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adamo
18-12-13, 18:03
No I am correct that's what I meant; the Balkanic I2a2. Again, in response to your Slavic theories of I2a2; you are wrong. The Slavs arrived much later; long after the Illyrians; they may have conquested and merged with/imposed their culture/language on the indigenous men of the region but If language is your only argument you've already failed.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 18:05
Sorry for my writing errors, i am writing on my ipad.

adamo
18-12-13, 18:08
Me too lol and it's o.k. , : ) but I strongly disagree with a Slavic origin of I2a; i2a is much younger in Moldova for example than in Czech Republic/Slovakia or Bosnia/Croatia.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 18:17
Me too lol and it's o.k. , : ) but I strongly disagree with a Slavic origin of I2a; i2a is much younger in Moldova for example than in Czech Republic/Slovakia or Bosnia/Croatia.

I quote again pls read before reply:
The second great expansion of I2a-Din took place with the Slavic migration in the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages. I2a-Din had started to mix with Proto-Indo-Euroepan. (Source eupedia i2)


Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age (source eupedia i2a).


Cumulative effect of bronze age and early iron age and the medieval slavic migration. That is the reason of high percentage of i2a in slavic countries. And we have to consider here more the slavic migration for their i2a because of the fact of their slavic language which shows that the majority of their i2a was probably because of slavic otherwise they would have resisted and not speak a slavic language.

consider cumulative effect i dont say that there are no i2a of illyrians but the high percentage is more an indicator for the slavic migration.

Reason:
1. slavic language
2. Slavic migration happend recently (considered historically) which is a strong argument for the high percentage.
3. it cannot be that illyrians cared with them only i2a, considering E-V13 in the balkans for a longer period of time approximately 6000 years b.c.

All my info is from eupedia.

adamo
18-12-13, 18:20
I2a peaks in extreme northwestern Balkans. E-V13 on Greece, south-central Albania, southern Serbia etc. it's not exactly the same location. I don't find any of those to be up debatable reasons actually. Greece, Albania, Macedonia and southern Serbia have 20-30% E-V13 with a peak of 30% across pretty much all of Albania. Greece has 20-25%. Same for Macedonia. Serbia has more 15-18% with the north having as low as 10%. Bulgaria has more like 15% nationally maybe the same for Romania as well.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 18:25
I2a peaks in extreme northwestern Balkans. E-V13 on Greece, south-central Albania, southern Serbia etc. it's not exactly the same location. I don't find any of those to be up debatable reasons actually.

Yes and illyria wasn't only on northwestern balkan, considering that king agron king genti and also queen teuta king bardyllis were reigning more on the region of shkodra todays albania,

see kings and queens of illyria on wikipedia

adamo
18-12-13, 18:28
About 15-25% of Albanian males are I-M423 today, indicating a fraction of them may very well have been Illyrians; the levels are higher than in Greece but are still present there too.

Garrick
18-12-13, 18:32
R1a in Balkans is very, very old. According some authors older than 10,000 years. Today's Balkans I2a is much younger than R1a. R1a and I2a speak same language. Probably there was a period when the number of I2a carriers was small (possible in the part of today's Romania). I2a carriers lived together with R1a carriers and merged together (it is possible that R1a carriers took the language from I2a carriers but probability is very very small). So, correctly observed, I2a and R1a are always in pair, in other words both I2a and R1a are Illyrians, Thracians, Slavs etc.

adamo
18-12-13, 18:37
No. I completely disagree for all the reasons I've previously stated. R1a has not been in the Balkans for 'over ten thousand years" it would have been in the Ukrainian refuge or the western Russian plains. Stop trying to merge them dude, the Illyrians and their derivatives evolved very separately from the Slavs for a very long time before merging much more recently in southeastern Europe. Very frequently conquerors impose language and culture on others; it doesn't always mean a shared origin.

Garrick
18-12-13, 18:43
No. I completely disagree for all the reasons I've previously stated. R1a has not been in the Balkans for 'over ten thousand years" it would have been in the Ukrainian refuge or the western Russian plains. Stop trying to merge them dude, the Illyrians and their derivatives evolved very separately from the Slavs for a very long time before merging much more recently in southeastern Europe. Very frequently conquerors impose language and culture on others; it doesn't always mean a shared origin.

Scientists in renowned science journals write that R1a is the oldest haplogroup in Balkans, older than 10,000 years.

adamo
18-12-13, 18:45
No, I2a is. R1a arrived more recently, via the Ukrainian refuge. Whereas I2a finds it's ultimate spread point from the Bosnian refuge.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 18:46
About 15-25% of Albanian males are I-M423 today, indicating a fraction of them may very well have been Illyrians; the levels are higher than in Greece but are still present there too.

Yes sure your right, but considering that illyrians reigned from todays shkodra, and considering that more ancient tribes of illyrians were in todays albanian speaking regions (see wiki illyrian tribes) shouldn't there be more illyrians in todays albanian speaking regions, due to the fact that this region together with greece according to eupedia could resist best slavic invasion, and the fact that slavic population came from north, which surely rather would press illyrians south in the balkans rather than north from south, and the fact that albanians and greeks dont have a slavic language. So there could be only one possibility that illyrians cared with them i2a and e-v13 and probably also j2b. And that todays south slavs i2a is a mixture of ancient and medieval slavic tribes. Not according to me but accordingt to eupedia.

adamo
18-12-13, 18:56
Again, re-read my previous posts, thanks. The Illyrians carried neither J2b nor E-V13. I explained the spread of E-V13 and J2b also peaks in southernmost Balkans.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 19:03
Ok one question you want to say that i2a of todays south slavs is illyrian i2a? Considering that slavs carried also the i2a in them?

adamo
18-12-13, 19:04
They didn't; they mixed with pre-indo-Europeans in the Balkans later. The original Bosnian refuge men where I2a, not R1a. Even E-V13 has more chances of being Bosnian refuge, which it probably isn't, because it is Neolithic. We all know of the Slavic migrations depicted to us; just I2a-M423 wasn't among them.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 19:05
They didn't; they mixed with pre-indo-Europeans in the Balkans later.

Now we are talking the same language thanks.

adamo
18-12-13, 19:06
I meant the men of R1a, read properly. Again, as I stated, the R1a men did not travel hand in hand with I2a men from the Ukrainian refuge; capish? The I2a men were already in the Balkans.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 19:10
I meant the men of R1a, read properly. Again, as I stated, the R1a men did not travel hand in hand with I2a men from the Ukrainian refuge; capish?
But c'mon its a fact that slavic invasion carried with them r1a and also i2a read on eupedia. So they mixed with i2a of the balkan illyrians. Its not my invention its a fact. Pls read i2 haplogroup on eupedia the full article pls.

adamo
18-12-13, 19:12
I will refrain from commenting from this point on, I have voiced my opinion and deep belief; thank you. Time for others to speak up now and give their research/thoughts.

Garrick
18-12-13, 19:12
No, I2a is. R1a arrived more recently, via the Ukrainian refuge. Whereas I2a finds it's ultimate spread point from the Bosnian refuge.

No, Balkans I2a2 Dyn N and Dyn S are much younger than R1a. It is known fact.

You can see how old is I2a2 Dinaric at Ken Nordtvedt:

http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf

Or you can read in Family Tree DNA:

"The Dinaric founder was probably in the Balkans or Danube basin. The age of I2a2-Dinaric was estimated at 3600 years, then adjusted to 2550 years,"

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=results

Ok, we can debate, generally carriers of haplogroup I were long, very long in the Balkans, but I carriers moved, but scientific findings for I2a2-Dinaric are such.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 19:21
I will refrain from commenting from this point on, I have voiced my opinion and deep belief; thank you. Time for others to speak up now and give their research/thoughts.

After being Indo-Europeanized, I2a-L621 would have become the dominant paternal lineage among southern Slavs, while R1a remained dominant among northern Slavs.

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations

Cumulative effect of bronze age and early iron age and the medieval slavic migration. That is the reason of high percentage of i2a in slavic countries. And we have to consider here more the slavic migration for their i2a because of the fact of their slavic language which shows that the majority of their i2a was probably because of slavic otherwise they would have resisted and not speak a slavic language.


consider cumulative effect i dont say that there are no i2a of illyrians but the high percentage is more an indicator for the slavic migration.
consider cumulative effect i dont say that there are no i2a of illyrians in that region but the high percentage is more an indicator for the slavic migration.


Reason:
1. slavic language
2. Slavic migration happend recently (considered historically) which is a strong argument for the high percentage.
3. it cannot be that illyrians cared with them only i2a, considering E-V13 in the balkans for a longer period of time approximately 6000 years b.c.

Info eupedia.

Garrick
18-12-13, 19:23
Ok one question you want to say that i2a of todays south slavs is illyrian i2a? Considering that slavs carried also the i2a in them?

Illyrians, Thracians, Slavs, all were R1a and I2a carriers.

In South Illyria lived E-V13 carriers (of course and in another locations, but the inhabitants of Illyria mostly were R1a and I2a, there are debate that Illyria and Illyricum were geographic terms for Greeks and Romans).

R1a is probably the oldest haplogroup in the Balkans from existed, older than 10,000 years BC, for example you can read American scientists Regueiro et al:

High levels of Paleolithic Y-chromosome lineages characterize Serbia.

Garrick
18-12-13, 19:25
But c'mon its a fact that slavic invasion carried with them r1a and also i2a. So they mixed with i2a of the balkan illyrians. Its not my invention its a fact.

Which facts?

Do you read scientific papers in renowated scientific Journals or yellow press?

adamo
18-12-13, 19:29
No. The Illyrians, thracians, Dacians were ONlY I2a; separate from Slavs. The Slavic indo-European element arrived later. As for E-v13 and J2b they are more relevant to the ancient Greco-Albanian world; never having penetrated as north as Illyria in considerable frequency. Northern Albania though, WAS within the Illyrian sphere of influence, as Slovenia was to the north. We can imagine offshoots of Illyrians would also have went to Romania, parts of Greece or Hungary as well for example; they spread around regions such as Moldova or Ukraine as well, at much lower frequencies (5-15%). Nevertheless, they radiated from the Bosnian refuge as they had already been in Europe with the other men of I before that fatal LGM took place; they did not enter Europe during the Slavic conquest era with R1a men via the Ukrainian refuge r western plains of Russia; that would be false.

Garrick
18-12-13, 19:36
No. The Illyrians, thracians, Dacians were ONlY I2a; separate from Slavs. The Slavic indo-European element arrived later. As for R-v13 and J2b they are more relevant to the ancient Greco-Albanian world; never having penetrated as north as Illyria in considerable frequency

The things are not so simple.

Sile
18-12-13, 19:40
IMO

- Illyrians tribes are all different to each other and had no language similarities, the illyrians where created between Eastern austria and hungaria, sometimes the pannonians of hungarian soil are know as Illyrians. written History states they invaded the balkans from the north and slowly took land to finally be stopped by the macedonians of Alexander the great times. They did not participate in alexanders Persian wars because they where not "greek" . The epirotes of northern greece and albania went to fight the Persians with Alexander. The illyrians where absorbed by celtic migrations from the alps. the celts got as far as greece. Basically by the time the Romans arrived and Queen teuta fought them, the illyrians where a minor nuisance to the Romans, it was only their piracy thats was an issue. They where R1b in majority with some G.

- The thracians if we include the Dacians, Getae and their relatives the cimmerians where the most populous, I believe they brought I2a2 into the balkans after the scythians arrived on the northern parts of the black sea. The thracians would have also had the E and J markers. ( i am usure on any R but maybe as per mr. hammer it would be L11 from modern Bulgaria) The cimmerians fled to the plains of hungaria and serbia in 700BC ( not earlier)

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 19:43
No. The Illyrians, thracians, Dacians were ONlY I2a; separate from Slavs. The Slavic indo-European element arrived later. As for E-v13 and J2b they are more relevant to the ancient Greco-Albanian world; never having penetrated as north as Illyria in considerable frequency. Northern Albania though, WAS within the Illyrian sphere of influence, as Slovenia was to the north. We can imagine offshoots of Illyrians would also have went to Romania, parts of Greece or Hungary as well for example; they spread around regions such as Moldova or Ukraine as well, at much lower frequencies (5-15%). Nevertheless, they radiated from the Bosnian refuge as they had already been in Europe with the other men of I before that fatal LGM took place; they did not enter Europe during the Slavic conquest era with R1a men via the Ukrainian refuge r western plains of Russia; that would be false.

Honestly i am done here you CLEARLY didnt read once i2 haplogroup the whole article on eupedia, ehich states CLEARLY that it also IS CONNECTED with the slavic invasion. ukraine 21% i2a poland and czech republic 9% and also belarus and russia has i2a and also other slavic countries.

adamo
18-12-13, 19:53
Pannonians where simply celticized Illyrians, the Illyrians were I2a2 and the Dacians and thracians derived from them; the original and still today inhabitants of the Dalmatian coast before the arrival of Slavs and then to a lesser degree celts.

Garrick
18-12-13, 19:58
No, I2a is. R1a arrived more recently, via the Ukrainian refuge. Whereas I2a finds it's ultimate spread point from the Bosnian refuge.

Scientists found three key movement R1a to Balkans:

1) Recolonization from the refugium, Ukrainen (geography) link 20,000-12,000 years ago; in the Balkans in Paleolithic or early Holocene,
2) Migrations from the Pontic steppe (Kurgan culture), from 3000 BC,
3) Slavic migrations, 5th-7th centuries.

Garrick
18-12-13, 20:03
IMO

- Illyrians tribes are all different to each other and had no language similarities, the illyrians where created between Eastern austria and hungaria, sometimes the pannonians of hungarian soil are know as Illyrians. written History states they invaded the balkans from the north and slowly took land to finally be stopped by the macedonians of Alexander the great times. They did not participate in alexanders Persian wars because they where not "greek" . The epirotes of northern greece and albania went to fight the Persians with Alexander. The illyrians where absorbed by celtic migrations from the alps. the celts got as far as greece. Basically by the time the Romans arrived and Queen teuta fought them, the illyrians where a minor nuisance to the Romans, it was only their piracy thats was an issue. They where R1b in majority with some G.

- The thracians if we include the Dacians, Getae and their relatives the cimmerians where the most populous, I believe they brought I2a2 into the balkans after the scythians arrived on the northern parts of the black sea. The thracians would have also had the E and J markers. ( i am usure on any R but maybe as per mr. hammer it would be L11 from modern Bulgaria) The cimmerians fled to the plains of hungaria and serbia in 700BC ( not earlier)

Of course. Because Illyria and Illyricum were only geographic terms from Greeks and Romans. In these coordinates lived many tribes, with different haplogroups. In the middle Illyria probably dominant were I2a + R1a carriers.

Thracians could have R1a, I2a, E-V13 and J markers.

adamo
18-12-13, 20:08
Doesn't matter; the I2a men didn't need to recolonize via Ukraine; they waited out the LGM in the Bosnian refuge; and I would like to see sources indicating heavy R1a movement into Europe back/before/during the R1b/ I days of moving into Europe. (I men arrived earliest).

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 20:10
Pannonians where simply celticized Illyrians, the Illyrians were I2a2 and the Dacians and thracians derived from them; the original and still today inhabitants of the Dalmatian coast before the arrival of Slavs and then to a lesser degree celts.
why do you ignore the fact which is CLEARLY written, it doesnt hurt you to accept what is written, i2a is also derived from slavic invasion, (source eupedia I2 haplogroup) read and your eyes will get open, i dont get it why you are not reading it....just read the article thats all, read. ALL SLAVIC COUNTRIES OF TODAY carry i2a with them all without any exception. and all with over 5% and a lot more.

adamo
18-12-13, 20:11
Yes, thracians may have been a mix....(still think they were I2a lol) but the Illyrians proper were certainly I2a2 people, very predominantly.

adamo
18-12-13, 20:12
Yeah well, all Eastern Europe carries small levels of I2a2 without exception pretty much. "this phenomenon is explained by "contribution to the Y chromosomes of peoples who settled in the Balkan region before the Slavic expansion to the genetic heritage of Southern Slavs.." And "several groups have determined the common occurrence of this subclade in the South Slavic-speaking populations to be the result of "pre-Slavic" paleolithic settlement in the region"

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 20:21
Yeah well, all Eastern Europe carries small levels of I2a2 without exception pretty much.

are you from croatia or bosnia working in italy, that would explain why you are not reading i2 haplogroup properly on eupedia....

adamo
18-12-13, 20:28
No loll, modern distribution is not indicative of place of origin and besides; if R1a HAD in fact spread via the Ukrainian refuge/ Russian plains, wouldn't it be more frequent in Slovakia,Czech republic, Belarus (like 40-50% like R1a?) instead we see a frequency decline in general as we move slowly from Bosnia (50%) Croatia (40%) Slovenia (40%) Albania (20%) Hungary (20%) Romania (20%) etc. they way it's spread with a big blob near the Adriatic coast makes no sense if it came from Ukraine with R1a. It is indigenous to Bosnian refuge and subsequently spread at lower % from there.

Sile
18-12-13, 20:30
are you from croatia or bosnia working in italy, that would explain why you are not reading i2 haplogroup properly on eupedia....

I don't think he is, more likely his T marker is from central Italy coming from crete or chios, previously cyprus and the levant.

I2a arriving from the slavs of ukraine in the darkages is a different line which was in the balkans from thracian/cimmerian line...........check KN

adamo
18-12-13, 20:34
Which part of the levant in your opinion Sile? I am y-DNA T-L299 paternal, I2a maternal father and two mtdna H's all from Italy....only a small fraction of my genome but anyways....would you believe if I said I think the Phoenicians spread T? Peaks in Cadiz on Iberia , Ibiza islans, western Sicily, northern Corsica; all Phoenician colonies.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 20:34
No loll, modern distribution is not indicative of place of origin and besides; if R1a HAD in fact spread via the Ukrainian refuge/ Russian plains, wouldn't it be more frequent in Slovakia,Czech republic, Belarus (like 40-50% like R1a?) instead we see a frequency decline in general as we move slowly from Bosnia (50%) Croatia (40%) Slovenia (40%) Albania (20%) Hungary (20%) Romania (20%) etc. they way it's spread with a big blob near the Adriatic coast makes no sense if it came from Ukraine with R1a. It is indigenous to Bosnian refuge and subsequently spread at lower % from there.

but it is a fact that south slavs carry more i2a and north slavs r1a, and both slavs carry of the respective other one with a smaller percentage, i am not inventing anything, it all says on eupedia i2 haplogroup, which says that the last i2a-din came also with the south slavs. but i dont get the feeling away that you are from dalmatia working in italy. it wouldnt be a shame to you.

just read i2 haplogroup it is written very clearly. dont deny it.

adamo
18-12-13, 20:35
Moms dad is y-DNA I2a from Tuscany believe it or not; Pisa region.

Garrick
18-12-13, 20:36
Doesn't matter; the I2a men didn't need to recolonize via Ukraine; they waited out the LGM in the Bosnian refuge; and I would like to see sources indicating heavy R1a movement into Europe back/before/during the R1b/ I days of moving into Europe. (I men arrived earliest).

I can agree with you that probably I carriers were first in the Balkans, maybe 25,000 years ago, maybe earlier. But they moved.

R1a carriers came to the Balkans about 10,000 ago or more? (scientists are dealing with large differences dating back Balkanic R1a in Paleolitic or early Halocene). It is mistake that for these first Balkans R1a carriers some members of forums think that they are Slavs.

R1a carriers massively came to the Balkans about 3000 years BC and after. And it is for debate whether they are Slavs. These R1a carriers are associated with Indo European Kurgan culture.

Naive observers think R1a=Slavs and R1a came to the Balkans only in seventh century. No. In the world there are a lot of R1a carriers who are not Slavs. And today's Slavic people are mixed R1a/I2a but and another haplogroups.

R1a is very old in the Balkans and scientists proved this. But some observer can notice that R1a is quitle evenly distributed among today's Balkan's people: Serbs, Greeks, Bulgarians, Albanians, Bosniacs, Romanians, etc. Somewhat higher in Croats and even greater in Slovenes (but Slovenes are not in the Balkans).

For example difference between Serbs/Bosniacs/Croats and Albanians is not so R1a. All people have R1a in some significant percent, including Albanians.

Main difference is I2a, because (Geg) Albanians have small percent I2a. Tosk Albanians have much more than Geges. Eupedia don't give right picture (you can see Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia) because in Albania there are no division Geges, Tosks, and in Macedonia there are no division Albanians, Macedonians. Kosovo is more realistic because Kosovo Albanians are Geges (there are no significant numbers of Tosks in Kosovo).

adamo
18-12-13, 20:41
So why are all these Slavic languages like Slovene or Serbian distantly related to say, polish for example, if they don't all have that same R1a source? How could a mix of I2a and R1a people in the Balkans have developed a Slavic language/identity if it wasn't for Slavic R1a presence? Anyways, it sure wasn't those pre-indo-European I2a2 men. Their pre-indo-European language was replaced.

Sile
18-12-13, 20:42
Which part of the levant in your opinion Sile? I am y-DNA T-L299 paternal, I2a maternal father and two mtdna H's all from Italy....only a small fraction of my genome but anyways....would you believe if I said I think the Phoenicians spread T? Peaks in Cadiz on Iberia , Ibiza islans, western Sicily, northern Corsica; all Phoenician colonies.

Talk about this in T thread, but phoenicians is plausible, remember that T in Persia was known as the "phoenicians" of the indian ocean, migrating to arabia and east africa via sea. so they where mariners as well

adamo
18-12-13, 20:45
Correct, it is also present in multiple individuals I know from Saudi Arabia.

Garrick
18-12-13, 21:05
So why are all these Slavic languages like Slovene or Serbian distantly related to say, polish for example, if they don't all have that same R1a source? How could a mix of I2a and R1a people in the Balkans have developed a Slavic language/identity if it wasn't for Slavic R1a presence? Anyways, it sure wasn't those pre-indo-European I2a2 men. Their pre-indo-European language was replaced.

Yes, it is good question. I told you, things are not so simple. Some I2a Serbs tried to find "lost" I2a language. I doubt they are on the right track.

Generally I population once were much numerous in Europe. But I carriers have experienced decline. Someone can see I1 and I2 haplogroup in European countries, especially in Scandinavia and Balkans, but numbers of R1b and R1a carriers much higher.

It is possible that today's I2a-Din people never had hypotetical "lost" language. In other words, maybe they spoke same language as R1a.

Of course, answers are not easy. For me is very interesting what language had first R1a carriers in the Balkans (20-12 KYA). What language spoke R1a carriers in Balkans who came about 3KYA BC (Kurgan culture). Nobody gave satisfactory answers to these questions, only hypothesis.

Zemra
18-12-13, 23:12
Main difference is I2a, because (Geg) Albanians have small percent I2a. Tosk Albanians have much more than Geges. Eupedia don't give right picture (you can see Albania, Kosovo, Macedonia) because in Albania there are no division Geges, Tosks, and in Macedonia there are no division Albanians, Macedonians. Kosovo is more realistic because Kosovo Albanians are Geges (there are no significant numbers of Tosks in Kosovo).
I feel the need to explain the distinction, because everyone talks about Tosks and Ghegs like it knows everything

Ok, let me make it clear. Gheg and Tosk a dialect split, not tribes. Moving further, Tosk are split in (N to S) Northern Tosk, Lab, Cham, Arbëresh and Arvanitika. Gheg are split in (S to N) Southern Gheg, Central Albanians, Malësor, Dukagjin (or Kosovo since it's more numerous, but includes NE Albania too, so I'm using this name) and Albanci. There's also a transitional dialect between. Rivers are generally used to mark the (approximate) borders, but other factors too are considered (like being in Greece, Italy, Croatia or a high isolated terrain).

The main difference is the Tosk rhotacim, basically n>r eg wine Gheg venë > Tosk verë and this is what give the people its name. There are other differences like:
Gheg has 17 vowels > Tosk has 7 vowels, substitites all Gheg long and nasal vowels with ë
or
Treatment of consonants and vowels, Gheg tends to assimilate, Tosk tends to add.
etc.
but the first is the most important as it's a feature in what makes Ghegs Gheg and Tosks Tosk. The secondary differences are used to make the distinction of minor dialects between each other.

So all Kosovo Albanians are Gheg. So are Central Albanans, despite Ghegs are generally considered to be Northern Albanians. North Albania is defined as North the Shkumbin river. However there's an exception in Albanians of Ukraine, they're Tosks not Gheg, despite Ukraine being much much more in N than Albanci of Croatia.

I listed all the names needed to know (repeat: Albanci, Dukagjinas/Kosovar, Malësor/Malsor/Malcor, Central Albanians, Southern Gheg, Transitional, Northern Tosk, Lab, Cham, Arbëresh, Arvanitika).


IMO

- Illyrians tribes are all different to each other and had no language similarities, the illyrians where created between Eastern austria and hungaria, sometimes the pannonians of hungarian soil are know as Illyrians. written History states they invaded the balkans from the north and slowly took land to finally be stopped by the macedonians of Alexander the great times. They did not participate in alexanders Persian wars because they where not "greek" . The epirotes of northern greece and albania went to fight the Persians with Alexander. The illyrians where absorbed by celtic migrations from the alps. the celts got as far as greece. Basically by the time the Romans arrived and Queen teuta fought them, the illyrians where a minor nuisance to the Romans, it was only their piracy thats was an issue. They where R1b in majority with some G.

- The thracians if we include the Dacians, Getae and their relatives the cimmerians where the most populous, I believe they brought I2a2 into the balkans after the scythians arrived on the northern parts of the black sea. The thracians would have also had the E and J markers. ( i am usure on any R but maybe as per mr. hammer it would be L11 from modern Bulgaria) The cimmerians fled to the plains of hungaria and serbia in 700BC ( not earlier)

That shouldn't be an opinion, that's a fact, it has been for a couple of decades now. They were different from each other. Dalmatians covered the narrow coastal strip of the Adriatic. This one https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Romanian_origins_map.PNG Other regions seem to be independent of it, and have developed independently from it, despite all being included in the so called Roman Illyricum. Dardanians seemed to have been a distinct group of people, but they didn't have Tharcian toponyms to be considered Thracian so they were made Illyrians by default, which is illogical to me. So were Panonians (likely Celtic IMO) and all the others I've left without mentioning.


Whenever Illyria or Illyrians start as topics, the Albanian connection will start as well.
As for Albanian origins, what's sure is that it was created somewhere between Germanic, Baltic, Scythian, Greek, Celtic, just to map it, not coastal, neither Adriatic nor Black sea. That basically means the non-Greek, non-coastal part of the Balkans which it's a pretty big place. Judging by the Latin traces in the language, Albanians were included pretty early in the Roman Empire (BC times). Proto-Albanian (pre Roman influence Albanian) shows two distinct times, Early PA, spoken much more closely to Baltic (not Slavic though, which makes me wonder where were thy located at this time), Late PA spoken much more closely to Greek (nowhere close to Armenian though). Majority were cattle-breeders, and in the waters around whirpools were common. Also, had a solar cult, more specifically a sunset divinity was the central god. That's what you get only from lingustic testimony. That's what all the theories on the origin of Albanians agree on, it doesn't mention anyone in particular. That's what's expected to be expanded.

Garrick
18-12-13, 23:44
Ok, let me make it clear. Gheg and Tosk a dialect split, not tribes. Moving further, Tosk are split in (N to S) Northern Tosk, Lab, So all Kosovo Albanians are Gheg.

Yes, of course, Kosovo Albanians are Geg (Gheg) Albanians. There are some Tosks who came from Albania, but there are no "Tosk community".

Researchers found a pretty big difference between Geg and Tosk haplogroups, and the most difference is in I2a, Tosk Albanians have significant I2a but Geg Albanians have by far the least I2a among the nations in the Balkans.

It would be good to conduct more researches.

MOESAN
19-12-13, 00:39
Oups! what a warm discussion (hot maybe?) - thanks to Zemra for some precious details about albanian languages and regions -
just my point here, to make, perhaps, the discussion clearer:
old opinions about Ilyyrians are out of date, really - Illyrians were not that ocean of people our old scholars believed and who colonized (supposedly) entire central Europe: it seems that very often Veneti and akin people were confused with true Illyrians - Veneti were closer to Italics, genuine Illyrians closer to Thracians and Getae/Dacians and some other intermediary people, maybe among them ancestors of Albanians- the Lusacian placenames or rivers had their "cousins" in places of the Illyricum coasts so ancient scholars took that as a proof of a link between Illyrians and first bearers of the Urnfields of Lusace, come from Hungary or N Croatia - Hallstatt birth was considered as the result of contacts between eastern alpine Celts and Illyrian - it seems to me with our today "knowledge" (separation of the roman Illyricum in two parts: N: Veneti or family, S: true Illyrians) that it is more evident (linguistically too) to consider Hallstatt as a Veneti or proto-Veneti impulse among Celtic tribes - -history of latine and osco-umbrian people is linked for a long time to N-Croatia Hungary at a first stage-
concerning Y- HGs , a) we have no very ancient settlements in Dalmatia-Dinaric Alpes - b) Y-I2a1b seems ancient enough in central Europe and could have got down to Yugoslavia more recently that believed- c) Slavs (a bet) are for me proto-Balts modified by contacts with more southern people, I-E or not and it seems to me that, aside the 'mediterranean' neolithical heritage (before and during metals, because the first metallurgists were the first peasants or breeders: Starcevo,then Cucuteni-Tr.) they mixed a lot with previous Carpathians populations where I think Y-I2a2 was predominant (I think that at the "apotheose" of Cucuteni-Tripolje culture, these southern and carpathian elements were present far North until Bela-Russia : look at autosomals maps)- so Slavs of South could very well have send samples of this HG with them to Yugoslavia and to other places, reinforcing the first Y-I2a1b; only a peer study of downstream I2a SNPs in Yugolsavia and Balkans could give us a good picture -
but I'm not so smart as someones to predict exactly which tribe or people was pure I2a1b or pure R1a because at first sight, there were always some slight or heavy crossings in these populations -

Bardhyl
19-12-13, 00:50
Oups! what a warm discussion (hot maybe?) - thanks to Zemra for some precious details about albanian languages and regions -
just my point here, to make, perhaps, the discussion clearer:
old opinions about Ilyyrians are out of date, really - Illyrians were not that ocean of people our old scholars believed and who colonized (supposedly) entire central Europe: it seems that very often Veneti and akin people were confused with true Illyrians - Veneti were closer to Italics, genuine Illyrians closer to Thracians and Getae/Dacians and some other intermediary people, maybe among them ancestors of Albanians- the Lusacian placenames or rivers had their "cousins" in places of the Illyricum coasts so ancient scholars took that as a proof of a link between Illyrians and first bearers of the Urnfields of Lusace, come from Hungary or N Croatia - Hallstatt birth was considered as the result of contacts between eastern alpine Celts and Illyrian - it seems to me with our today "knowledge" (separation of the roman Illyricum in two parts: N: Veneti or family, S: true Illyrians) that it is more evident (linguistically too) to consider Hallstatt as a Veneti or proto-Veneti impulse among Celtic tribes - -history of latine and osco-umbrian people is linked for a long time to N-Croatia Hungary at a first stage-
concerning Y- HGs , a) we have no very ancient settlements in Dalmatia-Dinaric Alpes - b) Y-I2a1b seems ancient enough in central Europe and could have got down to Yugoslavia more recently that believed- c) Slavs (a bet) are for me proto-Balts modified by contacts with more southern people, I-E or not and it seems to me that, aside the 'mediterranean' neolithical heritage (before and during metals, because the first metallurgists were the first peasants or breeders: Starcevo,then Cucuteni-Tr.) they mixed a lot with previous Carpathians populations where I think Y-I2a2 was predominant (I think that at the "apotheose" of Cucuteni-Tripolje culture, these southern and carpathian elements were present far North until Bela-Russia : look at autosomals maps)- so Slavs of South could very well have send samples of this HG with them to Yugoslavia and to other places, reinforcing the first Y-I2a1b; only a peer study of downstream I2a SNPs in Yugolsavia and Balkans could give us a good picture -
but I'm not so smart as someones to predict exactly which tribe or people was pure I2a1b or pure R1a because at first sight, there were always some slight or heavy crossings in these populations -

Thanks, finally someone who understands.
i2a came with south slavs also.

Quote i2 haplogroup eupedia:
This branch is found overwhelmingly in Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed among the Dinaric Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians) as well as in Bulgaria, Romania, Moldavia, western Ukraine and Belarus. It is also common to a lower extent in Albania, Greece, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, and south-western Russia. I2-L621 (L147.2+) is also known as as I2a-Din (for Dinaric). (Eupedia.com i2 haplogroup)

The second great expansion of I2a-Din took place with the Slavic migration in the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages. I2a-Din had started to mix with Proto-Indo-Euroepan.(Eupedia.com i2 haplogroup)

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age (Eupedia.com i2 haplogroup)

Eldritch
19-12-13, 01:26
Oups! what a warm discussion (hot maybe?) - thanks to Zemra for some precious details about albanian languages and regions -
just my point here, to make, perhaps, the discussion clearer:
old opinions about Ilyyrians are out of date, really - Illyrians were not that ocean of people our old scholars believed and who colonized (supposedly) entire central Europe: it seems that very often Veneti and akin people were confused with true Illyrians - Veneti were closer to Italics, genuine Illyrians closer to Thracians and Getae/Dacians and some other intermediary people, maybe among them ancestors of Albanians- the Lusacian placenames or rivers had their "cousins" in places of the Illyricum coasts so ancient scholars took that as a proof of a link between Illyrians and first bearers of the Urnfields of Lusace, come from Hungary or N Croatia - Hallstatt birth was considered as the result of contacts between eastern alpine Celts and Illyrian - it seems to me with our today "knowledge" (separation of the roman Illyricum in two parts: N: Veneti or family, S: true Illyrians) that it is more evident (linguistically too) to consider Hallstatt as a Veneti or proto-Veneti impulse among Celtic tribes - -history of latine and osco-umbrian people is linked for a long time to N-Croatia Hungary at a first stage-
concerning Y- HGs , a) we have no very ancient settlements in Dalmatia-Dinaric Alpes - b) Y-I2a1b seems ancient enough in central Europe and could have got down to Yugoslavia more recently that believed- c) Slavs (a bet) are for me proto-Balts modified by contacts with more southern people, I-E or not and it seems to me that, aside the 'mediterranean' neolithical heritage (before and during metals, because the first metallurgists were the first peasants or breeders: Starcevo,then Cucuteni-Tr.) they mixed a lot with previous Carpathians populations where I think Y-I2a2 was predominant (I think that at the "apotheose" of Cucuteni-Tripolje culture, these southern and carpathian elements were present far North until Bela-Russia : look at autosomals maps)- so Slavs of South could very well have send samples of this HG with them to Yugoslavia and to other places, reinforcing the first Y-I2a1b; only a peer study of downstream I2a SNPs in Yugolsavia and Balkans could give us a good picture -
but I'm not so smart as someones to predict exactly which tribe or people was pure I2a1b or pure R1a because at first sight, there were always some slight or heavy crossings in these populations -
First good post after a sea of madness.

Sile
19-12-13, 01:32
That shouldn't be an opinion, that's a fact, it has been for a couple of decades now. They were different from each other. Dalmatians covered the narrow coastal strip of the Adriatic. This one https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a7/Romanian_origins_map.PNG Other regions seem to be independent of it, and have developed independently from it, despite all being included in the so called Roman Illyricum. Dardanians seemed to have been a distinct group of people, but they didn't have Tharcian toponyms to be considered Thracian so they were made Illyrians by default, which is illogical to me. So were Panonians (likely Celtic IMO) and all the others I've left without mentioning.




dardanians are grouped with macedonians and Paeonians ( not pannonians) , they where taken to fight for Alexander in the Persian wars. No illyrians where taken as they where noted as barbarians and also Macedonai and an illyrian tribe had a truce after many years of war.

this book is a good account of the areas in question .....main wars between macedonians and 2 illyrian tribes was around 350BC
A Companion to Ancient Macedonia edited by Joseph Roisman, Ian Worthington

adamo
19-12-13, 03:35
None of that was madness, you guys just don't know better yet. The Illyrians were a homogenous group inhabiting the Bosnia region on the Adriatic coast; you will see I was right one day. Later on, celts and Slavs would assimilate with them as well (Slavs in particular) leading many to believe they were a "package" that came as one, which is false until more recent times.

adamo
19-12-13, 03:47
The original Illyrians have nothing to do with the later ones in several locales that were celticized or slavicized by far more recent invaders to the region.

adamo
19-12-13, 06:06
Secondly, both E-V13 and J2b have a very southern Balkanic distribution, never affecting the genetic hegemony of the Dalmatian alps region. Third, both R1b from the west and R1a from the east where much LATER arrivals that assimilated to a certain degree with the original Illyrians. In fact, most of their migrations into Illyrian territory can still be historically recounted; that's how recent. The men of I2a2 where lost into prehistory from the Bosnian/Croatian region. Also, derivatives of the Illyrians (thracians,Dacians) were known as having reddish hair and blue eyes; many had very European features, not that that last argument counts for anything lol but anyways.

kamani
19-12-13, 09:16
@adamo, don't be fooled by the high concentration of I2a-din in Bosnia because Bosnia is only 3.7 million people. The Balkans were never able to hold too many people because there is a lot of mountains and the land is infertile. That's why the great Macedonians lost to the Romans, they had no more soldiers and resources as opposed to Rome that could always throw more soldiers in a fight. The Illyrians were very few compared to the Romans or the Slavs. The Byzantines did not know what to do at the time, because the Slavs were coming in large waves as economic immigrants.

adamo
19-12-13, 09:27
Ok lol, doesn't change my argument, start reading from much earlier.

Garrick
19-12-13, 13:25
The original Illyrians have nothing to do with the later ones in several locales that were celticized or slavicized by far more recent invaders to the region.

A lot of Serbs has your opinion.

In the Balkans most numerous I2a carriers are Serbian men, about 1.300.000, (Croatian men about 850.000 and Bosniacs men about 500.000).

These Serbs say that I haplogroup is the oldest haplogroup in the Balkans, about 25.000 years ago, and Serbs are the the oldest people.

But it is not quite correct.

Because, I told you, once I haplogroup was most numerous in Europe, but I carriers had large decline.

That space filled carriers of other haplogroup.

We can debate when first R1a carriers came in the Balkans, in the late Paleolithic or early Holocene but, they came very early, at least 9.000 years ago.

Also, another carriers came to the Balkans, probably G carriers.

We can debate when E and J carriers came to the Balkans, 4.000 or earlier?, 3.000?, 2000? years BC or in historic times.

And R1b and new wave of R1a carriers etc.

But the fact is that I2a Dinaric is not so old as his older I ancestors. You and Serbs who have same theory as you have no answer.

As Serbs who search "lost I2a language". Are you and they sure that such language existed.

And another thing, Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats have same haplogroups and speak same language. Difference between them is not origin or language. Difference is religion.

Serbian researchers can search "lost I2a language" but I afraid that it is a waste of time and resources.

adamo
19-12-13, 14:28
Yeah G passed by south-central Greece to arrive in southern Italy and then end up on Sardinia but G presence across Balkans? Extremely low frequency. E3b and J2 both arrived during the Neolithic period, same for G (5,000-10,000 years ago.) Again, I repeat, the men of I2a were the first to arrive in the Balkans; the indo-Europeans arrived much later, possibly even AFTER the Neolithic haplogroups (notably E-V13 and J2b) had arrived in certain parts of the southern Balkans.

Zemra
19-12-13, 17:59
dardanians are grouped with macedonians and Paeonians ( not pannonians) , they where taken to fight for Alexander in the Persian wars. No illyrians where taken as they where noted as barbarians and also Macedonai and an illyrian tribe had a truce after many years of war.

this book is a good account of the areas in question .....main wars between macedonians and 2 illyrian tribes was around 350BC
A Companion to Ancient Macedonia

edited by Joseph Roisman, Ian Worthington

Dardanians in Balkans are mostly outside the Greek sphere of influence. Remind me, Philip II, Alexander's father married a Dardanian princess/queen/leader (or whatever she was called) so that's what got him the support. Paeonians are another distinct group, also not Greek, but inside the Greek sphere of influence, as they seemed to have lots of Greek loans. Thraco-Illyrian is used to describe both, although Paleo-Balkanic it's a more proper term to describe all. I'm still pretty sure Pannonians were Celtic.


Secondly, both E-V13 and J2b have a very southern Balkanic distribution, never affecting the genetic hegemony of the Dalmatian alps region. Third, both R1b from the west and R1a from the east where much LATER arrivals that assimilated to a certain degree with the original Illyrians. In fact, most of their migrations into Illyrian territory can still be historically recounted; that's how recent. The men of I2a2 where lost into prehistory from the Bosnian/Croatian region. Also, derivatives of the Illyrians (thracians,Dacians) were known as having reddish hair and blue eyes; many had very European features, not that that last argument counts for anything lol but anyways.

As for the appearance, they were described as redhaired by people born in modern day Greece and Turkey (like Στράβων ). Colors are relative. What's called honey blonde (google it), it's not blonde for quite a few people, but brown. Red hair is widespread in Scotland. There's also the Udmurt people beyond the Ural mountains, but you said European looking so they're out. I'm pretty sure this was not the red hair they were describing, auburn would be a modern day definition. Or just brown. Or lighter than black. Not black.

In 1848 James Henry Skeene described Albanians as "...preserving a marked distinction from the Greeks, in form and physiognomy, having light eyes and high cheek-bones..." when compared to Greeks and Turks. Paraphrasing: All three Greeks, Albanians, and Turks look different from each other: Albanians are the light featured ones, Turks are the asiatic looking ones, Greeks are Mediterranean looking. When compared to each other...It's all relative. Thracians were described as red haired and blue eyed compared to Ancient Greeks. Which makes sense for the region. Genes do not dissapear, example these are Tocharian genes in China: http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z292/dinnerinabottle/blonde2.jpg


Yes, of course, Kosovo Albanians are Geg (Gheg) Albanians. There are some Tosks who came from Albania, but there are no "Tosk community".

Researchers found a pretty big difference between Geg and Tosk haplogroups, and the most difference is in I2a, Tosk Albanians have significant I2a but Geg Albanians have by far the least I2a among the nations in the Balkans.

It would be good to conduct more researches.
I2a reaches its peak in South East Albania, where there was once a significant Vlach community. However, J2b peaks in South West Albania were there was and is a significant Vlach community. There was a test done of Vlach people and they differed wildly depending where they were. There was no haplogroup connected specifically with Vlach people, so they might have had numerous founder effects to explain these differences. Here's a map http://www.farsarotul.org/images/NL26_1F.jpg Where it says Lunca to Moscopie is where I2a in Albania peaks http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif (http://nonpundit.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/haplogroup_i-borders.gif) . Is that a good start?

adamo
19-12-13, 18:59
Whoever dislike my comment explain why. The highest G frequencies in Greece by far are on the Thessaloniki region (12%) which was the way these men followed (G-P15+) from turkey into southeastern Europe then southern italy and northern Sardinia.

Sile
19-12-13, 19:17
A lot of Serbs has your opinion.

In the Balkans most numerous I2a carriers are Serbian men, about 1.300.000, (Croatian men about 850.000 and Bosniacs men about 500.000).

These Serbs say that I haplogroup is the oldest haplogroup in the Balkans, about 25.000 years ago, and Serbs are the the oldest people.

But it is not quite correct.

Because, I told you, once I haplogroup was most numerous in Europe, but I carriers had large decline.

That space filled carriers of other haplogroup.

We can debate when first R1a carriers came in the Balkans, in the late Paleolithic or early Holocene but, they came very early, at least 9.000 years ago.

Also, another carriers came to the Balkans, probably G carriers.

We can debate when E and J carriers came to the Balkans, 4.000 or earlier?, 3.000?, 2000? years BC or in historic times.

And R1b and new wave of R1a carriers etc.

But the fact is that I2a Dinaric is not so old as his older I ancestors. You and Serbs who have same theory as you have no answer.

As Serbs who search "lost I2a language". Are you and they sure that such language existed.

And another thing, Serbs, Bosniacs and Croats have same haplogroups and speak same language. Difference between them is not origin or language. Difference is religion.

Serbian researchers can search "lost I2a language" but I afraid that it is a waste of time and resources.

Serbs claim I marker is older because they originate from the Thracian Triballi tribe, the serb nobility and government use the triballi Boar icon in their letters and documents.

They ( serbs) want to say the slavs have always been in the balkans

Sile
19-12-13, 19:21
Dardanians in Balkans are mostly outside the Greek sphere of influence. Remind me, Philip II, Alexander's father married a Dardanian princess/queen/leader (or whatever she was called) so that's what got him the support. Paeonians are another distinct group, also not Greek, but inside the Greek sphere of influence, as they seemed to have lots of Greek loans. Thraco-Illyrian is used to describe both, although Paleo-Balkanic it's a more proper term to describe all. I'm still pretty sure Pannonians were Celtic.





I have never said and will never say that the ancient Macedonians are greek.

Macedonians, dardanians and paeonians are all another seperate branch, not greek, not thracian and definitely not illyrian because Illyrians where the last to arrive in the area in question of these peoples.

Sile
19-12-13, 19:28
As for the appearance, they were described as redhaired by people born in modern day Greece and Turkey (like Στράβων ). Colors are relative. What's called honey blonde (google it), it's not blonde for quite a few people, but brown. Red hair is widespread in Scotland. There's also the Udmurt people beyond the Ural mountains, but you said European looking so they're out. I'm pretty sure this was not the red hair they were describing, auburn would be a modern day definition. Or just brown. Or lighter than black. Not black.



Venetian blond[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#cite_note-19) or honey blond: reddish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair) blond.

Honey blond originally called venetian blond , name change by Americans. The blond has red in it and its noted that 60% of Veneti females originally had it during the times Venice was a separate nation. Apparently men do not get this type of colour.........I never checked why

Garrick
19-12-13, 21:42
Serbs claim I marker is older because they originate from the Thracian Triballi tribe, the serb nobility and government use the triballi Boar icon in their letters and documents.

They ( serbs) want to say the slavs have always been in the balkans

Yes, I know that Serbs have roots in some Thracian and Illyrian tribes.

There is problem time of the I2a in the Balkans, but it is less problem.

Because accuracy is not easy to determine and can vary over a wide range, also I2a derived from older I ancestors, and there are no dispute that haplogoup I generally is the oldest in the Balkans.

For researchers the biggest problem is language, and member of forum Adamo very well observed it.

Key problem is language of I2a carriers, whether someone should search "lost I2a language" or no, I think it is waste of time and resources because language of I2a and R1a carriers in the Balkans is same language.

Bardhyl
19-12-13, 23:14
Serbs claim I marker is older because they originate from the Thracian Triballi tribe, the serb nobility and government use the triballi Boar icon in their letters and documents.

They ( serbs) want to say the slavs have always been in the balkans

yes they (slavs) always will claim that they were first in balkan, older than ancient greek there, they are probably older than homosapiens too, in switzerland we call this Wunschdenken (wishthinking), believing things which they want to believe is true, this thinking no prove can change.
And they dont mention even once that i2a also came with slavs too, which you can see on the link below. And slavs r1a is not the one who came with slavs but the old one (wunschdenken), and their i2a is not the one which also came with slavs, but the old thraco-illyro-dacian one (wunschdenken), they always were there, they once were fighting with dinosaurs in the balkans, and thAts why you cant find dinosaurs bones in that region, because dinosaurs flee away.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

Ike
20-12-13, 00:42
That's pure disinformation! Nowhere in any school book written in Croatian, Serbian, Bosnian or Bulgarian can you find such claims. They all agree about Slav migration to Balkans in 6th century, and not knowing the origin of original inhabitants. There are multiple theories about Thracian, Dacian, Celtic, Pelasgian or llyrian origin and some of them have Africans, Amazons, Atlants, Aryans, Slavs, Semits and other participants, but those theories are reserved for internet forums and alternative content TV shows.

Zemra
20-12-13, 01:39
Venetian blond[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blond#cite_note-19) or honey blond: reddish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_hair) blond.

Honey blond originally called venetian blond , name change by Americans. The blond has red in it and its noted that 60% of Veneti females originally had it during the times Venice was a separate nation. Apparently men do not get this type of colour.........I never checked why

I'm saying hair color is relative. I don't think it's blond but light brown, but it's in the name. You can disagree if you want, it's fine, you're just proving what I said, that is relative. Just like people disagree on what's beautiful. Or the temperature, some say 20 degrees it's cold other say it's hot. People tend to agree on extremes though. Here's the hair color in question:
http://www.vivasanusa.com/cart/images/P/C_185sample.jpg


I have never said and will never say that the ancient Macedonians are greek.

Macedonians, dardanians and paeonians are all another seperate branch, not greek, not thracian and definitely not illyrian because Illyrians where the last to arrive in the area in question of these peoples.
Not even Illyrians were all Illyrians, they were included in a territory called Illyria. They didn't even call themselves Illyrian. It's like nationality vs ethnicity today. If you read about their clothing, hairstyles, pottery etc. they were vastly different so they couldn't have been homogenous. But I do think they sounded alike to foreigners (Greeks, Romans etc.), thus being grouped together. The Balkan sprachbund is likely the reason why. Or a modern day example, people can recognize an accent as Eastern European, but they can't really pinpoint which country. Makes sense because they don't have the same exposure. Maybe that was a bad example because most EE are Slavic, but I think you understand my point.

If you can see, I'm more interested on the linguistic side.

adamo
20-12-13, 10:24
On what grounds do they claim that the Illyrians where indo-Europeans? They have a few words here and there that they fail to classify (barely anything is known on Illyrian tongue) and make unsubstantiated claims that the Illyrians came out of PIE homeland as well; I'll never believe it.

Garrick
20-12-13, 12:25
yes they (slavs) always will claim that they were first in balkan, older than ancient greek there, they are probably older than homosapiens too, in switzerland we call this Wunschdenken (wishthinking), believing things which they want to believe is true, this thinking no prove can change.
And they dont mention even once that i2a also came with slavs too, which you can see on the link below. And slavs r1a is not the one who came with slavs but the old one (wunschdenken), and their i2a is not the one which also came with slavs, but the old thraco-illyro-dacian one (wunschdenken), they always were there, they once were fighting with dinosaurs in the balkans, and thAts why you cant find dinosaurs bones in that region, because dinosaurs flee away.


http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_I2_Y-DNA.shtml

Yes. Slavs lived before dinosaurs. And when dinosaurs emerged Slavs used dinosaurs as domestic animals and for menu. However, when mammals emerged, Slavs changed the menu and dinosaurs were no longer needed.

Science knows at least three waves of comings of R1a carriers to the Balkans in very long periods. I told more time, R1a carriers is not equal Slavs. There are a lot of R1a carriers in the world, and they are not all Slavs.

adamo
20-12-13, 13:21
Well the Slavic incursions proper into Eastern Europe took place like about 1,000 years ago only; R1a may not even have been an element among ancient Greeks; it did not even represent a Greek tribe the way J2, E3b and I2a did. I think the Dorians were that continental invading R1b element that ruined Mycenean Greek culture.

adamo
20-12-13, 13:25
The Minoans of Crete I feel fell prey to natural/environmental conditions such as earthquakes/volcanoes, they would have been J2a. The superseding Mycenaeans of Crete and southern mainland Greece where a mix of J2 ( a and b) plus E3b. There was a tribe as well in all this in north-central Greece representing I2a as well which would eventually even migrate towards the Peloponnese in very small numbers (the haplogroup). The Dorians I believe were that more recent Celtic group that pushed from the north eventually laying waste to the southern Balkans and invading Galatia of turkey.

mihaitzateo
20-12-13, 16:21
Yes. Slavs lived before dinosaurs. And when dinosaurs emerged Slavs used dinosaurs as domestic animals and for menu. However, when mammals emerged, Slavs changed the menu and dinosaurs were no longer needed.

Science knows at least three waves of comings of R1a carriers to the Balkans in very long periods. I told more time, R1a carriers is not equal Slavs. There are a lot of R1a carriers in the world, and they are not all Slavs.


Slavs are a linguistic group,that split from Balto-Slavic.
I do not think Slavic languages are older than 2000 years .
As for Balto-Slavic,no idea how old that language is.
The original land of Slavs is near Baltic Sea,a little lower on the map from where Lithuania,Latvia are now and were Old Prussia was,which were also Balts,lived and near.
Is clear that they moved mostly Eastern,where they mixed with Finnics and Ugrians and in lesser extent with Siberians and gave Russians.
In West,they could not move,since Germanics were there and these were hard to beat.
In North,no way,since Vikings were there and this were also a hard challenge.
Some of the Slavs that moved East,moved South,so they gave Ukraine.Some other Slavs,from Eastern part,allied with some Turkic tribes and moved to Balkans and they gave Bulgarians and some Slavs from Central Europe,that is Czech and Slovak and Poland moved South till Balkans,where they gave Serbians,Montenegrins,Croats,Bosnians and Slovenes.
I know that Slavs and Balts do not want to admit that they are coming from same people and language ,but this is the truth.
You can see clearly after paternal HGs how Slavs spread and with whom they mixed,in their road.
HG R1A1 shows that Slavs spread mostly East and South East,they could not spread in North or West,because the presence of Celto-Germanics there.
As for I2,yes,South Slavs have lots of it,but is not of Slavic origins,is from the people that lived in Europe before IE people came.

Is known there are also branches of R1A1 that are not Slavic,but Norse,but I think those people are coming from Balto-Slavic tribes that joined Germanics and got assimilated by those Germanic tribes.

Garrick
20-12-13, 17:34
Slavs are a linguistic group,that split from Balto-Slavic.
I do not think Slavic languages are older than 2000 years .
As for Balto-Slavic,no idea how old that language is.
The original land of Slavs is near Baltic Sea,a little lower on the map from where Lithuania,Latvia are now and were Old Prussia was,which were also Balts,lived and near.
Is clear that they moved mostly Eastern,where they mixed with Finnics and Ugrians and in lesser extent with Siberians and gave Russians.
In West,they could not move,since Germanics were there and these were hard to beat.
In North,no way,since Vikings were there and this were also a hard challenge.
Some of the Slavs that moved East,moved South,so they gave Ukraine.Some other Slavs,from Eastern part,allied with some Turkic tribes and moved to Balkans and they gave Bulgarians and some Slavs from Central Europe,that is Czech and Slovak and Poland moved South till Balkans,where they gave Serbians,Montenegrins,Croats,Bosnians and Slovenes.
I know that Slavs and Balts do not want to admit that they are coming from same people and language ,but this is the truth.
You can see clearly after paternal HGs how Slavs spread and with whom they mixed,in their road.
HG R1A1 shows that Slavs spread mostly East and South East,they could not spread in North or West,because the presence of Celto-Germanics there.
As for I2,yes,South Slavs have lots of it,but is not of Slavic origins,is from the people that lived in Europe before IE people came.

Is known there are also branches of R1A1 that are not Slavic,but Norse,but I think those people are coming from Balto-Slavic tribes that joined Germanics and got assimilated by those Germanic tribes.

Do you notice contradiction in your write?

You say haplogroup R1a is Slavic (Balto-Slavic).

And Slavic languages are not older than 2000 years.

Do you know when haplogroup R1a appeared?

R1a appeared 20,000-25,000 years ago.

And carriers of R1a didn't speak 18,000-23,000 years and they began to speak 2,000 years ago.

You can read scientific journals that linguists discovered earlier signs of pre-IE language (R1a carriers) in Anatolia 9,600 years ago +- some period.

But R1a is very big haplogroup and it is mistake that someone think it is Slavic haplogroup. Only in Europe R1a have 38 branches.

You can see the picture where R1a distributed. Do you really think that in South, Central and West Asia live Slavs?

http://rafzen.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/indoeurpejczycy.jpg

adamo
20-12-13, 18:05
Garry is correct; all R1a is indo-European from PIE homeland but certainly not all branches are Slavic; he is correct; the Slavic linguistic branch of indo-European sprung up 2000 or so years ago.

mihaitzateo
20-12-13, 18:48
Yes I have said that Slavic languages are not older than 2000 years .
Till than people were speaking Balto-Slavic and around 2000 years ago,or later,Slavic split from Balto-Slavic and later Slavic expansion started,event which triggered the split of Slavic in 3 branches,South Slavic,Western Slavic,Eastern Slavic.
It is clear that the split was not that far away since South Slavic languages are still mutually intelligible.
As for the fact that Bulgarian migrated from today Russia to Balkans,that is shown by the strong mutual intelligibility between Russian and Bulgarian.
How Balto-Slavic speakers got on today land of Poland,Baltic countries,there is another story.
Thing is,Slavs got into Balkans around 1400-1500 years ago,not earlier than that.
The fact that they do not have borrowings from Latin language is showing that they were not in Balkans,in the period Roman Empire was present here.

Garrick
20-12-13, 21:09
Yes I have said that Slavic languages are not older than 2000 years .
Till than people were speaking Balto-Slavic and around 2000 years ago,or later,Slavic split from Balto-Slavic and later Slavic expansion started,event which triggered the split of Slavic in 3 branches,South Slavic,Western Slavic,Eastern Slavic.
It is clear that the split was not that far away since South Slavic languages are still mutually intelligible.
As for the fact that Bulgarian migrated from today Russia to Balkans,that is shown by the strong mutual intelligibility between Russian and Bulgarian.
How Balto-Slavic speakers got on today land of Poland,Baltic countries,there is another story.
Thing is,Slavs got into Balkans around 1400-1500 years ago,not earlier than that.
The fact that they do not have borrowings from Latin language is showing that they were not in Balkans,in the period Roman Empire was present here.

But we here don't speak about 5th - 7th centuries.

We speak about R1a, I2a, E-V13 and another haplogroups whose carriers are comprised Illyrian (and Thracian and another) tribes in the Balkans.

Zemra
20-12-13, 23:07
Yes I have said that Slavic languages are not older than 2000 years .
Till than people were speaking Balto-Slavic and around 2000 years ago,or later,Slavic split from Balto-Slavic and later Slavic expansion started,event which triggered the split of Slavic in 3 branches,South Slavic,Western Slavic,Eastern Slavic.
It is clear that the split was not that far away since South Slavic languages are still mutually intelligible.
As for the fact that Bulgarian migrated from today Russia to Balkans,that is shown by the strong mutual intelligibility between Russian and Bulgarian.
How Balto-Slavic speakers got on today land of Poland,Baltic countries,there is another story.
Thing is,Slavs got into Balkans around 1400-1500 years ago,not earlier than that.
The fact that they do not have borrowings from Latin language is showing that they were not in Balkans,in the period Roman Empire was present here.

Earlier than that. Albanian shows to have been spoken particularly close to Baltic but not Slavic. They were likely spoken separated by Baltic speakers. Keep in mind Baltic was more widspread then. Yet Albanians were included early in the Roman Empire which perhaps makes the similarities not so obvious. This was written in 1993 http://www.lituanus.org/1993_2/93_2_05.htm but it soon became outdated a few years later when Vladimir Orel said the oppostite of what's mentioned there. Specifically, he said what I said in the second sentence. He also put Proto-Albanian homeland somewhere in Central or South-Eastern Europe, which is basically what everyone agreed on already. That said, adding to the observation made in the beginning of the paragraph, where were the Slavic speakers?

Also these theories https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/bd/Balto-Slavic_theories.svg 2 and 3 look quite likely to me, 3 moreso

Garrick
21-12-13, 00:36
Yes I have said that Slavic languages are not older than 2000 years .
Till than people were speaking Balto-Slavic and around 2000 years ago,or later,Slavic split from Balto-Slavic and later Slavic expansion started,event which triggered the split of Slavic in 3 branches,South Slavic,Western Slavic,Eastern Slavic.
It is clear that the split was not that far away since South Slavic languages are still mutually intelligible.
As for the fact that Bulgarian migrated from today Russia to Balkans,that is shown by the strong mutual intelligibility between Russian and Bulgarian.
How Balto-Slavic speakers got on today land of Poland,Baltic countries,there is another story.
Thing is,Slavs got into Balkans around 1400-1500 years ago,not earlier than that.
The fact that they do not have borrowings from Latin language is showing that they were not in Balkans,in the period Roman Empire was present here.

Don't get me wrong but language and origin are two completely different things, and language is not prove of origin.

In the world there are a lot of natives in Asia, Africa, Latin America etc. whose language is English or Spanish but they have nothing with Europe nor with R1b, I1, etc haplogroups in Britain or Spain.

It is very logical, a tribe for thousands of years speaks own language. But in some time this tribe be conquered by invaders. For example and conqueror and tribe are same race.

If conqueror succeeded in imposing language and culture this tribe can change own native language in only two or three generations.

Imagine two or three thousand years passes and nowhere ex language is written.

Descendants can imagine that it is their long-time language and that they have same origin as conquerors.

However their origin can be completely different as evidenced by haplogroups.

I see you are Romanian. Romanians and Serbs speak different languages.

However, if you see Romanian and Serbian haplogroups you can see that Romanians and Serbs are very similar, you can compare percents different haplogroups in Eupedia (Eupedia is the best because Maciamo took data from all relevant studies in scientific Journals).

For example:
I2a
Serbs 33%, Romanians 26%
R1a
Serbs 16%, Romanians 17.5%
E-V13
Serbs 18%, Romanians 15%
I1
Serbs 8.5%, Romanians 4.5%
R1b
Serbs 8%, Romanians 12%

You can see for example Italian haplogroups by regions and see much more differences.

Of course, we can enter in dept and explorer further, but and now we can see similarity Serbs and Romanians.

But it should not surprising because Serbs are descended from Thracians, Illyrians, and even older settlers of the Balkans , etc. and Romanians are descedents from Dacians, Thracians, and even older settlers of the Balkans too.

Dacians were people similar with Thracians.

Yes, Serbs and Romanians have similar origin but Serbs and Romans speak different languages.

But Dacian language is not today's Romanian language, because Romanian language is adopted in process of Romanization during early centuries AD. Dacian language is not alive and there are very little written evidence.

But the origin is written in haplogroups, not in language.

Bardhyl
21-12-13, 07:15
Yes. Slavs lived before dinosaurs. And when dinosaurs emerged Slavs used dinosaurs as domestic animals and for menu. However, when mammals emerged, Slavs changed the menu and dinosaurs were no longer needed.

Science knows at least three waves of comings of R1a carriers to the Balkans in very long periods. I told more time, R1a carriers is not equal Slavs. There are a lot of R1a carriers in the world, and they are not all Slavs.

Yes i agree with you that Y-R1a doesn't necessarily mean Slavic. Neither do other Y-HG necessarily mean a population, neither ancient nor actual.

Pirro
07-09-14, 20:13
Dear Dian,
I have some questions for You,
First, You have written to article before about berbers and albanian about: what similarities have albanian word `ik`english word `quick`, and japanese `ik`. I recommend you to learn more english then word `ik` can be translated in english with go away or exit and not quick! Japanese have not this same significance.
Second , Did You make any haplo group to greek populations and if `yes` are these greek the same with old greeks?
Third You said that as conclusion albanians are from transylvanian. Question is: what kind of albanian group did you have make analysis? (I think is taken to analysis a group from albanian vlahs, and that was the result) or not?
Waitng a honest answer
Pirro Prifti

Pirro
07-09-14, 20:18
Yes i agree with you that Y-R1a doesn't necessarily mean Slavic. Neither do other Y-HG necessarily mean a population, neither ancient nor actual.

I have question for You:
Which Haplo group have significance for ancient population, have significance for actual population, and which other haplo group have not significance for population (except Y-HG)?

Pirro
07-09-14, 20:22
But we here don't speak about 5th - 7th centuries.

We speak about R1a, I2a, E-V13 and another haplogroups whose carriers are comprised Illyrian (and Thracian and another) tribes in the Balkans.

CAN i ASK A QUESTION FOR YOU: What kind of haplo group are characteristic about actual albanians? because haplo groups: Y-R1a and Y-HG can be slavic...

Pirro
11-09-14, 12:57
the map is in correct, because of have no evidence to any `hellenic` tribues. All tribues You emphsed with black are in fact illyrian- pellasgean tribues. That s confirmed by significance of their naems , gods, and places with albanian language.

Pirro
11-09-14, 13:07
Chaonia - s labanian word- KA JON- NGA JONI- PRA NGA DETI jON- ine english language- (tribue) close to Jonian sea.
Mollosy- albanian-Malesi- in english- Montain. How is possible for this two tribues to be `greek`?! when word is albanian?

Ike
11-09-14, 14:52
Chaonia - s labanian word- KA JON- NGA JONI- PRA NGA DETI jON- ine english language- (tribue) close to Jonian sea.
Mollosy- albanian-Malesi- in english- Montain. How is possible for this two tribues to be `greek`?! when word is albanian?

Don't know, ask Kevin Baugh.

"The name Molossia is derived from the Spanish word morro which means "small rocky hill". Baugh has stated that the ancient Greek tribe of Molossians is unrelated."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Molossia#cite_note-mo-4

Eldritch
11-06-15, 11:45
According to the latest study on Eurasian genomes Bronze and Iron Age Montenegrin samples from Velika Gruda (Northern Montenegro not far from Dalmatia in Croatia) are autosomally just slightly east of Tuscans which on modern PCA maps coincides with North Greeks and Albanians. But i dont understand what culture do they belong too exactly, Illyrians were an iron age population right?

http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v522/n7555/images/nature14507-f2.jpg