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kgnju
01-04-11, 15:56
Which HG Could Alexander the great most probably be?Thank you!

Melusine
01-04-11, 16:26
The only way to know Alexander The Greats haplogroup is to have a complete published genealogy of one of his known male direct line desendants without any generation gaps. Then there is a possiblility of arriving at a haplogroup.


Melsuine

Antigone
01-04-11, 17:11
Alexander the Great was buried in Alexandria but the remains have been missing since antiquity, I think. Alexander's father, Phillip II of Macedon's tomb was found in 1977 in Vergina, Greece and the Larnax containing (supposedly) his bones is currently in the museum at Vergina but I don't know if they have been tested for DNA.

sparkey
01-04-11, 17:15
Alexander came from an area where today we see a lot of Y-DNA haplogroup diversity. Predicting his haplogroup with any confidence is not really possible at the moment.

Based on modern distributions, he may have been E1b1b, J2, R1a, or R1b. But there are other possibilities, and I wouldn't assign likelihoods.

Regulus
01-04-11, 17:47
Alexander came from an area where today we see a lot of Y-DNA haplogroup diversity. Predicting his haplogroup with any confidence is not really possible at the moment.

Based on modern distributions, he may have been E1b1b, J2, R1a, or R1b. But there are other possibilities, and I wouldn't assign likelihoods.


Well, can we find out what Zeus' haplogroup was?

According to Olympias, he was a more likely candidate to have been Alexander's father.

sparkey
01-04-11, 17:53
Well, can we find out what Zeus' haplogroup was?

According to Olympias, he was a more likely candidate to have been Alexander's father.

Haplogroup Z it is, then. :laughing:

Regulus
01-04-11, 18:22
Haplogroup Z it is, then. :laughing:


Well done - case closed.

Antigone
01-04-11, 18:25
Haplogroup Z it is, then. :laughing:

I thought it could be D for divine.

sparkey
01-04-11, 18:52
I thought it could be D for divine.

I hope it's D2, that would pretty much mean that Alexander was Ainu. :confused2:

Regulus
01-04-11, 18:57
Seeing that I have officially wrecked this thread, I apologize.

But since the damage is already done, I offer the question of whom would one choose to meet if one was able, Olympias or Roxanne?

I would have to go with Roxanne. The man had marriage offers thrown at him from all sides, but he chose her.

iapetoc
22-06-11, 20:13
Seeing that I have officially wrecked this thread, I apologize.

But since the damage is already done, I offer the question of whom would one choose to meet if one was able, Olympias or Roxanne?

I would have to go with Roxanne. The man had marriage offers thrown at him from all sides, but he chose her.


do you know why?

she was was most inappropriate for him,
and from tribes greeks never knew
just think parents friends etc to tell you marry this or that, and suddenly you choose the one all tell you to not

Maciamo
22-06-11, 20:44
If the Macedonian elite descended from the Macedonian branch of the Indo-Europeans, and the elite kept a strict apartheid with the conquered population until the time of Alexander (very likely considering that Hindus have managed to do it for the last 4500 years), then the most likely haplogroups for Alexander the Great and other ancient Macedonian nobility was R1a1a, R1b1b2 or G2a3b1. It is tempting to say that the chances are higher for R1a1a because this is the most common of the three haplogroups in Macedonia nowadays (just a little higher than R1b). But it could very well be that R1a1a in modern Macedonia is of later Slavic, Germanic (Ostrogothic) or Central Asian (Bulgarian, Hunnic, Turkic) origin. In fact, it is very likely that most of the R1a1a in the Balkans is of various Central Asian and Slavic origin, which explains its great diversity. Therefore R1b1b2 emerges as the most likely possibility for Alexander the Great.

archaiocapilos
26-06-11, 04:55
y-dna haplogroups in Greek-Macedonia (256 samples):
R1a = 45 (17.6%)
R1b = 34 (13.3%)
I = 56 (21.9%)
E1b = 53 (20.7%)
J2 = 36 (14.1%)
G = 12 ( 4.7%)

What makes you think that Alexander could not belong to I or E1b1b haplogroups which are the most common in modern day Greek Macedonians? And why should he be R1b1b2?

zanipolo
26-06-11, 05:54
y-dna haplogroups in Greek-Macedonia (256 samples):
R1a = 45 (17.6%)
R1b = 34 (13.3%)
I = 56 (21.9%)
E1b = 53 (20.7%)
J2 = 36 (14.1%)
G = 12 ( 4.7%)

What makes you think that Alexander could not belong to I or E1b1b haplogroups which are the most common in modern day Greek Macedonians? And why should he be R1b1b2?


Ask the pope if a dna can be done on the body of Saint Mark or is it Alexander the Great , he has refused twice already
http://www.veritasreport.com/2009/12/is-st-mark-in-venice-or-is-it-alexander-the-great/

I agree with maciano, but thats because I also feel the anceint macedonians where not greek or slavic

Maciamo
26-06-11, 13:22
y-dna haplogroups in Greek-Macedonia (256 samples):
R1a = 45 (17.6%)
R1b = 34 (13.3%)
I = 56 (21.9%)
E1b = 53 (20.7%)
J2 = 36 (14.1%)
G = 12 ( 4.7%)

What makes you think that Alexander could not belong to I or E1b1b haplogroups which are the most common in modern day Greek Macedonians? And why should he be R1b1b2?

Because Alexander belonged to the Indo-European ruling class, which was most probably pure R1b with a G2a3b1 minority.

Besides, most of the haplogroup I might have arrived in Macedonia after the time of Alexander. I1 and I2b would have come with the Germanic invasions at the end of the Roman empire. I2a2 might well have come with the Slavic migrations.

However, if the Indo-Europeans mixed with the other inhabitants of Greeks without Hindu-style segregation, and all classes had their fair chances to become nobility, then haplogroups E1b1b, I2 and J are also possible. But I doubt so. It is important to keep in mind that Alexander had light skin, blond hair, and blue eyes, like many other Macedonian nobles, which suggests that the Indo-European speakers from the steppes didn't mix with the dark-skinned and curly black-haired Middle Eastern Neolithic inhabitants of Greece (those typically depicted in ancient Greek pottery).

iapetoc
26-06-11, 14:16
Because Alexander belonged to the Indo-European ruling class, which was most probably pure R1b with a G2a3b1 minority.

Besides, most of the haplogroup I might have arrived in Macedonia after the time of Alexander. I1 and I2b would have come with the Germanic invasions at the end of the Roman empire. I2a2 might well have come with the Slavic migrations.

However, if the Indo-Europeans mixed with the other inhabitants of Greeks without Hindu-style segregation, and all classes had their fair chances to become nobility, then haplogroups E1b1b, I2 and J are also possible. But I doubt so. It is important to keep in mind that Alexander had light skin, blond hair, and blue eyes, like many other Macedonian nobles, which suggests that the Indo-European speakers from the steppes didn't mix with the dark-skinned and curly black-haired Middle Eastern Neolithic inhabitants of Greece (those typically depicted in ancient Greek pottery).

blue eyes?

can we have a source

cause that is at least with late proven a myth

blonde as a grey-blonde it was after his mother,
Olympias is mentioned blond

But Phillip had curly hair as also alexander
body type of Phillip was short with thick shoulders,
that type (phillip) can be found in eteocretans in thessaly in areas north of athens and in mountain epirus
Here were I live you can find many especially in the villages that are ancient

R1a people are blonde but have straight hairs
R1b is possible but at least in Greece they are not that blonde
G and J is possible cause they have curly hairs and bodytype like alexander

the European kings story of the 3 R1b R1a and G2a in case of Alexander I believe it goes either G either R1b
also in a J there is possibility
the R1a I do not exclude but the bodytype is not according R1a peoples not even the face,

the bones of Makedonian exist. in fact in the Vergina tombs we have even skin but there is a debate among phillip's or alexander IV
also there is a looted tomb, which according many archaiologists might be Olympias tomb in Pudna
for me the case goes either to G and j and after R1b and last the R1a
the case of I and especially of I2a2 is not for discuss cause all makedonian kings were shorts

i still want to hear of Blond Makedonians with blue eyes,
while Phillip was the opposite (maybe the shorter King)

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 15:49
Besides, most of the haplogroup I might have arrived in Macedonia after the time of Alexander. I1 and I2b would have come with the Germanic invasions at the end of the Roman empire. I2a2 might well have come with the Slavic migrations.
I think some of I2a also was there before south Slavs e.g. south Slavs never settled coasts of Asia minor...
but indeed most of I2 must be due to Slavs, as it is what distinguish Slavs from non-slavs in Balkan...
curiously, R1a is on similar level among non-Slavic FYRM Albanians, Slavic FYRM Macedonians, Slavic Serbs, while lower in Slavic Montenegro, and higher in Greek Macedonians. This tells me that R1a was likely one of dominant haplogroups of ancient Macedonians..

so, I agree... probably R1a, R1b or G...
but royal family of Macedonians did have greek origin, which we can trace regarding dispute over participating in Olympic games, so it may have been E-V13 or J2 as well....


However, if the Indo-Europeans mixed with the other inhabitants of Greeks without Hindu-style segregation, and all classes had their fair chances to become nobility, then haplogroups E1b1b, I2 and J are also possible. But I doubt so. It is important to keep in mind that Alexander had light skin, blond hair, and blue eyes, like many other Macedonian nobles, which suggests that the Indo-European speakers from the steppes didn't mix with the dark-skinned and curly black-haired Middle Eastern Neolithic inhabitants of Greece (those typically depicted in ancient Greek pottery).

blue eyes?
R1a people are blonde but have straight hairs
R1b is possible but at least in Greece they are not that blonde
G and J is possible cause they have curly hairs and bodytype like alexander

I do not think it is that simple...
Y-DNA is just small part of genetic material... it is probably not the one that determines color of eyes, hair, body built...

one has many male ancestors... and YDNA reflects only direct male line... imagine a tree whose body we are... roots of the tree is tree hierarchy consisting of many many branches, that are smaller and more numerous deeper we go... .... YDNA traces just one of the branches all the way to a single small ... so in my opinion Y-DNA makes sense only for tracing movements of big populations....not for determining physical traits... of course if all male ancestors of a person are from same YDNA branch than we can make some generalizations...

Elias2
26-06-11, 16:06
Macedons did not have blone hair and blue eyes, this is a myth created by northern europeans to explain why ancients greeks did what they did by saying they were pure "ayran" race like they *thought* they were in north europe.

4905

That was made in 100 BC, though not during his lifetime, I think the creators had an idea what macedons looked like.

iapetoc
26-06-11, 16:12
I think some of I2a also was there before south Slavs e.g. south Slavs never settled coasts of Asia minor...
but indeed most of I2 must be due to Slavs, as it is what distinguish Slavs from non-slavs in Balkan...
curiously, R1a is on similar level among non-Slavic FYRM Albanians, Slavic FYRM Macedonians, Slavic Serbs, while lower in Slavic Montenegro, and higher in Greek Macedonians. This tells me that R1a was likely one of dominant haplogroups of ancient Macedonians..

so, I agree... probably R1a, R1b or G...
but royal family of Macedonians did have greek origin, which we can trace regarding dispute over participating in Olympic games, so it may have been E-V13 or J2 as well....




I do not think it is that simple...
Y-DNA is just small part of genetic material... it is probably not the one that determines color of eyes, hair, body built...

one has many male ancestors... and YDNA reflects only direct male line... imagine a tree whose body we are... roots of the tree is tree hierarchy consisting of many many branches, that are smaller and more numerous deeper we go... .... YDNA traces just one of the branches all the way to a single small ... so in my opinion Y-DNA makes sense only for tracing movements of big populations....not for determining physical traits... of course if all male ancestors of a person are from same YDNA branch than we can make some generalizations...



Better read the Thread aabout Makedonians and Macdonaldians
the Original and the fake Slavo-Serbic or Avaro-Balkars who claim that

Besides Dusan of Serbia was not slavic not Serbian
His capital was Skopje and spoke Bulgarian

So Dusan was A Bulgarian KING


Pan-Slavism is Over
End of Story

archaiocapilos
05-07-11, 04:15
Because Alexander belonged to the Indo-European ruling class, which was most probably pure R1b with a G2a3b1 minority.

Besides, most of the haplogroup I might have arrived in Macedonia after the time of Alexander. I1 and I2b would have come with the Germanic invasions at the end of the Roman empire. I2a2 might well have come with the Slavic migrations.

However, if the Indo-Europeans mixed with the other inhabitants of Greeks without Hindu-style segregation, and all classes had their fair chances to become nobility, then haplogroups E1b1b, I2 and J are also possible. But I doubt so. It is important to keep in mind that Alexander had light skin, blond hair, and blue eyes, like many other Macedonian nobles, which suggests that the Indo-European speakers from the steppes didn't mix with the dark-skinned and curly black-haired Middle Eastern Neolithic inhabitants of Greece (those typically depicted in ancient Greek pottery).
No Maciamo there wasn't Hindu-style segregation in Greece (or Greek Macedonia), you claim to be a scientist and you don't know that? And by the way nobility does not come from a straight line for thousand of years, there are countless examples of Kings in ancient Greece who came from abroad and substituted previous Kings of native origin. You seem to think that ancient Greek kings belonged to what you call Indo-European rulling class but this is absurd...Alexander claimed descend from Temenus of Argos who belonged to the Heraclidae (they considered themselves descendants of Hercules who was a Danaan). If there is any truth in that he belonged to the same haplogroup with Danaus who most propably was E-V13...No where close to your beloved R1b. I think that you are somehow confused because R1b is the most common haplogroup of modern (or at least of the last centuries) European Kings but nothing connects them with ancient Greek nobility. After all most of them are related by blood and origin from Central or West Europe which would naturally make them R1b's.

Sprinkles
06-07-11, 04:58
This is so stupid, i can't fathom the reason that brought you to this conclusion.

Maciamo, attributing the kinds of northern europe (haplogroup r) to the balkans (haplogroup I, J, E) is so ridiculous that it doesn't even merit a logical reply. The only reason you do this is to your own worldly desire. There is no evidence of it. The evidence is that you, a Belgian, want to impose your stupidity on a region you have no control over.

Stop making yourself look twisted and arrogant.

Cambrius (The Red)
06-07-11, 05:58
Macedons did not have blone hair and blue eyes, this is a myth created by northern europeans to explain why ancients greeks did what they did by saying they were pure "ayran" race like they *thought* they were in north europe.

4905

That was made in 100 BC, though not during his lifetime, I think the creators had an idea what macedons looked like.

Indeed, some of these nordicists say and write the silliest things.

Maciamo
06-07-11, 14:02
Macedons did not have blone hair and blue eyes, this is a myth created by northern europeans to explain why ancients greeks did what they did by saying they were pure "ayran" race like they *thought* they were in north europe.

4905

That was made in 100 BC, though not during his lifetime, I think the creators had an idea what macedons looked like.


Indeed, some of these nordicists say and write the silliest things.

It is actually the Greek biographer Plutarch (ca. 45–120 AD) who described Alexander as blond and blue-eyed :

"Alexander had light skin, blond hair, and melting blue eyes. A sweet natural fragrance came from his body, so strong that it perfumed his clothes."

This was somehow corroborated by the Greek historian Lucius Flavius Arrianus 'Xenophon' (ca. 86 - 160), who described Alexander as:

"The strong, handsome commander with one eye dark as the night and one blue as the sky".

It is therefore possible that Alexander had one brown eye and one blue eye.

Anyway I would give more credibility to the two Greek historians, because they were Greek intellectuals, while the person(s) who made the mosaic was a Roman artist, and artists aren't usually known for their historical accuracies.

DejaVu
06-07-11, 14:25
My friend is R1b1b2 and I am G2a3b1a (our parents are from Macedonia Region = ethnic Macedonians). Both of these haplogroups can be found in the Balkans but both are minority there. Yes Maciamo knows what he talks about.
The description of Alexander matches me alot same/lookalike bodytype same/lookalike facial structure as the face statue made of Lysippos and similarities to the other statues. Coincidence?
This does not have to be we are related just mention it that there can be something relevant in the discussion.
Probably many others can identify as same as a statue and that cant be evidence of haplogroup belonging.
What haplogroup Alexander is? Unknown hard to guess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_the_Great

Roman copy of a statue by Lysippos, Louvre Museum. Plutarch felt sculptures by Lysippos were the most faithful.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b0/AlexandreLouvre.jpg

Maciamo
06-07-11, 14:56
No Maciamo there wasn't Hindu-style segregation in Greece (or Greek Macedonia) you claim to be a scientist and you don't know that?

First of all, I don't see why being a scientist confers knowledge about history. Second, even historians cannot know everything about history. Third, I never "claimed" to be a scientist. This appellation doesn't mean anything to me. There are all sorts of "scientists". There are hundreds of specialities. Then a scientist could be either a researcher or a practician (like a doctor) or just someone who studied a scientific subject at university but doesn't necessarily work in a scientific field. These are all completely different things. That's why I would never refer to myself simply as a "scientist". Too vague. Meaningless.

Now to the point debated.

How could you possibly know that no Hindu-style apartheid happened in Greece following the PIE invasions ? Apart from archaeology (pots, weapons, graves), nothing is known about Greek society when the PIE invaded Europe from the steppes (a long process of successive waves of migrations that last from circa 3500 to 1500 BCE) We do know about the Mycenaeans who were the first Greek rulers who spoke an Indo-European language and had arts and customs clearly linked to the Pontic steppes (axes, fortified palace, underground burial chambers like the kurgan, etc). The Mycenaeans did practice a sort of apartheid between the elite/nobility and the the da-mo (demos, populace), i.e. the craftsmen, farmers, and merchants. This was followed by a long dark age in Greek history (1200-800 BCE) about which virtually nothing is known of the way people lived. The most likely scenario in my eyes is that the Indo-Europeans behaved similarly in all the regions they conquered. The similitude in culture, religion, language and lifestyle are so striking between Bronze-age Celts, Germans, Slavs and Hindus, over 2000 years after they split from each others, that it is reasonable to suppose that the organisation of society was roughly the same too. I have little doubts about the Mycenaeans, and am convinced that the genetic testing of Mycenaean graves will confirm that their elite remained predominantly Indo-European, not indigenous Greek. It is however much harder to estimate whether this elitist segregation continued through the Dark Ages or not, and if so whether it lasted until the time of Alexander.

Your reply is typical of people who cannot read properly (quite a few people here it seems). I never claimed to know. I just wrote:

"If the Macedonian elite descended from the Macedonian branch of the Indo-Europeans, and ["if" implied] the elite kept a strict apartheid with the conquered population until the time of Alexander (possible considering that Hindus have managed to do it for the last 4500 years), then the most likely haplogroups for Alexander the Great and other ancient Macedonian nobility was R1a1a, R1b1b2 or G2a3b1."

There are two strict conditions to my hypothesis:

1) the Macedonian elite must be descended from the Indo-Europeans
2) this Macedonian elite must have kept a Hindu-style apartheid for thousands of years

If both conditions are met, then (and only then) there is a very high probability (but never 100%) that Alexander belonged to R1a1a, R1b1b2 or G2a3b1. I know that is a lot of if's, which makes it only a remote hypothesis. I never claimed otherwise. There are only people here who can't read (you and Sprinkles) and mistakenly assume that I have reached an irrevocable conclusion, when I have just presented a mere conditional hypothesis.


And by the way nobility does not come from a straight line for thousand of years, there are countless examples of Kings in ancient Greece who came from abroad and substituted previous Kings of native origin. You seem to think that ancient Greek kings belonged to what you call Indo-European rulling class but this is absurd...Alexander claimed descend from Temenus of Argos who belonged to the Heraclidae (they considered themselves descendants of Hercules who was a Danaan).

Because descending from Hercules, a mythological figure, is less absurd in your eyes ?!

Elias2
06-07-11, 16:38
It is actually the Greek biographer Plutarch (ca. 45–120 AD) who described Alexander as blond and blue-eyed :

"Alexander had light skin, blond hair, and melting blue eyes. A sweet natural fragrance came from his body, so strong that it perfumed his clothes."

This was somehow corroborated by the Greek historian Lucius Flavius Arrianus 'Xenophon' (ca. 86 - 160), who described Alexander as:

"The strong, handsome commander with one eye dark as the night and one blue as the sky".

It is therefore possible that Alexander had one brown eye and one blue eye.

Anyway I would give more credibility to the two Greek historians, because they were Greek intellectuals, while the person(s) who made the mosaic was a Roman artist, and artists aren't usually known for their historical accuracies.

Well here is a mosaic done in the 3rd century B.C., very close to his lifetime;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AlexanderAndLion.jpg

It's not very detailed but his hair looks brown and not very light. His eyes you can't really tell. Not a good piece of evidence but one non-the-less.

Maciamo
06-07-11, 17:02
Well here is a mosaic done in the 3rd century B.C., very close to his lifetime;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:AlexanderAndLion.jpg

It's not very detailed but his hair looks brown and not very light. His eyes you can't really tell. Not a good piece of evidence but one non-the-less.

Can't tell the hair and eyes colour either. And judging from the appearance of the lion, it is not very realistic anyway. For facial traits nothing beats a good classical Greco-Roman statue.

kostop
08-07-11, 14:33
Sorry for interfering, but Plutarch never wrote that Alexander had blue eyes or blond hair. What he mentions is:

The statues that gave the best representation of Alexander's person, were those of Lysippus, (by whom alone he would suffer his image to be made,) those peculiarities which many of his successors afterwards and his friends used to affect to imitate, the inclination of his head a little on one side towards his left shoulder, and his melting eye, having been expressed by this artist with great exactness. But Apelles, who drew him with thunderbolts in his hand, made his complexion browner and darker than it was naturally; for he was fair and of a light color, passing into ruddiness in his face and upon his breast. Aristoxenus in his Memoirs tells us that a most agreeable odor exhaled from his skin, and that his breath and body all over was so fragrant as to perfume the clothes which he wore next him;

Anyway, Alexander had heterochromia according to some sources, therefore his two eyes were of different colours (or at least shades). Blue, green, brown eyes and their combinations existed in ancient Greece (although dark brown eyes were the most common) just as they do in modern Greece, therefore any finding would not be surprising.

Best,
Elias

archaiocapilos
11-07-11, 14:41
How could you possibly know that no Hindu-style apartheid happened in Greece following the PIE invasions ? Apart from archaeology (pots, weapons, graves), nothing is known about Greek society when the PIE invaded Europe from the steppes (a long process of successive waves of migrations that last from circa 3500 to 1500 BCE) We do know about the Mycenaeans who were the first Greek rulers who spoke an Indo-European language and had arts and customs clearly linked to the Pontic steppes (axes, fortified palace, underground burial chambers like the kurgan, etc). The Mycenaeans did practice a sort of apartheid between the elite/nobility and the the da-mo (demos, populace), i.e. the craftsmen, farmers, and merchants.

Since we have not any Y-DNA of Mycenean royalty extracted your argument of them being R1a1a is baseless...After all the Myceneans settled in Peloponnesus, the region of Greece with the lowest percentage of R1a1a (5-6%).

"If the Macedonian elite descended from the Macedonian branch of the Indo-Europeans, and ["if" implied] the elite kept a strict apartheid with the conquered population until the time of Alexander (possible considering that Hindus have managed to do it for the last 4500 years), then the most likely haplogroups for Alexander the Great and other ancient Macedonian nobility was R1a1a, R1b1b2 or G2a3b1."

There are two strict conditions to my hypothesis:

1) the Macedonian elite must be descended from the Indo-Europeans
2) this Macedonian elite must have kept a Hindu-style apartheid for thousands of years

There's also a third strict condition, that the Indo-Europeans were R1a1a, R1b1b2 or G2a3b1

archaiocapilos
11-07-11, 14:53
Because descending from Hercules, a mythological figure, is less absurd in your eyes ?!
Well, if the Indo-European rulling class kept a Hindu-style segregation as you claim then I'm sure they knew exactly who they descend from. The fact that Heracles was a Mythological figure connected with the Danaans and depicted as Mediterranean (dark skinned, grypos with curly hair) makes it clear that Macedonian nobility didn't identify with blonde, pale steppe Northerners as you SUPPOSE...
Ancient Greek nobility was not of Nordic or West European race Maciamo, they were Mediterraneans, Alpines and Dinarics like modern Greeks. So their haplogroups could be E-V13, R1b1b2, R1a1a, J2, G... noone really knows!!

phoenix
04-10-11, 20:12
I think the most probably haplogroups were E-V13

phoenix
04-10-11, 20:13
and R1b1b2 i doubt in the R1a1a possibility it is high in Macedonia because they are Slavic nation

Nikas
25-11-11, 08:45
It is important to keep in mind that Alexander had light skin, blond hair, and blue eyes, like many other Macedonian nobles, which suggests that the Indo-European speakers from the steppes didn't mix with the dark-skinned and curly black-haired Middle Eastern Neolithic inhabitants of Greece (those typically depicted in ancient Greek pottery).

Hi Maciamo,

As knowledgeable as you are in genetics, unfortunately you are incorrect here. Plutarch describes Alexander as "ruddy" and "fair", but doesn't specify hair or eye colour. Aelian describes Alexander as "xanthizein" which in ancient Greek could have been light brown or dirty blonde or basically anything this side of black, so that doesn't help. One source that currently escapes my recollection is the one that says Alexander had two different eye colours for each eye, but I seem to recall that being spurious. The Alexander mosaic in Pompeii's House of Faun is said to be based on a near contemporary painting executed by Apelles for Cassander and he looks pretty brunette there, however we must allow for the patron's own biases. The Alexander in the guise of Ares mosaic and the young Alexander in the Pella mosaics, although show fairer hair, it seems all of the images do and in context of artistic liberty (dark background; lighter hair to contrast). Finally, the Alexander Sarcophagus has a hodgepodge of colouring on the characters, so again inconclusive.
The only thing we can say with any certainty is that we don't know with any certainty what colour his hair was, and even less on the eyes.

Nikas
25-11-11, 09:13
It is actually the Greek biographer Plutarch (ca. 45–120 AD) who described Alexander as blond and blue-eyed:

Alexander had light skin, blond hair, and melting blue eyes. A sweet natural fragrance came from his body, so strong that it perfumed his clothes."

This was somehow corroborated by the Greek historian Lucius Flavius Arrianus 'Xenophon' (ca. 86 - 160), who described Alexander as:The strong, handsome commander with one eye dark as the night and one blue as the sky It is therefore possible that Alexander had one brown eye and one blue eye.

Anyway I would give more credibility to the two Greek historians, because they were Greek intellectuals, while the person(s) who made the mosaic was a Roman artist, and artists aren't usually known for their historical accuracies.

Plutarch's (Alexander, 4.2) actual words are:

"Apelles de grafon ton keraunoforon ouk emimisato tin chroan, alla faioteronkai pepinomenon epoisen. In de lefkos, os fasin oi de lefkotisepefoinissen aftou peri to stithos malista kai to prosopon…"

"Lefkos" in fact means, "light", "bright", or "brilliant", not "blonde" and that's why translators don't use "blonde" as that would generally be "xanthos". You can refer to the Liddell Scott Lexicon for reference.

As for the eyes, I know I have read it before, but I don't believe it's in Arrian. If you know where exactly I'd like to see.

Also, bear in mind that the Roman mosaic is supposedly a faithful original of a near contemporary original. I don't necessarily agree that it is an exact likeness, but it is plausibly the only eyewitness (if accurate) we may have.

Nikas
25-11-11, 09:30
Because descending from Hercules, a mythological figure, is less absurd in your eyes ?!

Plutarch, Alexander 2.1:

"On his father's side Alexander was descended from Hercules through Caranus, and on his mother's from Aeacus through Neoptolemus: so much is accepted by all authorities without question."

Just saying… :)

DTG
17-12-11, 12:12
Is it possible that the ancient Macedonians belonged to Haplogroup I2a?

Yaan
17-12-11, 12:19
I think E(V13) or I2a or J2b. The lightest people in Bulgarian and Macedonia come from E(V13) regions the darkest from R1b and J2 regions. Plus we can not be sure, how he looked. Also I think R1b and R1a in the Balkan are of Slavic,Central Asian and Celtic origin.
E(V13),J2b and to a lesser extend G2a, J2 and I2a are the real Balkan groups.

razor
17-12-11, 14:43
Don't forget that according to the latest studies (Verenich/Nordtvedt) the Balkan I2a is primarily of relatively recent Slavic origin. Which of course does not preclude the presence of an earlier I2a. We won't know for sure until the I2a study group embarks on its long expected WTY processes in the hope of unearthing new SNP's for this most numerous of current I2a's. We could be in for interesting surprises.

Yaan
17-12-11, 15:17
I agree with you that I2a is mostly Slavic.I am one of the people that think Slavs were I2a and less R1a.The ancient Thracian and Macedonians according to me me mostly E(V13) and J2b people.
It is so racist and untrue to say that E(V13) and J2b people were ruled by the powerful R1b people.I do not believe this for a second. In Bulgaria R1b is found mostly among Turks and Bulgarians from the North east which support the theory that it is Central Asian(In Bulgaria). I mean before the German invasion Western Europe was not ruled by R1b let aside the Balkan. As for R1a I think in the Balkan it is Central Asian and Slavic.
Original Balkan people were E(V13) and J2b. Hellenic did have R1b. Alexander always saw a connection to Ancient Egypt! One more point for E(V13).

LeBrok
17-12-11, 19:29
Alexander always saw a connection to Ancient Egypt! One more point for E(V13).
Maybe through R1b, cousin king Tut?
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25663-Pharaoh-Tutankhamun-Akhenaten-and-Amenhotep-III-were-R1b



It is so racist and untrue to say that E(V13) and J2b people were ruled by the powerful R1b people.
To acknowledge state of affairs from the past, like dominance R1b or R1a tribes in parts of Europe, shouldn't make anyone racist.
Just because someone was racist in the past doesn't make you racist, even if you talk about this.

What can make anyone racist, is when a person wants his/her tribe to dominate, and this person hates other tribes.

Yaan
17-12-11, 20:24
In the Balkan R1b never dominate!E(V13) and J2b in the ancient time,then they together with J2,R1a and I2a!
R1b is the haplogroup of the common people in the West Europe, they did not really dominate there either the Frnech Kings were G2a! I just point out the true! R1b is about as important in the Balkan as I2a in Holland!

Yaan
17-12-11, 20:25
Also about King Tut, it means nothing and maybe it is not even true! Ancient Egyptians were mostly T and E(V12)!

Yetos
17-12-11, 22:03
In the Balkan R1b never dominate!E(V13) and J2b in the ancient time,then they together with J2,R1a and I2a!
R1b is the haplogroup of the common people in the West Europe, they did not really dominate there either the Frnech Kings were G2a! I just point out the true! R1b is about as important in the Balkan as I2a in Holland!

there also minor asian R1b like L40 which is characteristic of area,

Yaan
17-12-11, 22:13
Yes of course,but R1b is not big in Bulgarians,Macedonians,Serbs, Montenegrin,Boshniaks. Croats and Slovenians have some more probably thought Germanic admixture, and Greeks and Albanians have a lot due to the Hellenics.
I think ancient Greeks were R1b and J2b people ,with also E(V13).

Kitty
05-04-12, 07:10
for he was fair and of a light color, passing into ruddiness in his face and upon his breast.

Greetings, everyone. I stumbled across this interesting site because of my research into Alexander the Great for a fiction manuscript. For reasons far too long to discuss here, I'm researching the possible makeup of his DNA (I've settled on R1b1b2).

The explanation I heard recently of the above quote (sorry, I can't remember who came up with it, and I've been racking my brain!!) is that the first mention, fair, is of his hair colour, the second, light color, is of his skin. It makes sense to me; why mention colouring twice if it relates to the same characteristic? So I consider him a blonde.

Back to Alexander's DNA; for the sake of my manuscript, I have his haplogoup as a subclade thought to be extinct in the modern population. Is this even a possiblity? Would an extinct haplogroup be detectable to scientists, and would they be able to identify the approximate era he lived, just from his DNA? Please forgive me if these questions seem silly or ignorant, I'm a writer/artist, and science, let alone genetics, is not my strong suit.

Thank you for any assistance you can provide.

sparkey
05-04-12, 17:23
Greetings, everyone. I stumbled across this interesting site because of my research into Alexander the Great for a fiction manuscript. For reasons far too long to discuss here, I'm researching the possible makeup of his DNA (I've settled on R1b1b2).

The explanation I heard recently of the above quote (sorry, I can't remember who came up with it, and I've been racking my brain!!) is that the first mention, fair, is of his hair colour, the second, light color, is of his skin. It makes sense to me; why mention colouring twice if it relates to the same characteristic? So I consider him a blonde.

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to do here... genetic fiction? If you're trying to make, say, a Northwestern European connection for Alexander in your fiction, you may want to be more precise than "R1b1b2," because there are some subclades that are much more common in Asia and Eastern Europe. The typically Western/Central European subclade is R1b-L11. I don't know what the full name of that is in the naming scheme you're using, but you can see how it relates to others on Maciamo's R1b page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml) (where he uses a different naming scheme than you).


Back to Alexander's DNA; for the sake of my manuscript, I have his haplogoup as a subclade thought to be extinct in the modern population. Is this even a possiblity?

It's technically a possibility, but it's not all that likely for someone who lived in the Classical Age. It's much more likely for individuals who lived prior to the Neolithic... a long time earlier. It also depends heavily on how precise the subclade is... an extinct branch of R1b-U152 is much more likely than an extinct branch of R1b-L23.


Would an extinct haplogroup be detectable to scientists, and would they be able to identify the approximate era he lived, just from his DNA?

They would have to test all known SNPs to confirm that he doesn't have any beyond the last one he has in common with modern people, then look for new ones, find at least one new one, and ensure that no living person who has tested has it (which can be assisted by STR comparisons). It sounds complicated, but it's actually done regularly even for non-famous people, so I'm sure scientists would be willing to undertake the task for Alexander.

Scientists would be able to estimate the age of his extinct clade, but that would be before the time he lived, which they wouldn't be able to estimate just by his STRs and SNPs.

Kitty
05-04-12, 19:52
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your time, and I guess I need to provide more context. The plot of my manuscript is the remains of Alexander are found and a British geneticist clones him. His ancient memories are intact, he's still Alexander (I know, this would never happen in reality, but this is fiction). He tries to fit in, with his real identity a secret, but later in the story, someone high up in British law enforcement becomes suspicious about him, suspects what might have happened, and steals a DNA sample. When the man takes the sample to be tested, I'm trying to determine what the scientist would tell him. It's critical to the story that the scientist confirm that the DNA sample comes from an ancient man, which is why I was thinking about Alexander having an extinct subclade. The scientist doesn't have to go into great detail, just a few sentences that are scientifically realistic, and I don't want to make things up. That's bad writing.

Could his DNA be confirmed as ancient? If not, how could I possibly work around this?

sparkey
05-04-12, 19:57
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your time, and I guess I need to provide more context. The plot of my manuscript is the remains of Alexander are found and a British geneticist clones him. His ancient memories are intact, he's still Alexander (I know, this would never happen in reality, but this is fiction). He tries to fit in, with his real identity a secret, but later in the story, someone high up in British law enforcement becomes suspicious about him, suspects what might have happened, and steals a DNA sample. When the man takes the sample to be tested, I'm trying to determine what the scientist would tell him. It's critical to the story that the scientist confirm that the DNA sample comes from an ancient man, which is why I was thinking about Alexander having an extinct subclade. The scientist doesn't have to go into great detail, just a few sentences that are scientifically realistic, and I don't want to make things up. That's bad writing.

Could his DNA be confirmed as ancient? If not, how could I possibly work around this?

Oh, I get it. It would make more sense if the scientist said something like: "His haplotype is closer to his subclade modal than any other that we've seen. It must be ancient." (The idea being that it's not necessarily extinct, but that it hasn't had as long to mutate away from the original.)

zanipolo
05-04-12, 21:02
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your time, and I guess I need to provide more context. The plot of my manuscript is the remains of Alexander are found and a British geneticist clones him. His ancient memories are intact, he's still Alexander (I know, this would never happen in reality, but this is fiction). He tries to fit in, with his real identity a secret, but later in the story, someone high up in British law enforcement becomes suspicious about him, suspects what might have happened, and steals a DNA sample. When the man takes the sample to be tested, I'm trying to determine what the scientist would tell him. It's critical to the story that the scientist confirm that the DNA sample comes from an ancient man, which is why I was thinking about Alexander having an extinct subclade. The scientist doesn't have to go into great detail, just a few sentences that are scientifically realistic, and I don't want to make things up. That's bad writing.

Could his DNA be confirmed as ancient? If not, how could I possibly work around this?

If you can get the vatican to allow to test the bones of St.mark in venice, we can see if they are not from 100AD but from 300BC , then they are the bones of Alexander the great.
http://www.rense.com/general53/romb.htm

This 400 years would be easy to analyse. The hard part is the church.

LeBrok
06-04-12, 03:51
Thank you for your reply. I appreciate your time, and I guess I need to provide more context. The plot of my manuscript is the remains of Alexander are found and a British geneticist clones him. His ancient memories are intact, he's still Alexander (I know, this would never happen in reality, but this is fiction). He tries to fit in, with his real identity a secret, but later in the story, someone high up in British law enforcement becomes suspicious about him, suspects what might have happened, and steals a DNA sample. When the man takes the sample to be tested, I'm trying to determine what the scientist would tell him. It's critical to the story that the scientist confirm that the DNA sample comes from an ancient man, which is why I was thinking about Alexander having an extinct subclade. The scientist doesn't have to go into great detail, just a few sentences that are scientifically realistic, and I don't want to make things up. That's bad writing.

Could his DNA be confirmed as ancient? If not, how could I possibly work around this?

It is an intriguing idea with a great potential, good luck.

What do you mean that his ancient memories are intact? He remembers his past life?
If this is what you meant then you don't need to worry too much about the rest not being "scientifically realistic". :)

Genetically speaking, if you clone him again, he will be most likely a very similar person. Strong leader, megalomaniac, great tactician, ambitious, maybe egoistic, smart, loving war, fighting, sports, explore and discover, etc.
Let's say he is cloned by some british rebels, or Irish, gets into main life and becomes top general in British army, he does a military coup and becomes a dictator, then he tries to rebuild British Empire. Of course he destroys the rebels he came from as not needed and of different goals. At some point he learns he is a clone of Alexander. He conquers Balkans with Macedonia, and in the last seen he discovers his grave or his father grave and cries on his grave " Look father, I did it! I went to the end of the Earth/world this time!

Kitty
06-04-12, 06:40
Oh, I get it. It would make more sense if the scientist said something like: "His haplotype is closer to his subclade modal than any other that we've seen. It must be ancient." (The idea being that it's not necessarily extinct, but that it hasn't had as long to mutate away from the original.)
Thank you so much, this is good! It gives just enough realistic scientific info without making the average reader's eyes glaze over. :wink:


If you can get the vatican to allow to test the bones of St.mark in venice, we can see if they are not from 100AD but from 300BC , then they are the bones of Alexander the great.
This 400 years would be easy to analyse. The hard part is the church.
I've heard this theory, but I think it's a reach. Alexander's remains are probably lost to us, destroyed during the Christian riots, but I hope I'm wrong!


It is an intriguing idea with a great potential, good luck.
What do you mean that his ancient memories are intact? He remembers his past life?
Thank you, and yes, he does remember his ancient life--he's still the same man--trying to fit in, and faced with all the problems of our modern world.



Let's say he is cloned by some british rebels, or Irish, gets into main life and becomes top general in British army, he does a military coup and becomes a dictator, then he tries to rebuild British Empire. Of course he destroys the rebels he came from as not needed and of different goals. At some point he learns he is a clone of Alexander. He conquers Balkans with Macedonia, and in the last seen he discovers his grave or his father grave and cries on his grave " Look father, I did it! I went to the end of the Earth/world this time!

My Alexander is a little more tame than that, because today's world wouldn't tolerate his aggression, but over the course of the three sequels I've written, he does rise to prominence again.

LeBrok
06-04-12, 07:46
Thank you, and yes, he does remember his ancient life--he's still the same man--trying to fit in, and faced with all the problems of our modern world.
Well, then I would have a little problem believing in this "science" in your fiction. It is rather basic scientific knowledge that DNA can't store living memories, it is our brain domain. As much as I like science fiction I would have a hard time getting over this premise.




My Alexander is a little more tame than that, because today's world wouldn't tolerate his aggression, but over the course of the three sequels I've written, he does rise to prominence again.
You might have a psychological problem here. If he remembers all the past, his past behaviour, actions, and also aggression, likings, love, hate, excitement,bravery, domination, killings etc, then how come he can be tamed today? Having a copy of real Alexander with same character traits and with all his memories you wouldn't be able to make him a different man. If you did he would have been very unhappy and depressed living as an ordinary man, just reminiscing how bravely he sent thousand men to death on battlefield and gang raped whole village of women, and not only, if the whole legend of him is right. Also possibly, growing in today's tamed, peaceful and feminine world, he would feel extremely guilty of his actions of the past life, maybe getting suicidal often. Heck, he might have been prosecuted for genocides, murders, rapes, arson of whole cities, slavery, cruelty to animals, the list goes on.
There is also another unforeseen consequences of withholding memories of past life. Knowing that this is possible, scientists would clone other figures from past to gain knowledge of past events, rewriting the world histories and deromanticizing our past and legends.
What if someone brought Genghis Khan to life? Would he love to fight Alexander to finely figure out who was the best warrior in the world? Maybe it would culminate in Armageddon?
It's a bit of slippery slope, or Pandora box you opened.

I really would change the memory in DNA in science fiction to fantasy realm, and lets say, that the Spirit of Alexander came back to his cloned body, thinking correctly that this is the same Alexander (genetically speaking) and brought memories of past life back with it.

Sorry for "critiquing" to much, but I was in the mood. :)
All the best.

Kitty
06-04-12, 08:59
Well, then I would have a little problem believing in this "science" in your fiction. It is rather basic scientific knowledge that DNA can't store living memories, it is our brain domain. As much as I like science fiction I would have a hard time getting over this premise.
Hi, fellow Calgarian! :wavey: (I just noticed where you're from.) As I said in a previous post, this would never happen, and it's the only liberty I've taken in what I hope is an otherwise realistic presentation of what his life would be like. If nothing else, I feel that Alexander was adaptable to whatever situation he found himself in and, having acquired a passion for biology and medicine from Aristotle, I've made him a doctor, with him channelling his energy into saving lives to make up for those lost at his hands.


If you did he would have been very unhappy and depressed living as an ordinary man, just reminiscing how bravely he sent thousand men to death on battlefield and gang raped whole village of women, and not only, if the whole legend of him is right. Also possibly, growing in today's tamed, peaceful and feminine world, he would feel extremely guilty of his actions of the past life, maybe getting suicidal often.
Here we disagree. Alexander was very chivalrous toward women, treated the women of Darius' family with the upmost of respect, and outlawed the rape of woman by his soldiers. Darius' mother grew to adore him so much that, not only did she adopt him but, upon his death, she starved herself to death. I'm unable to paste the link to a website that touches on how well he treated women, or I would. It's from Digital Attic - Warfare Alexander the Great, and I'll quote it here:

There were also several incidents in which Alexander demonstrated his compassion towards women: After the battle of Issus, the mother, wife and children of Darius were captured, and they grieved, believing that Darius had been killed in battle. Alexander, however, told them that Darius was still alive (he had fled the battle), and that they would be treated as queens. When Darius' soldiers came to rescue Darius' mother, she even refused to leave, and after Alexander died she mourned his demise and fasted to death. Alexander loathed the rape and abuse of women, a quite remarkable view at that time, when women were considered legitimate spoils of war (10). On one noteworthy occasion, he was offered 100 armed girls by the viceroy of Media, but he dismissed them from the army, fearing that they might get violated.

From alanfildes,com:
Alexander's attitude to women was unusual in the extreme, and no doubt influenced by his formidable mother, he treated them with great respect. He regarded rape as a particularly terrible crime which was punished severely. Stating that the perpetrators "should be put to death as wild beasts which prey upon mankind", he immediately freed the Theban woman Tomocleia after she had murdered the soldier who had raped her.


Heck, he might have been prosecuted for genocides, murders, rapes, arson of whole cities, slavery, cruelty to animals, the list goes on.
You're judging him by today's morality, not by the ethics of his time, which is unfair. And I've never read where he was cruel to animals. In fact, I've read the opposite, that he loved animals. If you're including the sacrificing of animals to his gods, people do strange things in the name of religion. Such were the times.


There is also another unforeseen consequences of withholding memories of past life. Knowing that this is possible, scientists would clone other figures from past to gain knowledge of past events, rewriting the world histories and deromanticizing our past and legends.
What if someone brought Genghis Khan to life? Would he love to fight Alexander to finely figure out who was the best warrior in the world? Maybe it would culminate in Armageddon?
But they'd need his remains to clone! :-p

Boss
30-08-12, 07:42
Lol I find it hilarious that my thread on this Northern nobility hypothesis was deleted when in fact an admin is voicing such views on here.

No need to be so sensitive.

Maciamo
30-08-12, 09:00
Lol I find it hilarious that my thread on this Northern nobility hypothesis was deleted when in fact an admin is voicing such views on here.

No need to be so sensitive.

For the record, I didn't delete your thread about "Northern" elites in Greece and Rome (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27404-quot-Northern-quot-elites-in-Greece-and-Rome). It must have been one of the moderators. I am also surprised since, after reading it now, I have to say that I find no reason for its deletion and I have restored it.

EDIT : I have just added my comments in your thread.

kamani
13-12-12, 21:50
I would guess y-dna R1b, but his DNA as a whole must have been a mix of E-v13, R1b, G, I, and J2 people. So he would have the look of thessaly greeks or albanians.

Bodric
13-02-13, 22:18
blue eyes?

can we have a source

cause that is at least with late proven a myth

blonde as a grey-blonde it was after his mother,
Olympias is mentioned blond

But Phillip had curly hair as also alexander
body type of Phillip was short with thick shoulders,
that type (phillip) can be found in eteocretans in thessaly in areas north of athens and in mountain epirus
Here were I live you can find many especially in the villages that are ancient

R1a people are blonde but have straight hairs
R1b is possible but at least in Greece they are not that blonde
G and J is possible cause they have curly hairs and bodytype like alexander

the European kings story of the 3 R1b R1a and G2a in case of Alexander I believe it goes either G either R1b
also in a J there is possibility
the R1a I do not exclude but the bodytype is not according R1a peoples not even the face,

the bones of Makedonian exist. in fact in the Vergina tombs we have even skin but there is a debate among phillip's or alexander IV
also there is a looted tomb, which according many archaiologists might be Olympias tomb in Pudna
for me the case goes either to G and j and after R1b and last the R1a
the case of I and especially of I2a2 is not for discuss cause all makedonian kings were shorts

i still want to hear of Blond Makedonians with blue eyes,
while Phillip was the opposite (maybe the shorter King)

I read this with great concern man..

Blonde - straight hair - blue eyes = R1a ?

Dude don't be so insecure and fixed to genetics.

I have green/brown eyes, brown hair and I'm almost 186 cm. According to this info I'm not slavic or IE or whatever u think correlates with the features but some other thing?

I can tell u I have a R1a lineage that is common with czechs afaik from my genome maps.

I'm not blonde or blue eyed but still slavic. My sisters blonde/blue eyes though and our mother.

Edit; I'd say he was either E or R1a. But as someone stated modern region around Pella is hell of a mixed due to slavs and other nations invading it etc.

Yetos
13-02-13, 23:49
I read this with great concern man..

Blonde - straight hair - blue eyes = R1a ?

Dude don't be so insecure and fixed to genetics.

I have green/brown eyes, brown hair and I'm almost 186 cm. According to this info I'm not slavic or IE or whatever u think correlates with the features but some other thing?

I can tell u I have a R1a lineage that is common with czechs afaik from my genome maps.

I'm not blonde or blue eyed but still slavic. My sisters blonde/blue eyes though and our mother.

Edit; I'd say he was either E or R1a. But as someone stated modern region around Pella is hell of a mixed due to slavs and other nations invading it etc.


SO the Albanian Kesi change ID and country now he plays it Serb?

Kesi go with your friend Zeus to find more Loan words in ALbanian

Ahahahaha

KESI ALEXANDER THE GREAT WAS GREEK, NOT ALBANIAN, SO BACK ABOVE JISSAREK LINE OR SUB-SAHARA WHERE YOU CAME FROM.

Bodric
14-02-13, 09:47
SO the Albanian Kesi change ID and country now he plays it Serb?

Kesi go with your friend Zeus to find more Loan words in ALbanian

Ahahahaha

KESI ALEXANDER THE GREAT WAS GREEK, NOT ALBANIAN, SO BACK ABOVE JISSAREK LINE OR SUB-SAHARA WHERE YOU CAME FROM.

Dude I'm serb? Don't be schizophrenic. I don't speak albanian nor do I speak greek.

Alexander the great was a macedonian greek, so what? When did I dispute this?

albanopolis
23-02-13, 02:08
Alexander was E V13. It seems that E v13 is the halogroup of mad men. Was'nt Hitler E v13, Bonoparte, and Musolini? Why Alexander should be diffrent?

kamani
23-02-13, 04:53
Alexander was E V13. It seems that E v13 is the halogroup of mad men. Was'nt Hitler E v13, Bonoparte, and Musolini? Why Alexander should be diffrent?

Napoleon was E1b1b1c1*, which is the EZ-830 branch, together with Einstein.

Alexandros
23-02-13, 13:28
How do you know that? Have you been there? Evidence on blond hair and blue eyes exists in ancient Greek scripts. The issue here is that some people have some stereotypes (i.e. Greeks are dark-skinned, dark-haired) and they go with that. Of course many ancient Greeks did have dark skin. They lived in temperatures of up to 40°C in the summer! However, if you know anything about Greek history, you will know that the Mycenaean Greeks who came from the North and established the first proper Greek civilization, were R1a people (i.e. blonde, unless you believe that modern day Russians are also dark-skinned). Also, the Dorians who arrived some 300 years later, were also probably mainly blonde people (ancient R1b). If you go to Greece today, you will see many people with blond hair and blue eyes, especially in the Macedonia region of North Greece, where the proportions of dark skin/hair to fair skin/hair are almost 50-50%. Therefore, Alexander the Great and any other Greek of that period could had easily been blonde.

Beast
20-05-13, 11:39
Alexander was E V13. It seems that E v13 is the halogroup of mad men. Was'nt Hitler E v13, Bonoparte, and Musolini? Why Alexander should be diffrent?

Hitler nor bonaparte were EV-13, but they were E, just another subclade. it was the wright brothers that were EV-13. and if i remember correctly they were from around Essex, studies have shown EV-13 to of been found there.. I read a paper that this haplogroup is believed to of arrived there from Illyrian/Thracian soldiers that were in the Roman army.

Yetos
20-05-13, 11:53
Hitler nor bonaparte were EV-13, but they were E, just another subclade. it was the wright brothers that were EV-13. and if i remember correctly they were from around Essex, studies have shown EV-13 to of been found there.. I read a paper that this haplogroup is believed to of arrived there from Illyrian/Thracian soldiers that were in the Roman army.

Fantastic,

Do you have the Link? or is personal study?

can you help more by post the link?

Beast
20-05-13, 12:10
Fantastic,

Do you have the Link? or is personal study?

can you help more by post the link?

I've read many papers about this, that I didn't find again, one was called Illyrican soldiery in britain or something; but here is one I found,

http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm

also on haplogroup E in this site it says the wright brothers were EV-13, and they were originally from london area.

and also a J2 subclade, the same as in balkan I think was found. correct me if i read wrong.

E and J in britain, it's believed to be from Thracian, Dacian and Illyrian soldiers in the Roman army. the place where this E was found was also the same place where thracian, dacian and illyrian soldiers were stationed.

Beast
20-05-13, 12:16
How do you know that? Have you been there? Evidence on blond hair and blue eyes exists in ancient Greek scripts. The issue here is that some people have some stereotypes (i.e. Greeks are dark-skinned, dark-haired) and they go with that. Of course many ancient Greeks did have dark skin. They lived in temperatures of up to 40°C in the summer! However, if you know anything about Greek history, you will know that the Mycenaean Greeks who came from the North and established the first proper Greek civilization, were R1a people (i.e. blonde, unless you believe that modern day Russians are also dark-skinned). Also, the Dorians who arrived some 300 years later, were also probably mainly blonde people (ancient R1b). If you go to Greece today, you will see many people with blond hair and blue eyes, especially in the Macedonia region of North Greece, where the proportions of dark skin/hair to fair skin/hair are almost 50-50%. Therefore, Alexander the Great and any other Greek of that period could had easily been blonde.

I really doubt alexander the great was nordic blonde. more like light brown haired... which is considered blond in the balkans. we also have nordic blonds but it's more rare, but common among children but as they grow up they become darker, it's normal in caucasian children.

Yetos
20-05-13, 13:34
I've read many papers about this, that I didn't find again, one was called Illyrican soldiery in britain or something; but here is one I found,

http://www.jogg.info/32/bird.htm

also on haplogroup E in this site it says the wright brothers were EV-13, and they were originally from london area.

and also a J2 subclade, the same as in balkan I think was found. correct me if i read wrong.

E and J in britain, it's believed to be from Thracian, Dacian and Illyrian soldiers in the Roman army. the place where this E was found was also the same place where thracian, dacian and illyrian soldiers were stationed.

It says mainly M78 which is parental of -V13
M78 in Balkans is rare limited to south Greece only,
remember Britain was colonised by Phoenicians, which also are carriers of E and J and rich in M78 which is very rare in Balkans, (only 2 found in S Greece, 0 in rest of Balkans)

adamo
20-05-13, 15:34
Britain was colonized by the Phoenicians? Where did you get that one from

Yetos
20-05-13, 17:11
Britain was colonized by the Phoenicians? Where did you get that one from

here in this forum,

after carthago Phonicians colonise Iberia and Britain.

The Phoenicians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia) were the major trading (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade) power (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_in_international_relations) in the Mediterranean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean_Sea) in the early part of the first millennium BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1st_millennium_BC). They had trading contacts in Egypt (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt) and Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece), and established colonies as far west as modern Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain), at Gadir (modern Cádiz (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C%C3%A1diz)). From Gadir they controlled access to the Atlantic Ocean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantic_Ocean) and the trade routes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade_route) to Britain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Britain). The most famous and successful of Phoenician colonies was Kart-Hadasht (Qart-ḥadašt, literally "New Town"), a colony founded from Tyre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon). It would eventually be known as Carthage (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage).


For identifying distinct Phoenicians male genetic traces in nowadays contemporary populations, Zalloua studied sites influenced by the Phoenicians on the basis of well-recorded historical documents, from which Y-chromosomal material was sampled, in conjunction with comparative data from the literature. Of the counterparts used were the coastal Lebanese heartland versus the rest of the Levant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Levant) (Phoenician periphery), Phoenician Mediterranean colonies versus Phoenician trading centers, and trading centers versus Phoenician non-influenced sites sharing distance proximity. The research drew a conclusion upon the given and was that haplogroup J2, for the most part, and the six Y-STR (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y-STR) haplotypes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplotypes), in particular, exhibited the Phoenician distinguishable signature. Haplotypes PCS1+, a Phoenician colonization signal, through PCS6+ therefore represent lineages that have likely been spread by the Phoenicians.[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#cite_note-Zalloua_2008-23)
In spite the fact that each STR+ comprises colonies established at distinct geographical sites across the Mediterranean, each remains rooted with high frequencies in the Phoenician heartland. This argues for a joint source of related lineages deep-rooted in Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon).[23]

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#cite_note-Zalloua_2008-23) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#cite_note-Zalloua_2008-23)Strabo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strabo) states that there was a highly lucrative Phoenician trade with Britain for tin.
From elsewhere, they obtained other materials, perhaps the most important being (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#cite_note-Zalloua_2008-23)silver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver) from the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula) and tin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin) from Great Britain, the latter of which when smelted with copper from Cyprus created the durable metal alloy bronze.

http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/hd/phoe/hd_phoe.htm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenicia#cite_note-Zalloua_2008-23)

Sea traders from Phoenicia and Carthage (a Phoenician colony traditionally founded in 814 B.C.) even ventured beyond the Strait of Gibraltar as far as Britain in search of tin.

LeBrok
20-05-13, 17:43
here in this forum,
Sea traders from Phoenicia and Carthage (a Phoenician colony traditionally founded in 814 B.C.) even ventured beyond the Strait of Gibraltar as far as Britain in search of tin.


remember Britain was colonised by Phoenicians,
There is a big difference between colonization and sporadic visits (or one trading post).

Yetos
20-05-13, 18:22
There is a big difference between colonization and sporadic visits (or one trading post).

Zanipolo had posted and discused more in this forum, But I am not in mood to find it,

in Britain they found Iberian/Phoenician settlements

Fire Haired
24-06-13, 12:06
Which HG Could Alexander the great most probably be?Thank you!

since alexander the great was macidonean and when compared to Greeks and macidonens today my guess is he most lilkley had either Y DNA I2a1b which is teh most popular Y DNA haplogroup in southeastern europe and most popular one in macidonia and used to be the most popular Y DNA haplogroup in eastern europe before Indo European inavsion

here is a link that explains it http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/28817-Y-DNA-mtDNA-Hair-color-and-Eye-color-in-ethnic-groups-of-pre-Indo-European-Europe

also a 2,500 year old Egyptien mummy had Y DNA I2a1b and this was in the time of Greek influence the second most likley Y DNA haplogroup he had i think is either R1a1a1b1, R1b L150, R1b L23, or E1b1b V13 Y DNA R1a1a1b1 is from Indo Europeans alexander was from a high ranking mascedonian family his father was buried in a kurgen a traditional high ranking indo european burail if his family had always been high rank there is a very good chance he had R1a1a1b1

silkyslovanbojkovsky
21-08-13, 19:09
Mycenaean Greeks most likely Had a lot of R1a, so if he was like you said descendants of the ruling class, I think his chances would be higher for R1a than R1b.

Noman
21-08-13, 21:29
y-dna haplogroups in Greek-Macedonia (256 samples):
R1a = 45 (17.6%)
R1b = 34 (13.3%)
I = 56 (21.9%)
E1b = 53 (20.7%)
J2 = 36 (14.1%)
G = 12 ( 4.7%)

What makes you think that Alexander could not belong to I or E1b1b haplogroups which are the most common in modern day Greek Macedonians? And why should he be R1b1b2?

He had blonde hair so he was probably not e1b, which is undoubtedly a legacy of the huge number of jews to move to constantinople in byzantine times. The J2 was probably mostly settled there during ottoman empire times, especially the ciscassians and huge amounts of other georgian and crimean peoples, who were used to police the empire and especially the christians.

The r1as came down to invade the pre-classic greeks, before that they were just barbarians. So since he's blonde then I will go with I, though g or another possibility that could be the case.

RHAS
23-08-13, 13:02
Which HG Could Alexander the great most probably be?Thank you!

"The Saluja’s have been a dynamic and mobile group of business people and professionals from North India. They hail from the region north of the river Jhelum, that divides the Jhelum & Gujrat districts, an area along the Salt mines (now in Pakistan). Historical records indicate that Alexander the Great of Macedonia came to India (326 B.C) crossing the Khyber Pass to Taxila near Rawalpindi. Alexander advanced to the northwest bank of the river Jhelum to the village of Haranpur, where allegedly the Macedonians set up their base camp prior to the battle with King Porus. It is quite conceivable that people from that area of North India particularly Haranpur, Jalalpur & surroundings to have Genes of people from Greece. In fact, DNA Analysis suggests that Saluja’s belong to the DNA Haplogroup J2b, which has its origin in Greece. J2b (M12, M314, M221, M102), and is mainly found in the Balkans, Greece, Italy, and India (possibly from Neolithic Greeks)*****J2b1 (M205) - formerly J2b1b. The Saluja family history can be traced directly to this historical melting pot."
Migration of Indians Across Continents spanning generations: A Case History of the Saluja Family.
http://www.amazon.com/Migration-Indians-Continents-spanning-generations/dp/0615469035 (http://www.amazon.com/Migration-Indians-Continents-spanning-generations/dp/0615469035)

"Both E-V13 and J-M12 have also been used in studies seeking to find evidence of a remaining Greek presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan, going back to the time of Alexander the Great."
Wikipedia.org - Haplogroup E V-68.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68_(Y-DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E-V68_(Y-DNA)

"In which country did Mr. J2b2 live? Did Mr. J2b2 live in the Balkans and then his descendants move to India. Or was was it that Mr. J2b2 lived in India and then his descendants moved to the Balkans. One of the theories is that Mr. J2b2's descendant were part of Alexander the Greats army which made itself all the way to India."
Barr-Kumarakulasinghe’s and other families.
http://barrkumar.com/dna/whats_j2b2.html (http://barrkumar.com/dna/whats_j2b2.html)

"Several authors have proposed that the Indo-European language presently spoken by Armenians arose during the Bronze Age, when Indo-European speaking tribes from the Balkans and Greece invaded Anatolia and Transcaucasia, leading to the subsequent spread of their culture and language. In this study, we have detected a number of lineages that are prominent in the Balkans (I2*, I2b*, J2b1 and J2b2) at low levels throughout Ararat Valley, Gardman and Lake Van, the latter of which also contains haplogroups commonly associated with Bronze Age Greece (ie, J2a8-M319 (4.9%), and E1b1b1-M78 and its sublineages (3.9%)). While this may suggest genetic input from early Greek or Phrygian tribes, it is also possible that these low levels of Balkan lineages arrived in Armenia at a later time, such as during one of the many incursions into the area during the reign of the Macedonian, Roman and Byzantine empires."
Neolithic patrilineal signals indicate that the Armenian plateau was repopulated by agriculturalists.
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html (http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v20/n3/full/ejhg2011192a.html)

"The political influence of Seleucid and Bactrian dynastic Greeks over northwest India, for example, persisted for several centuries after the invasion of the army of Alexander the Great."
The Genetic Heritage of the Earliest Settlers Persists Both in Indian Tribal and Caste Populations.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707605412 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0002929707605412)

"J2a is also present in Egypt which was conquered by Macedonian Greeks, as well as Iran, but drops to a small frequency in India, and is there limited to the upper castes. This may reflect its presence in the ancient Indo-Aryans and its survival in the Brahmin caste, or alternatively may be the result of intermarriage between the Bactrian Greek aristocracy and high-class Hindus."
Dienekes Anthropology Blog, 2005.
http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2005/12/did-haplogroup-j2a1-originate-in.html (http://dienekes.blogspot.nl/2005/12/did-haplogroup-j2a1-originate-in.html)

"Haplogroup J2b-M12 was frequent in Thessaly and Greek Macedonia while haplogroup J2a-M410 was scarce."
Differential Y-chromosome Anatolian Influences on the Greek and Cretan Neolithic, 2008.
http://www.atlascom.gr/HELLENIC_DNA_PAPER.PDF (http://www.atlascom.gr/HELLENIC_DNA_PAPER.PDF)

Noman
23-08-13, 21:35
"If the Macedonian elite descended from the Macedonian branch of the Indo-Europeans, and ["if" implied] the elite kept a strict apartheid with the conquered population until the time of Alexander (possible considering that Hindus have managed to do it for the last 4500 years), then the most likely haplogroups for Alexander the Great and other ancient Macedonian nobility was R1a1a, R1b1b2 or G2a3b1."


But for starters alexander the great is a barabarian, from macedonia, not greece at all. There's no evidence to say r1a had been there until then (or that to then they had been any big force of any kind), but the macedonians had been established a while. Long story short r1a just got there, and his description sounds more nordic than it does slavic, so I don't think he is r1a.

silkyslovanbojkovsky
31-08-13, 01:10
He had blonde hair so he was probably not e1b, which is undoubtedly a legacy of the huge number of jews to move to constantinople in byzantine times. The J2 was probably mostly settled there during ottoman empire times, especially the ciscassians and huge amounts of other georgian and crimean peoples, who were used to police the empire and especially the christians.

The r1as came down to invade the pre-classic greeks, before that they were just barbarians. So since he's blonde then I will go with I, though g or another possibility that could be the case.

what a ridiculous statement, Jews brought e1b and ottomons J2? what kind of hidden agenda do you have?

Noman
31-08-13, 01:26
what a ridiculous statement, Jews brought e1b and ottomons J2? what kind of hidden agenda do you have?

The ridiculous statement is to think j2 correlates to the greeks. You can see clearly that I haplogroup has been pushed west from greece and r1a came down out of the north in bronze age collapse. There's also tons of artifacts showing the pre-classic greeks were nothing like modern greeks or classic greeks. The modern greeks and classic greeks and pre-classic greeks are absolutely nothing to do with each other. Zero, zip. In looks, artifacts, and DNA.

Of course jews brought e1b, that is the biggest source of it outside of middle east. It is the "semitic" component of jews, and also of berbers, and originates in the levant. The samaritans from levant and north africa got mixed in with jews (who are J) and that is your e1b. There's also some e1b in neolithic farmers but it's much rarer. In any case nobody's getting blonde hair out of e1b ancestry.

Ottomans brought in majority of the crimean population and settled them in balkans, that's most of your j2. Some of that probably comes from jews as well. It's really just history. Jews couldn't hold land anywhere, they had to work in cities so when rome collapses they moved to constantinople and spain. Later they got forced out of spain and france and moved to austria and poland en masse. When poland conquered lithuania they moved there en masse as well. They never integrated in those places because they weren't allowed to, in USA they have completely integrated.

So whatever your point is, it's wrong.

Luan
31-08-13, 01:39
The ridiculous statement is to think j2 correlates to the greeks. You can see clearly that I haplogroup has been pushed west from greece and r1a came down out of the north in bronze age collapse. There's also tons of artifacts showing the pre-classic greeks were nothing like modern greeks or classic greeks. The modern greeks and classic greeks and pre-classic greeks are absolutely nothing to do with each other. Zero, zip. In looks, artifacts, and DNA.

Of course jews brought e1b, that is the biggest source of it outside of middle east. It is the "semitic" component of jews, and also of berbers, and originates in the levant. The samaritans from levant and north africa got mixed in with jews (who are J) and that is your e1b. There's also some e1b in neolithic farmers but it's much rarer. In any case nobody's getting blonde hair out of e1b ancestry.

Ottomans brought in majority of the crimean population and settled them in balkans, that's most of your j2. Some of that probably comes from jews as well. It's really just history. Jews couldn't hold land anywhere, they had to work in cities so when rome collapses they moved to constantinople and spain. Later they got forced out of spain and france and moved to austria and poland en masse. When poland conquered lithuania they moved there en masse as well. They never integrated in those places because they weren't allowed to, in USA they have completely integrated.

So whatever your point is, it's wrong.
Your theory about E-V13 in the balkans is really rubbish.

Noman
31-08-13, 01:58
Well it's pretty simple.

Here is the aaronic jewish dna in greece. Look at map.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:HG_J1_%28ADN-Y%29.PNG

Doesn't come from anywhere but jews.

Einstein was the e1b as well.

When you take out the euro dna picked up from their local position, jews are about 50/50 for aaronic and samaritan DNA.

So to see what the ancient e1b is you take out the same amount as the aaronic y-dna first. WHOOPS! It doesn't exist anywhere but south austria and a couple other spots once you do. Math, how does it work? Well we don't expect it to because it came along with G and G basrely exists any more either.

So yes all or anyway the vast majority of that greek e1b comes from jews, not from the VERY few neolithic farmers who made it all the way into modern times with no mixing. And even then, it has the same origin. It's levant/natufian/samaritan DNA. It's semitic, in fact that's the only thing semitic about jews, where they get any semitic looks (for the ones that have it).

So basically it comes down to a lot of people trying to claim greece as having to do with their own DNA. Since I am certainly not in any of the groups involved myself I am more objective, and only care about it due to general interest in history.

Angela
31-08-13, 02:03
He had blonde hair so he was probably not e1b, which is undoubtedly a legacy of the huge number of jews to move to constantinople in byzantine times. The J2 was probably mostly settled there during ottoman empire times, especially the ciscassians and huge amounts of other georgian and crimean peoples, who were used to police the empire and especially the christians.

The r1as came down to invade the pre-classic greeks, before that they were just barbarians. So since he's blonde then I will go with I, though g or another possibility that could be the case.

What? E-V13 was in Europe in the Neolithic Age and we have the adna to prove it. Depending on whose dating you're using, they could have been in the Balkans in the Mesolithic. Other subclades of "E1b" could have been in Iberia in the Mesolithic era as well.

As for distributions in Europe, different clades have different distributions, like E-M81 in Spain, or E-V13 in Italy. Jews have a specific clade, which is also found in the Middle East.

That Cohen haplotype thing was a bust too...they found it all over the Levant.

Goodness knows, I'm not always a Wikipedia fan, but you can at least get a general idea from there.
Or look at the map here at eupedia.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#E1b1b

We haven't found adna that is J2 yet, so we don't know when it entered Europe, but the late Neolithic or the Metal Ages are a good bet. (If it was Neolithic you would think it would have turned up in one of the Neolithic sites by now.) The studies on Crete are interesting from this perspective. Also, you have to look at J2a versus J2b.

There also isn't a direct y dna phenotype correlation. Phenotypic traits (in the sense that most people think of them) aren't found in the y snps but in your autosomes. And in terms of pigmentation, there aren't all that many of them. It's a toss of the dice, although light eyes for example, are recessive, so you have to consider that as well. It has to be in the paternal and maternal lineages as well. In my husband's family, G2a, you have blonde blue-eyed people and very stereotypically Mediterranean looking people, and yet the y dna is identical. You just can't draw these kinds of strict parallels, especially not by the time you got to the classical era.

Noman
31-08-13, 03:11
What? E-V13 was in Europe in the Neolithic Age and we have the adna to prove it. Depending on whose dating you're using, they could have been in the Balkans in the Mesolithic. Other subclades of "E1b" could have been in Iberia in the Mesolithic era as well.

As for distributions in Europe, different clades have different distributions, like E-M81 in Spain, or E-V13 in Italy. Jews have a specific clade, which is also found in the Middle East.

That Cohen haplotype thing was a bust too...they found it all over the Levant.

Goodness knows, I'm not always a Wikipedia fan, but you can at least get a general idea from there.
Or look at the map here at eupedia.
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/maps_Y-DNA_haplogroups.shtml#E1b1b

We haven't found adna that is J2 yet, so we don't know when it entered Europe, but the late Neolithic or the Metal Ages are a good bet. (If it was Neolithic you would think it would have turned up in one of the Neolithic sites by now.) The studies on Crete are interesting from this perspective. Also, you have to look at J2a versus J2b.

There also isn't a direct y dna phenotype correlation. Phenotypic traits (in the sense that most people think of them) aren't found in the y snps but in your autosomes. And in terms of pigmentation, there aren't all that many of them. It's a toss of the dice, although light eyes for example, are recessive, so you have to consider that as well. It has to be in the paternal and maternal lineages as well. In my husband's family, G2a, you have blonde blue-eyed people and very stereotypically Mediterranean looking people, and yet the y dna is identical. You just can't draw these kinds of strict parallels, especially not by the time you got to the classical era.

G is probably where blue eyes originate, so I don't know why you find this fact surprising.

Sorry but not this same nonsense again. Technically anybody on earth could have blue eyes, but it's not going to come from e1b without washing out many levels because that's not where they come from. If you look at otto von hapsburg, and look at hitler, and look at einstein and go look at the "noric" people that Sile was linking to you will see it's all very similar people even in modern times. Fact is ancient people didn't mix around, jews were the first to mix around in large areas of the world without being simply wiped out or wiping everyone else out.

They also outnumbered the greeks in constantinople when it fell so how the heck are there supposed to be no people with jewish dna in greece? What a joke. And modal haplotype is not a joke, there's apostate jews everywhere jews ever lived. It lines up exactly with what it should be. The samaritan priests were e1b instead, go read about samaritans and afro asiatics before you talk about blue eyed semetics. There's lots and lots of both types of these jews in anatolia and NE africa (and even more apostates).

Ancient Macedonians aren't some multicultural amalgum like Italy, though. And he was not some standout but that was a common look of his people. Also they were NOT related to the southern Greeks! So, we can eliminate all the really dumb ideas right off the bat (and the people who don't have these basic facts, maybe you should read a little on the basics before coming up with crazy theories). He's just not of mideast farmer stock that entered europe early on, not the "greek" j2 even if that were even remotely possible as candiate for classic greeks.

And where did they fit in exactly, if they did exist there all along? There's never been any artifact of such a people, such people have never used cremation and there's a hundred other things that just make this ridiculous. Ancient people didn't move around singly in ancient times either. They somehow survived several wipings out of greece and didn't get affected!

So we have a group with quite a few blonde people with blue eyes. Basically we have slavs or nords. The r1a people were just discovering the exciting possibilities of iron age weapons and the descriptions and skulls don't look slavic in the least but nordic instead, we can probably rule them out.

Since we have endless nordic type artifacts and skulls for both macedonia and pre-classic greece, then I will go with the only remaining option which also lines up with the archaelogy. So then maybe the macedonians were also the preclassic greeks or some related group, who were all nordic in origin. The classic greeks who claimed to be retaking their homeland said much the same thing. Other option, r1a, I guess means they helped to retake greece (I guess from nordics) but they didn't join into society of greece for some reason. Which is possible too but seems a little strange.

kamani
31-08-13, 03:48
They have subgroups of j2a who were born in Crete, so a lot of Greek J2a is deffinitely old there, not from Turks. E v-13 is neolithic in the Balkans as well, and there was no Judaism in the Neolithic. The puzzling thing is the Nordic skulls in Macedonia and Northern Greece, which for me is not puzzling at all because they are the Illyrians and Thracians, who were half nordic. The proof is I1, I2b, and various western downstream R1b-s found in that area. These represent one of the Indo-European groups of immigrants, coming in the Bronze Age. So Alexander was half-nordic autosomally, but his y-group could have very well been E1b1b or J2, and who knows maybe even a group that is Persian or Phoenician...

Noman
31-08-13, 06:09
They have subgroups of j2a who were born in Crete, so a lot of Greek J2a is deffinitely old there, not from Turks.

I am not sure that's enough to say this is what classic greeks are. I don't think so. Cretans aren't greeks. Maybe crete is who they "take back" pre-classic greece from, not sure if that makes sense or not. But at any rate the greeks aren't the macedonians.

Not sure it's enough to say it can't come from crimea, either. Not all that j2 is greek specific either.



E v-13 is neolithic in the Balkans as well, and there was no Judaism in the Neolithic.

The jewish samaritan form IS the neolithic form, and they spread it around everywhere they go. It's not the black african form (though that is in there as well, with basically everything they have encountered over 4000 years of wandering). It's not originally a black african dna in any way, anyhow, but a levantine one. The Es are not originally black they just conquered/wandered into africa and soaked up the darker genes over time.

Jews also have j2a, and a little of everything really.

Also I am sure some comes from the catalan mercenaries and of course arabs, looking at the haplomap. It's got a decent spread on the whole mediterranean and obviously most of it comes recently as it's almost all coastal.

Considering that greeks won't even acknowledge the existence of macedonians as an ethnic group, I don't expect them to admit to large influence of jews, arabs, and turks but to deny it is to live in a fantasy land. It's not so big as in anatolia but it's a lot bigger than in spain or italy put together.



The puzzling thing is the Nordic skulls in Macedonia and Northern Greece, which for me is not puzzling at all because they are the Illyrians and Thracians, who were half nordic.

Macedonians do seem to be nordic or largely nordic and not slavic, though I guess that's possible too.


The proof is I1, I2b, and various western downstream R1b-s found in that area. These represent one of the Indo-European groups of immigrants, coming in the Bronze Age. So Alexander was half-nordic autosomally, but his y-group could have very well been E1b1b or J2, and who knows maybe even a group that is Persian or Phoenician...
I don't see how that follows. He could have some other haplogroup, true. Obviously I select the most likely seeming one. However the e1bs native to europe should be the farmers, and the J2 either came recently or are the cretans. So I could see he turns out r1a or r1b but while those options aren't impossible they don't seem to be likely.

Noman
31-08-13, 09:33
http://dienekes.awardspace.com/articles/greeknry/

All right, so I look on here. J-M267 is going to be heavy on the seleucid arabs. That didn't make it into greece much and from historic sources I don't really expect that it would. It is heavy in anatolia now of course which wouldn't be the case before ottomans. Well actually it probably would be the case already.

J-M172 is the big J. That's also what the people settled into balkans in ottoman times before the russo-turkic war would be. And also carried by 15% of askenazi jews. I don't know why people said it was j2a, maybe that's in there too but this is what you get for SOME turks and for many crimean/georgian caucasian people like circassians, who settled right in that spot and were the enforcers for the ottomans in greek territories.

21.4% in E-M78
I find it bizarre he reports this after saying everything is of caucasian origins. I guess that anything that's not west african is caucasian? Anyway like I said, 15% of total modern jews carry this, it's heavy in egypt and was in the natufians and samaritans. It's funny to me to think somehow this addition is supposed to be different if it comes from jews, turks, arabs, or ancient egyptians, it's all the same stuff. But mainly in europe it is along the coast and especially in places where jews had a big presence, and they never had a bigger presence than in byzantine roman empire. In case you don't know whole upper middle class of turkey is jewish and the e1b jdescendants of the guy who thought he was the messiah are still running around.

So I can't see chalking this up to the usual handwaving and attempts to deny your patrilineage and matrilineage actually mean something of your ethnicity or that you are the "true" fill in the blank of ethnicity we are talking about. I think the vast majority of people are going to be disappointed by the results of those endeavors if they look back just 1000 years let alone into prehistory.

But back to Greece, basically it's got no concrete ethnicity any more. I guess you could say greeks are balkanized he he he. Obviously most of this comes in really recently from sources like circassians, berbers in the catalan mercenaries (RIGHT on the spot for this, too), jews, etc. etc. From this breakdown I don't think any of these are ancient in the least, and I know the numbers were huge on both these fronts.

There's quite a bit of G and K, and the main parts are I, r1a, and r1b.

So my ultimate conclusion is this is the birthplace of I clade, where it expanded out of after ice age or immediately colonized. The r1a came later. Since r1b probably has a or even *the* homeland in anatolia maybe the back and forth conquests have something to do with that. Certainly if nothing else we can be certain troy was r1b, if we can be certain of anything.

Dienekes seems to think J originates in greece (guess he is J) but that seems pretty ridiculous. Obviously it's from around caspian sea or levant. Basically he calls the main components of arab and turkic and jew populations caucasian because he self identifies as being caucasian and those are large components of his homeland.

kamani
31-08-13, 15:41
why real euro ethnicity can be only r1a, r1b, and I ?! I don't understand these attempts to make E1b and J not European. Yes those groups came from Anatolia/Levant a long time ago, but Europeans have mixed with Anatolians and Levantines since the Stone Age; they're just too close geographically. It's not science to deny them now because of current political situations and economic conditions.

silkyslovanbojkovsky
31-08-13, 16:30
The ridiculous statement is to think j2 correlates to the greeks. You can see clearly that I haplogroup has been pushed west from greece and r1a came down out of the north in bronze age collapse. There's also tons of artifacts showing the pre-classic greeks were nothing like modern greeks or classic greeks. The modern greeks and classic greeks and pre-classic greeks are absolutely nothing to do with each other. Zero, zip. In looks, artifacts, and DNA.

Of course jews brought e1b, that is the biggest source of it outside of middle east. It is the "semitic" component of jews, and also of berbers, and originates in the levant. The samaritans from levant and north africa got mixed in with jews (who are J) and that is your e1b. There's also some e1b in neolithic farmers but it's much rarer. In any case nobody's getting blonde hair out of e1b ancestry.

Ottomans brought in majority of the crimean population and settled them in balkans, that's most of your j2. Some of that probably comes from jews as well. It's really just history. Jews couldn't hold land anywhere, they had to work in cities so when rome collapses they moved to constantinople and spain. Later they got forced out of spain and france and moved to austria and poland en masse. When poland conquered lithuania they moved there en masse as well. They never integrated in those places because they weren't allowed to, in USA they have completely integrated.

So whatever your point is, it's wrong.

im just curious as to why you want to hold such a view that is completely wrong?

silkyslovanbojkovsky
31-08-13, 16:55
why real euro ethnicity can be only r1a, r1b, and I ?! I don't understand these attempts to make E1b and J not European. Yes those groups came from Anatolia/Levant a long time ago, but Europeans have mixed with Anatolians and Levantines since the Stone Age; they're just too close geographically. It's not science to deny them now because of current political situations and economic conditions.

why would you say that? Of course E1b and J2 are European. They've probably been longer in euorpe than both r1a and r1b. Only I is the true European Haplogroup because it probably originated in Europe, where as r1 and J and E didn't, but that doesn't make them not european

Eldritch
31-08-13, 17:37
E1b1b and J2 have been longer in Europe than both R1a and R1b so they can't be less European by that factor alone, and I haplogroup I is still a mystery...

Noman is a ***** to not be taken seriously, i know him from another place...

Noman
31-08-13, 22:12
im just curious as to why you want to hold such a view that is completely wrong?
Well dude from your other comments in the other thread you have knowledge gaps a truck can drive through. E1b alexander is just impossible. J2 Alexander is a fantasy born of desperate people trying to paint themselves as original greeks. Turns out the J2 was insignificant anyway going by dieneke's report.


E1b1b and J2 have been longer in Europe than both R1a and R1b so they can't be less European by that factor alone, and I haplogroup I is still a mystery...

Noman is a ***** to not be taken seriously, i know him from another place...

I admit it's amusing to think people want to paint alexander as E1b, but I had no idea in heck this thread would be so exciting and I'd get so many people challenging the obvious. So even if I were a prankster of some kind it would take an even smarter person than I to make such a guess.

E1b doesn't come from the caucus area, so it's not caucasian, but semetic. It's the thing in semetic peoples like arabs and jews that makes them semetic instead of caucasian! SOME of the E1b has been in europe a while but you can't claim it's been there longer than r1b, r1b has been in anatolia at least since basically forever. We KNOW when most of the E1b comes to europe and it's very recent, like G you can virtually discount ancient E1b it just barely exists. And I am pretty r1b has been in north africa and iberia quite a long time even if maciamo's fantasyland autosomal DNA anaylis that comes down to guessing ethnicity based on skin color is popular with some folks here. But if you knew more about what you were talking about you'd not give it much weight.

Population markers are generally heavily selected on just like skin pigmentation markers. Meaning gedrosian component is probably completely meaningless, even worse than simply looking at skin tone in most cases. And even if it weren't then it gets hard to explain populations of r1b that don't have it.

It's obviously only the germanics who did. It's also obvious features like red hair got washed out by most of the r1b migrations, so that's not where they come from. Plus maciamo desperately tries to fit the nordics as the most neanderthallike peoples. What a joke. At any rate the skulls are nothing like neanderthals, don't know what the genetic percentages are. Basically this scenario is not possible, and moreover doesn't explain how it became so incredibly numerous in such a short time. If this is correct it grew many times faster than romans in the same period without any farming! That's just one more impossible thing that can't be accounted for.

Back to the Greeks, we know what classic greeks looked like, it's nothing like modern greeks. We have loads of pre classic artifacts that seem nordic and quite a few nording looking skulls. There's a heavy nordic influence for greece and even more for macedonia, which has way more blonde people today than greece does. Obviously Alexander was nordic. Also obviously he was not Greek, and he has nothing to do with Greeks in any way.

Absolutely none of this holds up to scrutiny and most of it is nonsense you can immediately discard.

But it's a decent job to try and place r1b as murdering invaders and semetic people as original inhabitants of europe, which I guess is what the crazy out of africa theories must really be about. Now tell me who the tr-oll here is. Or I guess it doens't count as ******** if it's political polemics, then it's somehow noble lies for a good cause. Self aggrandizement, what could be a better cause, eh?

LeBrok
01-09-13, 02:01
Gentlemen, please tone down your exchange.

Noman
01-09-13, 02:12
There's nothing to tone down on my end. I agree at least I is one of the bigger mysteries but this is the most plausible origin I can see. Even maciamo thinks r1a has always been in europe. Since bell beaker turned out r1b and it's continuous from other cultures I'd assume it's always been in europe too unless we get real evidence to the contrary (bell beaker or preceding related culture but wrong dna, which has never happened yet), and there's zero evidence of more ancient e1b in europe of any kind.

silkyslovanbojkovsky
01-09-13, 05:06
Ya sure, and I never said Alexander was e1b or J2. I think he was most likely r1a

stefco
09-12-13, 17:56
I think he may be I2, R1a, J2 or E-V13/

albanopolis
09-12-13, 19:02
He is obviously E or J. Curley hair proves that.

adamo
09-12-13, 21:06
No, curly hair doesn't "prove that".

albanopolis
09-12-13, 22:36
No, curly hair doesn't "prove that".

It does. Curly hair is southern european feature. Southerns are E,J,T,G, majority. Northerns are straight hair.

LeBrok
10-12-13, 00:52
It does. Curly hair is southern european feature. Southerns are E,J,T,G, majority. Northerns are straight hair.
There are many with blond (with light eyes) wavy and curly hair up north too. Do you have pt haplogroup for them too?

albanopolis
10-12-13, 04:28
There are many with blond (with light eyes) wavy and curly hair up north too. Do you have pt haplogroup for them too?

They too got the curly hair from E,J,G,T

LeBrok
10-12-13, 06:28
They too got the curly hair from E,J,G,T
You should have used past tens in case of Alexander too. Even if he got his curly hair from his ancestors of E or J, it doesn't mean that he was necessarily E or J himself. Curly hair is an autosomal trait and not belongs to Y chromosome.

adamo
10-12-13, 06:38
No, my grandfather had blond thick wooly hair. Guess who else has wooly hair? Blacks. Some white men and even East Asians and Amerindians have straight hair as well; I see no link in what you are saying; prove that those haplogroups give curly hair; I've seen redheads with curly hair.

adamo
10-12-13, 06:43
And in what way are Southern Europeans e,j,g "majority"? Which regions are you even referring to; Spanish have 70-75% R1b, Portuguese have 65%, Italians 45-50%, Greeks have like 45-50% combined R1b,R1a,I2a; which are these countries dominated by Neolithic haplogroups; they are certainly far more present in the south, accounting for up to 40-50% of italian and Greek lineages for example! but where do the Neolithic haplogroups in Europe ever form a majority other than on a regional basis and to the general exception of the countries I stated and including Albania as well we can say.

Eldritch
10-12-13, 11:36
They too got the curly hair from E,J,G,T
Pretty dumb statement.

albanopolis
10-12-13, 15:12
Pretty dumb statement.
You would think so! But using statistical thinking makes a lot of sense. Statistcaly curly hair in North corresponds to approximately number of people with those haplogroups. So your statement seen from this prism looks also dumb.

albanopolis
10-12-13, 15:15
Pretty dumb statement.

The whole thread is dumb. How can you guess the Dna of sombody. He could very well been from A to Z.

Eldritch
10-12-13, 17:24
You would think so! But using statistical thinking makes a lot of sense. Statistcaly curly hair in North corresponds to approximately number of people with those haplogroups. So your statement seen from this prism looks also dumb.
Can you post me empirical evidence which supports that, scientific studies are welcome.

albanopolis
10-12-13, 18:52
Can you post me empirical evidence which supports that, scientific studies are welcome.
If you travell to Arabi where J1 is prevalent so is the curley hair. Not to mention the E Africans.