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Elias2
22-02-11, 17:17
Zajaz the stage is yours.

http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/%7Eklio/maps/rr/colonies.jpghttp://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Illryians-1.jpg

Zajaz
22-02-11, 17:59
Thanks Elias for creating this topic, which I guess has many things to be exposed.

To start off, the maps you brought up have a primary flaw. The southern boundary does not fit at all with the ancient descriptions. Surprisingly it ignore that Epirus had a considerable Illyrian element which is emphasized by every serious historian. The boundaries drew by the designer of map are pretty erroneous since it gives to Hellas a wide territory in the contrary with the historical evidences.


Upper Macedonia (Greek: Ἄνω Μακεδονία, Ánō Makedonía) is a geographical and tribal term to describe the regions that became part of the kingdom of Macedon in the early 4th century BC. From that date, its inhabitants were politically equal to Lower Macedonians. Upper Macedonia was divided in the regions of Elimeia, Eordea, Orestis, Lynkestis, Pelagonia and Deuriopus.
Hecataeus and Strabo identified these mountain Macedonia kingdoms as of Epirote stock. Two of the most important Hellenistic dynasties originated from Upper Macedonia: Lagids from Eordea and Seleucids from Orestis.
Some names of Upper Macedonians look not apparently Greek (Arrhabaios, Arrhidaios, Derdas, Sabattaras), and some scholars such as Eugene N. Borza argue that the inhabitants of Upper Macedonia retained many of the supposedly non-Hellenic original Macedonian names later lost among Lower Macedonians. Others argue these names may be Hellenic although many do not yet have clear Hellenic etymologies, while others argue that the names were borrowed from Thracians and/or Illyrians..


Many tumuli (burial mounds) containing Illyrian objects made of bronze and iron were discovered at Glasinac (Bosnia), Koman (Albania), and other parts of southeastern Europe. At the height of their expansion the Illyrians extended their frontiers from the Danube River to the Gulf of Ambracia and from the Adriatic Sea to the Shar Mountains.

The New Encyclopaedia Britannica, Volume 1, 1987, pg. 212

In addition with these evidences the following maps seems to be more plausible:

http://www.kosovo.net/sk/history/kosovo_origins/map3.jpg

http://www.ilidh.org/Portals/0/mapa_iliria..JPG

Now I shall confirm the Illyricity of some 'contested' tribes which does not exist any firm consensus between scholars. Who were the Peaonians?


Peonians

Another illyrian community that in its political development reached a higher degree of political organization, were the Peonians. They inhabited the region of today's southern (In addition: Rep.)Macedonia (upper 'Vardar', Stobi and 'Crna Rijeka'), but its borders were changing through a longer period of time. On the east towards the Thracians the border went with the river 'Mesta' from its mouth to its source 'Arda', and from there towards 'Krdjolsko' lake and further towards north. Accoring to sources from some writers (Strabon, VI, 331, 11; 'Plinije'(=Plinius?), IV, 35; 'Livije'(=Livius?), XL, 33, 14), it can be concluded that in its earlier era that their area covered much wider area, including here the parts of northern Greece, on the expense of some of the local communities there. They resided in also Halkidiki.

That the Peonians were belonging to a community of older and more important Balkan peoples that were politically and culturally were much more advanced from other Balkan communities , it can be witnessed by the fact that they are mentioned by Homer as participants of the Trojan war, were they were fighting on the side of Trojans ( ILL. XVII , 350). During Philip II , Peonians recognized Macedonian rule ('Diod.' XVI , 4). After his death they incited rebellion and Alexander had to stop it.

Peonians being direct neighbour of the Greeks maintained close trade religions and as a result fell early under their cultural influence. Thanks to that they were among the first Illyrian communities to have stepped towards civilisational events. Close relations with Greece is confirmed by data that states that certain Peonian rulers were granted honored citizenship rights ('proksenija'='proxenia'?) by some Greek states. That was given in order to thank them for certain services (assistance in wheat, monetarily, military aid and similar). Such relations were especially strong with Athens, which in its own foreign politics and relations with Macedonia was frequently relying on connections with Illyrian and Thracian kings.

Original sources tell us of names of three peonian kings. At the year of 357. B.C. the throne was occupied by 'Agis'. His heir was 'Likpej' (='Likipeas'?) , and at the year of 306. B.C. on the throne was king 'Audoleont' (='Autoleantos'). His son was 'Ariston' , while 'Dropion' was contemporary of Macedonian king 'Demetrije'(='Demetrius'?) II. 4

High economical and cultural development of Peonia is showed through minting of monetary coins. It is known that the Peonian rulers were minting coins as far back as during the era of Greek - Persian wars. This is a witness that the economy of Peonia was based on trade-monetary relations, with all the accompanying institutions. Minting of monetary coins occurred in continuity across long period of time. At the year of 306. B.C. king ' Audoleont' (= 'Autoleontos' ?) minted coins that stated the title 'basileus' (='vasileus'?) , in a likewise manner that Hellenistic monarchs did. The title of 'Basileus' points that the Peonia represented state organization, for if we were talking about tribal organization with tribal leader as a ruler such title ('Basileus') would not be present.

That there was a high level of political organization in Peonia also points advanced urbanisation of the country. Peonian towns were mentioned also by Herodotus ('Doberos' and 'Bymazos' ), and from younger era there were 'Stuberra', 'Astraion', 'Argos', 'Bryanion', 'Bylazora', 'Stobi', 'Idomene' and others. Since for the development of urbanisation precondition is to have strong economic base, in this case there were all the required conjectures. The country had at its disposal large surplus of products, primarily in wheat and metals, which in the trade with Greeks represented strategic goods. Bringing (or coming) of means had increased the wealth of the country, which, and had conditioned peonian society into early class differentiation. This during the course of development has resulted in establishing strong political organization, that in the finishing stage has growned to state organization. 5

Heirs of king 'Audoleont' ruled over Peonia up until middle of II century B.C. From the political standpoint, from those heirs important one was 'Dropion' , contemporary of Macedonian king 'Demetrije' II and 'Dozon' (='Doson'?). During his rule Peonia in the sources is called 'koinon ton Paionon' (state-political community of Peonians). 6 Greeks with the legal expression 'koinon' had marked statehood , characteristic for their own (Greek) communities. Peonian 'koinon' varied from Greek one to a degree that it included villagers, while with Greeks it was based on 'simpoliteja' (='simpoliteria'?) , among whom societal base was a polis, and among Poenians it was a village.

Enver Imamovic
On elements of political organization of illyrian communities
Prilozi', 30, Sarajevo, 2001., pages. 25-41

Zajaz
22-02-11, 21:00
The Illyrian vestiges have also been detected in the north of Greece i.e Acarnania and Aetolia. This is somehow implied by Thucydides. He wrote as well:


«τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. ἐπιχειρεῖν δ᾿ ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται» (ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΗΣ III.94)

III,94: The Aetolian nation, although numerous and warlike, yet dwelt in un-walled villages scattered far apart, and had nothing but light armor, and might, according to the Messenians, be subdued without much difficulty before succors could arrive. The plan which they recommended was to attack first the Apodotians, next the Ophionians, and after these the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language exceedingly difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw.

The 'Barbarians' to which Thucydides is referring are beyond any doubt, Illyrians.


Aetolia (in the Roman sense of the name) had not been greatly affected by Hellenic civilization when the Romans conquered it. Five Aetolian cities, evidently Hellenic and distinguished, figure in Homer. But Thucydides and the Greeks of the classical age regarded the Aetolians as barbaric. […] They extended their rule over tribes to the north whom the Greeks of the great age looked upon as savages. In the pages of Livy, Philip V of Macedon is made to admit the Hellenic character of some Aetolians, but to deny that the greater part of those who bore the name were Greeks. The Aetolians were natural enemies of the more civilized Greek peoples…

The Municipalities of the Roman Empire, p. 412

Even the renowned Roman historian, Livy asserts that Aetolians aren't genuine Greeks:


This pretentious harangue called up Aristaenus, the captain-general of the Achaean League. "I pray," he began, "that Jupiter Optimus Maximus and Queen Juno, the tutelary deities of Argos, may never allow that city to be a bone of contention between the tyrant of Lacedaemon and the robbers of Aetolia, or suffer more after you have recovered it than it did when he captured it. No intervening sea protects us from these brigands. What, then, will be our fate, T. Quinctius, if they make a stronghold for themselves in the very heart of Greece? They have nothing Greek about them but the language, any more than they have anything human about them but the form and appearance of men; their customs and rites are more horrid than those of any barbarians, nay, even than those of savage beasts. We ask you therefore, Romans, to rescue Argos from Nabis and settle the affairs of Greece in such a way that you may leave this country at peace and security even against the robber practices of the Aetolians." (44, 24)

The Illyrian vestiges have also been detected in the north of Greece i.e Acarnania and Aetolia. This is somehow implied by Thucydides. He wrote as well:


«τὸ γὰρ ἔθνος μέγα μὲν εἶναι τὸ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν καὶ μάχιμον, οἰκοῦν δὲ κατὰ κώμας ἀτειχίστους, καὶ ταύτας διὰ πολλοῦ, καὶ σκευῇ ψιλῇ χρώμενον οὐ χαλεπὸν ἀπέφαινον, πρὶν ξυμβοηθῆσαι, καταστραφῆναι. ἐπιχειρεῖν δ᾿ ἐκέλευον πρῶτον μὲν Ἀποδωτοῖς, ἔπειτα δὲ Ὀφιονεῦσι καὶ μετὰ τούτους Εὐρυτᾶσιν, ὅπερ μέγιστον μέρος ἐστὶ τῶν Αἰτωλῶν, ἀγνωστότατοι δὲ γλῶσσαν καὶ ὠμοφάγοι εἰσίν, ὡς λέγονται» (ΘΟΥΚΥΔΙΔΗΣ III.94)

III,94: The Aetolian nation, although numerous and warlike, yet dwelt in un-walled villages scattered far apart, and had nothing but light armor, and might, according to the Messenians, be subdued without much difficulty before succors could arrive. The plan which they recommended was to attack first the Apodotians, next the Ophionians, and after these the Eurytanians, who are the largest tribe in Aetolia, and speak, as is said, a language exceedingly difficult to understand, and eat their flesh raw.

The 'Barbarians' to which Thucydides is referring are beyond any doubt, Illyrians.


Aetolia (in the Roman sense of the name) had not been greatly affected by Hellenic civilization when the Romans conquered it. Five Aetolian cities, evidently Hellenic and distinguished, figure in Homer. But Thucydides and the Greeks of the classical age regarded the Aetolians as barbaric. […] They extended their rule over tribes to the north whom the Greeks of the great age looked upon as savages. In the pages of Livy, Philip V of Macedon is made to admit the Hellenic character of some Aetolians, but to deny that the greater part of those who bore the name were Greeks. The Aetolians were natural enemies of the more civilized Greek peoples…

The Municipalities of the Roman Empire, p. 412

Even the renowned Roman historian, Livy asserts that Aetolians aren't genuine Greeks:


This pretentious harangue called up Aristaenus, the captain-general of the Achaean League. "I pray," he began, "that Jupiter Optimus Maximus and Queen Juno, the tutelary deities of Argos, may never allow that city to be a bone of contention between the tyrant of Lacedaemon and the robbers of Aetolia, or suffer more after you have recovered it than it did when he captured it. No intervening sea protects us from these brigands. What, then, will be our fate, T. Quinctius, if they make a stronghold for themselves in the very heart of Greece? They have nothing Greek about them but the language, any more than they have anything human about them but the form and appearance of men; their customs and rites are more horrid than those of any barbarians, nay, even than those of savage beasts. We ask you therefore, Romans, to rescue Argos from Nabis and settle the affairs of Greece in such a way that you may leave this country at peace and security even against the robber practices of the Aetolians." (44, 24)

I'm pretty sure that the above maps I've brought up are very realistic. I shall put forward an another proof in favor of my thesis (Illyrian being of Epirotes)


Suliones were another Chaonian tribe, named by the poet Rhyanus who is quoted by Steph. Byzantinus (v. Συλίονες). Their name recall to mind the famous Suliotes during the wars for Greek independence.

I think that Suliones are the same with the Selloi, who dwell around Dodona and were ranked as barbarians by Strabo.


Selloi were inhabitants of Epirus of ancient Greece,in a region between Dodona - where existed the oldest reported oracle - and Achelous river.

My point is that Albanian tribe of Suliotes (who use to live in southeast of Jannina) are nothing else but descendants of Συλίονες or Selloi. At least this is suggested by their tribal name: SUL = Συλί -->Σελλοί (who served as well as priests in Dodona sanctuary). To back up my theory I'll present to you John Lee Comstock's opinion regarding this:

http://img194.imageshack.us/img194/3517/72719282.jpg

how yes no 2
22-02-11, 21:13
Zajaz the stage is yours.
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s130/olvios300/Illyria/Illryians-1.jpg

How likely is it that area of influence of Illyrians from map above is not related to spread of I2a2 on map bellow?

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Zajaz
22-02-11, 21:31
Here I've got an another anthropological map regarding southern areas of Illyria i.e Epirus. According to this map it is said that Albanians are one the oldest inhabitants in Europe:

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/racemap.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/22-1.jpg

Neander
22-02-11, 21:58
How likely is it that area of influence of Illyrians from map above is not related to spread of I2a2 on map bellow?It is simple; Slavs came in the lands of Illyrians in the 7 century, therefore their haplogoup is !2a2.

Illyrian distribution in Italy was so strong that they were more then itself italics, but the percentage of I2a2 there is desperate.

how yes no 2
22-02-11, 22:18
Here I've got an another anthropological map regarding southern areas of Illyria i.e Epirus. According to this map it is said that Albanians are one the oldest inhabitants in Europe:

http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/racemap.jpg
http://i653.photobucket.com/albums/uu253/Tyranos/22-1.jpg

maybe you do not know where Albania and Kosovo are, but black spots are matching Montenegro and Epirus...

this map suggest that there was continuity of old inhabitants from Montenegro to Epirus but than it was interrupted in middle by arrival of some not so old people, which would be ancestors of Albanians, as Albania is between Epirus and Montenegro....

btw. I am not convinced this map is correct...
what is the source?


It is simple; Slavs came in the lands of Illyrians in the 7 century, therefore their haplogoup is !2a2.

Illyrian distribution in Italy was so strong that they were more then itself italics, but the percentage of I2a2 there is desperate.
yes, I believe as well that early Slavs (who are of race of Veneti) were dominantly I2a2, but that is not a prove that earlier wave of I2a2 was not already there...

as for Italy, spread of I2a along Adriatic coast on map above matches very nice colonies of Illyrians from map above it, while is mismatch for south Slavs that never settled there... isn't that indication of I2a2 component in Illyrians?


in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35)
Jordanes - the origin and deeds of Goths
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html


Many tribes originally thought to have been Illyrians, such as Carni, Histri and Liburni, were actually related to Veneti.[3]
...
3. ^ Wilkes, J. J. The Illyrians, 1992,ISBN 0-631-19807-5. Page 183: "... We may begin with the Venetic peoples, Veneti, Carni, Histri and Liburni, whose language set them apart from the rest of the Illyrians. ..." Page 81: "... " In Roman Pannonia the Latobici and Varciani who dwelt east of the Venetic Catari in the upper Sava valley were Celtic but the Colapiani of the Colapis (Kulpa) valley were Illyrians ( ..."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti

Neander
22-02-11, 22:58
as for Italy, spread of I2a along Adriatic coast on map above matches very nice colonies of Illyrians from map above it, while is mismatch for south Slavs that never settled there... isn't that indication of I2a2 component in Illyrians?In Italy is antoher hot spot of Ev 13, but only in Croatia, it is very low, which is proof that Slavs drove out Ev13 carriers.

In Italy, the low percentage of I2a2, is because of interchange population beween croatia and Italy during medieval.

In the times of Illyrians I2a2 was not there.

The strong presence of Illyrians in Italy, is not acfording to low and wek presence of I2a2.

Sorry but your theory is no-where.

Zajaz
22-02-11, 23:25
maybe you do not know where Albania and Kosovo are, but black spots are matching Montenegro and Epirus...



It doesn't seem to be interrupted at all. Anyway you can see a narrow strip (across todays Myzeqe coastal) plain matching Northern Albania and Montenegro with Epirus.


this map suggest that there was continuity of old inhabitants from Montenegro to Epirus

...as well as a strong continuity between historical inhabitants of Illyria with Epirus ones.


but than it was interrupted in middle by arrival of some not so old people, which would be ancestors of Albanians, as Albania is between Epirus and Montenegro....

The bold underlined sentence is just a vague assumption of yours because there is no historical evidence suggesting any arrival of Albanians in their lands. The "interruption" as far as I see is caused mostly by the spreading of "Dinaric", "Nordics" and "dark Mediterraneans" as it is written in the legend of map. This is perhaps not very elaborative!? If the author of map was suggesting that the central Albania was peopled from the same race as Slaves, then he is totally wrong. The presence of Slavs isn't well attested in central Albania which is mainly a mountainous region without any fertile plain.

In order to understand properly the above map we have to corroborate it with other available anthropological studies done by American researchers who asserted that Albanians have the highest brachycephalic index in the whole Europe. This bracycephalic zone starts variously from Switzerland (and by some evidences from Southern Bosnia) and stretches up to the Corinthian bay.


btw. I am not convinced this map is correct...
what is the source?

A mate of mine emailed to me a days ago. I have to ask him for the source he brought from!

how yes no 2
22-02-11, 23:41
In Italy is antoher hot spot of Ev 13, but only in Croatia, it is very low, which is proof that Slavs drove out Ev13 carriers.
In Italy, the low percentage of I2a2, is because of interchange population beween croatia and Italy during medieval.
In the times of Illyrians I2a2 was not there.
The strong presence of Illyrians in Italy, is not acfording to low and wek presence of I2a2.
Sorry but your theory is no-where.

you got the good case for E-V13 as Illyrian also for Croatia as E-V13 has high variance in Croatia which indicates that once upon a time it was in high frequency there as well..

but, that still doesnot exclude I2a2 as present in area...

I am thinking of Veneti and Pannoni as source of I2a2 in Illyria and Pannonia and of Scordisci as source of it in Serbia and Pannonia...

Pannoni settled Illyria after it was emptied by Dacians (during their wars with Celtic tribes)


I shall first describe Illyria, which approaches close to the Danube, and to the Alps which lie between Italy and Germany, taking their commencement from the lake in the territory of the Vindelici, Rhæti, and Helvetii.7 [2]
The Daci depopulated a part of this country in their wars with the Boii and Taurisci, Keltic tribes whose chief was Critasirus. The Daci claimed the country, although it was separated from them by the river Parisus,8 which flows from the mountains to the Danube, near the Galatæ Scordisci, a people who lived intermixed with the Illyrian and the Thracian tribes. The Illyrians were destroyed by the Daci, while the Scordisci were frequently their allies.
The rest of the country as far as Segestica,9 and the Danube, towards the north and east, is occupied by Pannonii, but they extend farther in an opposite direction.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=7:chapter= 5&highlight=

Strabo (63/64 BC – ca. AD 24) - Geographica

this historical record clearly shows that Illyria was depopulated but not by Slavs (as erroneously claimed by politically motivated ideologists of Albanian nationalism), but by Dacians much much before arrival of Slavs (if such arrival was ever massive)

Pannoni and Scordisci I think were I2a2 and Thracians R1a

Scordisci being mixed with Thracians and Illyrians, might be about I2a2 proto-Serbs mixed with Illyrian E-V13 and with Thracian R1a

Illyria was repopulated by Pannoni....

why I search proto-Slavs in Pannoni, Thracians and Scordisci...
because of this clue...


After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

(translation of early medieval Russian document from year 1113th that narrates about history of Slavic people...read more on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle)

note that in time it is written Bulgaria and Hungary were neighboring states, which means this is about proto-Slavic people area around Danube from Black sea to Bohemia including parts of Serbia and Romania around Danube... this in antic people matches Thracians, Scordisci (or Serdi), and Pannoni....

note that also I2a2 shows spread along Danube from Black sea to Bohemia, and also spread along Carpathian mountains which is where it was pushed with advance of Roman empire...
now, if Scordisci and Pannoni were I2a2, reason I ask whether I2a2 could have been present already in Illyrians, is that in Greek mythology Scordisci and Pannoni origin from Illyrians...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

so, it could have been that already among Illyrians there were some I2a2 tribes...

and I find link in Venetic tribes (for whom I independently from this am sure are I2a2)...
link is that early Slavs are in historic records recorded as people who origin from populous race of Veneti


the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes.

http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

how yes no 2
23-02-11, 00:00
The bold underlined sentence is just a vague assumption of yours because there is no historical evidence suggesting any arrival of Albanians in their lands.

nope that sentence is not vague... Albanians live between Epirus and Montenegro...discontinuity on that (probably fake) map of old people is centered between Epirus and Montengro...thus this discontinuity is due to people who settled area between Epirus and Montenegro... and these people are obviously ancestors of Albanians... what is so difficult to understand there?
once you stop thinking with your wishes and start searching for truth, life will become easier for you...

Zajaz
23-02-11, 00:31
thus this discontinuity is due to people who settled area between Epirus and Montenegro... and these people are obviously ancestors of Albanians... what is so difficult to understand there?


I'm really not in the mood to go in the same circles again and again. The reason why the author erroneously made an interruption may be attributed to the exaggeration of Slavic presence in central Albania. I try to be concise as much as I can: I assure you on behalf of all evidences that central Albania (as well as North Albania) were distant regions which were touched little by Slavic waves. I'm not saying that there were no Slavs in Albania but their slight presence can be attested only in some fertile plains along river valleys in Shkodra for instance or along valleys in nearby of Ohrid. That's the story of Slavs in Albania who unlike their kins in Greece, Macedonia or somewhere else couldn't extent effectively their presence because mountainous nature of Albanian hardly attract them to settled in.


Between 600 and 650 the main body of the immigrants occupied Illyria (see Servia: History; and Slavs). It consisted of Croats and Serbs, two groups of tribes who spoke a single language and were so closely related that the origin of the distinction between them is obscure. The Croats settled in the western half of Illyria, the Serbs in the eastern; thus the former came gradually under the influence of Italy and Roman Catholicism, the latter under the influence of Byzantium and the Greek Church. Hence the distinction between them became a marked difference of civilization and creed, which has always tended to keep the Illyrian Slavs politically disunited.

The Croats and Serbs rapidly absorbed most of the Latinized Illyrians. But the wealthy and powerful city-states on the coast were strong enough to maintain their independence and their distinctively Italian character. Other Roman provincials took refuge in the mountains of the interior; these Mavrovlachi, as they were called (see Dalmatia: Population; and Vlachs), preserved their language and nationality for many centuries. The Illyrian tribes which had withstood the attraction of Roman civilization remained unconquered among the mountains of Albania and were never Slavonized. With these exceptions Illyria became entirely Serbo-Croatian in population, language and culture.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/.../Illyria*.html

I have the honor to present to you the scientific assertions of a renowned expert on that matter:


The Epirotes, like their neighbors the Toscs, have an extremely high cephalic index mean, 88, and there seems to be a strongly brachycephalic zone running down the western slopes of the mountain core from Albania to the Gulf of Corinth, and perhaps beyond.

The races of Europe, Carleton Stevens, CoonGreenwood Press, 1972


once you stop thinking with your wishes and start searching for truth, life will become easier for you...

buddy take aside jokes! I am not wishfully thinking because all of my posts up to now are very well-attached with references, books and sources.

how yes no 2
23-02-11, 00:47
buddy take aside jokes! I am not wishfully thinking because all of my posts up to now are very well-attached with references, books and sources.

nope, that's not really true...
your posts are mainly references to interpretations of historical facts, not to facts themselves...

when I quote Strabo or Jordanes, that is about real person who recorded real events around them...

when you quote story of Serbs and Croats assimilating Illyrians, you are quoting recent interpreter of ancient history who based his interpretation on assumpition that Illyria = place where Illyrian people lived...

but if we go back to historic sources, Strabo who lived in 1st century AD clearly indicates that Illyria was depopulated and Illyrians destroyed before that time..so, clearly Roman province of Illyria has not much to do with original Illyrians as erroneously assumed by much later interpreter of history whom you are quoting...... what he call Illyrians are in fact Veneti and Pannoni tribes...

if both assumption that Illyrians were E-V13 (and thus ancestors of Albanians) and the interpreter of history whom you quote are correct, Croatians would have around 30% of E-V13 as e.g. Montenegro people do... they do not because either
1) E-V13 Illyrians were cleaned up much before their arrival by Dacians as indicated by Strabo
or
2) because E-V13 is maybe pre-Illyrian in Croatia and Illyrians are I2a2

I think option 1) is correct because ancestors of Slavs (according to Russian primary chronicle) lived along Danube and in Noricum (Adriatic Veneti?) and not in Illyria, but I do not exclude completely option 2) as I am pretty sure that ancient Veneti were I2a people, so nearby Illyrians might have been related afterall...

btw. read this opinion of mine about origin of Albanian language and why it doesnot map to few preserved Illyrian words, but instead shares part of vocabulary with Romanian

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=366151&postcount=35

Regulus
23-02-11, 01:19
In Italy is antoher hot spot of Ev 13, but only in Croatia, it is very low, which is proof that Slavs drove out Ev13 carriers.

In Italy, the low percentage of I2a2, is because of interchange population beween croatia and Italy during medieval.

In the times of Illyrians I2a2 was not there.

The strong presence of Illyrians in Italy, is not acfording to low and wek presence of I2a2.

Sorry but your theory is no-where.


I am just still a learner, but in looking at DNA questions, perhaps we should consider the quite substantial settlements of Illyrians along almost the entire Adriatic coast of Italy between the 13th and 10th centuries BCE.

They seem to have been in control of the entire heel and in some parts as far inland as the mountains.

Elias2
23-02-11, 06:11
My point is that Albanian tribe of Suliotes



Hmm are you saying albanians are the decendents of Illyrians?
The Illyrian tribes which had withstood the attraction of Roman civilization remained unconquered among the mountains of Albania and were never Slavonized. With these exceptions Illyria became entirely Serbo-Croatian in population, language and culture.

No one escaped romanization during the roman empire. Illyria was one of the first areas to be subjected to Roman rule. Even england, one of the last roman conqured areas was well romanized when the anglo-Jutes-saxans came from denmark. I'm talking about the area of albania was under the control of Roman culture from 220BC to the 15th century when the Ottomans came, thats 1700 years. If you want to know more about the emergence of albanian ethos I think you need to look at the years during Ottoman occupation.

And on your points about the 'barbarian' label. You automatically assum that means Illyrian, why is that?

You also didn't say anything on what it means to be Illyrian, you seem to be obsessed though in trying to make Epirots into this undifined thing, and using a political insult in ancient greece to define what it is to be Illyrian. Maybe the northern Hellenic people didn't live in as sofiticated socieities as the well established southern greeks, which would prompt southern greeks to look at them as more barbaric, but this never occured to you? Do you see what it as fault with your logic? you assume to many variables without proper primary evidence to back it up. its all just speculation based on some, not all, written evidence about epirots and Illyrians.

Elias2
23-02-11, 06:16
It is simple; Slavs came in the lands of Illyrians in the 7 century, therefore their haplogoup is !2a2.

Illyrian distribution in Italy was so strong that they were more then itself italics, but the percentage of I2a2 there is desperate.

Yet it has been discused on these forums that maybe the slavic invasion wasn't so massive as once thought do to genetic findings, so your ethnicity definition of people doesn't hold much wieght, as albanians don't have much genetically in common with the inhabitants of the old areas of Illyria, which would mean Illyrians were probably just a label that encompased peoples who lived in this set geographical area.

iapetoc
23-02-11, 12:18
EPEIRUS IS NOT ILLYRIA

EPEIRUS is Mycenean Culture and proves are the tombs of Mycenean

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/01/EpirusMycynaen.jpg

as also Pseudoskyllax Geography

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Epirus_antiquus_tabula.jpg


EPEIROS IS NOT ILLYRIA

ILLYRIA STARTS FROM ΑΥΛΩΝ VLORE AND NORTH
THE ECHELEIANS AND TAULANTI ARE THE MOST SOUTH ILLYRIANS
the tribes of Amantes and Bylliotes are Illyrian Tribes who were Hellenized at 400-200 BC but could be Albanized today

Paionians are not Illyrians but Greco-Thracians and has connection with Greek Area of Agrinion due to Endymion
Paions or SiroPAioKes are considered Thracians different from Odrysse
their tribes like Agrianes Syntikes odomandetikes are Thracians But we find similarity with Greek King Names, that is because Thracians probably have have a link with pelasgic culture
Besides Paiones Paioples Paiakes (remember Phaiakes) in Far ancient Means nation,
Probably Pelasgic-Thracians

but Siropaiakes as Agrianes the Greek name for Sirakes could connect them with proto-Serbians cause we know that Sirakes are considered Proto Serbians

Ancient God Sirris godess of agricultural, Perso-Thracian godess (Greek Dimeter)
Sir = agrianas in Greek

In fact that is still a mystery How Agrinio and Paiones with Greek names are worshippng godes Sirris which is Mesopotamian-Persian Godess,
Probably that connection with Skudra Skodra


As Infact Greeks Name Illyria the area from Αυλον-Vlore to Λαβεατες today Budva
Above Illyria was Επιδαυρος Φαρος and Adra sea.

The roman Named Illyria that Area Illyricum that is show in the map
Dalmatia was not Illyria for Greeks

Zajaz
23-02-11, 15:31
[QUOTE]when I quote Strabo or Jordanes, that is about real person who recorded real events around them...

you are quoting recent interpreter of ancient history who based his interpretation on assumpition that Illyria = place where Illyrian people lived...


The reason why I chose as a reference them is because they're more recent scholars who are more familiar with the new scientific results. I can go further by citing a lot of real persons (as you would say) of Byzantine provenience who firmly asserts that Albanians are an Illyrian race. Whereas many others identified Albanians as Macedonians or Epirotes. The Turks regarded Albanians as ‘Arnauts’, Greeks as ‘Arvanites’. If ancestors of modern Albanians were of Asiatic descent (as many wish to be), the Byzantine, Turkish, Serb and Greek historians would named Albanians under the termination of any Asiatic tribe. On the contrary, the very often names to marks ancestors of us were Illyrians, Arvanites, Arnauts, specifically Epirotes and more rarely Macedonian.


1. Polybius mentions a city on modern central Albania called Arbon (its peoples he called Arbanios and Arbanitai)
2. Pliny mentions an Illyrian tribe named Olbonenses (Pannonia)
3. Ptolemy the geographer recorded a city called Albanopolis (according to his coordinates it may be found near Durrës territory). He named its inhabitants as Albanoi in his chapter about Macedonia.
4. Stephanus of Byzantium wrote for a population called abroi from Adria Taulantii and a city in Illyria called Arbon,

http://img710.imageshack.us/img710/7987/iliretjemine.png

I don't want to comment any further on genetics since I'm not very familiar with that field.

Zajaz
23-02-11, 15:45
And on your points about the 'barbarian' label. You automatically assum that means Illyrian, why is that?


Because Greeks applied frequently this term to denote both Illyrians, Macedonians, Epirotes, Thracians, etc. So if you maintain the view that 'barbarian' term had the connotation of 'backward' Greek, then you're making all Illyrians, Thracians etc as backward Greeks!!! I am pretty convinced that both of these peoples were related closely with one another. How can be explained that ancients frequently confuse them with one another. For example, one author said that X tribe is Illyrian, others says that this tribe is Epirotean. You can't figure any sharp distinction between Illyrian and Epirotes, while in other hand, Greeks themselves reckoned Epirotes as non-Greeks.


No one escaped romanization during the roman empire. Illyria was one of the first areas to be subjected to Roman rule. Even england, one of the last roman conqured areas was well romanized when the anglo-Jutes-saxans came from denmark. I'm talking about the area of albania was under the control of Roman culture from 220BC to the 15th century when the Ottomans came, thats 1700 years. If you want to know more about the emergence of albanian ethos I think you need to look at the years during Ottoman occupation.


Nowhere I said that Illyrians escaped completely from Romanization. Even certain parts of Albania (especially the coastal ones and fertile plains) were Romanized as many evidences proves that. But I'd like to notice the very fact that however the southern mountanious Illyrian tribes were able to withstand Romanization. So they retained their Illyrian identity into Albanian one. Check it up the following conclusion:


The native Illyrians and Thracians of the occupied regions retired into the mountains, where they remained unnoticed till the eleventh century, when they emerged as Albanians and Vlachs

ETHNIC CHANGES IN THE BYZANTINE EMPIRE IN THE SEVENTH CENTURY"
PETER CHARANIS

Sprinkles
23-02-11, 16:17
If R1a carriers were in the Balkans 11,5000 years ago, and the E-V13 subclade only split from an African subclade 16,000 years ago. i find it very difficult to assume that they existed there prior to the indigenous Neanderthal populations.

Since we know now that E-V13 is African, there's neanderthal admixture in European populations (closely resembling the the frequency of haplogroup R), that I is indigenous to Europe, that E is indigenous to Africa - it's retarded to say that E carriers were the oldest people of Europe. Retarded.

Anyone making this claim is a moron.

The capital of Illyria was in Stolac, Hercegovina, where I2a2 has the highest frequency in the world.

At the delta of Neretva, there was a strong Hellenistic influence on the Illyrian tribe of Daors. Their capital was Daorson located in Ošanići near Stolac in Herzegovina, which became the main center of classical Illyrian culture. Daorson, during the 4th century BC, was surrounded by megalithic, 5 meter high stonewalls (as large as those of Mycenae in Greece), composed out of large trapeze stones blocks. Daors also made unique bronze coins and sculptures. The Illyrians even conquered Greek colonies on the Dalmatian islands. Queen Teuta was famous for having waged wars against the Romans.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians

You Albanian retards are making your people look stupid. The same can be said for various fractions of Balkan populations, but it's obvious that Albanians take the cake.

This fictional rendition of your history is not helping your public image. It may help you, internally, as a clan. But if it does, keep it there, because once you spew it outward, your stupidity reeks to the world.

Sprinkles
23-02-11, 16:22
In Italy is antoher hot spot of Ev 13, but only in Croatia, it is very low, which is proof that Slavs drove out Ev13 carriers.

In Italy, the low percentage of I2a2, is because of interchange population beween croatia and Italy during medieval.

In the times of Illyrians I2a2 was not there.

The strong presence of Illyrians in Italy, is not acfording to low and wek presence of I2a2.

Sorry but your theory is no-where.
Are you the idiot who thinks E-V13 is an indigenous European haplogroup?

Are you serious? Do you know that it's an African branch. That every person with an E-V13 haplogroup had a pure black African ancestor? This is fact. There's no, maybe our ancestor was Neanderthal or some other hominid, your ancestor was black from Africa.

Europe was colonized way before E-V13 even came to existence. You were still in Africa singing your tribal songs and doing tribal dances, without any weapons or shelter. You probably lived as nomads because you weren't smart enough to build shelter.

Now shut your stupid mouth and come back to reality.

Europe was colonized way before E-V13 arrived.

Are you so dumb that you can't see this?

Sprinkles
23-02-11, 16:25
E-V13 never made it to Croatia because of the Dinaric Alps and the difficulty in conquering or even traveling through that route.

Did you even take an introductory course to biology?

Do you know that gene flow is hindered by geographic isolation?

******* seriously. You want to talk about evolution, population flows, etc, and you don't even know anything about biology?

Elias2
23-02-11, 16:31
Sprinkles you don`t have to use name calling.

Elias2
23-02-11, 16:41
Because Greeks applied frequently this term to denote both Illyrians, Macedonians, Epirotes, Thracians, etc. So if you maintain the view that 'barbarian' term had the connotation of 'backward' Greek, then you're making all Illyrians, Thracians etc as backward Greeks!!! I am pretty convinced that both of these peoples were related closely with one another. How can be explained that ancients frequently confuse them with one another. For example, one author said that X tribe is Illyrian, others says that this tribe is Epirotean. You can't figure any sharp distinction between Illyrian and Epirotes, while in other hand, Greeks themselves reckoned Epirotes as non-Greeks.

Again, you havn`t told me what it is to be Illyrian but you claim epirots are them. You say the biggest marker is language yet the Illyrian language is still a mystery because the lack of primary evidence about it. And I`ve metnioned plenty of times now that even though some called them non-greeks others did, so stop pretending to ignore these statements because they do not suit you.

The 5th century BC Athenian historian Thucydides (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thucydides) describes them as "barbarians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbarian#Origin_of_the_term)",[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-14) as does Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo).[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-15) Other writers, such as Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus),[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-16)Dionysius of Halicarnassus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dionysius_of_Halicarnassus)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-17) Pausanias (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pausanias_%28geographer%29)[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-18) and Eutropius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eutropius_%28historian%29),[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-19) describe them as Greeks

and stop pretending they did not speak a dialect of North-west Greek. I don`t say that `barbarian`only means backwards greeks, that just one of the several connitations. It also ment non-greek like you said but for you interpret it to mean Illyrian when that is just one of several possible definitions of the word is an assumption.

P.S. I posted an article i found about the albanian language in the albanian language thread, check it out.

Elias2
23-02-11, 16:46
Can we please stop talking about epirus and talk about Illyria, who were they, what were they like, how did they live, ect.

Zajaz
23-02-11, 20:45
Again, you havn`t told me what it is to be Illyrian but you claim epirots are them. You say the biggest marker is language yet the Illyrian language is still a mystery because the lack of primary evidence about it.

Actually I gave to you a well definition what was meant to be Illyrian at that time. I'll try to compare Herodotean's criterion to determine the "nation" of Illyrians. To be more correct let's show an interesting point of view regarding 'national' identity of the Hellenes according to Herodotus:


...αὖτις δὲ τὸ Ἑλληνικὸν ἐὸν ὅμαιμόν τε καὶ ὁμόγλωσσον καὶ θεῶν ἱδρύματά τε κοινὰ καὶ θυσίαι ἤθεά τε ὁμότροπα...

...there is the bond of Hellenic race, by which we are of one blood and of one speech, the common temples of the gods and the common sacrifices, the manners of life which are the same for all ... Ancients did call as Illyrians the tribes north of Ambracia up to the Danubian shores. We are well acquainted that Illyria's tribes were of the same blood, spoke an language with its local variants, had the same myths of a common origin, had the same manners of life, etc. I find as necessary to put forth some valuable descriptions by Appian:


[§1] The Greeks call those people Illyrians who occupy the region beyond Macedonia (http://www.livius.org/maa-mam/macedonia/macedonia.html) and Thrace from Chaonia and Thesprotia to the river Danube (http://www.livius.org/da-dd/danube/danube.html).
Illyrius had six sons, Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, and Perrhaebus, also daughters, Partho, Daortho, Dassaro, and others, from whom sprang the Taulantii, the Perrhaebi, the Enchelees, the Autarienses, the Dardani, the Partheni, the Dassaretii, and the Darsii. Autarieus had a son Pannonius, or Paeon, and the latter had sons, Scordiscus and Triballus, from whom nations bearing similar names were derived. But I will leave these matters to antiquarians.
And I`ve metnioned plenty of times now that even though some called them non-greeks others did, so stop pretending to ignore these statements because they do not suit you.well...I friendly invite you to put forth all citations stating that Epirotes were Greeks. Let discuss further about them if their authors really says so or are just modern interpretation. I am afraid that a couple of more cited passages to advocate the Hellenism of Epirotes are very vague.


P.S. I posted an article i found about the albanian language in the albanian language thread, check it out.I'll check it out when I have more free time!


Can we please stop talking about epirus and talk about Illyria, who were they, what were they like, how did they live, ect. As you wish mate! Although I do not think that Epirus should be treated separate from Illyria. However I shall bring more infos on Illyrians, their main tribes, boundaries, the manners of life, their spoken language, culture, etc. It just a matter of time because I am quite busy recent times.

iapetoc
23-02-11, 21:43
zajaz

but all agree that Endymion begat Paeon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeon_%28son_of_Endymion%29), Epeius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epeius), Aetolus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolus,_son_of_Endymion), and also a daughter Eurycyda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurycyda).

Pannon was son of Illyrus, Paeon is son of Endymion
PAnnoni and Paioni are different tribes and among them were the Tribaldi

Paion is clear area around Skopje to mount Aimos and Syntike
from Makedonians we know that,
Pannoni is area far north in Bosnia, there is no connection among Paiones and Pannoni, except Thracian LAnguage the possible we can recon for Paioni, cause we know that Didn't belong to Odrysse Thracian Family,
But in middle of Tribaldi and Brygians relatives,
their kings had Greek names and took places in olympics but they were clear considered as Greeks and we don't know if that was from Makedonian politicks, or for throne rights,

Zajaz
24-02-11, 00:02
but all agree that Endymion begat Paeon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeon_%28son_of_Endymion%29), Epeius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epeius), Aetolus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aetolus,_son_of_Endymion), and also a daughter Eurycyda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurycyda). ,




Mythology offers many versions which contradicts each other. It is true that according to that legend, Paeon is son of Endymion:

[QUOTE]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paeon_%28son_of_Endymion%29

But this does not reject at all any similarity with the Illyrian tribe of Pannonians. It has been thought that Paeonians have an obvious 'Northern' origin and may be associated with Pannonians themselves. Archeological excavations brought in light the very fact that Paeonians may be consider as bearers of Bubanj Hum group, an archeological zone in the vicinity of today's Nish (Serbia). Appian seems to confound the tribal names of Pannonians and Paeonians, hence he claimed to be derived from the same ancestor.

Dian
24-02-11, 02:27
Zajaz the stage is yours.

A very interesting map to start discussion about Illyria or Ylliria is this:

http://www.meer.org/ebook/herodotus-world-map-1a.jpg
http://www.emersonkent.com/images/herodotus_map_of_the_world.jpg
http://www.old-map-blog.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/World_Map_Herodotus.jpg
http://www.emba.uvm.edu/~wilson/herodotus%20world%20map.jpg
http://www.19thcenturyscience.org/HMSC/HMSC-Reports/1895-Summary/Plates-150ppi/Plate-2a.jpg

julia90
24-02-11, 03:06
In Apulia:

IAPYGES

the Iapyges have unknown[1][2] origins but could have been from Illyria.[3]
They spoke the Messapian language since the Messapians themselves were the southernmost tribe of the Iapyges. Their other tribes included the Dauni and the Peucetii.[4]
The name Iapyges is derived from Greek authors who linked the tribe's origin to Dedalus's son Iapyx. They were called Apuli, Salentini (or Sallentini) and Calabri by Roman authors. Iapygians were akin to the Oenotrians, an ancient Italic people who lived in the territory of Basilicata and Northern Calabria.
Herodotus gives a mythological tale of origin from the island of Crete.[5]


an iscription in Messapic:

klohi zis thotoria marta pido vastei basta veinan aran in daranthoa vasti staboos xohedonas daxtassi vaanetos inthi trigonoxo a staboos xohetthihi dazimaihi beiliihi inthi rexxorixoa kazareihi xohetthihi toeihithi dazohonnihi inthi vastima daxtas kratheheihi inthi ardannoa poxxonnihi a imarnaihi

Venetic weren't illyrians, maybe italics

with this Good night. it's late here.

Garrick
24-02-11, 03:55
Science has not proved who are the Illyrians, but with the researchs of haplogroups all will be discovered as research progresses.

There are a lot of Albanians, Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, etc. think they are Illyrian.

In Croatia in the 19th century, founded a movement called Illyrian movement:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement)

The Illyrian movement (Croatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_language): Ilirski pokret, Slovene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_language): Ilirsko gibanje), also Croatian national revival (Hrvatski narodni preporod), was a cultural and political campaign initiated by a group of young Croatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatia) intellectuals during the first half of 19th century, around the years of 1835–1849 (there is some disagreement regarding the official dates).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement#cite_note-0#cite_note-0) This movement aimed to create a Croatian national establishment in Austria-Hungary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austria-Hungary) through linguistic and ethnic unity among South Slavs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Slavs).
...
The movement ... also found supporters among prominent Serbs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs) of the time, most notably Vuk Stefanović Karadžić (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vuk_Stefanovi%C4%87_Karad%C5%BEi%C4%87), the reformer of Serbian language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language).

Profesor John Wilkes Of University Of London claims Bosnians Are Illyrians. He found out that Romanization, Hellenization or Slavenization of the Illyrians has never taken place.

John Wilkes, Illyrian, Willey-Blackwell, 1995
www.amazon.ca/Illyrians-John-Wilkes/dp/0631198075 (http://www.amazon.ca/Illyrians-John-Wilkes/dp/0631198075)

After that, the survey revealed haplogroup in the Balkans are a lot of interesting things.
So the nations in the Balkans whose share of R1a is the largest compared to others are Slovenes and Croats.

Pericic et al, 2005
R1a, Slovenian 37%, Croatian (mainland) 34.3%
http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html (http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964.full.pdf+html)

Romanians and Serbs are very close populations that are graphically shown Ferri et al in their work in 2010, also Bosnians and Macedonian FYROM are close to the them.

This is not surprising given the dominance of I haplogroup.

I haplogroup
Herzegovinians 70.91%, Pericic et al, 2005
Bosnians 53.65%, Pericic et al, 2005
Serbia 47,97%, Mirabal et al, 2010
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/abstract (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/abstract)
Romania 43.5%, Rootsi et al, 2004
Croatia (mainland),36.10%, Pericic et al

Of all the people in the Balkans and Europe closest to the Egyptians are Gheg Albanians.
Ferri et al, 2010.

Among Gheg Albanian dominates E haplogroup (mainly E-V13, but are present and E-M78 *, E-M81 and E-M123)

E haplogroup
Gheg Albanians, 41.82%
http://www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/ (http://www.springerlink.com/content/dtl1021500429242/)
Albanian Kosovar (they are Gheg also), 47.20%
E-M78 1.75%, E-V13 43.85%, E-M81 0.90%, E-M123 0.90%
Pericic et al, 2005

At some Russian sites haplogroup E-M35 (E-M78 belongs it, and subhaplogroup E-V13 belongs E-M78) is called the Illyrian.

E - иллирийцы,хамитский род E1b1b1 (М35)
E - Illyrian, Hamitic clan E1b1b (M35)

my.mail.ru/community/history_civil/581DC5A5982C9E59.html


In fact the whole story about the Illyrians being the following:

Is the territory of Roman Illyricum same as the territory Greek Illyria?
The northern tribes of Roman Illyricum were I (and maybe R1a) bearers and south tribes were E carriers?
Did Illyrians belong to I or E haplogroup, in other words, if the Illyrians were Old Europeans or Hamites?

This will establish the science.

But apparently today we can say that in the Roman Illyricum inhabitants north and south consisted of two completely different populations.

Judging by today's schedule haplogroups the border is most likely went through the middle of Montenegro.

E-V13 may be only made south of Dalmatia which is the northernmost where it reached.

So if it is right that the Illyrians = Hamites = E carriers, then the northern tribes, who were I (and maybe R1a) carriers can not be called Illyrians.

If it is correct to the Illyrians = Old Europeans = I carriers, then the southern tribes, who were E carriers can not be called Illyrians.

Roman Illyricum was the only administrative unit and it is not meant to territory that was inhabited by the Illyrians, as one of two main populations of Roman Illyricum, I carriers or E carriers, were not Illyrians.



It is a bit absurd that individuals show maps where act as in wide areas of today's Croatia were the same population as in the southern parts of the Roman Illyricum where lived E-V13 carriers. This is not true because E-V13 carriers never reached those areas in today's Croatia.

iapetoc
25-02-11, 04:28
The Greeks were the first literate people to come into frequent contact with the speakers of Illyrian languages. Their conception of "Illyroi", however, differed from what the Romans would later call "Illyricum". The Greek term encompassed only the peoples who lived on the borders of Macedonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macedonia_%28ancient_kingdom%29) and Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29). Pliny the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder), in his work Natural History, applies a stricter usage of the term Illyrii when speaking of Illyrii proprie dicti ("Illyrians properly so-called") among the native communities in the south of Roman Dalmatia.

That is Illyria, above Labeates Budva is not Illyria But Adra (adriatic) Dalmatia

Dalmatia has no connection with Illyria

don't mess Illyricum with Dalmatia,
the same Bullshit happened when Byzantines named Makedonia the Bulgaria

Zajaz
12-03-11, 20:38
Who were the Chaones? (http://www.albpelasgian.com/uncategorized/who-were-the-chaones.html)


(http://www.albpelasgian.com/uncategorized/who-were-the-chaones.html#respond)Who were the Chaones?
http://dodona.scripts.mit.edu/dodona-banner-small.jpg
It’s really becoming boring to read articles in Wikipedia that are poisoned and twisted by the nationalist Greek propaganda. This does not surprise us much because it is a known fact that Greece sponsors these kinds of campaigns to promote the ‘Hellenic’ past of Macedonia and Epirus, both non-Greek regions that were conquered by Greece in 1913. As a matter of fact, the Greek government, as per their revelations, spent over 130 million US dollars from 1989 to 1993 in buying reporters who will promote the “Hellenism” of Macedonia abroad and the “macedonization” of Greece at home. This case was first reported by Athens based Eleftherotypia in 1994.

Most commonly they prefer to quote N.G.L. Hammond as source to prove the ‘Hellenic’ Epirus. Our renowned hero called N.G.L. Hammond (who is accredited in British circles as specialist on Epirus matters) many times makes mistakes that would shame even a first grade student. At first to strengthen the idea that Epirotes were archaic Greeks, Hammond artfully selects a quotation of Ps-Scylax to assume that he (Ps-Scylax) distinguishes Illyrians from Chaones (one of the major Epirotic tribes). This is sufficient for him to proclaim the Hellenism of Chaones. Let us take a look at Hammond’s nonsense:


“Inscriptional evidence of the Chaones is lacking until the Hellinistic period; but Ps-Scylax, describing the situation of c. 380-360 put the Southern limit of the Illyrians just north of the Chaones, which indicates that the Chaones did not speak Illyrian, and the acceptance of the Chaones into the Epirote alliance in the 330s suggest strongly that they were Greek-speaking” (1).

To have a clear image as to what Ps-Scylax is saying let us quote the original phrase in Greek:


[Ps-Scylax, Europe 1.28]: “ΧΑΟΝΕΣ. Μετὰ δὲ Ἰλλυριοὺς Χάονες. Ἡ δὲ Χαονία ἐστὶν εὐλίμενος· οἰκοῦσι δὲ κατὰ κώμας οἱ Χάονες. Παράπλους δ’ ἐστὶ Χαονίας ἥμισυ ἡμέρας.”

Translation:


”CHAONES. After the Illyrians, Chaonians. Chaonia has good harbours: the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day”.

If we take just a piece of the text, then maybe we come to conclusions similar to those of Hammond, but if we take a look in another paragraph, we completely change our mind:


[Ps-Scylax, Europe 1.28]: “ΑΜΒΡΑΚΙΑ. Μετὰ δὲ Μολοττίαν Ἀμβρακία πόλις Ἑλληνίς· ἀπέχει δὲ αὕτη ἀπὸ θαλάττης στάδια π. Ἔστι δὲ καὶ ἐπὶ θαλάττης τεῖχος καὶ λιμὴν κλειστός. Ἐντεῦθεν ἄρχεται ἡ Ἑλλὰς συνεχὴς εἶναι μέχρι Πηνειοῦ ποταμοῦ καὶ Ὁμολίου Μαγνητικῆς πόλεως, ἥ ἐστι παρὰ τὸν ποταμόν


”AMBRAKIA. And after Molottia, Ambrakia, a Hellenic city: and this is distant from sea 80 stades. And there is also upon the sea a fort and an enclosed harbour. From here Hellas begins to be continuous as far as Peneios river and Homolion, a city of Magnesian territory, which is beside the river”.

According to Ps-Scylax, Greece starts from Ambracia and does not include Epirus. Not to anger our southern neighbors, we will bring two more quotations that prove just that:


[Strabo book 8/1/1]: “After the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, then, come the following peoples of the Greeks: the Acarnanians, the Aetolians, and the Ozolian Locrians; and, next, the Phocians and Boeotians; and opposite these, across the arm of the sea, is the Peloponnesus, which with these encloses the Corinthian Gulf”.


[Strabo book 8/1/3]: “Ephorus says that, if one begins with the western parts, Acarnania is the beginning of Greece; for, he adds, Acarnania is the first to border on the tribes of the Epeirotes”.

Point of interest:


Strabo distinguishes Epeirotes and Illyrians from Greeks (Acarnanians, Aetolians, Locrians, Phocians and Boetians).
Strabo marks Acarnania as the beginning of Greece which implies that Epirus was never part of Greece.

http://www.illyrians.org/images/cameria/foto3.jpg
Ancient literary sources are more than enough to reinforce the fact that Chaones (Χάονες) were part of the Illyrian family (2). According to Virgil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil), “Chaon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaon)” (an obvious Trojan name) was the eponymous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eponymous) ancestor of the Chaones (Virgil. Aeneid, 3.295). John Buckler (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&tbs=bks:1&q=inauthor:%22John+Buckler%22&ei=fohGTYD_FM6_4gaW9cEf&ved=0CCkQ9Ag) stresses out that “The Chaones were Illyrians who bordered Epeiros on the north and the Molossians on their west, all three peoples being Kerkyra’s closest mainland neighbours…(3)”.
http://www.archart.it/guida-archeologia/wp-content/uploads/2010/02/corinto-tempio-apollo.jpg
Therefore if we sum up all the evidences provided to us by ancient writers, we notice that most of them prove the non-Greek identity of Chaones. They were frequently referred with various terms as Pelasgians, Thracians or as close relatives to Illyrians (4). An another decisive proof for Illyrian being of Chaones comes from Hecataeus of Miletus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecataeus_of_Miletus) of the 6th century BC describing “Dexaroi” as the most northern Chaonian tribe. Hammond deliberately tries to reject the Illyrian being of this Chaonian sub-tribe, although there are a plethora of literary and archeological evidences enlightening the very fact that Dexaroi were nothing but a duplicate of the Illyrian tribe of Dassaretae. This become more conclusive from a legend (transmitted to us by Appian), who portray “Dassaro” (the female eponym of Dassareates) as one of the daughters of Illyrius. Their various cities like Pellion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pellion), Antipatrea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antipatrea), Chrysondyon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrysondyon), Gertous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gertous) (or Gerous) and Creonion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creonion) are archeologically ascertained to have been Illyrian centres.
http://m1.ikiwq.com/img/xl/nheeH2tT2gdvNeMLy2BcIa.jpg
In addition with the above mentioned proofs, it should be pay attention to an another striking fact: “Suliones” were a Chaonian tribe, named by the poet Rhyanus who is quoted by Steph. Byzantinus (v. Συλίονες). Their name recall to mind the famous Suliotes during the wars for Greek independence (6). This become conclusive not only with the strict resemblance between the name of Albanian Suliotes (Suliote = Συλίονες) but even their geographical extension is almost the same, which make us to believe for a lineal continuity of old Chaones to the modern Albanians of Chameria region.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e5/Souliotes_19th_century_painting.jpg

Footnotes:
(1) The Cambridge Ancient History – The Expansion of the Greek World, Eighth to Sixth Centuries B.C., Part 3: Volume 3″ by P Mack Crew, 1992, p. 284
(2) The New Encyclopaedia Britannica: Volume 1 (http://books.google.com/books?id=YaRXAAAAMAAJ&q=They+were+divided+into+many+tribes+of+which+the+ best+known+are,+from+north+to+south:+Dalmatae,+Ard aei,+Dardani,+Albani.+Taulantii,+Labeati,+Orestes, +Molossi.+Chaones,+and+Thesproti.&dq=They+were+divided+into+many+tribes+of+which+the +best+known+are,+from+north+to+south:+Dalmatae,+Ar daei,+Dardani,+Albani.+Taulantii,+Labeati,+Orestes ,+Molossi.+Chaones,+and+Thesproti.&hl=en&ei=uI1GTfi7Ko6H5AbG9vko&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA), Encyclopaedia Britannica, inc (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&tbs=bks:1&q=inauthor:%22Encyclopaedia+Britannica,+inc%22&ei=uI1GTfi7Ko6H5AbG9vko&ved=0CCcQ9Ag) – 1987, p.212: “They were divided into many tribes of which the best known are, from north to south: Dalmatae, Ardaei, Dardani, Albani, Taulantii, Labeati, Orestes, Molossi, Chaones, and Thesproti. At one stage of their incursions the Illyrians crossed…”
(3) Aegean Greece in the fourth century BC (http://books.google.com/books?id=kR0MAQAAMAAJ&q=The+Chaones+were+Illyrians+who+bordered+Epeiros+ on+the+north&dq=The+Chaones+were+Illyrians+who+bordered+Epeiros +on+the+north&hl=en&ei=fohGTYD_FM6_4gaW9cEf&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA), John Buckler (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sa=N&tbs=bks:1&q=inauthor:%22John+Buckler%22&ei=fohGTYD_FM6_4gaW9cEf&ved=0CCkQ9Ag), 2003, p.256.
(4) Researches into the physical history of mankind: Volume 2, James Cowles Prichard, 1826, p. 54: “…the Chaones in Epirus, are, by some authors, termed Thracians, while by others they are set down as Pelasgi“.
(5) Appian’s History of Rome: The Illyrian Wars §§1-5: “Illyrius had six sons, Encheleus, Autarieus, Dardanus, Maedus, Taulas, and Perrhaebus, also daughters, Partho, Daortho, Dassaro, and others, from whom sprang the Taulantii, the Perrhaebi, the Enchelees, the Autarienses, the Dardani, the Partheni, the Dassaretii, and the Darsii. Autarieus had a son Pannonius, or Paeon, and the latter had sons, Scordiscus and Triballus, from whom nations bearing similar names were derived”.
(6) A geographical and historical description of ancient Greece, Volume 1, John Anthony Cramer,1828, p. 106 (http://books.google.com/books?id=PcAoAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA106&dq=he+Suliones,+another+Chaonian+tribe,+named+by+t he+poet+Rhianus,+who+is+quoted+by+Steph.&hl=en&ei=Gx1lTef0Ls_M4AbgteDZBg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCYQ6AEwAA)

Sourece: http://www.albpelasgian.com/uncategorized/who-were-the-chaones.html

Elias2
12-03-11, 21:28
Who were the Chaones? (http://www.albpelasgian.com/uncategorized/who-were-the-chaones.html)


(http://www.albpelasgian.com/uncategorized/who-were-the-chaones.html#respond)Who were the Chaones?
It’s really becoming boring to read articles in Wikipedia that are poisoned and twisted by the nationalist Greek propaganda. This does not surprise us much because it is a known fact that Greece sponsors these kinds of campaigns to promote the ‘Hellenic’ past of Macedonia and Epirus, both non-Greek regions that were conquered by Greece in 1913.

Which is funny because Wiki has hired historians now to edit their pages. You start to sound like the Skopians who think that the whole academic world has some hiden agenda that is pro-greece. Now you act this way.

Epirus was and is still greek. Northern Epirus has been albaniszed, though there are still greeks there who are not treated very well!

Macedonia was and is greek. Skopians can cry me a river their communist propaganda machine didn't work.

Dian
13-03-11, 02:42
Northern Epirus has been albaniszed, though there are still greeks .......

I'm a little bit :confused2: how they has been converted in Albanians?!!:rolleyes2:
Now can you explain me what does this chart mean:

http://www.freeinquiry.gr/upload/files/06.10/arvphotos/arv494.jpg
Source:http://www.freeinquiry.gr/webfiles/pro.php?id=1631

Around 1888, German geographer, Alfred Philippson calculated all the Albanians in Greece at that time to 224,000.
Ethnographische Karte des Peloponnes (ethnographic map of the Peloponnese)
by Dr. Alfred Philippson, Petermanns Mitteilungen, 1890.http://makedonika.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/pelopones_ethnic.jpg

The first attempt to count the population through local sources, attempted by Kapodistrias in 1828, showed that the population of the country at the time was 753,400 people. (Peter Kiochou, lecturer A.V.S.P. "The evolution of the Greek population and the prediction that by 2000, University of Piraeus)

According to the first official census (1856 and 1861), the total population of Greece, some decades later, was about one million (1,062,627 in 1856 and 1,096,810 in 1861)

That the Albanians in the early 19 th century were about 1 / 4 the total population of Greece . (or the rest of the population was of course pure Greeks, but most Vlachs, Slavs, Turks, North African, etc., which will be presented shortly the " Free Research ".)
Albanians because they had no alphabet, could not express in writing their thoughts. The first written monument of the Albanian is «Meshari», which means "functional." The author was a Gjon Buzuku and printed in Roman characters in 1555. Includes cuts gospels, prophecies, quotes, etc. sacred sequences. The Holy Synod to meet the needs of the populous Albanian element in Greece, the New Testament translated into Albanian and published in Corfu in 1827. (Supervision Gregory, Archbishop of Evia and chairman of the Holy Synod.)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/43667591/Spata-Tatoi-Loutsa-Arvanites
Remember that during the ottoman occupation in the Balkans only the Albanian language was outlawed the teaching and learning!!! -Why?!!
These documents are very interesting even for the genetic studies!
I think that the "Megali Idea" has nothing to do with the history and the truth!


1. "The [Greek] claim to southern Albania rests entirely on the assumption that the majority of the population is Greek. The Greeks are stated to number 120,000 and Albanians 80,000. But who are the ´Greeks´? At least five sixths of them, if not more are Christian Albanians of the Orthodox faith, Albanians in sentiment and language, who because they acknowledge the Patriarch of Constantinople are declared to be Greek in point of ´national consciousness´."
("The Nineteenth Century and After XIX-XX a Monthly Review", founded by James Knowles, Vol. LXXXVI, July-December 1919, page 645.)

Elias2
13-03-11, 09:07
Albanized beacuse like the serbs after the byzantine empire started its slow and steady decent after the 4th crusade the populations started to migrate southward;

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f1/13001350ALBANIANMIGRATIONS.png

Of course the Greeks here didn't simply dissapear they were assimulated into the invading peoples. Its good that they rediscovered their roots again when greece came back. Its also quite a coincidence that the gheg and tosk albanians dialiects sepearation line is also quite similar to the lines we see above!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Dialects_of_the_Albanian_Language.png

Maybe its time we start to look at what southen "albanians" really are! I remember reading here that southern albanians genetics are different from northern albanians because of the additional J haplogroup, something typically associated with greek peoples!

Zajaz
13-03-11, 11:20
Which is funny because Wiki has hired historians now to edit their pages. You start to sound like the Skopians who think that the whole academic world has some hiden agenda that is pro-greece. Now you act this way.


I guess there is a huge misconception by your side because the article I brought up here is not mine. Of course I agree wholeheartedly with it, but I'm not the author. I've just posed here.

By the way, article seems to be back up with relevant quotes and references, so what's the problem, Elias?

Elias2
13-03-11, 17:05
The problem I have is when people seem to think the academic world ha some secret agenda that is pro-greece.

If Epirus and Illyria were the same the Romans wouldn't have made a "epirus nova" (New epirus) after that area was hellenised, which then pushes the boundary of Illyria up north, which shows that what people thought of what was an epirots and an Illyrian were different. You can nitpcik on cetain things but there is a clear definition divide even to the romans. "Albanian" wouldn't make a cultural mark untill the 14th century with the migrations south.

You should read about the roman-Illyrian wars in 230 BC, look at where the roman troops went, the position of the greek vs Illlyrian towns. You focus too much on just one type of information, the written and inherantly biased based on the writters viewpoints. Start taking a look at other sources, archeaological, war patterns, ect.

I don't mean to say that Illyrian towns were not In epirus, most certainly they were just like how there are Greek cities in Illyria proper. And don't be so surprised if they share cultural elements with each other, people are not static things, we move and adopt traits from who we come into contact with.

Trying to disassociate Epirus with the hellenic world you will have to go to big lengths that doesn't nessacaraly fit what with the evidence says, but you are welcome to try. I will still believe what academia says more than what people choose and not choose to say on the internet, especially when it comes from a skopian about macedonia (off topic).

iapetoc
14-03-11, 06:32
well seems that some people do not want see other side of the coin

a good point about modern albania

1 Arbanites YDNA
2 Arberesh Ydna

1 is more E-V13 dominant
2 is more I2 dominant

House of Anju were Cumans where Cumans can be found in Balkans?

it is simple
I llyrians are the MAjority of Albanians today but an Inavasion from 1200 and after from Romania - Dacia had happened,
in fact that invasion was silent and mainly has to do with Uniate and the return of Maniakes Army to Catholicism from Orthodox defenders in South Italy against Normands,
The same problem had Kastrioti in His Time
Gennetic proves that altough Arvanites and Arberesh have simmilar language,
Arvanites comes from area north of Berat (Beyrut) to lake skodra,
Albanians comes from Transylvania region
That Big head and short people is mainly in E-V13 areas that starts from Lerna area Peloponese and continues mountain areas to Dardania,

how yes no 2
17-03-11, 03:00
look at map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png



north most Illyrians are Ardiaei / Vardiaei in Montenegro...

their name is clearly derived from Thracian word Bardários or from PIE *(s)wordo meaning Black (same as origin of name of river Vardar / Axios in Greek)

black color was designation of north in many various people (iranian, Chinese, Slavic, various steppe people...)..... e.g. Black sea has meaning north sea, while Red sea = south sea...

Ardiaei / Vardiaei tribal name is = northerners


similarly Albanoi in Epirus Nova are simply = westerners, as white color is designation for west...

Ardiaei / Vardiaei disappeared in wars with Autoriatae....
according to Strabo Scordisci /Serdi were mixed with Illyrians and their ally

now, look at map again... north of Ardiaei / Vardiaei are Autoriatae, northeast are Serdi/Scordisci....

Autoriatae and Scordisci/Serdi are easily Croat and Serb tribal names... thus, higher E-V13 in Montenegro (30%) than in Serbia (20%) and Croatia (5%) because north most Illyrians Ardiaei / Vardiaei (northerners) lived in Montenegro, but were according to Strabo also living mixed with Scordisci (proto-Serbs) and were in war with Autoriatae (proto-Croats)

real Illyrians were E-V13

however, few Illyrian words whose meaning is preserved are fairly good match to Slavic and are alien to Albanian because they were probably related not to Illyrians proper but to Roman province of Illyricum...

Slavic people are of Veneti origin (clear from history data e.g. Jordanes), thus they were originally living north of Illyrians that is in Roman province of Illyricum, but not in real Illyricum which is Albania + part of Montenegro... early Slavic people (who are classified as being of Veneti race) are clearly I2a2 as I have explained in http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341

Dian
17-03-11, 23:19
look at map
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

Let's do some corrections according Stephen of Byzantium, also known as Stephanus Byzantinus (Greek: Στέφανος Βυζάντιος; fl. 6th century AD) was the author of an important geographical dictionary entitled Ethnica (Εθνικά).
http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/3635/athamanet.png
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6001/hvx7rs1.png
http://img6.imagebanana.com/img/fw2ntqza/Apollonia.png
http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/9895/aiginion.png
http://img96.imageshack.us/img96/8568/byllinoi.png
http://img40.imageshack.us/img40/7927/byllis.png

http://img692.imageshack.us/img692/2421/durres.pngAppian, The Civil Wars
book 2, chapter 6
The consuls crossed safely to Dyrrachium,
which some persons, by reason of the following error, consider the same as Epidamnus.
A barbarian king of the region, Epidamnus by name, built a city on the sea-coast and named it after himself. Dyrrachus,
the son of his daughter and of Neptune (as is supposed), added a dockyard to it which he named Dyrrachium. When the brothers of this Dyrrachus made war against him, Hercules, who was returning from Erythea, formed an alliance with him for a part of his territory; wherefore the Dyrrachians claim Hercules as their founder because he had a share of their land, not that they repudiate Dyrrachus, but because they pride themselves on Hercules even more as a god. In the battle which took place it is said that Hercules killed Ionius, the son of Dyrrachus, by mistake, and that after performing the funeral rites he threw the body into the sea in order that it might bear his name.
At a later period the Briges, returning from Phrygia, took possession of the city and the surrounding country. They were supplanted by the Taulantii, an Illyrian tribe, who were displaced in their turn by the Liburnians, another Illyrian tribe, who were in the habit of making piratical expeditions against their neighbors, with very swift ships. Hence the Romans call swift ships liburnic?, because these were the first ones they came in conflict with.
The people who had been expelled from Dyrrachium by the Liburnians procured the aid of the Corcyreans, who then ruled the sea, and drove out the Liburnians.
The Corcyreans mingled their own colonists with them and thus it came to be considered a Greek port; but the Corcyreans changed its name, because they considered it unpropitious, and called it Epidamnus from the town just above it, and
Thucydides gives it that name also. Nevertheless, the former name prevailed finally and it is now called Dyrrachium.

http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/4088/jond.png
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/3556/lissos.png
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/7492/lychnidos.png
http://img14.imageshack.us/img14/783/nikeao.png
http://img156.imageshack.us/img156/9833/olimpiaf.png
Reference: http://books.google.it/ebooks/reader?id=lRVAAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&output=reader
>Now, seeing the abuse with the denomination "greek" by wikinazi-onalist let you show something: http://i65.servimg.com/u/f65/13/95/49/70/untitl18.jpg

Dian
18-03-11, 00:02
their name is clearly derived from Thracian word Bardários or from PIE *(s)wordo meaning Black ?!!!!

Today in albanian language Bardh= white!!! Like Bardylis, the illiric king!
And, ArDIan, in albanian language ecc means, day, knowledge!!! And, in Chinese "Dian" http://img153.imageshack.us/img153/3065/dian.png
Any idea?!!:cool-v:

Ardiaei / Vardiaei disappeared in wars with Autoriatae....
And who fought against the romans?!

however, few Illyrian words whose meaning is preserved are fairly good match to Slavic and are alien to Albanian because they were probably related not to Illyrians proper but to Roman province of Illyricum...
A very good book to study the history about that area is Illiricum Sacrum.
http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/6941/illiricum.png
http://books.google.ca/ebooks/reader?id=teSutvmzl2UC&printsec=frontcover&output=reader

how yes no 2
18-03-11, 01:43
Today in albanian language Bardh= white!!! Like Bardylis, the illiric king!
looking at the map - they are also on west...

Dian
18-03-11, 01:54
According to the official propaganda:


a)The Albanians were never mentioned in Byzantine, (not even of the works by Constantine VII Porphyrogenitus), Arab, Armenian or any other texts before the 12th cent.

But,according Stephen of Byzantium, also known as Stephanus Byzantinus(Greek: Στέφανος Βυζάντιος; fl. 6th century AD) in its geographical dictionary entitled Ethnica (Εθνικά), we have:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7134/arpnia.png
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5836/enkeleas.png
Well ARPNIA !!!
http://i33.tinypic.com/2dkloqs.jpg
And so on....

Dian
18-03-11, 02:15
but veri = north
Vardiaei
"Veri=north" is related with today alb. "Bora=snow", like "Boreas=north, in ancient greek". The cold wind which brings the snow comes from the north.
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/4789/north.png
http://img834.imageshack.us/img834/8641/verin.png
:smile:

julia90
18-03-11, 20:33
I have a question:

Do Albanians (Illyrians) consider themselves a mediterranean pred. population, or do you consider yourselves maybe as slavic or other ethnic groups?

Many albanians i see there blend easily in the italian population, they have looks very similar to us.
then there are some people who couldn't be anything but albanians.

ex Anna Hoxha
the people who show her features have an east med look (that is still common in italy) but they have high zogomatic distance (which you don't find in other parto of balkans, greece, italy etc..)
http://www.sportcinema.it/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/anna_oxa_4.bmp

Instead a phenotype like Eliza Dushku is what you find common also in italy (so she could blend well here)
http://www.everyeye.it/public/immagini/01122010/elizadushku.jpg

Kledi Kadiu has an intermediate phenotype between eliza and anna (he looks less ethnic than anna hoxa, but at the same times he has a look you don't find in italy, and probably you would find it common only in albania)
http://sicilyweb.com/foto/192/192-04-32-17-1389.jpg


also do the linguistic divide gheg-tosk indicate a divide between more mediterranean (greek look) and slavic?

Elias2
18-03-11, 23:29
Anna Hoxha totaly got a nose job lol

Neander
18-03-11, 23:57
Do Albanians (Illyrians) consider themselves a mediterranean pred. population, or do you consider yourselves maybe as slavic or other ethnic groups?Albanians consider themselves just albanians. Some similarities with Slavs are because of the Slavs when came in Balkans took the native albanian culture, and mixed with some dinaric/albanian elements.

In whole terms Albanians are dinarics, and this expression is told by word "highlander" in albanian "malësor". This is albanian stereotype, maybe because of invasions in the fertile fields. Also we find in mountains more illyrian elements than in fields or cities/towns, because of foreign influences of occupators/empires.

They have not big diference in Race with italians, since italians are dinaric/noric/alpine (brachycephalic) in great percentage, there were a lot of albanian migrations in Italy, specially during ottoman occupation, but even the racial substrate I think is the same, majority dinaric with some mediterranean/nordic nuances.

Albanians and Slavs have a permanent enemity. It started in the 7-th century when Slavs came in balkans, and continue still today. Even albanian epic is based in the wars among Slavs and Albanians. But in fact this is more concentrated as enemity against Serbs.


also do the linguistic divide gheg-tosk indicate a divide between more mediterranean (greek look) and slavic? No. This can be seen by our eyes, Albanians in majority are dinaric. Alpine and mediterranean features in dinaric persons can be seen in the North as well as in the South. Blue eyes are comon in North as well as in the South. There is no racial distinction between Ghegs and Tosks.

julia90
19-03-11, 00:40
so, do you think albanian population derive mainly from neolitic-near eastern ancient migrations?
like in italy, greece, and in some part of the balkans.

aren't those of southern albania descendent from ancient greek tribes?
would the albanian population be more similar to the greek one and possibly italian one instead of that from bosnia or serbia?

Elias2
19-03-11, 00:55
Julia there are still alot of greeks in southern albania. The actual numbers arn't clear due to distorted data. Check out this article of balkaninsight.com about albania and the upcomming albanian census;

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/albania-controversial-census-postponed-amid-row

The Albanian government is worried if they add an ethnicity label some albanians would recognise themselves as greeks.

julia90
19-03-11, 01:00
Julia there are still alot of greeks in southern albania. The actual numbers arn't clear due to distorted data. Check out this article of balkaninsight.com about albania and the upcomming albanian census;

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/albania-controversial-census-postponed-amid-row

The Albanian government is worried if they add an ethnicity label some albanians would recognise themselves as greeks.

that's interesting, i think southern albanians should admit that they descend from ancient preistoric greek population (look at albania tribes map), for example here there is the aknowledgement that southern italy was once magna graecia, but it doesn't stop southern italian to be italians.
because greeks were one of the many people that inhabitated italy in the past, like messapian (illyrians), italics tribes, ligurians, etruscans, celts.

julia90
19-03-11, 01:11
what are the pheatures (in look) that differenciate albanians from Serbians, Greeks, Bosnians, Macedonians etc..?

could have greek tribes constituted the ancient substratum (of population ) in ancient albanians before the arrivals of other tribes?

Neander
19-03-11, 01:56
what are the pheatures (in look) that differenciate albanians from Serbians, Greeks, Bosnians, Macedonians etc..?These features cannot be expressed with words, but you can see with ur eyes. But in the whole Serbs and Slavo-Macedones are darker than Albanians.


could have greek tribes constituted the ancient substratum (of population ) in ancient albanians before the arrivals of other tribes? It is the contrary. Greeks in the begining didnt exist. The greek nation was created on the Pelasgian substratum, and Pelasgians have all words realted to today albanian language.

The greek nation for the first time was created in the 8 century. It is the inevtion of the:

1. Alphabet
2. Great Temples
3. Delphi
4. Greek language
5. Asiatic influence
6. Greek nation + myth of greek nation

The first greek nation lived only in three habitats:

4655

As we can see there was no so-called "greek epirus" nor "greek macedonia"

Epirus and Macedonia were part of Pelasgian-Illyrian-Thracian substratum.

I don know where Greeks come from but they are comers in the Balkan.

As for Magna Graecia, it was a colony after 8-th century, but Illyrians lived in Italy before Greeks.

Neander
19-03-11, 01:58
that's interesting, i think southern albanians should admit that they descend from ancient preistoric greek population (look at albania tribes map), for example here there is the aknowledgement that southern italy was once magna graecia, but it doesn't stop southern italian to be italians.Wrong parallelle. Epirus is definitely illyrian nation in ancient times. They had illyrian names, illyrian names of tribes, and were not greeks. Greek language was just a lingua franca, as it was in all mediterranean.

julia90
19-03-11, 02:04
that's interesting, greek languages and people expanded recently in the balkans.
indeed corfu (part of epirus) is considered more albanian than greek.

For example Pirro, the King of Epirus invaded italy from here:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/46/Epirus_antiquus_tabula.jpg
and it says it was inabiated by illyrians (also it correspond to almost all modern albania)

julia90
19-03-11, 02:13
in italy the illyrians population inhabitated Apulia, they were called iapygians (and were divided in Dauni, Messapi and Peucetii tribes).

do you think that the messapian inscription i posted days before here, could have affinity with modern albanian?

julia90
19-03-11, 02:30
there are even some strange connections between sardinia and ancient illyria (albania),
in the ancient vocabulary of pre-roman sardianian populations:

sardo:eni ‘albero del tasso’= albanese enjë ‘albero del tasso’
sardo:alase ‘agrifoglio, pungitopo, gramigna’ (in sardo: laruspinosu ’alloro spinoso’) =albanese halë ‘spina’ halëz ‘spina’
sardo: lothiu ‘fangoso’, topp: Lotzorai, Lothorgo, Loceri, Lotzeri = albanese lloç ‘fanghiglia’
sardo: dròb(b)alu ‘intestino dei suini’ = albanese drobolì ‘intestino’
sardo: urtzula ‘clematide’, top. Urtzulei = albanese hurdh ‘edera’

could it be an I haplogroup connection???

Elias2
19-03-11, 02:35
Wrong parallelle. Epirus is definitely illyrian nation in ancient times. They had illyrian names, illyrian names of tribes, and were not greeks. Greek language was just a lingua franca, as it was in all mediterranean.

Greek was lingua franca after alexander not before. Epirus was greek, deal with it, albainians wouldn't venture down south untill the middle ages. Ancient greeks were a melting pot of differnt peoples.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png

julia90
19-03-11, 02:37
it's curious there is a greek city called Thyrreion in that map, like Thyrrenian, etruscans

Elias2
19-03-11, 02:43
Example of and ancient epirus tribe: the Chaonians

The Chaonians (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek): Χάονες, Chaones), were an ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians#cite_note-0) tribe that inhabited the region of Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29) in the north-west of modern Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) and southern Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania). On their southern frontier lay another Epirote kingdom, that of the Molossians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians), to their southwest stood the kingdom of the Thesprotians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesprotians), and to their north lived the Illyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian) tribes. According to Virgil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virgil), Chaon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaon) was the eponymous (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eponymous) ancestor of the Chaonians.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians#cite_note-Virgil._Aeneid.2C_3.295-1) By the 5th century BC, they had conquered and combined to a large degree with the neighboring Thesprotians and Molossians. The Chaonians were part of the Epirote League (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirote_League) until 170 BC when their territory was annexed by the Roman Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic).

According to Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo), the Chaonians (along with the Molossians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians)) were the most famous among the fourteen tribes of Epirus, because they once ruled over the whole of Epirus.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians#cite_note-Book_VII.2C_Chapter_7.5-2) The Illyrians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrians) occupied the coastal and hinterland regions further north; however, the Periplus of Pseudo-Scylax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Periplus_of_Pseudo-Scylax)[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians#cite_note-3) makes a clear distinction between the Chaonians and the Illyrian tribes. The Illyrians and Chaonians appear to have had — at least at times — a confrontational relationship; Polybius recounts a devastating raid mounted in 230 BC by the Illyrians against Phoenice (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenice), the chief city of the Chaonians. The incident had major political ramifications. Many Italian traders who were in the town at the time of the sacking were killed or enslaved by the Illyrians, prompting the Roman Republic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Republic) to launch the first of the two Illyrian Wars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_Wars) the following year.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians#cite_note-4)\

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians

Elias2
19-03-11, 02:45
I don't know what's with albanians and Skopians claiming ancient greek tribes but it has to stop, if I were to guess they both have an expansionist mindset. This is ironic because of what might happen in FYROM soon ;)

julia90
19-03-11, 02:47
well could be eprirus in the end a region inhabitated both by greek tribes and illyrians tribes? like in the sense of modern histria inhabitated by a caos of different ethnies?

Elias2
19-03-11, 02:49
well could be eprirus in the end a region inhabitated both by greek tribes and illyrians tribes? like in the sense of modern histria inhabitated by a caos of different ethnies?

Yes it seems like this is the most logical answer, but people like to think in absolutes which is probably not the right way of going about it. There were greek towns in Illyria proper like Apollonia and epidamus which is not surprising greeks were very big colonisers in those days.

julia90
19-03-11, 02:50
according to the only genetical map that analized both greeks and albanians, greeks and albanians do cluster quite toghether genetically (in some case they are the same population) only albanians clusters a bit more in the north with other balkanians, but the bulk of the clusters is greco-albanian
http://www.radiotradizione.it/tesoretto/mappagenetica.jpeg

Elias2
19-03-11, 02:56
Take a look at the nice graph maciamo put together;

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml

Greece and albanians don't differ that much genetically. Acutally, depending on where you come from in greece you are very quite different from each other, similar to how depending on which part of Italy you come from you have differnt genetics. Northern Greeks are similar with balkanic people, southern greeks with near eastern, western greeks with albanian.

On a side note, I like how Skopians cluster with bulgarians so closely.

julia90
19-03-11, 03:01
indeed, it indicates a common bulk of origin (it could be very ancient and not recorded in history).
even if genetic research on multiple markers like the map i posted are more scentifically accurate (haplogroups are just one single gene, maps analizes more genes)
Did greeks came only from the balkans, only from western asia, or from both (multiple origin balkans with west asia immigrations)?

Elias2
19-03-11, 03:14
Ancient Greeks and Greece was a melting pot of different people, they came from everywhere, we're talking from north, east, south, and west. Being greek then is the same as it is now, it's an ethos.

Maciamo did I nice write-up of the differnt ancient peoples here;

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=25106&highlight=greek

"Greco-Romans

The Ancient Greeks were an admixture of European and Near-Eastern people. The paternal side shows a strong Near-Eastern component, making modern Greek Y-DNA closer to Turkish, Syrian, Lebanese and even Iraqi one than to that of Western or Northern Europe. According to Y-DNA frequencies observed in Europe, Southern Italy and the Balkans were heavily settled by the Ancient Greeks, or their Neolithic ancestors that did not yet call themselves "Greeks".

We are still unsure about the original Y-DNA types of the Romans, but due to the proximity of the Greek colonies, and the fact that Etruscans were also of Near Eastern origins, it is likely that the Romans were an admixture of Near-Eastern J2, G2 and E3b with the native Italo-Celtic R1b. As the Romans played a major role in spreading Near-Eastern haplogroups in and north of the Alps, I will refer to the J2-G2-E3b admixture as Greco-Roman, and the Italic R1b just as "Celtic". Haplogroup G2 correlates strongly with the spread of J2 with a ratio of 1 G2 for 3 J2 in average, suggesting that these haplogroups spread together from Anatolia, while the European E3b had a different origin (probably in the Balkans)."

iapetoc
19-03-11, 04:58
These features cannot be expressed with words, but you can see with ur eyes. But in the whole Serbs and Slavo-Macedones are darker than Albanians.

It is the contrary. Greeks in the begining didnt exist. The greek nation was created on the Pelasgian substratum, and Pelasgians have all words realted to today albanian language.

The greek nation for the first time was created in the 8 century. It is the inevtion of the:

1. Alphabet
2. Great Temples
3. Delphi
4. Greek language
5. Asiatic influence
6. Greek nation + myth of greek nation

The first greek nation lived only in three habitats:

4655

As we can see there was no so-called "greek epirus" nor "greek macedonia"

Epirus and Macedonia were part of Pelasgian-Illyrian-Thracian substratum.

I don know where Greeks come from but they are comers in the Balkan.

As for Magna Graecia, it was a colony after 8-th century, but Illyrians lived in Italy before Greeks.

Some people do not understand that Illyrians came after Greeks

There is no Illyrian,

all Data prove that J2 and E-V13 moved from Greece to peloponese

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html)

If you can read English Neander then you find truth, and stop Bullshit

it Seems that ancients Illyrians were Greek Brother from the Pelasgic Brance of Greeks
Modern Albanians Came from Transylvania area Alba Lullia, a place were Cumans lived
as house of Anju is connected with Cumans and Hunjadi also


simply in Greece lived Thracians, and Pelasgic came,
Pelasgic travell north west to area of Celts
Thracian + Pelasgic made Greek Culture
Celtic +pelasgic made ancient Illyrian Culture


later Maniakes general of Byzantines who was leader of south western troops
big armies in Byzantines were called Arberoi
same name we Found in Ceasaria of Pontus and Cappadokia as Arbaru
pontic Greeks and cappadokians are called Auts
Arberians are called Arnauts
MAniakes army base in City of Arbanon but mainly resposible for area sicily to taranto
Maniakes revolt to Polis and his army left Headlless
Progon try to Connect Maniakes Strong Army and create a state
But mainly that Army worked as Merceneries to Serbs Normands etc

Arbanites accept invitation and moved to Attica at 1200 about
Arbanites are mainly Locals connected with ancient Illyrians
Arberesh also

BUT

The Arbereshe Y-chromosome variation was investigated by sampling individuals from different villages of the Pollino area (Calabria) who bear one of the founding surnames of the population. The genotyping was performed using 12 microsatellites (STRs) and 31 unique event polymorphisms (UEPs), defining, respectively, haplotypes and haplogroups. The Italian and Balkan genetic backgrounds were explored using the large amount of data provided by recent Y-chromosome studies in the two peninsulas and by literature data on STRs from forensic research

The presence of F*(xG,I,J,K) in Albanians is interesting as this occurs in Romania and Bosnia Herzegovina (all groups), and in South Apulia, It could potentially be haplogroup H and may reflect a Gypsy element that was not present when the Arbereshe moved to Italy from the Balkans.

The scarcity of J2 chromosomes in the Arbereshe sample (1/40) is very difficult to explain, given that they are very common in both the Italian peninsula and the southern Balkans. Literature data on J2 indicate that most of the haplotypes included in the Balkan (B) cluster of the network (Figure 3) have an STR configuration consistent with the J2-M12 sub-clade (Di Giacomo et al. 2004; Semino et al. 2004; Cruciani et al. 2007). In contrast, most of the haplotypes in the other clusters agree with the STR configuration given for the J2-M67 clade, with its sub-clade J2-M92 (Di Giacomo et al. 2004). It is unconvincing to attribute the rarity of J2 in the Arbereshe to random sampling or to the effect of genetic drift. Furthermore, the Arbereshe sample analysed by Semino et al. (2004) also completely lacks the typically Balkan J2-M12 chromosomes. If we interpret our Arbereshe sample as representative of the founding Albanian population, we may hypothesize that the J2 haplogroup was considerably less diffuse in the southern Balkans five centuries ago than today.


What we can conclude from this study is that the founding Albanian population was J2- and I2a- lite compared to modern Albanians. The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.

it is genetically proved that Modern Albanians etc are Transylvanian and not Illyrian
(a friend here knows the Families name that came from Romania)


The source of J2 is less clear, and could be either the Albanization of Greeks (the only Balkan population with a sizeable J2 frequency) or remnants of Muslim Anatolians from Ottoman times. However, modern Albanians belong mainly to clade J2b, while Anatolians belong to J2a. Thus, I tend to dismiss the Anatolian connection.


As in Fact Tosk are Albanized Greeks and that is Nobody can Deny it
Proven by gennetic

The low frequency of R1*x(R1a1) in the Arbereshe, together with the high E1b1b1a frequency are quite convincing of the Balkan origins of this population.



Now about E-V13

Nea Nikomedeia 8
149
1725 BC 2470 BC Sesklo/Dimini 20
71
225 AD 130 BC Lerna Franchthi 20
120
1000 BC 1600 BC Crete 13
68
300 AD 40 BC Haplozone 103
134
1350 BC 2020 BC Aromuns (12) 32
71
225 AD 130 BC Aromuns (8) 32
73
175 AD 190 BC Slavomacedonians (12) 13
51
725 AD 470 AD Slavomacedonians (8) 13
59
525 AD 230 AD Albanians (12) 9
70
250 AD 100 BC Albanians (8) 9
59
525 AD 230 AD
Albanians also coalesce to Roman/Late Antique times, consistent with the idea that their high frequency of haplogroup E-V13 (which reaches very high numbers in e.g. Kosovars) is not associated with high diversity. Founder effects in that time frame are the reason for the high frequency of E-V13 in them.

Finally, Slavomacedonians from the former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia coalesce well into AD times, at around the time of the first Slavic arrivals in the Balkans. This suggests that E-V13 in them is the result of local founders at around that time who adopted the Slavic language. However, Pericic et al. (2005) (see below) report high (but unspecified) diversity of E-M78α in "Macedonia", so it is possible that a larger number of earlier inhabitants were absorbed.

The age and distribution of E-V13 chromosomes suggest that expansions of the Greek world in the Bronze and later ages were the major causes of its diffusion.

Who was the E-V13 patriarch in Greece? He was perhaps one of the legendary figures of Greek mythology some of whom are said to have come from abroad. For whatever reason, his progeny grew, and were around to participate in the expansion of the Mycenaean world and the subsequent Greek colonization.

Danaus

An additional piece of evidence is Y-chromosome distribution in Calabria, a Southern Italian region with well-known Greek connections. According to Semino et al. (2004) [Am. J. Hum. Genet. 74:1023–1034, 2004], the Calabrian sample has an E-M78 frequency of 16.3%, whereas "Calabria 2" representing the "Albanian community of the Cosenza province" has only 5.9%. This is consistent with the idea that E-V13 in modern Albanians is to a great degree due to Greek founders (Epirotes or ancient colonists).


Y-chromosomes of Albanian populations (Ferri et al. 2010) (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html)

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/S6ZYexugWoI/AAAAAAAACVA/1I9HXeBDFQY/s320/albanians.png (http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/S6ZYexugWoI/AAAAAAAACVA/1I9HXeBDFQY/s1600-h/albanians.png)This is a very important study as it shows (for the first time) some detail on Albanian populations. From a first reading of the evidence, we can say that:


the Ghegs resemble Kosovar Albanians in having a higher frequency of E1b1b1.
Tosks on the other hand have a higher frequency of I.
The high J2 frequency resembles Greeks, with the expected 10 to 1 or so ratio between J2 and J1, and is dissimilar from northwestern Balkan populations. Past studies have shown however, that J2b is dominant in Albanian, rather than J2a which is dominant in most Greek populations tested so far (although J2b is also represented).
Similar frequencies to Greeks are also found in R1.
There is also a relative paucity of G compared to Greeks, and limited introgression of Gypsy chromosomes (H1) in the main Albanian groups (Gheg and Tosk).


Y chromosome variation at 12 STR (the Powerplex® Y system core set) and 18 binary markers was investigated in two major (the Ghegs and the Tosks) and two minor (the Gabels and the Jevgs) populations from Albania (Southern Balkans). The large proportion of haplotypes shared within and between groups makes the Powerplex 12-locus set inadequate to ensure a suitable power of discrimination for the forensic practice. At least 85% of Y lineages in the Jevgs, the cultural minority claiming an Egyptian descent, turned out to be of either Roma or Balkan ancestry. They also showed unequivocal signs of a common genetic history with the Gabels, the other Albanian minority practising social and cultural Roma traditions.

About Gorani people Tombes :
A specific DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DNA) mutation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutation) which emerged about 2,000 years ago on a rare haplotype (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplotype) is characteristic Its frequency increased as a consequence of high genetic drift (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genetic_drift) within this population. This indicates that are an isolated population with limited contacts with their neighbours. The DNA tree line of Pomaks suggests the hypothesis that Pomaks are descendants of ancient Thracian tribes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_tribes)


Arbano People as merceneries allied with Tarantines, Normans, Anju, Romanians-Cumans Hunjadi, and about 1200-1400 a population moved from Alba Lullia
to cover the space of Arbanites who moved to Athens
That is why Anna komnani and Attaleiates names name as Arbanites until 1280 and later as albanites

Illyria is a Greek-Pelasgic word after Illyrus Father of Celtus means Sun light or Sun-Ra or Sunny sky
Illyros son of Cadmus invaded Illyria who was habited by celts
That is why Illyrian language has pelasgic words and celtic

Besides it is other area Illyria and ather Illyricum

They were the Taulantii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulantii), the Pleraei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleraei), the Endirudini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endirudini), Sasaei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaei), Grabaei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabaei) and the Labeatae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeatae). These later joined to form the Docleatae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docleatae).

Illyrii Proprie Dicti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Illyrii_Proprie_ Dicti) Wilkes 1995 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria#CITEREFWilkes1995),

No Chaonians no Molloseans No Makedonians NO Epirotes

Chaonians Molloseans were Pelasgic pure no celto no thraco pelasgic
Makedonians were Greeks


so Neander since you are Illyrians why you change your language from Centum (messapic and ancient Illyrian and Pelasgic) To Satem ->Balto-slavic?
Why the most % of modern Albanian is Slavo-Baltic connected with Bulgarian and serbian and offcourse Roman (rome + Romania)

Neander even Genetic proves the opposite you claim
History says other,
Genetic say other
so go to your transylvanian Friend (you know who)
and stop claiming
cause the truth is other.

we all know who is behind these nonesence you claim



Epirotans were Greeks
Chaonians were Pelasgic
Makedonians were Greek


Understand that

Pelasgic +thracian create Greek culture
Pelasgic + Celtic created ancient Illyrian culture
Modern Albanians have connection with Transylvania and moved after 1200 AD
the way is known to both

Albanian is a modern nation that founded at 1040 by Maniakes revolt and has nothing to do with ancient Illyria
Albanian language is mostly connected with Slavo-Baltic and Romano-Celtic than Pelasgic and Thracian
only in dardania you find some thracian,

so stop unproved theories

E-V13 came from south to North
J2b came from south to North

both are connected with Greece and pelasgic
Accept it
The I Ydna in albania is connected with celtic and Transylvania Alba Lullia

there is no Illyrian southern than scumbi river, and lake Lychnitis
Celtic were above Labeatae of Illyria Dicti proprie

and a part of Albanians comes from Carpathean chordes

iapetoc
19-03-11, 05:19
Ancient Greeks and Greece was a melting pot of different people, they came from everywhere, we're talking from north, east, south, and west. Being greek then is the same as it is now, it's an ethos.

Elias 2 I don't believe that is so much melting,
history proves other,
if you read my other post as also the post about dorians then you see
that Europe was conquered from south to north and from east to west,
not from central to south

The doric -Illyrian invasion is a myth and a false theory,
cause Dinaric I2 is not that spread in Greek colonies and Lakonia
But in East Makedonia and Agrinio (find Endymion) mother land of Thracians Agrianes
Doric people never invade Greek thrace so it is Thracian connected

in fact History proves why in north peloponese E-V13 has Bigger ratio than in Laconia (expel of achaic to north)

Dian
19-03-11, 12:07
Julia there are still alot of greeks in southern albania. The actual numbers arn't clear due to distorted data.
I gave an answer some posts before about this issue! But it seems you cannot accept the truth. However, I will bring documents showing another reality. What you do not know or do not want to know. Then , the readers will judge!


http://www.greekhelsinki.gr/english/reports/arvanites.html
Report
-
THE ARVANITES
General data on the language
Arvanites are those whose mother tongue is Arvanitika (name in Greek - Áñâáíßôåò)/ Arberichte (name in their language); most linguists use the word Albanian for that language, but the community loathes its use, and it is therefore advisable that this sensitivity be taken into consideration unless researchers and/or human and minority rights activists do not mind alienating the very community they are studying. Likewise, they call themselves Arvanites (in Greek) and Arberor (in their language); but in Northwestern Greece, in their language, they use the term Shqiptar (the same used by Albanians of Albania), a term strongly disliked by the other Arvanites, who also resent being called Albanians.
Nevertheless, Arvanitika belongs to the linguistic family of Albanian, and it has evolved from one of the two linguistic groups of Albanian, the South Albanian Tosk (the other is the North Albanian Gheg). Arvanitika has a dialectical richness: there are three different groups of dialects spoken, one in Thrace, one in Northwestern Greece (near the Albanian border), and one in Central and Southern Greece. The latter, which includes the vast majority of speakers of Arvanitika in Greece, has by itself a great dialectical variety which makes some of these dialects to be, or to be perceived by the speakers as, mutually unintelligible (Nakratzas, 1992:86; Trudgill et al., 1975:44; Tsitsipis, 1983:297; Williams, 1992:85). Along with Vlachs, Macedonians, and Roma, Arvanites in Greece argue whether they should use the Greek or the Latin alphabet to write their language, which has rarely been written (Gerou, 1994a; Kazazis, 1994).
Most Arvanites have traditionally lived in Central and Southern Greece: in most departments of the regions of Continental Greece (Sterea Ellada) and the Peloponnese (including especially most islands corresponding to these areas) and the Cyclades island of Andros. Arvanites also live near the Albanian border, in most departments of Epirus and in the Florina and Kastoria departments of Macedonia; also, in the border (with Turkey) department of Evros (in Thrace) and in the Salonica department (where they settled along with other Orthodox refugees from Eastern Thrace, in the 1920’s). Like the rest of the population, since the 1950s, Arvanites have been emigrating from their villages to the cities and especially to the capital Athens, which, incidentally, was a mainly Albanian (Arvanite) small town in the early 1800’s, before becoming the Greek state’s capital (Nakratzas, 1992:87-8). It appears that urbanization has been leading to the loss of the use of the language, which has been surviving more in the traditional villages.
There have not been any official statistics on this as well as on any other minority group in Greece since 1951 (and the statistics before then are generally considered unreliable, reflecting mostly only those with a strong ethnic consciousness). Today, the best estimate for the people who speak the language and/or have an Arvanite consciousness is that they number around 200,000. Trudgill (1983:128) gives an estimate of 140,000 for the speakers in Attica and Beotia, a figure also mentioned in Hill (1990:135). For the Arvanites in the Northwest, a figure of 30,000 is given by Ciampi (1985:87), who also puts the figure for the total group at 156,000-201,000. Some members of the community give much higher figures, around 1,600,000 (Kormoss, 1994:1; and Gerou, 1994b:2): this figure may correspond to all Greeks who have some Arvanite ancestry, but certainly not to the current speakers and those with a similar consciousness. Like all other minority languages, except Turkish, Arvanitika has no legal status in Greece and is not taught at any level of the educational system.
Moreover, there are no media in Arvanitika, though in some Attica radio stations some Arvanitika songs can be heard. Arvanites are Orthodox Christians (many belong to the Old-Calendarist ‘Genuine Orthodox’ Church); their church services are held in Greek, with some rare exceptions of Gospel reading in Arvanitika at Easter. Even Arvanite cultural activities appear to be limited. Tsitsipis has reported only occasional folklore festivals, music and poetry contests (Tsitsipis, 1983 & 1994). Since the 1980’s, there has been a creation of Arvanite cultural associations and publication of a magazine and some books on Arvanite culture (very little though published in the language). In some areas, Easter Gospel is read in Arvanitika (Gerou, 1994a). Perhaps the most significant -for the large public- venture is the release of the CD -with an attached explanatory booklet- Arvanitic Songs (FM Records, 1994).
History of the community and the language
The first Christian Albanian migrations to what is today Greek territory took place as early as the XI-XII centuries (Trudgill, 1975:5; Banfi, 1994:19), although the main ones most often mentioned in the bibliography happened in the XIV-XV centuries, when Albanians were invited to settle in depopulated areas by their Byzantine, Catalan or Florentine rulers (Tsitsipis, 1994:1; Trudgill, 1975:5; Nakratzas, 1992:20-24 & 78-90; Banfi, 1994:19). According to some authors, they were also fleeing forced Islamization by the Turks in what is today Albania (Katsanis, 1994:1). So, some have estimated that, when the Ottomans conquered the whole Greek territory in the XV century, some 45% of it was populated by Albanians (Trudgill, 1975:6). Another wave of Muslim Albanian migrations took place during the Ottoman period, mainly in the XVIII century (Trudgill, 1975:6; Banfi, 1994:19). All these Albanians are the ancestors of modern-day Arvanites in Central and Southern Greece.
Very little is known about the Albanian presence in Thrace; it was probably a spill-over of the many migrations mentioned above. Anyhow, there were many Albanians in Eastern Thrace and in the adjacent Western Thrace department of Evros. The former, as Christians, were relocated in Greece during the compulsory exchange of Christians and Muslims between modern-day Turkey and Greece in the 1920’s: many settled in the Salonica department.
As for the Arvanites of Epirus and Western Macedonia, they are considered to be part of the modern Albanian nation (Banfi, 1994:20), something which perhaps explains their self-identification as Shqiptars rather than Arberor. When frontiers were drawn up in the early XX century, some Christian and Muslim Albanians were left in Greek territory, just as some Greeks were left in Albanian territory. An important part of these Albanians, the Muslim Chams, fled Greece towards the end of World War II, as many had collaborated with the occupying forces and were, as a result, persecuted by Greek resistance.
When the modern Greek state was formed, the Albanian-speaking population and its language were called Albanian, even if those Christian Albanians were considered an integral part of the Greek nation and had played a decisive role in the War of Independence between 1821-1828 (Bartholdy, 1993; Bickford-Smith, 1993: 47; Embeirikos, 1994; Vakalopoulos, 1994:243-249). However, the policy of the new Greek state was to Hellenize all the non-Greek speaking Orthodox populations within its, then limited, territory as well as in the territories of Epirus, Macedonia, Thrace and Asia Minor still under Ottoman rule, which were though considered as part of Greek irredenta; the other Balkan countries (Serbia, Bulgaria, Romania, and later Albania) had also followed similar policies. As elsewhere in Europe, army and education were the most effective mechanisms of Hellenization, assisted by the judiciary system ready to denounce and punish all forms of behavior inconsistent with the state’s nationalist culture (Kitromilidis, 1990:38; Kollias, 1994).
It is noteworthy to point out though, that, before the definite development of modern Albanian nationalism, there were efforts in the 1870’s to include most Albanians under Ottoman rule in a Greek-Albanian kingdom (Castellan, 1991:333; Vakalopoulos, 1994: 243-249), just as others appealed to them for their inclusion in an Albanian-Vlach Macedonian state (Berard, 1987:292-333). The Albanians’ fear of an eventual assimilation by the Greeks led to the failure of the former effort.
The result of the Hellenization policy -which was to take a very oppressive turn during the Metaxas dictatorship (1936-1940)- was that Albanian Greeks, especially after the emergence of Albanian nationalism and of the Albanian state, felt that they had to ‘constantly prove their Greekness.’ Hence, their very conservative political behavior: they had traditionally been royalists and, in large numbers, adhered to the Old Calendarist Orthodox Christian Church, which -when the split in the Greek Church over the introduction of the new calendar took place in the 1920’s- was originally supported by the royalist forces. Moreover, and more important for the survival of their language, they have distanced themselves from the Albanians to the extent that most consider today offending to be called Albanians: they have preferred the term Arvanite (Arberor in their own language) for the people and Arvanitika (Arberichte) for the language, as opposed to Albanian (Shqiptar for the people and Shqip for the language) that Albanians use for themselves and their language -with the exception of the Arvanites of Northwestern Greece, as mentioned above. This attitude may also explain the efforts of some intellectuals of the Arvanite community to trace Arvanites’ and Arvanitika’s roots back to the prehistoric inhabitants of Greece, the Pelasgians and their language, so as to claim indigenous status (Williams, 1992:87; Gerou, 1994b; Thomopoulos, 1912).
Trudgill (1994) has shown that, in Greece, as minority languages are all alien (Abstand) to Greek, the use of different names for them (Arvanitika rather than Albanian, Vlach rather than Romanian, Slav rather than Macedonian) has contributed to denying their heteronomy (i.e. their dependence on the corresponding standard language) and increasing their autonomy (by assigning them the status of autonomous languages). As a result, the minority language’s vulnerability grew significantly, as well as the dissociation of the speakers’ ethnic (Arvanite, Vlach, Slavophone) identities from the corresponding national identities (Albanian, Romanian, Macedonian) which have developed in the respective modern nation-states. Today, Arvanite ethnic identity is perceived by many members of the community as distinct from that of the other Greeks who have Greek as their mother tongue but as fully compatible with Greek national identity (likewise for many Vlachs and Macedonians). A similar phenomenon has helped weaken the links between Pomaks in Greece (speaking a Bulgarian-based language) and Bulgarians, and the consequent Pomaks’ assimilation into the Turkish ethnic and, by now, national identity in Western Thrace, an assimilation here detrimental to Greece’s homogenization and anti-minority policies. In another Balkan context, such attitude helped distance the literary Macedonian language standardized by Yugoslav authorities in the late 1940s from Bulgarian to which the previously spoken dialects in Yugoslav Macedonia were heteronomous.
If Hellenization was a significant factor for the weakening of the use of Arvanitika, urbanization was another. Arvanitika had survived until recently in many homogeneous villages where most people had been using the language regularly. Those, though, who moved to the cities soon abandoned the use of the language as it was unintelligible to most other city dwellers and was even perecived as a sign of backwardness; on the other hand, the children had no way of learning the language as neither was it taught at school nor was it used regularly by family members -often grand parents- at home (Moraitis, 1994).
Current situation of the community and the language
Almost all information about the present concerns the bulk of the Arvanite community in Central and Southern Greece. The other two communities are hardly mentioned in the literature and have also been ignored in the 1987 European Bureau for Lesser Used Languages (EBLUL) visit to the Arvanite community in Greece, an oversight which led to at least one indirect protest letter by the Tychero municipality (Kazazis, 1994); nevertheless, a 1994 second visit by the EBLUL was again limited to the Central Greece Arvanite villages.
Almost all speakers of Arvanitika are today bilingual, i.e. they also speak Greek, usually fluently for the younger generations (Trudgill, 1975:53). It is widely agreed that Arvanitika today have been influenced significantly by the linguistic environment in which they have evolved, sometimes for centuries, without any contact with the Albanian communities of modern day Albania. So, it has acquired a separate (Ausbau) status from Albanian, in fact with dialectical richness; nevertheless, at least partial mutual intelligibility between Arvanite and Albanian exists (Trudgill, 1994:14). Indeed, the recent (in the early 1990’s) arrival of hundreds of thousands, mainly illegal, Albanian immigrants in Greece has led to a successful test of that mutual intelligibility, when many settled in Arvanitika villages (it is also noteworthy that in these villages we have seen the two most serious incidents of beatings of Albanian immigrants).
A comparison with standard Albanian shows that Arvanitika has suffered reduction and simplification. Reduction here means loss of: Albanian vocabulary (often replaced by Greek words duly adapted phonetically and morphologically); prepositions (sometimes replaced by Greek ones); verbal tenses; and forms. While simplification consists of loss of case forms, connecting particles and invariable verbal forms (Trudgill, 1983:115-123).
On the other hand, Arvanitika is threatened with extinction. In the early 1970’s, more than 80% of the inhabitants of Arvanite villages in the Attica & Beotia departments were found to be fluent speakers of Arvanitika, though the loss of the language was more pronounced in the villages close to Athens than elsewhere; at the same time, however, the actual use of the language was more limited (Trudgill, 1975:56-61). Moreover, there has been a rather widespread indifference among Arvanites, as well as Vlachs and Macedonian, about the fate of their mother tongues, along with self-deprecation: they have been led by the dominant unilingual Greek culture to -usually sincerely- believe that these languages are deficient, lack proper grammatical structure, have a poor vocabulary (Trudgill, 1994:14; Tsitsipis, 1994:4). So, gradually, Arvanites have switched from bilingualism to a subordination of Arvanitika to Greek; and, sometimes, young people discourage their parents from speaking the language (especially in public). It is probably a correct estimate, although no studies equivalent to that of the 1970s exist, that the language is used today by middle aged people (interchanged with Greek) and by elderly people (in most contexts) and much less by the younger generation (usually when addressing older people, in strict family context, or, sometimes, too, to make fun of non-speakers) (Tsitsipis, 1994; Trudgill, 1983:114-5). Moreover, in the Peloponnese, it seems that the users are predominantly elderly people (Williams, 1992:85-6). Experts, therefore, agree that Arvanitika in Greece is threatened with extinction more than the equivalent Arberichte language of Southern Italy, as the latter country is more tolerant and does not feel threatened by plurilingualism (Hamp, 1978; Tsitsipis, 1983).
Since the 1980s, some efforts to preserve Arvanite culture have been made. A congress was held in 1985. Four cultural associations have been created: the Arvanitikos Syndesmos Hellados (the Arvanite League of Greece) which has been publishing, since 1983, the bimonthly Besa (in Greek); the Kentro Arvanitikou Politismou (Center for Arvanite Culture); the Arvanitikos Syllogos Ano Liosion (Arvanite Association of Ano Liosia); and the Syllogos Arvaniton Corinthias (Association of Arvanites of Corinthia). Books on Arvanite culture have been published. Church reading and chanting in some Arvanite villages has been reported (Williams, 1992:87). Finally, we had the release of a CD with Arvanite music mentioned above. Overall, though, this movement is weaker than similar ones among Vlachs and Macedonians (and certainly among officially recognized Turks).
One reason for such a slow movement is the apparent hostility of the Greek state to such ‘revivals’ among Arvanites, Vlachs, and Macedonians, which is indicated by police disruption of festivals (in Macedonia), and harassment of musicians who play and sing songs in minority languages; as well as by the tolerance -by the state and particularly its judiciary- of public calls, printed in the press, to use violence against those musicians; likewise, human and minority rights activists have been the object of similar threats (Stohos, 20/7/1994 and in previous issues, where even the European Union’s Euromosaic project -to report on the status of the linguistic minorities in the EU- was attacked). Such hostile environment makes even the scholars’ work look suspicious: for example, Arvanites have reacted with incredulity and suspicion to scholars’ assertions that their language can be written (Tsitsipis, 1983:296-7; Trudgill, 1983:129; Williams, 1992:88). Moreover, the EBLUL’s first visit to the community was violently attacked by some community members (Williams, 1992:88) as well as in state-sponsored publications (Lazarou et al., 1993:191-193).
Likewise, Arvanitika has never been included in the educational curricula of the modern Greek state. On the contrary, its use has been strongly discouraged at schools (and in the army) through physical punishment, humiliation, or, in recent years, simple incitation of the Arvanitika users (Williams, 1992:86; Trudgill, 1983:130-1). Such attitudes have led many Arvanite (as well as Vlach, and Macedonian) parents to discourage their children from learning their mother tongue so as to avoid similar discrimination and suffering (Trudgill, 1983:130).
> Then, you find some greeks similar to Tosk because:
http://books.google.com/books?id=--EEAAAAQAAJ&pg=PP7&img=1&zoom=3&hl=en&sig=ACfU3U3tLmwSLLYSv8neybnqWQxVSl_Fgg&ci=0,3,999,1625&edge=0
http://i85.servimg.com/u/f85/13/95/49/70/pictur23.png

Dian
19-03-11, 12:23
1. "The [Greek] claim to southern Albania rests entirely on the assumption that the majority of the population is Greek. The Greeks are stated to number 120,000 and Albanians 80,000. But who are the ´Greeks´? At least five sixths of them, if not more are Christian Albanians of the Orthodox faith, Albanians in sentiment and language, who because they acknowledge the Patriarch of Constantinople are declared to be Greek in point of ´national consciousness´."
("The Nineteenth Century and After XIX-XX a Monthly Review", founded by James Knowles, Vol. LXXXVI, July-December 1919, page 645.)
2. "Did the Greeks constitute a race apart from the Albanians the Slavs and the Vlachs? Yes and no. High school students were told that the ´other races´, i.e. the Slavs the Albanians and the Vlachs ´having been Hellenized with the years in terms of mores and customs, are now being assimilated into the Greeks´."
("Greece in the 20th Century", Editors Theodore A. Couloumbis, Theodore Kariots, Fotini Bellou, page 24.)
3. "The Turkish village which formally clustered around the base of the Acropolis [old Athens] has not disappeared: it forms a whole quarter of the town.
An immense majority of the population in this quarter is composed of Albanians."
("Greece and the Greeks of the Present Day", by Edmund About, page 160.)
4. "Through the end of the revolution in 1830, Greeks, including most of the nineteenth-century nationalists, seemed to have had a vague but firm sense of continuity from ancient to modern Greece, though this was not articulated in racial terms but on the basis of a common language, history and consciousness. In effect at this time, whoever called themselves a Greek was a Greek. It is because of this that many Greek-speaking Albanians, Slavs, Rumanians and Vlachs were easily assimilated and indeed became important players in Greek patriotism at the time." ("The Empty Cradle of Democracy", by Alexandra Halkias, page 59.)
5. "The first Greek who had a plan for insurrection and for a liberated Greece was Rhigas of Valestino.
Rhigas was the author of poems, revolutionary proclamations and a constitution…
In this document he spoke of a sovereign people of the proposed state as including ´without distinction of religion and language – Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs, Armenians, Turks and every other race´.
It seems that in their minds the distinction between ´Greek´ and ´Orthodox´ was still blurred."
("Appleton´s Annual Cyclopedia and register of important events 1901", Third Series Volume VI, page 113.)
6. "There cannot be an Athenian alive today who can trace a direct line of descent from classical times to the present day without leaving Athens. Because of numerous and protracted foreign occupations, true Athenians were a relatively small minority even in the Age of Pericles. In a later period, the city was suffering from severe depopulation and was re-stocked with Albanians. At the time of Greek independence in 1834, Athens was a miserable village with a population of only 6,000." ("Insight Guides Athens Greece Series", page 42.)
7. "It is one of a group made famous in the Greek revolution of 1821 by the bravery of its Albanian settlers, in defense of a country which they had never adopted for their own till this moment of danger came.
They brought to it moreover, the hoarded wealth of many years. Albanian captains, Albanian ships and Albanian gold became the strength of the Greek and the dread of the Turk. The successful close of the revolution found them as firmly allied with the Greek nationality as they have been previously alien to it, and there are now no names more honoured and beloved in Athens, no families more influential in its polite circles, than those of the Albanian leaders in the war of 1821, the Tombazis, the Miaulis the Condouriottis."
("The Atlantic Monthly: A magazine of literature, science, art and politics Vol. XLIX, January 1882, page 31.)
8. "Among the numerous islands of the Egian, arise several barren rocks, some of which are however gifted by nature with small and commodious heavens. Of this number are Hydra, Spezzia and Ipsara, the first two close to the Eastern shore of the Peloponnesus, and the latter not far from Scio, on the Asiatic coast. Tyranny and Want had driven some families, whose origin, like that of nearly all the peasants, who inhabited proper Greece, was Albanian, to take refuge on these desolate crags, where they built villages and sought a precarious existence by fishing."
("The Greek Revolution; in origin and progress", by Edward Blaquiere Esq., page 21.)
9. "In reality however, just before the Greek war of independence, most Greeks still referred to themselves as ´Romans. Vlachavas, the priest rebel leader who rose against the Ottomans, declared, ´A Romneos I was born a Romneos I will die."
("Bloodlines from the Ethnic Pride to Ethnic Terrorism", by Vamik Volkan, page 121.)
10. "Constantinople and all continental Greece were for centuries ruled and occupied by the Romans, and during many subsequent centuries invaded and colonized by Slavs. The Crusades and the Latin conquest brought a large influx of western Europeans, commonly called Franks, and, in later times, extensive Albanian settlements were made in Greek districts. Clearly, the modern Greek must be of very mixed blood."
("Turkey in Europe" by Sir Charles Elliot, page 267.)
11. "But it has been argued that since the modern day Greeks are not the descendents of the ancient Greeks: ´The Star of Vergina is not a Greek symbol, except in the sense that it happens to have been found in the territory of the present-day Greek state…´."
("Experimenting with Democracy Regime change in the Balkans", edited by Geoffrey Pridham and Tom Gallagher, page 271.)
12. "Contemporary historians state the Emperor Basilius also was a Sclavonian; many cities bearing Sclavonian appellations still exist in Greece, as, for instance, Platza, Stratza, Lutzana,…"
("The Foreign Quarterly Review Vol. XXVI", published in October M. DCCC. XL., 1841, page 73.)
13. "By the fourteenth century Orthodox Christian Arvanites had made their way into the Greek thema of the Byzantine Empire, which largely comprised the land that now constitutes Greece. They first came to Attica as early as 1883…They did not complete their immigration until 1759, when Sultan Murat III offered them land in Athens…Thus the Arvanites were already inhabiting Athens when the city became the capital of Greece in 1834."
("Fragments of Death Fables of Identity An Athenian Anthropography" by Nani Panourgia, page 27.)
14. "I have already said, and I will repeat it, that not one-fifth of the present population can with justice be called Greeks. The remainder are Slavonians, Albanians and Turks, with a slight infusion of Venetian blood."
("Travels in Greece and Russia", by Bayard Tailor, 1872, page 262.)
15. "It should be stressed, however, that the Greeks as an ethnic community during this period [1840´s] included many Grecophone or Hellenized Vlachs, Serbs or Orthodox Albanians."
("Greece and the Balkans Identities, Perceptions and Cultural Encounters since the Enlightenment", edited by Dimitris Tziovas, page6.)
16. "All Greek soldiers are required to be able to read and write, and if a conscript on joining has not acquired those rudiments of education, he is put to school. Not withstanding, the educational efforts of the government, as many as 30 percent proven fifteen years or so ago to be completely illiterate, while not more than 25 per cent had advanced beyond the ´three R´s´. This may be partly accounted for by the fact that these conscripts included both Albanians from the settlements in Attica and other parts of the Kingdom and pastoral Koutso-Vlachs, all of whom habitually speak their own dialects and learn Greek only as a foreign tongue."
("Greece of the Hellenes", by Lucy M. J. Garnett, 1914, pages 33 and 34.)
17. "I could speak Turkish, and the Macedonian dialect, besides my own Greek tongue, and as a curious boy in the holidays I had been here and there, wishing to know more of the world round me and the people who lived in other villages than mine.
Being neither Turkish nor Greek, we called them Bulgarian, but their language is not Bulgarian, but the Macedonian dialect, and I found lovable people among them, honest, hospitable and kind."
("When I was a Boy in Greece" by George Demetrios, pages 131 and 132.)
18. "The migration of the Albanians is the best attested and in many ways the most instructive of migrations into Greece….
We had difficulty staying because they were rather suspicious of us, but we stayed with a man who talked Greek as his main language, although he talked to his wife in Albanian…
The ancestors of these people probably came to the Epidaurus in the fourteenth or fifteenth century, but they were still talking Albanian as their mother tongue in 1930….
Albanian was the language they talked among themselves, but they could also talk Greek. This was their second language although they lived in Greece….
The one in Epirus which was still Albanian in its customs and its language had probably been there since about 1400…
A group of 10,000 Albanians with their families and their flocks appeared there, and asked if they could be admitted to the Peloponnesus. They were accepted by Theodore, who was the principle ruler of the Peloponnesus…"
("Greece Old and New", by Nicholas Hammond, edited by Tom Winnifrith and Penelope Murray, Pages 39 to 44.)
19. "…so, in the Middle Ages, these Albanian mountaineers have brought both war like spirit, bright costume, and beauty of person, to refresh the Hellenic race. There are still, even in Attica, districts where Albanian is the common language; there are Albanian names famous in Greek annals, especially in the great war of independence (1821-1831) and even among the sailors of Hydra, so famed for their commercial enterprise and their deeds of war, the chief families were Albanian in origin."
("Greek Pictures drawn with pen and pencil" by J. P. Mahaffy, M.A. D.D., 1890, pages 20 and 21.)
20. "Groups of men in stately Albanian costume, with their grand walk and graceful air, stalk up and down with eastern impassibility, price an article, call for a ´fotia´ (brazier of coals for lighting cigarettes) , at the cafés, or converse in the strange patois of Greece about the last conclusion of the ´vouli´ or house of delegates."
("Greek Vignettes a sail in the Greek Seas, Summer of 1877", by James Albert Herrison, page 148.)
21. "In the 1770´s a fiery Orthodox preacher, the monk Kosmas of Aetolia, tried to stem the tide of mass conversions to Islam in the Northern Greek lands by founding Greek schools in a score of villages in Thessaly, Epirus and Macedonia, where the language had long been abandoned for Albanian, Vlach or Slav, and obliged peasants to speak only Greek."
("Greece the Modern Sequel from 1821 to the Present", by John S. Koliopoulos and Thanos M. Veremis, page 159.)
22. "…following the alleged discovery of Slavic buildings by the German excavator at Olympia. The claims were answered by Paparrigopoulos himself, by reinstating his 1843 position that there was indeed a Slavic presence in the Peloponnesus in the Middle Ages, but that the Greeks need not worry because the Slavs were culturally absorbed…"
("The Nation and its Ruins", by Yannis Hamilakis, page 115.)
23. "In 1358 the Albanians overran Epirus, Acarnania and Anatolia and established two principalities under their leaders…
Naupactas fell into their control in 1378…
Other Albanians and Vlachs invaded the Catalan principality of Boeotia and Attica, and a great many Albanians settled there as peasant-farmers in 1368 and later….
The penetration of the Greek mainland which we have described occurred during the hundred or more years after 1325."
("Migrations and Invasions in Greece and Adjacent Areas", by Nicholas G. L. Hammond, page 59.)
24. "When arriving by airplane at Athens, one lands at the new airport at Spata. Spata is a town situated in the Messogia region that bears and Arvanite name that means ´axe´ or ´sword´ (in Greek ´spaps´, spaya from which derives the Albanian Spata). The term ´Arvanite´ is the medieval equivalent of ´Albanian´. It is retained today for the descendants of the Albanian tribes that migrated to the Greek lands during the period covering two centuries, from the thirteenth to the fifteenth."
("Hellenism Culture, Identity, and Ethnicity from Antiquity to Modernity", edited by Katerina Zacharia, page 230.)
25. "With them it would be a resurrection, accomplished, no doubt, after vast pains and many troubles, the more so since the Greeks are a composite people among whom the descendents of the veritable Greeks of old are in great minority. The majority are of Albanian and Suliot blood, races which even the Romans found untamable."
("In Greek Waters: a story of the Grecian War of Independence (1821-1827), by G. A. Henty, 1893, page 40.)
26. "Where are we to look for the descendents of the Greeks of old? Travelers tell us that, as late as the sixteenth century, Athens was but a castle with a small village; and that Sparta, divided by two tribes of the Slavi, the Ezeriti and the Milingi, had not only lost her ancient name, but it was impossible to recognize the site in which she had stood of old."
("History of the Island of Corfu" by Henry Jervis-White Jervis ESQ., page 250.)
27. "General interest was first aroused by a controversy as to the racial derivation of modern Greeks. The war of Independence had won the sympathy of Europe; and it was a rude shock both to Greece and to her champions when Fallmerayer announced that her inhabitants were virtually Slavs. The race of the Hellenes he declared in his ´History of the Morea´ was routed out, and Athens was unoccupied from the sixth to the tenth century. Only its literature and a few ruins survived to tell that the Greek people had ever existed. What the Slavs had began the Albanians completed."
("History and Historians in the Nineteenth Century", by G. P. Gooch, 1918, page 491.)
28. "There were few Muslims here; the inhabitants largely of Albanian stock, were only imperfectly assimilated into the Greek nation…" ("Politics in Modern Greece", by Keith R. Legg, page 48.)
"The term ´Greek´ differentiates the language spoken by inhabitants of modern Greece from the languages of the surrounding countries; but there is disagreement on what the Greek language was, is, or should be. At the time of independence, the range of local dialects was significant; substantial portions of the population spoke Albanian."
("Politics in Modern Greece", by Keith R. Legg, page 86.)
29. "…followed by violence, recourse was had to arms, and the two elder brothers united against Vely, the offspring of a slave; who being forced to expatriate himself, embraced the perilous profession of those Albanian knights errant, more commonly known by the appellation of kleftes or brigands."
("The Life of Ali Pasha of Jannina, 1823, page 26.)
30. "There is the case of Karamanlides, a predominantly Turkish-speaking Christian Orthodox people, who were forced to go to Greece although they did not necessarily identify ´ethnically´ with the Greeks. At the time of the exchange they numbered as many as 400,000."
("Mediating the Nation News, Audiences and the Politics of Identity", Mirca Madianou, page 31.)
31, "Morea…as Fallmerayer traces it back to the Slavic word ´more´, the sea which nearly encircles the Morea. The Morea forms the most southern part of the Kingdom of Greece and is divided into the monarchies of Argolis, Corinth, Lakonis, Messenia, Archadia, Achaea and Elis.
Overrun by the Goths and Vandals, it became prey, in the second half of the 8th c. to bands of Slavic invaders who found it wasted by war and pestilence."
("International Cyclopedia a Compendium of Human Knowledge", American Editor-in-Chief Richard Gleason Green, 1890, page 204.)
32. "This point is made in almost all publications on Albanian nationalism (e.g. Skendi 1967 and 1980). In the nineteenth century, the Greek historian Constantinos Paparrigopoulos considered the Albanians a ´race´ that could be acculturated into Hellenism. His viewpoint was greatly influenced by the considerable Albanian contribution to the Greek war of independence (1821-1828)."
("Nationalism Globalization and Orthodoxy" by Victor Roudometof, page 156.)
33. "Rhigas of Valentino….author of poems, revolutionary proclamations and a constitution…
In this document he spoke of a sovereign people of the proposed state as including ´without distinction of religion and language – Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs, Armenians, Turks and every other race´."
("Nations and States", by Hugh Seton-Watson, page 113.)
34. "As of 2002 more than 98,000 foreign pupils were enrolled in Greek schools, accounting for almost 9 percent of the overall school population. As regards nationality, 72 percent are from Albania.
Clearly, Albanians are not unknown to Greeks and the new relationships emerging from the contemporary migratory context can be seen as superimposing themselves into a pre-existing trans-Balkan context."
("The New Albanian Migration", edited by Russell King, Nicola Mai and Stephanie Schwandner-Sievers, page 155.)
35. "Next to them in this respect are the modern Greeks, who, for the most part, are of Sclavonian origin, and, where they are not purely Sclavonian, are a cross-breed in which Sclavonian enters very largely."
("The Phrenological Journal and Magazine of Moral Science for the year 1843", Vol. XIV, page 246.)
36. "The modern Greeks are largely of Slavic origin. They are not the descendents of the ancient Greeks. That noble race, greatly mixed with barbarian blood during the middle ages, was almost completely destroyed in the course of the frequent uprisings against Turkish rule. Slavic immigrants gradually repopulated the country."
("The Popular Science Monthly", edited by J. McKeen Cattell", Volume LXXV, July to December 1909, page 591.)
37. "There was little interest as to the nationality of the rayahs while Turkish rule was strong. They were nearly all Christians of the Byzantine type, those in Europe at least, and were hence regarded as one people, for oriental theocracy cannot conceive of nationality apart from religion. They themselves knew the differences in their origins and in such traditions as they had: some were Slavs, some Vlachs and some Albanians…"
("Political Science Quarterly" edited by the faculty of science of Columbia University, Volume twenty-third, 1908, page 307.)
38. "Since the Christian era, as we have said, a successive downpour of foreigners from the north into Greece has ensued. In the sixth century came the Avars and the Slavs, bringing death and disaster. A more potent and lasting influence upon the country was probably produced by the slower and more peaceful infiltration of the Slavs into Thessaly and Epirus from the end of the seventh century onward.
The most important immigration of all is probably that of the Albanians, who, from the thirteenth century until the advent of the Turks incessantly overran the land."
("The Races of Europe a Sociological Study", by William Z. Ripley PhD, 1910, page 408.)
39. "When the Macedonians became rulers of Greece, Athens had twenty-one thousand citizens, ten thousand resident aliens and four-hundred thousand slaves."
("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, page 86.)
"The resident aliens were mainly Aryan-Hemitic-Semetic-Egyptian-Negroid mongrels."
("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, page 87.)
"In the course of time the Hellenic blood was corrupted to a still greater extent. In 146 BC the Romans conquered Greece…When Mummius took Corinth…All the men were killed, the women and children were sold into slavery. Later the Goths invaded Greece…laid waste the land, and expelled or exterminated the inhabitants."
("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, pages 88 and 89.)
"The only difference between modern Greeks and the other Balkanacs lies in the fact that the environment of the modern Greeks is the environment of the Hellenes. The environment, however, has no power whatsoever to change the mongrel into a race, and the Greeks have not been changed by it." ("Race or Mongrel", by Alfred P. Schultz, page 93.)
40. "The ethnographic record certainly shows that Rhigas could have identified as both Vlach and Greek, and even preferred one over another in different circumstances. The Koutsovlach contribution to Greek independence is well attested."
("Modern Greece a Cultural Poetics", by Vangelis Calotychos, page 44.)
"He consequently never traveled to Greece to implement the second part of his plan. Like many Philhellenes and Diaspora figures Rhigas never did set foot in Greece, which was fitting for one whose image of the place bore many characteristics of a European discourse located and produced outside of the Greek mainland."
("Modern Greece a Cultural Poetics", by Vangelis Calotychos, page 47.)
41. "In the last year of the 15th century, and the opening years of the 16th, when the Morea was again the battlefield of the Turks and Venetians, the occupants of the plain of Argos and portions of Attica were practically exterminated, and Albanian colonists began to reoccupy the lands."
("The Customs and Lore of Modern Greece", by Rennell Rodd, 1892, page 17.)
42. "Modern Greece is so flimsy and fragile, that it goes to pieces entirely when confronted with the roughest fragment of the old. But there is very little of it, and if you choose you may see exactly what the Greeks of the 5th century saw, and, the people of Athens are, of course, no more Athenian than I am."
("In Byron´s Shadow Modern Greece in the English and American Imagination", by David Roessel, page 163.)
43. "This revival also allowed the Byzantines to re-colonize the Greek mainland. The success of that effort would prove crucial to the survival of Greek culture in future centuries, after the other lands had fallen away. Having overrun nearly all the Greek mainland, the cities, and the islands by the tenth century the Slavs in Greece have been converted to Orthodox Christianity and thoroughly Hellenized."
("Sailing from Byzantium How a Lost Empire Shaped the World", by Colin Wells, page 184.)
44. "The Vlachs, on the contrary, descendents of the Romanized people of the Balkan peninsula, live in considerable numbers in the mountains of northern and central Greece."
("The Scottish Geographical Magazine", volume XIII, 1897, page 370.)
45. "Europe´s affinity with ancient Greece left the newborn nation of Greece in an awkward double bind. Identifying ancient Greece as the ´childhood of Europe´ Winkelmann gave the patrimony of Greece to western Europe, leaving only more modern sights of heritage to the modern Greeks. Michael Herzfeld suggests that ´the west supported the Greeks on their implicit assumption that the Greeks would reciprocally accept the role of living ancestors of European civilization´."
("Possessors and Possessed", by Wendy M. K. Shaw, page 66.)
46. "It is simply not plausible to suggest that the bulk of Greek speaking Roman citizens in the Middle Ages, let alone the former Turkish subjects of 19th century Greece, ´lived like, ancient Greeks."
("Macedonia and Greece the Struggle to Define a New Balkan Nation", by John Shea, page 95.)
47. "Not less remarkable than the small size of Hellas was the small size of the Hellenes themselves. But it is much more easy to trace the boundaries of the one upon the modern map than it is to trace the blood of the other in the bodies of the modern inhabitants.
We have no accurate record of the proportions of free citizens who alone constituted the true Hellenes, but they were at most a small minority among the large population of helots and slaves."
("The Nineteenth Century a Monthly Review", edited by James Knowles, Vol. VI, July-December 1879, page 932.)
48. "The Albanians of Hydra and Spatsae, many of whom could not even speak Greek, regarded themselves as Greek because their allegiance was with the Orthodox Church."
("That Greece Might Still be Free", by William St. Clair, page 9.)
49. "Here is the ultimate Greek tragedy: that of a country forced to treat everything familiar at the time of the nation-state´s foundation as ´foreign´ while importing a culture largely invented – or at least – redesigned by German classicists of the late eighteenth early nineteenth centuries. For many decades, and almost without interruption, Greeks were forced to put aside music, art and language that were deemed too tainted by the ´oriental´ influences of Ottoman, Arab, Slavic and Albanian culture; to forget the partially Albanian roots of Athens and its environs…"
("The Body Impolitic" by Michael Herzfeld, page 9.)
50. "The philhellenes – the word means ´the admirers of the Greeks´ – who began to lobby for Greek freedom were struck by the contrast between the idea of ancient Greek freedom and the servitude of the modern Greeks, who were usually assumed to be direct descendents of Pericles and company. Philhellenes generally moved at a distance from reality: they were concerned only with the myth of Athens and were capable of ignoring anything which tended to tarnish the glamour."
("Athens from Ancient Ideal to Modern City", by Robin Waterfield, page 296.)
51. "There were, however, several magnificent specimens of Greek palicars, who added to the advantage of soldier like, but rather swaggering carriage, all the accessories of their picturesque costume. Nine or ten of them performed the Albanian national dance, to the sound of a bad fiddle and a jingling guitar played with a quill for the amusement of her majesty, who did not seem enchanted with this exhibition.
And these men, who were exposing themselves in this absurd manner, were the far-famed Colocotroni, Nikitas, surnamed the Turkofagos, or Turk eater, Makryani, Vasso of Montinegro, Nota Botsaris, and other equally celebrated."
("Blackwood´s Edinburgh Magazine", Vol. XLIII, January – June 1838)
52. "When Athens was chosen as the site for the modern capital of the new nation, and its (re)construction was planned along lines of Hellenic purity, the unsettling evidence of Greece´s Ottoman heritage along with local vernacular forms had to be confronted, all the more so when situated in the immediate vicinity of remains of classical antiquity. Early nineteenth-century Athens was viewed as a ´disgraceful site´ (Boyer 1996: 163) full of imperfections, ranging from the city´s physical aspect to the spoken language that called for, ´filtering-out´ interventions."
("Contested Landscapes Movement, Exile and Place", Edited by Barbara Bender and Margot Winer, page 23)
53. "In 1851, at the time of her enfranchisement, Greece possessed about one million inhabitants, of whom a quarter were Albanians or Walachians. The population was a residue of invaders of all peoples, and notable of Slavs. For centuries the Greeks properly so called had disappeared from Greece. From the time of the Roman conquest, Greece was regarded by every adventurer as a nursery of slaves, which everyone might have recourse to with impunity."
("The Psychology of Socialism", by Gustav Lo Bon, page 206)
54. "The Greek influence which has partially Hellenized the Vlachs of Macedonia to-day can hardly date from before the Turkish conquest. It is the work not of the Byzantine Empire but of the modern Church, and seems to have reached its height during the eighteenth century."
("Macedonia its races and the future", by H. N. Brailsford , page 181)
55. "Greek statesman said Albanian was not a language – it had no literature, not even an alphabet - it is a mere patois, and would die out in a generation, and the children of the Albanian soldiers and sailors would all be good Greeks."
("The Catholic Presbyterian an International Journal Ecclesiastical and Religious", vol. II, July – December 1879, edited by Professor W. G. Blaikie D.D., L.L.D., F.R.S.E., page 319).
56. " We have many instances of the daring of these Greek robbers, one of which I shall here relate, as received from their chief, no less a personage than Colocotroni, who was in our service, and has since, as may be remembered, made himself conspicuous in Greece. He is an Albanian, and, as he acknowledges, a kleftis (robber)."
("Selections from my Journal during a residence in the Mediterranean", pages 110 and 111)
57. "…the historical absurdity of declaring Hellenic civilization the expression of a culture uncontaminated by foreign elements can be explained by a simple fact that tends to be disregarded – namely, that Hellenic civilization that we know it was in effect the invention of the ´Science of Antiquity´, of Classics. As such, it could have been (and was) endowed with whatever signification the discipline found useful."
("Dream Nation Enlightenment, Colonization and the Institution of Modern Greece", by Stathis Gourgouris, page 134)
58. "After successive treaties, (London 1913, Bucharest 1913), Greece acquired much of Macedonia, Epirus, Crete and the north-eastern islands of the Aegean. Greek land increased by 70 percent and the population almost doubled from 2,800,000 to 4,800,000 some of whom were Slavs and Turks."
("Entangled Identities Nations and Europe", Edited by Atsuko Ichijo and Willfried Sohn, page 112)
59. "Yet so much of the Sclavonian element had been infused into the latter that the modern Greeks are found to differ widely from their remote ancestors."
("Foreign Quarterly Review", Vol. XXVI, 1841, page 73)
60. "…the question of Greece´s political and ethnic status generated a considerable amount of debate in western Europe. As Michael Herzfeld argues in ´Ours once more: Folklore, Ideology and the Making of Modern Greece´: ´to be a European, was in ideological terms, to be a Hellene´ (1982: 15). Many Europeans of the time, however, believed the contemporary Greeks to be an adulterated version of the Classical Greeks – ´Byzantine Slavs…"
("Grafting Helen The Abduction of the Classical Past", Matthew Gumpert, pages 239 and 240)
61. "…since the Greeks are a composite people among whom the descendents of the veritable Greek of old are in a great minority. The majority are of Albanian and Solute blood, races which even the Romans found untamable."
("In Greek Waters: a Story of the Grecian War of Independence (1821-1827)", By G.A. Henty, 1893, page 40)
62. "General interest was first aroused by a controversy as to the racial derivation of modern Greeks. The War of Independence had won the sympathy of Europe; and it was a rude shock both to Greece and her champions when Fallmerayer announced that her inhabitants were virtually Slavs. The race of the Hellenes, he declared in his ´History of Morea´, was routed out and Athens was unoccupied from the sixth to the tenth century. Only its literature and a few ruins survived to tell that the Greek people ever existed. What the Slavs had begun the Albanians had completed."
("History and Historians in the Nineteenth Century", by G.P. Gooch, pages 490 and 491)
63. "Old Corinth passed through its various stages, Greek, Roman, Byzantine, Turkish. After the War of Independence it was again Greek, and, being a considerable town, was suggested as the capital of the new Kingdom of Greece. The earthquake of 1858 leveled it to the ground with the exception of about a dozen houses. A mere handful of the old inhabitants remained on the site. But fertile fields and running water made it attractive; and outsiders gradually came in. At present, it is an untidy poverty-stricken village of about 1,000 inhabitants, mostly of Albanian Blood."
("The Encyclopedia Britannica" Eleventh edition, Vol. VII, 1910, page 148)
64. "The modern Greeks possess none of the qualities which make nations great. Their existence is due to the battle of Navarino, for in the autumn of 1827 Greece was unquestionably conquered by the arms of the Grand Vizier Reshid Mehmed and by Ibrahim Pasha of Egypt, and again the ´untoward event´ of Navarino could only occur at a time when Phil-Hellenism was a sort of social disease, caused by hallucinations and by the illusion of finding in the present a mongrel inhabitants of the Morea and Attica the descendents of the ancient Hellenes."
("The Syrian War and the decline of the Ottoman Empire (1840-1848)", by Byron Augustus Jochmus, page 100)
65. "The notion of a ´Greek´ identity in the modern sense is itself in large part the creation of the movement towards statehood. It was not until the nineteenth century that the term came to describe a homogenous ethnic group in the modern sense. Instead, the people of the Peloponnesos, including Argolida, made up an intricate mosaic of ethnicities and languages. In Argolida dialects of Albanian, Greek, Turkish and other local languages were spoken (Andromedas 1976)."
("Blood and Oranges Immigrant Labour and European Markets in Rural Greece", by Christopher M. Lawrence, page 12)
66. "…Greek national feeling was already quite strong at the beginning of the nineteenth century. Even the Albanian-speaking Orthodox did not regard themselves only as Rum (members of the religious community or Orthodox Christian millet) but also as real Greeks."
("From Geopolitics to Global Politics", editor Jacques Levy, page 174)
67. "…he devoted his personal attention exclusively to the latter, assigning Joannina to his son-in-law, Thomas Preliubovich, in 1367, and Aetolia and Akarnania to two Albanian chiefs, belonging to the clan Boua and Liosa – a name still to be found in the plans of Attica. Thus, about 1362, all north-west Greece was Albanian…"
("The Latins in the Lavant a History of Frankish Greece (1204-1566), by William Miller M.A., 1908, page 294)
68. "Overrun by the Goths and Vandals, it became a pay, by the second half of the 8th c., to bands of Slavic invaders, who found it wasted by war and pestilence. Gradually however, these barbarians were subdued and Grecianized by the Byzantine Emperors. Nevertheless the numerous names of places, Rivers, etc., in the Morea of Slavic origin, prove how firmly they had routed themselves, and that the Moreotes are anything but pure Greeks."
("The International Encyclopedia a Compendium of Human Knowledge", edited by Richard Gleeson Green, 1890, page 204)
69. "…between a cheer and a whine, and presently their Imperial Majesties of Greece, cantered up the hill attended by four dignitaries, and as many equerries. The queen was dressed in a dark green riding-habit, black beaver with drooping feather, and veil. King Otho wore the Albanian costume of crimson, gold embroidered jacket and legs, white fustanela, with a richly chased saber belted over his shoulder."
("Scampavians from Gibil Tarek to Stamboul", by Harry Gringo, 1857)
70. "There was little interest as to the nationality of the Rayahs while Turkish rule was strong. They were nearly all Christians of the Byzantine type, those in Europe at least, and were hence regarded as one people, for oriental theocracy cannot conceive nationality apart from religion. They themselves know the difference in their origins and in such traditions as they had: some were Slavs, some Vlachs and some Albanians…; they were all non-Muslims, all Rayahs, and in a sense all Greeks."
("Political Science Quarterly", Columbia University, 1908, page 307)
71. "The revolution of 1821 has restored the ancient appellation ´Elines´, but as it is used chiefly by the inhabitants of Bavarian Greece, who perhaps don´t constitute more than one fourth of the Greek nation, it may safely be said that the mass of the people still call themselves ´Romaii´ and their language ´Romaiki´."
("A Romaik Grammar", by E.A. Sophocles, 1842, page iv)
72. "From their manners, their features and their names of many of their neighbouring places, I should be tempted to regard them [Mainiotes] proceeding of Sclavonian blood: many travelers pretend, however, to have discovered in these barbarous hordes traces of a Spartan origin."
("Recollections of a Classical Tour through various parts of Greece, Turkey and Italy made in the years 1818 and 1819", by Peter Edmund Laurent, 1821, page 182)
73. "The Greeks have not taken much interest in their past until Europeans became enthusiastic discoverers and diggers of their ruins. And why should they have cared? The Greeks were not Greek but rather the illiterate descendents of Slavs and Albanian fishermen who spoke a debased Greek dialect and had little interest in the broken columns and temples except as places to graze their sheep. The true philhellenists were the English – of whom Byron was the epitome – and the French, who were passionate to link themselves to the Greek ideal."
("The Pillars of Hercules" by Paul Thereoux, page 316)
74. "…Neohellenic Enlightenment sanctioned a selective tradition, with particular emphasis upon an imaginary classical antiquity, and sought to suppress what was deemed to be a ´non-significant tradition´, mainly the Byzantine and Ottoman legacy. Through this ideological management of the past, it achieved the displacement of a substance part of the history, memory and experience of those it sought to shape into modern Greeks."
("Tormented by History Nationalism in Greece and Turkey", by Umut Oskirimu and Spiros A. Sofos, page 24)
75. "There are two other difficulties involved in the history of the Turkish period. In tracing the movements of merchandise and men in the Balkan peninsula it is extremely difficult to differentiate the various races involved. Western travelers knew little, Turkish authorities cared less. Even the polyglot Vlachs themselves knew nor cared a great deal and until the rise of national conciousness at the end of the eighteenth century were probably quite happy with the label of Greek, which was good enough for outside observers."
("The Vlachs the History of a Balkan People", by T.J. Winnifrith, pages 124 and 125)

http://www.arberiaonline.com/viewtopic.php?f=94&t=3991

Dian
19-03-11, 12:36
that's interesting, i think southern albanians should admit that they descend from ancient preistoric greek population (look at albania tribes map).
Before drawing hasty conclusions, and I'm doing a simple question. Why the area where live the Arberesh in Sicily, before was called "Piana dei Greci", and now is called "Piana degli Albanesi"?
http://img855.imageshack.us/img855/6482/pianadeglialbanesi.png

Elias2
19-03-11, 14:28
Dian I know alot of greek decend from albanians, but that doesn't mean greeks arn't still in southern albania. Maybe albania should recognise the Protocol of Corfu and the autonomy of Northern epuris state, that would be nice!

"In accordance with the wishes of the local Greek population, the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomous_Republic_of_Northern_Epirus), centered in Gjirokastër (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjirokast%C3%ABr) on account of the latter's large Greek population,[27] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Epirus#cite_note-26) was declared in March 1914 by the pro-Greek party, which was in power in southern Albania at that time.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Epirus#cite_note-Stickney.2C_Edith_Piermont-27) Georgios Christakis-Zografos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgios_Christakis-Zografos), a distinguished Greek politician from Lunxhëri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lunxh%C3%ABri), took the initiative and became the head of the Republic. In May, autonomy was confirmed with the Protocol of Corfu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_of_Corfu), signed by Albanian and Northern Epiroterepresentatives and approved by the Great Powers. The signing of the Protocol ensured that the region would have its own administration, recognized the rights of the local Greeks and provided self government under nominal Albanian sovereignty.[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Epirus#cite_note-Stickney.2C_Edith_Piermont-27)
However, the agreement was never fully implemented, because when World War I broke out in July, Albania collapsed. Although short-lived,[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Epirus#cite_note-Stickney.2C_Edith_Piermont-27)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_Epirus#cite_note-28) the Autonomous Republic of Northern Epirus left behind a substantial historical record, such as its own postage stamps."

Greece has a problem with neighbours not honouring treaties! ;) I know albanias think they can achieve a greater albania because of what happened in kosovo, but that's not even a real country! It's a tiny 1.5 million person breakaway province that has no real future! If albanians start problems with the other two neighbours (FYROM, Greece) they will regret it! ;)

Dian
19-03-11, 14:51
the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast; this theory has been upheld in the past on the basis of the (i) their historical obscurity until the last millennium, and (ii) the paucity of native sea terms and Greek loanwords in Albanian, which is difficult to explain if Albanians always occupied their current location on the Adriatic.
[/B]
>Ok, we all know that the sea is a large area of water. but which word use the Albanians for water?
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9780/ujor.png
>and the "ancient greek"?
http://img810.imageshack.us/img810/2065/uje.png
http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/7664/udhor.png
>and ask to some well-trained military, how did they find the way when they are lost.
http://img689.imageshack.us/img689/8875/udhetoj.png
>and the chinese?
http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9084/shui.png
>and the ancient egyptians?
http://img859.imageshack.us/img859/5476/egjiptuj.png
http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/4608/egjiptuj2.png
>but it's interesting this one:
http://img121.imageshack.us/img121/2276/westtd.png
http://img46.imageshack.us/img46/1699/occidente.png
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/4310/europeb.png
>and according to Stephen of Bizantium 6th century AD)
http://img858.imageshack.us/img858/4088/jond.png
http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/1574/marenostrum.png
>and the Albanians for "our" say........
http://img576.imageshack.us/img576/6062/ioniansea.png
>I hope you understand what I'm talking!

iapetoc
19-03-11, 15:03
Well some people did accept Truth


except gennetic who prove that the majority of modern Albania
Also Linguist prove that

Albanians like the late Aristidh Kola claim that the Albanian language is Pelasgian. Let's see what linguists say:

'Historical linguists point out that these borrowings from Ancient Greek were in the Doric dialect and penetrated into Illyrian through Corinthian commercial colonies in Corfu, along the Adriatic coast, and through border towns.'

(Edwin E. Jacques, the Albanians: an ethnic history from pre-historic times to the present, p 37)

``The Albanian language has borrowed many words from Latin, Greek and Turkish.
(Andrew Dalby, Dictionary of Languages: The Definitive Reference to More than 400 languages, p 13)

Our knowledge of Albanian, except for a few words, extends back only as far as the fifteenth century of our era, and when we first meet with it, the vocabulary is so mixed with Latin, Greek, Turkish, and Slavonic elements owing to conquests and other causes that it is somewhat difficult to isolate the original Albanian.
(Albert C. Baugh, Thomas Cable, A History of the English Language, p 25)

``Proto-Albanian is viewed as a language already possessing several features typical of the Albanian linguistic type. We reconstruct it in two forms: Early Proto-Albanian immediately before the beginning of linguistic contacts with speakers of Latin/Romance (1st century CE), and Late Proto-Albanian following contacts with Proto-Romance and ancient Slavic dialects still close to Proto-Slavic (6th-7th centuries CE). Major changes shattered the structure of Proto-Albanian during this short but eventful period.
(Vladimir E. Orel, A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language, preface xii)

``The majority of Albanian speakers are Muslims: numerous words and names are borrowed from Arabic, language of the Quran.
(Andrew Dalby, Dictionary of Languages: The Definitive Reference to More than 400 languages, p 13)

``of the Greek words which appear in Albanian, a few have internal marks, as having been adopted before the corruption of the language; a larger proportion afford the same evidence of having been taken from the Romaic Greek, and there are many also whose forms, being the same both in ancient and modern Greek dialect, are of uncertain date.
(Charles Loring Brace , The Races of the Old world: A Manual of Ethnology p 268)

``As to the character of the Albanian, it may be affirmed that more than a third of its primitives are Greek roots reduced to their primitive, barbarous and monosyllabic form; it is equally true that the Greek words in Albanian are more closely allied to those in the Aeolic dialect
(Conrad Malte-Brun, Universal Geography, p 109 )


'Historical linguists point out that these borrowings from Ancient Greek were in the Doric dialect and penetrated into Illyrian through Corinthian commercial colonies in Corfu, along the Adriatic coast, and through border towns.' (Edwin E. Jacques, the Albanians: an ethnic history from pre-historic times to the present, p 37, section 8)

``That Albanian was an Indo-European language was first recognized in 1854 by Franz bopp. Its Indo-European nature has been obscured to early investigators by the heavy lexical borrowing that had taken place in Albanian from Greek, Latin, Slavic and Turkish.
(J.P Mallory, Douglas Q. Adams, Encyclopedia of Indo-European Culture, p 9)

``It was in these ages of Bulgarian prowess, that the remains of the Illyrian and Epirotic nations became finally included with the boundaries which they have ever since held. Many Sclavonian words then found their way into the Albanian language.
(Charles Loring Brace , The Races of the Old world: A Manual of Ethnology p 268)

``The Byzantine world, mainly through the Orthodox Church, helped spread Greek culture in Albania, as in other Balkan countries.
(Albert C. Baugh, Thomas Cable, A History of the English Language, p 6)

``Latin loanwords are of extreme importance for the history of Albanian phonology, especially its vocalism.
(Vladimir E. Orel, A Concise Historical Grammar of the Albanian Language, p 23)

``Both Gheg and Tosk dialects are loaded with loan-words.
(The Journal of International Relations, p 56)

``On account of the large number of Greek loan-words in its vocabulary, the Albanian
was formerly thought to belong to the Hellenic branch of dialects. (New International Encyclopedia, p324)

``Albanian would derive from an ancient admixture of Balkan tongues.
(Albert C. Baugh, Thomas Cable, A History of the English Language, p 4)
``Until the 20thcentury, Albanian was always subordinate to some other language. In particular, since the territory was ruled by Rome for some five centuries, lexis and word-formation were deeply marked by Latin.
(Albert C. Baugh, Thomas Cable, A History of the English Language, p 4)


READ GUSTAV MAYER

modern Albanian language in a total of 5140 word roots has
1420 Romanic (Wallachian Romanian Latin)
540 Slavic (Bulgarian Serbian)
1180 Turkish (due to islam)
840 Greek
400 Aryan
730 Unknown


the last 2 are linguistic treasure
400 Aryan, J mainly and I Y-Dna are consider Aryan
so most of them could be Pelasgic or Thracian origin

730 Unknown altough Mayer say unknown probably he could not find any root
As Dian said in another post that could be Kush Egyptian, which also Exist in Greek Language due to E-V13 migration from Cyprus to Greece to Dardania
Also they could be Transylvanian Carpathean or Cuman-hungarian due to Anju and the devastasion from Alba Lullia
Anju as Hunjadi were Cumans

the change From Centum to satem proves that modern Albanian is not the origin of Ancient Illirian or Pelasgic, But the Elements of Pelasgic and thracian proves that a % of people is ancient and put-kept these elements in modern Albanian language.


Only an Army of merceneries could have such a linguistic mix,
cause they must FAST assimilate words of many languages in order to prevail and survive,

That can prove that Maniakes Army first mentioned word Arverites (from Arvero)
is the root of modern Albanian language,
Remember Arvarut -Arbarut Army name in cappadokia


Now about Terror,

Greeks did not Burn Moschopolis
Greeks did not slain-slain Arberian suliotet
Greeks did slian Arbanites,

In opposite
Albanians Burn and genocide
Moschopolis area and town
Melea (Μηλια) villages in Epirus
Suliotet (arberians- Albanized Greeks)

Even in 2010 Albanian Nazi murdered Guma,, cause he spoke Greek in Albania.
Now who is using Fear is well knownwho is in hunt of every minority it is well knowneven at 2010

Gennetic Marks proves that Albanians came from North-East Transylvania,
And occupy areas of Arberians and Arbanites,
Gennetic marks are stronger than lInguistic,

what ever you say,
Gustav Mayer and Gennetic Ydna
Proves That a % of Albanians came from Transylavania,
and accept part of language of local Illyrian remnants, the Arbanites and Arberians

find who ally and enemy of Kastrioti comes from transylvania


when you serve an army you must learn army language and forget your own
Arberian language is the language that Maniakes army used, plus Illyrian elements from today Albania were Army return after MAniakes death,




According to the official propaganda:

But,according Stephen of Byzantium, also known as Stephanus Byzantinus(Greek: Στέφανος Βυζάντιος; fl. 6th century AD) in its geographical dictionary entitled Ethnica (Εθνικά), we have:
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7134/arpnia.png
http://img534.imageshack.us/img534/5836/enkeleas.png
Well ARPNIA !!!
http://i33.tinypic.com/2dkloqs.jpg
And so on....


it says Illyria not Albania

Dian
19-03-11, 15:20
BUT
[I]The Arbereshe Y-chromosome variation was investigated by sampling individuals from different villages of the Pollino area (Calabria) who bear one of the founding surnames of the population.
I can't download this study, so I can't give you a specific answer. Dienekes to me is non reliable. Remember that the situation is more complicated:
http://img853.imageshack.us/img853/5871/albanese.png
Y-chromosomes of Albanian populations (Ferri et al. 2010)
I will bring some fragments from this study.

Pairwise haplotype distances
Pairwise RST distances between 7-locus Y-STR haplotypes
in Albanians, Roma and non-Roma host populations were
summarised in Table S2 [26–46]. Almost all distance values
within and between Albanians reached statistical significance
(Table S2) except between the Tosks and their closest
Balkan neighbours (Greek, Macedonians, Bulgarians) and
between the Gabels or the Jevgs and some Roma groups
(i.e. Bulgarian and Slovakian Roma).
The populations with Balkan and Italian origin
grouped into separate clusters on the graph. The genetic
distances among Romani-speaking groups were generally
higher and did not correlate with geography in accordance
with the complex history of fragmentation since
the arrival of proto-gypsy groups in Europe and with
previous analyses [26]. The existence of a clear-cut
genetic sub-structure was further confirmed by AMOVA
considering three hierarchical levels and three population
groups (Roma/Balkan/Italian). The difference between
groups accounted for 10.6% of the total genetic variance
(p<0.00001) and was larger than the difference within
groups (4.9%, p<0.00001).
The Tosks fell well within the Balkan cluster and the
Gabels within the Roma cluster, whereas the Gheg and the
Jevg samples took an outlier position. In order to better
understand the cause of the intermediate genetic profile of
the two latter groups, we calculated the Y-STR haplotype
sharing between-sample pairs and surveyed SNP-based
variability. Such data should disclose genetic relationships
among populations, at the most recent and a more ancient
time scale, respectively.
Haplotype sharing
The proportion of haplotypes shared between population
samples is shown in Table S2. As for diversity values, the
results can be paired for Ghegs and Tosks and for Gabels
and Jevgs. At 7-locus haplotypes, the highest proportion
was between the two Albanian major groups (55.6%)
whereas the second highest proportions were between them
and the two Albanian minorities (34.4–41.6% as average).
Whatever the level of resolution, the Gabels and the Jevgs
showed the highest matching proportion between them
(60.8% at seven loci; 40.5% at 12 loci), and their affinity
with Roma tribes (40.5–51.4% and 27.8–28.0% as average)
was always much higher than with either major Albanians
or non-Roma Balkans.
------------------------------------------------------------
The present research contributed to define the first SNP
and STR profile of the two major Albanian ethnic groups
(Tosks and Ghegs) and of two minorities (Gabels and
Ghegs). The Tosk profile is largely consistent with the
variability expected in a panmictic population of southern
Balkan origin. Weak signatures of gene flow with Roma
groups, probably mediated by the Gabels or the Jevgs, have
been identified in the presence of H1-M52 lineages (2.5%).
The Gheg profile closely resembles the Tosk one for
haplogroup composition and level of H1 introgression
(0.6%). However, haplotype diversity values and the
skewed E1b1b1-M35 and I-M170 haplogroup frequencies
suggest a higher degree of reproductive isolation than in
Tosks, a condition that might also explain the partially
marginal position of the Ghegs in Y-SNP-based MDS plots
(Fig. 3).
So........

Dian
19-03-11, 15:24
it is genetically proved that Modern Albanians etc are Transylvanian and not Illyrian
(a friend here knows the Families name that came from Romania)


this is the most scientific reference I have read here..................

Dian
19-03-11, 15:38
[B]
``The Byzantine world, mainly through the Orthodox Church, helped spread Greek culture in Albania, as in other Balkan countries.
(Albert C. Baugh, Thomas Cable, A History of the English Language, p 6)
what ever you say,
Gustav Mayer and Gennetic Ydna
Proves That a % of Albanians came from Transylavania,
and accept part of language of local Illyrian remnants, the Arbanites and Arberians

I say :cool-v:

John Amos Comenius (Czech: Jan Amos Komenský; Slovak: Ján Amos Komenský; German: Johann Amos Comenius; Polish: Jan Amos Komeński; Hungarian: Comenius Ámos János; Latinized: Iohannes Amos Comenius) (28 March 1592 – 4 November 1670) was a Czech teacher, educator, and writer. He was the last bishop of Unity of the Brethren, a religious refugee, and one of the earliest champions of universal education, a concept eventually set forth in his book Didactica Magna. He is often considered the father of modern education.
http://i44.tinypic.com/okwlcz.png

Differentiation of 63 IE languages rappresented in a tree of greitlinguistic group based on the analysis of the root of 200 lexical signifiers, which are supposed to be the most preserved in all the languages examined. The numbers next to branches indicate % reliability of the construction of that particular branch. The scale located below the figure indicates the years before the present. Some languages are included 2 or 3 times, because it pertains to different dialectal variants or socio-linguistics. Eg, if I is the Gheg Albanian, Albanian II is the Toski, Albanian III is the national literary language. See Dyen, Kruskal and Black (1992), Piazza et al. Taken from the book:» Le radici prime dell'Europa: gli intrecci genetici, linguistici, storici» Di Luigi Cavalli-Sforza, Gianlucca Bocchi. Mondadori Editori, 2001.
http://books.google.it/books?id=AVXq...page&q&f=false
http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/5161/cavallisforza.jpg]

Dian
19-03-11, 15:54
[U][COLOR=Blue]
Greeks did not Burn Moschopolis
Greeks did not slain-slain Arberian suliotet
Greeks did slian Arbanites,
[/B]
But they do some massacres to the cham population :sad-2:
http://www.albanianhistory.net/texts20_2/AH1946.html

1946
Document of the Committee of Cham Albanians in exile,
on Greek persecution of the Chams,
submitted to the Human Rights Commission of the United Nations
Chameria, also known as southern Epirus, is a region, now part of Greece, that extends from the Greek-Albanian border down the coast of the Ionian Sea to Preveza and the Gulf of Arta. Its largest town, Janina (Ioannina), was once regarded as the capital of Albania. Chameria had an Albanian majority population, the Chams, until the region was invaded and incorporated into Greece during the Balkan Wars of 1912-1913. At that time, large sections of the native Albanian population, in particular the Muslims, were driven out of the country by Greek forces. The remaining Cham Albanians were expelled from their homeland in 1944, following massacres committed by Greek resistance forces under Napoleon Zervas (1891-1957). The Chams fled for the most part to Albania as impoverished refugees, having lost everything they owned. Regarded with suspicion by the new Communist authorities in Albania, they nonetheless managed to form an organization to defend their interests. This so-called Cham Anti-Fascist Committee protested and campaigned in the years immediately following the Second World War for a return of their property and Greek citizenship, but in vain. The following is a Memorandum sent by this committee to the United Nations Human Rights Commission in 1946.
We, the Anti-Fascist Committee of Cham immigrants in Albania, having faith in the democratic and humanitarian principles of the UN, and acting in the name of Cham immigrants in Albania, do hereby address the Investigating Commission concerning our lost rights, oppression, persecutions and massacres committed by Greek Fascists in order to exterminate the Albanian minority in Greece.
In pursuit of the protests and appeals that we have addressed to the Great Allies and the United Nations, we ask for justice with regard to the following:
For 32 years in succession, Greek chauvinist and reactionary cliques, in brutal violation of every humanitarian principle, and in total disregard of international treaties, have carried out a policy of extermination toward the Albanian minority in Greece.
Beginning with the Greek occupation of Chameria on February 23, 1913, the gang of Deli Janaqi, incited and assisted by the local authorities, massacred without cause whatsoever 72 men, in the brook of Selani, district of Paramithia.
This massacre marked the beginning of the drive to exterminate the Albanian minority, and made clear the orientation of Greek policy toward our population.
The hounding, persecutions, imprisonment, internment, tortures, and plunder carried out on the pretext of disarming [the population] in the years 1914-1921, the terrorist actions of outlaws, and the provocations of Gjen Baire in 1921, reveal the reality of the sufferings to which our population was subjected during the Greek occupation.
Koska, Lopsi, Varfanj, Karbunara, Kardhiq, Paramithia, Margëllëç, Arpica, Grykohori, and others, are some of the villages that paid an especially high price as a consequence of the terror.
In 1922-1923, the Greek authorities decided to displace the Moslem element of Chameria, in exchange for the Greeks in Asia Minor, on the pretext that we were Turks. This shameless act of the Athenian authorities ran into opposition on our part and the intervention of the League of Nations which, upon ascertaining the Albanian nationality of our people, rejected the decision of the Greek Government.
But despite the intervention of the League of Nations, and the solemn commitments undertaken by the Greek Government in Lausanne on 16 January 1923, the authorities in Athens continued their policy of extermination. They resorted to every device to make it difficult for the Albanian element to remain in Chameria, and confiscated 6,000 hectares of land owned by hundreds of families in Dushk, Gumenica, Kardhiq, Karbunara, and others, without compensating them in the least.
The government in Athens settled the immigrants from Asia Minor in Chameria, with the intention of peopling it with Greeks and creating conditions that would lead to the emigration of the autochthonous Albanian population.
Entire families were forced to abandon their birthplace and migrate to Turkey, Albania, America and elsewhere, and villages like Petrovica and Shëndellia were deserted completely by their Albanian inhabitants.
Under these circumstances, we did not enjoy any national rights, not even the use of our mother tongue. Fanaticism and ignorance were given support, instead of developing our national culture and stimulating progress. Instead of opening schools, they subsidized religious clubs in the Arab language. Ninety-five percent of our population remained illiterate. The province of Chameria, a fertile and prosperous land, remained backward, without economic development, without communication facilities, and in the hands of money-lenders and monopolists, such as: Koçoni, Pitulejtë, Kufalla, Zhulla, Ringa and others, who impoverished and enslaved the entire region.
In the war against Fascism, and more precisely at its conclusion, the reactionary Monarcho-Fascist forces of Llaka of Suli, which were created by the reaction to serve the occupier under the command of General Napoleon Zervas, turned on and treacherously massacred the Moslem Albanian inhabitants of Chameria.
At that time, when the troops of ELAS [National Popular Liberation Army] and our troops were committed to fighting the Germans, the leadership of EOEA [National Troops of Greek Guerillas], in league with the Germans, maneuvered to gain positions to fight a civil war. And when our forces, in keeping with the spirit and decisions of the protocol of Caserta (Sarafis-Zervas), August 1944, implemented the orders of the Joint Command in pursuit of the Germans, General Napoleon Zervas, commander of the resistance forces in Epirus (ELAS – EOEA), gave orders to massacre the innocent population of Chameria.
The massacres in Chameria were a flagrant violation of humanitarian principles, and a shameless disregard for the principles and the nature of the Anti-Fascist struggle. The massacres in Chameria were a result of collaboration and agreements with the Germans, who in the process of retreating, let Zervas forces take their place. Here is a concrete example of the collaboration between Zervas forces and the Germans. Theodhor Vito, the commander of the Zervas forces in the district of Filat, met the commander of the retreating German forces on 22 September 1944, in the village of Panaromen, 3 km. from Filat, just one day before the entrance of Zervas forces in Filat. Right after that meeting, and even before the German forces cleared out of Filat entirely, the forces of Theodhor Vito entered Filat. That close collaboration strengthened the position of the Zervas forces, and enabled them to initiate the terror and the massacres on a broad scale in all the districts of Chameria.
The forces of the 10th Division of EOEA, under the command of Col. Vasil Kamaras, and specifically the 16th Regiment of that division, which was led by Kranja and his aides Lefter Strugari, attorney Stavropullos Ballumi Zotos, the notorious criminals Patazejt and others, entered the town of Paramithia on 27 June 1944. Contrary to their promises and the agreement arrived at between mufti Hasan Abdullaj, on the one hand, and Shapera and the Bishop of Paramithia, on the other, who acted as agents of Zervas, the most ignoble massacres were set in motion. Defenseless men, women and children became targets for the Greek Monarcho-Fascists. The number of the massacred in the town of Paramithia and vicinity reached 600 souls.
On 28 July 1944, the forces of 40th Regiment, commanded by Agores, entered Parga and massacred 52 men, women and children.
The forces of EOEA under the command of Theodhor Vito, Ilija Kaqo, Hristo Mavrudhi, Hristo Kaqo, Hari Dhiamanti and others, first encircled the town of Filat, then on Saturday morning of 23 September 1944, entered the town. The same day they also entered Spatar. They plundered and seized all of the families, and whatever else they found. On the eve of [September] 23 and the dawn of 24 September 1944, there entered also the forces commanded by Kranja, Strugari and others. As soon as these forces arrived, the massacres began. Forty-seven men, women and children were massacred in Filat, while 157 were killed or missing in Spatar, many of whom had gone there from other villages. All of the young women and girls were abused and raped by Zervas criminals. A few days later the Monarcho-Fascists rounded up all of the men that remained, and following the decision of a kangaroo court, consisting of Koçinja – president, Staropull – prosecuting attorney, and four other members, 47 innocent Albanians were massacred. In Granica near Filat are buried the corpses of 46 persons who were slain with knives, and 45 others on the plain bordering the field of Xhelo Meto.
Other families were wiped out, including parents, children and babies in their cribs. Women and young girls were raped. Hundreds of declarations by those who survived, describe the killings and endless suffering. They make plain the crimes and aims of the Monarcho-Fascists in Chameria.
Here are some examples:
Sanie Bollati of Paramithia was burned alive with gasoline, after her breasts were cut off, and her eyes were plucked out. Ymer Murati was murdered and his body was chopped up in Paramithia.
In the house of Sulo Tari had gathered more than 40 women. Çili Popova from Popova, wearing a military uniform, and a group of soldiers, entered the house, seized the prettiest women and girls and began to rape them in another room. The screams of the girls and the women were deafening. This debauchery continued all night. Seri Fejzo, Fizret Sulo Tare and others, were victims of their baseness.
Hilmi Beqiri of Filat was wounded in front of his family and left there, as the attackers took off. Wanting to shelter him, the family brought him over to the dentist Mavrudhiu. He kept him for a few hours, but later sent word to have him taken away. The family then took him to Stavro Muhaxhiri, after which they went over to Shuaip Metja, where many other families had gathered. The Andartes [Greek irregulars] were informed about this, and they went over and seized him, and after pulling his gold teeth with pliers, killed him. Malo Muho, an 80-year-old man, who had been ailing for four years, was butchered with a hatchet in front of his wife. His brain splattered on the lap of his wife, who gathered it together, and after covering him with a quilt, ran away.
Abdyl Nurqe was seized in Spatar and taken barefooted to Filat, where he was dragged through the streets of the town, and finally killed in front of the house of Nidh Tafoqi.
The family of Lile Rustemi from Sullashi, numbering 16 persons, most of them children, was totally wiped out, without anyone being able to survive.
Xhelal Miniti of Paramithia was beheaded with a bayonet over the body of mufti Hasan Abdullahu.
Sali Muhedini, Abedin Bakos, Muhamet Pronja and Malo Sejdiu had their fingers, nose, tongue, and feet cut off, and while they screamed with pain, Andartes of Zervas sang the song of their commander, and rejoiced as they witnessed this scene of terror. In the end, they hung them with butchers’ grappling irons.
The following is the declaration of Eshref Himi, a resident of Paramithia, concerning the massacres in Paramithia:
“On Tuesday, 27 June 1944, at 7 in the morning, the Greek Monarcho-Fascists entered Paramithia, commanded by Col. Kamora, Major Kranja, Captain Kristo Stavropulli, an attorney; Captain Lefter Strugari, attorney; sub-lieutenant Nikolla Çenos, and others. As soon as they entered the city, the order was given that no one should leave, because no one’s honor, liberty or property would be threatened in any way. Immediately in the afternoon, there began the arrest of men, women and children, and thievery as well. By next morning all the men were murdered.
“After imprisoning me for four days, they let me go, so as to bury the dead. On the site called ‘The Church of Ajorgji’, I was able to identify five of the bodies. The others were beyond recognition, on account of the tortures inflicted on them. The five victims I was able to identify were: Met Qere, Sami Asimi, Mahmut Kupi, Adem Beqiri, Haki Mile. Two days later, they sent me over to ‘Golataj’, near the house of Dhimitër Nikolla, where they had murdered eight people. I could not recognize them, because they had cut them to pieces. All around there were corpses of people. A woman by the name of Sanie Bollati was subjected to frightful tortures and burned alive with gasoline. This tragedy took place on Wednesday, while on Friday morning, her body was removed, covered with a blanket by her mother and two townspeople, and placed in a cellar by order of the Monarcho-Fascists, who would not let anyone to see her. The wretched woman died there five days later. By then, her cadaver was full of maggots.
“All of the things I declare here, I have seen with my own eyes. At first, I hid for five days in the attic, but was arrested by the Monarcho-Fascists and turned over to Major Kranja who, after questioning me briefly, ordered that I be imprisoned. In prison I found 380 persons, including women and children. One hundred twenty of them died of starvation. Four persons and me were in prison for 15 days, after which they transported us to Preveza, and from there to Janina, where we stayed for 40 days. There we were subjected to indescribable tortures. We were freed after the arrival in this town of troops of the EAM [National Liberation Front].”
Dervish Sulo from the village of Spatar in [the district of] Filat, describes the massacres in Spatar as follows:
“In the morning of a Saturday in September, 1944, the entire population gathered in front of the (Spatar) village mosque. The soldiers began seizing and raping women, girls, and even old women. Paçe Çulani, 50 years of age, was raped, her hair was cut and even her ears, and finally she was killed in her own orchard, in the vicinity of Muço. In our house was installed the family of Sako Banushi from Skropjona, which numbered eight women, men, and children. After raping the women, whose breasts were pierced with knives, all were massacred….
“In the house of Damin Muhameti, 5 women and 3 children were killed... In the house of Fetin Muhameti, Hane Isufi and another woman were tortured and raped...
In the house of Dule Sherifi, they cut off the heads of 80-year-old Sulejman Dhimicë and his wife. In the house of Meto Braho, 20 persons, including men, women and children, were burned alive... Kije Nurçia, 70 years of age, was knifed to death... In the vineyard of Zule and the garden of Avdyl Nurçe, I saw 20 people who had been massacred. In the house of Haxhi Latifi, the daughter of Haxhi Gulani was raped, while in the dwelling of Mejdi Meto, Hava Ajshja was raped, and Nano Arapi was both raped and killed.”
According to statistics available to date, the victims and the missing among the Albanian minority in Greece, during the massacres in the years 1944-1945, number 2,877, broken down as follows:
Filat and vicinity, 1,286; Gumenica and vicinity, 192; Paramithia and vicinity, 673; and Margellëç and Parga, 626. This was the fate of all those who were unable to flee Chameria, with the exception of a few women who are today living witnesses of the chilling massacres in Paramithia, Parga, Spatar, and Filat. The words that come from their mouths make clear the naked criminality and barbaric acts, organized by the Greek Monarcho-Fascist reaction in Chameria.
This carnage, inspired by the basest sentiments of chauvinistic and religious hatred, resulted in the displacement of nearly 23,000 Chams, who afterward found shelter in Albania under the most miserable conditions.
A total of 68 villages with over 5,800 houses, were seized, destroyed and burned down.
An account of the damages reveals that the Monarcho-Fascist forces of Zervas seized the following assets left behind [by the Chams] in Chameria: 17,000 heads of sheep and goats, 1,200 heads of cattle, 21,000 quintals of cereals, and 80,000 quintals of [olive] oil; plus the produce of the year 1944-1945, which totaled 11,000,000 kg. of cereals, and 3,000,000 kilograms of [olive] oil. During the exodus, 110,000 sheep and goats, and 2,400 cattle died or were lost.
This shows clearly the economic catastrophe that befell our people, which was forced to take the roads of immigration with only the clothes on their back.
This catastrophe happened because our people, together with the Greek people, fought alongside the EAM, rather than join the camp of the collaborationists who were allied with the occupiers.
Chameria contributed materially and morally to the great Anti-Fascist war. Hundreds of young Chams joined the ranks of ELAS, when EAM sounded the alarm for freedom. With the broadening of the Anti-Fascist war against the German occupiers, the population of Chameria threw itself unreservedly into the war against the occupier, and formed the Fourth Battalion of the 15th Regiment of ELAS. Out of the small population of Chameria, stepped forward over 500 troops who fought with determination against the Nazi-Fascist occupiers and the traitors in the camp of Zervas.
The blood of the national hero, Ali Demi, and of the martyr Bido Sejko; and the blood of martyrs Muharrem Myrtezaj, Ibrahim Hallumi, Hysen Vejseli and others, that was shed together with that of the Greek Partisans at the Pass of Qeramica, bears out this fact.
In Chameria at the end of the war, the troops commanded by General Napoleon Zervas operated in our districts and villages not as liberators, but as executioners and sworn enemies of the Albanian element.
In accordance with the Agreement of Caserta (Sarafis – Zervas) in August, 1944, the troops of the resistance were placed on a common front against the Nazi armies, under a joint command, in designated operational zones. This agreement was violated in Chameria. Zervas troops compromised with the Germans, and attacked our troops and obstructed the activity of the 4th Battalion of the 15th Regiment in the zone of Filat. The operations and massacres in the district of Filat are directly connected with this situation, and in open contradiction to the trust and spirit of cooperation established in Caserta. The last village of Chameria, Koska, which was one of the bases for organizing the resistance forces of the National-Liberation Front in Chameria, was destroyed and burned. It was the final action in the destruction of Chameria.
A Committee of the Cham Anti-Fascist Council was dispatched to Athens on 30 October 1944, to meet with the Greek Government of Papandreou, and protest against the massacres in Chameria, as well as demand that they be condemned. The Government of Papandreou refused to take any measures, or commit itself in any way regarding this matter.
Following the operations of December 1944 and the liberation of Chameria from the Zervist occupation, a portion of our population was repatriated and settled in the district of Filat. Then, on 12 March 1945, government forces of the garrison of Corfu, in violation of the Agreement of Varkiza (February 1945), organized and treacherously carried out the vile massacres in Vanre (Filat). This exposed once again the attitude and policy of the responsible authorities of the Greek Government, concerning the extermination of the Albanian population of Chameria.
In the wake of our immigration to Albania, the democratic Government of Albania gave to our masses boundless material and moral assistance. A fund of 240,000 francs was set aside by the Albanian Government for our people, and all-round efforts have been made to alleviate our deplorable condition.
Responding to this situation, the UNRRA Mission in Albania won approval from its headquarters in Washington [D.C.], to dispense 1,450,000 dollars as immediate relief to the immigrants, in view of our difficult situation.
Even in these conditions, Cham immigrants continued to contribute more and more to the Front. At the Conference of Shalës (Konispol), held at the end of September, 1944, the voice of the Chams in exile was raised strongly in favor of collaboration against the occupier, and the injustices of the Greek Monarcho-Fascists.
At the Congress of Vlora on 23 September 1945, the Cham delegates, who represented all the groups of Cham immigrants in Albania, spoke against the massacres that Greek Monarcho-Fascists had perpetrated among them, and demanded by means of memoranda addressed to the London Conference, an inquiry into their problem, and the condemnation of those responsible for the pointless bloodshed and immeasurable sufferings in Chameria. The Congress concluded with a resolution summarizing all of its proceedings.
While in exile, we have many times addressed appeals to the world, regarding the rights that have been denied us, and asked for repatriation.
On 30 October 1944, the Cham Anti-Fascist Council addressed a protest note to the Greek Government of National Unity, the Mediterranean Chief-of-Staff, the Allied Government, and the Central Committee of EAM, discussing the barbaric actions of the Greek Fascists in Chameria.
On 9 May 1945, the Cham Anti-Fascist Council dispatched to the Military Missions a copy of the telegram addressed to the President of the Conference in San Francisco, concerning the rights of the Chams, based on the Atlantic Charter.
On 27 June 1945, telegrams of protest by the Cham Anti-Fascist Council, against the massacres in Chameria, were addressed to the democratic Government of Albania, the Allied Military Missions including the Soviet, the English, the American, the French, and the Czechoslovak; the Yugoslav Legation, and the Albanians in America, Italy and Bulgaria. A memorandum was addressed to Mr. Hutchinson, Labour [Party] Deputy in Great Britain, on 26 November 1945.
Telegrams were addressed to the General Directorate of UNRRA, by the Cham Anti-Fascist Committee (25 September 1945), asking for aid.
A memorandum was addressed to the Presidency of the Conference of Allied Foreign Ministers in London, by the delegates of the Cham Congress, in September 1945.
A memorandum was addressed to the Assembly of the United Nations in London, by the Cham Anti-Fascist Committee, on 11 January 1946, bringing up again the issue of the massacres, and asking for the rights due [the Chams].
A memorandum was addressed to the United Nations Assembly in New York, by the Cham Anti-Fascist Committee on 25 October 1946 and later.
We are victims of the Monarchist regime that reigns in Greece today. Together with the fraternal Greek people, we are suffering the consequences of the dark terror that was inflicted on them throughout Greece.
For two and a half years now, we roam Albania in misery, away from the Fatherland, while our fertile lands are exploited unjustly by the agents of the Monarcho-Fascists in Chameria.
Our travails in exile have been, and continue to be without bounds. Thousands have perished owing to the situation that has come into being.
Despite our protests and the rights to which we are entitled, we continue to live in exile, while the Greek Government, without any justification, is busy settling alien inhabitants in our Chameria, in order to prevent our return.
In the name of our people, we protest once again against all these things, and present before the Investigating Commission of the UN Security Council, the tragedy that has taken place in Chameria, drawing attention to the barbaric acts carried out with the intention of wiping out the Cham people.
We stress the need for a speedy resolution of the Cham problem, and being persuaded that our demands will be met, we set them forth, as follows:
1. That immediate steps be taken to prevent the settling of foreign elements in our homes,
2. That all Chams be repatriated,
3. That all our properties be returned [to us] and all damages to real and moveable properties of ours be compensated,
4. That assistance be given to rebuild our homes and resettle [our people],
5. That steps be taken to insure the benefits that derive from international treaties and mandates, such as the security of civil, political, and cultural rights, and the security of the person,
6. That all persons responsible for crimes committed be tried and punished.
With our most distinguished considerations:
THE ANTI-FASCIST COMMITTEE OF CHAM IMMIGRANTS
Taho Sejko, Kasëm Demi, Rexhep Çami, Tahir Demi, Vehip Demi, Dervish Dojaka, Hilmi Seiti
[from Agron Fico, Diaspora e Rilindur (Tirana: Albin, 2006), pp. 46-61. Translated from the Albanian by Peter R. Prifti.]
See your hero with nazi!!! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgI0VE0DH0w

iapetoc
19-03-11, 16:01
this is the most scientific reference I have read here..................



Dian that is not for you,

you seem to have a good understanding of Linguistics

But Genetic markers are stronger than Linguistic Markers of origin,

besides may times I post the links,

once more


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/03/y-chromosomes-of-albanian-populations.html)
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html)

plz read them,


Also Read Caplan (kaplan) a greta Albanogist,

I can't find Link

He says that Albanians came from North Bulgaria and south Romania,
Area were Albocense Thracian Tribe lived in Past, that is why modern Albanian has traces of every area it passed,


now about chams they were Turkish Citizens that were not exchange due to language by Greeks,
in WW2 chams join Italian Fasists, and German Nazi, and started war against Greek partisans and Greek citizens,
chams hang Paramythia mayor, and executed many citizens teacher and priests,
that why another cham Zerbas (he was cham) started a war against them, even before germans leave country,
chams in 1923 said that they Greek citizens and did not exchanged with Turkish, and in 1942 revolt and slain Greeks and othar Chams and Armani,
Chams make 2 times betray,
that is why a Cham hunt them back,
cause they make Xilia a nazi organization which even catholic Albanians did not Accept and pope of Rome anathematized,
many chams live in Greece today, and many communist Chums never been heart,
only the Xilia Nazi murderers like Saluka

Neander
19-03-11, 16:02
do you think that the messapian inscription i posted days before here, could have affinity with modern albanian?
yes, of course.

But there is no any complete explanation.

I have found words such as "fertile land" which "ara" both in albanian and messapian, even the gramatic is simmilar.

Neander
19-03-11, 16:03
Also Read Caplan (kaplan) a greta Albanogist,He is the shame of world. You cannot cite such idiots in the sciense forum.

Dian
19-03-11, 16:24
murdered Guma,,
I strongly condemn the action. Who made this deserves to stay in jail and to pay for what has done. Unfortunately the life can not come back.
The police arrested immediately some persons and justice must do the duty.
I do not know the causes of such things, but I can assure you that all Albanians have condemned this act.
The life of person is inestimable in comparison with the tales of mythology, history and opinions. The science and all the data must be in use to improve the life. I respect the life and all the human beings and I don't want to see anyone suffering.
The life comes from the nature and must be taken only by the nature.

Dian
19-03-11, 16:57
there are even some strange connections between sardinia and ancient illyria (albania),
in the ancient vocabulary of pre-roman sardianian populations:
sardo:eni ‘albero del tasso’= albanese enjë ‘albero del tasso’
sardo:alase ‘agrifoglio, pungitopo, gramigna’ (in sardo: laruspinosu ’alloro spinoso’) =albanese halë ‘spina’ halëz ‘spina’
sardo: lothiu ‘fangoso’, topp: Lotzorai, Lothorgo, Loceri, Lotzeri = albanese lloç ‘fanghiglia’
sardo: dròb(b)alu ‘intestino dei suini’ = albanese drobolì ‘intestino’
sardo: urtzula ‘clematide’, top. Urtzulei = albanese hurdh ‘edera’
could it be an I haplogroup connection???
>:smile: Hai letto qualcosa da Alberto G. Areddu?
Ci sono degli articoli qui: http://web.tiscali.it/sardoillirica/sardoillirica/ARCHIVIO%20ILLIRICO.htm
Grazie!
Ciao

iapetoc
19-03-11, 17:24
I strongly condemn the action. Who made this deserves to stay in jail and to pay for what has done. Unfortunately the life can not come back.
The police arrested immediately some persons and justice must do the duty.
I do not know the causes of such things, but I can assure you that all Albanians have condemned this act.
The life of person is inestimable in comparison with the tales of mythology, history and opinions. The science and all the data must be in use to improve the life. I respect the life and all the human beings and I don't want to see anyone suffering.
The life comes from the nature and must be taken only by the nature.

I agree with you, and Albanian state shown a serius respospibility and act,
Nazi's are all over the world,
they have a state under official state everywhere,
simply due to late Balkans wars in Aimos Peninsula became stronger,
but it is different to defend a nation in Arquememnts
Different in a war situation
and Different in Peace and progress time
today in Greece live 600 000 legal and 300 000 illegal Albanian citizens,
with modern economical crisis, unemployment reach 70% in Gr makedonia and 20% in Athens, probably troubles will break
a raise of Greek Nazi from 0,2 to 5 % in Athens in last elections is not a good sign for me,
every day 350 person enter illegal Greece,
mainly from Iraq and Pakistan,
that raises Unemployment to height, criminality boost,
I m not a prophet but soon we will see same in Greece, unless slave-market stops

probably you have heard about Greek crisis,

iapetoc
19-03-11, 18:01
Now about Greek Language

Greek language is not that Mystery,

is a mix language of Thracian and Pelasgic with elements from Egypt and Roman-Latin, and lost Hettit luwan elements very few.

Ancient Greek Language and forms are destroyed enough,
but mostly is a form of ancient Greek, you can search and find that in many Greek dialects except Armani and Arbanitika (Albano-Illyrian)
in fact Aeolic only in Mountain in Thessaly and southg Epirus, in older people, achaic is dead, Doric remains in Grico and Tsakonika and mainly Ionic survived,
After 1955 the con/polis Thraco-Greek idiom and dialect is being teach as the most simple and easy Greek dialect,
Forms Like Pontic Greek and Tsakonica who are more ancient than Koine are not Teached, only in school at late lvls of education and many considered it as a stupid lesson, and prefer to learn English or Francais,
I also Believe that Greek language is destroyed but not dead, Mort.

archaiocapilos
19-03-11, 18:03
y-dna haplogroups are not exclusive to any popoulation so you can have original Slavs and original Illyrians, Thracians even Greeks with y-dna I2a, as it arose thousands of years before any nationality was born. What you can say is that I2a2 is restricted to Eastern Europeans and especially the Balkans so ancient Illyrians should have a lot of it, but they should have even more E-V13 and a lot of J2,R1b too. All modern nations near the area of Illyria (primalry Bosnia,Monte Negro,Croatia,Albania and secondly Greece and North Italy) have some Illyrian ancestry in them and it's not easy to prove who is who here after all. For example Greek Macedonians have 15% I2a2 which could be :
1. Pelasgian Greek ( pre-historic balkanic)
2. Thracian
3. Illyrian
4. Slavic
5. Albanian
But who knows really? I'll say it again haplogroups do not prove ancestry...

archaiocapilos
19-03-11, 18:20
Dian,could Albanian,Greek and Armenian dinarics be connected via Phrygians and haplogroup R1b1b2-L23? Because in your Tree the first three branches are these populations (allthough I'm not sure if Albanian has retained more archaic features, in fact it is a satem language like Armenian while Greek and Phrygian are centum and older attested) and haplogroup R1b is the onlyone that connects these three peoples.

archaiocapilos
19-03-11, 18:21
y-dna haplogroups are not exclusive to any popoulation so you can have original Slavs and original Illyrians, Thracians even Greeks with y-dna I2a, as it arose thousands of years before any nationality was born. What you can say is that I2a2 is restricted to Eastern Europeans and especially the Balkans so ancient Illyrians should have a lot of it, but they should have even more E-V13 and a lot of J2,R1b too. All modern nations near the area of Illyria (primalry Bosnia,Monte Negro,Croatia,Albania and secondly Greece and North Italy) have some Illyrian ancestry in them and it's not easy to prove who is who here after all. For example Greek Macedonians have 15% I2a2 which could be :
1. Pelasgian Greek ( pre-historic balkanic)
2. Thracian
3. Illyrian
4. Slavic
5. Albanian
But who knows really? I'll say it again haplogroups do not prove ancestry...

iapetoc
20-03-11, 00:19
y-dna haplogroups are not exclusive to any popoulation so you can have original Slavs and original Illyrians, Thracians even Greeks with y-dna I2a, as it arose thousands of years before any nationality was born. What you can say is that I2a2 is restricted to Eastern Europeans and especially the Balkans so ancient Illyrians should have a lot of it, but they should have even more E-V13 and a lot of J2,R1b too. All modern nations near the area of Illyria (primalry Bosnia,Monte Negro,Croatia,Albania and secondly Greece and North Italy) have some Illyrian ancestry in them and it's not easy to prove who is who here after all. For example Greek Macedonians have 15% I2a2 which could be :
1. Pelasgian Greek ( pre-historic balkanic)
2. Thracian
3. Illyrian
4. Slavic
5. Albanian
But who knows really? I'll say it again haplogroups do not prove ancestry...


well lets see
Y-Dna has no language, that is truth,
But Y-Dna can help us find areas and movements of people,

if a myth, a report, an archaological evidence exists and can be connected time-line with that devastation, then you have your self a fact,

for example
Pelasgic people,
from the linguistic elements we find that they spoke a Middle East language,
pelasgic culrure is also found in City Of Avaris, and In Syria and Palaistine,
word simmilarity and archaiological evidence show Levant and Italy connection,

Now in that area I2a2 is very low and J" is Enough and ancient,
in Crete in areas were not mentioned as IE invaded we have also High J2,
the remarkable existance of J2 in both areas,
The remarkable small existance of I2 in one area
points that Pelasgic were mainly J Y-DNA dominant and not I2a2 .

By understanding that slowly you find or prove more,
As an example i Give that,
PAiones -Paeoni are mentioned as Thracians, Paeoni lived north of Gr Makedonia and around area of Serres,
according Myth Agrios and Endymion in Area of Agrinio was the Father of Paeon who later moved to Paeoni area,
we see Agrinio (Agrios) has high I YDNA population (almost dominant)
we see Serres has high I YDNA population,
now if secondary marks are connected then the myth is true,
and connects Agrinio with Serres,
Meaning that in Agrinio were Thracians, which for me Thracians unite with Pelasgic and create Greek culture, altough later devastasion happened, traces have been left,


As an example, In USA today have many Ydna, in some areas European Ydna are dominant today,
Does that mean that Indians were Europeans?
No way,
But by mutations and comparisons we find tribal Dominant and ancient Dna,

as an example of Pelasgic I send you to Gennesis in Bible,
'οι υιοι Ιαυαν κατωκησαν τας νησους τας εν Θαρσεις'
were it says Ionic people devastate to the islands in middle of Thracian
(Gennetic maps proves the above J2 in Aegean islands surounded By I2)
so Pelasgic were J2 and Thracian were I2,

now Illyros son of Cadmos, brother of Phoinix -(phoenician)
since cadmus was brother of Phoinix means Pelasgic the other Branch of J people
in Illyria (Albania) we found an Ancient J2b which is simmilar with Greek-Pelasgic,
and Pelasgic words,
the above connection of myth, historical, linguistic, and gennetic tell us that in Albania there is a pelasgic population
as an example I give the word
Erebos Gr Pelasgic
Erevet Alb Pelasgic
Erebu ancient phoenician and semetic


Besides it is another area Illyrii proprie Dicti and another area Illyricum
Croatia Bosna etc


about slavic people 'How yes no' has a qood post about their dominant Ydna,
altough I have my arquments in slavic language,

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26341

Neander
20-03-11, 00:35
as an example of Pelasgic I send you to Gennesis in Bible,
were it says Ionic people devastate to the islands in middle of Thracian
(Gennetic maps proves the above J2 in Aegean islands surounded By I2)
so Pelasgic were J2 and Thracian were I2,
How the Bible knos about pelasgian peoples?

It is because philistine tribe (proto-albanian from Balkans), invade izrael, and make them slaves and gave them some pelasgian elements of culture.

iapetoc
20-03-11, 01:24
and just in case for misunderstandings

Ionia Greece is in Minor Asia
Ionic culture is there,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionia

Ionian islands and Ionian Pelago is another area

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ionian_Sea


it is another area Ionia and Ionic
than Ionion and Ionian

Ionic people are named after Iayan -Yavan-Yunan son of Japeth
Ionian sea by Io (Ιω-ους) Ι think.

julia90
20-03-11, 02:33
from Wikipedia

Genetic studies on Albanians

Various genetic studies have been done on the European population, some of them including current Albanian population, Albanian-speaking populations outside Albania, and the Balkan region as a whole.
One of the first studies was that of Belledi et al. (2000) which suggested that the Albanians share the same ancestry as most other European peoples. A recent study verifies this.
Looking at more recent studies specifically about Y chromosomal lineages, several of the most common lineages in the Balkans vary considerably between the Albanian region and other neighbouring regions[citation needed]. The two haplogroups most strongly associated with Albanian people (E-V13 and J2b) are often considered to have arrived in Europe from the Near East with the Neolithic revolution or late Mesolithic, early in the Holocene epoch. From here in the Balkans, it is thought, they spread to the rest of Europe.
Y haplogroup E1b1b (E-M35) in the modern Balkan population is dominated by its sub-clade E1b1b1a (E-M78) and specifically by the most common European sub-clade of E-M78, E-V13. Most E-V13 in Europe and elsewhere descend from a common ancestor who lived in the late Mesolithic or Neolithic, possibly in the Balkans. The current distribution of this lineage might be the result of several demographic expansions from the Balkans, such as that associated with the Neolithic revolution, the Balkan Bronze Age, and more recently, during the Roman era during the so-called "rise of Illyrican soldiery".
Y haplogroup J in the modern Balkans is mainly represented by the sub-clade J2b (also known as J-M12 or J-M102 for example). Like E-V13, this clade is spread throughout Europe with a seeming centre and origin near Albania.
Common in the Balkans but not specifically associated with Albania and the Albanian language are I-M423 and R1a-M17:
Y haplogroup I is only found in Europe, and may have been there since before the LGM. Several of its sub-clades are found in significant amounts in the Balkans. The specific I sub-clade which has attracted most discussion in Balkan studies currently referred to as I2a2, defined by SNP M423. This clade has higher frequencies to the north of the Albanophone area, in Dalmatia and Bosnia.
Haplogroup R1a is common in Central and Eastern Europe (and is also common in Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent). In the Balkans, it is strongly associated with Slavic areas.
The other most common Y haplogroup in the Balkans has strong associations with many parts of Europe:
Haplogroup R1b is common all over Europe but especially common on the western Atlantic coast of Europe, and is also found in the Middle East and some parts of Africa. In Europe including the Balkans, it tends to be less common in Slavic speaking areas, where R1a is often the most common haplogroup. It shows similar frequencies among Albanians and Greeks at around 20% of the male population, but is much less common in Serbia and Bosnia.
Another study of old Balkan populations and their genetic affinities with current European populations was done in 2004, based on mitochondrial DNA on the skeletal remains of some old Thracian populations from SE of Romania, dating from the Bronze and Iron Age. This study was during excavations of some human fossil bones of 20 individuals dating about 3200–4100 years, from the Bronze Age, belonging to some cultures such as Tei, Monteoru and Noua were found in graves from some necropoles SE of Romania, namely in Zimnicea, Smeeni, Candesti, Cioinagi-Balintesti, Gradistea-Coslogeni and Sultana-Malu Rosu; and the human fossil bones and teeth of 27 individuals from the early Iron Age, dating from the 10th to 7th century B.C. from the Hallstatt Era (the Babadag Culture), were found extremely SE of Romania near the Black Sea coast, in some settlements from Dobrogea, namely: Jurilovca, Satu Nou, Babadag, Niculitel and Enisala-Palanca. After comparing this material with the present-day European population, the authors concluded:
Computing the frequency of common point mutations of the present-day European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9 %), the Albanian (6.3 %) and the Greek (5.8 %) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%).

sir_morphy
20-03-11, 04:10
European population with the Thracian population has resulted that the Italian (7.9 %), the Albanian (6.3 %) and the Greek (5.8 %) have shown a bias of closer genetic kinship with the Thracian individuals than the Romanian and Bulgarian individuals (only 4.2%).

the ending (last two paragraphs) is genial!!!!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/326027/PaleomtDNA-analysis-and-population-genetic-aspects-of-old-Thracian-populations-from-SouthEast-of-Romania

archaiocapilos
21-03-11, 18:23
the high frequency of E-V13 and J2b2 in Albania is propably a founder effect and Albanians are a typical Balkan population. Why should Sqiptars be connected with Illyrians is something I can't understand. They have some Illyrian ancestry just like every other Balkanic population, but it's lower than in Bosnia or Croatia. The linguistic evidence are scarce and definetly not conclusive so there is no way of identifying Albanians with Illyrians or Pelasgians. I believe that they are closer to ancient Dacians/Thracians than anything else (after all they speak a satem language while Illyrian was centum and close to Celtic). Even their looks resemble some modern Romanians.

julia90
21-03-11, 20:17
so they aren't illyrians?
i belive many of them resemble greeks, i see many mediterranean phenotypes on albanians here in italy.
do you think greeks and albanians look similar?

iapetoc
22-03-11, 06:11
I believe the myth and the foundaments,

as I said in Another post,

Ancient illyrians from Illyrii proprie Dicti are sons of Illyros who was son of Kadmos.
Illyricum people, today Bosna Croatia Dalmatia have no connection with ancient Greek name area Illyria but with Roman Illyricum,

Albani from albocense who Maximus of moesia found them first, is the other part,

story of ancient Illyrians who I believe were Pelasgic + Celtic ends with Messapic language at roman times,

story of Arbanites starts at 900 about in Byzantine Army,
specialy in central Balkans Byzantine army would not have Greeks but locals,
at Maniakis story were we first find the word Arbanites (not Illyrians) we know that they were in Maniakis Army in siciky,
Maniakis used many nationalities even Normands arabs etc
that army later when in Con/polis were trouble with Arberuti army leader (Cappadokian Army) Maniakis revolt and gother Arberoi in Arbanon and march to polis,
at Thessaliniki won a Battle but Died,
his Army went back to Arbanon with hope to return to sicily, but they manage to go to Apulia and mainly stayed there, at Arbanon area
the army that remain Create a clash of warriors whic make kings the Progon Family,
Later Normands use them as also Serbs against Epirus,
at 4 Crusade about 1200 latin Rulers like Attica Duke call these warriors to create an army and defense,
until 1200 they have the name Arber and Arbanites,
Arbanites had their own language, Due to Army were each part must learns commanders language, that language with ancient Illyrian and Messapic people who lived there is the proto Form of modern Albanian
after that we find the word Albani, the state of Alba is created by House of Anju,
Anju were famous Catholic Cumans that Hunt the Normands in France (Main) Italy (sicily -taranto)
Anju Famous Cumans are considered the founders of State of Alba in area today Albania.
At that times we find migration and expansion of Catholicism in Albania and Uniate in Makedonia,
Cumans are connected also with Transylvania and area Apulon town Alba Lullia,
that time and later at Barna wars with Hunjiadi, another Cuman, probably a mass migration from Albocense people moved to the new state of Alba of Anju
and accepted Arber language and create modern Albanian Language,
so when Dienekes says about 400-500 new Y-Dna probably is almost near
since Hunjiadi is same time with Castrioti about 1400-1500,
a possibility that a devastastion at times of the myth of Dracul etc is open by I can not prove it, so I just mention it cause fits with Time Dienekes says but I have no Historical proves until now,

with the above we can solve the language turn from Centum to satem,
we can almost be in Time that Dienekes say
we can explain many Linguist that find connection in Albanian language with Balto-slavic,
and we also can explain why in albanian Language we find Aryan words and Pelasgic,
and even Kush Egyptian, which exist also in Greek language,

same Happened in Turkey, in Area of Trebizond empire, city name Ordu,
where a Big Army of Ottomans was dismissed there,
Kotyora change name and create a new form of syntax and language, with centum sounds speaking Turks
words like
tırmık change to termucha
Findik change to Phuntuki
tütün change to ntumani
in local area dialect, and turkish speaking Greeks,
so both to understand

The Linguistic Analysis of Gustav Mayer
proves that in Albanian Language we have words of unknown or dead languages (ancient or unknown to searcher)
proves connection with Aryan - Armenian and midlle asian or Pelasgic-phoenician (Greco-Aryan, Armeno-Aryan, Perso-Aryan)
proves connection with area of Romania and north Bulgaria (latin speaking Thracians and Gorani-Torbesi slavic influence)
also Proves Islamization or Turkish settlers, (turkish occupation)

bosna501
28-03-11, 00:00
All this greatest Anthropologist and other Academics Worldwide said that Bosniaks are a Illyrian Race and Nativ Balkanpeople: Angel, Bounak, Coon, Debetz, Ewing, Gherassimov, Hasluck, Morant, Levin, Oudaltsev, Poulianos, Tovarev, Koumaris, Wilkes, Paul, Hirt, Weigand, Tomashek, Georgiev, Pushcariu and many many others and then we got the Genetic facts from Igenea, Genograpic, Familytreedna and all the other Genetic Results.

zanipolo
28-03-11, 11:34
They did find J in the plains of Veneto, where it was found that 55000 Venetians that migrated to crete in the 13th century and 40000 returned between 1602 and 1670.

BTW, they also found T in the alp of the veneto due to the Cimbri who originated from Jutland Denmark.

Also, the Carni seem to be a mix of Celtic and Venetic, when originally scholars said they where Illyrian. IIRC Carniola region was named after the carni

Q1. Are the Histri ( Istrians) , Illyrian or Venetic ?

Lastly...Roberto Salinas Price wrote in 1995, that the Trojan war was based in Dalmatia and the trojans where illyrians and their neighbors where the Dardanians . Scholars have recently said while Mr. Price is correct that TROY was not where we are told it was, they have doubts that it was in Dalmatia.

Wilkes explained the Illyrians very well in his book but the Hungarian Geza Alfoldy in his book Noricum is easier to read

iapetoc
29-03-11, 04:10
They did find J in the plains of Veneto, where it was found that 55000 Venetians that migrated to crete in the 13th century and 40000 returned between 1602 and 1670.

BTW, they also found T in the alp of the veneto due to the Cimbri who originated from Jutland Denmark.

Also, the Carni seem to be a mix of Celtic and Venetic, when originally scholars said they where Illyrian. IIRC Carniola region was named after the carni

Q1. Are the Histri ( Istrians) , Illyrian or Venetic ?

Lastly...Roberto Salinas Price wrote in 1995, that the Trojan war was based in Dalmatia and the trojans where illyrians and their neighbors where the Dardanians . Scholars have recently said while Mr. Price is correct that TROY was not where we are told it was, they have doubts that it was in Dalmatia.

Wilkes explained the Illyrians very well in his book but the Hungarian Geza Alfoldy in his book Noricum is easier to read

from Greek history we know about Carni and Carniola,
they lived in Caria minorAsia, and worshiped apollo,
they move to Greece to corinth, and from to Carniola,
i am not puting any link cause I am in a Hurry,
remember that in peloponese they worship Carnius Apollo,
even today in Christian Diary, we find the Κρεατοφαγω (τριωδιο)
means dedicated to flesh-meat eaters, cause that means Carni,
Even in Orpheus Religion, the Cretans and the Carians and only they, were allowed to eat meat in Mysteries ceremonies,
the links are in Greek, but if you find about ancient greek mysteries and fests you will find about Carnios Apollo and the Carni eaters in mysteries,
Besides the road is known, from Caria to Carinth-Corinthos, and from there to Carniola,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carneian_festival

how yes no 2
29-03-11, 21:28
They did find J in the plains of Veneto, where it was found that 55000 Venetians that migrated to crete in the 13th century and 40000 returned between 1602 and 1670.

there is no provable link between Adriatic Veneti and people who lived in town of Veneto at times when medieval Venetian republic was created.... there is a gap of like thousand years...... only link is name of Adriatic Veneti preserved in name of town of Veneto that was later centar of republic that was named Venetian republic after it....


BTW, they also found T in the alp of the veneto due to the Cimbri who originated from Jutland Denmark.
interesting, but how on earth can anyone guess haplogroup of Cimbri? no remains, no population is confirmed to origin from them... and T is very exotic haplogroup for Europe...


Also, the Carni seem to be a mix of Celtic and Venetic, when originally scholars said they where Illyrian. IIRC Carniola region was named after the carni
if you look at Slovenes...their name in early medieval period was Carantanians, which may be same tribal name as Carni...
Slovene people are mix of R1a, I2a2 and R1b...


Lastly...Roberto Salinas Price wrote in 1995, that the Trojan war was based in Dalmatia and the trojans where illyrians and their neighbors where the Dardanians . Scholars have recently said while Mr. Price is correct that TROY was not where we are told it was, they have doubts that it was in Dalmatia.

Roberto Salinas Price is philologist and amateur archeologist
he argues that ancestors of modern Greeks came to region much after Trojan war and have adopted epic songs.... he also believes that Iliad was originally written in proto-Slavic language.... hm, regarding that I need to notice that word Homer may be corruption of Gomer... though, Gomer are Cimmerians... and I2a2 probably...

anyway, from his website


It is at the time of the Trojan War (or better yet, at the time of the Fall of Troy, c. 1,200 BC) that the term "Illyrioi" comes into historical being as a collective name for a number of independent albeit closely related tribes of a common Slavic stock.
http://www.homer.com.mx/Time_Line/Trojan_Diaspora.html
http://www.homer.com.mx/index.html

I myself believe that Slavic people origin from Venetic people, and that Illyrians were something else...
but who knows?

e.g Iapetoc thinks proto-Slavic were Thracians
but on his topic about ancient Thracians, I show that Slavic languages are very related to what is thought to be few preserved Illyrian words, while not related at all to Thracian...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367548#post367548

actually, there is lot of confusion between Greek notion of Illyria and Roman province of Illyricum...
Greek notion of Illyria was more or less Albania of today plus parts of Montenegro... and Roman provice of Illyricum is more or less ex-Yugoslavia..... so, I think that good match of the few preserved "Illyrian" words with Slavic and no match with Albanian is in fact due to words probably being from Roman province of Illyricum but not from real Illyria.... Roman empire made same confusion everywhere - Macedonia was shifted north, Raetia was shifted east to include Vindelici.. perhaps that was special tactic to brake national identities....

e.g. if we imagine that USA took over Europe and make USA province of Germany to be Bohemia and north France, province of Poland to be east Germany...province of Hungary to be Slovakia, province of Slovakia to be Czech republic, province of Czech people to be Bavaria....

there are three factors:
1) own tribal name used for foreign people, results in lack of willingness to identify with that tribal name
2) living in a land that is not named after them also has a factor of feeling foreigner, but belonging to Roman empire makes them not foreigners...
3) this is also part of 'divide et impera' strategy...because if for instance people A know that land A is their neighbor, after awhile they will start to believe that that country was originally theirs and that it belongs to them....

if people are forced to use those wrong names for longer period, they will just lose national identity much easier than if they kept tribal names... I guess that is how Roman empire managed to be so successful melting pot in which many national identities were lost...

province of Illyricum was at least partly settled by Venetic people, and we know that Jordanes in 6th century speaks of Slavic people as part of Venethi race....
I think Venethic people were I2a2 with some R1a, Illyrian and Dardanian (and perhaps Thracian) were E-V13 with some R1b and J2

Aconform
29-03-11, 22:51
@how yes no

Interesting reading… wile reading and getting familiar with the genetics I stumbled on this. And thought it related to some of points.

“The Greek branch
Little is known about the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.”

From http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml

It’s in relation to your:

“Roberto Salinas Price is philologist and amateur archeologist
he argues that ancestors of modern Greeks came to region much after Trojan war and have adopted epic songs.... he also believes that Iliad was originally written in proto-Slavic language.... hm, regarding that I need to notice that word Homer may be corruption of Gomer... though, Gomer are Cimmerians... and I2a2 probably...”

I believe that the area of Illyrian has been a cultural and genetic cross road. I don’t believe that the Illyrian tribes were homogenous in culture or genes.

zanipolo
30-03-11, 08:23
there is no provable link between Adriatic Veneti and people who lived in town of Veneto at times when medieval Venetian republic was created.... there is a gap of like thousand years...... only link is name of Adriatic Veneti preserved in name of town of Veneto that was later centar of republic that was named Venetian republic after it....

If as you say there is no link between the venetic and the middle ages Veneti , because there is a gap, then why do you quote Jordanes who lived around 600AD and was 700 years after the Venetics became extinct ?
This is very illogical and confusing.

Its well known that the Venetic lived in the Adriatic lands from around 1100BC to around 100BC. Polybius mentioned that the venetic where nearly all latinized by 120BC.
Modern historians/archaeologists who began excavating in the area from the 1990s has found only about 500 written script from 700BC to 100BC. In 2009 they dismissed Mr. Boj linguistic theory from the 1990.
Current theory from November 2010, is that Venetic was its own language.


interesting, but how on earth can anyone guess haplogroup of Cimbri? no remains, no population is confirmed to origin from them... and T is very exotic haplogroup for Europe...
Myres and Cruciani studies, found that in the Veneto they where U152 out of R1b1b2 branch (equal to 58% of their R1b1b2). From other studies, they estimate North Italy's R1b1b2 at exactly 50%. This results in North Italy having 29% U152 out of their total y-dna.
North Italy's neighbors to the north, west, and south have the 2nd highest frequencies of U152 in Europe, but they're all much lower than North Italy's.

Veneto's eastern neighbor, Slovenia, has 5% U152

Explain this from August 2010 studies.


BTW Austria has U106



i
f you look at Slovenes...their name in early medieval period was Carantanians, which may be same tribal name as Carni...
Slovene people are mix of R1a, I2a2 and R1b...You do realise that when people migrate, there vocabuary is not complete and they accept the existing peoples words. CARNIOLA was named after the carni tribe , a mix of celtic and venetic peoples.

people also have a habit of changing place names, eg, Dubrovnic was Ragusa for over 1000 years.




Roberto Salinas Price is philologist and amateur archeologist
he argues that ancestors of modern Greeks came to region much after Trojan war and have adopted epic songs.... he also believes that Iliad was originally written in proto-Slavic language.... hm, regarding that I need to notice that word Homer may be corruption of Gomer... though, Gomer are Cimmerians... and I2a2 probably...
To finalise this , mr. Crowe recently wrote that Troy was pergamun in his recently written book, Troy: The great Deception



I myself believe that Slavic people origin from Venetic people, and that Illyrians were something else...
but who knows?You mispelt again, its Venetic for adriatic tribe
Venedic for baltic tribe west of the Oder river
And the veneti in brittany and NW ireland


e.g Iapetoc thinks proto-Slavic were Thracians
but on his topic about ancient Thracians, I show that Slavic languages are very related to what is thought to be few preserved Illyrian words, while not related at all to Thracian...
Is this BC or AD theory?


actually, there is lot of confusion between Greek notion of Illyria and Roman province of Illyricum...
Greek notion of Illyria was more or less Albania of today plus parts of Montenegro... and Roman provice of Illyricum is more or less ex-Yugoslavia..... so, I think that good match of the few preserved "Illyrian" words with Slavic and no match with Albanian is in fact due to words probably being from Roman province of Illyricum but not from real Illyria.... Roman empire made same confusion everywhere - Macedonia was shifted north, Raetia was shifted east to include Vindelici.. perhaps that was special tactic to brake national identities..You are again quoting the period at the end of the Roman Empire. Even in the great illyrian revolt, from 6 to 9 AD the Roman knew of no slavs south of the Danube. Illyricum was huge, supplied troops for the spanish Frontier and at the end, some illyrian families ended up Emperors of Rome...



province of Illyricum was at least partly settled by Venetic people, and we know that Jordanes in 6th century speaks of Slavic people as part of Venethi race....
I think Venethic people were I2a2 with some R1a, Illyrian and Dardanian (and perhaps Thracian) were E-V13 with some R1b and J2Either as I say the adriatic Venetics became fully extinct by 100BC , then how you got the DNA markings seems very very wrong and incorrect , OR the explanation is that the "modern " veneti which founded Venice in 400AD and are the Veneti present in Italy now and Have R1b with U152 markings as there majority DNA, I find your reasoning very Illogical.

And I again state, where do you get these maps that show istria having Venetic language and Istria having illyrian language. Which is correct...they are your maps that you placed in this forum.

how yes no 2
31-03-11, 23:09
If as you say there is no link between the venetic and the middle ages Veneti , because there is a gap, then why do you quote Jordanes who lived around 600AD and was 700 years after the Venetics became extinct ?This is very illogical and confusing.

Its well known that the Venetic lived in the Adriatic lands from around 1100BC to around 100BC. Polybius mentioned that the venetic where nearly all latinized by 120BC.

Jordanes was official historian of Roman empire...he had access to sources of knowledge that are not available now... he is also a person of Gothic origin and Goths did live in close neigborhood of these people for long time...

If you discard his claims that early Slavic people are from populous race of Veneti, we can as well discard any claim ever made by any historian about people living in his lifetime ....

besides I never calimed that Veneti in 6th century AD from whom Slavic people origin and Adriatic Veneti from year 100 BC spoke same language... it is about same race... and that race is I2a people in my opinion....

I base this on many clues e.g. on fact that I2a* we find exactly and only in areas of Celtic Veneti and of Adriatic Veneti...

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/I2aHapGroup/default.aspx?section=ymap

note that this is about distant common origin, not necesserilly about recent one...idea is that the tribal name is in case of Veneti carried with genetics flow while languages were changing through history....




Modern historians/archaeologists who began excavating in the area from the 1990s has found only about 500 written script from 700BC to 100BC. In 2009 they dismissed Mr. Boj linguistic theory from the 1990.
Current theory from November 2010, is that Venetic was its own language.

again, genetics and languages have different timeline...
what is in development of languages one life ago maps to what was in genetics yesterday....



[FONT=Verdana]Myres and Cruciani studies, found that in the Veneto they where U152 out of R1b1b2 branch (equal to 58% of their R1b1b2). From other studies, they estimate North Italy's R1b1b2 at exactly 50%. This results in North Italy having 29% U152 out of their total y-dna.
North Italy's neighbors to the north, west, and south have the 2nd highest frequencies of U152 in Europe, but they're all much lower than North Italy's.

Veneto's eastern neighbor, Slovenia, has 5% U152

Explain this from August 2010 studies.


well, this doesnot look at all like Veneti spread....
in Italy more likely cause are Etruscans and from them derived Raetians who spread/migrated to Swiss from north Italy ... Veneti were more to the east...

http://www.u152.org/images/stories/u152_frequency_map_2010_13_small.png

I explain the way I see origin of U152 in thread
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26361



You do realise that when people migrate, there vocabuary is not complete and they accept the existing peoples words. CARNIOLA was named after the carni tribe , a mix of celtic and venetic peoples.

so?
those people might have undergone language shift to Slavic... but they can still be core of genetics of Slovene or Caranthanians....

languages play no major role in genetic origin.... they are changed by genetic tribes like socks by humans...

well, just 2500 years ago Latin was spoken only in small village called Rome, now you have derived languages spoken in Romania, Italy, Spain, Portugal, France, latin America... do you claim that all those people genetically origin from a village of Rome from 2500 years ago? it is ridiculous to use languages as argument to deny genetic relation...



You mispelt again, its Venetic for adriatic tribe
Venedic for baltic tribe west of the Oder river
And the veneti in brittany and NW ireland
...
Is this BC or AD theory?
BC theory...

about common origin of people sharing same tribal name
Venethi, Venedi, Veneti, Wends (arhaic Germanic for all for Slavic people, now used for Sorbs mostly) , Venäläiset (name of Russians in Finish)..is clearly all the same tribal name...

question is whether there is a shared genetic origin that spread that name, and what Y-DNA haplogroup would it be? I think it is I2a...

I do not infer language continuity between Adriatic Veneti and later Veneti tribes, but I also don't exclude language continuity... when looking at genetic origin, languages can be misleading clue...
in case of Adriatic Veneti we do not really know too much about the language.... I can also imagine a scenario in which Veneti were the tribe that spread PIE language in Europe and that different branches of IE languages are due to mix of PIE carried by Veneti with local languages... I wonder about this as the tribal name is related to Italic, Celtic, Germanic, Slavic, Sarmatian peoples...
in haplogroups this spread across different IE languages and cultures is noticeable with different branches of I2a haplogroup....


You are again quoting the period at the end of the Roman Empire. Even in the great illyrian revolt, from 6 to 9 AD the Roman knew of no slavs south of the Danube. Illyricum was huge, supplied troops for the spanish Frontier and at the end, some illyrian families ended up Emperors of Rome...
Slavic name only appears in 5th century...
which doesnot mean that the same people didnot have different tribal names before... Vistula Veneti fit their later position and claims of Jordanes...



Either as I say the adriatic Venetics became fully extinct by 100BC , then how you got the DNA markings seems very very wrong and incorrect , OR the explanation is that the "modern " veneti which founded Venice in 400AD and are the Veneti present in Italy now and Have R1b with U152 markings as there majority DNA, I find your reasoning very Illogical.
again, U152 clearly doesnot origin from Veneti..
look at the map...


And I again state, where do you get these maps that show istria having Venetic language and Istria having illyrian language. Which is correct...they are your maps that you placed in this forum.

don't shoot the messanger...

I am lazy to search for maps in my posts, but both maps are probably from wikipedia, as I often use maps from there....

I do not care who Histri were...
but their origin is disputed...
there are clues that neigbouring Liburnians were Venetic people...
whole Illyricum also had lot of Pannonian tribes...
real Illyrians one shoul;d search in Greek notion of Illyria (Albania plus parts of Montenegro), not in Roman province of Illyricum...

zanipolo
01-04-11, 07:59
Facts are
1. Original people in the Veneto are the Eugenai - G2a
they where pushed into the alps by the venetic around 1200BC

2. One of the "seven daughters of eve" the K was centred in the Veneto .

3. Historical evidence suggests that following the great Trojan wars in the early centuries B.C.E, the Paphlagonians emigrated from modern-day northern Turkey (near modern Sinope), along the Adriatic and eventually into the Veneto. According to the Paphlagonia Theory, these peoples are the ancestors of modern-day Venetians.
The historical evidence that supports the Paphlagonia Theory is ancient. Both Livy and Homer provide literary references that support the Paphlagonia migration. As an ancient Roman historian, Livy kept historical records for much of Italy during the time of Augustus. According to Livy, a population called the Enetae emigrated from their homeland, in Paphlagonia, following the death of their King Pylaemenes in a revolution during the Trojan wars47. The Enetians, explained Livy, migrated westward along the Adriatic coast and eventually settled in the region that constitutes modern-day Veneto.

4. the Lusatia Theory is relatively new. It was first pioneered by Slovene author Jozko Savli. Through his research in the mid 1980s, Savli attempted to prove that Slovenes were not descendants of the Slavs, but in fact descendants of the Veneti. Savli’s search came to be known as the Venetic-Theory. His research was radical, as it evolved from just explaining the ancestors of Slovenes to explaining the ancestors of all of Europe. Savli explains that most current-day European populations are descendants of the Veneti, a central European population that emigrated from Lusatia across Europe to places such as Brittany, Austria, and Italy, among others. He attempts to associate each of the three distinct ethnic Veneti groups; the Adriatic Veneti, Vistula (Baltic) Veneti, and the Veneti of Gaul.
In short, Savli suggested that the Veneti were originally an ethic population located in the regions where modern-day Poland, Germany, and the Czech Republic intersect.



5. In 2009, historian Stjepan Pantelic, argues that Slovenes were not descendants of the Slavs. His research stemmed from Savli’s, in areas where Pantelic felt Savli’s theory was underdeveloped. Pantelic rejects the Paphlagonia Theory and instead claims that the Veneti came, not from eastern, but western Europe. According to Pantelic, “the Eastern Slavs are the most recent Slavs and there is no continuous record linking them to the Veneti mentioned at Troy. Following Pantelic’s logic, the ancient Veneti only could have come from the basin of the Danube River. Pantelic suggests that the Veneti where indigenous people, not of Paphlagonia, but from Carinthia in Southern Austria.


6. Many academics reject Savli’s theory, especially Roland Steinarcher, an Austrian historian. Steinarch claims that the Adriatic Veneti, Vistual Veneti, and Veneti of Gaul, are three distinct, unrelated populations”.


7. According to Strabo, an ancient Greek historian, modern-day Venetians are descendents not from Paphlagonia, nor Lusatia, but in fact, Brittany. Like Steinarcher, Strabo claimed that the Enetae/Veneti translation was incorrect and that the Eneti did not establish the nation of Veneti, as Livy claimed. Instead, Strabo suggest that the Veneti of Gaul, an ancient population of northeast France (modern-day Brittany) migrated to the Veneto and are the ancestors of modern-day Venetians. The Veneti from brittany arrived in the adriatic around 1000 B.C.E and where joined by the remaining Veneti "according to Caesar's Historian" after Caesar enslaved the Veneti of Gaul after his Gallic war.

8. In late 2010 , Dna conclusively had Veneti of the adriatic as R1b U-152

It seems to me you are solely basing your Venetic theory on Savli's line of which nearly all academics have dismissed.
You dismiss Homer and Livy, Polybius, Strabo, Pantelic, Wilkes, Alfoldy and Steinarcher to name a few and yet you champion Jordanes, a goth born in Pannonia who only mentions the slavs because he was one of the first to see them cross the Danube in 600 AD

What should be proved with tests was what was the Dna of the Paphlagonians and the brittany Veneti to dismiss claims from these areas.

To conclude , the 400 samples of the veneti are again being analysed for a second opinion in Barcelona. But then what will we have , modern veneti dna or ancient Venetic dna?

BTW i did find this site, might be of some value?
http://indo-european-migrations.scienceontheweb.net/map_of_indo_european_migrations.html

how yes no 2
01-04-11, 22:36
Facts are
Facts?
what do you know about facts?



1. Original people in the Veneto are the Eugenai - G2a
they where pushed into the alps by the venetic around 1200BC

where does this data come from? some forum?
quote any scientific paper that claims such a thing....



2. One of the "seven daughters of eve" the K was centred in the Veneto .
yes, dear Kate...she had that room on third floor in center of Veneto...



3. Historical evidence suggests that following the great Trojan wars in the early centuries B.C.E,
early centuries B.C.E.?


the Paphlagonians emigrated from modern-day northern Turkey (near modern Sinope), along the Adriatic and eventually into the Veneto. According to the Paphlagonia Theory, these peoples are the ancestors of modern-day Venetians.

For your information, this historical evidence is from Herodotous who realize that Eneti were mentioned by Homer, but not afterwards... so, he asks around and gets answer that they were kicked out from Asia minor after joint campagn they had with Cimmerians.... he than concludes that from Thrace they settled Adriatic coast and are in his time called Veneti...

My theory is that both Cimmerians and Veneti were dominantly I2a people...
and while Veneti were completely kremoved from Asia minor, Cimmerians also known as Gomer/Gimmru..later settled Cappadocia... Cimmerians are my explanbation for I2a island in Asia minor...


The historical evidence that supports the Paphlagonia Theory is ancient. Both Livy and Homer provide literary references that support the Paphlagonia migration. As an ancient Roman historian, Livy kept historical records for much of Italy during the time of Augustus. According to Livy, a population called the Enetae emigrated from their homeland, in Paphlagonia, following the death of their King Pylaemenes in a revolution during the Trojan wars47. The Enetians, explained Livy, migrated westward along the Adriatic coast and eventually settled in the region that constitutes modern-day Veneto.
yes, that is more or less what I also claim.... that Paphlagonia Eneti gave are related to Antes, Adriatic, Celtic and Vistula Veneti...
however, I think that some Veneti peoples lived in Europe much before Eneti were kicked out of Asia minor...


4. the Lusatia Theory is relatively new. It was first pioneered by Slovene author Jozko Savli. T...

5. In 2009, historian Stjepan Pantelic, argues that Slovenes were not descendants of the Slavs. ...


I don't really care about theories of those biased quasi-historians....



6. Many academics reject Savli’s theory, especially Roland Steinarcher, an Austrian historian. Steinarch claims that the Adriatic Veneti, Vistual Veneti, and Veneti of Gaul, are three distinct, unrelated populations”.
another biased quasi-historian


7. According to Strabo, an ancient Greek historian, modern-day Venetians are descendents not from Paphlagonia, nor Lusatia, but in fact, Brittany. Like Steinarcher, Strabo claimed that the Enetae/Veneti translation was incorrect and that the Eneti did not establish the nation of Veneti, as Livy claimed. Instead, Strabo suggest that the Veneti of Gaul, an ancient population of northeast France (modern-day Brittany) migrated to the Veneto and are the ancestors of modern-day Venetians. The Veneti from brittany arrived in the adriatic around 1000 B.C.E and where joined by the remaining Veneti "according to Caesar's Historian" after Caesar enslaved the Veneti of Gaul after his Gallic war.


8. In late 2010 , Dna conclusively had Veneti of the adriatic as R1b U-152
where did you read it..on some forum?
if you want to be serious quote name of scientific paper that claims there....
I couldnot find any...


It seems to me you are solely basing your Venetic theory on Savli's line of which nearly all academics have dismissed.
it seems to me that you are prone to make very wild assumptions about facts...

for record, this is first time I even hear about that Savli person....
I have my own theories that are much more advanced than the ones from some biased Slovene quasi-historian...


You dismiss Homer and Livy, Polybius, Strabo, Pantelic, Wilkes, Alfoldy and Steinarcher to name a few and yet you champion Jordanes, a goth born in Pannonia who only mentions the slavs because he was one of the first to see them cross the Danube in 600 AD
I will not spend words on modern interpreters of history, as they are as credible historic sources as you or yellow press.. ....

but where and why I dismiss Livy, Polybius, Strabo?
quote my sentence, quote theirs...

here is my thread about Veneti
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26066

in fact I open the thread with Strabo's statement of Veneti...his claims are my starting point...



What should be proved with tests was what was the Dna of the Paphlagonians and the brittany Veneti to dismiss claims from these areas.
but no Veneti stayed in Paphlagonia... they were kicked out.. remember?
read Strabo...



To conclude , the 400 samples of the veneti are again being analysed for a second opinion in Barcelona. But then what will we have , modern veneti dna or ancient Venetic dna?
can you quote any scientific paper on topic?
I am really not interested in forum level disinformations....
it is extremly clear from spread of U152 that it is not about Veneti...



BTW i did find this site, might be of some value?
nope...

zanipolo
02-04-11, 08:36
http://dna-forums.org/index.php?/blog/2/entry-72-new-papers-on-r1b/

check links inside of scripts

http://www.wpi.edu/Pubs/E-project/Available/E-project-010510-121008/unrestricted/Origins_Report_Final.pdf


http://www.worldfamilies.net/surnames/nolan/
from above
http://img185.imageshack.us/img185/9885/u152snptested.gif

i have more , i will sent on

http://www.familytreedna.com/public/R1b-U152/default.aspx?section=results


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_%28Y-DNA%29#R1b1a2_.28R-M269.29
see half way down to the numbers which say 60% plus for the north-east Italy ( ladins)
Ladins reside only in the veneto , speak modern venetian ( as well as Italian ) , but also can speak ancient venetian, some say Ladin could be old venetic or euganai or even a part of Friulian, ( which is also part of the three venezia's

zanipolo
02-04-11, 09:51
My theory on the illyrians is based on Hittite text which I found a book on.

Hittites had allies and the Egyptians recorded them after Kadesh as the "Drdny" (book by Gurney, The Hittites). Once again, no other peoples resemble this name except for the Dardanians of Illyria.
Other evidence of the Illyrian origins in Asia Minor were mentioned earlier with the connection of the Illyri-Italic Veneti tribe and the Eneti of Paphlagonia in Asia Minor. Likewise, the Illyrian tribe, the Bryges, who once took the city of Epidamnus upon returning from Phyrgia, and the Phyrgians of
This argument is lastly supported by the arrival of the Illyrians (more appropriately, proto-Illyrians as "Illyrianization" did not begin until their settlement in southeastern Europe) in the Balkans coinciding with (twelfth century BC) the fall of Troy, the demise of the Hittite kingdom as well as the historic Bronze Age Collapse (see Robbins, Collapse of the Bronze Age ... ) which resulted in the large-scale movement of peoples into Europe (Dardanians? Phyrgians? Eneti?).

Its the only possible explanation for large movements of people around 1200BC, and take not , the etrusans also say, they came into Italy via the north as they too where from anatolia, they where the Lydians.

The only thing I need to know is , where they a sub-branch of the Hittites.

Note: Eupedia has Hittite dna linked with Italic dna in their data

how yes no 2
02-04-11, 14:17
For your information, this historical evidence is from Herodotous who realize that Eneti were mentioned by Homer, but not afterwards...
what I said above is not really correct...
I told there memory I had about what Strabo said.... but I used Herodotous by mistake...probably because Strabo mention him in that part of text...


see half way down to the numbers which say 60% plus for the north-east Italy ( ladins)
Ladins reside only in the veneto ,
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Ladinoannomilleedoggi.pnghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/30/Ladin.png/450px-Ladin.png




speak modern venetian ( as well as Italian ) , but also can speak ancient venetian, some say Ladin could be old venetic or euganai or even a part of Friulian, ( which is also part of the three venezia's
they can also origin from Raetians...
is there DNA testing of speakers of Ladin language?


Hittites had allies and the Egyptians recorded them after Kadesh as the "Drdny" (book by Gurney, The Hittites). Once again, no other peoples resemble this name except for the Dardanians of Illyria.
Drdny is same tribal name as Dardanians....

but than you sneak in Dardanians of Illyria, Dardanians are not the same as Illyrians...Dardanians may have lived in part of Illyria...



Other evidence of the Illyrian origins in Asia Minor were mentioned earlier with the connection of the Illyri-Italic Veneti tribe and the Eneti of Paphlagonia in Asia Minor. Likewise, the Illyrian tribe, the Bryges, who once took the city of Epidamnus upon returning from Phyrgia, and the Phyrgians of
Briges went other way around - from Balkan to Asia minor where they became Phrygians... and I think they also went back to Europe and became Franks.or Fruzi in Serbo-Croat


This argument is lastly supported by the arrival of the Illyrians (more appropriately, proto-Illyrians as "Illyrianization" did not begin until their settlement in southeastern Europe) in the Balkans coinciding with (twelfth century BC) the fall of Troy, the demise of the Hittite kingdom as well as the historic Bronze Age Collapse (see Robbins, Collapse of the Bronze Age ... ) which resulted in the large-scale movement of peoples into Europe (Dardanians? Phyrgians? Eneti?).
Its the only possible explanation for large movements of people around 1200BC, and take not , the etrusans also say, they came into Italy via the north as they too where from anatolia, they where the Lydians.


12th century BC is indeed time of big movements...
bronze age collapse when many middle east civilizations perished...

but I always thought that the flow of invaders in bronze age collapse went from east Europe towards middle East...

Etruscans did move out of Lydia due to hunger....search for that in Herodotous work....there was 18 year long volcanic winter in that period that caused hunger...





The only thing I need to know is , where they a sub-branch of the Hittites.
Note: Eupedia has Hittite dna linked with Italic dna in their data

Hittite's principal God (that can be matched to Zeus in Greece) is called Tarhun, which is identical name to name of Slavic principal God Perun and Baltic principal God Perkūnas...

pre-Hettite people are Hatti, and same God is in their language Taru, which is dientical to principle God of Germanic people Thor


Teshub (also written Teshup or Tešup; cuneiform dIM) was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun (with variant stem forms Tarhunt, Tarhuwant, Tarhunta), although this name is likely from the Proto-Indo-European Perkūnas[1] or the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer.[2][3][4]
He is depicted holding a triple thunderbolt and a weapon, usually an axe (often double-headed) or mace. The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs. In the Hurrian schema, he was paired with Hebat the mother goddess; in the Hittite, with the sun goddess of Arinna—a cultus of great antiquity which may ultimately derive from the bull god and mother goddess worshipped at Çatalhöyük in the Neolithic era.
...
According to Hittite myth, one of his greatest acts was the slaying of the dragon Illuyanka.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

if you want to search for Illyrians in Hittite myths, I suggest dragon Illuyanka's followers, as Illyrians are related with snakes...

iapetoc
03-04-11, 04:07
My theory on the illyrians is based on Hittite text which I found a book on.

Hittites had allies and the Egyptians recorded them after Kadesh as the "Drdny" (book by Gurney, The Hittites). Once again, no other peoples resemble this name except for the Dardanians of Illyria.
Other evidence of the Illyrian origins in Asia Minor were mentioned earlier with the connection of the Illyri-Italic Veneti tribe and the Eneti of Paphlagonia in Asia Minor. Likewise, the Illyrian tribe, the Bryges, who once took the city of Epidamnus upon returning from Phyrgia, and the Phyrgians of
This argument is lastly supported by the arrival of the Illyrians (more appropriately, proto-Illyrians as "Illyrianization" did not begin until their settlement in southeastern Europe) in the Balkans coinciding with (twelfth century BC) the fall of Troy, the demise of the Hittite kingdom as well as the historic Bronze Age Collapse (see Robbins, Collapse of the Bronze Age ... ) which resulted in the large-scale movement of peoples into Europe (Dardanians? Phyrgians? Eneti?).

Its the only possible explanation for large movements of people around 1200BC, and take not , the etrusans also say, they came into Italy via the north as they too where from anatolia, they where the Lydians.

The only thing I need to know is , where they a sub-branch of the Hittites.

Note: Eupedia has Hittite dna linked with Italic dna in their data


well seems yoy have not interest Greek mythology,

1 Dardanes sons of Dardanos who build Troy

In Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology), Dardanus (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Δάρδανος, English translation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language): "burned up", from the verb δαρδάπτω (dardapto) to wear, to slay, to burn up)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanus#cite_note-0) was a son of Zeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) and Electra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra_%28Pleiad%29), daughter of Atlas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_%28mythology%29), and founder of the city of Dardania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Asia_minor%29) on Mount Ida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ida) in the Troad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troad).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanus

So There is a Dardania outside Illyria,
In minor Asia,

so plz Becarefull cause that Dardania has no connection with illyria,

2 that is is Greek, A tribe live in North Greece named as Darnakes
Η καθιέρωση χρήσεως της λέξης δάρι προήλθε, πιστεύουμε, σαν επακόλουθο των Η καθιέρωση χρήσεως της λέξης δάρι προήλθε, πιστεύουμε, σαν επακόλουθο των εκστρατειών των Περσών και ιδιαίτερα του Μεγαβάζου, στρατηγού του Δαρείου, ο οποίος εξετέλεσε την εντολή του Δαρείου, για τον εξανδραποδισμό των Σιροπαιόνων.

http://www.darnakas.gr/darnakasonomasia.htm

the name Darnakes is after Megabaz-os, Persian Satrap, who executed Darius order to slain Siropaiones, a Thracian tribe, the Darinaroi or Darinakoi ->Darnakes are the remants of that,
their land was the Boarder among Makedonians and Persians before Phillip
they have slavic words,
they have Thracian words,
but mostly 70% Greek

3rd is the Illyrian Dardania, who are considered Illyro-Thracians, and not Illyrians,
from Illyria proprie Dicti, or Illyricum, they were allinces with Illyrians, but they spoke Thracian,

so can you tell me when Gurney sais Dardania Hettits why not mentioned the 2 before and why especially the 3rd,
simply Gurney is wrong, if connecting Dardania with Illyria,
the most posiible is that he mentions Dardania the old Troy, the Illawassa,

zanipolo
03-04-11, 06:29
well seems yoy have not interest Greek mythology,

1 Dardanes sons of Dardanos who build Troy

In Greek mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_mythology), Dardanus (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Δάρδανος, English translation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_language): "burned up", from the verb δαρδάπτω (dardapto) to wear, to slay, to burn up)[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanus#cite_note-0) was a son of Zeus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zeus) and Electra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electra_%28Pleiad%29), daughter of Atlas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_%28mythology%29), and founder of the city of Dardania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardania_%28Asia_minor%29) on Mount Ida (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mount_Ida) in the Troad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troad).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanus

So There is a Dardania outside Illyria,
In minor Asia,

so plz Becarefull cause that Dardania has no connection with illyria,

2 that is is Greek, A tribe live in North Greece named as Darnakes
Η καθιέρωση χρήσεως της λέξης δάρι προήλθε, πιστεύουμε, σαν επακόλουθο των Η καθιέρωση χρήσεως της λέξης δάρι προήλθε, πιστεύουμε, σαν επακόλουθο των εκστρατειών των Περσών και ιδιαίτερα του Μεγαβάζου, στρατηγού του Δαρείου, ο οποίος εξετέλεσε την εντολή του Δαρείου, για τον εξανδραποδισμό των Σιροπαιόνων.

http://www.darnakas.gr/darnakasonomasia.htm

the name Darnakes is after Megabaz-os, Persian Satrap, who executed Darius order to slain Siropaiones, a Thracian tribe, the Darinaroi or Darinakoi ->Darnakes are the remants of that,
their land was the Boarder among Makedonians and Persians before Phillip
they have slavic words,
they have Thracian words,
but mostly 70% Greek

3rd is the Illyrian Dardania, who are considered Illyro-Thracians, and not Illyrians,
from Illyria proprie Dicti, or Illyricum, they were allinces with Illyrians, but they spoke Thracian,

so can you tell me when Gurney sais Dardania Hettits why not mentioned the 2 before and why especially the 3rd,
simply Gurney is wrong, if connecting Dardania with Illyria,
the most posiible is that he mentions Dardania the old Troy, the Illawassa,

The only thing we disagree on is you say the dardanian where greek from anatolia and I say they where illyrian from anatolia.

my theory is based on books from the hittites arcives/letters

so in around 1200BC, the hittites, eneti, illyrians, etruscans ( lydians), and others all fled Anatolia, through thrace, through northern Greece, and dispersed allong the adriatic lands with the etruscans residings in lombardia and tuscany

iapetoc
03-04-11, 12:30
The only thing we disagree on is you say the dardanian where greek from anatolia and I say they where illyrian from anatolia.

my theory is based on books from the hittites arcives/letters

so in around 1200BC, the hittites, eneti, illyrians, etruscans ( lydians), and others all fled Anatolia, through thrace, through northern Greece, and dispersed allong the adriatic lands with the etruscans residings in lombardia and tuscany

well we still dont'know about Hetit Y-Dna, or as long I know,
I read somwhere probably G or R1b

Acoording the language,
Etruscans were Not Hittits, they spoke Pelasgic, Non IE,
Etruscans Minoan Phillistines Illyrians of proprie and part of Greeks are considered Pelasgic not Hettit,
so 2 of your claims are wrong,
the only similar with Hettit are Thracians at least Linguistic

about Carniola, many times I said about a minor asian branch that travel From Caria to Corinth to Carniola,
religious Carni means meat eaters in Homeric,
at some ancient Mysteries ceremonies only Cretans and some Carians allowed to eat meat.
there is connection of Caria with Corinthia with Carniola, so Carni people do not travel by land but by sea,
Veneti are the only tribe that travel by foot all the way from minor asia to Istria and Dunab,

so be more becarefull, cause History and linguistic markers, are not proving the one you say,

Illyrians Proprie descent from Pelasgians from before 2000 Bc,
Etruscans are pelasgians, and archaiology proves that were there almost same time with Minoans, probably before 3000 Bc (Pyrgi)
about Veneti the time is much younger than the 2 above,
in fact Veneti push Vryges and they move to minor Asia

now books about Hettites and letters?
only few words exist, and their alphabet is the Akkadian,
so no Connection of Etruscans (Pelasgic-Phoenician) or Illyrians (Greek-Messapic)
with Hettites, in fact I believe they were G2a although I can not deny a R1b,
probably your theory is another Nationalistic claim just for the people, for inner consum,


and something else,

I don't say the Dardanians were Greek form Anatolia,
I gave you Drdn with your Hettit aproach,
probably Hettits are mentioning the Dardania of Troy
Pelasgic area, not Hettit area, and not the Dardania of Thrace, or the Illyro-Thracian Dardania

so plz dont put words in my mouth.
in fact at that time the only Greeks were the Epirotans Γραικοι.

seems like you Deny the Pelasgians

how yes no 2
03-04-11, 22:28
The only thing we disagree on is you say the dardanian where greek from anatolia and I say they where illyrian from anatolia.

my theory is based on books from the hittites arcives/letters

so in around 1200BC, the hittites, eneti, illyrians, etruscans ( lydians), and others all fled Anatolia, through thrace, through northern Greece, and dispersed allong the adriatic lands with the etruscans residings in lombardia and tuscany

in my opinion, Dardanians are neither Greek nor Illyrians...
they are separate people...

I agree that there was massive settlement wave from Asia minor to Europe... but I do not relate it to bronze age collapse... I think that bronze age collapse was wave of invaders going in other way from north to south...from east Euroasia (Thrace or Caucasus?) towards Egypt

Etruscans left Lydia due to 18 year long hunger.... not related to bronze age collapse, but to volcanic winter due to Hecka-3 eruption
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hekla_3_eruption



The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia [i.e., Etruria] , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

look now at chronology

1197 BC: Ramses III of Egypt repels attacks by northern invaders (the "Sea-Peoples").
1194 BC: The beginning of the legendary Trojan War.
1186 BC: End of the Nineteenth dynasty of Egypt, start of the Twentieth Dynasty.
April 24, 1184 BC: Traditional date for the fall of Troy, Asia Minor to the Mycenaeans and their allies. This marks the end of the Trojan War of Greek mythology.
1180 BC: Collapse of Hittite power in Anatolia with the destruction of their capital Hattusa.
April 16, 1178 BC: A solar eclipse may mark the return of Odysseus, legendary King of Ithaca, to his kingdom after the Trojan War. He discovers a number of suitors competing to marry his wife Penelope, whom they believe to be a widow, in order to succeed him on the throne. He organizes their slaying and re-establishes himself on the throne.
1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
c. 1150 BC: End of Egyptian rule in Palestine. Rameses VI last Pharaoh acknowledged.
c. 1120 BC: destruction of Troy VIIb1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

bronze age collapse can be due to sea peoples... because their conquest on Egypt is in same time frame with fall of Hattusa... Troy was in my opinion not in place where it is claimed it is.... but I do not know where it could have been....

Eneti are kicked out from Asia minor some time after Troyan war due to their conquest with Cimmerians.... perhaps Eneti were part of sea peoples?


And then comes Paphlagonia and the Eneti. Writers question whom the poet means by "the Eneti," when he says,“And the rugged heart of Pylaemenes led the Paphlagonians, from the land of the Eneti, whence the breed of wild mules;
”11for at the present time, they say, there are no Eneti to be seen in Paphlagonia, though some say that there is a village12 on the Aegialus13 ten schoeni14 distant from Amastris. But Zenodotus writes "from Enete,"15 and says that Homer clearly indicates the Amisus of today. And others say that a tribe called Eneti, bordering on the Cappadocians, made an expedition with the Cimmerians and then were driven out to the Adriatic Sea.16 But the thing upon which there is general agreement is, that the Eneti, to whom Pylaemenes belonged, were the most notable tribe of the Paphlagonians, and that, furthermore, these made the expedition with him in very great numbers, but, losing their leader, crossed over to Thrace after the capture of Troy, and on their wanderings went to the Enetian country,17 as it is now called. According to some writers, Antenor and his children took part in this expedition and settled at the recess of the Adriatic, as mentioned by me in my account of Italy.18 It is therefore reasonable to suppose that it was on this account that the Eneti disappeared and are not to be seen in Paphlagonia. [9]


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=12:chapter =3

btw. Cappadocia is settled by Syrians and that matches I2a hotspot there....
this is regarding my claims that Veneti and Serians were I2a people..some accounts mention also Cimmerians being Cappadocians...so it makes sense that Cimmerians were same as Serians / Syrians



As for the Paphlagonians, they are bounded on the east by the Halys River, which, according to Herodotus, “flows from the south between the Syrians and the Paphlagonians and empties into the Euxine Sea, as it is called;”19by "Syrians," however, he means the "Cappadocians," and in fact they are still today called "White Syrians," while those outside the Taurus are called "Syrians." As compared with those this side the Taurus, those outside have a tanned complexion, while those this side do not, and for this reason received the appellation "white." And Pindar says that the Amazons“swayed a 'Syrian' army that reached afar with their spears,
” thus clearly indicating that their abode was in Themiscyra. Themiscyra is in the territory of the Amiseni; and this territory belongs to the White Syrians, who live in the country next after the Halys River. On the east, then, the Paphlagonians are bounded by the Halys River; on the south by Phrygians and the Galatians who settled among them; on the west by the Bithynians and the Mariandyni (for the race of the Cauconians has everywhere been destroyed), and on the north by the Euxine

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=12:chapter =3

now, this is where Cimmerians settled in Europe, that is where archeological findings related to them are found

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

note branch that goes to north Italy Venetic areas......

now look at early Slavs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png

they match very well Cimmerians or Serians/ Syrians....
there is also notable correlation with spread of I2a2

Bavarian geographer manuscript claims that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavic people origin from it.... some historians see Zeruiani as corruption of Serb tribal name... but it is obviously wider, it is about Serians/Syrians/ Cimmerians....

Veneti and Syrians/Cimmerians were neigbours in Asia minor, they waged wars together....it is reasonable to assume shared origin...

link to Veneti is I2a, and early Slavs said to be of Venetic race that is now scattered among many tribes and peoples....

Antes are tribe that was both among Sarmatians and early Slavs... Antes is obviously same tribal name as Eneti....
I think that Eneti split in several parts.... some went to Adriatic, some to Vistula, some to Britanny, some to north of Black sea.... but not all those migrations were at time when they were kicked from Paphlagonia... I think Adriatic Veneti and Britanny Veneti did split match earlier... and north of Black sea was settled by related I2a Cimmerians much before...

look at this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Noahsworld_map.png/402px-Noahsworld_map.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Noahsworld_map.png

there is Gomer and Riphat both south and north of Black sea
Gomer are Gimmru or Cimmerians and are in Cappadocia...
Riphat is in bible son of Gomer, those are Paphlagonians or Eneti...

Gomer is also considered to be forefather of Germanic people... that is additional clue that these are haplogroup I people....

now, Eneti from Paphlagonia were kicked out from there, but Cappadocians/Syrians / Cimmerians stayed....
and also the one north of Black sea stayed there...

look at I2a map now...I2a spread in Cappadocia and north of Black sea

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

I think it is clear...

zanipolo
08-04-11, 21:16
in my opinion, Dardanians are neither Greek nor Illyrians...
they are separate people...

I agree that there was massive settlement wave from Asia minor to Europe... but I do not relate it to bronze age collapse... I think that bronze age collapse was wave of invaders going in other way from north to south...from east Euroasia (Thrace or Caucasus?) towards Egypt

Etruscans left Lydia due to 18 year long hunger.... not related to bronze age collapse, but to volcanic winter due to Hecka-3 eruption
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hekla_3_eruption



http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

look now at chronology

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

bronze age collapse can be due to sea peoples... because their conquest on Egypt is in same time frame with fall of Hattusa... Troy was in my opinion not in place where it is claimed it is.... but I do not know where it could have been....

Eneti are kicked out from Asia minor some time after Troyan war due to their conquest with Cimmerians.... perhaps Eneti were part of sea peoples?



http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=12:chapter =3

btw. Cappadocia is settled by Syrians and that matches I2a hotspot there....
this is regarding my claims that Veneti and Serians were I2a people..some accounts mention also Cimmerians being Cappadocians...so it makes sense that Cimmerians were same as Serians / Syrians



http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0198:book=12:chapter =3

now, this is where Cimmerians settled in Europe, that is where archeological findings related to them are found

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

note branch that goes to north Italy Venetic areas......

now look at early Slavs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png

they match very well Cimmerians or Serians/ Syrians....
there is also notable correlation with spread of I2a2

Bavarian geographer manuscript claims that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavic people origin from it.... some historians see Zeruiani as corruption of Serb tribal name... but it is obviously wider, it is about Serians/Syrians/ Cimmerians....

Veneti and Syrians/Cimmerians were neigbours in Asia minor, they waged wars together....it is reasonable to assume shared origin...

link to Veneti is I2a, and early Slavs said to be of Venetic race that is now scattered among many tribes and peoples....

Antes are tribe that was both among Sarmatians and early Slavs... Antes is obviously same tribal name as Eneti....
I think that Eneti split in several parts.... some went to Adriatic, some to Vistula, some to Britanny, some to north of Black sea.... but not all those migrations were at time when they were kicked from Paphlagonia... I think Adriatic Veneti and Britanny Veneti did split match earlier... and north of Black sea was settled by related I2a Cimmerians much before...

look at this

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Noahsworld_map.png/402px-Noahsworld_map.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Noahsworld_map.png

there is Gomer and Riphat both south and north of Black sea
Gomer are Gimmru or Cimmerians and are in Cappadocia...
Riphat is in bible son of Gomer, those are Paphlagonians or Eneti...

Gomer is also considered to be forefather of Germanic people... that is additional clue that these are haplogroup I people....

now, Eneti from Paphlagonia were kicked out from there, but Cappadocians/Syrians / Cimmerians stayed....
and also the one north of Black sea stayed there...

look at I2a map now...I2a spread in Cappadocia and north of Black sea

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

I think it is clear...

So, reading your information, you seem to conclude with Strabo that the Veneti came from Brittany into the adriatic zone as part of the Celtic migration running West to East.
This then appeared that these Celtic-veneti moved in a northly and southeasterly direction ( heading towards thrace) while at a similar time, the anatolian migration moved in a north westerly direction into illyria ( but below the celtic movement).

This can explain why celts once reaching "basically Vienna " dispersed north , east and south. The venetics of the adriatic would have tried to settle in an area which was a funnel of immigrations , that is between the alps and the adriatic.

Maybe the slovenes are correct in that they say they are not slavs, but are of Celtic-venetic culture who's ancestors on the eastern side of the Julian alps where slavitized in the 6th century AD ( while the western parts of the Julian alps was latinized by the Romans around 100BC )

This will also make sense, on how the Bavarians where pushed from there alpine area into there current position. Austrian language is a Bavarian dialect.

Polybius noted , that the veneti in the adriatic was only on the coast and that the interior where celts or where they illyrians as they had a common language with the histrians and Lubarni
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0234:book=2:chapter= 17&highlight=

then again North Picene was illyrian or where they veneti ( as there script is venetic) while the south Picene where Sabellic.

Also we have that all rivers in northern Italy are named after rivers in france and britain.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:entry=gallia-cisalpina-geo

We must conclude that the immigrants would have named them after the areas they departed from.
Also in the text it mentions that north of the Po was associated with old welsh language.................
except by a comparison of the old Italian languages with the existing Cumri (Welsh), or with the Gaelic, and by an examination of the names of the mountains, rivers, and other natural features of the Italian peninsula, which we may assume to be the oldest historical records that exist of the inhabitants of Italy.


We need to examine the celtic/gallic migrations that went West to East because it would be illogical to say these people did not migrate while other races did

East of the Athesis in the hill country the position of the Medoaci was probably in the upper valleys of the two rivers named Medoacus or Meduacus; and in the mountains above the head of the Adriatic were the Carni, a Celtic people,--for there were Celtae in these parts. [CARNI (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:id=carni-geo)] The country between the Adige and the Carni was Venetia, or the country of the Veneti, which is generally excluded from the descriptions of Gallia Cisalpina in the limited sense; and this is correct enough, for the Romans had no wars with the Veneti, and their writers have not told us that they were Galli. This name, one of the oldest national names of Italy, has subsisted to the present day. If the Veneti were Celtae or Galli, they belong to some very early migration, and the supposition that they were Celtae, is at least as probable as any other. The remark of Polybius (2.17 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Plb.%202.17&lang=original)) as to their language, is not decisive against the supposition of their being of Gallic or Celtic stock. Herodotus (5.9 (http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Hdt.%205.9&lang=original)) had heard of the Heneti or Eneti on the Adriatic, and he speaks of Eneti (1.196) as Illyrians, from which, even if it be true, we can conclude nothing, except that the Eneti, who are probably the Veneti, were on the Adriatic in the fifth century before our era. Strabo (p. 212) gives two traditions about the Veneti; one that they were from the Armoric Veneti in Gallia, and another that they were from the Paphlagonian Heneti. In another place (p. 195) he has a sensible remark on this matter: he says, “I think that these Veneti of Transalpine Gallia were the parent stock of the Veneti on the Hadriatic, for nearly all the rest of the Celtae who are in Italy, here migrated thither from the country beyond the Alps, like the Boii and the Senones; but on account of the sameness of name (some) say that they are Paphlagonians. However, I do not speak positively, for in such matters probability is sufficient.” This passage contains a good deal. First, it states that nearly all the Celtae of Italy came from the country beyond the Alps, which implies that there were some Celtae who did not come from Transalpine Gallia; secondly, he means to say, that the Veneti are Celtae, for he says, “nearly all the rest of the Celtae,” which implies that the Veneti were Celtae. Besides, if they were not Celtae, but something else, he would not have supposed that they were descendants of the Transalpine Veneti. His text clearly means that they were Celtae. His argument for their Transalpine origin is not worth much. We might just as well suppose these Italian Veneti to be the progenitors of the Transalpine Veneti; for, as Herodotus says, “in a very long time any thing may take place.”

Zajaz
26-11-11, 02:06
The Dorian extraction of Macedones and their relations with Thracians

By: Musë Gurabia

© www.albpelasgian.com (http://www.albpelasgian.com/)
© www.arberiaonline.com (http://www.arberiaonline.com/)

Instead of introduction

The question whether the ancient Macedones were Greeks or not has triggered endless debates among scholarship since XIXth century onwards. The attempts to solve that puzzle were not always of scholar motivation: the involving of modern nationalism in historical domains has tangled the whole issue of Macedones. The question of the actual racial origins of the ancient Macedonians cannot be answered adequately on the basis of the language or of social and religious customs in historical times.

It is, however, historically an unprofitable question, which has only gained in importance in modern times because it has been taken up by nationalists of all kinds in the Balkans and elsewhere and exploited, according to the answer, in the service of territorial and other claims. Hence it is not surprise at all to find out senseless claims either by Greeks and Slavs of Macedonia, whose purpose is to usurp the throne of historical owner of Macedonia.

A scholar who enters on such debate does not have an easy task: first and foremost, he must necessarily refrain from taking any biased political position. What does this mean? The nationalist historiographies systematically have abused with the ancient testimonies and archeological excavations by enhancing the importance of some details in expense of others. Without any scruple, Greek nationalist freaks carry infamous signs like: “Μακεδονία 4000 χρόνια ελληνικής ιστορίας και πολιτισμού (Macedonia: 4000 Years of Greek History and Civilization). In a burst of national pride, they are going to ascribe deceitfully an artificial Hellenism to Macedonia; thereby to justify their nationalist policies in Macedonia.

Actually we have received a number of ancient sources that have been preserved through millennia, who at least are profuse in number. But at the same time, they are quite vague and not clear references; as a matter of fact, the scholars drew up different interpretations. Although the situation is not as hopeless as it seem at the first glimpse: one who is going to dedicate his time on searching the roots of Macedones has to sift with great of caution the ancient sources by omitting corrupted parts.

Who were the Dorians?

It has been assumed that Macedonians owe their origin to the tribes which later were identified as primarily Dorian. In the period which followed the unstable Iron Age, Dorians were established on both sides of the northern extension of the Pindus range. Being restricted into barren mountains, the Proto-Dorians were fond to acquire new arable lands. The trajectory of their migration is treated by a number of scholars in different ways. But all of them principally agree that this migration begun from Pindus range (probably in the early seventh century) with the ultimate destination to the fertile plain of Emathia.

The proponents of Greek origin of Macedones base their claim largely on the groundless assumption that Dorian pool was Greek speaking from the very outset. This assumption led them naturally to suggest that Macedonians were Greeks, although not the same with the rest of Greeks. Such a conclusion leaves much to be desired.

Dorians, to begin with, were a conglomeration of tribes who established themselves as overlords of a large section of historical Greece. Scholars still are unsure about the primordial homeland of Dorians: the Dorians were thought to have come from Northern Danubian regions. Dalmatia and Pannonia might have been the very first seats of them before they swamp into southern part of Balkans.

An Illyrian component among them is recognized by a various range of scholars. According to the tradition, there were three main Dorian tribes: Ὑλλέας καὶ Παμφύλους καὶ Δυμανάτας (Hylleis, Pamphyloi, and Dymanatai). Ps-Scylax in his geographical description of eastern shores of Adriatic gives some valuable hints on what we may justly call as Proto-Dorians:

[22]: “The barbarians called Lotus-eaters are the following: Hierastamnai, Boulinoi (Hyllinoi), coterminous with Boulinoi the Hylloi. And these say Hyllos son of Herakles settled them: and they are barbarians. [...] And Boulinoi are an Illyric nation”.

[22]: Εἰσὶ δὲ καὶ οἱ λωτοφάγοι καλούμενοι βάρβαροι οἵδε• Ἱεραστάμναι, Βουλινοὶ Ὑλλινοί• Βουλινῶν ὁμοτέρμονεςὝλλοι. Οὗτοι δέ φασιν Ὕλλον τὸν Ἡρακλέους αὐτοὺς κατοικίσαι• εἰσὶ δὲ βάρβαροι. [...]Βουλινοὶ δ᾽ εἰσὶν ἔθνος Ἰλλυρικόν.

This leaves some room to doubt that Proto-Dorians seemingly were similar to the historical Illyrians since they used to live in the same territories. There is absolutely no reliable evidence to attribute any Greek origin to them while it is apparently known that Greeks as an ethnos were not yet consolidated. Thucydides tries to recount this chaotic state:

[1.3]: “The feebleness of antiquity is further proved to me by the circumstance that there appears to have been no common action in Hellas before the Trojan War. And I am inclined to think that the very name was not as yet given to the whole country, and in fact did not exist at all before the time of Hellen, the son of Deucalion; the different tribes, of which the Pelasgian was the most widely spread, gave their own names to different districts”.

[1.3]: δηλοῖ δέ μοι καὶ τόδε τῶν παλαιῶν ἀσθένειαν οὐχ ἥκιστα: πρὸγὰρ τῶν Τρωικῶν οὐδὲν φαίνεται πρότερον κοινῇ ἐργασαμένη ἡἙλλάς: [2] δοκεῖ δέ μοι, οὐδὲ τοὔνομα τοῦτο ξύμπασά πω εἶχεν,ἀλλὰ τὰ μὲν πρὸ Ἕλληνος τοῦ Δευκαλίωνος καὶ πάνυ οὐδὲ εἶναιἡ ἐπίκλησις αὕτη, κατὰ ἔθνη δὲ ἄλλα τε καὶ τὸ Πελασγικὸν ἐπὶπλεῖστον ἀφ᾽ ἑαυτῶν τὴν ἐπωνυμίαν παρέχεσθαι

Pausanias reports that Dorian expedition took place two generation later after the Trojan War:

[4.3.3 ]: “After the conclusion of the Trojan war and the death of Nestor after his return home, the Dorian expedition and return of the Heracleidae, which took place two generations later, drove the descendants of Nestor from Messenia”.

[4.3.3]: διαπολεμηθέντος δὲ τοῦ πρὸς Ἴλιον πολέμου καὶ Νέστορος ὡς ἐπανῆλθεν οἴκαδε τελευτήσαντος, Δωριέων στόλος καὶ ἡ κάθοδος Ἡρακλειδῶν γενομένη δύο γενεαῖς ὕστερον ἐξέβαλε τοὺς Νηλέως ἀπογόνους ἐκ τῆς Μεσσηνίας.

However, this does not explain for instance what was the ethnic relation of Dorians with the old inhabitants like Achaians who got heavily contracted in the most barren sections of the country. Strabo makes it explicit that many of the former inhabitants were simply driven out by the newcomers:

[009.001.007]: But after the return of the Heracleidae and the partitioning of the country, it came to pass that many of the former inhabitants were driven out of their homelands into Attica by the Heracleidae and the Dorians who came back with them.

[009.001.007]: μετὰ δὲ τὴν τῶν Ἡρακλειδῶν κάθοδον καὶ τὸν τῆς χώρας μερισμὸν ὑπ’ αὐτῶν καὶ τῶν συγκατελθόντων αὐτοῖς Δωριέων ἐκπεσεῖν τῆς οἰκείας συνέβη πολλοὺς εἰς τὴν Ἀττικήν

It is quite plausible that Dorians were at least perceived as not having the slightest tie with the Achaians. With the drift of time, they were apparently influenced by the much-advanced Achaians to the degree they were assimilated.

[Herodotus: 68]: Thus he had done to Adrastos; and he also changed the names of the Dorian tribes, in order that the Sikyonians might not have the same tribes as the Argives; in which matter he showed great contempt of the Sikyonians, for the names he gave were taken from the names of a pig and an ass by changing only the endings”.

[Herodotus: 68]: ταῦτα μὲν ἐς Ἄδρηστόν οἱ ἐπεποίητο, φυλὰς δὲ τὰς Δωριέων, ἵνα δὴ μὴ αἱ αὐταὶ ἔωσι τοῖσι Σικυωνίοισι καὶ τοῖσι Ἀργείοισι, μετέβαλε ἐς ἄλλα οὐνόματα. ἔνθα καὶ πλεῖστον κατεγέλασε τῶν Σικυωνίων• ἐπὶ γὰρ ὑός τε καὶ ὄνου τὰς ἐπωνυμίας μετατιθεὶς αὐτὰ τὰ τελευταῖα ἐπέθηκε, πλὴν τῆς ἑωυτοῦ φυλῆς• ταύτῃ δὲ τὸ οὔνομα ἀπὸ τῆς ἑωυτοῦ ἀρχῆς ἔθετο

It is again Strabo who points out that Dorians lost the intercourse with the rest of Dorians, and as a matter of fact they were no longer a part of the same tribe as before:

[Strabo 008.001.002]: “...the Dorians too, since they were few in number and lived in a most rugged country, have, because of their lack of intercourse with others, changed their speech and their other customs to the extent that they are no longer a part of the same tribe as before. And this was precisely the case with the Athenians”.

[Strabo 008.001.002]: “…καὶ τοὺς Δωριέας δὲ ὀλίγους ὄντας καὶ τραχυτάτην οἰκοῦντας χώραν εἰκός ἐστι τῷ ἀνεπιμίκτῳ παρατρέψαι τὴν γλῶτταν καὶ τὰ ἄλλα ἔθη πρὸς τὸ μὴ ὁμογενές, ὁμογενεῖς πρότερον ὄντας. τοῦτο δ’ αὐτὸ καὶ τοῖς Ἀθηναίοις συνέβη”.

The mutual animosity between Dorians and Achaians lasted as we may infer from ancient sources at least until the Classical period. According to Herodotus, Dorians were strictly prohibited from entering to the Achaian temples on the grounds they were foreigners. According to him, Cleomenes tried to trick the women priests by faking his origin: “Woman, I am not a Dorian, but an Achaian.” ( «ὦ γύναι, ἀλλ᾽ οὐ Δωριεύς εἰμι ἀλλ᾽ Ἀχαιός.»).

It should be duly pointed out that there was a gigantic gap between the external name of a tribe and its real origin. It was a common practice in the very antiquity to label a people on the basis of a noteworthy king. We may note in passing, Eurpides in his ‘Archelaus’ who has preserved an interesting glimpse which cast some light to our idea:

“Danaus, who was the father of fifty daughters, having arrived in Argos inhabited the city of Inachus, and made a law that those who had before borne the name of Pelasgiotæ throughout Greece should be called Danai.”

Also we have seen in the quoted fragment of Herodotus, the Sikyonians desired to count themselves as equal with the Arigives. For that purpose, Adrastos is said to have changed only the endings of names. This seems to suggest that Hellenism (if we are to use the Classical connotation of the term) never affected Dorians, who preserved a distinct individuality during all the time.

Let us turn back to the scope of chapter. Does the Dorian extraction of Macedones indicate any kind of Hellenism? The answer is a doubtless NO. We have squarely argued that Dorians got Hellenized during their intercourse with the Achaians to the level they were no longer similar with the rest of Dorians. Anyway, the warped assumption that the Dorians of Pindus were Greeks at that time is not sustained at best or groundless at worst.

It has been even assumed that historical Macedonians sprung from Southern Dorians on the grounds that the same southern toponymes could be found as well in Pindus:

[STRABO 008.003.031]: “…and they point out the site of the city on a lofty place between Ossa and Olympus, two mountains that bear the same name as those in Thessaly”.

[STRABO 008.003.031]: “…Πῖσαν εἰρῆσθαι, οἷον πίστραν, ὅπερ ἐστὶ ποτίστρα• τὴν δὲ πόλιν ἱδρυμένην ἐφ’ ὕψους δεικνύουσι μεταξὺ δυεῖν ὀροῖν, Ὄσσης καὶ Ὀλύμπου, ὁμωνύμων τοῖς ἐν Θετταλίᾳ”.

In all probability, a bunch of northern names (like Ossa, Olympus, etc) were spread most likely by any wave of Dorian wanderers. Their presence around the mount Olympus is backed up even by the authority of Diodorus Siculus. He furnishes us with the following excerpt:

[V.80.2]: “The third people to cross over to the island, we are told, were Dorians, under the leadership of Tectamus the son of Dorus; and the account states that the larger number of these Dorians was gathered from the regions about Olympus…”

[V.80.2]: τρίτον δὲ γένος φασὶ τῶν Δωριέων παραβαλεῖν εἰς τὴν νῆσον ἡγουμένου Τεκτάμου τοῦ Δώρου• τούτου δὲ τοῦ λαοῦ μέρος τὸ μὲν πλέον ἀθροισθῆναι λέγουσιν ἐκ τῶν περὶ τὸν Ὄλυμπον τόπων”.

The Dorian extraction of Macedones is indicated originally from the authority of Herodotus who points out that people who later began to be called as Dorian dwelt initially in Pindos and were called “Makednian”:

[Herodotus, Book I. 56]: “…for in the reign of Deucalion this race dwelt in Pthiotis, and in the time of Doros the son of Hellen in the land lying below Ossa and Olympos, which is called Histiaiotis; and when it was driven from Histiaiotis by the sons of Cadmos, it dwelt in Pindos and was called Makednian; and thence it moved afterwards to Dryopis, and from Dryopis it came finally to Peloponnesus, and began to be called Dorian”.

[I,56]… ἐπὶ μὲν γὰρ Δευκαλίωνος βασιλέος οἴκεε γῆν τὴν Φθιῶτιν, ἐπὶ δὲ Δώρου τοῦ Ἕλληνος τὴν ὑπὸ τὴν Ὄσσαν τε καὶ τὸν Ὄλυμπον χώρην, καλεομένην δὲ Ἱστιαιῶτιν• ἐκ δὲ τῆς Ἱστιαιώτιδος ὡς ἐξανέστη ὑπὸ Καδμείων, οἴκεε ἐν Πίνδῳ Μακεδνὸν καλεόμενον• ἐνθεῦτεν δὲ αὖτις ἐς τὴν Δρυοπίδα μετέβη καὶ ἐκ τῆς Δρυοπίδος οὕτω ἐς Πελοπόννησον ἐλθὸν Δωρικὸν ἐκλήθη.

If we are to believe Herodotus opinion, Dorians began to be called with this name in the moment they finally came to Peloponnesus. Hence it is not far from the truth that Macedones owe their origin not to Hellenized Dorians of Peloponnesus but to the ones living in Pindos.

The emergence of Macedonian ethnos: the story of Argeads

Much has been written for the establishment of Argead Macedones in the Emathia plain. The ancient writers were somehow more focused on the chief leaders rather than people around them. Herodotus in his story recounts the wanderings of three ‘Macedonian’ brothers and their itinerary:

[137]. Now of this Alexander the seventh ancestor was that Perdiccas who first became despot of the Macedonians, and that in the manner which here follows: From Argos there fled to the Illyrians three brothers of the descendents of Temenos, Gauanes, Aëropos, and Perdiccas; and passing over from the Illyrians into the upper parts of Macedonia they came to the city of Lebaia.

[137]. τοῦ δὲ Ἀλεξάνδρου τούτου ἕβδομος γενέτωρ Περδίκκης ἐστὶ ὁ κτησάμενος τῶν Μακεδόνων τὴν τυραννίδα τρόπῳ τοιῷδε. ἐξ Ἄργεος ἔφυγον ἐς Ἰλλυριοὺς τῶν Τημένου ἀπογόνων τρεῖς ἀδελφεοί, Γαυάνης τε καὶ Ἀέροπος καὶ Περδίκκης, ἐκ δὲ Ἰλλυριῶν ὑπερβαλόντες ἐς τὴν ἄνω Μακεδονίην ἀπίκοντο ἐς Λεβαίην πόλιν.

The link with the Peloponnesian Argos is either tenuous and is devoid from historical reality and as such it has been a subject of reproach. Robert M. Errington concedes:

“Herodotos, who probably visited Macedonia at the time of this Alexander, recounts the first, perhaps semiofficial, version, which depends on the similarity of sound between the name of the Peloponnesian town Argos and that of the royal famiy name Argeadai” (1990: 2).

Judging from the geographical description given by Herodotus, we may plainly invoke that this Argos is to be found in Orestia. Strabo gives additional hints on the foundation of that city:

: It is said that Orestes once took possession of Orestias – when in exile on account of the murder of his mother – and left the country bearing his name; and that [B]he also founded a city and called it Argos Oresticum.

: λέγεται δὲ τὴν Ὀρεστιάδα κατασχεῖν ποτε Ὀρέστης φεύγων τὸν τῆς μητρὸς φόνον καὶ καταλιπεῖν ἐπώνυμον ἑαυτοῦ τὴν χώραν,κτίσαι δὲ καὶ πόλιν, [B]καλεῖσθαι δ’ αὐτὴν Ἄργος Ὀρεστικόν.

The so-called ‘Argive’ Macedonians emerged most likely in the proximity of Ἰλλυριοὺς, Ἄργεος and Λεβαίην. Although we have slender evidences about the inhabitants of these districts, it can be safely conjectured that Illyrians prevailed there.

As a matter of fact, original Macedonians were more akin to them rather to any other people. All of these territories were constantly excluded from Hellas proper; the Greek presence is barely to be found at the period we are speaking about. As Argive Macedonians became a powerful clan they swamp eastwardly by conquering a multitude of tribes in the Emathia plain. For a clear picture of this expansion we have to utilize Thucydides records:

[2.99]: “Assembling in Doberus, they prepared for descending from the heights upon Lower Macedonia, where the dominions of Perdiccas lay; for the Lyncestae, Elimiots, and other tribes more inland, though Macedonians by blood and allies and, dependents of their kindred, still have their own separate governments. The country on the sea coast, now called Macedonia, was first acquired by Alexander, the father of Perdiccas, and his ancestors, originally Temenids from Argos.This was effected by the expulsion from Pieria of the Pierians, who afterwards inhabited Phagres and other places under Mount Pangaeus, beyond the Strymon indeed the country between Pangaeus and the sea is still called the Pierian gulf of the Bottiaeans, at present neighbors of the Chalcidians, from Bottia, and by the acquisition in Paeonia of a narrow strip along the river Axius extending to Pella and the sea; the district of Mygdonia, between the Axius and the Strymon, being also added by the expulsion of the Edonians. From Eordia also were driven the Eordians, most of whom perished, though a few of them still live round Physca, and the Almopians from Almopia. These Macedonians also conquered places belonging to the other tribes, which are still theirs— Anthemus, Crestonia, Bisaltia, and much of Macedonia proper. The whole is now called Macedonia, and at the time of the invasion of Sitalces, Perdiccas, Alexander’s son, was the reigning king.”

[2.99]:“ξυνηθροίζοντο οὖν ἐν τῇ Δοβήρῳ καὶ παρεσκευάζοντο, ὅπωςκατὰ κορυφὴν ἐσβαλοῦσιν ἐς τὴν κάτω Μακεδονίαν, ἧς ὁΠερδίκκας ἦρχεν. τῶν γὰρ Μακεδόνων εἰσὶ καὶ Λυγκησταὶκαὶ Ἐλιμιῶται καὶ ἄλλα ἔθνη ἐπάνωθεν, ἃ ξύμμαχα μέν ἐστιτούτοις καὶ ὑπήκοα, βασιλείας δ᾽ ἔχει καθ᾽ αὑτά. τὴν δὲ παρὰθάλασσαν νῦν Μακεδονίαν Ἀλέξανδρος ὁ Περδίκκου πατὴρ καὶοἱ πρόγονοι αὐτοῦ, Τημενίδαι τὸ ἀρχαῖον ὄντες ἐξ Ἄργους, πρῶτοιἐκτήσαντο καὶ ἐβασίλευσαν ἀναστήσαντες μάχῃ ἐκ μὲν ΠιερίαςΠίερας, οἳ ὕστερον ὑπὸ τὸ Πάγγαιον πέραν Στρυμόνος ᾤκησανΦάγρητα καὶ ἄλλα χωρία καὶ ἔτι καὶ νῦν Πιερικὸς κόλποςκαλεῖται ἡ ὑπὸ τῷ Παγγαίῳ πρὸς θάλασσαν γῆ, ἐκ δὲ τῆςΒοττίας καλουμένης Βοττιαίους, οἳ νῦν ὅμοροι Χαλκιδέωνοἰκοῦσιν: τῆς δὲ Παιονίας παρὰ τὸν Ἀξιὸν ποταμὸν στενήντινα καθήκουσαν ἄνωθεν μέχρι Πέλλης καὶ θαλάσσηςἐκτήσαντο, καὶ πέραν Ἀξιοῦ μέχρι Στρυμόνος τὴν Μυγδονίανκαλουμένην Ἠδῶνας ἐξελάσαντες νέμονται. ἀνέστησαν δὲκαὶ ἐκ τῆς νῦν Ἐορδίας καλουμένης Ἐορδούς, ὧν οἱ μὲν πολλοὶἐφθάρησαν, βραχὺ δέ τι αὐτῶν περὶ Φύσκαν κατῴκηται, καὶ ἐξἈλμωπίας Ἄλμωπας. ἐκράτησαν δὲ καὶ τῶν ἄλλων ἐθνῶν οἱΜακεδόνες οὗτοι, ἃ καὶ νῦν ἔτι ἔχουσι, τόν τε Ἀνθεμοῦντα καὶΚρηστωνίαν καὶ Βισαλτίαν καὶ Μακεδόνων αὐτῶν πολλήν. τὸ δὲξύμπαν Μακεδονία καλεῖται, καὶ Περδίκκας Ἀλεξάνδρουβασιλεὺς αὐτῶν ἦν ὅτε Σιτάλκης ἐπῄει.

The above excerpt does not satisfy our curiosity at all if the previous inhabitants were simply driven out or overlaid by the new rulers. Strabo candidly asserts that:

[ 7.5.11]: “But of all these tribes the Argeadae, as they are called, established themselves as master”.

[7. 5. 11]: “Vτούτων δὲ πάντων οἱ Ἀργεάδαι καλούμενοι κατέστησαν κύριοι”.

If the Strabo’s account carries any validity, then we may surmise that there was no massive expulsion of the native inhabitants. The adjacent areas around original seats of Macedonians are not to be ignored, as some desire. It is very common among Greek nationalist historians to dissociate original Macedonians from their nearby neighbors like Illyrians (the progenitors of modern Albanians), Bryghes and various Thracian tribes.

Macedonia’s first dwellers

The continuous intercourse with them had a great importance in the formation of classical Macedonians, which were strictly excluded from Greece, either in terms of ethnicity and geography. It would be an anomaly of its kind to consider that the traces of previous inhabitants were entirely lost with the arrival of Macedonians. We are going to reveal some of these mysterious tribes:

[Herodotus, VII,73]: “Now the Phrygians, as the Macedonians say, used to be called Brigians during the time that they were natives of Europe and dwelt with the Macedonians; but after they had changed into Asia, with their country they changed also their name and were called Phrygians”.

[Herodotus, VII,73]: οἱ δὲ Φρύγες, ὡς Μακεδόνες λέγουσι, ἐκαλέοντο Βρίγες χρόνον ὅσον Εὐρωπήιοι ἐόντες σύνοικοι ἦσαν Μακεδόσι, μεταβάντες δὲ ἐς τὴν Ἀσίην ἅμα τῇ χώρῃ καὶ τὸ οὔνομα μετέβαλον ἐς Φρύγας.

The ancient sources do not clarify about the identity of Bryghes, but nonetheless a couple of sources assign to them as Thracians. Hence, Strabo hammered home:

[7. 3.2]: “And the Phrygians themselves are Brigians, a Thracian tribe...”.

[7. 3.2]: καὶ αὐτοὶ δ’ οἱ Φρύγες Βρίγες εἰσί, Θρᾴκιόν τι ἔθνος…”.

The cultural impact of Bryghes, Mysians, Pierians and the rest of Thracians is yet to be interpreted. Optimistically, we can say that the examination of extant sources reveal that original Macedonians blended to a certain degree with the Thracians who previously occupied a large section of historical Macedonia. The stubbornness of classical Greeks to not accept Macedonians as their own is at least historically justified. The Hellenization of upper strata of Macedonian society was never enough as to eradicate the non-Greek component of Macedonian people.

Ancient sources:

1. Graham Shipley,The Periplous of Pseudo-Scylax: An Interim Translation, 2008
2. Thomas Hobbes, Thucydides, History of the Peloponnesian War
3. W. H. S. Jones and H. A. Ormero, Pausanias , Description of Greece
4. Loeb Classical Library edition, The Geography of Strabo
5. George Rawlinson, The History of Herodotus

Modern sources:

1. Robert Malcolm Errington, A history of Macedonia, University of California Press, 1990
2. M. V. Sakellariou, Macedonia, 4000 years of Greek history and civilization, Ekdotikè Athenon, 1992
3. Apostolos Vasileiou Daskalakēs, The Hellenism of the ancient Macedonians, Institute for Balkan Studies, 1965

Originally taken from: http://www.albpelasgian.com/the-dorian-extraction-of-macedones-and-their-relations-with-thracians.html

Yetos
26-11-11, 03:29
Just 3 words,

1) Dorians

δωριεις τριχακες = dorians from trikka
modern day trikkala, a city east of Pindus west of Ossa and south of Olymp,

Next to Trikka was a city named Aeginion (compare to aegae)


Dorians are from an area that R1a id 2nd in Balkans after Croatia, but the ratios among the diversities follow the ratios of Norway south Italy Grico areas and west Iranic populations,
alternate name for dorians is Locri compare epizephyreian locri S italy,
Locri means lake people (loch), compare with Ellimeians which means Eel people (Elleron-Ellyes)

Locri is name of tribes we found from Lychinitis (Loch->Lych, λοχ-λουχ) to Locris mountain areas and in south Italy ,
Dorians is after city named Doris in Locris area
Dorian language today is Grico in Italy and Tsakonika in Greece,
maybe tsakonika are ancient Illyrian?
Is that you want to prove
Locrians are even today considered pure Doians
meaning that even lake Lychnitis is a Dorian word, (modern is ohrid)
Illyria started above the lake lychnitis wer Illyrus land were, while south of Lychnitis was Cadmus lands,
2) Makedonians never claim Perdikas as their ancestor
But Kardamos,
Makedonians always claim sons of Makednos, son of Hercules,
Argeiads always claim Kardamos as the first King,
Argeiadae also pay respect to Brygians,

Makedonians always consider Thettaleians (Aeolian argos) and Epirotans as their brothers,
Both Thettaleians and Epirotans are consider Aeolian origin.
consider that Pelasgeian argos and aeolian argos is the same area thessaly,




3) Makedonians had as Holy nation also the Brygians, just consider that the Brygians who remained named their selfs MYGDONIANS
so Mygdonians and Brygians = the same
Brygian language was isotones with Greek share many ,
Thrako-Vrygian is part from Greco-aryan,
Brygian language was isotones to Greek
Brygian is still a mystery, Greeks put them to Thracians but seems it belong to a wider family of Greco-aryan
Vrygian god was Tios Bakchos Τιος Βακχος compare greek θεος Βακχος and Slavic Bog
it is clear that Brygians were Centum language,

Just consider The Gordium and the honor Alexander make to the city, why? cause it was Brygian city,
as Edessa next to Makedonian capital


to close subject

YOU ARE TAKING PARTS OF HISTORIANS AND CONNECT THEM TO PROVE WHAT?

THE ONE THAT ARGEIADS ACCEPT ?
THAT PELLA KATADESMOS IS WRONG?

THEN WHY YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THAT DORIANS IS PART OF GREEKS AS THE HISTORIANS OF THAT TIME SAY?

Lakedaimonians did not follow Alexander in his march
BUT ALEXANDER NAMED THEM RELATIVES AND HE DID NOT BURN THEM TO GROUND CAUSE THEY WERE RELATIVES
He punish them as Πλην Λακεδαιμονιοις meaning that they proved cowards or less for such a dare

now you are telling what?
the spartans were not Greeks?
or that Argeiads were not Dorians?
you are trying to prove what? you use ancient Greek writter to prove what-ever came to your mind, but you deny that same writters who put Dorians to Greeks,

Just think the most ancient aegae is not in Makedonia but next to Trikka in Thessaly area from were Dorians named Trichakes

the only connection among Makedonians and Illyrians is that both assimilate Pelasgians
Makedonians assimilate Cadmus areas and Illyrians Illyrus area of old Pelasgian kingdoms

while Makedonians also have connection with Thracians as Pieri etc,
and remember that Brygians that left in Europe named as Mygdonians (Μυγδονες)
compare mygdon-makdon


next time maybe you tell us sarissa is Albanian word
or Spartans were Illyrians who knows,

If Makedonians were not Greeks then why they show respect to many Greek cities,

Besides remember that in Makedonia lived also Cretans (Minoans) named as Bottiaeoi βοττιαιοι
and not βοιωτοι,

NOW LETS SEE WHAT YOU POST



Let us turn back to the scope of chapter. Does the Dorian extraction of Macedones indicate any kind of Hellenism? The answer is a doubtless NO. We have squarely argued that Dorians got Hellenized during their intercourse with the Achaians to the level they were no longer similar with the rest of Dorians. Anyway, the warped assumption that the Dorians of Pindus were Greeks at that time is not sustained at best or groundless at worst.
wow




[Strabo 008.001.002]: “...the Dorians too, since they were few in number and lived in a most rugged country, have, because of their lack of intercourse with others, changed their speech and their other customs to the extent that they are no longer a part of the same tribe as before. And this was precisely the case with the Athenians”.

[Strabo 008.001.002]: “…καὶ τοὺς Δωριέας δὲ ὀλίγους ὄντας καὶ τραχυτάτην οἰκοῦντας χώραν εἰκός ἐστι τῷ ἀνεπιμίκτῳ παρατρέψαι τὴν γλῶτταν καὶ τὰ ἄλλα ἔθη πρὸς τὸ μὴ ὁμογενές, ὁμογενεῖς πρότερον ὄντας. τοῦτο δ’ αὐτὸ καὶ τοῖς Ἀθηναίοις συνέβη”.

wow

THE PARADOX on the above

according thoukidides Θουκιδιδης Athens spoke Pelasgian-Thyrrenian before Greek,
It change to Greek after the Dorian Invasion
I am not telling that but Thoukidides,
so If Dorians were not Greeks and athenans spoke Thyrrenian that means according Strabo that Dorians learned Thyrrenian,

so either Thoukidides is wrong either Strabo either someone else,

lets see, Thoukidides is not wrong cause atheneans and orchomenos spoke Pelasgian both words Hattica and Orcho are pelasgian words,

Strabo is not making cause indeed Dorians lost their language,

then were is the paradox and the mistake,

the mistake is in wrong time and on writters will to change history and make the white black

At the times of Strabo Dorian was spoken only in South Italy and not in Greece,
Greek spoke mostly Hellenistic which main substactrum was Ionian the Greek language of Athens
when Christian bible was wrotten we have Koine 2 or Hellenistic 1 not dorian not Ionian not achaian,




so what strabo writes is correct, since dorian was spoken only in South Italy due to lack of Hellenism (was not under Alexanders epigoni
Evwn today the Dorian dialect is spoken in Magna Grecia and in Tsakonika few villages in peloponese,

and not that strabo means that dorians accepted Greek language, from Atheneans, since Dorians gave Greek language to atheneans as Thoukidides say,

so the mistake is not in Thoukidides, not in Strabo, but to the one who wants to change history, and slowly fall in to his own paradox he created,
either we are kidnapped to empty, to non logic, to ατοπον (no basis argue)

SO DORIAN DID INDEED SPOKE GREEK

and if Dorian were Illyrians means that illyrians also Spoke Greek

But here we have the second paradox

so the truth is that Dorians were not Illyrians, and spoke Greek

the old mathematical,
false plus false makes coorect F+F=C
so combine 2 false it seems to be correct and you may even convise the most expert
but always when you find the 1rst comes a second false like above,



to those who want to known the dorian language a link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tsakonian_language

rember τσακωνω in pontic Greek means detach-separate
while in modern Greek passive voice τσακωνομαι means fight-wrangle, create separation,
that is why tsakonians are believed that were in wrangle with Spartians or separated Lakedaimonians,

Elias2
26-11-11, 07:19
Yetos, don't bother trying to argue with nationalistic albanians, they think they are macedons, Illyrians, thracians, etruscan, Pelasgian, atlantian, or any people that were seen as "an ancient great people" because albanians see themselves as a great people, deluded or not. It's called Nationalism, and it shouldn't be taken seriously.

Zajaz
26-11-11, 12:42
Yetos, don't bother trying to argue with nationalistic albanians, they think they are macedons, Illyrians, thracians, etruscan, Pelasgian, atlantian, or any people that were seen as "an ancient great people" because albanians see themselves as a great people, deluded or not. It's called Nationalism, and it shouldn't be taken seriously.

What has to do the nationalism with the above article? You seem to not have full read the content, which is well backed up with ancient testimonies. Anyway, I picked randomly up that article from "Illyria forums". After the reading, I am more inclined to support the close affinity between Hellenes and Illyrians. They were more close to each other than we think. At least, they shared a common origin. One thing that has struck me so far is the fact that Greek historians of XIX century had no issue to kindly accept that Albanians and Greeks were seeds of a common ancestor. For instance, the renowned Greek historian, Konstantinos Paparrigopoulos thought Macedonians as having Illyrian blood. According to him (apologize if my translation is wrong): "The most plausible scenario about Macedonians is that they were a mixture of Illyrians and Hellenes”.

5377

The crucial problem is the nationalist attitude of modern Greek historians. They do consider Macedonia as something exclusively Hellenic, thereby only Greeks have claim on it. This is decidedly wrong. Macedonians were constantly mixed with the nearby tribes: their identity evolved with the course of centuries. If Paparrigopoulos scenario is true, then Greeks and Albanians are equal in regards with the Macedonia.

zanipolo
26-11-11, 19:40
What has to do the nationalism with the above article? You seem to not have full read the content, which is well backed up with ancient testimonies. Anyway, I picked randomly up that article from "Illyria forums". After the reading, I am more inclined to support the close affinity between Hellenes and Illyrians. They were more close to each other than we think. At least, they shared a common origin. One thing that has struck me so far is the fact that Greek historians of XIX century had no issue to kindly accept that Albanians and Greeks were seeds of a common ancestor. For instance, the renowned Greek historian, Konstantinos Paparrigopoulos thought Macedonians as having Illyrian blood. According to him (apologize if my translation is wrong): "The most plausible scenario about Macedonians is that they were a mixture of Illyrians and Hellenes”.
.


The mixture would have been the marriages between Illyrian and macedonians in the "royal" courts. With this , its clear that Illyrians are not macedonians.
History shows that the illyrians "invasion " of the southern balkans began around 1000BC, it is clear also that the first knowledge of illyrians for Greeks happened around 421BC, when Macedonian King, Perdiccas awaited Illyrian mercenaries.
During the pelopessian wars, Diodorus of Syracuse paid Illyrian kings vast amounts of money to take over Epirote lands ( modern Albania ) and put pressure on his opposition. It was only for the Molossian king, harrybas in 384BC , that pushed the illyrians out of Epirus lands.
By 359BC the Macedonians, dardanians, paeonians had already started to push out the illyrians and macedonia established its borders at Lake Lychnitus ( Ohrid). From this time on the illyrians where excluded from all Macedonian affairs , including the future invasion of Persia. You will note the regiments in the macedonian armies, never said illyrian, but did say, paeonians, Odyssians, thracians, dardanians, epirotes, Thessalians etc etc.
So, to conclude the Illyrians where clearly northern balkan people who invaded the south and the Macedonians where noted as always living in the southern balkans

Zajaz
26-11-11, 23:30
History shows that the illyrians "invasion " of the southern balkans began around 1000BC, it is clear also that the first knowledge of illyrians for Greeks happened around 421BC, when Macedonian King, Perdiccas awaited Illyrian mercenaries.


I agree with some of your points. But the chronological framework of events is not given satisfactorily. The so-called Illyrian invasion in Southern Balkans might have been occurred much earlier than 1000 B.C. Judging from the general upheaval that proceed the Trojan War, proto-Illyrians appears in the very heart of Greece on the grounds that the same Northern toponymes are to be found in the midst of Hellas. It's excepted that they lost their identity with the course of time.


The mixture would have been the marriages between Illyrian and macedonians in the "royal" courts. With this , its clear that Illyrians are not macedonians.

The mixture which you are talking about was not limited at the royal courts. The Illyrian presence in certain sections of Emathia leaves room to doubt that mixture was massive, even though we cannot define it properly.


You will note the regiments in the macedonian armies, never said illyrian, but did say, paeonians, Odyssians, thracians, dardanians, epirotes, Thessalians etc etc.

You're mistaken mate. It's Alexander himself who did mention the Illyrians in his army. I don't think as wise to consider either Dardanians or Paeonians as ethnically distinct from the Illyrians.


So, to conclude the Illyrians where clearly northern balkan people who invaded the south and the Macedonians where noted as always living in the southern balkans

This is in disregard with the historical truth. Your concept is fairly simplistic because it ignore the very fact that genuine Illyrians (Illyri proper) used to live in the very outlying regions of Greece (whose northern boundary was marked by Ambracia bay and Peneus river). As a matter of fact, Illyrians took part in the formation of Macedonians as well as Epirotes.

zanipolo
27-11-11, 00:26
I agree with some of your points. But the chronological framework of events is not given satisfactorily. The so-called Illyrian invasion in Southern Balkans might have been occurred much earlier than 1000 B.C. Judging from the general upheaval that proceed the Trojan War, proto-Illyrians appears in the very heart of Greece on the grounds that the same Northern toponymes are to be found in the midst of Hellas. It's excepted that they lost their identity with the course of time.



the bronze age migrations took place around 1200BC, yes the illyrians could have been part of this southern migration




You're mistaken mate. It's Alexander himself who did mention the Illyrians in his army. I don't think as wise to consider either Dardanians or Paeonians as ethnically distinct from the Illyrians.


never read it, link it

the Paeoninas where a thracian people and their border is basically identical to modern slavic-macedonia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Paeonians.png

The dardanians where also thracian people ( some say a trojan tribe ) and move from the dardanalles to present day kosovo in 400BC



This is in disregard with the historical truth. Your concept is fairly simplistic because it ignore the very fact that genuine Illyrians (Illyri proper) used to live in the very outlying regions of Greece (whose northern boundary was marked by Ambracia bay and Peneus river). As a matter of fact, Illyrians took part in the formation of Macedonians as well as Epirotes.

Roman historian and text claim the dalmatians, liburnians as distinct different people from other illyrians, they say illyrians in bordering austria and the danube, down to pannonia are of celtic origin.
The epirotes and molossians of madern northern Greece is confusing you with Illyrians.

Greek Epirus, like the region as a whole, is rugged and mountainous.It comprises the land of the ancient Molossians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Molossians) and Thesprotians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thesprotians)[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epirus_%28region%29#cite_note-1) and a small part of the land of the Chaonians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaonians) the greater part being in Southern Albania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania). It is largely made up of mountainous ridges, part of the Dinaric Alp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinaric_Alps)

The Y-dna E is not illyrian, it can only be a northern greek, epirote , molossian or macedonian

Yetos
27-11-11, 01:24
What has to do the nationalism with the above article? You seem to not have full read the content, which is well backed up with ancient testimonies. Anyway, I picked randomly up that article from "Illyria forums". After the reading, I am more inclined to support the close affinity between Hellenes and Illyrians. They were more close to each other than we think. At least, they shared a common origin. One thing that has struck me so far is the fact that Greek historians of XIX century had no issue to kindly accept that Albanians and Greeks were seeds of a common ancestor. For instance, the renowned Greek historian, Konstantinos Paparrigopoulos thought Macedonians as having Illyrian blood. According to him (apologize if my translation is wrong): "The most plausible scenario about Macedonians is that they were a mixture of Illyrians and Hellenes”.

5377

The crucial problem is the nationalist attitude of modern Greek historians. They do consider Macedonia as something exclusively Hellenic, thereby only Greeks have claim on it. This is decidedly wrong. Macedonians were constantly mixed with the nearby tribes: their identity evolved with the course of centuries. If Paparrigopoulos scenario is true, then Greeks and Albanians are equal in regards with the Macedonia.

better read again my post and your paradox.
and think and ASK YOUR SHELF
Why Vrygians Leave Makedonia which was Near Greeks as you say and Illyrian, and moved to minor Asia next and Beside the Ionia land and Doris land? have you ever wonder why?

answer is the same,
Bryges were isotones with Greeks part Greco-Aryan family
Makedonians were Greeks who assimilated local Pelasgian and kick Thracian (pieri tribe)

Maybe next time you cook posts and tell us that Orpheus was Albanian too :grin:

Yetos
27-11-11, 01:26
I agree with some of your points. But the chronological framework of events is not given satisfactorily. The so-called Illyrian invasion in Southern Balkans might have been occurred much earlier than 1000 B.C. Judging from the general upheaval that proceed the Trojan War, proto-Illyrians appears in the very heart of Greece on the grounds that the same Northern toponymes are to be found in the midst of Hellas. It's excepted that they lost their identity with the course of time.



The mixture which you are talking about was not limited at the royal courts. The Illyrian presence in certain sections of Emathia leaves room to doubt that mixture was massive, even though we cannot define it properly.



You're mistaken mate. It's Alexander himself who did mention the Illyrians in his army. I don't think as wise to consider either Dardanians or Paeonians as ethnically distinct from the Illyrians.



This is in disregard with the historical truth. Your concept is fairly simplistic because it ignore the very fact that genuine Illyrians (Illyri proper) used to live in the very outlying regions of Greece (whose northern boundary was marked by Ambracia bay and Peneus river). As a matter of fact, Illyrians took part in the formation of Macedonians as well as Epirotes.

First of all do you know where is Ematheia and which place is?

Second the Chaonian coins write above them Απειρωταν not Illyrotan why?

now Chaos = Apeiro = Ηπειρος

ok it is time to go back to your kitchen and cook another post
use again your method False+false=Correct

mrikë
29-11-11, 00:00
Drdny is same tribal name as Dardanians....

but than you sneak in Dardanians of Illyria, Dardanians are not the same as Illyrians...Dardanians may have lived in part of Illyria...



Personally I like both science and mythology, but I rarely blend the one with the other. And whenever or if I make such a bold statement as the one above, I always make sure that I have a lot of facts to back me up.

During the Bronze Age there are several excavated settlements in Kosova, that are identified to be as typical Illyrian, and such are Shirokë near Suharekë (Prizren), Dubiçak (Klinë), Hisar (Suharekë, Prizren), Vlasnjë, Vërmicë located in the Dukagjini Plain. The fortresses (gradinë, indicating that aren't built in a masonic style similar to the Iron Age fortresses) that are similar to those in the Dukagjini plain built in a hill, are Kamenica, Teneshdolli, Bellaçevci, Cernica, Strezovci, Binça, Suka e Cërmnjanit etc. Clearly I put the names for research purposes only so that one can check up on them whenever one feels in the mood to do so.

Maybe you heard of Urnfeldkultur, a characteristic central European culture during the Iron Age. Well there is a typical settlement for this type of culture in Kosova (modern day Dardania), and that is in Bërnica e Poshtme. Peculiar for this culture is cremating the dead and putting them in urns, as explained by the name. To boldly generalize only by that specification, one cannot relate that with the Aegean swamps. Similar to this settlement is the one in Badovc, Karagaç, Varosh, Paraçini, Rutevci, etc.

Interesting to note about the pottery of Kosova during the Iron Age is its similarity with the ones excavated in Mat(Albania) and Glasinac (Bosnia and Herzegovina).

There have been theories that this "great movement/invasion/swamp" was from the south (M.Garashanin) rather than from the north, and the theories you present have long been around. But, at this point we can only trust archaeology, because the Earth and the pottery never lies :).

Generally speaking, I think it is interesting what you are pointing out and, I would be more than thrilled to know there has been some advancements in factually relating the Trojan Dardanians with the Illyrian ones. In my personal opinion, I believe it is so. But in scientific terms, I cannot allow myself to trust your words seeing that I cannot read nesili. I would friendly advise you to do the same.

Now, back to mythology. Funny thing what Appian wrote in his book Illyr, IV 2 : " The sons of Illyrius were Enhelaos, Autarius, Dardanius, Medius, Taulantius and Perrebius." He goes on to name the daughters of Illyrius and Hermione, which we can note as other Illyrian tribe names. But then again this is just mythology.

Sile
29-11-11, 07:38
Personally I like both science and mythology, but I rarely blend the one with the other. And whenever or if I make such a bold statement as the one above, I always make sure that I have a lot of facts to back me up.

During the Bronze Age there are several excavated settlements in Kosova, that are identified to be as typical Illyrian, and such are Shirokë near Suharekë (Prizren), Dubiçak (Klinë), Hisar (Suharekë, Prizren), Vlasnjë, Vërmicë located in the Dukagjini Plain. The fortresses (gradinë, indicating that aren't built in a masonic style similar to the Iron Age fortresses) that are similar to those in the Dukagjini plain built in a hill, are Kamenica, Teneshdolli, Bellaçevci, Cernica, Strezovci, Binça, Suka e Cërmnjanit etc. Clearly I put the names for research purposes only so that one can check up on them whenever one feels in the mood to do so.

Maybe you heard of Urnfeldkultur, a characteristic central European culture during the Iron Age. Well there is a typical settlement for this type of culture in Kosova (modern day Dardania), and that is in Bërnica e Poshtme. Peculiar for this culture is cremating the dead and putting them in urns, as explained by the name. To boldly generalize only by that specification, one cannot relate that with the Aegean swamps. Similar to this settlement is the one in Badovc, Karagaç, Varosh, Paraçini, Rutevci, etc.

Interesting to note about the pottery of Kosova during the Iron Age is its similarity with the ones excavated in Mat(Albania) and Glasinac (Bosnia and Herzegovina).

There have been theories that this "great movement/invasion/swamp" was from the south (M.Garashanin) rather than from the north, and the theories you present have long been around. But, at this point we can only trust archaeology, because the Earth and the pottery never lies :).

Generally speaking, I think it is interesting what you are pointing out and, I would be more than thrilled to know there has been some advancements in factually relating the Trojan Dardanians with the Illyrian ones. In my personal opinion, I believe it is so. But in scientific terms, I cannot allow myself to trust your words seeing that I cannot read nesili. I would friendly advise you to do the same.

Now, back to mythology. Funny thing what Appian wrote in his book Illyr, IV 2 : " The sons of Illyrius were Enhelaos, Autarius, Dardanius, Medius, Taulantius and Perrebius." He goes on to name the daughters of Illyrius and Hermione, which we can note as other Illyrian tribe names. But then again this is just mythology.

cremations and in urns, so,!!!.......... many races did this including the Romans, cremate, place in urn, cover with shroud, ( pre Roman empire, this was the normal practice in the times of the Roman Republic)
Maybe it was aboriginal people who first cremated 20000 years ago... search for the Mungo Lady , that started it all

mrikë
29-11-11, 18:34
cremations and in urns, so,!!!.......... many races did this including the Romans, cremate, place in urn, cover with shroud, ( pre Roman empire, this was the normal practice in the times of the Roman Republic)
Maybe it was aboriginal people who first cremated 20000 years ago... search for the Mungo Lady , that started it all

You haven't ever stumbled upon any archaeological literature, have you? Never mind that, pray tell me how does the Mungo Lady correlate to anything we're discussing?

Zajaz
02-12-11, 13:27
the Paeoninas where a thracian people and their border is basically identical to modern slavic-macedonia


The Thracian character of Paeonians is questioned by the fact that they had a distinct culture. Moreover, the ancient sources at our disposal are abundantly clear that Paeonians were not Thracians; their language is linked intimately with that of Mysians (close to Illyrian). The British archeologist, N.G.L. Hammond thought Paones to be the successors of the Iron-Age Illyrians, for they were scattered in most of modern Macedonia as far as Strymon. The tribe of Maedes (Spartacus is thought to have been from that tribe) are credited to be Illyrians in terms of archeology.


The dardanians where also thracian people ( some say a trojan tribe ) and move from the dardanalles to present day kosovo in 400BC

The Thracian being of Dardani is nowhere suggested, at least in ancient testimonies. They were reckoned undoubtedly as one of many Illyrian tribes. In archeological point of view, the excavators throughout Kosova have yielded a culture similar to that of other Illyrians. The thorough linguistic studies revealed the very fact that Illyrian names prevails numerically in the Dardania, while Thracian ones are centered chiefly in the eastern corners of Dardania. R. Katicic, a noteworthy Croatian linguist ranked Dardania as an Illyrian onomastic region. Needless to say, in Dardania are found in so far some distinct names (neither Illyrian nor Thracian) which are not found elsewhere. The connection of the Dardani with the Troy laid upon archeological & mythological arguments. According to the opinion of most scholars, Dardani poured in the direction of Asia Minor somewhere at XII century B.C if not even earlier. It's true that Dardani for most of antic period were in constant interference with adjacent Thracian tribes, but this doesn't mean that they were Thracian, does it?

Yetos
02-12-11, 17:36
The Thracian character of Paeonians is questioned by the fact that they had a distinct culture. Moreover, the ancient sources at our disposal are abundantly clear that Paeonians were not Thracians; their language is linked intimately with that of Mysians (close to Illyrian). The British archeologist, N.G.L. Hammond thought Paones to be the successors of the Iron-Age Illyrians, for they were scattered in most of modern Macedonia as far as Strymon. The tribe of Maedes (Spartacus is thought to have been from that tribe) are credited to be Illyrians in terms of archeology.



The Thracian being of Dardani is nowhere suggested, at least in ancient testimonies. They were reckoned undoubtedly as one of many Illyrian tribes. In archeological point of view, the excavators throughout Kosova have yielded a culture similar to that of other Illyrians. The thorough linguistic studies revealed the very fact that Illyrian names prevails numerically in the Dardania, while Thracian ones are centered chiefly in the eastern corners of Dardania. R. Katicic, a noteworthy Croatian linguist ranked Dardania as an Illyrian onomastic region. Needless to say, in Dardania are found in so far some distinct names (neither Illyrian nor Thracian) which are not found elsewhere. The connection of the Dardani with the Troy laid upon archeological & mythological arguments. According to the opinion of most scholars, Dardani poured in the direction of Asia Minor somewhere at XII century B.C if not even earlier. It's true that Dardani for most of antic period were in constant interference with adjacent Thracian tribes, but this doesn't mean that they were Thracian, does it?

well Dardani are considered as Illyro-Thracian, not pure Illyrian, not pure Thracian,
the case of Troy is suggested by many, but we know troy was a naval people, like etruscans, and not inland like thracians,
the myth gives that Dardanos left Thebes to troy
and not Dardania to Troy, neither from Troy to Dardania, but from troy to Etruria
but makes clear that Chaon was from troy, Chaonia is area so far and so near at southwest of Dardania,
Chaonians are considered Pelasgian, non IE pop that were assimilated by Illyrians and Greeks (especially makedonians)

Eldritch
19-04-12, 16:39
I tend to believe that Montenegro/Northern Albania was the urheimat of the Illyrians.

Alban
21-05-12, 12:13
Can please someone explain me why Pelasgians ¨Greek forefathers¨ fought against greeks in the war of Troy beeing the allies of Trojans,Thracians & Dardanians?Didn t all the greeks unite in this war? Why Pelasgians were not in greek s side??

MOESAN
21-05-12, 22:40
Can please someone explain me why Pelasgians ¨Greek forefathers¨ fought against greeks in the war of Troy beeing the allies of Trojans,Thracians & Dardanians?Didn t all the greeks unite in this war? Why Pelasgians were not in greek s side?? I don'tn know if it could help but a majority of scholars (according to B.SERGENT) seam considering DARDANI as branch of I-E Anatolians, maybe Louwitians, and pushed by Phrygians/Brygians and Thracians into Anatolia (as was been Hittites) for some of them and into Greece for some others of them (Pelasgians) - So Dardani in Illyrians lands could be a "lost tribe" incorporated in the lllyrian territory - it seams to someones that Dardani was the founders of Troia 1 and so it would not be astonishing if Pelasgians from same stock fought against Greeks in the war of Greece against Troia (even if that occurred long time after the founder of Troia 1 ?) I MAID apparently A MISTAKE IN ANOTHER POST ON ANOTHER THREAD when associating Dalmatia and old Illyria (and Y-I2a1b) - what could be said is that the roman Illyricum is by far too large to describe genuine Illyria - for linguists the illyrian language concerning phonetics should be close to thracian-dacian (çatem) and messapian? AND also to albanian - they insist for a complete difference from ancient venetian languages (closer to italic) -

Yetos
22-05-12, 01:01
Can please someone explain me why Pelasgians ¨Greek forefathers¨ fought against greeks in the war of Troy beeing the allies of Trojans,Thracians & Dardanians?Didn t all the greeks unite in this war? Why Pelasgians were not in greek s side??

At the time of Troyan war nationalities had nothing to do with today meaning,

with the term Pelasgian we describe a non IE culture but that does not mean a country-nation or a state as today,
to understand better try to get in sociaety and political of 'Peloponesian wars' by thoukidides and then you realize better,

well the start of the war it was not Helen the charming woman but the Milletus wars (millawata) as described in Hettit archaiology scrolls,
it seems like Pelasgians when Hettits enter minor Asia start piracy and Myceneans and Minyans start to resist,

the term Greek is not correct for Troyan war, neither the term Pelasgian,
it was Myceneans and its allies with Troyans and its allies
although by today we recogn that Myceneans were IE and proto Greeks,

now about Greeks the terminology is exonyme, given by Italians and as endonyme is tribal name or a class name of Priests of Dodona and their cities near Kyme -Cyme
Greek unification movement or identification started at 900-800 BC by unifing Pelasgians with IE
Starting point is consider the death of Kodros king of Athens,
allthough the correct word is Hellenes instead of Greeks either by Pelasgian El-La (sun-stones, Holy stones)
either by IE Ell-eron (Eel river people, cheli-nioi -> Hellenes)

the psychology of the Troyan war is not like modern wars.


Personally i consider Troyans as Hatians not Pelasgians
I mean the family name is Hatians and sub-tribes are
Troyans
Pelasgians
Etruscans
Lycaonians
etc

zanipolo
22-05-12, 11:54
I don'tn know if it could help but a majority of scholars (according to B.SERGENT) seam considering DARDANI as branch of I-E Anatolians, maybe Louwitians, and pushed by Phrygians/Brygians and Thracians into Anatolia (as was been Hittites) for some of them and into Greece for some others of them (Pelasgians) - So Dardani in Illyrians lands could be a "lost tribe" incorporated in the lllyrian territory - it seams to someones that Dardani was the founders of Troia 1 and so it would not be astonishing if Pelasgians from same stock fought against Greeks in the war of Greece against Troia (even if that occurred long time after the founder of Troia 1 ?) I MAID apparently A MISTAKE IN ANOTHER POST ON ANOTHER THREAD when associating Dalmatia and old Illyria (and Y-I2a1b) - what could be said is that the roman Illyricum is by far too large to describe genuine Illyria - for linguists the illyrian language concerning phonetics should be close to thracian-dacian (çatem) and messapian? AND also to albanian - they insist for a complete difference from ancient venetian languages (closer to italic) -

the Dardanians of troy and of the balkans are not related
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_%28Trojan%29

I actually think that the Dalmatians are the only true Illyrians, history says the southern illyrian border was the netreva river, then about 400BC they ( illyrians) marched south and where stopped at the drin river by the macedonians of Phillip II and alexander the great. The border was fixed, the macedonians reached the adriatic and then went south to conquer greece and later the persians.
There was no more major illyrian/macedonian wars, the illyrians did not participate in the invasion of persia by the macedonians.

Dalmat
22-05-12, 13:13
the Dardanians of troy and of the balkans are not related
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan)

I actually think that the Dalmatians are the only true Illyrians, history says the southern illyrian border was the netreva river, then about 400BC they ( illyrians) marched south and where stopped at the drin river by the macedonians of Phillip II and alexander the great. The border was fixed, the macedonians reached the adriatic and then went south to conquer greece and later the persians.
There was no more major illyrian/macedonian wars, the illyrians did not participate in the invasion of persia by the macedonians.


Interesting that we always had a saying: "push the Serbs back over the Drin river!" LOL

BTW, Dalmatians are pure Croats, because from regions of Dalmatia and Herzegovina, Croat name and rule spread northwards into Panonia, eventually calling it Panonian Croatia.


Most of the Croat "ruler cities"(where rulers resided) are here, it was after succumbing to Turks, and Venetians, after being attack from practically all sides, name was changed back to Roman Dalmatia, while Croatian name remained up north where political union with Hungary happen, losing the "Panonian" in the name.

Endri
22-05-12, 19:08
Interesting that we always had a saying: "push the Serbs back over the Drin river!" LOL

BTW, Dalmatians are pure Croats, because from regions of Dalmatia and Herzegovina, Croat name and rule spread northwards into Panonia, eventually calling it Panonian Croatia.


Most of the Croat "ruler cities"(where rulers resided) are here, it was after succumbing to Turks, and Venetians, after being attack from practically all sides, name was changed back to Roman Dalmatia, while Croatian name remained up north where political union with Hungary happen, losing the "Panonian" in the name.

I highly doubt that anything in the Balkans in pure, so i doubt Dalmatians are pure Croatians, now or even more in the medieval times.

If the Croatians nation was first created in the Dalmatia region it most likely means that the ruling class on that region was Croat/Slavic nothing more nothing less and if Croats gave up so easily on it, it means that they most likely had another "homeland" where to yield back and/or that Dalmatia was a newly conquered or settled land that was of none or little "sentimental" value for the Croats of that time period...

Dalmat
22-05-12, 19:26
I highly doubt that anything in the Balkans in pure, so i doubt Dalmatians are pure Croatians, now or even more in the medieval times.

If the Croatians nation was first created in the Dalmatia region it most likely means that the ruling class on that region was Croat/Slavic nothing more nothing less and if Croats gave up so easily on it, it means that they most likely had another "homeland" where to yield back and/or that Dalmatia was a newly conquered or settled land that was of none or little "sentimental" value for the Croats of that time period...


LOL, you forgot to take your daily meds?

Endri
22-05-12, 20:35
LOL, you forgot to take your daily meds?

Yea, thanks for reminding me...where would i be without you?

I owe you my life, literally...

LeBrok
23-05-12, 02:25
LOL, you forgot to take your daily meds?
Tone down your posts. Attacking members of Eupedia or their nationality is strictly forbidden.

Dalmat
23-05-12, 03:26
I highly doubt that anything in the Balkans in pure, so i doubt Dalmatians are pure Croatians, now or even more in the medieval times.

If the Croatians nation was first created in the Dalmatia region it most likely means that the ruling class on that region was Croat/Slavic nothing more nothing less and if Croats gave up so easily on it, it means that they most likely had another "homeland" where to yield back and/or that Dalmatia was a newly conquered or settled land that was of none or little "sentimental" value for the Croats of that time period...


So being there as Croatia for 600-700 has no sentimental value, as well as most of our early independent history, structures and artifacts?
Trol somebody else, name was change for political reasons, to separate us from the rest, and its not like we could chose.

History is much more complex, because prior to Otoman invasion there was turmoil in country, where our nobles and lords fought each other and separated as we lost the King, so we became separated.

Divided and conquered unfortunately

MOESAN
25-05-12, 00:02
well Dardani are considered as Illyro-Thracian, not pure Illyrian, not pure Thracian,
the case of Troy is suggested by many, but we know troy was a naval people, like etruscans, and not inland like thracians,
the myth gives that Dardanos left Thebes to troy
and not Dardania to Troy, neither from Troy to Dardania, but from troy to Etruria
but makes clear that Chaon was from troy, Chaonia is area so far and so near at southwest of Dardania,
Chaonians are considered Pelasgian, non IE pop that were assimilated by Illyrians and Greeks (especially makedonians)

Without any personal judgement I recall the position of B. SERGENT (based himself on compilations of other scholars,) that Dardanii could be of Louwite origin, of the same cultural stock of I-E Hittites and other "anatolian" I-Eans, and that, pushed on their back by other I-Eans (Thracians and Co) on Western Black Sea shores they passed in Anatolia, founding Troia 1 for a part of them when an other part of them went into Greece where they were known under the name of Pelasgians (other tribes with them under the same collective name: I don't know).

Dianatomia
25-05-12, 22:54
Can please someone explain me why Pelasgians ¨Greek forefathers¨ fought against greeks in the war of Troy beeing the allies of Trojans,Thracians & Dardanians?Didn t all the greeks unite in this war? Why Pelasgians were not in greek s side??

There were no "Greeks" fighting against the Trojans, no more than there were "Trojans" fighting against the "Greeks". Some tribes, faught against some other tribes. Simple as that. There was not really a 'Greek' side. Rather an Achaean side, which is a generic term for Myceneans. We call them Greek from a retrospective point of view. Being that they were Greek speakers.

The name Pelasgian was given by the proto-Greeks to the indigenous people of their world, but that says little about their 'ethnicity'.

As for the Paeonians, the modern inhabitants which share the same habitat as the Paeonians, the Macedonian Slavs, cluster closest to Bulgarians. They however absorbed a lot of Thracians, but no Dardanians. It's hard to tell though to what extent the Macedonian Slavs share common decent with indigenous peoples from antiquity. Many Slavs who settled that region could already have absorbed Thracians during their migration routes.

MOESAN
03-06-12, 23:03
the Dardanians of troy and of the balkans are not related
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_(Trojan) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dardanians_%28Trojan%29)

I actually think that the Dalmatians are the only true Illyrians, history says the southern illyrian border was the netreva river, then about 400BC they ( illyrians) marched south and where stopped at the drin river by the macedonians of Phillip II and alexander the great. The border was fixed, the macedonians reached the adriatic and then went south to conquer greece and later the persians.
There was no more major illyrian/macedonian wars, the illyrians did not participate in the invasion of persia by the macedonians.

I beg your pardon because I affirmed that SERGENT considered Dardanians of Trojad as linguistically close to Louwites... He was not so affirmative and said the question was very unclear: cultural influence (material) of Louwites, but not sure for the language - he seams considering them as members of a language group (satem) that gave birth to related illyrian, dacian-moesian, thracian and later albanian language: Dardanians supposed by him & others as came down from Morava valley and situated between Thraces and Illyrians in South Balkans, north of Greece for the bulk of them, only a part passed to western Anatolia where they became diluted...so, if not specifically Illyrians, people akin to them -
He think Albanians came from East, from a stock close to this linguistical block, and that they found the seaside lands (Adriatic sea) of present day Albania occuped by an early tribe of Slavs (I'm not competent to judge) -
according to him, the two Dardanians peoples should be of the same origin (I have no opinion for now)

zanipolo
04-06-12, 09:12
I beg your pardon because I affirmed that SERGENT considered Dardanians of Trojad as linguistically close to Louwites... He was not so affirmative and said the question was very unclear: cultural influence (material) of Louwites, but not sure for the language - he seams considering them as members of a language group (satem) that gave birth to related illyrian, dacian-moesian, thracian and later albanian language: Dardanians supposed by him & others as came down from Morava valley and situated between Thraces and Illyrians in South Balkans, north of Greece for the bulk of them, only a part passed to western Anatolia where they became diluted...so, if not specifically Illyrians, people akin to them -
He think Albanians came from East, from a stock close to this linguistical block, and that they found the seaside lands (Adriatic sea) of present day Albania occuped by an early tribe of Slavs (I'm not competent to judge) -
according to him, the two Dardanians peoples should be of the same origin (I have no opinion for now)

in regards to dardanians, let consider this
1- If dardanians in kosovo are same as dardanians in anatolia and some scholars say that these dardanians where illyrians, then that says illyrians where in anatolia ............i disagree with this

2- If dardanians in kosovo are same as dardanians in anatolia and some scholars say that these dardanians where thracians, then these thracians where in anatolia ............i agree with this

3- If dardanians in kosovo are same as dardanians in anatolia and that these dardanians where epirotes, then where these epirotes in anatolia ?............i disagree with this

4 - where dardanians something else

5 - where these 2 dardanians people not related.

In regards Albanians, the lands where initially owned by epirote and hellenic people as far as the drin river. The macedonians of Philip II conquered them ( actually a forced annexation by marriage) .
Did the albanians come in with these macedonians is a question to be asked.

Diurpaneus
04-06-12, 17:51
in regards to dardanians, let consider this
1- If dardanians in kosovo are same as dardanians in anatolia and some scholars say that these dardanians where illyrians, then that says illyrians where in anatolia ............i disagree with this

2- If dardanians in kosovo are same as dardanians in anatolia and some scholars say that these dardanians where thracians, then these thracians where in anatolia ............i agree with this

3- If dardanians in kosovo are same as dardanians in anatolia and that these dardanians where epirotes, then where these epirotes in anatolia ?............i disagree with this

4 - where dardanians something else

5 - where these 2 dardanians people not related.

In regards Albanians, the lands where initially owned by epirote and hellenic people as far as the drin river. The macedonians of Philip II conquered them ( actually a forced annexation by marriage) .
Did the albanians come in with these macedonians is a question to be asked.


There's no doubt,during the Bronze Age collapse, the Lower Danube tribes moved into Mycenian Greece and Anatolia.
Danubian pottery has been discovered in those areas, at the destruction level.
Not to mention that Thracian,Greek,Phrygian and Armenian share a certain number of similarities,although separated by Centum-Satem division.
Wheather the invasions were the cause or the consequence of social,political instability in the Eastern Mediterranean basin it's less significant.
This event had a major impact in forming certain ethnic groups.
There were two migration paths:following western Black Sea coast line and the Morava,Vardar valleys to Thessaly.


Moving to speculations :

Moesi, Thracian tribe from so called Daco-Moesian group
Mysians,Anatolian tribe
Muski, the name used by the Assyrians to describe Phrygians.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brnjica_culture


http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0241/2006/0350-02410656073S.pdf


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki

Yetos
04-06-12, 22:23
There's no doubt,during the Bronze Age collapse, the Lower Danube tribes moved into Mycenian Greece and Anatolia.
Danubian pottery has been discovered in those areas, at the destruction level.
Not to mention that Thracian,Greek,Phrygian and Armenian share a certain number of similarities,although separated by Centum-Satem division.
Wheather the invasions were the cause or the consequence of social,political instability in the Eastern Mediterranean basin it's less significant.
This event had a major impact in forming certain ethnic groups.
There were two migration paths:following western Black Sea coast line and the Morava,Vardar valleys to Thessaly.


Moving to speculations :

Moesi, Thracian tribe from so called Daco-Moesian group
Mysians,Anatolian tribe
Muski, the name used by the Assyrians to describe Phrygians.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brnjica_culture


http://www.doiserbia.nb.rs/img/doi/0350-0241/2006/0350-02410656073S.pdf


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mushki

Sorry, with all respect I believe the oposite,
I personally believe that kurgan and cucuteni are from minor Asia, who enter Danube and black sea,
perhaps you are following the Kurgan hypothesis but even kurgan admits that myceneans were from minor Asia,
the problem is Thracians who according Kurgan Greco-aryan Anatolian-farmers and armenian Hypothesis is either minor Asian IE either North Hunters IE.

Diurpaneus
05-06-12, 11:40
Yetos,I'm talking about Dorians,not Myceneans.
"1200 BC" was a big moment:Central European tribes of Tumulus culture from the West,and "Cimmerians" of Srubna culture from the East put a lot of pressure on Lower Danube tribes,some of them migrating south.
So these events triggered a chain reaction: this can be seen in all the movements from the"Bronze Age Collapse".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse

Yetos
05-06-12, 13:02
Yetos,I'm talking about Dorians,not Myceneans.
"1200 BC" was a big moment:Central European tribes of Tumulus culture from the West,and "Cimmerians" of Srubna culture from the East put a lot of pressure on Lower Danube tribes,some of them migrating south.
So these events triggered a chain reaction: this can be seen in all the movements from the"Bronze Age Collapse".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze_Age_collapse


well that is the case, the majority of scientist and people believe that Dorians were Northrn people but history and archaiology proves that were Greeks, Dorians are connected with Thessaly and Makedonia and are considered the sons of Τημενος, their primary land was Trikke (modern Τρικαλα)

wiki link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenus


Dorian devastation or else the return of the Temenides is the final prevail of Greeks against Pelasgians, and a restoration of rulling class

dorian language as survived in isolated areas is a 'rough' sound Greek dialect which follows the rythm of ancient poetry with iambic meters (7/12/15)

example is the Ξ which is Z (x->z), Σ that pronounced as E (s-.e)

half of Dorian dialect changes exist also in Epirotans
the myth of North invasion to Greece at the iron era and copper era is after Kurgan hypothesis, which in area around Greece is a total failure,
and Anatolian Hypothesis seems stronger, which above Danube is a failure.

Dorians from Danube is a must to Kurgan hypothesis, but as you see never happened,
fact we have the opposite
the only Northern migration-Devastation if happened to Greece (except Slavic) is the R1a of the area known that was Dorian capital but genetically it happened 5500 BC
personally I believe that Thracians also 'invade' but as workers peasants marriages etc a slowly mix and assimilation

MOESAN
06-06-12, 23:12
well that is the case, the majority of scientist and people believe that Dorians were Northrn people but history and archaiology proves that were Greeks, Dorians are connected with Thessaly and Makedonia and are considered the sons of Τημενος, their primary land was Trikke (modern Τρικαλα)

wiki link

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temenus


Dorian devastation or else the return of the Temenides is the final prevail of Greeks against Pelasgians, and a restoration of rulling class

dorian language as survived in isolated areas is a 'rough' sound Greek dialect which follows the rythm of ancient poetry with iambic meters (7/12/15)

example is the Ξ which is Z (x->z), Σ that pronounced as E (s-.e)

half of Dorian dialect changes exist also in Epirotans
the myth of North invasion to Greece at the iron era and copper era is after Kurgan hypothesis, which in area around Greece is a total failure,
and Anatolian Hypothesis seems stronger, which above Danube is a failure.

Dorians from Danube is a must to Kurgan hypothesis, but as you see never happened,
fact we have the opposite
the only Northern migration-Devastation if happened to Greece (except Slavic) is the R1a of the area known that was Dorian capital but genetically it happened 5500 BC
personally I believe that Thracians also 'invade' but as workers peasants marriages etc a slowly mix and assimilation

whatever the linguistic appartenance, the anthropological metrical surveys showed at the Dorians times a change in the phenotypical distributions in Greece (notably more brachycephalics of two sorts, 'alpine' & 'dinaric')- so a movement because pressure selection or interne evolution don't go so quickly - it is possible that the part of the new human stock came either from the North Epirus or a little farther North (today Macedonia) - just a point -

Skylax79
23-06-12, 16:06
Είναι η πρώτη φορά που κοινοποιώ διαλογό μου σε αυτό το τόπικ και παρακαλώ πολύ τους Έλληνες φίλους όπως με βοηθήσουν. Δηλώνω κατηγορηματικά ότι θα χρησιμοποιώ μόνον την ελληνική μητρική μου γλώσσα ενώ μπορεί να χρησιμοποιήσω και την αρβανίτικη διάλεκτο που την έχω μάθει αρκετά καλά απο την γιαγιά μου πρός αποφυγή εριστικών αλβανικών προκλήσεων. Παρακαλώ πολύ τους Έλληνες φίλους εάν δεν τους είναι δύσκολο να κάνουν αγγλική μετάφραση στα κειμενά μου. Με Αλβανό δεν πρόκειται ποτέ να έρθω σε διάλογο δι ότι απαξιώ έναν πεινασμένο που ονειρεύεται καρβέλια, αναφέρω ότι είναι γνωστοί οι κύκλοι τους και αν έισαι εκπαιδευμένος με δαύτους τους εντοπίζεις γιατί παρουσιάζουν και λένε τα ίδια. Εν τούτις λοιπόν θέλω να δώσω μια απάντηση στον γελοίο που παρέθεσε εικόνες απο το λεξικό του γεωγράφου Στεφάνου Βυζαντίου που χαρακτηρίζει ηπειρωτικές περιοχές οσάν "υλλιρικές". Την εποχή του Στεφάνου Βυζαντίου η Ήπειρος είχε μετονομαστεί σε ανατολικό Υλλιρικό ενώ ολόκληρη η Ελλάδα σε Μακεδονία. Τα αρχαία χρόνια η βαλκανική χερσόνησος ονομαζόταν χερσόνησος Αίμου η Θρακική η Υλλιρική. Κατά τον Χάμοντ η αρχαία Ελλάς αποτελούταν απο το Αιγαίο και τη Μακεδονία (εννοούσε κι την ήπειρο μαζί) Πολλές φορές απο την εποχή της ρωμαικής αυτοκρατορίας και έπειτα αλλάζανε τα σύνορα στίς επαρχίες στην κατεχόμενη αρχαία Ελλάδα. Ένα παράδειγμα να φέρω στο οτι η Θράκη (περιοχή του αρχαίου βασιλείου των Οδρυσών) στο 10ο μ.Χ αιώνα οι Βυζαντινοί το είχαν μετονομάσει σε μακεδονικό θέμα. Ακόμη χειρότερα για τους Αλβανούς (τους αναφερει καυκάσιους) είναι και οι αναφορές απο τον περιηγητή του 19ου αιώνα Φραγκίσκου Πουκεβίλ που τις περιοχές της Πελαγονίας μέχρι την Κορυτσά της αναφέρει σαν Μακεδονική Υλλιρία. Ζητώ συγνώμη που δε παραθέτω πλήρως τις πηγές μου αλλά σύντομα θα αρ΄χοισω να το κάνω. Χτυπάτε τους όπου τους βρίσκετε. Το δυνατότερο χτυπημα να το δίνετε εκεί που πονάνε λεγοντάς τους οτρι γραφλη στρη χώρα τους δεν υπήρχε οπότε τα πάντα που εικάζουν είναι υποθετικά. Σας χαιρε΄τω όλους φίλους-φίλες Έλληνες - Ελληνίδες και υπόσχομαι πλήρης διαφάνεια.

Skylax79
23-06-12, 16:18
H σημαντικότερη υπόθεση είναι η μελέτη της περιοχής της Πελαγονίας και πιο συγκεκριμένα για το αρχαίο μακεδονικό βασίλειο των Λυγκιστιδών όπου ο ηγεμονικός οίκος τους κρατo;yσε απο την Κόρινθο και ήταν Βακχιάδες. Οι Λύγκιστες βρίσκονταν μεταξύ Δασσαριτών Μολοσσών και Μακεδόνων νότια της Πελαγονίας, σημερίνη Φλώρινα μέχρι νότια της Κορυτσάς. Θα ήθελα να ποστάρω άπειρους χάρτες της ρωμαικής αυτοκρατορίας δεν μου επιτρέπεται όμως ακόμη. Το σιγουρότερο απ όλα είναι οτι η Ήπειρος δεν έιχε κάμμια σχέση με την Υλλιρία και αυτό το ξεκαθαρίζει ο Στράβωνας. Το φυσικό όριο των δυο χωρών ήταν ο ποταμός Γενούσος ή η Εγνατία όδος (VIA EGNATIA) στα ρωμαικά χρόνια.

Taranis
23-06-12, 16:26
Welcome to Eupedia, Skylax. I would advise you to post in English, please, since most people who are on this board cannot speak or read Greek.

Skylax79
23-06-12, 16:29
Οι Δωριείς ήταν ελληνικότατο φύλο. Σε αυτό δε χωρά καμμία αμφιβολία. Μάλιστα στις πρώιμες εποχές της Λακεδαίμονας κατά τη περίοδο των μεσσηνιακών πολέμων οι Σπαρτιάτες Βασιλιάδες προσπαθούσαν να ταυτίσουν τις ρίζες τους με τους Αχαιούς βασιλιάδες. Το ότι έιχαν κάποια δειναρική επίδραση (υλλιρική) διαφαίνεται στο οτι τους νεκρούς τους τους καίγανε (κάτι που δε κάνανε οι υπόλοιποι Έλληνες) η παρουσίαζαν στα αγαλματά τους πρόσωπα με μύτη γριπή. Αυτό όμως έγινε την περίοδο που άρχισε να υπάρχει μια πληθυσμιακή σύμπντιξη όταν οι μεσογειακές φυλές του βορρά που εγκαταστάθηκαν στην Πίνδο άρχισαν να μετακινούνται νοτιότερα και μιλάμε γύρω στα 1500 π.Χ. Δε μπορούμε όμως να πούμε οτι η Δωριείς ήταν κατά βάση φυλή Υλλιρική. Κάθε άλλο. Οι μεσογειακές φυλές ε΄χαν απλωθεί τόσο πολύ στον ευρωπαικό χώρο όπου ακόμη και σήμερα βλέπουμε οτι αυτοί οι αρχαίοι μας πρόγονοι άφησαν ισχυρά στίγματα στους υπόλοιπους ευρωπαικούς λαούς. Οι Υλλιριοί ήταν ένας ασήμαντος λαός χωρίς γραφή και ιδιαίτερα πολιτισμικά ευρύματα όπου εμφανίζονται συνήθως σαν βάρβαρος και ληστής. Ο μόνος βασιλιάς που αναφέρεται σαν καθ' όλα Υλλιριός ήταν ο Βαρδύλις όπου και για ένα διάστημα πολύ μικρό βασίλεψε τη Μακεδονία.

MOESAN
23-06-12, 23:22
Are you the idiot who thinks E-V13 is an indigenous European haplogroup?

Are you serious? Do you know that it's an African branch. That every person with an E-V13 haplogroup had a pure black African ancestor? This is fact. There's no, maybe our ancestor was Neanderthal or some other hominid, your ancestor was black from Africa.

Europe was colonized way before E-V13 even came to existence. You were still in Africa singing your tribal songs and doing tribal dances, without any weapons or shelter. You probably lived as nomads because you weren't smart enough to build shelter.

Now shut your stupid mouth and come back to reality.

Europe was colonized way before E-V13 arrived.

Are you so dumb that you can't see this?


late answer
sorry, but your way of adressing to somebody seams to me a naughty child's one, even if I am not the victim - you can express your disaccord in a more respectable way, I think -
and what is this contempt about some peoples and ways of life ?
E1b-V13 is surely in Europe for a long time, even if I can not assign it a precise date (maybe Mesololithic: some Grimaldoids? no sure but?) and the regions of Europe where Y-E1b bearers OF ALL SORTS are found do not show to evident negroid features, for I know: some remnants perhaps, but very very tiny - do not forget N-E Africans was very far from an achieved negroid type, and that somehow ALL OUR ANCESTORS or the bulk of them came from Africa - and it is proved that there have been some "go & return" between N-Africa and Eurasia, and old enough for someones of them! (Y-DNA and mt DNA)
even in the so called South-saharian autosomals I believe there are ones of eurasian origin

Eldritch
23-06-12, 23:36
E-V13 is probably oldest in Europe than both R1a and R1b.
Probably a proto-caucasoid HG.

Skylax79
24-06-12, 13:37
Aristotle for Epirotes
"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous, a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes.".This is in agreement with Herodotus who states that Dodona was "in Hellas", but this does not mean that all Epirus was in Hellas. Strabo is also in agreement in stating that among lands which were "indisputably Greece" included "parts above Acarnania and Aetolia". (Book 7.7)


​Greek origin of ancient Epirotes by William MitfordEpirus, though mostly held by people of Grecian speech and lineage, had an intermixture of those called barbarians; Illyrians, and perhaps others. Herodotus however, among earliest, and Plutarch, among late ancient historians, clearly reckon the Molossians a Grecian people. Some expressions of Thucydides and Strabo may perhaps be construed either way. But, as it has been formerly observed, Herodotus, Thucydides, and Strabo concur in showing that all Greece was of mixed population; and how the distinction of Greek and barbarian, unknown to Homer, arose, and what at last it was, always remained uncertain. Strabo however, clearly acknowledging the Macedonian for a Greek nation, assures us that the general language of the Epirots was the Macedonian dialect of the Greek; that where another language, probably the Illyric, was in use, the people commonly spoke both, and that, in habits and manners, most of the Epirots hardly differed from the Macedonians.

The governments of the Epirotan states were, some Republican with annual chief magistrates, as at Athens, Thebes, and Rome; others monarchal. That of Molossis, from earliest tradition, was monarchal; and whether the people may have been more or less allowed the always questionable dignity of pure Grecian blood, yet the claim of the royal family to the oldest and noblest Grecian origin, resting on tradition, but asserted by Straho and Plutarch, with Aristotle’s assent implied, is not found anywhere controverted. They reckoned themselves direct descendants ofNeoptolemus Pyrrhus, son of Achilles; who, it was said, ‘” after the Trojan war, migrating from Thessaly, became king of Molossis, Whatever credit may be due to this lofty pretension, that the Molossian sceptre remained in one Greek family, from times beyond certain history till after Aristotle’s age, appears satisfactorily testified.

By advantage of situation and constitution, exempt from great troubles, Molossis, had it had historians, probably afforded little for general interest. Nevertheless we learn from the father of Grecian history that, some generations before his time, it was esteemed respectable among Grecian states. The tale wherein this appears, like many of that writer, somewhat of a romantic cast, nevertheless may have been true in all its parts; and for the information it affords of an important change of manners and policy among the Greeks, and of the florishing condition of several republics about the age of the Athenian legislator Solon, some destroyed before the historian wrote, others little heard of since, while Molossis apparently remained unshaken, it maybe reckoned of considerable historical value.

Clisthenes, tyrant of Sicyon, under whose rule that little state was eminent among those of Peloponnesus,’ desiring, the historian says, to marry his daughter to a man of the greatest consideration and highest worth of all Greece, opened his house for any who, from personal dignity and the eminence of their countries, might have pretensions; that so he might have oppor¬tunity to estimate their merits. Thirteen guests, rivals for his favor, are thus described. There came from the Greek colonies in Italy, then florishing extraordinarily, Smindyrides of Sybaris and Damas of Siris. The former was remarked for going beyond all of his time in the luxury for which Sybaris was renowned. Damas was son of that Samyris who was distinguished by the epithet of the Wise. Am-phimnestus came from Epidamnus, on the coast of the Ionian gulf. Males was of Aetolia, brother of Titormus, esteemed the strongest man in Greece, but who had withdrawn from the society of men to reside in the farthest part of Aetolia.3 Leocedes was son of Phi don, tyrant of Argos; that Phidon, says the historian, who established uniformity of weights and measures throughout Peloponnesus, and, together with his power, (so far, it may seem, bene¬ficially exerted,) was remarked for an arrogance unequalled among the Greeks; for, depriving the Eleans of the presidency of the Olympian festival, he assumed it himself. Two came from Arcadia, Amiantus of Trapezus, and Laphanes of Paros. The father of the latter, Euphorion, was celebrated for his extensive. hospitality, and had the extraordinary fame of having entertained the gods Castor and Pollux. Lysanias came from Eretria in Euboea, then greatly florishing; Onomastus from Elea: Megacles and Hippoclides were of Athens; the latter esteemed the richest Athenian of his time, and the handsomest: Diactondes was of Cranon and Scopada? in Thessaly; Alcon was of Molossis. This simple description of Alcon, combined with what has preceded, enough marks that the Molossians were esteemed a Grecian people, and Molossis then considerable among the Grecian states. One of the Athenians, Megacles, was the successful suitor.

“The history of Greece”, by lord Redesdale By William Mitford

Skylax79
24-06-12, 13:38
"The deluge in the time of Deucalion, for instance, took place chiefly in the Greek world and in it especially about ancient Hellas, the country about Dodona and the Achelous,a river which has often changed its course. Here the Selli dwelt and those who were formerly called Graeci and now Hellenes.".This is in agreement with Herodotus who states that Dodona was "in Hellas", but this does not mean that all Epirus was in Hellas. Strabo is also in agreement in stating that among lands which were "indisputably Greece" included "parts above Acarnania and Aetolia". (Book 7.7.1)

Skylax79
24-06-12, 13:49

“Speakers of these various Greek dialects settled different parts of Greece at differenttimes during the Middle Bronze Age,
with one group, the “northwest” Greeks,developing their own dialect and peopling central Epirus. This was the origin of the Molossian or Epirotic tribes
.”E.N.Borza “In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon” (revisededition, 1992), page 62the
western greek people (with affinities to the Epirotic tribes) in Orestis, Lyncus,and parts of Pelagonia
;“In the shadow of Olympus..” By Eugene Borza, page 74 “We have seen that the “Makedones” or “highlanders” of mountainous westernMacedonia may have been derived from northwest Greek stock. That is, northwestGreece provided a pool of Indo-European speakers of proto-Greek from whichemerged the tribes who were later known by different names as they established theirregional identities in separate parts of the country. Thus the Macedonians may havebeen related to those peoples who at an earlier time migrated south to become thehistorical Dorians, and to other Pindus tribes who were the ancestors of the Epirotesor Molossians.
If it were known that Macedonian was a proper dialect of Greek,like the dialects spoken by Dorians and Molossians
, we would be on much firmerground in this hypothesis.”E.N.Borza “In the shadow of Olympus; The emergence of Macedon” (revised edition,1992), page 78“When Amyntas became king of the Macedonians sometime during the latter third of the sixth century, he controlled a territory that included the central Macedonian plainand its peripheral foothills, the Pierian coastal plain beneath Mt. Olympus, andperhaps the fertile, mountain-encircled plain of Almopia. To the south lay the Greeks

Skylax79
24-06-12, 14:01
Albanian Propaganda from Illyrian.org

Quote:


Epirus-Cameria and Phyrros ,but how come that Romans didn't identify Epirots as Greeks? Why Greek historians tend to hellenize everything? The region of Epirus by most of the facts that ancient historians have given to us seems to be a non Greek region:



Our friend mentions Roman historians and attempts to accuse the Hellenic scholars of Hellenizing everything but he conveniently neglects to present a single quote by a Roman that would suggest otherwise, instead he distorts and due to ignorance jumps to conclusions that would suit his propaganda objective.

Quote:


1)”Thucydides” In his book (Peloponnesian War) He describes the Barbarian Allies of the Peloponnesians.............



True, Thucydides classifies the Chaones and Thesprotoi as 'barbarians' but as Charles Anthon in his 'System of Ancient and Medieval Geography' clarifies, Illyrian irruptions had partly barbarized (obviously culturally) the region hence why we see the difference between the account of Thucydides to the earlier one of Herodotus. A Herodotus, who not only titles Thesprotia as a Hellenic land, but also suggests that the Thessalians (a purely Hellenic people) "came from Thesprotia to dwell in the Aeolian land," book 7.176.4, which indicates that the people were also considered as such.


Quote:


2)"Skylaks" He writes around (370-360 b.c) A Geographic book.

He describes the People that lives in Adriatic and Ionian region.

"In The North Adriatic lives the tribe of the Liburnians,

"The middle and the South Adriatic sea Is Populated By Illyrians"

"The Ionian sea is devided Between Chaones and Thesprotes. between them The Mollosians have opened an exit to the sea which is (40 stadia = 8Km).""After Mollosia it comes Ambracia an Hellenic Polis, which is (80 stadia) away from the sea"




Scylax wrote his Periplous, but it has little to do with the claims made. Since he clearly differentiates the above mentioned tribes from the Illyrians:

Quote:


Europe 1.28

ΧΑΟΝΕΣ. Μετὰ δὲ Ἰλλυριοὺς Χάονες. Ἡ δὲ Χαονία ἐστὶν εὐλίμενος· οἰκοῦσι δὲ κατὰ κώμας οἱ Χάονες. Παράπλους δ' ἐστὶ Χαονίας ἥμισυ ἡμέρας.

translation

CHAONES. AFTER the Illyrians, Chaonians. Chaonia has good harbours: the Chaonians live in villages. And the coastal voyage of Chaonia is a half of a day



Besides the fact that the Chaones and those after them while moving Southward are desribed as a distinct people non-related to the Illyrians, its obvious that the previously noted Illyrian irruptions had played a major role on how they were perceived. This is evident from the fact that although the
Thesprotoi which are as mentioned in Herodotus to be Hellenic and the clear reference to the River Acheron, which is related to Hellenic culture, traditions and mythology is made, Scylax stressed that they, the Chaones, the Kassopians and the Molossoi all lived in villages (κατὰ κώμας) unlike the Ambrakians which lived in a city.
Of course neither can the reference to ἔθνος (nation) be used as an argument, since not only are the Magnesians titled as such, but even the Acheans, which indicates that this isn't an ethnic reference but rather a tribal one.

Quote:


3)Plutarch-----------(Pyrrhus)------------

He was raised as an Illyrian Prince:

The Brotherhood between him and Glaucias sons:



Since when are relations between kingdoms which in this case are neighboring considered an indication of descent :wacko:
This reminds me of our friend Megalommatis' argument that the Myceneans weren't Hellenic because they had paid a visit to the Hittite king. :lol:

Plutarch clarifies his linage and gives us info on why the Epirotes, although Hellenic in origin were perceived as a 'backward':
Quote:


The Life of Pyrrhus 1

χρόνῳ δ' ὕστερον Νεοπτόλεμος ὁ Ἀχιλλέως λαὸν ἀγαγὼν αὐτός τε τὴν χώραν κατέσχε, καὶ διαδοχὴν βασιλέων ἀφ' αὑτοῦ κατέλιπε,Πυρρίδας ἐπικαλουμένους· καὶ γὰρ αὐτῷ Πύρρος ἦν παιδικὸν ἐπωνύμιον, καὶ τῶν γνησίων παίδων ἐκ Λανάςσης τῆς Κλεοδαίου τοῦ Ὕλλου γενομένων ἕνα Πύρρον ὠνόμασεν. ἐκ τούτου δὲ καὶ Ἀχιλλεὺς ἐν Ἠπείρῳ τιμὰς ἰσοθέους ἔσχεν, Ἄσπετος ἐπιχωρίῳ φωνῇ προσαγορευόμενος. μετὰ δὲ τοὺς πρώτους τῶν διὰ μέσου βασιλέων ἐκβαρβαρωθέντων καὶ γενομένων τῇ τε δυνάμει καὶ τοῖς βίοις ἀμαυροτέρων, Θαρρύπαν πρῶτον ἱστοροῦσιν Ἑλληνικοῖς ἔθεσι καὶ γράμμασι καὶ νόμοις φιλανθρώποις διακοσμήσαντα τὰς πόλεις ὀνομαστὸν γενέσθαι.

translation


In after time, however, Neoptolemus the son of Achilles, bringing a people with him, got possession of the country for himself, and left a line of kings descending from him. These were called after him Pyrrhidae; for he had the surname of Pyrrhus in his boyhood, and of his legitimate children by Lanassa, the daughter of Cleodaeus the son of Hyllus, one was named by him Pyrrhus. Consequently Achilles also obtained divine honours in Epeirus, under the native name of Aspetus. But the kings who followed in this line soon lapsed into barbarism and became quite obscure, both in their power and in their lives, and it was Tharrhypas, historians say, who first introduced Greek customs and letters and regulated his cities by humane laws, thereby acquiring for himself a name.



Quote:


Strabo:

He has written about the passengers traveling along Egnatia road(Via Egnatia):
"Starting from Epidamnus(Durres,Dyrrahio) and down to Apollonia, in the Right they have the tribes of Epirus....., in the Left they have the mountains of Illyria.....Then Sailing from Ambracian Golf and on, the places which is in the East and across Peloponnesous are Hellenic.



Actually this is a distortion of the quote for obvious reasons. There is no reference to Hellenic as in an ethnologic sense, but the phrase is "belong to Hellas" (τῆς Ἑλλάδος ἐστίν) in a geographical one.(Strabo's Geography 7.7.4.29)

Quote:


Also he writes:

"After the Epirots and Illyrians, from the Hellenes are Akarnanes,Etoles,Lokries and Ezoles



Another conveniently nit-picked quote since our friend obviously ignores the texts. Strabo has clarified why he presents a distinction between Hellenes and Epeirotes, the reason is found in 5.2.4

Quote:


Strabo Geography 5.2.4
τὰ Ἠπειρωτικὰ ἔθνη Πελασγικὰ εἰρήκασιν, ὡς καὶ
μέχρι δεῦρο ἐπαρξάντων· Πελασγούς

translation

many have called the tribes of Epirus Pelasgian," because in their opinion the Pelasgi extended their rule even as far as that




Quote:


Ephores:

He writes : "the Head(start) of Hellas, is Akarnania from the West ,because it is the first that contacts with the Epirot tribes"



Actually this quote derives from Strabo's Geography who's quoting and comments the lost work of Ephoros, a comment that clarifies and proves that the use of this quote is intentionally taken out of context.

Quote:


Strabo Geography 8.1.3

Ephorus says that, if one begins with the western parts, Acarnania is the beginning of Greece; for, he adds, Acarnania is the first to border on the tribes of the Epeirotes. But just as Ephorus, using the seacoast as his measuring-line, begins with Acarnania, for he decides in favor of the sea as a kind of guide in his description of places, because otherwise he might have represented parts that border on the land of the Macedonians and the Thessalians as the beginning

Skylax79
24-06-12, 14:08
Some notice must be taken of those barbarous or non-Hellenic nations who formed the immediate neighbors of Hellas, west of the range of Pindus, and north of that range which connects Pindus with Olympus, as well as of those other tribes, who, though lying more remote from Hellas proper, were yet brought into relations of traffic or hostility with the Hellenic colonies.
Between the Greeks and these foreign neighbors, the Akarnanians, of whom I have already spoken briefly in my preceding volume, form the proper link of transition. They occupied the territory between the river Achelous, the Ionian sea, and the Ambrakian gulf: they were Greeks, and admitted as such to contend at the Pan-Hellenic games, yet they were also closely connected with the Amphilochi and Agraei, who were not Greeks. In manners, sentiments, and intelligence, they were half-Hellenic and half-Epirotic, like the Italians and the Ozolian Lokrians. Even down to the time of Thucydides, these nations were subdivided into numerous petty communities, lived in unfortified villages, were frequently in the habit of plundering each other, and never permitted themselves to be unarmed : in case of attack, they withdrew their families and their scanty stock, chiefly cattle, to the shelter of difficult mountains or marshes. They were for the most part light-armed, few among them being trained to the panoply of the Grecian hoplite; but they were both brave and skillful in their own mode of warfare, and the sling, in the hands of the Akarnanian, was a weapon of formidable efficiency.
Notwithstanding this state of disunion and insecurity, however, the Akarnanians maintained a loose political league among themselves, and a hill near the Amphilochian Argos, on the shores of the Ambrakian gulf, had been fortified to serve as a judgment-seat, or place of meeting, for the settlement of disputes. And it seems that Stratus and Oeniadae had both become fortified in some measure towards the commencement of the Peloponnesian war. The former, the most considerable township in Akarnania, was situated on the Achelous, rather high up its course, the latter was at the mouth of the river, and was rendered difficult of approach by its inundations. Astakus, Solium, Palaerus, and Alyzia, lay on or near the coast of the Ionian sea, between Oeniadae and Leukas : Phytia, Koronta, Medeon, Limnaea, and Thyrium, were between the southern shore of the Ambrakian gulf and the river Achelous.
The Akarnanians appear to have produced many prophets. They traced up their mythical ancestry, as well as that of their neighbors the Amphilochians, to the most renowned prophetic family among the Grecian heroes; Amphiaraus, with his sons Alkmaeon and Amphilochus : Akarnan, the eponymous hero of the nation, and other eponymous heroes of the separate towns, were supposed to be the sons of Alkmaeon. They are spoken of, together with the Aetolians, as mere rude shepherds, by the lyric poet Alkman, and so they seem to have continued with little alteration until the beginning of the Peloponnesian war, when we hear of them, for the first time, as allies of Athens and as bitter enemies of the Corinthian colonies on their coast. The contact of those colonies, however, and the large spread of Akarnanian accessible coast, could not fail to produce some effect in socializing and improving the people. And it is probable that this effect would have been more sensibly felt, had not the Akarnanians been kept back by the fatal neighborhood of the Aetolians, with whom they were in perpetual feud, a people the most unprincipled and unimprovable of all who bore the Hellenic name, and whose habitual faithlessness stood in marked contrast with the rectitude and steadfastness of the Akarnanian character. It was in order to strengthen the Akarnanians against these rapacious neighbors, that the Macedonian Cassander urged them to consolidate their numerous small townships into a few considerable cities. Partially, at least, the recommendation was carried into effect, so as to aggrandize Stratus and one or two other towns; but in the succeeding century, the town of Leukas seems to lose its original position as a separate Corinthian colony, and to pass into that of chief city of Akarnania, which is lost only by the sentence of the Roman conquerors.
Passing over the borders of Akarnania, we find small nations or tribes not considered as Greeks, but known, from the fourth century BC downwards, under the common name of Epirots. This word signifies properly, inhabitants of a continent, as opposed to those of an island or a peninsula, and came only gradually to be applied by the Greeks as their comprehensive denomination to designate all those diverse tribes, between the Ambrakian gulf on the south and west, Pindus on the east, and the Illyrians and Macedonians to the north and north-east. Of these Epirots, the principal were, the Chaonians, Thesprotians, Kassopians, and Molossians, who occupied the country inland as well as maritime along the Ionian sea, from the Akrokeraunian mountains to the borders of Ambrakia in the interior of the Ambrakian gulf. The Agraeans and Amphilochians dwelt eastward of the last-mentioned gulf, bordering upon Akarnania : the Athamanes, the Tymphaeans, and the Talares, lived along the western skirts and high range of Pindus. Among these various tribes it is difficult to discriminate the semi-Hellenic from the non-Hellenic; for Herodotus considers both Molossians and Thesprotians as Hellenic, and the oracle of Dodona,as well as the Nekyomanteion, or holy cavern for evoking the dead, of Acheron, were both in the territory of the Thesprotians, and both, in the time of the historian, Hellenic. Thucydides, on the other hand, treats both Molossians and Thesprotians as barbaric, and Strabo says the same respecting the Athamanes, whom Plato numbers as Hellenic.
As the Epirots were confounded with the Hellenic communities towards the south, so they become blended with the Macedonian and Illyrian tribes towards the north. The Macedonian Orestea, north of the Cambunian mountains and east of Pindus, are called by Hekataeus a Molossian tribe; and Strabo even extends the designation Epirots to the Illyrian Paroraeia and Atintanes, west of Pindus, nearly on the same parallel of latitude with the Orestae. It must be remembered, as observed above, that while the designations Illyrians and Macedonians are properly ethnical, given to denote analogies of language, habits, feeling, and supposed origin, and probably acknowledged by the people themselves, the name Epirots belongs to the Greek language, is given by Greeks alone, and marks nothing except residence on a particular portion of the continent. Theopompus (about 340 BC) reckoned fourteen distinct Epirotic nations, among whom the Molossians and Chaonians were the principal. It is possible that some of these may have been semi-Illyrian, others semi-Macedonian, though all were comprised by him under the common name Epirots.
Of these various tribes, who dwelt between the Akrokeraunian promontory and the Ambrakian gulf, some, at least, appear to have been of ethnical kindred with portions of the inhabitants of southern Italy. There were Chaonians on the gulf of Tarentum, before the arrival of the Greek settlers, as well as in Epirus; we do not find the name Thesprotians in Italy, but we find there a town named Pandosia, and a river named Acheron, the same as among the Epirotic Thesprotians : the ubiquitous name Pelasgian is connected both with one and with the other. This ethnical affinity, remote or near, between Oenotrians and Epirots, which we must accept as a fact without being able to follow it into detail, consists at the same time with the circumstance, that both seem to have been susceptible of Hellenic influences to an unusual degree, and to have been molded, with comparatively little difficulty, into an imperfect Hellenism, like that of the Aetolian and Akarnanians. The Thesprotian conquerors of Thessaly passed in this manner into Thessalian Greeks, and the Amphilochians who inhabited Argos on the Ambrakian gulf, were Hellenized by the reception of Greeks from Ambrakia, though the Amphilochians situated without the city, still remained barbarous in the time of Thucydides : a century afterwards, probably, they would be Hellenized, like the rest, by a longer continuance of the same influences, as happened with the Sikels in Sicily.
To assign the names and exact boundaries of the different tribes inhabiting Epirus, as they stood in the seventh and sixth centuries BC, at the time when the western stream of Grecian colonization was going on, and when the newly established Ambrakiots must have been engaged in subjugating or expelling the prior occupants of their valuable site, is out of our power. We have no information prior to Herodotus and Thucydides, and that which they tell us cannot be safely applied to a time either much earlier or much later than their own. That there was great analogy between the inland Macedonians and the Epirots, from Mount Bermius across the continent to the coast opposite Kerkira, in military equipment, in the fashion of cutting the hair, and in speech, we are apprized by a valuable passage of Strabo; who farther tells us, that many of the tribes spoke two different languages, a fact which at least, proves very close intercommunion, if not a double origin and incorporation.
Wars, or voluntary secessions and new alliances, would alter the boundaries and relative situation of the various tribes. And this would be the more easily effected, as all Epirus, even in the fourth century BC, was parcelled out among an aggregate of villages, without any great central cities; so that the severance of a village from the Molossian union, and its junction with the Thesprotian (abstracting from the feelings with which it might be connected), would make little practical difference in its condition or proceedings. The gradual increase of Hellenic influence tended partially to centralize this political dispersion, enlarging some of the villages into small towns by the incorporation of some of their neighbors; and in this way, probably, were formed the seventy Epirotic cities which were destroyed and given up to plunder on the same day, by Paulas Emilius and the Roman senate. The Thesprotian Ephyre is called a city, even by Thucydides. Nevertheless, the situation was unfavorable to the formation of considerable cities, either on the coast or in the interior, since the physical character of the territory is an exaggeration of that of Greece, almost throughout, wild, rugged, and mountainous. The valleys and low grounds, though frequent, are never extensive, while the soil is rarely suited, in any continuous spaces, for the cultivation of corn : insomuch that the flour for the consumption of Janina, at the present day, is transported from Thessaly over the lofty ridge of Pindus, by means of asses and mules; while the fruits and vegetables are brought from Arta, the territory of Ambrakia.
TERRITORY OF EPIRUS.
Epirus is essentially a pastoral country : its cattle as well as its shepherds and shepherd’s dogs were celebrated throughout all antiquity; and its population then, as now, found divided village residence the most suitable to their means and occupations. In spite of this natural tendency, however, Hellenic influences were to a certain extent efficacious, and it is to them that we are to ascribe the formation of towns like Phoenike, an inland city a few miles removed from the sea, in a latitude somewhat north of the northernmost point of Corcyra, which Polybius notices as the most flourishing of the Epirotie cities at the time when it was plundered by the Illyrians in 236 BC. Passaron, the ancient spot where the Molossian kings were accustomed on their accession to take their coronation-oath, had grown into a considerable town, in this last century before the Roman conquest; while Tekmon, Phylake, and Horreum also became known to us at the same period. But the most important step which those kings made towards aggrandizement, was the acquisition of the Greek city of Ambrakia, which became the capital of the kingdom of Pyrrhus, and thus gave to him the only site suitable for a concentrated population which the country afforded.
If we follow the coast of Epirus from the entrance of the Ambrakian gulf northward to the Akrokeraunian promontory, we shall find it discouraging to Grecian colonization. There are none of those extensive maritime plains which the gulf of Tarentum exhibits on its coast, and which sustained the grandeur of Sybaris and Kroton. Throughout the whole extent, the mountain-region, abrupt and affording little cultivable soil, approaches near to the sea, and the level ground, wherever it exists, must be commanded and possessed, as it is now, by villagers on hill-sites, always difficult of attack and often inexpugnable. From hence, and from the neighborhood of Corcyra, herself well situated for traffic with Epirus, and jealous of neighboring rivals, we may understand why the Grecian emigrants omitted this unprofitable tract, and passed on either northward to the maritime plains of Illyria, or westward to Italy.
In the time of Herodotus and Thucydides, there seems to have been no Hellenic settlement between Ambrakia and Apollonia. The harbor called Glykys Limen, and the neighboring valley and plain, the most considerable in Epirus, next to that of Ambrakia, near the junction of the lake and river of Acheron with the sea, were possessed by the Thesprotian town of Ephyre, situated on a neighboring eminence; perhaps also, in part, by the ancient Thesprotian town of Pandosia, so pointedly connected, both in Italy and Epirus, with the river Acheron. Amidst the almost inexpugnable mountains and gorges which mark the course of that Thesprotian river, was situated the memorable recent community of Suli, which held in dependence many surrounding villages in the lower grounds and in the plain, the counterpart of primitive Epirotic rulers in situation, in fierceness, and in indolence, but far superior to them in energetic bravery and endurance.
It appears that after the time of Thucydides, certain Greek settlers must have found admission into the Epirotic towns in this region. For Demosthenes mentions Pandosia, Buchetia, and Elaea, as settlements from Elis, which Philip of Macedon conquered and handed over to his brother-in-law the king of the Molossian Epirots; and Strabo tells us that the name of Ephyre had been changed to Kichyrus, which appears to imply an accession of new inhabitants.
Both the Chaonians and Thesprotians appear, in the time of Thucydides, as having no kings : there was a privileged kingly race, but the presiding chief was changed from year to year. The Molossians, however, had a line of kings, succeeding from father to son, which professed to trace its descent through fifteen generations downward, from Achilles and Neoptolemus to Tharypas about the year 400 BC; they were thus a scion of the great Aeakid race. Admetus, the Molossian king to whom Themistocles presented himself as a suppliant, appears to have lived in the simplicity of an inland village chief. But Arrybas, his son or grandson, is said to have been educated at Athens, and to have introduced improved social regularity into his native country : while the subsequent kings both imitated the ambition and received the aid of Philip of Macedon, extending their dominion over a large portion of the other Epirots : even in the time of Skylax, they covered a large inland territory, though their portion of sea-coast was confined.
From the narrative of Thucydides, we gather that all the Epirots, though held together by no political union, were yet willing enough to combine for purposes of aggression and plunder. The Chaonians enjoyed a higher military reputation than the rest, but the account which Thucydides gives of their expedition against Akarnania exhibits a blind, reckless, boastful impetuosity, which contrasts strikingly with the methodical and orderly march of their Greek allies and companions. We may here notice, that the Kassopaeans, whom Skylax places in the south-western portion of Epirus between the Acheron and the Ambrakian gulf, are not noticed either by Herodotus or Thucydides : the former, indeed, conceives the river Acheron and the Thesprotians as conterminous with the Ambrakiotic territory.
To collect the few particulars known respecting these ruder communities adjacent to Greece, is a task indispensable for the just comprehension of the Grecian world, and for the appreciation of the Greeks themselves, by comparison or contrast with their contemporaries. Indispensable as it is, however, it can hardly be rendered in itself interesting to the reader, whose patience I have to bespeak by assuring him that the facts hereafter to be recounted of Grecian history would be only half understood without this preliminary survey of the lands around.

Eldritch
24-06-12, 14:16
@Skylax 79: What you posted has nothing to with this thread.

Skylax79
24-06-12, 14:19
Ancient writers about greekness of Epirus
“Zeus Archon, Dodonean, Pelasgian, who dwells afar, ruling on rough wintered Dodona, surrounded by the Selloi, the interpreters of your divine will, whose feet are unwashed and sleep on the ground”.




Homer, Iliad 16:127 (Achilles prayer)


XI.


“War was at the same time proclaimed against the Tarentines (who are still a people at the extremity of Italy), because they had offered violence to some Roman ambassadors. These people asked aid against the Romans of Pyrrhus, king of Epirus, who derived his origin from the family of Achilles…


XIII.


“…Thus the ambassador of Pyrrhus returned; and, when Pyrrhus asked him “what kind of a place he had found Rome to be,” Cineas replied, that “he had seen a country of kings, for that all there were such, as Pyrrhus alone was thought to be in Epirus and the rest of Greece.”


Eutropius (Abridgment of Roman History) Historiae Romanae Breviarium


“Arha Ellas apo Oricias kai arhegonos Ellas Epiros“


“Greece starts at Oricus and the most ancient part of Greece is Epirus.”


Claudius Ptolemy, The Geographer


“Peleus is the forefather of the kings of Epiros”


Pausanias, II (Corinth).


Peleus being the son of King Aeacus (the dynasty’s name) and the father of Achilles.


but we know of no Greek before Pyrros who fought against Rome


Pausanias, 1.11


“So Pyrros was the first to cross over against Rome from mainland Greece, and even so he went over only because he was called in by Tarentum”


Pausanias, 1.12


[6] Being apprized of Alcmaeon’s untimely end and courted by Zeus, Callirrhoe requested that the sons she had by Alcmaeon might be full grown in order to avenge their father’s murder. And being suddenly full-grown, the sons went forth to right their father’s wrong. Now Pronous and Agenor, the sons of Phegeus, carrying the necklace and robe to Delphi to dedicate them, turned in at the house of Agapenor at the same time as Amphoterus and Acarnan, the sons of Alcmaeon; and the sons of Alcmaeon killed their father’s murderers, and going to Psophis and entering the palace they slew both Phegeus and his wife. They were pursued as far as Tegea, but saved by the intervention of the Tegeans and some Argives, and the Psophidians took to flight.


[7] Having acquainted their mother with these things, they went to Delphi and dedicated the necklace and robe according to the injunction of Achelous. Then they journeyed to Epirus, collected settlers, and colonized Acarnania..


Apollodorus, 3.76-3.77.


[12] After remaining in Tenedos two days at the advice of Thetis, Neoptolemus set out for the country of the Molossians by land with Helenus, and on the way Phoenix died, and Neoptolemus buried him; and having vanquished the Molossians in battle he reigned as king and begat Molossus on Andromache. And Helenus founded a city in Molossia and inhabited it, and Neoptolemus gave him his mother Deidamia to wife. And when Peleus was expelled from Phthia by the sons of Acastus and died, Neoptolemus succeeded to his father’s kingdom.”


Apollodorus, 6.12


“It was for this reason that Pyrrhus was defeated by the Romans also in a battle to the finish. For it was no mean or untrained army that he had, but the mightiest of those then in existence among the Greeks and one that had fought a great many wars; nor was it a small body of men that was then arrayed under him, but even three times as large as his adversary’s, nor was its general any chance leader, but rather the man whom all admit to have been the greatest of all the generals who flourish at that same period;”


Dionysius of Halicarnnasus, Roman Antiquities, 19.11


“Theopompus says, that there are fourteen Epirotic nations. Of these, the most celebrated are the Chaones and Molotti, because the whole of Epirus was at one time subject, first to Chaones, afterwards to Molotti. Their power was greatly strengthened by the family of their kings being descended from the Æacidæ, and because the ancient and famous oracle of Dodona was in their country. Chaones, Thesproti, and next after these Cassopæi, (who are Thesproti,) occupy the coast, a fertile tract reaching from the Ceraunian mountains to the Ambracian Gulf.”


“The Molotti also were Epirotæ, and were subjects of Pyrrhus Neoptolemus, the son of Achilles, and of his descendants, who were Thessalians. The rest were governed by native princes. Some tribes were continually endeavouring to obtain the mastery over the others, but all were finally subdued by the Macedonians, except a few situated above the Ionian Gulf.”


Strabo, 7.7.1


“Pyrrhus, the king of Epirus, had a particularly high opinion of his powers because he was deemed by foreign nations a match for the Romans; and he believed that it would be opportune to assist the fugitives who had taken refuge with him, especially as they were Greeks, and at the same time so forestall the Romans with some plausible excuse before he should suffer injury at their hands. For so careful was he about his good reputation that though he had long had his eye on Sicily and had been considering how he could overthrow the power of the Romans, he shrank from taking the initiative in hostilities against them, when no wrong had been done him.”


Cassius Dio, Book 9.4


19. When Harrybas, king of the Molossians, was attacked in war by Bardylis, the Illyrian, who commanded a considerably larger army, he dispatched the non-combatant portion of his subjects to the neighbouring district of Aetolia, and spread the report that he was yielding up his towns and possessions to the Aetolians. He himself, with those who could bear arms, placed ambuscades here and there on the mountains and in other inaccessible places. The Illyrians, fearful lest the possessions of the Molossians should be seized by the Aetolians, began to race along in disorder, in their eagerness for plunder. As soon as they became scattered, Harrybas, emerging from his concealment and taking them unawares, routed them and put them to flight.


Frontinus, Strategemata, 13


“Alexander, the Epirote, when waging war against the Illyrians, first placed a force in ambush, and then dressed up some of his own men in Illyrian garb, ordering them to lay waste his own, that is to say, Epirote territory. When the Illyrians saw that this was being done, they themselves began to pillage right and left — the more confidently since they thought that those who led the way were scouts. But when they had been designedly brought by the latter into a disadvantageous position, they were routed and killed.

Skylax79
24-06-12, 14:23
This is a tread for Illyria. The caucasian Albanians consider anciet greek Epir as an ancient Illyrian province witch is tottaly wrong! im sorry but i must save the situation

Skylax79
24-06-12, 14:28
In Stephan's the Byzantine period Greece was a roman colony under the names of Macedonia and east Illyricum... Οf course Stephan's The Byzantine considerd epirot areas and rest ancient greek Hellas as "Illyrians"
This map shows my words ...
http://www.emersonkent.com/map_archive/roman_empire_4th.htm

Skylax79
24-06-12, 14:34
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7SqAogmDw4
Ancient Illyrian Coins Have GREEK Words.
Tnx 4 watching!

zanipolo
25-06-12, 12:40
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Paleo-Balkan_languages_in_Eastern_Europe_between_5th_and _1st_century_BC.png


@skylax
I think you are mostly correct , epirus was greek linguistically, BUT how did pyrrhus get the illyrian messapic people in Italy to support him and supply him with troops and food

Skylax79
27-06-12, 19:17
Zanipolo.. They were not only the Messapians who supported Pyrro. They were all the greek people in Italy and Cisily.. Some ethnologists consider the Samnites-Savins-Savels as Illyrians but that tribe had the same traditional idioms like Spartans .. Their towns had not walls and their women were equal to men .. After the 3 Savin wars when the Romans had and took the control of central Italy both tribes were united under one state. The Rome. The Patricians came from Samnitae thats why they dressed like typical spartans! Their clothing was thrifty. They had naked chest and down from their weist they had white tunic. Like the Spartans. Pyrro send a greek messanger with the name Cyneas to Patricians of Rome for truce and he started to spoke to them dorian greek dialect!!! The language of Spartans..

Skylax79
27-06-12, 19:27
The big problem for the illyrian issue is that Illyrians had not scripts or graphics so everything is hypothetical for them.. So let speak the stones, the marbles. the statues, the books who had greek and latin language and let the albanian stupidities. In Greece we say.. "Τhe hungry dreams round loaves"

Skylax79
27-06-12, 19:49
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lhMX6E6pNA&feature=related
Even some Albanians says that the modern Albanians have no realations to Illyrians

Dianatomia
28-06-12, 04:35
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b7/Paleo-Balkan_languages_in_Eastern_Europe_between_5th_and _1st_century_BC.png


@skylax
I think you are mostly correct , epirus was greek linguistically, BUT how did pyrrhus get the illyrian messapic people in Italy to support him and supply him with troops and food

Epirus was indeed Greek, but I wouldn't count on that map as evidence.
This map looks like someone had some fun behind his computer. First of all, Greek expansion was not all the way up to Montenegro. Second, evidence points out that ancient Macedonian was most probably part of the Hellenic branch. Third, why are Macedonians situated north of ancient Macedonia? Where are the Paeonians and Dardanians? I'm smell a Balkan nationalist agenda here. Why do these people who create such maps waste their time? In order to change the academic opinion one needs evidence. Coloured maps won't do unfortunatelly.

zanipolo
28-06-12, 09:25
Epirus was indeed Greek, but I wouldn't count on that map as evidence.
This map looks like someone had some fun behind his computer. First of all, Greek expansion was not all the way up to Montenegro. Second, evidence points out that ancient Macedonian was most probably part of the Hellenic branch. Third, why are Macedonians situated north of ancient Macedonia? Where are the Paeonians and Dardanians? I'm smell a Balkan nationalist agenda here. Why do these people who create such maps waste their time? In order to change the academic opinion one needs evidence. Coloured maps won't do unfortunatelly.

the map looks very generous to the greek language - nearly all the black sea , all albania ( there where no albanians there at the time frame of this map ) ...........maybe your are right, and maybe you are wrong.

The illyrians first crossed the neretva river around 400BC ( entering modern montenegro), they where stopped at the drin river and then fought a series of wars against alexander the great and his father.

Malsori
28-06-12, 12:45
Skylax

In my humble opinion neither Albanians neither Greeks have Proto-Illyrian and Proto-Greek blood.Genetically we are mostly Indo-Europeanized Paleo-Balkanoid people except that Albanians have more Atlanto-Baltic component than Greeks so we are a lil bit more Proto-Illyrian than you are Proto-Greek.

Modern Greeks have largely Pelasgian and other Minoan/Anatolian ancestry than from real Indo-European Greeks.

Yetos
28-06-12, 18:29
Skylax

In my humble opinion neither Albanians neither Greeks have Proto-Illyrian and Proto-Greek blood.Genetically we are mostly Indo-Europeanized Paleo-Balkanoid people except that Albanians have more Atlanto-Baltic component than Greeks so we are a lil bit more Proto-Illyrian than you are Proto-Greek.

Modern Greeks have largely Pelasgian and other Minoan/Anatolian ancestry than from real Indo-European Greeks.


It depends,
1rst we know that E Ydna is very old, but we don't know how old is in Balkans,
so it is difficult to claim paleo-Balkan since mostly G-Ydna is not that high

2nd the time age of I-Ydna is uncertain since K Nordvert is giving it very young and in Balkans I Ydna is strong

3rd the time age of J Ydna and its origins gives newer than Paleo Balkanic results


So it seems that both population have Pelasgian component.
Both population have Italian admixture

so?
It seems like Albanian Language at its today from is more younger to Balkans meaning that probably Illyrian (Illyria proprie Dicti and not Illyricum) were a mix of Central Europe with Pelasgians and today Albania has also a Northern component at least in Linguistic,

on the other hand Greece seems to resist more to the linguistic of the East-North migration at Byzantine and medieval times.

Both populations seems to kept mostly the same Y DNA analogy or %'s of that of late Roman times,
and both population manage to assimilate some Thracian blood and Lingua which probably in Albania kept its sounds due to Satem language, while in Greece change due to Centum

I do insist that is another area what Greeks name Illyria and what Romans named Illyricum,


PS
if we follow Kurgan hypothesis then IE language is a language of R1b and R1a
if we follow agricultural hypothesis (Anatolian) then IE is a G-Ydna language

although in second we do not know the role of J2 Ydna which maybe is a strong opponent or ally in agricultural hypothesis

E Ydna in Balkans as also some J components probably can be connected with Levant and Cyprus giving the 'wanted' Pelasgian DNA. (chalkolithic and copper era migrations)

Dianatomia
30-06-12, 05:14
Skylax

In my humble opinion neither Albanians neither Greeks have Proto-Illyrian and Proto-Greek blood.Genetically we are mostly Indo-Europeanized Paleo-Balkanoid people except that Albanians have more Atlanto-Baltic component than Greeks so we are a lil bit more Proto-Illyrian than you are Proto-Greek.

Modern Greeks have largely Pelasgian and other Minoan/Anatolian ancestry than from real Indo-European Greeks.

I think what follows from the genetic research is that Albanians and Greeks largely descent from paleo-balkanic peoples. This is the key. Being proto-something is irrelevant and rather vague.

Little can be said with absolute certainty about how much proto-hellenic blood modern Greeks have. But then again, how much proto-hellenic blood did the Ancient Greeks have? If modern Greeks largely descent from Pelasgians and Minoans (as you claim and I don't disagree), and these people arrived there before the proto-hellenes, then the ancient Greek populations were also largely pelasgian/minoan. Their culture was a mixture of Minoan, Pelasgian, and Indo-european sub-cultures. And their gene pool was a mixture of all these peoples. It is no coincidence that we can see the haplogroups of those peoples in different places colonised by ancient Greeks. From Marsailles to Magna Graecia and beyond.

So, rather than saying Albanians and Greeks are A or B, or were A and are now B. You should take a three dimentional view. I.e. they are A+B+C. Because A didn't go anywhere when C arrived.

Taranis
30-06-12, 08:30
I'd be happier if people would stop using the word "Pelasgian", especially because it certainly does not belong into the Illyrian context. You have to remember that in the myths the Greeks had about their own ancestry, they are variously depicted as either the ancestors of the Greeks or the first known inhabitants of Greece. Conveyed into linguistics, the term may mean any "Pre-Greek" or non-Greek elements into the Greek language that we find. But, there is no archaeological culture we can deem as genuinely "Pelasgian", there was not "one" 'Pelasgian' language either. And the discussion is entirely disconnected from the Illyrians or the Illyrian language(s).

Taking things to the next step and talking about which Haplogroup or which not is "Pelasgian" is folly in my opinion.

Malsori
30-06-12, 17:39
It depends,
1rst we know that E Ydna is very old, but we don't know how old is in Balkans,
so it is difficult to claim paleo-Balkan since mostly G-Ydna is not that high

With Paleo-Balkanoid i didn't mean pre-Neolithic or Early Neolithic but before Indo-Europeanization.Wasn't G linked with Early Neolithic farmers who brought the Mediterranean component in Europe?Surprisingly G Y-DNA is low everywhere in Southern Europe except that we find a ~10-15% percent in Northern Sardinia and Corsica.



2nd the time age of I-Ydna is uncertain since K Nordvert is giving it very young and in Balkans I Ydna is strong


I think Nordvedt's opinion is that I2a2-Din came with South Slavic invasions.It makes sense to me based on modern percentages.



3rd the time age of J Ydna and its origins gives newer than Paleo Balkanic results


Indeed,J2 in Balkans is probably related with Anatolian Neolithic farmers.Though i suppose the J2b2 came earlier than the J2a subclade found on Greeks.



So it seems that both population have Pelasgian component.
Both population have Italian admixture


Weren't the Pelasgians thought to came from Anatolia?What is Italian admixture?Without any aDNA in the Balkans from Neolithic sites we can just make wild guesses.




It seems like Albanian Language at its today from is more younger to Balkans meaning that probably Illyrian (Illyria proprie Dicti and not Illyricum) were a mix of Central Europe with Pelasgians and today Albania has also a Northern component at least in Linguistic,
on the other hand Greece seems to resist more to the linguistic of the East-North migration at Byzantine and medieval times.


If you mean in comparison with Greek language then i agree.




PS
if we follow Kurgan hypothesis then IE language is a language of R1b and R1a
if we follow agricultural hypothesis (Anatolian) then IE is a G-Ydna language


PIE is definitely linked only with R1a1a subclades while IE includes the R1b too.The G Y-DNA is totally excluded from being a Indo-European marker.

zanipolo
30-06-12, 21:24
With Paleo-Balkanoid i didn't mean pre-Neolithic or Early Neolithic but before Indo-Europeanization.Wasn't G linked with Early Neolithic farmers who brought the Mediterranean component in Europe?Surprisingly G Y-DNA is low everywhere in Southern Europe except that we find a ~10-15% percent in Northern Sardinia and Corsica.



I think Nordvedt's opinion is that I2a2-Din came with South Slavic invasions.It makes sense to me based on modern percentages.



Indeed,J2 in Balkans is probably related with Anatolian Neolithic farmers.Though i suppose the J2b2 came earlier than the J2a subclade found on Greeks.



Weren't the Pelasgians thought to came from Anatolia?What is Italian admixture?Without any aDNA in the Balkans from Neolithic sites we can just make wild guesses.




If you mean in comparison with Greek language then i agree.



PIE is definitely linked only with R1a1a subclades while IE includes the R1b too.The G Y-DNA is totally excluded from being a Indo-European marker.

This is a very good link for the balkans, ...check figure 2
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2947100/?tool=pmcentrez

In regards to G in sardinia, if its type G2a4 then its only from the 1920's forced migration of 72000 ( in 2 years) of NEItalians and istrians by mussolini


Anyway , link has all balkan nationals and there % in this 2008 report

Eldritch
02-09-12, 16:37
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lhMX6E6pNA&feature=related
Even some Albanians says that the modern Albanians have no realations to Illyrians
Should we believe a propaganda video made from a Greek?

Yetos
02-09-12, 16:52
Should we believe a propaganda video made from a Greek?

Stupidity and provoke exist in world much before youtube,
sometimes enters also in schools

Do you believe this crup and Albanian propaganda?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wU87CAH95c&feature=related

In youtube the stupidity is big, there are people who earbn money writting extra-terestrial Historical stories,
Scientific fiction is not only for future, but from past also

Eldritch
02-09-12, 16:57
Stupidity and provoke exist in world much before youtube,
sometimes enters also in schools
Mine wasn't a critique to Greeks but generally to people that present evidences basing themselves on a youtube video.

Endri
02-09-12, 17:04
You shouldn't take into consideration YouTube videos. Most of the people posting are pre-teenagers just trying to kill time.

What i don't understand is why smo in this forum would make reference to a YouTube video.

Yetos
02-09-12, 17:05
and I answer you,

don't believe much youtube,
better search facts history gennetics archaiology, and not youtube.

in youtube people try to input you data, maybe are correct maybe wrong, but do not believe before you check the source, and croos it with other data.

The main stupidity in these videos is the wrong coonection of a data,
IT IS LIKE
PNEUMONS ARE vital INSTRUMENTS
GUITAR IS musical INSTRUMENT
SO PNEUMONS ARE GUITARS


That is youtube philosophy


Coal is Carbon
Diamond is Carbon
so Coal = Diamond

so I sell Coal as Diamond

Ivan
03-09-12, 17:41
In regards to G in sardinia, if its type G2a4 then its only from the 1920's forced migration of 72000 ( in 2 years) of NEItalians and istrians by mussolini



As I read recently, some new data showed Corsicans have 21,5 % of G. Sicilians also have elevated G.
Was Corsica also settled by Mussolini? If you have some reading material on this please let me know.

Were these 72000 all men of productive age? What haplogroups were most common in Istrians and North Italians. I couldn't find anything in Sardinian sites about this. What was the attitude towards newcomers in Sardinia?
It would be funny if scientists who made this data failed to test indigenous population of Sardinia but rather newcomers from twenties.

Anyhow,
You probably have data for North east Italians and Istrians. If you do, please link me.

Bosniak
19-07-13, 01:01
"Interesting that we always had a saying: "push the Serbs back over the Drin river!" LOL"


"BTW, Dalmatians are pure Croats, because from regions of Dalmatia and Herzegovina, Croat name and rule spread northwards into Panonia, eventually calling it Panonian Croatia."


Exuse me?


Dalmatians are Croats? According to who? You? ( Genetically speaking )

According to the I genetic map the highest I2a1b is in Bosnia and Dalmatia. Dalmatians thanks to their 50+ I2a1b % are genetically closer to the Catholic & Muslim Bosnians then to the Croatians.

If we take religions aside, Catholics and Muslims of Bosnia and Dalmatia are infact same pre-Slavic people while on the other the Croatians ( without Dalmatia) are a mix of Slavic Croats who invade Balkans in the 6-8 century and the pre-Slavic population.

So your claim that Dalmatians are Croats are definitely incorrect. Bosnians and Dalmatians are genetically same people.

Eldritch
19-07-13, 01:09
Exuse me?


Dalmatians are Croats? According to who? You? ( Genetically speaking )

According to the I genetic map the highest I2a1b is in Bosnia and Dalmatia. Dalmatians thanks to their 50+ I2a1b % are genetically closer to the Catholic & Muslim Bosnians then to the Croatians.

If we take religions aside, Catholics and Muslims of Bosnia and Dalmatia are infact same pre-Slavic people while on the other the Croatians ( without Dalmatia) are a mix of Slavic Croats who invade Balkans in the 6-8 century and the pre-Slavic population.

So your claim that Dalmatians are Croats are definitely incorrect. Bosnians and Dalmatians are genetically same people.
I2a1b isn't preslavic in any way shape or form.

Bosniak
19-07-13, 03:04
I2a1b isn't preslavic in any way shape or form.

When we are talking about the Balkans and invading Slavs from 6-8 century, then yes haplogroup I2a1b is pre-Slavic.

Eldritch
19-07-13, 10:45
When we are talking about the Balkans and invading Slavs from 6-8 century, then yes haplogroup I2a1b is pre-Slavic.
No, I2a1b expanded with Slavs as Nordvedt finiding suggests.

Marko94
19-07-13, 11:17
Stupidity and provoke exist in world much before youtube,
sometimes enters also in schools

Do you believe this crup and Albanian propaganda?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wU87CAH95c&feature=related

In youtube the stupidity is big, there are people who earbn money writting extra-terestrial Historical stories,
Scientific fiction is not only for future, but from past also
And propaganda about Skanderbeu? Arbaresh? or language albanian?
The propaganda is strong in all country of balkan.

Bosniak
19-07-13, 12:30
No, I2a1b expanded with Slavs as Nordvedt finiding suggests.


What is your proof for that?

Eldritch
19-07-13, 13:03
What is your proof for that?
The peak diversity of I2a1b is around Moldova, southern Ukraine and northern Romania. This succinctly proves that it indeed originates somewhere north of the Balkans - somewhere around Moldova, for precision's sake.

I2a1b too is less than 1% in Italy when it's well known how many Illyrian troops were recruited in Roman Empire.

BakodiP
19-07-13, 13:46
Nowaday peak and a haplogroup's geographical origins are not at all the same thing!

Bosniak
19-07-13, 15:52
The peak diversity of I2a1b is around Moldova, southern Ukraine and northern Romania. This succinctly proves that it indeed originates somewhere north of the Balkans - somewhere around Moldova, for precision's sake.

I2a1b too is less than 1% in Italy when it's well known how many Illyrian troops were recruited in Roman Empire.


This is going to be intressting. So according to you what genetics did the Illyrians belong to?

Eldritch
19-07-13, 18:03
This is going to be intressting. So according to you what genetics did the Illyrians belong to?

Probably an R1b elite that subjugated aboriginal E-V13, J2b2 folks.

Bosniak
19-07-13, 18:37
Probably an R1b elite that subjugated aboriginal E-V13, J2b2 folks.


That is a good theory because both Illyrians and Celts came from Hallstatt culture, the Celts lived in the west and Illyrians in the east. But your theory dosen't make any sense and that's because of the low R1b % within Bosnia which is only 4%. Even the E-V13(14,5%) and J2(6%) is heigher in Bosnia then the R1b and the E-V13 is heigher in Croatia then the R1b haplogroup is.

So according to you, the Illyrian (R1b) genes among Bosnians would be even lower then the Greek (J2) which definitely makes no sense.

Eldritch
19-07-13, 19:53
That is a good theory because both Illyrians and Celts came from Hallstatt culture, the Celts lived in the west and Illyrians in the east. But your theory dosen't make any sense and that's because of the low R1b % within Bosnia which is only 4%. Even the E-V13(14,5%) and J2(6%) is heigher in Bosnia then the R1b and the E-V13 is heigher in Croatia then the R1b haplogroup is.

So according to you, the Illyrian (R1b) genes among Bosnians would be even lower then the Greek (J2) which definitely makes no sense.
Bosniaks and Croatians are Slavs so i don't see anything strange there.

They're R1a + I2a1b as it's logical.

Shetop
19-07-13, 19:55
That is a good theory because both Illyrians and Celts came from Hallstatt culture, the Celts lived in the west and Illyrians in the east. But your theory dosen't make any sense and that's because of the low R1b % within Bosnia which is only 4%. Even the E-V13(14,5%) and J2(6%) is heigher in Bosnia then the R1b and the E-V13 is heigher in Croatia then the R1b haplogroup is.

So according to you, the Illyrian (R1b) genes among Bosnians would be even lower then the Greek (J2) which definitely makes no sense.

There are a lot of subhaplogroups among both R1b and J2 (and E-V13 too).
For example predominant R1b haplogroup among Celts in central Europe was R1b-U152. And in Balkans there is R1b-L23 or even some older R1b.
J2 which makes majority in Greece is J2a, and the one which makes majority in western Balkans is J2b.

I would not agree about Illyrian R1b elite, but that is less important. More important is that greater number of people are now supporting opinion that I2a1b-Din is not pre-Slavic, than they were couple of years ago.

Related to this, one important thing which happened recently is a discovery of the closest older cousin of I2a1b-Din in Poland. Varieties of I2a1b-Din found in Balkans are generally considered younger than those on the North (or Northeast). So I hope it is easy to understand, that Poland discovery is also in favor of I2a1b-Din Slavic connection.

Yetos
19-07-13, 20:51
to make things more easy,

modern Historians name Illyrians the Pannoni basin Celtic culture tribes,
but it is not according History,

Illyrian was a mix of that Celtic Branch + minor Asian population (Akkado-cypriots+Pelasgians)
Illyricum is another story,

As for Slavic expansions at balkans it is true that I2b1 is a good indicator marker,
at least from what I discused, read, and learned in the forum,

the other is the linguistic part,

Bosniak
19-07-13, 22:04
Bosniaks and Croatians are Slavs so i don't see anything strange there.

They're R1a + I2a1b as it's logical.

I do, because if the Illyrian genes would be R1b then logically it would be the second highest genetic among Bosnians. But it isn't, it barely exist in Bosnia.
What doesn't make any sense is how could J2 and E-V13 (which is aboriginal) higher then the Illyrian genes when we know that the Illyrians were the dominant group of people for about 1300 years before the fall of the Roman empire.

The E-V13 genetic is more then twice higher then the "Illyrian" R1b which doesn't make any sense.

Eldritch
19-07-13, 22:17
I do, because if the Illyrian genes would be R1b then logically it would be the second highest genetic among Bosnians. But it isn't, it barely exist in Bosnia.
What doesn't make any sense is how could J2 and E-V13 (which is aboriginal) higher then the Illyrian genes when we know that the Illyrians were the dominant group of people for about 1300 years before the fall of the Roman empire.

The E-V13 genetic is more then twice higher then the "Illyrian" R1b which doesn't make any sense.
Ever heard of the elite dominance model? A small group of people rule upon inhabitants (Illyrians were Indo-Europeans)

Well Illyrian genes have survived under the form of indigineous Balkan E-V13 in Bosnia.

Bosniak
19-07-13, 22:26
Ever heard of the elite dominance model? A small group of people rule upon inhabitants (Illyrians were Indo-Europeans)

Well Illyrian genes have survived under the form of indigineous Balkan E-V13 in Bosnia.

No, not the one you must be thinking on.

Am not sure if I did understood you. What do you mean "Illyrians genes survived under the form of E-V13" ? Do you mean that the Illyrian genes are E-v13?

Eldritch
19-07-13, 22:50
No, not the one you must be thinking on.

Am not sure if I did understood you. What do you mean "Illyrians genes survived under the form of E-V13" ? Do you mean that the Illyrian genes are E-v13?
Yes E-V13 were illyrianized from R1b conquerors.

Bosniak
19-07-13, 23:08
Yes E-V13 were illyrianized from R1b conquerors.


Wouldn't Illyrian R1b genes then become the dominant one until the arrival of the Slavs? I mean I know there is a theory about Illyrianization but that happend before their arravial in the west Balkan. But after 1300 years the R1b gene would be probably much higher then the E-V13.

And logically the real Illyrian (as you claim R1b) should be then the second highest genetic within Bosnians. Which is not.

zanipolo
19-07-13, 23:22
No, not the one you must be thinking on.

Am not sure if I did understood you. What do you mean "Illyrians genes survived under the form of E-V13" ? Do you mean that the Illyrian genes are E-v13?

E1b is associated with the thracians in the balkans,
illyrians are R1b and also G2a in the north and they moved south later
I2a1 as per my theory was from ukraine area, was bought to the balkans by the cimmerians around 650BC. after the cimmerians where attacked by the scythians around 700BC.

Thracians and illyrian are geographical terms for many different tribes , many cultures, many kings, many ethnics

"illyrian" R1b
Haplogroup R
(R1b-M137): The highest
frequency distribution of
R1b-M173
(Kivisild et
al., 2003) in the area of
Veneti (62%), decreasing in that of
Autariates (27.27%) and
Japodes (26.67%),
Noricum (21%),
Histri (18.18%),
Taulantii (17.60%),
Liburni (16.40%),
Dardanians (14.55%) and
Delmatae (7.06%).

"illyrian"
Haplogrupa E

(E3b1-M78): The frequencies in our sample are the following:
Dardanians (36.80%),
Taulantii (27%),
Japodes (13.33%),
Veneti (10.40%),
Histri (9.09%),
Autariates (8.50%) and
Delmatae (4.66%). In the area of
Noricum this haplogroup is absent.

veneti = northeast italy
liburni = croatian and istrian
noricum = western austria and pannonia ( hungary )
delmatae = dalmatia
dardanian = kossovo
taulanti = montengro and north albania
japodes = croatia and bosnia
autariates = serbia and herzenogiva
histri - istrians and western slovenia

Bosniak
19-07-13, 23:49
E1b is associated with the thracians in the balkans,
illyrians are R1b and also G2a in the north and they moved south later
I2a1 as per my theory was from ukraine area, was bought to the balkans by the cimmerians around 650BC. after the cimmerians where attacked by the scythians around 700BC.

Thracians and illyrian are geographical terms for many different tribes , many cultures, many kings, many ethnics

"illyrian" R1b
Haplogroup R
(R1b-M137): The highest
frequency distribution of
R1b-M173
(Kivisild et
al., 2003) in the area of
Veneti
(62%), decreasing in that of
Autariates
(27.27%) and
Japodes
(26.67%),
Noricum
(21%),
Histri
(18.18%),
Taulantii
(17.60%),
Liburni
(16.40%),
Dardanians
(14.55%) and
Delmatae
(7.06%).

"illyrian"
Haplogrupa E

(E3b1-M78): The frequencies in our sample are the following:
Dardanians
(36.80%),
Taulantii
(27%),
Japodes
(13.33%),
Veneti
(10.40%),
Histri
(9.09%),
Autariates
(8.50%) and
Delmatae
(4.66%). In the area of
Noricum
this haplogroup is absent.

veneti = northeast italy
noricum = western austria and pannonia ( hungary )
delmatae = dalmatia
dardanian = kossovo
taulanti = montengro and north albania
japodes = croatia and bosnia
autariates = serbia and herzenogiva
histri - istrians and western slovenia




So you think that the I2a1b is a pre-Slavic haplogroup in Balkan?

zanipolo
20-07-13, 00:18
So you think that the I2a1b is a pre-Slavic haplogroup in Balkan?

that's what was confirmed by kenN, its from the steppes

and its not pre-slavic, it arrived before the slavs got to the balkans. If Herodotus is correct and the cimmerians are related to the thracians, then its a northern Thracian marker.

Bosniak
20-07-13, 00:42
that's what was confirmed by kenN, its from the steppes

and its not pre-slavic, it arrived before the slavs got to the balkans. If Herodotus is correct and the cimmerians are related to the thracians, then its a northern Thracian marker.


When I say pre-Slavic I mean that they settled in the [Balkan] before Slavs. But okay. I don't agree with you totally but am willing to hear yours, and of course others theories. And I say theories because non of us can really say that it's either this way or that way.

I just read that according to a Russian biochemist, Anatole Klyosov that according to him the I2 where almost completly exterminated in Europe by 4500 BC and the survivorus fled to England and Ireland then later around 2300 they resettled in eastern Europe.

Can you show me source where you found those genetics studies about the Illyrian tribes?

kamani
20-07-13, 01:07
The Illyrian Elite in South Albania was: western-R1b, I1, I2a2b, I2b.

The Illyrianized native population was: eastern-R1b, E-v13, E-M123, G2a, J2b, J1, J2a.

And probably both had different subclades of some R1a. Although I strongly suspect that most non-slavic R1a in the Greece/Albania/Macedonia region is actually the Greek Elite that hellenized the rest of the natives.

The mix happened sometime in the Bronze Age. The Illyrian elite was celtic genetically, but not so much culturally in its early years, which means that it came in the Balkans before the formation of the Celtic culture in Central Europe.

Bosniak
20-07-13, 01:12
The Illyrian Elite in South Albania was: western-R1b, I1, I2a2b, I2b.

The Illyrianized native population was: eastern-R1b, E-v13, E-M123, G2a, J2b, J1, J2a.

And probably both had different subclades of some R1a.

The mix happened sometime in the Bronze Age. The Illyrian elite was celtic genetically, but not so much culturally in its early years, which means that it came in the Balkans before the formation of the Celtic culture in Central Europe.


What makes you think that the Illyrians were genetically celtic (R1b) ?

kamani
20-07-13, 01:29
What makes you think that the Illyrians were genetically celtic (R1b) ?

They were not just R1b, but the full group that I mentioned above, with probably I2a2b being the most numerous by a little bit. I think this because I count haplogroups of Albanians as a hobby and have studied for a while the haplogroups of Europe.

Fire Haired
20-07-13, 01:44
I just want to say modern Yugoslaviens decend from Illyrians or anyone in Illyrian areas.

Map of Y DNA I2a1 formally known as i2a the eastern european I2a1 is I2a1b except for some in Britan and Ireland.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I-borders.gif

map of Illyria
http://darkwing.uoregon.edu/~klio/maps/rr/colonies.jpg

Also the areas of eastern Italy where some Illyrians settled has higher amounts of I2a1 than the rest of Italy. I2a1b spread out of southern Europe about 20,000ybp it has been in eastern Europe for over 15,000 years. It does not come from any recent migrations there is no doubt Yugoslavians and eastern Europeans have keep very ancient paternal lines. But Yugoslavians also have significant amounts of mid eastern blood which came recently but not extremely significant.

Balto Slavic aka cordoded ware culture invasions of central and northern eastern Europe killed off many of the I2a1b paternal lines. I subtracted all Y DNA in eastern Europe that came in the last 10,000 years (almost all was Indo European Balto Slavic R1a1a1b) and I2a1b was over 70% even in poland and Russia. modern Polish and Russians also probably trace most of their ancestry to the I2a1b people maybe even more than Yugoslavians.

Also even though traditionally people have thought Italians and Greeks are related they are not. Greeks are a mixture of eastern European and mid eastern Greeks are defintley mainly east euro but have higher amounts of mid eastern than any Europeans. Italians are a mixture of first paleolithic (over 10,000ybp) western Mediterranean European I2a1a and Neolithic (10,000-6,000ybp) G2a people who did not come from Europe but would have been mainly European by the time they arrived in Italy. modern sardine are 100% from this mix and have been almost completley genetically isolated on the sardine island or over 5,000years.

Then Italiens also have a significant amount of Italo Celtic R1b S28 alps blood which came to Italy 3,000ybp. Then finally they have a significant amount of mid eastern blood like Greeks and at about the same rate the European side of Greeks and Italians is unrelated well i guess maybe 20,000ybp it was related. This is all my opinion off DNA.

Bosniak
20-07-13, 14:25
They were not just R1b, but the full group that I mentioned above, with probably I2a2b being the most numerous by a little bit. I think this because I count haplogroups of Albanians as a hobby and have studied for a while the haplogroups of Europe.


Okay. But am not sure if I got you right. Did you mean the hapolgroup I2a1b is Illyrian when you said I2a2b or did you mean that the I2a2b is a seperate one?

MongolSerboSlav
22-07-13, 18:21
This is going to be intressting. So according to you what genetics did the Illyrians belong to?
Take a look at genetics of Northern Albanians. They desend from Illyrians with little Slavic mixture.

MongolSerboSlav
22-07-13, 18:24
They were not just R1b, but the full group that I mentioned above, with probably I2a2b being the most numerous by a little bit. I think this because I count haplogroups of Albanians as a hobby and have studied for a while the haplogroups of Europe.
You hold the wrong views about genetics of Illyrians. The bosses of Illyria always were the E-V13 people. R1b people were slaves working for E-V13+J2 people. R1b never ruled Illyria.

kamani
22-07-13, 19:32
Okay. But am not sure if I got you right. Did you mean the hapolgroup I2a1b is Illyrian when you said I2a2b or did you mean that the I2a2b is a seperate one?

I meant I2a2b, the La Tene hg. The 15% Albanian I2a is mostly I2a2b but the 2-3 published papers on this topic do a good job hiding this fact, they only say vaguely I2a. I2a1b-Dinaric probably came in the balkan in the middle ages.

sparkey
23-07-13, 18:36
I just want to say modern Yugoslaviens decend from Illyrians or anyone in Illyrian areas.

Map of Y DNA I2a1 formally known as i2a the eastern european I2a1 is I2a1b except for some in Britan and Ireland.

You're running into a fallacious argument right away here. Modern frequency distributions do not imply ancient frequency distribution. Modern diversity distributions are much stronger indicators (as long as you take pooling and total displacement possibilities into account).

Maciamo has a good discussion of this here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/25644-Why-it-is-wrong-to-assume-that-a-haplogroup-originated-where-it-is-most-frequent-now).


I2a1b spread out of southern Europe about 20,000ybp it has been in eastern Europe for over 15,000 years.

That's a bit old for M423+, and doesn't match its highest diversity areas well. What's your evidence for it?


Balto Slavic aka cordoded ware culture invasions of central and northern eastern Europe killed off many of the I2a1b paternal lines. I subtracted all Y DNA in eastern Europe that came in the last 10,000 years (almost all was Indo European Balto Slavic R1a1a1b) and I2a1b was over 70% even in poland and Russia. modern Polish and Russians also probably trace most of their ancestry to the I2a1b people maybe even more than Yugoslavians.

All highly doubtful. Most of these people have a greater variety of R1a than I2a1b! Anyway, in performing that calculation, you're not successfully arguing that I2a1b is non-Slavic, you're just assuming it a priori and going with it.

sparkey
23-07-13, 18:38
I meant I2a2b, the La Tene hg. The 15% Albanian I2a is mostly I2a2b but the 2-3 published papers on this topic do a good job hiding this fact, they only say vaguely I2a. I2a1b-Dinaric probably came in the balkan in the middle ages.

This is actually really interesting. De Beule doesn't mention Albanians in his writings on eastern I2a2b (https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/summary/the-east-european-connection). Are you getting this fact from DNA projects?

Eldritch
23-07-13, 19:32
This is actually really interesting. De Beule doesn't mention Albanians in his writings on eastern I2a2b (https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/summary/the-east-european-connection). Are you getting this fact from DNA projects?
I-L38 is extremely rare everywhere so i'd doubt it's particularly common in Albania.

zanipolo
25-07-13, 08:46
spanish presentation on illyrian tribes

http://www.anthroinsula.org/resources/Iliri%20-spanish%20presentation.pdf

Bosniak
31-07-13, 13:54
spanish presentation on illyrian tribes

http://www.anthroinsula.org/resources/Iliri%20-spanish%20presentation.pdf

So.. what conclusions can we draw from that study? According to that presentation the tribes Autariatae and Delmatae are mostly of I1b genetic. Is it correct to say that the Bosnians and Dalmatians are the descedents of those tribes?

sparkey
31-07-13, 17:10
So.. what conclusions can we draw from that study? According to that presentation the tribes Autariatae and Delmatae are mostly of I1b genetic. Is it correct to say that the Bosnians and Dalmatians are the descedents of those tribes?

The presentation seems to assume that ancient tribes carried the exact same haplogroups in the exact same frequencies as modern people living in their areas. It's a very strange assumption. I wouldn't read too much into it.

kamani
31-07-13, 22:08
This is actually really interesting. De Beule doesn't mention Albanians in his writings on eastern I2a2b (https://sites.google.com/site/haplogroupil38/summary/the-east-european-connection). Are you getting this fact from DNA projects?

I was very surprised too when I discovered this. I get it from my own counts of y-dna of Albanians. They're exactly 15% I2a2b, like the published studies vaguely confirm by just saying I2a. Maybe one of them was I2a1-Dinaric. Linguistically this fits perfectly with the Albanian language, which is one of oldest IE branches all on its own, with a few experts having traced it to Central/North Europe. Maciamo too discovered traces of "German" dna in Albania/Greece/Macedonia area; first thought it was the Goths than realized it was way too much of it to be the Goths.

sparkey
31-07-13, 22:36
I was very surprised too when I discovered this. I get it from my own counts of y-dna of Albanians. They're exactly 15% I2a2b, like the published studies vaguely confirm by just saying I2a. Not a single one of them was I2a1-Dinaric.

It's odd; if studies found I2-L38, I'd think they'd be more likely to call it "I2b" or "I2b2"... not many studies, even now, use up-to-date ISOGG nomenclature. I don't know any study of Albanians that does that.

Rootsi 2004 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/) is the study that addresses the question most directly, as far as I can tell. They sampled 106 Albanians. Using their nomenclature, I2a-Din should fall under their "I1b* P37" label, and I2-L38 should fall under their "I* M170" label. For Albanians, they give 17% under "I1b* P37" and 0% under "I* M170." That contradicts you pretty directly.

That doesn't necessarily mean that Rootsi found a bunch of I2a-Din, but they definitely tested P37, and what else is that likely to be?

Luan
31-07-13, 23:49
I hate that studies never mention what clade of R1b is found amongst Albanians. Since there are few, myself included, I would guess the majority are R1b1a2a1 R-L23/L150.

kamani
01-08-13, 01:20
Rootsi 2004 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181996/) is the study that addresses the question most directly, as far as I can tell. They sampled 106 Albanians. Using their nomenclature, I2a-Din should fall under their "I1b* P37" label, and I2-L38 should fall under their "I* M170" label. For Albanians, they give 17% under "I1b* P37" and 0% under "I* M170." That contradicts you pretty directly.

I'm not sure that in Rootsi 2004, I2a2b would fall under M170, but I can see the 17% under P37..
Some explanations could be:
1. for Albanians that is the the Sardinian or the British clade.
2. Rootsi bs-ed to fit his conclusions and did not do deep clade testing in Albania. Because it's such an odd twist, he did no expect what I am saying to happen.
3. Rootsi also put I2a2b under P37, back in 2004.

I have just collected data about a few Albanians (~70) who have done dna testing with companies like 23AndMe and such, so by I2a2b I mean whatever 23AndMe means by I2a2b. Their haplogroup percentages are suprisingly close to the published papers so far, with the further specification I2a->I2a2b. I can also publish the R1b percentage breakdowns if anyone is interested.

sparkey
01-08-13, 03:05
by I2a2b I mean whatever 23AndMe means by I2a2b

According to 23AndMe (https://www.23andme.com/you/labs/haplogroup_tree_mut_mapper/results/?lineage_type=paternal&haplogroup=I2a2b), by "I2a2b" they mean L69.2+, which is I2a-Din and I2a-Disles (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf).

Sile
01-08-13, 08:30
I hate that studies never mention what clade of R1b is found amongst Albanians. Since there are few, myself included, I would guess the majority are R1b1a2a1 R-L23/L150.

Go to R1b.org and you can read about R-L23 being discussed, latest I read is if its eastern balkans ( moldovian ) or anatolian

Sile
01-08-13, 08:33
So.. what conclusions can we draw from that study? According to that presentation the tribes Autariatae and Delmatae are mostly of I1b genetic. Is it correct to say that the Bosnians and Dalmatians are the descedents of those tribes?

This below is the paper work for post 217
http://www.anthroinsula.org/resources/Iliri-english%20text%20version.pdf

the conclusion is there.

Its based on Starkey rooti 2004 and many other paper ( see references in the link )

results are gathered using SNP, STR and FST and other methods.


Note: I could only find an abstract version:good_job:

kamani
01-08-13, 09:46
According to 23AndMe (https://www.23andme.com/you/labs/haplogroup_tree_mut_mapper/results/?lineage_type=paternal&haplogroup=I2a2b), by "I2a2b" they mean L69.2+, which is I2a-Din and I2a-Disles (http://knordtvedt.home.bresnan.net/Tree%20and%20Map%20for%20Hg%20I.pdf).
I see your point, thanks. What do you think is the chance that for Albania it is I2a-Disles? (I don't know much about its spread)

sparkey
01-08-13, 17:29
I see your point, thanks. What do you think is the chance that for Albania it is I2a-Disles? (I don't know much about its spread)

Probably low. I've seen samples in places like Germany, so it's probably not exclusive to Britain, but I don't know of any significant presence in the Balkans.

vetus
01-10-13, 02:11
So many people have so many opinions. The only reason you guys know about illyria is because greek and roman writers decided to write about them. But they also wrote that rome went to war with illyria, there were 3 wars actually between rome and illyria, the last war ended in 168BC with rome conquering illyria. After that the illyrians were romanised. Their language was lost and their culture too. They began speakin vulgar latin, because thats what their conquerors were speaking at that time. Like I said illyrian language was lost, and since they didn't write their language, they left no record. We don't know what their language was like. But what we do know is that they were romanised and began speaking vulgar latin. If you want to find the descendants of illyrians today, they will have to be romance speakers in the balkans. The only people i know in the balkans that speak latin derived language are the vlachs of greece, albania, macedonia and a few other countries. Based on linguistic grounds, these are the only people who can claim descent from illyrians

Marko94
02-10-13, 13:47
So many people have so many opinions. The only reason you guys know about illyria is because greek and roman writers decided to write about them. But they also wrote that rome went to war with illyria, there were 3 wars actually between rome and illyria, the last war ended in 168BC with rome conquering illyria. After that the illyrians were romanised. Their language was lost and their culture too. They began speakin vulgar latin, because thats what their conquerors were speaking at that time. Like I said illyrian language was lost, and since they didn't write their language, they left no record. We don't know what their language was like. But what we do know is that they were romanised and began speaking vulgar latin. If you want to find the descendants of illyrians today, they will have to be romance speakers in the balkans. The only people i know in the balkans that speak latin derived language are the vlachs of greece, albania, macedonia and a few other countries. Based on linguistic grounds, these are the only people who can claim descent from illyrians
Exact bro!
But according to slavs the illyrian speak a slavs language and they have never been latinized.

RHAS
14-11-13, 04:22
"Paternal genetic heritage was studied on DNA from 1,141 individuals analyzed for Y chromosome markers (data from the Institute for Anthropological Research, Zagreb, Croatia and from the published sources) (Barač et al., 2003; Rootsi et al., 2004; Peričić et al., 2005a, 2005b). The individuals were from the continental parts of the Balkan peninsula, the north-west Adriatic and the south-east Alpine areas as well as from the Eastern Adriatic islands, i.e. the areas where the different Illyrian trybes settled during the Iron Age period. The sample was analyzed for Y chromosomal haplogroup frequencies in 9 populations and classified as I1a, I1b*-P37, R1a-SRY1532, R1b-M173, E3b1-M78 and J2e1 haplogroups."
Language Bounderies and Microevolutionary processes in South-Eastern Europe.
http://www.anthroinsula.org/resource...%20version.pdf

Garrick
16-11-13, 20:16
So.. what conclusions can we draw from that study? According to that presentation the tribes Autariatae and Delmatae are mostly of I1b genetic. Is it correct to say that the Bosnians and Dalmatians are the descedents of those tribes?

And Serbs too. Maciamo gave very good figures:
I2a
Bosnia and Herzegovina: 55,5% (about 1.100.000 males)
Serbia: 33% (about 1.200.000 males)
Croatia: 37% (about 810.000 males)

I have discussed a lot about it with Albanians. South Illyrian tribes are E-V13, which is dominant haplogroup of Geg Albanians. But another Illyrian tribes are mostly I2a, R1a etc. Otherwise Geg Albanians from all the people of the Balkans have the lowest percent of I2a.

Some Albanian and another sources claim that word Illyr/Illyrian derives from Hamitic, precisely Cushitic word il, ila, ili=eye, of which can be derived light, star etc. It has logic because haplogroup E-V13 originaly comes from Africa (subclade of haplogroup E-M81 from Egypt)

However, my opinion is that word Illyr/Illyrian can derive from South Slavic: Serbian/Croatian/Bosnian word: ilo, ila = loam.

Loam is type of soil consisting of sand, silt and clay. Loam is a suitable soil for serpents. In Serbs/Slavic/Dinaric people was strong cult of serpent. Serpent is related with female goddess. Also, loam is Good material for pottery and construction of houses (it is the famous indigenous Illyrian pottery).

Albania
17-11-13, 01:36
Now slavs are illyrians..this is absurd....I2a tipic slavic is not illyrian open 1 map and you can see...only slavs..

Albania
17-11-13, 01:38
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Albania
17-11-13, 01:41
And now illyrian language is slavic ...and what is Bardhylis in slavic ? Patetic..

adamo
17-11-13, 01:44
Illyrians were NOT Slavs BUT none the less there is 15-25% R1a ! I would estimate all across the Balkans.

adamo
17-11-13, 01:45
There is some Slav presence surely that spilled down there

Bardhyl
17-12-13, 14:50
I have a question, I am 23 year old master student, Albanian (from Todays Macedonia) living in Switzerland. What is now the point? Do greeks accept us as illyrians or not? And let away pls the Epirus theory. And also i know Illyria made have been called a lot of people which probably werent all the same (typical far northern people)

I am new to this forum, and the Genetics similarities of greeks and albanians made me curious?
Is E-V13 old in Balkans? Pls give me a number in years.
Is J2 old in balkans?

with a lot of respect to all the people here, no matter if albanian, greek, serbs, croatian, bosnians, bulgarians, etc.

bardhyl matoshi

albanopolis
17-12-13, 15:51
I have a question, I am 23 year old master student, Albanian (from Todays Macedonia) living in Switzerland. What is now the point? Do greeks accept us as illyrians or not? And let away pls the Epirus theory. And also i know Illyria made have been called a lot of people which probably werent all the same (typical far northern people)

I am new to this forum, and the Genetics similarities of greeks and albanians made me curious?
Is E-V13 old in Balkans? Pls give me a number in years.
Is J2 old in balkans?

with a lot of respect to all the people here, no matter if albanian, greek, serbs, croatian, bosnians, bulgarians, etc.

bardhyl matoshi

Wrong place for scientific ideas Bardhyl! Internet is a more versetile place. "Google" Illyria and a lot of information will pop up.

Bardhyl
17-12-13, 16:11
Wrong place for scientific ideas Bardhyl! Internet is a more versetile place. "Google" Illyria and a lot of information will pop up.

I have collected a lot of historical information trust me, but i am new to this genetics thing and was asking about the similarities of albanians to greeks and also to illyrians? Yllirians?


with respect


bardhyl

kamani
17-12-13, 17:09
I have collected a lot of historical information trust me, but i am new to this genetics thing and was asking about the similarities of albanians to greeks and also to illyrians? Yllirians?


with respect


bardhyl
This is all very speculative but here it goes:
E-v13 were the pelazgians, indigenous inhabitants from the stone-age. Then came minorities of Indo-European invasions of: Greeks, Illyrians, and Thracians. Illyrians and Thracians came from the North-West (Germany) through the Danube corridor, Greeks came from the North-Eastern steppes (Russia, but they're not slavic). These tribes mixed with the Pelasgians. Then the new Illyrians and Greeks were hit by waves of phoenicians, persians, and romans. Then they were hit by waves of slavs. That's why both Albanians and Greeks have close percentages of the same bizarre mix of y-dna.
The Illyrians of Croatia and Bosnia were somewhat decimated after the Bato rebellions. Then there was a period of dark ages after the fall of the Roman Empire, when various barbarian tribes went through that area; and the latest permanent settlers were the slavs around the 6-th century.

adamo
18-12-13, 12:14
The Illyrians were not indo-Europeans, although many of their tribes were later celticized. The Illyrians where the original dwellers of the Dalmatian region by the Adriatic Sea; the thracians where a derivative of them. They were y-DNA I2a2 and represent many modern Croatians, Bosnia-herzegovinans, Slovenes and some Serbs, Romanians, Albanians etc.

mihaitzateo
18-12-13, 14:38
The Illyrians were not indo-Europeans, although many of their tribes were later celticized. The Illyrians where the original dwellers of the Dalmatian region by the Adriatic Sea; the thracians where a derivative of them. They were y-DNA I2a2 and represent many modern Croatians, Bosnia-herzegovinans, Slovenes and some Serbs, Romanians, Albanians etc.

No one knows what Thracians were.
I do not think they were descendants of Illyrians ,since they are mentioned as being a very large population (Thracians).
I know how Albanians are telling non-sense,that they are Ilyrians and how Greeks are telling another non-sense,that they are almost same with ancient Greeks.
Not possible.
I think K36 admixture results are most wide for today Greeks,from Europe,lots of them have even Feno-scandian admixture,even more North-Sea admixture,Red sea admixture,etc.
Albanians results are not that wide,but still very wide.
No one is descendant of only Thracians,or only Ilyrians,this is what admixture tests are saying.
People from Balkans,including Greeks and Albanians,are a mixture of populations,Old Greeks,Thracians,Ilyrians,Goths and other Germanic tribes,Celts,Slavs,Romans and so on.

adamo
18-12-13, 14:49
Thracians and Dacians were I2a2 people derived from the Illyrians and their civilization off the Adriatic coast.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 17:06
Thracians and Dacians were I2a2 people derived from the Illyrians and their civilization off the Adriatic coast.

Are you sure about this, because i2a seems to be very much on slavic speaking countries.

i quote:Haplogroup I2a1b-L621

This branch is found overwhelmingly in Slavic countries. Its maximum frequencies are observed among the Dinaric Slavs (Slovenes, Croats, Bosniaks, Serbs, Montenegrins and Macedonians) as well as in Bulgaria, Romania, Moldavia, western Ukraine and Belarus. It is also common to a lower extent in Albania, Greece, Hungary, Slovakia, Poland, and south-western Russia. I2-L621 (L147.2+) is also known as as I2a-Din (for Dinaric).

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age.

source: is on eupedia haplogroup i2, unfortunately i am not alloqed yet to post links....

this shows that i2a doesnt show illyrian heritage or thraco-dacian.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 17:27
This does mean, that if we connect the genetics with the history- history taught us that slavs came at the time of the year 600 which carried on them i2a-din and r1a. And the high percentage of i2a shows that these regions i2a is probably most of the medieval slavs than of the illyrians, because if there were so many illyrians why couldnt they resist to change the language into slavic? Whereas according to eupedia (sorry am not allowed to post link) the region of albania greece kosovo and montenegro could mostly resist the slavic invasion.

adamo
18-12-13, 17:44
Yes; the R1a Slavs invaded towards east-Central Europe 600 A.D. No, they did not, for the last time, bring I2a with them, or any I for that matter. The I2a rather I attribute to a certain continuity of "southern proto-Europeans" among those men that were in Europe "before the indo-Europeans".

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 17:50
The Illyrians were not indo-Europeans, although many of their tribes were later celticized. The Illyrians where the original dwellers of the Dalmatian region by the Adriatic Sea; the thracians where a derivative of them. They were y-DNA I2a2 and represent many modern Croatians, Bosnia-herzegovinans, Slovenes and some Serbs, Romanians, Albanians etc.

You people are mixing things i2a2 is more on germans and scandinavians and also britains, see on eupedia i2a2 the map.

adamo
18-12-13, 18:00
The P37.2 (I2a) branch called I-M423 most frequent in northern Balkans is what I mean man,you know that. Alright, alright I'm not up to date with phylogeny tree names but you get my point.

Bardhyl
18-12-13, 18:02
Yes; the R1a Slavs invaded towards east-Central Europe 600 A.D. No, they did not, for the last time, bring I2a with them, or any I for that matter. The I2a rather I attribute to a certain continuity of "southern proto-Europeans" among those men that were in Europe "before the indo-Europeans".


I quote again pls read before reply:
The second great expansion of I2a-Din took place with the Slavic migration in the Late Antiquity and Early Middle Ages. I2a-Din had started to mix with Proto-Indo-Euroepan. (Source eupedia i2)

Nowadays northern Slavic countries have between 9% (Poland, Czech republic) and 21% (Ukraine) of I2a-L621, while southern Slavs have between 20% (Bulgaria) and 50% (Bosnia). The higher percentage of I2a-Din in the south owes to the cumulative effect of Bronze Age and Early Iron Age migrations (Dacians, Thracians, Illyrians) and the medieval Slavic migrations. The relatively high percentage of of I2a-L621 in non-Slavic people like the Hungarians (15% ), Albanians (12%) and Greeks (9%) dates from the Bronze Age (source eupedia i2a).

Cumulative effect of bronze age and early iron age and the medieval slavic migration. That is the reason of high percentage of i2a in slavic countries. And we have to consider here more the slavic migration for their i2a because of the fact of their slavic language which shows that the majority of their i2a was problbly because of slavic otherwise they vould have resisted and not soeak a slavic language.