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marica mandic
16-04-11, 09:24
Injustice is this.

Former Croatian General Ante Gotovina, regarded as the "hero" of the War of Independence (1991-1995), was sentenced Friday to 24 years imprisonment by the International Criminal Tribunal (ICTY) for the former Yugoslavia war crimes and crimes against humanity committed in 1995 against Serbs in Croatia.

Reinaert
16-04-11, 10:49
Haha.. Don't make me laugh..

marica mandic
16-04-11, 12:33
Haha.. Don't make me laugh..


Judge Alphons Orie is political man. He has got not objectivity.

how yes no 2
16-04-11, 13:30
Judge Alphons Orie is political man. He has got not objectivity.

we are talking about military campaign against UN protected area in which between 200 000-250 000 people had to flee their homes....around 800 defenders and 1200 civilians were killed in that action... many of them in brutal way, massacred and tortured...... destiny of around 2100 people is still unkown.... during the action many (up to 20 000) houses were deliberately destroyed in order to make return of refuges more difficult... refuges were discouraged from returning in various ways...one of them was random accusations of people who returned to their homes for war crimes and arresting them....other ways included e.g. violence against people who returned.... as a result, the percentage of the people who returned to their homes is negligible....

all together it is very clear case of war crime and ethnic cleansing... if Croatia's first president Tudjman was still alive he would be sentenced too, as there are overwhelming evidences against him...

btw. we do talk about the area that was in World war 2 location of large genocide... official policy of right-wing Croat ustashas was to kill 1/3 of local Serb population, to expell 1/3 and to convert to catholics the remaining third... as a result this has decimated local Serb population in ways that made even some German troop commanders disgusted and terrified with atrocities made and filing complaints to their command...

now about Gotovina...he has a profile of paid soldier in many wars and of suspected criminal...


At the age of sixteen, Gotovina left home to become a sailor. In 1973, before turning eighteen, he joined the French Foreign Legion under the pseudonym of Andrija Grabovac and became a member of the 2nd Foreign Parachute Regiment (2e REP) after qualifying at the Training School in Pau before joining the elite Commandos de Recherche et d'Action en Profondeur (CRAP) now renamed as Parachute Commando Group (GCP). It was there he met Dominique Erulin, brother of the Colonel Philippe Erulin, who would be his friend and partner in future missions.[5] In the next few years, he participated in Foreign Legion operations in Djibouti, the Battle of Kolwezi in Zaire, and missions in the Ivory Coast, becoming Colonel Erulin's driver. After five years of service, he left the Legion with the rank of caporal-chef; he obtained French citizenship in 1979.[1][6]
He subsequently worked for a variety of French private security companies during the 1980s, among them KO International Company, a filial of VHP Security, known as a cover for the Service d'Action Civique (SAC), and was at this time responsible for the security of far-right politician Jean-Marie Le Pen.[7][8] In 1981, together with Dominique Erulin, he helped editor Jean-Pierre Mouchard (a close friend of Jean-Marie Le Pen) organize a commando to free his press in La Seyne-sur-Mer, occupied by CGT trade-union strikers.[7][8]
According to French police records, he became involved in criminal activities, which led to arrest warrants being issued for robbery and extortion; it has been reported that he served at least one two-year prison sentence, though this has been denied by his attorneys.[9] Dominique Erulin claims the accusations were a political ploy made up by the left-wing factions allied with President François Mitterrand.[5] Towards the end of the decade he moved to South America, where he provided training to a number of right-wing paramilitary organizations, notably in Argentina and Guatemala. He met his future wife, Ximena Dalel, in Colombia and had a daughter; they later divorced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ante_Gotovina

Gotovina is a man who has long history of being paid soldier in numerous dirty wars in which civilians were killed without mercy ... .. you should better wonder how could people with such profile become generals.... doesn't that already speak of criminal intentions of politicians who placed such person in command?


but it is hard for many Croats and Bosnia muslims to get used to idea that they were not victims but active participants in the Balkan wars..... media propaganda of their right-wing political leadership from 90s is still in their minds.... .

Aconform
16-04-11, 13:45
It is not my impression that the international criminal tribunal is run badly. They look at the evidence and the system seems fair to me.

The problem is your hero might have also done something bad. Might not have done anything directly but as a general is responsible for his troops.

It is hard pill to swallow, but even though he has done good things he still accountable for any human rights abuse under the war.

Its clear that all sides in the wars there had a hard time respect human rights. And the ones that did these atrocious acts need to face a judge.

If the guilty are not punished then it will be on the people. The people need to have the attitude that anyone that did act inhumanly needs to answer for his crimes.

I for one cant respect anyone that is guilty of human rights abuse. No matter how many good deeds they have done.

marica mandic
16-04-11, 14:52
Why Netherland people are against Croat?
Gotovina is hero. We in Croatia without Gotovina and another similar people we will be death.
We try to find friends in EU , but they want not to help us.
Serbians have better lobby in Netherland, therefore you are against us.
I hope that Croatia and Netherland can be better friends.

marica mandic
16-04-11, 15:02
Srebrenica 1995. Netherland troops needed to stop killing, but they did not .
Human rights?
UN left 8000 to die in Bosnia.
http://www.gendercide.org/case_srebrenica.html

Aconform
16-04-11, 15:17
Why Netherland people are against Croat?
Gotovina is hero. We in Croatia without Gotovina and another similar people we will be death.
We try to find friends in EU , but they want not to help us.
Serbians have better lobby in Netherland, therefore you are against us.
I hope that Croatia and Netherland can be better friends.

It is not a question of any EU nation against Croats, Serbs or Bosnians. Only way to have a future in the Balkans is that the ones that did something wrong need to be held accountable. If the victims don’t get justice they might take the law in their own hands.

Don’t think that any of the ones that are charged with war crimes are not seen as heroes for their people. But now all need to was the hands of the blood that was spilled. In don’t believe that the people in general wanted them to go around and kill innocent civilians.

I’m somewhat surprised that there hast been a more aggressive approach from people against anyone from their own that are suspect for crimes.

how yes no 2
16-04-11, 15:22
Why Netherland people are against Croat?

I am from Serbia.... Dutch flag comes from the Eupedia form that asks about state where we live in... perhaps those flags should be removed as they are confusing...


Gotovina is hero.

you might have overly black and white picture of the world...

what often happens in wars is typical group behavior in which world is viewed through black and white "them" and "us" picture.... most atrocities in world were done by people believing they are doing good... well, look at islam fanatics who do terrorist acts, or at medieval priests who were hunting for witches... those are examples of people blinded with black and white view of the world... same black and white world view is visible in many soldiers and civilians involved in war...often mass-media contribute to such views...

in short, heros do war crimes too...
being brave soldier and having empathy for other human beings often do not go hand in hand...

while you can see Gotovina as your hero for being brave soldier, he is in same time war criminal because his forces committed war crimes... it is as simple as that...

same is with some Serb military personnel that can be in some respect regarded as heros, and in other as war criminals... Ratko Mladic is still hero for many Serbs... because in their view he organized an army that defended them from neo-ustashi attempt to kill 1/3, expell 1/3 and convert to catholics the reminder...

in my viewpoint, Mladic messed up very badly in several cases - taking UN soldiers as hostages to prevent NATO air strikes, not sending forces to defend local Serbs in Croatia when they were attacked by several times larger Croatian forces, and not preventing war crimes in Srebrenica area...


We in Croatia without Gotovina and another similar people we will be death.
non-sense...

with exception of Dubrovnik, Serb forces in that war never tried to conquer Croat settled areas...
worst battles were in areas with heavily mixed population (Vukovar suffering the most) and on borderline between Serb settled and Croat settled areas there was occasional mutual shelling...

than situation was frozen by UN forces...

situation ended with attack of several times larger Croat forces on local Serbs that caused most of the Serbs to leave their homes and flee to Serbia... attack came after Croat forces were trained for months by private companies of retired American generals...

overall, war in Bosnia was much more heavy and had much more civilian suffering and war crimes going on because populations of Serbs, muslims and Croats were much more mixed....


We try to find friends in EU , but they want not to help us.
Serbians have better lobby in Netherland, therefore you are against us.
I hope that Croatia and Netherland can be better friends.

I am surprise with this attitude...
there are no friends and enemies in foreign policy...there are interests..
Croatian politicians did always understand that better than Serbian ones...

and Netherlands has nothing to do with tribunal in Hague...that is international tribunal and judges are not Dutch... same tribunal did charge several Serb politicians and army officers, also from local Serb rebels in Croatia war...

so I do not see why is it problem that all war crimes are treated equally..

Regarding allusions about Netherlands politics being against Croatia and pro-Serbian, it is laughable...
Netherlands is the country that keeps halting the process of integration of Serbia into EU by insisting on full cooperation with tribunal in Hague... even though Serbia has sent to tribunal in Hague all suspects it could catch (over 90% of suspects) and had allowed Hague tribunal insight into all classified documents (similar requests were often ignored in Croatia)....


Srebrenica 1995. Netherland troops needed to stop killing, but they did not .
Human rights?
UN left 8000 to die in Bosnia.
http://www.gendercide.org/case_srebrenica.html

same was in Croatia...
UN forces were supposed to protect people attacked by Croatian forces led by general Gotovina...
but they just stepped aside...

essentially reason is that it is politically hard decision to get involved in a war where you came in order to supervise situation and separate conflicting forces...it is same as when two people are fighting and third one tries to separate them... rarely will a person who want to separate people in conflict actually use force to do so....especially if the people in conflict are stronger.... and those UN forces were typically not strong enough to defend even themselves .. other thing is that those so called demilitarized zones were not demilitarized and had own armies.... there were constant attacks from Srebrenica on surrounding Serb positions and villages... of course, it is a war and strategy to keep enemy forces busy on wide area.... but when there is action, there is reaction....

marica mandic
16-04-11, 16:07
It is not a question of any EU nation against Croats, Serbs or Bosnians. Only way to have a future in the Balkans is that the ones that did something wrong need to be held accountable. If the victims don’t get justice they might take the law in their own hands.

Don’t think that any of the ones that are charged with war crimes are not seen as heroes for their people. But now all need to was the hands of the blood that was spilled. In don’t believe that the people in general wanted them to go around and kill innocent civilians.

I’m somewhat surprised that there hast been a more aggressive approach from people against anyone from their own that are suspect for crimes.


That means , for example, ex president of USA Bush ,send in Irak force, one soldier kill for example 100 people, than Bush need to go in prison 20 years.
But Bush is ex. president of USA.
What will be if Gotovina is USA soldier?

marica mandic
16-04-11, 16:13
there are no friends and enemies in foreign policy...there are interests..


that is the point.
If International community has interest,
Gotovina will be free.
Interest,
we in CROATIA manipulate bad with that.

Aconform
16-04-11, 21:10
That means , for example, ex president of USA Bush ,send in Irak force, one soldier kill for example 100 people, than Bush need to go in prison 20 years.
But Bush is ex. president of USA.
What will be if Gotovina is USA soldier?

Well in theory if Bush has knowledge that it is going on and he doesn’t stop them, then he could face charges. But America is not part of that system they have their own that they use.

Never the les I heard that bush canceled a trip to Austria for fear of getting arrested for war crimes. For torture of prisoners that were going on with his knowledge. But I seriously don’t believe that he will ever stand before a judge for that.

A US soldier will face a judge and many have for war crimes in their own system.

And If Croatia can have a fair system of their own were charges are brought to court for war crimes then I don’t think that anyone can stop them.

Problem is that these people are heroes locally and don’t think the governments have power or guts to arrest them and charge them if they are suspected of crimes.

In Serbia a moderate President Zoran Djindjic started doing this and he was shot.

It is hard to se ones heroes getting charged with crimes. But a crime is a crime and the offender has to pay the price for it.

The best thing, although unrealistic, would be that the warring parties had a joint tribunal after the war. That would have been a good bridge building effort together to go after all that had a hard time being civilized.

how yes no 2
16-04-11, 22:38
The best thing, although unrealistic, would be that the warring parties had a joint tribunal after the war. That would have been a good bridge building effort....
agreed....

Antigone
17-04-11, 06:41
Injustice is this.

Former Croatian General Ante Gotovina, regarded as the "hero" of the War of Independence (1991-1995), was sentenced Friday to 24 years imprisonment by the International Criminal Tribunal (ICTY) for the former Yugoslavia war crimes and crimes against humanity committed in 1995 against Serbs in Croatia.

I think the problem with elevating anyone to the pedestal of the hero is that during the elevation process (and ever after) it is too often forgotten that the supposed hero is only human. Particularly war heroes, when war is always a dirty business and no-one has clean hands.

marica mandic
18-04-11, 08:34
I think the problem with elevating anyone to the pedestal of the hero is that during the elevation process (and ever after) it is too often forgotten that the supposed hero is only human. Particularly war heroes, when war is always a dirty business and no-one has clean hands.

Without fight we would be without state, or we would be just one too much smaller country.
We need to have good politicans now,that is what we need.
Just good political fight we need now, and to correct this injustice.

iapetoc
18-04-11, 10:24
Why Netherland people are against Croat?
Gotovina is hero. We in Croatia without Gotovina and another similar people we will be death.
We try to find friends in EU , but they want not to help us.
Serbians have better lobby in Netherland, therefore you are against us.
I hope that Croatia and Netherland can be better friends.


The time of Heroes has ended In EU,
although Yugoslavian divide wars were the last I hope, Eu do not want Heroes any more,

with the same Eye Serbian general of Bagna Luka, i can't remember his name, is a national Hero,
UCK has its own,
But today NATO rules,
so only Nato generals are Heroes,
if a war, even for Freedom or rights etc is going and not have NATO bless
then Heroes are criminals,
No body is against you,

It is modern system,
EU bankers and politicians will not allow national Heroes,
Nationalism is against EU politic,
they want only hard labour, cheap labour to compit china,
any nationalistic movement, is a cloak bomb against EU.
If we understand that Croatia is now inEU,
then you must understand that Heroes have no Future in EU,

same is Happening in Greece from 1821,
the Heroes must beg mercy of politicians to survive when peace is ON

marica mandic
18-04-11, 10:52
Hero is much importat element that be element of EU.
Quit nationalisam is in EU now.
What about Intaly, France, Germany.
They all have quit nationalisam.
EU is based on economic elements.
Ethnic nobody want to disapear.

Reinaert
18-04-11, 22:51
You don't seem to understand.
In former Yugoslavia there were no hero's. Only victims.
Yugoslavia became the testing ground for world politics.

It still was the USA against Russia.
With the EU in between.
Some NATO countries played a very strange role.

To understand what happened I advise you to include at least a 100 years of history on the Balkans.

Fascism versus Communism.

Look at the different policies within NATO.

Think about who or what triggered the civil war in Yugoslavia..

And you'll have the answer.

And it really stinks!

BTW.. Hint... Look what happened to Greece.. During the last 100 years!

marica mandic
19-04-11, 09:05
I agree with you that from another centar out of Balkan, all decisions are made.
We as Balkan need to cooperate , to find the common interests,and see their aims.
Maybe we can than manipulate with them,
or al least do not permit them to make of us want they want.

Rastko Pocesta
28-04-11, 15:36
Judge Alphons Orie is political man. He has got not objectivity.

Alphons Orie is most certainly the best judge that tribunal has. Always harsh with war criminals, of whatever nationality. Let's look at his record:

November 17, 2001: Alphonsus Martinus Maria Orie (hereinafter Judge Orie) appointed Judge of the International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia.

December 5, 2003: Stanislav Galić sentenced on 20 years’ imprisonment (Judge Orie presidi...ng in Trial Chamber I)

March 11, 2004: Ranko Češić sentenced on 18 years’ imprisonment (Judge Orie presiding in Trial Chamber I)

March 18, 2004: Miodrag Jokić sentenced on 7 years’ imprisonment (Judge Orie presiding in Trial Chamber I)

March 31, 2004: Darko Mrđa sentenced on 17 years’ imprisonment (Judge Orie presiding in Trial Chamber I)

June 29, 2004: Milan Babić senteneced on 13 years’ imprisonment (Judge Orie presiding in Trial Chamber I)

September 27, 2006: Momčilo Krajišnik sentenced on 27 years’ imprisonment (Judge Orie presiding in Trial Chamber I)

April 4, 2007: Dragan Zelenović sentenced on 15 years’ imprisonment (Judge Orie presiding in Trial Chamber I)

April 3, 2008: Ramush Haradinaj and Idriz Balaj acquitted, Lahi Brahimaj senteneced on 6 years’ imprisonment (Judge Orie presiding in Trial Chamber I)

April 15, 2011: Ante Gotovina sentenced on 24 years’ imprisonment, Mladen Markač sentenced on 18 years’ imprisonment, Ivan Čermak acquitted (Judge Orie presiding in Trial Chamber I)

In my opinion, however, he should have been even harsher in the cases of Gotovina, Haradinaj and Krajišnik. Gotovina should have been sentenced on 27 years, Markač on 23 and Čermak on 17, I don't know for Haradinaj and Balaj but both of them are most certainly guilty and 27 years for Krajišnik is fair but still not enough, in my opinion.

P.S. Don't be silly with accusations of "Great Serbian nationalism", because I got death threats from Serbian nationalists for recognising aggression against Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina , recognising that occupation of Vukovar was savageous and barbaric act et cetera . I also think that Šljivančanin should have been sentenced on 30 years in prison (that's the punishment Prosecution demanded). ICTY is working a great job for us all, with some exceptions of course, for almost 2 decades and we shall be thankful to it.

Rastko Pocesta
28-04-11, 15:51
You don't seem to understand.
It still was the USA against Russia.


Your first comment was great and I wish I could give you reputation for it but I have to spread it around first before giving it to you again (although Maciano got 1 from me for Montenegro & Kosovo). You don't know the facts.

Russia recognised independent Croatia before United States did that. Russia recognised Croatia on 17 February 1992, while USA did that on April 7, 1992. Russia was 47th, while USA was 56th to recognise independent Croatia. Check out this - http://tinyurl.com/686mcb9

War in Yugoslavia was like this:
June 25, 1991 - Croatia and Slovenia secede from Yugoslavia
June 27, 1991 - Yugoslavia invades Croatia and Slovenia
July 7, 1991 - After EU intervenes with Brijuni declaration, war in Slovenia ends with a peace agreement.
August 25, 1991 - After two months of bloody fighting in Croatia, probably the worst and most painful part of that war begins - Vukovar.
October 8, 1991 - After 3 months moratorium expires, Croatia ceases all relations with Yugoslavia.
November 18, 1991 - The tragedy of Vukovar ends with Croatian surrender.
January 15, 1992 - European Union recognises independence of Croatia and Slovenia.
February 29 and March 1, 1992 - On a referendum in Bosnia and Herzegovina (there was a similar one in Croatia in May 1991), majority of population votes for independence.
April 5, 1992 - After invasion of Bosnia and Herzegovina, siege of Sarajevo begins.

Rest of 1992 is decline of peace agreements by the Bosnian Serbs (directly supported by the tyrannical regime in Yugoslavia). It was the bloodiest year of the conflict, along with 1995 when it ended. On May 25, 1993 United Nations Security Council and its respective members, China, France, Russia, United Kingdom, United States, Brazil, Cape Verde, Djibouti, Spain, Hungary, Japan, Morocco, New Zealand, Pakistan and Venezuela, unanimously adopt resolution S/RES/827 hereby establishing International Criminal Tribunal for former Yugoslavia which aims to prosecute individuals responsible for war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocide in the conflict. Earlier that same year, Bosnia and Herzegovina accuses Yugoslavia of genocide to the International Court of Justice (the case ended in February 26, 2007 with the judgement which concluded that genocide took place in Srebrenica in July 1995 and that although Serbia is not guilty of it, it was able to stop it, but it didn't).

In March 1994 Croatia, which committed crime of aggression against Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1992, along with Yugoslavia, ends conflict with it (actually agreement is signed by Mate Boban, president of Herzeg Bosnia, croatian puppet in Bosnia and Herzegovina, not the Croatian regime itself).

On July 11, 1995 Bosnian Serbs occupy Srebrenica and in approximately next 10 days they kill at least 8000 unarmed civilians. In August 1995, Croatian Government commits the joint criminal enterprise, the ethnic cleansing of over 150 000 Serbian civilians which flee to Serbia. On November 21, 1995 Dayton Peace Agreement is achieved and on December 14 it is signed in Paris. That agreement finally ends the Yugoslav conflict.

Srbosjek
02-06-11, 00:50
War in Croatia (for those who dont know).
Let's get some facts straight.
Year 1991: Serbs are 11% of Croatia's population.
They support Slobodan Milosevic's pan-Serbian movement which took JNA/Yugoslav Army under Serbian control. This Army has been financed by all Yugoslav republics (Serbia plus Montenegro 36%, Croatia 28%, Slovenia 19%,..). So, Serbs literally “stole” all these planes, tanks, ships, rockets, guns, howitzers, … and, via their fifth column, Croatian Serbs, embarked upon their provincial imperial expansion: they wanted to occupy the entire Bosnia and Herzegovina & ca. 70% of Croatia. This was a combined aggression: Serbia proper + Montenegro +JNA + Croatian Serbs.
During expansionist aggression against Croatia, JNA deployed 4 out her 6 armored brigades, and 11 out 12 mechanized ones.
Thanks to president Tudjman's wise manoeuvres, Croatia has, by the end of 1991., partially armed herself, so after the truce, Serbs began their butchering in Bosnia and Herzegovina.
Year 1995: Srebrenica massacre had happened & the world was fed up with Serbian savagery. Croatia, now armed & ready, launched a two-pronged assault (160.000 against Serbian para-state “Krajina”, 55.000 dug in Eastern Slavonia as the deterrent against Milosevic). The rag-tag Army of Croatian Serbs (40.000 of them) virtually collapsed in two days & fled, along with them their families- perhaps 120-150.000 people in all. In the meantime: from 1991-1995 Serbs in the UN protected zones in Croatia (the so called UNPA zones of "Krajina") murdered more than 600 elderly and incapacitated Croats, mostly peasant women- while Danish, Dutch, Kenyan and Jordanian troops just looked by; during Operation Storm, in the sector where general Gotovina was in charge- they just fled, even before Croatian troops arrived. Let's be frank: the Hague court tries to compensate Serbs, emotionally, for the loss of Kosovo. And that's all.
Just to remind people what Serbs are http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9SufjAxwZNQ