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edao
21-02-11, 22:19
With potential democratic revolution sweeping across the arab world is Gerorge W. Bush to thank?

Would any of this have been possible without the war in Iraq and the fall of Sadam Hussain?

sparkey
21-02-11, 22:41
The overthrow of Saddam Hussein was undoubtedly a blow to Baathism, and Baathism stood opposed to the typical ideals of the current protesters. But to say that the War in Iraq contributed directly to the current protests is stretching it. How much influence can we really say Saddam Hussein had on Tunisia? I think very little.

And even if we determined that the War in Iraq caused the current protests--how does that make Bush a great man? The War in Iraq would still be a mistake, in my estimation. Although granting a certain amount of political freedoms to Shia and Kurds, it has resulted in destabilization in the region, and cost the US money, status, and lives. And even the recent changes in the Middle East have not been all positive... unless you think Hezbollah are more friendly than the Future Movement.

Michael Folkesson
21-02-11, 23:41
I wish I had a greater experience of the Arab world, and I have pushed forward my plans of studying the language and travel with it, I fear I will never do it.

But no, I don't think that the Iraq war or the war in Afghanistan helped democracy or made a butterfly effect into the current riots in the Arab countries. It seemed to me it actually seemed to lessen the animosity otherwise felt against Hussein, making him looking more like a martyr and a victim than the monster he was. The war with Iran was backed by the US with weapons, finance and policy for Iraq and the regime. The sudden turn when that failed war lead to Iraq invading Kuwait, the following two wars against same Iraq and regime - with the circus of sanctions that only served to strengthen the regime - was responsible for a huge amount of dead citizens. I am not saying Iraq was better off with Hussein in power, but that I am unsure the price was worth to pay.

It seems to me that public tension and anger against the regimes of these countries seem to have been simmering for a very long time. It took a spark in one country to make an explosion throughout the Arab world. But I think if any one aspect should be considered making a profound difference, I think it is that we live in a far more transparent world today than earlier, considering the inflow of information through the internet and travel as well as the difficulty of the regimes to keep information in. Cause here and now, as always, the ones making the difference and change are the young people; the ones that doesn't know better and have little to lose. My thoughts.

Send some roses to Tim Berners-Lee and CERN.

edao
22-02-11, 07:04
I think it is that we live in a far more transparent world today than earlier, considering the inflow of information through the internet and travel as well as the difficulty of the regimes to keep information in.

It's a good point, it's very easy to forget that the free flow of information we have today is very new. Already we take for granted the new possibilities and radical changes it brings with it.

LeBrok
22-02-11, 09:11
I really wanted to believe that current ant-regime revolts are caused by political movements. It would be great and uplifting, but these are my personal feelings a freedom fighter.

History is teaching us that usually it is not the case. To get nation to stand up against autocrats surrounded by police and army, takes something more prosaic like hunger, pain, and anger. Democracy and freedoms are nice, but there is no popular revolution and sacrificing one’s life for it, at least for overwhelming majority of folks.

What all these Middle Eastern countries had in common is a big population spurt of last decades. In Egypt in last 30 years population doubled from 40 to 80 million. 70% of demographics is under age of 35. Situation is the same all over the region. You have millions upon millions of young people with nothing to do. Give them any reason to fight and you have an army. The ubiquitous TV and Internet did the trick too, showing them how young people live in first world and what they’re missing.
Granted, there was an economic progress in Middle East and Saharan Africa and lives got somewhat better during last economic boom. The problem was that population growth outpaced economy and creation of new work places. It’s really not good if 50% of young people are unemployed. All of this was brewing for years waiting for a moment to show its ugly face.
The only real question is "why now?"
I think the starting point was recent rise in food prices. In many of these countries governments subsidize many basic articles, like bread and gasoline. The current recession made holes in budgets of every country, Middle East and Africa wasn't immune. Governments lacking founds had to cut on what they subsidized or had to raise prices for these items, plus generally food became more expensive around the world. And here we go:

- army of unemployed young people
- expensive food, hungry families
- knowlage what they missing to first world, TV, Internet
- tribal and religious prosecutions and discriminations
- political forces trying to take over the power
- lack of freedoms ….................................and democracy
- someone said “It’s time, let’s go…”


If it comes to Bush, I think he was a romantic with lack of common sense. He’s vision included democracy for Middle East, but we are yet to see one fully working democracy there. Till then we are not even sure if any of these countries can manage running democratic system with all the political foundations, infrastructure, institutions, and overall will improve lives of their citizens with it.
I wish them well, but I have to see to believe.

Antigone
22-02-11, 17:06
Originally the reason given for the invasion of Iraq was to find WMD, it was only after this proved to be false that the democracy angle was pushed for all it was worth. So no, I don't believe George Bush's Iraq policy is the reason for today's unrest, it is the natural reaction by populations fed up with decades of oppression and corrupt rule.

The oppressed will always rebel, history teaches us that.

Sirius2b
22-02-11, 20:48
I wish I had a greater experience of the Arab world, and I have pushed forward my plans of studying the language and travel with it, I fear I will never do it.

But no, I don't think that the Iraq war or the war in Afghanistan helped democracy or made a butterfly effect into the current riots in the Arab countries. It seemed to me it actually seemed to lessen the animosity otherwise felt against Hussein, making him looking more like a martyr and a victim than the monster he was. The war with Iran was backed by the US with weapons, finance and policy for Iraq and the regime. The sudden turn when that failed war lead to Iraq invading Kuwait, the following two wars against same Iraq and regime - with the circus of sanctions that only served to strengthen the regime - was responsible for a huge amount of dead citizens. I am not saying Iraq was better off with Hussein in power, but that I am unsure the price was worth to pay.

It seems to me that public tension and anger against the regimes of these countries seem to have been simmering for a very long time. It took a spark in one country to make an explosion throughout the Arab world. But I think if any one aspect should be considered making a profound difference, I think it is that we live in a far more transparent world today than earlier, considering the inflow of information through the internet and travel as well as the difficulty of the regimes to keep information in. Cause here and nos, as always, the ones making the difference and change are the young people; the ones that doesn't know better and has little to lose. My thoughts.

.

I share completedly the ideas of Michael Folkersson.

Vallicanus
22-02-11, 20:58
It's hard to link Bush's name with democracy somehow.

Reinaert
23-02-11, 22:22
Bush is a first class lunatic.

I don't believe in an honest government in the USA.
Companies govern that country for already 60 years.

And I don't believe the unrest in the Arab world is spontaneous.
I guess the CIA and other agents are involved.

People around the Mediterranean are usually very friendly people.
Too kind to start a revolution, because there is a revolution in another country.
It's all staged and cooked!

sparkey
23-02-11, 22:53
I don't believe in an honest government in the USA.
Companies govern that country for already 60 years.

I initially felt hostile to this point... I think the US government has a lot more control over itself than you're giving it credit for... but you're on somewhat the right track when it comes to foreign policy. Eisenhower famously noted that we have a problem in this country with our military-industrial complex.



And I don't believe the unrest in the Arab world is spontaneous.
I guess the CIA and other agents are involved.

The CIA was okay with Mubarak, and probably didn't even see his ouster coming (http://www.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,2045328_2045333_2049947,00.html). Not to mention that there is no way they are happy with how things have unfolded in Lebanon.

Regulus
24-02-11, 00:20
I don't believe in an honest government in the USA.
Companies govern that country for already 60 years.
!

Only 60 years?! You left out the coal, railroad, steel and oil barons.

Even an obviously proud American like me would admit that business influences have been stronger than I would want for quite a while.

Careful, you're treading dangerously close to being pro-US.


For the record, I abstained from the poll since I felt it was intended for a European audience.

Reinaert
24-02-11, 18:46
Well.. We learned some lessons from what it is to live under the dictatorship of the German Nazi's, from 1940-1944.

Lesson 1
If you want to resist an enemy, you can't talk about it. You can't trust anyone.

Lesson 2
You may take the risk of contacting another freedom fighter you trust.
Only one!

Lesson 3
If your friend knows another friend, you don't want to know about it!
A problem is, you have to trust your friend he doesn't tell about you.

Lesson 4
In that way resistance cells are formed. You get orders for some action, and you simply carry them out.

Lesson 5 The crucial one:
You don't know who controls the cells. Maybe it's even the enemy.

---------------

I can think of this scenario.

The USA wanted to get communism and socialism out of the world.
Countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt and Libya knew a political system that was rather non-Muslim and nationalistic.

How do you get a left wing government down?
By supporting Muslim fundamentalists.
And that's what the CIA did to get the Russians out of Afghanistan.

Nowadays there has been 10 years of fighting in Afghanistan, and Osama Bin Laden is still walking a free man. Reason.. The CIA doesn't want to get him.
He probably is still payed by the CIA, to have a pretext for war.

Al Qaida as an organization of Muslim fundamentalists, that in secret is led by the CIA.
A really genius plan! And it has been done before in history!

During the Second World War, Dutch communist resistance fighters were parachuted above German occupied Dutch territory, while the Germans were informed about it.

Google search "Englandspiel"

The English dumped unwanted communists right into the hands of the Nazi's.

sparkey
24-02-11, 19:07
The USA wanted to get communism and socialism out of the world.
Countries like Afghanistan, Iraq, Egypt and Libya knew a political system that was rather non-Muslim and nationalistic.

How do you get a left wing government down?
By supporting Muslim fundamentalists.
And that's what the CIA did to get the Russians out of Afghanistan.

Totally. The US was in support of the Taliban until 1996 or so because they were thought to be good at preventing communism from spreading into the region, and didn't consider bin Laden a threat until 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_United_States_embassy_bombings). Oops. Not the first time, nor the last, that US foreign policy has backfired (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_%28intelligence%29).


Nowadays there has been 10 years of fighting in Afghanistan, and Osama Bin Laden is still walking a free man. Reason.. The CIA doesn't want to get him.
He probably is still payed by the CIA, to have a pretext for war.

Al Qaida as an organization of Muslim fundamentalists, that in secret is led by the CIA.
A really genius plan! And it has been done before in history!

Whoa, so it's like... 9/11 was both done by Muslim fundamentalists AND was an inside job AT THE SAME TIME!!! :petrified:

You really think that the US has consistently had enough foresight to plan this all out from the beginning? The simpler explanation is that the US didn't know what they were getting into by supporting Muslim radicals during the Cold War, that backfired, and now they're trying (largely unsuccessfully) to clean up that mess.

LeBrok
25-02-11, 03:04
Nothing new, you always support enemy of your enemy. Same way USA supported Soviet Union to win war with Germany and Japan. We know that US didn't support communism, but it looked like it till the end of the war, right?
Draw the same analogy when you say that US supports Islamic Fundamentalists. They were enlisted to help fight Soviets, but it doest mean that US supports Islamic Fundamentalism ideas.

Antigone
25-02-11, 06:24
This is true, Saddam was backed, armed and encouraged against Iran as well and there were shivers of horror throughout the Balkans when the same ploy was used in Kosovo.

Just wish there was a bit more forethought and research into local politics before such tactics are used, instead of kneejerk reactions that has everyone blundering from one self created mess to another. The arms industry must be happy, if no-one else is.

Lessons are not learnt and I think Reinaert is probably giving the CIA et al more credit that they are capable of.

LeBrok
25-02-11, 06:52
Lessons are not learnt and I think Reinaert is probably giving the CIA et al more credit that they are capable of.

No kidding. CIA are run by people and these creatures are known not to make smartest decisions, at least all the time. :rolleyes2:
Soviet Union was a big thread to US, and all means and soviet's enemies were used to fight it. Now US doesn't face a grave danger like this, and most CIA forces are turned into keeping Islamic terrorists in check. This is why there is no unified front, or much of reaction, regarding of what to do with uprisings in Middle East and North Africa. Even president Obama doesn't know what to say very often in these matters.
Yet when I watch BBC news, the journalists always ask questions or direct comments towards US to do something or say something. I had a feeling that they were confused why US doesn't do anything?
At least in BBC there is a big perception to expect global policing from USA.
For me, BBC should have direct these questions and expectation to Europe and European Union. Europe will be effected, and already is effected, more than US.

My opinion is that the uprisings, that go on right now, are exclusively internal matter of involved nations. We are welcome to give our opinions and moral support for the sides that we like, but this is it. The struggle is an internal matter of these societies to find their identity, political systems, economy, etc. We should stay on sidelines,...unless there is a terrible genocide going on.

Antigone
25-02-11, 07:32
A pity Iraq was not left to deal with it's own, as the people of Iraq would have done eventually and in a way that was best for them. Afghanistan too for that matter, the Taliban was no friend of Osama and his bunch, he was a thorn in their side and they would have dealt with him in a more expedient manner. The only thing that invasion has gained is to force both sides into a partnership, the enemy of my enemy .....

Reinaert
25-02-11, 10:34
The point is, the CIA is only part of the game. Then there is a company like Blackwater, and only Lord nows how many more. It's possible and even rational that things that happened can only be explained because in the USA there is a state behind the state.

The military-industrial complex had plenty of time to plan a false flag operation in september 2001.

There are so much smoking guns, so much lose ends. Questions that were never answered. Al Qaeda is an invention of the dark side of the USA system.
After the fall of communism, politics and corporate America needed another enemy to scare the people.

Osama Bin Laden fits in this scenario as a double agent.

Unrest in the Middle East rises the oil prices, and that is very welcome to the oil companies. They make huge profits by it.

edao
03-03-11, 19:13
Would any of you disagree that the events in Iraq have helped provoke the instability that has spilled over into full out revolution? While it main not be the main cause of the revolutions it surley has been a catalyst in creating unrest.

Reinaert
03-03-11, 19:39
Would any of you disagree that the events in Iraq have helped provoke the instability that has spilled over into full out revolution? While it main not be the main cause of the revolutions it surley has been a catalyst in creating unrest.

I don't know what to think about it anymore.
What I know, is that it stinks.

The revolutions in the Arab world seem to have little to do with the war in Iraq and Afghanistan.

It has more correlation with the high food prices.
Wheat, corn, milk products.

In my country we had elections yesterday, and people are really revolting against the pig industry.
A pig uses 30 times its weight in eating corn.
In other words.. To get 1 kilo of porc, you need 30 kilo of wheat, or other corn food. Food that is taken from the international food market.
It means that 1 kilo of porc feeding 1 person, could mean to give 30 persons enough bread of 1 kilo to survive.

That's wrong with this world.

Revolutions always start when people get hungry.

The point is, that the USA owns a big part of the international food market.. :useless:

So, they can take the initiative for any revolution where ever in the world.

barbarian
03-03-11, 23:36
they are coming back. US will be the new neighbor of EU.

there should be a new discussion "should US joın EU?" :)) and close the the topic "is EU a superpower?"

LeBrok
04-03-11, 03:17
Would any of you disagree that the events in Iraq have helped provoke the instability that has spilled over into full out revolution? While it main not be the main cause of the revolutions it surley has been a catalyst in creating unrest.

I'm still sticking to my summary as in post #5.

silkyslovanbojkovsky
02-09-13, 21:52
With potential democratic revolution sweeping across the arab world is Gerorge W. Bush to thank?

Would any of this have been possible without the war in Iraq and the fall of Sadam Hussain?

I haven't seen any modern day politician yet, that I would say is a great man. all the American politicians are really just businessmen. I think as history goes on he will be less hated, than he was during the end of his presidency. I do think that America has played a huge role in these revolutions, I wouldn't just say Bush. I think the Obama administration has played an even huger role in the recent revolutions. Is this a good thing? No I don't think so. There is only more confusion in the middle east than there was before, and more reason for radical terrorist to gain popularity in their countries and become even more dangerous. I seriously doubt these countries will become democratic from these revolutions. The U.S and some western European nations are only over there for business purposes. Take Libya for instance, Gadhafi was an ally to the U.S for like 40 years. Why did all of the sudden we care after 40 years that he was a totalitarian dictator who was causing destruction to his people, when he hadn't changed from anything he was doing earlier, and that genocides and oppressive regimes have existed and happened before yet the u.s did nothing about it? Because all the sudden guys like Gadhafi wanted to change business plans. Same with Mubarak. Same whats happening in Syria. The U.S is controlled by companies and corporations. They are the ones messing in peoples business around the world causing numerous deaths to regular people for their own interests. George Bush has played a role in this, but he is just one in many in the U.S, and Obama is no different. They U.S government is just a pawn of coorporations, and these companies are extremely evil and greedy. I think Bush, Obama and the U.S government as a whole are not great but the opposite, selfish bastards who care nothing about their people or other nations peoples. They only care about their own interests. Im an American so Im not against the people or the nation as a whole, but these companies need to be put under check in the U.S

silkyslovanbojkovsky
02-09-13, 22:02
Bush is a first class lunatic.

I don't believe in an honest government in the USA.
Companies govern that country for already 60 years.

And I don't believe the unrest in the Arab world is spontaneous.
I guess the CIA and other agents are involved.

People around the Mediterranean are usually very friendly people.
Too kind to start a revolution, because there is a revolution in another country.
It's all staged and cooked!
You are completely right, except I would not lump all people from the Mediterranean together. Ive met a lot of arabs and they can be very friendly, but they are very volatile. Ive also talked to a lot of U.S military men, who were over they and they told me, that you could go to dinner with a bunch of arabs, and they would laugh and smile and be friendly with you, and then try to kill you the same night. I feel that very much when Im with arabs.

silkyslovanbojkovsky
02-09-13, 22:09
they are coming back. US will be the new neighbor of EU.

there should be a new discussion "should US joın EU?" :)) and close the the topic "is EU a superpower?"

Yes, I agree with you. Biden was already over in Europe talking about this. They will join up to stay on top of the world economy, to keep china in check.

LeBrok
03-09-13, 08:15
It was actually French and English who attack Gadafi first. And nobody attacked Mubarak, but his own countrymen.

[QUOTE] They only care about their own interests. Im an American so Im not against the people or the nation as a whole, but these companies need to be put under check in the U.S What would happen if all the companies left US?

Funny thing is that you choose to live in US and not in poor Slovakia, which is not controlled by big business.

silkyslovanbojkovsky
04-09-13, 18:28
FYI I don't live in the U.S and French and English are allies of U.S they do nothing with out American support, and agreement. I never said companies should leave U.S. They should be put under check. Don't be so defensive,as I said in my quote Im proud to be an American, I have ancestors that have been in the U.S since before the revolution, but these companies don't give a crap about you and me or America, or the world for that matter. They need to be put under check. How can we have a sovereign government, when our nation is in debt to the federal reserve, which is a private bank. They were even discussing a couple of years ago in congress weather the U.S military should be privatized. Thank God that didn't happen. These companies want as much power as they can get, and Im not going to defend them or act like its not a problem in the U.S

Tomenable
16-09-15, 13:13
Totally. The US was in support of the Taliban until 1996 or so because they were thought to be good at preventing communism from spreading into the region, and didn't consider bin Laden a threat until 1998 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_United_States_embassy_bombings). Oops. Not the first time, nor the last, that US foreign policy has backfired (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blowback_%28intelligence%29).Nice documentary:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OI8Y0jjM0k


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5OI8Y0jjM0k

Piro Ilir
16-09-15, 13:45
FYI I don't live in the U.S and French and English are allies of U.S they do nothing with out American support, and agreement. I never said companies should leave U.S. They should be put under check. Don't be so defensive,as I said in my quote Im proud to be an American, I have ancestors that have been in the U.S since before the revolution, but these companies don't give a crap about you and me or America, or the world for that matter. They need to be put under check. How can we have a sovereign government, when our nation is in debt to the federal reserve, which is a private bank. They were even discussing a couple of years ago in congress weather the U.S military should be privatized. Thank God that didn't happen. These companies want as much power as they can get, and Im not going to defend them or act like its not a problem in the U.S
It's really sad when an American complains for his own country.

Piro Ilir
16-09-15, 13:52
With potential democratic revolution sweeping across the arab world is Gerorge W. Bush to thank?

Would any of this have been possible without the war in Iraq and the fall of Sadam Hussain?
It's too difficult making a point on that. But definitely the Iraq war was something good. A dictator less is always a good and nice thing

Piro Ilir
16-09-15, 14:00
I really wanted to believe that current ant-regime revolts are caused by political movements. It would be great and uplifting, but these are my personal feelings a freedom fighter.

History is teaching us that usually it is not the case. To get nation to stand up against autocrats surrounded by police and army, takes something more prosaic like hunger, pain, and anger. Democracy and freedoms are nice, but there is no popular revolution and sacrificing one’s life for it, at least for overwhelming majority of folks.

What all these Middle Eastern countries had in common is a big population spurt of last decades. In Egypt in last 30 years population doubled from 40 to 80 million. 70% of demographics is under age of 35. Situation is the same all over the region. You have millions upon millions of young people with nothing to do. Give them any reason to fight and you have an army. The ubiquitous TV and Internet did the trick too, showing them how young people live in first world and what they’re missing.
Granted, there was an economic progress in Middle East and Saharan Africa and lives got somewhat better during last economic boom. The problem was that population growth outpaced economy and creation of new work places. It’s really not good if 50% of young people are unemployed. All of this was brewing for years waiting for a moment to show its ugly face.
The only real question is "why now?"
I think the starting point was recent rise in food prices. In many of these countries governments subsidize many basic articles, like bread and gasoline. The current recession made holes in budgets of every country, Middle East and Africa wasn't immune. Governments lacking founds had to cut on what they subsidized or had to raise prices for these items, plus generally food became more expensive around the world. And here we go:

- army of unemployed young people
- expensive food, hungry families
- knowlage what they missing to first world, TV, Internet
- tribal and religious prosecutions and discriminations
- political forces trying to take over the power
- lack of freedoms ….................................and democracy
- someone said “It’s time, let’s go…”


If it comes to Bush, I think he was a romantic with lack of common sense. He’s vision included democracy for Middle East, but we are yet to see one fully working democracy there. Till then we are not even sure if any of these countries can manage running democratic system with all the political foundations, infrastructure, institutions, and overall will improve lives of their citizens with it.
I wish them well, but I have to see to believe.
Agree. But don't forget, that democracy is a long process. USA needed 230 year to build her own democracy. They had already a civil war. One day we will have a western democracy in middle east, but not yet. Democracy needs time. Unfortunately democracy and freedom need also many deaths and innocent blood. It's a harmful process. But there is hope. Tunisia is having already the democracy. Passing the time well will see more and more territories joining the democracy. [emoji4] . We should believe and being united

[emoji562]

Goga
16-09-15, 14:34
George W. Bush is a great man!

bicicleur
16-09-15, 16:08
George H.W. Bush was a smart man.
His son George H. Bush was the most stupid president in U.S. history.

Arab spring doesn't work.
It ends in religious and tribal wars.
Europe was as stupid as George H. Bush.
Neither Europe nor America has learned anything yet.

LABERIA
16-09-15, 18:22
Both, father and son were great presidents. But my favorit is President Regan.

LeBrok
17-09-15, 01:51
Both, father and son were great presidents. But my favorit is President Regan.
Reagan is my favorite too.

LeBrok
17-09-15, 03:39
Agree. But don't forget, that democracy is a long process. USA needed 230 year to build her own democracy. They had already a civil war. One day we will have a western democracy in middle east, but not yet. Democracy needs time. Unfortunately democracy and freedom need also many deaths and innocent blood. It's a harmful process. But there is hope. Tunisia is having already the democracy. Passing the time well will see more and more territories joining the democracy. [emoji4] . We should believe and being united

[emoji562]
I totally agree. Creation of democracy in Europe is still unfinished in few countries. This process started 200 years ago in France, got fully embraced 100 years ago by collapse of old empires of Europe and it still continues till today. It was seriously interrupted by Fascism and Communism for decades. It is surprising that anyone would expect fully democratic Meddle East right away after dictators were removed.

bicicleur
17-09-15, 10:27
Reagan is my favorite too.

that's something we agree on

bicicleur
17-09-15, 10:32
I totally agree. Creation of democracy in Europe is still unfinished in few countries. This process started 200 years ago in France, got fully embraced 100 years ago by collapse of old empires of Europe and it still continues till today. It was seriously interrupted by Fascism and Communism for decades. It is surprising that anyone would expect fully democratic Meddle East right away after dictators were removed.

if US wouldn't have send troops to Europe during WW II , fascism and communism would still be there
so what about ISIS ?
if islamic fundamentalism isn't defeated and destroyed to the bottom no chance of democracy, for the moment we need strong dictators for stability in the Middle East

LABERIA
17-09-15, 11:08
if US wouldn't have send troops to Europe during WW II , fascism and communism would still be there so what about ISIS ? if islamic fundamentalism isn't defeated and destroyed to the bottom no chance of democracy, for the moment we need strong dictators for stability in the Middle East I don't think that a couple of strong dictators is the solution for the situation. You forget something very important, after a revolution there is always a fase of transition. Also the road from dictature to democracy is not short.

Piro Ilir
17-09-15, 14:29
George H.W. Bush was a smart man.
His son George H. Bush was the most stupid president in U.S. history.

Arab spring doesn't work.
It ends in religious and tribal wars.
Europe was as stupid as George H. Bush.
Neither Europe nor America has learned anything yet.
No, Arab spring work. Freedom works either. Democracy is a long process. Do we have in Latin America a pure democracy? Not yes. USA is 240 years old. It's nonsense to think that the democracy would be built for three years in these Arab countries.

Piro Ilir
17-09-15, 14:31
Reagan is my favorite too.
I hope for a new Reagan in white house [emoji6].
The second Punic war is coming.

Piro Ilir
17-09-15, 14:40
if US wouldn't have send troops to Europe during WW II , fascism and communism would still be there
so what about ISIS ?
if islamic fundamentalism isn't defeated and destroyed to the bottom no chance of democracy, for the moment we need strong dictators for stability in the Middle East
Your are talking for ISIS like it's existing for decades. Two years is not a long period. Are you aware for how many years spread throughout Europe fascism and Nazism? You think is better Assad? Russia already is sending solders there. They are building a new military air base there. Egypt is governed for the moment by the generals, but one day even Egypt will be democratic. It's a process, up and down. Tunisia is having free elections already.

Taranis
17-09-15, 15:00
if US wouldn't have send troops to Europe during WW II , fascism and communism would still be there


Seriously, where do you take that from? Without US involvement in Europe during World War II, the most likely thing that would have happened is that the iron curtain would have extended along the Channel coast, and all of Continental Europe would have fallen under communist rule. There was no chance in hell for Hitler to win against the Soviet Union, because as things were, the Soviet Union was in a destitute condition when Nazi Germany attacked in 1941, and still Hitler lost.



so what about ISIS ?
if islamic fundamentalism isn't defeated and destroyed to the bottom no chance of democracy, for the moment we need strong dictators for stability in the Middle East


The Daeesh are doing a marvellous job of thoroughly denouncing radical Islam. They first and foremost, kill other Muslims. Give it a couple of decades, and the pendulum will swing in the opposite direction (Richard Dawkins type atheism, the foundation for that is already happening (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/03/gulf-atheism-uae-islam-religion.html)). In my opinion, the whole "middle easterners can't understand democracy, the best thing for the Middle East is dictatorship" routine is one of the key factors that allowed radical Islam to grow and expand in the past 60 or so years. Imagine that somebody would have said the same about the Germans in 1945?

bicicleur
17-09-15, 15:09
Your are talking for ISIS like it's existing for decades. Two years is not a long period. Are you aware for how many years spread throughout Europe fascism and Nazism? You think is better Assad? Russia already is sending solders there. They are building a new military air base there. Egypt is governed for the moment by the generals, but one day even Egypt will be democratic. It's a process, up and down. Tunisia is having free elections already.

islamic fundamentalism, al qaida, al shabab, boko haram .. is existing for decades
ISIS is the new kid on the block

Tunisia democracy won't last, it is very easy to destabilize, Tunisia depends on tourism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Sousse_attacks

Assad is a war criminal, but what do you think would happen if he were eliminated tomorrow?
ISIS is just waiting for that to happen.

What would you think if general Sisi were not in Egypt?
ISIS is just waiting for that to happen.

Democracy took 500 years to happen in Europe.
Do you want to wait that long?

bicicleur
17-09-15, 15:15
Seriously, where do you take that from? Without US involvement in Europe during World War II, the most likely thing that would have happened is that the iron curtain would have extended along the Channel coast, and all of Continental Europe would have fallen under communist rule. There was no chance in hell for Hitler to win against the Soviet Union, because as things were, the Soviet Union was in a destitute condition when Nazi Germany attacked in 1941, and still Hitler lost.

so you would have prefered Stalin over Hitler?

it's what I told , fascism and communism would still be there

bicicleur
17-09-15, 15:17
Imagine that somebody would have said the same about the Germans in 1945?

well, why not give ISIS and all fumdamentalist movements worldwide the same treatment as the Germans at WW II ?

Taranis
17-09-15, 15:42
Democracy took 500 years to happen in Europe.
Do you want to wait that long?

Radical Islam as we know and loathe it today didn't take 500 years to appear. Its a development of the past century (starting out with the carving up of the Ottoman Empire by the Entente powers).


so you would have prefered Stalin over Hitler?


I never talked about what I prefer, I talked about what would likely have happened. I said what would have happened without US involvement in World War II. Truth be told, I'm tired of the clientele of commenters that Fox News digs up with a high level of regularity that proudly claim on screen "if it wasn't for us (the US), you (Europe) would be all speaking German". History is not simple, nor is it ever black-and-white.



it's what I told , fascism and communism would still be there


No. There are two primary reasons why Hitler was defeated: the preserverance of the British and the strategic depth and massive resources of the Soviet Union, both factors which Hitler immensely underestimated. The UK could have surrendered after the fiasco at Dunkirk, but they didn't. The US does not deserve much credit for defeating Hitler in World War II. They were not a game changer with that, and I am sure that fascism would not be around without the US involvement. They deserve, however, credit for the iron curtain running as far east as it did historically (as I described).

(my apologies for taking this off-topic)

LeBrok
17-09-15, 16:36
if US wouldn't have send troops to Europe during WW II , fascism and communism would still be there
so what about ISIS ?
if islamic fundamentalism isn't defeated and destroyed to the bottom no chance of democracy, for the moment we need strong dictators for stability in the Middle East
I'm for EU boots on the ground to finish Daesh. Even though I know it will create political vacuum and perhaps new ethnic conflicts.

oriental
17-09-15, 21:41
Even though I don't think too much of IQ which tests classroom intelligence or similated or lab constructs of the real world, like Alfred (?) Binet created IQ tests for French soldiers. Look at how well the French military has performed. The Maginot Line? Ha, ha.

Well anyway with my rant about IQ tests out of the way here is a ranking of US presidents on IQ.

http://us-presidents.insidegov.com/stories/5392/least-intelligent-presidents

http://us-presidents.insidegov.com/stories/5392/least-intelligent-presidents#12-George-W-Bush

Angela
17-09-15, 23:16
Even though I don't think too much of IQ which tests classroom intelligence or similated or lab constructs of the real world, like Alfred (?) Binet created IQ tests for French soldiers. Look at how well the French military has performed. The Maginot Line? Ha, ha.

Well any with my rant about IQ tests out of the way here is a ranking of US presidents on IQ.

http://us-presidents.insidegov.com/stories/5392/least-intelligent-presidents

http://us-presidents.insidegov.com/stories/5392/least-intelligent-presidents#12-George-W-Bush

This is supposed to be a forum where people discuss scientific or otherwise "vetted" evidence of some sort. The people who put this on the web are political ideologues who have no freaking clue what the IQ of various Presidents might have been because there are, to my knowledge, no such records that we can access.

Grades in college are some evidence, although if somebody spends most of his time in college partying, that will affect grades. On the other side of the spectrum, there are over achievers who get very good grades without being very intelligent.

Along this vein, John Kerry, whom Democrats lauded as an intellect compared to George W Bush, got worse grades at Harvard than Bush did at Yale.

If I were going to guess, Jimmy Carter, who was a nuclear engineer, may have had a higher IQ than many of our Presidents. He was, in my opinion, one of the worst presidents we ever had. Truman was a haberdasher, and did a pretty good job.

So long as someone has a base IQ of about 120-130 (rough guess), other factors are more important, in my opinion, like the ability to communicate and inspire and persuade, a calm temperament, the ability to handle stress, and leadership skills. Of course, sound opinions on economics and world affairs are also important.

LeBrok
18-09-15, 01:32
So long as someone has a base IQ of about 120-130 (rough guess), other factors are more important, in my opinion, like the ability to communicate and inspire and persuade, a calm temperament, the ability to handle stress, and leadership skills. Of course, sound opinions on economics and world affairs are also important. I agree, Angela.

oriental
18-09-15, 01:57
This website is a respectable website showing how governments spend our money. They are not political hacks. If you have issue with their estimates you could go to them change them. I am sure there are qualified psychologists doing the estimates. Don't forget GWB caused this Great Recession in 2007.


Inside Government helps you stay informed and up to date with the main issues of the day, providing a platform for discussion, debate, and vital information sharing.

Inside Government presents a series of interactive, information led and exclusive forums and events. These focus on a range of government policy fields, and are designed for people working in the public, private and third sectors. Each event provides attendees with a unique opportunity to discuss pertinent topics with a panel of speakers, policy experts, and fellow delegates.Inside Government has unrivalled access to a wide range of expert speakers. These include politicians, policy-makers, sector experts and practitioners, and all possess extensive knowledge and experience in their respective fields.Inside Government is a division of GovNet Communications (http://www.govnet.co.uk/), and plays a vital role in expansion of the portfolio of services that GovNet offers. http://www.insidegovernment.co.uk/images/design/cpd-logo.pngCPD Certified

All Inside Government events are CPD certified. CPD (Continuing Professional Development) certification represents commitment to lifelong learning and refers to the process of tracking and documenting skills, knowledge and experience that an individual gains both formally and personally beyond their initial training. It is becoming increasing important for employers and institutions from all disciplines to demonstrate and provide evidence that they have in place a structured approach to staff development and learning with clear career objectives. Inside Government offers employers an opportunity to broaden and deepen their knowledge and keep up to date on a wide range of subjects and issues. Visit www.cpduk.co.uk (http://www.cpduk.co.uk/) to find out more about The CPD Certification Service


This is the 'Inside government' in the UK.

http://www.insidegovernment.co.uk/about-us


IG TeamKen ArmstrongKen Armstrong is a writer for Stage, Radio and (soon) Film but that’s only by night – by day he runs his small architectural-services practice with his working-partner Anthony Reape. Ken has been a keen observer of American matters from across the water for practically all of his 45 years, both from his home in Ireland – where he is now settled – and from all the other places where he has spent time throughout his life. He is on-board to provide an occasional ‘outside-looking-in view’ on Amercian Governmental matters. Expect equal measures of ignorance and honesty in his contributions._____________________________Mike Cavin_____________________________Josh GillespieJoshua Gillespie, a graduate of Purdue University, has been involved in politics for some time working in Washington, D.C. and in Indiana. He now resides in the Indianapolis area where he is President of Gillespie Total Strategies, LLC and is married with two children. You can read more of Josh’s bio at www.gillespietotalstrategies.com (http://www.gillespietotalstrategies.com/)._____________________________Jeff Hagen_____________________________Zee HarrisonI am a black woman born in the UK yet consider myself an ‘internationalist’ – someone who doesn’t feel restricted nor emboldened by borders or affiliations of any kind.I have worked in various countries in different positions: management, creative arts, policy making and worked on a self-employed basis within my own businesses. I am an intrepid traveler who is fascinated by social and cultural customs and norms.I may be the only contributor here who does not believe in any form of the supernatural, i.e. no belief in any god or gods, witches, goblins, heaven, hell, afterlife, ghosts, and so on. Makes for some interesting conversations, at least! I write about such things on my blog: black woman thinks (http://blackwomanthinks.blogspot.com/).Inside Government is a wonderful idea which is sorely needed – it is addressing the fundamental information gaps within the US populace: how government functions and why. Although my background is not based in the US political arena I aim to approach things as an outsider – a position I have much experience of!My contributions here will be monthly and no doubt asking more questions than answering them. I will also use comparisons, where relevant, with the British system of government and how things might be improved.Just for balance here, I would not describe myself as a conservative, nor am I pro either major political party. Governments should serve the people and not vice versa. If people are encouraged to remain ignorant then it is difficult for them to challenge decisions which may be harmful to their rights, their liberty and their freedoms._____________________________David LambWhen not posting on Killer Buffalo (http://www.killerbuffalo.com/) or attending high school, David writes for Grind Mode Magazine and The Political Inquirer. David endorsed and campaigned for Former Alaskan Senator Mike Gravel until his 2008 presidential bid ended in defeat. He did not endorse another presidential candidate._____________________________Matt M.I am a 45 year old single male born in Fort Worth, Texas and currently living in the suburbs north of Dallas, Texas. I come from a large, very close-knit family, most of whom still live in north Texas but range as far as California and Edmonton, Alberta, Canada. Together, we represent a typical cross section of Americana in our careers, beliefs and diversity. Personally, I have a background in management, both within a large publicly traded corporation and in small, family owned businesses.My immediate family is, and has always been, conservative and I am no exception, although I have never considered myself a hard-line party member. I believe in supporting the candidate whose beliefs, morals, family values and plans for the future of our country most closely reflect my own, despite his or her party affiliation. The fact that I have always voted Republican is a reflection, in my opinion, of the direction the Democratic party has taken over the last thirty to forty years as much as it is a reflection of my views aligning with those of Republican candidates.However, this site is not about party affiliations or personal agendas. It’s sole purpose is to become a resource for those who would like to become more involved in the voting process, the political process in general and who would like to be more knowledgeable in how our government works. After all, if we hope to affect real change in the way our system of government works we must all educate ourselves in the laws and system of government that we expect our politicians to uphold when we elect them to public office. Knowledge is power, and the more we educate ourselves the more powerful we become.It is in this spirit that I, like my fellow bloggers assembled in this impressive group, will report on a factual, rather than personal, basis the rules and laws that make up our system of government and how they might affect our lives in terms of current events. It is my hope that when events occur in our government that threaten to affect change in our lives, whether in a positive or negative manner, this site will provide the means of understanding those changes and what they might mean to each of us. After all, if we are well-informed then we are well-equipped._____________________________Bob O.I am 44 years young, married with 6 children (2 are hers, 2 are mine, and 2 are ours), and a very staunch conservative. My father was in the U.S. Army for 23 years starting his career off in Viet Nam. After he retired from the Army, I served in the U.S. Air Force for 6 years as an Airborne Hebrew Cryptologic Linguist flying around on the RC-135 Rivet Joint Reconnaissance platform. My primary responsibility was the Middle-East and Israeli Tactical Air. Having this background, I am also very pro-military and have a unique perspective regarding the Middle-East.After leaving the Air Force I worked in various positions related to health care in various organizations: I was a claims processor and supervisor for a large national health insurer; a billing manager for a large national clinical laboratory; a litigation consultant for a large international accounting firm; and a health care consultant specializing in qui tam lawsuits and compliance for a large national consulting firm.I currently work for a large multi-state physician group practice and am in my second year of working on a Ph.D. in Public Health specializing in Epidemiology. What I hope to bring to this blog is my experience, knowledge, and research abilities in order to provide a non-partisan look at our government for those who are seeking answers. While I may lean conservative, I am a firm believer in our Constitution and Bill of Rights and will look to answer any inquiries or provide answers based on a strict interpretation of the Constitution without personal opinion._____________________________Matthew S. Urdan- See more at: http://www.insidegov.org/?page_id=3#sthash.eoa5vIlH.dpuf

http://www.insidegov.org/?page_id=

Angela
18-09-15, 02:38
I'll repeat...you can't "estimate" IQ. An educational psychologist can't watch you give a speech or even look at your grades and come up with a number. SAT scores might get you closer, but even they aren't reliable, assuming you could get access to someone's SAT scores, and if such testing was even available when they were alive, because so much of the test is "learned".

So, this listing is totally unreliable. The only way to get a reliable "IQ" score is for a certified educational psychologist to sit down with someone for hours giving tests of digit recall, audio processing, visual processing etc. Barring that, a written IQ test given by such a psychologist would do. Those tests are very recent. Even for recent presidents, IF they were given, which most likely they were not (the only time a school might request permission to do so would be either to put a child into "gifted" programs, 150 or above, or because they suspect a major learning disability) they are privileged and the results would not be released. If some investigative reporter had ever gotten a look at them, it would have been front page news, as it was when they got the transcripts for both Kerry and Bush.

oriental
18-09-15, 02:46
I agree that an estimate is really an educated guess. But with GWB it is a very good guess. His removal of Saddam Hussein which set the ball rolling for 'regime change' got us this refugees problem and the whole of Eupedia is front and center about illegal migrants. Can you not see the connection about who the dolt is who started this?

LeBrok
18-09-15, 03:09
I agree that an estimate is really an educated guess. But with GWB it is a very guess. His removal of Saddam Hussein which set the ball rolling for 'regime change' got us this refugees problem and the whole of Eupedia is front and center about illegal migrants. Can you not see the connection about who the dolt is who started this?He just accelerated the process. Dictators don't last forever. A recent case of Syria or Egypt are indicators of the imminent changes. The outcome turned different in Egypt than in Syria. However it is not the end of the hoopla. More to come from Near East.

Piro Ilir
18-09-15, 21:19
islamic fundamentalism, al qaida, al shabab, boko haram .. is existing for decades
ISIS is the new kid on the block

Tunisia democracy won't last, it is very easy to destabilize, Tunisia depends on tourism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015_Sousse_attacks

Assad is a war criminal, but what do you think would happen if he were eliminated tomorrow?
ISIS is just waiting for that to happen.

What would you think if general Sisi were not in Egypt?
ISIS is just waiting for that to happen.

Democracy took 500 years to happen in Europe.
Do you want to wait that long?
I think is no need to wait 500 years. With the right help and the right support from USA, we will have there the democracy.
Al Qaeda, was an organization, otherwise is ISIS. It would be good for the freedom if Assad go away. Today Egypt is better than was during Mubarak. If these dictators will be pro Americans, sooner or later we will have there the democracy. Greece embraced the democracy only afterward 1974 . Either Turkey had many coups, but now they are making elections. First we need in middle east some democratic reforms. Step by step we are gonna built there the democracy. The main problem there is Russia. ISIS is a joke. The real problem are the Russians, Hezbollah and Iran. Russia already is sending troops there. Hezbollah is already there. Is going to be a big mess. All Qaeda can't defeat the NATO. Isis can't defeat the NATO. But the Russian- Chinese alliance yes. The problem is that Obama talks and Putin moves .
The inhabitants of middle east are like the other people of the world. Everyone deserve the democracy and freedom. This is up and down process. Look on Japan today. What it was in the past, and what is already today.

Piro Ilir
18-09-15, 21:29
Seriously, where do you take that from? Without US involvement in Europe during World War II, the most likely thing that would have happened is that the iron curtain would have extended along the Channel coast, and all of Continental Europe would have fallen under communist rule. There was no chance in hell for Hitler to win against the Soviet Union, because as things were, the Soviet Union was in a destitute condition when Nazi Germany attacked in 1941, and still Hitler lost.





The Daeesh are doing a marvellous job of thoroughly denouncing radical Islam. They first and foremost, kill other Muslims. Give it a couple of decades, and the pendulum will swing in the opposite direction (Richard Dawkins type atheism, the foundation for that is already happening (http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/originals/2014/03/gulf-atheism-uae-islam-religion.html)). In my opinion, the whole "middle easterners can't understand democracy, the best thing for the Middle East is dictatorship" routine is one of the key factors that allowed radical Islam to grow and expand in the past 60 or so years. Imagine that somebody would have said the same about the Germans in 1945?
You think that middle eastern people are different by the rest of the world. You mean their DNA has a problem? Do you ever heard about Babylon?

Do you know that the German industry was superior against the industry of Soviet union. The Russian war industry was supported by the American British industry. Germans already were fighting in Africa against Britain and USA. The German defeat by the Russians is rather a legend.

Piro Ilir
18-09-15, 21:30
so you would have prefered Stalin over Hitler?

it's what I told , fascism and communism would still be there
Both were destroyed by USA. But we need the second Punic war [emoji6]

Piro Ilir
18-09-15, 21:32
well, why not give ISIS and all fumdamentalist movements worldwide the same treatment as the Germans at WW II ?
You already have a caliphate. Iran.

Piro Ilir
18-09-15, 21:37
Radical Islam as we know and loathe it today didn't take 500 years to appear. Its a development of the past century (starting out with the carving up of the Ottoman Empire by the Entente powers).




I never talked about what I prefer, I talked about what would likely have happened. I said what would have happened without US involvement in World War II. Truth be told, I'm tired of the clientele of commenters that Fox News digs up with a high level of regularity that proudly claim on screen "if it wasn't for us (the US), you (Europe) would be all speaking German". History is not simple, nor is it ever black-and-white.





No. There are two primary reasons why Hitler was defeated: the preserverance of the British and the strategic depth and massive resources of the Soviet Union, both factors which Hitler immensely underestimated. The UK could have surrendered after the fiasco at Dunkirk, but they didn't. The US does not deserve much credit for defeating Hitler in World War II. They were not a game changer with that, and I am sure that fascism would not be around without the US involvement. They deserve, however, credit for the iron curtain running as far east as it did historically (as I described).

(my apologies for taking this off-topic)
Churchill purpose was not stopping till they get to Moscow, but Roosevelt disagreed with him unfortunately.

Piro Ilir
18-09-15, 21:43
I'm for EU boots on the ground to finish Daesh. Even though I know it will create political vacuum and perhaps new ethnic conflicts.
Yes, and after Assad and his guys from Russia and Iran could keep Syria and Iraq. No way. Even the most weak state can defeat the ISIS. We should not leave Iraq and Syria under the control of Iran and Russia. Russians should be out of there

Piro Ilir
18-09-15, 21:51
I agree that an estimate is really an educated guess. But with GWB it is a very guess. His removal of Saddam Hussein which set the ball rolling for 'regime change' got us this refugees problem and the whole of Eupedia is front and center about illegal migrants. Can you not see the connection about who the dolt is who started this?
If you ask me I hope that Obama allows the Israel to send some bombings onto Iran. Bush was a great president. He was not allowed to finish his job.

Piro Ilir
18-09-15, 21:53
He just accelerated the process. Dictators don't last forever. A recent case of Syria or Egypt are indicators of the imminent changes. The outcome turned different in Egypt than in Syria. However it is not the end of the hoopla. More to come from Near East.
Come on. Look at to Japan. It's a wonderful country today. Freedom works.
God bless USA.
[emoji631] [emoji636] [emoji629] [emoji627]

Yetos
18-09-15, 22:24
He just accelerated the process. Dictators don't last forever. A recent case of Syria or Egypt are indicators of the imminent changes. The outcome turned different in Egypt than in Syria. However it is not the end of the hoopla. More to come from Near East.

middle East is not Europe,
there is big difference,
an Armagedon can start from there,
we do not play with middle East and China today,

EMPIRES AND RELIGIOUS STATES DROP FROM INSIDE,
NOT FROM OUTSIDE,

Taranis
18-09-15, 23:51
You think that middle eastern people are different by the rest of the world. You mean their DNA has a problem? Do you ever heard about Babylon?


I said exactly the opposite:

In my opinion, the whole (...) routine is one of the key factors that allowed radical Islam to grow and expand in the past 60 or so years.


By that 'routine' I meant the US (or the West in general) propping up of despots like Saddam Hussein and Hosni Mubarak because they believed that was the lesser evil. Following the demise of Pan-Arabism, by denying the prospect of democracy, the West inadvertedly stood by while radical Islam promoted itself as a viable alternative.



Do you know that the German industry was superior against the industry of Soviet union. The Russian war industry was supported by the American British industry. Germans already were fighting in Africa against Britain and USA. The German defeat by the Russians is rather a legend.


Tell me, how many British and US soldiers fought at Kursk or Stalingrad (hint: not a single one)? Which country had the most casualties and had to pay the dearest price for victory against Nazi Germany (hint: the Soviet Union). Regarding American support, yes, lend-lease existed, but I think that it contributed comparably little to the Soviet war effort (perhaps with exception of the trucks provided by Lend-lease)- they only sped up the inevitable. But at that point (late 1941) it should be added that the British and Americans were overtly pessimistic how the Soviet Union would fare against Nazi Germany, which was one of the key factors for the Soviet Union to be included in lend-lease.

Of course we all know that Joseph Stalin was a nightmarish despot in his own right, but the Soviet Union made the biggest contribution towards defeating Nazi Germany, in particular in terms of fielding manpower and in terms of casualties.



You already have a caliphate. Iran.


Shia Islam doesn't do the "caliphate". Unless you count Ali, the fourth of the Rashidun caliphs (which is regarded with special providence in Shia Islam).



Churchill purpose was not stopping till they get to Moscow, but Roosevelt disagreed with him unfortunately.


Its called Operation Unthinkable, because that's what it would have ammounted to: doing the unthinkable. Churchill had the charming idea of re-arming German war-criminals against the Soviet Union. Basically World War III at the conclusion of World War II, a really great idea. We can all be thankful that this was cancelled off.

LABERIA
19-09-15, 20:03
So British and American soldiers have to fight in Kursk and Stalingrad because Stalin and Hitler did not respect the agreements that were signed between them?

Piro Ilir
21-09-15, 20:10
middle East is not Europe,
there is big difference,
an Armagedon can start from there,
we do not play with middle East and China today,

EMPIRES AND RELIGIOUS STATES DROP FROM INSIDE,
NOT FROM OUTSIDE,
We all know that middle east is not Europe, but despite this, everyone needs freedom.
I'm for the second Punic war. Let it be.

Piro Ilir
21-09-15, 20:43
Taranis,
1- no one of those dictators you just mentioned was akin with Pinochet. We need there dictators who agree with USA and implement there the democratic reforms step by step, like Pinochet did in Chile.
2- Luftwaffe was destroyed by the USA and the British air fleet. If the German Luftwaffe was as a whole against the Soviets, Germany was the winner. If you have a superior air force you win the war. All the rest are fairytales romantic propaganda. USA bombed everything in Germany. They destroyed the whole military fabrics.
3- the Islam republic of Iran has already many Islamic laws by the sharia constitution . The ayatollah is the supreme leader. The president can't be elected without the permission of the ayatollah. This state is ruled by the holy imams, and is almost anti democratic. Every woman should be covered. For me it's a sort of caliphate, no matter what they calls it.
The imam Ali was the last of the right caliphs afterward the death of prophet.
5- I disagree about Churchill. For me it was a good idea. His idea was to continue the marching till they defeat the Soviets. Just imagine how could be the world today . USA and British armies were much superior than the Soviets, during that time. Soviets provided the atomic bomb only in 1951 if I remember well. Someone help me with this. USA had the a much more air force than the Soviets