more credible.

Yetos
24-04-13, 18:29
Except E-V13 is very rare in Africa so probably some Balkan ancestor is far more credible.

hmmm
interesting, are we speaking about parthenogenesis of E-v13 in Balkans?

Balder
24-04-13, 19:01
Except E-V13 is very rare in Africa so probably some Balkan ancestor is far more credible.
'Rare', but it originated there.

zanipolo
24-04-13, 21:53
Except E-V13 is very rare in Africa so probably some Balkan ancestor is far more credible.

except in the 3rd Carthaginian-roman war in 146BC, the whole population was taken to southern Italy as slaves...Carthage was destroyed, the city was pulled down to ground level, the pine trees all cut down for Roman shipping, drinking water poisoned and the soil salted. We are talking here of a complete movement of people.

Eldritch
26-04-13, 11:21
except in the 3rd Carthaginian-roman war in 146BC, the whole population was taken to southern Italy as slaves...Carthage was destroyed, the city was pulled down to ground level, the pine trees all cut down for Roman shipping, drinking water poisoned and the soil salted. We are talking here of a complete movement of people.
Still E-V13 expanded into Neolithic in Europe so i doubt 146 BC Carthaginians could have contributed to any meaningful E-V13 in Italy.

Eldritch
26-04-13, 11:23
Have you considered the Arbereshe?
Albanians (Arbereshe) were granted land in the Kingdom of Naples as early as the 1450s (Demetrio Reres) with a full scale migration after Skanderbegs death (~1470s and throughout the 16th cen.).

That would fit your time-range.

Boattini et al (2010)
modern Arbereshe Y-DNA in comparrison with modern Albanian Y-DNA (after ~500 years apart)
http://dienekes.blogspot.de/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html
http://imageshack.us/a/img32/8532/charttn.png
Unfortunately the chart doesnt specify the subclades:
E1b1b1a
Arbereshe = 28%
Albanian = 23%
I-M170
Arbereshe = 23%
Albanian = 17%
R1a1
Arbereshe = 13%
Albanian = 13%

But acc. to Cruciani et al (2007) E-V13 in South Italy = 8.51% / Sicily = 7.19% / Albania = 32.29%
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/24/6/1300.full.pdf+html

This Ethnographic map from 1859, shows a subsatntial Arberesh (in Green) area near [prob. around] Matera.
http://imageshack.us/a/img521/2848/arbb.png
Other areas of Arbereshe in Lucania (Basilicata) are the Monte Vulture area Ginestra / Barile / Maschito
I tend to agree with this comment.

Nobody1
27-04-13, 02:38
The difference in Arberesh is that never settle in Albania,
After Maniakis death they migrated to modern Albania from Italy, they revolt and they moved to Peloponese, (around 1040-1100 AD)
where they were forced to leave by Turkish admiral Barbaros,

..... What?

albanopolis
04-05-13, 03:08
Your data are all wrong.
Up +35-40% are E-V13, 22-28% R1b, 12-14% J2e, 6% I1 (exclusive is scandinavian/german), 3-5% I2b, R1a 2-3%

so R1b is second most common haplogroup among Albanians and is most highest in Balkan.

E-V13, R1b dhe J2e were at least more 8000 years that lived in Balkan/Anatolia.
Those are suppose to be Kosovo haplogroups from Pericic, but you have gotten them wrong too.

Prengu
16-05-13, 20:11
Those are suppose to be Kosovo haplogroups from Pericic, but you have gotten them wrong too.

No, I counted all Albanians (Albania-Kosova-Macedonia).

40% of E-V13 and 27% R1b found among Albanians from Albania (Roewer et 2005)
34.8% of E-V13 and 19% R1b found among Albanians from Macedonia (Battaglia et 2008)
and 43.5% of V-13 and 21.5 % among Albanians from Kosova (Pericic 2005)

So average of V-13 is about 35-40%. Same goes about other haplogroups.

Olgerk
27-05-13, 07:10
in fact taulanti is area of tiranacause we know it was next to epidamnus (durres) and Apollonia,,
enceleians are next to lake ohrid,

tosk is a slavic word or thracian
in Greece we find the name tositsas - toskas - tokas among thracians of north East, and is connected with armani and Phanariotes (Greek -romanians from moldo-wallachia)
in fact a minister was name Averov - Tositsas and was Greek from Moldo-wallachia
Tokas is a common name to exchanged populations among Bulgaria and Greece at 1920-30
comes from tuk - tak here
in fact tosk and tok means local


In fact there is an explanation in Albanian for the word Tosk for example Tok, that is tosk dialect, means: together, around. Also Tokë means Land, ground terrain.

Marko94
28-05-13, 22:42
After this many post what is conclusion??

ukaj
04-06-13, 11:15
thats not true?arbanties migrated in few waves in 12ctry,13th,14th,,not 11ctry,.arbanties use our laws.they use the besa witch is only from north albania and montenegro,what tribe you hail from vella.you would be from same ancestor as myself,,thessaly in greece has the highest population of ev-13,you an me both know kosova albanians come from same tribes as us krasnichi,piperi,vaskechi, etc.now back to thessaly in greece most of the greeks of that reigion share same dna as us to north an kosova use same traditions and use our code the besa witch you know where it come from,what im trying to say thesally is very high population of arbanties,so maybe the arbanties migrated downwards long time ago an we stayed.what i do know about us ghegs is that we have still alot of pre indo european than many dont use anymore including the nasal vowels from the old times,

ukaj
04-06-13, 11:21
No, I counted all Albanians (Albania-Kosova-Macedonia).

40% of E-V13 and 27% R1b found among Albanians from Albania (Roewer et 2005)
34.8% of E-V13 and 19% R1b found among Albanians from Macedonia (Battaglia et 2008)
and 43.5% of V-13 and 21.5 % among Albanians from Kosova (Pericic 2005)

So average of V-13 is about 35-40%. Same goes about other haplogroups.

when you said albania has diffrent genetics to kosova albanians less percent than kosova albanians correct me if im wrong,,northern dilect an kosova dilect is easy to speak an can understand eachother?yes they do i know this,,but what i said belong is that most of the kosova albanians comefromt he tribe of north albania so this would mean that not incuding albanians to north to this table would make the genetics far less as the northern are the same people of kosova,kelmendi,hoti,are tribes of north albanian catholics,rugova albanians hail from the tribes of kelmendi,krasnichi tribe hails from the tribe of hoti both tribes northern an the biggest tribe of kosova is krasnichi an kelmendi,,do agree?

ukaj
04-06-13, 11:36
i dont want to insult but i think i know why he did so to your fathers grandfather,im from kelmendi an im not allowed to marry a woman from the tribe of gashi,,all the tribes of albania all fought eachother over lands crops etc,,all this happens still..i dont know if gashi tribe follows the kanuni but just a simple insult to a albanian from tribes whom follow the kanuni can result in death,the reason why i cant marry from gashi tribe is because many albanians from gashi tribe worked for the ottomans an more i will stop their because i dont want to insult you in anyway.the kelmendi an hoti are very strict we only mix from same tribe to preserve the blood.

ukaj
04-06-13, 11:42
If the Romans did not know of Slavs but knew about sarmatians, then when these "Slavs" migrated to the balkans in the 6th century, where did they come from?
I say "pure" slavs , because slovene, croat and serbian historians do not say they are slavs but say they speak a slavic tongue.
Since the sarmatians where the ones that migrated into the balkans are they slavs and if so, why did no Roman historian recognise them as slavs. behind the carpathian mountians,

binx
09-06-13, 12:22
This Ethnographic map from 1859, shows a subsatntial Arberesh (in Green) area near [prob. around] Matera.
http://imageshack.us/a/img521/2848/arbb.png
Other areas of Arbereshe in Lucania (Basilicata) are the Monte Vulture area Ginestra / Barile / Maschito

In Matera there were not Arbereshe.

And this map is very old, inaccurate and utterly wrong. It should be deleted and not used. In the extreme Southern Calabria (modern-day province of Reggio Calabria) there are not Arbereshe, but it's a well-known Greek area, called Bovesia (the other well-known Greek area is Salento in Puglia). In Eastern Sicily (modern-day province of Messina and Catania) there are not Arbereshe but it's a Greek and Lombard area. Puglia also in this map is completely wrong. And even province of Cosenza is wrong.

binx
09-06-13, 12:26
This map is right.

But just consider that today many Arbereshe settlements are not anymore so Arbereshe. And the map is based on the whole municipal territory. And not in the whole district is spoken the minority language. I hope You understand what I mean.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Linguistic_map_of_Italy.png

binx
09-06-13, 12:43
Still E-V13 expanded into Neolithic in Europe so i doubt 146 BC Carthaginians could have contributed to any meaningful E-V13 in Italy.

I agree with You. E-V13 was carried by Neolithic farmers.

binx
09-06-13, 12:53
In fact there is an explanation in Albanian for the word Tosk for example Tok, that is tosk dialect, means: together, around. Also Tokë means Land, ground terrain.

According to Vladimir Orel (Albanian Etymological Dictionary, 1998) Toske is a Gheg word borrowed from medieval Venetian (Venetian, Romance language derived from Latin) used to name the people from South. So Toske is an exonym and its meaning derives from Latin.

binx
09-06-13, 12:59
originally I think they were not ...
genetic is very different, and from what I heard dialects are quite different...

Tosks could be albanized Greek Epirot-Slavic mix....with Albanization taking place with spread of Albanians in times of collapse of Byzantine empire.



Genetics seems to confirm just that.

ukaj
09-06-13, 13:08
I belive gheg language was the mother of albanian languages,,i see alot of people saying arbreshe were tosks,,but if you look close you will see much older words shared with ghegs than of tosks,look at their nasal vowels,with gheg albanians its hard to explain to them because they live in tribal structures, they may have a high percent of ev-13 because they were not exposed to much to others,I do know the kosova albanians at one point were catholic albanians whom moved to kosova in 1700s well meaning albanians from tirbes of hoti,an kelmendi fled their only few from these tribes to live with other albanians from reigion,an they only mix with albanians from same tribes as they do from north albania,i think much has to do with the kanuni,

zanipolo
09-06-13, 13:14
This map is right.

But just consider that today many Arbereshe settlements are not anymore so Arbereshe. And the map is based on the whole municipal territory. And not in the whole district is spoken the minority language. I hope You understand what I mean.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ae/Linguistic_map_of_Italy.png



nice......but in the 2012 map they have a split seperating the 2 lombardys ( although the rest is same /similar to yours)


http://digidownload.libero.it/alpdn/Mappe/LinguePadanesi.png

zanipolo
09-06-13, 13:20
According to Vladimir Orel (Albanian Etymological Dictionary, 1998) Toske is a Gheg word borrowed from medieval Venetian (Venetian, Romance language derived from Latin) used to name the people from South. So Toske is an exonym and its meaning derives from Latin.

no such word in venetian...the closest is tosek which means poison.

albanexe is similar to the italian for albanian

i found this in bold what you said 2 years ago
The name Tosk, (Albanian toskë), was borrowed from Venetian tosko or tosco that probably means "rough, crude", literally "tuscan". "Tosco" in Old Tuscan dialect means "poison", "poisonous" (Cfr. Dante, Non pomi v' eran, ma stecchi con tosco. Dante Inf XIII)

the venetian words for rough are:
grubian
ruspido
sgruxlo
rough person = bagian

and
crude is bioto

so Dante meant poison and if tosk is from the venetian then its as stated above, which means poison

toscan is tuscan in venetian and the saying is "lurido come un toscan"........lurid like a tuscan

Yetos
09-06-13, 13:27
According to Vladimir Orel (Albanian Etymological Dictionary, 1998) Toske is a Gheg word borrowed from medieval Venetian (Venetian, Romance language derived from Latin) used to name the people from South. So Toske is an exonym and its meaning derives from Latin.

Tosk is after Tosco (Tocca) Italian family.

binx
09-06-13, 13:31
no such word in venetian...the closest is tosek which means poison.


It's medieval Venetian (not the Venetian modern language spoken by your ancestors emigrated to Australia). I strongly doubt that You know the medieval Venetian. And You always miss the point.

binx
09-06-13, 13:34
the venetian words for rough are:
grubian
ruspido
sgruxlo
rough person = bagian

and
crude is bioto



This is modern Venetian dialect! It's a waste of time with You.

binx
09-06-13, 13:42
I belive gheg language was the mother of albanian languages,,i see alot of people saying arbreshe were tosks,,but if you look close you will see much older words shared with ghegs than of tosks,look at their nasal vowels,with gheg albanians its hard to explain to them because they live in tribal structures,

It's not something that people say, Arbereshe is classiffied as tosk by serious linguists. And Arbereshe have in many case surnames of Greek origin and They mostly came from Arvanites-language Greece places.

zanipolo
09-06-13, 13:49
It's medieval Venetian (not the Venetian modern language spoken by your ancestors emigrated to Australia). I strongly doubt that You know the medieval Venetian. And You always miss the point.

link it and I will read it for you.

binx
09-06-13, 13:55
link it and I will read it for you.

No need, thanks. You are the most expert on Venetian in the world. I sadly admit. Bye.

binx
09-06-13, 14:00
Tosk is after Tosco (Tocca) Italian family.

The Tocco family of Lombard (Langobardi) origin from Benevento that settled in Greece (Epirus and other places)? Do You have any sources? I'm just curious.

I see that Toci (pronunciation? c=?) is a surname spread in Albania but it's also an Italian surname (Toci, Tocci) not spread in Arbereshe places and derived from Toccio pet name for Rober-toccio, Alber-toccio, generally Italian names of Germanic origin.

binx
09-06-13, 15:18
i found this in bold what you said 2 years ago


I have just remembered that We already discussed here, from post 139 to about 153 http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26431-Etruscans-Illyrians-Pelasgi-tuscans-albanians?p=393400&viewfull=1#post393400.

Still remains my full point fo view on the issue. We don't need to discuss anymore. The point is that Albanian Tosk is an exonym, and They weren't self-aware of a connection with Etruscans, of course. As we know, this connection doesn't exist, despite the claims of Albanian nationalists.

I add only this from Treccani:

Nell’ambito cancelleresco, amministrativo, giuridico, ecc., l’uso dell’italiano-fiorentino restava basato su conoscenze approssimative e condizionato dal volgare locale più a lungo di quanto accada nella lingua letteraria. Così, per es., le relazioni degli ambasciatori veneziani al Senato della Serenissima all’inizio del XVI secolo appaiono scritte in un volgare sostanzialmente toscano, cioè italiano, ma che conserva ancora elementi fonologici, morfologici e lessicali veneziani. Questo genere di lingua è chiamata spesso tosco-veneto. Nei decenni successivi i tratti locali vennero progressivamente abbandonati, e si giunse entro la fine del secolo a una pressoché completa toscanizzazione (Durante 1981: 163-164; Tomasin 2001: 158-164). L’adozione del modello toscano nel secondo Cinquecento e nel Seicento è un fenomeno che riguarda più in generale la lingua degli scriventi colti di tutta Italia. Da questo termine in avanti solo le scritture dei semicolti (➔ italiano popolare) presentano fenomeni di ibridismo tra la norma scritta nazionale, l’italiano, e la lingua parlata locale, il dialetto (Bartoli Langeli 2000).

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/volgari-medievali_%28Enciclopedia-dell%27Italiano%29/

It means that Venetians in the past wrote in a language more similar to Tuscan than spoken Venetian was (pay attention, the word tosco-veneto doesn't have a real connection with we are discussing about, the etymology of Tosk).

Marko94
10-06-13, 16:42
Binx, greek believe arbaresh are greek or don't exist and Skanderberg is greek LOL.
Not just in Albania exist propanga XD.

albanopolis
10-06-13, 18:22
Genetics seems to confirm just that.
Confirms what??? Can't you see, there is a fondamental genetic difference with Greeks and Albanians? If you keep glasses on when reading, its easy to see that Majority of Greeks is J2a+J1+G. South Albanians are J2b+I+E .
You greeks cluster with Turks, they are your Genetic brothers.

albanopolis
10-06-13, 18:25
Binx, greek believe arbaresh are greek or don't exist and Skanderberg is greek LOL.
Not just in Albania exist propanga XD.
Its unbelievable what ideas those Greeks have!!! Crazy, most of the time!! Turks came to Anatolia in 15th centuary they would say. Tell me now that is not stupid and crazy.

Yetos
10-06-13, 20:05
Binx, greek believe arbaresh are greek or don't exist and Skanderberg is greek LOL.
Not just in Albania exist propanga XD.

Funny isn't it, Most Albanians here,
sudenly many cause they are all military man, like to put words in other people mouth,

Check what I said, and then ask GODS to forgive you.

Yetos
10-06-13, 20:06
Its unbelievable what ideas those Greeks have!!! Crazy, most of the time!! Turks came to Anatolia in 15th centuary they would say. Tell me now that is not stupid and crazy.

they enter enter Anatolia at 1076. Officially by all Historians.

zanipolo
10-06-13, 20:16
I have just remembered that We already discussed here, from post 139 to about 153 http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26431-Etruscans-Illyrians-Pelasgi-tuscans-albanians?p=393400&viewfull=1#post393400.

Still remains my full point fo view on the issue. We don't need to discuss anymore. The point is that Albanian Tosk is an exonym, and They weren't self-aware of a connection with Etruscans, of course. As we know, this connection doesn't exist, despite the claims of Albanian nationalists.

I add only this from Treccani:

Nell’ambito cancelleresco, amministrativo, giuridico, ecc., l’uso dell’italiano-fiorentino restava basato su conoscenze approssimative e condizionato dal volgare locale più a lungo di quanto accada nella lingua letteraria. Così, per es., le relazioni degli ambasciatori veneziani al Senato della Serenissima all’inizio del XVI secolo appaiono scritte in un volgare sostanzialmente toscano, cioè italiano, ma che conserva ancora elementi fonologici, morfologici e lessicali veneziani. Questo genere di lingua è chiamata spesso tosco-veneto. Nei decenni successivi i tratti locali vennero progressivamente abbandonati, e si giunse entro la fine del secolo a una pressoché completa toscanizzazione (Durante 1981: 163-164; Tomasin 2001: 158-164). L’adozione del modello toscano nel secondo Cinquecento e nel Seicento è un fenomeno che riguarda più in generale la lingua degli scriventi colti di tutta Italia. Da questo termine in avanti solo le scritture dei semicolti (➔ italiano popolare) presentano fenomeni di ibridismo tra la norma scritta nazionale, l’italiano, e la lingua parlata locale, il dialetto (Bartoli Langeli 2000).

http://www.treccani.it/enciclopedia/volgari-medievali_%28Enciclopedia-dell%27Italiano%29/

It means that Venetians in the past wrote in a language more similar to Tuscan than spoken Venetian was (pay attention, the word tosco-veneto doesn't have a real connection with we are discussing about, the etymology of Tosk).


where does it say this?...............it states
5.2 Venezia

La produzione in volgare del Veneto è la più ricca della penisola dopo quella toscana, e fiorisce in diversi centri importanti, soprattutto a Verona e a Padova. Il primo posto tocca però a Venezia

basically it says, veneto is the richest language in the peninsula after tuscan and the centres of most importance, above all are verona and padua. But the first place is Venice ( primo=first, posto=place, tocca=touched, placed)

It also states fiorentine language is bad and confirms what I have always stated..........Italian regional languages came from Latin and the ancient tongue in the area, this is what is called Vulgar Latin ..........and Italian is a dialect of these regional languages and is basically an artificial language coming from NO maternal tongue. At best, only southern tuscany had the 70% of the 3% of the italian populace in 1870 that spoke Italian


tell me.....are you Albanian ?..........you seem too nationalistic in regards to Tosk.
IMO gheg is the true albanian tongue and the true albanians are centred in Kosovo. it states it in genetics and other points

Yetos
10-06-13, 20:19
Confirms what??? Can't you see, there is a fondamental genetic difference with Greeks and Albanians? If you keep glasses on when reading, its easy to see that Majority of Greeks is J2a+J1+G. South Albanians are J2b+I+E .
You greeks cluster with Turks, they are your Genetic brothers.


and again Albanian is Boring./

E-V13 has only 1 diversity in Albania
Paternal Diversity in Greece, and younger Mutation in Bosnia,

SINCE YOU ARE A GENNETIST WHAT THAT MEANS?

Cypriots have E Hg that you would envy,

Greece has also E-V13 but more diversities than ALbanian

YOU ARE SO MANY REPEATED,
THAT IS BORING AND DOES NOT MAKE LAUGH ANYMORE<
TRY ANOTHER JOKE.
LIKE WHY ARVANITES AND ARBERESH HAVE LOWER E-V13 THAN KOSSOVO, AND WHY MOESIAN VLACHS HAVE HIGH E_V13?

Tell me
how much far is Spain where E was found and what cluster and DYS, comparing with Konya E Hg?

Want More?
How old ddo you believe is I Hg in Balkans,?

Come on boy explain to us?

Or your Generals in Albanian propaganda office do not tell you?

Come on,

Is it coincidenece that in Original Arberesh the primary Village was Maniaki? after who took that name?
was Maniaki an Albanian?

YOU GUYS ARE BORING.

you put Original Arberesh in the same position of All Albanians that migrate to Italy,

Tell us Bektashi,
Did you made a DNA Test?
or you just join the Forum to make Propaganda?

in Sesklo G2a is Found at a time aproximately 3500 BC.

what E-v13 Neolithic?
where is found in Spain?
So Albanians are Neolithic Iberians?
Cause your Logic proves that?

Now go back to Turkey to find your ancestors.

binx
10-06-13, 20:58
tell me.....are you Albanian ?..........you seem too nationalistic in regards to Tosk.
IMO gheg is the true albanian tongue and the true albanians are centred in Kosovo. it states it in genetics and other points

LOL!

I have never laughed so much in Eupedia like tonight.

binx
10-06-13, 21:02
you put Original Arberesh in the same position of All Albanians that migrate to Italy,



Typical of Pan-Albanism.

zanipolo
10-06-13, 23:05
LOL!

I have never laughed so much in Eupedia like tonight.

i did something good for you ..........I am glad...enjoy

please, pin-point this info Tosk/Tosco in the article

Marko94
13-06-13, 21:42
and again Albanian is Boring./

E-V13 has only 1 diversity in Albania
Paternal Diversity in Greece, and younger Mutation in Bosnia,

SINCE YOU ARE A GENNETIST WHAT THAT MEANS?

Cypriots have E Hg that you would envy,

Greece has also E-V13 but more diversities than ALbanian

YOU ARE SO MANY REPEATED,
THAT IS BORING AND DOES NOT MAKE LAUGH ANYMORE<
TRY ANOTHER JOKE.
LIKE WHY ARVANITES AND ARBERESH HAVE LOWER E-V13 THAN KOSSOVO, AND WHY MOESIAN VLACHS HAVE HIGH E_V13?

Tell me
how much far is Spain where E was found and what cluster and DYS, comparing with Konya E Hg?

Want More?
How old ddo you believe is I Hg in Balkans,?

Come on boy explain to us?

Or your Generals in Albanian propaganda office do not tell you?

Come on,

Is it coincidenece that in Original Arberesh the primary Village was Maniaki? after who took that name?
was Maniaki an Albanian?

YOU GUYS ARE BORING.

you put Original Arberesh in the same position of All Albanians that migrate to Italy,

Tell us Bektashi,
Did you made a DNA Test?
or you just join the Forum to make Propaganda?

in Sesklo G2a is Found at a time aproximately 3500 BC.

what E-v13 Neolithic?
where is found in Spain?
So Albanians are Neolithic Iberians?
Cause your Logic proves that?

Now go back to Turkey to find your ancestors.
Source? where is source about arbaresh?
Not to compare DNA arbaresh with the Albanian.
Rember Arbaresh go in ITALY after 1400 not yesterday, and remember Arbaresh married with Italians, so it is foolish to compare DNA arbaresh and Albanian.
Arbaresh stay in italy 500 years, if you don't know!

Patriot
18-01-14, 13:13
If it wasnt for us holding back the ottoman empire 1400-1500 (the peak of ottoman empire) today u would have been speaking turkish in the middle of Paris
Source : Etnon ft Lyrical Son nd DJ Blunt - ALBANIA , music video, youtube

ukaj
23-03-14, 12:19
Hello stop with propaganda, stop with nazi, idea,

This is nazi idea of serbs, who wanna tell the world that Albanians are recent arrivals, and to expell albanians from Kosovo like they did in the 1999 when pushed away 1.000.000 peoples from their homes, and burnt tha houses etc.

Think of what your ideas might cause in the reality. Your ideas are cause of killing, massacres and terror, against albanians, for one hundred years.Bravo my brother so true,

ukaj
23-03-14, 12:24
and again Albanian is Boring./

E-V13 has only 1 diversity in Albania
Paternal Diversity in Greece, and younger Mutation in Bosnia,

SINCE YOU ARE A GENNETIST WHAT THAT MEANS?

Cypriots have E Hg that you would envy,

Greece has also E-V13 but more diversities than ALbanian

YOU ARE SO MANY REPEATED,
THAT IS BORING AND DOES NOT MAKE LAUGH ANYMORE<
TRY ANOTHER JOKE.
LIKE WHY ARVANITES AND ARBERESH HAVE LOWER E-V13 THAN KOSSOVO, AND WHY MOESIAN VLACHS HAVE HIGH E_V13?

Tell me
how much far is Spain where E was found and what cluster and DYS, comparing with Konya E Hg?

Want More?
How old ddo you believe is I Hg in Balkans,?

Come on boy explain to us?

Or your Generals in Albanian propaganda office do not tell you?

Come on,

Is it coincidenece that in Original Arberesh the primary Village was Maniaki? after who took that name?
was Maniaki an Albanian?

YOU GUYS ARE BORING.

you put Original Arberesh in the same position of All Albanians that migrate to Italy,

Tell us Bektashi,
Did you made a DNA Test?
or you just join the Forum to make Propaganda?

in Sesklo G2a is Found at a time aproximately 3500 BC.

what E-v13 Neolithic?
where is found in Spain?
So Albanians are Neolithic Iberians?
Cause your Logic proves that?

Now go back to Turkey to find your ancestors.Go back to turkey really,You going tom insult albanians with the turkalbanian shit.come on man did you know the greeks of today worked for the pashas an destroyed albanians an their land,mehmet the second mother was greek enough with insult,
http://youtu.be/e5VkTHqg3wA

noUseForAname
27-08-14, 19:22
by how yes no 2 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/30184-how-yes-no-2) - only respond to that is that science shows that E-V13 came to area 4000 years before present while R1a came 11500 years before present...

1. Which scientific fact are you based on E-V13 in the Balkans came in the Balkans state between 4000 YBP?
As you can see (see references below) from recent haplogroups distribution Haplogroup E-V13 (which was already in Balkans) is 10,000 YBP and E1b (which was already in Balkans) is 42,000 YBP. So you are 10th of thousands of years behind.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_E1b1b_Y-DNA.shtml

2. Then you mentioned "R1a came to the Balkans 11,500 YBP (Correct) However, (you are WRONG) when saying R1a is more indigenous then E1b
R1a is 23,000 YBP (see reference) and E1b (already in todays Balkans) is 42,000 YBP
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

noUseForAname
06-10-14, 00:25
I think good roots for tribal name are in general: religion related terms, weapons used, or some legendary ruler....

possible ruler whose name Geghs carry may be Gyges ruler of Lydia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyges_of_Lydia

I have idea that stories of Gyges may be about E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste ...as Gyges was shepard unrelated to royal bloodlines and did overthrow the previous king...that might even explain attacks of I2a2 Cimmerians on country of Gyges.... note that Gyges asked for help from Egypt and Assyrians...which may be about related E haplogroup people....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5f/Map_of_Lydia_ancient_times.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg


this would make I2a2 proto-Serbs and E-V13 Albanian Geghs sworn enemies long time in past, and perhaps even explain why there is almost no I2a2 in Geghs while it is present in all other Balkan people...

Tosks might origin from subjugated I2a2 and J2b of Lydia, who mixed with E-V13 and accepted their language and culture.... their tribal name might be of same origin as for Etruscans/Tuscans who are known to have settled Italy from Lydia.....

movement of Tosks from Lydia to Balkan happened at unknown time, but might be related with the hole in spread of J2b in Lydia.... when they left Lydia, the vacated space was settled by people of some other haplogroups which made a hole in spread of J2b in Asia minor and hotspot of it in south Albania...

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

1: E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste? ---- based on DNA facts I2b2 didnt came before E-V13 in that region, E-V13 is 10,000 years and I2b2 is only 6,000 years...http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_haplogroups_timeline.shtml

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1), which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.
It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes (Fig. S1).

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

This would claim that E-V13 is not originated from Egypt nor even north Africa as the percentage of E-V13 in those regions is minimal. This also claims that E-V13 is 10,000 years way before the Egypt era. Now if we are about to go even more backwards then E-V13 is originated from E1b1b , however because E1b1b is 42,000 years it would be almost impossible to find what race or their appearance were.

noUseForAname
06-10-14, 02:29
I think that R1a has had the least impact on Balkans especially (south east )from Montenegro Albania Kosovo Macedonia and all way east to Greece (talking genetically), you can see from the percentages below, if it came 11,000 years ago then it should surely had a much bigger percentage in balkans. They have came there but they were not first for sure, therefore still to this day they are a minority in balkans.

And also linking R1a with Palasgians doesn't make any sense at at.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml



Region/Haplogroup

I1

I2*/I2a

I2b

R1a

R1b

G

J2

J*/J1

E-V13



Albania

2

12

1.5

9

16

1.5

19.5

2

27.5



Kosovo Albanians

5.5

2.5

0

4.5

21

0

16.5

0

47.5



Albanians (Macedonia)

1

9


1.5

18.8

1.6

21.9


39.1



Greece (Peloponnese)









47



Greece (South)

3

20


2.2

19.6

5.5



43.5



Greece (North)

2

12


19

14.6

5.2



35.4



Greece (Crete)


13


8.8

17


39


8.8



Greece (Thrace)


19


22

12


19


19



Greece (ethnic Greeks)


19


16

11.7

9

17


19



Macedonia (ethnic Slavic)

1

33

1.5

5.1

15.2

1.5



24.1



Bulgaria

4

20

2

17

11

5

11

3

23.5



Bosniaks

4

56

0

16

3

2

3.5

0.5

10



Bosnian Croats

0

71

2

12

2

1

1

0

9



Bosnian Serbs

2.5

31

2.5

13.5

6

1

8.5

0

22.5



Croatia

5.5

37

1

24

8.5

2

6

1

10



Serbia

8.5

33

0.5

16

8

2

8

0.5

18

noUseForAname
06-10-14, 02:34
..........

noUseForAname
06-10-14, 03:56
Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum.

Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13.[68] The area in and around Albanian speaking regions has the highest known percentages E-V13 in the world, and it is thought that the majority of E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the Balkans in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, and that men of this lineage began to spread outside the Balkans as early as the Neolithic, or even as recently as the Roman era.[68][69][70][71][72][73]

In contrast, another major discovery relevant to the study of E-V13 origins was the announcement in Lacan et al. (2011 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFLacanKayserRicautBrucato2011)) that a 7000 year old skeleton in a Neolithic context in a Spanish funeral cave, was an E-V13 man. (The other specimens tested from the same site were in haplogroup G2a (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Haplogroup_G2a_(Y-DNA)&action=edit&redlink=1), which has been found in Neolithic contexts throughout Europe.) Using 7 STR markers, this specimen was identified as being similar to modern individuals tested in Albania, Bosnia, Greece, Corsica, and Provence. The authors therefore proposed that, whether or not the modern distribution of E-V13 of today is a result of more recent events, E-V13 was already in Europe within the Neolithic, carried by early farmers from the Eastern Mediterranean to the Western Mediterranean, much earlier than the Bronze age.
It appeared identical at the seven markers tested to five Albanian, two Bosnian, one Greek, one Italian, one Sicilian, two Corsican, and two Provence French samples and are thus placed on the same node of the E1b1b1a1b-V13 network as eastern, central, and western Mediterranean haplotypes (Fig. S1).

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

E-V13 is also found in scattered and small amounts in Libya (in the Jewish community) and Egypt, but this is considered most likely to be a result of migration from Europe or the Near East.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#cite_note-Cruciani2007-1)

This would claim that E-V13 is not originated from Egypt nor even north Africa as the percentage of E-V13 in those regions is minimal. This also claims that E-V13 is 10,000 years way before the Egypt era. Now if we are about to go even more backwards then E-V13 is originated from E1b1b , however because E1b1b is 42,000 years it would be almost impossible to find what race or their appearance are (as of now).

Autosomal DNA[edit]
Analysis of autosomal DNA, which analyses all genetic components has revealed that few genetic discontinuities exist in European populations, apart from certain outliers such as Saami, Sardinians, Basques and Kosovar Albanians. They found that Albanians, on the one hand, have a high amount of identity by descent sharing, suggesting that both Albanians from Albania and Kosovo derived from a relatively small population that expanded recently and rapidly in the last 1,500 years. On the other hand, they are not wholly isolated or endogamous, as they share a significant amount of descent with nearby Macedonian, Greek and Italian populations.[103]The recent growth is particularly evident in Kosovar Albanians, which show particularly high levels of homogeneity, in contrast to the diversity otherwise found in other Balkan populations.[104]
http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3815v1.pdf
Novembre J. et al. (2008) Genes mirror geography within Europe, Nature doi:10.1038/nature07331

Greek and Albanian language is 5000 years old as argued in the recent study.
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?ref=science&module=Search&mabReward=relbias%3Aw&_r=2&

Ike
06-10-14, 04:09
1: E-V13 taking over power of Lydia from previous I2a2 ruling caste? ---- based on DNA facts I2b2 didnt came before E-V13 in that region, E-V13 is 10,000 years and I2b2 is only 6,000 years.

As I've already told you. Who is older, doesn't prove a thing is this kind of conversation.

LumiBardha
27-12-14, 08:57
Got to love the Greek and Albanian calling each other turks as if it were a curse. You guys do understand that they created an empire in which both greeks and Albanians were a HUGE part of. because they have 5 percent or less mongol blood doesn't make them any less than either Albanians or Greeks. Both were under their rule for 500 years, is it possible maybe that they were smarter than both? to this day they have created an economy far better than either Greece or Albania and could probably take all that land they lost back tomorrow were it not for other superpowers. So please stop with the racist ideologies. Also, stop acting like you are not all close genetically because of your history, take a look at the western portion of Turkey, Greece then Albanians, I have been to all areas. They all look kind of similar to me

LeBrok
27-12-14, 09:33
Got to love the Greek and Albanian calling each other turks as if it were a curse. You guys do understand that they created an empire in which both greeks and Albanians were a HUGE part of. because they have 5 percent or less mongol blood doesn't make them any less than either Albanians or Greeks. Both were under their rule for 500 years, is it possible maybe that they were smarter than both? to this day they have created an economy far better than either Greece or Albania and could probably take all that land they lost back tomorrow were it not for other superpowers. So please stop with the racist ideologies. Also, stop acting like you are not all close genetically because of your history, take a look at the western portion of Turkey, Greece then Albanians, I have been to all areas. They all look kind of similar to me
Well said. Welcome to Eupedia LumiBardha.

LumiBardha
03-01-15, 10:44
I am Albanian from montenegro


Population
Percent


1
Atlantic_Baltic
54.1


2
Southern
26.16


3
Caucasus_Gedrosia
18.72


4
Siberian
0.73


5
African
0.13


6
East_Asian
0.1


7
Amerindian
0.06



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Bulgarians (Yunusbayev)
3.9


2
Bulgarian (Dodecad)
4.12


3
N_Italian (Dodecad)
4.29


4
North_Italian (HGDP)
5.48






#
Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

72.1%
C_Italian (Dodecad)
+
27.9%
Swedish (Dodecad)
@
0.58


2

51.2%
Greek (Dodecad)
+
48.8%
French (HGDP)
@
0.61


3

90.6%
N_Italian (Dodecad)
+
9.4%
Chechens (Yunusbayev)
@
0.63


4

78.1%
Tuscan (HGDP)
+
21.9%
Ukranians (Yunusbayev)
@
0.63


5

91.1%
N_Italian (Dodecad)
+
8.9%
Lezgins (Behar)
@
0.65




Admix Results (sorted):



#
Population
Percent


1
North_Atlantic
26.38


2
East_Med
20.75


3
Baltic
20.56


4
West_Med
18.98


5
West_Asian
8.25


6
Red_Sea
3.58


7
Northeast_African
0.67


8
Amerindian
0.61


9
East_Asian
0.22



Single Population Sharing:



#
Population (source)
Distance


1
Romanian
5.78


2
Bulgarian
6.33


3
Serbian
8.2


4
Greek_Thessaly
9.13




#
Primary Population (source)
Secondary Population (source)
Distance


1

72.6%
Tuscan
+
27.4%
Southwest_Russian
@
1.83


2

72.9%
Tuscan

+
27.1%
Ukrainian_Belgorod
@
1.84


3

57.5%
Serbian
+
42.5%
Tuscan
@
2.05


The second list is euro k13, the first is world 9

Mimani.M
09-02-15, 16:44
Who were and are the Albanians and their DNA?
No political discussions, please follow the rules of the forum. Hi there this is my test mesage

Djordjo
05-03-15, 20:16
In the begining , proto-Albanian speakers were living north of the Black Sea, along with proto Slavs. I beleive that at that time they were predominantly R1b L23* . Later they moved gradualy across Carpatian mountains and Beskides to the inner Balkans
, and lived side-by side with proto-Romanians for some time. Sometime in the dark age they moved and setlled in the modern-day Albania. It is very difficult to speak about any nation because it is a sum of milions of individuals

Sile
05-03-15, 20:25
In the begining , proto-Albanian speakers were living north of the Black Sea, along with proto Slavs. I beleive that at that time they were predominantly R1b L23* . Later they moved gradualy across Carpatian mountains and Beskides to the inner Balkans
, and lived side-by side with proto-Romanians for some time. Sometime in the dark age they moved and setlled in the modern-day Albania. It is very difficult to speak about any nation because it is a sum of milions of individuals

this is the latest theory.....fleeing from southern carpathian mountain area from the migrating "slavs" into Roman lands in approx 100AD . also the same time many dacians began going south to the safety of the roman empire

Skerdilaidas
07-03-15, 09:14
In the begining , proto-Albanian speakers were living north of the Black Sea, along with proto Slavs. I beleive that at that time they were predominantly R1b L23* . Later they moved gradualy across Carpatian mountains and Beskides to the inner Balkans
, and lived side-by side with proto-Romanians for some time. Sometime in the dark age they moved and setlled in the modern-day Albania. It is very difficult to speak about any nation because it is a sum of milions of individuals
Hey Serv, pass what you smoking this way, don't be stingy.

noUseForAname
09-03-15, 07:51
In the begining , proto-Albanian speakers were living north of the Black Sea, along with proto Slavs. I beleive that at that time they were predominantly R1b L23* . Later they moved gradualy across Carpatian mountains and Beskides to the inner Balkans
, and lived side-by side with proto-Romanians for some time. Sometime in the dark age they moved and setlled in the modern-day Albania. It is very difficult to speak about any nation because it is a sum of milions of individuals

Please read my earlier posts in this thread, because Albanians have the highest % of E-V13 in the world then it is very unlikely that they have come from north of Black Sea.
If you read more about E-V13 then you will have a better understanding.
On the other side even if lets say the Albanians were predominantly R1b, then its clearly not the dark age they came there....R1b passed by and settled in south east Balkans in small number i believe at least 5,000 years ago, earlier than western Europe which it is believed it went there 4,000 ago and found their home there.

Devils Advocate
09-03-15, 19:04
Please read my earlier posts in this thread, because Albanians have the highest % of E-V13 in the world then it is very unlikely that they have come from north of Black Sea.
If you read more about E-V13 then you will have a better understanding.
On the other side even if lets say the Albanians were predominantly R1b, then its clearly not the dark age they came there....R1b passed by and settled in south east Balkans in small number i believe at least 5,000 years ago, earlier than western Europe which it is believed it went there 4,000 ago and found their home there.


If you would guess, which people do you believe are the primary ancestors of the Albanians. Austrian linguists indicated that the albanians might not be illyrian, but that albanians have been roughly in the same area for atleast 3000 years.

Djordjo
14-03-15, 22:38
Hey Serv, pass what you smoking this way, don't be stingy.
Your mother is serv, nobody asked you anything

Skerdilaidas
15-03-15, 08:04
Your mother is serv, nobody asked you anything
Wrong! According to your ethnicity you have listed, your mom and pops are both Servs. No one asked you about your retarded Serv opinion either, so keep it to yourself.

giuseppe rossi
15-03-15, 16:34
Albanian language is about 40% Romance.

Wherever they come from, it must be from south of Danube river.

Ike
20-03-15, 13:53
Albanians have already incorporated a large body of autochthonous populations like Macedonians, Aromanians, etc. into their nation. It is hard to distinguish now what part of current Albanian population would be originally Albanian, and what part Albanized. The best bet would be to focus the research in the parts of Albanian vocabulary that has no proven ancestry in surrounding languages.

Skerdilaidas
21-03-15, 04:08
Albanians have already incorporated a large body of autochthonous populations like Macedonians, Aromanians, etc. into their nation. It is hard to distinguish now what part of current Albanian population would be originally Albanian, and what part Albanized. The best bet would be to focus the research in the parts of Albanian vocabulary that has no proven ancestry in surrounding languages.
Moron, can you tell us what are these "autochthonous Macedonians and Aromanians" that you are speaking of ethnically? "Macedonians" is used by Slavs and Greeks today, while Aromanians are equivalent of Gypsies, with their roaming life-styles. Albanians in other hand are an ethnicity based on blood relations that were strictly governed by Clans in the past. Morons like you should be silenced in such forum!

Ike
24-03-15, 23:01
As usual, typical Albanian despise towards knowledge and other people :)

Autochthonus Macedonians are Macedonians that lived here before we Slavs and you Albanians settled on Balkan.
Aromanians are not equivalent or even similar to gypsies. Amazing that you don't know that.

In what past were Albanians governed by 'clans'? Please refer to first mention of 'clan' (or similar phenomenon) in Albanians.

mihaitzateo
25-03-15, 00:10
Albanians should have been R1B and R1A clades people,I mean those who have spread Albanian language.
If you would look on some genetic testing of Albanian highlanders,they have higher R1A than Albanian low-landers.
That R1A can not be from Slavic speakers.
They came,conquered and assimilated E-V13 and J2 Neolithic people.
No idea to which group proto-Albanian speakers were included,they were and are Satem speakers,so they are from IE group with Slavs,Armenians,Iranians.
As for the tales of some Slavs,that they are descending from India,those are fairy tales.
Maybe proto-Albanian speakers were included between Thracians or who knows.
Proto-people from Balkans were neither Slavic neither Albanian speakers,they were E-v13 and J2 and I2 people.

Skerdilaidas
25-03-15, 02:56
Albanians should have been R1B and R1A clades people,I mean those who have spread Albanian language.
If you would look on some genetic testing of Albanian highlanders,they have higher R1A than Albanian low-landers.
That R1A can not be from Slavic speakers.
They came,conquered and assimilated E-V13 and J2 Neolithic people.
No idea to which group proto-Albanian speakers were included,they were and are Satem speakers,so they are from IE group with Slavs,Armenians,Iranians.
As for the tales of some Slavs,that they are descending from India,those are fairy tales.
Maybe proto-Albanian speakers were included between Thracians or who knows.
Proto-people from Balkans were neither Slavic neither Albanian speakers,they were E-v13 and J2 and I2 people.

Albanian Highlanders don't have any R1a, it's only the low landers that do have some low %, and mostly in the low lands of Central and Southern Albania. Gheg Highlanders and Kosovars for example are almost entirely E-V13, J2b, R1b, with minor I2 and I1:

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/abanian-dna-poject/about/results


R1a that is found today on Albanians is indeed what some people would consider "Slavic clades". You should do some research before you comment, me thinks.

Skerdilaidas
25-03-15, 03:01
As usual, typical Albanian despise towards knowledge and other people :)

Autochthonus Macedonians are Macedonians that lived here before we Slavs and you Albanians settled on Balkan.
Aromanians are not equivalent or even similar to gypsies. Amazing that you don't know that.

In what past were Albanians governed by 'clans'? Please refer to first mention of 'clan' (or similar phenomenon) in Albanians.
Knowledge is key! Please do tell when Albanians settled on Balkans, I would very much like to know. Oh, and source your opinion if you want people to take you seriously. Albanians even to this day have retained their old Clan traditions, specifically the Ghegs. You should look into it.

Hauteville
25-03-15, 03:52
Here a study (a bit old) of the Balkans Y-Dna.
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf

Ike
25-03-15, 05:34
Knowledge is key! Please do tell when Albanians settled on Balkans, I would very much like to know.
Probably sometime between no mentioning of them, and first mentioning of them.


Albanians even to this day have retained their old Clan traditions, specifically the Ghegs. You should look into it.
Once again. How old are those traditions among Albanians? How do you know those are Albanian traditions?




Here a study (a bit old) of the Balkans Y-Dna.
http://www.draganprimorac.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Battaglia.pdf

Yes, we've all read that study. Need new data, as you've noted.

Skerdilaidas
25-03-15, 06:17
Probably sometime between no mentioning of them, and first mentioning of them.


Once again. How old are those traditions among Albanians? How do you know those are Albanian traditions?
You are a funny guy, I must say. Reason, because you enter such thread without even knowing spit about Albanians. Clan/Tribes have been noted to be our traditions ever since we have been recorded in history, Fis they were called by the Ghegs, and Fara by Tosks and were governed by the law called Kanun. You ask if they were our traditions. Whose traditions would they be if not ours? lol

Only other Balkaners that have similar Clan traditions are the Montenegrins, for obvious reasons, of course. Some of their bigger Clans also share ancestry with our Clans, like Kuci, Piperi etc.

Ike
27-03-15, 04:44
You are a funny guy, I must say. Reason, because you enter such thread without even knowing spit about Albanians. Clan/Tribes have been noted to be our traditions ever since we have been recorded in history, Fis they were called by the Ghegs, and Fara by Tosks and were governed by the law called Kanun. You ask if they were our traditions. Whose traditions would they be if not ours? lol

Only other Balkaners that have similar Clan traditions are the Montenegrins, for obvious reasons, of course. Some of their bigger Clans also share ancestry with our Clans, like Kuci, Piperi etc.

For the third time.... the year and the source?

Skerdilaidas
27-03-15, 06:22
For the third time.... the year and the source?
I am not your butler. Do some research before you engage in such debate, because I don't have the time nor the nerves to school you on every little detail.

Melancon
27-03-15, 13:19
Albanians should have been R1B and R1A clades people,I mean those who have spread Albanian language.
If you would look on some genetic testing of Albanian highlanders,they have higher R1A than Albanian low-landers.
That R1A can not be from Slavic speakers.
They came,conquered and assimilated E-V13 and J2 Neolithic people.
No idea to which group proto-Albanian speakers were included,they were and are Satem speakers,so they are from IE group with Slavs,Armenians,Iranians.
As for the tales of some Slavs,that they are descending from India,those are fairy tales.
Maybe proto-Albanian speakers were included between Thracians or who knows.
Proto-people from Balkans were neither Slavic neither Albanian speakers,they were E-v13 and J2 and I2 people.Unless J2b was also Indo-European.

Methinks that the E-V13 individuals were met with an Indo-European population carrying the R1b and J1b subclade. They spoke the IE language that became Proto-Albanian.

Skerdilaidas
27-03-15, 16:30
J1 is found among us in very small percentage, not even 2%:

http://oi61.tinypic.com/ngwsx5.jpg

Ike
28-03-15, 17:06
I am not your butler. Do some research before you engage in such debate, because I don't have the time nor the nerves to school you on every little detail.

You're using a kindergarten argumentation. If you don't have the nerves to prove your points, well ...
BTW, he should be talking about J2b, that was probably a typo.

noUseForAname
31-03-15, 18:51
If you would guess, which people do you believe are the primary ancestors of the Albanians. Austrian linguists indicated that the albanians might not be illyrian, but that albanians have been roughly in the same area for atleast 3000 years.

If i might guess all the dna facts links to E-V13, and i believe the majority of ancient tribes who lived in those areas E-V13 were Pelazgians (as a majority, as other tribes and haplogroups would have been there as a mix for sure), now call them illyrian or pelazgian am not sure, i am more into Pelazgian theory cause E-V13 is 9,000 years autochronous in todays area of Greece Albania Macedonia and Kosovo. And Pelazgians are believed to live in those areas before they were Hellenized, i guess they were at these locations at least 4,000 years ago.

for more info....http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30562-Palasgians-pre-Ancient-Greeks-would-their-DNA-be-E-V13

Skerdilaidas
01-04-15, 04:22
If i might guess all the dna facts links to E-V13, and i believe the majority of ancient tribes who lived in those areas E-V13 were Pelazgians (as a majority, as other tribes and haplogroups would have been there as a mix for sure), now call them illyrian or pelazgian am not sure, i am more into Pelazgian theory cause E-V13 is 9,000 years autochronous in todays area of Greece Albania Macedonia and Kosovo. And Pelazgians are believed to live in those areas before they were Hellenized, i guess they were at these locations at least 4,000 years ago.

for more info....http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30562-Palasgians-pre-Ancient-Greeks-would-their-DNA-be-E-V13

Pelazgians were not Indo-European in speech. They probably spoke a language derived from Neolithic farmers similar to Etruscans, and maybe even Basques. E-V13 got absorbed by proto Albanians that brought the Indo-European language that we speak today, similar to how they got also absorbed by Greeks in Greece.

Rethel
01-04-15, 14:26
The best bet would be to focus the research in the parts of Albanian vocabulary that has no proven ancestry in surrounding languages.

Do you have Ike, some statistics about vocabulary?
How many words come from slavic, romanic, hellenic, aso languages?
How many are original or of unknown origin?

Melancon
01-04-15, 15:55
Pelazgians were not Indo-European in speech. They probably spoke a language derived from Neolithic farmers similar to Etruscans, and maybe even Basques. E-V13 got absorbed by proto Albanians that brought the Indo-European language that we speak today, similar to how they got also absorbed by Greeks in Greece.I have always thought that E-V13 individuals spoke dialects similar to Etruscan as well. Interesting analysis.

Maybe some of the Albanians were related to these Etruscan speaking people; but were later assimilated into an Indo-European culture. Which may explain why almost half of the Albanian Y-DNA is dominated by Bronze Age DNA (R1b, J2) while the other half is mostly Neolithic. (E-V13)

Ike
01-04-15, 20:48
Do you have Ike, some statistics about vocabulary?
How many words come from slavic, romanic, hellenic, aso languages?
How many are original or of unknown origin?



"In Meyer’s Etymological dictionary of Albanian, of 5140 “keywords” 1420 are Romance, 540 Slavonic, 1180 Turkish, 840 Modern Greek, and only 400 have a more or less reliable IE etymology. 730 words have no etymology whatsoever. During the past century, I would say that the number of words with IE etymology has risen, while some of Meyer’s Romance etymologies have been rejected, but the number of loan-words in Albanian is still disproportionately high." (Source (http://mudrac.ffzg.unizg.hr/~rmatasov/Albanian.pdf))

That would mean:
Romance - 28%
Slavonic - 10%
Turkish - 23%
Greek - 16%
IE - 8 %
unknown - 14 %

Gustav Meyer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustav_Meyer) was XIX century German linguist. Number of Turkish loanwords is high which correlates with period of pinnacle of Turkish influence.

1. Pre-Proto-Albanian (? -1st century B.C.). This is the period before the earliest contacts of Latin and Albanian.
2. Early Proto-Albanian (1st century B.C. -6th century). This is the period of intensive borrowing from Latin into Albanian, before the earliest contacts with the Slavs.
3. (Late) Proto-Albanian (6th century - 15th century). This is the period of intensive contacts of Albanians and Slavs.
4. Early Albanian (15th century - 1800). Roughly, this is the period of the earliest Albanian writings, as well as the period during which most of the Turkish loan-words entered the language.
5. (Modern) Albanian (1800 - present).




Other research summarizes that (source (http://old.fil.bg.ac.rs/katedre/albanologija/jezik.pdf)):

Based on a survey of a large number of international and Albanian linguists, on etymological origin of the word of the Albanian language, we derived the following approximate statistical conclusion:


(1) over 2000 Albanian word derives from the proto-Indo-European root, according Albanian linguists Bahri Beci;
(2) about 50 words comes from Pre-IE period;
(3) about 40 words comes from Greek, mostly from the Doric dialect, of which certain number preserved the old form which does not exist in the modern Greek language;
(4) about 30 words Illyrian origin, out of 1000 surviving Illyrian words and toponyms;
(5) about 15 words Thracian origin;
(6) about 30 words can be related to the languages ​​Mesops, Veneta and Etruscans;
(7) about 600 words of Latin origin, from which 60 of the old Latin (before IV century), and 82 words can be said to have adopted only the Albanian language and not the other Romance languages;
(8) about 60 words comes from the Old Slavic languages ​​(before the XII century);
(9) that is 540 words on loan from the Slavic languages (Slavonic, Serbian, Bulgarian, Macedonian), how much is included Gustav Meier;
(10) about 840 Modern Greek origin, as far as included Gustav Meier;
(11) there is is 1180 words of Turkish origin, as far as included Gustav Meier;



In a survey conducted during the 60s of the last century, from 1424 words that are commonly used in the Albanian language, 667 are considered to be indigenous, folk Albanian words, and 757 are among the loanwords. Depending on the topic, varies odds between indigenous and borrowed words.


The local lexicon dominates over loanwords in the following thematic areas:



ambient
34: 17
(51)


atmospheric phenomena
30: 14
(44)


folk astronomy
9: 4
(13)


time (duration), the numbers and names of colors
50:28
(78)


flora
66: 47
(113)


livestock terms
63: 45
(108)


parts of the human body and their functions
90: 67
(157)






The adoptions dominate in the following areas:



wildlife
70: 75
(145)


everyday life
48: 50
(98)


clothing, toilets, food,
74: 100
(174)


housing and household
43: 115
(158)


agricultural terms
34: 47
(81)


crop plants
6: 40
(46)


artisanal terms
34: 66
(100)


sea, sailing and fishing
12: 22
(34)


folk belief
4: 20
(24)




There is no native Albanian name for metals.


Some of Balkan speakers of Vlach (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Romance_languages) (Aromanian) language claim that many of the words of "alleged" Albanian origin are in fact of Aromanian origin. I have been presented a similarity between some of the words, which indicates a common root, but are those words loans from Vlach> Albanian or the other way around, I can't tell since I'm no expert in that area.

Rethel
01-04-15, 21:01
That would mean:
Romance - 28%
Slavonic - 10%
Turkish - 23%
Greek - 16%
IE - 8 %
unknown - 14 %


So 1/5 have albabnian origin.

When I was hearing albanian I was amazed how
many slavic-like and romanic-like words I hear.

And do exist albanian by origin names or not?

Finalise
01-04-15, 22:10
I don't know who Gustav Meyer is, but 5,000 words is hardly a sample, and Ike's math is wrong. The Romance % in Albanian is about 40%. Slavic[1] and Turkish[2] words only comprise about 1,000 and 3-5000 words each, respectively, out of a total of 60,000+. Turkish words are exclusively social vocabulary (social positions, cuss words) and miscellaneous household terminology like cooking. Slavic terms are more related to lowland farming. I'm not sure about Greek, but I do know that Ancient Greek words are very scarce, and only modern ones appear. Direct Germanic borrowings are only a small select few due to Gothic raids, but otherwise non-existent. The pre-IE substratum is fairly small compared to Greek. Since we lack a relative of Albanian, it is more difficult to use comparative linguistics and close the gap to PIE. At least 30-50% of the words in Albanian are non-Latin, non-Greek, non-Slavic, PIE-derived.Overall, the Albanian language was spoken north of the Jirecek line, which accounts for the high borrowings from Latin, and low from Greek. The lack of maritime vocabulary coincides with the fact that the Albanian coastline was dominated until 1400 AD by Latin, Venetian and Greek colonists, and Albanians were tribal, mountainous tribes, living on the central and eastern fringes of the country, which coincides with the location of the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi.


[1] https://etd.ohiolink.edu/!etd.send_file?accession=osu1338406907&disposition=inline
[2] http://www.mcser.org/journal/index.php/mjss/article/viewFile/2184/2171

Ike
01-04-15, 23:05
I don't know who Gustav Meyer is,
Damn, dude. You talk about Albanians and don't know who is Gustav Meyer?! :) Austrian University professor, and one of the first Albanologists in the world. He wrote the first etymological dictionary of Albanian language.


but 5,000 words is hardly a sample,
Agree. He was a pioneer from 19th century. I would like to see more detailed recent statistics.



and Ike's math is wrong.
Math part is perfect. I agree that specimen was not representative.



The Romance % in Albanian is about 40%.
Yes, that could be about true.


Slavic and Turkish words only comprise about 2,000 words each out of a total of 60,000.
All research point out more Slavic than you say.


Turkish words are exclusively social vocabulary (social positions, cuss words) and miscellaneous household terminology like cooking.
As said, Turkish words entered vocabulary from 15-18th century, so probably plain social interaction. Around 2000 sounds like a reasonable number for Turkish.


Slavic terms are more related to lowland farming. I'm not sure about Greek, but I do know that Ancient Greek words are very scarce, and only modern ones appear. Direct Germanic borrowings are only a small select few due to Gothic raids, but otherwise non-existent. The pre-IE substratum is fairly small compared to Greek. Since we lack a relative of Albanian, it is more difficult to use comparative linguistics and close the gap to PIE.
All sound logical.


At least 30-50% of the words in Albanian are non-Latin, non-Greek, non-Slavic, PIE-derived.Overall, the Albanian language was spoken north of the Jirecek line, which accounts for the high borrowings from Latin, and low from Greek. The lack of maritime vocabulary coincides with the fact that the Albanian coastline was dominated until 1400 AD by Latin, Venetian and Greek colonists, and Albanians were tribal, mountainous tribes, living on the central and eastern fringes of the country, which coincides with the location of the Illyrian tribe of Albanoi.

Yes, north of Jiricek line, but according to Georgiev, Latin loanwords into Albanian show East Balkan Latin (Proto-Romanian) phonetics, rather than West Balkan (Dalmatian) phonetics. That;s why the proposed homeland of Albanians is Romania and Carpates. Since the complexity of the vocabulaty is great, there is a posibility that Albanians had incorporated some other "indigenous" Balkan lanaguge when the settled here. Vlachs would be the first on my mind, but their origin is obscure just as same.

Finalise
02-04-15, 00:57
I think trying to determine the position of the language through Latin loanwords is a bit far fetched. Albanian also displays some pre 0 AD Latin borrowings, that would otherwise be non-existent in Dacian and Thracian populations. The language displays affinities to both Western and Balkan Latin, and the difference between the two variants is not great to begin with. Daco-Thracian is usually presented as an alternative to Illyrian, not as a main theory. I think for now it's fair that the latter remains the default. Georgiev's Daco-Thracian theory picked up some momentum when linguists thought Illyrian was a centum language because of its affinity with Venetic. Then it turned out Venetic is very closely related to Latin. So far, we do have some Thracian inscriptions and one Dacian inscription. Nothing shows any relation to Albanian, especially Thracian.We also have no records of any significant migrations into Albania. The Byzantines recorded all Slavic, Gothic, and Avar incursions into the Balkans, so again it would be far fetched to consider Daco-Thracian as a main theory. However, since we lack Illyrian recordings, we can't make any definite statements yet. Illyrian might have even referred to different languages. The existence of Liburnian attests to this.

Skerdilaidas
02-04-15, 14:57
Do you have Ike, some statistics about vocabulary?
How many words come from slavic, romanic, hellenic, aso languages?
How many are original or of unknown origin?
Read Vladimir Orel for starters. He is far from being accurate, but he is a serious linguist, and much better read then what you would find in forums such as this.

Ike
02-04-15, 15:17
Read Vladimir Orel for starters. He is far from being accurate, but he is a serious linguist, and much better read then what you would find in forums such as this.

It is just an extension of the work of Gustav Mayer and Eqrem Cabej, that goes on for 500 pages. If you have already read the book, present the data. It's not like we all have the time to read thousands of pages of Albanology every year.

Ike
02-04-15, 17:27
I think trying to determine the position of the language through Latin loanwords is a bit far fetched. Albanian also displays some pre 0 AD Latin borrowings, that would otherwise be non-existent in Dacian and Thracian populations. The language displays affinities to both Western and Balkan Latin, and the difference between the two variants is not great to begin with. Daco-Thracian is usually presented as an alternative to Illyrian, not as a main theory. I think for now it's fair that the latter remains the default. Georgiev's Daco-Thracian theory picked up some momentum when linguists thought Illyrian was a centum language because of its affinity with Venetic. Then it turned out Venetic is very closely related to Latin. So far, we do have some Thracian inscriptions and one Dacian inscription. Nothing shows any relation to Albanian, especially Thracian.We also have no records of any significant migrations into Albania. The Byzantines recorded all Slavic, Gothic, and Avar incursions into the Balkans, so again it would be far fetched to consider Daco-Thracian as a main theory. However, since we lack Illyrian recordings, we can't make any definite statements yet. Illyrian might have even referred to different languages. The existence of Liburnian attests to this.

We don't know if these borrowing went to Albanians to start with. They may have been spoken by the Vlach population in the highlands until the time Albanians came and picked them up from the remnants of "indigenous" population. It is obvious that Albanians language has loanwords from different areas and different time-spans that cannot be covered just by one people that would go unnoticed in the history. Those ethnic groups could have formed a conglomerate language somewhere in the highlands where they hid...

Not only that, but there are there are numerous sources confirming vagabond nature of Albanians, as in:
"Then, sometime between the death of the Despot Manuel Cantacuzenus on 10 April 1380 and May 1381, when the civil war ended, Theodore was named governor of the Morea, arriving there probably in the fall of 1382. The situation facing him there on his arrival may best be described as chaotic. Shifty Greek and Latin barons warred against one another and acted in almost complete independence of any central authority. Pirates of various nationalities and mercenary bands of Navarrese and Turks spread terror and devastation throughout the land. Theodore's political and military attempts to assert his authority over the troubled region are too complicated to detail here. In general, though, his successes were almost evenly balanced by his mistakes and failures. Yet, despite some notable miscalculations, he showed himself to be a skillful diplomat, extended his territory, established his authority over his subjects to a limited degree, and repopulated deserted areas with Albanian nomads. While it is true that he was faced with an extremely difficult situation and was very short on resources, one has the impression that, although intelligent and clever, he really did not measure up to his mission. In 1383-84 he had married Bartolomea, the daughter of Nerio Acciajuoli, lord of Corinth, but they had no son to succeed to the despotate."
(Letters of Manuel II Palaeologus)



Next thing, there is indisputable connection with Proto-Romanian.
"The similarities between the Albanian and Romanian languages are acknowledged by all researchers focusing on this topic. The ethnogenesis of the Albanian language cannot be completely clarified without having a close approach to the same problem in Romanian." PDF download link (250 KB) (http://www.mcser.org/journal/index.php/mjss/article/download/203/188)

Skerdilaidas
25-04-15, 08:06
It is just an extension of the work of Gustav Mayer and Eqrem Cabej, that goes on for 500 pages. If you have already read the book, present the data. It's not like we all have the time to read thousands of pages of Albanology every year.
Since you have no time to read linguist on regards to Albanian language, then you shouldn't give your opinion on it either, especially when you are illiterate in it.

Ike
28-04-15, 03:38
Since you have no time to read linguist on regards to Albanian language, then you shouldn't give your opinion on it either, especially when you are illiterate in it.

Rethel asked for the data a month ago. If you claim to have it, present it.

noUseForAname
03-06-15, 17:22
More facts are coming.....




Originally Posted by Maciamo http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=449554#post449554)
Norwegians have a higher combined percentage of R1a + R1b than Belarussians and Ukrainians. Plenty of Central Asians invaded eastern Europe over the last 5000 years (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25619-5000-years-of-migrations-from-the-Eurasian-steppes-to-Europe), almost completely eliminating R1b in the region. I explained 5 years ago that this was why R1b was so low today in its original homeland.

The huge Neolithic population of the Cucuteni-Trypillian culture didn't just vanish in thin air. They were gradually absorbed by PIE people (probably already since the Globular Amphora culture). Don't forget that Cucuteni-Trypillian towns were the largest in the world at the time. That explains the very significant percentage of both male and female Near Eastern lineages in western Ukraine and southern Belarus today.

Additionally, Ukrainians also have partial Greek ancestry in the south (lots of J2a).

It is especially northern Belarus and eastern Ukraine that are very high in R1a, and that is just a sign of higher recent Slavic ancestry, not a sign of more surviving Yamna ancestry. The Slavic branch descends from the Corded Ware and Abashevo cultures, not from Yamna.



Are you saying that most of Greeks are descends of J2a?....if so any more info related to this?....i would gladly appreciate it....



http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Alan http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=449527#post449527)
I see ~30% WHG (blue) in this chart.

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg

Would this table had an explanation as the following below?

1: Most of Early Neolithic (9,000 years) - were already populated and lived (majority) at the current modern populations (and locations) such as: Sardinian, Tuscan, Greek, Albanian, Bergamo, Spanish, South French, Basque. it looks like, more south is more ancient. Doesn't that explain that all the R1b or R1a expansion came much later to Europe?..then it would look like the R lineage came from central Asia above the baltic and through steppe as Maciamo noted (and not through Asia minor). and J2 migrated even much later towards Europe?

Then would anyone argue which is the major Y Dna in these south regions already within early Neolithic?

2. There are 2 hypothesis for the roots of indoEuropean language (9,000 years): north of Black sea and south west Anatolia....recent study is pretty conclusive about the south west Anatolia. This might correlate with migrations and Cultures spreading from south west Anatolia to east forming Mesopotamia (6,000 years) and west possibly forming Vinca Culture (7,500 years).

I suppose after migration to Mesopotamia, at the same time another big migration went through Caucus above Black Sea and through the Steppe around 6,000 years ago (Maciamo noted 4,000 years ago) (probably majority of R1b and R1a)

On the other side migration from south west Anatolia through south east balkans 7,500 years ago forming Vinca culture, although there is no evidence yet that they spoke indo european. Might this group be E-V13?.... as we know so far it is 10,000 years old and its roots are the far south east balkans.


http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf (http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:1539154:7/component/escidoc:1539165/Bouckaert_2012.pdf)
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/ (https://theoreticalecology.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/mapping-the-origins-and-expansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/)




Originally Posted by Angela http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=449749#post449749)
If you look at the chart on page 25, the division is very clear. The orange is Neolithic Farmer, although I don't know if it's exactly the same as the component in the prior Lazardis paper. Here, the standard is Starcevo and LBKT, and thus Stuttgart shows a little WHG, as does the Spanish early Neolithic. Still, it's Early Neolithic Farmer in Europe and EEF is the closest term, as Alan pointed out above. The blue is, of course, WHG, based on Loschbour. The green is Yamnaya. That component is not based on the R1b1 hunter gatherer who was so similar to the R1a1 hunter gatherer but who was, indeed, found in the Samara Valley. The green Yamnaya component is based on the later and downstream R1b samples from Yamnaya, and thus autosomally are half Eastern Hunter Gatherer and half "Near Eastern". I agree with Alan that this is the "West Asian" component that Dienekes has been chasing all these years. In my opinion, however, it should not be seen as some totally foreign component. I think they could have extracted the majority EEF like component.


(Alan is also right that ENF has no place in the discussion. That is a component found through modeling by Eurogenes. It is not, unlike these components, based on an ancient set of genomes.)

It's interesting that a little sliver of Yamnaya made it into the Gamba samples. You can also see how the blue WHG component made something of a comeback in the MN of Germany. Obviously, that didn't happen in other areas. Then there's the big explosion of it with Corded Ware, and lower levels in Bell Beaker.

There are all sorts of questions that arise as to why individual groups have their own particular set of percentages, as well. The Greeks (I believe the samples were taken in a northern part of the mainland) and the Albanians, for instance, why do they have less Yamnaya, when in addition to what might have come originally, they were invaded by Slavic speaking tribes who would have carried some with them? Also, why do they have more WHG than their immediate neighbors? The PCA is also interesting:

The PCA is also interesting:
Attachment 7074 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7074)
You can see how the later Yamnaya samples cluster right between the EHGs and the Near Easterners.
Does anyone know, by the way, where the authors talk about the percentage of population replacement in the south?


noUseForAname (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/49032-noUseForAname)

Great point Angela...
Greeks and Albanians have less later Yamna maybe cause (if we can suppose this way) as the predominant % of their dna is E-V13 (over 40%), if we add another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% EEF and WHG.
Yamna is only 15% (graph above) and it could be mainly through R1b and R1a, however it tops 25% (Greek and Albanian), we miss the 10%, maybe the 10% (R1b or R1a) was already at those regions before Yamna?
Then how about J2 which has 18%?...i don't have any comments here for now...

Albanians have mostly E-V13 (39%) Modern Greeks (19%), then R1b (18.6%) Modern Greeks (11.7%) migrated from steppe, then J2 (18.6%) Modern Greeks (17%) from middle east and in the end slavic tribes R1a (5%) Modern Greeks (16%)
now historically speaking modern greeks were slavinized (R1a) much more than the Albanians


http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/quote_icon.png Originally Posted by Sile http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=457633#post457633)
in summary , the paper states that there was one set of haplogroups in central Europe prior to 4500BC and then another different set came in....the older set comprises of I2 , G2 and T1, C and others from what I recall .............corded ware was the others .............R1 came in the younger set of migrations



Culture
Country
YBP
Hg
Simple hg
N


Mesolithic_HG
Luxembourg
8'000
I2a1b-L178
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'700
I2a-L460
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1-P37.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1a1a-L672
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b-M423
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2a1b2a1-L147.2
I2
1


Hunter_Gatherer
Sweden
7'700
I2c2-PF3827
I2
5


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'600
H2-L281
H2
1










Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
F*-P135
F*
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'300
I2a1b1-L161.1
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'200
T1a-PF5604
T
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3147
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a-PF3185
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'100
G2a2a1-PF3170
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
7'100
C1a2-V20/V184
C1
2


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'100
R1b1-M415
R1b1
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
7'000
G2a2a1-PF3155
G2a
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
E1b1b1a1b1a-V13
E1b1b
1


Early_Neolithic
Spain
7'000
G2a-P15
G2a
5


Early_Neolithic
Spain
6'900
C1a2-V20
C1
1


Early_Neolithic
Hungary
6'400
I2a-L460
I2
1


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'300
F-M89
F*
2


Early_Neolithic
Germany
6'200
G2a2b-S126
G2a
1





noUseForAname (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/49032-noUseForAname)

So if Maciamo haplogroup timeline is correct, and according to early neolithic skeletons found:

1: Can we say that the early Neolithic people indigenous natives of Europe (at least as per ybp noted) are E-V13 (10,000 ybp) G2a2(9,000) and I2a1 (8.000 ybp) ?
Current populations with highest I2a are:

Bosnian Croats 71%
Bosnians 56%
Sardinians 42.3%
Norwegians 40.2%
Swedes 40%
Danes 38.7%
Slovenians 38.7%
Croats 37%
Serbians 33%
Bosnians Serbs 31%
Icelanders 34%
Dutch 32.9%
Sami 31%
Peak or roots of I2a1 seems to be current Croatia, Bosnia, Montenegro and south west Serbia
However no ancient I2a1 is found yet at these areas except the 5 of them in Sweeden.

Current Populations with highest G2a2 are:
Osetians 60%
Georgians 32%
Although G2a2 already in Europe at the early Neolithic its roots looks like its current Georgia and Osetia (caucasus mountains)
And it has much lower numbers with that of E-V13 and !2a1

Current populations with highest E-V13 are:
Albanians in Kosovo 47.3%
Albanians in Macedonia 39%
Albanians in Kosovo, Macedonia and Albania 39%
Greeks in Greece 31%
Italians in Sicily 27.3%
Peak or roots of E-V13 seems to be current borders of Kosovo, west Macedonia, Albania, Greece (especially Peloponnese and south Greece with higher %)
However no ancient E-V13 is found yet at these areas except the one in Spain


2: Then came the migrations at early 5,000 ybp with R1 across black sea through Yamna

3: Then looks like J2 migrated the latest from middle east to Europe


for more quality info please go below..

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-Europe/page22 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe/page22)


Originally Posted by LeBrok http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=433489#post433489)
In order to make such maps we need a lot of data from all over the Europe. By the nature of this data collection it will be a self reporting project. It is not the best way, but it might be the only way to gather data for these maps. Please post your EEF, WHG, EEF numbers with place of birth, or place of birth of your parents if they came from different region than you were born in.

Little explanation of these admixtures:

These admixtures can roughly tell you about your origin.
WHG - West Hunter Gatherers, were the Mesolithic Europeans spread pretty much all over the Europe around 10 to 5 thousand BCE.
EEF - Early European Farmers, were the Neolithic inhabitants of Europe, the first farmers who came 10 thousand years ago from Near East and first settled in Balkans and the rest of South Europe. In next 5 thousand years they've spread to every corner of Europe.
ANE - Ancient North Eurasians, the hunter-gatherers and nomads from far East Europe and Central Asia. Latest research papers point to Indo-Europeans bringing ANE to every place in Europe.

Example:
Poland, Siedlce (country, city or region)
EEF - 45
WHG - 39
ANE - 16

One can say that I'm 39% very ancient European, 45% farmer from Near East, and 16% Indo-European. Or that I'm 55% Hunter-Gatherer and 45% Farmer.

More information:
http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/201...est-three.html (http://eurogenes.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/ancient-human-genomes-suggest-three.html)

Some data from the paper by Lazaridis:
EEF WHG ANE
0.781 0.092 0.127 -- Albanian
0.931 0 0.069 -- Ashkenazi_Jew
0.593 0.293 0.114 -- Basque
0.418 0.431 0.151 -- Belorussian
0.715 0.177 0.108 -- Bergamo
0.712 0.147 0.141 -- Bulgarian
0.561 0.293 0.145 -- Croatian
0.495 0.338 0.167 -- Czech
0.495 0.364 0.141 -- English
0.322 0.495 0.183 -- Estonian
0.554 0.311 0.135 -- French
0.675 0.195 0.13 -- French_South
0.792 0.058 0.151 -- Greek
0.558 0.264 0.179 -- Hungarian
0.394 0.456 0.15 -- Icelandic
0.364 0.464 0.172 -- Lithuanian
0.932 0 0.068 -- Maltese
0.411 0.428 0.161 -- Norwegian
0.457 0.385 0.158 -- Orcadian
0.713 0.125 0.163 -- Pais_Vasco
0.817 0.175 0.008 -- Sardinian
0.39 0.428 0.182 -- Scottish
0.903 0 0.097 -- Sicilian
0.809 0.068 0.123 -- Spanish
0.746 0.136 0.118 -- Tuscan
0.462 0.387 0.151 -- Ukrainian
Here is the explanation how you can calculate your admixtures:
http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/1...europeans.html (http://bga101.blogspot.com.au/2013/12/eef-whg-ane-test-for-europeans.html)



noUseForAname
On EEF the paper states: Early European Farmer (EEF): apparently this is a hybrid component, the result of mixture between "Basal Eurasians" and a WHG-like population possibly from the Balkans. (possibly from Balkans) how do you know it came from near east (does it say on a paper?).

This might correlates with Maciamo arguing about E-V13 (10,000 ybp), as its peak or roots is south east balkans. And before that its a subclade of M-78 (south east Africa). And M-78 might have crossed (before 10,000 ybp) straight to south east balkans (or even Iberia) and not through Levant and Anatolia.
It also correlates with I2a1...So only possible early Neolithic in Europe I2a1 and E-V13?....Then I2a1 and E-V13 has nothing to do with near east farmers nor even migrating from the near east

Haplogroup E-V13 is the only lineage that reaches the highest frequencies out of Africa. In fact, it represents about 85% of the European E-M78 chromosomes with a clinal pattern of frequency distribution from the southern Balkan peninsula (19.6%) to western Europe (2.5%). The same haplogroup is also present at lower frequencies in Anatolia (3.8%), the Near East (2.0%), and the Caucasus (1.8%). In Africa, haplogroup E-V13 is rare, being observed only in northern Africa at a low frequency (0.9%).
—Cruciani et al. (2007 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68#CITEREFCrucianiLa_FrattaTrombettaSantolamazza2 007))

On the other side looks like its pretty complicated, if we can say the more Yanmaya R* (4,500) from the graph the less Mesolithic or Neolthic, and more the WHG and EEF then more Mesolithic and early Neolithic. Credit goes to Sardinains and Bulgarians with pretty high I2a1 and Albanians and Greeks with E-V13
How come then Spain, tuscany, basques, Bergamo has one of the highest EEF and its very very high in R1b?....


Originally Posted by LeBrok http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=457978#post457978)
To be exact EEF is European hybrid, and it was found in Stuttgart. However it has over 80% component which came with first farmers. It is called Early Neolithic Farmer admixture. From archaeology we know that first farmers happened in Near East, and then farming spread to Europe through Balkans. We are yet to physically find and sequence this supposed ENF genome. Though it is pretty sure thing that we will find it there.

If E-V13 came with farmers to Balkans, it most likely started in Near East and walked from there to Europe with other farmers of G2a type, as minority clade. If it came to Europe in Mesolithic, then it came as hunter-gatherer. It could have originated in Saharan Africa, then came to Iberia, bringing North African admixture, which was found in some WHGs. When farmers came and acquired V13 from hunter gatherers it could spread around in bigger numbers throughout Europe with farmers.

Looking at E-V13 map, it looks wide spread in every part of Europe, therefore very ancient. It started expansion in Mid Neolithic to my guess, and in direction from South to North.


noUseForAname
Recent discoveries in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe), such as Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) and mainland Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) has shown that farming started early in south east Europe. In Franchthi Cave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchthi_Cave)in Greece there are no certain gathering of plant foods attested before c. 11,000 bc, although large numbers of seeds of the Boraginaceae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boraginaceae) family may come from plants gathered to furnish soft bedding or for the dye which their roots may have supplied. First appearing at c. 11,000bc are lentils, vetch, pistachios, and almonds. Then c. 10,500bcappear a few very rare seeds of wild oats and wild barley. Neither wild oats nor wild barley become at all common until c. 7000bc[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture#cite_note-19)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture#cite_note-20) in Cyprus. The oldest agricultural settlement ever found on a Mediterranean island has been discovered in Klimonas. between 9100 and 8600 bc

Anthropological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology) and archaeological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology) evidence from sites across Southwest Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Asia) and North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa)indicate use of wild grain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cereal) (e.g., from the c. 20,000bc site ofOhalo II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohalo_II) in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel), many Natufian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian) sites in theLevant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) and from sites along the Nile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile) in the 10th millennium bc).
It was not until after 9500 bc that the eight so-called founder crops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_founder_crops) of agriculture appear: first emmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmer_wheat) andeinkorn wheat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einkorn_wheat), then hulled barley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barley), peas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea),lentils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lentil), bitter vetch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicia_ervilia), chick peas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_pea) and flax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flax). These eight crops occur more or less simultaneously on Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_B)) sites in the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant)
By 7000 bc, sowing and harvesting reached Mesopotamia.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture

What i understand is not the near East (considering Syria, Anatolia, Mesopotamia) but the far north east Africa (M-78 peak) and the very south west Levant like Ohalo.
So that might mean that by 10,000 BC there was already farming in the far south east Balkans that came from north east Africa and the far south west Levant.
It looks like the peak was south east Africa which at the same time spread in one direction at Crete and then Peloponnese and the other spread through Levant Syria and reached Mesopotamia by 7,000 BC.

It also correlates with M-78 and E-V13 link through north east Africa and not the other way around through north Levant and Anatolia.

Maybe not as a minority as you mention because who else was there before G2a I2a1 and E-V13 and with higher numbers?, i Would suppose (atearly Neolithic through mid Neolithic) the Majority in Europe was:
1: I2a1 & I1
2: E-V13
3: G2a1 (dont know why or how by today is still low)
4: R1b (became a majority after 4,000 ybp)
5: R1a (pushed more south to current Europe from Today Russia after around 4,500 ybp)
J2 not much info, (probably came in more numbers after the bronze age


http://cdn.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E-V13.gif



Here is the E-V13 percentage for specific populations and specific locations.

Very interesting percentage by a specific location




Population
--------------------------


Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians)(Kosovar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosovar_Albanian))
Language
------------

IE (Albanian)
N
------


114
R1b (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA))
-------


21.10
R1a (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1a_(Y-DNA))
-------


4.42
I
-----------

I1=5.31
I2a2=2.65
E-V13
---------


47.37
J
---------


J2=16.7
G
-----


0
N
---


0
T
---


0
Others
----------------


P[xQ,R1]=1.77
Reference
----------------------


Pericic2005[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Pericic2005-3)


Greeks (Peloponnese (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peloponnese))
IE (Greek)
36



47





Semino2004[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)


Greeks (South)
IE (Greek)
46
19.6
2.2
23.9
43.5

6.5

2.2

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Cantabrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria)(Pasiegos)
IE (Italic)
56



42.9





Cruciani2004[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Cruciani2004-20)


Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians)(Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Macedonia))
IE (Albanian)
64
18.8
1.6
I1=4.5
I2a=12.5
39.1
J1=6.3
J2=15.6
1.6
0.0
0.0

Battaglia2008[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Battaglia2008-5)


Greeks (North)
IE (Greek)
96
14.6
18.8
12.5
35.4

5.2

2.1
L=1
Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Italians (East Sicily)
IE (Italic)
87
20.0
2.3
5.0
29.0

5.0

5.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Italians (Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily))
IE (Italic)



8.8
27.3
23.8




Semino2004[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)


Cypriots (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus)
IE (Greek)
45
9.0
2.0

27.0





Rosser2000[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Rosser2000-13)


Italians (South)
IE (Italic)
68
25.0
3.0
6.0
26.0

15.0

3.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Albanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanians)
IE (Albanian)
55
18.2
9.1
I1=3.6
I2a=14.5
I2b=3.6
27.5
J1=3.6
J2=20.0
1.8
0.0
0.0

Battaglia2008[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Battaglia2008-5)


Greeks
IE (Greek)
84/92



21.0
6.5




Semino2004[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)


Greeks (Macedonia)
IE (Greek)
57
14.0
12.3
I1=8.8
I2a=21.0
22.9
J1=1.8
J2=14.1
1.8

1.8

Battaglia 2008[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Battaglia2008-5)


Ashkenazi Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashkenazi_Jews)
IE (Germanic, West)
79

12.7

22.8
43.0




Nebel2001[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Nebel2001-9)


Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs) (Bosnia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina))
IE (Slavic, South)
81
6.2
13.6
40.7
22.2
9.9
1.2
6.2
0.0

Battaglia2008[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Battaglia2008-5)


Aromuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians)(Kruševo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kru%C5%A1evo), Macedonia)
IE (Italic)
43
27.9
11.6
20.9
20.9
11.6
7.0
0.0
0.0

Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


Bulgarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bulgarians)
IE (Slavic, South)
127
11.0
17.3
27.5
19.7
18.1
1.6

0.8

Karachanak2009[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Karachanak2009-17)


Greeks (Thrace (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thrace))
IE (Greek)
41
12.2
22.0
19.5
19.5
19.5
4.9



Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


Sephardic Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardic_Jews)
Afro-Asiatic (Semitic)
78
29.5
3.9
11.5
19.2
28.2




Nebel2001[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Nebel2001-9)


Italians (West Sicily)
IE (Italic)
125
27.0
2.4
11.0
19.0

13.0

3.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Minorca islanders (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minorca)
IE (Italic)
37
73.0
2.7
2.7
18.9

0.0

0.0

Zalloua2008[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Zalloua2008-31)


Aromuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians) (Štip (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0tip_Municipality), Macedonia)
IE (Italic)
65
23.1
21.5
16.9
18.5
20.0
0.0
0.0
0.0

Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


ethnic Macedonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonians_(ethnic_group))
IE (Slavic, South)
211
11.4
14.2
31.3
18.0
16.0
3.8
0.5
1.9
L=0.5
Noveski2010[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Noveski2010-34)


Aromuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians)(Dukasi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fier_County), Albania)
IE (Italic)
39
2.6
2.6
17.9
17.9
48.7
10.3
0.0
0.0

Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs)
IE (Slavic, South)
179
4.5
14.5
48
17.3
5.6
2.2
3.3

L=0.6
Mirabal,V.2010[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Mirabal2010-39)


Portuguese (South)
IE (Italic)
57
56.0
2.0

17.0





Rosser2000[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Rosser2000-13)


Romanians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanians)(Ploieşti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ploie%C5%9Fti))
IE (Italic)
36
8.3
5.6
38.9
16.7
19.4
8.3
0.0
0.0

Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


Gagauz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gagauz_people)(Kongaz)
Altaic (Turkic)
48
10.4
12.5
31.3
16.7
8.3
10.4
4.2
6.3

Varzari2006[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Varzari2006-27)


Italians (Calabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calabria))
IE (Italic)

32.4[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2000-2)

5.4[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Rootsi2004-6)
16.3[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Pericic2005-3)
24.6[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)







Aromuns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromanians)(Andon Poci (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr_District), Albania)
IE (Italic)
19
36.8
0.0
42.1
15.8
5.3
0.0
0.0
0.0

Bosch2006[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Bosch2006-4)


Italians (Apulia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apulia))
IE (Italic)



2.6[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Rootsi2004-6)
13.9[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)
31.4[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Semino2004-8)







Italians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italians)
IE (Italic)


2.7[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Helgason2000-16)

13.0[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations#cite_note-Rosser2000-13)









http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-DNA_haplogroups_in_European_populations

noUseForAname
03-06-15, 17:37
..............

noUseForAname
03-06-15, 17:46
As for the Language and recent scientific papers


The french scholar (see minute 31) states Eastern Branch of PEI closely related with Armenian-Phrygian-Greek, while Albanian is of a Western branch Balkanic and unrelated to the eastern branch, therefore it is not a brach of an Indic/Iranian language.

<strong><strong>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDgMTVnUnIU

http://news.sciencemag.org/sites/default/files/sn-languages672H.jpghttp://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6970&d=1419366716



So we have Ancient Greek and Albanian language Split at 5,000 years ago, Ancient Greek 3,500 - Modern Albanian 1,000 - Modern Greek 500 years old.
This is from the written texts found, it might be much older.

It looks like the roots of modern Albanian language is Epirus - Roots of Ancient Greek Thessaly and Lydia.


http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf (http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:1539154:7/component/escidoc:1539165/Bouckaert_2012.pdf)
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/ (https://theoreticalecology.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/mapping-the-origins-and-expansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/)



http://www.mpi.nl/news/TreeoflanguagefamiliesMichaelDunnScience.jpg
http://www.theleadsouthaustralia.com.au/custom/files/docs/industries_research_150303_Indo%20European%20Ancie nt%20DNA_thumbnail-2.jpg

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...=fb-share&_r=0 (http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2012/08/24/science/0824-origins.html?smid=fb-share&_r=0)
http://www.linguatics.com/indoeuropean_languages.htmhttp:/
pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/ite...kaert_2012.pdf (http://pubman.mpdl.mpg.de/pubman/item/escidoc:1539154:7/component/escidoc:1539165/Bouckaert_2012.pdf)
https://theoreticalecology.wordpress...nguage-family/ (https://theoreticalecology.wordpress.com/2012/08/24/mapping-the-origins-and-expansion-of-the-indo-european-language-family/)


Some User stated
New Zealand scientists used new computational-modeling method. Their result is that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranic language.


noUseForAname
I have found your source (although i asked 3 times to send the source and not just the picture)
You have misrepresented this source (see below) from (Russell D. Gray 2003 year) for the following reasons. I will interpret this study (although more recent studies of 2012 and 2015 show more details)

1: Albanian language is not a subgroup of indic/Iranian (see table below). If it would have been a subgroup then it would fall inside Indic/Iranic
2: Indic/Iranic split 4,600 years ago (own separate branch), Albanian split 6,000 years ago (own separate branch). Colours show separate branches (read the whole source in details please)
3: On the other side Greek and Armenian split 6,800 years ago (therefore own Branch), although it mentions Greek only 800 years old (probably this is only for the modern Greek and not ancient Greek). And Albanian 600 years old (probably this is only for a modern Albanian)
4: The main language groupings are colourcoded. Branch lengths are proportional to the inferred maximum-likelihood estimates ofevolutionary change per cognate....
5: For example *Italic also includes the French/Iberian subgroup, So Italic main branch and subgroups are French/Iberian.
6: So the main groups branches (from older to recent) are: Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, Albanian, Iranian (Indo-Iranian), Indic (indo-Iranian), Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, Italic.....

Now my question to you is: Why the study then shows Albanian as its own Main branch?



http://d1vn86fw4xmcz1.cloudfront.net/content/royptb/366/1567/1090/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1




Some User stated
My assumption is that Albanian originated somewhere in between (today's) Caucasus, northern Iran and eastern Turkey. I suppose that carriers of R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype), J2 and probably R1a created this language. Albanian is Indo-European, Satem.


noUseForAname
1:Majority of current Albanians descend from E-V13 (over 40%) how can they originate from Caucus area? (we are not talking about the language here)
2:It is a possibility that Yamna R1b majority 4,000 years ago spread PEI to those regions, as Albanians currently have 18.6% R1b and R1a only 5%
3:It is also a possibility that J2 through Yamna 4,000 ago spread PEI, however this is not supported with the recent (major scale dna study) because Yamna were mostly R1b.
4: Maciamo notes that current Ukrainians have J2a from Greek ancestry, therefore it came to Greek regions much later then E-V13 and R1b because J2a never moved across Yamna (only Yamns brought PEI). J2a must have crossed through current Turkey but definitely didnt brought PEI with them. If J2 moved there at earlier say around 3,000 years ago it should have already found E-V113 and R1b, that is why E-V13 and R1b at Albanians have over 60% together. Currently J2 is 18%.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-Europe/page22 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe/page22)

So once again how can Albanians Originate from Caucus when altogether E-V13 R1b and I2 = 77.5%




https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Us...ayAtkinson.pdf (https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/tuitekj/MonDepotPublic/cours/IE/GrayAtkinson.pdf)

noUseForAname
05-06-15, 21:46
It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:


According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient indigenous current populations of Europe are:
(Considering Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic ONLY, because if we go more back they should have came from somewhere else like everyone descend from Africa)


1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
7: Tuscan
8: Bulgarian
9: French
10: Croatian
11: Arcadian
12: English
13: Ukrainian
14: Hungarian
15: Belarusian
16: Czech
17: Scottish
18: Icelandic
19: Estonian
20: Lithuanian
21: Norwegian

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg


So obviously the more EEF and WHG the more Ancient European, the more ANE Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlate with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.

And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e.



Here are more details....

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...13433.full.pdf (http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)

Sile
05-06-15, 22:27
It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:


According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient indigenous current populations of Europe are:
(Considering Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic ONLY, because if we go more back they should have came from somewhere else like everyone descend from Africa)


1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
7: Tuscan
8: Bulgarian
9: French
10: Croatian
11: Arcadian
12: English
13: Ukrainian
14: Hungarian
15: Belarusian
16: Czech
17: Scottish
18: Icelandic
19: Estonian
20: Lithuanian
21: Norwegian

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg


So obviously the more EEF and WHG the more Ancient European, the more ANE Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlate with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.

And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e.



Here are more details....

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...13433.full.pdf (http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)

You are confused

in the link you provided has on pages 23, 24 and 25 , the chart and ydna markers. Of the 69 ancients tested, zero are from the E haplogroup

so in the chart on your post, the ancient bracket comprises of these 69 ancient findings ................again none are E

LBK_EN is only G2 and T1 as an example

Yetos
06-06-15, 00:18
It is here the most recent and comprehensive scientific research:


According to the source we can conclude that the most Ancient indigenous current populations of Europe are:
(Considering Early Neolithic to mid Neolithic ONLY, because if we go more back they should have came from somewhere else like everyone descend from Africa)


1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
7: Tuscan
8: Bulgarian
9: French
10: Croatian
11: Arcadian
12: English
13: Ukrainian
14: Hungarian
15: Belarusian
16: Czech
17: Scottish
18: Icelandic
19: Estonian
20: Lithuanian
21: Norwegian

http://i1133.photobucket.com/albums/m582/jeanlohizun/Haaketal2015-Figure-3_zpsf94c99b9.jpg


So obviously the more EEF and WHG the more Ancient European, the more ANE Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlate with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.

And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e.



Here are more details....

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...13433.full.pdf (http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)

THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU

your source

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/e...13433.full.pdf


(http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)page 40

table S4.2

(http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)where do you see E-V13 (http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf) and you extract

(http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)<<""So obviously the more EEF and WHG the more Ancient European, the more ANE Yamna the later in Europe.

This might also correlate with my suppositions (from the start of this thread) that before ancient Greek inhabitants they were native inhabitants of the so called Pelazgian.

And it might mean that the only possible major group of Pelazgians are E-V13 (which i support) or !2e. >> (http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)

(http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)PLZ CAN SOMEONE SHOW WHERE IS THIS? OR HOW IT CAN BE EXTRACTED?

I claim Ignorant, but am I blind also? (http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)

noUseForAname THANK YOU AGAIN
(http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf)

noUseForAname
06-06-15, 04:55
You are confused

in the link you provided has on pages 23, 24 and 25 , the chart and ydna markers. Of the 69 ancients tested, zero are from the E haplogroup

so in the chart on your post, the ancient bracket comprises of these 69 ancient findings ................again none are E

LBK_EN is only G2 and T1 as an example


There is 1 Early Neolithic of Spain E-V13....have a closer look (pg 49)

First author Year N Country Period HaplogroupEUROPESeguin-Orlando25 2014 1 Russia Upper Paleolithic H/G C1- F3393Haak3,+ 2008 1 Germany Late Neolithic R1a1-SRY10831.2Haak10 2010 1 Germany Early Neolithic G2a2b-S1262 Germany Early Neolithic F-M89Lacan12,* 2011 5 Spain Early Neolithic G2a-P151 Spain Early Neolithic E1b1b1a1b1a-V13

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf


So from 69 samples there are only around 30 from Early Neolithic (including E-V13) to Mid Neolithic (all the Yamnays and R1a are after mid Neolithic Bronze Age In Europe excluding Russia)

And those around 30 samples from Early Neolithic to Mid Neolithic (10,000 to 5,000 ybp) are mostly outside Europe (Current Russia)
Therefore it makes sense from those small samples (Early Neolithic in Europe) to find the most current native indigenous populations of Europe.

in other words why would the scientist then came upon conclusion that Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd (are most indigenous in Europe)?

It makes sense because as per Albanians they have E-V13 (over 40%) and another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% (Which might mean EEF) which is pretty high percentage


I mean we can interpret the study but who are Me and YOU to know better than the scientists (this is a major study, 45 scientist in one study, one of the biggest one), therefore they havent placed by chance Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd.

Sile
06-06-15, 06:21
There is 1 Early Neolithic of Spain E-V13....have a closer look (pg 49)

First author Year N Country Period HaplogroupEUROPESeguin-Orlando25 2014 1 Russia Upper Paleolithic H/G C1- F3393Haak3,+ 2008 1 Germany Late Neolithic R1a1-SRY10831.2Haak10 2010 1 Germany Early Neolithic G2a2b-S1262 Germany Early Neolithic F-M89Lacan12,* 2011 5 Spain Early Neolithic G2a-P151 Spain Early Neolithic E1b1b1a1b1a-V13

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf


So from 69 samples there are only around 30 from Early Neolithic (including E-V13) to Mid Neolithic (all the Yamnays and R1a are after mid Neolithic Bronze Age In Europe excluding Russia)

And those around 30 samples from Early Neolithic to Mid Neolithic (10,000 to 5,000 ybp) are mostly outside Europe (Current Russia)
Therefore it makes sense from those small samples (Early Neolithic in Europe) to find the most current native indigenous populations of Europe.

in other words why would the scientist then came upon conclusion that Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd (are most indigenous in Europe)?

It makes sense because as per Albanians they have E-V13 (over 40%) and another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% (Which might mean EEF) which is pretty high percentage


I mean we can interpret the study but who are Me and YOU to know better than the scientists (this is a major study, 45 scientist in one study, one of the biggest one), therefore they are not stupid that they put Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd.





the 69 ancient samples from page 25 does not contain any E haplogroup. the chart is only for these 69 samples.

Your E sample on page 49 is from a previous study by Lacan in 2011

just use page 23 with page 25 and you will be ok

Yetos
06-06-15, 06:53
There is 1 Early Neolithic of Spain E-V13....have a closer look (pg 49)

First author Year N Country Period HaplogroupEUROPESeguin-Orlando25 2014 1 Russia Upper Paleolithic H/G C1- F3393Haak3,+ 2008 1 Germany Late Neolithic R1a1-SRY10831.2Haak10 2010 1 Germany Early Neolithic G2a2b-S1262 Germany Early Neolithic F-M89Lacan12,* 2011 5 Spain Early Neolithic G2a-P151 Spain Early Neolithic E1b1b1a1b1a-V13

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf


So from 69 samples there are only around 30 from Early Neolithic (including E-V13) to Mid Neolithic (all the Yamnays and R1a are after mid Neolithic Bronze Age In Europe excluding Russia)

And those around 30 samples from Early Neolithic to Mid Neolithic (10,000 to 5,000 ybp) are mostly outside Europe (Current Russia)
Therefore it makes sense from those small samples (Early Neolithic in Europe) to find the most current native indigenous populations of Europe.

in other words why would the scientist then came upon conclusion that Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd (are most indigenous in Europe)?

It makes sense because as per Albanians they have E-V13 (over 40%) and another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% (Which might mean EEF) which is pretty high percentage


I mean we can interpret the study but who are Me and YOU to know better than the scientists (this is a major study, 45 scientist in one study, one of the biggest one), therefore they are not stupid that they put Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd.





Because of

G2a2a
G2a2a1
T1a

and not of E-v13


THERE IS NO Hg E in page 40 table 4,2

LBK_EN are G2a2a and T1a not E


table 4.2 is the source for Figure 3

Garrick
06-06-15, 07:28
There is 1 Early Neolithic of Spain E-V13....have a closer look (pg 49)

First author Year N Country Period HaplogroupEUROPESeguin-Orlando25 2014 1 Russia Upper Paleolithic H/G C1- F3393Haak3,+ 2008 1 Germany Late Neolithic R1a1-SRY10831.2Haak10 2010 1 Germany Early Neolithic G2a2b-S1262 Germany Early Neolithic F-M89Lacan12,* 2011 5 Spain Early Neolithic G2a-P151 Spain Early Neolithic E1b1b1a1b1a-V13

http://biorxiv.org/content/biorxiv/early/2015/02/10/013433.full.pdf


So from 69 samples there are only around 30 from Early Neolithic (including E-V13) to Mid Neolithic (all the Yamnays and R1a are after mid Neolithic Bronze Age In Europe excluding Russia)

And those around 30 samples from Early Neolithic to Mid Neolithic (10,000 to 5,000 ybp) are mostly outside Europe (Current Russia)
Therefore it makes sense from those small samples (Early Neolithic in Europe) to find the most current native indigenous populations of Europe.

in other words why would the scientist then came upon conclusion that Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd (are most indigenous in Europe)?

It makes sense because as per Albanians they have E-V13 (over 40%) and another Ie2 by 15% then we have over 65% (Which might mean EEF) which is pretty high percentage


I mean we can interpret the study but who are Me and YOU to know better than the scientists (this is a major study, 45 scientist in one study, one of the biggest one), therefore they are not stupid that they put Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd.





Why do you give same messages in the different themes?

Do you think more time repeatedly something, though wrongly, has effects?

No.

And probably in this case you can see same answers.



Very confused, as said previous interlocutors.

You mixed ANE, WHG and EEF with uni-parental markers E-V13, R1a, I2a what is nonsense.

Albanian 2nd is not mean Albanian in the Balkan origin is 2nd, it is big difference, geographical area of origin could be Anatolia, the Caucasus, Moldavia etc.

In the base, you can not come to terms with the fact that no found E samples, only one, but in Spain!

But G2 = 41 & I2 = 18, you probably sow these data.

http://s2.postimg.org/zebg23dw9/Y_DNA_8_do_5_kya.png

Garrick
06-06-15, 07:44
Because of

G2a2a
G2a2a1
T1a

and not of E-v13


THERE IS NO Hg E in page 40 table 4,2

LBK_EN are G2a2a and T1a not E


table 4.2 is the source for Figure 3

Short but very clever, reputation.

Unfortunately, he is confused and mixed the different things.

Maleth
06-06-15, 09:44
Isnt this thread on who are the Albanians and their DNA?. We know they have high percentages of I's and R1b's besides E-V13. We have no studies from Neolithic sites in the Balkans and the 1 E-V13 found in a Neolithic site in Spain proves that it has been around in Europe since the Neolithic, so Im doing my best to figure out what is trying to be proved in regards to the Albanians and their DNA. We know one thing for sure, Albanians are not close to current Turkish populations. I remember first time i joined the forums I used to see all over the place that Albanians are descendants of Turks. DNA busted that is a myth.

Do we have DNA samples on the huge amount of Bones found in regions that probably were more populated due to the climatic conditions in the neolithic period? The answer is NO. The probability is that Neolithic sites were extremely sparsely populated anyway and life was more populous to the south (because of climatic conditions we all know of).

Garrick
06-06-15, 14:59
Isnt this thread on who are the Albanians and their DNA?. We know they have high percentages of I's and R1b's besides E-V13. We have no studies from Neolithic sites in the Balkans and the 1 E-V13 found in a Neolithic site in Spain proves that it has been around in Europe since the Neolithic, so Im doing my best to figure out what is trying to be proved in regards to the Albanians and their DNA. We know one thing for sure, Albanians are not close to current Turkish populations. I remember first time i joined the forums I used to see all over the place that Albanians are descendants of Turks. DNA busted that is a myth.

Do we have DNA samples on the huge amount of Bones found in regions that probably were more populated due to the climatic conditions in the neolithic period? The answer is NO. The probability is that Neolithic sites were extremely sparsely populated anyway and life was more populous to the south (because of climatic conditions we all know of).

Of course, Albanians are not close to current Turkish population.

But you can see, today's Turks mostly have no Y-DNK of original Turks, but they speak Turkish not any Anatolian language.

E-V13 is haplogroup which widespread all over the Europe.

Carriers of E-V13 are not creators of Albanian language, as carriers of majority haplogroups in today's Turkey are not creators of Turkish language.

You know, Albanian is Indo European language.

(E-V13 carriers in Europe, Anatolia and Middle East surely once had their own languages, and these languages probably were Afro Asiatics, but these languages are extinct).

Linguists for several centuries give effort where to classify Albanian because it does not much any existing group of Indo European language.

Generally considered Albanian to be the closest to Armenian.

Armenian is on of many language of Caucasus and Asia Minor, and of course, Armenian is Indo European.

Armenian is probably created of carriers of R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype), and it is interesting this haplogroup is represented among Albanians.

Probably original Albanian originated somewhere in Caucasus, or near (East Turkey, Northern Iran, somewhere near to Caspian Sea).

Two New Zealand scientists, with new computational methods found that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranian languages!

Of course Albanian has long disappeared with Caucasus and neighboring regions (and a lot of languages in Caucasus disappeared), difference is about 6000 years.

If they are right Iranian languages in the Caucasus and near are perhaps good for comparing bearing in mind time distance of 6000 years.

It means, between Iranian languages (Caucasus, East Turkey, Northern Iran and Region about Caspian sea) and Armenian language, which are Indo European languages, we can search roots of Albanian (and close relative languages to Albanian, knowing these languages are no longer in use).

Probably carriers of haplogroup R1b ht35 and maybe carriers of R1a, etc. are creators of forerunner of Albanian somewhere in Caucasus and near.

It is true that in modern Albanian we have Afro Asiatic words but from this perspective it is hard to tell if it is the effect from E-V13 carriers or these are some much later influences.

Maleth
06-06-15, 20:46
(E-V13 carriers in Europe, Anatolia and Middle East surely once had their own languages, and these languages probably were Afro Asiatics, but these languages are extinct).

It all depends where E-V13 was mutated (born) and the language acquired in that region when that happened.. It probably happened with all other haplogroups (except for the R's maybe). The various subclades would mutate in regions different to were the original breakaway from the downstream group.


It is true that in modern Albanian we have Afro Asiatic words but from this perspective it is hard to tell if it is the effect from E-V13 carriers or these are some much later influences.

Ed. Please tell me how E-V13 in Greece has influenced Greek in regards to Afro Asiatic languages and all the other languages it has high percentages in? Or is it just a matter of Albania?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Semitic_languages

Maleth
06-06-15, 21:18
Garrick it seems you have been fixated on this subject for quite a long while. It seems at the time you were not aware of the migration differences between the Berber E-M81 and the Balkan E-V13 :grin:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26169-Berbers-and-Albanians-E-haplogroup-and-linguistic-similarity

Sile
06-06-15, 21:47
Garrick it seems you have been fixated on this subject for quite a long while. It seems at the time you were not aware of the migration differences between the Berber E-M81 and the Balkan E-V13 :grin:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26169-Berbers-and-Albanians-E-haplogroup-and-linguistic-similarity

Like R1's in central europe and the balkans , it seems E haplogroup came there "late" that is,around middle Neolithic times. No E marker has been found in early Neolithic in the Balkans or central Europe............I find this very puzzling if E has origins in Africa or the middle-East.
Was E intension to run along north-africa to Morrocco and into Spain and another to be content with living in the levant !

Garrick
06-06-15, 21:55
Garrick it seems you have been fixated on this subject for quite a long while. It seems at the time you were not aware of the migration differences between the Berber E-M81 and the Balkan E-V13 :grin:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26169-Berbers-and-Albanians-E-haplogroup-and-linguistic-similarity

No Maleth, probably you didn't understand.

I had discussions with other members of forum, especially with LeBrok, and these discussions are very worthy. Unfortunately many languages has disappeared.

You can see:

http://travel.nationalgeographic.com/travel/enduring-voices/

By 2100, more than half of the more than 7,000 languages spoken on Earth—many of them not yet recorded—may disappear, taking with them a wealth of knowledge about history, culture, the natural environment, and the human brain.

...
What did I want to grasp? Extinct languages of haplogroup I. But there are very little data. You saw thread about Nuragic civilization, almost opened. I gave question whether Nuragic language is one of languages of I carriers. It would be wonderful if it is true.

Same thing for languages of haplogroup E-V13. You can notice, maybe I'm one of E-V13 carriers, maybe no, probability exists. I was wondering where we can search languages or at least words of E-V13 languages. In Greece? In Romanian? In Bulgarian/Serbian/Croatian? Etc. Where?

I read some Albanian researches who wanted to find link between Albanian and Afro Asiatic languages (mostly Coptic and Ancient Egyptian). It would be nice that some words of E-V13 carriers saved in Albanian, and it is possible! Of course Albanian is IE language.

But I didn't find appropriate dictionary of Coptic language. Because I have African friends, they helped me to come to Berber words. From this perspective I don't know if I've done something. Albanians wrote that some words which I gave came from Islamic sources transferred from the Turks.

I believe that some words in Albanian came from E-V13 carriers. Maybe some words of E-V13 carriers are in other languages. Maybe Pelasgian has link with E-V13 carriers, but it has no link with Albanian, forerunner of Albanian is not language of E-V13 carriers but language of R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype) and maybe R1a carriers etc. Forerunner of Albanian created in Caucasus or near.

We don't know if some words of E-V13 carriers exist in Albanian or any another IE language. But since this is possible it is open for contributions.

Maleth
06-06-15, 22:02
Like R1's in central europe and the balkans , it seems E haplogroup came there "late" that is,around middle Neolithic times. No E marker has been found in early Neolithic in the Balkans or central Europe............I find this very puzzling if E has origins in Africa or the middle-East.
Was E intension to run along north-africa to Morrocco and into Spain and another to be content with living in the levant !

There are no studies yet on Balkan Neolithic sites. The results we have are Alps and above. If there were please let me know it will be interesting. As for the rest I did not quite understand your question. There is E-M81 prevalent in high percentages in North Africa and E-V13 which is prevalent in the the Balkans. Their migration has nothing to do with each other for thousands of years. What is your question exactly?

Garrick
07-06-15, 02:26
Ed. Please tell me how E-V13 in Greece has influenced Greek in regards to Afro Asiatic languages and all the other languages it has high percentages in? Or is it just a matter of Albania?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Semitic_languages

We can search Afro Asiatic words in all languages in the Balkans, and beyond. I tried in Serbian. Let everyone tries in him/her own language. However Albanian is interesting because some Albanians have sought a connection. You know, there are Albanians who think that they are descendants of Ancient Egyptians.

Maybe, the part of problem is that Serbian, Bulgarian, etc. are classified as Balto Slavic, Romanian as classified as Romance, etc. but Albanian is different from all other categories IE languages, and it is natural that people are looking for a connection with other languages, not only with IE. For example Giuseppe Catapano (Arbresh) wrote the book "Thot Parlava Albanese", seeking connection Albanian and Egyptian (Coptic) which published in Rome in Italian.

Albanian has some words which someone can think they can be derived from ancient Egypt or North Africa, if it is coincidence or not, everyone can concludes for himself/herself. But here, I do not talk about it more.

noUseForAname
07-06-15, 06:24
the 69 ancient samples from page 25 does not contain any E haplogroup. the chart is only for these 69 samples.

Your E sample on page 49 is from a previous study by Lacan in 2011

just use page 23 with page 25 and you will be ok


Yes from Lacan 2011, however they have used this data that they already had to make computations (and for new skeletons they have done new dna plus used the data afterwards)

I think one E-V13 is used if we count the samples from fig 4.2 and 4.3 then there are around 69 samples.

noUseForAname
07-06-15, 06:44
Two New Zealand scientists, with new computational methods found that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranian languages!


Sorry to break this, but you have misrepresented the whole study...please read below (and you haven't answered the questions below)


Originally Posted by Garrick http://cdn.eupedia.com/forum/images/buttons/viewpost-right.png (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=458140#post458140)
New Zealand scientists used new computational-modeling method. Their result is that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranic language.


noUseForAname (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/49032-noUseForAname)
I have found your source (although i asked 3 times to send the source and not just the picture)
You have misrepresented this source (see below) from (Russell D. Gray 2003 year) for the following reasons. I will interpret this study (although more recent studies of 2012 and 2015 show more details)

1: Albanian language is not a subgroup of indic/Iranian (see table below). If it would have been a subgroup then it would fall inside Indic/Iranic
2: Indic/Iranic split 4,600 years ago (own separate branch), Albanian split 6,000 years ago (own separate branch). Colours show separate branches (read the whole source in details please)
3: On the other side Greek and Armenian split 6,800 years ago (therefore own Branch), although it mentions Greek only 800 years old (probably this is only for the modern Greek and not ancient Greek). And Albanian 600 years old (probably this is only for a modern Albanian)
4: The main language groupings are colourcoded. Branch lengths are proportional to the inferred maximum-likelihood estimates ofevolutionary change per cognate....
5: For example *Italic also includes the French/Iberian subgroup, So Italic main branch and subgroups are French/Iberian.
6: So the main groups branches (from older to recent) are: Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, Albanian, Iranian (Indo-Iranian), Indic (indo-Iranian), Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, Italic.....

Now my question to you is: Why the study then shows Albanian as its own Main branch?
Did you even read the source or you just found that pic and wanted to be one sided no matter what?


http://d1vn86fw4xmcz1.cloudfront.net/content/royptb/366/1567/1090/F1.large.jpg?width=800&height=600&carousel=1


Garrick
My assumption is that Albanian originated somewhere in between (today's) Caucasus, northern Iran and eastern Turkey. I suppose that carriers of R1b ht35 (Armenian haplotype), J2 and probably R1a created this language. Albanian is Indo-European, Satem.


noUseForAname (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/49032-noUseForAname)
1:Majority of current Albanians descend from E-V13 (over 40%) how can they originate from Caucus area? (we are not talking about the language here)
2:It is a possibility that Yamna R1b majority 4,000 years ago spread PEI to those regions, as Albanians currently have 18.6% R1b and R1a only 5%
3:It is also a possibility that J2 through Yamna 4,000 ago spread PEI, however this is not supported with the recent (major scale dna study) because Yamna were mostly R1b.
4: Maciamo notes that current Ukrainians have J2a from Greek ancestry, therefore it came to Greek regions much later then E-V13 and R1b because J2a never moved across Yamna (only Yamns brought PEI). J2a must have crossed through current Turkey but definitely didnt brought PEI with them. If J2 moved there at earlier say around 3,000 years ago it should have already found E-V113 and R1b, that is why E-V13 and R1b at Albanians have over 60% together. Currently J2 is 18%.
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads...-Europe/page22 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/30878-Massive-migration-from-the-steppe-is-a-source-for-Indo-European-languages-in-Europe/page22)

So once again how can Albanians Originate from Caucus when altogether E-V13 R1b and I2 = 77.5%


QUOTE=Garrick;458186]What I wrote:
Albanian and Indic & Iranic languages split 6000 years ago, according them. But it split from Indic & Iranic languages, not from Armenian, or Slavic, or Celtic.


noUseForAname (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/49032-noUseForAname)
Incorrect, According to the source Albanian is before Indic/Iranic, 6: So the main groups branches (from older to recent) are: Anatolian, Tocharian, Armenian, Greek, Albanian, Iranian (Indo-Iranian), Indic (indo-Iranian), Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, Italic.....
Therefore Albanian is split 6,200 years, on the other side Indic/Iranic 4,600 years ago (Check the source below with years noted)
All those main Languages (colorized) are split as a main separate branches from indo-European.
https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Us...ayAtkinson.pdf (https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/tuitekj/MonDepotPublic/cours/IE/GrayAtkinson.pdf)


Garrick
It is possible that proto Albanian originated from area Caucasus, today’s eastern Turkey and northern Iran. And it is possible that population who spoke proto Albanian moved over land in the region around Black sea to the Moldavia (Southern Ukraine/Romania). And this population mixed in with E-V13 carriers who were numerous in the area where these two populations merged (maybe in this area E-V13 is numerous and today).


If language came from somewhere that doesn't mean all the people too (it might be by smaller numbers), in this case we have E-V13 over 40% + !2 and !1 to 57.5%, lets say most R1b (with 20%) brought PEI, and it cannot be before 6,000 years ago cause thats when they migrated through Yamna. So population might grew for another 20% to 77.5%. And then J2 came later with 18%. Those are current dna numbers at it makes pretty much sense this way.

Therefore arguing that Albanian originated from Caucus is wrong, because its language could have originated from there (like all the other PEI languages), and if we are supposing that R1b brought PEI from around today Caucus north Mesopotamia and north east Anatolia.

Thats why i asked you and am asking you again how can current Albanians originated (not language) from Caucus when altogether E-V13 R1b and I2 = 77.5%


Garrick
Dienekes once wrote that J2 carriers entered very late in Albanian substratum in area present-day Albania.


noUseForAname (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/49032-noUseForAname)
Yes i think too J2 entered much later and in small numbers, thats why its 18%

Garrick
Albanian has same root as Indic languages (for example Kashmiri) and Iranian languages (for example Baluchi), which can means, if they’re right, that proto Albanian was more to the east far from the Armenian.


noUseForAname (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/members/49032-noUseForAname)
Baluchi?....you seem not to understand the basics (although i explained everything above)

Albanian is split 6,200 years as a separate and own branch from PEI, on the other side Indic/Iranic 4,600 years ago (according to study)...just read above my explanation and check the study and years.....hope you understand by now.

https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Us...ayAtkinson.pdf (https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/tuitekj/MonDepotPublic/cours/IE/GrayAtkinson.pdf)

noUseForAname
07-06-15, 07:07
Generally considered Albanian to be the closest to Armenian.

Two New Zealand scientists, with new computational methods found that Albanian has same root as Indic and Iranian languages



In addition, New Zealand scientist source you have placed Russell D. Gray & Quentin D. Atkinson, University of Auckland, New Zealand

Came upon this video of PEI spread, tell me if you see if Albanian has same root as indic and Iranian nor even Armenian LOL


<strong>
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdQwalCPNAs


http://www.sciencealert.com/watch-this-map-shows-how-indo-european-languages-may-have-evolved
https://www.webdepot.umontreal.ca/Usagers/tuitekj/MonDepotPublic/cours/IE/GrayAtkinson.pdf



Therefore you have completely misrepresented the source you have placed

Yetos
07-06-15, 07:38
@ noUseForAname


I suggest you must read and watch the link bellow

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/31280-Mismodeling-Indo-European-Origins-The-Assault-On-Historical-Linguistics?p=458648#post458648

It will help you enough, to have clear view,

and understand the difference among possible and certain in science,

Maleth
07-06-15, 09:19
I read some Albanian researches who wanted to find link between Albanian and Afro Asiatic languages (mostly Coptic and Ancient Egyptian). It would be nice that some words of E-V13 carriers saved in Albanian, and it is possible! Of course Albanian is IE language.

E-V13 has been mutated much prior to classic Egypt and personally I do not believe that E-V13 men formed some kind of homogeneous tribe but rather was mutated in an already haplogroup mixed kind of society. Also the mutation has happened in a completely different geographical region of the world. The connection is just fancy full if you know what I mean. They have better chances to connect to ancient people of the area such as Thracians and Illyrians and others in the area. Everyone will be thrilled to be connected to great civilizations such as those of Egypt, but one has to be logical. The E folks in Egypt (M78) and E-V13 might have had a common ancestor some 17,000 years ago, which is a very very long time.



Albanians wrote that some words which I gave came from Islamic sources transferred from the Turks.

Much more plausible, just like the semetic words found in modern Spanish and Sicilian dialect. A result of being influenced by a more recent occupation rather then carried by an ancient haplogroup.

noUseForAname
08-06-15, 18:23
[QUOTE]Albanian 2nd is not mean Albanian in the Balkan origin is 2nd, it is big difference, geographical area of origin could be Anatolia, the Caucasus, Moldavia etc./QUOTE]


Of course it means (according to the source) Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd (balkan origin 10,000). For the following reasons. I am not concluding the study is.

They are concluding that the most current (in highest %) populations that descends directly from early Neolithic European inhabitants (early European farmers) and WHG are: from 10,000 ybp
1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque

Study argues that those populations who have near easter component are ashkenazi Jews, Maltese, Sicilians etc
There you go its all here


Table S9.3: Populations that improve resnorm for European outlier populations when added to a model of EN/WHG/EHG admixture as a 4th ancestral population. We show the top 20 populations that reduce resnorm the most when added to the mixture model. For Maltese, Sicilians, and Ashkenazi Jews these populations tend to be from the Middle East and North Africa

Maltese Sicilian Ashkenazi Jew

4th anc. pop. resnorm 4th anc. pop. resnorm 4th anc. pop.resnorm
Moroccan_Jew 0.000006 Turkish_Jew 0.000006 Cypriot 0.000006
Lebanese 0.000010 Cypriot 0.000006 Iraqi_Jew 0.000018
Syrian 0.000010 Moroccan_Jew 0.000009 Turkish_Jew 0.000018
Tunisian_Jew 0.000011 Druze 0.000012 Moroccan_Jew 0.000020
Saudi 0.000014 Iraqi_Jew 0.000012 Druze 0.000025
Turkish_Jew 0.000016 Syrian 0.000014 Lebanese 0.000027
Libyan_Jew 0.000017 Lebanese 0.000016 Syrian 0.000028
Jordanian 0.000017 Tunisian_Jew 0.000019 Tunisian_Jew 0.000037
Palestinian 0.000019 Saudi 0.000021 Saudi 0.000039
Druze 0.000022 Jordanian 0.000022 Iranian_Jew 0.000039
Yemenite_Jew 0.000022 Libyan_Jew0.000025 Jordanian 0.000039
BedouinB 0.000022 Palestinian 0.000026 Palestinian 0.000044
BedouinA 0.000023 BedouinB 0.000027 Libyan_Jew 0.000044
Tunisian 0.000024 Yemenite_Jew 0.000028 Yemenite_Jew 0.000045
Mozabite 0.000024 Tunisian 0.000028 BedouinB 0.000045
Algerian 0.000025 Mozabite 0.000028 BedouinA 0.000046
Egyptian 0.000025 BedouinA 0.000028 Tunisian 0.000046
Saharawi 0.000026 Egyptian 0.000028 Egyptian 0.000046
Yemen 0.000028 Algerian 0.000029 Mozabite 0.000047
Esan 0.000030 Saharawi 0.000029 Algerian 0.000047


Check the Figure S9.27 (pg 124) please, Albanians have:

0% Beduine (Which is of Near Eastern component)
77% EN (Early Neolithic)
2.2% Nagasan
3.3% WHG
17.5% YanmayaSo Albanians and Greeks actually don't even have a slightest % from the components of Near eastern farmers.

Fig. S9.24 shows that when WHG admixture is added to EN, residuals for most European populations are reduced, consistent with most Europeans not being descended from EN farmers of Europe. Four populations indicate no change in residuals: Sardinians are the population that is closest to early European farmers2,7-9,12 with an estimated ~ 90% descent from them. Albanians are second and Greeks third
(ref. 2 and Fig. S9.23b), while Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews, and Sicilians may have Near Eastern admixture not mediated via early European farmers2.

Therefore according to this study current Albanians are de facto a direct descent from Early Neolithic European farmers (10,000 ybp)

LeBrok
08-06-15, 19:45
Therefore according to this study current Albanians are de facto a direct descent from Early Neolithic European farmers (10,000 ybp)

And de facto, so are all Europeans. Keep in mind that Early Neolithic European Farmers are, de factor, the descendants of Early Near Eastern Farmers. Just keep in mind that Early Near Eastern Farmers are not exactly the same as today's Near Eastern Farmers. Just like today's Europeans are not exactly the same as Neolithic or Mesolithic Europeans. We are a mixture of few distinct populations.
And so is everybody on Earth.

noUseForAname
10-06-15, 02:52
And de facto, so are all Europeans. Keep in mind that Early Neolithic European Farmers are, de factor, the descendants of Early Near Eastern Farmers. Just keep in mind that Early Near Eastern Farmers are not exactly the same as today's Near Eastern Farmers. Just like today's Europeans are not exactly the same as Neolithic or Mesolithic Europeans. We are a mixture of few distinct populations.
And so is everybody on Earth.

Yes of course all the rest of European descend (some with higher some with lower %) from Early European Farmers as their all mixed, however i was arguing that highest percentages with descend from Early European Farmers are:
1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque
etc....

now if we go back before 10,000 those Early European farmers either came from Africa or near east or near easter famers (probably is near eastern farmers) as the first farming was fond i think in north east Africa and a place in today Israel (cant remember the name)....there it is below.....

Recent discoveries in Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe), such as Cyprus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus) and mainland Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) has shown that farming started early in south east Europe. In Franchthi Cave (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franchthi_Cave)in Greece there are no certain gathering of plant foods attested before c. 11,000 bc, although large numbers of seeds of the Boraginaceae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boraginaceae) family may come from plants gathered to furnish soft bedding or for the dye which their roots may have supplied. First appearing at c. 11,000bc are lentils, vetch, pistachios, and almonds. Then c. 10,500bc appear a few very rare seeds of wild oats and wild barley. Neither wild oats nor wild barley become at all common until c. 7000bc[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture#cite_note-19)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture#cite_note-20) in Cyprus. The oldest agricultural settlement ever found on a Mediterranean island has been discovered in Klimonas. between 9100 and 8600 bc

Anthropological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropology) and archaeological (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology) evidence from sites across Southwest Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southwest_Asia) and North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa) indicate use of wild grain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cereal) (e.g., from the c. 20,000b c site ofOhalo II (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohalo_II) in Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel), many Natufian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natufian) sites in the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) and from sites along the Nile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile) in the 10th millennium bc).
It was not until after 9500 bc that the eight so-called founder crops (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_founder_crops) of agriculture appear: first emmer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmer_wheat) and einkorn wheat (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einkorn_wheat), then hulled barley (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barley), peas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pea),lentils (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lentil),bitter vetch (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vicia_ervilia), chick peas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chick_pea) and flax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flax). These eight crops occur more or less simultaneously on Pre-Pottery Neolithic B (PPNB (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pre-Pottery_Neolithic_B)) sites in the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant)
By 7000 bc, sowing and harvesting reached Mesopotamia.....http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture

What i understand is not the near East (considering Syria, Anatolia, Mesopotamia) but the far north east Africa (M-78 peak) and the very south west Levant like Ohalo.

So that might mean that by 10,000 BC there was already farming in the far south east Balkans that came from north east Africa and the far south west Levant.

It looks like the peak was south east Africa which at the same time spread in one direction at Crete and then Peloponnese (reaching south East Europe without going across through Levant and Anatolia) and the other group spread through Levant Syria and reached Mesopotamia by 7,000 BC.

noUseForAname
10-06-15, 02:59
By far the highest rates of IBD within any populations is found between Albanian speakers—around 90 ancestors from 0–500 ya, and around 600 ancestors from 500–1,500 ya (so high that we left them out of Figure 5 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio-1001555-g005); see Figure S12 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1001555.s012)). Beyond 1,500 ya, the rates of IBD drop to levels typical for other populations in the eastern grouping.

The highest levels of IBD sharing are found in the Albanian-speaking individuals (from Albania and Kosovo), an increase in common ancestry deriving from the last 1,500 years. This suggests that a reasonable proportion of the ancestors of modern-day Albanian speakers (at least those represented in POPRES) are drawn from a relatively small, cohesive population that has persisted for at least the last 1,500 years. These individuals share similar but slightly higher numbers of common ancestors with nearby populations than do individuals in other parts of Europe (see Figure S3 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1001555.s003)), implying that these Albanian speakers have not been a particularly isolated population so much as a small one. Furthermore, our Greek and Macedonian samples share much higher numbers of common ancestors with Albanian speakers than with other neighbors, possibly a result of historical migrations, or else perhaps smaller effects of the Slavic expansion in these populations. It is also interesting to note that the sampled Italians share nearly as much IBD with Albanian speakers as with each other. The Albanian language is a Indo-European language without other close relatives [53] (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1001555-Hamp1) that persisted through periods when neighboring languages were strongly influenced by Latin or Greek, suggesting an intriguing link between linguistic and genealogical history in this case.

The migration period.
One of the striking patterns we see is the relatively high level of sharing of IBD between pairs of individuals across eastern Europe, as high or higher than that observed within other, much smaller populations. This is consistent with these individuals having a comparatively large proportion of ancestry drawn from a relatively small population that expanded over a large geographic area. The “smooth” estimates of Figure 4 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio-1001555-g004) (and more generally Figures 5 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio-1001555-g005) and S17 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1001555.s017)) suggest that this increase in ancestry stems from around 1,000–2,000 ya, since during this time pairs of eastern individuals are expected to share a substantial number of common ancestors, while this is only true of pairs of noneastern individuals if they are from the same population. For example, even individuals from widely separated eastern populations share about the same amount of IBD as do two Irish individuals (see Figure S3 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1001555.s003)), suggesting that this ancestral population may have been relatively small.This evidence is consistent with the idea that these populations derive a substantial proportion of their ancestry from various groups that expanded during the “migration period” from the fourth through ninth centuries [51] (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1001555-Davies1). This period begins with the Huns moving into eastern Europe towards the end of the fourth century, establishing an empire including modern-day Hungary and Romania, and continues in the fifth century as various Germanic groups moved into and ruled much of the western Roman empire. This was followed by the expansion of the Slavic populations into regions of low population density beginning in the sixth century, reaching their maximum by the 10th century [52] (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1001555-Barford1). The eastern populations with high rates of IBD are highly coincident with the modern distribution of Slavic languages, so it is natural to speculate that much of the higher rates were due to this expansion. The inclusion of (non-Slavic speaking) Hungary and Romania in the group of eastern populations sharing high IBD could indicate the effect of other groups (e.g., the Huns) on ancestry in these regions, or because some of the same group of people who elsewhere are known as Slavs adopted different local cultures in those regions. Greece and Albania are also part of this putative signal of expansion, which could be because the Slavs settled in part of these areas (with unknown demographic effect), or because of subsequent population exchange. However, additional work and methods would be needed to verify this hypothesis.


For instance, we could argue that the high degree of shared common ancestry among Albanian speakers was because most of these sampled originated from a small area rather than uniformly across Albania and Kosovo. However, this would not explain the high rate of IBD between Albanian speakers and neighboring populations. Even populations from which we only have one or two samples, which we at first assumed would be unusably noisy, provide generally reliable, consistent patterns, as evidenced by, for example, Figure S3 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555#pbio.1001555.s003).



http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7280&d=1433780510&thumb=1 (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=7280&d=1433872204)


bottom row is 2550-4335 years ago, you can see that Albanian is the red colour and sufficiently at the very high percentage then the others at 2550-4335 years ago.




http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology...l.pbio.1001555 (http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001555)

ukaj
13-10-15, 13:48
Like R1's in central europe and the balkans , it seems E haplogroup came there "late" that is,around middle Neolithic times. No E marker has been found in early Neolithic in the Balkans or central Europe............I find this very puzzling if E has origins in Africa or the middle-East.
Was E intension to run along north-africa to Morrocco and into Spain and another to be content with living in the levant ! Maybe this will help. https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/more-y-snp-calls-from-iron-and-bronze-age-bulgaria/
E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic

ukaj
13-10-15, 13:51
[QUOTE=Garrick;458806]E-V13 did not come from anywhere but the Balkans. Its immediate ancestors are Mesolithic Balkanic my friend this may help you tests done this year.




Of course it means (according to the source) Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd (balkan origin 10,000). For the following reasons. I am not concluding the study is.

They are concluding that the most current (in highest %) populations that descends directly from early Neolithic European inhabitants (early European farmers) and WHG are: from 10,000 ybp
1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque

Study argues that those populations who have near easter component are ashkenazi Jews, Maltese, Sicilians etc
There you go its all here


Table S9.3: Populations that improve resnorm for European outlier populations when added to a model of EN/WHG/EHG admixture as a 4th ancestral population. We show the top 20 populations that reduce resnorm the most when added to the mixture model. For Maltese, Sicilians, and Ashkenazi Jews these populations tend to be from the Middle East and North Africa

Maltese Sicilian Ashkenazi Jew

4th anc. pop. resnorm 4th anc. pop. resnorm 4th anc. pop.resnorm
Moroccan_Jew 0.000006 Turkish_Jew 0.000006 Cypriot 0.000006
Lebanese 0.000010 Cypriot 0.000006 Iraqi_Jew 0.000018
Syrian 0.000010 Moroccan_Jew 0.000009 Turkish_Jew 0.000018
Tunisian_Jew 0.000011 Druze 0.000012 Moroccan_Jew 0.000020
Saudi 0.000014 Iraqi_Jew 0.000012 Druze 0.000025
Turkish_Jew 0.000016 Syrian 0.000014 Lebanese 0.000027
Libyan_Jew 0.000017 Lebanese 0.000016 Syrian 0.000028
Jordanian 0.000017 Tunisian_Jew 0.000019 Tunisian_Jew 0.000037
Palestinian 0.000019 Saudi 0.000021 Saudi 0.000039
Druze 0.000022 Jordanian 0.000022 Iranian_Jew 0.000039
Yemenite_Jew 0.000022 Libyan_Jew0.000025 Jordanian 0.000039
BedouinB 0.000022 Palestinian 0.000026 Palestinian 0.000044
BedouinA 0.000023 BedouinB 0.000027 Libyan_Jew 0.000044
Tunisian 0.000024 Yemenite_Jew 0.000028 Yemenite_Jew 0.000045
Mozabite 0.000024 Tunisian 0.000028 BedouinB 0.000045
Algerian 0.000025 Mozabite 0.000028 BedouinA 0.000046
Egyptian 0.000025 BedouinA 0.000028 Tunisian 0.000046
Saharawi 0.000026 Egyptian 0.000028 Egyptian 0.000046
Yemen 0.000028 Algerian 0.000029 Mozabite 0.000047
Esan 0.000030 Saharawi 0.000029 Algerian 0.000047


Check the Figure S9.27 (pg 124) please, Albanians have:

0% Beduine (Which is of Near Eastern component)
77% EN (Early Neolithic)
2.2% Nagasan
3.3% WHG
17.5% YanmayaSo Albanians and Greeks actually don't even have a slightest % from the components of Near eastern farmers.

Fig. S9.24 shows that when WHG admixture is added to EN, residuals for most European populations are reduced, consistent with most Europeans not being descended from EN farmers of Europe. Four populations indicate no change in residuals: Sardinians are the population that is closest to early European farmers2,7-9,12 with an estimated ~ 90% descent from them. Albanians are second and Greeks third
(ref. 2 and Fig. S9.23b), while Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews, and Sicilians may have Near Eastern admixture not mediated via early European farmers2.

Therefore according to this study current Albanians are de facto a direct descent from Early Neolithic European farmers (10,000 ybp)

https://genetiker.wordpress.com/2015/09/01/more-y-snp-calls-from-iron-and-bronze-age-bulgaria/

Dibran
25-09-16, 15:41
It would make sense considering that Gjergj Fishta the chronicler of Events at the time stated our ancestors came from the Black Sea. This would lend credence to the idea that the small tribal migration may have carried r1a1a, maybe one of the many markers carried by thracians, and assimilated the EV-13 populations. Many seem to think these migrations completely replaced everyone, but much like Syrian migrations into Europe today, it could have been small waves that assimilated the populations around them.

Dibran
25-09-16, 15:56
Please read my earlier posts in this thread, because Albanians have the highest % of E-V13 in the world then it is very unlikely that they have come from north of Black Sea.
If you read more about E-V13 then you will have a better understanding.
On the other side even if lets say the Albanians were predominantly R1b, then its clearly not the dark age they came there....R1b passed by and settled in south east Balkans in small number i believe at least 5,000 years ago, earlier than western Europe which it is believed it went there 4,000 ago and found their home there.

I am more inclined to believe that the Proto-Albanians represented by small migration waves, assimilated the EV-13 carriers. At least linguistically. This can be seen for example In Arab speaking Lebanese whom for the most part are descended from assimilated Phoenicians. Whom of course were not Arabic.

Much like the the south Slavs are not that genetically diverse from their Balkan neighbors. They assimilated the people's they found.

The writer Gjergj Fishta even made the claim that Albanians ancestor tribe descended from around the Black Sea.

Considering we have no maritime vocabulary, fewer Greek influences and more Latin influences, may place us as being near or around the Romanians. We have more linguistic words in common with them than the rest of our balkan neighbors. This may place the Albanians somewhere in Daco-Maoesia, and possibly from various migrations and invasions pushing us southward into albania. At least from the origin of the language itself.

Idk why so many Albanians want a link with Illyrians. They were squabbling tribes and barbarous with little to no points of unity aside from short lived teuta. More likely a Daco-Thracian connection. At least originally.

My own paternal haplogroup is R1a1a, and maternal is H11a.

Dibran
25-09-16, 16:17
Albanians should have been R1B and R1A clades people,I mean those who have spread Albanian language.
If you would look on some genetic testing of Albanian highlanders,they have higher R1A than Albanian low-landers.
That R1A can not be from Slavic speakers.
They came,conquered and assimilated E-V13 and J2 Neolithic people.
No idea to which group proto-Albanian speakers were included,they were and are Satem speakers,so they are from IE group with Slavs,Armenians,Iranians.
As for the tales of some Slavs,that they are descending from India,those are fairy tales.
Maybe proto-Albanian speakers were included between Thracians or who knows.
Proto-people from Balkans were neither Slavic neither Albanian speakers,they were E-v13 and J2 and I2 people.


Considering the the huge list of words in common with Romanians, higher Latin influences and fewer Greek influences including fewer loan words between our neighbors, I am inclined to believe Albanians at least Proto-Albanians were nearer to Romanians before being pushed by invasions. At least linguistically this may be the case.

Daco-Maoesia may be the original dwelling of Proto-Albanian ancestors. At least from a linguistic stand point. Even Gjergj Fishta wrote that our ancestors hailed from somewhere near the Black Sea. I'm of the opinion that the original Albanians were either daco-maeosian or another Thracian tribe that migrated to its present place, carrying R1a1a And assimilating EV-13 populations.

My family are highlanders. Originally from Mirdita and migrated to Diber Vogel In the Martanesh region.

My mother is H11a and she is descended Gjon Buas Shpata more near to northern Epirus, before migrating to Puka Malsia. Her paternal grandmother carried the surname Pitsari which interestingly the common genetic relation with a Greek individual from Epirus on 23andMe had the surname Pitsaris.

My genetic composition was predominantly Greek, Albanian, and than Romanian(which I'm sure is not an exact science). I had a small admixture of Sicilian, Broadly Southern European, and Eastern European with a drop of Japanese lol.

LABERIA
25-09-16, 17:21
I am more inclined to believe that the Proto-Albanians represented by small migration waves, assimilated the EV-13 carriers. At least linguistically. This can be seen for example In Arab speaking Lebanese whom for the most part are descended from assimilated Phoenicians. Whom of course were not Arabic.

Much like the the south Slavs are not that genetically diverse from their Balkan neighbors. They assimilated the people's they found.

The writer Gjergj Fishta even made the claim that Albanians ancestor tribe descended from around the Black Sea.

Considering we have no maritime vocabulary, fewer Greek influences and more Latin influences, may place us as being near or around the Romanians. We have more linguistic words in common with them than the rest of our balkan neighbors. This may place the Albanians somewhere in Daco-Maoesia, and possibly from various migrations and invasions pushing us southward into albania. At least from the origin of the language itself.

Idk why so many Albanians want a link with Illyrians. They were squabbling tribes and barbarous with little to no points of unity aside from short lived teuta. More likely a Daco-Thracian connection. At least originally.

My own paternal haplogroup is R1a1a, and maternal is H11a.

Can you quote At Gjergj Fishta? Can you post a link?

Dibran
25-09-16, 18:16
Can you quote At Gjergj Fishta? Can you post a link?

I need to ask my father again where he read this. I was hoping someone with knowledge on his writings could confirm the accuracy or lack thereof. Il get back to you when I receive an answer.

Peace.

LABERIA
25-09-16, 18:30
It would make sense considering that Gjergj Fishta the chronicler of Events at the time stated our ancestors came from the Black Sea. This would lend credence to the idea that the small tribal migration may have carried r1a1a, maybe one of the many markers carried by thracians, and assimilated the EV-13 populations. Many seem to think these migrations completely replaced everyone, but much like Syrian migrations into Europe today, it could have been small waves that assimilated the populations around them.

Can you ask also your father what are this Events?
Just for curiosity, your father, speak Albanian?

Angela
25-09-16, 20:32
If you can't post links to reputable historical or genetics papers, no one is interested. Is that clear?

Dibran
09-10-16, 17:38
@Garrick

That is a pathetic attempt at trying to connect Albanians to the caucusus.

Albanians don't even call themselves Albanian. This is a title given by the Latin due to the alps. Scotland was once called Albania as well. Using your reasoning we are Scottish also?

You are drawing at straws. Even if we originally descended from the Caucasus, so to do many Balkan tribes in antiquity. The evidence still concludes that Slavs were the latest arrival; so not sure what you are trying to prove.

Dibran
09-10-16, 17:40
If you can't post links to reputable historical or genetics papers, no one is interested. Is that clear?

Calm yourself. Never stated anything as fact and merely startng dialogue with fellow Albanians to see if they heard this claim and have any information on it yo substantiate the story. Is that clear?

Dibran
09-10-16, 17:51
[QUOTE=Garrick;458806]



Of course it means (according to the source) Albanian 2nd and Greek 3rd (balkan origin 10,000). For the following reasons. I am not concluding the study is.

They are concluding that the most current (in highest %) populations that descends directly from early Neolithic European inhabitants (early European farmers) and WHG are: from 10,000 ybp
1: Sardinian
2: Albanian
3: Greek
4: Spanish
5: Bergamo
6: Basque

Study argues that those populations who have near easter component are ashkenazi Jews, Maltese, Sicilians etc
There you go its all here


Table S9.3: Populations that improve resnorm for European outlier populations when added to a model of EN/WHG/EHG admixture as a 4th ancestral population. We show the top 20 populations that reduce resnorm the most when added to the mixture model. For Maltese, Sicilians, and Ashkenazi Jews these populations tend to be from the Middle East and North Africa

Maltese Sicilian Ashkenazi Jew

4th anc. pop. resnorm 4th anc. pop. resnorm 4th anc. pop.resnorm
Moroccan_Jew 0.000006 Turkish_Jew 0.000006 Cypriot 0.000006
Lebanese 0.000010 Cypriot 0.000006 Iraqi_Jew 0.000018
Syrian 0.000010 Moroccan_Jew 0.000009 Turkish_Jew 0.000018
Tunisian_Jew 0.000011 Druze 0.000012 Moroccan_Jew 0.000020
Saudi 0.000014 Iraqi_Jew 0.000012 Druze 0.000025
Turkish_Jew 0.000016 Syrian 0.000014 Lebanese 0.000027
Libyan_Jew 0.000017 Lebanese 0.000016 Syrian 0.000028
Jordanian 0.000017 Tunisian_Jew 0.000019 Tunisian_Jew 0.000037
Palestinian 0.000019 Saudi 0.000021 Saudi 0.000039
Druze 0.000022 Jordanian 0.000022 Iranian_Jew 0.000039
Yemenite_Jew 0.000022 Libyan_Jew0.000025 Jordanian 0.000039
BedouinB 0.000022 Palestinian 0.000026 Palestinian 0.000044
BedouinA 0.000023 BedouinB 0.000027 Libyan_Jew 0.000044
Tunisian 0.000024 Yemenite_Jew 0.000028 Yemenite_Jew 0.000045
Mozabite 0.000024 Tunisian 0.000028 BedouinB 0.000045
Algerian 0.000025 Mozabite 0.000028 BedouinA 0.000046
Egyptian 0.000025 BedouinA 0.000028 Tunisian 0.000046
Saharawi 0.000026 Egyptian 0.000028 Egyptian 0.000046
Yemen 0.000028 Algerian 0.000029 Mozabite 0.000047
Esan 0.000030 Saharawi 0.000029 Algerian 0.000047


Check the Figure S9.27 (pg 124) please, Albanians have:

0% Beduine (Which is of Near Eastern component)
77% EN (Early Neolithic)
2.2% Nagasan
3.3% WHG
17.5% YanmayaSo Albanians and Greeks actually don't even have a slightest % from the components of Near eastern farmers.

Fig. S9.24 shows that when WHG admixture is added to EN, residuals for most European populations are reduced, consistent with most Europeans not being descended from EN farmers of Europe. Four populations indicate no change in residuals: Sardinians are the population that is closest to early European farmers2,7-9,12 with an estimated ~ 90% descent from them. Albanians are second and Greeks third
(ref. 2 and Fig. S9.23b), while Maltese, Ashkenazi Jews, and Sicilians may have Near Eastern admixture not mediated via early European farmers2.

Therefore according to this study current Albanians are de facto a direct descent from Early Neolithic European farmers (10,000 ybp)



Are the GedMatch calculators in regards to early European farmers and WHG accurate ?

I scored roughly 40% for EEF and 30 for WHG. I'M Albanian btw.

blevins13
17-10-16, 09:41
This is interesting, where did you get it from?

blevins13
17-10-16, 22:14
This is the first time I hear this......the claim of Albanian is that they are Authoctons in Balkan area, nothing more nothing less

blevins13
18-10-16, 13:19
I believe that is obvius

Illyros son of Kadmus invte Illyria
so albania has J2

aeolian E wich was cut isolated and became another nation is the kossovo E-V13

the possibilty that GeG means also achaic ->agaig ->geg a+i = e
(watch acha-menides, aga-memnon, achaic, turkish aga =leader aga-memnon = ruler memnon)

the genetical connection with peloponese Achaic is probably obvius

events unite J2 and E-V13 to albanians
also J2 and E-V13 to Greeks

the R1a and R1b is the rulers probably R1a Thracian and R1b Celtic



I am not sure how you come to the conclusion that Geg meansachaic. Geg name is not that old. On the other side it make more sense to believethat E-V13 is high in Peloponnesus due to Albanian migration there after 1,000AD.

blevins13
18-10-16, 14:33
Isnt this thread on who are the Albanians and their DNA?. We know they have high percentages of I's and R1b's besides E-V13. We have no studies from Neolithic sites in the Balkans and the 1 E-V13 found in a Neolithic site in Spain proves that it has been around in Europe since the Neolithic, so Im doing my best to figure out what is trying to be proved in regards to the Albanians and their DNA. We know one thing for sure, Albanians are not close to current Turkish populations. I remember first time i joined the forums I used to see all over the place that Albanians are descendants of Turks. DNA busted that is a myth.

Do we have DNA samples on the huge amount of Bones found in regions that probably were more populated due to the climatic conditions in the neolithic period? The answer is NO. The probability is that Neolithic sites were extremely sparsely populated anyway and life was more populous to the south (because of climatic conditions we all know of).

These Serbians will never let go the history of Caucasus or maybeCarpates, or why not Berbers, it does not matter as long as it justifies theirtheory that the Albanians are late comers in the Balkans and they either shouldgo back to Caucasus or die.
Same is with Greeks, whoever lives in Greece it is eitherGreek or dead (60 year ago) or ashamed nowadays.
It is petty full to have neighbors like this. I neverunderstood from where all this hate comes from since Albanians never occupiedtheir territories.
The only claim that Albanian have is that there are indeed autochthonesin the Balkans.

Dani
15-05-17, 19:10
Because of religion.
Anyway, I am both Greek and Albanian from Kosovo. So, admixture is the only constant since the beginning

Dani
15-05-17, 19:20
Of course this hate (due to religion, alliances with Turks and territories) exist also from Albanians against Greeks. Juste check this on Instagram, Facebook or YouTube.

novakovich
13-07-17, 23:33
I was always wondering about origin of word Albanian, since Albanian do not use that name for them. Only possible connection should be with Caucasian Albania. As I know Ottoman Empire relocated many Caucasian people after lost war with Russia on territory of today Greece, Albania and Kosovo in order to increase Muslim population in that region. Those people were belonging to different nations as Circassian, Chechens, Ingush, Abkhaz and many others. During the time all those refugees became Albanized. I believe that those people left name to Albania, based on their homeland. Some of final non Albanized Cherkez were relocated to Russian federation after was in Kosovo by their own request.It will be intersting to study genetic contribution of Caucasians to current Albanian population. I think they significantly increased distribution of J2 haplogroup in the region. Another much bigger contribution of J2 haplogroup of current Albanians comes from heavy assimilated Aromanian people.Also I believe that higher concentration of Rb haplogroup in Albanians are not related to Celts, but with recent migration of Cumans to Balkan which left Eurasian steppe trying to avoid annihilation from Mongols. And finally E1V13 haplogroup is probably connected with Pelasgians and not with Thracians or Illirians. So Albanians are mixture of different people, like any other nation from Balkan.

blevins13
24-07-17, 13:51
I was always wondering about origin of word Albanian, since Albanian do not use that name for them. Only possible connection should be with Caucasian Albania. As I know Ottoman Empire relocated many Caucasian people after lost war with Russia on territory of today Greece, Albania and Kosovo in order to increase Muslim population in that region. Those people were belonging to different nations as Circassian, Chechens, Ingush, Abkhaz and many others. During the time all those refugees became Albanized. I believe that those people left name to Albania, based on their homeland. Some of final non Albanized Cherkez were relocated to Russian federation after was in Kosovo by their own request.It will be intersting to study genetic contribution of Caucasians to current Albanian population. I think they significantly increased distribution of J2 haplogroup in the region. Another much bigger contribution of J2 haplogroup of current Albanians comes from heavy assimilated Aromanian people.Also I believe that higher concentration of Rb haplogroup in Albanians are not related to Celts, but with recent migration of Cumans to Balkan which left Eurasian steppe trying to avoid annihilation from Mongols. And finally E1V13 haplogroup is probably connected with Pelasgians and not with Thracians or Illirians. So Albanians are mixture of different people, like any other nation from Balkan.

Keep it up Novakovich, it is only a matter of time that all this bullshit blowed up about Albanians will fall on your head...


Sent from my iPhone using Eupedia Forum (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=89698)

Johane Derite
24-07-17, 15:36
I was always wondering about origin of word Albanian, since Albanian do not use that name for them. Only possible connection should be with Caucasian Albania.

I am beyond baffled at how confidently you can reach such extraordinary conclusions on subjects its clear you know nothing about. Why not be quiet instead on a subject you are ignorant of?

Albanians did not call themselves "Shqiptar" before 1685.
They started calling themselves Shqiptar during the Ottoman Empire as "Shqipton/Shqipon/Shqiptu" means "to pronounce/to speak"
and "Shqipë" simply means "the language(Albanian)." The suffix "-tar" in Albanian is equivalent entirely to the suffix "-er" in English (as in Icelander, worker, speaker).
Shqiptar literally means "Speaker" (albanian being the language implicit).

IMAGE: 8955


Because this is much more historically recent it points to a change in the identity of the Albanians based on who spoke the language during the ottoman empire.

Prior to Albanians calling themselves Shqiptar they called themselves many variations of something which is very similar to the English "Albanian"

The Albanians that fled from the turks to Italy after Skenderbeg fell called and still call themselves ARBERESH
The Albanians that sill live in enclaves all the way up north in croatia since a long time ago call themselves ARBANAS
Other names we call ourselves which are still popular names are Arben, Arber.
Arbëria is synonomous with Shqiperia.

Seriously though, why comment and posture as if you are informed on a subject you're clearly not

Kingslav
24-07-17, 16:24
I am beyond baffled at how confidently you can reach such extraordinary conclusions on subjects its clear you know nothing about. Why not be quiet instead on a subject you are ignorant of?

Albanians did not call themselves "Shqiptar" before 1685.
They started calling themselves Shqiptar during the Ottoman Empire as "Shqipton/Shqipon/Shqiptu" means "to pronounce/to speak"
and "Shqipë" simply means "the language(Albanian)." The suffix "-tar" in Albanian is equivalent entirely to the suffix "-er" in English (as in Icelander, worker, speaker).
Shqiptar literally means "Speaker" (albanian being the language implicit).

IMAGE: 8955


Because this is much more historically recent it points to a change in the identity of the Albanians based on who spoke the language during the ottoman empire.

Prior to Albanians calling themselves Shqiptar they called themselves many variations of something which is very similar to the English "Albanian"

The Albanians that fled from the turks to Italy after Skenderbeg fell called and still call themselves ARBERESH
The Albanians that sill live in enclaves all the way up north in croatia since a long time ago call themselves ARBANAS
Other names we call ourselves which are still popular names are Arben, Arber.
Arbëria is synonomous with Shqiperia.

Seriously though, why comment and posture as if you are informed on a subject you're clearly not

Thanks for posting, I have question since you know a lot.
How much Slavic Admixture exists in modern Albanians, and what explains how it got there?
Not trying be racist just want explain for these questions

LABERIA
24-07-17, 19:23
Thanks for posting, I have question since you know a lot.
How much Slavic Admixture exists in modern Albanians, and what explains how it got there?
Not trying be racist just want explain for these questions

Excuse me, not trying to be offensive but your question sounds stupid:

One more thing, unfortunately for you Illyrian Albanians, you mix with Fyrom Slavs during these invasions you just referenced.

The proof is Albanian ethnogenesis with excess of double digits (10% or more) I2A-DIN (Slavic) and R1A (Slavic) of each.

Sile
24-07-17, 19:49
I was always wondering about origin of word Albanian, since Albanian do not use that name for them. Only possible connection should be with Caucasian Albania. As I know Ottoman Empire relocated many Caucasian people after lost war with Russia on territory of today Greece, Albania and Kosovo in order to increase Muslim population in that region. Those people were belonging to different nations as Circassian, Chechens, Ingush, Abkhaz and many others. During the time all those refugees became Albanized. I believe that those people left name to Albania, based on their homeland. Some of final non Albanized Cherkez were relocated to Russian federation after was in Kosovo by their own request.It will be intersting to study genetic contribution of Caucasians to current Albanian population. I think they significantly increased distribution of J2 haplogroup in the region. Another much bigger contribution of J2 haplogroup of current Albanians comes from heavy assimilated Aromanian people.Also I believe that higher concentration of Rb haplogroup in Albanians are not related to Celts, but with recent migration of Cumans to Balkan which left Eurasian steppe trying to avoid annihilation from Mongols. And finally E1V13 haplogroup is probably connected with Pelasgians and not with Thracians or Illirians. So Albanians are mixture of different people, like any other nation from Balkan.

If you know where the pelasgians are from, then we could check.

There are basically 3 theories , not counting the illyrian one, since Illyrians are first recorded in the eastern alps/Noricum 1000 years earlier than in modern montenegro. The Illyrians have very little marker E , something the Albanians have a lot of

1 - Bulgarian and Romanian scholars state the albanians came from the Carpi tribe of the southern carpathian mountains and they retained a dialect of Dacian before Dacian turned to latin language .......................IMO, doubtful

2 - The came from the southern caucasus.................but most markers came from southern caucasus or anywhere north of the Zargos mountain range ( except marker E )

3- The Albanians are descendants of the Dardanians of modern Kosovo, the Dardanians are neither thracian nor illyrian nor paeonian nor macedonian......but the Romans recognised them as a separate identity even into the AD times, actually having an area for them...........the possibility is that these dardanians moved over time from modern kosovo in a SW direction avoiding the coming of either Goths or later slavs

LABERIA
24-07-17, 19:54
The difference in Arberesh is that never settle in Albania,
After Maniakis death they migrated to modern Albania from Italy, they revolt and they moved to Peloponese, (around 1040-1100 AD)
where they were forced to leave by Turkish admiral Barbaros,
1) Can you quote a single source to prove this your personal theory that Arberesh never settled in Albania? Bec ause from History we know that Arberesh are Albanians who migrated mostly from South, Central Albania in Italy. Also is recorded that some Albanians from Greece joined this Albanian diaspora. This are the Arbereshe.
20 Can you quote a source to prove your theory that Barbarossa( i think you are reffering to him when you say:by Turkish admiral Barbaros) expelled this people from Peloponnese?

LABERIA
24-07-17, 19:56
Tosk is after Tosco (Tocca) Italian family.

Do you have a source to support this link between Tosk and Tosco (Tocca) Italian family?
And also, who was this Tosco (Tocca) Italian family?

LABERIA
24-07-17, 20:00
and again Albanian is Boring./

E-V13 has only 1 diversity in Albania
Paternal Diversity in Greece, and younger Mutation in Bosnia,

SINCE YOU ARE A GENNETIST WHAT THAT MEANS?

Cypriots have E Hg that you would envy,

Greece has also E-V13 but more diversities than ALbanian

YOU ARE SO MANY REPEATED,
THAT IS BORING AND DOES NOT MAKE LAUGH ANYMORE<
TRY ANOTHER JOKE.
LIKE WHY ARVANITES AND ARBERESH HAVE LOWER E-V13 THAN KOSSOVO, AND WHY MOESIAN VLACHS HAVE HIGH E_V13?

Tell me
how much far is Spain where E was found and what cluster and DYS, comparing with Konya E Hg?

Want More?
How old ddo you believe is I Hg in Balkans,?

Come on boy explain to us?

Or your Generals in Albanian propaganda office do not tell you?

Come on,

Is it coincidenece that in Original Arberesh the primary Village was Maniaki? after who took that name?
was Maniaki an Albanian?

YOU GUYS ARE BORING.

you put Original Arberesh in the same position of All Albanians that migrate to Italy,

Tell us Bektashi,
Did you made a DNA Test?
or you just join the Forum to make Propaganda?

in Sesklo G2a is Found at a time aproximately 3500 BC.

what E-v13 Neolithic?
where is found in Spain?
So Albanians are Neolithic Iberians?
Cause your Logic proves that?

Now go back to Turkey to find your ancestors.

Where is this village Maniaki?

LABERIA
24-07-17, 20:05
There are basically 3 theories , not counting the illyrian one, since Illyrians are first recorded in the eastern alps/Noricum 1000 years earlier than in modern montenegro. The Illyrians have very little marker E , something the Albanians have a lot of

1 - Bulgarian and Romanian scholars state the albanians came from the Carpi tribe of the southern carpathian mountains and they retained a dialect of Dacian before Dacian turned to latin language .......................IMO, doubtful
Interesting. And who are this Romanian Bulgarian scholars?


2 - The came from the southern caucasus.................but most markers came from southern caucasus or anywhere north of the Zargos mountain range ( except marker E )
Source please?

3- The Albanians are descendants of the Dardanians of modern Kosovo, the Dardanians are neither thracian nor illyrian nor paeonian nor macedonian......but the Romans recognised them as a separate identity even into the AD times, actually having an area for them...........the possibility is that these dardanians moved over time from modern kosovo in a SW direction avoiding the coming of either Goths or later slavs

Source please?

Kingslav
24-07-17, 20:11
Excuse me, not trying to be offensive but your question sounds stupid:

I take no offence, I discussed with you these question, you are reluctant to provide real proof, you have been dodging the tough question.

LABERIA
24-07-17, 20:15
I take no offence, i discussed with you these question, you are reluctant to provide real proof, you have been dodging the tough question.
You are asking proof from me to prove your theory?

Yetos
24-07-17, 20:27
@ Laberia

you can ask Eythymiou
you consider her a very 'big' scientist and Historian

Kingslav
24-07-17, 20:27
You are asking proof from me to prove your theory?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sp7SGRnqJZA

Why she has 22% East Europe, this what I want know. Nothing else

LABERIA
24-07-17, 20:36
@ Laberia

you can ask Eythymiou
you consider her a very 'big' scientist and Historian
I asked you because was you who posted here in Eupedia, not Eythymiou. Do you have an answer to my questions please?

LABERIA
24-07-17, 20:37
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=sp7SGRnqJZA

Why she has 22% East Europe, this what I want know. Nothing else

Excuse me, but we are talking about Albanians here. Do you understand this?

Kingslav
24-07-17, 20:40
Excuse me, but we are talking about Albanians here. Do you understand this?

Watch video, she is Albanian