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foryouandme
10-02-11, 01:48
hello everyone i'm new here not sure which forum to post this in

i've been trying to search for the origins of this ancient ethnic group from the Caucasus but it seems that nobody really knows where they came from before they lived in the Caucasus and I would like to know if any y-dna and mtdna has actually been done. if anyone knows i'd much appreciate it.

archaiocapilos
19-03-11, 18:29
I would apreciate it too my friend because I'm of half Pontic Greek origin and I think that Pontic Greeks are a mix of Greeks,Armenians and aboriginal Pontians(Caucones/Kashka) who probably were close to some modern Georgians especialy Laz.

how yes no 2
19-03-11, 22:22
not sure Laz people are actually ancestors to Georgians of today...
there are still Laz people...


The Laz language (ლაზური ნენა, lazuri nena; Georgian: ლაზური ენა, lazuri ena, or ჭანური ენა, č'anuri ena, also chanuri ena; Turkish: Lazca) is a South Caucasian language (also known as Kartvelian language) spoken by the Laz people on the Southeast shore of the Black Sea. It is estimated that there are around 30,000[1] native speakers of Laz in Turkey, in a strip of land extending from Melyat to the Georgian border (officially called Lazistan until 1925), and about 2,000 in Georgia.[1]
...
The Laz people live in a geographic area which they refer to as Lazona (ლაზონა). Today, the entire area is part of the Republic of Turkey. Its history dates back to at least the 6th century B.C. when the first South Caucasian state in the west was the Kingdom of Colchis which covered modern western Georgia and modern Turkish provinces of Trabzon and Rize.
...
The Laz in Georgia are chiefly centered in the country's southwestern autonomous republic of Adjara. The largest Laz villages in Adjara are: Sarpi, Kvariati, Gonio and Makho.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language

I think Laz people were in some still unclear way distantly related to early Slavs..

In Laz language word Supara means book
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language

Procopius claims that Slavs were first called Spori.. some historians did see Spori as corruption of tribal name Serbs...
tribal name Sloveni (Slavic people) is derived from word "slovo" = letter (alphabet letter not mail)


Sorbs (also known as Wends and Lusatians), small Slavic nation that lives in east Germany, call themselves Serbja, but are by Serbs called Luzicki Srbi (Lusatian Serbs)

In Sorb language local river in their area is called Laz
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lohsa

in Romania river Laz is tributary of river Sebis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_River_(Sebi%C5%9F)

Sebis river is tributary of Crişul Alb and this one of Koros river
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cri%C5%9Ful_Alb_River

nearby river is named Sebes-Koros

Crişul Repede (Romanian Crişul Repede; Hungarian Sebes-Körös) is a river in Bihor county, Crişana, Romania and in southeastern Hungary (Körösvidek).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sebes-K%C3%B6r%C3%B6s



Dienekes in his autosomal DNA tests finds that south Slavs have significant part of DNA shared with Lezgin people.... I think this is related to tribal name Laz... tribal name might also be related to Sarmatian Lazyges...

http://dodecad.blogspot.com/2010/11/multidimensional-scaling-in-italy.html

Serbs and Croats are by many considered to be originally Sarmatian tribes...

btw. note this

The Turkish public uses the name "Laz" in a general way to refer to all inhabitants of Turkey's Black Sea provinces east of Samsun, and the word is often associated with certain social stereotypes.[
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_people

Turkey's Black sea coast east of Samsun is area where Paphlagonia Eneti used to live... and later Veneti are considered to be ancestors of Slavic people... as Jordanes claims that early Slavs are of Veneti race....

town Trebizond is in Turkish called Laz

Trabzon (Turkish: Trabzon, Pontic Greek: Τραπεζούντα, Trapezounta, Armenian: Տրապիզոն Trapizon, Ottoman Turkish: طربزون, Laz: ტამტრა Tamtra),
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebizond

town Trebinje is in area of original Serbs settlement in Hercegovina in Balkan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trebinje

in prehistoric pre-Celtic IE speaking Iberia Lusitani live relatively close to Seurbi..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg

state of Lazica is Colchis..Laz people were one of many tribes living there...


Colchis was inhabited by a number of related but distinct tribes whose settlements lay chiefly along the shore of the Black Sea. The chief of those were the Machelones, Heniochi, Zydretae, Lazi, Chalybes, Tabal/Tibareni/Tubal, Mossynoeci, Macrones, Moschi, Marres, Apsilae, Abasci,[20] Sanigae, Coraxi, Coli, Melanchlaeni, Geloni and Soani (Suani). These tribes differed so completely in language and appearance from the surrounding nations that the ancients provided various theories to account for the phenomenon.
...
The chief towns were Dioscurias or Dioscuris (under the Romans called Sebastopolis, now Sukhumi) on the seaboard of the Euxine, Sarapana (now Shorapani), Phasis (now Poti), Pityus (now Pitsunda), Apsaros (now Gonio), Surium (now Vani), Archaeopolis (now Nokalakevi), Macheiresis, and Cyta or Cutatisium or Aia (now Kutaisi), the traditional birthplace of Medea. Scylax mentions also Mala or Male, which he, in contradiction to other writers, makes the birthplace of Medea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colchis

note the interesting town name change from Surium to Vani...
Surium is related to tribal name Serians (and later Serbs) Vani is related to Veni (Finish name for Russians is Venäläiset) and Veneti

in Turkey Laz people live in close proxmity of Kurds

variants of Kurdish language are:
Kurmanji (northern parts of Kurdistan)
Sorani (further east and south)
Zaza-Gorani
Hewrami (a variation of Gorani)

one of Sorani dialects is called Garmiani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorani

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/49/Dialects.jpg

manuscript of Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from it...

Seneca speaks of Serians living in Asia, in Caspian highlands, on red sea, and around Danube in Europe...


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html



I do count Kurds (together with Pastun Sarbans) in people whose ancestors are Serians of Asia , and think of Serians of Europe as ancestors of I2a2 Serbs(and also of Germanic haplogroup I people in much more distant past)... and I think that tribal name Kurds might be of same origin as tribal names Serbs and Sarbans (Pastun tribe that has some haplogrouop I)

Kurds are people who carry some haplogroup I....also island of I2a (I2a2 is most common haplogroup in Serbs and I2a1 in Sardinians) exist in Asia minor and is located among Kurds

Germani tribal name can be traced back to province Kerman of Persia, Iran

Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania", "Kermania", "Germania" and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerman_province

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/6d/Locator_map_Iran_Kerman_Province.png/250px-Locator_map_Iran_Kerman_Province.png

and this is where spread of haplogroup I probably started...

http://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png


nearby area in Farsi province in Persia is called Sarvestan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarvestan

Farsi province
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f3/Locator_map_Iran_Fars_Province.png/250px-Locator_map_Iran_Fars_Province.png

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=29.266667,53.233333&ie=UTF8&ll=29.267233,53.261719&spn=25.913743,46.538086&z=5

Sarvestan is often related to Serbs in iranian theories of Serb origin...
word Sarve means cedar(cypress) and in those theories it was about cedar/cypress being holy tree and Serbs getting name as protectors of holy tree....

Slavic people have oak as holy tree (same as Celtic people)
but interestingly Srem (known also as Syrmia with key ancient town being Sirmium) is area in Pannonia split between modern Serbia and Croatia, and its coat of arms originally contained cypress tree....


Srem. The third coat of arms is that of Srem, granted in 1747 by Empress Maria Theresa of Austria. The modern Croatian county of Vukovar-Syrmia uses the same coat of arms. The three white stripes on blue, representing the three rivers of Srem: Bosut, Sava and Danube. The deer that is resting on the ground is close to the poplar (topola) green tree. The tree changed though the history. In the original grant the tree was a cypress tree. The modern Croatian design preferred it to make it an oak tree, which is abundant in the region and is a kind of a national symbol. Similarly, poplar is connected to Serbia (the royal family stems from a place named Topola).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_of_arms_of_Vojvodina

in Serbian version cypress is replaced in modern times with poplar tree because Karadjordje who started uprising against Turks and person from whom Serbian royal family Karadjordjevic origins was elected to be leader of uprising in place called Topola ( = poplar tree)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Topola
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oplenac

note that Srem is also in area where Sarmatian Iazyges lived...


They were divided into freemen and serfs (Sarmatae Limigantes). These serfs had a different manner of life and were probably an older settled population, enslaved by nomadic masters. They rose against them in 34 AD, but were repressed by foreign aid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iazyges

those "serfs" who are previous people who lived there are Celtic Scordisci...whose Thracianized version is known as Serdi.... in my opinion, Scordisci are best candidate for Serians of Europe as they did live around Danube...

btw. interesting is to note that in Srem is mountain Fruska gora

The mountain Fruška Gora ("Frankish monuntain" in Serbo-Croatian) got its name after the old Serbo-Croatian name for Frankish people - Fruzi (Frug=Frank, Fruzi=Franks, fruški=Frankish).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrmia

Frug / Fruzi = Frank/Franks makes us wonder about Franks being Phrygians in origin as is claimed in their theory of origin


Like many Germanic peoples, the Franks developed an origin story to connect themselves with peoples of antiquity. In the case of the Franks, these peoples were the Sicambri and the Trojans.
An anonymous work of 727 called Liber Historiae Francorum states that following the fall of Troy, 12,000 Trojans led by chiefs Priam and Antenor moved to the Tanais (Don) river, settled in Pannonia near the Maeotis, now Sea of Azov, and founded a city called "Sicambria". In just two generations (Priam and his son Marcomer) from the fall of Troy (by modern scholars dated in the late Bronze Age) they arrive in the late fourth century at the Rhine. An earlier variation of this story can be read in Fredegar. In Fredegar's version an early king named Francio serves as namegiver for the Franks, just as Romulus has lent his name to Rome.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franks


....

now, back to relation with Germani and Kurds....

Cimmerians are known as Gimmri


The first historical record of the Cimmerians appears in Assyrian annals in the year 714 BC. These describe how a people termed the Gimirri helped the forces of Sargon II to defeat the kingdom of Urartu. Their original homeland, called Gamir or Uishdish, seems to have been located within the buffer state of Mannae. The later geographer Ptolemy placed the Cimmerian city of Gomara in this region. After their conquests of Colchis and Iberia in the First Millennium BC, the Cimmerians also came to be known as Gimirri in Georgian. According to Georgian historians[8], the Cimmerians played an influential role in the development of both the Colchian and Iberian cultures. The modern-day Georgian word for hero, გმირი, gmiri, is derived from the word Gimirri.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimerians

Cimmerians are also known as Gomer


Josephus placed Gomer and the "Gomerites" in Anatolian Galatia: "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites."[2] Galatia in fact takes its name from the ancient Gauls (Celts) who settled there. However, the later Christian writer Hippolytus of Rome in c. 234 assigned Gomer as the ancestor of the Cappadocians, neighbours of the Galatians.[3] Jerome (c. 390) and Isidore of Seville (c. 600) followed Josephus' identification of Gomer with the Galatians, Gauls and Celts.
The Hebrew name Gomer is widely considered to refer to the Cimmerians (Akkadian Gimirru, "complete"), who dwelt on the Eurasian Steppes[4] and attacked Assyria in the late 7th century BC. The Assyrians called them Gimmerai ; the Cimmerian king Teushpa was defeated by Assarhadon of Assyria sometime between 681 and 668 BC.[5]
...
According to tractate Yoma, in the Talmud, Gomer is identified as the ancestor of the Gomermians, modern Germans.
....
Three sons of Gomer are mentioned in Genesis 10, namely
Ashkenaz
Riphath (spelled Diphath in I Chronicles)
Togarmah

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer


Japheth is ascribed seven sons: Gomer, Magog, Tiras, Javan, Meshech, Tubal, and Madai.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japhet

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Noahsworld_map.png/402px-Noahsworld_map.png

now, location of Gomer people does match location of Kurds and of I2a
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

in thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341
I have shown that early Slavs were dominantly I2a2 people

Russian primary chronicle

After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf



Kurdish dance is a group of traditional hand-holding dances similar to those from the Balkans, Lebanon, and to Iraq. It is a form of round dancing, with a single or a couple of figure dancers often added to the geometrical centre of dancing circle.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurdish_culture

this is identical circle dance typical for Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolo_(dance)


in Turkish language words for wolf are Kurt and Zampara
(from google translate)

similarity of words Kurd/Kurt indicates that Turkish word Kurt might have come to existenc due to Kurds being related to wolf

from thread about origin of Serbs you can see link to wolf also present in relation to Serb, Lech and possibly also original meaning of Veneti tribal name...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367056#post367056



1) Serbs come from land of Boiki that neighbours Frankia and white Croatia where they also originally dwellt
http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&ots=7ud7kwEY7r&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

2) Serbs and Croats were there called 'white'
http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&ots=7ud7kwEY7r&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

3) Vindelici means 'white' in Celtic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici

4) Boiki, Bavaria, Bohemia - all derived from Boii tribal name, as Boii lived there from always
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bohemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bavaria

5) Sorviodurum was town in Bavaria part of Rhaetia on border with Bohemia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing

close to it in Bohemia are two places with name Srby
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Doma%C5%BElice_District)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plze%C5%88-South_District)


6) early Slavs are of Veneti race
Jordanes
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

7) Vindelici probably Venetic people related to Liburnians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelici


8) Chief tribe of Vindelici is Licates
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tropaeum_Alpium

9) word "Licos", meaning "rock" or "slab". Cognates in modern Celtic languages are Leac (Irish), Llech (Welsh) and Lec'h (Breton)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpine_regiments_of_the_Roman_army

10) Lika is big area in Croatia settled by both Serbs and Croats
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lika

11) eponymous ancestor of Poles is Lech
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lech,_Czech_and_Rus



12)leader of Cimbri is Boiorix (ruler of Boii)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

13) leader of Licyans is Sarpedon (ruler of Sarpes?)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lycia



14) national animal that represents Serbs is wolf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia

15) Lycia is related to wolves
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto

16) Veneti tribal name might origin from word wolf
as Pictish tribe "Venicones" = wolves / hunting dogs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venicones



The origin of the name Cimbri is unknown. One etymology[6] is PIE *tḱim-ro- "inhabitant", from tḱoi-m- "home" (> Eng. home), itself a derivation from tḱei- "live" (> Greek κτίζω, Latin sinō); then, the Germanic *χimbra- finds an exact cognate in Slavic sębrъ "farmer" (> Croatian, Serbian sebar, Russ. sjabër).
Because of the similarity of the names, the Cimbri were at times associated with Cymry, the Welsh name for themselves.[7] However, this word is generally derived from Celtic *Kombroges, meaning compatriots,[8] and it is hardly conceivable that the Romans would have recorded such a form as Cimbri.[9] The name has also been related to the word kimme meaning "rim", i.e. the people of the coast,.[10] Finally, since Antiquity, the name has been related to that of the Cimmerians.[11]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cimbri

in the end, Thraco-Cimmerians are found on locations above Black sea, on north shores of Carpatians but also locations of Scordisci along Danube, and direction of Thraco-Cimerrians spread is visible towards Cimbri areas in Denmark... they are also found in area of lower Danube that matches Tribali tribes... curiously Serbs were identified with Tribali in Byzantine sources...

Triballi

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Triballi_territory.jpg/250px-Triballi_territory.jpg

Scordisci

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/16/Celts_in_Illyria_%26_Pannonia.png

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_94.jpg
http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1/entity_94.html

Thraco-Cimmerians

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

Thraco-Cimmerians do show very good correlation with spread of early Slavs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png

both thraco-Cimmerians and early Slavs show correlation in spread with I2a2 ...
and interestingly those are also areas of earlier neolithic western linear pottery

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

how yes no 2
19-03-11, 22:37
I would apreciate it too my friend because I'm of half Pontic Greek origin and I think that Pontic Greeks are a mix of Greeks,Armenians and aboriginal Pontians(Caucones/Kashka) who probably were close to some modern Georgians especialy Laz.


Dancing in a circle is an ancient tradition common to many cultures for marking special occasions, strengthening community and encouraging togetherness. The circle is probably the oldest known dance formation. It is found even today in the community dances of many cultures, including Greek (Greek dances surviving from ancient Greece (chorea)), African, Eastern European, Israeli (see Jewish dance and Israeli folk dancing), Serbian, Irish Celtic, Breton , Catalan(sardana), South American and North American Indian. It is also used, in its more meditative form, in worship within various religious traditions, including, for example, the Church of England and other Anglican Churches[1][2][3][4][5][6][7] and the Islamic Haḍra dances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Circle_dance

hm, Breton dance...
now, in Britanny lived Celtic Veneti...
hm, Sardana dance...


Kochari (Armenian: Քոչարի; Azerbaijani: Köçəri; Greek: Κότσαρι), is an old folk dance, danced today by Turks, Azerbaijanis, Armenians, Assyrians, Pontic Greeks and Kurds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotsari

how yes no 2
19-03-11, 23:53
one couriosity considering that province Kerman/Germania was meaning bravery/combat and Gimmri (Gomer/Cimmerians) meant hero in Georgian and that ancient Gomer people were thus known as war people, is that dance of India that was in ancient times used to energize warriors in battle is called Ghumura
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nX_UAy3WBoY


As per Mahabharat, Ghumura was being used by both Gods and Goddesses as a musical instrument during war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghumura_Dance

I will not claim that Gomer were Aryans of ancient India because I think that Aryans were J2 people
(see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26093)
while Gomer were haplogroup I people... and IJ times were I guess long before Aryans... but there is clear relation between word Gomer and war, bravery... that stretches all the way to east part of India...

foryouandme
18-04-11, 18:23
thanks for the replies. i didn't expect anyone to answer this thread because the origin of the laz seem pretty much a mystery. i'm guessing that, though i maybe completetely wrong, that they may have came from africa or the middle east (very ancient inhabited places on earth) before settling in the colchis, that's if you can go by herodotus' theory. i may add that i find laz music sounds a bit like celtic music, bagpipes for example, and that the celts may have originated from the caucasus.

how yes no 2
19-04-11, 23:05
i may add that i find laz music sounds a bit like celtic music, bagpipes for example, and that the celts may have originated from the caucasus.

that makes sense actually...
R1b YDNA haplogroup is often assumed to be dominant haplogroup carried by Celts...
R1b1b2 did spread to Europe from Anatolia and my assumption is that it was during ice age in area of north Anatolia and Caucasus and later moved to west Anatolia where it was for long time (as indicated by high variance) and then moved to Thrace, and from Thrace to Italy, Spain, France, Germany...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26361-R1b-U152-map&p=370687&viewfull=1#post370687

Is there any data about genetics of Laz people?

foryouandme
29-04-11, 00:15
Is there any data about genetics of Laz people?

i wish i knew

Selim
04-10-11, 19:02
I'll go with the traditional point of view;they are close relatives of Georgians.
I believe not only those little group,but also both Pontic Greeks and Turks descend from ancient Kolhis;forefather of Lazs.

According to Strabon poeple or Trabzon(Capitol of Pontos)are originally Colhi(Laz) that adopted the Greek language,he names them as ''Laso''.
All Greeks and Turks of the area are almost identical to Laz people.

Kardu
05-10-11, 11:40
Laz speak an ancient language related to Georgian. In Georgia proper we have Mingrelian/Megrelian language which is very similar to Laz. Laz has simply many Turkish loan words unlike Megrelian as their lands went under Turkish dominion 500 years ago.

Laz are indeed considered to be descendants of Colchians. As their country Lazika was on the territories where Colchida was before.
We have DNA data of some Megrelians and mostly they are R1b and J1*. I expect this to be the case of Laz people too.

Kardu
05-10-11, 11:52
Forgot to mention, Laz and Megrelians are mostly blond or dark blond (sometimes redhair) and have blue or gray eyes.

Kardu
05-10-11, 12:20
@ how yes and no

According to Pliny the Elder there were several Colchian cities on Balkans. If any connection you mention is right it would be Laz/Colchian expansion to Balkans not vice versa.

Kardu
05-10-11, 12:46
You can check this paper about Anatolian DNA from 2004. http://hpgl.stanford.edu/publications/HG_2004_v114_p127-148.pdf
Here is the data from Artvin and Rize are which is predominantly Laz, although we don't know if the people tested were actually Laz.

C3-M217- 1
E3b1-M78 - 2
E3b3-M123 - 4
G1a-P20 - 4
G1*-M342 - 1
G2*-P15 - 6
G2a-P16 - 1
I*-M170 -1
I1b*-P37 - 1
J1*-M267 - 8
J2*-M172 - 8
J2d-M158 - 1
J2e*-M12 - 1
J2f1-M92 - 1
J2f*-M67 - 5
K2-M70 - 2
L*-M11 - 9
N*-M231 - 5
O3-M122 - 1
Q*-M242 - 1
R1a1-M17 - 4
R1b3-M269 - 8
R1b2-M73 - 1
R1b4-M335 - 1
R1c-M343 - 1

kazanci
16-11-11, 20:46
Hello foryouandme, I just read one research about laz/megrels people. They are almost 50% G2a. In my region (Trabzon in Turkey), the pontic speaking upper towns are also belonging to same haplogroup (Most probably local kolhis people helenized during Greek colonization). Unfortunatelly, we have very limited number of samples. If you are related laz people, you are more than welcome to join my group at Familytree DNA.

sparkey
16-11-11, 21:04
I*-M170 -1
I1b*-P37 - 1

A note on these now that this thread has been bumped: the latter is now I2a1, and is probably I2a-Din if Eastern European in origin or I2a1a if Western European in origin, probably a recent introduction either way, unless it's a haplotype we've never gotten STRs for. The former has the highest chance of being I1 (at which point it could be Gothic), I2a2-Cont3 (at which point it is relatively ancient, Eastern European in origin), or I2c-B (at which point it is from the same unknown, probably seafaring source as Armenian I2c-B)... I2c-B is my guess. Here's to hoping that future studies will give us better pictures of where in the I tree Asian I is located, so that we can better understand backmigrations from Europe to Asia.

Kardu
16-11-11, 21:27
or I2c-B (at which point it is from the same unknown, probably seafaring source as Armenian I2c-B)... I2c-B is my guess. Here's to hoping that future studies will give us better pictures of where in the I tree Asian I is located, so that we can better understand backmigrations from Europe to Asia.
I think I2c - Armenian link is bit exaggerated and based simply on the fact that way more Armenians have been tested so far than all the other Caucasians together. Let's wait for more results to come in.

kazanci
16-11-11, 21:31
Kardu (about laz people genetics), your data is belong to Cinnioglu paper (Published with a group from Stanford University). He divided Turkey upto geographical regions (How we study in the schools), so the data given by Cinnioglu, represents the whole Blacksea region (central north and north-east of Turkey) not just artvin and Rize. You can not take this data as Laz people genetics (I do not remember he mentioned about any cities).

Kardu
16-11-11, 21:34
Kardu (about laz people genetics), your data is belong to Cinnioglu paper (Published with a group from Stanford University). He divided Turkey upto geographical regions (How we study in the schools), so the data given by Cinnioglu, represents the whole Blacksea region (central north and north-east of Turkey) not just artvin and Rize. You can not take this data as Laz people genetics (I do not remember he mentioned about any cities).
Thanks for the comment. Yes, I agree.

Alan
16-11-11, 22:09
R1c-M343 - 1

R1c serious?

Kardu
16-11-11, 22:18
R1c serious? It's used in the paper, I guess they mean R1b*

kazanci
16-11-11, 22:26
Cinnioglu paper is quite old now (2004). Yes r1c is r1b* now.

foryouandme
20-11-11, 00:54
Hello foryouandme, I just read one research about laz/megrels people. They are almost 50% G2a. In my region (Trabzon in Turkey), the pontic speaking upper towns are also belonging to same haplogroup (Most probably local kolhis people helenized during Greek colonization). Unfortunatelly, we have very limited number of samples. If you are related laz people, you are more than welcome to join my group at Familytree DNA.

Thanks, but, unfortunately, I'm not Lazuri. A friend of mine is, he's from Batumi, Georgia. I think we need Lazuri members to help us with this.

Kardu
20-11-11, 01:11
Thanks, but, unfortunately, I'm not Lazuri. A friend of mine is, he's from Batumi, Georgia. I think we need Lazuri members to help us with this. You can advise him to take a DNA test :)

foryouandme
20-11-11, 02:29
You can advise him to take a DNA test :)

I don't know about, it may seem a bit of a cheek of me asking.

foryouandme
23-05-12, 14:52
You can advise him to take a DNA test :)

Well, Kardu I did take your advice and suggested to him about a DNA test. He said he'd be interested. :smile:

foryouandme
23-05-12, 15:17
Oh, by the way I came across some quite interesting stuff about Colchians

http://www.blackfoal.com/

http://www.google.co.uk/search?q=colchians&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&source=hp&channel=np

Kardu
27-05-12, 16:06
Well, Kardu I did take your advice and suggested to him about a DNA test. He said he'd be interested. :smile:

Good to know :)

And thanks for the interesting links.

BTW few months ago 30 Laz and 30 Georgians were tested. I can't reveal the full results yet before the the article is published, but unexpectedly there was a high number of haplogroup L1b among the Laz.

Yetos
27-05-12, 22:13
Good to know :)

And thanks for the interesting links.

BTW few months ago 30 Laz and 30 Georgians were tested. I can't reveal the full results yet before the the article is published, but unexpectedly there was a high number of haplogroup L1b among the Laz.

It would be very interesting to see results,
Laz area for me has extra weight in theories of IE origin

Kardu
27-05-12, 23:41
It would be very interesting to see results,
Laz area for me has extra weight in theories of IE origin

Yes, wider results from that area might shed some light on many pending issues. Although so far available Georgian/Laz data pose more questions than provide answers :)

Alan
28-05-12, 01:11
Good to know :)

And thanks for the interesting links.

BTW few months ago 30 Laz and 30 Georgians were tested. I can't reveal the full results yet before the the article is published, but unexpectedly there was a high number of haplogroup L1b among the Laz.
I heard similar things about them. That they got high numbers of Haplogroup L1b is somehow interesting, considering that many of them tend to be quite pale and brown/red/blond haired.

Another interesting thing that I have observed is, that the Haplogroups J(J1/J2) and R1b have some correlation in West Asia.

Kardu
28-05-12, 11:56
I heard similar things about them. That they got high numbers of Haplogroup L1b is somehow interesting, considering that many of them tend to be quite pale and brown/red/blond haired.

Another interesting thing that I have observed is, that the Haplogroups J(J1/J2) and R1b have some correlation in West Asia. Probably we are dealing with an ancient admixture here, supposedly from Elamite refugees/colonists. Georgian (and Kartvelian languages in general) has certain loanwords from Elamite.

foryouandme
31-05-12, 19:10
Good to know :)

And thanks for the interesting links.

BTW few months ago 30 Laz and 30 Georgians were tested. I can't reveal the full results yet before the the article is published, but unexpectedly there was a high number of haplogroup L1b among the Laz.

L1b? Do you mean Y-DNA or mtDNA?

Kardu
03-06-12, 00:08
L1b? Do you mean Y-DNA or mtDNA?
Y-DNA L1b of course :)

foryouandme
17-08-12, 00:27
Y-DNA L1b of course :)

"Of course"? Well, both are and would be fascinatingly surprising. :)

Kardu
17-08-12, 00:44
"Of course"? Well, both are and would be fascinatingly surprising. :)

BTW Gedmatch already has Laz as a reference population, so whoever has autosomal results can check his ancestry in reference to Laz :)

foryouandme
30-08-12, 17:03
I found another interesting link about Georgian genetics:

http://www.khazaria.com/genetics/georgians.html

Kardu
30-08-12, 20:27
Interesting site, although the data are already bit outdated.
By the end of the year we will have a comprehensive new YDNA data from almost all regions of Georgia.

foryouandme
22-09-12, 20:02
Interesting site, although the data are already bit outdated.
By the end of the year we will have a comprehensive new YDNA data from almost all regions of Georgia.

Looking forward to it. Why no MtDNA?

Kardu
22-09-12, 20:46
Looking forward to it. Why no MtDNA?
For this study the accent was on YDNA

foryouandme
22-09-12, 21:04
I don't know if you've seen this or not but I found another interesting link on Armenian haplogroups:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/armeniadnaproject/default.aspx?section=results

Do you suppose that Armenians and Georgians have similar distribution of haplogroups?

Kardu
28-12-12, 18:35
I don't know if you've seen this or not but I found another interesting link on Armenian haplogroups:

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/armeniadnaproject/default.aspx?section=results

Do you suppose that Armenians and Georgians have similar distribution of haplogroups?

The distribution is quite different:

Armenian http://s5.postimage.org/ypen85u8j/Armenian.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/ypen85u8j/)

Georgian http://s5.postimage.org/6qp2v1hzn/GEO.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/6qp2v1hzn/)

Kardu
28-12-12, 18:36
And BTW here are recent Laz results: L1b - 42%, J2a - 28%, G2a - 17%, J1 - 3%, R1b1a2 - 3%, E1b1b - 6%, I2a - 3%.

Yetos
29-12-12, 08:23
And BTW here are recent Laz results: L1b - 42%, J2a - 28%, G2a - 17%, J1 - 3%, R1b1a2 - 3%, E1b1b - 6%, I2a - 3%.

kardu if you have the variations of G2a plz post.

I want to see how much common is with the minor asian G2a

Kardu
29-12-12, 11:09
kardu if you have the variations of G2a plz post.

I want to see how much common is with the minor asian G2a
We will make haplotypes public some time in January/February 2013. Meanwhile I can tell you that many of them are Caucasus cluster G2a1a1

LazuriYildirim
28-01-13, 04:02
We will make haplotypes public some time in January/February 2013. Meanwhile I can tell you that many of them are Caucasus cluster G2a1a1

I am of Laz ancestry, and recently tested R1b haplogroup. You are correct about the Mergel association. Turkey is very ethnically diverse in general- the area has many different 'tribes', they named everyone from Samsun to the east of the Country in the black sea region 'Laz' but not all of that population is 'Laz.' The name 'Laz' was a nickname given to this population by the ottomans. We consider the people who speak Laz language, which is very similar to Georgian and the same as Mergel language, to be Lazuri. The language is about 10% greek. We use the same city and town names as are used in Greek. The people who speak Laz/Mergel in Turkey are mostly concentrated from Ardasan to Sarpi.

Another population of Laz/Mergel speaking people exists in Russia. These people were unaware of a differentiation between Laz and Mergel.

In Sarp, where I am from, there is a wide variety of people. There are people who look very Irish, however my family with the R1b haplotype are not amung them. There are blonde people, redheads, freckles and blue eyes, as well as people who look more Greek or Turkish. We live next to the Black Sea, and about 5 miles inland is a population called Hamsin, who speak Armenian. That population, which lives within the Laz speaking area, has never really intermarried with Laz people until recently.

I would love to hear about other Laz genetics or any information which is available. I am no expert, but this is my understanding from having interest in this subject and searching as well as the knowledge I had while growing up.

Kardu
28-01-13, 10:44
Thanks for your post!
Yes, we did test only Laz speakers with known Laz ancestry.
Through which company have you got your results?

LazuriYildirim
30-01-13, 04:31
Thanks for your post!
Yes, we did test only Laz speakers with known Laz ancestry.
Through which company have you got your results?

It was the DNA ancestry project with Gene Bank. Do you have experience with others?

Kardu
30-01-13, 23:48
I've been tested on FTDNA and 23andme (and the very first test was through National Geographic project in 2005).

We have a Georgian DNA project on FTDNA. Some Laz results will appear there in coming months as well.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/georgia/default.aspx?section=yresults

LazuriYildirim
04-02-13, 01:58
Here is my information, from looking at the information you sent me in the link I was wondering if it looks like Giorgi Tavdgindze could have a common ancestor? I am new at this and I don't know exatly how to interpret information. Does that seem like a likley conclusion or how would you interpret this? Looking him up on wikipedia led me to a picture posing with several Laz people actually.

I spoke to someone just the other day who told me that Ellaz in rum (who are related to greeks) means 'greek', and that it seems likely that when the Ottomans came to the black sea region they nicknamed the people 'Laz' because the people chanted the word 'Elazus'
DYS19/394
14
DYS385a
12

DYS385b
15

DYS388
12

DYS389i
13

DYS389ii
29

DYS390
24

DYS391
10

DYS392
13

DYS393
12

DYS426
12

DYS437
15

DYS438
12

DYS439
12

DYS447
25

DYS448
19

DYS460
11

GATA H4
13

YCAIIa
19

YCAIIb
23

Yetos
04-02-13, 07:58
I spoke to someone just the other day who told me that Ellaz in rum (who are related to greeks) means 'greek', and that it seems likely that when the Ottomans came to the black sea region they nicknamed the people 'Laz' because the people chanted the word 'Elazus'

I also heard that version,
and met many persons that carry that believe,

Kardu
04-02-13, 10:46
Here is my information, from looking at the information you sent me in the link I was wondering if it looks like Giorgi Tavdgindze could have a common ancestor? I am new at this and I don't know exatly how to interpret information. Does that seem like a likley conclusion or how would you interpret this? Looking him up on wikipedia led me to a picture posing with several Laz people actually.

I spoke to someone just the other day who told me that Ellaz in rum (who are related to greeks) means 'greek', and that it seems likely that when the Ottomans came to the black sea region they nicknamed the people 'Laz' because the people chanted the word 'Elazus'
DYS19/394
14
DYS385a
12

DYS385b
15

DYS388
12

DYS389i
13

DYS389ii
29

DYS390
24

DYS391
10

DYS392
13

DYS393
12

DYS426
12

DYS437
15

DYS438
12

DYS439
12

DYS447
25

DYS448
19

DYS460
11

GATA H4
13

YCAIIa
19

YCAIIb
23

Thanks for sharing the haplotype!
With Tavdgiridze it seems you share a common ancestor about 2000+ years ago. Tavdgiridzes belong to Adjarian nobility. Adjara was part of Lazika before and Tavdgiridze's hometown Kobuleti is quite close to Sarpi.

As for Laz/Elazus it's a totally folk etymology :) Ethnonym Laz is attested many centuries before the Turkish tribes entered Anatolia from their Central Asian homeland.

Kardu
19-02-13, 00:26
FYI we have made some Laz haplotypes public on our project page. And there is one with R1b1a2

foryouandme
04-08-13, 14:25
And BTW here are recent Laz results: L1b - 42%, J2a - 28%, G2a - 17%, J1 - 3%, R1b1a2 - 3%, E1b1b - 6%, I2a - 3%.

Wow! A good mixture. I always thought Lazuri and Georgian people resembled Semitic and Celtic people. No wonder they're good looking.

Icebreaker
29-12-13, 04:30
Does anyone know where I can find Laz results?

Kardu
29-12-13, 18:51
Does anyone know where I can find Laz results?

They are here although unfortunately they aren't specified as Laz for public.

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/georgia/default.aspx?section=yresults

What exactly are you looking for?

Icebreaker
29-12-13, 19:31
I'm interested in y-dna's and gedmatch results.

Btw, my paternal great-grandfather is a Laz.

Kardu
04-01-14, 19:13
I'm interested in y-dna's and gedmatch results.

Btw, my paternal great-grandfather is a Laz.

There will be several Laz results on Gedmatch in near future.

If you like you can join our project, we have several Laz among R1b1a2.

Icebreaker
04-01-14, 20:25
Great news.

I've been tested on 23andme.

Kardu
13-02-14, 01:24
The Laz is mixed Pontians ...They arent pure

Can you please elaborate?

Trabzon
22-11-14, 03:17
And BTW here are recent Laz results: L1b - 42%, J2a - 28%, G2a - 17%, J1 - 3%, R1b1a2 - 3%, E1b1b - 6%, I2a - 3%.

Thats are very interesting results. I expected common anatolian and caucasian originated yHg like J1,J2 and G2a. %42 is very high percentage for L. May be the all sample are relatives? Sampling method should be check out. ( The avars have L1b as %9 at most at the caucasian. %42 is realy so high. )


Btw, Georgians have G,
Lazish people have L
Jews have J
Eagypt has E
Grans sons of Chenghiz Han has C...,
Nordic Fin people has N

Whats going on people.

Kardu
24-11-14, 17:50
Thats are very interesting results. I expected common anatolian and caucasian originated yHg like J1,J2 and G2a. %42 is very high percentage for L. May be the all sample are relatives? Sampling method should be check out. ( The avars have L1b as %9 at most at the caucasian. %42 is realy so high. )


Btw, Georgians have G,
Lazish people have L
Jews have J
Eagypt has E
Grans sons of Chenghiz Han has C...,
Nordic Fin people has N

Whats going on people.

Some of them were distant cousins indeed, but in general L1b among Laz isn't surprising. It is also present in West Georgia, former Colchis, and several princely families belong to it (e.g. Dadiani, Shelia etc.)

Trabzon
25-11-14, 15:00
The Laz is mixed Pontians ...They arent pure

You are wrong. It seems, Greeks, Turks and Armenians arent "pure". They are mixture of Eagyptians, Anatolians, Mesopotamians and Lazs (in the term of generaly, whole eastern black sea people from Giresun to Artvin) :)