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Dagne
12-06-11, 17:11
There are a lot of theories regarding Dacian Language. One is about Dacian connecting with Baltic languages and, flowingly, Baltic tribes:
From wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language)

"A number of scholars have pointed to the many close parallels between Dacian and Thracian placenames and those of the Baltic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_languages) language-zone (Lithuania (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania), Latvia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia) and East Prussia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Prussia), a region where an extinct but well-documented Baltic language, Old Prussian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Prussian), was spoken until it was displaced by German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language) during the Middle Ages.[89] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language#cite_note-88) These Baltic parallels have enabled linguists to decipher many Dacian and Thracian placenames. Of the 74 Dacian placenames analysed by Duridanov in his 1969 essay, a total of 62 have Baltic cognates, the great majority rated "certain" by Duridanov.[90] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language#cite_note-89) To explain this, Duridanov suggests that proto-Dacian- and proto-Thracian- speakers were in close geographical proximity with proto-Baltic-speakers for a prolonged period in prehistory, perhaps during the period 3000-2000 BC.[91] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language#cite_note-90) Mayer ventures further, suggesting that Dacian and Thracian were what he terms "southern pre-Baltoidic" languages, presumably meaning either proto-Baltic or close descendants of proto-Baltic.[92] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language#cite_note-91) The partially satem characteristics of Thracian and Dacian and their similarities to the Baltic group suggest that an ancestral Thraco-Dacian people was settled in Dacia until part of it migrated into Thrace[93] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dacian_language#cite_note-92)"

To support this theory I have looked at the list of reconstructed Dacian words and compared them with Lithuanian words (also including dialects and old. Lithuanian words).

As you can see the list of similar words is impressive. Have in mind that I was not checking Latvian words and also Old Prussian. Let see if you can also get other comparisons with Romanian, Albanian or Slavic languages and then we can draw our conclusions.
4891

LeBrok
12-06-11, 19:24
I agree with this theory, it makes lot of sense. In past, I was going through some vocabulary of Ilirian, Thracian and Dacian. I found Dacian to be most similar to Slavic. It looks like Dacian, Slavic and Baltic were neighbours for millenia, and might have come from common language 6 thousand years ago.

Dagne
12-06-11, 21:56
Yes, the most tricky part is to estimate the timing in language development.
It is difficult to judge from those few reconstructed words, but it seems that there more similarities between Dacian and Lithuanian than between Dacian and Slavic languages or even between Lithuanian and the Western Baltic Prussian.

There are more arguments that Dacian is more of East Baltic rather than West Baltic: http://www.network54.com/Forum/5317/message/1193315690/Re-+Lithuanian+Language-+Genetic+Roots+of+Lithuanians

zanipolo
12-06-11, 23:36
Yes, the most tricky part is to estimate the timing in language development.
It is difficult to judge from those few reconstructed words, but it seems that there more similarities between Dacian and Lithuanian than between Dacian and Slavic languages or even between Lithuanian and the Western Baltic Prussian.

For comparison, Latvian and Lithuanian split arround 6-7 AD, but the Latvian and Lithuanian vocabularies vary greatly from each other and are not mutually intelligible like Eastern Slavic languages.

So getting down

I doubt this because of the germanic tongue of the bastanae that seperated the finnic/baltic languages from the dacian/thracian ones. Unless the lithuatians had a germanic language from the peucini, then.......

I found these sites
http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin43/p43t2.htm

and also this site below which indicates a latinized base for its language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia-Rimini_Line

as you can see it belongs fully with a southern italian linguistic group . Its an eastern latin group

iapetoc
13-06-11, 00:54
I doubt this because of the germanic tongue of the bastanae that seperated the finnic/baltic languages from the dacian/thracian ones. Unless the lithuatians had a germanic language from the peucini, then.......

I found these sites
http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin43/p43t2.htm

and also this site below which indicates a latinized base for its language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia-Rimini_Line

as you can see it belongs fully with a southern italian linguistic group . Its an eastern latin group


so still we can determine the language of Thracians, if Daci is original or south Slavic, .
well the ancient scripts never mantion Thracian west of Dinaric Alps,
I believe that must be a basis the cut with razor any Illyrian,
the tribes in Illyria and the tribes of Dardani,
Dardani are mentioned as Illyrothracian, that means could speak or understand both,
Illyrians are never mentioned as Thracians,

the case of Latino-Thracian or Slavo-Thracian hmmmm it is difficult,
if we consider Pomaks of Echinos are original thracians, and not scythians that find to dwell there, then the case is Heavy to Slavic,
if we considered that Daci never invaded by mass slavic but from Romans and in Byzantine time were Latino-speakers that also leads us to Slavic-Thracians,

I believe a key to solve is the different names
Greeks call Thracians the Pannoni the tribaldi the Odrysse, But Getae the Daci, the today area of Crimea and Ucraine
But the archaiological evidence are not showing much connection with Slavic, but mostly with Greek and Latin
The case of Skodra-Skudra, that connects Persian with Thracian seems it is not so strong so Thracians be assimilated by Persian culture,

I believe that the secret is among Vrygians and Bithini in Past, while today ..... isolated Pomaks Gorani and Torbesi?

the case of an East Latin language is connected as many times I said with Pelasgians and Anatolian Languages.

according ancient Geographers Thracians expand east of Dinaric Alps and Getae from Romania to Asia,
the case of a Queen of Getae sends us to North of Persia,

Taranis
13-06-11, 15:52
What I'm missing here really is sound correspondence.

In my opinion Dacian without a doubt was a Satem language, but the Baltic and Slavic families are closer to each other than they are to Dacian. It might be interesting to look for common Balto-Slavic-Dacian sound laws, however... if such a thing exists.

Dagne
13-06-11, 16:12
What I'm missing here really is sound correspondence.

In my opinion Dacian without a doubt was a Satem language, but the Baltic and Slavic families are closer to each other than they are to Dacian. It might be interesting to look for common Balto-Slavic-Dacian sound laws, however... if such a thing exists.

Based on the list of reconstructed Dacian words, there are more similarities between those Dacian words and Lithuanian than between Lithuanian and Slavic (ie Russian) equivalents of the same words.

This extreme similarity should be explained somehow. Should Latvian and Prussian words were compared, there would be even more similar words between Dacian and Baltic languages.

One explanation to this similarity can be about timing in comparing languages, which also plays a role - Dacian stoped developed at 4th century, while Slavic languages started developing their differences from that point on, and therefore, there are more similarities betweeen Lithuanian (which is very consevative) and Dacian than between Lithuanian and Slavic at this point of development).

Regarding sound laws - I have posted a reference to some articles (sorry it is a bit longish and complex :sad-2:) where the authors claims that Dacian is an Eastern Baltic language because it underwent sound change typical also for Lithuanian, ks - sk, while Western Baltic languages (Prussian) don't have it.

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 16:15
thing is there are not many Dacian and Thracian words preserved.... that makes it hard to map to some concrete people.....

we cannot therefore look Dacians in isolation from what was going on in whole area....
one possible mapping of today tribes to ancient tribes would be like this:

Russian primary chronicle places early Slavs (before spread of Roman empire) in areas around Danube - from Pannonia to /and including Thrace... not in Dacia!!

effectively, this would imply that tribal names were:

Thracians = Raseni (Etruscans) = Russians = R1a people (note also Rascians as alternative medieval name for Serbs)
* note that etruscans call themselves Rassena while Greeks insert Th before that and turn them into Thyrsenians, following that anomaly in spelling names from other languages, real name of Thracians was very likely as well without starting Th...

Thracians being most populous people in Herodotous times, propbably means that there was not much difference between Thracians, Scythians and Sarmatians... that it was culturally and linguistically same people..


Balts would be most north part of Thracians, whose culture is shaped through contact with Finish and Germanic people... they are living mixed with Finish people - thus R1a haplogroup with strong influence of N haplogroup...


Daci = Getea = in my opinion later Goths - germanic people (note also similarity of tribal name Daci and Deutch)... perhaps I2b and I1 people

finally, note that Scordisci are considered Celtic or celticized people, and that Serdi are celtic tribe that settle Thrace and Asia minor from area of Scordisci (roughly Serbia)...Serdi are thracanized Celts... and tribal name Serdi is identical to tribal name Scordisci just written in Greek following thracian pronounciation instead of following Celtic one - Scordisci is same as Scordi if we substract Celtic ending.. Scordi is same as Sordi if we take into account that Greeks also wrote Slavs as Sclaveni.....) ....I will try to deal on another thread with shared vocabulary of Celts and Serbs...

note that Scordisci are thought to have merged with Illyrian tribe Autoriatae
(compare pair Scordisci - Autariatae vs. Serbs-Croats (Croats self-name = Hrvati)

this is all in accordance with Russian primary chronicle that proposes that
Danubian Slavs have moved to north when Romans conquered and settled areas around Danube.... thus, in times preceding return to Balkan, we have so called white Croatia in Slovakia, south Poland and west Ukraine, and white Serbia east of it...
note that Byzantine emperor who records settlements of Serbs and Croats from white Serbia and white Croatia, also denotes that Serbs did also originally dwelt in Bohemia...
this is link to their possibly Celtic origin from Boii via Scordisci/Serdi.. that is in correspondence with theories of possible origin of I2a2 ...

Taranis
13-06-11, 16:19
Based on the list of reconstructed Dacian words, there are more similarities between those and Lithuanian than between Lithuanian and Slavic (ie Russian) equivalents of the same words.

I'm not talking about the pure similarity of words, but about the similarity of sound laws. For your observation above, the Baltic languages are fairly conservative, and the modern Slavic languages have Slavic sound laws on top of Balto-Slavic sound laws applied, which accounts for the dissimilarity.

(I mean, as we noted a while back even Gaulish and Latvian have similarities, that doesn't mean that Gaulish was a Baltic language, or that Latvian is a Celtic language :laughing: )

EDIT:

for instance, Gaulish "Touta" and Latvian "Tauta"

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 16:43
I'm not talking about the pure similarity of words, but about the similarity of sound laws. For your observation above, the Baltic languages are fairly conservative, and the modern Slavic languages have Slavic sound laws on top of Balto-Slavic sound laws applied, which accounts for the dissimilarity.

this is very interesting remark...

could it be that language of Balts was not affected with arrival of new peoples and languages due to their north most position, while slavic languages were influenced by iranian (sarmatians), germanic (Goths, but also Gepidi, Langobardi...) and turkic (Avars) speakers... would such complex set of influences be able to account for dissimilarity in sound laws and vocabulary....

Dagne
13-06-11, 17:30
(I mean, as we noted a while back even Gaulish and Latvian have similarities, that doesn't mean that Gaulish was a Baltic language, or that Latvian is a Celtic language :laughing: )


EDIT:

for instance, Gaulish "Touta" and Latvian "Tauta"
and Dacian would say Tauta, too lol

yes, I see what you mean.

Dagne
13-06-11, 18:02
What I'm missing here really is sound correspondence.

Is this that you mean by sound correspondence? It is a bit too complicated for me to follow:


" Dacian and Thracian -- southeast Baltic. South Baltic because, like Old Prussian, they keep unchanged the diphthongs ei, ai, en, an (north Baltic Lithuanian and Latvian show varying percentages of ei, ai to ie, and en, an to ę, ą (to ē, ā) in Lithuanian, to ie, uo in Latvian). East Baltic because the Dacian word žuvete (now in Rumanian spelled juvete) has ž, not z as in west Baltic, and the Thracian word pušis (the Latin-Greek transcription shows pousis which, I believe, reflects -š-.) with zero grade puš- as in Lithuanian pušìs rather than with e-grade *peuš- as in Prussian peusē. Zero grade in this word is east Baltic, e-grade here is west Baltic, while the other word for “pine, evergreen”, preidē (Prussian and Dacian), priede (Latvian), is marginal in Lithuanian matched by no *peus- in Latvian.
So Dacian and Thracian are south Baltic like Prussian and east Baltic like Lithuanian (but not like Latvian which is west Baltic like Prussian)". http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/h_mayer.html

Taranis
13-06-11, 20:28
Is this that you mean by sound correspondence? It is a bit too complicated for me to follow:

I could walk it out in detail and come up with a far more awkward explanation, but it's actually explained rather short and detailed in this article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_correspondence#Origin_and_development_of_the _method).

In particular, the following section is critical, in particular bolded parts:

[QUOTE]The comparative method developed out of attempts to reconstruct the proto-language mentioned by Jones, which he did not name, but subsequent linguists named Proto-Indo-European (PIE). The first professional comparison between the Indo-European languages known then was made by the German linguist Franz Bopp in 1816. Though he did not attempt a reconstruction, he demonstrated that Greek, Latin and Sanskrit shared a common structure and a common lexicon.[12] Friedrich Schlegel in 1808 first stated the importance of using the eldest possible form of a language when trying to prove its relationships;[13] in 1818, Rasmus Christian Rask developed the principle of regular sound changes to explain his observations of similarities between individual words in the Germanic languages and their cognates in Greek and Latin.[14] Jacob Grimm - better known for his Fairy Tales - in Deutsche Grammatik (published 1819-37 in four volumes) made use of the comparative method in attempting to show the development of the Germanic languages from a common origin, the first systematic study of diachronic language change.[15]
Both Rask and Grimm were unable to explain apparent exceptions to the sound laws that they had discovered. Although Hermann Grassmann explained one of these anomalies with the publication of Grassmann's law in 1862,[16] it was Karl Verner who in 1875 made a methodological breakthrough when he identified a pattern now known as Verner's law, the first sound law based on comparative evidence showing that a phonological change in one phoneme could depend on other factors within the same word, such as the neighbouring phonemes and the position of the accent,[17] now called conditioning environments.
Similar discoveries made by the Junggrammatiker (usually translated as Neogrammarians) at the University of Leipzig in the late 1800s led them to conclude that all sound changes were ultimately regular, resulting in the famous statement by Karl Brugmann and Hermann Osthoff in 1878 that "sound laws have no exceptions".[18] This idea is fundamental to the modern comparative method, since the method necessarily assumes regular correspondences between sounds in related languages, and consequently regular sound changes from the proto-language. This Neogrammarian Hypothesis led to application of the comparative method to reconstruct Proto-Indo-European, with Indo-European being at that time by far the most well-studied language family. Linguists working with other families soon followed suit, and the comparative method quickly became the established method for uncovering linguistic relationships.[10]


" Dacian and Thracian -- southeast Baltic. South Baltic because, like Old Prussian, they keep unchanged the diphthongs ei, ai, en, an (north Baltic Lithuanian and Latvian show varying percentages of ei, ai to ie, and en, an to ę, ą (to ē, ā) in Lithuanian, to ie, uo in Latvian). East Baltic because the Dacian word žuvete (now in Rumanian spelled juvete) has ž, not z as in west Baltic, and the Thracian word pušis (the Latin-Greek transcription shows pousis which, I believe, reflects -š-.) with zero grade puš- as in Lithuanian pušìs rather than with e-grade *peuš- as in Prussian peusē. Zero grade in this word is east Baltic, e-grade here is west Baltic, while the other word for “pine, evergreen”, preidē (Prussian and Dacian), priede (Latvian), is marginal in Lithuanian matched by no *peus- in Latvian.
So Dacian and Thracian are south Baltic like Prussian and east Baltic like Lithuanian (but not like Latvian which is west Baltic like Prussian)". http://www.kroraina.com/thrac_lang/h_mayer.html

In a nutshell, the poster argues that between Dacian and the Baltic languages, there is a partial match (of common innovations) with South (ie, actually West) Baltic (ie, Old Prussian) and also with East Baltic languages.

If these observed patterns are really the case (ie, partial share of innovations), this casts questions on the relationship of the Baltic languages. Especially because, given the attestation and sprad of Dacian, we have to assume that the split of Baltic was considerably earlier. Of course, this begs the question of how the Slavic languages are related with this.

What popped up sporadically in the past is the observation that some of the Baltic languages (ie, Latvian) actually share common innovations with Slavic absent in the other Baltic languages. This raises the question if the Baltic languages are actually "paraphyletic", basically that the Balto-Slavic languages split up in various Baltic languages along with Proto-Slavic. If this really was the case (I'm not 100% convinced yet), then this would certainly leave the possibility that Dacian was indeed part of Balto-Slavic.

Now, what would be really interesting (to verify this) is identifying common sound laws.

Dagne
13-06-11, 22:36
In other words, the different sounds in

Touta (Gaulish) - Teuta (Pre-Germanic) - Θiuda (Gothic)- Tauta-(Lith. Dacian)

are because of different sound laws at work which indicate different languages ...

Dagne
13-06-11, 23:10
Also, this may sound very strange to you, but somehow Dacian words sound fine to me, whereas Thracian totally foreign. In spite that there are also some semantic similarities with Thracian (though less than with Dacian). Could that be of different sound laws in Dacian and Thracian where Dacian is more close to Lithuanian?

Taranis
13-06-11, 23:31
In other words, the different sounds in

Touta (Gaulish) - Teuta (Pre-Germanic) - Θiuda (Gothic)- Tauta-(Lith. Dacian)

are because of different sound laws at work which indicate different languages ...

Prettymuch. There's also the German word "Deutsch" (or "Dutch" in English :satisfied: ), and "totum" ("the whole") in Latin (cognates also exist in the modern Romance languages, such as "tout" in French or "todo" in Spanish)... and so on... :good_job:


Also, this may sound very strange to you, but somehow Dacian words sound fine to me, whereas Thracian totally foreign. In spite that there are also some semantic similarities with Thracian (though less than with Dacian). Could that be of different sound laws in Dacian and Thracian where Dacian is more close to Lithuanian?

Well, there's the opinion that Dacian and Thracian were not that closely related (for which there's a good case, but which takes longer to elaborate. Both were Satem languages, but apparently may not that close. What should be noted is that the Thracian word for gold "Saldas" is also a cognate with Germanic/Baltic/Slavic.

Dagne
14-06-11, 22:31
Perhaps there are sound law in such changes?

English Dacian Lithuanian Russian

good geras geras horoshii Dacian Lithuanian "g" to Rusian "h"
mapple klevas klevas klion Dacian Lithuanian "v-(as)" to "n"
dry sausas sausas suhoi Dacian Lithuanian "s" to Russian "h"
cold galtis šaltis holod Dacian "g" to Lith. "š" and Russ. "h"
stone akmon akmuo kamen Dacian "on" to Lith. "uo" Russ "ka"


Both Lith. and Dacian have endings noun endings as/a/is,
adjectives in -us and -as -a

Taranis
15-06-11, 00:20
I'll have to give this some more thought. Unfortunately, I don't have that much time at the moment.

how yes no 2
15-06-11, 00:27
In other words, the different sounds in

Touta (Gaulish) - Teuta (Pre-Germanic) - Θiuda (Gothic)- Tauta-(Lith. Dacian)

are because of different sound laws at work which indicate different languages ...

"ljudi" for people in Slavic languages seems to match Gothic version
btw. there is also word "četa" for military unit, which is of same origin I would say...

how yes no 2
15-06-11, 00:35
Also, this may sound very strange to you, but somehow Dacian words sound fine to me, whereas Thracian totally foreign. In spite that there are also some semantic similarities with Thracian (though less than with Dacian). Could that be of different sound laws in Dacian and Thracian where Dacian is more close to Lithuanian?

there is not much dacian and thracian words...mostly name places...

and Dacian sound ok to you because they end on -dava
which is also often the case in Slavic and I suppose in Baltic languages as well due to word for fort "tvrdjava" which is in fact coin word "tvrd" (strong) + dava (?)

though I was also comparing existing words on one of the threads and could find best match with Illyrian words, somewhat worse match with Dacian and almost no match with Thracian...

this would place Slavic people perhaps between Illyrians and Dacians, e.g. as Scordisci and Triballi, while Dacians might be proto-Balts actually... Russian primary chronicle does place early Slavs on Danube in places that do match Triballi and Scordisci and Pannonians ...and medieval Byzantine authors sometimes use name Triballi as alternative name for Serbs...




Perhaps there are sound law in such changes?

English Dacian Lithuanian Russian

good geras geras horoshii Dacian Lithuanian "g" to Rusian "h"
mapple klevas klevas klion Dacian Lithuanian "v-(as)" to "n"
dry sausas sausas suhoi Dacian Lithuanian "s" to Russian "h"
cold galtis šaltis holod Dacian "g" to Lith. "š" and Russ. "h"
stone akmon akmuo kamen Dacian "on" to Lith. "uo" Russ "ka"


Both Lith. and Dacian have endings noun endings as/a/is,
adjectives in -us and -as -a

out of those 5 words, first two have no matches at all in Serbian (although all 5 have matches in Russian), which i guess indicates more far a way area of influence...

good - 'dobro' in Serbian, no match for words above
in fact word "gore" means 'worse' and 'up'

maple - "javor"
"klen" is something else, think kind of fish... sometimes used in pejorative sense to say someone he is stupid...

remaining 3 words
english dacian lithuanian russian | serbian
dry sausas sausas suhoi | suvo (dry), suša (long dry whether) Dacian Lithuanian "s" to Russian "h"
cold galtis šaltis holod | hladno Dacian "g" to Lith. "š" and Russ. "h"
stone akmon akmuo kamen | kamen Dacian "on" to Lith. "uo" Russ "ka"

based on those few examples Lithuanian seems better fit to Dacian than Slavic languages... but that is what i expected as well..... because I did map thraco-Cimmerians and I2a2 to western linear pottery (they all show correlation with spread along Danube and north-northwest of Black sea), while Dacia is east linear pottery...
in fact, origin from Dacians can explain why Balts very rarely have I2a2 unlike Slavs.... think that I2a2 came to Dacia only with early Slavic people...though it probably was present in what is now Moldavia and along Danube...

I2a2 are Serians/Cimmerians.... they mixed with R1a Balto-Slavs to give Slavs, while Balts probably after retreating from Dacia mixed with people of finish origin who lived in Baltic area and thus have lot of haplogroup N besides R1a.... that is why Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... he doesnot say Slavs are Zeruiani (Serians) and he also doesnot say that all Balto-Slavs come from it, just Slavs...
Seneca mentions Serians in europe as: 1) daring to cross frozen Danube on foot - which sets them as living around danube 2) vex (rule over) scattered Scythians
this directly implies that Scythians were early (Balto)-Slav R1a people, and Serians were I2a who ruled over some of those.... thus, the language of I2a Serians should account for inovations in Slavic that makes it different from Balto-Slavic (and Baltic languages that stayed more or less in form of Balto-Slavic)...


I wonder if language of Serians might have been Celtic, Germanic or Iranian originally...

if you look at west linear pottery, the narrow yellow range in Bulgaria along Danube would later be Triballi
and Scordisci came from upper Danube that is also in yellow...


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif
(note that south areas like Italy, Spain are I2a1 and not I2a2)

iapetoc
15-06-11, 02:05
Based on the list of reconstructed Dacian words, there are more similarities between those Dacian words and Lithuanian than between Lithuanian and Slavic (ie Russian) equivalents of the same words.

This extreme similarity should be explained somehow. Should Latvian and Prussian words were compared, there would be even more similar words between Dacian and Baltic languages.

One explanation to this similarity can be about timing in comparing languages, which also plays a role - Dacian stoped developed at 4th century, while Slavic languages started developing their differences from that point on, and therefore, there are more similarities betweeen Lithuanian (which is very consevative) and Dacian than between Lithuanian and Slavic at this point of development).

Regarding sound laws - I have posted a reference to some articles (sorry it is a bit longish and complex :sad-2:) where the authors claims that Dacian is an Eastern Baltic language because it underwent sound change typical also for Lithuanian, ks - sk, while Western Baltic languages (Prussian) don't have it.


there is also the christianity times,
remamber that original Slavic cultures are the ones who connected with CYrillic Alphabet.
perhaps a full slavonization had happened that times, or a reform and reconstruction of ancient languages,

just think of a rulling class that promotes the bible and an alphabet in tribal, same time, that creates a literature same time all the area of expand that have a common basis of language and written, the more powerfull the reform of cyrillic the more results,

just think in Alaska what had happened, in some islands people still speak Russian although in USA,
the cyrillic eliminated many pre-slavic and forced a united Slavic culture,
that means that differences from Samara, Urals to Croatia differences should have been bigger, but cyrillic flat them all, and bring closer the language,

LeBrok
15-06-11, 05:51
Perhaps there are sound law in such changes?

English Dacian Lithuanian Russian

good geras geras horoshii Dacian Lithuanian "g" to Rusian "h"
mapple klevas klevas klion Dacian Lithuanian "v-(as)" to "n"
dry sausas sausas suhoi Dacian Lithuanian "s" to Russian "h"
cold galtis šaltis holod Dacian "g" to Lith. "š" and Russ. "h"
stone akmon akmuo kamen Dacian "on" to Lith. "uo" Russ "ka"


Both Lith. and Dacian have endings noun endings as/a/is,
adjectives in -us and -as -a

That's interesting Dagne, good job, and very intriguing.

LeBrok
15-06-11, 06:04
there is also the christianity times,
remamber that original Slavic cultures are the ones who connected with CYrillic Alphabet.
perhaps a full slavonization had happened that times, or a reform and reconstruction of ancient languages,

just think of a rulling class that promotes the bible and an alphabet in tribal, same time, that creates a literature same time all the area of expand that have a common basis of language and written, the more powerfull the reform of cyrillic the more results,

,

Interesting, and at first glance it made sense. Then I thought that Poland and Czechs didn't take faith from orthodox, but from Rome. Plus all bibles and books were written in Latin and german till 14th hundreds, the mas in church was in latin till end of 18 hundreds. On top of it uneducated population, at 90 percentile of all population, was living in villages till 18 hundreds too.
I (being polish) can understand 95% of serb vocabulary how yes know posts as Serb translation, when comparing to other languages.
As intriguing as it is, we can rest this case.

iapetoc
15-06-11, 13:42
Interesting, and at first glance it made sense. Then I thought that Poland and Czechs didn't take faith from orthodox, but from Rome. Plus all bibles and books were written in Latin and german till 14th hundreds, the mas in church was in latin till end of 18 hundreds. On top of it uneducated population, at 90 percentile of all population, was living in villages till 18 hundreds too.
I (being polish) can understand 95% of serb vocabulary how yes know posts as Serb translation, when comparing to other languages.
As intriguing as it is, we can rest this case.


nope,
they both accept from cyrill, that time was not catholic and orthodox, so your question is answered,

you may read the life of cyrill, the rome just forbid him to teach the germans, not the rest,
in fact cyrill and method wrote in Bohemian language, cause there they transalate the bibble, remamber that cyrill is the 3rd translation of old testament and 2nd of new testament

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Moravia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyril_and_Method

in fact their comments if you read them are named

evangelium slovenicum via method

in fact due to some pre-latin missionairies they used the Latin language not the Greek,

remember that time there were not katholics not orthodox, we are before schisma,
simply Roman church did allowed other language except Latin in the testimony,
while the Con/polis church allow testimony to be in another language than Greek,
remamber that at that time the difference of churches was the language,

Jerusalem Hebrew+greek
Antiocheian Arabic+greek
Alaxandreia Egyptian-Koptic +Greek
Rome Latin +greek
Con/plolis Greek +Latin

then started the slavonic patriarchate in Latin some and in Slavic +Greek to some,
after were the schisma and after the UNIA-tes
700-800 years after started the German translation and reformation


that means that the language that first translate considered slavonic is the Great moravia language,
so a reformation and first literature was priviledge of some and first slavonic schools and faculties used the cirillic language and alphabet, that reconstruct the Slavic language,

that means that words enter some areas, while the grammar bacame same to all.

you can compare with καθαρευουσα a test in Greece,
greece was 90% uneducated in 1800, a new form of language name 'cleaning' in 1940, 120 years after 66% of people knew the language, that means in 3 generations language change, from demotic ancient and dialects to the new form,

think that slavic how many years were Elit in these areas.

with the above I don't claim that all people learned Slavic, simply some smaller forms of tribal languages, some other languages lost, and big diferences among pre-slavic became smoother.
just think what happened with koine in Greek language,

LeBrok
15-06-11, 18:35
The point was that influence of translated bible on Slavic language was negligible. It wasn't a force uniting Slavic languages.


you can compare with καθαρευουσα a test in Greece,
greece was 90% uneducated in 1800, a new form of language name 'cleaning' in 1940, 120 years after 66% of people knew the language, that means in 3 generations language change, from demotic ancient and dialects to the new form,



Now this is the force of modern public education, plus newspapers, books, and national radio. You can't compare it to few missionaries teaching bible in villages from time to time.

how yes no 2
15-06-11, 21:06
Iapetoc,
you are grossly overstating role of christianisation...Slavic people had common language much before they were turned into Christians... turning barbarians into Christians was a way for Romans and Greeks to try put under control people they called barbarians... another dimension is that churches are organisations that tend to make lot of effort to extend their influence...that did reflect in process of creation of some nations and have caused many wars, but it is not what spread languages... be sure of that...
besides Christianity is way too confused teaching (made of two contradicting ethics) to have such power... I think languages are spread with more advanced material civilization, with better life standard, through witty assimilation that makes people feel they don't belong to older ethnic group and making them feel belong to new ones... as Roman empire did by thoughtfully confusing names of regions and by granting everyone into position of Roman citizens regardless of origin....

besides so called church Slavonic is somewhat weird language that was not really understandable for most Slavic people... at least in Serbia typically only priests can somewhat understand it.. and it was like that in past as well....I am not versed in linguistic, or speaker of other Slavic languages except of Serbo-Croatian, but the church Slavonic is to my ear and to my reading capabilities by far most foreign and most hard to understand of all Slavic languages....and following your logic it should be source of all and thus most easy to understand....

in medieval period, while usage of church Slavonic was used by Serb writers to write books, our literature was poor and far away from masses and most people were illiterate... when Vuk Karadzic came with new phonetic alphabet and key line "write as you speak, read as it is written" that extended not just on phonetic alphabet but also on vocabulary used, situation turned into opposite - suddenly there was lot of good writers and lot of literate people.... point is church Slavonic was essentially foreign, artificial language not understandable by common people... it was not advancing language spread, it was instead slowing down cultural development... Vuk Karadzic had to fight lot of opposition coming from church people in order to bring every day speech into literature.. making literature available to everyone (not just to those who spend years in monasteries learning that weird language) took a way monopoly over education and literature from church...

iapetoc
16-06-11, 06:42
The point was that influence of translated bible on Slavic language was negligible. It wasn't a force uniting Slavic languages.



Now this is the force of modern public education, plus newspapers, books, and national radio. You can't compare it to few missionaries teaching bible in villages from time to time.

are you sure?

from 1453 (the fall of istanbull until 1820, the only who knew to read and write were few rich people and the church inn Greece and in balkans,
a greek in an area that Greek language was forbiden like in Armenia Kars, knew xristos Anesti (Christ ressurected) not to spell it and write it but the whole 10 minute pray song (hymn)
in fact in many areas were Greek were forbiden the cristians learn whole church testimonies by heart,

Nop in fact I believe it was not from time time, but the ones who wanted to be priest learn a certain form and terminology in the beginning of Slavic churches, which later with times became different, espacially after schisma,

just think that majority of people learn letters and reading by priests and not teachers, or teachers also were priests, and how many big schools existed?
in fact at that time the only universities that allow to teach should be theocratic and perhaps even aristotle was teached under the 'priest supervisor' if teached,
remember we are talking about 'the earth is flat' times.
before crusades were faith was ultimate weapon and a cleric was half ruller,
we are talking to last Genocides of polytheist in Greece at 850 Ad.

LeBrok
16-06-11, 08:27
I'm sure.
From 1000 AD the dominant force was Latin in schools and church in Poland. And yet polish is mutually intelligible with other Slavic languages from north to south and west to east.
Till 1000 AD Poland was a pagan country with weak influence from Great Moravs Christianity. In 966 Poland was baptized, mainly for political reasons, not by will of people. Through 10 hundreds there were pagan revolts. It means that ordinary people were not christians and didn't learn much from Cyril bible.
I would say that the biggest divide between farthest Slavic languages is like Italian and Spanish or Portuguese.

zanipolo
16-06-11, 11:41
Now this is the force of modern public education, plus newspapers, books, and national radio. You can't compare it to few missionaries teaching bible in villages from time to time.

Its more like racism against ones own national cultures...........like franco's castilian "wars" against the catalan and galician people, although less violent
It still goes on today even though European governments have signed a declaration to stop doing it to enter the EU

zanipolo
16-06-11, 11:49
are you sure?

from 1453 (the fall of istanbull until 1820, the only who knew to read and write were few rich people and the church inn Greece and in balkans,
a greek in an area that Greek language was forbiden like in Armenia Kars, knew xristos Anesti (Christ ressurected) not to spell it and write it but the whole 10 minute pray song (hymn)
in fact in many areas were Greek were forbiden the cristians learn whole church testimonies by heart,

Nop in fact I believe it was not from time time, but the ones who wanted to be priest learn a certain form and terminology in the beginning of Slavic churches, which later with times became different, espacially after schisma,

just think that majority of people learn letters and reading by priests and not teachers, or teachers also were priests, and how many big schools existed?
in fact at that time the only universities that allow to teach should be theocratic and perhaps even aristotle was teached under the 'priest supervisor' if teached,
remember we are talking about 'the earth is flat' times.
before crusades were faith was ultimate weapon and a cleric was half ruller,
we are talking to last Genocides of polytheist in Greece at 850 Ad.

merchants, generals, priests, aristocrats all knew how to read and write, but.........only the nobility and the church where taught Latin.

As for the slavic illiterates, the numbers was very high due to the assimilation of races as they migrated westerly, so illyrians, dacians, vlachs, albanians, celts and whoever there was was forbidden to speak their language and could only speak slavic, a language foreign to them.
The "lingua franca" ( commerce language) for the merchant class was based on areas of trade. as well as the time period.

iapetoc
16-06-11, 13:10
I'm sure.
From 1000 AD the dominant force was Latin in schools and church in Poland. And yet polish is mutually intelligible with other Slavic languages from north to south and west to east.
Till 1000 AD Poland was a pagan country with weak influence from Great Moravs Christianity. In 966 Poland was baptized, mainly for political reasons, not by will of people. Through 10 hundreds there were pagan revolts. It means that ordinary people were not christians and didn't learn much from Cyril bible.
I would say that the biggest divide between farthest Slavic languages is like Italian and Spanish or Portuguese.

yes but from what I know poland was 2 language or 2 dialect speaking,
by what I know, and you can correct me, krakwy and St Stephans were slavivc people considered with connection with Slovakia almost same race, while Dantsich (however was written) Gdansk were considered Germans that time,
Perhaps that is the why Poland although slavic was in latin education, I think that kept until 1900.
hmm does Poland follow the same rules in syntax and endings like rest slavic do?

iapetoc
16-06-11, 13:13
merchants, generals, priests, aristocrats all knew how to read and write, but.........only the nobility and the church where taught Latin.

As for the slavic illiterates, the numbers was very high due to the assimilation of races as they migrated westerly, so illyrians, dacians, vlachs, albanians, celts and whoever there was was forbidden to speak their language and could only speak slavic, a language foreign to them.
The "lingua franca" ( commerce language) for the merchant class was based on areas of trade. as well as the time period.

well I don't know about forbiden, but I know that military was forced to speak the King language,

Dagne
16-06-11, 13:17
well I don't know about forbiden, but I know that military was forced to speak the King language,

I have lost the connection to Dacian Language ... What is this dispute all about?

iapetoc
16-06-11, 13:34
I have lost the connection to Dacian Language ... What is this dispute all about?


Georgyev and some others believe that south Thracian is the pre-slavic
Duridanov is argue that an Albano-dacian connection is the language of thracians,
and also exist Rusu.

I just say that the wide Slavic of today is based upon the expand of cyrillic who was based in Moravian language or Dialect,
Lebrok believes that changes from faith were little, due to Latin speaking Polish church.
while I believe that krakowy was speaking dialect of Moravian

I am just try to find if some areas were peacefully changed by cyrillic to a new culture that connected old dialects and language to a new form, while expell other.

for example in another thread HOW YES NO believes that Serbian is as Celtic as Slavic, and Daci more Germanic,

Personally I believe that cyrillic reunite and reform languages from dalmatia to urals and from gdansk to Varna, to a more common form to a more stable form, and some older languages and dialect were lost,
It was the basis uppon literature in medieval and schools were based to stabilizze Slavic sounds and words,

In some areas Slavonic could be forced or was a Fushion language due to was spoken by elit (priests, military and kings) or the opposite slavonic were forbiden due to german considered speaking people.

remember that daci in Greek is an alternate for wolf Δακος, roman wolf mother
bite virb ισ δαγκωνω
and Drago a symbol of Dacian (serpent wolf scepter) exist in Athens Drakon law's
also a slavic name Dragan

Greeks call them not daci but Daki (Dakestan?)

for example
is it -ua or uva the end of daci language?

A famous roman ancient ( i missed his name now) that lived there sais that he learned very easy the language, (moesian near latin???)

in fact the most ancient place names are like thracian ending in -is -sse - isa -eda while the later are --oua -ova

an example is the -para -pera with river dnieper (dniepera)
pera exist also in Greek and means far, there, away,
-para is considered Thracian not Daci.

a daci city in Dalmatia is name Germ-idav mention by prolemy.

the Balaur which is considered daci word and folklore
exist in Greek pelasgian and Homeric also,

the myth of St George who killed the dragon
in Greek Apollo who killed Python
in pre-greek Pelasgian the Βελλεροφοντης Veller-ophontis
or Bellerophon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellerophon

so although seems familiar to Valtic-slavic, instead it is connected with Greek also and south Thracian,

remember that ballaur of daci or Beller of Greeks is the IE Homeric Ελλερον
Elleron is the pit of snake, the dragon's nest, in english is Hell
ελλυες are the small poisonous snakes the northen eel modern Greek χελι Helli

now as you see the ballaur exist in Daci and Albania, but also existed in Hettit as Illuyanka
and in Greek as Veller-ophontis Bellerophon,

the possibility that this myth is also in India but in Hettit also could mean that Thracians did not came from Baltic, but from minor asia, since Hettits and Illuanka passed from minor asia to Balkans,
that means that Thracian could be the ones who reach german baltic, although I know that for some that is upside down,

in fact that be true if and i repeat if getae are Goths and Germi-dava means Germanopolis
and daki->daci is Deutch.

in another post somewhere I post the 4 mycenae
mycenae makenae mycian moesian and a possible 5th the moschenae (moschoi)
the connection of daci ballaur and some other could mean south origin and not baltic,

the remnants of daci language are few, as also the thracian, the connection with north is also with south and with minor asia, and persia or avars (dagestan)
also the connection of daci drago scepters (wolf serpents-chimairas) is with rome wolf mother, turkish grey wolf, greek drakon laws, and phillistines Drakon god.


the bellow is off the record, probably a coincidence.
Turkish word for mountain is Dag Greek Νταγ to latin form -> Ntac Dac Dagestan -Daci
Besides the medieval name of south dagestan was Albania.

back to point
besides most the Getae king names are in -us which is also Latin or Greek or -es or -on etc,
yes I know that Baltic also having ending with -is -as etc,
try to connect greek water υδωρ u as ou in you but short δ as th in they ω ας 1.5 time of o and ρ ασ r
the most amazing with modern languages is with a Baltic word for water !!!!

Sarmizegetusa the dacian capital is like Hettit or Hattians Ηattusa not -ova.

Dagne
16-06-11, 15:29
Rusu and some others believe that ancient Dacian were like Latin and not like slavic,
Georgyev and some others believe that south Thracian is the pre-slavic
Duridanov is argue that an Albano-dacian connection is the language of thracians,

I just say that the wide Slavic of today is based upon the expand of cyrillic who was based in Moravian language or Dialect,
Lebrok believes that changes from faith were little, due to Latin speaking Polish church.
while I believe that krakowy was speaking dialect of Moravian

I am just try to find if some areas were peacefully changed by cyrillic to a new culture that connected old dialects and language to a new form, while expell other.

for example in another thread HOW YES NO believes that Serbian is as Celtic as Slavic, and Daci more Germanic,

Personally I believe that cyrillic reunite and reform languages from dalmatia to urals and from gdansk to Varna, to a more common form to a more stable form, and some older languages and dialect were lost,
It was the basis uppon literature in medieval and schools were based to stabilizze Slavic sounds and words,

In some areas Slavonic could be forced or was a Fushion language due to was spoken by elit (priests, military and kings) or the opposite slavonic were forbiden due to german considered speaking people.

remember that daci in Greek is an alternate for wolf Δακος, roman wolf mother
bite virb ισ δαγκωνω
and Drago a symbol of Dacian (serpent wolf scepter) exist in Athens Drakon law's
also a slavic name Dragan

Greeks call them not daci but Daki (Dakestan?)

:rolleyes2::confused2::rolleyes2:
Could we then compare words (sound laws if we able to) of Dacian to those other languages? 4895 All the reconstructed Dacian words are listed there, one may add there another column to compare with greek, slavic, latin, germanic albanian ...

That will be something substantial in persuading others, wouldn't it?

how yes no 2
16-06-11, 21:28
remember that daci in Greek is an alternate for wolf Δακος, roman wolf mother
bite virb ισ δαγκωνω
and Drago a symbol of Dacian (serpent wolf scepter) exist in Athens Drakon law's
also a slavic name Dragan
Dragan is typically Serbian name... can occur in Macedonia perhaps, but never heard of other Slavic people with name Dragan....
e.g. it is not used by Croats or Slovenes...

there is more to it, Serbs are related to wolf...
also Lycia whose several leaders had name Sarpedon (which could mean leader of Sarpe) are related to wolf....

even further, I read on net that Troians are named Cimmerians by some authors (e.g. Herodotous and Strabo, but I need to verify that)....
in Troian war, on Trojan side are:


Dardanians led by Aeneas, Zeleians, Adrasteians, Percotians, Pelasgians, Thracians, Ciconian spearmen, Paionian archers, Halizones, Mysians, Phrygians, Maeonians, Miletians, Lycians led by Sarpedon and Carians.

Nothing is said of the Trojan language;

the Carians are specifically said to be barbarian-speaking, and the allied contingents are said to have spoken multiple languages, requiring orders to be translated by their individual commanders.[70]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trojan_War







a daci city in Dalmatia is name Germ-idav mention by prolemy.
this is strong clue...
word German origin from Gomer = Cimmerians...




in fact that be true if and i repeat if getae are Goths and Germi-dava means Germanopolis
and daki->daci is Deutch.



the remnants of daci language are few, as also the thracian, the connection with north is also with south and with minor asia, and persia or avars (dagestan)
also the connection of daci drago scepters (wolf serpents-chimairas) is with rome wolf mother, turkish grey wolf, greek drakon laws, and phillistines Drakon god.
Chimeras is dragon from Lycia...it does sound as Cimmerians



Sarmizegetusa the dacian capital is like Hettit or Hattians Ηattusa not -ova. idea: Sarmizegetusa sounds as a mix of two tribal names: Sarmatians and Getae..




the Balaur which is considered daci word and folklore
exist in Greek pelasgian and Homeric also,

the myth of St George who killed the dragon
in Greek Apollo who killed Python
in pre-greek Pelasgian the Βελλεροφοντης Veller-ophontis
or Bellerophon

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellerophon

so although seems familiar to Valtic-slavic, instead it is connected with Greek also and south Thracian,

remember that ballaur of daci or Beller of Greeks is the IE Homeric Ελλερον
Elleron is the pit of snake, the dragon's nest, in english is Hell
ελλυες are the small poisonous snakes the northen eel modern Greek χελι Helli

now as you see the ballaur exist in Daci and Albania, but also existed in Hettit as Illuyanka and in Greek as Veller-ophontis Bellerophon,

"ala" in Slavic languages can be word of same origin...it is about monster, dragon...


now, about relation to wolf


Common among the Kashubs of what is now northern Poland, and the Serbs and Slovenes, was the belief that if a child was born with hair, a birthmark or a caul on their head, they were supposed to possess shape-shifting abilities. Though capable of turning into any animal they wished, it was commonly believed that such people preferred to turn into a wolf.[20]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Werewolf

wolf is also unofficial national mammal animal of Serbs
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_symbols_of_Serbia


and now to what I think ...

first, let me remind you, that Russian primary chronicle places early Slavs (in times before Roman empire has spread northwards) around Danube, in Thrace and Pannonia, and also in Noricum... that would map to some of Thracian tribes (e.g. Triballi), to Pannonians, Scordisci and Veneti
than pushed by Romans they go to north to Vistula where we find Veneti... and than few centuries later Jordanes states that Slavs are of Venethi race...
note that Russian primary chronicle does not place early Slavs in Dacia...
btw. let me remind you that Thracian cult of Sabazios (Saba Zeus or Serbian Zeus) has same hand gesture that is used by Serbs...

in my theory Veneti are represented in Greek mythology as wind gods - Anemoi/Venti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi) and are proto-Slavs...
I can map east wind god Eurus to tribal names Russians and Thracians, west wind god Zephyros (born in caves of Thrace) to tribal names of Serbs, Serres and Scordisci, and his son Karpus to tribal name of Croats

if Slavs are Veneti, than Balts would be north of Veneti... north most Venti wind God was Borea (Boreans could in fact be about Borussia/Prussia or Belarus...), thus Balts would be people living north of Borea - Hyperboreans, ...


Homer placed Boreas in Thrace, and therefore Hyperborea in his opinion dwelled somewhere to the north of Thracian territory, perhaps Dacia.[8] Sophocles (Antigone, 980-987), Aeschylus (Agamemnon, 193; 651), Simonides of Ceos (Schol. on Apollonius Rhodius, 1. 121) and Callimachus (Delian, [IV] 65) also placed Boreas in Thrace.[9] Other ancient writers however believed the home of Boreas or the Rhipean Mountains sat in a different location. For example, Hecataeus of Miletus believed that the Rhipean Mountains sat adjacent to the Black Sea.[10] Alternatively Pindar placed the home of Boreas, the Rhipean Mountains and Hyperborea all near the Danube.[11] Heraclides Ponticus and Antimachus in contrast identified the Rhipean Mountains with the Alps, and the Hyperboreans as a Celtic tribe (perhaps the Helvetii) who sat just beyond them.[12] Aristotle placed the Rhipean mountains on the borders of Scythia, and Hyperborea further north.[13] Hecataeus of Abdera and others believed Hyperborea was Britain (see below).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperborea

thus, there are clues that Hyperboreans were Dacians...

note that north most Venti wind God Borea is still in Thrace... which is consistent with Russian primary chronicle not placing Slavs in Dacia


Lithuanians and Letonians may derive name from Appolo's and Artemis mother Leto...


anyway, this is key clue


Another late source, Aelian, also links Leto with wolves and Hyperboreans:
Wolves are not easily delivered of their young, only after twelve days and twelve nights, for the people of Delos maintain that this was the length of time that it took Leto to travel from the Hyperboreoi to Delos."[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto

Lithuanians and Latvians may be Hyperboreans whose tribal name is based on name of Leto...
Hyperborean is not tribal name, it just means north of Boreans, or north of north most Venti (I think Venti map to Veneti, and to proto-Slavs)


Leto may have the same Lycian origin as "Leda", meaning "woman/wife" in the ancient Lycian language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto

btw. we have word "lady" as spread everywhere but curiously originating from english language...

Lycia is related to wolves... and it could be place of origin of most Balto-Slavs and further...note that Lycia is mentioned, together with Sherdana, among sea peoples as Lukka..note that Lycians are rulled by Sarpedon (don of Serbs?) and are related to wolf, note that Lycians are in Trojan war on side of Trojans, note that Trojans are said to be Cimmerians, and later Cappadocians are first called Cimmerians and later by strabo white Syrians, while state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it according to Bavarian geographer... note that sea peoples conquest of Sherdana, Lukka, Tjekker and Pelast (Serbs, Lycians, czechs and Poles?) happens short after Trojan war... short after Trojan war is also time when Veneti are kicked out from Paphlagonia due to joint conquest with Cimmerians.... short after that is also when Etruscans or Rasena move out from Asia minor due to hunger...

now, note that primary god of Asia minor Teshub was in language of Hatti was Taru which is almost identical name as Germanic Thor... note that even one of Germanic tribes has name Hatti
note that Hittite call same God Tarhun which maps to Baltic Perkunas and slavic Perun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Teshub

in my opinion Hatti were Kelts, Goths.... R1b mostly
and Hittite were Balto-Slavs... R1a and I2a

Hittite moved in Asia minor after Hatti went further into Europe
Hittite were moved out under pressure from south and from Greece, mostly by defeat of Trojans, removal of Veneti and movement of Etruscans/Rasena (who contributed to R1a in north Italy)

iapetoc
16-06-11, 21:38
:rolleyes2::confused2::rolleyes2:
Could we then compare words (sound laws if we able to) of Dacian to those other languages? 4895 All the reconstructed Dacian words are listed there, one may add there another column to compare with greek, slavic, latin, germanic albanian ...

That will be something substantial in persuading others, wouldn't it?

sorry the problem is mine. i can not open acrobat.

k i ll fix it

iapetoc
16-06-11, 21:49
Dragan is typically Serbian name... can occur in Macedonia perhaps, but never heard of other Slavic people with name Dragan....
e.g. it is not used by Croats or Slovenes...





by what I know drakon means captain, chief, does it mean the same to serbian also? (dragan)

yes i know about ala, it is clear IE,
i don't know about Serbs being from minor asia, or celtic or daci or thracian, but I know Carians are connected with Corinth, Carnius Apollo, and Carinthia in Slovenia,
personally I believe that are ancient tribes melting pot that is connected with Illyro-celtic, south Thracians and north Moravians, not with minor asia, it is a culture that created around the aquatic system from thessaloniki to Donau.

the case of white Serbia is another story, and i don't know.

how yes no 2
16-06-11, 22:45
i don't know about Serbs being from minor asia, or celtic or daci or thracian, but I know Carians are connected with Corinth, Carnius Apollo, and Carinthia in Slovenia,
I do not know where Serbs came from originally...
my guess is that they may origin from Cimmerians/Serians
but point is in distant times Cimmerians/Serians lived in both Asia, Asia minor and Europe... we do know that I2a was present in Europe long time ago...

http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011_05_01_archive.html


btw. read again second part of my previous post, it was edited later with some interesting ideas...



by what I know drakon means captain, chief, does it mean the same to serbian also? (dragan)
nope...
it's just a name
most similar word is dear, darling - "drag"

though word "drak"/ "drekavac" means something like dragon but smaller...
"dreka"is shouting...


the case of white Serbia is another story, and i don't know.

I think at some point there was mix of I2a2 proto-Serbs and R1a proto-Russians...

a wild guess but perhaps it happened around lake Van when Cimmerians were allied and rulling over Rusa (Hebrew mentioned Rosch people?)...Cimmerians could originally have been Sumerians, while Croats would originally be related Hurians... they have merged into Balto-Slavs (originally R1a) in Hititite state, where they have also adopted IE language..

Germanic haplogroup I people may origin from province of Kerman (also Germania), in Persia, Iran... ... they may have received IE language from R1b in Asia minor and together moved in Europe as IE Kelts/Hatti/Getea/Goths... note that some Roman historians thought that word German meens 'seed' and that it came to existence in order to name original Celts... on other hand, according to Josephus original Celts were Cimmerians or Gomer

Josephus related the Biblical figure Gomer to Galatia (or perhaps to Gaul in general). "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites." Antiquities of the Jews, I:6. Others have related Gomer to Cimmerians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

iapetoc
17-06-11, 02:12
how yes no that is another story and dagne will be angry cause second time i ruin her thread.

sory dagne,

Hattians were not IE,
just think
Hattica is athens
Hath -rasians is etruscans
Hath-cretans are eteo-cretans
hath-edi are the other name near phillistines in palaistine

it is mostly a latin and semitic language, that language is connected with Ugarit and minor Asia much before IEans and before hettits.
the hath- is used before the smaller tribal nation
it could be, but I don't know Hath-syrians ->Assyrians
the older language that pelasgian used is half latin and half-ugarit,

well in your story which i have understand Leto comes from Hypervorea to greece and after to minor asia,
Leda is another story,
well the case of a R1a that came from minor asia to balkans suits me more cause copper was found in Egypt and cyprus much before in north of caucas, in fact i believe that R1a came in 2 waves 1 small from minor asia, and 1 bigger at the know slavic invasions,

in your theory you support that thracians came from minor asia and not from north, as I understand,
now what about Vrygians? were they celtic or baltic. I don't know times and dates i have to search it for days,
all I know is that sarpedon was connected with Cretans,


Sory dagne i will answer tomorrow your Daci thread.

zanipolo
17-06-11, 09:32
The best and least nationistic and honest book I read about the area you are concerned with is:

Goths in Ancient Poland by Jan Czarnecki

It will clear up a lot of your queries, lingustically, migration, archeology , races etc etc

iapetoc
17-06-11, 15:16
The best and least nationistic and honest book I read about the area you are concerned with is:

Goths in Ancient Poland by Jan Czarnecki

It will clear up a lot of your queries, lingustically, migration, archeology , races etc etc

ty Zanipolo

Dagne
19-06-11, 15:29
[QUOTE=Taranis;373139In a nutshell, the poster argues that between Dacian and the Baltic languages, there is a partial match (of common innovations) with South (ie, actually West) Baltic (ie, Old Prussian) and also with East Baltic languages.

If these observed patterns are really the case (ie, partial share of innovations), this casts questions on the relationship of the Baltic languages. Especially because, given the attestation and sprad of Dacian, we have to assume that the split of Baltic was considerably earlier. Of course, this begs the question of how the Slavic languages are related with this.

What popped up sporadically in the past is the observation that some of the Baltic languages (ie, Latvian) actually share common innovations with Slavic absent in the other Baltic languages. This raises the question if the Baltic languages are actually "paraphyletic", basically that the Balto-Slavic languages split up in various Baltic languages along with Proto-Slavic. If this really was the case (I'm not 100% convinced yet), then this would certainly leave the possibility that Dacian was indeed part of Balto-Slavic.

Now, what would be really interesting (to verify this) is identifying common sound laws.[/QUOTE]

I was reading an article of a Finnish linguist about early Baltic loan to Finnic languages (Finnish and Sami) . According to his observation the early loans (over 350 words) happened around 1000 BC from Proto Balto-Slavic, which then split to West and East Baltic and Slavic languages. Nothing was said about Dacian -Thracian, but according to this theory the Dacian and Thracian languages could have split from Proto Balto-Slavic at that time, too.

Taranis
20-06-11, 17:02
I was reading an article of a Finnish linguist about early Baltic loan to Finnic languages (Finnish and Sami) . According to his observation the early loans (over 350 words) happened around 1000 BC from Proto Balto-Slavic, which then split to West and East Baltic and Slavic languages. Nothing was said about Dacian -Thracian, but according to this theory the Dacian and Thracian languages could have split from Proto Balto-Slavic at that time, too.

Ah yes, that might make sense. As mentioned before, there are a considerable number of Indo-European loans (of various stages, it seems) into the Uralic languages (or, at least into the Saamo-Finnic branch). It would be interesting the quantify them some time by origin (Proto-Indo-European, Balto-Slavic, Baltic, Germanic, Slavic) in order to see how well that corresponds. Unfortunately, this would probably be an immense side project and I don't really have the time at the moment to pursue that.

iapetoc
20-06-11, 21:08
Well dagne I made my promise,

If the reconstructed are really ancient Dacian, that means that anciet Dacian is a connection among south slavic and north Baltic,

the pronounce I don't know,
the connection with German I don't know,
the connection with Greco-Aryan is obvius but very changed,
The connection with Albanian lies in Germidava colony (Thermidava)


now about reading it

τ δ θ
π β φ
κ γ χ
are the allowed families

θ = th in Thus
δ = th in They
γ = wh in what or why
x = ch or h like h in Hurians or ch in achaic
υ = small short u the half time of U in Uranus mix of u and i (giota)
ου = Long and strong U
η = i as in in or e modern is e ancient was a double time i or a ie sounds like ii or ie




Dacian
word
Meaning
Modern cognates
(same meaning unless stated)
From wiki source


Lithuanian
(same meaning unless stated)
Piked up from the Great Lithuanian Dictionary
http://lkzd.lki.lt/Zodynas/Visas.asp
Ancient Greek
Hellenistc Greek
Modern Greek


toponyms etc














*aba, apa[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-22%23cite_note-22)
water, river
upė (Lith.) apă (Rom.)
-
ποταμος
ποταμος
ποταμι
*akmon[28] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-27%23cite_note-27)
stone, rock
akmuo (Lith.)
akmuons (Old Latv.)
akmuo
ακμων
ακμων
αμονι
*albo[32] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu196790-31%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu196790-31)
white


-






*alda (noun),
*alta- (adj.)[33] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-32%23cite_note-32)
swamp, waterlogged
aleti (Lith.: "flooded")
aluots (Latv.: "source")
ałt (Arm.: "filthy")
-
Ελος
Ελος




Ελουντα


*alm-
to flow, to stream


almėti






*amalas
mistletoe


amalas
αμαρας


You mean the plant?
αμαραντος
*auras, *auro[37] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1967137_and_143-36%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1967137_and_143-36)
water, moisture, pool


-




Αυρα the sea water breeze (wind from sea)
*axi-
black


-






*baidas
frightening, repulsive


baidytis (arkliai baidos – horses are scared)










*bal
warrior


-
Πολ
Πολεμιστης
Πολεμος


Πολεμος warrior, παλαιστης (wrestling fighter)
Πολεμιστης
(in fact polski means warrior in a Greco thracian, but I don't know if it is connected)
*balas,*balos[39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1969150_and_163-38%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1969150_and_163-38)
strong [39] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1969150_and_163-38%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1969150_and_163-38)


-
Πελεος
παλαιστης
Παλαιστης
strong enough to wrestle
*balas
white


baltas




S Slavic Bialo
*berza
birch-tree


beržas






*bur, buris[43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu196797_and_132-42%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu196797_and_132-42)
plentiful, rich , swollen [43] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu196797_and_132-42%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu196797_and_132-42).


-






*brukla[44] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-43%23cite_note-43)
cranberry
brūkle (Latv.)
bruknė






*buta(s)[46] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-45%23cite_note-45)
house, hut, dwelling
bùtas, butà (Lith.)
buts (Latv.: "small house")
buttan (Old Pr.)
butas






*čuk-[50] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-49%23cite_note-49)
peak, summit
ciucă (Rom.)
-






*daba
character, nature


daba (old)






*daba
put in order, good [53] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1969151_and_158-52%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1969151_and_158-52)


daboti – take care of






*dava
city, fortress


-




Pelasgian theba?? θηβα
*degis
burning, shining


degti – to burn, degis – a burn (






*dina
place, area, plain


-
πεδιας
πεδιας
Πεδινο πεδι-αδα
*dikas
brave or strong, mighty


-




Could be connected with the justice of the strong? Δικαιος?
Could be not
*dita(s)[54] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-53%23cite_note-53)
light (noun), bright (adj.)
ditë "day" (Alb.)
-
Cydonian (crete) dia δια= day
Homric Διοφαντος dayseen
δειλι dei-li end of day
Διαφανος δειλινο
Not in use after 100 BC
*drasda
thrush (bird)


drazdas






*dribas, *drigas[56] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-55%23cite_note-55)
wild, restless
dribis, dribulis (Latv.:"a restless man")
drignis (Lith.)
drigantas ? (wild restless person)
Δρατων virb means rapture,
noun is δρακος
Δραστης


drig → Dras
Δραστης
*duia[59] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-58%23cite_note-58)
swamp or mist, drizzle
dujà (Lith.: both meanings)
dujs (Latv.: "dirty")
duja (old.)






*dumas
dark brown


dūmas (smoke) (old. the colour of smoke)






*galtis
sheet-ice, frost


šaltis (cold) šalna frost???






*genukla[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-Duridanov_1969_23.2C_90-61%23cite_note-Duridanov_1969_23.2C_90-61)
pasture, meadow
ganyklà (Lith.)
ganīkla (Latv.)
ganykla






*ger[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1967137_and_140-63%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1967137_and_140-63)
smart, awake[64] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1967137_and_140-63%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1967137_and_140-63)


-
Ιεραξ
εγερμενος
virb εγειρω
S Slavic gore
Γεραξ


εγειρω
εγερσις
Γερακι a smart bird Hawk


change mean from awake to 'to raise' εγερσις = rebellion, raise a house, raise high something
*geras[66] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-65%23cite_note-65)
good (-natured), kind
gēras (Lith.)
geras
Γηραιος
old man with great manners,
Γερασω to tread to be nice, hospitallity.
Κερασω virb
Γερασιμος name
kerasma treat
Κερναω my treat, my nice manners
*germas
hot, warm


-
Thermas
θερμας
Thermos
θερμος
Θερμος
*gilus[62] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-Duridanov_1969_23.2C_90-61%23cite_note-Duridanov_1969_23.2C_90-61)
deep
gilùs (Lith.)
dziļš (Latv.)
gillin (Old Pr.)
gilus






*gira (giria)
forest or mountain


giria






*granda[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-Duridanov_1969_25.2C_91-68%23cite_note-Duridanov_1969_25.2C_91-68)
plank
grandà (Lith.: "bridge-plank")
grandico (Old Pr.)
gruõdi (Latv.)
granda (old. a plank), grindys (floor)






*griva[69] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-Duridanov_1969_25.2C_91-68%23cite_note-Duridanov_1969_25.2C_91-68)
river-bed or river-mouth
grĩva (Latv.: "river-mouth")
greva (Lith.: "river-bed")
rėva
Κρηνη
Κρηβη Μακ
means the oposite
the fountain of the river, the area were water exits to surface


κρηνη
kaga[74] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-73%23cite_note-73)
sacred, holy
kazat′, skazat′ (Sl. "to tell", "to say")
-




Arbanitan Konga konge
means holy land in Albanian language
*kalas
catfish?


-
Γαλεος peacefull fish
Γαληνη peace quiet
Γαλεος
Γαληνος
Also in modern
*kapas
hill, slope


kapas (grave)
Σκαπτω (Ι dig a grave)
Σκαπανη (the tool to dig)




Σκεπη (the roof)


Σκεπαζω (Ι cover,
I burry something,
I hide)
Also
*kapura
hill


kapurnas (old. mossy hill)






*karpa
to cut, stone [77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1969114_and_205-76%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1969114_and_205-76)
karpe, karma (*karp-m-) 'stone' (Albanian) [77] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_reconstructed_Dacian_words#cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1969114_and_205-76%23cite_note-FOOTNOTERussu1969114_and_205-76)
Kirpti (to cut), kerpa (cuts)




The is a word Γαρβιλι
Garbili means the small cut stones
gravel But I don't know origin
*karsa
cave


karsa (old.)




ARE YOU SURE
Karst phainomena is a water runs phainomena in calcium or dolomite,
it took the name from a village in Croatia Carsto, it is considered modern word after a toponym
the before word was Carvea καρβεα (Carva)
*katas
stall, animal enclosure, fish-basin


-






*keda
chair, stool


kėdė






*kerba
swampy ground








There is a word κουρβα Kurva
probably from curv
means area protected by air, and area where water gother
*kerna
bush


kerna (old. bushy place)






*kerta
clearing in a wood


kerta ([he] cuts the wood), kirtimas, clearing in a wood






*kina
dry place in a swamp


-






*klevas
maple-tree


klevas






*krata
swampy place or pile, heap


krata (old. pile heap (of hey)






*kurta
grove, glade


-
Κιτρος Μακ
Κουρτα thess


Kitros
Σκουρτα
Κυρτος means convex
the land that is convex up is Κυρτο
or Σκουρτο, in GR Makedonian is Kitros


*lug-
swamp, morass


lūgnėtas (old. swampy, liūnas swapm, morass)
Ελος Ελωδης
Ελλυες (eels)
Λυχνιτις lake

Ελος Ελωδης
moving sand is λυχνις (Luchnis)



Ελος Ελωδης
if it is 'moving Λουνι (Luni)


*maska
pool, puddle


-






*medeka
glade, small wood


Medelis – a small tree (old. small wood)


Μαδερι Brygian word for stick of wood
Maderi
*musas
mould, moss


-
Μυκα
Μυκητες (fugus that live in moss)
μυξα
Μυκητας Μυξα
*nara(s)
river, brook


nara (old.)
Ναμα
holy water from spring
Αναμα
the church holy water
Ανημενος wet, baptised
*pala, *palma
swamp, bog


-






*pil-
to flow


pilti (to pour)
Πλεω Ι flow
S Slavic plew
πλεω
Πλεω
πλοιο (ship)
mostly S Slavic plew connect
*preida
pine-tree


-






*put-
to swell, thicken


putinti, pusti (old.)






*rabo, rebo
‘to move’ ‘to flow’ ‘be in motion’


Rebėti, reba (old. they move in a group, are in motion)




Reneti means the oposite
look bellow,
Rebeti
Ρεμπετης
Ρεμβαζω
means peacefull dreamer, the bellow
*ramus
peaceful, restful


ramus
Ρεμβω
I am in Nirvana,
Ι peacefully watch and philosophize
I pass the days in quiet




Ρεμβαζω
Ρεμβη
*rō(u)ka
drizzle, fine rain


ruokna (old., drizzle, haze) rūkas (mist, fog),


Β-ροχ-η
Βροχη
V-roch-i
rain
Βρεχω Ι make wet
Βροχη βρεχω
*rus-
to flow


rusenti
Ρεμα (river flow)
Ροη (flux)


also
*san-apa
confluence (of two rivers)


Santaka
San is like Greek Συν apa ποταμος




*sausas
dry


sausas






*sermas
river, river-current


-
Ρεμα
miss of se-


Ρεμα


*skabas
sharp, quick, lively


skubus
Hmmm
Aeolian pronounce
Gr is ks or sk
example
σκαπανη is the hoe but ksifei is the sword


Σκαπανη σκαπτω
*skaudus
painful, sad or powerful


skaudus
Same aeolian pronounce
ks =sk
οκσυς =οξυς
means drastical powerfull
Οξυς πονος = tremendus pain


Οξυς means acid
sharp, action of power, more power than metal,


also
*skuia
fir-tree


Skuja (pine or fir bark or needles)






*skumbras
hill, down


Skumbti (old) skubėti – to rash?






*spirus
fast, quick, rapid


spirus






*stendas
stiff, rigid, viscose


standus






*suka
tear (ripped), gap


sukti – to turn ? suka – turns






*suras
salty


sūrus






*taras
chatterer, gossiper


taraskonas (old.)
Homeric Θαρας




Θαρρος courage by words,
give courage to people by speak to overact.
In poetry is Θουριος
thurius
Θαρα +λεον
tharaleos means chatterer but able
bold in mouth and dare.
Θαρα + εισον
Θρασυς
thrasys means chatterer but not dare, coward chatterer,
bold in mouth not in action
*tauta
people, nation, country


tauta
Τοιουτοι
(tiuto)
means a group of same people, a tribe, a team


Example τοιουτοι means strange unions,
gay pride are toioytoi,
whatever does not belong to our team is τοιουτοι,


*tiras
bare, barren, desolate


tyrai – wilderness (bare, barren, desolate)






*tut-
blow, smoke


-




Albanian Duch????
Duchani
*upa
river


upė
Ποταμος?


Ποταμι?
*urda
stream, brook


urdėti, urduliuoti (old., to go in stream like manner)
Εορδα Αρδα
Godess of Agriculture
Αρδευσις το put water in stream to fields
Αρδα
Αρδευσις
*vaigas
fast, rapid


vaigzlus, veikslus (old. Vivid)?






*varpa
whirlpool


varpa (ear of wheat or rye)?






*visas
fertile, fruitful


visas (whole)






*zalmo-
fur, skin, shield


-






*zelmas
shoot (of a plant)


želmuo






*zud-as
careful, precise


-
There is an ancient rare in use word σοδ-
ευσοδος means well achived goals
It is considered far ancient Mycenean
the exact mean is to achive precise what you want


Only with word σοδεια and εσοδο (en+sod) but today means income
*zuras
hot, shining


žėrėti (to shine), žarijos (hot coals)
Virb ζεω I boil water,
Ζεστη heat
Ζω I am warm and alive
root is Zo


Ζεστη ?????
*zuv-
fish


žuvis



Well something that I might disagree is the word Germas
the only know is the city Germidava
which Ptolemy named Thermidava which in Greek means warm
so Germidava = warm castle? !!!!!
maybe hot castle!!!!
little extraordinary name for a castle,
but another view, Germin castle is more stable, a German city castle,
who knows, simply Germi as warm or hot or Germi as German who do you believe is more suitable?

Dagne
21-06-11, 14:33
Good job iapetoc!
There are so many connections between the languages...

PIE *gʷʰer(m)-/*gʷʰor(m) -warm


Alb. zjarr,zjarm Russ. жар (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%B6%D0%B0%D1%80) (žar), Lith. garas, Ltv. gars, Phryg. germe, Arm. ջերմ (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D5%BB%D5%A5%D6%80%D5%B4#Armenian) (ǰerm), Eng. bearnan/burn; wearm/warm, ON brenna; varmr, Gm. brinnan/brennen; warm/warm, Goth. brinnan;, warmjan, Gk. θερμός (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B8%CE%B5%CF%81%CE%BC%CF%8C%CF%82) (thermos), Skr. घृण (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%98%E0%A5%83%E0%A4%A3) (ghṛṇa); घर्म (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E0%A4%98%E0%A4%B0%E0%A5%8D%E0%A4%AE) (gharma-), Kashmiri germi, Thrac. germas, Pers. garmapada/garm, Ir. gorim/goraim, Hitt. war, Old Prussian goro, Av. garəma, Welsh gori, Kashmiri garū'm, Lat. furnus; forma


The words change their meaning or acquire additional meanings ie PIE *gʷʰer(m)-/*gʷʰor(m) -warm became garas (steam) in the present Lithuanian...

Also in the word germidava, germi sounds like plural of germas. But then it is a strage combination anyway, perhaps it had some other meaning in Dacian...

Taranis
21-06-11, 14:55
Well something that I might disagree is the word Germas
the only know is the city Germidava
which Ptolemy named Thermidava which in Greek means warm
so Germidava = warm castle? !!!!!
maybe hot castle!!!!
little extraordinary name for a castle,
but another view, Germin castle is more stable, a German city castle,
who knows, simply Germi as warm or hot or Germi as German who do you believe is more suitable?

Have you considered the possibility of hot springs? I'm not sure if there were any near that place, but it's pretty well-known from other places. Notably, the towns of Aachen and Bath come to my mind, or even the Thermopylae in Greece. The Celtic people even had deities dedicated to hot springs (Borvo/Bormanicus and Grannos). So, it would make sense for the Dacians to name a town like that, too.

EDIT:

Cool to see you getting into linguistic methodology in earnest, Dagne! :cool:

iapetoc
21-06-11, 19:50
Have you considered the possibility of hot springs? I'm not sure if there were any near that place, but it's pretty well-known from other places. Notably, the towns of Aachen and Bath come to my mind, or even the Thermopylae in Greece. The Celtic people even had deities dedicated to hot springs (Borvo/Bormanicus and Grannos). So, it would make sense for the Dacians to name a town like that, too.

EDIT:

Cool to see you getting into linguistic methodology in earnest, Dagne! :cool:


yes but it is a little different
Thermai and Thermaikos Gulf are after thermai (hotsprings of Souroti)
Thermopylae means the start, the entrance to an area of a worm field, (the Ypati hotsprings)
but a warm city or a warm castle little strange.

so now we are considering Dacian as proto-slavic? as a pre-slavic or as a Slavic,
I still wait for a good albanian to check it, cause words like kunga are mostly connect with them,
Any chance to compare it with Dagestan? it would be interesting,

I mean we now we abandon any connection of Dacian with Latin or Deutch??????

and something of last minute
there is a word βυτινα, but rare in greece and mostly means tank, not house,
a chamber with no windows, I don't know if it connected,

the amazing is that words like aura bal balas that dagne could not connected, are connected with south and in fact with a language not considered slavic, the greek,


on the other hand that can make a sence as the movings of that time,

for example the word Getae could mean a Balto-Gothic,
which with push of Avars Hungric moved west,
or an incoming slavic and the change hands of Moravia?
I mean Getae could be originated in moravia to baltic, and Slavs to samaraand Ashtrakhan Urals as know, and raiding tribes like alans Avars etc pushed them west, and they occupy moravia?

on the other hand could the Avars north of Dacia connected with Dagestan?

Taranis
21-06-11, 20:13
yes but it is a little different
Thermai and Thermaikos Gulf are after thermai (hotsprings of Souroti)
Thermopylae means the start, the entrance to an area of a worm field, (the Ypati hotsprings)
but a warm city or a warm castle little strange.

Well, it may be strange, but what if the meaning was shifted to "hot springs" in Dacian? Then it might make perfect sense. I mean, it's a common thing that just because words are cognates in different languages, doesn't automatically mean they have the same meaning: the meaning might be shifted. This is actually very common.


so now we are considering Dacian as proto-slavic? as a pre-slavic or as a Slavic,
I still wait for a good albanian to check it, cause words like kunga are mostly connect with them,

Hard to say, but it definitely wasn't "Proto-Slavic". I would think the most accurate description would be "Para-Balto-Slavic" (mirroring the position of the Lusitanian language as "Para-Celtic"). Also, Albanian is definitely also related somehow, but I'm not sure how. Albanian obviously is not as close to Baltic/Slavic as those are towards each other, but it also is a Satem language and as such shares a number of sound laws with Balto-Slavic.

One problem that I have noticed is that Classical Latin orthography may have been unsuitable for representing sounds like dz, dʒ, ʃ, ʒ, etc. which exist both in Baltic and Slavic (as well as Albanian) and may also have existed in Dacian but are not rendered as such.


Any chance to compare it with Dagestan? it would be interesting,

What? Dagestan is not a language, but a Russian federal subject. In Dagestan, a variety of Caucasian (read: non-IE) languages are spoken. Why would it be interesting to compare Dacian - an overtly Indo-European language from Southeastern Europe - with non-IE languages from the Caucasus? :startled:

iapetoc
21-06-11, 20:54
Well, it may be strange, but what if the meaning was shifted to "hot springs" in Dacian? Then it might make perfect sense. I mean, it's a common thing that just because words are cognates in different languages, doesn't automatically mean they have the same meaning: the meaning might be shifted. This is actually very common.



Hard to say, but it definitely wasn't "Proto-Slavic". I would think the most accurate description would be "Para-Balto-Slavic" (mirroring the position of the Lusitanian language as "Para-Celtic"). Also, Albanian is definitely also related somehow, but I'm not sure how. Albanian obviously is not as close to Baltic/Slavic as those are towards each other, but it also is a Satem language and as such shares a number of sound laws with Balto-Slavic.

One problem that I have noticed is that Classical Latin orthography may have been unsuitable for representing sounds like dz, dʒ, ʃ, ʒ, etc. which exist both in Baltic and Slavic (as well as Albanian) and may also have existed in Dacian but are not rendered as such.



What? Dagestan is not a language, but a Russian federal subject. In Dagestan, a variety of Caucasian (read: non-IE) languages are spoken. Why would it be interesting to compare Dacian - an overtly Indo-European language from Southeastern Europe - with non-IE languages from the Caucasus? :startled:


yes but Δακια Δακ -dag Dagestan
Albania in Balkan connected with Daci,
Albania in south Dagestan,
words like Kunga Balas do we found them in other IE languages? (exept Greece which is connected with minor asian non IE languages)
remember Dagestan are avars and avars are connected with central Europe also in fact with area North of Dacia,
it could be accidental coincidence, but a test or a search could help us,

another simmilar word we find in the religion of mithras,
the word is Konyak κονακι
according turcs means house but according mithras followers is the holy place where the people eat, and dance on the burning coals,
the connection of Konjak konyak (whatever) with kunga of Daci and Arvanitas,
well in my monologos here i am putting questions, seems like Daci and Thracians have imported customs from elsewhere

Taranis
21-06-11, 21:39
yes but Δακια Δακ -dag Dagestan
Albania in Balkan connected with Daci,
Albania in south Dagestan,
words like Kunga Balas do we found them in other IE languages? (exept Greece which is connected with minor asian non IE languages)
remember Dagestan are avars and avars are connected with central Europe also in fact with area North of Dacia,
it could be accidental coincidence, but a test or a search could help us,

I don't think that Caucasian Albanian and Balkan Albania are/were related in any way (the Caucasian Albanians spoke... well... a Caucasian language). I really think it's a coincidence... or, well, maybe not quite: "Albus" means "white", and that may refer to both the snowy peaks of the Balkan and of the Caucasus. For an analogy, take a look at "Guinea" and "New Guinea" ("land of blacks").

Dagne
22-06-11, 21:13
Regarding bal, balas, these words are also in Sanskrit by the way

In Lithuanian there are also words like bala (puddle, bog) or balas (a score / mischievous sprite) or aure (over there) only their meanings differ from Dacian so I did not list those. I did not include some other word like dita - diena (day), because they sound different and the meaning is anyway connected via PIE.

A strange word for the Lithuanian language would be čuk (peak). The most of Lithuanian words with čuk are onomatopoeic, for instance čiūka could mean a pig. So this word indeed could be from Latin (Romanian).

And regarding place names like Dagestan and Dacia, I don't see how to connect those. The word Daghestan or Daghistan means "country of mountains", it is derived from the Turkic word dağ meaning mountain and Persian suffix – stan meaning "land of", whereas Dacia is pronounced with “k” rather than “g”.

The old Lithuanian capital is Trakai, but I am not saying it is somehow connected with Thracians. Though phonetically a person form Trakai would be called trakas (Thracian) ...

So far we don't have a good Albanian comparison, but I doubt that we could get so many similar words like with Lithuanian, especially having in mind 100% matches with the same endings and exactly the same sounds. My conclusion is that Dacian could be not only Proto-Balto-Slavic but Eastern-Southern Baltic, as its sounds system and word structure very much resembles Lithuanian which is an Eastern-Northern Baltic language. To prove it one can compare Dacian with Latvian and Prussian,where also many matches could be found, but I think Lithuanian would still be closer.

Taranis
22-06-11, 21:29
Dagne, I'm not sure if you saw this before, but there is this dictionary of Old Prussian (http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian/Engl.pdf).

Regarding Albanian, there are a number of Albanian words also found in Romanian which are ostensibly thought to be of Dacian origin. One big problem with Albanian is that we have it only attested from relatively recently.

how yes no 2
22-06-11, 21:54
Regarding bal, balas, these words are also in Sanskrit by the way

In Lithuanian there are also words like bala (puddle, bog) or balas (a score / mischievous sprite) or aure (over there) only their meanings differ from Dacian so I did not list those. I did not include some other word like dita - diena (day), because they sound different and the meaning is anyway connected via PIE.

A strange word for the Lithuanian language would be čuk (peak). The most of Lithuanian words with čuk are onomatopoeic, for instance čiūka could mean a pig. So this word indeed could be from Latin (Romanian).

čuka = peak in Serbian
not so much used, it could be from vulgar latin...

bara = bog
bala = bundle (e.g. of dried grass) and also water that comes from someone's mouth...
balavac - would be about immature or very young person..
dan = day





And regarding place names like Dagestan and Dacia, I don't see how to connect those. The word Daghestan or Daghistan means "country of mountains", it is derived from the Turkic word dağ meaning mountain and Persian suffix – stan meaning "land of", whereas Dacia is pronounced with “k” rather than “g”.
agreed
but name Dacia could as well be about mountain area, as it is relief dominated by Carpathians...



The old Lithuanian capital is Trakai, but I am not saying it is somehow connected with Thracians. Though phonetically a person form Trakai would be called trakas (Thracian) ...
this is very strong clue about origin...

iapetoc
22-06-11, 22:46
the word bara exist in modern Greek, it is considered imported from thracian,

bara is the land that in winter is small lagoon and in summer very dry,
we find it in Makedonia Thrace and thessaly as Bara or Barikos nad southern as Burkos βουρκος
the luni is the clay lagoons and is connected with Greek ιλυς ilus is the wet clay,

other thracian words existed in Greek is κραβατος kravatos or krebatos means bed
τζουμα tzuma means an area full of small bushes inside a forest, the Mycenean is θυσσανος smallbush
χτισται builders chtiste it is a bythini word the greek is τεκτον or δομιτης tekton domiτιs

Dagne
22-06-11, 22:55
Dagne, I'm not sure if you saw this before, but there is this dictionary of Old Prussian (http://donelaitis.vdu.lt/prussian/Engl.pdf).

Thanks! I haven't seen this, was using Lithuanian-Prussian.

Regarding Albanian, there are a number of Albanian words also found in Romanian which are ostensibly thought to be of Dacian origin. One big problem with Albanian is that we have it only attested from relatively recently.

hmm, Lithuanian is also attested from rather recently - the first Lithuanian book comes in 1547 and the first "true literature" in the XVIII centuary only ...

Taranis
22-06-11, 22:59
hmm, Lithuanian is also attested from rather recently - the first Lithuanian book comes in 1547 and the first "true literature" in the XVIII centuary only ...

Yes, but it's not the same: that a critical difference with Lithuanian is that there's so many related languages (Latvian, Old Prussian, the Slavic family) around today which can be compared to and correlated to. With Albanian it's just Albanian alone, and no closely or less closely related other languages.

iapetoc
22-06-11, 23:05
Yes, but it's not the same: that a critical difference with Lithuanian is that there's so many related languages (Latvian, Old Prussian, the Slavic family) around today which can be compared to and correlated to. With Albanian it's just Albanian alone, and no closely or less closely related other languages.


that is correct Albanian do not belong to any family of languages, and have own laws of sounds and grammar

Lithuanian belongs to Baltic which belongs to baltoslavic etc a family of languages,

Greek and albanian are tottaly alone and Vasques

many works that had been done went to trash can and many efforts stay half and many claims are just claims,
the most correct of G mayer gives 700 words unknown origin and 400 Aryan

Dagne
22-06-11, 23:07
Yes, but it's not the same: that a critical difference with Lithuanian is that there's so many related languages (Latvian, Old Prussian, the Slavic family) around today which can be compared to and correlated to. With Albanian it's just Albanian alone, and no closely or less closely related other languages.

I see... Do you think historic Albanian would be more similar with Dacian and other sentum languages?

how yes no 2
22-06-11, 23:16
the word bara exist in modern Greek, it is considered imported from thracian,

bara is the land that in winter is small lagoon and in summer very dry,
we find it in Makedonia Thrace and thessaly as Bara or Barikos nad southern as Burkos βουρκος
the luni is the clay lagoons and is connected with Greek ιλυς ilus is the wet clay,

other thracian words existed in Greek is κραβατος kravatos or krebatos means bed
τζουμα tzuma means an area full of small bushes inside a forest, the Mycenean is θυσσανος smallbush
χτισται builders chtiste it is a bythini word the greek is τεκτον or δομιτης tekton domiτιs

bara - means exactly what you say... but was also used for a swamp e.g. "Obedska bara" is a big bog/swamp in Vojvodina

ilovača = clay ground
glina = clay, in particular also wet clay that can be shaped
krevet = bed
šuma = forest
ktitor = builder, but I think this word is import from greek...

iapetoc
22-06-11, 23:22
κτητορ means owner
κτημα means my property
κτησις is the god's buildings

κτισω means to build κτισται builders is considered imported from Bithynia in Byzantine times


and since we are gather here

the ending in Celtic is -os and in Baltic is -as?
the plural in Celtic is -ci Greek -koi in baltic? is it -cki like south slavic?

how yes no 2
22-06-11, 23:28
ktitor is stg. like donor for public building e.g. monastery, perhaps hospital as well...
link to monastery and religion is why I think word comes from Greek...

grammar is more complex than that in Slavic....
-ci sometimes ... also -i, -ovi, -e, -a,...
-cki never
-cki sounds as demunitive of some singular noun...
-ski would be about belonging (maybe that is why you say -cki)


do you know more thracian words?

Taranis
22-06-11, 23:32
I see... Do you think historic Albanian would be more similar with Dacian and other sentum languages?

You mean "Satem" languages, right?

Honestly, I've been looking into this for quite a while now and I have not come up with a satisfying scenario for Albanian yet. Again, the problem is that all of the Paleo-Balkan languages are poorly attested.

iapetoc
22-06-11, 23:53
You mean "Satem" languages, right?

Honestly, I've been looking into this for quite a while now and I have not come up with a satisfying scenario for Albanian yet. Again, the problem is that all of the Paleo-Balkan languages are poorly attested.

well to help you

Gatapano an arberesh finds egyptian elements (also exist in Greek)
A kolla (arvanites) finds similar roots in 600 words with homer (hmm work)
Thomopoulos who's work is hmmm finds pelasgian elements,
Mayer finds Turkish and Romanian elements big enough
a famous austrian try to conect all non greek toponyms, and claims an illyric origin, but his work just went to tin cause these exist in thracian and in turkey, (the Nedesca case) (only accepted by Albanians Nationalists)
2 young austrians try to work in albanian language but give up,
Rasuli connects albania with N Bulgaria and south Romania, but its work is not accepted by albanians
there are also some others like Duridanov who search thracian in Albanian language

iapetoc
23-06-11, 00:47
Dagne I need a favor

I want you to check that Dacian vocabulary,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanian_words_of_possible_Dacian_origin

is it connected with Baltic,

the connection with Greek is rather not strong except some few, Dacian is not a greek language,
the connection with Albanian and especially Latin is stronger,

iapetoc
23-06-11, 01:27
ktitor is stg. like donor for public building e.g. monastery, perhaps hospital as well...
link to monastery and religion is why I think word comes from Greek...

grammar is more complex than that in Slavic....
-ci sometimes ... also -i, -ovi, -e, -a,...
-cki never
-cki sounds as demunitive of some singular noun...
-ski would be about belonging (maybe that is why you say -cki)


do you know more thracian words?


I am not oppening books now,

κατα-κτητης conqueror
κτητορ = owner
Δοτηρ = the one he gives
εκτιω = estimate also punishmet assessed


κτιζω is imported from ancient times and exist in koine as also κραβατος Greek is κλινη (clinica)
Κραβατος is Phrygian (minor asia) and Ktirio is Buthynia imported)
κτιτορ is alternate with Greek εγειρω slavic gore or δομω Domus or τευκτιω-τεκτω τεκτον (archi-tecture), Hellenistic but not Greek,
there is also a possibility of change meaning
the stones that time were combed, Virb κτενιω-κτεριω Future κτερισω, probably the combed work became another meaning in non Greeks and return.
Donor is bad Greek word after Thracian or Latin influence or another,
the Greek word is χορηγος and Δοτηρ, Δονορ is not according Ancient Greek grammar,
is noun after past of Hellenistic
virb present is Διδω past εδιδα & εδωκα Ancient Greek δ->τ Δοτηρ
Hellenistic is Διδω past εδινα & εδωσα-> ν ? Δονορ from past form ????

Dagne
23-06-11, 08:26
Dagne I need a favor

I want you to check that Dacian vocabulary,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Romanian_words_of_possible_Dacian_origin

is it connected with Baltic,

the connection with Greek is rather not strong except some few, Dacian is not a greek language,
the connection with Albanian and especially Latin is stronger,

I looked at those words, but they sound strange to me - if they came to Romanian via Dacian, Romanians changed their pronunciation according to their sound law system and now it is difficult to know what is what

for instance, can I think that bara = bala (marsh) or that balta (bala) = (pool pudle)?
and if the word for calling a sheep is bir (Romanian) matches Lithuanian bur or bure?

there aren't definitely any 100% similarity like with Dacian reconstructed words, and many sound combinations are impossible for Lithuanian (or as a matter of facts for Dacian reconstructed words) like
-ou
-ea
-gh
-rg
-aie
-aia
-uie
-f

words ending in consonants
and so on...

and also, if these words are so similar with Albanian, why not to think that they came from Albanian to Romanian? The countries aren't that far away and I bet the contacts between two peoples throughout millennia were very much likely. Especially having in mind that Dacian and Thracian have been long gone ...

Dagne
23-06-11, 08:39
do you know more thracian words?

http://groznijat.tripod.com/thrac/thrac_5.html

iapetoc
23-06-11, 12:21
I looked at those words, but they sound strange to me - if they came to Romanian via Dacian, Romanians changed their pronunciation according to their sound law system and now it is difficult to know what is what

for instance, can I think that bara = bala (marsh) or that balta (bala) = (pool pudle)?
and if the word for calling a sheep is bir (Romanian) matches Lithuanian bur or bure?

there aren't definitely any 100% similarity like with Dacian reconstructed words, and many sound combinations are impossible for Lithuanian (or as a matter of facts for Dacian reconstructed words) like
-ou
-ea
-gh
-rg
-aie
-aia
-uie
-f

words ending in consonants
and so on...

and also, if these words are so similar with Albanian, why not to think that they came from Albanian to Romanian? The countries aren't that far away and I bet the contacts between two peoples throughout millennia were very much likely. Especially having in mind that Dacian and Thracian have been long gone ...


cause from history we know that Albocence tribe lived in Dacia-Moesia, and not in Albania
Dacians had colonies in Albania while Illyrians not in Dacia
the I Ydna of Albanians shows connection with Romania amd not with Dinaric,
the case of E-v13 that expand for south to North although is with your side and means population that moved North but after 200AD
and the more ancient Alba is in Dacia not in Skodra,

hmmm I am just thinking again of Getae and thracians, being 2 different groups and dialect??
in thracian vocabulary we find many armenian Greek as expected but in Dacian not that much,
Albanian is the 3rd isoglosses of the Germanic Slavic,

the case of celtic Galatian, or Noric P-Celtic sppeaking
well it is another story,
west of dinaric surely spoke celtic one time,
many thracian tribes are consider Celtothracian, Galatians spoke a language that is connected with south france, and with North Belgian areas,

I am just wondering of a Latino-celtic culture in Balkans,
for example Brygians,
Brygian god was Tios Bakchos
word Tios is connected with Greek Διος (god) Latin Dio and slavic Bog
considering that Brygian were isotones with Greek (grecothracian) but greeks consider them thracians, and not Getae we may have another approach that some celtic influenced areas are thracians and some getae are the daci????
on the other hand Galatians lived west of Carpatheian,

i see you found Duridanov

Dagne
23-06-11, 13:13
cause from history we know that Albocence tribe lived in Dacia-Moesia, and not in Albania
Dacians had colonies in Albania while Illyrians not in Dacia
the I Ydna of Albanians shows connection with Romania amd not with Dinaric,
the case of E-v13 that expand for south to North although is with your side and means population that moved North but after 200AD
and the more ancient Alba is in Dacia not in Skodra,


I didn't quite get what you were saying above ...

From wiki
Regarding the origin of non Latin words in Romanian (many with Albanian cognates) the wiki is saying that "these are not necessarily Dacian, but rather were brought into the territory that is modern Romania by Romance-speaking shepherds migrating north from Albania, Serbia, and northern Greece who became the Romanian people."

The same could be said about Slavic influence in the Romanian language:

"The Slavic influences on Romanian are especially noticeable and can be observed at all linguistic levels: lexis, phonetics, morphology and syntax. About 14% of Romanian words are of Slavic origin. This is due to the migration of Slavic tribes who traversed the territory of present-day Romania during the early evolution of the language."

I think it is quite a good explanation, why to make a more complicated one?

iapetoc
23-06-11, 13:19
well I ll have to go,

I will answer you later plz,

I just say the gennetical connections of Albanians shows migration from transylvania and the opposite,

about the au eu it is an explanation with greek.

the debate among Rusu and some other is stronger
as you see in Brygians we have a Greco latin Dio and a slavic Bog in the same deity,


Ok I am back

Now the case of Romanian ending to au ou etc
thry to compare it with Greek mycenean -eus Achileus αχιλευς -ευς
now try to pronounce it Be careful ευ ισ νοτ ε+ου ε+φ ορ ε+β meaning eu= ef or eu = ev

so the written is Αχιλευς but the spoken is achilefs
any comparison with Slavic names ? like anton ->antonof or antonov
antonov sounds familiar to you and antonof to me
Now watch greek grammar and names
Georgi-os nomitive
Georgi-ou possesion-genitive that ou becomes -ov in slavic or -of
Οδυσσευς (Odysseus) pronounced Odyssefs if you cut the -s is Odyssef
Now if I give you the Odyssef surely you will tell me that is Russian
but if I give you Odysseu you will tell me romanian

compare
Odyssef
Odysseu
Odysseus = Odyssefs

the -Dava case is the Grecothracian -Dona (might be celtic)

now watch
Greek εθνος from ενδος (Ενδυμιων etc)
Thracian Paeoni -edi -thuni (so it follows the rules)
Ενδος Endos->edi
Eθνος Thoni-thuni
the land were a tribe or nation is habited is Endymia Edonia (modern Greek Ντοπιο, Dopio (p v f) Dovio)

compare it with Makedonia

Mak-ednos Mak-εθνος (athenean pronounce)
Mak-edonia

so Χαλκηδων Χαλκηδωνος poss-gen means chalki-dona χαλκηδονα
in baltic would be chalki-dava

so the words that are strange to you follow the Thracian rules of south,

another example,

Thracian king name Kotis, for first view it is Greek, and it could be, means hard, tough,
Now lets change the -s to -c, we got Kotic, wow the thracians were Serbs it ends in -its -c

compare these Keltik and celtic it is the same word.


simply with Roman occupation we lost the eus and beacame eu -au

the key is the Myssian Thracians and Moravian old Slavonic

Myssians North of Troy are connected at least with root name with Myceneans
Myssians Thracians moved North to Moessia,
So they carry the Pelasgo-thracian of Troy which follows the thyrrenian-Latin language,
in Fact the myssianize a wide area, and that is why Romans found easy the 'Daci' language,

Moessia means Myssia

that is why half Romanian is unknow to you, and Daco-Romanian seems more ancient than Roman,

Now since Myssians are Thracians and that language is most close to Greek and Latin
means that we also have a non Baltic Thracian or Dacian, A minor asian Aryan and non IE mixed language who entered Balkans,

In fact same is the Brygians the Paeoni the Sintikes etc

these Thracian follow the Hettit ending (Hattussa) like Dacian Capital SarmizeGETusa, ending the -essa -sse -isa
watch the Odrysee Thracians, Odrysee not Odrava
now watch the names
Diurpaneus (-eus) (follows Achileus)

There is also a connection with Armenian and Persian language among them,


the story of the wolfs,
Alternate name for wolf is Dakos
Virb is δακιω (Ι bite, tooth as weapon)
noun δηγμα (bite of an insect) δαγκωμα (teeth marks bite)
Vrygian Dakos means wolf,

now the others who have wolfs are the Lycaones
the Latins
the Turks
and the south Greeks (many ancient had that name, λυκειον school of young wolves)

so the case of Baltic in the reconstructed as I said proves connection with Baltic,
But the case of the other Daci-Moesian known proves connection with minor Asia and Latin,

In fact the wiki is not connecting Myssian and Moschoi people with Moesian,
but in Homer we read about a thracian that in his last time he was searching North to his country mountains, beyond Moesia,




so the distinguish Getae could be correct
Getae could mean Goth and could be connected with Baltic or Slavic,
while Thracians could be connected with Balkanic, minor asian, and Black sea areas,
Tauriski (crimea) were considered Thracians

watch the 2 rivers Dneiper and Dneister one follows the -pera and the other the -stera (south thracians -see)

I strongly believe that Romanization and the later Slavonization from Moravian has change enough language and create a global slavic

the other case is the one I say Slavonization of South Slavic, or North Slavic

the import of Moravian Language to All today Slavic cultures.

a move to west of Goths, a move of west of Slavic, creates Moravia which language as Slavonic passes either to south Balkan, either to Baltic,

to Be correct and not misunderstood,
a para Slavic language or para balto existed in Balkans, or north or far east
but with Cyrill it is created a status, a lingua franca, that is changing the almost fade old Balkan languages, and sounds

so the -eu you do not understand is Thracian

Romaneus pronounced Romanefs or Romanevs

so the Greek, Anatolian Mold-aia becomes mold-aua and then Mold-ava

compare bucuresti with Albanian word Bukur both means beatiful.

the -esti is another thracian ending of toponyms, we find it in Greece also as paranesti in Greek thrace,

so Bucur-esti = bukur-esti

How yes no tries to connect Serbians with the Lycaonians, due an existance of a myth,





The old Lithuanian capital is Trakai, but I am not saying it is somehow connected with Thracians. Though phonetically a person form Trakai would be called trakas (Thracian) ...

the capital of the Dorians is also Trikke


now lets return, to linguistic
the word is Flute, the musical instrument
well I don't know if flute means something
lets see the Greek word
αυλος well its negative a- and the word υλη υλη = material,
so αυλος means empty, nothing inside,
lets see how it is pronounced
avlos αβλος so again we have a connection of u with v,

lets see the back coin of view
Albanian with Germanic and Slavic belong to isoglosses
Lets the other side, The geate side, the gothic side,
as you said that -au that exist in romanian is not suitable or familiar with Balto-slavic,
lets see the other side, the German,

to you know any toponyms in North ending in -au,

I know 1
the river,
Greek δουναβης,
serbian (I guess how yes no will help us)
Slavic - Dunava ? Donava? ok -va
German Donau so dacian -au could be Gothic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lets see in Poland
capital is Βαρσοβια Warsaw why w and not v or u
lets see Warsau and Warsav

that -au that is strange to baltic is common in Gothic-germanic language,

that is why Greeks call the Daci Goths, Getae - Γεται (gete)
In fact I believe that Thracians in south are more slavic than the ancient dacian,
although your linguistic approach leads to Baltic, the other approach leads to another view, the one that ancients describe,

that dacian language as we see connects Slavic with germanic and albanian
if I follow the historical descriptions I believe that that a pre slavic or a para slavic came to balkans,
and passed the the goths,
Goths pushed west by the incoming slavic 2nd wave
which was pushed by the Non IE from east, like golden horde, avars Balkars etc,

that second wave passed west and east of Romania, living areas who were under byzantine Latin speaking christians, while the rest especially moravia became the Lingua franca of the new incomers,
so slavic people settle upon pre-slavic or para slavic thracians, and pushed Goths west
it might be connected also with the weak roman empire.


that -au is the link among Dacian and Gothic-Germanic

while some Albanian sounds like dh hrr is simmilar germanic

well i hope at least to make you wonder,
since so many modern linguists and the problem remains unsolved,

what do you say?

Taranis
23-06-11, 21:44
The Getae and the Goths (Gutones) were not the same.

The Getae were related with the Dacian, whereas the Goths, without a doubt, were East Germanic people, akin to the Burgundians and Vandals.

how yes no 2
23-06-11, 21:59
compare bucuresti with Albanian word Bukur both means beatiful.

the -esti is another thracian ending of toponyms, we find it in Greece also as paranesti in Greek thrace,

so Bucur-esti = bukur-esti
I think Baltic people = Dacians, proto-Slavic = north Thracians, Pannonians, Veneti, Scythians, and Scordisci/Serians/Serdi who are east Celtic people and spread along Danube...



so, a wild guess, why would -Esti not be related to Estonians?

"Bucu' in Estonian = "labour"
so, this would be workers town populated with Estonians...



How yes no tries to connect Serbians with the Lycaonians, due an existance of a myth,
Lika = area in today Croatia from which many Serbs and Croats origin..
Lech = ancestors of Poles...
Lycian rulers named Sarpedon (Sarpe + don?)
wolf related to Lycians, wolf as unofficial animal totem of Serbs (official one is eagle)
Lyccian = Lukka sea peoples who are related to Sherdana sea peoples and place in Egypt named after Sherdana is Serbonian bog....




to you know any toponyms in North ending in -au,

I know 1
the river,
Greek δουναβης,
serbian (I guess how yes no will help us)
Slavic - Dunava ? Donava? ok -va
German Donau so dacian -au could be Gothic!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
lets see in Poland
capital is Βαρσοβια Warsaw why w and not v or u
lets see Warsau and Warsav

that -au that is strange to baltic is common in Gothic-germanic language,

Dunav

Taranis
23-06-11, 22:14
Actually, with the Danube, you are both completely wrong. "Danube" is derived from Celtic "Danuvios". The ancient Greeks refered to the river however as "Istros" (Ister), which is thought to be derived from Dacian/Thracian. Herodotus explicitly talks about the "Istros", though he must have been aware of the Celtic term since he talks about the "Keltoi" who lived near the source of the Danube.

Dagne
23-06-11, 23:14
Now the case of Romanian ending to au ou etc
thry to compare it with Greek mycenean -eus Achileus αχιλευς -ευς
now try to pronounce it Be careful ευ ισ νοτ ε+ου ε+φ ορ ε+β meaning eu= ef or eu = ev

so the written is Αχιλευς but the spoken is achilefs
any comparison with Slavic names ? like anton ->antonof or antonov
antonov sounds familiar to you

I see what you mean

... in Baltic sound system it will be Antanas, Odisėjas, Jurgis Jurgio

and regarding Kotis - it sounds OK in Baltic, too. An older meaning of kotas in Lth. is a cruel man, executor ...

-au is very common in Baltic, too, but not for endings in toponyms.

Dagne
23-06-11, 23:31
so, a wild guess, why would -Esti not be related to Estonians?

"Bucu' in Estonian = "labour"
so, this would be workers town populated with Estonians...

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:

Dagne
23-06-11, 23:45
and since we are gather here

the ending in Celtic is -os and in Baltic is -as?
the plural in Celtic is -ci Greek -koi in baltic? is it -cki like south slavic?

masculine endings for nouns
-as, -ys, -is, -uo, -a, -ius -us
feminine
-a, -ė, -e, -is, -i,
plural
-iai, -ai, -ės, -ys, -os

and these ending are only in nominative

Taranis
24-06-11, 02:50
here is something amusing:

I was glossing through some more Albanian and Romanian words, and I found a number of "false signals" that are actually words common to both languages, but clearly not of Dacian origin. :laughing:

For example for "boot":
Albanian "Çizme" - Romanian "Cizma" ("Çizme" in Turkish)

Given additional Slavic borrowings (in addition to Turkish), we must eliminate a lot of words there, I assume.

iapetoc
24-06-11, 02:53
Actually, with the Danube, you are both completely wrong. "Danube" is derived from Celtic "Danuvios". The ancient Greeks refered to the river however as "Istros" (Ister), which is thought to be derived from Dacian/Thracian. Herodotus explicitly talks about the "Istros", though he must have been aware of the Celtic term since he talks about the "Keltoi" who lived near the source of the Danube.


nope taranis my intencion is not the origin of the name the pronounce of -au or -av,
so plz try to unserstand what i am talking about

the serbian Danuv and the german donau,
the ending of greek au or eu, the ending of romanian-daci au and the ending of -ev of slavic and the ending of au in german,


well there 2 kinds of turkish words,
the ancient anatolian and the modern ottoman's

lets see turkish word guzel means pretty girl, desirable girl,
ancient greek γοης goes female goessa (ss -.z?) charming
italian gusto

I believe the root is the same

another is the turkish kel (bold, no hair)
compare with romanian (chel)
serbian 'celav
Italian Calvo,

in fact there are many Anatolian words that remained or change in Turkish,
the Etruscan-latin have anatolian origin, so many words of latins are from anatolian,
and that up and down of thracians to minor asia could be the transfer of thyrrenian to areas that Pelasgians never went

ok in the case of gizme.


but what about in cases of -au and -av

in fact that is almost bigger,

consider the latin letters names that end in -slav like borislav
in greek letters is βορισλαυ-ος borislau

in fact I believe that -au and -av is a difference of balto-slavic with not balto-slavic

in fact taranis you may laugh, but Dacia with c=ts what other non slavic nations reminds you?
well it could be just a coincidence, or an inner old name ?

iapetoc
24-06-11, 04:00
so, a wild guess, why would -Esti not be related to Estonians?

"Bucu' in Estonian = "labour"
so, this would be workers town populated with Estonians...

:laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing::laughing:


how about latvia Λατβια? means stone life,
also lithuania means bored stones, stones with alzheimer
also polonia means young donkeys (πωλος ονου, a joke from school times when jesus asked for a donkey to enter Jerusalem)
Ucraine ουκ-ρανια means not even a drop
Germania ger-mania it has mania to bend
etc

that -esti we found in many areas of thracians and greeks could be the word Nest ->nestia Greek Estia. the Homeric Nostoς

LeBrok
24-06-11, 07:17
Also in Polish, Cizemki

LeBrok
24-06-11, 07:23
nope taranis my intencion is not the origin of the name the pronounce of -au or -av,
so plz try to unserstand what i am talking about


Many slavic words in polish end with au. It is spelled ał, in english it sounds like aw, very close to au. In spoken language indistinguishable.

Dagne
24-06-11, 07:38
But Dacian words (like the Baltic ones) - toponymes, hydronimes, names would never end in -au. Nor in -av like in slavic languages

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 03:42
that -esti we found in many areas of thracians and greeks could be the word Nest ->nestia Greek Estia. the Homeric Nostoς
it was a joke, but it is theoretically possible (which is quite different from likely) that -esti suffix was used for settlements of proto-Estonians...

and no it could not be word -nestia because if it was than it would still be -nestia
first letters of words that have meanings are not easily lost in coin words they show up in......
obviously that has some reasonable likelihood to happen only in case of loan coin words - that is when the composed words are not understood, which is not the case for -nestia...

on other hand ending -esti is very likely the same as serbian -ište as in place names such as Trgovište (trg = market), Seliište (selti = move), Plandište (plandovati = stg. like taking rest, having vacation, laze), Gradiište(graditi = to build), Žitište (žito = wheat)


Also in Polish, Cizemki
but to Polish it could not have entered from Turkish....


Many slavic words in polish end with au. It is spelled ał, in english it sounds like aw, very close to au. In spoken language indistinguishable.

that is what I tried to explain with Don-au vs. dun-av
it is absolutely the same suffix....
just different languages have different way of writing...
-v in Serbia would be -w or -u in German style writing...


But Dacian words (like the Baltic ones) - toponymes, hydronimes, names would never end in -au. Nor in -av like in slavic languages

no, they end in -dava
which is also built-in in Slavic word tvrdjava (fortress) = tvrd + dava (strong, solid + dava)
"dava" clearly meant something like fortified settlement (=town)....

however, in Lithuanian fortress = tvirtovė
which means Dacian -dava would in the Lithuanian version of this coin word map to -ove (tvrd -> tvirt)

thus, there is Slavic loan from Dacian, and Baltic loan from Slavic.... which contradicts idea that Dacians were Baltic... in fact it does place Slavic closer to Dacians than Baltic which further implies Slavic living north of Dacians and Baltic north of Slavic which is in accordance with known history.... this however doesnot prove that proto-slavs didnot also live e.g. south of Dacians...


I see no counterpart of word "dava" in any of existing languages...in fact closest match would be "town"... so it could have been about Germanic tribe....
there could be relation between tribal names
Dacians and Deutch/Dutch
Getea and Goths
shared tribal identity doesnot necesserily imply that in historic times those people spoke same language....but it may pop up in genetics studies...

LeBrok
25-06-11, 04:28
but to Polish it could not have entered from Turkish....



.

Any reason why not?

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1600/1600.jpg

zanipolo
25-06-11, 05:13
on other hand ending -esti is very likely the same as serbian -ište as in place names such as Trgovište (trg = market), Seliište (selti = move), Plandište (plandovati = stg. like taking rest, having vacation, laze), Gradiište(graditi = to build), Žitište (žito = wheat)



.

On the other hand, ending - este are illyrian words such as Tergeste = Market, Ateste = nests, seste = mannerism

iapetoc
25-06-11, 08:24
On the other hand, ending - este are illyrian words such as Tergeste = Market, Ateste = nests, seste = mannerism

correct the ones you call illyrians ancient Greek call Keltos Celtus


But Dacian words (like the Baltic ones) - toponymes, hydronimes, names would never end in -au. Nor in -av like in slavic languages

then?

either -au ether -av is more a dialect or semi-language difference start,
in fact the connection of romanian with the rest slavic around has the smallest %,
that means that either thracians either Dacian which from ancient we call nation but different speaking could be the spark of of a split, or had already split.


Also in Polish, Cizemki


Many slavic words in polish end with au. It is spelled ał, in english it sounds like aw, very close to au. In spoken language indistinguishable.

indeed I mention Warsaw, and an alternate Varsava

Dagne
25-06-11, 08:26
no, they end in -dava
which is also built-in in Slavic word tvrdjava (fortress) = tvrd + dava (strong, solid + dava)
"dava" clearly meant something like fortified settlement (=town)....

however, in Lithuanian fortress = tvirtovė
which means Dacian -dava would in the Lithuanian version of this coin word map to -ove (tvrd -> tvirt)

thus, there is Slavic loan from Dacian, and Baltic loan from Slavic.... which contradicts idea that Dacians were Baltic... in fact it does place Slavic closer to Dacians than Baltic which further implies Slavic living north of Dacians and Baltic north of Slavic which is in accordance with known history.... this however doesnot prove that proto-slavs didnot also live e.g. south of Dacians...


I see no counterpart of word "dava" in any of existing languages...in fact closest match would be "town"... so it could have been about Germanic tribe....
there could be relation between tribal names
Dacians and Deutch/Dutch
Getea and Goths
shared tribal identity doesnot necesserily imply that in historic times those people spoke same language....but it may pop up in genetics studies...

Well, didn’t I mention before that the ending -dava is also used in Lithuanian place names? Close to Kaunas where I lived in my childhood there was a village named Vaišvydava and also Vaišvydavos giria (forest) which, as you may notice is exactly the same as it might have sounded in Dacian.

Perhaps the ending -dava is not the most popular one in Lithuanian, there are many other types of endings, among them - duva, -lava ... And I don't think these place names are taken from Slavic languages. So here we go again, Lithuanian language has exactly the same suffixes as Dacian and generally behaves as the Lithuanian language.

And regarding the meaning of dava (fortress) - hmm, perhaps it is just a popular suffix in Dacian. Does it have to have a meaning?

Dagne
25-06-11, 12:23
I’ll explain more why there might not be any meaning in the –dava. It could just be a suffix –dav- + an ending –a.

The logic for making compound nouns is different:

For Germanic languages it is quite common to have a conjunction of two words Perter+son=Peterson, where both words have meanings.

While in inflective languages true compound are rare, and nouns have only one meaningful word and the rest is just a suffix and an ending:

Petraitis Petr(stem)+ait (suffix) +is (ending). There is no meaning in the suffix –ait-, or the ending-is.

(The linguist however, worked out that the suffix –ait- somehow derives from son of. So in essence Petraitis is the same as Peterson.)

The same might be true about toponymes –
They can be combined of two stems Konings+berg or just Karaliaučius, where the meaning is only in Karal- (stem from karalius, king) + (suffix) –iauč- + (ending) -ius.

The place names in Lithuanian are usually made of one stem word and a suffix with an ending. –dava also is suffix + ending, with not apparent meaning like “fortress” in it.

Also regarding the meaning fortress – we have a word pilis, and placenames Pilėnai, Piliuona, Pilaitė, etc. but there is another connections polis – pilis ...

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 14:20
Well, didn’t I mention before that the ending -dava is also used in Lithuanian place names? Close to Kaunas where I lived in my childhood there was a village named Vaišvydava and also Vaišvydavos giria (forest) which, as you may notice is exactly the same as it might have sounded in Dacian.
-dava is Dacian suffix
iapetoc speaks of -au in order to make Dacian Germanic, but it is not -au but -dava


And I don't think these place names are taken from Slavic languages.
no one said that.... this was about Slavic coinword "tvrđava"(fortress) = tvrd + dava (strong, solid + dava)
that is in Lithuanian "tvirtovė" without clear -dava ending of Dacians
which clearly shows that that particular word has travelled from Dacian to Slavic to Baltic...



Perhaps the ending -dava is not the most popular one in Lithuanian, there are many other types of endings, among them - duva, -lava ...
-duva is same ending as -dava



And I don't think these place names are taken from Slavic languages. So here we go again, Lithuanian language has exactly the same suffixes as Dacian and generally behaves as the Lithuanian language.
sure, it does...
suffixes also originally had meaning....
e.g. in previous post I did list few placenames in Serbia that have ending on-ište (similar to Thracian -esti and Illyrian -este)

while there is no direct meaning of the suffix -ište it is always designating a location... besides place names it is also used in many coin word nouns (e.g. zemljište = plot, terrain (zemlja = ground), čistilište = cleaning place( čistiti = to clean), gradilište (graditi = to build)....

in fact the suffix may come from same PIE word that gave birth to Stadt in German....

so, suffixes have indirect meaning...



And regarding the meaning of dava (fortress) - hmm, perhaps it is just a popular suffix in Dacian. Does it have to have a meaning?
yes...
it has to have had a meaning originally...



For Germanic languages it is quite common to have a conjunction of two words Perter+son=Peterson, where both words have meanings.

While in inflective languages true compound are rare, and nouns have only one meaningful word and the rest is just a suffix and an ending:

Petraitis Petr(stem)+ait (suffix) +is (ending). There is no meaning in the suffix –ait-, or the ending-is.

(The linguist however, worked out that the suffix –ait- somehow derives from son of. So in essence Petraitis is the same as Peterson.)

not just Germanic languages, most of languages do have coin words....

-ait is same origin as -ić in Serbia...
that is suffix used in demunitives...
and meaning "son of" is clear because what is a son than little father?


it is wide spread demunitive actually... e.g. in netherlands it is -(e)tje but in Friiesland in Netherlands this demunitive suffix exist also as -lyts

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 14:23
On the other hand, ending - este are illyrian words such as Tergeste = Market, Ateste = nests, seste = mannerism
that implies that Illyrian is somewhat incorporated in (south?) Slavic, because this is very often used suffix in nouns and is used to designate location....
if it was passed via placenames from Illyrians than it wouldnot exist as widely used suffix that designates location.... (read my previous post on this topic)

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 14:45
Any reason why not?

http://www.euratlas.net/history/europe/1600/1600.jpg

only historic contact with Turkey is on that map you show of Poland-Lithuania... which was Balto-Slavic state in which Slavic Poles, Ukrainians and Belarus went under name of Poland... Poles just mean field people.. so any Slavic people can accept that as tribal identity... while real tribal name of Poles is Lech/Lechia (Lyakhs in Russian primary chronicle).... in fact origin may be the same as of Lycians in Asia minor who were also known as Lukka sea peoples... but that originally could have meant mountain people...

words are imported either by conquest or trough trade...
there was no substantial trade between Otoman empire and Poland...
and Poland was never under Ottoman empire...

and if word spread in times of Poland-Lithuania coin state, it would probably exist in Lithuanian as well...

it is very possible that the word comes from Ottomans.... but it also might have been around in Balkan, east Europe and Anatolia before them as well... something to think about is when boots were invented and when Polish people have started using them.... could it be as late as Poland-Lithuania state (1569–1795)?

iapetoc
25-06-11, 14:49
-ait is same origin as -ić in Serbia...
that is suffix used in demunitives...
and meaning "son of" is clear because what is a son than little father?


it is wide spread demunitive actually... e.g. in netherlands it is -(e)tje but in Friiesland in Netherlands this demunitive suffix exist also as -lyts






I’ll explain more why there might not be any meaning in the –dava. It could just be a suffix –dav- + an ending –a.

The logic for making compound nouns is different:

For Germanic languages it is quite common to have a conjunction of two words Perter+son=Peterson, where both words have meanings.

While in inflective languages true compound are rare, and nouns have only one meaningful word and the rest is just a suffix and an ending:

Petraitis Petr(stem)+ait (suffix) +is (ending). There is no meaning in the suffix –ait-, or the ending-is.

(The linguist however, worked out that the suffix –ait- somehow derives from son of. So in essence Petraitis is the same as Peterson.)

The same might be true about toponymes –
They can be combined of two stems Konings+berg or just Karaliaučius, where the meaning is only in Karal- (stem from karalius, king) + (suffix) –iauč- + (ending) -ius.

The place names in Lithuanian are usually made of one stem word and a suffix with an ending. –dava also is suffix + ending, with not apparent meaning like “fortress” in it.

Also regarding the meaning fortress – we have a word pilis, and placenames Pilėnai, Piliuona, Pilaitė, etc. but there is another connections polis – pilis ...


That is another IE turn

Ancient Greeks use nomitive and again Genitive-possesional
example
father name Petros
Antonios Petrou, Antonios Πετρου
means Anton who belongs to Petros (son of Petros)
if the other want to reffer to you to a third then they Petrides
So if I am introducing my self I say Antonios Petrou
But if someone speaks about me and knows my father will say Petrides (modern -της -tis)
Later that change Greeks used the degrees to express superlative and diminutive

so son of Peter becomes πετρα-κης (small peter = peter son)
compare with pelasgian or Hattians language (Hatth-con -Attika)
so that -son of far North is the minor asian -con,
I think that -akis exist in Italy (someone could help us) as -acio
so the petros Son becomes Petrarkis
Now in a non Greek world goes to Petrace
compare the Greek Petraki whith Romanian Petrace
the older -ides or -ites with akis -ace

lets compare it
name anton father Petros

Anton Petrou I introduce (rom Petrau slavic Petrof-Petrov)
Anton Petrides-dis another introduce me also Petri-otis
Lithuanian Petri-ait-is (otis- aitis)

the other case the diminutive
Anton Petrakis (πετρακης) -akis
romanian Petrace -ace

half of Cretans use the -aces -ακης and maniates the doric -akos
-akos is a satem form will be -acos hmmm acos ->son

Serbian will be Petric Antonic etc so the case of -ace -ic - ακης can show a connection

I don't know if that follows ancient thracian form or a more IE or an ancient Celtic or a greek or a balto slavic

but the connection is obvious

Simply most of reconstructed follow the Baltoslavic rules, and forget the Romanian
while the more we search the Brygian language the more we found non slavic sounds

I believe that a paraslavic sound existed in south Balkans, as also a Celtic but Baltic was above Dacia,
that means that either Dacian was -> baltic or celt or Germanic
either thracian was -> para slavic or Celtic or more near the Greco-Iranian Aryan

in fact I believe that Thracian non Baltic went North, meet the Baltic and return as Balto slavic by Cyrill
while Dacian was a Celto-Germanic sound or a balto germanic sound

Taranis
25-06-11, 14:55
Intriguing, I think the word is a textbook example of what linguists call a "Wanderwort (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanderwort)" (wandering word).

Albanian - Çizme
Azeri - Çəkmə
Croatian, Serbian - Čizma
Hungarian - Csizma
Polish - Cizemki
Romanian - Cizmă
Turkish - Çizme

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 15:02
correct the ones you call illyrians ancient Greek call Keltos Celtus
hm, this is quite interesting....
can you find reference for this?

Dagne
25-06-11, 16:30
-no one said that.... this was about Slavic coinword "tvrđava"(fortress) = tvrd + dava (strong, solid + dava)
that is in Lithuanian "tvirtovė" without clear -dava ending of Dacians
which clearly shows that that particular word has travelled from Dacian to Slavic to Baltic...


No, I don't think languages develop this way ...
The suffix -dav- is in the Lithuanian language as in Dacian and Slavic, but it comes from Proto Language level (ie, Proto Balto-Slavic). And regarding tvirtovė - it just comes with the suffix -ov-ė. In Macedonian "fortress" is tvirdina, so it comes with the suffix -in-a this time. Whereas -dava is typical for placenames, right? (tvirtovė is not a place name)

-dav- standing alone has no apparent meaning like a variety of other suffixes.

Regarding etymology of -dav- Well, I can agree with you that it originates from some meaningful word. But we don't know this original word that -dav-a got transformed from. And these three letters have no apparent meaning in either Slavic, Dacian or Baltic.

Isn't it right ? You can't give me a meaning of -dav- in Serbian, can you? The meaning is only in tvrd, isn't it? (the same in tvirt/d stem in Balto-Slavic languages)

Also, I noticed that place names in Macedonian or Serbian can be with the suffix -glav-a. (Drimiglava, Baćoglava, etc) Could -glava be related to -dava?

The somewhat misleading circumstance is that -dav-a is listed as a meaningful word in the reconstructed vacabulary of Dacian words in wiki, whereas it is, in fact, only a suffix+ending.

iapetoc
25-06-11, 16:33
hm, this is quite interesting....
can you find reference for this?

you know many

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 17:03
No, I don't think the language develops this way ...
The suffix -dav- is in the Lithuanian language as in Dacian and Slavic, but it comes from Proto Language level (ie, Proto Balto-Slavic).
there is no -dav(plus -a for female nouns, plus -o for neutral geneder nouns) suffix in south Slavic designating location, settlement
-dav suffix would be used to denote way in which something is...
e.g. krivudav put = road with many turns (krivo = not straight)

so, in coin "tvrđava" it is clear loan from Dacian
if Lithuanian is Dacian derived, why 'tvirtovė' in Lithuanian and not e.g. "tvirtdava"?


And regarding tvirtovė - it just comes with the suffix -ov-ė. In Macedonian "fortress" is tvirdina, so it comes with the suffix -in-a this time. Whereas -dava is typical for placenames, right? (tvirtovė is not a place name)
-din (+a for feminin, or +o for neutral gender nouns) is Celtic ending
in fact "tvrdina" is also usable in serbian, but is arhaic...

-dav- standing alone has no apparent meaning like a variety of other suffixes.


Regarding etymology of -dav- Well, I can agree with you that it originates from some meaningful word. But we don't know this original word that -dav-a got transformed from. And these three letters have no apparent meaning in either Slavic, Dacian or Baltic.
they do have apparent meaning in english - "town" is derived from same "dav" (w in english would in east Europe be written as v)



Isn't it right ? You can't give me a meaning of -dav- in Serbian, can you? The meaning is only in tvrd, isn't it? (the same in tvirt/d stem in Balto-Slavic languages)
that is why I say it is loan word from Dacian...

Also, I noticed that place names in Macedonian or Serbian can be with the suffix -glav-a. (Drimiglava, Baćoglava, etc) Could -glava be related to -dava?


The somewhat misleading circumstance is that -dav-a is listed as a meaningful word in the reconstructed vacabulary of Dacian words in wiki, whereas it is, in fact, only a suffix+ending.
I do not think that is misleading... I am pretty sure it meant town / fortified settlement

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 17:04
you know many

I know that relation exists from mythology...
but I am not really familiar with writings of ancient Greek historians...
when I quote something it is because on internet it is easy to search through books...

iapetoc
25-06-11, 17:11
No, I don't think the language develops this way ...
The suffix -dav- is in the Lithuanian language as in Dacian and Slavic, but it comes from Proto Language level (ie, Proto Balto-Slavic). And regarding tvirtovė - it just comes with the suffix -ov-ė. In Macedonian "fortress" is tvirdina, so it comes with the suffix -in-a this time. Whereas -dava is typical for placenames, right? (tvirtovė is not a place name)

-dav- standing alone has no apparent meaning like a variety of other suffixes.

Regarding etymology of -dav- Well, I can agree with you that it originates from some meaningful word. But we don't know this original word that -dav-a got transformed from. And these three letters have no apparent meaning in either Slavic, Dacian or Baltic.

Isn't it right ? You can't give me a meaning of -dav- in Serbian, can you? The meaning is only in tvrd, isn't it? (the same in tvirt/d stem in Balto-Slavic languages)

Also, I noticed that place names in Macedonian or Serbian can be with the suffix -glav-a. (Drimiglava, Baćoglava, etc) Could -glava be related to -dava?

The somewhat misleading circumstance is that -dav-a is listed as a meaningful word in the reconstructed vacabulary of Dacian words in wiki, whereas it is, in fact, only a suffix+ending.


what Macedonian???????????????
so you come to the Greek -Dona -ona wich means area of same things, same nation people,
Chalki-dona (chalki nation area)
or greek chiken house male Ornith-ona
or area of grapes - ampell-ona

So you still ignore the South thracian or Greek
and claim my language as slavic

IN MAKEDONIAN THE Word IS -DONA
COMPARE THE MYG-DONA PEOPLE ΜΥΓΔΟΝΕΣ A THRACIAN TRIBE
COMPARE THE MAKEDONIAN CITY CHALKI-DONA

now about glava
lets see

Kunos kephalai, Κυνος κεφαλαι known for the battle of romans with Makedonians,
in ancient Makedonian language is Kunos Kevalai κυνος κεβαλαι

in slavic is kuce glava !!!!!!

Κεφαλαι means central area
κeφαλοχωρι means the center village

there can not be a better example

Μακεδονια read it in your language


you are right
the Greek -Ona -Dona
the North -Dava
the -au
and the Hettit -awa


Nesili language

ahhiy-awa
Milay-awa
Arz-awa
Zalp -uwa

compare it with Wars-awa etc

iapetoc
25-06-11, 17:24
I know that relation exists from mythology...
but I am not really familiar with writings of ancient Greek historians...
when I quote something it is because on internet it is easy to search through books...

ok Celts expand to west dinaric and reach and enter Greece until Aetolia,
Cadmus and Illyrus send them back to monte negro .
creation of illyria ancient Greek generation where the distinguish of celtus places them were noric are found later


their lost, opened the land for liburni etc to inhabit area
that time celts Norici are from N italy to Slovenia to Pannonian area,
later another group the gauls entered in balkans and lose and move to dacia and from there to minor asia

follow greek and strabo
celts 2 times enter the balcans,

and were pushed north to danub
there is celtic blood in balkans more than some think or counter
but as serbian = celtic is deniable neither celtic = serbian
you can not put a name of a slavic intruder to an older pre-intruder or settler, it is unholy
it is like call you ottoman before libertion of Balkans
would you like that?
as serb in 1800 someone to call you ottoman?
Serbian unification is after 600 and is given baltic-slavic colour and culture
that means all the celtic thracian roman and greek are lost as a nation, (not as relics)

that is why Greeks get mad when they hear skopje,

Like i did when hear Dagne without a shame to continue that pan-slavism and name the bugari intruders or traitors as Macedonians,
it is unholy,

Dagne
25-06-11, 18:11
what Macedonian???????????????


Oh I am sorry! I wasn't thinking :embarassed: So how would you call the language what is spoken in THAT country?

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 18:26
what Macedonian???????????????
so you come to the Greek -Dona -ona wich means area of same things, same nation people,
Chalki-dona (chalki nation area)
or greek chiken house male Ornith-ona
or area of grapes - ampell-ona

it was about word "gradina"

-din is celtic ending, not Greek




IN MAKEDONIAN THE Word IS -DONA
COMPARE THE MYG-DONA PEOPLE ΜΥΓΔΟΝΕΣ A THRACIAN TRIBE
COMPARE THE MAKEDONIAN CITY CHALKI-DONA
celtic?



now about glava
lets see

Kunos kephalai, Κυνος κεφαλαι known for the battle of romans with Makedonians,
in ancient Makedonian language is Kunos Kevalai κυνος κεβαλαι

in slavic is kuce glava !!!!!!

Κεφαλαι means central area
κeφαλοχωρι means the center village

there can not be a better example

Μακεδονια read it in your language


Dagne is wrong "glava" = head..it is a word, not a suffix...
it may appear (rarely) in the end of word e.g. as part of coin name as in "Triglav" (tri = 3, Triglav is mountain in Slovenia and one of Slavic deities)



you are right
the Greek -Ona -Dona
the North -Dava
the -au
and the Hettit -awa


Nesili language

ahhiy-awa
Milay-awa
Arz-awa
Zalp -uwa

compare it with Wars-awa etc

well, yes, I claim long time on this forum, that Hittite is linked to pre-Balto-Slavic... and Lech (Poles) to Lycia



ok Celts expand to west dinaric and reach and enter Greece until Aetolia,
Cadmus and Illyrus send them back to monte negro .
creation of illyria ancient Greek generation where the distinguish of celtus places them were noric are found later

their lost, opened the land for liburni etc to inhabit area
that time celts Norici are from N italy to Slovenia to Pannonian area,
Russian primary chronicle states that Noricans are also of Slavic origin...


After the flood, the sons of Noah (Shem, Ham, and Japheth) divided the earth among them. To the lot of Shem fell the Orient, and his share extended lengthwise as far as India and breadthwise (i.e., from east to south) as far as Rhinocurura, including Persia and Bactria, as well as Syria, Media (which lies beside the Euphrates River), Babylon, Cordyna, Assyria, Mesopotamia, Arabia the Ancient, Elymais, India,Arabia the Mighty, Coelesyria, Commagene, and all Phoenicia. To the lot of Ham fell the southern region, comprising Egypt, Ethiopia facing toward India, the other Ethiopia out of which the red Ethiopian river flows to the eastward, the Thebaid, Libya as far as Cyrene, Marmar is, Syrtis, and other Libya, Numidia, Massyris, and Maurentania over against Cadiz. Among the regions of the Orient, Ham also received Cilicia, Pamphylia, Mysia,
Lycaonia, Phrygia, Camalia, Lycia, Caria, Lydia, the rest of Moesia, Troas, Aeolia, Bithynia, and ancient Phrygia. He likewise acquired the islands of Sardinia, Crete, and Cyprus, and the river Gihon, called the Nile.
To the lot of Japheth fell the northern and the western sections, including Media, Albania, Armenia (both little and great), Cappadocia, Paphlagonia, Galatia, Colchis, Bosporus, Maeotis, Dervis, Sarmatia, Tauria, Scythia, Thrace, Macedonia, Dalmatia, Molossia, Thessaly, Locris, Pellene (which is also called the Peloponnese), Arcadia, Epirus, Illyria, the Slavs, Lychnitis and Adriaca, from which the Adriatic Sea is named. He received also the islands of Britain, Sicily, Euboea, Rhodes, Chios, Lesbos, Cythera, Zacynthus, Cephallenia, Ithaca, and Corcyra, as well as a portion of the land of Asia called Ionia, the river Tigris flowing between the Medes and Babylon and the territory to the north extending as far as the Pontus and including the Danube, the Dniester, and the Carpathian Mountains, which are called Hungarian, and thence even to the
Dnipro [Dnieper]. He likewise acquired dominion over other rivers, among them the Desna, the Pripet', the Dvina, the Volkhov, and the Volga, which flows eastward into the portion of Shem.
In the share of Japheth lies Rus', Chud, and all the gentiles: Merya, Muroma, Ves', Mordva, Chud beyond the portages, Perm', Pechera, Yam', Ugra, Litva, Zimegola, Kors', Let'gola, and Liv'. The Lyakhs, the Prussians, and Chud border on the Varangian Sea. The Varangians dwell on the shores of that same sea, and extend to the eastward as far as the portion of Shem. They likewise live to the west beside this sea as far as the land of the English and the French. For the following nations also are a part of the race of Japheth: the Varangians, the Swedes, the Normans, the Gotlanders, the Rus', the English, the Spaniards, the Italians, the Romans, the Germans, the French, the Venetians, the Genoese, and so on. Their homes are situated in the
northwest, and adjoin the Hamitic tribes.
Thus Shem, Ham, and Japheth divided the earth among them, and after casting lots, so that none might encroach upon his brother’s share, they lived each in his appointed portion. There was but one spoken language, and as mankind multiplied throughout the earth, they planned, in the days of Yoktan and Peleg, to build a tower as high as heaven itself. Thus they gathered together in the plain of Shinar to build the tower and the city of Babylon round about it. But they wrought upon the tower for forty years, and it was unfinished. Then the Lord God descended to look upon the city and the tower, and said, “This race is one, and their tongue is one.” So the
Lord confused the tongues, and after dividing the people into seventy-two races, he scattered them over the whole world. After the confusion of the tongues, God overthrew the tower with a great wind, and the ruin of it lies between Assur and Babylon. In height and in breadth it is 5400 and 33 cubits, and the ruin was preserved for many years. After the destruction of the tower and the division of the nations, the sons of Shem occupied the eastern regions, and sons of Ham those of the south, and the sons of Japheth the western and the northern lands. Among these seventy-two nations, the Slavic race is derived from the line of Japheth, since they are the Noricians, who are identical with the Slavs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primary_Chronicle
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf


later another group the gauls entered in balkans and lose and move to dacia and from there to minor asia

follow greek and strabo
celts 2 times enter the balcans,

and were pushed north to danub
there is celtic blood in balkans more than some think or counter
but as serbian = celtic is deniable neither celtic = serbian
you can not put a name of a slavic intruder to an older pre-intruder or settler, it is unholy
no offence, but based on ancient DNA, E-V13 and J2 people are intruders in Europe compared to I2a and R1a people...



it is like call you ottoman before libertion of Balkans
would you like that?
as serb in 1800 someone to call you ottoman?
Serbian unification is after 600 and is given baltic-slavic colour and culture
that means all the celtic thracian roman and greek are lost as a nation, (not as relics)

tribal names Serbs, Sherdana, Serdi/Scordisci/Sarbans/Kurds/Sardinians are in my opinion of same origin....
other versions include Zeruiani/Serians/ white Syrians/Cimmerians/Serres...

I do not say all those people = modern Serbs
I say that there is continuity of tribal names and genetics (I2)...
and when I speak of past I speak of proto-Serbs and not of Serbs...



that is why Greeks get mad when they hear skopje,
the reason Greeks are so obsessed with Slavic Macedonians state name is that you fear of teritorial pretensions.... there is no proof or clue that ancient Macedonians (except perhaps for their royal family) were originally of hellenic origin...


it is unholy,
Greeks as most Europeans are rather recent arrival to Europe...
it is questionable even whether Illiad and Odysey are about helenic or about pre-helenic people....

as far as we know Homer may as well be encoded nationality of poet (Gomer, thus Cimmerian/Serian) and not personal name....

Roberto Salinas Price, mexican linguist (known for claim that Troy was not in Asia minor but probably in Bosnia on Neretva river), based his conclusions also on observation that Homer's work looks largely as translated to Greek from some proto-Slavic like language..... on his web sites he explains part of reconstruction...

http://www.homer.com.mx/index.html

I am curious to hear your opinion about reconstruction he makes... but on some new topic...

iapetoc
25-06-11, 18:52
Oh I am sorry! I wasn't thinking :embarassed: So how would you call the language what is spoken in THAT country?

Personally slavo-Makedonian
but official world wide there is no conclude on how to name it.

Dagne
25-06-11, 18:53
so, in coin "tvrđava" it is clear loan from Dacian
if Lithuanian is Dacian derived, why 'tvirtovė' in Lithuanian and not e.g. "tvirtdava"?



I think you'll agree that the word tvrđava consists of stem tvrd, suffix -av, and ending -a, right?

The stem of the word tverd/t is common for balto-slavic languages (Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, South Slavic, Lithuanian, etc) and in many languages the word "fortress" is derived with a stem "tverd/t", rigth ?

You see, with this overall picture one cannot really claim that Serbian tvrdava was loaned from Dacian dava ... which misses three letters of the stem word tvrd/t that are kept in all other words of this etymology ...

iapetoc
25-06-11, 19:04
are you nuts?

all name toponyms and low class speach is a dialect of Aeolian?
search pella katadesmos,
the reason you Serbs name macedonia that area is to avoid a battle with Bulgarians,
cause macedonians although serbs in gennetic follow Bulgarian culture,
you left north from nis and kossovo and behind again you left a tribe which do not know were it belong and create a fake nation inheritage.

since Makedonians are slavs and enter the 6 th century (I wonder who say that)
or if ancient thracians were pure Balto- slavic then why you try to connect serbs with Celtic,
so Makedonians were thracian = slavic but serbs = celtic so celtic = slavic ?

tomorrow Bulgarians = Balkars = Turks so Turks are slavic !!!! :grin:

And maybe syrria and damascus is Serb to,

Dagne
25-06-11, 19:08
Greeks as most Europeans are rather recent arrival to Europe...
it is questionable even whether Illiad and Odysey are about helenic or about pre-helenic people....

as far as we know Homer may as well be encoded nationality of poet (Gomer, thus Cimmerian/Serian) and not personal name....

Roberto Salinas Price, mexican linguist (known for claim that Troy was not in Asia minor but probably in Bosnia on Neretva river), based his conclusions also on observation that Homer's work looks largely as translated to Greek from some proto-Slavic like language..... on his web sites he explains part of reconstruction...


Oh come come how yes no... Relax, Slavic peoples and Serbians in particular can be proud of many heroic deeds, but the cradle of European civilisation is Greece. I am afraid it sound banal but it is true ...
And Homer wasn’t Slavic, no hopes for that I am afraid, too…

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 19:11
I think you'll agree that the word tvrđava consists of stem tvrd, suffix -av, and ending -a, right?

The stem of the word tverd/t is common for balto-slavic languages (Polish, Russian, Ukrainian, South Slavic, Lithuanian, etc) and in many languages the word "fortress" is derived with a stem "tverd/t", rigth ?

You see, with this overall picture one cannot really claim that Serbian tvrdava was loaned from Dacian dava ... which misses three letters of the stem word tvrd/t that are kept in all other word of this etymology ...

nope, you didnot read my posts carefully....

tvrd+dina = tvrdina ... = strong + celtic ending for town, fortified settlement
tvrd+ava is tvrdava which is quite different from tvrđava

but tvrd + dava = strong + dacian ending for town/fortified settlement
can give tvrđava

those 2 examples in fact suggest that proto-Balto-Slavs may have lived in unfortified villages around Dacian and Celtic fortified settlements/ towns..... so, the word for fortified settlements is imported and joined with word for strong to give word for fortress...



Oh come come how yes no... Relax, Slavic peoples and Serbians in particular can be proud of many heroic deeds, but the cradle of European civilisation is Greece. I am afraid it sound banal but it is true ...
And Homer wasn’t Slavic, no hopes for that I am afraid, too…
oh, there is no doubt about that...
I always emphasize that ancient Greek civilization is foundation of European one...
however, haplogroups dominant in Greeks are genetically much more recent arrivals to Europe than I2a and R1a people... so, when Iapetoc speaks of intruders he should watch his tongue...



all name toponyms and low class speach is a dialect of Aeolian?
search pella katadesmos,
but what year you talk about?


the reason you Serbs name macedonia that area is to avoid a battle with Bulgarians,
cause macedonians although serbs in gennetic follow Bulgarian culture,
you left north from nis and kossovo and behind again you left a tribe which do not know were it belong and create a fake nation inheritage.
nope, Serbs called Macedonia south or old Serbia...
Tito introduced Macedonians as nation, same as he made nation of Monenegers who before him considered themselves elite Serbs, and of Bosnia muslims


since Makedonians are slavs and enter the 6 th century (I wonder who say that)
or if ancient thracians were pure Balto- slavic then why you try to connect serbs with Celtic,
so Makedonians were thracian = slavic but serbs = celtic so celtic = slavic ?
there are two components in genetics of Slavs: R1a and I2a...
I think R1a were originally people like Scythians, Thracians, while I2a were Celtic people - Cimmerians( = Serians = Zeruiani ) /Gomer whose state comprised Scythian/Thracian elements ... I2a2 is highest in Serbs, Croats, Galicia in Ukraine, in Bohemia
Bohemia = land of Celtic Boii, and Galicia being term used for lands of Celts
so why wouldn't Serbs and Croats origin from Scordisci/Serdi and Helvetti?
that fits very well with what Russian primary chronicle suggests about Danubian Slavs moving north when pushed by Vlakhs (roman empire)...

also Seneca says that in Europe Serians live along Danube and rule over scattered Scythians... now note how big is spread of Serians according to Seneca. ..Europe, Serica (northwest China), arc from China to India, Red sea, Caspian highlands...
Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it....
clearly Zeruiani = Serians.... but who are they?

Scythians, Cimmerians and Sarmatians are only 3 big tribes that strech both to Europe and asia
Seneca says Serians rule over Scythians and live unguarded from Sarmatians... this lives Cimmerians as only candidate for Serians...

look at Thraco-Cimmerians findings.... btw. note that Thraco comes from Greek authors thinking that Cimmerians are same as Thracians... and note that The findings are not in south Thrace....but in area along Danube which is in Thrace in area of Triballi (note that byzantine sources occasionally use name Triballi for modern Serbs)
...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

that is I2a spread before west part of it moved towards south to Dalmatia in 6th century... (also earlier as Pannonians)

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

but Cimmerian are original Celts according to Josephus...
Cimmerians = Gomer is practically widely accepted...
and according to Hebrew world Gomer = ancestor of Germanic people
Cappadocia is settled by Cimmerians, hence name Gamir, but in Strabo's time white Syrians live there
and today I2a2 Kurds... so we have clear link Cimmerians-white Syrians-I2a2
now, let's focus on tribal name Gomer... according to Roman historians it is exonym used to denote true Celts

I2a hotspots -Serbs, Croats, Galicia (word derived from Gals = Celts), Bohemia (Celtic Boii)... I2a spread - along Danube...




tomorrow Bulgarians = Balkars = Turks so Turks are slavic !!!! :grin:
I do not think Bulgars were originally turkic actually...
I think they origin from thracians that migrated to north along Black sea shores when pressed by roman empire spread....same as Scordisci/Serdi in my opinion migrated along Danube to Bohemia to come back as white Serbs in 6th century....

you yourself made relation to Vulkan/Hefest...


And maybe syrria and damascus is Serb to,
it is not Serb, but origin of name is related to spread of I2 Serians state that according to Seneca did also reach Red sea...



Oh come come how yes no... Relax, Slavic peoples and Serbians in particular can be proud of many heroic deeds, but the cradle of European civilisation is Greece. I am afraid it sound banal but it is true ...
And Homer wasn’t Slavic, no hopes for that I am afraid, too…

I do not claim that...
renown linguist from neutral country proposes that...
I just say well it is possible...

iapetoc
25-06-11, 21:47
nope, you didnot read my posts carefully....

tvrd+dina = tvrdina ... = strong + celtic ending for town, fortified settlement
tvrd+ava is tvrdava which is quite different from tvrđava

but tvrd + dava = strong + dacian ending for town/fortified settlement
can give tvrđava

those 2 examples in fact suggest that proto-Balto-Slavs may have lived in unfortified villages around Dacian and Celtic fortified settlements/ towns..... so, the word for fortified settlements is imported and joined with word for strong to give word for fortress...



oh, there is no doubt about that...
I always emphasize that ancient Greek civilization is foundation of European one...
however, haplogroups dominant in Greeks are genetically much more recent arrivals to Europe than I2a and R1a people... so, when Iapetoc speaks of intruders he should watch his tongue...



but what year you talk about?


nope, Serbs called Macedonia south or old Serbia...
Tito introduced Macedonians as nation, same as he made nation of Monenegers who before him considered themselves elite Serbs, and of Bosnia muslims


there are two components in genetics of Slavs: R1a and I2a...
I think R1a were originally people like Scythians, Thracians, while I2a were Celtic people - Cimmerians( = Serians = Zeruiani ) /Gomer whose state comprised Scythian/Thracian elements ... I2a2 is highest in Serbs, Croats, Galicia in Ukraine, in Bohemia
Bohemia = land of Celtic Boii, and Galicia being term used for lands of Celts
so why wouldn't Serbs and Croats origin from Scordisci/Serdi and Helvetti?
that fits very well with what Russian primary chronicle suggests about Danubian Slavs moving north when pushed by Vlakhs (roman empire)...

also Seneca says that in Europe Serians live along Danube and rule over scattered Scythians... now note how big is spread of Serians according to Seneca. ..Europe, Serica (northwest China), arc from China to India, Red sea, Caspian highlands...
Bavarian geographer says that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it....
clearly Zeruiani = Serians.... but who are they?

Scythians, Cimmerians and Sarmatians are only 3 big tribes that strech both to Europe and asia
Seneca says Serians rule over Scythians and live unguarded from Sarmatians... this lives Cimmerians as only candidate for Serians...

look at Thraco-Cimmerians findings.... btw. note that Thraco comes from Greek authors thinking that Cimmerians are same as Thracians... and note that The findings are not in south Thrace....but in area along Danube which is in Thrace in area of Triballi (note that byzantine sources occasionally use name Triballi for modern Serbs)
...
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

that is I2a spread before west part of it moved towards south to Dalmatia in 6th century... (also earlier as Pannonians)

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif

but Cimmerian are original Celts according to Josephus...
Cimmerians = Gomer is practically widely accepted...
and according to Hebrew world Gomer = ancestor of Germanic people
Cappadocia is settled by Cimmerians, hence name Gamir, but in Strabo's time white Syrians live there
and today I2a2 Kurds... so we have clear link Cimmerians-white Syrians-I2a2
now, let's focus on tribal name Gomer... according to Roman historians it is exonym used to denote true Celts

I2a hotspots -Serbs, Croats, Galicia (word derived from Gals = Celts), Bohemia (Celtic Boii)... I2a spread - along Danube...



I do not think Bulgars were originally turkic actually...
I think they origin from thracians that migrated to north along Black sea shores when pressed by roman empire spread....same as Scordisci/Serdi in my opinion migrated along Danube to Bohemia to come back as white Serbs in 6th century....

you yourself made relation to Vulkan/Hefest...


it is not Serb, but origin of name is related to spread of I2 Serians state that according to Seneca did also reach Red sea...




I do not claim that...
renown linguist from neutral country proposes that...
I just say well it is possible...


you are nuts,

Homeric is written not in slavic not even in Thracian but in Proto Greek
that language is Greco-Persian not even hittite
from that language split the IE Greek the doric and the Aeolian
later that language became unite with Athenean latin-semitic and create greek

Makedonian even at low class speak aeolian epirotan not even word from south slavic or Serbian,

Besides if you at least new a littlle thracian or Greek the suddenly you will understand
Dorieis Trichakes
Bryges Thriikes
city center Trikke

in fact even translated you can not understand hommer
and 4% are guess cause we have lost language,
Homeric is only 20% of modern greek language due to romans and Byzantines,
who f up the language

Besides since you like to play it Celtic and Thracian give the names of primary God and the Orphic religion
I quess you never asked who were the gods of ancient Thracians
cause you stay behind the BIG Slavic family and play it god and now claim that Anatolians were Slavic,

Yes Serbi came from africa to arabia and Sheba kingdom then moved Syria to minor asia by sharpedon then moved to Europe to Scordus mountain, then moved east to caucas to Serbi area then return to Bella serbia and finaly moved to serbia that is today, but before the take a holiday trip to boii
your theory,

Grats

Besides when you talk about intruders you better watch out

G is the oldest in Europe
J2a enters Europe before 8 000 years
so take a look of times and then tell me who is older

No Further expand cause i have to insult if I continue

Simply tell me the names of Thracian gods
and why triballi is no more in use.

besides we are are home erectus or cro magnon?


If slavic is anatolian and hittite
then the order goes like this

Hittite 2000 BC
lycaonians ????
enter balkans and became thracians ok means 1300 BC at least
thracians expand north meet the scythians and the baltic and became slavic
and the returned back to balkans???

is that you are saying?
sambazios is about 900-800 Bc when brygians moved east

older name for Makedonia is Ematheia
I wonder does it means something to you or in Fyroms language?
also Pieria , Pierii is the tribe that makedonians fight
cause it means in another language

zanipolo
25-06-11, 22:17
that implies that Illyrian is somewhat incorporated in (south?) Slavic, because this is very often used suffix in nouns and is used to designate location....
if it was passed via placenames from Illyrians than it wouldnot exist as widely used suffix that designates location.... (read my previous post on this topic)

no, you are wrong, it implies that since illyrian is older than slavic, then the slavs accepted/used/took these illyrian words into the slavic vocabulary. in the Balkan area, because you cannot find these in the MAIN slavic area of Russia

zanipolo
25-06-11, 22:28
only historic contact with Turkey is on that map you show of Poland-Lithuania... which was Balto-Slavic state in which Slavic Poles, Ukrainians and Belarus went under name of Poland... Poles just mean field people.. so any Slavic people can accept that as tribal identity... while real tribal name of Poles is Lech/Lechia (Lyakhs in Russian primary chronicle).... in fact origin may be the same as of Lycians in Asia minor who were also known as Lukka sea peoples... but that originally could have meant mountain people...

words are imported either by conquest or trough trade...
there was no substantial trade between Otoman empire and Poland...
and Poland was never under Ottoman empire...

and if word spread in times of Poland-Lithuania coin state, it would probably exist in Lithuanian as well...

it is very possible that the word comes from Ottomans.... but it also might have been around in Balkan, east Europe and Anatolia before them as well... something to think about is when boots were invented and when Polish people have started using them.... could it be as late as Poland-Lithuania state (1569–1795)?

this map is the years between 1580 - 1610
venice lost cyprus to the ottomans in 1574
Venice regained Dalmatia in 1624
Venice reunited its lands between terafirma ( veneto mainland) and istria ( except trieste) after the war against Austria ( gorizia war of 1614-1617)

So, in the use of it as per the discussion, it is irrelevant, because since Wallachia was a vassal state of the ottomans for centuries via its southern border, wallachia was in contact with the poles or lituatians from the north. Wallachia was the area where lingiustic words/vocabulary where exchanged between the ottomans and the poles/slavs

iapetoc
25-06-11, 22:35
Sory dagne

your thread became again a fighting arena

to return to thread
from ancient times we know a small diference among thracians and dacians
thracian was more towards iranian persian and anatolian while Dacian?

if I accept that dacian is baltic or slavic or germanic etc
and thracian is also slavic baltic germanic
that means romanian is out of discuss and brygian out of discuss
and skudet case means that persians were also slavic
so we make the whole IE just a slavic language
and since slavic = celtic in another tread wow the case goes far,

i believe in a para slavic (that term i learn from taranis, althouth it is a greek word)
or a pre slavic,
or thracians moved north meat the baltic and return south as slavic

as you see all my debates and argue have at least a weak or a strong basis,

in fact I believe that cyrill slavonization is stronger than some of us think or imagine

the nesuli language could help us more in linguistic.

in fact my always question is Brygian
in brygian we find many modern greek ,
many changed today slavic
and enough simmilar to persian iranian

so if Brygians = celtic or germanic or thracian or slavic the situation ballance

by the language of Brygians we find a language that is connected with greek and Iranian but in tottaly different sounds and isotones with south slavic
that means that indeed modern slavic is imported in balkans

the echinos pomaks language has enough greek and slavic but sounds like Greek and follows another grammar than bulgarians
the written thracian words by greeks prove a slavic influence but not that high cause we find many persian and unknown words and some non IE connected with turkish and latin but a small %
the possibilty of thracians = Celtic hmmm I dont know
I believe in pre-slavic or in a para slavic language or towards germanic
but the reconstruction is made after balto-slavic sounds and not thracian or romanian sounds


by the way Lithuania alter name is Lietuva ?
what does it mean?
or after for?

zanipolo
25-06-11, 22:37
ok Celts expand to west dinaric and reach and enter Greece until Aetolia,
Cadmus and Illyrus send them back to monte negro .
creation of illyria ancient Greek generation where the distinguish of celtus places them were noric are found later


their lost, opened the land for liburni etc to inhabit area
that time celts Norici are from N italy to Slovenia to Pannonian area,
later another group the gauls entered in balkans and lose and move to dacia and from there to minor asia

follow greek and strabo
celts 2 times enter the balcans,

and were pushed north to danub
there is celtic blood in balkans more than some think or counter
but as serbian = celtic is deniable neither celtic = serbian
you can not put a name of a slavic intruder to an older pre-intruder or settler, it is unholy
it is like call you ottoman before libertion of Balkans
would you like that?
as serb in 1800 someone to call you ottoman?
Serbian unification is after 600 and is given baltic-slavic colour and culture
that means all the celtic thracian roman and greek are lost as a nation, (not as relics)

that is why Greeks get mad when they hear skopje,

Like i did when hear Dagne without a shame to continue that pan-slavism and name the bugari intruders or traitors as Macedonians,
it is unholy,

You say norici as a linguistic meaning?. because Noricum was where the celtic and illyric languages mixed.
The true illyrian linguistc area was south of the neretva river, going north it was called "proto-dalmatic" which ceased at the liburni and lopsi trbes, these became "proto-venetic". So, in reference to your word norici, historians are still in discussion if the celtic language actually mixed with the "pure" illyric or the slang illyric called venetic

zanipolo
25-06-11, 22:48
[QUOTE=how yes no;373658]

Russian primary chronicle states that Noricans are also of Slavic origin...


LOL, russian history must start in 400AD then




no offence, but based on ancient DNA, E-V13 and J2 people are intruders in Europe compared to I2a and R1a people...

No, offence but I2 was before I2a and I2a was same time as E-v13 and J2. Where do you get your bias information from?


the reason Greeks are so obsessed with Slavic Macedonians state name is that you fear of teritorial pretensions.... there is no proof or clue that ancient Macedonians (except perhaps for their royal family) were originally of hellenic origin...


When both greeks and slavs realise that the ancient macedonians no longer exist is when something will be sorted out. They must realise these ancient macedonians ( who are neither greek or slavic ) have disappeared like the ancient illyrians and thracians

Taranis
25-06-11, 23:06
Sory dagne

your thread became again a fighting arena


When both greeks and slavs realise that the ancient macedonians no longer exist is when something will be sorted out. They must realise these ancient macedonians ( who are neither greek or slavic ) have disappeared like the ancient illyrians and thracians

Quoted for truth, the both of you.

Now, regarding the Norici: from what little is known, they were a Celtic-speaking people akin to the Gauls and the Galatians. There are also very short inscriptions from the region (written in a variety of the Etruscan alphabet) which back this up.

http://www.univie.ac.at/indogermanistik/bilder/quellentexte/ptuj.2.gif

Furthermore:

- Ptolemy records Celtic town names on the territory of the Norici (for example, "Gobanodurum", "Gesodurum").
- Pliny claims that "Norici" is an other name for "Taurisci"
- Strabo (in book VII, chapter 2.2) states that the Taurisci are Galatians.

Dagne
25-06-11, 23:14
Sory dagne

your thread became again a fighting arena


... ah ...



by the way Lithuania alter name is Lietuva ?
what does it mean?
or after for?

Lietuva most probably means the land of rain (which is very much true :disappointed:)
Lietus = rain

iapetoc
25-06-11, 23:20
hahahaha

IE language

Homeric υετος uetos that u is short and mostly to iu you
the land is υετις -δος uetida
ορ υετις -tinthos uetiθα
most proper the first due to (')

In thracian form (as the greek written of thracian grammary)
that is υετουδα uet-ouda
ok it is IE
but uva -uda (ουδα) not d but th
hmm vowel sounds equal !!!!

just for the record of Homer's
ty

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 23:27
no, you are wrong, it implies that since illyrian is older than slavic, then the slavs accepted/used/took these illyrian words into the slavic vocabulary. in the Balkan area, because you cannot find these in the MAIN slavic area of Russia

english: construction site
serbian:gradilište
Czech: staveniště
Slovak: staveniska
macedonian:gradilišteto

english: purgatory
serbian: čistilište
russian: chistilishche
macedonian:čistilišteto
bulgarian: chistilishte

I am lazy to search for more words, but suffix exists for sure in Czech....
how can it be in Czech and Serbian, but not in Slovene, Russian... if there was no movement of people from Balkan to Czech republic area as I suggested with Scordisci migrating back to Bohemia under pressure of roman empire and moving back as Serbs later...

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 23:35
No, offence but I2 was before I2a and I2a was same time as E-v13 and J2. Where do you get your bias information from?


lol, besides claim on timing being incorrect, you do not even realize that I2a comes from I2

zanipolo
25-06-11, 23:37
english: construction site
serbian:gradilište
Czech: staveniště
Slovak: staveniska
macedonian:gradilišteto

english: purgatory
serbian: čistilište
russian: chistilishche
macedonian:čistilišteto
bulgarian: chistilishte

I am lazy to search for more words, but suffix exists for sure in Czech....
how can it be in Czech and Serbian, but not in Slovene, Russian... if there was no movement of people from Balkan to Czech republic area as I suggested with Scordisci migrating back to Bohemia under pressure of roman empire and moving back as Serbs later...

:confused2::confused2::confused2::confused2: whats this mean in regard sto my reference

zanipolo
25-06-11, 23:40
lol, besides claim on timing being incorrect, you do not even realize that I2a comes from I2

I know it comes from I2, its you who is giving wrong information by date . 12a is same time as J2 and e-v13 , but I2 is befroe all of them.

Do not distort dates by mixing the a in the I2 and using it to announce its before the J2 etc

zanipolo
25-06-11, 23:45
Quoted for truth, the both of you.

Now, regarding the Norici: from what little is known, they were a Celtic-speaking people akin to the Gauls and the Galatians. There are also very short inscriptions from the region (written in a variety of the Etruscan alphabet) which back this up.

http://www.univie.ac.at/indogermanistik/bilder/quellentexte/ptuj.2.gif

Furthermore:

- Ptolemy records Celtic town names on the territory of the Norici (for example, "Gobanodurum", "Gesodurum").
- Pliny claims that "Norici" is an other name for "Taurisci"
- Strabo (in book VII, chapter 2.2) states that the Taurisci are Galatians.

since its used by the Etruscan alphabet and this alphabet was used by the rhaeti and the venetics in their language , then why do you call it Celtic-speaking people ?

iapetoc
26-06-11, 00:01
sorry no post here

how can i delete it

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 00:11
you are nuts,

Homeric is written not in slavic not even in Thracian but in Proto Greek
I never claimed it is...
I just notice that Roberto Salinas Price reknown linguist says that it was clearly translated to proto-Greek from some proto-Slavic language... so I say it is possible as well...
http://www.homer.com.mx/Heroic_Age/IAOLKOS.html



Makedonian even at low class speak aeolian epirotan not even word from south slavic or Serbian,
you lived in ancient Macedonia?


Besides if you at least new a littlle thracian or Greek the suddenly you will understand
Dorieis Trichakes
Bryges Thriikes
city center Trikke
you expect one word to be reflected in all languages related to some parent civilization?

what is Slavic "Trg" (town center, market) than same word?
note Slavic "trgovac" (merchant) and Illyrian "tertigio" (merchant)


in fact even translated you can not understand hommer
and 4% are guess cause we have lost language,
Homeric is only 20% of modern greek language due to romans and Byzantines,
who f up the language
noone f u the language...
speaking languages evolve much faster than many expect...


Besides since you like to play it Celtic and Thracian give the names of primary God and the Orphic religion
I quess you never asked who were the gods of ancient Thracians
cause you stay behind the BIG Slavic family and play it god and now claim that Anatolians were Slavic,
nope i claim Anatolians were first related to Celts, than Germans, than related to Slavic, later they became related to Greeks, and even later to Turks...
Europe was populated from Anatolia...



Yes Serbi came from africa to arabia and Sheba kingdom then moved Syria to minor asia by sharpedon then moved to Europe to Scordus mountain, then moved east to caucas to Serbi area then return to Bella serbia and finaly moved to serbia that is today, but before the take a holiday trip to boii
your theory,

Gratsnope, they originally dwelt in Bohemia and spread as Sherdana and Cimmerians into Asia as deep as red sea where they had kingdom of Sheba and China where Serica was....



Besides when you talk about intruders you better watch out

G is the oldest in Europe
J2a enters Europe before 8 000 years
so take a look of times and then tell me who is older
check your data....



No Further expand cause i have to insult if I continue

calling someone nuts is not insult in Greece?


Simply tell me the names of Thracian gods
and why triballi is no more in use.
because it may have been exonym?



besides we are are home erectus or cro magnon?

I do not know what you are...



If slavic is anatolian and hittite
then the order goes like this

Hittite 2000 BC
lycaonians ????
enter balkans and became thracians ok means 1300 BC at least
thracians expand north meet the scythians and the baltic and became slavic
and the returned back to balkans???

is that you are saying?
sambazios is about 900-800 Bc when brygians moved east
not correct to say Slavic is Hittite...
but Hittite are related to origin of proto-Slavic people....



older name for Makedonia is Ematheia
I wonder does it means something to you or in Fyroms language?
also Pieria , Pierii is the tribe that makedonians fight
cause it means in another language
do you think the world came to existence with invent of Greek language and words Greek authors recorded?

if you want me to guess...

Ematheia

suffix -eja / -ija - is typical ending for lands
e.g. Srbija, Rusija, Eritreja, Somalija, Saudi Arabija, Libija, Britanija, Spanija, Portugalija...

ema is not a word... but we need to take into account that word was perhaps wrongly transcribes by Greeks... so we look for similar sounds...

1) zemlja/zema = land


1a) mati = mother

zema+mati+ja (suffix used often for lands) = (z)ematija
so ematheia could mean stg. like homeland...

2) it could also mean "land of Tea"
however word Tea doesnot exist in modern Slavic except as greek loan in coin words related to religion...
in Slavic, god = Bog

btw. Matija/Mateja is common name in south Slavic people
but it is imported via bible from Hebrew..where it means gift from god

3)

imati = to have
"imatija" would be very reach land, land where everyone have everything...

in fact this is most likely option as it is in coherence with spirit of the language more than other proposals...
I could easily use "zemlja imatija" in a story and every not retarded south Slavic language speaker will know what I meant with it...




Pierria

parija is slave caste in Indian society
any nation stretching to areas near India would know the meaning... Serians would know as Serica also contained arc from China to India....

if I try to map word there are many possibilities in any language... there should be a clue of meaning to make a match.... but why do you expect it to be word from language of pre-Greek settlers?

Taranis
26-06-11, 00:21
since its used by the Etruscan alphabet and this alphabet was used by the rhaeti and the venetics in their language , then why do you call it Celtic-speaking people ?

Well, for starters, the Lepontii and the Gauls who settled in northern Italy also used a variant of the Etruscan alphabet (mind you, so did the Oscan and Umbrian people further to the south in Italy). Just because somebody uses an alphabet doesn't make him automatically speak the language, no? We also use the Latin alphabet. Do we speak Latin? :satisfied:

Now, for explanation the text written above can be transliterated best into Greek letters as:

"ΑΡΤΕΒΥΘΖΒΡΟΨΘΥΙ"

(though Ψ stands for "Chi" and not "Psi")

Which transliterates as:

"Artebuthzbrokhthui"

Now, the Etruscan alphabet did not distinguish between voiced/unvoiced stop consonants, but distinguished between unaspirated/aspirated stop consonants. Celtic languages did distinguish between voiced/unvoiced stop consonants but didn't know aspiration. So what the Celts did was using aspirated stop consonants as voiced ones (Th = D, Kh = G). Which hence yields:

"Artebudz Brogdui"

"Arte-" means "bear", compare:
Gaulish "Artos"
Old Irish "Art"
Welsh "Arth"
Breton "Arzh"

"-budz" means "penis"
compare Gaulish "Bu∂∂uton". "∂∂" here represents the so-called "Tau Gallicum", and the "dz" in Noric probably represented the same sound.
Also compare Irish, Scots Gaelic "Bod"

"Brog-" means "homeland", compare:
- Gaulish tribal "Allobrogi"
- Galatian personal name "Brogitarus"
- Welsh "Bro" ("areas", "distict")
- Breton "Bro" ("country")

"-ui" in Gaulish is Dative. (basically meant as "dedicated towards")

EDIT: Knowing you folks, I suspect at least some of you will step forward and claim "better" translation, point out that Noric is possibly Albanian, Slavic or quite possibly Martian... :laughing:

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 00:27
Well, didn’t I mention before that the ending -dava is also used in Lithuanian place names? Close to Kaunas where I lived in my childhood there was a village named Vaišvydava and also Vaišvydavos giria (forest) which, as you may notice is exactly the same as it might have sounded in Dacian.

-dava is not suffix in that word....

Vaišvydavos is one of gods (devas in Indian) in indian vedas (Vishvedavas)...

Vaišvydavos giria is forst of that god

btw. giria is cognjate with Slavic gora

zanipolo
26-06-11, 01:01
Well, for starters, the Lepontii and the Gauls who settled in northern Italy also used a variant of the Etruscan alphabet (mind you, so did the Oscan and Umbrian people further to the south in Italy). Just because somebody uses an alphabet doesn't make him automatically speak the language, no? We also use the Latin alphabet. Do we speak Latin? :satisfied:

True and it does not make them exclusivly celtic either


Now, for explanation the text written above can be transliterated best into Greek letters as:

"ΑΡΤΕΒΥΘΖΒΡΟΨΘΥΙ"

(though Ψ stands for "Chi" and not "Psi")

Which transliterates as:

"Artebuthzbrokhthui"

Now, the Etruscan alphabet did not distinguish between voiced/unvoiced stop consonants, but distinguished between unaspirated/aspirated stop consonants. Celtic languages did distinguish between voiced/unvoiced stop consonants but didn't know aspiration. So what the Celts did was using aspirated stop consonants as voiced ones (Th = D, Kh = G). Which hence yields:

"Artebudz Brogdui"

"Arte-" means "bear", compare:
Gaulish "Artos"
Old Irish "Art"
Welsh "Arth"
Breton "Arzh"

"-budz" means "penis"
compare Gaulish "Bu∂∂uton". "∂∂" here represents the so-called "Tau Gallicum", and the "dz" in Noric probably represented the same sound.
Also compare Irish, Scots Gaelic "Bod"

"Brog-" means "homeland", compare:
- Gaulish tribal "Allobrogi"
- Galatian personal name "Brogitarus"
- Welsh "Bro" ("areas", "distict")
- Breton "Bro" ("country")

"-ui" in Gaulish is Dative. (basically meant as "dedicated towards")

EDIT: Knowing you folks, I suspect at least some of you will step forward and claim "better" translation, point out that Noric is possibly Albanian, Slavic or quite possibly Martian... :laughing:

I will not claim anything because I do not know the depth of the language, but my point was that the celtic, raeti, venetic, lopontic used the etruscan alphabet and adopted it to suit there needs.
If you say tis celtic, then I can accept it...I just asked the question

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 01:04
I know it comes from I2, its you who is giving wrong information by date . 12a is same time as J2 and e-v13 , but I2 is befroe all of them.

Do not distort dates by mixing the a in the I2 and using it to announce its before the J2 etc
sorry but that is ill reasoning...
you claim that I2 was in Europe before J2 and E-V13, but I2a was in Europe after them....
knowing that I2a is continuation of I2, that statement just makes no sense at all regardless of actual dates..

if I settled an area, how can you be equally native as my grandgrandson by arriving there when he was born?

Taranis
26-06-11, 01:15
True and it does not make them exclusivly celtic either

Ah yeah, I see now what you meant.


I will not claim anything because I do not know the depth of the language, but my point was that the celtic, raeti, venetic, lopontic used the etruscan alphabet and adopted it to suit there needs.
If you say tis celtic, then I can accept it...I just asked the question

I didn't imply that you would make such a claim, nor that it was necessarily somebody in this thread. But, as you know, strange claims about ancient and/or poorly-attested languages happened before on this forum, so I thought a general warning advance was appropriate. :satisfied:

iapetoc
26-06-11, 02:52
english: construction site
serbian:gradilište
Czech: staveniště
Slovak: staveniska
macedonian:gradilišteto

english: purgatory
serbian: čistilište
russian: chistilishche
macedonian:čistilišteto
bulgarian: chistilishte

I am lazy to search for more words, but suffix exists for sure in Czech....
how can it be in Czech and Serbian, but not in Slovene, Russian... if there was no movement of people from Balkan to Czech republic area as I suggested with Scordisci migrating back to Bohemia under pressure of roman empire and moving back as Serbs later...

or the opposite and the acceptance of moravian by Serbs !!!!!!!!!!!!

iapetoc
26-06-11, 02:54
sorry but that is ill reasoning...
you claim that I2 was in Europe before J2 and E-V13, but I2a was in Europe after them....
knowing that I2a is continuation of I2, that statement just makes no sense at all regardless of actual dates..

if I settled an area, how can you be equally native as my grandgrandson by arriving there when he was born?

??????? do you talk about Fyromians?

zanipolo
26-06-11, 03:06
sorry but that is ill reasoning...
you claim that I2 was in Europe before J2 and E-V13, but I2a was in Europe after them....
knowing that I2a is continuation of I2, that statement just makes no sense at all regardless of actual dates..

if I settled an area, how can you be equally native as my grandgrandson by arriving there when he was born?

no, thats not what i said. I said I2 was before all of them and I2a was at a similar time with J2

zanipolo
26-06-11, 03:09
Ah yeah, I see now what you meant.



I didn't imply that you would make such a claim, nor that it was necessarily somebody in this thread. But, as you know, strange claims about ancient and/or poorly-attested languages happened before on this forum, so I thought a general warning advance was appropriate. :satisfied:


how true on strange claims, like someone thinks I am from the USA, i do have dual nationality but not one is USA or albanian, greek, slav

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 04:24
or the opposite and the acceptance of moravian by Serbs !!!!!!!!!!!!
you are not following the storyline...
point was in sharing that suffix with both illyrian and czech,,,
so where does it come from - from Illyrian or from bohemia?
isn't simplest explanation the Scordisci/Serdi moving along Danube?
note that according to Strabo Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians.... Scordisci/Serdi/Serbi moving along Danube would neatly explain both inclusion of illyrian language feature in Czech and Serbian, and E-V13 rather uniformly spread in Serbs indicating older substratum...


Why wouldn't Serdi be same people as Serbi (many older Serb documents write own tribal name as Serbi instead of Srbi as it is correct today) perhaps with language change from celtic to thracian/russian? why wouldn't thracian be same as russian especially knowing that Rasena (Etruscans) are by Greeks called Thyrsenians... thus, using preffix Th in front of Rs of rasena..

wouldnot that be easy explanation? especially if we know that only historic source that writes about settlement of Serbs on Balkan claims they came from Bohemia (that in their language they call Boika) where they have also originally dwelt...


I2a in Europe has sources in Galicia (Gals = Celts), in Bohemia (cradle of Celtic Boii) and in Serbs and Croats...
why would not be valid hypothesis that genetically Serbs origin from Scordisci/Boii (scordisci = ser (head, main, leading)+ boii) and Croats from Helveti?

why is it always assumed that Celts and other inhabitants of Central and east Europe disappeared without trace, and that Slavs came out of thin air... that makes no sense and also genetics doesnot support it...

also in linguistics there is theory of Mario Alinei who based on many features of languages claims that languages in Europe are more or less where they were in distant past as well...

thing is it is very simple.. Thracians (I do not speak about coastal areas that wereGreek settled) and related Dacians were R1a proto-Slavs and Balts... Celtic I2a streched along Danube from Bohemia to Black sea and Asia minor.... E-V13 and R1b Dardanians were in Kosovo, E-V1 and J2b Illyrians and Greeks further south and west...


with Roman spread, as attested in Russian primary chronicle, all those people moved a bit to north... e.g. Helveti went to Galicia, Scordisci following Danube to Bohemia, Thracians following Black sea to Volga, Dacians to Baltic...

Celtic I2a2 Veneti merged into Slavs....
Celtic I2a2 Serbs and Croats merged into Slavs....

with Roman empire decline some of the same people spread to south...Scordisci/Serdi went back down the Danube... Bulgarians from Volga to Thrace...Croats from Galicia to Dalmatia... sounds as pretty reasonable scenario to me...

zanipolo
26-06-11, 05:22
you are not following the storyline...
point was in sharing that suffix with both illyrian and czech,,,
so where does it come from - from Illyrian or from bohemia?
isn't simplest explanation the Scordisci/Serdi moving along Danube?
note that according to Strabo Scordisci lived mixed with Illyrians.... Scordisci/Serdi/Serbi moving along Danube would neatly explain both inclusion of illyrian language feature in Czech and Serbian, and E-V13 rather uniformly spread in Serbs indicating older substratum...


Why wouldn't Serdi be same people as Serbi (many older Serb documents write own tribal name as Serbi instead of Srbi as it is correct today) perhaps with language change from celtic to thracian/russian? why wouldn't thracian be same as russian especially knowing that Rasena (Etruscans) are by Greeks called Thyrsenians... thus, using preffix Th in front of Rs of rasena..

wouldnot that be easy explanation? especially if we know that only historic source that writes about settlement of Serbs on Balkan claims they came from Bohemia (that in their language they call Boika) where they have also originally dwelt...


I2a in Europe has sources in Galicia (Gals = Celts), in Bohemia (cradle of Celtic Boii) and in Serbs and Croats...
why would not be valid hypothesis that genetically Serbs origin from Scordisci/Boii (scordisci = ser (head, main, leading)+ boii) and Croats from Helveti?

why is it always assumed that Celts and other inhabitants of Central and east Europe disappeared without trace, and that Slavs came out of thin air... that makes no sense and also genetics doesnot support it...

also in linguistics there is theory of Mario Alinei who based on many features of languages claims that languages in Europe are more or less where they were in distant past as well...

thing is it is very simple.. Thracians (I do not speak about coastal areas that wereGreek settled) and related Dacians were R1a proto-Slavs and Balts... Celtic I2a streched along Danube from Bohemia to Black sea and Asia minor.... E-V13 and R1b Dardanians were in Kosovo, E-V1 and J2b Illyrians and Greeks further south and west...


with Roman spread, as attested in Russian primary chronicle, all those people moved a bit to north... e.g. Helveti went to Galicia, Scordisci following Danube to Bohemia, Thracians following Black sea to Volga, Dacians to Baltic...

Celtic I2a2 Veneti merged into Slavs....
Celtic I2a2 Serbs and Croats merged into Slavs....

with Roman empire decline some of the same people spread to south...Scordisci/Serdi went back down the Danube... Bulgarians from Volga to Thrace...Croats from Galicia to Dalmatia... sounds as pretty reasonable scenario to me...


As I stated before, the ancient languages are extinct
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paleo-Balkan_languages

you can surmise what you want, but you have a better chance matching serb with germanic, than with celtic.

The first mention of the name "Serbs" appears in the 1st century BC (69- 75), in the Historia naturalis by Plinius Caecilius Secundus, who states that Serbs (Serbi) live on the coast of the Black Sea. In the 2nd century, Claudius Ptolomaius writes in his Geographica that Serbs (Serboi, Sirboi - Serboi, Sirboi) live behind the Caucasus, near the hinterland of the Black Sea. The first mention of the Serbian name on their present ethnical location appears in 822, in the work of Frank chronicler Einhardt (Annales regni Francorum).

LeBrok
26-06-11, 06:06
Now, for explanation the text written above can be transliterated best into Greek letters as:

"ΑΡΤΕΒΥΘΖΒΡΟΨΘΥΙ"

(though Ψ stands for "Chi" and not "Psi")

Which transliterates as:

"Artebuthzbrokhthui"

Now, the Etruscan alphabet did not distinguish between voiced/unvoiced stop consonants, but distinguished between unaspirated/aspirated stop consonants. Celtic languages did distinguish between voiced/unvoiced stop consonants but didn't know aspiration. So what the Celts did was using aspirated stop consonants as voiced ones (Th = D, Kh = G). Which hence yields:

"Artebudz Brogdui"

"Arte-" means "bear", compare:
Gaulish "Artos"
Old Irish "Art"
Welsh "Arth"
Breton "Arzh"

"-budz" means "penis"
:laughing:
I've read the word "Artebuthzbrokhthui" and I immediately knew it had something to do with penis. You can find word "hui" still depicted in polish mural "art". :grin:
No we know that Noric was Slavic. :rolleyes2:

Dagne
26-06-11, 08:55
1) zemlja/zema = land

1a) mati = mother

zema+mati+ja (suffix used often for lands) = (z)ematija
so ematheia could mean stg. like homeland...



How funny, there is indeed a land called Žemaitija but it is not in the Balkans and in the Baltic.
Žemaitija means lowland žemas (low is derived from žemė-terra).
Žemaičiai were the most stubborn people who lived in buggy forest in the Western part of Lithuania between Prussia and Livonia near the sea. On the map it is called in Latin Samogitia.
http://www.musicalia.lt/meli/zemelapiai/167997846KuzietM.jpg


Žemaičiai successfully fought against much more powerful Teutonic knights for more than 200 years and never got conquered though Lithuanian Rulers donated Žemaitija or a part of it to Teutonic Order during various negotiations as many as six times. Žemaičiai were converted into Christianity last in Europe and their language is hardy comprehensible for proper Lithuanians.

iapetoc
26-06-11, 11:57
no, thats not what i said. I said I2 was before all of them and I2a was at a similar time with J2

correct in fact they both came from IJ Dna i know and probably from same area
something like twins at early times,

Taranis
26-06-11, 12:02
why is it always assumed that Celts and other inhabitants of Central and east Europe disappeared without trace, and that Slavs came out of thin air... that makes no sense and also genetics doesnot support it...

Well, they disappeared "without a trace" because they were conquered by other peoples, principally by the Romans. What remained of the Celtic-speaking peoples north of the Danube was absorbed by Germanic peoples. There are actually multiple references to this in various sources (Strabo, in particular, but also Ptolemy) how this happened.


also in linguistics there is theory of Mario Alinei who based on many features of languages claims that languages in Europe are more or less where they were in distant past as well...

Mario Alinei is a complete retard who claims that Indo-European languages in Europe can be traced back into the Paleolithic, which is, frankly, complete bullshit that is non-consistent with what we see in the language family. PIE was spoken much, much later. It makes no sense for Paleolithic hunter-gatherers to have words for horses, cows or agriculture if horse and cows had not been domesticated yet and agriculture had not been invented yet. :useless:


with Roman spread, as attested in Russian primary chronicle, all those people moved a bit to north... e.g. Helveti went to Galicia, Scordisci following Danube to Bohemia, Thracians following Black sea to Volga, Dacians to Baltic...

Please stop making up such nonsense. It totally defies any reality:

From Tacitus (Germania, XXVIII) we learn that the Helveti originally (before 1st century BC) lived in the approximate area of what is today Württemberg. Ptolemy (book 2, chapter 10) refers to this area as "Helvetian Desert". In the wake of the Gallic Wars, they migrated into Gaul but were defeated and their remnants settled down in what today is Switzerland and were subsequently latinized, and were later conquered by the Germanic Alemanni.

We have a similar story with the (Bohemian) Boii who were first ravaged by the Cimbri in the late 2nd century BC, and subsequently conquered by the Marcomanni in the 1st century BC. Strabo (in Book 7, Chapter 1.5) also makes reference to a "Boian desert".

All Celtic tribes south of the Danube (Vindelici, Norici, Pannonian Boii, Scordisci, etc.) were conquered by the Romans and became subsequently latinized.

With exception of the Cotini in the western Carpathians (mentioned by Tacitus at XLIII - and also Ptolemy book 2, chapter 10), there were no Celtic-speaking peoples remaining north of the Danube by 2nd century AD because whatever remained of them was absorbed by the Germanic peoples.

iapetoc
26-06-11, 12:07
How funny, there is indeed a land called Žemaitija but it is not in the Balkans and in the Baltic.
Žemaitija means lowland žemas (low is derived from žemė-terra).
Žemaičiai were the most stubborn people who lived in buggy forest in the Western part of Lithuania between Prussia and Livonia near the sea. On the map it is called in Latin Samogitia.
http://www.musicalia.lt/meli/zemelapiai/167997846KuzietM.jpg


Žemaičiai successfully fought against much more powerful Teutonic knights for more than 200 years and never got conquered though Lithuanian Rulers donated Žemaitija or a part of it to Teutonic Order during various negotiations as many as six times. Žemaičiai were converted into Christianity last in Europe and their language is hardy comprehensible for proper Lithuanians.


well there is another another explanation also
the mat from and theia
Mat means area land in Pelasgian compare it with Middle east
there are many Mat in Anatolia and levant and middle east
Mat Theia = land of Gods

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 15:09
The first mention of the name "Serbs" appears in the 1st century BC (69- 75), in the Historia naturalis by Plinius Caecilius Secundus, who states that Serbs (Serbi) live on the coast of the Black Sea. In the 2nd century, Claudius Ptolomaius writes in his Geographica that Serbs (Serboi, Sirboi - Serboi, Sirboi) live behind the Caucasus, near the hinterland of the Black Sea. The first mention of the Serbian name on their present ethnical location appears in 822, in the work of Frank chronicler Einhardt (Annales regni Francorum).

I know Zanipolo, those are Serians who live in Caspian highlands unguarded from Sarmatians....from them came into existance Siraces who lived north of Black sea and those who stayed became turkicized and their name was later recorded as Sabirs. Today Chuvash people carry part of their genetics.

Serians of Asia merged into Kurds and Pasthun Sarbans.
Serbs partly origin from Serians of Europe who lived around Danube and in my opinion that can be only Scordisci /Serdi....Serians are also incorporated in some other Slavic people


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
.....
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.
Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html



I've read the word "Artebuthzbrokhthui" and I immediately knew it had something to do with penis. You can find word "hui" still depicted in polish mural "art". :grin:
No we know that Noric was Slavic. :rolleyes2:

for your info, in Serbo-croat budža is "penis" as in text above... it also has a meaning of someone reach, powerful, the one who decides...




Well, they disappeared "without a trace" because they were conquered by other peoples, principally by the Romans. What remained of the Celtic-speaking peoples north of the Danube was absorbed by Germanic peoples. There are actually multiple references to this in various sources (Strabo, in particular, but also Ptolemy) how this happened.




Mario Alinei is a complete retard who claims that Indo-European languages in Europe can be traced back into the Paleolithic, which is, frankly, complete bullshit that is non-consistent with what we see in the language family. PIE was spoken much, much later. It makes no sense for Paleolithic hunter-gatherers to have words for horses, cows or agriculture if horse and cows had not been domesticated yet and agriculture had not been invented yet. :useless:
Mario Alinei is Professor Emeritus at the University of Utrecht..
what is your title?
forum history teacher wanna be?





Please stop making up such nonsense. It totally defies any reality:

From Tacitus (Germania, XXVIII) we learn that the Helveti originally (before 1st century BC) lived in the approximate area of what is today Württemberg. Ptolemy (book 2, chapter 10) refers to this area as "Helvetian Desert". In the wake of the Gallic Wars, they migrated into Gaul but were defeated and their remnants settled down in what today is Switzerland and were subsequently latinized, and were later conquered by the Germanic Alemanni.
Read carefully....Did i ever mention where Helveti originally were?
it is obvious that Croats are too white for native Mediteraneans....
they didnot live on Adriatic (Though Dalmatians who later merged into them did)
idea that part of Scordisci went back to Bohemia is very logical.. that is their homeland and was still free when Romans conquered Balkan....and this is in accordance with Russian primary chronicle mention of retreat to north due to spread of Vlakhs (Romans)....

second, Slavs are new tribal union.... probably made from Veneti, Thracians, Pannonians, Celtic Scordisci and Helveti, Scythians and Sarmatians...... Slavs didnot arrive from somewhere on east as you imagine....if such a mass of people existed on east they would be recorded.... those were separate tribes with similar languages and cultures that merged....... a hint we have about their unification is manuscript of Bavarian geographer that mentions state of Zeruiani that was so big that all Slavs come from it....it is clear that Zeruiani with big state can only be Serians of Seneca... it is further reasonable assumption that those are in fact Cimmerians...



We have a similar story with the (Bohemian) Boii who were first ravaged by the Cimbri in the late 2nd century BC, and subsequently conquered by the Marcomanni in the 1st century BC. Strabo (in Book 7, Chapter 1.5) also makes reference to a "Boian desert".

All Celtic tribes south of the Danube (Vindelici, Norici, Pannonian Boii, Scordisci, etc.) were conquered by the Romans and became subsequently latinized.
what if some were Slavicized than or later?


With exception of the Cotini in the western Carpathians (mentioned by Tacitus at XLIII - and also Ptolemy book 2, chapter 10), there were no Celtic-speaking peoples remaining north of the Danube by 2nd century AD because whatever remained of them was absorbed by the Germanic peoples.

that is an assumption... because Slavs at that time still are not mention as tribal union... point is we do not really know what exactly was happening... if history is exactly known than forums like this would make no sense...


well there is another another explanation also
the mat from and theia
Mat means area land in Pelasgian compare it with Middle east
there are many Mat in Anatolia and levant and middle east
Mat Theia = land of Gods

ok 3 more propositions:

1) actually, in serbia "međa" is border of land that is someones property
so "medjeja" could have been border land...
nowdays another term is used for border lands "Krajina" derived from word "kraj" = end
Ukraine has that origin...also Krajina was name of Serb lands in Croatia....

2)
in illyrian "metu-" (between) corresponds to serbian "među"/"između" (between)
this is in fact PIE word... e.g. medio, middle..

"među" can be used in coin words to designate location between some things...
e.g. place between rivers would be "medjurečje"
"Medjurečje" is also name of Mesopotamia..
btw. don't you find it strange that Serbs have own word for Mesopotamia that is in fact description of location?
big state of Serians easily explains it....



in illyrian place between rivers would be "Metu" + word for rivers...


3)
one more suggestion it could have been about land of bears
in proto Celtic "matu-" bear , in Slavic word is "medved"....

even now Russians are identified with bears


btw. in Slavic med = honey, vid/ved = vision/ knowledge, in proto-Celtic honey = meli(t)
so the word for bear is possible example of loan to Celtic from Slavic...

Taranis
26-06-11, 15:47
Mario Alinei is Professor Emeritus at the University of Utrecht..
what is your title?
forum history teacher wanna be?

You know that acquiring academic grades does not make people immune from claiming complete bullshit? I have seen too many example of this and know this is verymuch a problem.

Also, I'm not the only one who made such criticism about Alinei's "theories". The impossibility of Neolithic/Chalcolithic terms magically developing in the Mesolithic should be obvious.


Read carefully....Did i ever mention where Helveti originally were?

Yeah, but why assume that the Helveti, after being defeated by Caesar, moved to Galicia? There is absolutely no evidence whatsover, and no connection whatsover. You just randomly cooked this up.


it is obvious that Croats are too white for native Mediteraneans....
they didnot live on Adriatic (Though Dalmatians who later merged into them did)
idea that part of Scordisci went back to Bohemia is very logical.. that is their homeland and was still free when Romans conquered Balkan....and Russian primary chronicle also states this....

That is complete nonsense. Why is it then that the area of Bohemia is inhabited by Marcomanni (according to Strabo, Tacitus and Ptolemy). Why should the Russian chonicle from the 12th century AD more accurate than Greek/Roman sources from 1st/2nd centuries AD? Do you completely ignore what I wrote there?


second, Slavs are new tribal union.... probably made from Veneti, Thracians, Pannonians, Celtic Scordisci and Helveti, Scythians and Sarmatians...... Slavs didnot arrive from somewhere on east as you imagine....if such a mass of people existed on east they would be recorded.... those were separate tribes with similar languages and cultures that merged.......

Sorry, but such a movement was recorded in Byzantine sources.


a hint we have about their unification is manuscript of Bavarian geographer that mentions state of Zeruiani that was so big that all Slavs come from it....it is clear that Zeruiani with big state can only be Serians of Seneca... it is further reasonable assumption that those are in fact Cimmerians...

The Bavarian geographer said no such thing. Also, you know that Ptolemy (book 5, chapter 16) places the Serians roughly into the region that corresponds with western China?


what if some were Slavicized than or later?

Why should they become Slavicized during Roman rule? There certainly were no Slavic peoples within the Roman Empire.


that is an assumption... because Slavs at that time still are not mention as tribal union... point is we do not really know what exactly was happening... if history is exactly known than forums like this would make no sense...

This is not just an assumption, there's quite a bit of evidence for that: Tacitus and Ptolemy mention in great detail the various Germanic peoples. Tacitus explicitly mentions the Cotini as speaking Gaulish.

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 16:11
You know that acquiring academic grades does not make people immune from claiming complete bullshit? I have seen too many example of this and know this is verymuch a problem.

Also, I'm not the only one who made such criticism about Alinei's "theories". The impossibility of Neolithic/Chalcolithic terms magically developing in the Mesolithic should be obvious.

When we had thread about Etruscans, I have tried reading his text that relates Etruscan language to Hungarian, and it didnot make much sense...so personally, I think his theories are on very shaky grounds... but on other hand linguistic continuity makes sense, as we see something similar in genetics...




Yeah, but why assume that the Helveti, after being defeated by Caesar, moved to Galicia? There is absolutely no evidence whatsover, and no connection whatsover. You just randomly cooked this up.
branch of Helveti might have moved there even earlier...
tribes tend to spread their influence...
I think it is a possibility...
in my opinion place name Galicia must be in some way related to Celtic people




That is complete nonsense. Why is it then that the area of Bohemia is inhabited by Marcomanni (according to Strabo, Tacitus and Ptolemy). Why should the Russian chonicle from the 12th century AD more accurate than Greek/Roman sources from 1st/2nd centuries AD? Do you completely ignore what I wrote there?
nope, but Russian primary chronicle records inner version of history preserved through tradition ... that tradition didnot come out of thin air..there was basis for it in some people who actually did migrate from around Danube towards north... how much did they contributed to genetics and linguistic of slavic is questionable...



Sorry, but such a movement was recorded in Byzantine sources.

reference please...
because I don't think it was recorded...
and if there was such an event and if it was recorded, it could not be in Byzantine sources, but in late Roman empire sources...



The Bavarian geographer said no such thing. Also, you know that Ptolemy (book 5, chapter 16) places the Serians roughly into the region that corresponds with western China?
he did... I saw it quoted on zillion places...

northwest China is Serica where Serians produced silk... Serica is also arc from China to India....
Seneca speaks of Serians for fleece famous...
but he also places Serians in Europe - around Danube and ruling over Scythians, on Red sea, in Caspian highlands living unguarded from Sarmatians...
besides being named Serians, people of Serica are also called Serres...
ancient Greek historians record Serres living north of Greeks... e.g. Aristotle writes about Serres known for their longevity living upon mount Athos... we know about that record via Pliny...


Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html




Why should they become Slavicized during Roman rule? There certainly were no Slavic peoples within the Roman Empire.
that is big assumption...



This is not just an assumption, there's quite a bit of evidence for that: Tacitus and Ptolemy mention in great detail the various Germanic peoples. Tacitus explicitly mentions the Cotini as speaking Gaulish.
did they write something about languages of people in Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Slovakia?

iapetoc
26-06-11, 16:43
did they write something about languages of people in Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Slovakia?


why Slavic language with its today from existed in Balkans?

not Serbs Not Croats Not Balkars Not Mayars at Tacitus times

Sesides if you like the Sirris God people then you must Messopotamian Gods and Persian culture
the Siropaiakes
Sirris is after a god name and are connected with Darnakes a tribal name which speak a strange dialect of Greek and have some Persian vocabulary,
in fact their name means Dari naka (darius is here), until 1900 they were considered Thracian especially by Bulgarians who massacre them
Later linguistics give a Iranian vocabulary and a strange sound Archaic Greek

so live Sirris outside and don't make theories,
Sirris is an middle east god that was worshiped due to Skudra
in fact there many written about a godess imported from Caria with name Sirris and became Serres


BESIDES THERE ANOTHER SIRIS IN MAGNA GRECIA
IS THAT SLAVIC ALSO??
AND EVEN IN PONTIC GREEKS WE FOUND THE

SIRILACH drunken
Sirachio the Boza beer



it is connected with the agriculture of Graminae Eleusine coracana

in Archaic name was Σοργος
modern is κεχρι
Serres means Eleusine coracana God's Fair
later connected with the Demetra

it is the basically item for a boza kind of beer

tthe god that inspired the agriculture of Sorgos was a carrian or a persian Sirris

So take hands off
Enough with slavonization of ancient empires and vandalism of Balkans

except if Slavian = Persian Iranian????

Taranis
26-06-11, 17:04
When we had thread about Etruscans, I have tried reading his text that relates Etruscan language to Hungarian, and it didnot make much sense...so personally, I think his theories are on very shaky grounds... but on other hand linguistic continuity makes sense, as we see something similar in genetics...

Well, a relationship between Etruscan and Hungarian really makes no sense.
Hungarian is obviously an Uralic language, although one considerable influenced by Turkic languages. This is because, unlike the Saamo-Finnic peoples, the ancient Magyars lived further to the south and east (southern Urals region). Also, within Uralic, Hungarian and Finnic are not particularly close. Either lived far away from the Etruscans.

The claim of a relationship between Hungarian and Etruscan only makes sort of "sense" if you (like the guy) have the ad-hoc idea of impossible linguistic continuity.


branch of Helveti might have moved there even earlier...
tribes tend to spread their influence...
I think it is a possibility...
in my opinion place name Galicia must be in some way related to Celtic people

Why "must there" be a relation?

As I stated before, the name was originally "Halychia", and was only later was rendered into "Galicia". There's nothing particularly Celtic about "Halycia". There is in fact no reasonable Celtic etymology for that word.


nope, but Russian primary chronicle records inner version of history preserved through tradition ... that tradition didnot come out of thin air..there was basis for it in some people who actually did migrate from around Danube towards north... how much did they contributed to genetics and linguistic of slavic is questionable...

You know that people in the medieval ages tended to cook up all kind of crazy half-baked shit that is totally unrelated with historic events. For example, the people of Trier claimed that the city was founded by one Trebata who was the son of Ninus of Assyria around 2000 BC. Does that mean the story is real and 100% accurate?!

There were no Slavic people at the Danube in the 1st/2nd century AD, and they certainly didn't travel north.


reference please...
because I don't think it was recorded...
and if there was such an event and if it was recorded, it could not be in Byzantine sources, but in late Roman empire sources...

Take John of Ephesus (6th century AD), for instance:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/ephesus_3_book3.htm


[III.25.] The merciful Tiberius during the whole time he was Caesar in Justin's lifetime, because of the king himself having fallen a prey to various maladies, was entirely occupied with the wars which surrounded him on all sides: for, besides the struggle with the Persians, he was constantly threatened in every direction by those other barbarian tribes which had risen up against the powerful empire of the Romans: and after the death of Justin, they pressed upon him with still greater violence, especially the accursed tribes of the Slavonians, and those who, from their long hair, are called Avars. For after he became sole ruler, they gave him neither rest nor breathing-time, but constantly wars and rumours of war multiplied around him: so that many, both of the chiefs and the commonalty, used to express their sorrow for him, and say, 'Verily the kingdom has fallen to his lot in a time of trial and in evil days; for day and night he is anxious, and full of care how best he can gather troops from every quarter, and send them to maintain these incessant wars.'

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/pearse/morefathers/files/ephesus_6_book5.htm


[V.19.] One relative, however, needs more particular mention, namely, Domitian, metropolitan of Melitene. Already Maurice, when sent by Tiberius to the East with the title of count, had shewn his devotion to the interests of his family by making him bishop of Melitene in Cappadocia: and when, after spending a period of two years more or less in the East, he had returned to the capital, and been made king, immediately Domitian hastened to him, and became his counsellor and most intimate adviser, and the person |357 who thought for him, and encouraged him in all the severe and painful difficulties with which he had to contend in the wars which pressed upon him on all sides, with the heathen and Magian people of the Persians, and the barbarous and savage tribes who came from the ends of the world, and are called Avars, and also with the Slavonians. And in all these difficulties the bishop of Melitene was the king's comforter and counsellor, although he was still but a young man. He was however thoroughly imbued with the opinions of the council of Chalcedon and of Leo. The great and important matters then, which pressed upon the empire on all sides, he laid before the king, together with his advice; and he let him settle them as he chose, and so he continues to do to this day .


he did... I saw it quoted on zillion places...

You know that the text by the Bavarian geography is really just a short database of ethnic groups and number of towns associated with said group? All he says about the Zeriuani is this:

"Zeriuani, quod tantum est regnum, ut ex eo cuncte genetes Sclauorum exorte sint et originem, sicut affirmant, ducant."

Nowhere does it state that this was a huge Slavic kingdom located in Bohemia. You just cooked that up.


that is big assumption...

It's a "big assumption" for you because you apparently don't want to go there because you just do not like it. There is, as a matter of fact, however, no onomastic evidence of Slavic peoples inside the borders of the Roman empire in the 1st/2nd century AD. The only candidate names for Slavic names are located in European Sarmatia, in an area that roughly corresponds with modern-day Belarus and northern Ukraine.


did they write something about languages of people in Poland, Ukraine, Hungary, Slovakia?

Germanic, for the greater part. There's plenty of Germanic tribes attested by those authors in what today is Slovakia (Quadi, Buri) and Western Poland (Burgundians, Rugians, etc.) Also Iranic tribes (Iazyges) and also Dacians. Also, northeastern Poland (east of the Vistula) was inhabited by Baltic peoples (Galindians, Sudovians).
Southern Ukraine was inhabited mostly by Iranic tribes (such as the Rhoxolani), but also Dacians (in the west).

All of these ethnic groups are recorded by Ptolemy.

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 17:15
why Slavic language with its today from existed in Balkans?

not Serbs Not Croats Not Balkars Not Mayars at Tacitus times

Sesides if you like the Sirris God people then you must Messopotamian Gods and Persian culture
the Siropaiakes
Sirris is after a god name and are connected with Darnakes a tribal name which speak a strange dialect of Greek and have some Persian vocabulary,
in fact their name means Dari naka (darius is here), until 1900 they were considered Thracian especially by Bulgarians who massacre them
Later linguistics give a Iranian vocabulary and a strange sound Archaic Greek

so live Sirris outside and don't make theories,
Sirris is an middle east god that was worshiped due to Skudra
in fact there many written about a godess imported from Caria with name Sirris and became Serres


BESIDES THERE ANOTHER SIRIS IN MAGNA GRECIA
AND EVEN IN PONTIC GREEKS WE FOUND THE
SIRENITSA dance
SIRA war dance
SIRLACH drunken
Siracho the Boza beer

Modern Greek is Sura means drunken and is Iranian or Carian word

it is connected with the agriculture of Graminae Eleusine coracana

in Archaic name was Σοργος
modern is κεχρι

it is the basically item for a boza kind of beer

tthe god that inspired the agriculture of Sorgos was a carrian or a persian Sirris

So take hands off
Enough with slavonization of ancient empires and vandalism of Balkans
hm, "Darius is here"

you are talking about people from "Darnakohoria"
let me see "horia" = gora (mountain)
is it hilly area?

it does sound similar to "čarnako horia" = "černa gora" = Montenegro = black mountain = north mountain...which indicates it was settled from south... thus after passing from Asia....

indeed it can be about Persian settlement...
don't forget theories that Serbs and Croats are tribes originally settled in Europe by Persians during their conquests... do not know how that changes model I present here...

iapetoc
26-06-11, 17:35
hm, "Darius is here"

you are talking about people from "Darnakohoria"
let me see "horia" = gora (mountain)
is it hilly area?

it does sound similar to "čarnako horia" = "černa gora" = Montenegro = black mountain = north mountain...which indicates it was settled from south... thus after passing from Asia....

indeed it can be about Persian settlement...
don't forget theories that Serbs and Croats are tribes originally settled in Europe by Persians during their conquests... do not know how that changes model I present here...

Well I don't know your system
But indeed is a case of remark that the story lived even today,
in fact they are the only left that call the serbs Trovoli
the modern linguistic show a Iranian Persian
and in fact some old can show you the boarders

I know that Dari naka means Darius is Here Horia means Villages χωριον

the case of Croats or Serbs from Persian migration I don't Know But I know that Thracians had Connections many
and personal guardians in Darius court
the Skudra case,

Yes it is a Hilly area, it the area of Mardonius camp

the case is know the sintikes and odomantikes

yes but does not fit I believe,
for example why red sea the today red and not the persian gulf or the meditterean
and why black sea the Pontus and not the Caspian?

and based by whom? by slavic or by persians?

so you know the Darnakochoria?


the ak and Kara etch is a Turkish system
Ak koyonlu kara koyonlu

it was also used by the avars I know
so we go go to a case of avars = slavic? or avars = germanic or avars = persians?

the case of Thracians = Persian has a point of truth but mostly has an imported vocabulary

now if your system is correct then Bessarabia means? west sarabia or west arabia
and why bessarabia and not bellasarabia or why not not Besrusia but bellarusia

one is german sound one is Slavic,

I wonder the Iranian words how will be
the turkish are known ak kara etc
and ogurs or the avars

but still makes wonder why the Brygians name Axain the black sea? since it was east of them and not North

and most of all why the turkmen call Ak koyonlu the ones who were south and east


also the

Cetatea Albă or Album Castrum or Asperon Akkerman Walachisch Weißenburgwhy all use the same colour but only fits to who? turks? (pecheneg)

but romans were before or after pechenegs?
!!!!
that is why I believe that this system is more complex

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 18:05
Well I don't know your system
But indeed is a case of remark that the story lived even today,
in fact they are the only left that call the serbs Trovoli
the modern linguistic show a Iranian Persian
and in fact some old can show you the boarders

I know that Dari naka means Darius is Here Horia means Villages χωριον

the case of Croats or Serbs from Persian migration I don't Know But I know that Thracians had Connections many
and personal guardians in Darius court
the Skudra case,

Yes it is a Hilly area, it the area of Mardonius camp

the case is know the sintikes and odomantikes

yes but does not fit I believe,
for example why red sea the today red and not the persian gulf or the meditterean
and why black sea the Pontus and not the Caspian?

and based by whom? by slavic or by persians?

so you know the Darnakochoria?
...
the ak and Kara etch is a Turkish system



1) I think Red and Black sea are names given by Persians... for them those were south sea and north sea...
Turks have color system as well...that is why I related Croats to west Hurians or ak-Hur = Oghur people
color system was widely used...

name Bessarabia has nothing to do with the color system, it is name based on Basarab dynasty that ruled area...


The name is of Cuman or Pecheneg[1] origin and most likely meant "father ruler". Basar was the present participle of the verb "to rule", derivatives attested in both old and modern Kypchak languages. The Romanian historian Nicolae Iorga believed the second part of the name, -aba ("father"), to be an honorary title, as recognizable in many Cuman names, such as Terteroba, Arslanapa, and Ursoba.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basarab_dynasty


but still makes wonder why the Brygians name Axain the black sea? since it was east of them and not North

Brygians passed to Asia minor from Thrace... it was originally east of them, but when they passed to Asia minor it was north of them... anyway, maybe they didnot themselves use color system and have just translated term already used by other people....


2) Slavic is modern language family...but it is much closer to indo-iranian languages than other european branches of IE... if Thracians are ancestors of Slavs that explains the closer relation... though same holds for Scythians as well...
btw. I could find matches for most of the Thracian words that you gave....
but I cannot easily find matches for reconstructed Thracian words from wikipedia...

can you compile list of Thracian words and why you classify them as Thracian?



3) is Darnakohoria exonym or self identification?

"Darnakohoria" could be "Darius(ov) nakot gora" (mountain "Darius's offspring")
"nakot" is offspring but used for animals, it is offense when applied to people




4) let me try to make some links...

from wikipedia I can see that Baal is deity, sometimes used for God in general...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%CA%BFal

Tribali would be people with three-in-one god
Triglav in Slavic pantheon means 3-heads, it is about god with 3 heads, but in fact about 3 gods in one...


Triglav is depicted as representation of three major Slavic gods that vary from one Slavic tribe to others that serve as the representatives of the above mentioned realms. An early variation included Svarog, Perun, and Dajbog. Later, Dajbog was replaced by Svetovid or Veles. Triglav is usually described as a fusion of these gods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_deities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triglav_(mythology)

so Darnakohoria would feel as today Serbs cannot be called Serbs as their religion has changed e.g. from Sirris to worshiping Slavic 3-headed god, hence they can be Triballi (3-headed god worshipers) but not Sirris...

there was similar thing during Ottoman empire...Serbs started using name Turks for those who converted to islam even though they were same in genetics, culture and language... that is how Bosniaks came to existance - during Turkish times they were pushed out from Serb ethnic corpus and slowly developed own identity that became offical first as as Muslims with big "M" during Tito and as Bosniaks few years ago...

one looney historian has similar theory for Venetians, because Venetians were in Serbia never called Venetians but instead with name derived from "milk" - Mlečani... so he claims that is because they have changed identity in order to live better and cannot be related to Veneti anymore, neither in terms of religion nor in terms of language, culture...



5) what you know about Sirris?
I could find only this:


The Mesopotamian goddess Siris was the patron of beer who is conceived of as a demon, which is not necessarily evil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siris_(goddess)

curiously, there is Croat counterpart in Mesopotamia pantheon, but among evil deities..

In Sumerian mythology, Kur was primarily a mountain or mountains, and usually referred to the Zagros mountains to the east of Sumer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kur

in Slavic mountain = gora, which is cognjate with "kur"
Zagreb is capital of Croats, which sounds a lot like Zagros

in my model,
Kur people would be Hurians, and distant ancestors of Croats
Sirris people would be Serians and distant ancestors of Serbs

finally, they are both Sumerians, which may be origin of term Cimmerians

Taranis
26-06-11, 19:27
Sumerians and Croats?! That's just insane. Sorry, but I'm leaving those fairy-tales to you.

iapetoc
26-06-11, 19:33
1) I think Red and Black sea are names given by Persians... for them those were south sea and north sea...
Slavic is modern language family...but it is much closer to indo-iranian languages than other european branches of IE... Turks have color system as well...that is why I related Croats to west Hurians or ak-Hur = Oghur people
color system was widely used...

2) if Thracians are ancestors of Slavs that explains the closer relation... though same holds for Scythians as well...
btw. I could find matches for most of the Thracian words that you gave....
but I cannot easily find matches for reconstructed Thracian words from wikipedia...

can you compile list of Thracian words and why you classify them as Thracian?

3) is Darnakohoria exonym or self identification?

"Darnakohoria" could be "Darius(ov) nakot gora" (mountain "Darius's offspring")
"nakot" is offspring but used for animals, it is offense when applied to people

4) let me try to make some links...

from wikipedia I can see that Baal is deity, sometimes used for God in general...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ba%CA%BFal

Tribali would be people with three-in-one god
Triglav in Slavic pantheon means 3-heads, it is about god with 3 heads, but in fact about 3 gods in one...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_deities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triglav_(mythology)

so Darnakohoria would feel as today Serbs cannot be called Serbs as their religion has changed e.g. from Sirris to worshiping Slavic 3-headed god, hence they can be Triballi (3-headed god worshipers) but not Sirris...

there was similar thing during Ottoman empire...Serbs started using name Turks for those who converted to islam even though they were same in genetics, culture and language... that is how Bosniaks came to existance - during Turkish times they were pushed out from Serb ethnic corpus and slowly developed own identity that became offical first as as Muslims with big "M" during Tito and as Bosniaks few years ago...

one looney historian has similar theory for Venetians, because Venetians were in Serbia never called Venetians but instead with name derived from "milk" - Mlečani... so he claims that is because they have changed identity in order to live better and cannot be related to Veneti anymore, neither in terms of religion nor in terms of language, culture...


5) who is Sirris? is name in any way related to Osiris in Egypt?


1) south of Persians is the Gulf Persian Gulf
and north is Caspean sea

2) that is because in order to explain the bulgarian in an area that not Slavic enter they pushe slavonization and reconstruction there,
In fact thracian is a language between slavic Greek and Persian the case of a towards celtic I am not to claim but I live it open

in fact many thracian that are written are giving even Armenian origin,
the Greeks are making an alone effort to write down cause there is enough differences, cause many words that believe as slavic are given as thracian by many,
one reliable only write down is the Samothrakis Σαμοθρακης who gives only word and meaning no further,
personally I know that there was a pre or a para slavic language but not connected with the today Cyrillic or modern south slavic as today forms, and not that much
for example word is romphaia (sword) it is connected with whom? offcourse in new testament John use it after Brygian or whatever.
but someone could easy claim whatever
Among today thracians are many different words ,

and since you want to know about Thracian
Tios Bakchos an original thracian God, can you connect him with today slavic?

3) darnakas is inner name
Darnakochoria is area

4) the Greek hekate
well since you know about thracian then you must known about thracian trinity it is well mentioned in Orpheus Hymns

tthat 3 is Moirai
is Graiai
is Hekate
is the thracian 1) Bakchos Greek Ιακχος +2) Orpheus Dionyssus Phannis +3) zagreus Sabazios !!!!!!! troika

5) nope it is Siris 2 greek cities had that name,
it is a female goddes from mesopotami that conncted with agriculture of a seed and beer produaction

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 20:03
1) south of Persians is the Gulf Persian Gulf
and north is Caspean sea
yes, in narrow sense of the word....
but Persian state was extending to whole Asia minor and even in Thrace for a while....

besides with Persians, I meant Iranian people in general... they do speak same language...
and Caspian sea is just a lake...



2) that is because in order to explain the bulgarian in an area that not Slavic enter they pushe slavonization and reconstruction there,
In fact thracian is a language between slavic Greek and Persian the case of a towards celtic I am not to claim but I live it open

yes it is hard to map...I do not think Thracians were Celtic... Celts spread via Danube river system...Thracians were east of them...

i
n fact many thracian that are written are giving even Armenian origin,
the Greeks are making an alone effort to write down cause there is enough differences, cause many words that believe as slavic are given as thracian by many,
one reliable only write down is the Samothrakis Σαμοθρακης who gives only word and meaning no further,


personally I know that there was a pre or a para slavic language but not connected with the today Cyrillic or modern south slavic as today forms, and not that much
for example word is romphaia (sword) it is connected with whom? offcourse in new testament John use it after Brygian or whatever.
but someone could easy claim whatever
Among today thracians are many different words ,
no, can't find nothing like "romphaia" for sword...


and since you want to know about Thracian
Tios Bakchos an original thracian God, can you connect him with today slavic?

Tios is Greek for God, Bog is slavic

Bog is very likely cognjate with Bakchos...


3) darnakas is inner name
Darnakochoria is area
ok


4) the Greek hekate
well since you know about thracian then you must known about thracian trinity it is well mentioned in Orpheus Hymns
tthat 3 is Moirai

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirae

Moirae could be origin for Morava river names in Serbia and Czech republic...
Sabazios is related to Sava river
and Zeus to Danube


is Graiai
is Hekate
is the thracian 1) Bakchos Greek Ιακχος +2) Orpheus Dionyssus Phannis +3) zagreus Sabazios !!!!!!! troika


based just on similarity of sounds

1) Perun - Perkunas - Phannis - Taranis- Tarhun-Taru-Thor (Slavic - Baltic- Greek - Celtic-Hittite-Hatti-Germanic)

2) Dajbog / Dažbog - Tios Bakchos

3) Svarog - zagreus

now, let's play with the meanings

perhaps different tribes had own primary gods

Sabazios or Serbian god would be Zagreus thus Svarog
(interestingly capital of Croats is Zagreb and mountain where Kur deity of Mesopotamia is Zagreus)



Svarog is there identified with Hephaestus, the god of the blacksmith in ancient Greek religion, and as the father of Dažbog, a Slavic solar deity. On the basis of this text, some researchers conclude that Svarog is the Slavic god of celestial fire and of blacksmithing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Svarog


Hephaestus ( /hɪˈfiːstəs/, /həˈfɛstəs/ or /hɨˈfɛstəs/; 8 spellings; Ancient Greek Ἥφαιστος Hēphaistos) was a Greek god whose Roman equivalent was Vulcan. He is the son of Zeus and Hera, the King and Queen of the Gods or else (according to some accounts) of Hera alone. He was the god of technology, blacksmiths, craftsmen, artisans, sculptors, metals, metallurgy, fire and volcanoes.
....

On the island of Lemnos, his consort was the sea nymph Cabeiro, by whom he was the father of two metalworking gods named the Cabeiri. In Sicily, his consort was the nymph Aetna, and his sons two gods of Sicilian geysers called Palici.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hephaestus

a very wild guess
Cabeiri - Srbi - Serbs
Palici - Poljaci - Poles

Hephaestus also leads us to Vulkan, Balkan, Volga and Bulgars....

btw. curiously also mythical queen of Sheba was called Makeda on south of her country and Balkis on east among Arabs...which map to Serbs-Macedonians-Bulgars....

could queen of Sheba be linked to Sirris goddess? and somehow to moon because
srp (slavic) = crescent
sart (mongolian) = moon

Sart self-designations maps perfectly to Serians of Asia (ethnic group Dongxiang from northwest China that maps to Serica proper, and Tajik/Uzbek Sart people who map to upper part of arc of Serians from India to China, while lower part of arc are Pashtun Sarbans)

see http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26549-Celtic-Serbian-parallels&p=373750&viewfull=1#post373750


hm, let's see whether there is link between moon and Serians/Zeruiani

could Zeruiani mean Zoryani - people of Zorya (Zorya/Zora = dawn)


In Slavic mythology the Zorya (alternately, Zarya, Zory, Zore = "dawn"; Zvezda, Zwezda, Danica = "star") are the three (sometimes two) guardian goddesses, known as the Auroras. They guard and watch over the doomsday hound, Simargl, who is chained to the star Polaris in the constellation Ursa Minor, the "little bear". If the chain ever breaks, the hound will devour the constellation and the universe will end. The Zorya represent the Morning Star, Evening Star, and Midnight Star, respectively,[1] although the Midnight Star is sometimes omitted. As a trio, they are sometimes associated with the Triple Goddess mythic archetype, representing the maiden, mother and crone.
The Zorya serve the sun god Dažbog, who in some myths is described as their father. Zorya Utrennyaya, the Morning Star, opens the gates to his palace every morning for the sun-chariot's departure. At dusk, Zorya Vechernyaya—the Evening Star—closes the palace gates once more after his return. Zorya Polunochnaya, the Midnight Star, holds the dying sun in her arms until he is restored to life the following morning. The three goddesses are also associated with marriage, protection, and exorcisms.
The home of the Zorya was sometimes said to be on Bouyan (or Buyan), an oceanic island paradise where the Sun dwelt along with his attendants, the North, West and East winds.[2]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zorya

hm, home at Bouyan
homeland of Serbs Boika

in home of Zorya are: Sun and North, West and East winds



In Greek mythology, the Anemoi (in Greek, Ἄνεμοι — "winds") were wind gods who were each ascribed a cardinal direction, from which their respective winds came, and were each associated with various seasons and weather conditions. They were sometimes represented as mere gusts of wind, at other times were personified as winged men, and at still other times were depicted as horses kept in the stables of the storm god Aeolus, who provided Odysseus with the Anemoi in the Odyssey. Astraeus, the astrological deity sometimes associated with Aeolus, and Eos, the goddess of the dawn, were the parents of the Anemoi, according to the Greek poet Hesiod.
Of the four chief Anemoi, Boreas was the north wind and bringer of cold winter air, Notus was the south wind and bringer of the storms of late summer and autumn, and Zephyrus was the west wind and bringer of light spring and early summer breezes; Eurus, the east wind, was not associated with any of the three Greek seasons, and is the only one of these four Anemoi not mentioned in Hesiod's Theogony or in the Orphic Hymns. Additionally, four lesser Anemoi were sometimes referenced, representing the northeast, southeast, northwest, and southwest winds.
The deities equivalent to the Anemoi in Roman mythology were the Venti (in Latin, "winds"). These gods had different names, but were otherwise very similar to their Greek counterparts, borrowing their attributes and being frequently conflated with them.

Zephyrus, or just Zephyr (Greek: Ζέφυρος, Zéphuros, "the west wind"), in Latin Favonius, is the Greek god of the west wind. The gentlest of the winds, Zephyrus is known as the fructifying wind, the messenger of spring. It was thought that Zephyrus lived in a cave in Thrace.
Zephyrus was reported as having several wives in different stories. He was said to be the husband of his sister Iris, the goddess of the rainbow. He abducted another of his sisters, the goddess Chloris, and gave her the domain of flowers. With Chloris, he fathered Carpus ("fruit").

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi


Zoraya representative of Zeruiani/Serians maps to Eos godess of dawn - mother of winds...
winds are:
east - Eurus (maps to Russians)
north - Borea (maps to Prussia/Borussia)
west - Zephyrus (maps to Serbs)
and his son Carpus (maps to Croats)
winds are in latin known as Venti (maps to Veneti)

as I explained earlier in this thread, Borea is still in Thrace, Hyperboreans are north of Borea thus Dacians... Hyperboreans are linked to Leto (clearly reflected in tribal names Lithuanians and Latvians (in Serbia Latvia is called Letonija))

now about moon...




The Morning Star is Zorya Utrennyaya (from Russian utro, meaning "morning"; also known as Zvezda Danica, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zwezda Dnieca, Zvezda Zornitsa, Gwiazda Poranna, Rannia Zoria, Zornica, Zornička), who opens the gates of Dažbog's palace each morning so that the Sun may begin his journey.[3] She is depicted as a warrior goddess, fully-armed and courageous, and was invoked to protect against death in battle with the prayer "Defend me, O maiden, with your veil from the enemy, from the arquebus and arrow..."[citation needed] She is a patroness of horses, protection, exorcism, and the planet Venus, and Slavs would pray to her each morning as the sun rose.[4] In some tales, she sits under the World Tree on the fiery-stone Alatuir, from which run the four rivers of the Otherworld, and under her seat flows the river of healing.
Conflicting accounts exist of her marital situation. In some myths, she is described as the wife of Perun and would accompany her husband into battle. In this role she was known to protect those warriors she favoured against death by letting down her veil. In other accounts, both she and Zorya Vechernyaya were the wives of the male Myesyats, the moon god, and by him bore all of the stars.[3] However, some have all three Zorya as virgin goddesses, while describing Myesyats as an unrelated female moon goddess.
Zorya Utrennyaya is sometimes associated with the maiden in the Triple Goddess archetype.

The Evening Star is Zorya Vechernyaya[1] (from Russian vecher, meaning "evening"; also known as Vecernja Zvezda, Zvezda Vechernaya, Zwezda Wieczoniaia, Zwezda Wieczernica, Zvezda Vechernitsa, Gwiazda Wieczorna, Vechirnia Zoria, Večernjača, Večernica), who closes the palace gates at dusk, after sunset and Dažbog's return. She was associated with the planet Venus or Mercury. Some myths described both her and her sister Zorya Utrennyaya as the wives of the moon god Myesyats and the mothers of the stars, but other accounts cast all three Zorya as virgin goddesses.[3] A patroness of exorcism and protection, she is sometimes associated with the mother in the Triple Goddess archetype.[4]

The Midnight Star is Zorya Polunochnaya (from Russian polnoch, meaning "midnight"; also known as Zwezda Połnoca, Gwiazda Polnoca, Polunocnica, Polunochnitsa; in the Ukrainian language Midnight Star literally means the Pole star). It is in Zorya Polunochnaya's arms that the Sun returns to die each night, to be rejuvenated the following morning. She is a patroness of magic, death and rebirth.[4] She is sometimes associated with the crone in the Triple Goddess archetype.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zorya



Hecate or Hekate (ancient Greek Ἑκάτη, Hekátē, pronounced UK: /ˈhekəti/, US: /ˈhekət̬i/, in Shakespeare English pronunciation: /ˈhekət/[1]) is a chthonic Greco-Roman goddess associated with magic, witchcraft, necromancy, and crossroads.[2] She is attested in poetry as early as Hesiod's Theogony. An inscription from late archaic Miletus naming her as a protector of entrances is also testimony to her presence in archaic Greek religion.[3]
Regarding the nature of her cult, it has been remarked, "she is more at home on the fringes than in the center of Greek polytheism. Intrinsically ambivalent and polymorphous, she straddles conventional boundaries and eludes definition."[4] She has been associated with childbirth, nurturing the young, gates and walls, doorways, crossroads, magic, lunar lore, torches and dogs.

The earliest Greek depictions of Hecate are single faced, not triplicate. Lewis Richard Farnell states:
The evidence of the monuments as to the character and significance of Hecate is almost as full as that of the literature. But it is only in the later period that they come to express her manifold and mystic nature. Before the fifth century there is little doubt that she was usually represented as of single form like any other divinity, and it was thus that the Boeotian poet imagined her, as nothing in his verses contains any allusion to a triple formed goddess.[17]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hecate




The Triple Goddess is the subject of much of the writing of Robert Graves, and has been adopted by some neopagans as one of their primary deities. The term triple goddess is sometimes used outside of Neopaganism to refer to historical goddess triads and single goddesses of three forms or aspects. In common Neopagan usage the three female figures are frequently described as the Maiden, the Mother, and the Crone, each of which symbolises both a separate stage in the female life cycle and a phase of the moon, and often rules one of the realms of earth, underworld, and the heavens. These may or may not be perceived as aspects of a greater single divinity. The feminine part of Wicca's duotheistic theological system is sometimes portrayed as a Triple Goddess, her masculine counterpart being the Horned God.

many Wiccans and other neopagans worship the "Triple Goddess" of maiden, mother, and crone, a practice going back to mid-twentieth-century England. In their view, sexuality, pregnancy, breastfeeding — and other female reproductive processes — are ways that women may embody the Goddess, making the physical body sacred.[40]
The Maiden represents enchantment, inception, expansion, the promise of new beginnings, birth, youth and youthful enthusiasm, represented by the waxing moon.
The Mother represents ripeness, fertility, sexuality, fulfillment, stability, power and life represented by the full moon.
The Crone represents wisdom, repose, death, and endings represented by the waning moon.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_Goddess_(Neopaganism)

triple-goddess symbol in Vicca

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/Triple-Goddess-Waxing-Full-Waning-Symbol.svg/220px-Triple-Goddess-Waxing-Full-Waning-Symbol.svg.png

Sherden sea peoples helmet

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples14.jpg

Place named after Sherden in Egypt is Serbonian bog


5) nope it is Siris 2 greek cities had that name,
it is a female goddes from mesopotami that conncted with agriculture of a seed and beer produaction
I edited later... take a look some interesting links...

zanipolo
27-06-11, 09:58
@ how yes and no

careful on your meanings

Venti = 20 in Italian

Ventus = wind in Latin

Venetus = colour blue/green in Latin, also word used for meaning Veneti .............people from the sea

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/venetus

iapetoc
28-06-11, 00:15
well after the lecture of How yes no
about the arabian connection of Sheba queen and Serbs
lets return to Dacian language,

I belive an inderesting case the Castrum Albesti in Bessarabia

bessarabia from?
1) west arabia
2) weiss arabia
3) Bella arabia
4) ???????

lets see the castle names
1) Castrum Albesti (unknown origin Albesti word or local Dacian-Thracian?)
2 Castrum Album (ROman-Latin)
3) Білгород-Дністровський Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi (ucraine)
4) οφιουσα Greek
5) Μαυροκαστρο Greek black castle
6) Ασπερον Asperon (Byzantine name, compare aspr with turkish silver coins aspra)
7) Turla (Tatars)
8) Asprokastron given by Genouates
9) Cetatea Alba (Romanian)
10) Akkerman (turkish)
11) Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi (ucraine)
12) Weißenburg (local walachian German)

I still wonder about the dacian Language

Weissburg Bessarabia?
Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi
Cetatea Alba (cet exist also in Serbian as Cetnik, also in Turkic, I don't know about wallachian german)
so cet could be a Pecheneg word or a slavic word, I don't know if also Germanic word, but we find it north of Dacia, as also the end -esti which can be found even south to greece except classical Bucur-esti
Cet could alternate of getae.

the case of walachian weissburg show a german speaking population there,
which for me ancients called Getae
although some try to avoid and say Goths from Gothland sweden
it is interesting to check the Visigoths
1 First area of visigoths is BALKAN not sweden
2 Strabo clearly name a tribe north of Aimos Hemus as Βησσιοι Bessi (weiss or west)
3 compare the ostrogoths with OSTRIA the Getae from Ostria ->Ostrogoths -Austria

I believe the story of Getica is wrong and origin of Getae was Dacia,
by their move west due to the come of slavic and pechenegs
in fact I believe that Dacian is not Illyrian not Slavic
Dacian moved to Germanic west and Perso-thracian Skudra joined Perso-Scythian Skudet and create Slavic language
then later we have the varangians who trade the amber.
compare the Austria Ostria with
Ostroh ukraine Острог Russian Острог, Ostrog, Poland Ostróg

Gods of Getae Gebeleizis any connection with another known language
plz share if you find any

Claudius Claudianus, De Bello Gothico
names visigoths just Getae

so the possibility of Dacian be a a para or a pre or a proto or whatever thraco-germanic language is open

well after that dagne i am waiting to hear your conclusion about -au and -av
and about Dacian language
are you still sure that is a clear pure Slavic language?

Cetetea = Getaetea


at least the nomitive in plural in Albanian language is -et
compare it with with Grecothracian -er

scythian alternative names

Skudet name the Persian the scythian of North
Skudra name the Persian the Thracian

Dagne
28-06-11, 15:13
and about Dacian language
are you still sure that is a clear pure Slavic language?



Dacian is surely not a slavic language. Slavic languages are comparatively very close to each other, so their homeland must have been very compact. But they appeared in Europe in 5th-6th centuries with the big Westward movement of peoples.

We can say that Dacian is a Satem language. Comparing reconstructed Dacian words with Lithuanian I found more similarities than with slavic, german or albanian languages. According to some theories Dacian is a Sountern Eastern Baltic language.

A pity we didn't have anyone to make a thorought comparison of Dacian words with Albanian and Old German ...

regarding au and av - it looks that this is the same suffix in Germanic and Slavic. Neither au or av is in Dacian endings, to we may conclude that Dacian is not either Germanic or Slavic.

Dagne
28-06-11, 15:20
Iapetoc suggested looking at Bessarabia at Akkerman Castle (it was founded by Greeks as Tyras, Funny thing Tyrai (tiras) - means desolated location in Dacian and Lithuanian).

It's history is very rich and Dacians had this town under their rule. I cannot say anything else apart that Greek colonies are all over the region, especially in the present Ukrainian Crimea.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/15/Ancient_Greek_Colonies_of_N_Black_Sea.png

iapetoc
29-06-11, 00:34
comparing the latters is ΤΥΡΑΣ -> tiras or turas

that city has many theories behind,

1) connection with Tyros in Levantine, (pelasgian)
2) connection with Turcis (pelasgian castle) a word also used for Etruscans if correct (Enturcis)
3) connection with Thor scandinavian God
4) connection with Thurringia

All the above are hypothesis,
personally for me the Turcis is most possible

the Greek name for river was Δαναστηρ Danaster , but many time is also named Turas

Danaster is almost simmilar with Dniester

Dagne
29-06-11, 07:46
Wiki says Tyras river derives from Scynthian tūra, meaning "rapid."
Tyras would also mean pure

iapetoc
29-06-11, 09:11
well the Homerick word for water running very fast above Reynolds number is Τυρβη Turve-Turvi, in English is rabble,

it is when water is running with Vortex and not straight flux.

hmmmmm a turbo river.

how yes no 2
29-06-11, 21:41
well the Homerick word for water running very fast above Reynolds number is Τυρβη Turve-Turvi, in English is rabble,

it is when water is running with Vortex and not straight flux.

hmmmmm a turbo river.

PIE word that exist in probably all european languages, except perhaps in Greek... intriguing idea that a word which Homer used exists in all european languages except in Greek...

"turbulencija" in serbo-croat...
"turbulentie" in dutch
"turbulence" in english
"turbolenza" in italian
....

iapetoc
29-06-11, 22:45
PIE word that exist in probably all european languages, except perhaps in Greek... intriguing idea that a word which Homer used exists in all european languages except in Greek...

"turbulencija" in serbo-croat...
"turbulentie" in dutch
"turbulence" in english
"turbolenza" in italian
....


well since you know Greek better than me, that means that word Τυρβος Of Homer, archaic form Τυρβη is not a greek word, But Homer learn t from the Sumerian-Serbs

I wonder why alternate word is θορυβος !!!!!

how yes no 2
30-06-11, 01:43
well since you know Greek better than me, that means that word Τυρβος Of Homer, archaic form Τυρβη is not a greek word, But Homer learn t from the Sumerian-Serbs

I wonder why alternate word is θορυβος !!!!!

your statement suggested that the word doesnot exist in Greek.....
you were amazed with idea of turbo river...


But Homer learn t from the Sumerian-Serbs

actually, according to linguist Roberto Salinas Price, Homer's texts were originally not in Greek, but in a language that based on his analysis can only be proto-Slavic...

hm, did you ever consider a possibility that Homer is not a name, but a nationality....
I am sure you can figure it out :cool2:

iapetoc
30-06-11, 07:06
your statement suggested that the word doesnot exist in Greek.....
you were amazed with idea of turbo river...


actually, according to linguist Roberto Salinas Price, Homer's texts were originally not in Greek, but in a language that based on his analysis can only be proto-Slavic...

hm, did you ever consider a possibility that Homer is not a name, but a nationality....
I am sure you can figure it out :cool2:


maybe you did not read my post #158, look again what I write,

the rest is a provoke,

Maybe Dusan was Makedonian

iapetoc
01-07-11, 07:26
How yes no

you said something about Hyperboreans

do you know who are they?

how yes no 2
01-07-11, 19:51
How yes no

you said something about Hyperboreans

do you know who are they?

well, let me repeat... and add few new thoughts...

perhaps Baltic people...
Lithuanian and Letonian (Latvian) could be tribal names derived from Leto (Leto is linked to Hyperboreans and wolves)...

Borea is still in Thrace....
Hyperborea is north of Borea...
so, it could be Dacians....

Hyperboreans-Dacians-Balts would explain wolf connection, Leto connection, and also why Dagne identifies with Dacian language...

this also fits into my mapping of Venti (anemoi) wind gods to different Slavic people... as Borea is north most Venti (and would map to Borussia, while east wind Eurus would map to Russians, west wind Zephyrus to Serbs, and his son Carpus to Croats)...note that Slavs were called Wends (= winds) (Sorbs in Germany are still called Wends), and that there is Jordanes who marks early Slavs as belonging to populous race of Veneti... Zephyrus is born in caves of Thrace..

Zorya - Slavic deity (meaning dawn),
who might be origin of name Zeruiani (used for early Slavs by bavarian manuscript) and Serians (essentially same tribal name as Zeruiani; taking into account the record of Seneca explains well why Zeruiani are mentioned in Bavarian manuscript as having so big state that all Slavs come from it),
lives in house with sun, north, west and east wind... note that south wind is not mentioned, and south wind of Anemoi (Notus) is the one I cannot map to Slavic tribes...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi

btw. if I am not wrong, sun is related to ancient Macedonians (R1a dominant)...

Zorya might even be about Greeks, that is about hellenic people....
Zorya (=Zeruiani) lives in house (=state) with sun (ancient Macedonians), and winds (= Thracians/Veneti, north = Borussia => Borea, west = Serbia => Zephyrus, east = Russia (Eurus) and there are Croats represented by Carpus - son of Zephyrus)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya

is there any relation of Greece with star, dawn, northern star in particular?
In Serbia, Zorya - morning star is "zvezda Danica" - star Danica, which does sound as alternative name of Greeks - Danajci (in Serbian) - Danaans http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danai
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danaans


Danai could be origin of word Danube as well

Zorya is tripple godess.... that is because of 3 tribes or 3 historic periods in making Greeks/Hellenes...
morning star (= earliest period) - "zvezda Danica" = Danaans = Acheans...

in fact from greek tribes perhaps Zoryans = Dorians in particular...

can you map this text about husband of morning star godess to Danaans and other Greece tribes/periods?


Conflicting accounts exist of her marital situation. In some myths, she is described as the wife of Perun and would accompany her husband into battle. In this role she was known to protect those warriors she favoured against death by letting down her veil. In other accounts, both she and Zorya Vechernyaya were the wives of the male Myesyats, the moon god, and by him bore all of the stars.[3] However, some have all three Zorya as virgin goddesses, while describing Myesyats as an unrelated female moon goddess.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya

Perun is same deity as Teshub of Asia minor... and Thor of Germanic people, Taranis of Celtic, Perkunas of Baltic... it is primary god of Indo-Europeans...

so, according to this interpretation of Slavic mythology, we have Greeks initially in marriage relation (= allies) with Indo-European people... this also makes sense from genetic point of view, as Greek tribes have different key haplogroups compared to other IE people...

later, if we see this interpretation as Slavic version of world, Greeks are mapped to be considered allied with and under domination of Moesians..

Myesyats - moon god could map to Moesia, which is where Scordisci/Serdi and Triballi (used by some Byzantine authors interchangeable with Serbs) lived...

word Myesyatc = mesec(serbian) / Měsíc (Czech) / mesac(russian)/ mjesec (croatian) / miesiąc (polish)
= moon

thus Moesia = land of the moon, crescent...



moon or crescent is in coat of arms of Serbs
word Srb might origin from Slavic "srp" = crescent, sicle
moon in Mongolian = sar
sart people = people under flag of moon

note also Cimmerians settle in Cappadocia, Strabo records both Cappadocian tribes are white Syrians (=Serians), Serb come to Balkan as white Serbs, and in Asia parts of Serians country we have white Sart people (Tajiks, Uzbeks and Chinese nation of non-Chinese origin)

hm, if Serians is related to Danaans/Dorians/Hellenic people, Serbs would be stg. like white (=west) Dorians?
note that Siraces (who are thought to be same as Serboi) are most hellenized of all sarmatians...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siraces


Dorians/Zoryani/Zeruiani could be same as Aryans which when mapped to Greeks fit into my estimate that Aryans must have been J2 people....
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26093-Indo-Aryans

can you map this to Greece


The Morning Star is Zorya Utrennyaya (from Russian utro, meaning "morning"; also known as Zvezda Danica, Zvezda Dennitsa, Zwezda Dnieca, Zvezda Zornitsa, Gwiazda Poranna, Rannia Zoria, Zornica, Zornička), who opens the gates of Dažbog's palace each morning so that the Sun may begin his journey.[3] She is depicted as a warrior goddess, fully-armed and courageous, and was invoked to protect against death in battle with the prayer "Defend me, O maiden, with your veil from the enemy, from the arquebus and arrow..."[citation needed] She is a patroness of horses, protection, exorcism, and the planet Venus, and Slavs would pray to her each morning as the sun rose.[4] In some tales, she sits under the World Tree on the fiery-stone Alatuir, from which run the four rivers of the Otherworld, and under her seat flows the river of healing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya

Zorya that opens the doors of the palace so that sun can start its journey could be about Greek prehistory opening the doors for the conquest of Alexander Macedonian... or about some earlier conquest... in fact mythology suggests that it is repeating pattern of conquest towards east... and Alexander Macedonian biographers speak of earlier conquests of hellenic people (should be checked I read it on net some time ago)


fiery stone must be volcano mountain... or about gold
Alatuir sounds as Altai Mountains, Altai = al (gold) + tau (mountain)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Altai_Mountains

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/3/3d/Altai%2CTienschan-Orte.png

so, Danaans might have arrived to Europe from Altai mountains...
other world would be Siberia, China and Mongolia....
4 rivers...well ...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/4b/Ob_watershed.png/600px-Ob_watershed.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ob_River

Danaans might be about J2 people - note J2 island just south of Altai area - or in fact J2 from Caspian sea to northwest China - exactly in area south from where 4 rivers above start...

https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225923455/home/J2.png

they would be Serians/Zeruiani/Aryans

look how good J2 maps to archeological sites of Indo-Aryans

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0c/IVC_Map.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-Aryan_migration

Zorya (representing J2 proto-Greeks or Serians) in marriage with (=allied to) Perun (east or I2a2 branch of I2 Indo-Europeans)....the marriage of J2 and I2a2 people would in fact be about alliance of proto-Greeks and east branch of Indo-Europeans (Cimmerians)...

so J2 would be original Serians/Aryans = Danaans/Acheans
while I2 would be Cimmerians who were in my opinion original Indo-Europeans....with its branches giving variants of IE (I2b - Germanic, I2a1- Italic and I2a2- slavic)... this also explains otherwise weird Serb saying "speak Serbian so that the whole world understands you", that is in fact about "speak Cimmerian (indo-european) so that the whole world understands you" - of course, the whole world doesnot include the other worlds- e.g. east of Altai mountains

I2a2 would be originally cimmerians, but later white Serians / white syrians (as in cappadocia Cimmerians are later called white-syrians and there is I2a2 island in Kurds of today) / white sarts (Uzbeks/ Tajiks/ northwest China)/ Pasthun Sarbans/ white-Serbs (from whom modern Serbs origin)

parent I2 being Cimmerians (Cimmerians = white-Syrians) and I2b reason why Germans are named after Gomer (Gomer = cimmerian)...

I2a in Greece might not be only Slavic, but also from Danaans...
because I2a maps well to lands of Serians and I2a is large in some parts of Greece that were never settled by Slavs... in the core of Danaans (proto-Greeks - Serians) must have been I2a or so called white Serians...



in fact, if you look at haplogroups I and J2, you can notice that arc of Serians from China to India has outer part - J2 and inner part -I2..
if J2 was originally on location of Aryans, than arc of I2 would be west of it...
thus J2 = Aryans/Serians, and I2 west (=white) Serians...
once I2 and J2 made coalition, J2 has spread in outer arc of I2..

this J2/I2 coalition might have reemerged later as sea peoples....

https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

R1a would be IE Scythians and Sarmatians
R1b would be iranian Medes /Madai and have also contributed to the arc of Serians...

https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251231819630/home/R1b.png

whether R1a was among Serians is hard to tell, but my guess is that most of it in the area is due to Indo-Scythians
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251231666063/home/R1a.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b9/Indo-ScythiansMap.jpg/501px-Indo-ScythiansMap.jpg

what do you think?

iapetoc
03-07-11, 19:26
wow big post

1 by 1

polε star
is πολικος αστηρ polikos aster but the case of the shape is name arktos αρκτος means bear, so ancient greeks knew that Bears are the symbol of North,
morning star is εωσφορος (lucifer, eosforos ) modern αυγερινος
evening star is Εσπερος (esperos, Esperia = Iberia, means in end)
there is connection in morning and evening star but not with polar star,
polar star is conneceted with bear, in fact with the small bear.

now about Hyperboreans we have 3 theories,
1) is the the around baltic cause the believe that all animals live there comes from the amber, and the animals prisoned in there.
2) is Scotland, we have a written about an island with rounded stone temples after the myth of perseus and Hecateus from avdira
(εκαταιος απο Αβδηρα) saved by Diodorus name clearly, but I can not find it.
Hecateus work is lost but parts of it exist in Diodorus, apollonius of Rhodes strabo and pliny,

the myth of partholon Neimhidh and Danann as also areas like iona in west scotland are strange,
but the case on north ireland or west scotland in a theory,
with out claiming that is correct,
simply it seems like when perseus reached portugal or spain (esperia) could travel north,
Danann and danae mother could be same,
Although I can not certify it, cause work is lost, and from the saved we find only few toponyms and some customs which connect scotland with ancient greece,
so the case is open for hyberoeans either to baltic either to scotland.


Danae with Danub? hmm I don't know,
Greek name of Danub is IStros

now about Dorians they are named after Doris a city of Locri people,
their alternate name is Trichakes means either Long hair, either from Trikke thessaly,
the moon star symbol?? of Byzantines? hmm All i know it was the symbol of Byzantium city of megareans in Mysia
I know that in slavic language sun moon and month are same sound words


well I don't know,
By what I realise you say that Greeks came from today afganistan-India?
with serbs? or just greeks took the south past and serbs the north?

the sirakes as Serbs Sorbs (germans) hmmm could be, but the white serbia does not fit well,
except if as I believe germans lived around Dacia and slavic origin is north of Caucas and they moved west push the german west who invaded roman empire,

about the Indo-Aryan I am not that sure.
simply the maps do not show exactly the the after J like I2a in Asia,
and also the years of estimation, j2b is a wide spread,
from Alexander we know that enough Indian people moved west to today turkey and Balkans,


I suposse that Gomer is alternate of Sumer
compare the pronounce of water
Su in turkish aqua in latin aqwa etc we see a q<->s change, a satem centum change
so in hebrew summerians could be gumerians sons of gumer-gomer who is summer
in fact gomer is after the translation of 70 so original hebrew text I dont know,
but I find it possible


you must enter also some times and more clear genes in your theory.


I was just ask about Hyperboreans cause from the written we find either scotland either baltic , but always an island.

iapetoc
08-07-11, 22:04
the late I find about Dacians the name of a god, not of getae but from thracians

Derzelas (means rider ??? according scource)

reconstruction gives also gherghelas !!
gherghelas the spear rider?
saint George? a famous theme from all germans and slavs from britain to russia from greece to scands

also Zalmoxis and Geate are mentioned in Mnaseas of Patrae
he identifies the Zalmoxis with Cronos
if we try a reconstruct we have z from gh ghalmoxis and gh->d dalmoxis
dalmoxis, dalmatia cronos and rhea
a possible connection of getae with veneti?
in Hesiod we find Crons had for wife Rhea, the godess Rheitia of Venneti?
so venneti and dacians had a connection according Hesiod, ?

lets the alternate of Zalmoxis the Ghe-Beleizis or Beleizis Beleiz !!!!!!!! any possible connection?
Bel??
godes ba-al in ancient world?
or zeus Belos ->bel-marduk becomes ghe-bel -> ghebeleizis,
the grand son of Hercules? in Lydia?
belus father of dido
Greek Belerophontes


very later Jordanes names the dacian law god Belagines :grin:

zalmoxis religion is like if you die by a weapon you go to heaven to kongaionion
(konga means sacred aionion means for ever)
any connection with any IE word?
Strabo is connecting Zalmoxis with trophonius,

the interesting in Dacian religion is that 3 mainly gods,
the god who died and reborn and the god hero,

so the words given by dagne give a baltoslavic origin
I am about to relative germanic,


the 2 languages are connected somewhere in baltic I know
we know from wiki that crimean was gothic speaking ,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic_language

I wonder in genetics do we have evidence?
can somone explain the R1a connection of gotland with the areas of crimea? and croatia?

zanipolo
08-07-11, 23:29
the late I find about Dacians the name of a god, not of getae but from thracians

Derzelas (means rider ??? according scource)

reconstruction gives also gherghelas !!
gherghelas the spear rider?
saint George? a famous theme from all germans and slavs from britain to russia from greece to scands

also Zalmoxis and Geate are mentioned in Mnaseas of Patrae
he identifies the Zalmoxis with Cronos
if we try a reconstruct we have z from gh ghalmoxis and gh->d dalmoxis
dalmoxis, dalmatia cronos and rhea
a possible connection of getae with veneti?
in Hesiod we find Crons had for wife Rhea, the godess Rheitia of Venneti?
so venneti and dacians had a connection according Hesiod, ?

lets the alternate of Zalmoxis the Ghe-Beleizis or Beleizis Beleiz !!!!!!!! any possible connection?
Bel??
godes ba-al in ancient world?
or zeus Belos ->bel-marduk becomes ghe-bel -> ghebeleizis,
the grand son of Hercules? in Lydia?
belus father of dido
Greek Belerophontes


very later Jordanes names the dacian law god Belagines :grin:

zalmoxis religion is like if you die by a weapon you go to heaven to kongaionion
(konga means sacred aionion means for ever)
any connection with any IE word?
Strabo is connecting Zalmoxis with trophonius,

the interesting in Dacian religion is that 3 mainly gods,
the god who died and reborn and the god hero,

so the words given by dagne give a baltoslavic origin
I am about to relative germanic,


the 2 languages are connected somewhere in baltic I know
we know from wiki that crimean was gothic speaking ,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimean_Gothic_language

I wonder in genetics do we have evidence?
can somone explain the R1a connection of gotland with the areas of crimea? and croatia?

interesting

so would the dacian
getae
Thracian
Odyssian
be all similar in genetics and linguistically?

zanipolo
09-07-11, 01:16
weird ancient text on eastern balkans lbelow, changes what was dacian or not

Homer states that the paphalgions from the lands of the enete helped troy.
Homer states that the veneti crossed the bosphorus as the teuckroi and musoi people who where from cochris and pontus lands.
They worshipped dion-issus ( bucchus in Greek), there priests where called bessi same as the goths ( ?? )of the danube.
Sophocles and Arrian states they then moved into the Moesia which was named after the gothic god moess ( bacchus in Greek).
The gothic area of the danube delta was called the ister. After reaching the adriatic, the other veneti ?? from Arcadia joined them , according to Herodutus.
Polybius then stated that they settled at lissa ( the old Venetian name for the Adriatic island of Vis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vis_%28island%29) ), then moved to the Po river delta area. The veneti named the river eodanus and the town Bodincomagus ( bodin is wodin in gothic) .The "veneti" who remained on the eastern shore of the adriatic settled into illyrian society and the illyrian queen Teuta was named on other gothic queens of the same name.

My question is ( sorry for long story above ), are the Getae and Goths the same, is dacian a modern name for the goths/getae in that area? ...............Crimean Goths?

To continue this story above, it also states that jason from argos in arcadia sailed to Salmyd-essus and Phasis and stole the golden fleece and escaped from medea to Eridanus on the euxine sea, he then travelled to Italy ( adriatic). the names of Danaus, Jason , Agenor and Eridanus are not greek but ..........

iapetoc
09-07-11, 01:35
weird ancient text on eastern balkans lbelow, changes what was dacian or not

Homer states that the paphalgions from the lands of the enete helped troy.
Homer states that the veneti crossed the bosphorus as the teuckroi and musoi people who where from cochris and pontus lands.
They worshipped dion-issus ( bucchus in Greek), there priests where called bessi same as the goths ( ?? )of the danube.
Sophocles and Arrian states they then moved into the Moesia which was named after the gothic god moess ( bacchus in Greek).
The gothic area of the danube delta was called the ister. After reaching the adriatic, the other veneti ?? from Arcadia joined them , according to Herodutus.
Polybius then stated that they settled at lissa ( the old Venetian name for the Adriatic island of Vis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vis_%28island%29) ), then moved to the Po river delta area. The veneti named the river eodanus and the town Bodincomagus ( bodin is wodin in gothic) .The "veneti" who remained on the eastern shore of the adriatic settled into illyrian society and the illyrian queen Teuta was named on other gothic queens of the same name.

My question is ( sorry for long story above ), are the Getae and Goths the same, is dacian a modern name for the goths/getae in that area? ...............Crimean Goths?

To continue this story above, it also states that jason from argos in arcadia sailed to Salmyd-essus and Phasis and stole the golden fleece and escaped from medea to Eridanus on the euxine sea, he then travelled to Italy ( adriatic). the names of Danaus, Jason , Agenor and Eridanus are not greek but ..........

the only i can answer is that Eridanus Jason are greek and eodanus has a meaning in greek
eridanus is a river in athens from ancient times
means either colorfull, either area of fights,
probably after iris or eris
Iason means the healer, the one who heals, Iaso was a goddes of healing
eodanus means light after eos
if connect danus with PIE river *dehnu- means river of light, morning river,
another is after io the danaus mother. a danais but i dont see connection,
and strabo places besii more east north of Aimos and south and east of romanian mountains

the interesting is the bodincomagus
according greek κωμη (plural κωμαι) is the head village the central of a party of villages,
alternate could be bodin -con-magus magus major - magister,
(the city of wodin priests?, or ruler city of wodin people)

how yes no 2
09-07-11, 23:32
t
if connect danus with PIE river *dehnu- means river of light, morning river,
another is after io the danaus mother. a danais but i dont see connection,

yes, this fits perfectly in Danaans (old name of proto-Greeks) being in old Slavic Zeruiani named after Zorya, whose name means dawn or morning light and whose one of 3 forms is morning star zvezda (star)Danica or morning or northern star....
while proto-serbs or white-Serbs would be white-Serians... which maps to white Syrians in Cappadocia who origin from Cimmerians and to I2a in Kurds of that area...

as Strabo equals Syrians with Sumerians... and calls white Syrians both tribes of Cappadocians (who origin from Cimmerians), tribal name Cimmerian is likely a variant of Sumerian applied for white Sumerians... who were haplogroup I people...they are white cause they origin from more north areas....

I relate them to Gutians who ruled over Sumer for around 100 years...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gutian_dynasty_of_Sumer

gutians would be same tribal name as Goths...
so I2a-din in Serbs and Croats is originally Gothic but via Sumer and tribal name Cimmerians or white Syrians.. tribal name Serbs is also originally used among those people...
it is derived from same roots as Suebi, Sarbans, Sardinia, Scordisci, Sherdana, Sart, Kurds...

sun living in house with Zorya would be ancient Macedonians, and winds living with Zorya would map to Veneti represented by greek wind gods (known in latin as Venti) : west Zephyrus - Serbs, his son Carpus - croats, east - Eurus - russuians/thracians, and north Borea - Borussians... the big state of Zeruiani from which all Slavs come from would be hellenic empire including Thrace and Moesia...

zanipolo
10-07-11, 00:22
gutians would be same tribal name as Goths...
so I2a-din in Serbs and Croats is originally Gothic but via Sumer and tribal name Cimmerians or white Syrians.. tribal name Serbs is also originally used among those people...
it is derived from same roots as Suebi, Sarbans, Sardinia, Scordisci, Sherdana, Sart, Kurds...

sun living in house with Zorya would be ancient Macedonians, and winds living with Zorya would map to Veneti represented by greek wind gods (known in latin as Venti) : west Zephyrus - Serbs, his son Carpus - croats, east - Eurus - russuians/thracians, and north Borea - Borussians... the big state of Zeruiani from which all Slavs come from would be hellenic empire including Thrace and Moesia...

Venti in latin is the wind gods, but most times called ANEMOI, WIND in latin is VENTUS
veneti in latin in VENETUS

You keep living with this serbian dream, tell me are you trying to suggest that serbs where not originally slavic OR are you saying anatolia and asiaminor was always slavic. I ask because slovenians and croatian professors are trying to prove that they are not slavic

and zephyr is winds from africa , same as mistal winds
Zephyr = west wind
Boreas = north wind
Eurus = east wind
Favonius = south wind

how yes no 2
10-07-11, 00:45
Venti in latin is the wind gods, but most times called ANEMOI, WIND in latin is VENTUS
veneti in latin in VENETUS


what kind of retarded argument is that?

Albanians were in medieval Serbia called Arbanasi
and in Italy Arberesche, and in Greece Arvanites... and they call themselves Shqiptar...
does that make them different people?

don't you see that
latin: Venetus = wind / Venti = wind gods / Veneti = tribal name
germanic: wind = wind / Wend = slavic

btw. also
dutch: wandelen = to walk around or said more generally to move in any direction (as wind does)
slavic: Skitati (to walk around or move in any direction)

thus we see relation in meaning of tribal name of Scythians in slavic languages and name of Veneti in italic and Germanic, and in fact displaying nomad lifestyle which was typical for areas east of Germania

so, what is relation of R1a Scythians with Veneti?



btw. it is ridicilous how you keep claiming you are not Albanian in origin...


You keep living with this serbian dream, tell me are you trying to suggest that serbs where not originally slavic OR are you saying anatolia and asiaminor was always slavic. I ask because slovenians and croatian professors are trying to prove that they are not slavic
Serbs are originally slavic, and core of slavic identity, but are perhaps not originally Balto-Slavic language speakers...
Slavs are tribal union of Balto-Slavic speaking R1a people with I2a-Din proto-Serbs and proto-Croats...
but from what I see this tribal union came to existence before Roman empire...


and zephyr is winds from africa , same as mistal winds

Zaphyrus is according to mythology west wind that was originally born in caves of thrace...
I am interested in mythology, I do not care how was mythology later (when original meaning was forgotten) applied to real winds...


look at timeline... in time when Greek mythology is made they know Zephyrus is born in thrace and spread to west...
in time of modern Serbs, Byzantine emperor notes they came from west, from land of Boika that can only be Bohemia and that they also originally dwellt there...
some other Byzantine sources identify Serbs with Tribali who lived along Danube in north Thrace...

I would say we have here people moving along Danube..... which essentially maps to Scordisci/Serdi and Tribali ... Scordisci is same tribal name as Sherden as in fact Scordus mountain of Greeks is Shar mountain in other languages of region... Sherden are known to have left place name Serbonian bog in Egypt...
Tribali is name that is related to Slavic religion that celebrates God with three different forms ... so it was exonym used by more south thracians who were of Greek origin probably




Zephyr = west wind
Boreas = north wind
Eurus = east wind
Favonius = south wind

Favonius can be Pannonians
though south wind is not mentioned as living with Zorya...

if Zephyrus as west Venti lived in white Serbia or Bohemia and Carpus Venti as his son in white Croatia - Galicia extending to next to Zephyrus, while nortmost Borea Venti in Prussia, and east most Eurus Venti in Belarus (= white russia), than Favonius Venti would be Pannonians as south most branch of Venti... area is now called Slavonia and Slovenia, so name Favonius could have origin from Slavonius in fact... today from Favonius Slovaks and slovenes would originate....

Wends is named that was used for all Slavs, and is still used for Sorbs of Germany
Jordanes wrote Slavs origin from populous race of Veneti...

now west linear pottery, thraco-Cimmerians archeological findings... compared to early Slavs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/European_Middle_Neolithic.gif/800px-European_Middle_Neolithic.gif

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/47/Origins_500A.png

there are too many clues pointing in same direction for you to keep rejecting those arguments...I am sorry to bash your albanian dreams but Veneti and Illyrians are different people...they might have shared part of vocabulary and language features as e.g. albanian is satem as slavic is and has many shared words with Slavic, but were in all respects different people...


Pannonians lived not only in Pannonia as suggested by name but also settled large part of Illyricum province once it was vacated due to Dacians slottering Illyrians during their wars with Celts......

examples of Pannonians likely being proto-Slavic are Ozeriates, who lived on Plitvice system of lakes, and whose tribal name has meaning lake only in slavic languages... another clue of Pannonians being proto-Slavic is that preserved words from Illyricum (and thus assigned to illyrian language) fit much better to slavic than to albanian...
this is because that was not illyrian language, but language of Pannonians who lived in province of Illyricum north of Montenegro...

iapetoc
10-07-11, 01:01
how yes no believes in slavic family and culture, and his is correct, about that,

the serbs are, is written, the most south and pure slavic nation,
balkars were not slavic
his theory is that slavs and goths came from middle east to balkan and not from north of Pontus,
then they went north and then moved south again
the pannoni basin is an area where all passed exept greeks
celts goths slavs romans even persians reach the pannoni basin after serbia becoming a nation state only turks passed and some parts the austrohungarians

zanipolo
10-07-11, 01:36
what kind of retarded argument is that?

albanians were in medieval Serbia called Arbanasi
and in Italy Arberesche, and in Greece Arvanites... and they call themselves Shqiptar...
does that make them different people?

don't you see that
latin: Venetus = wind / Venti = wind gods / Veneti = tribal name
germanic wind = wind / Wend = slavic


btw. it is ridicilous how you keep claiming you are not Albanian in origin...



LOL, you are so silly, there are people here who know I have no Albanian ties, you little brain thinks all illyrians are albanians , lol . I do not care for albanians, they are not even illyrians, but either moesian or dacian origin. Since I sad this many times, it must be your little brain does not register it.
As usual, slavs always try to take over extinct races to justify there existance in Europe.
Sorry for you , but realise, the slavs where the LAST to enter europe and do not take claims over other peoples race, be them extinct or not

VENETUS is not ventus ( wind ) you silly person
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/venetus
look at link and stop using word association to justify your stupid claims. Use correct terminolgy
VENTUS is wind

iapetoc always said veneti are blue , he is correct, you are wrong.

how yes no 2
10-07-11, 01:58
LOL, you are so silly, there are people here who know I have no Albanian ties, you little brain thinks all illyrians are albanians , lol . I do not care for albanians, they are not even illyrians, but either moesian or dacian origin. Since I sad this many times, it must be your little brain does not register it.
As usual, slavs always try to take over extinct races to justify there existance in Europe.
please avoid offending me....
one thing is to claim someone's argument is retarded, as I claimed that the argument you were making was...
anyone can have retarded arguments here and there

while it is completely different to tell some that he is retarded or has small brain...

there is giant difference between putting in low worth position someone's argument about something, and putting in lower worth position someone as person.... this is difference between civilized behavior that has respect for other people, and uncivilized ego guided behavior that sees no other people and interprets any critical statement regarding some of his thoughts or work as attack on his ego....

zanipolo
10-07-11, 02:02
Serbs are originally slavic, and core of slavic identity, but are perhaps not originally Balto-Slavic language speakers...
Slavs are tribal union of Balto-Slavic speaking R1a people with I2a-Din proto-Serbs and proto-Croats...
but from what I see this tribal union came to existence before Roman empire...



You know as well as I do that the serbians, where originally called SERVIANS, a name given to them by the Byzantines, because they where tartars and cimmerians who took on the greek religion. They where slaves brought from Azov by byzantine slavers. they where , once serving there servant ( servians) dutiies , where placed on the thracian regional borders to quell, either the Barbarians. In 998 the SERVIANS conquered thessally and moved north.

Look up the tartars and cimmerians who lived around AZOV and do not try to change western history on when the slavs entered the balkans.

Also, the serbian coat of arms bears the byzantine eagle because the Servians claim they are the servants and claimants of the byzantine empire

zanipolo
10-07-11, 02:03
please avoid offending me....


and you say you did not offend me, when you cease , I will cease

offending people, be it big or small is still offending

how yes no 2
10-07-11, 02:15
blue association comes from "Ventian blue" coin word...
obviously Venetian is not = blue because coin word would than be "blue blue"
I have no clue about origin of that coin word, but a guess is that t is probably a color made and sold either by Veneti or much later venetians....

speaking of Venetians, Slavs didnot call them Venetians, but Mlečani (= milk people)... some argue that it is about selling their identity and accepting italic one in order to be able to live well, or symbolically said - to drink milk every day

similarly, Germans are in Slavic languages not Germans but Nemci (dumb/mute people) and Švabe (derived from Suebi)...dumb/mute people is clearly again about those who lost their language...

tribal name Germans was originally tribal name of Gomer / Cimmerians, hence reluctance of Slavic people to apply it to those I2 Cimmerians who accepted language of invading Scandinavian I1 Suebi

similar thing we have in Serb settled areas of Ottoman empire with Serbs using name "Turks" for islamized Serbs(so called Bosniacs of today)

same is with Greeks (rightfully or not) refusing to acknowledge use of name Macedonians for south Slavic tribe living north of them...


and you say you did not offend me, when you cease , I will cease

offending people, be it big or small is still offending

I offended your argument, you offended me....
that is quite different...
you are not your argument...
argument is one negliglible expression of your personality in certain point of time....

you offended me as a person, which equals offending me as everything I ever did, felt, thought, said... offending my complete existence...

respect is about respecting person, not about respecting argument someone makes...
I am not offended if you call retarded some particular argument I made, but I am offended if you call me e.g. retarded or small brain person...


your post about serbs = servians = servants is not worth commenting, equivalent would be if I said that your nation of Shqiptars = sheep + Taurus = sheeps from Taurus mountain in Asia minor, which is of course non-sense, as albanians are nation of people and not sheeps and thus one needs to have respect for them as for any other nation or group of people...

iapetoc
10-07-11, 04:22
You know as well as I do that the serbians, where originally called SERVIANS, a name given to them by the Byzantines, because they where tartars and cimmerians who took on the greek religion. They where slaves brought from Azov by byzantine slavers. they where , once serving there servant ( servians) dutiies , where placed on the thracian regional borders to quell, either the Barbarians. In 998 the SERVIANS conquered thessally and moved north.

Look up the tartars and cimmerians who lived around AZOV and do not try to change western history on when the slavs entered the balkans.

Also, the serbian coat of arms bears the byzantine eagle because the Servians claim they are the servants and claimants of the byzantine empire


plz lets not go there,

Greek religion is still forbiden by laws,
you mean east orthodox,
well that is wrong cause slavic people turn to christianity at 700 AD when christian church was one and not catholic and orthodox,
cyrill and method were not teaching greek religion or orthodox christianity,
cyrill and method had also the license of pope of rome,
simply they translate bible to a language more easy to them (slavic people)

the case of serbs as servs is wrong and a myth
serbs enter balkans as nation that moves,
they were not the only ones,
cumans, alemagnes etc had done also the same,
even hunes came
πατριαρχης ο σερβος Servos comes cause greeks don't have b=mp but b = v
their inner name is srb is inner name, byzantines name them after their inner name and not by a name they think,

the slav we can found in many king names ,
like Borislav bori-slav, Radi-slav could a king be slave? no I don't think so,

the slavini theory = sklabini is not correct, I proved it above,

about the flags is another story,
eagle is at about 50% of flags,
now the 4 B of byzantine with the 4 C of serbs is also another story and means tottaly different
Βασιλευσ Βασιλει Βασιλεων Βασιλευοντων
Camo Cloga Crbina Cpagava (well i might write it wrong)
look at Albania flag which is 90% the Byzantine flag of war,

and turkish flag which is the coin of ancient Byzantium,
simply people have luck of imagination,


wow why I am always enter in foreign affairs?

iapetoc
10-07-11, 04:28
blue association comes from "Ventian blue" coin word...
obviously Venetian is not = blue because coin word would than be "blue blue"
I have no clue about origin of that coin word, but a guess is that t is probably a color made and sold either by Veneti or much later venetians....

speaking of Venetians, Slavs didnot call them Venetians, but Mlečani (= milk people)... some argue that it is about selling their identity and accepting italic one in order to be able to live well, or symbolically said - to drink milk every day

similarly, Germans are in Slavic languages not Germans but Nemci (dumb/mute people) and Švabe (derived from Suebi)...dumb/mute people is clearly again about those who lost their language...

tribal name Germans was originally tribal name of Gomer / Cimmerians, hence reluctance of Slavic people to apply it to those I2 Cimmerians who accepted language of invading Scandinavian I1 Suebi

similar thing we have in Serb settled areas of Ottoman empire with Serbs using name "Turks" for islamized Serbs(so called Bosniacs of today)

same is with Greeks (rightfully or not) refusing to acknowledge use of name Macedonians for south Slavic tribe living north of them...



I offended your argument, you offended me....
that is quite different...
you are not your argument...
argument is one negliglible expression of your personality in certain point of time....

you offended me as a person, which equals offending me as everything I ever did, felt, thought, said... offending my complete existence...

respect is about respecting person, not about respecting argument someone makes...
I am not offended if you call retarded some particular argument I made, but I am offended if you call me e.g. retarded or small brain person...


your post about serbs = servians = servants is not worth commenting, equivalent would be if I said that your nation of Shqiptars = sheep + Taurus = sheeps from Taurus mountain in Asia minor, which is of course non-sense, as albanians are nation of people and not sheeps and thus one needs to have respect for them as for any other nation or group of people...


man plz stop in every thread saying same thing, ok we read your theory many times,
3 times at this thread only,
check from 1rst page, you mention your theory for 3 times,

I wonder if I open a thread about Cherokee and Crik and Huron indians in America if you also find connection with serbians greek and Hrvatians

zanipolo
10-07-11, 04:49
blue association comes from "Ventian blue" coin word...
obviously Venetian is not = blue because coin word would than be "blue blue"
I have no clue about origin of that coin word, but a guess is that t is probably a color made and sold either by Veneti or much later venetians....


venetian blue is only a colour - a mix of blue and green. The venetian word for blue is BLU and light blue is CELESTE. Italian word for blue is azzurri
there is also Venetian red - used by the English for their soldiers, there is also venetian green, prussian blue, brunswick green , french blue etc etc........it means nothing.


same is with Greeks (rightfully or not) refusing to acknowledge use of name Macedonians for south Slavic tribe living north of them...


Are not the ancient macedonians extinct!



I offended your argument, you offended me....
that is quite different...
you are not your argument...
argument is one negliglible expression of your personality in certain point of time....

you offended me as a person, which equals offending me as everything I ever did, felt, thought, said... offending my complete existence..

you offended me personally because i told you twice before I was not albanian and still you try to use this to insult my posts, trying to say my posts are nationaltic



your post about serbs = servians = servants is not worth commenting, equivalent would be if I said that your nation of Shqiptars = sheep + Taurus = sheeps from Taurus mountain in Asia minor, which is of course non-sense, as albanians are nation of people and not sheeps and thus one needs to have respect for them as for any other nation or group of people...

do you deny that serbians original name was servian?

you where brainwashed in school by the yugoslv doctrine , like
Sbri....narod najstariji ( serbs an ancient people ) by Olga lukovic-Pjanovic
this was taught to you over and over ( brainwashed) , my slovene and croat friends said they lived with this rubbish of an education as well

zanipolo
10-07-11, 08:14
more on this book ( post 181)

Sbri....narod najstariji ( serbs an ancient people ) by Olga lukovic-Pjanovic

it states that the serbians lived in the following areas pre 4500BC , italy, greece, albanian, romania, bulgaria, macedonia, serbia, croatia, bosnia............they moved to india after 4500BC , then later on, they migrated to mesopotamia. they built the Tower of Babel. From there they split, some going to Egypt to be rulers and others went back to their "homeland" the balkans.
it states that this historical fact is not written anywhere but part of the serbian language ( confirmed in seekic's book in 1994 ), built into the language.

Now, how do you argue with this !!!

how yes no 2
10-07-11, 13:10
venetian blue is only a colour - a mix of blue and green. ........it means nothing.
veneti didnot mean blue...
it may be related to proto-Celtic word 'windo' meaning white...

if you search for 'blue' as related to nations, you should look into Cumans
they were called "Polovtsi" (=blue/blonde people, with blue being blue color but also meaning blonde for hair colours in slavic languages) by Slavic people, and Folban and Vallani by Germans, by Germans... Folban also meant 'blonde'... they called themselves Kipchaks.. in tukish word Cuman meant 'pale yellow'...

if they were really more 'blonde' than environment from which they came (which is the only explanation for calling them 'blonde') it probably is about turkicized tribe of Indo-European origin... this places proto-Cumans into Caucasus people that were turkicized...

name Vallani could be same as Sarmatian tribe Vales/Vali from Caucasus part of Asian Sarmatia, while Folban may be related to Caucasian Albania..... those are areas that were turkicized somewhat prior to appearance of Cumans... So in my opinion Cumans were turkicized Indo-European people of Caucasus, namely Vali/Vales and Caucasian Albanians..

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3e/Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg/800px-Map_of_Colchis%2C_Iberia%2C_Albania%2C_and_the_nei ghbouring_countries_ca_1770.jpg

It is hard to guess what haplogroups were Cumans made of as we do not have any nation claiming descent from them....
Cumans had large area of influence...at thieir highest point their state was as large as this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/50/Premongol-Kipchak.png

note that core from which they spread is easily Caucasian Albania, as south most central part of biggest Kipchak empire matches shapes of Caucasian Albania perfectly... so in my opinion we have Caucasian Albanians spreading to north and than to both east and west...under name of Kipchak....


Cumans were also present and very influential in Balkans in early medieval period...e.g. town Kumanovo in west Macedonia is named after Kumans...east and south of Kumanovo Albanian or Shqiptar settlements start... exonym Albanians matches exonym Folban, and self-identication Shqiptar does resemble to some extent the self-identification Kipchak


I do not claim that Albanians origin from Cumans, as genetics of Albanians is very Balkan mix, and in my opinion maps to previous inhabitants of Balkan such as Illyrians... but I do think that tribal name of Albanians both exonym Albanians and self-identification Shqiptars might be related to Cumans... who perhaps were elite warriors that came and organized local population...




same is with Greeks (rightfully or not) refusing to acknowledge use of name Macedonians for south Slavic tribe living north of them...


Are not the ancient macedonians extinct!
I thought so...but you should ask Greeks and FYR Macedonians.... cause it seems they disagree...



you offended me personally because i told you twice before I was not albanian and still you try to use this to insult my posts, trying to say my posts are nationaltic
áll your posts strongly suggest Albanian nationality... I do not see why would you be offended by someone thinking you are Albanian... Albanians are just people as anyone else, they are not sheeps or some lower race...



do you deny that serbians original name was servian?
you have another retarded argument here...



you where brainwashed in school by the yugoslv doctrine , like
Sbri....narod najstariji ( serbs an ancient people ) by Olga lukovic-Pjanovic
this was taught to you over and over ( brainwashed) , my slovene and croat friends said they lived with this rubbish of an education as well
don't make me laugh....
such books were never mentioned in schools and were generally always laughed out in all decent public media...
either your Croat and Slovene friends are lying you, or you are lying.... I doubt any Croat or Slovene would ever claim stg. you said above.... so, in my opinion it is the second case... that is also consistent with suspect that you lie about your nationality...

how yes no 2
10-07-11, 13:55
man plz stop in every thread saying same thing, ok we read your theory many times,
3 times at this thread only,
check from 1rst page, you mention your theory for 3 times,

I wonder if I open a thread about Cherokee and Crik and Huron indians in America if you also find connection with serbians greek and Hrvatians

I repeat because I add or modify something in the theory I am developing, and cannot just link to previous posts to explain new subtle links found... besides almost noone who reads forum posts does ever follow links... also I take into account that reader of one thread may not follow another thread, so I try to give consistent story in every related thread... here it is relevant because question of who were Dacians and who is their offspring is related to question about origin of Thracians, Veneti, Balto-Slavs, Germanic people... I do not think Serbs, Croats or Greeks were Dacians, but I think they were their neighbours more or less...

zanipolo
10-07-11, 14:07
veneti didnot mean blue...
it may be related to proto-Celtic word 'windo' meaning white...

if you search for 'blue' as related to nations, you should look into Cumans
they were called "Polovtsi" (=blue/blonde people, with blue being blue color but also meaning blonde for hair colours in slavic languages) by Slavic people, and Folban and Vallani by Germans, by Germans... Folban also meant 'blonde'... they called themselves Kipchaks.. in tukish word Cuman meant 'pale yellow'...

if they were really more 'blonde' than environment from which they came (which is the only explanation for calling them 'blonde') it probably is about turkicized tribe of Indo-European origin...

What are you talking about , u are confusing the issue, i never said anything about blue, you did.
And now you make a retard comment about it





áll your posts strongly suggest Albanian nationality... I do not see why would you be offended by someone thinking you are Albanian... Albanians are just people as anyone else, they are not sheeps or some lower race...


another stupid assumption....I did not realise people where not allowed to talk about another race if they where not that race...thats your problem, you are too too nationalistic and distort all the truth ( like the book I mentioned ) . this forum is not about nationaltic propaganda, but about find the truth .

I explained how you offended me, read the post again.



you have another retarded argument here...


Insult number 3 .........I am the third person you have insulted on this forum, how many more are you going to target ?




don't make me laugh....
such books were never mentioned in schools and were generally always laughed out in all decent public media...
either your Croat and Slovene friends are lying you, or you are lying.... I doubt any Croat or Slovene would ever claim stg. you said above.... so, in my opinion it is the second case... that is also consistent with suspect that you lie about your nationality...

Do not worry, i know how to properly search the internet, I will find articles and similar propoganda of this propaganda book which serbian .
You have the same philophy in all your posts, serbians are everywhere , every valley, every delta, etc etc, same as I read in the book.

how yes no 2
10-07-11, 14:22
again, Zanipolo, because it seems hard for you to understand:

you are not the same as your argument... associating a value to your argument is not associating value to you as a person....
anyone can have retarded argument, but that doesnot mean that person is retarded...

argument you make is just an expression of your current state of mind in some point of time... noone is brilliant all the time... all people make once in a while retarded arguments...but pointing out that some argument they put forward is retarded doesnot mean that they are retarded...

I never thought or said that that you are retarded, but two arguments you made I have evaluated as retarded... my evaluation of value of the argument can be wrong because you perhaps have deeper causes behind argument that I cannot read or find in posts... but I am entitled to evaluate arguments other people make...that is one of core points of debates... however, I respect persons who participate in debate... e.g. I think you had many quite interesting posts..

in any case, you are not what you said, or what other people may think of you.... you as any human being have inner value and lot of complex prehistory that determines your attitudes and behavior... you cannot put equal sign between a person and one sentence he made.... while sentence may be retarded, person may be brilliant... do you think that e.g. Einstein never said or claimed anything retarded?

how yes no 2
10-07-11, 14:41
Btw. idea of Cuman - Albanian connection I did see somewhere on net some time ago... I think it may be truth only partially, only regarding origin of tribal names, as Albanians seems to have very Balkan genetics..

Relation to this thread is that shared words between Romanians and Albanians that are thought to origin from Dacians might in fact came via genetically insignificant elite of Cuman warriors that perhaps arrived from Romania part of Cuman empire and organized local people...But this is just an idea... another option is that Illyrians were actually ruled by Dacian elite in last part of their historical mention... reason to suspect this is that Strabo speaks of Dacians cleaning up big parts of Illyria from Illyrians... so perhaps Dacians subdued Illyrians and influenced their language...

zanipolo
10-07-11, 14:41
I do not know where this colour stuff arose,
but I looked it up. The was 4 factions in the byzantine court , red, green, white and Blue. Blue was associated with the veneti trading faction. These started from 600-700 AD. It only reflects areas INSIDE the eastern Roman empire in regards to trade, voting, laws, taxes etc etc.

iapetoc
10-07-11, 15:04
Veneti is a color strange colour of a blue that sometimes sparks light

Venetia is a rare name also in Pontic Greeks

when I said about that I asked
maybe Veneti are named after Blue eyes?


now about Cumans, How yes no, I was the one who gave connection of Hunjadi and Anju with cumans,

zanipolo
11-07-11, 09:59
http://www.third-millennium-library.com/readinghall/UniversalHistory/Rome/IMPERIAL_PEACE/2-GETAE_DACIANS.html

link above has information on the dacians and getae ......interesting read. the dacians portion is two thirds down the page.

also , at top of page the green arrow to the right give article on the sarmatians

zanipolo
11-07-11, 10:04
again, Zanipolo, because it seems hard for you to understand:

you are not the same as your argument... associating a value to your argument is not associating value to you as a person....
anyone can have retarded argument, but that doesnot mean that person is retarded...

argument you make is just an expression of your current state of mind in some point of time... noone is brilliant all the time... all people make once in a while retarded arguments...but pointing out that some argument they put forward is retarded doesnot mean that they are retarded...

I never thought or said that that you are retarded, but two arguments you made I have evaluated as retarded... my evaluation of value of the argument can be wrong because you perhaps have deeper causes behind argument that I cannot read or find in posts... but I am entitled to evaluate arguments other people make...that is one of core points of debates... however, I respect persons who participate in debate... e.g. I think you had many quite interesting posts..

in any case, you are not what you said, or what other people may think of you.... you as any human being have inner value and lot of complex prehistory that determines your attitudes and behavior... you cannot put equal sign between a person and one sentence he made.... while sentence may be retarded, person may be brilliant... do you think that e.g. Einstein never said or claimed anything retarded?

read the link as promised, it mentions the book and articles - from post 182

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Z33lYP30tCMC&pg=PA146&dq=ancient+serbs&hl=en&ei=7QIZTqfwKaf_mAWeu7EX&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=ancient%20serbs&f=false

this link below questions jordanes - a plagearist , amend capporius works and amended them to suit his needs

http://chazwyman.wordpress.com/jordanes-getica-as-a-source-for-the-history-of-the-goths/

Diurpaneus
14-12-11, 18:17
Anyone still interested in this?
In Romania are well known those simmilarities not only between Thracian/Dacian languages and Lithuanian language, but between Romanian and Lithuanian as well.

Taranis
14-12-11, 18:58
Anyone still interested in this?
In Romania are well known those simmilarities not only between Thracian/Dacian languages and Lithuanian language, but between Romanian and Lithuanian as well.

Welcome to the forum!

Yes, I absolutely agree that there are Dacian loanwords inherited by Romanian.

Diurpaneus
15-12-11, 18:04
Welcome to the forum!

Yes, I absolutely agree that there are Dacian loanwords inherited by Romanian.






Thank you!


Dacian language seems to be a Satem language.
Most of the Dacian words are similar to Balto-Slavic.Others are close to Centum (Greek, Latin and Celtic) or Iranian(Scythian)
There is only one inscription in Dacian language: Decebalus per Scorilo.Translation is Decebalus,Scorilo's sun.
So "per" is "son" close to latin "puer". The Dacian names Zinaper,Usaper,Pieporus means Zina's son and so on.
Germisara(also written Zermisara) is a place name .Translation is Hot Spring( the city was near to a hot spring).
jerm(Albanian), germ( Old Persian)= hot
sara,zara(Iranian)= spring, river
Berzovis(place name), from Lithuanian "berzas", Latvian "berzs"= birch (there are birch forest in the area).
Thracian"mezen", Romanian "manz",Albanian "mez"=colt,mare's baby could be related with Lithuanian"mazas", Latvian"mazs"= small.
In Romanian dictionaries there is no word who is considered of Dacian origin(due the lack of writtings in Dacian language).Although many scholars believe there is much more than 160( common to Albanian)words.Most of them considered Slavic origin.

Endri
15-12-11, 22:34
Thank you!


Dacian language seems to be a Satem language.
Most of the Dacian words are similar to Balto-Slavic.Others are close to Centum (Greek, Latin and Celtic) or Iranian(Scythian)
There is only one inscription in Dacian language: Decebalus per Scorilo.Translation is Decebalus,Scorilo's sun.
So "per" is "son" close to latin "puer". The Dacian names Zinaper,Usaper,Pieporus means Zina's son and so on.
Germisara(also written Zermisara) is a place name .Translation is Hot Spring( the city was near to a hot spring).
jerm(Albanian), germ( Old Persian)= hot
sara,zara(Iranian)= spring, river
Berzovis(place name), from Lithuanian "berzas", Latvian "berzs"= birch (there are birch forest in the area).
Thracian"mezen", Romanian "manz",Albanian "mez"=colt,mare's baby could be related with Lithuanian"mazas", Latvian"mazs"= small.
In Romanian dictionaries there is no word who is considered of Dacian origin(due the lack of writtings in Dacian language).Although many scholars believe there is much more than 160( common to Albanian)words.Most of them considered Slavic origin.

I don't have much to debate but that word 'jerm', where did you find it? I've never heard it and on dictionaries i can't find it with the meaning of 'hot'.

The 2 meanings of 'jerm' i know are : jerm-deliring, ramble and jerminë-a sort of tree or bush very similar to juniper tree.

Yetos
16-12-11, 01:36
Thank you!


Dacian language seems to be a Satem language.
Most of the Dacian words are similar to Balto-Slavic.Others are close to Centum (Greek, Latin and Celtic) or Iranian(Scythian)
There is only one inscription in Dacian language: Decebalus per Scorilo.Translation is Decebalus,Scorilo's sun.
So "per" is "son" close to latin "puer". The Dacian names Zinaper,Usaper,Pieporus means Zina's son and so on.
Germisara(also written Zermisara) is a place name .Translation is Hot Spring( the city was near to a hot spring).
jerm(Albanian), germ( Old Persian)= hot
sara,zara(Iranian)= spring, river
Berzovis(place name), from Lithuanian "berzas", Latvian "berzs"= birch (there are birch forest in the area).
Thracian"mezen", Romanian "manz",Albanian "mez"=colt,mare's baby could be related with Lithuanian"mazas", Latvian"mazs"= small.
In Romanian dictionaries there is no word who is considered of Dacian origin(due the lack of writtings in Dacian language).Although many scholars believe there is much more than 160( common to Albanian)words.Most of them considered Slavic origin.

don't be so sure
SarmiGET-Ussa
Get = Goat = Goths
ending exept Dava are also using Thracian -est (Germanic Nest)
and Anatolian -ussa -ssa and Germanic -au
at least the case of Wessarabia and Akkerman castle we might say that Getae were more Gothic than Slavic
same tracks can be found also about Thracians, but mostly for Dacians,
If Dacian were Slavic their God will not be Zalmoxis but Zalmots
its Decebalus sound that is not Familiar to slavic languages

Diurpaneus
16-12-11, 15:54
don't be so sure
SarmiGET-Ussa
Get = Goat = Goths
ending exept Dava are also using Thracian -est (Germanic Nest)
and Anatolian -ussa -ssa and Germanic -au
at least the case of Wessarabia and Akkerman castle we might say that Getae were more Gothic than Slavic
same tracks can be found also about Thracians, but mostly for Dacians,
If Dacian were Slavic their God will not be Zalmoxis but Zalmots
its Decebalus sound that is not Familiar to slavic languages



First of all Get and Goth is a coincidence.Do you think that Albion is the same thing with Albania?
About -iste, -esti; is true many places in Romania ends with that like in Thracian/Dacian.
There is no Wesserebia, but Besserebia;it came from voievod Basarab.
Akkerman(Turkish), Cetatea Alba(Romanian)=The White Fortress.The Turks took the fortress from us, but they kept the meaning.
The Greeks made some mistakes(for example Xerxes- Persians call it Shayarsha, probably because it was dificult for them to say "sh" like in english"wash"; so it could have been Zamolshis or Zalmoshis.
Romanian Thracologyst Sorin Olteanu said that although a Satem language Dacian/Thracian had many Centum elements .
In Romania there is a special poetry and music called "doina". Many women have this name.
Only Baltic people have something simmilar called "daina".

Diurpaneus
16-12-11, 16:04
I don't have much to debate but that word 'jerm', where did you find it? I've never heard it and on dictionaries i can't find it with the meaning of 'hot'.

The 2 meanings of 'jerm' i know are : jerm-deliring, ramble and jerminë-a sort of tree or bush very similar to juniper tree.

Yes, my mistake. It is Armenian"jerm" not Albanian.

Yetos
16-12-11, 17:28
First of all Get and Goth is a coincidence.Do you think that Albion is the same thing with Albania?
About -iste, -esti; is true many places in Romania ends with that like in Thracian/Dacian.
There is no Wesserebia, but Besserebia;it came from voievod Basarab.
Akkerman(Turkish), Cetatea Alba(Romanian)=The White Fortress.The Turks took the fortress from us, but they kept the meaning.
The Greeks made some mistakes(for example Xerxes- Persians call it Shayarsha, probably because it was dificult for them to say "sh" like in english"wash"; so it could have been Zamolshis or Zalmoshis.
Romanian Thracologyst Sorin Olteanu said that although a Satem language Dacian/Thracian had many Centum elements .
In Romania there is a special poetry and music called "doina". Many women have this name.
Only Baltic people have something simmilar called "daina".


are you sure?

Greek also have word Doina
compare virb ωδω odo and song ωδη odi ode and singer αοιδος aidos (acccus aoidon)
Albion might have nothing to do with Albania but Alba might Has

In Fact many Greek Thracologist reject the idea of Dacian = Baltic
Many thracian words were isotones with Greek and many seem to be a pre-German and Pre-Slavic
a missing link among German and Baltoslavic
and Thracian among Greek and Persian

Read post 153
Gothing were spoken in Crimea until 20th Century,
and according Strabo Vissii Getae which later become Visigoths homeland is southern Romania
whila ostroGoths land is 'Getatea Alba'

Yetos
16-12-11, 17:34
I don't have much to debate but that word 'jerm', where did you find it? I've never heard it and on dictionaries i can't find it with the meaning of 'hot'.

The 2 meanings of 'jerm' i know are : jerm-deliring, ramble and jerminë-a sort of tree or bush very similar to juniper tree.

I think there is a virb in Albania meaning warm or Hot like ziez or ziej
and in Greek ζεω zeo

Endri
16-12-11, 17:47
I think there is a virb in Albania meaning warm or Hot like ziez or ziej
and in Greek ζεω zeo

Is 'ziej' and means 'boil'. 'warm' is 'i ngrohtë (adj)' and 'hot' is 'i nxehtë (adj)'

Yetos
16-12-11, 20:05
Is 'ziej' and means 'boil'. 'warm' is 'i ngrohtë (adj)' and 'hot' is 'i nxehtë (adj)'

as you see Armenian jerm Dacian Germ Greek therm Zeo, zemat- Albanian Ziej share a common root which connects at temperature and warming,

the exact meaning many times times change through time but similar remain

Endri
16-12-11, 21:57
as you see Armenian jerm Dacian Germ Greek therm Zeo, zemat- Albanian Ziej share a common root which connects at temperature and warming,

the exact meaning many times times change through time but similar remain

I think this words connect through PIE and maybe Taranis can help us more with this, though i've always thought was or is a Turkish loan word.

Also Diurpaneus, can you provide us with a sort of vocabulary of Albanian and Romanian similar words cause the only word i know is 'copil'-'child/small kid' romanian and 'kopil'-'illegitimate child' albanian.

Yetos
16-12-11, 22:50
I think this words connect through PIE and maybe Taranis can help us more with this, though i've always thought was or is a Turkish loan word.

Also Diurpaneus, can you provide us with a sort of vocabulary of Albanian and Romanian similar words cause the only word i know is 'copil' romanian and 'kopil' albanian.

No it is not Turkish but IE compare ancient Goddes Estia in Kallas Zestia etc

Diurpaneus
18-12-11, 21:37
Also Diurpaneus, can you provide us with a sort of vocabulary of Albanian and Romanian similar words cause the only word i know is 'copil'-'child/small kid' romanian and 'kopil'-'illegitimate child' albanian.



Romanian-Albanian

baltă - balt(ovin)ë= lake,puddle, swamp
buză - buzë= lips
boier - bujar= noble
brazdă - brazdë= furrow
brumă - brymë= frost
căciulă - kësulë= cap
căpuşă - këpushë= tick
cătun - katund= village
ceafă - qafë= neck
cioară - sorrë= crow
creier - kre(u)= brain
moş - (i) (mosh-ë)uar= old man
rază - rreze= ray of light
zână - zanë= fairy
viezure - vjedhull= badger
vatră - vatër= hearth


Read "ă" like Albanian "ë" .

There is much more Endri.

Endri
19-12-11, 00:04
Romanian-Albanian

baltă - balt(ovin)ë= lake,puddle, swamp
buză - buzë= lips
boier - bujar= noble
brazdă - brazdë= furrow
brumă - brymë= frost
căciulă - kësulë= cap
căpuşă - këpushë= tick
cătun - katund= village
ceafă - qafë= neck
cioară - sorrë= crow
creier - kre(u)= brain
moş - (i) (mosh-ë)uar= old man
rază - rreze= ray of light
zână - zanë= fairy
viezure - vjedhull= badger
vatră - vatër= hearth


Read "ă" like Albanian "ë" .

There is much more Endri.

Yes, i did a bit of researche and found some, though some words, idk if on purpose or by mistake cause they don't know albanian very well had some letters shifted, also i noticed was that most of the Romanian /s/ has shifted into the albanian /sh/ and not /s/ in these common words.

Exp:
'scrum' (ashes)-'shkrumb' (burned to the ground) 'ashes' is 'hi' in albanian (and is not read as english HI!)
'sterp' (sterile)-'shtërp' (sterile)
'stăghiată' (storm)-'shtëngatë' (storm)

Though there are words like:

'şale' (hips)-'shalë' (thighs) and 'daş' (goat)-'dash' (goat)

PS: 'kre(u)' means (head/first but not like human head though that might have been it's first meaning but like "The head of the race"-"Kreu i garës" thus the verb 'kryesoj'-(take the) 'lead'). 'Brain' is 'Tru(ri)' (in brackets is the definite form of the noun)

PPS: Actually just 'moş' in albanian means 'age' (Exp: "My age is..."-"Mosha ime është..."), thus the words like 'moshatar' (same age) and 'i/e moshuar' (old people).

LeBrok
19-12-11, 01:00
Romanian-Albanian

baltă - balt(ovin)ë= lake,puddle, swamp
buză - buzë= lips
boier - bujar= noble
brazdă - brazdë= furrow
brumă - brymë= frost
căciulă - kësulë= cap
căpuşă - këpushë= tick
cătun - katund= village
ceafă - qafë= neck
cioară - sorrë= crow
creier - kre(u)= brain
moş - (i) (mosh-ë)uar= old man
rază - rreze= ray of light
zână - zanë= fairy
viezure - vjedhull= badger
vatră - vatër= hearth


Read "ă" like Albanian "ë" .

There is much more Endri.

First 3 you can cross off the list. They have slavic etymology.
balta - all slavic bolto - same meaning
buza - slavic buzia, buza - same meaning, IE origin Latin - bucca
boier - bojar - root boj means war in all slavic, bojar means warrior. In feudal times only noble class were warriors, unlike peasants, hens the transition into noble class.

Taranis
19-12-11, 14:21
boier - bojar - root boj means war in all slavic, bojar means warrior. In feudal times only noble class were warriors, unlike peasants, hens the transition into noble class.

This word is actually quite interesting. While it usually is considered of Turkic etymology (compare modern Turkish "bol" - "abundant, plentiful"), but I remember that how-yes-no attempted to link it with the Celtic tribal name "Boii". The problem is that this in turn is derived from PIE *gwous (compare English "cow", Old Irish "bó"), and the *gw > *b is a Celtic development. To my knowledge, there is no native cognate in the Slavic languages, but if there was, it would be similar to Latvian 'govs'. In other words, the word must be a loanword either way. The Celtic name "Boii" is usually interpreted as "cattle owners", which would be weird (but not unconceivable) to be shifted to "noble". The question is, how likely is it that the Proto-Slavs had contact with Celts (especially the Boii), and where? In the end, I think that the Turkic etymology is the more likely one because the oldest form is recorded with an "l".

Endri
19-12-11, 14:27
First 3 you can cross off the list. They have slavic etymology.
balta - all slavic bolto - same meaning
buza - slavic buzia, buza - same meaning, IE origin Latin - bucca
boier - bojar - root boj means war in all slavic, bojar means warrior. In feudal times only noble class were warriors, unlike peasants, hens the transition into noble class.


Also, since it seems i missed it, 'bujar' in albanian doesn't mean 'noble' or any thing related to it. It means 'generous' while 'noble' is 'fisnik'. Also i've always thought 'bujar' was a Turkish loan word...

Yetos
19-12-11, 14:45
This word is actually quite interesting. While it usually is considered of Turkic etymology (compare modern Turkish "bol" - "abundant, plentiful"), but I remember that how-yes-no attempted to link it with the Celtic tribal name "Boii". The problem is that this in turn is derived from PIE *gwous (compare English "cow", Old Irish "bó"), and the *gw > *b is a Celtic development. To my knowledge, there is no native cognate in the Slavic languages, but if there was, it would be similar to Latvian 'govs'. In other words, the word must be a loanword either way. The Celtic name "Boii" is usually interpreted as "cattle owners", which would be weird (but not unconceivable) to be shifted to "noble". The question is, how likely is it that the Proto-Slavs had contact with Celts (especially the Boii), and where? In the end, I think that the Turkic etymology is the more likely one because the oldest form is recorded with an "l".

maybe you should also add the Greek words Βους Βολος Βουκολος (Vous Volos Voukolos ) meaning ox, Bull, Breeder,
which probably existed at Thracians as similar sounds (suppose)

Taranis
19-12-11, 15:16
maybe you should also add the Greek words Βους Βολος Βουκολος (Vous Volos Voukolos ) meaning ox, Bull, Breeder,
which probably existed at Thracians as similar sounds (suppose)

Yes, this is correct. Though you should consider that it probably was something akin to *γϝους (gwous) in Mycenean Greek.

Diurpaneus
19-12-11, 18:43
First 3 you can cross off the list. They have slavic etymology.
balta - all slavic bolto - same meaning
buza - slavic buzia, buza - same meaning, IE origin Latin - bucca
boier - bojar - root boj means war in all slavic, bojar means warrior. In feudal times only noble class were warriors, unlike peasants, hens the transition into noble class.


There are some Dacian/Thracian names who might be connected to "boier",
Towns:Buridava,Buricodava
Buris, Bourkentios(Thracian names)
Burebista(also Boirebista), a Dacian king.The proposed translation is"rich possessor"
bhuri(Sanskrit)= abundant, rich
vista(Old Iranian)=possessor
Buri- a Dacian Tribe
Albanian burre=man, husband
There are many words in Romanian borrowed from Slavic but who have much more meanings,and are used in many expressions too.
for example:
zori=dawn, light,kind of dance,to rush, to increase speed,to walk fast, to alert
from Slavic" Zorja"
Many animal and plant names contains "balta"
Trestia de balta=cane
Lupul baltii=pike(fish) etc

LeBrok
19-12-11, 22:03
It is not Turkic word from Turkey. First Bulgarian records show "boila" for description of nobles in 10 century. Turks came to Turkey in 11 century.
It might make sense if Huns or Avars spoke turkic and introduced the term over slavs, as a ruling elite. But I'm not sure if they spoke turkic.
It is a possibility that Bulgars brought it to the Balkans. If they spoke Iranian the word could have been related to slavic anyway. If they were Turkic speakers then it is easy to conclude that it is turkic.
I'm sure that word "bojar, boyar" was popularized by Bulgarian Empire, and then by orthodox christianity spread over slavic countries. Title Car (Tzar) for rulers is a similar example of Bulgarian Empire influence.
Neither Car nor Bojar took hold in catholic-slavic nations.

The reason that I’m not too crazy about slavic origin forBojar is the ending “ar” Car is a shortform of latin Cezar, but why boila became boilar or boyar. Unless one was plural the other singular,though still doesn’t sound like slavic grammar.

Taranis
20-12-11, 00:58
It is not Turkic word from Turkey. First Bulgarian records show "boila" for description of nobles in 10 century. Turks came to Turkey in 11 century.
It might make sense if Huns or Avars spoke turkic and introduced the term over slavs, as a ruling elite. But I'm not sure if they spoke turkic.
It is a possibility that Bulgars brought it to the Balkans. If they spoke Iranian the word could have been related to slavic anyway. If they were Turkic speakers then it is easy to conclude that it is turkic.
I'm sure that word "bojar, boyar" was popularized by Bulgarian Empire, and then by orthodox christianity spread over slavic countries. Title Car (Tzar) for rulers is a similar example of Bulgarian Empire influence.
Neither Car nor Bojar took hold in catholic-slavic nations.

The reason that I’m not too crazy about slavic origin forBojar is the ending “ar” Car is a shortform of latin Cezar, but why boila became boilar or boyar. Unless one was plural the other singular,though still doesn’t sound like slavic grammar.


LeBrok, I carefully worded things as "Turkic" and not "Turkish", and merely gave the word from the modern-day Turkish language word as an example of a probable cognate.

LeBrok
20-12-11, 03:01
No, no, it wasn't against you. Lot's of thinking out loud, and voicing a concern that if it was turkic it wasn't from Ottoman Empire occupation.

Yetos
20-12-11, 06:50
No, no, it wasn't against you. Lot's of thinking out loud, and voicing a concern that if it was turkic it wasn't from Ottoman Empire occupation.

I think you know that para-Turks came to Europe centuries before Turks in minor Asia
Oghurs Tatars are considered from same family of Turks

Taranis
21-12-11, 09:17
No, no, it wasn't against you. Lot's of thinking out loud, and voicing a concern that if it was turkic it wasn't from Ottoman Empire occupation.

Well, the Turkic languages are all fairly similar to each other. The difference between Turkish and Uighur is maybe the same as between Spanish and Italian. The only real outlier is the Chuvash language.

Zemra
12-01-13, 00:08
Bumping an ancient topic, but I only joined here for the linguistic section
Arbanitan Konga konge means holy land in Albanian language Where did you hear/read that? 'vend i shenjtë' is the correct translation, 'këngë'/'kanga' means 'song'
*karpa to cut, stone karpe, karma (*karp-m-) 'stone' (Albanian) OK
Albanian Duch???? Duchani'tym' is the word for 'smoke'
compare bucuresti with Albanian word Bukur both means beatifulAlb. 'beautiful', Rom.'happy' if I checked it right
here is something amusing:I was glossing through some more Albanian and Romanian words, and I found a number of "false signals" that are actually words common to both languages, but clearly not of Dacian origin. :laughing:For example for "boot":Albanian "Çizme" - Romanian "Cizma" ("Çizme" in Turkish)Given additional Slavic borrowings (in addition to Turkish), we must eliminate a lot of words there, I assume.It's the Balkan Sprachbund. Part of it are words of Turkish origin. All Balkan countries have the same words from Turkish, but the majority of them are not in use anymore, mostly because they're substituted by neologisms, or loans from other languages, or even words not used for a long time usually found written somewhere. Some of them have remained, because they couldn't be substituted.
Btw. idea of Cuman - Albanian connection I did see somewhere on net some time ago... I think it may be truth only partially, only regarding origin of tribal names, as Albanians seems to have very Balkan genetics.. bit.ly/2kIJjf :bored:

Yetos
12-01-13, 02:17
Bumping an ancient topic, but I only joined here for the linguistic sectionWhere did you hear/read that? 'vend i shenjtë' is the correct translation, 'këngë'/'kanga' means 'song'OK'tym' is the word for 'smoke'Alb. Search how Arbanites named the monasteries. both in messologgi and in Suli is Κιουγκι wchich is simmilar with Dacian Konga except if you don't conside Arbanitew as Albanian linguistic group.

8mike
13-01-13, 22:12
as you see Armenian jerm Dacian Germ Greek therm Zeo, zemat- Albanian Ziej share a common root which connects at temperature and warming,the exact meaning many times times change through time but similar remainThe word "ziej" can also be found inside another word which is "nxeht" which means "warm" with t same sound correspondance of "zi" (black) and "nxi" (turn black). The strange thing is the /h/ in the end.

Zemra
14-01-13, 01:52
Search how Arbanites named the monasteries. both in messologgi and in Suli is Κιουγκι wchich is simmilar with Dacian Konga except if you don't conside Arbanitew as Albanian linguistic group.It's Albanian with lots of Greek influence. I couldn't find what you asked, mind if you gave me a link?
The word "ziej" can also be found inside another word which is "nxeht" which means "warm" with t same sound correspondance of "zi" (black) and "nxi" (turn black). The strange thing is the /h/ in the end.Are you talking about 'h' in 'nxehtë'? Probably a dialectal variation. It's silent when it's spoken in some areas. It's a similar case with "yll" and "hyll" (star). The standard is "yll", but some areas pronounce it as "hyll". "Hyll" should be the correct form considering the origin of the word. So the standard and the common pronunciation often change from each other.

8mike
14-01-13, 10:41
This word is actually quite interesting. While it usually is considered of Turkic etymology (compare modern Turkish "bol" - "abundant, plentiful"), but I remember that how-yes-no attempted to link it with the Celtic tribal name "Boii". The problem is that this in turn is derived from PIE *gwous (compare English "cow", Old Irish "bó"), and the *gw > *b is a Celtic development. To my knowledge, there is no native cognate in the Slavic languages, but if there was, it would be similar to Latvian 'govs'. In other words, the word must be a loanword either way. The Celtic name "Boii" is usually interpreted as "cattle owners", which would be weird (but not unconceivable) to be shifted to "noble". The question is, how likely is it that the Proto-Slavs had contact with Celts (especially the Boii), and where? In the end, I think that the Turkic etymology is the more likely one because the oldest form is recorded with an "l".I have always wondered if that is also the source of albanian "ka" (ox) and "gul" (hornless ox)

Vedun
28-06-14, 10:39
there is also the christianity times,
remamber that original Slavic cultures are the ones who connected with CYrillic Alphabet.
perhaps a full slavonization had happened that times, or a reform and reconstruction of ancient languages,

just think of a rulling class that promotes the bible and an alphabet in tribal, same time, that creates a literature same time all the area of expand that have a common basis of language and written, the more powerfull the reform of cyrillic the more results,

just think in Alaska what had happened, in some islands people still speak Russian although in USA,
the cyrillic eliminated many pre-slavic and forced a united Slavic culture,
that means that differences from Samara, Urals to Croatia differences should have been bigger, but cyrillic flat them all, and bring closer the language,

Christianity was not the "1. slavic culture". My grand grand mother was still a priestess of old Slavic faith (no neo pagan nonsense). She said that people were forced into it (Christianity), otherwise they were killed. Part of the nation switched into Bogomilism (there exist fairy tales about "last Cathars in France" and other nonsense; the latest Cathars lived in Bosnia), and were extremelly ascetic. "Their women were constantly jumping to achieve the special state of mind...". This has 0 to do with "culture" but with parasitism, which was established by Hebrews and Greeks and Romans with their artificial Osirian and Sethanic cults assimilating original elements of foreign nations. Christianity is parasitism. And all Slavs should ban it. I am glad it is dying in Europe already. Stalin should have burn and destroy all churches when he was still alive.

Vedun
28-06-14, 11:46
yes, in narrow sense of the word....


hm, let's see whether there is link between moon and Serians/Zeruiani

could Zeruiani mean Zoryani - people of Zorya (Zorya/Zora = dawn)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zorya

hm, home at Bouyan
homeland of Serbs Boika

in home of Zorya are: Sun and North, West and East winds



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi


Zoraya representative of Zeruiani/Serians maps to Eos godess of dawn - mother of winds...
winds are:
east - Eurus (maps to Russians)
north - Borea (maps to Prussia/Borussia)
west - Zephyrus (maps to Serbs)
and his son Carpus (maps to Croats)
winds are in latin known as Venti (maps to Veneti)

as I explained earlier in this thread, Borea is still in Thrace, Hyperboreans are north of Borea thus Dacians... Hyperboreans are linked to Leto (clearly reflected in tribal names Lithuanians and Latvians (in Serbia Latvia is called Letonija))

now about moon...



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zorya




I edited later... take a look some interesting links...

Totally correct. Here I am giving you the map of 'Hyperborea' (note that people used to call their cities and names as "Bor"; like Branibor (an original name for Brandenburg) for example); which is: a Pine tree (marking a biocenosis of northern Taiga); the Pine tree in English as a word derives from Hunnic (fen, fenyő; penyo; pine) as the land which was still described that way until ca 1771, in Encyclopedia Brittanica

http://shrani.si/f/1E/eG/3qM3GpNt/hyperborea.jpg

Note: "Novogardis" = Novgrad or Novgorod or Novgard (Gard or Gorod was old HyperBorean name for Grad).
It was a place above the rivers: Don ("Tannis fl" above), Dniester, Dnieper, Donava (Danube) and Tula. All those names contain the root DN which means "Don" , Dan (Dien) or "Dawn".


Russians from 13-14th century "AD" (no Vikings), location: ca 20 km from north pole



http://shrani.si/f/G/L1/2UDfIgtb/1.jpg


http://shrani.si/f/1R/8p/26QsmbvF/2.jpg
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2604315/Burial-ground-mystery-human-remains-accidentally-mummified-wearing-copper-masks.html

Note: "historians" paranoically seek the "proof" of Persians, Italians, Greeks, Celts and Germans in current Northern pole of Russia in 14th century AD, without any success...
These people were the Hyperboreans, old Slavs (Russian Veneti).

Regards to Zorya, you mentioned, it was simply one of 3 sisters of the Hyperborean (northern) sky. Her second sister was Vechernica, which means "Evening" star), and 3rd sister was Severnitsa or "Northern (star)", this is the Polaris. Second meaning of Danica or Zorya or Zoritsa or Dana (this is also Irish name for Danu; "Tuatha de Danu"; where Tuatha means "people" - the word remained in Slavic as Detha or Detsa; "children" (ancestry; descendants) of Danica (Danitsa)) was SARASWATI. The transliteration of this word is wrong in Hindi (Hindu); because it derives from Zorya or Zora (Dana) or Surya सूर्य as ZARA-SWATA or Zvetana (Svetana), श्वेतना; Svati; Svata श्वेत ; where Svet is "world" and "white"; hence "white bird Swan.

http://shrani.si/f/17/xI/4B7KjSmF/1349083860pic8.jpg

She is playing on an instrument called Veena ( ВИНА ) which simply derives from ZoryaVina, from this came an occult word "Seraph" or Seraphim in later Bible... And from Zorya or Saraswati came "Sarah", wife of "Abraham"(inverted Brahma(n))... (note that Bible contains old perverted/inverted Slavic & Sanskrit words; this includes "Rephaim, RaphaEL" (Ravanas), Nephilims (Navin from Nav (Niflheim)...), etc, etc
Zorya was a daughter of Lady Lada (lads; "young"; mLada; vLada (government)). Ladoga (Ladyoga; Ladyaga; Yaga Lade; Ladya; "ship") is named after her. The river Lybid - "swan" (in current Ukraine) carries the name of the of prince Kij ("bat, scepter"); where city "Kiev" comes from (pre Riurikan Kniaz; Konyaz; Volhv)...

I hope I have showed you few Hyperborean 'secrets' to you, and reasons why was so important to destroy it under so caled "Christian culture"...
You know (remember) and understand these things, "@how yes no 2".

LeBrok
28-06-14, 17:23
This has 0 to do with "culture" but with parasitism, which was established by Hebrews and Greeks and Romans with their artificial Osirian and Sethanic cults assimilating original elements of foreign nations. Christianity is parasitism. And all Slavs should ban it. I am glad it is dying in Europe already. Stalin should have burn and destroy all churches when he was still alive.Eye for an eye... You are as tolerant in your religion as Christians were to Pagans, but somehow you feel so superior.

Vedun
28-06-14, 17:44
No, I do not. "pagan" is a Latin word as mockery and as a mark for a "farmer, barbar ". It is automatically a word which is opposing everything which is not Abrahamic, so everything which is inferior to the superior Abrahamic religion. Our "religion" did not kill millions of people. This is the work of the people under the Islamic, Christian or Jewish religion...
This is the machine (mafia) which has tentacles all over the military, governmental, economic, educational, resocializing institutions...

gyms
28-06-14, 20:06
The term pagan is from Late Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Late_Latin) paganus (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/paganus), revived during the Renaissance (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renaissance_Latin). Itself deriving from classical Latin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_Latin) pagus (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pagus) which originally meant "region delimited by markers", paganus had also come to mean "of or relating to the countryside", "country dweller", "villager"; by extension, "rustic (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rustic)", "unlearned", "yokel (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/yokel)", "bumpkin (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/bumpkin)"; in Roman military (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_military) jargon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jargon), "non-combantant", "civilian", "unskilled soldier". It is related to pangere (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/pangere) ("to fix", "to fasten") and ultimately comes from Proto-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European) *pag- ("to fix").[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paganism#cite_note-etymonline_pagan-12)

MOESAN
29-06-14, 16:23
I doubt this because of the germanic tongue of the bastanae that seperated the finnic/baltic languages from the dacian/thracian ones. Unless the lithuatians had a germanic language from the peucini, then.......

I found these sites
http://web.fu-berlin.de/phin/phin43/p43t2.htm

and also this site below which indicates a latinized base for its language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Spezia-Rimini_Line

as you can see it belongs fully with a southern italian linguistic group . Its an eastern latin group


text:
Romanian also displays a shift of the cluster /kt/ > /pt/. Examples are opt, 'eight' (cf. Latin octem) and fapt, 'fact' (cf. Latin factum). Unlike /kwa/ > /pa/, /kt/ > /pt/ occurs without exception in Romanian. (Items such as efect, 'effect', are either more recently borrowed from other Romance languages or are neologisms based on Latin.) Items such as coace, 'to cook', which keep the /k [če]/ in most forms, shift to /p/ in the closed environment produced in the past participle copt, 'cooked'. The alternation between /k/ and /p/, then, is phonologically conditioned and is not a change to the root of the word as such. Because it does not internally present any phonological inconsistency, I view this alternation as a separate phenomenon from the /kwa/ > /pa/ items discussed above. A similar phenomenon in Romanian exists with the shift of /sc/ > /şt/ before high vowels (e.g., sciō > ştiu, 'I know'). Here also, words alternate depending on environment, e.g., ceaşcă, 'cup', ceşti, 'cups'

Romanian : concerning the shift*sk- : şc/Sk/>> şt/St/ insome compound words, I think it is not so « irregular »as said : it is a only phonetical (not phonologicalnor morphogicl) phenomenonknown (but rarely enough) in southern breton dialects : in thefew examples of this article about romanian and thracian, şc-(sc-)occurs before back or low vowels, whenşt seems occuringbefore front (palatal) vowels : the process before frontalvowels would be :

/Sk+/i//e/> /Sc/ > /St/ - in« low-vannetais » dialects of breton : skeul(« ladder ») :
/sk2:l/> /Sc2:l//S2:l/ + somesubdialects >/St2:l/
inromanian I can add :
peşte<< "fish")*pesce

-eşti' (suffix« -ish », as -escu)<< *-esci ?
naştere(« tobe born » (birth)) << *nascere
#
roşcat(« reddish »)<< *roscat


sc-seems appearing at explosivebeginnings of words, -şc-atimplosive (weak) central position or finale – but some words leaveme confused as friscă
scara(« stairs ») << *scala
sclav(« slave »)<< *sclava
scăpare(« toescape ») << *scappare<< excappare
friscă(« cream »)<< *frisca


stisconfusing too : /St/ ></st/ evenbetween back or low vowels
poştă(« post »)>< pastă(« paste »)
butseemingly always st-/st/atthe beginning of the words (I have too few words to be sure)

MOESAN
29-06-14, 16:37
some evolutions as *sqw- >> sp- >> sf- could correspond to previous italic languages of N-Balkans pronounced by other ethnies (the reinforcement and spiration of consonnants occurred in magyar (hungarian) - the samnitic or osco-ombrinan phonetic could have been the first italic substratum in Romania -
this traces in the past of romanian italic strata are asbolutely not the proof the genuine dacian or getian was the same - I prefer rely on old scholars works before new evident analysis change the dominant opinion

Zemra
29-06-14, 22:49
Romanian-Albanian

baltă - balt(ovin)ë= lake,puddle, swamp
buză - buzë= lips
boier - bujar= noble
brazdă - brazdë= furrow
brumă - brymë= frost
căciulă - kësulë= cap
căpuşă - këpushë= tick
cătun - katund= village
ceafă - qafë= neck
cioară - sorrë= crow
creier - kre(u)= brain
moş - (i) (mosh-ë)uar= old man
rază - rreze= ray of light
zână - zanë= fairy
viezure - vjedhull= badger
vatră - vatër= hearth


Read "ă" like Albanian "ë" .

There is much more Endri.

Most of them are Albanian loanwords to Romanian.

baltă - balt(ovin)ë= lake,puddle, swamp The Albanian form is native, the Romanian form is either from Albanian or Slavic (if it was from Slavic to Albanian it would have been *bllatë). No idea where you got '(ovin)'

buză - buzë= lips Albanian loanword to Romanian, Slavic forms borrowed it either from Romanian or directly from Albanian, depending on the geography. Cognate to Latin basium 'kiss'.

boier - bujar= noble Slavic loanword

brazdă - brazdë= furrow I'm not aware of this word in Albanian but if it exists, it's Slavic. Romanian z should correspond to Albanian dh in substratum words.

brumă - brymë= frost Latin loanword

căciulă - kësulë= cap Funny word, the original Albanian form was kaçule, which is still in use, then it was borrowed into Romanian as căciulă, then reborrowed into Albanian kësulë.

căpuşă - këpushë= tick Albanian loanword to Romanian, -ushë is a common ending, këp dervies from kap 'to grab'

cătun - katund= village Albanian loanword to Romanian, from Albanian tund 'to shake'

ceafă - qafë= neck Turkish loanword. The Turkish form comes from Greek.

cioară - sorrë= crow Albanian loanword to Romanian, PAlb *štš > Alb. s > Rum. ci and PAlb *rn>Alb. rr > Rum. r .

creier - kre(u)= brain Actually it means leader < kryet (neut.) meaning head. The Albanian form is native, the Romanian form seems to be of Latin origin. So not related.

moş - (i) (mosh-ë)uar= old man Albanian loanword to Romanian, from Albanian moshë 'age'. See also moçëm 'old, ripe'

rază - rreze= ray of light Latin loanword, radium

zână - zanë= fairy Latin Diana, di>z is common in early Albanian changes whether very early Latin or native e.g. gadium > gëzim 'happiness'.

viezure - vjedhull= badger *e>ie, je is an Albanian sound change, thus Albanian loanword to Romanian

vatră - vatër= hearth very early Iranian loanword

Here's one:
mazăre- modhullë = pea Very odd form to be an Albanian loanword to Romanian, but exists in both. This is a substratum word in Romanian.

mihaitzateo
30-06-14, 13:35
Most of them are Albanian loanwords to Romanian.

baltă - balt(ovin)ë= lake,puddle, swamp The Albanian form is native, the Romanian form is either from Albanian or Slavic (if it was from Slavic to Albanian it would have been *bllatë). No idea where you got '(ovin)'

buză - buzë= lips Albanian loanword to Romanian, Slavic forms borrowed it either from Romanian or directly from Albanian, depending on the geography. Cognate to Latin basium 'kiss'.

boier - bujar= noble Slavic loanword

brazdă - brazdë= furrow I'm not aware of this word in Albanian but if it exists, it's Slavic. Romanian z should correspond to Albanian dh in substratum words.

brumă - brymë= frost Latin loanword

căciulă - kësulë= cap Funny word, the original Albanian form was kaçule, which is still in use, then it was borrowed into Romanian as căciulă, then reborrowed into Albanian kësulë.

căpuşă - këpushë= tick Albanian loanword to Romanian, -ushë is a common ending, këp dervies from kap 'to grab'

cătun - katund= village Albanian loanword to Romanian, from Albanian tund 'to shake'

ceafă - qafë= neck Turkish loanword. The Turkish form comes from Greek.

cioară - sorrë= crow Albanian loanword to Romanian, PAlb *štš > Alb. s > Rum. ci and PAlb *rn>Alb. rr > Rum. r .

creier - kre(u)= brain Actually it means leader < kryet (neut.) meaning head. The Albanian form is native, the Romanian form seems to be of Latin origin. So not related.

moş - (i) (mosh-ë)uar= old man Albanian loanword to Romanian, from Albanian moshë 'age'. See also moçëm 'old, ripe'

rază - rreze= ray of light Latin loanword, radium

zână - zanë= fairy Latin Diana, di>z is common in early Albanian changes whether very early Latin or native e.g. gadium > gëzim 'happiness'.

viezure - vjedhull= badger *e>ie, je is an Albanian sound change, thus Albanian loanword to Romanian

vatră - vatër= hearth very early Iranian loanword

Here's one:
mazăre- modhullë = pea Very odd form to be an Albanian loanword to Romanian, but exists in both. This is a substratum word in Romanian.


Lol @albanian loanwords in Romanian.
Romanian language exists in actual form,attested in documents,at least from 600 years ago.
Which is first document written in Albanian? And how Romanian got loanwords from Albanian,from the paid soldiers from Albania,which were used by Romanian boyars?
And I think current Romanian as it is now,was quite same at even 700 AD,after another wave of Slavic migration.

gyms
30-06-14, 17:55
Lol @albanian loanwords in Romanian.
Romanian language exists in actual form,attested in documents,at least from 600 years ago.
Which is first document written in Albanian? And how Romanian got loanwords from Albanian,from the paid soldiers from Albania,which were used by Romanian boyars?
And I think current Romanian as it is now,was quite same at even 700 AD,after another wave of Slavic migration.

Lasa vrajeala domnule!

http://www.mcser.org/journal/index.php/mjss/article/viewFile/203/188

Vedun
30-06-14, 20:47
Bojar (BR) comes from Slavic "Boj", this is also general 'indo european' word... which means "fighter"(killer; soldier; slayer), "fight", hence "Vojna"(Vojnik, Bojnik; soldier in betatism) or War (Voar; Boar (Borba; fight). Vojnik, Vojska, Bojna. Cities were generally called "Bor"; Maribor, Branibor (Brandenburg), they were surrounded with a wall and generally with a castle in the middle. (o)Bramba is "protection" and "boriti" is "to fight".
The transliteration in Rig Vedic Sanskrit was "Bhara" भर (Bor);
bolyars; Bulkyar -(u)Bil; Val (Valkyrie); "to slain, to kill"...

Avars transmuted many "Indo European" words in their own way; I have already explained the word Kniaz; Konyaz, Konig; Khan in this Thread:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26108-Thoughts-from-Klyosov-R1b-data-and-the-IE-problem/page3

mihaitzateo
01-07-14, 13:16
I want to add that Dacians rather seems to have been speaking something more closed to today South Slavic or Balto-Slavic or something between those 2 languages,than to Albanian.
That multitude of Slavic words in Romanian language can not be explained only by the known Slavic migration that took place around 600 AD.
I have found cognates between Romanian and Macedonian dialect of South Slavic,that are not common with other languages and are used for folk terms,for example,Carpati mountains with Karpata - rock from Macedonian South Slavic dialect.
Also it was noticed that were Roman Empire did not conquered Romania/Dacia, zapada which is a word that is cognate with a Slavic term is used for snow,while where Roman Empire conquered Romania, nea is used for snow,which is cognate to Romance languages.

Dacians were allied to Sarmatians which were also on Dacia/Romania lands so I think Albanian is rather closed to Sarmatian language,than to Dacian language.

Sile
01-07-14, 13:33
Bojar (BR) comes from Slavic "Boj", this is also general 'indo european' word... which means "fighter"(killer; soldier; slayer), "fight", hence "Vojna"(Vojnik, Bojnik; soldier in betatism) or War (Voar; Boar (Borba; fight). Vojnik, Vojska, Bojna. Cities were generally called "Bor"; Maribor, Branibor (Brandenburg), they were surrounded with a wall and generally with a castle in the middle. (o)Bramba is "protection" and "boriti" is "to fight".
The transliteration in Rig Vedic Sanskrit was "Bhara" भर (Bor);
bolyars; Bulkyar -(u)Bil; Val (Valkyrie); "to slain, to kill"...

Avars transmuted many "Indo European" words in their own way; I have already explained the word Kniaz; Konyaz, Konig; Khan in this Thread:
http://www.eupedia.com/forum/threads/26108-Thoughts-from-Klyosov-R1b-data-and-the-IE-problem/page3

your Bor is the equal to an English Borough or Italian Borgo..........these are usually small walled villages with artisans working for a nobleman, blacksmiths, silk makers, glass makers, armourers etc ( usually only about 30 to 50 families). My family moved into Borgo Ruga ( Ruga was surname of nobleman ) around 1820 as silk-makers and rope makers and made a very good profitable living, enough to buy a lot of land. Borgo Ruga has been around from the 14th century.

Yes some borough became towns then cities, some did not.

MOESAN
02-07-14, 00:21
your Bor is the equal to an English Borough or Italian Borgo..........these are usually small walled villages with artisans working for a nobleman, blacksmiths, silk makers, glass makers, armourers etc ( usually only about 30 to 50 families). My family moved into Borgo Ruga ( Ruga was surname of nobleman ) around 1820 as silk-makers and rope makers and made a very good profitable living, enough to buy a lot of land. Borgo Ruga has been around from the 14th century.

Yes some borough became towns then cities, some did not.

very possible: it seems MARIBOR was named MARBURG too
by the way I-ve some doubts about the VERDUN automatical changes of V>>B (too magic sometimes)

Vedun
02-07-14, 02:12
your Bor is the equal to an English Borough or Italian Borgo..........these are usually small walled villages with artisans working for a nobleman, blacksmiths, silk makers, glass makers, armourers etc ( usually only about 30 to 50 families). My family moved into Borgo Ruga ( Ruga was surname of nobleman ) around 1820 as silk-makers and rope makers and made a very good profitable living, enough to buy a lot of land. Borgo Ruga has been around from the 14th century.

Yes some borough became towns then cities, some did not.

Boyar; Bauer, Bor; Borean...

http://shrani.si/f/3b/gH/2Vxq6yEL/1.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/2m/10N/1EKgEfMJ/2.jpg

http://shrani.si/f/D/T5/4PHBxEQ1/3.jpg



http://www.scaliger.ru/texts/tartar1.jpg

Zemra
02-07-14, 09:34
Lol @albanian loanwords in Romanian.
Romanian language exists in actual form,attested in documents,at least from 600 years ago.
Which is first document written in Albanian? And how Romanian got loanwords from Albanian,from the paid soldiers from Albania,which were used by Romanian boyars?
And I think current Romanian as it is now,was quite same at even 700 AD,after another wave of Slavic migration.

Linguistics. It's a science so it's not worth using soft arguments againist it, it pretty much crushes them. Just because you don't understand it, it doesn't make it false. But yeah, those are Albanian loanwords into Romanian. Romanian lanaguage and Albanian language have a history of being spoken next to each other before the Slavic migration. This is the answer to 'how' in your question. All langauges evolve over time and this evolution can be traced and reconstructed. The original form of Albanian has been recontructed, called Proto-Albanian. All those words in Albanian in the have an origin in the the proto form of the langauge. When Romanian loaned them, they were not in the original form, they had followed the Albanian evolution. This is how we know they were loanwords.

mihaitzateo
02-07-14, 23:13
Linguistics. It's a science so it's not worth using soft arguments againist it, it pretty much crushes them. Just because you don't understand it, it doesn't make it false. But yeah, those are Albanian loanwords into Romanian. Romanian lanaguage and Albanian language have a history of being spoken next to each other before the Slavic migration. This is the answer to 'how' in your question. All langauges evolve over time and this evolution can be traced and reconstructed. The original form of Albanian has been recontructed, called Proto-Albanian. All those words in Albanian in the have an origin in the the proto form of the langauge. When Romanian loaned them, they were not in the original form, they had followed the Albanian evolution. This is how we know they were loanwords.


Romanians have something that can be easy compared common with South Slavs,words with same pronunciation and meaning.
(lots of words).
Thing is,some of this words are used for basic terms,used in day to day language. As for example the folk term for female sexual organ,common with Slavic.
Now please come with some kind of demonstration that shows how those words (that are closed to Albanian) were borrowed from Albanian in Romanian and where did that happened and when Romanians had contact with Albanians.

Zemra
03-07-14, 14:05
Romanians have something that can be easy compared common with South Slavs,words with same pronunciation and meaning.
(lots of words).
Thing is,some of this words are used for basic terms,used in day to day language. As for example the folk term for female sexual organ,common with Slavic.
Now please come with some kind of demonstration that shows how those words (that are closed to Albanian) were borrowed from Albanian in Romanian and where did that happened and when Romanians had contact with Albanians.

The words in common with Romanian and Slavic are Slavic loanwords. Sometimes Romanian loanwords into Slavic languages. Romanian is a Latin language. Languages spoken next to each other tend to resemble in pronunciation. I can take Basque and Spanish for example, they sound similar, yet Basque is not IE at all.

This is common knowledge among linguists (specialized in Albanian and/or Romanian), but ok. Let's take the example sorra ~ cioara.

1) Albanian 'sorra' derived from PIE *kwers-no meaning 'black'
2) From that evolved to *kwersna because languages evolve. This is a very early stage of Albanian, before the Romans entered the Balkans for the first time.
3) To keep it short, it kept evolving. k was palatalized (*k'swerna) then transformed into ts so we have the form *tswersna. After that it became *tšarsna and later *tšorna. Centuries have passed evolving, Romans have already conquered the Balkans. Note how the middle vowel evolves. This is an evolution attested written in Mysa, the transformation of IE long *e>e>a>o. See for example the evolution of *dhewa>*deva>dava>dova.
4) We know from Latin loanwords *rn>*rr in Albanian, example furnus>furra. /rr/ in Albanian is the same as Spanish /rr/, different from /r/, just FYI. Thus , we also know *tšorna became *tšorra. /tš/ is pronounced like Romanian /ci/
5) Thus *tšorra was loaned into Romanian as *tšora. Romanian did not differentiated between the two different r sounds Albanian had. This was circa 600 AD.
6) The Romanian form evolved into cioara, while the Albanian form into sorra. Romanian evolution of the middle vowel o>oa it's normal. For example Latin porta became Romanian poarta and so on. So is the Albanian evolution into s.

Even though the word was borrowed circa 600 AD, it doesn't mean this is when they first had contact. Romanian and Albanian have been neighbourinos up to at least 600AD.

Now, Romanian is a Latin language and would have not existed in the Balkans had the Romans not brought it. Latin entered the territory today known as Romania in 2nd century, maybe earlier due to trade not military conquering. So let's call this the time Romanian started existing as a languages (although technically it's the circa 5th century when Romanian kinds became a distinct language). From 2nd cetury to at least 7th has had contacts with Albanians, meaning 5 centuries. Or much less if you consider the origin of Romanian as a distinct language in the 5th century. This is when Romanian scholars consider it.

Politics and special cases aside, this is how languages born. There's a mother language, dialects are born in this language. Those dialects evolve and become so different, new languages are born and the cycle goes on. Some die in the process. By politics aside I meant languages like the case of China: it's obvious to linguists there's a shitton of different languages spoken derived from Mother Chinese, yet China refuses to call them different languages and considers them dialects. Another example is the one language called Serbo-Croatian which is called Croatian in Croatia, Serbian in Serbia, Bosnian in Bosnia despite they even use the same dialect as standard. By special cases meant something like the Nicaraguan sign language (can that one have dialects?).

Albanian language (thus the people who speak it as well) were under Latin influence for a long time but did not became Latin speakers. Pretty much everyone under the Roman Empire did though. It happened.

mihaitzateo
03-07-14, 17:55
The words in common with Romanian and Slavic are Slavic loanwords. Sometimes Romanian loanwords into Slavic languages. Romanian is a Latin language. Languages spoken next to each other tend to resemble in pronunciation. I can take Basque and Spanish for example, they sound similar, yet Basque is not IE at all.

This is common knowledge among linguists (specialized in Albanian and/or Romanian), but ok. Let's take the example sorra ~ cioara.

1) Albanian 'sorra' derived from PIE *kwers-no meaning 'black'
2) From that evolved to *kwersna because languages evolve. This is a very early stage of Albanian, before the Romans entered the Balkans for the first time.
3) To keep it short, it kept evolving. k was palatalized (*k'swerna) then transformed into ts so we have the form *tswersna. After that it became *tšarsna and later *tšorna. Centuries have passed evolving, Romans have already conquered the Balkans. Note how the middle vowel evolves. This is an evolution attested written in Mysa, the transformation of IE long *e>e>a>o. See for example the evolution of *dhewa>*deva>dava>dova.
4) We know from Latin loanwords *rn>*rr in Albanian, example furnus>furra. /rr/ in Albanian is the same as Spanish /rr/, different from /r/, just FYI. Thus , we also know *tšorna became *tšorra. /tš/ is pronounced like Romanian /ci/
5) Thus *tšorra was loaned into Romanian as *tšora. Romanian did not differentiated between the two different r sounds Albanian had. This was circa 600 AD.
6) The Romanian form evolved into cioara, while the Albanian form into sorra. Romanian evolution of the middle vowel o>oa it's normal. For example Latin porta became Romanian poarta and so on. So is the Albanian evolution into s.

Even though the word was borrowed circa 600 AD, it doesn't mean this is when they first had contact. Romanian and Albanian have been neighbourinos up to at least 600AD.

Now, Romanian is a Latin language and would have not existed in the Balkans had the Romans not brought it. Latin entered the territory today known as Romania in 2nd century, maybe earlier due to trade not military conquering. So let's call this the time Romanian started existing as a languages (although technically it's the circa 5th century when Romanian kinds became a distinct language). From 2nd cetury to at least 7th has had contacts with Albanians, meaning 5 centuries. Or much less if you consider the origin of Romanian as a distinct language in the 5th century. This is when Romanian scholars consider it.

Politics and special cases aside, this is how languages born. There's a mother language, dialects are born in this language. Those dialects evolve and become so different, new languages are born and the cycle goes on. Some die in the process. By politics aside I meant languages like the case of China: it's obvious to linguists there's a shitton of different languages spoken derived from Mother Chinese, yet China refuses to call them different languages and considers them dialects. Another example is the one language called Serbo-Croatian which is called Croatian in Croatia, Serbian in Serbia, Bosnian in Bosnia despite they even use the same dialect as standard. By special cases meant something like the Nicaraguan sign language (can that one have dialects?).

Albanian language (thus the people who speak it as well) were under Latin influence for a long time but did not became Latin speakers. Pretty much everyone under the Roman Empire did though. It happened.

Romanians,as grammar,is not a Latin language.
Go and study for example about post-fixed definite article,in Romanian.
The only language similar in the are is South Slavic Macedonian language,from this point of view.
Or study about how Romanians are putting the adjective after the substantive which is not found in Latin,neither in any Romance language from today and is neither found in any Balkanic language.
The grammar of Romanian got some unique features in the Indo-European languages.
The theory that Romanians are descendants of Latins/colonists that Roman Empire brought here is first denied very strongly by genetics and after,is denied by the structure and sonority of the language.
I do not agree with the theory that all Romance languages evolved from Latin.
I do not hear any theory which says that for example all Germanic languages evolved from some Germanic tribe language,but I do hear that Germanic language evolved from a proto-Germanic language.
So I think that it existed some kind of proto-Romance language which was spoken across large areas in Europe and this language evolved in Latin,old French,Old Romanian etc ,in various places.
Latin was not preserved,not even in Italy,near Rome.
So coming back to Dacian,I think Dacians were invaders,over the population of Romania,which was speaking some kind of Romance language,but not Latin.

gyms
03-07-14, 20:45
The Romanian-Albanian Connection A good amount of the non-Latin features present in Romanian language have their correspondence in Albanian, not only concerning lexicon but also structure, phraseology and idioms. These characteristics belong to two linguistic periods: the substratum, that is the language spoken by the Vlach before their Romanization ‒which may be the same of Albanian or a similar language‒, and the subsequent close contact between both peoples throughout a long period, mainly regarding their common life-style as shepherds.
Since the controversy about the origin of Albanians is presented by two main theories, one proposing the Illyrian stem and the other the Thracian stem, the advocates of the Daco-Roman myth vehemently support the second possibility, as they cannot deny the strong links between the Vlach and the Albanian peoples in early times. It is not our task to discuss about the origin of Albanians here, and in any case it is irrelevant whether one or the other theory is the right one, because the whole complex of proofs point out in a definitive manner to the area of present-day Albania and surrounding territory as the birthplace of the early Romanians and not the eastern side of the Balkans ‒ even if the Albanians would not be autochthonous but coming from any other place, it is in the area they live today where both peoples met and not elsewhere. A further factor is that there is not any historical record attesting any hypothetic migration of Albanians from Dacia (and there is not any vestige of their presence in that land), while there are many documents proving that the Vlach people lived since the early centuries by the southern Adriatic coastland ‒even before the Roman occupation of Dacia!‒ and as a matter of fact, there are still historic Romanian communities (Aromanians) living there.
Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other. Romanian terms that are similar to Albanian mainly regard primary elements like body parts, names of animals and plants, and words specifically related with the pastoral life. It is significant that such vocabulary in Romanian is not found in Slavic or any other language spoken in the Balkans but only in Albanian. Another interesting fact concerns the very name of the capital city of Romania: Bucureşti, a word that is similar to the Albanian term "bukurisht", having the same meaning.
While the Vlach people were thoroughly Latinized, Albanian language has also received the influence of Latin since early times. A common territory and life-style shared by both peoples have produced the same semantic changes in both languages: a considerable number of Latin terms have undergone identical changes of meaning without parallel in any other tongue, and they cannot have happened just by chance or by any logical reason except because both peoples were living in a common environment and in the same territory.
Among the unusual features present in Romanian that are explainable by a comparison with Albanian we find also the definite article, that in Classic Latin precedes the noun but is enclitic in Romanian and follows the same patterns as in Albanian, and the personal pronoun in accusative case, that contains the suffix ~ne, exactly like in Albanian.
http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm

gyms
03-07-14, 21:15
"The book is a 'must read' for anyone attempting to unravel the sometimes conflicting 'histories' of Romania. And even for Romanians themselves who feel that their school history textbook was infallible and presented the only true history of Romania." - Amazon (customer review)
http://www.ceupress.com/books/html/HistoryAndMythInRomanianConsciousness.html

"The book is a 'must read'!

http://www.scribd.com/doc/48025163/HISTORY-AND-MYTH-IN-ROMANIAN-CONSCIOUSNESS

Zemra
04-07-14, 01:45
Romanians,as grammar,is not a Latin language.
Go and study for example about post-fixed definite article,in Romanian.
The only language similar in the are is South Slavic Macedonian language,from this point of view.
Or study about how Romanians are putting the adjective after the substantive which is not found in Latin,neither in any Romance language from today and is neither found in any Balkanic language.
The grammar of Romanian got some unique features in the Indo-European languages.
The theory that Romanians are descendants of Latins/colonists that Roman Empire brought here is first denied very strongly by genetics and after,is denied by the structure and sonority of the language.
I do not agree with the theory that all Romance languages evolved from Latin.
I do not hear any theory which says that for example all Germanic languages evolved from some Germanic tribe language,but I do hear that Germanic language evolved from a proto-Germanic language.
So I think that it existed some kind of proto-Romance language which was spoken across large areas in Europe and this language evolved in Latin,old French,Old Romanian etc ,in various places.
Latin was not preserved,not even in Italy,near Rome.
So coming back to Dacian,I think Dacians were invaders,over the population of Romania,which was speaking some kind of Romance language,but not Latin.

Wishful thinking. Romanian is a Latin language, but also part of the Balkan Sprachbund. That means it's influenced grammatically by other Balkan languages. In particular the article you're talking about is of Albanian origin as other Slavic languages don't have it. Polish doesn't have articles for example. It's not a Slavic trait. It's Albanian the point of origin of that article. That's why not all Slavic languages have it.

Albanian too puts the adjective after the noun. That's the Balkan Sprachbund. Greek is part of it too, it doesn't mean Romanian is a Hellenic language. http://books.google.com/books?id=3mHaAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA42&dq=romanian++albanian+article&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ENy1U4qrA8PJ8AHq7oHIAg&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=romanian%20%20albanian%20article&f=false

I don't care about genetics, I'm talking about linguistics. Languages spread faster than people. This is how many of them dies as well.

So much for your theory. The language you talk about is Vulgar Latin, also common knowledge. Yes, Latin was not preserved. That's why I meant by evolved in many daughter languages. It evolved. It did not stay the same.

Yeah, Dacians were not Latin speakers at all. They precede the Latins in the Balkans for sure, this is how they were documented by the Ancient Greeks. And the Ancient Greeks make sure to explain they're not Latin people.


Linguistic research has determined that most of the words shared by Romanian and Albanian are not loans from one tongue to the other but have a common origin in the substratum, before than these two languages began to be distinguished from each other.
http://www.imninalu.net/myths-Vlach.htm

Some of them are not loans, I gave the example of modhulla 'pea'. The rest are. They're obviously borrowed from a Dark Age stage of Albanian instead of having followed their own evolution from that Proto-Langauge. Modhulla is an example of having followed an independent evolution from the Proto-Language. Sorra is not. Cioara in Romanian is borrowed. So are the rest of the examples given by the original comment.

mihaitzateo
04-07-14, 13:05
I have not said that the postfixed article is Slavic in origin,I said is also present in same form at the language spoken by South Slavic people called Macedonians.
I also said that Romanian language is Romance but not born from Latin.
And I hardly doubt that putting adjective after substantive is something taken from Albanian,in Romanian,or from Dacian,I think most people in Balkans where some kind of Italic related people,which were conquered/culturally assimilated by Satem speakers (Albanian speakers and Slavic speakers).
And these traits of their language,like postfixed article,adjective after noun and others were retained in various South Slavic dialects and in Albanian.
You can see that Aromanians/Vlachs are present everywhere South of Danube,lots being in Albania,ex-Yugoslavia and so on.
These people I think are remnants of old Italic-related population,who did not got assimilated as language,or as culture,by the Satem speaking people who conquered the area (Dacians and their allies).
I do not agree with these theories and from what I know most Romanians/ Romanian scientists do not agree either.
So,I do not think Dacian language has most influence of Romanian ,neither Latin,neither Slavic.
Since this topic is about Dacian language,the possibility that Dacians were rather speaking something closed to South Slavic should be taken into consideration also.
Anyway,I think is quite clear that Dacians were speaking a Satem language.

Zemra
04-07-14, 15:55
I have not said that the postfixed article is Slavic in origin,I said is also present in same form at the language spoken by South Slavic people called Macedonians.
Albanian is the origin though, spread due to the Balkan sprachbund.


I also said that Romanian language is Romance but not born from Latin.

Maybe you mean Classical Latin vs Vulgar Latin? Classical Latin was the standard language, the one that was supposed to be spoken but not the one common people spoke. People spoke Vulgar Latin and that's the one that Romance languages today have evolved from.


And I hardly doubt that putting adjective after substantive is something taken from Albanian,in Romanian,or from Dacian,I think most people in Balkans where some kind of Italic related people,which were conquered/culturally assimilated by Satem speakers (Albanian speakers and Slavic speakers).

It is Albanian. That's the consensus.


And these traits of their language,like postfixed article,adjective after noun and others were retained in various South Slavic dialects and in Albanian.

Retained? They were not part of Slavic, see Polish, see Russian. Albanian has a different grammar structure.


You can see that Aromanians/Vlachs are present everywhere South of Danube,lots being in Albania,ex-Yugoslavia and so on.
Yes, being a nomad was common in the Dark Ages. Vlachs were nomads too. Would you think they would have lots of Greek loanwords pre-migration if they originated in that part of the Roman Empire? Not later loanwords. The ones in ex-Yugoslavia live in the border with Romania. They did not spread far. Beside, before the Migration most of ex-Yugo spoke Latin (e.g Dalmatian). There are still Romance languages spoken in Croatia, related closely to Italian, or Romanian, depending on who they're closer to.


These people I think are remnants of old Italic-related population,who did not got assimilated as language,or as culture,by the Satem speaking people who conquered the area (Dacians and their allies).

Italic populations did not originate from the Balkans. The language spread with the Roman Empire. Slavs were among the many people who migrated to the Balkans during the Migration Period, but for some reason became the majority of speakers in Eastern Europe, overtaking Baltic and Iranic languages' dominance. Albanian were people who originated in the Balkans, who were not Latinzed, not Slavicized, and not Hellenized.


I do not agree with these theories and from what I know most Romanians/ Romanian scientists do not agree either.
So,I do not think Dacian language has most influence of Romanian ,neither Latin,neither Slavic.
Since this topic is about Dacian language,the possibility that Dacians were rather speaking something closed to South Slavic should be taken into consideration also.
Anyway,I think is quite clear that Dacians were speaking a Satem language.

South Slavic? No. That language was not spoken in the Balkans before the Migration, Dacian was. Or right after the Migration, The Balkans were separated in two linguistic spheres of influence, Hellenic and Latin, with Albanian in the Latin side. If the South Slavic ancestor was spoken in the Balkans pre Migration, it would have loanwords from this time, either from Greek or from Latin because they were very influential (Jirecek line)

Dacians were indeed Satem, and so is Balto-Slavic (with some complications) and Albanian (also complicated but differently). But Indo-European is not separated in two branches Satem and Centum. Let's take a simple example. There's Greek which is Centum and Armenian which is Satem. They're often hypothezised to originate from the same ancestor language Graeco-Armenian. What was Graeco-Armenian then, Satem or Centum? The point is, don't focus too much on Centum/Satem. It matters, but nowhere near as much as you make it. They're not branches of Indo-European.

Ike
04-07-14, 17:18
It is not our task to discuss about the origin of Albanians here, and in any case it is irrelevant whether one or the other theory is the right one, because the whole complex of proofs point out in a definitive manner to the area of present-day Albania and surrounding territory as the birthplace of the early Romanians and not the eastern side of the Balkans ‒ even if the Albanians would not be autochthonous but coming from any other place, it is in the area they live today where both peoples met and not elsewhere.

There were no Albanians in Roman empire. We have no proof of that.

It is equally possible that Albanians came to Bulgaria just 1000 years ago (just as same as the Slavs did 400 years before that).
Then, after Turkish invasion, they fled away (just as same as Slavs did).
Blocked by Slavs at NW they take 2 routes and end up in Romania (Northern branch) and in Albania (Western branch), where they linguistically assimilate remnants of local population (just as same as Slavs did).

Ike
04-07-14, 17:19
Albanian were people who originated in the Balkans, who were not Latinzed, not Slavicized, and not Hellenized.

Except they may have been Albanized.

gyms
04-07-14, 18:07
There were no Albanians in Roman empire. We have no proof of that.

It is equally possible that Albanians came to Bulgaria just 1000 years ago (just as same as the Slavs did 400 years before that).
Then, after Turkish invasion, they fled away (just as same as Slavs did).
Blocked by Slavs at NW they take 2 routes and end up in Romania (Northern branch) and in Albania (Western branch), where they linguistically assimilate remnants of local population (just as same as Slavs did).

Ancient & early medieval references to people of unknown ethnicity[edit (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Origin_of_the_Albanians&action=edit&section=3)]Main article: Albania (name) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albania_(name))


In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybius), mentions a location named Arbon[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-16) or Arbo[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-17) (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Άρβωνα)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-18) that was perhaps an island[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-19) in Liburnia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnia) or another location within Illyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria). Stephanus of Byzantium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanus_of_Byzantium), centuries later, cites Polybius, saying it was a city in Illyria and gives an ethnic name (see below) for its inhabitants. Most likely it is the Croatian island of Rab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rab).



In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy), the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria), drafted a map that shows the city of Albanopolis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanopolis) (located Northeast of Durrës (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs)). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi),[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-20) who lived around this city.



In the 6th century AD, Stephanus of Byzantium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanus_of_Byzantium), in his important geographical dictionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazetteer) entitled Ethnica (Εθνικά),[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-Ethnica.2C_Epitome_page_111-21) mentions a city in Illyria called Arbon (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Αρβών), with its inhabitants called Arbonios (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Αρβώνιος) and Arbonites (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Αρβωνίτης). He cites Polybius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybius)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-Ethnica.2C_Epitome_page_111-21) (he does so many[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-22)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-23) times in ethnica).

Ike
04-07-14, 20:07
Ancient & early medieval references to people of unknown ethnicity

;)



In the 2nd century BC, the History of the World written by Polybius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybius), mentions a location named Arbon[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-16) or Arbo[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-17) (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Άρβωνα)[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-18) that was perhaps an island[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-19) in Liburnia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburnia) or another location within Illyria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria). Stephanus of Byzantium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanus_of_Byzantium), centuries later, cites Polybius, saying it was a city in Illyria and gives an ethnic name (see below) for its inhabitants. Most likely it is the Croatian island of Rab (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rab).

They can't even settle about it's location.


In the 2nd century AD, Ptolemy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ptolemy), the geographer and astronomer from Alexandria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexandria), drafted a map that shows the city of Albanopolis (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanopolis) (located Northeast of Durrës (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Durr%C3%ABs)). Ptolemy also mentions the Illyrian tribe named Albanoi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanoi),[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-20) who lived around this city.
Albanoi were just one among hundreds (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ancient_tribes_in_Illyria) of tribes that lived on Balkans (speculated of Celtic origin). And Albanians don't call themselves like that...


In the 6th century AD, Stephanus of Byzantium (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephanus_of_Byzantium), in his important geographical dictionary (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gazetteer) entitled Ethnica (Εθνικά),[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-Ethnica.2C_Epitome_page_111-21) mentions a city in Illyria called Arbon (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Αρβών), with its inhabitants called Arbonios (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Αρβώνιος) and Arbonites (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Αρβωνίτης). He cites Polybius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polybius)[21] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-Ethnica.2C_Epitome_page_111-21) (he does so many[22] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-22)[23] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Origin_of_the_Albanians#cite_note-23) times in ethnica).

Again, Albanians is what we named that geographic location.