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julia90
19-04-11, 01:21
Etruscan Language traducted by an albanian expert in langauges and history



1-Te urat tan na la rez ula me vaχr.
Geg. Te uret tan na lan rrez ulë më varr.
StA. Të urtët tanë na lanë rreze (dritë) poshtë në varr.
Our nobles left us rays(light) down the grave.
I nostri nobili ci ha lasciato i raggi (luce) fino alla tomba.


2-Lautn Velθinaš' eštla, Afunaš slel, eθ ca ru te zan fušle.
Geg. Eshtnat e te lartit Velthina, Afuna siell, edh ka ru te zan guvn (pusn).
StA. Eshtrat e të lartit Velthina, Afuna sjell, dhe ka ruajtur të zënë guvën (pusin).
Great Velthina's bones Afuna brings and has occupied the cave.
Le ossa del Grande Velthina ,Afuna le porta ed hanno occupato la grotta.


3-Ri tesn; šte iš Rašneš i pa ama, hen naper χi i Velthinaθuraš arasš.
Geg. Rri tesh; si te ish etrusk i pa ken, hin naper hi i Velthinas s' art.
StA. Rri tani; si të ish etrusk i pa qenë, hyn nëpër hijen e Velthinas së artë.
Rests now; like to be a nonexistent etruscan, enters through the vision of the golden Velthina.
Ora riposa: come essere un etrusca inesistente, entra attraverso la visione della Velthina dorata.



4-Peraš cem ul, mlescul.
Geg. Periasht kem ul, mpleksun.
StA. Përjashta jemi ulur, mpleksur (bashkë).
Outside (of the cave) we rest, together.
Al di fuori (della caverna) ci riposiamo, insieme.


5-Zu ci enesci epl tu laru Auleši, Velθinaš Arznal clenši.
Geg. Zu ki prifti epr tu lartu Aulesin, birin erznor te Velthinas.
StA. Zuri ky prifti epër të lartojë Aulesin, birin erznor të Velthinas.
The old priest began to laud Aulesi, the successor in honour of Velthina.
Il vecchio prete cominciò a lodare Aulesi, il successore in onore di Velthina.

6-Θi i θil šcuna cenu, eplc felic.
Geg. Thirr e thirr shkun ketu, plak e filik.
StA. Thirr e thirr shkuan këtu, plak e filik.
Speaking loudly they came here, the old man and the junior
Parlando ad alta voce(forte) sono venuti qui, il vecchio e il giovane.



7-Larθalš, Afuniš clan, θunχul θe falaš.
Geg. Larthali, djali i Afunas, ndigjon thenie fialsh.
StA. Larthali, çuni i Afunas, dëgjon thënie fjalësh.
Larthal, Afunis son, hears words saying
Larthal, figlio Afunis, ascolta le parole dicendo
8-Χie m’ fušl e Velθina.
Geg. Hie m’pus (guv) e Velthinas.
StA. Hije në pus (guvë) e Velthinas.
Ghost of Velthina into the cave.
L'ombra di Velthina nella grotta.

9-Hin θa cap e, mu ni clet, ma su.
Geg. Hin ta kap e, mu ni kret, ‘ma su.
StA. Hyn ta kap e, mu në krye ( kokë), ama s’mund.
Enters to catch him, just around the head, but can't
Entra per prenderlo, proprio dietro la testa, ma non può


10-Naper šranc zlθi i falšti Velθina.
Geg. Naper shtankie, zanthi i folshte Velthina.
StA. Nëpër shtangje, zëthi i fliste Velthina.
While shrinking back, voicedly spoke Velthina
Mentre contraeva dietro, una voce chiamò Velthina


11-Hut naper penezš, ma su.
Geg. Hutet naper pamje, ‘ma su.
StA. Hudhet nëpër pamje (fantazmë ), ama s’mund.
Jumps through the vision, but can’t
Consente di passare attraverso la visione(fantasmi), ma non può


12- A-c nina! Clel Afuna.
Geg. A ka noni ! Klith Afuna.
StA. A ka ndonji ! Klith Afuna.
Is there any one! Cried Afuna
C'è qualcuno ! Grido Afuna


13-Velθina mler zinia.
Geg. Velthinan e mlon zinia.
StA. Velthinën e mbulon zija (terri).
The darkness covered Velthina
A velthina la copre l'oscurità


14-Inte ma mer cnl.
Geg. Ende ma mer nisjen (rrugen).
StA. Ende ma merr nisjen (rrugën ).
Again he takes the way
Nuovamente prende la strada(la via)


15-Velθina zia, šaten e tesne.
Geg. Velthina zi, zaten e tesh.
StA. Velthina zi (terr), si atëherë (përsëri) e tani.
Velthina under the darkness, now and then.
Velthina sotto il buio, come prima e nuovamente


16-E ca Velθinaθuraš ! - θa urah e lutes ne Rašne.
Geg. E ka Velthina ! - tha urata e lutet ne Rashne.
StA. E ka Velthina ! – tha urata e lutet në Rashne.
It belongs to Velthina’s body! Said the prayer and prays on Rashne.
Esso appartiene al corpo di Velthina! Disse la preghiera e prega in Rashne(etrusco).


17-Ce i tesn, šte iš Rašneš χimθ, špelθ uta šcuna; Afuna mena hen.
Geg. Ke i tesh, si te ish Hy Rashnesh, n’shpell ata shkun; Afuna hin mrena.
StA. Që tani, si të ish Hy Rashnesh, në shpellë ata erdhën; Afuna hyn brenda.
Just now, like He was Rashnesh god, they came at the cave; Afuna enters in.
Proprio ora, come se fosse dio Etrusco, giunsero alla grotta; Afuna entra dentro


18-Naper ci cnl - hare, utu še Velθina šatena.
Geg. Naper ket rrug – hare, aty she Velthinan zatena.
StA. Nëpër këtë rruge – hare, aty sheh Velthinan përsëri.
Through this delight way, there hi sees Velthina again.
Attraverso questa delizioza strada, li vede Velthina nuovamente.


19-Zu ci enesci i pa špela ne θi fulumχva.
Geg. Zu ki prifti e pa shpelln ne thirje yjsh.
StA. Zu ky prifti e pa shpellën në thirrje yjesh.
The priest saw the cave on stars crying.
Il sacerdote ha visto la grotta al richiamo delle stelle.


20-Špel θi, rene θi.
Geg. Shpella thirr, rena thirr.
StA. Shpella thirr, reja thirr.
The cave cries, the clouds cry
La grotta la chiamava , le nuovole lo chiamavano.

21-Ešt a - c Velθina; a - ci lun e tu ru ne, šcu ne Zea.
Geg. Esht aty ( ja ku) Velthina, ja ku lun e tu ru ne, shku ne Zoti.
StA. Ja ku është Velthina, ja ku luan e duke na ruajtur ne, shkon në Zoti.
There is Velthina, there he mooves, watching on us, goes to the God.
Ecco dov'è Velthina, eccola mentre gioca e ci protegge a noi , sta andando da Dio.


22-Zu ci enesci: A θu mi cš Afunaš, pe nθ na ama Velθina.
Geg. Zu ki prifti: A thu mi kush Afunas, pe ne na ishte Velthina.
StA. Zu ky prifti: A më thotë kush mua Afunas, pe në na ishte Velthina.
The priest said: Is there any one who tells me, Afunas, if you saw there was Velthina
Il prete ha detto: C'è uno che mi dice, Afunas, se visto che c'era Velthina



23-Afunaθur u niei n’ zeri una claθil θunχulθl.
Geg. Afuna e niu n’ zeri nja klithm qi ndigjon.
StA. Afuna e njeh n’zëri thirrjen që dëgjon.
Afuna knew by the voice the cry hearing.
Afuna conosce dalla voce il richiamo che sente.

24- Iχ ca ceχa ziχuχe.
Geg. I ket kena shkrujt.
StA. Këtë kemi shkruar.
Just that we have written
Questo abbiamo scritto




Etruscan....Albanian..........English

Te urat........te uret.............nobles.
Tan.............tan..................our.
Na la...........na la...............left us.
Rez.............rrez.................rays.
Ula..............ul, pošt...........down, under.
Ul...............ul (v)...............drop, to lower.
Me..............m', ne.............in, into.
Vaχr………varr................grave.
Lautn………(i) lart............high, great.
Eštla……….eštra..............bones.
Slel…………siell...............bring.
Eθ………….edh...............and.
Ca………….ca.................has.
Ru…………ru..................watch.
Zan…………zan...............occupied.
Fušle.............pus, guv.........1- cave; 2- well (n)
Ri..................ri, rri..............rest.
Tesn..............teš.................now.
Šte iš.............si te iš...........like he was.
Rasnes...........etrusc............etruscan.
I pa ama........i pa cen..........nonbeing.
Hen...............hin.................enter.
Naper..........naper, neper....through.
Χi…………..χi, χie..........vision.
Araš...............art..............golden.
Peraš..............periašt.......outside.
Cem ul...........cem ul........seat down.
Ul..................ul...............down, drop.
Mlescul..........mplecsun....together.
Zu..................zu...............began.
Ci..................ci.................this.
Enesci............prifti.............priest.
Epl.................epr.............older.
Tu..................tu.................to.
Laru...............lartu.............laud.
Arznal............erznor.........honest.
Clenši.............biri.............son.
Θi…………..Θir, Θirie....cry.
Θil………….Θirie...........crying.
Šcuna............Šcun.............went.
Cenu.............cetu...............here.
Eplc..............plac...............old man.
Felic..............felic, filic........junior.
Clan..............chun, dial.......boy.
Θunχul……..dengioi..........hear.
Θe…………Θem..............say, saying.
Falaš.............fialš................of words.
Fusl..............pus, guv..........cave, well.
E...................e.....................and.
Hin.................hin..................enters.
Θa………….Θa..................said.
Cap…………cap................catch.
E……………e....................and.
Mu………….mu...................just.
Ni…………..ne, ni, n'...........in.
Clet…………cret.................head.
Ma………….'ma, ama...........but.
Su…………..su, s'mund.........can't.
Šranc.............Štanc, Štang.....shrink.
Zlθi…………zeθi, zešm........voicedly.
Falšti.............folšti ................spoke.
Hut................hut, huθ.............jumps.
Penezš...........pamie................vision, look.
A-c-nina...........a ca noni........is there anyone.
Clel...............cliθ.....................cry.
Mler..............mlon, mbulon......cover.
Zinia.............zinia, zia...............darkness.
Inte...............ende.....................again.
Ma mer.........ma mer................take sth.
Cnl................nisien, rugen.........way.
Šaten.............zaten, perseri.......again.
E...................e............................. .
E ca...............e ca......................it belongs to.
Θa…………..Θa......................said.
Ura………….urata....................priest.
Lutes……….lutet.......................prays.
Ne…………..ne........................on.
Rašne.............zot........................god .
Ce i tesn.........ce i teš.................just now.
Ximθ ……….χi, hy...................Lord, god.
Špelth...........špel........................c ave.
Uta................ata.........................the y.
Hare...............hare......................delig ht.
Utu................aty.........................the re, next to.
Še..................še, šeh...................sees.
Pa..................pa.........................saw .
Fulumχva…...yj, yje.....................stars.
Rene………..rene, reia................clouds.
est-a-c……...ešt (ia cu)................there he is.
A-ci………….ia cu........................there.
Lun…………lun.............................moo ves.
Tu…………..tu..............................to .
Ru…………..ru.............................wat ch.
Ne…………..ne.............................us
Šcu..............šcu, šcoj................go
Zea...............zot...........................go d
Θu…………..θu, θuaj..................say(secnd. pers. singl.)
Mi…………..mi, mua......................me
Cš..................cuš........................ .wh o
Pe..................pe..........................sa w (secnd. pers. singl.)
Nθ ………….nese..........................if
Na ama……..na ište.......................sb/sth was
Niei………….niu, niohu...................knew
N’zeri……….n' zeri.........................by the voice
Una ………...nia, nie.......................one
Claθil……….cliθm........................... cry (n)
...............clai, chiai.....................cry, weep.
θil............θir, θirie.......................call (n&v)
Iχ ca……….i cet.............................just that
Ceχa………..cena, cemi...................have
Ziχuχe……...šcru,šcruar.................... writte n

Taranis
19-04-11, 10:57
Why are you posting this in genetics? This is about linguistics!

In any case, I consider this purported connection very unlikely:

- For beginners, Albanian is an Indo-European language, whereas Etruscan, for all what we know, isn't (though it has Indo-European influences, and conversely Etruscan had some influences on Indo-European languages, principally Latin, which in turn also had influence on Albanian).

- Etruscan is attested circa 8th through 1st century BC, while Albanian is attested from 15th century onwards. This is a very long time, which makes it doubtful for cognates in this style to exist: they would invariably have to be subject to sound laws, and I'm not seeing any sound laws here.

- Etruscan doesn't distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants (D/T, B/P and G/K). Etruscan does however distinguish between aspirated (Kh, Ph, Th) and unaspirated (K, P, T) stop consonants. Albanian, in contrast, does distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, and doesn't have aspiration. In addition, Albanian has a number of other phonetic features (a bewildering variety of africate, fricative and nasal sounds) generally absent in Etruscan.

- Etruscan has four base vowels (a,e,i,u), akin to the Anatolian languages. Albanian distinguishes between seven vowels, a,e,ë,i,o,u,y.

Also, the thread title does not make any sense: "Etruscans=Illyrians=Pelasgi". :startled:

- The Illyrians were Indo-European peoples of the western Balkans in Antiquity. The Illyrian language is one of the candidates for the ancestor of the Albanian language (the other hypothesis is Dacian/Thracian). Without further going into detail, the term "Pelasgians" is extremely problematic. In any case, equating Etruscans, Illyrians and Pelasgians makes no sense.

zanipolo
19-04-11, 11:27
while this is in the wrong area to post , the connection that the etruscans ( with the eneti and others) would have had to march from anatolia, through thrace, through northern greece, through illyrian lands into Italy.
We do not believe they sailed into Italy with thousands of ships do we!

Be this the case, how long would that march have taken ?

Taranis
19-04-11, 11:49
while this is in the wrong area to post , the connection that the etruscans ( with the eneti and others) would have had to march from anatolia, through thrace, through northern greece, through illyrian lands into Italy.
We do not believe they sailed into Italy with thousands of ships do we!

Be this the case, how long would that march have taken ?

The Adriatic (V)eneti are completely unrelated with the Etruscans. The Venetian language was clearly an Indo-European language which bears similarities with the Italic, Celtic and Germanic languages. Regarding the statement of "thousands of ships", that wasn't really necessary if you consider how much smaller populations back then were. I think that a migration by sea isn't all that implausible.

spongetaro
19-04-11, 11:57
while this is in the wrong area to post , the connection that the etruscans ( with the eneti and others) would have had to march from anatolia, through thrace, through northern greece, through illyrian lands into Italy.
We do not believe they sailed into Italy with thousands of ships do we!

You are assuming that Etruscan invaders were the majority in Central Italy

zanipolo
19-04-11, 12:35
The Adriatic (V)eneti are completely unrelated with the Etruscans. The Venetian language was clearly an Indo-European language which bears similarities with the Italic, Celtic and Germanic languages. Regarding the statement of "thousands of ships", that wasn't really necessary if you consider how much smaller populations back then were. I think that a migration by sea isn't all that implausible.

While not agreeing or disagreeing with Julia As I do not know, that facts are as i know it, was that both the venetic and etruscan people went to Italy from anatolia. While i agree that populations where small, the facts are that the ancient etruscan lands where the biggest in Italy as they also incorporated lombardia and emilia-romagna. You cannot come by sea with a few hundred men and take all this land. Granted , I would like to see what was the initial etrucans lands at around 1000BC.

As for venetic language ( and I know modern venetian) , to me I think ( my assumption ) is that in its oldest form it was similar to friuli language ( a rhaetian base) over time, the venetics on the western where firsly etruscanized, then latinized in language , while the eastern venetic land ( beyond the julian alps) where firstly celtinized , and later slavized.
While friulian is hard for me to understand listening to it being spoken, looking at the written words, a high % is similar to venet ( venetain )

And I agree with you that old Venetic ( etruscan base symbols) , as per
Mego Donasto Reitiai
I donated to Retia ( in English)
is Mi go donasto a Reitia ( modern Venet) are basically the same.

Taranis
19-04-11, 12:55
Zanipolo, as far as I know, there is no evidence that the Veneti came from Anatolia. Just because they used the Etruscan alphabet doesn't mean that they were related with the Etruscans. This alphabet was also used to write a number of other languages, including Celtic (Gaulish and Lepontic) and Italic (Oscan, Umbrian) languages, as well as the Raetian language.

Also, I didn't claim that ancient Venetic and modern Venetian are "basically the same". Venetic "Mego" ("me") is accusative, just like "Mik" in Gothic and "Mich" in German.

zanipolo
19-04-11, 13:09
Zanipolo, as far as I know, there is no evidence that the Veneti came from Anatolia. Just because they used the Etruscan alphabet doesn't mean that they were related with the Etruscans. This alphabet was also used to write a number of other languages, including Celtic (Gaulish and Lepontic) and Italic (Oscan, Umbrian) languages, as well as the Raetian language.

Also, I didn't claim that ancient Venetic and modern Venetian are "basically the same". Venetic "Mego" ("me") is accusative, just like "Mik" in Gothic and "Mich" in German.

I did not say the venetics where related with the etruscans, I said That in my opinion , the original venetic language would have been close to if not the same a friuli ( raetian language) but over time , eastern venetic people where influenced by etruscan language and so slowly adopted this form of etruscan alphabet system.

Me in venetian is mi, in italian its io, what are you trying to say ?. yes venetians have germanic words like trinkar (to drink) instead of beve in italian, but venetians also have greek words like piron ( fork ) while italian has forchetta. All this means is that vocabalies in the ancient world where never complete and everyone 'borrowed" words from others if needed.

If the estrucans are not lydians, like most scholars say, then where did they come from ?

Ancinet greek scholars said the italic lands where only from Umbria ( not including tuscany) to calabria , the rest where barbarians ( illyrians , celts etc etc ) or phoenicians for the sicilians

Taranis
19-04-11, 14:06
I did not say the venetics where related with the etruscans, I said That in my opinion , the original venetic language would have been close to if not the same a friuli ( raetian language) but over time , eastern venetic people where influenced by etruscan language and so slowly adopted this form of etruscan alphabet system.

Me in venetian is mi, in italian its io, what are you trying to say ?. yes venetians have germanic words like trinkar (to drink) instead of beve in italian, but venetians also have greek words like piron ( fork ) while italian has forchetta. All this means is that vocabalies in the ancient world where never complete and everyone 'borrowed" words from others if needed.

What I'm trying to say is that the modern Venetian language isn't the same as the ancient (pre-Roman) Venetic language.


If the estrucans are not lydians, like most scholars say, then where did they come from ?

Ancinet greek scholars said the italic lands where only from Umbria ( not including tuscany) to calabria , the rest where barbarians ( illyrians , celts etc etc ) or phoenicians for the sicilians

Let me say this: the Etruscan language is extremely problematic (even people of Antiquity considered the presence of them problematic). There is significant evidence that the Etruscans originated in Anatolia. This is both genetic (there is evidence that Etruscan cattle must have been imported from Anatolia circa 1000-1200 BC, and there was also an article on this posted here in the forum, but I do not have the link right now), and also linguistic, but the Etruscan language in itself is problematic nonetheless.

iapetoc
19-04-11, 18:58
just mishudle,

iapetoc
19-04-11, 19:34
Why are you posting this in genetics? This is about linguistics!

In any case, I consider this purported connection very unlikely:

- For beginners, Albanian is an Indo-European language, whereas Etruscan, for all what we know, isn't (though it has Indo-European influences, and conversely Etruscan had some influences on Indo-European languages, principally Latin, which in turn also had influence on Albanian).

- Etruscan is attested circa 8th through 1st century BC, while Albanian is attested from 15th century onwards. This is a very long time, which makes it doubtful for cognates in this style to exist: they would invariably have to be subject to sound laws, and I'm not seeing any sound laws here.

- Etruscan doesn't distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants (D/T, B/P and G/K). Etruscan does however distinguish between aspirated (Kh, Ph, Th) and unaspirated (K, P, T) stop consonants. Albanian, in contrast, does distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, and doesn't have aspiration. In addition, Albanian has a number of other phonetic features (a bewildering variety of africate, fricative and nasal sounds) generally absent in Etruscan.

- Etruscan has four base vowels (a,e,i,u), akin to the Anatolian languages. Albanian distinguishes between seven vowels, a,e,ë,i,o,u,y.

Also, the thread title does not make any sense: "Etruscans=Illyrians=Pelasgi". :startled:

- The Illyrians were Indo-European peoples of the western Balkans in Antiquity. The Illyrian language is one of the candidates for the ancestor of the Albanian language (the other hypothesis is Dacian/Thracian). Without further going into detail, the term "Pelasgians" is extremely problematic. In any case, equating Etruscans, Illyrians and Pelasgians makes no sense.


Tottaly wrong Taranis,
I find many Greek words in the above from ancient Homeric,
in fact Linguistic a lot of the above are Pelasgians,
I Coyuld Give many simmilar Homeric Words

The Pyrgi tablets, has many Pelasgic,

Yes Ancient Illyrians (Not Illyricum) were of the Pelasgic Branch, or that Language are Remnants of Messapian that was Imported in Albanian later,

The case of Thracian/Daci is in case of Modern Albanians, not ancient Illyrian language

The difference that Julia is not mentionong is What Illyria she is speaking,
Cause it is another area Illyria proprie Dicti,
And Another Area Illyricum

I quess Julia is speaking about Albania and the remants of Ancient Ilyrian in today


Yes Etruscans were also Aegean-Anatolians, Before IE Greeks,

In many of my post in some other I say about Pelasgians, Pelasgians are with Thracians the most Ancient civilizations in Balkans,
Pelasgians word Remnants In Greece prove connection with Anatolia and Palestine-Phoenicia,
In fact Today many Greek Linguists are in argument about Alphabet,
modern thoughts prove that Pelasgians-Minoans found alphabet in City of Avaris create the proto-sinaitic code,
Although that is still in early search,

as I said In many of my Post, Don't mess Illyria with Ilyricum,

I don't know what Julia wants to prove and I can not even ques

But Taranis Understand that Pelasgians were A big Culture more Big that you can Imagine,

About Veneti, I never study them so I cant tell,
But the only I know is that Venneto in Ancient Greek was Γαληνο means Blue,
in Byzantine Veneti had same meaning, Blue,
could Veneti be Nation that Later Germans call with eye colour?
the blue eye people???

All I WANT TO REMIND TO JULIA IS THAT MODERN ALBANIAN ARE SATEM
WHILE ANCIENT ILLYRIAN WERE CENTUM

Yes Julia I have many times told that Albania is Part of ancient Pelasgic culture,
it was introduced by Cadmus who's tomb was known until Christians Destroy it,
and even at 400 Bc Lychnitis city was after his family,
Etruscans were also Pelasgians and are more stronger words not IE,
cause in your above words you give half of them
ARE NOT ETRUSCAN BUT IE
like Kus κους (who) is similar serbian ko or greek Ους-os
so by comparing IE with IE I can prove that Etruscans were Slavic or Russians,
But the word simmilar Greek Efi Εφη spoke-told yes it is Pelasgic,
but many words of what you give are IE
and Pelasgic are considered that IE speakers but mostly Aegean-Anatolian and Palestinian,
In fact Pelasgic word that survived can be found Plenty in Ionic Greek Dialect (not Ionian-west, but Ionia minor asia)
Homer uses plenty of Pelasgian
like Erebos Pontus, even the word No in Greek is from Pelasgians ουκ uk
Ανακ-ας high priest or high Ruler etch (Eneski-Priest)

I don't know if Etruscans were Lydians, But surely were Pelasgians,

A-c-nina...........a ca noni........is there anyone.
Clel...............cliθ.....................cry.

like κλαιω κleo - cry in Greek etc are IE words
so if you want to tell us that Etruscans were IE .........
or maybe that imported IE language from Hettit before they move to Thyrrshenia?

hmmmmmm

as I already told in many of my post the Pelasgian words in Albanian language are remnants from Illyros invsiaon from Thyrrenian Theba near Athens to ancient Illyria, which that time was probably Celtic, Thracian we know only in dardania had influence, and not reach Illyria even at alexanders time,
Later Messapic was introduced,
and medieval Slavic - Romanian/Daci- Turkish.

the Greek Branch Arbanitika is more clear language, cause has the less Turkish and slavic words than modern Albanian

κους ε πρεσσε λοντρενε, τι κιεμαι τε μοτρενε,
κιεμαι simmilar Greek γαμε- not modern κ...
μοτρενε - μητρις


Etruscan were not Albanians,
in fact a big % of modern Albanians are from Transylvania from ALba Lullia,
the linguistic simmilarity is either IE, or from ancient Pelasgic

probably julia read Zeus10 bul...t
who always hide that modern Albanian are satem and are the 3nd branch of Baltic languages
just for propaganda reasons

how yes no 2
19-04-11, 22:32
how do we know that this is correct translation?
the text given here is interesting story about a ghost in a cave, but official theory of linguists is that it is about legal contract...


The cippus is assumed to be a text dedicating a legal contract between the Etruscan families of Velthina (from Perugia) and Afuna (from Chiusi), regarding the sharing or use of a property upon which there was a tomb belonging to the noble Velthinas.[1][2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cippus_of_Perugia

I think this translation is interesting material for further studies, but I would like to emphasize that Etruscan was in ancient history considered to be quite different from any known language... if it was the same language as illyrian that would for sure be known.... thus, Albanian is not likely to be very related to both Illyrian and Etruscan...


The ancients were aware that Etruscan was an isolate. In the 1st century BC, the Greek historian Dionysius of Halicarnassus stated that the Etruscan language was unlike any other.[5] Bonfante, a leading scholar in the field, says "... it resembles no other language in Europe or elsewhere ...."[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language

However, not being likely is not the same as not being possible... some time ago, I was also intrigued by tribal name of Tosks resembling Tuscany... and there are somewhat ellevated levels of J2 and R1a YDNA haplogroups in both Tuscany and in Tosk Albanians (not in Ghegs)... So, I do not deny possibility for genetical and perhaps even to some extent linguistic relationships between two areas... btw. there are also interesting attempts to link Etruscan to Finno-Ugric languages...

Maciamo
20-04-11, 08:44
I have moved the thread to the Linguistics subforum.

I personally believe that it is a mistake to classify the Albanian language as purely Indo-European. I think it is originally a language of Old Europe (Neolithic South-East Europe, settled by Near Eastern farmers, so in all likelihood an Afro-Asiatic language), which was later influenced by the overbearing presence of neighbouring Indo-European languages. Garrick pointed out in another thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26169) the similarity between Albanian and Berber languages.

Taranis made a few noteworthy observations here, but the long time span that separate ancient Etruscan from modern Albanian would effectively allow for such phonetic changes (more vowels, distinction between between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants). Just look how French vowels have diverged from other Romance languages and from Latin. As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. Albanian is obviously a hybrid language belonging to two linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European).

Besides the linguistic aspect, it makes sense that Etruscan and Albanian be related to ancient Near Eastern languages, since both ethnic groups were migrants from Anatolia or the Levant, and both are an admixture mostly of haplogroups J2 and E1b1b. I think we could indeed associate the Pelasgians to these two haplogroups. I believe that R1a1a and R1b1b2a1 came later to Greece, Macedonia and Albania. I personally find it most likely that R1a1a was brought by the Mycenaeans, and R1b1b2a1 by the Sea Peoples, Dorians, Celts and Romans.

On the other hand I don't think the Illyrians have anything to do with either the Etruscans or the Albanians.

Maciamo
20-04-11, 09:41
It would be interesting to compare Albanian and Etruscan with Tartessian/Turdetanian, Iberian, and perhaps even Basque language. South Portugal and the Mediterranean coast of Spain were heavily settled by Near-Eastern farmers, then recolonised by the Carthaginians. It would make perfect sense that these languages (all unclassified) originated in the Neolithic Near East, and could therefore be related to Etruscan and Albanian.

Aconform
20-04-11, 10:11
This link is iterresting... a compareson of words.

http://indo-european-migrations.scienceontheweb.net/IE_table.html

iapetoc
20-04-11, 11:04
I have moved the thread to the Linguistics subforum.

I personally believe that it is a mistake to classify the Albanian language as purely Indo-European. I think it is originally a language of Old Europe (Neolithic South-East Europe, settled by Near Eastern farmers, so in all likelihood an Afro-Asiatic language), which was later influenced by the overbearing presence of neighbouring Indo-European languages. Garrick pointed out in another thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26169) the similarity between Albanian and Berber languages.

Taranis made a few noteworthy observations here, but the long time span that separate ancient Etruscan from modern Albanian would effectively allow for such phonetic changes (more vowels, distinction between between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants). Just look how French vowels have diverged from other Romance languages and from Latin. As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. Albanian is obviously a hybrid language belonging to two linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European).

Besides the linguistic aspect, it makes sense that Etruscan and Albanian be related to ancient Near Eastern languages, since both ethnic groups were migrants from Anatolia or the Levant, and both are an admixture mostly of haplogroups J2 and E1b1b. I think we could indeed associate the Pelasgians to these two haplogroups. I believe that R1a1a and R1b1b2a1 came later to Greece, Macedonia and Albania. I personally find it most likely that R1a1a was brought by the Mycenaeans, and R1b1b2a1 by the Sea Peoples, Dorians, Celts and Romans.

On the other hand I don't think the Illyrians have anything to do with either the Etruscans or the Albanians.


Yes indeed, also find Thoukidides who say Ancient Athens were Thyrrenians (Etruscans before turn to Greek)
also why modern Greek follow the Ionic dialect (5 vowel + r, r is a vowel to ancient Greek) while ancient Greek had 11 vowel system-sounds.

and where else in minor asia lived the pelasgians

about Pelasgian Language you can find information in Thomopoulos book and Joseph Jehunda book

Aristidi Kollia made an attempt but has many mistakes some on purpose, and many IE are considered Pelasgian

the case of R1b in Mycenae as you mention Macciamo I can not certify or amplify,
but the case of an ancient R1a also existed in south Balkans could be true,

in Genesis we read that Iones (Ιαυαν sons) dwell among Tharseis (Thracians)

zanipolo
20-04-11, 11:20
I have moved the thread to the Linguistics subforum.

I personally believe that it is a mistake to classify the Albanian language as purely Indo-European. I think it is originally a language of Old Europe (Neolithic South-East Europe, settled by Near Eastern farmers, so in all likelihood an Afro-Asiatic language), which was later influenced by the overbearing presence of neighbouring Indo-European languages. Garrick pointed out in another thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26169) the similarity between Albanian and Berber languages.

Taranis made a few noteworthy observations here, but the long time span that separate ancient Etruscan from modern Albanian would effectively allow for such phonetic changes (more vowels, distinction between between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants). Just look how French vowels have diverged from other Romance languages and from Latin. As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. Albanian is obviously a hybrid language belonging to two linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European).

Besides the linguistic aspect, it makes sense that Etruscan and Albanian be related to ancient Near Eastern languages, since both ethnic groups were migrants from Anatolia or the Levant, and both are an admixture mostly of haplogroups J2 and E1b1b. I think we could indeed associate the Pelasgians to these two haplogroups. I believe that R1a1a and R1b1b2a1 came later to Greece, Macedonia and Albania. I personally find it most likely that R1a1a was brought by the Mycenaeans, and R1b1b2a1 by the Sea Peoples, Dorians, Celts and Romans.

On the other hand I don't think the Illyrians have anything to do with either the Etruscans or the Albanians.

I agree with both of your posts, but I feel albanians who where not illyrian , but took an illyrian tribal name after there immigration , are from Dacia lands prior to romanization.
In regards to Venetic , I used to feel that it was a part of Illyrian because the North Picene has similar linguistic style, but upon delving further into friulian and Ladin languages, I feel that the venetic language ( excluding the eastern part of the julian alps) has a Raetian association, this would account for over time retaining, its franco ( occitan) and catalan style.
As we know the Reatian lands ( culture) streched from switzerland to istria.
Then again , Venice's relation with the Grisons ( as there lands touched each other) could have something to do with it.

Etruscan seems again an anatolia type of language as well as its admixture mostly of haplogroups J2 and E1b1b. Then again, the venetic plains has J2 while the alpine part is T.

Taranis
20-04-11, 13:46
Taranis made a few noteworthy observations here, but the long time span that separate ancient Etruscan from modern Albanian would effectively allow for such phonetic changes (more vowels, distinction between between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants). Just look how French vowels have diverged from other Romance languages and from Latin. As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. Albanian is obviously a hybrid language belonging to two linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European).

Maciamo, you definitely have a point that the long time frame would allow for such changes to occur (if you look at how vastly dissimilar for instance Irish and Welsh are from classical Celtic, it's obviously easy to accept that), and you also brought up some excellent examples of languages being strongly influenced by other languages, but what I am critically missing here is the sound correspondence.

To demonstrate what I mean by such sound correspondences, I'll take a few examples from languages that I personally am a tad more used to, namely mostly Celtic and Germanic languages.

In the Germanic languages, initial "K" is changed to "H". As an example, we have Breton "Kon", Latin "Canis", Classical Greek "Kynon", but German "Hund" and English "Hound". Or Welsh "Cant", Latin "Centum", Greek "Hekaton", but German "Hundert" and English "Hundred".

In Brythonic, the initial S of Common Celtic is turned into H, whereas in Gaulish and Goidelic, it is retained. Because of this, the word for 'old' is "Senos" in Gaulish, "Sen" in Old Irish, "Sean" in modern Irish, but "Hen" in both Breton and Welsh. Or Gaulish "Isarnos" (iron), Welsh "Haern", Breton "Houarn".

In Goidelic, the initial W of Common Celtic is changed to F. Because of this, the words 'anger' and 'alder' are 'Vergos' and 'Vernos' in Gaulish, but 'Ferg' and 'Fern' in Old Irish. In contrast to this, the Brythonic languages change initial W to "Gw". Because of this, the Breton and Welsh word for 'alder' is "Gwern".

So... basically, if one wants to argue that Etruscan somehow yields Albanian words, one has to demonstrate how these considerable changes are conditioned. If there's no way to explain how such changes, on a regular basis, happen, it's very likely that these apparently similar words are just coincidentially similar. In the list, there are multiple examples how a sound correspondence clearly is not the case:

- Etruscan θ variably yields Albanian d, dh or θ.

- Etruscan Z variably yields Albanian š, z

- Etruscan Š variably yields Albanian s, š, z

- Etruscan χ variably yields Albanian g, n/m, r

It should also be noted that the letters are used actually differently, so that sounds do not even actually equate each other:

- In Etruscan, θ represents an aspirated voiceless alveolar plosive, wheras with the Albanian it's an voiceless dental fricative (actually "θ" is the IPA expression for it, in the actual Albanian variant of the Latin alphabet, it's written as "th").

- χ in Etruscan is an aspirated voiceless velar plosive, wheras in Albanian "x" (as in, the Albanian variant of the Latin alphabet, not IPA) represents a voiced alveolar affricate.

One issue I must ask though: where do you see Albanian as a hybrid between IE and Afro-Asiatic? I don't see anything Afro-Asiatic about Albanian, honestly.


It would be interesting to compare Albanian and Etruscan with Tartessian/Turdetanian, Iberian, and perhaps even Basque language. South Portugal and the Mediterranean coast of Spain were heavily settled by Near-Eastern farmers, then recolonised by the Carthaginians. It would make perfect sense that these languages (all unclassified) originated in the Neolithic Near East, and could therefore be related to Etruscan and Albanian.

One interesting aspect I noticed is that the majority of the ancient (that is, those that are non-IE and non-Semitic) languages of the Near East are apparently agglutinative. Some of them are also ergative-absolute (Hurrian-Urartian), and the Sumerian language is also split-ergative. The Basque language is also agglutinative and ergative-absolute. Etruscan, interestingly, has some agglutinative elements, but has also some fusional elements (the latter being more akin to Indo-European languages). The Iberian language, from what is known, was also agglutinative. If there is an underlying relationship here between these languages, other than grammatical structure, it must be a very old one: so old that it's no longer possible to find cognates.

Regarding the Tartessian language, one issue is clear is that it does not distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants - a feature in which Tartessian is similar to Etruscan. Unlike Etruscan, Tartessian does not distinguish between aspirated and unaspirated stop consonants, or the aspiration is not conveyed in the Tartessian script. However, the universal trend is that new writing systems tend to accomodate as much as possible to the language they are made for (and as a result, tend to fall short in representing other languages) - it is hence very probable that Tartessian didn't know any aspiration. One peculiar aspect is that the Tartessian language distinguishes between two Rhotic sounds, something that the Iberian language also does (and interestingly, so does modern Basque!). Many linguists have argued that there is a relationship of some sort between Basque and Iberian - however it's not clear if this was Basque borrowing into Iberian, Iberian borrowing into Basque, or the fact that they were indeed part of the same language family. One major difference between Basque/Iberian and Tartessian is that both Basque and Iberian distinguish between voiced/unvoiced stop consonants.

One interesting aspect, a parallel between Etruscan and Tartessian, is the redunancy in the alphabet in regard for stop consonants:

Tartessian uses a different letters for K/P/T depending on which vowels are following them (eg K before A, K before E, K before I, K before O and K before U, and so on). This probably was the inspiration for the (very unique) semi-syllabary writing systems which were used later by the Iberians (and later the Celtiberians): when reading Tartessian as an outsider, it sort of made sense to just dump the vowels and treat the letters as Ka/Ke/Ki/Ko/Ku.

Etruscan does something similar, though nowhere as complete: for the K-series, the letter "C" (derived from Greek Gamma) is used before E and I, the letter "K" (derived from Kappa) is used before A, and the letter Q (derived from early Greek Qoppa, in turn derived from Phoenician Qoph - a letter that the later Greek alphabet dumped) is used before U (note that the Etruscan language lacked "O"). Curiously, Latin adopted these in a way, in particular it kept "C" with the value of "K" and made up a new latter "G" to represent the value previously held by "Gamma" in Greek. Likewise, the convention of writing "U" after "Q", and even we today use this Etruscanism: for example in words like "Question".

Regulus
20-04-11, 16:09
As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. .


I offer apologies in advance for going off-topic again.

I do agree that either Japanese derived from a proto-Korean or that both of them have a common ancestor. An interesting thought on this is which one should be considered a hybrid. Although as far as I know, Korean has retained its own rules and structure, a little over half of Korean vocabulary is of Chinese origin. This is not from any inherent similarity or common origin with Chinese, of course, but from the constant contact and exchange of words. This occured over the period of more than a thousand years of varying degrees of Chinese suzerainty over Korea.
I am not aware any estimates of how many indigenous existed in Japan at the time of the arrival of proto-Japanese so I could not speculate on how much influence the natives had in changes to the language. However, if we apply the general theory that languages change less and are most conservative at the peripheries of their extent, Japanese could conceivably be considered closer to its origins than is Korean.

iapetoc
20-04-11, 22:06
While not agreeing or disagreeing with Julia As I do not know, that facts are as i know it, was that both the venetic and etruscan people went to Italy from anatolia. While i agree that populations where small, the facts are that the ancient etruscan lands where the biggest in Italy as they also incorporated lombardia and emilia-romagna. You cannot come by sea with a few hundred men and take all this land. Granted , I would like to see what was the initial etrucans lands at around 1000BC.

As for venetic language ( and I know modern venetian) , to me I think ( my assumption ) is that in its oldest form it was similar to friuli language ( a rhaetian base) over time, the venetics on the western where firsly etruscanized, then latinized in language , while the eastern venetic land ( beyond the julian alps) where firstly celtinized , and later slavized.
While friulian is hard for me to understand listening to it being spoken, looking at the written words, a high % is similar to venet ( venetain )

And I agree with you that old Venetic ( etruscan base symbols) , as per
Mego Donasto Reitiai
I donated to Retia ( in English)
is Mi go donasto a Reitia ( modern Venet) are basically the same.

lets see the Greek in ancient how will be

MEGO DONASTO RETIAI

EGO EDOKA TΙ REITIA
ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ τηι Ρεiτιa ορ ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ REITΙΗι (ι is underline Dotiki)
virb Dino Διδ-ω ->Δινω = give in past e-dosa Εδωσα

the funny is that Reitia-ι takes a ι, υπογεγραμμενη Underlined ι, which is only in giving in Greek,
and today in modern is suspended

so Veneti follow part of Greek Grammar?

where has its roots?

I mean in English is give
in German is geben
in Italian is Dare
in Albanian is jap
in Serbian is дати Dati
in Bulgarian is дава Daba
in Catalunia is Donar

seems like clear IE to me the Greco-Roman but is it a proof or an evidence


Now about 100 men

how many where sea people?
how many R1a or R1b in Greece that is not later romano-celtic - latin speaking,
much of R1b is western brought by Romans, and parts of R1a could be medieval slavic or Turkish.
how many R1a in south Balkans?
yet Greeks speak IE and south slavic are connected with Baltic (although I don't agree)
how many Greeks travel with ships to establsh a colony????? (millions?)
it is estimated that many Greek colonies were established by less than 2000 men
Sinope was a small city-colony, but create Trebizond Empire
Besides Etruscans means same with troy Troia, Tyris-intha (o+y = u in Greek)
En-troy-cani ->Etroycanoi ->etrucans
means Trojer people ->tower building people, city walls people, castle people

I read a book about Delphi oracles, 14 ships estimation of about 50 population was to build Phasis in Georgia
yes only 700 people, later much more came,

how many ships had Colombus the 6th fleet? or the spanish armada?







Now about Albanians I have wrote many posts

1rst Illyria and Illyricum

for ancient Greeks Illyria is the area that later known as Illyria proprie Dicti

Pliny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder) (23–79 AD) writes that the people that formed the nucleus of the Illyrian kingdom were 'Illyrians proper' or Illyrii Proprie Dicti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Illyrii_Proprie_ Dicti).[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria#cite_note-16) They were the Taulantii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulantii), the Pleraei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleraei), the Endirudini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endirudini), Sasaei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaei), Grabaei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabaei) and the Labeatae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeatae). These later joined to form the Docleatae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docleatae).

The roman province of Illyricum

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/69/Province_of_Illyricum.png

As you see it is not the same

about language connections of ancient Illyria

to understand that we must understand the Pelasgians,
Pelasgians were Around Aegean and cyprus, probably Anatolian or Levant,

Cadmus was the first to settle in Continent that was dwell that times by thracians (Greek Theba),

Cadmus son Illyros invade Illyria who was habited by Celts,

Pelasgian culture includes Cyclades, Minoan, Troy, pre Greek, Thyrrenian, Ionic-Athenean, Phillistines, Cyprus cultures,

Pelasgian system was city states, and mainly were Naval people,

there are 3 names of pre-Greeks the Lellekes the Pelasgians and the Driopes
the last the Driopes are considered IE

Pelasgian Gods in Greek Thogony

Pontus (sea and bottom) later remained as PUdna Πυδνα in Makedonian and Πυθμεν in Greek
while the IE word is Βυθος Buthos - Bottom
Iapetos the name of Japeth,
Erebos the dark (semitic Erebu, Illyrian Erevet)
Kawir Καβηροι
Hekate Εκατη from Egyptian Ka = soul
Hera from Pelasgian godess Eorda or Arda
Athena from Egyptian Neith
Oceanus Ωκεανος
Carnios Kreios Καρνιος Κριος
Gyges Γυγης Lydian-Anatolian name
Thaleia Θαλεια

etc

Pelasgian toponyms

Parnassus -> from pharm and -issa
Pharm in the Pelasgian ment house Parn
Parnassus means fortified houses

Thera island (warm island) simmilar Thyrrenian or comes from trojer troyan->tower city



other Pelasgian words

neo ναιω = Ι flow, ναιας a ship (remember Noah)
the IE word in Greek is pleo Πλεω flow->plow-> pleo

La the stone
Lavrys -Λαβρυς the hammer to stimulate stones
Labirynth Λαβιρυνθος the stone mine
Etruscan LA-pis

Ζεω and Ζω
Ζεω means I am warm
Zω means I am warm as an alive should be

κωνος the pyramid but also the city
Ko+no+sso = Knossos (minoan city)
Mu +ko+no = Mycenae (1 mu = Homo, the city of Humans?? 2 Mu = ομου together the city where all lived together?) or there was a tribe named My (My-cenae , My-ssian, My-Nians or Mi-noans, Moe-ssians, Ma-kedonians,)

Greek Γοης -Γοησσα (fem) desirable, very pretty, unresistable
Turkish -anat Guzzell Beautifull, fine
Italian Gusto

there are a lot of works that is connecting ancient Illyrian (part of Albanian) with Pelasgian and Homeric (non IE words)

for the Celtic Branch
Alb Mire jam = I am Fine
Eng merry I am (merry christmas etc)

alb mire dita
Eng good day

etc

But the case of Modern Albanian, is more complex,

Dienekes and modern linguistic proved that a major devastasion had happened the last 600 years,

modern Albanians are more Transylvanians
the tribe of Albocense
Maximus of Moessia was the first who found them.

for the record of Gennetics

The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast;

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html


the above as also the linguistic analysis of Gustav-Mayer, Kaplan Rassuli, as also the Historic events
proves that Albanians are a new nation

Historically Illyria is not found elsewhere after Roman occupation,
later at 1040 we found Arbanites from city of Arbanon (not same with albonopolis)
and state of arber of Progon moving south from Dalmatia, and state of Alba of Anju
Anju were Cumans like Hunyadi and had origin city of Alba Lullia in Romania.
the tribe of albocense from Dacia probably moved the last 600-700 years to Illyria,

The conection of modern Albanians with other is just in written words,
modern Albanian is a SATEM language
while ancient Illyrian were Centum, even the Messapic that was adopted later in Illyria,
words like Femia are later with messapic, while words like the word for tribe, for relatives is like Greek-Pelasgic Φυλη fili
the word and simmilarity in written forms of speech is from ancient Illyrian that remained in Modern Albanian language, or from latinization of Moessia at Roman occupation time

Albocense were considered Thracians,
Even today Daci/Gaete and south slavic are not yet clear who is the Thracian language,

Georgiev-Duridanov and Rusu still argue about a latin or a slavic form of ancient Thracian,
a language that have left many words also in Greek language, (if latin-Dacian,) or is the IE branch of Greek Language (if slavic origin)

julia be carefull of Albanian Nationalists, they even claim Goliath was Albanian,

Besides Gorani-Torbesi belong to south slavic population,

julia90
21-04-11, 00:09
La the stone
Lavrys -Λαβρυς the hammer to stimulate stones
Labirynth Λαβιρυνθος the stone mine
Etruscan LA-pis

Interesting: in modern tuscan dialect the word Lapis is still used it means lead pencil. in standard italian the word used is Matita

julia90
21-04-11, 00:14
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Pelasgians.jpg


Strabo dedicates a section of his Geography to the Pelasgians, relating both his own opinions and those of prior writers. Of his own opinions he says:
As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.
He defines Pelasgian Argos as being "between the outlets of the Peneus River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus and states that it took its name from Pelasgian rule. He includes also the tribes of Epirus as Pelasgians (based on the opinions of "many"). Lesbos is named Pelasgian. Caere was settled by Pelasgians from Thessaly, who called it by its former name, Agylla. Pelasgians also settled around the mouth of the Tiber River in Italy at Pyrgi and a few other settlements under a king, Maleos.



based on this some Greeks, southern Albanians (Tosk) and people from northern Latium (obviously Etruscans) were pelasgians

iapetoc
21-04-11, 00:39
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/67/Pelasgians.jpg


Strabo dedicates a section of his Geography to the Pelasgians, relating both his own opinions and those of prior writers. Of his own opinions he says:
As for the Pelasgi, almost all agree, in the first place, that some ancient tribe of that name spread throughout the whole of Greece, and particularly among the Aeolians of Thessaly.
He defines Pelasgian Argos as being "between the outlets of the Peneus River and Thermopylae as far as the mountainous country of Pindus and states that it took its name from Pelasgian rule. He includes also the tribes of Epirus as Pelasgians (based on the opinions of "many"). Lesbos is named Pelasgian. Caere was settled by Pelasgians from Thessaly, who called it by its former name, Agylla. Pelasgians also settled around the mouth of the Tiber River in Italy at Pyrgi and a few other settlements under a king, Maleos.



based on this some Greeks, southern Albanians (Tosk) and people from northern Latium (obviously Etruscans) were pelasgians


yes indeed
Pelasgians were
The Greeks Iones
The Greeks Aeoleis
The Minoans
The Cyclades culture
The ancient Illyrians (Pelasgic +Celts) (today area of albania and parts of Montenegro)
The Myssians,
The Troy people
The Etruscans and all the Thyrrenians
The Phillistines
The Cypriots (part of them, the Kittim from Κιττιον the pelasgic name of Cyprus)
The ancient Atheneans Before Kodros

the first IE speaking are the Driopes Δρυοπες in Greece, and the most known are the Myceneans after them IE is the main language of Greeks, but many words survived

the Sesklo and Dimini is a clear archaiological story that explains the coexistance of IE and Pelasgians

Pelasgian language if you Read Jehunda is a language of minor Asia-Aegean pelago (pelagos->pelasgians) which is more relative to Levant and semitic than IE

Many connect it with the remnants of Ugarit culture, although I keep me precautions to that

But I am sure that Phoenicians and Pelasgians are connected

Etruscans Are not Albanians or Illyrians,
Neither Illyrians are Etruscans

BUT ETRUSCANS AND ILLYRIANS SHARE COMMON ANCESTOR

Besides there is not Bigger prove than Lemnian stele

A relationship between Lemnian, Etruscan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language), and Raetian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raetic_language) as a Tyrsenian language family (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages) is widely accepted due to demonstrations of close connections in vocabulary and grammar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language


as an example from stele

Etruscan Avis or avils =years old
in Greek pelasgic becomes IE and becomes Εβιωσε a->e + e as end cause virb
Eviose = lived, years old
the root is the same the vi = live

šivai:aviš:sialχviš:marašm:aviš:aumai Etruscan Lemnian

Sivai avis lived 60 years marasm etc

marasm also exist in ancient and modern Greek as marasmos, μαρασμος,
means katatonia - dispair- katathlipsis depress, or no will to live, as also in plant is the stadium before death, marasmos means 1 foot before death, to much old,
As you see Etruscan are connected with Pelasgian, in fact is dialect of them,
marasm in Lemnian means dead,


An example from Arrian

Alexander full of anger shouts in Barbaric.
Δεδιωκεται τοις πελλασιν dedioketai tis pellasin = send away the old ones,

In Greek koine would be
Δεδιωχται τοις παλαιοις or
Δεδιωκεται τοις πελλαιοις Dediokete tis pellaiis

as you see the end -σιν is after pelasgian form while -οις is after Greek form as later entered in Koine,
the end -σιν -si is used in Etruscan and in Italy even today, in the giving form of nouns

the veneti
Mego donasti Retiai
would be
Mego donasti Retiasi in pelasgic syntax

how yes no 2
21-04-11, 01:31
La the stone
Lavrys -Λαβρυς the hammer to stimulate stones
Labirynth Λαβιρυνθος the stone mine
Etruscan LA-pis
Interesting: in modern tuscan dialect the word Lapis is still used it means lead pencil. in standard italian the word used is Matita

so, lapis = la+ pis = stone writing

in serbian
to write = pisati
laporac (Лапорац in cyrillic) = marl (english), marne (french), mergel(german and russian)
http://sr.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9B%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%86


Marl or marlstone is a calcium carbonate or lime-rich mud or mudstone which contains variable amounts of clays and aragonite. Marl was originally an old term loosely applied to a variety of materials, most of which occur as loose, earthy deposits consisting chiefly of an intimate mixture of clay and calcium carbonate, formed under freshwater conditions; specifically an earthy substance containing 35-65% clay and 65-35% carbonate.[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marl





While not agreeing or disagreeing with Julia As I do not know, that facts are as i know it, was that both the venetic and etruscan people went to Italy from anatolia.
easy there...
Anatolia is huge area...
and Paphlagonia from where Veneti are is in north end, while Lydia from where Etruscans are is in southwest

north has ellevated R1b and nearby island of I2a in Cappadocia
(according to Strabo, Veneti completelly moved out from there, so we cannot really expect to see people originating from Veneti there in Paphlagonia.... but we can expect related people in Cappadocia that was settled by Cimmerians who were alies of Veneti and who in early Hebrew worldview correspond to area of Gomer while Veneti correspond to area of Gomer's son Riphath)

relation to Cimmerians let us expect that Veneti had significant I2a2.....
Paphlagonia is also hole in R1a spread...which could indicate that Veneti who has displaced completely from there were R1a dominant people...
combination of R1a and I2a is today typical for Slavs, for whom Jordanes claims to be of Venetic race...Cimmerians who settled Cappadocia are in Strabo's time known as white Syrians, and manuscript of Bavarian geographer claims that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... clearly Zeruiani are same tribal name as Cappadocia's west Syrians of Strabo and as Serians of Seneca who live in Europe, Caspian highlands, south Siberia/north west China and Red sea(?) area


back to Anatolia...
north has hole in R1a, elevated R1b and nearby island of I2a in Cappadocia
south has elevated R1a and E-V13, J1 and J2
but Lydia has significant I2a and G

so, in case of Etruscans from Lydia and Veneti from Paphlagonia we speak of genetically different people....except for R1a and perhaps I2a and J2 component

so if we want to search for words common between Etruscans and ancient Veneti (not same language as modern Venetic), I would expect some of those words to be today shared by people from north Italy with regions of R1a dominant (Slavs), I2a dominant (south Slavs) and J2 dominant (Tosks and Greeks) origins..



historically, during ice age, Paphlagonia and south of anatolia were even separated by big desert...
http://www.esd.ornl.gov/projects/qen/eur%2822-.gif
http://www.thefullwiki.org/Haplogroup_I1_(Y-DNA)

G haplogroup dominant in mid area indicates arrival only after desert became fertile land... spread of I2a and J2 both north and south of desert, while other haplogroups being in one or other area. could indicate I2a and J2 being there before ice age... however J2 shows flat spread disregarding desert which may indicate arrival after desert is gone.... R1b spread was probably there before ice age as it is focused on north area and Caucasus....thus originally there was R1b in north area and I2a in west area .... than ice melted and G, and J2 settled... than E started arriving from middle east... R1a perhaps came with Scythians spreading to India, Iran and middle east or much before that e.g. from Balkan.... J1 was last wave and it happened in historic times


I2a
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

R1a
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg

R1b
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_R1b.gif

G
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gif

J2
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg

J1
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/J1-map.jpg

E
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-E1b1b.jpg

pay attention to Tuscany compared to its environment it has elevated R1a and J2 and G
similar is in Tosks in Albania who compared to Gegh Albanians have elevated J2 and R1a

while in Lydia we see clear holes in J2 and R1a... these holes are place from which future Etruscans departed...
holes were filled by G from central Anatolia, by E-V13 and by J1...J1 is not present in Tuscany thus J1 are latest arrival to region of Anatolia ...quite recent one - in historic times...

btw. I2a spread doesnot fit in story ... it is present in Lydia
In Tuscany it is as I2a1 but judging by its spread in south Europe it probably predates Etruscans there
In Tosks I2a2 seems to be recent admixture as it is not found in Arberesche in Italy...
so it might have entered Lydia after Etruscans departed... but from where?

Serdi?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fb/ThracianTribes.jpg/300px-ThracianTribes.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serdi

G is much stronger in Tuscany than in Tosks, which may indicate that south Albania was settled from Lydia by a wave that was before G merged into Lydia and thus much before times when Etruscans departured from Lydia.. thus, people from area of south Albania may be distantly related to Etruscans, but personally I doubt a level of linguistic relationship that was suggested by Albanian scientist... especially because story he gives has nothing to do with interpretation of text given by people who study Etruscan culture and language...



While i agree that populations where small, the facts are that the ancient etruscan lands where the biggest in Italy as they also incorporated lombardia and emilia-romagna. You cannot come by sea with a few hundred men and take all this land. Granted , I would like to see what was the initial etrucans lands at around 1000BC.
why not? all those people of European descent in USA didnot arrive there with airplanes... sure Etruscans movement was much before, but ships were already widely used, and not much less advanced, and distance we speak about is much smaller than crossing Atlantic...



As for venetic language ( and I know modern venetian) , to me I think ( my assumption ) is that in its oldest form it was similar to friuli language ( a rhaetian base) over time, the venetics on the western where firsly etruscanized, then latinized in language , while the eastern venetic land ( beyond the julian alps) where firstly celtinized , and later slavized.
could be...


lets see the Greek in ancient how will be

MEGO DONASTO RETIA

EGO EDOKA TΙ REITIAS
ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ τηι Ρεiτιa ορ ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ REITΙΗι (ι is underline Dotiki)
virb Dino Διδ-ω ->Δινω = give in past e-dosa Εδωσα

where has its roots?

I mean in English is give
in German is geben
in Italian is Dare
in Albanian is jap
in Serbian is дати Dati
in Bulgarian is дава Daba
in Catalunia is Donar

in Serbian
to give = dati/davati
to bring = doneti/donositi

to donate can go as either to give or to bring...

Maciamo
21-04-11, 09:16
I offer apologies in advance for going off-topic again.

I do agree that either Japanese derived from a proto-Korean or that both of them have a common ancestor. An interesting thought on this is which one should be considered a hybrid. Although as far as I know, Korean has retained its own rules and structure, a little over half of Korean vocabulary is of Chinese origin. This is not from any inherent similarity or common origin with Chinese, of course, but from the constant contact and exchange of words. This occured over the period of more than a thousand years of varying degrees of Chinese suzerainty over Korea.
I am not aware any estimates of how many indigenous existed in Japan at the time of the arrival of proto-Japanese so I could not speculate on how much influence the natives had in changes to the language. However, if we apply the general theory that languages change less and are most conservative at the peripheries of their extent, Japanese could conceivably be considered closer to its origins than is Korean.

Japanese language was actually hybridized twice. The first time was when the Yayoi people from Korea "invaded" Japan (circa 500 BCE) and brought agriculture, domestication and bronze technology to the Japanese archipelago. The native Jomon people, who were mostly coastal fishermen and gatherers, spoke dialects distantly related to modern Ainu, a language isolate. There is ample evidence (http://www.wa-pedia.com/history/origins_japanese_people.shtml) that the Yayoi people mixed with the Jomon genetically, and that the Ainu are a subgroup of the Jomon. Considering all the unique words found in Japanese, many of them vaguely resembling Ainu, it is fairly obvious that ancient Japanese was a hybrid of proto-Korean and Jomon languages.

The second hybridization came with the adoption of Chinese words along with the Chinese characters (from the 5th century CE onwards). Just like Korean, approximately half of the modern Japanese vocabulary has Chinese roots. In this sense, both are hybrid Sino-Korean languages, but Japanese has a third element from its native Jomon heritage.

Maciamo
21-04-11, 09:34
So... basically, if one wants to argue that Etruscan somehow yields Albanian words, one has to demonstrate how these considerable changes are conditioned. If there's no way to explain how such changes, on a regular basis, happen, it's very likely that these apparently similar words are just coincidentially similar. In the list, there are multiple examples how a sound correspondence clearly is not the case:

- Etruscan θ variably yields Albanian d, dh or θ.

- Etruscan Z variably yields Albanian š, z

- Etruscan Š variably yields Albanian s, š, z

- Etruscan χ variably yields Albanian g, n/m, r

It should also be noted that the letters are used actually differently, so that sounds do not even actually equate each other:

- In Etruscan, θ represents an aspirated voiceless alveolar plosive, wheras with the Albanian it's an voiceless dental fricative (actually "θ" is the IPA expression for it, in the actual Albanian variant of the Latin alphabet, it's written as "th").

- χ in Etruscan is an aspirated voiceless velar plosive, wheras in Albanian "x" (as in, the Albanian variant of the Latin alphabet, not IPA) represents a voiced alveolar affricate.

One important question is, how certain can we be of the exact pronunciation of extinct ancient languages which nobody alive today has ever heard ? The theory is nice, but what if it is mistaken ? It is based on a lot of assumptions.



One issue I must ask though: where do you see Albanian as a hybrid between IE and Afro-Asiatic? I don't see anything Afro-Asiatic about Albanian, honestly.

One interesting aspect I noticed is that the majority of the ancient (that is, those that are non-IE and non-Semitic) languages of the Near East are apparently agglutinative. Some of them are also ergative-absolute (Hurrian-Urartian), and the Sumerian language is also split-ergative. The Basque language is also agglutinative and ergative-absolute. Etruscan, interestingly, has some agglutinative elements, but has also some fusional elements (the latter being more akin to Indo-European languages). The Iberian language, from what is known, was also agglutinative. If there is an underlying relationship here between these languages, other than grammatical structure, it must be a very old one: so old that it's no longer possible to find cognates.

I admit not being an expert on Afro-Asiatic, Hurro-Urartian or Caucasian languages. Would you rather say that Basque, Iberian, Etruscan and/or Albanian are closer to Hurro-Urartian languages ? The geography fits, since Hurro-Urartian languages were spoken in Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, the region from where agriculture and domestication expanded towards (southern) Europe. The identification last year of haplogroup F and G2a among LBK skeletons points at a Caucasian origin of the Danubian spread of agriculture, but these could have been Hurro-Urartian speakers too. Basque might be a descendant of the Neolithic language spoken by these Caucasian/Anatolian farmers.

zanipolo
21-04-11, 09:37
easy there...
Anatolia is huge area...
and Paphlagonia from where Veneti are is in north end, while Lydia from where Etruscans are is in southwest

north has ellevated R1b and nearby island of I2a in Cappadocia
(according to Strabo, Veneti completelly moved out from there, so we cannot really expect to see people originating from Veneti there in Paphlagonia.... but we can expect related people in Cappadocia that was settled by Cimmerians who were alies of Veneti and who in early Hebrew worldview correspond to area of Gomer while Veneti correspond to area of Gomer's son Riphath)

relation to Cimmerians let us expect that Veneti had significant I2a2.....
Paphlagonia is also hole in R1a spread...which could indicate that Veneti who has displaced completely from there were R1a dominant people...
combination of R1a and I2a is today typical for Slavs, for whom Jordanes claims to be of Venetic race...Cimmerians who settled Cappadocia are in Strabo's time known as white Syrians, and manuscript of Bavarian geographer claims that the state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... clearly Zeruiani are same tribal name as Cappadocia's west Syrians of Strabo and as Serians of Seneca who live in Europe, Caspian highlands, south Siberia/north west China and Red sea(?) area


back to Anatolia...
north has hole in R1a, elevated R1b and nearby island of I2a in Cappadocia
south has elevated R1a and E-V13, J1 and J2
but Lydia has significant I2a and G

so, in case of Etruscans from Lydia and Veneti from Paphlagonia we speak of genetically different people....except for R1a and perhaps I2a and J2 component

so if we want to search for words common between Etruscans and ancient Veneti (not same language as modern Venetic), I would expect some of those words to be today shared by people from north Italy with regions of R1a dominant (Slavs), I2a dominant (south Slavs) and J2 dominant (Tosks and Greeks) origins..





Are you saying that there where Slavs in Italy in 1000BC ?

In regards to the Eneti , veneti of Homer, I found no tribes by this name under the Paphlagonia tribes, all I found was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsun

A city which was named Amisus, but before that it was Enete

Since this town is much further east than Paphlagonia lands ( which are near modern day Sinope), then we can say it was pontic lands ( pontus) . This is clearly hittite lands at the time of the Trojan wars.

To conclude , these people never returned and it was stated that they crossed into thrace , and then into illyria.

The void in Haplogroup you say would be related to the amazons of the same area ( who also went to the trojan wars).

I agree 100% with you that the struscans and Veneti of anatolia are completly different people

Taranis
21-04-11, 10:11
One important question is, how certain can we be of the exact pronunciation of extinct ancient languages which nobody alive today has ever heard ? The theory is nice, but what if it is mistaken ? It is based on a lot of assumptions.

Well, regarding reconstructing the pronounciation of ancient languages, we obviously just do not know for certain, but what can give us reasonably reliable clues about pronounciation is how names were written in other writing systems (for example, Etruscan names written in Latin or Greek alphabets). For example, the ancient Greek language knew aspirated stop consonants too, and the Latinization of Greek names and words conveys that (Chaos, Philosophy, Thalassa).

Having said that, as evident in Greek, the shift from an aspirated voiceless alveolar plosive towards a voiceless dental fricative isn't a problem. What I find far more problematic is the lack of sound correspondence (it's essentially the same criticism I have with the identification of Tartessian as a Celtic language - other than the fact that the iventory of the Tartessian alphabet is utterly un-Celtic/un-Indo-European). If it's impossible to demonstrate how these changes are conditioned, with all likelihood the apparent cognates are just randomly similar.

And mind you, this isn't a trivial affair. The concept of sound laws has been a fundamental concept in linguistics for over 130 years. You cannot just overthrow it suddenly to prove a certain language is related to another language.


I admit not being an expert on Afro-Asiatic, Hurro-Urartian or Caucasian languages. Would you rather say that Basque, Iberian, Etruscan and/or Albanian are closer to Hurro-Urartian languages ? The geography fits, since Hurro-Urartian languages were spoken in Anatolia and northern Mesopotamia, the region from where agriculture and domestication expanded towards (southern) Europe. The identification last year of haplogroup F and G2a among LBK skeletons points at a Caucasian origin of the Danubian spread of agriculture, but these could have been Hurro-Urartian speakers too. Basque might be a descendant of the Neolithic language spoken by these Caucasian/Anatolian farmers.

Well, given how these languages has little in common other than general grammatical structure (at least, to my knowledge), it's a bit problematic to suggest that. On the flip side, the similarities are very suggestive. This brings one to the question of how much time it does take for languages who were originally part of the same language family are no longer recognizable as such? Given how it's still recognizable with Afro-Asiatic (the oldest would be Old Egyptian and Akkadian from early and mid 3rd millennium BC, respectively) and Indo-European (the oldest would be Hittite from mid-1st millennium BC - with Sanskrit and Mycenean Greek only a few centuries younger), the time spans we talk about must be even greater.

Another critical problem (which really makes comparison highly problematic) is lack of contemporarity: Basque is essentially a modern language, and Aquitanian (it's ancestor language in Antiquity) is basically known only from onomastic evidence. Etruscan, Iberian and Urartian are languages of the iron age, Hurrian is a language of the bronze age, Sumerian is the oldest attested language in the world. Almost none of these languages are contemporary. This also makes it very problematic comparing any of these languages with the various modern Caucasian languages (since there are some similarities in grammatical structures). The problem, like with Basque, is that the Caucasian languages are essentially modern, and we have attestation of them in Classical Antiquity, or the Bronze Age to properly compare them with those ancient languages. Maybe we would see actual cognates between say Basque and Sumerian if we had the ancestor language of Basque attested from the early 3rd millennium BC, but we obviously don't.

To get back to Etruscan, one peculiar aspect I noticed about the Etruscan writing is that it exhibits tendencies towards an Abjad (that is, a consonant alphabet like Phoenician, Hebrew or Arabic). This however isn't done on a completely regular basis (since the Etruscan alphabet clearly had AEIU), but instead seems to be only done for short vowels - with long vowels still being represented. Example would be the word "lautn" (freeman).

One major difference in grammatical structure is that Etruscan, unlike Basque or Hurrian-Urartian was an Accusative language (similar to the Indo-European and Semitic language families) and not Ergative. What is meant by that, bluntly put, is that in ergative languages, the verb refers to the object of the sentence rather than the subject, whereas in accusative languages the verb refers to the subject. Sumerian, interestingly, was a split-ergative language, having an accusative case for 1st and 2nd person, but behaving like an ergative language otherwise.

Otherwise, Etruscan has a number of borrowings from both Indo-European such as "Θewru" (Bull) (compare Latin "Taurus", Gaulish "Tarvos"), but also Semitic (most probably Phoenician), such as "Τaliθa" (girl). Tentatively, one must ask, is it possible that Etruscan was some kind of Creole language?

zanipolo
21-04-11, 12:17
@Taranis

I saw a 2008 book called "The ancient languages of Europe by Roger Woodard" , I briefly looke dat it and it seems a book you need.

BTW, I wish people would stop referring to catalan as a Iberian language, they have never been Iberian both culturally and linguistically. Itys only politically that there language is bracketed there.
Its like trying to say that gascon is french

Maciamo
21-04-11, 15:23
Well, given how these languages has little in common other than general grammatical structure (at least, to my knowledge), it's a bit problematic to suggest that. On the flip side, the similarities are very suggestive. This brings one to the question of how much time it does take for languages who were originally part of the same language family are no longer recognizable as such? Given how it's still recognizable with Afro-Asiatic (the oldest would be Old Egyptian and Akkadian from early and mid 3rd millennium BC, respectively) and Indo-European (the oldest would be Hittite from mid-1st millennium BC - with Sanskrit and Mycenean Greek only a few centuries younger), the time spans we talk about must be even greater.

Another critical problem (which really makes comparison highly problematic) is lack of contemporarity: Basque is essentially a modern language, and Aquitanian (it's ancestor language in Antiquity) is basically known only from onomastic evidence. Etruscan, Iberian and Urartian are languages of the iron age, Hurrian is a language of the bronze age, Sumerian is the oldest attested language in the world. Almost none of these languages are contemporary. This also makes it very problematic comparing any of these languages with the various modern Caucasian languages (since there are some similarities in grammatical structures). The problem, like with Basque, is that the Caucasian languages are essentially modern, and we have attestation of them in Classical Antiquity, or the Bronze Age to properly compare them with those ancient languages. Maybe we would see actual cognates between say Basque and Sumerian if we had the ancestor language of Basque attested from the early 3rd millennium BC, but we obviously don't.

If there is a common ancestor to all these languages, it goes back to the dawn of agriculture, 11,500 years ago. When one sees how much languages can evolve in "only" two thousand years, it is only natural to find only fragmentary similarities between unwritten languages completely isolated from each others for perhaps 5,000 or 6,000 years (like the ancestors of Iberian, Etruscan and Albanian must have been circa 1000 BCE). Furthermore, I expect that most "migrant languages" absorb a certain amount of vocabulary and grammatical features from the local languages in the region where the settle.



Otherwise, Etruscan has a number of borrowings from both Indo-European such as "Θewru" (Bull) (compare Latin "Taurus", Gaulish "Tarvos"), but also Semitic (most probably Phoenician), such as "Τaliθa" (girl). Tentatively, one must ask, is it possible that Etruscan was some kind of Creole language?

I am convinced that Etruscan was a hybrid/creole language. Whatever the exact origin of Etruscan people in the Near East, genetics show that they intermingled heavily with the local people of Italy (even prior to the Celtic migration across the Alps and the Roman expansion within Italy). Nowadays, DNA shows that Tuscans still have more Near Eastern ancestry than northern Italians, but they are predominantly European. As you mentioned it, Etruscan displayed both characteristics of Semitic and Indo-European languages. This corroborates what genetics already suggested. The Etruscans were surely an admixture of Semitic (high percentage of J2 with some J1 and E1b1b) and Italo-Celtic people (high frequency of R1b1b2a1).

how yes no 2
21-04-11, 20:12
Are you saying that there where Slavs in Italy in 1000BC ?

No, I do not...there are no clues about level of relation of ancient Venetic language to Slavic language, so I cannot make any claims regarding that....

in life things are never black or white... in ethnogenesis of nations we can only speak of related or partially related constitutive elements for some nations....

what I claim is that the claim of Jordanes that early Slavs were of Venetic origin has supporting arguments in YDNA....




In regards to the Eneti , veneti of Homer, I found no tribes by this name under the Paphlagonia tribes, all I found was

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samsun

A city which was named Amisus, but before that it was Enete

Since this town is much further east than Paphlagonia lands ( which are near modern day Sinope), then we can say it was pontic lands ( pontus) . This is clearly hittite lands at the time of the Trojan wars.

To conclude , these people never returned and it was stated that they crossed into thrace , and then into illyria.
exactly, that is what Strabo says as well...
they left Paphlagonia and never returned..



The void in Haplogroup you say would be related to the amazons of the same area ( who also went to the trojan wars).
actually, I cannot recall me claiming anything like that
can you find a post about it?
only texts where I mention Amazones and R1a is that Sarmatians were probably R1a dominant people as they in myth origin from Scythians (for which ancient DNA suggests R1a) and Amazones...
I also mentioned Amazones as one of Trojan war participants but didnot in any way relate them to R1a....



I agree 100% with you that the struscans and Veneti of anatolia are completly different people

it seems they had quite different genetics, and we know that they had quite different languages (one was IE and the other was not)......

zanipolo
21-04-11, 22:56
No, I do not...there are no clues about level of relation of ancient Venetic language to Slavic language, so I cannot make any claims regarding that....

in life things are never black or white... in ethnogenesis of nations we can only speak of related or partially related constitutive elements for some nations....

what I claim is that the claim of Jordanes that early Slavs were of Venetic origin has supporting arguments in YDNA....

Well, then the venetic culture is only in the adriatic area and since this culture disappeared as all scholars have said before the year of 60BC, then Jordanes was talking about a differently named culture the Venethi . This is word association by Jordanes in which I can present this "word association" as well
http://www.tribwatch.com/idun.htm








exactly, that is what Strabo says as well...
they left Paphlagonia and never returned..
The problem is that the area where the Enete where named from was no Paphlagonia, it was its neighbour to the east. There are no eneti in the tribal names of the Paphlagonia. The termonology of homer script and anyone else was either missread or misinterpreted.

The Paphlagonia where only these the Aegialus, Cromna, Cytorus, Erythini, and Sesamus.
Paphlagonia was located between Bithynia to the west and Pontus to the east.

Taranis
21-04-11, 23:13
@Taranis

I saw a 2008 book called "The ancient languages of Europe by Roger Woodard" , I briefly looke dat it and it seems a book you need.

BTW, I wish people would stop referring to catalan as a Iberian language, they have never been Iberian both culturally and linguistically. Itys only politically that there language is bracketed there.
Its like trying to say that gascon is french

By "Iberian", I am refering to the ancient non-IE language that in Antiquity was spoken in an arc stretching roughly from eastern Aragon, Catalonia and the Roussillon in the north to Murcia and central-eastern Andalusia in the south. It's actually quite ironic that the term "Iberian" became used for the entire penninsula, given how relatively restricted the Iberians were.


If there is a common ancestor to all these languages, it goes back to the dawn of agriculture, 11,500 years ago. When one sees how much languages can evolve in "only" two thousand years, it is only natural to find only fragmentary similarities between unwritten languages completely isolated from each others for perhaps 5,000 or 6,000 years (like the ancestors of Iberian, Etruscan and Albanian must have been circa 1000 BCE). Furthermore, I expect that most "migrant languages" absorb a certain amount of vocabulary and grammatical features from the local languages in the region where the settle.

I absolutely agree that if all these agglutinative languages (note I'm bracketing out Albanian here, but I will adress it further below) have a common ancestry, the dawn of agriculture would be a perfect starting date that would explain why it's no longer possible to find more commonalities. Still, at the same time, one must say, while it obviously seems plausible, for the described reasons there's (most unfortunately) practically no way to test this.

Regarding the tendency to absorb vocabulary and other features, I think the Basque-Iberian relationship might be a case of this: many linguists have pointed out similarities between the languages, but at the same time, as others have pointed out, the Basque language has been of no help for deciphering Iberian. For this reason, I find the idea that the similarities are due to Basque loans in Iberian (or vice versa) rather convincing.


I am convinced that Etruscan was a hybrid/creole language. Whatever the exact origin of Etruscan people in the Near East, genetics show that they intermingled heavily with the local people of Italy (even prior to the Celtic migration across the Alps and the Roman expansion within Italy). Nowadays, DNA shows that Tuscans still have more Near Eastern ancestry than northern Italians, but they are predominantly European. As you mentioned it, Etruscan displayed both characteristics of Semitic and Indo-European languages. This corroborates what genetics already suggested. The Etruscans were surely an admixture of Semitic (high percentage of J2 with some J1 and E1b1b) and Italo-Celtic people (high frequency of R1b1b2a1).

I agree about the mixed Near-Eastern (not exclusively Semitic - since the Semitic languages are fusional like Indo-European, and not agglutinative) and mixed Italo-Celtic influences. In my opinion, the pre-Etruscan population of Etruria must have clearly been Italo-Celtic. There is also the very tempting theory that in fact the arrival of the Etruscans triggered the Italo-Celtic split in the first place, by creating geographic separation in what previously was a language continuum - even though this is a tad too speculative in my opinion.

One question that remains is that of the Raetians. The Raetian language is by many people considered to be related with Etruscan. Where did the Raetians come from? One possibility that I heard, which I find reasonably plausible is that the Raetians constitute the remains of an (Etruscan-speaking) pre-Gaulish population in central-northern Italy, which was displaced into the Alps when the Gauls arrived in northern Italy (variously dated 4th through 6th century BC).

Regarding Albanian, in my opinion, it is underlyingly an Indo-European language, but a very unique one, and one that certainly has expirienced a lot of different influences. In so far, while I think that a non-IE influence is plausible (though the question of when would be critical here, since as far as we know, by the time of Antiquity the entire Balkans appears to be inhabited by Indo-Europeans), I would rule out a connection with Etruscan.

One interesting aspect that I would like to bring up are Albanian numerals, some which are certainly similar to numerals in other IE languages:

One - Një (Lat. unus, Greek èna)
Two - Dy (Lat. duo, Greek dúo)
Three - Tre (Lat. tres)
Four - Katër (Lat. quattuor)
Five - Pesë (Greek pente)
Six - Gjashtë (Lat. sextum)
Seven - Shtatë (Lat. septem)
Eight - Tetë (Greek októ)
Nine - Nëntë (Lat. novem, Greek ennéa)
Ten - Dhjetë (Lat. decem, Greek deka)

For comparison, these are the Etruscan numerals (as far as I could find them):

One - Θu
Two - Zal
Three - Ci
Four - Mach
Five - Huθ
Six - Sha
Seven - ?
Eight - ?
Nine - ?
Ten - Sar

zanipolo
21-04-11, 23:39
The recent theory was the the eneti where cappodocians ( originally hittites) and the ones that moved to Amisus ( as stated by homer and founded the city of enete) followed their leader pylaemenes along with the Paphlagonians to Troy, and from there into thrace, then illyria and then the adriatic.

zanipolo
21-04-11, 23:51
By "Iberian", I am refering to the ancient non-IE language that in Antiquity was spoken in an arc stretching roughly from eastern Aragon, Catalonia and the Roussillon in the north to Murcia and central-eastern Andalusia in the south. It's actually quite ironic that the term "Iberian" became used for the entire penninsula, given how relatively restricted the Iberians were.



ok, no problem

have you noticed then that the eupedia site for haplogroups has Auverge and northern italy in the 3 main groups nearly identical in numbers.
would this be an indication of migratory travels?




Regarding the tendency to absorb vocabulary and other features, I think the Basque-Iberian relationship might be a case of this: many linguists have pointed out similarities between the languages, but at the same time, as others have pointed out, the Basque language has been of no help for deciphering Iberian. For this reason, I find the idea that the similarities are due to Basque loans in Iberian (or vice versa) rather convincing.

some linguists decipher basque from gascon language and the gascon with occitan, then witn provencal of which the ligurianes copied




One question that remains is that of the Raetians. The Raetian language is by many people considered to be related with Etruscan. Where did the Raetians come from? One possibility that I heard, which I find reasonably plausible is that the Raetians constitute the remains of an (Etruscan-speaking) pre-Gaulish population in central-northern Italy, which was displaced into the Alps when the Gauls arrived in northern Italy (variously dated 4th through 6th century BC).


the raetians also comprise of many tribes, the eugenai, cenomani, friulian, ladin to name just a few.

iapetoc
22-04-11, 07:56
Otherwise, Etruscan has a number of borrowings from both Indo-European such as "Θewru" (Bull) (compare Latin "Taurus", Gaulish "Tarvos"), but also Semitic (most probably Phoenician), such as "Τaliθa" (girl). Tentatively, one must ask, is it possible that Etruscan was some kind of Creole language?

well Θewru is not imported to etruscan but it is Etruscan

The Greek-Pelasgic is Therion Θεριον
Apocalypse Mega Therion

The Greek IE word of hunter is Κυνηγος kinigos -> lead the dog -> dog boss, (cannis + go)
The Greek Pelasgic is Θηρευτης -> Hunter -> animal catcher,

Θερίον or Θεριό theri-ό last vowel tone means the animal that can kill, or can not be handlle cause its mighty or huge,
Therion could be a lion a bull an elephant an aurroch, sometimes it is used for hunting animals like fox or wolf but not correct,
Therion is the animal that can kill a human, or has hunters instict

the case that Etruscans name the Bull as Thewru can be find in Greece,
a bull or a cow, even a human can be described as therio, if it is difficult to handle,
i don't believe that is after gauls Tarvus, but origin Etruscan pelasgic word

Θεριον in English can have 3 translation
1 Beast more to the Idea of animal
2 Brutal more to idea of primitive hunting insting

that is why ancient Greek is considered difficult, but the language with the most rich vocabulary
while modern Greek are easy and poor language,

it combines 2-3 languages and has 2-3 words for every think

i wanted also to write about about alphabet,
but maybe in another post,

just that

Ancient Greek had 7 vowel marks α ε ι ο ω υ η

but 14 vowels

α ε ι η υ ο plus αι οι ει υι ου plus the aspired r and double l r is not a vowel but 'ρ Or ρρ or λλ are vowels,

modern Greek return to pelasgic-Anatolian 5 vowel system α ε ι ο ου due to Ionic dialect most popular, and Iones were Greeks that came from Pelasgians

Yes Taranis you are wright with C ανδ Γ and Q
as also the Greeks had different sounds than Phoenians in M and Σ etc

the case of Alpha -Beta from Aleph and Bet finds many Greek to opposite
I don't want to take a place cause it is early,

But Greek Alphabet is a praise to Gods and Sun in Pelasgic language

Al-fa Vi-ta Ga-ma

Αλ φα βει τα Γα μα ... means Sun shine (give us light) Go to all lands but ...

Al means sun ΗΛιος Hellios (semitic? EL?)
Vi βει λατερ βαινω means go to (latin Veni ???)


as I said Etruscan are not albanians and neither opposite

but they share a common ancestor,

the same in Greece,

i gave so many ancient and enough Homeric words

but yet the word aqua or aqwa is missing in Greek language,
on the other hand Greek mythology has titan Ωκεανος okea
aqua -> akua = okea ??? hmmm

remember that Romania is a latin speaking country, so by that can we prove Romanians were Latians or Italians?????? or Latians came from Romania !!!!!

Albanians after Kossovo war are in a mood of nationalism,

in a site blog I even read that they are the Real ancient Greeks and Greeks are turkish

history archaiology and linguistic as much as they can help us,
they speak and prove a common ancestor's culture

how yes no 2
22-04-11, 17:25
The recent theory was the the eneti where cappodocians ( originally hittites) and the ones that moved to Amisus ( as stated by homer and founded the city of enete) followed their leader pylaemenes along with the Paphlagonians to Troy, and from there into thrace, then illyria and then the adriatic.

zanipolo, there are topics of Veneti...and you can also open new ones...let's not spam here....
btw. I expect reference for what you claim above...because according to story written down by Strabo Veneti were most notable of all Paphlagonians, now you claim they were not Paphlagonians...and you also insert Illyria whereas in Strabo's story Illyria is not mentioned and Veneti moved to Thrace and than to Adriatic... regarding you thinking that Venethi and Veneti are different tribal names, I am pretty convinced that it is same tribal name...it is another question what were the circumstances that led to those people having same tribal name... was it same genetic origin or not... I think it was.. R1a + I2a2...


now, back to Etruscans

father= apa
mother =ati
wife = puia
brother = ruva

http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWGN6e5Rzf8C&lpg=PA57&dq=venetic%20vocabulary&pg=PA58#v=onepage&q=venetic%20vocabulary&f=false


fire = uerse
god(s) = aisar
monkey = arimos
king = lucumo
freedman = lautni
son = clan
daughter = sech
grandson = nefts, papals
grandfather = papa
grandmother = teta
children = husiur
parents/ancestors = ateri
dictator = purth
mirror = malena
June = aclus
I = mi
me = mini
you = un
for you = une
who/which = ipa
whoever = ipe ipa
stranger,client, slave = etera
bellow = hinth
gold = zamathi
city = spura
image = sren
year = avil
month = tiur
at first = thuni
again = etnam
now = thui
here = thui
until = epl, pul
also = etnam
writing/book = zich



Aristotle claims that Etruscans and Carthaginians are so close that they almost make one people....
http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWGN6e5Rzf8C&lpg=PA57&dq=venetic%20vocabulary&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q=venetic%20vocabulary&f=false
On Greek island of Lemnos there are inscriptions from 6th century similar to Etruscan ones both in alphabet and vocabulary...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWGN6e5Rzf8C&lpg=PA57&dq=venetic%20vocabulary&pg=PA61#v=onepage&q=venetic%20vocabulary&f=false

Lemnos is close to Lydia, Carthaginians or Phoenicans origin from southeast of Asia minor... thus languages/culture similar to Etruscan also origin from south of Asia minor...

Let'see who lived on Lemnos

For ancient Greeks, the island was sacred to Hephaestus, god of metallurgy, who— as he tells himself in Iliad I.590ff— fell on Lemnos when his father Zeus hurled him headlong out of Olympus. There, he was cared for by the Sinties, according to Iliad or by Thetis (Apollodorus, Bibliotheke I:3.5), and there with a Thracian nymph Cabiro (a daughter of Proteus) he fathered a tribe called the Kaberoi. Sacred initiatory rites dedicated to them were performed in the island.
Hephaestus' forge, which was located on Lemnos, as well as the name Aethaleia, sometimes applied to it, points to its volcanic character. It is said that fire occasionally blazed forth from Mosychlos, one of its mountains. The ancient geographer Pausanias relates that a small island called Chryse, off the Lemnian coast, was swallowed up by the sea. All volcanic action is now extinct.
The earliest inhabitants are said to have been a Thracian tribe, whom the Greeks called Sintians, "robbers". The name Lemnos is said by Hecataeus to have been applied in the form of a title to Cybele among the Thracians. The worship of Cybele was characteristic of Thrace, where it had spread from Asia Minor at a very early period. Hypsipyle and Myrina (the name of one of the chief towns) are Amazon names, which are always connected with Asiatic Cybele-worship.
According to the epitome of the Bibliotheke traditionally attributed to Apollodorus (Epitome I:9), when Dionysus found Ariadne abandoned on Naxos, he brought her to Lemnos and there fathered Thoas, Staphylus, Oenopion, and Peparethus. Pliny the Elder in his Natural History (xxxvi. 13) speaks of a remarkable labyrinth in Lemnos, which has not been identified in modern times.
According to a Hellenic legend, the women were all deserted by their husbands for Thracian women, and in revenge they murdered every man on the island. From this barbarous act, the expression Lemnian deeds became proverbial among the Hellenes. according to Apollonius of Rhodes' Argonautica the Argonauts landing soon after found only women in the island, ruled by Hypsipyle, daughter of the old king Thoas. From the Argonauts and the Lemnian women were descended the race called Minyans, whose king Euneus, son of Jason and Hypsipyle, sent wine and provisions to the Achaeans at Troy. According to later Greek historians, the Minyans were expelled by a Pelasgian tribe who came from Attica.
The historical element underlying these traditions is probably that the original Thracian people were gradually brought into communication with the Greeks as navigation began to unite the scattered islands of the Aegean; the Thracian inhabitants were technologically primitive in comparison with the Greek mariners.
In another legend, Philoctetes was left on Lemnos by the Greeks on their way to Troy; and there he suffered ten years' agony from his wounded foot, until Odysseus and Neoptolemus induced him to accompany them to Troy. According to Sophocles, he lived beside Mount Hermaeus, which Aeschylus makes one of the beacon points to flash the news of Troy's downfall home to Argos.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnos


now, if the Albanian interpretation of inscriptionfro the start of the thread is correct, that would mean that the languages are practically the same... thus, most of the words bellow should exist in albanian as well.. I will add next to it serbo-croat and greek words...words are taken from google translate... so native Albanian and Greek speakers should react if they see etruscan word that has cognjate in their languages...

english - etruscan - albanian - greek - serbo-croat
father= apa = baba, ate = patéras = otac, tata
mother =ati = nënë, mëmë, burim = mi̱téra = majka, mama, mater, mati
wife = puia = grua,bashkëshorte, shoqe = gynaíka = žena, supruga
brother = ruva = vëlla, shok = adelfós = brat

fire = uerse = zjarr, pasion, fugë, ethe =pyrkagiás = vatra
god(s) = aisar = perëndi= theoí = bog/bogovi
monkey = arimos = majmun, çamarrok = maïmoú = majmun
king = lucumo = mbret, car = vasiliás = kralj, car
freeman = lautni = njeri i lirë, qytetar = eléf̱theros = slobodan
son = clan = e saj = tou = sin
daughter = sech = bijë, vajzë = kóri̱= (k)ćerka, kći
grandson = nefts, papals = nip = engonós = unuk
grandfather = papa = gjysh, stërgjysh, babagjysh = pappoús = deda
grandmother = teta = gjyshe = giagiá = baba, baka (teta = older woman, aunt)
children = husiur = fëmijëve = paidiá = deca
parents/ancestors = ateri = prindërit/paraardhësit = goneís/Oi prógonoí = roditelji/ preci, oci
dictator = purth = diktator = diktátoras = diktator
mirror = malena = pasqyrë, shembull = kathrépti̱s = ogledalo
who/which = ipa = ke, cili, kush = o opoíos, i̱ opoía = ko, koga
whoever = ipe ipa = kush = opoiosdí̱pote = kogod (however = ipak)
stranger/client/slave = etera = i huaj, i panjohuri/klient, blerës, myshteri/rob, skllav = xénos / peláti̱s /doúlos = stranac / klijent, mušterija / rob
bellow = hinth = më poshtë, pallje = parakáto̱ = ispod
gold = zamathi = ar, flori = chrysós = zlato
city = spura = qytet = póli̱ =grad
image = sren = imazh, figurë, shëmbëlltyrë = Eikóna = slika
year = avil = vit, vjet = étos = godina
month = tiur = muaj = mí̱na = mesec
again = etnam =përsëri, sërish, prapë= kai páli = opet
now = thui = tani, tash = tó̱ra = sad
here = thui = këtu = edó̱ = ovde, tu, tuj
until = epl, pul = deri, gjer = méchri = do
also = etnam = gjithashtu, edhe = Epísi̱s = takodje, isto
writing/book = zich = shkrim, shënim, gramë/ libër, blok = graptó̱s/vivlío = pisanje/knjiga

to conclude, it is obvious that neither of the languages above has much to do with Etruscan... considering this, the idea that the etruscan text above has direct meaning in Albanian as proposed by some albanian scientist is not likely at all.. same text is by people studying Etruscan considered to have completely different meaning (legal contract and not story about a ghost in a cave)...

Taranis
22-04-11, 17:44
How Yes No, are you arguing that the Minoan language (ie, the as-of-now undeciphered "Eteocretan" language of Linear-A) was related with Etruscan? It's very hard to test, but this might be another possibility.

Otherwise, I very agree that Albanian has not much to do with Etruscan (I disagree with some other things you said, but I want to get that later). The main reason for me is the complete lack of sound correspondence.

how yes no 2
22-04-11, 17:52
How Yes No, are you arguing that the Minoan language (ie, the as-of-now undeciphered "Eteocretan" language of Linear-A) was related with Etruscan? It's very hard to test, but this might be another possibility.
I do not have strong argument to argue that...but it is possibility that should be taken into account...

it looks to me that there is cultural similarity...and taken into account that Etruscans origin from Lydia, they did develop in area of influence of the Minoan civilization... Minoian civilization is often considered to stretch into Lydia...another thing is that Minoians were sea oriented people living on islands, the sea orientation explains travelling by ships to far away lands as Lydians travelled by ships to Umbria to become Etruscans....... As Etruscans, Minoians spoke non-IE language...so it is likely that the Minoian language is same as Etruscan or related to it...

Taranis
22-04-11, 18:21
The problem is that for the greater part, the Linear A script remains mostly undeciphered, and the Linear B script (which was, after all, used to write the Greek language, even though it was rather unsuited for writing it!) is not of much help since to my knowledge only about a sixth of the Linear B signs are also found in Linear A, and we do not really know if they really present exactly the same value in Linear A as they do in Linear B. After all, it is a well-known phenomenon that when people adopt a writing system which was intended for a different language towards their own language, they make modifications to it to accomodate it more to their own language.

Another problem is, we know that Linear B was effectively a mix of syllabic and logographic signs (for example man and horse). The logographic signs are ... we obviously know the Greek words for man and horse (or at least can reconstruct the ancient Greek words), but since we do not know the Minoan/Eteocretan words for which such logographic signs stood, they are no use for us to decipher it.

iapetoc
22-04-11, 18:37
zanipolo, there are topics of Veneti...and you can also open new ones...let's not spam here....
btw. I expect reference for what you claim above...because according to story written down by Strabo Veneti were most notable of all Paphlagonians, now you claim they were not Paphlagonians...and you also insert Illyria whereas in Strabo's story Illyria is not mentioned and Veneti moved to Thrace and than to Adriatic... regarding you thinking that Venethi and Veneti are different tribal names, I am pretty convinced that it is same tribal name...it is another question what were the circumstances that led to those people having same tribal name... was it same genetic origin or not... I think it was.. R1a + I2a2...


now, back to Etruscans

father= apa
mother =ati
wife = puia
brother

http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWGN6e5Rzf8C&lpg=PA57&dq=venetic%20vocabulary&pg=PA58#v=onepage&q=venetic%20vocabulary&f=false


fire = uerse
god(s) = aisar
monkey = arimos
king = lucumo
freedman = lautni
son = clan
daughter = sech
grandson = nefts, papals
grandfather = papa
grandmother = teta
children = husiur
parents/ancestors = ateri
dictator = purth
mirror = malena
June = aclus
I = mi
me = mini
you = un
for you = une
who/which = ipa
whoever = ipe ipa
stranger,client, slave = etera
bellow = hinth
gold = zamathi
city = spura
image = sren
year = avil
month = tiur
at first = thuni
again = etnam
now = thui
here = thui
until = epl, pul
also = etnam
writing/book = zich



Aristotle claims that Etruscans and Carthaginians are so close that they almost make one people....
http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWGN6e5Rzf8C&lpg=PA57&dq=venetic%20vocabulary&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q=venetic%20vocabulary&f=false
On Greek island of Lemnos there are inscriptions from 6th century similar to Etruscan ones both in alphabet and vocabulary...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWGN6e5Rzf8C&lpg=PA57&dq=venetic%20vocabulary&pg=PA61#v=onepage&q=venetic%20vocabulary&f=false

Lemnos is close to Lydia, Carthaginians or Phoenicans origin from southeast of Asia minor... thus languages/culture similar to Etruscan also origin from south of Asia minor...

Let'see who lived on Lemnos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnos


now, if the Albanian interpretation of inscriptionfro the start of the thread is correct, that would mean that the languages are practically the same... thus, most of the words bellow should exist in albanian as well.. I will add next to it serbo-croat and greek words...words are taken from google translate... so native Albanian and Greek speakers should react if they see etruscan word that has cognjate in their languages...

english - etruscan - albanian - greek - serbo-croat
father= apa = baba, ate = patéras = otac, tata
mother =ati = nënë, mëmë, burim = mi̱téra = majka, mama, mater, mati
wife = puia = grua,bashkëshorte, shoqe = gynaíka = zena, supruga
brother = ruva = vëlla, shok = adelfós = brat

fire = uerse = zjarr, pasion, fugë, ethe =pyrkagiás = vatra
god(s) = aisar = perëndi= theoí = bog/bogovi
monkey = arimos = majmun, çamarrok = maïmoú = majmun
king = lucumo = mbret, car = vasiliás = kralj, car
freeman = lautni = njeri i lirë, qytetar = eléf̱theros = slobodan
son = clan = e saj = tou = sin
daughter = sech = bijë, vajzë = kóri̱= (k)cerka, kci
grandson = nefts, papals = nip = engonós = unuk
grandfather = papa = gjysh, stërgjysh, babagjysh = pappoús = deda
grandmother = teta = gjyshe = giagiá = baba, baka (teta = older woman, aunt)
children = husiur = fëmijëve = paidiá = deca
parents/ancestors = ateri = prindërit/paraardhësit = goneís/Oi prógonoí = roditelji/ preci, oci
dictator = purth = diktator = diktátoras = diktator
mirror = malena = pasqyrë, shembull = kathrépti̱s = ogledalo
who/which = ipa = ke, cili, kush = o opoíos, i̱ opoía = ko, koga
whoever = ipe ipa = kush = opoiosdí̱pote = kogod (however = ipak)
stranger/client/slave = etera = i huaj, i panjohuri/klient, blerës, myshteri/rob, skllav = xénos / peláti̱s /doúlos = stranac / klijent, musterija / rob
bellow = hinth = më poshtë, pallje = parakáto̱ = ispod
gold = zamathi = ar, flori = chrysós = zlato
city = spura = qytet = póli̱ =grad
image = sren = imazh, figurë, shëmbëlltyrë = Eikóna = slika
year = avil = vit, vjet = étos = godina
month = tiur = muaj = mí̱na = mesec
again = etnam =përsëri, sërish, prapë= kai páli = opet
now = thui = tani, tash = tó̱ra = sad
here = thui = këtu = edó̱ = ovde, tu, tuj
until = epl, pul = deri, gjer = méchri = do
also = etnam = gjithashtu, edhe = Epísi̱s = takodje, isto
writing/book = zich = shkrim, shënim, gramë/ libër, blok = graptó̱s/vivlío = pisanje/knjiga

to conclude, it is obvious that neither of the languages above has much to do with Etruscan... considering this, the idea that the etruscan text above has direct meaning in Albanian as proposed by some albanian scientist is not likely at all.. same text is by people studying Etruscan considered to have completely different meaning (legal contract and not story about ghost in a cave)...


lets see 1 by 1
i don't know it is pronounced but i ll try

uerse fire + p = puerse ??? pur Πυρ ΙΕ or not hmmm could be IE
But Θυω thuerse? sacrifice, burn in fire Θυω Noun Θυσια BINGO
aisar gods aei? for ever, eternals νυν και αει? hmmmm could be IE
Lucumo Λυκιας no don't believe so
Lautni ελευθερος εν λεφ in free noτ εις κλωβο Bingo en + leut +end
son clan τεκνον naaa
daughter sech naaaa
grandson = nefts, papals how about nephew ανιψιος aniphs-ios Bingo grandson = nefts, papals could be IE
grandfather = papa papoys Bingo could be IE
grandmother = teta γιαγια βαβω naaaaa
children = husiur hus υιος uios Bingo
parents/ancestors = ateri pateri BINGO could be IE
dictator = purth τυρρανος p->t hmmm or naaa
mirror = malena naaaaa
June = aclus naaaaa
I = mi not to compare
me = mini not to compare
you = un not to compare
for you = une
who/which = ipa ποιος poios Bingo
whoever = ipe ipa 'οποιος opoios BINGO
stranger,client, slave = etera εταιρος ΒINGO
bellow = hinth h->ch->k κατω kato BINGO ???? hmmmm
gold = zamathi naaaa
city = spura r->l spula Πολις Polis Hmmmmm
grandfather = papa papoys Bingo
grandmother = teta γιαγια βαβω naaaaa
children = husiur hus υιος uios Bingo
parents/ancestors = ateri pateri could be IE
dictator = purth τυρρανος p->t BINGO????
mirror = malena naaaa
June = aclus naaaa
I = mi not to compare
me = mini not to compare
you = un not to compare
for you = une not to compare
who/which = ipa ποιος Poios BINGO
whoever = ipe ipa opoios BINGO
stranger,client, slave = etera etairos εταιρος BINGO
bellow = hinth h->ch -> κατω -> κατο BINGO ???
gold = zamathi naaaa
city = spura r->l Πολις polis Bingo ??????
image = sren naaaa
year = avil waht about sivai vi = live εβιωσε eviose BINGO
month = tiur naaaa
at first = thuni naaaa
again = etnam et+nam GR εξ +ανα -> Ξανα root is ανα ana nem BINGO
now = thui naaaaa
here = thui thui th as in they? or as in thalassa Greek εδω edo could be IE like ovde ?????
until = epl, pul I think there is a Homeric word near aprion But not sure ?????
also = etnam naaaaa
writing/book = zich well ancient pelasgian virb λαξευω la+xeph Z phoenician is Ξ in Greek so Zinch -> Xeph in Pelasgic
λαξευω means i write in stone lazich BINGO

as you see there are many bingo
enough to prove if you add the rest in my previous posts,

Carthageneians or Carcheidonians (shark people, or First people) were Phoenicians or simmilar,
Etruscans are also considered more Phoenicians than IE
Pelasgians are considered the non IE Greeks that create civilization next to Thracians and among the Thracians
Pelasgians are connected with Phillistines and Phoenicians,
I am not talking about modern Albanian language, but for ancient Illyrian,
modern Albanian is Satem, and very mixed,
but ancient Illyrian was centum, and many works connect ancient Illyrian with Pelasgic,
If a good literature man could connect remnants of ancient Illyrian with etruscan in some phrases is not a prove,



the way that Julia put it truscans = Albanians is wrong
same way Ligurians = Armani and Lombardians = Romanians



Pelasgians should Be J2 people, J2 can be found everywhere where Greeks make colonies, also where phoenicians made colonies also in Central Italy,

In Homer we read that Greeks and Troyans could communicate with out translators,
also Achilleas speak to king Priamos with out translator
also Odysseas in a question he mention that Ithaka has need of Mycenae, that is why he ally with them,
both above prove that Pelasgians at Mycenae times spoke 2 languages IE and Pelasgian
That Myrmidons and Troyans spoke same language,
I don't know who was IE or who was pelasgian
but the maps of J2 suits exactly,

Remember that Nestor's cup is written in Pelasgian letters

from right to left

4781


I know that modern Albanians are not Etruscans,
and I know that many Albanians work hard to make Propaganda,
but the case of Pelasgians as ancestor nation culture and language of many is true,
even bible says so,
and is not only eteocretans, but eteocretans kept pure and less IE or Arabian than all others

my 2 problems is the Iapodes and The Thracians,
If Iapodes were E-V13 or J2
or Thracians were I2a2 the whole Puzzle will be solved

zanipolo
22-04-11, 22:08
I always read that Etruscans was the mother of the Raetia language, but
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_languages
indicates this to be wrong. Wrong in the sense that if these languages are linked , then trade or tribal relationship must be the answer for the links with the tyrol and bavarian areas

If the link above is correct, then Raetian was responsible for the migration of this "etruscan" language to istrian border and to the middle Switzerland.

- In the link provided , if you go down the page and enter the myres link, there is more info


BTW - off topic, but is there are setting to adjust the time out of being logged out. I have to relog here every 2 minutes and this causes issues with text written

Taranis
22-04-11, 23:09
Actually, I'm a tad surprised that they have the Raetians extend that far north on the map, because from what is known, southern Bavaria was definitely a Celtic area (Vindelicia). But, the confusion is near-perfect:

- Administratively, the Romans lumped Raetia and Vindelicia together as a single province.

- The "Raetian" tribes were a very heterogenous group, which variably also included apparently Celtic or Venetic tribes in addition to what appear to be the "real" Raeti.

- On the other hand, the language used in the Raetian inscriptions (as opposed to Lepontic, Noric or Venetic) definitely was a relative of Etruscan.

how yes no 2
22-04-11, 23:12
BTW - off topic, but is there are setting to adjust the time out of being logged out. I have to relog here every 2 minutes and this causes issues with text written
try using "remember me" checkbox when you log in...



enough to prove if you add the rest in my previous posts,
Carthageneians or Carcheidonians (shark people, or First people) were Phoenicians or simmilar,
Etruscans are also considered more Phoenicians than IE
Pelasgians are considered the non IE Greeks that create civilization next to Thracians and among the Thracians
Pelasgians are connected with Phillistines and Phoenicians,
I am not talking about modern Albanian language, but for ancient Illyrian,
modern Albanian is Satem, and very mixed,
but ancient Illyrian was centum, and many works connect ancient Illyrian with Pelasgic,
If a good literature man could connect remnants of ancient Illyrian with etruscan in some phrases is not a prove,


iapetoc, if Greek has most cognjates with Etruscan good reason for that could be that Etruscans origin from Minoans...
though Minoans were considered related to Pelasgians...



[B]Pelasgians should Be J2 people, J2 can be found everywhere where Greeks make colonies, also where phoenicians made colonies also in Central Italy,


J2 is good candidate, but..
R1a correlates pretty well too... look how well it matches Etruscans...

both J2 and R1a show clear holes in spread in Lydia and islands in Umbria... fitting exactly to supposed movement of Etruscans...
but J2 hotspot in Italy is south of Etruscans... it maps to italics or Osco-Umbrians according to maps bellow...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Iron_Age_Italy.svg/350px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png

R1a is also widespread on Crete, Rethymnon has 22.7% of R1a ..Lashiti plateau is highland...thus place where previous inhabitants would move from low lands upon arrival of invaders...Lasithi plateau has 19,5% of R1a while Lashiti province around it has 4,3%... J2 would on Crete would be Mycenean invaders...

thus, R1a is possible legacy of Minoians and Pelasgues... and, probably is dominant in Etruscans followed by J2 and G...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ro2ijOk8JWc/SC8zx6avGkI/AAAAAAAAADQ/7hL-UB7IwTQ/s1600/data.jpg
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

zanipolo
23-04-11, 02:26
try using "remember me" checkbox when you log in...


iapetoc, if Greek has most cognjates with Etruscan good reason for that could be that Etruscans origin from Minoans...
though Minoans were considered related to Pelasgians...



J2 is good candidate, but..
R1a correlates pretty well too... look how well it matches Etruscans...

both J2 and R1a show clear holes in spread in Lydia and islands in Umbria... fitting exactly to supposed movement of Etruscans...
but J2 hotspot in Italy is south of Etruscans... it maps to italics or Osco-Umbrians according to maps bellow...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4a/Iron_Age_Italy.svg/350px-Iron_Age_Italy.svg.png

R1a is also widespread on Crete, Rethymnon has 22.7% of R1a ..Lashiti plateau is highland...thus place where previous inhabitants would move from low lands upon arrival of invaders...Lasithi plateau has 19,5% of R1a while Lashiti province around it has 4,3%... J2 would on Crete would be Mycenean invaders...

thus, R1a is possible legacy of Minoians and Pelasgues... and, probably is dominant in Etruscans followed by J2 and G...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_ro2ijOk8JWc/SC8zx6avGkI/AAAAAAAAADQ/7hL-UB7IwTQ/s1600/data.jpg
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html


I do not understand why you place so many maps without references, but this link
http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html

clearly shows that the cretans have R1b and J2 from Northeast Italy.
This can only come about during the 400Year venetian rule, where they colonised the island with 55000 venetians ( this is 50% of the island populations at the time.) . There was also a period where the Venetians needed more farmers and went to the Morea ( pelopenese ) . The took to crete Illyric/albanian people in the morea called the MANI ( they still exist in greece).

I agree somewhat that R1a might be minoan, but IIRC history, crete was taken over by the sea-people , who some say are the myceneans.

As for your map of Italy, the need is to check on the north Picene who some say are illyians while others claim are the sea-peoples ( myceneanes) who also landed in istria to create the Castellieri culture - ( I doubt this) . A check on the haplogroups for these areas of North picene and Istria seems similar to crete

iapetoc
23-04-11, 04:16
now about R1a or R1b

I believe that Driopes could be R1a and myceneans ??? R1b or R1a??

That is the IE branch of Greeks
but before that

1. there was a I-Ydna in Greece mainland
2 J2 arrived by naval (Pelasgians)
3 G2a from east
4 R1a from north (Thracians?)
5 R1b from Hettit? (myceneans?)
6 E-V13 came from Cyprus

the fact is that Greece combines 2 ancinet nations
the Pelasgic and one IE
the IE for me could be R1a more possible than R1b

The ancient Greek is more Germanic and Slavic lingua rooted than Celtic and gaulish

but Homer have words that we can found today in cultures far away from Greece in R1b cultures

that was always my problem,
from where the Greeks took IE language, from Germano-Slavic NORTH
or from Hettit EAST
and although i am G2a could they be the first IE speakers in Greece?
myceneans as example could they be G2a3

for me it is clear that first who dwell were I2
second was the J2 mainly in inslands
3rd came IE most in mainland
4 rth came the E-V13 at copper times, Bronze age from cyprus

HOW YES NO

I connect Pelasgians with J2 mostly for it is domininant or was in areas were Pelasgians settled,
Crete, Pontus, Myssia, Troy, Palaistine, Magna Grecia, south Illyria etc.

E-V13 could be the other solution, but from the sources I read and I use doesn't fit so well
No Not R1a
R1a could be the IE Greeks


now about characteristic of Pelasgians

4782


http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Akrotiri-boxingchildren.jpghttp://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b3/Akrotiri-boxingchildren.jpg

Funny but BOXING WITH GLOVES WAS INVENTED 000 YEARS BEFORE


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/ff/Akrotiri-fisherman.jpg


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Kretischer_Meister_001.jpg




Typical Pelasgian characteristics we still find in many Greeks

1 is curly hairs with flat not rounded hair
2 is Big Eyes like cow's eye mostly dark brown almost black but not black-blue
3 is Nose that starts from up the eyes and not under eyes axon and is thin not thick
4 is the colour of skin and hair,

in winter and when not expossed in Sun is white skin and very dark brown almost black hair,
but if summer or much expose to sunlight skin becames very dark-Bronze and hair turn to dark brown even light brown sometimes
probably melamine absorve is high in genotype
the big differences with other Greeks the IE greeks is 2
1 is the nose, the mainland and IE Greeks have curved nose also thin
thick nose from all by observations in statues, drawings etc seems is not Greek either IE or pelasgic
2 hairs are not that curly and flat but mostly straight and little more rounded hair

Hal Fao
23-04-11, 09:16
I've found this interesting address: www.etruscan-translation.com

iapetoc
23-04-11, 10:38
I've found this interesting address: www.etruscan-translation.com


Well finally i see a site which is not that nationalistic and more Realistic for Albanian language,

I keep my precautions about Ring translation,

I am dissapointed that lucks of many Greek Pelasgian word roots, central of Pelasgian culture,
and mostly connect it only with Albanian, probably the writer must cooperate with Greeks sometime
I will gladly help if i can

I am glad cause such efforts even with few mistakes can be better and help us all,

Hal Fao
23-04-11, 14:10
Even I've found another site for the Ring of Ezero: http://thracian-translation.blogspot.com

Taranis
23-04-11, 14:12
I've found this interesting address: www.etruscan-translation.com

Sorry, but that does totally not hold up, because it woefully ignores any linguistic methodology. I also find the title on that website disturbingly pumpous and just... wrong:

"Welcome to the real Etruscan - the mother of the European languages."

Otherwise, how yes now, this is a linguistics thread, not a genetics thread. ;)

To get back to topic, I decided to give some examples of Etruscan grammar to visualize how fundamentally different things are from Indo-European languages (examplified by the word "son"):

Etruscan:
Clan (nominative singular - technically also accusative)
Clan-ashi (dative singular)
Clen-ar (nominative plural)
Clen-ar-ashi (dative plural)

Latin:

Filius (nominative singular)
Filio (dative singular)
Filii (nominative plural)
Filiis (dative plural)

Gaulish:

Mapos (nominative singular)
Mapui (dative singular)
Mapoi (nominative plural)
Mapobo (dative plural)

German:
(note that compared to ancient IE languages like Gaulish or Latin, German has a rather boiled-down declension system. Still, it is a better example than English (which has reduced this even further), in particular because German still exhibits rather complex declension of articles:

Der Sohn (nominative singular)
Dem Sohn (dative singular)
Die Söhne (nominative plural)
Den Söhnen (dative plural)

to pick a living agglutinative language, look at this Etruscan/Japanese for comparison:

Etruscan:
Mi ("I")
Mi-ni ("Mine")

Japanese:
Watashi ("I")
Watashi-no ("Mine")

(I'm not arguing that Japanese and Etruscan are related, but they are similar in so far as that they are both accusative-agglutinative languages).

Oh, and one last word on Albanian, similar to the other IE languages I gave above (well, similar to older ones like Latin or Gaulish), Albanian exhibits a very "normal" declension system.

Taranis
24-04-11, 23:25
@iapetoc:

Isn't it far more plausible that an Italic loan yielded Etruscan "Thewru", rather than Greek "Therion"?

I mean, cognates of this word are attested in many branches of Indo-European, all with the same meaning of "bull":

Latin "Taurus"
Oscan - "Taurom"
Greek "Tauros"
Gaulish "Tarvos"
Lithuanian "Tauras"
Lusitanian "Taurom"

I mean, I agree that the similarity with the aspiration in Greek definitely exists, but still. I don't quite see how "Therion" would yield "Thewru". That doesn't explain where the "W" comes from. It's more likely that a "U" would yield "W".

I mean, I agree that the base word probably wasn't Gaulish (or generally Celtic - since the Gauls arrived in Italy centuries after the Etruscans), since the -ur- to -ru- change is something found in all Celtic languages. But I think that an Italic or otherwise IE etymology (notice how the Lusitanian and Lithuanian words aren't all that different!) is viable, possibly via some intermediate stage of "Tavru-" or "Tawru-". Also, the Etruscans were known to aspirate other loanwords.

Regulus
25-04-11, 02:28
Japanese language was actually hybridized twice. The first time was when the Yayoi people from Korea "invaded" Japan (circa 500 BCE) and brought agriculture, domestication and bronze technology to the Japanese archipelago. The native Jomon people, who were mostly coastal fishermen and gatherers, spoke dialects distantly related to modern Ainu, a language isolate. There is ample evidence (http://www.wa-pedia.com/history/origins_japanese_people.shtml) that the Yayoi people mixed with the Jomon genetically, and that the Ainu are a subgroup of the Jomon. Considering all the unique words found in Japanese, many of them vaguely resembling Ainu, it is fairly obvious that ancient Japanese was a hybrid of proto-Korean and Jomon languages.

The second hybridization came with the adoption of Chinese words along with the Chinese characters (from the 5th century CE onwards). Just like Korean, approximately half of the modern Japanese vocabulary has Chinese roots. In this sense, both are hybrid Sino-Korean languages, but Japanese has a third element from its native Jomon heritage.

Ok, I was not aware of Japanese going through two periods of hybridization. Thank you.

iapetoc
25-04-11, 06:24
@iapetoc:

Isn't it far more plausible that an Italic loan yielded Etruscan "Thewru", rather than Greek "Therion"?

I mean, cognates of this word are attested in many branches of Indo-European, all with the same meaning of "bull":

Latin "Taurus"
Oscan - "Taurom"
Greek "Tauros"
Gaulish "Tarvos"
Lithuanian "Tauras"
Lusitanian "Taurom"

I mean, I agree that the similarity with the aspiration in Greek definitely exists, but still. I don't quite see how "Therion" would yield "Thewru". That doesn't explain where the "W" comes from. It's more likely that a "U" would yield "W".

I mean, I agree that the base word probably wasn't Gaulish (or generally Celtic - since the Gauls arrived in Italy centuries after the Etruscans), since the -ur- to -ru- change is something found in all Celtic languages. But I think that an Italic or otherwise IE etymology (notice how the Lusitanian and Lithuanian words aren't all that different!) is viable, possibly via some intermediate stage of "Tavru-" or "Tawru-". Also, the Etruscans were known to aspirate other loanwords.


I don't know,
But Tayros Tauros Torro etc could be before Greeks, it is wide spread in Mediterrenean.
But Θηρα Θηριον is another word,
A Tauros can be a Therion, but not all Therion are tauros.
now about inspiration Th->t they are both Dental but s in end?
it could all Tavros or Tarvos, but Thewru does not have s so the vowel e instead of a sends to Therion,
yes Etruscans could use t instead of Th, or opposite,
the e not a and the end u or o instead,
it is the vowels that leads me to Therion not Th or T,
the only that could help us is the tone,
like where the mark ' is
Ta ('a)vros Theri ('i)on
so if it is Thewru ('u) sounds vowel and strong sound like Therion
if it is The ('e)wru then probably comes from Tavros

remember that same is with spain,
in far ancient Greek was Esperia, (end of the world, or sunset)
later r->n (-ria and -nia are land ending, toponyms)
by using -nia in Esp'eria becomes Isp'ania (isotones and same time long, both e are short, so a is longer than e, so use i that is shorter than e)

maybe the mark ' could help us both, it is e so surely is not ~
it could be an under βαρεια (vareia) the heavy last vowel (' is down word)
for me as I try to read it sound more isotone with Therio than with Tavros,

about IE origin of Tavros or Bull , i don't know,
maybe both are IE, but maybe one is not,
Tavros was used by Cretans (ταυροκαθαψεια)
while bull (βολινθος - βολος) by mainland Greeks,
both words Bull and Tavros are common in IE languages,
But exept Lithuania is more spread in Mediterrenean the Tavros
while central and north europe uses bull, Vik etc.

as i read i put (') in last u.
so simmilarity of Th and e and u->o drives me to Therio, perhaps you are right and maybe I have to apologise if (') is in e

u <-> o is known Greek Nikola (o)s Latin Nikola (u) s etc
Romus Ρωμος,
Julius Ιουλιος

zanipolo
25-04-11, 07:08
Oh, and one last word on Albanian, similar to the other IE languages I gave above (well, similar to older ones like Latin or Gaulish), Albanian exhibits a very "normal" declension system.

Isn't it better to not mix albanian ( a middle ages language) with the other ancient languages. I feel it would be better if we used the thraco-illyric language instead of albanian

Hal Fao
25-04-11, 07:19
"Ther" in Albanian means "cut down". I've seen an etruscan picture which showed a butcher with a knife in his hand and some meat on the table. There was an inscription below the picture "Θar kaun". In Albanian "ther kaun" means "to cut down the bull".

Hal Fao
25-04-11, 09:50
zanipolo, there are topics of Veneti...and you can also open new ones...let's not spam here....
btw. I expect reference for what you claim above...because according to story written down by Strabo Veneti were most notable of all Paphlagonians, now you claim they were not Paphlagonians...and you also insert Illyria whereas in Strabo's story Illyria is not mentioned and Veneti moved to Thrace and than to Adriatic... regarding you thinking that Venethi and Veneti are different tribal names, I am pretty convinced that it is same tribal name...it is another question what were the circumstances that led to those people having same tribal name... was it same genetic origin or not... I think it was.. R1a + I2a2...


now, back to Etruscans

father= apa
mother =ati
wife = puia
brother = ruva

http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWGN6e5Rzf8C&lpg=PA57&dq=venetic%20vocabulary&pg=PA58#v=onepage&q=venetic%20vocabulary&f=false


fire = uerse
god(s) = aisar
monkey = arimos
king = lucumo
freedman = lautni
son = clan
daughter = sech
grandson = nefts, papals
grandfather = papa
grandmother = teta
children = husiur
parents/ancestors = ateri
dictator = purth
mirror = malena
June = aclus
I = mi
me = mini
you = un
for you = une
who/which = ipa
whoever = ipe ipa
stranger,client, slave = etera
bellow = hinth
gold = zamathi
city = spura
image = sren
year = avil
month = tiur
at first = thuni
again = etnam
now = thui
here = thui
until = epl, pul
also = etnam
writing/book = zich



Aristotle claims that Etruscans and Carthaginians are so close that they almost make one people....
http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWGN6e5Rzf8C&lpg=PA57&dq=venetic%20vocabulary&pg=PA68#v=onepage&q=venetic%20vocabulary&f=false
On Greek island of Lemnos there are inscriptions from 6th century similar to Etruscan ones both in alphabet and vocabulary...
http://books.google.nl/books?id=VWGN6e5Rzf8C&lpg=PA57&dq=venetic%20vocabulary&pg=PA61#v=onepage&q=venetic%20vocabulary&f=false

Lemnos is close to Lydia, Carthaginians or Phoenicans origin from southeast of Asia minor... thus languages/culture similar to Etruscan also origin from south of Asia minor...

Let'see who lived on Lemnos

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnos


now, if the Albanian interpretation of inscriptionfro the start of the thread is correct, that would mean that the languages are practically the same... thus, most of the words bellow should exist in albanian as well.. I will add next to it serbo-croat and greek words...words are taken from google translate... so native Albanian and Greek speakers should react if they see etruscan word that has cognjate in their languages...

english - etruscan - albanian - greek - serbo-croat
father= apa = baba, ate = patéras = otac, tata
mother =ati = nënë, mëmë, burim = mi̱téra = majka, mama, mater, mati
wife = puia = grua,bashkëshorte, shoqe = gynaíka = žena, supruga
brother = ruva = vëlla, shok = adelfós = brat

fire = uerse = zjarr, pasion, fugë, ethe =pyrkagiás = vatra
god(s) = aisar = perëndi= theoí = bog/bogovi
monkey = arimos = majmun, çamarrok = maïmoú = majmun
king = lucumo = mbret, car = vasiliás = kralj, car
freeman = lautni = njeri i lirë, qytetar = eléf̱theros = slobodan
son = clan = e saj = tou = sin
daughter = sech = bijë, vajzë = kóri̱= (k)ćerka, kći
grandson = nefts, papals = nip = engonós = unuk
grandfather = papa = gjysh, stërgjysh, babagjysh = pappoús = deda
grandmother = teta = gjyshe = giagiá = baba, baka (teta = older woman, aunt)
children = husiur = fëmijëve = paidiá = deca
parents/ancestors = ateri = prindërit/paraardhësit = goneís/Oi prógonoí = roditelji/ preci, oci
dictator = purth = diktator = diktátoras = diktator
mirror = malena = pasqyrë, shembull = kathrépti̱s = ogledalo
who/which = ipa = ke, cili, kush = o opoíos, i̱ opoía = ko, koga
whoever = ipe ipa = kush = opoiosdí̱pote = kogod (however = ipak)
stranger/client/slave = etera = i huaj, i panjohuri/klient, blerës, myshteri/rob, skllav = xénos / peláti̱s /doúlos = stranac / klijent, mušterija / rob
bellow = hinth = më poshtë, pallje = parakáto̱ = ispod
gold = zamathi = ar, flori = chrysós = zlato
city = spura = qytet = póli̱ =grad
image = sren = imazh, figurë, shëmbëlltyrë = Eikóna = slika
year = avil = vit, vjet = étos = godina
month = tiur = muaj = mí̱na = mesec
again = etnam =përsëri, sërish, prapë= kai páli = opet
now = thui = tani, tash = tó̱ra = sad
here = thui = këtu = edó̱ = ovde, tu, tuj
until = epl, pul = deri, gjer = méchri = do
also = etnam = gjithashtu, edhe = Epísi̱s = takodje, isto
writing/book = zich = shkrim, shënim, gramë/ libër, blok = graptó̱s/vivlío = pisanje/knjiga

to conclude, it is obvious that neither of the languages above has much to do with Etruscan... considering this, the idea that the etruscan text above has direct meaning in Albanian as proposed by some albanian scientist is not likely at all.. same text is by people studying Etruscan considered to have completely different meaning (legal contract and not story about a ghost in a cave)...

Not to forget that the "official" Etruscan vocabolary is based on Rough Translations. It's a fact that should be considered.
On the other hand, the author of the site www.etruscan-translation.com as I see, pretends for a real translation.
Inspite of some few mistakes, his translation fits with Albanian. That's a fact that should be seriously considered too.
A few days ago iapetoc said there are many words of the text, similar with the words of Homeric language. He can help us a lot on identifying these words.

Taranis
25-04-11, 12:11
"Ther" in Albanian means "cut down". I've seen an etruscan picture which showed a butcher with a knife in his hand and some meat on the table. There was an inscription below the picture "Θar kaun". In Albanian "ther kaun" means "to cut down the bull".


Not to forget that the "official" Etruscan vocabolary is based on Rough Translations. It's a fact that should be considered.
On the other hand, the author of the site www.etruscan-translation.com as I see, pretends for a real translation.
Inspite of some few mistakes, his translation fits with Albanian. That's a fact that should be seriously considered too.
A few days ago iapetoc said there are many words of the text, similar with the words of Homeric language. He can help us a lot on identifying these words.

Sorry, nope. No. Linguistics just do not work that way. There's absolutely nothing Etruscan about the Albanian language.

For one, Albanian numerals are readily visible to be Indo-European in origin (in accordance with Albanian sound laws), whereas Etruscan numerals were clearly non-IE.

One - Një (Lat. unus, Greek èna)
Two - Dy (Lat. duo, Greek dúo)
Three - Tre (Lat. tres)
Four - Katër (Lat. quattuor)
Five - Pesë (Greek pente)
Six - Gjashtë
Seven - Shtatë (Lat. septem)
Eight - Tetë
Nine - Nëntë (Lat. novem, Greek ennéa)
Ten - Dhjetë (Lat. decem, Greek deka)

This "Real Etruscan" is nothing but a fabrication.

Furthermore, as mentioned, Etruscan doesn't distinguish between voiced/unvoiced stop consonants, whereas Albanian does. How are these conditioned? If you cannot answer that, and cannot demonstrate how, with regularity, Albanian words are yielded from Etruscan ones, your similarity is most probably just coincidential.

EDIT: Here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26431-Etruscans-Illyrians-Pelasgi-tuscans-albanians&p=370714&viewfull=1#post370714) I explained the criticality of sound laws.

zanipolo
25-04-11, 12:50
this link might be of some use

http://www.seansgallery.com/pages/h_alphabets.htm

Taranis
25-04-11, 13:00
this link might be of some use

http://www.seansgallery.com/pages/h_alphabets.htm

Fascinating site, thanks for sharing that. :grin:

I must add though, with the Iberian scripts, things are a tad more complicated. There exist several varieties of the Northeastern scripts, specifically a "simple" variant that doesn't distinguish between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, and "advanced" variants that verymuch distinguish so - but only between "G/K" and "D/T", because neither the Iberian nor the Celtiberian language had the phoneme "P" in their language.

With the Southeastern Iberian Scripts, letters are very close to the Tartessian script (which is even older, and from which the Iberians derived their writing systems), but like the northern scripts, it is a full Semi-syllabary, whereas the Tartessian script was more like a redundant alphabet (coincidentially similar to the Old Persian Cuneiform, which is also on that website).

spongetaro
25-04-11, 14:08
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCq3FGPAJTs

julia90
26-04-11, 00:10
I think Albanians pass really well as italians (they are very similar to us).
I've been observing the Albanian immigrants in Italy and many of them have convex noses, they have a mediterranean appearence, so they could be descendent of pelasgians too.

iapetoc
26-04-11, 17:37
Well I don't feel or keep bad or good feelings Julia, for anyone, especially for 'bad' manufacturers,

now about Spongetaro Video,

yes for me Ancient Illyrian was Pelasgic+Celtic language,

I said that in many of my posts.

about Hal Fao and Video about ring, there is a video from some Daci with another translation more clear by Daco-Thracian,
Polisteneas gave me this ring etc...

there also a Greek translation by a minus alphabet like Κυμη Kyme alphabet there are many, that say

Polis te neas (cities and ships .. obey this ring....)

until today there is no clear scientific explanation, Fabricated propaganda by some is not what gives clear evidences,

Ancient Greek is the most rich language,
Ζολωτας, a Huge academic once gave a speech in England for Economy studies, from 40 000 words the 36 000 were in Greek language, just to make impression or just to prove something, I don't know,

There is another video that Albanian are Homeric, there was a Video that Ancient Egyptian were Albanian,

DE FACTO all these video are true, but on the other side,
there are Homeric in Albanian language,
there are Egyptian in Albanian language,
there are Celtic in ancient Illyrian,
There are romanian/Daci in ALbanian Language,

the most clear view is not to say that i have 400 words the same, so I am Etruscan, or I have 600 IE celtic roots so I am Irish,
by comparing IE words you only prove that you are an IE,

again my answer, and something that no one seen

clan = child = oglan in Turkish

Albanians and etruscans came from the same ancient nation of Pelasgians,

want Proves ??


Herodotus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herodotus) records the legend that the Etruscans (known to the Greeks as Tyrrhenians) came from Lydia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia) in Asia Minor, modern Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey)[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins#cite_note-7) :
A larger Aegean family including Eteocretan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocretan_language) (Minoan language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minoan_language)) and Eteocypriot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocypriot) has been proposed by G.M. Facchetti, referring to some possible similarities between the Etruscan language and ancient Lemnian (an Aegean language widely thought to be related to Etruscan), and some Ancient Aegean languages: such as Minoan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_A), Eteocretan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eteocretan_language) and Philistine languages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistine_language). If these languages could be shown to be related to Etruscan and Rhaetic, they would constitute a pre-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_languages) phylum stretching from the Aegean islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aegean_islands) and Crete (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crete) across mainland Greece (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greece) and the Italian peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_peninsula) to the Alps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alps). Facchetti proposes a hypothetical linguistic family derived from Minoan in two branches. From Minoan he proposes a Proto-Tyrrhenian from which would have come the Etruscan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_language), Lemnian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnian_language) and Rhaetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhaetic_language) languages. James Mellaart (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Mellaart) has proposed that this language family is related to the pre-Indo-European Anatolian languages, based upon place name analysis.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages#cite_note-1) From another Minoan branch would have come the Eteocretan and Philistean languages.[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrsenian_languages#cite_note-2) However, this is by no means a common view; there are just as serious attempts to link Eteocretan and Eteocypriot with Semitic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semitic_languages), and mainstream scholarship takes no position.

Myres JL. A history of the Pelasgian theory. Journal of Hellenic Studies 1907 169-225 s. 16 (Pelasgians and Tyrrhenians) (http://www.archive.org/stream/journalofhelleni27sociuoft#page/214/mode/1up) Strabo: " And again, Anticleides says that they (the Pelasgians) were the first to settle the regions round about Lemnos and Imbros, and indeed that some of these sailed away to Italy with Tyrrhenus the son of Atys" (public domain translation by H.L. Jones at Lacus Curtius (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/5B*.html)



the case of ancient Illyrians being Pelasgians, is still under discuss by Greek linguistics,



Another common is the

Complex consonant clusters

Speech featured a heavy stress on the first syllable of a word, causing syncopation by weakening of the remaining vowels, which then were not represented in writing: Alcsntre for Alexandros, Rasna for Rasena.[23] This speech habit is one explanation of the Etruscan "impossible consonant clusters." The resonants, however, may have been syllabic, accounting for some of the clusters (see below under Consonants). In other cases, the scribe sometimes inserted a vowel: Greek Herakles became Hercle by syncopation and then was expanded to Herecele. Pallottino[27] regarded this variation in vowels as "instability in the quality of vowels" and accounted for the second phase (e.g. Herecele) as "vowel harmony, i.e., of the assimilation of vowels in neighboring syllables ...."

Thessalians and ancient Aeolians were known as barbaric for that,

as an example I give the word μεσημερι mesimeri which even today in some areas is mis'mer'
or the word Μουστοκουλουρο mustokuluro -> must'kul'ro

the case of ancient Illyrians being Pelasgians, is still under discuss by Greek linguistics,

many greek linguist prove that, although i have many argue with them like Kollia, the many words of Aryan and Levantine origin leads us there, to the 1 branch, and the celtic language the other,
the main problem is that modern Albanian is satem and rough, while Pelasgian languages and west semitic where mild, mostly vowel and towards centum, even ancient IE greek where rough but the Pelasgic form.

Relation with Albanian in particular has been advanced by a number of people, notably Zacharie Mayani, as well as earlier writers such as Ascoli, 1877, E. Schneider, 1889, Thomopoulos, 1912, Buonamici, 1919

the case of introducing satem accent from Thracians or from Balto slavic is open.


now remember if I want to prove that Greeks are Irish or British or Russians it is easy,
even the opposite, Linguistics is a tool for scientists as also for stupids or propaganda,


Now the ring Hal Fao watch carefully the down,
Julia watch it to to understand what is a fabricated work.

until today there is no ISBN or a clear scientific explanation cause until yesterday i know 2 today explanations,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OcCCRLwVY3E


for some Greek ultra nationalist that was a ring like Mortred and Gandalph and froddo,





one common among Etruscans and Pelasgians is the swastika,


Gennetics

Another study showed that the areas of historical Etruscan occupation share a relatively high concentration of y-haplogroup G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29) with Anatolians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia), and the people of Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus), where the haplogroup reaches its greatest presence, particularly amongst the Ossetians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetia) and Georgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28country%29). This evidence is not specific to any period or calendar date, and might reflect contiguous populations or significant migration far back in the Stone Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Age).


Another study by geneticist Alberto Piazza of the University of Turin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Turin) linked the Etruscans to Turkey. The team compared DNA sequences with those from men in modern Turkey, northern Italy, the Greek island of Lemnos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnos), the Italian islands of Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily) and Sardinia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia) and the southern Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans). They found that the genetic sequences of the Tuscan men varied significantly from those of men in surrounding regions in Italy, and that the men from Murlo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murlo) and Volterra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volterra) were the most closely related to men from Turkey. In Murlo in particular, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey

Taranis
27-04-11, 20:09
@ iapetoc: regarding the consonant clusters in Etruscan, in my opinion, there is a number of interpretations. For one, consider that the Phoenician, Hebrew and Arabic alphabets are technically all abjads, that is, consonant alphabets, where vowels are not written. It's possible to do that in Semitic languages because the words still remain readable as the stem of the word still remains recognizable. For instance, Carthage ("Qart Hadašt") was actually written as "QRT HDŠT" in the Phoenician alphabet. It's generally impossible to do that in Indo-European languages because words become unreadible if you leave out vowels. One possibility is that it was possible to do that actually in Etruscan, and that Etruscan tended to basically "incompletely abjadize" by dropping vowels in an irregular pattern. The alternative is that Etruscan only rendered long vowels, and that for the same reason, short vowels tended to be dropped.

One key feature in Etruscan that is quite unlike Indo-European AND Semitic languages is the agglutination in grammer, because both IE and Semitic languages are fusional and not agglutinative. I still wonder if there's a relationship with any of the old near-eastern languages as a result. One big difference is that Etruscan was an accusative language (similar to IE and Semitic in that respect) and not ergative. If Etruscan was indeed some kind of creole language, though, that might explain this combination of features.

iapetoc
28-04-11, 01:33
hmmmm

I notice some connection that today also exist in Minor Asia, kept by modern Turks, and many that exist in close in Greeks mostly refugees after 1923
Wiki is suggesting a lot,
I know that Greeks create Koine ( an Hybridic accepted by most) after Attic (no Hattik)
Homer is pure IE which use Pelasgic words,
Pelasgic elements are in Hesiod,
The Attic dialect has many Pelasgic non IE,
later Koine is a try to make Greek and Greco-Pelasgic more connected,

the case of G-Ydna drives me away, probably there was a population that lived south of Hettit

I found this in wiki,
but no data to compare, only the synonym Attica (athens) with Hattico
The Hattians spoke a non-Indo-European language of uncertain affiliation called Hattic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hattic_language), now believed by some scholars to be related to the Northwest Caucasian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northwest_Caucasian_languages) language group. Many Northwest Caucasian (Adygean) family names have prefixes like "Hath" or "Hatti" and especially one of the most known Adygean tribes have the name "Hattico" (in the meaning of "HattiSon") .

some marks as words or letters we find in Greece are far older than known alphabet but no one can be sure,

the case of creole language is certain,

but with whom and by who?

the case of a population that moved from inner minor asia almost middle east to west coasts of minor asia, to dwell Greece and Illyria, and later pass to Italy? and assimilate local italian with older language??
that is normal, to me
or they create language in minor asia and kept it pure until italy???

there is also the possibility of a pre-phoenician or cyprus or cilicia or lycaonia that had abjad, and later move to more IE and became creole,

many linguists consider them Levantine towards Phoenician,
the case of Aegean-Anatolian is because there we find that culture in early times,

the possibility of Hatti-Rasians -> Hatrusians ->etruscans
(watch above)

or the posibbility of En-tursis

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenoi

the exonym Tyrrhenoi sends me to Tyros in Lebanon
the Tursis leads me to cillikia the city of Taursus
could they be a pre-Turkish civilization? or the Byzantines name the Turks after Taursus, or just a coincidence?

I know about abjad, Archaiology proves that phoenician alphabet is older than Greek,
and the origin of Latin alphabet is Kyme Κυμη island,
but makes me wonder if Greeks add marks-letters or the phoenician minus them.

probably Etruscan Pelasgians Anatolians and around cyprus there was 1 language population,
or people neighboring in order to trade create a language that mixed

A) either the mix was done by Hettit and Hattians before Etruscans move west,
B) either the mix was done by Minoans in the cities tel-kabri and Alalakh and Cyprus probably as also the city of Tyros which Alexander wait to join him, recognizing him as an apogonus of Pelasgians (Tyros did not belong to the same group as Sidon and Byblos, Greeks had many cities with simmilar name)
C) either there were 3 mix
1 in Italy
2nd in Aegean
3rd in Illyria

the case that Minoans were not Pelasgic but Lydian, and Pelasgians were Levantines?
but that it is proven that they are connected.

many questions,

PS
that is out of thread
now about the case of Abjad
in Thessaly and in Epirus is clear and obvious, not that much in other areas,
people when speaking they erase or no pronounce vowels,

in 1900 that sounds make many foreign scientists to imagine that they discover a new language,
the less vowel in Greek language, especially in these areas makes it sound like Slavic speaking people than a greek,
example
κοχλιαριοθηκη ko-chli-a-ri-o-the-ke
in Serres becomes khliarothek k_-chli-a-r_-o-the-k_ minus 3 vowel

they use only the vowels they need, and sometimes you wonder what they say, cause each village uses its own

example 2 (she was a pretty girl) asking me

δεν με λες, φυσικο ειναι το μαλλι σου? became
δε' μ' λες, φυσ'κο 'ν' το μαλλι σ' ? 5 vowel miising and 1 n
(i understand φoυσκωνει
φυσικο = natural φoυσκωνει = pump up, extra volume)

is that an oral abjad???
so if write it down then i use a kind of abjad system?
is inside Dna to speak like that?


PS2
so in case fro thewru
could have just marks ΘWR , and we suggest it says Thewru, according other writen in same tablet, and according same marks found in other areas.
but ΘWR could be thawru thewru thawro etc?
like QRT HDST could also be Qurata Hedesta or QReT HuDSaT etc.
is the Etruscan tablets in abjad system written? cause then we all make quess,



PS3
Some science fiction searchers connect Pelasgian with Atlantis,
the Αιγιαλις Aigialis,
geologists prove that whole Greece was sea before years, later 2 land were the Greece and the Aigialis, Aigialis sunk after Thera Volcanic activity,
using the above as also the avaris and some geologigal achivements claim that Atlantis was a land that sunk and create today geological situation,

it is a scenario, although in that case we hunt witches or aliens,

the case of Pelasgian culture is enough old (starts from 5000 BC and is in its high before 3000) surely leave us a ray of light to susspect that pelasgians could be before many middle east culture,
and many anatolian languages are Aegean and not middle eastern.
but that is still under suspicion and not wide proved, reaching science fiction, although there is a possibility, if some new archaiological evidence prove so,

there is εvidence of that in some videos,
1) Phaistos disk have 17 symbols same with 24 Phoenician,
Phaistos is far ancient that phoenicians,
2) Phoenicians if they were so strong at 1150 , then why Greeks left 10 years leaving behind no man, no ship? who will protect their families,
3 if Priamus hire so many, then why he did not hire Phoenician mercenairies,

Arthur Evans in Scripta Minoa 1909 is clear that phoenicians took Alphabet from Cretans,
who were the south and second capital of Pelasgians ατ 1300 BC,
in that case drives us today some marks as Y X D in an island that are same time with Egyptian protosinaitic,

the above theory is not yet rejected, or accepted, simply misses evidence, as also evidence are missing to reject it, only a tomp of king, is older than Pelasgic form alphabet,
the case that Greeks added vowels in Phoenician alphabet could be opposite,
the phoenician minus vowels cause they only use 4 strong haevy and long the μακρα α αι (εε) ω η
not even ου


PS 4
about abjad and vowel languages,
try comparing north languages with african, or arabian,
north languages use a less vowel, cause they open mouth a lot, and warm air is leaving body,
but in Africa, vowels are many cause speaking with vowels cools mouth and body

Taranis
28-04-11, 07:34
Iapetoc,

generally, I wouldn't say that Etruscan wasn't a an abjad. In particular because it was developed from the Greek alphabet (an early - western/euboan - form of it, anyways) not the Phoenician one. However, it's clear that Etruscan dropped vowels. In regard for that Greek sample you gave, it's contracted, that's not an "oral abjad", but I get what you're saying. It's very possible that Etruscan worked a similar way. There is also the fact that in ancient time, there was no such thing as spelling conventions, and people would write phonetically. If vowels were pronounced very short, it'd make sense to dump them in text.

Regarding Phoenician, I'm not an expert on the Semitic languages, but generally:
- Phoenician, like Hebrew, is a Northwest-Semitic language and was probably even mutually intelligible with it.
- Many Phoenician words are actually spelled identifical to Hebrew (at least within the abjad system)
- There are Punic texts from the Roman period (the Punic language survived the destruction of Carthage by many centuries) which are written in Latin script.

iapetoc
28-04-11, 08:57
what do you believe?

could etruscan be Hath-Raetians? Hattians?

or could they could be En-Tursis

the most clear is what zanipolo gave, the Strabo connection of Pelasgians with Etruscans,

there is a book of Jehunda,
that connects Ugarit, Hebrew, and ancient Greek-Pelasgic, he claims the area of Syria especially the sea coastal Syria,
although that reaches science fiction the connection is enough in Linguistic forms,

i don't surely know Taranis, i added 2 more ps in my previous post,
the Evans Theory, and how climate affects language,

I am afraid of mistakes, cause i have many, I connect Etruscans with J2 and in wiki I read about G.
Pelasgian from early Mycenean Greeks where not considered as their own tribe, as pure IE greeks
later Before Hesiod and same time with Temenus return started to communicate and become 1 nation

Etruscan's although they are early connected with minor Asia and Aegean, later they considered 1 of the Roman empire founders,
many Roman's used their influence to them in order to gain power.
the Italization of Etruscan is certain especially when they allied With Carchedona against Magna Crecia.

the case of Etruscan being Illyrians or opposite is out of Discussion,
the Illyrians accepted Italian form of grammar and speech when they adopted Messapic,
Albanian origin is still under discuss and search by many,
the Illyrian that past in Albanian Language are proves of connection, but as History have shown us is from sharing a common ancestor.

Taranis
28-04-11, 09:09
Regarding the name, I have honestly no idea - it's very difficult to estimate what the original form there is, also consider that the Romans used the term "Tusci". I also speculated in the past if the "Turiša" mentioned by the Egyptians amongst the Sea Peoples could be the same as the "Tyrsenoi" (ie, Etruscans).

I also agree that a relationship of Etruscan with Illyrian and/or Albanian is out of the question.

Regarding Etruscan DNA (which is technically off-topic in this thread :laughing: ), given how they came from Anatolia, they might be both J2 and G...

Vallicanus
28-04-11, 09:30
Regarding the name, I have honestly no idea - it's very difficult to estimate what the original form there is, also consider that the Romans used the term "Tusci". I also speculated in the past if the "Turiša" mentioned by the Egyptians amongst the Sea Peoples could be the same as the "Tyrsenoi" (ie, Etruscans).

I also agree that a relationship of Etruscan with Illyrian and/or Albanian is out of the question.

Regarding Etruscan DNA (which is technically off-topic in this thread :laughing: ), given how they came from Anatolia, they might be both J2 and G...

Only one element in Etruria came from Anatolia.

Recent genetic studies show more West Asian ancestry in southern Italy than in Tuscany.

Hal Fao
29-04-11, 00:26
In Albanian we can find the etymology of a large number of words of the nowadays European languages or of the ancient Greek and Latin.
If you look for the etymology of the word "create", you'll find that it is the Latin "crescere" = "arise, grow”
Frankly, I fail to understand how the Latin word “crescere” which means "arise, grow” gives to the word “create” the meaning “to make sth new or original”, or "to cause sth to exist". I think that the true etymology of the word "create” is the Gheg Albanian word “kre” (definite “krea”) which means “head", “the upper part of sth”.
Even it is quite understandable that it’s just the head which “produces sth new or original”.
In Gheg Albanian:
“kret” (in some areas: “kryt”) = “head”;
“kre/kry” = “head; the upper part of sth”.
“Krei/kryj” = “to perform, to carry out, to complete” (to do smth consciously);
“kreoi/krioj” = “to create”;
“kreies/kries” = “creature”;
“kreit/krejt” = “quite” (from the beginning to the end);
“krime/kryme” = “done” (consciously done).
Etc.
In standard Albanian:
“kryet” = “head”;
“krye” = see “kre/kry”.
“kryei/kryej” = “to perform, to carry out, to complete” (consciously);
“krioi/krijoj” = “to create”;
“kries/krijesë” = “creature”;
“kreit/krejt” = “quite” (from the beginning to the end).
Etc.
There are numerous words in the nowadays European languages as well as in ancient Greek and Latin which contain the wordroot “kre/kry” (cre/cri) = “head”, “the upper part of sth”:
In Italian: creare, credere, crescere, crimine, cresta, cretinata, cretineria, critica, criterio etc., etc..
In Greek: κριτής = judge (n); κριμα = pity; κριτική=criticism; κρίσιμος = critical; κριτήριο = test; κρίνο = judge (v); υποκριτής = hypocrite, etc., etc..
Even the Greek island Creta means “head” (to my opinion), since it was the head of the pelasgian civilization in second millennia BC.
In Albanian, the suffix –oi/oj turns the nouns into verbs, eg:
Punë (work, n.) = punoj (work, v.)
Dhunë (violence) = dhunoj (violate)
Këngë (song) = këndoj (sing)
Krye/krie (head) = krioj/krijoj (create), etc.

Ps: Latin has borrowed from Etruscan a very large number of words.
If the Etruscan scholars had known very well Albanian, Etruscan would have been deciphered a long time ago.

Taranis
29-04-11, 00:57
In Albanian we can find the etymology of a large number of words of the nowadays European languages or of the ancient Greek and Latin.
If you look for the etymology of the word "create", you'll find that it is the Latin "crescere" = "arise, grow”
Frankly, I fail to understand how the Latin word “crescere” which means "arise, grow” gives to the word “create” the meaning “to make sth new or original”, or "to cause sth to exist". I think that the true etymology of the word "create” is the Gheg Albanian word “kre” (definite “krea”) which means “head", “the upper part of sth”.

Hal Fao,

no offense to you, but it is evident that you have a very limited understanding of linguistics. First off, "Create" does not come from "crescere" but "creare".

If you look at the conjunctive present form:
- cream
- creas
- creat
- creamus
- creatis
- creant

... it's clear how the word is related with "Create".

Second, you are completely unaware of sound laws and other fundamental concepts. Finally, you are also unaware of the grammatical structure of Etruscan, which is agglutinative, which is verymuch unlike Indo-European languages, including Albanian. In particular, you cannot simply compare random modern Albanian words without giving a thought to the Albanian language evolved in the meantime.

Hal Fao
29-04-11, 02:34
Cool boy!
It's true that "create" comes from "creare" which relates to "crescere". Look at www.etymonline.com
create
late 14c., from L. creatus, pp. of creare "to make, bring forth, produce, beget," related to crescere "arise, grow" (see crescent). Related: Created; creating.
There is no other word in Latin to show us the etymology of "create" (or "creare", it's the same); "crescere" is so to say, the best which Latin offers as an etymological source to "creare". It lacks the wordroot "crea" (the head) which does still survive in Albanian.
I can not take seriously what etruscan scholars say about, until it is going on to be undeciphered. All their analyses are but nothing.

iapetoc
29-04-11, 05:41
In Albanian we can find the etymology of a large number of words of the nowadays European languages or of the ancient Greek and Latin.
If you look for the etymology of the word "create", you'll find that it is the Latin "crescere" = "arise, grow”
Frankly, I fail to understand how the Latin word “crescere” which means "arise, grow” gives to the word “create” the meaning “to make sth new or original”, or "to cause sth to exist". I think that the true etymology of the word "create” is the Gheg Albanian word “kre” (definite “krea”) which means “head", “the upper part of sth”.
Even it is quite understandable that it’s just the head which “produces sth new or original”.
In Gheg Albanian:
“kret” (in some areas: “kryt”) = “head”;
“kre/kry” = “head; the upper part of sth”.
“Krei/kryj” = “to perform, to carry out, to complete” (to do smth consciously);
“kreoi/krioj” = “to create”;
“kreies/kries” = “creature”;
“kreit/krejt” = “quite” (from the beginning to the end);
“krime/kryme” = “done” (consciously done).
Etc.
In standard Albanian:
“kryet” = “head”;
“krye” = see “kre/kry”.
“kryei/kryej” = “to perform, to carry out, to complete” (consciously);
“krioi/krijoj” = “to create”;
“kries/krijesë” = “creature”;
“kreit/krejt” = “quite” (from the beginning to the end).
Etc.
There are numerous words in the nowadays European languages as well as in ancient Greek and Latin which contain the wordroot “kre/kry” (cre/cri) = “head”, “the upper part of sth”:
In Italian: creare, credere, crescere, crimine, cresta, cretinata, cretineria, critica, criterio etc., etc..
In Greek: κριτής = judge (n); κριμα = pity; κριτική=criticism; κρίσιμος = critical; κριτήριο = test; κρίνο = judge (v); υποκριτής = hypocrite, etc., etc..
Even the Greek island Creta means “head” (to my opinion), since it was the head of the pelasgian civilization in second millennia BC.
In Albanian, the suffix –oi/oj turns the nouns into verbs, eg:
Punë (work, n.) = punoj (work, v.)
Dhunë (violence) = dhunoj (violate)
Këngë (song) = këndoj (sing)
Krye/krie (head) = krioj/krijoj (create), etc.

Ps: Latin has borrowed from Etruscan a very large number of words.
If the Etruscan scholars had known very well Albanian, Etruscan would have been deciphered a long time ago.


Nope Hal fao

Kre in albanian is ancient,
the IE Greeks used the word Κεφαλη, Μakedonians used Kevali, slavic glavata

Kre is connected with Cadmeians Kara Καρα
Kara is the bone of the head,
Later in koine became Κρανιο Kranio Craniumor Kranium


in Sophocles Antigone the author try to put as many pelasgian-Cadmeian as he can
so Antigone Holding her sister's headbone (skull) say
O καρα αναδερφος, Ισμηνης καρα
Oh my sister's kara, Ismene's kara,

in modern Turkish is Kafa

either of Pelasgian,

the small kara is karanion -a = kranion ->cranium in latin

Crete has same meaning Greece

C is Γ ιν Γρεεκ creta -> Γρετ-α
Greek = Γρεκ-ος
if i go back to Doric and Ionian Γρουσσα = Greek language in Doric
Γλωττα = Greek language in Ionic
Γρετα = Greek language
Γρικα = greek language in Aeolic

and there is no connection with name Gretta,

the albanian kre is the Greek kara the turkish kafa,

the word create in Greek is
δημιουργω Di+ergo = Divine work, Zeus work,
also
ποιω poio pio create - make English poet
εργω = Ι work modern ergazomai (voice change) english work
τεχνω = Ι make Art, I build, tecton = builder but techne = Art

there is a Ancient word κουρα, cura - kura
in modern means haircut, or tired Κουραση
but in ancient meant work - produce
Eπικουρος Epikouros means either top worker, or in work project specialist, either dedicated to work
the Cretans name their sheeps Κουρα-δι, production

in modern we find
latin imported fait as φτιαχνω ftiachno
german imported mastor mastorevo

kre and kara are also connected with Κριος, the male sheep, that uses Kre-kara as a weapon,

The connections of Kre (head) with Cre-ate is just off
Kre comes from same root with Kara-Kranio and Crius, Kroios Titan etc,


the word Pune (work) is Hesiod's time very ancient,
Ponos in modern Greek is the ache,
But Πονηρος ponos+αιρω, is the one that does want to work, and think methods to avoid,
Ponos is effort, the ache of hard working, the 'Heavy work' effort and results,
After roman times change to ache,
the original word for ache is algos, algos today is only a scientific word
Ancient Greeks used the word Εκ-πονησις means the result of a hard-work
Greek use to say Ο πονος τε και ο καματος της ημερας,
the pain of hard work, and the get tired, exhausted of a day,
achthos αχθος = to carry heavy weights became ache in English
ponos Πονος = hard and exhausted work became ache in Greek and pain in English
Algos Αλγος = body pain, replaced by Πονος
Κουρα = produce-work became exhausted and tired κουρασις
κανω an alternate word for create, also means exhausted καμνω
similar engilsh can
εργω I work, δημιουργω = create
Ποιω i create ποιητης poet in English

the connection of kαρα(kara) - kre
with Κουρα(kura) - kreoi
and Κορη(kore) - Krye


hmmm
does not fit to me
simply you proving connection of Albanian with rest IE and especially Greek to me,


plz the Κρι-της is another them word-root than καρ-α, than κουρα,

The Krye (I see) in albanian maybe is coonected with ancient Greek κορη,
οπη is the hole
but also Kore
κορη οφθαλμου not οπη οφθαλμου is the hole of the eye
οφθαλμος = champer with a hole οπη+θαλαμος or θολος
the hole is κορη female, in English became whore
κορη is also the entrance of a woman genetical organs,
κορη In modern is daughter, but the exact ancient is Θυγατηρ-τρος Thugater
female κορη means the entrance to an empty area
while male Koresmos means filling up the emptyness
Kourhtes κουρητες comes from χορος (dancers)
Χορευτες in modern Κουρητες in ancient
though and because of Kore we see,

The IE have branches and subcranches
The European brances are
1 the Latin (italy-spain-france etc)
2 the Germanic (Germany- Holland etc)
3 The BaltoSlavic (Baltic and south slavic)
4 Celtic although almost exting some Irish or others still claim that title
5 the Greek
6 Albanian,

the Non IE European languages
are Basques Mayars and Finnish I think,
I maybe amwrongin someor forgot
Albanian belongs to IE, but surely is not the mother language, or the starting point of IE language,
Albania is connected with other language due to IE and Pelasgic, and not because is the mother of IE languages
Because etruscans or latin are missing the Kre or crea
does not mean that latin are Albanian origin,
cause similarity of Kre with cre could be just a co-incedence
and kre could be imported by Greek kara or later by latin crani

i still don't understand what you want to prove,
that Albanians are Etruscans, that Albanians are Italians? or the opposite,

how about find Etruscan origin in that

Pirja e Duhanit nga grate shtatzena femijien
Duhani demton rende shendetin
Shitet vetem per te rritur

sound Etruscan to you?

ok maybe i went far enough i don't want to insult, but plz don't insult our minds.


who knows maybe word Κρυο kruo kryo (cold, sometimes killing cold) is connected with kore kura and kara

Dagne
29-04-11, 07:42
create is "kurti" in modern Lithuanian, the connection must be Proto Indoeurepean then

Taranis
29-04-11, 10:01
Cool boy!
It's true that "create" comes from "creare" which relates to "crescere". Look at www.etymonline.com
create
late 14c., from L. creatus, pp. of creare "to make, bring forth, produce, beget," related to crescere "arise, grow" (see crescent). Related: Created; creating.
There is no other word in Latin to show us the etymology of "create" (or "creare", it's the same); "crescere" is so to say, the best which Latin offers as an etymological source to "creare". It lacks the wordroot "crea" (the head) which does still survive in Albanian.

You are wrong. As I said, "Create" is derived from "Creare", not "Crescrere".

There is also probable cognates with Latin "Creare" in the Celtic languages:
- Old Irish "Cruth" ("form, shape")
- Modern Irish "Cruthú"
- Breton "Krouin"
- Welsh "Creu"


I can not take seriously what etruscan scholars say about, until it is going on to be undeciphered. All their analyses are but nothing.

Again, no offense, but that is just about as wrong as you can be. For one, Etruscan isn't "undeciphered", it has been deciphered for a long time, in particular there are bilingual inscriptions (Phoenician-Etruscan) which show us clearly that Etruscan was a non-IE language. your ad-hoc declaration that scholars cannot be taken seriously proves that you have no idea about linguistics. You only want Albanian to be related with Etruscan - though the reasons for that elude me.


create is "kurti" in modern Lithuanian, the connection must be Proto Indoeurepean then

I agree that is far more probable.

Hal Fao
05-05-11, 01:57
Again, no offense, but that is just about as wrong as you can be. For one, Etruscan isn't "undeciphered", it has been deciphered for a long time, in particular there are bilingual inscriptions (Phoenician-Etruscan) which show us clearly that Etruscan was a non-IE language. your ad-hoc declaration that scholars cannot be taken seriously proves that you have no idea about linguistics. You only want Albanian to be related with Etruscan - though the reasons for that elude me.
Would you mention please the name of an Etruscan researcher who has made an Etruscan translation (of course that does not begin with the note "Rough translation" and does not end with the phrase "Etruscan language is a mystery ...".
“Rough translation” means a “rough decipherment” too, you know.
It is precisely the “rough decipherment” which leads Etruscan just to the … mystery.
You have to understand what it means to analyze a "Rough translation".
(If there is no real translation, what’s the use of analyzing "the mystery").

Regarding to the correlation of the Gheg Albanian word “kre/krea” (crea) = “head” and Latin “creare” (or English “create”):
In modern Sanskrit too: “Shirah” = “head”; “srijati” = “create”; “kri” = “to do”.
Nevertheless, the problem does not lay simply in the etymology of a word.
Let's take for example the Sanskrit word "Sakti" = "power","potency" (or "shaktih" = "power", "Might").
This word is found in almost all European languages, but its identification would be almost impossible without the help of Albanian.
Here's how in Albanian:
sakte = exactly
e sakte (adj.) = 1 - without drawbacks (physical or mental), 2 -precise (fem.)
i sakte (adj.) = 1 - without drawbacks (physical or mental), 2 -precise (masc.)
Many of the Albanian adverbs become adjectives if we use before them the article e for the fem. or i for the masc. (singular).
In nowadays European languages this word is found in format "esatto", "exact", etc..
As you can see:
e + sakte (fem.) = e-satto, or:
i + sakte (masc.) = exact.
Albanian language does widely use the short forms of the personal pronouns like:i, e, u, iu, mi, me, ma, mu, ta, te, tu, na, ni, or anyother, which are used as word-formative elements in almost all the nowadays European languages, eg:
i di (understand, be enlightened on) i + di = i-dea;
i ditur (versed, enlightened, adj) i + ditur = i-deator-e;
e dukur (handsome, conspicuous) e + dukur = e-ducar-e;
i dukshëm (conspicuous, visible) i-dukshëm = e-ducation;
e kamuna/komuna (the wealth) e + komuna = e-conom-ia;
i kamuni/komuni (the rich, masc.) i + kamuni = e-conomy;
me anger/hangër (to eat) me + anger =m-angiar-e;
e tëra/tera (the all) e + tera = e-tere;
të tërë/ton (all, all of) të + ton = tu-tto;
i gjorë / i ghiorə/ (miserable) i + gjore = i-gnor-are;
i lus (implore to/pray to) i + lus = i-lluso;
i lumnuer (happy/that shines with joy) i + lumnuer = i-lluminare;
Etc.. etc.., (I can draw an endless list of words ).
Albanian word "di" analogous to which, if I 'm not wrong , is used only in Romanian “ştiu” and in Estonian "tea”, is the root of the latin words "Dio", "idea"; of the Albanian words "dite = day ", "diell = sun", "dia/dija = the insight", etc.
Via Albanian we can “dismantle” numerous words of the ancient Greek and Latin.
That’s why I insist that Etruscan scholars have to learn Albanian prior than dechipering Etruscan.
I wonder when I hear linguists say that there is no relationship between Albanian and Etruscan, although they do not know a word of Albanian.

PS: Sincerely. I do not consider "more valuable" a language where there survive more ancient words than another one which has less ancient words, except for study purposes. What's the use of quarrelling about?

Taranis
05-05-11, 08:43
Would you mention please the name of an Etruscan researcher who has made an Etruscan translation (of course that does not begin with the note "Rough translation" and does not end with the phrase "Etruscan language is a mystery ...".
“Rough translation” means a “rough decipherment” too, you know.
It is precisely the “rough decipherment” which leads Etruscan just to the … mystery.
You have to understand what it means to analyze a "Rough translation".
(If there is no real translation, what’s the use of analyzing "the mystery").

I would seriously recommend taking a look at the Pyrgi Tablet. It is, as stated above, a bilingual text (Phoenician and Etruscan). The Phoenician language is a Semitic language, closely related with Hebrew and well understood. Are you implying that we cannot read Phoenician either because we do (purportedly) not understand it?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/EtruscanLanguage2.JPG

The Etruscan part:

Ita tmia icac he-
ramašawa watieχe-
unialastres θemia-
sa meχ θuta θefa-
riei welianas sal
cluwenais turu-
ce munistas θuwas-
tameresca ilacwe-
tχlerase nac ci awi-
l χurwar tešiameit-
ale ilacwe alšase-
nac atranes zilac-
al seleitala acnašw-
ers itanim heram-
we awil eniaca pul-
umχwa

Nac θefarie wel-
iiunias θamuce-
clewa etanal-
masan tiur-
unias šelace w-
acal tmial a-
wilχwal amuc-
e pulumχw-
a snuiaφ

The Phoenician part:

lrbt l‘štrt 'šr qdš
'z 'š p‘l w'š ytn
tbry wln mlk'l
kyšry byrħ zbħ
šmš bmtn 'bbt wbn
tw k‘štrt 'rš bdy

lmlky šnt šlš 3 by
rħ krr bym qbr
'lm wšnt lm'š 'lm
bbty šnt km hkkbm

What is very interesting here is the transliteration of personal names (bolded).

"Lady Ashtarte" and "Tiberi Velian"


Regarding to the correlation of the Gheg Albanian word “kre/krea” (crea) = “head” and Latin “creare” (or English “create”):
In modern Sanskrit too: “Shirah” = “head”; “srijati” = “create”; “kri” = “to do”.
Nevertheless, the problem does not lay simply in the etymology of a word.
Let's take for example the Sanskrit word "Sakti" = "power","potency" (or "shaktih" = "power", "Might").
This word is found in almost all European languages, but its identification would be almost impossible without the help of Albanian.

I think it is highly presumptous of you to think that the identification of a word is impossible without Albanian. Sanskrit is technically not a modern language, it is the classical language of Indian Antiquity (though there is still a few people who can speak it). The basis of Indo-European linguistics was the discovery of the similarity between the three classical languages of Antiquity (Classical Greek, Latin and Sanskrit). Later it was discovered how the Celtic and Germanic languages tie in, as well as other branches as the list was gradually expanded.


Here's how in Albanian:
sakte = exactly
e sakte (adj.) = 1 - without drawbacks (physical or mental), 2 -precise (fem.)
i sakte (adj.) = 1 - without drawbacks (physical or mental), 2 -precise (masc.)
Many of the Albanian adverbs become adjectives if we use before them the article e for the fem. or i for the masc. (singular).
In nowadays European languages this word is found in format "esatto", "exact", etc..
As you can see:
e + sakte (fem.) = e-satto, or:
i + sakte (masc.) = exact.


Albanian language does widely use the short forms of the personal pronouns like:i, e, u, iu, mi, me, ma, mu, ta, te, tu, na, ni, or anyother, which are used as word-formative elements in almost all the nowadays European languages, eg:
i di (understand, be enlightened on) i + di = i-dea;
i ditur (versed, enlightened, adj) i + ditur = i-deator-e;
e dukur (handsome, conspicuous) e + dukur = e-ducar-e;
i dukshëm (conspicuous, visible) i-dukshëm = e-ducation;
e kamuna/komuna (the wealth) e + komuna = e-conom-ia;
i kamuni/komuni (the rich, masc.) i + kamuni = e-conomy;
me anger/hangër (to eat) me + anger =m-angiar-e;
e tëra/tera (the all) e + tera = e-tere;
të tërë/ton (all, all of) të + ton = tu-tto;
i gjorë / i ghiorə/ (miserable) i + gjore = i-gnor-are;
i lus (implore to/pray to) i + lus = i-lluso;
i lumnuer (happy/that shines with joy) i + lumnuer = i-lluminare;
Etc.. etc.., (I can draw an endless list of words ).
Albanian word "di" analogous to which, if I 'm not wrong , is used only in Romanian “ştiu” and in Estonian "tea”, is the root of the latin words "Dio", "idea"; of the Albanian words "dite = day ", "diell = sun", "dia/dija = the insight", etc.
Via Albanian we can “dismantle” numerous words of the ancient Greek and Latin.

Sorry, but that is complete nonsense. As far as I can tell, all of your "magical dismantlements" are verymuch false etymologies because you seem to have no understanding Greek or Latin. I do not want to get into detail here, but let's pick a few examples:

"Economia" is latinized from Greek "Oikonomia". Greek "Oikos" being "house", and "Oikonomia" can roughly be translated in turn as "house management". "Oiku-" can be also found in other words such as "Oikumene" ("Ecumene"), meaning roughly "Inhabited" (in the sense of "inhabited world").

"Educare" ("to bring up") comes from Latin "ducere" (to lead). The prefix "e-" points to a direction. It's also hilarious that you variably give two different words in Albanian (dukur and dukshem) as different roots for two words ("Educare" and "Education") which clearly have one and the same root (you have to consider Latin conjucation here again).

"Ignorare" comes from "I-" (negation) gnorare, which is in turn related with "Gnaritas" (knowledge). Also compare Greek "Gnoseis" (knowledge). Hence, somebody who is ignorant is somebody who refuses knowledge, which makes much more sense than that he is "miserable" (technically, with the "I-" before, the person would be "unmiserable", which is kind of the opposite meaning). Also, you would have a problem to explain how "gjore" yields "gnorare".

As you can see, all your "magical dismantlements" can easily proven to be spurious.


That’s why I insist that Etruscan scholars have to learn Albanian prior than dechipering Etruscan.
I wonder when I hear linguists say that there is no relationship between Albanian and Etruscan, although they do not know a word of Albanian.

Again, it is very presumptous of yourself to ad-hoc assume that Albanian and Etruscan must be somehow related. The reason why it is obvious to insist that Albanian and Etruscan are unrelated is threefold:

1) Albanian, without a doubt, is an Indo-European language, wheras Etruscan verymuch isn't.

2) The sound-inventory of the Etruscan language is fundamentally non-Indo-European. This gets very clear if you take a look at how non-Etruscan (in particular Greek) names are transliterated. As a general rule, IE language distinguish between voiced/unvoiced stop consonants (BDG/PTK), whereas Etruscan didn't. As I stated before, if you want to demonstrate that Albanian words are somehow related with Etruscan ones, you, amongst other things, need to demonstrate how PTK variably yields PTK and BDG. If you cannot demonstrate that there is some kind of rule and consistency behind it, your similarities are just coincidential.

3) Etruscan is attested 8th through 1st century BC, wheras Albanian is only attested from the 15th century onwards. That's some 1500 years in between, which is a tremendous amount of time which allows for considerable changes in a language. This is another issue you should be considering when trying to "magically dismantle" languages that are considerably older than Albanian.


PS: Sincerely. I do not consider "more valuable" a language where there survive more ancient words than another one which has less ancient words, except for study purposes. What's the use of quarrelling about?

To be honest, I have no idea what you are trying to say here.

Taranis
05-05-11, 13:43
I've tried to visualize this along the lines of the first sentence:

"Ita Tmia Icac Heramashwa Watiakh-e Uni-al astre-s Themiasa Mekh Thuta"
This Temple and the Hermes (idols) dedicated to (the) Goddess Astarte build (by) people (of the) tribe.

Ita (demonstrative pronoun - "this")

Tmia (temple)

Ica-c ("and this")

Heram- (Hermes)
-ash- (plural particle)
-wa (adjective particle)

Wati- (to dedicate)
-ekh- (passive particle)
-e (infinitive particle)

Uni- ("Juno" - used here as a title, mirroring "Lady")
-al (noun genitive particle)

Astre- (Astarte)
-s (noun genitive particle)

Them- (to build)
-ias- (ablative particle)
-a (conjunctive particle)

Mekh (people)

Thuta (tribe)

I hope that clarifies something about the grammatical structure of Etruscan. :)

iapetoc
05-05-11, 14:17
Hall Fao

these small μορια exists in All IE languages

Greek εν εκ με σε negative α αν απ με σε
English un in dis de etc,

as for importance of Albanian language to explain Greek and Latin

hmmmm lets see

IDEA
Greek word for see - watch

Ιδω see, to realize
ορω sεε, i see I view
τερω ορ τηρω see I watch I observe
βλεπω I see, I see though a hole etc

Lets see the nouns
Ορω -> ορασις orasis vision -> oracle vision of future
ιδω -> Ιδεα Idea Idea -> pre seen, pre - realize on how it will work,

Albanian e tere to all
Greek virb ταιριω modern ταιριαζω Noun ταιρι (partner, cooperative)
εν ταιρι-ος = εταιρος partner cooper corporation = εταιρεια
tairi similar word in English is Pair -Partner

so as you SEE using your laws and your Albanian explanations simply we F... Greek and Latin

plz the γλωσσικα μορια are far ancient,
and in All IE languages not only in Albanian

about the Di = God
thank you I have already said that,
Find how many Gods of Ancient Greeks have the -Di- or TI or -THE-
IE DI is not Albanian
Di is also Greek Latin
Vrygian TI etc,

Understand that Albanian is not the PIE or the mother of IE languages,
Not even Greek is PIE which we know its grammar and literature 3500 years now
understand that a language like Greek with alphabet and Huge literature change a lot, Latin became to italian
how about Albanian that the older text is from 1500 AD and First Lexicon writen in late 1700 -1800
how much has been changed,

Albanian is a IE language no Need to prove it by F... Other langueges
IT IS ΝΟΤ ONLY ALBANIAN THAT USES ΓΛΩΣΣΙΚΑ ΜΟΡΙΑ BUT ALL IE DO,

YOUR EFFORT AND YOUR GRAMMAR RULES SURELY PROVE THAT YOUR THEORY IS WRONG,
ONLY IN YOUR FEW SAMPLES YOU F... £ GREEK WORDS, AND GAVE WRONG MEANING,

ECONOMY MEANS ΟΙΚΟ+ΝΟΜΗ FROM VIRB NEMΩ
IF ECONOMY WAS GOD WOULD BE ΟΙΚΟ-ΝΕΜΕΣΙΣ

iapetoc
05-05-11, 15:09
I've tried to visualize this along the lines of the first sentence:

"Ita Tmia Icac Heramashwa Watiakh-e Uni-al astre-s Themiasa Mekh Thuta"
This Temple and the Hermes (idols) dedicated to (the) Goddess Astarte build (by) people (of the) tribe.

Ita (demonstrative pronoun - "this")





Tmia (temple)

Ica-c ("and this")

Heram- (Hermes)
-ash- (plural particle)
-wa (adjective particle)

Wati- (to dedicate)
-ekh- (passive particle)
-e (intinitive particle)

Uni- ("Juno" - used here as a title, mirroring "Lady")
-al (noun genitive particle)

Astre- (Astarte)
-s (noun genitive particle)

Them- (to build)
-ias- (ablative particle)
-a (conjunctive particle)

Mekh (people)

Thuta (tribe)

I hope that clarifies something about the grammatical structure of Etruscan. :)


just wondering,
Tmia could be Turkish temen

Thuta people could be Θυται Mekh Thuta mean devoted people? or religious people, or followers? Τhe sacred ones or the sacrificers?
Heramashwa ???? could be Ιερα ? Or Hera, just to try translate it in Attic

Iera = Holly (Plural)
Ieron could means Holy Temple so Tmia Heramash = Holy Temple
or Heras temple,
just quess or Add possible,

'Ουτος ναος (τεμενος) τε ουται γε Ερμαι Εδωθηκαν Γυνης Ασταρτης (παρ') Θεμελιω-σαντας Θυτας
pasive voice
Utos Naos τe oute whe Herme Εdoτηιkan to wife-woman Astarti (par) Themeliosantαs Thutas
active Voice
Ουτοn Ναοn (τεμενος) τε ουται γε Ερμαι Εδωκαν εις Γυνη Ασταρτη οι Θεμελιωσαντες Θυταις
Uton Naon τe oute whe Herme Εdokan to wife-woman of Stars (Astarti) Themeliosantes Thutes

Themelion = Foundation in Greek
Juno in Greek Γυνη gune gini means wife, female that can born,

so Indeed Taranis the above text and translation you post show connection of Anatolian origin,
towards semitic or pure Anatolian?

only i don't know if wati-ekh is the Greek virb εδωκα wati->εδω-κα
and if Thuta is Greek-Pelasgian Θυται or Hesiodic Titan Gods before IE Gods.

και = and
τε + word + γε = και + word later that form is abandon
so we could write and as και + word or τε + word +γε

the result is that Juno and them also exist in Greek and tmia in Turkish
the rest are possible and could have or not connections In Greek Pelasgian

I don't Know How IE or Not it is but, but by 2-3 words I can assume that indeed Tursis pass from Greece, Or as Strabo say Pelasgians moved west.

how yes no 2
05-05-11, 15:46
well, I don't know much about linguistics but let me play a bit with words too...



I've tried to visualize this along the lines of the first sentence:

"Ita Tmia Icac Heramashwa Watiakh-e Uni-al astre-s Themiasa Mekh Thuta"
This Temple and the Hermes (idols) dedicated to (the) Goddess Astarte build (by) people (of the) tribe.


Ita (demonstrative pronoun - "this")

"taj" = "that" in Serbian (for masculine nouns)
"i ta" = "and that" in Serbian ("ta" = that for feminine nouns)


Tmia (temple)

"dom"= home in Slavic
(masculine noun)


Ica-c ("and this")
"i" = "and" in Slavic
"kuća" = house in Serbian
(feminine noun)

thus, I think literary translation is not "temple" but "home and house"...


if I was to say "that home and house" I would say
"taj dom i kuća" or
"ta kuća i dom"

so, I think "ita" = "taj" and not "i ta"


Heram- (Hermes)
-ash- (plural particle)
-wa (adjective particle)

why not:
Heramash = Hermes
-wa (possesive adjective/determiner)

in Serbian
"home of Hermes" = "dom Hermesov"
"home and house of Hermes" = "dom i kuća Hermesova"

while above is "tmia Ica-c Heramashwa"



Wati- (to dedicate)
-ekh- (passive particle)
-e (infinitive particle)


this could be italic word....
e.g. it reminds me of Vatican, which has similar religious conotation of being dedicated to Gods..


Uni- ("Juno" - used here as a title, mirroring "Lady")
-al (noun genitive particle)
italic word


Astre- (Astarte)
-s (noun genitive particle)


Them- (to build)
-ias- (ablative particle)
-a (conjunctive particle)

"temelj" = foundation, basis of house in Serbian

corresponding verbs are:
"utemeljiti" (infinitive)
"utemeljiše" would be past tense for 3rd person plural (they have founded)


Mekh (people)
Mekh is tribal name...same as Macedonians...
ancient Macedonians and Etruscans were both R1a dominant people...


Thuta (tribe)

IE word..... "ljudi" = people in Slavic, "četa" = military unit


so this playing a bit with vocabularies of Italic and Slavic languages (because Slavic is spoken by many R1a people of today and Etruscans seems to have had strong or dominant R1a) would give translation such as:

"That home and house of Hermes dedicated to Lady Astarte was founded by a military unit of Macedonians"

compared to originally given translation:

"This Temple and the Hermes (idols) dedicated to (the) Goddess Astarte build (by) people (of the) tribe."

my version sounds to me more plausible...
but as I have said I do not know much about linguistics...

Taranis
05-05-11, 17:15
I (unfortunately so) can't go into detail about everything, but there's a few issues I'd like to comment on:

"Heram-ash" - it obviously looks very suggestive to assume that it's part of the name (Hermes <-> Heramash), BUT the particle "-ash" (or "-ashi") is definitely not part of the name, since it's well-known to be a plural noun particle in Etruscan. For example Clan "son" -> Clen-ashi "sons". Also, if you look further down in the inscription, the word is also attested in the form "Heram-we".

"Mekh" definitely isn't a name, but instead really means "people" (though, alternatively, the interpretation perhaps as "citizens" would also be viable). It's often found in combination with "Rasna" (the Etruscan name for themselves - so, possibly "Etruscan people" or "Etruscan citizens").

"Thuta" - I agree that this is almost certainly an Indo-European loan (attested in Baltic, Celtic and Germanic with the meaning "tribe" or "people"). As stated before, the Etruscans, when borrowing IE words these apparently frequently are aspirated (compare "Thewru" - bull).

LeBrok
05-05-11, 18:09
After a beautiful lecture of Taranis I would shut up and learn something. But no, the rest of linguists are rushing in. Now we know that Etruscans are definitely from Anatolia, and on top of it there were no Etruscans, they were Serbs with Latin influence, lol. In this light of understanding, Etruscan coming from Albanian is quite plausible too. Etruscans are free for all..., adopt a tribe guys, they feel so lonly...
Who the hell stole the Occam's razor?!

how yes no 2
05-05-11, 18:10
After a beautiful lecture of Taranis I would shut up and learn something.
judging by your posts on this and similar topics perhaps you should shut up...
if you are not able to understand it, ask Taranis to compare for you the methodology used in my post with the one in starting post...


But no, the rest of linguists are rushing in. Now we know that Etruscans are definitely from Anatolia, and on top of it there were no Etruscans, they were Serbs with Latin influence, lol. In this light of understanding, Etruscan coming from Albanian is quite plausible too. Etruscans are free for all..., adopt a tribe guys, they feel so lonly...
Who the hell stole the Occam's razor?!


note that I do not claim that Etruscans were proto-Serbs... in fact, genetically they were clearly very different.... as Serbs are dominantly I2a2 with strong E-V13 and R1a
and in area of influence of Etruscans we find: R1a matching in shape settlements of Etruscans, J2, G2. R1b and I2a1 of Sardinians.. in spreads of the place of their supposed origin we find holes in both R1a and J2 matching exactly Lydia - the area from which they have departed to Italy.... G2 is also wide spread in that area which indicates it may have come with Etruscans as well... R1b is likely due to previous people - e.g. Ligurians, and due to later settlement of Germanic people...

I do not claim that they speak Serbian
but I am sure that there was some relation that gave certain linguistic relationships
and that some or many words that were used by Etruscans is possible to find in Slavic languages, in Italic languages, in Anatolia languages, in Greek and Albanian...

as for grammar, there is noticeable similarity in grammar of latin and Slavic languages that can perhaps be attributed to the influence of etruscan people who accepted latin language.... so I find it quite plausible that grammar of etruscan language had big similarity with Slavic..

while "albanian scientist" from the start of the thread was translating untranslated text and was completely ignoring grammar and linguistic rules, I was looking at possible matches with sentence whose translation is known and have paid special attention (as much as I am able to) to grammar rules...

let me explain the methodology of the albanian scientist from the start of the thread:
imagine that english is extinct language...and we want to decipher the following sentence:

" I have been amazed how dumb some boys are"

now, since I don't know the meaning I can try to understand it with some existing language e.g. my own language.. so, let me try the approach of "albanian scientist" from start of text...

let me see

"I have been amazed how dumb some boys are" (ancient english whose meaning we do not know)
"Ja keva žena Amazonka koja dajem samo vojarima (vojnicima)" (language in which I read it)
" I mum woman Amazonian who gives only to soldiers"" (translation to modern english)

that is approach of "Albanian scientist" from start of thread...

what I did was completely different - I was looking in existing translation via 3rd language (Phoenician) and than have interpreted words with some words existing in Italic and Serbian/Slavic.... Italic as Etruscans merged in with Italic people and thus must have shared part of the vocabulary, Slavic because from what I see Etruscans had strong or dominant R1a haplogroup....(I think they also brought some J2 and G2) and we know that today R1a is dominant in Slavic people... this gave idea that some Slavic words may be used to recognize Etruscan words...so, my methodolgy would be something like this:

"I have been amazed how dumb some boys are" (original in ancient english)
"I am amazing. some boys are dumb" (3 rd language)
"I have been amazed how dumb some boys are" (my reconstruction based on matching the meaning with known 3rd language interpretation)

my translation is in accordance with meaning obtained from Phoenician translation and in fact in my opinion does improve considerably the readability of that translation....

I do not claim I got it all right, but I am sure it is much much more systematic approach than the one of the albanian scientist from start of the thread...




"Heram-ash" - it obviously looks very suggestive to assume that it's part of the name (Hermes <-> Heramash), BUT the particle "-ash" (or "-ashi") is definitely not part of the name, since it's well-known to be a plural noun particle in Etruscan. For example Clan "son" -> Clen-ashi "sons". Also, if you look further down in the inscription, the word is also attested in the form "Heram-we".

it could have been last name in meaning "son of"...

even though the way last names were made in ancient times and now would typically not be the same even in identical language group... I can find link to Serb last names...

e.g. although most Serb last names end in -ić, -ović
that is demunitive and thus has meaning "son of"
there are last names in Serbs ending with -ash
e.g. Plećaš, Vraneš, Dragaš, Kostreš...and so on.... ('š' is proniunced as 'sh')

while possesive adjective/ determiner would still be added in same way...

btw. I would point out that Etruscans identified themselves as Rasenna Raśna (pronounced Rashna) while medieval Serbs used alternative tribal name Rašani (pronounced Rashani)..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia

note that Etruscans arrive from Lydia whose principal town is Sardis...
from text about Tyrrhenians:


Later, in the 6th to 5th centuries BC, the name referred specifically to the Etruscans, for whom the Tyrrhenian Sea is named, according to Strabo.[4] In Pindar,[5] the Tyrsanoi appear grouped with the Carthaginians as a threat to Magna Graecia:


"Spard" or "Sard", another name closely connected to the name Tyrrhenian, was the capital city of the land of Lydia, the original home of the Tyrrhenians; it was referred to by the Greeks as "Sardis". The name preserved by Greek and Egyptian renderings is "Sard," for the Greeks call it "Sardis" and the name appears in the Egyptian inscriptions as "Srdn."[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians

what I did notice while matching the words from the sentence above is that most of matches were in fact related to Serbian only while only some were related to Slavic languages in general.....which may indicate either local Balkan influence on language of Serbs or some level of ancient relationship between proto-Serbs and Etruscans...

I think that a possible link between Etruscans and modern Serb is either via Serians or via place of origin of Balkan Serbs who in my opinion origin from European branch of I2 Serians

note that according to the book of Byzantine emperor Balkan Serbs come to Balkan from the land where they have also originally dwellt....in their language they call the land Boiki which based on description can only be mapped to land of Boii (Bohemia/Bavaria) ... they were called "white" there.... this may map them to Vindelici of Raetia and we do know that Raetians origin from Etruscan people...

however, I think that R1a is related to tribal name Rassena/Rašani/Russians/Thracians/Rosch
while I think that I2a is related to tribal name Serians/Cimmerians and that I2a2 were native people of Bohemia - as indicated by I2a2 having biggest variation in Serbs and south Bohemia ...local hotspot in south Bohemia seems to be in a triangle bounded by place names Srby, Srby and Sorviodurum) and has 3 times larger frequencies than in the rest of Czech lands...)... I think those people did spread along Danube as Scordisci/Serdi..


"Mekh" definitely isn't a name, but instead really means "people" (though, alternatively, the interpretation perhaps as "citizens" would also be viable). It's often found in combination with "Rasna" (the Etruscan name for themselves - so, possibly "Etruscan people" or "Etruscan citizens").
ok, it could have meant people....
but perhaps tribal name Macedonian just meant "people"... e.g to comapre with Teuton tribal name that means just "people"

again tribal name Macedonians is in some relation to tribal name of Serbs.. not just because Macedonians of today who live south of Serbs are people very related to Serbs....

legendary queen of Sheba was known as Makeda in her south countries, and Balkis in Arab tradition... (that is striking similarity to tribal/area names Serbs, Macedonians, Balkan / Bulgars)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Queen_of_Sheba

kingdom of Sheba and later Sabbeans matches branch of Serians who lived on red Sea
and I have gave many indications that Serians are ancestors of Serb and Slavic people... but also of many other peoples such as Sorani Kurds, Pasthun Sarbans....
as a indication for that I will here just repeat that manuscript of Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... for more details read my other posts e.g. this one from thread about sea peoples conquest

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=371418&viewfull=1#post371418

iapetoc
05-05-11, 20:29
After a beautiful lecture of Taranis I would shut up and learn something. But no, the rest of linguists are rushing in. Now we know that Etruscans are definitely from Anatolia, and on top of it there were no Etruscans, they were Serbs with Latin influence, lol. In this light of understanding, Etruscan coming from Albanian is quite plausible too. Etruscans are free for all..., adopt a tribe guys, they feel so lonly...
Who the hell stole the Occam's razor?!

Man plz, Don't Forget plz
By the way, the puzzle of Linguistic always is solved by simmilar meaning word roots
to solve problems of dead languages is to ressurect them by roots of words, the syllabes.
so as to have meaning in similar known languages,
I am interesting in the roots, roots prove connection,


so as you see Heram root could be also Heran Ηera and Jeram Ieron
Taranis gives much weight in aspirations, while I m interesting in roots
remember JERUSALEM in Pelasgic Greek is ΙΕΡΟ-ΓΑΛΗΝΗ Jerocelen Jeroselen (holly peace) Γ Greek is C in latin and in satem languages C pronounced as S or ts
if means the same in Hebrew, then connection is established

Uni-al could be Greek c-uni-e γυνη if it is connected also with slavic Zena then Unial could be IE but from Unial to Zena with out Γυνη is far,
the Greeks God for doctor is Asclepios but a female goddess is Ιασω jaso or Yahso (healer-saves by Healing), remember Jesus or Yehsus means also savor - Healer
so roots are key,
that is why I asked Taranis about some roots, and why if you read my post I also i agree with him in origin,

I never wanted to adopted Etruscans, or another, if you read my posts then you realize what i was saying
Etruscans where never considered Greek, by ancients and by me,

the hunt for root and the transalation i try to make was not to show you that Etruscans are Greek, But was in Attic and Ionian to show you themore Pelasgic form of Greek, for me the case is closed and sure.

ty if you read it Lebrok,

Hal Fao
05-05-11, 21:32
Man plz, Don't Forget plz
By the way, the puzzle of Linguistic always is solved by simmilar meaning word roots
to solve problems of dead languages is to ressurect them by roots of words, the syllabes.
so as to have meaning in similar known languages,
I am interesting in the roots, roots prove connection, ...
That's true. Even all IE languages are but "dialects" of the same one.
Etruscans were no greeks, no albanians, no serbs, ... they were just Etruscans!
I think that Etruscan is an IE language and it relates to all IE languages. It seems to be more similar with Albanian, may be because to arrive in Italic peninsula they have passed through Thracia and Illyria (in a long period of time).
The text pasted below is taken from www.etruscan-translation.com

The Pyrgi Tablets
1 – I ta t'mia, i cac.
2 - Hera mas va, vatie χe u nial.
3 - As tres θemia sa meχ θu ta θe farie.
4 - I veli anas, s’al clu veni as tu ru ce mun i stas.
5 - Θuvas ta mer, e s’ca ilac.
6 - Ve t’ulerase nac.
7 - Ci avil, χur varte sia me Ital e ilacve!
8 - Al sase nac.
9 – A tra nes zila cal.
10 - S’e le Itala.
11 - Acna s’vers i tanim.
12 - Heramve avil.
13 - Eni, a ca pulumχva?
14 - Na cθe farie.
15 - Veli i unas θam, uc e cleva e ta nalm.
16 - Asan t’iu runi!
17 - As sel a ce?
18 - Vacal t’mial avil, χvala mu ce pulumχva s’nuiaφ.

In Gheg
1-I ta t’miat, I kac.
2-Hera masi vam vate e u nial.
3-As tre thermia sa me thu ta them pergjigjen.
4-I beni anash, s’atje ku veni as tu ru ke mun me i qendru.
5-Thuvash (thash) ta mar e s’ka ilac.
6-Dhe t’ulerase nac.
7-Ky udhtim, kur vate zia me Itale e ilacve.
8-…………………………
9-Midis (nder) nesh zjarr kall.
10-S’e le Italen.
11-Ika te pushoj tanim
12-Heramve vij.
13-Eni, a ka yje?
14-Na kthe pergjigje.
15-Berjen e asaj qe tham nuk e kreva e ta nalm.
16-Asaj t’iu runi.
17-Aq zell, a ke.
18-Vazhdimi udhetimit tim, varet mu ke e paniofura e yjeve.

In English
1-these mines, that's all.
2-early after arrival, he revived .
3-Neither but three granules just to say I'm responding.
4- Go aside for there where you are going to, you can not be safe.
5-I was going to take some healers (drugs), but there is not , .
6-And let him howl if.
7-This trip, when the hell in Italy there are no healers (drugs) there!
8 - ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..
9-Between (among) us there is fire.
10-I do not leave Italy.
11-I’m going to rest now.
12-Comin’ early.
13 - And, are there stars (what's the weather like there).
14-Give back response .
15 - The doing of what we said, I did not fulfill and to stop.
16 - Be cautious of it.
17-So much zeal, do you have?
18-Continuation of my trip depends on the unknowness of the stars.

A = 1- Interrogative particle, like a in Albanian, ex: A më dëgjon = do you hear me? or in Gheg: A thu? = really?
Acna = going, gone (first person, singular). In Albanian: ika = I’m going now.
Al, s’al = there. In Albanian: atie/atje. In Etruscan s’al, the consonant s’ has the same function as the nowadays Albanian se = because; for; compare with ital. se.
Anas = aside. In Albanian: anash = aside.
As = 1- neither (conj.) used like English neither….nor; 2- so much; as much as (adv). In Albanian: 1- as … as = neither … nor; 2- aq = as much as. Compare with English "as".
Asan = her. In Albanian: asaj = her.
Avil = journey (n&v). In Italian: viaggio. In Albanian vi/vij means: 1-come; 2- line. In Italian "via" means road, street or far; and "a" means in (on) or shows direction. Etruscan a+vil means in (on) the line (street).
Ca = has. In Albanian: ka = has.
Cac (i cac) = so much (adv.); that’s all. In Albanian: kaq = that’s all; In Gegean: i kaç = that’s all; In Etruscan: i cac = that’s all.
cal = insert, put in, turn on. In Albanian: kall (zjarrin) = to fire.
Ce = have (second person, singular). In Albanian: ke = have (second person, singular).
Ce = at. In Gheg Albanian: ke = at; in standard Albanian: te, tek =at.
Ci = this/that. In Albanian: ki/ky. In Italian: chi.
Cleva = performed, fulfilled (first person, singular). In Albanian: kreva = fulfilled, performed (first person, singular).
Clu = where. In Albanian: ku = where.
Cθe (na cθe) = give back (second person, singular, –in imperative). In Albanian: na kthe = give back to us. The same as in nowadays Albanian, when someone sends e letter to sb. and asks him to respond: na kthe pergjigje = give us response (although the sender is single).
E = and.
Eni = hence. In Gheg: eni = hence.
Farie = response. In Italian: (vario); varie = writings; different things.
he = and. In Albanian and in Italian: e = and.
Hera = early. In Albanian: hera = the time. It’s the etymology of "era" used in almost all European languages.
Heramve = soon, early. In Gheg: heramve.
Xur = when. In Albanian: kur = when.
Xvala = depends. In Albanian: varet = depends.
I = of. In Albanian: i.
Ilac = healer; drug. Survives in Turkish and in Albanian ilaç/hilaç.
Ilacve = of healers; of drugs (genitive case). In Albanian: e ilaçve/
e ilaçeve = of drugs.
Itale = Italy. In Gheg Albanian: Itale = Italy. In standard Albanian: Itali = Italy.
Itale is the feminine form of Ital (masc.), an adjective noun which means "vital".
It’s wordroot it- which in some other areas pronounced et (Arom.) or iet/jet (Alb.) means life. So, ita, eta, or ieta/jeta mean: the life.
Itala = the Italy. In Gheg: Itala. In standard Albanian: Italia.
Le = leave, let. In Albanian: le/lë = leave, let.
Mas = after. In Gehg: mas = after; In standard Albanian: mbas = after.
Me = in. In Gehg:m’/më = in.
Meh = to. In Gehg: me. Eg: me angër/me hangër = to eat.
Mer = takes. In Albanian: mer = takes.
Mia (t’mia) = mine (pron). In Albanian: t’mia/te mia = mines (pron.).
Mial = my.
Mu = just. In Albanian: mu = just
Mun = may, can. In Gheg Albanian: mun = may, can. In standard Albanian: mund = may, can.
Na = us. Proclitic and enclitic form of the Albanian personal pronoun (first person, plural). Eg: na kthe; kthena = give back (to us).
Nac = if, if you like. In Gheg Albanian: naç = if, if you like. In standard Albanian: ndaç = if you like.
Nalm = stop (first person, plural). In Gheg Albanian: nalm = stop (first person, plural); In standard Albanian: ndalim = stop (first person, plural).
Nes = us. In Albanian: nesh = us. Atra nes = between us.
Nial (u nial) = revived (third person, singular). In Gheg: u niall = revived (third person, singular); In standard Albanian: u ngjall = revived (third person, singular).
Nuiaf (n&v) = know. In Albanian: niof/njof/njoh = know (first person, singular); Etruscan: nuiaf = know (both v&n).
Pulumhva = stars. In Albanian "pullumba" means "doves".
Ru (tu ru) = 1- to guard; to keep (in memory). In Gheg Albanian: tu ru = to be safe, to guard, to keep (in memory).
Runi (tu runi) = to be safeguarded (second person, plural).
Sa = how (much). In Albanian: sa = how much.
Sase = quantity. In Albanian: sasi = quantity.
S = non-, un-, in- (prefix to express the opposite or the riverse of a proces); 2- don’t/does not (negative particle). Survives in Albanian s as a negative particle.
Eg: s’e le Itala = don’t leave the Italy (first person, singular).
Sel = zeal. In Albanian: zell = zeal.
Sia = 1- the crisis; 2- the mourning. In Albanian: zia = the mourning; the crisis.
snuiaf = 1- don’t know; (first person, singular); 2- unknown. In Albanian: s’niof/s’njof/s’njoh = don’t know (first person, singular).
The opposite of nuiaf.
Stas = stay; stand (second person, singular). This word does not survive in Albanian. It survives in almost all European languages.
Svers = rest (the opposite of vers = do, make). See vers.
T, t'iu, ta = short forms of pers. pron.
Tanim = now. In Albanian: tanime = now.
Θam = said (first person, plural). In Albanian: tham = said (first person, plural).
Θe = say (n&v).
Θemia = granules. In Albanian: thermia = granules.
Θu = say. See Cippus Perusinus on this blog. In Gheg Albanian: me thu = to say.
Θuvas = said (first person, singular). Dialectal Albanian: thuvash = said (first person, singular); In standard Albanian: thashe = said (first person, singular).
Tra = through. In Italian: tra = between, through.
Tres = three.
Tu = to.
U = in Albanian it's a short form of the pers. pron.
Uc = not. In Albanian: nuk = not. In Greek:
In Turkish: yok =
Ulerase = howl, roar. In Albanian: ulerase = howl, roar; Te ulerase = to howl (because of pains).
Unas (i unas) = of that one (fem.).
Va (v&n) = arrival (n). In Albanian: vajtje = going (n); In Italian: va = go.
Vacal = progress, continuation. In Albanian: vazhdim = continuation.
Varte = arrived, turned to be (third person, singular). In Albanian: vate = arrived; turned to be (third person, singular).
Vati = went/arrived (third person, singular). In Albanian: vajti = went/arrived (third person, singular).
Ve = and.
Veli = the doing.
Veni = go/come (second person, plural). In Albanian: veni = go/come (second person, plural).
Vers = do, make; svers = do not make (the opposite of vers).
Zila = the fire; In Albanian: ziar/ziarr = fire.

Taranis
05-05-11, 23:09
That's true. Even all IE languages are but "dialects" of the same one.
Etruscans were no greeks, no albanians, no serbs, ... they were just Etruscans!
I think that Etruscan is an IE language and it relates to all IE languages. It seems to be more similar with Albanian, may be because to arrive in Italic peninsula they have passed through Thracia and Illyria (in a long period of time).
The text pasted below is taken from www.etruscan-translation.com

The Pyrgi Tablets
1 – I ta t'mia, i cac.
2 - Hera mas va, vatie χe u nial.
3 - As tres θemia sa meχ θu ta θe farie.
4 - I veli anas, s’al clu veni as tu ru ce mun i stas.
5 - Θuvas ta mer, e s’ca ilac.
6 - Ve t’ulerase nac.
7 - Ci avil, χur varte sia me Ital e ilacve!
8 - Al sase nac.
9 – A tra nes zila cal.
10 - S’e le Itala.
11 - Acna s’vers i tanim.
12 - Heramve avil.
13 - Eni, a ca pulumχva?
14 - Na cθe farie.
15 - Veli i unas θam, uc e cleva e ta nalm.
16 - Asan t’iu runi!
17 - As sel a ce?
18 - Vacal t’mial avil, χvala mu ce pulumχva s’nuiaφ.

Without going into detail, that is nonsense, for a few simple reasons:

- First off, as mentioned, the Pyrgi tablets are a bilingual inscription, and as mentioned, one part of the inscription is in Etruscan, but the other is in Phoencian. We effortlessly read the Phoenician part of the inscription, and it's logical to assume that the Etruscan part of the inscription should have roughly the same content as the Phoenician one, even if it isn't identical word-by-word. The so-called "translation" you gave above is just gibberish that makes no real sense.

- Secondly, if you take a closer look at the Etruscan text in the Pyrgi tablets, there's dots (.) which act as word dividers. The so-called "translation" you gave from that website randomly rips apart Etruscan words and ignores these word-dividers. Especially drastically because it rips apart personal and deity names (which, as I demonstrated before, clearly appear in both texts). Occam's razor suggests that it's far, far more likely that "Astres" is the goddess Astarte than "neither three". Likewise, it makes no sense for "Thefariei Welianas" to be "Say response" "Of the doing aside" (in two different sentences, mind you), and it makes much more sense that this is the name "Tiberi Welian".

Consider that the translation I gave in the example above matches the Phoenician inscription pretty accurately in content. And as you can see from the grammatical structure, Etruscan is, without a doubt, a non-Indo-European language.

how yes no 2
06-05-11, 02:52
Now we know that Etruscans are definitely from Anatolia, and on top of it there were no Etruscans, they were Serbs with Latin influence, lol.!

you should not brag with your ignorance....

thing that Etruscans come from Lydia in Asia minor is much much much better attested than e.g the idea that Indo-Europeans speakers came from Asia to Europe and not other way around...


The Lydians have very nearly the same customs as the Hellenes, with the exception that these last do not bring up their girls the same way. So far as we have any knowledge, the Lydians were the first to introduce the use of gold and silver coin, and the first who sold good retail. They claim also the invention of all the games which are common to them with the Hellenes. These they declare that they invented about the time when they colonized Tyrrhenia , an event of which they give the following account. In the days of Atys the son of Manes, there was great scarcity through the whole land of Lydia. For some time the Lydians bore the affliction patiently, but finding that it did not pass away, they set to work to devise remedies for the evil. Various expedients were discovered by various persons: dice, knuckle-bones, and ball, and all such games were invented, except checkers, the invention of which they do not claim as theirs. The plan adopted against the famine was to engage in games one day so entirely as not to feel any craving for food, and the next day to eat and abstain from games. In this way they passed eighteen years.
Still the affliction continued, and even became worse. So the king determined to divide the nation in half, and to make the two portions draw lots, the one to stay, the other to leave the land. He would continue to reign over those whose lot it should be to remain behind; the emigrants should have his son Tyrrhenus for their leader. The lot was cast, and they who had to emigrate went down to Smyrna, and built themselves ships, in which, after they had put on board all needful stores, they sailed away in search of new homes and better sustenance. After sailing past many countries, they came to Umbria, where they built cities for themselves, and fixed their residence. Their former name of Lydians they laid aside, and called themselves after the name of the king=s son, who led the colony, Tyrrhenians.
Herodotus
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

since 18 year long hunger is not so common event in history of mankind we can even date this
1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

thus they sailed away to their new homes probably in year 1141 BC..

note that settlement from anatolia is also confirmed by genetic testing of cattle
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1614/1175.long

also by DNA testing of people
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/science/03etruscan.html

regarding splitting the tribe in two with one part staying and one living, I do not know how common is that custom, but identical thing happened with movement of Serbs from land Boiki (Bohemia) to Balkan

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false


Now we know that Etruscans are definitely from Anatolia, and on top of it there were no Etruscans, they were Serbs with Latin influence, lol.!

as for Serbs, I never claimed Etruscans were Serbs, since they are not the same neither genetically, nor linguistically.... but there are too many common points to be ignored

R1a match exactly the shape of Etruscans in Umbria
it also shows clear hole in Lydia in place from which they departed...
btw. similar holds for J2 more or less

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Etruscan_civilization_map.png/493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png


there is triple sharing of tribal names with Serbs:

1) Etruscans identified themselves as Rasenna Raśna (pronounced Rashna) while medieval Serbs used alternative tribal name Rašani (pronounced Rashani)..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia

2) Etruscans were by Greeks called Tyrrhenian, and in same Tyrrhenian was used related to name Sardis/Spard/Sard

Later, in the 6th to 5th centuries BC, the name referred specifically to the Etruscans, for whom the Tyrrhenian Sea is named, according to Strabo.[4] In Pindar,[5] the Tyrsanoi appear grouped with the Carthaginians as a threat to Magna Graecia:



"Spard" or "Sard", another name closely connected to the name Tyrrhenian, was the capital city of the land of Lydia, the original home of the Tyrrhenians; it was referred to by the Greeks as "Sardis". The name preserved by Greek and Egyptian renderings is "Sard," for the Greeks call it "Sardis" and the name appears in the Egyptian inscriptions as "Srdn."[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians

the tribal name Sard/Sparda/Saparda/Sapardu was more widely used throughout Asia
even now it is there in name of Pastun Sarbans that clearly match shape of the arc of Serian people from China to India..


The endonym Śfard (the name the Lydians called themselves) survives in bilingual and trilingual stone-carved notices of the Achaemenid Empire: the satrapy of Sparda (Old Persian), Aramaic Saparda, Babylonian Sapardu, Elamitic Išbarda.[1] These in the Greek tradition are associated with Sardis, the capital city of Gyges, constructed in the 7th century BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia

3) tribal names Serbs and Macedonians are related ... and from what Taranis has just said I can conclude that Mekh was likely yet another alternative self name of Etruscan.. my guess is that it was probably in south part of their country same as is case in Balkans with Slavic tribes who origin from Serians of Europe, and in Sheba/Sabbeans or Serians of Red sea


"Mekh" definitely isn't a [I]name, but instead really means "people" (though, alternatively, the interpretation perhaps as "citizens" would also be viable). It's often found in combination with "Rasna" (the Etruscan name for themselves - so, possibly "Etruscan people" or "Etruscan citizens").

so, based on triple relation between tribal names, based on R1a genetics, based on custom of splitting the tribe in two halfs, it is quite plausible to expect some shared vocabulary betwen Serbs/Slavs and Etruscans...


happy?

Hal Fao
06-05-11, 07:54
Without going into detail, that is nonsense, for a few simple reasons:
.....
- Secondly, if you take a closer look at the Etruscan text in the Pyrgi tablets, there's dots (.) which act as word dividers. The so-called "translation" you gave from that website randomly rips apart Etruscan words and ignores these word-dividers. Especially drastically because it rips apart personal and deity names (which, as I demonstrated before, clearly appear in both texts). Occam's razor suggests that it's far, far more likely that "Astres" is the goddess Astarte than "neither three". Likewise, it makes no sense for "Thefariei Welianas" to be "Say response" "Of the doing aside" (in two different sentences, mind you), and it makes much more sense that this is the name "Tiberi Welian".
Consider that the translation I gave in the example above matches the Phoenician inscription pretty accurately in content. And as you can see from the grammatical structure, Etruscan is, without a doubt, a non-Indo-European language.
You are right in that point. I saw, even there are about three cases which need to be revised. Anyway, I think it'll not change the general content of the text. There are strong indications for that, I'll tell you later (unfortunatly I'm too much busy now).
Thank you very much indeed.

LeBrok
06-05-11, 08:44
judging by your posts on this and similar topics perhaps you should shut up...
if you are not able to understand it, ask Taranis to compare for you the methodology used in my post with the one in starting post...


Dude, I know you are a good person, but if it comes to this subject you're ....hmmm, making a leap of faith.

Taranis methodology is deep on many levels. He knows history, cultures, archeology, languages, how they evolved in time, grammar, classifications, variate of sounds, alphabets, you name it. He is a true linguist historian. Even with his knowledge he admits often being not sure, because of lack of prove, strong connections, or relying on ancient linguists to make a right translations. On top of it he writes in very coherent and understandable way, pleasure to read. Surly, I'm aware that he might be wrong, but from all the people here he makes the most sense to me, therefore I go with his explanations.

Sorry to say how yes no, but you don't have methodology. You compare names mostly from English literature translated from different languages, often from Greek or Latin, and your favorite Jordanes who's heard the names and stories form a guy, from a guy, from a guy etc. Even if you find ancient Slavic name it's translated from Latin or Greek.

I'll give you an example how much your "methodology" can be wrong. One of most famous people in last 2 thousand years is Jesus. We all know this person and story about his life since he's times. It all happened inside roman empire, writing was known, historians existed, translation was very common.
He was a Jew, so Jesus is a Jewish name, right? It must be, it all happened in age of written history, scholars and many translates in borders of same empire. It should be true to the bone. You don't say they possibly could have the name of most known person in history wrong?!
I said many times, the life is more interesting than fiction!
Just hold to your chair. The beloved English Jesus is actually Yeshua, well again with proximity with todays phonetic English translation from todays Hebrew. Even among IE using same alphabets Jesus is phonetically, Hesus in Spanish, Yezu in Polish. Hmmm, having good written sources, and Jews still speaking Hebrew all the time, and living in every country in Europe till today, we couldn't get Jesus name right???!!! What is wrong with supposedly knowledgeable, educated and smart people translating?!
With your "methodology" you wouldn't make a connection between Jesus and Yeshua, unless you had sources linking these two. And we are not talking about obscured tribal names from regions of ancient world that weren't literate. If Jews were illiterate and Hebrew didn't survive till today, we wouldn't even knew a real name of Jesus, the god for couple of billions of people! Lol, this is something, isn't it?!
The same goes to names of ancient tribes that you eagerly compare today. We don't know how they were pronounced, we only know rough approximations, and often just bad translations, fictional stories, legends and maybe even lies.

Concluding my thought. When I've read Taranis' great written piece with good methodology this morning, and I've seen you guys jumping within 5 minutes with your linguistic materpieces..., I couldn't resist a comment. What can I say, I'm just a human with emotions.:grin:

iapetoc
06-05-11, 09:57
That's true. Even all IE languages are but "dialects" of the same one.
Etruscans were no greeks, no albanians, no serbs, ... they were just Etruscans!
I think that Etruscan is an IE language and it relates to all IE languages. It seems to be more similar with Albanian, may be because to arrive in Italic peninsula they have passed through Thracia and Illyria (in a long period of time).
The text pasted below is taken from www.etruscan-translation.com (http://www.etruscan-translation.com/)

The Pyrgi Tablets
1 – I ta t'mia, i cac.
2 - Hera mas va, vatie χe u nial.
3 - As tres θemia sa meχ θu ta θe farie.
4 - I veli anas, s’al clu veni as tu ru ce mun i stas.
5 - Θuvas ta mer, e s’ca ilac.
6 - Ve t’ulerase nac.
7 - Ci avil, χur varte sia me Ital e ilacve!
8 - Al sase nac.
9 – A tra nes zila cal.
10 - S’e le Itala.
11 - Acna s’vers i tanim.
12 - Heramve avil.
13 - Eni, a ca pulumχva?
14 - Na cθe farie.
15 - Veli i unas θam, uc e cleva e ta nalm.
16 - Asan t’iu runi!
17 - As sel a ce?
18 - Vacal t’mial avil, χvala mu ce pulumχva s’nuiaφ.

In Gheg
1-I ta t’miat, I kac.
2-Hera masi vam vate e u nial.
3-As tre thermia sa me thu ta them pergjigjen.
4-I beni anash, s’atje ku veni as tu ru ke mun me i qendru.
5-Thuvash (thash) ta mar e s’ka ilac.
6-Dhe t’ulerase nac.
7-Ky udhtim, kur vate zia me Itale e ilacve.
8-…………………………
9-Midis (nder) nesh zjarr kall.
10-S’e le Italen.
11-Ika te pushoj tanim
12-Heramve vij.
13-Eni, a ka yje?
14-Na kthe pergjigje.
15-Berjen e asaj qe tham nuk e kreva e ta nalm.
16-Asaj t’iu runi.
17-Aq zell, a ke.
18-Vazhdimi udhetimit tim, varet mu ke e paniofura e yjeve.

In English
1-these mines, that's all.
2-early after arrival, he revived .
3-Neither but three granules just to say I'm responding.
4- Go aside for there where you are going to, you can not be safe.
5-I was going to take some healers (drugs), but there is not , .
6-And let him howl if.
7-This trip, when the hell in Italy there are no healers (drugs) there!
8 - ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ... ..
9-Between (among) us there is fire.
10-I do not leave Italy.
11-I’m going to rest now.
12-Comin’ early.
13 - And, are there stars (what's the weather like there).
14-Give back response .
15 - The doing of what we said, I did not fulfill and to stop.
16 - Be cautious of it.
17-So much zeal, do you have?
18-Continuation of my trip depends on the unknowness of the stars.

A = 1- Interrogative particle, like a in Albanian, ex: A më dëgjon = do you hear me? or in Gheg: A thu? = really?
Acna = going, gone (first person, singular). In Albanian: ika = I’m going now.
Al, s’al = there. In Albanian: atie/atje. In Etruscan s’al, the consonant s’ has the same function as the nowadays Albanian se = because; for; compare with ital. se.
Anas = aside. In Albanian: anash = aside.
As = 1- neither (conj.) used like English neither….nor; 2- so much; as much as (adv). In Albanian: 1- as … as = neither … nor; 2- aq = as much as. Compare with English "as".
Asan = her. In Albanian: asaj = her.
Avil = journey (n&v). In Italian: viaggio. In Albanian vi/vij means: 1-come; 2- line. In Italian "via" means road, street or far; and "a" means in (on) or shows direction. Etruscan a+vil means in (on) the line (street).
Ca = has. In Albanian: ka = has.
Cac (i cac) = so much (adv.); that’s all. In Albanian: kaq = that’s all; In Gegean: i kaç = that’s all; In Etruscan: i cac = that’s all.
cal = insert, put in, turn on. In Albanian: kall (zjarrin) = to fire.
Ce = have (second person, singular). In Albanian: ke = have (second person, singular).
Ce = at. In Gheg Albanian: ke = at; in standard Albanian: te, tek =at.
Ci = this/that. In Albanian: ki/ky. In Italian: chi.
Cleva = performed, fulfilled (first person, singular). In Albanian: kreva = fulfilled, performed (first person, singular).
Clu = where. In Albanian: ku = where.
Cθe (na cθe) = give back (second person, singular, –in imperative). In Albanian: na kthe = give back to us. The same as in nowadays Albanian, when someone sends e letter to sb. and asks him to respond: na kthe pergjigje = give us response (although the sender is single).
E = and.
Eni = hence. In Gheg: eni = hence.
Farie = response. In Italian: (vario); varie = writings; different things.
he = and. In Albanian and in Italian: e = and.
Hera = early. In Albanian: hera = the time. It’s the etymology of "era" used in almost all European languages.
Heramve = soon, early. In Gheg: heramve.
Xur = when. In Albanian: kur = when.
Xvala = depends. In Albanian: varet = depends.
I = of. In Albanian: i.
Ilac = healer; drug. Survives in Turkish and in Albanian ilaç/hilaç.
Ilacve = of healers; of drugs (genitive case). In Albanian: e ilaçve/
e ilaçeve = of drugs.
Itale = Italy. In Gheg Albanian: Itale = Italy. In standard Albanian: Itali = Italy.
Itale is the feminine form of Ital (masc.), an adjective noun which means "vital".
It’s wordroot it- which in some other areas pronounced et (Arom.) or iet/jet (Alb.) means life. So, ita, eta, or ieta/jeta mean: the life.
Itala = the Italy. In Gheg: Itala. In standard Albanian: Italia.
Le = leave, let. In Albanian: le/lë = leave, let.
Mas = after. In Gehg: mas = after; In standard Albanian: mbas = after.
Me = in. In Gehg:m’/më = in.
Meh = to. In Gehg: me. Eg: me angër/me hangër = to eat.
Mer = takes. In Albanian: mer = takes.
Mia (t’mia) = mine (pron). In Albanian: t’mia/te mia = mines (pron.).
Mial = my.
Mu = just. In Albanian: mu = just
Mun = may, can. In Gheg Albanian: mun = may, can. In standard Albanian: mund = may, can.
Na = us. Proclitic and enclitic form of the Albanian personal pronoun (first person, plural). Eg: na kthe; kthena = give back (to us).
Nac = if, if you like. In Gheg Albanian: naç = if, if you like. In standard Albanian: ndaç = if you like.
Nalm = stop (first person, plural). In Gheg Albanian: nalm = stop (first person, plural); In standard Albanian: ndalim = stop (first person, plural).
Nes = us. In Albanian: nesh = us. Atra nes = between us.
Nial (u nial) = revived (third person, singular). In Gheg: u niall = revived (third person, singular); In standard Albanian: u ngjall = revived (third person, singular).
Nuiaf (n&v) = know. In Albanian: niof/njof/njoh = know (first person, singular); Etruscan: nuiaf = know (both v&n).
Pulumhva = stars. In Albanian "pullumba" means "doves".
Ru (tu ru) = 1- to guard; to keep (in memory). In Gheg Albanian: tu ru = to be safe, to guard, to keep (in memory).
Runi (tu runi) = to be safeguarded (second person, plural).
Sa = how (much). In Albanian: sa = how much.
Sase = quantity. In Albanian: sasi = quantity.
S = non-, un-, in- (prefix to express the opposite or the riverse of a proces); 2- don’t/does not (negative particle). Survives in Albanian s as a negative particle.
Eg: s’e le Itala = don’t leave the Italy (first person, singular).
Sel = zeal. In Albanian: zell = zeal.
Sia = 1- the crisis; 2- the mourning. In Albanian: zia = the mourning; the crisis.
snuiaf = 1- don’t know; (first person, singular); 2- unknown. In Albanian: s’niof/s’njof/s’njoh = don’t know (first person, singular).
The opposite of nuiaf.
Stas = stay; stand (second person, singular). This word does not survive in Albanian. It survives in almost all European languages.
Svers = rest (the opposite of vers = do, make). See vers.
T, t'iu, ta = short forms of pers. pron.
Tanim = now. In Albanian: tanime = now.
Θam = said (first person, plural). In Albanian: tham = said (first person, plural).
Θe = say (n&v).
Θemia = granules. In Albanian: thermia = granules.
Θu = say. See Cippus Perusinus on this blog. In Gheg Albanian: me thu = to say.
Θuvas = said (first person, singular). Dialectal Albanian: thuvash = said (first person, singular); In standard Albanian: thashe = said (first person, singular).
Tra = through. In Italian: tra = between, through.
Tres = three.
Tu = to.
U = in Albanian it's a short form of the pers. pron.
Uc = not. In Albanian: nuk = not. In Greek:
In Turkish: yok =
Ulerase = howl, roar. In Albanian: ulerase = howl, roar; Te ulerase = to howl (because of pains).
Unas (i unas) = of that one (fem.).
Va (v&n) = arrival (n). In Albanian: vajtje = going (n); In Italian: va = go.
Vacal = progress, continuation. In Albanian: vazhdim = continuation.
Varte = arrived, turned to be (third person, singular). In Albanian: vate = arrived; turned to be (third person, singular).
Vati = went/arrived (third person, singular). In Albanian: vajti = went/arrived (third person, singular).
Ve = and.
Veli = the doing.
Veni = go/come (second person, plural). In Albanian: veni = go/come (second person, plural).
Vers = do, make; svers = do not make (the opposite of vers).
Zila = the fire; In Albanian: ziar/ziarr = fire.


well seems like for some reason you deny to see the Etruscans and the Pelasgians,
I don't know why, but you even turn wrong the Lemnean stele,

I still don't understand why when the majority of Linguists trnslated the Lemnian stele different you keep give another translation,

lets see just 1 word of your translation

AVILS

is possesive case of Avis (ether avis + ale, either avi+ale + si (lockation si?or dative?))
Avis means year, not journey, not in line,

avils maχs śealχisc "and aged sixty-five" (or for 65 years -si 2nd form)

sivai avils maxs sealxisc lived for 65 years, or aged the 65 years

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnos_stele

the phainomeno to use possessive+dative is not unknown in Aegean,
Modern Greek unite them to γενικη general case
it is common to use possessive instead of dative in singular
and accusative in plural,


to understand more ,

First mention of Etruscans is as Pelasgians in Smyrna area minor asia,
then is Thessaly, from thessaly they return east to Lemnos and Lesbos as Julia said in a previus post,
one of their Kings Cadmus invades more North to Pelagonia,
His son Illyros invades Illyria,
the time of sea peoples we found a Pelasgian Branch in Italy named as Etruscans (exonym)

Pelasgians Broke to many parts, according their assimilation with others,
in Greece are assimilated with Greeks but before they Create early Minoan culture
in Italy they create Thyrrenians and later most of them unite with Romans, Today are Italians
in Illyria they were assimilated with Celts to create the Illyrians
in Palaistine they stay as pelest, and later they turn to Arab culture,

the case of Raesians of North is another story which I don't know.

now about your translations and your post,
ok if you think that Albanian language is the older or the 1rst IE or the only one that can translate ancient languages you are wrong,
First try to understand and study the ancient languages, then find the roots, then connect with Albanian, and then try to translate or give other meanings,


the number 12

heramve vij
if I translate it in rough tranlsation in modern Greek is 'εραμβε βιας'

means 'quick sew' he sew fast,

Ok quys Etruscans speak modern Greek, :cool-v:

I solve problem,

that kind of Linguist work is just for :laughing: :laughing:



lets see alluvium Greek Αλλουβιανος

Αλλουβιανες γαιες (alluvium soils, territories)

I turn alphabet to latin

Allubianes Gaies

YEAH I Translated It

Gaius Julius Agrippa was Albanian, :innocent: :innocent:


another example
Μη ρε διαταζεις ( don't give commands)
MHΡΕΔΙΑΤΑΖΕΙΣ

latin alphabet
MIREDIATAZEIS

yeah mire dite Zeus
good morning Zeus

that is kind of translation????

julia90
06-05-11, 12:08
First mention of Etruscans is as Pelasgians in Smyrna area minor asia,
then is Thessaly, from thessaly they return east to Lemnos and Lesbos as Julia said in a previus post,
one of their Kings Cadmus invades more North to Pelagonia,
His son Illyros invades Illyria,
the time of sea peoples we found a Pelasgian Branch in Italy named as Etruscans (exonym)

Pelasgians Broke to many parts, according their assimilation with others,
in Greece are assimilated with Greeks but before they Create early Minoan culture
in Italy they create Thyrrenians and later most of them unite with Romans, Today are Italians
in Illyria they were assimilated with Celts to create the Illyrians
in Palaistine they stay as pelest, and later they turn to Arab culture,

the case of Raesians of North is another story which I don't know.

Very interesting...

That i know of, Raethians were etruscans of northern italy (Po Valley) that at the arrival of celtic tribes there (Gauls: Boi, Cenomani, Carni etc..) retired on the Alps

zanipolo
06-05-11, 12:16
you should not brag with your ignorance....

thing that Etruscans come from Lydia in Asia minor is much much much better attested than e.g the idea that Indo-Europeans speakers came from Asia to Europe and not other way around...


Herodotus
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/ancient/etrucans2.html

since 18 year long hunger is not so common event in history of mankind we can even date this
1159 BC: The Hekla 3 eruption triggers an 18-year period of climatic worsening.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12th_century_BC

thus they sailed away to their new homes probably in year 1141 BC..

note that settlement from anatolia is also confirmed by genetic testing of cattle
http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1614/1175.long

also by DNA testing of people
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/03/science/03etruscan.html

regarding splitting the tribe in two with one part staying and one living, I do not know how common is that custom, but identical thing happened with movement of Serbs from land Boiki (Bohemia) to Balkan

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false



as for Serbs, I never claimed Etruscans were Serbs, since they are not the same neither genetically, nor linguistically.... but there are too many common points to be ignored

R1a match exactly the shape of Etruscans in Umbria
it also shows clear hole in Lydia in place from which they departed...
btw. similar holds for J2 more or less

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7b/R1A_map.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/87/Etruscan_civilization_map.png/493px-Etruscan_civilization_map.png


there is triple sharing of tribal names with Serbs:

1) Etruscans identified themselves as Rasenna Raśna (pronounced Rashna) while medieval Serbs used alternative tribal name Rašani (pronounced Rashani)..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_civilization
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rascia

2) Etruscans were by Greeks called Tyrrhenian, and in same Tyrrhenian was used related to name Sardis/Spard/Sard


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyrrhenians

the tribal name Sard/Sparda/Saparda/Sapardu was more widely used throughout Asia
even now it is there in name of Pastun Sarbans that clearly match shape of the arc of Serian people from China to India..


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lydia

3) tribal names Serbs and Macedonians are related ... and from what Taranis has just said I can conclude that Mekh was likely yet another alternative self name of Etruscan.. my guess is that it was probably in south part of their country same as is case in Balkans with Slavic tribes who origin from Serians of Europe, and in Sheba/Sabbeans or Serians of Red sea



so, based on triple relation between tribal names, based on R1a genetics, based on custom of splitting the tribe in two halfs, it is quite plausible to expect some shared vocabulary betwen Serbs/Slavs and Etruscans...


happy?


hmm, can you link this sardis name because it was not called sardis when the etruscans where there.
The earliest reference to Sardis is in the Persae (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/The_Persians) of Aeschylus (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Aeschylus) (472 BC (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/472_BC)); in the Iliad (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Iliad) the name Hyde seems to be given to the city of the Maeonian (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Maeonian) (i.e. Lydian) chiefs, and in later times Hyde was said to be the older name of Sardis, or the name of its citadel. It is, however, more probable that Sardis was not the original capital of the Maeonians, but that it became so amid the changes which produced the powerful Lydian empire of the 8th century BC (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/8th_century_BC) The city was captured by the Cimmerians (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Cimmerians) in the 7th century (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/7th_century_BC),

when did the etruscans move to Italy ?

IIRC, it was between 1000 - 1200 BC . If this is the case , then hyde would be sardis. Can you correct me if this is in error.

zanipolo
06-05-11, 12:27
etruscan phrases

http://www.maravot.com/Indo-European_Table.html

iapetoc
06-05-11, 13:10
I'll give you an example how much your "methodology" can be wrong. One of most famous people in last 2 thousand years is Jesus. We all know this person and story about his life since he's times. It all happened inside roman empire, writing was known, historians existed, translation was very common.
He was a Jew, so Jesus is a Jewish name, right? It must be, it all happened in age of written history, scholars and many translates in borders of same empire. It should be true to the bone. You don't say they possibly could have the name of most known person in history wrong?!
I said many times, the life is more interesting than fiction!
Just hold to your chair. The beloved English Jesus is actually Yeshua, well again with proximity with todays phonetic English translation from todays Hebrew. Even among IE using same alphabets Jesus is phonetically, Hesus in Spanish, Yezu in Polish. Hmmm, having good written sources, and Jews still speaking Hebrew all the time, and living in every country in Europe till today, we couldn't get Jesus name right???!!! What is wrong with supposedly knowledgeable, educated and smart people translating?!
With your "methodology" you wouldn't make a connection between Jesus and Yeshua, unless you had sources linking these two. And we are not talking about obscured tribal names from regions of ancient world that weren't literate. If Jews were illiterate and Hebrew didn't survive till today, we wouldn't even knew a real name of Jesus, the god for couple of billions of people! Lol, this is something, isn't it?!
The same goes to names of ancient tribes that you eagerly compare today. We don't know how they were pronounced, we only know rough approximations, and often just bad translations, fictional stories, legends and maybe even lies.


Wrong,

Ok Jesus was Jew,

but lets see, Yehsua in modern Hebrew,
that means could be also Jehsu etc, or as Λουκας say IHSOYN (jesun?)

Now how about that, Mathew 1.21 in Koine NO TRANSLATION FROM HEBREW

what he says? What Jesus name means? A savour and a Healer?

lets see Greek word for Healing salvation Iasis Ιασις,
who was daughter of Asclepius Ιασω Iēsō

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iaso

recuperation from illness Greek Iasis

so as you see LEBROK
meaning is same, sound is same, Identification of root is established,
Link was given, what else you want just to shut up PLZ

Who is older? Ieso or Jesus?

the name of jesus is written in Greek Language in Greek alphabet since 1rst century,

new testament is written in Greek Koine of Alexandreia or Hellenistic 2

so the name of jesus is ΙΗΣΟΥΝ in Greek read Λουκας 1 chapter
since I is Γιωτα ι is not j as english jesus but whi-ota and
greek η is long e is Yesun (pronounce as)

the most possible name is Yesun not Yeshua and has 1 s not 2 so probably no sh
with sort y and e as e in equal and not in economy
the ending from -n to -s is made by genitive Greek -s cause -n is only in neutral person

and Jesus is considered male not neutral

the rest is according to each other language,

result
Jesus was not Yehsua But Yesun
if I take consider that 4 vowel system of Middle East culture o does not exist in some and exist u Ου or the opposite u does exist but exists o

so if i replace u to o I have Yeson
rejecting -n to Female person is Jeso, (in other case +e Yesone)
J In Greek is Z
But I is sometimes whi so IESO

both alphabetical, Linguistic Identfication or word is done,

Jesus and Ieso-Iaso-Ιασω is the same meaning word, but in another person,
As you see Pelasgian is Connected with Ugarit as Hebrew and Aramaic,
the semitic Branch of anatolian languages,
as also in my previus post I connect Jerusalem With Greek-Pelasgian,
maybe the Book of Jehunda Tel Aviv PHD could help you


the case of the last words in cross is another subject,
cause could mean another than it is written,

there is a possibility that -n was -m in older Hebrew like Jews used to end with -m in old testament
Ps,
Lebrok If I was in your position I would just close my mouth,

i ι is γι-οτα j ζ is zi-ota ->zita

ty Lebrok cause you gave me handle to give you a link of wiki,

Besides look at your lexicon the Greek words
Ειρηνη Ηρεμια Γαληνη means same but one root does not have ιρ or ερ
salem from satem to Centum calem to Greek alphabet γαλεμ ν->μ Γαληνη
about alphabet connections search wiki,

My methodology is Correct,

Jesus was Jew But Jesus is not a Jew Name but A further ancient Ugarit or Hattians word,
It was never yehsua but Yesun, in Pelasgian of Thessaly we found that name as Jason only e to a

I dont care who is the most know, I care about who is the most ancient person word, The Ieso semi-god we found In greek or the jesun

mathew 1.21 No translation, original text, mathew was Jew

ΤΕΞΕΤΑΙ ΔΕ ΥΙΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΚΑΛΕΣΕΙΣ ΤΟ ΟΝΟΜΑ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΙΗΣΟΥΝ΄ΑΥΤΟΣ ΓΑΡ ΣΩΣΕΙ ΤΟΝ ΛΑΟΝ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΑΠΟ ΤΩΝ ΑΜΑΡΤΙΩΝ ΑΥΤΟΥ.

besides I never said that name of Jesus is wrong, or Jesus was Greek, so plz read carefully.
I gave the meaning of the name, and compare it with Pelasgian-Greek Ieso, and Indeed YOU WANT IT OR NOT, means same,
Besides all 3 names means something
EmanuEl with us GOD
Jesus savor-Healer
Christ the one that is chosen anointed , chrismation

and there are many more linguistic connctions as Noah Japheth etc.

the case of fictional stories if you ever read carefully my posts, I say when it is, or when it can be,
But seems you never read them carefully,
About lies, I am seeking Truth as Parmenides, But I can't never reject something, simply I choose the most the most close to reality, than the one which is made in Banania republic, or allien industry.

now plz go to your chair and enjoy your life, and read translations made for you,

New Testament even in English is not Translated by Hebrew, cause it was never written in Hebrew,
except Mathew who him shelf wrote to book in Both Hebrew and Greek,

how yes no 2
06-05-11, 13:25
Taranis, can we go to the next sentence in order to see whether the links I have found in the first one were completely accidental or not...




Sorry to say how yes no, but you don't have methodology. You compare names mostly from English literature translated from different languages, often from Greek or Latin, and your favorite Jordanes who's heard the names and stories form a guy, from a guy, from a guy etc. Even if you find ancient Slavic name it's translated from Latin or Greek.
...
The same goes to names of ancient tribes that you eagerly compare today. We don't know how they were pronounced, we only know rough approximations, and often just bad translations, fictional stories, legends and maybe even lies.

Concluding my thought. When I've read Taranis' great written piece with good methodology this morning, and I've seen you guys jumping within 5 minutes with your linguistic materpieces..., I couldn't resist a comment. What can I say, I'm just a human with emotions.:grin:

Taranis is very systematic, very precise, very conventional and very biased as he is protecting vision of Germanic/Celtic Europe with Slavic intruders from Asia....

My theory on this site is based on claim of Bavarian geographer (thus Germanic person) that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... I show that there is obvious relation between Zeruiani and Serians mention by Seneca... I show that Serians are most likely no other than Cimmerians... those ancient people used also tribal names related to Serb tribal name, and traces of that we can see all around Euroasia... that doesnot mean all these people were ancestors of today Serbs, it means that Serbs are small part of that group who actually kept ancient tribal name....

your problem is that you do not study anything, you do not have attitudes, you just read this forum as it is an encyclopedia.... and of course writing of Taranis that is based on scholarly knowledge and old theories appears to be holy truth to you...... but there are no holy truths in ancient history... there are only clues... and if I interpret them somewhat differently than biased Germanic school from 19th century, that doesnot mean that I am clearly wrong.... on contrary I have digged out some connections that is impossible to ignore....

another thing is that Taranis arguments are based on linguistics, and mine on genetics and continuity of tribal names used by people with same genetics... languages change... your children speak english as native language, but your grandfathers didnot... but your children will carry last name of your ancestors...that is where their identity is, where their roots are, not in their language... .same happens with nations...what is last name for person, that is tribal name for peoples......languages of nations change, sometimes dramatically...look at latin America and spread of latin languages in Europe...language that was only spoken in small village called Rome just 2500 years ago now is spread to cover big chunk of world.....that enormous scale language shift happened in historic times...and we here on the forum try to decipher much much earlier times... obvious conclusion is that linguistic is only of very limited value when it comes to origin of nations........

e.g. people of Tuscany origin from Etruscans but they now speak different language than Etruscans did... some words probably stayed though... linguistic argument that Taranis uses agains presence of early Slavs in central Europe is that obviously Celtic languages were spoken there... same argument would make people from Tuscany not related at all to Etruscans because they speak different language...and it would make French not related at all to Gauls...and it would make Mexicans not related at all to Mayas and Aztecs... and it would make most people classified as originating from native Americans of today not related to Sioux, Cherokee, Apache, Comanche and other related tribes...... proper linguistic argument is not such a high level remark... proper linguistic argument is only going into ancient inscriptions and trying to resolve them with linguistic knowledge, as Taranis does on this thread...

languages change but tribal names are identities and they often stay.. it is impossible to track distant past with superficial level of linguistic arguments (such as this tribe spoke Celtic and thus cannot be ancestors of some Slavic people) as Taranis does in most of the posts on other threads (I have to say that in this thread his arguments are solid as he does dive deep in language constructs...my view is that he is not personally interested not to allow some level of distant link between Slavic and Etruscans because it is anyway out of Germanic area of interest...he uses vague linguistic arguments only for central Europe as he wants to see Slavic people as complete intruders there) ... the reason I am sure that it is possible to trace ancient history through similarity of tribal names is that they represent identity of people... much more than languages do...

lot of offical history has built-in knowledge based on theories from 19th century ....those theories were often biased....e.g. argument that tribal names such as Veneti and Venedi are completely unrelated people is unscientific biased theory of Germanic school from 19th century whose political goal was to make Slavs intruders from Asia and in that way make basis for claim on their lands.... it is unscientific because there are no proofs of unrelatedness of tribal names except that those people probably spoke different languages and didnot consider themselves as same people at some point in time e.g. around 1 AD... but that doesnot exclude much earlier link... and I find such link in I2 genetics..

regarding this thread I am proposing here that perhaps some opf the vocabulary is shared between Serbs/Slavs and Etruscans... I have well motivated reasons why I expect that to be the case... I do expect also that some words are shared with Anatolia languages, with Greek, and Albanian (especially Tosks) ...

new theories were always attacked by mediocre minds... I do not see that Taranis in this thread attacks my post...I think he realizes same as me that some link is there...but it's hard to say how far the relation goes...


hmm, can you link this sardis name because it was not called sardis when the etruscans where there.
The earliest reference to Sardis is in the Persae (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/The_Persians) of Aeschylus (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Aeschylus) (472 BC (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/472_BC)); in the Iliad (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Iliad) the name Hyde seems to be given to the city of the Maeonian (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Maeonian) (i.e. Lydian) chiefs, and in later times Hyde was said to be the older name of Sardis, or the name of its citadel. It is, however, more probable that Sardis was not the original capital of the Maeonians, but that it became so amid the changes which produced the powerful Lydian empire of the 8th century BC (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/8th_century_BC) The city was captured by the Cimmerians (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Cimmerians) in the 7th century (http://www.wordiq.com/definition/7th_century_BC),

when did the etruscans move to Italy ?

IIRC, it was between 1000 - 1200 BC . If this is the case , then hyde would be sardis. Can you correct me if this is in error.

you have good point there...

The earliest reference to Sardis is in the The Persians of Aeschylus (472 BC); in the Iliad the name Hyde seems to be given to the city of the Maeonian (i.e. Lydian) chiefs, and in later times Hyde was said to be the older name of Sardis, or the name of its citadel. It is, however, more probable that Sardis was not the original capital of the Maeonians, but that it became so amid the changes which produced the powerful Lydian empire of the 8th century BC.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardis

btw. note that Maeonian = Lydian
I would say that indicates relation to nearby Minoans...

besides expected J2 and E-V13 on Crete especially in hilly areas we find R1a and haplogroup I
http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/05/exploring-y-chromosome-haplogroup.html

according to Sparkey that haplogroup I is almost all I2 - the one I relate to Serians / Cimmerians...
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26076-sea-peoples&p=371406&viewfull=1#post371406

iapetoc
06-05-11, 15:18
etruscan phrases

http://www.maravot.com/Indo-European_Table.html

Are you sure? it is correct?

99.99% of words are equal Latin,

the site you post if is correct just say Etruscan were latins

watch the
http://www.maravot.com/Indo-European_Table1A.1.html

all Etruscan with Latin have no difference almost,

I still don't get zanipolo, Etruscans were IE cause that is what that table I link above,
just compair the Latin with the Etruscan

simply another fake site for me,



!!!!!!!!!

Taranis
06-05-11, 17:16
Taranis is very systematic, very precise, very conventional and very biased as he is protecting vision of Germanic/Celtic Europe with Slavic intruders from Asia....

I think I have all right in the world to be feeling insulted now. :annoyed:

Seriously. "Biased?"

For the record, neither do I have a "vision" of a Germanic or Celtic Europe, nor am I "protecting" it. Also, I never, EVER stated, at any time, that the Slavic peoples were "intruders from Asia". I've been very precise about the close relationship of the Baltic and Slavic language families.


My theory on this site is based on claim of Bavarian geographer (thus Germanic person) that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... I show that there is obvious relation between Zeruiani and Serians mention by Seneca... I show that Serians are most likely no other than Cimmerians... those ancient people used also tribal names related to Serb tribal name, and traces of that we can see all around Euroasia... that doesnot mean all these people were ancestors of today Serbs, it means that Serbs are small part of that group who actually kept ancient tribal name....

Without a further word, that is just fantasy.

How the hell do you get from SERI-ans to CIMMERI-ans?!


your problem is that you do not study anything, you do not have attitudes, you just read this forum as it is an encyclopedia.... and of course writing of Taranis that is based on scholarly knowledge and old theories appears to be holy truth to you...... but there are no holy truths in ancient history... there are only clues... and if I interpret them somewhat differently than biased Germanic school from 19th century, that doesnot mean that I am clearly wrong.... on contrary I have digged out some connections that is impossible to ignore....

A "biased Germanic school of the 19th century"? :petrified: Sorry, I must disagree about that. If you're refering to Grimm's Law and to the Neogrammarian hypothesis of the "unexceptionality of sound laws", then let me remind you that this is the foundation of modern linguistics. Do you want to ditch 130+ years of reliable, proven methodology just to "prove" your "hypothesis"? Occam's Razor does not agree with you.

And actually, there is more than just clues. Various sources, be they ancient authors, be they onomastic evidence, be they modern languages (and the sound laws that gave forth these languages) - all gives a coherent image.


another thing is that Taranis arguments are based on linguistics, and mine on genetics and continuity of tribal names used by people with same genetics... languages change... your children speak english as native language, but your grandfathers didnot... but your children will carry last name of your ancestors...that is where their identity is, where their roots are, not in their language... .same happens with nations...what is last name for person, that is tribal name for peoples......languages of nations change, sometimes dramatically...look at latin America and spread of latin languages in Europe...language that was only spoken in small village called Rome just 2500 years ago now is spread to cover big chunk of world.....that enormous scale language shift happened in historic times...and we here on the forum try to decipher much much earlier times... obvious conclusion is that linguistic is only of very limited value when it comes to origin of nations........

e.g. people of Tuscany origin from Etruscans but they now speak different language than Etruscans did... some words probably stayed though... linguistic argument that Taranis uses agains presence of early Slavs in central Europe is that obviously Celtic languages were spoken there... same argument would make people from Tuscany not related at all to Etruscans because they speak different language...and it would make French not related at all to Gauls...and it would make Mexicans not related at all to Mayas and Aztecs... and it would make most people classified as originating from native Americans of today not related to Sioux, Cherokee, Apache, Comanche and other related tribes...... proper linguistic argument is not such a high level remark... proper linguistic argument is only going into ancient inscriptions and trying to resolve them with linguistic knowledge, as Taranis does on this thread...

languages change but tribal names are identities and they often stay.. it is impossible to track distant past with superficial level of linguistic arguments (such as this tribe spoke Celtic and thus cannot be ancestors of some Slavic people) as Taranis does in most of the posts on other threads (I have to say that in this thread his arguments are solid as he does dive deep in language constructs...my view is that he is not personally interested not to allow some level of distant link between Slavic and Etruscans because it is anyway out of Germanic area of interest...he uses vague linguistic arguments only for central Europe as he wants to see Slavic people as complete intruders there) ... the reason I am sure that it is possible to trace ancient history through similarity of tribal names is that they represent identity of people... much more than languages do...

lot of offical history has built-in knowledge based on theories from 19th century ....those theories were often biased....e.g. argument that tribal names such as Veneti and Venedi are completely unrelated people is unscientific biased theory of Germanic school from 19th century whose political goal was to make Slavs intruders from Asia and in that way make basis for claim on their lands.... it is unscientific because there are no proofs of unrelatedness of tribal names except that those people probably spoke different languages and didnot consider themselves as same people at some point in time e.g. around 1 AD... but that doesnot exclude much earlier link... and I find such link in I2 genetics..

You are assuming a conspiracy where there is none. On the flipside, your own "theories" are decisively worse: you randomly pick similar-sounding names, without given a thought into what language they were in, what meaning they had or might have had in that language, and randomly assign them to Y-chromosomal Haplogroups and create images of strange, undying "tribal identities" which endure time regardless of what language people speak or how their languages change. No offense, but I find that all highly implausible and highly unlikely, in particular because there's no practical way to proof your "Chromosomal Tribalism".

As said before, I didn't state that the Slavic peoples were "Intruders from Asia", but it is within the Slavic languages themselves that Common Slavic must have been spoken exceptionally late. I was going to make a separate thread about that some time in the future (similar to the Pre-Germanic and Celtic thread I did a while back), but it is not ready yet.


new theories were always attacked by mediocre minds... I do not see that Taranis in this thread attacks my post...I think he realizes same as me that some link is there...but it's hard to say how far the relation goes...

Actually, the reason, the reason I didn't reply to you was twofold:

First off, your posts, no offense, are very poorly structured and cumbersone to read, even moreso to reply to (which is, I must admit that, I also cut this reply relatively short).

Secondly, whenever I tore apart your ideas in the past, you consistently didn't even bother to take my criticism into consideration (because you have an ad-hoc opinion which you are not going to change, anyways), so this time around I didn't even bother to reply to it because, no offense, it's not worth the effort.

how yes no 2
06-05-11, 17:40
I will answer this as the rest is not worth commenting...



How the hell do you get from SERI-ans to CIMMERI-ans?!


Does this mean that now you admit Slavs origin from Serians, but still need to defend line of Serians not being same as Cimmerians?

your problem is that you want linguistic proof for everything... and you cannot have that without knowing pretty good all languages involved in chain of passing tribal name and also of recording tribal name...many languages can be involved in this process, especially on large areas...

on other hand, indications of links are pretty obvious from what we know about history....

briefly:

state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from it.... Serians of Seneca live in Europe, Caspian highlands but also as far as northwest China and Red sea....only known historic tribes that can potentially match so large spread of tribe in both Europe and Asia are Scythians, Cimmerians and Sarmatians....

Seneca claims that Serians rule over scattered Scythians, so they are clearly not Scythians...
Seneca's Serians also live among Sarmatians in Caspian highlands, so they are not Sarmatians either

besides I see Cimmerians/Serians as originally I2 people together with Veneti
and Scythians are based on ancient DNA thought to have been dominantly R1a people
while Sarmatians are in legend of origin Scythians who were intermarrying Amazones... so probably mostly R1a as well...

Cimmerians have settled in Cappadocia... that is where we find island of I2....in Strabo's time people of Cappadocia are called white Syrians

archeological findings of Thraco-Cimmerians in Europe match positions of I2 spread, and also fit well with position of later early Slavs, ...

I do not even claim that Serians are ancestors of Slavs only... note that I2 spread is also about Germanic I2b and Italic I2a1 people... I think Serians/Cimmerians might have been original Indo-Europeans... the way I see it, today Serbs are just small part of people who origin from Serians/Cimmerians, but they have kept the ancient old tribal name...Serbs also have weird saying "speak Serbian, so that the whole world understands you"....tribal name of Serbs is ancient as we find related tribal names throughout Euroasia and we can relate it mostly to haplogroup I, but also to R1a spread..... that is perhaps where link with tribal names of Etruscans come as well...

but I am here curious whether Etruscans has something in common with R1a speakers... because I suspect that R1a were originally not-IE speakers and got their IE language from I2 Cimmerians... in that case Slavic people as most R1a people should have some vocabulary and perhaps also some grammar rules shared with Etruscans...

anyway, cut the spitting and offending and shouting and putting me down..

I have my ways to find out what happened - theory of tribal names carrying identity, studying genetics and combining it with original historical records while completely ignoring official interpretations that e.g. without having any insight into genetics (and without knowing actual languages spoken by tribes) boldly claim how they are 100% sure that this and that tribal name just sound similar by accident

you have your ways - some linguistic knowledge that you often apply very vaguely (oh, there was inscription in Celtic in that area, so no Slavic speaking tribe could have lived on 200km around) and reading official history books that are just interpretations of history records that are shaped by mindset of 19th century historians that had no search engines, no access to big libraries, and were interpreting history based on bias and wild and vague guesses

and let's see next sentence from inscription....

we have here Italic, Slavic, Greek, Albanian people...
I am sure we can find many Etruscan words in combination of those vocabularies....

Taranis
06-05-11, 18:15
I will answer this as the rest is not worth commenting...

You might start contemplate it, instead of randomly insulting me.


anyway, cut the spitting and offending and shouting and putting me down..
I have my ways to find what happened, you have your ways (reading official history books shaped by mindset of 19th century historians that was interpreting history based on bias and wide guesses)

And you're doing it again. :indifferent:


and let's see next sentence from inscription....

Fine:

Thefariei Welianas sal cluwenias turuce.
Tiberius Welianas (or "Tiberius of Welian") has given (the) pleasing (of) shrine.

Thefariei (name - "Tiberius" in Latin, spelled "TBRY´" in Phoenician)
Welian (name)
-as (genitive particle)

sal (pleasing)

cluwenia (shrine)
-s (genitive particle)

turuce
Tur- (to give)
-u- (resultative particle)
-ce (imperfect particle)
(in combination "he/she/it has given")

One additional note I must make here: I'm not 100% convinced that it really reads as "Thefariei" in the Etruscan inscription. The Etruscan "F"-letter looks superficially like an "8", which can be easily mistaken with a "B" at first glance. So, indeed it might really just read "Thebariei".


we have here Italic, Slavic, Greek, Albanian people...
I am sure we can find many Etruscan words in combination of those vocabularies....

No offense, but you might as well search for Etruscan words in Quechua or Nahuatl... :laughing:

Greek is a special case, since the Greeks and Etruscans were in contact with each other, and it's certainly plausible that there are Greek borrowings into Etruscan, but the rest verymuch isn't. The Slavic languages are attested from about half a millennium after Etruscan was extinct, and Albanian is attested from almost one and a half millennia after the extinction of Etruscan, so it would be quite folly to search in either languages (or language family, in the case of the former) for any cognates.

What I wonder is, why does (almost) everybody in this thread assume that Etruscan MUST be an Indo-European language while it is very obvious that it fundamentally isn't? I mean, I demonstrated on several occasions that Etruscan has quite a few borrowings from Indo-European languages (then again, so does it from Semitic languages!), but the underlying grammatical structure and phonemic inventory is non-Indo-European.

how yes no 2
06-05-11, 18:46
Greek is a special case, since the Greeks and Etruscans were in contact with each other, and it's certainly plausible that there are Greek borrowings into Etruscan, but the rest verymuch isn't. The Slavic languages are attested from about half a millennium after Etruscan was extinct, and Albanian is attested from almost one and a half millennia after the extinction of Etruscan, so it would be quite folly to search in either languages (or language family, in the case of the former) for any cognates.

italic - because Etruscans lived among italic people and probably assimilated many... and because later Etruscans were assimilating in italic people which must have led to some words being incorporated in italian language...
Greek - as Greek are their neighbours in both Lydia and in Italy with colonies...also because Etruscans were probably related to Minoans and those were incorporated in Greeks...
Slavic - because of R1a
Serbian - because of sharing some tribal names, and because of I2a(1) of nearby Sardinains
Albanians - because of J2 component in genetics that is strong in Tosks, and also because tribal name Tosk might have same origin as Tuscany
Anatolians - because obviously Etruscans origin from Lydia in today Turkey...

language that is attested only recently might have existed much before and also may lean on many words that existed much before...


What I wonder is, why does (almost) everybody in this thread assume that Etruscan MUST be an Indo-European language while it is very obvious that it fundamentally isn't? I mean, I demonstrated on several occasions that Etruscan has quite a few borrowings from Indo-European languages (then again, so does it from Semitic languages!), but the underlying grammatical structure and phonemic inventory is non-Indo-European.

nope, thing is that all Indo-European languages also have many words that are not of Indo-European origin... I have explained above why I expect that the enumerated languages will have some words shared with Etruscans...

how yes no 2
06-05-11, 20:00
Thefariei Welianas sal cluwenias turuce.
Tiberius Welianas (or "Tiberius of Welian") has given (the) pleasing (of) shrine

in serbian:
"Tiberije Velianac salu čuveno/slavno darivaše"
would mean

Tiberius from Wellia(n) has given gift to hall/chamber in glorious way (gloriously).



Thefariei (name - "Tiberius" in Latin, spelled "TBRY´" in Phoenician)
Welian (name)
-as (genitive particle)

-ac is in Serbia
e.g. John Britanac = John from Britain
Iranac = man from Iran
Avganistanac = man from Afghanistan

man from Velia (no "w" in our alphabet, but w from above is trancsripted as "v")
would be Velianac

man from Wallonnia would be "Valonac"



sal (pleasing)

cluwenia (shrine)
-s (genitive particle)
I think you got word order wrong... Phoeniocans might have adapted word order to their language...

"sal" would map to serbian (IE word I assume) "sala" - hall, chamber

cluwenia - would map to serbian/slavic "čuveno/slavno"
čuveno" = famous
"slava" = glorious (also proposed origin of tribal name Slavic)
"slavno" = gloriously

same word is attested in Illyrian language in form
cleves- (famous)
http://www.wordgumbo.com/ie/cmp/illy.htm


in Serbian ending depends on the gender of what we talk about
čuven/slavan - when talking about masculine noun
čuveno/slavno - when talking about neuter noun
čuvena/slavna - when talking about feminine noun

but this is not about noun, but describing the verb...
"čuveno/slavno" would be used...



turuce
Tur- (to give)
-u- (resultative particle)
-ce (imperfect particle)
(in combination "he/she/it has given")

serbian
"dar" = present
"darovati" = to give present (infinitive)
"darivao"/"darovao" - perfect / simple past tense (for 3rd person singular)
"darivaše" - would be Imperfect past tense (for 3rd person singular) - it is a bit archaic form of past tense though..I would not use it in everyday speech
"daruje" - present tense

"darovaće"/"darivaće" - would be future tense (for 3rd person singular)

so, this "turuce" looks a bit as a future tense to me... or as a misspelled present tense


note that "tmia" was mapped to "dom"
and "tur" is mapped to "dar"

zanipolo
06-05-11, 22:41
Are you sure? it is correct?

99.99% of words are equal Latin,

the site you post if is correct just say Etruscan were latins

watch the
http://www.maravot.com/Indo-European_Table1A.1.html

all Etruscan with Latin have no difference almost,

I still don't get zanipolo, Etruscans were IE cause that is what that table I link above,
just compair the Latin with the Etruscan

simply another fake site for me,



!!!!!!!!!

you do realise that the etruscan lands where 20 times greater than the land of the latins, the people numbered 2M , which was 10 times more than the latins.
latin could have gathered etruscan words is more likely, because the greater the population the more your language becomes the "lingua franca" ( language of commerce)

Today english is th e"lingua franca" of the world

iapetoc
06-05-11, 23:17
you do realise that the etruscan lands where 20 times greater than the land of the latins, the people numbered 2M , which was 10 times more than the latins.
latin could have gathered etruscan words is more likely, because the greater the population the more your language becomes the "lingua franca" ( language of commerce)

Today english is th e"lingua franca" of the world


yes I do realize, but if the table is correct then what NO IE etruscan???

then Etruscan is IE

if I find connection of Etruscan with Latin 99,99% with Albanian 85% with Greek 75% with Serbian 70% with Sanshqrit (or whatever) 80% then about what semitic language of Etruscans,
ok Latins imported words from Etruscan but Sanshkrit (or whatever) from India???
Are you sure that the table i link about, from your post's link, is checked?

cause ok with latin, but with Santa clauss (or whatever) what connections had with the Etruscans, to share language of a Non IE with an IE as Sauce Kebap (or whatever) were,

whatever :rolleyes2:

zanipolo
06-05-11, 23:24
yes I do realize, but if the table is correct then what NO IE etruscan???

then Etruscan is IE

if I find connection of Etruscan with Latin 99,99% with Albanian 85% with Greek 75% with Serbian 70% with Sanshqrit (or whatever) 80% then about what semitic language of Etruscans,
ok Latins imported words from Etruscan but Sanshkrit (or whatever) from India???
Are you sure that the table i link about, from your post's link, is checked?

cause ok with latin, but with Santa clauss (or whatever) what connections had the Etruscans, to share language of a Non IE with an IE as Santa Grettans (or whatever) were,

whatever :rolleyes2:

the question you need to ask is who are the latins, where did they come from, because in ancient greek, the only language in italy was umbro-oscan. the only area the greeks called Italy ( greek word) did not include the latins, etruscans, veneti or the sicels ( sicilians)
Find who the latins are , then that will find you the etruscan language

iapetoc
06-05-11, 23:48
the question you need to ask is who are the latins, where did they come from, because in ancient greek, the only language in italy was umbro-oscan. the only area the greeks called Italy ( greek word) did not include the latins, etruscans, veneti or the sicels ( sicilians)
Find who the latins are , then that will find you the etruscan language


ok Iwil repeat my shelf,
Etruscans pass from Greece gave marks to Greek,
pass Albania gave Marks,
Lived next to Latins gave marks,

But connection of Etruscan with Sanskrit

But connection of Etruscan with Avestan & Armenian

even with Welsh and Hettit !!!!!!!!!
Then WTF Semitic non IE language !!!!

that is what i ment Zanipolo, if more than half language roots are in IE then WTF non IE language,
that is my problem, and not who converted who Latins or Etruscans.

offcourse the case of Creole language with IE but then why to compare with rest IE and not with Rest semitic,

ok maybe I am retard, But how can i quess that is correct when all the Etruscan in table is IE,
and in these thread most agree that is NO IE :confused2: :confused2:
I am interesting (personaly and believe most here in the vocabulary of early non IE Etruscans, if I have the vocabulary that today exist in Etruria then what .....

ty

zanipolo
07-05-11, 01:00
ok Iwil repeat my shelf,
Etruscans pass from Greece gave marks to Greek,
pass Albania gave Marks,
Lived next to Latins gave marks,

But connection of Etruscan with Sanskrit

But connection of Etruscan with Avestan & Armenian

even with Welsh and Hettit !!!!!!!!!
Then WTF Semitic non IE language !!!!

that is what i ment Zanipolo, if more than half language roots are in IE then WTF non IE language,
that is my problem, and not who converted who Latins or Etruscans.

offcourse the case of Creole language with IE but then why to compare with rest IE and not with Rest semitic,

ok maybe I am retard, But how can i quess that is correct when all the Etruscan in table is IE,
and in these thread most agree that is NO IE :confused2: :confused2:
I am interesting (personaly and believe most here in the vocabulary of early non IE Etruscans, if I have the vocabulary that today exist in Etruria then what .....

ty




Let us look at this logically.

The latins say they come from Aeneas and the trojans.
Actually Aeneas was a Dardanian

The trojans spoke an anatolian language - Luwian
The thracians and paphlogians spoke Luwian

Did the Maeonians ( Lydians ) , speak Luwian. If they did and they became the Etruscans and they migrated in the great migration of 1100BC to Italy, then its logical to say that both etruscan and trojan ( latins) spoke a similar anatolian language.

If its similar at that time it would be similar 500 years later.

gtcc1
07-05-11, 06:11
lets see the Greek in ancient how will be

MEGO DONASTO RETIAI

EGO EDOKA TΙ REITIA
ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ τηι Ρεiτιa ορ ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ REITΙΗι (ι is underline Dotiki)
virb Dino Διδ-ω ->Δινω = give in past e-dosa Εδωσα

the funny is that Reitia-ι takes a ι, υπογεγραμμενη Underlined ι, which is only in giving in Greek,
and today in modern is suspended

so Veneti follow part of Greek Grammar?

where has its roots?

I mean in English is give
in German is geben
in Italian is Dare
in Albanian is jap
in Serbian is дати Dati
in Bulgarian is дава Daba
in Catalunia is Donar

seems like clear IE to me the Greco-Roman but is it a proof or an evidence


Now about 100 men

how many where sea people?
how many R1a or R1b in Greece that is not later romano-celtic - latin speaking,
much of R1b is western brought by Romans, and parts of R1a could be medieval slavic or Turkish.
how many R1a in south Balkans?
yet Greeks speak IE and south slavic are connected with Baltic (although I don't agree)
how many Greeks travel with ships to establsh a colony????? (millions?)
it is estimated that many Greek colonies were established by less than 2000 men
Sinope was a small city-colony, but create Trebizond Empire
Besides Etruscans means same with troy Troia, Tyris-intha (o+y = u in Greek)
En-troy-cani ->Etroycanoi ->etrucans
means Trojer people ->tower building people, city walls people, castle people

I read a book about Delphi oracles, 14 ships estimation of about 50 population was to build Phasis in Georgia
yes only 700 people, later much more came,

how many ships had Colombus the 6th fleet? or the spanish armada?







Now about Albanians I have wrote many posts

1rst Illyria and Illyricum

for ancient Greeks Illyria is the area that later known as Illyria proprie Dicti

Pliny (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder) (23–79 AD) writes that the people that formed the nucleus of the Illyrian kingdom were 'Illyrians proper' or Illyrii Proprie Dicti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Illyrii_Proprie_ Dicti).[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria#cite_note-16) They were the Taulantii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taulantii), the Pleraei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleraei), the Endirudini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Endirudini), Sasaei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sasaei), Grabaei (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grabaei) and the Labeatae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labeatae). These later joined to form the Docleatae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Docleatae).

The roman province of Illyricum

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/69/Province_of_Illyricum.png

As you see it is not the same

about language connections of ancient Illyria

to understand that we must understand the Pelasgians,
Pelasgians were Around Aegean and cyprus, probably Anatolian or Levant,

Cadmus was the first to settle in Continent that was dwell that times by thracians (Greek Theba),

Cadmus son Illyros invade Illyria who was habited by Celts,

Pelasgian culture includes Cyclades, Minoan, Troy, pre Greek, Thyrrenian, Ionic-Athenean, Phillistines, Cyprus cultures,

Pelasgian system was city states, and mainly were Naval people,

there are 3 names of pre-Greeks the Lellekes the Pelasgians and the Driopes
the last the Driopes are considered IE

Pelasgian Gods in Greek Thogony

Pontus (sea and bottom) later remained as PUdna Πυδνα in Makedonian and Πυθμεν in Greek
while the IE word is Βυθος Buthos - Bottom
Iapetos the name of Japeth,
Erebos the dark (semitic Erebu, Illyrian Erevet)
Kawir Καβηροι
Hekate Εκατη from Egyptian Ka = soul
Hera from Pelasgian godess Eorda or Arda
Athena from Egyptian Neith
Oceanus Ωκεανος
Carnios Kreios Καρνιος Κριος
Gyges Γυγης Lydian-Anatolian name
Thaleia Θαλεια

etc

Pelasgian toponyms

Parnassus -> from pharm and -issa
Pharm in the Pelasgian ment house Parn
Parnassus means fortified houses

Thera island (warm island) simmilar Thyrrenian or comes from trojer troyan->tower city



other Pelasgian words

neo ναιω = Ι flow, ναιας a ship (remember Noah)
the IE word in Greek is pleo Πλεω flow->plow-> pleo

La the stone
Lavrys -Λαβρυς the hammer to stimulate stones
Labirynth Λαβιρυνθος the stone mine
Etruscan LA-pis

Ζεω and Ζω
Ζεω means I am warm
Zω means I am warm as an alive should be

κωνος the pyramid but also the city
Ko+no+sso = Knossos (minoan city)
Mu +ko+no = Mycenae (1 mu = Homo, the city of Humans?? 2 Mu = ομου together the city where all lived together?) or there was a tribe named My (My-cenae , My-ssian, My-Nians or Mi-noans, Moe-ssians, Ma-kedonians,)

Greek Γοης -Γοησσα (fem) desirable, very pretty, unresistable
Turkish -anat Guzzell Beautifull, fine
Italian Gusto

there are a lot of works that is connecting ancient Illyrian (part of Albanian) with Pelasgian and Homeric (non IE words)

for the Celtic Branch
Alb Mire jam = I am Fine
Eng merry I am (merry christmas etc)

alb mire dita
Eng good day

etc

But the case of Modern Albanian, is more complex,

Dienekes and modern linguistic proved that a major devastasion had happened the last 600 years,

modern Albanians are more Transylvanians
the tribe of Albocense
Maximus of Moessia was the first who found them.

for the record of Gennetics

The source for the I2a seems to be either the Albanization of people from the West Balkans and/or selection, although it would be difficult to see a massive increase in frequency in only five centuries. The I2a-deficiency of the Arbereshe also gives support to the theory that the Albanians are relatively recent arrivals from the northeast;

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2010/07/y-chromosomes-of-arbereshe-from.html


the above as also the linguistic analysis of Gustav-Mayer, Kaplan Rassuli, as also the Historic events
proves that Albanians are a new nation

Historically Illyria is not found elsewhere after Roman occupation,
later at 1040 we found Arbanites from city of Arbanon (not same with albonopolis)
and state of arber of Progon moving south from Dalmatia, and state of Alba of Anju
Anju were Cumans like Hunyadi and had origin city of Alba Lullia in Romania.
the tribe of albocense from Dacia probably moved the last 600-700 years to Illyria,

The conection of modern Albanians with other is just in written words,
modern Albanian is a SATEM language
while ancient Illyrian were Centum, even the Messapic that was adopted later in Illyria,
words like Femia are later with messapic, while words like the word for tribe, for relatives is like Greek-Pelasgic Φυλη fili
the word and simmilarity in written forms of speech is from ancient Illyrian that remained in Modern Albanian language, or from latinization of Moessia at Roman occupation time

Albocense were considered Thracians,
Even today Daci/Gaete and south slavic are not yet clear who is the Thracian language,

Georgiev-Duridanov and Rusu still argue about a latin or a slavic form of ancient Thracian,
a language that have left many words also in Greek language, (if latin-Dacian,) or is the IE branch of Greek Language (if slavic origin)

julia be carefull of Albanian Nationalists, they even claim Goliath was Albanian,

Besides Gorani-Torbesi belong to south slavic population,



I don't know what Has Kapllan Resuli done to be quoted as an expert linguist. Quoting him would just indicate you are not involved in a serious discussion.

Thanks, Bill

zanipolo
07-05-11, 13:51
Lets see the Greek in ancient how will be

MEGO DONASTO RETIAI

EGO EDOKA TΙ REITIA
ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ τηι Ρεiτιa ορ ΕΓΩ ΕΔΩΚΑ REITΙΗι (ι is underline Dotiki)
virb Dino Διδ-ω ->Δινω = give in past e-dosa Εδωσα

the funny is that Reitia-ι takes a ι, υπογεγραμμενη Underlined ι, which is only in giving in Greek,
and today in modern is suspended

so Veneti follow part of Greek Grammar?

where has its roots?

I mean in English is give
in German is geben
in Italian is Dare
in Albanian is jap
in Serbian is дати Dati
in Bulgarian is дава Daba
in Catalunia is Donar

In Venet it is Donar.......same as catulunia

to forgive is Perdonar

Whats Greek about it?

Valmir
16-05-11, 15:46
I think that Albanians are the same nation with Romanians, Beacus i have met many europeans and all of them look different but when i met some Romanians 4-5 months ago they look just like our nation, One day i heard them speaking something and they said a albanian word, Buzët, In Albanian means Lips and they said this word in Romanian , Im so suprised!

julia90
02-06-11, 02:22
I think that Albanians are the same nation with Romanians, Beacus i have met many europeans and all of them look different but when i met some Romanians 4-5 months ago they look just like our nation, One day i heard them speaking something and they said a albanian word, Buzët, In Albanian means Lips and they said this word in Romanian , Im so suprised!

Many romanians do look albanians, but it depends on the place of origins.. i don't know.. i think of albanians as more darker than romanians.. but southern romanians (non transylvanians one and non banat one as well as non near ukraine too) are quite dark.
Some albanians tend to have a more squared-robust and well defined face, many albanians ahave convex noses, as well as many romanians..
Both many albanians and many romanians could pass as italians too

Hal Fao
04-06-11, 09:52
Yes julia90, it is true that Albanians (especially those Tosk) are very similar to Italians. I have not ever been to Italy but I have met many Italians here in Tirana. To tell the truth, they differ almost not at all by the Albanians, except when speaking. I do not speak Italian and, although I have not studied this language,I am able to understand in a considerable extent, I do not know why. Italians do not understand Albanian. In my opinion, the Albanian language is more akin to the Etruscan. Albanian also stays closer to the Latin than to the Italian language. Somewhere I've read that a large part of the Tosk Albanians are Etruscans which arrived in Albania in the year 167 BC after a fierce Latin-Etruscan war. I do not know if this is true.
As you can see I’m an Etruscan born one :grin: (I’m a Tosk), but Taranis pretends to know Etruscan better than me :angry: Of course he is the best linguist (but the dumb Etruscan) of this forum :laughing:
Now, let me go and “fight” with Taranis.



… there is no evidence whatsoever that Albanian is related with "Pelasgian" (which is very hard to grasp, anyways) or with Tyrrhenian (which would be the Greek word for the Etruscans). I showed very clearly in that other thread that Etruscan was a non-Indo-European language, whereas Albanian verymuch is.
In modern Albanian there are a considerable number of ancient Greek words, especially words that linguists have considered to be Pelasgian.
On the subject of Etruscan, if it is or not an IE language, linguists are divided into two groups, on pros and cons. In fact scholars are now studying new ways of deciphering Etruscan , based mainly in modern Albanian (but also in Latin, Greek and Turkish). The result is expected to appear within a period of 2-3 years.



In my opinion, Albanian is most closest related to the Old Balkan languages (principally Dacian), but it has also borrowings from Greek and Latin.
Albanian continues to be the most less known language by the linguists. Initially it was regarded as a Roman language. Later, linguists have classified it as a special branch of IE languages which has preserved some very interesting characteristics which differs from other European languages. Even some linguists think that Albanian has imposed some of its own characteristics to some other Balkan languages (eg suffixed definite article).
For more see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language



I was always taught that the modern albanians are of dacia stock, basically vlachs.
As for skandenberg, if I recall correctly, he was of a neapolitan family called castrioti , who had ties militarily and by commerce with Naples.
Sorry, all what you've written is ridiculous. You are misinformed!
However, to understand me, I will not use this honorable forum as an efforts arena to “protect” the Albanians and their language.


Albanian has a significant number of cognates with Romanian, specifically words found exclusively in both Albanian and Romanian.
It’s quite true. But it comes against your idea (implied, ‘cause your post comes just after the above zanipolo’s post).
Albanian has a significant number of cognates with Ancient Greek and Latin too.
Words, which does not exist in modern Greek or in modern Latin languages.
Well, try to understand clearly the cause of this phenomenon (considering that Albanian is a special branch in the family of the IE languages).



Let me say this: the Etruscan language is extremely problematic (even people of Antiquity considered the presence of them problematic). There is significant evidence that the Etruscans originated in Anatolia. This is both genetic (there is evidence that Etruscan cattle must have been imported from Anatolia circa 1000-1200 BC, and there was also an article on this posted here in the forum, but I do not have the link right now), and also linguistic, but the Etruscan language in itself is problematic nonetheless.
(bolded by me)
I’ve read this post yesterday.
These are alarming ideas that clearly reflect the true reason why the Etruscan language remains a mystery. The question is that both etruscans and their language are “problematic” simply 'cause they ... came from Anatolia!
The text is quite clear!
Anyone can understand without difficulty that the mystery does not lay in the Etruscan but in it's “problematic" people … originated in Anatolia.
Mysterious is precisely the attitude towards etruscans and therefore to their language too.
So etruscans never deserve to be regarded as the founders of the Western civilization, simply ‘cause they are ... originated in Anatolia!
Sorry Taranis, but this is a pure racism. However, you may be consoled in the fact that you're not alone. This mysterious attitude twards etruscans and their language is really the "official" one, although the mystery has been "academically" transferred to the Etruscan language.
But what if the latins came from Asia Minor too?
May God forbid this hypothesis proved!

Taranis
04-06-11, 10:54
Yes julia90, it is true that Albanians (especially those Tosk) are very similar to Italians. I have not ever been to Italy but I have met many Italians here in Tirana. To tell the truth, they differ almost not at all by the Albanians, except when speaking. I do not speak Italian and, although I have not studied this language,I am able to understand in a considerable extent, I do not know why. Italians do not understand Albanian. In my opinion, the Albanian language is more akin to the Etruscan. Albanian also stays closer to the Latin than to the Italian language. Somewhere I've read that a large part of the Tosk Albanians are Etruscans which arrived in Albania in the year 167 BC after a fierce Latin-Etruscan war. I do not know if this is true.
As you can see I’m an Etruscan born one :grin: (I’m a Tosk), but Taranis pretends to know Etruscan better than me :angry: Of course he is the best linguist (but the dumb Etruscan) of this forum :laughing:
Now, let me go and “fight” with Taranis.

Where do you take that idea from that the Albanian and Etruscan languages are related? There is absolutely no evidence towards that direction. Albanian and Etruscan can in many ways, especially it's sound inventory, be no more different from each other.


In modern Albanian there are a considerable number of ancient Greek words, especially words that linguists have considered to be Pelasgian.
On the subject of Etruscan, if it is or not an IE language, linguists are divided into two groups, on pros and cons. In fact scholars are now studying new ways of deciphering Etruscan , based mainly in modern Albanian (but also in Latin, Greek and Turkish). The result is expected to appear within a period of 2-3 years.

Sorry, that concept is verymuch doomed. Just take a look at that "magical" translation of the Pyrgi tablet (which is actually extremely demonstrative of the non-Indo-European nature of the Etruscan language, because it's a bilingual text - the other language used is Phoenician, meaning we know the rough content of the Etruscan text). Also, why would anybody use Turkish?! The Turks didn't live anywhere near Italy in the 1st millennium BC - they were not even anywhere even near Anatolia until the end of the 1st millennium AD. You might as well use Quechua or Cherokee for translating Etruscan. :rolleyes2:


Albanian continues to be the most less known language by the linguists. Initially it was regarded as a Roman language. Later, linguists have classified it as a special branch of IE languages which has preserved some very interesting characteristics which differs from other European languages. Even some linguists think that Albanian has imposed some of its own characteristics to some other Balkan languages (eg suffixed definite article).
For more see: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language

The classification of Albanian as it's own branch of IE makes sense, especially because of the sound laws.


It’s quite true. But it comes against your idea (implied, ‘cause your post comes just after the above zanipolo’s post).
Albanian has a significant number of cognates with Ancient Greek and Latin too.
Words, which does not exist in modern Greek or in modern Latin languages.
Well, try to understand clearly the cause of this phenomenon (considering that Albanian is a special branch in the family of the IE languages).

It's not a contradiction at all. Obviously Romanian is also a Romance language (ie, derived from Latin), but Romanian has vocabulary which isn't found in Latin, but shared with Albanian. Since the Dacians and linguistically related groups (Moesians, Getae) lived in these areas, it stands to reason that this is the source of these words.

Regarding the Greek words, it's also clear that Proto-Albanian (if you want to call it that) must have had contact with early Greek.


(bolded by me)
I’ve read this post yesterday.
These are alarming ideas that clearly reflect the true reason why the Etruscan language remains a mystery. The question is that both etruscans and their language are “problematic” simply 'cause they ... came from Anatolia!

Actually no. If you take a look at what ancient authors thought on the Etruscans, it's quite clear that they thought the same: a language verymuch unlike the languages surrounding it (Italic, Celtic, Ligurian). It's only natural to speculate it might have come from somewhere else? I mean, there is also the possibility of the flip side, namely that Etruscan is a pre-Indo-European language which merely survived the arrival of the Indo-European languages, but evidence does not point into that direction.


The text is quite clear!
Anyone can understand without difficulty that the mystery does not lay in the Etruscan but in it's “problematic" people … originated in Anatolia.
Mysterious is precisely the attitude towards etruscans and therefore to their language too.

These ideas are not "alarming" at all, there is actually a number of evidence that pinpoints in that direction. For one, there is genetic evidence, coming, surprisingly from Etruscan cattle (http://rspb.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/274/1614/1175.short).

There is also linguistic evidence in the Etruscan language itself, specifically it's phonemic inventory. Specifically the usage of an AEIU base vowel system (as opposed to an AEIOU base vowel system), which was also used by Akkadian and Hittite. Now, the languages were obviously unrelated (Akkadian is Semitic, Hittite is Indo-European, specifically of the Anatolian branch), but one explanation is that they were apparently subject to the same areal affect. You also have to consider that Etruscan has a number of Semitic borrowings, for instance the word "Taliθa" (girl). Another very un-Indo-European feature is the fact that Etruscan does not distinguish between voiced and unvoiced plosives (ie, no distinction between B/P, D/T, G/K, respectively), though it does distinct between aspirated and unaspirated plosives (P/Ph, T/Th, K/Kh).

Another link with Anatolia is the existence of the 8-shaped letter for "F" in Etruscan, which it shares with the Lydian alphabet.


So etruscans never deserve to be regarded as the founders of the Western civilization, simply ‘cause they are ... originated in Anatolia!

I did not say that. On the contrary, it's very clear that the Romans borrowed heavily from the Etruscans, in particular culturally. By the way, I think I understand where you want to be going there: you think that Albanians should be regarded as the founders of Western Civilization. Sorry, I have to disappoint you on that ego trip. :useless:


Sorry Taranis, but this is a pure racism. However, you may be consoled in the fact that you're not alone. This mysterious attitude twards etruscans and their language is really the "official" one, although the mystery has been "academically" transferred to the Etruscan language.
But what if the latins came from Asia Minor too?
May God forbid this hypothesis proved!

Racism?! That is an insult, and you will apologize for that.

Regarding the Latins, Latin is obviously an Indo-European language, specifically of the Italic branch (other fairly-well known languages, spoken in ancient Italy before the rise of Rome, were Oscan and Umbrian), and many scholars have suggested a close relationship between the Celtic and the Italic languages - or at the least, a set of common Italo-Celtic innovations - which are absent in other branches of Indo-European.

Taranis
04-06-11, 12:36
Here is something else to show up the differences between Albanian and Etruscan, specifically the sounds which are encoded or not encoded in the alphabets. I have bolded differences (since you seem to be Albanian, you should know what sounds these encode for in Albanian):

Etruscan

Vowels - AEIU

Consonants:
Nasals - M, N
Plosives - P, Ph, T, Th, K, Kh
Affricate - Ts
Fricatives - F, S, Sh, H
Approximants - L, J, W
Rhotics - R

Albanian

Vowels - AEËIOYU

Consonants:
Nasals - M, N, Nj, Ng
Plosives - P, B, T, D, Q, Gj, K, G
Affricate - C, X, Ç, Xh
Fricatives - F, V(?), Th, Dh, S, Z, Sh, Zh, H
Approximants - L, Ll, J
Rhotics - R, RR

Note that I was merely looking at the phonology here encoded in the writing systems. I'm totally disregarding grammar here, which undoubtably shows that Etruscan was an agglutinative, non-Indo-European language. But, the key point above is, it's impossible to end up with Albanian from the Etruscan language, simply out of the phonological differences. And if there was any relationship, you have absolutely no way to explain how these changes are conditioned (consider that the underlying rule in linguistics is that sound laws have no exceptions - and if they seem to, these too are subject to sound laws).

zanipolo
11-07-11, 09:48
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3304152?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Cruciani Cavalli Sforza

Cruciani concluded that the distribution of the E3b1-alpha cluster in Europe indicates a Neolithic or post-Neolithic expansion out of the Balkans into Europe that spread as far west as the Iberian peninsula, and southeast to Turkey. STR diversity analysis gives an estimate of about 8 thousand years ago for that expansion
Nje studim tjeter: Semino: It's interesting to note that another recent study concluded that a J sub-group, J2e1 (J-M102), also expanded into Europe from the Balkans during the Neolithic period. Most likely due to genetic drift, Kosovar Albanians harbor a J2e frequency peak whereas variance maximum declines from the southeastern edge of the studied region

According to Semino: The footprint of J2e1 (M102) on the European map indicates some sort of connection between the southern Balkans and north-central Italy. One possible explanation is that J2e1 may have dispersed into Europe from the Balkans.Some of the highest frequencies that Semino et al saw for J2e1 were Albania (14.3% of total population), north-central Italy (9.6%), Greece (6.5%) Croatia etc Semino et al estimated the date of the M102 mutation at about 8000 years ago."

First of all Albanian and kosovars are the same peoples. The max frequencies of J2e are among Albanians, the some for E3b1. This 2 Haplogroupe are belived to exist there before the Roman arivals.(J2e% + E3b1a% = 16 + 45 = 61%) All this 2 haplogroup have max freq in albanians and this is a sign of distinction from slavs. In 2000 BC there have been different migration in to balkan no one can say there have ben only one haplogroup.


http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/06-02.htm

Illyrians as Dorians
Carleton S. Coon found a connection between the Illyrians and the Dorians based on his anthropological analyses of the Albanian and Montenegrin population as well as the Sfakian population in Crete. Coon discovered that Montenegro and Albania is highly concentrated Illyrian racial zone and that the Sfakians are directly descended from Doric tribes that invaded Crete from the direction of Macedonia and Illyria. Moreover, he discovered that Albanians, Montenegrins and Sfakians shared many similarities in stature, appearance, language, national costume, belligerent tendencies, tribal orders, and vendettas.

too many theories , be it illyrian with doric , illyrian with veneti or others

iapetoc
11-07-11, 12:03
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3304152?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsP anel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Cruciani Cavalli Sforza

Cruciani concluded that the distribution of the E3b1-alpha cluster in Europe indicates a Neolithic or post-Neolithic expansion out of the Balkans into Europe that spread as far west as the Iberian peninsula, and southeast to Turkey. STR diversity analysis gives an estimate of about 8 thousand years ago for that expansion
Nje studim tjeter: Semino: It's interesting to note that another recent study concluded that a J sub-group, J2e1 (J-M102), also expanded into Europe from the Balkans during the Neolithic period. Most likely due to genetic drift, Kosovar Albanians harbor a J2e frequency peak whereas variance maximum declines from the southeastern edge of the studied region

According to Semino: The footprint of J2e1 (M102) on the European map indicates some sort of connection between the southern Balkans and north-central Italy. One possible explanation is that J2e1 may have dispersed into Europe from the Balkans.Some of the highest frequencies that Semino et al saw for J2e1 were Albania (14.3% of total population), north-central Italy (9.6%), Greece (6.5%) Croatia etc Semino et al estimated the date of the M102 mutation at about 8000 years ago."

First of all Albanian and kosovars are the same peoples. The max frequencies of J2e are among Albanians, the some for E3b1. This 2 Haplogroupe are belived to exist there before the Roman arivals.(J2e% + E3b1a% = 16 + 45 = 61%) All this 2 haplogroup have max freq in albanians and this is a sign of distinction from slavs. In 2000 BC there have been different migration in to balkan no one can say there have ben only one haplogroup.


http://carnby.altervista.org/troe/06-02.htm

Illyrians as Dorians
Carleton S. Coon found a connection between the Illyrians and the Dorians based on his anthropological analyses of the Albanian and Montenegrin population as well as the Sfakian population in Crete. Coon discovered that Montenegro and Albania is highly concentrated Illyrian racial zone and that the Sfakians are directly descended from Doric tribes that invaded Crete from the direction of Macedonia and Illyria. Moreover, he discovered that Albanians, Montenegrins and Sfakians shared many similarities in stature, appearance, language, national costume, belligerent tendencies, tribal orders, and vendettas.

too many theories , be it illyrian with doric , illyrian with veneti or others


on the other hand we know that dorians came after sea people at least 300 years after Myceneans,
but we notice the mycenean culture to go North we find Myceneans tombs that go North to Epirus Albania and rich even dalmatia and Istria
some of them are older than 900 BC estimation time of Dorians whose capital was Trikke in Thessaly, and not in Illyria

Dorieis Trichakes from Tricha or Trikke

all the common that you mention can be Mycaneans that moved North

zanipolo
11-07-11, 12:27
on the other hand we know that dorians came after sea people at least 300 years after Myceneans,
but we notice the mycenean culture to go North we find Myceneans tombs that go North to Epirus Albania and rich even dalmatia and Istria
some of them are older than 900 BC estimation time of Dorians whose capital was Trikke in Thessaly, and not in Illyria

Dorieis Trichakes from Tricha or Trikke

all the common that you mention can be Mycaneans that moved North


myceaneans as far as istria can be true especially with the castellieri culture.

when did the mycaneans leave/vanish from argos area?

iapetoc
11-07-11, 12:37
myceaneans as far as istria can be true especially with the castellieri culture.

when did the mycaneans leave/vanish from argos area?

at the time of troy had even reached north Epirus

that is another as the celtic you call Illyrians and I can prove it,

zanipolo
15-07-11, 09:24
at the time of troy had even reached north Epirus

that is another as the celtic you call Illyrians and I can prove it,

I was reading Igenea on what they call genetic structure of nations ( do not know exactly what they mean ), they stipulated that genetics are grouped in racial groupings...............can anyone explain. example below of there site

Croatia:
illyrians = 34%
Slaves = 20%
Celts = 18%
Teutons = 12% .............i think this means modern germans
Phoenicians = 8%
Hellenes = 8%

Bosnia
illyrians = 40%
Slaves = 15%
Celts = 15%
Teutons = 20% .............i think this means modern germans
Huns = 6%
Thracians = 4%


Albania & Epirus
illyrians = 30%
Slaves = 20%
Thracians = 18%
Vikings = 2% .............strange that norsemen are there ( maybe norman invasion )
Phoenicians = 16%
Hellenes = 14%

zanipolo
14-08-11, 02:12
What is the difference between P-illyrian and Q-illyrian languages. All I can find is that the q-illyrian was in the north while P-illyrian was from montenegro and heading south.

has P-illyrian got greek influence? or doric or ??

Taranis
14-08-11, 02:15
What is the difference between P-illyrian and Q-illyrian languages. All I can find is that the q-illyrian was in the north while P-illyrian was from montenegro and heading south.

has P-illyrian got greek influence? or doric or ??

You are the first person to ever claim such a distinction. What evidence do you have that such a distinction can be even made from the scarce corpus of Illyrian?

iapetoc
14-08-11, 04:36
What is the difference between P-illyrian and Q-illyrian languages. All I can find is that the q-illyrian was in the north while P-illyrian was from montenegro and heading south.

has P-illyrian got greek influence? or doric or ??

the difference you make is correct, ancients Greeks call Illyrians only those south of Montenegro,
also in pliny or livy we find that,

even genetical are different populations,

for many damatians etc were not Illyrians but Illyricum,
by following Greek they were Keltoi and relative to Keltoi
non Thracian but connected to Thracian some tribes,

the difference of Q-illyrian and P-illyrian is forst time heard,

zanipolo
14-08-11, 08:59
You are the first person to ever claim such a distinction. What evidence do you have that such a distinction can be even made from the scarce corpus of Illyrian?

I cannot link for some reason, But I found this below, then I searched the net and found a book called - The celtic Encyclopedia , Volume 1 by Harry Mountain. This ALSO spoke of the P and Q illyrian

Like Pokorny and Hubschmid, I had blithely assumed that the attested Venetic language
of the Po Valley belonged with Illyrian in a "Veneto-Illyrian"
branch of Indo-European. Careful examination of the Venetic corpus
has now shown me that Venetic cannot be shoehorned into the same IE
branch as Illyrian. However, the affinities between Lusitanian and
Messapic are too striking to ignore, and the connections between
Messapic itself and the poorly known languages of Illyria proper are
clear. Therefore I must postulate an Illyro-Lusitanian branch of IE
which excludes Venetic, as explained below.

The principal Illyro-Lusitanian diagnostics are gemination of
postvocalic consonants followed by semivowels, accent generally
recessive but falling on the last syllable of the first part of a
compound noun, and monophthongization of long diphthongs. Within
this branch of Indo-European, Lusitanian retains inherited /o/ and
final /m/, while the Illyrian group changes them to /a/ and /n/.
The latter group includes Q-languages and P-languages based on the
treatment of labiovelars. Messapic and Japygian are Q-Illyrian
languages, while Macedonian in my view is a P-Illyrian language.
All these languages have merged the inherited voiced aspirates with
the simple voiced stops, and each shows some idiosyncratic secondary
developments with its consonants.

M. Durante, in "Il nome di Pesaro e l'accento iniziale in Illirico"
(AION-L 1:35-45, 1959), reconstructs a South Illyrian *luk{w}o-
'wolf' on the basis of the Paeonian (i.e. North Macedonian)
personal names <Lukkeios> and <Luppeios>, which he contrasts with
Proto-Albanian *ulk{w}o- (Alb. <ujk> 'wolf'). He regards the
etymology of the Paeonian names as certain, on the grounds that
<Lupus> and <Lupa> are common personal names in Latin inscriptions
of the Balkan peninsula, and a labiovelar can go either way. I
note, however, that a simple labiovelar would normally have
produced -k- or -p-, if not retained as -k{w}-. The (South)
Illyrian for 'wolf' must have been *lukk{w}o-, with the gemination
occurring either in Illyrian or in its parent Indo-European
language, since the PIE form itself is reconstructed as *wl.kwo-. A
similar gemination occurred independently in some Italian and
insular dialects of Late Latin. Probus prescribes "aqua non acqua",
and the futility of his prescriptivism is shown by Modern Italian
<acqua>, <acquidotto>, etc. We also have Logudorese <abba>, with
Nuorese <abbatiza> and Log. <abbaduza> from Lat. <aquatilia>, Log.
<abbagotta> 'glue' i.e. 'aqua cocta', Corsican <strakkwu> 'stranded
goods' i.e. '(bona) extra aquam', Log. <abbardzu>, Sicilian
<akkwaloru>, and Apulian <akkwara> from Lat. <aqua:rium>, <-a>, and
Sic. <akkwattsu> from Lat. <aqua:tio:> (REW 570-588).

Attic Greek <híppos> 'horse' can be regarded as an inherited reflex
of PIE *H1ek^wo- only through strained ad-hoc assumptions. It forms
both first and second elements of compound personal names. In
Macedonian, <-ippos> occurs as a second element; <Bílippos> is
Hellenized as <Phílippos>. In Epidaurian and Tarentine Greek proper
names, <-ikkos> is found. As with the Paeonian names, it is evident
that we are dealing with Q-Illyrian and P-Illyrian material. Since
Illyrian is a centum group (pace Hamp et al.), it makes no
distinction between inherited */k/ and */k^/, and reflects */k^w/
the same as */kw/, producing a geminate in intervocalic position. P-
Illyrian has /pp/, and Q-Illyrian including the Japygian extension
into Italy (with Messapic) has /kk/, Tarentine having borrowed <-
ikkos> from Messapic. Mycenaean Greek has no compound personal
names formed from 'horse', indicating this word's novelty, and the
attested forms, nom. sg. <i-qo> and gen. sg. <i-qo-jo>, show that a
labiovelar was still in use (/(h)ikk{w}os/, /(h)ikk{w}oyo/, cf. Epic
Grk. gen. <híppoio>) in the Illyrian dialect from which Mycenaean
borrowed. I see no reason to suppose that Attic-Epic <híppos>
continues the Mycenaean form, with */kk{w}/ developing into /pp/ in
Proto-Attic. More likely the Attic form is borrowed directly from
Macedonian or other P-Illyrian. The inherited Greek root likely
appears in <Epeiós> (builder of the Trojan Horse, Il. 23:665, Od.
8:493, etc.) from an extinct *epos 'horse'.

Labiovelars in word-initial position or preceded by other consonants
evidently did not undergo gemination. J. Whatmough (_Prae-Italic
Dialects_ v. 2, p. 606, 1933) regards the Messapic onomastic forms
<Penkeos> and <Penkaheh[e]> as derived from *penkwe 'five' (the
forms are genn. sgg. of an /e:w/-stem and an /ayo/-stem). Latin
<gurdus> can be explained as a loan from Lusitanian, reflecting
*gwr.H-do- (see Cyb. #59524).

J.U. Hubschmied (Vox Rom. 1:102-3) refers Lower Engadine
<gioc> 'juniper' to an Illyrian *yukk{w}o-. A protoform *yuppo- is
required by Old Upper Engadine <giop> 'id.' (see J. Hubschmid,
_Praeromanica_, p.32, 1949). Both these and some awkwardly related
words for 'juniper' in other languages can be explained if we
postulate a Western IE *yukw- which was extended in Celtic as *yuk{w}
i-, in Illyro-Lusitanian as *yukk{w}o- yielding Q-Ill. *yukko- and P-
Ill. *yuppo-, both represented in the Illyrian substrate of the East
Alps. Ligurian <jupikellos> (Diosc.) must have its first element
borrowed from Gaulish *yupi-, and the modern Alpine toponym
<Giubiasco> likewise has a Ligurian suffix on a Gaulish base, since
Ligurian did not labialize inherited */kw/. Latin <ju:niperus>, <-
i:> (f.) has evidently been altered to conform to other tree-names
from *ju:nipera 'juniper-berry-producing', from *ju:num 'juniper-
berry', from Old Lat. *juxnom < *yukw-snom.

Despite its retention of inherited /o/ and final /m/, Lusitanian
shows striking affinities to Messapic. In the inscription of Cabeço
das Fráguas, <Iccona> appears to be the name of the goddess
equivalent to the Gaulish Epona, in the dative case. Thus
Lusitanian has *ikko- from PIE *H1ek^wo- 'horse', just as Messapic
and other Q-Illyrian have *(h)ikko-. If we assume that PIE *H1e-
was reflected in Illyro-Lusitanian as *hi-, we can explain not
only 'horse' but several other words in Messapic and Lusitanian.
Mess. <hipades> is equivalent in sense to Grk. <epéthe:ke> 'placed'
(something) 'upon' (someone), in practice 'dedicated'
(something) 'to' (a deity). Mess. <hipa-> corresponds to Grk. <epi-
> if both reflect *H1ep- with different grades and extensions, <hipa-
> reflecting *H1epo- and <epi-> *H1pi-. The simple Mess. aorist
<des> 'placed', presumably /de:s/, lacks the Greek augment and
kappatic extension of <éthe:ke>, corresponding instead in form to
Epic <bê> 'went' (with augment <ébe:>), where Greek has lost the
3sg. secondary ending -t, and Messapic has apparently substituted
the primary ending -ti with assibilation to -s (for this subst. cf.
Lat. <fe:cit>, <siet> (Cato), Old Lat. <fe:ced>, <sied> with sec. -
d). Loss of initial /h/ in Lusitanian is trivial, and <ipadem> (my
correction for the v.l. <ifadem> which makes no principled sense)
can be understood as the 1sg. of the same verb, 'I dedicated' (see
my analysis of the CdF insc. in Cyb. #58889). Lus.
<indi> 'thereupon, and then' in my view represents Ill.-Lus. *hindi
from PIE *H1en-dhi, cognate with Lat. <inde>. Messapic also
has /a:/-stem datives in <-a> (presumably /-a:/ from */-a:i/, cf.
Whatmough, op. cit. p. 600), e.g. <Aprodita> in several dedicatory
inscriptions. Furthermore, Messapic regularly produces a geminate
when a consonant is followed by the palatal approximant [y] plus a
vowel; thus Mess. <Orra> on coins, Lat. <Uria>, Grk. <Ouría>, and
various gentilicia in -CCes from *-Cyos, e.g. <Platorres> nom. sg.
from *Platorios, <Blatthes> from *Blatios (Whatmough, op. cit., p.
603). In the CdF text we have <loiminna> following <Iccona>,
evidently an adjective in the fem. dat. sg. agreeing with it, very
plausibly from *loiminya:i, and <labbo> (the v.l. <laebo> is
unlikely since the following word is spelled <comaiam>) can be
understood as a neut. dat. sg. with instrumental force, earlier
*labyo:i.

I take the Lus. forms in -ai, -oi from the text of Lamas de Moledo
as nomm. pll. with short diphthongs, not datt. sgg. with long ones.

Lusitanian generalizes /o/ as the connecting vowel of compounds as
we see in <Trebopala> dat. sg. 'to the Protector of the Village' vel
sim. and *Toutopalanta:ikos 'of the People of the Palanta (river)'
extracted from Latinized Celtiberian <Toudopalandaigae> dat. sg.
(see Cyb. #58889); this vowel is apparently elided in the dat. sg.
<Trebarune>. Latin <andabata> 'gladiator who fought with an eyeless
helmet' has been etymologized as borrowed from a Gaulish compound
*andobatta 'blind beater' but the alteration is unexplained. More
likely this word is from Messapic with secondary /a/ as the
connecting vowel. The word could have reached Latin through Old
Oscan, before the assimilation of -nd- to -nn- occurred in Oscan.
Gladiatorial games came to the Romans from the Samnites.

Illyrian accent is inferred primarily from place-names and river-
names whose modern forms require an ancient accent more recessive
than that of the Latin penultimate law. In Illyria proper, Albanian
<Durrës> reflects <Dýrrachium> (although Italian <Durázzo> and
Serbian <Drac^> require a normalized <Dyrráchium>), <Drisht(i)>
reflects <Drívastum>, and <Ishm> reflects <Ísamnus>. In Messapia,
<Bríndisi> requires <Brúndisium>, <Bréntesion>, or the like (several
ancient forms occur, but the native name must have had initial
accent). In Picenum, <Pésaro> requires <Písaurum>. Durante (op.
cit.) argues that the correct name of the river upon which Pesaro
sits (now the Foglia) was <Ísaurus>, with <Písaurum> a prepositional
compound using the zero-grade *H1pi-, Ill. *pi-. He cites
<Parupion> (Geog. Rav.) and <Pasinum> (Plin.) as parallel examples,
invoking elision of *pi- to *p'-, but the Ill. combining form 'upon-
, on-' could just as well have been *p- from the unextended zero-
grade *H1p-. <Terni>, <Téramo>, and <Térmoli> require <Intéramn(i)
a>, showing that Illyrian accent was not strictly word-initial, but
immediately preceded the second element of nominal compounds. The
actual Ill. form was likely *Antérapna from *n.ter-ap-na: '(town)
between waters', the /in/ and /mn/ being Latinizations.

Turning now to Venetic we find that inherited long diphthongs are
preserved as diphthongs in dat. sg. endings, e.g. <Vhrutana.i.> 'to
Frutana', <Gra.i.ko.i.> 'to Graikos'. Inherited */kw/ remains as
such in <-kve> 'and'. Forms like <Vhugia> and <Re.i.tiia.i.> show
no evidence of /y/-induced gemination. Intervocalic */bh/ becomes -
b-, but initial */bh/ becomes f- (usually written <vh>) as in
Latin. (Indeed, Venetic treatment of voiced aspirates is so similar
to that of Latin, which is peculiar within Italic, that I am tempted
to posit a Venetic substrate for Latin. This is supported by the
names <Praeneste> and <Venetulani> (Plin.) as well as the use
of 'free ones' in the sense 'children' (Lat. <li:beri:>, Ven. dat.
pl. <louderobos>). But I digress.) The accent of <Triéste>
requires ancient <Tergéste>, and <Odérzo> requires <Opitérgium>, in
contrast to the accent of the Illyrian type (*Térgeste,
*Opítergium). Both of these are native Venetic formations based on
*terg- 'marketplace', which has been borrowed into South Slavic
(Serbian <trg> 'town square'). In Venetic inscriptions, the noun
usually written <ekupetaris> (once <ekvopetars>) 'funerary monument,
commemorative gift, memorial' vel sim. has a syncopated form <ep(p)
etaris>, indicating a secondary accent on the first, not last
syllable of the first element of a compound in Venetic. Thus
Venetic has too many differences from Illyro-Lusitanian languages to
be included in the group. Now, while Venetian <Trevíso> points to
<Tarvísium>, Friulian <Tárvis> requires <Tárvisium>. Since this is
formed like <Brúndisium>, it appears to be an Illyrian toponym whose
accent was preserved in the East Alps, but not by the Veneti who
settled on the plain later. Another indication of the priority of
Illyrian here is the river-name <Plavis>, now <Piave>. Venetic
maintains inherited /o/ and the river would have been *Plovis (from
the /o/-grade of *pleu-) if the Veneti had named it.

Latin <accipenser> 'sturgeon' (which has several variants) can be
understood with some difficulty as an indirect loan from Illyrian
through Venetic. Venetian-Paduan-Triestine <kópeze> shows that the
original accent was on the second syllable, while Vicentine-Fiuman
<kopéze> reflects a normalized Latin form with penultimate accent.
Meyer-Lübke takes the correct form as <acupe:(n)ser> (REW 129).
However, the Hellenized form <akkipé:sios> indicates that the
geminate was real. The original accent is consistent with an
Illyrian compound; borrowed into Venetic, the word would not have
been recognized as a compound, and antepenultimate accent would have
been acceptable, as in <Tarvísium>. I take the first element as
Ill. *akka 'river' from *akwa:, the second as *penser(i)s vel sim.
of undetermined origin but referring to some large animal, so that
the sturgeon was called 'river-ox' or 'river-beast' or something
similar. We might expect the connecting vowel to be secondary /a/,
since Lusitanian as we have seen generalizes /o/. The Romance forms
however demand *akku-penser(i)s. It appears that in this position
the Japygian dialect at the head of the Adriatic had /u/ before a
labial rather than secondary /a/. If my view of <andabata> is
correct, Messapic had /a/ even before a labial. H. Krahe (IF
58:143) similarly observed that Illyrian names sometimes have /u/
before a labial when secondary /a/ from */o/ is to be expected.

> In developing his theory of Alteuropäisch, Hans Krahe focused too
> much attention on suffixes, too little attention on the relation
> between root-grade and suffix, and far too little attention on the
> semantics of the complete names. His successors have offered some
> partial remediation, but to my knowledge no revision of the theory
> has been published which addresses all the problems. What I
propose
> is, of course, a radical revision. Resulting from the conflation
of
> distinct strata, the Alteuropäisch system as such is a mirage, not
> the product of a uniform Proto-Western IE as Krahe thought, much
less
> of PIE itself as W.P. Schmid insisted.

..........................................
Another site

Despite its retention of inherited /o/ and final /m/, Lusitanian
shows striking affinities to Messapic. In the inscription of Cabeço
das Fráguas, <Iccona> appears to be the name of the goddess
equivalent to the Gaulish Epona, in the dative case. Thus
Lusitanian has *ikko- from PIE *H1ek^wo- 'horse', just as Messapic
and other Q-Illyrian have *(h)ikko-. If we assume that PIE *H1e-
was reflected in Illyro-Lusitanian as *hi-, we can explain not
only 'horse' but several other words in Messapic and Lusitanian.
Mess. <hipades> is equivalent in sense to Grk. <epéthe:ke> 'placed'
(something) 'upon' (someone), in practice 'dedicated'
(something) 'to' (a deity). Mess. <hipa-> corresponds to Grk. <epi-
> if both reflect *H1ep- with different grades and extensions, <hipa-
> reflecting *H1epo- and <epi-> *H1pi-.


I will try to link inforamtion.....eupedia or my search engine might be playing up

Devils Advocate
05-11-11, 22:56
As an Albanian I must say this thread makes no sense. I'm sorry, but Albanians most probably have nothing in common with Etruscans. We are an isolated case, if I'd had to speculate, I'd say we have more in common with ancient celtic, than with Etruscan (mind that I'm speculating here).

Also do mind, you have to be VERY carefull when using words to find similiarties with other languages. There are dialects in Albanian that have words that can't be found in the standardized Albanian or in the other Albanian dialects. Sometimes the dialects differ so much that for example most Albanians in Macedonia won't understand the southern-albanian dialect known as Tosk. This also counts for dialects inside the albanian spoken in Macedonia and Kosova(known as Geg dialect). Even though they are claimed to be the same dialect there are so large differences that sometimes they can't understand eachother. I'm not talking only about simple words, but where words are placed in the sentence too. This somewhat similar to that of today's Danish and Norwegian. Even though it's easy for a Norwegian to read danish and vice-versa most Norwegians have problems understanding oral danish. Also Albanians in macedonia claim to be descendants from paeonians and others from pelasgians (I'd SPECULATE that most albanians don't know the difference between pelasgians and Paeonians, hence I'd say they are talking about the same thing). This might be a reason on the large dialect difference and usage of words here that don't exist anywhere else in the albanian lands. For example a friend of mine told me that his father told him that his grandfather (long before the communist propaganda and what historians call the Albanian National awakening) had told him again that they were descendants of pelasgians. And I seldom hear the Albanians from Macedonia talking about the Illyrians, they seem more to be attached to the dardanians and Paeonians/pelasgian descendancy. I don't claim that these are facts, but these albanians have not been subjected to any albanian or macedonian propaganda (they were outside the communist regimes reach and are even today very isolated from the Macedonians. I travelled through there and it feels like you are driving through a whole other country than macedonia). I'd say that this information has probably circulated for a long time in these communities orally, and there were ruins I'd never heard of probably due to politics(A cancer on history if you ask me).

Someone has to research the dialects very closely to even start discussing the albanian language as a whole. I don't think anyone has even looked at the albanian talked in Macedonia. There is currently a large debate exactly on this topic about the dialects of Albanian, very similar to the language conflict in Norway in the 19th century. The standardized albanian of today is not a good standard for the spoken albanian today. Why? Because a new book has just been published (few days ago actually) were documents have been researched (some granted by Russia, surprised? not actually since Enver hoxha had strong connections to Moscow at the start of his regime) where it is shown that standard albanian (the one teached in schools) is heavilly skewed towards Tosk-Albanian. Why? because standard albanian was created during the communist regime. Why is this a problem? Even though the idea behind it was good and experts from all the albanian communities tok part, Enver hoxha the dictator changed the original by for example add more words from his dialect, which is Tosk. About 70% of Albanians speak Geg-Albanian and different variation of this.

In short what I'm saying is that you base your discussion on the Albanian language and history on very little information. You go on comparing words and sentences as if albanian only has one dialect. It has infact 4 dialects that can be VERY different from eachother. Also for you interessted in this topic, look out for a large volume on albanian language/history that is to be published by some Austrians (don't remember their names). I'm hoping this will be as objective/neutral as possible.

Also there is no ill intent behind this comment, only to give you some information about the language since this is probably the only forums I've seen where serbs, greek and albanians actually discuss things instead of throwing the F-word at eachother.

Devils Advocate
05-11-11, 23:28
Also I'd like to add that I might be wrong about the relationship between etruscan and albanian (I am no scientist on language). I guess time will tell.

Taranis
06-11-11, 00:12
Also I'd like to add that I might be wrong about the relationship between etruscan and albanian (I am no scientist on language). I guess time will tell.

Well, welcome to Eupedia, Devil's Advocate.

First off, I must wholeheartedly agree when you say that this thread makes no sense. If you take a look into the posts I made in this thread, it is very obvious. I must admit that although I'm not an expert on Albanian, I can tell you that the general mainstream scientific consensus is that Albanian is an Indo-European language, whereas Etruscan is a non-Indo-European language.

julia90
06-11-11, 01:56
As an Albanian I must say this thread makes no sense. I'm sorry, but Albanians most probably have nothing in common with Etruscans. We are an isolated case, if I'd had to speculate, I'd say we have more in common with ancient celtic, than with Etruscan (mind that I'm speculating here).

Also do mind, you have to be VERY carefull when using words to find similiarties with other languages. There are dialects in Albanian that have words that can't be found in the standardized Albanian or in the other Albanian dialects. Sometimes the dialects differ so much that for example most Albanians in Macedonia won't understand the southern-albanian dialect known as Tosk. This also counts for dialects inside the albanian spoken in Macedonia and Kosova(known as Geg dialect). Even though they are claimed to be the same dialect there are so large differences that sometimes they can't understand eachother. I'm not talking only about simple words, but where words are placed in the sentence too. This somewhat similar to that of today's Danish and Norwegian. Even though it's easy for a Norwegian to read danish and vice-versa most Norwegians have problems understanding oral danish. Also Albanians in macedonia claim to be descendants from paeonians and others from pelasgians (I'd SPECULATE that most albanians don't know the difference between pelasgians and Paeonians, hence I'd say they are talking about the same thing). This might be a reason on the large dialect difference and usage of words here that don't exist anywhere else in the albanian lands. For example a friend of mine told me that his father told him that his grandfather (long before the communist propaganda and what historians call the Albanian National awakening) had told him again that they were descendants of pelasgians. And I seldom hear the Albanians from Macedonia talking about the Illyrians, they seem more to be attached to the dardanians and Paeonians/pelasgian descendancy. I don't claim that these are facts, but these albanians have not been subjected to any albanian or macedonian propaganda (they were outside the communist regimes reach and are even today very isolated from the Macedonians. I travelled through there and it feels like you are driving through a whole other country than macedonia). I'd say that this information has probably circulated for a long time in these communities orally, and there were ruins I'd never heard of probably due to politics(A cancer on history if you ask me).

Someone has to research the dialects very closely to even start discussing the albanian language as a whole. I don't think anyone has even looked at the albanian talked in Macedonia. There is currently a large debate exactly on this topic about the dialects of Albanian, very similar to the language conflict in Norway in the 19th century. The standardized albanian of today is not a good standard for the spoken albanian today. Why? Because a new book has just been published (few days ago actually) were documents have been researched (some granted by Russia, surprised? not actually since Enver hoxha had strong connections to Moscow at the start of his regime) where it is shown that standard albanian (the one teached in schools) is heavilly skewed towards Tosk-Albanian. Why? because standard albanian was created during the communist regime. Why is this a problem? Even though the idea behind it was good and experts from all the albanian communities tok part, Enver hoxha the dictator changed the original by for example add more words from his dialect, which is Tosk. About 70% of Albanians speak Geg-Albanian and different variation of this.

In short what I'm saying is that you base your discussion on the Albanian language and history on very little information. You go on comparing words and sentences as if albanian only has one dialect. It has infact 4 dialects that can be VERY different from eachother. Also for you interessted in this topic, look out for a large volume on albanian language/history that is to be published by some Austrians (don't remember their names). I'm hoping this will be as objective/neutral as possible.

Also there is no ill intent behind this comment, only to give you some information about the language since this is probably the only forums I've seen where serbs, greek and albanians actually discuss things instead of throwing the F-word at eachother.

i agree with you on the part of the traduction, thought alabanians are genetically similar with egeo-mediterranean people of south east europe, italy too, and people of northern balkans.

Alabanians, at least thosei see in italy don't look central european, at least like italians don't look central european too.

you can see it here, albanians are near southern italians, greeks, makedonians and bulgarians
5328

the balkans who can be more near to central europeans, are some bosnians, slovenians and croatians.
Serbs are like northern italians, protending more to central europe, but still southern europeans

Yetos
06-11-11, 02:04
hmmm have you ever thought that greek okeanos latin aqua and egyptian aswan might mean the same?

julia90
06-11-11, 02:05
hmmm have you ever thought that greek okeanos latin aqua and egyptian aswan might mean the same?

that's interesting, it might be a pelasgian connection

Hal Fao
07-11-11, 16:46
Well, welcome to Eupedia, Devil's Advocate.

First off, I must wholeheartedly agree when you say that this thread makes no sense. If you take a look into the posts I made in this thread, it is very obvious. I must admit that although I'm not an expert on Albanian, I can tell you that the general mainstream scientific consensus is that Albanian is an Indo-European language, whereas Etruscan is a non-Indo-European language.
It's on your right to agree or not. I would like to advise you to use more your brain than your heart (even that in a creative manner).
However, I have to accept you're lucky. You already found your own Advocate!

julia90
07-11-11, 18:50
It's on your right to agree or not. I would like to advise you to use more your brain than your heart (even that in a creative manner).
However, I have to accept you're lucky. You already found your own Advocate!


i think, some Albanian ancient tribes could be related to pelasgian people, and supposedly etruscans were of pelasgian stock too, i think that area of europe, albania, greece, fyrom, bulgaria were colinized by some pelasgian tribes

Hal Fao
07-11-11, 21:29
i think, some Albanian ancient tribes could be related to pelasgian people, and supposedly etruscans were of pelasgian stock too, i think that area of europe, albania, greece, fyrom, bulgaria were colinized by some pelasgian tribes
It is quite true. I think that the center of pelasgian civilization may have been Atlanta. Then pelasgians spread over the Mediterranean (northern Africa, Asia Minor, the Balkans, Italy,etc.). Pelasgians were the true founders of human civilization. Pelasgian man excelled job and creativity, appreciated life more, had developed the feeling of love despite the aggression. The only "art" that could not recognize, was the war. He spread the knowledge which unfortunately became the weapon with which masters of aggression killed Pelasgian civilization.

Taranis
07-11-11, 21:39
It is quite true. I think that the center of pelasgian civilization may have been Atlanta. Then pelasgians spread over the Mediterranean (northern Africa, Asia Minor, the Balkans, Italy,etc.). Pelasgians were the true founders of human civilization. Pelasgian man excelled job and creativity, appreciated life more, had developed the feeling of love despite the aggression. The only "art" that could not recognize, was the war. He spread the knowledge which unfortunately became the weapon with which masters of aggression killed Pelasgian civilization.

Sorry, no. That is just pure fantasy.

zanipolo
07-11-11, 22:05
Sorry, no. That is just pure fantasy.

while on atlantis, recently digs around southern Spain, I think it was called dodona ( andulusian lands) is calimed by scientists to be "atlantis" .:grin:

Devils Advocate
08-11-11, 20:54
It's on your right to agree or not. I would like to advise you to use more your brain than your heart (even that in a creative manner).
However, I have to accept you're lucky. You already found your own Advocate!


You need to check what my name(Devil's advocate) means my fellow albanian ;)
from wiki "In common parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument, takes a position he or she does not necessarily agree with, just for the sake of argument. In taking such position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position. It can also refer (less commonly) to someone who takes a stance that is seen as unpopular or unconventional, but is actually another way of arguing a more conventional stance"

I'm just pointing out that you can't conclude on, probably, anything, we can discuss, but given the relative low access on information we can't really conclude on anything. The Albanian languange and culture has been hidden for a long time, which means two things. 1) books written by other balkan authors are usually biased due to nationalism and 2) The questions will be answered through archeology, since the Illyrians didn't have a written culture. People need to be in addition carefull on basing arguments on books written by people who have never been in Albania or albanian lands. Our culture can not be described by any religion. It is totally different from the Turkish one, and it has in common with the serbian culture as what the Norwegians have in common with the Japanese culture, which is absolutelly nothing. I suggest anyone who is interessted in our language and culture to read books on our folklore and mythologies, you'll often find very interesting things there that can be linked to earlier balkanic cultures.

Also new books are steadily being published on this matter, I'm actually writting a paper on the Illyrians where I'll try and provide new point of views on certain historic events.

Btw I'm no linguist, can someone show me how the Albanian language is an Indo-European language, on what criteria is this decision based on.

Taranis
08-11-11, 22:03
Btw I'm no linguist, can someone show me how the Albanian language is an Indo-European language, on what criteria is this decision based on.

It's very hard to elaborate this shortly, but, Albanian has numerous words which are cognates with PIE and which are shifted according to specific Albanian sound laws. The most obvious feature about Albanian that reveals it's Indo-European nature are it's numerals. The Indo-European languages as a whole are extremely conservative when it comes to numerals, and you can readily compare Albanian numerals with those in other IE languages. There is also similar grammatical structure.

zanipolo
24-11-11, 08:48
I recently came across this site, I am unsure of its accuracy, but its nicely simplified

http://website-tools.net/google-keyword/site/indoeuro.bizland.com

http://indoeuro.bizland.com/project/chron/chron0.html

Franco
26-11-11, 02:35
It is quite true. I think that the center of pelasgian civilization may have been Atlanta. Then pelasgians spread over the Mediterranean (northern Africa, Asia Minor, the Balkans, Italy,etc.). Pelasgians were the true founders of human civilization.

I thought it was the Sumerians.

binx
21-03-12, 22:33
Etruscan Language traducted by an albanian expert in langauges and history


Is he really an expert in languages and history? This translation is completely wrong.

binx
21-03-12, 22:54
However, not being likely is not the same as not being possible... some time ago, I was also intrigued by tribal name of Tosks resembling Tuscany... and there are somewhat ellevated levels of J2 and R1a YDNA haplogroups in both Tuscany and in Tosk Albanians (not in Ghegs)... So, I do not deny possibility for genetical and perhaps even to some extent linguistic relationships between two areas... btw. there are also interesting attempts to link Etruscan to Finno-Ugric languages...

As i told you in an older message, there is no connection between Toskë and Tuscans.

The names Tuscany, Tuscans, Etruscans derive form Latin word tuscus (probably from TUR, a root of Anatolian or Lydian origin. Greek Tursenoi/Tyrsēnoi/Tyrrēnoi, English Tyrrhens). Tuscus is not an Etruscan word, it's an exonym. Etruscans called themselves Rasna or Rasenna, not Tusci.

The Albanian name Tosk is an exonym (Albanian toskë) and it was borrowed from Italian (through the Venetian?) tosko or tosco that means "rough, crude", the same of Spanish adjective of Latin origin "Tosco" that means "crude, rough, coarse; raw; uncouth; clumsy". Italian and Spanish "Tosco" derive from Latin Tuscus and had two different meanings, although both share same root. The first meaning, the original one, is "Tuscan" (Etruscan-Tuscan); the second meaning, a later born meaning, is "rude" because of the disreputable character of the inhabitants of the Vicus Tuscus, that was an Etruscan Street in ancient Rome, but not more inhabited by Etruscans. The second meaning is perfectly preserved in Spanish and it's the right etimology of Albanian Tosk.

zanipolo
22-03-12, 08:28
As i told you in an older message, there is no connection between Toskë and Tuscans.

The names Tuscany, Tuscans, Etruscans derive form Latin word tuscus (probably from TUR, a root of Anatolian or Lydian origin. Greek Tursenoi/Tyrsēnoi/Tyrrēnoi, English Tyrrhens). Tuscus is not an Etruscan word, it's an exonym. Etruscans called themselves Rasna or Rasenna, not Tusci.

The Albanian name Tosk is an exonym (Albanian toskë) and it was borrowed from Italian (through the Venetian?) tosko or tosco that means "rough, crude", the same of Spanish adjective of Latin origin "Tosco" that means "crude, rough, coarse; raw; uncouth; clumsy". Italian and Spanish "Tosco" derive from Latin Tuscus and had two different meanings, although both share same root. The first meaning, the original one, is "Tuscan" (Etruscan-Tuscan); the second meaning, a later born meaning, is "rude" because of the disreputable character of the inhabitants of the Vicus Tuscus, that was an Etruscan Street in ancient Rome, but not more inhabited by Etruscans. The second meaning is perfectly preserved in Spanish and it's the right etimology of Albanian Tosk.

tosco is not venetian, there is no such word , be it modern or ancient, the words similare are:
tos = cough
torza = blasphemy
etrosco = ancient venetic for etruscan

crude or rough = greve,grue

what you refer to is Dante who resided in Ravenna at the time , toying with local picene language, words ( north or south ), with the word tosco. Romagnola dialect.

he said
non pomi v'eran, ma stecchi con tosco ............which means

no apples where there, but thorns with poison

In italian it would be ( correct me if I am wrong ) no mele era li, mah rami con veleno

In venetian it would be ..........no pomi era la, ma spini con beverin ( or sometimes velen , depends on poison )

raw in venetian is either bek or cru depending if its food or not

binx
22-03-12, 12:34
First, Venetian is a language of Latin origin, even if it's quite different from Italian. Venetian and Italian belong to Romance languages, like French and Spanish; as you should know. Venetians wrote official documents using a mix of Venetian, Latin and Italian (Tuscan). But this is not the point.

I haven't said that Tosco is a pure Venetian word. Tosco is Italian, Spanish, it's a Romance word. And the word tosco derived from Latin tuscus (Umbrian Truscum, Greek Tursenoi) has two different meanings ("Tuscan" and "rude") that share the same root but they were originated in different times and different context. The first meaning is the name of Etruscans (from archaic and classic Latin). The second one was originated much time later in the Vulgar Latin from vicus tuscus, a street in Ancient Rome, at the beginning inhabited by Etruscans. This particular meaning is still alive in Spanish tosco.

Then, there is another word tosco (with the meaning of "poison") but this word is derived from Greek toxicon, that means exactly "poison".

Romagnola? What are you talking about? Why are you reinventing the history of Italian literature? Dante wrote in Tuscan, even if he was in exile in Ravenna. Dante used tosco with two meanings and two different root: tosco derived from Latin tuscus that means "Etruscan" or "modern Tuscans", and the word tosco with the meaning of poison derived form Greek toxicon that means "poison"!

The point is that Albanian word Tosk is a Romance borrowing, it's an EXONYM! The northern Albanians (Gegh) called the southern ones Tosk. This world is surely borrowed from a Romance language with the meaning of "rude". There is no cultural or ethnic connection between Tosk and Tuscans, as there aren't real connections between Albanian and Etruscan language!

Etruscan is agglutinative and probably related to Hurro-Urartian as a part of an Alarodian phylum, together with Northern Caucasian. While Albanian derives from a Paleo-Balkan language. They haven't even a common lexicon!

Taranis
22-03-12, 12:52
Etruscan is agglutinative and probably related to Hurro-Urartian as a part of an Alarodian phylum, together with Northern Caucasian. While Albanian derives from a Paleo-Balkan language. They haven't even a common lexicon!

I have my doubts about the validity of the so-called "Alarodian" languages. However, I agree that a relationship between Etruscan and any one of Caucasian language families (in particular Northeast Caucasian, the language family that includes Chechen) has been discussed.

binx
22-03-12, 12:58
Thank you. You're right, it has been discussed but not already proved.

I guess that you agree with me that there is no relationship between Albanian and Etruscan.

zanipolo
23-03-12, 07:44
First, Venetian is a language of Latin origin, even if it's quite different from Italian. Venetian and Italian belong to Romance languages, like French and Spanish; as you should know. Venetians wrote official documents using a mix of Venetian, Latin and Italian (Tuscan). But this is not the point.

I haven't said that Tosco is a pure Venetian word. Tosco is Italian, Spanish, it's a Romance word. And the word tosco derived from Latin tuscus (Umbrian Truscum, Greek Tursenoi) has two different meanings ("Tuscan" and "rude") that share the same root but they were originated in different times and different context. The first meaning is the name of Etruscans (from archaic and classic Latin). The second one was originated much time later in the Vulgar Latin from vicus tuscus, a street in Ancient Rome, at the beginning inhabited by Etruscans. This particular meaning is still alive in Spanish tosco.

Then, there is another word tosco (with the meaning of "poison") but this word is derived from Greek toxicon, that means exactly "poison".

Romagnola? What are you talking about? Why are you reinventing the history of Italian literature? Dante wrote in Tuscan, even if he was in exile in Ravenna. Dante used tosco with two meanings and two different root: tosco derived from Latin tuscus that means "Etruscan" or "modern Tuscans", and the word tosco with the meaning of poison derived form Greek toxicon that means "poison"!

The point is that Albanian word Tosk is a Romance borrowing, it's an EXONYM! The northern Albanians (Gegh) called the southern ones Tosk. This world is surely borrowed from a Romance language with the meaning of "rude". There is no cultural or ethnic connection between Tosk and Tuscans, as there aren't real connections between Albanian and Etruscan language!

Etruscan is agglutinative and probably related to Hurro-Urartian as a part of an Alarodian phylum, together with Northern Caucasian. While Albanian derives from a Paleo-Balkan language. They haven't even a common lexicon!

I found this tosco word yesterday it derived from Latin word....Vicus Tuscas which the spanish converted to Tosco.
It means vulgar

On Dante, he did not speak tuscan as there was no tuscan, he spoke Florentine and not the other tuscan languages of lucchese or siennese or any others.
Florentine and lucchese are still spoken in their relative areas. Actually my auntie can speak lucchese as she married a man from Lucca.

binx
23-03-12, 12:57
On Dante, he did not speak tuscan as there was no tuscan, he spoke Florentine and not the other tuscan languages of lucchese or siennese or any others.
Florentine and lucchese are still spoken in their relative areas. Actually my auntie can speak lucchese as she married a man from Lucca.

Tosco (meaning "rude") is STILL preserved in Spanish. But Tosco (meaning "rude") was originated in Vulgar Latin from Vicus Tuscus in the late Roman Empire. Tuscus meaning "rude" is Vulgar Latin, afterwards Tosco became a ROMANCE word. While Tuscus meaning "Etruscan" is Early Latin or Archaic Latin. Do you really understand what i mean? I guess no.

Please, what are you still talking about? Medieval Tuscan didn't exist??? Medieval Florentine is just a variety of medieval Tuscan language, we are talking about varietes of one language, not about separated languages. As we all should know, Florentine became the prominent variety in Tuscany. But there were few differences among all varietes, especially in written language.

Medieval Pisan was also a Tuscan language. Corsica was under Pisan influence in early medieval times. Corsican language is considered a Romance language derived from medieval Tuscan. So Pisans didn't speak or write Tuscan? Before Dante was born, a Tuscan language already existed! Tuscany was an autonomous and political entity in Etruscan times (Etruria), Roman Times (Etruria region), in Lombard-Longobards times (Ducato di Tuscia, capital was Lucca), Carolingian times (Margraviate of Tuscany, capital was still Lucca)... March of Tuscany ended around 1000 A.D. when Ugo the great died in Pistoia. Ugo has moved the capital in late period from Lucca to Firenze.

Dante Alighieri (born in Florence), Francesco Petrarca (born in Arezzo), Giovanni Boccaccio (born in Certaldo, Valdelsa), Guittone d'Arezzo (born in Arezzo), Cecco Angiolieri (born in Siena) are all Tuscan writers or poets.

Lucchese, Senese, Pisano, Aretino, Fiorentino, Livornese are the MODERN variants, you are making a lot of confusion. Modern Tuscan is divided into three varieties with minor differences among them:

Northern-Eastern Tuscan dialects: Fiorentino, Pratese, Pistoiese. Someone call them simply "florentine".
Northern-Western dialects: Pisano-Livornese, Lucchese, Versiliese.
Southern Tuscan dialects: Senese, Grossetano, Aretino, Aretino-Chianaiolo.

Then there are "Valdelsano", a transitional dialect between Fiorentino and Senese, "Volterrano" a transitional dialect between Pisan and Senese with many elements from Fiorentino, and other transitional dialects. But they are all modern Tuscan varieties, of a unique language.

binx
23-03-12, 13:01
i agree with you on the part of the traduction, thought alabanians are genetically similar with egeo-mediterranean people of south east europe, italy too, and people of northern balkans.

Alabanians, at least thosei see in italy don't look central european, at least like italians don't look central european too.

you can see it here, albanians are near southern italians, greeks, makedonians and bulgarians
5328

the balkans who can be more near to central europeans, are some bosnians, slovenians and croatians.
Serbs are like northern italians, protending more to central europe, but still southern europeans

Julia90, i start thinking that you are not really from Tuscany. Albanians genetically are more similar to some Greek population and to some southern Italians, but Tuscans are more similar to northern Italians.

Yetos
23-03-12, 15:28
Well let me me inform you all that the word Tosk exist in some Greek sur-names,
in Arvanto-Vlachs, Moschopolis becomes Tokas
and in Moesian-Vlachs becomes Tositsas (Tosic)
while it does not exist in Kutsuk-Vlachs

julia90
23-03-12, 19:32
he spoke Florentine and not the other tuscan languages of lucchese or siennese or any others.
Florentine and lucchese are still spoken in their relative areas. Actually my auntie can speak lucchese as she married a man from Lucca.

well, but Lucchese and Fiorentino, i can tell you have very slight different intonation, someone from another region outside tuscany would say they are the same accent and wouldn't tell apart them

julia90
23-03-12, 19:36
Please, what are you still talking about? Medieval Tuscan didn't exist??? Medieval Florentine is just a variety of medieval Tuscan language, we are talking about varietes of one language, not about separated languages. As we all should know, Florentine became the prominent variety in Tuscany. But there were few differences among all varietes, especially in written language.

Medieval Pisan was also a Tuscan language. Corsica was under Pisan influence in early medieval times. Corsican language is considered a Romance language derived from medieval Tuscan. So Pisans didn't speak or write Tuscan? Before Dante was born, a Tuscan language already existed! Tuscany was an autonomous and political entity in Etruscan times (Etruria), Roman Times (Etruria region), in Lombard-Longobards times (Ducato di Tuscia, capital was Lucca), Carolingian times (Margraviate of Tuscany, capital was still Lucca)... March of Tuscany ended around 1000 A.D. when Ugo the great died in Pistoia. Ugo has moved the capital in late period from Lucca to Firenze.

Dante Alighieri (born in Florence), Francesco Petrarca (born in Arezzo), Giovanni Boccaccio (born in Certaldo, Valdelsa), Guittone d'Arezzo (born in Arezzo), Cecco Angiolieri (born in Siena) are all Tuscan writers or poets.

Lucchese, Senese, Pisano, Aretino, Fiorentino, Livornese are the MODERN variants, you are making a lot of confusion. Modern Tuscan is divided into three varieties with minor differences among them:

Northern-Eastern Tuscan dialects: Fiorentino, Pratese, Pistoiese. Someone call them simply "florentine".
Northern-Western dialects: Pisano-Livornese, Lucchese, Versiliese.
Southern Tuscan dialects: Senese, Grossetano, Aretino, Aretino-Chianaiolo.

Then there are "Valdelsano", a transitional dialect between Fiorentino and Senese, "Volterrano" a transitional dialect between Pisan and Senese with many elements from Fiorentino, and other transitional dialects. But they are all modern Tuscan varieties, of a unique language.

I would put senese under the same intonation of florentine, it has very slight subtle differences, someone says they speak with a kind of "mannerism" and kindness, if compared expecially with pratese, that is rude on mannerism

julia90
23-03-12, 19:38
Julia90, i start thinking that you are not really from Tuscany. Albanians genetically are more similar to some Greek population and to some southern Italians, but Tuscans are more similar to northern Italians.

well, i would say that jenerally i can recognize well albanians here in italy, but they fit well at least here in tuscany and in all italy.
Might i ask you if you have tuscan origins? Maybe you are corsican.
I find your posts quite useful, in the pat of the tosco ancient meaning

zanipolo
23-03-12, 23:38
Tosco (meaning "rude") is STILL preserved in Spanish. But Tosco (meaning "rude") was originated in Vulgar Latin from Vicus Tuscus in the late Roman Empire. Tuscus meaning "rude" is Vulgar Latin, afterwards Tosco became a ROMANCE word. While Tuscus meaning "Etruscan" is Early Latin or Archaic Latin. Do you really understand what i mean? I guess no.

Please, what are you still talking about? Medieval Tuscan didn't exist??? Medieval Florentine is just a variety of medieval Tuscan language, we are talking about varietes of one language, not about separated languages. As we all should know, Florentine became the prominent variety in Tuscany. But there were few differences among all varietes, especially in written language.



we agree on tosco, either rude or vulgar matters little, its not what others say in regards to albanian tosk.

Romangnola language - Dante wrote ( Ca' de Ven' " [the 'house of wine' in Romagnola dialect])

http://italian.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=italian&cdn=education&tm=15&f=10&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//sergiodirio.altervista.org/gugol/
google in Romagnola-Bolognese language

http://italian.about.com/gi/o.htm?zi=1/XJ&zTi=1&sdn=italian&cdn=education&tm=90&f=10&tt=14&bt=1&bts=1&zu=http%3A//www.comune.bologna.it/bulgnais/

Il sito de "Al Tréb dal Tridèl" CENACOLO DI CULTURA DIALETTALE FERRARESE

http://italian.about.com/od/emilianoromagnolo/a/aa102809a.htm


all bracketed under Romagnola

Yetos
24-03-12, 02:49
we agree on tosco, either rude or vulgar matters little, its not what others say in regards to albanian tosk.


Interesting so the name Tosca the famous Opera is about a rude girl? :grin:



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x9ePgCnLyg8&amp;feature=related :good_job:

Hal Fao
24-03-12, 11:37
As i told you in an older message, there is no connection between Toskë and Tuscans.
The names Tuscany, Tuscans, Etruscans derive form Latin word tuscus (probably from TUR, a root of Anatolian or Lydian origin. Greek Tursenoi/Tyrsēnoi/Tyrrēnoi, English Tyrrhens). Tuscus is not an Etruscan word, it's an exonym. Etruscans called themselves Rasna or Rasenna, not Tusci.
The Albanian name Tosk is an exonym (Albanian toskë) and it was borrowed from Italian (through the Venetian?) tosko or tosco that means "rough, crude", the same of Spanish adjective of Latin origin "Tosco" that means "crude, rough, coarse; raw; uncouth; clumsy". Italian and Spanish "Tosco" derive from Latin Tuscus and had two different meanings, although both share same root. The first meaning, the original one, is "Tuscan" (Etruscan-Tuscan);
In my opinion, Latin “Tuscus” is borrowed from Pelasgian (Etruscan) “Tusc” that means “oak”; in modern Albanian “dushk” (oak) and in modern Greek “δρυς” (oak). The “Tusc” was considered a Holy Tree and worshiped by pelasgians, that’s why they’re called Tuscan (whose wordroot survives in modern Albanian dushk) or “Etruscan” (whose wordroot survives in modern Greek δρυς).
Remember the Dodona’s Holy Oak.
Because of them, this tree has been worshiped by some other peoples too.

Yetos
24-03-12, 11:49
In my opinion, Latin “Tuscus” is borrowed from Pelasgian (Etruscan) “Tusc” that means “oak”; in modern Albanian “dushk” (oak) and in modern Greek “δρυς” (oak). The “Tusc” was considered a Holy Tree and worshiped by pelasgians, that’s why they’re called Tuscan (whose wordroot survives in modern Albanian dushk) or “Etruscan” (whose wordroot survives in modern Greek δρυς).
Remember the Dodona’s Holy Oak.
Because of them, this tree has been worshiped by some other peoples too.

I think that δρυς religion as Zeus holy tree etc is clear IE and maybe is connected with Driopes people (druids)
a clear IE tribe,
if we connect Etruscans with IE then the whole connection with Pelasgians collapse

Taranis
24-03-12, 11:51
In my opinion, Latin “Tuscus” is borrowed from Pelasgian (Etruscan) “Tusc” that means “oak”; in modern Albanian “dushk” (oak) and in modern Greek “δρυς” (oak). The “Tusc” was considered a Holy Tree and worshiped by pelasgians, that’s why they’re called Tuscan (whose wordroot survives in modern Albanian dushk) or “Etruscan” (whose wordroot survives in modern Greek δρυς).
Remember the Dodona’s Holy Oak.
Because of them, this tree has been worshiped by some other peoples too.

Hal Fao, stop posting your ridiculous nationalist fantasies about the Etruscans and Pelasgians. I've warned you before: you're seriously running out of time now.

Greek "drus" is clearly Indo-European and has cognates in other branches:

Celtic: "druid" (Proto-Celtic *druwits), Old Irish "dair", Welsh "dar" (which both mean "oak")

Latin "durus" (hard)

Germanic: English "tree"

Albanian "dru"

Slavic: Russian "derevo" ("tree")

Indo-Iranic: Sanskrit "daru" ("timber", "wood").

This is clearly a different from "Tusci"/"Etrusci". The so-called 'etymologies' and "magic dismantlements" that you have posted here in the past have no sort of regularity behind them and they do not stand up to scientific scrutiny. They only serve one goal: to paint (and spread) your own revisionist fantasy image about the Albanian language and about the Albanians as the 'true founders of civilization'. There is no room for such an agenda here on Eupedia.

binx
27-03-12, 02:59
Romangnola language - Dante wrote ( Ca' de Ven' " [the 'house of wine' in Romagnola dialect])


Romagnolo, not Romagnola. Dialect is masculine in Italian. In Italian: dialetto Romagnolo. Romagnolo dialect.

Please, can you tell me the exact Divina Commedia's canto where Dante writes "Ca' de Ven"?

zanipolo
27-03-12, 07:14
Romagnolo, not Romagnola. Dialect is masculine in Italian. In Italian: dialetto Romagnolo. Romagnolo dialect.

Please, can you tell me the exact Divina Commedia's canto where Dante writes "Ca' de Ven"?

Actually the correct term is Romagnol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romagnol_language

people call it what they like , like the book below
http://books.google.com.au/books/about/Toponomastica_romagnola.html?id=6wZZAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

Italians , like all the other races that annex another race/tribe/culture convert names of people towns, history etc etc

They even convert meanings of words of writers like Dante in his word of Bordelo, which as he wrote and in the venetian language means, uproar, noisy and not what later Italians converted to mean a brothel.
How can you even find the truth in all this nationalistic propaganda.?

Nightwishh
27-03-12, 13:30
there are was good work !

binx
28-03-12, 11:26
Actually the correct term is Romagnol

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romagnol_language

people call it what they like , like the book below
http://books.google.com.au/books/about/Toponomastica_romagnola.html?id=6wZZAAAAMAAJ&redir_esc=y

Italians , like all the other races that annex another race/tribe/culture convert names of people towns, history etc etc

They even convert meanings of words of writers like Dante in his word of Bordelo, which as he wrote and in the venetian language means, uproar, noisy and not what later Italians converted to mean a brothel.
How can you even find the truth in all this nationalistic propaganda.?

Zanipolo, what are you still talking about? I'm FRENCH, and i'm studying Romance languages, Italian and Spanish Literature and Culture! Nationalistic propaganda? Are YOU so sure not be influenced by Venetian propaganda or Liga Veneta or Lega Nord propaganda?

I invite you to show REAL and NEUTRAL sources to support your Unscientific Statements.


Romagnolo is Italian. Can you read Italian?
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_romagnolo

Just some questions. What's your real mother tongue? English? Where have you studied? In Australia? Are you the son or grandson of Venet immigrants in Australia?

binx
28-03-12, 11:37
In my opinion, Latin “Tuscus” is borrowed from Pelasgian (Etruscan) “Tusc” that means “oak”; in modern Albanian “dushk” (oak) and in modern Greek “δρυς” (oak). The “Tusc” was considered a Holy Tree and worshiped by pelasgians, that’s why they’re called Tuscan (whose wordroot survives in modern Albanian dushk) or “Etruscan” (whose wordroot survives in modern Greek δρυς).
Remember the Dodona’s Holy Oak.
Because of them, this tree has been worshiped by some other peoples too.

This is Pan-Albanism, pure Albanian nationalistic propaganda.

zanipolo
28-03-12, 11:50
Zanipolo, what are you still talking about? I'm FRENCH, and i'm studying Romance languages, Italian and Spanish Literature and Culture! Nationalistic propaganda? Are YOU so sure not be influenced by Venetian propaganda or Liga Veneta or Lega Nord propaganda?

I invite you to show REAL and NEUTRAL sources to support your Unscientific Statements.


Romagnolo is Italian. Can you read Italian?
http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dialetto_romagnolo

Just some questions. What's your real mother tongue? English? Where have you studied? In Australia? Are you the son or grandson of Venet immigrants in Australia?

you seem to be one the likes to dispense with minor languages, not I, I prefer to keep every language/dialect viable in the world.

Did you find the dante word of bordelo, you will see the meaning is not what it is today.
to get the correct terminology of a language or place or people or surnames you go to the root , the original and not replace it with something else

http://www.oleanderpress.com/index.php/shopping-cart?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage.tpl&product_id=129&category_id=15&vmcchk=1

your link is clearly bias in the italian way of it being spelt. italians add vowels to everything, it was a way to create a language which was never created by the people in a natural way. It also was the last language to emerge in Italy

So, cease this or I will get my cousin in Toulouse to bombard you linguistically with l'oc ............lol


answer me this to see what kind of person you are...
would you agree to allow, breton, savoryard, l'oc, basque, provenzal etc etc to be taught in their respective areas in schools.

EDIT - the international linguistic codes and name below

Romagnol (Language code 'rgn')

ISO Language Code:
rgn


ISO Language Name:
Romagnol

binx
28-03-12, 12:34
Well let me me inform you all that the word Tosk exist in some Greek sur-names,
in Arvanto-Vlachs, Moschopolis becomes Tokas
and in Moesian-Vlachs becomes Tositsas (Tosic)
while it does not exist in Kutsuk-Vlachs

Well. Tokas, Tositsas and Tosic are words of different origins.

Tosk is also a rare German and Scandinavian surname. Tosk in norwegian means "fool".

Yetos
28-03-12, 14:48
Well. Tokas, Tositsas and Tosic are words of different origins.

Tosk is also a rare German and Scandinavian surname. Tosk in norwegian means "fool".

Yes But I do not think that Surnames of Arvanto-Vlachs and Moesian vlachs have to do with Norwegian 'fool'
while in kutsuk-Vlachs who have nothing to do with the 2 above areas does not exist

the only case is only if the word passed from the Normandoi of sicily and taranto to area of Albania,


I don't know the etymology of the word Tosk, simply I am mention it to prove that word exist as what? tribe name? toponym-origin name? job name?

Hal Fao
29-03-12, 10:18
In my opinion, Latin “Tuscus” is borrowed from Pelasgian (Etruscan) “Tusc” that means “oak”; in modern Albanian “dushk” (oak) and in modern Greek “δρυς” (oak). The “Tusc” was considered a Holy Tree and worshiped by pelasgians, that’s why they’re called Tuscan (whose wordroot survives in modern Albanian dushk) or “Etruscan” (whose wordroot survives in modern Greek δρυς).
Remember the Dodona’s Holy Oak.
Because of them, this tree has been worshiped by some other peoples too.
This is Pan-Albanism, pure Albanian nationalistic propaganda.
Here is the “right” etymology of “Tosc”:


the second meaning, a later born meaning, is "rude" because of the disreputable character of the inhabitants of the Vicus Tuscus, that was an Etruscan Street in ancient Rome, but not more inhabited by Etruscans. The second meaning is perfectly preserved in Spanish and it's the right etimology of Albanian Tosk.
(bolded by me)
May be Taranis agrees with your “right” etymology and thinks it ‘stands up to scientific scrutiny’ (he has not opposed it yet, neither has he warned you).


Greek "drus" is clearly Indo-European and has cognates in other branches:
Celtic: "druid" (Proto-Celtic *druwits), Old Irish "dair", Welsh "dar" (which both mean "oak")
Latin "durus" (hard)
Germanic: English "tree"
Albanian "dru"
Slavic: Russian "derevo" ("tree")
Indo-Iranic: Sanskrit "daru" ("timber", "wood").
May be you’ve forgotten (or is it intentional?) to add that all these words come from PIE *dru-.
In addition I’d like to point out there’re many other words which came up ‘cause of religious PIE *dru-.
Here are some of them:
O.E. triewe (W.Saxon) "faithful, trustworthy”
P.Gmc. *trewwjaz "having or characterized by good faith"
Ger. Treu “true”
Goth. triggws "faithful, trusty"
Lith. drutas "firm”
O.Ir. derb "sure”
Alb. Tru “brain/s”; trush “of brains”
Engl. True, truth, trust.
All these meanings came up because of religious *dru-; even the fact that these words begin generally with “t” (instead of PIE *d), shows the Pelasgian (Etruscan) impact on Europian languages. Even “Troy” may be of the same etymology.
See also http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=true&allowed_in_frame=0

Taranis
29-03-12, 10:37
May be you’ve forgotten (or is it intentional?) to add that all these words come from PIE *dru-.
In addition I’d like to point out there’re many other words which came up ‘cause of religious PIE *dru-.

I omitted them because I was focusing on the semantic meaning of "tree"/"wood".


Here are some of them:
O.E. triewe (W.Saxon) "faithful, trustworthy”
P.Gmc. *trewwjaz "having or characterized by good faith"
Ger. Treu “true”
Goth. triggws "faithful, trusty"
Engl. True, truth, trust.

Lith. drutas "firm”
O.Ir. derb "sure”
If you compare this list, and if you compare this with the list I have posted...


Greek "drus" is clearly Indo-European and has cognates in other branches:

Celtic: "druid" (Proto-Celtic *druwits), Old Irish "dair", Welsh "dar" (which both mean "oak")

Latin "durus" (hard)

Germanic: English "tree"

Albanian "dru"

Slavic: Russian "derevo" ("tree")

Indo-Iranic: Sanskrit "daru" ("timber", "wood").


All these meanings came up because of religious *dru-; even the fact that these words begin generally with “t” (instead of PIE *d), shows the Pelasgian (Etruscan) impact on Europian languages.

...you will notice that only in the Germanic languages (Anglo-Saxon, English, Gothic, etc.) there is a *t, in all other branches of IE this is reflected as *d. There is a *t in Germanic because PIE *d is reflected as *t into Germanic, thanks to Grimm's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Germanic_sound_shift). All your bewildering fantasies about a "Pelgasian" loanword are completely unnecessary, and you're lying into your own face when you state that these words "generally begin with *t" (since that really only applies to Germanic).

And now let's take a look at this:


Alb. Tru “brain/s”; trush “of brains”

Since PIE *d is reflected as *d into Albanian (we established that earlier with "dru"), the most probable explanation is that this is a Germanic loanword.

Hal Fao
29-03-12, 17:50
Alb. Tru “brain/s”; trush “of brains”
And now let's take a look at this:
Since PIE *d is reflected as *d into Albanian (we established that earlier with "dru"), the most probable explanation is that this is a Germanic loanword.
There’re other Albanian words which cognate to PIE *dru- , one of them (the most important one relating to that case) is truall (tru/al) that means “land”.
Do you think it’s a Germanic loanword too?

Taranis
30-03-12, 12:41
There’re other Albanian words which cognate to PIE *dru- , one of them (the most important one relating to that case) is truall (tru/al) that means “land”.
Do you think it’s a Germanic loanword too?

Why should this be of the same root? It has a completely different semantic meaning. My opinion is that "truall" is a cognate with Latin "terra" and English "thirst".

Hal Fao
30-03-12, 17:16
Why should this be of the same root? It has a completely different semantic meaning. My opinion is that "truall" is a cognate with Latin "terra" and English "thirst".
As a matter of fact, Albanian “truall” means “a useful land” for building the house and the orchard (or garden) around it. As a general term it means “a useful land”.
The plural of “truall”/tru:all/ is “troye”/tro:je/.
My opinion is that the first meaning of “tru-al” has been “orchard” or any other term relating with “tree” (PIE *dru-).

Taranis
30-03-12, 17:35
As a matter of fact, Albanian “truall” means “a useful land” for building the house and the orchard (or garden) around it. As a general term it means “a useful land”.
The plural of “truall”/tru:all/ is “troye”/tro:je/.
My opinion is that the first meaning of “tru-al” has been “orchard” or any other term relating with “tree” (PIE *dru-).

Then you're completely wrong, because it would require that such a thing as sound laws would be non-existent. When a sound change happens, this happens across the entire vocabulary of a language, and without exceptions. If there's apparent exceptions, these are either enforced by their own sets of rules (Verner's Law in the Germanic languages is a good example of that), or it is because a word is a loanword (meaning the word entered the language after the sound change happened). There are no exceptions from the above.

The best example (for you, anyways) is if you compare Gheg and Tosk dialects. You will notice that the differences are always regularly and across the board. This is also a perfect example to debunk your silly idea that Albanian is purportedly unchanged since prehistoric times: the fact dialects exist shows that Albanian has changed. It's also a perfect question for you: which dialect is closer to the original condition in Albanian? Gheg? Or Tosk?

zanipolo
30-03-12, 19:58
Then you're completely wrong, because it would require that such a thing as sound laws would be non-existent. When a sound change happens, this happens across the entire vocabulary of a language, and without exceptions. If there's apparent exceptions, these are either enforced by their own sets of rules (Verner's Law in the Germanic languages is a good example of that), or it is because a word is a loanword (meaning the word entered the language after the sound change happened). There are no exceptions from the above.

The best example (for you, anyways) is if you compare Gheg and Tosk dialects. You will notice that the differences are always regularly and across the board. This is also a perfect example to debunk your silly idea that Albanian is purportedly unchanged since prehistoric times: the fact dialects exist shows that Albanian has changed. It's also a perfect question for you: which dialect is closer to the original condition in Albanian? Gheg? Or Tosk?

The german Xylander wrote that sanskrit and albanian had many similar words, he actually stated about 1200.
gathering info from Bianchi book Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum from 1635, another from de Lecce in 1716, he noted
Sanskit (S) Albanian (A)
land as S=Stira A=Stere

hill as S=Mala A=Malli

tree as S=druh A=drou

man as S=purusha A=pourre

8mike
30-03-12, 21:00
The german Xylander wrote that sanskrit and albanian had many similar words, he actually stated about 1200.
gathering info from Bianchi book Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum from 1635, another from de Lecce in 1716, he noted
Sanskit (S) Albanian (A)
land as S=Stira A=Stere

hill as S=Mala A=Malli

tree as S=druh A=drou

man as S=purusha A=pourre

'pourre' ? do you mean 'burre'? the albanian word should be an evolution of PIE *bʰuH- (become) and *bʰer- (bear, carry) relating to 'child who grew up' or something like that.

zanipolo
30-03-12, 22:57
'pourre' ? do you mean 'burre'? the albanian word should be an evolution of PIE *bʰuH- (become) and *bʰer- (bear, carry) relating to 'child who grew up' or something like that.

i rechecked it , and its a pourre hundreds of years ago. maybe it a change like s was written as an f only 150 years.

maybe you can check these others

worm S=krimi A=krimp

bones S=asthi A =eshte

great S=mahat A=mad


its good to be mad in albanian !!!!

Endri
31-03-12, 00:22
The german Xylander wrote that sanskrit and albanian had many similar words, he actually stated about 1200.
gathering info from Bianchi book Dictionarium Latino-Epiroticum from 1635, another from de Lecce in 1716, he noted
Sanskit (S) Albanian (A)
land as S=Stira A=Stere

hill as S=Mala A=Malli

tree as S=druh A=drou

man as S=purusha A=pourre

Hill in modern Albanian is "Kodër" (indefinite noun), "Kodra" (definite noun) and i think it hasn't changed in the last 150 years. The word which this guy points out as hill aka "mal/i" (since malli is a word totally unrelated) is a Latin loan word.

Exp:
English-Mountain
Italian-Montagna
Albanian-Mali

As for man the word must be "burrë" and i'm sure that 150 years ago and now it was pronounce fairly the same with the only difference that at the time this guy wrote this supposedly common words it didn't exist and formal Albanian language with rules and everything else so basically everyone could write any word as he heard it or thought it should be written and still be the correct way to write it.


i rechecked it , and its a pourre hundreds of years ago. maybe it a change like s was written as an f only 150 years.

maybe you can check these others

worm S=krimi A=krimp

bones S=asthi A =eshte

great S=mahat A=mad


its good to be mad in albanian !!!!

"Worm" would be "Krimb" which exist as an adverb too, "i/e krimbur" and means "Rotten".

For "bones" the word this author means, I suppose is "Eshtra", which is an sort of old word, rarely used today. "Është" is third person, singular, Present Tense, Demostrative Way of the verb "To Be" (Jam-Alb)

As for "great" the word again I suppose is "i/e Madh". I think in the Albanian Language thread this word has already been "discussed", and I think is a PIE word in Albanian. Like for example in Greek (if i'm not mistaken) the word or one of the words for great or big is "mega", which you don't need to be an expert to say that "madh" and "mega" either are loan words or one-another or have a common root.

IDK but this guy doesn't seem a very good linguistic or at least with little knowledge in Albanian not to say none at all.

zanipolo
31-03-12, 04:08
Hill in modern Albanian is "Kodër" (indefinite noun), "Kodra" (definite noun) and i think it hasn't changed in the last 150 years. The word which this guy points out as hill aka "mal/i" (since malli is a word totally unrelated) is a Latin loan word.

Exp:
English-Mountain
Italian-Montagna
Albanian-Mali

As for man the word must be "burrë" and i'm sure that 150 years ago and now it was pronounce fairly the same with the only difference that at the time this guy wrote this supposedly common words it didn't exist and formal Albanian language with rules and everything else so basically everyone could write any word as he heard it or thought it should be written and still be the correct way to write it.



"Worm" would be "Krimb" which exist as an adverb too, "i/e krimbur" and means "Rotten".

For "bones" the word this author means, I suppose is "Eshtra", which is an sort of old word, rarely used today. "Është" is third person, singular, Present Tense, Demostrative Way of the verb "To Be" (Jam-Alb)

As for "great" the word again I suppose is "i/e Madh". I think in the Albanian Language thread this word has already been "discussed", and I think is a PIE word in Albanian. Like for example in Greek (if i'm not mistaken) the word or one of the words for great or big is "mega", which you don't need to be an expert to say that "madh" and "mega" either are loan words or one-another or have a common root.

IDK but this guy doesn't seem a very good linguistic or at least with little knowledge in Albanian not to say none at all.

yes its a long time ago and words change from all languages

Die Sprache der Albanesen oder Schkipetaren / von J. Ritter von Xylander Author Xylander, Josef Ritter von 1794-1854 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/people/Xylander%2C%20Josef%20Ritter%20von%201794-1854?c=book&q=creator%3A%22Xylander%2C+Josef+Ritter+von+1794-1854%22) Subjects Albanian language (http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=subject%3A%22Albanian+language%22); Albanian language -- Grammar (http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=subject%3A%22Albanian+language+--+Grammar%22)


Since the italian Bianchi in the 17th century claimed albanian to be Epirote as he found albanian people and writing in southern italy to match what he found in albania , Ritter von xylander caliamed albanan to be of persian origin , via migration through Wallachia ( vlachs?)

Yetos
31-03-12, 08:53
yes its a long time ago and words change from all languages

Die Sprache der Albanesen oder Schkipetaren / von J. Ritter von Xylander

Author Xylander, Josef Ritter von 1794-1854 (http://trove.nla.gov.au/people/Xylander%2C%20Josef%20Ritter%20von%201794-1854?c=book&q=creator%3A) Subjects Albanian language (http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=subject%3A); Albanian language -- Grammar (http://trove.nla.gov.au/result?q=subject%3A)


Since the italian Bianchi in the 17th century claimed albanian to be Epirote as he found albanian people and writing in southern italy to match what he found in albania , Ritter von xylander caliamed albanan to be of persian origin , via migration through Wallachia ( vlachs?)

wallachians and Vlachs are not the same people,

Vlachs = aromani

8mike
31-03-12, 18:24
i rechecked it , and its a pourre hundreds of years ago. maybe it a change like s was written as an f only 150 years.

maybe you can check these others

worm S=krimi A=krimp

bones S=asthi A =eshte

great S=mahat A=mad


its good to be mad in albanian !!!!

trust me, it's burre, cause the etymology is Pokorny's not mine. Also madh comes from *mag because of change of g -> dh as in dhembe (tooth) and dhe (ground, earth), cognates with latin "magnus", greek "mega" etc

zanipolo
07-04-12, 01:38
Hellanicus of Lesbos however wrote that Tyrrhenians, were previously called Pelasgians, the pre Greek inhabitants of Greece and surroundings. The term Pelasgoi however, was also used as an ethnic designator at this time in north west Anatolia.

Similarly the Tyrrhanians (Etruscans) are also attested on the Kumdanli inscription, in Anatolia near lake Askania, which is modern Lake Burdur. This Etruscan link with the Pelasgians therefore is quite likely, because there were quite a few pre-Greek place names in Greece also that are not Greek in origin, nor are they IndoEuropean, but which have Etruscan etymologies. Spur=city & also citizenry/Etruscan, Corithos/Etruscan, Corinthos/Greece; Curtun/Etruscan, Gurton/Greece; tepa=hill/Etruscan, Thebes/Greece.

According to the Phoronis: "Phrastor was the son of Pelasgus, their king, and Menippe, the daughter of Peneus; his son was Amyntor, Amyntor's son was Tutamides, and the later's son was Nanas. In his reign the Pelasgians were driven out of their country by the Greeks, and after leaving their ships on the river Spines in the Ionian Gulf, they took Croton, an inland city and proceeding from there, they colonized the country (later) called Tyrrhenia."

Thucedetes [4.109,2] writes that the peninsula of Akte (Chalkidike), is inhabited by Tyrrhenians, showing that they weren't just from Anatolia. The town of Gergitha in the Troad, is tied to Hargita in Transylvania, inhabited by the Sicul, a tribe also associated with the Etruscans and mentioned on the victory Stella near Thebes.

bold from this link below
http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/The%20Etruscan%20People%20and%20language.htm

Etruscan from ancient Hungarian!, must be pre Magyars

Yetos
07-04-12, 08:21
Hellanicus of Lesbos however wrote that Tyrrhenians, were previously called Pelasgians, the pre Greek inhabitants of Greece and surroundings. The term Pelasgoi however, was also used as an ethnic designator at this time in north west Anatolia.

Similarly the Tyrrhanians (Etruscans) are also attested on the Kumdanli inscription, in Anatolia near lake Askania, which is modern Lake Burdur. This Etruscan link with the Pelasgians therefore is quite likely, because there were quite a few pre-Greek place names in Greece also that are not Greek in origin, nor are they IndoEuropean, but which have Etruscan etymologies. Spur=city & also citizenry/Etruscan, Corithos/Etruscan, Corinthos/Greece; Curtun/Etruscan, Gurton/Greece; tepa=hill/Etruscan, Thebes/Greece.

According to the Phoronis: "Phrastor was the son of Pelasgus, their king, and Menippe, the daughter of Peneus; his son was Amyntor, Amyntor's son was Tutamides, and the later's son was Nanas. In his reign the Pelasgians were driven out of their country by the Greeks, and after leaving their ships on the river Spines in the Ionian Gulf, they took Croton, an inland city and proceeding from there, they colonized the country (later) called Tyrrhenia."

Thucedetes [4.109,2] writes that the peninsula of Akte (Chalkidike), is inhabited by Tyrrhenians, showing that they weren't just from Anatolia. The town of Gergitha in the Troad, is tied to Hargita in Transylvania, inhabited by the Sicul, a tribe also associated with the Etruscans and mentioned on the victory Stella near Thebes.

bold from this link below
http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/The Etruscan People and language.htm (http://users.cwnet.com/millenia/The%20Etruscan%20People%20and%20language.htm)

Etruscan from ancient Hungarian!, must be pre Magyars

wow at last,

can you find also the text that Atheneans Spoke Pelasgian before Greek?

Jacktheripper
08-04-12, 04:13
Julia90, i start thinking that you are not really from Tuscany. Albanians genetically are more similar to some Greek population and to some southern Italians, but Tuscans are more similar to northern Italians.

Indeed. Infact to me she is not Tuscan at all. I know Tuscans and she try to portray them as more different as she can for unknown reasons. :useless:

Jacktheripper
08-04-12, 04:25
well, i would say that jenerally i can recognize well albanians here in italy, but they fit well at least here in tuscany and in all italy.
Might i ask you if you have tuscan origins? Maybe you are corsican.
I find your posts quite useful, in the pat of the tosco ancient meaning

Albanians are very different phenotypically wise from Tuscans\Italians. Tuscans are mainly Atlanto-med, Alpine and a mix Dinarid\alpine\Med and it's very hard to find pure dinarids as you find in most Albanians in Italy. At most Tuscans can be med\dinarid alpine\dinarid or atlanto-med\dinarid, the pure dinarids are as uncommon as it can be.

You have weird concepts about your people, given that you are really Tuscan of course.

zanipolo
01-05-12, 12:05
intereseting book on old etruscan languages ( p-group and q-group) plus other ancient languages
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=enyaAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=veneti+of+the+troad&source=bl&ots=r1z3OogkfP&sig=hTQ6OXMMXoMie5oIRssI7Yq-tk8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KumdT-rlEoHAiQe-5uTUDg&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=veneti of the troad&f=false (http://books.google.com.au/books?id=enyaAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA146&lpg=PA146&dq=veneti+of+the+troad&source=bl&ots=r1z3OogkfP&sig=hTQ6OXMMXoMie5oIRssI7Yq-tk8&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KumdT-rlEoHAiQe-5uTUDg&ved=0CCEQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=veneti%20of%20the%20troad&f=false)

Also deals with migration of etruscans along the danube to modern austria, and later departing around 900BC to tuscany. The book says the raeti where etruscans who remained and merged with illyrians and later venetics. Also states , etruscans originated from Lemnos and samothrace.

A bit old, but some of these older books go into wonderful detailed work which is sometimes lacking today

julia90
01-05-12, 23:39
Albanians are very different phenotypically wise from Tuscans\Italians. Tuscans are mainly Atlanto-med, Alpine and a mix Dinarid\alpine\Med and it's very hard to find pure dinarids as you find in most Albanians in Italy. At most Tuscans can be med\dinarid alpine\dinarid or atlanto-med\dinarid, the pure dinarids are as uncommon as it can be.

You have weird concepts about your people, given that you are really Tuscan of course.

well, let's say that i easily spot albanians in the streets here if they walks on group, because i find similar charachteristics in them, but if taken singularly they are difficult to spot from the locals, and also those new generations can be perfectly intengrable here, so i prefer them toghether with romanians to other immigrants..

I'm tuscan i even speek in the local vernacolo.

We can find also pure dinaroid in tuscany, thought not as in balkans..

Dominus
30-05-13, 18:31
the Greek Branch Arbanitika is more clear language, cause has the less Turkish and slavic words than modern Albanian

κους ε πρεσσε λοντρενε, τι κιεμαι τε μοτρενε,
κιεμαι simmilar Greek γαμε- not modern κ...
μοτρενε - μητρις

"Etruscan were not Albanians,
in fact a big % of modern Albanians are from Transylvania from ALba Lullia,
the linguistic simmilarity is either IE, or from ancient Pelasgic "

probably julia read Zeus10 bul...t


Hello all.
I'm not a linguist, so i will not try to analyze what Julia says here but i just wanted to replay to iapetoc about something. Telling the truth, there is long time that I read here in forum posts from everyone, but i never tried to write something because, as I said before, I cannot compete with people who know something more than me in this area.
But iapetoc say something that everyone who have a little knowledge about history or linguistic will notice that is TOTALLY wrong.
First of all, Arbanitica(Arvanitica) is not any greek branch, is simply the old/new albanian. The arvanites are the albanian people living in Greece, same as arbereshe in Italy or arnauts in Turkey. Now, why iapetoc try to make them a greek branch, i don't know, maybe he'll be so kind to answer it by himself. Their language is not greek and if there is any scientist, linguist, historian or whatever who will proove the contrary, then I'll call myself greek , not albanian.
Now, let's analyze what he says here.

If arvanitica as a hellenic branch is a clear language because have less turkish or slavic words then why are you, iapetoc, comparing it with the albanian language and not with the greek one? Maybe which language is clear from slavic or turkish words cannot be albanian because cannot be?

" κους ε πρεσσε λοντρενε, τι κιεμαι τε μοτρενε" what does exactly means in greek language? Nothing, and you know why, because is clearly albanian (new one or old one, I don't see any difference). It means "kush e pret lodrene, ti qieme te motrene".
κους = kush= who,
ε πρεσσε = e prese = cut,(means stop),
λοντρενε = lodren (e) harene = music
τι κιεμαι = ti qieme = we'll f**k
te motrene = te motren = his mother.
Because is writed with greek letters does that means it is greek language? :)) I don't think so.
Kieme is similar with γαμε? How that?
And how can you, or whoever, here in this forum or other forums try to analize a foreign language when you don't know yours??
I respect you for trying to find something similar or trying to resolve some doubts, but claiming that "Etruscan were not Albanians,
in fact a big % of modern Albanians are from Transylvania from ALba Lullia,
the linguistic simmilarity is either IE, or from ancient Pelasgic ", when in fact, you have no idea (no offense) about etruscans or albanians, go from topic to topic trying to involve the origin of albanians with berbers, caucasians, transilvania etc, to me it seems that your goal is only one: make albanians from Nibiru.
I'm not the kind of people who run behind nationalist's, but i'll not accept that you or whoever say whatever about my language, a language that you don't understand and you don't accept because of your interests. Stop playing around, please, do something about greek language and don't try to "connect" everything with your language. Not everything in this world starts by the hellenic(not greek) world, neither the albanian one.
Thank you for understanding.

Yetos
30-05-13, 20:14
Hello all.
I'm not a linguist, so i will not try to analyze what Julia says here but i just wanted to replay to iapetoc about something. Telling the truth, there is long time that I read here in forum posts from everyone, but i never tried to write something because, as I said before, I cannot compete with people who know something more than me in this area.
But iapetoc say something that everyone who have a little knowledge about history or linguistic will notice that is TOTALLY wrong.
First of all, Arbanitica(Arvanitica) is not any greek branch, is simply the old/new albanian. The arvanites are the albanian people living in Greece, same as arbereshe in Italy or arnauts in Turkey. Now, why iapetoc try to make them a greek branch, i don't know, maybe he'll be so kind to answer it by himself. Their language is not greek and if there is any scientist, linguist, historian or whatever who will proove the contrary, then I'll call myself greek , not albanian.
Now, let's analyze what he says here.

If arvanitica as a hellenic branch is a clear language because have less turkish or slavic words then why are you, iapetoc, comparing it with the albanian language and not with the greek one? Maybe which language is clear from slavic or turkish words cannot be albanian because cannot be?

" κους ε πρεσσε λοντρενε, τι κιεμαι τε μοτρενε" what does exactly means in greek language? Nothing, and you know why, because is clearly albanian (new one or old one, I don't see any difference). It means "kush e pret lodrene, ti qieme te motrene".
κους = kush= who,
ε πρεσσε = e prese = cut,(means stop),
λοντρενε = lodren (e) harene = music
τι κιεμαι = ti qieme = we'll f**k
te motrene = te motren = his mother.
Because is writed with greek letters does that means it is greek language? :)) I don't think so.
Kieme is similar with γαμε? How that?
And how can you, or whoever, here in this forum or other forums try to analize a foreign language when you don't know yours??
I respect you for trying to find something similar or trying to resolve some doubts, but claiming that "Etruscan were not Albanians,
in fact a big % of modern Albanians are from Transylvania from ALba Lullia,
the linguistic simmilarity is either IE, or from ancient Pelasgic ", when in fact, you have no idea (no offense) about etruscans or albanians, go from topic to topic trying to involve the origin of albanians with berbers, caucasians, transilvania etc, to me it seems that your goal is only one: make albanians from Nibiru.
I'm not the kind of people who run behind nationalist's, but i'll not accept that you or whoever say whatever about my language, a language that you don't understand and you don't accept because of your interests. Stop playing around, please, do something about greek language and don't try to "connect" everything with your language. Not everything in this world starts by the hellenic(not greek) world, neither the albanian one.
Thank you for understanding.

nice joke,
I guess you never read all my posts, and neither you care about etruscan language,
sorry you are not forced to buy, but when you decide, just be carefull what you buy,

what is next? to tell us that etruscan and Albanian are the same?
to tell us that homer spoke Albanian?
or to tell us that Albanian is the mother of all IE languages?

I am not a linguist either, but from the few I learn from some, you like it or not, even genetic show other than you will claim after,

thank you for reading it, try to read them all,

Pelasgians came from Anatolia, moved to Greece, and from Greece to Etruria.
they did not spoke IE means they did not spoke Albanian.
the only evidence of Pelasgian relativity of Albanians with Pelasgians is few words of non IE that survived and the myth written by a Greek named Herodotus,
Even genetics say the same,
if you want to prove something else just show us facts,
I do not care about your personal opininions without evidences, and offcourse before you read all scientific evidences written here by all.

Luan
30-05-13, 23:07
nice joke,
I guess you never read all my posts, and neither you care about etruscan language,
sorry you are not forced to buy, but when you decide, just be carefull what you buy,

what is next? to tell us that etruscan and Albanian are the same?
to tell us that homer spoke Albanian?
or to tell us that Albanian is the mother of all IE languages?

I am not a linguist either, but from the few I learn from some, you like it or not, even genetic show other than you will claim after,

thank you for reading it, try to read them all,

Pelasgians came from Anatolia, moved to Greece, and from Greece to Etruria.
they did not spoke IE means they did not spoke Albanian.
the only evidence of Pelasgian relativity of Albanians with Pelasgians is few words of non IE that survived and the myth written by a Greek named Herodotus,
Even genetics say the same,
if you want to prove something else just show us facts,
I do not care about your personal opininions without evidences, and offcourse before you read all scientific evidences written here by all.
You were the one that said Arberesh never went to Albania, when they are Albanian that escaped the ottomans. So take your own advice.

Yetos
31-05-13, 06:33
You were the one that said Arberesh never went to Albania, when they are Albanian that escaped the ottomans. So take your own advice.

you never read, and know nothing about Arberesh.

when you read who were they, and why they moved to italy, from where, etc, come back to tell us,

Dominus
01-06-13, 15:00
nice joke,
I guess you never read all my posts, and neither you care about etruscan language,
sorry you are not forced to buy, but when you decide, just be carefull what you buy,

what is next? to tell us that etruscan and Albanian are the same?
to tell us that homer spoke Albanian?
or to tell us that Albanian is the mother of all IE languages?

I am not a linguist either, but from the few I learn from some, you like it or not, even genetic show other than you will claim after,

thank you for reading it, try to read them all,

Pelasgians came from Anatolia, moved to Greece, and from Greece to Etruria.
they did not spoke IE means they did not spoke Albanian.
the only evidence of Pelasgian relativity of Albanians with Pelasgians is few words of non IE that survived and the myth written by a Greek named Herodotus,
Even genetics say the same,
if you want to prove something else just show us facts,
I do not care about your personal opininions without evidences, and offcourse before you read all scientific evidences written here by all.

Hold on my friend.
I'm afraid that you try to get out of my point here .
I was trying to show that arvanites are not any hellenic branch, and the citation of pelasgians was just to express my worries that you are not checking proofs but go from Athens to Tokio and from London to Istambul when you write something about albanians. With other words, I have the impression that you mix up much things and never try to get to the real point. IS MY OPINION.
Anyway, can you confirm for me that arvanitic is a hellenic branch??
And yes, I read some of your posts and i never care about etruscan language because my profesion is far away from there, is for that I said I'm not a linguist. I have no facts, neither you have, if yes, why are you using "maybe was like this, maybe come from there"?
I never said albanians come from etruscans, read me again :)).
Thank you.

Yetos
01-06-13, 17:03
Hold on my friend.
I'm afraid that you try to get out of my point here .
I was trying to show that arvanites are not any hellenic branch, and the citation of pelasgians was just to express my worries that you are not checking proofs but go from Athens to Tokio and from London to Istambul when you write something about albanians. With other words, I have the impression that you mix up much things and never try to get to the real point. IS MY OPINION.
Anyway, can you confirm for me that arvanitic is a hellenic branch??
And yes, I read some of your posts and i never care about etruscan language because my profesion is far away from there, is for that I said I'm not a linguist. I have no facts, neither you have, if yes, why are you using "maybe was like this, maybe come from there"?
I never said albanians come from etruscans, read me again :)).
Thank you.

Sorry, but if you ever read my posts your answers are there,

I am not going to reapeat my shelf,
simply the history that you learn in school, (as also in mine) is not the real one,
and since you are new in forum, I suggest you read many posts before you express,

the right to disagree is yours,
but don't tell about me something before you read what I wrote,
besides I gave many proves, and many writers and links etc etc,

Dominus
01-06-13, 17:26
Sorry, but if you ever read my posts your answers are there,

I am not going to reapeat my shelf,
simply the history that you learn in school, (as also in mine) is not the real one,
and since you are new in forum, I suggest you read many posts before you express,

the right to disagree is yours,
but don't tell about me something before you read what I wrote,
besides I gave many proves, and many writers and links etc etc,

I'm asking you to confirm it with facts that arvanites are hellenic branch, nothing more. While I'm waiting for the response, you just jump around and never give a direct answer. I'll not read all your posts to have an answer that you can write in 10 seconds. So, do you confirm that they are a hellenic branch or deny it?

In fact, it was iapetoc who wroted that arvanites are a hellenic branch, not you, sorry for misunderstunding. And in the schools of albania, at the time I was studying ,I've never read anything about arvanites , only that they existed as albanian speaking population.

albanopolis
02-06-13, 00:30
http://ms.fci.unibo.it/~baccolin/Image32.gifThis is the place where the Etruria was.

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_G2a.gifClearly from the map, some Etruscans came from Georgia, through Turkey, on ship jumped to Italy.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-T.gifMore from Anatolia, Greece to Etruria. Nothing from Albania.
http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup-J2.jpgAdd some J2 also from Anatolia and its sorroundings back to Etruria. So it looks like Etruscans were not homogenios either, and the map shows that most layers of Etruscan population indeed came from Turkey. So I am staring to believe the previous posters that probably were an outlier in Apenins. It does not seem that they came from Levant.

adamo
02-06-13, 00:41
The Etruscans where a mix of J2a M410, J2 M67 I think G2a (P15) came much earlier though and some hg T as well. Some of it must have came from Neolithic farmers, the rest from Middle Ages Jews probably. The Etruscans didn't seem to bring any other hg with them like R1b, they may have taken minimal amounts of J1.

albanopolis
02-06-13, 01:11
The Etruscans where a mix of J2a M410, J2 M67 I think G2a (P15) came much earlier though and some hg T as well. Some of it must have came from Neolithic farmers, the rest from Middle Ages Jews probably. The Etruscans didn't seem to bring any other hg with them like R1b, they may have taken minimal amounts of J1.
They had been in contact with Greeks. Their artwork showed it. So propably you are right. J2a seemed to be people from mesopotamia.

adamo
02-06-13, 01:14
They where anciently from Mesopotamia (J2), this is what I am trying to say. Much more recently than the Greeks with which they had contact with. They where a Greco-Anatolian sort of middle eastern substratum across north central Italy and extending into parts of coastal southern Italy, more middle eastern than greek, being from western turkey and arrive to Italy.

adamo
02-06-13, 01:31
and even the ancient Greeks, they had several tribes among them (Achaeans, Ionians,aeolians) several tribes in fact, where referred to as barbarian pelasgians, sea-travelers that came from the Middle East and maybe one from Egypt north-Africa, they settled down across Greece with mainland European "Hellenic" people's such as the Dorians and they where "hellenized" and this, long before the Etruscans arrived in Italy from the Middle East.

binx
03-06-13, 12:11
Hello all.
I'm not a linguist, so i will not try to analyze what Julia says here but i just wanted to replay to iapetoc about something. Telling the truth, there is long time that I read here in forum posts from everyone, but i never tried to write something because, as I said before, I cannot compete with people who know something more than me in this area.
But iapetoc say something that everyone who have a little knowledge about history or linguistic will notice that is TOTALLY wrong.
First of all, Arbanitica(Arvanitica) is not any greek branch, is simply the old/new albanian. The arvanites are the albanian people living in Greece, same as arbereshe in Italy or arnauts in Turkey. Now, why iapetoc try to make them a greek branch, i don't know, maybe he'll be so kind to answer it by himself. Their language is not greek and if there is any scientist, linguist, historian or whatever who will proove the contrary, then I'll call myself greek , not albanian.
Now, let's analyze what he says here.

If arvanitica as a hellenic branch is a clear language because have less turkish or slavic words then why are you, iapetoc, comparing it with the albanian language and not with the greek one? Maybe which language is clear from slavic or turkish words cannot be albanian because cannot be?

" κους ε πρεσσε λοντρενε, τι κιεμαι τε μοτρενε" what does exactly means in greek language? Nothing, and you know why, because is clearly albanian (new one or old one, I don't see any difference). It means "kush e pret lodrene, ti qieme te motrene".
κους = kush= who,
ε πρεσσε = e prese = cut,(means stop),
λοντρενε = lodren (e) harene = music
τι κιεμαι = ti qieme = we'll f**k
te motrene = te motren = his mother.
Because is writed with greek letters does that means it is greek language? :)) I don't think so.
Kieme is similar with γαμε? How that?
And how can you, or whoever, here in this forum or other forums try to analize a foreign language when you don't know yours??
I respect you for trying to find something similar or trying to resolve some doubts, but claiming that "Etruscan were not Albanians,
in fact a big % of modern Albanians are from Transylvania from ALba Lullia,
the linguistic simmilarity is either IE, or from ancient Pelasgic ", when in fact, you have no idea (no offense) about etruscans or albanians, go from topic to topic trying to involve the origin of albanians with berbers, caucasians, transilvania etc, to me it seems that your goal is only one: make albanians from Nibiru.
I'm not the kind of people who run behind nationalist's, but i'll not accept that you or whoever say whatever about my language, a language that you don't understand and you don't accept because of your interests. Stop playing around, please, do something about greek language and don't try to "connect" everything with your language. Not everything in this world starts by the hellenic(not greek) world, neither the albanian one.
Thank you for understanding.

This Albanian propaganda after a while becomes very boring

Dominus
03-06-13, 16:18
This Albanian propaganda after a while becomes very boring

If there is something that you lost, I can explain it to you. If it seems as propaganda for you, this isn't my problem. What I see is that the guy that was saying it, now has stoped. Now, if you want to take his place and answer to me about the things that he stated, then welcome.
I see that you mix up propaganda and truth. Or you just was bored and wanted to write something?? These things happens everyday, don't worry.

Marko94
03-06-13, 17:53
you never read, and know nothing about Arberesh.

when you read who were they, and why they moved to italy, from where, etc, come back to tell us,
If you say "i know nothing about arbaresh" is ok, but if you say "italian don't know about Arbaresh" is very hard to say :embarassed: .
After union of italy "arbaresh with calabrian" wanted for indipendence.
The arbaresh had greatly influenced Italian culture and Italy itself.

Illyricum Sacrum
20-06-13, 22:11
I'm new to this and I know it's the wrong topic, but the thread I was trying to post was closed. I'm trying to contact Garrick regarding his post. Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguistic similarity

Now if Garrick has a minimal knowledge of Albania he wouldhave spared us the explanation.

Garrick says:
Berber languages arequite suitable for comparison with the Albanian because among the Berbers Ehaplogroup (similar subgroup as Albanians) is prevalent,they belong to NorthAfrica and have preserved their distinctiveness despite the influence of Arabicand French.
I give the example of comparing Albanian words with languages Berbers of Morocco and Algeria (first part) and the language of the Tuareg(part two), the Tuareg language seems more suitable because it had less Araband French influence, due to the greater isolation of the population.

It is worth exploring, and non-Arab languages, Somalia,Sudan and Egypt.


English, Berbers, Albanian


1. Tamazight and Taqbaylit

say (eng.), timena (berb.), them (alb.)

my (eng.), inu (berb.), im, ime (alb.)

we (eng.), nekni (berb.), ne (alb.)??? (I say) Nekni and Neare similar? Is that We and Ne similar as well?

than (eng.), zi (berb.), se (alb.) ( I say) Do you have a clue how Se is pronounced in Albanian? Nothing close to Berber Zi

meat (eng.), aksum (berb.), ushqim (alb.) (q no pronounciation in English, as soft ch) (I say) this is out of whack. Meat is Mish in Albanian. Ushqim is Food

fat (eng.), lidam (berb.), dhjam (alb.)

father (eng.), baba (berb.), baba (alb) (I say) Father in Albanian is At, Baba is a Turkish loan word.

thread (eng.), ifili, ifilu (berb.), fill (alb.) (ll pronounced as english l) (I say) Fill is a Latin loan word Filo. Are Latin and Berber connected?

elephant (eng.), ifil (berb.), fil (alb.) (l no pronounciation in English, as ly) (I say) Elephant is what? Fil?!? It is Elefant in Albanian



2. Tamasheq

black (eng.), әzzәf (berb.), e zezë (alb.) (ë pronounced asenglish ә, the: δә) (I say) Black, I zi (masculine) e zezë (feminine)

do (eng.), ja (berb.), a (alb.) (I say) Do, means A?!?! Do is Bëj in Albanian

rotate (eng.), kәrukәr (berb.), qarkulloj (alb.) (I say) Rotateis Rrotulloj. Qarkulloj is a Latin loan word Circolare. Latin and Berber are related?!?

boast (eng.), baraj (berb.), mburrje (alb.)??? (I say) baraj and mburrje are close according to you?

want (eng.), durhәn (berb.), dua (alb.)

carry (eng.), babb (berb.), mbaj (alb.)??? (I say) Really?

eat (eng.), әkshen (berb.), ushqehem (alb.) (I say) Eat is Ha in Albanian

fly (eng.), ffurrәt (berb.), fluturoj (alb.)

health (eng.), sehet (berb.), shëndet (alb.)

albanopolis
21-06-13, 02:16
I'm new to this and I know it's the wrong topic, but the thread I was trying to post was closed. I'm trying to contact Garrick regarding his post. Berbers and Albanians, E haplogroup and linguisticsimilarity

Now if Garrick has a minimal knowledge of Albania he wouldhave spared us the explanation.

Garrick says:
Berber languages arequite suitable for comparison with the Albanian because among the Berbers Ehaplogroup (similar subgroup as Albanians) is prevalent,they belong to NorthAfrica and have preserved their distinctiveness despite the influence of Arabicand French.
I give the example of comparing Albanian words withlanguages Berbers of Morocco and Algeria (first part) and the language of the Tuareg(part two), the Tuareg language seems more suitable because it had less Araband French influence, due to the greater isolation of the population.

It is worth exploring, and non-Arab languages, Somalia,Sudan and Egypt.


English, Berbers, Albanian


1. Tamazight and Taqbaylit

say (eng.), timena (berb.), them (alb.)

my (eng.), inu (berb.), im, ime (alb.)

we (eng.), nekni (berb.), ne (alb.)??? (I say) Nekni and Neare similar? Is that We and Ne similar as well?

than (eng.), zi (berb.), se (alb.) ( I say) Do you have aclue how Se is pronounced in Albanian? Nothing close to Berber Zi

meat (eng.), aksum (berb.), ushqim (alb.) (q nopronounciation in English, as soft ch) (I say) this is out of whack. Meat isMish in Albanian. Ushqim is Food

fat (eng.), lidam (berb.), dhjam (alb.)

father (eng.), baba (berb.), baba (alb) (I say) Father inAlbanian is At, Baba is a Turkish loan word.

thread (eng.), ifili, ifilu (berb.), fill (alb.) (llpronounced as english l) (I say) Fill is a Latin loan word Filo. Are Latin andBerber connected?

elephant (eng.), ifil (berb.), fil (alb.) (l nopronounciation in English, as ly) (Isay) Elephant is what? Fil?!? It is Elefant in Albanian



2. Tamasheq

black (eng.), әzzәf (berb.), e zezë (alb.) (ë pronounced asenglish ә, the: δә) (I say) Black, I zi (masculine) e zezë (feminine)

do (eng.), ja (berb.), a (alb.) (I say) Do, means A?!?! Do is Bëj in Albanian

rotate (eng.), kәrukәr (berb.), qarkulloj (alb.) (I say) Rotateis Rrotulloj. Qarkulloj is a Latin loan word Circolare. Latin and Berber arerelated?!?

boast (eng.), baraj (berb.), mburrje (alb.)??? (I say) barajand mburrje are close according to you?

want (eng.), durhәn (berb.), dua (alb.)

carry (eng.), babb (berb.), mbaj (alb.)??? (I say) Really?

eat (eng.), әkshen (berb.), ushqehem (alb.) (I say) Eat is Hain Albanian

fly (eng.), ffurrәt (berb.), fluturoj (alb.)

health (eng.), sehet (berb.), shëndet (alb.)

Hey! All Albos up to arms! Wellcome to the forum! Don't waste your energies with this topic! I saw it and just ignored! There are provocators from our neighbours. The best way to deal with them is either be really rude, or ignore them alltogether. They will talk trash as much as they can, it does not count. So, please ignore this topic! I saw a post of yours in linguistic section. I was impressed by the knowledge you have! Do it as hobby, or it is your trade?

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 14:53
Hi Albanopolis, I know it's easier to ignore them, but I can't let it go without putting in my two cents. History and linguistics are a hobby of mine. More of us speak up the better is. Thank you for your welcome!

zanipolo
21-06-13, 21:37
Hi Albanopolis, I know it's easier to ignore them, but I can't let it go without putting in my two cents. History and linguistics are a hobby of mine. More of us speak up the better is. Thank you for your welcome!

If you believe genetics and languages are related to each other,and you can find some type of relationship with each other, then you are wasting your time.

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 21:51
If you believe genetics and languages are related to each other,and you can find some type of relationship with each other, then you are wasting your time.
I don't see where such correlation was made between languages and genes in my post. I'm not sure you even read it. I suppose you're barking to the wrong tree.

Illyricum Sacrum
21-06-13, 22:34
Maciano, I have to strongly disagree with your statement on Garrick. If anyone has any minimal knowledge of Albanian language, would find Garrick's Berber-Alb link laughable. Please check my post #198. As per Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza's, Albanians are the first settlers of the area (coming from Anatolia), followed by Armenians circa 500 years later then Greeks 2,000 later. "Genes, People and Languages, pages163-164)

zanipolo
22-06-13, 00:00
Is there any "albanian" marker in Britain? or even the departure point in the netherlands?
The Romans took many thracians ( dacians, getae, triballi, moesians, bessi etc ) men there
The Romans took many IllyrianS (dalmatians, liburnians, pannonians, iasopes etc ) men there

If so, which are the markers?

Illyricum Sacrum
22-06-13, 00:29
This Albanian propaganda after a while becomes very boring Sorry Binx but do you have any knowledge of Albanian or Arvanitika? Let me rephrase a well known Greek author:
“It’s the fault of a German,” Mr. Dimou said about Greek pride in this cause. He was referring to Johann Winckelmann, the 18th-century German art historian whose vision of an ancient Greece “populated by beautiful, tall, blond, wise people, representing perfection,” as Mr. Dimou put it, was in a sense imposed on the country to shape modern Greek identity.
“We used to speak Albanian and call ourselves Romans, but then Winckelmann, Goethe (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/g/johann_wolfgang_von_goethe/index.html?inline=nyt-per), Victor Hugo, Delacroix, they all told us, ‘No, you are Hellenes, direct descendants of Plato and Socrates,’ and that did it. If a small, poor nation has such a burden put on its shoulders, it will never recover.” Now to enlighten you, since you're bored, I suggest you read a study by John Bintliff "The Ethnoarchaelogy of a "passive" ethnicity: the Arvanites of Central Greece". You'll get a better understanding of Arvanitika. I suggest you read, also Edmund Martin Geldart's "The Modern Greek Language" pages128-137 to get a better grasp of Albanian and correlation of it with Sanscrit and where Latin and Greek stand.

Athelti Albanoi
28-06-13, 21:40
I have moved the thread to the Linguistics subforum.

I personally believe that it is a mistake to classify the Albanian language as purely Indo-European. I think it is originally a language of Old Europe (Neolithic South-East Europe, settled by Near Eastern farmers, so in all likelihood an Afro-Asiatic language), which was later influenced by the overbearing presence of neighbouring Indo-European languages. Garrick pointed out in another thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26169) the similarity between Albanian and Berber languages.

Taranis made a few noteworthy observations here, but the long time span that separate ancient Etruscan from modern Albanian would effectively allow for such phonetic changes (more vowels, distinction between between voiced and unvoiced stop consonants). Just look how French vowels have diverged from other Romance languages and from Latin. As for the voiced and unvoiced stop consonants, Korean doesn't, while Japanese does, and Japanese undeniably descends in part from Korean. When two languages converge to form a new hybrid language (like English or Japanese) or one language is strongly influenced by another (like French with Frankish), it is common to see major shifts in vowels and/or consonants. Albanian is obviously a hybrid language belonging to two linguistic families (Afro-Asiatic and Indo-European).

Besides the linguistic aspect, it makes sense that Etruscan and Albanian be related to ancient Near Eastern languages, since both ethnic groups were migrants from Anatolia or the Levant, and both are an admixture mostly of haplogroups J2 and E1b1b. I think we could indeed associate the Pelasgians to these two haplogroups. I believe that R1a1a and R1b1b2a1 came later to Greece, Macedonia and Albania. I personally find it most likely that R1a1a was brought by the Mycenaeans, and R1b1b2a1 by the Sea Peoples, Dorians, Celts and Romans.

On the other hand I don't think the Illyrians have anything to do with either the Etruscans or the Albanians.

i really dont want to offend you personaly but your postis very idiotic and total nonsense
there is no connection between the paleo-indoeuropean albanian language and the afro-asiatic ones and that you reffer to this post of the serb which was not even meant seriouse it was just a simple provocation in which he used invented words as "albanian" shows that you have no clue what you are talking about

the albanian language is not a hybrid one it stayted almost the same for thousands of years that anicent scripts can still be translated in the today albanian language prooves this obviously

after Luigi_Luca_Cavalli-Sforza (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luigi_Luca_Cavalli-Sforza) the albanian language is dated to a begining over 8000 years ago http://i131.photobucket.com/albums/p292/Dardaniaaa/cavalli-sforza.jpg
so its the oldest language of europe which is still spoken today and if one language influnced others than this one
the latin and the hellenic language are based on the albanian one

there is no relation between the semitic languages of the levant and the norhtafrican ones to the languages of old europe like albanian
when should this connection should happend after you when they splitted in the late stone age??

the last sentence is the best this disqualifys you to every discussion about albanians or the balkans
the albanains are culturally and genetically the illyrians themself their dircet descents
and the etruscans are one of the main proto-illyrian pelasgic tribes like the macedonians
they came from illyria to italy

for this topic i recomend you:
http://books.google.fr/books?id=tQ_5tseFPFwC&dq=albanian++etruscan&hl=fr&ei=fQDRTuiGJOj04QS93pRw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&sqi=2&ved=0CDcQ6AEwAg

http://books.google.de/books?id=-XNDcgAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:%22Robert+d'+Angely%22&hl=de&sa=X&ei=CObNUYpzhui1BszLgYAC&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ (http://books.google.de/books?id=-XNDcgAACAAJ&dq=inauthor:%22Robert+d'+Angely%22&hl=de&sa=X&ei=CObNUYpzhui1BszLgYAC&ved=0CDkQ6AEwAQ)
(http://www.pelasg.org/robert_dangely_enigma_en.html)

Athelti Albanoi
28-06-13, 21:43
also interesting for this topic
http://books.google.fr/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA40&dq=albanian++etruscan&hl=fr&ei=fQDRTuiGJOj04QS93pRw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&sqi=2&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=albanian%20%20etruscan&f=false

http://books.google.fr/books?id=MMMkAAAAMAAJ&q=albanian++etruscan&dq=albanian++etruscan&hl=fr&ei=fQDRTuiGJOj04QS93pRw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&sqi=2&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=BWJORkemJIEC&pg=PA380&dq=Etruscans+illyrian&lr=#v=onepage&q&f=false

Athelti Albanoi
28-06-13, 21:51
Garrick pointed out in another thread (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26169) the similarity between Albanian and Berber languages.


say in albanian is "thuaj"
my is "e imja"
we is "ne"
"se" is "because" than is "at her"
meat is "mish" ushqim means food not meat
fat is "yndyre" in geg dialekt there exist the word vijam but dhjam is invented total nonsense
father means "ati" and mother means "ema" baba is not albanian this word is used in almost every muslim country it is a loanword
thread means "ceshtije" fill is nonsense it has no meaning
elephant means "elefanti" fil again total nonsense

black is "zi" e zeze means its black
roatate is "rrotullim"
eat is "ngren"

and so on...

this guy worked with googel translator lol i checked it
just a simple provocation wich cruise around all serbian forums

Athelti Albanoi
28-06-13, 22:00
the pelasgo-illyrians were not a nation like in the modern sense they even often killed each other
but they were all connected in a big cultural family


5910

5911

5912

5913

5914

Ike
28-06-13, 22:13
Ok, dude worked with google translator.
It's not his fault he doesn't know both Albanian and Berberian to confirm it. That's why it's public on forum, for you to check it.

Anyway, it seems reasonable to assume that Albanian language developed from the language their ancestors spoke, which points us to North-African E population. If there are no similarities that means either Albanians or Berberians are now speaking language that was imposed onto them by later invaders (if anyone has different theory please present). When we extrude Arab influence from Berberian where do we stand?

Athelti Albanoi
28-06-13, 22:45
Ok, dude worked with google translator.
It's not his fault he doesn't know both Albanian and Berberian to confirm it. That's why it's public on forum, for you to check it.

Anyway, it seems reasonable to assume that Albanian language developed from the language their ancestors spoke, which points us to North-African E population. If there are no similarities that means either Albanians or Berberians are now speaking language that was imposed onto them by later invaders (if anyone has different theory please present). When we extrude Arab influence from Berberian where do we stand?

of course its his fault if you dont know than you should not talk about it or present it as a fact
dont protect him just because you are serbian too ;)

it points us not at all to the north african-e population you point it there although you have more E1b1b1 than albanians
eastern europeans have nothing in common with north afrcans they splitted in the late stone age
so its total nonsense to talk about "our ancestors" in north africa

we are talking about a time where no berberian or arabs existed so again you are talking nonsense
thats unlogical thats like trying to connect today german and today iranian because the proto-indoeuropeans migrated from that place
:02::65:

zanipolo
28-06-13, 23:52
the pelasgo-illyrians were not a nation like in the modern sense they even often killed each other
but they were all connected in a big cultural family


5910

5911

5912

5913

5914

why you mixing etruscan with albanian, ?......neither existed at the same time.

Why you mentioning illyrians,? the illyrians did not call themselves illyrians, never ever, it is a geographical name invented by Greeks to refer to the many different linguistic, ethnic and different tribes to the noth of Hellenic lands, basically barbarians........
Illyrians, who all had different kings/chiefs and very rarely ever united together......which is why the Romans could defeat them......by piecemeal wars.

The thracians are also a geographical name, same as italians, iberians, british etc

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 00:11
why you mixing etruscan with albanian, ?......neither existed at the same time.

Why you mentioning illyrians,? the illyrians did not call themselves illyrians, never ever, it is a geographical name invented by Greeks to refer to the many different linguistic, ethnic and different tribes to the noth of Hellenic lands, basically barbarians........
Illyrians, who all had different kings/chiefs and very rarely ever united together......which is why the Romans could defeat them......by piecemeal wars.

The thracians are also a geographical name, same as italians, iberians, british etc
the pelasgic tribe of etruscians are part of the albanian ancesotrs who said they existed at the same time
we are talking about the ancient etruscian scripts which can be translated only in todays albanain

wrong, illyrians called themself ilir which means the free one in albanian and iliria was the land of the free
because they were the only one who ruled from one see to another the whole balkan

and greeks didnt exist at that time you are talking about hellenic tribes which are also descent of the pelasgo-illyrians like the dorians which came from north illyria

romans were not very different from illyrians they were connceted with them trought the illyrian tribes like the mesapians etruscians and the adriatic veneti

the illyrians were not a nation like in the modern sense they foughted their worst wars with their own for example the dardanians and macedonians had a long history of rivality
or the taulanti which fought on the side of the romans against other rival illyric tribes
but they were all culturally connected had the same language and believes

there are a few one which could unite them as one power for example the warrior king bato who caused the great illyrian revolt which almost destroyed rome

zanipolo
29-06-13, 01:58
the pelasgic tribe of etruscians are part of the albanian ancesotrs who said they existed at the same time
we are talking about the ancient etruscian scripts which can be translated only in todays albanain

wrong, illyrians called themself ilir which means the free one in albanian and iliria was the land of the free
because they were the only one who ruled from one see to another the whole balkan

and greeks didnt exist at that time you are talking about hellenic tribes which are also descent of the pelasgo-illyrians like the dorians which came from north illyria

romans were not very different from illyrians they were connceted with them trought the illyrian tribes like the mesapians etruscians and the adriatic veneti

the illyrians were not a nation like in the modern sense they foughted their worst wars with their own for example the dardanians and macedonians had a long history of rivality
or the taulanti which fought on the side of the romans against other rival illyric tribes
but they were all culturally connected had the same language and believes

there are a few one which could unite them as one power for example the warrior king bato who caused the great illyrian revolt which almost destroyed rome

explain please because I see no mention of the term etruscan in AD times and I see no term of albanoi in BC times.........so where is this link?


link me this ilir term and not some fictional fantasy greek, Egyptian, roman, celtic term ........

I will find the recent article which states that the Taulanti where a mix of "parthini-illyrian", "epirote" and "hellenic" people.
they sided with the Romans because they hated the Dalmatian-illyrians, these taulanti where more aligned with the macedonians as proved by the numerous "royal" weddings between each other

Albanians cannot claim the term they are illyrians, because bosnians, croatians etc etc have the same claim. You maybe can claim taulanti, parthini and dardanian as these tribes lived in modern albania and kosovo, but that's a stretch as well

Ike
29-06-13, 04:41
of course its his fault if you dont know than you should not talk about it or present it as a fact
dont protect him just because you are serbian too ;)


He presented something he got from Google translator. He was mislead by it. You said he was a provoker, and I don't think that's the right term for it. Nobody is protecting anyone from anything.




it points us not at all to the north african-e population you point it there although you have more E1b1b1 than albanians
eastern europeans have nothing in common with north afrcans they splitted in the late stone age
so its total nonsense to talk about "our ancestors" in north africa

we are talking about a time where no berberian or arabs existed so again you are talking nonsense
thats unlogical thats like trying to connect today german and today iranian because the proto-indoeuropeans migrated from that place


I see nothing wrong with connection between German and Iranian languages. There is an obvious connection.

Stone age is a long period. What's your point? That E-V13 invented Albanian language after they broke up from North Africa? When would that be?

Yetos
29-06-13, 07:41
the pelasgic tribe of etruscians are part of the albanian ancesotrs who said they existed at the same time
we are talking about the ancient etruscian scripts which can be translated only in todays albanain

wrong, illyrians called themself ilir which means the free one in albanian and iliria was the land of the free
because they were the only one who ruled from one see to another the whole balkan

and greeks didnt exist at that time you are talking about hellenic tribes which are also descent of the pelasgo-illyrians like the dorians which came from north illyria

romans were not very different from illyrians they were connceted with them trought the illyrian tribes like the mesapians etruscians and the adriatic veneti

the illyrians were not a nation like in the modern sense they foughted their worst wars with their own for example the dardanians and macedonians had a long history of rivality
or the taulanti which fought on the side of the romans against other rival illyric tribes
but they were all culturally connected had the same language and believes

there are a few one which could unite them as one power for example the warrior king bato who caused the great illyrian revolt which almost destroyed rome

Better read more threads and posts in the forum,

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 12:08
explain please because I see no mention of the term etruscan in AD times and I see no term of albanoi in BC times.........so where is this link?


link me this ilir term and not some fictional fantasy greek, Egyptian, roman, celtic term ........

I will find the recent article which states that the Taulanti where a mix of "parthini-illyrian", "epirote" and "hellenic" people.
they sided with the Romans because they hated the Dalmatian-illyrians, these taulanti where more aligned with the macedonians as proved by the numerous "royal" weddings between each other

you are wasting my time with your random nonsense
how you see no term of albanoi in bc times?? lol the albanoi or albani were an illyrian tribe in middle albania from them comes the term "albanians"

5916

illyr is the english form of iliri which means the free one in today albanian
so about what ficitonal name are you talking?

lol the parthini were also an illyrian tribe:

The Parthini or Partheni or Peerthenetai (Greek (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language) Παρθῖνοι, Παρθηνοί) [60] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-60) were Illyrians, part of the Taulantii[6 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#cite_note-61)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria#Parthini

epiriote is another synonym for albanians in the middle ages or the south illyrian tribes in ancient times
hellens were just seperated descents of the illyrian dorians and other illyro-pelasgic tribes
macedonians are pre-hellenic they are pelasgian and part of the illyro-thracian cultural group they were considered as barbarians from the newbies on the balkan the hellens and see their cult of the sun and and and

5915


Albanians cannot claim the term they are illyrians, because bosnians, croatians etc etc have the same claim. You maybe can claim taulanti, parthini and dardanian as these tribes lived in modern albania and kosovo, but that's a stretch as well

hahahahha no no no bosnians croatians have no right at all to connect theirself with the illyrians becuase they are culturally and genetically 100% slavic
and the north illyrian tribes like the dalmatians paonians etc. went through the centuries down south when you immigrated
albanians are the only one which have the right to call themself illyrian culturally and gentically they are the illyrians themself
so dont switch roles your identity is slavic dont try to steal ours in fyromstyle

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 12:20
He presented something he got from Google translator. He was mislead by it. You said he was a provoker, and I don't think that's the right term for it. Nobody is protecting anyone from anything.

stop lyieng i have seen this post many times he didnt even wrotte it himself its from some retarded ultra-nationalistic forum from serbia
it was just a simple provocation look at the second post he trys to compare pictures from some berbers and northalbanians hahahahaha he is just a ***** so stop with your pseduo-objective writting



I see nothing wrong with connection between German and Iranian languages. There is an obvious connection.
Stone age is a long period. What's your point? That E-V13 invented Albanian language after they broke up from North Africa? When would that be?

5917

whats your point? you are talking nonsense not me
a haplogroup invented a language?? :embarassed:
and albanians are not just e-v13 there are also other haplogroups

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 12:21
Better read more threads and posts in the forum,

i know exactly what i am talking about i am studying this stuff

Taranis
29-06-13, 13:09
Welcome to Eupedia, although I must ask you to mind your manners.


the albanian language is not a hybrid one it stayted almost the same for thousands of years that anicent scripts can still be translated in the today albanian language prooves this obviously

I am sorry to disappoint you, but you are mistaken by a long shot.

Cavalli-Sforza based that estimate on glottochronology, which is a completely flawed method. There is also no evidence that Albanian "stayed almost the same for thousands of years", on the very contrary, Albanian probably didn't look recognizably like modern Albanian until the start of the Middle Ages. Albanian borrowed large amounts of vocabulary from Greek, Latin, Gothic, Slavic and Turkish (in approximately that chronological order).

All these "translations" of Etruscan in Albanian are based on magical word-dismantlement and make-believe. It's clear that Etruscan was a non-Indo-European language (while Albanian, in turn, is clearly Indo-European) and the two have no connection what so ever with each other. There is even an easy way to prove this: the Pyrgi tablet is a bilingual Etruscan-Phoenician inscription. Phoenician is a Semitic language - closely related with Hebrew, and so we know the content of the inscription. The Etruscan inscription should have the same, which is - even though not word-for-word, the case for the 'official' (scholarly) translation. I am still waiting for a 'translation' by those who who believe that Etruscan was Albanian, Slavic, Turkish (or whatever) that is not unintelligible gibberish.


the pelasgo-illyrians were not a nation like in the modern sense they even often killed each other
but they were all connected in a big cultural family

There were no "Pelasgo-Illyrians". This is a complete fabrication:

- The Pelasgians in the sense of the ancient Greeks were either the earliest ancestors of the Greeks themselves, or the Pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece. They are not strictly speaking a historic people but more a semi-legendary one. At this point, we have no connection with the Albanians or the Albanian language.

- The Illyrians were the tribes that inhabited the western Balkans in Antiquity. Their languages are poorly attested but one of them may have been the ancestor language of modern Albanian. There is no evidence they were connected in any way to the Pelasgians. It's also possible, instead, that Albanian is connected with the Dacian language.

- In the linguistic sense, the term "Pelasgian" has been used to refer to Greek words that are of non-Greek origin, that is, words that Greek did not inherit from Proto-Indo-European. Many of these words - where it is known - are either of Anatolian (as in, the extinct Indo-European language family that includes Hittite) and Semitic origin. It is also probable that a number of the other are of Minoan origin, but we know too little about Minoan (the presumed language of Linear A) to know for sure. Anyways, there is no evidence of such "Pelasgian" words to be found in Albanian.


i know exactly what i am talking about i am studying this stuff

No offense, but you should really spend some time studying the basics of comparative linguistics instead, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 14:17
Welcome to Eupedia, although I must ask you to mind your manners.

I am sorry to disappoint you, but you are mistaken by a long shot.

thank you for welcoming me and no your opinon does not dissapoint me at all


Cavalli-Sforza based that estimate on glottochronology, which is a completely flawed method. There is also no evidence that Albanian "stayed almost the same for thousands of years", on the very contrary, Albanian probably didn't look recognizably like modern Albanian until the start of the Middle Ages. Albanian borrowed large amounts of vocabulary from Greek, Latin, Gothic, Slavic and Turkish (in approximately that chronological order).

i cant say much about his methods of cavalli-sforza but his not the only one which confirms the paleo-induoeuropean orgin of the albanian language i just posted him because he is the only one who named a number
actually many ancient foundings like this one can be translated to the modern albanian
no not really albanian has loanwords like any other language but the amount of it compared to the orginal albanian words is very slight


All these "translations" of Etruscan in Albanian are based on magical word-dismantlement and make-believe. It's clear that Etruscan was a non-Indo-European language (while Albanian, in turn, is clearly Indo-European) and the two have no connection what so ever with each other. There is even an easy way to prove this: the Pyrgi tablet is a bilingual Etruscan-Phoenician inscription. Phoenician is a Semitic language - closely related with Hebrew, and so we know the content of the inscription. The Etruscan inscription should have the same, which is - even though not word-for-word, the case for the 'official' (scholarly) translation. I am still waiting for a 'translation' by those who who believe that Etruscan was Albanian, Slavic, Turkish (or whatever) that is not unintelligible gibberish.

now you are talking nonsense what magical word-dismantlement? the words can be translated in modern albanian in the same notation
clearly? not at all the indoeuropean theorie of the albanian language is heavily debated by linguists
of course they have a connection and of three of the pygri tablets which were found only one is in phoenic the two others are etruscan and who says that the phoenic inscription is just a translation of the two etruscan ones if the "officials" dont know what it means?? lol
you have your translation in albanian let me research a while i will post some sources


There were no "Pelasgo-Illyrians". This is a complete fabrication:

- The Pelasgians in the sense of the ancient Greeks were either the earliest ancestors of the Greeks themselves, or the Pre-Greek inhabitants of Greece. They are not strictly speaking a historic people but more a semi-legendary one. At this point, we have no connection with the Albanians or the Albanian language.

i use "pelasgo-illyrian" as a hypernym fo all the members of this big paleo-induoeuropean or illyric family
the word pelasgian was used by ancient writters to describe everything what is pre-hellenic and the only one who lived before the hellens there were the "pelasgian" so pre-helleinc illyrian-epiriotic tribes
and of course we have a connection with the albanian one why do you talk without any knowlegde about the albanain language
here you have it: http://books.google.de/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA39&dq=greek+language+albanian+compare&hl=de&sa=X&ei=p5FIUfOJO4Lw4QSEvoGIAQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=greek%20language%20albanian%20compare&f=false


- The Illyrians were the tribes that inhabited the western Balkans in Antiquity. Their languages are poorly attested but one of them may have been the ancestor language of modern Albanian. There is no evidence they were connected in any way to the Pelasgians. It's also possible, instead, that Albanian is connected with the Dacian language.

the borders of the illyrian tribes were never defiened exactly
their tribes ruled over the whole balkan in the north, parts of austria were the panonians the adriactic venti and so on, in the south the epiriotic tribes and the mesapians in italy in the east the sub-illyrian branch of the thracians

what we can say today is that all that "what we know" about the illyrio-thracian language can be perfectly connceted to the albanian one so their paleo-indeuropean or "pelasgian" connection can not be denied you can say maybe it was not like that but you can not prove it

so what is dacian? it is a subbranch of the thracians and belongs to the illyrian-thracian language family


- In the linguistic sense, the term "Pelasgian" has been used to refer to Greek words that are of non-Greek origin, that is, words that Greek did not inherit from Proto-Indo-European. Many of these words - where it is known - are either of Anatolian (as in, the extinct Indo-European language family that includes Hittite) and Semitic origin. It is also probable that a number of the other are of Minoan origin, but we know too little about Minoan (the presumed language of Linear A) to know for sure. Anyways, there is no evidence of such "Pelasgian" words to be found in Albanian.

stop using the term greek as a synonym for hellen that is unprofesional greeks or newgreeks were formed 200 years ago their connection to the hellens is vague

so again you just repeat me with other words
we just know that pelasgian words were pre-hellenic so stop comming up with theories about hitties and minoans
the hellens were formed through the mixture of paleo-indoeuropean tribes of the illyrian family like the dorians macedonians and other epiriots


No offense, but you should really spend some time studying the basics of comparative linguistics instead, because you have no idea what you are talking about.

really? after your post i would not dare to say that but whatever
unlike you i know exactly what i am talking about

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 14:29
5920

i took this map from wiki
the etruscans came from illyrian territory
and look at their closeness to the veneti and liburni

There were a number of peoples, of disputed Illyrian origins, that settled the eastern Italian coasts prior to the Iron Age, e.g. the Messapi, Iapyges, and Picenti. Strong similarities of proper names and artifacts regarding these tribes supports an Illyrian presence on the Italian coast, although, their languages appear to have been distinct from those of Illyria Proper (see Wilkes, Illyrians).
from http://de.scribd.com/doc/15826619/John-Wilkes-The-Illyrians
http://www.amazon.com/The-Illyrians-John-Wilkes/dp/0631198075

Ike
29-06-13, 14:41
hahahahha no no no bosnians croatians have no right at all to connect theirself with the illyrians becuase they are culturally and genetically 100% slavic


Without trying to be insulting, but this is as lame as talking to a third-grader.
Congratulations AA, you've successfully sent this thread to a fairytale forum (http://www.albanian-folklore.com/forum/index.php).

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 14:45
Without trying to be insulting, but this is as lame as talking to a third-grader.
Congratulations AA, you've successfully sent this thread to a fairytale forum (http://www.albanian-folklore.com/forum/index.php).

what you mean wihout insulting of course you try to insult me but in a very uncreative way
who is from the balkans knows that southslavs have along history of trying to be illyrian in search for their identity
just an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian_movement
but no i am glad that most of you today accept their slavic orgin and dont try to be what they are not like them in fyrom

Ike
29-06-13, 15:31
Sadly, but I really wasn't. It would be of great help if you would stop posting things like that on this thread.

Yetos
29-06-13, 16:49
thank you for welcoming me and no your opinon does not dissapoint me at all



i cant say much about his methods of cavalli-sforza but his not the only one which confirms the paleo-induoeuropean orgin of the albanian language i just posted him because he is the only one who named a number
actually many ancient foundings like this one can be translated to the modern albanian
no not really albanian has loanwords like any other language but the amount of it compared to the orginal albanian words is very slight



now you are talking nonsense what magical word-dismantlement? the words can be translated in modern albanian in the same notation
clearly? not at all the indoeuropean theorie of the albanian language is heavily debated by linguists
of course they have a connection and of three of the pygri tablets which were found only one is in phoenic the two others are etruscan and who says that the phoenic inscription is just a translation of the two etruscan ones if the "officials" dont know what it means?? lol
you have your translation in albanian let me research a while i will post some sources



i use "pelasgo-illyrian" as a hypernym fo all the members of this big paleo-induoeuropean or illyric family
the word pelasgian was used by ancient writters to describe everything what is pre-hellenic and the only one who lived before the hellens there were the "pelasgian" so pre-helleinc illyrian-epiriotic tribes
and of course we have a connection with the albanian one why do you talk without any knowlegde about the albanain language
here you have it: http://books.google.de/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA39&dq=greek+language+albanian+compare&hl=de&sa=X&ei=p5FIUfOJO4Lw4QSEvoGIAQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=greek%20language%20albanian%20compare&f=false



the borders of the illyrian tribes were never defiened exactly
their tribes ruled over the whole balkan in the north, parts of austria were the panonians the adriactic venti and so on, in the south the epiriotic tribes and the mesapians in italy in the east the sub-illyrian branch of the thracians

what we can say today is that all that "what we know" about the illyrio-thracian language can be perfectly connceted to the albanian one so their paleo-indeuropean or "pelasgian" connection can not be denied you can say maybe it was not like that but you can not prove it

so what is dacian? it is a subbranch of the thracians and belongs to the illyrian-thracian language family



stop using the term greek as a synonym for hellen that is unprofesional greeks or newgreeks were formed 200 years ago their connection to the hellens is vague

so again you just repeat me with other words
we just know that pelasgian words were pre-hellenic so stop comming up with theories about hitties and minoans
the hellens were formed through the mixture of paleo-indoeuropean tribes of the illyrian family like the dorians macedonians and other epiriots



really? after your post i would not dare to say that but whatever
unlike you i know exactly what i am talking about


Boring Repeating propaganda, without no scientific base in all sciences,

simply some read and listen a lot of 'crup' writers which have big imagination,

MAYBE STARSHIP ENTERPRIZE WAS PELSGO_ILLYRIAN ALSO?
Commander ADAMA? what was he?

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 20:24
Boring Repeating propaganda, without no scientific base in all sciences,

simply some read and listen a lot of 'crup' writers which have big imagination,

MAYBE STARSHIP ENTERPRIZE WAS PELSGO_ILLYRIAN ALSO?
Commander ADAMA? what was he?

you are the second greek which acuses me of doing propaganda
it maybe disturbs your world view but this are historical realities
with no scientific base? i gave you sources here again http://books.google.de/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA39&dq=greek+language+albanian+compare&hl=de&sa=X&ei=p5FIUfOJO4Lw4QSEvoGIAQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=greek%20language%20albanian%20compare&f=false

usualy the greeks claim to invented the whole world so its like a thorn in your flash that your possible ancestors the hellens are of illyrian-epiriotic orgin

5921

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 20:36
http://books.google.de/books?id=42mv_-7i2soC&pg=PA96&dq=macedonians+pelasgian&hl=de&sa=X&ei=fifPUY3AAen04QTp44GYDw&ved=0CGEQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=macedonians%20pelasgian&f=false

adamo
29-06-13, 21:21
the etruscans have been linked to pelops of anatolia. pelops was lydian or phrygian (proto-armenian) by birth. he hailed from mount simylus in modern day manisa province turkey, in what was once lydian territory, sarpedon and minos of crete had once probably had a similar origin. from western anatolia , pelops migrated to the southern peleponnese where he founded pisa. he would also found pisa in tuscany in what was at the time considered to be etruscan territory,

adamo
29-06-13, 21:28
there is no illyrian-etruscan link other than that some albanians where phrygians (bryges) themselves probably moving from anatolia through thrace to albania. kadmos's grandson laius (a similar name to laius is found in etruscan) was well loved by pelops. kadmos founded thebes in greece and had originally come from lebanon, creating a sort of possible link between etruscans, pelops the anatolian and kadmos the phoenician.

adamo
29-06-13, 21:31
the etruscans had a deffinite middle eastern link , not an albanian one ( although a minority of albanians where phrygian at some point.)

adamo
29-06-13, 21:38
i suspect an ancient luwian link between western anatolians and levantine phoenicians, an ancient middle eastern "brother" race and the etruscans deriving from this ancient turko-syrian hittite culture, as minoan and mycenean era greeks probably where as well to some degree before moving from cyprus/turkey successfully through aegean islands and into the ancient greek world

Ike
29-06-13, 21:56
you are the second greek which acuses me of doing propaganda
it maybe disturbs your world view but this are historical realities
with no scientific base? i gave you sources here again ...

I'm reading the sources, this seems quite interesting:http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3001/zk2z.jpg

It's a very good match to what we know about Kingdom of Albania in Caucasus. It also feeds my recently born doubt that most of Albanians are of J origin, while Kosovars may be of E origin.

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 22:14
I'm reading the sources, this seems quite interesting:http://img266.imageshack.us/img266/3001/zk2z.jpg

It's a very good match to what we know about Kingdom of Albania in Caucasus. It also feeds my recently born doubt that most of Albanians are of J origin, while Kosovars may be of E origin.

from which source is that? i didnt post that
and this is about the asian albania not the european one
the hellens built colonies even there
but this has nothing to do with the european albania

he is saying that the people of the asian albania came over the river euphrat http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrat
to the caucasus

here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 22:35
there is no illyrian-etruscan link other than that some albanians where phrygians (bryges) themselves probably moving from anatolia through thrace to albania. kadmos's grandson laius (a similar name to laius is found in etruscan) was well loved by pelops. kadmos founded thebes in greece and had originally come from lebanon, creating a sort of possible link between etruscans, pelops the anatolian and kadmos the phoenician.

this does not seem realistic
that armenians or phrygians came from the caucasus over the whole balkan to found the etruscans in italy lol

after italian linguists there exist a connection with the albanian-illyrian langauge and the etruscan one
and look their direct closness to illyrian tribes it is more possible that they came from illyria

5925

taken from:
5926

Athelti Albanoi
29-06-13, 22:38
5927

5928

5929

Ike
29-06-13, 22:49
from which source is that? i didnt post that
and this is about the asian albania not the european one
the hellens built colonies even there
but this has nothing to do with the european albania



It's from the source you posted. Page 48 of The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present.
Yes it's about old Albania, but why do you think you're not connected with them when you carry the same name and same haplotype?

Yetos
29-06-13, 23:09
you are the second greek which acuses me of doing propaganda
it maybe disturbs your world view but this are historical realities
with no scientific base? i gave you sources here again http://books.google.de/books?id=IJ2s9sQ9bGkC&pg=PA39&dq=greek+language+albanian+compare&hl=de&sa=X&ei=p5FIUfOJO4Lw4QSEvoGIAQ&ved=0CDMQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=greek%20language%20albanian%20compare&f=false

usualy the greeks claim to invented the whole world so its like a thorn in your flash that your possible ancestors the hellens are of illyrian-epiriotic orgin

5921

Again boring,

what is next?

after Etruscans Pelasgians Myceneans Thracians Epirotans Makedonians Montenegrins Croatians Italians Romanians etc?
who else is Illyrian? come on tell us?

Yetos
29-06-13, 23:19
the etruscans have been linked to pelops of anatolia. pelops was lydian or phrygian (proto-armenian) by birth. he hailed from mount simylus in modern day manisa province turkey, in what was once lydian territory, sarpedon and minos of crete had once probably had a similar origin. from western anatolia , pelops migrated to the southern peleponnese where he founded pisa. he would also found pisa in tuscany in what was at the time considered to be etruscan territory,

it is the oposite
Brygians (Phrygians to Atheneans) moved from Balkans to Phrygia,
Kadmos is connected with Arkado-Cypriot culure and Phillistines (Peleset)

Hellenes named Pelasgian origin mostly the Ionians and the Aeolian colonies in minor Asia
we probably speak of Hattians since we know that Athens before Dorians spoke Thyrenian and toponymes follow Hattian vocabulary.

Yetos
29-06-13, 23:26
5927

5928

5929



Hahahaha Nice Joke.

So Pelasgian had Cyrilic Alphabet? H = N ?
So Pelasgian were Slavs?

and Pelasgians also had P but proncoynced as R
Just Like the Greeks right? P = R

And what about J or ι why an L and not Phoenician djot letter?
Maybe is Γιωτα Greek Letter?

you make fantastic Jokes!!!!!!!!

have you ever thouth that H might be the Greek phthongue E? and AE could be the Greek lettering symbol AI?

Besides all I see is
ANINAS:ADNO or AHIHAS:APNO: etc

Thank you, I am still laughing
Only Albanian extra nationalist have such imagination.

Yetos
29-06-13, 23:48
from which source is that? i didnt post that
and this is about the asian albania not the european one
the hellens built colonies even there
but this has nothing to do with the european albania

he is saying that the people of the asian albania came over the river euphrat http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrat
to the caucasus

here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasian_Albania

So Now the Hellenes existed now, as what? as Illyrians? as Thracians?
since in other posts you claim that Greeks never existed.
and colonise Caucasus and name the Land Albania? hmmm


you are fantastic joke maker.

Athelti Albanoi
30-06-13, 03:42
It's from the source you posted. Page 48 of The Albanians: An Ethnic History from Prehistoric Times to the Present.
Yes it's about old Albania, but why do you think you're not connected with them when you carry the same name and same haplotype?

from which page in the book i dont belive you that you got it from there the book is about the european albania not the caucasus kingdom of albania

what "old" albania? what same haplotype?
your simple provocations bore me slav

we have nothing to do with them i dont know why they are also called albania
and we for sure share not the same genetics maybe you since you immigrated from there
and the "old" and orignal ancient albania is in europe

Athelti Albanoi
30-06-13, 03:47
So Now the Hellenes existed now, as what? as Illyrians? as Thracians?
since in other posts you claim that Greeks never existed.
and colonise Caucasus and name the Land Albania? hmmm


you are fantastic joke maker.

are you an idiot?
the hellens existed as hellens hahah what a question
the greeks and the hellens are two different worlds
the hellens are just of illyric orgin which i prooved you with the sources

you are going to much offtopic caucasus albania has nothing to do with the balkans
not at all they just have somehow also the name albania

the european albania has its name from albanopolis the illyrian tribe of the albanoi or albani
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5916&d=1372500654

Athelti Albanoi
30-06-13, 03:52
Again boring,

what is next?

after Etruscans Pelasgians Myceneans Thracians Epirotans Makedonians Montenegrins Croatians Italians Romanians etc?
who else is Illyrian? come on tell us?

do you have only boring and propagand ain your vocubulary or what??

croatians are slavic italians are italic and
romanians are mostly mixed with slavs but also part from the illyro-thracian tribe of dacians

there are many illyrian tribes search them for yourself
these are the one of direct illyrian orgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria

Yetos
30-06-13, 13:15
do you have only boring and propagand ain your vocubulary or what??

croatians are slavic italians are italic and
romanians are mostly mixed with slavs but also part from the illyro-thracian tribe of dacians

there are many illyrian tribes search them for yourself
these are the one of direct illyrian orgin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria


Boring repated unattested propaganda,

have you something knew to tell us?

Maybe Palestinians are also from Illyrian origin?

you are funny.

Yetos
30-06-13, 13:19
are you an idiot?
the hellens existed as hellens hahah what a question
the greeks and the hellens are two different worlds
the hellens are just of illyric orgin which i prooved you with the sources

you are going to much offtopic caucasus albania has nothing to do with the balkans
not at all they just have somehow also the name albania

the european albania has its name from albanopolis the illyrian tribe of the albanoi or albani
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=5916&d=1372500654


from a person which never read Homer, I am not expecting much,
only boring unattested propaganda,
Better read Homer again, he makes clear who were Mycenans and who Greeks-Hellenes
as for the rest, how certain you are?

Ike
30-06-13, 14:36
I'm calling for mods to end this discussion. This guy is starting to be obnoxious.
He uses bad words, doesn't even read what other people say, and is not open for discussion.

Taranis
30-06-13, 14:46
This thread will be locked down now.