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View Full Version : Which European groups have phenotypical overlap with the Middle East & North Africa?



oreo_cookie
01-06-11, 21:55
I made this multiple choice, so choose as many as you want. I also included a "None" option, since this is not meant to be controversial.

oreo_cookie
02-06-11, 00:02
Also, pictures to demonstrate any points made would be great, plus specifying, if you chose a poll option, which Middle Eastern or North African group(s) you see similarities with.

St Delcambre
02-06-11, 05:55
I recognize I probably come across a bit ignorant here as an American casting a vote based upon national-generalized European phenotypes (which we all know are not set in stone.) However, if we're going to be big boys and girls and take this thread for what it's worth I'd have to cast my vote for Albanians. Then again I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the phenotypes of Mid-East/North African people and tend to generalize. :embarassed:

oreo_cookie
02-06-11, 06:04
There is actually a wide range of looks in the Middle East, with some (like Lebanese, Armenians, Syrians) coming quite close to European-looking at times, whereas Saudis and Iraqis almost never do.

St Delcambre
02-06-11, 06:35
There is actually a wide range of looks in the Middle East, with some (like Lebanese, Armenians, Syrians) coming quite close to European-looking at times, whereas Saudis and Iraqis almost never do.

That I recognize, along with a few other Mid-East/North African ethnic groups. I'm just saying my overall knowledge on the topic is rudimentary at best. Come to think of it, don't many people consider people from Armenia/Georgia/Azerbaijan/Turkey to be part of Europe? It's something I never really agreed with but yet something I see expressed by a number of people.

oreo_cookie
02-06-11, 13:20
I always consider the Caucasus to be part of the Middle East.

oreo_cookie
05-06-11, 04:15
Anyone else?

archaiocapilos
05-06-11, 17:58
Most south Europeans look like light Middle Easterners

Carlitos
05-06-11, 18:24
There are differences in light, tones, looks, like the Europeans about Germans, an Englishman is very different from a German, northern Europeans tend to see the same Mediterranean, also happens to many Mediterranean Europeans see North same, but there are differences of each other despite having apparently similar phenotypes.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u42xZ6jDNDU


Lydia Spanish Big Brother contestant is sent to Big Brother Isrrael, are both Mediterranean, but there are differences, however it is amazing how well we are treated the Spanish in Isrrael, including a man offers Lidia juice, cucumbers, Isrrael bravo, very nice!

oreo_cookie
05-06-11, 22:26
Some examples of Middle Easterners (Levantines) whom, in my opinion can pass in some European countries

http://www.poker-freak.eu/images/joseph_hachem.jpghttp://www.suckered.us/images/queen-rania.jpghttp://cache4.asset-cache.net/xc/78381288.jpg?v=1&c=IWSAsset&k=2&d=77BFBA49EF8789219B309651A2344B3FE5EEF88DB18A854A F265507435E0E374F8863F98C9F4E162

oreo_cookie
05-06-11, 22:27
Armenians who also could pass;

48534854

Carlitos
05-06-11, 23:13
^^

Yes, certain.

Anton, Bear's den
05-06-11, 23:47
Which European groups have phenotypical overlap with the Middle East & North Africa? (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26519-Which-European-groups-have-phenotypical-overlap-with-the-Middle-East-amp-North-Africa)

French football team definitely have overlap with the Middle East & North Africa


4852

julia90
06-06-11, 01:19
Southern Italians and southern Balkanians (Montenegro, Albania, Bulgaria, Macedonia) and Greece with middle-east and west Asia.

None with North Africans, Maybe some sicilians.

To oreo: Why do you post private pics of people, aren't you afraid of being denounced?... i think privacy is a right, i stopped to post in sites where people liked to post pics of private people.. . I think one should only post pics of famous people.

oreo_cookie
06-06-11, 02:02
To oreo: Why do you post private pics of people, aren't you afraid of being denounced?... i think privacy is a right, i stopped to post in sites where people liked to post pics of private people.. . I think one should only post pics of famous people.

I'll switch them to celebrity photos.. sorry! :(

Carlitos
06-06-11, 03:04
I voted no because there are many differences roughly, there may be some resemblance, some similarities and many, but in general there are more small differences that differentially mark each country that is in Europe, North Africa or the Middle East, Anyway I see more similar but far in the Middle East to North Africa, since the characteristics of the Berbers and Arabs are kept more uniform and I think that the Middle East and Europe has been more movement and number of ethnic groups involved.

oreo_cookie
06-06-11, 04:41
I voted no because there are many differences roughly, there may be some resemblance, some similarities and many, but in general there are more small differences that differentially mark each country that is in Europe, North Africa or the Middle East, Anyway I see more similar but far in the Middle East to North Africa, since the characteristics of the Berbers and Arabs are kept more uniform and I think that the Middle East and Europe has been more movement and number of ethnic groups involved.

I also think there are some North Africans who look distinct while others could be from a variety of countries in the Middle East and you wouldn't raise an eyebrow, like I've seen Moroccans who could fit in Lebanon, Egyptians who could fit in Yemen, etc.

oreo_cookie
07-06-11, 03:07
Levantines

4866486748684869

Carlitos
08-06-11, 15:35
http://imagenes.hola.com/noticias-de-actualidad/2011/04/14/letizia-rania.jpg

Wedding of Victoria of Sweden.


Some Swedish media reports have confused in their real wedding to the Princess of Asturias with the queen of Jordan.

Are given a thin air because they are both, perhaps, but to the point of confusing them can only be due to a lack of interest from the Swedish press to know the Jordanian and Spanish royals.

oreo_cookie
08-06-11, 17:02
I usually don't think Levantines and Spaniards look alike but Queen Rania and Penelope Cruz somewhat resemble one another too.

48754876

Carlitos
08-06-11, 22:17
^^^

They look at the whites of the eyes.

http://i2.esmas.com/2008/10/14/15837/penelope-cruz300x350.jpg

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_EZ38IjI0pK4/SgR3oYrXT3I/AAAAAAAAJVQ/mt1-6XVRga4/s400/reina-rania.jpg

Both are very beautiful, but never the mistake.

The look of a Spanish woman is unique and unmistakable.

oreo_cookie
09-06-11, 00:48
Penelope Cruz is slightly ambiguous though, a pan-Mediterranean type so to speak. Paz Vega to me is more distinctively Spanish.

Carlitos
09-06-11, 01:24
^^

Could be

Riccardo
09-06-11, 02:18
A lot! Italians (Northerns and Southerns), Greeks, Spainards, Portugueses, Romanians, Bulgarians, Serbians, Croatians, Sardinians...And Provençals too I would say.

oreo_cookie
09-06-11, 02:52
Some Armenians:

4877

Sybilla
12-06-11, 01:22
I voted "other" becouse Middle Easterns and Northern Africans AREN'T the same people and actually genetically they are very different (Northern Africans are mostly camitic and belong to the haplogroup family E, while Middle Easterns are mostly semitic and belong to the family J1). In Europe autosomals have shown that the highest concentration of Northern African genes are among Portugueses, while the highest Middle Eastern in Greeks, Albanians, Romanians and Sicilians/Calabrians (all with hight frequences of J2, not J1 btw). Yet these peoples cannot be considered Northern Africans or Middle Easterns, becouse obviously pure Middle Easterns/Northern Africans are very different in genetics, culture and language.
Considering also countries that are not fully Europe but can be included in it, the most Middle Eastern of all is Turkey, while the most Northern African one are Malta and Madeira.

oreo_cookie
12-06-11, 02:08
In Europe autosomals have shown that the highest concentration of Northern African genes are among Portugueses, while the highest Middle Eastern in Greeks, Albanians, Romanians and Sicilians/Calabrians (all with hight frequences of J2, not J1 btw).

This is true.
Also I know that J1 is usually thought of as a Semitic haplogroup whereas J2 is more associated with Anatolia which is likely the source of the J2 you find in Greece, Albania, Sicily and others. So the affinity with the Middle East is more with West, not Southwest Asia, which I think is what you're saying.

Carlitos
12-06-11, 23:43
The J and E which are in Europe are Europeans, like those who have come from India or elsewhere, if they are in Europe and are European.

oreo_cookie
13-06-11, 03:06
Anyone of haplogroups J or E in Europe would trace it back to the Near East from the Neolithic.

Sybilla
14-06-11, 14:52
This is true.
Also I know that J1 is usually thought of as a Semitic haplogroup whereas J2 is more associated with Anatolia which is likely the source of the J2 you find in Greece, Albania, Sicily and others. So the affinity with the Middle East is more with West, not Southwest Asia, which I think is what you're saying.

J2 seems to have arrived in Europe from Anatolia through the so called "Pelasgian peoples", that is an old Greek word used to call those people living in the northern mediterranean area before the indo-european migrations (J2 is found indeed in the whole Southern Europe, including Hiberia, the Balkans, Bulgaria, Romania, but the highest concentrations are in Greece, Portugal and Southern Italy).
It cannot be connected only to one people, even Etruscans belonged mostly to J2 (or at least did its aristocracy).
MODERN Anatolia and Arabia are mostly J1. J2 and J1 have a common stock but J2 shifted mostly in Europe (although it is still present in Middle East and among the high castas of India, the Brahmins).

Ethnically J2 can be connected to Minoics, Cretans, Etruscans, Pelasgians, Iberians, Indian Brahmins (as well as R1a).


Anyone of haplogroups J or E in Europe would trace it back to the Near East from the Neolithic.

Apparenly these haplogroups entered in Europe from Turkey in the neolithic. Yet ancient Turkey was very different from modern Turkey, becouse migrations from Central Asia and Europe had not happened yet). In Hiberia J2 holders found the local population holding R1b, in Italy J2 holders probably arrived for first, but later, with the arrivals of the Italics, the peninsula was invaded by R1b holders arriving from central Europe (indeed the R1b of Hiberia and Italy are a bit different). In Greece J2 was also older, followed, during the Doric times, by invasions of peoples arriving from the Balkans and holding R1b and R1a.
The haplogroup E entered first in the Balkans, where it has its highest concentration or at least it had in the past and from there it was spread in the Adriatic area, including Italy, Greece, Bulgaria and Romania. An other arrival happened in Spain.
Finally J2 arrived also in central Europe but with a far less intensity during the Neolithic era: peoples from Anatolia, crossing the Balkans, arrived in Western Germany.

This is what I know. Infos about this are spread here and there on the net. :)

oreo_cookie
14-06-11, 23:46
Isn't there some link between haplogroup J2 and the Caucasus and Mesopotamia?

Carlitos
15-06-11, 00:03
Around 45,000 years before present, a mutation took place in the DNA of a woman who lived in the Near East (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near_East) or Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus). Further mutations took place in the J line which can be identified as J1a1 (27,000 yrs ago), J2a (19,000 yrs ago), J2b2 (16,000 years ago), J2b3 (5,800 yrs ago), etc. Haplogroup J (along with ‘T’) is associated with the spread of farming and herding in Europe during the Neolithic Era (8,000-10,000 yrs ago).

oreo_cookie
16-06-11, 04:40
I know J2b is heavily associated with Greece.

Sybilla
16-06-11, 14:51
In a popular version it is, but Greece holds also R1a, E3b, G, R1b... J2b is mostly an haplogroup that originated in South East Europe from the stock J, arrived from Mesopotamia.

iapetoc
16-06-11, 16:10
In a popular version it is, but Greece holds also R1a, E3b, G, R1b... J2b is mostly an haplogroup that originated in South East Europe from the stock J, arrived from Mesopotamia.

messopotamia or west minor Asia?


highest is in caucas Georgia

iapetoc
16-06-11, 16:13
Isn't there some link between haplogroup J2 and the Caucasus and Mesopotamia?


J1 is connected with Semitic and Levant and arab populations,
J1 is also strong among avars in Dagestan.


J2 is connected with Greece and minor asia, also with south asia.
depends the M or the DYS etc
also with Levant

it depends the parameters


J is wide spread, accordind the rest parameters could mean south asian, shephardic jews, Greeks etc, the highest is in Georgia,
just give what kind of J you are interested.

Reinaert
16-06-11, 18:53
Well J and E aren't a people anywhere in Europe. They are however a rather small minority in most European countries, that have fully integrated in those countries for maybe a 1000 years or more.
There are 2 possibilities:
1) J and E came to Europe via the trading routes from the Mediterranean Sea to the waters around England, France, Belgium and The Netherlands. Maybe Phoenicians, Carthaginians and other sea people.
2) J and E came to the rest of Europe in the times of the Roman Empire. Soldiers, traders and so on.


My opinion is that this poll makes no sense at all.

oreo_cookie
16-06-11, 20:34
Well J and E aren't a people anywhere in Europe. They are however a rather small minority in most European countries, that have fully integrated in those countries for maybe a 1000 years or more.
There are 2 possibilities:
1) J and E came to Europe via the trading routes from the Mediterranean Sea to the waters around England, France, Belgium and The Netherlands. Maybe Phoenicians, Carthaginians and other sea people.
2) J and E came to the rest of Europe in the times of the Roman Empire. Soldiers, traders and so on.


My opinion is that this poll makes no sense at all.

While that might be true for the most part, I think it makes more sense to overall connect the spread of J and E in Europe to the Neolithic and not to any "historical" populations (Romans, Greeks, etc.) except in cases like the Greek colonization of the southern Balkans and parts of Italy, or the Phoenicians in southern Spain, etc. The Romans actually would have been more likely to be R1b than J or E.

iapetoc
17-06-11, 01:33
While that might be true for the most part, I think it makes more sense to overall connect the spread of J and E in Europe to the Neolithic and not to any "historical" populations (Romans, Greeks, etc.) except in cases like the Greek colonization of the southern Balkans and parts of Italy, or the Phoenicians in southern Spain, etc. The Romans actually would have been more likely to be R1b than J or E.

are you sure? etruscans were G and J enough.

offcourse not E

oreo_cookie
17-06-11, 01:50
are you sure? etruscans were G and J enough.

offcourse not E

Well central Italy today has the following (according to the table here)

10% I
3.5% R1a
43% R1b
8.5% G
21.5% J
10% E
3.5% T

So of that, there's still a pretty high amount of R1b.. almost half. But there is a significant amount of J as well.

Carlitos
17-06-11, 23:26
This is an amazing cocoa, a German sent me an e-mail asking me to complete my V22 to 67 DNA to study the V22 in the Alps, now I do not want to spend a euro cent come the holidays, is there E1b1b1a3 in Los Alps?, I really think that this is still in its infancy and much remains to study the project of E does not venture to draw many conclusions as I see it done here on the R1b for example, that anyone would venture to say where it comes from until the last tribe of the remotest corners of Europe.

archaiocapilos
17-06-11, 23:31
I know J2b is heavily associated with Greece.
I have explained in other topics that J2b is always less than J2a in Greece (but J2b has it's maximum diversity in Thessaly) so you can't say that J2b is specifically related with Greeks. The maximum frequency of J2b is in Albanians (around 15%).

iapetoc
18-06-11, 02:28
Well central Italy today has the following (according to the table here)

10% I
3.5% R1a
43% R1b
8.5% G
21.5% J
10% E
3.5% T

So of that, there's still a pretty high amount of R1b.. almost half. But there is a significant amount of J as well.



Another study showed that the areas of historical Etruscan occupation share a relatively high concentration of y-haplogroup G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29) with Anatolians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia), and the people of Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus), where the haplogroup reaches its greatest presence, particularly amongst the Ossetians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetia) and Georgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28country%29). This evidence is not specific to any period or calendar date, and might reflect contiguous populations or significant migration far back in the Stone Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Age).

Another study by geneticist Alberto Piazza of the University of Turin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Turin) linked the Etruscans to Turkey. The team compared DNA sequences with those from men in modern Turkey, northern Italy, the Greek island of Lemnos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnos), the Italian islands of Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily) and Sardinia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia) and the southern Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans). They found that the genetic sequences of the Tuscan men varied significantly from those of men in surrounding regions in Italy, and that the men from Murlo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murlo) and Volterra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volterra) were the most closely related to men from Turkey. In Murlo in particular, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey

In 2004 a team from Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) and Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) undertook a genetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_genetics) study of the Etruscans, based on mitochondrial DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA) (mtDNA) from 80 bone samples taken from tombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb) dating from the seventh century to the third century BC in Etruria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruria).[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins#cite_note-13) This study found that the ancient DNA extracted from the Etruscan remains had some affininties with modern European populations including Tuscans in Italy. In addition the Etruscan samples possibly revealed more genetic inheritance from the eastern and southern Mediterranean than modern Italian samples contain.

Etruscans were mostly G and J people, R1b is Italocelic,

oreo_cookie
19-06-11, 02:21
Another study showed that the areas of historical Etruscan occupation share a relatively high concentration of y-haplogroup G (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_G_%28Y-DNA%29) with Anatolians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatolia), and the people of Caucasus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caucasus), where the haplogroup reaches its greatest presence, particularly amongst the Ossetians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossetia) and Georgians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_%28country%29). This evidence is not specific to any period or calendar date, and might reflect contiguous populations or significant migration far back in the Stone Age (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Age).

Another study by geneticist Alberto Piazza of the University of Turin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Turin) linked the Etruscans to Turkey. The team compared DNA sequences with those from men in modern Turkey, northern Italy, the Greek island of Lemnos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemnos), the Italian islands of Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily) and Sardinia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sardinia) and the southern Balkans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans). They found that the genetic sequences of the Tuscan men varied significantly from those of men in surrounding regions in Italy, and that the men from Murlo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murlo) and Volterra (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volterra) were the most closely related to men from Turkey. In Murlo in particular, one genetic variant is shared only by people from Turkey

In 2004 a team from Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) and Spain (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spain) undertook a genetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Introduction_to_genetics) study of the Etruscans, based on mitochondrial DNA (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_DNA) (mtDNA) from 80 bone samples taken from tombs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tomb) dating from the seventh century to the third century BC in Etruria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruria).[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Etruscan_origins#cite_note-13) This study found that the ancient DNA extracted from the Etruscan remains had some affininties with modern European populations including Tuscans in Italy. In addition the Etruscan samples possibly revealed more genetic inheritance from the eastern and southern Mediterranean than modern Italian samples contain.

Etruscans were mostly G and J people, R1b is Italocelic,

Oh I'm not doubting that the Etruscans would have been of haplogroups G and J. I was just saying that central Italy has a significant amount of R1b as well.

Canek
28-06-11, 23:01
iberians = magrebians.

Carlitos
28-06-11, 23:44
iberians = magrebians.

Is there something wrong with the Maghreb?

Canek
29-06-11, 20:29
No, of course. Why do you ask me that?

oreo_cookie
04-07-11, 19:22
Anyone else have anything to add to this thread or vote on the poll? Unlike the other thread, let's keep this one on topic.

Carlitos
05-07-11, 00:34
No, of course. Why do you ask me that?

Because I see that the Spanish are very present in your thoughts. Remember that in Europe we do not have your roles, so no projects.

Sybilla
10-07-11, 15:25
Well central Italy today has the following (according to the table here)

10% I
3.5% R1a
43% R1b
8.5% G
21.5% J
10% E
3.5% T

So of that, there's still a pretty high amount of R1b.. almost half. But there is a significant amount of J as well.

From what I have read, considering that modern Tuscans have a very high percentage of R1b, theories suggest that ancient Etruscans had a sort of casta-system in which the richest class was Mediterranean and probably arrived from modern Turkey and belonged the haplogroup J, but most of people -the mass - were natives and belonged to the R1b stock, so they were not different from their Celtic and Italic neighbours..
The rich Etruscans could buy wonderful graves that have survived to the time. Inside them archeologists have found a lot of J.


Isn't there some link between haplogroup J2 and the Caucasus and Mesopotamia?

Modern Y-haplogroups in the world.

5005

Haplogroup J2b (the "European" J)

5006

J2 highest picks are in the Balkans, Romania and in southern Italy, but also in India among high castas. It's not very West-Asiatic. It's more a Greek-Illyrian thing.

oreo_cookie
18-07-11, 18:59
Question.. which West Asians do you guys think look closer to Europeans; Caucasus (Armenia/Georgia) or the Levant (Lebanon/Syria/Palestine)?

Knovas
18-07-11, 19:02
In my opinion the Caucasus populations are slightly closer to Europeans.

Cambrius (The Red)
18-07-11, 19:16
Georgians seem to be the closest phenotypically to Europeans.

oreo_cookie
18-07-11, 19:19
Georgians I have seen look a bit like this... could they fit in Europe?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5242/5198365061_2792fcd3ba_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5198961864_ecf53ac8a9_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/5198961382_3891024710_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5198960588_0ac15e0d64_m.jpg

Cambrius (The Red)
18-07-11, 19:25
Certainly the third and fourth ones from the left would fit.

oreo_cookie
18-07-11, 19:33
What about the first woman? I think she has a common look to the Caucasus.

Knovas
18-07-11, 20:12
They are very similar, and their major component is West Asian (near 75 %, very high). Some Saudis get near 100 % Southwest Asian, and they clearly don't look as European as Georgians and others do.

oreo_cookie
18-07-11, 20:24
They are very similar, and their major component is West Asian (near 75 %, very high). Some Saudis get near 100 % Southwest Asian, and they clearly don't look as European as Georgians and others do.


How different would you say Armenians and Georgians look from the Lebanese?

Knovas
18-07-11, 20:34
I rather not say...Lebanese, Syrians, Jordanians, etc., are quite closer genetically speaking between them, with very similar Mediterranean, West Asian, and Southwest Asian proportions. I think it's posible that sometimes quite of them can look almost the same as Georgians, but there would be much more phenotypical diversity according to the autosomal data.

Cambrius (The Red)
18-07-11, 21:41
She looks more western Turkish, IMO.

oreo_cookie
18-07-11, 22:08
Would any of these Armenians fit in Europe and if so where?

http://a.imagehost.org/0781/arm3.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0912/arm12.jpghttp://a.imagehost.org/0023/arm6.jpghttp://h.imagehost.org/0439/arm14.jpghttp://j.imagehost.org/0032/arm9.jpg

Knovas
18-07-11, 22:17
Not the second (I must admit he is rare), but the others can fit. Very difficult to say countries...just the fourth can pass as Bulgarian, Serbian, Romanian...something like this.

iapetoc
18-07-11, 22:27
Are you nuts?

my wife Armenian???, the last one is bad copy of my wife before some years, what armenian and blue pizzas you talk about,

typical North Greek, or around balkanic,
that type is very common here, at least 1/5-7 women

gush!!!! where did you find the copy of my wife?

are you sure the girl is Armenian?

Cambrius (The Red)
18-07-11, 22:53
The first, France, Spain, Portugal and parts of the U.K. The two women could pass for Greek or S. Italian / C. Italian and the third man down looks somewhat Balkanite.

Carlitos
18-07-11, 23:44
Georgians I have seen look a bit like this... could they fit in Europe?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5242/5198365061_2792fcd3ba_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5198961864_ecf53ac8a9_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/5198961382_3891024710_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5198960588_0ac15e0d64_m.jpg

Yes completely. The first one seems to me gypsy, the second one might fit perfectly as Catalan, third as French, and the fourth one perhaps as Rumanian.

Carlitos
18-07-11, 23:52
Would any of these Armenians fit in Europe and if so where?

The first one in France, the quarter and the fifth one also in France and Spain. The old man we will leave the poor person alone, enough he must have suffered. Although I have to say, that what less it fits in Spain it is the nostril.

Knovas
19-07-11, 00:00
The Fourth it looks Greek to me (I'm not refering to the Armenian woman, I don't know what to think of her).

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 00:19
Are you nuts?

my wife Armenian???, the last one is bad copy of my wife before some years, what armenian and blue pizzas you talk about,

typical North Greek, or around balkanic,
that type is very common here, at least 1/5-7 womenThis type is also present in Anatolia, especially among Greeks and Armenians I think...

Carlitos
19-07-11, 00:20
The Fourth it looks Greek to me (I'm not refering to the Armenian woman, I don't know what to think of her).

The youth still makes her dream, to have illusions, but already in his look there is seen the defeat into which his life will turn in a few years or decades.

iapetoc
19-07-11, 01:17
This type is also present in Anatolia, especially among Greeks and Armenians I think...

if you go sindos, chalastra and around area, you will find many of that style, little less red, little less light brown many,
also in areas around Vermio Pieria Paiko, and east chalkidike, even to Grevena area is easy to find,
even the hair is the same, the style I call curly hairs of ancient greeks, only less redish more brown,
when i show the fifth photo, to my wife she went to search for her own photos before 10 years,

in many villages even in slavophones you find that type,
I believe exist also in central greece and in peloponese, little more darker,
that style is believed that was Alexander looking
remember Xanthios month comes not from blond but from Ξανθεμα of weapons, a refresh and scrutch of the weapons, early summer time, in fact the light brown or some blond-lighter hair is the one we call Blonde, cause true blond like North is little bit rare,
so bronze took a red-yellow color that soon drops in light brown, and iron a live red-brown, the ones ancients Makedonians called Xantho color

if you know about farming, then you know that tobacco farmers when comes time to gather the leaf they get a red-brown or blonde-brown colour, that return to original after late september,

the girl in 3rd photo look like Armenian, she can be, although we find that type from Greece to Levant and Jordania to Georgia, it is not common but not that rare, you could also pass as pontic Greek, or Cretan, if she had bigger forehead, I could say even Italy and Spain


yo cookie where you find that pic? are you sure the girl is armenian?

oreo_cookie
19-07-11, 05:40
I found these pictures on Anthrocivitas.

oreo_cookie
19-07-11, 05:42
Could this Lebanese people fit in Europe (and if so where)?


http://www.ontheroadinamerica.tv/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/prof_lama.jpghttp://www.opendemocracy.net/files/image_cropped-1.JPGhttp://blogbaladi.com/images/51041.jpghttp://pibillwarner.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/hammoud073008_32367d.jpg

Knovas
19-07-11, 10:18
The first woman looks Italian (only the nose is what doesn't fit), and the second can pass as a Spanish woman.

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 12:10
in many villages even in slavophones you find that type,
I believe exist also in central greece and in peloponese, little more darker,

If the hair were a little darker she would be the Armenian twin of a Pontic Greek girl that I know... Pontians look like a Greek/Armenian/Georgian mix I think (all Orthodox Christians so mixxing was allowed)

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 15:44
The top two could pass. The bottom two look much more Levantine.

Carlitos
19-07-11, 16:12
Could this Lebanese people fit in Europe (and if so where)?


http://www.ontheroadinamerica.tv/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/prof_lama.jpghttp://www.opendemocracy.net/files/image_cropped-1.JPGhttp://blogbaladi.com/images/51041.jpghttp://pibillwarner.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/hammoud073008_32367d.jpg

Oh yes, the first north of Spain, the second Catalonia, 3º Madrid, 4º Castillian or La Mancha.

oreo_cookie
19-07-11, 18:59
The top two could pass. The bottom two look much more Levantine.

Where?
Also, the bottom two, do you think they could even as a rare type?

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 19:03
@ oreo cookie

Parts of Southern Europe. The woman pictured in the top right looks like she could be N. Spanish, Portuguese or French. The younger woman could fit in Italy and some other places.

The bottom two would be somewhat atypical in Europe.

oreo_cookie
19-07-11, 19:33
Last two.. could either of these fit in Europe anywhere and where if so?

Robert Kardashian (Armenian)

http://www.nndb.com/people/223/000025148/kardashian.jpg


Ralph Nader (Lebanese)


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f9/Ralph-Nader-1975.jpeg/400px-Ralph-Nader-1975.jpeg

Cambrius (The Red)
19-07-11, 20:24
Nader could actually fit pretty much in Western Europe. Is he all Lebanese?

Kardashian looks a bit Turkish, IMO.

oreo_cookie
19-07-11, 20:42
Ralph Nader is 100% Lebanese, yes. I actually think Lebanese people look more European than Armenians and Georgians do.

archaiocapilos
19-07-11, 22:30
Ralph Nader is 100% Lebanese, yes. I actually think Lebanese people look more European than Armenians and Georgians do.
Lebanese might look more European because of:
1. Sea peoples (Aegeans and Anatolians of Bronze Age who contributed to the formation of Phoenicians) 12th cent. BCE
2. Greco-Roman influence (4th cent.BCE - 6th cent CE, almost a thousand years)
3. Crusaders (12th-14th cent CE)

Wilhelm
19-07-11, 22:32
Obviously this thread is meat for hungry lions. Genetically the most middle-easterns are Sicilians/Greeks and then Balkans and the rest of Italians.

oreo_cookie
20-07-11, 00:09
Lebanese might look more European because of:
1. Sea peoples (Aegeans and Anatolians of Bronze Age who contributed to the formation of Phoenicians) 12th cent. BCE
2. Greco-Roman influence (4th cent.BCE - 6th cent CE, almost a thousand years)
3. Crusaders (12th-14th cent CE)



That could be.. I know that it is said though that Armenians also have Greek ancestry (and linguistic ties too) but I was wondering if Lebanese look more European because the Phoenicians did contribute more to Southern European genes than the Caucasus did in more recent times, thus when we see Lebanese people their look is simply more familiar. For instance there were Phoenician colonies in Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, southern Spain, etc.

archaiocapilos
20-07-11, 13:16
That could be.. I know that it is said though that Armenians also have Greek ancestry (and linguistic ties too) but I was wondering if Lebanese look more European because the Phoenicians did contribute more to Southern European genes than the Caucasus did in more recent times, thus when we see Lebanese people their look is simply more familiar. For instance there were Phoenician colonies in Sicily, Corsica, Sardinia, southern Spain, etc.
Modern Armenians are actually of large Hurrian origin that's why they've got a distinct look from other South Europeans.
I think that the Phoenicians looked quite close to ancient Greeks so they didn't alter significantly the looks of people here...

Sybilla
20-07-11, 15:00
Peoples who could pass in Europe most are those who have a very low semitic substratus, I.E. Georgians, Lebaneses, white Turks and Persians.

Sybilla
20-07-11, 15:11
Italians don't cluster with Middle Easterns but, according to some maps, with Adygeans (or Circassians) and their neighbours, the Georgians, who to me look more European than Middle Easterns. :D In short we cluster with Caucasians not with middle Easterns.

Miss Georgia

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/11/article-1281518983112-0AC1E025000005DC-94347_537x650.jpg

She could pass as Italian indeed.

iapetoc
20-07-11, 15:51
Peoples who could pass in Europe most are those who have a very low semitic substratus, I.E. Georgians, Lebaneses, white Turks and Persians.

haaaa Georgians Turks and persians semitic?

Reinaert
20-07-11, 16:28
This thread makes no sense at all!

How you look isn't important to be able to see where you come from.
There is another thread about that, and people usually don't get the nationality by just looking at a picture.
Of course there's another trick in the book.. Hear them.

I think the only way to tell what someones roots are, is the yDNA.

And in fact, all Europeans are descendants of people that originated from Africa.
It's the YDNA tree.. A, B, C, D .... and so on.

I am YDNA R1b that makes me belonging to the common Europeans.
My wife's family has YDNA J2, and that seems to have originated from the Sea People. But who were they?
Greek? Phoenician? Roman? I guess they lived in areas around the Mediterranean Sea, what makes them more Mediterraneans than Asians, Europeans or Africans.

So, the three last areas are invented from the perspective of land people.

For sea people the coastline of the entire Mediterranean Sea is one area! Not three!
Please imagine that, before you react.

Of course this also works for the North Sea.

In the early centuries it was easy to travel across the North Sea.
If you had the material, the knowledge and a group of strong warriors of course.
:ninja:

Reinaert
20-07-11, 16:33
Italians don't cluster with Middle Easterns but, according to some maps, with Adygeans (or Circassians) and their neighbours, the Georgians, who to me look more European than Middle Easterns. :D In short we cluster with Caucasians not with middle Easterns.

Miss Georgia

http://img.metro.co.uk/i/pix/2010/08/11/article-1281518983112-0AC1E025000005DC-94347_537x650.jpg

She could pass as Italian indeed.

Hmm I got the strange feeling that her head is photo-shopped.
How can a neck be more darker than a face?
The head is rather big to fit well.

iapetoc
20-07-11, 17:33
Hmm I got the strange feeling that her head is photo-shopped.
How can a neck be more darker than a face?
The head is rather big to fit well.


hAHAHAHAHA AFTER YOUR WRITING i NOTICE IT TOO,

:laughing:




I am YDNA R1b that makes me belonging to the common Europeans.
My wife's family has YDNA J2, and that seems to have originated from the Sea People. But who were they?
Greek? Phoenician? Roman? I guess they lived in areas around the Mediterranean Sea, what makes them more Mediterraneans than Asians, Europeans or Africans.


let me quess, your son at 2 did not got off sea, at 3 swimed in deep water, at 6 killed his first octapus, at 12 ask you boat, at 21 made already 3 times the circle of the world !!!! :grin:

Sybilla
20-07-11, 20:38
Hmm I got the strange feeling that her head is photo-shopped.
How can a neck be more darker than a face?
The head is rather big to fit well.

Mmm, it can be photoshopped. Well, photoshopped she could fit Italy :D Btw it's possible to have the neck darker than the face. My face, for exemple, is far slower to tan than the rest of the body, usually becomes red but later comes back cadaveric white, while the rest of the body becomes brown. I must use tanning creams for the face.

An other picture of her



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fP1y4T5-DFE/THJTcb8gB-I/AAAAAAAABhw/wYHZO_gVtPY/s1600/Nana+Gogichaishvili,+Miss+Georgia+2010.jpg
haaaa Georgians Turks and persians semitic?

I said that Georgians, Turks and Persians aren't semitic and that there is were you can find most European looking individuals out of Europe.

Wilhelm
20-07-11, 20:57
The nose looks exotic, to pass for european. Georgians often look like levantines/middle-easterns.

Carlitos
20-07-11, 22:25
She would be better with a few kilograms of more.

Reinaert
20-07-11, 23:01
Mmm, it can be photoshopped. Well, photoshopped she could fit Italy :D Btw it's possible to have the neck darker than the face. My face, for exemple, is far slower to tan than the rest of the body, usually becomes red but later comes back cadaveric white, while the rest of the body becomes brown. I must use tanning creams for the face.

An other picture of her.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fP1y4T5-DFE/THJTcb8gB-I/AAAAAAAABhw/wYHZO_gVtPY/s1600/Nana+Gogichaishvili,+Miss+Georgia+2010.jpg

I said that Georgians, Turks and Persians aren't semitic and that there is were you can find most European looking individuals out of Europe.

This photo looks very original.

The hard flashlight is disturbing the photo.
So it must be real.. :rolleyes2:

oreo_cookie
20-07-11, 23:40
I personally don't think Georgians look any more European than Armenians do.

Sybilla
21-07-11, 22:37
The nose looks exotic, to pass for european. Georgians often look like levantines/middle-easterns.

If I hadn't said that she's Georgian, you would never have guessed that she isn't European, be honest. I have seen Spaniards with more exotic look (like Banderas). And if you dunno yet, Georgians aren't Semitic but Ibero-Caucasians XD Indeed they are of the same stock of Etruscans, Pelasgians and Protobasques. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgian_people ;)

archaiocapilos
22-07-11, 00:19
An other picture of her



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fP1y4T5-DFE/THJTcb8gB-I/AAAAAAAABhw/wYHZO_gVtPY/s1600/Nana+Gogichaishvili,+Miss+Georgia+2010.jpg

.
She doesn't look completely European because she has a very long bi-zygomatic distance (that exceeds her head width) which is a East or Central Asian charachteristic

LeBrok
22-07-11, 05:44
You people are nuts. Neck is alway darker than face, it's in a shadow of a chin and hair in here case. Anyway less light is bouncing of neck, it's rounder than face. Besides, girl was using more makeup on her face, and probably lighter foundation. Maybe because she wanted to look more European, because so many of you cares! I don't, and she's so beautiful I could take here home tonight. lol
No need for photoshop here..., hmmmm, unless there is a conspiracy to trick you, hehe.

zanipolo
22-07-11, 09:25
Mmm, it can be photoshopped. Well, photoshopped she could fit Italy :D Btw it's possible to have the neck darker than the face. My face, for exemple, is far slower to tan than the rest of the body, usually becomes red but later comes back cadaveric white, while the rest of the body becomes brown. I must use tanning creams for the face.

An other picture of her



http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_fP1y4T5-DFE/THJTcb8gB-I/AAAAAAAABhw/wYHZO_gVtPY/s1600/Nana+Gogichaishvili,+Miss+Georgia+2010.jpg

I said that Georgians, Turks and Persians aren't semitic and that there is were you can find most European looking individuals out of Europe.

her cheek structure and nose look like FRISIAN , the old germanic type,. could be frisian not from the dutch side, but from Holstein

Reinaert
22-07-11, 10:42
Frisian?

Look how a real Frisian woman looks like.

http://www.makeupinfo.nl/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/doutzen-kroes-lmff09.jpg

zanipolo
22-07-11, 10:48
Georgians I have seen look a bit like this... could they fit in Europe?

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5242/5198365061_2792fcd3ba_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4125/5198961864_ecf53ac8a9_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4107/5198961382_3891024710_m.jpghttp://farm5.static.flickr.com/4110/5198960588_0ac15e0d64_m.jpg


is that one on the left from the osborne family?

zanipolo
22-07-11, 10:49
Frisian?

Look how a real Frisian woman looks like.

http://www.makeupinfo.nl/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/doutzen-kroes-lmff09.jpg

hmm, no picture, does this mean extinct?

Reinaert
22-07-11, 11:27
I see the picture though.

http://www.makeupinfo.nl/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/doutzen-kroes-lmff09.jpg

zanipolo
22-07-11, 11:31
I see the picture though.

http://www.makeupinfo.nl/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/doutzen-kroes-lmff09.jpg

sorry I get error 404, thankyou anyway

Reinaert
22-07-11, 19:12
Well..
This might work..

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/Briganti/doutzen-kroes-lmff09.jpg

zanipolo
22-07-11, 22:23
Well..
This might work..

http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b169/Briganti/doutzen-kroes-lmff09.jpg

hmmm, nearly a twin of my cousin, i say northern italian or austrian ( central and eastern alpine area )

oreo_cookie
30-07-11, 05:32
Anyone else have an opinion on this or want to vote on the poll?

Wilhelm
09-09-11, 04:38
According to Oracle Dodecad the Hungarians are genetically as close to north-africans as spaniards are.

oreo_cookie
14-10-11, 17:02
According to Oracle Dodecad the Hungarians are genetically as close to north-africans as spaniards are.

And also in all likelihood closer to Central Asians than Spaniards are too.

julia90
03-03-12, 02:19
with the middle east via West Asian genes, southern italy and the balkans.
Since middle eastern have west asian genes; and via some south west asian genes (more rarer in south east europe than caucasian genes).

South-eastern europeans haven't similarity with northern africans, (expecially greeks or people from the balkans); some similarity with ancient northern africans (possibly kabyle) is found in sicily, sardinia and portugal; but i would say mostly Malta and the Canaries are the more similar with north africans; i don't know about cyprus, but i suppose they are very different from north africans, and their exotic genes are from middle east

Carlos
03-03-12, 03:54
Similarities? The question is so wide that all the options really vote because I think you can find similarities in all.

wormhole
09-08-12, 22:21
Spaniards/Portuguese and Sicilians. Sicilians aren't Italian. That's why it's funny that they have majority vote. The OP should have separated normal Southern Italians from Sicilians for more accuracy.

Carlos
31-10-12, 01:44
Spaniards/Portuguese and Sicilians. Sicilians aren't Italian. That's why it's funny that they have majority vote. The OP should have separated normal Southern Italians from Sicilians for more accuracy.

Since you have been discharged, glad?

----------0-----------

I've been really good photos and you could say that of Western Europe, also Russia and many countries in Eastern Europe.

Cambrius (The Red)
15-01-13, 19:46
@Wormhole

What's your point? Let's put it this way, your agenda, ostensibly motivated by racial insecurity, doesn't work here - absurd.

The majority fraction of Spaniards and Portuguese are Atlantic in phenotype; evidenced by ~ 50% Northern, North-west and Eastern European autosomal DNA (an essential determinant of PHENOTYPE). See Eurogenes K-12. Mixed types, found primarily in large mainland urban municipalities and, to a lesser extent places like Madeira and the Azores, are NOT genetically autochthonous Iberians.

Alan
03-10-13, 22:09
There is actually a wide range of looks in the Middle East, with some (like Lebanese, Armenians, Syrians) coming quite close to European-looking at times, whereas Saudis and Iraqis almost never do.

Your average Iraqi looks more similar to your average Levantine so there is no reason to mention them in one breath with Saudis. Not even your average Kuwaitis do to Saudis. Most Iraqis are related to Sunni Arab tribes in Southeast Syria and Jordan and allot have Iranic ancestors too. Kuwaitis are a more diverse bunch. The majority of Kuwaitis are of Arabs and Persian origin. Than you have a larger minority of Baloch, Palestinians, Kurds with some Pakistani and Indian communities/workers.

Iraqis
6027 6028 6029


Kuwaitis
60306031

Ike
03-10-13, 23:32
I'm a bit sick of these phenotypal threads. They always end up full of pictures of blond Armenians, ginger Egyptians and Albino Indians.

adamo
04-10-13, 09:08
Armenians and Lebanese tend to be slightly lighter because Armenian's have a present chunk of R1b (30%), rivalling and defeating J2 for the countrie's highest paternal marker (25-30% as well.) They're lighter because more J2 I guess saves them from the extremely Arabian/olive-skinned look of the J1 Arabs. I personally noticed that southern middle easterners such as Saudis, Jordanians, Yemenites, Omanites almost always tend to be darker. Ironically they also have quite high J1 levels. There hair is always very black, they're skin very olive; many Lebanese and Armenians could probably pass for Mediterranean Europeans because they have thick black hair but a slightly lighter complexity, probably due to their higher R1a,R1b,J2 levels than Saudis or Iraqis have.

Yaan
05-10-13, 22:19
Again some person with a hidden agenda puts us in with these people. If somebody say we overlap with them he/she is either a liar or with agenda. So admit which one. Also why are we put on the same level as Romanians, we have different mentality, language,history etc. If u put us with Macedonians ofc true, with Serbs why not, but Romanians and Bulgarians, OK then Dutch and French is the same thing!!!!

Yaan
05-10-13, 22:19
I do not mean the maker of the poll but the 10 liar or propaganda people, which voted. I am here and I will fight for the truth!

TrickleDownEffect
11-03-15, 18:05
Sicilians aren't Italian

Sicilians ARE italian

RobertColumbia
25-06-15, 18:16
...I'd have to cast my vote for Albanians. Then again I'm not very knowledgeable when it comes to the phenotypes of Mid-East/North African people and tend to generalize. :embarassed:

Interesting answer. I wonder if the fact that Albanians have been predominantly Muslim (or at least nominally Muslim) for some time might be related to this. Do you think that the Arab and/or Turkish missionaries who brought and/or popularized Islam in Albania stayed around and intermarried with the locals to an extent not seen in predominantly Christian areas (where, presumably, there was less Arab and/or Turkish influence re: religion), or do you think that the perception of Albanians as Muslims leads one to visualize them as a "stereotypical" Muslim who looks and acts in a stereotypically Arab way?

RobertColumbia
25-06-15, 18:22
...Sicilians aren't Italian....

There's an interesting point here, which is that Italian the nationality may not exactly match up 100% with Italian the ethnicity. I believe that many Faroe Islanders do not consider themselves to be ethnically Danish despite holding Danish citizenship. There's also a similar idea floating around in the USA that Puerto Ricans have a separate national identity despite being US citizens.

Hauteville
26-06-15, 21:41
There's an interesting point here, which is that Italian the nationality may not exactly match up 100% with Italian the ethnicity. I believe that many Faroe Islanders do not consider themselves to be ethnically Danish despite holding Danish citizenship. There's also a similar idea floating around in the USA that Puerto Ricans have a separate national identity despite being US citizens.


Sicilians are 100% italians, italians from south but italians.
The source is myself 100% sicilian born and raised in Palermo not an american guido without knowledge of our people.

MOESAN
08-10-15, 23:28
Armenians and Lebanese tend to be slightly lighter because Armenian's have a present chunk of R1b (30%), rivalling and defeating J2 for the countrie's highest paternal marker (25-30% as well.) They're lighter because more J2 I guess saves them from the extremely Arabian/olive-skinned look of the J1 Arabs. I personally noticed that southern middle easterners such as Saudis, Jordanians, Yemenites, Omanites almost always tend to be darker. Ironically they also have quite high J1 levels. There hair is always very black, they're skin very olive; many Lebanese and Armenians could probably pass for Mediterranean Europeans because they have thick black hair but a slightly lighter complexity, probably due to their higher R1a,R1b,J2 levels than Saudis or Iraqis have.

I 'll not discuss your comments about skin pigmentation, even if the "Arabic" peninsula is not homogenous at all for that, because as a whole I can agree - but we are not sure it's Y-J1 which is responsible for darker skin: J1 ancestors, surely came from North as well as J2 ones, maybe they were an East Near Eastern almost Middle Eastern marker at some stage of history - we can think the auDNA they catched in greater Arabia was legated by female ligneages for the most; the "autochtonous Y-haplos would have rather been a kind of Y-E1b + some rare Y-G2 ??? that doesn' t exclude a return flow from "southerned" Y-J1 at Islam times... Just a thought.

oreo_cookie
22-10-15, 02:29
I 'll not discuss your comments about skin pigmentation, even if the "Arabic" peninsula is not homogenous at all for that, because as a whole I can agree - but we are not sure it's Y-J1 which is responsible for darker skin: J1 ancestors, surely came from North as well as J2 ones, maybe they were an East Near Eastern almost Middle Eastern marker at some stage of history - we can think the auDNA they catched in greater Arabia was legated by female ligneages for the most; the "autochtonous Y-haplos would have rather been a kind of Y-E1b + some rare Y-G2 ??? that doesn' t exclude a return flow from "southerned" Y-J1 at Islam times... Just a thought.

J1 is from the Arabian Peninsula is it not? J2 is from Mesopotamia and spread into the rest of the Near East.

MOESAN
29-12-16, 20:00
late answer: I don't think the first Y-J1 were born in Arabian Peninsula at all. They developped some peculiar clades of it there later and became the most numerous bearers of it but the origins?...

Angela
29-12-16, 20:03
late answer: I don't think the first Y-J1 were born in Arabian Peninsula at all. They developped some peculiar clades of it there later and became the most numerous bearers of it but the origins?... Exactly right. What we're seeing is a massive founder effect.

Karol šiška
31-12-16, 05:00
who voted Swedish people?? lol is that for real, ive never seen one Swedish person even coming close to passing as middle eastern, maybe some(very rarely) as an ambiguous "southern European" but never middle eastern. Greeks from everyone have types that can pass in the middle east. Ive met very light greeks and most still just look southern European but from all Europeans, ive met a few greeks who could pass as full arabs. Southern Italians would come next, then spain, southern france, and the rest of the Balkan countries...in that order.