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iapetoc
01-06-11, 10:12
Well after Spain more than 3 days now Greek people full of Angry are free to protest,

Seems like the modern 'Spain revolution'
shows the way.


what had happened and it started so late,

i will write a lot later cause I have to go to work,

But the first I want to share is this,

for first time protests are unequal and not political by party forms,
I mean they are not patronised by parties, so every one can express his opinion and no one should argue,
I mean it is a massive awaking protest, and not a party political,

plz do not reply until I write covering most.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tpWTjyy1dp8/TeV_GjV_DaI/AAAAAAAB_Zg/2puXKuDy2fI/s1600/aganaktismenoi1_232x.jpg

Thessaloniki
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gwF8J2N2BM&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gwF8J2N2BM&feature=related

iapetoc
01-06-11, 10:26
to understand that

1 Andreas Papandreou harvard proffesor
2 Con/ne Mhtsotakis his son finished Harvard
3 Ntora Mpakoyiannis his brother finished Harvard
4 Cost/ne Karamanlis the young, his first cousin finished Harvard, he finished Tufts university
5 Ger Arsenis MIT finished,
6 antonis Samaras Harvard University,
7 Konstantine Simitis finished economics in Germany

the joke of Modern Greeks is the bellow as told by Theodorakis,

Greek ceasars of economy found NEW MATHEMATICAL LAWS

+5 +5 = -5 !!!!!!!!!
+5 from taxes in market
+5 from cut sallaries
-------
-5 to the 'little pig' that gov stores money !!!!!!!!!!

from 1984 the policy of Greece was λιτοτητα Frugality

all we hear is that we put that tax to gain +5 or we take that measure to earn +5
and always the result is -5 !!!!


http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-gMpUcctMQGE/TeNg3mB74NI/AAAAAAAAC6Q/eIddMgQRpcg/s1600/29.5.11-16.jpg



PLZ WATCH CLEARLY



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AG0zL1ZIw08&playnext=1&list=PL4FA27BD6E97A5B2D

that is the system that Harvard people gave to Greece

'Money exists' in a quick time Biilions were found to save Banks'
http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=188812607838348&set=o.103765602993638&type=1&theaterhttp://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=188812607838348&set=o.103765602993638&type=1&theater

iapetoc
01-06-11, 10:54
The last 10-20 Years the model of protest was that,

1 a party or a syndicate started a protest
2 people gather,
3 people with masks entered and throw Molotov bombs to policeman,
4 Police starts a full war with Chemicals and beating everyone with hate,
5 in 1/2 an hour the protest belong to past,

the new model,

I have the right to protest what ever I say,
I don't allow any masked man to enter in area of protest,
I allow police forces to walk among protests, but with out chemicals or globs etc,
It is a protest and not a revolution,

iapetoc
01-06-11, 10:58
well a lot have been heard to these protests

I give a Video about Saloniki


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B2IPE0CNcvE&feature=related


to translate a few

Κομα and Κωμα koma-party koma-coma

'until when we will live and vote in the coma'
modern parties are just like living in a coma, you vote you hear, you obey what they say, and you don't have the time to think.

another one,
Για να ευημερησουν οι τραπεζεσ πρεπει να πεθανουν οι ανθρωποι?
How many people should die so the Banks be prosper??????

another one,
Οι πολιτικοι ειναι ξενοι μισθοφοροι
Politians are nothing but mercenaries !!!!

iapetoc
01-06-11, 11:21
Greek police is the most dirty in europe

a special force of them the YMEA

the last 5 years many videos came out,

I give the last of the 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F80_Ogom6M

Greek police is only afraid of cameras
LOOK carefully the video,
The stop violence when they realize that a camera is recording.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gbod5ZiwDY&feature=related

same again they stop cause someone shout CAMERA.

Part 2 THE BOOBIES (Mask wearing people)

in Every Greek protest there was always a group that were masks, breaks everything, and challenge the armed police,
who are they?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w85uL9ya7GA

in the bellow mask people arrest a citizen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWMGK08-O4A&feature=related

there is also another mask people class,
the party soldiers, or the brothers of the criminals,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rk5gLFK4-vI&feature=related

the above was done to support a maskman (non police)
that robed a bang and was arrested by the help of a citizen,
the thief was a party member,
so the second group of the mask men are just criminals or party members,

there is also a 3rd group, the Idealists.
I lved a case when i was in Thessaloniki,
1 night they ring all bells of the houses,
'come take your cars we will burn the bank'
the even had A speaker,
they wait 20 min and they burn the bank,
most cars were saved,
in another case they broke 2 markets of a huge chain, they took all the eatable,
and the next day they shared them to poor neighborhoods wearing masks. !!!!!

iapetoc
01-06-11, 12:16
The Greek depth starts from 1830 about,
3 loans were done,
the 1rst never reach Greece,
it was done in England and money stay in England!!!!!!

the 2nd was given to church and politicians!!!!!!
the 3rd manage to establish the Bank of Greece and first Gov-publick assistance.

there are the 1870 loans, the WW1 loans etc,

in WW2 Greece had the biggest suffering in % of population from all allies,
Economy was destroyed, mass death etc,
After that Civil war

so for 8 years Greece was in wars and could not manage to reconstruct

at 1950+ start the first Aid

with that money started the Athens and Piraus industrial zone,
Italy make a Hydroelectric plan in order to pay for the war,
Germany????
Simply took 150 000 Greek healthy workers,
No payment for the massacres or the destructions,
or Greek politicians never ask them !!!!!!

later from 1960+ starts the industrialization of Greece,
Huge industries, corporations etc,
the Onasis times,

suddenly 1967
a USA pushed military Junta
the Cyprus case etc,
King that want to be prime ministers,
prime ministers that want to be Kings,
military officers that want to be both .....

that era stops at 1990 mostly but for many is still on,
simply 25% of the greeks still vote left or right cause a realtive of them was killed by Communists,
or a realative was killed by the Rights.

Greek de-industrial times start from 1980 and after.
Big Industries and corporations left country due to a new, Xtra taxation system, that could demand taxes from 20 years before !!!!!!!!!
and many others

iapetoc
01-06-11, 12:43
in 1978 Greece enters EU with out referendum

from 1974 no referendum in Greece

Greece enter Eu, Eurozone, Maastrich (whatever) Lisbon treaty without 1 referendum,

Greece enter IMF without 1 referendum etc

that means that Greek people and Greek system of Demokratia (modern) stinks
the only democracy is to change people, and decide which face will govern you,

WE CAN NOT DECIDE ABOUT OUR FUTURE,
A politician can change, many politicians say other before and other after elections,

Kostas karamanlis promised a clean gov and send Thieves to prison, but in his Gov, Scandals with Church broke, also with SIemens.
and he sent no one to prison,
George Papandreou Before elections He was certain and said Money exists,
Greece is not in Crisis, simply the opponents are blind,
well in 2 months he change his promise,
money do not exist, lets call IMF


if in a country no referendum is asked or done,
THEN HOW COME IS THE PEOPLES CHOICE.

REAL DEMOCRACY DEMANDS REFERENDUM AND NOT GALLOPS BY COMPANIES THAT ARE PAID BY PARTIES OR BY BANKS

Riccardo
01-06-11, 12:48
Greece is the first step of what it means an Europe with an only economy united, but without a common political line to all the states. What a shame!

iapetoc
01-06-11, 13:25
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OHGO2ZYxavc

The above is all
Tsoukatos admits that he took maney from Siemens and put them in Bank account of the party

as Tsoykatos there are many in ALL PARTIES
I can give a list of names,

I will give 1 from each party

1 Boulgarakis
2 Florakis Φλωρακης
3 Konstantopoylos Κωνσταντοπουλος
etc

Simply corruption is everywhere in all parties,

The Greek parliament vote a law, they became judges
according that they examine the scandals
and ALL TIMES THEY COVER THEM

seems like Piotr Kropotkin was right,

if Judges politicians military bankers become one, then?
what the difference with a tyranny or an Oligarchy,

Lets have a look at the salaries,

a worker took 780 E per month.
a public assistance 1200 E per month to 2300/month
a gov 1800-4000/ per month
a Judge started from 1500 to 5500/ month !!!!!!!

are we nuts x7 the sallary of a worker!!!!
besides, a judge also cost 4 policeman that quard his house,
means 13500 / per month cost judge !!!!!!

then why judges should investigate scandals???
they have a policeman to take their kids to school and are payed X7
No need to invest corruption or punish it,

!!!!!!!!


Journalists?

hmmm

3 types
the 'good' he is serius, and take report from minister in TV
questions are given before, and never ask bad questions
the 'Bad' always find conspiracies and small corruption, he is wealthy and and can be hired not to speak, blackmail people
the 'ugly' well they are funny the always write after a political view,
for example a car accident and 1 man killed, resposible is the X gov that make the road!!!!
and not the drivers !!!!

some type A journalists that are the Junda in information are paid 600 000 E per year!!!!!


the bellow is characteristic
it was done by previous gov and still continues,

Each party creates some small committee to give advise to Gov,
I said it was also done by previous
well the modern case I create fire 16 000 workers,
But I hire 500 party members in a committee that is about Crete developement!!!!
the workers took 1200-1500 each, that committee is paid 3000 E each !!!!!!!!
what frugality!!!!!!!

iapetoc
01-06-11, 13:46
well
in this chapter I will try to explain the problem,

Year is before the Euro,

Simitis is a political dead, prime minister,

he conviced as a puppet All Greeks to invest in Greek stock exchange,
Maajority lost their moneys in balloon share,
some smart get rich in few hours,

so to stay in History what he should do,

Enter Greece to Eu

He takes a secret Loan from Goldman Sachs, that will start to paid after 8 years,
Sudenly Greeks realize that they have to pay an extra loan!!!!!!

An Austrian judge search the case and finds him quilty against Eu laws,
But no Judge in Greece, cause parliament covers the scandal,

By reports we know that GERMAN BUNDES BANK KNEW THE CASE AND THE LOAN
THEY KNEW ABOUT THE LOAN, THEY STAY SILENT,
CAUSE A HUGE SUBMARINE BARGAIN WAS IN PROGRESS,
CAUSE GERMAN CHAIN MARKETS INVEST IN GREECE
CAUSE SIEMENS IS EARNING FROM THE GREEK CONSTRUCTIONS OF OLYMPIC GAMES TRAINS ETC

so they stay silent that time but shout later,
when???
When oil and gas is found around Greece.
why?
simply Money smell

who is Goldman Sachs

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304066504576347190532098376.html

iapetoc
01-06-11, 13:51
IMF

IMF when first come to Greece all greeks were wandering

IMF challenging Greeks

IMF hired an appartment for 150 000 per year !!!!

when a greek pays the most expensive 400 E for month 5000 per year.

simply from that IMF became enemy,

IMF is not interested on how people live or what they eat,
IMF is interesting to save Banks and not people,

THEY ARE WEALTHY RICH PEOPLE WITH PORCHE WHO TAX CITIZENS.

iapetoc
01-06-11, 14:00
Although Funny,

a war is among Greeks and Spiegel magazine,

well we don't care

Angella was wright in many,

Yes Greece had some bad politic in gov and public assistance,

military, police, etc could have retirement at age of 45
women working in public ass could have retirement in age of 45 if have 1 kid under 18
and worked 15 years
that indeed was an expensive to the state,

that could be a problem,

But why Angela told that today?
and not yesterday?
that is from 1990+ laws,
and change in 2010,
Germany knew that all the time,
why the exact time?

!!!!!!

iapetoc
01-06-11, 14:06
the problem of Greece is not that is bad economy,

in Fact it is very healthy,

some laws should change before 10 years,
but change later,

the main problem is the CDS
the banking Loans pay,

Why Greece must pay x5 the money that borrows than Germany?
why IMF is not invastigating what is behind??????

if Germany has borrow 100 will pay 150 in a 10 years
Portugal 350
Greece 500 !!!!!!!
what is behind that policy????

Well an answer to Spiegel magazine,

WE DON'T SELL

iapetoc
01-06-11, 14:39
The dillemas Gr Διλλημα

the 2 solutions issue

1967 Junda or Anarchy
1974 Karamanlis or Tanks
etc
2011

DRACHMAS OR EUROS


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6JfMUX7Pds


well the woman is Maria Δαμανακη Damanaki
she is EU as a cosult or somethink

she was in Polytechneio revolt in 1973
she has photos before that will CIA head Robbin
she was in Left Eurocommunists party as a LEADER,
she jump to Socialists when her carrer in Left was over.
and Now she speak as the Conservative person
Putting the dillemas that ex-right-Natioanalists Did
1967 Junda or Anarchy
1974 Karamanlis or Tanks

Who are these people?
they cooperate with CIA???
They Are left Idealist people?
They are conservatives?
For who they Work?
Why they put Dillema????

SIMPLY POLITICIAN IS A JOB, AN ACTOR, A PUPPET
they can move and say what ever YOU want as long as you pay them,
they give hope and few E to poor people,
and they Sell souls cause they don't Belong to them

well an answer to the dillema is that
the 3rd solution

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goudi_coup

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_of_the_Six


Miss Damanakh in REAL DEMOCRACY THERE ARE NOT DILLEMAS
THERE ARE ONLY SOLUTIONS
plz help Greece by suicide your self and give solutions and not terminals

The boy in 1rst videos is still in Hospital, suffering from head injury,
why? cause he protest against your dillemas????

iapetoc
01-06-11, 14:58
how is economy today in Greece

000 of small corporations stoped,
they moved to Bulgaria Turkey Albania
or eternal closed,

the first thought was to go to Fyrom, but the hostility there is Big
simply they lost the chance to strenght their economy

300 000 Greeks moved to bulgaria to work in Greek business
more than 750 000 greeks left for Eu to work
most of them are scientists and Ms or PHD

I my shelf would also leave but I am aged enough.

I close my small construction company due to an extra tax of 25%,

sallaries fall to 400 E
while electric current for 4 member family reach 100 and water and telephone you need 180E per month with no internet, no tv watch no aircondition etc

people start to live in 2 rooms than 3 that was before,

Market

market is dead for the Greeks
taxation on 13-15% to food from 6% and the new 23% that is about to come surely make greek to go buy untaxed,
the Good is that Greeks started to eat mediterennean again,

they go to farmer and buy there, and not from markets so not to pay tax,

the surprising is that Before Euro a water mellon of 8 kilo coast same prize with1 kilo of Gouda cheese
today 1 kilo of Gouda cheese is cheaper than 1 water melon of 8 kilo
but if you have a know farmer you go and buy from him,
Market and jobs that are connected with market survive only in Athens
rest of Greece resist the taxation.
Simply is a Bank policy to sell cheap meat and Cheese and sell expensive Fruits and vegetables!!!!
why?
in 2000 with 1 Dmark you could buy 3 kilos of peaches,
today with 1 Euro you buy 3 peaches

in the local market before 1 week spaggeti from another country was sold illegal but all buy,
why? simply poor Greeks are not willing to pay the stolen or the high life of the Gov assistance, of party members, etc

about smoking and tobaco is very funny,
how many of you make your own blend?



Ok I am finished you may write your comments and what ever you want,

Before I must inform you, Greece is still a safe place for vacations,
avoid center of Athens only (not airport)

many Greeks are not willing to sell an inch of property,
Spiegel get lost, we don't sell ...........
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

SAVE THE PEOPLE AND NOT BANKS

Real Democracy is the people choice Referendum and not gallops made by some
not even exit polls

Gavroche
01-06-11, 15:07
THEY ARE WEALTHY RICH PEOPLE WITH PORCHE WHO TAX CITIZENSI understand your point of view, but IMF isn't an "Association of rich people who tax citizens"...

IMF is like a bank...
When a country have an enormous debt (350 billions for Greece), and no bank want to give credit, IMF came and try to help this country and lend money with minimal interest rates...

If the IMF didn't exist, Greece would be in recession, no?
And why nobody pays any taxes in Greece?

iapetoc
01-06-11, 15:46
The conspiracy theories science fiction are giving an Axis of Germany and Turkey Nabuco

and an Axis of Greece Iesrael and Cyprus South Stream and its expand to Naples,

Turkey is mood to drill oil and Gas from Aegean and East mediterraneo
German is supporting that due to power that will give her an non North Sea and Non Russian oil and Gas,

Greece is still under CIA agents ministers,
so the time is near to drill!!

who will drill Both Greece and Turkey?
or only 1

the case of Turkey is Helping Germans,
The case of Greeks is Helping Balkans and south Italy France and Spain

the other 2 Bulgaria and Albania are still in silent,

Greek conspiracy theory is that Germans want to Buy land or drilling rights from Greeks to co-operate with Turks,

The above is a science fiction theory
but it is based in the late searches in East mediterraneo bottom, and in the casus beli of naval zone from 6 to 12 miles from Turks to Greece and Cyprus.
and Global interest in Balkans sudenly when South Stream and Nabuco pass.....

If it is true, simply as quick Turkey turn face and became strong than the 1970 Turkey
the same Balkans South Italy South France and East Spain could be the next Industrial zones of Europe,

the many science fiction theories that today are spread in Greece maybe mean something,

iapetoc
01-06-11, 15:49
I understand your point of view, but IMF isn't an "Association of rich people who tax citizens"...

IMF is like a bank...
When a country have an enormous debt (350 billions for Greece), and no bank want to give credit, IMF came and try to help this country and lend money with minimal interest rates...

If the IMF didn't exist, Greece would be in recession, no?
And why nobody pays any taxes in Greece?


that why they use it,
Imf must also establish Balances among Cureency, and examine economies in red,
why they are only used it in last time when damage is done????


CDS before IMF were x6
after the meassures that Greeks took like retirement in 65 CDS raise to x7
After IMF still CDS from 5-5,5
so what the diference?
Bell rang the time of Death?
or isn;t Dead and we make him dead?????


Besides in Global Laws there is also the I don't pay
something that many Greeks wanted to use instead of IMF


why to pay taxes?
ok exept taxes for income or propertie
why the rest? to make rich party members richer!!!

there is a joke commercial about that,
I am nor showing it due not to advertise

USA CALIFORNIA HAS THE SAME and bigger DEPTH!!!!
why they dont sent IMF???????


VONROUST
WATCH CAREFULLY

http://www.ijpartners.com/

1 of them has the 2% of Siemens
2 the first woman WORKED FOR IMF Miranda XAFA


that company was created by the brother of today prime minister
THEY EARN 26 BILLIONS FROM CDS OF GREEK ECONOMY
26 000 000 000 E

who will punish those guys!!!!

IMF WORKERS EARN FROM GREEK CRISIS
IS N'T THAT A SCANDAL!!!!!!!

then what IMF we are talking about????


yeah probably she was NOT driving a Porche but a Bentley maybe.

Gavroche
01-06-11, 16:00
The conspiracy theories are giving an Axis of Germany and Turkey

and an Axis of Greece Iesrael and Cyprus

Turkey is mood to drill oil and Gas from Aegean and East mediterraneo
German is supporting that due to power that will give her an non North Sea and Non Russian oil and Gas,

Greece is still under CIA agents ministers,
so the time is near to drill!!

who will drill Both Greece and Turkey?
or only 1

the case of Turkey is Helping Germans,
The case of Greeks is Helping Balkans and south Italy France and Spain

the other 2 Bulgaria and Albania are still in silent,

Greek conspiracy theory is that Germans want to Buy land or drilling rights from Greeks to co-operate with Turks,

The above is a science fiction theory
but it is based in the late searches in East mediterraneo bottom, and in the casus beli of naval zone from 6 to 12 miles from Turks to Greece and Cyprus.
and Global interest in Balkans sudenly when South Stream and Nabuco pass.....

If it is true, simply as quick Turkey turn face and became strong than the 1970 Turkey
the same Balkans South Italy South France and East Spain could be the next Industrial zones of Europe
Are you serious???
This is paranomia...good-bye...

edao
01-06-11, 16:53
Most people accept Greece, Ireland and Portugal are not likely to be in a position to pay off their debts.

The bail outs are merely there to buy the French and German banks time to get themselves in a stronger position to absorb any restructuring. I doubt it will be a painless process, I imagine the restructuring will be the catalyst for greater EU reforms and significant changes within the Eurozone.

I hope the reforms bring further European intergration for the countries that want it and not a general break down and protectionism.

iapetoc
01-06-11, 16:54
Are you serious???
This is paranomia...good-bye...

Nope that is paranoia, is a theory that is spread in Greece by many,
I have to write it
as you see it is chapter D
that does not mean that I share it But as engineer I know quantities,



paranomia is the 26 000 000 000 E that IMF worker earned from Greek crisis.

LeBrok
01-06-11, 16:58
I agree, if not IMF Greeks would be in much deeper shit. What's funny that almost no Greek gets it, lol.

I know people protest here and in Spain from all the desperation. What would they would like to change? They already have democratic systems, right?
It reminds me of people's revolts in Middle East, but in case of Greece and Spain there is no tyrant to blame for hardships, no freedoms to gain by system change. People have only themselves to blame for the mess.
Everybody's unhappy now, but nobody have a solution how to fix it. Nothing is going to change in this case. Maybe few politicians will lose positions, and be replaced by others who can promise even more. That's all.

LeBrok
01-06-11, 17:04
Most people accept Greece, Ireland and Portugal are not likely to be in a position to pay off their debts.

The bail outs are merely there to buy the French and German banks time to get themselves in a stronger position to absorb any restructuring. I doubt it will be a painless process, I imagine the restructuring will be the catalyst for greater EU reforms and significant changes within the Eurozone.

I hope the reforms bring further European intergration for the countries that want it and not a general break down and protectionism.

But giving Greece more money means bigger loses when Greece goes bankrupt. It's not good for banks, or German and French taxpayers. The faster they go bankrupt the better for everyone.

iapetoc
01-06-11, 17:30
I agree, if not IMF Greeks would be in much deeper shit. What's funny that almost no Greek gets it, lol.

I know people protest here and in Spain from all the desperation. What would they would like to change? They already have democratic systems, right?
It reminds me of people's revolts in Middle East, but in case of Greece and Spain there is no tyrant to blame for hardships, no freedoms to gain by system change. People have only themselves to blame for the mess.
Everybody's unhappy now, but nobody have a solution how to fix it. Nothing is going to change in this case. Maybe few politicians will lose positions, and be replaced by others who can promise even more. That's all.

well that is the problem
as I said All ex prime ministers are involved in Scandals,
As I proved Germans knew about that Before Euro enter our lifes,
why the stay silent then and speak now!!!!!!!!!

I proved you that is not real Democracy but a controled system,

NO REFERENDUM means NO DEMOCRACY
the system changes faces but stays the same!!!!
Judges at least in Greece they can not judge a politian due to a parliament law voted by parliament and not by people,
we need to reconstruct constitution. as in Goudi 100 years before.

to explain else
watch 1 the last video
today prime ministers words
MONEY EXIST in quick time we found millinos to save Banks and not find to save Greece
to months later
MONEY DO NOT EXIST
WE MUST GO TO IMF
a corporation that Bets on CDS earns 26 Billions
shares has the prime ministers brother,

the only way is to revolt
that is the difference
I take president case by saying other, and I do other, no judge can stop me, even after I can not be arrested cause of a law,
I earn billions paranomia and for 4 years I rule,
NO REFERENDUM NO DEMOCRACY

democracy means the will of the majority
since last votes had more 50% white, non voters, cancelled votes non valid?
then
25% is rulling.
what Democracy, and what transparency in the democracy,
All media belongs to them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

iapetoc
01-06-11, 17:55
But giving Greece more money means bigger loses when Greece goes bankrupt. It's not good for banks, or German and French taxpayers. The faster they go bankrupt the better for everyone.


Yes you are right to That,

Greece Don't need take more Loans
Greece needs to reconstruct it self,
I don't know if Inside or outside EU
but surely must do that,
Greece need to reconstruct also constitution
bUT HOW
WHEN THEY PUT SALLARIES TO 400 EUROS TO A WORKER WHILE A JUDGE TAKES 4500 E
AND A PARTY MEMBER IN A COMMITTEE TAKES 3000 E
AND A PARLIAMENT MEMBER TAKES WITH ALL xTRAS ADDED >7800 E

TO UNDERSTAND ALL
I AM NOT SAYING GIVE GREECE MONEY
simply with the same politicians all will be eatenand never reach the people
Simply I am saying to watch carefully some circumstances, I wrote above,

I am not asking asking for money, or to save my country
I am writing to show some of you what is really going on In Greece,

I am enough old to think for my future,
simply some cases I write above prove something


THAT IS THE PROBLEM
SOME POLITICIANS GAIN BY BETTING ON GREEK CRISIS
SOME POLITICIANS DO NOT WANT GREECE IN OR OUT EU
GREECE SI BANKRUPT OR NOT!!!!
WHY TO MAKE IT LONGER????
SO GREEKS NOT REVOLT AGAINST THE FOREIGN AGENTS POLITICIANS FAMILIES?
and stop TRUST EVERY FOREIGN POWER

IF GREECE IS BANKRUPT THEN WHY THEY DON'T SAY SO
TO EARN MORE the WORKERS FROM IMF?????

WHY THEY LEAD GREECE TO LONG TERMS?
TO PAY x3,5 THE moneY???????

UNTILL TODAY NOT EVEN IMF GAVE THE OFFICIAL NUMBERS OF GOLDMAN SACHS THAT GREEKS BORROWED WHY??????????

I WISH a Quick solution so every body must know what is happening

I DON'T LIKE BEING THE PIG THAT RICH PEOPLE AND MONEY VULTURES ARE ABOUT TO EAT.


THAT IS NOT DEMOCRACY
IS OLIGARCHEIA WITH CHANGE OF FACES-Actors

--------

well maybe Greece is bankrupt
but wait, they will make a new corporation
they will bet on that (Greek bankrupt)
and they will anounced it after that they earn >30 000 000 000 E

correct!!!!!!

simply Greeks start to Boycott products and corporations

They are not agry with EUropeans
But
1 with their own politicians
2 with IMF solutions
3 with Spiegel magazine

Greeks do not CARE IF THEY ARE IN EU OR OUT!!
THEY WANT JUSTICE
REAL DEMOCRACY

an example is xminister Souflias, he sold the highways to a spanish bank, with Greeks party members inside, (shares)
toll post raised from 12 E from thessaloniki to Athens to 40E and more!!!!!estimation was that in 5 years if toll post raised 25% same money the state will earne that to sold it
well Souflias is not elected and not to be elected again,
but damage is done, who will punish him for bad hadling of publick property!!!!!
is that democracy!!!!!
in ancient Greece exist a punishment
εξοστρακισμος

what is the punishment for such cases??????
in your democracy?????

Elias2
01-06-11, 18:05
Iapotec, the banks are the ones holding the greek peoples money, if they go under, all the people who had money in those banks loses it. I have to agree with leborke, sometimes people have to face up to their actions. I've been to greece, to areas that were not tourists spots and i could see the problem there and then. This was before the the problem became global.

Greeks have a very wierd sence of business, the ones I talk to in greece and the ones that came from greece to Canada. They like all the government public services, but they don't want to pay taxes for them, so the government has to borrow money to pay for them but it doesn't expand the economy. Also, public service workers get payed way too much compaired to public service workers, which makes people want to enter the government even more! Again this is government to blame, but also people because the people always vote for the party that increase their paycheck and they don't care where this money is comming from.

The greek economy is 80% the service sector!! Half of that is government public service, that's 40%!! that is too much! it needs to be half of that. In order to fix greece it is going to take large changes that will cause alot of people to become angry!! but this needs to be done! Greek economy needs to diversify! but unemployment will reach the spanish level.

I think the widespread tax evasion is the best enough indication that greeks don't want to, or simply can't, pay high taxes, but if athens wants to balance the books on their current revenue they have to cut alot of public services, even making healthcare privatized like in USA. Then they can lower taxes to a more suitable level that fits greeces economy. Lower taxes promote economic growth more than anything!

But this needs large reforms I don't think the average greek understands why.

loladunas
01-06-11, 18:11
I agree, if not IMF Greeks would be in much deeper shit. What's funny that almost no Greek gets it, lol.

I know people protest here and in Spain from all the desperation. What would they would like to change? They already have democratic systems, right?
It reminds me of people's revolts in Middle East, but in case of Greece and Spain there is no tyrant to blame for hardships, no freedoms to gain by system change. People have only themselves to blame for the mess.
Everybody's unhappy now, but nobody have a solution how to fix it. Nothing is going to change in this case. Maybe few politicians will lose positions, and be replaced by others who can promise even more. That's all.











"People have only themselves to blame for the mess."

Untrue, people is partly to blame but much of the blame are politicals, bankers and this global system and here, we are paying the crisis, we, the people alone with welfare cuts. What we want is more control over what politicians do, what banks do with OUR DEMOCRACY, democracy that they are stealing to us, here are assemblies in the neighborhoods everyday, to bring proposals to the government, i don´t know how we want to do, but we don´t want give a vote every 4 years and a blank check, we wan´t more control over them and we don´t want to pay alone this crisis because there are more responsible people here Mr LeBrok. People more responsible than pensioners, civil servants or students and those people have finished raising their dividends this year, while the people have finished watching cut their social rights with no job and no prospect of future... so, ¿Where is the democracy here? ¿This is the democracy? ¿Really?

loladunas
01-06-11, 18:16
I hope the Greeks kick asses, something that they are very good at... a country can´t be insulted like this. So go ahead¡ down with them¡

Antigone
01-06-11, 18:39
And why nobody pays any taxes in Greece?

That's a massive overgeneralisation and simplification and it is also only part of the problem, not the whole. In fact, many people do pay taxes, the country would not function at all if they didn't. But there is also a high number of tax avoiders, particularly from those in the higher income bracket.

iapetoc
01-06-11, 20:17
"People have only themselves to blame for the mess."

Untrue, people is partly to blame but much of the blame are politicals, bankers and this global system and here, we are paying the crisis, we, the people alone with welfare cuts. What we want is more control over what politicians do, what banks do with OUR DEMOCRACY, democracy that they are stealing to us, here are assemblies in the neighborhoods everyday, to bring proposals to the government, i don´t know how we want to do, but we don´t want give a vote every 4 years and a blank check, we wan´t more control over them and we don´t want to pay alone this crisis because there are more responsible people here Mr LeBrok. People more responsible than pensioners, civil servants or students and those people have finished raising their dividends this year, while the people have finished watching cut their social rights with no job and no prospect of future... so, ¿Where is the democracy here? ¿This is the democracy? ¿Really?

that is the point, you are correct,



That's a massive overgeneralisation and simplification and it is also only part of the problem, not the whole. In fact, many people do pay taxes, the country would not function at all if they didn't. But there is also a high number of tax avoiders, particularly from those in the higher income bracket.

Correct antigone
famous singer
I will not reveal his name
his wife elected parliament member,

HE SHOULD PAY 7 000 000 E due to tax!!!!
Finally after an agreement he pays 3 500 000 E
WHY A GREEK WORKER MUST PAY THE REST!!!!!!!!
why to him another treatment and not to me, to you to anybody??
what are we??? 2nd class citizens? or second class Greeks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
3 500 000 E means that every Greek must pay 30 000 E to cover the balance!!!!!!
why they are asking me and all simple citizens to pay and not them!!!!
why IMF is not searching the properties of the politicians etc,

nope EURO OR NOT
European Union or Not Greece soon will start another page,

SIMPLY WE DON'T PAY....

GO ASK THE MONEY FROM SEMITIS KARAMANLIS PAPPANDREOU
not from the greek people

we choose to govern us according their promises

and
NOBODY KEPT ITS PROMISES
YET NO ONE IN PRISON!!!!!
THEY SIGN SECRET LOANS AND BROUGHT US IMF without referendum



Iapotec, the banks are the ones holding the greek peoples money, if they go under, all the people who had money in those banks loses it. I have to agree with leborke, sometimes people have to face up to their actions. I've been to greece, to areas that were not tourists spots and i could see the problem there and then. This was before the the problem became global.

Greeks have a very wierd sence of business, the ones I talk to in greece and the ones that came from greece to Canada. They like all the government public services, but they don't want to pay taxes for them, so the government has to borrow money to pay for them but it doesn't expand the economy. Also, public service workers get payed way too much compaired to public service workers, which makes people want to enter the government even more! Again this is government to blame, but also people because the people always vote for the party that increase their paycheck and they don't care where this money is comming from.

The greek economy is 80% the service sector!! Half of that is government public service, that's 40%!! that is too much! it needs to be half of that. In order to fix greece it is going to take large changes that will cause alot of people to become angry!! but this needs to be done! Greek economy needs to diversify! but unemployment will reach the spanish level.

I think the widespread tax evasion is the best enough indication that greeks don't want to, or simply can't, pay high taxes, but if athens wants to balance the books on their current revenue they have to cut alot of public services, even making healthcare privatized like in USA. Then they can lower taxes to a more suitable level that fits greeces economy. Lower taxes promote economic growth more than anything!

But this needs large reforms I don't think the average greek understands why.


well Elias I have asked about the banks
only 2 banks are in danger the rest are after Central European Bank supervisor

Greeks pay taxes,
Greeks pay taxes according income and property and market.

Greek start to stop paying last years

why every 2 years an extra taxation in property,
it was ETAk it will Αλληλεγγυης etc,
why?
Europe gave the money so greeks to construct a Cadastre
yet Greeks payed extra much enough, in many cases like a field that belongs to 2-3 persons the price was *2*3 for the same property!!!!
why? money eaten by whom?

until last year people that earn more than 11 000 E/year did not had to pay tax of income
from now on people that will earn 6000 years pay tax????
ok lets see
a greek is paying 100 E for electricity simple demands no air condition etc
a greek is paying other 70 per month for the rest, telephone water etc

a greek that takes 6 000 E is about 500 E for month
that means about clear 330 E,
my insurance (and retirement TEE) costs 210 per month
so I have only 110 E per month to raise my family!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and from that I have to pay tax !!!!
to whom? to the wealthy politician families that make companies and gain from Greek crisis!!!!

only solutions,
I will become a non tax payer
I will become a Thieve
I will live in a small 2 room apartment with father and mother and brothers,

That is the Democracy we have,
Simply for 40 years other they promise other they do,

Yes Greeks are paying for their choices,
But is n't the time that Greek politician to pay according their done!!!!!

iapetoc
01-06-11, 20:56
for every one that is curious
that is a 24 hr blog
Although due to I am greek I do not trust everyone

http://news247.gr/ellada/eidiseis/aganaktismemoi-ellada/

there many also, I found that,

latest news
in the 8th day 2 elected parliament members almost to beaten

Police after 1 video I gave before moved the maniac policemans away and stop beating people
that boy a protester may be eternal brain disabled
His sin was that was that he was unemployed
Mask men if they enter are to be after lynch law,

Simply Angry Greeks is a voice that politicians are afraid


"Νιώθω εξόχως αγανακτισμένος και ταπεινωμένος ως πολίτης όταν τα μέλη του Κοινοβουλίου φεύγουν μέσα από τον Εθνικό Κήπο", δήλωσε ο αντιπρόεδρος της κυβέρνησης.

translation
I feel angry and humilated as a citizen when the members of the parliament get away from from the Natinal Garden (not from the infront doors.)


watch the Greek politicians moved away from the parliament

http://news247.gr/ellada/eidiseis/aganaktismemoi-ellada/dhlwseis_politikwn_voyleytes_aganaktismenoi_syntag ma_egklwvismenoi.1093259.html

simply for first time instead of beating protesters
protect politicians.


he is the one that dare to told Greeks
hahaha the money, we eat them together!!!!!!

well we did not the money together, some of us never touch a cent
simply You EAT A LOT,
LET IMF TO SLAIN YOU INSTEAD OF US



in Real democracy ΕΞΟΣΤΡΑΚΙΣΜΟΣ EXISTED

Lets make our democracies real again,
lets give life to our Future
LETS USE OSTRACISM

if a revolt is about to break that is among Greeks and their politicians
not among Greeks and EU countries,
simply spiegel magazine get LOSTTTTTTTT
WE DON'T SELL
YOU EARN ENOUGH BY BETTING IN CDS

Greece with 350 b depth has bigger CDS than others with 750 billions
you know who.

iapetoc
01-06-11, 21:17
By the way, anyone of you that read that thread, do the news in your European show such videos or say what is going on in Athens!!!!

Elias2
01-06-11, 21:22
Iapetoc, even if everything you say is true, greek economy is still 80% service sector! 40% government! this is not good! Major change needs to come! people will not be happy with everything that must be done, but what other choice is there? bankrupcy like russia 12 years ago? Russia still hasn't recovered!

iapetoc
01-06-11, 21:47
Iapetoc, even if everything you say is true, greek economy is still 80% service sector! 40% government! this is not good! Major change needs to come! people will not be happy with everything that must be done, but what other choice is there? bankrupcy like russia 12 years ago? Russia still hasn't recovered!

hmmm ok
lets see

today 8:00 +2 global time, evening news
news in NET tv state public channel

Gov is about to fire 16 000 Greeks that work in public or gov assistance
EU committee TROIKA demands 200 000 people to get fired

8:05
the goverment is about to hire 7 000 people via ΑΣΕΠ

whom they are joking!!!!!!!

Elias2

A GREEK POET SAID
Ειμεθα 1 εθνος αναδελφο
not
Ειμεθα 1 εθνος ηλιθιο

translation
a GREEK POET WROTE
we are a no brothers nation
not
we are a silly nation


elias our problem today is not the future,
we know the future

our problem today is to secure a healthy future
away from families politicians
with real democracy
in the streets of Athens people do not talk about the future and the depth
people are talking on what we should do to change in our constitution,
and on how to secure our future from fortune hunters
on how to create a real democracy

people talk about the day after tomorrow

soon parliament will be closed
its up to them to leave in peace now
or to make Greece Libya and Syria

for 8 days parliament is blocked!!!!!!!
understand that
in sunday only in athens 200 000 protesters

new people do not care if they take 100 or 200 euros
new generations are afraid not to be in such case in future,
not to work and when they get old not to have a retirement
new generations are trying to prevail something like that again in future.

it is simple Elias
we the Greeks will not pay our loans,
cause we never took a cent
if the bankers want their money ask them from miranda Xafa
Semitis karamanlis and pappandreou
we do not pay.

we will not pay the stolen money from the politicians,
if IMF and banks want them
let them have it by the ones that took it,
not by the people,

if bankers want their money
let them go to Hague Netherlands
let them decide about Greek politicians,



http://news247.gr/kosmos/news/article1090861.ece/BINARY/original/london.jpg



look the moodys
Caa1 from B1
why
reason #4
στην αυξανόμενη πιθανότητα η τρόικα να απαιτήσει, κάποια στιγμή στο μέλλον, ως προϋπόθεση για νέα στήριξη τη συμμετοχή ιδιωτών δανειστών σε μια αναδιάρθρωση του ελληνικού χρέους

European committee soon will ask Greeks to put pledge


it is simple send them 1,5 miilion illegal immigrants outside the IMF door or outside the EU parliament and let them kill them, or feed them


Wall Street Journal.

αριστοτελης Καρυστινος
general manager of land property depart.
of Greek Bank (state bank)
our gov is about to sell this and this and this ..... (mon Parness, 15% Rhodes island etc)
1/06/2011


and while Greece is upside down, and people suffer
GREEK PARLIAMENT IS ABOUT to pay 250 000 to 850 X parliament members
according the times that they were elected
1 time 250 000
2 times 500 000

what democracy is to suffer the people,
and the leaders to take millions

only the trial cost >8 000 000 E while another trial (ephesis) is on loose!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elias2
01-06-11, 22:32
The best option then would be a default, we'll see where this goes...

LeBrok
02-06-11, 06:03
iapetoc, who voted for current and previous governments in Greece?

iapetoc
02-06-11, 08:41
iapetoc, who voted for current and previous governments in Greece?


yes I got your point,

well your answer is here


"People have only themselves to blame for the mess."

Untrue, people is partly to blame but much of the blame are politicals, bankers and this global system and here, we are paying the crisis, we, the people alone with welfare cuts. What we want is more control over what politicians do, what banks do with OUR DEMOCRACY, democracy that they are stealing to us, here are assemblies in the neighborhoods everyday, to bring proposals to the government, i don´t know how we want to do, but we don´t want give a vote every 4 years and a blank check, we wan´t more control over them and we don´t want to pay alone this crisis because there are more responsible people here Mr LeBrok. People more responsible than pensioners, civil servants or students and those people have finished raising their dividends this year, while the people have finished watching cut their social rights with no job and no prospect of future... so, ¿Where is the democracy here? ¿This is the democracy? ¿Really?

and here
second video post #2
you will hear the today prime minister to say
MONEY EXIST ...
that was before elections,
and what he did after elections?????

Le Brok understand it,

People vote according the promises of the politicians,
and then for 4 years politician have a 'blank check' to do what they want,

many times before scandals happened,
well that is enough,
Greek people want real democracy and revolting,
the situation reminds Goudi times Γουδη.

you like it or not,
it is a peacefull revolution.

WE SUFFER ENOUGH FROM CIVIL WAR AT 1945-49
WE SUFFER ENOUGH from CIA DICTATORS 1967-1974,

GREEKS ARE NOT GOING TO TAKE GUNS AS MAYBE SOMEONE OF YOU EXPECT,
SIMPLY GREEKS WILL NOT OBEY.

NO ONE GREEK IS GOING TO BE KILLED BY ANOTHER GREEK.
SIMPLY WE DON'T OBEY, AND WE [email protected] SELL
IF YOU WANT THE MONEY TAKE THEM FROM OUR POLITICIANS.

LEBROK GREECE IS AFTER 2 parts today
THE MORALS outside parliament
the THIEVES inside parliament.

a peacefull revolt is on the way.

GREECE HAD THE RIGHT ACCORDING INTERNATIONAL LAW TO ASK THE NO PAY TIME
WHY POLITICIANS DID NOT DO IT???????

well i gave a reason before,

watch the corporation i gave in another post and read the people,
1 of them works for Goldman Sachs also,

So Lebrok instead of blaiming Greek people,
start search who is behind

http://www.ijpartners.com/

they earn 26 billions by bet in Greek crisis,
1 of them works for IMF
1 of them work for Goldman sachs
1 of them has the 2% of allover the world Siemens

that company is created by who????
simply no more bets in our backs
if someone wants to bet, let him bet on Greek revolt now,
or if NATO -OTAN invades Greece.

many greeks in 1978 when Greece enter EEC where happy cause they believed that no more Dictators, no more Civil war,
but nobody told us that will be rulled for 35 years by corrupt,
simply in Greece Goudi is on loose,
and if we manage it,
I believe many European countries will follow,

take it as you like,
either the revolts from North Africa enter Europe,
either a solo case of Greek revolt,
either a revolt against EU,
simply Greeks are after their lost pride,
and don't want bankers and fortune hunters, and son's of Dictators like the one in
http://www.ijpartners.com/
to earn from their backs.

Personally I believe the road that Spain start will pass through all Europe.

iapetoc
02-06-11, 09:40
Corfu yesterday night


http://news247.gr/ellada/eidiseis/aganaktismemoi-ellada/fygadeuthkan_voyleytes_kai_sthn_kerkyra.1093920.ht ml

or


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xj1y2x_01-06-11-yyyyyyyyyyyyyy-yyyy-yyyyyyyyy_news#from=embed&start=15

Greek minister and many parliament members went away by boat and not by street,

60 elected from Greece and Eu were not allowed to walk in the island to go to hotels,
and manage to escape the wrath of people by sea,


The time that Greek people suffer and they are forced to pay high taxes
the same time Angela Gkerekou, a parliament member that her Husband instead of pay his taxes milliions of E pay only half,
they have fun eating at a luxus restaurant,
And the bill goes to the Greek tax payers

NO MORE
REAL DEMOCRACY NOW
OSTRACISM

HOW DARE THE TIME YOU ASK 6000/year PEOPLE TO PAY TAXES
THE SAME TIME TO HAVE FUN EATING A FISH THAT SOME NEVER EAT IN THEIR LIFE,
AND PAY MUSICIANS AND DANCERS AND HAVE FUN
FRUGALITY IS FOR ALL CITIZENS,
GREEK SIMPLE PEOPLE ARE NOT 2nd CLASS CITIZENS,
A greek worker must work 15-25 days to earn the money they spend per person.

primary principal of democracy or Apella or etc
ΑΠΑΝΤΕΣ ΟΜΟΙΟΙ,
All men (of Demos) are equal, that time
All humans that belong to a state are equal, today.

you can not feed Greek people makaroni and chloe and ask him to pay money so some eat
a rare fish or huge delicacy and dance on his back.

that is enough,
they earn a lot on our back

Greeks are humans not cows, to feed them grass and take milk.

Article 120 of Greek constitution
NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO SELL STATE PROPERTY

Antigone
02-06-11, 16:18
who voted for current and previous governments in Greece?

It is not nearly so simplistic as that, but nothing ever is. The previous government WAS elected on its promises to clean up government corruption and the public service sector, it wasn't until the current government (again elected on similar promises) that the true story was revealed along with the extent of the thieving and cover-ups.

So no, the people are not responsible for being lied to, they voiced their opinion (in 3 consecutive elections now) that they'd like the corruption on all levels dealt with, in the only course open to any people in a democracy, at the electrate. They have been cheated, not only of their money, their trust in their government but also of their nations self respect and standing. It is no wonder people are angry.

Of course, there is a third course to go in the Greek electrate. The Communist Party is the third strongest and third alternative party, perhaps you'd prefer the majority began voting that way?

loladunas
02-06-11, 17:16
iapetoc, who voted for current and previous governments in Greece?

you vote, but nobody says that they are going to deliver their promises or going to defend the people´s interests, that´s the problem, you vote every 4 years and there finish the democracy, there is no mechanism to monitor their actions, occasionally something comes up, through a complaint but nothing and no one stops them to not get there. Then there is the ideological factor ¿where are the damn trade unions?, here in Spain, in 80, they paralyzed the country day in, day out, in a very difficult political conditions (in full democratic transition, with E.T.A in full swing, with a franquist sector...) they lobbied the government thousand times more than now, and where the **** are them now? only a general strike in three years, awesome... the feeling is everyone is ordered and nobody is going to represent us, they represent the banks and multinationals and the whole ideology on worker rights is being trampled, and not only here , you may think "oh mediterranean mentality", yeah maybe, but there you have the example of Ireland, Iceland and until it´s your turn no one stops to think about the shit we're all going.

iapetoc
02-06-11, 21:02
well
that is 1 of the latest news

http://news247.gr/ellada/politiki/pagkalos_politiko_grafeio_kinhta.1094533.html

Mr Pagkalos is the one that told the GReeks
hahahaha the money, we eat them together.

well I close my company due to double taxation 23% of market buing and 23% by the owners in building construction of Houses,
I never spend more than 60E per/month sometimes 100 E

He spend 46 319 E for his mobile phone!!!!!!!!!!!!
in one month!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
we Greeks have to suffer more from guys like him

Nop Mr Pagkalos, we did not eat that money together, you ate a lot

I repeat again Angry greeks are not party members they are the 45% that did not vote in last elections
and probably some that vote small parties,

Angry Greeks wants all of them from All parties to move,


well seems like after 'we ate them together'
comes the ' WE SPOKE TOGETHER'

where is the comparison and feelings to Greek people that suffer!!!

YEAH I found it, he spent the money for our good future :grin:

Elias2 I hope you understand why Greeks do not want to pay taxes.

iapetoc
02-06-11, 21:27
HI ANGELA
HI SPIEGEL MAGAZINE

HI LAZY GERMANS


According the LE MONDE and a search of PATRICK Αρτους Arteous (je ne sais pas Francais)
and Institute Natixis Greeks are working more than Germans

the result of economic cooperation organisation are 1.390h / german 2.119/ greek

SO THE MYTH OF LAZY GREEKS AND SOUTH EUROPEANS IS BUSTED
CAUSE GERMANS ARE LOW THAN EVEN THE AVERAGE OF EU
in Fact they belong to the most lazy Europeans
that is in Greek according the LE MONDE transalation

http://news247.gr/oikonomia/ergasia/h_le_monde_apokathista_thn_alhtheia_ellhnes_german oi_ergatikothta.1094100.html



Besides who Blame Spain and Cucumber for the Ecoli, but as the later news it is an Inner Hamburg pollution Bacteria that spread, All victims are connected with Germany as the news say,

Simply who make a millions damage in Spains production, and left 000 of Spanish people with out work.

who will pay Spain for the damage made to them??????

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xj1llh_more-german-e-coli-cases-as-spain-considers-legal-action_news#from=embed&start=6

http://news247.gr/kosmos/news/vakthrio_fonias.1093561.html

Valmir
02-06-11, 22:21
I have a feeling that something will happen to the world and soon, many bad things happend in these last years.

iapetoc
02-06-11, 23:03
I have a feeling that something will happen to the world and soon, many bad things happend in these last years.

Well Valmir out of Party control. just think,

Albania is a country that soon enter EU,

IS REAL DEMOCRACY the case of the municipal elections? How many days to announce who won??????
I Stay that 15 days and did not get a result. so probably more.
well today you may know.

SO the CASE OF REAL DEMOCRACY TOUCH YOU ALSO.

and since you are Albanian I don't know in Albania, but Majority of Albanians immigrants in Greece works more than average Greeks, so that is why you are still poor country,

you are not 'working much like Angela does' :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:

iapetoc
03-06-11, 03:12
well that is video I found,

you can search if is it True

Germany with depth bigger than Greece took secret loans, ST OMO loan
the money missing
Let Greeks pay

WELL BYE BYE ANGELA.
WE ARE LEAVING EURO
BUT WE DON'T PAY

IN CASE YOU DON'T BELIEVE
search the Bellow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVbL8eWwER0&feature=share





I wonder all of you that read that thread,

Is that the Europe that Founders dream?
Is that the Eu that your children want to grow?
Is that the EU that you want?

ok in Greece will ostracism some,
But what about EU central bank and ST OMO loan???
who will judge and who will punish them?

Simply By hearing the above I feel double Betrayed
1 time from Greek politician, cause I am Greek
2 time from EU politicians, since I still consider my shelf European.

simply EU mechanisms did not help the betray


do not need knowledge of special Mathematics
read the bellow

http://www.oftwominds.com/blogjune11/greece-please-default6-11.html


#1 is patently absurd, and so we are left with #2: the banks designed and offered these loans with predatory intent. Now the banks are offering their political lackeys a menu of predation to choose from:
1. Deliver the wealth of the Greek nation directly to the banks via transfer of national assets
2. Deliver the wealth of the nation over time via "austerity" programs that in essence divert the surplus national income to the predatory banks
3. Increase taxes on the "core" Euroland nations' taxpayers to fund a "bailout" of Greece that is in essence a direct transfer of those taxpayers' wealth to the big predatory banks; the "bailout" is just a pass-through to the banks.

-----------

We are constantly warned that the resulting collapse of the "too big to fail" banks would trigger a global implosion. That is false; life would go on after the predators declared bankruptcy and were liquidated. What the predators fear most is an awareness that any disruption in normal life would be brief and relatively painless compared to the vast suffering imposed to render them their pound of flesh.


So the whole Greek crisis,
was designed by the times of ST OMO loan
from 2007-8

so the case of PIGS was design by before. by whom???????

True- and maybe US should do the same by taking examble out of African countries. After all, US has the largest debt per capita after Japan (first in terms of external debt- check the CIA factbook). And just think that poor, bankrupt Greece ranks #8 at the same list.
BUT after that, what?
I still wonder why Angela insulted Greeks

They cheat EC BANK at 2002
But did NOT cheat other countries in 2008 as other did :useless: :useless:
and they work more than she,

:thinking: :thinking: :thinking:

Well in Sunday 5/06 Greeks All Over EUROPE WILL REVOLT for12 DAY

I HOPE GERMAN PEOPLE COME TO JOIN US
AND CREATE
#GERMAN REVOLUTION

FOR REAL DEMOCRACY

iapetoc
04-06-11, 02:39
that is an erase.

Elias2
04-06-11, 04:29
RT is the Fox news of Russia, I don't think its credible at all, and just want to push their own views and agenda.

LeBrok
04-06-11, 05:22
Elias, don't ruin iapetoc's new conspiracy. :petrified:

Iapetoc, what is your solution for Greece problems? Where do you think Greece should go? How do you imagine Greece future regarding political system and economic system?

It's easy to protest, it's not easy to find new ways, especially the once that lead Greeks to prosperity.

I still wish Greeks all the best, but I don't see any substantial solutions.

Antigone
04-06-11, 06:41
RT is the Fox news of Russia, I don't think its credible at all, and just want to push their own views and agenda.

Well you've just described every media outlet in the world, nothing new there. Only a fool would take any media report at face value and the only way is to listen to varying reports, question everything reported and then research yourself to find some form of truth. At least iapetoc is asking the questions and looking for the answers, which is more than can be said for some I read.

Contrary to what the western media is saying, most Greeks do, in fact, realise there needs to be social, economic and political change if Greece has a hope for the future. But before that there also needs to be accountability from those in charge, past and present, before any re-building can begin. So far, the politicians are still in denial, which is why the people are on the streets.

LeBrok
04-06-11, 08:43
It is not nearly so simplistic as that, but nothing ever is. The previous government WAS elected on its promises to clean up government corruption and the public service sector, it wasn't until the current government (again elected on similar promises) that the true story was revealed along with the extent of the thieving and cover-ups.

So no, the people are not responsible for being lied to, they voiced their opinion (in 3 consecutive elections now) that they'd like the corruption on all levels dealt with, in the only course open to any people in a democracy, at the electrate. They have been cheated, not only of their money, their trust in their government but also of their nations self respect and standing. It is no wonder people are angry.

Of course, there is a third course to go in the Greek electrate. The Communist Party is the third strongest and third alternative party, perhaps you'd prefer the majority began voting that way?


Antigone, my preferences don’t mean anything. We are talking democracy, people’s choices, general choices, statistical choices, majority choices. If Greeks go with communist party then be it. That’s how democracy works, right?

The parties lie, that’s nothing new. Politicians lie to get elected, that’s nothing unusual, some people are not honest, and that’s nothing uncommon either. What surprises me is that most people make same bad choices, over and over again.
We are not talking about uneducated population in Nigeria, but about very educated Greeks making poor choices. It’s not only related to Greece but also to majority of countries on earth.
Granted that Greece economy and political life is affiliated with European neighbors and generally EU, and this international situation can spreads some influence over Greece, but this is the Greek government that makes polices of what goes around in Greece. These politicians in government are elected by Greek people, so at the end people decide about major direction of Greece politics and economy. If they are mislead it means that they were tricked into making wrong choices by dishonest politicians. But still it means that people can’t recognize liars. They rather judge politicians by words than by records of their actions. It might also mean that they rather believe in what sounds good for them, what they hope for, instead of analyzing if the said promises are viable, possible, that these promises will work for economy, or for social and political setting.

The bottom line is, either education system is not teaching people of what works in real world, what is possible in real world, how political and economic systems work in real word. Other explanation would be that no matter how good education is, most people in general won’t make good choices.
If the later is true it would mean that democracy will always fail in Greece. If first one is right, then there is a hope for Greece in next generation, of course if education is reformed.

To my understanding general democracy or direct democracy fails to elect the right people to run our countries. There is no question that we should be lead by most intelligent, the most common sense, and the most honest people our countries can produce. If democracy in current form is not the answer, then what is? Either we should reform democracy to find way to elect right people or new system should be invented to do a better job.



Believe it or not Greece situation is not so much different than many individual people. We don’t need huge international conspiracy to understand difficult financial situation.
Let’s say I want to buy a house. With my salary I would need to save for 30 years to buy a house when I’m 55 years old. Being an educated man, I’ve learned that there is an institution, a business that wants to lend me 500 000 dollars, drachmas, whatever you name the money. I could by a house this year but their demand is that I have to pay them 5% a year from unpaid amount, let’s say the conditions of a mortgage. Surely this is my choice what I will do. Wait 30 years and don’t make the bank rich, or live in better conditions in a house for 30 years for a fee.
Surely I want better conditions for me and my family, I’ll pay them, it’s a deal, shake hands. That’s a simple business proposition in our modern world, everyone is familiar with it. I live in a house with a yard, I like it and it’s worth paying for it. Bank is happy too, making money off me, and having more cash to lend to others in similar to my needs. One could say that both parties involved are happy and content.
Unfortunately I got carried away, and asked for a million dollars to get even a bigger house. I barely had the money to pay, the recession came and I couldn’t pay it anymore. The bank gave me more time to pay, but it is still too much, it’s killing me now. I don’t want it anymore. Don’t take me wrong, I still want my big house, but I don’t want to pay the bad bank anymore. It’s crazy to give them so much money! The imperialists, capitalists, CIA, Germans, EU, corrupted liars, all ganged up on us. Screw you!

Sounds familiar?

That’s Greece right now, borrowed too much money to support better standard of living.
It’s nothing wrong to borrow money. It’s a good thing in right circumstances. The balance is needed though. Even a good thing is fatal if overdosed.

The funny thing is that even our governments don’t trust ordinary citizens in financial matter. How much money we can borrow, is limited by government regulations. For example in Canada you can’t borrow from the bank more than you can pay with 40% of your salary, the interest payments shouldn’t exceed 40%. Ordinary, common, simple people, the citizens are trusted to elect the right parliament and president, but they can’t be trusted in financial matters? That’s weird!
What is wrong with this picture?
Of course it should be different for governments, because the smart people there know what is right, and surely they won’t borrow too much money, so much money that we won’t be able to pay back, right?

Oh, wait a minute! It is just happened in Greece.
I don’t need conspiracies to understand roots of Greece financial problems. I don’t need to hear Angela Merkel to know what protesters are unhappy about. In whatever way other countries influenced Greek politics and economy, it is not the cause of Greeks misfortune. Don’t blame others. Greek tragedy, had Greek beginning and will need Greek ending, a solution.

Antigone
04-06-11, 11:38
Nah, don't buy it Lebrok. All you've given is a repetition of the common misconceptions on Greece that are being reported in the west.

It is a bit like me giving you a lecture on the internal workings, problems and mentality of Canada. Having never been there, nor lived there I'd only be able to give you my perception from the outside, which, of course would be nowhere near the reality.

edao
04-06-11, 12:03
Barclays bank forced to admit it paid just £113m in corporation tax in 2009 artilce (http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2011/feb/18/barclays-bank-113m-corporation-tax)


Tax avoidance is going on everywhere, I work with a lot of small to medium businesses in my work and I have many clients who talk freely about how their accountants pay them via dividends to avoid paying 30% more tax. Wealthy people all over the world are doing thier best to hide their money thats nothing new, all economies have to work with this problem. Maybe in Greece the working class are not paying taxes, here generally they are the ones paying their fair share because they can't afford the fancy accountant or lawyer to play the system for them.

I think the fundamental problem all this comes down to is the distribution of wealth in the Capatalist system. Thats a much bigger nut to crack.

Economies recovering from recession generally create healthy growth on the back of new business start ups. In the UK David Cameron has talked openly about the fact the government has no magic wand to get the country out of its problems, but needs peoples entrepreneurial culture to come forward and start business that generate wealth and create jobs.

While I accept the sytem doesn't work very well and the majority of the people are under the thumb of the powerful and wealthy, we all know this already its old news.

The question has to be what are YOU going to do about it?
Not your government, not the EU, not the IMF, not Obama, just you.

At the end of the day the scenes in Spain are very moving, but what will it accomplish, nothing. Young educated people angry frustrated doing nothing, complaining that things are tough. What are the Spanish government going to do throw money out the windows, create fictional jobs, dissolve banks and hand over money to the people?

Governments are powerless now, they're good at spending wealth not making it. The wealth and job creation Spain, Greece and every other country in Europe needs has to come from people taking responsibility, saying ok enough, if I can't get a job if I can't be paid more I'll take control.

The best way to take control in a Capitalist system is to start your own business. If the people in the Squares in Spain were completiting business plans instead of protesting it would be more constructive in providing solutions. If your going to be negative about it you'll only see the problems (lets be honest there are plenty to find).

People need to be positive:good_job: and find solutions, it not easy but then its not easy for anyone.

Elias2
04-06-11, 14:15
Of course media outlets have their own bias but some more than others, and when I watch RT I feel like I'm watching fox news, just the russian version of it.

iapetoc
04-06-11, 16:44
yes it is RT Russian tv, so not official EU media,

But the case is not if ST OMO and rest,
the case is if ST OMO was DONE????

yes it is Left or Right or Conspiracy.

Lets look at the story of Modern Greece,

1945, Greece is under English and USA on 1 hand and Russia on the other,
the result, Greek civil war with millions of victims dead or alive, and the FYROM Issue,
Greeks worked for west world as immigrants of the 50's and in East Europe as exiled from Greece.

1967 Greek Dictatorship and the Kissinger plans against Makarios (Cyprus president)
while Grivas and Eoka and etc are back Greek revolt Polytechneio in which Damanakh was, Brought a new Dictator who Dare to mix with Cyprus politics, why? and by whom pushed,
The result Cyprus is divided due to Greeks, who helped to the LIberty of Cyprus,
The conspiracies are every where.
the modern conspiracies are many,

NOW TO THE POINT,
Yes Greece has a problem in Gov positions, salaries, Public assistance,
Yes Greece was not following the insurance system of rest Europe or Germany,
but that was before Mnemonium 1,
(the agreement with IMF)
Greece is now according German laws and more harder,
NO CDS FALL
Greece enters mnemonium 1
No CDS FALL
fire people from jobs raise taxes to 35% etc,
No CDS FALL

the mnemonium 2
what?

lets see,
1 house, an apartment, cost before measures lets say 200 000 E,
the tax was
1 buy 15%
1 owning (ETAK) every 2 years 1%-4%
1 living (ΦΑΠ) that was payed with electricity
1 E9 according how much big is or how many you have a tax every year of 0% (1 small house own) to 5% (if you have many)

what is happening,
that house according new values cost 300 000 E
Taxes are raised,
you sell it for 75 000, But no body buy,
New houses are to be sold in 1/4 of the price that state tells, but nobody Buy,
why then I should pay that taxes????
When in East block were in Hard times, HOUSES AND VALUES WERE ALSO ACCORDING SALARIES.
why IMF is not doing the same???
it is simple, THEY DO NOT WANT GREECE TO RECOVER!!!!! and pay
Why Foreigners don't buy or Invest in Greece,
Cause Greeks are selling cheap But Taxation Is High

Ok Greek did not manage the standars of Euro. why they don't leave us out of Eurozone??
cause ... etc.

SIMPLY WE TELL THESE GUYS, IF YOU DON'T FEED THE COW, NO MILK YOU GET!!!!

that does not mean Give us money, But help reconstruct market,
AND THAT IS WHAT THEY DON'T DO,

Now about taxation
that is not a conspiracy but an every day life lesson,
I want to write a lot, but you say that I am paranoic and not happening,
just ask some Greeks about the chinese stores in Greece, or visit a china store in Greece and ask a receipt,
then ask me what is happening,

Simply corrupt politicians don't care they care only for their pocket and how to spend the money of the people,


I don't need to give all of you lessons in Democracy,
Democracy is the system that was invented in Greece Sparta (Apella) or Athens (call of Demos),
But remember Παυσανιας, or Αριστειδης ο Δικαιος, (Pausanias general, Aristides)
In democracy power belong to people,
in today represented Democracy power belong to the elected, but they construct a συμμορια (gang)
the case is known and was described by Kropotkin in early 20th century,
now the elected many times avoid people choice, and do not put referendums but they make law so they (the few) earn against the many,
that is not Democracy,
Ostracism was done to afraid politicians the wrath of people

But lets look the today,
if you watch the Greeks news,
only 2 from 5 private channels in news tell about Pagkalos case, and only 3 of 5 the damanakh dilemma
while the 3 state not even to think about.
so media is under control???? I don't know, you may answer that to your shelf
lets see the split of media,
half say that Angry Greeks are just protesting,
and half say that they are democratic revolt, and they block elected and Legal gov, to do his job,

who is right then?
they both are,
But in case of other promise and other done,
or in case that majority protest then, legal is the people choice,

IN DEMOCRACY FIRST IS THE PEOPLES CHOICE
NOT ONLY THE DAY THEY VOTE, BUT EVERY DAY,

so if majority is saying no,
THEN EVERY MINISTER OR PRESIDENT IS ILLEGAL, ALTHOUGH IS ELECTED,

that is a start to understand what real democracy is,

In democracy it is the not king, not the prime minister, not the president above people,,
simply
THEY ARE ELECTED TO EXECUTE THE PEOPLES WILL AND TO HANDLE THE STATE MONEY LETTERS ETC,
NOT TO BECOME 4 YEARS TYRANTS


Nobody has the right to stop the elected on doing his job,
BUT THE MAJORITY CAN EVEN EXECUTE HIM

Demos is a bad word,
Demos was the haunt dog of God Ares (Mars)

so from 1974 until today we learn
1) +5 +5 = -5
the maths of the Harvard fished politicians in Greece

2) serving the people means I eat, I spend, I Buy and people pay

3) I Take decisions according my earn and not the people

4) Tax are to pay only the poor and helpless,
Rich artists, Parliament members, Big corporations, do not have to pay the exact tax,
they can make a settlement, an agreement with state and pay half

5) and something new,
the fake values
your shoes you buy or sell 10 E do not cost 10, but 40 E
how do you like that,
cause that is what feel here, especially in market and properties, and new business
the IMF theory,


if in Sunday 2 000 000 people gather in Athens and Thessaloniki

I Ask All of you who read that, and love democracy
WHO Will Be LEGAL? the ELECTED? OR THE PROTESTERS?

Understand what real Democracy is,
Understand the power of your vote,
Understand the power of your will.

we must stop corruption All over the world,
with our money Banks, with our taxes politicians are building empires and 1 day corporations,

if I use the A Lincoln moto,

Lets start again the gov
of the people,
with the people,
FOR the people

cause it drop to
FOR THEIR SELF


to any of you that know about political systems and Roman History,
tomorrow in Greece, Athens and Thessaloniki,
either Apella or ecclesia will speak and decide,
either 5th Phalanx will strike.
in case some do not understand
http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/griechenland-krise/griechenland-geheimdienst-angst-vor-neuer-gewalt-welle-zerbricht-das-land-an-der-krise-18102150.bild.html

Das CIA-Fazit: Der harte Sparkurs und die desolate Lage lässt die Situation eskalieren, Athen werde es kaum schaffen, das Land noch in den Griff zu bekommen.



Well sometimes I ask my self, If Greece sell her politicians? how much Greece earn???

iapetoc
04-06-11, 18:59
[SIZE=2]
[B]The best way to take control in a Capitalist system is to start your own business. If the people in the Squares in Spain were completiting business plans instead of protesting it would be more constructive in providing solutions. If your going to be negative about it you'll only see the problems (lets be honest there are plenty to find).

People need to be positive:good_job: and find solutions, it not easy but then its not easy for anyone.

oh really do you want me to show you a report of 8000 own business (small companies) that close in 2011?
do you want me to send report of about 80 000 family business that close from 2007???
do you want a list of Big business that were supported by some not to pay tax, and took prim to expand, to struggle middle class?
do you want a list of Greek business that moved to Albania and Bulgaria and Turkey and Romania?

Greece had a strong middle class due to small business family companies,
All destroy due to different policy, they pay tax, while the BIg ones, had tax reliefs and bank help.


yes Edao you right to that
People need to be positive:good_job: and find solutions

BUT

CITIZENS MUST NOT FEAR POLITICIANS
POLITICIANS MUST FEAR CITIZEN


and to honest,

NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO TOUCH AN ELECTED
UNTIL A TRIAL OR AN OSTRACISM

Antigone
05-06-11, 11:38
Edao does make a good point and I don't think closure or relocation of local businesses can be blamed entirely on the government. Sure government does play a part and so do large international chain stores who drive smaller family businesses into closure but for any business to prosper it also needs the support and patronage of the local community. In my experience, many Greeks operate under the false illusion that any foreign product has to be better than local and this mentality also has to change if Greek businesses are to survive.

For instance, I never go to places like Starbucks or McDonalds etc, will always go instead to a local kafeneon or get souvlaki or giro for a quick meal. Whenever possible always buy local eggs, fruit, vegetables and cheeses, Greek made clothes rather than Zara or BHS. There is a lot that everyone can be doing to enable a better future.

iapetoc
05-06-11, 13:17
well seems like it is gonig to Be an inner EU Greek -German fight

4841


the Man of photo is the prime minister of Bayern-Bavaria if I spell it correct.
In his answers to Bild am Sonntag.
he believes that no more Xtra Help should be given in Greece unless measures give results and Greece enter to new Mnemonium #2

in his answer he believes that Greece must not drop the Euro,

well it seems like Germans are pushing the 1 E = 2 $ while Greece and south wants the 1 E = 1 $ :thinking:

it is going to be a hard fight in Europe's parliament if that is so.


I still wonder why many Believe that Greece wants money,
Greece want a mechanism against money Vultures,
smaller CDS according her depth which is simmilar and smaller than others, Japan, USA California etc
and a more flexible Euro so to be in competition to export and not import,
Yes, I must not forget Greece also needs to change constitution and punish some to fight corruption.

so if Angela and her friends wants us out, ok let us out, :cool-v:

I still wonder if we Sell our politicians how much we earn!!!!

iapetoc
06-06-11, 21:40
and the debate still goes on among Greece and Germany.

ITALY TODAY,

the supreme court of Italy has decided that Germany must pay only to Distomo municipal 75 000 000 E
the supreme in Florence (Φλωρεντια).

that is old 65 years case,
but from 2000 on courts,

the case starts from a John Stamoylis Ιωαννης Σταμουλης case of Greek victims against Nazi,
today the act is closed only for distomo Municipal,
According the result of The Trial, Distomo Municipal, and the people of Distomo can anytime they want move in confiscation of property of German Public in the lands of Greece Italy.
The above according the Paris Treaty after WW2.

remind you that is only the Distomo case, the whole victim restitution is still under debate, from 50 000 000 000 E to 126 000 000 000 E
cases Like Kalavryta kaisariani and smaller like my preferacture's Tachnista and Melea are not on justice yet.

for every one wants to know

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distomo_massacre

After that Greece is ready to Den Haag, while is preparing a court against other neighbor countries that supported Axis with troops. and kill Greeks in Greek territory,
Until today these people can ask from Italy or Greece to prevent in confiscation, while after Den Haag they can even force Germany to confiscate in German land,

Seems like WW2 and the Greek-German war is not ended, or restart after the latest insults. :thinking:

iapetoc
06-06-11, 21:43
and the debate still goes on among Greece and Germany.

ITALY TODAY,

the supreme court of Italy has decided that Germany must pay only to Distomo municipal 75 000 000 E
the supreme in Florence (Φλωρεντια).

that is old 65 years case,
but from 2000 on courts,

the case starts from a John Stamoylis Ιωαννης Σταμουλης case of Greek victims against Nazi,
today the act is closed only for distomo Municipal,
According the result of The Trial, Distomo Municipal, and the people of Distomo can anytime they want move in confiscation of property of German Public in the lands of Greece Italy.
The above according the Paris Treaty after WW2.

remind you that is only the Distomo case, the whole victim restitution is still under debate, from 50 000 000 000 E to 126 000 000 000 E
cases Like Kalavryta, kaisariani, Viannos(Crete) and smaller like my preferacture's Tachnista and Melea are not on justice yet.

for every one wants to know

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Distomo_massacre

After that Greece is ready to Den Haag, while is preparing a court against other neighbor countries that supported Axis with troops. and kill Greeks in Greek territory,
Until today these people can ask from Italy or Greece to prevent in confiscation, while after Den Haag they can even force Germany to confiscate in German land,

Seems like WW2 and the Greek-German war is not ended, or restart after the latest insults. :thinking:


4865

Seems like soon Greece will be one like in 1940, and not divided like in 1945 or 1967.

let the Greeks sleep and they sleep, and you will rule them
Put a spell and Greeks will divide and fight among them,
Insult Greeks, then face them all. :grin:

LeBrok
07-06-11, 05:14
Au contraire mon capitan. It actually looks like Greeks were sleeping for couple of decades and just woke up. They just woke up, looked around and started shouting:
"Who did this mess in my country!. Must be the Germans, or Macedonians, maybe Turks or other easterners, obviously USA with CIA, bankers and Jews. Who the heck did this? Surely it weren't us. We were... sleeping."

Did Greeks protested 20 or 10 years ago when deficit was rampant and debt was starting to pile up? Where were the Greeks back then to see the signs of coming gloom and doom? I suspect they were sleeping, otherwise they would have noticed the signs, right?

If you say again, that Greeks were duped, cheated, manipulated. Then I say again, rethink your democracy, because obviously, people - Greeks in this case, are not able to make good choices if it comes to politics or economy.
Don't concentrate on Germans or EU, concentrate on Greece.

I ask again, what is your solution for Greece? We know how you feel and thousands protesting, but what are you proposing for Greece, what solution?
Are you going to follow Portugal with center-right new government and tightening the belt? Looks like Portugal doesn't want to protest, they get beck to work fixing Portugal. Your prediction that protests will spread through Europe is falling apart.

edao
07-06-11, 21:09
"A year after the international rescue plan was implemented, Greece’s economy shows no signs of recovery. A disillusioned population can see no light at the end of the tunnel. We gauge the feeling in Athens, this week in Reporter."

watch video (http://www.euronews.net/2011/05/27/greece-drowning-by-numbers/)

iapetoc
07-06-11, 23:23
Au contraire mon capitan. It actually looks like Greeks were sleeping for couple of decades and just woke up. They just woke up, looked around and started shouting:
"Who did this mess in my country!. Must be the Germans, or Macedonians, maybe Turks or other easterners, obviously USA with CIA, bankers and Jews. Who the heck did this? Surely it weren't us. We were... sleeping."

Did Greeks protested 20 or 10 years ago when deficit was rampant and debt was starting to pile up? Where were the Greeks back then to see the signs of coming gloom and doom? I suspect they were sleeping, otherwise they would have noticed the signs, right?

If you say again, that Greeks were duped, cheated, manipulated. Then I say again, rethink your democracy, because obviously, people - Greeks in this case, are not able to make good choices if it comes to politics or economy.
Don't concentrate on Germans or EU, concentrate on Greece.

I ask again, what is your solution for Greece? We know how you feel and thousands protesting, but what are you proposing for Greece, what solution?
Are you going to follow Portugal with center-right new government and tightening the belt? Looks like Portugal doesn't want to protest, they get beck to work fixing Portugal. Your prediction that protests will spread through Europe is falling apart.



Well Lebrok for time in this forum we have a 50% agree.

if you read my above post #59 you see that Greeks do not want to be insulted,

Now about the spread of Revolutin I Found that map,

http://www.thetechnoant.info/campmap/

BUT INDEED IS SPWEADING THE IDEA.
Spain Greece in major, Italy has while some smaller protests are in France UK Ireland Portugal etc
If I find I will post it,
in Athens the gothered wher 80 000 according Reuters and 200 000 according others, (!!!)
we will see.


In Greece people are afraid 5 phalanx.

ibn case you that Post i would like to see posts #17 just to see behind, conspiracies and 'paranoia' that I have been told,

these are just few of late but in Greek language,

http://news247.gr/oikonomia/oikonomika/apovash_norvhgwn_gia_petrelaio_sthn_ellada.845799. html

http://news247.gr/oikonomia/prosdokies_gia_esoda_disekatommyriwn_apo_to_petrel aio.866586.html

http://news247.gr/oikonomia/petrelaio_ionio_krhth.1099356.html


well the story goes,

Albania in south in area P. Maritsa has oil, Ruusians found it in 1954,
When I was in Univeristy I had done some NATO researches near there as an engineer,
But in Hydrology and energy plants, (the doctor's case)

The whole oil is from Italy sea to Croatia, Monte Negro, Albania Greece,

well lets see, the corfu oil is estimeted more than 15 Billion E
the companies
Statoil
PGS
TGS

Norwegian Rune Henricksen (whatever is written) and Greek minister Maniatis, are about to sign the treaty.
source magazine Capital.

In 17 june this year an international search and propose on how drill will be by Greek minister,
for first is the oil of the adriatic zone, that starts from Dalmatia and ends Greece and also passes east of Italy,

Second the cretan Gas and oil,
a new plan that connects Revinthousa island with Crete via marine, North Greece that connects with South Stream (and perhaps Nabuco???) is in first plan,

the rest will be driil only after Greece Turkey agreement cause there is a casus beli by both.

All in magazine Capital.

well next time try to call me 'paranoid' some,
the whole case is setup before,what is the problem
Greek constitution, parag 120
NOBODY HAS THE RIGHT TO SELL GREEK STATE LAND,
not even the parliament,
the problem is that who is above EU Laws or Greek constitution,

how the story goes, Greek corrupt politicians, money vultures attack, despaired Greeks sell,


Lebrok yes Greek are in situation of sleep with one eye open now,
they have not awake yet,
the more the insult by Angela the more we wake, (at least those who still sleep)

But the main problem will not be solved, still Greek economy needs a flexible and not so high Euro,
while Germany wants strong,

the last post in magazines show that Indeed Greece is going to Her own currency Drachma,

if That is possible then surely opens road that other countries can in time move from Euro,

the case is still uncertain to be sure,
Gov in Greece promises a Referendum (!!!!!! 50 years no one done,) if go or not according IMF and EuroGROUP orders,

we 'll see,

now about Personally,
I Believe that Greece needs first a cleaning (corrupt politicians etc)
Then constitution change, so to put anoteher elected (like a president) to check the legal and numbers of state, (2 kings system, 2 major elected that check each other)
and then to decide Euro or Drachma.


I only hope they don't do East mediterrean like N Orleans LU
with accidents and polution

Carlitos
09-06-11, 03:51
Achievements of the "indignant"in Greece featured in the foreign press, ignored by the press in Spain. The press in Spain is at the power, the struggle continues.

iapetoc
09-06-11, 12:32
Είμαι αγανακτισμένος τελικά, γιατί ο Πρωθυπουργός της χώρας μου πρόσφατα δήλωσε:
“όσοι διαδηλώνουν στις πλατείες απευθύνονται σε Εθνικά συστήματα δημοκρατίας, τα οποία
είναι αδύνατα και αιχμάλωτα μιας παγκόσμιας εξουσίας και απαιτείται μια δημοκρατική και ενημερωμένη παγκόσμια κυβέρνηση”.

THAT IS WHAT ANSWER HAS GIVEN HE PRESIDENT OF GLOBAL SOCIALIST PARTIES AND PRIME MINISTER OF GREECE

"The ones who protest in squares are Addressed to National system of Democracies, which are weak, and prisoners of a global power (order) and there is a demand for a democratic and well informed Global Government


!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

in case i search for science fiction and I am paranoid,
I don't comment,

I leave you all to think what the president of global Socialist parties union, and not the Greek prime minister said,

I believe you can think.

edao
09-06-11, 13:05
Iapetoc, have you considered leaving Greece? You seem very angry with the situation in your country.

iapetoc
09-06-11, 13:31
Iapetoc, have you considered leaving Greece? You seem very angry with the situation in your country.


No Edao I am old enough to start a new life, and young enough to resist. :grin:

why do you have any proposal? Any interesting place?

Yes I am angry for years now, you just find my psychology. :angry:
I had the chance to go to Dubai younger, maybe I was mistaken that did not, but I have to fulfill my obligation to parents, (Greek tradition of the 1rst male).

but many Greeks are moving,
the last 10 years 1 000 000 Greeks moved abroad,
most of them scientists and not workers,

iapetoc
09-06-11, 16:38
and the funny is that

http://www.sabah.com.tr/Ekonomi/2011/06/09/12-yunan-adasi-satisa-cikti


:laughing: :laughing:

Real estates companies in Turkey are selling Greek Islands,

Anton, Bear's den
09-06-11, 20:18
I think crisis time is perfect for reforming


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_HPb46aK7hM

iapetoc
10-06-11, 07:32
HAHAHAHAHAAH

the Kannelos (cinnamon color)
the rioting dog of Athens,

there was another one the Chico in Thessaloniki when I was working there, before at 2004,
it was famous cause at night time it followed women until their houses, and leave none to touch them, if a man was near the woman that Chico protect, he barked and was ready to attack, he lived inside University campus and was fed by students. I don't know where is now, But it was famous.

seems like in Greece we grew famous Riot Dogs, Legends,

that Dog is the Trade mark in every protest, in Athens, it is a Legend.


well most of the video protest are political or from parties, and some of them I don't share,
if you read my previous posts, you will understand why.


Read my post #5 in same thread about the mans with mask.
5th phalanx

iapetoc
10-06-11, 17:01
"A year after the international rescue plan was implemented, Greece’s economy shows no signs of recovery. A disillusioned population can see no light at the end of the tunnel. We gauge the feeling in Athens, this week in Reporter."

watch video (http://www.euronews.net/2011/05/27/greece-drowning-by-numbers/)


yes and how you expect to recover,
I read a newspaper today.

350 000 houses are on sail.
prices are lower than the the estimation by state Taxis (gov system of taxation)
yet no one buys, why the tax if you buy a house is so high that does not worth it,

in numbers example,
a house is estimeted by taxis to 200 000 E
owner sells it for 100 000
buyer must pay tax for 200 000 E
means 40 000 E tax with old taxes, and 80 000 with the new taxation (memorandum 2) if pass the parliament.

!!!!!!!!

simply IMF and Troika they don't want to gather money, they want to struggle Greek market.

the colleague in the video is just mentioning the situation in 2002 and before. and is not true,

cause of ποθεν εσχες (where you found).
from 1996-8 you could not sold house and buy a new land to build cause Taxis system checked,
that was before 2002 hard 2004.

today I still have 2 houses left from the company I sell 50% of taxis estimation and no one is buying.
simply the girl is lying or talks about huge corporations
or living in another area,
where the hell happens that, I will run there to build.

middle class people are being destroyed in Greece.

how had happened

Bank gave house loans with enough interest,
Bank supported corporations to build houses,
Houses have been build in where ever,
houses were sold high especially in Athens,
people could not afford the loan,
so Bank took houses back, and earn triple,
1 from taking back houses, or from the loans
2 from the earn of construction companies
3 from the shares of the construction companies she owned,

I was lucky cause I took a loan in 1996 with 14% interest.
But I sell quickly and manage to survive,
I retired in 2007 when I realize that real estates are a balloon case.
today I work in the fields paying insurance and wait to die cause nobody lives to take a retirement.

iapetoc
10-06-11, 17:47
Now for the record and for the Indignant Greeks.

Just see the photo.

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-4HHKBS85LtY/TeNx8eQqv_I/AAAAAAAABM8/5S7Ng8Ue760/s1600/251598_2111302660635_1187682761_32622584_7226562_n .jpg



It is before elections,
the today gov people that promise not to sale

Simply before elections people were told, Greece is not for sale,
After the elections All for sell.

In what real democracy the elected is Free to do whatever he likes and not stick to his program that he promise?

Simply is that the real Democracy we all are proud and support?
Can we make it better?

these people were elected not to sale. and they sell.

why don't they sell their mothers, instead of making me to sell my self???

iapetoc
10-06-11, 23:37
well just think Greek churches become muslim temples

the imagination belong to a Netherlands magazine

De Pers

just look
4879


well Just a thank you guys, you just make some of us more awaken,

the answer is old

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

Reinaert
11-06-11, 00:41
Well, De Pers is a conservative shouting news medium. They always put more salt in whatever wound.

Canek
11-06-11, 13:29
the same people playing games with Greece were the ones who sent one of the richest nations in america, Argentina, into african lifestyle-levels.

I suggest you all to watch the film 'Inside Job', you'll see clearly the world is dominated by a gang of SCUM. There's NO DEMOCRACY in most part of this world, specially in what USA calls free-world with arrogance. They make people believe they are free to choose their goverment and how to manage their country, but it's all a theatre.


well just think Greek churches become muslim temples

the imagination belong to a Netherlands magazine

De Pers

just look
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=4879&stc=1


well Just a thank you guys, you just make some of us more awaken,

the answer is old

ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΕ

typical dutch anti-muslim fascist media.

Elias2
13-06-11, 15:55
There are alot of negative people on this forum. Greece is going through a hard time right now, but only greeks can rescue themselves from this mess with the help of others. Maybe its time to stop playing the blame game and start fixing the problems:

- over sized public sector
- tax evasion
- enept bureaucracy
- taxes to large

Unfortunetly these should of been fixed when the greek economy was doing well, now its going to be even more hard and painful.

iapetoc
14-06-11, 01:20
There are alot of negative people on this forum. Greece is going through a hard time right now, but only greeks can rescue themselves from this mess with the help of others. Maybe its time to stop playing the blame game and start fixing the problems:

- over sized public sector
- tax evasion
- enept bureaucracy
- taxes to large

Unfortunetly these should of been fixed when the greek economy was doing well, now its going to be even more hard and painful.


Elias the measure do not Help Greek economy,
in fact they destroy Greek market,

1) oversized Greek public sector, hmm I agree in some parts,
cause in Greece we have nurse, who do only office work, while we have many public workers in some areas there is a luck in others,
so I agree with you in % of fire and relocation to other subject.
and some cut in sallaries,

2) yes why to pay?
an example is the corporation that owns the airport Venizelos,
they have to pay 500 000 000 E in Taxes, and they don't pay!!!!!!!!!
in fact they are about to sale the airport !!!!! and discuss about pay the half, same with Voskopoulos,
so if you have 5 E in Greece you go to prison,
if you have pay millions you pay the half!!!!!!!!!!

3) yes bureaucracy is problem cause it does not give profit,
for example many are spend in pappers and people work just to give pappers, but no body check them,
for example tax office is so slow that finds if finds evasion after 5 years, yet more hundrends of thousnds work.

4) indeed that makes the problem Bigger,

in the market the last days I see black market with standard products (new and conserved and typed) from other coountries in half prices,

it is funny but Greeks go to Bulgaria fill their reservoirs, and buy also 4-5 tins of 20 lt benzin !!!!!!!!!!!!
that is a 100 E profit, that is 15-20% of the month sallary.

old man who retired buy Albanian cigarettes just in 40% of the price!!!!!!!!!!!
the more the tax large, the more black market!!!!!!!1
that is the IMF and Troika knowledge!!!!!!!!!

tomorrow I will write a full post with Numbers,

Elias2
14-06-11, 01:47
Would you be in favor of privatizing health care iatepoc? maybe other services that just build up debt in greece? Less public services the less taxes the government needs to have, the more money the average greek can have in their pocket. These austarity measures is going to kill greece for the next 10 years, maybe it would be better just to default and start over, though I don't think germany or america will let greece default.

iapetoc
14-06-11, 05:40
Would you be in favor of privatizing health care iatepoc? maybe other services that just build up debt in greece? Less public services the less taxes the government needs to have, the more money the average greek can have in their pocket. These austarity measures is going to kill greece for the next 10 years, maybe it would be better just to default and start over, though I don't think germany or america will let greece default.

the problem is the privatizing, the problem is the syndicates that are party members,

the wrong is that the party that makes gov, does not have any to control him,
just think how many party members has the 2 big,

just think that president is always a party member,
just consider what Tsoukatos said,
so there is no judge, no president no any other authority to control gov,
so for 4 years they do whatever!!!! and just send their members to committees and take x5 - x15 the money that a worker get for just a few hours the month,
just think that the old gov had >10 000 party members in such committees, and today even with crisis has more than 3 000,
they are not public workers, they are party members!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Greece first need change of constitution,

just think the law about the responsibility of ministers,
from 1980 so many scandals, so many thieves, so many loss of public money, and what?
no one went to prison,
why cause it is like the mafia of 300, read my previous posts,

for more tthan 5 years we here about the program kallikratis, and .... no work, still another program, waste money,

now about privatizing etc,
yeah sure, I know the case, I don't want to name, just think that a birth in university hospital costs about few thound E, and in a private well known in North Greece cost ten of thousands,

simply a party member that is always head-manager of a hospital make some strange buys and bargain, which after 2-5 years came to publicity, but never goes to prison, cause it is elected,
want numbers? area of patras, the insurance with the hospital gave 75 000 wheel chairs to person that needed !!!!
while in thessaloniki only half with x8 population, after 3 years we learn that the head manager of the hospital had shares in the company that produces the chairs, who went to prison????

to understand more,
island Ikaria, 1 doctor, party member, All party members were blind with papper signed by him, all took a 'help' from state,
in an island of a few thousand there were 192 blind people!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
One of them was the Taxi driver!!!!!!!
blind taxi driver!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
until they realize the state, passed years change gov, but no one in prison, cause party members!!!

in Greece if you steal a bread they arrest you and judge you and send you prison,
if you still the beakers factory then you are a gentleman,

now do you understand why Greeks do not want to pay taxes??????

just think, the post #76, why alwways poor and middle have to pay???
when a thieve politician will go to prison????

what kind of Democracy is that?????

first we must change constitution,
then we must pass politician from Γουδι
and then the rest.

iapetoc
15-06-11, 12:22
well my fear are correct, the most valuable day protest,
the same time prime minister meats president,
the same time more than 300 000 are protesting 5th phalanx strikes,

5th phalanx is the organised fake protesters, (police mans, secret antiterrorist etc)
they just were helmets, and provoke police with molotov, so to force them strike,
tons of chemicals in syntagma square,

protesters are in middle of police and 5th phalanx,
another peacefull protestion is just over.

you may have pictures in some greek channels like star.gr.

iapetoc
15-06-11, 16:30
well after 23 days of protest indignant greeks retreat by 5th phalanx.

the estimation is about 1 000 000 persons were in Athens, according

http://www.star.gr/ellada_kosmos video details of greek channel.

how that people retreat? 5th phalanx

5th phalanx is an old plan of operation Gladio,

operation gladio had 3 plans in order to provide stability against people revolt,
1 5th phalanx destroy demonstrations by divide them to left and right.
2 yellow fleece create a stability gov by acceptable persons and from all parties
3 red fleece, create para-military teams of action.



now about 5th phalanx,

trade mark is the attack the protesters by other protesters,
that what happened today,

in the bellow video you can the indignant Greeks who want to protest,
as you see special police forces pass through them but nothing happens,


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjb5gb_yyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyy_news


in other areas 4 preferucture were peacefull ocuupied and stoped work for some hours.

http://www.star.gr/ellada_kosmos/95961/

in fact in Volos town indignant Greeks kept 'hostage' (no work, no entrance the major of the city, with out a scrutc, but a few 'nice words'


now connection of 5th phalanx with police,

http://www.ant1online.gr/Society/General/Pages/20116/1cc540f7-4b73-43ed-9da3-bf2f5ca028e2.aspx


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjbb2t_asfalites-me-maderia-15-june-2011_news#from=embed



the voice and the choice of 1 000 000 people, is just nothing to some,
500 secret police and military can just make the difference
so the voice of 500 is stronger than the 1 000 000 !!!!!!!
???? democracy!!!!!


before, and after


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQ4u7pOX3gw&feature=player_embedded


that means that Greek is still under 'supervisors'
a kind of yellow fleece is on the road,
the last time was in early 90's
and at 1974,
while the gladio yellow fleece forced Greece to make a revolt against Makarios in Cyprus,

Still democracy in the land that was born DOES NOT EXIST,
no elections, No referendum, just the same policy with another person's, just NO Democracy but the same politicians create a trust. :useless: :useless: :useless: so not the people's choice can be heard.



in this site pic you can see the 'helmet protesters' attack the indignant.


http://www.real.gr/DefaultArthro.aspx?page=arthro&id=74162&catID=3

iapetoc
28-06-11, 21:30
What Democracy??


In Democracy there are REFERENDUM

and not the 151 vs 149 pass

insted of Going to Referendum

Oli and Stan (fat and thin old comedians)

4942

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Laurel_%26_Hardy_in_Flying_Deuces_1_edited.pn g
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/Laurel_%26_Hardy_in_Flying_Deuces_1_edited.png

are about to pass such a memorandum by 151 -149 means by 1/4 of Greek people,

while outside the area is like that


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjl06n_yyyyyyyy-yyyyyyyyy-3_news#from=embed



Just think that electric corporation that in the record of 2004 was estimated from 36-40 000 000 000 E
is about to sold 12-16 000 000 000 E

I said in another post Greeks are a non Brothers nation, not a stupid nation,

iapetoc
29-06-11, 10:27
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjlgou_yyyyyyyyyyyyy-yyyyyyyyyyy_news#from=embed


well that is touching moment.

the praitorians (police) and greek protesters are both search the fingers of the the poor police man,
a grenade (sound and light) accident and 1 policeman who hold it lost his fingers,
at least 20 minutes peace to search for it,
that face is the real face of democracy,
and not the 5 phallanx rioteers who just provoke and want to kill everybody (police and protesters)


cu later quys, I am going thessaloniki with my kids.
to perfom my Democratic right of protest.

iapetoc
29-06-11, 22:19
ok guys I am back,

thank god I did meat any man with masks, cause they are only in Athens,

if someone want to see live the riots
just click

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/streaming-video-syntagma-square-first-day-greek-general-strike

the pitty is that 500 cheap medicine care that outrageus-indignad people build with tents, it is destroyed.

iapetoc
29-06-11, 22:28
The secret role of police in riots, who are these that beat protesters??

Watch carefully video, min 1:30


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjlt7w_yyyyyyyyyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyy_news#from=embed



After the case of Sharin Gas in Japan metro all chemical are forbiden all over the world in Metro,



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjlv28_yyyyyy-yyy-yyyyy_news#from=embed



I wonder is that the Face of Democracy
Both In greece and Eu?

I believe EU is becoming a Ablolute System, an oligarchy system,


IF EUROPEANS WERE DEMOCRATIC THEY WOULD ASK A REFERENDUM.

IN FACT THEY ASK THE LIMIT VOTE< AND THEY AGREE TO ACTIONS LIKE THAT!!!!!!!

I JUST WANT YOU TO WONDER AFTER 35 DAYS WITH A NUMBER THAT REAChED MORE THAN 1,500 000 Protesters some days WHY EUROPE DID NOT ASK FOR REFERENDUM???????????????????

SIMPLY CAUSE EUROPEAN UNION DAY BY DAY IS BECOMING a REICH.

IF EUROPEAN POLITICIAN WERE DEMOCRATIC THEY WOULD ASK FROM GREEKS REFERENDUM,

AND THEY DID NOT ALLOW THAT IN EU OF 2012.


Greek Goverment is prepairing a referendum in september for many questions, about 25,

BUT IN THE CASE OF MOMERANTUM 2 THEY LISTEN TO 'HIS MASTER VOICE' AS ALWAYS DO FROM 1978 the start of Greek depth

If that is not a parliament dictatorship then what? Democracy?

Seems like THE HOLY SAVORS FROM EUROPE ARE NOT DEMOCRATIC ALSO, SINCE THEY ALLOW THAT ΑΓΟΣ.


My question is how many these politicians earn by vote yes? and how much above democracy is the bankers.

well that may not is outside your door now, but maybe in 1 day will come,

I don't want you to support anything,
I simply want you to realize the difference about Democracy, and parliamental democracy with no referendum,

it is not POWER TO PEOPLE,
but POWER TO THE RICH BANKERS.


DEMOCRACY = REFERENDUM + OSTRACISM


Just remember Greece enters EU, enter maashtrich (whatever written) enter dublin enter Ezone anter memorantum 1, memorantum 2 with not a single referendum,

iapetoc
30-06-11, 06:14
The area is Monasteraki, PLaka,
an area where paople eat, full of tavernes,
Half of the people there are Tourist

WHY?


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjlx65_yyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyy-yyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyyyyy_news#from=embed&start=98


IF THAT IS NOT LIKE POLYTACHNEIO THEN WHAT?

Simply the ones that were in polytechneio in 1973
are today in parliament, the ones who revo;t for democracy today are assasinate her,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zIbU84rQRo

edao
30-06-11, 09:48
I appreciate things are very tough in Greece right now but if Greece defaults now on its debt black hole it will send a shock wave through the financial system making the recent trouble seem like a walk in the park.

Do you want the rest of Europe to pay for Greece's mismanagement? Your government took the money and spent it, now the people want the rest of Europe to write its debts off, money for free?

On the news here the reporter mentioned that the retirement age for alot of people in Greece is 50 is this true, and that part of the austerity package is for it to be raised to 65?

iapetoc
30-06-11, 10:47
I appreciate things are very tough in Greece right now but if Greece defaults now on its debt black hole it will send a shock wave through the financial system making the recent trouble seem like a walk in the park.

Do you want the rest of Europe to pay for Greece's mismanagement? Your government took the money and spent it, now the people want the rest of Europe to write its debts off, money for free?

On the news here the reporter mentioned that the retirement age for alot of people in Greece is 50 is this true, and that part of the austerity package is for it to be raised to 65?


it was 50 in army, police forces, even at 44 some could get retirement,

Just look the story,

1) 1rst measurements by Greek goverment,
retire at 65 etc,
2) 2nd measures tobaco etc taxes,

3) memorantum 1 IMF and troika FAILURE

4) Memorantum 2 yesterday,

Greeks accepted all until No 3
they want accept any more, why? cause its a hoax,

Now to understand, since you know about economics,

The memorantum 1 was a failure it was +5+5= -5 I wrote above,

the memorantum 2 will be a disaster in Greek society and greek market and production,

what does memorantum2 do?

memorantum 1 roll the depth in time, it just gain time,
memorantum 2 is rolling depth to central europe and eurozone,
memorantum 2 is just moving depth from Greece to stronger economies of europe,

it is like we save greek economy, in order to save Euro,

the depth of Greece is now Depth of ECB after memorantum2 understand it,

the wise quys who told you half truth they will not tell you that in order to save greece all europeans will pay a sum,
that is what memorandum2 does,
in fact that is killing greece, why? cause the tax is so high that the last greek industry Tourism is going to grave,

the tax in a refreshment reach high, that means a cola drink will cost 2,5 E at a full touristic place,
which tourist will come back to Greece? when in another country cost 1 E,


on the other hand an apaxiosis of Greek depth would push Euro to 2:1 against dollar

search what is behind and why Europe pushed Greeks to memorantum2 without the will of Greeks,

iapetoc
30-06-11, 20:08
these 2 videos is the answer to all those who are happy,

instead of απαξιωσις and σεισαχθεια word very well known in economists

Europe decided to show her real face, using Greek police,

when the goverment is electeed by about 1800 000 000 people,
and yesterday in Greece 1800 000 000 protest means NO democracy,
instead of a peacefull referendum, they decide to use their power in the parliament,
the results that are shown in videos show exactly the modern democracy,

1rst case is the police, I take orders from elected so I use what ever I want,
why you protest? get ...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-QAhMJtUI0&feature=player_embedded



2nd case is why you are Open? why you look after your store? we want to break it down and we will where you are inside or not.

police throwing grenades at cafes


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=4SiA2vLn_Tw


Police enter a green store and beats the owner for he was open,


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xjmaup_epithesi-se-manaviko_news#from=embed


3) police invades at the hospital camp of indignant

watch the tones of chemicals,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=kFRRmU2vTjw


from 1973 no referendum,

the last hope of Greece was the summer tourism,
40% of country income is after tourism,
and while in all greece not a nose opened (bleed) in athens the police stance just destroy image,

behind the scene?
the last industry of Greece is under war,

All european politician are satisfied, why not?
they gain 2 things,
1) they saved the bankers earn instead
2) they manage to de-industrialize more Greece,
3) they make a big parade showing power and iron will in Eu citizens
4) they started to find methods on how to prevail the indignants of Europe,

Free spirit always existed in Greeks, we will see in future, the latest news give Goldan sachs an Uberalles in both USA and EU,
I hope that European politicains we 'll be right and I will be wrong,
but in the other case that if I am correct then ???

Antigone
01-07-11, 06:54
The free spirited protesters of Athens all went home. Those big brave idiots (with their faces covered) on the streets over the last 3 days are the same handful who disrupt every protest, they are government stooges who are sent to discredit any protest and distract the public from what is going on in the parliament. And it worked again, all the media has concentrated on is broken windows, burning cars and tear gas whilst the country is sold down the toilet.

The idiots will even take baseball bats to student meetings at universities, particularly the Polytechneio, to frighten the students into not protesting. As you know, the police aren't allowed on campus so the "pets" are sent instead.

iapetoc
02-07-11, 13:06
the aftermath,

only 990 000 E coast the chemicals that were used in 48 hours in Greece!!!!! (very cheap!!!)

the total estimation of the hot 48 hours is about 2 500 000 E with the food, water ets of police,
without the extra money that they take due to 48 hours work
unknown yet is the secret sums that police spend,

http://tvxs.gr/news/%CE%B5%CE%BB%CE%BB%CE%AC%CE%B4%CE%B1/900000-%CE%B5%CF%85%CF%81%CF%8E-%CE%B3%CE%B9%CE%B1-%CF%87%CE%B7%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BA%CE%AC-%CE%BA%CE%B1%CE%B9-%CE%B8%CE%B5%CF%89%CF%81%CE%AF%CE%B5%CF%82-%CE%B5%CE%B9%CF%83%CE%B2%CE%BF%CE%BB%CE%AE%CF%82-%CF%83%CF%84%CE%B7-%CE%B2%CE%BF%CF%85%CE%BB%CE%AE-%CE%B1%CF%80%CF%8C-%CF%84%CE%BF-%CF%87-%CF%80%CE%B1%CF%80%CE%BF%CF%85%CF%84%CF%83%CE%AE


the strange is that in a interview minister spoke about a secret plan of someones to enter parliament and create chaos,
but even today no identity of the plan masters are unknown !!!!!! (are we idiots?)

Although I don't trust gallop and exit poll cause I believe that 'cook' the results, at even 25-30%
the gallop about indignand Greeks show that the numbers are huge, bigger than the % of 1 of the 2 parties,

and the idea of indignand is not a fashion and not passed yet,

http://www.real.gr/DefaultArthro.aspx?page=arthro&id=76483&catID=78


3 of the 10 demands is
Details and information about the truth of the depth and not semi infos
Punishement all who are responsible
stop every gov, money spend, (except public care like hospitals)

Canek
02-07-11, 14:50
thoughs times for the greek people... i hope you don't end like argentina (another great country).

good luck to you guys.

i hope this makes europeans understand that there is not 1st world, not 3rd world... we are all the same.

Latin America is not inferior to Europe we share many same problems...

Antigone
02-07-11, 15:31
Latin America is definitely not inferior to anyone Canek, I don't understand how you have the idea that Europeans think that it is. It certainly isn't what people in eastern Europe think about SA anyway, I can't answer for western Europe but I've never heard anyone speak in a disparaging way about the peoples of your continent. There are many Greek families in South America (Chile in particular) who have regular contact with their families in Greece so quite a lot is known about Latin America here.

1st, 2nd or 3rd world is an outdated concept from the 1970/80s, and typical of the silly thinking of that time. But, thankfully, it is not really used anymore, I haven't heard it used in a long time in fact.

Canek
03-07-11, 15:01
yes of course, european migrants are more humility.

but europeans in general have an superioty complex.. they look at us as inferior.

Gavroche
03-07-11, 15:57
yes of course, european migrants are more humility.

but europeans in general have an superioty complex.. they look at us as inferiorWhen you say something like that, you have to argue!!!

Antigone
03-07-11, 18:33
That is as silly as saying all Europeans have blonde hair Canek. No-one has the ability to make anyone feel inferior, you need to look at yourself to find the reason for your insecurity. Rather than blaming others.

iapetoc
03-07-11, 19:25
http://news247.gr/oikonomia/article1168108.ece/BINARY/original/nisia.jpg

cannadian real estate selling Greek islands


the answer is known Μολων λαβε τοις των Ελληνων
come and get it.

iapetoc
03-07-11, 19:40
http://news247.gr/kosmos/news/article1168163.ece/BINARY/original/giounker.jpg


Tomorrow a wide interview of Giunger (sorry however is written) in a magazine of german owners

until now the man is telling with clear tongue the future,

1 truth is that

Ο πρωθυπουργός του Λουξεμβούργου επισημαίνει ότι η Ελλάδα επί σειρά ετών ωφελήθηκε από το ευρώ.
"Με δική της υπαιτιότητα ορισμένα πράγματα ξέφυγαν. Και τώρα που πρέπει να τα επαναφέρει με ενωμένες δυνάμεις σε τάξη, πρέπει οι Έλληνες να αντιληφθούν ότι απαιτείται μια συλλογική απάντηση"

it was a fault of Greece that thing had gone wild, lose(economical)
Greece must gather back,

ok truth

2
κυριαρχία των Ελλήνων θα περιοριστεί δραστικά" ενώ παράλληλα αναγγέλλει αποστολή ειδημόνων από την Ευρωζώνη, οι οποίοι θα συνδράμουν στην εφαρμογή του προγράμματος μεταρρυθμίσεων.

domination of Greeks will be shorted dramatically, while EU experts will come to save greece,

ok truth


my questions

1 since dominations of Greeks will be shorted will the experts of Europe HANG THE THIEVES?????????
and fight corruption?

2 do the experts come to help Greece or just to sell Greece and the islands to their friends?
will fight corruption, or they came to spring corruption to high and sunk more Greeks as their friends the politicians did before them??

I am just asking since all the desiccion about EU in greece were after a parliamental and not a people's vote,
means corruption should from EU who corrupted Greek politician and finally they manage to sell Greece,

Day by day it is more obvious what and why the ECB gave secret loans to Germany, and why forced greece to goldman sachs,

well future is near we will see.

iapetoc
10-07-11, 05:22
well i have to enter some new data in thread,

I will put only funny, cause after all that, guess someone needs it,

the first picture is after a greek vocabulary metaphora,
the police man os order is named organ of taxis = peace instrument
the drum is musical organ
so policeman is drum :grin:

the photo

http://news247.gr/health/Media-Internet/article1179807.ece/BINARY/original/organo1.jpg


watch people imagination

http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Image15.jpg

USE THE FORCE LUKE


http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/00-moon1.jpg

HELLO HUSTON WE HAVE A GREEK PROBLEM



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/55-tennis.jpg

No comment



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/org-vs-chuck.jpg


Organo Vs Chuck



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/400.jpg

No Comment



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/001.jpg

Nothing stands infront organo



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/004.jpg

Organo wins both white and black



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/005.jpg

Organo dancing



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/8zidane.jpg


New model, The Zidane organo



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/0hp.jpg

No comment



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Image24.jpg

Organo goes Olympic games



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Image25.jpg

Smurf organ


http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/34.jpg


... AND ORGANO CREATED GOD ....



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/knights-jousting.jpg


Champion Organo



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/organo1.jpg


Orgamon the new pokemon



http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/organo4.jpg

karate kid vs Organo kid


http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/organo10.jpg

Football organo


http://freddos.sport24.gr/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/organo15.jpg


Darling I shrunk Organo


Hope some of you had a smile in difficult times,

Canek
13-07-11, 19:10
When you say something like that, you have to argue!!!

ask the spaniards... they believe they are superior to latin americans.

iapetoc
29-07-11, 00:52
at the end of 2012 the Maya civilization calendar ends,

I don't know if it is a science fiction story, a possible mathematical end, or just a devil's coincidence,

in autumn soon back to streets, probably the worst winter of crisis,
the stories of Greek and Global etc crisis are known

see all in autumn


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aE3R1BQrYCw&feature=player_embedded#at=441

Remember most of us live beside you, all we want is transparency in political system, same treatment and chances to all citizens, and the power to choose all laws and decisions,

We are not afraid of what will happened from our own decisions,
We are afraid what will happened to us with out our participation and decisions,

I am not afraid to face the fate I choose in my life,
I am afraid the fate that others choose for me


ρουφιανος rufianos means pimp narc underground snitch

Dedicated to the politicians who were at 1973 at Polytechneio revolt
against foreign rulers, and today they bring foreign rulers,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TVFpUcHioTU


fear and money turn people to lackeys

that story will not end in Greece, it will spread all over,

LeBrok
29-07-11, 02:59
Hey Iapetoc, did you take part of any of these manifestations, riots? Just curious.

Yetos
08-10-11, 00:55
At 15 October there is a date world wide to show our will for a better system, a real democracy,

away from old 'left and right' who are the same and all care their pockets and their Bank accounts,

a third voice who ask transparency, justice, in political and economical life of the world,

5247


if you are indignant, or you are pissed off with the dirty politicians and bankers, come and join us,

From South America Russia
from California to Africa,

Help your voice to be heard,

LeBrok
08-10-11, 02:31
Yetos, are you the same person as Iapetoc?

Yetos
10-10-11, 13:32
The case of Proton Bank


According with the minister of economics in Greece a new 'good' bank is on the way,

its name is New Proton Bank

but lets see the history,

the owner mister Layrentiadhs
creates a bank, gives loans to his own corporation with the people's deposit money,
Embezzlement and misapropiation of at least 51 millions E by the owner,

and the result?
an agreement with Goverment and a new 'good' bank on the way,

so nobody goes to trial or to jail
nobody pays the damage but the tax payers, etc etc,

So according the Ernst & Young who make assessment Greek goverment will pay-loose 863 millions of E just to save a Bank owner ass

considering that Greeks already pay huge Taxes, an extra 120 E to save a dead Bank just because had given a Loan to a political party (guess who)!!!!

some of twitter motos are

we save Proton Bank but not the state Railways who at least are usefull and can be 'healed'

do you know what is to an unemployment that we saved a Bank and a Bankers ass?

The bankrupt Greek government is providing guarantees for the bankrupt Greek bank Proton... nice!

SO Socialism means anarcho-capitalism, put Taxes to save a capitalist,

you open a bank you loan your shelf money, and then you put the state to pay the damage, clever,


my personal thoughts is the EU troika and the committee of Greek economy as also IMF supervisors did they agree?
cause if yes then we surely have a 'trust' game of covering many 'smart thieves', and both EU and Greek are an image of taxing poor people to save the rich bankers,

PS Occupy Wall Street :)

Yetos
26-10-11, 15:31
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlxyix_ayyyyyyyyyyy-yyyyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyyy-yyyy-yyyy-yyyyyyyy-yyyyyyyyyyyy-2_news#rel-page-1


today at Thessaloniki
cathedral's Day st Dimitrios


today is 99 years anniversary of Freedom of Makedonia from Turks and Slavs

seems like powder is on the way

5298

Greeks are feeling that 4rth Reich is upon them
majority swear that will sabotage all German investments until the money that Germany owns be paid,
and ask from Germany instead of taking money from poor people, go and ask them to the one who gave them,

minister like Mantelis who open said that took 10 000 000 E from German siemens to sign an expensive communication work for national com organization,

5299

or the Ferrostaal case etc like him who after a stupid is not going to be judged

5300

remember the last one had German passport and was married to a German,

so the ones who wants money go ask them from the Gestapo agents in Greece,

cause Greeks do not submit to those that are done, and maybe take the mountains once again like WW2

remember the first who took land from axis were Greeks, not Americans not British not Russians,

maybe History will repeat.

Yetos
28-10-11, 10:58
I think that is a non blood revolt today,

I will expand later with videos and photos,

it seems like Greeks second ΟΧΙ to Germans,


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlzi3e_yyyyyyyyy-yyyyyyyy_news?start=55#from=embed

it is the president of Democracy leaving the area of the parade,
unofficial rumors say that minister of defence ask from generals of police and army to use violence to dismiss the crowd,

remember that parade is memory of WW2 and the No ΟΧΙ that greeks said to axis,
Historically Greece is the first country that attack and took land from axis , while resist in 3 lines
the live Metaxa which hold much longer than line mazino (france)
in crete where axis paratroopers had the biggest casulaties,
and in resist which is considered 1 of the 3 strongest with Yugoslavia and russia
according population Greece had the biggest casualties of all per population



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlziqy_yyyyyyyy-yyyyyyy-yyyy-yyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyy_news#rel-page-under-1

the above is in Crete


common characteristic is the Yogurt,
you may call it the yogurt revolt
since the massive weapon of protesters is yogurt,



http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlzj0f_yyyyyyyy-yyyyyyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyyyyy_news#rel-page-under-1

the only one who parade are the sons of Makedonian struggle who happened to have the holy costumes as a heritage.
the ww2 heroes and the resistance of 1941-44
and the organizations of Greek specific cultures
the flags of the specific regiments and ships who fought in ww1 and ww2 in Makedonia
Besides they are the one who deserve it


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NAJqq54BtI&feature=player_embedded#!

thassaly punch in Goverment members,
seems like a new status will be in Greece,
nobody knows what, and future but one is sure
both big parties are not being in love by greeks, and maybe soon will see cases like lynch politians,

there is big possibility that all treaties the goverment sign might go boom
since they apply the willing of people,
even program Helios where germany thinks to spend money might go boom.


http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xlzkbl_yyyyyy-yyy-yyyyyyyy-yyyyyyyy_news#rel-page-under-1

Greek youth that took part in the parade raise black flags in order to express their dislike to those who are selling Greek land to France-German Axis,
min 0:37

the most funny is in facebook where exist a page on saving Greek by prime minister has only 486 like until yesterday,



http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1hP0k5omIHU#!

kalamata peloponese,

etc whole Greece

if this happened in ucraine or elsewhere media will say orange revolt or soft revolt etc

but from june 2011 until today nobody say yogurt revolt or greek revolt?

I really wonder why?

maybe some Europeans want to see Greeks to take guns,

or they trust their lackeys in greek goverments


http://tvxs.gr/sites/default/files/article/2011/43/74303g-florina.jpg

julia90
29-10-11, 00:25
Greeks have the same problem of southern italians, a lot of unnecessary statalized workers... private workers and enterprises don't have the power to sustain such heavy weight of statals, that are unpruductive.. the don't create money or value.....

people must understand this... statal work doesn't create economic value...

and those statal workers are the bread of socialized, leftist parties, because those workers are votes for them, because they protect them and they assume them.

people need to vote political parties that are in favour of liberalization ,capitalism and private work.

the statals and the burocracy are a heavy and dangerous weight

i think one of the main thing to change is the mentality... the mentality to work under the state.. and by doing this you need to start first with a revolution... throw out all the political class you had, that brought greece in this condition, and vote a new political class that doesn't assume unecessary statal workers.
i don't belive in the saves the old political class is doing, this class is your enemy, you can't accept it to cut all the wages now... those politician must be punished... they can't do now what they have must done 20-30 years ago, instead of assuming al those people.

Elias2
29-10-11, 05:00
Greeks have the same problem of southern italians, a lot of unnecessary statalized workers... private workers and enterprises don't have the power to sustain such heavy weight of statals, that are unpruductive.. the don't create money or value.....

people must understand this... statal work doesn't create economic value...

and those statal workers are the bread of socialized, leftist parties, because those workers are votes for them, because they protect them and they assume them.

people need to vote political parties that are in favour of liberalization ,capitalism and private work.

the statals and the burocracy are a heavy and dangerous weight

i think one of the main thing to change is the mentality... the mentality to work under the state.. and by doing this you need to start first with a revolution... throw out all the political class you had, that brought greece in this condition, and vote a new political class that doesn't assume unecessary statal workers.
i don't belive in the saves the old political class is doing, this class is your enemy, you can't accept it to cut all the wages now... those politician must be punished... they can't do now what they have must done 20-30 years ago, instead of assuming al those people.

Well said.

Antigone
29-10-11, 07:54
Yes Julia, well said.

Papandreau, Venizelos and the previous Karamalis (and there are others) are all from old and very wealthy political families and they have been given positions of power simply because of their names. In Greece a name alone carries a lot of weight and that is one thing that has to change, otherwise we are doomed to repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

Although, I must admit that at first I thought Papandreau might be different, having an American mother and being educated in the US. But no, the foreign influence only gave him an acceptable superficial gloss but at the centre he is just as corrupt and untrustworthy as the rest. Hopefully the people are now angry enough to topple the stranglehold that these old families (and their business cronies) have had on power and politics in Greece.

Mzungu mchagga
29-10-11, 11:34
Well said, Julia!

Yetos
29-10-11, 15:38
Greeks have the same problem of southern italians, a lot of unnecessary statalized workers... private workers and enterprises don't have the power to sustain such heavy weight of statals, that are unpruductive.. the don't create money or value.....

people must understand this... statal work doesn't create economic value...

and those statal workers are the bread of socialized, leftist parties, because those workers are votes for them, because they protect them and they assume them.

people need to vote political parties that are in favour of liberalization ,capitalism and private work.

the statals and the burocracy are a heavy and dangerous weight

i think one of the main thing to change is the mentality... the mentality to work under the state.. and by doing this you need to start first with a revolution... throw out all the political class you had, that brought greece in this condition, and vote a new political class that doesn't assume unecessary statal workers.
i don't belive in the saves the old political class is doing, this class is your enemy, you can't accept it to cut all the wages now... those politician must be punished... they can't do now what they have must done 20-30 years ago, instead of assuming al those people.


you are correct to that point,

but let see the other point

lets take George pappandreou, son of andreas.

from 1981 minister everywhere from agriculture to economy,
he sign many loans,
now the one who co-doom Greece is playing it savor of Greece,

lets take semitis,
in thessaloniki he said the famous the Greek citizens are richer due to stock,
and push Greeks to play and 1 month Greeks lost 40% of their savings passing to whoever (banks included)
lets take karamanlis
he got prime ministry by promisisng no corruption,
yet his yard were full in scandals, and send no one to prison,

the one above like mantelis and tsoykatos were the one who said clear clear yes we took money but nobody can send them to judge due to a law that all crimes of a parliament member erase after 5 years, voted by parliament members,

fror more than 20-25 years Greek people search for justice, and wait peacefully so someone leader to do it,
the result is that even at 2011 Venizelos saves a Banker that took 750-860 000 000 Euros, just because he return 51 000 000
and sinfer Voskopoulos pays 2.500000 E instead of 5 000 000 because his wife is goverment member and minister,

In greece if steal a salami they send you 3 months to prison,
if you steal a million, they got their hats off,

that is what people got tired,

yesterday Heroes of WW2 were standing in many places, while many clerics and parliament-members were sitting,

the statal work you say you are correct,
but goverment instead of firing people, HIRED >25 000 workers as advisors with salary bigger than a astatal worker,

the case of Greece is tragedy and irony and comic together,

they cut retirements of people with 400 /month
while they still give >3000 to some
they put taxes to 5000 E/year while they leave 100 000 E /year with only 40%
for 3 years they can achive an agreement with Swiss banks where 650 biillion Greek money exist

there are tax models,
the state and the cleric
if I give my son a sum like 5000 E i will pay tax
above 10 000 raise to 20% tax
but if i give it to church and church give it to my son,
then I pay only 10% tax

so I give 1 000 000 to church
church gives as a gift to son 900 000 E
different ratio tax
I give 1 million to my son
tax is 200 000 so my son takes 800 000
etc etc


lets take the president of democracy,
yesterday he told he was a rebel at 1940-1945 against axis,
yes but he is the same that from 1981-1990 and 1994-2001 was minister of foreign and sign all the loans etc

there is nothing worse when then hunter, say the victim come on I will save you,
while he already bite it,


this is what the goverment partyy said in 6 june about the hair-cut

http://www.pasok.gr/portal/resource/contentObject/id/9a6fb6eb-8b3d-43c3-9f46-ffc00ee8181e

an non-responsible preposition,

yet these days they all shout as cheerleaders that hair-cut is a good thing and is saving greece,

Greeks may be are whatever but are not Stupid,

memorandum 2 was voted to avoid hair-cut,
new article 37 was not asked by Troica
Troica ask above the limit of poverty to put taxes (6500 E)

yet the lion whos is cheering that saving greece put the teeth in poor's body and leave the cases of political thieves and foreign lackeys and tax avoid outside,
is taking money from low income people and saves Laurentiadhs (bank owner)

1400 people lost their jobs due to save the Layrentiadhs
case of Alapis pharma.s

Greek people are mad also by solar power,
due to my work i know,

they brought German investors to take 500 000 000 m2 of sunny areas to put solar,
while if i ask to put a solar it will take more than 1-2 uears,

program 'Helios'

solar panels create no job places (limited)
but why they do not leave the greeks to put them and sell the energy to Germany
but bring Germans to put them and take it free?

same with OTE etc

the case reminds an old traitor, who dismissed the Epirus army so not to fight at ww2

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/el/8/85/Tsolakoglou-jodl-ferrero-1941-04-23.jpeg

edao
01-11-11, 10:41
Well it looks like Greece is getting it's democracy back, at the cost of everyone in Europe :sad-2:

No vote would leave Greece headed for the exit door on the Euro and anyone with any investment or money in Greece will run for it as the new currency is going to be worth nothing. Banks with no deposits, pension disappearing over night, good luck!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15533940

Yetos
01-11-11, 13:41
well it seems like both lose

Greek goverment and EU,

why?
cause both used Greece as an expirement,

if someone knows greeks i can posts videos from june when was the second time greeks ask for referendum

the 'bad' ....... thing is that first IMF went greece and then Greece is about to declare depth,
first they signed the pre-memorantum, the memorandum 1 and 2 and then ask people's opinion,
first they agreed in the haircut and then they make referendum,
I think that both EU and greek goverment are responsible
if you read yesterday's oli Ren interviews then you realize what was in the mind of Europeans,
he ask for zones of EU investers that have different taxes from the rest of greece, about 5-8 % while greece has 23%

so if i am greek and have a small factory i will pay 23% tax, but if I am German and have a small factory I will pay 5-8% !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

simply outrageous

On the other hand that referendum is political trick
a clever or a dirty trick,
why?
because the major opponent which is the party that entered Greece to EU in1978 is not taking place,
so if the fans of major opponents vote no that means that this party will exit Greece from Eurozone, and if they vote yes, then the goverment moves are correct,

so it mostly a trick because the major opponent has not show mark of like returning to drachmai,

no matter the result is just a no meaning referendum, since all memorandums have been signed,
that referendum should be worthy before 1/2-1 year.

edao
01-11-11, 14:08
@Yetos what would you vote yes or no.

And what is your impression of how people you know would vote?

Yetos
01-11-11, 15:15
@Yetos what would you vote yes or no.

And what is your impression of how people you know would vote?



the (excuse me) stupidity is that EU believed that Greece is upon their hands and for 2 years did not provide a good solutionso the debt went growing,
the Greek govermenent ask from poor and unemployed to pay the damage, but ουκ αν λαβεις παρα του μη εχοντος (said diogenes to the ferryman, you can take nothing from the one who has nothing)
and the big money still are abroad to the same families, who looted the loans,

if the referendum was before June surely i would vote for return to drachma since Euro is high and is a brake to greek developement,
but now is a question which needs to think back from the begin,
on the other hand the terms like free solar energy for Germany to pay the debt or economical zones with different taxes are unacceptable,
personally I want to see exactly what the question is, and what is behind,
also I believe that Germany must leave Eurozone to return to a powerfull DM and leave Euro to rest to a more flexible Euro. and not kicking the rest to make a high Euro,

On the other hand and on the razor's edge,
lets see some reactions
M Apostolaki: the referendum will bring misfuction and will divide the Greeks !!!!!
B Papandreou, No referendum, just make a goverment of unite personalities, and then go to elections,
D Bakogianni we need a goverment of non political personalities and not referendum

as you see the oligarchy system is well rooted in Greece,
ex-ministers are afraid of referendum, why?
I leave it upon you,
but it is ugly to say the people's of Greece that you are ignorants, uneducated and your choice is just nothing,
but a few personalities can think better than you and they will decide for you without you,

what do you think?
why the referendum is to be done after the signature and not before?

I do believe that a good search and change of quilty laws as also the more than 5 years responsible is must for greece, Judges must be free to investigate and judge the old politician families,
and not as Karamanlis told that will bring transparency and his yard brought more scandals,

Edao the truth is that Greeks want blood,
they want to see everyone who steal public money or hurt the economy of the land, or got rich by dirty jobs to go in prison, and his fortune to be sold to pay the loans,
they want Zeus to send his thunders and kill the 'bad' guys.

Majority is not against EU but they re-think on the future of EU,
and what Eu is asking from them, they do not want to be a protectorate,
that is why is difficult now to say yes or no, while it i was easier before 6 months,

besides don't you wonder why now? and not before 1 year?

the real bomb was not from Greek goverment but from Wolfgang Soimple (sorry if spell wrong) in Der Spiegel
telling that Greece is partially loosing the aytonomy and passes to control of Taskforce,

edao
01-11-11, 17:16
The price of Greek democracy
Robert Preston

"A decision by the Greek government to renege on all its debts would impose huge losses on European banks, the European central banks and European taxpayers.
Such a default would raise the spectre of default by other over-indebted eurozone governments, which in turn would undermine the perceived solvency of some very big banks. We could be back in the territory of paralysis of the European financial system."



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15537557

Yetos
01-11-11, 17:38
personally I dont believe that a referendum will be done

IT IS A POLITICAL TRICK

rememeber that in few days Greece has a fresh memory-celebrations of 1967 Junda
the 17 November 1973

Yetos
14-11-11, 08:55
source

http://tvxs.gr/news/ellada/omades-perifroyrisis-apo-ti-genop-gia-na-min-kobetai-reyma

it seems like Greece is in a kind of social revolt

the third Harash the extra tax from electric current or the blackmail tax as it is told,

after raising taxes,
after raising market and corp taxes
after the 'solidarity' :laughing: tax
the last tax was blackmail tax that if you do not pay it Goverment was about to cut the connection of your house with Electric Company,

it seems like the workers in order of solidarity are not cutting the connection and in case that Goverment hire privateers to use them as anti-strikers a kind of war is about to start in neighborhoods,