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steveuk
09-06-11, 16:04
Hi All! New here.
I'm very pro-european and think that with the rise of continental sized countries like China and India economically the need for a United Europe has never been greater!

Do you agree?

Follow me on twitter- http://twitter.com/#!/AUnitedEurope
and Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-United-Europe/229486310410972

GP850mAh
15-06-11, 18:35
Hi All! New here.
I'm very pro-european and think that with the rise of continental sized countries like China and India economically the need for a United Europe has never been greater!

Do you agree?

Follow me on twitter- http://twitter.com/#!/AUnitedEurope
and Facebook - http://www.facebook.com/pages/A-United-Europe/229486310410972

Yes, I totally agree with you. I think a united European federation with a minimal federal government and strong states that would deal with everything but national defence and foreign issues could get enough support amongst people to become a reality.

Riccardo
15-06-11, 19:03
United in diversity! ;)

4894

Reinaert
15-06-11, 23:15
A United States of Europe- is that possible? Would you like to see it happen?
Hi All! New here.
I'm very pro-european and think that with the rise of continental sized countries like China and India economically the need for a United Europe has never been greater!

Do you agree?

NO!

Europe sucks. As long as the English and Americans are spoiling our party, and we let it happen over and over again.

Europe should work on a common market like it was meant to be, and refrain from imperial stupid ideas!

And what you are saying about China and India.. It's our own bloody capitalist scum that's investing hard cash in those pirate states! China and India are both exploiting humans!!!

Capitalist always talk about free trade! My ass!
What we need is fair trade!

Gavroche
16-06-11, 11:04
China and India are both exploiting humans!!!They will be great countries when they will have:
-Democraty
-Free health care system
-Social rights and egalities
-Right to strike

Reinaert
16-06-11, 19:45
My point is, we can make a living in Europe if we work in and for our own market.

It's idiot to buy things of of poor quality from China, and fly them in by air.
Airplanes can only fly cheap because there is no tax on the fuel!
It's criminal to do so, but big companies have their (bought) friends between high ranking politicians.

hushtalk
16-06-11, 20:40
as a belgians point of view, yes maybe. as long we can keep our states cultural background, kings, queens etc they are part of how a country is , even if only it was nostalgia.

belgians seem to be strong without a gouverment of their own, im sure others can aswell, and replacing all gouverments with 1 president might work

Reinaert
16-06-11, 20:52
belgians seem to be strong without a gouverment of their own, im sure others can aswell, and replacing all gouverments with 1 president might work

Haha A European president? We will nor can EVER AGREE!

iapetoc
16-06-11, 21:05
as a belgians point of view, yes maybe. as long we can keep our states cultural background, kings, queens etc they are part of how a country is , even if only it was nostalgia.

belgians seem to be strong without a gouverment of their own, im sure others can aswell, and replacing all gouverments with 1 president might work

well try to say that to british, do you believe they expell their 'mother' just for EU ?

also some other areas with kings, but I believe the left side drivers are strongly bind with their customs that will not allow Eu to do that.

iapetoc
16-06-11, 21:10
They will be great countries when they will have:
-Democraty
-Free health care system
-Social rights and egalities
-Right to strike

yes i share also this,
but my believes are that is more posiible Europe will become an Arab country or India, than they have real democracy, social rights, and right to strike,
in Syria 1200 tanks massacre rioters.

Mzungu mchagga
16-06-11, 22:26
A United States of Europe- is that possible?

As one can read by the comments on this discussion, plus others in this forum, definately NO!


Would you like to see it happen?

Only if it was possible, see point one! ;-)

Cimmerianbloke
17-06-11, 03:15
Definitely no way. The US share a common culture and one language. The cultural diversity found in Europe makes it unlikely to happen ever. Thank God for that, as I want to be able to travel to one place on the continent and not feel like in London...

Reinaert
17-06-11, 19:22
Where I believe in is the opposite of a European empire.

What we need is a Europe of the regions.
That is.. A centrally ruled bill of rights, based on the universal rights of humans.
And also a common social law. Wages should be the same everywhere in Europe, for the same jobs.
In the same time, we also need to improve the possibility for people to build an own home and working place.
In a region we can bring the work closer to where people live, by building new compounds.
The magic word is "communalism" a political idea between communism and capitalism, that last systems both fail!

Be proud to be European, we have better food than the MacDonalds of the USA can offer.
We can make a better banking system than what the pirate banks like Goldman Sachs and others do.

Sybilla
10-07-11, 16:07
Yes, I think that divided we are simply not competitive, we are like a preistoric creature with not future. I know that Europe is very complicated politically speaking, but finally we must learn to stay united.
The new state would be something innovative and never seen before, where every region has its own language but with an overnational language like English (which is also the easiest Indo-European language) to unite us.

Gusar
12-07-11, 04:32
No thank you from Serbia. I would rather we be like those Gauls who refuse to sacrifice their village to some behemoth. We do not possesss these submissive traits many other peoples seem to have.

LeBrok
12-07-11, 06:58
No thank you from Serbia. I would rather we be like those Gauls who refuse to sacrifice their village to some behemoth. We do not posesss these submissive traits many other peoples seem to have.
Oh it's so romantic, but where are to Gauls now with their language? If not few historians, we wouldn't' even know about them, right?
Even in 2 thousand years if there is a country name Serbia, Serbian language will evolve to something else that you won't be able to understand. The culture will be different, most likely religion too, even look of people will change. What will you do now? :shocked: Defend and die for things that will pass and be forgotten?!
Linear pottery anyone? Anyone? :grin:

Antigone
12-07-11, 07:53
Have to agree with Lebrok there. The old adage of united we stand, divided we fall has been historically proven time and again.

iapetoc
12-07-11, 08:31
European Union was founded in The principals of each culture keeps its ID,

Today we see that some ones are Building European empire,

Wanted or Not for will support that, some will be slained for that, and will find way to survive and revenge it.

Europe is about to turn to a what? and that helps who?

ali
12-07-11, 10:18
It would be a very boring place if Europe was to become one country. One president for Europe with many countries would create a civil war.

Europe has always been many countries and it should stay that way.

I can see the good point of the EU,trying to stop wars from happening in Europe but the EU had committed bad non-white migration policy into Europe. EU has done more bad then good.

IMPH,EU should be dismantled.

ali
12-07-11, 10:19
Diversity kills!

ali
12-07-11, 10:20
United in diversity! ;)



Diversity kills!

It's killing Europe's culture,all Europe's countries culture is being destroyed!

Gusar
12-07-11, 16:55
LeBrok, there is a sort of self deprecating prophetic statement that Serbs sometimes refer to. It's that one day there will be enough of us to fit under a single plum tree. It certainly feels relevant in recent times the way Team America has seen us essentially ethnically cleansed from Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo. So, yes you can point out that in 2000 years we could be something else but it's like we already are more aware of that then anyone. The thing is though, we easily could have disappeared by now long ago had our ancestors not been so strong. With that attitude we could have just given in, converted to Islam and been loyal Ottomans. Thankfully our ancestors did not give in and left us with a legacy that gives us pride and strength and that's what we should do for our future generations.

On Europe specifically, we have always had a strong sense of European identity steaming largely from our battle against the Turks. We even formed a border line against them for centuries to protect Europe. It was known as the Vojna Krajina. We have always known about the problems Islam will bring to a European society. We are almost smug now in seeing the problems western Europe is experiencing with them. So we have always had a strong sense of European identity as part of our own though today's secular Europe doesn't mean jack shit in that regard. This would only be worth it for economic reasons... Actually Reinaerts ideas appeal to me a lot though I don't see them as very likely.

Bodin
30-08-11, 10:08
I am all pro United States of Europe , so we could get out of USA "protectorate " and start making our own politic without any foreign " advices" , Europe loosed its own power in iner strugle in two world wars ,and Europe after II WW was divided betwen two outerEuropean lands SSSR and USA . I believe Europe deserve to regain its #1 in world . You are mistaking if you think China will show any mercy( and I dont blame them for that ) if we dont stand united before they get lot more powerfool then we are , and they will .
About Serbian languague I believe it is Slavic languague that Sarmatians took as they own so I wouldnt mind if my childs would speack English , but I would realy mind ifthey would be Chineses , and not Serbs .
Ofcours Union with high authonomy for each region . And who said that England would have to live mother quen , in my oppinion real European political sistem is monarchy and there should be monarchy in every European country

crudshoveller
22-11-11, 19:40
For interest, in his prophetic view of the future world H.G.Wells (died 1946) included the idea of an 'United States of Europe'.

Franco
23-11-11, 20:16
There will never be something such a "United States of Europe". There is no common language and no common patriotic sentiment. A Frenchman will always think of himself as being a Frenchman before an European , the same can be applied to a British, etc. It's nice being a dreamer, but being honest I think Europe will never be like USA. Europe will always remain at most as a Confederation, that is pretty much like USA was before 1860, or like Switzerland nowadays. That's not bad per se, because if Europa was like USA we would end up being a superpower that cares of world hegemony more than well being of the citizens.

Franco
23-11-11, 21:30
Yes, I think that divided we are simply not competitive, we are like a preistoric creature with not future. I know that Europe is very complicated politically speaking, but finally we must learn to stay united.
The new state would be something innovative and never seen before, where every region has its own language but with an overnational language like English (which is also the easiest Indo-European language) to unite us.

English may be the easiest one for a Swedish speaker, but not for a Spanish speaker. Anyways I guess it could be worse if German had to be chosen , in the end it is the most spoken language natively in Europe.

Cimmerianbloke
26-11-11, 04:18
Oh it's so romantic, but where are to Gauls now with their language? If not few historians, we wouldn't' even know about them, right?
Even in 2 thousand years if there is a country name Serbia, Serbian language will evolve to something else that you won't be able to understand. The culture will be different, most likely religion too, even look of people will change. What will you do now? :shocked: Defend and die for things that will pass and be forgotten?!
Linear pottery anyone? Anyone? :grin:

I wouldn't poke at Serbs, they know how to stir serious sh!t. Your comment is pretty presomptuous, as you deny that some parts of Europe would prefer to keep away from standardisation and dilution into a heartless (and brainless) institution. This thread should be called "A USSR of Europe? It is possible, actually, that's what is happening...
The right to chose another path than wild capitalism and integration into a structure that leaves no place for national sensibilities should be an inalienable right. Seems like Mosc..., sorry, Brussels tends to forget that. I am just very relieved Berlin and paris do not take advantage of the crisis to push for more integration.
Goulag and Internationale, anyone? :-)

Cimmerianbloke
26-11-11, 04:37
Have to agree with Lebrok there. The old adage of united we stand, divided we fall has been historically proven time and again.

Should the whole Union fall because a kern of governments can not run their own country? In this particular case, it's more like united we fall, divided, some will stand...

Antigone
26-11-11, 08:20
Does anyone know were any of it will lead Cimmerianbloke? But we have already tried being a Europe at odds with centuries of war plus the two major wars in the last century that didn't achieve anything either. A little co-operation is a nice change from the past method of sword and gun.

LeBrok
26-11-11, 09:23
Thanks Antigone, that's my answer too. Let's try something else instead of jumping to our throats as we used to.

If we think that EU future is bleak, let's remind ourselves what our parents and grandparents thought about Europe and it's future in midst of WWI or II or shortly after during heights of Cold War.

Cimmerianbloke
26-11-11, 12:56
I am just depicting the situation, I am no warmonger. Cooperation means the rich paying for the poor. Look at Spain, Italy and Belgium. If within the same nation, we see people not ready to pay for their poorer country fellowmen, what chance do we have to see rich countries paying for the poorest. You just have to read the press to have an answer. Rise of populism, nationalism and anti-European (as an institution) feeling, bitterness at the countries and governments that lead us there. Again, as I wrote in another thread, most of the continent has been living over its means, and capitalism is not a game where everybody wins. You don't play at the casino if you are broke. I wish the situation were different, as I have two teenage kids who will have to pay for the mess our parents created (with good intentions though). You sometimes need to call a spade a spade.

Antigone
27-11-11, 08:05
Thanks Antigone, that's my answer too. Let's try something else instead of jumping to our throats as we used to.

If we think that EU future is bleak, let's remind ourselves what our parents and grandparents thought about Europe and it's future in midst of WWI or II or shortly after during heights of Cold War.

I think lessons of the past are forgotten too easily and school history education alone does not seem to impress on the young, just how horrific Europe was. The destruction of nations, families, homes and incomes plus malutrition and disease. All of which resulted in mass migrations to Australia, US and Canada, or for those lucky enough.

Even the uncertainty and problems in the EU today are far more preferable to the alternative.

Cimmerianbloke
28-11-11, 00:27
Look at the map of Europe since the Middle-Ages. Borders have moved back and forth, Poland ceased to exist and was split between other nations, countries are born, some others do not exist anymore. It is all a normal, dynamic, almost organic process. I think the situation is normal from an historic point of view. People are afraid of change, we have to think the world has we have known it has changed and live with the new one. Mankind is a product of nature and nature favours the ones that adapt to their environment. The EU integration failed because it was not taking into account factors that could bring her down.

Franco
28-11-11, 02:50
I am just depicting the situation, I am no warmonger. Cooperation means the rich paying for the poor. Look at Spain, Italy and Belgium. If within the same nation, we see people not ready to pay for their poorer country fellowmen, what chance do we have to see rich countries paying for the poorest. You just have to read the press to have an answer. Rise of populism, nationalism and anti-European (as an institution) feeling, bitterness at the countries and governments that lead us there. Again, as I wrote in another thread, most of the continent has been living over its means, and capitalism is not a game where everybody wins. You don't play at the casino if you are broke. I wish the situation were different, as I have two teenage kids who will have to pay for the mess our parents created (with good intentions though). You sometimes need to call a spade a spade.

I don't remember the exact numbers but in reality North Italy gives way more funds to South Italy than West Germany to the East. Of course North Italian nationalists would like to pay just 0 Euro to the South, but maybe also excessive amounts are counter-productive as the poor Italian regions will never feel compelled to being more productive as long as they can grab others' money. In Spain Catalan separatist always argue that in Germany the rich länder can stop contributing to the poor ones' economies beyond certain level that is fixed at federal level in terms of total GDP . They complain that in Spain there is not such limit, so let's say Andalusia needs certain amount of money to finance their healthcare system because they don't have enough , then the Spanish rich regions must contribute until the required money is fullfiled as long as those rich regions have funds left for themselves, but there is not such fixed limitation a priori.

LeBrok
28-11-11, 03:05
Depending on what you are looking for you would prefer one instance of Europe over another. If you like our civilization to be more natural (organic?) than you are born too late. My best Europe so far exists right now, in time when we unleashed more of human potential, educated masses, gave people good life and more freedoms. Thanks to this we brought peace and cooperation between states and nations. I know the old ways (you described) worked well (at lest worked) for long thousands of years. New Europe with new way of life is certainly a phenomenon (historically speaking), untested and uncertain. Like one big experiment.
Having set that, I truly believe that today's Europe is not a coincidence, a mare fluke. I can see long chain of events that have lead us slowly to this state of affairs. It started with technology, capitalism, and renaissance about 500 years ago. Europe that we have right now is from evolutionary process, natural, therefore it is here to stay.

Cimmerianbloke
28-11-11, 03:53
You guys have both very valid points. I am not nostalgic of the golden age of European domination over the world, I am only very critical at the poor level of management we witness in the current crisis. The EU failed to prove it could deal with problems affecting the Eurozone it created. The world economics have been working with more speed since computers have become a common management tool, but you can feel the EU is still stuck with file cabinets and typewriters. The solutions do not come flowing, they come too late and by the time they are applied, the root of the problem has evolved and the answer is no more adapted to the problem. My point is that if the EU wants to be effective, the whole structure has to be revamped and boosted to be able to deal with issues in real time. I am also very critical of the lack of transparency when it comes to the billions they seem to find over a cup of coffee after lunch. The history of the Vatican shows us that if you do not live with your time, you are condemned to be relegated to the backseat.
Franco, the north-south fracture is something Europe overlooks. In Italy, the south is the source of the mafia, which existed well before the Italian state and was itself a form of local government which people trusted because it was local people looking after local solutions for local problems. Industrialising the south or expecting the south to get the level of development Torino or Milano has is not realistic. Culture has a lot to do, as in the south, governments are not trusted and cheating the government is considered fair.The same in Spain: Jaén or Málaga will never have the same economic potential as Catalonia, and on top of that come the linguistic and independence considerations. These matters should stay within the national government's responsabilities. Transfer of money and competences are only worth if the beneficiaries use it to develop their skills in order to be able to be autarcic and stop depending on other regions to face their bills. All the EU does at the moment is giving away checks with little control, the most blatant cases were Bulgaria and Romania, where payments were suspended because of lack of progress in the reforms. The big mistake was giving the check in the first place... The modern-day map needs to be rethought and adapted to the economic reality. It is the only way to keep the Union standing. Another revamp can be done in a few years to get weaker members back into it or allowing them more help.

Antigone
28-11-11, 07:10
I am only very critical at the poor level of management we witness in the current crisis. The EU failed to prove it could deal with problems affecting the Eurozone it created.

I agree with much of what you say and the EU is in need of an overhaul, it has become rather like the Greek government with too much beaurocratic dead wood which also drains resources. But as much as I hate the thought of defending any government or politician I do think you are being a little unfair with this section.

This crisis is far from over, and it is still too early to say with any certainty whether the solutions have failed or worked. The EU is still a relatively new concept plus the idea has never been tried before so I don't think anyone could have predicted at it's conception that this crisis would even happen, little on having ready made solutions for something unseen.

Unchartered waters and all that, although it seems more like the blind leading the blind at the moment but all we can do is work and hope for the best. We've no other choice.

LeBrok
28-11-11, 08:34
I agree Cimmerianbloke, politicians and bureaucrats are generally incompetent and lack responsibility. I'm pretty sure European union will evolve with time into something that will work much better. Today's crisis works as evolutionary forcing, adjustment. There is no way to predict now how the union will look in 100 years. Some form of federal government is needed, overseeing regulations for trade, disputes, finances and maybe military. I believe that instead of nations we'll see only smaller regional local governments, catering to differences or special character of regions, in industry, agriculture, language, schooling, tax collection.

Cimmerianbloke
28-11-11, 08:35
Crises happen all the time, Antigone, with or without virulence. The pressure of the markets has always been there, but the Eurozone was originally thought as a market space, not a political entity. There was no safety net, no european project for a pan-European bank that woud manage the assets, and scan the member candidates. When the crisis hit in 2008, all that could do was to raise money to bail out banks in trouble, with no hard guarantee in returns. In Ireland, people were losing their houses but the bankers responsible for the chaos got to keep their bonuses, and the developpers that owe the banks billions transferred their assets to their spouse, perfectly legally, in order to avoid having their private patrimony seized. It is all common knowledge and the EU has still not tried to tackle the problem. As for being in unchartered waters, I doubt it seriously. Reading the specialised press gives you a good idea of what is coming next. Anyway, with no one in the mood for revolution, we'll have to wait and see, praying to still have something left at the end of the ordeal.

Christiaan
29-11-11, 10:38
Why not? The nationalisms of the narrow minded in the 19th and 20th century had brought us nothing but misery... namely war, genocides and an excuse to be unreasonable chauvinistic about something stupid - like the country you live in. Quite frankly being half-German /half-Dutch I don't understand why some people get scared to loose their national systems. As if this defines what you are. Being European is not something fictional in my opinion, for me personal it is a reality.

julia90
29-11-11, 20:08
we are too many ethnicity and with an ancient hystory back to form a federal state.. with different mentalities..

Christiaan
29-11-11, 22:54
we are too many ethnicity and with an ancient hystory back to form a federal state.. with different mentalities..

No, the real problem is we justify our bad habits by calling them mentality.

jurrian
30-11-11, 12:12
European countries must collaborate between others... but making a single country is a big mistake. Look what happen in Italy or Spain... the north regions are discontent with the south because they feel they are the only ones who work for the country. Some regions even want to be independent. I think the same would happen in Europe but in a big scale.

Cimmerianbloke
30-11-11, 12:30
No, the real problem is we justify our bad habits by calling them mentality.

Ignoring the traits of character that define us as separate nations is a big mistake. Nationalism is there to stay, thinking your own experience could become mainstream is an utopia. And calling nationalism a bad habit is a lack of respect for people who genuinely love their homeland and value their national traditions.

Cimmerianbloke
30-11-11, 12:36
European countries must collaborate between others... but making a single country is a big mistake. Look what happen in Italy or Spain... the north regions are discontent with the south because they feel they are the only ones who work for the country. Some regions even want to be independent. I think the same would happen in Europe but in a big scale.

Collaboration is what has been tried since 1947. Having 27 memberstrying to take balanced decisions has been a disaster. There is always someone who feels ripped off. Now that Germany is in charge by default, everyone is complaining. I have read horrible things in the press about Merkel and "the Fourth Reich". If it were not for Germany and its economy, we would never have experienced such a high lifestyle as Germany has been Europe's wallet since the 1970es. You are right when you mention Italy and Spain (why not Belgium?). Oil and water do not mix and never will. Time for the big shots in Brussels to understand that...

Mzungu mchagga
30-11-11, 12:41
we are too many ethnicity and with an ancient hystory back to form a federal state.. with different mentalities..

This would actually question the existence of the USA, as it is comprised of even more ethnicities and mentalities. But I know what you mean!

After having read other comments in this thread, I could find my personal views here and there again.
My conclusion is that single European nation states are not competitive on the long run against the rest of the world. Especially against China, India and other Asian nations, European nation states will have nothing much to offer against. Same applies to other rising nations of LatAm, and on a political, strategic scale, the Muslim world. The USA aswell, will soon be busy enough dealing with it's own problems than standing behind Europe all the time. So the question is not, how to prevent giving up some nation's sovereignity, but giving it to whom? Of course I would rather prefer being ruled by a pan-European commitee than by a Chinese commitee.
On the other hand, especially in times of crisis like this, I can see that many people are not willing to accept this. People of richer regions fear to be betrayed of their properties, while people of poorer regions feel to be financially, politically and culturally enslaved, and both views are understandable. The EU has in so far missed it's aim to overcome these disparities and build up some trustment.
Right at the moment there is nothing much to predict as practically everything is possible! So I am curious to know how the future will evolve.

ElHorsto
30-11-11, 14:20
I wouldn't poke at Serbs, they know how to stir serious sh!t. Your comment is pretty presomptuous, as you deny that some parts of Europe would prefer to keep away from standardisation and dilution into a heartless (and brainless) institution. This thread should be called "A USSR of Europe? It is possible, actually, that's what is happening...
The right to chose another path than wild capitalism and integration into a structure that leaves no place for national sensibilities should be an inalienable right. Seems like Mosc..., sorry, Brussels tends to forget that. I am just very relieved Berlin and paris do not take advantage of the crisis to push for more integration.
Goulag and Internationale, anyone? :-)

I wholeheardly agree.
Yet I'd like to mention the Warsaw pact model which was very much different from the USSR itself. These countries differed alot from each other. In particular there was never a common currency. I was especially apalled by the tight frontiers. That was ironic considering the notorious announcement of friendship and cooperation. The west european countries were much more interconnected to each other already (EG, open frontiers, laws, Media, Life style, travel, McDonalds,...). The only uniting force of Warsaw pact was the authority of the USSR, which dictated exclusively the common politics towards the enemy.
The EU now in contrast tries to "homogenize" its members using the EURO currency, banana standards, surveillance and other diseases. I'd not be surprised if the US (IMF?) soon becomes the de facto supervising authority for this headless bunch of morons.

Antigone
30-11-11, 18:10
Ignoring the traits of character that define us as separate nations is a big mistake. Nationalism is there to stay, thinking your own experience could become mainstream is an utopia. And calling nationalism a bad habit is a lack of respect for people who genuinely love their homeland and value their national traditions.

I think you are confusing nationalism with partriotism, they are not always quite the same thing.

pa·tri·otism(phttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/amacr.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/prime.giftrhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/emacr.gif-http://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gif-thttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/ibreve.gifzhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/lprime.gifhttp://img.tfd.com/hm/GIF/schwa.gifm) n.
Love of and devotion to one's country.

nationalism [ˈnæʃənəˌlɪzəm ˈnæʃnə-] n 1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) a sentiment based on common cultural characteristics that binds a population and often produces a policy of national independence or separatism
2. loyalty or devotion to one's country; patriotism
3. exaggerated, passionate, or fanatical devotion to a national community

Cimmerianbloke
01-12-11, 05:26
No, Antigone, actually, the left everywhere in Europe is crying wolf every time patriotism is mentioned. Does putting the interests of Greece and its people before the EU and its bankers-technocrats mean you are a nationalist? Does the fact that you want Greek political decisions to be made in Athens and not in Brussels mean you are nostalgic of the colonels era? The left has demonized patriotism beyond reason, the rise of nationalism is just a normal adjustment to the nonsense we have witnessed since 2008. What really saddens me is to read in the press all over Europe that Germany is about to take over the continent. If wanting my country's future to be decided by my fellow countrymen in my country's democratically elected parliament makes me a nationalist, then nationalist I am and I make no excuse for it. You, Antigone, among all, should be the most aware, your prime minister having been removed and replaced by a Brussels puppet to make sure he wouldn't come with more crazy ideas like a national referendum... Asking the people to take a decision concerning its future, isn't that the essence of democracy?

Antigone
01-12-11, 08:31
We must be living in different Europes then because the one you are describing is totally alien to me Cimmerianbloke. Personally, I'll always be a patriot, but a nationalist? Never. Nationalists are extremists and extremists will inevitabely cause more harm than good to the very nation they profess to love.

Papandraeu cut his own throat with the announcement of a referendum at that stage, he was clutching at anything that would keep him in power because of the enormous pressure he was under to step down, both from parliament and by the people. The Greek people themselves didn't want a referendum and thought it was too late to take decisions to a public vote after the deals had already been agreed. And many were saying they that they would make their protest to a referendum known by not voting, if a referendum had been called at the begining, all well and good but it wasn't.

Papandraeu then barely survived a vote of no confidence and only on the promise that he would form a unity government, the main opposition leader (Samaras) flatley refused to compromise nor form any alliance with the ruling party, and the arguments continued for 3 days. The result of our politicians drive to ever serve themselves and not their country, is the very man who helped orchestrate this mess, the banker Papadimos. Sorry, but you are misinformed if you think Brussels could have orchestrated all that on their own.

Christiaan
01-12-11, 14:39
Ignoring the traits of character that define us as separate nations is a big mistake. Nationalism is there to stay, thinking your own experience could become mainstream is an utopia. And calling nationalism a bad habit is a lack of respect for people who genuinely love their homeland and value their national traditions.

I am not ignoring it and I wouldn't describe as a bad habit (like corruption is), because humans in general like to categorize themselves, as they do others. In other words it is simply a natural trait ... a label for us, a label for them, that's the way it has always been. So nothing new under the sun.

However saying this, nationality as an identity or better the scale of it is actually a relatively new phenomenon. In the past people were far more used to multicultural/regional states as we are now. This changed drastically when "monoculture" states called nations with only one dominating language or ethnic were founded in the 19th and 20th century.
Like Germany 1871, Italy 1815, Greece 1832, Hungary 1918, Norway 1908, Finland 1917 etc....Some dynastical /conquestical grown states were falling apart because of this. It is a miracle that Belgium still exists.

Before the appearance of national states people were far more regionalistic orientated then nationalistic. Where there was no linguistic consensus as in Spain and France the dominant culture had been enforced on others.
No wonder some ethnic minorities are still seeking independence from their "alien" mother-states even today. The EU could be a binding factor that allows a more peaceful and smoothly autonomy or independence of those regions without the need to change them their currency or legislation.

Well it might not become mainstream, but the freedom to choose residence as EU-citizen within the EU will produce simply more and more mixed EU backgrounds. So I wouldn't call that fiction.

Antigone
02-12-11, 06:37
Well it might not become mainstream, but the freedom to choose residence as EU-citizen within the EU will produce simply more and more mixed EU backgrounds. So I wouldn't call that fiction.

Good post Christiaan. And you are quite correct, there are already millions of mixed background within the EU and it is only likely to increase. This really really annoys those who like to categorise everyone, as they simply cannot find a suitable box or compartment to place those of mixed background.

Cimmerianbloke
04-12-11, 00:33
Again, the "mixed background" and economic migrants are a tiny minority, and who doesn't always have the right to vote in their host country. It's not a couple of thousands Erasmus students who are going to change the face of Europe. Migrations have always been part of human history, and it has nothing to do with nation-states. The modern map of Europe is the result of hundreds of years of wars, tensions and bargaining between countries that have been allied, foes and neighbours. The fact that every single country in Europe has at least one linguinstic minority proves that uniformization, even on a small scale, is extremely difficult to obtain. Trying to dilute national identities into a huge pan-European space is only going to reinforce them. The 2004 referendums in France, Ireland and Holland, all three heavily pre-European are the best proof European integration has its limits and people are not going to abandon their national sovereignty overnight. I suppose people prefer to get screwed by their own kind rather than by pen-pushers in Brussels. While I am 100% behind a common market, I think everything that came after the Maastricht treaty was a mistake and has to be dealt with for the sake of the balance of the continent. The sooner will be the better. The actual crisis had the merit to show there are leaders that can lead and other that can barely follow. When the dust will settle, we'll have to think about adapting the system to the political reality and not the other way around.

oriental
20-09-12, 01:02
It would be just the "Holy Roman Empire III" neither holy nor Roman. :bored::laughing:

albanopolis
07-04-13, 20:52
I think the United States of Europe is inevitable. Its not going to come in our life time but I am optimistic it will be a reality in the next 200 yrs. The reason is ethnicities will disappear and people of New Europe will not see themselfs different. For instance Germany one of the most stubborn ethnic groups in Europe will cease being Germany in the near future. They have 15 mil nongermans in a span of 40 yrs. Imagine how many will be in 200 yrs. So Germans will be a minority in Germany. I don't want to say Muslims will be a majority because I can't predict it. England will procede Germany by 100 yrs in becoming a multynational nation. They are promoting it. France and Spain will share their countries with Arabs. Albania will be the last to fall. Albanians will not leave anybody in their country since they don't have enough food sources to feed anyone. So all Europe will be inhabited by different races with no ethnic majorities. So it will be hard to see any differences and this will lead to unification. It will happen. Be happy!!

Nordsee
02-05-13, 15:03
No. I don't want my country being swallowed by another/new country and I do not think the majority of the Europeans would want that, even not in 100 or 200 years. We already have the globalism what kind of kills our cultures. We are many countries having many different cultures, languages, mentalities, interests, prosperities and so on in Europe. As long as these things do not change in a big way, I see no future for the "United States of Europe" or something like that. And I hope they do not change. We all should keep our cultures et cetera. This is what makes Europe very interesting, the most interesting 10 million square kilometers in the world I think.

We Europeans all should live side by side in peace like most of us do today. We can work together very close on economy, business and other sectors like we do today, but one united country? I'd say "NEIN", "HALT", "VERBOTEN".

Grubbe
16-05-13, 23:33
I can't see that a United States of Europe could exist or succeed, because of (mainly) two things: Europe is divided into (too) many old and different cultures, and there are great language barriers. It's quite impossible to compare with the USA, because the US is mainly an English idea, with English language and culture as the bottom line. Yes, there are minority cultures (Irish, German, Spanish, French, Chinese and others) in the US, but they are exactly that; minority cultures. In Europe there is no such Umbrella culture as the English, and we know what has happened when a few European nations have tried to force others to become like themselves. So, no, I would not like to see that happen.

oriental
16-05-13, 23:45
Don't forget all those who left were outcasts or couldn't make it so they went to the USA to give up their nationalities to become Americans. In Europe those who remained fought for their nationalities. You got the winners and they ain't gonna give up easy.

Michel Gilson
16-05-13, 23:51
I thought that that was the whole idea behind the theory of the European Union.

Grubbe
17-05-13, 00:07
I thought that that was the whole idea behind the theory of the European Union.
I suspect that, at least in some minds. But then theyhave closed their eyes to all the potential obstacles! But with all thetroubles there has been the last few years, I think that a United States ofEurope is further away than ever.

kamani
17-05-13, 01:32
Don't forget all those who left were outcasts or couldn't make it so they went to the USA to give up their nationalities to become Americans. In Europe those who remained fought for their nationalities. You got the winners and they ain't gonna give up easy.

does a united europe scare you? does it go against your interest as a chinese person?

oriental
17-05-13, 21:09
I want a strong EU but I am showing the difficulties. Maybe it should be partial with only former Charlemagne Empire where those countries feel comfortable with each other. EU affects the world and with a broken EU it makes the world less safe. Some regions are incompatible with the Charlemagne Empire and forcing them in would create only disaster. They should allow for those to withdraw. There is no provision for withdrawal for an amicable separation. It seems almost like a Catholic marriage - no divorce.

A strong union is where people feel they are part of it and defend it. A forced union only bring discord and weakens it. It cannot last long. The present situation shows discord in economic thinking and cultural differences so EU needs a rethink or reboot and allow for amicable withdrawal and refrain from vengeful reprisals. An amicable separation could lead to a future union. There is no need to rush things. Greece, Spain or Italy are not going to fall into the Mediterranean Sea and disappear. There will be there for ages. Think long term.

kamani
17-05-13, 22:02
I want a strong EU but I am showing the difficulties.

That sounds a little hard to believe. A strong EU with a coordinated economic policy is just a bigger more powerful competitor to the asian producers. Now you want your competitors to unite!!

LeBrok
18-05-13, 05:51
That sounds a little hard to believe. A strong EU with a coordinated economic policy is just a bigger more powerful competitor to the asian producers. Now you want your competitors to unite!!
Keep in mind that competitor is also a consumer. In this case rich Europe would consume more Chinese goods, and vise versa. It is actually win/win situation if it comes to economy. Countries wealth is not about money, it is about production. Look at Germany and Greece example. One produces one doesn't, and one is in trouble.

kamani
18-05-13, 18:27
Keep in mind that competitor is also a consumer. In this case rich Europe would consume more Chinese goods, and vise versa. It is actually win/win situation if it comes to economy. Countries wealth is not about money, it is about production. Look at Germany and Greece example. One produces one doesn't, and one is in trouble.

"Win-Win" were words people were using in the US in the early 2000-s when they started importing almost everything from China and outsorcing their tech-jobs to India; now they're in recession since 2007...
Outsorcing jobs and importing everything is the quickest way to destroy your local economy; and the Chinese know it, that's why they don't do that. They're increasing their grip on production and prime resources worldwide and patiently waiting for everybody else to slowly weaken.

Yetos
18-05-13, 20:10
"Win-Win" were words people were using in the US in the early 2000-s when they started importing almost everything from China and outsorcing their tech-jobs to India; now they're in recession since 2007...
Outsorcing jobs and importing everything is the quickest way to destroy your local economy; and the Chinese know it, that's why they don't do that. They're increasing their grip on production and prime resources worldwide and patiently waiting for everybody else to slowly weaken.

could you live in China and not be a party member?

Yetos
18-05-13, 20:14
Keep in mind that competitor is also a consumer. In this case rich Europe would consume more Chinese goods, and vise versa. It is actually win/win situation if it comes to economy. Countries wealth is not about money, it is about production. Look at Germany and Greece example. One produces one doesn't, and one is in trouble.

at 1920's USA had the biggest production ever,
he produce many times than british empire,
yet she run crush?
why?
cause production with no market MEANS NOTHING,

LET GERMANY PRODUCE DOUBLE
IF COUNTRIES CAN NOT ABSORVE WHAT SHE PRODUCE SHE IS DOOMED.

Jackson
18-05-13, 20:48
No i would not like to see it happen, but i know that some people would, and they have the power and the money. Let's hope someone get's them to drop the gun before they fire it.

kamani
19-05-13, 01:26
could you live in China and not be a party member?
I'm sure the average person there has not much voice in economical foreign policy. But their policy is smart (and selfish), it is everybody else who is getting hurt by it and letting it happen that is acting stupid. Do you think there is not 100 different ethnicities within china itself? they're strong because they're united.

LeBrok
19-05-13, 07:49
"Win-Win" were words people were using in the US in the early 2000-s when they started importing almost everything from China and outsorcing their tech-jobs to India; now they're in recession since 2007...
Outsorcing jobs and importing everything is the quickest way to destroy your local economy; and the Chinese know it, that's why they don't do that.
You are wrong. Last recession wasn't about production, but it was about financial sector screwup. Plus public debt and deficit got overwhelming.


They're increasing their grip on production and prime resources worldwide and patiently waiting for everybody else to slowly weaken
Lol, who will they sell to if all the world will be weak and poor?

Do you think you can print money to buy from Chinese? I have to disappoint you, it doesn't work this way. Except for USA, because US dollars are used for international exchanges of goods.

LeBrok
19-05-13, 07:53
I'm sure the average person there has not much voice in economical foreign policy. But their policy is smart (and selfish), it is everybody else who is getting hurt by it and letting it happen that is acting stupid. Do you think there is not 100 different ethnicities within china itself? they're strong because they're united.
They are united by force at the moment. When political liberalization takes effect in China, in about few years, China will disintegrate like Soviet Union. There will be a strong core remaining however.
By that time India will be most populous country in the world.

kamani
19-05-13, 09:26
You are wrong. Last recession wasn't about production, but it was about financial sector screwup.
So outsorcing, importing everything, and having a 100% service-based economy had nothing to do with it!! Have you wondered why people started losing their jobs and not be able to pay their mortgages anymore? They weren't all irresponsible borrowers; most of them could actually pay for stuff at some point in time. How about Japan who has been in a crisis for the past 20+ years, as soon as China's star started to shine. Do you think their blood-feud is only about past history?




Lol, who will they sell to if all the world will be weak and poor?


The will not let it be that poor, but they'll let it be be sick, dependent, and barely making it. It's like the drug dealer who keeps everybody hooked. But whatever, I guess most people never see the iceberg until it's too late.

kamani
19-05-13, 09:34
When political liberalization takes effect in China, in about few years, China will disintegrate like Soviet Union.
It doesn't look like there is any liberalization in sight anywhere in the world today thou. Everything is going towards stronger control.

LeBrok
19-05-13, 11:29
It doesn't look like there is any liberalization in sight anywhere in the world today thou. Everything is going towards stronger control.
That's exactly what people were saying 20 years ago about Soviet Block.

LeBrok
19-05-13, 11:37
So outsorcing, importing everything, and having a 100% service-based economy had nothing to do with it!!
Who has 100% service economy?




Have you wondered why people started losing their jobs and not be able to pay their mortgages anymore? I don't need to wonder. I know exactly what happen.


They weren't all irresponsible borrowers; most of them could actually pay for stuff at some point in time. I wasn't talking about personal debts at all. Personal debt is not a factor in this recession.



How about Japan who has been in a crisis for the past 20+ years Again, Japan is in financial crisis, not production one. Go to Japan and see how their recession looks like.


and you'll see how good life is as soon as China's star started to shine. Do you think their blood-feud is only about past history?Lol, how do you explain EU then. Do you know how much blood-feud used to be in Europe?





The will not let it be that poor, but they'll let it be be sick, dependent, and barely making it. It's like the drug dealer who keeps everybody hooked. But whatever, I guess most people never see the iceberg until it's too late.
Now it is official, you are afraid of China. It reminds me how Americans were scared of rise of Japan in 70s and 80s. "They will come and buy out America..., run, run, it is worse than Pearl Harbor."

Yetos
19-05-13, 13:23
Who has 100% service economy?



I don't need to wonder. I know exactly what happen.

I wasn't talking about personal debts at all. Personal debt is not a factor in this recession.


Again, Japan is in financial crisis, not production one. Go to Japan and see how their recession looks like.

Lol, how do you explain EU then. Do you know how much blood-feud used to be in Europe?





Now it is official, you are afraid of China. It reminds me how Americans were scared of rise of Japan in 70s and 80s. "They will come and buy out America..., run, run, it is worse than Pearl Harbor."

somehow you are right?
but China did not bought USA?
I read an article about Ohio and I read that most of its unemployment is because USA sold to China the bioggest and most modern machines of metal beams,
9/11 also show that,
the biggest factories of metallic beams, the ones who build twin towers etc and Chicago skyscrapers are sold.
a fine technology in steel production sold,

the most fantastic is NIKE story.
strange isn't it?
yet we consider Nike shoes 'made in USA' cause 'Air Jordan' wore those.

kamani
19-05-13, 15:35
Now it is official, you are afraid of China. It reminds me how Americans were scared of rise of Japan in 70s and 80s. "They will come and buy out America..., run, run, it is worse than Pearl Harbor."
The word is not "afraid", but "careful". We're talking about a country with giant population, the vast majority of which has a third-world income. The core of the problem is that everybody is trying to have them do the actual work because it's cheap. What that does is give the income of your middle class to their poor class, which means you'll end up with only very rich and very poor people in your own country, no more middle class.

LeBrok
20-05-13, 20:04
The word is not "afraid", but "careful". We're talking about a country with giant population, the vast majority of which has a third-world income.
Together with development and growth of Chinese economy their wages will grow too. It is only a matter of time when their salaries will catch up to the rest of developed world and they will lose advantage of cheap labour. Same process happened in Japan, Hong Kong, Korea and Singapore. Therefore there is no reason to suspect that it won't happen in China, India and rest of Far East, at some point in the future.

Actually some manufacturing is already coming back to USA. Automations and robotics made producing many items cheaper than they could be manufactured by inexpensive Asian labour and transported to America. This is the future trend, will hugely accelerate soon. Robots and machines will make all our goods soon, replacing people in production. This will bring enormous shift of wealth sharing social structure, taxation, cash flows, education, etc. This is much bigger issue than Chinese influence.



The core of the problem is that everybody is trying to have them do the actual work because it's cheap. What that does is give the income of your middle class to their poor class, which means you'll end up with only very rich and very poor people in your own country, no more middle class. I don't follow how it works.
In China there used to be few rich members of Politburo and the rest were dirt poor. Thanks to embracing capitalism(for first time) now they have 400 million of middle class. 25 years of capitalism and 400 million was lifted out of poverty! Do you see the trend?
The good news is that more people have, the less they want to fight and fewer reasons they have die for. If we take away young man out of equation (who want to fight by nature call), the rest of society wants the same regardless where on planet they live. They want food, clothes, cars, homes, family, kids, vacation and die old. Prosperity everywhere is a recipe for peace on Earth.

LeBrok
20-05-13, 20:34
somehow you are right?
but China did not bought USA?
I read an article about Ohio and I read that most of its unemployment is because USA sold to China the bioggest and most modern machines of metal beams,
9/11 also show that,
the biggest factories of metallic beams, the ones who build twin towers etc and Chicago skyscrapers are sold.
a fine technology in steel production sold, These buildings were built in 80s. By technological standards of today it is an old technology.


the most fantastic is NIKE story.
strange isn't it?
yet we consider Nike shoes 'made in USA' cause 'Air Jordan' wore those.
That's how creative USA is. They have capacity and capital to invent things, and then it naturally tricles down to the rest of the world. In 80s revolutionary thing were the sport shoes. Now it is the Google, Android, WiFi, smart phones, and robotics (coming fast).

What makes me angry is that people know so little about production, although they want all the stuff. Look around how much things we use in our life. Food processing is done mostly by machines these days, cars by robots, furniture rarely are made of real wood these days, and amazing electronics. If you take away everything that we made using machines (meaning: invention and technology) there will be nothing left to look at, except naked people, and only during a day, unless you make a torch. That's what technology, creativity, science and capitalism brought to the world, plus 5 billion more people. (without technology in food production, we could only feed 2 billion max).
And yet ordinary folks know much more about stupid things celebrities and politicians did yesterday, than about how today's marvel of transportation comes to existence, the car. (The thing you can travel 1000 km a day, in constant temperature, listening to your favorite music. Not even King could have it 100 years ago. Thing, that even ordinary people can afford today)

And yet these celebrities loving citizens elect our leaders to run our economy. It is incredible that our production of our goods work at all, lol. It shows how resilient and forgiving capitalism is.

dedted29
23-05-13, 22:44
Hi, My name is Dawn and I'm new to this forum but this thread struck a chord and I just had to comment. I hope Europe can find a common ground of governance in a unified system and I sincerely hope your leaders get it right and keep from becoming corrupted by those in power! I am an American of European descent with an interest in history and was proud of having been born in a country that gave the world a dream of freedom and democracy for over 2 centuries! Are own history definitely didn't live up to those ideals as our history with of our Native population proves and only the Civil Rights movement gave people of color the same rights we held dear. Unfortunately we were also beginning to deny those democratic ideals decades ago when we allowed ideology to govern our actions both at home and abroad in very undemocratic ways. Ronald Reagan is given credit for the fall of communism in Russia while it was Gorbachev who was the true hero for trying to revive his country from a corrupt system that had been failing for decades and had denied basic rights to it's citizens. Gorbachev won the Nobel Peace prize for his ideas and actions that but it's Ronald Reagan who receives all the credit here.

In the last 50 years in America we allowed "Democracy" to become corrupted by ideology and by abdicating our own rights when we began to blindly follow our political leaders and allowed them to become corrupted by money and their sole focus of winning the next election. Democracy was corrupted when our national leaders continued to pursue the ideal that our form of Democracy was what should govern the world and by standards we determined were right for everyone else. We disrespected their beliefs and proved it every time we sent a woman to conduct foreign policy or other business with heads of state in countries where women can't even drive!

Sadly today very few American's realize that the rise of Anti-American Islamists starting with us in Iran in the 1950s. Even when the truth of our dealings in the Middle East with the Eisenhower, Reagan and Bush administrations came to light instead of being a time of realization and serious policy changes we instead continued to portray ourselves as the Democratic ideal and continued the same failed foreign policies abroad.

Obama might have been able to start a path to healing but the damage of 2 wars was already done so when the uprisings in the Middle East began even those countries who allowed greater freedoms to women and others are now threatened to be subverted by the leaders who would deny it. While I'm surprised that any democratic ideals sprang forth the Middle East after our national leaders and prominent religious leaders denouncing the entire Muslim faith as evil and a violent religion while laws were being passed violating the 1st Amendment rights of Muslims here in our own country. Muslims have lived in this country in peace for many decades and only a few have turned to radical Islam.


Here in America in violation of the Bill of Rights we have allowed theology and ideology to violate the 1st Amendment rights of some Americans by allowing states to deny people the right to get married or access medical services based on biblical or religious tenets. While I believe marriage is between a man and a woman the Constitution guarantees I can't enforce it onto others. We allowed Democracy to become controlled by the ideology "Capitalism" and free markets which have not been in the interests of our citizens or national security. We created another special class here, corporations that have the same rights that are guaranteed to individuals but who have none of the responsibilty of being citizen and answer not our nation but their shareholders! At the same our legislators who were receiving generous contributions to their re-election fund crafted laws that relaxed safeguards to protect the people, our financial systems and allowed key industries vital to rebuilding in a crisis to disappear completely. I wonder how many of the idiots in Washington, D.C. stop to realize that the parts, processes and technologies vital to our national defense are produced overseas! They allowed Corporations to obtain obscene profits and wealth by exporting labor to countries with lax labor and environmental laws to produce products of lower quality and of questionable safety to be sold here at home.

What worries me most about China is that our country and corporations gave it the might and means to pursue national policies that may not be in the best interests of democratic societies in Asia. I can't wait to see what happens as China expands and creates their own industries to support their own interests and the lesson Corporate America will learn from that!

Englishman
05-07-13, 03:45
Would love to see this happen, I must be the only english man who wants it to happen, ah well I live in Prague now.

Boss
08-07-13, 11:51
Would love to see this happen, I must be the only english man who wants it to happen, ah well I live in Prague now.

Hahaha you're not the only one but you're certainly among a minority of English people - usually the well traveled, vaguely internationalist, middle classes.

skadi
13-07-13, 03:06
As long as Finland — and preferentially the other Nordic countries as well — is not part of it, I don't give a shit. Your mess, you deal with it. I can only hope that we are able to get out before it's too late :(

James
25-07-13, 17:18
There will never ever be a USE ;)
Because there is no use for it.

Europe (the EU) is a common trade market, and it would be fine to keep it that way.
Europe doesn't gain anything from the new countries.
Only the financial world gains a lot of profit from the development projects.

So, a European Superstate will be interesting for American investor banks only.
So, we vote against it.

LeBrok
25-07-13, 18:07
There will never ever be a USE ;)
Because there is no use for it.
.
So what use for Union (USA) Americans had?

Dinarid
06-06-16, 08:53
NEVER!
It's a fascist fantasy that won't work, is anti-democratic, and would only cause a second Yugoslavia. Is that what you want?
I'm proud of my people, who as it is lack sovereignty, and never want to see the peoples of Europe suppressed and forced into one big mess.

Oasis
10-09-16, 22:43
this can't ever happen.. because of differences - different religions, cultures, languages and different mentalities.