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Anton, Bear's den
02-05-11, 11:48
Congratulations to American people :78:
Maybe I am not fan of forced democratization, but totally support them in fight with terrorism :17:

Elias2
02-05-11, 13:26
He was in Pakistan all along, no surprise there. USA needs to start befriending India, that country is so much better than the terrorist state next to it.

edao
02-05-11, 14:05
Anyone think it's a coincidence that you have all this unrest in the middle east, where regimes are killing their people and the Americans are waving their finger threatening to bomb them off the map. Now suddenly, magically somone gives Osama up.

The Pakistani government should be held to account, there is no way they didn't know he was hiding in their country, if they want to pick sides they picked the wrong one.

Regulus
02-05-11, 14:24
Congratulations to American people :78:
Maybe I am not fan of forced democratization, but totally support them in fight with terrorism :17:

Thank you for the good wishes.
It was literally the first thing that I heard over the car radio as my son got in for me to bring him to school.

Antigone
02-05-11, 15:57
It is 10yrs too late, I doubt if his death will have too much of an effect at this stage. Bin Laden was isolated and rendered irrelevant, except as a possible figurehead but there will be another in the grooming to fill his shoes.

It is interesting that the people across the Islamic world are currently opting for more freedom and a greater choice in their leadership , rather than Al Qaeda's version of antiquated idealism. Wonder what Bin Laden made of that?

edao
02-05-11, 17:17
How are they going to prove his death. Surely the world is not so nieve to believe anything the american government tell them, where is the proof. They haven't been shy in the past about releasing faces of dead targets. Already we are hearing he was buried at sea to meet Islamic law...since when did the US special forces give a dam about islamic law?

Elias2
02-05-11, 17:37
Well he was shot in the face, do you want to see a picture of a man with his head blown off?

Reinaert
02-05-11, 18:35
Haha... Those jerks dumped the dead body in the sea. Evidence gone.
And head blown off? Of course.. Could be anybody.
And BTW.. How do you know the dead man had his head blown off?

I don't believe it. The Americans goofed again.

I sense Obama had to do something to polish up his popularity.
Elections coming on? :thinking:

Rastko Pocesta
02-05-11, 22:41
Haha... Those jerks dumped the dead body in the sea. Evidence gone.
And head blown off? Of course.. Could be anybody.
And BTW.. How do you know the dead man had his head blown off?

I don't believe it. The Americans goofed again.

I sense Obama had to do something to polish up his popularity.
Elections coming on? :thinking:

We already discussed the issue on the other forum. Of course they killed him now because of the election, but he is dead, both taliban and AQ confirmed that. By the way, DNA matches.

iapetoc
03-05-11, 05:06
I don't know if Osama is dead today, and the photo is real, or dead before 10 years by a bomb, or dead cause he had problems with kidneys,
I don't know if modern taliban agree to that cause late revolts in Arabic world could be an upside down to them, or the money stoped, or they 'aggree' with US forces,

the changes in Arabic world could effect all islamic people, even to indonesia,

probably these revolts stop money to Al Qaeda, a new agreement with USA or NATO, and money of arabic world stay in its people than in trouble makers and Gun market.

I think modern Arabs know their economy, and want to share the rich of their country, than to fight and die for pan-islamization,

I 'm waiting to see what will happen to syria, yemen etc,
seems like Islam is rejecting the dictators, and eternal life presidents, but turns where?
to modern Democracy, west style? just turn faces, and politic same? to a Theocratic model states (like Iran) council of Priests?
to the traditional early Islam (sons of Muhamed to throne) ???/

edao
03-05-11, 08:46
My tabloid headline proposal is "Obama binned Osama":grin:

Seems the Americans need reminding what country they are from
"USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA! USA!"

I think its contagious maybe we should all fall into line with so much globalisation and take the American lead, here goes...

"Scotland!, UK!, Britain!, Europe!" ah nuts, guess the worlds not that black and white....:thinking:

Maciamo
03-05-11, 10:33
I have reasons to doubt the US government announcement. They said that they confirmed Osama bin Laden's identity with a DNA test. But HOW ? Did they already have his DNA before ? How did they get it ? Then more surprisingly, how did they manage to test his DNA in just a few hours, and in Pakistan, far away from high-tech DNA labs ? Besides, Pakistan denied today that bin Laden was killed in Pakistan, which means the Pakistani government was unaware of the operation and that they didn't provide technical support to test the DNA. This is all very fishy. It takes minimum one week to test DNA in proper conditions in a lab. What they claim cannot be the truth, unless Osama was not killed yesterday.

Then why would they want to byry him at sea ? Why dispose of his body as soon as possible instead of showing it to the whole world in front of the cameras ? A photo can be so easily faked nowadays that it has no value as a proof. It's harder to deny when thousands of independent journalists from all over the world all take videos from the actual body.

edao
03-05-11, 11:55
It's also really odd how they are telling everyone that Obama was watching the assault live and releasing photos of him looking nervous watching the footage. I have never seen any government release this kind of information, what would the purpose be?

Do they think if they release footage of the president viewing a fictional event that should remove any doubt that it happened?

source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13263426)

Antigone
03-05-11, 15:17
Not only is it suspicious but the more reports come out, the more sick and twisted the whole episode seems to be. Plus the gloating and celebrations at another's death, combined with unecessary tales of cowardice before dying. It is now a stomach turner, typical of the US to go overboard and lose whatever brownie points they may have originally earned.

Regulus
03-05-11, 16:06
OK, I'll come clean - he's sitting in my family room watching daytime TV with me.

I think that for the most part I have respected the fact that this is a European forum and have consequently held my tongue when I see the usual anti-US comments.

I certainly expected all kinds of denial that Bin laden is in fact dead. For the record, if we just wanted to say that he was dead, we would have been more likely to have hit the bloody compound with a Cruise missile. (I'm would not be surprised if many here protested against the installation of those by Reagan in the 80's)

Now, in addition to all the conspiracy theories, I have to see a complaint we are just too jubilant over here about his death. The self-righteous attitudes displayed here are often insufferable. Some people are just unbelievable.

I have no doubt that many will be happy to see me go and will, at best, say good riddance to me.

Enjoy each other's company.

One last thing to Anton, Bears Den: Thanks again for your wishes. You confirmed my personal belief that George W. Bush’s greatest foreign policy error was failing to forge a strong friendship/partnership with post-communist Russia. That was a major failure and a missed opportunity to work together.

Antigone
03-05-11, 18:12
[Now, in addition to all the conspiracy theories, I have to see a complaint we are just too jubilant over here about his death. The self-righteous attitudes displayed here are often insufferable. Some people are just unbelievable.]

Well I made the same complaint when some in Islamic countries were celebrating the collapse of the Twin Towers Regulus. Would you have called me self-righteous then?

I apologise if my opinion offends you, but I do not see cause for jubilation in anyone's death. Bin Laden has paid for his crimes, anything further is unecessary.

Elias2
03-05-11, 19:30
How did he pay for his crimes antigone? he deserved what he got.

Antigone
03-05-11, 19:57
Isn't death the ultimate punishment for any crime?

I agree, he deserved what he got. I don't agree with the celebration and gloating side of it, if that is the way we now behave then it makes us as bad as the extremists who celebrate the deaths of their victims.

Dagne
03-05-11, 20:37
I think Osama should have been put on trial. It was told (CNN) that he did not have any weapon on him, and thus shooting him instead of arresting and bringing to court is just not right.

Elias2
03-05-11, 21:46
Isn't death the ultimate punishment for any crime?

I agree, he deserved what he got. I don't agree with the celebration and gloating side of it, if that is the way we now behave then it makes us as bad as the extremists who celebrate the deaths of their victims.

The celebrations arn't because he was killed but because of 10 long years later they got him in one way or another. If he was captured alive the celebrations would have been the same.

edao
03-05-11, 21:48
I agree, he deserved what he got. I don't agree with the celebration and gloating side of it, if that is the way we now behave then it makes us as bad as the extremists who celebrate the deaths of their victims.

I agree, the celebrations were unfortunate. It's hard to condem the Arabs celebrating in the streets after terrorist attacks and burning countries flags when the Americans take such joy from seeing a terrorist murdered.

Americans want to talk about the tragedy of 911 and the people killed in the towers, but to then go into the middle east and kill tens of thousands of civilians in illegal wars. The British Government are just as guilty so it's not a purely anti-american sentiment.

As for Regulus you can't storm off every time you don't like what people are saying. The whole point of debate is to argue your point of view and that's what forums are all about.

Reinaert
03-05-11, 22:03
Haha.. I doubt it more and more. Should we believe the story because Obama tells us so?
I think not!

Where is the evidence of anything that could prove they are not lying?

For instance.. Corpus delicti flown about 1800 km to dump it into the sea from a US Navy Aircraft Carrier?
With what are you flying the body bag? A helicopter? If an airplane, can it land on the Carrier?
Or did they take the dead body in a helicopter, looked for sharks somewhere in the Northern Arabian Sea, and dumped it there.
Still not plausible. You don't want to get the body washed ashore.
So, I think the entire sea grave story is bogus.

Another thing is the DNA test. Again bogus. Nobody can do such a test in such a short time.
You need to have a specialized lab to do that. And why should you do that, if you were so certain it's OBL?

My best guess is, the entire story was staged.
The compound was near a Pakistan Military Academy, so it would serve as an officer training center.

Pakistani weren't told about the action?
They aren't that daffed. Of course they would register the movement of airplanes and helicopters.
Again incredible part of a lousy story.

The President watching video of CIA...
Well.. They did Jurassic Park..
A movie to fool the President would be a piece of cake, and they had plenty of time to do it.

And another thing..
If OBL would have been alive in the last 9 years or so, why didn't he do us a favor, and appear on video with at least some recent newspapers? Very easy trick that even boy scouts know... ;)

But the main point is.. In murder investigations there is no murder without a dead body.
So.. There is no dead OBL. So .. It bloody never happened.

sparkey
03-05-11, 22:17
Another thing is the DNA test. Again bogus. Nobody can do such a test in such a short time.
You need to have a specialized lab to do that.

From here (http://abclocal.go.com/ktrk/story?section=news/health&id=8107713):

Two to three hours would be easy enough; it's possible with a special effort you can get under that time somewhat.

Also see: How do you ID a dead Osama? (http://www.scientificamerican.com/blog/post.cfm?id=how-do-you-id-a-dead-osama-anyway-2011-05-02)

Angela
03-05-11, 23:07
It's also really odd how they are telling everyone that Obama was watching the assault live and releasing photos of him looking nervous watching the footage. I have never seen any government release this kind of information, what would the purpose be?

Do they think if they release footage of the president viewing a fictional event that should remove any doubt that it happened?

source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13263426)

You obviously are not familiar with American news coverage of such events. The release of such pictures in the U.S. is so standard as to have become banal. I would have been surprised were they not released.

You might reference all the pictures released of meetings in the secure room under the White House in the days after 9/11, or all the way back to pictures taken of President Kennedy during the Bay of Pigs. Oh wait, I know, that's just proof that every photo of every action taken by Americans is fake, and part of some vast disinformation campaign. There was no botched invasion of the Bay of Pigs, no Operation Iran, no Blackhawk Down. What a relief.

Famously, some presidents were so naive as to record every conversation conducted in the Oval Office. Richard Nixon, Watergate? Hello? His failure to erase the tapes cost him his presidency.(Which I was actually quite happy about.) Being so much more experienced in deceit, I'm sure no European leader would ever have made such a mistake.

BTW, I hardly think the picture released flatters President Obama in any way. He looks very diminished and overwhelmed to me, and far too frightened. Had I been there, I would hardly have been reassured or calmed by my leader. To be able to project concern and strength at the same time is a difficult but necessary skill in a leader, it seems to me, and I don't see it there.

I will just briefly add that if someone is inclined to see conspiracies under every bush, nothing either I, or anyone else, will say, will ever convince them otherwise. There are Americans also predisposed to this kind of paranoia, but Europeans seem to be far worse. Perhaps it's a function of their general feeling of powerlessness with regard to their political fate. What conspiracy theorists willfully ignore is the fact that no one is in control, everyone talks, and every government run by man is so incompetent that it is a mystery how the garbage gets picked up. Oh wait, it isn't picked up in some places!

I will also just generally say that every time I think the American media is incredibly sloppy and agenda driven, I just have to read some European media. Pakistan is denying he was there and has been Killed? Uh, I don't think so. I just saw the Pakistani ambassador to the U.S. on CNN. The only thing he was denying was that they knew he was there. The take-away from all of that is that either they were complicit or way more incompetent than is the norm.

As to the DNA, does anyone really believe that in ten years no DNA has been collected? For one thing, the FBI got a court order to take a sample from the body of Bin Ladin's sister after she died in Boston where she had been treated for cancer. But don't let facts get in the way of your speculation.

edao
03-05-11, 23:47
@Angela have you actually seen the pictures?
http://i.imgur.com/KxuGl.jpg

Just kidding!:grin:

Maciamo
03-05-11, 23:51
A new post (http://spittoon.23andme.com/2011/05/03/dna-analysis-stars-in-gwat/) on 23andMe's blog looked awfully like a reply to my comment here about Bin Laden's DNA. They point out that DNA fingerprinting could be done in just two hours. But that still doesn't satisfy me, because either they would have needed to send the sample back to the States (over 12 hours away from Pakistan), or US troops were purposefully carrying a cumbersome DNA testing equipment with them to Pakistan, knowing fully well that they were going to kill Bin Laden and test his DNA. That seems too far-fetched and convoluted to be plausible. They have been hunting the man for 9.5 years; how could they be so sure that they were going to get him now ?

Then, why would they need to go through such trouble with the DNA test when they could just as well have shown the body to the global press ? Everybody knows Bin Laden's face. It would have been more convincing than a hypothetical DNA test (it could just as well be a lie, as nobody has access to the results, and even if we did, nobody has Bin Laden's DNA to verify the presumed body's authenticity).

Why get rid of the body so quickly and in a place where it cannot be recovered (at sea) ?

Anyway, I don't think that Bin Laden's death is going to make a whole lot of difference. There are tens of millions of fanatical Muslims who hate the West. Bin Laden is just a celebrity, not to say a scapegoat, but his death is unlikely to deter fanatics to commit other terrorist acts in the name of religion. I do not feel that the world has become safer because one man is dead. That would be over-exaggerating his power.

iapetoc
04-05-11, 00:02
OK, I'll come clean - he's sitting in my family room watching daytime TV with me.

I think that for the most part I have respected the fact that this is a European forum and have consequently held my tongue when I see the usual anti-US comments.

I certainly expected all kinds of denial that Bin laden is in fact dead. For the record, if we just wanted to say that he was dead, we would have been more likely to have hit the bloody compound with a Cruise missile. (I'm would not be surprised if many here protested against the installation of those by Reagan in the 80's)

Now, in addition to all the conspiracy theories, I have to see a complaint we are just too jubilant over here about his death. The self-righteous attitudes displayed here are often insufferable. Some people are just unbelievable.

I have no doubt that many will be happy to see me go and will, at best, say good riddance to me.

Enjoy each other's company.

One last thing to Anton, Bears Den: Thanks again for your wishes. You confirmed my personal belief that George W. Bush’s greatest foreign policy error was failing to forge a strong friendship/partnership with post-communist Russia. That was a major failure and a missed opportunity to work together.






Regulus it was not only twin towers, but London Subway and other in Europe that were bombed,
altough USA-CIA is the Boss, it is NATO that take decisions, and to NATO, want or not, All EU is inside almost,

But the case, the exact time, and the operation, hmmmmm stings for me,
looks like a movie- or a scenario under command for a movie production,
the time is important to me,
the exact time that kandafi bombed, Syria is on loose and tanks massacre people, a ghost from the past, just shot in the head?????

hmmmm
maybe tommorow we see a treaty among Palaistinians and Israelites!!!!!!
and why president anounce a simple military operation,
would it be the same in WW2 if example kill Japan's emperror?
Does someone consider that Osama is -was such a person, a country leader etc, So President of USA to read a military post?

I thing the Osama death, is not exactly as we have been told,
I don't believe that he is alive, But I doubt the story they tell us,
If Osama is alive today, then he probably has the face of Elvis, and live somewhere in south Africa, South America etc, or in USA, the hole case seems screenplay for me,
By that I don't want to decrease fighting skills of US army, but sometimes politic are over,
the next days will show us more light, or maybe 10-20 years after, when that photo complete the purpose that has been created.

Angela
04-05-11, 00:03
@Angela have you actually seen the pictures?
http://i.imgur.com/KxuGl.jpg

Just kidding!:grin:

Living here in the U.S., I couldn't have avoided that photo if I wanted to. :smile:A picture is worth a thousand words, indeed. Some doctored shot! I think he ought to fire his whole team for releasing this.

Angela
04-05-11, 00:35
Well I made the same complaint when some in Islamic countries were celebrating the collapse of the Twin Towers Regulus. Would you have called me self-righteous then?

I apologise if my opinion offends you, but I do not see cause for jubilation in anyone's death. Bin Laden has paid for his crimes, anything further is unecessary.

Regulus isn't the only one who is offended.

In my case, perhaps it comes of having gone to far too many funerals for fathers of young children those horrible weeks after 9/11. (BTW, those films are mostly of young university students).

And yes, it's self-righteous. Did the parents and grandparents of some of the posters on this site cheer when they heard Hitler was dead? Would it have mattered to them if he had been killed by an allied soldier instead of committing suicide because he was surrounded? I know a lot of Italians cheered the execution of Mussolini, the manner of which I don't condone, and neither do I condone the execution of the idiot girl who accompanied him. Or are all Europeans, especially young Europeans, so much more evolved now a days?.

And over and beyond that, I find the comparison between the murder of innocent civilians going to the office like every other day, and a surgical strike taking out a terrorist leader personally responsible for the deaths of thousands to be morally myopic.

sparkey
04-05-11, 01:12
Sorry to pick apart your post, Maciamo, but it has a lot to respond to in it...


A new post (http://spittoon.23andme.com/2011/05/03/dna-analysis-stars-in-gwat/) on 23andMe's blog looked awfully like a reply to my comment here about Bin Laden's DNA.

I assume you meant my post? I was responding to Reinaert rather than you, I didn't realize that you agreed with him. I should have read your post more carefully. 23andMe was not my source, incidentally, but it looks like they concur.


But that still doesn't satisfy me, because either they would have needed to send the sample back to the States (over 12 hours away from Pakistan), or US troops were purposefully carrying a cumbersome DNA testing equipment with them to Pakistan, knowing fully well that they were going to kill Bin Laden and test his DNA.

#2, I assume. And they could also do DNA testing if they captured him, so this doesn't imply that they were planning on killing him no matter what. I doubt it's particularly cumbersome compared to some of the military equipment they would have been carrying.


Then, why would they need to go through such trouble with the DNA test when they could just as well have shown the body to the global press ? Everybody knows Bin Laden's face. It would have been more convincing than a hypothetical DNA test (it could just as well be a lie, as nobody has access to the results, and even if we did, nobody has Bin Laden's DNA to verify the presumed body's authenticity).

Somebody can look like somebody else, but only a Bin Laden can match DNA with Bin Laden's sister.


Anyway, I don't think that Bin Laden's death is going to make a whole lot of difference. There are tens of millions of fanatical Muslims who hate the West. Bin Laden is just a celebrity, not to say a scapegoat, but his death is unlikely to deter fanatics to commit other terrorist acts in the name of religion. I do not feel that the world has become safer because one man is dead. That would be over-exaggerating his power.

It's even possible that there could be blowback from radical Muslims who want retaliation. His death will be thought of as a martyrdom, regardless of the US efforts to properly dispose of the body.

Personally, I'm not one to rejoice over death, I have serious qualms with US foreign policy, and I have no doubt that the US government spin machine is at work right now, trying to influence opinions in both the West and the Muslim world. But I have little doubt that Osama is dead.

how yes no 2
04-05-11, 01:42
I do not see much gain from Bin Laden's death. It is on other hand likely pretext for new 11/09...

I've heard India was urgently buying weapons some time ago.... perhaps they found out Bin Laden's death will happen now, and that it is likely to trigger instability in Pakistan.....however, I expect that this will lead to something different...

LeBrok
04-05-11, 05:39
You obviously are not familiar with American news coverage of such events. The release of such pictures in the U.S. is so standard as to have become banal. I would have been surprised were they not released.

You might reference all the pictures released of meetings in the secure room under the White House in the days after 9/11, or all the way back to pictures taken of President Kennedy during the Bay of Pigs. Oh wait, I know, that's just proof that every photo of every action taken by Americans is fake, and part of some vast disinformation campaign. There was no botched invasion of the Bay of Pigs, no Operation Iran, no Blackhawk Down. What a relief.

Famously, some presidents were so naive as to record every conversation conducted in the Oval Office. Richard Nixon, Watergate? Hello? His failure to erase the tapes cost him his presidency.(Which I was actually quite happy about.) Being so much more experienced in deceit, I'm sure no European leader would ever have made such a mistake.

BTW, I hardly think the picture released flatters President Obama in any way. He looks very diminished and overwhelmed to me, and far too frightened. Had I been there, I would hardly have been reassured or calmed by my leader. To be able to project concern and strength at the same time is a difficult but necessary skill in a leader, it seems to me, and I don't see it there.

I will just briefly add that if someone is inclined to see conspiracies under every bush, nothing either I, or anyone else, will say, will ever convince them otherwise. There are Americans also predisposed to this kind of paranoia, but Europeans seem to be far worse. Perhaps it's a function of their general feeling of powerlessness with regard to their political fate. What conspiracy theorists willfully ignore is the fact that no one is in control, everyone talks, and every government run by man is so incompetent that it is a mystery how the garbage gets picked up. Oh wait, it isn't picked up in some places!

I will also just generally say that every time I think the American media is incredibly sloppy and agenda driven, I just have to read some European media. Pakistan is denying he was there and has been Killed? Uh, I don't think so. I just saw the Pakistani ambassador to the U.S. on CNN. The only thing he was denying was that they knew he was there. The take-away from all of that is that either they were complicit or way more incompetent than is the norm.

As to the DNA, does anyone really believe that in ten years no DNA has been collected? For one thing, the FBI got a court order to take a sample from the body of Bin Ladin's sister after she died in Boston where she had been treated for cancer. But don't let facts get in the way of your speculation.

Beautiful writeup Angela!


Killing and throwing Osama's body to ocean was a brilliant idea. There was no need for a trial that would cost many millions of dollars, because he confessed to the crime in many interviews and all clues pointed to him too.
Leaving body dead in Pakistan would mean that followers will build mausoleum with possible cult and pilgrimages to his grave. Throwing him to the ocean was genius, meaning that his followers will never find the body.
The mistake would be to bring his body to US and become even a bigger target for terrorists which would love to free his body from the "devil". Unnecessary risk avoided.
Body was, sank/buried within proper time for muslim customs therefore not angering too many muslims, if there are any indifferent left. :grin:
A+ for Obama.

As to conspiracy theorists, so many on this forum. What would be the goal of faking Osama death? What would US accomplish? The consequences of Osama death turning a lie would be few folds bigger. The reward doesn't justify risk of failure. Just this logic tells me that it must be true.
Off course I cannot be 100% sure, but the odds of this to be true are overwhelming, so I'll go with them.

For enthusiasts of conspiracies. How about a rouge US general in CIA, who hates Obama, fakes killing Osama bin Laden. Whole story turns bogus a week later. Obama takes responsibility and incompetence for this and resigns.
Good one?

Antigone
04-05-11, 07:43
Regulus isn't the only one who is offended.

In my case, perhaps it comes of having gone to far too many funerals for fathers of young children those horrible weeks after 9/11. (BTW, those films are mostly of young university students).

And yes, it's self-righteous. Did the parents and grandparents of some of the posters on this site cheer when they heard Hitler was dead? Would it have mattered to them if he had been killed by an allied soldier instead of committing suicide because he was surrounded? I know a lot of Italians cheered the execution of Mussolini, the manner of which I don't condone, and neither do I condone the execution of the idiot girl who accompanied him. Or are all Europeans, especially young Europeans, so much more evolved now a days?.

And over and beyond that, I find the comparison between the murder of innocent civilians going to the office like every other day, and a surgical strike taking out a terrorist leader personally responsible for the deaths of thousands to be morally myopic.

And London and Madrid and Bali don't forget. The US is not the only country who has lost citizens.

You're now equating Bin Laden with Hitler and Mussolini? Wow, that's some step up for a madman reduced to hiding in caves for much of 10yrs. But the difference is that the deaths of Hitler and Mussolini actually meant the end of war in Europe, the death of Bin Laden means next to nothing. He did not plan, organise or mastermind attacks, the person who does all that is still out there.......somewhere.

Morally myopic? Mmmm interesting choice of words when you talk about the deaths of a couple of thousand innocent US civilians going about their everyday life. Especially compared all those (how many thousands now?) innocent civilians just going about everday life Iraq and Afghanistan who have lost not only their lives but (in some cases) their whole families, homes, jobs and, what the hell, their countries too. It is actually quite offensive that the US can bang on about American deaths without any recognition that others have lost so much more as a result of that horrible day. Are Americans somehow more special than anyone else?

Like I said, I don't agree with the celebration of any death.

iapetoc
04-05-11, 08:39
And London and Madrid and Bali don't forget. The US is not the only country who has lost citizens.

You're now equating Bin Laden with Hitler and Mussolini? Wow, that's some step up for a madman reduced to hiding in caves for much of 10yrs. But the difference is that the deaths of Hitler and Mussolini actually meant the end of war in Europe, the death of Bin Laden means next to nothing. He did not plan, organise or mastermind attacks, the person who does all that is still out there.......somewhere.

Morally myopic? Mmmm interesting choice of words when you talk about the deaths of a couple of thousand innocent US civilians going about their everyday life. Especially compared all those (how many thousands now?) innocent civilians just going about everday life Iraq and Afghanistan who have lost not only their lives but (in some cases) their whole families, homes, jobs and, what the hell, their countries too. It is actually quite offensive that the US can bang on about American deaths without any recognition that others have lost so much more as a result of that horrible day. Are Americans somehow more special than anyone else?

Like I said, I don't agree with the celebration of any death.



Hmmmm

let me see and realize,

Before 9/11 the Usa people were not in mood to invade Iraq,
Bush elder Did not invade in that scale, Afraid? of Arabs or a return of the Vietnam Ghost 'political acts, Bring our Boys Back'? or the cost of such operation

so the case of 9/11 could be also organised by some agents, or USA gov knew about it, as many conspiracy movies say. so feel that they have to invade,
In that case, today interest is in Syria, Libya, Yemen,
Afganistan troops offer less there than in Lybia or Syria,
Money to send new troops are many, and the cost of Having troops in Afganistan ,Iraq, Balkans, where ever else is Huge,

As I said the problem for Osama Death for me is the exact Time,
And seems like in 10-20 days I will be true, I hope,

Instead of charging USA tax payers, to send new and more troops to Lybia, Syria,
Obama is retrieving the troops from Afganistan, so to move them in Mediteranneo to be able to control-invade Lybia or Syria,

If in 10-20 days USA removes 000 of soldier, and starts to send them in Lybia, Syria,
then the whole case is just a low money operation, and Osama's death as we have seen is a screenplay,



Beautiful writeup Angela!


Killing and throwing Osama's body to ocean was a brilliant idea. There was no need for a trial that would cost many millions of dollars, because he confessed to the crime in many interviews and all clues pointed to him too.
Leaving body dead in Pakistan would mean that followers will build mausoleum with possible cult and pilgrimages to his grave. Throwing him to the ocean was genius, meaning that his followers will never find the body.
The mistake would be to bring his body to US and become even a bigger target for terrorists which would love to free his body from the "devil". Unnecessary risk avoided.
Body was, sank/buried within proper time for muslim customs therefore not angering too many muslims, if there are any indifferent left. :grin:
A+ for Obama.

As to conspiracy theorists, so many on this forum. What would be the goal of faking Osama death? What would US accomplish? The consequences of Osama death turning a lie would be few folds bigger. The reward doesn't justify risk of failure. Just this logic tells me that it must be true.
Off course I cannot be 100% sure, but the odds of this to be true are overwhelming, so I'll go with them.

For enthusiasts of conspiracies. How about a rouge US general in CIA, who hates Obama, fakes killing Osama bin Laden. Whole story turns bogus a week later. Obama takes responsibility and incompetence for this and resigns.
Good one?



remember few years before the economical crisis in USA, with some banking systems collapse,
and how much cost to USA tax payers having troops abroad, and crisis in their own lands,

Simply it is clever move, to close Al Qaeda File, and start Lybia or Syria File,

just think that in Yemen and somalia pirates, how much cost to global merchant ships.

for me the case of Osama is a quick, close Afganistan case, and start another,

in case that some are offended
I would say don't trust politician that much, especially when they use Media,
remember that modern politician are actors, they have they are able to persue you that white is black, especially when using media,

for me it is more possible the Osama was dead 3-9 years before, and yesterday was the proper day,
or co-operates with some CIA agents and lives with Elvis face,
than was killed yesterday.

iapetoc
04-05-11, 09:10
Regulus isn't the only one who is offended.

In my case, perhaps it comes of having gone to far too many funerals for fathers of young children those horrible weeks after 9/11. (BTW, those films are mostly of young university students).

And yes, it's self-righteous. Did the parents and grandparents of some of the posters on this site cheer when they heard Hitler was dead? Would it have mattered to them if he had been killed by an allied soldier instead of committing suicide because he was surrounded? I know a lot of Italians cheered the execution of Mussolini, the manner of which I don't condone, and neither do I condone the execution of the idiot girl who accompanied him. Or are all Europeans, especially young Europeans, so much more evolved now a days?.

And over and beyond that, I find the comparison between the murder of innocent civilians going to the office like every other day, and a surgical strike taking out a terrorist leader personally responsible for the deaths of thousands to be morally myopic.



Hmmmm

let me see and realize,

Before 9/11 the Usa people were not in mood to invade Iraq,
Bush elder Did not invade in that scale, Afraid? of Arabs or a return of the Vietnam Ghost 'political acts, Bring our Boys Back'? or the cost of such operation

so the case of 9/11 could be also organised by some agents, or USA gov knew about it, as many conspiracy movies say. so feel that they have to invade,
In that case, today interest is in Syria, Libya, Yemen,
Afganistan troops offer less there than in Lybia or Syria,
Money to send new troops are many, and the cost of Having troops in Afganistan ,Iraq, Balkans, where ever else is Huge,

As I said the problem for Osama Death for me is the exact Time,
And seems like in 10-20 days I will be true, I hope,

Instead of charging USA tax payers, to send new and more troops to Lybia, Syria,
Obama is retrieving the troops from Afganistan, so to move them in Mediteranneo to be able to control-invade Lybia or Syria,

If in 10-20 days USA removes 000 of soldier, and starts to send them in Lybia, Syria,
then the whole case is just a low money operation, and Osama's death as we have seen is a screenplay,


remember few years before the economical crisis in USA, with some bank collapse,
and how much cost to USA tax payers having troops abroad, and crisis in their own lands,

Simply it is clever move, to close Al Qaeda File, and start Lybia or Syria File,

just think that in Yemen and somalia pirates, how much cost to global merchant ships.


Now about my feelings,

I only could say Relief, I don't feel Happy Victorius and Glorius,
the Osama could be a modern Jean D' Arc.
Jean was pain in the ass for English, France, And Pope of Rome,
Osama was pain in Ass for Russians (ex Ussr inavsion) USAers, and perhaps some Muslim Leaders,
maybe Osama wanted to create a modern Muslim Monk style dogma, an idealist, that wanted to turn back to 7th century,
Nobody knows exactly, but surely many of his followers can be considered Terrorists,
since one is living a A model of Life, another must Follow than Model?
I Don't know about Western style is ok or the best, But I accept that is more open to different people and dogmas, than a theocratic forcing system that forces woman to be hidden etc
I don't know if he was Theoritical, a prophet of Muslims, or a true terrorist,
No matter how, I feel that islamic world is turning page, and perhaps the time of announce is about Orthodox of Islam to quit actions, since their Human model is dead,

so the exact timing, serves 4
1 the prestige of Obama,
2 the close case and call back troops of Afganistan to send them else,
3 to depress Orthodox Islamist, and show to Arabic president-tyrants that must accept
changes, and free will of people.
4 that invasion times are over since leader is dead, so they go back to 1970-80 peace times,

remember that each invasion cause a huge devastation of immigrants to Europe,

Jean was executed, althought had a trial

LeBrok
04-05-11, 09:18
Look at this, already a dedicated page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reactions_to_the_death_of_Osama_bin_Laden

What surprises me is a lack of big manifestation against US in middle east. Is muslim world still in big shock? Or maybe they didn't care for Osama anymore and felt more of relieve that he's gone?



Like I said, I don't agree with the celebration of any death.

Come on, let people celebrate in this case, it's good for unity. Besides, I'm sure you'll find cultures recent or in past, celebrating with joy death of people. After all they believe that deceased go to enjoy everlasting, great life in heaven. What's sad about this?

Aconform
04-05-11, 11:15
I hate in general conspiracies theories… but the manor this operation was conducted is a conspiracy makers wet dream.

Osama was half dead old man with huge health problems. Killing him has a huge gift to him. Now he stands as one that fought to the end… rather then an old sad man in prison.

It does not make any sense at all to get rid of the body so fast. Now Osama is a mythical ghost or a hero to the terrorists.

As with all operations sins 911 US fails again in a big way.

Antigone
04-05-11, 13:26
Come on, let people celebrate in this case, it's good for unity. Besides, I'm sure you'll find cultures recent or in past, celebrating with joy death of people. After all they believe that deceased go to enjoy everlasting, great life in heaven. What said about this?

Well if OBL's death meant the end of terrorism, the collapse of AQ and all it stood for then celebration would be understandable. But all his killing was about is revenge and humiliation, first we are told he died cowering behind a woman and today it is said that he was unarmed and wasn't using his wife as a shield. So, what it boils down to is merely execution without trial, what's to celebrate with that?

LeBrok
04-05-11, 17:32
I guess, for millions that rejoice, the justice happened. I was more happy than not hearing the news, though didn't care much about this. Hearing about death of anyone that wants to destroy my way of life, my freedoms, my western values I'm happy too.

Reinaert
04-05-11, 17:54
I guess after the Peace Nobel Prize for Obama,
he will get an Oscar for the best fiction movie of 2011! :laughing:

edao
06-05-11, 22:27
Al-Qaeda has confirmed the death of its leader, Osama Bin Laden, according to a statement attributed to the group and posted on jihadist internet forums. source (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-south-asia-13313201)

Thank god for that, it's good to have all doubt removed about his death. I mean the statement attributed to a group of people who are awfully hard to pin down was good, but the clincher for me was the forum posting on a jihadist website. We'll thats me sold.:satisfied:


How stupid do the American Goverment think we are. A post on a forum is enough to say Al-Qaeda have confirmed his death. Well if that is how the world works we should start using this to our advantage.

This is a forum lets start making statements and randomly attribute them to organisations we have no affiliation with. Apparently the Western media is quite taken with it.

Mzungu mchagga
06-05-11, 23:55
Oh wow, I've never seen this forum so violently split into two halves as now.

Both sides seem somehow reasonable to me. A lot of the published information about Osama's death is somewhat missing it's logic. And so is the sense of simulating his death!

LeBrok
07-05-11, 03:30
Conspiracy theorists, revise your logic! This doesn't include Reinaert, he's beyond hope. I'm sure he will still deny Osama's death. What do we call it, perseverance or ....?

Carlitos
07-05-11, 03:35
The Spanish president Zapatero applauds U.S.A. for the murder of Osama Been Laden and the next day allegedly forced the Spanish constitutional court to be legally allowed in upcoming municipal elections by allegedly pro-ETA political party Bildu, please someone help us! we have a government that is the number one enemy of the Spanish, which Europe does not allow Bildu is in Europe!

Melusine
07-05-11, 04:35
Reinaert:

You should get an Oscar for:

The biggist FOOL ,

Biggist misoginist

Biggist racist

in the WORLD

and Maciamo: you disappoint with your bias on this thread . as an "administrator" of this forum

Melusine
07-05-11, 06:15
BTW: Just a little reminder to Y'all. There are thousands of US soldiers based in Afganistan (right across the border from Pakistan and where it just quite probable where the stealth Helicopers flew in and out of for their mission) that have DNA testing equipment and labs. DAHH!!!! They did not have to fly all the way to the USA for results. Also on the Battleship Vinson, does anyone in the world "think" that there is no DNA lab aboard???

We are not flying Kites nor steering canoes folks.

Proud to be an American, Melusine

Reinaert
07-05-11, 10:45
Well well.. Using bad words won't do you any good.
And they prove your arguments aren't very strong.

BTW.. OBL confirmed dead by an Al Qaeda website..
Who says so? Al Qaeda website could be made by CIA agents.

And it's biggest... not biggist.

DNA lab on board of a Navy ship? Don't make me laugh!!
Than they probably also have a video studio to produce fiction movies.
Movies like were shown to the President... :snicker:

And of course they also have a training facility and drugs lab
for the next American winner of the "Tour de France"! :laughing:

And another thing:
Under the Bush administration the American troops wouldn't even have arrested OBL even if he would be
crossing the Arabian sea on a waterbike!

Proud to be European, Reinaert

edao
07-05-11, 12:14
I'm not saying he's not dead, I'm just questioning the story the US are putting forward.
If they had done what they claim I think it would have been dealt with completely differently.

With Osama out the way its a Mexican that becomes the US No. 1 target. Do you think the US media will give as much coverage to drugs as they do to terrorism? Despite the fact the damage of drugs to the American people is far greater than anything international terrorism has ever done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joaquin_Guzman_Loera

iapetoc
07-05-11, 13:24
Proud to be an American, Melusine


that is the point,

you are proud for what? for shooting an old unarmed man at age of Mathusalla and with out judge??? and quick hide body in sea bottom?

:shocked: :shocked:

well I am not USAer, but If I was I wiil for Indipedence Day, or contribution in WW2 or many others,
but that? :useless: :useless: :useless:

I said before, I only feel that an agony, or a fear is gone, nothing more,
time, situations in midlle East and N Africa, and many other, is the main base for conspiracies,
The whole case stings, and tomorrow or in 2-3 years that will learn more about, then we will discuss this thread again.

for me simply the boss of the Big Boss of Huge BOSS NATO make a mistake by announcing he himself the case, that is why the case stings.

if President who is to sign Treaties or starts wars, make him self a military reporter, or a news caster, by reading a military report, then .... something is not ok.

I wonder who announced the End of the WW2 in USA and who announced the death of Hitler,
just wonder.

It is wise for a King, a President, to announce situations, treaties etc, but not the death-kill of an enemy,
I believe the case is totaly different than we have been told, and they Used Obama to take advantage of President prestige, to persuade us, or my previus post, that Usa is back from Afgan for Mediteraneo.

Anton, Bear's den
07-05-11, 14:49
@Angela have you actually seen the pictures?
http://i.imgur.com/KxuGl.jpg

Just kidding!:grin:

Maybe Obama just shot Bin Laden in PS3 video game and after said to the whole world that leader of Al-Qaeda is dead? :lmao:

Don't understand the point of some people here that Americans were obliged to capture Bin Laden and judge him in the court. Bin Laden was a fanatic which dreamed about Islamic caliphate with medieval Sharia laws and raved about the war with "infidels", killed around 3000 people at 9/11. World became better with his death.

Although I can not disagree that it's pretty strange that they buried his body in the sea and don't show photos :grin:

edao
07-05-11, 15:04
Bin Laden killed around 3000 people at 9/11.


9/11 was a horrific act of terrorism and I do not defend it or those who were involved in it.
I feel sorry for the loss felt by the friends and family of the 3,000 people who died.

Now lets look at what the American response was to this act. Have a look at the figures below and tell me it is justifiable. I'm not saying people didn't need to be brought to justice, but what the American government has done in the middle east is monstrous. In terms of the murder of innocents the American Government is the biggest agent of terror we face today. You cannot argue with the statistics.

http://i52.tinypic.com/21aebr8.png

Elias2
07-05-11, 15:20
You can argue about who caused the deaths of all of those people. Let me give you a hint, not america.

Anton, Bear's den
07-05-11, 15:23
9/11 was a horrific act of terrorism and I do not defend it or those who were involved in it.
I feel sorry for the loss felt by the friends and family of the 3,000 people who died.

Now lets look at what the American response was to this act. Have a look at the figures below and tell me it is justifiable. I'm not saying people didn't need to be brought to justice, but what the American government has done in the middle east is monstrous. In terms of the murder of innocents the American Government is the biggest agent of terror we face today. You cannot argue with the statistics.

http://i52.tinypic.com/21aebr8.png

I agree, but that already other issue of Bush, his friends neoconservatives and other imperialists with their ideology of forced democratization.
I am just glad that Bin Laden is dead.

Melusine
07-05-11, 15:57
Osama Bin Laden, born March 10, 1957. Old man, really at age 54??????????????.

All of Europe and Russia, are FREE today because of the USA's help in WW2. Study history, and perhaps you all won't bite the hand that "freed you". There is plenty of aniti-USA sentiment on this Europe Forum, because of historical "ignorance" and current "envy" of the USA. The UK were the only "other" countryl that put their "money and men where their mouths were during WW2.

edao
07-05-11, 16:03
You can argue about who caused the deaths of all of those people. Let me give you a hint, not america.

I take your point, it would be unfair to say all those deaths were directly caused by the American military. Would they have died if there had been no invasion, this was a war started by the Americans?

In 9/11 no one really cares about steel and concrete, it wasn't the buildings being destroyed but the loss of human lives that appalled people. American joy and celebration of Osama's death is because of a loss of life they attribute to him. So really this is all about innocents being murdered?

If that was the case you'd share my point of view, but the fact is there is something else at play here, racism, tribalism, whatever you want to call it. You are happy to see Arabs murdered in their 10s of thousands either directly by the American government or indirectly by the fallout of the war they started. 3,000 odd Americans die and it's an event to be marked in human history forever, in the medias words "the day everything changed".

I'm not particularly anti-american, I just prefer to see thing for what they are. Just because the newspaper and the media are giving you information doesn't mean you need to accept it for the truth. Just because you were born in one country doesn't mean that your tribe are the best or are right all the time. I think the number of dead in Iraq should provoke a similar emotional response in people as 9/11, but is doesn't, because who cares about them right?

Think about 3,000 versus 10s of thousands and ask yourself if you still want to run in the street or stand up at a ball game and shout "USA USA"

Melusine
07-05-11, 16:47
BTW: OSB born March 10, 1957 (wikipedia and many other sources) OLD MAN at age 54 ??????????????????

Regarding numbers about Iraq killed since 2003 attributed to the USA (what about Nato and other European allies included here? none?)

Google: How many people has saddam Husein Killed? See what the ARAB FOUNDATION has to say:

Estimate since he took control of Iraq nearly ONE MILLION.

http://www.iraqfoundation.org/news/2003/aian/27_saddam.html

Oh on the above URL, Russian killed over ONE MILLION OF IT'S own people too.

NONE of the human's (not all were Americans) killed in the Twin Towers were buried, they were instantly killed and turned to ashes, ages 2 to 85 allmost all were cilvilians (this was not a military base, they were an everyday working office buildings, with children's nursery's, restaurants, and of course offices . And of course the airliner passingers used as "missiles" to do the murderous deeds.

Now some Pakistanie's are "riling" against the USA for OBL's death. How quickly they forget that since 9/11/10 the USA has sent Pakistan over 10 BILLION dollars to fight "El Qaida", (why the money, because Pakistan has nuclear weapons and IF a group like El Qaida, would ever take control of Pakistan, the world would be in much danger, but, especially INDIA.

Antigone
07-05-11, 17:18
Osama Bin Laden, born March 10, 1957. Old man, really at age 54??????????????.

All of Europe and Russia, are FREE today because of the USA's help in WW2. Study history, and perhaps you all won't bite the hand that "freed you". There is plenty of aniti-USA sentiment on this Europe Forum, because of historical "ignorance" and current "envy" of the USA. The UK were the only "other" countryl that put their "money and men where their mouths were during WW2.

At the risk of taking this thread off topic, er no. The UK was definitely not the only other country to put their money and men where their mouths were during WWII. Australia, Canada, New Zealand, India and South Africa (just to name a few) were already putting their money, men's lives and more where their mouths were and fighting the Axis powers way before the US bothered itself to get involved. You are also conveniently forgetting the assistance of the various resistance movements, without whose tireless and dangerous work behind enemy lines, much would not have been possible.

But Perhaps we should confine ourselves to debating the current topic instead of bringing that which is irrelevant to OBL's death into the debate?

LeBrok
07-05-11, 17:35
People, look at the big picture and don't drown yourself in details, or things we don't know, because it leads you nowhere.

USA said for years that they will kill OBL. It has happened now, just like this, and half of you are in disbelieve. But of course it can't be true, because it didn't happen the way you like it, right?
It can't be true, because you dislike USA they must be lying, right?
It can't be true, because they didn't share all the operational details with you, right?
He didn't die at said time, because they didn't have time to do DNA test. Hmmm, they couldn't possibly get his DNA few weeks before, because they didn't know where he lived, right?
What splendid reasons not to believe, and rush into conspiracies. Bravo.

Anton, Bear's den
07-05-11, 17:48
All of Europe and Russia, are FREE today because of the USA's help in WW2.
90% of nazi divisions were beaten by commies, not by captain america


There is plenty of aniti-USA sentiment on this Europe Forum, because of historical "ignorance" and current "envy" of the USA.
This forum is a badass, agree :good_job: but not only USA is a victim of this forum :laughing:


The UK were the only "other" countryl that put their "money and men where their mouths were during WW2.

4804

Reinaert
07-05-11, 19:49
Please don't start again about World War 2.

America and the UK played a minor role in Europe.

edao
07-05-11, 21:17
US release footage found in Pakistan compound.

watch Osama watching TV (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DB0ftf53JYs)


An old grey haired patheitc looking old man, sat in a hovel rocking back and forward watching news reports about hismelf. Is this really American's No1 enemy, the master mind behind a global terror network?

I doubt the video was taken last week, it's probably at least 2 years old. Its clear he was an old man in poor health. It's likely he died long before last weeks raid on his family home. The Americans attacked killed some of his family interrogated the suvivors to discover Osama was long dead and decided to use this information as propaganda to boost the Obama presidency and give Americans the symbolic victory they had been longing ten years for. Osama dies of kidney failure would have been a huge victory for Al-qaeda.

Now I have no idea what happened but again the video is another bit of information that doesn't really fit the story.

Reinaert
07-05-11, 22:00
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist. "

President Dwight D. Eisenhower, January 17, 1961 Farewell Speech

And Eisenhower really knew what he was talking about!

Of course, in the USA of today,
what he said will be interpreted as if Eisenhower would have been a communist.
What else!

Melusine
08-05-11, 01:57
Reinaert and others like minded as you.

Some World War II MILITARY casualties (per Wikipedia)

BELGUIUM: 12,100

poland: 240,000

Switzerland next to 000000000000

Denmark 2,100

UK, 385,800

Canada 45,400 and the

USA 416.800

(the USA had no "personal/property stake (nor did we get any) in Europe. Yet our people died for your grandparents, parents, and you INGRATES on this forum who like to "belittle" the USA TODAY)


http://wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

MELUSINE

Antigone
08-05-11, 07:00
Er no again, on many counts.

1. Off topic
2. You are quoting figures from the entire war, you'll need to find the figures for Europe alone and not use the Pacific casualties to boost numbers.
3. Switzerland as a neutral country is irrelevant to your argument.
4. You keep stating that Europe wouldn't be free today if not for the US, then castigate all for using that very freedom to express an opinion.

I don't agree with everything that has been expressed here either, I doubt if there is anyone who does agree with all, but no-one has resorted to bullying tactics and name calling simply because someone expressed an opinion they didn't agree with, except the US contributors to this thread. Why is that? I'd genuinely like to know.

If you don't like what you read then refute the arguments with facts, rather than resort to off topic irrelevancies and abuse.

Antigone
08-05-11, 07:20
US release footage found in Pakistan compound..

I don't understand the reason for releasing this footage or what it is meant to prove. So OBL was keeping track of what was being reported about himself and AQ, wouldn't anyone in his position do the same?

Elias2
08-05-11, 09:10
I take your point, it would be unfair to say all those deaths were directly caused by the American military. Would they have died if there had been no invasion, this was a war started by the Americans?

Thousands of kurds were dying under samdams regime, so yes.


In 9/11 no one really cares about steel and concrete, it wasn't the buildings being destroyed but the loss of human lives that appalled people. American joy and celebration of Osama's death is because of a loss of life they attribute to him. So really this is all about innocents being murdered?


If that was the case you'd share my point of view, but the fact is there is something else at play here, racism, tribalism, whatever you want to call it. You are happy to see Arabs murdered in their 10s of thousands either directly by the American government or indirectly by the fallout of the war they started. 3,000 odd Americans die and it's an event to be marked in human history forever, in the medias words "the day everything changed".

Watching sunni and shias kill each other because of a medival rivalry makes me think lower about the region in general. If you're asking me whether it would be better to keep sadam in power, my answer would be no. Then again, I think most of the countries in the middle east are backwards with the exception lebanon.


I'm not particularly anti-american, I just prefer to see thing for what they are. Just because the newspaper and the media are giving you information doesn't mean you need to accept it for the truth. Just because you were born in one country doesn't mean that your tribe are the best or are right all the time. I think the number of dead in Iraq should provoke a similar emotional response in people as 9/11, but is doesn't, because who cares about them right?

What kind of emotional responce do you mean? 9/11 was a message by islamo-nutbags to america. The dead in iraq was of a similar sort of sectarian inter-islamic violence. I care about people who care about freedoms and liberties. When I see, for example, crowds in pakistan cheering because a politician was killed for suggesting the blamsphemy laws be removed, or the violence against coptic christians in egypt, or the palestinian boy who went to jail for blogging about the lack of freedoms in islam, or events in turkey, it makes me wonder why people take the opinions of middle eastern leaders seriously.


Think about 3,000 versus 10s of thousands and ask yourself if you still want to run in the street or stand up at a ball game and shout "USA USA"

USA get alot of slack because it's the world superpower, and people always like to pick on the biggest guy, but ask yourself this, would you rather china be the world superpower? What would sadams responce be if he was around now and the arabs in his country were revolting? My guess would be like Syria but worse.

Reinaert
08-05-11, 10:25
USA get alot of slack because it's the world superpower, and people always like to pick on the biggest guy, but ask yourself this, would you rather china be the world superpower?

I think any superpower is always the problem. Power corrupts, always.
Any superpower or power is to be distrusted, always.

I don't believe in USA, UK, Russia, China, or India.
Empires rise on the blood of people, and in the end they die with the blood of people.

Anton, Bear's den
08-05-11, 11:06
USA get alot of slack because it's the world superpower, and people always like to pick on the biggest guy, but ask yourself this, would you rather china be the world superpower? What would sadams responce be if he was around now and the arabs in his country were revolting? My guess would be like Syria but worse.

China as total world superpower probably will force everyone to buy their goods to ensure employment of its own population and probably will demand lower prices for resources.
About "like Syria but worse" not sure because Russia for example never had wars with China, in China 5000 years history only Mao Zedong looks agressive.

But I don't think that China will ever get such status because 5 reasons:
1) America losing its power slowly, USA still will be very powerful nearest 20 years despite of the danger to their dollar printing in perspective, debts, mortgage crisis, useless wars etc...
2) Other countries of BRICS (Brasil, Russia, India & South Africa) not destroyed by wars as Europe after WWII. Each of them has an influence.
3) Monstrous amount of population in China lead to social tensions within China. Communistic 1 party system with lack of criticism is not conducive to solving such problems.
4) China have a lot of other problems: separatism in Tibet, the undetermined status of Taiwan, separatism in north-west muslim regions.
5) China is aging rapidly, 30 years and they will meet with the shortage of workforce.

Anton, Bear's den
08-05-11, 11:14
USA 416.800

Only in one Stalingrad battle USSR lost in 2 times more people

Anton, Bear's den
08-05-11, 11:17
I think any superpower is always the problem. Power corrupts, always.
Any superpower or power is to be distrusted, always.

I don't believe in USA, UK, Russia, China, or India.
Empires rise on the blood of people, and in the end they die with the blood of people.

Agree :grin:

Elias2
08-05-11, 19:42
I think any superpower is always the problem. Power corrupts, always.
Any superpower or power is to be distrusted, always.

I don't believe in USA, UK, Russia, China, or India.
Empires rise on the blood of people, and in the end they die with the blood of people.

While this may be true about superpowers, it is also true there at any given point in time there was a government or civilization that was "bigger" than the rest. Having one like america isn't all that bad when compaired to the rest of the options. Wishing away the idea of superpowers is more the stuff of dreams than reality. Now I don't agree with everything america does in the world nor do not have criticism of it, but when it comes to the issue of Iraq and the middle east, I generally support what its doing. Now if the EU can get its act together it could possibly be a world player again.

edao
08-05-11, 20:11
Now if the EU can get its act together it could possibly be a world player again.

I totally agree, in Europe foreign policy across member states is all over the place. The French and British were so keen to stick their noses into Lybia, only to have tens of thousands of refuees came pouring into Italy. The Italians quite rightly asked for EU assistance only to be told it was thier problem deal with it.

In Europe I think we need to understand that there isn't really such a thing as an independant nation any more. We can't retreat into our borders and stick to our own affairs.

Last week in Scotland we had the Scottish Parliament Elections, the Scottish Nationalist made huge gains. There is now a almost definite guarantee on a referendum on independance. All the Scottish people would be doing is swaping one dominant force eg Westminster for Brussels. The idea that in a heavily globalised world that tiny Scotland is going to be fine breaking out on its own is ridiculous. RBS and HBOS were two scottish based banks which had to be bailed out; if Scotland had been independant it would be in the same position as Ireland going cap in hand to the EU and IMF.

Reinaert
08-05-11, 21:04
Haha...
Sitting at the dock of the bay...
Watching the trawlers go by...

Your dream of Empires is over!
Learn to live with it!

Every country in Europe, including Scotland and Ireland should have their own benefit from the common market, without the negative results of an Anglo-American capitalist idiotic speculative kind of gambling market system.

Speculation with money is forbidden for Christians.
As Jesus slammed the money traders out of the Temple...

Hey? Americans.. Ever read the Bible properly?

Anton, Bear's den
08-05-11, 22:28
Now I don't agree with everything america does in the world nor do not have criticism of it, but when it comes to the issue of Iraq and the middle east, I generally support what its doing. Now if the EU can get its act together it could possibly be a world player again.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/secret-memos-expose-link-between-oil-firms-and-invasion-of-iraq-2269610.html

That article says that oil companies of the "winners" over Saddam Hussein got almost the whole Iraqi oil.
Ohh I forgot they are there because of Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction! :laughing:

edao
09-05-11, 00:07
"Oil reserves in Libya are the largest in Africa and the ninth largest in the world"
source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oil_reserves_in_Libya)

It's no coincidence that with all the unrest (regimes killing their own people) Libya with the largest oil reserve is the only one to have had military attacks.

Not that I'm saying it's a bad thing at the end fo the day one of the reason people are saying the UK has seen 0% growth in 6 months is due to high cost of oil. Securing such an important resource for the econmic prosperity of the west is probably not a bad idea.

Anton, Bear's den
09-05-11, 01:02
Not that I'm saying it's a bad thing at the end fo the day one of the reason people are saying the UK has seen 0% growth in 6 months is due to high cost of oil. Securing such an important resource for the econmic prosperity of the west is probably not a bad idea.
from link:
Oil reserves in Libya are the largest in Africa and the ninth largest in the world with 41.5 billion barrels (6.60×10^9 m3) as of 2007


Now I understand why "world light of democracy" has a such burning desire to invade Lybia and in the same time very silent about non-oil deserts like Syria, Bahrain, Yemen :laughing:

Melusine
09-05-11, 19:09
I stand corrected on the amount of USA military soldiers who died in Europe WWII (revised to ONLY about 183,000)

However, why not take time to add the 116,708 American soldiers that died in EUROPE during WWI?? Perhaps a grand total of 300,000 of our grandfathers dying for Europe is not enough for some of you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

Aconform
09-05-11, 19:49
I stand corrected on the amount of USA military soldiers who died in Europe WWII (revised to ONLY about 183,000)

However, why not take time to add the 116,708 American soldiers that died in EUROPE during WWI?? Perhaps a grand total of 300,000 of our grandfathers dying for Europe is not enough for some of you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

Well… Americans did not want to join the WWII in Europe… only after a sinking of an American ship by the Germans did the people get motivated.

And it’s somewhat an over statement to say they died for Europe; they died for their own countries interests.

The Americans joining in on the fight in Europe did help allot. But don’t forget that America had a lot of personal interests in the war. It was also a huge boost to American economy. It’s not as simple as America is the great martyr and that we should fall to our knees in gratitude.

Maciamo
09-05-11, 19:50
I stand corrected on the amount of USA military soldiers who died in Europe WWII (revised to ONLY about 183,000)

However, why not take time to add the 116,708 American soldiers that died in EUROPE during WWI?? Perhaps a grand total of 300,000 of our grandfathers dying for Europe is not enough for some of you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

Dying for Europe ? The USA joined both world wars late when it became inevitable for them because they were attacked by the Germans (in WWI) or the Japanese (in WWII). Both wars were relatively "good investments" for the USA, since they became the world's dominant military power, occupied Germany and Japan after WWII, got enormous war compensations (including a lot of unofficial Nazi and Japanese gold plundered around Europe and Asia), and impose American systems and values in Western Europe, Japan, South Korea, Taiwan and parts of South-East Asia. If the USA had not participated in both world wars, American political influence and economic interests around the world would be much smaller. Had the USA continued their isolationist policy, they would resemble Japan today; a strong economy with proportionally very little political influence outside its own boundaries. With the hindsights, if it had to be done all over again, the USA would have tremendous interest in fighting in both world wars, especially the second.

All this to say that Americans didn't die for Europeans, but for their own interests. The US government knew very well from the start that they had more to win than to lose. They also knew very well that joining the war as late as possible was the best way to limit casualties by letting the others fight each others first and come when both parties were worn out for a relatively quick and easy victory. Fine strategists. Fighting Japan was much harder because the Japanese didn't face substantial resistance from their enemies within Asia. Germany being stronger and more technologically advanced than Japan, it is doubtful that the US could have defeated the Germans if Hitler had left the USSR alone.

Reinaert
09-05-11, 19:59
Well… Americans did not want to join the WWII in Europe… only after a sinking of an American ship by the Germans did the people get motivated.

And it’s somewhat an over statement to say they died for Europe; they died for their own countries interests.

The Americans joining in on the fight in Europe did help allot. But don’t forget that America had a lot of personal interests in the war. It was also a huge boost to American economy. It’s not as simple as America is the great martyr and that we should fall to our knees in gratitude.


Correction:


Well… Americans did not want to join the WWI in Europe… only after a sinking of an American ship by the Germans did the people get motivated.

The sinking of the Lusitania wasn't the reason!

The Americans were tricked into WWI by the British.

The Brits produced some telegram that the Germans would help Mexico if they invaded the USA!
Go figure that!!! :snicker::76:

Arriba Andele Andele... Get Los Angeles and San Francisco back from those Gringo's!!!!

Wooooooohaaaaaaaa!!!!!


And it's a simple fact that the invasion in French Normandy was only done in June 1944, because the Russians were advancing into the direction of Berlin.
It was the policy of the USA to let the Germans and Russians fight each other to death.

Truman said so already in the New York Post in 1930!

"If the Russians are winning, we support the Germans, if the Germans win, we support the Russians!"

A real Freemacon mentality!

Read this..

"In Gold we trust!"

Mzungu mchagga
09-05-11, 21:22
Leaving US interests aside, I think you shouldn't harmless Nazi actions during the Third Reich! Even if your accusations to the US are true, keep ground and beware of who the real aggressors of WWII were. If the Nazis had won the war and Himmler would have had the ability to continue his eugenic programme in Europe for the favour of a strong, healthy and nordic population, many people I know today, including myself, wouldn't have been born, or killed as babies.

Mzungu mchagga
09-05-11, 21:55
Go figure that!!! :snicker::76:

Arriba Andele Andele... Get Los Angeles and San Francisco back from those Gringo's!!!!

Wooooooohaaaaaaaa!!!!!


:confused2: :useless: :startled:

Anton, Bear's den
10-05-11, 01:06
I stand corrected on the amount of USA military soldiers who died in Europe WWII (revised to ONLY about 183,000)

However, why not take time to add the 116,708 American soldiers that died in EUROPE during WWI?? Perhaps a grand total of 300,000 of our grandfathers dying for Europe is not enough for some of you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

That link says that total number of American casualties in WWI is 2% from Entente while Romania - 6%, Serbia - 8%, Italy - 12%, Britain - 16%, France - 25% and Russia 30%. Really and what the hell would we do without America in WWI??? :petrified:

I myself appreciate America & Canada for material & moral supporting in WWII, that really was very timely especially considering that the Nazis planned to get rid of 90% of the population of my country just because of the race. But real military American contribution in fight with nazism was about 5%, no more. I don't say that waiting attitude was cowardly or something, it was smart. Your leaders saved a lot of own people by it.
Just look on D-day
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normandy_Landings
and after watch it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Stalingrad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Kursk#cite_note-Kvivosheevtech-23
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Bagration
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Berlin
Even 70 years after Russia have 10 million deficiency of the male population over female, without world wars modern Russia's population could be 170, 180, 190 millions, not 140 like now. These wars are total craziness.

Antigone
10-05-11, 07:06
Excellent point Anton. For a true idea of the effects on populations as a result of WWI and II it is best to look at the percentages, merely quoting numbers of deaths is inadequate as each population size varies.

So looking at the link, the US in WWI lost a mere 0.13% of it's population as opposed to countries like Serbia who lost a whopping 16.11%. WWII percentages are here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WWII_Casualties. The USSR is at 14.21% whilst the US is at only 0.32%, even Australia and New Zealand have higher casualties than the US at 0.57% and 0.73%. Keeping in mind that the figures do include the Pacific so the the US, Australian & NZ percentages for Europe would be lower.

Although, imo, this is all quite a useless exercise. The US didn't expend lives and resources out of the goodness of their hearts, as they would have us believe. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't the US the only country to make a profit out of WWII?

barbarian
10-05-11, 08:42
China as total world superpower probably will force everyone to buy their goods to ensure employment of its own population and probably will demand lower prices for resources.
About "like Syria but worse" not sure because Russia for example never had wars with China, in China 5000 years history only Mao Zedong looks agressive.

But I don't think that China will ever get such status because 5 reasons:
1) America losing its power slowly, USA still will be very powerful nearest 20 years despite of the danger to their dollar printing in perspective, debts, mortgage crisis, useless wars etc...
2) Other countries of BRICS (Brasil, Russia, India & South Africa) not destroyed by wars as Europe after WWII. Each of them has an influence.
3) Monstrous amount of population in China lead to social tensions within China. Communistic 1 party system with lack of criticism is not conducive to solving such problems.
4) China have a lot of other problems: separatism in Tibet, the undetermined status of Taiwan, separatism in north-west muslim regions.
5) China is aging rapidly, 30 years and they will meet with the shortage of workforce.

in addition to these items. and i believe the most important one: china is not growing with its own sources. there is huge amount of global investment, which will cause loosing the political control over their own country.

iapetoc
10-05-11, 14:43
Are you nuts?

if Europe fall to Nazi, today no USA will exist,
Nazi had plans ti Invade Savannah USA

Remember that the Atom Bomb was made By German scientists, and not by USA,
Rockets to the moon were developed by Germans and not by USA,
if Europe fall to Nazism today USA probably spoke German,

the Anti-American Feeling in Europe, is because Europe pays what America Build,
Remember the USA help to Adolf, How many motors ?????
All Meschershit (what ever) Airplanes had American engines, made in Detroit and seattle, (R Royce)
Remember that Trotsky left Chicago with Gold to help Lennin in Russia, to revolt.
so Ignorance is not in Europe,
Europe instead is more open minded to see the other view, that CIA doesn't permit in USA media,
Europe is not Anti USA,
and since you now History,
Adolf lost the war due to lack of oil,
only in Serbia how many NAzi were stoped, and how many in Greece,
Remember that the most victims in % of population has Greece and Russia,
350 000 / 7 000 000 thats 1/20 if in USA in the next 2 yeras die 20 000 000 USAers then surely they sign surrender,

so stop offending Europe, cause they know that Osama's case in 10 years will be another scandal,

Europe only salute the death of Osama, no chears no Fan, no Fiesta,
Many here say the case stings, why you are offended?
because of our Freedom to make speach and argue?
simply look at your History, EVEN IN WW2 THE pRESIDENT DIDN'T NOT ANNOUNCE THE DEATH OF AN ENEMY, why today? simply, a media trick, Find out why.

Besides Before WW2 the stronger country was British empire, after ww2, left 1 and 1/2 Usa and Ussr,
they both helped and create China, the rest is far talking.

Gavroche
10-05-11, 15:27
if Europe fall to Nazism today USA probably spoke German
Or Russian, no?



7 000 000
For me, more than 9 000 000 russians died during the WW2...

sparkey
10-05-11, 17:24
Most posters here will be unsurprised to learn (or probably already know) that Melusine's point of view is very pervasive throughout the US. The idea is often that America has been an exceptionally virtuous nation throughout history and that other countries either owe something to us or at least should not stop us from doing what we think is right or disparaging what we do. (Apologies to Melusine if what I described isn't strictly your point of view... although I feel that you reflect this type of viewpoint.)

Personally, I disagree with that sentiment, and I don't find European distaste for American celebration offensive. In fact, the more we learn about the Osama killing, the more it seems like a flat assassination order, which should make anybody uncomfortable (although not surprised... the US even has a kill order on an American citizen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_al-Awlaki), after all). I wish we were as virtuous a nation as we present ourselves as being.

To be clear, I'm happy that we combat al-Qaeda to some degree, and I'm not detached from the effects of al-Qaeda's terrorism. But death isn't something that makes me happy, regardless.

Reinaert
10-05-11, 17:38
Or Russian, no?

For me, more than 9 000 000 russians died during the WW2...

About 9 mil Russian military deaths.
Civilian deaths included in total about 20 mil.
Probably more!


20.000.000 people killed, by military actions, bombings, murdered, hanged, shot, died of starvation in camps.
Do you know how many 20 million people is?

Australia nowadays has a population of about 22 million!
Imagine the entire population of Australia would have been killed.
That gives you an idea.

And to put it like it is... Europeans don't have any problems with normal American citizens, we usually do have problems with the American system, politics, companies.
If referred to "The Americans" we mean the American capitalist establishment, the CIA and so on.
Gung ho generals who are trigger happy to even use nuclear weapons.

Another point is, the USA fails to produce the evidence for the wars they started.
Over and over again.
Now again, there is no evidence about OBL's death whatsoever.

Dagne
10-05-11, 17:40
Very well said sparkey, Bravo :good_job:

iapetoc
15-07-11, 15:11
http://tvxs.gr/news/%CF%85%CE%B3%CE%B5%CE%AF%CE%B1/%CE%B7-cia-%CE%B5%CE%BC%CE%B2%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%AF%CE%B1%CE%B6%C E%B5-%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%B9%CE%B4%CE%B9%CE%AC-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%BF-%CF%80%CE%B1%CE%BA%CE%B9%CF%83%CF%84%CE%AC%CE%BD-%CE%BC%CE%B5-%CF%83%CE%BA%CE%BF%CF%80%CF%8C-%CE%BD%CE%B1-%CE%B2%CF%81%CE%B5%CE%B9-%CF%84%CE%BF%CE%BD-%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%B9%CE%BD-%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%BD%CF%84%CE%B5%CE%BD


According the above Link CIA knew about Osama at least 6-8 months earlier,
They found him by Unicef and Global Helath organizations,
especially by against Polyomyelitis campaign in area of 'Ambotampant' (how ever is writtten.

they found him compare his sister blood with the blood of the Vaccine!!!!!!!!!

Sometimes I wonder about Human society and Organizations who they are serving

Source Blog Science by tomas Cherian (however is written)
simply not outrageous but inhuman.

LeBrok
15-07-11, 17:03
Does this mean that you were wrong not to believe in his death?

Reinaert
15-07-11, 17:41
Osama.. The biggest joke in history... EVER!

iapetoc
15-07-11, 17:49
[QUOTE=LeBrok;375749]Does this mean that you were wrong not to believe in his death?[/QUOTE

Nope, a judge say no corpse no crime.

simply read carefully, Unicef and CIA ???

LeBrok
16-07-11, 02:21
Let's have it on record. You think he is still alive, right?

iapetoc
16-07-11, 04:14
correct I think he lives somewhere hidden and protected by CIA

to use him again when they want.


on the other hand, for the record, do you agree with Methods of CIA using Unicef?

LeBrok
16-07-11, 05:19
As long as they keep my world and my way of life safe, they can even use my home. :)
I can't comment on the article because I can't read greek.

To hold Osam hidden doesn't make sense. Why would you spend millions of dollars for his protection, and it might leak out to the public and president of USA or CIA can topple down. Why would you spend money and risk your carrier!!!???
Especially if you know that CIA is very crafty and can invent a new villain if they need one, lol. Cheaper and no risk. Think...
Besides, why CIA would spend extra money even to invent a villain, if there are so many around: Gaddafi, Chavez, Castro, Bashar, Kim Jong Il, just pick one...lol.

sparkey
16-07-11, 08:40
:laughing: @ iapetoc thinking that the CIA and US government are competent enough to pull a stunt like that. I think that the WikiLeaks cables have proven that at least the state department doesn't have much clue what it's doing when it comes to protecting information.

iapetoc
16-07-11, 11:09
As long as they keep my world and my way of life safe, they can even use my home. :)
I can't comment on the article because I can't read greek.

To hold Osam hidden doesn't make sense. Why would you spend millions of dollars for his protection, and it might leak out to the public and president of USA or CIA can topple down. Why would you spend money and risk your carrier!!!???
Especially if you know that CIA is very crafty and can invent a new villain if they need one, lol. Cheaper and no risk. Think...
Besides, why CIA would spend extra money even to invent a villain, if there are so many around: Gaddafi, Chavez, Castro, Bashar, Kim Jong Il, just pick one...lol.


That is what I am talking about, you are not safe.

the extra I can give is the 2 author.

http://www.who.int/immunization/aboutus/bio_cherian/en/index.html

http://www.paul-offit.com/

sory it is difficult to find more.


Just think, before you were safe not safe from but safe from CIA,
today you are safe from Osama, are you safe from CIA,

besides all the stories of Kastro Chavez are a myth so to create enemies in USA, just to lead people in a purpose,
when something is done Wrong in Greece or Turkey,
the Next Day we have Air combat activity or Naval,
Inner consumption,
There is no better way to create an enemy

N korea afraid of people not to run-escape to south Korea, and you believe they are a danger for USA? :useless: :useless:

LeBrok
16-07-11, 17:13
Why are you afraid of CIA? Are they coming to kill iapetoc?
I like CIA, they are my friends.

N Korea has big army, atom bomb, and genocidal leaders. I think we should help our friends in the region, like S. Korea. I don't see a Greek army and money rushing with help. All I hear is an egoistic approach to the world, yours and the whole Greece.

LeBrok
16-07-11, 17:22
:laughing: @ iapetoc thinking that the CIA and US government are competent enough to pull a stunt like that. I think that the WikiLeaks cables have proven that at least the state department doesn't have much clue what it's doing when it comes to protecting information.

Exactly sparkey, this is the weakest point of conspiracy theorists. In spite of thousands examples of how easily stories leak to the media and the public, they still believe that government can keep a big secret.
The only secrets that don't leak out are the least important, the ones that nobody really cares about and make money on, lol.

iapetoc, do you believe that CIA still keeps the secret of extra-terrestrial space ship in area 51?

Antigone
16-07-11, 18:54
Thats a bit rough Lebrok, I don't agree with iapetoc's theory either (it is a bit too out there for me) but he is, like everyone else, entitled to his opinion.

Besides Greeks have a (not without reason) mistrust of the US government and the CIA in particular. It goes back to the aftermath of WWII, the following civil war and later, a brutal military dictatorship that was backed by the supposed bastion of democracy and freedom, the US. You may like to believe that the CIA is watching out for you but not everyone has been made "safe" by an organisation that is about protecting the political and financial interests of the US, nothing more and nothing less.

iapetoc
16-07-11, 19:37
Why are you afraid of CIA? Are they coming to kill iapetoc?
I like CIA, they are my friends.

N Korea has big army, atom bomb, and genocidal leaders. I think we should help our friends in the region, like S. Korea. I don't see a Greek army and money rushing with help. All I hear is an egoistic approach to the world, yours and the whole Greece.

All I see is 'save my ass CIA, and .... my wife'

was 1967 Greece a Big Army? and they push dictators? was The cyprus case pushed By CIA agents in Greece?
DID CIA knew about twin towers? IF KNEW WHAT DID TO AVOID?

the same bullshit that they told all the world,
The whole world is in danger by N KOREA!!!!
yet in S africa mundial they were afraid not their people run free and ask Asyllum.
are we nuts? you believe All the stories?
Prime ministers in small countries are CIA puppets and you tell me why I am afraid?
using UNICEF and WHO Help to find DNA?
who knows maybe with Vaccine they put me a nano-bot
are you serius?
we lived CIA by first hand,
the ex minister of clinton or Bush name Rubbin was here at 1973, and we know what he did,

But I like if CIA make something like that in USA,

I think did something before. water gate if I remember?

since you like CIA and you are not afraid of them, ok?
But I don't cause they f.. up my country my world my future, my kids future etc,

besides WE CHOOSE OUR FRIENDS.
IF YOU LIKE FRIENDS, AGENTS WHO USE MEDICAL AID TO SCORE A GOAL GO AHEAD.

24 000 KIDS STOP polyomelitis VAccine after that,
DO YOU KNOW HOW MANY KIDS WILL DIE?
do you know if Islamic world act as vietnam, and cut hands of kids, if this is true?
do you know that movement has started in Pakistan stop all Vaccines? cause of the Bullshit of CIA to be safe?
Maybe your kid 1 day gets a rare disease by another kid in school who deny all Vaccines cause CIA use them.
I would like you speaking of friends that day,

IT IS INHUMAN TO USE MEDICAL AID TO GET INFORMATION,

How will I trust a WHO vaccine or a USA doctor if I an suspicious that he is CIA agent?

are we nuts?

simply you choose your friends,

Seems like you have not even read who Offit is

Deadly Choices: How the Anti-Vaccine Movement Threatens Us All (Basic Books, 2011).

he speaks about a wide anti-vaccine movement,
and you belive after that that the other reveal, people trust Vaccines?
just CIA f.. up a world good medical movement,

I feel betrayed, sometimes with my kids I bought some things,
Now I am afraid that my money went to CIA

Next time I see in TV help Unicef, HOW WILL I REACT?
WHEN I KNOW THAT Le BROK's safety is behind?
and not Help the Kids of poor countries?

this is not terror, this is Horror as Marlon Brando said in Apocalypse Now.
Not the ride of Valkyries, but reborn of Macciaveli


time 2:30 and after.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHrcD87aOCw&feature=related

Next era for Human kind? what? no global health organization, no Trust.

your 'Friends' have brought safety not with the FLY of VALKYRIES, BUT WITH HORROR,
HORROR we shall gather if people lose trust in global medicine association.

Phrike φρικη




Ὄμνυμι Ἀπόλλωνα ἰητρὸν, καὶ Ἀσκληπιὸν, καὶ Ὑγείαν, καὶ Πανάκειαν, καὶ θεοὺς πάντας τε καὶ πάσας, ἵστορας ποιεύμενος, ἐπιτελέα ποιήσειν κατὰ δύναμιν καὶ κρίσιν ἐμὴν ὅρκον τόνδε καὶ ξυγγραφὴν τήνδε. Ἡγήσασθαι μὲν τὸν διδάξαντά με τὴν τέχνην ταύτην ἴσα γενέτῃσιν ἐμοῖσι, καὶ βίου κοινώσασθαι, καὶ χρεῶν χρηίζοντι μετάδοσιν ποιήσασθαι, καὶ γένος τὸ ἐξ ωὐτέου ἀδελφοῖς ἴσον ἐπικρινέειν ἄῤῥεσι, καὶ διδάξειν τὴν τέχνην ταύτην, ἢν χρηίζωσι μανθάνειν, ἄνευ μισθοῦ καὶ ξυγγραφῆς, παραγγελίης τε καὶ ἀκροήσιος καὶ τῆς λοιπῆς ἁπάσης μαθήσιος μετάδοσιν ποιήσασθαι υἱοῖσί τε ἐμοῖσι, καὶ τοῖσι τοῦ ἐμὲ διδάξαντος, καὶ μαθηταῖσι συγγεγραμμένοισί τε καὶ ὡρκισμένοις νόμῳ ἰητρικῷ, ἄλλῳ δὲ οὐδενί. Διαιτήμασί τε χρήσομαι ἐπ' ὠφελείῃ καμνόντων κατὰ δύναμιν καὶ κρίσιν ἐμὴν, ἐπὶ δηλήσει δὲ καὶ ἀδικίῃ εἴρξειν. Οὐ δώσω δὲ οὐδὲ φάρμακον οὐδενὶ αἰτηθεὶς θανάσιμον, οὐδὲ ὑφηγήσομαι ξυμβουλίην τοιήνδε. Ὁμοίως δὲ οὐδὲ γυναικὶ πεσσὸν φθόριον δώσω. Ἁγνῶς δὲ καὶ ὁσίως διατηρήσω βίον τὸν ἐμὸν καὶ τέχνην τὴν ἐμήν. Οὐ τεμέω δὲ οὐδὲ μὴν λιθιῶντας, ἐκχωρήσω δὲ ἐργάτῃσιν ἀνδράσι πρήξιος τῆσδε. Ἐς οἰκίας δὲ ὁκόσας ἂν ἐσίω, ἐσελεύσομαι ἐπ' ὠφελείῃ καμνόντων, ἐκτὸς ἐὼν πάσης ἀδικίης ἑκουσίης καὶ φθορίης, τῆς τε ἄλλης καὶ ἀφροδισίων ἔργων ἐπί τε γυναικείων σωμάτων καὶ ἀνδρῴων, ἐλευθέρων τε καὶ δούλων. Ἃ δ' ἂν ἐν θεραπείῃ ἢ ἴδω, ἢ ἀκούσω, ἢ καὶ ἄνευ θεραπηίης κατὰ βίον ἀνθρώπων, ἃ μὴ χρή ποτε ἐκλαλέεσθαι ἔξω, σιγήσομαι, ἄῤῥητα ἡγεύμενος εἶναι τὰ τοιαῦτα. Ὅρκον μὲν οὖν μοι τόνδε ἐπιτελέα ποιέοντι, καὶ μὴ ξυγχέοντι, εἴη ἐπαύρασθαι καὶ βίου καὶ τέχνης δοξαζομένῳ παρὰ πᾶσιν ἀνθρώποις ἐς τὸν αἰεὶ χρόνον. παραβαίνοντι δὲ καὶ ἐπιορκοῦντι, τἀναντία τουτέων.





I swear by Apollo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo), the healer, Asclepius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asclepius), Hygieia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hygieia), and Panacea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panacea), and I take to witness all the gods, all the goddesses, to keep according to my ability and my judgment, the following Oath and agreement:
To consider dear to me, as my parents, him who taught me this art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medicine); to live in common with him and, if necessary, to share my goods with him; To look upon his children as my own brothers, to teach them this art.
I will prescribe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_prescription#History) regimens for the good of my patients according to my ability and my judgment and never do harm (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primum_non_nocere) to anyone.
I will not give a lethal drug to anyone if I am asked (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euthanasia), nor will I advise such a plan; and similarly I will not give a woman a pessary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pessary) to cause an abortion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion).
But I will preserve the purity of my life and my arts.
I will not cut for stone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithotomy), even for patients in whom the disease is manifest; I will leave this operation to be performed by practitioners, specialists in this art (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surgery).
In every house where I come I will enter only for the good of my patients, keeping myself far from all intentional ill-doing and all seduction and especially from the pleasures of love with women or with men, be they free or slaves.
All that may come to my knowledge in the exercise of my profession or in daily commerce with men, which ought not to be spread abroad, I will keep secret (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confidentiality) and will never reveal.
If I keep this oath faithfully, may I enjoy my life and practice my art, respected by all men and in all times; but if I swerve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perjury) from it or violate it, may the reverse be my lot.
When the good for my patiens become search osama DNA?

When the Keep secret and will never reveal become except CIA?


PART 2

WOW the ex Taliban Enemies now friends with CIA

http://tvxs.gr/news/%CE%BA%CF%8C%CF%83%CE%BC%CE%BF%CF%82/%CE%B1%CF%86%CE%B1%CE%AF%CF%81%CE%B5%CF%83%CE%B5-%CE%BF-%CE%BF%CE%B7%CE%B5-%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8C-%CF%84%CE%B7-%C2%AB%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%8D%CF%81%CE%B7-%CE%BB%CE%AF%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B1%C2%BB-%CF%84%CE%BF%CF%85-%CF%80%CF%81%CF%8E%CE%B7%CE%BD-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%AD%CF%87%CE%B7-%CF%84%CE%B1%CE%BB%CE%B9%CE%BC%CF%80%CE%AC%CE%BD


14 BIG taliban are now erased from Dangerous Taliban list,
among them
Arsalan Rachmani Daulat (minister of Islamic education in Taliban!!!!
Schidur Rachman Chakani (minister of mineral and industry of Taliban!!!)
etc,

AND YOU WANT ME TO BELIEVE THAT OSAMA IS DEAD WHEN CIA GIVES FORGIVESS TO 14 BIG TALIBAN?

Gods !!!
1 by 1, all ex-taliban will return and be pioneers of Democracy in Afganistan, WOW
and you want me to believe that Osama is dead, the exact day and is shown in photo?
yes as Taliban were Democratic and Before, the CIA forgiveness

Soon as I said in previous post USA army will move away from Afgan,
but 'democratic' Taliban will stay back to protect Democracy from Taliban !!!!!!!!!!

Reinaert
16-07-11, 20:13
Haha.. Trough history the high and mighty always ruined the lives of the common people.
The Capitalists that left Europe for a new future in the USA, did nothing else than copying the behavior of the partly gone European Royalties. Wars between the Emperors, Kings and Queens have ruined Europe.
The USA fell in the same trap from WWII on.

How is that possible?

A faulty perception of history.
Where propaganda replaced the facts.

And I think OBL was dead already before he died according to the USA government! :annoyed:

LeBrok
17-07-11, 04:32
Thats a bit rough Lebrok, I don't agree with iapetoc's theory either (it is a bit too out there for me) but he is, like everyone else, entitled to his opinion..
It would be rough for you Antigone because you don't believe it. I honestly think iapetoc believes in area 51 story. I was just trying to figure out the limits of his conspiracies.



Besides Greeks have a (not without reason) mistrust of the US government and the CIA in particular. It goes back to the aftermath of WWII, the following civil war and later, a brutal military dictatorship that was backed by the supposed bastion of democracy and freedom, the US. You may like to believe that the CIA is watching out for you but not everyone has been made "safe" by an organisation that is about protecting the political and financial interests of the US, nothing more and nothing less.
Possibly you are right. Just keep in mind that CIA is a tool in hands of US government. Governments change, their polices change too, therefore CIA priorities change as well. What CIA was doing 20 years ago, might be discontinued and forgotten now. Also a mentality of new generation running CIA today is quite different than generation of 50s and 60s. Old guards are all gone and their world view.
We can't equate today's CIA with the one 50 years ago. Different people = different organization=different methods, just the name is the same. On top of it, as I said, it's just a tool in hands of US government.

iapetoc
17-07-11, 05:26
It would be rough for you Antigone because you don't believe it. I honestly think iapetoc believes in area 51 story. I was just trying to figure out the limits of his conspiracies.



Possibly you are right. Just keep in mind that CIA is a tool in hands of US government. Governments change, their polices change too, therefore CIA priorities change as well. What CIA was doing 20 years ago, might be discontinued and forgotten now. Also a mentality of new generation running CIA today is quite different than generation of 50s and 60s. Old guards are all gone and their world view.
We can't equate today's CIA with the one 50 years ago. Different people = different organization=different methods, just the name is the same. On top of it, as I said, it's just a tool in hands of US government.



:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

The Area 51 is created by some so to lose Horizon,
maybe to cover Manhattan Project? who knows,
the Extra terestrial forms of life is another story,

comparing the old CIA and the new CIA I see a diffrence,
the old time used Terror, military and police terror,
Today uses Horror,

tell me if those 2 Doctors are true, how will I trust Vaccines and UNicef in Future?

Antigone
17-07-11, 06:17
A tool yes and like the army, the CIA does the dirty work of it's government i.e protecting the government's interests and as such, are never to be trusted. In that nothing has changed, although exactly how much control the US government has over the CIA remains to be seen.

But you are Canadian, and you trust the covert organisation of a foreign government?

Sorry, I should have put in the quotes, this is in reply to Lebrok's message 105.

LeBrok
17-07-11, 07:40
Antigone, why are you so mistrustful? Most people are going about basic business, they want family, cars, homes, happy life. Same in government circles, they are same people as you and I. Maybe a bit more ambitious, and surely interested in politics and social settings. There is a reason that USA is the oldest recent democracy on this planet. If USA was corrupt, it means that most of citizens were corrupt and power hungry, you would see revolts, dictators, revolutions in USA all the time. The truth is the main citizen body in USA is honest, hard working and righteous, therefore they care (on average of course), share, build the common society. On top of it USA has pretty good and balanced political system, with checks and balances, and it worked pretty good for 200 years.
Why do we know it works? Well, they are the superpower and they build it themselves starting from small colonies of emigrants. They have high standard of living, and their citizens are very proud to be Americans. It really means a lot in the world. Half of the people on this plant (well, at lest couple of billions) would like to live there!
Summarizing:
1. 200 years of democracy, longest in recent history.
2. High standard of living. (I know that they messed up big time now with debt, but they are just people, right?)
3. The strongest military in the world
4. Superpower in many fields
5. Very proud citizens
6. Creative and inventive society, big in science, technology, and business.

Now if someone proves that this is the fruit of corrupt governments and corrupt society with secrets, conspiracies, etc, then I will become the biggest corrupter and corruptee in the world, lol. Because it gives a very good results for citizens!

If it comes to Canada, we are very alike. We are from the same emigrant stock, with same traditions and language. Canadians are looking for their own identity, and very often we mistrust Americans too. But this is the stigma of growing up with a bigger brother, that's all. We are more alike than half of Canadians want to acknowledge. It is true that many Canadians voice antiamericans point of view. It's funny considering the fact that for last 70 years Canada can exist as a free country thanks to USA. If not USA Canada would have been, 18 USSR republic, or part of Japanese empire, or maybe I would be speaking German by now. :)

LeBrok
17-07-11, 07:46
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

The Area 51 is created by some so to lose Horizon,
maybe to cover Manhattan Project? who knows,
the Extra terestrial forms of life is another story,

comparing the old CIA and the new CIA I see a diffrence,
the old time used Terror, military and police terror,
Today uses Horror,

tell me if those 2 Doctors are true, how will I trust Vaccines and UNicef in Future?


Avoid vaccines, they will give you down syndrome, CIA infected them.

What about extraterrestrials, did they visit us?

iapetoc
17-07-11, 09:20
Antigone, why are you so mistrustful? Most people are going about basic business, they want family, cars, homes, happy life. Same in government circles, they are same people as you and I. Maybe a bit more ambitious, and surely interested in politics and social settings. There is a reason that USA is the oldest recent democracy on this planet. If USA was corrupt, it means that most of citizens were corrupt and power hungry, you would see revolts, dictators, revolutions in USA all the time. The truth is the main citizen body in USA is honest, hard working and righteous, therefore they care (on average of course), share, build the common society. On top of it USA has pretty good and balanced political system, with checks and balances, and it worked pretty good for 200 years.
Why do we know it works? Well, they are the superpower and they build it themselves starting from small colonies of emigrants. They have high standard of living, and their citizens are very proud to be Americans. It really means a lot in the world. Half of the people on this plant (well, at lest couple of billions) would like to live there!
Summarizing:
1. 200 years of democracy, longest in recent history.
2. High standard of living. (I know that they messed up big time now with debt, but they are just people, right?)
3. The strongest military in the world
4. Superpower in many fields
5. Very proud citizens
6. Creative and inventive society, big in science, technology, and business.

Now if someone proves that this is the fruit of corrupt governments and corrupt society with secrets, conspiracies, etc, then I will become the biggest corrupter and corruptee in the world, lol. Because it gives a very good results for citizens!

If it comes to Canada, we are very alike. We are from the same emigrant stock, with same traditions and language. Canadians are looking for their own identity, and very often we mistrust Americans too. But this is the stigma of growing up with a bigger brother, that's all. We are more alike than half of Canadians want to acknowledge. It is true that many Canadians voice antiamericans point of view. It's funny considering the fact that for last 70 years Canada can exist as a free country thanks to USA. If not USA Canada would have been, 18 USSR republic, or part of Japanese empire, or maybe I would be speaking German by now. :)


well simply Bliach,
only the case that an average american spends 2,5 CO2 of west North European and have same lvl of living means that usa creates Global warming,
the propaganda for inner consumption elsewhere,

yes the myth of land of free home of brave, and you want me to believe you?

Besides you did not answer me, IS THE CONNECTION OF CIA WITH WHO AND UNICEF BLESSED BY YOU?
friend of Horror?

besides you forgot to tell us about the other 2 dogs of Mars
1 the terror that you send to Sioux
2 the deimos that ate colored until M luther king days

your paradise is a fake propaganda, like all the world.

sympathy for Devil Lebrok?

well I did not shot


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Je8MXiwmNIk



YOU HIDING BEHIND YOUR FINGER, OR YOU ACT LIKE ΑΝ OSTRICH,
YOU CLAIMING FAKE PARADISE AND LIVE FOR MOMENT, BUT IN FUTURE WHEN A KID WITH NO VACCINE MOVES NEXT TO YOU AND SPREAD NEW DISEASES YOU WILL COME TO MY WORDS

PHRIKE CREATES NEW PEOPLE THAT KILLED THE ONES NOT BORN BY HER,

the rest is like I don't care if others die today. since I am safe,
well your children might be not, cause your friend CIA betrayed the UNICEF.


the think that you don't understand is that american people and society is not CIA,
but CIA puts in danger your American way of life,

about Canada let me laugh,
you make him the USA puppy, its a pity,

you avoid again to say about the subject, you are defending a way of life, of another country, you make Canada the 55 state of USA, and not an old british and french colonies, you speak about extra terrestrial, but avoid to say that
USING UNICEF IT IS A MISTAKE. that CIA MADE A HORRIBLE ACT,

my grand kinds may have Down syndrome,
but I might send them in your favorite paradise to spread new mutated diseases

By what I understand is that CIA is is your friends cause they give you the ones you said,
so whatever CIA does is blessed,
well simply pathetic, and sick, and if you are a doctor more sick, almost emetic your point of view,
if money for you is above principals, then you deserve the world that CIA prepared for you,
bliach.

LeBrok
17-07-11, 10:17
lol, you should travel a bit. Come to Canada, it's nice here, homes, cars, work, lots of food, people are living great, air is clean, water tasty, government not corrupt, not too much debt, banks are healthy, no strikes or protests. CIA did a good job for us. lol
Why Greece can't do the same? Kiss the CIA arss and you will live in paradise too!

Still waiting for extraterrestrial answer. Are the green people working for CIA, or CIA working for green people?
You know they can use us all as slaves and steal our resources. We just don't know this!

iapetoc
17-07-11, 11:53
lol, you should travel a bit. Come to Canada, it's nice here, homes, cars, work, lots of food, people are living great, air is clean, water tasty, government not corrupt, not too much debt, banks are healthy, no strikes or protests. CIA did a good job for us. lol
Why Greece can't do the same? Kiss the CIA arss and you will live in paradise too!

Still waiting for extraterrestrial answer. Are the green people working for CIA, or CIA working for green people?
You know they can use us all as slaves and steal our resources. We just don't know this!

are you trying to buy my soul?
the same was told by your master to your master,
kneel me and all is yours, :rolleyes2:

medieval times
Inquisition


we want to convers the soul of the man, we want to purify him, so we send to the holy fire that purifies all, better to die by now, to live eternal.

colonisation times

Salem Mass witch trials,

Nineteen of the accused, fourteen women and five men, were hanged,
mass hysteria,
same with 9/11 mass Hysteria :grin:

so in order to purify the soul we send humans to fire,
in order to purify village we hang man,
in order to find Osama we use Unicef,

the old sickness,

the thing you don't understand is that the children of Phrike as Marlon say in clip,
the children of Phrike become stronger man,
you know what that means,

by making jokes of green human, will not save anyone of us, if the anti-vaccine movement grows,
you know the rest, and what that mean,

CIA manage at least to me to get a bad advertisement of all madical aid cause doctors failed their oath, and cooperate with CIA,

in future I might shoot a Unicef or a WHO doc with no problem, cause he might is a CIA agent,

:grin: :grin: :grin: no respect for some organisations means no respect to the organisations,

a mass Hysteria History


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLzo9pOXa-s


ENOUGH WITH YOUR RIGHTS
HOW ABOUT THE FUTURE KIDS RIGHTS TO VACCINE?
the αγος is bigggggg

Mzungu mchagga
17-07-11, 12:47
Iapetoc don't worry! If the US goes busted in less than two weeks, they will surely heavily cut their expenses on the CIA. This means that heaven, eternal paradise, Nirvana for all, is just around the corner!

Antigone
17-07-11, 18:17
Antigone, why are you so mistrustful? Most people are going about basic business, they want family, cars, homes, happy life. Same in government circles, they are same people as you and I. Maybe a bit more ambitious, and surely interested in politics and social settings. There is a reason that USA is the oldest recent democracy on this planet. If USA was corrupt, it means that most of citizens were corrupt and power hungry, you would see revolts, dictators, revolutions in USA all the time. The truth is the main citizen body in USA is honest, hard working and righteous, therefore they care (on average of course), share, build the common society. On top of it USA has pretty good and balanced political system, with checks and balances, and it worked pretty good for 200 years.
Why do we know it works? Well, they are the superpower and they build it themselves starting from small colonies of emigrants. They have high standard of living, and their citizens are very proud to be Americans. It really means a lot in the world. Half of the people on this plant (well, at lest couple of billions) would like to live there!
Summarizing:
1. 200 years of democracy, longest in recent history.
2. High standard of living. (I know that they messed up big time now with debt, but they are just people, right?)
3. The strongest military in the world
4. Superpower in many fields
5. Very proud citizens
6. Creative and inventive society, big in science, technology, and business.

Now if someone proves that this is the fruit of corrupt governments and corrupt society with secrets, conspiracies, etc, then I will become the biggest corrupter and corruptee in the world, lol. Because it gives a very good results for citizens!

If it comes to Canada, we are very alike. We are from the same emigrant stock, with same traditions and language. Canadians are looking for their own identity, and very often we mistrust Americans too. But this is the stigma of growing up with a bigger brother, that's all. We are more alike than half of Canadians want to acknowledge. It is true that many Canadians voice antiamericans point of view. It's funny considering the fact that for last 70 years Canada can exist as a free country thanks to USA. If not USA Canada would have been, 18 USSR republic, or part of Japanese empire, or maybe I would be speaking German by now. :)

I think you have been watching too many Hollywood movies Lebrok!

LeBrok
17-07-11, 19:07
Exactly to what points you are referring to? Any of the 6 from the list, or you had something else in mind?

iapetoc
17-07-11, 20:58
Exactly to what points you are referring to? Any of the 6 from the list, or you had something else in mind?


HAHAHAHAHA :laughing:

oh Lebrok oh Good morning
and in case I don't see you good afternoon, good evening ,and good night,
what a nice fellow Truman, hoe gentle, what a nice world,



min 1:20


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fHg_KWxLM6M&feature=related


ARE YOU SURE THAT THERE IS NO MORE TRUTH OUT THERE?

BUT IN 'CIA' WORLD THERE IS NOTHING TO FEAR

don't forget, buy the new intelligent knife,
it cuts iron, titanium, and also a tomato,
it can make coffee, and has a new screen above cutting edge where you can see your favorite tv show, made in USA by Chinese parts, with Japanese technology, under a Italian design, by a swedish architecture,
only 1.99$

some people opened the door,
some standing on the wall and wonder,
some are afraid to see the wall and out
some still never found the wall,

the tree of knowledge, of good and bad, is still out there
the choice of Hercules, αρετη 'η κακκια
virtue or crime.

in1490 there were monsters in the edge of the world, to fear people to travel and see new world,
for some people the monsters are just outside their world, you area your country,
But not next door to you, no, no way, your block is a block of saints, of inteligende people, well protected by the biggest army,
our world, a world of fear of what is outside,


WHO WILL PROTECT YOU FROM YOUR PROTECTORS?????

Using WHO and Unicef is a crime against Humanity,
and some CIA agents must go to Den Haag for crime against Humanity,


but for you no fear Lebrok they your friends, they watch you 24 a day, they have cameras in your closet in your bed, in your car, where ever you can not imagine, :laughing:

don't say something bad about them, they hear you,
the have microphone in your tooth, your dentinst put it there,
they hear you from your mobile,
they know all about you, How nice, they find you a good girl, to make family, a job, so not to think,
but they will let you have a good France campagne, a German car, and you are a good boy, they might give you Russian caviar to eat,



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U9vJXI3R5aU&feature=related

LeBrok
18-07-11, 04:37
Dude, what did you smoke this morning? :)











Have you been outside taking part in protests?

iapetoc
18-07-11, 08:06
Dude, what did you smoke this morning? :)











Have you been outside taking part in protests?



:laughing:

ask your friends, they know, they sell 'tobacco' :grin:

Louis
19-07-11, 01:07
How are they going to prove his death. Surely the world is not so nieve to believe anything the american government tell them, where is the proof. They haven't been shy in the past about releasing faces of dead targets. Already we are hearing he was buried at sea to meet Islamic law...since when did the US special forces give a dam about islamic law?

As an American I can honestly say, one of the great things about Barrack Obama, is he's giving the rest of the world respect. This is unlike former presidents, however it's a good thing if you ask me. I'd hate to see more people be killed, just because they decided to release the pictures. If they say he's dead, I'd have to say I believe them.

(and PS, I know this was posted WAY earlier in the discussion... but whatever haha)

Anton, Bear's den
07-08-11, 10:17
http://www.myfoxphilly.com/dpp/news/local_news/Copy_of_USUSAfghanistan_33768033

http://abcnews.go.com/International/helicopter-shot-25-navy-seals-dead-crash-afghanistan/story?id=14245387

http://www.news-press.com/article/20110806/NEWS01/110806002/Navy-SEALs-among-dozens-dead-as-U-S-chopper-shot-down?odyssey=tab%7Cmostpopular%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE

According to mass media, Taliban shot down Chinook helicopter with US Navy Seals, many were from so called "SEAL Team Six ", participants of the operation to eliminate Osama bin Laden

The Associated Press has learned that more than 20 Navy SEALs from the unit that killed Osama bin Laden were among those lost in the crash