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oreo_cookie
05-06-11, 04:40
What do you think?

Riccardo
05-06-11, 13:25
We are a good mix I think! It depends on people, but more or less we are in the middle, geographically and in looking.

Knovas
05-06-11, 15:11
I think Italians are closer to Greeks. Of course, there are Iberians who can pass as Italians and viceversa, but in general terms I vote for this option.

I think genetics also support this. Recently, there was a preliminary run at Eurogenes for Southern Europeans where the Southeastern/Anatolian cluster seemed to be the clearest one. The results show that Spaniards score quite low here, while it gets high in North Italians, the rest of Italians, Greeks, Cypriots and Turks.

Here is the spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdFFfXzVBQnd2dm9jVVFmM0lvdV9zc Xc&hl=en_US&authkey=CIiKmgU#gid=0

PD: Portuguese are more or less the same as Spaniards in the spreadsheet.

oreo_cookie
05-06-11, 16:34
I think genetics also support this. Recently, there was a preliminary run at Eurogenes for Southern Europeans where the Southeastern/Anatolian cluster seemed to be the clearest one. The results show that Spaniards score quite low here, while it gets high in North Italians, the rest of Italians, Greeks, Cypriots and Turks.

Here is the spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0Ato3EYTdM8lQdFFfXzVBQnd2dm9jVVFmM0lvdV9zc Xc&hl=en_US&authkey=CIiKmgU#gid=0

PD: Portuguese are more or less the same as Spaniards in the spreadsheet.

I think it's due to Italy and Greece's more eastward location, closer to Anatolia and the Caucasus than where the Iberian Peninsula is located. I noticed from the values that Northern Italians have only slightly more of the Southeast European cluster than Iberians )so they might actually be closer to Iberians), while Tuscans have between 30-40% of it, and the rest, labeled "Italian" must be the southerners and for most of them it's their majority cluster.

As far as looks I'll wait for more people to vote on the poll. In a diverse country it's probably hard to give an opinion but thanks for your input :)

julia90
06-06-11, 01:39
N It clusters with Spaniards while Southern with Greeks.

Generally what i've noticed is that northern italians and Spaniards have more of a fair skin tone, while southern italians range more in the olive skin group toghether with greeks and some south balkanians.
Also italians have many convex noses (also northern italians) which is a mark of mediterranean and middle east (obviously) genetic.


Types like him, that you find in many northern italians could have a look in common with spaniards and also more with central europeans
http://www.airdave.it/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/nek.jpg
He still looks southerns like N italians and Spaniards, but he has a fair skin tone.


This girl who has a decise profile (strong convex nose) is more common in the balkans, greece and has some similarity with west asian and middle eastern types, it is more common in southern italy but you find it also elsewhere in italy, while you don't find it in Spain for what i have seen... maybe some spaniards forumers can confirm this or argue it.
http://www.isaechia.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Margherita-Zanatta-a-Radio-Deejay-1.jpg
http://cdn.mondoreality.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Margherita-Zanatta.jpg

Carlitos
06-06-11, 01:56
^^

That girl's face I find it very strange, if I saw in Spain think that is a Basque girl.




Short collection of noses of andalusian actresses and singers of all time, in honor of Julia, who loves pictures.


http://pepecamacho.es/ARCHIVOS/paquitarico/paquita4.jpg
Paquita Rico.
http://www.chueca.com/UpImages/2157/imperio_argentina_copla_7f95062d5685b0fdcd5b1fe88. jpg
Imperio Argentina
http://img191.imageshack.us/img191/9007/marifdetrianatorredeare.jpg

http://www.elpais.com/recorte/20100927elpmad_6/XXLCO/Ies/Marisol_Carmen_Sevilla_fotografiadas_Cesar_Lucas.j pg
Marisol and Carmen Sevilla.

oreo_cookie
06-06-11, 02:22
I never found Andalusians to be as exotic as people have made them out to be.. I don't think they look any different from other parts of Spain and the pictures above confirmed this.

Carlitos
06-06-11, 02:37
^^

We have done much damage to the lies about the supposed Arab invasion, and no people in the world has had to endure impute a false identity as the Andalusian people, always winning the battles are those that tell the story.


That's in the past, but this imitation of the regionalist nazionale some Spanish regions imported from central Europe, is trying to highlight differences in order to have grounds for their claims of independence, suddenly emerging bands that mimic Celtic tunes, can not conduct a more abrupt differentiation as performed by some sectors between Northern Italy and Southern of Italy because the evidence does not allow it, but good, eventually the truth always wins in pursuit of reason and balance between the Spanish.

oreo_cookie
06-06-11, 02:42
^^

We have done much damage to the lies about the supposed Arab invasion, and no people in the world has had to endure impute a false identity as the Andalusian people, always winning the battles are those that tell the story.


That's in the past, but this imitation of the regionalist nazionale some Spanish regions imported from central Europe, is trying to highlight differences in order to have grounds for their claims of independence, suddenly emerging bands that mimic Celtic tunes, can not conduct a more abrupt differentiation as performed by some sectors between Northern Italy and Southern Spain because the evidence does not allow it, but good, eventually the truth always wins in pursuit of reason and balance between the Spanish.

I've heard so many statements about Andalusians that it's not even funny, everything ranging from Gypsy-admixed, part black, mostly Arabian, etc. but to be honest Andalusians to me along with the rest of Spain look distinctly Western European with little to no foreign influence, and I always thought they looked like the French and the northern Italians. Btw did you vote on this poll and my other one?

Carlitos
06-06-11, 02:57
^^

All three are Mediterranean countries, but that's what I say, is like trying to compare Ireland with Germans and Swedes. Although phenotypes are shared more or less, the Italians are different from Spanish or Greek, Chassis finish the Italians is more refined, but I think that when a Greek or Spanish are cute can overcome the handsomest of the Italians.

Drac
06-06-11, 09:04
Generally what i've noticed is that northern italians and Spaniards have more of a fair skin tone, while southern italians range more in the olive skin group toghether with greeks and some south balkanians.
Also italians have many convex noses (also northern italians) which is a mark of mediterranean and middle east (obviously) genetic.


This girl who has a decise profile (strong convex nose) is more common in the balkans, greece and has some similarity with west asian and middle eastern types, it is more common in southern italy but you find it also elsewhere in italy, while you don't find it in Spain for what i have seen... maybe some spaniards forumers can confirm this or argue it.

While it is true that convex noses are more common in Italy and the Balkans, Spain is not entirely free of them either. A minority of Spaniards can display very convex profiles. One of the most convex-nosed Spaniards I have ever seen is Rossy De Palma:

4855

edao
06-06-11, 11:00
http://www.mypersianbay.com/serendipity1/uploads/Paolo_Maldini_Maldini_768227.jpghttp://www.oleole.com/media/main/images/member_photos/group1/subgrp158/86967.png

julia90
06-06-11, 14:04
maldini look more Greek, althought he's nortehrn italian.
I think it's due to its squared face.

An Albianian with that squared face
http://www.kohajone.com/foto/20080528211716_artikull.jpg

julia90
06-06-11, 14:08
Rossy de palma is very strange, do you atribute her profile to proper dinarid stock?

edao
06-06-11, 14:12
I think it's due to its squared face.


I was thinking the same thing.

julia90
06-06-11, 14:14
this open face is a Balkanian and south-east european mark
http://www.taniafiorina.it/BULGARI/slides/Tosca_D%27Aquino.JPG


here's an other type even more balkanic and greek
http://cdn.mademan.com/chickipedia/images/b/ba/Loren-sophia-photo-sophia-loren-6229214_986.jpg

this face is also south-eastern but with less ethnic traits
http://images.movieplayer.it/2009/02/03/bianca-guaccero-e-grazia-nell-episodio-il-ministeriale-della-serie-il-bene-e-il-male-104527.jpg

julia90
06-06-11, 14:26
male counter parts
http://www.onlythebob.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/06/enrico-brignano3.jpg

oreo_cookie
06-06-11, 19:06
What about Claudia Cardinale? I am adding her because I always saw her as looking similar to Sophia Loren.

485748584859

oreo_cookie
06-06-11, 19:09
Rossy de palma is very strange, do you atribute her profile to proper dinarid stock?

I think she has a strange look and atypical for Spain but that's just my opinion. Maybe Baskid influence (which is related to Dinarid but is pretty specific to the Basque regions of Spain and France)?

julia90
06-06-11, 19:16
cardinale looks more balkanic

julia90
06-06-11, 19:24
as i've already posted in another thread here are some videos about Grecanic and Griko italians, direct descendent of medieval greek migrations in italy, they may show looks common among people of magna graecia

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1509581263470#
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0193251464210#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsjBQw7Pmv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9db1IHU-zs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG-Igrzhh28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DwauXY4gQw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l15YXf4aQ7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkrWMKFr1Gc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_atZH23-bk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1bLvlVgR_E

oreo_cookie
06-06-11, 19:35
as i've already posted in another thread here are some videos about Grecanic and Griko italians, direct descendent of medieval greek migrations in italy, they may show looks common among people of magna graecia

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...1509581263470#
http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...0193251464210#
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dsjBQw7Pmv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r9db1IHU-zs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UG-Igrzhh28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_DwauXY4gQw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l15YXf4aQ7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mkrWMKFr1Gc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_atZH23-bk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1bLvlVgR_E


I didn't watch all of each video but just clicking on them and scrolling through I'd say they look pretty much like other southerners.

Here are some Italian-American celebrities. I think Alyssa Milano almost would look more typically southern French than Balkan, and Kelly Ripa is very Central European in features above all but the other 3 look more like the people already posted here.

48604861486248634864http://www.eupedia.com/forum/images/misc/pencil.png

Carlitos
06-06-11, 22:32
Rossy de palma is very strange, do you atribute her profile to proper dinarid stock?

Rossy de Palma: Rosa Elena García Echave, must be of Basque origin.

Riccardo
06-06-11, 22:46
How can someone distinguish if he looks more "balcanian" or more "iberian"?

Carlitos
06-06-11, 23:22
How can someone distinguish if he looks more "balcanian" or more "iberian"?


It is my personal opinion, but what I'm seeing here so mainly photo and comments from users, I get the feeling that the Balkans are more exaggerated features, a more impenetrable, at first glance do not know what their status mood, just gives you a kiss on the contrary, while the Iberian or Iberian seems more sensual, more graceful features, although in the south the beautiful women often have well-defined factions, Iberian is also able to talk to the look and faster is denoted mood.


http://www.vanitatis.com/fotos/album/2009070614miss_murcia_dentro_g.jpg
Miss Murcia.

http://www.hola.com/hola/2000/_rcs/ho2927s61_a.jpg
Nani Gaitán.

http://www.telecinco.es/content/maincontent/51979/C_2_maincontent_51979_largeimage.jpg
Anabel Armario.

Can speak with his eyes.

oreo_cookie
06-06-11, 23:30
The way I explain the difference is that Iberians have very Western European features and although they often have darker coloring, their facial structure is very typical of Western Europe, in places like France, Britain, Ireland, northern Italy. Some darker Brits, like Orlando Bloom, Catherine Zeta Jones and Keira Knightley, look similar to Iberians.

Northern Italians to me look similar to Iberians or French but with a Central European/Alpine influence, so I picked the first option on my poll.

Riccardo
06-06-11, 23:38
It is my personal opinion, but what I'm seeing here so mainly photo and comments from users, I get the feeling that the Balkans are more exaggerated features, a more impenetrable, at first glance do not know what their status mood, just gives you a kiss on the contrary, while the Iberian or Iberian seems more sensual, more graceful features, although in the south the beautiful women often have well-defined factions, Iberian is also able to talk to the look and faster is denoted mood.


http://www.vanitatis.com/fotos/album/2009070614miss_murcia_dentro_g.jpg
Miss Murcia.

http://www.hola.com/hola/2000/_rcs/ho2927s61_a.jpg
Nani Gaitán.

http://www.telecinco.es/content/maincontent/51979/C_2_maincontent_51979_largeimage.jpg
Anabel Armario.

Can speak with his eyes.

I LOVE Iberian look, and it happened so much time ago that a Spanish girl stole my heart...The first one is stunning anyway!
How can I see if I'm closer to Iberians or closer to Balcanians? I have straight nose, big dark eyes and normal skin (you can see it from my picture).

oreo_cookie
06-06-11, 23:44
Riccardo you don't look really either Balkan or Iberian to me. More like an Austrian or southern German I'd say!

Riccardo
06-06-11, 23:50
Riccardo you don't look really either Balkan or Iberian to me. More like an Austrian or southern German I'd say!

Really? =)

It's strange because you're the first one to say that! They always say to me that I'm really Mediterranean!

Carlitos
06-06-11, 23:56
(you can see it from my picture).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKgTYHr6kHQ





Indeed, but the second picture does not do justice to Nani Gaitán, in this video are best appreciated Iberian characteristics.

oreo_cookie
06-06-11, 23:59
Really? =)

It's strange because you're the first one to say that! They always say to me that I'm really Mediterranean!

Well if I had to go either direction in the Mediterranean I'd say Croatia before Spain, but I'd say there's a Central European vibe.

julia90
07-06-11, 00:38
Vanessa Incontrada
has typical features of spaniards, slim face, oblong face, a straight more thin nose
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/vanessaincontrada/loghi/vanessahome.jpg

Natalia Estrada
is spaniard but could well pass in italy and in the balkans instead
more of a squared face
http://www.sanvoyage.com/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/2009/03/natalia-estrada.jpg


Fernando Alonso
very typical typology of mediterranean like spaniards, and quintessential spaniard
http://www.notizieitaliane.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/AlonsoFerrari4.jpg

Dani Pedrosa
could pass as balkanian too
http://www.eracemotorblog.it/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/daniel-pedrosa.jpg
http://www.topnotizie.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Dani-Pedrosa.jpg




However generically speaking spaniards have less dinaroid tendencies and less convex noses than italians or balkanians
types like him could never be spaniards (because of the dinarid tendencies)
http://multimedia.blogosfere.it/d/7246-2/gianluigi-buffon-italia.jpg
http://www.agenziagrt.it/wp-content/contenuti/Buffon-Gianluigi-001.jpg

even less Chiellini
his nose and profile strats to be common in italy and you can find it in the balkans and south east europe
http://testedicalcio.blogosfere.it/images/chiellini%20g.jpg

oreo_cookie
07-06-11, 01:42
I also think Iberians are generally the most gracile featured.

Carlitos
07-06-11, 02:12
^^

There is everything like in a drugstore.

oreo_cookie
07-06-11, 02:18
Good point. :) I agree.

LeBrok
07-06-11, 04:20
Oh look, Alonso, my favorite in F1, ....because Kubica is out of business.

oreo_cookie
07-06-11, 07:32
Some other Southern European examples. Paz Vega (Spanish from Andalusia), Nelly Furtado (Portuguese from the Azores), Francesca Chillemi (Italian from Sicily), Maria Menounos (Greek-American).

4870487148724873

Carlitos
07-06-11, 22:44
Some examples of girls Andalusian mother and foreign father.

http://hamaraphotos.com/albums300/wpw-20070905/normal_Estefania%20Luyk%20-4.jpg

Estefanía Luyk



http://www.hispanosnet.com/fotos_famosos/helen_lindes/helen_lindes_3.jpg
Helen Lindes.

edao
07-06-11, 23:09
OK, so if we take the 5 major countries in Europe.
Select the most attractive faces, what generalisations can be made if any?
This is incredibly unscientific but interesting to see what people perceptions are.

Germany - Heidi Klum
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ua4-ykEXLQk/TBk20pUHkBI/AAAAAAAABJc/umtpNTjXY_0/s400/1Heidi+Klum.jpg

France - Eva Green
http://www.librarising.com/astrology/celebs/images2/EF/evagreen.jpg

Italy - Monica Bellucci
http://www.hotbollywoodactressphotos.com/Images/monicabellucci.jpg

England - Keira KNightley
http://thecriticalcritics.com/review/wp-content/images/top10/lips/keira_knightley.jpg

Spain - Sara Carbonero
http://top100chicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/069-sara-carbonero.jpg

Carlitos
07-06-11, 23:40
¿La foto de Sara Carbonero es para el Documento Nacional de Identidad?

oreo_cookie
08-06-11, 17:22
Sara Carbonero is a bit odd-looking, something just looks off, from a European context. She almost looks like Adriana Lima.

iapetoc
08-06-11, 17:39
The problem is that sometimes in photo of famous truth does not exist,

they paint Hair
they make solarium
they make cosmetic and plastic surgery,
so try to more simple samples,

Carlitos
08-06-11, 22:28
Sara Carbonero actually exceeds UVA Anyway it denotes a good heart.

Riccardo
08-06-11, 22:36
I prefer the other Spanish girls you've posted before..I don't like so much Sara Carbonero!

Carlitos
08-06-11, 23:06
It is clear that Sara Carbonero is pretty, but not my type, I find it very strange.

Riccardo
08-06-11, 23:17
It is clear that Sara Carbonero is pretty, but not my type, I find it very strange.

Well of course, but you know, here there's a quote: "non è bello ciò che è bello, ma è bello ciò che piace". Translated: "it isn't beautiful what is beautiful, but it's beautiful what is liked". =D

edao
08-06-11, 23:22
It's interesting that you both think that, in my opinion she(Carbonero) has the most attractive face of the 5.
I think the oddest is Kiera Knightly.

I had a discussion with a firend a while ago about whether being from a certain country in Euorpe meant you were more attracted to those racial faces. They have done studies of children in america particularly looking at african american children growing up in mainly 'european american' nurseries. They found that the african american kids preffered the white faces because that was the stereotypical faces they had grown up with, this also applied to children of east asian decent that they tested.

So their research suggests our environment dictates partially our facial prefference, racially speaking.

Facial recognition is instinctually programmed into us, whether it's race specific I have no idea.
Babies under 12 months old were tested with a head set that tracked their eye movement. The children where show various images and it was show that when people faces were brought up on screen the babies immediately went for the eyes, they also tended to track along facial features like the mouth and nose. Interestingly when testing children that were autistic they found this response lacking, thier brains seemed to lack the pattern recognition of the face. As these children were so young it was clearly shown to be a preprogrammed instinctual response not a learned one.

Carlitos
08-06-11, 23:22
Well of course, but you know, here there's a quote: "non è bello ciò che è bello, ma è bello ciò che piace". Translated: "it isn't beautiful what is beautiful, but it's beautiful what is liked". =D

Per gustare i colori, diciamo in Spagna.

Carlitos
08-06-11, 23:26
edao
It's interesting that you both think that, in my opinion she(Carbonero) has the most attractive face of the 5.
I think the oddest is Kiera Knightly.

Heidi seems to me most strange. Sara's eyes are not too far apart, I wonder?

Riccardo
08-06-11, 23:29
It's interesting that you both think that, in my opinion she(Carbonero) has the most attractive face of the 5.
I think the oddest is Kiera Knightly.

I had a discussion with a firend a while ago about whether being from a certain country in Euorpe meant you were more attracted to those racial faces. They have done studies of children in america particularly looking at african american children growing up in mainly 'european american' nurseries. They found that the african american kids preffered the white faces because that was the stereotypical faces they had grown up with, this also applied to children of east asian decent that they tested.

So their research suggests our environment dictates partially our facial prefference, racially speaking.

Facial recognition is instinctually programmed into us, whether it's race specific I have no idea.
Babies under 12 months old were tested with a head set that tracked their eye movement. The children where show various images and it was show that when people faces were brought up on screen the babies immediately went for the eyes, they also tended to track along facial features like the mouth and nose. Interestingly when testing children that were autistic they found this response lacking, thier brains seemed to lack the pattern recognition of the face. As these children were so young it was clearly shown to be a preprogrammed instinctual response not a learned one.

I don't like Kiera Knightly at all. :grin:

I prefer the less famous girls posted before. But Monica Bellucci is a "pure beauty" too, in my opinion, and she gives a great representation to Italy!


Per gustare i colori, diciamo in Spagna.

Para gustos los colores, ya lo se. :satisfied:

zanipolo
10-06-11, 23:18
:grin:italians look more like europeans that any specific nation:rolleyes2:

Canek
11-06-11, 00:09
poor europeans centuries and centuries of evoultion and still obsessed about race. i'm glad of being from a continent were race don't matter. we are all the same and have the same right.

loladunas
11-06-11, 03:38
How can someone distinguish if he looks more "balcanian" or more "iberian"?

You look like an italian Riccardo but you could be French, Spanish, or German or from netherlands, you have a very neutral look, i mean you can found your type in any country i think... i know many italians here in spain; blondes brunettes and redheads, i know who is italian just see him, but i don´t think it´s by factions italians are usually more stylized than spaniards i think, spaniards are shorter but more robust sometimes people who was living in Italy said that i seem italian too lol; long nose, high thin, more thinner factions... definitely i think that you have the "ideal" of roman beauty.

loladunas
11-06-11, 03:47
latinamerican forums are plently pf racial issues, and you know that, you know that for a latin american race is more important than for a european and has much to do with social status, mestizo people despises indians and the elite in many countries is purely european,i don´t want talk about this, but i could say more many things. I don´t try to be nasty, i have l. americans friends and they´re not like you but please ¿Race is not important in Latin America? race is 1000 times more important in Lamerica than in Europe, because there race means possibility of future and social status much more than in any european country.

Maciamo
11-06-11, 11:05
Italians surely do not look Iberian, except perhaps some Portuguese or Andalusians that may pass for Italian or Greek (rather than the other way round). Northern Italians don't really look like anybody else, except perhaps some south-eastern French people (not Provençals but rather Lyonais) or perhaps even Western Turkish. Southern Italians clearly look Greek.

Canek
11-06-11, 13:20
latinamerican forums are plently pf racial issues, and you know that, you know that for a latin american race is more important than for a european and has much to do with social status, mestizo people despises indians and the elite in many countries is purely european,i don´t want talk about this, but i could say more many things. I don´t try to be nasty, i have l. americans friends and they´re not like you but please ¿Race is not important in Latin America? race is 1000 times more important in Lamerica than in Europe, because there race means possibility of future and social status much more than in any european country. i don't know about any latinamericanPEDIA were latinos talk about this issues... all the day concerned about how they look or about their Y-DNA and MTDNA, trying to probe themselves something. could you show me some place like this for latinos? on the other hand this place is full of iberians... also, until iberians put their feet in america there weren't racial conflicts among the native americans.

Sybilla
11-06-11, 14:48
Southern Italians in genetics are extremely close to Greeks and Albanians, but not that much with Turks, becouse Turks are a mixed also with Asians and Arabs, not only with the Greeks. Also there are tracks of Italian genes in the area around Odessa (1 settler on 10 was Italian during the Venecian occupation). Definitely Southern Italy is a South-East European region.
Northern Italians look not different from the rest of Italians but are closer in the look to South-East French.
Hiberians are an other cluster and are an own ethnic group.

Sybilla
11-06-11, 14:55
From my point of view Italians can have differently from Spaniards an Eastern European vibe while Spaniards are definitely Westerns (mostly depends on the geographical position OFC). Italians can have higher cheeks and a bit prolonged eyes, the nose can be easier convex, but many Italians have also a turned up nose. Italians have a thinner skeleton and sometimes have rounding faces. Spaniards usually have streight nose, more robust skeleton and a bigger more masculike jaw that gives them a very Western vibe. Cheeks are usually lower in Spaniards and the women tend to have more "puffy" asses. Spaniards also have a longer face.
Complexion can vary in both the country very much, from fair to light brunette with some rare dark brunette skinned individuals.

Carlitos
11-06-11, 15:04
canek
on the other hand this place is full of iberians... also, until iberians put their feet in america there weren't racial conflicts among the native americans.

Of course that is full of Iberians, a European forum. Of course that is full of Iberians, a European forum.

On the other, who told you, the red beret gorilla, maybe.

loladunas
11-06-11, 15:49
i don't know about any latinamericanPEDIA were latinos talk about this issues... all the day concerned about how they look or about their Y-DNA and MTDNA, trying to probe themselves something. could you show me some place like this for latinos? on the other hand this place is full of iberians... also, until iberians put their feet in america there weren't racial conflicts among the native americans.

the point is this is a forum of history, anthropology...see any general peruvian/chilenean etc forum and you will see several issues of genetic composition, i know because i participate in many forums and in many instances there are passionate debates about who has many/less indian blood. You know that´s a problem in latinamerican society, don´t say its not. I'm not saying in all countries, but is fairly common hear comments on the "cholos", by mixed-race people, people who has that blood which at the same time, they detest, is a very common mindset between many people and I have to say i 'm happy that's not your case and that you're proud of your roots, but your treatment to spaniards is very derogatory, maybe there are unpleasant people between us but you always attacks first, and usually there is too much involvement of spanish people in these topics because you always come deliberately insulting, wich is a shame and quite childish. I have to say that i´m proud of my heritage and all its possible influences, i think that has given us a rich culture and i respect and admire aspects of all cultures, and think about a thing, we all are the result of conquest as well as our culture and you're automatically disregarding a part of yours.

Canek
11-06-11, 22:26
Of course that is full of Iberians, a European forum. Of course that is full of Iberians, a European forum.

On the other, who told you, the red beret gorilla, maybe.

But from the all european nationalities, spaniards are probably the more numerous in this forum... You are always trying to probe that you are "europeans" is pathetic when you are clearly different from the true Europe. :lol:

julia90
11-06-11, 23:45
here's Miss Megale Hellas, her face is a south-eastern kind of beauty
http://www.cavalierifederico.it/FMD_4871.jpg

julia90
11-06-11, 23:47
also laura Pausini is a kind of more robust south-eastern kind of beauty
http://festival.blogosfere.it/images/pausini-thumb.jpg

julia90
11-06-11, 23:49
Zambrotta is a male beauty of south-eastern type
http://www.ilcagliari.net/public/ZAMBROTTA.jpg

his profile and face seem steamed directly from ancient greek marbels....

julia90
11-06-11, 23:56
to Spaniards: Does she look spaniard?
http://spettacoli.tiscali.it/media/09/07/eli_canalis_kika_482.jpg_370468210.jpg

oreo_cookie
12-06-11, 00:01
to Spaniards: Does she look spaniard?
http://spettacoli.tiscali.it/media/09/07/eli_canalis_kika_482.jpg_370468210.jpg



To me she does, she has a Penelope Cruz type look. I'm Portuguese and she could pass as one, too.

Is she Sardinian? Sardinians often have very "Western" features in my opinion even though they're often dark.

julia90
12-06-11, 00:04
she's sardinian.

She was born in Sassari, which it's in north Sardinia, the catalan town Alghero is also in northern sardinia.

oreo_cookie
12-06-11, 00:07
That might be what I'm seeing in her. She also slightly resembles Sandra Bullock.

julia90
12-06-11, 00:07
Materazzi is also Sardinian but he doesn't look "west med", he has strong dinarid elements..
http://3.citynews-napolitoday.stgy.it/pictures/20110205/materazzi.jpeg

julia90
12-06-11, 00:08
indeed they strongly resemble each others
http://www.cinezapping.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/03/Numerology-Sandra-Bullock.jpg

julia90
12-06-11, 00:13
###on Materazzi i'm wrong i checked he's from Lecce, he could be a Messapian, his type could be similar to illirians, who are supposed to be strongly dinaroids.

archaiocapilos
12-06-11, 00:37
488048814884
My favourite type of woman is deffinitely this:heart:

Sybilla
12-06-11, 01:14
^^^^

They are very common in southern Italy, Greece, Bulgaria and in the Balkans. South East Euro typology. ^* Maybe they are common also among white Turks. An other wonderful exemple of South-East Italian type:

4885

She's from Molise, so Central-South East Italy.

loladunas
12-06-11, 01:26
48864887 To my, the most beautiful spanish actress :)

I think she´s the steritotype of a spanish lady too...
I love the look of Laura Paussini.

Sybilla
12-06-11, 01:30
Although I am not able to judge female beauty, I feel more attracted by dark women, especially Eastern Europeans and Italians of the Eastern type. Also some white Turks and some Spanish. They are more "caliente". Who agrees with me??

loladunas
12-06-11, 01:37
OK, so if we take the 5 major countries in Europe.
Select the most attractive faces, what generalisations can be made if any?
This is incredibly unscientific but interesting to see what people perceptions are.

Germany - Heidi Klum
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Ua4-ykEXLQk/TBk20pUHkBI/AAAAAAAABJc/umtpNTjXY_0/s400/1Heidi+Klum.jpg

France - Eva Green
http://www.librarising.com/astrology/celebs/images2/EF/evagreen.jpg

Italy - Monica Bellucci
http://www.hotbollywoodactressphotos.com/Images/monicabellucci.jpg

England - Keira KNightley
http://thecriticalcritics.com/review/wp-content/images/top10/lips/keira_knightley.jpg

Spain - Sara Carbonero
http://top100chicks.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/069-sara-carbonero.jpg


I loveee Eva Green¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡¡ I think she has a lot of mystery, from Britain i like this woman: 48884889 she´s older than them but as Eva, has "something", and she´s a good actress too :)

loladunas
12-06-11, 01:43
Although I am not able to judge female beauty, I feel more attracted by dark women, especially Eastern Europeans and Italians of the Eastern type. Also some white Turks and some Spanish. They are more "caliente". Who agrees with me??

i´am not disposed to judge because i am a woman, but depends, i think my ideal of woman are brunnette too but more like Eva Green or Keira, more delicate, with fine features.

julia90
12-06-11, 23:00
Although I am not able to judge female beauty, I feel more attracted by dark women, especially Eastern Europeans and Italians of the Eastern type. Also some white Turks and some Spanish. They are more "caliente". Who agrees with me??

i prefer too dark features on men; both on men and women makes their face and sight more intense, opposed to more washed faces from northern and central europe with light brown or blondish hair colours.

a man with dark features and strong nose (convex too), it's perceived as more agressive hot; tougt blonde/reddish men have a different appeal, that is more angelic but it's also hot.

julia90
12-06-11, 23:05
488048814884
My favourite type of woman is deffinitely this:heart:

those are types found also in italy, they are one of the main type of south italian women

Carlitos
12-06-11, 23:38
In many cases advertising in Spain used in a manner sympathetic to Italian albeit exaggerated, in this case the word pasta in Spanish also means money in the vernacular.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAgfkXhEebk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSteJ-uiong&NR=1

Riccardo
13-06-11, 01:51
You look like an italian Riccardo but you could be French, Spanish, or German or from netherlands, you have a very neutral look, i mean you can found your type in any country i think... i know many italians here in spain; blondes brunettes and redheads, i know who is italian just see him, but i don´t think it´s by factions italians are usually more stylized than spaniards i think, spaniards are shorter but more robust sometimes people who was living in Italy said that i seem italian too lol; long nose, high thin, more thinner factions... definitely i think that you have the "ideal" of roman beauty.

Oh well, thanks so! =)

Anyhow maybe in other pictures I look more "Italian".

Riccardo
13-06-11, 01:52
In many cases advertising in Spain used in a manner sympathetic to Italian albeit exaggerated, in this case the word pasta in Spanish also means money in the vernacular.




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAgfkXhEebk&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSteJ-uiong&NR=1

What is the opinion about Italian beauty in Spain? Do you like Italian girls? Of course you can find beautiful and ugly girls everywhere...But you know what I mean! =)

oreo_cookie
13-06-11, 01:57
those are types found also in italy, they are one of the main type of south italian women

I tried posting pictures that were examples of this type but they are too large to appear as attachments

Francesca Chillemi; http://vnexpress.net/Files/Subject/3B/A0/61/69/8.jpg
Alessia Buetto (Miss Sicily 2007); http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3381/3655436200_dda0d91972.jpg
Agata Alonzo; http://locali.data.kataweb.it/kpmimages/kpm3/gloc/infografica/2009/06/04/jpg_1645596.jpg


Greek examples of this type
Maria Menounos; http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7fkdS21tUmY/TJ7-iXHDp0I/AAAAAAAACz0/B39NWE6rIUA/s1600/Maria_Menounos_photo_3.jpg
Elena Paparizou; http://www.tombraider4u.com/elena-paparizou.jpg

Carlitos
13-06-11, 02:27
Riccardo
¿Cuál es la opinión de la belleza italiana en España? ¿Te gustan las chicas italianas? Por supuesto, usted puede encontrar chicas guapas y feas en todas partes ... Pero ya sabes lo que quiero decir! =)

In Spain, like all things Italian, movies, cooking, history, art, beauty of its women and men, even the Spanish believe they understand the Italian language, it is not, but I believe I speak in third person about my country, because just as I love, I'm surprised. I love Albano, Albano and Romina Power, Rafaela Carrá and Richi e Poveri and many more. Italina girls are beautiful and probably the finest in Europe, I know, only good things I can think of Italy.

I have family in Italy, some cousins ​​of my mother, by her father, the truth is that Italian look and speak Spanish with an Italian accent, has a daughter redhead very beautiful, very quiet, I normally set in the Italian girls traveling to Spain and are very quiet, cool and distant, inaccessible take an attitude, I think men who take a different attitude, but Italian men are handsome but they are not my type.

oreo_cookie
13-06-11, 03:05
My mother always says the Spanish "speak Portuguese with a weird accent" but realistically since Latin came from Italy, we all (Spanish, Portuguese, French, Italians) speak improper Latin. :grin:

Riccardo
13-06-11, 19:16
In Spain, like all things Italian, movies, cooking, history, art, beauty of its women and men, even the Spanish believe they understand the Italian language, it is not, but I believe I speak in third person about my country, because just as I love, I'm surprised. I love Albano, Albano and Romina Power, Rafaela Carrá and Richi e Poveri and many more. Italina girls are beautiful and probably the finest in Europe, I know, only good things I can think of Italy.

I have family in Italy, some cousins ​​of my mother, by her father, the truth is that Italian look and speak Spanish with an Italian accent, has a daughter redhead very beautiful, very quiet, I normally set in the Italian girls traveling to Spain and are very quiet, cool and distant, inaccessible take an attitude, I think men who take a different attitude, but Italian men are handsome but they are not my type.

I'm glad that you have this opinion about Italy and Italians. I always said that there's a special feeling beetween Italy and Spain! ;)

Carlitos
13-06-11, 20:25
^^

Yes I agree, perhaps Italy has no complexes with other European countries of Spain, I refer to statements from the French branch of government accusations weeks after Germany, France dared to say he doubted the sanitary conditions of Spanish agricultural production, how awful!, Spanish and Andalusian agriculture are among the most advanced in Europe, how France said that?, thought perhaps that in this way would benefit the economy, when the opposite happens if we speak of EU where the damage to one member affects the whole community, it is shameful, something he never would Italy to Spain, only talk to harm a member.

Riccardo
13-06-11, 23:17
^^

Yes I agree, perhaps Italy has no complexes with other European countries of Spain, I refer to statements from the French branch of government accusations weeks after Germany, France dared to say he doubted the sanitary conditions of Spanish agricultural production, how awful!, Spanish and Andalusian agriculture are among the most advanced in Europe, how France said that?, thought perhaps that in this way would benefit the economy, when the opposite happens if we speak of EU where the damage to one member affects the whole community, it is shameful, something he never would Italy to Spain, only talk to harm a member.

We are "twin" countries...Both Latin, with the same lifestyle and the same joy of life...We Italians have affinities with France and Greece (I love Greece) too, but one isn't totally Mediterranean (yes ok, but not "Southern"), and the other isn't Latin...That's why there's a special relationship beetween Italian and Spanish people...I don't see many differences...Expecially culturally we are really close! I hope to manage to come back soon..I always had great times there! =)

oreo_cookie
13-06-11, 23:45
We are "twin" countries...Both Latin, with the same lifestyle and the same joy of life...We Italians have affinities with France and Greece (I love Greece) too, but one isn't totally Mediterranean (yes ok, but not "Southern"), and the other isn't Latin...That's why there's a special relationship beetween Italian and Spanish people...I don't see many differences...Expecially culturally we are really close! I hope to manage to come back soon..I always had great times there! =)

What part of Italy are you from?

I agree with your post.. I'd definitely say that the Spanish are "twin" countries first and foremost with Portugal, however.

Riccardo
14-06-11, 00:09
What part of Italy are you from?

I agree with your post.. I'd definitely say that the Spanish are "twin" countries first and foremost with Portugal, however.

Roma! ;)

Well, maybe Portugal is more similar, but both Italy and Spain are "projected" one toward the other! =)

oreo_cookie
14-06-11, 00:16
Portugal is by far more culturally similar to Spain than any other country. I'm Portuguese American and every time I've met someone from Spain it's like they're family.. but really we're all pretty close when you think about it, all Catholic and all speak similar languages. :)

I think though that there is still a Greek character to the mindset and culture of some southern regions (like Calabria and Sicily) and I know far southern Italians feel close to Greece, but being from Rome there's probably less of a Greek legacy than in say, Calabria. Is this correct?

julia90
14-06-11, 00:23
I tried posting pictures that were examples of this type but they are too large to appear as attachments

Francesca Chillemi; http://vnexpress.net/Files/Subject/3B/A0/61/69/8.jpg
Alessia Buetto (Miss Sicily 2007); http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3381/3655436200_dda0d91972.jpg
Agata Alonzo; http://locali.data.kataweb.it/kpmimages/kpm3/gloc/infografica/2009/06/04/jpg_1645596.jpg


Greek examples of this type
Maria Menounos; http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_7fkdS21tUmY/TJ7-iXHDp0I/AAAAAAAACz0/B39NWE6rIUA/s1600/Maria_Menounos_photo_3.jpg
Elena Paparizou; http://www.tombraider4u.com/elena-paparizou.jpg

The one in the Middle Buetto, is what charachterize the most the look of southern italian women, also the other are very representative

Riccardo
14-06-11, 00:36
Portugal is by far more culturally similar to Spain than any other country. I'm Portuguese American and every time I've met someone from Spain it's like they're family.. but really we're all pretty close when you think about it, all Catholic and all speak similar languages. :)

I think though that there is still a Greek character to the mindset and culture of some southern regions (like Calabria and Sicily) and I know far southern Italians feel close to Greece, but being from Rome there's probably less of a Greek legacy than in say, Calabria. Is this correct?

I think yes! But as I said before, we have a great link with Greeks too, the only difference is that they aren't "latin". Anyhow, I love Greece, I have a lot of friends there and I really admire them for their history and their tradition. They're a great people and yes, we feel so close. This doesn't mean that we can't feel close with Spain too. ;)
About Portugal, maybe we are too distant to have direct connection, but I think we are all similar! =)

oreo_cookie
14-06-11, 00:44
The one in the Middle Buetto, is what charachterize the most the look of southern italian women, also the other are very representative

I've seen Bulgarians with a similar look to her too.

Carlitos
14-06-11, 23:12
I understand that from a distance is difficult to perceive the feeling that exists between Spain and Italy, but it is, there is great affinity between the Spanish and Italians, for me Rafaela Carr is like my family, I do not happen to a French artist English, or elsewhere in Europe, because Italy is well known in Spain.

oreo_cookie
14-06-11, 23:41
I have a question for those of you who speak either Italian or Spanish.. is it easier to understand French, or Romanian? Written and spoken. Of the two I have heard Romanian pronunciation is closer, but Romanian has a lot of Slavic influenced vocabulary.

Carlitos
14-06-11, 23:49
Honestly for the Spanish Romania was a country that was far, did not know anything about Romania, suddenly we were invaded by hundreds of thousands of Romanians without knowing where they came from, had never before heard Romanian, now I've heard and some single word sounds familiar, but nothing else, I studied French in school, but I do not remember anything before become fashionable English in Spain was the French foreign language most studied.

loladunas
15-06-11, 01:00
I have a question for those of you who speak either Italian or Spanish.. is it easier to understand French, or Romanian? Written and spoken. Of the two I have heard Romanian pronunciation is closer, but Romanian has a lot of Slavic influenced vocabulary.

both are difficult to understand, but to me french is easier to read, more understandable, but when i heard it, i can´t understand a word. On the other hand, i have the influence of the catalan, well a dialect from catalan and maybe to me it´s easier to understand the other latin languages. There are many words that are the same in catalan and italian (porta, parlar, finesta , sembrar etc) and different in spanish (puerta, hablar, ventana, parecer) and there are words that have a root more simillar to french or italian than in spanish too. Romanian is more like italian to me, i think is easier to heard and understand than french but french is easier to read.

Riccardo
15-06-11, 01:28
I understand that from a distance is difficult to perceive the feeling that exists between Spain and Italy, but it is, there is great affinity between the Spanish and Italians, for me Rafaela Carr is like my family, I do not happen to a French artist English, or elsewhere in Europe, because Italy is well known in Spain.

Yeah...My favourite music band is Spanish (El Canto del Loco), Spain has the most similar cousine compared to Italy, Spain has the most similar culture, weather, traditions, etc. too.
When an Italian meets a Spanish they feel comfortable in most cases, you don't feel so much difference. It's difficult to explain, but we're two nations "hermanas" for many reasons. There's a great relationship of respect and admiration.



I have a question for those of you who speak either Italian or Spanish.. is it easier to understand French, or Romanian? Written and spoken. Of the two I have heard Romanian pronunciation is closer, but Romanian has a lot of Slavic influenced vocabulary.

I'm Italian mothertongue and I speak Spanish fluently. I think they're the most similar languages. Maybe French is more similar than Romanian to Italian, but I don't understand so much both. Maybe Romanian pronunciation is closer to Italian, but I'm accustomed to hear French more.

oreo_cookie
15-06-11, 01:29
My impression is that Spanish (Castilian), Italian, and to a lesser extent Romanian all sound similar.
Portuguese and French sound similar sometimes.

But lexically/in terms of vocabulary, Italian and French have a lot of similar words, and Spanish and Portuguese do too (written Spanish and Portuguese are remarkably close).

Riccardo
15-06-11, 01:31
My impression is that Spanish (Castilian), Italian, and to a lesser extent Romanian all sound similar.
Portuguese and French sound similar sometimes.

But lexically/in terms of vocabulary, Italian and French have a lot of similar words, and Spanish and Portuguese do too (written Spanish and Portuguese are remarkably close).

Yes, it is 100% right what you expalined.

affice
16-06-11, 02:47
Very intereting !


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julia90
18-06-11, 02:09
Costantino Vitagliano

a dinarid-med look common also in the balkans
http://www.direttanews.it/wp-content/uploads/vit5.jpg
http://www.express-news.it/wp-content/uploads//2009/09/costantino-vitagliano.jpg

julia90
18-06-11, 02:17
this is an off-topyc.. but these days i was wondering... does kate middleton's brother look south european, mediterranean? to me yes!!!

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/19600000/kate-s-brother-prince-william-19664170-306-591.jpg
http://www.news-world.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/James-Middleton-Kate-brother-at-royal-wedding-Kate-William.jpg
he's darker than me!!!, he seems a north african too and could pass

is his family down the line jewish?

Carlitos
18-06-11, 07:40
The Spanish spoken does not sound like any other language of Latin origin, but the speech, the pronunciation of Modern Greek and Spanish are the closest, although they are of different origin, Spanish does not have the musicality or the strong emphasis the other languages ​​of Latin origin, is linear and modern Greek when he pronounces a word in Spanish as Spanish does.

julia90
19-06-11, 23:37
two italian singers
http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk444/adeleon87/ZeroAssoluto.jpg
http://www.calabriaonline.com/content/admin/uploads//zeroassoluto.jpg

julia90
19-06-11, 23:42
briatore's wife
http://images.askmen.com/photos/elisabetta-gregoraci/72417.jpg

Carlitos
20-06-11, 00:19
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5ZaxnOfNOVs/Sf3a7moCrUI/AAAAAAAAAG8/gYxGJMzkr7A/s400/CoGZYu7glM_laura.jpg

Laura Sanchez, Andalusian model and actrees Atlantic look and Grecian nose, I do not know, lips transported to Europe from the Neolithic, although it is perhaps reminiscent protoatlántica Iberian Mediterranean.

Radek
20-06-11, 00:19
this is an off-topyc.. but these days i was wondering... does kate middleton's brother look south european, mediterranean? to me yes!!!

http://images4.fanpop.com/image/photos/19600000/kate-s-brother-prince-william-19664170-306-591.jpg
http://www.news-world.us/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/James-Middleton-Kate-brother-at-royal-wedding-Kate-William.jpg
he's darker than me!!!, he seems a north african too and could pass

is his family down the line jewish?


A lot of british people look pseudo -south european, its mainly the fact that atlantids and paleoatlantids are much more common there than anywhere else in northern europe. Most Native brits didnt look like nowadays northern euros.

Radek
20-06-11, 00:32
Really? =)

It's strange because you're the first one to say that! They always say to me that I'm really Mediterranean!

Ricardo you look Iberian or southern euro to me, you could easily pass for some Fernando "niño" torres type.

You look mediterranean imo.

Radek
20-06-11, 00:35
^^

All three are Mediterranean countries, but that's what I say, is like trying to compare Ireland with Germans and Swedes. Although phenotypes are shared more or less, the Italians are different from Spanish or Greek, Chassis finish the Italians is more refined, but I think that when a Greek or Spanish are cute can overcome the handsomest of the Italians.

Irish and British people look very different than continental germanics and Scandinavians.

Carlitos
20-06-11, 01:05
Irish and British people look very different than continental germanics and Scandinavians.

The same happens in the Mediterranean countries, each country has its own look.

julia90
20-06-11, 01:20
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5ZaxnOfNOVs/Sf3a7moCrUI/AAAAAAAAAG8/gYxGJMzkr7A/s400/CoGZYu7glM_laura.jpg

Laura Sanchez, Andalusian model and actrees Atlantic look and Grecian nose, I do not know, lips transported to Europe from the Neolithic, although it is perhaps reminiscent protoatlántica Iberian Mediterranean.

the nose could be convex and massive as you say, the coloring pigmentation is light

julia90
20-06-11, 01:21
A lot of british people look pseudo -south european, its mainly the fact that atlantids and paleoatlantids are much more common there than anywhere else in northern europe. Most Native brits didnt look like nowadays northern euros.

but, look at the last photo, he has the skin color associated in italy with north african blood.
i think middleton family has some drop of north african genes..

it's more the color of the skin plus his face structure that strikes as north african.

he could pass in italy but we would think he's some sort of sicilian or lampedusan with some north african ancestor

http://www.dotspress.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/james-middleton-300x200.jpg
http://images.mirror.co.uk/upl/m4/apr2011/5/2/image-1-for-family-members-of-kate-and-william-arrive-at-the-royal-wedding-gallery-907504571.jpg

compare with a sicilian north african looking italian from Big Brother
http://blog.immense-serie.com/wp-content/gallery/grandefratello10/CarmenAndolina.jpg

in this photo he seems less north african, but southern european
http://img2.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/110425/James-Middleton-brother_301.jpg

Carlitos
20-06-11, 01:45
Reminds me of a Berber from the Atlas, now as we have so many immigrants in Spain, I thought.

julia90
20-06-11, 01:56
there are rumors there is jewish blood along the line.. perhaps not european jewish who are european in look or at least middle eastern, north african jewish maybe
http://www.jewornotjew.com/profile.jsp?ID=307

Carlitos
20-06-11, 02:10
Those big teeth with this form are Moors. The girl seems more Arabic and the guy Berber.

oreo_cookie
20-06-11, 02:37
The girl looks Egyptian or Libyan.

Sybilla
20-06-11, 14:19
Without studiying nor French nor Romanian, maybe Romanian is a bit easier, but Italian and French lexicoons are more similar than Italia and Romanian. Numbers from 1 to 10 in Italian and in Romanian: (ITA) uno, due, tre, quattro, cinque, sei, sette, otto, nove, dieci; (ROM) unu, doi, trei, patru, cinci, shase, shapte, opt, noua, seche. Some phrases in Romanian than any Italian would understand without reading the English translation here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y3v1kJHSLRo&feature=related

Vallicanus
20-06-11, 17:53
A lot of british people look pseudo -south european, its mainly the fact that atlantids and paleoatlantids are much more common there than anywhere else in northern europe. Most Native brits didnt look like nowadays northern euros.

Middleton looked very dark-skinned compared to the Royal Family at his sister's wedding.:confused2:

Carlitos
21-06-11, 22:20
At the wedding the Swedish press confused Rania of Jordan with Kate.

julia90
22-06-11, 00:20
a famous tv presentatrice
again almond shaped eyes and a rather squared face, traits associated with south-eastern girls
http://www.raiuno.rai.it/Static/immagine/balivo_estate_bio.jpg

julia90
22-06-11, 00:22
gigi d'alessio has also almond shaped eyes, with a lesser mediteranean pigment and facial structure instead.
http://www.fullsong.it/uploads/News/gigi_d_alessio.jpg

julia90
22-06-11, 00:25
famous singer with that kind of eyes and face, very south eastern
http://www.lasestina.unimi.it/lasestina/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/2011/02/cristinadavena.jpg
http://www.musicroom.it/img/cristina_d_avena.jpg

julia90
22-06-11, 00:27
almond shaped, dinarid structure
http://www.dajeroma.com/images/joomleague/players/materazzi.jpg
http://img.interia.pl/sport/nimg/Marco_Materazzi_przyznaje_1110675.jpg

julia90
22-06-11, 00:30
this is a very balkanian face, very illyrian, dinarid, could pass as albanian, and from litoral balkanic coast untill slovenia.
tys type it's found occasionally also in italy
http://affaritaliani.libero.it/static/upl/gio/0000/giovannigalli.jpg
http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmssezioni/politica/200903images/galli02G.jpg
http://tmw-storage.tccstatic.com/storage/img_notizie/thumb/1287491853e948f7ee8a576425f51bf9e0c8a6cb1012817975 38.jpeg

Cambrius (The Red)
22-06-11, 18:27
N. Italians are clearly closer to Iberians (Spaniards and Portuguese). That said, in percentage terms, Iberians are majority "Atlantid" and Western European in appearance. N. Italians look much more W. European than S. Italians, but also have minor Balkanite characteristics.

Carlitos
22-06-11, 23:53
http://www.formulatv.com/images/noticias/9500/9541/1.jpg
Víctor Sevilla.

http://listas.rpp.com.pe/system/items/000/043/470/medium/C_2_maincontent_63012_mediumimage.gif?1302105911
Miguel Ángel Silvestre.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2195/2480753080_ea10234a08.jpg
Juan José Ballesta.



Perhaps in this small representation of Spanish may be the Westernization of the West Spanish appearance, may appear Silvestre Lebanese do not know, but I see you all very proto.

Jacktheripper
23-06-11, 13:55
Vanessa Incontrada
has typical features of spaniards, slim face, oblong face, a straight more thin nose
http://xoomer.virgilio.it/vanessaincontrada/loghi/vanessahome.jpg

Natalia Estrada
is spaniard but could well pass in italy and in the balkans instead
more of a squared face
http://www.sanvoyage.com/wp-content/themes/mimbo2.2/images/2009/03/natalia-estrada.jpg


Fernando Alonso
very typical typology of mediterranean like spaniards, and quintessential spaniard
http://www.notizieitaliane.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/AlonsoFerrari4.jpg

Dani Pedrosa
could pass as balkanian too
http://www.eracemotorblog.it/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/daniel-pedrosa.jpg
http://www.topnotizie.it/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Dani-Pedrosa.jpg




However generically speaking spaniards have less dinaroid tendencies and less convex noses than italians or balkanians
types like him could never be spaniards (because of the dinarid tendencies)
http://multimedia.blogosfere.it/d/7246-2/gianluigi-buffon-italia.jpg
http://www.agenziagrt.it/wp-content/contenuti/Buffon-Gianluigi-001.jpg

even less Chiellini
his nose and profile strats to be common in italy and you can find it in the balkans and south east europe
http://testedicalcio.blogosfere.it/images/chiellini%20g.jpg


I think you have several issues from my point of view. Probably you fell in love with some Greek or Albanian or Eastern European and you like to claim all Italians look albanians or east med in Italy.
Almost all the people you post can be found in all Europe, and without comparative pics of crowds makes no sense to keep on claiming something you have no clue about.
It seems like you enjoy to be classified as east med or even further east , when in reality the only overlap is between S.Italy and Greece that is 1\3 of Italy.
The greek looking people you post are almost all S.Italians, just to let you know.
N.Italians and C.Italians don't look like Iberians for a bigger dinarid component who is everywhere in central Europe too, not only in Albania and Greece, which the latter is mostly alpine med.
I think you need to clear a bit your thinkings, and stop make all Italians what you would like them to be.
P.s
Chiellini had his nose broken more than once. Inform yourself.

Jacktheripper
23-06-11, 14:02
this is a very balkanian face, very illyrian, dinarid, could pass as albanian, and from litoral balkanic coast untill slovenia.
tys type it's found occasionally also in italy
http://affaritaliani.libero.it/static/upl/gio/0000/giovannigalli.jpg
http://www.lastampa.it/redazione/cmssezioni/politica/200903images/galli02G.jpg
http://tmw-storage.tccstatic.com/storage/img_notizie/thumb/1287491853e948f7ee8a576425f51bf9e0c8a6cb1012817975 38.jpeg

Rofl
Galli is Italian it is not that you can find him "occasionally", he reminds me of this actor and also other people realized that.
4901
I don't know what is your problem, but Italians don't look nor east med nor west med, they look central med, surely they don't look like Levantines as you like to claim.
If you are dark be happy but don't bring all the people of Italy with you claiming phenotypic links with other people when you have not the knowledge to do it.

julia90
23-06-11, 14:52
i think dempsey could pass well as an italian.
I don't want to offend no one, but i think i'm quite expert about genetics

julia90
23-06-11, 15:05
miguel angel silvestre resembles raul bova
http://www.windoweb.it/guida/spettacolo/spettacolo_foto/raul_bova1.jpg

Cambrius (The Red)
23-06-11, 23:03
The essential difference between southern Italians / central Italians and Iberians is that the latter are more paleolithic. The latest autosomal (full heredity - determines phenotype) research shows quite clearly that Near-Eastern affinities are substantially higher for Italians in the central and southern regions vis-a-vis the majority of Spaniards and Portuguese. This doesn't necessarily mean that if you are southern or central Italian you look Levantine or southern Greek, but there does exist a stronger Near-Eastern phenotypic affinity in the south and central regions of Italy.

Cambrius (The Red)
23-06-11, 23:09
Dempsey can easily pass as mainstream in Spain or Portugal. He's very Atlantic in appearance, the main phenotype in Iberia.

Jacktheripper
24-06-11, 01:14
Yes italians have a bigger neolithic component, on the other hand Iberians have more african admixture- even more than Sicilians for the Portuguese and almost the same for Spaniards-, but that doesn't mean you look N.Africans of course but that there is a stronger NorthAfrican phenotypic affinity.
It's obvious, genetic doesn't work for Italy only i think.

I agree about Dempsey.They all look like him in Iberia. It is enough to take a look at the stadiums or the streets.
Guardiola, Xavi, Villa, Busquets are all his copycats.
Not.

Carlitos
24-06-11, 03:23
Yes italians have a bigger neolithic component, on the other hand Iberians have more african admixture- even more than Sicilians for the Portuguese and almost the same for Spaniards-, but that doesn't mean you look N.Africans of course but that there is a stronger NorthAfrican phenotypic affinity.
It's obvious, genetic doesn't work for Italy only i think.

I agree about Dempsey.They all look like him in Iberia. It is enough to take a look at the stadiums or the streets.
Guardiola, Xavi, Villa, Busquets are all his copycats.
Not.


Then before the mixture to which you refer, as were the phenotypes of the Iberians?

Cambrius (The Red)
24-06-11, 21:58
[QUOTE=Jacktheripper;373558]Yes italians have a bigger neolithic component, on the other hand Iberians have more african admixture- even more than Sicilians for the Portuguese and almost the same for Spaniards-, but that doesn't mean you look N.Africans of course but that there is a stronger NorthAfrican phenotypic affinity.
It's obvious, genetic doesn't work for Italy only i think.

That's somewhat correct for Y-DNA haplogroup results, which are only useful for identifying ancient population migration inputs. However, autosomal DNA determines phenotype and all test findings for Spaniards and Portuguese show minor levels of N. African ancestry (Spaniards record 2-3% and Portuguese ~5%). Moreover, the Atlantic component is very high for both groups. Also, N. European affinities are about 38% for Spaniards and 36-37% for Portuguese. See the latest Polako and DODECAD figures.

Cambrius (The Red)
24-06-11, 21:59
I agree about Dempsey.They all look like him in Iberia. It is enough to take a look at the stadiums or the streets.
Guardiola, Xavi, Villa, Busquets are all his copycats.
Not.[/QUOTE]

Not?

Cambrius (The Red)
25-06-11, 00:33
Yes italians have a bigger neolithic component, on the other hand Iberians have more african admixture- even more than Sicilians for the Portuguese and almost the same for Spaniards-, but that doesn't mean you look N.Africans of course but that there is a stronger NorthAfrican phenotypic affinity.
It's obvious, genetic doesn't work for Italy only i think.

I agree about Dempsey.They all look like him in Iberia. It is enough to take a look at the stadiums or the streets.
Guardiola, Xavi, Villa, Busquets are all his copycats.
Not.

I see you are attempting to be funny. Most of your names are not relevant examples.

Cambrius (The Red)
25-06-11, 00:42
Dempsey's phenotype is hardly atypical in Spain or Portugal. There is a common thread between Atlantic Facade peoples.

Carlitos
25-06-11, 01:33
Wanting to continually relate to Spain or Portugal to North Africa, it seems an exercise in pure style of the nineteenth century central European fascist, had been a Frenchman would understand, but it is surprising that an Italian attempt to dispose of Spain thus .

Think my friend to tell a Spanish that is an offense and not offended by racist issues but rather because it is an attack against one of the oldest countries in Europe with a vast history and although we have had contact with different ethnic or Spain cultures attribute to a blend with North Africa is simply an attempt of provocation and a lie as big as a piano is to take to Spain and their idiosyncrasies, are perhaps Europe's plans to sell Spain to Islam.

Knovas
25-06-11, 16:42
It's obvious that Atlantic genetics are not noise for Iberians, but if somebody still doubt it, here is the last spreadsheet from Eurogenes: https://spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=tJLqbDzmPYCFL1L4pX1tuPw&authkey=COi9zZII#gid=0

This are Intra-European analysis for ALL Europeans joining the project right now. Make your conlusions.

About the African affinity, it's true that something is usually detected, but at very low frequencies and not in all cases. You are free to think what you want, but taking Iberians as Africans is quite stupid.

iapetoc
25-06-11, 17:19
Wanting to continually relate to Spain or Portugal to North Africa, it seems an exercise in pure style of the nineteenth century central European fascist, had been a Frenchman would understand, but it is surprising that an Italian attempt to dispose of Spain thus .

Think my friend to tell a Spanish that is an offense and not offended by racist issues but rather because it is an attack against one of the oldest countries in Europe with a vast history and although we have had contact with different ethnic or Spain cultures attribute to a blend with North Africa is simply an attempt of provocation and a lie as big as a piano is to take to Spain and their idiosyncrasies, are perhaps Europe's plans to sell Spain to Islam.


nope
I hear about a % of Brazilians moved to portugal
probably same with Latino-Americans
Spain is not Afro-arabic is Indian American

Look at lionel messi
and ronaldo (cristiiano??)

http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/sports/photos/2009/06/10/ronaldo-ronaldinhox060701ge.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/FIFAconfederationscup/News/story/2009/06/10/sp-confed-ronaldo-ronaldinho.html&usg=__6uVrZukxrcl9HGHirehqksKPdzQ=&h=329&w=584&sz=35&hl=el&start=24&zoom=1&tbnid=TsD7RE-pLS7WAM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=178&ei=uPwFTpHFBZSyhAeghMGUDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dronaldo%2Bbrazil%26hl%3Del%26biw%3D11 52%26bih%3D743%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=474&page=2&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:24&tx=170&ty=39&biw=1152&bih=743http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/sports/photos/2009/06/10/ronaldo-ronaldinhox060701ge.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/FIFAconfederationscup/News/story/2009/06/10/sp-confed-ronaldo-ronaldinho.html&usg=__6uVrZukxrcl9HGHirehqksKPdzQ=&h=329&w=584&sz=35&hl=el&start=24&zoom=1&tbnid=TsD7RE-pLS7WAM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=178&ei=uPwFTpHFBZSyhAeghMGUDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dronaldo%2Bbrazil%26hl%3Del%26biw%3D11 52%26bih%3D743%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=474&page=2&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:24&tx=170&ty=39&biw=1152&bih=743http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=http://www.cbc.ca/gfx/images/sports/photos/2009/06/10/ronaldo-ronaldinhox060701ge.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/FIFAconfederationscup/News/story/2009/06/10/sp-confed-ronaldo-ronaldinho.html&usg=__6uVrZukxrcl9HGHirehqksKPdzQ=&h=329&w=584&sz=35&hl=el&start=24&zoom=1&tbnid=TsD7RE-pLS7WAM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=178&ei=uPwFTpHFBZSyhAeghMGUDQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dronaldo%2Bbrazil%26hl%3Del%26biw%3D11 52%26bih%3D743%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=rc&dur=474&page=2&ndsp=26&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:24&tx=170&ty=39&biw=1152&bih=743http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/p1_ronaldo_0117.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sportige.com/new-galacticos/&usg=__7GOVLyVKxmO259wyOu1JiqVgw9U=&h=369&w=300&sz=41&hl=el&start=51&zoom=1&tbnid=k_09SI4qHfY8aM:&tbnh=134&tbnw=112&ei=8_0FToenLcqKhQfSmaG0DQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dronaldo%26hl%3Del%26sa%3DG%26biw%3D11 52%26bih%3D743%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=492&vpy=210&dur=5801&hovh=249&hovw=202&tx=74&ty=163&page=3&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:51&biw=1152&bih=743http://www.google.gr/imgres?imgurl=http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/p1_ronaldo_0117.jpg&imgrefurl=http://sportige.com/new-galacticos/&usg=__7GOVLyVKxmO259wyOu1JiqVgw9U=&h=369&w=300&sz=41&hl=el&start=51&zoom=1&tbnid=k_09SI4qHfY8aM:&tbnh=134&tbnw=112&ei=8_0FToenLcqKhQfSmaG0DQ&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dronaldo%26hl%3Del%26sa%3DG%26biw%3D11 52%26bih%3D743%26gbv%3D2%26tbm%3Disch&itbs=1&iact=hc&vpx=492&vpy=210&dur=5801&hovh=249&hovw=202&tx=74&ty=163&page=3&ndsp=28&ved=1t:429,r:10,s:51&biw=1152&bih=743
http://sportige.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/p1_ronaldo_0117.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/79/Ronaldinho_11feb2007.jpg


typical spain and portoquese :grin:

while french look like more Netherlands
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c8/%C3%89ric_Abidal_-_001.jpg


And germans more Russians

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a0/Mesut_%C3%96zil.jpg



I think he is chinese don't you agree?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Capdevila.jpg

(just kidding)


well the most typical Italian NApolitano

I Think an Italian God FROM NAPOLI


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/38/Maradona-212369675_3c30adbbb4_o.jpg

At least he has his own temple

Carlitos
26-06-11, 08:56
At this rate it will, the Iberians will cease to exist, there is even a small town in Catalonia that has 103 different ethnic groups and in the Catalan public pools have hired social mediators to intercede when a Muslim or a Serb splashed when a Romanian child asks a child to another Bolivian ahogadilla I have not seen most ridiculous thing that these mediators in addition to public pools and 10 mediators only one is Spanish, this is the last straw.

Turning to another subject, I suspect that Europe will sell Spain to Islam, they are tightening immigration laws and deportations in many European countries, it is likely that the plan is that all Muslim immigrants currently living in Europe to be sent to Spain to added to the already existing few decades have increased in number to have power and decision making Spain a country like Egypt, Lebanon etc. Why Europe will deliver Spain to Islam? Have to know that as these plans do not go well, we have experience in the field, is Spain's tribute to Islam so that you have the rich Europe hundreds of years of peace?

PS: It makes me round the head, The Betrayal of Europe to Spain handing it to Islam.

iapetoc
26-06-11, 11:14
At this rate it will, the Iberians will cease to exist, there is even a small town in Catalonia that has 103 different ethnic groups and in the Catalan public pools have hired social mediators to intercede when a Muslim or a Serb splashed when a Romanian child asks a child to another Bolivian ahogadilla I have not seen most ridiculous thing that these mediators in addition to public pools and 10 mediators only one is Spanish, this is the last straw.

Turning to another subject, I suspect that Europe will sell Spain to Islam, they are tightening immigration laws and deportations in many European countries, it is likely that the plan is that all Muslim immigrants currently living in Europe to be sent to Spain to added to the already existing few decades have increased in number to have power and decision making Spain a country like Egypt, Lebanon etc. Why Europe will deliver Spain to Islam? Have to know that as these plans do not go well, we have experience in the field, is Spain's tribute to Islam so that you have the rich Europe hundreds of years of peace?

PS: It makes me round the head, The Betrayal of Europe to Spain handing it to Islam.

I dont know

in 20 years greece change a lot after the Euro
I believe that if we leave europe our problems will solved,
probably all these will leave to rich north
I hear about numbers like 40% in Netherlands but is another thread,

I believe in few years the only non muslim areas will be south America

Carlitos
26-06-11, 19:25
^^
Sometimes I think so.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 00:13
Carlitos, sorry if this bothers you, but you're not being objective. There is a small genetic heritage of northern Africa origin between us, the Spaniards (I'm from Galicia, NW Spain). What is the problem with it? For me, none. Approximately 5% of the Spanish population has haplogroup E1b1b1b1 (E-M81). It is most common in the west of the Iberian Peninsula. North African origin is uncontested.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

As for the question, as spanish men who has visited Italy a lot of times (7 times I think it's a big number) I can say that there is an Italian tupical who is neither Greek nor Spanish, but rather blend of Italian and Central Europe. Examples would be Valentino Rossi, Stefano Casiraghi (also his son Andrea) or Piero Righetto (Spanish Big Brother).

Piero Righetto
http://img64.imageshack.us/img64/9307/piero.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/64/piero.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

edao
28-06-11, 09:58
Carlitos, sorry if this bothers you, but you're not being objective. There is a small genetic heritage of northern Africa origin between us, the Spaniards (I'm from Galicia, NW Spain). What is the problem with it? For me, none.

Well said! Its obvious if you border up to another country there will inevitably be some genetic overlap. Everybody wants to be someone else, the northern europeans wants to look darker more tanned like southern europeans. The southern europeans want to be more fair, to prove they are blue eyed with blonde haired.:25:

<JOKE>By the way how much do you think Europe will get for selling Spain to Islam, would it be enough to cover the Greek debt?:grin:</JOKE>

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 12:47
As mentioned previously, the only DNA percentages that count phenotypically are AUTOSOMAL. Haplogroups only provide ancient migration clues. North African autosomal frequencies for Spaniards and Portuguese are very low, 2-3% for the former and ~5% for the latter. Spaniards and Portuguese autosomally cluster primarily with the French and Northern Italians (see the ongoing DODECAD and Eurogenes research) and are not close at all to North Africans. Even predominantly eastern Mediterranean populations such as Greeks and Southern Italians do not cluster with N. Africans.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 15:40
Well said! Its obvious if you border up to another country there will inevitably be some genetic overlap. Everybody wants to be someone else, the northern europeans wants to look darker more tanned like southern europeans. The southern europeans want to be more fair, to prove they are blue eyed with blonde haired.:25:

<JOKE>By the way how much do you think Europe will get for selling Spain to Islam, would it be enough to cover the Greek debt?:grin:</JOKE>

For some of my compatriots to have Berber heritage is something terrible. Personally racial debate does not interest me. For me it is much more important education than race. Example, Japan is a wonderful country, I like much more than England (sorry if this will cause disappointment).
On the subject of the haplogroups, is scientifically proven that some of the Spanish population has a North African origin, how could it be otherwise after 8 centuries of Muslim presence in Spain as chiefs of the territory?
Naturally some of my countrymen can not stand and try to deny it, but scientific proof is definitive.


E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), formerly E1b1b1b, E3b1b, and E3b2, is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghreb), dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago. This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximately 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt. Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozabite_people), Middle Atlas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Atlas), Kabyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people) and other Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) marker".

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), where unlike in the rest of Europe it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 10% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria). The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), ranging from 18% (8/45) to 41% (23/56).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands) with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife) (10.68%), Gran Canaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Canaria) (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerteventura) (13.33%).

The pasiegos are a group with a differentiated culture in northern Spain. It was suspected that they were descendants of Muslim people who were given a territory in a sparsely populated valley in Cantabria (Northern Spain). The genetic study has confirmed that.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 15:51
Genetic research shows that most E-M81 found in Iberia did not result from Muslim invasions but from Mesolithic and Neolithic migrations. The Muslim occupation force (they were not settlers like the Celtic and Germanic tribes) in Iberia was quite minor as was its contribution to the Iberian genome.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 15:52
Well said! Its obvious if you border up to another country there will inevitably be some genetic overlap. Everybody wants to be someone else, the northern europeans wants to look darker more tanned like southern europeans. The southern europeans want to be more fair, to prove they are blue eyed with blonde haired.:25:

<JOKE>By the way how much do you think Europe will get for selling Spain to Islam, would it be enough to cover the Greek debt?:grin:</JOKE>

For some of my compatriots to have Berber heritage is something terrible. Personally racial debate does not interest me. For me it is much more important education than race. Example, Japan is a wonderful country, I like much more than England (sorry if this will cause disappointment).
On the subject of the haplogroups, is scientifically proven that some of the Spanish population has a North African origin, how could it be otherwise after 8 centuries of Muslim presence in Spain as chiefs of the territory?
Naturally some of my countrymen can not stand and try to deny it, but scientific proof is definitive.


E1b1b1b1 (E-M81), formerly E1b1b1b, E3b1b, and E3b2, is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maghreb), dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago. This haplogroup reaches a mean frequency of 42% in North Africa, decreasing in frequency from approximately 80% or more in some Moroccan Berber populations, including Saharawis, to approximately 10% to the east of this range in Egypt. Because of its prevalence among these groups and also others such as Mozabite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozabite_people), Middle Atlas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Atlas), Kabyle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabyle_people) and other Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) groups, it is sometimes referred to as a genetic "Berber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_people) marker".

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), where unlike in the rest of Europe it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 10% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria). The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), ranging from 18% (8/45) to 41% (23/56).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands) with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife) (10.68%), Gran Canaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Canaria) (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerteventura) (13.33%).

The pasiegos are a group with a differentiated culture in northern Spain. It was suspected that they were descendants of Muslim people who were given a territory in a sparsely populated valley in Cantabria (Northern Spain). The genetic study has confirmed that.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 15:58
There are a lot of Spanish people who could pass for people of Morocco and Algeria, and vice versa.
Examples: Maria del Monte, singer
http://img851.imageshack.us/img851/286/maradelmonte.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/851/maradelmonte.jpg/)
Luis Rollan, television presenter
http://img200.imageshack.us/img200/760/luisrollan.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/200/luisrollan.jpg/)

I'm not talking about gypsy population, which also form part of the Spanish population. Example: Diego el Cigala, singer.
http://img38.imageshack.us/img38/4301/diegoelcigala.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/38/diegoelcigala.jpg/)

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 16:08
@Ferreira

Look, I've lived and travelled extensively in Spain and the examples you have posted are very atypical for the mainland - Gypsies should not be counted as they are not indigenous to Iberia. You will find a percentage in the Canary Islands that resemble the types you presented but many Canarians have a heritage far different than most Spaniards. Are you sure you're Galician?:wary2:

Ferreira
28-06-11, 16:13
Yes, I know where I was born. If you want to know where exactly: Ourense :smile:. Gallegos (Galicians) are a little lighter hair and eyes than other inhabitants of Spain, but we are much less than the French, as I have seen in my two trips to France.

Gypsies are not of European origin, it is true. But what changes that? Now they are Spaniards, and they have been so for centuries.
Only third picture is gipsy. First and second picture are from Andalucia, not Canary Islands. There are hundred of thousands as Maria del Monte and Luis Rollan in Spain.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 16:14
No need to repeat. Once again, haplogroup frequencies DO NOT determine phenotype, only autosomal DNA does. Y-haplogroup E3B is found at higher levels in a number of Balkan, Eastern Mediteranean and Central European countries compared to Iberia, and the great majority of people from these regions hardly resemble N. Africans. :rolleyes2:

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 16:16
All are atypical for Spain and Iberia as a whole.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 16:24
Within the E haplogroup in Europe there are 2 subclasses (subclade), one is the E-M81 which is located in Spain and Portugal, which is of North African origin, and the other is the E-M78 which is found in Balkans to a lesser extent, in Central Europe, which arrived in Europe from the Middle East through Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

People can lie, but Genetic don't.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 16:33
[QUOTE=Ferreira;373817]Within the E haplogroup in Europe there are 2 subclasses, one is the E-M81 which is located in Spain and Portugal, which is of North African origin, and the other is the E-M78 which is found in Balkans to a lesser extent, in Central Europe, which arrived in Europe from the Middle East through Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

It doesn't matter where it came from. The majority of M-81 very likely resulted from very ancient migrations. To repeat, haplogroups DO NOT determine phenotypes, only autosomal DNA does. Iberians show an overwhelming European (particularly Atlantic European) component in all autosomal DNA research. Reference the Eurogenes project. Yes, you are correct, genetics don't lie (provided the research is properly conducted).

Ferreira
28-06-11, 16:41
[QUOTE=Ferreira;373817]Within the E haplogroup in Europe there are 2 subclasses, one is the E-M81 which is located in Spain and Portugal, which is of North African origin, and the other is the E-M78 which is found in Balkans to a lesser extent, in Central Europe, which arrived in Europe from the Middle East through Turkey.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

It doesn't matter where it came from. The majority of M-81 very likely resulted from very ancient migrations. To repeat, haplogroups DO NOT determine phenotypes, only autosomal DNA does. Iberians show an overwhelming European (particularly Atlantic European) component in all autosomal DNA research. Yes, you are correct, genetics don't lie (provided the research is properly conducted).

Yes, you has said the same three times. Y-DNA is by far the best way to track our ancestors, what a pity that you don't accept its results. I do not mind, the unbiased reader know that genetics does not deceive.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 17:00
[QUOTE=Grey Moss;373818]

Yes, you has said the same three times. Y-DNA is by far the best way to track our ancestors, what a pity that you don't accept its results. I do not mind, the unbiased reader know that genetics does not deceive.

Obviously, certain things have not registered with you (perhaps you are purposely ignoring critical facts). Y-DNA and Mt-DNA frequencies give us a snapshot of ancient migration patterns and such is meaningful in determining general contributions to a given people's genome. However, only TOTAL ancestry impacts PHENOTYPE / PHYSICAL APPEARANCE. That is where autosomal DNA comes in. The only legitimate indicator of a given population group's genetic affinities is autosomal DNA and Iberians score well above 80% European, higher than many other Euro population groups.

I'm certainly not saying there aren't ancient Berber markers in the Iberian genome. However, compared to other influences they are trivial.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 17:04
[QUOTE=Grey Moss;373818]

Yes, you has said the same three times. Y-DNA is by far the best way to track our ancestors, what a pity that you don't accept its results. I do not mind, the unbiased reader know that genetics does not deceive.

Obviously, certain things have not registered with you (perhaps you are purposely ignoring critical facts). Y-DNA and Mt-DNA frequencies give us a snapshot of ancient migration patterns and such is useful in determining general contributions to a given people's genome - and the older the contributions the less meaningful they are. However, only TOTAL ancestry impacts PHENOTYPE / PHYSICAL APPEARANCE. That is where autosomal DNA comes in. The only legitimate indicator of a given population group's genetic affinities is autosomal DNA and Iberians score well above 80% European, higher than many other Euro population groups.

I'm certainly not saying there aren't ancient Berber markers in the Iberian genome. However, compared to other influences they are trivial.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 17:13
Contestants from spanish big brother http://www.telecinco.es/granhermano/

There are a lot as him in Argel. He is from Malaga.
http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/3894/granhermano12.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/535/granhermano12.jpg/)

Blond dyed hair doesn't deceive. She is andaluza (andalucian)
http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/9258/charis.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/860/charis.jpg/)
He is canario (Canarian)
http://img846.imageshack.us/img846/9066/oliverb.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/846/oliverb.jpg/)
She is from Extremadura.
http://img705.imageshack.us/img705/876/laurai.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/705/laurai.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)

Winner of Big Brother 6. He is from Alicante.
http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/1697/juanjo.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/861/juanjo.jpg/)
Uploaded with ImageShack.us (http://imageshack.us)
All of them are Spaniards 100%
Only in contest Big Brother there are many examples. Any of them could pass before a native inhabitant of Algiers than by one of Amsterdam or Paris. As for me, there's nothing wrong with that, if anyone has doubts.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 17:25
Sure, sure whatever... You are obviously cherry picking. I'll post some random group photos shortly Mex.:smile:

Ferreira
28-06-11, 17:41
I regret that you do not really like it, but I'm not going to lie to save you a disappointment. I have to tell the truth, not mine, but the scientist. The problem with scientific results is yours, not mine.

Another examples from Spanish Big Brother 4 http://www.telecinco.es/granhermano/photogallery/6364/photo1.shtml

She is from Madrid
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/6535/bb4andalucia.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/15/bb4andalucia.jpg/)

She is from Andalucia
http://img135.imageshack.us/img135/3536/bigb4andalucia.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/135/bigb4andalucia.jpg/)

She is from Andalucia
http://img838.imageshack.us/img838/4192/bigbrother4andalucia.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/838/bigbrother4andalucia.jpg/)

http://img801.imageshack.us/img801/8269/bigbrother4vizcaya.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/801/bigbrother4vizcaya.jpg/)

There are millions of Spanish with this features. Removing them dye hair, there is clearly racial connection with Morocco and Algeria in Spain.

Do you want to continue with Big Brother 5? Perhaps the reader is bored.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 17:50
4906490749084909Just a few little samples, Mex. BTW, how's the weather today south of he border?:laughing: Now, cut the infantile nonsense. :bored:

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 17:53
Millions? What planet are you operating out of?

Ferreira
28-06-11, 17:59
4906490749084909Just a few little samples, Mex. BTW, how's the weather today south of he border?:laughing: Now, cut the infantile nonsense. :bored:

Do you want another photos from scholar boys in Spain??? Ok, I'll do it.


Yes, children are often lighter hair, but it is here in England, in Greece and even in Algeria. The big brother contestants are Spaniards, though you don´t like it. Gypsies are also Spaniards but also you do not like.
The study of Y-DNA is not an infantile topic, instead your refusal to accept scientific reality itself is childish.
Then I'll post more photos of Spanish Big Brother, now I have no time.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 18:02
There are thousands I can post, not just children. Just checked the Gran Hermano site for Spain and only one or two resemble the examples you posted.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 18:06
Yes, children are often lighter hair, but it is here in England, in Greece and even in Algeria. The big brother contestants are Spanish, though you don´t like it. Gypsies are also Spanish but also you do not like.
The study of Y-DNA is not an infantile topic, instead your refusal to accept scientific reality itself is childish.
Then I'll post more photos of Spanish Big Brother, now I have no time.

Obviously, you have plenty of time to devote to a bizarre agenda. You are fooling no one who has any awareness of things Spanish, Mex.:bored:

Ferreira
28-06-11, 18:12
One of the most important football club in Galicia. Caranza. Photos:

http://www.galiciadecaranza.com/index.php?option=com_joomleague&func=showPlayers&p=127&ttid=1272&Itemid=2

http://www.galiciadecaranza.com/index.php?option=com_joomleague&func=showPlayers&p=73&ttid=674&Itemid=2

http://www.galiciadecaranza.com/index.php?option=com_joomleague&func=showPlayers&p=12&ttid=144&Itemid=2

Etc.

Your idea that the Spanish have a Nordic aspect makes me laugh a lot. You must believe that people are stupid. Do you really think that the English, Germans, Scandinavians who come to spend the summer in Spain do so thinking that here the girls are blonde? :) . In Spain, Galicia too, dark brown hair is the most abundant but with a lot of difference. The blond hair is very rare here. In fact the Spanish call blond hair what in other countries would only be brown hair.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 18:22
This example is good. Caranza alevines (alevín in Spanish is a boy of 10-11 years old). Only one is called blonde in Galicia. But I bet that he would be called brown hair in another countries. The rest of the boys are dark brown as the majority in all Spain.

http://www.galiciadecaranza.com/index.php?option=com_joomleague&func=showPlayers&p=79&ttid=775&Itemid=2

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 18:25
Who said they are all blond? Stop with the nonsense. Blondism (light brown to light blond) in Spain runs about 17-20%, hardly a majority. Stop making Spaniards seem like they are marginal Europeans, Mex.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 18:26
So? They hardly look N. African.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 18:27
"Here in England"?. Now you are from the U.K.? hmmm...

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 18:32
4912I suppose these Spaniards are children as well.:laughing:

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 18:48
You are not listening, Mex. I have explained the usefulness of Y-DNA over and over. However, what is critical to phenotype is NOT Y-DNA but autosomal DNA. Do you understand why?

Spaniards score about 85-86% European (47% S. European and 38-39% N. European) in the Eurogenes project. By comparison, the French come in at around 90%, the English 89% and N. Italians 78%. Look it up on the internet. Additionally, check out DODECAD / Dienekes.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 18:51
And now another famous woman in spanish television: Raquel Bollo and boyfriend. And yes, she is from Andalucia.

4913

Ferreira
28-06-11, 18:55
And now democratic selection from Big Brother 5 in Spain. All those Spaniards 100%.

He is from Galicia.
4914

She is from Madrid
4915

Again from Madrid
4917
He is from Madrid too
4916

Ferreira
28-06-11, 19:07
And now a selection of famous Spanish Gypsies.


492149204919


4918
Although anyone does not like the idea, they are part of the Spanish population since centuries ago. They came from outside Spain, but the Visigoths, Arabs, Romans and Phoenicians came from outside the Iberian peninsula. Not always form a separated group, since some people, especially in Andalusia, has a relative gypsy. Examples is the famous singer Maria Jimenez (her granmother was gypsy).
4922

Another famous actress, Angela Molina has not gypsy heritage known, but her looks reminds a bit of a gypsy.

http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/7395/angelamolina.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/837/angelamolina.jpg/)

Elena Furiase, young spanish actress, is half gypsi.

http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/1068/elenafuriase.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/37/elenafuriase.jpg/)

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 19:27
Gypsies are not autochthonous Spaniards. You just love to post photos of atypical Spaniards, don't you Mex? Mainstream Spaniards look like the group examples I posted. Enough said.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 19:40
Atypical? Hahaha. Poor man. Yes, typical spanish as blonde as the pictures you posted, hahaha. Do you think people are retarded?

Big Brother 6. http://www.telecinco.es/granhermano/photogallery/6362/photo1.shtml

Asturias
4927

Andalucia
4923

Madrid
4924

Salamanca
4925

Asturias
4926

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 19:47
GROUP pictures please. I've been all over Spain and these people are atypical for Spaniards. So, have you figured out where you are from? First it was Ourense then A Coruna then England. I'm afraid you have some real issues.

BTW, most of the Gran Hermano actors from the site you linked are mainstream looking for Spain. Also, some of your latest pictures fall within the realm of mainstream, not N. African looking.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 19:52
And now famous spanish actors in USA. Hollywood producers must be stupid, because being the typical blond Spanish they give them Hispanics roles instead of Russians, Czechs and Norwegians.
Paz Vega, Antonio Banderas, Penelope Cruz.


493149304929

Sara Montiel. She, very attractive, worked in Hollywood in the 50's. He played a Mexican Indian, lol.
4928

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 19:55
What blond? I posted only group pictures. Let's see you do the same, Mex. And no gypsies, please.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 20:04
What blond? I posted only group pictures. Let's see you do the same, Mex. And no gypsies, please.

The problem with you is that most of the photos I have posted are not Gypsies, hahaha. Sorry, but your idealized Spain exists only in your fantasies. From USA you have lost sight of what Spain is.

By the way, Antonio Banderas is not gypsy, he is the typical andaluz (andalusian) :).

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 20:21
The problem with you is that most of the photos I have posted are not Gypsies, hahaha. Sorry, but your idealized Spain exists only in your fantasies. From USA you have lost sight of what Spain is.

By the way, Antonio Banderas is not gypsy, he is the typical andaluz (andalusian) :).

The person who is fantasizing is YOU. :laughing: I see you posted a picture of Banderas with his Mexican make-up on.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 20:26
hmmm...Now that you talk about haplogroup E-M81, in this study the French had more than Spaniards, even more than Andalusians :

Cruciani et al. 2004 :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/?tool=pmcentrez

Ferreira
28-06-11, 20:27
The person who is fantasizing is YOU. :laughing: I see you posted a picture of Banderas with his Mexican make-up on.


Yes, he wears a mexican mask in that photo, :laughing:.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

And the extent of haplogroup E-M81 subclade E from Berber population to northern Spain up is an international conspiracy to deny to Spain the right to be a Nordic people 100%. You are completely fool, but if it makes you happy...
I know that if I gave you the reason then you'd stay relaxed, but I can not lie, and science either. I feel for you. You have a serious self esteem problem. It must be terrible for you that the Spanish have a haplogroup of North African origin. That's your problem, not mine.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 20:28
Only group pictures are relevant. Enjoy. :laughing:

iapetoc
28-06-11, 20:32
so according the result North italians looks like frenceh who llok like iberians, who look N fricans, who look like eGYPTIANS, who look like Greeks who look like South Italians,

the circle is closed, Noth Italians look like southern Italians, :grin:

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 20:37
Nobody says spaniards are nordic. But neither north-african like you pretend. In the study that I presented you the E-M81 was more frequent in French people than spaniards.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 20:40
@ Ferreira

Did you forget your meds today? No one said that Spaniards are Nordic. :laughing: They are majority Atlantic. You seem to have a rather fertile imagination.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 20:42
hmmm...Now that you talk about haplogroup E-M81, in this study the French had more than Spaniards, even more than Andalusians :

Cruciani et al. 2004 :
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1181964/?tool=pmcentrez

Yes , it's true. In this resumen from Wiki, there are E-M81 too in France, but in very localized areas, mainly Paris, a city that has hosted emigration for centuries. In rest of Europe is rare, being more habitual E-M78.

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-33) it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 10% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Adams2008-19)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-34)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-35)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), ranging from 18% (8/45)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) to 41% (23/56).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands) with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife) (10.68%), Gran Canaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Canaria) (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerteventura) (13.33%).[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-38)
E-M81 is also found in France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) 2.70 % (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auvergne_(region)) (5/89) and Île-de-France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Ele-de-France_(region)) (5/91),[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-39)[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-40) in Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily) (approximately 2% overall, but up to 7% in Piazza Armerina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina)),[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-41) and in slightly lower frequencies in continental Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) (especially near Lucera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucera))[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36) possibly due to ancient migrations during the Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe), Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire), and Carthaginian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage) empires.
As a result of its old world distribution, this sub-clade is found throughout Latin America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America), for example 6.1% in Cuba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba),[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-42) 5.4% in Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) (Rio de Janeiro), [Note 7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-43) and among Hispanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic) men from California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California) and Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii) 2.4%.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-44)
In smaller numbers, E-M81 men can be found in areas in contact with the Maghreb, both around the Sahara, in places like Sudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan), and around the Mediterranean in places like Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon), Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), and amongst Sephardic Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardic_Jews).

Porcentages naturally vary from one study to another, and the smaller the sample is more variation will be.

But two facts are proved: the origin of the E-M81 is Berber and Spain and Portugal are the countries of Europe where E-M81 is the most common. It could not be otherwise, since both countries have been closely connected with North Africa.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 20:46
But these are haplogroup frequencies, not admixture. The admixture obtained with autosomal markers, shows no more than 2-3 % of berberid admixture.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 20:47
Yes, he wears a mexican mask in that photo, :laughing:.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)

And the extent of haplogroup E-M81 subclade E from Berber population to northern Spain up is an international conspiracy to deny to Spain the right to be a Nordic people 100%. You are completely fool, but if it makes you happy...
I know that if I gave you the reason then you'd stay relaxed, but I can not lie, and science either. I feel for you. You have a serious self esteem problem. It must be terrible for you that the Spanish have a haplogroup of North African origin. That's your problem, not mine.

I'm perfectly happy with who and what I am, thank you.

Sorry, but the real fool here is you - trying to paint Spaniards as, in base, N. African. You seem to have a pathological propensity for mendacious behavior.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 20:48
Obviously this is a terrible thing for many Spaniards, although not all are that of xenophobes. Some of my compatriots dread the idea of ​​comun genetic with North Africa (even in small percentage). Sorry for you if you are so closed minded, but genetics does not deceive.

4938

In Spain there have been many invasions of peoples from other places, but the idea that only Europeans left genetic mark, while non-Europeans left without not footprint is laughable. I'm sure many Europeans will laugh as I laugh. Reveals a complex of inferiority.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 20:49
Yes , it's true. In this resumen from Wiki, there are E-M81 too in France, but in very localized areas, mainly Paris, a city that has hosted emigration for centuries. In rest of Europe is rare, being more habitual E-M78.

In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-33) it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 10% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Adams2008-19)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-34)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-35)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), ranging from 18% (8/45)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) to 41% (23/56).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands) with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife) (10.68%), Gran Canaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Canaria) (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerteventura) (13.33%).[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-38)
E-M81 is also found in France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/France),[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) 2.70 % (15/555) overall with frequencies surpassing 5% in Auvergne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auvergne_(region)) (5/89) and Île-de-France (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%8Ele-de-France_(region)) (5/91),[34] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-39)[35] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-40) in Sicily (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicily) (approximately 2% overall, but up to 7% in Piazza Armerina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piazza_Armerina)),[36] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-41) and in slightly lower frequencies in continental Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy) (especially near Lucera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucera))[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36) possibly due to ancient migrations during the Islamic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_Europe), Roman (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Empire), and Carthaginian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthage) empires.
As a result of its old world distribution, this sub-clade is found throughout Latin America (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_America), for example 6.1% in Cuba (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuba),[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-42) 5.4% in Brazil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brazil) (Rio de Janeiro), [Note 7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-43) and among Hispanic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hispanic) men from California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California) and Hawaii (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawaii) 2.4%.[38] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-44)
In smaller numbers, E-M81 men can be found in areas in contact with the Maghreb, both around the Sahara, in places like Sudan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan), and around the Mediterranean in places like Lebanon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon), Turkey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkey), and amongst Sephardic Jews (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sephardic_Jews).

Porcentages naturally vary from one study to another, and the smaller the sample is more variation will be.

But two facts are proved: the origin of the E-M81 is Berber and Spain and Portugal are the countries of Europe where E-M81 is the most common. It could not be otherwise, since both countries have been closely connected with North Africa.

More highly selective material from WIKI. Get this through your head; AUTOSOMAL DNA is what determines phenotype not haplogroup subclades.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 20:56
More highly selective material from WIKI. Get this through your head; AUTOSOMAL DNA is what determines phenotype not haplogroup subclades.


If you do not believe in genetics, in particular Y-DNA (only because the results are not what you expected) what do you do in this forum where genetics is accepted as a universal science? It's ridiculous what you're doing.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 20:59
Obviously this is a terrible thing for many Spaniards, although not all are that of xenophobes. Some of my compatriots dread the idea of ​​comun genetic with North Africa (even in small percentage). Sorry for you if you are so closed minded, but genetics does not deceive.

4938

In Spain there have been many invasions of peoples from other places, but the idea that only Europeans left genetic mark, while non-Europeans left without not footprint is laughable. I'm sure many Europeans will laugh as I laugh. Reveals a complex of inferiority.

More selective material from that great information source, WIKI.:laughing: The genomic composition of Iberia's (Spain, Portugal and Andorra) full heritage is overwhelmingly European (~ 88%). There are some minor NW African and W. and SW Asian components as well. The latter percentages are minor and far less than many other European peoples. Finito!

Look, we have seen this act before. :bored: Just another charlatan trying to create a false picture of certain population groups. Quite sad...

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:00
Obviously this is a terrible thing for many Spaniards, although not all are that of xenophobes. Some of my compatriots dread the idea of €‹€‹comun genetic with North Africa (even in small percentage). Sorry for you if you are so closed minded, but genetics does not deceive.

4938

In Spain there have been many invasions of peoples from other places, but the idea that only Europeans left genetic mark, while non-Europeans left without not footprint is laughable. I'm sure many Europeans will laugh as I laugh. Reveals a complex of inferiority.
According to the study of Cruciani et al. 2004 the frequency of E-M81 in Southern Spaniards is 1.6% while in France is 3.6%

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:02
In the last Dodecad K=12 admixture run, the spaniards are more european than Dutch, French or Hungarians, here is the list ranking of European score :



Lithuanian_D 99.1
French_Basque 98.5
Belorussian 97.1
Polish_D 95.8
Norwegian_D 92.8
Swedish_D 92.7
Mixed_Slav_D 92.1
Orcadian 92
German_D 91.7
British_Isles_D 91.5
French_D 91.3
Irish_D 91.1
Finnish_D 91
British_D 90.9
CEU 90.8
Spaniards 90.8
Dutch_D 89.9
French 89.9
Russian_D 89.7
Hungarians 88.8
Mixed_Germanic_D 88.2
Russian 86.7
North_Italian 86.1
Sardinian 85.8
Portuguese_D 84.9
N_Italian_D 83.9
Balkans_D 83.8
Tuscan 77.3
C_Italian_D 69.4
Greek_D 68.5
Sicilian_D 63.4
S_Italian_Sicilian_D 62.5
S_Italian_D 61.9
Ashkenazy_Jews 57.7
Ashkenazi_D 57.1
Sephardic_Jews 54.6
Morocco_Jews 49.9
Cypriots 47.6
Turkish 40.9

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:02
If you do not believe in genetics, in particular Y-DNA (only because the results are not what you expected) what do you do in this forum where genetics is accepted as a universal science? It's ridiculous what you're doing.

What do you think autosomal DNA research is? It's GENETICS! You are the one who is ignoring science.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:05
Do not be stupid. I can get you the original studies (Wiki only resume them), but I preferred to get the summary of Wiki as I see you're a bit close-minded.

Quetion again: if you don't believe in Y-DNA genetics whay are you in this forum??? hAHAHA.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:06
Do not be stupid. I can get you the original studies (Wiki only resume them), but I preferred to get the summary of Wiki as I see you're a bit close-minded.

Quetion again: if you don't believe in Y-DNA genetics whay are you in this forum??? hAHAHA.
I repeat : Some studies show France having more E-M81 than Spain. Second : y-DNA does not represent your ancestry, only one direct line, since it's only transmitted from your father. Autosomal-dna is what can determine admixture. See my list above.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:10
In that study, which i don't know, they deny haplogroup E, subclade E-M81 in Spain? Can you give me the link?

All europeans are seeing how terrible it is for some Spaniards have genetic from North Africa. Some try to deny Y-DNA!!! That's is funny because we are in a genetic forum!!!

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:12
I don't know any study with more E-M81 in France than in Spain, that's ridicolous. Even in your link, they recognize so much as 20% in Valle del pas (Cantabria). Unbeateble in Europe.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:12
In that study, which i don't know, they deny haplogroup E, subclade E-M81 in Spain? Can you give me the link?

All europeans are seeing how terrible it is for some Spaniards have genetic from North Africa. Some try to deny Y-DNA!!! That's is funny because we are in a genetic forum!!!
Stop being sucha an immature idiot. The E-M81 is found in all Europe. Even in Finland it has been found. Second : the y-DNA doesn't represent your ancestry, only one direct line. For the whole ancestral composition they use autosomal markers (SNP's).

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:15
We get the insults. When you run out of arguments come the insults. Sorry for you. E-M81 is also unkown at north of Spain. In France is very limited overall, only in Paris region is present at small percentage.

4940

Sorry for you, even in your chart (very limited samples), win Spain by far:

4941

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:16
Do not be stupid. I can get you the original studies (Wiki only resume them), but I preferred to get the summary of Wiki as I see you're a bit close-minded.

Quetion again: if you don't believe in Y-DNA genetics whay are you in this forum??? hAHAHA.

Once again for the the person who has trouble understanding certain things: Y-DNA is used by geneticists only to determine ancient population migrations impacts. Y-DNA does not have to do with FULL ancestry. Autosomal DNA is what determines FULL ANCESTRY. The figures that Wilhelm posted reflect full ancestry and phenotype - the genetic ancestry bottom line.

p.s. it should also be mentioned that Spaniards and Portuguese also test over 60% Atlantic.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:17
You are a childish amateur, Mex. Do you think this forum is filled with dolts?

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:18
We get the insults. Sorry for you. E-M81 is also unkown at north of Spain. In France is very limited overall, only in Paris region is present at small percentage.

4940

Sorry for you, even in your chart (very limited samples), win Spain by far:

4941
You can see on the table : French have 3.6 % and Southern Spaniards (supposedly more moorish) : 1.6 %

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:20
I don't know any study with more E-M81 in France than in Spain, that's ridicolous. Even in your link, they recognize so much as 20% in Valle del pas (Cantabria). Unbeateble in Europe.

That 20% comes from the Pasiegos region and the frequencies have been attributed to Mesolithic migrations. Anything that old has no effect at all on phenotype.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:21
You can see on the table : French have 3.6 % and Southern Spaniards (supposedly more moorish) : 1.6 %

I believe it has even been found in Brittany and an area of Wales at higher levels.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:21
You can see on the table : French have 3.6 % and Southern Spaniards (supposedly more moorish) : 1.6 %

With a bigger sample:
In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-33) it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 10% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Adams2008-19)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-34)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-35)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), ranging from 18% (8/45)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) to 41% (23/56).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands) with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife) (10.68%), Gran Canaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Canaria) (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerteventura) (13.33%).[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-38)

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:22
If we go by autosomal studies (whole ancestry) this is what they say :


"European wide study including Spaniards states: No significant correlation is apparent between North African admixture and geography. Genetic exchanges across the Mediterranean Sea, and especially in its western-most part where the geographic distance between continents is smallest (Spain), seem to have been limited or very limited, establishing the North African contribution at between 2.5% and 3.4%. "
Dupanloup, I. (2004). "Estimating the Impact of Prehistoric Admixture on the Genome of Europeans". Molecular Biology and Evolution 21 (7): 1361. doi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_object_identifier):10.1093/molbev/msh135 (http://dx.doi.org/10.1093%2Fmolbev%2Fmsh135). PMID (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PubMed_Identifier) 15044595 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15044595).





Haplogroup composition of the ancient Iberians was very similar to that found in modern Iberian Peninsula populations, suggesting a long-term genetic continuity since pre-Roman times [6] [7] [8].


Wade, Nicholas (August 13, 2008). "The Genetic Map of Europe (http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html)". The New York Times (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Times). http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/science/13visual.html. Retrieved October 17, 2009.





"TA phylogenetic tree constructed on the basis of the high-resolution data deriving from other populations revealed the clustering of Macedonians together with other Balkan populations (Greeks, Croats, and Romanians) and Sardinians, close to another "European" cluster consisting of the Italian, French, Danish, Polish and Spanish populations. The included African populations grouped on the opposite side of the tree."

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118742265/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0



Results: In this study we have sampled over 800 unrelated individuals from the population of Spain,
and have genotyped them with a genome-wide coverage. We have carried out linkage
disequilibrium, haplotype, population structure and copy-number variation (CNV) analyses, and
have compared these estimates of the Spanish population with existing data from similar efforts.
Conclusions: In general, the Spanish population is similar to the Western and Northern Europeans,
but has a more diverse haplotypic structure. Moreover, the Spanish population is also largely
homogeneous within itself, although patterns of micro-structure may be able to predict locations of
origin from distant regions.

http://www.biomedcentral.com/content/pdf/1471-2164-11-326.pdf

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:23
If you don't like genetic Y-DNA I suggest not participate in these scientific forums.

Especially since you're not going to be able to stop the truth from coming out. If you are racist, then you better not participate in a scientific forum saying 4 nonsense.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:25
With a bigger sample:
In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-33) it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 10% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Adams2008-19)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-34)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-35)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), ranging from 18% (8/45)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) to 41% (23/56).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands) with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife) (10.68%), Gran Canaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Canaria) (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerteventura) (13.33%).[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-38)

Excuse me, but are you part parrot? Can't you read?

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:25
PCA autosomal plots. See where are Spaniards and where are Moroccans :


http://imageshack.us/m/845/8067/bga1.png

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:27
If you don't like genetic Y-DNA I suggest not participate in these scientific forums.

Especially since you're not going to be able to stop the truth from coming out. If you are racist, then you better not participate in a scientific forum saying 4 nonsense.
This is not the y-dna section I remind you.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:27
With a bigger sample:
In Europe, E-M81 is found everywhere but mostly in the Iberian Peninsula (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iberian_Peninsula), where unlike in the rest of Europe[Note 6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-33) it is more common than E-M78, with an average frequency of 4-5.6%. Its frequencies are higher in the western half of the peninsula with frequencies reaching 8% in Extremadura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extremadura) and South Portugal, 9% in Galicia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Spain)), 10% in Western Andalusia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andalusia) and Northwest Castile (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Castile_(historical_region)) and 9% to 17% in Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Adams2008-19)[29] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-34)[30] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-35)[31] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Harvcoltxt.7CCapelli_et_al..7C2009-36)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) The highest frequencies of this clade found so far in Europe were observed in the Pasiegos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pas_and_Miera_valleys) from Cantabria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cantabria), ranging from 18% (8/45)[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-MacaMeyer2003-37) to 41% (23/56).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-Cruciani2004-1) An average frequency of 8.28% (54/652) has also been reported in the Spanish Canary Islands (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Islands) with frequencies over 10% in the three largest islands of Tenerife (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tenerife) (10.68%), Gran Canaria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gran_Canaria) (11.54%) and Fuerteventura (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuerteventura) (13.33%).[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_E1b1b_(Y-DNA)#cite_note-38)
These are particular spot areas. Not national averages. Stop being so repetitive.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:28
If you don't like genetic Y-DNA I suggest not participate in these scientific forums.

Especially since you're not going to be able to stop the truth from coming out. If you are racist, then you better not participate in a scientific forum saying 4 nonsense.

Yes, I'm convinced you forgot your meds today. The person on here with racist propensities is YOU; trying to spread all sorts of misinformation about Spaniards. Time to grow up, Mex.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:32
If you don't like genetic Y-DNA I suggest not participate in these scientific forums.

Especially since you're not going to be able to stop the truth from coming out. If you are racist, then you better not participate in a scientific forum saying 4 nonsense.



Regardless of genetics, many Spanish people are more physically similar to an Algerian or Lebanese or even israelian (israelite? I don't know) than an Englishman or a German. Although not all Spaniards, of course. Sorry, but It's true, and if you do not like is not my problem.

Big Brother 3. None of them are Gypsy. More similar at people from Beirut, Istambul or Argel than Berlín or Dublin. First from Barcelona, second too, third from Cadiz, fourht from Seville and fifth from Madrid. Lol!


49474946 4945i 4944
4943

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:37
I don't mind your opinions nor your insults, GreyMoss, hahaha. Me la suda, y si kieres te lo digo en gallego: vai rascala, paiaso.
I only mind about scientific results.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:37
Regardless of genetics, many Spanish people are more physically similar to an Algerian or Lebanese than an Englishman or a German. Although not all of them, of course. Sorry, but It's true, and if you do not like is not my problem.

Big Brother 3. None of them are Gypsy. More similar at people from Beirut, Istambul or Argel than Berlín or Dublin. First from Barcelona, second too, third from Cadiz, fourht from Seville and fifth from Madrid. Lol!


49474946 4945i 4944
4943
Of course you are cherry picking. I could also say these are typical spaniards :

4948 4949 4950 4951

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:38
Regardless of genetics, many Spanish people are more physically similar to an Algerian or Lebanese or even israelian than an Englishman or a German. Although not all of them, of course. Sorry, but It's true, and if you do not like is not my problem.

Big Brother 3. None of them are Gypsy. More similar at people from Beirut, Istambul or Argel than Berlín or Dublin. First from Barcelona, second too, third from Cadiz, fourht from Seville and fifth from Madrid. Lol!


49474946 4945i 4944
4943

Obviously you haven't encountered many Lebanese or Algerians. There is variation in every population group, but most Spaniards (all Iberians) are closer in appearance to western and southern French. Once more, only random group photos are relevant.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:39
I don't mind your opinions nor your insults, GreyMoss, hahaha. Me la suda, y si kieres te lo digo en gallego: vai rascala, paiaso.
I only mind about scientific results.
A ver, tu eres gilipollas o te lo haces ver ? Que no sabes que en este foro hay gente que sabe un montn de estos temas ?. No vas a engaar a nadie, payaso.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:41
that blonde people are much less typical than the others (if they don't have his/her hair dyed and are spaniards). Anyway, they are rare in Spain. Do you think european people is retarded? When a nordic arrives at Spain, what does he/she see? Blonds or dark haired? Hahaha. It's an absurd question, because all people know the answer, hahaha.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:43
I don't mind your opinions nor your insults, GreyMoss, hahaha. Me la suda, y si kieres te lo digo en gallego: vai rascala, paiaso.
I only mind about scientific results.

Who do you think you're fooling? You are as much Gallego as I'm Russian. Usted viene de una liga the ninos.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:45
that blonde people are much less typical than the others. Do you think european people is retarded? When a nordic arrives at Spain, what does he/she see? Blonds or dark haired? Hahaha. It's an absurd question, because all people know the answer, hahaha.

Wilhelm clearly stated that the Nordic / blond phenotypes he posted are not typical for Spain. Most of the photos you posted are not what is considered mainstream in mainland Spain.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:46
Why not post groups of people, instead of individuals ? Here we go, groups of Spaniards :

4952 4953495449554956

iapetoc
28-06-11, 21:47
Angela Molina

hmmmm i would say typical mediteraneo,

that type is the majority in Greece, west Turkey and the whole east mediterennean,

I think some ones must find the difference among Roma gitanes Cinquiani and old Medottereneans,


in fact I couls say Irene Papas sister,


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gUFMxYPRHBU&feature=related

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:47
Hahahah, 20% blond in Spain. keep on dreaming, sir o miss, you are so ignorant. Hahaha. That was the most funny statement that I have ever read in this forum. Dedícate al humor, la genética no es lo tuyo.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:48
Nearly all mainstream, common types.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:50
Hahahah, 20% blond in Spain. keep on dreaming, sir o miss, you are so ignorant. Hahaha. That was the most funny statement that I have ever read in this forum. Dedícate al humor, la genética no es lo tuyo.

Ostensibly, you find many truths funny, don't you? Mex, care to share your emotional maladies with us?

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:50
Hahahah, 20% blond in Spain. keep on dreaming, sir o miss, you are so ignorant. Hahaha. That was the most funny statement that I have ever read in this forum. Dedícate al humor, la genética no es lo tuyo.
Idiot, this is what an anthtopological study says :

http://antropologiaaragonesa.org/pdf/temas/2.11_La_bioantropologia.pdf

Also another one here :

" . In Spain, as a whole, some 29 per cent of the male population has black hair, some 68 per cent dark brown, while traces of blondism are visible in 17 per cent "

Ferreira
28-06-11, 21:53
Hahahah, 17% blond in Spain?. keep on dreaming, sir o miss, you are so ignorant. Hahaha. That was the most funny statement that I have ever read in this forum. Dedícate al humor, la genética no es lo tuyo.

Blondism is so infrecuent in Spain (Galicia included) than here we call Blonde who at the north of the Pyrenees WOULD be called brown hair.

Of course a lot of Spanish women dye their hair blond, though their faces are anything Nordic.
Example, Belen Esteban. Very, very famous in Spain

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7990/belenmw.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/belenmw.jpg/)

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:54
Hahahah, 20% blond in Spain. keep on dreaming, sir o miss, you are so ignorant. Hahaha. That was the most funny statement that I have ever read in this forum. Dedícate al humor, la genética no es lo tuyo.

Blondism is so infrecuent in Spain (Galicia included) than here we call Blonde who at the north of the Pyrenees WOULD be called brown hair.

Of couse a lot of Spanish women dye their hair blond, though their faces are anything Nordic.
Example, Belen Esteban. Very, very famous in Spain
Vas a ser baneado, por payaso.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 21:57
Hahahah, 17% blond in Spain. keep on dreaming, sir o miss, you are so ignorant. Hahaha. That was the most funny statement that I have ever read in this forum. Dedícate al humor, la genética no es lo tuyo.

Blondism is so infrecuent in Spain (Galicia included) than here we call Blonde who at the north of the Pyrenees WOULD be called brown hair.

Of couse a lot of Spanish women dye their hair blond, though their faces are anything Nordic.
Example, Belen Esteban. Very, very famous in Spain


Blondism is not so infrequent in Spain, eso te lo sacas del orto. Read the anthropological studies on the matter. They all talk about 17-20 %

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 21:58
Idiot, this is what an anthtopological study says :

http://antropologiaaragonesa.org/pdf/temas/2.11_La_bioantropologia.pdf

Also another one here :

" . In Spain, as a whole, some 29 per cent of the male population has black hair, some 68 per cent dark brown, while traces of blondism are visible in 17 per cent "



I think that the black hair figure is far too high. Most Spaniards have dark or medium brown hair. Red shades, ginger and auburn, are probably around 6-7% (with a tendency more towards auburn shades) and light brown to light blond is in the 17-20% range.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 22:00
Hahahah, 17% blond in Spain?. keep on dreaming, sir o miss, you are so ignorant. Hahaha. That was the most funny statement that I have ever read in this forum. Dedícate al humor, la genética no es lo tuyo.

Blondism is so infrecuent in Spain (Galicia included) than here we call Blonde who at the north of the Pyrenees WOULD be called brown hair.

Of course a lot of Spanish women dye their hair blond, though their faces are anything Nordic.
Example, Belen Esteban. Very, very famous in Spain

http://img707.imageshack.us/img707/7990/belenmw.jpg (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/707/belenmw.jpg/)

Hey, the circus left town. What are you still doing here? Maaaannnn you are thick.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 22:05
Grey Moss, You can say what you want, I do not care. What I care about are the genetic studies, and E-M81 is present in Spain. If you do not like it, it's not my fault. You digest the results of research as you can.
Readers are seeing that for some Spanish racists have the E-M81 in Spain is a tragedy. But not all Spaniards are so closed minded, thankfully.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 22:09
When I was in Venice and Milan I saw more blonde people there in a week than in Galicia in a month. And Galicia is supposed to be more lighter than other regions of Spain.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 22:09
Grey Moss, You can say what you want, I do not care. What I care about are the genetic studies, and E-M81 is present in Spain. If you do not like it, it's not my fault. You digest the results of research as you can.
Readers are seeing that for some Spanish racists have the E-M81 in Spain is a tragedy. But not all Spaniards are so closed minded, thankfully.
Y dle con el E-M81. It's present in all Europe. Yes, the highest frequencies are in France and Spain, but this is only y-DNA, it has nothing to do with Admixture. For whole ancestry admixture, the autosomal markers are used. Why do you refuse to accept Autosomal, when it's the most revealing part of ancestry in genetics ?

Ferreira
28-06-11, 22:10
I don't insult as you are doing frecuently.

Wilhelm
28-06-11, 22:11
See this autosomal genetic plot, where are moroccans and where are Spaniards ? :

http://imageshack.us/m/845/8067/bga1.png

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 22:12
Grey Moss, You can say what you want, I do not care. What I care about are the genetic studies, and E-M81 is present in Spain. If you do not like it, it's not my fault. You digest the results of research as you can.
Readers are seeing that for some Spanish racists have the E-M81 in Spain is a tragedy. But not all Spaniards are so closed minded, thankfully.

You really are part parrot... Sick!

Ferreira
28-06-11, 22:12
Vas a ser baneado, por payaso.

I'm not insulting as you are doing frecuently.

Ferreira
28-06-11, 22:13
You really are part parrot... Sick!

Another insult more, keep on doing it.

Cambrius (The Red)
28-06-11, 22:14
Yeah, yeah. Sure, sure. And pigs can fly... :laughing: