who were Slavic people?

how yes no 2

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western linear pottery - Dniester and Danube spread

800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif



early Slavs - 500 AD - Dniester and Danube spread

Origins_500A.png



Dniester
dniester.jpg


Dnieper
dnieper.jpg



Don
don.jpg



historic distribution of Slavic languages - supposed core - along Dniester, on east up to Dnieper

Slavic_distribution_origin.png



Slavonic tribes 9th century - still far west from Don

588px-Muromian-map.png


I2a2 core - Dniester and Danube spread, on east up up to Dnieper

Haplogroup_I2a.gif



R1a core - Don spread

R1A_map.jpg
 
let's look at south Slavs to see whether they brought more R1a or I2a2
south Slavs

area_________________I2a2______R1a
Croatia -mainland______32.4%____34.3%
Serbia_______________29.2%____15.93%
Bosnia_______________52.2%____24.6%
Herzegovina__________63.83%___12.06%
Kosovo (Albanians)______2.65%____4.42%
Macedonians__________29.11%___15.19%

Herzegovina is place where Serbs initally settled
nearby Dalmatia is where Croats initially settled
those are areas with highest I2a2

common for all south Slavs is I2a2, while R1a varies a lot...

http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/22/10/1964/F2.large.jpg


Serbia and Montenegro
haplogroup____Serbia____Montenegro
I1_____________7.8%_____6.2%
I2b1___________1.67%___1.73%
I2a2 __________38.5% ___29.2%
E1b1b _________ 17.3%___27.0%
R1a____________14.5%____7.4%
R1b____________ 4.5%____9.4%
J1______________0.6% ___0.5%
J2a ____________3.3%____4.7%
J2b ____________1.7% ___4.5%
G2a____________2.2%____2.5%
N ______________3.3% ___1.5%
Q _____________1.7%____2.0%
H______________2.2% ___1.5%
L_______________0.6%____1.2%
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.21235/suppinfo

very Slavic Montenegro has as high as 7.4% R1a
while nearby non-Slavic Albanians of Macedonia have 12.6%


FYRM
http://www.bjmg.edu.mk/UploadedImages/pdf/11-18.pdf
sample size was 211 ethnic Macedonians, 111 ethnic Albanians from Macedonia, and 21 others (Turks, Roma, Vlachs, Serbs ...)
_______________Macedonians__Albanians__other___tot al
E1b1b1a-M78_________15.6______28.8____14.3____19.8
E1b1b1b-M81 _________–_________1.8______– ____0.6
E1b1b1c1-M34________2.4________1.8______ –____2.0
G-M201______________3.8________2.7______4.8___3.5
H-M69_______________1.4________1.8_____14.3___2.3
1*(xI1,I2a,I2b1)-M170 __–_________1.8_____4.8___0.9
I1-M253______________1.9________6.3_____–_____3,2
I2a-P37b_____________27.5_______1.8_____–_____17.5
I2b1-M223____________1.9________1.8____4.8____2.0
J*(xJ1a,J2)-12f2_______3.3________1.8_____–_____2.6
J2*(xJ2a4b,J2b)-M172__4.7________2.7_____9.5____4.4
J2a4b-M67____________2.8________2.7_____9.5____3.2
J2b2-M241____________5.2________13.5____4.8____7.9
L-M22________________0.5_________–______–_____0. 3
N1c-Tat______________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
P*(xR1)-92R7__________0.5_________–_____4.8____0.6
R1*-M173_____________0.5_________–______–_____0.3
R1a1-SRY1532_________14.2_______12.6____4.8____13.1
R1b1-P25_____________11.4_______18.0____23.8___14.3
T-M70________________1.9_________–_______–____1. 2
-----------------------------------------------------------
TOTAL people__________211________111 ____21____343

In FYRM, R1a is roughly the same in non-Slavic Albanians and Slavic Macedonians, while I2a2 is quite different!


Greece

data.jpg


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

Note R1a much larger among Greek Macedonians and on Crete than in any nearby south Slavic people
and that I peaks in Serrai (also known as Serres) which is from what I figured out area where in ancient Greece Seres (same as Serians) people dwellt and which was also the capital of medieval kingdom of Serb tsar Dusan
 
now pay attention to core of Slavs around Dniester (and up to Dnieper on east and Pripyat on north, and Vistula on west), and to directions of spread to northwest, north, and northeast from the core

Origins_500A.png


location and directions of spread are very clearly seen in I2a2

Haplogroup_I2a.gif



but not in R1a whose core is around Don which is area that Slavic people still didnot settle in 9th century...

R1A_map.jpg
 
thus, it is obvious from previous posts that I2a2 is much better suited to be marker of original Slavic people than R1a

in my current opinion R1a Slavic people largely origin from ancient Hurians/Iranians/Oghur related people (Oghur related people include Bulgars, Hunnic, Avar, Khazar, perhaps Magyar...), while I2a2 Slavic people largely origin from original Slavs and those origin from western linear pottery culture, and from later Serians, Cimmerians (perhaps same as Serians?), Thracians and Veneti...

western linear pottery
800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif


Thraco-Cimmerians
Thraco-Cimmerian.png


early Slavs
Origins_500A.png


I2a
Haplogroup_I2a.gif



R1a is to be associated with steppe Kurgan and Dnieper-Don cultures and later Scythians, Sarmatians, Avars, Oghurs...

Dnieper-Don
800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif


Scythia-Parthia_100_BC.png


according to manuscript of Bavarian geographer, state of Zeruiani (Serians/Serbs) was so big that all Slavic people origin from it....
19th century Slovak scientist Pavel Shafarik was based on studying historic data convinced that all Slavic people origin from Serbs and that Serbs was tribal name originally used by all Slavic people

if we look back at location for core of R1a, people who lived in core R1a area are Scythians, Sarmatians, Oghurs, Hunni, Bulgars, Khazars, Magyars...

or in fact mostly speakers of Iranian and Oghur languages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oghur_languages

in south Slavs R1a peaks in Croats

historian J.B. Bury has no doubt that Croatian legend of origin is same as the one of Bulgarians and is about same Hunnic nation to which related tribes of Bulgars, Cotrigurs and Onogundurs belonged to...

http://books.google.com/books?id=wD...q=Tuga Buga Bury&pg=PA275#v=onepage&q&f=false

Turkish historian Osman Karatay also speaks of turkish origin of proto-Croats and identifies white-Croats with white-Ogurs
http://books.google.com/books?id=h_...y&pg=PA73#v=onepage&q=Croats J.B.Bury&f=false

in fact, Oghur ( = Og + Hur) and H(u)rvat ( = Hur + vat) tribal names might both easily derive from same "Hur" basis as in Hurians..

note also: ak (turkic white = west) + Hur = AkHur = Oghur = west/white Hurians = white/west Croats
(white is color used to denote west in steppe cultures)

worth nothing is that among R1a there is also M458 branch that is present in Europe (along with other R1a branches) but rare in Asia. Therefore, this branch is considered marker of Slavic people... (although it is typically only around half of R1a in Czech, Poles, Slovaks..)
In Croatia however, out of 26.9% R1a only 2.8% is M458

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/full/ejhg2009194a.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf

Although Magyars are not speakers of non-IE Oghur but of Ugro-Finnic non-IE lanuages, another word used for Magyars/Hungarians in Slavic countries is Ugri, which is same tribal name as Oghur... and looking at R1a spread it is clear that proto-Magyars must have been non-IE speaking R1a people...

in Hungary 4.4% out of 20,4% is M458
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/full/ejhg2009194a.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf

so, who says Hunnic/Avar related nations has disappeared from Europe....

possible relation of R1a to Turkic Oghur people also indicates why Scythian people are R1a while their culture reminds of Turkic people more than on Slavic people...

170px-Behistun.Inscript.Skunkha.jpg
349px-Scythian_Warriors.jpg
250px-MenWithDragons.jpg


Scythian way of dressing we see today e.g. in Turkic Balkars

rt_russia_101209_ssh.jpg


The Balkars (Karachay-Balkar: sg. таулу - tawlu, pl. таулула - tawlula) are a Turkic people of the Caucasus region, one the titular populations of Kabardino-Balkaria. Their Karachay-Balkar language is of the Ponto-Caspian subgroup of the Northwestern (Kypchak) group of Turkic languages.

The origins of the Balkar people have not yet been definitively established: various hypotheses have associated them with the Huns, the Khazars, the Bulgars, the Alans, the Zikhs, the Brukhs, the Kipchaks (Qïpchaqs, Polovtsians), the Vengrians, the Chekhs, the Mongol Tatars, the Crimean Tatars, and Turkicized Japhetic groups. Some contemporary scholars attribute their origin to a cultural conglomeration of northern Caucasian tribes with the Iranian-speaking Alans and with Turkish-speaking tribes, among which the most significant were probably the Black Bulgars and the Western Kipchaks. Elements of Balkar culture indicate a long association with the Near East, the Mediterranean, the rest of the Caucasus, and Russia. In the pre-Mongol period (before the thirteenth century) the Balkars were part of the Alan union of tribes, but after the Mongol invasion they retreated into the canyons of the central Caucasus.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkars

Balkars have 25.7% R1a which is significantly more than most south Slavs (with exception of Croats from Croatia) 2.2% of 25.7% of R1a in Balkars is M-458(thus 8.6% of their R1a is of European/Slavic origin) , which is very alike the ratio in Croats (2.8% out of 26.9% gives 10.4% of European/Slavic R1a in Croats)...

http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/full/ejhg2009194a.html
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v18/n4/extref/ejhg2009194x4.pdf

Unfortunately, there is no data for Bulgars, but I would expect similarly low share of M-458 as in Balkars and Croats because tribal name Balkars is obviously same as Bulgars, and legend of origin of Bulgars and Croats is according to historian Bury identical one...

while Croats are reach in R1a and reach in non-Slavic R1a (only 10.4% is M458 compared to up to 50% in Poles, Czechs and Slovaks)

Serbs are poor in R1a but have significantly higher ratio of Slavic R1a marker M458

4.8% M-458 out of 13.3% R1a in Bosnian Serbs (thus 36% of their R1a is Slavic marker M458)
3.5% M-458 out of 15.9% R1a in Serbia Serbs (thus 22% of their R1a is Slavic marker M458)

there is another big difference in non-Slavic R1a of Croats and non-Slavic R1a of Serbs...
the one in Serbs is according to Klyosov ancient old - much older than the rest of Euroasia (without south Siberia) taken together, while the one in Croats is not older than in the rest of Euroasia...

evidence has been obtained that the oldest R1a1 lived circa 20,000 years before the present (ybp) in South Siberia. There are two sets of data and these provide ages of 21,000±3,000 ybp and 19,625±2,800 ybp, calculated by two different methods, and 11,650±1,550 years ago appeared in the
Balkans (Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia, Macedonia). (c) Except the South Siberian and Balkans populations, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4750 years ago (the "youngest" in Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the "oldest" in Russia (4750±500 ybp) and Germany (4,700±520 ybp),
http://www.jogg.info/52/files/Klyosov2.pdf
 
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actually, I mention Thracians above
but Thracians are probably not related people

by comparing vocabularies of Slavic with preserved Illyrian and Thracian words, Illyrian language must have been much closer to proto-Slavic than Thracian...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367548#post367548

this make sense as Slavic people are claimed to be of Venetic origin, and Veneti are in general considered to be somewhat related to Illyrians...


in the land of Scythia to the westward dwells, first of all, the race of the Gepidae, surrounded by great and famous rivers. For the Tisia flows through it on the north and northwest, and on the southwest is the great Danube. On the east it is cut by the Flutausis, a swiftly eddying stream that sweeps whirling into the Ister's waters. (34) Within these rivers lies Dacia, encircled by the lofty Alps as by a crown. Near their left ridge, which inclines toward the north, and beginning at the source of the Vistula, the populous race of the Venethi dwell, occupying a great expanse of land. Though their names are now dispersed amid various clans and places, yet they are chiefly called Sclaveni and Antes. (35) The abode of the Sclaveni extends from the city of Noviodunum and the lake called Mursianus to the Danaster, and northward as far as the Vistula. They have swamps and forests for their cities. The Antes, who are the bravest of these peoples dwelling in the curve of the sea of Pontus, spread from the Danaster to the Danaper, rivers that are many days' journey apart. (36) But on the shore of Ocean, where the floods of the river Vistula empty from three mouths, the Vidivarii dwell, a people gathered out of various tribes. Beyond them the Aesti, a subject race, likewise hold the shore of Ocean.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

we also have Russian primary chronicle that relates early Slavs with people living around Danube...
After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.
Over a long period the Slavs settled beside the Danube, where the Hungarian and Bulgarian lands now lie. From among these Slavs, parties scattered throughout the country and were known by appropriate names, according to the places where they settled. Thus some came and settled by the river Morava, and were named Moravians, while others were called Czechs. Among these same Slavs are included the White Croats, the Serbs, and the Carinthians. For when the Vlakhs attacked the Danubian Slavs, settled among them, and did them violence, the latter came and
made their homes by the Vistula, and were then called Lyakhs.
Of these same Lyakhs some were called Polyanians, some Lutichians, some Mazovians, and still others Pomorians. Certain Slavs settled also on the Dnipro, and were likewise called Polyanians. Still others were named Derevlians, because they lived in the forests. Some also lived between the Pripet' and the Dvina,
and were known as Dregovichians. Other tribes resided along the Dvina and were called Polotians on account of a small stream called the Polota, which flows into the Dvina. It was from this same stream that they were named Polotians. The Slavs also dwelt about Lake Il'men', and were known there by their characteristic name. They built a city which they called Novgorod.
Still others had their homes along the Desna, the Sem', and the Sula, and were called Severians. Thus the Slavic race was divided, and its language was known as Slavic

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf
Russian primary chronicle is written in year 1113. In that time Bulgaria was around Danube till area of today Voivodina, and Voivodina was Hungary.... so, description of Bulgarian and Hungarian lands around Danube in fact is about whole lower flow of Danube from Hungary to Black sea....
this implies Thracian + Scordisci + Pannonians are proto-Slavs....

however, vocabulary of Thracian is foreign to Slavic, and Scordisci are supposed to be Celtic people...

actually, Thrace is not along Danube, Moesia is!!!
 
If Russian primary chronicle speaks truth then proto-Slavic people are not Thracians but in fact Moesi/Triballi and perhaps Dacians and Pannonians as nations that live along Danube, and Venetic people as people who Russian primary chronicle identifies with Noricans

250px-Triballi_territory.jpg


The large number of Dacian/Moesian davae (town names end in '-dava' or '-deva') across entire Moesia, parts of Thrace and Dalmatia, indicates a much closer linguistic affinity between Dacian and Moesian languages, than between Moesian and Thracian, hinting to a much closer connection between Dacians and Moesians. The distinctly Thracian -para and -bria endings for town names are mostly present south of Moesia, making Balkan Mountains (Haemus Mons), the linguistic border between Daco-Moesian and Thracian languages and cultures.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moesi

town names ending in -dava we can attest in Slavic name for fortress tvrdjava = tvrd (hard /rough /solid) + dava

interesting is that -dava is used in enitre Moesia, parts of Thrace (that would be north Thrace), but also in Dalmatia!!!

now, Austrian sources did use word Illyrians for Serbs...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serbs#Name_and_etymology

my opinion is that this was not about Illyrians proper but about people of Roman province of Illyria that were according to Strabo Pannonians and Veneti... Illyrians proper lived more or less in what is now Albania and part of Montenegro...

worth nothing is that some Byzantine sources use word Tribali for Serbs

The term "Triballians" (in Greek or Latin) appears frequently in byzantine and other european writers of the middle ages, referring to contemporary events of their time [12][13][14]. Some of these authors explain clearly that "Triballian" is synonym to "Serbian". For example, D. Chalkondyles (1423-1511), referring to an islamized christian noble: "... This Mahmud, son of Michael, is Triballian, which means Serbian, by his mother, and Greek by his father."[15]. Also, Niketas Choniates (or Acominatus, 1155-1215 or-16) in his history about Emperor Ioannes Komnenos: "... Shortly after this, he campaigned against the nation of Triballians (whom someone may call Serbians as well) ..."[16].
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi
 
there are attempts to reconstruct Dacian vocabulary

The Dacian language is poorly documented. Unlike for ancient Thracian, or Phrygian, there are no surviving inscriptions in the language.[citation needed] In ancient literary sources, the Dacian names for a number of medicinal plants and herbs survive in ancient texts.[3][4] that includes about 60 plants names with Dioscorides [5]. Some 100 Daco-Moesian placenames are documented and some 20 personal names.[citation needed][dubious – discuss]. Dacian language is also known through several hundred proper names [6], [7], about 900 toponyms [7], and one short inscription[6] [5].
....
Both Georgiev and Duridanov use the comparative linguistic method to decipher ancient Thracian and Dacian names, respectively.
Georgiev argues that one can reliably decipher the meaning of an ancient place-name in an unknown language by comparing it to its successor-names and to cognate place-names and words in other IE languages, both ancient and modern. Georgiev considers decipherment by analysis of root-words(Wurzeletymologien) to be "devoid of scientific value".[29] He gives several examples of his methodology, of which one is partly reproduced here:
The town and river (a tributary of the Danube) in eastern Romania called Cernavodă. In Slavic, the name means "black water". The same town in antiquity was known as Άξίοπα (Axiopa) or Άξιούπολις (Axioupolis) and its river as the Άξιος (Axios). The working assumption is, therefore, that Axiopa means "black water" in Dacian. According to the known rules of formation of IE composite words, this breaks down as axi = "black" and opa or upa = "water" in Dacian (the -polis element is ignored, as it is a Greek suffix meaning "city"). The assumption is then validated by examining cognate placenames. The axi element is validated by another Danube tributary called the Axios, which is today known as Crna reka ("black river") and by the older Greek name for the Black sea, Άξεινος πόντος (Axeinos pontos, later altered to the euphemism Euxeinos pontos = "Hospitable sea"). The opa/upa element is validated by the Lithuanian cognate upė ("water") an by the Romanian cognate apă ("water").[30] (N.B. This etymology was questioned by Russu: Axiopa, a name attested only in Procopius' De Aedificiis, may be a corrupt form of Axiopolis).[31]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language

some of reconstructed words


1) *aba, apa[14] water, river *ab- ("water", "river")

ok, this is about river names....
Slavic ending for river is often -ava

example in ex Yugoslavia Morava, Drava, Sava, Tamnava, Mlava....

thus, 1/1

2) *akmon[17] stone, rock


Slavic kamen = stone, rock

thus, 2/2

3)

*alda (noun),
*alta- (adj.)[21] swamp, waterlogged

I would say this is bad reconstruction as in Illyrian there is
alt = stream

Slavic liti = to flow

thus, 3/3



3/4 *alm- to flow, to stream RN Almus - no match
3/5 *amalas mistletoe PN Amlaidina - no match
3/6 *auras water RN Αύρας - no match
3/7 *axi- black PN Άξίοπα - no match
4/8 *baidas frightening, repulsive - bojati se (to be afraid)
4.5/9 *bal warrior bojnik / vojnik
5/10 *balas,*balos[24] strong [24] *bel ('strong')[24], - balast = carried weight

6/11 *balas white belo
7/12 *berza birch-tree breza
7/13 *bur, buris[28]
7/14 *brukla[29] cranberry

7/15 *buta(s)[31] house, hut, dwelling

8/16 *čuk-[34] peak, summit *ḱu- ("sharp", "pike") čuka = peak

8.5/17 *daba character, nature dobar = good natured

9.5/18 *dava city, fortress tvrdjava = tvrd (hard/solid/strong) + dava = fortress
9.5 / 19 *degis burning, shining PRN Degis
9.5 / 20 *dina place, area, plain PN Amlai-dina
this is Celtic ending!!

10.5/21 *dikas brave or strong, mighty dika = person we are proud of

10.5/22 *dita(s)[38] light (noun), bright (adj.)
11.5 /23 *drasda thrush (bird) drozd
12/24 *dribas, *drigas[40] wild, restless dripac - punk, corrupt person

12/25 *duia[43] swamp or mist, drizzle

13/26 *dumas dark brown tama = darkness
13/27 *galtis sheet-ice, frost
13/28 *genukla[45] pasture, meadow
13/29 *geras[47] good (-natured), kind
13/30 *germas hot, warm PN Γέρμαζα
13/31 *gilus[49] deep
14/32 *gira (giria) forest or mountain gora = mountain
14/33 *granda[51] plank
14/34 *griva[53] river-bed or river-mouth
14/35 kaga[55] sacred, holy
15/36 *kalas catfish? karaš
15/37 *kapas hill, slope
16/38 *karpa to cut, stone [58] krpiti = to sew, to put together
17/39 *karsa cave kras = carst
18/40 *katas stall, animal enclosure, fish-basin katun = shepards temporary house in hills
18/41 *keda chair, stool
19/42 *kerba swampy ground čorba = thick soup
19/43 *kerna bush
19/44 *kerta clearing in a wood
19/45 *kina dry place in a swamp
19/46 *klevas maple-tree PN Clevora
19/47 *krata swampy place or pile, heap
19/48 *kurta grove, glade
20/49 *lug- swamp, morass lug = grove
20/50 *maska pool, puddle
20/51 *medeka glade, small wood
20/52 *musas mould, moss
20/53 *nara(s) river, brook
20/54 *pala, *palma swamp, bog
21/55 *pil- to flow ploviti = to sail, to float
21/56 *preida pine-tree
21/57 *put- to swell, thicken
21/58 *ramus peaceful, restful - mir = peace
21/59 *rō(u)ka drizzle, fine rain
21/60 *rus- to flow
21/61 *san-apa confluence (of two rivers)
22/62 *sausas dry suvo = dry, suša = dry period
22/63 *sermas river, river-current
22/64 *skabas sharp, quick, lively
22/65 *skaudus painful, sad or powerful
22/66 *skuia fir-tree
22/67 *skumbras hill, down
23/68 *spirus fast, quick, rapid brzo
24/69 *stendas stiff, rigid, viscose stena =rock
24/70 *suka tear (ripped), gap
24/71 *suras salty
24/72 *taras chatterer, gossiper
25/73- *tauta people, nation, country četa = group of people (forming military unit)
25/74 *tiras bare, barren, desolate
26/75 *tut- blow, smoke duvati
26/76 *upa river
26/77 *urda stream, brook
26/78 *vaigas fast, rapid
27/79 *varpa whirlpool vir
27/80 *visas fertile, fruitful
28/81 *zalmo- fur, skin, shield šlem = helmet
28/82 *zelmas shoot (of a plant) zemlja = ground
28/83 *zud-as careful, precise
29/84 *zuras hot, shining zora = dawn
29/85 *zuv- fish

conclusion is that reconstructed Dacian words are much closer to proto-Slavic than Thracian words...

but still quite far away for continuity....
though we should keep in mind that this is reconstructed vocabulary....

but we do not really expect Dacians to be proto-Slavic
as Dacians map to earlier eastern linear pottery, while Slavic people map to earlier western linear pottery...
800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif


proto-Slavic would be Triballians in Moesia part of Danube flow, Pannonians in Pannonia and Veneti around Vistula and in Noricum... also Sarmatian Venedi (probably same as Antes) would be among Veneti

Origins_500A.png


all these would be dominantly I2a2 people, perhaps with M458 R1a admixture
 

Some more quick matches. I could find more if I’m more creative.

7/15 *buta(s)[31] house, hut, dwelling – buda, a shack

8/16 *čuk-[34] peak, summit *
u- ("sharp", "pike") čuka = peak – ciukac, to hit with a tip of a nife.

9.5 / 20 *dina place, area, plain PN Amlai-dina
this is Celtic ending!! - rodina


10.5/21 *dikas brave or strong, mighty dika = person we are proud of – dziki, wild

15/37 *kapas hill, slope – kopa, a heap

16/38 *karpa to cut, stone [58] krpiti = to sew, to put together – karb, groove.

19/46 *klevas maple-tree PN Clevora - klon

20/53 *nara(s) river, brook – many rivers in Poland contain derivatives of nara.

21/55 *pil- to flow ploviti = to sail, to float - plyn

21/57 *put- to swell, thicken - puchnac

21/59 *rō(u)ka drizzle, fine rain - mrzawka

26/75 *tut- blow, smoke duvati, - trutututu, pretending to play on a trumpet.

I agree that Dalmatian looks closer to Slavic than Thracian and Illyrian. It was probably as related as Baltic languages, other words as long neighboring regions, or languages that had split from same one few thousands years ago.
 
From this region the Huns, like a fruitful root of bravest races, sprouted into two hordes of people. Some of these are called Altziagiri, others Sabiri; and they have different dwelling places. The Altziagiri are near Cherson, where the avaricious traders bring in the goods of Asia. In summer they range the plains, their broad domains, wherever the pasturage for their cattle invites them, and betake themselves in winter beyond the Sea of Pontus. Now the Hunuguri are known to us from the fact that they trade in marten skins. But they have been cowed by their bolder neighbors.
http://people.ucalgary.ca/~vandersp/Courses/texts/jordgeti.html

now, Huns as bravest race... one of two Hunish people Sabiri, other Altziagiri...
alziagiri is coin word altzia+ Giri...Giri is possibly about Hurians...Altzia could be about place name or side of world in some language...

thus, Hunish are again Serian/Hurian pair, same as Celtic Scordisci / Helvetti, early Germanic Sciri/Hirri, late Germanic Scirians / Heruli, and last Slavic Serbs / Croats.... interestingly those tribe pairs are mentioned in different times... first Celtic pair, than Germanic pair, than Hunnish pair, than Slavic pair....
Hunish people ruled over Slavic...but late Germanic Scirians and Heruli coexist on same places where later Slavic Serbs and Croats appear......

Hunuguri = Hunish + Hurians

are known for trading with marten skin...
Croats are known to have traded with marten skin in ancient times...
their money is now called kuna = marten
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_kuna


now, let us remind ourselves of Seneca's mention of Serians

[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html

he Sabir people inhabited the Caspian Depression prior to the arrival of the Avars. They appear to have been a Turkic people, possibly of Hunnic origin. "The name Sabir has been linked by some scholars with the name Siberia (where it may have been an alternative name for the Ugrian-speaking Mansi/Vogul) and even with the far Eastern Hsien-pi".[1]


Near East in 500 AD, showing the Sabirs and neighboring peoples.
The Sabir lived predominantly in the Pontic steppe region bounded on the east by the Caspian Sea, on the west by the Black Sea and on the south by the Caucasus Mountains. Priscus mentions that the Sabir attacked the Saragur, Urog and Unogur tribes in 461 AD, forcing them across the Volga, as a result of having themselves been attacked by the "Avars". In 515 "they advertised their power in a huge raid south of the Caucasus, in which they attacked Iranian and Byzantine lands with scrupulous impartiality".[2] They eventually came into allegiance with Persia.
In 552 the Sabirs, previously allied with Sassanid Persia, switched their allegiance to the Byzantines and invaded the Caucasus. Soon afterwards, they were conquered first by the Avars and later by the Göktürks. By the 700s they largely vanish from the historical record; probably being assimilated into the Khazars and Bulgars.
The Byzantine document, De Administrando Imperio mentions that the Tourkoi (the Byzantine name for Magyars) were formerly known as Sabartoi asphaloi. This name is generally considered to mean "firm, reliable Sabir". However, Byzantine documents normally refer to Sabirs as Sabiroi.
Some modern historians speculate that a Sabir tribe or faction, called Suars, may have resettled in the Middle Volga region, where they later merged with Volga Bulgarians. Indeed, one of the foremost cities of Volga Bulgaria was called Suar or Suwar. Today, some Chuvash historians postulate that their nation is partially descended from Sabirs.[3]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabir_people

Hunish Sabirs or Sabiri are probably same people as Serboi of Ptolomei in Asian Sarmatica...
they are Serians who live in Caspian mountains unguarded from Sarmatians in Seneca's time...
neighbouring Hunnic Kutrigur, Utrigur and Onogur people are in my opinion all Hurian derived people... same as Croats are likely Hurian derived people...

800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_neighbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg


800px-NE_500ad.jpg


but there are in Seneca's time (1st century AD) also Serians/Seres who live in Europe around Danube...
and before them Serres people in ancient Greece upon mount Athos - mentioned by Aristotle as known for their longevity....

Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

from Serres who dwell upon mount Athos comes town Serres/Serai in Greek or Ser in Serbian
this town in Greece was medieval capital of Serb tsar Dusan and is distinguished from surrounding by high haplogroup I percentage

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serrai
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

state of Zeruiani is so big that all Slavic people come from it, says Bavarian geographer...


Serians of Asia include Serres who live in Serica (northwest China) and produce silk, as well as
arc from China (serica) to India,,,, Serians from this arc are very likely Pasthun Sarbans of today.....

Serians in 6th century Europe are probably Scirians in Bavaria and Sorabi north of them....
their neighbours are Heruli....Heruli is another tribal name derived from Hurian...
Scirians and Heruli regarding their positions could be ancestor of today Serbs and Croats as this is location that matches the one from which they came to Balkan as written in book De administrando imperio

http://books.google.com/books?id=3a...istrando imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

could it be that originally Serians are I2a2, and Hurians are R1a?

e.g. Heruls on map above match white Croatia and also hotspot of R1a in south Poland
note also lack of R1a in Caspian highlands where Sabirs/Serboi or Serians of Caspian highlands lived...

R1A_map.jpg


Serrai/Serres area is hotspot of I in Greece (36%) ....Scirians might be cause of I2a2 hotspots in Bohemia from which Serbs came to Balkan... I2a2 is present in area where used to live Sabirs/Serboi... Chuvash people claim descend from Sabirs...it would be interesting to see their genetics... hotspot of I2a in Kurds in Asia minor is perhaps due to Cimmerians as it matches their location and supposed settlement in Cappadocia...tribal name Kurds might have same origin as Serbs, Sabirs, Serboi, Sarbans, Sherdana (sea peoples - there is place named after them Serbonian bog/Serbonis/Sirbonis in Egypt)...

Haplogroup_I2a.gif
 
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and that I peaks in Serrai (also known as Serres) which is from what I figured out area where in ancient Greece Seres (same as Serians) people dwellt and which was also the capital of medieval kingdom of Serb tsar Dusan

Serres was capital of Dusan????????
comes from Sirris not serians an Anciennt Persian Godess, the older Pelasgic name of Godess Demeter
midlle eastern Godess, Remember Serres was the Boarder of Greeks and Persians
the Darnakes

as infact that I in Serres is connected with AGrinion, Agrianes Thracians etc

remember Paeon was son of Agrios, Endymion etc
Paeoni were Tracian, and Serres area and Syntike are considered Thracians,
if you can find a more Data mutation in Agrinion that could help you on who the thracians
(for me I people) were, comparing with Serres .

REad Herodotus E Siropaiones and Persians, Area Dari-naka (Darius Land)

http://www.darnakas.gr/darnakasonomasia.htm

and also find who were Trivoli people (trivoli is thorn plant) (Tribali of Dusan)
Besides Darnakochoria rea the virb eat is chlap-akias0 from Hleb-Hlap = Bread,
their dialect is very ancient and have mainly Greek-Aeolic but Thracian and Prsian words also plenty, and many unknown
they lived isolated marry only tribe members as pomaks do in Greece.
remember that Greek pomaks are genetically different that Bulgarian pomaks

as in Fact the Thracian name for Phylakai town is Surdi - Serdi (both mean guardians)
and town SerVia and next town is Gullea (Kulla - kale - Kelli) (fiortress)
surdi serdi curdi etc means guardians, Calla - Celli- means fortress that is known,

But for me it would be very interesting to find and compare Agrinion and east GR Makedonia I people (M-?? Dys etc)

besides Thracians in Gr Magnesia area Sesklo - Dimini before Pelasgians arrival had Linear pottery from 7000 Bc which means that pottery culture expand north in Danube as Thracians moved north,
remember Tharseis (thracians) is people that live that lived in Balkans and north before Javans (Yunans -Iayan - Pelasgic people)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sesklo

it is interesting the change from Linear to Cardium, from Thracian to Pelasgic as the fact that Europe was invaded from south to North and not from North to south as many claim

The culture of Sesklo is crucial in the expansion of Neolithic into Europe. Dating and research points to the influence of this culture to other Balcanic (Karanovo I-II and Starčevo-Körös) which seem to originate here, and will be these which will stimulate the birth of the important Danubian Neolithic current. Also, it is thought[citation needed] that the differentiated settlements of pre-Sesklo can be, at least partly, responsible for the origin of the Mediterranean Neolithic (Cardium pottery). So it can be said that, with some geographically isolated exceptions, European Neolithic seem to originate here: in the Thessalia of Sesklo


The "invasion theory" states that the Sesklo culture lasted more than one full millennium up until 5000 BC when it was violently conquered by people of the
Dimini culture. The Dimini culture in this theory is considered different from that found at Sesklo.

4800 Bc few centuries after Pelasgic invasion (est 5500 BC)

so I people were in Balkans much Before 7000 BC

it is obvius that Thracians +Pelasgic made Greek culture and language
and Thracians + celts make Illyricum culture
Thracians +baltic make Slavic language (old church slavonic)
and area of daci and Bulgaria Kept more the old Thracian, than Greece and Illyricum
the many attempts to put Greek to slavic languages has to do that is connected from ancienty,
that is because of Thracians, who for me were a proto-slavic language, and a proto Greek language
I gave many examples in many other posts
 
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Don't forget the core Western Slavs

How yes no:

The core Slavic population - in terms of language, culture, ethnic consciousness - are people of Poland, Czecho-Slovakia, Belorus and Western Ukraine. R1a is clearly a dominant Y-DNA there. I understand your points about South Slavs and I2a2 - and their descent from one of the ice age refuges. But it seems to me that it is an accepted historical fact that the original tribes speaking Slavic languages came from the northern Carpathian, Visla lowlands and east towards Belarus and Dnieper river.

I am also familiar with Safarik's writings in the 19th century. He speculated that the tribal name Srb (Serbian) was one of the original terms by which the Slavs self-identified. One of them, but not the only one. The others that he considered likely were: Czech, Lech, Polan, ... The term Srb is still very widespread among Slavic nations - there are Sorbs (Srbi) in south-eastern Germany, there are numerous proper names that use Srb, and the use of consonant "r" as a middle sound is quite typical of Slavic proper names (see Praha, Brno, Trnava, Trencin, ....).

But why would you overlook the strong R1a linkages to the original core groups of Slavs? It is in my view unlikely that I2a2 Slav speakers would manage to transfer the language to this - seemingly - much larger group in the area where Slavic tribes originated.
 
Slavic nations as we see them today are clearly I2a2 Dinaric +R1a1 mix. Ethnogenesis of Slavs were long process and various peoples were part of that.
It is clear that core Slavic homeland (Pripyat) is not only the highest freqency I2a2 region on the east, but also place where first and original Slavic hydronims appeared.
"Considering Ptolemy's Ouenedai and their location along the Baltic sea, a German linguist, Alexander M. Schenker, underlines that the vocabulary of the Slavic languages shows no evidence that the early Slavs were exposed to the sea. Proto-Slavic had no maritime terminology and even lacked a word for amber which was the most important item of export from the shores of the Baltic to the Mediterranean. In view of this, the very fact that Ptolemy refers to the Baltic as the Venedic Bay appears to rule out a possible identification of the Veneti of his times with the Slavs.[18]. Schenker's conclusion is supported by the fact that to the east of the Ouenedai, Ptolemy mentions two further tribes called Stauanoi and Souobenoi, both of which have been interpreted as possibly the oldest historical attestations of Slavs."
So there was Venedi (R1a1) on the northwestern direction from proto Slavs (I2a2). Synthesis of this two populations creeated a people of Slavs in the first centuries AD. Some of Slavic nations like Poles or Lusatian Serbs have more Venedic (R1a1) component, and others like Serbs(I2a2) more Slavic component. It is well known fact that western Slavs are known by the name Wends and south Slavs by the name Sklavenoi.
And about Antes, third group of Slavic peoples.
"The Tabula Peutingeriana, originating from the 4th century AD, separately mentions the Venedi on the northern bank of the Danube somewhat upstream of its mouth, and the Venadi Sarmatae along the Baltic coast."
So the Antes were probably some southern part of Venedi and closer to them (which means R1a1) than to Sklavenoi (South Slavs (I2a2)).
 
But why would you overlook the strong R1a linkages to the original core groups of Slavs? It is in my view unlikely that I2a2 Slav speakers would manage to transfer the language to this - seemingly - much larger group in the area where Slavic tribes originated.

I do not say there was no R1a at all in early Slavs....some of Slavic tribes were R1a dominant like Vislanes and Croats...

From the 1st century and possibly earlier, the Vistulans (also known as the Vislanes), were part of the Carpian Tribe, which got its name from the area that they lived in, which was beside the Carpathian Mountain Range. In the 9th century, Vistulans created a tribal state, with major centers in Kraków, Wiślica, Sandomierz, and Stradów.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vistulans

Vislanes are thus Carpi, which may be about Croats....

I claim I2a2 was dominant in early Slavs because it shows clear match with location and directions of spread of early Slavs....

R1a doesnot show such a correlation also because there were many other R1a people around

R1A_map.jpg


500 AD
800px-NE_500ad.jpg


700 AD
Origins_700.png


R1a hotspots match Vislanes (Carpi in origin), Croats (also Carpi in origin?), Balts, and Turkic Avars, Bulgars, Oghurs, Huns, Khazars...

my guess is that those are mostly Scythian people..... there are solid theories that relate proto-Croats with Bulgars and Oghur people...so even Croat R1a can easily be Scythian in origin...

Sarmatians do not fit in R1a because locations of Alans and in fact hole Asian Sarmatia seems to lack R1a...and their other area of influence is Ukraine that is I2a2 hotspot...

as for Venedi, I am convinced that they origin from Veneti and that Veneti were dominantly I2a2 people...some clues for this are I2a* found only in locations of Britanny Veneti and Adriatic Veneti....also in Capadocia bellow Paphlagonia (from where Eneti were expelled in times around Trojan wars due to their conquest with Cimmerians) is I2a island... this island of I2a2 is probably settlement of Cimmerians (as there are historical records indicating settlement of Cimmerians in Capadocia) and Cimmerians may easily be origin of later Sarmatians... which effectively means that Sarmatians and Veneti were from same stock... confirmation for this is that Antes are from same Veneti stock (their tribal name is clear derivation from Eneti) and also Sarmatians and fitting I2a2 hotspot... sure Venedi/Veneti/Antes had some R1a... but that is in my opinion from assimilated Scythians while core of early Slavs was Venetic I2a2 people
 
interesting thread regarding Slavic origin...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26233

btw. where Gomer/Cimmerians are on map showing world known to Hebrews is now I2a island in Asia minor
Gomer is son of Japhet and thought to be ancestor of Germanic people....this shows that name Germanic was originally applied to all haplogroup I people....
One of Gomer's sons is Riphat... map puts Riphat in Paphlagonia ...in location of Eneti.... now if Gomer were haplogroup I peoploe that match island of I2a now in Asia minor, what would be people who originate from Riphat the son of Gomer?

800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png

402px-Noahsworld_map.png

Haplogroup_I2a.gif

Besides, we know that early Slavs are of Veneti race (Jordanes) and that Slavs origin from Japhet (Russian primary chronicle)

note tribal name Rosch among Schytians... and how neither Rosch nor Scythians are marked as Japhet's line..... also Taurus that matches R1a spread in Asia minor is not marked as originating of any of 3 sons of Noah...thus, story of Noah's sons is probably related to people from IJ haplogroups... perhaps R1a and R1b lived in times of flood probably northern from middle east area where the story probably originated...

anyway, Taurus being not Japhet and also correlating with spread of R1a....
makes me wonder if Taurus is name related to Hurians? because Hurians are in my theory proto-Croats

The Hurro-Urartian languages are an extinct language family of the Ancient Near East, comprising only two known languages: Hurrian and Urartian, both of which were spoken in the Taurus mountains area.
Hurro-Urartian was ergative-agglutinative. It was neither related to the Semitic or Indo-European language families of the region.
Proponents of linguistic macrofamilies have grouped Hurro-Urartian as part of an "Alarodian" phylum, together with Northeast Caucasian and further as "Macro-Caucasian", but these theories are without support in mainstream linguistics.[1]
Hurrian was the language of the Hurrians (occasionally called "Hurrites"), a people who spread to northern Mesopotamia probably coming from the Caucasus starting from 2500 BC[citation needed], and whose apogee was the kingdom of Mitanni (1450–1270 BC). The language was probably extinct by 1000 BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurro-Urartian_languages

R1A_map.jpg



interesting question is whether Slavic language is originally language of some R1a people, some I2a2 people or some mix of the two....... I think it was language of I2a2 people but was passed to R1a people in distant past in area of Asia minor...

as for proto-Serbs..interesting clue is three-finger salute used by Serbs.... though this salute was reintroduced in recent times in 1990s it was inspired by picture from 19th century of famous painter Paja Jovanovic about gathering of people on which decision about uprising against Turks was made... so this salute might have longer history in Serbian tradition...

Novak%20Tri%20prsta.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta

a wild guess is that it might have originally been of same origin as this one related to Thracian/Phrygian God Sabazios... or Thracian horseman.....now, Thracian /Phrygian God...this is where I2a spread leads to from Eneti area of Paphlagonia and Cimmerian/Gomer area of Cappadocia...to Phrygia and Thrace....

bronze hand used in worship of Sabazios

200px-HandOfSabazius.JPG


Sabazios (Ancient Greek: Σαβάζιος) is the nomadic horseman and sky father god of the Phrygians and Thracians. In Indo-European languages, such as Phrygian, the -zios element in his name derives from dyeus, the common precursor of Latin deus ('god') and Greek Zeus. Though the Greeks interpreted Phrygian Sabazios[1] with both Zeus and Dionysus,[2] representations of him, even into Roman times, show him always on horseback, as a nomadic horseman god, wielding his characteristic staff of power.
...
It seems likely that the migrating Phrygians brought Sabazios with them when they settled in Anatolia in the early first millennium BCE, and that the god's origins are to be looked for in Macedonia and Thrace. The recently discovered ancient sanctuary of Perperikon in eastern Thrace is believed to be that of Sabazios. The Macedonians were also noted horsemen, horse-breeders and horse-worshippers up to the time of Philip II, whose name signifies "lover of horses".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

clearly, Sabazios is coin word... it is about Saba+ Zeus = Serb God or God of proto-Serbs?

also look at these words from Thracian dictionary

sabazias ‘free’ [Old-Bulg. svobod' ‘free’].
..
suras ‘strong, brave; a hero’ [Old-Ind. súra-h ‘a hero, a warrior’, Avest. súra- ‘brave, courageous; a hero’].
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/thra.htm

thus, freedom was always very important to Serbs...
btw. "slobodni" = free in Slavic thus Sloveni = slo(bodni) + veni
(Veni being Veneti/Venedi tribal name, also root word of Finish name for Russians - Venäläiset)


Much later, the Byzantine Greek encyclopedia, Sudas (10th century?), flatly states
"Sabazios... is the same as Dionysos. He acquired this form of address from the rite pertaining to him; for the barbarians call the bacchic cry 'sabazein'. Hence some of the Greeks too follow suit and call the cry 'sabasmos'; thereby Dionysos [becomes] Sabazios. They also used to call 'saboi' those places that had been dedicated to him and his Bacchantes... Demosthenes [in the speech] 'On Behalf of Ktesiphon' [mentions them]. Some say that Saboi is the term for those who are dedicated to Sabazios, that is to Dionysos, just as those [dedicated] to Bakkhos [are] Bakkhoi. They say that Sabazios and Dionysos are the same. Thus some also say that the Greeks call the Bakkhoi Saboi."[12]
...

More "rider god" steles are at the Burdur Museum, in Turkey. Under the Roman Emperor Gordian III the god on horseback appears on coins minted at Tlos, in neighboring Lycia, and at Istrus, in the province of Lower Moesia, between Thrace and the Danube. It is generally thought that the young emperor's grandfather came from an Anatolian family, because of his unusual cognomen, Gordianus.[4] The iconic image of the god or hero on horseback battling the chthonic serpent, on which his horse tramples, appears on Celtic votive columns, and with the coming of Christianity it was easily transformed into the image of Saint George and the Dragon, whose earliest known depictions are from tenth- and eleventh-century Cappadocia and eleventh-century Georgia and Armenia.[5]

now, sculpture of this horseman God are found among Celts, in Lycia and upper Moesia.....possible Lycia connection with proto-Serb I have indicated before ( http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=367056#post367056 )..... and modern Serbs were named Triballi by some Byzantine sources.. Celtic link is possible via Scordisci...as upper Moesia between Danube and Thrace is where Triballi and Scordisci are...... also this area of upper Moesia is area where we find culture of of Thraco-Cimmerians and not Thrace.....

so, I think that proto-Serbs were I2a Cimmerians and proto-Slavs was about wider term Venetic people...

again, these are location of Thraco-Cimmerian findings

Thraco-Cimmerian.png


and these are early Slavs

Origins_500A.png


now, look at this curiosity:

Among Serb opponents in the Yugoslav wars – Croats, Bosniaks and Albanians – the three-finger salute is usually perceived as provocation, especially when directed at them personally.[citation needed] In response, their forces used the V sign as a victory/defiance sign during the war.[citation needed]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tri_prsta

In Croatia, the V sign represents the World War II-era Nazi movement called the Ustase. Extending two fingers into the V sign resembles the letter U, for Ustase.
During the Yugoslav Wars, Croatian troops and paramilitary militia used the sign as a greeting or an informal salute or menacing gesture.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V_sign

what is V sign than bull horns, sign of Taurus people or Hurians/Hurites?
and why would extra finger be offensive?

lol, this is funny, what is 3-finger salute than bull (V sign) with big "phallus" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phallus) ... it's a way to say, perhaps you are bull as you show V sign, but I am real male bull...

why I got this idea? well, look again at thumb of 3-finger salute bronze hand used in worship of Sabazios... and why bull?

Seri and Huri are two mythical bulls...they represent Serians and Hurrians...this division gives much later Serbs and Croats, but I guess also Germanic Sciri and Hirri (later Heruli?)... perhaps also Cimbri and Helvetti... in Balkan Celtic/Thracian Scordisci/Serdi and Illyrian Autoriatae
Serians are I2a people (also I2a1 and I2ab), Hurians are R1a (there are other R1a people though)
Turkic Oghurs are just Ak (turkic for west) + Hur = west Hurians ...similarly Hunnogur mentioned by Jordanes are Hunnish Hurians...

The sacred bull of the Hattians, whose elaborate standards were found at Alaca Höyük alongside those of the sacred stag, survived in the Hurrian and Hittite mythologies as Seri and Hurri (Day and Night)—the bulls who carried the weather god Teshub on their backs or in his chariot, and grazed on the ruins of cities.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bull_(mythology)

look at this post for better explanation
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365278#post365278


let me take this 3 finger / 2 finger distinction to earlier times and see about possible earlier meanings.....

it was suggested that Sherdana are distinguished from related sea people with bull horn helmets as they have sign in the middle of bull horns...
example Sherdana (people after whom lake in Egypt is named Serbonian bog / Serbonis / Sirbonis)

seapeoples14.jpg


some related sea peoples probably Lukka (Lycian)
seapeoples17.jpg


this sign that Sherdana wear between bull horns could have initially been same in origin as sign carried by Isis...

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=365030#post365030

look at sign carried by Isis and compare it with the one of Sherdana

Egypt.IsisHorus.01.png


keep in mind that it is suggested that ancient Macedonians were also originally "horseman" or Sabazios worshipers... and that Sarapis is introduced as God with spread of empire of ancient Macedonians

Following the conquest of Egypt by Alexander the Great the worship of Isis spread throughout the Graeco-Roman world.[13]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isis


why?
because myth of Sabazios was matched to Oziris and to Hapis/Apis - bull deity....

thus, Serapis came to existance...

Serapis or Sarapis was a Graeco-Egyptian god. He was invented during the 3rd century BC at the orders of Ptolemy I of Egypt as a means to unify the Greeks and Egyptians in his realm. The god was depicted as Greek in appearance, but with Egyptian trappings, and combined iconography from a great many cults, signifying both abundance and resurrection. His cultus was spread as a matter of deliberate policy by the Ptolemaic kings, who also built a splendid Serapeum in Alexandria.
...
Under Ptolemy Soter, efforts were made to integrate Egyptian religion with that of their Hellenic rulers. Ptolemy's policy was to find a deity that should win the reverence alike of both groups, despite the curses of the Egyptian priests against the gods of the previous foreign rulers (i.e Set who was lauded by the Hyksos). Alexander the Great had attempted to use Amun for this purpose, but he was more prominent in Upper Egypt, and not as popular with those in Lower Egypt, where the Greeks had stronger influence. The Greeks had little respect for animal-headed figures, and so a Greek-style anthromorphic statue was chosen as the idol, and proclaimed as the equivalent of the highly popular Apis.[2] It was named Aser-hapi (i.e. Osiris-Apis), which became Serapis, and was said to be Osiris in full, rather than just his Ka (life force).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serapis

In Egyptian mythology, Apis or Hapis (alternatively spelled Hapi-ankh), was a bull-deity worshipped in the Memphis region.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apis_(Egyptian_mythology)

Osiris was the mythological father of the god Horus, whose conception is described in the Myth of Osiris and Isis, a central myth in ancient Egyptian belief. The myth described Osiris as having been killed by his brother Set who wanted Osiris' throne. Isis briefly brought Osiris back to life by use of a spell that she learned from her father. This spell gave her time to become pregnant by Osiris before he again died. Isis later gave birth to Horus. As such, since Horus was born after Osiris' resurrection, Horus became thought of as a representation of new beginnings and the vanquisher of the evil Set.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris
 
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Why Pripiat marshes?

Iapodos/ How Yes No:

The theory of Slavic origin described by you is in my view too complicated and large parts of it cannot be verified.

Why Pripiat marshes? I have never understood why would many people always try to put the mythical Slavic homeland in the marshy and inaccessible area of Pripiat that was either unpopulated or very thinly populated until very recently. It is much more likely that the Slavic languages and tribal consciousness were originally from a much larger - and more livable - area of north Carpatians, Visla and Bug river valleys and probably some surrounding areas. Roughly the territories of today's eastern Poland, western Ukraine, northern Slovakia, and parts of Belarus.

I agree that the original Slavic tribes lived inland. But there is a huge area in central-eastern Europe that was inhabited since the last ice age and is much more suitable for habitation. Pripyat marshes are not. Maybe some stragglers lived there (I2b,...), but it is not a likely homeland for any large tribal confederation. Unless, the original Slavs had supernatural procreation and assimilation powers, they had to come from a more suitable environment. And there were clearly more of them.

What you say is also counter-intuitive. Given the large number of Slavs in modern Europe (up to 35% of European population), and given that fhas been the case for over a millenium, it is unlikely that a large, populous group like that had originated in a small, remote, uninhabitable area. The word Venedi is very widespread - it just means "stranger" in archaic proto-IE (like Celtic). Sometimes an explanation for a term found in many different places is that it means something to the surrounding people, not that the people with that name - or similar name - travelled around and are the same.

Something similar is true about the term Srb (Serbian). Any Slavic speakers understands that Srb means something like "feisty, fighting, warrior, even angry", we still have a verb "srdit sa" that means "get angry, start fighting". So the term Srb can simply be a term for the warrior bands living among other less feisty neighbors. The term Pole is obvious: "field dwellers", Lech means is a tribal chief, Chech means people living in the mountains, Slovien means the ones speaking our langauge. It seems to me that the very generic term "Slovien" was originally a term that meant something like "our people, people like us", since they spoke same or similar languages. In other words "nashi" :), or like Suebi among Germans.

That explains the R1a1 dominance in the Slavic homeland. It is likely that I2a were simply a remainder of the natives who lived there pre-Slav expansion. And that includes the Pripiat marshes. You cannot have the R1a1 dominance in the core Slavic regions without Slavs being largely descended from R1a1 forebears. I can also tell you that a lot of the non-R1a1 people in the core Slavic region can easily trace themselves to numerous groups that have moved there in the last millenium (e.g. Germans, Roma, Vlachs, etc...). When you test remote areas that have been largely untouched, the % of R1a1 gets much larger in the core Slavic areas.
 
. I can also tell you that a lot of the non-R1a1 people in the core Slavic region can easily trace themselves to numerous groups that have moved there in the last millenium (e.g. Germans, Roma, Vlachs, etc...). When you test remote areas that have been largely untouched, the % of R1a1 gets much larger in the core Slavic areas.

perhaps that holds for Russia that R1a is there marker of Slavic spread....but not in south Balkan...

as I have shown on many indications in first few posts on this thread, Slavs in south Balkan are clearly distinguished from non-Slavs exclusively by I2a2
while R1a is much more common among some non-Slavic people than in some Slavic people....

perhaps, best way to look at origin of Slavic people of today is as combination of Cimmerian/Venetic I2a2 and Scythian/Hurian R1a
 
Perhaps not

"perhaps, best way to look at origin of Slavic people of today is as combination of Cimmerian/Venetic I2a2 and Scythian/Hurian R1a"

Well, perhaps not. I was never talking about Russia, it is a territory that was settled much later, so it doesn't belong in this discussion.

Regarding Balkans: Slavs were invaders there, possibly a relatively small group that moved in from the north and east. So making assumptions about the origin of Slavs based on what you read into Balkan DNA data, is at a minimum, unscientific.

You are creating a largely false and speculative history that is unlikely and unverifiable. A much more probable theory of the origin of Slavs is the obvious one in front of us: large ethnogenesis in the northern Carpathian region from IE groups (including sme Iranians based on linguistics), from indigeneous surviving I groups, and from layers of other tribes that had passed through that territory.

Unless there is some strange atavistic agenda lurking behind your theories, I don't understand what your theories are all about. But if you want to be upfront and convincing, use fewer maps (they are only partial data at this point), and word associations, and answer the historical points that I listed above.
 
first part taken from thread about Macedonia
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?p=368551#post368551

now about the bull

I mentioned that cause
Bolos
Bol
Bo
Bolinthros
same BOL

but muschar and telec
meaning that 1 is imported or fixed after
the most possible is that telec came with Slavic invasion to Thracian Bolo
and not the muschar wich is similar to moschos

actually, there is word Vol/Vo in Serbia
it is about ox

while bull is "bik"
it's about being male or not male bull
distinction between V sign and 3-finger salute
....

btw. key Slavic gods are Perun and Veles
Veles (Cyrillic: Велес; Polish: Weles;Czech: Veles; Old Russian and Old Church Slavonic: Велесъ) also known as Volos (Russian: Волосъ)? (listed as a Christian saint in Old Russian texts) is a major Slavic supernatural force of earth, waters and the underworld, associated with dragons, cattle, magic, musicians, wealth and trickery. He is the opponent of the Supreme thunder-god Perun, and the battle between two of them constitutes one of the most important myths of Slavic mythology.

Perun is in fact easily matched to Hurrian Teshub (same God as Zeus) as Teshub's name is in Hati Taru, and in Hititte/Luwian is Tarhun...

Teshub (also written Teshup or Tešup; cuneiform dIM) was the Hurrian god of sky and storm. He was derived from the Hattian Taru. His Hittite and Luwian name was Tarhun (with variant stem forms Tarhunt, Tarhuwant, Tarhunta), although this name is likely from the Proto-Indo-European Perkūnas[1] or the Hittite root *tarh- to defeat, conquer.[2][3][4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

In Norse polytheism, Thor (from Old Norse Þórr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder, lightning, storms, oak trees, strength, destruction, fertility, healing, and the protection of mankind. The cognate deity in wider Germanic mythology was known in Old English as Þunor and in Old High German Donar (runic þonar ᚦᛟᚾᚨᚱ), stemming from a Common Germanic *Þunraz (meaning "thunder").
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor

Similarity of Taru to Germanic Thor indicates that Hati (pre-Hetite people in Asia minor) spoke language alike to Germanic people...
Similarity of Luwian Tarhun to Slavic Perun means that Hittite and/or Luwian people spoke language alike to proto-Balto-Slavic....

Anyway, Teshubs key enemy is Illuyanka - dragon like being from underworld, thus same as Veles...

He is depicted holding a triple thunderbolt and a weapon, usually an axe (often double-headed) or mace. The sacred bull common throughout Anatolia was his signature animal, represented by his horned crown or by his steeds Seri and Hurri, who drew his chariot or carried him on their backs. In the Hurrian schema, he was paired with Hebat the mother goddess; in the Hittite, with the sun goddess of Arinna—a cultus of great antiquity which may ultimately derive from the bull god and mother goddess worshipped at Çatalhöyük in the Neolithic era. Myths also exist of his conflict with the sea creature (possibly a snake or serpent) Hedammu (CTH 348). His son was Sarruma. According to Hittite myth, one of his greatest acts was the slaying of the dragon Illuyanka.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

son of Teshub is Sarruma...let's repeat just this part...
His son was Sarruma. According to Hittite myth, one of his greatest acts was the slaying of the dragon Illuyanka

Sabazios is same as Sarruma? look at this part of text about Sabazios:
The iconic image of the god or hero on horseback battling the chthonic serpent, on which his horse tramples, appears on Celtic votive columns, and with the coming of Christianity it was easily transformed into the image of Saint George and the Dragon, whose earliest known depictions are from tenth- and eleventh-century Cappadocia and eleventh-century Georgia and Armenia.[5]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabazios

Sabazios / Serbs .... Sarruma / Serians....
this could be about nations...

but then if Sabazios is about Serbs, who is dragon/snake Illuyanka?
perhaps E-V13 Illyrians who were moving forward from middle East along south part of Asia minor accross previous Hurian-Serian spreads of R1a and I2a (previous Hati being R1b and perhaps some I or J haplogroup(s) )?

According to the Library and Epitome of Apollodorus, Illyrius was the youngest son of Cadmus and Harmonia who eventually ruled Illyria and became the eponymous ancestor of the whole Illyrian people.[1] Illyrius was specifically born during an expedition against the Illyrians on the side of the Encheleans.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

In Euripides' The Bacchae, Cadmus is given a prophecy by Dionysus whereby both he and his wife will be turned into snakes for a period before eventually being brought to live among the blest.

In Phoenician, as well as Hebrew, the Semitic root qdm signifies "the east", the Levantine origin of "Kdm" himself, according to the Greek mythographers; the equation of Kadmos with the Semitic qdm was traced to a publication of 1646 by R. B. Edwards.[21] The name Kadmos has been thoroughly Hellenised.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadmus

and who is Veles/Volos?
Bolos - Taurus area? (after being overwhelmed with E-V13 people)
or Vlah (Roman people) as new historic time enemy?
 
Well, perhaps not. I was never talking about Russia, it is a territory that was settled much later, so it doesn't belong in this discussion.
key hotspots of R1a are in Russia along Don, in south Poland (or in what was white Croatia) and in Baltic republics...in Hungary, it is central Hungary where Magyars settled....while not in east and west Hungary that cluster with Serb-Croats and Ukraine....
non-Slavic Albanians of FYRM has 2x more R1a than Slavic Montenegro and roughly same as Serbs and Macedonians...while non-Slavic Macedonian greeks has twice more R1a than Slavic Macedonians, Serbs and Bulgars...

do you start to see my point now?


Regarding Balkans: Slavs were invaders there, possibly a relatively small group that moved in from the north and east. So making assumptions about the origin of Slavs based on what you read into Balkan DNA data, is at a minimum, unscientific.

Slavs were invaders in Russia and Poland...

core of their spread is east and central Ukraine
in fact, Russian primary chronicle puts early Slavs in areas around Danube (Serbia, north Bulgaria, Hungary) and in Noricum, and claims that spread to Vistula came from those Danube areas after being pushed by Roman empire... mapping to previous people that would be Veneti derived people in Noricum, Pannonians in Hungary and Dalmatia, Triballi in upper Moesia and Scordisci/Serdi around Danube... now modern Serbs were in some Byzantine sources called Triballi...and relation to tribal name Scordisci/Serdi is obvious....

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle

I2a2 is clear marker of Serbs with tribal name sharing same root as for I2a1 Sardinians, I1 Swedes, I1 and I2b Suebi...

split between I1+ I2b and I2a2 explains easily split Germanic/Slavic languages...

Bavarian geographer manuscript speaks of Zeruiani whose state was so big that all Slavs come from it... I have shown in first few post maps that make obvious clear match of spread of I2a2 with spread of early Slavs...while R1a shows nothing alike......and you try to convince me that spread of I2a2 that shows clear correlation with spread of early Slavs has nothing to do with spread of Slavs but is about previous people?

Slavs are of Japhet race according to Russian primary chronicle... and we know that Gomer and thus haplogroup I is of Japhet race... sure you can say that Japhet had other sons except Gomer... but check time distance between split of branches of haplogroups...I doubt that there was tens of thousands of years between Japhet and some of his sons... very likely whole people derived from Noah story involves only IJ haplogroup...

on other hand, according to Klyosov R1a is oldest in Serbia and south Siberia..which may indicate that proto-Serbs were origianaly R1a people and original R1a people...also Sorbs are most R1a dominant people in Europe..

You are creating a largely false and speculative history that is unlikely and unverifiable. A much more probable theory of the origin of Slavs is the obvious one in front of us: large ethnogenesis in the northern Carpathian region from IE groups (including sme Iranians based on linguistics), from indigeneous surviving I groups, and from layers of other tribes that had passed through that territory.
nope, as I stated in this thread the theory about R1a being Slavic originally is much more questionable...

and theories pushed of R1a as Aryans and PIE people...
brief look on spread of R1a shows that non-IE Etruscans had R1a as dominant... and ancient Macedonians...and also non-IE Magyars... and non-IE Scythians and very likely also Turkic people such as Oghurs, Khazars... also there is R1a in Vikings...

so, R1a cannot be taken as exclusively Slavic marker nor as exclusive Slavic marker...a part of it might have been in early Slavs.... and that's all...early Slavs have clear I2a2 signature as I have explained in first few posts...

Unless there is some strange atavistic agenda lurking behind your theories, I don't understand what your theories are all about. But if you want to be upfront and convincing, use fewer maps (they are only partial data at this point), and word associations, and answer the historical points that I listed above.
my theories are search for truth....
R1a Aryan-Slavic-PIE theory is search for validation...
in ancient past, R1a is likely marker for Scythians....
whether Scythians were proto-Slavs is hard to say...
I think not...
 

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