not sure Laz people are actually ancestors to Georgians of today...
there are still Laz people...
The Laz language (ლაზური ნენა, lazuri nena; Georgian: ლაზური ენა, lazuri ena, or ჭანური ენა, č'anuri ena, also chanuri ena; Turkish: Lazca) is a South Caucasian language (also known as Kartvelian language) spoken by the Laz people on the Southeast shore of the Black Sea. It is estimated that there are around 30,000[1] native speakers of Laz in Turkey, in a strip of land extending from Melyat to the Georgian border (officially called Lazistan until 1925), and about 2,000 in Georgia.[1]
...
The Laz people live in a geographic area which they refer to as Lazona (ლაზონა). Today, the entire area is part of the Republic of Turkey. Its history dates back to at least the 6th century B.C. when the first South Caucasian state in the west was the Kingdom of Colchis which covered modern western Georgia and modern Turkish provinces of Trabzon and Rize.
...
The Laz in Georgia are chiefly centered in the country's southwestern autonomous republic of Adjara. The largest Laz villages in Adjara are: Sarpi, Kvariati, Gonio and Makho.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language
I think Laz people were in some still unclear way distantly related to early Slavs..
In Laz language word
Supara means
book
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language
Procopius claims that Slavs were first called
Spori.. some historians did see Spori as corruption of tribal name
Serbs...
tribal name
Sloveni (Slavic people) is derived from word
"slovo" = letter (alphabet letter not mail)
Sorbs (also known as Wends and
Lusatians), small Slavic nation that lives in east Germany, call themselves Serbja, but are by Serbs called
Luzicki Srbi (Lusatian Serbs)
In Sorb language local river in their area is called
Laz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohsa
in Romania river
Laz is tributary of river
Sebis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_River_(Sebiş)
Sebis river is tributary of Crişul Alb and this one of Koros river
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crişul_Alb_River
nearby river is named
Sebes-Koros
Crişul Repede (Romanian Crişul Repede; Hungarian Sebes-Körös) is a river in Bihor county, Crişana, Romania and in southeastern Hungary (Körösvidek).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebes-Körös
Dienekes in his autosomal DNA tests finds that
south Slavs have significant part of DNA shared with
Lezgin people.... I think this is related to
tribal name Laz... tribal name might also be related to
Sarmatian Lazyges...
http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/11/multidimensional-scaling-in-italy.html
Serbs and Croats are by many considered to be originally
Sarmatian tribes...
btw. note this
The Turkish public uses the name "Laz" in a general way to refer to all inhabitants of Turkey's Black Sea provinces east of Samsun, and the word is often associated with certain social stereotypes.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people
Turkey's Black sea coast east of Samsun is area where Paphlagonia Eneti used to live... and later Veneti are considered to be ancestors of Slavic people... as Jordanes claims that early Slavs are of Veneti race....
town Trebizond is in Turkish called Laz
Trabzon (Turkish: Trabzon, Pontic Greek: Τραπεζούντα, Trapezounta, Armenian: Տրապիզոն Trapizon, Ottoman Turkish: طربزون, Laz: ტამტრა Tamtra),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebizond
town Trebinje is in area of original Serbs settlement in Hercegovina in Balkan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebinje
in prehistoric pre-Celtic IE speaking Iberia Lusitani live relatively close to Seurbi..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg
state of Lazica is Colchis..Laz people were one of many tribes living there...
Colchis was inhabited by a number of related but distinct tribes whose settlements lay chiefly along the shore of the Black Sea. The chief of those were the Machelones, Heniochi, Zydretae, Lazi, Chalybes, Tabal/Tibareni/Tubal, Mossynoeci, Macrones, Moschi, Marres, Apsilae, Abasci,[20] Sanigae, Coraxi, Coli, Melanchlaeni, Geloni and Soani (Suani). These tribes differed so completely in language and appearance from the surrounding nations that the ancients provided various theories to account for the phenomenon.
...
The chief towns were Dioscurias or Dioscuris (under the Romans called Sebastopolis, now Sukhumi) on the seaboard of the Euxine, Sarapana (now Shorapani), Phasis (now Poti), Pityus (now Pitsunda), Apsaros (now Gonio), Surium (now Vani), Archaeopolis (now Nokalakevi), Macheiresis, and Cyta or Cutatisium or Aia (now Kutaisi), the traditional birthplace of Medea. Scylax mentions also Mala or Male, which he, in contradiction to other writers, makes the birthplace of Medea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchis
note the interesting town name change from Surium to Vani...
Surium is related to tribal name Serians (and later Serbs) Vani is related to Veni (Finish name for Russians is
Venäläiset) and Veneti
in Turkey Laz people live in close proxmity of
Kurds
variants of Kurdish language are:
Kurmanji (northern parts of Kurdistan)
Sorani (further east and south)
Zaza-Gorani
Hewrami (a variation of Gorani)
one of Sorani dialects is called
Garmiani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorani
manuscript of Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from it...
Seneca speaks of Serians living in Asia, in Caspian highlands, on red sea, and around Danube in Europe...
[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.
Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html
I do count
Kurds (together with Pastun Sarbans) in people whose ancestors are
Serians of Asia , and think of
Serians of Europe as ancestors of
I2a2 Serbs(and also of
Germanic haplogroup I people in much more distant past)... and I think that tribal name Kurds might be of same origin as tribal names Serbs and Sarbans (Pastun tribe that has some haplogrouop I)
Kurds are people who carry some haplogroup I....also island of I2a (I2a2 is most common haplogroup in Serbs and I2a1 in Sardinians) exist in Asia minor and is located among Kurds
Germani tribal name can be traced back to province Kerman of Persia, Iran
Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania", "Kermania", "Germania" and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerman_province
and this is where spread of haplogroup I probably started...
nearby area in Farsi province in Persia is called Sarvestan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarvestan
Farsi province
http://maps.google.com/maps?q=29.26....267233,53.261719&spn=25.913743,46.538086&z=5
Sarvestan is often related to Serbs in iranian theories of Serb origin...
word
Sarve means
cedar(cypress) and in those theories it was about cedar/cypress being holy tree and Serbs getting name as protectors of holy tree....
Slavic people have
oak as holy tree (same as Celtic people)
but interestingly
Srem (known also as
Syrmia with key ancient town being Sirmium) is area in Pannonia split between modern Serbia and Croatia, and its
coat of arms originally contained
cypress tree....
Srem. The third coat of arms is that of Srem, granted in 1747 by Empress Maria Theresa of Austria. The modern Croatian county of Vukovar-Syrmia uses the same coat of arms. The three white stripes on blue, representing the three rivers of Srem: Bosut, Sava and Danube. The deer that is resting on the ground is close to the poplar (topola) green tree. The tree changed though the history. In the original grant the tree was a cypress tree. The modern Croatian design preferred it to make it an oak tree, which is abundant in the region and is a kind of a national symbol. Similarly, poplar is connected to Serbia (the royal family stems from a place named Topola).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Vojvodina
in Serbian version cypress is replaced in modern times with poplar tree because Karadjordje who started uprising against Turks and person from whom Serbian royal family Karadjordjevic origins was elected to be leader of uprising in place called Topola ( = poplar tree)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topola
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oplenac
note that Srem is also in area where
Sarmatian Iazyges lived...
They were divided into freemen and serfs (Sarmatae Limigantes). These serfs had a different manner of life and were probably an older settled population, enslaved by nomadic masters. They rose against them in 34 AD, but were repressed by foreign aid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges
those "
serfs" who are previous people who lived there are Celtic
Scordisci...whose Thracianized version is known as
Serdi.... in my opinion, Scordisci are best candidate for
Serians of Europe as they did
live around Danube...
btw. interesting is to note that in Srem is mountain Fruska gora
The mountain Fruška Gora ("Frankish monuntain" in Serbo-Croatian) got its name after the old Serbo-Croatian name for Frankish people - Fruzi (Frug=Frank, Fruzi=Franks, fruški=Frankish).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrmia
Frug / Fruzi = Frank/Franks makes us wonder about Franks being
Phrygians in origin as is claimed in their theory of origin
Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks developed an origin story to connect themselves with peoples of antiquity. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans.
An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Maeotis, now Sea of Azov, and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late fourth century at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Franks, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks
....
now, back to relation with Germani and Kurds....
Cimmerians are known as Gimmri
The first historical record of the Cimmerians appears in Assyrian annals in the year 714 BC. These describe how a people termed the Gimirri helped the forces of Sargon II to defeat the kingdom of Urartu. Their original homeland, called Gamir or Uishdish, seems to have been located within the buffer state of Mannae. The later geographer Ptolemy placed the Cimmerian city of Gomara in this region. After their conquests of Colchis and Iberia in the First Millennium BC, the Cimmerians also came to be known as Gimirri in Georgian. According to Georgian historians[8], the Cimmerians played an influential role in the development of both the Colchian and Iberian cultures. The modern-day Georgian word for hero, გმირი, gmiri, is derived from the word Gimirri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimerians
Cimmerians are also known as Gomer
Josephus placed Gomer and the "Gomerites" in Anatolian Galatia: "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites."[2] Galatia in fact takes its name from the ancient Gauls (Celts) who settled there. However, the later Christian writer Hippolytus of Rome in c. 234 assigned Gomer as the ancestor of the Cappadocians, neighbours of the Galatians.[3] Jerome (c. 390) and Isidore of Seville (c. 600) followed Josephus' identification of Gomer with the Galatians, Gauls and Celts.
The Hebrew name Gomer is widely considered to refer to the Cimmerians (Akkadian Gimirru, "complete"), who dwelt on the Eurasian Steppes[4] and attacked Assyria in the late 7th century BC. The Assyrians called them Gimmerai ; the Cimmerian king Teushpa was defeated by Assarhadon of Assyria sometime between 681 and 668 BC.[5]
...
According to tractate Yoma, in the Talmud, Gomer is identified as the ancestor of the Gomermians, modern Germans.
....
Three sons of Gomer are mentioned in Genesis 10, namely
Ashkenaz
Riphath (spelled Diphath in I Chronicles)
Togarmah
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer
Japheth is ascribed seven sons: Gomer, Magog, Tiras, Javan, Meshech, Tubal, and Madai.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhet
now, location of Gomer people does match location of Kurds and of I2a
in thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341
I have shown that early Slavs were dominantly I2a2 people
Russian primary chronicle
After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf
Kurdish dance is a group of traditional hand-holding dances similar to those from the Balkans, Lebanon, and to Iraq. It is a form of round dancing, with a single or a couple of figure dancers often added to the geometrical centre of dancing circle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_culture
this is identical circle dance typical for Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolo_(dance)
in Turkish language words for
wolf are
Kurt and Zampara
(from google translate)
similarity of words Kurd/Kurt indicates that Turkish word Kurt might have come to existenc due to Kurds being related to wolf
from thread about origin of Serbs you can see link to wolf also present in relation to Serb, Lech and possibly also original meaning of Veneti tribal name...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367056#post367056
1) Serbs come from land of
Boiki that neighbours Frankia and white Croatia where they also
originally dwellt
http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false
2) Serbs and Croats were there called
'white'
http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false
3)
Vindelici means
'white' in Celtic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici
4)
Boiki, Bavaria, Bohemia - all derived from
Boii tribal name, as
Boii lived there from always
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria
5)
Sorviodurum was town in Bavaria part of Rhaetia on border with Bohemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing
close to it in Bohemia are two places with name
Srby
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Domažlice_District)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plzeň-South_District)
6) early Slavs are of
Veneti race
Jordanes
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html
7) Vindelici probably
Venetic people related to Liburnians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici
8) Chief tribe of Vindelici is
Licates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeum_Alpium
9) word "
Licos", meaning "rock" or "slab". Cognates in modern Celtic languages are Leac (Irish), Llech (Welsh) and
Lec'h (Breton)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_regiments_of_the_Roman_army
10)
Lika is big area in Croatia settled by both Serbs and Croats
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika
11) eponymous ancestor of Poles is
Lech
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech,_Czech_and_Rus
12)leader of
Cimbri is
Boiorix (ruler of Boii)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri
13) leader of
Licyans is
Sarpedon (ruler of Sarpes?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia
14) national animal that represents
Serbs is
wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia
15)
Lycia is related to
wolves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto
16)
Veneti tribal name might origin from word
wolf
as Pictish tribe
"Venicones" = wolves / hunting dogs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venicones
The origin of the name Cimbri is unknown. One etymology[6] is PIE *tḱim-ro- "inhabitant", from tḱoi-m- "home" (> Eng. home), itself a derivation from tḱei- "live" (> Greek κτίζω, Latin sinō); then, the Germanic *χimbra- finds an exact cognate in Slavic sębrъ "farmer" (> Croatian, Serbian sebar, Russ. sjabër).
Because of the similarity of the names, the Cimbri were at times associated with Cymry, the Welsh name for themselves.[7] However, this word is generally derived from Celtic *Kombroges, meaning compatriots,[8] and it is hardly conceivable that the Romans would have recorded such a form as Cimbri.[9] The name has also been related to the word kimme meaning "rim", i.e. the people of the coast,.[10] Finally, since Antiquity, the name has been related to that of the Cimmerians.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri
in the end, Thraco-Cimmerians are found on locations above Black sea, on north shores of Carpatians but also locations of Scordisci along Danube, and direction of Thraco-Cimerrians spread is visible towards Cimbri areas in Denmark... they are also found in area of lower Danube that matches Tribali tribes... curiously Serbs were identified with Tribali in Byzantine sources...
Triballi
Scordisci
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_94.html
Thraco-Cimmerians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians
Thraco-Cimmerians do show very good correlation with spread of early Slavs
both thraco-Cimmerians and early Slavs show correlation in spread with I2a2 ...
and interestingly those are also areas of earlier neolithic western linear pottery