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how yes no 2
13-03-11, 02:56
western linear pottery - Dniester and Danube spread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif


early Slavs - 500 AD - Dniester and Danube spread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png


Dniester
http://www.euratlas.net/geography/europe/rivers/dniester.jpg

Dnieper
http://www.euratlas.net/geography/europe/rivers/dnieper.jpg


Don
http://www.euratlas.net/geography/europe/rivers/don.jpg


historic distribution of Slavic languages - supposed core - along Dniester, on east up to Dnieper

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3e/Slavic_distribution_origin.png


Slavonic tribes 9th century - still far west from Don

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/a/a4/Muromian-map.png/588px-Muromian-map.png

I2a2 core - Dniester and Danube spread, on east up up to Dnieper

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif


R1a core - Don spread

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

how yes no 2
13-03-11, 03:18
let's look at south Slavs to see whether they brought more R1a or I2a2
south Slavs

area_________________I2a2______R1a
Croatia -mainland______32.4%____34.3%
Serbia_______________29.2%____15.93%
Bosnia_______________52.2%____24.6%
Herzegovina__________63.83%___12.06%
Kosovo (Albanians)______2.65%____4.42%
Macedonians__________29.11%___15.19%

Herzegovina is place where Serbs initally settled
nearby Dalmatia is where Croats initially settled
those are areas with highest I2a2

common for all south Slavs is I2a2, while R1a varies a lot...

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg


Serbia and Montenegro
haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

very Slavic Montenegro has as high as 7.4% R1a
while nearby non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia have 12.6%


FYRM
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343

In FYRM, R1a is roughly the same in non-Slavic Albanians and Slavic Macedonians, while I2a2 is quite different!


Greece

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ro2ijOk8JWc/SC8zx6avGkI/AAAAAAAAADQ/7hL-UB7IwTQ/s1600/data.jpg

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

Note R1a much larger among Greek Macedonians and on Crete than in any nearby south Slavic people
and that I peaks in Serrai (also known as Serres) which is from what I figured out area where in ancient Greece Seres (same as Serians) people dwellt and which was also the capital of medieval kingdom of Serb tsar Dusan

how yes no 2
13-03-11, 03:35
now pay attention to core of Slavs around Dniester (and up to Dnieper on east and Pripyat on north, and Vistula on west), and to directions of spread to northwest, north, and northeast from the core

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png

location and directions of spread are very clearly seen in I2a2

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif


but not in R1a whose core is around Don which is area that Slavic people still didnot settle in 9th century...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

how yes no 2
13-03-11, 04:01
thus, it is obvious from previous posts that I2a2 is much better suited to be marker of original Slavic people than R1a

in my current opinion R1a Slavic people largely origin from ancient Hurians/Iranians/Oghur related people (Oghur related people include Bulgars, Hunnic, Avar, Khazar, perhaps Magyar...), while I2a2 Slavic people largely origin from original Slavs and those origin from western linear pottery culture, and from later Serians, Cimmerians (perhaps same as Serians?), Thracians and Veneti...

western linear pottery
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

Thraco-Cimmerians
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

early Slavs
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png

I2a
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif


R1a is to be associated with steppe Kurgan and Dnieper-Don cultures and later Scythians, Sarmatians, Avars, Oghurs...

Dnieper-Don
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png

according to manuscript of Bavarian geographer, state of Zeruiani (Serians/Serbs) was so big that all Slavic people origin from it....
19th century Slovak scientist Pavel Shafarik was based on studying historic data convinced that all Slavic people origin from Serbs and that Serbs was tribal name originally used by all Slavic people

if we look back at location for core of R1a, people who lived in core R1a area are Scythians, Sarmatians, Oghurs, Hunni, Bulgars, Khazars, Magyars...

or in fact mostly speakers of Iranian and Oghur languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghur_languages

in south Slavs R1a peaks in Croats

historian J.B. Bury has no doubt that Croatian legend of origin is same as the one of Bulgarians and is about same Hunnic nation to which related tribes of Bulgars, Cotrigurs and Onogundurs belonged to...

http://books.google.com/books?id=wDIJNvWb48YC&lpg=PA275&dq=Tuga%20Buga%20Bury&pg=PA275#v=onepage&q&f=false

Turkish historian Osman Karatay also speaks of turkish origin of proto-Croats and identifies white-Croats with white-Ogurs
http://books.google.com/books?id=h_Qu1ywX0-wC&lpg=PA102&dq=Croats%20J.B.Bury&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q=Croats%20J.B.Bury&f=false

in fact, Oghur ( = Og + Hur) and H(u)rvat ( = Hur + vat) tribal names might both easily derive from same "Hur" basis as in Hurians..

note also: ak (turkic white = west) + Hur = AkHur = Oghur = west/white Hurians = white/west Croats
(white is color used to denote west in steppe cultures)

worth nothing is that among R1a there is also M458 branch that is present in Europe (along with other R1a branches) but rare in Asia. Therefore, this branch is considered marker of Slavic people... (although it is typically only around half of R1a in Czech, Poles, Slovaks..)
In Croatia however, out of 26.9% R1a only 2.8% is M458

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/full/ejhg2009194a.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf

Although Magyars are not speakers of non-IE Oghur but of Ugro-Finnic non-IE lanuages, another word used for Magyars/Hungarians in Slavic countries is Ugri, which is same tribal name as Oghur... and looking at R1a spread it is clear that proto-Magyars must have been non-IE speaking R1a people...

in Hungary 4.4% out of 20,4% is M458
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/full/ejhg2009194a.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf

so, who says Hunnic/Avar related nations has disappeared from Europe....

possible relation of R1a to Turkic Oghur people also indicates why Scythian people are R1a while their culture reminds of Turkic people more than on Slavic people...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ed/Behistun.Inscript.Skunkha.jpg/170px-Behistun.Inscript.Skunkha.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/03/Scythian_Warriors.jpg/349px-Scythian_Warriors.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/13/MenWithDragons.jpg/250px-MenWithDragons.jpg

Scythian way of dressing we see today e.g. in Turkic Balkars

http://a.abcnews.com/images/icaught/rt_russia_101209_ssh.jpg


The Balkars (Karachay-Balkar: sg. таулу - tawlu, pl. таулула - tawlula) are a Turkic people of the Caucasus region, one the titular populations of Kabardino-Balkaria. Their Karachay-Balkar language is of the Ponto-Caspian subgroup of the Northwestern (Kypchak) group of Turkic languages.

The origins of the Balkar people have not yet been definitively established: various hypotheses have associated them with the Huns, the Khazars, the Bulgars, the Alans, the Zikhs, the Brukhs, the Kipchaks (Qïpchaqs, Polovtsians), the Vengrians, the Chekhs, the Mongol Tatars, the Crimean Tatars, and Turkicized Japhetic groups. Some contemporary scholars attribute their origin to a cultural conglomeration of northern Caucasian tribes with the Iranian-speaking Alans and with Turkish-speaking tribes, among which the most significant were probably the Black Bulgars and the Western Kipchaks. Elements of Balkar culture indicate a long association with the Near East, the Mediterranean, the rest of the Caucasus, and Russia. In the pre-Mongol period (before the thirteenth century) the Balkars were part of the Alan union of tribes, but after the Mongol invasion they retreated into the canyons of the central Caucasus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkars

Balkars have 25.7% R1a which is significantly more than most south Slavs (with exception of Croats from Croatia) 2.2% of 25.7% of R1a in Balkars is M-458(thus 8.6% of their R1a is of European/Slavic origin) , which is very alike the ratio in Croats (2.8% out of 26.9% gives 10.4% of European/Slavic R1a in Croats)...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/full/ejhg2009194a.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf

Unfortunately, there is no data for Bulgars, but I would expect similarly low share of M-458 as in Balkars and Croats because tribal name Balkars is obviously same as Bulgars, and legend of origin of Bulgars and Croats is according to historian Bury identical one...

while Croats are reach in R1a and reach in non-Slavic R1a (only 10.4% is M458 compared to up to 50% in Poles, Czechs and Slovaks)

Serbs are poor in R1a but have significantly higher ratio of Slavic R1a marker M458

4.8% M-458 out of 13.3% R1a in Bosnian Serbs (thus 36% of their R1a is Slavic marker M458)
3.5% M-458 out of 15.9% R1a in Serbia Serbs (thus 22% of their R1a is Slavic marker M458)

there is another big difference in non-Slavic R1a of Croats and non-Slavic R1a of Serbs...
the one in Serbs is according to Klyosov ancient old - much older than the rest of Euroasia (without south Siberia) taken together, while the one in Croats is not older than in the rest of Euroasia...


evidence has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia). (c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf

how yes no 2
13-03-11, 14:42
actually, I mention Thracians above
but Thracians are probably not related people

by comparing vocabularies of Slavic with preserved Illyrian and Thracian words, Illyrian language must have been much closer to proto-Slavic than Thracian...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367548#post367548

this make sense as Slavic people are claimed to be of Venetic origin, and Veneti are in general considered to be somewhat related to Illyrians...



in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

we also have Russian primary chronicle that relates early Slavs with people living around Danube...

After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs. Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf
Russian primary chronicle is written in year 1113. In that time Bulgaria was around Danube till area of today Voivodina, and Voivodina was Hungary.... so, description of Bulgarian and Hungarian lands around Danube in fact is about whole lower flow of Danube from Hungary to Black sea....
this implies Thracian + Scordisci + Pannonians are proto-Slavs....

however, vocabulary of Thracian is foreign to Slavic, and Scordisci are supposed to be Celtic people...

actually, Thrace is not along Danube, Moesia is!!!

how yes no 2
13-03-11, 16:11
If Russian primary chronicle speaks truth then proto-Slavic people are not Thracians but in fact Moesi/Triballi and perhaps Dacians and Pannonians as nations that live along Danube, and Venetic people as people who Russian primary chronicle identifies with Noricans

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Triballi_territory.jpg/250px-Triballi_territory.jpg


The large number of Dacian/Moesian davae (town names end in '-dava' or '-deva') across entire Moesia, parts of Thrace and Dalmatia, indicates a much closer linguistic affinity between Dacian and Moesian languages, than between Moesian and Thracian, hinting to a much closer connection between Dacians and Moesians. The distinctly Thracian -para and -bria endings for town names are mostly present south of Moesia, making Balkan Mountains (Haemus Mons), the linguistic border between Daco-Moesian and Thracian languages and cultures.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesi

town names ending in -dava we can attest in Slavic name for fortress tvrdjava = tvrd (hard /rough /solid) + dava

interesting is that -dava is used in enitre Moesia, parts of Thrace (that would be north Thrace), but also in Dalmatia!!!

now, Austrian sources did use word Illyrians for Serbs...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs#Name_and_etymology

my opinion is that this was not about Illyrians proper but about people of Roman province of Illyria that were according to Strabo Pannonians and Veneti... Illyrians proper lived more or less in what is now Albania and part of Montenegro...

worth nothing is that some Byzantine sources use word Tribali for Serbs


The term "Triballians" (in Greek or Latin) appears frequently in byzantine and other european writers of the middle ages, referring to contemporary events of their time [12][13][14]. Some of these authors explain clearly that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian". For example, D. Chalkondyles (1423-1511), referring to an islamized christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[15]. Also, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155-1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."[16].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

how yes no 2
13-03-11, 17:08
there are attempts to reconstruct Dacian vocabulary


The Dacian language is poorly documented. Unlike for ancient Thracian, or Phrygian, there are no surviving inscriptions in the language.[citation needed] In ancient literary sources, the Dacian names for a number of medicinal plants and herbs survive in ancient texts.[3][4] that includes about 60 plants names with Dioscorides [5]. Some 100 Daco-Moesian placenames are documented and some 20 personal names.[citation needed][dubious – discuss]. Dacian language is also known through several hundred proper names [6], [7], about 900 toponyms [7], and one short inscription[6] [5].
....
Both Georgiev and Duridanov use the comparative linguistic method to decipher ancient Thracian and Dacian names, respectively.
Georgiev argues that one can reliably decipher the meaning of an ancient place-name in an unknown language by comparing it to its successor-names and to cognate place-names and words in other IE languages, both ancient and modern. Georgiev considers decipherment by analysis of root-words(Wurzeletymologien) to be "devoid of scientific value".[29] He gives several examples of his methodology, of which one is partly reproduced here:
The town and river (a tributary of the Danube) in eastern Romania called Cernavodă. In Slavic, the name means "black water". The same town in antiquity was known as Άξίοπα (Axiopa) or Άξιούπολις (Axioupolis) and its river as the Άξιος (Axios). The working assumption is, therefore, that Axiopa means "black water" in Dacian. According to the known rules of formation of IE composite words, this breaks down as axi = "black" and opa or upa = "water" in Dacian (the -polis element is ignored, as it is a Greek suffix meaning "city"). The assumption is then validated by examining cognate placenames. The axi element is validated by another Danube tributary called the Axios, which is today known as Crna reka ("black river") and by the older Greek name for the Black sea, Άξεινος πόντος (Axeinos pontos, later altered to the euphemism Euxeinos pontos = "Hospitable sea"). The opa/upa element is validated by the Lithuanian cognate upė ("water") an by the Romanian cognate apă ("water").[30] (N.B. This etymology was questioned by Russu: Axiopa, a name attested only in Procopius' De Aedificiis, may be a corrupt form of Axiopolis).[31]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language

some of reconstructed words


1) *aba, apa[14] water, river *ab- ("water", "river")

ok, this is about river names....
Slavic ending for river is often -ava

example in ex Yugoslavia Morava, Drava, Sava, Tamnava, Mlava....

thus, 1/1

2) *akmon[17] stone, rock


Slavic kamen = stone, rock

thus, 2/2

3)

*alda (noun),
*alta- (adj.)[21] swamp, waterlogged

I would say this is bad reconstruction as in Illyrian there is
alt = stream

Slavic liti = to flow

thus, 3/3



3/4 *alm- to flow, to stream RN Almus - no match
3/5 *amalas mistletoe PN Amlaidina - no match
3/6 *auras water RN Αύρας - no match
3/7 *axi- black PN Άξίοπα - no match
4/8 *baidas frightening, repulsive - bojati se (to be afraid)
4.5/9 *bal warrior bojnik / vojnik
5/10 *balas,*balos[24] strong [24] *bel ('strong')[24], - balast = carried weight

6/11 *balas white belo
7/12 *berza birch-tree breza
7/13 *bur, buris[28]
7/14 *brukla[29] cranberry

7/15 *buta(s)[31] house, hut, dwelling

8/16 *čuk-[34] peak, summit *ḱu- ("sharp", "pike") čuka = peak

8.5/17 *daba character, nature dobar = good natured

9.5/18 *dava city, fortress tvrdjava = tvrd (hard/solid/strong) + dava = fortress
9.5 / 19 *degis burning, shining PRN Degis
9.5 / 20 *dina place, area, plain PN Amlai-dina
this is Celtic ending!!

10.5/21 *dikas brave or strong, mighty dika = person we are proud of

10.5/22 *dita(s)[38] light (noun), bright (adj.)
11.5 /23 *drasda thrush (bird) drozd
12/24 *dribas, *drigas[40] wild, restless dripac - punk, corrupt person

12/25 *duia[43] swamp or mist, drizzle

13/26 *dumas dark brown tama = darkness
13/27 *galtis sheet-ice, frost
13/28 *genukla[45] pasture, meadow
13/29 *geras[47] good (-natured), kind
13/30 *germas hot, warm PN Γέρμαζα
13/31 *gilus[49] deep
14/32 *gira (giria) forest or mountain gora = mountain
14/33 *granda[51] plank
14/34 *griva[53] river-bed or river-mouth
14/35 kaga[55] sacred, holy
15/36 *kalas catfish? karaš
15/37 *kapas hill, slope
16/38 *karpa to cut, stone [58] krpiti = to sew, to put together
17/39 *karsa cave kras = carst
18/40 *katas stall, animal enclosure, fish-basin katun = shepards temporary house in hills
18/41 *keda chair, stool
19/42 *kerba swampy ground čorba = thick soup
19/43 *kerna bush
19/44 *kerta clearing in a wood
19/45 *kina dry place in a swamp
19/46 *klevas maple-tree PN Clevora
19/47 *krata swampy place or pile, heap
19/48 *kurta grove, glade
20/49 *lug- swamp, morass lug = grove
20/50 *maska pool, puddle
20/51 *medeka glade, small wood
20/52 *musas mould, moss
20/53 *nara(s) river, brook
20/54 *pala, *palma swamp, bog
21/55 *pil- to flow ploviti = to sail, to float
21/56 *preida pine-tree
21/57 *put- to swell, thicken
21/58 *ramus peaceful, restful - mir = peace
21/59 *rō(u)ka drizzle, fine rain
21/60 *rus- to flow
21/61 *san-apa confluence (of two rivers)
22/62 *sausas dry suvo = dry, suša = dry period
22/63 *sermas river, river-current
22/64 *skabas sharp, quick, lively
22/65 *skaudus painful, sad or powerful
22/66 *skuia fir-tree
22/67 *skumbras hill, down
23/68 *spirus fast, quick, rapid brzo
24/69 *stendas stiff, rigid, viscose stena =rock
24/70 *suka tear (ripped), gap
24/71 *suras salty
24/72 *taras chatterer, gossiper
25/73- *tauta people, nation, country četa = group of people (forming military unit)
25/74 *tiras bare, barren, desolate
26/75 *tut- blow, smoke duvati
26/76 *upa river
26/77 *urda stream, brook
26/78 *vaigas fast, rapid
27/79 *varpa whirlpool vir
27/80 *visas fertile, fruitful
28/81 *zalmo- fur, skin, shield šlem = helmet
28/82 *zelmas shoot (of a plant) zemlja = ground
28/83 *zud-as careful, precise
29/84 *zuras hot, shining zora = dawn
29/85 *zuv- fish

conclusion is that reconstructed Dacian words are much closer to proto-Slavic than Thracian words...

but still quite far away for continuity....
though we should keep in mind that this is reconstructed vocabulary....

but we do not really expect Dacians to be proto-Slavic
as Dacians map to earlier eastern linear pottery, while Slavic people map to earlier western linear pottery...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

proto-Slavic would be Triballians in Moesia part of Danube flow, Pannonians in Pannonia and Veneti around Vistula and in Noricum... also Sarmatian Venedi (probably same as Antes) would be among Veneti

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png

all these would be dominantly I2a2 people, perhaps with M458 R1a admixture

LeBrok
13-03-11, 20:19
Some more quick matches. I could find more if I’m more creative.

7/15 *buta(s)[31] house, hut, dwelling – buda, a shack

8/16 *čuk-[34] peak, summit *ḱu- ("sharp", "pike") čuka = peak – ciukac, to hit with a tip of a nife.

9.5 / 20 *dina place, area, plain PN Amlai-dina
this is Celtic ending!! - rodina

10.5/21 *dikas brave or strong, mighty dika = person we are proud of – dziki, wild

15/37 *kapas hill, slope – kopa, a heap

16/38 *karpa to cut, stone [58] krpiti = to sew, to put together – karb, groove.

19/46 *klevas maple-tree PN Clevora - klon

20/53 *nara(s) river, brook – many rivers in Poland contain derivatives of nara.

21/55 *pil- to flow ploviti = to sail, to float - plyn

21/57 *put- to swell, thicken - puchnac

21/59 *rō(u)ka drizzle, fine rain - mrzawka

26/75 *tut- blow, smoke duvati, - trutututu, pretending to play on a trumpet.

I agree that Dalmatian looks closer to Slavic than Thracian and Illyrian. It was probably as related as Baltic languages, other words as long neighboring regions, or languages that had split from same one few thousands years ago.

how yes no 2
16-03-11, 02:02
From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places. The Altziagiri are near Cherson, where the avaricious traders bring in the goods of Asia. In summer they range the plains, their broad domains, wherever the pasturage for their cattle invites them, and betake themselves in winter beyond the Sea of Pontus. Now the Hunuguri are known to us from the fact that they trade in marten skins. But they have been cowed by their bolder neighbors.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

now, Huns as bravest race... one of two Hunish people Sabiri, other Altziagiri...
alziagiri is coin word altzia+ Giri...Giri is possibly about Hurians...Altzia could be about place name or side of world in some language...

thus, Hunish are again Serian/Hurian pair, same as Celtic Scordisci / Helvetti, early Germanic Sciri/Hirri, late Germanic Scirians / Heruli, and last Slavic Serbs / Croats.... interestingly those tribe pairs are mentioned in different times... first Celtic pair, than Germanic pair, than Hunnish pair, than Slavic pair....
Hunish people ruled over Slavic...but late Germanic Scirians and Heruli coexist on same places where later Slavic Serbs and Croats appear......

Hunuguri = Hunish + Hurians

are known for trading with marten skin...
Croats are known to have traded with marten skin in ancient times...
their money is now called kuna = marten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_kuna (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_kuna)


now, let us remind ourselves of Seneca's mention of Serians


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html


he Sabir people inhabited the Caspian Depression prior to the arrival of the Avars. They appear to have been a Turkic people, possibly of Hunnic origin. "The name Sabir has been linked by some scholars with the name Siberia (where it may have been an alternative name for the Ugrian-speaking Mansi/Vogul) and even with the far Eastern Hsien-pi".[1]


Near East in 500 AD, showing the Sabirs and neighboring peoples.
The Sabir lived predominantly in the Pontic steppe region bounded on the east by the Caspian Sea, on the west by the Black Sea and on the south by the Caucasus Mountains. Priscus mentions that the Sabir attacked the Saragur, Urog and Unogur tribes in 461 AD, forcing them across the Volga, as a result of having themselves been attacked by the "Avars". In 515 "they advertised their power in a huge raid south of the Caucasus, in which they attacked Iranian and Byzantine lands with scrupulous impartiality".[2] They eventually came into allegiance with Persia.
In 552 the Sabirs, previously allied with Sassanid Persia, switched their allegiance to the Byzantines and invaded the Caucasus. Soon afterwards, they were conquered first by the Avars and later by the Göktürks. By the 700s they largely vanish from the historical record; probably being assimilated into the Khazars and Bulgars.
The Byzantine document, De Administrando Imperio mentions that the Tourkoi (the Byzantine name for Magyars) were formerly known as Sabartoi asphaloi. This name is generally considered to mean "firm, reliable Sabir". However, Byzantine documents normally refer to Sabirs as Sabiroi.
Some modern historians speculate that a Sabir tribe or faction, called Suars, may have resettled in the Middle Volga region, where they later merged with Volga Bulgarians. Indeed, one of the foremost cities of Volga Bulgaria was called Suar or Suwar. Today, some Chuvash historians postulate that their nation is partially descended from Sabirs.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabir_people

Hunish Sabirs or Sabiri are probably same people as Serboi of Ptolomei in Asian Sarmatica...
they are Serians who live in Caspian mountains unguarded from Sarmatians in Seneca's time...
neighbouring Hunnic Kutrigur, Utrigur and Onogur people are in my opinion all Hurian derived people... same as Croats are likely Hurian derived people...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/NE_500ad.jpg/800px-NE_500ad.jpg

but there are in Seneca's time (1st century AD) also Serians/Seres who live in Europe around Danube...
and before them Serres people in ancient Greece upon mount Athos - mentioned by Aristotle as known for their longevity....


Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

from Serres who dwell upon mount Athos comes town Serres/Serai in Greek or Ser in Serbian
this town in Greece was medieval capital of Serb tsar Dusan and is distinguished from surrounding by high haplogroup I percentage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrai
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

state of Zeruiani is so big that all Slavic people come from it, says Bavarian geographer...


Serians of Asia include Serres who live in Serica (northwest China) and produce silk, as well as
arc from China (serica) to India,,,, Serians from this arc are very likely Pasthun Sarbans of today.....

Serians in 6th century Europe are probably Scirians in Bavaria and Sorabi north of them....
their neighbours are Heruli....Heruli is another tribal name derived from Hurian...
Scirians and Heruli regarding their positions could be ancestor of today Serbs and Croats as this is location that matches the one from which they came to Balkan as written in book De administrando imperio

http://books.google.com/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

could it be that originally Serians are I2a2, and Hurians are R1a?

e.g. Heruls on map above match white Croatia and also hotspot of R1a in south Poland
note also lack of R1a in Caspian highlands where Sabirs/Serboi or Serians of Caspian highlands lived...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

Serrai/Serres area is hotspot of I in Greece (36%) ....Scirians might be cause of I2a2 hotspots in Bohemia from which Serbs came to Balkan... I2a2 is present in area where used to live Sabirs/Serboi... Chuvash people claim descend from Sabirs...it would be interesting to see their genetics... hotspot of I2a in Kurds in Asia minor is perhaps due to Cimmerians as it matches their location and supposed settlement in Cappadocia...tribal name Kurds might have same origin as Serbs, Sabirs, Serboi, Sarbans, Sherdana (sea peoples - there is place named after them Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt)...

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

iapetoc
16-03-11, 05:51
and that I peaks in Serrai (also known as Serres) which is from what I figured out area where in ancient Greece Seres (same as Serians) people dwellt and which was also the capital of medieval kingdom of Serb tsar Dusan

Serres was capital of Dusan????????
comes from Sirris not serians an Anciennt Persian Godess, the older Pelasgic name of Godess Demeter
midlle eastern Godess, Remember Serres was the Boarder of Greeks and Persians
the Darnakes

as infact that I in Serres is connected with AGrinion, Agrianes Thracians etc

remember Paeon was son of Agrios, Endymion etc
Paeoni were Tracian, and Serres area and Syntike are considered Thracians,
if you can find a more Data mutation in Agrinion that could help you on who the thracians
(for me I people) were, comparing with Serres .

REad Herodotus E Siropaiones and Persians, Area Dari-naka (Darius Land)

http://www.darnakas.gr/darnakasonomasia.htm

and also find who were Trivoli people (trivoli is thorn plant) (Tribali of Dusan)
Besides Darnakochoria rea the virb eat is chlap-akias0 from Hleb-Hlap = Bread,
their dialect is very ancient and have mainly Greek-Aeolic but Thracian and Prsian words also plenty, and many unknown
they lived isolated marry only tribe members as pomaks do in Greece.
remember that Greek pomaks are genetically different that Bulgarian pomaks

as in Fact the Thracian name for Phylakai town is Surdi - Serdi (both mean guardians)
and town SerVia and next town is Gullea (Kulla - kale - Kelli) (fiortress)
surdi serdi curdi etc means guardians, Calla - Celli- means fortress that is known,

But for me it would be very interesting to find and compare Agrinion and east GR Makedonia I people (M-?? Dys etc)

besides Thracians in Gr Magnesia area Sesklo - Dimini before Pelasgians arrival had Linear pottery from 7000 Bc which means that pottery culture expand north in Danube as Thracians moved north,
remember Tharseis (thracians) is people that live that lived in Balkans and north before Javans (Yunans -Iayan - Pelasgic people)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesklo

it is interesting the change from Linear to Cardium, from Thracian to Pelasgic as the fact that Europe was invaded from south to North and not from North to south as many claim

The culture of Sesklo is crucial in the expansion of Neolithic into Europe. Dating and research points to the influence of this culture to other Balcanic (Karanovo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karanovo) I-II and Starčevo-Körös (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star%C4%8Devo-K%C3%B6r%C3%B6s)) which seem to originate here, and will be these which will stimulate the birth of the important Danubian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danubian) Neolithic current. Also, it is thought[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)] that the differentiated settlements of pre-Sesklo can be, at least partly, responsible for the origin of the Mediterranean Neolithic (Cardium pottery (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardium_Pottery)). So it can be said that, with some geographically isolated exceptions, European Neolithic seem to originate here: in the Thessalia of Sesklo


The "invasion theory" states that the Sesklo culture lasted more than one full millennium up until 5000 BC when it was violently conquered by people of the Dimini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimini) culture. The Dimini culture in this theory is considered different from that found at Sesklo.

4800 Bc few centuries after Pelasgic invasion (est 5500 BC)

so I people were in Balkans much Before 7000 BC

it is obvius that Thracians +Pelasgic made Greek culture and language
and Thracians + celts make Illyricum culture
Thracians +baltic make Slavic language (old church slavonic)
and area of daci and Bulgaria Kept more the old Thracian, than Greece and Illyricum
the many attempts to put Greek to slavic languages has to do that is connected from ancienty,
that is because of Thracians, who for me were a proto-slavic language, and a proto Greek language
I gave many examples in many other posts

how yes no 2
17-03-11, 03:37
Slavic people are pretty sure Venetic in origin... not just because Jordanes said so...see:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367949#post367949
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367956#post367956
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367958#post367958

in addition to Veneti,
Pannonians and Thracians/Dacians should be investigated regarding origin of proto-Slavic people...

Beckovsky
17-03-11, 07:31
How yes no:

The core Slavic population - in terms of language, culture, ethnic consciousness - are people of Poland, Czecho-Slovakia, Belorus and Western Ukraine. R1a is clearly a dominant Y-DNA there. I understand your points about South Slavs and I2a2 - and their descent from one of the ice age refuges. But it seems to me that it is an accepted historical fact that the original tribes speaking Slavic languages came from the northern Carpathian, Visla lowlands and east towards Belarus and Dnieper river.

I am also familiar with Safarik's writings in the 19th century. He speculated that the tribal name Srb (Serbian) was one of the original terms by which the Slavs self-identified. One of them, but not the only one. The others that he considered likely were: Czech, Lech, Polan, ... The term Srb is still very widespread among Slavic nations - there are Sorbs (Srbi) in south-eastern Germany, there are numerous proper names that use Srb, and the use of consonant "r" as a middle sound is quite typical of Slavic proper names (see Praha, Brno, Trnava, Trencin, ....).

But why would you overlook the strong R1a linkages to the original core groups of Slavs? It is in my view unlikely that I2a2 Slav speakers would manage to transfer the language to this - seemingly - much larger group in the area where Slavic tribes originated.

iapodos
17-03-11, 10:26
Slavic nations as we see them today are clearly I2a2 Dinaric +R1a1 mix. Ethnogenesis of Slavs were long process and various peoples were part of that.
It is clear that core Slavic homeland (Pripyat) is not only the highest freqency I2a2 region on the east, but also place where first and original Slavic hydronims appeared.
"Considering Ptolemy's Ouenedai and their location along the Baltic sea, a German linguist, Alexander M. Schenker, underlines that the vocabulary of the Slavic languages shows no evidence that the early Slavs were exposed to the sea. Proto-Slavic had no maritime terminology and even lacked a word for amber which was the most important item of export from the shores of the Baltic to the Mediterranean. In view of this, the very fact that Ptolemy refers to the Baltic as the Venedic Bay appears to rule out a possible identification of the Veneti of his times with the Slavs.[18]. Schenker's conclusion is supported by the fact that to the east of the Ouenedai, Ptolemy mentions two further tribes called Stauanoi and Souobenoi, both of which have been interpreted as possibly the oldest historical attestations of Slavs."
So there was Venedi (R1a1) on the northwestern direction from proto Slavs (I2a2). Synthesis of this two populations creeated a people of Slavs in the first centuries AD. Some of Slavic nations like Poles or Lusatian Serbs have more Venedic (R1a1) component, and others like Serbs(I2a2) more Slavic component. It is well known fact that western Slavs are known by the name Wends and south Slavs by the name Sklavenoi.
And about Antes, third group of Slavic peoples.
"The Tabula Peutingeriana, originating from the 4th century AD, separately mentions the Venedi on the northern bank of the Danube somewhat upstream of its mouth, and the Venadi Sarmatae along the Baltic coast."
So the Antes were probably some southern part of Venedi and closer to them (which means R1a1) than to Sklavenoi (South Slavs (I2a2)).

how yes no 2
20-03-11, 20:53
But why would you overlook the strong R1a linkages to the original core groups of Slavs? It is in my view unlikely that I2a2 Slav speakers would manage to transfer the language to this - seemingly - much larger group in the area where Slavic tribes originated.

I do not say there was no R1a at all in early Slavs....some of Slavic tribes were R1a dominant like Vislanes and Croats...


From the 1st century and possibly earlier, the Vistulans (also known as the Vislanes), were part of the Carpian Tribe, which got its name from the area that they lived in, which was beside the Carpathian Mountain Range. In the 9th century, Vistulans created a tribal state, with major centers in Kraków, Wiślica, Sandomierz, and Stradów.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistulans

Vislanes are thus Carpi, which may be about Croats....

I claim I2a2 was dominant in early Slavs because it shows clear match with location and directions of spread of early Slavs....

R1a doesnot show such a correlation also because there were many other R1a people around

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

500 AD
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/59/NE_500ad.jpg/800px-NE_500ad.jpg

700 AD
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Origins_700.png

R1a hotspots match Vislanes (Carpi in origin), Croats (also Carpi in origin?), Balts, and Turkic Avars, Bulgars, Oghurs, Huns, Khazars...

my guess is that those are mostly Scythian people..... there are solid theories that relate proto-Croats with Bulgars and Oghur people...so even Croat R1a can easily be Scythian in origin...

Sarmatians do not fit in R1a because locations of Alans and in fact hole Asian Sarmatia seems to lack R1a...and their other area of influence is Ukraine that is I2a2 hotspot...

as for Venedi, I am convinced that they origin from Veneti and that Veneti were dominantly I2a2 people...some clues for this are I2a* found only in locations of Britanny Veneti and Adriatic Veneti....also in Capadocia bellow Paphlagonia (from where Eneti were expelled in times around Trojan wars due to their conquest with Cimmerians) is I2a island... this island of I2a2 is probably settlement of Cimmerians (as there are historical records indicating settlement of Cimmerians in Capadocia) and Cimmerians may easily be origin of later Sarmatians... which effectively means that Sarmatians and Veneti were from same stock... confirmation for this is that Antes are from same Veneti stock (their tribal name is clear derivation from Eneti) and also Sarmatians and fitting I2a2 hotspot... sure Venedi/Veneti/Antes had some R1a... but that is in my opinion from assimilated Scythians while core of early Slavs was Venetic I2a2 people

how yes no 2
21-03-11, 23:56
interesting thread regarding Slavic origin...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26233

btw. where Gomer/Cimmerians are on map showing world known to Hebrews is now I2a island in Asia minor
Gomer is son of Japhet and thought to be ancestor of Germanic people....this shows that name Germanic was originally applied to all haplogroup I people....
One of Gomer's sons is Riphat... map puts Riphat in Paphlagonia ...in location of Eneti.... now if Gomer were haplogroup I peoploe that match island of I2a now in Asia minor, what would be people who originate from Riphat the son of Gomer?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2b/Noahsworld_map.png/402px-Noahsworld_map.png
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
Besides, we know that early Slavs are of Veneti race (Jordanes) and that Slavs origin from Japhet (Russian primary chronicle)

note tribal name Rosch among Schytians... and how neither Rosch nor Scythians are marked as Japhet's line..... also Taurus that matches R1a spread in Asia minor is not marked as originating of any of 3 sons of Noah...thus, story of Noah's sons is probably related to people from IJ haplogroups... perhaps R1a and R1b lived in times of flood probably northern from middle east area where the story probably originated...

anyway, Taurus being not Japhet and also correlating with spread of R1a....
makes me wonder if Taurus is name related to Hurians? because Hurians are in my theory proto-Croats


The Hurro-Urartian languages are an extinct language family of the Ancient Near East, comprising only two known languages: Hurrian and Urartian, both of which were spoken in the Taurus mountains area.
Hurro-Urartian was ergative-agglutinative. It was neither related to the Semitic or Indo-European language families of the region.
Proponents of linguistic macrofamilies have grouped Hurro-Urartian as part of an "Alarodian" phylum, together with Northeast Caucasian and further as "Macro-Caucasian", but these theories are without support in mainstream linguistics.[1]
Hurrian was the language of the Hurrians (occasionally called "Hurrites"), a people who spread to northern Mesopotamia probably coming from the Caucasus starting from 2500 BC[citation needed], and whose apogee was the kingdom of Mitanni (1450–1270 BC). The language was probably extinct by 1000 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurro-Urartian_languages

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg


interesting question is whether Slavic language is originally language of some R1a people, some I2a2 people or some mix of the two....... I think it was language of I2a2 people but was passed to R1a people in distant past in area of Asia minor...

as for proto-Serbs..interesting clue is three-finger salute used by Serbs.... though this salute was reintroduced in recent times in 1990s it was inspired by picture from 19th century of famous painter Paja Jovanovic about gathering of people on which decision about uprising against Turks was made... so this salute might have longer history in Serbian tradition...

http://www.rts.rs/upload/storyBoxImageData/2010/12/16/6725838/Novak%20Tri%20prsta.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta

a wild guess is that it might have originally been of same origin as this one related to Thracian/Phrygian God Sabazios... or Thracian horseman.....now, Thracian /Phrygian God...this is where I2a spread leads to from Eneti area of Paphlagonia and Cimmerian/Gomer area of Cappadocia...to Phrygia and Thrace....

bronze hand used in worship of Sabazios

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/8b/HandOfSabazius.JPG/200px-HandOfSabazius.JPG


Sabazios (Ancient Greek: Σαβάζιος) is the nomadic horseman and sky father god of the Phrygians and Thracians. In Indo-European languages, such as Phrygian, the -zios element in his name derives from dyeus, the common precursor of Latin deus ('god') and Greek Zeus. Though the Greeks interpreted Phrygian Sabazios[1] with both Zeus and Dionysus,[2] representations of him, even into Roman times, show him always on horseback, as a nomadic horseman god, wielding his characteristic staff of power.
...
It seems likely that the migrating Phrygians brought Sabazios with them when they settled in Anatolia in the early first millennium BCE, and that the god's origins are to be looked for in Macedonia and Thrace. The recently discovered ancient sanctuary of Perperikon in eastern Thrace is believed to be that of Sabazios. The Macedonians were also noted horsemen, horse-breeders and horse-worshippers up to the time of Philip II, whose name signifies "lover of horses".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

clearly, Sabazios is coin word... it is about Saba+ Zeus = Serb God or God of proto-Serbs?

also look at these words from Thracian dictionary


sabazias ‘free’ [Old-Bulg. svobod' ‘free’].
..
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

thus, freedom was always very important to Serbs...
btw. "slobodni" = free in Slavic thus Sloveni = slo(bodni) + veni
(Veni being Veneti/Venedi tribal name, also root word of Finish name for Russians - Venäläiset)



Much later, the Byzantine Greek encyclopedia, Sudas (10th century?), flatly states
"Sabazios... is the same as Dionysos. He acquired this form of address from the rite pertaining to him; for the barbarians call the bacchic cry 'sabazein'. Hence some of the Greeks too follow suit and call the cry 'sabasmos'; thereby Dionysos Sabazios. They also used to call 'saboi' those places that had been dedicated to him and his Bacchantes... Demosthenes [in the speech] 'On Behalf of Ktesiphon' [mentions them]. Some say that Saboi is the term for those who are dedicated to Sabazios, that is to Dionysos, just as those [dedicated] to Bakkhos [are] Bakkhoi. They say that Sabazios and Dionysos are the same. Thus some also say that the Greeks call the Bakkhoi Saboi."[12]
...



More "rider god" steles are at the Burdur Museum, in Turkey. Under the Roman Emperor Gordian III the god on horseback appears on coins minted at Tlos, in neighboring Lycia, and at Istrus, in the province of Lower Moesia, between Thrace and the Danube. It is generally thought that the young emperor's grandfather came from an Anatolian family, because of his unusual cognomen, Gordianus.[4] The iconic image of the god or hero on horseback battling the chthonic serpent, on which his horse tramples, appears on Celtic votive columns, and with the coming of Christianity it was easily transformed into the image of Saint George and the Dragon, whose earliest known depictions are from tenth- and eleventh-century Cappadocia and eleventh-century Georgia and Armenia.[5]

now, sculpture of this horseman God are found among Celts, in Lycia and upper Moesia.....possible Lycia connection with proto-Serb I have indicated before ( http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367056#post367056 )..... and modern Serbs were named Triballi by some Byzantine sources.. Celtic link is possible via Scordisci...as upper Moesia between Danube and Thrace is where Triballi and Scordisci are...... also this area of upper Moesia is area where we find culture of of Thraco-Cimmerians and not Thrace.....

so, I think that proto-Serbs were I2a Cimmerians and proto-Slavs was about wider term Venetic people...

again, these are location of Thraco-Cimmerian findings

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

and these are early Slavs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png

now, look at this curiosity:


Among Serb opponents in the Yugoslav wars – Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians – the three-finger salute is usually perceived as provocation, especially when directed at them personally.[citation needed] In response, their forces used the V sign as a victory/defiance sign during the war.[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta


In Croatia, the V sign represents the World War II-era Nazi movement called the Ustase. Extending two fingers into the V sign resembles the letter U, for Ustase.
During the Yugoslav Wars, Croatian troops and paramilitary militia used the sign as a greeting or an informal salute or menacing gesture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign

what is V sign than bull horns, sign of Taurus people or Hurians/Hurites?
and why would extra finger be offensive?

lol, this is funny, what is 3-finger salute than bull (V sign) with big "phallus" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus) ... it's a way to say, perhaps you are bull as you show V sign, but I am real male bull...

why I got this idea? well, look again at thumb of 3-finger salute bronze hand used in worship of Sabazios... and why bull?

Seri and Huri are two mythical bulls...they represent Serians and Hurrians...this division gives much later Serbs and Croats, but I guess also Germanic Sciri and Hirri (later Heruli?)... perhaps also Cimbri and Helvetti... in Balkan Celtic/Thracian Scordisci/Serdi and Illyrian Autoriatae
Serians are I2a people (also I2a1 and I2ab), Hurians are R1a (there are other R1a people though)
Turkic Oghurs are just Ak (turkic for west) + Hur = west Hurians ...similarly Hunnogur mentioned by Jordanes are Hunnish Hurians...


The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

look at this post for better explanation
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365278#post365278


let me take this 3 finger / 2 finger distinction to earlier times and see about possible earlier meanings.....

it was suggested that Sherdana are distinguished from related sea people with bull horn helmets as they have sign in the middle of bull horns...
example Sherdana (people after whom lake in Egypt is named Serbonian bog / Serbonis / Sirbonis)

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples14.jpg

some related sea peoples probably Lukka (Lycian)
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples17.jpg

this sign that Sherdana wear between bull horns could have initially been same in origin as sign carried by Isis...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365030#post365030

look at sign carried by Isis and compare it with the one of Sherdana

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cd/Egypt.IsisHorus.01.png

keep in mind that it is suggested that ancient Macedonians were also originally "horseman" or Sabazios worshipers... and that Sarapis is introduced as God with spread of empire of ancient Macedonians


Following the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great the worship of Isis spread throughout the Graeco-Roman world.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis


why?
because myth of Sabazios was matched to Oziris and to Hapis/Apis - bull deity....

thus, Serapis came to existance...


Serapis or Sarapis was a Graeco-Egyptian god. He was invented during the 3rd century BC at the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm. The god was depicted as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian trappings, and combined iconography from a great many cults, signifying both abundance and resurrection. His cultus was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings, who also built a splendid Serapeum in Alexandria.
...
Under Ptolemy Soter, efforts were made to integrate Egyptian religion with that of their Hellenic rulers. Ptolemy's policy was to find a deity that should win the reverence alike of both groups, despite the curses of the Egyptian priests against the gods of the previous foreign rulers (i.e Set who was lauded by the Hyksos). Alexander the Great had attempted to use Amun for this purpose, but he was more prominent in Upper Egypt, and not as popular with those in Lower Egypt, where the Greeks had stronger influence. The Greeks had little respect for animal-headed figures, and so a Greek-style anthromorphic statue was chosen as the idol, and proclaimed as the equivalent of the highly popular Apis.[2] It was named [B]Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis), which became Serapis, and was said to be Osiris in full, rather than just his Ka (life force).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis


In Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh), was a bull-deity worshipped in the Memphis region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(Egyptian_mythology)


Osiris was the mythological father of the god Horus, whose conception is described in the Myth of Osiris and Isis, a central myth in ancient Egyptian belief. The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. Isis later gave birth to Horus. As such, since Horus was born after Osiris' resurrection, Horus became thought of as a representation of new beginnings and the vanquisher of the evil Set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

Beckovsky
22-03-11, 01:46
Iapodos/ How Yes No:

The theory of Slavic origin described by you is in my view too complicated and large parts of it cannot be verified.

Why Pripiat marshes? I have never understood why would many people always try to put the mythical Slavic homeland in the marshy and inaccessible area of Pripiat that was either unpopulated or very thinly populated until very recently. It is much more likely that the Slavic languages and tribal consciousness were originally from a much larger - and more livable - area of north Carpatians, Visla and Bug river valleys and probably some surrounding areas. Roughly the territories of today's eastern Poland, western Ukraine, northern Slovakia, and parts of Belarus.

I agree that the original Slavic tribes lived inland. But there is a huge area in central-eastern Europe that was inhabited since the last ice age and is much more suitable for habitation. Pripyat marshes are not. Maybe some stragglers lived there (I2b,...), but it is not a likely homeland for any large tribal confederation. Unless, the original Slavs had supernatural procreation and assimilation powers, they had to come from a more suitable environment. And there were clearly more of them.

What you say is also counter-intuitive. Given the large number of Slavs in modern Europe (up to 35% of European population), and given that fhas been the case for over a millenium, it is unlikely that a large, populous group like that had originated in a small, remote, uninhabitable area. The word Venedi is very widespread - it just means "stranger" in archaic proto-IE (like Celtic). Sometimes an explanation for a term found in many different places is that it means something to the surrounding people, not that the people with that name - or similar name - travelled around and are the same.

Something similar is true about the term Srb (Serbian). Any Slavic speakers understands that Srb means something like "feisty, fighting, warrior, even angry", we still have a verb "srdit sa" that means "get angry, start fighting". So the term Srb can simply be a term for the warrior bands living among other less feisty neighbors. The term Pole is obvious: "field dwellers", Lech means is a tribal chief, Chech means people living in the mountains, Slovien means the ones speaking our langauge. It seems to me that the very generic term "Slovien" was originally a term that meant something like "our people, people like us", since they spoke same or similar languages. In other words "nashi" :), or like Suebi among Germans.

That explains the R1a1 dominance in the Slavic homeland. It is likely that I2a were simply a remainder of the natives who lived there pre-Slav expansion. And that includes the Pripiat marshes. You cannot have the R1a1 dominance in the core Slavic regions without Slavs being largely descended from R1a1 forebears. I can also tell you that a lot of the non-R1a1 people in the core Slavic region can easily trace themselves to numerous groups that have moved there in the last millenium (e.g. Germans, Roma, Vlachs, etc...). When you test remote areas that have been largely untouched, the % of R1a1 gets much larger in the core Slavic areas.

how yes no 2
22-03-11, 02:33
. I can also tell you that a lot of the non-R1a1 people in the core Slavic region can easily trace themselves to numerous groups that have moved there in the last millenium (e.g. Germans, Roma, Vlachs, etc...). When you test remote areas that have been largely untouched, the % of R1a1 gets much larger in the core Slavic areas.

perhaps that holds for Russia that R1a is there marker of Slavic spread....but not in south Balkan...

as I have shown on many indications in first few posts on this thread, Slavs in south Balkan are clearly distinguished from non-Slavs exclusively by I2a2
while R1a is much more common among some non-Slavic people than in some Slavic people....

perhaps, best way to look at origin of Slavic people of today is as combination of Cimmerian/Venetic I2a2 and Scythian/Hurian R1a

Beckovsky
22-03-11, 03:42
"perhaps, best way to look at origin of Slavic people of today is as combination of Cimmerian/Venetic I2a2 and Scythian/Hurian R1a"

Well, perhaps not. I was never talking about Russia, it is a territory that was settled much later, so it doesn't belong in this discussion.

Regarding Balkans: Slavs were invaders there, possibly a relatively small group that moved in from the north and east. So making assumptions about the origin of Slavs based on what you read into Balkan DNA data, is at a minimum, unscientific.

You are creating a largely false and speculative history that is unlikely and unverifiable. A much more probable theory of the origin of Slavs is the obvious one in front of us: large ethnogenesis in the northern Carpathian region from IE groups (including sme Iranians based on linguistics), from indigeneous surviving I groups, and from layers of other tribes that had passed through that territory.

Unless there is some strange atavistic agenda lurking behind your theories, I don't understand what your theories are all about. But if you want to be upfront and convincing, use fewer maps (they are only partial data at this point), and word associations, and answer the historical points that I listed above.

how yes no 2
22-03-11, 03:51
first part taken from thread about Macedonia
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=368551#post368551


now about the bull

I mentioned that cause
Bolos
Bol
Bo
Bolinthros
same BOL

but muschar and telec
meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos


actually, there is word Vol/Vo in Serbia
it is about ox

while bull is "bik"
it's about being male or not male bull
distinction between V sign and 3-finger salute
....

btw. key Slavic gods are Perun and Veles

Veles (Cyrillic: Велес; Polish: Weles;Czech: Veles; Old Russian and Old Church Slavonic: Велесъ) also known as Volos (Russian: Волосъ)? (listed as a Christian saint in Old Russian texts) is a major Slavic supernatural force of earth, waters and the underworld, associated with dragons, cattle, magic, musicians, wealth and trickery. He is the opponent of the Supreme thunder-god Perun, and the battle between two of them constitutes one of the most important myths of Slavic mythology.

Perun is in fact easily matched to Hurrian Teshub (same God as Zeus) as Teshub's name is in Hati Taru, and in Hititte/Luwian is Tarhun...


Teshub (also written Teshup or Tešup; cuneiform dIM) was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun (with variant stem forms Tarhunt, Tarhuwant, Tarhunta), although this name is likely from the Proto-Indo-European Perkūnas[1] or the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer.[2][3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub


In Norse polytheism, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, destruction, fertility, healing, and the protection of mankind. The cognate deity in wider Germanic mythology was known in Old English as Þunor and in Old High German Donar (runic þonar ᚦᛟᚾᚨᚱ), stemming from a Common Germanic *Þunraz (meaning "thunder").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor

Similarity of Taru to Germanic Thor indicates that Hati (pre-Hetite people in Asia minor) spoke language alike to Germanic people...
Similarity of Luwian Tarhun to Slavic Perun means that Hittite and/or Luwian people spoke language alike to proto-Balto-Slavic....

Anyway, Teshubs key enemy is Illuyanka - dragon like being from underworld, thus same as Veles...


He is depicted holding a triple thunderbolt and a weapon, usually an axe (often double-headed) or mace. The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs. In the Hurrian schema, he was paired with Hebat the mother goddess; in the Hittite, with the sun goddess of Arinna—a cultus of great antiquity which may ultimately derive from the bull god and mother goddess worshipped at Çatalhöyük in the Neolithic era. Myths also exist of his conflict with the sea creature (possibly a snake or serpent) Hedammu (CTH 348). His son was Sarruma. According to Hittite myth, one of his greatest acts was the slaying of the dragon Illuyanka.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

son of Teshub is Sarruma...let's repeat just this part...

His son was Sarruma. According to Hittite myth, one of his greatest acts was the slaying of the dragon Illuyanka

Sabazios is same as Sarruma? look at this part of text about Sabazios:

The iconic image of the god or hero on horseback battling the chthonic serpent, on which his horse tramples, appears on Celtic votive columns, and with the coming of Christianity it was easily transformed into the image of Saint George and the Dragon, whose earliest known depictions are from tenth- and eleventh-century Cappadocia and eleventh-century Georgia and Armenia.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

Sabazios / Serbs .... Sarruma / Serians....
this could be about nations...

but then if Sabazios is about Serbs, who is dragon/snake Illuyanka?
perhaps E-V13 Illyrians who were moving forward from middle East along south part of Asia minor accross previous Hurian-Serian spreads of R1a and I2a (previous Hati being R1b and perhaps some I or J haplogroup(s) )?


According to the Library and Epitome of Apollodorus, Illyrius was the youngest son of Cadmus and Harmonia who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous ancestor of the whole Illyrian people.[1] Illyrius was specifically born during an expedition against the Illyrians on the side of the Encheleans.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius


In Euripides' The Bacchae, Cadmus is given a prophecy by Dionysus whereby both he and his wife will be turned into snakes for a period before eventually being brought to live among the blest.

In Phoenician, as well as Hebrew, the Semitic root qdm signifies "the east", the Levantine origin of "Kdm" himself, according to the Greek mythographers; the equation of Kadmos with the Semitic qdm was traced to a publication of 1646 by R. B. Edwards.[21] The name Kadmos has been thoroughly Hellenised.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus

and who is Veles/Volos?
Bolos - Taurus area? (after being overwhelmed with E-V13 people)
or Vlah (Roman people) as new historic time enemy?

how yes no 2
22-03-11, 04:29
Well, perhaps not. I was never talking about Russia, it is a territory that was settled much later, so it doesn't belong in this discussion.
key hotspots of R1a are in Russia along Don, in south Poland (or in what was white Croatia) and in Baltic republics...in Hungary, it is central Hungary where Magyars settled....while not in east and west Hungary that cluster with Serb-Croats and Ukraine....
non-Slavic Albanians of FYRM has 2x more R1a than Slavic Montenegro and roughly same as Serbs and Macedonians...while non-Slavic Macedonian greeks has twice more R1a than Slavic Macedonians, Serbs and Bulgars...

do you start to see my point now?



Regarding Balkans: Slavs were invaders there, possibly a relatively small group that moved in from the north and east. So making assumptions about the origin of Slavs based on what you read into Balkan DNA data, is at a minimum, unscientific.

Slavs were invaders in Russia and Poland...

core of their spread is east and central Ukraine
in fact, Russian primary chronicle puts early Slavs in areas around Danube (Serbia, north Bulgaria, Hungary) and in Noricum, and claims that spread to Vistula came from those Danube areas after being pushed by Roman empire... mapping to previous people that would be Veneti derived people in Noricum, Pannonians in Hungary and Dalmatia, Triballi in upper Moesia and Scordisci/Serdi around Danube... now modern Serbs were in some Byzantine sources called Triballi...and relation to tribal name Scordisci/Serdi is obvious....

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

I2a2 is clear marker of Serbs with tribal name sharing same root as for I2a1 Sardinians, I1 Swedes, I1 and I2b Suebi...

split between I1+ I2b and I2a2 explains easily split Germanic/Slavic languages...

Bavarian geographer manuscript speaks of Zeruiani whose state was so big that all Slavs come from it... I have shown in first few post maps that make obvious clear match of spread of I2a2 with spread of early Slavs...while R1a shows nothing alike......and you try to convince me that spread of I2a2 that shows clear correlation with spread of early Slavs has nothing to do with spread of Slavs but is about previous people?

Slavs are of Japhet race according to Russian primary chronicle... and we know that Gomer and thus haplogroup I is of Japhet race... sure you can say that Japhet had other sons except Gomer... but check time distance between split of branches of haplogroups...I doubt that there was tens of thousands of years between Japhet and some of his sons... very likely whole people derived from Noah story involves only IJ haplogroup...

on other hand, according to Klyosov R1a is oldest in Serbia and south Siberia..which may indicate that proto-Serbs were origianaly R1a people and original R1a people...also Sorbs are most R1a dominant people in Europe..


You are creating a largely false and speculative history that is unlikely and unverifiable. A much more probable theory of the origin of Slavs is the obvious one in front of us: large ethnogenesis in the northern Carpathian region from IE groups (including sme Iranians based on linguistics), from indigeneous surviving I groups, and from layers of other tribes that had passed through that territory.
nope, as I stated in this thread the theory about R1a being Slavic originally is much more questionable...

and theories pushed of R1a as Aryans and PIE people...
brief look on spread of R1a shows that non-IE Etruscans had R1a as dominant... and ancient Macedonians...and also non-IE Magyars... and non-IE Scythians and very likely also Turkic people such as Oghurs, Khazars... also there is R1a in Vikings...

so, R1a cannot be taken as exclusively Slavic marker nor as exclusive Slavic marker...a part of it might have been in early Slavs.... and that's all...early Slavs have clear I2a2 signature as I have explained in first few posts...


Unless there is some strange atavistic agenda lurking behind your theories, I don't understand what your theories are all about. But if you want to be upfront and convincing, use fewer maps (they are only partial data at this point), and word associations, and answer the historical points that I listed above.
my theories are search for truth....
R1a Aryan-Slavic-PIE theory is search for validation...
in ancient past, R1a is likely marker for Scythians....
whether Scythians were proto-Slavs is hard to say...
I think not...

iapetoc
22-03-11, 07:59
hmmm
seems like How Yes No find The Creco Aryan Approach, which fits better withancient civilizations, and overpass the Kurgan theory that fits modern times,
seems like genetic searches proves the Greco aryan

According that
G is the far ancient proto aryan speaking,
G gave language and culture to I and J and R1b of minor asia
J dna moved to levant and from them to mediterrean as pelasgic etrurian naval
I dna moved to Balkans as Thracian and from there spread North by foot
an ancient R1a is different than medieval R1a ?
I haven't found a good R1a explanation for Greece and Balkans

probably some of them were hunters of a Holy animal
Like Vikings moved to Iceland in search for holy Fish Salmon
some others were after Aurochs
The aurochs or urus (Bos primigenius), the ancestor of domestic cattle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle), was a type of huge wild cattle which inhabited Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe), Asia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia) and North Africa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Africa), but is now extinct (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct); it survived in Europe until 1627.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs

auroch fits suitable with greek-pelasgic tauros(h) and latin taurus
Aurochs were also known to have very aggressive temperaments and killing one was seen as a great act of courage in ancient cultures (bullfights)
The Swiss canton Uri was actually named after this animal species.
Uri - Churi etc
the paradise Urim is a phrase that Cristians say for happy times
the name Bos - auroch Bos is after Greek-Thracian Βους of koine, from ancient Bol-inthros,
probably there was a tribe or a nation that hunt them, as Indians the american Bisson
but i can not connect it with any Dna,
But crimea area had also name Taurica means auroch land, and argonauts had a bulls head trade mark in sails as good luck,
and many sacrifices as much as 100 bulls in a time, in troyan wars


Now back to theme, I believe that I Dna is the aryan branch that spread in inland Europe before, create cultures, upon which later R1a rulers came, so R1a accepted mainly local language and spread its own words, creating new languages,
the many devastasions of the roman empire fall simply was a fast but before, a connection of I Dna people (proto-slavic speaking) with R1a (baltic) before gothic movements and vikings invasions in Ucraine create a culture that connects linguistic both, in fact the linguistic truth is after Cyrill and Method who unify better differences, and create a Balto-slavic koine which is an artificial language upon living languages, just to purify differences, of older tribals mate, sharing same land and culture.

so for me, although I accepted before the R1a are the slav people, slavic language is the I2 dna language and R1a speakers were more baltic,
and I still believe that thracian is a pre and proto slavic

zanipolo
22-03-11, 09:54
Just a few questions on the slavs as I find the issue of language to use as a fact on a races heritage very silly.

Q1. Is the slavic serbian language 100% the same as the slavic language of Bulgaria, Croatia, Slovenian, Slovak, Poland , Russia etc etc etc? If not then we can assume that as the slavs entered into territory foreign to them , the slavs that entered, bulgaria or damatia etc etc would have accepted into their vocabulary hundreds of words from the area they settled.
This is the most logical answer. So to say that a slavic word is the same as one from a region means that the slavs where here a long time OR even worse still that they where originally slavs.

An example, a landlocked race who migrates to an area by the ocean and tasty salty water would have taken the name of this ocean from the local people they met.

This brings me to the Illyrian, Venetic, Trojan, Thracian, Epirote, Macedonian, Dardanian, Paeonian, odyssian to name a few , peoples that originated in the balkans and italy. These people where the original people.
To say any a slavic in the ancient times is pure speculation.

In the map of a previous post , the map noted as 500AD , we can see the Ostrogoth control of the italy and ancient illyria, this is where the I2a2 came from, and this is where the slavs inherited this DNA.

Q2. How many people in percentage and for how long ( generations)a period does it take to accept a DNA into ones society/race?

Q3. Let us not use linguistics to determine once race be it modern times or ancient times or else we can say the veneti are french as in apple in French is pom, in venetian its pomo and in Italian its mela. or that the English are veneti for using the venetian word of arsenale ( arsenal) or balot ( ballot) to name a few

Moesian
22-03-11, 14:01
I can reply only to Q1 : All Slavic languages in the Middle Ages were very close and mutually understandable. The standard was established from the old Bulgarian - linguists call this language the Slavonic.
The Slavonic was used for translation of the holy books and permitted orthodox christianism has spread through the Slavic speaking countries starting from X c.

Regarding the Thracian words entering the Bulgarian - from the few words known to be Thracian - I can't see ANY relation at all with the Bulgarian.
We must be very careful about any research trying to prove the contrary because since the communist era some enthusiastic Bulgarian authors are trying to prove relation with the mighty Thracians to embellish the national identity of Bulgarians.

Of course many Latin and Greek words entered the Bulgarian language probably since the VII c and later. Did they trough assimilation of local inhabitants or from the vicinity of the East Roman Empire? It's very hard to tell.

iapetoc
22-03-11, 18:15
Just a few questions on the slavs as I find the issue of language to use as a fact on a races heritage very silly.

Q1. Is the slavic serbian language 100% the same as the slavic language of Bulgaria, Croatia, Slovenian, Slovak, Poland , Russia etc etc etc? If not then we can assume that as the slavs entered into territory foreign to them , the slavs that entered, bulgaria or damatia etc etc would have accepted into their vocabulary hundreds of words from the area they settled.
This is the most logical answer. So to say that a slavic word is the same as one from a region means that the slavs where here a long time OR even worse still that they where originally slavs.

An example, a landlocked race who migrates to an area by the ocean and tasty salty water would have taken the name of this ocean from the local people they met.

This brings me to the Illyrian, Venetic, Trojan, Thracian, Epirote, Macedonian, Dardanian, Paeonian, odyssian to name a few , peoples that originated in the balkans and italy. These people where the original people.
To say any a slavic in the ancient times is pure speculation.

In the map of a previous post , the map noted as 500AD , we can see the Ostrogoth control of the italy and ancient illyria, this is where the I2a2 came from, and this is where the slavs inherited this DNA.

Q2. How many people in percentage and for how long ( generations)a period does it take to accept a DNA into ones society/race?

Q3. Let us not use linguistics to determine once race be it modern times or ancient times or else we can say the veneti are french as in apple in French is pom, in venetian its pomo and in Italian its mela. or that the English are veneti for using the venetian word of arsenale ( arsenal) or balot ( ballot) to name a few

to first question is a remarkable,
in Bulgaria the Balkars that invade are considered Huns - Ogurs
not a massive slavic invasion is mentioned in Bulgaria, as it is mentioned in Serbia,
R1a which is considered slavic Dna is very small in south slavic to change language in 200 years from invasions times to Cyrill & Method times,
But in Bu;garia which is considered Slavic, as also in Romania we find thracian words, that can be considred as proto-slavic, as also the Dinaric-Illyrian ancient languages,

Probably From Herodotus times perhaps but surely in Strabon times I2 Dna people who spoke dialects of Thracian or Venedi lived next to R1a people (clear slavic Dna but with language more baltic), >700 years are enough to create dialects that are based in both languages.
so when Cyrill & method create the Alphabet also create a language that can be understood by both, due to co-exist, the balto-slavic,
the new language of cyrill and method was imported to every slavic and baltic speaking nations when accepted christianity,
that is why in Bulgaria where mainly entered the Balkars (huns) speak a dialect of slavic, before christianity, they had pre-slavic language (south Thracian dialect or remnants from Veneti walk through) and after they accepted the baltic elements and became more slavic in area were slavic invasions are not to be mentioned as wide devastation,
that means that cyrill & method Bible was a purification of ex slavic and baltic to mainly a new language common,
when a written language exists, linguists and rulers and people use the written and do not assimilate foreign,
it is imposible a 5 10 15% to change language of rest, except if the people already are familiar to a big % of that language.
so probably slavic R1a people lived, from strabo times, and perhaps before from Herodotus time, next each other with I2 people in north of Carpathia mt

the second part nations you say are the Pelasgians, pelasgians are considered Aryans non IE, pelasgian language relics can be found mainly in Greek, but also in Latin due to Etruscans, etc,
the 3rd and the Key is thracians.
probably thracians lived from ucraine to Greece,
Greek language koine is a mix of Thracian Pelasgian and Hettit-Luwan-Anatolian,
now about Venedi people I am not sure, and not familiar, but I know that they moved to areas of today Hungary Before Huns invasions, from areas of today slovenia, but they mainly passed balkans in ancient times from minor asia,
i don't want to say anything more cause i m not familiar to their story and language,

sorry i haven't understand your question,
dna is not accepted by a society, language religion, customs are accepted,
the more years and the more common memory, the more is accepted,
as an example the grinco in spainish, means foreigner, but comes from Greek colonization times, when the Iberians met the Greeks and the word Grinco is simmilar to stranger, (grico are the Greeks in Magna Grecia)

iapetoc
22-03-11, 19:04
I can reply only to Q1 : All Slavic languages in the Middle Ages were very close and mutually understandable. The standard was established from the old Bulgarian - linguists call this language the Slavonic.
The Slavonic was used for translation of the holy books and permitted orthodox christianism has spread through the Slavic speaking countries starting from X c.

Regarding the Thracian words entering the Bulgarian - from the few words known to be Thracian - I can't see ANY relation at all with the Bulgarian.
We must be very careful about any research trying to prove the contrary because since the communist era some enthusiastic Bulgarian authors are trying to prove relation with the mighty Thracians to embellish the national identity of Bulgarians.

Of course many Latin and Greek words entered the Bulgarian language probably since the VII c and later. Did they trough assimilation of local inhabitants or from the vicinity of the East Roman Empire? It's very hard to tell.


yes but old church slavonic is based upon slavic Koine of Cyrill,
to understand what I say, slavic people had Bible from 800 Bc in a simmilar to their own language although artificial by 2 monks, when Germans had in 1500 AD by M. Luther, when nations have written words they assimilate and they learn them if they sound familiar to them, so older elements are going to be lost,
as an example word Bog is same to all slavic,
we don't know if serbians had exact the word Bog, and polland also, and ucraine also,
before cyrill, cause they might use words like Vog, Bogu, Boka etc,
but after cyrill all use Bog,

Now about ancient Thracian, I know the difference of Daci-Moesians with Bulgarians and Greeks, in ancient thracian relicks like rings we found Greek alphabet, but not greek words, like the ring, the ring has another translation in dacian-thracian, another in Greek (polisteneas = Πολις τε Νεας means towns and harbour or ships)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/dc/Ezerovo_ring.jpg

as also the word Βουνο or Σβουνιο (sVunio)which according greeks is the thracian word for mountain etc, the ending toponyms of -essa greek or -ova daco-romanian -ica bulg cant help to find thracian origin language,
But thracians were from peloponese and minor asia (Phrygians) to Hungary and even far of ucraine (taurica) even north of Persia (massagaete), Not only in balkans. Even in 20th century the isolated thracians of Greece call Fyrom Trivoli (acient Tribaldi) and the Varna Bulgarians drisianous (Odrysse),
so any claim that a nation is pure Thracian for me is unaccepted, cause thracian language and culture was wide spread all over balkans and east europe, but the strongest Thracian area is among Fyrom Serbia Greece Bulgaria and south Romania. cause the turkish area have changed to turkish and kept only its dances and music from ancient thracian

the area that Epigoni named and ruled Thracia is not the area of ancient Thracian expansion, and surely we don't know if that area, is the last speaking Thracian, or the proto Thracian states,
simply when herodotus says about Thracians the biggest nation after Indians (greater than persians) surely does not mean the duridanov's thracia, or simply Dacia, but should be a wider area and poppulus enough, probably east of dinaric alpes and from Greece to north of carpathia, areas mainly inhabited by I YDNA and low R1a,
The daci-moesi approach to ancient Thracian is not wrong, simply it quides us more to illyricum words than minor asian myssian, it is difficult a more focusing approach and neads life time works and comparisons of word roots,
But as a fact we know that Daci-thracian are mainly affected by latin, while south-Thracian by pellasgic-anatolian and makes problem more difficult

Besides in another post of mime I spoke about Mycenae and Myenae
4 Mycenae (Mycenae, Myssenae, Mossienae, Makenae) peloponese, myssia moeasia makedonia
and another in west should exist but I dont know where, so create the sign of Deplic 3ε of 5 mycenae and 9 nine Minyans (5 lands 9 waters)

how yes no 2
22-03-11, 22:38
Russian primary chronicle claims Slavs originally lived in Noricum and along Danube in Bulgaria and Hungaria of time of writing (1113) ....

note that according to euroatlas in 1100 AD Bulgaria is part of Byzantine empire....and in 1000AD Hungaria and Bulgaria are looking like this...

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1000/1000.jpg

thus, Thrace proper is not originally in Bulgaria while in 1000AD vast areas of today Serbia are both in Bulgaria and Hungary...

when someone in year 1113 speaks of lands along Danube where Bulgaria and Hungary are, he speaks not of Thrace but upper Moesia (today north Bulgaria and north Serbia) and Vojvodina (province of Serbia bordering Hungary)... those are areas of Triballi, Scordisci and Pannonians... According to Strabo Pannonians also live in Illyricum, that is in Dalmatia mixed with Venetic people that inhabited Adriatic coasts......

Jordanes says early Slavs are of Veneti race....


so proto-Slavs were probably not Thracians... but Triballi, Scordisci, Pannonains and Veneti

following map with genetic clines based on blood polymorphism shows clearly that Venetic people and people around Danube from Panonia to Ukraine are related... note that historic Slavs never settled in north Italy....relation of north Italy, Danube areas and Ukraine is probably reflection of people from whom genetically (not necessarily linguistically) proto-Slavs origin from, while Thracians are not in same layer....but I think that there was linguistic continuity as well for big part of these people...

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_Ish7688voT0/SrzveEX3EmI/AAAAAAAACAU/x-z3DCoFeu0/s400/pc1.jpg
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2009/10/migrationism-strikes-back.html

again this is in corellation with Thraco-Cimmerians (who are found in Ukraine, around Danube and in north Italy....note also that according to map bellow there are no archeological findings of Thraco-Cimmerians in Thrace proper but only in Triballi area of uper Moesia)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thraco-Cimmerians

note that Thraco-Cimmerians were much deeper in central Europe with strong center further up the Danube in what looks as Bohemia-Bavaria... while clines in people of today do not include that area in same layer with north Italy-Danubian-Ukraine people

back to tribal name Boii... according to Byzantine emperor, Serbs came to Balkan from land Boika, where they have also originally dwellt.... Boika neighbours Frankia, and white Croatia...
that is Bohemia - Bavaria where town Sorviodurum (Straubing of today - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straubing) was and where place names Srby can be found
( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Doma%C5%BElice_District)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srby_(Plze%C5%88-South_District) )
...
we know that Russian primary chronicle says Slavic people lived around Danube but were pushed north due to Roman spread...chronicle includes Serbs and Croats in those Danubian Slavs...

...note that original location of Boii in Bohemia/Bavaria (both named after them) is north of Scordisci who are in Vojvodina, Slavonia and north Serbia... with area of influence of Scordisci (*see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scordisci ) going on south all the way to Šar mountains (named after them, and marking border between Macedonia and Albania - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains), and on north all the way to Slovakia and Moravia thus to Boii.... tribe that entered Thrace from area of Scordisci is later known as Serdi, which is I think just Thrachanized version of Scordisci....

now Boii are north of Scordisci/Serdi
Vojvodina is north of Serbia proper...

coincidence?

btw. Cimbri are thought to origin from Cimmerians and their king has name Boiorix (which probably means "King of the Boii" )...Cimbri are often paired with Helvetii..

sir_morphy
23-03-11, 00:33
[QUOTE=iapetoc;368644]it is imposible a 5 10 15% to change language of rest, except if the people already are familiar to a big % of that language.
[QUOTE]

what about latin america? what about turkey? what about hungary?

iapetoc
23-03-11, 08:12
[QUOTE=iapetoc;368644]it is imposible a 5 10 15% to change language of rest, except if the people already are familiar to a big % of that language.
[QUOTE]

what about latin america? what about turkey? what about hungary?I can't answer about Hungary,

But in Latina maerica even today natives are spoken,
remember in Latin America invaders had Xtra power, and written language, Alphabet, (powder vs wood)
remember ow many years that extra power (powder) and preach and extra push to change and still people speak native, 500 years,

you can not compare 600 with 1600
at 600 if local people did have written language, that is why Balto-slavic of cyrill was accepted altough it should have some differences,
as example, if local people of Serbia wanted to prevail slavic invasion with small help from Con/polis it would be done, how many centuries of roman occupation in balkans?
at least 700 years as Rome, and at least 1200 as Rome and East Rome, (in Byzantium Roman was primary and accepted language) and Greeks and many others never accepted roman language, only Armani who were original Latino-celtic settlers speak even today dialects of Roman.

Turks occupy minor Asia 800 years and yet at 1923 40% of people still spoke Greek, which later with exchange of people is almost lost, (from battle of manzikurt 1187 to 1922)
turkey if an exchange of population was never done, still 40% would Speak Greek,
Remember the Genocide of Pontic greeks, at 1923, and Armenian genocide,
but did such genocides happened in balkans at slavic invasions? and if did the today 10% is it enough? to genocide 90% and if a genocide was done probably invaders would be less than 5%, so local people if they wanted they will join Byzantine forces, but probably they did not want, and the war had different % so the hostilities and the brutalities was mainly among Roman friends and Roman enemies at least at 1-2/3 of population
Besides turks as seljuk were only 80 000 people, as ottomans almost 150 000, if Byzantines did not change religion, language was forced to change, but accepting islam religion they change language also,
but even from 1100 to 1923 40% of minor asia was speaking Greek,
although words are imported, Balkans kept their languages as were before turkish occupation,
and try to expell the turkish linguistic loans, or forced imported words.

IN BULGARIA ARE NOT MENTIONED MASSIVE SLAVIC INVASIONS, BUT YET IS CONSIDERED SLAVIC NATION,
WHO CHANGE LANGUAGE IF NO INVASION WAS DONE, AND WHY BALKARS DID TURN LANGUAGE TO HUNIC?
(balkars are considered hunic, exept if they were already slavic speakers, funny)

how is it possible outside of Con/polis a fully Greco-roman speaking Capital a small 5-10% change language?
or con/polis was native Americans with wooden weapons??? (funny)
no simply south slavic language was familiar and known, and at christianity times enter Baltic branch of language from Cyrillic translation.

in Israel were alphabet exist, no Greeks, no Roman, no persians, no Arabs, no Egyptians, no Babbylonians manage to dissapear the language, for more than 2500 years of occupation.

iapetoc
23-03-11, 09:14
so proto-Slavs were probably not Thracians... but Triballi, Scordisci, Pannonains and Veneti

Byzantines name Makedonia the area of Stara zagora also, is it Makedonia?
Romans named Illyricum areas of Romania, is it Illyria?

according written sources tribaldi and pannoni were thracians,

to understand, it is mistaken to connect Thracian with the area that Epigoni named Thracia, Skopje was Thracia at Alexanders time, is it today?
Nis was Thracia at That time, is it today,
Thracia is not the area that Duridanov clames, or Epigoni named,
the know Thracian by Herodotus and Strabo are these,
The unknown thracian is from Peloponese and Phrygia to Slovakia and Ucraine,

in Gennesis Iayan people (Yunan) dwell among Thracians, not south,
so probably Thracian language and Thracian was also in minor asia,
Thissagaete lived on Steppes
Don't connect Thracians with Bulgaria, it is mistaken,
Bulgaria is only the Odrysse Thracians, and perhaps some Paeonians, and only them,
it is not the center or the area of proto thracian,
In fact sesklo/dimini proves the existance of Thracians in Greece before pelasgic invasions,
Triballi Pannoni are another south Thracian tribes,
Daci Gaete are the north Thracians,
Celts probably lived west of Dinaric alpes, and north of carnians (marimbor areas)
How you explain the Ossariates = lakes,
and Greek Mt Ossa = water falls, and Ossetia,
maybe you even claim that baltoslavic went to thessaly before mycenae and gave name to mountain? hmm
no simply Thracian tribes ocuppy areas from greece bulgaria fyrom serbia, bosna, romania, moldova, ucraine, hungary until chech and slovak, and bithynia, myssian, phrygian moschi (moeschi) cimmerians in minor asia.
plz do not connect Thracians with Bulgaria, it is mistaken,
Thracian is the european branch of hettits, and not the Bulgarian,
Thracian expansion fits very well with I2
Now about Veneti, I don't know, I have no reason to argue,

simply Bulgaria and Dacia kept thracian more than others, but that doesn't mean that they are the original, or the only one,

and to return to the point of the thread,
I still believe that R1a is slavic ydna, but I still believe that slavic language of balto-slavic is the south slavic language,

how yes no 2
23-03-11, 23:24
Iapetoc, it is hard to say about Thracians...
it makes sense, but I would like to see more indications, as linguistic links do not hold...

zanipolo
24-03-11, 01:37
I find it very illogical that people quote jordanes when stating about the adriatic veneti people.
Jordanes lived around 600AD of gothic parentage , born in illyircum. Is it not better to get accurate facts from Polybius who was born around 150BC and saw with his own eyes the latinization of the Venetic people ( adriatic veneti) . Polybius said that they where celtic and illyric.

If people say that Polybius is much too ancient, then why not use the current Historian John Wilkes who is renowned for his knowledge of the illyrian, venetic and epirote peoples ( and others)

It seems very very strange, especially since I read Italian and venetian archives on the issue

sir_morphy
24-03-11, 02:17
Turks occupy minor Asia 800 years and yet at 1923 40% of people still spoke Greek, which later with exchange of people is almost lost, (from battle of manzikurt 1187 to 1922)
turkey if an exchange of population was never done, still 40% would Speak Greek,
Remember the Genocide of Pontic greeks, at 1923, and Armenian genocide,
but did such genocides happened in balkans at slavic invasions? and if did the today 10% is it enough? to genocide 90% and if a genocide was done probably invaders would be less than 5%, so local people if they wanted they will join Byzantine forces, but probably they did not want, and the war had different % so the hostilities and the brutalities was mainly among Roman friends and Roman enemies at least at 1-2/3 of population
Besides turks as seljuk were only 80 000 people, as ottomans almost 150 000, if Byzantines did not change religion, language was forced to change, but accepting islam religion they change language also,
but even from 1100 to 1923 40% of minor asia was speaking Greek,
although words are imported, Balkans kept their languages as were before turkish occupation,
and try to expell the turkish linguistic loans, or forced imported words.


so...it's posible. You answered: by religion. Or by sword. In most cases by both.

iapetoc
24-03-11, 02:59
no in fact the opposite,


so...it's posible. You answered: by religion. Or by sword. In most cases by both.


Alphabet is stronger than sword,
and in case of slavic how many years past until Cyrill from invasion 1 century? 2 century?
yet the Alphabet and the written bible in a familiar language was stronger than any war


Iapetoc, it is hard to say about Thracians...
it makes sense, but I would like to see more indications, as linguistic links do not hold...

I 'm repeating my shelf,
I am conviced that Slavic Ydna is R1a,
I am not conviced that slavic language enter from Baltic to balkans, and was not language of R1a,

I believe that I Ydna existed before J and E in balkans and spoke Thracian east of Dinaric Alps,
and the more northern Dialects in coexistance with others create Valto-slavic

how yes no 2
04-05-11, 01:32
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=371381&viewfull=1#post371381

Eldritch
19-04-12, 16:29
They were pred. R1a and I2a2 people.

Goga
19-04-12, 22:17
I think that proto-Slavic folks were actually an admixture of Northeast European haplogroup hg. N1c1 and Central European hg. R1a and hg. I2 folks.

LeBrok
19-04-12, 23:35
If it turns that Ra1 and I2a Dinaric were both slavic from West Ukraine and Belarus area, but they lived in separate tribes with strong I2a or Ra1 influence, it will mean that there was a strongest political/national entity that gave both groups same language and culture. And it had to be a very long influence of about 1,000 years. Sarmatia might be a good candidate for this purpose, so how knows, maybe slavic was the language of Sarmatians?

how yes no 3
02-06-12, 00:41
Sarmatians are considered to have been iranic people....
as north iranic languages were likely very close to proto-Slavic in times when Sarmatians enter Europe, they did easily blend with proto-Slavic people....

note that Greek mythology derives Sarmatians from Scythians, and those were likely among proto-Slavic people...

regarding proto-Slavs, see also linguistic arguments that connect proto-Slavs with Scythians, Veneti, Thracians, Pannonians and Pelasgians...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27558-origin-of-tribal-names

Vedun
05-06-14, 10:32
"I can reply only to Q1 : All Slavic languages in the Middle Ages were very close and mutually understandable. The standard was established from the old Bulgarian - linguists call this language the Slavonic. "

This is a typical nonsense, invented by the "Holy Church" called Church Slavic language. Church (Slavic) was not the 1. Slavic language (it never existed in fact as a language). It was an artificial "approximation". And Christianity was not the 1. culture (indeed, religion is a cultural element) of Slavs.

"as an example word Bog is same to all slavic,"

The word "Bog" or "Bhaga" - also in several other languages (like Luwian, Sanskrit,...) means "to follow...(laws)". Old Slavs were extremelly loyal to their tradition of Godi (another version of Slavic pre-Christian Bog; God) which followed as days of Gods on the pre Christian Slavic Calendar. 1 cycle per year was called God which also meant "Year" (the term Year or Yar (Jar) means "Young"; "cyclic" (Garden; Yard-en; Gard, Grad) or Leto. Every God has been violently replaced with "saints". 3rd form of Bog was Deva, which was also part of the Calendar. Term 9 or Devetor Deviat includes something which is "godly" and has its own circle...(in calendar). 1 Slavic week called Nedela ("not part of it; "no separation; no "teil", no "work"(people did not work in last day in the week ) or Teden/Tiaden ("dev-den" - "9th day") - "week". 1 Month(Mesiats; "moon") have had 9x3 Teden(s) which followed the Vedic tradition of Nakshatras (Synodic lunar months) of Gods, who were represented as "starry constellations" in: JAV(this is poJAV; "to appear"; visible, born...), PRAV(righteous, fair; realm of gods) and NAV (प्रणव { ॐ }; "pra Nava"(pre Nav); "Om" ; the Astral, primordial, Shadowy world (realm of ghosts, Hell; Underworld). Jav, Prav and Nav were separated between 9th world of Gods around the "mount (and crystal castle) of the World (Mount Meru) and Lower world, which have had 7 lower words (the worlds were unfortunatelly forgotten -read: destroyed by the "holy Church") which were equal to the world of snakes (Patala (Podol in Slovene) or Nagaloka in Sanskrit. In Slovenia survived cult of "golden haired" god Kresnik (avatar of Perun) who was born after nine (Nava) years and lives in the 9th world and is flying on the golden chair. His brother is Trot(also the term for a male-bee; and "lazy man" ) and his 4 eyed dog is his companion. His enemy is "Queen of Snakes" or Vedomec (derives from the term "Veda" (knowledge) or Viešč (Vešč; "skilled"; from this term derives "Witch-er", mage). His another enemy was Veles or Velko, Vouvel, Volvelu, Balon, Babilon(this is "Babylon"; Вави-ло́н (russian, ukrainian readers will understand the point about the " ло́на - Luna (womb) - Вави (ВОВНА)
,something which is "rounded(ball)from outside" and "empty" inside like a womb"; Moon... This is the "origin" of the Phoenician (transmuted "Venitian"; "Venetic") Lunar and SatUrn-ian cult of BA'AL or Va'al (the 'letter' V in"YHWH" or YHVVH"(that's why it became an "unknown & "forbidden" name of a "god" (because there is no "mono god" behind this name, but a pantheon...http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/mysterious-jerusalem-carvings-leaves-israeli-archaeologists-baffled-1.400113) was "representing" the Slavic-Phoenician (Venetic) god Veles or Vol (Taurus) Bull..., before the cult was demonized and perverted into something like this:
http://image.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/348289/348289,1304102510,6/stock-vector-baal-vintage-engraving-old-engraved-illustration-of-baal-the-phoenician-god-carrying-a-child-76243105.jpg

note that we "inharited" the Babylonian "7-days week" after Babylonians via the Byzantium (Christian cult)) and "Christian "history" (old Slavic history was totally rewritten and completelly deleted). So, gods control the world from the 9th land (this is Ygdrasil), from the world of Osi (Axis-es(Axes) in the Grad Osi / Gard Osi ("As Gard")... "gods".

Sile
05-06-14, 12:16
The problem with slavs is that they don't even know their own ancient history.

one slav here says Serbians are the true slavs and migrated north and then east

another states , ukraines are the only slavs

while the slavs I know ( 2) both agree that west-slavic are the purest slavs, thenfollow east-slavic and last is south-slavic people ...............what is the truth here?

Dalmat
05-06-14, 18:46
The problem with slavs is that they don't even know their own ancient history.

one slav here says Serbians are the true slavs and migrated north and then east

another states , ukraines are the only slavs

while the slavs I know ( 2) both agree that west-slavic are the purest slavs, thenfollow east-slavic and last is south-slavic people ...............what is the truth here?

thats the good question :D

vandalorum
21-06-14, 13:17
The problem with slavs is that they don't even know their own ancient history.

one slav here says Serbians are the true slavs and migrated north and then east

another states , ukraines are the only slavs

while the slavs I know ( 2) both agree that west-slavic are the purest slavs, thenfollow east-slavic and last is south-slavic people ...............what is the truth here?

In my researches. Poles are slavicised Balts, Sarmatians, Normans, Celto-Germans ad next Slavs. Slavs are I2a1b people. They moved to "Poland" in V century from "Ukraine" turn in VII go south. Byzantine Empire made slavic version of Bible and as a winner "given us" language, religion etc. to Poland, where for 200 years settled Slavs (Serbs and Croats: White). Later we (Balts and Sarmatian in majority) were at influence of Roman Emipre, so we erased glagolica and take Latinica.
If in Ireland Celtic people speak now german english language are they Germans or English? If in Mozambique speaks portuguese language - are they really Portuguese people?
And look - in Ukraine I2a1b is still about 20%, ex-Yugoslavia near 40- 50%
The differences between Balts, Sarmatians and Scythians is subclade under R1a1. Normans is I1, Celto-Germans R1b u-106 ...

gyms
21-06-14, 14:42
vandlorm:"Slavs are I2a1b people."

Surefire:

More ancient Scandinavians (Skoglund, Malmström et al. 2014)

http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/04/...-skoglund.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.se/2014/04/more-ancient-scandinavians-skoglund.html)

Mesolithic Swedish hunter gatherers
StoraFörvar11 aka SfF11(Male), 7,500-7,250 cal. B.P, Stora Karlso Sweden : mtDNA=U5a1

6,873 ± 119 BC, Stora Karlso Sweden : mtDNA=U4b1

Motala1(Female), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: mtDNA=U5a1

Motala2(Male), 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I PF3742+, I L41+, I1 S108-, I1 L845-, I1 M253-, I2a1b CT1293-, I2a2 L37-), mtDNA=U2e1

Motala3(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1b*(I M258+, I PF3742+, I2 L68+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U5a1

Motala4(Female) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: mtDNA=U5a2d

Motala6(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=? (Q1 L232- Q1a2a L55+), mtDNA=U5a2d

Motala9(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=I* (I P38+, I1 P40-), mtDNA=U5a2

Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pitted_Ware_culture

Neolithic Swedish hunter gatherers of the Pitted Ware culture

Ajv52A(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=V

Ajv59(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U

Ajv53(Female), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ajv58(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: Y DNA=I2a1-P37.2, mtDNA=U4d

Ajv70(Male), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ire8(Male), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4d

Ajv13(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ajv52b(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ajv66(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ajv54(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5

Ajv36(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5

Ajv5(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5a

Ajv29a(?), 4,900-4,600 cal B.P, Ajvide, Eksta, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U5a

Fir15(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U4

Fir22(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U4

Fir4(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U5

Fir27(?), 2800-2000 BC,Fridtorp, Västerhejde, Gotland: mtDNA=U5a

Ire6b(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=T2b

Ire9(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4

Ire3(?), 5,100-4,150 cal. B.P, Ire, Hangvar, Gotland Sweden: mtDNA=U4



Neolithic Swedish Farmers of the TRB culture, Frälsegården, Gokhem Sweden


Gökhem4(Male), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H

Gökhem2(Female), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H1c

Gökhem7(Female), 5,050-4,750 cal. years B.P.: mtDNA=H24

Gökhem5(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=K1e

Ste7(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=T2b

Ste7(Female), 5,280-4,890 cal. B.P.: mtDNA=J

gyms
21-06-14, 14:46
Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1

Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

gyms
21-06-14, 16:31
I2a is NOT Dinaric!!!

LeBrok
21-06-14, 16:40
In my researches. Poles are slavicised Balts, Sarmatians, Normans, Celto-Germans ad next Slavs. Slavs are I2a1b people. They moved to "Poland" in V century from "Ukraine" turn in VII go south. Byzantine Empire made slavic version of Bible and as a winner "given us" language, religion etc. to Poland, where for 200 years settled Slavs (Serbs and Croats: White). Later we (Balts and Sarmatian in majority) were at influence of Roman Emipre, so we erased glagolica and take Latinica.
If in Ireland Celtic people speak now german english language are they Germans or English? If in Mozambique speaks portuguese language - are they really Portuguese people?
And look - in Ukraine I2a1b is still about 20%, ex-Yugoslavia near 40- 50%
The differences between Balts, Sarmatians and Scythians is subclade under R1a1. Normans is I1, Celto-Germans R1b u-106 ...
The weakest point of your hypothesis is low frequency of I2 in Poland. All I2 is at 6% level in Poland. From archeology we know that just before Slavic expansion central Europe was depopulated. It was a time of extremely cold weather, Justinian plague, many wars and invasions from the Steppe, and Germanic tribes leaving this area and going West. In this case Slavs who came to Poland were substantial majority over local populations. In this case we should see I2 at much higher level, same as in Balkans, but we don't. This is telling us that Slavs who came to Poland were didn't have high I2 to start with, but high R1a. If proto Slavic language came from I2 Dinaric group, it had spread to R1a population before they came to Poland.
Otherwise I do agree that current Polish folks contain elements from ancient Balts, Vikings, Celtic, Russian, Jewish, Tatar and a lot of Germanic.

PS Did you mean I2 Dinaric instead of I2a1b?

gyms
21-06-14, 17:23
LeBrok:The weakest point of your hypothesis is low frequency of I2 in Poland."

Maybe,but you should understand-finally-that

modern distribution of haplogroups has nothing to do with hg. origins.Think about the Skandinavian example!

LeBrok
21-06-14, 17:34
LeBrok:The weakest point of your hypothesis is low frequency of I2 in Poland."

Maybe,but you should understand-finally-that

modern distribution of haplogroups has nothing to do with hg. origins.Think about the Skandinavian example!
Are you saying that every haplogroup in today's Poland came from far away? That there is no continuity of haplogroups in poland from 5th century AD till now?

gyms
21-06-14, 17:59
Are you saying that every haplogroup in today's Poland came from far away? That there is no continuity of haplogroups in poland from 5th century AD till now?

I am not talking about 5th cent.haplogroups!

Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1

kamani
21-06-14, 18:38
I don't know the solution to the puzzle but here is a few hints maybe:

-Slavs appeared in history right after the Huns disappeared (maybe a couple of hundred years difference), roughly on the same lands from which the Huns disappeared.
-The first Slavic kingdoms were Khaganates, a form of tribal kingdom common in Central Asia (turkic, mongolian etc).
-There is less than 5% turkic/mongolian y-dna in Southern Slavs, and that cannot be because of the Turks because even Turks themselves have less than 5%.
-Southern Slavs have about 15-20% Eastern European admixture on 23AndMe (compared to Kosovars who have 0%) and 35-50% I2a1b Dinaric y-dna, which means originally either I2a1b-Dinaric was not Slavic or East-European R1a was not slavic.
-Southern Slavs are closer genetically to Greeks, Albanians, Romanians, and Italians, than to Russians or Poles.
-Christianity and written Slavic were given to Slavs much after their first settlement, by the Byzantine Empire.

vandalorum
21-06-14, 20:15
First off all, I have to learn english. I can't clearly explain. I should change territory of early Slavs - not only "Ukraine" but also Poland. of course with I2a1b (alone or with r1a1 people). And I2a1 people grows here, do not moved. With Huns invasion came R1a1 people with many subclades which make them Balts, some Sarmatians or Scythians. This resulted that Slavs started moved to south. Later more R1a1 people came to east Europe with Mongol invasion. In Poland we still have slavic language because of Bible (made by Cyryl & Methodius). If we can teach Africans to speak french or portuguese so it was possible to teach R1a1 people speak some kind of slavic language. I red a book from 1851 written by Karol Szajnocha "Lechicki początek Polski" Lechites began of Poland. Author explained that polish language (or more accurate slavic - serbian or croatian) grows from old norman language. Polish places like Złotów or Złotniki have nothing to do with Złoto - gold but much more with norman word slott - castle. He put quite a lot of examples. Now Swedes or Norwegians changed their language because of Celts etc.


and some add:




I used to be fascinated by the Slavs a year ago. I read and tried to understand Serbian and Croatian language. They have in their consciousness the migration from northern lands.

Vedun
21-06-14, 20:16
In my researches. Poles are slavicised Balts, Sarmatians, Normans, Celto-Germans ad next Slavs. Slavs are I2a1b people. They moved to "Poland" in V century from "Ukraine" turn in VII go south. Byzantine Empire made slavic version of Bible and as a winner "given us" language, religion etc. to Poland, where for 200 years settled Slavs (Serbs and Croats: White). Later we (Balts and Sarmatian in majority) were at influence of Roman Emipre, so we erased glagolica and take Latinica.
If in Ireland Celtic people speak now german english language are they Germans or English? If in Mozambique speaks portuguese language - are they really Portuguese people?
And look - in Ukraine I2a1b is still about 20%, ex-Yugoslavia near 40- 50%
The differences between Balts, Sarmatians and Scythians is subclade under R1a1. Normans is I1, Celto-Germans R1b u-106 ...

Nobody gave us "language", lol... Do you think that your ancestors remained Polish language because of some "Church"? No, they fought for this language and for your land! The claim that some religious (occult) group from Byzantium gave us language is idiotic. Do you think that Slavs did not have their own faith before Christianity? Christian cult is a fusion of Egyptian Osirianism & Sethism and other "pagan" faiths...(look at the "Horns of moses" & Flavius quoting Manetho about real name of "Moses", being an "Osiris's priest"). The Christian "festivals" did not come from any "Greeks" to us, but were perverted to the maximum degree and assimilated into the new cult called Christianity. This is why the "Dark middle ages" were called "Dark", because it was a time to purge Europe from the old world... It seems you are still living in some imaginary world. Old Slavs have had rich culture, language, every word is like a treasure to me. It contains a message, which is(was) part of mythology, poems. And understand the flow of your thoughts completelly. Everything you read from religious ABrahamic (Against Brahmanic; old Slavic and also Lithuanian, Latvian was part of it) sources about "non abrahamic faiths" is "satanic, primitive and does not exist"... Why do you think were Slavs in a war with Rome (ex Etruscan Ruma) and Byzantium (Božiant) if not because of this parasitical society called Christianity?
Sarmatia was only a Latin transliteration... , like was Galicia in current Ukraine or Halycia; which was never a "Celtic" territory; instead the names Galicia, Celt or Ghaul derives from "Glagoliti"; "Galeb, seaGull; Galus,...It was a territorial name.

vandalorum
21-06-14, 20:54
Nobody gave us "language", lol... Do you think that your ancestors remained Polish language because of some "Church"? No, they fought for this language and for your land! The claim that some religious (occult) group from Byzantium gave us language is idiotic. Do you think that Slavs did not have their own faith before Christianity? Christian cult is a fusion of Egyptian Osirianism & Sethism and other "pagan" faiths...(look at the "Horns of moses" & Flavius quoting Manetho about real name of "Moses", being an "Osiris's priest"). The Christian "festivals" did not come from any "Greeks" to us, but were perverted to the maximum degree and assimilated into the new cult called Christianity. This is why the "Dark middle ages" were called "Dark", because it was a time to purge Europe from the old world... It seems you are still living in some imaginary world. Old Slavs have had rich culture, language, every word is like a treasure to me. It contains a message, which is(was) part of mythology, poems. And understand the flow of your thoughts completelly. Everything you read from religious ABrahamic (Against Brahmanic; old Slavic and also Lithuanian, Latvian was part of it) sources about "non abrahamic faiths" is "satanic, primitive and does not exist"... Why do you think were Slavs in a war with Rome (ex Etruscan Ruma) and Byzantium (Božiant) if not because of this parasitical society called Christianity?
Sarmatia was only a Latin transliteration... , like was Galicia in current Ukraine or Halycia; which was never a "Celtic" territory; instead the names Galicia, Celt or Ghaul derives from "Glagoliti"; "Galeb, seaGull; Galus,...It was a territorial name.

So look how looks Russians, how Poles, how ex-Yugoslavia people and how Bulgarians. Russians look... "russians", Poles on majority looking West Baltid, Bulgaria Pontid (in Poland about 15-20% looks North Pontid) Yugoslavia people in majority looks Dinarid. We are different people who are speaking something similar like nowadays esperanto. We Poles have word dużo = much, other Slavs have word "mnogo" but Latvians have "daudz", Lithuenians have "daug".

motzart
21-06-14, 21:42
I2a is pre-slavic in the Southern Europe. Slavs were an almost exclusively R1a group.

Abstract
Y chromosome variation in 457 Croatian samples was studied using 16 SNPs/indel and eight STR loci. High frequency of haplogroup I in Croatian populations and the phylogeographic pattern in its background STR diversity over Europe make Adriatic coast one likely source of the recolonization of Europe following the Last Glacial Maximum. The higher frequency of I in the southern island populations is contrasted with higher frequency of group R1a chromosomes in the northern island of Krk and in the mainland. R1a frequency, while low in Greeks and Albanians, is highest in Polish, Ukrainian and Russian populations and could be a sign of the Slavic impact in the Balkan region. Haplogroups J, G and E that can be related to the spread of farming characterize the minor part (12.5%) of the Croatian paternal lineages. In one of the southern island (Hvar) populations, we found a relatively high frequency (14%) of lineages belonging to P*(xM173) cluster, which is unusual for European populations. Interestingly, the same population also harbored mitochondrial haplogroup F that is virtually absent in European populations – indicating a connection with Central Asian populations, possibly the Avars.




http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v11/n7/full/5200992a.html

Vedun
21-06-14, 22:46
"We Poles have word dużo = much, other Slavs have word "mnogo" but Latvians have "daudz", Lithuenians have "daug"."

And we have dosti (dost in dialects) or mnogo, "duže" (dolgo); "long". Mnogo means Ma-Noge ("has legs") in your language. This is the 'difference' between us(you can name things as you wish - to describe it; and the word will sound totally different in some other Slavic or non Slavic language (it will transmute, mutate; my point here is that slavic languages are generally ignored in linguistics, already because of stereotypes which started long, long ago, by your "beloved Church")... Slavic tribes were separated into 3 major groups:
1) Veni ("Veneti")
2) Antes (Ukrainians, old Russians)
3) Sklavines (a mixture between Scythian (V)Antes and Vens; hence; Skla-Veni or Skolotoi (Sokoli, Skoti)+Venci...
And you do not 'look' any different from any Ukrainians and Russians.

You can notice this fact that your men carry Y patrimonial haplogroups: R1a: 57%, R1b: 13%, other haplogroups are in minority. N (Tatar / Turkish & Suomi) haplogroup is bellow 4%; Latvians have 38-42% of N haplogroups, 38-40% of the R1a haplogroup... Russians have bellow(!) 23% of the N haplogroup (which does not make them "finnic", they have Suomi ancestry only over their "mothers" ). They also have above 55% of the R1a haplogroup... Note, that the origin of this partimonial line came from Russia itself and nowhere else on this planet.

Do you think we "inherited" all these vast territories from some "Church"? Church with their beloved "chosen" Teutones would rather destroy us, with Greeks and Italians. Not to mention Ottomans who were treatened in our lands. Polish and Russian people destroyed their dreams to capture whole Europe, before they've ever reached Gothic territories!

vandalorum
21-06-14, 22:46
So, are Pashtuns or Tajiks (r1a1) Slavs? Or maybe Latvian are Slavs? But why they speak non slavic languages?

vandalorum
21-06-14, 22:48
"We Poles have word dużo = much, other Slavs have word "mnogo" but Latvians have "daudz", Lithuenians have "daug"."

And we have dosti (dost in dialects) or mnogo, "duže" (dolgo); "long". Mnogo means Ma-Noge ("has legs") in your language. This is the 'difference' between us... Slavic tribes were separated into 3 major groups:
1) Veni ("Veneti")
2) Antes (Ukrainians, old Russians)
3) Sklavines (a mixture between Scythian (V)Antes and Vens; hence; Skla-Veni or Skolotoi (Sokoli, Skoti)+Venci...
And you do not 'look' any different from any Ukrainians and Russians.

You can notice this fact that your men carry Y patrimonial haplogroups: R1a: 57%, R1b: 13%, other haplogroups are in minority. N (Tatar / Turkish & Suomi) haplogroup is bellow 4%; Latvians have 38-42% of N haplogroups, 38-40% of the R1a haplogroup... Russians have bellow(!) 23% of the N haplogroup (which does not make them "finnic", they have Suomi ancestry only over their "mothers" ).

Do you think we "inherited" all these vast territories from some "Church"? Church with their beloved "chosen" Teutones would rather destroy us, with Greeks and Italians. Not to mention Ottomans who were treatened in our lands. Polish and Russian people destroyed their dreams to capture whole Europe, before they've ever reached Gothic territories!

Dosti in polish is dość / dosyć not "dużo"

vandalorum
21-06-14, 22:53
And. If we have something about 2 thousand samples. Is this enought to 38 milion (or with emigrants 60) citizenships of Poland? These test costs money - it promotes objectivity?

Salbrox
21-06-14, 23:10
Russians have bellow(!) 23% of the N haplogroup (which does not make them "finnic", they have Suomi ancestry only over their "mothers" ).


I'll interject here to say there's a difference between Finnish (Suomi) and Finno-Ugric ancestry. Russians, specifically northern Russians, have little of the former and lot of the latter (http://s30.postimg.org/akdium5ox/ydna.jpg) - and not just from their mothers. You won't find anything close to those percentages in West or South Slavs or Ukrainians.

Finnish mtDNA pool is quite distinctive due to, for example, certain prevalent U5 clades and does not resemble that of Russian slavs from any region. Whatever Meryans or Bjarmians or other finno-ugric speakers involved in Russian ethnogenesis were, they were not "like us".

LeBrok
22-06-14, 03:06
Dosti in polish is dość / dosyć not "dużo"
Depends on context, it could mean "I have a lot (dostatek), therefore enough (dosc, nie potrzebuje wiecej).


We Poles have word dużo = much, other Slavs have word "mnogo" but Latvians have "daudz" Poles also use "mnogo" as "duzo", old village people and perhaps more in easter Poland. We have also word "mnozyc", multiply, produce, many offspring.

LeBrok
22-06-14, 03:09
"We Poles have word dużo = much, other Slavs have word "mnogo" but Latvians have "daudz", Lithuenians have "daug"."

And we have dosti (dost in dialects) or mnogo, "duže" (dolgo); "long". Mnogo means Ma-Noge ("has legs") in your language. This is the 'difference' between us(you can name things as you wish - to describe it; and the word will sound totally different in some other Slavic or non Slavic language (it will transmute, mutate; my point here is that slavic languages are generally ignored in linguistics, already because of stereotypes which started long, long ago, by your "beloved Church")... Slavic tribes were separated into 3 major groups:
1) Veni ("Veneti")
2) Antes (Ukrainians, old Russians)
3) Sklavines (a mixture between Scythian (V)Antes and Vens; hence; Skla-Veni or Skolotoi (Sokoli, Skoti)+Venci...
And you do not 'look' any different from any Ukrainians and Russians.

You can notice this fact that your men carry Y patrimonial haplogroups: R1a: 57%, R1b: 13%, other haplogroups are in minority. N (Tatar / Turkish & Suomi) haplogroup is bellow 4%; Latvians have 38-42% of N haplogroups, 38-40% of the R1a haplogroup... Russians have bellow(!) 23% of the N haplogroup (which does not make them "finnic", they have Suomi ancestry only over their "mothers" ). They also have above 55% of the R1a haplogroup... Note, that the origin of this partimonial line came from Russia itself and nowhere else on this planet.

Do you think we "inherited" all these vast territories from some "Church"? Church with their beloved "chosen" Teutones would rather destroy us, with Greeks and Italians. Not to mention Ottomans who were treatened in our lands. Polish and Russian people destroyed their dreams to capture whole Europe, before they've ever reached Gothic territories!
As usually you find patterns where they don't exist. To much inconsequential play with words, and everything narrows down to old Pagan Religion, the "True One".

LeBrok
22-06-14, 03:17
First off all, I have to learn english. I can't clearly explain. I should change territory of early Slavs - not only "Ukraine" but also Poland. of course with I2a1b (alone or with r1a1 people). And I2a1 people grows here, do not moved. With Huns invasion came R1a1 people with many subclades which make them Balts, some Sarmatians or Scythians. This resulted that Slavs started moved to south. Later more R1a1 people came to east Europe with Mongol invasion. In Poland we still have slavic language because of Bible (made by Cyryl & Methodius). If we can teach Africans to speak french or portuguese so it was possible to teach R1a1 people speak some kind of slavic language. I red a book from 1851 written by Karol Szajnocha "Lechicki początek Polski" Lechites began of Poland. Author explained that polish language (or more accurate slavic - serbian or croatian) grows from old norman language. Polish places like Złotów or Złotniki have nothing to do with Złoto - gold but much more with norman word slott - castle. He put quite a lot of examples. Now Swedes or Norwegians changed their language because of Celts etc.
What do you propose Slavs spoke before Slavic language was artificially invented? Right, we don't know, so as well they spoke Slavic in first place. It is the simplest explanation therefore most likely the right one. We also know that Poles spoken slavic language before they became christians. It makes hypothesis about christianity teaching Slavic language to Pagans invalid.

Can you tell us how much I2a1b is in Poland?

LeBrok
22-06-14, 04:02
I am not talking about 5th cent.haplogroups!

Motala12(Male) 6,000BC Motala Sweden: Y DNA=pre-I2a1b or brother lineage to I2a1b(I PF3742+, I M258+, I M170+, I2 L68+, I2a L460+, I2a1 P37.2+, I2a1b CTS7218+, I2a1b CTS5985+. I2a1b L178+, I2a1b CTS1293+, I2a1b CTS176+, I2a1b CTS5375-, I2a1b CTS8486-, I2a1b1 M359.2-, I2a1b3 L621-), mtDNA=U2e1
That's weird, I thought I was talking about Slavic expansion into Poland?
I would be nice if next time your comments were related to the subject at hand.

vandalorum
22-06-14, 09:18
Depends on context, it could mean "I have a lot (dostatek), therefore enough (dosc, nie potrzebuje wiecej).

Poles also use "mnogo" as "duzo", old village people and perhaps more in easter Poland. We have also word "mnozyc", multiply, produce, many offspring.

Poles use 'dużo', 'mnożyć' means other thing, something like 'enlarge' but not 'much' / 'many', and if I know only Poles use 'dużo' so it can't be slavic track on balts languages but Latvian/Lithuanian (and extinct Old Prussian) on to polish language
And I can get You many other examples

vandalorum
22-06-14, 09:40
What do you propose Slavs spoke before Slavic language was artificially invented? Right, we don't know, so as well they spoke Slavic in first place. It is the simplest explanation therefore most likely the right one. We also know that Poles spoken slavic language before they became christians. It makes hypothesis about christianity teaching Slavic language to Pagans invalid.

Can you tell us how much I2a1b is in Poland?

Slavs speak something like todays serbian/croatian language. it existed. But Poles (mix of Balts, Dacians - Sarmatians, Celto-Germans and Normans) learn it from slavic version of Bible. And here lived and still live real Slavic people with I2a1b. White Serbia and White Croatia existed in south of Poland, west Ukraine, Bohemia. Czech language in my opinion is closer to serbian or croatian than to polish. Polish languages grows on ruthenian language - east "slavic", Polabian language was west slavic and extincted.
Pay attention that in Łużyce / Lusatia R1a1 prevails but there is also a large number of I2a1b. And Lusatia exist in a waist territory west Ukraine, south Poland/Czech and further west.

I do not know if ever it will be impossible to know the number of I2a1b in Poland. We know one - this haplogroup exist here. We have only 2 thousand examples of random people who paid for it.

Sile
22-06-14, 12:40
Slavs speak something like todays serbian/croatian language. it existed. But Poles (mix of Balts, Dacians - Sarmatians, Celto-Germans and Normans) learn it from slavic version of Bible. And here lived and still live real Slavic people with I2a1b. White Serbia and White Croatia existed in south of Poland, west Ukraine, Bohemia. Czech language in my opinion is closer to serbian or croatian than to polish. Polish languages grows on ruthenian language - east "slavic", Polabian language was west slavic and extincted.
Pay attention that in Łużyce / Lusatia R1a1 prevails but there is also a large number of I2a1b. And Lusatia exist in a waist territory west Ukraine, south Poland/Czech and further west.

I do not know if ever it will be impossible to know the number of I2a1b in Poland. We know one - this haplogroup exist here. We have only 2 thousand examples of random people who paid for it.

so, you believe the serbian story , that slavs all came from serbians ............the serbians filled Poland then Ukraine with slavs.

FrankN
22-06-14, 12:57
Aside from genetics and linguistics, there is another tool to identify "origin", namely the spread of certain technologies. There is hardly a technology that has been studied more extensively by archaeologists than pottery - in fact the most common material used to distinguish pre- and early metal-using cultures.

A key innovation here has been the invention of the pottery wheel. It is first documented for the late 4th millennium BC in Mesopotamia, but may in fact have arrived there from the Indus valley. During the third millennium, the technology spread to the Eastern Mediterranean (Anatolia, Levant, Egypt, Aegean islands), and latest by the first half of the second millennium it arrived on the Eastern Balkans (http://www.aegeobalkanprehistory.net/article.php?id_art=1). During the Iron Age, the pottery wheel is, among others, used by Etrurians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bucchero), the Scythians in the Carpathian basin ((http://regeszet.org.hu/images/angol/a_007.pdf) and most likely also along the Western Black Sea, and presumably also Hallstatt- La Tene Continental Celts. On the British Isles, however it only arrives in the 1st century BC with the immigration of the Belgae. While the use of the pottery wheel is widespread across all of the Roman empire, it only reaches the Germanics via the Alemanni in SW Germany (from the 3rd century AD) and the Franks (from the 5th century AD). The penetration of Germania parallels the Frankish expansion - wheeled pottery arrives in Schleswig, i.e. at what was the Southern Danish border during that period, in the 11th century (http://www.academia.edu/1736261/Ubung_Sachkultur_der_Balten_Slawen_und_Skandinavie r , in German).

So, what about the Slavs? If they were Dinaric, or at least NW Pontic in origin, shouldn't they have used the pottery wheel? In fact, the most commonly used tool to archeologically trace Slavic expansion on the Balkans and north of the Carpathians has been finds of ceramics of the Prague-Korchak type, and related variants such as the Leipzig group (middle Elbe) and the Sukow-Dziedziche group (Western and central Baltic Sea). These ceramics are hand-made, i.e. without using the pottery wheel, and sparsely decorated (see the example of Leipzig pottery below).
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f0/Jena-Lobeda%2C_Johannisberg%2C_Fruehmittelalterliche_Ke ramik_slawischer_Herstellungstradition.jpg/640px-Jena-Lobeda%2C_Johannisberg%2C_Fruehmittelalterliche_Ke ramik_slawischer_Herstellungstradition.jpg

The whole concept of "Slavic" Prague-Korchak type pottery has been criticized from multiple angles, including dating problems, and the inability to assign ceramics to ethno-linguistics (the Anglo-Saxon migration in England, e.g., coincided with a marked decrease in the use of the pottery wheel there, so the appearance of hand-made ceramics must not necessarily relate to Slavs, but may have been effected by Germanics as well). For an extensive critique see http://www.academia.edu/231240/The_Prague_type._A_critical_approach_to_pottery_cl assification. For the moment, it suffices to constate that mainstream, especially Russian, Polish and Czech, but also a lot of German archaeology has traditionally equated Slavs with simple, hand-made pottery.

Now, let's look at another culture assumed to be early Slavic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipote%C5%9Fti-C%C3%A2nde%C5%9Fti_culture

The Penkovka culture (so called in its Ukrainian part) or Ipotesti-Candesti culture (in Romania) is an archaeological culture Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine) spanning Moldova (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moldova) and reaching into Romania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania). Its western boundary is usually taken to at the middle Prut and Dniester rivers, where contact with the Korchak culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korchak_culture) occurs.
The core of the culture seems to be in Left-bank Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Left-bank_Ukraine), especially along the Sula, Seim, Psel, Donets and Oril rivers,[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipote%C5%9Fti-C%C3%A2nde%C5%9Fti_culture#cite_note-2)[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipote%C5%9Fti-C%C3%A2nde%C5%9Fti_culture#cite_note-3) but its territory extends to Right-bank Ukraine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-bank_Ukraine), and Penkovka pottery is also found in eastern and southern Romania, where it co-exists with wheel-made pottery of late Roman derivation; and is referred to as the Ipotesti-Candesti culture by Romanian archaeologists.[4] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipote%C5%9Fti-C%C3%A2nde%C5%9Fti_culture#cite_note-4) Penkovka-type pottery has even been found in Byzantine forts in the north-eastern Balkans.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipote%C5%9Fti-C%C3%A2nde%C5%9Fti_culture#cite_note-5) "Nomadic" style wheel-made pottery (called Pastyrske or Saltovo ware) also occurs in the Ukrainian Penkovka sites as well as in the lower Danube and Bulgaria, but is most commonly found within the Saltovo-Mayaki culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazar_khanate), associated with Bulgars, Khazars and Alans.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipote%C5%9Fti-C%C3%A2nde%C5%9Fti_culture#cite_note-6)[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipote%C5%9Fti-C%C3%A2nde%C5%9Fti_culture#cite_note-7)
Hand-made Penkovka pottery is distinguished from Prague-Korchak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague-Korchak) types on the basis of its biconical profile and tendency for out-turned rims.[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ipote%C5%9Fti-C%C3%A2nde%C5%9Fti_culture#cite_note-8) However, Florin Curta has argued that there can be no simple relationship between type of ceramic vessel and the ethnicity of groups which consumed them. E. Teodor performed a detailed analysis of ceramic vessels in 6th century southeastern Europe, and discovered a complex picture which cannot be reduced to 2 or 3 broad 'archaeological cultures', as each microregion and even individual site shows idisyncrasies in their ceramic profile and degree of connectivity to other regions of 'Slavic Europe'.


Again the concept here is clear: Wheel-made pottery = late Roman, hand-made (south Ukrainian Penkovka)= Slavic. The "Nomadic style" wheel made pottery (obviously, Nomads didn't have anything else to carry, why not take a pottery wheel around...) complicates things a bit, see the map of the Saltovo culture below:
http://s155239215.onlinehome.us/turkic/25Bulgars/P_bulg6R1.gif

Here an extract from a paper about the Slavic expansion into the Carpathian basin (http://mek.oszk.hu/03400/03407/html/47.html):

The Slavs who arrived through the Hargita reached the upper valley of the Küküllő rivers around the middle of the 7th century. The 'Prague type' pottery found in the region must date from the very beginning of settlement. The hand-made pots are more of an Avar type, and the utilization of potter's wheels probably spread from territories controlled by the Avars. This pattern is found on sites in the Kis-Küküllő valley. The settlement near the Lóc creek, at Bözöd-Doborotványa-Nagyszénafű, consists of huts with ovens made of stone slabs; 7th century, early Slavic pots were found in its lower layer, and 7th–8th century, late Slavic pots, bearing the mark of Avar influence, in the upper.
"utilization of potter's wheels probably spread from territory controlled by the Avars.." - as if there wasn't any indication of Scythians using the pottery wheel already a millennium earlier in the region.

Another example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justiniana_Prima

Justiniana Prima (Serbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbian_language): Царичин град) was a Byzantine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_Empire) city that existed from 535 to 615, and currently an archaeological site, near today's Lebane (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebane), Leskovac (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leskovac) district in southern Serbia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbia). It was founded by Emperor Justinian I (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justinian_I) and served as the seat of an Archbishopric that had jurisdiction of the Central Balkans. (..)
In 615 the city was destroyed by invading Avars (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurasian_Avars) coming from north of the Danube. (..)
Two fibulae[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justiniana_Prima#cite_note-2) and Slavic pottery made 550–600 show that a considerable part of the inhabitants of Justiniana Prima were Slavs before the Avar incursion.

Bottom lines:

There is no indication of a northward diffusion of the use of the pottery wheel from the Balkans, which had a long tradition in its use, to north of the Carpathians during the second half of the first millennium AD. This makes a Dinaric origin of the Slavs quite unlikely.
There are OTOH clear signs that hand-made pottery, as common north of the Carpathians, expanded into the Balkans. This may either be accepted as proof of Slavic immigration into the Balkans primarily from the north (and not from the NW Black Sea, which had a pottery wheel tradition as well). Alternatively, the advance of hand-made pottery may be regarded as relating to the general breakdown of long-distance trade relations and the incursion of various "Barbarians". Under such a scenario, most of the "official" chronology of Slavic settlement on the Balkans requires critical review.

vandalorum
22-06-14, 13:02
so, you believe the serbian story , that slavs all came from serbians ............the serbians filled Poland then Ukraine with slavs.

They (Slavs) lived south Poland, west Ukraine, Czech Republic and Lusatia. Balts lived north of them. The invasion of the Huns caused the outflow of the Slavs south. Have lived in Mozambique en masse Portuguese people?- because now in Mozambique speak portuguese language? Or it was only influence (Byzantine and Roman Empire, christian religion) on Balts (and Sarmatians or Scythians, which came here with Huns invasion)?

Aberdeen
22-06-14, 14:04
Most countries where Slavic languages are spoken today have high R1a, and those Slavic speakers who don't have high R1a, such as the Serbs, are in the Balkans and autosomal analysis shows that they closely resemble their Balkan neighbours, so they probably aren't very "Slavic" genetically. And linguists tell us that the Slavic languages are not that distance from the Iranic languages. So it seems likely to me that the Slavs were a late expansion from the original IE homeland, moving into eastern Europe and imposing their language and customs on the people who were already there and who were probably already a mixture of IE R1a and the original I2 inhabitants.

vandalorum
22-06-14, 14:51
Most countries where Slavic languages are spoken today have high R1a, and those Slavic speakers who don't have high R1a, such as the Serbs, are in the Balkans and autosomal analysis shows that they closely resemble their Balkan neighbours, so they probably aren't very "Slavic" genetically. And linguists tell us that the Slavic languages are not that distance from the Iranic languages. So it seems likely to me that the Slavs were a late expansion from the original IE homeland, moving into eastern Europe and imposing their language and customs on the people who were already there and who were probably already a mixture of IE R1a and the original I2 inhabitants.

South Slavs have quite a lot I2a1b and R1a1. Real Slavs lived south Poland, Czech, west Ukraine. Balts with some subclades R1a1 lived north of Slavs. In V century Huns invasion pushed forward other R1a1 nations such Sarmatians or Scythians.
Irish people with r1b and Spaniards with R1b look different. Balts looks different to South Slavs or Ukrainians (with sarmatians subclades R1a1).
Spaniards speak spanish Irish speak german english language.

Vedun
22-06-14, 16:13
Slavs speak something like todays serbian/croatian language. it existed. But Poles (mix of Balts, Dacians - Sarmatians, Celto-Germans and Normans) learn it from slavic version of Bible. And here lived and still live real Slavic people with I2a1b. White Serbia and White Croatia existed in south of Poland, west Ukraine, Bohemia. Czech language in my opinion is closer to serbian or croatian than to polish. Polish languages grows on ruthenian language - east "slavic", Polabian language was west slavic and extincted.
Pay attention that in Łużyce / Lusatia R1a1 prevails but there is also a large number of I2a1b. And Lusatia exist in a waist territory west Ukraine, south Poland/Czech and further west.

I do not know if ever it will be impossible to know the number of I2a1b in Poland. We know one - this haplogroup exist here. We have only 2 thousand examples of random people who paid for it.

There was no nation called "Celto-Germans". "Germans" as a nation and as a "german language" did not exist until 16th century "AD". There were only goths. quote: " learn it from slavic version of Bible " about which "source" in your Babble, sorry Bible are you talking about, Pentateuch(Torah / Leningrad Codex), written in 1009 AD?

Well sorry, i did not find any "celto germans" in any bible and less about any celto-germans. Regards to the "Bible" itself are Slavs described as "Magog" and as a "biggest enemy" to "god" and "chosen people"... Even this word (Magog) was perverted and invented in 11th century "AD" in the "new Jerusalem" or better said Byzantium, from the word Mogol (in old Greek means "Great" and has 0 to do with Chinese ("Mongolian") languages) where Sanhedrin collected and wrote the 1. version of the Old Testament, which became the "oldest Book on this planet" and a "book of all books". The Russian Tartarian Golden Orda from a territory called Mogol Tartaria, which has 0 to do with current Chinese nomads called "Mongols" and originally meant "Mega" (Magna, Mogochny, "great"), became the biggest treat to Yahwistic byzantium and Roman "empire"... and consequently called "Mongolian" and "barbaric".

Vedun
22-06-14, 16:16
I laugh so hard when somebody comes to me and starts this ideological and occult religious (Jahvistic & Christian) propaganda about "Christian invention of Slavic language in 7th century AD... How primitive this person can be... :)
Even the idiotic quotation of the word Slavic as "Slavic" is really annoying. Mose of these people spread their slavophobic ideology, some of them even try to claim Russian, Ukrainian lands as "Hungarian, German", etc...
Well they've tried but failed miserably in WW2, when they were sent home from where they came from... So much about claiming Slavic lands as "celto-german".

vandalorum
22-06-14, 16:30
There was no nation called "Celto-Germans". "Germans" as a nation and as a "german language" did not exist until 16th century "AD". There were only goths. quote: " learn it from slavic version of Bible " about which "source" in your Babble, sorry Bible are you talking about, Pentateuch(Torah / Leningrad Codex), written in 1009 AD?

Well sorry, i did not find any "celto germans" in any bible and less about any celto-germans. Regards to the "Bible" itself are Slavs described as "Magog" and as a "biggest enemy" to "god" and "chosen people"... Even this word (Magog) was perverted and invented in 11th century "AD" in the "new Jerusalem" or better said Byzantium, from the word Mogol (in old Greek means "Great" and has 0 to do with Chinese ("Mongolian") languages) where Sanhedrin collected and wrote the 1. version of the Old Testament, which became the "oldest Book on this planet" and a "book of all books". The Russian Tartarian Golden Orda from a territory called Mogol Tartaria, which has 0 to do with current Chinese nomads called "Mongols" and originally meant "Mega" (Magna, Mogochny, "great"), became the biggest treat to Yahwistic byzantium and Roman "empire"... and consequently called "Mongolian" and "barbaric".

Do You ever have seen typical Russian? Do you ever speak in russian with Yakut, Buritat or Karelian? They are proud nations, but not slavic. What means "moloko" - milk in this ugro-slavic language? - nothing. What means mleko (in polish, czechs, or slovenian)? mLEKo ma (to have) LEK (medicine).

vandalorum
22-06-14, 16:34
I laugh so hard when somebody comes to me and starts this ideological and occult religious (Jahvistic & Christian) propaganda about "Christian invention of Slavic language in 7th century AD... How primitive this person can be... :)
Even the idiotic quotation of the word Slavic as "Slavic" is really annoying. Mose of these people spread their slavophobic ideology, some of them even try to claim Russian, Ukrainian lands as "Hungarian, German", etc...
Well they've tried but failed miserably in WW2, when they were sent home from where they came from... So much about claiming Slavic lands as "celto-german".

Slavic language existed and exist in ex-Yugoslavia people. As portugese language exist.... in Portugal. If in Angola speak portuguese language, are this proud Africans portuguese people?

LeBrok
22-06-14, 17:13
Slavs speak something like todays serbian/croatian language. it existed. But Poles (mix of Balts, Dacians - Sarmatians, Celto-Germans and Normans) learn it from slavic version of Bible. And here lived and still live real Slavic people with I2a1b. White Serbia and White Croatia existed in south of Poland, west Ukraine, Bohemia. Czech language in my opinion is closer to serbian or croatian than to polish. Polish languages grows on ruthenian language - east "slavic", Polabian language was west slavic and extincted.
Pay attention that in Łużyce / Lusatia R1a1 prevails but there is also a large number of I2a1b. And Lusatia exist in a waist territory west Ukraine, south Poland/Czech and further west.

I do not know if ever it will be impossible to know the number of I2a1b in Poland. We know one - this haplogroup exist here. We have only 2 thousand examples of random people who paid for it.
It is normal for languages to borrow words from neighbours, and some words from local substratum. You can observe in almost every country.

There is no evidence that I2a1b was involved with proto Slavic.

LeBrok
22-06-14, 17:15
They (Slavs) lived south Poland, west Ukraine, Czech Republic and Lusatia. Balts lived north of them. The invasion of the Huns caused the outflow of the Slavs south.
You're missing many Germanic tribes who lived in these areas too, like Goths, Vandals, Suebi, and few others.

LeBrok
22-06-14, 17:32
Slavic language existed and exist in ex-Yugoslavia people. As portugese language exist.... in Portugal. If in Angola speak portuguese language, are this proud Africans portuguese people?
Do you have any attestation in historical records that Slavs ever spoke another language than Slavic?

I would like to add that Polish people took christianity from Holly Roman Empire not from Eastern Church. By logic of Christianity dictating languages. Polish should speak Latin, not Slavic.

Aberdeen
22-06-14, 19:02
South Slavs have quite a lot I2a1b and R1a1. Real Slavs lived south Poland, Czech, west Ukraine. Balts with some subclades R1a1 lived north of Slavs. In V century Huns invasion pushed forward other R1a1 nations such Sarmatians or Scythians.
Irish people with r1b and Spaniards with R1b look different. Balts looks different to South Slavs or Ukrainians (with sarmatians subclades R1a1).
Spaniards speak spanish Irish speak german english language.

Although the Irish and Spanish both are high in R1b, they don't have quite the same mixture of haplotypes, either Y or mtDNA, and their appearance is also shaped by climate and diet. Why would you expect them to look the same? Although some Irish have a "Mediterranean" look, others have red hair and pale skin that wouldn't flourish in the Spanish sun. And the only reason the Irish speak English is because the English conquered them and deliberately eradicated the Gaelic language from Ireland (for the most part), replacing it with English, so that only a handful of Irish now speak Gaelic. What does that prove? Only that any group of people, including the people now living in Slavic countries, could be partly descended from people who changed their language if a new elite came in and made an effort to change it for them.

Aberdeen
22-06-14, 19:10
There was no nation called "Celto-Germans". "Germans" as a nation and as a "german language" did not exist until 16th century "AD". There were only goths. quote: " learn it from slavic version of Bible " about which "source" in your Babble, sorry Bible are you talking about, Pentateuch(Torah / Leningrad Codex), written in 1009 AD?

Well sorry, i did not find any "celto germans" in any bible and less about any celto-germans. Regards to the "Bible" itself are Slavs described as "Magog" and as a "biggest enemy" to "god" and "chosen people"... Even this word (Magog) was perverted and invented in 11th century "AD" in the "new Jerusalem" or better said Byzantium, from the word Mogol (in old Greek means "Great" and has 0 to do with Chinese ("Mongolian") languages) where Sanhedrin collected and wrote the 1. version of the Old Testament, which became the "oldest Book on this planet" and a "book of all books". The Russian Tartarian Golden Orda from a territory called Mogol Tartaria, which has 0 to do with current Chinese nomads called "Mongols" and originally meant "Mega" (Magna, Mogochny, "great"), became the biggest treat to Yahwistic byzantium and Roman "empire"... and consequently called "Mongolian" and "barbaric".

This comment makes no sense to me. There doesn't have to have been a nation of people called "Celto-Germanic" in order for there to have been some linguistic groups in the past that could accurately be described as Celt-Germanic. However, it appears that the descendants of Celto-Germanic people got absorbed by other groups, mostly Germans. And yes, there was a Germanic language long before the 16th century AD - there are plenty of old German manuscripts to prove that. And old maps show that there was a general geographic area, referred to as "Germany" in English and by other names in other languages. The fact that the modern German state is a 19th century invention does not prove anything about the Germans except that they were divided for centuries - the German language and the concept of an area generally referred to as Germany existed long before the modern German state did. And what does that have to do with the origin of the Slavs?

vandalorum
22-06-14, 21:37
Do you have any attestation in historical records that Slavs ever spoke another language than Slavic?

I would like to add that Polish people took christianity from Holly Roman Empire not from Eastern Church. By logic of Christianity dictating languages. Polish should speak Latin, not Slavic.

Balts (and Sarmatians from Hunnic invasion) from todays Poland and Czech territory were baptized 2 times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius#Great_Moravia

LeBrok
23-06-14, 03:27
Balts (and Sarmatians from Hunnic invasion) from todays Poland and Czech territory were baptized 2 times.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saints_Cyril_and_Methodius#Great_Moravia
Not sure what Balts has to do with Slavic language? Sarmatians were Iranic speaking people. Hunnic were probably confederation West to Central Asian tribes and didn't speak Slavic either.
Not whole Poland but most likely only Wislanie belonged to Great Moravian Kingdom. Unification of Poland came from Pagan Polanie. And even before this time German historians refer to people of Poland as Sclaveni. Why would they refer as such if this poeple spoke different language than Slavic, as you suggest. It doesn't hold water.
Why would church invent a new language and taught christianity to pagans in it, if nobody could understand this language? It doesn't make sense. Cyril and Methody used language of Slavs because Slavs could understand their teaching in it.
Otherwise why invent something new, and not use Greek or Latin which were already widespread and functioned as lingua franca? Why completely new language?

Vedun
24-06-14, 23:09
"Why would church invent a new language and taught christianity to pagans in it, if nobody could understand this language? It doesn't make sense. Cyril and Methody used language of Slavs because Slavs could understand their teaching in it."

The "sense" about this 'theory' is to cut, annihilate Slavic elements, roots of their people and to "confuse" their languages. The logic is not important. Important is the message within this propaganda and attempt of domination which is a water on a Mill of every "historian" or non historian from this side...

Regards to "vandalorum". He is representing one of those spineless molluscs, as their minister Radoslaw (probably a "balto-celtic" name i guess) Sikorski already described few days ago, giving a Blowjob... So this is his position. And I totally understand him, do not take my words personally. I would be afraid of Russia too if I would be living in Poland. But I think that those times of Stalin are gone...
I guess even their most pro western people have started to think about the dangers of the Drang nach Osten also... Half of current "Germany"(which was originally a geographical term) was until 11th century partially Slavic. All the famous cities like Berlin, Brandenburg, Muenchen, Dresden,... have had origins in Slavic languages. This was a 'thorn' in a heel of many Goths and Christian "holy men" in those times. The best solution was an invention of Christianity for Slavs via Cyril and Method. This is how they brought this "religion of peace" to 'primitive barbaric Slavs', with a Genocide and slow parasitism. Even Sweden was part of this project of de-Slovenization. But even Sweden did not "forget" all Slavic words until today, instead of the major silence... brsk – brž, besok – obisk, bunke – bunka, nabunkati, butt – butniti, butati, drag – dražiti, dromme(izg. Dreme) – dremati, dronne – drneti, drysse – trositi, gnata – gnati, gnida – gnida, grabba – grabiti, grunda – gruntati, gunga – gugati, hel – cel, hit – hitro, kopa(izg. Kupe) – kupiti, lank (izg. Lenk) – členk, mange – mnogi, mare – mora, mena – meniti, minne – spominjati se, mole – mujati se, mork – mrk, mračen, pigg – pik, pikati, rafsa – ravsati se, rappa – nadrapati, nabiti koga, sael – vesel, sen – pozen, skada – škoda, spoke – spaka, strašiti, stro – stresati, strype(izg. Strupe) – strup, tanja ut – stranjšati, tiga – tiše, tiho, tiske – tiše, šepetati, torg – trg, tycka(izg.tuhe) – tuhtati, udd – ud, okončina, vadra(izg.vedre) – vedriti, vard – vreden, varg – volk, vingaard(izg.vingord) – vinograd, hraki – hrakelj(izpljunek ob hrakanju), prast – prost, korug(izg.kruh) – kruh, mylnar – mlinar, mylna – mlin, drag – dračje, gass(izg.gos) – gos, kvas – kvas,kvašeno, raka – rak, jordgubbe – jagoda, redding – redič, kvar – kvar, bra – dobra, tarna(izg.trna) – srna, dropp – droptina, strack(izg.strok) – strok, mjod – med, ata,ete – jesti, kupa(izg.kipe) – kipeti, most – mošt, olje – olje, satt – sit, soppa – župa, skorpa – skorja, skinka(izg.šinka) – šunka, skum – skominati(cediti sline), slubre – srebati, slen(izg.slin) – slina, tjock(izg.čok) – čok, torr – trd,trdo, dyrka – dirka, hlaupa – hlapec, sula – sulica, radd(izg.rt) – rit, otta(izg.oča) – oče, dykke – dekle, frakka – frača, loka – lok, pridn – priden, val – voliti.

All words above are Swedish-Slovenian (Svenska & Slovenska) & I have not even touched any Russian or Polish yet... now imagine those pre "Russian "Vikings"(no, i am not talking about Swedish Vikings, Jarls) being in fact only Venetic (Slavic) Variags(which were not the Vikings) living in a city called Stargard ("old city"/ Grad (indeed; "Mitgard, Asgard = Mitgrad, Asgrad.. like "Stalingrad") in current Poland & Germany, who became rulers over Russian Veneti and moved their capital city Stargard to a new capital city called Novgorod (means "New Grad" or "new city")...

Language is a very powerful thing... If you destroy it, assimilate it, gives you a power over the whole (new) nation. In few 100 years there will exist Historians who will claim that "Poland was never a Slavic speaking territory", because they will already speak German and English with few Polish slavic "remains" which will be telling some different story about them...

arvistro
06-08-14, 23:42
there are attempts to reconstruct Dacian vocabulary

some of reconstructed words


1) *aba, apa[14] water, river *ab- ("water", "river")

ok, this is about river names....
Slavic ending for river is often -ava

example in ex Yugoslavia Morava, Drava, Sava, Tamnava, Mlava....

thus, 1/1

2) *akmon[17] stone, rock


Slavic kamen = stone, rock

thus, 2/2

3)

*alda (noun),
*alta- (adj.)[21] swamp, waterlogged

I would say this is bad reconstruction as in Illyrian there is
alt = stream

Slavic liti = to flow

thus, 3/3



3/4 *alm- to flow, to stream RN Almus - no match
3/5 *amalas mistletoe PN Amlaidina - no match
3/6 *auras water RN Αύρας - no match
3/7 *axi- black PN Άξίοπα - no match
4/8 *baidas frightening, repulsive - bojati se (to be afraid)
4.5/9 *bal warrior bojnik / vojnik
5/10 *balas,*balos[24] strong [24] *bel ('strong')[24], - balast = carried weight

6/11 *balas white belo
7/12 *berza birch-tree breza
7/13 *bur, buris[28]
7/14 *brukla[29] cranberry

7/15 *buta(s)[31] house, hut, dwelling

8/16 *čuk-[34] peak, summit *ḱu- ("sharp", "pike") čuka = peak

8.5/17 *daba character, nature dobar = good natured

9.5/18 *dava city, fortress tvrdjava = tvrd (hard/solid/strong) + dava = fortress
9.5 / 19 *degis burning, shining PRN Degis
9.5 / 20 *dina place, area, plain PN Amlai-dina
this is Celtic ending!!

10.5/21 *dikas brave or strong, mighty dika = person we are proud of

10.5/22 *dita(s)[38] light (noun), bright (adj.)
11.5 /23 *drasda thrush (bird) drozd
12/24 *dribas, *drigas[40] wild, restless dripac - punk, corrupt person

12/25 *duia[43] swamp or mist, drizzle

13/26 *dumas dark brown tama = darkness
13/27 *galtis sheet-ice, frost
13/28 *genukla[45] pasture, meadow
13/29 *geras[47] good (-natured), kind
13/30 *germas hot, warm PN Γέρμαζα
13/31 *gilus[49] deep
14/32 *gira (giria) forest or mountain gora = mountain
14/33 *granda[51] plank
14/34 *griva[53] river-bed or river-mouth
14/35 kaga[55] sacred, holy
15/36 *kalas catfish? karaš
15/37 *kapas hill, slope
16/38 *karpa to cut, stone [58] krpiti = to sew, to put together
17/39 *karsa cave kras = carst
18/40 *katas stall, animal enclosure, fish-basin katun = shepards temporary house in hills
18/41 *keda chair, stool
19/42 *kerba swampy ground čorba = thick soup
19/43 *kerna bush
19/44 *kerta clearing in a wood
19/45 *kina dry place in a swamp
19/46 *klevas maple-tree PN Clevora
19/47 *krata swampy place or pile, heap
19/48 *kurta grove, glade
20/49 *lug- swamp, morass lug = grove
20/50 *maska pool, puddle
20/51 *medeka glade, small wood
20/52 *musas mould, moss
20/53 *nara(s) river, brook
20/54 *pala, *palma swamp, bog
21/55 *pil- to flow ploviti = to sail, to float
21/56 *preida pine-tree
21/57 *put- to swell, thicken
21/58 *ramus peaceful, restful - mir = peace
21/59 *rō(u)ka drizzle, fine rain
21/60 *rus- to flow
21/61 *san-apa confluence (of two rivers)
22/62 *sausas dry suvo = dry, suša = dry period
22/63 *sermas river, river-current
22/64 *skabas sharp, quick, lively
22/65 *skaudus painful, sad or powerful
22/66 *skuia fir-tree
22/67 *skumbras hill, down
23/68 *spirus fast, quick, rapid brzo
24/69 *stendas stiff, rigid, viscose stena =rock
24/70 *suka tear (ripped), gap
24/71 *suras salty
24/72 *taras chatterer, gossiper
25/73- *tauta people, nation, country četa = group of people (forming military unit)
25/74 *tiras bare, barren, desolate
26/75 *tut- blow, smoke duvati
26/76 *upa river
26/77 *urda stream, brook
26/78 *vaigas fast, rapid
27/79 *varpa whirlpool vir
27/80 *visas fertile, fruitful
28/81 *zalmo- fur, skin, shield šlem = helmet
28/82 *zelmas shoot (of a plant) zemlja = ground
28/83 *zud-as careful, precise
29/84 *zuras hot, shining zora = dawn
29/85 *zuv- fish

conclusion is that reconstructed Dacian words are much closer to proto-Slavic than Thracian words...

To me all of these words sound familiar and very Lithuanian/old Latvian dialects (modern Latvian is one step away because of Germanic influence and Finnish way of pronounciation). Very Baltic language, very nice and familiar sound. Just my 2 cents :)
Of Slavic languages that I have heard or know it reminds me most of Polish (heard) and then Russian (know), but if Latvian is step away, modern Slavic languages seem two/three steps away from Dacian but in other direction.

FrankN
08-08-14, 01:32
"Why would church invent a new language and taught christianity to pagans in it, if nobody could understand this language? It doesn't make sense. Cyril and Methody used language of Slavs because Slavs could understand their teaching in it."

The "sense" about this 'theory' is to cut, annihilate Slavic elements, roots of their people and to "confuse" their languages. The logic is not important. Important is the message within this propaganda and attempt of domination which is a water on a Mill of every "historian" or non historian from this side...

Regards to "vandalorum". He is representing one of those spineless molluscs, as their minister Radoslaw (probably a "balto-celtic" name i guess) Sikorski already described few days ago, giving a Blowjob... So this is his position. And I totally understand him, do not take my words personally. I would be afraid of Russia too if I would be living in Poland. But I think that those times of Stalin are gone...
I guess even their most pro western people have started to think about the dangers of the Drang nach Osten also... Half of current "Germany"(which was originally a geographical term) was until 11th century partially Slavic. All the famous cities like Berlin, Brandenburg, Muenchen, Dresden,... have had origins in Slavic languages. This was a 'thorn' in a heel of many Goths and Christian "holy men" in those times. The best solution was an invention of Christianity for Slavs via Cyril and Method. This is how they brought this "religion of peace" to 'primitive barbaric Slavs', with a Genocide and slow parasitism. Even Sweden was part of this project of de-Slovenization. But even Sweden did not "forget" all Slavic words until today, instead of the major silence... brsk – brž, besok – obisk, bunke – bunka, nabunkati, butt – butniti, butati, drag – dražiti, dromme(izg. Dreme) – dremati, dronne – drneti, drysse – trositi, gnata – gnati, gnida – gnida, grabba – grabiti, grunda – gruntati, gunga – gugati, hel – cel, hit – hitro, kopa(izg. Kupe) – kupiti, lank (izg. Lenk) – členk, mange – mnogi, mare – mora, mena – meniti, minne – spominjati se, mole – mujati se, mork – mrk, mračen, pigg – pik, pikati, rafsa – ravsati se, rappa – nadrapati, nabiti koga, sael – vesel, sen – pozen, skada – škoda, spoke – spaka, strašiti, stro – stresati, strype(izg. Strupe) – strup, tanja ut – stranjšati, tiga – tiše, tiho, tiske – tiše, šepetati, torg – trg, tycka(izg.tuhe) – tuhtati, udd – ud, okončina, vadra(izg.vedre) – vedriti, vard – vreden, varg – volk, vingaard(izg.vingord) – vinograd, hraki – hrakelj(izpljunek ob hrakanju), prast – prost, korug(izg.kruh) – kruh, mylnar – mlinar, mylna – mlin, drag – dračje, gass(izg.gos) – gos, kvas – kvas,kvašeno, raka – rak, jordgubbe – jagoda, redding – redič, kvar – kvar, bra – dobra, tarna(izg.trna) – srna, dropp – droptina, strack(izg.strok) – strok, mjod – med, ata,ete – jesti, kupa(izg.kipe) – kipeti, most – mošt, olje – olje, satt – sit, soppa – župa, skorpa – skorja, skinka(izg.šinka) – šunka, skum – skominati(cediti sline), slubre – srebati, slen(izg.slin) – slina, tjock(izg.čok) – čok, torr – trd,trdo, dyrka – dirka, hlaupa – hlapec, sula – sulica, radd(izg.rt) – rit, otta(izg.oča) – oče, dykke – dekle, frakka – frača, loka – lok, pridn – priden, val – voliti.

All words above are Swedish-Slovenian (Svenska & Slovenska) & I have not even touched any Russian or Polish yet... now imagine those pre "Russian "Vikings"(no, i am not talking about Swedish Vikings, Jarls) being in fact only Venetic (Slavic) Variags(which were not the Vikings) living in a city called Stargard ("old city"/ Grad (indeed; "Mitgard, Asgard = Mitgrad, Asgrad.. like "Stalingrad") in current Poland & Germany, who became rulers over Russian Veneti and moved their capital city Stargard to a new capital city called Novgorod (means "New Grad" or "new city")...

Language is a very powerful thing... If you destroy it, assimilate it, gives you a power over the whole (new) nation. In few 100 years there will exist Historians who will claim that "Poland was never a Slavic speaking territory", because they will already speak German and English with few Polish slavic "remains" which will be telling some different story about them...
Vedun -please! We discussed that list already here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29330-slavic-germanic-and-others-for-the-fun?p=435692&viewfull=1#post435692 Five of that words are Slavic, the majority clearly Germanic or based on common IE roots, and a couple are not found in any online Swedish dictionary.
You Stargard claim has been discussed here: http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28688-Are-Vikings-overrated?p=435491&viewfull=1#post435491
And Muenchen is of course not a Slavic name, but stems from Latin "monasterium" (monastery).

Instead of answering to respective posts, and bringing forth additional arguments that may be worth discussing, you just post the same, unsubstianted sh*t in another (this) thread. This is neither helping the community to gain additional insight, nor your standing and reputation.

And, please, please, stop posting your "anti-Slavic conspiration" nonsense. My mother-in-law had a Slavic maiden name, her grandfather migrated from Ostrow Wiekopolski to Sczcecin. That didn't prevent his daughter, my grandmother-in-law, to be expelled from her home in 1945 for being German. Yesterday I met my god-father, now 87 years old, a polish-born American citizen. His grandfather fought with the Austro-Hungarian army in WW I, his mother finished her high school in Vienna, still they were Poles to German occupant forces during WW II and treated as such. He acquired his excellent German from a woman his parents in Warsaw had taken up in the late 1930s, after that woman, who had studied in Berlin, had been expelled by Germans from her home near Posznan.
The Prussian-Polish-Austro-Hungarian history is complicated, but until 1914 or maybe even 1939 more about ethno-linguistic crossover and cooperation than about forced Germanisation or Slavisation. There has been enough disaster brought over individuals that quite happily moved in the "grey zone" of being partly Polish, partly Prussian or KuK Galizian, by political leaders (Germans and Russians and Poles and Czechs), who wanted to sort them into the "German" vs "Slavic" category. Don't also fall into that trap - recognise people as individuals that may have a multi-linguistic, multi-ethnic background! In fact, isn't it that multi-ethnic fluency that makes Europe such a fascinating continent to live in or explore?

Tomenable
20-09-14, 23:51
Volga region could very probably be the place inhabited by some Proto-Slavs (linguistic and certainly partially also genetic ancestors of Slavs) in ancient times. Perhaps the only known ancient tribe which actually had a name that resembles own names of Slavs for themselves, were Slovenoi, mentioned by Ptolemy. And those Slovenoi (Σουοβενοι) lived along the Volga River, according to Ptolemy's "Geography" (2nd century AD). Later Slavs migrated to Central & Northern Ukraine and Southern Belarus, but that was not their most ancient homeland. And from Ukraine-Belarus, they migrated further to the Balkans and to Central Europe, as well as into Ugro-Finnic areas in Russia.

Lubomir Czupkiewicz in his book "Origins and race of Slavs" goes even further, and places the original homeland of Slavs not in Europe, but in North-Central Asia, just to the east of Ural Mountains. But his map shows that Slavs migrated to the Volga region, and later migrated further.

So Czupkiewicz's theory does not contradict the presence of Slavs at the Volga River during Ptolemy's time.

Let's quote Czupkiewicz (he places the original homeland of Slavs in close proximity to that of Iranians, to the north of them):

"(...) Perhaps at the turns of the 3rd and the 2nd centuries BC, Slavs abandoned their first homeland at the Kazakh-Siberian border, crossed the Ural Mountains and started conquering the land located between these mountains and the middle Volga River, pushing away from that territory Ugro-Finnic tribes of the Ananin culture. Around the mid-2nd century BC, under the pressure of the Huns, Iranian tribes of the Massagetae and the Sakae travel south from the Syr Darya River, destroying the Greco-Bactrian Kingdom on their way. Continued Hunnic invasions accelerated also the abandonment of the steppes of Kazakhstan and Central Asia by other nomadic Iranian tribes. (...)"

So Slavs started migrating towards the Volga River in times before Christ. By the 2nd century AD they could already be there.

Later Slavs migrated towards Ukraine, where some of their tribes (the Antes) encountered the Goths, about which Jordanes wrote.

There is no doubt that Slavs had contact with Goths, because there are Gothic loanwords in LCE (Late Common Slavic) language.

PhD thesis "Wojskowość dawnych Słowian w świetle faktów językowych" ("Warfare of early Slavs in the light of linguistic facts"):

http://www.sbc.org.pl/dlibra/docmeta...om=publication (http://www.sbc.org.pl/dlibra/docmetadata?id=12697&from=publication)

Author analyses which weapons were used by early Slavs, and which were adopted later (or at least names for them).

There is also linguistic evidence for proximity between Slavic-speakers and Iranian-speakers in ancient times.

Tomenable
21-09-14, 02:20
Czupkiewicz wrote:


The Dnipro-Asiatic theory of the origin of Slavs says that Slavs originated in Asia, to the east of the Ural Mountains, at the northern border between steppe and forest (Taiga). Several centuries before Christ they started gradually migrating from that region to the region between the Dnieper and the Bug Rivers (K. Moszynski's theory).

K. Moszyński among proofs for his theory cited loanwords from languages of typically steppe peoples (Iranian and Turko-Tatar peoples). He also noticed some connections of early Slavic spiritual and social culture with culture of steppe peoples of Central Asia, as well as other oriental elements among early Slavs, like for example their way of using bow (using thumb when lifting bowstring), which is the same as that of ancient Indo-European Scythians as well as Turkic peoples and Mongols.

Transporting constructions on wagons by Slavs - the linguistic trace of which is the word "wieża" (tower), which comes from "wieźć" (to transport) - was a typically Scythian way too.

Czupkiewicz quotes evidence for ancient presence of Slavs in proximity with both Finno-Ugric and with Iranian populations.

He then writes the following:


Finno-Ugric peoples from most ancient times until the 10th century lived in north-eastern Europe, from the western slopes of the Ural Mountains, across the Dvina River basin up to the northern coasts of the Baltic Sea. While nomadic tribes of Iranian origin - that is the Scythians, the Sarmatians, the Aorsi and the Alans - lived since the 7th century BC until the 4th century AD in the steppe zone in the south, extending from Kazakhstan to the Caspian and Black Sea steppes up to the mouth of the Danube.

In most of that area territories of Finno-Ugric and Iranian tribes were divided by space of more than a thousand kilometers and only in one place the distance decreased to 200-300 kilometers: between the middle Volga and the southern part of the Ural Mountains. At this longitude territory of Finno-Ugric settlement extended more to the south and reached the Kama and Belaya Rivers, and territory occupied by Iranian tribes extended up to the northern border of the steppe, which was roughly along the Samara River.

In the rest of Eastern Europe we cannot find another place, where territories inhabited by Ugro-Finnic and Iranian populations were so close to each other.

Therefore it seems that the only place where Slavs in their ancient past could live in close proximity to both Ugro-Finnic and Iranian tribes was the area located between the Ural and the middle Volga, in the north extending up to the lower Kama and in the south extending to the Samara and the border of the steppe. This is a territory of about 200 thousand square km - a land of forest and forest-steppe, with mostly black earth soils. That quite extensive area, equal to 2/3 of the area of modern Poland, could easily feed the Slavic ethnos, which by the end of the previous era (BC) numbered an estimated 200 - 300 thousand people.

Slavs had migrated there from the borderland between Kazakhstan and Russia, probably at the turns of the 3rd and the 2nd centuries BC, when chronicles recorded in Central Asia huge ethnic movements, caused by invasions by Mongolic and Iranian nomadic tribes from the east and from the south. (...)

This datation of the arrival of Slavs to the area between the Urals and the middle Volga seems to be indicated also by fact, that during the same time local archaeological culture, ascribed to Finno-Ugric population, which had been developing without interruption from the 8th century BC, known as Ananin culture, collapsed. It covered areas along the middle Volga, lower Kama and Belaya. Population of the Ananin culture were farmers, herders, hunters and fishers. It had the knowledge of smelting copper, bronze and iron. Weaving was quite well developed. Pottery was made of clay. Settlements were constructed near meanders of rivers, surrounded by earthwork ramparts, ditches and palisades.

The disappearance of the Ananin Culture might indicate that this area was subject to expansion of another people. That people could be Slavs who came from behind the Ural. The Ananin Culture was perhaps not completely destroyed by Slavs, but at least some of its elements had to be adopted by them, for example when it comes to agriculture, weaving, clay pottery, iron smelting, constructing earthwork ramparts, etc.

There is one more important evidence, which confirms the presence of Slavs in that area. This is the information noted by Claudius Ptolemy in his "Geography", written in the middle of the 2nd century. In part of "Geography" describing areas located between the Volga (Rha) and the Urals (Imaos), Ptolemy mentions a people living there, called "Suowenoi". It is surprising that most of historians are silent about this information and marginalize its important. And these few, who mention it, express a categorical view, that it is impossible that those people were Slavs, because according to them Slavs could not be living so far from the center of Europe, and therefore this name perhaps refers to some Finnic tribe (Suomi).

Even H. Łowmiański, who acknowledged, that the name could indeed mean Slavs, considered that the localization of their homeland (the Volga region) had to be a Ptolemy's mistake, commenting that: "Suowenoi, due to their geographical location, are unimportant for researchers of Slavic history as a historical hint" (Łowmiański, 1963, p. 176).

I disagree, I think that we should exclude the possibility of a mistake, because in the same part of Europe Ptolemy accurately located other peoples living in the 2nd century AD near the southern Urals, such as the Alans, the Alanorsi, or the Massagetae. Why should he be mistaken just in case of the Suowenoi?

From linguistic point of view, the name "Suowenoi" should undoubtedly be translated as Słowianie, or more procisely - as Słowienie. Archaic name Słowienie until nowadays has left its traces in names such as Slovenia, Slovensko, Słoweńcy. One of east Slavic tribes was also called Słowienie Ilmeńscy.

If we reject not supported by any evidence hypotheses associating Slavs with the Neuri of Herodotus (5th century BC), [etc.] (...), then this info about the Suowenoi is the first historical note, about which there is no doubt, that it refers to Slavs.

These evidences therefore indicate that the intermediary area, which was occupied by Slavs after their migration at the turns of the 3rd and the 2nd centuries BC out of Central Asia, but before their settlement in the basin of the middle Dnieper River, was the mentioned land between the middle Volga and the Urals.

Tomenable
21-09-14, 02:25
Czupkiewicz also suggests that it is possible that the earliest Slavs - at the time when they lived in the steppe-Taiga borderland in modern northern Kazakhstan and southern Russia - were originally nomadic steppe peoples, and that they settled and became agriculturalists under the influence of the Ananin culture at the Volga River, which had been destroyed by them (but in the process of destroying it they also adopted some of its elements).

This would not be surprising, considering that for example Greeks were also originally nomadic steppe tribes:

http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1a_Y-DNA.shtml#Greek


the arrival of Proto-Greek speakers from the steppes. The Mycenaean culture commenced circa 1650 BCE and is clearly an imported steppe culture. The close relationship between Mycenaean and Proto-Indo-Iranian languages suggest that they split fairly late, some time between 2500 and 2000 BCE. Archeologically, Mycenaean chariots, spearheads, daggers and other bronze objects show striking similarities with the Seima-Turbino culture (c. 1900-1600 BCE) of the northern Russian forest-steppes, known for the great mobility of its nomadic warriors (Seima-Turbino sites were found as far away as Mongolia). It is therefore likely that the Mycenaean descended from Russia to Greece between 1900 and 1650 BCE, where they intermingled with the locals to create a new unique Greek culture.Indo-Europeans expanded into Europe from the steppes. Each of subsequent waves of IE invaders were originally nomads.

Why should Slavs be the only (or one of very few) exception from the Indo-European rule.

Tomenable
21-09-14, 02:56
As for so called "Balto-Slavs":

Balts have about equal proportions of N (Ugro-Finnic) and R1 (Indo-European) haplogroup. Slavs don't have so much N.

When Balts and Slavs were one people (I agree that they once had been), they could not have N haplogroup in large amount.

The conclusion is that Balts emerged as the result of Proto-Slavs (or call them "Balto-Slavs" if you want) mixing with Ugro-Finns.

So it was not Slavs who split from "Balto-Slavs", but rather Balts split first - as the result of mixing with Ugro-Finnic tribes.

And those "Balto-Slavs" should rather be called Slavo-Balts, or Proto-Slavs, etc., because this shows better what happened.

LeBrok
21-09-14, 08:10
As for so called "Balto-Slavs":

Balts have about equal proportions of N (Ugro-Finnic) and R1 (Indo-European) haplogroup. Slavs don't have so much N.

When Balts and Slavs were one people (I agree that they once had been), they could not have N haplogroup in large amount.
The name says Balto-Slavs but there were no Balts or Slavs back then. We don't know their original name therefore, for the lack of better taxonomy, we call them this name. The Ugro-Finnic N points to the times when some of these Balto-Slavs got mixed with Ugro-Finnic people, thus creation of new culture and new language, with base being this Balto-Slavic.

There is also an Iranic or better to say Sanskrit influence in Baltic languages, which we don't see in Slavic for such extend. It might mean some extra (third) of Iranic tribes influence over Baltic tribes, or that Baltic was insulated, or proto Slavic got drifted away from the base by some unknown influence.

I don't think it is a simple case of one language splitting in two due to distances between tribes and drifting away in temporal dimension. It is more of a case of one language (dominant IE) spreading over local language substratum, or invader's language mixing with locals Balto-Slavs, and probably this process repeated more than couple of times. Plus, the languages drifting apart for about 3 thousand years.

If we could only find writing in Balto-Slavic the case would be solved.

arvistro
21-09-14, 10:27
N in modern Balts I believe is later thing. Given Lithuanian elite was responsible for spread of Baltic specific clade (cousin to Varangian one) I think it was introduced in 600-900 AD in Baltics by Varyags.

Garrick
21-09-14, 11:22
For me it is interesting the link between Thracians and Balto-Slavic peoples, because there are reputable scientists who find closeness between Thracian and Balto-Slavic.

According to haplogroups Serbs (as South Slavic people) are similar to Romanians, but and Romanians spoke one version of Thracian language (they were Dacians) before they romanized and received Latin.

There are scientists who say that language of Slavic people in the South of Europe (Serbian/Bulgarian) was basis for North (East and West) Slavic people, and not vice versa.

Of course, certainly need more research about Thracian and Balto-Slavic.

Also, scientists should determine exactly haplogroups of Thracians (whether I2a, R1a, E-V13, J2, etc ...).

gyms
21-09-14, 11:26
Sweet people,slav is not race,is culture.

Tomenable
21-09-14, 14:54
Well it seems that the subclade of N absorbed by Balts and some Slavs - N1c1-L550 - was not necessarily Ugro-Finnic:

At least this is what user Armstrong01 suggests in this link:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?137904-Your-Rationalization-of-the-Origin-of-Slavs&p=2978520

But maybe that L550 subclade belonged to some Non-IE people who got fully absorbed by Proto-Balts and thus don't exist today?


There is also an Iranic or better to say Sanskrit influence in Baltic languages, which we don't see in Slavic for such extend.

There is also a lot of Iranic influence in Slavic languages, maybe just not as much from Sanskrit, but more of it is from other, younger Iranic languages.*

*Which might be the result of the fact that ancestors of Slavs lived in close proximity to Iranians longer than ancestors of Balts.

But Sanskrit connections are also there.

Slavic word "slava" ("fame", "glory") comes from Sanskrit word "sravah" ("glorious activities" / "famous" / "celebrated"):

sravah -- glorious activities -- Sanskrit Dictionary (http://sanskritdictionary.org/sravah)

Slavic sun god Svarozic (Swarozic) and words such as svar / swar / skwar, are related to Iranic word xvar (sun) and to Indo-Aryan svar (sun).

In Sanskrit language, a deity known as Svaraj (note similarity to Slavic Svarozic) was one of seven solar Rays:

Svaraj definition by Babylon?s free dictionary (http://dictionary.babylon.com/svaraj/)

Sanskrit Rays also have an Iranian equivalent - god Ray - and a Pagan Slavic equivalent - god Raj (raj also means paradise in modern Polish).

Vedun
21-09-14, 15:34
"So Slavs started migrating towards the Volga River in times before Christ."
First, there was no Christ and second, there was no major migration of Slavs, ever.

"There is no doubt that Slavs had contact with Goths, because there are Gothic loanwords in LCE (Late Common Slavic) language."

I can give you 500 Slovene words which have identical Lingual roots to Akkadian and above 300 words from Egyptian-Slovene-Punic-Sanskrit... Another example is the use of the Egyptian word KMT or "Khemet" in Croatian Slavonic & Slovenian Prekmurian, as "Kmica" (Kmitsa) which means "black" and "Kmični" as "darkened"... Egypt literally means "Black" in those 2 Slavic languages. So how would you explain it? With allegedly Vandals who came back from Africa and settled down in Pannonia and in (V)Andalusia? So your theory about some major migration from Karphatian mountains, Volga & Dnieper area (only) fails already here and language is the best indicator of this failed theory "out of 1 source only". Another indication are newest archeological discoveries in Slovenia, in region of Prekmurje. Archeologists themselves told me, there is no proof of any major migration of Slavs in 6th century and that they have found the same artifacts , which even predate the 4th century AD ("Scythians" who used same pottery already in 1st century AD) and drive a cultural correlation with the same people who "came" later, after 6th century. But those migrations are unrecognizable (from 1st to 6th century AD, there are no differences). That's why they've concluded, that those minor migrations probably happened because eastern men (probably nomads, soldiers) were seeking brides in the Pannonian basin...

Vedun
21-09-14, 15:51
"Sweet people,slav is not race,is culture."

Germanic people aren't a race either. They are a culture..

Vedun
21-09-14, 16:31
"Slavic sun god Svarozic (Swarozic) and words such as svar / swar / skwar, are related to Iranic word xvar (sun) and to Indo-Aryan svar (sun).

In Sanskrit language, a deity known as Svaraj (note similarity to Slavic Svarozic) was one of seven solar Rays:"

Dig deeper into the meaning of SVARGA. Svarun or Svarozich was nothing else than Vedic god Varuna...who rules over Svarga. And Svarga does not have a root in Hindu, Pali, Bengali, Akkadian, Babylonian, Hebrew, German, Chinese, but in old Slavic language; Svarit or "to boil" (and heat up) and to "transform it" (variti) (chemically) into something new... Variti Pivo (beer), variti mleko (milk) and making a curdled (kisli - sour) sir- Cheese (kṣīroda in Sanskrit)... Ocean of Milk (kṣīroda)- from where comes the Milky way..."Heaven" (Svarga)...

This is Ocean of Milk... of Svarga, in Svargaloka (Svarogov log; Svarog's / Svaruna's heaven; Milky way)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/02/25/worlds-oldest-cheese/5776373/

http://www.ibtimes.com/worlds-oldest-cheese-found-3600-year-old-chinese-mummies-made-ancient-technology-1558756

http://shrani.si/f/23/Qu/3JBaCADg/tarim.jpg

http://www.cannabisculture.com/files/images/churning2.preview.jpg


http://roberthorvat30.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/1.jpg?w=477

http://montalk.net/gnosis_images/horus.gif

http://montalk.net/gnosis_images/maya.gif


http://montalk.net/gnosis_images/galaxy.jpg


Raj (ray) is paradise in Slavic & रय् (ray or rayate) as "to go" in Sanskrit(&slovene as "rayati"; "celebrating, dancing,...") & Viray as the "splendour. Viraj is the mythical primeval being associated with creation who is often personified as the secondary creator and who can be either male or female"; (transliteration in Slovene as "VEN/VAN"-RAY(out of Paradise") - out of PURUSHA (from this form comes "Parsi"(part); "Persian"... Pršiti - to "spray"(अभि; prusay) as a rain out of 1 source... "radiant" 1 deity...

But Svaraj and not Svaray is a later Hindi (and not actually Sanskrit) word and means "swa" or "self" - raja (regnum; reign)...

In Slovene as Raya which means "ordinary people"; Ne-Raya (not raya) as Elites, hence "reign" of Araja (A=Not in Sanskrit; opposite to something; "od", "at") or Arajan ("Ariyan")...But Arya also derives from Agrahayana (Prakrit), according to Brahmin Gangadhar Tilak, which means "Orion" in later Greek... Agrahayana transmuted into Slavic Agrayana (with a lack of "ha") and later into Ogriana which means "to heat up" (warm), shining, white ... "radiant" stars of Orion... Scholars (Astronomers) of Orion & Saptarishi (7 Rishis; Big Bear constellation) brought Vedas to Saraswati and Prajapati in India. (Veda is an abstract knowledge; knan, gnan; dognanje or znanje; In Slovene Veda and Vedenje("knowing") is not equal to "knowing somebody as your friend...", but as "abstraktno poznavanje (znanje), dognanje(abstract knowing, perception, forecasting - things in advance).

gyms
21-09-14, 16:41
"Sweet people,slav is not race,is culture."

Germanic people aren't a race either. They are a culture..
Exactly.

http://www.cambridge.org/us/academic/subjects/languages-linguistics/sociolinguistics/language-and-ethnicity
"Fought's latest book on sociolinguistics is informative, comprehensive, and enlightening. It provides an accessible discussion of the interrelationship of language and ethnicity with superb examples of all of the phenomena discussed. A glossary of terms and a comprehensive set of references complement this excellent volume."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_identity

Cultural identity is the identity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_(social_science)) or feeling of belonging to, as part of the self-conception and self-perception to nationality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nationality), ethnicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicity), religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion), social class (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_class), generation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generation), locality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locality) and any kind of social group that have its own distinct culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture), in this way that cultural identity is both characteristic of the individual (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Individual) but also to the culturally identical group that has its members sharing the same cultural identity.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_identity#cite_note-1) Cultural identity is similar to and overlaps with, identity politics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_politics).[

arvistro
21-09-14, 17:42
Well it seems that the subclade of N absorbed by Balts and some Slavs - N1c1-L550 - was not necessarily Ugro-Finnic:

At least this is what user Armstrong01 suggests in this link:

http://www.theapricity.com/forum/showthread.php?137904-Your-Rationalization-of-the-Origin-of-Slavs&p=2978520

But maybe that L550 subclade belonged to some Non-IE people who got fully absorbed by Proto-Balts and thus don't exist today.
In the same forum they had graph of n1c1. Of three brother clades 1 is in Spain, 1 is Rurik's varyags, 1 is Gediminas & Giedroits South Baltic.
Intuition tells me despite its age it got into those places during Baltic viking age via entering ruling clans in Prussia/Lith.
Even more so because it seems to correlate perfectly with Baltic tribes around 1000 AD, except golyads which at that time was already surrounded by Slavs and did not get their portion.

Tomenable
21-09-14, 18:17
As to race. Here is the definition of race that I found:

"(...) If the two populations are so distinct that one can generally tell from which region a speciman was obtained, it is usual to give separate names to the two races. (...)"

And here from a lecture about assimilation of European and Mexican immigrants into the American society:

"(...) The European immigrants who came during the great wave had an advantage in terms of assimilation that we don't really talk about much anymore, and that is that they looked a lot like natives. Of course there are some differences, people could look 'noticeably Italian', some people could look 'noticeably Irish', but the differences were small, for sure. In many cases they were non-existent. So once you had immigrants or children of immigrants who began to 'act like Americans', so to speak, they essentially blended in, they were indistinguishable from other Americans, to the point where it is difficult to know if you were Polish or English, or something like that. And that's an advantage that the Hispanics generally do not have. Hispanics of course tend to be a mixture of Spanish and American Indian descent. Most of the immigrants we receive tend to be more in the American Indian end of that spectrum. (...) Hispanic immigrants usually look distinctly and non-White. (...)"

Tomenable
21-09-14, 18:21
1 is Rurik's varyags

That is probably from Kvens (some of them could be Swedicized Kvens).

arvistro
21-09-14, 18:47
That is probably from Kvens (some of them could be Swedicized Kvens).
I think they are all from Kvens. Just different Kven clans.. But that is just my non-scientific theory.

Sile
21-09-14, 20:41
"So Slavs started migrating towards the Volga River in times before Christ."
First, there was no Christ and second, there was no major migration of Slavs, ever.

"There is no doubt that Slavs had contact with Goths, because there are Gothic loanwords in LCE (Late Common Slavic) language."

I can give you 500 Slovene words which have identical Lingual roots to Akkadian and above 300 words from Egyptian-Slovene-Punic-Sanskrit... Another example is the use of the Egyptian word KMT or "Khemet" in Croatian Slavonic & Slovenian Prekmurian, as "Kmica" (Kmitsa) which means "black" and "Kmični" as "darkened"... Egypt literally means "Black" in those 2 Slavic languages. So how would you explain it? With allegedly Vandals who came back from Africa and settled down in Pannonia and in (V)Andalusia? So your theory about some major migration from Karphatian mountains, Volga & Dnieper area (only) fails already here and language is the best indicator of this failed theory "out of 1 source only". Another indication are newest archeological discoveries in Slovenia, in region of Prekmurje. Archeologists themselves told me, there is no proof of any major migration of Slavs in 6th century and that they have found the same artifacts , which even predate the 4th century AD ("Scythians" who used same pottery already in 1st century AD) and drive a cultural correlation with the same people who "came" later, after 6th century. But those migrations are unrecognizable (from 1st to 6th century AD, there are no differences). That's why they've concluded, that those minor migrations probably happened because eastern men (probably nomads, soldiers) were seeking brides in the Pannonian basin...


the goths stayed in italy, slovenia and dalmatia for over 200 years.............we expect gothic words in these areas

gyms
22-09-14, 09:36
For me it is interesting the link between Thracians and Balto-Slavic peoples, because there are reputable scientists who find closeness between Thracian and Balto-Slavic.

According to haplogroups Serbs (as South Slavic people) are similar to Romanians, but and Romanians spoke one version of Thracian language (they were Dacians) before they romanized and received Latin.

There are scientists who say that language of Slavic people in the South of Europe (Serbian/Bulgarian) was basis for North (East and West) Slavic people, and not vice versa.

Of course, certainly need more research about Thracian and Balto-Slavic.

Also, scientists should determine exactly haplogroups of Thracians (whether I2a, R1a, E-V13, J2, etc ...).

Little is known for certain about the Thracian language, since no phrase beyond a few words in length has been satisfactorily deciphered, and the sounder decipherments given for the shorter phrases may not be completely accurate. Some of the longer inscriptions may indeed be Thracian in origin but they may not reflect actual Thracian language sentences, but rather jumbles of names or magical formulas.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language#cite_note-5)

Thraco-Dacian in turn has been hypothesized as forming a branch of Indo-European along with either Albanian[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)], Baltic,[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language#cite_note-14) or Greco-Macedonian[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]. No definite evidence has yet been found that demonstrates that Thracian or Daco-Thracian belonged on the same branch as Albanian or Baltic or Balto-Slavic or Greco-Macedonian or Phrygian or any other IE branch. For this reason textbooks still treat Thracian as its own branch of Indo-European, or as a Daco-Thracian/Thraco-Dacian branch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

Garrick
22-09-14, 16:15
Little is known for certain about the Thracian language, since no phrase beyond a few words in length has been satisfactorily deciphered, and the sounder decipherments given for the shorter phrases may not be completely accurate. Some of the longer inscriptions may indeed be Thracian in origin but they may not reflect actual Thracian language sentences, but rather jumbles of names or magical formulas.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language#cite_note-5)

Thraco-Dacian in turn has been hypothesized as forming a branch of Indo-European along with either Albanian[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)], Baltic,[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language#cite_note-14) or Greco-Macedonian[citation needed (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Citation_needed)]. No definite evidence has yet been found that demonstrates that Thracian or Daco-Thracian belonged on the same branch as Albanian or Baltic or Balto-Slavic or Greco-Macedonian or Phrygian or any other IE branch. For this reason textbooks still treat Thracian as its own branch of Indo-European, or as a Daco-Thracian/Thraco-Dacian branch.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thracian_language

Generally I agree with you. Evidence is needed and strong facts.

It is interesting that there are scientific papers where researches find examples from which something can be done.

One scientific article :

Pavel Serafimov
New Reading of the Thracian Inscription on the Golden Ring from Ezerovo
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf

The most interesting part of text is from page 180 to 182
New interpretation

In Latin alphabet, Thracian Inscription (originally in Greek):

ROLISTENE AZ NERENEA TILTEANIS KOA RAZEA DO MEAN TI LEZI PTA MIHE RAZIL TA.

Inscription written 2.500 years ago.

For author (and me) it seems quite Slavic/South Slavic (Bulgarian, Serbian etc..., according to author Old Bulgarian is closest).

1.
Rolistene

It is Thracian personal name, Rolisten. In Slavic languages (Bulgarian, Serbian, Czech...) vocative has added e.
For example:
Ivan
Vocative: Ivane
Stanislav
Vocative: Stanislave
Etc.

2)
Az

It is as Old Slavic:
(j)azъ = I (English)

In Bulgarian is: Az (in Serbian is: Ja)

3)
NERENEA
Thracian female name

It is similar as Bulgarian name Neranza. In text there are more explanations.

4)
TILTEANIS
Thracian family name

TIL + TEANIS

a)


Bulgarian, tilište: human, person (Slavic: čeljade)



In Slavic languages there are words containing "tilište", for example: in Serbian: svetilište: sanctuary.

b)
Bulgarian name Tehan; Bulgarian and Serbian name: Dejan etc.

5)
KOA

Bulgarian/Serbian: koja (j as y in English), similar in another Slavic languages

Sanskrit: kah (Eng. who), etc.

6)
RAZEA

Bulgarian verb: reža (Serbian: rezati) (Eng. to cut, to carve)
Bulgarian none: rez (Serbian: rez, recka) (Eng. notch)
Etc., similar in another Slavic languages

Here is meaning in English: I make lines, I draw.

7)
DO

Bulgarian: Do, Serbian: Do and same or similar in another Slavic languages(Eng. beside, next)

8)
MEAN

Bulgarian: men, mene, me; Serbian: mene, me, and similar in another Slavic languages (Eng., me)

9)
TI

Bulgarian: ti, Serbian: ti, and same or similar in another Slavic languages (Eng. you)

10)
LEZI

Bulgarian: leži; Serbian: leži (imperativ: lezi), and similar in another Slavic languages (Eng. lay)


11)
PTA

Old Bulgarian: Bat; (Eng. Master)
Modern Bulgarian: Bate, Serbian: Bata (Eng. brother)

12)
MIHE

Slavic (general): moj (j as y in English) (Eng. my)

13)
RAZIL

Old Bulgarian: raziti sja; Serbian: razići se; Russian:razoitis; etc. (Eng. go away)
Root: Raz has a lot of words in Bulgarian, Serbian and another Slavic languages

14)
TA

Bulgarian: tuk, Serbian: tu, similar in another Slavic languages (Eng. here)

...
In English: Rolistene, me Nerenea Tilteanis (is the one) who wrote this: lay beside me
my master, (husband) released here (in the grave).

Author concludes:

"Thracian language was nothing more but arhaic Slavic language."

(Did he conclude this too early or no let everyone judges?)

arvistro
22-09-14, 22:28
Yes, too early for conclusions, but it is interesting topic. I googled up and found several interpretations. Must be great job to earn one's money by deciphering ancient texts...

Yetos
22-09-14, 23:59
@ Garrick,

Thracian language also Scotish Mac as Muca,
this does not mean that Scotish is Thracian,
Thracian vocabulary, at least from the little we find,
cause we did not even solve the Erzerovo ring,
is among Balt Celtic Greek and !!!!! Armenian
Slavic is another case, at least for me,the roll of Scoloti in Thracian lands,

LeBrok
23-09-14, 03:00
Generally I agree with you. Evidence is needed and strong facts.

It is interesting that there are scientific papers where researches find examples from which something can be done.

One scientific article :

Pavel Serafimov
New Reading of the Thracian Inscription on the Golden Ring from Ezerovo
http://www.korenine.si/zborniki/zbornik07/serafimov_ezer07.pdf

The most interesting part of text is from page 180 to 182
New interpretation

In Latin alphabet, Thracian Inscription (originally in Greek):

ROLISTENE AZ NERENEA TILTEANIS KOA RAZEA DO MEAN TI LEZI PTA MIHE RAZIL TA.

Inscription written 2.500 years ago.

For author (and me) it seems quite Slavic/South Slavic (Bulgarian, Serbian etc..., according to author Old Bulgarian is closest).

1.
Rolistene

It is Thracian personal name, Rolisten. In Slavic languages (Bulgarian, Serbian, Czech...) vocative has added e.
For example:
Ivan
Vocative: Ivane
Stanislav
Vocative: Stanislave
Etc.

2)
Az

It is as Old Slavic:
(j)azъ = I (English)

In Bulgarian is: Az (in Serbian is: Ja)

3)
NERENEA
Thracian female name

It is similar as Bulgarian name Neranza. In text there are more explanations.

4)
TILTEANIS
Thracian family name

TIL + TEANIS

a)


Bulgarian, tilište: human, person (Slavic: čeljade)



In Slavic languages there are words containing "tilište", for example: in Serbian: svetilište: sanctuary.

b)
Bulgarian name Tehan; Bulgarian and Serbian name: Dejan etc.

5)
KOA

Bulgarian/Serbian: koja (j as y in English), similar in another Slavic languages

Sanskrit: kah (Eng. who), etc.

6)
RAZEA

Bulgarian verb: reža (Serbian: rezati) (Eng. to cut, to carve)
Bulgarian none: rez (Serbian: rez, recka) (Eng. notch)
Etc., similar in another Slavic languages

Here is meaning in English: I make lines, I draw.

7)
DO

Bulgarian: Do, Serbian: Do and same or similar in another Slavic languages(Eng. beside, next)

8)
MEAN

Bulgarian: men, mene, me; Serbian: mene, me, and similar in another Slavic languages (Eng., me)

9)
TI

Bulgarian: ti, Serbian: ti, and same or similar in another Slavic languages (Eng. you)

10)
LEZI

Bulgarian: leži; Serbian: leži (imperativ: lezi), and similar in another Slavic languages (Eng. lay)


11)
PTA

Old Bulgarian: Bat; (Eng. Master)
Modern Bulgarian: Bate, Serbian: Bata (Eng. brother)

12)
MIHE

Slavic (general): moj (j as y in English) (Eng. my)

13)
RAZIL

Old Bulgarian: raziti sja; Serbian: razići se; Russian:razoitis; etc. (Eng. go away)
Root: Raz has a lot of words in Bulgarian, Serbian and another Slavic languages

14)
TA

Bulgarian: tuk, Serbian: tu, similar in another Slavic languages (Eng. here)

...
In English: Rolistene, me Nerenea Tilteanis (is the one) who wrote this: lay beside me
my master, (husband) released here (in the grave).

Author concludes:

"Thracian language was nothing more but arhaic Slavic language."

(Did he conclude this too early or no let everyone judges?)

If this translation is correct it seems baring huge similarity to slavic. Thracian might have been an offshoot of Balto-Slavic family. Surely it was located not to far away.

Tomenable
05-11-14, 21:22
My idea about the origin of Slavs - described first in this link (in most recent post I posted a map):

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic?p=443594&viewfull=1#post443594


Here is the first version of my hypothesis on the ethnogenesis of Slavs (I also posted it on one Polish history forum, together with more extensive description - but I described it in Polish so I need time to translate - but I mostly mentioned this in this thread):

Direct link to map (its a "working" version, it took me 10 minutes to make it): http://s29.postimg.org/kusjgwefb/Slavic_Ethnogenesis.png

http://s29.postimg.org/kusjgwefb/Slavic_Ethnogenesis.png

Since N1c did not participate (in large amounts) in ethnogenesis of Slavs, I assumed that only north-eastern Balts of forest zone cultures had large amounts of it. Dark green is the farthest extent of Lusatian culture; light green - extent of the Late Lusatian culture.

Of course haplogroups listed for each area are only dominant haplogroups.

For example, IMO Mesolithic survivors from the Pripyat Marshes had also some (but not that much) of I1 haplogroup, not just I2.

So other HGs could also be present there, but dominant ones were - IMO - M458 for "Lusatians", Z280 for "Balto-Slavs", etc.

I don't know what exactly could be the haplogroups of Old Prussians (West Balts), so I did not hypothesize this.

Read also my earlier posts in that thread (before the one with map), in which I explained some particular issues.

Including posts in which I posted diagrams showing that the Lusatian Culture area was depopulated (people emigrated east).

arvistro
05-11-14, 21:46
Sorry, I asked in Polish thread but let's keep discussion here, as it belongs here better.
So, what time period do those borders represent? And more Baltic question - Who lived in Latvia/Lithuania then?

Tomenable
05-11-14, 21:55
Who lived in Latvia/Lithuania then?

Two groups - 1) Balts slowly and gradually assimilating Non-Indo-European N1c people, 2) those N1c people.


So, what time period do those borders represent?

Roughly 6th - 3rd centuries BC (except for dark green border, which is rather for a bit earlier times).

arvistro
05-11-14, 22:27
I asked since it is mainstream that IE people arrived and settled for good in modern Latvia (South of Daugava) and Lithuania already 2000 BC. But ok, maybe those were some other IE folk z282*, the same haplos that are big in Karelians for example.
For the record I also believe Balts got N1C1 from Norse varyags after 500 AD. But ok, that is me and time will tell.

Also I believe I2a around that time were Balto-Slavs just like Z280. But it is possible that I2-din hotspot indeed was around that place.

Tomenable
05-11-14, 22:51
For the record I also believe Balts got N1C1 from Norse varyags after 500 AD.

So 42% - 47% of Lithuanians and 38% of Latvians are descendants of "Norse varyags" according to you... :confused2:

No man, Vikings were not Napoleon's Grande Armee - they did not number hundreds of thousands of people, but just hundreds. :useless:

I noticed a funny trend in your posts (your and several other users), that you want to see Germanic influence everywhere.

It must be some huge inferiority complex that you are so desperately trying to connect yourselves to Germanic peoples.

Some users also have a funny tendency to claim that everyone who spoke a Germanic language was genetically Germanic (but on the other hand they claim the exact reverse thing for Slavs - according to them, most of Slavs were genetically just Slavicized Non-Slavs).

=====================================

BTW - Y-DNA haplogroups in Iceland (males in Iceland are in 3/4 descendants of Norse Scandinavians, the rest are mostly Celts):

43,7% R1b (U106 + Insular Celtic) + 22,4% R1a (mostly Z284) + 33,1% I1 + only 0,3% N1c

So even though now N1c is frequent among Germanic Scandinavians (and not just in Sweden!), it wasn't the case in the Viking Age.

The conclusion is simple - N1c people were assimilated (Germanized) by Germanic Scandinavians only during the Middle Ages.

This is why N1c generally did not travel with the Vikings to Iceland and to the British Isles during the Viking Age.

Rurik was genetically Non-Germanic and even if he was Germanized, then he was perhaps among the first who were Germanized.

Most of N1c in modern Swedes was absorbed by ancestors of Swedes after Rurik's times rather than before his times.

arvistro
06-11-14, 00:16
Oh, man. You are the one always bringing up that I want to see Baltic influence there, Germanic there, that other guys not you have inferiority complexes..., a mirror is nice and useful tool...

So, Rurik and Gediminas had common ancestor 2200 years ago. 200 BC. All N1C1 Balts (ok 90%, some are from other clades) are from that common ancestor. If Rurik (Scandinav N1C1) and Gediminas (Baltic N1C1) had common ancestor 2200 years ago, then all Balts had their common ancestor a bit later, most likely AD. One man. One man around current era was great grandfather for 40% (N1c1) Balts, a lot of men AD were great grandfathers for 40% (R1A) Balts. 1 to many proportion, that lead to 50/50. How?

one story
200 BC there was a man, who lived somewhere in Finland/North Sweden, who was ancestor of Baltic N1C1, Scandinavian/Rurik N1C1 and Spanish N1C1 (which was brought most likely by varyags there). Could he live in Baltics and be a West Balt? Let's hope so, would be a nice twist to the Rurik story :)
Somewhere later this guy from other side of Baltic Sea, actually his grandsons managed to get into Balts ruling class (as attested by Gediminas project, also Giedroits family).
Also Lithuanians lack East Asian admixture, which is present in Finns, Estonians, Swedes, etc, where N1C1 is present. It can be explained by small number of great grand dads mixing with locals for numerous generations.

Were those varyags? Were those Goths? Was he a (assimilated by Balts or not) Finno Ugric tribe chieftain from Baltics whose sons established clan in Sweden? I dont know :)

another story
There was a Finno-Ugric tribe that lived East side of Sea. It was ruled by great chief, who had many kids. Later part of kids went other side of Sea (ancestors of Rurik, Iberian clades), but most part of kids got Baltified and by this they became ruling elite of Balts. In the process their East Asian admixture dissappeared and their language was changed to Baltic :)

Tomenable
06-11-14, 11:12
I post the rest of it in "Poland" thread because here my post doesn't show up:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic/page10


Oh, man. You are the one always bringing up that I want to see Baltic influence there, Germanic there

Did you look in the mirror? No? So let's refresh your memory:

On 03-11-14, 07:34 you wrote:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic?p=443448&viewfull=1#post443448


Based on what I read from you, Slavic identity is strong in you. You tend to assign things to Slavs whenever in grey area

Tomenable
06-11-14, 11:17
OK, now it should work immediately:


after 500 AD.

According to historian Peter Heather Scandinavians had no technology for sea travel before the 8th century (700s) AD.


Rurik and Gediminas had common ancestor 2200 years ago. 200 BC.

Source please. I found different info here:

http://eng.molgen.org/viewtopic.php?f=24&t=844&start=40

N1c-VL29 - common ancestor 3700-4300 years ago, Volga region
N1c-L550 - common ancestor 3300-4000 years ago, east of Pskov
N1c-L1025 - common ancestor 2500-3000 years ago, pre-Baltic (south of the Baltic Sea)


a man, who lived somewhere in Finland/North Sweden,

Source for this location?


lso Lithuanians lack East Asian admixture, which is present in Finns, Estonians, Swedes, etc

East Asian admixture in these groups is from Sami people (Lapps) who came from East Siberia recently (shortly BC or in early CE).


I asked since it is mainstream that IE people arrived and settled for good in modern Latvia (South of Daugava) and Lithuania already 2000 BC.

Balts migrated to the Baltic coast in two waves - first were West Balts, and that was long BC.

Second wave were East Balts, and that migration was much later - rather in the CE (AD).


But ok, maybe those were some other IE folk

First you were arguing with me against the existence of extinct "Venedic" (or other name) IE language group in Poland, but now you have no problems with accepting that some unknown extinct IE group existed in Lithuania and Latvia since 2000 BC, before arrival of the Balts? Really double standards.


If Rurik (Scandinav N1C1) and Gediminas (Baltic N1C1) had common ancestor 2200 years ago, then all Balts had their common ancestor a bit later, most likely AD.

I don't get why this should be the case - why allegedly Balts should have their common ancestor later?

Another thing is that common ancestor of Rurik and Gediminas lived much earlier, not 2200 years ago (see above).

Estimates of common ancestor always have a large margin of error, by the way - it depends on how long was each generation.

And don't call Rurik's subclade Scandinav because you don't know where he was born (even if he lived in Scandinavia for some time), there are many possibilities. Maybe he was born south of the Baltic Sea, some Viking came and for example kidnapped him as a child because he and his wife couldn't have own biological children, transported him north of the Baltic Sea, where they raised him in their own culture. Etc., etc.

Another possibility is for example that the Vikings were a multi-ethnic group. Etc., etc.

Nestor's story in Primary Chronicle is that quarrelsome Russian tribes wanted to unite under a single political leadership, but they decided to invite Rurik to help them because they were unable to choose which of their own chiefs was going to be the supreme ruler.

According to Nestor, Rurik was elected to the throne by tribal leaders / tribal nobles of those federated tribes.

===============

I figured it out - only posts with links need moderator's approval.

OK (message to moderators): please do not approve those earlier duplicate posts.

Tomenable
06-11-14, 11:31
BTW - check when did common ancestor of R1a subclade L260 live. He lived later than your common Baltic N1c ancestor, IIRC.

And this single L260 guy is ancestor of ca. 6,6 million (ca. 17,2%) of people in Poland alone, not including these in other countries.

arvistro
06-11-14, 15:48
1. For 2200 years old common ancestor I took info from familytreedna Rurikid project description. You can google and check up the exact text.
They might be wrong in their statement though. And if they are, then I need to reevaluate situation.

arvistro
06-11-14, 16:09
I post the rest of it in "Poland" thread because here my post doesn't show up:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic/page10



Did you look in the mirror? No? So let's refresh your memory:

On 03-11-14, 07:34 you wrote:

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic?p=443448&viewfull=1#post443448
That was reply to your previous statement ;)

Tomenable
06-11-14, 19:34
As for Scandinavia:

Helena Malmström, "Ancient DNA Reveals Lack of Continuity between Neolithic Hunter-Gatherers and Contemporary Scandinavians":

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/mace-lab/publications/articles/2009/Malmstrom_CB09_PWC_Mod_Scan.pdf


Through analysis of DNA extracted from ancient Scandinavian human remains, we show that people of the Pitted Ware culture were not the direct ancestors of modern Scandinavians (including the Saami people of northern Scandinavia) but are more closely related to contemporary populations of the eastern Baltic region. Our findings support hypotheses arising from archaeological analyses that propose a Neolithic or post-Neolithic population replacement in Scandinavia.

The oldest sample of I1 haplogroup identified so far is from a Neolithic LBKT site in what is now Hungary. So maybe indeed it is not native to Scandinavia but came there from the south. But I think there are still so many gaps in data that these are all just more or less probable speculations. It is obvious anyway that I1 people lived outside of Scandinavia already in Neolithic times. But whether some people with this group lived also in Scandinavia at that time is another question.

arvistro
07-11-14, 12:54
Balts migrated to the Baltic coast in two waves - first were West Balts, and that was long BC.
Second wave were East Balts, and that migration was much later - rather in the CE (AD).
First you were arguing with me against the existence of extinct "Venedic" (or other name) IE language group in Poland, but now you have no problems with accepting that some unknown extinct IE group existed in Lithuania and Latvia since 2000 BC, before arrival of the Balts? Really double standards.
Would you be so kind as to point to my post where I disagreed to extinct IE languages or language group in Poland before using big words?
As a matter of fact I totally agree there might be a lot of now distinct local dialects/languages in Poland BC that are extinct now. Most likely they were border cases for Celtic/Germanic influence on West Baltic-ish (after all Z282 son Z284 got Germanized, M458 was in the middle between Z284 and West Baltic languages of Z280).
As to now distinct IEs before East Balts in Latvia/Lithuania. You can guess three times what their IE language would sound like if closest IE people to them were West Balts on the South West and East Balts on the South East.



I don't get why this should be the case - why allegedly Balts should have their common ancestor later?
Another thing is that common ancestor of Rurik and Gediminas lived much earlier, not 2200 years ago (see above).
L550+ is common for Rurik and Gediminas. L550+ has son L1025+ (that was thought to be South Baltic until recently), and L1025+ had son M2783+ (M2783+ is South Baltic, M2783- is FennoScandian). If L550 age is X, then M2783 age is less than X, or you disagree?
So Rurik's clade which is represented in Russian Princes and West Finland/North Sweden had son clade L1025+ that is represented same area as Rurik's clan, except not in Russian Princes. L1025 had son M2783 that is represented in all Baltic N1C1.

As to Rurik himself, he was Norsified most likely Quen. Apparently 40% of Balts and best known Baltic nobles (Gediminids/Jagellons, Giedroits, also most likely Radvilas) come from Quens clan that branched off from main Quens. How and when depends on age estimates for L550, L1025 and M2783. Your estimates were from 2013. Same forum has estimate from Michal around 2400 years for L550 dated August 2014, he said it might also get older subject to new findings. But it is still work in progress, they are cross comparing and working to get better results.
Anyway 500 BC Baltic ancestor M2783 most likely was not born yet. According even your estimates his dad - not literally dad - the very first L1025* (which is now found in Fenno Scandia) was dated 500-1000 BC. I am quite confident the very first M2783 did not speak Baltic either. It took time for this lad to establish his clan which was then absorbed by Balts.

Tomenable
07-11-14, 15:20
Z284 did not get Germanized, because it was the original Proto-Germanic branch.

Check what I wrote here because you, like Sile, also don't grasp ethnogenesis:

================

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/29632-Poland-more-Germanic-or-Slavic?p=443723&viewfull=1#post443723

"Sile you totally do not understand how ethnogenesis works and what it is.

All major haplogroups are older than any of modern European ethnic groups.

But if R1a M458 is Lugian, Z280 is Baltic and I2a is Baltic then Poles are mostly Germano-Baltic.*

How silly (or sile?) such claim is I don't need to explain.

*Arvistro claimed that Z280 and I2a are Baltic.

BTW - check this discussion on another forum, especially posts of Niklot and Authun:

R1a and R1b migrated to Europe shortly after the end of the Stone Age.They are older than Balts, Slavs, Germanics, etc.- everyone:"

http://historum.com/european-history/2379-brits-more-german-celtic-47.html#post1986613?postcount=468

http://s15.postimg.org/twljn4m4b/HGs_Chart.png

stoningbull54
09-05-17, 22:16
Hey everyone I can give you an answer on the difference among slavic people. Y-dna is not a good candidate for the comparison as it is a single chromosomal comparison. I did the ancestry dna test and my russian friend also did it. Here are the Ancestry results from the Russian sample:

- 97% Eastern European
-3% Baltic

Now here is my Serbian sample:

- 62% Eastern European
-30% Italian/Greek
-4% European Jewish
-4% Caucasian

From the autosomal comparison, we can infer that Serbs and Russians share 2/3 of their autosomal DNA. As such, from the differences we can say that Serbs are 2/3 slavic and 1/3 indigenous Balkan. Here are the results of the K15 comparison:

Russian


Population





North_Sea

19.14



Atlantic

17.12



Baltic

34.94



Eastern_Euro

17.87



West_Med

3.87



West_Asian

3.75



East_Med

-



Red_Sea

0.93



South_Asian

0.72



Southeast_Asian

-



Siberian

1.06



Amerindian

-



Oceanian

0.59



Northeast_African

-



Sub-Saharan

-




Serbian


Population





North_Sea

15.95



Atlantic

12.28



Baltic

19.92



Eastern_Euro

12.74



West_Med

12.33



West_Asian

10.21



East_Med

13.65



Red_Sea

2.93



South_Asian

-



Southeast_Asian

-



Siberian

-



Amerindian

-



Oceanian

-



Northeast_African

-



Sub-Saharan

-




We see that the "Baltic" component is the largest in both cases followed by North Sea and Eastern European. However the Serbian sample has a significant Mediterranean admixture. From this we can infer that the majority of Serbian genetic material is indeed slavic but contains a significant contribution from the local people of the Balkans.

Daemon2017
15-07-17, 14:00
It is not right to regard the Slavs separately from the Balts: they are halves of a single whole.

voloh
11-05-19, 17:48
https://hrcak.srce.hr/164142

here you can download a paper about the ethnogenesis of the Slavs, there is a summary in english at the end.

11019

the gray area on this map shows an area which is today Slavic, but the oldest toponyms, such as names of rivers, lakes etc. seem to be of Baltic origin. it has an overlap with archaeological cultures Dnieper-Dvina, Milograd etc. it's modern day Belarus and spreads into Ukraine and Russia a little bit. So the original population of that area were some type of proto-Balts according to the author, not Slavs. Which leaves Poland and eastern Germany as the homeland of the Slavs, and the Germanic homeland was Scandinavia and western Germany. Slavs migrated from Poland into the Belarus area around 3rd century AD and started assimilating these Balts.

according to this r1a-m458 and maybe i2a? could be the markers of Slavic migrations and r1a-z280 could be a trace of the Balts.

Dibran
09-06-19, 23:25
https://hrcak.srce.hr/164142

here you can download a paper about the ethnogenesis of the Slavs, there is a summary in english at the end.

11019

the gray area on this map shows an area which is today Slavic, but the oldest toponyms, such as names of rivers, lakes etc. seem to be of Baltic origin. it has an overlap with archaeological cultures Dnieper-Dvina, Milograd etc. it's modern day Belarus and spreads into Ukraine and Russia a little bit. So the original population of that area were some type of proto-Balts according to the author, not Slavs. Which leaves Poland and eastern Germany as the homeland of the Slavs, and the Germanic homeland was Scandinavia and western Germany. Slavs migrated from Poland into the Belarus area around 3rd century AD and started assimilating these Balts.

according to this r1a-m458 and maybe i2a? could be the markers of Slavic migrations and r1a-z280 could be a trace of the Balts.

z280 is just as Slavic as the rest. If not Moreso. One of the more successful lineage that make up the bunch. Most of south Slavic R1a, outside of Bulgarians and Macedonians is predominantly Z280.