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julia90
05-04-11, 00:50
Are you in favour of immigration?
both of people who migrate in your country and your connationals who migrate in other countries...


My opinion, after a long reflexion i belive that people shouldn't migrate, both immigrants in your country and connational in other countries.

Immigration destabilizes local population and arise ethnic issues, rivaleries and more over the important thing is that in italy there isn't much job available even for locals. so the impression is that immigrants both extracommunitairs and communitairs steal your jobs.

For example i'm against the immigrations of italians in germany, france, uk etc.. because i wouldn't want more people in my country to steal job opportunities , i wouldn't want being in their situations.

In conclusions i don't want immigrant both communitairs and extra communitairs in my country, and also i want that the italian population decrease (less birth rate) because i thnik that less we are in this world the better we stay.

I think people should stay where they are born and have family.

Here's an italian saying: MOGLI E BUOI DEI PAESI TUOI (Wifes and oxen from your countries/towns)

Spion Stirlitz
05-04-11, 05:26
I agree with you, @Julia90...

However, you should remember that in the period 1848 and 1914, somewhere between 8 - 10 million Italians migrated to USA, Argentina, Brazil, Australia and Canada.

Certainly, those countries had an immigration policy opened to immigration back then as a means to settle , in a sense, virgin territories. Even so, the Italians faced initially some racism (e.g. in the USA).

That immigration was "positive" but current immigration is "negative"?

**

Anyway, the case is not the same, since we are talking about the "development" of so called "empty space".

The only moral issue regarding Emigration to Europe, would be to inform proplerly to the people that plan to come, and explain to them just what is the reality they are likely going to face: That they will not be so wellcomed as they imagine, and that the best option for them, will be to develop and improve their own homelands.

An the other would be, not to hinder development and force people out of their countries by bad and hypocrite policies and schemes.

Example of today: Libya!!

The country with the highest standar of living in whole Africa, and the one that cooperated to keep migration from Africa in check, is pushed into anarchy and violence by the interest of European/USA Big Oil and the Petromonarchies of the Gulf.

Countries that will most suffer a surge due illegal migration as result of that in the following years: Italy, Greece and Spain.

What a shame!!

Wilhelm
05-04-11, 05:48
Yes, I am against immigration, specially massive immigration. I would consider immigration correct in a maximum evel of 2-3% of the population, controlled, and only if needed, but not the levels that we have today of 16% (and that's only legals), that's not immigration that's an invasion. In some towns of Spain they even reach 40+% today. In the case of Spain we have received more than 4 million people in a span of only 10 years, that's crazy, there is no possible way to assimilate so much foreign people in such short time. A lot of conflicts and problems ahead of us.

LeBrok
05-04-11, 05:49
You need smart emigrants and with money too. They come, start businesses and create lots of jobs of locals. Then life is beautiful.

If you have too many uneducated, not so smart and poor emigrants then they become a drag on a system, unemployment rises and crime too. Life is brutal.


The strength of US grew up on backs of emigrants. It shows that most of the people that came to US where hard working, entrepreneurial, smart, freedom loving. From completely nothing to world's superpower and a leader in 400 years. It has to mean something, and I bet it is the quality of the people that came to US. After all, the people make the country.

If you have emigrants of similar culture they adapt much quicker and they don't change local values and culture.
If you have emigrants of totally different values and customs then it's the point where multiculturalism crumbles, and conflicts start.

I wish that our countries smarten up in this regard and started to be more selective. As history shown the emigrants can make a great country, or they can destroy it too.

Antigone
05-04-11, 07:37
I can't agree with Julia, that everyone stay in one place. Man has always migrated, if he didn't we'd all still be living in Africa and there would certainly be no Italy or Europe as we know and love today. Man would not have evolved both physically or technologically, we'd still be living in grass huts or in the trees picking lice out of eachother's hair.

In today's construct, immigration is vital to any healthy economy, there are always skilled labour shortages in the various industries that need to be filled if industry is to operate successfully. But it must be strictly controlled based on the needs of each particular country, Australia for example has managed its immigration well by placing a cap on numbers of people allowed to enter per year and with attention paid to the skills of each migrant. Europe, to date, have not done so well. Particularly the UK who are only now realising that by not strictly controlling the number of migrants and the size of it's population has only lead to political and social problems.

Aconform
05-04-11, 09:13
Without immigration all development dies. Some EU countries are in big trouble when it comes to birth rates… and one of them is Italy with a birth rate of 1,2 I believe it is. And it need to be at 2,1.

In Demark its at around 1,8 still we have a big problem in the next 10 years. We have the so called baby-boomer generations that will retire. With the result of for every person working we will have 2 on pension. So in Denmark we will crash and burn if we don’t get immigrants.

Italy needs big reforms when it comes to the birth rate. Government needs to have incentives to increase it or there won’t be Italians.

And your Idea of a protectionist society is the formula for a country to fail. Examples of countries like that are North Korea, Albania under communist dictatorship. And if all were forced back to were they are from the world economy would crash and burn.

Mzungu mchagga
05-04-11, 12:09
Basically I think everything has already been said by Spion, Wilhelm, LeBrok, Antigone and Aconform.

To sum it up and put a little structure into it:

We have to distinguish between countries which are based on immigration (USA, Australia etc...) and countries which have recently been confronted with high immigration rates (UK, Italy etc...). While the first mentioned are able to cope with immigration relatively well -please note that illigal immigration is a different topic!-, the latter are still struggling to find their place on that issue.

Fact is, that Western European countries will not survive on the long run without immigration. It is illusional to rise the birth rates by promoting traditional values of giving birth to many children only: People only react on the basic conditions given in society. If a young lady is well educated and has the possibility of earning good money later on, and needs to study and take many periods of practical training until she is in her late 20's, plus bosses expect to be flexible all life through, how many children shall she have then until she reaches the limit of fertility in her mid-30's?


Immigration destabilizes local population and arise ethnic issues, rivaleries and more over the important thing is that in italy there isn't much job available even for locals. so the impression is that immigrants both extracommunitairs and communitairs steal your jobs.

That is not true! At least not when we are talking about immigration in general. Arguments are often contradicting when on the one hand foreigners take away our jobs, but on the other hand never want to work and eat our welfare-system. Immigrants who came to Germany with the first immigration wave in the 1950's and 60's, mainly from Italy, Greece, Yugoslavia, also to a lower degree from Spain and Portugal, are today with their descendants well assimilated into German society and from their life-style and values hardly to be distinguished from "ethnic" Germans.

When people refer to the "bad" foreigner, they are usually talking about immigrants from the Middle East, Africa and the Indian sub-continent. People with a total different cultural background who have difficulties assimilating to local customs and values. Here the question comes up how to cope with this problem, and there are two possibilities:

1. Either we have to improve our methods of integration, which also requires to accept our self-portrait of immigration countries on the one hand, and stricter laws of assimilation [e.g. ban the burca] on the other,

2. and/or we have to introduce a system similiar to Australia/New Zealand with giving credit points to immigrants according to their economic benefit of our countries.


On small problem remains in the end:
If those immigrants accustom to our countries and seek the same life style, they and their children will also give less birth to further children. Which means in the end our societies will be dependant on certain immigration rates until all eternity. I don't know if this might become a problem if immigration flows are suddenly cut off due to any reason. If someone has an answer to that, I will be very grateful!

Vallicanus
05-04-11, 15:13
Are you in favour of immigration?
both of people who migrate in your country and your connationals who migrate in other countries...


My opinion, after a long reflexion i belive that people shouldn't migrate, both immigrants in your country and connational in other countries.

Immigration destabilizes local population and arise ethnic issues, rivaleries and more over the important thing is that in italy there isn't much job available even for locals. so the impression is that immigrants both extracommunitairs and communitairs steal your jobs.

For example i'm against the immigrations of italians in germany, france, uk etc.. because i wouldn't want more people in my country to steal job opportunities , i wouldn't want being in their situations.

In conclusions i don't want immigrant both communitairs and extra communitairs in my country, and also i want that the italian population decrease (less birth rate) because i thnik that less we are in this world the better we stay.

I think people should stay where they are born and have family.

Here's an italian saying: MOGLI E BUOI DEI PAESI TUOI (Wifes and oxen from your countries/towns)


I could not agree more.

Europe needs the Australian model where only skilled workers from abroad who fill a vacancy locals cannot fill are allowed to stay as citizens.

What use are more sellers of umbrellas and cheap watches on Italian and Spanish streets?:sad-2:?

Anton, Bear's den
05-04-11, 16:09
Without immigration all development dies. Some EU countries are in big trouble when it comes to birth rates… and one of them is Italy with a birth rate of 1,2 I believe it is. And it need to be at 2,1.

In Demark its at around 1,8 still we have a big problem in the next 10 years. We have the so called baby-boomer generations that will retire. With the result of for every person working we will have 2 on pension. So in Denmark we will crash and burn if we don’t get immigrants.

Italy needs big reforms when it comes to the birth rate. Government needs to have incentives to increase it or there won’t be Italians.

And your Idea of a protectionist society is the formula for a country to fail. Examples of countries like that are North Korea, Albania under communist dictatorship. And if all were forced back to were they are from the world economy would crash and burn.


You need smart emigrants and with money too. They come, start businesses and create lots of jobs of locals. Then life is beautiful.

If you have too many uneducated, not so smart and poor emigrants then they become a drag on a system, unemployment rises and crime too. Life is brutal.


The strength of US grew up on backs of emigrants. It shows that most of the people that came to US where hard working, entrepreneurial, smart, freedom loving. From completely nothing to world's superpower and a leader in 400 years. It has to mean something, and I bet it is the quality of the people that came to US. After all, the people make the country.

If you have emigrants of similar culture they adapt much quicker and they don't change local values and culture.
If you have emigrants of totally different values and customs then it's the point where multiculturalism crumbles, and conflicts start.

I wish that our countries smarten up in this regard and started to be more selective. As history shown the emigrants can make a great country, or they can destroy it too.

Anyway, USA was build by white Europeans and that source has dried up. 90% of today immigrants into USA & Canada are not European. I wanna see how American melting pot will work when the white European population will be minority (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VQjQszlNY84) in America & how USA will feel itself. Also recommend to watch (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FM1YU-Ni_84). If I was American then I would vote for that man (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zBGE4w32HnY):laughing:
Immigration lead to huge problems inside. Europe is nice example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0cuwn17lX6c
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lp9_FE6AJTM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZGK33rkk6E
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TxxKXl2U7NM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s2IHnWY-i6Y
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GvlFm4AwAqI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qgfd50mmsD0 (Palestinian kindergarten)
And no need to talk about workforce

4671

LeBrok
05-04-11, 17:18
On small problem remains in the end:
If those immigrants accustom to our countries and seek the same life style, they and their children will also give less birth to further children. Which means in the end our societies will be dependant on certain immigration rates until all eternity. I don't know if this might become a problem if immigration flows are suddenly cut off due to any reason. If someone has an answer to that, I will be very grateful!

Make birth controls eligal.

lol

What's left is educating youths about this need, make it a civil honor/duty to have two kids or more, and big tax incentives for families with kids.

Spion Stirlitz
05-04-11, 17:33
Anyway, USA was build by white Europeans and that source has dried up. 90% of today immigrants into USA & Canada are not European. I wanna see how American melting pot will work when the white European population will be minority in America & how USA will feel itself. Also recommend to watch (http://ultimatepro.eu/browse.php?u=Oi8vd3d3LmV1cGVkaWEuY29tL2ZvcnVtLyZxd W90O2h0dHA6Ly91bHRpbWF0ZXByby5ldS9icm93c2UucGhwP3U 9T2k4dmQzZDNMbVYxY0dWa2FXRXVZMjl0TDJadmNuVnRMeVp4Z Fc5ME8yaDBkSEE2THk5MWJIUnBiV0YwWlhCeWJ5NWxkUzlpY20 5M2MyVXVjR2h3UDNVOVQyazRkbVF6WkROTWJWWXhZMGRXYTJGW FJYVlpNamwwVERKYWRtTnVWblJNZVZwNFpGYzVNRTh5YURCa1N FRTJUSGs1TVdKSVVuQmlWMFl3V2xoQ2VXSjVOV3hrVXpscFkyM DVNMk15VlhWalIyaDNVRE5WT1ZReWF6UmtiVkY2V2tST1RXSld XWGhaTUdSWFlUSkdXRkpZVmxwTmFtd3dWRVJLWVdSdFRuVldib EpOWlZad05GcEdZelZOUlRoNVlVUkNhMU5GUlRKVVNHczFUVEp SZWxrelZteFdlbXQ0V2tWb1YyRldjRlJPVjNCcFRXcENNbHBFU 2tkTlJtdDVXbmxWZVZKdFVuRk5WV1JWVmtWYVlWWnNUWGhVTWt aWFQwUlNUMUV4Y0RSYVJtTTFUVVU1TTBwVVRrVktWRTVGU20xR 2RHTkVkR2hpV0VFM1dXb3dNVXB1UmpGaU0xRTNKbUZ0Y0R0aGJ YQTdZajAxSm5GMWIzUTcmYW1wO2FtcDtiPTUmcXVvdDs%3D&b=5). If I was American then I would vote for that man (http://ultimatepro.eu/browse.php?u=Oi8vd3d3LmV1cGVkaWEuY29tL2ZvcnVtLyZxd W90O2h0dHA6Ly91bHRpbWF0ZXByby5ldS9icm93c2UucGhwP3U 9T2k4dmQzZDNMbVYxY0dWa2FXRXVZMjl0TDJadmNuVnRMeVp4Z Fc5ME8yaDBkSEE2THk5MWJIUnBiV0YwWlhCeWJ5NWxkUzlpY20 5M2MyVXVjR2h3UDNVOVQyazRkbVF6WkROTWJWWXhZMGRXYTJGW FJYVlpNamwwVERKYWRtTnVWblJNZVZwNFpGYzVNRTh5YURCa1N FRTJUSGs1TVdKSVVuQmlWMFl3V2xoQ2VXSjVOV3hrVXpscFkyM DVNMk15VlhWalIyaDNVRE5WT1ZReWF6UmtiVkY2V2tST1RXSld XWGhaTUdSWFlUSkdXRkpZVmxwTmFtd3dWRVJLWVdSdFRuVldib EpOWlZad05GcEdZelZOUlRoNVlVUkNhMU5GUlRKVVNHczFUVEp SZWxrelZteFdlbXQ0V2tWb1YyRldjRlJPVjNCcFRXcENNbHBFU 2tkTlJtdDVXbmxWZVZKdFVuRk5WRnBTWVRKU1IxUnJhR3BsYXp GeVlVaFdXRlV4Y0RSYVJtTTFUVVU1TTBwVVRrVktWRTVGU20xR 2RHTkVkR2hpV0VFM1dXb3dNVXB1UmpGaU0xRTNKbUZ0Y0R0aGJ YQTdZajAxSm5GMWIzUTcmYW1wO2FtcDtiPTUmcXVvdDs%3D&b=5)

Привет, Антон.

Certainly, at this moment the Latin American illegal immigration to the USA is excesive. However, against the projections of the racists, the States that are predominantly Latino, are precisely the states with higher GDP in the USA...

GDP by State (USA)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP

(California has almost the same GDP as Russia, with just approx. 35 million people)

Many of the people of those States, are from non white Latin American origin...


http://latinostories.com/Latino_Facts_and_Statistics/Latino_Population_by_State.htm

(To which we should add the Asians, African Americans, et cetera).

I do not say that the economic preponderance of those states are the result of Latin American immigation. But it could be contended, that that migration have not disrupted the economy of those states in a significant way. On the other hand, we could compare what happened to certain cities of the Midwest like Detroit or Saint Louis, or the traditional stagnation as a whole, of the Plains and the and the South.


If that trend is going to continue, it will be very intersting to see the results.

julia90
05-04-11, 19:24
I could not agree more.

Europe needs the Australian model where only skilled workers from abroad who fill a vacancy locals cannot fill are allowed to stay as citizens.

What use are more sellers of umbrellas and cheap watches on Italian and Spanish streets?:sad-2:?

you are right we should receive only skilled people or people who create new businesses and increase job opportunity here.
Here with that characteristics are only Chineses immigrants, they starts new businesses, althought they create competitiveness with business lead by italians.
Infact chineses are welcomed.
also they are not prepotent and they don't cry on themselves or on the italian state.

i think we don't need people who seek the already scarce job opportunities for italians.

Reinaert
05-04-11, 19:31
I am against immigration.

We in the Netherlands seem to have the lowest unemployment rate, but that only a capitalist trick. Many women work in cheap labor jobs.
Even high educated men work below their level.
Why? There is cheap labor available from all over the world.
They lower the price of labor.

The Dutch have to pay gigantic sums for building a house.
And that's why they have to get a high salary.
It's the government and real estate mafia that strangles the Dutch economy.

Immigrants seeking economical advantages use political asylum as a trick to get into The Netherlands. Mostly the rich, who can afford to get an airplane into The Netherlands.

Dutch capitalists got more and more immigrants into The Netherlands for at least 60 years now, just to profit from cheap labor.
In the same time the right wing politicians are waving the fascist flag of hatred against Muslims.
It's the old "divide and rule" trick.

Socialists know too well, there are no countries. We are all human beings.
Nations are a ridiculous concept.
Make an end to greed.

julia90
05-04-11, 19:36
i thnik the map Anton Bear Dean posted it's useful to understand the situation.
Untill the unimployment rate hasn't lowered to 0%, states shouldn't accept immigrants.

there are 7% of residents in italy who haven't a job, we should first worry for them than immigrants.

Reinaert
05-04-11, 19:45
i thnik the map Anton Bear Dean posted it's useful to understand the situation.
Untill the unimployment rate hasn't lowered to 0%, states shouldn't accept immigrants.

there are 7% of residents in italy who haven't a job, we should first worry for them than immigrants.

I don't agree..
My old economy teacher told us a country has to have an unemployment rate of 5%, to have a flexible economy. So that would be a fine marker.

By the way, we have to compete with a fascist slave system in China.
As long as people in China are abused, we in Europe are exploited by a capitalist mafia as well.

China is the big time problem nowadays, not the Muslim countries.

julia90
05-04-11, 19:54
I don't agree..
My old economy teacher told us a country has to have an unemployment rate of 5%, to have a flexible economy. So that would be a fine marker.

By the way, we have to compete with a fascist slave system in China.
As long as people in China are abused, we in Europe are exploited by a capitalist mafia as well.

China is the big time problem nowadays, not the Muslim countries.

i didn't know about that rate. it means italy is in a relatively good situation.

i agree they work as slaves but they are the only immigrants who come heare to start new businesses, this is a relatively good thing if we compare them to immigrants who have the same aspirations as italians but don't start businesses, so they create high competitions and social ethnic problems of discriminations and hate (both communitairs and extracommunitairs)

Anton, Bear's den
05-04-11, 21:43
Привет, Антон.

Certainly, at this moment the Latin American illegal immigration to the USA is excesive. However, against the projections of the racists, the States that are predominantly Latino, are precisely the states with higher GDP in the USA...

GDP by State (USA)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP

(California has almost the same GDP as Russia, with just approx. 35 million people)

Many of the people of those States, are from non white Latin American origin...


http://latinostories.com/Latino_Facts_and_Statistics/Latino_Population_by_State.htm

(To which we should add the Asians, African Americans, et cetera).

I do not say that the economic preponderance of those states are the result of Latin American immigation. But it could be contended, that that migration have not disrupted the economy of those states in a significant way. On the other hand, we could compare what happened to certain cities of the Midwest like Detroit or Saint Louis, or the traditional stagnation as a whole, of the Plains and the and the South.


If that trend is going to continue, it will be very intersting to see the results.

California richest state of USA not because of Latino immigrants. There work more than 1 million of the most talented people collected from the whole world by commercial companies, research laboratories, American government (scientists, entrepreneurs, students, professors, researchers etc...) which concentrated in Silicon Valley. Also many multinational corporations registered there (taxes) + Hollywood Industry.
I don't know about Latino people much, never talked with them a lot. Maybe they are much better than other immigrants. But I have very big doubts that immigration by itself leads to prosperity, here everything depends from the quality of immigrants themselves. America was lucky, they got Europeans which moved because of endless wars & conflicts in Europe (the most developed place at that time), many of them were highly educated & cultural, had protestant values. Or Israel, which got a "gift" from the dying Soviet Union in kind of 1-3 millions of highly educated specialists.

But today, when some people say: "import this 4672 or this 4673 and Europe will blossom like a flower!", this causes only laughter :laughing:

Spion Stirlitz
05-04-11, 23:44
California richest state of USA not because of Latino immigrants. There work more than 1 million of the most talented people collected from the whole world by commercial companies, research laboratories, American government (scientists, entrepreneurs, students, professors, researchers etc...) which concentrated in Silicon Valley. Also many multinational corporations registered there (taxes) + Hollywood Industry.

The base of development of California was Agriculture and Agroindustry, not high technology or services... tomatoes and carrots were first, not Boing or Hollywood. Those came later.


http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/us/A0857126.html




I don't know about Latino people much, never talked with them a lot. Maybe they are much better than other immigrants. But I have very big doubts that immigration by itself leads to prosperity, here everything depends from the quality of immigrants themselves.


I see them as kind of "average". They are not the worst or the best that America could have gotten in the last half century in such numbers.

Nowadays East Asians are much prefered in comparison.


But today, when some people say: "import this... and Europe will blossom like a flower!", this causes only laughter :laughing:

I reserve to myself my judgment of that.

I have meet many Turks that are very well educated and enterprenurial, even when as a group their integration to Europe (i.e. Germany) is cuestioned today. For me it is a big question mark.

(@Mzungu gave a superb explanation of that recently).

**

Now, I think that a country that should be asking itself about the convenience of having immigration, is Russia, given the population crisis it faces.


http://www.voanews.com/english/news/europe/Demographers-Warn-of-Looming-Population-Crisis-for-Russia-118382619.html


http://www.gwu.edu/~ieresgwu/assets/docs/ponars/pm_0118.pdf

I think this will be a very interesting contribution to know your viewpoints, Anton.

Carlitos
06-04-11, 00:14
I am against immigration, I was exhausted having to deal daily with people from 100 different countries, many do not even make the effort to speak Spanish, is the limit!, with its shops cover where drug trafficking, white slavery and all the garbage they have brought to Spain, I am very tired of seeing all these people here, what should all this? In Spain the legal and illegal immigration is a scandal, rather than the Spanish family support to more children may have preferred to meet Spain's garbage, do not understand.

LeBrok
06-04-11, 06:05
Ban contraceptives!

Hey don't look at me. I made 3 kids already, that's why I'm allowed to have vasectomy. :)

For the rest of white middle class, get busy. :heart::laughing:

Antigone
06-04-11, 07:13
Infact chineses are welcomed.
also they are not prepotent and they don't cry on themselves or on the italian state.

Chinese immigrants can also bring their own set of problems if there is no careful screening of immigrants, the major one is organised crime. And there are still no guarantees with selectivity, quite often it is the wealthier and better educated who are involved in Triads. Triad and other gang culture has become quite a problem in Australia amongst the Chinese and other East Asian communities.

Mzungu mchagga
06-04-11, 12:34
Make birth controls eligal.

lol

What's left is educating youths about this need, make it a civil honor/duty to have two kids or more, and big tax incentives for families with kids.

and


Ban contraceptives!

Hey don't look at me. I made 3 kids already, that's why I'm allowed to have vasectomy. :)

For the rest of white middle class, get busy. :heart::laughing:

Tax incentives for families with kids, or at least for single mums or dads, is something I would strongly support. For the rest, it is not that Europeans don't know they will get in trouble without children later on. But what to do if the basic conditions don't fit?

Here again the difference between the "New World" (USA, Canada, Australia etc.) and the "Old World" (Europe) becomes obvious: I think that the basic infrastructure for children (possibilities to take care of them when working, same applies to elderly people) is better in North America, because flexibility is part of life and culture. This is just starting to develope in Europe.

When you do your studies over here and take your first work experience in a certain field, you will be nailed to it for the rest of your life. Young people in Europe have to be more than careful which sort of studies and jobs they pick on. The result is that they invest a vast number of years into learning, studiyng and practical training. When they are finished and have enough money to raise a family, especially for ladies it gets hard as they don't have that much time anymore until fertility is over.
But life is getting longer, we are getting older and also healthier at a higher age, which means we will still work for decades until we retire. You can't expect a person to do the same job for over 40 or 50 years. [And some even say, you can't spend the same amount of years with the same wife or husband, whoops... shift of values]
But governments and companies here don't have any sympathy for that, simply because it has never been like that.

The problem is even well to be observed in Southern Europe, where traditionally families have been very large and everyone takes care of each other within. So elderly people and children are not that simply given away to other institutions like in Northern Europe. But the spirit of our time doesn't allow you to invest much time into your family, everything is about flexibility, flexibility, flexibility! Or you will end up on the bottom line of society. So what can young people in Southern Europe do? They simply don't produce any children, that's why birth rates are dropping.

This is one of the issues our govs have to set their focus on!



Back to immigration:
I guess that no one here would believe it, but especially in rural areas of Germany we have an extreme shortage of health workers (doctors, nurses, other therapists). This is also an area highly populated by elderly people, and chronical diseases have become somewhat epidemic. Higher production of health workers has already become too late, and the problem will intensify the following years. I think an immigration system similiar to Australia would reduce this problem, but the German government as well as the population shows their full schizophrenic and paranoid mentality in this country, which wasn't founded on immigration: We would like to welcome more doctors from other countries, but each time they arrive, they open their jackets and pull the string of their suicide bombs... :bored:

edao
06-04-11, 12:47
I think within EU people should be able to go where they want.(which is largely the case) There are loads of Spanish and Polish in Edinburgh and it is only a good thing.

If some lazy Scottish/British person can't compete with them for jobs tough, get more skills, get more experience work harder.

Outside of Europe it should be stopped or reduced drastically. Asylum seekers should be turned away, go to a neighbouring country don't come to the richest country asking for help, is it about you life or your wallet?

Mzungu mchagga
06-04-11, 13:05
I think within EU people should be able to go where they want.(which is largely the case) There are loads of Spanish and Polish in Edinburgh and it is only a good thing.

If some lazy Scottish/British person can't compete with them for jobs tough, get more skills, get more experience work harder.

Outside of Europe it should be stopped or reduced drastically. Asylum seekers should be turned away, go to a neighbouring country don't come to the richest country asking for help, is it about you life or your wallet?

:good_job:
My point of view!

julia90
06-04-11, 15:14
I think within EU people should be able to go where they want.(which is largely the case) There are loads of Spanish and Polish in Edinburgh and it is only a good thing.

If some lazy Scottish/British person can't compete with them for jobs tough, get more skills, get more experience work harder.

Outside of Europe it should be stopped or reduced drastically. Asylum seekers should be turned away, go to a neighbouring country don't come to the richest country asking for help, is it about you life or your wallet?

i'm against intra european immigration instead.
europe is not usa.
also intar european immigartion arises ethnic rivalities.
also southern europeans that move to north europe or north-east europe are not welcomed usually.

Anton, Bear's den
06-04-11, 15:46
The base of development of California was Agriculture and Agroindustry, not high technology or services... tomatoes and carrots were first, not Boing or Hollywood. Those came later.
Maybe, but it departure from the topic


I have meet many Turks that are very well educated and enterprenurial, even when as a group their integration to Europe (i.e. Germany) is cuestioned today. For me it is a big question mark.
Glad that Germans live in harmony with Turks :grin:


Now, I think that a country that should be asking itself about the convenience of having immigration, is Russia, given the population crisis it faces.

I think this will be a very interesting contribution to know your viewpoints, Anton.

Don't worry about Russia, we do not plan to import Muslims from Middle East or Pakistan. These guys are hardly able to integrate into Christian-Atheistic society. Our KGB prefer to increase social spending on mothers and young families in general instead. Birthrate actually growing. The last census showed that from 2000 to 2010 Russia lost only 2-3 million of people (around 1.6%), not so bad for big ex-communist country in transition period. I remember western forecasts screamed some time ago about 10-20 of lost millions.

Vallicanus
06-04-11, 16:06
I think within EU people should be able to go where they want.(which is largely the case) There are loads of Spanish and Polish in Edinburgh and it is only a good thing.

If some lazy Scottish/British person can't compete with them for jobs tough, get more skills, get more experience work harder.

Outside of Europe it should be stopped or reduced drastically. Asylum seekers should be turned away, go to a neighbouring country don't come to the richest country asking for help, is it about you life or your wallet?

From today the UK will only take 20,700 skilled workers per year from outside the EU but illegals and asylum seekers are still coming in.

Cambrius (The Red)
06-04-11, 16:10
Yes, but on a restrictive basis, with no tolerance for those who immigrate illegally.

edao
06-04-11, 16:34
From today the UK will only take 20,700 skilled workers per year from outside the EU but illegals and asylum seekers are still coming in.


Glasgow has been directly effected by asylum, some times you'll be lucky to hear English spoken on the buses.

Antigone
06-04-11, 16:44
[QUOTE=edao;369960]If some lazy Scottish/British person can't compete with them for jobs tough, get more skills, get more experience work harder.QUOTE]

A lot of the time it is not that they can't compete for the jobs, it is simply because they won't.

Were I live for example, all the council jobs repairing roads, all the house painting businesses, much of the building and stonework businesses and much of the olive harvesting is almost entirely done by Albanians, Romanians or Bulgarians. This is not because they can be paid less in wages, on the contrary they demand and receive very good wages. It is because, as a society, Greece has become too educated and there are now a whole range of jobs that many Greeks will no longer work in.

iapetoc
08-04-11, 07:52
hmmmmm

I Belive that immigration is not the problem,
but slave market is the problem,
As also free travel.

so I believe that Nationality laws should be stronger,
immigration was always,
but what EU needs is control of it,
the last 10 years in Greece I have seen that,
immigrants from other areas come to Greece and Greeks move to other areas, specially north west Europe,
Although seems crazy I believe that is controled by a system
Europeans don't born enough children,
so cheap labor hands are needed, so system is using Greece turkey south italy and spain, as 1rst devastating area, and then the absorve them in industrial north,
I am not talking about ex-east block countries cause they are considered Europe and Eu most of them,

in USA when immigration was in high ratios, industrialization was on,
today most Ohio metal companies are sold, and many other industries also,
the strange is that more industrial areas are Far Asia, but many people do not immigrate there, why?
so maybe modern immigration is the dream of fortune hunters, not workers, due to strong Euro, or Bank and industries want them as cheap labors,
in the Economy laws we find that,
so cheap labors, that are illegal, meaning they are afraid to protest or complain
are the ideal workers for dangerous or hard working,
on the other hand, who can compare chinese production, in a system that in isolated areas people work just for 2 cups of rise, or india, where people use old time metal saws to cut ships for metal,
so immigrants are helping Bank and Industy Godfathers,
But with out them then areas became isolated and lose polycultural connections that open mind,
so the problem is not immigration, but
UNCONTROLED ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION,

when a state that has more 20% unemployment, is accepting new immigrants,
then soon revolt and troubles will broke,
so I believe that a EU organisation that should control immigration and not give nationalities that easy should be established,
and use the media of non EU to stop immigration, by showing small videos of what illegal immigration is, and what was the luck of many illegal immigrants,

GP850mAh
19-04-11, 18:33
Without immigration all development dies. Some EU countries are in big trouble when it comes to birth rates… and one of them is Italy with a birth rate of 1,2 I believe it is. And it need to be at 2,1.

In Demark its at around 1,8 still we have a big problem in the next 10 years. We have the so called baby-boomer generations that will retire. With the result of for every person working we will have 2 on pension. So in Denmark we will crash and burn if we don’t get immigrants.

Italy needs big reforms when it comes to the birth rate. Government needs to have incentives to increase it or there won’t be Italians.

And your Idea of a protectionist society is the formula for a country to fail. Examples of countries like that are North Korea, Albania under communist dictatorship. And if all were forced back to were they are from the world economy would crash and burn.

I don't know where you got your numbers from, but they don't fit the numbers I'm looking at. The birth rate in Europe has increased over the last year and in the countries you mention the fertility rate has increased aswell. Like in italy the numbers I found says the fertility rate is 1.42. Still it is far below the replacement level of 2.1.

GP850mAh
19-04-11, 18:43
Are you in favour of immigration?
both of people who migrate in your country and your connationals who migrate in other countries...

Yes, but not nearly as many as todays numbers espesially with the bad economic times in Europe and the high unemployment rates. Europe should try and become as udependent on immigration as possible and instead take in fewer and better immigrants than we do today.

Rastko Pocesta
28-04-11, 15:30
I strongly support illegal immigrants. It is now illegal to travel accross the planet we share. That shall be abolished, right of free movement is the basic human right. If you have no weapons with yourself you are welcome to enter my country, that is my philosophy. If you break the law, you will be treated equally like everyone else who does that - brought to Court with your right to fair trial and sentenced to the punishment that fits the crime.

LeBrok
28-04-11, 17:17
What if many likes your country and 100 million will come, or maybe a billion, lol. See, like many things in our world, they sound beautiful on paper, but they won't work in real life.

Anton, Bear's den
28-04-11, 17:24
I strongly support illegal immigrants. It is now illegal to travel accross the planet we share. That shall be abolished, right of free movement is the basic human right. If you have no weapons with yourself you are welcome to enter my country, that is my philosophy. If you break the law, you will be treated equally like everyone else who does that - brought to Court with your right to fair trial and sentenced to the punishment that fits the crime.

These guys are first in queue, take them first, such a lovely people
4793
4794
4795

:laughing:

Rastko Pocesta
29-04-11, 00:46
If they hurt anybody or use hate speech or in any other way break the law they shall be brought to court like everyone else and sentenced on the punishment that fits the crime. There's nothing complexed in it. Everyone is equal before the law.

LeBrok
29-04-11, 04:12
Again, what if they are tolerant, but 100 million tolerant nice people will come, or a billion? Do you have room there?!
How will you chose which one to let in? Lottery? Higher IQ or hygiene?

Let's say Germany opened it's borders, just to share the planet and basic human rights. How many you think, would come from around the world?
If 2 billion of humans live on a dollar or or two a day on this planet, how many would hesitate to be poor in Germany, living on their social net? The only limitation would be to get the money for trip to Germany, lol.

Rostko, try thinking about all aspects of the issue and not only how nice it sounds on paper!

Anton, Bear's den
29-04-11, 14:18
Again, what if they are tolerant, but 100 million tolerant nice people will come, or a billion? Do you have room there?!
How will you chose which one to let in? Lottery? Higher IQ or hygiene?

Let's say Germany opened it's borders, just to share the planet and basic human rights. How many you think, would come from around the world?
If 2 billion of humans live on a dollar or or two a day on this planet, how many would hesitate to be poor in Germany, living on their social net? The only limitation would be to get the money for trip to Germany, lol.

Rostko, try thinking about all aspects of the issue and not only how nice it sounds on paper!

Liberals don't care about such "little things" as 100 millions of immigrants from black continent for example, they cares only about their dogmas.

Rastko Pocesta
29-04-11, 14:34
Again, what if they are tolerant, but 100 million tolerant nice people will come, or a billion? Do you have room there?!
How will you chose which one to let in? Lottery? Higher IQ or hygiene?

Let's say Germany opened it's borders, just to share the planet and basic human rights. How many you think, would come from around the world?
If 2 billion of humans live on a dollar or or two a day on this planet, how many would hesitate to be poor in Germany, living on their social net? The only limitation would be to get the money for trip to Germany, lol.

Rostko, try thinking about all aspects of the issue and not only how nice it sounds on paper!

Well, that's a good thing, in my opinion - hundred million new taxpayers! That way, state would be able to handle the social issues better, because it would get more money from the taxes.

LeBrok
29-04-11, 17:09
Taxpayers like these?! Social issues are handled all right...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYAm9Gv-Zcc&feature=player_detailpage#t=4s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYAm9Gv-Zcc&feature=player_detailpage#t=4s)http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xYAm9Gv-Zcc&feature=player_detailpage

Rastko Pocesta
29-04-11, 17:32
Sweden is 3rd on the Inequality-adjusted Human Development Index report (2010). ;)

Chris
30-04-11, 16:07
In the mass-immigration, low skills, high propensity of going on state aid sense? No. In the low-level, high-skills sense? Yes.

iapetoc
30-04-11, 16:34
Well, that's a good thing, in my opinion - hundred million new taxpayers! That way, state would be able to handle the social issues better, because it would get more money from the taxes.

well seems like you aprove the old Ottoman charats the head tax,
each man must pay tax, no matter how rich he is,

if you ask all those poor people to pay taxes, with out 1rst giving them dwell and jobs, they revolt and they will be right,

simply those people came to take the 'Gifts' of state,

> 2 000 000 in Greece live by state Help, like many children (muslims) Help, or 50 working days Insuranse and unemployment salary,

do you want to take taxes from those people,

TAXES ARE TO take money from the rich and give to poor

not from poor to give the rich (as in modern Greece politicians)

Maciamo
30-04-11, 19:09
It is important to distinguish between the various types of "immigration". Migrants can be high skilled, medium skilled or low skilled. They can seek permanent residency, perhaps with naturalisation, or, on the contrary, be temporarily relocated (like expats or diplomats). There are also individuals who wish to experience life in another country for a few years.

The most common objection to immigration is the case of low-skilled immigrants, especially those coming from poor countries with a very different culture from the host country. Lowe-class Africans and Muslims are typically the least well accepted immigrants in Western countries because the huge socio-economic and cultural gap.

The unemployment rate is not a good indicator for the necessity of immigration, because in most cases the unemployed lack the skills required for the jobs available on the market. That's why jobs are rarely "stolen" by foreigners, and highly skilled workers are sought-after in many developed countries. The cases of jobs really stolen by foreigners is when companies relocate factories, call centres or their accounting or legal departments to developing countries. But in that case it is the salaries that migrate, not the people. Immigration cannot be blamed for it.

Nowadays the logic that immigrants for poor countries are needed to do the jobs that locals don't want to do anymore, or to reduce costs, has become irrelevant. Instead of bringing low-skilled immigrants to work in our factories, it is factories that are relocated. Only a few low-skilled jobs cannot be relocated, like construction workers or cleaners. As immigrants tend to adapt better in cultures closer to their own, it makes sense that the cheap workforce from developing countries in Western Europe or the USA should come from Eastern Europe and Latin America, rather than Muslim countries or Africa.

A good part of the jobless in countries that have had high unemployment rates for decades, like Belgium, France, Italy or Spain, are people who haven't worked in a very long time and probably won't ever work again. Some people are just unhirable because they lack of qualifications, have some sort of disability, or are afflicted by serious social or psychological problems that hinder their chances of finding a job.

Normally, in an open job market like the EU or the USA, that doesn't require visas to move from one state to another, people seeking employment in another state shouldn't be called immigrants (although the term 'migrant worker' is often used), even if the move is permanent. A British couple buying a house in France or Spain for their retirement are not properly speaking immigrants either, as they do not leave the EU and do not need to apply for a visa.

Rastko Pocesta
30-04-11, 20:03
well seems like you aprove the old Ottoman charats the head tax,
each man must pay tax, no matter how rich he is,

if you ask all those poor people to pay taxes, with out 1rst giving them dwell and jobs, they revolt and they will be right,

simply those people came to take the 'Gifts' of state,

> 2 000 000 in Greece live by state Help, like many children (muslims) Help, or 50 working days Insuranse and unemployment salary,

do you want to take taxes from those people,

TAXES ARE TO take money from the rich and give to poor

not from poor to give the rich (as in modern Greece politicians)

Tax the wealthy, that's what I'm saying. ;)

iapetoc
30-04-11, 20:17
well I will try to give an example of a modern emigrant, from a (poor) country,

I come to Greece, i drop my papers at sea, I work 5 years in hidden works for no insurance,

I get nationality, by paid people who swear i live 10 years, i pay 1500 E for that,

then I go back and buy a woman, I make 5 children, so i take public help from state,
my wife has an eternal money help,

i open a small businnes, like a small kafe or haircut, or Gyros,

i hire all my brothers just for 50 days a year, while they work All year,
by 50 days work stamps they have medical insurance all year for the rest of year and after 15 years for rest of life,
with 50 days stamps I can take also public help for unemployment for 6 months and 4 month public help grants.
so I will have a retirement, and my 'brothers' will not,
I dont pay taxes, cause i have a small corporation, and I live in small flat that I rent, 7-10 people,

All my money goes back to my first country, when I will be old enough I maybe have a big Block in my country origin, or many money in Bank,

so was I use full to country I immigrate? or to the bankers and Industry sharks, who wanted to raise profit by using cheap labors, with less insurance,

simply illegal and enormous immigration, drops the lvl of living quality, public health, and public safety, since part of immigrants are also criminals or fortune hunters.
the posibilty of enviroment decrease is still open.

the case of immigration in Europe is raising to scary numbers, lately,

strong Euro pushes that, if i am to work 1 day in south asia or africa, and take same money with 1/2 hour in Europe, if i born a child and get paid for that in Europe, then why to stay there,

now about immigration as multicultural or as Μετοικοι (merchants, diplomats) is different than modern slave-market,
how many people carry illegal immigrants with boats or trucks, why? who pays them to risk that? How much they earn?

a trip from pakistan to Italy,

pakistan to turkey boarders 150 $
from Turkey to Greece 1000 $
from Greece to south italy 5000 $
from Greece to France or Venice 6-8 000 $,

in a news papper only in Greece after E entered more than 2 000 000 while from 1900-2000 almost not 100 000 (except refugees)
today statistics say about 350 people every day manage to cross boarders and about other 350 get caught every day,

What is more Human? to stop Immigration? or to let them in, and when get sick do not accept them in Hospitals?

it is not the same with be an German and at your late retirement buy a house in Italy,

the problem is not immigration or working class movements,
the problem is uncontrolled and illegal immigration.

iapetoc
30-04-11, 20:24
Tax the wealthy, that's what I'm saying. ;)



are you sure, cause in that


Well, that's a good thing, in my opinion - hundred million new taxpayers! That way, state would be able to handle the social issues better, because it would get more money from the taxes.

I recon that you want to collect taxes from the immigrants.

Rastko Pocesta
30-04-11, 21:31
are you sure, cause in that



I recon that you want to collect taxes from the immigrants.

Of course every citizen shall be taxed for his possessions, but the wealthy shall be taxed much, much more. After all, we do not live in turkish feudalism, but in a civilized societies and progressive democracies.

iapetoc
01-05-11, 00:23
but how you ask someone who lives from public or state help to pay taxes?

when Diogenes was infront of ferryman Hades, he said for the ticket price
ουκ αν λαβεις παρα του μη εχοντος,

you can not take something from someone that has nothing,

these people mostly rent a house or a flat, to sleep 7-8-10 people, they live by public help and unemployment salaries,

want estimation?

> 2 000 000 in Greece after olympic games
>4 000 000 live with 50 days work stamps,
from the above half are Greeks, but the rest are immigrants.

most of them eat in church or majors food coupons, how you will collect taxes from them?
some of them will be glad to go to prison in winter, cause it is warm and good food,

media and cinema show them a paradise that they may have the chance to be rich,
or you will collect taxes from their properties in another country,

yes I believe in taxes to the ones who have, but no one can take something from the one that does not have.


to be more specific with numbers,

a country has 10 M and a ballance,
has 4 % unemployment,
it can absorve some immigration, lets say 1 M
country becomes more unbalanced and public spends for help must be cut or raise taxes,
unemployment reaches 10%
put another 1 million fast, more taxes to the 1rst 10 M, lees public health, smugglers start commerce violence and crime raise, and unemployment reach 15%

put another 1 million, taxes start to struggle the first 10 M, public help becomes no help, but a joke, crime raises, red allert for society, unemployment 20%

put another 1 M, first 10 M react, either sell all cause taxes are very high, and move away, either sell and start living like immigrants, in misery conditions asking for public help, (early industrial era). no ones pays taxes cause all sold or cheap,
immigrants getto and political unions raise, the country is not balanced but in a mood for trouble cause unemployment is 25%, crime is at height, goverments start to borrow money from bankers, or start wars to gain, or hrash salaries, in order not to debt,
so a well balanced country with colour and culture, became problematic, no colour, no culture, or just getto and whores culture by uncontrolled immigration.

well the 1rst country is no more the same country, people moved to another, or all became victims of Bankers and slave merchants,
minorities start to make law their culture, and an inner war starts,

well the only we achieve is to destroy a country, make its cities Bronx and NY, drug dealers smugglers and crime every where, but we All Drink Coca-cola, and eat hamburgers, (the fake American Dream, not the real one)

uncontroled and illegal immigrations creates geto and cities inside cities, with all the rest of what that means,

in my last visit to Venice, I thought I was in an Indian bazaar than Rialto,

uncontroled and illegal immigration helps only Banks, Industry sharks, Fortune hunters, and non tax payers,
and creates unemployment, cultural problems, social troubles, and raises public spend and taxes
while decreases public health insurance.

instead of doing the nearby countries like EU (free mind and speech, educated) we are making EU like the countries of immigrants (burka wear, no school for girls etc).

Ask an immigrant, about his country, he will tell you it is paradise,
ask him why he came, he will tell to work
the paradise he lived did not had work for him?
in country of 15% unemployment immigration starts to be a problem.until january, Greeks did not pay tax for a small house of less 100 m2 if it was their only fortune, and if a field smaller than 4 000 m2,
after january, with hrash of salaries even a small house of 50 m2 must pay tax,
000 of houses are to sold, but no one buys them, cause simply immigrants do not want to buy them and pay tax, cause rent by 7 is cheaper.
that decision raise Nazism in greece to 4% in Athens municipal which was never above 0,5% after WW2

that is a true story,
a child born costs 3500-10 000 E average according demands,
an immigrant with green card, brought his wife at 8,5 months pregnancy and send her to born in municipal hospital, with no health insurance, hospital send her away since had at least 1 week and told her to go back,
the next day 50 rioters gather and make troubles and attack doctor and manager,
the case became wide spread, police judges, even the municipal officer came,
the result, the man pay only 50 E he had and the rest from the municipal, to stop troubles,
3500 E from tax payers went away for a clever immigrant, who with out pay any stamp manage with threat to make Greek citizens to pay for child birth,
think unemployed citizen with 1 small house of 50m2 pay taxes for immigrant that has work, and don't have stamps, simply out of mind,
is that multicultural Europe you want?
italian pizza with arabian bread, chinese Gouda cheese, russian ham, argentina bacon, and african mushrooms?

Rastko Pocesta
01-05-11, 18:46
Immigrant like everyone else is obliged to respect the Constitution and the laws.

Regarding state help, of course those people shall not be taxed. The state shall help them find a job and then care about themselves. When their life is no more poverty and misery they become taxpayers.

Anton, Bear's den
01-05-11, 23:42
Immigrant like everyone else is obliged to respect the Constitution and the laws.

Regarding state help, of course those people shall not be taxed. The state shall help them find a job and then care about themselves. When their life is no more poverty and misery they become taxpayers.

I am as a representative of Darth Vader's totalitarian dictatorship political party totally disagree.
4798

4799
Snotty liberals are outdated. My vision:
1) White Europe (on 90-95%)
2) Atheism and Christianity
3) Market economy with social spending on indigenous european population, not newcomers
4) Anti-gay parades
5) Anti-feminism and anti-infringement of the women rights (like in Russia there is no feminism, cultivation of femininity)
6) Ok democratic rule, free strikes and meetings
7) Minimal immigration (only the most useful & smartest people), social spending on youth families instead of social costs for unemployment immigrants
8) Barriers to the negative features of globalization
9) 1 army and military, one for all and all for one
10) Don't like Jedi which constantly say "if you still have not a democracy then we sending our democratic bombers to you!" what the hell.

Reinaert
02-05-11, 00:22
I am as a representative of Darth Vader's totalitarian dictatorship political party totally disagree.
4798

4799
Snotty liberals are outdated. My vision:


Snotty conservatives are like dinosaurs.
They don't live anymore.

iapetoc
02-05-11, 05:57
Immigrant like everyone else is obliged to respect the Constitution and the laws.

Regarding state help, of course those people shall not be taxed. The state shall help them find a job and then care about themselves. When their life is no more poverty and misery they become taxpayers.


Indded you are to the rigt point to that,

but until then, (find jobs, make better life etc) what?
until they become tax payers,
if immigration is bigger than a number that a country can absord?
can a state or a society, accepts 30-40% of immigrants of ots current poppulation with out a shock?
how long and how dangerous that shock will be,

we are not talking about racism, or cultural violence etc,
we are talking about immigration, that will not hurt today societies and countries.

the problem of many countries has exactly that,
stop immigration at boarders by shooting immigrants?
or accept them, but no public healp
(let them die outside hospitals, and don't give them public-state help)

for me a media campaign in the countries in the countries that immigrants came,
to show them real conditions, is the most best way,
a massive report of dis-advertisement Europe as the paradise,

Anton, Bear's den
02-05-11, 08:47
Snotty conservatives are like dinosaurs.
They don't live anymore.

Very funny that in Europe communists & liberals together, such a strange mixture. But you right, if that vid below really made in Brussels, then european conservatives are dead, enjoy


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHyYDcuUrYQ


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrNSRJAtoHk&feature=related


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7qyO9IyfYM&feature=related