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spongetaro
31-05-11, 21:38
Most of male DNA was found to be haplogroup G2a with some I2a. the absence of haplogroup E is intersting


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/y-chromosome-mtdna-and-autosomal-dna.html

Taranis
31-05-11, 21:53
Fascinating. And I agree. The absence of Haplogroup E is interesting, and unexpected.

What was to be expected (by now, at least), however, is the overt absence of R1b.

spongetaro
31-05-11, 22:03
The other surprise is the absence of haplogroup J in a Printed Cardium Pottery site. The Cardium Pottery culture is supposed to have followed the mediterranean route:
4839

Taranis
31-05-11, 22:06
The other surprise is the absence of haplogroup J in a Printed Cardium Pottery site. The Cardium Pottery culture is supposed to have followed the mediterranean route:
4839

Well, you probably mean Haplogroup J2 there: the absence of J1 can be explained by the fact that it's tied with Semitic peoples - much of it's present-day distribution was probably solely spread by the conquests of the Umayyad Caliphate, at least that is my guess. But, J2 is even more mysterious, especially since, as the creator of the blog stated, J2 was definitely present in the natives of the Canary Isles, although much later.

Anyways, great find there.

Also, Maciamo will definitely have to upgrade/revise his genetics section big time, assuming he has the time for that, at least. :laughing:

sparkey
31-05-11, 22:15
The good I2a sample gets predicted with 100% certainty by Cullen's Predictor to I2-M26 (current I2a1). That's not surprising--I2-M26 probably has the oldest MRCA of the pre-Neolithic branches of Haplogroup I, meaning that it had likely expanded the most at that time.

spongetaro
31-05-11, 22:26
Also, Maciamo will definitely have to upgrade/revise his genetics section big time, assuming he has the time for that, at least. :laughing:

The absence of Haplogroup E seems to contradict the old theory of the Neolithic spread of haplogroup E-V13 AND matches the conclusions of Dienekes in its article "Expansion of E-V13 explained (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html)":


The age and distribution of E-V13 chromosomes suggest that expansions of the Greek world in the Bronze and later ages were the major causes of its diffusion.

Who was the E-V13 patriarch in Greece? He was perhaps one of the legendary figures of Greek mythology some of whom are said to have come from abroad. For whatever reason, his progeny grew, and were around to participate in the expansion of the Mycenaean world and the subsequent Greek colonization.

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

Taranis
31-05-11, 22:43
The absence of Haplogroup E seems to contradict the old theory of the Neolithic spread of haplogroup E-V13 AND matches the conclusions of Dienekes in its article "Expansion of E-V13 explained (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html)":

Yes, the Neolithic theory regarding Haplogroup E is definitely contradicted by this.


http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html

Yes, it would seem certainly plausible that Haplogroup E-V13 was spread by the Greeks, but in my opinion not exclusively so. The Greeks definitely do not explain the presence of it in Portugal, for instance.

On the other hand, I think the presence of Haplogroup I2a makes a very good case now that Haplogroup I may indeed be Mesolithic.

spongetaro
31-05-11, 22:49
Yes, it would seem certainly plausible that Haplogroup E-V13 was spread by the Greeks, but in my opinion not exclusively so. The Greeks definitely do not explain the presence of it in Portugal, for instance.

I think that E in Portugal is mostly the North African EM81

Taranis
31-05-11, 22:58
I think that E in Portugal is mostly the North African EM81

Hmm, this definitely also raises some questions about the Tartessians...

sparkey
31-05-11, 23:02
On the other hand, I think the presence of Haplogroup I2a makes a very good case now that Haplogroup I may indeed be Mesolithic.

How so? I think it's good evidence that the expansions of the surviving subclades of Haplogroup I are Mesolithic and Neolithic, but I don't think it says anything interesting about Haplogroup I origins.

zanipolo
01-06-11, 08:55
I read that G2a was a southern alpine haplogroup, the french would be on the alpine region I presume.

Did the East german Burgundian tribe bring it to apline french area.

Where does G1 come into play ?

Taranis
01-06-11, 09:02
I read that G2a was a southern alpine haplogroup, the french would be on the alpine region I presume.

The site is actually close to the Mediterranean, some 40 kilometers south of Narbonne. Haplogroup G2a has today however higher concentrations in (mostly) mountainous regions in Europe.


Did the East german Burgundian tribe bring it to apline french area.

Why would you think that? This predates the Burgundians by about 3400 years. What is interesting though is the comparison with the samples from the Linear Pottery Culture, which also included Haplogroup G2a (along with, peculiar enough, Haplogroup F).

zanipolo
01-06-11, 09:08
The site is actually close to the Mediterranean, some 40 kilometers south of Narbonne. Haplogroup G2a has today however higher concentrations in (mostly) mountainous regions in Europe.



Why would you think that? This predates the Burgundians by about 3400 years. What is interesting though is the comparison with the samples from the Linear Pottery Culture, which also included Haplogroup G2a (along with, peculiar enough, Haplogroup F).

currently there is 7% G2a in Austria, 10% in the Veneto, 6% in lombardy and 12% in Italo-french Alpine areas ( savoy and provencal area .....I presume swiss as well ) and grison area.

Taranis
01-06-11, 09:09
currently there is 7% G2a in Austria, 10% in the Veneto, 6% in lombardy and 12% in Italo-french Alpine areas ( savoy and provencal area .....I presume swiss as well ) and grison area.

Yes, but this is relevant exactly how to the Neolithic sites?

Maciamo
01-06-11, 14:25
Finally a sizeable study of Neolithic Y-DNA in Western Europe !

R1b is indeed Indo-European, not linked to the diffusion of agriculture

We now have a definite confirmation that R1b was absent from Western Europe as far as the late Neolithic. The samples here only predate the supposed Indo-European invasion in the Bronze Age by circa 1000 years. The Neolithic site of Treilles is located between Narbonne and Perpignan, in the confine of the Languedoc and the Roussillon. Nowadays this region only has only about 5 or 6% of G2a and around 7% of I2a, against 60 to 70% of R1b1b2a1. This shows how quickly populations can change or haplogroups can be replaced.

European E1b1b and J could go back to the Greco-Roman Bronze and Iron Ages and later

The biggest surprise is the absence of haplogroups E1b1b and J. This was already the case in the German LBK site. This would imply that these two haplogroups expanded later. Dienekes suggested that E-V13 expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. Although it might be true for the Balkans region and Greek colonies, I cannot imagine how the Greeks would be responsible for the presence of haplogroup E in as far as Portugal, Britain, the Benelux, Germany, Poland or Belarus.

I would imagine that both E1b1b and J came from the Near East to Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age, and founded the Minoan and Etruscan civilizations there. Later, the Roman Empire would have allowed people from Greece, Italy and the whole Near and Middle East to travel to Western and Central Europe and spread those lineages. Haplogroups would have mixed progressively across Europe during the Roman period, and continued during the Middle Ages and in modern times. With each century that passes the population of European cities is getting increasingly homogeneous in terms of haplogroup percentages, due to the continuous movement of people.

I have long wondered how it was possible that Iceland had a near complete absence of Near Eastern haplogroups (G2a, E1b1b, J and T) whereas the rest of Scandinavia has a small but significant percentage (ranging from 6.5% in Denmark to 2.5% Sweden). Since Icelandic people hailed from Norway and Denmark, the absence of E, G, J and T in modern Icelandic means that these haplogroups has not yet reached Scandinavia when Iceland was settled 1000 years ago.

Neolithic MtDNA

In the supplemental data (http://www.pnas.org/content/suppl/2011/05/25/1100723108.DCSupplemental/pnas.201100723SI.pdf), I counted the following mitochondrial haplogroups among the 29 samples :

- U => 1 individual
- U5 => 4 individuals
- U5b1c => 1 individual
- K1a => 2 individuals

- HV0 => 2 individuals
- H1 => 3 individuals
- H3 => 3 individuals
- V => 1 individual

- J1 => 6 individuals
- T2b => 2 individuals

- X2 => 4 individuals


Among these, I would place the U5, H1, H3 and V as being of Paleolithic European origin (because they are rare or absent from the Middle East), and the rest as Neolithic migrants from the Near/Middle East. This would give us 41% of Paleolithic maternal lineages. It is to be expected that early farmers married girls from the local hunter-gatherer community, rather than the other way round.

Note the high percentage of X2 (13.8%) which is fairly rare nowadays and is strongly associated with the Caucasus. I have always thought of X2 as the maternal equivalent of G2a, which is why I used the same grey colour for both haplogroups on this website.

K1a, J1 and T2b are also somewhat typical of the greater Caucasus region, including Anatolia the Pontic steppes. These haplogroups are found as well among Middle Easterners as in Eurasian steppe populations, most certainly due to the exchange of wives across the Caucasus region.

Taranis
01-06-11, 14:30
Finally a sizeable study of Neolithic Y-DNA in Western Europe ! We now have a definite confirmation that R1b was absent from Western Europe as far as the late Neolithic. The samples here only predate the supposed Indo-European invasion in the Bronze Age by circa 1000 years. The Neolithic site of Treilles is located between Narbonne and Perpignan, in the confine of the Languedoc and the Roussillon. Nowadays this region only has only about 5 or 6% of G2a and around 7% of I2a, against 60 to 70% of R1b1b2a1. This shows how quickly populations can change or haplogroups can be replaced.

The biggest surprise is the absence of haplogroups E1b1b and J. This was already the case in the German LBK site. This would imply that these two haplogroups expanded later. Dienekes suggested that E-V13 expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. Although it might be true for the Balkans region and Greek colonies, I cannot imagine how the Greeks would be responsible for the presence of haplogroup E in as far as Portugal, Britain, the Benelux, Germany, Poland or Belarus.

I would imagine that both E1b1b and J came from the Near East to Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age, and founded the Minoan and Etruscan civilizations there. Later, the Roman Empire would have allowed people from Greece, Italy and the whole Near and Middle East to travel to Western and Central Europe and spread those lineages. Haplogroups would have mixed progressively across Europe during the Roman period, and continued during the Middle Ages and in modern times. With each century that passes the population of European cities is getting increasingly homogeneous in terms of haplogroup percentages, due to the continuous movement of people.

I have long wondered how it was possible that Iceland had a near complete absence of Near Eastern haplogroups (G2a, E1b1b, J and T) whereas the rest of Scandinavia has a small but significant percentage (ranging from 6.5% in Denmark to 2.5% Sweden). Since Icelandic people hailed from Norway and Denmark, the absence of E, G, J and T in modern Icelandic means that these haplogroups has not yet reached Scandinavia when Iceland was settled 1000 years ago.

Good points! We also now a strong case that Haplogroup G2a was indeed the haplogroup of the Neolithic farmers. Well, plus haplogroup F, if we take the German LBK site.

Taranis
04-06-11, 12:00
European E1b1b and J could go back to the Greco-Roman Bronze and Iron Ages and later

The biggest surprise is the absence of haplogroups E1b1b and J. This was already the case in the German LBK site. This would imply that these two haplogroups expanded later. Dienekes suggested that E-V13 expanded from Greece during the Bronze Age. Although it might be true for the Balkans region and Greek colonies, I cannot imagine how the Greeks would be responsible for the presence of haplogroup E in as far as Portugal, Britain, the Benelux, Germany, Poland or Belarus.

I would imagine that both E1b1b and J came from the Near East to Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age, and founded the Minoan and Etruscan civilizations there. Later, the Roman Empire would have allowed people from Greece, Italy and the whole Near and Middle East to travel to Western and Central Europe and spread those lineages. Haplogroups would have mixed progressively across Europe during the Roman period, and continued during the Middle Ages and in modern times. With each century that passes the population of European cities is getting increasingly homogeneous in terms of haplogroup percentages, due to the continuous movement of people.

I have long wondered how it was possible that Iceland had a near complete absence of Near Eastern haplogroups (G2a, E1b1b, J and T) whereas the rest of Scandinavia has a small but significant percentage (ranging from 6.5% in Denmark to 2.5% Sweden). Since Icelandic people hailed from Norway and Denmark, the absence of E, G, J and T in modern Icelandic means that these haplogroups has not yet reached Scandinavia when Iceland was settled 1000 years ago.

I'm sorry to ask, but aren't you contradicting yourself there: on the one hand, you say that you think that Greek expansion cannot explain the occurence of J/E in northern Europe, but at the same time you mention the absence of all the Haplogroups in Iceland. Wouldn't that suggest that indeed the expansion of the Haplogroups must have been late?

Also, is there any evidence, archaeologically-speaking of Minoan/Greek expansions in the Bronze Age? :thinking:

In my opinion, it's conceivable that the distribution of J2 in Europe is the cumulative effect of Phoenician/Greek and Roman settlements. Specifically, I noticed two issues: the areas where Haplogroup J2 is common roughly matches the expand of the Roman Empire. Seconldy, that there appears to be a peak in southern Iberia which matches the Phoenician settlements (well, there is of course the possibility that the Tartessians had a sizable share of J2, but given how their origins are very obscure, it's hard to say).

LeBrok
04-06-11, 17:07
Could J2 and E in Europe belong to Jews? They settled in almost every country in Europe from around 200 BC onward. This could explain a substantial percentage of E in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe, even though there was no known African slave trade there, or big migration from Africa in last 2000 years.

zanipolo
04-06-11, 21:01
Could J2 and E in Europe belong to Jews? They settled in almost every country in Europe from around 200 BC onward. This could explain a substantial percentage of E in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe, even though there was no known African slave trade there, or big migration from Africa in last 2000 years.

religious groupings of people have nothing to do with genetic migration.

J2 is
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gallgaedhil/haplo_j_j2.htm (http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/%7Egallgaedhil/haplo_j_j2.htm)


E1b1b1 haplogroup is
initially associated ( during the bronze age) with people from the levant ( phoenicians ) and north africa, these people had sea knowlwedge in the medittearean. Some say they where also the sea peoples. The carthagians where from Phoenician stock.
http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/E1b1b1_Y-DNA.htm

below is what seems to be the foundation of the haplogroups

Y (Neohumanid)
A (M91) Sudanid species
BT (M42) Pygmid species
E (M96) Subsaharid subspecies
E1b1b1 (M35) Meditid race
F (M89) Paleoasianid subspecies
G (M201) Caucasid race
K (M9) Asianid race
R1 (M173) Eurasid subrace
LT (Z1) Sindid subrace
IJ (M429) Magnonid race
I (M170) Europid subrace
J (M304) Arabid subrace

Maciamo
04-06-11, 21:21
Could J2 and E in Europe belong to Jews? They settled in almost every country in Europe from around 200 BC onward. This could explain a substantial percentage of E in Central, Northern and Eastern Europe, even though there was no known African slave trade there, or big migration from Africa in last 2000 years.

They surely contributed, but I doubt that they are the main source of E and J among Europeans. The Romans are more likely. They expanded throughout Europe, were the richest and most powerful citizens of the empire, getting more women and children than average. If the enslaved men in conquered populations were often barred from having children and Romans took all the women for them (even fathering the children of slaves sometimes), then there could have been an exponential increase in all Italian haplogroups in the empire, especially in places close to Italy where Latin became the dominant language, i.e. Gaul, Iberia and Dacia. All these regions have in common a fairly high percentage of E1b1b and J2 always accompanied by T and J1. The dominant variety of R1b in Italy, R1b-U152 is also one of the most common in Gaul (France, Belgium, South Germany, Switzerland) as well as in southern England, all places heavily settled by the Romans. Until now I considered R1b-U152 as Italo-Celtic, with a strong association with the Hallstatt and La Tène cultures. But if E1b1b and J2 spread like a wild fire in a few centuries of Roman domination (just a hypothesis) then there is no reason that Italian R1b shouldn't have as well.

Maciamo
04-06-11, 21:29
I'm sorry to ask, but aren't you contradicting yourself there: on the one hand, you say that you think that Greek expansion cannot explain the occurence of J/E in northern Europe, but at the same time you mention the absence of all the Haplogroups in Iceland. Wouldn't that suggest that indeed the expansion of the Haplogroups must have been late?


No, I am not contradicting myself. I never said that the Greeks progressively moved up to northern Europe. Their haplogroups may have, after mixing with Italian people after settling in South Italy, then mixing with Gauls, then mixing with Germans, etc. so that, after hundreds of generations, only a fraction of the original Greek genes besides the Y-chromosome remained when the carriers of E-J-T haplogroups reached northern Europe.

I was rather suggesting that E/J spread progressively from the Roman period until modern times by the constant movement of population and intermarriages within Europe. Most people may only move 5 or 10 km away from their birthplace (more since modern transportation), but that is enough to spread haplogroups in every directions on hundreds, then thousands of kilometres as centuries and millennia pass by. The more time passes the more mixed up haplogroups become within a population with open boundaries. The only things that tend to slow down the mixing process are language boundaries and geographic obstacles like seas of high mountains. Nevertheless no obstacle is impassable. Seas are crossed (though more slowly than on land) and languages evolve and get replaced over time.

To sum up, I think that there were several major migrations of E-J-T from Mesopotamia and the Levant to Anatolia, Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age. This included the Minoans, Phoenicians and Etruscans. Then the Greeks started setting up colonies from around the Mediterranean (especially South Italy and the southern coast of France as far as Europe is concerned). The Romans further spread E-J-T throughout their empire, and settled particularly heavily in south-eastern France, which had a climate and geography similar to Italy. The descendants of the Romans all over the empire had their own children, who moved in all directions over the centuries, spreading E-J-T around various European countries, and progressively across borders towards northern and eastern Europe, a process that is still ongoing today.

If this theory is true, we shouldn't find haplogroups E-J-T in northern Europe, including northern France, Germany and Poland during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. It would be unlikely to find E-J-T outside the borders of the Roman Empire (e.g. in Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia, North Germany or Poland) before the medieval period. There isn't exactly a wealth of ancient DNA available, but among the results available (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml), the oldest E-J-T in northern Europe is a E1b1b in northern Germany dating from only 800 years ago. All the other results from Germany were haplogroups G2a, I1, I2b, R1a and R1b. Not a single E1b1b, J1, J2 or T before 1200 CE so far. This would be strange if they arrived during the Neolithic or Bronze Age considering that E-J-T represent as much as 16% of German haplogroups today.

elghund
04-06-11, 23:51
If R1b is going to be found in the Mesolthic area anywhere, where would it be found? The Ukraine or Turkey or elsewhere?

zanipolo
05-06-11, 00:46
it would seem that LT is present in italy , especially the eastern alps ( the raetians and ladini )

http://www.thegeneticatlas.com/LT_Y-DNA.htm

LeBrok
05-06-11, 04:11
There might be another possibility. J E T were already in bronze age in Europe but existed in separate communities, didn't have time to mix with local I and G yet. Whatever the sites where tested might have been not settled by J E T, which preferred other locations.
Just a thought.

zanipolo
05-06-11, 08:47
There might be another possibility. J E T were already in bronze age in Europe but existed in separate communities, didn't have time to mix with local I and G yet. Whatever the sites where tested might have been not settled by J E T, which preferred other locations.
Just a thought.

could be,
I did provide a link on T in the alps in another thread and the Ladini are over 75% T.
To me this means not much movement

Taranis
05-06-11, 10:04
No, I am not contradicting myself. I never said that the Greeks progressively moved up to northern Europe. Their haplogroups may have, after mixing with Italian people after settling in South Italy, then mixing with Gauls, then mixing with Germans, etc. so that, after hundreds of generations, only a fraction of the original Greek genes besides the Y-chromosome remained when the carriers of E-J-T haplogroups reached northern Europe.

I was rather suggesting that E/J spread progressively from the Roman period until modern times by the constant movement of population and intermarriages within Europe. Most people may only move 5 or 10 km away from their birthplace (more since modern transportation), but that is enough to spread haplogroups in every directions on hundreds, then thousands of kilometres as centuries and millennia pass by. The more time passes the more mixed up haplogroups become within a population with open boundaries. The only things that tend to slow down the mixing process are language boundaries and geographic obstacles like seas of high mountains. Nevertheless no obstacle is impassable. Seas are crossed (though more slowly than on land) and languages evolve and get replaced over time.

To sum up, I think that there were several major migrations of E-J-T from Mesopotamia and the Levant to Anatolia, Greece and Italy during the Bronze Age. This included the Minoans, Phoenicians and Etruscans. Then the Greeks started setting up colonies from around the Mediterranean (especially South Italy and the southern coast of France as far as Europe is concerned). The Romans further spread E-J-T throughout their empire, and settled particularly heavily in south-eastern France, which had a climate and geography similar to Italy. The descendants of the Romans all over the empire had their own children, who moved in all directions over the centuries, spreading E-J-T around various European countries, and progressively across borders towards northern and eastern Europe, a process that is still ongoing today.

If this theory is true, we shouldn't find haplogroups E-J-T in northern Europe, including northern France, Germany and Poland during the Neolithic and Bronze Age. It would be unlikely to find E-J-T outside the borders of the Roman Empire (e.g. in Ireland, Scotland, Scandinavia, North Germany or Poland) before the medieval period. There isn't exactly a wealth of ancient DNA available, but among the results available (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml), the oldest E-J-T in northern Europe is a E1b1b in northern Germany dating from only 800 years ago. All the other results from Germany were haplogroups G2a, I1, I2b, R1a and R1b. Not a single E1b1b, J1, J2 or T before 1200 CE so far. This would be strange if they arrived during the Neolithic or Bronze Age considering that E-J-T represent as much as 16% of German haplogroups today.

Ah, I see now what you're trying to say there. That would make perfect sense, well... at least with Haplogroup J2. Looking at the patterns of distribution again, I suspect there may be other patterns at work also with Haplogroups E and T.

Maciamo
05-06-11, 10:13
If R1b is going to be found in the Mesolthic area anywhere, where would it be found? The Ukraine or Turkey or elsewhere?

During the Mesolithic or Paleolithic, I would say neither. R1b was probably still wandering somewhere between Central Asia and the Middle East, perhaps around modern Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq. It is only around the very beginning of the Neolithic (shortly before or shortly after) that R1b settled down in one place, which I estimate to be the southern Caucasus, northern Mesopotamia and/or northern Anatolia. Either R1b people had something to do with the beginning of agriculture, or more likely, they were pushed north by early Mesopotamian farmers to northern Turkey, then moved across the Caucasus (along with a minority of G2a3b1 people) where they met and mingled with R1a people in the Pontic steppe, bringing with them domesticated animals that would lead to the nomadic pastoralist lifestyle of the steppe people.

This migration could have taken place between 7000 and 5000 BCE. I like to think it was before 6500 BCE because the level of the Black Sea was lower (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26078-Black-Sea-deluge-theory-amp-the-Indo-European-homeland) at the time, which made the crossing of the Caucasus along the coast easier than it is today. The deluge of 6500 BCE could also have been the reason why they moved north, losing a big part of their North Anatolian homeland. Alternatively, we could imagine that they had already colonised all the eastern Black Sea shore before the deluge, and that the sudden rise of the sea level cut the R1b society in two groups : Anatolian and Pontic steppe.

The Proto-Indo-European language probably evolved from the language spoken by these early Neolithic R1b in northern Anatolia. Proto-IE shows influences of Caucasian, Hurrian and Semitic languages, which were all neighbours (Caucasian being G2a, Hurrian G2a and/or J2 and Semitic E1b1b and J1). This explains why Antolian branches of IE languages (like Hittite) are more archaic than all the other branches, which evolved after the "exodus" to the steppes.

I made a Flash map (almost exactly two years ago, in May 2009) illustrating the historical migration of R1b through the ages (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#R1b).

Maciamo
05-06-11, 10:38
There might be another possibility. J E T were already in bronze age in Europe but existed in separate communities, didn't have time to mix with local I and G yet. Whatever the sites where tested might have been not settled by J E T, which preferred other locations.
Just a thought.

It is possible indeed. But all early farmers in eastern and central Europe evolved from the tiny Sesklo culture in Thessaly. LBK samples showed only F and G2a (F could be Caucasian but just as well indigenous European Cro-Magnon). There was only one clearly separate diffusion of agriculture from the Danubian route, and it was the Mediterranean route. Since it was recently shown to be clearly G2a, I think that the most likely is that J-E-T arrived later. It's hard to imagine how whole communities with a single point of origin and a small founding population could end up with one village being exclusively G2a and others having plenty of E1b1b, J1, J2 or T. Unless this Treilles site was just a single big family with one grand-father, many fathers and many many boys. But then why would Sardinia have so much G2a and I2a but very little J-E-T outside the areas settled by the Phoenicians and Romans ?

I agree that a latter Neolithic wave, recolonising all the territories already settled by G2a, is possible. However they would have needed some sort of military advantage to dislocate the long established G2a communities. This is why the Bronze Age is more likely, since it was the single biggest evolution in military technology since the invention of wooden and stone weapons by, who knows, Australopithecus (?).

Yet, I am pretty sure that the Pontic steppe nomads had a better chance of invading Europe first, before Middle Easterners. The reason is fourfold :

a) steppe nomads were mobile (not tied to land like farmers) and prone to migrations in search of new land for the herds, especially if the weather had been bad, or on the contrary if it was too good and their population was increasing too fast.

b) the Bronze Age started around the Caucasus, far from Greece, but next-door to the North Caucasus and the Pontic steppes. It is proven archaeologically that Bronze technology reached the steppe very early, notably the Maykop culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maykop_culture) and the related Kemi Oba culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kemi_Oba_culture), which started around 3700 BCE, well before the Mesopotamian Bronze Age (2900 BCE), Levant Bronze Age (1850 BCE), Anatolian Bronze Age (1700 BCE), Greek Bronze Age (1450 BCE), or even the Egyptian Bronze Age (3150 BCE). The world's first sword (of course made of bronze) was found in the Maykop culture. Armed with bronze swords and axes, they would have been unrivalled against other people on Earth armed with wooden and stone weapons.

c) these steppe nomads had the great advantage of being the world's only horse riders at the time, a tremendous military advantage but also a unique way of moving very fast across the continent.

d) there is ample archaeological evidence of Bronze Age migrations from the Pontic steppes towards Europe, followed by the destruction of the early cities of Old Europe (Neolithic settlements of the Balkans and the Danubian basin).

The steppe people had Bronze weapons earlier, moved faster, had better reasons to seek new land, less attachment to their own land, and clearly did invade Europe in the Bronze Age. Once they had settled in Europe, it would have been extremely hard for Middle Easterners to penetrate into Europe. Indo-European weapons around 3500 BCE were nearly as good (though less beautifully crafted) as that of the Celtic weapons against which the Greeks and Romans fought (those Gauls that plundered Rome twice and Delphi once), those feared by Alexander the Great himself.

So unless these Indo-Europeans were not just R1b, G2a3b1 and R1a, but also included E1b1b, J1, J2 and T lineages, I cannot imagine when and how Middle Easterners could have spread throughout Europe before the Roman imperial machine was in place. However, if these Indo-Europeans also carried J-E-T lineages, which is technically possible considering their Middle Eastern origin, J-E-T would be found everywhere in more or less equal proportion alongside R1b (and R1a). One possibility is that there was indeed a small minority of J2, E1b1b and T (+ G2a3b1) accompanying the R1b hordes, and that the surplus of J-E-T in southern Europe came with the Phoenicians, Jews, Greeks and Romans.

archaiocapilos
10-06-11, 17:00
The absence of Haplogroup E seems to contradict the old theory of the Neolithic spread of haplogroup E-V13 AND matches the conclusions of Dienekes in its article "Expansion of E-V13 explained (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html)":



http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2008/07/expansion-of-e-v13-explained.html


E-V13 can't be Greek only. Perhaps it was present in the European homeland of Indo-Europeans (somewhere near the Danube) and spread from there to central Europe and later it was involved in the Greek colonization. Nowadays it is spreading with Albanians again.

spongetaro
10-06-11, 18:11
E-V13 can't be Greek only. Perhaps it was present in the European homeland of Indo-Europeans (somewhere near the Danube) and spread from there to central Europe

If it was present in the European homeland of Indo-Europeans, E-V13 would have been higher in the British islands

iapetoc
10-06-11, 22:58
E-V13 can't be Greek only. Perhaps it was present in the European homeland of Indo-Europeans (somewhere near the Danube) and spread from there to central Europe and later it was involved in the Greek colonization. Nowadays it is spreading with Albanians again.

are you sure?

All the evidence prove the opposite,

E-V13 is not connected with Danube but with Peloponese.

zanipolo
10-06-11, 23:05
are you sure?

All the evidence prove the opposite,

E-V13 is not connected with Danube but with Peloponese.

its an ancient epirote culture



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_%28Y-DNA%29#E1b1b1a1b_.28E-V13.29

some say , homeland of the doric people.

zanipolo
10-06-11, 23:07
During the Mesolithic or Paleolithic, I would say neither. R1b was probably still wandering somewhere between Central Asia and the Middle East, perhaps around modern Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq. It is only around the very beginning of the Neolithic (shortly before or shortly after) that R1b settled down in one place, which I estimate to be the southern Caucasus, northern Mesopotamia and/or northern Anatolia. Either R1b people had something to do with the beginning of agriculture, or more likely, they were pushed north by early Mesopotamian farmers to northern Turkey, then moved across the Caucasus (along with a minority of G2a3b1 people) where they met and mingled with R1a people in the Pontic steppe, bringing with them domesticated animals that would lead to the nomadic pastoralist lifestyle of the steppe people.

This migration could have taken place between 7000 and 5000 BCE. I like to think it was before 6500 BCE because the level of the Black Sea was lower (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26078-Black-Sea-deluge-theory-amp-the-Indo-European-homeland) at the time, which made the crossing of the Caucasus along the coast easier than it is today. The deluge of 6500 BCE could also have been the reason why they moved north, losing a big part of their North Anatolian homeland. Alternatively, we could imagine that they had already colonised all the eastern Black Sea shore before the deluge, and that the sudden rise of the sea level cut the R1b society in two groups : Anatolian and Pontic steppe.

The Proto-Indo-European language probably evolved from the language spoken by these early Neolithic R1b in northern Anatolia. Proto-IE shows influences of Caucasian, Hurrian and Semitic languages, which were all neighbours (Caucasian being G2a, Hurrian G2a and/or J2 and Semitic E1b1b and J1). This explains why Antolian branches of IE languages (like Hittite) are more archaic than all the other branches, which evolved after the "exodus" to the steppes.

I made a Flash map (almost exactly two years ago, in May 2009) illustrating the historical migration of R1b through the ages (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/neolithic_europe_map.shtml#R1b).


what about the influence of the Gravettian culture , was that not franco-iberic ?

iapetoc
10-06-11, 23:19
its an ancient epirote culture



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b1a_%28Y-DNA%29#E1b1b1a1b_.28E-V13.29

some say , homeland of the doric people.


well the exact position today in Greece shows no connection with Doric, but with Achaic people, with Danaous as Homer say,
not with Epirus,
Remember Danaos and how Homer name the Greeks in Ilias, Danaous,
so the case of Epirus is mostly out,

so the exact place fits with History that Dorians expel achaians at north peloponese,
E-v13 is connected with Myceneans not Dorians,