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View Full Version : why were I2a people exterminated in Italy and not in the Balkans ?



spongetaro
19-02-11, 18:33
Were the Balkans so technologically advanced to resist both Middle East Neolithic farmers (J2, G...) and Indo European ?
What happened to I2A in Italy ??

Taranis
19-02-11, 23:31
I'm not sure if this is actually accurate or has been verified, but as far as I know, the peak of I2 on the Balkans is due to a founding effect from the migrations period.

Neander
19-02-11, 23:43
I2a in balkan came from Moldavia, Ukraine, Belorusia etc.

It is a "friend" of R1a, they together form the Slavic race.

Taranis
19-02-11, 23:49
I2a in balkan came from Moldavia, Ukraine, Belorusia etc.

It is a "friend" of R1a, they together form the Slavic race.

More likely that the original Proto-Slavic people had an admixture of R1a and I2a, and that the current frequencies of the Haplogroups are a result of a founder effect in the wake of the Slavic migrations.

Neander
20-02-11, 00:19
More likely that the original Proto-Slavic people had an admixture of R1a and I2a, and that the current frequencies of the Haplogroups are a result of a founder effect in the wake of the Slavic migrations. Exactly. For example, the village Brandefor has johnson families, and mcdonalds families.

But later, only johnson families migrate to new colony. That doesnt mean that new colony actually is the cradle.

Garrick
20-02-11, 04:37
I2a in balkan came from Moldavia, Ukraine, Belorusia etc.

It is a "friend" of R1a, they together form the Slavic race.

Neander
I in the Balkans came from Anatolia before 25000 years.

You didn't give sources but you can read:

Kalevi Wiik

Where Did European Men Come From?

Journal of Genetic Genaology, 2008

Cit.

(7) About 25 kya the “Middle Eastern” Clan F sent another branch to Anatolia and further to the Balkans, and a new sub-Clan I emerged.


Cit.

Clan I had spread into Europe before the emergence of effective domestication of wild plants and animals (i.e. the beginning of agriculture and cattle raising) in the Middle East. Because of their early departure, they were still hunter-gatherers at the time of the arrival of the Early Farmers in the Balkans, and they were taught to cultivate land and raise cattle by their ”Middle East brothers” after the ”reunion of the family” in the Balkans. Accordingly, Clan I represents the “Old Europeans”


About R1a haplogroup:

Cit.

(5) About 30 kya Clan R was split into R1 and R2, and Clan R1 moved to the steppe area between the Ural mountains and the Caspian Sea.

Cit.

(6) About 25 kya one branch of Clan R1, Clan R1b, reached Iberia and the Atlantic Coast, and somewhat later Clan R1a branched from R1 and became common in the present-day Ukraine.


You can see that I and R1a are completely different clans.

And it can be seen on any graphical representation of haplogroup tree.

R1a is considered as Slavic but Old European I can not be Slavic, because it is completely different.

Shetop
20-02-11, 13:00
I have to agree with Neander and Taranis.

I believe I2a2a-Dinaric is Y-DNA which was spread by Slavs from its core in Polesia. Here are my main reasons:
1. There is historical evidence that Illyrians were migrating to Italy in 1st millennium BC so it is not possible that it was present in the Balkans at that time. If that would be the case then I2a2a-Dinaric would today be found in South and Middle Italy.
2.Second important reason is TMRCA of I2a2a-Dinaric estimated to 500 BC - 1000 BC. Since we know what was happening in Europe from that moment until today, there is no other explanation how I2a2a-Dinaric could inhabit so large territory as it does today, but the one about Slavic expansion.

Regarding R1a, most of it (almost all younger branches) was also spread by Slavs, but its homeland in Europe does not correlate to the Slavic. I'm not 100% sure about this but it is likely that R1a people were slavicized, meaning this is not original Slavic marker. If your reaction is - "that is not possible!", try to find out yourself where was the Slavic homeland.

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 13:24
I have to agree with Neander and Taranis.
I believe I2a2a-Dinaric is Y-DNA which was spread by Slavs from its core in Polesia. Here are my main reasons:
1. There is historical evidence that Illyrians were migrating to Italy in 1st millennium BC so it is not possible that it was present in the Balkans at that time. If that would be the case then I2a2a-Dinaric would today be found in South and Middle Italy.
2.Second important reason is TMRCA of I2a2a-Dinaric estimated to 500 BC - 1000 BC. Since we know what was happening in Europe from that moment until today, there is no other explanation how I2a2a-Dinaric could inhabit so large territory as it does today, but the one about Slavic expansion.
Regarding R1a, most of it (almost all younger branches) was also spread by Slavs, but its homeland in Europe does not correlate to the Slavic. I'm not 100% sure about this but it is likely that R1a people were slavicized, meaning this is not original Slavic marker. If your reaction is - "that is not possible!", try to find out yourself where was the Slavic homeland.

I agree that Slavs carried dominant I2a2...
but I am not sure I2a2 was not present before their arrival... in fact, I am inclined to believe it was widely spread along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia, and that with expand of Roman empire it was pushed north...

btw. regarding time when I2a2-Dinaric came to existance check again presentation on Ken Nordtvedt web site.... now I2a2-Dinaric corresponds to branch that splits from I2a* at 16000 years ago, I2a2-Isles is just side branch of I2a2-Dinaric that splits of it like 13000 years ago and I2a2-DIsles is another subbranch that splits from it 200 generations or round 6000 years ago...
date of edit is 3rd February 2011... so much about reliability of establishing oldness of haplogroups...

http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/WarpedFounderTree.ppt
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/
with those changes he completely undermine your reasoning as it was based on assumptions derived from his erroneous previous calculations... but are this now correct? or with more data available we can expect that estimations will again change and indicate that I2a2-Dinaric is even older?

spongetaro
20-02-11, 13:32
I agree that Slavs carried dominant I2a2...



What I don't understand is why it is absent in Poland, Lithuania etc.
It seems that Corded Ware culture was just R1a and not I2a...

Shetop
20-02-11, 13:32
I agree that Slavs carried dominant I2a2...
but I am not sure I2a2 was not present before their arrival... in fact, I am inclined to believe it was widely spread along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia, and that with expand of Roman empire it was pushed north...
btw. regarding time when I2a2-Dinaric came to existance check again presentation on Ken Nordtvedt web site.... now I2a2-Dinaric corresponds to branch that splits from I2a* at 16000 years ago, I2a2-Isles is just side branch of I2a2-Dinaric that splits of it like 13000 years ago and I2a2-DIsles is another subbranch that splits from it 200 generations or round 6000 years ago...
date of edit is 3rd February 2011... so much about reliability of establishing oldness of haplogroups...
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/WarpedFounderTree.ppt
http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/
with those changes he completely undermine your reasoning as it was based on assumptions derived from his erroneous previous calculations... but are this now correct? or with more data available we can expect that estimations will again change and indicate that I2a2-Dinaric is even older?


The split you are writing about is Identical ancestors point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_ancestors_point).
TMRCA is something else: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor)

Garrick
20-02-11, 13:58
What I don't understand is why it is absent in Poland, Lithuania etc.
It seems that Corded Ware culture was just R1a and not I2a...

spongetaro
Many Serbs and other I peoples in the Balkans loves to connect themselves with the Slavs due to cultural links, also to be clarified why the nations of the Balkans speaking Slavic languages.

Although I think the Klyosov little helped to figure out this question because he found that R1a in the Balkans is 11,000 years, then it is quite possible that it was cultural convergence due to the long co-existence of I and R1a in the Balkans.

I people are in the Balkans (and in Asia Minor) since 25,000 years ago and it was published in scientific journals and I gave an example of Kalevi Wiik in my previous post.

But your theme is excellent and I will answer you as I read about it only just need a little time to prepare.

Take into account that the inhabitants of Lydia, Thrace, Rascia and Etruscans are all I people.

The Etruscans called themselves Rasena.

You also have the linguistic similarity:

Thracians, Rascians (Serbs, state Rascia) and Rasen (Etrurians).

Shetop
20-02-11, 14:10
I people are in the Balkans (and in Asia Minor) since 25,000 years ago and it was published in scientific journals and I gave an example of Kalevi Wiik in my previous post.

Studying human history by using genetic research is relatively new approach. In that sense 2008 can be considered "old date".

I can bet Kalevi Wiik didn't even know about I2a2a-Dinaric branch at the time he was writing. I also doubt that his knowledge about Balkans history was enough to understand what actually happened.

Garrick
20-02-11, 14:16
Studying human history by using genetic research is relatively new approach. In that sense 2008 can be considered "old date".

I can bet Kalevi Wiik didn't even know about I2a2a-Dinaric branch at the time he was writing. I also doubt that his knowledge about Balkans history was enough to understand what actually happened.

Shetop
This is very serious, extensive and detailed scientific study.

And not only Kalevi Wiik, it is almost a general agreement among researchers that I carriers came from Anatolia to the Balkans about 25,000 years ago (less or more).

Therefore, I people were called the Old Europeans.

Shetop
20-02-11, 14:23
Shetop
This is very serious, extensive and detailed scientific study.
And not only Kalevi Wiik, it is almost a general agreement among researchers that I carriers came from Anatolia to the Balkans about 25,000 years ago (less or more).
Therefore, I people were called the Old Europeans.
For me person which made this site has the best research results when it comes to combining history and genetics: http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/slavs.shtml
The point is it is constantly up to date with the newest findings. Ignoring new results is the main mistake of many people including highly educated people.

Garrick
20-02-11, 14:36
For me person which made this site has the best research results when it comes to combining history and genetics: http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/slavs.shtml
The point is it is constantly up to date with the newest findings. Ignoring new results is the main mistake of many people including highly educated people.

Shetop
Ok. I can set some Russian or Western sites that explain completely different situation.

However, if you noticed, I most like to post the pure scientific papers published in reputable scientific journals.

how yes no 2
20-02-11, 16:00
The split you are writing about is Identical ancestors point (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identical_ancestors_point).
TMRCA is something else: Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Most_recent_common_ancestor)
...
For me person which made this site has the best research results when it comes to combining history and genetics: http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/slavs.shtml
The point is it is constantly up to date with the newest findings. Ignoring new results is the main mistake of many people including highly educated people.
thanks for links
I will read it...



Take into account that the inhabitants of Lydia, Thrace, Rascia and Etruscans are all I people.

The Etruscans called themselves Rasena.

You also have the linguistic similarity:

Thracians, Rascians (Serbs, state Rascia) and Rasen (Etrurians).

this tribal name Thracians/Rascians, Tyrhsenians/Rasena... also Sardis in Thrace and Lydia...

might be about R1a people...
there is no I2a2 in area settled by Etruscans, but there is R1a hotspot that matches their spread...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Etruscan_civilization_map.png/493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg


The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html


Etruscans are considered to have spoken non-indo european langauge...
there are theories that it was alike to language of Magyars (Hungarians)
and I think that might be correct as I am pretty sure that proto-Magyars were also R1a dominant people....

btw. note the hole in R1a spread in Lydia, which is location from which Etruscans departed...

Lydia also has I2a2, but it must have been later spread, as it is not present in Etruscan settled areas...
good explanation is on site quoted by Shetop


The appearance of I2a2a in Turkey is of interest. Some Antae and Sclaveni served as auxiliaries in the Byzantine army in the 6th century, so a few may have elected to settle in Byzantium. More importantly some 30,000 Slavs were transferred to Asia Minor by Byzantine Emperor Justinian II in the late 680s, after his offensive in Macedonia that temporarily restored imperial control.36 In the Middle Ages the Byzantine Empire fell to the Ottoman Turks, who gradually acquired control of much of the Balkans. This was another period of probable movement of I2a2a into Turkey. Slavery was a key part of life in the Ottoman Empire. Christian boys from conquered countries were taken away from their families, converted to Islam and enlisted into a special branch of the Ottoman army - the Janissaries - until their abolition in 1826.
http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/slavs.shtml

tribal names Thracians/Rascians/Rassians/Rasena might be R1a signature...
however, R1a is also related to Serb-like tribal name as there are two ancient old pockets of R1a - south Siberia and Serb settled areas in Balkan...
thus Sardis in Thrace and Lydia would be about R1a people...

in same time tribal name Serbs correlates with haplogroup I tribal names
Swedes/Suebi/Serbs/Sardinians ...

Serbs are dominantly haplogroup I people, but Sorbs (Wends, Lusatians or Serbja/Serbi as they call themselves) of east Germany are dominantly R1a people...

iapetoc hinted me that the name from which Serb is derived was perhaps not about origin but about profession of warriors... he might be right there...

spongetaro
21-02-11, 16:03
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg




I really wonder why R1a is so high in Paris compared to the rest of France. It can be Frankish because Netherland, Belgium and Northern France haven't such frequencies. Looks like it predates R1b...

Eldritch
19-04-12, 16:17
They weren't exterminated since they never were in Italy to start off.

mihaitzateo
28-04-12, 15:37
Were the Balkans so technologically advanced to resist both Middle East Neolithic farmers (J2, G...) and Indo European ?
What happened to I2A in Italy ??

Well was extensive genetic testing done in Italy?
I doubt.
Some areas of Italy have higher percentage of R1b but some do not.
Besides,ancient romans were allowed to make a family after they were finishing their service in the army of Roman Empire.
So only those who were surviving a lot of years in the wars,cause Roman Empire was participating in lots of wars,could had a family and kids after.
Besides,in Roman Empire plenty of celtics and germanics were taken as citisens and settled.
You do realise that Roman Empire did not trusted germanics of first generation,to give them weapons and make them soldiers.
Guess from 2nd generation they were trusted as Roman Empire citisens,because now they were speaking as maternal language latin.

zanipolo
28-04-12, 21:48
They weren't exterminated since they never were in Italy to start off.

according to some well known "scholars" the situation was as per link 5000BC
http://www.goggo.com/terry/HaplogroupI1/European_Haplogroup_locations_circa_5,000BC.jpg

with populations that where not great, the introduction of etruscans, veneti, greek, illyrian, celts, gauls into Italy made the I hg % diminish

MOESAN
29-04-12, 00:27
we are lost all of us maybe: for me, i'm sure I'm lost! I'm not able to go so deeply in details with the rough material we have yet... So I'll keep myself in generalities:
about the origins of R1a and I2a1: I agree that a very high date can be retained for the introduction of Y-I in Europe and that Anatolia seams the simplest way to it coming there (in the body of men, not on itself!) -but Balkans are a wide region: these first Y-I surely followed rivers passes to reach Central Europe and North Europe - the Western part of the Balkans, say the Dinaric Alpes and Dalmatia coasts don't seam to me being the first choices for these early settlers: when you look at the maps concerning the Paleolithic from -30000 to -12000 you find nothing in the Western parts of Balkans: only in Bohem, Moravia, Hungary and eastern borders of Carpathes... archeology show us quantity and quality of settlements, not always the direction of progressions - I suppose because I don't know, that there have been movements and westwards and eastwards between old Mésolithic and the beginning of the Metals Ages: some groups of Y-R1a, even if later, could have invested East Central Europe very early too:
Y-I2a and Y-R1a can have mixed in various ways with various proportions in various regions and NOT ALL of them can have given life to the relatively late Slavic culture -
What I think is that the slavic culture is born principally on a mixture of the two between Carpathians Mountains and the western part of the steppes, at a crossing of human "floods", and that the northern tribes bore more R1a (as the first Corded culture bearers) when the southern ones bore more I2a1 - I believe in a big demographic 'boom' among historical Slavs that send a lot of I2a1 and some R1a to the Balkans in a kind of backwards movement (with few variety among I2a1) - only then became present day Croatia and Serbia and Bosnia centers of high density of I2a1-
no impossibility: as said by someones here yet, Maciamo by instance, the age of an HG tells us little about its ancient distribution...
I add that ancient forms of Y-I2 are not absent of Northeastern Italy -

mihaitzateo
29-04-12, 01:26
Well Sardigna is not a slavic culture,but have a very high percentage of I2A,is not I2-din south,but still I2A-M26.
In Balkans only language spoken have a lot of slavic words,but culture is not slavic.
Go look a little at pictures of bulgarians and serbians and montenegrins and people from FYROM and tell if you find anyone looking slavic.

Malsori
29-04-12, 21:39
R1a is considered as Slavic but Old European I can not be Slavic, because it is completely different.


How come R1a is Slavic?

Actually it is Proto Indo-European marker and Slavs happen to have more than other Europeans.

And agreed with the others SouthSlavs much probably were a mixture between I2a2 and R1a.

MOESAN
01-05-12, 00:03
Well Sardigna is not a slavic culture,but have a very high percentage of I2A,is not I2-din south,but still I2A-M26.
In Balkans only language spoken have a lot of slavic words,but culture is not slavic.
Go look a little at pictures of bulgarians and serbians and montenegrins and people from FYROM and tell if you find anyone looking slavic.

I agree there are some differences phenotypically between South Slavs and North or East Slavs but so I see big enough differences between the majority of Bulgarians and other South Slavs -
2 points:
- there is a gradient between the different slavic speaking populations and it is easy enough fo find intermediary looking or "central looking" people in all the slavic speaking population: a lot of Croatians can be taken for a lot of czechs or southern Polish men or a lot of Ukrainians (as do a lot of Hungarians)... sure the East Baltic types or the Dinaric types have not the same distribution in the diverse extreme corners of the big area of the slavic languages, I agree!
- in big regions of the Balkans the percentage of I2a1a don't run higher than 40% and we can find about 20% of it in some parts of Ukraina: son' forget the other elements of population that can play a role in the phenotypes...
to conclude I repeat here that the paleolithic population was very scarce in the Balkans AND IT IS A FACT THAT CAN'T BE LEFT ASIDE SO CARELESS

zanipolo
01-05-12, 08:16
I agree there are some differences phenotypically between South Slavs and North or East Slavs but so I see big enough differences between the majority of Bulgarians and other South Slavs -
2 points:
- there is a gradient between the different slavic speaking populations and it is easy enough fo find intermediary looking or "central looking" people in all the slavic speaking population: a lot of Croatians can be taken for a lot of czechs or southern Polish men or a lot of Ukrainians (as do a lot of Hungarians)... sure the East Baltic types or the Dinaric types have not the same distribution in the diverse extreme corners of the big area of the slavic languages, I agree!
- in big regions of the Balkans the percentage of I2a1a don't run higher than 40% and we can find about 20% of it in some parts of Ukraina: son' forget the other elements of population that can play a role in the phenotypes...
to conclude I repeat here that the paleolithic population was very scarce in the Balkans AND IT IS A FACT THAT CAN'T BE LEFT ASIDE SO CARELESS

you seem to not realise that all the slavs in the balkans are in majority not genetic slavs but only linguistic slavs.

If you read from the polish forums, they say the slavs in balkans came from slavs that entered firstly into modern poland and then some went south. The poles originated as slavs in and around modern Kiev ( ukraine).
So, we know the croatians are originally persian ( iranics), the serbians are thracian, the bulgars are turkic, the avars in northern serbia are turkic, the bosnians are illyrian, the slovenes are celtic, venetic and illyrian and montengrians are ex-serbians from thracian people.
Justinian and others later on only mentioned a total of 100000 slav warriors plus 100000 family members.

If you can understand that the russian people as noted by popultion numbers was 3M and the balkans was 3.5M in and around the year 500AD , we can see why this group of slavs was of a minor number in the balkans. The avars where the first to enter in 575AD and a century later the slavs.

The I2a1 was already in the balkans prior to the turkic Avars and also prior to the "polish" slavs

pipinnacanus
14-05-12, 01:11
Were the Balkans so technologically advanced to resist both Middle East Neolithic farmers (J2, G...) and Indo European ?
What happened to I2A in Italy ??

The most plausible explanation is that the Balkan difficult terrain and isolation protected the aboriginal I2.

Their is no real way to explain the Romanians surrounded by slavs for a long period after the last contact with any Latins/Romans, still maintaining the latin culture and language unless a population is extant that is preserving this.

The largest pct of Romanians are I2 / aboriginal, with significant intrusions from R1a and R1b. The quarter of the population that is I2 has in my opinion been there since before the Romanization. I2 aboriginals were decimated in most places within europe by the ascent of the R1a and R1b but the difficult terrain and the well-noted tenaciousness (by romans, ottomans, russians in ww2) of the aboriginal I2 romanians allowed them to hold out in the more forbidding landscapes of the mountainous balkans better than in flat land or open agricultural areas.

sparkey
14-05-12, 02:20
The most plausible explanation is that the Balkan difficult terrain and isolation protected the aboriginal I2.

What characteristics of the type of I2 that is present in the Balkans makes you think that it's "aboriginal" to that region? Where in Europe do you think I2 is "aboriginal" to?

MOESAN
14-05-12, 19:09
you seem to not realise that all the slavs in the balkans are in majority not genetic slavs but only linguistic slavs.

If you read from the polish forums, they say the slavs in balkans came from slavs that entered firstly into modern poland and then some went south. The poles originated as slavs in and around modern Kiev ( ukraine).
So, we know the croatians are originally persian ( iranics), the serbians are thracian, the bulgars are turkic, the avars in northern serbia are turkic, the bosnians are illyrian, the slovenes are celtic, venetic and illyrian and montengrians are ex-serbians from thracian people.
Justinian and others later on only mentioned a total of 100000 slav warriors plus 100000 family members.

If you can understand that the russian people as noted by popultion numbers was 3M and the balkans was 3.5M in and around the year 500AD , we can see why this group of slavs was of a minor number in the balkans. The avars where the first to enter in 575AD and a century later the slavs.

The I2a1 was already in the balkans prior to the turkic Avars and also prior to the "polish" slavs

1- I never said that Southern Slavs was identical to Northern, Western or Eastern Slavs - I said they share a lot of fetaures - and I repeat Bulgarians as a whole are VERY DIFFERENT from other Southern Slavs
2- NO people is nor WAS pure at the down of our era even your Turcs or Illyrians or ...
3- the differences between Southern Slavs and other Slavs don' t find basis only to the distribution of Y-I2a1 because others autosomals and HGs are playing there
4- I agree that a part of the first Serbian or Croatioan people have surely a non-slavic origin but that don't link this foreign part to Y-I2a1
5- my affirmation that Y-I2a1b as a whole is not autochtonous to present day Dalmatia and Dinaric Alps don't signify I believe all this new stock of Y-I2a1b in Balkans is only of Slavic origin, arrived therevery late: previous peoples there (since the Neolithic) carried surely among others a lot of this HG and they there are big chances that they had contact with Slavs after contacts with other I-E folks - So my only bets are that Y-I2a1b has had a complicated enough story in all these lands and it stays always the problem of his relative poor diversity ...

Aaron1981
19-05-12, 20:48
They were probably never exterminated, they were probably never there. There are I2a1 haplotypes in Italy, Spain and Sardinia. That's likely as close as you will get - and the ocassional I2a2 balkan haplotype.

MOESAN
20-05-12, 22:41
you seem to not realise that all the slavs in the balkans are in majority not genetic slavs but only linguistic slavs. If you read from the polish forums, they say the slavs in balkans came from slavs that entered firstly into modern poland and then some went south. The poles originated as slavs in and around modern Kiev ( ukraine). So, we know the croatians are originally persian ( iranics), the serbians are thracian, the bulgars are turkic, the avars in northern serbia are turkic, the bosnians are illyrian, the slovenes are celtic, venetic and illyrian and montengrians are ex-serbians from thracian people. Justinian and others later on only mentioned a total of 100000 slav warriors plus 100000 family members. If you can understand that the russian people as noted by popultion numbers was 3M and the balkans was 3.5M in and around the year 500AD , we can see why this group of slavs was of a minor number in the balkans. The avars where the first to enter in 575AD and a century later the slavs. The I2a1 was already in the balkans prior to the turkic Avars and also prior to the "polish" slavs I KNOW southern slavic populations are not pure Slavs descendants (almost everyone knows that) if you had red my previous post you can see I consider Bulgarians as a whole as the less slavic - we are speculating about proportions - previously I believed the slavic part among them was about 10% only - I changed, not only based on genetical studies but for phenotypes - I think now that Slavs ancestors could rise to 25-30% among present Serbs and Croats (and maybe more among slavic Macedonians - I don't think any of these peoples is pure so I don't believe at all Croats are Persians (even if remote origin could have been, but they were very mixed on their way), nor Serbs are Thracians (I should think Northern Albanians and Kosovars have more thracian blood than Serbs) - Yes, Avars and previous Bulgars was of steppic turkic origin) - what I think is that Y-I as a whole is recent in Balkans, carried by more than an ethnic group - the first Y-I2a1b surely was in North Balkans for the Iron Age, I think even earlier, BUT NOT at Paleolithic times - I think it had occasions to get there from Czechoslavia (protohistory and after maybe Illyrians), Carpathian Mountains and in early Middle Ages from Ukraina and a little after (more numerous) as you said, during the Slavs descent from Czechoslovakia - I have in mind that 'dinaric' types and Y-I2a1a and some Y-I2a2 (ex I2b) are found too in present day western Ukraina, and these people are on the way of Kiev region, you put as slavic cradle (I think as you), to Central Europe & Balkans... what I should need is a very deep and well sampled survey on the Y-I2a1a 'dinaric' everywhere in Eastern & Central Europe have a good night

MOESAN
22-05-12, 00:06
as I say in another thread, today, I did a mistake when affirmating that Illyrians could have carried a lot of Y-I2a1b and have been centered around Dalmatia (they could have some I2, but perhaps not a lot) - Illyrian genuine territory "in fine" is closer to Greece, Albania seams the center of it, a small territory indeed - illyrian language seams to the most of the linguists being linked to thracian, dacian, messapian, and albanian all satem languages after having excluded false illyrians inscriptions (and perhaps for me are they linked to Y-E1b) - the North (Slovenia) was more venetian (ancient Veneti close to Italics) - the peaks of Y-I2a1b in present day Croatia are still the problem because I don't believe in Paleolithic people there and a pure complete (& late enough) slavic origin seams exagerated - where was the deme that furnished Dalmatia-Dinaric Alps? where is the place of a possible births boom at proto-historic times? I think a possible origin in the late Neolithic Cucuteni-Tripolje region around Carpathian Mountains, in a second stage of Neolithic: what culture after that??? a secondary indo-europeanized people after exchanges with the Steppes tribes? aside the linguistic problem, the genetic one is not a problem because I suppose that the Y-I2a1b in Slavs is due for a large part to the synthesis Romania-Moldavia NeolithicSteppes peoples of Ukraina (and influences farther in Siberia!!!) AT A STAGE PRECEDING THE CENTUM>

Eldritch
28-11-12, 12:32
What characteristics of the type of I2 that is present in the Balkans makes you think that it's "aboriginal" to that region? Where in Europe do you think I2 is "aboriginal" to?
Indeed there's no basis in Pipicannus statement.

Yagi
31-03-13, 01:30
to many spekulations about the slavic people and the language. i don´t understand why everybody tries to link "modern" countrys like serbia and croatia to slavic or slavs or if they ever exicisted and who says that somebody had to come from the other side maybe the slavs are the I2a and never came from the east, they have to dig up more evidens it is to early to claim heritage let time past and science speak, this is beyond "modern" nations

Templar
05-04-13, 14:44
I think a possible origin in the late Neolithic Cucuteni-Tripolje region around Carpathian Mountains, in a second stage of Neolithic: what culture after that??? a secondary indo-europeanized people after exchanges with the Steppes tribes? aside the linguistic problem, the genetic one is not a problem because I suppose that the Y-I2a1b in Slavs is due for a large part to the synthesis Romania-Moldavia NeolithicSteppes peoples of Ukraina (and influences farther in Siberia!!!) AT A STAGE PRECEDING THE CENTUM>

I think that is possible. Imagine a tribe of hunter-gatherers interacting with incoming farmers from the Near-East; trading with them and getting to know their way of life. It is likely that they adopted farming and created a large enough population, which by the time of the invasions from the steppe would have had a good chance of "surviving" (as opposed to other Haplogroup I populations which didn't adopt farming by then). The Slavs would have formed an elite class, but over time would have assimilated the population culturally (but not genetically). This would explain a lot if we could find some conclusive evidence for it. It seems much more likely than the theory that ALL Slavs had I2 from the beginning as a sizable component of their populations.

adamo
13-04-13, 21:22
Probably haplogroup I2a never even arrived in mainland Italy. Sardinia has such high frequencies of I because a branch that proceeded from Balkans to Germany would split into two branches, one would continue north to dominate Scandinavia and one would stay in Germany. I believe the German branch split off, headed to Iberia and from Iberia ( there is 33% haplogroup I in parts of central Iberia) headed to Sardinia.... It may never have passed from Balkans to Italy to Sardinia, in my opinion

adamo
13-04-13, 21:48
This could be confirmed by the low but much higher than italy frequencies of I2 in Spain.

how yes no 3
13-04-13, 23:19
Probably haplogroup I2a never even arrived in mainland Italy. Sardinia has such high frequencies of I because a branch that proceeded from Balkans to Germany would split into two branches, one would continue north to dominate Scandinavia and one would stay in Germany. I believe the German branch split off, headed to Iberia and from Iberia ( there is 33% haplogroup I in parts of central Iberia) headed to Sardinia.... It may never have passed from Balkans to Italy to Sardinia, in my opinion

exactly....

i think also that north corner of Adriatic was held by R1a people...
and I2a took Danube path to central Europe....

not sure whether I2a1 and I2a2 could be split due to people of parent branch spending ice age in different refuge areas (that I2a1 came to existence in Iberia and I2a-din in Balkan and Black sea and exotic branches perhaps from people that tried to survive ice age in central Europe)....

regarding I2a-Din and Illyrians - I think at least some Illyrian tribes had it, but I also think Serbs and Croats brought it as well.... i explain this with my beliefs that Illyrians were Celtic people and also that distant ancestors of Serbs and Croats were Celtic people...

if I2a-Din was on Balkan in times of Illyrians, how can it be that it did not expand to Italy?
well, it does not makes sense... nothing to gain....Croatian coast with zillion islands is much better place to live and defend then flat line coasts of italy...

zanipolo
14-04-13, 00:37
exactly....

i think also that north corner of Adriatic was held by R1a people...
and I2a took Danube path to central Europe....

not sure whether I2a1 and I2a2 could be split due to people of parent branch spending ice age in different refuge areas (that I2a1 came to existence in Iberia and I2a-din in Balkan and Black sea and exotic branches perhaps from people that tried to survive ice age in central Europe)....

regarding I2a-Din and Illyrians - I think at least some Illyrian tribes had it, but I also think Serbs and Croats brought it as well.... i explain this with my beliefs that Illyrians were Celtic people and also that distant ancestors of Serbs and Croats were Celtic people...

if I2a-Din was on Balkan in times of Illyrians, how can it be that it did not expand to Italy?
well, it does not makes sense... nothing to gain....Croatian coast with zillion islands is much better place to live and defend then flat line coasts of italy...


LOL, u need to get up to date...2012 data

current DNA of the Northeast of Italy

pre-roman (%) ( 2012)
E-V13 = 2.2
E-M215 = 2.2
E-M34 = 2.1 (semitic people)
G-P15 = 4.2
I-M423 = 21.3
I-M26 = 2.1
J-M172 = 10.7
L-M317 = 2.1
R-M420 = 12.8
R-M269 = 40.4


2008 tests (%)
E-M33 = 1.5
E-V13 = 1.5
E-M123 = 1.5
G2a* = 11.9
I1* = 9.0
I2a1* = 9.4
I-M223 = 1.5
J2a* = 3.0
J2a1k = 3.0
J-M92 = 1.5
L2-M317 = 4.5
R-M420 = 10.4
R-M269 = 41.8
T-L131 = 3.0
T-P77 = 0.3

Phenotype
Central and Eastern Veneto ( with friuli)
- Type 1 : Intermediate complexion (chestnut or blonde hair, light eyes, ...), leptomorphic, rather narrow face, long and straight high-rooted nose that can get arched, close set eyes, large jaw, pointy chin
~ Dinaromorphic Nordo-Mediterranean

Western Veneto ( with Trento )
- Type 2 : Intermediate complexion, brachymorphic, round face, little and low-rooted nose that can get snub-tipped, wide set eyes
~ Alpinoid

Venetian lagoon area
- Type 3 : Intermediate complexion (from medium dark to blonde hair, blue, green or hazel eyes ...), brachymorphic, little and narrow straight nose, square-box face, broad forehead, rather wide-set eyes
~ Alpinoid/Subnordid

Venetian-Istrano
- Type 4 : Light complexion (blonde hair, green eyes, ...), leptomorphic, arched nose, large jaw, pointy chin, close-set eyes
~ Nordo-Dinarid

women , either
type that one could label, "Alpino-Med" which is very specific to Veneto : puffy and fleshy features
or
classical North Italian phenotype ( some individuals actually match neighbouring Slovenian variability), it is traditionally accompanied by a darker variant (Dinaro-Mediterranoid) which is the quintessential pan-Italian phenotype.

The only y-dna change between ancient and modern times is more G2a.
J, I and E dropped

adamo
14-04-13, 02:11
Some Frenchmen but predominantly Iberian, especially central Spanish men, are high in percentage of Sardinian I suggesting that it moved from Balkans to Germany, Germany through France to Spain/Iberia where it stayed a while and the over to Sardinia. ( among the 10% of Spanish that are I, the predominance is the Sardinian subclade).

adamo
14-04-13, 02:51
Phenotype a dont really mean much at all in terms of actual genetics unless we are talking about precise population features such as haplogroup I and R1b people's being very white, American Indians being olive skinned and Chinese eyed or Assyrians having jet black hair and beards with predominantly brown eyes...features such as skinny, fat or aquiline noses are found in Mesopotamian just as in Celtic, Nordic, Native American people's...for example certain I1a men have aquiline/Arabid noses but their whiter, but somewhere down the line they came from the Middle East/Anatolia as well. All that coon's plates stuff to me of alpine/Nordic race etc. is vague and not important unless for the obvious distinctions, for example negroids have flat and wide noses such as mongoloids and caucasoids have skinnier longer noses. The main distinctive categories to me make obvious sense such as negroid, mongoloid, caucasoid etc. but the rest of the subcategories are vague considering looks and certain facial features vary greatly even within populations ( oval faces, heart shaped faces, round faces, fat, skinny, big, small noses etc). Even within caucasoids or other groups, traits such as alpine-meds and puffy fleshy faces and bracylocephalic skull....it's much more vague than the story of the genetics that is pin point accurate in determining similar groups...the other methods seem outdated and can not cover the broad level of possible anthropological diversities within a population in a precise way , in my opinion.

Nobody1
14-04-13, 05:35
at Zanipolo

It seems that there is not only an Anthropological diff. Between North and South Italy, but also within the North itself. - between North West [Lombardy/Liguria/Piedmont] and North East [Veneto/Friul].
This is Strictly Anthropologically Sub-Races of the Caucasoid race [Alpine-Nordic-Mediterranean-Armenoid].

Eugène Pittard - Race and History: An Ethnological Introduction to History (1926)
~ ITALY ~ - p.148
(1) The Adriatic or Dinaric race, tall, brachycephalic and brunet, inhabited the northeast.
---
(2) The Western or Cevenole race, brunet, brachycephalic and small, installed itself to the west of the Dinaric people. But these representatives of Homo alpinus do not seem to constitute such a homogeneous bloc as their neighbours to the east.
---
(3) The Ibero-Insular race — the Homo meridionalis of certain authors — is distributed in the south of Italy; This ethnic type — small, dark-haired, dolichocephalic — also peoples the Italian islands [Sardinia/Sicily]
---
To these three main races we must add that interesting but, as regards its origin, enigmatic group of the Ligurian Apennines and the littoral of the Riviera di Levante characterized by tall stature and dolichocephaly. Ought we to connect it, zoologically, with the Atlanto-Mediterranean race of Deniker — which, with breaks, inhabits the country extending from the French coast almost to the mouth of the Tiber ? Have we here survivals of a Nordic type ? Or should we rather credit, historically, the idea that they are a remnant of the Germanic bands of Radegast rather than that they constitute a residue of hypothetical Lydians ?
---

Something all other Anthropologists [Eickstedt/Banse/Lundman/Deniker/Czekanowski etc] confirm, that NE Italy is more Dinaric and NW Italy more Alpinoid (Mediterranid/Atlanto-Mediterranid)

von Eickstedt -
http://www.theapricity.com/snpa/bilder/eickrassen.jpg

Atlanto-Medit. from Piedmont NW Italy - [Carleton S. Coon - Plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img10/8110/74860550.png

Borreby [Nordid/Alpine] from Lombardy N Italy - [Carleton S. Coon - Plates]
http://imageshack.us/a/img259/6971/87278453.png

Noric type from Vicenza (Venetia) NE Italy - [Ridolfo Livi - Plates]
(http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/89/75038567yb.png/)http://imageshack.us/a/img89/2245/75038567yb.png

Also, acc. to Ridolfo Livi the NE of Italy is the region with the highest frequency of Blond hair {higher than Lombardy or Piedmont] and together with Lombardy the highest frequency of Light eyes (Blue/Grey) in Italy.
Something [exact frequencies] also Beals & Hoijer confirm.

Dr. Ridolfo Livi - Antropometria Militare
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3420/4562291520_678f532076_z.jpg

Dr. Gustav Kraitschek - Zeitschrift für Schul-Geographie: Vol XXIII-XXIV (1902)
Der Einfluss der nordischen Rasse in Oberitalien ist nicht überall gleich stark ... unter den italienischen Arbeitern, die bei uns als Erdarbeiter, Straßenbauer usw thätig sind, sieht man zuweilen mächtige, blond- oder rothbärtige Männer mit "germanischem" Profile, die wohl meist aus den nördlichen Theilen der Poebene stammen.
Translation -
The influence of the Nordic race in northern Italy is not equally strong ... among Italian workers who are active with us (Austria-Hungary) as navvies, road builders, etc, you see sometimes powerful, blond or red-bearded men with "Germanic" profiles, which were probably mostly from the northern parts of the Po Valley.

Anthropologically the NE Italians (Venetians/Friulians) are more Noric/Dinaric than NW Italians (Lombards/Piedmontese/Ligurians) who are more Alpinoid/Mediterranid.The Adriatic Veneti must have been of a diff. Caucasoid sub-race than the Umbrians/Insubres (Isombri). Also Genetically, NE Italians have the highest (far more than NW Italy) R1a frequency in Italy.

Nobody1
14-04-13, 12:48
as for the question itself, was there really that much I2a in Italy in order for it to be exterminated? doubtful.....

adamo
14-04-13, 13:08
No there never was. And traits such as red hair are not indicative of race....there are R1b men with red, blond, brown even black hair and eye color... It's not indicative of subtypes of humans that are classified together

gyms
14-04-13, 15:42
if I2a-Din was on Balkan in times of Illyrians, how can it be that it did not expand to Italy?
well, it does not makes sense... nothing to gain....Croatian coast with zillion islands is much better place to live and defend then flat line coasts of italy... " No,I2a-"DinS" was not on Balkan in times of Illyrians,because I2a-"DinS" is 2050 years old.Try to understand!

adamo
14-04-13, 16:20
Possibly for environmental reasons maybe the just decided to stay in their Balkan Bosnian refuge, there may be many reasons why they never went to Italy including that they didn't know its existence, could be anything. All I know is that I is the oldest surviving male lineage to enter Europe so I2a could not have been in Europe the shortest total time that's for sure

adamo
15-04-13, 22:00
Actually according to a map I saw recently by a certain geneticist called Nordverdt , I-M26 the Sardinian variety crossed directly from the Bosnia area of the Balkans to Italy, then to Sardinia, then to Spain then to France and some of it ended up in England, all at low trace percentages of course, other than Sardinia where it thrived. The second most common place is in Spain although its already rare even there.

sparkey
17-04-13, 01:35
Actually according to a map I saw recently by a certain geneticist called Nordverdt , I-M26 the Sardinian variety crossed directly from the Bosnia area of the Balkans to Italy, then to Sardinia, then to Spain then to France and some of it ended up in England, all at low trace percentages of course, other than Sardinia where it thrived. The second most common place is in Spain although its already rare even there.

You're over-interpreting Nordtvedt's schematic map. It isn't intended to show the precise geographic branching locations of M26 across its history, it's only, as Nordtvedt says, a "schematic, don't overinterpret." More useful for a precise analysis of the history of M26 is Cullen's tree (http://cullengene.blogspot.com/2013/01/this-tree-includes-all-known-snps-in-i.html). Notice that its highest diversity is actually in Germany, but with its only major subclade having its highest diversity in France. That gives us a much better idea of its history. Also notice that, per Nordtvedt's map and tree, its closest relatives are the Western and Alpine subclades, followed by the big blob that includes the young Dinaric clade. But Dinaric is the geographic outlier... check out my map (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map) and look for the red dots.

stoningbull54
26-07-17, 22:26
Look at where the supposed Serbian homeland is which was known as "Dervan's Serbia" and compare it to modern distribution of I2a1. There is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the exact area where the Serbian homeland was stated to be by Byzantine Chronicles.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Dervan.png
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

ihype02
26-08-17, 15:56
Look at where the supposed Serbian homeland is which was known as "Dervan's Serbia" and compare it to modern distribution of I2a1. There is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the exact area where the Serbian homeland was stated to be by Byzantine Chronicles.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Dervan.png
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Which place exactly? East Germany next to Czechia?

Garrick
26-08-17, 16:53
Look at where the supposed Serbian homeland is which was known as "Dervan's Serbia" and compare it to modern distribution of I2a1. There is an elevated frequency of I2a1 in the exact area where the Serbian homeland was stated to be by Byzantine Chronicles.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ac/Dervan.png
http://cache.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Dervan was king of Lusatian Sorbs (Surbi) and Dervan' Serbia was country of Lusatian Sorbs.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs_(tribe)

"The Surbi, also known as Sorbs in modern historiography, was an Early Slavic tribe in Lower Lusatia, part of the Wends. In the 7th century, the tribe was part of Samo's Empire. The tribe is last mentioned in the late 10th century.

Dervan's province.
The oldest mention of the Surbi is from the Frankish 7th-century Chronicle of Fredegar, in which they are mentioned as a Slavic tribe under the leadership of dux (duke) Dervan ("Dervanus dux gente Surbiorum que ex genere Sclavinorum"), which joined the Slavic tribal union of Samo (known in historiography as "Samo's Empire").[1] The Surbi lived in the Saale-Elbe valley, having settled in the Thuringian part of Francia.[1] The Saale-Elbe line marked the approximate limit of Slavic westward migration.[2] The Surbi and other Slavic tribes joined Samo after his decisive victory against Frankish King Dagobert I in 631.[1] Afterwards, these Slavic tribes continuously raided Thuringia.[1] The fate of the tribes after 658 is undetermined, though some subsequently returned to Frankish vassalage."
...

Nothing to do with Balkan Serbs, even genetic is very different, only similarity in name, probably word with letters s, r and b has old origin.

Parafarne
30-09-17, 14:49
Look if there is 21-24% R1a in Southern Slavs then the Slavic ancestry should be around 40-47% in Balkan. The question must be are the rest of I2 native or Slavic migrators too, which in my believe were native to the Balkans and only half of Southern Slavs are from Slavic ancestry.

Aaron1981
01-10-17, 00:22
Because the very common branches of I2-L621 in the Balkans have a very young TMRCA that spread with Slavic speakers less than 2000 years ago. Yes, the ancestor to this branch is far older, but likely resided in NE Europe along with R1a-M458. Perhaps the Belarus area. E-V13 is also quite common in this group as well, but it may have a different point of origin.

You might want to ask the question - Where did the G2a Carpathian farmers go? Good question. It's quite clear the branches common in the Balkans today were probably not there during the Bronze or Neolithic age. M458 and I2-L621 are definitely not Balkan refugium groups.

I2-M26 and I2-M223 have turned up in ancient DNA of the Carpathains/Balkans and are at negligible frequency in the same region today. Both have absolutely no relationship to the branches common in Slavic speakers who reside there today.

Garrick
01-10-17, 01:47
Look if there is 21-24% R1a in Southern Slavs then the Slavic ancestry should be around 40-47% in Balkan. The question must be are the rest of I2 native or Slavic migrators too, which in my believe were native to the Balkans and only half of Southern Slavs are from Slavic ancestry.

For a long time there was no right explanation for this.

But Ukrainian scientists made a key breakthrough, they proved that in area north of the Black sea along the upper and middle Dnieper and Pripyat Rivers, Zarubintsy culture was Bastarnaian!

Zarubintsy culture is very important because it is predecessor of Kiev culture which is Slavic.

It means Bastarnae are one of key elements of Slavic ethnogenesis.

When we see movement of Bastarnae people they were in the area of Vistula before 200 BC and after that they migrated to the Dacian and Sarmatian borders.

If Bastarnae were Germanic, (or Celtic), what scholars think. But surely they were not Slavic.

Vistula area Nordtvedt designates for area where I-CTS10228 appeared after bottleneck.

It means Bastarnae can be Mesolitic survivors carriers of I-CTS10228 haplogroup.

Bastarnae first time came to the Balkans 179 BC, after that they came and settled more times, and they mixed with Thracians/Dacians. There is source which claims that significant part of Balkan population before 5th century was mixed Bastarnaian/Thracian.

Bastarnae who were on Northen Carpatian, and Western Ukraine and beyond mixed with Sarmatians, and probably Scythians.

What is interesting Bastarnae were very numerous that some historians call them people (nation) and not tribe.

If this theory accurate I-CTS10228 carriers were in the Balkans, Romania and Moldavia much before Slavs what excellency explains your question.

Dumidre
01-10-17, 03:44
Interesting theory, one problem though... the presence of I-CTS10228 is quite large in the Balkans, Romania, Moldova... why not attribute that to the Dacians/ Getae/ Carps and all the other Thracian Tribes?

Dumidre
01-10-17, 04:18
"Because the very common branches of I2-L621 in the Balkans have a very young TMRCA that spread with Slavic speakers less than 2000 years ago."
I2-L621 is present all the way in Sardinia and the Slavic speakers definitely originated way North and East of that... Is definitely a puzzle...

MOESAN
01-10-17, 20:00
You 're confusing I2a1b L621 (Slavic?) with M26 ( Sardinia) I think.

Dumidre
02-10-17, 17:44
You 're confusing I2a1b L621 (Slavic?) with M26 ( Sardinia) I think.

You are correct, my bad... I stand corrected (wrong source of info.)...