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jlindop64
31-01-11, 18:20
I am researching my family history and I have found some Dewaeghenaere ancestors, who originated in Ypres, Belgium. Could anyone give me a phonetic pronunciation? I have tried to find this name on a number of Belgian surname sites, without success. Thank you. Jim Lindop.

Reinaert
31-01-11, 20:34
I am researching my family history and I have found some Dewaeghenaere ancestors, who originated in Ypres, Belgium. Could anyone give me a phonetic pronunciation? I have tried to find this name on a number of Belgian surname sites, without success. Thank you. Jim Lindop.

Well.. It's old Dutch.

Dewaeghenaere would be written today like...

De Waagenaare, or variations like De Wagenare.

ae means a longer a, so it's aa.

But the problem is, the English doesn't know the aa sound.

Try to pronounce it as the a in "father", but then longer.. Faather..

The e sounds like the u in "but".

"De" means "The"

I think the name is a profession type name.
Someone who makes a "waag", in English a balance or scale.
A thing to measure the weight of goods.

But be aware that many names are more complex in The Netherlands and Belgium.

Names would be written as in English ... John Robertson The Scalemaker

Like a Dutch admiral.. Michiel Adriaanszoon De Ruyter.

This means Michael, son of Adrian, and he was a cavalry soldier.
The family name that survived was De Ruyter.

Maciamo
31-01-11, 21:38
It means "The Wagoner" (pronounced almost like in English except the "th" and the final -er which is a "-are" as in "you are"). The German equivalent is "Wagner".

jlindop64
01-02-11, 12:45
Dear Reinaert and Maciamo
Regarding my Dewaeghenaere question:
Thank you for your prompt replies. From them. I think that a phonetic pronunciation would be Duh - waa - gon - aar, with the accent on the waa. Do you agree?

Reinaert
01-02-11, 19:24
It means "The Wagoner" (pronounced almost like in English except the "th" and the final -er which is a "-are" as in "you are"). The German equivalent is "Wagner".

You mean someone who makes a car, or wagon?
I have thought of that too, but than the name would rather be
"De Wagenmaker" in Dutch.. In English "wagonmaker".

The end of the name seems to be very old.

.... aar... We see in the Dutch word for a magician.

Toveren = Use magic
Tovenaar = A magician

And bricklayer

Metselen = Lay bricks
Metselaar = Bricklayer.

Maciamo
02-02-11, 10:56
Dear Reinaert and Maciamo
Regarding my Dewaeghenaere question:
Thank you for your prompt replies. From them. I think that a phonetic pronunciation would be Duh - waa - gon - aar, with the accent on the waa. Do you agree?

Yes, except that it is not "gon" but more like "gun".

Maciamo
02-02-11, 10:57
You mean someone who makes a car, or wagon?
I have thought of that too, but than the name would rather be
"De Wagenmaker" in Dutch.. In English "wagonmaker".

That's a variation following the German pattern. Do you know any people named Wagonmaker ? There are Nagelmakers and Schoemakers but never heard of Wagonmakers.

MOESAN
24-01-12, 22:52
Dear Reinaert and Maciamo
Regarding my Dewaeghenaere question:
Thank you for your prompt replies. From them. I think that a phonetic pronunciation would be Duh - waa - gon - aar, with the accent on the waa. Do you agree?

/də 'wɑ:ɣə,nɑ.r/ I think - but /w/ can be bilabial /v/ as in dutch ? (not labiodental /v/)

for the meaning I don't know : wagoner ? cart (wain?) driver or cart maker ??? see the french charretier (FN chartier) and charron , carron ( wheelmaker )

Sennevini
25-01-12, 00:44
I, as native Dutch speaker, pronounce it as follows:

[də 'ʋa:ɣə.na:rə]

Notice that the <w> in Standard Dutch and most dialects is neither /w/ nor /v/; it is a labiodental approximant; secondly, as it is written, the <e> at the end of the name certainly is pronounced - as schwa.
My /ɣ/ (written: <g> however, as I live in the Randstad, may sound as [x] or more possibly [χ], at least without voice - though that isn't very relevant; note that written "g" in Dutch is a fricative sound and no stop - and "alas" the sound foreigners make fun of.
- Of importance is that the "w" is labiodental, the "g" fricative and the "e" at the end of the word pronounced. Main stress is on "waa".

For linguistic symbols, search for the IPA alphabet; I don't like transcript it in English orthography because that would not do the job :).

MOESAN
27-01-12, 19:47
I, as native Dutch speaker, pronounce it as follows:

[də 'ʋa:ɣə.na:rə]

Notice that the <w> in Standard Dutch and most dialects is neither /w/ nor /v/; it is a labiodental approximant; secondly, as it is written, the <e> at the end of the name certainly is pronounced - as schwa.
My /ɣ/ (written: <g> however, as I live in the Randstad, may sound as [x] or more possibly [χ], at least without voice - though that isn't very relevant; note that written "g" in Dutch is a fricative sound and no stop - and "alas" the sound foreigners make fun of.
- Of importance is that the "w" is labiodental, the "g" fricative and the "e" at the end of the word pronounced. Main stress is on "waa".

For linguistic symbols, search for the IPA alphabet; I don't like transcript it in English orthography because that would not do the job :).

OK my /γ/ is just this fricative dutch sound - for 'w' I had no IPA sign at hand for phoneticians concerning the sound I know but yes the common dutch 'w' is between /w/ and /v/ BUT IT IS NOT A LABIODENTAL (french V or german W): IT IS A BILABIAL (the two lips at work, as was the ancient V in a lot of languages previously and yet today in some countries) -
for the final -E I'm not sure it was pronounced: maybe a remnant of this old half french half dutch spelling in Belgium before the orthographic reform in the Netherlands? when it was -EN it seam to me it was written -EN even if it was pronunced only /ə/ and I know no more if names in -AAR take an ending -EN at the plural??? maybe -S ???

MOESAN
27-01-12, 19:49
You gave us the pronounciation, but it is unreadable on this topic - maybe it would be good copy, cut an paste to have the right symbols in the text?

Sennevini
28-01-12, 14:17
You have a point: see the article "Dutch phonology" at Wikipedia for the <w>; in Standard Dutch, ABOVE the rivers (Waal,Maas (Meuse)), it certainly is mostly a labiodental approximant; note, it is a labiodental APPROXIMANT, which is not a /v/ (labiodental FRICATIVE) nor a /w/. In the south, below rivers, and so in Belgium, you're right, there it is a bilabial approximant. That would suit the name even better, because it is from Ieper (Ypres).


The symbols are not readable? I wrote it all in Word; you mean to paste pictures of the symbols?

MOESAN
10-02-12, 21:07
You have a point: see the article "Dutch phonology" at Wikipedia for the <w>; in Standard Dutch, ABOVE the rivers (Waal,Maas (Meuse)), it certainly is mostly a labiodental approximant; note, it is a labiodental APPROXIMANT, which is not a /v/ (labiodental FRICATIVE) nor a /w/. In the south, below rivers, and so in Belgium, you're right, there it is a bilabial approximant. That would suit the name even better, because it is from Ieper (Ypres).


OK now I can read you phonetic symbols - thanks
I will not dispute with you about pronounciation because I am not native speaker (not speaker at all, I just learned a bit dutch some years ago but I had tape recorders at this time (no more) - but as I am interested in all sorts of dialects, I know there are some variations in pronounciation (when hearing dutch speakers of different parts of the Netherlands, a foreigner like me has sometimes the impression of people from different germanic countries!!!)- I believed that the 'a' was mor in the back very often in colloquial dutch and flemish -
I did not hear french flemish (Westhoek) but I red the 'w' there was closer to the well known english 'w' - I don't know if it is true
goeden avond

The symbols are not readable? I wrote it all in Word; you mean to paste pictures of the symbols?


OK as I said

Selwyn Greenfrith
19-04-12, 04:26
That's a variation following the German pattern. Do you know any people named Wagonmaker ? There are Nagelmakers and Schoemakers but never heard of Wagonmakers.

Same with English lastnames: rather than 'Wagonmaker' it's 'Wainwright' as in: Boatwright, Shipwright, Cheesewright, Arkwright...

Selwyn Greenfrith
19-04-12, 04:30
....Wheelwright, Playwright but more oft Blacksmith, Whitesmith, Goldsmith etc

wonder if 'wright' = 'wroughter' ?