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spongetaro
30-03-11, 13:35
Muslim Spain was in the early middle ages the most civilized country in Europe and therefore ne of the most influential. On the other hand, Celtic culture of Spain remains largely a mystery today

http://www.novascotiascott.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/muslim_spain.gifhttp://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4646&d=1299007311

Canek
30-03-11, 13:40
easy: moors of course.

this debate has no mystery.

adamo
22-04-13, 13:33
The answer is 100% celts, they left an enormous cultural and genetic impact on Spain, much more so than any Arabs.

Ziober
22-04-13, 14:55
Celtic culture isn't a mystery in spain. Most of "pagana" culture is celt, as the folk music in many regions.

In the other hand, culturally we have Arabic contributions. Not genetically.

oriental
23-04-13, 00:16
The Moors (Berbers) were Haplogroup E not J1 (Arabs).

Ziober
23-04-13, 19:05
The Moors (Berbers) were Haplogroup E not J1 (Arabs).

The berber weren't the culture carriers, they only fought at kalifas's service. The elites cames from Damasco and middle east

oriental
23-04-13, 20:10
There was a young Canadian engineer working at our office. He was of Spanish descent who told me he was a Berber. At that time I didn't know a Berber was.

Ziober
23-04-13, 23:24
There was a young Canadian engineer working at our office. He was of Spanish descent who told me he was a Berber. At that time I didn't know a Berber was.

I think that is not relevant. Most of Moroccan people haven't understood arabic "topónimos" (place names) around Iberia, Cause is different language. Indeed berbers became muslims at the time of Iberian conquest. They were as free as the celts. And Europeans in origin.

Carlos
24-04-13, 00:28
There was a young Canadian engineer working at our office. He was of Spanish descent who told me he was a Berber. At that time I didn't know a Berber was.

Maybe he could be a son of immigrants from the city of Melilla and Ceuta. It is impossible, no current Spanish, and before the immigration we have now, I could say I am Berber, would be just as impossible as if to say: I am a Roman, or am Visigoths.


Honestly I'm perplexed. The Muslim era we live the present as if we spoke Spanish from Roman or any other historical passage, history pure, no vestige nor oral tradition, or feeling of closeness or familiarity with the Muslim era.

Yes it may be true that some children today progressive potato with lots of money suddenly I was able to build a house for Arabic style and fantasize believing descendants of the Arab kings of Granada, but nothing more.

oriental
24-04-13, 03:19
He might be a Berber before the Muslim era as he is Christian. He doesn't look Muslim but very European but a little dark complexioned.

Carlos
24-04-13, 03:30
He might be a Berber before the Muslim era as he is Christian. He doesn't look Muslim but very European but a little dark complexioned.

If done genetic testing today and the result feels Berber and Berber, is your problem. But no current Spanish says: I am Berber, is impossible.


It can also be a child of a mixed marriage of Moroccan Spanish.


Obviously haplogroup tells of a very remote ancestor, but that does not make Berber, Egyptian or Viking and the overnight.

I should have asked questions of why he said it was Berber. Because what you are saying is equivalent to Spanish to say: I am a Roman, Visigoth am, I'm Umayyad, etc. is something that makes no sense.


Note that after the Muslim era Spain conclude their unity, discovery of America all that entails, after Napoleon's invasion, the Spanish civil war, dictatorship and democracy after. For us to speak of the Muslim era is like talking to Roman times, is something we read in the history books, so do not give me a tales Spanish told him it was Berber. : Smile:

adamo
24-04-13, 04:36
The Berbers where not European in origin, in any way. They roamed the North African Sahara desert far to the west of the Nile valley. Most Berbers live in Algeria, Tunisia and morocco. The predominant Berber genetic marker is haplogroup E-M81, found in Algeria, morocco, and Tunisia, not to mention certain parts of Mauritania and Spain/Portugal ( at much lower frequencies in the latter two regions). Most of the haplogroup E in Spain/Portugal is E-M81+, meaning that there is, to a certain degree, Berber influence/west North African influence on the Iberian peninsula. But this influence is totally crushed/subdued by the massive Celtic R1b influence that was already in Iberia looooooong before these later and less successful north-African origin migrations to Iberia.

Carlos
24-04-13, 10:41
The Berbers where not European in origin, in any way. They roamed the North African Sahara desert far to the west of the Nile valley. Most Berbers live in Algeria, Tunisia and morocco. The predominant Berber genetic marker is haplogroup E-M81, found in Algeria, morocco, and Tunisia, not to mention certain parts of Mauritania and Spain/Portugal ( at much lower frequencies in the latter two regions). Most of the haplogroup E in Spain/Portugal is E-M81+, meaning that there is, to a certain degree, Berber influence/west North African influence on the Iberian peninsula. But this influence is totally crushed/subdued by the massive Celtic R1b influence that was already in Iberia looooooong before these later and less successful north-African origin migrations to Iberia.

That's not the point, we are not playing to see who is more pure, because nobody is. The point is that there may be Spanish to be M81, never genetic testing and will never know, but Spain before the current immigration is not a country like Canada or USA where there are forty thousand cultures and races and know first hand its origins because it is a relatively young country. But it is impossible for a modern Spanish fathers, mothers, grandparents Spanish with Spanish surnames all say: I am Berber, is totally surreal. Abroad really hallucinate our Muslim era, but as I have said to us is to speak of the Roman Empire in the peninsula, History and nobody thinks that a Spanish have been told I am Roman time of Caligula.

adamo
24-04-13, 14:53
What exactly are you implying by more "pure"? And I didn't say that these E-M81 spaniards are Berbers....I said maybe a few thousand years ago, these men's ancestors where roaming western north-Africa, as the Berbers ( also high in E-M81) still do today. An E-M81 spaniards ancestor, several thousand years ago, probably was from North Africa in the morocco/Algeria area, as most spaniards are E-M81 and not E-M78.

Carlos
24-04-13, 15:32
In every country there are different haplogroups. Exclusivity in Europe do not have the INDO-European, can also be AFRO-European. And that minorities do not affect the majority and these absorb, I think not, there are influences, are these studies, we have many for hundreds Europeans with extra-European origin, Gedrosia, north africa, northern europe, mediterranean, etc. I mean we are a mix and nothing would be the same without the various components, it would be something else, absorb dissolved sounds like an acid that dissolves and not, rather, contributes to the creation of peoples. Spanish will M81, especially in Galicia, but these forums do not fall, dare not, why?, Do not know. Nor is there any French M81 by this board, what happens, you know?

Ziober
24-04-13, 16:52
I agree with almost everything Carlos said. Except one point. Berber is a living culture and Ethnic group today, so it is possible to be spanish and berber. Indeed many linguistics links ber ber to iber (Ebro river[ from Cantabria to Catalonia)

In the other hand, there are paints from roman empire times which shows berber as caucasic peoples with red hair.

Carlos
24-04-13, 22:11
If we are talking about the Spanish that are M81 DNA and to be ignored because they never make the test and statistics should know because these people are culturally and genetically Berbers if they have thousands or hundreds of years in Spain not be accurate guess the Berbers present or the past. They M81 marker but there is more, as would happen to a Moroccan R1b eg it does not think it's going around saying that it is British or iberic

zanipolo
24-04-13, 22:40
If we are talking about the Spanish that are M81 DNA and to be ignored because they never make the test and statistics should know because these people are culturally and genetically Berbers if they have thousands or hundreds of years in Spain not be accurate guess the Berbers present or the past. They M81 marker but there is more, as would happen to a Moroccan R1b eg it does not think it's going around saying that it is British or iberic

I do not understand what you mean.

the berbers/moors where not the darkskinned north-african you think of people today. They where the same skinned people as the rest of southern iberia.
The genetic component is the same.

Post #1 is very accurate except for the raetic part. The term and lands of iberia is correct

BTW, post1 IMO represents late bronze age period

Carlos
25-04-13, 02:19
to zanipolo

Each country has its own blends, two countries will not be equal. Spain is super smooth from north to south, you can gather a group of Spanish and Spanish or ourselves as we could tell what region or province is everyone.


Yes, in northern Morocco are pretty clear skin, perhaps in other areas too, some men perhaps for his work abroad are more tanned. But in Morocco from people with very dark skin that does not tan that is very difficult to find a native Spanish either north or south, except Roma.


With this I am not making a clear skin defense, God help me, is simply an analysis of my experience and vision.


We now have a large immigration of Berbers in Spain and honestly we are different, each country has its own style and that's wonderful, not a criticism.


Are you really committed to the skin. How are we going to be the same as other countries Spanish? no man, the Spanish are Spanish, from Spain, one of the most important nations in the history of humanity, like his country, I do not play it down, imagine also have an origin and an incredible history and will be very dark-skinned people I imagine that some will still ...

adamo
25-04-13, 03:09
Moroccans are as North African as it gets, 80% of Moroccan males are haplogroup E, most of it being E-M81. They're darker, not light as you say. Also you claim that spaniards are "smooth", from one side to the other. Now I don't know if you're referring to their skin after they apply lotion but I have troubles trying to comprehend what that even means. Also you state that each country has its own unique genetic blends, and that is correct, although you mustn't forget that certain countries/regions have much more similar blends than others to one another, while others do not.

Carlos
25-04-13, 15:55
Moroccans are as North African as it gets, 80% of Moroccan males are haplogroup E, most of it being E-M81. They're darker, not light as you say. Also you claim that spaniards are "smooth", from one side to the other. Now I don't know if you're referring to their skin after they apply lotion but I have troubles trying to comprehend what that even means. Also you state that each country has its own unique genetic blends, and that is correct, although you mustn't forget that certain countries/regions have much more similar blends than others to one another, while others do not.

I do not claim anything. For me it is a mess of skin color issues and more today where people love to go naked nothing but the good weather, and the skins are quite affected by the so. Perhaps a tourist visiting Spain or other Mediterranean country and sees a dark super mason think it is a natural color of the man, but the native Spanish we see and distinguish among us who are tanned or are so dark because they punished her skin abroad. Like I said, this topic does not interest me much, but I agree with those who are concerned: The Nordic or Germanic Europeans are lighter, whiter or whatever anyone says, but for us our skin color is a point more just or normal.


The same happens with the Moroccans, most of their women are whiter than even the Spanish who love the dark and reject whiteness.

adamo
25-04-13, 16:51
Because their mtdna haplogroups are about 40% of them ( Moroccans in particular I am speaking of) belong to the mtdna L lineage and another 30% are mtdna H. They predominantly, when it comes to L, belong to L1 and L2. They have continental African maternal blood and also some European genetic influence.

zanipolo
25-04-13, 21:12
Because their mtdna haplogroups are about 40% of them ( Moroccans in particular I am speaking of) belong to the mtdna L lineage and another 30% are mtdna H. They predominantly, when it comes to L, belong to L1 and L2. They have continental African maternal blood and also some European genetic influence.

one can test, by their mtdna markers if they are ..(as you state) - have some L1 or L2 north-west african mark.
The eastern african marker is ( as I was told ) L3 which became N for me ( N is basically caucasus) and later H

so, iberian people can see their maternal lines.

adamo
26-04-13, 00:00
N became R first, then pre-HV, then HV, then H. But originally, yes, it is female L3 that would leave Africa and become the middle-eastern N lineage.

Carlos
26-04-13, 01:11
was Spanish culture more influenced by Arab or Celtic civilization ?
Returning to the origin of the yarn.


I keep seeing that foreigners know little to Spanish, our culture and how we feel or we feel.


To begin the question would understand if it were for example:
was Spanish culture more influenced by Arab or The Roman Empire civilization ?
The Celtic factor we assume like an ingredient that goes directly to the core integrated into a new Spanish but with continuity, like a metal alloy.


In the case of the Roman Empire or of the Muslim era we see as periods, episodes of our history, but leave more stones or influences in language, cuisine, place names etc. sientiéndolo us as something outside.


That's a question a little strange for us.

LeBrok
26-04-13, 03:02
.


To begin the question would understand if it were for example:
was Spanish culture more influenced by Arab or The Roman Empire civilization ?


.
This is no brainer. Rome gave Spain language and religion. Two biggest cultural items.

However today's Spain, have staggering influences from England and USA, where current economic and financial systems come from, not mentioning music, movies and science, well, same as the rest of the world.

Carlos
26-04-13, 10:04
This is no brainer. Rome gave Spain language and religion. Two biggest cultural items.

However today's Spain, have staggering influences from England and USA, where current economic and financial systems come from, not mentioning music, movies and science, well, same as the rest of the world.


Make no mistake, it's a cinch, by the bad will get nothing from Spain or take centuries to conquer, now take everything good.


But E.E.U.U. is a wonderful country in Europe wished we did not have so many prejudices.

Ziober
26-04-13, 19:09
I had liked this video. It shows good the celt influence in Castilla, in spite of some data mistaken:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g55u_RMDjeM

Carlos
26-04-13, 22:40
I had liked this video. It shows good the celt influence in Castilla, in spite of some data mistaken:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g55u_RMDjeM

Do not bother too much on the subject, the monopoly of the Celtic world is theirs.

zanipolo
26-04-13, 23:39
Do not bother too much on the subject, the monopoly of the Celtic world is theirs.

as per post #1, would it be fair to say, that the catalans are the original ancient iberians and not celtic, while the castiians, leonese and galicians are celtic and less so old ancient iberians?

Ziober
26-04-13, 23:58
Do not bother too much on the subject, the monopoly of the Celtic world is theirs.

JAJAJAJAJAJ, un punto para ti

Ziober
27-04-13, 00:01
as per post #1, would it be fair to say, that the catalans are the original ancient iberians and not celtic, while the castiians, leonese and galicians are celtic and less so old ancient iberians?

Not exactly, before the complete circle route maybe. But after Central europeans celts cames, catalans were celtiberians.

Ziober
27-04-13, 00:39
link deleted

Carlos
27-04-13, 00:51
as per post #1, would it be fair to say, that the catalans are the original ancient iberians and not celtic, while the castiians, leonese and galicians are celtic and less so old ancient iberians?


I think that mixtures have occurred somewhat differently in proportion in different Spanish regions giving a fairly homogeneous product in total. Of all the places that names do think that Barcelona privincia factor may have less Celtic and sometimes I can see very clearly as were the Laietans, however in Lleida think it's more Celtic contribution should have received. Castile, Leon and Galicia? I think it must be quite middle-middle and away from those who could claim more Iberian factor in Galicia than in the latter two regions: Castilla y Leon. My conclusion is that it was an alloy in high percentages perhaps almost the same level as a new inhabitant settled in the Iberian Peninsula, which has been called Celtiberian, more then other contributions but the significance of this first.