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how yes no 2
13-06-11, 16:11
reason I start this thread is idea that Celtic or celticized tribes of Scordisci/Serdi that lived along Danube in what is now Serbia might have been former tribal identity of Serbs... also I relate both proto-Serbs and proto-Celts to peoples known as Cimmerians and Serians... Welsh people are often considered to be Cimmerians in origin...


there are other sources that dealt with linguistic and cultural similarities between Celtic particulary Welsh people and Serbs...
e.g I have read a magazine story about Ranka Kuic woman of Serb origin who worked as literature professor at an University in UK wrote a book called "Red and White:Serbian-Keltic parallels" ...
besides shared vocabulary, she finds identical motives in epic poetry of old welsh poems and in serbian epic songs (e.g. motive of Cymry choosing freedom and kingdom of heaven before battle with English that cannot be win due to being outnumbered is identical to Serb leader choosing for kingdom of heaven before battle with Turks on Kosovo...both battles are precedded with description of dinner in which knights swear to loyality to the leader... there is fairy named Ravijojla in mythologies of both....there is mountain Tara, river Bojana..... Ranka kuic claims that many old Celtic words have counterparts in serbian language...

so, I wanted to put that on test by looking at some vocabulary of Celtic languages...

I will use the list of proto-Celtic words from the following site
http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/EnglishProtoCelticWordlist.pdf

and try to see whether there are matches in Serbian

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 16:37
well, let's first do first page of vocabulary

obvious cogjnates

english | proto-celtic | serbian
(*curly) hair | *gourjo- | kovrdzava/grgurava (curly) kosa (hair)
(be) quiet | *tauso- | tiho (quiet), tišina (silence)
(night)mare | *moro- | mora
(sea-)harbour | *kaφno- | kopno (coast e.g. when looked from see)
(who/what)soever | *kʷinnako- (??) | ionako
*heap (?) | *tus-tV- (Gall., B), *teus-t- (W, B) | tušta (abundance of something.. e.g. on heap)
story | kastu | kazati (to tell)

less obvious cognjates
*battle-leader |*ioudo-walo- | ioudo -> ljudi = people, thus leader of people not of battle
(hind)quarter (?) | *kʷetr-anī(-) (?) | obviously derived from number 4 - četiri, četvrt (quarter)

Taranis
13-06-11, 16:51
Regarding the term "Cimmerians" and "Cymru" (Wales) are rather unrelated. That does NOT mean that a lot of people in the past did really think the terms were related.

"Cymru" is a contraction from the term "Combrogi" (literally something like "together-homelanders", perhaps more accurately "compatriots"). For comparison:

- the Galatian personal name "Brogitarus"
- the Gaulish tribal name "Allobrogi"
- Breton "Bro" ("country", "borough")
- Welsh "Bro" ("area", "district")

Conversely, during classical Antiquity, authors (Strabo mentions this in his Geography, book 7, chapter 2.2 - though it should be noted that he did not agree with that view, seemingly) considered the Cimmerians and the Cimbri to be the same. A classical case of confusion, I suppose.

Now, the Scordisci were obviously unrelated with the Cimmerians, instead they stemmed from the Celtic incursion into the Pannonian Basin that culiminated in an invasion of the Balkans/Greece and the eventual establishment of the Kingdom of Galatia in Anatolia. The name makes most sense as "Scordus" (name of the Šar mountain at the modern Kosovo/Macedonian border) plus tribal suffix "-isci" (compare "Eravisci", "Taurisci").

Otherwise, regarding any connection between the Serbians and the Scordisci (it should be added, the Scordisci were actually the founders of Belgrade, Serbia's modern capital city, under the name Singidunum), what is obviously problematic here is that the Scordisci were conquered by Rome in the late 2nd century BC, and that Slavic tribes didn't arrive in the area until the wake of the Migrations Period (late 6th century AD). That's a fairly long time, but not too long for oral traditions to not have been preserved.

Taranis
13-06-11, 17:00
well, let's first do first page of vocabulary

obvious cogjnates

english | proto-celtic | serbian
(*curly) hair | *gourjo- | kovrdzava/grgurava (curly) kosa (hair)
(be) quiet | *tauso- | tiho (quiet), tišina (silence)
(night)mare | *moro- | mora
(sea-)harbour | *kaφno- | kopno (coast e.g. when looked from see)
(who/what)soever | *kʷinnako- (??) | ionako
*heap (?) | *tus-tV- (Gall., B), *teus-t- (W, B) | tušta (abundance of something.. e.g. on heap)
story | kastu | kazati (to tell)

less obvious cognjates
*battle-leader |*ioudo-walo- | ioudo -> ljudi = people, thus leader of people not of battle
(hind)quarter (?) | *kʷetr-anī(-) (?) | obviously derived from number 4 - četiri, četvrt (quarter)

Sorry, but most of those are connections that are clearly connected via common Proto-Indo-European origin, not specifically Celtic borrowings into South Slavic (or even just Serbian).

For instance, cognates of "Moro-" clearly also exist in Germanic (as night-"mare") and Italic. It's the same with the word "four", which is prettymuch found in all major branches of Indo-European.

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 17:02
second page -not so much cogjates... or difficult to find them...

english | proto-Celtic | serbian
a third | *trijano- (?) | trećina

less obvious
accuse | *kom-soud-e/o- (?) | sud = court, judgement "kome sude" = the one who is accused

acorn (fruit of oak tree) | *messu | meso (meat) as eatable inner part of usually animals, but sometimes used for fruits as well...

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 17:07
Sorry, but most of those are connections that are clearly connected via common Proto-Indo-European origin, not specifically Celtic borrowings into South Slavic (or even just Serbian).

For instance, cognates of "Moro-" clearly also exist in Germanic (as night-"mare") and Italic. It's the same with the word "four", which is prettymuch found in all major branches of Indo-European.

sure, some words are PIE related... but obviously not all...
e.g. *tauso, *tust, *kaφno, *gourjo-, *kʷinnako-

in conclusion, so far much more cogjates do not come from PIE than the ones that do come (2?)
does that tell you something?

in fact, you can see that word for curly hair *gourjo- is in fact derived from word "gora" (hill) in Slavic languages...
thus, curly hair is logically described as hilly...

I compare to Serbian because I do not speak other Slavic languages, but many cognjates are probably existing also in other Slavic languages (would not bet on *tust, and *kʷinnako- though)

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 17:29
page 3

obvious cognjates

english | proto-celtic | serbian


air | *weto | vetar (wind)
agriculture | *aro | orati (to plow), oranje (plow as verb and noun)
ahead | *(?) φrākoair | preko (across)
all, every | *kʷākʷo | svako


less obvious

allow | *dam-je/o- | dam je ('I give her', as in allowing e.g. marriage of daughter)
against | *writ(i) | protiv
although | *kei, *ki (?) | iako

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 17:40
page 4

english | proto-celtic | serbian


anger | *wi-s- (??) | bes (anger)
anger | *lūto | ljuto (angry)
ant | *morwi- | mrav

Taranis
13-06-11, 17:49
sure, some words are PIE related... but obviously not all...
e.g. *tauso, *tust, *kaφno, *gourjo-, *kʷinnako-

in conclusion, so far much more cogjates do not come from PIE than the ones that do come (2?)
does that tell you something?

in fact, you can see that word for curly hair *gourjo- is in fact derived from word "gora" (hill) in Slavic languages...
thus, curly hair is logically described as hilly...

I compare to Serbian because I do not speak other Slavic languages, but many cognjates are probably existing also in other Slavic languages (would not bet on *tust, and *kʷinnako- though)

Sorry, nope. I took two exsamples that sparked my notice. There's a lot more, and I would not be surprised if all of these words were traced to be via a common PIE connection.

For example:
- "Tri-" as a number word has clearly cognates basically in all other branches of IE.
- "Kwakwo" clearly has cognate in Latin.

It would be critical to verify this via other branches of Slavic, as well as outgroups (Italic languages - ie Latin, other Slavic languages, as well as Baltic as an outgroup. This way, you have a severe observational bias there because you just look at Proto-Celtic and Serbian. Besides, it makes absolutely no sense for words to be borrowings from (modern) Serbian into Proto-Celtic. That is impossible, unless you are considering the possibility time-travelling Serbians. :laughing:

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 18:12
Sorry, nope. I took two exsamples that sparked my notice. There's a lot more, and I would not be surprised if all of these words were traced to be via a common PIE connection.
For example:
- "Tri-" as a number word has clearly cognates basically in all other branches of IE.
- "Kwakwo" clearly has cognate in Latin.


you took 2 PIE examples from much more non-PIE examples...
in total you recognized 4 out of 22 words as PIE... don't you think it is too little to be able to deny cognjates other than PIE?

I would say you are extremely biased....


what about words for plow, ant, air (wind), angry....?
how can they be Slavic-alike and have nothing in common with germanic and italic if there was never some kind of Celtic - Slavic contact...

I see I2 Cimmerians as source of these common words....

according to Bavarian geographer state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs origin from it... according to Seneca Serians lived in Europe where they dared to cross frozen Danube and where they ruled over Scythians, they lived unguarded among Sarmatians in Caspian highlands, they ruled over Red sea, and they lived in Serica which is south Siberia/northwest China where they produced silk....Serica is also an arc from India to china matching spread of Pastun Sarbans...


[369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.
Seneca - Thyestes
27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html


now, from Seneca's statement we see that these Serians (whom following the statement of Bavarian geographer we can identify as proto-Slavs or proto-Serbs) were not Scythians (as they rulled over Scythians in europe), nor Sarmatians (as they lived unguarded from Sarmatians in Caspian highlands)...we know that besides Scythians and Sarmatians only other big historical tribe spreading far in europe and Asia are Cimmerians... we know that Cimmerians are thought to settled Cappadocia and indeed Cappadocians were named white Syrians in antic sources (see Strabo) and there is I2a (marker of south Slavs and of early slavs) island in Cappadocia.... we know that Cymry and Cimbri might also origin from Cimmerians... we know that Thraco-Cimmerian findings match spread of I2a fairly well...(also in Asia minor where island of I2a exist in cappadocia which is where Cimmerians are thought to have settled.) we also know that Scordisci lived around Danube... and that Thracian version of their name is Serdi...


It would be critical to verify this via other branches of Slavic, as well as outgroups (Italic languages - ie Latin, other Slavic languages, as well as Baltic as an outgroup.


This way, you have a severe observational bias there because you just look at Proto-Celtic and Serbian.
nope, I rely on you to identify PIE words...
so far you discovered 4 PIE words out of 22 cognjates...
and based on that you claim that most (??? hm, think you ought to redo kindergarten level of math) of the words are probably PIE


Besides, it makes absolutely no sense for words to be borrowings from (modern) Serbian into Proto-Celtic. That is impossible, unless you are considering the possibility time-travelling Serbians. :laughing:
if that is the game you play - twisting/inventing what others claim and than laughing it out...
than your claim of Germans being invented nation that originates from mix of proto-Slavs and proto-Celts conquered by Swedes, might be correct...

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 18:37
Regarding the term "Cimmerians" and "Cymru" (Wales) are rather unrelated. That does NOT mean that a lot of people in the past did really think the terms were related.

..."Cymru" is a contraction from the term "Combrogi" (literally something like "together-homelanders", perhaps more accurately "compatriots").
don't try to sell me someone's very vague assumption as absolute truth...

Combrogi and Cymry are clearly different words...



Conversely, during classical Antiquity, authors (Strabo mentions this in his Geography, book 7, chapter 2.2 - though it should be noted that he did not agree with that view, seemingly) considered the Cimmerians and the Cimbri to be the same. A classical case of confusion, I suppose.
don't you think that maybe Strabo knew something you do not know?... he lived at times or close to times when that happened...you live almost 2000 years later...


Now, the Scordisci were obviously unrelated with the Cimmerians, instead they stemmed from the Celtic incursion into the Pannonian Basin that culiminated in an invasion of the Balkans/Greece and the eventual establishment of the Kingdom of Galatia in Anatolia.


The name makes most sense as "Scordus" (name of the Šar mountain at the modern Kosovo/Macedonian border) plus tribal suffix "-isci" (compare "Eravisci", "Taurisci"). it is other way around, mountain was named after them...
btw. name of mountain is Scordus in ancient Greek, but "Šar-planina" in Serbian and "Malet e Sharrit" in Albanian, "Shar Dagh" in turkish) ...
which again shows that Scordisci is greek miswriting of celticized version of tribal name Serians

town Serdica is today Sofia
Serians were also written as Serres in antic sources...
ancient Greek authors also speak of long living Serians who dwell upon mount Athos which is nearby


Howbeit, Aristotle writeth, That these Pygmæans live in hollow caves & holes under the ground. For all other matters he reporteth the same that all the rest. Isogonus saith, that certaine Indians named Cyrni, live a hundred and fortie yeeres. The like he thinketh of the Æthhyopian Macrobij, and the Seres: as also of them that dwel upon the mount Athos: and of these last rehearsed, the reason verily is rendered to be thus, because they feed of vipers flesh, and therfore is it that neither lice breed in their heads, nor any other vermine in their cloths, for to hurt and annoy their bodies.
http://penelope.uchicago.edu/holland/pliny7.html

there is even area, placename in north Greece likely derived from the tribal name of Serians in ancient times....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serres

I dare to guess that Serians = Scordisci... I think that in Europe they were just moving along Danube...when pushed on one side they would go along Danube to other side...

and we have Russian primary chronicle that places early Slavs prior to Roman empire expanding in area around Danube thus where Scordisci lived... and we have Bavaria geographer who clearly state origin of Slavs is from large state of Zeruiani (clearly same tribal name as Serians)

point is that there is no reason to suppose that scenario I explained above is impossible....
fair pool of shared words between Slavic and Celtic languages and traditions does indicate a contact and mutual influence.... perhaps not as large contact as both had with Germanic people, but still large enough to leave imprint in vocabularies not shared with other PIE derived languages.... such a contact must have taken place on some geographical location... I suggest it happened in Danubian area where I believe some tribes had mixed Celtic-Slavic material culture...

Taranis
13-06-11, 18:58
don't try to sell me someone's very vague assumption as absolute truth...

Combrogi and Cymry are clearly different words...

It's not a "vague assumption". They're not different word, the former is what the word would have been like in classical Antiquity, the latter is modern Welsh. There's also the related words "Cumberland" (and "Cumbria"), which refer to northwestern England, which was also Brythonic-speaking well into the Medieval Ages.


don't you think that maybe Strabo knew something you do not know?... he lived at times or close to times when that happened...you live almost 2000 years later...

Well, look it up and read the paragraph. It's clear that he said they're unrelated.

Besides, it should be added at the term "Cymru" for the region of Wales was unknown in Antiquity. The main tribes in that area were the Ordovices and the Silures.


it is other way around, mountain was named after them...
btw. name of mountain is Scordus in ancient Greek, but "Šar-planina" in Serbian and "Malet e Sharrit" in Albanian, "Shar Dagh" in turkish) ...
which again shows that Scordisci is greek miswriting of celticized version of tribal name Serians

How come then that the tribal name "Scordisci" is also refered to in that form in Latin sources? How plausible is it for the Romans to keep a Greek misspelling if they first-hand subjugated the Scordisci? Not very.



town Serdica is today Sofia
ancient Greek authors also speak of long living Serians who dwell upon mount Olimpus which is just somewhat further south... there is even area, placename in Greece derived from the tribal name of Serians.... I dare to guess that Serians = Scordisci...
and we have Russian primary chronicle that places early Slavs prior to Roman empire expanding in area around Danube thus where Scordisci lived... and we have Bavaria geographer who clearly state origin of Slavs is from large state of Zeruiani (clearly same tribal name as Serians)

I like to point out - to the nth time at that - that there is no evidence for Slavic languages in the Danube area in Antiquity.

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 19:35
english | proto-Celtic | serbian (slavic)

assemble | *kom-datl-āje/o | komad (piece), komadati (disassemble)
aunt |*mātṛkʷā | mater (mother), matorka (older lady in slang)
ball | *glāwo- (?) | glava (head)
be dark | (*teme-) | taman (dark)
bitter | *gorsti- (?) | gorki
blame | *karjā | karati
blame | *kʷin-u- (?) | kinjiti
blood | *kruwos- (?) | krv
bloody | (*krewa-) | krvav
blunt, short | *mutt | mutav (blunt, mute)
boil | *brenn(j)e/o- (?) | vrenje
bow | (*le(n)k- (?)) | luk


not so obvious cogjates
being | buti | biti (to be), budi (you be)
beetle | *swīlā- (?) | svila (silk)
bed | *leg-jo, *legos | lego ja ( I have lay down to sleep)
benefit |*su-koro | korist
before | *φar(a) | pre
belt | *krisso | kaiš

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 19:55
It's not a "vague assumption". They're not different word, the former is what the word would have been like in classical Antiquity, the latter is modern Welsh. There's also the related words "Cumberland" (and "Cumbria"), which refer to northwestern England, which was also Brythonic-speaking well into the Medieval Ages.
it is assumption...how vague is it... well, even a great assumption from a linguist point of view may still be based on coincidence and completely incorrect ...



Well, look it up and read the paragraph. It's clear that he said they're unrelated.
ok, I misunderstood what you are trying to say....


Besides, it should be added at the term "Cymru" for the region of Wales was unknown in Antiquity. The main tribes in that area were the Ordovices and the Silures.

dunno...that area has lot of type of haplogroup E that origins from Balkan...
S.Byrd argued that it came during Roman empire with thracian soldiers who supposedly settled the area...... I think that one of those tribes might have come from Balkan before...
from that point of view I am curious about albanian comparison with the proto-Celtic words....

a very wild guess, Ordovices might be of same origin as Scordisci...
Scordisci = Sordi + celtic ending
Ordovices = (S)ordi + slavic ending (as in Dregovichs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dregovichs)

but that would imply that Ordovices are also source of Britain I2a2 or R1a, however I do not see UK I2a2 or R1a localization pattern that fit into that... so I do not think it is correct assumption.... in fact, Cymry is part with least R1a in UK, and I2a2 is rare and widely dispersed but also kind of lacking in Wales...

however, link between proto-Celtic and serbian/slavic doesnot have to go via Cymry...



How come then that the tribal name "Scordisci" is also refered to in that form in Latin sources? How plausible is it for the Romans to keep a Greek misspelling if they first-hand subjugated the Scordisci? Not very.
Greeks never subjugated Scordisci... that is complete non-sense...

actually, mispelling was probably Roman, as Serres area in Greece corresponding to mention of long living Serians/Serres is not misspelled... and as Romans are the ones who mispelled Slaveni as Sclaveni...


I like to point out - to the nth time at that - that there is no evidence for Slavic languages in the Danube area in Antiquity.
there is no eveidence of Slavic languages anywhere in Antiquity...
that doesnot mean they did not exist in some form...

Taranis
13-06-11, 21:23
it is assumption...how vague is it... well, even a great assumption from a linguist point of view may still be based on coincidence and completely incorrect ...

Well, both the Welsh and the medieval Cumbrians are (in the latter case, were) Brythonic-speaking peoples.


ok, I misunderstood what you are trying to say....

Well, if you have a copy of Strabo's geography, or access to one online, you can read it there, I mentioned the chapter above.


dunno...that area has lot of type of haplogroup E that origins from Balkan...
S.Byrd argued that it came during Roman empire with thracian soldiers who supposedly settled the area...... I think that one of those tribes might have come from Balkan before...
from that point of view I am curious about albanian comparison with the proto-Celtic words....

There are similarities/shares between Albanian and Celtic, however these must be old connections via PIE, because the cognates obey to Albanian/Celtic sound laws respectively.

In Proto-Celtic, PIE *ǵh yields "g", whereas in Albanian it yields variably dh or d. For example, compare:

Gaulish "Giamos" vs. Albanian "Dhimër" (both mean winter)


a very wild guess, Ordovices might be of same origin as Scordisci...
Scordisci = Sordi + celtic ending
Ordovices = (S)ordi + slavic ending (as in Dregovichs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dregovichs)

Nope. The etymology of "Ordovici" is clearly Celtic:
- Old Irish "Ordd", Scots Gaelic "Òrd" (both mean "hammer")
- "-vici" can be translated very roughly as "Fighters" or "Fierce ones"
- cognate exists in Old Irish as "Fích" ("enmity", "feud")
- there are also Gaulish tribal names with similar names ("Brannovici", "Eburovici", "Lemovici").

In fact, you can also check out the Proto-Celtic dictionary you provided in that link, it has entries on "Ordo-" (hammer) and "wik-" (to fight).


however, link between proto-Celtic and serbian/slavic doesnot have to go via Cymry...

Theoretically, Serbian (or, more broadly, South Slavic) might have inherited Celtic-terms via the local Vulgar Latin spoken on the Balkans. After all, the Scordisci were certainly gradually latinized after their subjugation.

This is theoretically possible, but this would require a much closer scrutiny (I admit that I only glossed superficially through your lists).


Greeks never subjugated Scordisci... that is complete non-sense...

Yes, I also meant the Romans.


actually, mispelling was probably Roman, as Serres area in Greece corresponding to mention of long living Serians/Serres is not misspelled... and as Romans are the ones who mispelled Slaveni as Sclaveni...




there is no eveidence of Slavic languages anywhere in Antiquity...
that doesnot mean they did not exist in some form...

It does not make that much sense to me to assume them in areas in which you have mostly Celtic place names in Antiquity.

Well, I did find two possible links (both in European Sarmatia), actually, but either are very uncertain:

- the "Melanchlaeni" ("black cloaks"). The problem is that their ethnicity could be anything (since the name is obviously a Greek exonym) because information on them is so vague.

- far less ambiguous, the "Savari" mentioned by Ptolemy might be the Severians.

- amongst the other tribes which are not overtly Baltic (Galindae), Germanic (Goths, Bastarnae) or Iranic (Rhoxolani) that are mentioned by Ptolemy in European Sarmatia, any number might be early Slavic, but thus far I haven't found convincing etymologies or names that bear reminiscience with later Slavic names.

Dagne
13-06-11, 21:59
english | proto-Celtic | lithuanian | serbian (slavic)

ball | *glāwo- (?) | galva| glava (head)
be dark | (*teme-) | tamsa| taman (dark)
bitter | *gorsti- (?) | kartus| gorki
blame | *kʷin-u- (?) |kaltė| kinjiti
blood | *kruwos- (?) | kraujas| krv
bloody | (*krewa-) |kruvinas| krvav
bow | (*le(n)k- (?)) |lankas| luk


being | buti | būti| biti (to be), budi (you be)

(*curly) hair | *gourjo- | gauruotas| kovrdzava/grgurava (curly) kosa (hair)
(be) quiet | *tauso- | tyla| tiho (quiet), tišina (silence)

I added some Lith. words that I could recognise ...

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 22:15
breathe (?) | (*dū-) | duh (ghost), dah (breath), disati (breathe), duvati (to blow)
bridge | *brīwā- (?) | brvno (body of tree used as a improvised bridge)
bright | *belo-, beleno- (?) | belo (white)
brother | *brātīr | brat - PIE*
brow | *bruwi- (?) | obrva - PIE*
burn | *teφ- | topiti (melt)
buttocks | *getto- (*gesdo- ??) | guza
by | *φari | pored (by, next to)
car | *kʷol-ō | kola - possibly derived from old words for wagon
care | *maro- (??) | mariti
carpenter's tool | *kantairV- (??) | kantar (weighing tool - scale)
circle | *kuro- (?) | krug
cleft | *bulko-, -ā | pukotina
clothes | *wīs-kā- | veš < PIE *wēs-kā
cloak | *tonakā- (?) | tunika
coal | *goglo | ugalj
cough | *kʷasto | kašalj
counter |*φrit- | protiv
( "counter-strike" - *φrit-gʷani- , and "counter-swear" - *writ-tung-e)
cow | *bou | vo (ox)
cuckoo | *kouko-, kukā | kukavica - obviosuly based on sound bird produces
cultivated (*ploughed) land | *φolkā | polje (field)
curly | *krikso| krivo (not straight)
danger,illness | *gustu | gusto (dense) - used also for difficult situations such as danger, tough illness
dark | *temeno | tama(darkness) , tamno (dark)
daughter | *merkā | ćerka



less obvious:
buds | *bakl- (??) | baklja (torch)
build | *dema- | temelj (foundation of buidling)
chin,cheek | *groudos | grudi (breast - also in males) - common point - part of body that is sticking out...
cloud | *neglo- (??) | magla (fog)
cream | *soimeno- (?) | seme(no) (seed)

how yes no 2
13-06-11, 22:50
english | proto-Celtic | lithuanian | serbian (slavic)

ball | *glāwo- (?) | galva| glava (head)
be dark | (*teme-) | tamsa| taman (dark)
bitter | *gorsti- (?) | kartus| gorki
blame | *kʷin-u- (?) |kaltė| kinjiti
blood | *kruwos- (?) | kraujas| krv
bloody | (*krewa-) |kruvinas| krvav
bow | (*le(n)k- (?)) |lankas| luk


being | buti | būti| biti (to be), budi (you be)

(*curly) hair | *gourjo- | gauruotas| kovrdzava/grgurava (curly) kosa (hair)
(be) quiet | *tauso- | tyla| tiho (quiet), tišina (silence)

I added some Lith. words that I could recognise ...


great Dagne !!

can you keep doing that and also please check proto-Celtic vocabulary for other shared words...
I am curious whether Lithuanian has more or less shared words with proto-Celtic than Serbian/Slavic and what are the words that are shared... as they are probably from older times...

be free in stating words with similar meaning or similar sounds...

one of the key questions is whether these words are PIE or pre-PIE european words....
PIE could have been spread by R1b, R1a or both... or by one of I haplogroups...
we do know that R1b kind of replaced previous population of west Europe, which makes them good candidate for PIE carriers... R1a on other hand has nice continuum to Indo-Iranian areas which makes them another good candidate... in fact, there is clear nice correlation between R1b and kentum languages and R1a and satem languages...



Well, both the Welsh and the medieval Cumbrians are (in the latter case, were) Brythonic-speaking peoples.
I am not denying that....
but developments of nations and languages are weird sometimes....


Well, if you have a copy of Strabo's geography, or access to one online, you can read it there, I mentioned the chapter above.
I can search online for it as it is freely available, but I trust you...



There are similarities/shares between Albanian and Celtic, however these must be old connections via PIE, because the cognates obey to Albanian/Celtic sound laws respectively.

In Proto-Celtic, PIE *ǵh yields "g", whereas in Albanian it yields variably dh or d. For example, compare:

Gaulish "Giamos" vs. Albanian "Dhimër" (both mean winter)


in Slavic

zima = winter



Nope. The etymology of "Ordovici" is clearly Celtic:
- Old Irish "Ordd", Scots Gaelic "Òrd" (both mean "hammer")
- "-vici" can be translated very roughly as "Fighters" or "Fierce ones"
- cognate exists in Old Irish as "Fích" ("enmity", "feud")
- there are also Gaulish tribal names with similar names ("Brannovici", "Eburovici", "Lemovici").
ok


In fact, you can also check out the Proto-Celtic dictionary you provided in that link, it has entries on "Ordo-" (hammer) and "wik-" (to fight).
I am still on letter "d"



Theoretically, Serbian (or, more broadly, South Slavic) might have inherited Celtic-terms via the local Vulgar Latin spoken on the Balkans. After all, the Scordisci were certainly gradually latinized after their subjugation.
that makes sense... but many of the words are not just Serbian, they exist in other Slavic languages...


This is theoretically possible, but this would require a much closer scrutiny (I admit that I only glossed superficially through your lists).


It does not make that much sense to me to assume them in areas in which you have mostly Celtic place names in Antiquity.
well, in past there were also tribes with celtic elite or celticized...
e.g. Illyrian Dalmatians are thought to be at some point Celticized..
also for Scordisci some authors think they were not Celtic originally...




Well, I did find two possible links (both in European Sarmatia), actually, but either are very uncertain: - the "Melanchlaeni" ("black cloaks"). The problem is that their ethnicity could be anything (since the name is obviously a Greek exonym) because information on them is so vague.

- far less ambiguous, the "Savari" mentioned by Ptolemy might be the Severians.
Severians are later one of east Slavic tribes... forefathers of part of north Russians...
in fact Severians just means northeners
as sever = north


- amongst the other tribes which are not overtly Baltic (Galindae), Germanic (Goths, Bastarnae) or Iranic (Rhoxolani) that are mentioned by Ptolemy in European Sarmatia, any number might be early Slavic, but thus far I haven't found convincing etymologies or names that bear reminiscience with later Slavic names.
there are Serbi/Serboi in Asian Sarmatia, north of Alans and next to Amazones
but my point is that that was just a branch of proto-Serbs that match Seneca's Serians who live in Caspian highlands unguarded from Sarmatians, and who later were turkicized and became Sabir people (same location, similar tribal name) and today became Chuvash people (they have legend of partial origin from Sabir people and Dienekes project shows they have autosomal genetics closer to Slavic than to turkic)

also Siraces (most hellenized of all Sarmatians) on Black sea shores are thought to be same as Serboi
another link that that might be truth is a verse from medieval Montenegro high priest king poet Njegos who in a poem self-identify as Sirak in context of sad people left alone, without anyone to help.... in his times Montenegro was surrounded by Turkish teritories... in his time people of Montenegro were Serbs, in fact kind of elite Serbs who refused to be subjugated and continued fighting Turks never surrendering...his Serb self-identication is extremely clear from his poems that are very patriotic and very wise often.... people from Montenegro became separate nation only in 20th century due to communist's propaganda... even now most of them will tell their language is serbian, while their nation is montenegrin...

anyway, my point is that proto-Serbs (proto-slavs) are Serians of Seneca.... because Zeruiani mentioned by Bavarian geographer as people whose state is so big that all Slavs come from it, is clearly same tribal name as Serians, and because I can see arc of Serians from China to India in traces of haplogroup I that in Afghanistan matches quite well spread of Pasthun Sarbans..

https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png



Serians/Serres are in Europe mentioned in north of Greece, around Danube, rulling over scattered Scythians...

my conclusion was that if Serians are not Scythians and not Sarmatians they can from historic tribes only be Cimmerians...Cimmerians are Gomer people and Gomer is forefather of Germanian peoples... but in Cappadocia Cimmerians settled, and Strabo later calls Cappadocians white Syrians (again Serians tribal name), and there is I2 island there... Thraco-Cimmerians in europe also roughly spread along Danube...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Thraco-Cimmerian.png

and so do later Scordisci...
and so do early slavs according to russian primary chronicle...
and so does the i2a2


note that Thraco-Cimmerian findings are also present in part of Hallstat area...
so there was probably some contact or even overlapping between Thraco-Cimmerians and Celts...

so, Gomer might have been forefather of haplogroup I2 (I2b is clear mark of all Germanic tribes except Scandinavians, I2a1 is mark of Sardinians and possibly of Garamantes in north Africa, I2a2 is mark of Slavs especially south slavs) or even of haplogroup I (including Scandinavians) ... this also fits well with my haplogroup I tribal name pattern Swedes/Suebi/Srbi (Serbs)/Sardinians/Sarbans.... I am pretty sure Scordisci/Serdi fit there too but it is question whether they were I1, I2b, I2a1 or I2a2... I2a2 is dominant in Serbia but I am sure it came wirh slavic people as it is only common point in south Slavs and what separates them from surroundings, I1 is higher in Serbia than is surroundings but that could be due to Goths and later Gepids who settled there, I2a1 so far seems not to exist there... I2b1 not specially ellevated...

so, if their tribal name is indeed part of haplogroup I pattern as i propose, Scordisci/Serdi are thus either I1 or I2a2 dominant...

if Scordisci/Serdi were I1, I would expect even larger I1 component in Serbia as pre-Slavic people would be first I1 Scordisci, than I1(+I2b) Goths, than I1 (+I2b) Gepids... so I argue that Scordisci were I2a2 people.....

but if they are I2a2 dominant they are likely same people as later Serbs, which means they retreated up the Danube to Bohemia after being subjugated by Romans... and returned down the Danube in 6th century as Serbs

Veneti would descend from Ripath who is son of Gomer... thus also haplogroup I...so far I2a* we find only on two locations - one matches Adriatic Veneti, and other Britanny Veneti...we do not find correlation of Veneti tribal name with I1...so, if Riphat and Gomer were real people, this is clue that Riphat was I2*, and Gomer probably the same as his son...

thus, I think I have lot of clues pointing in same direction....
but relation to Celtic people is not clear to me...
hence this thread...

how yes no 2
14-06-11, 00:40
english | proto-Celtic |serbian (slavic)
daughter | *genet(t)ā | žena (wife, woman) - Celtic word sounds to me as a demunitive for word woman
day | *din | dan
dead | *marwo | mrtvo
dear | *dreuto- / *drouto-, *drūto | drago
decay |*mrato | mreti (in process of dying)
deceive | *lug | lagati (to lie)
deception | *kloφni- | klopka (trap)
deep | *dubno-, *dubni | duboko
deer | *el-lant-ī- (?), *el-an-ī | jelen
defecate | *kakk-āje/o | kaki(ti) (usually used for small children, babies)
depraved | *mallo | malo (=little)
depth | *dubno-tero | dubina
detach |*skart-āje/o | škartirati (throw away, reject) - could be loan perhaps germanic
dirt; anger | *brokkV- / *brukko-, -ā- (?) | bruka (emberassment - which is in fact a word for dirt event that cause anger)
disgust | *gragni- (?) | grozno (disgusting), gadjenje (disgust), zgroziti se (to become disgusted)
dog | *kwū, *kun | kuče, kuca (small dog), kuna (martel)
door, gate | *dworestu- (?) | dvorište (garden), dveri (gate, door)
double | *dwei-φlo | duplo
dough | *taisto | testo
dove | *kolombo- (or < Lat.?) | golub
drink | *φib-e/o- | piće (drink), piti (to drink) - φ was so far always 'p'
druid |*derwo-wid- (?) | drvo (tree) + vid (vision) - world was seen as a tree...druids were people able to see in the tree

not so obvious:
doctor | *lī(φ)agi- (??) | lekar
dawn | *wāsri | zora
dig | *kʷal-e/o | kal (mud, ground)
ditch | klado | klada (log) - guess due to bugs bunny cartoons but I always imagine ditch behind a log...

how yes no 2
14-06-11, 01:06
to be conitnued.....

in meantime, some Celtic music from Serbia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HEt2XdN_TbQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F0IbWSPUJa8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whnrq5u-2kU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bddw4ZmDRVQ&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MDTlQ9xgtGk&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zTkXvJXKznY

Dagne
14-06-11, 06:49
But then I could be checking with Russian words. This way there may be even more matches. (Though I may not know all russian words in dialects and rarely used ones...) The word with "-" means I did not find a Russian match.



english | proto-Celtic |russian| serbian (slavic)

breathe (?) | (*dū-) | /duh |duh (ghost), dah (breath), diišat| disati (breathe), diišat( to breathe)| duvati (to blow)
bridge | *brīwā- (?)| brevno| brvno (body of tree used as a improvised bridge)
bright | *belo-, beleno- (?) | belii| belo (white)
brother | *brātīr | brat| brat - PIE*
brow | *bruwi- (?) | brovi| obrva - PIE*
burn | *teφ- | topit (sink) | topiti (melt)
- buttocks | *getto- (*gesdo- ??) | guza
- by | *φari | pored (by, next to)
- car | *kʷol-ō | kola - possibly derived from old words for wagon
- care | *maro- (??) | mariti
- carpenter's tool | *kantairV- (??) | kantar (weighing tool - scale)
circle | *kuro- (?) |krug| krug
-cleft | *bulko-, -ā | pukotina
-clothes | *wīs-kā- | veš < PIE *wēs-kā
cloak | *tonakā- (?) |tunika| tunika
coal | *goglo | ugl| ugalj
cough | *kʷasto | kasliat| kašalj
counter |*φrit- | protiv| protiv
( "counter-strike" - *φrit-gʷani- , and "counter-swear" - *writ-tung-e)
cow | *bou | bul| biik| vo (ox)
cuckoo | *kouko-, kukā | kukuška| kukavica - obviosuly based on sound bird produces
cultivated (*ploughed) land | *φolkā | pole| polje (field)
curly | *krikso| krivoj| krivo (not straight)
danger,illness | *gustu | gustoj| gustugusto (dense) - used also for difficult situations such as danger, tough illness
dark | *temeno | tama(darkness) , temno| tamno (dark)
daughter | *merkā | docurka (daugther in diminutive)| ćerka

less obvious:
buds | *bakl- (??) | fakel| baklja (torch)
-build | *dema- | temelj (foundation of buidling)
chin,cheek | *groudos | grudi| grudi (breast - also in males) - common point - part of body that is sticking out...
cloud | *neglo- (??) | mgla| magla (fog)
cream | *soimeno- (?) | semena|seme(no) (seed)

daughter | *genet(t)ā | žena| žena (wife, woman) - Celtic word sounds to me as a demunitive for word woman
day | *din | den| dan
dead | *marwo | mertvii| mrtvo
dear | *dreuto- / *drouto-, *drūto | dorogoi| drago
decay |*mrato | umeret| mreti (in process of dying)
deceive | *lug | lgat| lagati (to lie)
-deception | *kloφni- | klopka (trap)
deep | *dubno-, *dubni | gluboki| duboko
deer | *el-lant-ī- (?), *el-an-ī | olen| jelen
defecate | *kakk-āje/o | kakat| kaki(ti) (usually used for small children, babies)
depraved | *mallo | malii| malo (=little)
depth | *dubno-tero | glubina| dubina
-detach |*skart-āje/o | škartirati (throw away, reject) - could be loan perhaps germanic
-dirt; anger | *brokkV- / *brukko-, -ā- (?) | bruka (emberassment - which is in fact a word for dirt event that cause anger)
disgust | *gragni- (?) | groznii (threatening) grozno (disgusting), gadjenje (disgust), zgroziti se (to become disgusted)
-dog | *kwū, *kun | kuče, kuca (small dog), kuna (martel)
door, gate | *dworestu- (?) | dvor| dvorište (garden), dver| dveri (gate, door)
-double | *dwei-φlo | duplo
dough | *taisto | testo| testo
dove | *kolombo- (or < Lat.?) | golub| golub
drink | *φib-e/o- | piće (drink), pit| piti (to drink) - φ was so far always 'p'
druid |*derwo-wid- (?) | drvo | drevo (tree) + vid| vidit (vision|to see) - world was seen as a tree...druids were people able to see in the tree

not so obvious:
doctor | *lī(φ)agi- (??) | lekar| lekar
dawn | *wāsri | zaria| zora
- dig | *kʷal-e/o| kal (mud, ground)
- ditch | klado | klada (log) - guess due to bugs bunny cartoons but I always imagine ditch behind a log...

zanipolo
14-06-11, 09:41
where is all this going? What are we trying to say ?

Are we saying that the Thraco-celtic tribe the serdi where slavic

or

are we saying that the serbs enriched their vocabulary by introducing vast numbers of celtic words due to missing words ( this seems the true answer) in their own vocabulary. around 400plus AD

The Serdi only existed between 300 - 100 BC, they where assimilated into thracian - roman culture

how yes no 2
14-06-11, 23:03
Dagne, thanks for comparison
Zanipolo, this is thread about parallels in two languages, two cultures, two mythologies...
if you are bothered with this thread go open thread about Albanian-Celtic parallels... should not be too difficult to recognize words that match in form and meaning in proto-Celtic vocabulary.... it would be interesting to compare whether shared words are the same, and to try to perhaps estimate roughly time of influences based on sets of shared words...

let's continue....

first correction

english | celtic | serbian
bed | *leg-jo, *legos | ležaj

(previously I used verb to explain similarity, stupidly didnot remember obvious and quite used word)


now, we can continue:

english | celtic | serbian
dry | krasto | krasta (dried blood on wound, scab, but in fact 'crust' would be proper word if english was more logical)
duty, goal | *adilo | cilj - to recognise this one you need to pronounce it...
dung | *kagVlo- (?) | kaljavo (dirty, muddy)
eagle | *ero-, *eruro | orao
ear | *ausos | uši (this is plural)
eat | *westi, *ed-e/o | jesti (to eat), jede (he,she eats) (already before there was 'w'->'j)
edge, bank | *brū | provalija (chasm)
egg |*owjo- (?) | jaje (again 'w' -> j)
elk (?, CW) | *lono | lane (baby deer)
enclosure | *skorā- (?) | kora (outer layer, crust)
enemy | nāmant | neman (monster, dangerous animal)
evening | *weskʷro-, uskʷro- (??)| veče(r) (evening), uskoro (soon)
excrement | *kakkā | kaka
eye | *okʷlo- | oko
fall | *φesti | pasti (to fall down)
fame | *klewos | čuven PIE
famous |*ati-gnāto | po-znat
fast | *bousano- (??) | brz, brzina (speed), ubrzano (accelerated)
fast (?) | *sφraxto | spretno (skillfully, ably)
father | *tato- (*tata?) | tata, tato (dad, daddy)


less obvious:
dwelling | *ad-rostu- (??) | odrasti (grow-up) - when we try to speak of places where we dwelled first one would be where we did grow up... and e.g. animals dwell on single place while they have youngsters, till they grow up...

dunk | *tumb-e | tumbati (to move or roll stg. around...) - dunk would be to move stg. around in a fluid...

eat | *φit-e/o | pita (pie)

empty | *wāsto | pusto (empty location), pustinja (desert) - but 'w' was so far mapping to 'j' or or 'v' ..though 'v' and 'p' are alike...

ebb | *trag-jo- (Br.), *trāgjo- (Ir.) | trag (trace) - ebb is about declining...when water is declaining there is trace of it.... and traces were important to hunters...so in those time traces would be the key (and almost only) example of something declining with time....

dwelling-place | *adVbV- (??) | udobno (comfortable )

iapetoc
16-06-11, 03:48
sure, some words are PIE related... but obviously not all...
e.g. *tauso, *tust, *kaφno, *gourjo-, *kʷinnako-

in conclusion, so far much more cogjates do not come from PIE than the ones that do come (2?)
does that tell you something?

in fact, you can see that word for curly hair *gourjo- is in fact derived from word "gora" (hill) in Slavic languages...
thus, curly hair is logically described as hilly...

I compare to Serbian because I do not speak other Slavic languages, but many cognjates are probably existing also in other Slavic languages (would not bet on *tust, and *kʷinnako- though)

well that is another connection the Serbian *gurjo- with Greek ζγουρο ορ σγουρο (zguro)
I don't know the origin and the connection, but I can find many if I try,
I don't know if it is Slavic only, wide IE, Greek or Thracian, or PIE, just mention.


i find some coonection also with other words,

well by what I know Scordisci were not Thracian, they were Celtic,
now the case of celtic vocabulary inn Serbian as in many other IE is possible due to IE,

that that makes me curius is another
just to put a problem, a though a debate,
could Celtic and Slavic be the language of I Y-DNA,
I means slavic language in russia couls it be from the existance of I people,
since by I what I have understand I Y-dna is connected with Celts,
Just think if IE language is based in I people and not in R1a and R1b,

well according Greek mythology Celtus live in Dinaric and north
the only tribe that passed east of the serbian aquatic system is the scordisci in today Serbia,
to understand that is like a line that connects Thessaloniki with Dounabis river (Donau) via smalle rivers
Scordisci are mentioned as Celtic not Thracians,

in fact there is a theory that Vrygians were not Thracians but Brigantes,
among the others that consider them Lusatin Burgundy etc

"There is no certain derivation for the name and tribal origin of the Bryges. In 1844, Hermann Müller suggested the name might be related to the same Indo-European root as that of to German (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_language) Berg (mountain) and Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_languages) breg (hill, slope, mountain),[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#cite_note-10) i.e. IE *bʰerǵʰ. It would then be cognate with Western European tribal names such as the Celtic Brigantes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes) and the Germanic Burgundians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burgundians),[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#cite_note-11) and semantically motivated by some aspect of the word meanings 'high, elevated, noble, illustrious'.[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bryges#cite_note-12)!

Celtic tribe named Brigantii is mentioned by Strabo as a sub-tribe of the Vindelici (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vindelicia) in the region of the Alps (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alps)



NOW the only that makes me stop is the pronounce,
simply Celts were centum or Satem????

now the case of celtic connection with Slavic is clearly both IE,
that I don't know is with what genes Celts are connected,
If they are connected with I Y-dna and not that much with R1b then surely origin of Slavic language could be I and not R1a that means that early IE language is the language of I ????????????

zanipolo
17-06-11, 08:46
as per link below , up to year 2009 , zero celtic y-dna ( u-152) found in slav people

http://www.davidkfaux.org/LaTene_Celt_R1b1c10_part2.pdf

I really do not know where you are leading this thread.

how yes no 2
17-06-11, 20:06
Iapetoc,
It is hard to guess who were original IE speakers...
as far as we know genetic and linguistic might have been developing separately....

Zanipolo,

why do you need agenda for every post.... point is to compare two languages and cultures... if others do the similar comparison of Celtic and their languages (e,g, you could make one for Albanian and Celtic) we may get some interesting insights...

so far, it doesnot look to me as very close relation between two languages... but looks enough to propose living in proximity for long periods of time... my guess is that early Slavs (before Roman spread) lived around Danube and in Noricum as written in Russian primary chronicle... and both were in area of influence of Celts...

you do realize that being U152 is not same as being Celt? U-152 is forum level of assumptions about Celtic genetics.....Celts are culture and may have had various genetic linages related to them... U-152 might even not be one of them... e.g. some people think of it as of Germanic branch of R1b... btw. where does your data about zero U-152 in Slavic people come from?

back to vocabulary

fight | *wixtā, *wīk-ā- (?) | bitka (battle), vika (shout)
fill | *φlīn-e/o | puniti (infinitiv, past time would be 'punio')
finger | *bissi- (?) | prst
flat stone | *(φ)likkā- (?) | ploča
flat-fish | *(s)lisd- (??) | riba (fish)- list
flee |*tekk-e/o- (?) | utekao (past time - "had run away")
fleece | *knab-jā- (?) | kanap (rope)
flow | *leja- | lije (to flow down as e.g. rain or spilled fluid does)
foam | *φowen-o- (-ī-) (?) | pena
forehead | *talo | čelo
forest | *kaito | gaj
forest | *φro-sto | hrast (oak)
four- *kʷetru, *kʷetweres (m.), *kʷetesres (f.) | četiri, četvoro (n)...
full | *φlāno | puno
gift | *dāno | dano (given)
gift | *φro-dā- (?) | prodati (to sell), prodano (sold)
give | *dā- | da-ti
go | *(s)teig-e/ogo | stigao (has arrived)
go | *i-tā-(je/o-) (?)| ići, ide
going | *(s)tixtā | stići (arrive - infinitive), stiže (he/she arrives)
grain | *φitu | žito
grandmother |*nanī | nana (older related woman, e.g. sister of grandmother)
grey | *udro- (?) | modro (grayish blue, e.g. as in bruise)
grind |*mela-, *mel-e/o-, *mal-e/o- (?) | melje (he/she grinds), mleti (infinitive)
groan | *stan-je/o- (?), *stono | stenje (he/she groans), stenjati (infinitive)
grove, wood |*kʷristo | hrast (oak tree)




less obvious:
food | *mastjā | mast (fat), meso (meat)
group of mowers | *metelā |metla (broom)

zanipolo
17-06-11, 21:30
you do realize that being U152 is not same as being Celt? U-152 is forum level of assumptions about Celtic genetics.....Celts are culture and may have had various genetic linages related to them... U-152 might even not be one of them... e.g. some people think of it as of Germanic branch of R1b... btw. where does your data about zero U-152 in Slavic people come from?





The link I presented.

The only slavic link , if there is any for the noricum and slovak areas is based on a germanic link through u-106. a link going back to the assimilation with the goths and bastanae north of the black sea.

But as centuries pass, genetics change in areas, take for example the friuli in north east Italy, although speaking an ancient venetic tongue in the bronze age initially, migration by gallia-celtic people from Narbon ( southern France) changed the situation prior to Roman "occupation ) , the border of the Veneti proper in this period was the Livenza river, which is to this day the border of the veneti and the friuli. This incursion, split the veneti from their "brothers" the istrians and the vennonetes ( the original tribe east of the veneti and west of the carni tribe).

Your only link , if there is any is that the celts reached the danube delta on the black sea, there might be a meeting between the sarmatians and the celts then, but I doubt it.

Since I can not find out exactly if the sarmatians or the scythains are slavic then i cannot gaurantee this blacksea link with the celts.

Besides , there is a difference in genetics between the germanic-celts and the gallia-celts.

In the link below, updated from ancient Roman archived map, sorry its in Italain , but its easy to link the names
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4c/Cesare_prima_Gallia_58_a.C._jpg.jpg
The dacians and celts mixed languages ( with the illyrians ) in the Pannonian area.
If you say that dacian has slavic words, well I do not know.

Also, note slavi are not linked with the sarmatians or the balts or the Venedae ( term used for estonians and lithuaians in roman days ) ,

how yes no 2
17-06-11, 22:48
Your only link , if there is any is that the celts reached the danube delta on the black sea, there might be a meeting between the sarmatians and the celts then, but I doubt it.

I don't know, I wouldnot exclude possibillity that I2 people (including I2b, I2a1 and I2a2) are originally Celts...
Celts are claimed to live in Africa, Asia and there is I2 in north Africa and Asia (e.g. in Kurds)... black strain of R1b of Africa is too far a way in past from Celtic R1b to be Celtic in origin... but Garamantes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes) could have been Celtic and I2a1 in origin...

look at this work that places one of I2 subgroups into Celts
http://www.rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGG/article/view/64/79

note that I2b is signature of Germanic tribes (while I1 is more signature of related Scandinavians) and Cimmerians are thought to be Gomer people (Gomer is biblical person from whom in Hebrew tradition Germanic people origin).... note that some Roman historians thought that word German means 'seed' and is used to mark original Celts

I relate I2 with Cimmerians/Serians, and some antic historians consider Cimmerians to be original Celts

Josephus related the Biblical figure Gomer to Galatia (or perhaps to Gaul in general). "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites." Antiquities of the Jews, I:6. Others have related Gomer to Cimmerians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

I do relate ancestors of Serbs to Serians... mainly because Bavarian geographer wrote down that state of Zeruiani (which many interpret as Serbs) was so big that all Slavs come from there....and because there is overlap between I2a2 island in Cappadocia with suggestion that Cimmerians settled there... note that Cappadocians are by Strabo called white Syrians, while Serbs are recorded to origin from white Serbs... I also have match of Zeruiani and Cimmerians with Serians of Seneca...


In that sense, I2a2 can be Slavicized Celts...

that could indicate that Scordisci are ancestors of modern Serb, as well as Serdi who were likely just thracanized part of Scordisci... this poses the question whether Thracians were in fact proto-Slavs... I think that is quite likely...

note that Scordisci lived mixed with illyrians and that modern Serbs settled in desolated lands... origin from Scordisci (who lived mixed with Illyrians) would explain rather large haplogroup E in modern Serbs....

I will repeat here some key points I made recently on thread about Dacian language...
basically, I find it very likely that Thracians and Veneti gave Slavs, and Hyperboreans or Dacians gave Balts....



note that Russian primary chronicle places early Slavs (in times before Roman empire has spread northwards) around Danube, in Thrace and Pannonia, and also in Noricum... that would map to some of Thracian tribes (e.g. Triballi), to Pannonians, Scordisci and Veneti
than pushed by Romans they go to north to Vistula where we find Veneti... and than few centuries later Jordanes states that Slavs are of Venethi race...
note that Russian primary chronicle does not place early Slavs in Dacia...
btw. let me remind you that Thracian cult of Sabazios (Saba Zeus or Serbian Zeus) has same hand gesture that is used by Serbs...

in my theory Veneti are represented in Greek mythology as wind gods - Anemoi/Venti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anemoi) and are proto-Slavs...
I can map east wind god Eurus to tribal names Russians and Thracians, west wind god Zephyros (born in caves of Thrace) to tribal names of Serbs, Serres and Scordisci, and his son Karpus to tribal name of Croats

if Slavs are Veneti, than Balts would be north of Veneti... north most Venti wind God was Borea (Boreans could in fact be about Borussia/Prussia or Belarus...), thus Balts would be people living north of Borea - Hyperboreans, ...


Homer placed Boreas in Thrace, and therefore Hyperborea in his opinion dwelled somewhere to the north of Thracian territory, perhaps Dacia.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperborea

thus, there are clues that Hyperboreans were Dacians...

note that north most Venti wind God Borea is still in Thrace... which is consistent with Russian primary chronicle not placing Slavs in Dacia


Lithuanians and Letonians may derive name from Appolo's and Artemis mother Leto...


Another late source, Aelian, also links Leto with wolves and Hyperboreans:
Wolves are not easily delivered of their young, only after twelve days and twelve nights, for the people of Delos maintain that this was the length of time that it took Leto to travel from the Hyperboreoi to Delos."[21]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto

Lithuanians and Latvians may be Hyperboreans whose tribal name is based on name of Leto...
Hyperborean is not tribal name, it just means north of Boreans, or north of north most Venti (I think Venti map to Veneti, and to proto-Slavs)

Leto may have the same Lycian origin as "Leda", meaning "woman/wife" in the ancient Lycian language.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leto


if I2a2 are Slavicized Celts, than Serbo-Croat language ought to have much more words related to Celtic than other Balto-Slavic languages... if however, there was general mixing of Slavic and Celtic tribes than the words I find should be numerous and shared among all Slavic people.... if Slavs didnot have direct contact with Celts than almost all found words should be IE in origin...


btw. we know from Strabo that Scordisci were not Illyrians, but lived mixed with them and were alied to them...
this kinds of relationships would in Greek mythology go as daughter, wife, son, grandson - if being subjugated by male tribe) or as sons and grandsons; if there is large admixture mix than sons, if there is less admixture than grandsons and even less grandgrandsons..

Illyrus

Sons
Encheleus (Εγχελέα) of the Enchelaeae
Autarieus (Αυταριέα) of the Autariates
Dardanus (Δάρδανον) of the Dardani
Maedus (Μαίδον)
Taulas (Ταυλαντά) of the Taulantii
Perrhaebus (Περραιβόν) of the Perrhaebi
[edit]Daughters
Partho (Πάρθω) of the Partheni
Daortho (Δαορθώ) of the Daors
Dassaro (Δασσαρώ) of the Dassaretae
[edit]Grandsons
Pannonius or Paeon (son of Autarieus) of the Pannonians
[edit]Greatgrandsons
Scordiscus (son of Pannonius) of the Scordisci
Triballus (son of Pannonius) of the Triballi
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

this means that E-V13 Illyrians that assimilated previous inhabitants (such as R1b and R1a) gave tribes such as
Enchelaeae, Autariates, Dardani, Maedus (Μαίδον), Taulantii and Perrhaebi
those that were assimilated in other people gave tribes such as Partheni, Daors and Dassaretae
that they had like 1/4 in grandson tribes in this case Pannonians
and 1/4 - 1/8 in Greatgrandsons (in this case Scordisci and Triballi)

this fits into roughly 1/5 of E-V13 in Serbs.. note that E-V13 in Serbs is not related to historical times and Albanians because there was never so large admixture of Albanians and E-V13 is rather homogenous in Serbs - around 20% even in Bosnia and Vojvodina) - thus it is older substratum... the homogenous spread indicates that big part of E-V13 went with them to north and came back with them... e.g. compare this to I2a2 in Croatia that has large regional variations from extreme values in Pagania areas, to around zero in Kaikavian speaking areas......which indicates more recent admixture..

Scordisci gave Serdi, and Tribali is name used by Byzantine authors as alternative for Serbs...
this indicates that those were proto-Serb tribes... I2a in origin, E-V13 due to mix with Illyrians and R1a (around 15%) due to Thracian (Balto-Slavic influence) .... I think that R1b (around 5%- 10% in Serbs) and part of E-V13 is in Serbs largely related to Vlachs...
and there is some influence of ancient Greeks in shape of J2 (up to 10%)

Scordisci and Triballi origin from Pannonians, and Pannonians from Autoriates...
could Croats tribal name come from Autoriates?

few preserved Illyrian words match Slavic much better than Albanian because they probably come from Roman Illyria (Dalmatia and Bosnia) that was settled by Pannonians (according to Strabo) and not by Illyrians proper (Albania and Montnegro)...

zanipolo
18-06-11, 01:47
I don't know, I wouldnot exclude possibillity that I2 people (including I2b, I2a1 and I2a2) are originally Celts...
Celts are claimed to live in Africa, Asia and there is I2 in north Africa and Asia (e.g. in Kurds)... black strain of R1b of Africa is too far a way in past from Celtic R1b to be Celtic in origin... but Garamantes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garamantes) could have been Celtic and I2a1 in origin...

look at this work that places one of I2 subgroups into Celts
http://www.rjgg.molgen.org/index.php/RJGG/article/view/64/79

note that I2b is signature of Germanic tribes (while I1 is more signature of related Scandinavians) and Cimmerians are thought to be Gomer people (Gomer is biblical person from whom in Hebrew tradition Germanic people origin).... note that some Roman historians thought that word German means 'seed' and is used to mark original Celts

I relate I2 with Cimmerians/Serians, and some antic historians consider Cimmerians to be original Celts

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia

I do relate ancestors of Serbs to Serians... mainly because Bavarian geographer wrote down that state of Zeruiani (which many interpret as Serbs) was so big that all Slavs come from there....and because there is overlap between I2a2 island in Cappadocia with suggestion that Cimmerians settled there... note that Cappadocians are by Strabo called white Syrians, while Serbs are recorded to origin from white Serbs... I also have match of Zeruiani and Cimmerians with Serians of Seneca...


In that sense, I2a2 can be Slavicized Celts...

that could indicate that Scordisci are ancestors of modern Serb, as well as Serdi who were likely just thracanized part of Scordisci... this poses the question whether Thracians were in fact proto-Slavs... I think that is quite likely...

note that Scordisci lived mixed with illyrians and that modern Serbs settled in desolated lands... origin from Scordisci (who lived mixed with Illyrians) would explain rather large haplogroup E in modern Serbs....

I will repeat here some key points I made recently on thread about Dacian language...
basically, I find it very likely that Thracians and Veneti gave Slavs, and Hyperboreans or Dacians gave Balts....





if I2a2 are Slavicized Celts, than Serbo-Croat language ought to have much more words related to Celtic than other Balto-Slavic languages... if however, there was general mixing of Slavic and Celtic tribes than the words I find should be numerous and shared among all Slavic people.... if Slavs didnot have direct contact with Celts than almost all found words should be IE in origin...


btw. we know from Strabo that Scordisci were not Illyrians, but lived mixed with them and were alied to them...
this kinds of relationships would in Greek mythology go as daughter, wife, son, grandson - if being subjugated by male tribe) or as sons and grandsons; if there is large admixture mix than sons, if there is less admixture than grandsons and even less grandgrandsons..

Illyrus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius

this means that E-V13 Illyrians that assimilated previous inhabitants (such as R1b and R1a) gave tribes such as
Enchelaeae, Autariates, Dardani, Maedus (Μαίδον), Taulantii and Perrhaebi
those that were assimilated in other people gave tribes such as Partheni, Daors and Dassaretae
that they had like 1/4 in grandson tribes in this case Pannonians
and 1/4 - 1/8 in Greatgrandsons (in this case Scordisci and Triballi)

this fits into roughly 1/5 of E-V13 in Serbs.. note that E-V13 in Serbs is not related to historical times and Albanians because there was never so large admixture of Albanians and E-V13 is rather homogenous in Serbs - around 20% even in Bosnia and Vojvodina) - thus it is older substratum... the homogenous spread indicates that big part of E-V13 went with them to north and came back with them... e.g. compare this to I2a2 in Croatia that has large regional variations from extreme values in Pagania areas, to around zero in Kaikavian speaking areas......which indicates more recent admixture..

Scordisci gave Serdi, and Tribali is name used by Byzantine authors as alternative for Serbs...
this indicates that those were proto-Serb tribes... I2a in origin, E-V13 due to mix with Illyrians and R1a (around 15%) due to Thracian (Balto-Slavic influence) .... I think that R1b (around 5%- 10% in Serbs) and part of E-V13 is in Serbs largely related to Vlachs...
and there is some influence of ancient Greeks in shape of J2 (up to 10%)

Scordisci and Triballi origin from Pannonians, and Pannonians from Autoriates...
could Croats tribal name come from Autoriates?

few preserved Illyrian words match Slavic much better than Albanian because they probably come from Roman Illyria (Dalmatia and Bosnia) that was settled by Pannonians (according to Strabo) and not by Illyrians proper (Albania and Montnegro)...

I always found E-V13 to be albanian ,doric and ionian islands, it was never in the northern part of illyria. When I say albanian I am talking area not people. so it must be either doric, moesian or vlach.

So , since rome did not neighbour serbs in its entire history ( not counting byzantine empire), we can safely say, the serbs borrowed these dacian-celtic words when they migrated with the goths........or are you saying that the celts mixed with the slavs on the black sea and brought these slavic words inland into pannonia.

I say this because the venetic language spoken by the carni and catali who knew also the celtic language lived in noricum and as far as the danube.
This is fact due to the amber road, running from the aestii tribe on the baltic sea, sold to germanic people inland who sold it to the carni who sold it to the veneti.
The veneti made protective amulets engraved with an eye and worn only by the women and children ( spiritual, mystic beliefs) discoverd in 2010 in este veneto.

This southern "illyrian" E-V13 fits in well with the serbs migrated route running from the southern balkans northward to pannonia
http://web.me.com/brewpe/Adam_BrouwerDNA/Adams_Haplogroup.html

Since historically, Byzantine dealt with slavic slaves from Azov ( called Tanaris in byzantine) it indicates, these slave dealing brought the slavs into thrace, these slavs eventually became servians ( later serbians). this is know fact also in the genoese and venetian arcives of the early middle ages as they too dealt and bought slaves from Tana ( venetian name) with permission from the byzantines. Venetian slavery was outlawed in 1435.

Note that E3b1a2-V13 represents 85% of the parent E3b1a-M78 clade which has greatest concentration in pristina and pec

iapetoc
18-06-11, 02:56
I always found E-V13 to be albanian ,doric and ionian islands, it was never in the northern part of illyria. When I say albanian I am talking area not people. so it must be either doric, moesian or vlach.

So , since rome did not neighbour serbs in its entire history ( not counting byzantine empire), we can safely say, the serbs borrowed these dacian-celtic words when they migrated with the goths........or are you saying that the celts mixed with the slavs on the black sea and brought these slavic words inland into pannonia.


I say this because the venetic language spoken by the carni and catali who knew also the celtic language lived in noricum and as far as the danube.
This is fact due to the amber road, running from the aestii tribe on the baltic sea, sold to germanic people inland who sold it to the carni who sold it to the veneti.
The veneti made protective amulets engraved with an eye and worn only by the women and children ( spiritual, mystic beliefs) discoverd in 2010 in este veneto.

This southern "illyrian" E-V13 fits in well with the serbs migrated route running from the southern balkans northward to pannonia
http://web.me.com/brewpe/Adam_BrouwerDNA/Adams_Haplogroup.html

Since historically, Byzantine dealt with slavic slaves from Azov ( called Tanaris in byzantine) it indicates, these slave dealing brought the slavs into thrace, these slavs eventually became servians ( later serbians). this is know fact also in the genoese and venetian arcives of the early middle ages as they too dealt and bought slaves from Tana ( venetian name) with permission from the byzantines. Venetian slavery was outlawed in 1435.

Note that E3b1a2-V13 represents 85% of the parent E3b1a-M78 clade which has greatest concentration in pristina and pec




Well search for the E-v13 in North peloponese area, it is according some genetist more ancient than the Kossovo one,
and both are connected with Cyprus,
some family cases of E-v13 could mean that Cadmeians were E-V13,

Note that in North peloponese E-V13 is >44%

that is beacause Doric who were not E-V13 pushed in North (achains, alternate for myceneans, who were expeled by Dorians by Fight and Hate,)

in fact the connection of Doric with E-V13 is Wrong,
the only which can connected is the Cadmeians and the Achaians, or even Arcado-Cypriots

in some pure Doric Areas Like rodos and west Crete E-V13 drops drammatically.


Doric were Thessalians. means connected with Driopes IE people.

zanipolo
18-06-11, 03:56
Well search for the E-v13 in North peloponese area, it is according some genetist more ancient than the Kossovo one,
and both are connected with Cyprus,
some family cases of E-v13 could mean that Cadmeians were E-V13,

Note that in North peloponese E-V13 is >44%

that is beacause Doric who were not E-V13 pushed in North (achains, alternate for myceneans, who were expeled by Dorians by Fight and Hate,)

in fact the connection of Doric with E-V13 is Wrong,
the only which can connected is the Cadmeians and the Achaians, or even Arcado-Cypriots

in some pure Doric Areas Like rodos and west Crete E-V13 drops drammatically.


Doric were Thessalians. means connected with Driopes IE people.

ok

But it still means that the serbs must have entered the balkans from the south and not the north initially as the E-v13 is very high %, unless it came from the moesians.

Still , it also means that the celtic - slavic words are from a dacian- celtic mix first and not directly from celt to slav.

then again the moesian where pushed in a south west direction by the dacians or not ?

iapetoc
18-06-11, 14:19
ok

But it still means that the serbs must have entered the balkans from the south and not the north initially as the E-v13 is very high %, unless it came from the moesians.

Still , it also means that the celtic - slavic words are from a dacian- celtic mix first and not directly from celt to slav.

then again the moesian where pushed in a south west direction by the dacians or not ?


Moesians are connected with Mysians, that means Thracians not Daci,

the case of Daci is not that simple
for example Getae are connected with Dacia, Slavic are connected with Dacia,
[Δακια (Dagestan) is also a place in Caucasus next to Albania, Avars, coincidence? or it is connected with the Avars and Cumans in Hungary? well that theory is not value anymore due to linguistic and some other evidences.]

the case of Zalmoxis and Kongaionion (paradise, holy place) is like Kunge the Holy place the temple of Arvanites, they name all monasteries Kungi, and aionion is greek eternal, it is connected with a myth on far North of the eternity mountain,
in fact the suliotes name their sacred place Κουγκι Kugi.
it is also connected with Dagne posts, which I have to answer,
The connection of Daci with pure modern Slavic is wrong, many of their myths are connected with Greece and minor Asia, as also King names and some toponyms, alternate name is Getae,

the reconstructed dacian language we dont know how exactly it is but when i answer dagne surely you will recon many Greek elements, and if a good Albanian enters surely many elements would be connected,

now the case of Cadmeians means that some E-v13 was pushed North,
in Makedonian times could be also, as in Byzantine and in roman,
another E-V13 entered from sicily and Italy at Kastrioti time with Normands sending Italians to protect or invade land,

The serbin E-V13 is also from south,
the 1 must all realize is that E-V13 could be Greek-Pelasgian people who moved there, at romano byzantine times, and later with entrance of Slavic entered Moesia or stayed,
with time that mountain people accepted either the Serb either the Albanian nationality,
to understand Zanipolo an E-V13 of Kossovo or Nis or Fyrom if it is Orthodox is Serb or Fyromian (MaCedonian)
if it is muslim is surely Albanian,
if he lives in Moesia is Uniates who became catholics, more west of Kossovo E-V13 are Catholics
E-V13 south are orthodox as E-V13 in North peloponese,

according Historians before Kastrioti Serbs and Albanians many times unite against Greeks of Epirus,
also many times Albanians were allies with Normands and many times Enemies,

later the Kastrioti and the union of Orthodox and Catholics against Turks, as also the move of Hunjadi (Ουνιαδης) Huniade (what ever is written) and the move of 2 big Families from Moesia to Skodra is the major unification movement that unite Albanians,
In Kastrioti History we see Serbs from Montenegrin that supported him
the point is That Vallavan pasa and turks slowly won and majority of Albanians became Muslim and each moesian wanted to be Turk, was moved to that land.
if you search the story of after Kastrioti tribes you will understand,

E-V13 were not Albanians not Serbs Not Even Greeks, they started from Greece and spread, mostly North, they were romaniazed or thracianized etc,
later they enter the today ethnicities,

for example 1 Greeco-Thracian tribe still names the Serbs Triboli,
their inner name is Srpski (maybe i write it wrong) Srpcka
the Serbia is an exonym of Centum people who can pronounce that many non vowel word.

now the case of Celtic or Slavic,
simply I say that scordisci = pure Celtic
Pannoni = Celto Thracian
Tribali = pure thracian
Srpcki = pure Slavic
choose and pick
simply that Celto thracian culture became a new nation with the unification movement of Slavic entrance at 6th century, and gain literature and written speech with Cyrillic of Moravia,
the same with Albanians, with 1 difference,
Maniakis manage to organise them to an army,
later Kastrioti manage to unite all the sub minorities, and vallavan pasa also
Albanians Cristians who lost by Alban-Turks Muslim, But the winners took the symbol and the story of the loser, Albanians are 75% muslim but their National hero is a Christian who according many searchers was Geg, according others Fyromian-Slavic Macedonian, and according others Greek Makedonia, Vallavan pasa is not their national Hero.

simply due to religion and last wars the wounds are always open.

to understand the problem try with Bosnia,
Bosnians are same with Serbs ( a big %), but the religion change culture and they became a new nation, !!!!!!!!!!! in 2000 !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

if you ask an Albanian Nationalist he will tell you they are Albanians,
if you Ask a Serbian he will tell you they are muslim Serbs,
If you ask a Turk, he will say they are Turks,
if you ask a Croatian he will Say they they are Croats,
If you ask a Bosnian, he will say that they are the ancient Illyrians pure, that suffered from Serbs Croats and Turks,
maybe you will listen that they are the only true Illyrians, and Illyrians spoke Slavo-Turkish

iapetoc
21-06-11, 04:16
as per link below , up to year 2009 , zero celtic y-dna ( u-152) found in slav people

http://www.davidkfaux.org/LaTene_Celt_R1b1c10_part2.pdf

I really do not know where you are leading this thread.


then ok my question is answered, but truth is i am not that full,
why in my mind is nailed the idea of IE be the language of I people,
with Logic I accept R1b and R1a but with heart no,
whatever, ty zanipolo.

how yes no 2
22-06-11, 00:49
for example 1 Greeco-Thracian tribe still names the Serbs Triboli,
their inner name is Srpski (maybe i write it wrong) Srpcka
the Serbia is an exonym of Centum people who can pronounce that many non vowel word.

Serbia is not exonym.... Srpcka is not correct...

in Serbian language:

people/tribe: Srbi (Serbs)
land: Srbija (serbia)
language: srpski jezik (serbian language or language that belongs to Serbs)

from "Srbi"to "srpski" is about grammar rule that changes 'b'to 'p' in certain cases...

note suffix "-ski" added to root word "Srb" and grammar rule that changes 'b'to 'p' when it is in front of 's'as it is hard to pronounce it otherwise....the rule is called "Assimilation (linguistics)" in serbian is "jednacenje po zvucnosti" (sound equalization)

essentially there are two group of consonants let's call them "loud" and "silent"

loud - b, g , d, z, ž, đ, dž
silent - p, k, t, ć, š, s ,č, f, h, c

in a word that has two consecutive consonants, first one will go to its pair from other group in order to be of same type as second consonant..... it sounds complicated as a rule, but it is natural way to pronounce subsequent consonants in same category...

example of rule
vrabac (sparrow) -> vrab(a)ci (adding "i" for plural and losing 'a' according to another rule) -> vrapci (sparrows) (loud 'b' goes into its pair silent 'p' because next consonant 'c' is silent



in Bosnia rebel Serbs have named their country in 90s "Srpska" as in "Serbian/ belonging to Serbs"
root word is Srb, adding is "-ska" to denote ownership over female noun "republika" (republic) and 'srbska" has two consecutive consonants 'bs' where secound one is from silent group so the first one goes to silent group as well:
'bs'->'ps' thus 'srbska' -> 'srpska'




in language

now the case of Celtic or Slavic,
simply I say that scordisci = pure Celtic
Pannoni = Celto Thracian
Tribali = pure thracian
Srpcki = pure Slavic
choose and pick

there is wide agreement among Slavic ethnologists and linguists that tribal name "Srbi" (Serbs) is not a word of slavic origin...

personally I find word "Srp" which means "sickle" a possible slavic root.... I see that google translate in fact translate "srp" as "crescent" as well... think it was a bit more arhaic usage.... so probably "srp" is about shape of crescent and sickle... e.g. as the ones in Serbian coat of arms

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Coat_of_arms_of_Serbia_small_%282004_-_2010%29.svg/330px-Coat_of_arms_of_Serbia_small_%282004_-_2010%29.svg.png

I do not think coat of arms is copy of Byzantine Paleologi dinasty one with 4 'B' instead of sickles ...
(King of Kings, Ruling Over Rulers (Βασιλεὺς Βασιλέων Βασιλεύων Βασιλευόντων/Βασιλεῦσι, Basileus Basileon Basileuon Basileuonton/Basileusi).)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Palaiologos-Dynasty.svg/120px-Palaiologos-Dynasty.svg.png

Paleologi dinasty origin from theme of Macedonia that was heavily settled by Serbs at the time... so, the coat of arms pattern may have travelled other way around..... anyway key difference is in "sickle" vs. letter 'B'

look at coat of arms of 'house of Mrnjavcevic" Serbian nobles from Macedonia from 13th and 14th century

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Herb_mrnjavcevici.jpg

btw. the Celtic cross is similar pattern of 4 "sickles" around a cross

in simple version sickles are turned other way around - towards interior
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/CelticCross.svg/100px-CelticCross.svg.png

in more complex versions you can also see inner sickles oriented towards exterior that make cross - and those inner sickles are identical as the one on coat of arms of house of Mrnjavcevici given above...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Monasterboice_12.jpg/400px-Monasterboice_12.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ad/Gaelic_Athletic_Association.png

iapetoc
22-06-11, 02:10
How yes no many times you ask the connection of Serbian and Crotians,

in greece it is difficult 2 languages,
1 is turkish due a strange moves with tongue,
2 is south slavic cause they use little vowel,

the serbs have a history that entered from danube, move down to bardar, move west to bosna and montenegro, move east to moesia, and again move north to voivodina, when ever another population enter balkans Serbs move east-west north south, their limits are from montenegro to romania and from greece to Hungary
maybe you are right, but since it is not an exonym but an inner name, then the cases of the other names like scordiski Pannoni and tribaldi means that they are exonyms, then the SRB must be either from 1 and only 1 wider family, (only celtic, or only Thracian or only Slavic)

how yes no 2
22-06-11, 02:22
btw. note the sickle/crescent as horns on helmets of Sherden/sherdana sea peoples
whose tribal name is origin for place name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples18.jpg
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples17.jpg
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples14.jpg

now, compare Sherdana with non-Greek names for Scordus mountain , and it is clear that Scordisci is Greek exonym of Celtic version of some tribal name probably of Shardana....

Scordus in Greek
Šar planina (Šar mountain) in south Slavic
Shar Dagh in Ottoman Turkish
Malet e Sharrit in Albanian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains

in fact isn't turkish or Asia minor word Shar Dagh almost the same as Shardana?


Josephus related the Biblical figure Gomer to Galatia (or perhaps to Gaul in general). "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites." Antiquities of the Jews, I:6. Others have related Gomer to Cimmerians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia


Josephus placed Gomer and the "Gomerites" in Anatolian Galatia: "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites."[3] Galatia in fact takes its name from the ancient Gauls (Celts) who settled there. However, the later Christian writer Hippolytus of Rome in c. 234 assigned Gomer as the ancestor of the Cappadocians, neighbours of the Galatians.[4] Jerome (c. 390) and Isidore of Seville (c. 600) followed Josephus' identification of Gomer with the Galatians, Gauls and Celts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer

look at Thraco-Cimmerians findings in Europe
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

I2a spread, west linear potery spread, Celts, early Slavs spread... same directions and locations... I think Slavs are born out of east Celtic state... State of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... Seneca's Serians in Europe are mentioned in relation to Danube (daring to cross frozen Danube on feet) and in relation to Scythians (rulling over them)... Scythians are R1a, thus proto-Slavs, so Serians/Zeruiani can be only I2a2... which is haplogroup dominant in Serbs....

note Sardinians being similar tribal name to Scordisci and Sardana and being related to I2a1 haplogroup...


compare Šar planina,Shar Dagh, and Malet e Sharrit with tribal name Serians/Serres...

to Sherdana related Lycians (whose several later rulers were called Sarpe-don) are Lukka sea peoples... note that Asia minor is area of influence of Cimmerians... note that some historians think that Cimmerians were original Celts...that in Cappadocia where Cimmerians settled, Strabo finds white Syrians and now we find I2a in Kurds... much later Byzantine emperor writes that Serbs origin from white Serbs who came from area (whose description only fits to Bohemia) where they have also originally dwellt... while in same time Bavarian geographer writes that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... aren't Zeruiani clearly the same as Seneca's Serians (also known as Serres)...aren't they likely same people as Cimmerians / white Syrians? and what about white Syrians / white Serbs?

in my opinion those are names of a proto-serb tribe (from whom genetically not just modern Serbs origin but I2a people, with distinction that Serbs kept close to original tribal name... ) and they might have been Cimmerians (because according to Seneca they live among Sarmatians in Caspian highlands, and rule over Scythians in Europe, which means they are not Scythians and not Sarmatians, which leaves only Cimmerians as candidates only known historical tribes with such large Euroasian stretch are Scythians, Sarmatians and Cimmerians) and Cimmerians were likely Celtic... note that Gomer is thought to be same as Cimmerians and that some Roman historians held that word German (origin of word is gomer) means "seed" and is about true, original Celts... in fact Gomer relation suggest that this is not just about I2a but also about I2b (mark of ancestors of Germanic people)

iapetoc
22-06-11, 04:59
well understand the skudra case first,

Sherdana have 1 horn helmet. 2 balkanic populations had 1 horn helmet,
the Brygians and the Makedonians,

Surd alternate word for Φυλακαι in makedonia is Brygian origin
in fact if Surd is Kurd, that means Brygians moved to minor asia and not kurds to balkan,

exactly what the Skudra is telling us,
probably there was another tribe before Brygians or bithini that moved from balkans to minor asia,

That means that Thracians were Celtic and not Baltic,

the DNA of Brygian is the key,
note the case of Brygians,
plz seardch the Brygians,

Brygians were celtic or Baltic?


now to make clear the way.

when the unification movement of serbia had happened,
I mean when Serbians are considered as stated nation,
and not tribal move?



part 2



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1akYzcmmYwY&playnext=1&list=PLC69F6C5CD29D6208

Now that language is P-Celtic,

Galatian dialect, Gaulish

Does it sound to you like south slavic?

we both know about Galatian Celts that moved to minor asia,

probably a dialect of gaulish both P-Celtic,


The other case is the Noric which is connected with Balkans via Slovenia.

now we have 2 choices

1 is the Brygians being celtic and reach Greece
2 the Noric moved south to reach Greece and east to pannoni (scordisci serdi etc)


There is Celtic Blood in Balkans especially around Dinaric alps, west and north.

P-Celtic incorporates the following:


Gallic

Gaulish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaulish_language)
Lepontic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lepontic_language)
Noric (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noric_language)
Galatian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatian_language)

zanipolo
22-06-11, 08:10
now, compare Sherdana with non-Greek names for Scordus mountain , and it is clear that Scordisci is Greek exonym of Celtic version of some tribal name probably of Shardana....

Scordus in Greek
Šar planina (Šar mountain) in south Slavic
Shar Dagh in Ottoman Turkish
Malet e Sharrit in Albanian



Livy said that the Scordisci where germanic

Titus Livius, Ab Urbe Condita XL, 57
'the Scordisci will let the Bastarnae pass without difficulty; their languages
and customs are, after all, very similar, and the Scordisi may well join up with
the Bastarnae

Since the Bastanae are germanic across the danube ( north side ) then how can these scordisci be anything but germanic -celtic

In Roman text , they always said
gallia-celtic for celts from modern France.
germania-celtic ( or keltic) for celts from the austrain alps and east odf there.

maybe you are thinking of later on after the goths because the scordisci did last a long time.

Taranis
22-06-11, 11:48
Hmm... I don't like where this thread is going.

How yes no: I've said before you cannot just randomly equate d / b etc. Linguistics just do not work that way. Especially, what have biblical names to do there? Gomer? I mean, you cannot take the bible for full. Vague supposition over vague supposition. Also, again chromosomal tribalism (wasn't this supposed to be a linguistics thread?). This leads into nowhere, though I must admit that I did have that feeling from the start.


Livy said that the Scordisci where germanic

Titus Livius, Ab Urbe Condita XL, 57
'the Scordisci will let the Bastarnae pass without difficulty; their languages
and customs are, after all, very similar, and the Scordisi may well join up with
the Bastarnae

Since the Bastanae are germanic across the danube ( north side ) then how can these scordisci be anything but germanic -celtic

In Roman text , they always said
gallia-celtic for celts from modern France.
germania-celtic ( or keltic) for celts from the austrain alps and east odf there.

maybe you are thinking of later on after the goths because the scordisci did last a long time.

Strabo considers the Scordisci variably to be Celtic (Book VII, chapter 3.2) or Galatian (Book VII, chapters 2.2 and 5.2) and mentions them together with the Boii and the Taurisci. Having said that, I have my doubts that the name "Scordisci" is actually even Celtic in etymology.

EDIT: Having said that, "Scor-" could be Celtic in etymology (it's attested in Old Irish as "Scor" - "encampment, ceasing"). I'm unsure about the second part.

zanipolo
22-06-11, 12:30
Hmm... I don't like where this thread is going.

How yes no: I've said before you cannot just randomly equate d / b etc. Linguistics just do not work that way. Especially, what have biblical names to do there? Gomer? I mean, you cannot take the bible for full. Vague supposition over vague supposition. Also, again chromosomal tribalism (wasn't this supposed to be a linguistics thread?). This leads into nowhere, though I must admit that I did have that feeling from the start.



Strabo considers the Scordisci variably to be Celtic (Book VII, chapter 3.2) or Galatian (Book VII, chapters 2.2 and 5.2) and mentions them together with the Boii and the Taurisci. Having said that, I have my doubts that the name "Scordisci" is actually even Celtic in etymology.

EDIT: Having said that, "Scor-" could be Celtic in etymology (it's attested in Old Irish as "Scor" - "encampment, ceasing"). I'm unsure about the second part.


unless i misread the book, it says the name of scordisci came from the scordus mountains of modern day macedonia. It was use as a meeting place for the failed celtic invasion of greece, the remaining celtic tribes that particpated in the invasion renamed themselves Scordisci..........I cannot remember what they where previously called.

then again, you scor meaning might make sense as well.......encampment or ceased to exist as original named tribes

Taranis
22-06-11, 12:54
unless i misread the book, it says the name of scordisci came from the scordus mountains of modern day macedonia. It was use as a meeting place for the failed celtic invasion of greece, the remaining celtic tribes that particpated in the invasion renamed themselves Scordisci..........I cannot remember what they where previously called.

then again, you scor meaning might make sense as well.......encampment or ceased to exist as original named tribes

Well, that would make sense. Perhaps "Scordus" can be thought of as "encampmentous mountain".

Regarding previous name, the other tribes that participated in the invasion were the Boii/Boji (later called the Tolisto-Boɣi in Anatolia), the Volcae (specifically the Volcae Tectosages who also migrated into southern Gaul) as well as the Trocmii.

how yes no 2
22-06-11, 22:19
hair | *blawi- (?) | plav (fair haired, otherwise word means blue color)
hair | *doklo | dlaka (hair - not as a whole but as one thread of it)
haste | *britso | brzo (fast)
haunch | *kostā- (??) | kost (bone)
healthy | *jakko | jako (strong, healthy)
heat | *gʷritu | goreti (to burn)
herb, plant | *lustu- | list (leaf)
hill | *brendo- (?) | brdo
hips | *akraitsā- | kraci (legs)
hit | *toraw- (?) | udara
hold | *derk- (??) | drži (hold), direk (riser, post, column)
horse | *ekwo | konj
horse | *kaballo | kobila (female horse)
horsehair | *rauno- (??) | runo (fleece, wool)
host | *dāmā-, *dāmo | dom (home)
host | *sloug-eto- (?) | sluga (servant), služiti (to serve)
hurry | *sφisk | spiskati (to spend stg. valuable e.g. money in a hurry, too fast)
illness | *balo | bolest
insult | *makljo- (?), *tambal- (?) | makljati (to beat), tamburati (to beat) - both are kind of slang words
jump | *skak | skok
knee | *kʷenno-glīno- | koleno
know | *gnā- (?) | znati
know | *weid | vid-eti (to see), vid (vision)
lament |*φari-kan-e | narikanje

how yes no 2
22-06-11, 22:24
Well, that would make sense. Perhaps "Scordus" can be thought of as "encampmentous mountain".

Regarding previous name, the other tribes that participated in the invasion were the Boii/Boji (later called the Tolisto-Boɣi in Anatolia), the Volcae (specifically the Volcae Tectosages who also migrated into southern Gaul) as well as the Trocmii.
thus, there are examples of tribal names that are prefix before Boii

what does Tolisto mean?

Ser - typically means "head", "main"...
Ser-Boii would be for Boii stg. like "Royal Scythians" were for Scythians

Taranis
22-06-11, 23:39
thus, there are examples of tribal names that are prefix before Boii

what does Tolisto mean?

Yes, but it's the only example I've seen so far. The phrase "Boio-" as a prefix is fairly common however (Boio-durum, Boio-rix, etc.) And I have not seen any satisfying etymology yet for "Tolisto-".

perhaps this from the proto-celtic table:
*(φ)listo-


Ser - typically means "head", "main"...
Ser-Boii would be for Boii stg. like "Royal Scythians" were for Scythians

There's no reason to assume that's the etymology.

"Boii" derives from the word for "cattle". Compare PIE "gwous", consider that PIE *gw yields *b in Celtic (*g in Slavic). Cognates actually exist in Slavic:

Czech Hovězí ("ox")
Croatian Goveče ("ox")
Slovenian Govedo ("cattle")
Bulgarian Govedo ("ox")

Even if it was a borrowing, how and why does the o dissappear (ie "Boii" -> "Bi")? I think you're following a false trail here (well, I've been thinking that all along anyways). The Boii were also long since gone when the Slavic peoples showed up in the Balkans.

how yes no 2
23-06-11, 22:33
Yes, but it's the only example I've seen so far. The phrase "Boio-" as a prefix is fairly common however (Boio-durum, Boio-rix, etc.) And I have not seen any satisfying etymology yet for "Tolisto-".

perhaps this from the proto-celtic table:
*(φ)listo-



There's no reason to assume that's the etymology.

"Boii" derives from the word for "cattle". Compare PIE "gwous", consider that PIE *gw yields *b in Celtic (*g in Slavic). Cognates actually exist in Slavic:

Czech Hovězí ("ox")
Croatian Goveče ("ox")
Slovenian Govedo ("cattle")
Bulgarian Govedo ("ox")
Serbian "vo" = ox


Even if it was a borrowing, how and why does the o dissappear (ie "Boii" -> "Bi")? I think you're following a false trail here (well, I've been thinking that all along anyways). The Boii were also long since gone when the Slavic peoples showed up in the Balkans.

you assume Slavic people came from east, but Serbs are recorded to have arrived from land they call in their language Boika and that by description matches only Bohemia/Bavaria both named by Boii... historical source says Serbs have also originally dwellt there, while we know that Boii are people who have originally dwellt there and that area is named after them...

in fact, not just I2a2, I would not be surprised if all I2 origins from Bohemia....I2b developed among those who spread to north, I2a1 among those who spread to south, I2a2 among those who spread to east..... thus I2a of Kurds is I2a2...
all of them are Cimmerians or Gomer
but the ones who spread to north (I2b) kept the name, while the ones who spread to south (I2a1) and east (I2a2) took name whose root is Sard/Sarb/Kurd
modern Serbs may origin from Serdi - who are thracanized branch of Scordisci... (thracans being ancestors of russians)

Boii in Slavic languages means "battle" and is in base of many words related to war
voj-nik = soldier, vojvoda = battle leader
interestingly, iapetoc relates origin of word serb to soldier as well...
similar holds for German (originally I2b people) tribal name...

btw. I find it peculiar that north part of Serbia is named Vojvodina, which maps to Boii being more towards north along Danube than Scordisci

my proposal is that Scordisci are related to Boii or same as Boii and that they origin in Bohemia... than they spread along Danube and around Black sea and entered Asia minor in several ways: first as Sherdana, later as Cimmerians, than as Serdi... today from those I2a people tribal name remains are preserved in nation names such as Kurds, Serbs, Sarbans and Sardinians....

the spread of Serians went all the way to northwest China, Caspian highlands and Red sea, which we know from writings of Seneca....

I think that those people were I2a2....

R1a pre-Baltic people lived in Dacia and R1a pre-Slavic as Thracians (essentially wrongly written word Russians written in Greek way...note that ancient Greek spelling system also turned in similar example Rasena into Tyrsenians), Pannonians, Veneti

in my opinion, Cimmerians were I2 people and Sherdana, Scordisci, Serdi were I2a
they were probably PIE people.... split between I2b, I2a1 and I2a2 Cimmerians gave Germanic, italic and east Celtic speakers...
ancient authors suggest that word German meant "seed" and was used to denote original Celts.... Josephus is sure that original Celts are Cimmerians/Cappadocians....Strabo records Cappadocians as whiteSyrians...additional reason to argue original Celts were I2 people is for instance lack of R1b in north Africa while I2a1 is widely present, while Celts are recorded to live in Africa, Asia and Europe...who are they in north Africa if not Garamantes, advanced civilization that with irrigation systems turned Sahara into agricultural area, whose capital Germa is near town Seba?

Taranis
24-06-11, 00:59
you assume Slavic people came from east, but Serbs are recorded to have arrived from land they call in their language Boika and that by description matches only Bohemia/Bavaria both named by Boii... historical source says Serbs have also originally dwellt there, while we know that Boii are people who have originally dwellt there and that area is named after them...

Yes, there's every reason to assume the Slavs came from the east because there is no evidence whatsoever for them in the area you consider:

Tacitus (late 1st century AD) in his Germania (chapter XXVIII) states that two Gaulish tribes, the Helveti and the Boii - once dominated the Hercynian Forest. He also states that the term "Boiemum" ("Boio-haemum" - "Boii home") has survived despite the population has changed. In chapter XLII, Tacitus also states that the Germanic Marcomanni occupy now the territory formerly occupied by the Boii.

Strabo (early 1st century AD) in his geography Book VII, chapter 2 states that the Boii were ravaged by the Cimbri during their migration. Strabo also mentions (in Book VII chapter 1) "Boiohaemum" being occupied "now" (in his time) by the Germanic Marcomanni.

Ptolemy (2nd century AD) in his Geography (Book 2, chapter 10) also mentions the Marcomanni in the region.

The Cimbrian War was in the late 2nd century BC. It stands to reason that the region was Celtic before, and became Germanicized in the wake of that event. It's clear though that there were basically no more Boii in Bohemia by the 1st century AD.

The Marcomanni dominated Bohemia certainly until the Markomannic Wars (late 2nd century AD), but more probably until later into the early migrations period (5th century AD). In the 6th century or so, the Czechs arrived in the region.

So if the Serbians ever were in Bohemia (which I find quite dubious), they cannot arrived there before the 5th century in my opinion, and they certainly didn't "originally" dwell there.

I won't really bother to reply about the rest of this... "chromosomal tribalism", however...


ancient authors suggest that word German meant "seed" and was used to denote original Celts.... Josephus is sure that original Celts are Cimmerians/Cappadocians....Strabo records Cappadocians as whiteSyrians...additional reason to argue original Celts were I2 people is for instance lack of R1b in north Africa while I2a1 is widely present, while Celts are recorded to live in Africa, Asia and Europe...who are they in north Africa if not Garamantes, advanced civilization that with irrigation systems turned Sahara into agricultural area, whose capital Germa is near town Seba?

You can't be seriously claiming this nonsense, can you?!? :petrified:

As far as the Celtic-speaking people got (from the Algarve to Anatolia), there were no Celts in Africa. Also, I2a1 certainly isn't "widely resent", neither is R1b completely lacking (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml). Stop making up such stuff.

iapetoc
24-06-11, 01:21
Yes, but it's the only example I've seen so far. The phrase "Boio-" as a prefix is fairly common however (Boio-durum, Boio-rix, etc.) And I have not seen any satisfying etymology yet for "Tolisto-".

perhaps this from the proto-celtic table:
*(φ)listo-



There's no reason to assume that's the etymology.

"Boii" derives from the word for "cattle". Compare PIE "gwous", consider that PIE *gw yields *b in Celtic (*g in Slavic). Cognates actually exist in Slavic:

Czech Hovězí ("ox")
Croatian Goveče ("ox")
Slovenian Govedo ("cattle")
Bulgarian Govedo ("ox")

Even if it was a borrowing, how and why does the o dissappear (ie "Boii" -> "Bi")? I think you're following a false trail here (well, I've been thinking that all along anyways). The Boii were also long since gone when the Slavic peoples showed up in the Balkans.


hmmmm

could tolisto conncted with Doliche or Tolo ?

LeBrok
24-06-11, 06:57
I think Serbs came from east with rest of Slavs, settled in Bavaria, and later some moved south.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Migration_of_Serbs.png/250px-Migration_of_Serbs.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Migration_of_Serbs.png)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia

They lived not to far from white Croats and probably moved east and south in unison too.
They show as Belochrovates on this map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Polska_Rosja_Skandynawia_w_IX_w.jpg/715px-Polska_Rosja_Skandynawia_w_IX_w.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Polska_Rosja_Skandynawia_w_IX_w.jpg)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82a_Chorwacja


With Boii it might get interesting. It really goes nicely with slavic word boi (battle), till Bolshevik revolution the ruling class in Russia was called Boyars/Boiars. This link says that it originated in Bulgaria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar

Dagne
24-06-11, 07:36
With Boii it might get interesting. It really goes nicely with slavic word boi (battle), till Bolshevik revolution the ruling class in Russia was called Boyars/Boiars. This link says that it originated in Bulgaria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar

I think the boyar was used in Russia from 10th to 17th century. Peter the Great abolished the title. The word was also adopted in other non-Slavic languages like in Finnish pojar or in Lithuanian bajoras. According to my source the Bulgarians adopted the word from the Turkish language where boyar means a head of royal cavalry.

LeBrok
24-06-11, 08:42
Interesting Dagne, Boyar might be old celtic title/world after all.
Looks like it has IE origin, boi, boy, battle. In slavic battle - bitva, fight - buika, go to fight- do boiu. In many instances b changed to V, and we have many words like war-voina, soldier-voiak, fighting-valka. (I used english-phonetics more than correct polish spelling :).

Taranis
24-06-11, 08:47
I think Serbs came from east with rest of Slavs, settled in Bavaria, and later some moved south.

Well, this is certainly a possibility. The reason I remain sceptical of that is the time frame. When could they have arrived/left? And, I wouldn't necessarily think Bavaria (there is, of course, also the question about the origin of the Bavarians themselves at that) but more probably Bohemia. Specifically because the Bavarians ("Baiovarii") themselves claimed to be from Bohemia originally.


They lived not to far from white Croats and probably moved east and south in unison too.
They show as Belochrovates on this map:

What I wonder on is what the Slavic usage of "white" there meant. But yes, it would seem very likely that the Serbs and the Croats travelled in unison.


With Boii it might get interesting. It really goes nicely with slavic word boi (battle), till Bolshevik revolution the ruling class in Russia was called Boyars/Boiars. This link says that it originated in Bulgaria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar

The Celtic tribal name is generally understood as derived from the Celtic word for "cattle" (thereby, possibly in the sense of "cattle owner"). Cognates even exist in modern Celtic languages (Irish "Bó" - "cow", Welsh "Buwch" - "cow", Breton "Buoc'h" - "cow").

zanipolo
24-06-11, 09:01
I think Serbs came from east with rest of Slavs, settled in Bavaria, and later some moved south.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c3/Migration_of_Serbs.png/250px-Migration_of_Serbs.png (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Migration_of_Serbs.png)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Serbia

They lived not to far from white Croats and probably moved east and south in unison too.
They show as Belochrovates on this map:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/93/Polska_Rosja_Skandynawia_w_IX_w.jpg/715px-Polska_Rosja_Skandynawia_w_IX_w.jpg (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/93/Polska_Rosja_Skandynawia_w_IX_w.jpg)
http://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bia%C5%82a_Chorwacja


With Boii it might get interesting. It really goes nicely with slavic word boi (battle), till Bolshevik revolution the ruling class in Russia was called Boyars/Boiars. This link says that it originated in Bulgaria.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boyar


Are you serious?.........lets be logical about this. If the Boii was in italian lands between lombardy and tuscany ( called Romagna now.) and where called BOII and then they migrated to czech area and where called BOII , how then did this become some kind of serb word unless the serb where short of words.

In Italy , there celtic name meant
.Boii (Milk People) [next to Eridanus River (Po) Valley].
area in Bohemia was called Boiohaemum

zanipolo
24-06-11, 09:08
Well, this is certainly a possibility. The reason I remain sceptical of that is the time frame. When could they have arrived/left? And, I wouldn't necessarily think Bavaria (there is, of course, also the question about the origin of the Bavarians themselves at that) but more probably Bohemia. Specifically because the Bavarians ("Baiovarii") themselves claimed to be from Bohemia originally.

bavarians where
Baiuoarii (Sacred Milk People)




What I wonder on is what the Slavic usage of "white" there meant. But yes, it would seem very likely that the Serbs and the Croats travelled in unison.

Doubt this very much



The Celtic tribal name is generally understood as derived from the Celtic word for "cattle" (thereby, possibly in the sense of "cattle owner"). Cognates even exist in modern Celtic languages (Irish "Bó" - "cow", Welsh "Buwch" - "cow", Breton "Buoc'h" - "cow").
bretons where the Britanni tribe (Cow Goddess People)

Taranis
24-06-11, 09:12
Are you serious?.........lets be logical about this. If the Boii was in italian lands between lombardy and tuscany ( called Romagna now.) and where called BOII and then they migrated to czech area and where called BOII , how then did this become some kind of serb word unless the serb where short of words.

Actually, the Boii are far more likely to have travelled from Bohemia into Italy, not vice versa. Bohemia was part of the original Celtic homeland, and the city of Bologna was originally Etruscan until it was taken by the Boii.

Besides, there were five locations where various branches of the Boii - at different times, of course - lived:
- Bohemia (their presumed original homeland, which was taken by the Marcomanni in the wake of the Cimbrian war)
- Northern Italy.
- Pannonia.
- The "Tolisto-Bogi" of Anatolia.
- There was another branch of Boii (probably remnants of the Bohemian Boii) which was mentioned by the Caesar to have fought alongside the Helvetians when they invaded Gaul.


In Italy , there celtic name meant
.Boii (Milk People) [next to Eridanus River (Po) Valley].
area in Bohemia was called Boiohaemum

"Milk people"? That's a very... loose... translation, no? :innocent:

zanipolo
24-06-11, 09:18
I think you are fishing too much , All i read was that these are original slavic people
main slavs = Russia
western slavs = Poles
Southern slavs = Bulgars

Croats, serbs, slovenes, bosnians, montenegrians etc etc etc are still trying to define if they are slavs originally or not.

In regards to your veneti theory, sorry to say but the name Veneti was a Roman invented word from VENETUS which means a blue-green clour , the colour of the sea, they gave this name to many areas. latest I found was
Veniatia (Vinhais)Venetii (Sacred Salmon People)in Portugal

The adraitic veneti was a small tribe illyrian tribe surrounded by celtic people in the eastern part of veneto - the Brixii and the Euganei ( non celtic) and in the friuli area, by the carni.
I can give you all the tribes that spoke venetic but they where not veneti

In celtic tales the veneti where said to be
Veneti (Old Ones): situla at Cadore: Venetic: eik goltanos doto louderai kanei
Goltanos [The One-Eyed One] sacrificed this for the virgin Kanei [The Powerful]

zanipolo
24-06-11, 09:21
Are you postitive because the veneti where neighbours of the Boii in Italy , but had disappeared when the Boii where in the czech area..............I better get to my books to confirm

Taranis
24-06-11, 09:26
Zanipolo, why do you bring up the Veneti here, anyways? I thought we were talking about the Boii?! :startled:

zanipolo
24-06-11, 09:34
Because How and yes keeps bringing it up

I am glad to only bring up the Boii

Taranis
24-06-11, 09:40
Because How and yes keeps bringing it up

That's a point, he keeps doing that. And chromosomal tribalism. And according to him, about every ancient ethnic group was in fact Serbian! :laughing:


I am glad to only bring up the Boii

Alright. By the way, the main town of the Italian Boii, Bononia (modern-day Bologna) was previously an Etruscan city called Felsina.

There's also Livy's* annectdote about Bellovesus who purportedly led the Celtic/Gaulish invasion of northern Italy. He does get the tribes involved wrong, however, since he mentions tribes which did NOT settle in Italy (Bituriges, Arverni, Aedui, Ambarri, Carnutes and Aulerci), and omits tribes which actually verymuch did (Boii, Cenomani, Lingones). The only tribe he actually gets right are the Senones.

*Ab Urbe Condita, book 5, chapter 34.

zanipolo
24-06-11, 09:49
Any info on this celtic tribe in Pannonia?
Apulli (Apple People of Apollo) [Latin: Pannonii] or
Arravisci / Eravisci (Snowdrop People) or
Cotini (Grain People)

The Cenomani (Clear Water People) was situated on the border of Lombardy and Veneto , they where around for a while.

The Boii was south of the Po river in Bologna as you say. Wiki says they where in Italy in 390BC, then went to the danube and later settled in Silesia Poland

iapetoc
24-06-11, 10:56
Interesting Dagne, Boyar might be old celtic title/world after all.
Looks like it has IE origin, boi, boy, battle. In slavic battle - bitva, fight - buika, go to fight- do boiu. In many instances b changed to V, and we have many words like war-voina, soldier-voiak, fighting-valka. (I used english-phonetics more than correct polish spelling :).

nope it is not IE Sherif and Boyar or Bollan is Turkish words,
Sherif means chiftain, and boyar means guardian,
in fact boyar means 'tough quy' i agree with dagne,
I don't know if avars or others,

iapetoc
24-06-11, 10:59
I think you are fishing too much , All i read was that these are original slavic people
main slavs = Russia
western slavs = Poles
Southern slavs = Bulgars

Croats, serbs, slovenes, bosnians, montenegrians etc etc etc are still trying to define if they are slavs originally or not.

In regards to your veneti theory, sorry to say but the name Veneti was a Roman invented word from VENETUS which means a blue-green clour , the colour of the sea, they gave this name to many areas. latest I found was
Veniatia (Vinhais)Venetii (Sacred Salmon People)in Portugal

The adraitic veneti was a small tribe illyrian tribe surrounded by celtic people in the eastern part of veneto - the Brixii and the Euganei ( non celtic) and in the friuli area, by the carni.
I can give you all the tribes that spoke venetic but they where not veneti

In celtic tales the veneti where said to be
Veneti (Old Ones): situla at Cadore: Venetic: eik goltanos doto louderai kanei
Goltanos [The One-Eyed One] sacrificed this for the virgin Kanei [The Powerful]


Bulgars comes the balkars, Non slavic people,
(although bulgaria is 'slavic' speaking that is why many try to connect or reconstruct thracian toward Baltic

Croats and serbs is another story,

we must not forget the avars,
Croatia is inner Hrvati Hrbt is after Avars tribal name,
Balkars were not slavic (asparouch) they are connected with other non Slavic nations

on the other hand Hrbt and Srb share almost same language!!!!!!!

and serbians have more domestic DNA while Croatians bigger (double) R1a from others,

the case is complex, we miss many Avars,
example Cumans who live in south Serbia and Fyrom Kumanovo and also in Romania etc are none Slavic, but today speak Slavic or romanian and their language is lost?

iapetoc
24-06-11, 11:30
Any info on this celtic tribe in Pannonia?
Apulli (Apple People of Apollo) [Latin: Pannonii] or
Arravisci / Eravisci (Snowdrop People) or
Cotini (Grain People)

The Cenomani (Clear Water People) was situated on the border of Lombardy and Veneto , they where around for a while.

The Boii was south of the Po river in Bologna as you say. Wiki says they where in Italy in 390BC, then went to the danube and later settled in Silesia Poland


yes apulia Romania Daci people


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/83/Dacie_Burebista_-60-44.png

Taranis
24-06-11, 12:11
Any info on this celtic tribe in Pannonia?
Apulli (Apple People of Apollo) [Latin: Pannonii] or
Arravisci / Eravisci (Snowdrop People) or
Cotini (Grain People)

The Cenomani (Clear Water People) was situated on the border of Lombardy and Veneto , they where around for a while.

"Apple people of Apollo"?!? Where are you taking these "etymologies" from?! They are complete nonsense! :petrified:


The Boii was south of the Po river in Bologna as you say. Wiki says they where in Italy in 390BC,...

This is correct, but...


...then went to the danube and later settled in Silesia Poland

... this is not. Yes, a branch of them went into Italy. But the Boii on the Danube were a separate branch. Also, Wikipedia states this nowhere, even it is very clear that those were different branches.

zanipolo
24-06-11, 13:20
"Apple people of Apollo"?!? Where are you taking these "etymologies" from?! They are complete nonsense! :petrified:


.

Before I reveal the site, how accurate are these

Seni (Senj) Senones
Sava River Sequsiani
Pannonia Secunda (Coastal Dacia) Dacii/Thracii
Dubrovnik Dumonii / Domnanii
Swabia Aedui Baiocasses
Bregenz & Brenner Brigantes
Gati (Sankt Stefan im Gailtal) Cath [Latin: Quadi Suevi]

actually gati should be gatti which was a celti-illyric name for Raeti

Taranis
24-06-11, 13:34
Before I reveal the site, how accurate are these

Seni (Senj) Senones
Sava River Sequsiani
Pannonia Secunda (Coastal Dacia) Dacii/Thracii
Dubrovnik Dumonii / Domnanii
Swabia Aedui Baiocasses
Bregenz & Brenner Brigantes
Gati (Sankt Stefan im Gailtal) Cath [Latin: Quadi Suevi]

actually gati should be gatti which was a celti-illyric name for Raeti

In a nutshell, this looks like 90% as complete nonsense. There were no Senones or Dumnoni in Croatia, for starters. Also, in a different kind of crazy is that the original name of "Dubrovnik" was actually "Ragusa".

I also don't see how anybody would make the connection between Swabia, the Baiocasses and the Aedui. You can't just randomly mention tribes and regions out of context and claim they are related, can you?!

The only thing that I sparked there that is actually accurate: Bregenz (Brigantion) was actually the main town of the Vindelician Briganti.

Besides, I'm totally clueless what you're arguing here, anyways.

zanipolo
24-06-11, 21:21
In a nutshell, this looks like 90% as complete nonsense. There were no Senones or Dumnoni in Croatia, for starters. Also, in a different kind of crazy is that the original name of "Dubrovnik" was actually "Ragusa".

I also don't see how anybody would make the connection between Swabia, the Baiocasses and the Aedui. You can't just randomly mention tribes and regions out of context and claim they are related, can you?!

The only thing that I sparked there that is actually accurate: Bregenz (Brigantion) was actually the main town of the Vindelician Briganti.

Besides, I'm totally clueless what you're arguing here, anyways.


i was wanting to know the accuracy of this link
http://celticowboy.com/appv.htm

because the map of the cisapine gauls in italy incorporated the Boii of Bologna.

There are other maps of england, france, ireland, Spain etc etc showing celtic tribes , but I was interested as per the recent Boii discussion on the quadi tribe that destroyed the boii in bohemia.

note: I do know about the republic of ragusa and thats why i used it.

Taranis
24-06-11, 21:48
i was wanting to know the accuracy of this link
http://celticowboy.com/appv.htm

because the map of the cisapine gauls in italy incorporated the Boii of Bologna.

There are other maps of england, france, ireland, Spain etc etc showing celtic tribes , but I was interested as per the recent Boii discussion on the quadi tribe that destroyed the boii in bohemia.

note: I do know about the republic of ragusa and thats why i used it.

Oh my god... there is so much nonsense in there I don't know where to start. Whoever this is, he has zero understanding of linguistics. :petrified:

Let me take a few examples though which in particular caught my eyes:

"Atrebates" he gives as "bear people", while in fact the name means "inhabitants".

"Arverni" - he gives as "seed people", while in fact it means "upon-alders".

"Biturges" (sic - actually "Bituriges") he gives as "sacred tree people", while in fact the name means "world kings".

"Tectosages" - he gives as "flowing water people", while in fact it means "property-claimers"

So, as you can see, it's complete nonsense. There is also an awful number of overtly non-Celtic tribes (I've noticed Iberian, Germanic, Dacian, Illyrian and Italic tribes in there... :petrified: )

iapetoc
24-06-11, 22:17
Well, this is certainly a possibility. The reason I remain sceptical of that is the time frame. When could they have arrived/left? And, I wouldn't necessarily think Bavaria (there is, of course, also the question about the origin of the Bavarians themselves at that) but more probably Bohemia. Specifically because the Bavarians ("Baiovarii") themselves claimed to be from Bohemia originally.



What I wonder on is what the Slavic usage of "white" there meant. But yes, it would seem very likely that the Serbs and the Croats travelled in unison.



The Celtic tribal name is generally understood as derived from the Celtic word for "cattle" (thereby, possibly in the sense of "cattle owner"). Cognates even exist in modern Celtic languages (Irish "Bó" - "cow", Welsh "Buwch" - "cow", Breton "Buoc'h" - "cow").




white is west
in order some to understand the horizon gave colours, so white is west, you find the simmilarity in a non slavic language
in fact that is why I believe that Getae or thracians were not Slavic but towards germanic or Celtic,

for example I give name west A a country that according the other take it as ves or wet so gives hes word wet bella A or Bes A (vesarabia, Bellarusia)

That is explain with german language , cpmpare water and wasser the s-t

so west or ves or wes with weiss becomes in slavic incomers Bella
weiss serbia = Bella serbia


(Now do understand that Daci was Getae and not Baltic or thracians were celto-germani
while thracians were skudet ->skudra
that romanian -au is after a germanic -au after an older dacothracian -au
and not after the Balto-slavonization -ava)



Now about tolisto you connected with milk,
there is a word wηich might give another meaning
Greek ειδυλιχιος Dolico Doliche
italian Dolce
English Doll

or a toponymic like thule?

compare the extract with Grekk ευβοια

how yes no 2
24-06-11, 22:35
ancient authors suggest that word German meant "seed" and was used to denote original Celts.... Josephus is sure that original Celts are Cimmerians/Cappadocians....Strabo records Cappadocians as whiteSyrians...additional reason to argue original Celts were I2 people is for instance lack of R1b in north Africa while I2a1 is widely present, while Celts are recorded to live in Africa, Asia and Europe...who are they in north Africa if not Garamantes, advanced civilization that with irrigation systems turned Sahara into agricultural area, whose capital Germa is near town Seba?



You can't be seriously claiming this nonsense, can you?!? :petrified:

As far as the Celtic-speaking people got (from the Algarve to Anatolia), there were no Celts in Africa. Also, I2a1 certainly isn't "widely resent", neither is R1b completely lacking (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/european_y-dna_haplogroups.shtml). Stop making up such stuff.

you keep bragging with your ignorance mr. teacher wanna be...


138 Few nations have wandered so far and wide as the Galatæ. We meet with them in Europe, Asia, and Africa, under the various names of Galatæ Galatians, Gauls, and Kelts. Galatia, in Asia Minor, was settled by one of these hordes.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=1:chapter= 3&highlight=galatia

now tell me where is native Celtic R1b in Africa? zero...
but there is plenty of native I2a1 all around north Africa....
I am convinced these I2a1 people were Garamantes and as other Gomer ( Cimmerian ) derived people were original Celts...

so, there is your answer to who were original Celts...

they were I2 people - Cimmerians/Gomer as indicated by Josephus, and as also guessed by several roman historians who were convinced that German (word derived from Gomer) is a name of original Celts....

point is there were several branches of I2...
only one of them I2b is related to people we now call Germanic...
but all I2 are Cimmerians or Gomer in origin...

I2a2 are east branch and they later became known as Serians/Zeruiani...and today their tribal names and genetic origin is partly preserved in Serbs, Kurds,Sarbans...
I2a1 is south branch and gave tribal name such as Sardinians...

I think Sherdana and Scordisci as east branch were I2a2
but they could have also have been I2a1...

zanipolo
24-06-11, 22:53
as per text and map , below
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=f899xH_quaMC&pg=PA13&lpg=PA13&dq=illyrian+tribe+the+veneti&source=bl&ots=p-RCidEr2K&sig=i6fXCce3Qb3BOlg696ZkQx0zY_A&hl=en&ei=gPYEToTgM46JmQXj1oWrDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CFwQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

it would seem there where more than just boii tribe in italy, there where others further south on the adriatic sea which where celtic.

In regards to the Taurisci, they seem to be the main tribe of the minor celtic tribe in pannonia. This map must be from around 300BC

how yes no 2
24-06-11, 22:54
white is west
correct


in order some to understand the horizon gave colours, so white is west, you find the simmilarity in a non slavic language
in fact that is why I believe that Getae or thracians were not Slavic but towards germanic or Celtic,

for example I give name west A a country that according the other take it as ves or wet so gives hes word wet bella A or Bes A (vesarabia, Bellarusia)

That is explain with german language , cpmpare water and wasser the s-t

so west or ves or wes with weiss becomes in slavic incomers Bella
weiss serbia = Bella serbia

you have no clue of origin though...
it has nothing to do with linguistics...

all steppe people use colors to designate sides of the world
white- west, black -north, red- south, yellow -east...
hence names such as Black sea, red sea....

it is an ancient system...
really ancient... and widespread...

I think this was originally related to colors of races....but it is a bit mixed up... black (north) and red (south) are flipped....perhaps due to e.g. pole shift or climate changes?




(Now do understand that Daci was Getae and not Baltic or thracians were celto-germani
while thracians were skudet ->skudra
that romanian -au is after a germanic -au after an older dacothracian -au
and not after the Balto-slavonization -ava)
-au and -ava are essentially same suffix...
in Slavic Danube= Dunav, but other rivers Morava, Sava,...
-ava is ending for feminine noun, -av for male noun...

Dunav is male river as it is much larger than female rivers...

zanipolo
24-06-11, 22:55
you keep bragging with your ignorance mr. teacher wanna be...


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=1:chapter= 3&highlight=galatia

now tell me where is native Celtic R1b in Africa? zero...
but there is plenty of native I2a1 all around north Africa....
I am convinced these I2a1 people were Garamantes and as other Gomer ( Cimmerian ) derived people were original Celts...

so, there is your answer to who were original Celts...

they were I2 people - Cimmerians/Gomer as indicated by Josephus, and as also guessed by several roman historians who were convinced that German (word derived from Gomer) is a name of original Celts....

point is there were several branches of I2...
only one of them I2b is related to people we now call Germanic...
but all I2 are Cimmerians or Gomer in origin...

I2a2 are east branch and they later became known as Serians/Zeruiani...and today their tribal names and genetic origin is partly preserved in Serbs, Kurds,Sarbans...
I2a1 is south branch and gave tribal name such as Sardinians...

I think Sherdana and Scordisci as east branch were I2a2
but they could have also have been I2a1...

I2a1 in africa was from the vandals/visigoths

There is also some I2a1 in sicily and puglia due to the normans , who where originally norse men from norway who settled and conquered Normandy france,
After the french conquest , they went to sicily, after this they went to England , hasting 1066

iapetoc
24-06-11, 23:19
correct


you have no clue of origin though...
it has nothing to do with linguistics...

all steppe people use colors to designate sides of the world
white- west, black -north, red- south, yellow -east...
hence names such as Black sea, red sea....

it is an ancient system...
really ancient... and widespread...

I think this was originally related to colors of races....but it is a bit mixed up... black (north) and red (south) are flipped....perhaps due to e.g. pole shift or climate changes?



-au and -ava are essentially same suffix...
in Slavic Danube= Dunav, but other rivers Morava, Sava,...
-ava is ending for feminine noun, -av for male noun...

Dunav is male river as it is much larger than female rivers...

try to compare it with German austrian Donau -au
also with Savus

All rivers were male deities and had a female protector.

now about North try to compare it with Noir noire and Nord
the yellow and the red????
red sea is after an red algae that is growing
yellow? ?
besides if slavic system was North = black then Black sea sould not be black but red os yellow according place of slavic people, cause they could name black a sea that was south or west or east of them.

Black sea comes the persian axain (dark) greek axein or oxyn means rust (dark colour) and thracian-Vrygian axan or ascan, the euxinus from axeinus became after Sinope colony.
not north sea

as you see you are wrong about the system
it is a wrong hear from Slavic people, not a ancient system

Taranis
24-06-11, 23:54
you keep bragging with your ignorance mr. teacher wanna be...

I'm not ignorant. I'm sticking to facts, not fantasy.


http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=1:chapter= 3&highlight=galatia

You're interpreting too much in this. When Strabo says that the Greeks encountered Celts on every continent doesn't mean that Celtic tribes settled on every continent. In fact, there's a far more plausible explanation for this: Galatian mercenaries operated in the entire eastern Mediterranean and provided service to the basically all of the Hellenistic sucessor kingdoms in the region, including at the court of the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt. There's no need for a mythic Celtic kingdom in North Africa for which there is zero evidence.


now tell me where is native Celtic R1b in Africa? zero...
but there is plenty of native I2a1 all around north Africa....
I am convinced these I2a1 people were Garamantes and as other Gomer ( Cimmerian ) derived people were original Celts...

The Garamantes were Berbers (http://ilbonito.wordpress.com/2007/11/12/whispers-in-the-sand-a-message-from-a-lost-civilization/). Period. End of story. :useless:

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 00:44
try to compare it with German austrian Donau -au
also with Savus

All rivers were male deities and had a female protector.

Danube is special....it played a role of natural frontier....
I can imagine that Dun in Dun-av probably has same origin as -dun in Celtic towns...
kind of fortress thing...
river Don might be the same...

but rivers like Morava, Sava are brought in relation with certain mythological beings...

Sava is by some related to Sabazios \
actually, I read that Sava = Sabazios is big tributary of Danube(Zeus)

Morava is name of key river and some small rivers in both Czech republic and Serbia...origin of name is not clear...
more = sea
sanskrit mora = death
Slavic mora = nightmare, deamon,
mora = witch (serbian church slavic), delusion (proto-Slavic)
Morana = godess of winter and death

however, Morana was, from obvious reasons, one of the least popular among gods of Slavic mythology...

so, river Morava may be not after her....



red sea is after an red algae that is growing
no, its not...
that is later interpretation because original meaning was lost...
but most color place names were about sides of the worlds...

Belarus = white Russians = west Russians



besides if slavic system was North = black then Black sea sould not be black but red os yellow according place of slavic people, cause they could name black a sea that was south or west or east of them.
unless Slavs originally lived more south than you think...
e.g. in Thrace

as explained in Russian primary chronicle...



as you see you are wrong about the system
it is a wrong hear from Slavic people, not a ancient system
keep dreaming...
this is well known system...
iranian peoples have it as well
think even Chinese...

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 00:51
You're interpreting too much in this. When Strabo says that the Greeks encountered Celts on every continent doesn't mean that Celtic tribes settled on every continent. In fact, there's a far more plausible explanation for this: Galatian mercenaries operated in the entire eastern Mediterranean and provided service to the basically all of the Hellenistic sucessor kingdoms in the region, including at the court of the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt. There's no need for a mythic Celtic kingdom in North Africa for which there is zero evidence.
when he speaks of meeting with them in europe, Africa and Asia
he clearly speaks of nations wandering not about individuals wandering....
nations wandering implies settlement...



The Garamantes were Berbers (http://ilbonito.wordpress.com/2007/11/12/whispers-in-the-sand-a-message-from-a-lost-civilization/). Period. End of story. :useless:
your timeline is inversed....
Berbers partly origin from Garamantes...

Cambrius (The Red)
25-06-11, 00:51
@ how yes no
You can't be serious. There is no evidence of Celticity in Serbia. The highest confirmed levels of Celtic settlement are in Western Europe - France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and parts of England, followed by the Alpine region.

zanipolo
25-06-11, 01:01
white is west
in order some to understand the horizon gave colours, so white is west, you find the simmilarity in a non slavic language
in fact that is why I believe that Getae or thracians were not Slavic but towards germanic or Celtic,

for example I give name west A a country that according the other take it as ves or wet so gives hes word wet bella A or Bes A (vesarabia, Bellarusia)

That is explain with german language , cpmpare water and wasser the s-t

so west or ves or wes with weiss becomes in slavic incomers Bella
weiss serbia = Bella serbia


(Now do understand that Daci was Getae and not Baltic or thracians were celto-germani
while thracians were skudet ->skudra
that romanian -au is after a germanic -au after an older dacothracian -au
and not after the Balto-slavonization -ava)



Now about tolisto you connected with milk,
there is a word wηich might give another meaning
Greek ειδυλιχιος Dolico Doliche
italian Dolce
English Doll

compare the extract with Grekk ευβοια

bella? what does this mean.

In latin the word bellum is war , so Bellum Pannonicum is war in pannonia against the illyrians 15BC,
ante = before .
The US congress befroe the american civil war still used the phase Antebellum = before the war ( us civil war)

Si vis pacem, para bellum is a Latin adage translated as, "If you wish for peace, prepare for war"

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 01:04
@ how yes no
You can't be serious. There is no evidence of Celticity in Serbia. The highest confirmed levels of Celtic settlement are in Western Europe - France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and parts of England, followed by the Alpine region.
before falling under Roman empire Serbia was settled by Celtic Scordisci
I argue that part of those people moved up the Danube to Bohemia, from where in 6th century they came back Slavicized (unless they were Slavic(ized) even before)...

only historic source speaking of arrival of modern Serbs to Balkan says they came from land they call in own language Boika where they were called "white". Description of Boika being beyond Turkia (= Hungary of today) and neighbouring Frankia and white Croatia only maps land of Boii (hence Boika) that is Bohemia/Bavaria)..the historic source also clearly says that it is the location where they have also originally dwellt...

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

that is also clear from genetics...
I2a2 has local island of elevated frequences in Bohemia (2-3 times larger than in the rest of Czech republic) and it has higher molecular diversity in Bohemia and Serb populated lands

Bohemia is also perfect place to be source of all I2, as I2a1 is found south of it, I2b north of it, and I2a2 east of it...

btw. Scordisci spread to Serbia roughly from Bohemia area....
their zone of influence was along Danube from Bohemia to Greece...

from area of Scordisci came into Thrace and Asia minor Celtic Serdi who later became Thracian...
Serdi is in my opinion just Thracian version of tribal name Scordisci...

Rusi, Srbi, Česi are Slavic tribal names (Russians, Serbs, Czechs)
thus, suffix -i as in Serdi, while Serdi+ celtic ending -isci = Serdisci

now note that Scordisci has "Sc" in the same as Sclaveni was a way to write Slavs (Sloveni in slavic languages)
thus, already obvious logic gives Scordisci->Sordisci->Sordi.... taken into account that they are Celtic and enter Thrace from area of Celtic Scordisci it is clear that Serdi are thracianized version of tribal name Scordisci

Thracians = russians same as Thyrsenians is used for Rasena (Etruscans)

zanipolo
25-06-11, 01:26
before falling under Roman empire Serbia was settled by Celtic Scordisci
I argue that part of those people moved up the Danube to Bohemia, from where in 6th century they came back Slavicized (unless they were Slavic(ized) even before)...

only historic source speaking of arrival of modern Serbs to Balkan says they came from land they call in own language Boika where they were called "white". Description of Boika being beyond Turkia (= Hungary of today) and neighbouring Frankia and white Croatia only maps land of Boii (hence Boika) that is Bohemia/Bavaria)..the historic source also clearly says that it is the location where they have also originally dwellt...

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false

that is also clear from genetics...
I2a2 has local island of elevated frequences in Bohemia (2-3 times larger than in the rest of Czech republic) and it has higher molecular diversity in Bohemia and Serb populated lands

Bohemia is also perfect place to be source of all I2, as I2a1 is found south of it, I2b north of it, and I2a2 east of it...

btw. Scordisci spread to Serbia roughly from Bohemia area....
their zone of influence was along Danube from Bohemia to Greece...

from area of Scordisci came into Thrace and Asia minor Celtic Serdi who later became Thracian...
Serdi is in my opinion just Thracian version of tribal name Scordisci...

Rusi, Srbi, Česi are Slavic tribal names (Russians, Serbs, Czechs)
thus, suffix -i as in Serdi, while Serdi+ celtic ending -isci = Serdisci

now note that Scordisci has "Sc" in the same as Sclaveni was a way to write Slavs (Sloveni in slavic languages)
thus, already obvious logic gives Scordisci->Sordisci->Sordi.... taken into account that they are Celtic and enter Thrace from area of Celtic Scordisci it is clear that Serdi are thracianized version of tribal name Scordisci

Thracians = russians same as Thyrsenians is used for Rasena (Etruscans)

You do know that the link you provided refers to inforamtion written in and around 900AD !

better to read this
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=6L49AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA13&dq=scordisci&hl=en&ei=jxwFTonnNuWimQXlw7jVDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCsQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=scordisci&f=false

iapetoc
25-06-11, 01:28
bella? what does this mean.

In latin the word bellum is war , so Bellum Pannonicum is war in pannonia against the illyrians 15BC,
ante = before .
The US congress befroe the american civil war still used the phase Antebellum = before the war ( us civil war)

Si vis pacem, para bellum is a Latin adage translated as, "If you wish for peace, prepare for war"

bella bello is white in slavic

I know 'casus Belli'

iapetoc
25-06-11, 01:33
@ how yes no
You can't be serious. There is no evidence of Celticity in Serbia. The highest confirmed levels of Celtic settlement are in Western Europe - France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and parts of England, followed by the Alpine region.

nop
there is anoter P-celtic in Balkans,
scordisci Norici Galatians etc
Celtic blood reach minor asia,
even some tribes from thracian are after debate like Brygians, celtic brigandi

these celtic you mention are q celtic

zanipolo
25-06-11, 01:35
if the serbs came in with anyone , it would be the germanic bastanae , who aligned themselves with the scorscisi

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=ijJ4o2iorhkC&pg=PA124&dq=bastarnae+slavs&hl=en&ei=eB4FTuisAYHMmAXvvdipDQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=5&ved=0CD0Q6AEwBA#v=onepage&q=bastarnae%20slavs&f=false

its a big IF but it can occur as the bastanae border was the ukraine in the east


and this

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=8L2S0kuhDTsC&pg=PA61&dq=bastarnae+sarmatians&hl=en&ei=6R8FTqbFKaPsmAXhnfC6DQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=bastarnae%20sarmatians&f=false

zanipolo
25-06-11, 01:37
nop
there is anoter P-celtic in Balkans,
scordisci Norici Galatians etc
Celtic blood reach minor asia,
even some tribes from thracian are after debate like Brygians, celtic brigandi

these celtic you mention are q celtic

In the ancient times, asia started in asia minor, so the Brygians where classifed asiatics

Taranis
25-06-11, 01:41
when he speaks of meeting with them in europe, Africa and Asia
he clearly speaks of nations wandering not about individuals wandering....
nations wandering implies settlement...

Explain to me why there is zero onomastic evidence of Celtic presence of any kind in North Africa then, whereas in about every other area inhabited by Celts at a given time there is some legacy in place names - even centuries later?

Why does Ptolemy, who meticulously recorded town names across a huge area - not record any Celtic town names in Africa? The answere is simple: because no Celtic peoples ever settled there.


your timeline is inversed....
Berbers partly origin from Garamantes...

That's a complete nonsense, and every linguist, archaeologist and historian is probably going to be out there to kill you for claiming that. The Berber family of languages is part of the Afro-Asiatic languages, along with Egyptian, Semitic, etc. Afro-Asiatic is one of the oldest-attested language families thanks to Egyptian hieroglyphs and Akkadian cuneiform inscriptions (early 3rd millennium BC). Afro-Asiatic is the oldested attested language family (barring Sumerian - which is an isolate language) and it is logical to assume that the other branches of Afro-Asiatic (including Berber branch) were already around in the early 3rd millennium BC. In fact, the earliest attestation of a Berber people the Libu ("Libyans") is attested from the 16th century BC, when the Egyptians made the Libyans their vassals.


@ how yes no
You can't be serious. There is no evidence of Celticity in Serbia. The highest confirmed levels of Celtic settlement are in Western Europe - France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland, Scotland, Wales and parts of England, followed by the Alpine region.

Actually, like the other said, there were Celts in what later became Serbia - at least for a while. The Scordisci were a remnant of the same migration/invasion force that entered Greece, and which, after being defeated, moved further into Anatolia to establish the kingdom of Galatia.

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 02:02
Explain to me why there is zero onomastic evidence of Celtic presence of any kind in North Africa then, whereas in about every other area inhabited by Celts at a given time there is some legacy in place names - even centuries later?
first, did anyone study in detail Celtic onomastic in north Africa... if yes, please send reference...

you talk about "even centuries later", in countries that were conquered by people speaking related languages and that were genetic minority so that population of today still have many layers of Celtic languages... there is partial continuity of population and culture there...

but this was much more than few centuries...we speak about at least around 2000 years ago... and we have completely unrelated languages becoming dominant in the area.....




Why does Ptolemy, who meticulously recorded town names across a huge area - not record any Celtic town names in Africa? The answere is simple: because no Celtic peoples ever settled there.
Celtic people existed much before Ptolemy....
languages develope with time and change....
town names might have sounded quite different than in late Celtic period that you are somewhat familiar with...
can you link to that text of Ptolemy?




That's a complete nonsense, and every linguist, archaeologist and historian is probably going to be out there to kill you for claiming that. The Berber family of languages is part of the Afro-Asiatic languages, along with Egyptian, Semitic, etc. Afro-Asiatic is one of the oldest-attested language families thanks to Egyptian hieroglyphs and Akkadian cuneiform inscriptions (early 3rd millennium BC). Afro-Asiatic is the oldested attested language family (barring Sumerian - which is an isolate language) and it is logical to assume that the other branches of Afro-Asiatic (including Berber branch) were already around in the early 3rd millennium BC. In fact, the earliest attestation of a Berber people the Libu ("Libyans") is attested from the 16th century BC, when the Egyptians made the Libyans their vassals.
you are not reading correctly what I wrote....
I said Berbers (of today is implied) origin partly from Garamantes... which means that in my opinion Garamantes people have assimilated into Berbers contributing I2a1 genetics to them...

Taranis
25-06-11, 02:27
first, did anyone study in detail Celtic onomastic in north Africa... if yes, please send reference...

I cannot pinpoint you to any study because there is none, because there is no evidence of Celtic settlements in North Africa. There are many maps of Celtic name influence, including the one Koch attached in his paper on Tartessian (http://ifc.dpz.es/recursos/publicaciones/29/54/26koch.pdf) (Acta Paleohispanica, page 351). As you may know, I don't agree with Koch on Tartessian, but this is the first map that came to my mind displaying Celtic name evidence (it's also fairly accurate).


you talk about "even centuries later", in countries that were conquered by people speaking related languages and that were genetic minority so that population of today still have many layers of Celtic languages... there is partial continuity of population and culture there...


but this was much more than few centuries...we speak about at least around 2000 years ago... and we have completely unrelated languages becoming dominant in the area.....

Have you considered the possibility that unrelated languages were spoken there all along, and that there never were Celts there? Also, I was (amongst other sources) refering to Ptolemy and Strabo, who lived in the 2nd/1st centuries AD, respectively.


Celtic people existed much before Ptolemy....
languages develope with time and change....
town names might have sounded quite different than in late Celtic period that you are somewhat familiar with...

That's a strawman argument. You say "languages develop and change over time", yet you refuse to accept any of the methodology that helps us to quantify these changes.


can you link to that text of Ptolemy?

Ptolemy mentions the Garamantes in his fourth Book, chapter 6 ("Interior Libya"). He also gives various geographic features in the region, including town names. Ptolemy places them near the Bagrada river (which today is called Medjerda river), and also gives towns there.


you are not reading correctly what I wrote....
I said Berbers (of today is implied) origin partly from Garamantes... which means that in my opinion Garamantes people have assimilated into Berbers contributing I2a1 genetics to them...

More chromosomal tribalism. May I remind you that a while back you also claimed that the Celts originally came from Galatia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26144-R1b-in-Europe-origins-mostly-from-Phrygians-and-Galatians), and that the Germanic peoples came originally from Kerman province, Iran... man, your 'hypotheses' don't get any better...

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 14:11
I cannot pinpoint you to any study because there is none, because there is no evidence of Celtic settlements in North Africa.
ok, so there is no study. it is your educated guess.. nothing more than that...



More chromosomal tribalism. May I remind you that a while back you also claimed that the Celts originally came from Galatia (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26144-R1b-in-Europe-origins-mostly-from-Phrygians-and-Galatians), and that the Germanic peoples came originally from Kerman province, Iran... man, your 'hypotheses' don't get any better...


I still claim that proto-Germanic people (haplogroup I2 - Cimmerians /Gomer) have dwellt in province of Kerman /Germania/Zermanya in Persia, Iran.... path leading there is clear from Y-DNA....I claimed it is origin place because I2* reported in Asia, but it turned out that I2* means just we were too lazy to analyze subbranches... so I can't claim anymore that direction was from province of Kerman to Europe, as it coukld have been other way around... e.g. as Sherdana entered central west Asia region from north, same as Cimmerians later....

but if you look at haplogroup I in Asia
https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

it is clear that persia spread gets wider going north in a way that looks as spreading from Persian gulf towards north, while spreads matching settlement of Serians in northwest China (Serica) and arc of Serians from China to India (Serica in wider sense, and note that Pasthun Sarbans perfectly match lower part of arc) are clear example of conquest from west...



thing that Celts originally came from Galatia was not claimed by me...for that I did quote ancient historian... I can search who was that but I think Josephus...I have just agreed with that due to I2* argument...

what is considered to be Celtic R1b hovever did come to Europe from Asia minor... we can even associate timeline to that... R1b is not native to Celtic areas...

iapetoc
25-06-11, 14:51
In the ancient times, asia started in asia minor, so the Brygians where classifed asiatics

what?

so the Europeans who migrate in Australia are classified Aborigin Australian Vacant Origins


you have a point settlers from Europe to America became Indians etc
Learn the Iroquis language and live in tents and eat tatanca not buffalo

so if I mariied to an american gilr, I will not call her wife but scaw

Taranis
25-06-11, 14:54
ok, so there is no study. it is your educated guess.. nothing more than that...

It's not just an educated guess. Go ahead, read Ptolemy's entry on Interior Libya. In fact, read all his chapters on Africa. None of the names there have anywhere Celtic-sounding names. There's also no "-briga", no "-dunum" and no "-lanum" there (which would be signature Celtic name elements, that you can find across the Celtic-speaking world).


I still claim that proto-Germanic people (haplogroup I2 - Cimmerians /Gomer) have dwellt in province of Kerman /Germania/Zermanya in Persia, Iran.... path leading there is clear from Y-DNA....I claimed it is origin place because I2* reported in Asia, but it turned out that I2* means just we were too lazy to analyze subbranches... so I can't claim anymore that direction was from province of Kerman to Europe, as it coukld have been other way around... e.g. as Sherdana entered central west Asia region from north, same as Cimmerians later....

but if you look at haplogroup I in Asia

https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

it is clear that persia spread gets wider going north in a way that looks as spreading from Persian gulf towards north, while spreads matching settlement of Serians in northwest China (Serica) and arc of Serians from China to India (Serica in wider sense, and note that Pasthun Sarbans perfectly match lower part of arc) are clear example of conquest from west...

I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but this is complete nonsense, because Haplogroup I2a was present in Neolithic France (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/y-chromosome-mtdna-and-autosomal-dna.html) (3000 BC).

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-V7tI_aA8GHE/TeU29_qdqxI/AAAAAAAADzY/gZxm7wef6QM/s1600/treilles.png

In my opinion - and in fact the opinion of probably most people on this board, is that Haplogroup I (and it's subclades) originated in Mesolithic Europe. The fact that I2a shows up in a Neolithic site in Western Europe supports this.

What you claim is also utterly nonsense from the linguistic perspective: the term "Germani" is an exonym (probably coined by the Romans, but actually Celtic in etymology, meaning "neighbour", compare Welsh "ger y man"), and the Germanic people never refered to themselves as "Germani". Tacitus in his "Germania" even states (in chapter 2) that the term "Germani" is newly introduced.

Instead, the Germanic people refered to thsemelves as something akin to "Touta-" ("people", "tribe") - a word which is also attested in Celtic languages (Gaulish "Toutatis" - "tribal father", Irish "Tuath", Welsh "Tud"), Baltic languages (Latvian, Lithuanian "Tauta") and even modern Germanic languages themselves ("Dutch", "Deutsch").


thing that Celts originally came from Galatia was not claimed by me...for that I did quote ancient historian... I can search who was that but I think Josephus...I have just agreed with that due to I2* argument...

You know that the arrival of the Galatians in Anatolia and the events that preceeded it (the failed Celtic invasion of Greece) is a well-recorded event that occured verymuch in historic times (3rd century BC). You cannot claim that well-documented events did not actually happen that way. If you do, you will find yourself in the domain of very strange fringe people:

Phantome Time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phantom_time_hypothesis)
New Chronology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Chronology_(Fomenko))

... which is, of course, complete madness and nonsense. :petrified:


what is considered to be Celtic R1b hovever did come to Europe from Asia minor... we can even associate timeline to that... R1b is not native to Celtic areas...

Yes, R1b obviously wasn't native to the regions later inhabited by Celts, which is very obvious from the samples from Treilles, southern France as I gave them above. Not necessarily from Asia Minor. Might also be Central Asia or Northern Caucasus - we don't really know. In any case R1b isn't exclusively Celtic: the Basque, Germanic and (probably) Pre-Etruscan population of Italy were probably major carriers of R1b too.

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 15:28
I'm sorry to have to tell you this, but this is complete nonsense, because Haplogroup I2a was present in Neolithic France (http://dienekes.blogspot.com/2011/05/y-chromosome-mtdna-and-autosomal-dna.html) (3000 BC).

how exactly does I2a being in Europe 3000BC exclude it from being settled in parts of Asia as well in some points of time?

according to my understanding, when we talk of I2 related tribal names we do also talk about following folks...


138 Few nations have wandered so far and wide as the Galatæ. We meet with them in Europe, Asia, and Africa, under the various names of Galatæ Galatians, Gauls, and Kelts. Galatia, in Asia Minor, was settled by one of these hordes.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=1:chapter= 3&highlight=galatia

well, look at Galicia area in east Europe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Ukraine-Halychyna.png/250px-Ukraine-Halychyna.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Galiz20.gif/250px-Galiz20.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)

those are cores of I2a areas...


http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif



In my opinion - and in fact the opinion of probably most people on this board, is that Haplogroup I (and it's subclades) originated in Mesolithic Europe. The fact that I2a shows up in a Neolithic site in Western Europe supports this.
finding means that I2a is present in Europe at least from 3000 BC.... though I propose older date... but it doesnot in any way say that it was not present in Asia minor and Persia in same, later or earlier period...





What you claim is also utterly nonsense from the linguistic perspective: the term "Germani" is an exonym (probably coined by the Romans, but actually Celtic in etymology), and the Germanic people never refered to themselves as "Germani". Tacitus in his "Germania" even states (in chapter 2) that the term "Germani" is newly introduced.
you just said in fact what I claim all along...
Germani is wrongly attributed to Germans of today, because real Gomer people are Cimmerians/Serians - I2 people... among proto-Germans lived just I2b which could have gave birth to name, as I2b is marker of Germanic people....

I also said that Cimmerians/Gomer are original Celts....
because Josephus claimed Cimmerians are original Celts, and because numerous Roman historians claimed that word German means 'seed'and is probably introduced to denote original Celts...
but thing is German comes from Gomer and is tribal name... it was spread by part of original Celts - I2 Cimmerians who settled Germany (I2b)



Instead, the Germanic people refered to thsemelves as something akin to "Touta-" ("people", "tribe") - a word which is also attested in Celtic languages (Gaulish "Toutatis" - "tribal father", Irish "Tuath", Welsh "Tud"), Baltic languages (Latvian, Lithuanian "Tauta") and even modern Germanic languages themselves ("Dutch", "Deutsch").
cognate in Serbian/Slavic is "ljudi" and is closest to Gothic and Welsh language...
another cognjate is "četa", and is about military unit...



You know that the arrival of the Galatians in Anatolia and the events that preceeded it (the failed Celtic invasion of Greece) is a well-recorded event that occured verymuch in historic times (3rd century BC).
what if that was event of returning to those areas?
point is I2a spread along Danube water system...that naturally lead from Bohemia to Black sea and Asia minor....




Yes, R1b obviously wasn't native to the regions later inhabited by Celts, which is very obvious from the samples from Treilles, southern France as I gave them above. Not necessarily from Asia Minor. Might also be Central Asia or Northern Caucasus - we don't really know. In any case R1b isn't exclusively Celtic: the Basque, Germanic and (probably) Pre-Etruscan population of Italy were probably major carriers of R1b too.
finally, something I can agree with...

Taranis
25-06-11, 18:16
how exactly does I2a being in Europe 3000BC exclude it from being settled in parts of Asia as well in some points of time?

Because it predates the ethnogenesis of the groups in question by such a long time that claiming connections between ethnic groups / places is just ridiculous.


according to my understanding, when we talk of I2 related tribal names we do also talk about following folks...

I've been trying to tell you all along that your purported "tribal" connections are all nonsense.


well, look at Galicia area in east Europe

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Ukraine-Halychyna.png/250px-Ukraine-Halychyna.png[/IMG]
[IMG]http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1b/Galiz20.gif/250px-Galiz20.gif

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)

You know that the area is named for the town of Halych (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halych), and is completely unrelated with the Celts/Galatians. Even the image you uploaded bears the name "Halychyna".


finding means that I2a is present in Europe at least from 3000 BC.... though I propose older date... but it doesnot in any way say that it was not present in Asia minor and Persia in same, later or earlier period...

No, but it shows your connection of some wild migrations of a "Germanic" tribe are inaccurate. If it was, shouldn't the Basques and Sardinians be Germanic, too?! :wary2:


you just said in fact what I claim all along...
Germani is wrongly attributed to Germans of today, because real Gomer people are Cimmerians/Serians - I2 people... among proto-Germans lived just I2b which could have gave birth to name, as I2b is marker of Germanic people....

I also said that Cimmerians/Gomer are original Celts....
because Josephus claimed Cimmerians are original Celts, and because numerous Roman historians claimed that word German means 'seed'and is probably introduced to denote original Celts...
but thing is German comes from Gomer and is tribal name... it was spread by part of original Celts - I2 Cimmerians who settled Germany (I2b)

No, to quote yourself:


I still claim that proto-Germanic people (haplogroup I2 - Cimmerians /Gomer) have dwellt in province of Kerman /Germania/Zermanya in Persia, Iran.... path leading there is clear from Y-DNA....

Which, as I have proven, is complete nonsense because the Germanic people didn't originally refer to themselves as "Germani" (meaning your linguistic connection of tribal/region names is nonsense), and because I2a evidently isn't associated with the Germanic peoples or with the region of Kerman, but clearly was present in Europe already during Neolithic - long before the Germanic languages emerged, or the term "Germani" was applied to them.

Also, "Germani" does not mean "seed". To quote myself:

What you claim is also utterly nonsense from the linguistic perspective: the term "Germani" is an exonym (probably coined by the Romans, but actually Celtic in etymology, meaning "neighbour", compare Welsh "ger y man"), and the Germanic people never refered to themselves as "Germani". Tacitus in his "Germania" even states (in chapter 2) that the term "Germani" is newly introduced.

Additionally: the root word is also attested as *gerro- ("short") in that Proto-Celtic dictionary (http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/EnglishProtoCelticWordlist.pdf).


cognate in Serbian/Slavic is "ljudi" and is closest to Gothic and Welsh language...
another cognjate is "četa", and is about military unit...

Those are not cognates. Serbian "ljudi" is a cognate with the following words in other Slavic languages:

Czech - Lidé
Polish - Ludzie
Belorussian - Liudzi
Slovenian - Ljudje
Russian, Ukrainian - Lyudy

Ostensibly, this is a cognate with the following:
German - "Leute"
Lithuanian - "Liaudis"
Latvian - "Ļaudis"

Apparently, you are completely unaware of sound correspondences. PIE Initial *t generally yields t in most branches of Indo-European (including Slavic), the only real exception is the Germanic languages, where it variably yields th, ð and d - depending on the language.

Gaulish - Touta
Irish - Tuath
Welsh - Tud
Gothic - Thiuda
German - Deutsch
Latvian - Tauta
Latin - Tota/Totus (doesn't mean "tribe" or "people", but "whole" or "all" - compare English "total")

To pick a different word, the word for three. I'm doing this, to show you once again that sound laws have no exception:

Irish - Trí
Welsh - Tri
English - Three
Gothic - Threis
German - Drei
Latvian - Trīs
Latin - Tres
Greek - Tria
Albanian - Tre
Bulgarian, Croatian, Russian, Ukrainian - Tri
Czech - Tři
Polish - Trzy

As you can see, sound laws have no exceptions. I'm not sure what the cognate (of "Touta") in Slavic would be, but it may not be attested - this is something that sometimes happens, for instance, modern Germanic languages have no cognate with the PIE word "Ekwos" (horse), though some of the older ones verymuch had (Anglo-Saxon "Eoh", Gothic "Aihws").


finally, something I can agree with...

It's also clear that R1b (at least, certain subclades of it) is associated with the spread of Celtic-speaking peoples, and that I2a is associated with the Pre-Celtic population of Western Europe.

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 19:10
Because it predates the ethnogenesis of the groups in question by such a long time that claiming connections between ethnic groups / places is just ridiculous.
I guess most of history and of your claims are ridiculous as well in that case.....
we here have genetics as additional clue to reconstructing long time history....




I've been trying to tell you all along that your purported "tribal" connections are all nonsense.
nope, for long time intervals they have much more sense than linguistics...as they are identity of tribes...
they are transfered from one generation to next same as last names in individuals...
while words change much faster on timeline...
that is why genetics is more likely to coincide with tribal names than with languages...


You know that the area is named for the town of Halych (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halych), and is completely unrelated with the Celts/Galatians. Even the image you uploaded bears the name "Halychyna".
sure...
there is complete layer of such Germanic oriented history...
e.g. Russians that got name by Varangian tribe Ros ...just there was no Varangian tribe Ros except among Russians... and of course tribal name Russians have nothing to do with tribal names such as Rosch and Thracians, Rasena (Thyrsenians).. but R1a somehow matches both Rasena and Russians...
different branches of Veneti are completely unrelated people...but somehow we find I2a* exactly and only in places where they lived in Britanny and north of Adriatic

Sherdana sea peoples came from north...they basically started conquest from southeast shores of Black sea, place name left after them is Serbonian bog, but they are Sardinians...yes, right...

it seems almost as if official history is not a science but a political manifesto that reflects interests of powerful ...




No, but it shows your connection of some wild migrations of a "Germanic" tribe are inaccurate. If it was, shouldn't the Basques and Sardinians be Germanic, too?! :wary2:
nope...

Germanic language is wrongly called Germanic...it is Scandinavian...

Sardinians are Cimmerians thus original Celtic origin...
but you have to realize that language timeline is much more fast paced than genetics-tribal/race name relation.....tribal/race name is preserved and genetics are preserved (I2a), but language has changed...

Basques are most R1b people in the world...their link to I2a only exist in some Maciamo's wild guess post...




Which, as I have proven, is complete nonsense because the Germanic people didn't originally refer to themselves as "Germani" (meaning your linguistic connection of tribal/region names is nonsense), and because I2a evidently isn't associated with the Germanic peoples or with the region of Kerman, but clearly was present in Europe already during Neolithic - long before the Germanic languages emerged, or the term "Germani" was applied to them.
hello...
that is what I tell you all along...
Germani is wrongly applied to Germans due to I2b among them..
but real Gomer were Cimmerians... they are original Celts.... that is very clear from combination of historic and genetic evidences I presented...



Also, "Germani" does not mean "seed". To quote myself
why would your wild guess be more valid than writing of ancient Rome historians?



Additionally: the root word is also attested as *gerro- ("short") in that Proto-Celtic dictionary (http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/EnglishProtoCelticWordlist.pdf).
sure, it is attested as 'germ' in english as well...
you can't just take word of a language and blindly use it to give meaning to tribal name... that is ridiculous...




Those are not cognates. Serbian "ljudi" is a cognate with the following words in other Slavic languages:

Czech - Lidé
Polish - Ludzie
Belorussian - Liudzi
Slovenian - Ljudje
Russian, Ukrainian - Lyudy

Ostensibly, this is a cognate with the following:
German - "Leute"
Lithuanian - "Liaudis"
Latvian - "Ļaudis"


so, what is Gothic word for "teuta"?





Gaulish - Touta
Irish - Tuath
Welsh - Tud
Gothic - Thiuda
German - Deutsch
Latvian - Tauta
Latin - Tota/Totus (doesn't mean "tribe" or "people", but "whole" or "all" - compare English "total")




As you can see, sound laws have no exceptions.
lol
you use single example to show that there are no exceptions????
laughable logic...
of course there are exceptions....
languages are live thing, they keep developing... and loan words are passed by people who hear them and try to repeat them in own language...and hearing (ability to repeat heard) of individual people do not always adhere
to general sound laws...
did you ever play as a kid a game in which one tells a word to next one, the next one passes it to next one, and so on... in word loan game those people speak different languages and have no abilities to properly hear it and repeat it...


I'm not sure what the cognate in Slavic would be, but it may not be attested - this is something that sometimes happens, for instance, modern Germanic languages have no cognate with the PIE word "Ekwos" (horse), though some of the older ones verymuch had (Anglo-Saxon "Eoh", Gothic "Aihws").

konj



It's also clear that R1b (at least, certain subclades of it) is associated with the spread of Celtic-speaking peoples, and that I2a is associated with the Pre-Celtic population of Western Europe.
I would not bet on that...
I think R1b is spread of pre-Hittite Hatti from Asia minor to Europe... I guess that tribal name Hatti gave rise to range of Germanic tribal names like Goths, Hatti... and also Getae (Dacians)...

Taranis
25-06-11, 19:45
it seems almost as if official history is not a science but a political manifesto that reflects interests of powerful ...

How does what you deem "official" history about the Anatolian, Berber, Celtic or Germanic peoples (anything, really)... reflect "interests of powerful"? That's complete nonsense. If you genuinely believe that you, are definitely in one line with Anatoly Fomenko and Heribert Illig... :innocent:


Basques are most R1b people in the world...their link to I2a only exist in some Maciamo's wild guess post...

Incorrect. Basques are predominantly R1b, but I2a is in fact the second-most abundant Haplogroup amongst the Basques. Since I2a was also present in the Neolithic, this suggests that the Basques are indeed in part descended from the Neolithic, possibly Mesolithic population.


hello...
that is what I tell you all along...
Germani is wrongly applied to Germans due to I2b among them..
but real Gomer were Cimmerians... they are original Celts.... that is very clear from combination of historic and genetic evidences I presented...

Don't you see that the connection between I2b and the word "Germani" is completely non-existent!? And it's also completely non-related with the Celtic peoples.


why would your wild guess be more valid than writing of ancient Rome historians?

Because the word is attested in modern Celtic languages in a similar expression. Also, you're the one who's doing wild guesses here. You take the word "Seed" and cook up some half-baked story about the "Seed of Gomer", and what not. I'm pretty sure that the biblical Gomer never existed, and that he's just a fabrication along with all the other loony chronologies in the bible. Otherwise you can start tracing everybody to Adam and Eve... :laugh:

Also, let me address the issue of linguistics:

I have provided examples before (you can search my posts if you like, but also check out this (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26431-Etruscans-Illyrians-Pelasgi-tuscans-albanians&p=370714&viewfull=1#post370714), which contains several examples of sound correspondence). I can provide an infinite number of more examples. Sound correspondence has been part of linguistic methodology for over 130 years. You cannot ditch such a long tradition of reliable methodology just to "prove" your wicked relationships between your "chromosomal tribes".

You may also want to read up on this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_correspondence#Origin_and_development_of_the _method)...


I would not bet on that...
I think R1b is spread of pre-Hittite Hatti from Asia minor to Europe... I guess that tribal name Hatti gave rise to range of Germanic tribal names like Goths, Hatti... and also Getae (Dacians)...

Which once again proves your paramount non-unerstanding of how linguistics works.

zanipolo
25-06-11, 22:09
Instead, the Germanic people refered to thsemelves as something akin to "Touta-" ("people", "tribe") - a word which is also attested in Celtic languages (Gaulish "Toutatis" - "tribal father", Irish "Tuath", Welsh "Tud"), Baltic languages (Latvian, Lithuanian "Tauta") and even modern Germanic languages themselves ("Dutch", "Deutsch").

Teutons !?



Yes, R1b obviously wasn't native to the regions later inhabited by Celts, which is very obvious from the samples from Treilles, southern France as I gave them above. Not necessarily from Asia Minor. Might also be Central Asia or Northern Caucasus - we don't really know. In any case R1b isn't exclusively Celtic: the Basque, Germanic and (probably) Pre-Etruscan population of Italy were probably major carriers of R1b too.

Historians say that R1b was brought in by the illyrians that settled in the alps from lake Constance . I am referring to pre-bronze age years

how yes no 2
25-06-11, 22:15
How does what you deem "official" history about the Anatolian, Berber, Celtic or Germanic peoples (anything, really)... reflect "interests of powerful"? That's complete nonsense. If you genuinely believe that you, are definitely in one line with Anatoly Fomenko and Heribert Illig...
sure I am in line with some looneys and and you are in line with Occam...


Incorrect. Basques are predominantly R1b, but I2a is in fact the second-most abundant Haplogroup amongst the Basques. Since I2a was also present in the Neolithic, this suggests that the Basques are indeed in part descended from the Neolithic, possibly Mesolithic population.
.I'll put focus on "suggest" in your claim...

it can also be by assimilating previous population in later times than you propose...
note that I2a1 is also widely present in some other parts of Spain..


Don't you see that the connection between I2b and the word "Germani" is completely non-existent!? And it's also completely non-related with the Celtic peoples.
lol, guess you expect linguistic relationship between word I2b and word Germani...
there is clear relationship of movement of germanic tribes with existance of I2b...
that is widely known...



Because the word is attested in modern Celtic languages in a similar expression. Also, you're the one who's doing wild guesses here. You take the word "Seed" and cook up some half-baked story about the "Seed of Gomer", and what not. I'm pretty sure that the biblical Gomer never existed, and that he's just a fabrication along with all the other loony chronologies in the bible. Otherwise you can start tracing everybody to Adam and Eve... :laugh:
nope, I do not take word "seed"...I just said that I read that ancient historians from Rome were translating it that way... I personally do not think it meant "seed"... but point of saying that was not in the meaning of the word, but in account made by those historians that it was word based on "seed"in order to identify original Celts... so, claim doesnot come from me, but is a piece of puzzle that fits nice in my theory of I2 haplogroup Cimmerians.. as it shows that German was word used to denote original Celts and Gomer was alternative name of Cimmerians....

how difficult is it for you to understand actual meaning of few simple sentences?


Also, let me address the issue of linguistics:

I have provided examples before (you can search my posts if you like, but also check out this (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26431-Etruscans-Illyrians-Pelasgi-tuscans-albanians&p=370714&viewfull=1#post370714), which contains several examples of sound correspondence). I can provide an infinite number of more examples. Sound correspondence has been part of linguistic methodology for over 130 years. You cannot ditch such a long tradition of reliable methodology just to "prove" your wicked relationships between your "chromosomal tribes".

it is elementary logic that you seems to lack...
you can make million examples, but that doesnot prove that there is no exception to the rule....


You may also want to read up on this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound_correspondence#Origin_and_development_of_the _method)...
thanks...
I am familiar with existence of sound correspondence laws, but I find it funny that you think it covers 100% of cases...
that was point of my critique....

Gothic word for people is very close to Slavic one.... it can be exception or a rule you are not aware of... and there is another cognate of same word "četa" - which is also about way to denote group, but it is related to military group...


Which once again proves your paramount non-unerstanding of how linguistics works.
unlike you, I never claimed to be knowledgeable in linguistics... but based on your posts about linguistic rules on some other threads e.g. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26474-Germanic-and-Proto-Slavic I am very sure that your knowledge of it is extremely limited and superficial, and that you apply it in extremely biased way...

Taranis
25-06-11, 22:17
Teutons !?

Yes, the word "Teuton" is also a cognate with this. I forgot to mention this. The term gets to used very inconsistently in English, however: as in "Cimbri and Teutones", "Teutonic Knights" and as a poetic term for the Germans, or even the Germanic peoples. That may be why I don't tend to mention this, I suppose. :laughing:


Historians say that R1b was brought in by the illyrians that settled in the alps from lake Constance . I am referring to pre-bronze age years

Which Historians? Tell me one historian that talks about genetics, and who would claim something like that... :confused2:

There's also no evidence for Illyrians around lake Constance, or in fact, anywhere north of the Alps. The area was, as far as recorded, inhabited by Celtic peoples, and it is indeed very close to the Hallstatt/Celtic core area. How would anybody claim that? :startled:

zanipolo
25-06-11, 22:21
so, what is Gothic word for "teuta"?





http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=teutonic


from *teuta, the common PIE word for "people" (cf. Lith. tauto, Osc. touto, O.Ir. tuath, Goth. þiuda

Is the gothic a Piuda, Biuda or ?? what is that symbol

zanipolo
25-06-11, 22:30
Which Historians? Tell me one historian that talks about genetics, and who would claim something like that... :confused2:

There's also no evidence for Illyrians around lake Constance, or in fact, anywhere north of the Alps. The area was, as far as recorded, inhabited by Celtic peoples, and it is indeed very close to the Hallstatt/Celtic core area. How would anybody claim that? :startled:


many historians with archeological findings have found illyrians items from lake constance , across modern austria and east, south-east of there.
The celtic start area was southern germany and the gemanic alps. since celtic is a superior language than what illyrian is, the celtic migration firstly took all the alps, as time went on the celtic vocabulary went in all illyric lands. Illyric and its dialects is a weak language

Taranis
25-06-11, 22:45
nope, I do not take word "seed"...I just said that I read that ancient historians from Rome were translating it that way... I personally do not think it meant "seed"... but point of saying that was not in the meaning of the word, but in account made by those historians that it was word based on "seed"in order to identify original Celts... so, claim doesnot come from me, but is a piece of puzzle that fits nice in my theory of I2 haplogroup Cimmerians.. as it shows that German was word used to denote original Celts and Gomer was alternative name of Cimmerians....

how difficult is it for you to understand actual meaning of few simple sentences?

What you claim makes no sense, and nothing fits in your "nice" theory. We established before (Tacitus) that the term "Germani" was a newly-coined word. The Celts refered to themselves as "Keltoi", not "Germani". There's no link between the Celts and Cimmerians. Strabo claims that several authors in his time thought there's a link between the (Proto-Germanic?) Cimbri and the Cimmerians, but points out that he doubts this. Haplogroup I2 was already present in Western Europe in 3000 BC, about 2200 years before the Cimmerians are first mentioned. That's the end of the story. No connection.


it is elementary logic that you seems to lack...
you can make million examples, but that doesnot prove that there is no exception to the rule....

The only thing that I don't understand is your intransigence.


thanks...
I am familiar with existence of sound correspondence laws, but I find it funny that you think it covers 100% of cases...
that was point of my critique....

Well, if you are familiar with it, then why don't you use it?!

As for covering 100% of the cases. I did not make that claim, but linguists did make that claim before me, and it's been the backbone of linguistics for over a century, and basically ALL relationships that were established between languages are based, and I would say that empirical evidence suggests this is really the case. Also, when seemingly, words do not obey to sound laws, these must be conditioned by other laws. Textbook example of that is Verner's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verner%27s_Law) in the Germanic languages.

The beautiful part is, which I have been trying to convey, is that the obedience/non-obdience to specific sound laws allows us to relatively time when a certain word enters the vocabulary of a language and when not.


Gothic word for people is very close to Slavic one.... it can be exception or a rule you are not aware of... and there is another cognate of same word "četa" - which is also about way to denote group, but it is related to military group...

Actually, the word is "Keta"/"Ceta" (or a variety thereof) in most other Slavic languages. Slavic Initial "K" does not correspond with Gothic "Th".


unlike you, I never claimed to be knowledgeable in linguistics... but based on your posts about linguistic rules on some other threads e.g. http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26474-Germanic-and-Proto-Slavic I am very sure that your knowledge of it is extremely limited and superficial, and that you apply it in extremely biased way...

I'm not applying it in any superficial way. If I am guilty of something in that thread, it is believing that a few visualizing key examples would convince peoples. And you only consider it "biased" because it does not fit in line with your world views about Slavic people dominating world history. I have done the same earlier for Celtic borrowings into Proto-Germanic, and PIE borrowings into Finnic.

iapetoc
25-06-11, 23:38
many historians with archeological findings have found illyrians items from lake constance , across modern austria and east, south-east of there.
The celtic start area was southern germany and the gemanic alps. since celtic is a superior language than what illyrian is, the celtic migration firstly took all the alps, as time went on the celtic vocabulary went in all illyric lands. Illyric and its dialects is a weak language


Illyrian items from lake constance to modern Austria??? LOL

nope it was a Usa item, that was manufacture in italy by chinese parts under authority of German produactions following ISo 9000

so next thread Illyrian - Celt parallels and the God Illuwanga ?
or illyrians are helvetian origin?


ok Zanipolo tell the Illyrian dialects today?
or were the illyrian language is spoken?

let me quess slovenia? dalmatia? bosnia? montenegro? albania?

so they are the illyrian dialects? right?

nope Illuwanga had a small house in lake constanza to go at holidays time,

zanipolo
25-06-11, 23:51
Illyrian items from lake constance to modern Austria??? LOL

nope it was a Usa item, that was manufacture in italy by chinese parts under authority of German produactions following ISo 9000

so next thread Illyrian - Celt parallels and the God Illuwanga ?
or illyrians are helvetian origin?


ok Zanipolo tell the Illyrian dialects today?
or were the illyrian language is spoken?

your stupidy is beyond belief, read strabo

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html
part 1

So then, let me speak first of the Illyrian parts, which join the Ister and that part of p253the Alps which lies between Italy and Germany and begins at the lake268 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#note268) which is near the country of the Vindelici, Rhaeti, and Toenii.269 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#note269)

268 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#ref268) Lake Constance (the Bodensee), see 7.1.5.

269 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#ref269) Meineke emends "Toenii" (otherwise unknown) to "Helvetii," the word one would expect here (cp. 7.1.5); but (on textual grounds) "Toygeni" (cp.7.2.2) is almost certainly the correct reading.

And what is this USA rubbish you quote, I have been there and so, I have been to asian countries as well, so what is this infatuation with the USA you have?

iapetoc
26-06-11, 00:09
your stupidy is beyond belief, read strabo

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html
part 1

So then, let me speak first of the Illyrian parts, which join the Ister and that part of p253the Alps which lies between Italy and Germany and begins at the lake268 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#note268) which is near the country of the Vindelici, Rhaeti, and Toenii.269 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#note269)

268 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#ref268) Lake Constance (the Bodensee), see 7.1.5.

269 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#ref269) Meineke emends "Toenii" (otherwise unknown) to "Helvetii," the word one would expect here (cp. 7.1.5); but (on textual grounds) "Toygeni" (cp.7.2.2) is almost certainly the correct reading.

And what is this USA rubbish you quote, I have been there and so, I have been to asian countries as well, so what is this infatuation with the USA you have?


Illyrian items from lake constanza

yes offcourse illyrians were in lake constanza

better read Pliny and natural History

probably another Albanian who does not understand the Celts the illyrians and like others is creating whatever comes to head,

another story the Illyricum and iapyges and liburni another story the celts and another story the illyrians

better read what you write illyrian items from lake constanza
mean were manufacture in constanza by today albanians? who lost them in austria in their way to return back to taulanti !!!!!!!!!!!!
wowwwwwwwwwwwwwww



GODS

the usa is the same rubish you write

tell me who Arcaiologist found illyrian items in Constanza?
and who Historian tells that?
Zeus10?


the ones you call Illyrians are not understand it, Liburni celtic? Norici Illyrians?

the ones Stravo calls illyrians are after Illyricum
pliny gives a better explanation

besides tell him he is away far,
Vindelici are east of Oenus (Inn) river
and south of Raetian
that lake is not constance

even in the bellow map there is no lake constance

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Prefecture.png

sory but the writer probably pushed Illyricum to far

that lake could near Hunagry or austria


BESIDES STRABO SAIS ABOUT ILLYRICUM PARTS

NOT ILLYRIAN NATION
NOT ILLYRIAN ITEMS

the myth of Ilyrian nation from slovenia to Greece is made by Albanians at Hodza times


sory I am very nervous today
electricity is many times cut off due to strike and all day I hear my UPS

but plz from division or national parts parts of illyricum to created an illyrian nation to lake constance
or illyrian items (swords tools) from constance!!!!!!!!

I don't know I believe that is most easy that mohamet was ethiopean,

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 00:24
What you claim makes no sense, and nothing fits in your "nice" theory. We established before (Tacitus) that the term "Germani" was a newly-coined word. The Celts refered to themselves as "Keltoi", not "Germani". There's no link between the Celts and Cimmerians. Strabo claims that several authors in his time thought there's a link between the (Proto-Germanic?) Cimbri and the Cimmerians, but points out that he doubts this. Haplogroup I2 was already present in Western Europe in 3000 BC, about 2200 years before the Cimmerians are first mentioned. That's the end of the story. No connection.

actually, everything fits perfectly...
but it is hard to explain big picture to someone who is capable to zoom only on few adjacent pixels and if he cannot map them to object patterns previously known to him than the whole picture does not exist for him......

from http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26546-Dacian-Language&p=373691&viewfull=1#post373691



"-budz" means "penis"
compare Gaulish "Bu∂∂uton". "∂∂" here represents the so-called "Tau Gallicum", and the "dz" in Noric probably represented the same sound.


I find it curious that already several Celtic cognjates are kind of slang in Serbian and not proper language....

e.g. budža is in slang used for penis and for someone reach and powerful ....

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

iapetoc and zanipolo, please stick to the topic....
this topic is not directly related to illyrians...
if you want to mention them on this topic, you need to relate them to both Serbs and Celts...
if you keep spamming here about Illyrians unrelated to the topic, I will report such posts and ask administrator to react...

iapetoc
26-06-11, 02:05
Guys since all claim linguistics

That is original celtic Gael

Catoues caletoi
Urit namantas anrimius
Ro- te isarnilin -urextont,
Au glannabi rhenus
Ad ardus alpon,
Tou' magisa matua
Tou' brigas iuerilonas.
Budinas bardon
Clouos canenti
Anuanon anmaruon,
Cauaron colliton,
Adio- biuotutas -robirtont
Uolin cridili
Are rilotuten atrilas.
A ulati, mon atron,
A brogi'm cumbrogon!
Exs tou' uradiu uorrobirt
Cenetlon clouision
Cauaron caleton.
A blatu blande bitos biuon.
A ‚m' atriia,
A blatu blande bitos biuon!
A ‚m' atriia,
Tou' mnas et genetas,
Tigernias, tecas,
Tou' uiroi uertamoi
In sose cantle cingeton
In- gutoues -beronti.
Cante cladibu in lame
Exsrextos canumi:


since somes believe is connected with Serbian or Illyrian or whatever plz go ahead,
I my shelf who know transalation it is hard.
I just deleted 2 words

a small part translation to archaistic

Tou' mnas et genetas,
Tigernias, tecas

σου κοραι τε και γυναι (-και)
αθιχερται, δικαιαι
the αθιχερται in modern and koine is αθικται and means not exactly the same
another word could be αψογαι and αρισται but the most proper is a rare Ποτνιαι

modern greek
οι κορες σου και οι γυναικες σου
ευγενεις, δικαιες

english

your daughters and women
Nobles fair

zanipolo
26-06-11, 02:13
Illyrian items from lake constanza

yes offcourse illyrians were in lake constanza

better read Pliny and natural History

probably another Albanian who does not understand the Celts the illyrians and like others is creating whatever comes to head,

another story the Illyricum and iapyges and liburni another story the celts and another story the illyrians

better read what you write illyrian items from lake constanza
mean were manufacture in constanza by today albanians? who lost them in austria in their way to return back to taulanti !!!!!!!!!!!!
wowwwwwwwwwwwwwww



GODS

the usa is the same rubish you write

tell me who Arcaiologist found illyrian items in Constanza?
and who Historian tells that?
Zeus10?


the ones you call Illyrians are not understand it, Liburni celtic? Norici Illyrians?

the ones Stravo calls illyrians are after Illyricum
pliny gives a better explanation

besides tell him he is away far,
Vindelici are east of Oenus (Inn) river
and south of Raetian
that lake is not constance

even in the bellow map there is no lake constance

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c7/Prefecture.png

sory but the writer probably pushed Illyricum to far

that lake could near Hunagry or austria


BESIDES STRABO SAIS ABOUT ILLYRICUM PARTS

NOT ILLYRIAN NATION
NOT ILLYRIAN ITEMS

the myth of Ilyrian nation from slovenia to Greece is made by Albanians at Hodza times


sory I am very nervous today
electricity is many times cut off due to strike and all day I hear my UPS

but plz from division or national parts parts of illyricum to created an illyrian nation to lake constance
or illyrian items (swords tools) from constance!!!!!!!!

I don't know I believe that is most easy that mohamet was ethiopean,

LOL, i am not albanian and I am not american. LOL

your map is over 1000 years wrong. I stated pre-bronze age and you give me a map of ???//, You might as well used today's map.

zanipolo
26-06-11, 02:25
What you claim makes no sense, and nothing fits in your "nice" theory. We established before (Tacitus) that the term "Germani" was a newly-coined word. The Celts refered to themselves as "Keltoi", not "Germani". There's no link between the Celts and Cimmerians. Strabo claims that several authors in his time thought there's a link between the (Proto-Germanic?) Cimbri and the Cimmerians, but points out that he doubts this. Haplogroup I2 was already present in Western Europe in 3000 BC, about 2200 years before the Cimmerians are first mentioned. That's the end of the story. No connection.



The only thing that I don't understand is your intransigence.



Well, if you are familiar with it, then why don't you use it?!

As for covering 100% of the cases. I did not make that claim, but linguists did make that claim before me, and it's been the backbone of linguistics for over a century, and basically ALL relationships that were established between languages are based, and I would say that empirical evidence suggests this is really the case. Also, when seemingly, words do not obey to sound laws, these must be conditioned by other laws. Textbook example of that is Verner's Law (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verner%27s_Law) in the Germanic languages.

The beautiful part is, which I have been trying to convey, is that the obedience/non-obdience to specific sound laws allows us to relatively time when a certain word enters the vocabulary of a language and when not.



Actually, the word is "Keta"/"Ceta" (or a variety thereof) in most other Slavic languages. Slavic Initial "K" does not correspond with Gothic "Th".



I'm not applying it in any superficial way. If I am guilty of something in that thread, it is believing that a few visualizing key examples would convince peoples. And you only consider it "biased" because it does not fit in line with your world views about Slavic people dominating world history. I have done the same earlier for Celtic borrowings into Proto-Germanic, and PIE borrowings into Finnic.

as part of this triangulation of languages, I still claim that there was no direct link between celtic and slavic, but links firstly between germanic and slavic due to the bastanae - sarmatian vicinity and the celtic and illyrian merging of words.
The goths being east-germanic/nordic peoples would also have had an influence on bringing the slavic language into the balkans when they resided on the northern area of the black sea.
There are even suggestions that some small portions of sarmatian/slavs per part of the gothic invasion army........usually the cannon-fodder

as per
Pokorny, supported it by claiming that the suggested connection between Lat. aes (copper) and Skr. ayas (metal) with Celtic *isarnon is wrong, because the latter is not of Celtic origin, but the long "i" of the Celtic word is best explained if we regard Illyrian as the source of the Celtic term. He claimed that this was supported by archaeological data and concluding that the Illyrian word for iron passed into Celtic when Celts first learned the use of the new metal by Illyrians (Pokorny, J. Sprachforschung, XLVI, 1914, p. 293).

also read
Katičić, Radoslav (1976). Ancient Languages of the Balkans, Part One (http://books.google.com/books?id=32I1SQAACAAJ).

Benać, Alojz (1964). Symposium sur la Délimitation Territoriale et Chronologique des Illyriens à l’Epoque Préhistorique (http://books.google.com/books?id=fFmTAAAAIAAJ)

a Hungarian ,János Harmatta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1nos_Harmatta) placed Illyrians in South Germany and the Alpine region. Tribes living there would have spoken Illyrian which deferred from Latin, German and Venetic. Around 1300 BC, the people of the Barrow-mound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus) culture, the Illyrians, moved eastwards and then southwards along the Danube (the first Illyr migration) and in 750 BC the people of the Hallstatt C culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture) expanded toward western Hungary (the second Illyr migration) which gathered Pannonian tribes to itself.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Illyrian_theories#cite_note-11) 1000 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_BC) is considered the beginning of the historical peoples we call the Illyrians.

When we consider that slavic is a "newer" language for the balkans is when we will find the truth

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 03:19
Guys since all claim linguistics
...
since somes believe is connected with Serbian or Illyrian or whatever plz go ahead,
I my shelf who know transalation it is hard.
I just deleted 2 words

I will not even try because I was comparing vocabularies and I know that cognjates are not nearly close to be able to translate.....

it is not black or white issue....
celtic genetic origin doesnot mean speaking celtic language
look at France....


connected languages doesnot imply same language....
I am talking about shared words in serbian and Celtic and possible origin of shared words... to translate text amount of shared words should be like 70%, but in this case it is few percentes at most... still many of the words seem not to be PIE which for me indicates inclusion of celtic speakers in serbian/slavic or other way around...

in fact, I was expecting more shared words.... but thing is languages do have fast pace of changing....


well, give original Homer's texts to average Greek person.... he will not have a clue...

Taranis
26-06-11, 13:58
as part of this triangulation of languages, I still claim that there was no direct link between celtic and slavic, but links firstly between germanic and slavic due to the bastanae - sarmatian vicinity and the celtic and illyrian merging of words.

Obviously, there is no direct link between Celtic and Germanic languages. The reason is twofold: first, the Celts didn't expand far enough eastwards to encounter Proto-Slavic peoples (they obviously encountered the various Paleo-Balkan peoples, however). Secondly, by the time the Slavs actually enter areas formerly held by Celtic-speaking peoples (ie, during the Migration Period), the continental Celtic languages are completely extinct.

Otherwise, as I mentioned before, there's clearly a significant number of borrowings from Germanic into Proto-Slavic. I'm going to revisit that in more detail in order to refine it, because I am convinced now that the borrowing actually stem from different stages of contact with Germanic languages. Most borrowings were from Gothic (or otherwise East Germanic) into Proto-Slavic, but I now suspect some borrowings might also be from Proto-Germanic instead.

What is also clear is that the Romans had no direct contact with the early Slavs, and Latin-derived loanwords into Proto-Slavic must have also entered via mediation by other peoples.


The goths being east-germanic/nordic peoples would also have had an influence on bringing the slavic language into the balkans when they resided on the northern area of the black sea.
There are even suggestions that some small portions of sarmatian/slavs per part of the gothic invasion army........usually the cannon-fodder

What? Cannon-fodder? That's... crazy... :useless:
Who would claim something like that. :petrified:


as per
Pokorny, supported it by claiming that the suggested connection between Lat. aes (copper) and Skr. ayas (metal) with Celtic *isarnon is wrong, because the latter is not of Celtic origin, but the long "i" of the Celtic word is best explained if we regard Illyrian as the source of the Celtic term. He claimed that this was supported by archaeological data and concluding that the Illyrian word for iron passed into Celtic when Celts first learned the use of the new metal by Illyrians (Pokorny, J. Sprachforschung, XLVI, 1914, p. 293).

also read
Katičić, Radoslav (1976). Ancient Languages of the Balkans, Part One (http://books.google.com/books?id=32I1SQAACAAJ).

Benać, Alojz (1964). Symposium sur la Délimitation Territoriale et Chronologique des Illyriens à l’Epoque Préhistorique (http://books.google.com/books?id=fFmTAAAAIAAJ)

a Hungarian ,János Harmatta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1nos_Harmatta) placed Illyrians in South Germany and the Alpine region. Tribes living there would have spoken Illyrian which deferred from Latin, German and Venetic. Around 1300 BC, the people of the Barrow-mound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus) culture, the Illyrians, moved eastwards and then southwards along the Danube (the first Illyr migration) and in 750 BC the people of the Hallstatt C culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture) expanded toward western Hungary (the second Illyr migration) which gathered Pannonian tribes to itself.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Illyrian_theories#cite_note-11) 1000 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_BC) is considered the beginning of the historical peoples we call the Illyrians.

Sorry, what? "Pan-Illyrian theories". :confused2: That is complete nonsense, and also completely outdated (notice that Pokorny posted this in 1914). As I stated before, there is no evidence for Illyrians north of the Alps. The Hallstatt Culture clearly was a southern outgrowth of the earlier Urnfield Culture.


When we consider that slavic is a "newer" language for the balkans is when we will find the truth

Now that's pretty obvious. There were no Slavic languages spoken on the Balkans before the migrations period.

iapetoc
26-06-11, 14:29
LOL, i am not albanian and I am not american. LOL

your map is over 1000 years wrong. I stated pre-bronze age and you give me a map of ???//, You might as well used today's map.

what you give strabo books and now you me about 1000 years old?
when strabo lived? and what years is that map?

I guess in mind is Illyrian = celtic and celtic = illyrian

At least you could say I make a mistake when I wrote Illyrian items from Constance (illyrian swords and poterry from constnce?)

Pre bronze age!!!!!! so we kick away strabo now and we name illyria the constance?

can you give us the source?



your stupidy is beyond belief, read strabo

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html
part 1

So then, let me speak first of the Illyrian parts, which join the Ister and that part of p253the Alps which lies between Italy and Germany and begins at the lake268 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#note268) which is near the country of the Vindelici, Rhaeti, and Toenii.269 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#note269)

268 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#ref268) Lake Constance (the Bodensee), see 7.1.5.

269 (http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html#ref269) Meineke emends "Toenii" (otherwise unknown) to "Helvetii," the word one would expect here (cp. 7.1.5); but (on textual grounds) "Toygeni" (cp.7.2.2) is almost certainly the correct reading.

And what is this USA rubbish you quote, I have been there and so, I have been to asian countries as well, so what is this infatuation with the USA you have?


my stupidity!!!!!!!!!!



as part of this triangulation of languages, I still claim that there was no direct link between celtic and slavic, but links firstly between germanic and slavic due to the bastanae - sarmatian vicinity and the celtic and illyrian merging of words.
The goths being east-germanic/nordic peoples would also have had an influence on bringing the slavic language into the balkans when they resided on the northern area of the black sea.
There are even suggestions that some small portions of sarmatian/slavs per part of the gothic invasion army........usually the cannon-fodder

as per
Pokorny, supported it by claiming that the suggested connection between Lat. aes (copper) and Skr. ayas (metal) with Celtic *isarnon is wrong, because the latter is not of Celtic origin, but the long "i" of the Celtic word is best explained if we regard Illyrian as the source of the Celtic term. He claimed that this was supported by archaeological data and concluding that the Illyrian word for iron passed into Celtic when Celts first learned the use of the new metal by Illyrians (Pokorny, J. Sprachforschung, XLVI, 1914, p. 293).

also read
Katičić, Radoslav (1976). Ancient Languages of the Balkans, Part One (http://books.google.com/books?id=32I1SQAACAAJ).

Benać, Alojz (1964). Symposium sur la Délimitation Territoriale et Chronologique des Illyriens à l’Epoque Préhistorique (http://books.google.com/books?id=fFmTAAAAIAAJ)

a Hungarian ,János Harmatta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%A1nos_Harmatta) placed Illyrians in South Germany and the Alpine region. Tribes living there would have spoken Illyrian which deferred from Latin, German and Venetic. Around 1300 BC, the people of the Barrow-mound (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumulus) culture, the Illyrians, moved eastwards and then southwards along the Danube (the first Illyr migration) and in 750 BC the people of the Hallstatt C culture (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallstatt_culture) expanded toward western Hungary (the second Illyr migration) which gathered Pannonian tribes to itself.[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan-Illyrian_theories#cite_note-11) 1000 BC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_BC) is considered the beginning of the historical peoples we call the Illyrians.

When we consider that slavic is a "newer" language for the balkans is when we will find the truth


why you are mixing things?

try to distinguish the words,

Illyrians is the Illyrian proprie dicti,
Illyricum is a geografical province

Illyria was habited by Celts

but lake constance was habited by Illyrians?

make clear that

greeks name Celtic area all the north from montenegro to pannoni
and semi celt today albania

also modern Greek are connecting Brygian with Briganti Celtic (under discuss), or an Iranian R1a tribe Skudet, Irano-Scuthian speaking

it is another word illyria, another illyricum and another Keltos

the way you write is Illyrian moves to lake constance and then returned,

But who Illyrians ???

the Iapodes? the Albanians? the Carians? the carantanians? the liburni?

All these are different speaking people,

Celts move to Illyria but Illyrian does not mean celt


simply if I am stupid and realize what you writing, then I wonder what the smarts would think


you tell me to read Strabo I read strabo I find mistakes that your author had make (vindelici infront of Oennus (inn) I give map of strabo times and you tell me that this map is 1000 years old?

who knows maybe strabo wrote about geography 1000 years before of him

I Believe instead of call me stupid, just look at the mirror


Greeks mention a celtic invasion at about 1600-2000 Bc estimation times repelled by Illyrus,
so they name the Land Illyria after his Victory against Celts

how the the invaders have same name with defenders????

Taranis
26-06-11, 14:52
Actually, lake Constance was not inhabited by Illyrians. Strabo just lumps the land north of the alps and adjacent to the Danube to Illyria. He's very precise about the people who lived adjacent to Lake Constance: Toenii (probably the Toygenii, a Helvetian tribe), the Vindelici and the Rhaetians. The former two were obviously Celtic, the latter spoke a language akin to Etruscan.

There's also "Brigantion" (Bregenz), which was the main town of the Vindelici Briganti.

iapetoc
26-06-11, 15:14
Actually, lake Constance was not inhabited by Illyrians. Strabo just lumps the land north of the alps and adjacent to the Danube to Illyria. He's very precise about the people who lived adjacent to Lake Constance: Toenii (probably the Toygenii, a Helvetian tribe), the Vindelici and the Rhaetians. The former two were obviously Celtic, the latter spoke a language akin to Etruscan.

There's also "Brigantion" (Bregenz), which was the main town of the Vindelici Briganti.


east of Inn
that lake is east of Inn, not west of Inn the Toenii is a guess that are Helveti due to toygenii
but that lake could be also in todays austrian lakes who are 1 day and night from vindelici
and since Bigest illyria starts from about today wienn or nearby austria

the toenii is a guess,

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 15:32
Actually, lake Constance was not inhabited by Illyrians. Strabo just lumps the land north of the alps and adjacent to the Danube to Illyria. He's very precise about the people who lived adjacent to Lake Constance: Toenii (probably the Toygenii, a Helvetian tribe), the Vindelici and the Rhaetians. The former two were obviously Celtic, the latter spoke a language akin to Etruscan.

There's also "Brigantion" (Bregenz), which was the main town of the Vindelici Briganti.

According to the Strabo's text, Roman province of Illirya itself is mostly populated with Pannonians and other people, not by Illyrians... thing is Romans deliberately made weird borders of provinces in order to confuse national identities of people and create big melting pot... that strategy worked quite well...for them... but creates wrong identifications later...

how yes no 2
26-06-11, 16:20
there is wide agreement among Slavic ethnologists and linguists that tribal name "Srbi" (Serbs) is not a word of slavic origin...

personally I find word "Srp" which means "sickle" a possible slavic root.... I see that google translate in fact translate "srp" as "crescent" as well... think it was a bit more arhaic usage.... so probably "srp" is about shape of crescent and sickle... e.g. as the ones in Serbian coat of arms

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/7/7b/Coat_of_arms_of_Serbia_small_%282004_-_2010%29.svg/330px-Coat_of_arms_of_Serbia_small_%282004_-_2010%29.svg.png

I do not think coat of arms is copy of Byzantine Paleologi dinasty one with 4 'B' instead of sickles ...
(King of Kings, Ruling Over Rulers (Βασιλεὺς Βασιλέων Βασιλεύων Βασιλευόντων/Βασιλεῦσι, Basileus Basileon Basileuon Basileuonton/Basileusi).)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/f4/Palaiologos-Dynasty.svg/120px-Palaiologos-Dynasty.svg.png

Paleologi dinasty origin from theme of Macedonia that was heavily settled by Serbs at the time... so, the coat of arms pattern may have travelled other way around..... anyway key difference is in "sickle" vs. letter 'B'

look at coat of arms of 'house of Mrnjavcevic" Serbian nobles from Macedonia from 13th and 14th century

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Herb_mrnjavcevici.jpg

btw. the Celtic cross is similar pattern of 4 "sickles" around a cross

in simple version sickles are turned other way around - towards interior
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e5/CelticCross.svg/100px-CelticCross.svg.png

in more complex versions you can also see inner sickles oriented towards exterior that make cross - and those inner sickles are identical as the one on coat of arms of house of Mrnjavcevici given above...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/98/Monasterboice_12.jpg/400px-Monasterboice_12.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/a/ad/Gaelic_Athletic_Association.png


btw. note the sickle/crescent as horns on helmets of Sherden/sherdana sea peoples
whose tribal name is origin for place name Serbonian bog in Egypt...

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples18.jpg
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples17.jpg
http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/images/seapeoples14.jpg

now, compare Sherdana with non-Greek names for Scordus mountain , and it is clear that Scordisci is Greek exonym of Celtic version of some tribal name probably of Shardana....

Scordus in Greek
Šar planina (Šar mountain) in south Slavic
Shar Dagh in Ottoman Turkish
Malet e Sharrit in Albanian
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C5%A0ar_Mountains

in fact isn't turkish or Asia minor word Shar Dagh almost the same as Shardana?


look at Thraco-Cimmerians findings in Europe
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/75/Thraco-Cimmerian.png

I2a spread, west linear potery spread, Celts, early Slavs spread... same directions and locations...
.....
State of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... Seneca's Serians in Europe are mentioned in relation to Danube (daring to cross frozen Danube on feet) and in relation to Scythians (rulling over them)... Scythians are R1a, thus proto-Slavs, so Serians/Zeruiani can be only I2a2... which is haplogroup dominant in Serbs....
....

compare Šar planina,Shar Dagh, and Malet e Sharrit with tribal name Serians/Serres...

to Sherdana related Lycians (whose several later rulers were called Sarpe-don) are Lukka sea peoples... note that Asia minor is area of influence of Cimmerians... note that some historians think that Cimmerians were original Celts...


that in Cappadocia where Cimmerians settled, Strabo finds white Syrians and now we find I2a in Kurds...


much later Byzantine emperor writes that Serbs origin from white Serbs who came from area (whose description only fits to Bohemia) where they have also originally dwellt...

while in same time Bavarian geographer writes that state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it.... aren't Zeruiani clearly the same as Seneca's Serians (also known as Serres)...aren't they likely same people as Cimmerians / white Syrians? and what about white Syrians / white Serbs?
....


Josephus related the Biblical figure Gomer to Galatia (or perhaps to Gaul in general). "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, [Galls,] but were then called Gomerites." Antiquities of the Jews, I:6. Others have related Gomer to Cimmerians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatia


Josephus placed Gomer and the "Gomerites" in Anatolian Galatia: "For Gomer founded those whom the Greeks now call Galatians, but were then called Gomerites."[3] Galatia in fact takes its name from the ancient Gauls (Celts) who settled there. However, the later Christian writer Hippolytus of Rome in c. 234 assigned Gomer as the ancestor of the Cappadocians, neighbours of the Galatians.[4] Jerome (c. 390) and Isidore of Seville (c. 600) followed Josephus' identification of Gomer with the Galatians, Gauls and Celts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gomer


ok, Cappadocians origin from Cimmerians

now let's what Strabo writes of Cappadocians...


The country of the Assyrians borders on Persis and Susiana. This name1 is given to Babylonia and to much of the country all round, which latter, in part, is also called Aturia, in which are Ninus, Apolloniatis, the Elymaei, the Paraetacae, the Chalonitis in the neighbourhood of Mt. Zagrus, the plains in the neighbourhood of Ninus, and also Dolomenê and Calachenê and Chazenê and Adiabenê, and the tribes of Mesopotamia in the neighbourhood of the Gordyaeans, and the Mygdonians in the neighbourhood of Nisibis, as far as the Zeugma2 of the Euphrates, as also much of the country on the far side of the Euphrates, which is occupied by Arabians, and those people who in a special sense of the term are called by the men of to‑day Syrians, who extend as far as the Cilicians and the Phoenicians and the Judaeans and the sea that is opposite the Aegyptian Sea and the Gulf of Issus.

2 It seems that the name of the Syrians extended not only from Babylonia to the Gulf of Issus, but also in ancient times from this gulf to the Euxine. At any rate, both tribes of the Cappadocians, both those near the Taurus and those near the Pontus, have to the present time been called "White Syrians,"3 as though some Syrians were black, these being the Syrians who live outside the Taurus; and when I say "Taurus," I am extending the name as far as the Amanus. When those who have written histories of the Syrian empire say that the Medes were overthrown by the Persians and the Syrians by the Medes, they mean by the Syrians no other people than those who built the royal palaces in Babylon and Ninus; and, of these Syrians, Ninus was the man who founded Ninus in Aturia, and his wife, Semiramis, was the woman who succeeded her husband and founded Babylon. These two gained the mastery of Asia; and as for Semiramis, apart from her works at Babylon, many others are also to be seen throughout almost the whole of that continent, I mean the mounds called the Mounds of Semiramis, and walls, and the construction of fortifications with aqueducts therein, and of reservoirs for drinking-water, and of ladder-like ascents of mountains, and of channels in rivers and lakes, and of roads and bridges. And they left to their successors their empire until the time of the empires of Sardanapalus and Arbaces. But later the empire passed over to the Medes.

3 Now the city Ninus4 was wiped out immediately after the overthrow of the Syrians.5 It was much greater than Babylon, and was situated in the plain of Aturia. Aturia borders on the region of Arbela, with the Lycus River lying between them. Now Arbela, which lies opposite to Babylonia, belongs to that country; and in the country on the p197far side of the Lycus River lie the plains of Aturia, which surround Ninus. In Aturia is a village Gaugamela, where Dareius was conquered and lost his empire. Now this is a famous place, as is also its name, which, being interpreted, means "Camel's House." Dareius, the son of Hystaspes, so named it, having given it as an estate for the maintenance of the camel which helped most on the toilsome journey through the deserts of Scythia with the burdens containing sustenance and support for the king. However, the Macedonians, seeing that this was a cheap village, but that Arbela was a notable settlement (founded, as it is said, by Arbelus, the son of Athmoneus), announced that the battle and victory took place near Arbela and so transmitted their account to the historians.

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/16A*.html

Cimmerians = Cappadocians = white Syrians
hm, Syrians and white Syrians...
in Europe thraco-Cimmerians whose archeological findings match I2a2 spread
and "white Serbs" who move to Balkan from Bohemia (where they also originally dwelt) to become Serbs....

crescent or moon relation to tribal name of Serians goes even further...



Sart is a name for the settled inhabitants of Central Asia which has had shifting meanings over the centuries. Sarts, known sometimes as Ak-Sart ("White Sart") in ancient times, did not have any particular ethnic identification, and were usually (though not always) town-dwellers.
...
13-th century Mongolian source, "Secret History of the Mongols" states that the Mongols called people from Central Asia, most notably Khwarezm, as "Sartuul". "Sar" in Mongolian means "moon", hence sart or sarta would mean "ones with (flag with) moon", since the Muslim people had Hilal symbol on their flags. One of the Mongolian tribes living in the Zavkhan province are descendants of merchants from Khwarezm, who resided in Harhorin. This tribe, still, is called Sartuul.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

so far we had white syrians and white Serbs, but now we also have White Sart in areas that roughly match Serica and upper part of arc from China to India.... lower part of arc is clearly matched to Pasthun Sarbans...

thus, Seneca was right... that used to be same people in distant past...
and Bavarian geographer was right, state of Zeruiani was so big that all Slavs come from it... and not just Slavs I would add..


The modern Uzbek people are believed to have both Iranian and Turkic ancestry. "Uzbek" and "Tajik" are modern designations given to the culturally homogeneous, sedentary population of Central Asia. The local ancestors of both groups - the Turkic-speaking Uzbeks and the Iranian-speaking Tajiks - were known as "Sarts" ("sedentary merchants") prior to the Russian conquest of Central Asia, while "Uzbek" or "Turk" were the names given to the nomadic and semi-nomadic populations of the area. Still today, modern Uzbeks and Tajiks are known as "Sarts" to their Turkic neighbours, the Kazakhs and the Kyrgyz.

(white) Serians of Asia are thus incorporated in Uzbeks and Tajiks as well...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iranian_peoples

and finally also Serica proper or northwest China


Interestingly, the Muslim, Mongol-speaking Dongxiang people of Northwestern China call themselves Sarta or Santa. It is not clear if there is any connection between this term and the Sarts of Central Asia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sart

isn't this evidence that tribal names stay preserved longer than languages, because tribal names carry identity like last names in individuals?


The Dongxiang are closely related to the Mongolians. Scholars speculate that their identity as an independent ethnic group arose through contact with Central Asians, due to whom the Dongxiang converted to Sunni Islam in the 13th century.
...
Their autonym, sarta, may also provide a contradictory clue to their origin: a similar word Sart was formerly used in Central Asia to refer to Arab traders[citation needed], later to the local (mostly) Turkic-speaking city dwellers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dongxiang_people

let's look back at what Seneca told us...

369] Though kings should gather themselves together, both they who vex the scattered Scythians and they who dwell upon the Red Sea’s marge, who hold wide sway o’er the blood-red main with its gleaming pearls, they who leave unguarded26 the Caspian heights to the bold Sarmatians; though he strive against him, who dares on foot to tread the Danube’s waves27 and (whersoe’er they dwell,) the Serians28 for fleeces famous – ‘tis the upright mind that holds true sovereignty. He has no need of horses, none of arms and the coward weapons which the Parthian hurls from far when he feigns flight, no need of engines hurling rocks, stationed to batter cities to the ground. A king is he who has no fear; a king is he who shall naught desire. Such kingdom on himself each man bestows.

27. i.e. the frozen surface.
28. The poet here conceives of the Serians as near by Scythia.

Seneca - Thyestes
http://www.theoi.com/Text/SenecaThyestes.html


Serica was big trade state... it had startegic arc that linked China and India... lower part of the arc is easily mapped to Pasthun Sarbans, upper part to Tajiks or Uzbeks who are named Sart by their turkic neighbours... on place where silk was grown in Serica proper we find Sart people as well.....

Serians had on Red sea Arab state of Sabeans or Sheba... they were merchants involved in spice trade...
in Caspian highlands we have Serboi
on north shores of Black sea there were Siraces who were same or related to Serboi... Siraces were merchants...

and in Europe Serians rulled over Scythians and lived along Danube..... thus again along trade root...

haplogroup I clearly maps to Serians of Asia, we can see northwest china and arc from China to India very clearly... those are Sart people..or Serians of Seneca...

https://sites.google.com/site/thelineagesofasia/_/rsrc/1251225494370/home/I.png

some pictures of Sart Dongxiang Chinese people

http://www.chinatourstravel.com/uploads/1(5).jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/51/Streets_of_Dongxiang_Man_04.jpg/280px-Streets_of_Dongxiang_Man_04.jpg


some picture of Sart Uzbek/Tajik people
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/9/9f/Sartscrop.jpg/696px-Sartscrop.jpg

zanipolo
27-06-11, 10:44
what you give strabo books and now you me about 1000 years old?
when strabo lived? and what years is that map?

I guess in mind is Illyrian = celtic and celtic = illyrian

At least you could say I make a mistake when I wrote Illyrian items from Constance (illyrian swords and poterry from constnce?)

Pre bronze age!!!!!! so we kick away strabo now and we name illyria the constance?

can you give us the source?





my stupidity!!!!!!!!!!





why you are mixing things?

try to distinguish the words,

Illyrians is the Illyrian proprie dicti,
Illyricum is a geografical province

Illyria was habited by Celts

but lake constance was habited by Illyrians?

make clear that

greeks name Celtic area all the north from montenegro to pannoni
and semi celt today albania

also modern Greek are connecting Brygian with Briganti Celtic (under discuss), or an Iranian R1a tribe Skudet, Irano-Scuthian speaking

it is another word illyria, another illyricum and another Keltos

the way you write is Illyrian moves to lake constance and then returned,

But who Illyrians ???

the Iapodes? the Albanians? the Carians? the carantanians? the liburni?

All these are different speaking people,

Celts move to Illyria but Illyrian does not mean celt


simply if I am stupid and realize what you writing, then I wonder what the smarts would think


you tell me to read Strabo I read strabo I find mistakes that your author had make (vindelici infront of Oennus (inn) I give map of strabo times and you tell me that this map is 1000 years old?

who knows maybe strabo wrote about geography 1000 years before of him

I Believe instead of call me stupid, just look at the mirror


Greeks mention a celtic invasion at about 1600-2000 Bc estimation times repelled by Illyrus,
so they name the Land Illyria after his Victory against Celts

how the the invaders have same name with defenders????


greeks say celt lands start after montengro ??.........did i read this correctly!

zanipolo
27-06-11, 10:49
What? Cannon-fodder? That's... crazy... :useless:
Who would claim something like that. :petrified:


i will get the goth commander , but this system was used , when the goths after taking over the venedi and the aestii , used these "new" troops on the front lines of battles , to take the brunt . used on the bastanae, then bastanae used on the sarmatians .........it was a gothic method of fighting.


Sorry, what? "Pan-Illyrian theories". :confused2: That is complete nonsense, and also completely outdated (notice that Pokorny posted this in 1914). As I stated before, there is no evidence for Illyrians north of the Alps. The Hallstatt Culture clearly was a southern outgrowth of the earlier Urnfield Culture.


outdated? what does year have to do with it.

zanipolo
27-06-11, 10:53
read part 11 and 12 on the scordisci

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Strabo/7E*.html

iapetoc
27-06-11, 13:58
greeks say celt lands start after montengro ??.........did i read this correctly!

Not exactly,
Greek ancient authors say that Celts enter and reach north Greece but Pelasgians pushed them back,
and the land that pealsgians regain is Illyria, half montenegro, above of most monte negro can be considered some Celtic Land at about 1600-2000 Bc,
in Fact they say which tribes and areas were pure celtic and which almost mixed,
in fact the give Celtos (Tribe father, the today slovenia) and sons and etc,
All names have a meaning, in mythology, so greeks say pure celtic the slovenia area and the more near that name the more Celtic while the more far as son means less celtic
by the later authors at makedonian times we find that Celts reached today Epirus and possibly some of them passed to Aetolia (scatter groups or small tribes)
that can make sence cause we are before myceneans and in south greece r1b is bigger than R1a while in central and north R1a is bigger than R1b

your mistake is that is another the Illyrians that strabo writes and another the Illyrians you mention,

Greeks make a clear difference
Illyrians = Pelasgian +celtic
Celtic = Celtic
Dardani = Illyro-Thracians
Thracians = Non Celtic probably

to understand read pliny about Illyria proprie dicti,
monte negro dalmatia was not considered Illyria
later the romans in order to rule thay change the names and create illyricum
and gave south Illyria to makedonia,

the celtic is more clear than the Illyria,
Illyricum was never 1 nation
wjile Illyria was a nation
pliny can help you realise,

Iapodes Liburni Carni are not Illyrians,

so the Pan-illyrism is wrong

it is like the bellow
ottomans enter Greeks, but ottomans are Greeks

that theory was created by Albanians Nationalists in 1912 and after so to explain why Austria help them that time,
in fact many linguists Albanologists from Austria came to push pan Illyrianism, but some deserted cause of luck of evidence and other rejected,

you can put illyrians to Celtic family as half Celtic as para celtic
But not Celtic as Illyrians,

I really wonder what you finally want to say ?
it is better to say clear what you think so to argue clear than give mistaken theories or believes

for example in the Strabo you say, Agrianes are Thracians not Illyrians

the panillyrian theory is simmilar to pan Albanian theory,
makes austrian greeks croats sloveni serbs bulgarian romanian thracians and south italy 1 nation
only in Pan Albanism serbs and bulgarian are not illrians,

just think the Iapodes the liburni and the carians as celts !!!!!!!!!!!!!
or the odrysee thracians as celts
or magna Grecia as Celts !!!!!!!!!!!

the one you do not see is that speaks about Geography of Illyricum and not about Illyrian nation

like someone describes S Africa and names tribes
All tribes are S african but not all tribes Zulu
All S africa are not Zulu

pliny gives clear differences. on what is Illyrians as nation and what is Illyricum as province


just compare the other case Cyclops and Galatea (Phoenician +gauls) (created by Greek epidamnians, exist in Apian writings)
with the apollodorus (Pelasgian +celtic)

even in first case we find Keltos are brother of Illyrus
means Illyrus is half-blooded Celtic
Galus is half blood Celtic
and Keltus is half blooded non Celtic (son of a cyclop-Phoenician sicily)
in both myths we find the same union the non IE east mediteraneo phoenician or Pelasgic (cadmus brother of Phoenix) with a woman name Galatea (celtic)

the woman in greek mythology is usually means the lost power, weak power
the steal of Europe etc
that means Illyrian was created when Galateans became weak and lost and ruled by phoenicians according the epidamnean myth

same conclusion we extract from Greek myth
Cadmus ruled over today half Fyrom and boarded kossufo,
Celts enter so Illyrus pushed back and create the illyrians who are a mix of non IE (pelasgians brothers of phoenicians) and IE Celts

the Illyrian items from lake constance is just ........
and you still did not give the source who arcahiologist said that.

Pliny in his Historia Naturalis gives a clear difference of Illyrians as nation and tribes and of other Illyricum Nations

all this before troy and myceneans
the estimation time is 1600-2000 and mostly 1800-2000 BC the later carnians etc are non Celtic pop


and stop pretending the stupid

I wrote it and explain in many posts


Stop hiding behind your finger
only in Albanian nationalists the theory that Celts are Illyrians exist

tell us clearly what you want to say, or this half or semi words swallow them

cause if you like irony I can use also

you said Bryges are asians while in the same chapter you use text from strabo CLEARLY NAMES BRIGANTES



In the ancient times, asia started in asia minor, so the Brygians where classifed asiatics


but the Bessi, who inhabit the greater part of the Haemus Mountain, are called brigands even by the brigands

chapter 12

search for Antoninus Placentius
Bessian language.


just wonder
Polish are slavic
or Slavic are Polish?

zanipolo
28-06-11, 12:38
Iapodes Liburni Carni are not Illyrians,

Who are then then if not illyrians, I know they all spoke Venetic but where not veneti.



just think the Iapodes the liburni and the carians as celts !!!!!!!!!!!!!

carians? ..they are persians, you mean carni



the one you do not see is that speaks about Geography of Illyricum and not about Illyrian nation

I never speak of borders both past and present because borders are irrelevant in discussing tribes or cultures. So I do not care about the Roman province , its about the people.


like someone describes S Africa and names tribes
All tribes are S african but not all tribes Zulu
All S africa are not Zulu

And ? All spaniards are not all castilian. Whats your point?



pliny gives clear differences. on what is Illyrians as nation and what is Illyricum as province

If strabo and Livy say different to Pliny, why do you accept Pliny?


just compare the other case Cyclops and Galatea (Phoenician +gauls) (created by Greek epidamnians, exist in Apian writings)
with the apollodorus (Pelasgian +celtic)

even in first case we find Keltos are brother of Illyrus
means Illyrus is half-blooded Celtic
Galus is half blood Celtic
and Keltus is half blooded non Celtic (son of a cyclop-Phoenician sicily)
in both myths we find the same union the non IE east mediteraneo phoenician or Pelasgic (cadmus brother of Phoenix) with a woman name Galatea (celtic)

Mythology , and zeus came from Mount Olympus and did this and that..........Just go to the facts .....


the Illyrian items from lake constance is just ........
and you still did not give the source who arcahiologist said that.

The Inn river valley's advantageous geographical position made it a natural choice for early settlers. During the Bronze Age, Illyrians populated the valley areas that proved safe areas from the threat of flooding. Remnants of Illyrian urns can be found in the districts of Wilten, Hötting and Mühlau, whilst artefacts originating from an Illyrian settlement were unearthed on the hill at Vill. Numerous districts of present-day Innsbruck bear names derived from those of the ancient settlements, such as Aldrans, Lans, Igls and Vill.

illyrian tribes in the tyrol austria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti#Tribes

iapetoc
07-07-11, 06:40
Who are then then if not illyrians, I know they all spoke Venetic but where not veneti.




carians? ..they are persians, you mean carni



I never speak of borders both past and present because borders are irrelevant in discussing tribes or cultures. So I do not care about the Roman province , its about the people.



And ? All spaniards are not all castilian. Whats your point?



If strabo and Livy say different to Pliny, why do you accept Pliny?


Mythology , and zeus came from Mount Olympus and did this and that..........Just go to the facts .....



The Inn river valley's advantageous geographical position made it a natural choice for early settlers. During the Bronze Age, Illyrians populated the valley areas that proved safe areas from the threat of flooding. Remnants of Illyrian urns can be found in the districts of Wilten, Hötting and Mühlau, whilst artefacts originating from an Illyrian settlement were unearthed on the hill at Vill. Numerous districts of present-day Innsbruck bear names derived from those of the ancient settlements, such as Aldrans, Lans, Igls and Vill.

illyrian tribes in the tyrol austria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti#Tribes


Against Strabo, Pliny considers the Lepontii as a Celtic tribe akin to the Taurisci and classifies the Camunni as an Euganean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean) tribe, together with the Trumplini of the neighbouring valley, Val Trompia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardone_Val_Trompia).[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti#cite_note-13) However, neither of Pliny's comments is fatal to the identification of the Lepontii and Camunni as Raeti. The Lepontic language has been definitively classified as Celtic, but it contains non Indo-European elements in a similar way to contemporary Celtiberian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian_language) in Spain. This is consistent with a Raetic origin to the Lepontii and subsequent Celtisation. As for the Euganei, their linguistic classification is uncertain. It is possible that their speech too was related to Etruscan and that they could be considered a sub-group of the Raeti nation. Alternatively they may have been proto-Italic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_peoples) akin to the Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneti).
In addition, it appears that "Raetia et Vindelicia" was inhabited by a number of non-Raetic tribes also. The Breuni and Genauni are classified as Illyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian) by Strabo, while a number of tribes in the region such as the Caturiges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caturiges) and Nantuates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantuates) have plausible Celtic etymologies: from catu- ("fight" or "warriors") and nantu- ("valley") respectively.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti#cite_note-14)
In addition to the tribal names supplied by the ancient sources, the Tropaeum Alpium inscription contains a number of other names which have been identified as inhabiting the territory of Raetia et Vindelicia, based on philology and proximity to documented tribes. Eliminating those tribes that are probably Celtic (on personal names) the following list of possible Raeti tribes results:


do you understand what it says???????????????

and what you wrote???????????

and what you claim??????????????????????????


pliny makes clear difference who are the Illyrians and who are living in Illyria,
Strabo just names parts of Illyrians,

if carni and the others were Illyrians then I am airplane,

Venetic is not Illyrian
Etruscan are another story and other the Illyria although they have connection,

the theory of Hans Krahe today is off,
the mistake that we make if we follow with his laws are tremendus. especially in balkans
krahe renamed the language of Dinaric celts to Illyrian.


the Alfoldoy describes clear and sends to bucket the Albanocentrist theory of Panillyrian based on krahe

in fact the ones that Krahe names Illyrian, Greeks name it Celtic

while the ones that Greek and pliny names Illyria is what today after Alfoldy and Pohl fits
simply if we had few words more from strabo or another one then we knew surely about the centum or satem of many Illyricum parts,

the Krahe theory which he connected also with prokomy is following the same theory you share
dialect = ethnicity while from 2000 his theory is over, Pohl proved the old moto of a living language,
so a language even if it is teached takes others forms or meaning in 2 groups even if communication among those groups is not cut,
Language is a living thing that transforms thru years,


the only who still use krahe are the Albanian nationalists

zanipolo
07-07-11, 07:40
Against Strabo, Pliny considers the Lepontii as a Celtic tribe akin to the Taurisci and classifies the Camunni as an Euganean (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euganean) tribe, together with the Trumplini of the neighbouring valley, Val Trompia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gardone_Val_Trompia).[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti#cite_note-13) However, neither of Pliny's comments is fatal to the identification of the Lepontii and Camunni as Raeti. The Lepontic language has been definitively classified as Celtic, but it contains non Indo-European elements in a similar way to contemporary Celtiberian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtiberian_language) in Spain. This is consistent with a Raetic origin to the Lepontii and subsequent Celtisation. As for the Euganei, their linguistic classification is uncertain. It is possible that their speech too was related to Etruscan and that they could be considered a sub-group of the Raeti nation. Alternatively they may have been proto-Italic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italic_peoples) akin to the Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Veneti).
In addition, it appears that "Raetia et Vindelicia" was inhabited by a number of non-Raetic tribes also. The Breuni and Genauni are classified as Illyrian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrian) by Strabo, while a number of tribes in the region such as the Caturiges (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caturiges) and Nantuates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nantuates) have plausible Celtic etymologies: from catu- ("fight" or "warriors") and nantu- ("valley") respectively.[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raeti#cite_note-14)
In addition to the tribal names supplied by the ancient sources, the Tropaeum Alpium inscription contains a number of other names which have been identified as inhabiting the territory of Raetia et Vindelicia, based on philology and proximity to documented tribes. Eliminating those tribes that are probably Celtic (on personal names) the following list of possible Raeti tribes results:


do you understand what it says???????????????

and what you wrote???????????

and what you claim??????????????????????????


pliny makes clear difference who are the Illyrians and who are living in Illyria,
Strabo just names parts of Illyrians,

if carni and the others were Illyrians then I am airplane,

Venetic is not Illyrian
Etruscan are another story and other the Illyria although they have connection,

the theory of Hans Krahe today is off,
the mistake that we make if we follow with his laws are tremendus. especially in balkans
krahe renamed the language of Dinaric celts to Illyrian.


the Alfoldoy describes clear and sends to bucket the Albanocentrist theory of Panillyrian based on krahe

in fact the ones that Krahe names Illyrian, Greeks name it Celtic

while the ones that Greek and pliny names Illyria is what today after Alfoldy and Pohl fits
simply if we had few words more from strabo or another one then we knew surely about the centum or satem of many Illyricum parts,

your problem is that you associate illyrian with slavic or albanian....clear your head, the illyrians are not these people.

Veneti have to be illyrians ( northern illyrians ) because their capital Ateste ( Este) is a illyrian word, the carni have to be illyrian, their capital Tergeste ( Trieste ) is an illyrian word. The raetian people was named raetian by the Romans because they prayed to the same goddess as the Venetic goddess Rhaetia ( Artemis in Greek), and spoke a similar language to venetic . The venetic language was spoken by northern illyrian tribes.
Other tribes originally thought to have been Illyrians were actually related to Veneti, such as:


Histri (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Histri)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti#cite_note-Wilkes_4-9)
Catari (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catari)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti#cite_note-10)
Catali (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catali)[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti#cite_note-11)
Liburni (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liburni)
Lopsi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lopsi)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti#cite_note-12)
Secusses (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secusses)[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti#cite_note-13)

and a few more which I can name. related to me means linguistically.

The veneti did not reach the alps, be it the eugenian, dolomite or julian alps

What i read is that the celts in southern Germany assimilated the illyrians around 900BC in the alps as their languages where similar ( you can see this assimilation as time passes also in pannonian area, eastern alps, dalmatian lands etc etc ) , over time, venetic disappeared into either an italic version or a celtic version.

Venetian archives says , the veneti became germainc -celts in customs , while the carni became gallic-celts by customs. Actually the carni ( who are friulian people) still speak today a ancient southern french language mixed with venetian and italian.

Strabo, Livy, Polybius, Herodorous say the same things, Pliny is the odd one out.

iapetoc
07-07-11, 09:17
where herodotus say that?
where polyvius say that?

simply I don't get your point and you don't get mine,

I say clearly something,
the group you name Illyrians are Venedi, or celtic

maybe you don't accept myths, ok,
then exept vennedi who are not mentioned in the myth, the rest are Celtic, exept Illyria proprie, the case of a before-celtic then we must search if it was IE or not,

by what I understand you seek the celtic branch ?
or the venedic branch?
and who was germano and who was galato?

it is hard for me, this time of hour,

simply -este is after Italic version
in Romanian is -Esti
in greek is εστη εστι
and means nest
so Tergeste could means nest of terg
while trieste means nest of trie :confused2:

so bucur-esti is illyrian and esti-onia are Illyrians?

yes you are right

buda-pesti is illyrian,

rhaetia = Artemis?

sory i can't follow you I am tired,.
explaine clear what you search and you believe,

zanipolo
07-07-11, 13:27
where herodotus say that?
where polyvius say that?

simply I don't get your point and you don't get mine,

I say clearly something,
the group you name Illyrians are Venedi, or celtic

maybe you don't accept myths, ok,
then exept vennedi who are not mentioned in the myth, the rest are Celtic, exept Illyria proprie, the case of a before-celtic then we must search if it was IE or not,

by what I understand you seek the celtic branch ?
or the venedic branch?
and who was germano and who was galato?

it is hard for me, this time of hour,

simply -este is after Italic version
in Romanian is -Esti
in greek is εστη εστι
and means nest
so Tergeste could means nest of terg
while trieste means nest of trie :confused2:

so bucur-esti is illyrian and esti-onia are Illyrians?

yes you are right

buda-pesti is illyrian,

rhaetia = Artemis?

sory i can't follow you I am tired,.
explaine clear what you search and you believe,

why do you think that venice was placed under the eastern Roman Empire and not under the western Roman empire,...........because the romans kept tribal peoples together, since dalmatia and istria was illyrian , and under the east roman empire, the romans placed venice and the veneti under the eastern empire. same race , same tribal people.


misspelt reitia before
Reitia (Venetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_language): :::) is a goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess), one of the best known deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity) of the Adriatic Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) of northeastern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). While her place in the Venetic pantheon cannot be known for certain, the importance of her cultus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultus) to Venetic society is well attested in archaeological finds. A large body of votive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votive) offerings on pottery and metal objects has been found at a Venetic shrine in Baratella (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baratella&action=edit&redlink=1), near Este (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este,_Italy).

zanipolo
07-07-11, 13:28
where herodotus say that?
where polyvius say that?

simply I don't get your point and you don't get mine,

I say clearly something,
the group you name Illyrians are Venedi, or celtic

maybe you don't accept myths, ok,
then exept vennedi who are not mentioned in the myth, the rest are Celtic, exept Illyria proprie, the case of a before-celtic then we must search if it was IE or not,

by what I understand you seek the celtic branch ?
or the venedic branch?
and who was germano and who was galato?

it is hard for me, this time of hour,

simply -este is after Italic version
in Romanian is -Esti
in greek is εστη εστι
and means nest
so Tergeste could means nest of terg
while trieste means nest of trie :confused2:

so bucur-esti is illyrian and esti-onia are Illyrians?

yes you are right

buda-pesti is illyrian,

rhaetia = Artemis?

sory i can't follow you I am tired,.
explaine clear what you search and you believe,

why do you think that venice was placed under the eastern Roman Empire and not under the western Roman empire,...........because the romans kept tribal peoples together, since dalmatia and istria was illyrian , and under the east roman empire, the romans placed venice and the veneti under the eastern empire. same race , same tribal people.


misspelt reitia before
Reitia (Venetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_language): 𐌓𐌄:𐌉:𐌕𐌉:𐌀) is a goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess), one of the best known deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity) of the Adriatic Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) of northeastern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). While her place in the Venetic pantheon cannot be known for certain, the importance of her cultus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultus) to Venetic society is well attested in archaeological finds. A large body of votive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votive) offerings on pottery and metal objects has been found at a Venetic shrine in Baratella (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baratella&action=edit&redlink=1), near Este (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este,_Italy).

iapetoc
07-07-11, 13:56
why do you think that venice was placed under the eastern Roman Empire and not under the western Roman empire,...........because the romans kept tribal peoples together, since dalmatia and istria was illyrian , and under the east roman empire, the romans placed venice and the veneti under the eastern empire. same race , same tribal people.


misspelt reitia before
Reitia (Venetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_language): :::) is a goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess), one of the best known deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity) of the Adriatic Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) of northeastern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). While her place in the Venetic pantheon cannot be known for certain, the importance of her cultus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultus) to Venetic society is well attested in archaeological finds. A large body of votive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votive) offerings on pottery and metal objects has been found at a Venetic shrine in Baratella (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baratella&action=edit&redlink=1), near Este (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este,_Italy).


and what makes you connected with Greek Artemis, and not with the pre-greek Rhea?

well by using wrong names you create confusion,
so Venedi language is the Illyrian language you speak about?

iapetoc
07-07-11, 13:56
why do you think that venice was placed under the eastern Roman Empire and not under the western Roman empire,...........because the romans kept tribal peoples together, since dalmatia and istria was illyrian , and under the east roman empire, the romans placed venice and the veneti under the eastern empire. same race , same tribal people.


misspelt reitia before
Reitia (Venetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_language): 𐌓𐌄:𐌉:𐌕𐌉:𐌀) is a goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess), one of the best known deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity) of the Adriatic Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) of northeastern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). While her place in the Venetic pantheon cannot be known for certain, the importance of her cultus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultus) to Venetic society is well attested in archaeological finds. A large body of votive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votive) offerings on pottery and metal objects has been found at a Venetic shrine in Baratella (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baratella&action=edit&redlink=1), near Este (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este,_Italy).


and what makes you connected with Greek Artemis, and not with the pre-greek Rhea?

well by using wrong names you create confusion,
so Venedi language is the Illyrian language you speak about?

how yes no 2
07-07-11, 18:00
why do you think that venice was placed under the eastern Roman Empire and not under the western Roman empire,...........because the romans kept tribal peoples together, since dalmatia and istria was illyrian , and under the east roman empire, the romans placed venice and the veneti under the eastern empire. same race , same tribal people.


misspelt reitia before
Reitia (Venetic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venetic_language): ������������:���� �:������������:�� ���) is a goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess), one of the best known deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity) of the Adriatic Veneti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adriatic_Veneti) of northeastern Italy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italy). While her place in the Venetic pantheon cannot be known for certain, the importance of her cultus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultus) to Venetic society is well attested in archaeological finds. A large body of votive (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Votive) offerings on pottery and metal objects has been found at a Venetic shrine in Baratella (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Baratella&action=edit&redlink=1), near Este (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Este,_Italy).

hm, interesting.....
Reitia can be origin of tribal and area names such as Raetia, Thracians, Rascians, Russians, Rasena (etruscans)...
e.g. Serbs whose medieval state was Raška were called
Raci (Раци, Hungarian: Rác, (pl.) Rácok, German: Ratzen, Raize, (pl.) Raizen, Ratzians, Rasciani, Rascians) was a name used to designate Serbs, or sometimes, in a wider perspective, all South Slavs,[1] in the Middle Ages and the early modern times. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raci)

modern Serbs are recorded to arrive from land Boika that from given description can only match land of Boii or Bohemia, which is supported by increased I2a2 frequencies in southwest Bohemia (2-3 times more than the rest of Czech republic..e.g 14.6% in Klatovy and 9.2% in Pisek compared to around 4% in towns more east and north...see http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/ajpa.20500/abstract ).... in that land they were also known as "white" same as Croats...

http://books.google.nl/books?id=3al15wpFWiMC&lpg=PP1&dq=de%20administrando%20imperio&pg=PA153#v=onepage&q&f=false


important to note that Sorviodurum (today this is Straubing) is a town in east Germany on border
with southwest Bohemia...on other side of border in southwest Bohemia are two towns named Srby

whole area was part of Raetia and Sorviodurum was one of notable towns of Raetia....

in Raetia besides Raetians lived Vindelici...

*windo = white in proto-Celtic
wends = Slavs, even now for Sorbs
venti = wind gods...
Jordanes says early Slavs are from populous race of Veneti..


In Venetic, she is given the epithets Śahnate, the Healer, and Pora, the good and kind. She was also a deity of writing; Marcel Detienne interprets the name Reitia as "the one who writes" (cf. Proto-Germanic *wreitan- 'to write'). Inscriptions dedicating offerings to Reitia are one of our chief sources of knowledge of the Venetic language [1] The Romans identified her with Juno.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reitia

Slavic people (Sloveni) also have name derived from writing
"Slovo" = alphabet letter...
though some people suggest that Slavic name is related to "Slava" = glory... I am convinced it was about alphabet letter /writing...

e.g. in language of Laz people
Supara (სუპარა) – book
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laz_language

and Procopius speaks of Slavs previously known as Spori...

zanipolo
08-07-11, 08:52
i cannot see any slavic in this link

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=4RYJAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA469&dq=veneti+illyrian&hl=en&ei=EHQWTvzFKMmgmQWI_-wd&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CC0Q6AEwATgK#v=onepage&q=veneti%20illyrian&f=false

it has getae and dacian, illyrian, celtic .........most nations.............just read all you can

Cambrius (The Red)
08-07-11, 18:51
There was never any Celtic settlement saturation in the region of Serbia. The most significant settlement, both in terms of population numbers and length, occurred in France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Britain. The Alpine regions also had reasonably strong levels of Celticity, although not as enduring as in the west of Europe.

spongetaro
08-07-11, 19:25
The Alpine regions also had reasonably strong levels of Celticity, although not as enduring as in the west of Europe.

The Alpine regions are the craddle of Celtic culture and languages. When Iberia was conquered by the Roman, Most of Alpine region was still Celtic

iapetoc
08-07-11, 20:10
There was never any Celtic settlement saturation in the region of Serbia. The most significant settlement, both in terms of population numbers and length, occurred in France, Spain, Portugal, Ireland and Britain. The Alpine regions also had reasonably strong levels of Celticity, although not as enduring as in the west of Europe.

in fact even in minor asia we have celtic settlement
Galatia

Cambrius (The Red)
11-07-11, 21:00
The Alpine regions are the craddle of Celtic culture and languages. When Iberia was conquered by the Roman, Most of Alpine region was still Celtic

The evidence from the Atlantic School (see Celtic from the West 2010, Cunliffe and Koch) strongly suggests that Celticity developed separately (and perhaps earlier than in the Alpine regions) in Iberia and the rest of Atlantic Facade.

Cambrius (The Red)
11-07-11, 21:01
There was no Celtic settlement saturation and longevity in Asia Minor.

Knovas
11-07-11, 21:59
The hurt Galata sculpture is an important testimony of Celtic presence in Asia Minor. However, I don't think that much of this tribes survived till present day there.

iapetoc
11-07-11, 22:28
There was no Celtic settlement saturation and longevity in Asia Minor.

NO NO NO
there is a P-celtic family of languages and tribes in Dalmatia, illyria, Greece, Pannoni, basin,
we found gaulish words in Hommer,
Just think the Greek horse is Ippos can you find another IE family with word Ippos? exept Gaulish?
exept if Homer visit the celts in France Iberia or Belgium (Galatians) and learn it from there,
every body knows that, they were Gaul Celts with influence from Germanic,

the center of P-celts is not ireland or iberia or England,
another story the P-Celts and another the Q-celts

No body said about long Living,
in fact in some areas in Romania they were same speaking with Romano-Celtic,
I think OVid say learn the language in 1 month.

the ones the maciamo names as Dorians and Zanipolo as Ilyrians are P-Celtic of the balkans,

tell your school to come and see relics and search, and reconsider



The hurt Galata sculpture is an important testimony of Celtic presence in Asia Minor. However, I don't think that much of this tribes survived till present day there.

correct
All adopted the Roman language as Romano Celtic or enter Greek Language,
with time did not survived the language except in some Aromani in Balkans and remnants relic of older language in modern like Slavic Albanian and Greek

besides you can from gennetists to tell you about,

spongetaro
12-07-11, 12:15
The evidence from the Atlantic School (see Celtic from the West 2010, Cunliffe and Koch) strongly suggests that Celticity developed separately (and perhaps earlier than in the Alpine regions) in Iberia and the rest of Atlantic Facade.


Iberia and its Iberian, Tartessian, Basque, Lusitanian languages is the most unceltic part of Western Europe. BTW Archeology gives us evidence of Celtic "saturation" (I know that you Spaniards like this word taken from wikipedia) in the Alpes region before the Atlantic façade

spongetaro
12-07-11, 12:18
NO NO NO
there is a P-celtic family of languages and tribes in Dalmatia, illyria, Greece, Pannoni, basin

Anyway, Celts and Dorians are both derived from the Urnfield culture. But Historins like Herodotus never mentions the Dorians as "Celts"

Knovas
12-07-11, 13:07
Archeology also gives evidence of strong Celtic presence in Iberia. Doesn't matter if Irland and/or Britain have more significant Celtic background. I don't think this is an argument to downplay.

spongetaro
12-07-11, 13:53
Archeology also gives evidence of strong Celtic presence in Iberia. Doesn't matter if Irland and/or Britain have more significant Celtic background. I don't think this is an argument to downplay.


Celtic presece in parts of Iberia only that exclude the west (Lusitanian), the south (Tartessian and phoenicians), the east (Iberian), the Central-North (Basque country) while both Ireland and Britain were fully Celts like the whole Alpine region

Taranis
12-07-11, 14:49
Let me say this (this discussion has been made before, many times over):

- the Atlanticist School (which seeks the origin of the Celtic languages in the Atlantic Façade) fails to explain the close relationship of the Celtic languages with the Italic languages, and also it fails to explain the absence of west-to-east movements out of the Atlantic region into Central Europe.

- the Celtic languages clearly did not originate on the Iberian penninsula, since it sported three non-IE language in Antiquity: Basque-Aquitanian, Iberian and Tartessian, as well as a non-Celtic but Indo-European language (Lusitanian).

- the Celts may not have been the first Indo-Europeans on the Iberian penninsula, either (see Lusitanians), and there is evidence for a Lusitanian substrate in Gallaecia.

- the Atlanticist School does have a point so in so far as Hallstatt and La-Tene alone do not explain the presence of Celtic languages on the Iberian penninsula. (the "Classicist" hypothesis links the spread of the Celtic languages to Hallstatt and La-Tene alone, which obviously doesn't work).

- Both the classicist and the atlanticist hypothesis fail to explain the existence of the Lepontic language (the oldest attested unambiguously Celtic language), which was a distinct Celtic language that is linked with the Golasecca Culture in northern Italy, and which in itself was an offshot of the earlier Urnfield Culture (just like Hallstatt).

- The Classicist hypothesis does have a point in so far as Hallstatt and La-Tene verymuch explain the spread of the Gaulish language (as well as it's eastern relatives - Noric and Galatian). That the Hallstatt people were Celtic-speaking furthermore explains the numerous borrowings of Celtic words into Proto-Germanic.

- My opinion is that neither the Atlantic Bronze Age nor the Urnfield Culture were linguistically homogenous, but that both regions were in parts Celtic-speaking (but also included significant areas which spoke non-Celtic, and in the case of the former, non-Indo-European languages).

- One detail frequently overlooked is the situation on the British Isles in Antiquity: first, there is the fact that there is a complete absence of non-Celtic languages on the British Isles. The second is the fact that Britain apparently was entirely P-Celtic in Antiquity. While the exact position of Pictish is uncertain, it is clear that it too was a P-Celtic language akin to Brythonic and Gaulish.

iapetoc
12-07-11, 16:49
Anyway, Celts and Dorians are both derived from the Urnfield culture. But Historins like Herodotus never mentions the Dorians as "Celts"

The dorians are not Celts the Dorian are the sons Hercules,

the muth of Illyrians is created by some,

plz guys don't confuse them,
search for temenides,
I am about to open a thread about them since some still believe that dorian came from Alpren,

Cambrius (The Red)
12-07-11, 18:47
Iberia and its Iberian, Tartessian, Basque, Lusitanian languages is the most unceltic part of Western Europe. BTW Archeology gives us evidence of Celtic "saturation" (I know that you Spaniards like this word taken from wikipedia) in the Alpes region before the Atlantic façade

Incorrect. Have you read the population research studies posted by Wilhelm? The Celtiberians ALONE made up 450,000 of Celts in Iberia. At high point Celtic peoples comprised up to 75% of Iberia's population. The Lusitanians were Proto-Celts and their language, at the very least, was para-Celtic. Celtic and Celtic influenced languages were spoken in about three fourths of the Iberian Peninsula at one time. Read the research and stick to the facts, please.

Cambrius (The Red)
12-07-11, 18:54
Celtic presece in parts of Iberia only that exclude the west (Lusitanian), the south (Tartessian and phoenicians), the east (Iberian), the Central-North (Basque country) while both Ireland and Britain were fully Celts like the whole Alpine region

Excuse me? The Celtici in the southwest and the Gallaecians in the NW and the Celtiberians in the central regions and the Lusitanians (who were Proto-Celts) in the west don't count? Stick to the facts and don't downplay the obvious ancient Celticity of Iberia.

spongetaro
12-07-11, 19:10
Excuse me? The Celtici in the southwest and the Gallaecians in the NW and the Celtiberians in the central regions and the Lusitanians (who were Proto-Celts) in the west don't count? Stick to the facts and don't downplay the obvious ancient Celticity of Iberia.

This doesn't dismiss the fact that there were non celtic people in the east (iberian), in the south (tartessian, Phoenicians), in the East (Lusitanian whose language is closer to italic than Celt) in the north (basque, Aquitanian) who occupied large parts of the Peninsula. Cesar wrotte that inhabitants of Aquitania were more similar to the inhabitants of Hispania than to those of Gaul.

spongetaro
12-07-11, 19:12
BTW the size of the area occupied by Celtiberians is smaller than that occupied by the Moors. Same can be said about the cultural influence

sparkey
12-07-11, 19:22
- One detail frequently overlooked is the situation on the British Isles in Antiquity: first, there is the fact that there is a complete absence of non-Celtic languages on the British Isles. The second is the fact that Britain apparently was entirely P-Celtic in Antiquity. While the exact position of Pictish is uncertain, it is clear that it too was a P-Celtic language akin to Brythonic and Gaulish.

First of all, excellent summary Taranis, I find myself agreeing with you significantly. For some reason, a strict Atlanticist interpretation has been taken in a lot of literature right now, but your comprehensive summary is the direction I think study of the spread of Celtic peoples should be going.

I've been struggling to interpret the spread of Celtic peoples into Britain, however. We have an understanding of the progression of culture like this:
-Pre-Grooved Ware: until ca. 2900 BC
-Grooved Ware: ca. 2900 BC - ca. 2300 BC
-Beaker: ca. 2300 BC - ca. 1800 BC
-ca. 1200 BC: A large migration (Celtic?)
-Iron Age Britain, more clearly Celtic: ca. 750 BC - ca. 50 AD

Where do you think the Q-Celtic peoples (assuming they came first because Q-Celtic is older than P-Celtic and it ended up in farther-away Ireland) fit in, and similarly, the P-Celtic peoples? And do you agree that Britain would have been mostly non-R1b until post-Beaker culture, indicating a spread of Celtic languages with Y-DNA R1b?

Cambrius (The Red)
12-07-11, 19:22
BTW the size of the area occupied by Celtiberians is smaller than that occupied by the Moors. Same can be said about the cultural influence


Here we go again...:rolleyes2: Didn't you learn anything from the Celts in Iberia thread?

spongetaro
12-07-11, 19:28
And do you agree that Britain would have been mostly non-R1b until post-Beaker culture, indicating a spread of Celtic languages with Y-DNA R1b?

I think that even among early western Indo European, R1b was a minority. Only one R1b among the 15 individuls tested have been found in the Urnfield site of the Lichtenstein cave (First millenium BC)

Taranis
12-07-11, 19:44
Incorrect. Have you read the population research studies posted by Wilhelm? The Celtiberians ALONE made up 450,000 of Celts in Iberia. At high point Celtic peoples comprised up to 75% of Iberia's population. The Lusitanians were Proto-Celts and their language, at the very least, was para-Celtic. Celtic and Celtic influenced languages were spoken in about three fourths of the Iberian Peninsula at one time. Read the research and stick to the facts, please.


Excuse me? The Celtici in the southwest and the Gallaecians in the NW and the Celtiberians in the central regions and the Lusitanians (who were Proto-Celts) in the west don't count? Stick to the facts and don't downplay the obvious ancient Celticity of Iberia.

Sorry, but you're doing generalizations here: the statement about the 70% (in area, that is) of the Iberian penninsula being Celtic or Celtic-dominated at one point only really holds true for approximately the start of the 3rd century BC. Half a millennium earlier, the situation probably was quite a bit different. Specifically, it's clear that the Celtici of the Southwest must have been relatively recent inhabitants. The original inhabitants were the Tartessians - most inscriptions are in fact from the Algarve. Likewise, Gallaecia was certainly not originally Celtic - it's population was effectively of mixed Celtic/Lusitanian stock. It's hard to say when that region became Celticized - one might speculate however it occured at the start of the iron age, but given the settlement density it stands to reason this occured significantly earlier than in the post-Tartessian region.

Taranis
12-07-11, 20:17
First of all, excellent summary Taranis, I find myself agreeing with you significantly. For some reason, a strict Atlanticist interpretation has been taken in a lot of literature right now, but your comprehensive summary is the direction I think study of the spread of Celtic peoples should be going.

Thanks man.

The main beef I have with the Atlanticist school is that they are ignorant of the situation in the east. We have Celtic place names as far as the Oder and the Carpathians. We have the Celtic incursion into the Balkans in the early 3rd century BC. Where did these Celts come from?


I've been struggling to interpret the spread of Celtic peoples into Britain, however. We have an understanding of the progression of culture like this:
-Pre-Grooved Ware: until ca. 2900 BC
-Grooved Ware: ca. 2900 BC - ca. 2300 BC
-Beaker: ca. 2300 BC - ca. 1800 BC
-ca. 1200 BC: A large migration (Celtic?)
-Iron Age Britain, more clearly Celtic: ca. 750 BC - ca. 50 AD

Where do you think the Q-Celtic peoples (assuming they came first because Q-Celtic is older than P-Celtic and it ended up in farther-away Ireland) fit in, and similarly, the P-Celtic peoples? And do you agree that Britain would have been mostly non-R1b until post-Beaker culture, indicating a spread of Celtic languages with Y-DNA R1b?

I have contemplated on this as well. I'm personally uncertain regarding the identification of the Beaker-Bell Culture. They are early enough to have been Indo-Europeans, but they are also too early to have been Celtic. In particular, the pattern of spread: there is the fact that Beaker-Bell extends into southern Scandianavia, as well as incorporating a huge swath of area later inhabited by other non-Celtic peoples, is a reason why I think it's unlikely that the Beaker-Bell people were Proto-Celtic.

On the flip side, there's some indications they might have been non-IE altogether: many of the aspects of Beaker-Bell are clear continuities with earlier cultures (at least in the Atlantic region), and also the latest construction phases at Stone Henge for instance fall into this phase. This really opens up the possibility that Beaker-Bell was - at least in part - a continuation of the earlier Megalithic Builder cultures and not something completely new. But, as said, I am indecisive on this.

Regarding the later events, it's conceivable for the earliest Proto-Celtic peoples to have arrived in the 13th century BC, simultaneous to the great upheavals that occur Europe-wide (in particular, the Bronze Age collapse in the eastern Mediterranean).

Otherwise, yes, Q-Celtic is the more archaic state, and it's clear that the Q-> P shift was a linguistic innovation from the east, and that both the Celts in Ireland and the Celts in Iberia were left out of this innovation.

Regarding the arrival of P-Celtic in Britain, it's difficult to say. It's possible that Britain saw two different waves of invasion - or immigration - after the 13th century BC which might have brought P-Celtic languages with them: the first is the arrival of iron-working in approximately the 8th century BC (from the Hallstatt Culture). There definitely was another movement into Britain in approximately the 3rd century BC by La-Tene Celts (the Belgae, some tribes of which were found on both sides of the Channel). It is clear however that Britain must have been P-Celtic before that, because Pytheas of Massilia already recorded the term "Pritennike" (Britain) during his journey in the 4th century BC.

In any case, we also know that the Q/P split was complete by the 6th century BC, because the Lepontic language was also P-Celtic.

sparkey
12-07-11, 20:48
So under the Taranis Theory, we've got something that looks like this in Britain?:
-Pre-Grooved Ware (pre-IE?): until ca. 2900 BC
-Grooved Ware (pre-IE?): ca. 2900 BC - ca. 2300 BC
-Beaker (early IE? or pre-IE?): ca. 2300 BC - ca. 1800 BC
-Wessex-culture and related (early IE? pre-Celtic?) ca. 1800 BC - ca. 1300 BC
-Q-Celtic Britain ca. 1300 BC - ca. 750 BC
-P-Celtic Britain ca. 750 BC - onward to the Anglo-Saxons

Cambrius (The Red)
12-07-11, 22:19
Sorry, but you're doing generalizations here: the statement about the 70% (in area, that is) of the Iberian penninsula being Celtic or Celtic-dominated at one point only really holds true for approximately the start of the 3rd century BC. Half a millennium earlier, the situation probably was quite a bit different. Specifically, it's clear that the Celtici of the Southwest must have been relatively recent inhabitants. The original inhabitants were the Tartessians - most inscriptions are in fact from the Algarve. Likewise, Gallaecia was certainly not originally Celtic - it's population was effectively of mixed Celtic/Lusitanian stock. It's hard to say when that region became Celticized - one might speculate however it occured at the start of the iron age, but given the settlement density it stands to reason this occured significantly earlier than in the post-Tartessian region.

My friend, didn't I say "at high point"?

zanipolo
13-07-11, 12:23
there where many permanent settlements in the beeker period where copper was made, like the 5 metres hgh fortress in Portugal - Castelo Velho de freiro Numao, this castle was the same time as stonehedge

Anyway who made copper, defended themselves fearllessly

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chalcolithic_Europe

how yes no 2
31-12-11, 02:53
In Slavic mythology the Zorya (alternately, Zarya, Zory, Zore = "dawn"; Zvezda, Zwezda, Danica = "star") are the three (sometimes two) guardian goddesses, known as the Auroras. They guard and watch over the doomsday hound, Simargl, who is chained to the star Polaris in the constellation Ursa Minor, the "little bear". If the chain ever breaks, the hound will devour the constellation and the universe will end. The Zorya represent the Morning Star, Evening Star, and Midnight Star, respectively,[1] although the Midnight Star is sometimes omitted. As a trio, they are sometimes associated with the Triple Goddess mythic archetype, representing the maiden, mother and crone.
The Zorya serve the sun god Dažbog, who in some myths is described as their father. Zorya Utrennyaya, the Morning Star, opens the gates to his palace every morning for the sun-chariot's departure. At dusk, Zorya Vechernyaya—the Evening Star—closes the palace gates once more after his return. Zorya Polunochnaya, the Midnight Star, holds the dying sun in her arms until he is restored to life the following morning. The three goddesses are also associated with marriage, protection, and exorcisms.
The home of the Zorya was sometimes said to be on Bouyan (or Buyan), an oceanic island paradise where the Sun dwelt along with his attendants, the North, West and East winds.
[2]
....
In some myths, she is described as the wife of Perun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun) and would accompany her husband into battle.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zorya

In Irish mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_mythology), Brigit or Brighid ("exalted one"[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighid#cite_note-0)) was the daughter of the Dagda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dagda) and one of the Tuatha Dé Danann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann). She was the wife of Bres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bres) of the Fomorians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians), with whom she had a son, Ruadán.
She had two sisters, also named Brighid, and is considered "a classic Celtic Triple Goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deities#Triple_goddesses)".[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighid

Goibniu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goibniu), Creidhne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creidhne) and Luchta (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luchta) are referred to as Trí Dé Dána ("three gods of craftsmanship"), and the Dagda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagda)'s name is interpreted in medieval (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medieval) texts as "the good god."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann


In Irish mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_mythology), Credne (Old Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish)) or Creidhne (Modern Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language) – pronounced creynya) was a son of Brigid (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid) and Tuireann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuireann) and the artificer of the Tuatha Dé Danann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann), working in bronze (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bronze), brass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brass) and gold (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold). He and his brothers Goibniu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goibniu) and Luchtaine (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luchtaine) were known as the Trí Dée Dána, the three gods of art, who forged the weapons which the Tuatha Dé used to battle the Fomorians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creidhne#cite_note-A_Dictionary_of_Celtic_Mythology-0)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creidhne



In Celtic religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_polytheism) and Irish mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_mythology), Brigit or Brighid ("exalted one"[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid#cite_note-0)) is the daughter of the Dagda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dagda) and one of the Tuatha Dé Danann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann). She was the wife of Bres (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bres) of the Fomorians (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fomorians), with whom she had a son, Ruadán.

She had two sisters, also named Brighid, and is considered "a classic Celtic Triple Goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triple_deities#Triple_goddesses)"
The Dagda (Proto-Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Celtic_language): *Dagodeiwos, Old Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish): Dag Dia, Modern Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_language): Daghdha) is an important god (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity) of Irish mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_mythology). The Dagda is a father-figure (he is also known as Eochaid(h) Ollathair, or "All-father (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-father)") and a protector of the tribe. In some texts his father is Elatha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elatha), in others his mother is Ethniu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethniu). Other texts say that his mother is Danu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)); while others yet place him as the father of Danu, perhaps due to her association with Brigit (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigid).
...
His lover was Boann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann) and his daughter was Breg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breg_(Irish_mythology)). 1) Brighid/Brigit/Breg is also known as Dana
Zorya is also known as Dana

2) Zorya = dawn, Dan = day in Slavic
*bārego- (??) = dawn in proto-Celtic
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

3) Zorya's home is Bouyan
Brighid's mother is Boann

4) Brighid is tripple godess
Zorya is tripple goddess

5) Zorya's father is Dajbog/Dažbog (bog = god)
Brighid's father is Dagda (da = god)

6) in some myths Zorya's husband = Perun
in some myths Brighid's husband = Tuireann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuireann)

Yetos
31-12-11, 07:40
wow well come back man

Taranis
31-12-11, 10:12
wow well come back man

And yet he still has no understanding of linguistics, because everything he says is based on superficial similarities:




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zorya
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brighid

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creidhne

1) Brighid/Brigit/Breg is also known as Dana
Zorya is also known as Dana

2) Zorya = dawn, Dan = day in Slavic
*bārego- (??) = dawn in proto-Celtic
http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

3) Zorya's home is Bouyan
Brighid's mother is Boann

4) Brighid is tripple godess
Zorya is tripple goddess

5) Zorya's father is Dajbog/Dažbog (bog = god)
Brighid's father is Dagda (da = god)

6) in some myths Zorya's husband = Perun
in some myths Brighid's husband = Tuireann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuireann)

- Brighid is derived from PIE *bhereg´h meaning "high, noble". She is found under the name "Brigantia" across the ancient Celtic world ("Brigantes" tribe in northern England, town names "Brigantium" in Austria, the western Alps in Galicia).

- Boann is derived from "white cow" (Proto-Celtic *bou-winda)

- Female triple deities occur in Irish mythology, the most common combination being Morrigan, Macha, and Badb Catha. Brighid is normally not part of them. Examples of such triple deities occur in other Indo-European mythologies: Greek Moirae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirae), Roman Parcae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcae), Germanic Norns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns).

- Danu is an Indo-European river/mother goddess found both in Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)) and in Hindu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Asura)) mythology. It is clearly unrelated with the Slavic word for day, and a connection with Zorya (or with "Danitsa") is completely spurious.

- Dagda is derived from earlier *Dagodeiwos (as you wrote above), meaning 'good god'. Dagda is also known as "Ollathair"
- Dajbog is derived from Proto-Slavic *dati- (to give, compare with Latin "dare", Greek "dosis") and PIE *bhag- (to divide, compare Sanskrit "bhajati" - "to distribute"). Dajbog is thus the "giving god" or possibly, the "giver of wealth".

- Perun is derived from PIE *perkwus (oak)
- Tuireann is derived from Proto-Celtic *torano- (to thunder)

As you can see, cross-connections and parallels between various Indo-European pantheons exist and it should be hardly surprising that they exist, but not in this way, because the etymologies are clearly very different ones.

how yes no 2
31-12-11, 12:41
Yetos:

wow well come back man


thanks :)



And yet he still has no understanding of linguistics, because everything he says is based on superficial similarities:- Brighid is derived from PIE *bhereg´h meaning "high, noble". She is found under the name "Brigantia" across the ancient Celtic world ("Brigantes" tribe in northern England, town names "Brigantium" in Austria, the western Alps in Galicia). - Boann is derived from "white cow" (Proto-Celtic *bou-winda)- Female triple deities occur in Irish mythology, the most common combination being Morrigan, Macha, and Badb Catha. Brighid is normally not part of them. Examples of such triple deities occur in other Indo-European mythologies: Greek Moirae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moirae), Roman Parcae (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parcae), Germanic Norns (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norns).- Danu is an Indo-European river/mother goddess found both in Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)) and in Hindu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Asura)) mythology. It is clearly unrelated with the Slavic word for day, and a connection with Zorya (or with "Danitsa") is completely spurious.- Dagda is derived from earlier *Dagodeiwos (as you wrote above), meaning 'good god'. Dagda is also known as "Ollathair"- Dajbog is derived from Proto-Slavic *dati- (to give, compare with Latin "dare", Greek "dosis") and PIE *bhag- (to divide, compare Sanskrit "bhajati" - "to distribute"). Dajbog is thus the "giving god" or possibly, the "giver of wealth".- Perun is derived from PIE *perkwus (oak)- Tuireann is derived from Proto-Celtic *torano- (to thunder)As you can see, cross-connections and parallels between various Indo-European pantheons exist and it should be hardly surprising that they exist, but not in this way, because the etymologies are clearly very different ones.

I have no clue how can you be so blindly believing in what you read...

all the interpretations that you mention are just ideas and theories of various linguists and historians who have recently studied origin of those names...

just theories, same as what I wrote is just a theory....albeit different one...it may be right, or it may be wrong....


to my viewpoint there are too many connections to completely discard them.... especially in a way you do it... like an angry teacher... don't you ever ask yourself "what if"...

in fact, let me point out only possible origin of this obvious link...it is PIE peoplewhen they mixed in various other people what of course happened is that the meaning of their deities were sometimes translated, sometimes interpreted with a new meaning....


but curiosity for me is that these are deities of tribes of Tuatha Dé Danann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann) while tripple goddes Zorya (dawn in english) whose alternative name is Danica, I have explained as origin of name Zoryani/Zeruiani/Serians....

in fact, even in ancient Greece, we have triple godess Hecate (ancient Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Greek) Ἑκάτη (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Ἑκάτη) ) and somewhat similar tribal name for Dannans - Akhaioí


The Achaeans (Greek (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_language): Ἀχαιοί, Akhaioí) is one of the collective names used for the Greeks (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greeks) in Homer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homer)'s Iliad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iliad) (used 598 times) and Odyssey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odyssey). The other names are theDanaans (Δαναοί, used 138 times in the Iliad) and Argives (Ἀργεῖοι, used 29 times in the Iliad).

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaeans_(Homer))http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Achaeans_(Homer)

note that Celtic tribe Brigantes we also find in Balkans and later in Asia Minor as Phrygians...

I find those links very interesting and worth exploring... maybe they can lead to identifying PIE people who spread their language and religion across Euro-Asia



- Brighid is derived from PIE *bhereg´h meaning "high, noble". She is found under the name "Brigantia" across the ancient Celtic world ("Brigantes" tribe in northern England, town names "Brigantium" in Austria, the western Alps in Galicia).

that is an assumption made in lack of better theory...

*bārego- (??) = dawn is much more likely name for a goddess, as "high/noble" implies other deities are not high and noble...

it would be blasphemy to give such a name to single deity in large pantheon....

while name such as "dawn" would be very natural...


- Perun is derived from PIE *perkwus (oak)- Tuireann is derived from Proto-Celtic *torano- (to thunder)

Perun is the God whose weapon is thunder.. in fact, same god as Taranis and Thor....oak is also symbol of same deity



In Norse mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norse_mythology), Thor (from Old Norse (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Norse) Þ (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Þ)órr) is a hammer-wielding god associated with thunder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunder), lightning, storms, oak (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak) trees, strength, the protection of mankind, and also hallowing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hallow), healing, and fertility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor)


*Perkwunos (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkwunos), known as the "striker," is reconstructed[8] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_religion#cite_note-7) from Sanskrit Parjanya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parjanya), Prussian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prussian_mythology) Perkuns, Lithuanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuanian_mythology) Perkūnas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perkūnas), Latvian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvian_mythology) Pērkons, Slavic Perun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perun) and NorseFjörgyn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fjörgyn). Fjörgyn was replaced by Thor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thor) among the Germanic speaking peoples. These gods give their names to Thursday, the fifth day of the week, throughcalqueing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calque). The Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_polytheism) hammer god Sucellus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucellus) is of the same character, but with an unrelated name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_religion (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_religion)

but question is could legend of deity Tuireann of tribe Tuatha Dé Danann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann) have been of same origin as Taranis of later Celtic people...



- Danu is an Indo-European river/mother goddess found both in Celtic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)) and in Hindu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Asura)) mythology. It is clearly unrelated with the Slavic word for day, and a connection with Zorya (or with "Danitsa") is completely spurious.

well, it is not spurious...


*Deh2nu- 'River goddess' is reconstructed (Mallory & Adams 2006, p. 434) from Sanskrit Danu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Hindu_goddess)), Irish Danu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danu_(Irish_goddess)); Welsh Dôn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dôn), and a masc. form Ossetic Donbettys. The name has been connected with the Dan rivers which run into the Black Sea (Dnieper (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dnieper), Dniester (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dniester), Don (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_River_(Russia)), and Danube (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube)) and other river names in Celtic areas.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indo-European_religion

note that area around Dnieper, Dniester, Don and Danube is considered to be birth place of early Slavs...

i think it is same goddess, as one of the forms of Zorya triple goddess is mother...

and Zorya is related to river... river of healing


In some tales, she sits under the World Tree on the fiery-stone Alatuir, from which run the four rivers of the Otherworld, and under her seat flows the river of healing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zorya)


Zorica and DanicaThese names mean simply Dawn and Daystar, but in folklore accounts of all Slavic nations, they are often described as persons, or associated with persons, in pretty much the same way as Sun and Moon. Danica is often called Sun's younger sister or daughter, and was probably associated with Morana. Consequently, Zorica (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=The_Zorica&action=edit&redlink=1) was either Sun's mother or older sister. It is quite possible this was a Slavic relic of the Proto-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_religion) dawn god.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology)


note also that

Zaria or Zoria is the goddess (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goddess) of beauty in Slavic mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_mythology).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaria_(goddess)#cite_note-0) A once-popular goddess also associated with the morning, Zaria was known to her worshippers as "the heavenly bride." She was greeted at dawn as "the brightest maiden, pure, sublime, honorable." She was also known as a water priestess that protected warriors.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaria_(goddess)#cite_note-1)Zarya (заря) is the Russian word for "sunrise," or "morning star."[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaria_(goddess)#cite_note-2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zaria_(goddess)



Boann is derived from "white cow" (Proto-Celtic *bou-winda)

assumption...

can you explain rules that can transform: bou + winda to boann

I don't think you can... i think it was just wild guess of some linguist...


Boann or Boand (modern spelling: Bóinn) is the Irish mythology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_mythology) goddess of the River Boyne (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Boyne), a river in Leinster (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leinster), Ireland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland). According to the Lebor Gabála Érenn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebor_Gabála_Érenn) she was the daughter of Delbáeth, son of Elada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elatha), of the Tuatha Dé Danann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann).[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann#cite_note-0) Her husband is variously Nechtan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nechtan), Elcmar (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elcmar) or Nuada (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuada). Her lover is theDagda (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dagda), by whom she had her son, Aengus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aengus). In order to hide their affair, the Dagda made the sun (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun) stand still for nine months; therefore, Aengus was conceived, gestated and born in one day.[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann#cite_note-1)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann

let's look for parallels

Dagda created sun


Dažbog (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dažbog) - Sun god, possibly a culture hero (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_hero) and a source of wealth and power

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_deities (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_deities)

perhaps coincidence, but river Bojana also exists in Montenegro and north Albania
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojana_(river)

how yes no 2
31-12-11, 14:20
some more ideas:


The home of the Zorya was sometimes said to be on Bouyan (or Buyan), an oceanic island paradise where the Sun dwelt along with his attendants, the North, West and East winds.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Zorya


Boann or Boand (modern spelling: Bóinn) is the Irish mythology goddess of the River Boyne, a river in Leinster, Ireland. According to the Lebor Gabála Érenn she was the daughter of Delbáeth, son of Elada, of the Tuatha Dé Danann.[1] Her husband is variously Nechtan, Elcmar or Nuada. Her lover is the Dagda, by whom she had her son, Aengus. In order to hide their affair, the Dagda made the sun stand still for nine months; therefore, Aengus was conceived, gestated and born in one day.[2]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann

Boann is paradise island in one mythology, and river in othercan we explain it?river and island can be related... e.g. river Bojana (Albanian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albanian_language): Bunë or Buna ) starts its voyage from Skadar lake and goes into Adriatic sea...river Bojana on its entrance to Adriatic sea splits in two and creates island "ada Bojana"... however the island as it is now is believed to came into existence only in 17th century when two smaller islands were connected due to a boat sinking in area between them....http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c7/Buna-muendung.jpg/260px-Buna-muendung.jpg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojana_(river) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bojana_(river))

Boann is artifically made river


As told in the metrical Dindshenchas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metrical_Dindshenchas),[3] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann#cite_note-2) Boann created the River Boyne. Though forbidden to by her husband, Nechtan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nechtan), Boann approached the magical well of Segais (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Connla's_Well) (also known as the Well of Wisdom), which was surrounded by hazel trees (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hazel). Nuts from the hazels were known to fall into the well, where they were eaten by the speckled salmon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salmon) (who, along with hazel nuts, also embody and represent wisdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisdom) in Irish myth). Boann challenged the power of the well by walking around it counter-clockwise; this caused the waters to surge up violently and rush down to the sea, creating the River Boyne. In this catastrophe, she was swept along in the rushing waters, and lost an arm, leg and eye, and ultimately her life, in the flood. The poem equates her with famous rivers in other countries, including the Severn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Severn), Tiber (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiber), Jordan (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jordan_River), Tigris (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tigris) and Euphrates (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euphrates).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boann)

1) river Bojana flows out of Skadar lake to Adriatic sea river Boann flows out of magical well Segais to the sea

2) in mythology river Boann was artificially created it is easy to conceive that river Bojana was as well artificially created by creating initial path from lake that is above sea level downwards...

could it be that these links are about mythology of a tribe who first lived in Balkan and than part of it moved to Ireland?

what comes to my mind are Chelidoni and Bryges / Brigantes...both lived near lake Skadar and river Bojana..
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Map_of_ancient_Epirus_and_environs.png
perhaps I2a2-Isles origins from early split of Balkan tribe Bryges that settled UK as Brigantes
Brigantes
5429
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brigantes


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/23/Keltoi_Tribes.PNG

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darini)

http://img94.imageshack.us/img94/4941/remnantpoints.gif

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?26944-The-Paleolithic-Remnants-a-map

Bryges also settled Phrygia in Asia minorhttp://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gifhttp://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25689-New-haplogroup-I2a-map

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2f/Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg/800px-Anatolia_Ancient_Regions_base.svg.png

Yetos
01-01-12, 00:45
So by what I understand How yes No you are supporting the Idea that Bryges were Celts
the Briganti tribe or relative to them,
that means you exclude the Burgundi theory for Bryges, and you Bring South Thracian more close to Celtic than Germanic and Slavic.
is that that point and conclusion?

how yes no 2
01-01-12, 02:56
So by what I understand How yes No you are supporting the Idea that Bryges were Celts the Briganti tribe or relative to them, that means you exclude the Burgundi theory for Bryges, and you Bring South Thracian more close to Celtic than Germanic and Slavic. is that that point and conclusion?

well, I do not know.... languages and cultures of compact ethnic group carriers of certain gene mix can change through history...Bryges might or might not not have been Celtic, but a part of them that perhaps traveled from Balkan to UK might have been celticized during the voyage...

however, I do think that most of I2a2 was at some time in their history associated with Celts... that link keeps reoccurring...but I find it hard to explain language shift in I2a-din speakers...they must have been living deep in Slavic surrounding for long time... perhaps language shift happened in Galicia in Ukraine....which is hotspot of I2a-Din and has name that is easily mark of Celtic settlement....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/Ukraine-Halychyna.png/800px-Ukraine-Halychyna.pnghttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galicia_(Eastern_Europe)

http://www.eupedia.com/images/content/Haplogroup_I2a.gif


so what could have happened in that Scordisci and other Celtic tribes from Balkan go north upon Roman invasion and settled areas such as west Ukraine and south Poland where they accept Slavic language and from there later spread first to Bohemia and east Germany and than to Balkan.....

mrikë
01-01-12, 16:29
Following the logic of the user "how yes no", I took the liberty to weave some similarities between Gaelic words and modern day Albanian language. I'm sure you will be perplexed by this uproarious discovery that should by no means go unnoticed!

Lo' and behold fellow Eupedians:

ambassador: Gaelic *ambacto - Albanian "a ma ba k'to" (trans.: can you do this for me? as when an ambassador goes on and about asking favours from governments)

sugar: Gaelic *siúcra - Albanian "shiqer" (as when a person from Llap visits their neighbours only to ask for a handful of sugar)

Love: Gaelic *Gra - Albanian gra means women (as in the subjects to whom one makes love)

Fellowship: Gaelic *Páirt - Albanian " parí " (as in when you make a fellowship of men to ask for a bride)

This is a major opus, therefore excuse this limited thesaurus I've provided due to short notice. I shall keep you up-to-date with novelties on this discovery.

how yes no 2
01-01-12, 17:28
Following the logic of the user "how yes no", I took the liberty to weave some similarities between Gaelic words and modern day Albanian language. I'm sure you will be perplexed by this uproarious discovery that should by no means go unnoticed!

I think that Illyrian language was kind of Celtic or very related to Celtic, so Albanian language as probably somewhat related to Illyrian, should have indeed lot of words shared with Celtic people.

reason to think there is large similarity between illyrian and Celtic languages is that in mythology Illyrus is brother of Celtus and Galas and son of Galatea (which may stand for Galatia area in Anatolia)

However, be aware that there are also theories that argue that Celtic was about culture not about single language...


Polyphemus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyphemus) and Galatea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galatea) as parents of Celtus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtus), Galas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galas) and Illyrius (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyrius).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illyria

I suggest you to check out dictionary of proto-Celtic words

http://www.utoronto.ca/elul/English/218/PVL-selections.pdf

but please do it in separate thread, as you will likely have lot of materials that do not fit in this thread....

as for the words above first two are shared by most or all european languages... and so is the one for fellowship ('pair' in english)... so be aware to look for words that do not exist in PIE and are not shared in all or most of european languages...

taking out those words from your examples, reduces your list to single word:
Love: Gaelic *Gra - Albanian gra means women (as in the subjects to whom one makes love)

"gra" reminds me on verb "grejati" - to make warm in serbian
and noun "igra" = game, playing

Taranis
01-01-12, 18:03
Following the logic of the user "how yes no", I took the liberty to weave some similarities between Gaelic words and modern day Albanian language. I'm sure you will be perplexed by this uproarious discovery that should by no means go unnoticed!

Lo' and behold fellow Eupedians:

ambassador: Gaelic *ambacto - Albanian "a ma ba k'to" (trans.: can you do this for me? as when an ambassador goes on and about asking favours from governments)

sugar: Gaelic *siúcra - Albanian "shiqer" (as when a person from Llap visits their neighbours only to ask for a handful of sugar)

Love: Gaelic *Gra - Albanian gra means women (as in the subjects to whom one makes love)

Fellowship: Gaelic *Páirt - Albanian " parí " (as in when you make a fellowship of men to ask for a bride)

This is a major opus, therefore excuse this limited thesaurus I've provided due to short notice. I shall keep you up-to-date with novelties on this discovery.

Are you trying to do this to make a point here, because it does not make the slightest sense. :laughing:

Regarding how-yes-no, I have nothing to say because you didn't listen in the past. You have absolutely no understanding of linguistic methodology, and have absolutely willingness either to understand it (I also remember your adament opposition to the very idea that Proto-Slavic adopted a lot of loanwords from Germanic and began to only fragment in the wake of the Migration Period, something which is generally accepted), and I think is pointless to continue arguing with you there.

mrikë
01-01-12, 18:57
Indeed I am respected Taranis. Unfortunately, my tone of humor, to put it lightly, went unnoticed by some.
In my opinion the respected how yes no has been exposed to some Serbian and now his subconscious is playing tricks on him by making everything around him sound like Serbian, which does not make up for his lack of 101 Linguistics.

Yetos
01-01-12, 20:32
well lets stop provoke each other.


How Yes no,

yes I2a Din might or indeed has connection.

the other choice is local native Balcan,

many times I support the Idea that Thracians were I2,

for me it seems like I2a (Balcanic suclades) are connected both with Balkans and Ucraine,

on the other hand making Celts I2a? hmmm
although I do not Deny, it is little difficult,
interesting case the I2a British Isles,
from Balkans to Britain? or tottaly different?

how yes no 2
01-01-12, 22:47
Regarding how-yes-no, I have nothing to say because you didn't listen in the past. You have absolutely no understanding of linguistic methodology, and have absolutely willingness either to understand it (I also remember your adament opposition to the very idea that Proto-Slavic adopted a lot of loanwords from Germanic and began to only fragment in the wake of the Migration Period, something which is generally accepted), and I think is pointless to continue arguing with you there.

you have nothing to say because all your arguments in previous post, regarding links in mythologies, turned out to be just your ego based belief without any support....
so you simply want to exit discussion in a way that makes you look above it.....
but I am not here to prove my worth or to lower your worth (you do that yourself) I was explaining alternative view on voyage of I2a-Din... idea that part of its history was as Celto-Germanic people is definitively an option... regardless of your linguistic arguments...

considering my objection to Germanic loanwords in slavic languages, I was not objecting existence and widespread of those, I was objecting those of your explanations that were biased and irational, divorced from logic....loanwords in slavic languages are easily explainable with assimilation of some Germanic speaking tribes...not by cultural and every kind of supremacy of Goths as you in your racist mindset have tried to put it...


well lets stop provoke each other.
How Yes no,

yes I2a Din might or indeed has connection.

the other choice is local native Balcan,

many times I support the Idea that Thracians were I2,
i think diversity of I2 would be higher there if that was the case....
Thracians were maybe R1a people... same as Russians...

I2a is complex... I think it was wide spread in area and was participating in genesis of ancient Greeks as well ...



for me it seems like I2a (Balcanic suclades) are connected both with Balkans and Ucraine,
those are frequencies... source of the clade (first man with mutation) is proposed to be somewhere in north Germany...


on the other hand making Celts I2a? hmmm
although I do not Deny, it is little difficult,
I do not say Celts were I2a
I say most of I2a2-Din people was at some point in history (around 1AD) considered Celtic or even Germanic people....


interesting case the I2a British Isles,
from Balkans to Britain? or tottaly different?
current hypothesys of Ken Nordvedth is from Germany to both...

but I was thinking it may have been from Balkan to UK e.g. by ships to Iberia and than by ships to UK... like Balkan Chelidoni became Kaladuni in Iberia and Caledonii in UK...
which can be traced back knowing about legend of origin of Scotish people
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html
interestingly, they have considered themselves as Scythians...




Most Holy Father and Lord, we know and from the chronicles and books of the ancients we find that among other famous nations our own, the Scots, has been graced with widespread renown. They journeyed from Greater Scythia by way of the Tyrrhenian Sea and the Pillars of Hercules, and dwelt for a long course of time in Spain among the most savage tribes, but nowhere could they be subdued by any race, however barbarous. Thence they came, twelve hundred years after the people of Israel crossed the Red Sea, to their home in the west where they still live today. The Britons they first drove out, the Picts they utterly destroyed, and, even though very often assailed by the Norwegians, the Danes and the English, they took possession of that home with many victories and untold efforts; and, as the historians of old time bear witness, they have held it free of all bondage ever since. In their kingdom there have reigned one hundred and thirteen kings of their own royal stock, the line unbroken a single foreigner.
http://www.geo.ed.ac.uk/home/scotland/arbroath_english.html


pay attention to timing 1200 years after people of Israel crossed Red sea to west escaping their slavery in Egypt... as this happened 1400BC, it means that Caladunii sailed from Iberia to UK only at 200 BC, but they stayed before that for very long time in Iberia...

in Iberia in Celtic area of Gallaecia next to the Caladuni you also find Celtic Seurbi and Helleni who were all probably part of same wave of colonization as Chelidoni...
it is comparable to collonization of Americas and Australia much later....


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b5/Iberia_300BC.svg


movement of people from Balkan to UK would account for similarities in myths, and would left genetic imprint...
e.g. that is much more likely source for unexpectedly increased E-V13 in UK and Portugal than settlement of Roman soldiers as S.Byrd proposed...
but could have also been the way in which I2a clades arrived to uk

what I proposed is same origin in some ancient history of Balkan Bryges and UK Brigantes... I suspected Bryges/Brigantes as in england (not in ireland) their position seems to match somewhat I2a2-isles spread on map of sparkey....it is known that Bryges did give Phrygians... Maciamo's map places hotspot of I2a in Phrygia& Galatia and also in area of Albania where we find Bryges...
but

if they carried I2a2 that became I2a2-Isles, their movement would have been much before historic times, before I2a2 differentiated into Isles branch...in fact, Bryges came to Balkan from Lusatia which is in Germany during late bronze age... hence Bryges could have been carriers of I2a2 to both UK and Balkan...
this means that myths and similarities I mention have came to existence before their migration to Balkan...

but myths are related to tuath de Daanan...
tribe of Dan...Tuatha de Danann myths seems to be very PIE and most similar to Celtic myths..

in fact Danann suggest link to ancient Greek tribe known as Danaans....
what I argued is the link between tribal names Brigantes/Bryges/Phrygians and Zoryani/Zeruiani/Serians and Danaans / Acheans... note that this is long time back in history.... tribal name can be cultural or religious issue, not necessarily same genetics, but in most cases there is also partly shared genetics...

curiously, Tuatha de Danann also relate their origin to Scythia as their first king is Agnoman of Scythi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scythia)a
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann


well, it is all just an idea... not well formed theory...
and I do not really have much time or interest to work it out...
but it would be nice if someone who knows more think of it...

MOESAN
02-01-12, 15:51
Following the logic of the user "how yes no", I took the liberty to weave some similarities between Gaelic words and modern day Albanian language. I'm sure you will be perplexed by this uproarious discovery that should by no means go unnoticed!

Lo' and behold fellow Eupedians:

ambassador: Gaelic *ambacto - Albanian "a ma ba k'to" (trans.: can you do this for me? as when an ambassador goes on and about asking favours from governments)

sugar: Gaelic *siúcra - Albanian "shiqer" (as when a person from Llap visits their neighbours only to ask for a handful of sugar)

Love: Gaelic *Gra - Albanian gra means women (as in the subjects to whom one makes love)

Fellowship: Gaelic *Páirt - Albanian " parí " (as in when you make a fellowship of men to ask for a bride)

This is a major opus, therefore excuse this limited thesaurus I've provided due to short notice. I shall keep you up-to-date with novelties on this discovery.

even if I don't agree all the time with him (but almost, because I can guess on his answers that he has a very important knowledge (and logic) about linguistic, a knowledge I should be very glad to share with him) I begin to understand why Taranis is sad sometimes, reading some elucubrations plays - there are laws in linguistic and etymology, don't forget it - and nevertheless i'm not at all a defender of the officiality in science
'ambacto' : try to show a community of origin by comparing a compact ancient word in a language with a modern complete predicat (sentance) in a modern language is a child's play
'siucra' is a loan world from an old I-E origin (sanskrit 'çarkarâ') BUT PASSED THROUGH ARABIC ('sukkar') and it got to be common in almost every modern language of Europe and don't prove any special community shared exclusively by Celts and others peoples -
'gra' was 'gradh' << 'grad' and come for I know from latin or a ?*-celto-italic (latin 'grâtus' : "pleasant", "nice", "agreable")
for 'pairt' I don't know but I should guess a common origin with latin or more generally italic or *celto-italic

it's interesting to do guesses but we have to be carefull when doing it and to gather more than a handful of possibly cognate words before affirm a link between two or more now distant cultures
happy and studius new year for all of us

MOESAN
02-01-12, 15:57
Following the logic of the user "how yes no", I took the liberty to weave some similarities between Gaelic words and modern day Albanian language. I'm sure you will be perplexed by this uproarious discovery that should by no means go unnoticed!

Lo' and behold fellow Eupedians:

ambassador: Gaelic *ambacto - Albanian "a ma ba k'to" (trans.: can you do this for me? as when an ambassador goes on and about asking favours from governments)

sugar: Gaelic *siúcra - Albanian "shiqer" (as when a person from Llap visits their neighbours only to ask for a handful of sugar)

Love: Gaelic *Gra - Albanian gra means women (as in the subjects to whom one makes love)

Fellowship: Gaelic *Páirt - Albanian " parí " (as in when you make a fellowship of men to ask for a bride)

This is a major opus, therefore excuse this limited thesaurus I've provided due to short notice. I shall keep you up-to-date with novelties on this discovery.

even if I don't agree all the time with him (but almost, because I can guess on his answers that he has a very important knowledge (and logic) about linguistic, a knowledge I should be very glad to share with him) I begin to understand why Taranis is sad sometimes, reading some elucubrations plays - there are laws in linguistic and etymology, don't forget it - and nevertheless i'm not at all a defender of the officiality in science
'ambacto' : try to show a community of origin by comparing a compact ancient word in a language with a modern complete predicat (sentance) in a modern language is a child's play
'siucra' is a loan world from an old I-E origin (sanskrit 'çarkarâ') BUT PASSED THROUGH ARABIC ('sukkar') and it got to be common in almost every modern language of Europe and don't prove any special community shared exclusively by Celts and others peoples -
'gra' was 'gradh' << 'grad' and come for I know from latin or a ?*-celto-italic (latin 'grâtus' : "pleasant", "nice", "agreable")
for 'pairt' I don't know but I should guess a common origin with latin or more generally italic or *celto-italic

it's interesting to do guesses but we have to be carefull when doing it and to gather more than a handful of possibly cognate words before affirm a link between two or more now distant cultures
happy and studius new year for all of us

mihaitzateo
25-04-12, 04:41
I do not deny that are cognates between south slavic and celtic language but some of the cognates from here seems forced.
A good cognate,linked to bagpipe,but not to celts from Great Britain,to those from Portugal:
bagpipe - in english - gajde in albanian - gajde in serbo-croatian and gaiida in bulgarian,gajta/gaita de fole in portughesse/spanish/galician.
Is not linked to latin,to germanic languages or to slavic languages,in other slavic languages is called different.
In romanian is cimpoi,no ideea from where this is taken.
And a custom that could be a influence from celts in Balkans,they are seeing the dragon in folk traditions as some positive creature that guard the lands from some evil female deity.
And if you want some serbian folklore celtic music here is something for you:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ptwl9LUFrU

dublin
15-05-12, 18:51
taranis


I'm not ignorant. I'm sticking to facts, not fantasy.
You're interpreting too much in this. When Strabo says that the Greeks encountered Celts on every continent doesn't mean that Celtic tribes settled on every continent. In fact, there's a far more plausible explanation for this: Galatian mercenaries operated in the entire eastern Mediterranean and provided service to the basically all of the Hellenistic sucessor kingdoms in the region, including at the court of the Ptolemaic dynasty in Egypt. There's no need for a mythic Celtic kingdom in North Africa for which there is zero evidence.

now tell me where is native Celtic R1b in Africa? zero...
but there is plenty of native I2a1 all around north Africa....
I am convinced these I2a1 people were Garamantes and as other Gomer ( Cimmerian ) derived people were original Celts...





The Garamantes were barbers. Period. End of story.

look at this in google

morocco mzoura

the-mysterious-moroccan-megalithic-menhirs-of-mzora

an-afro-asiatic-connection-to-celtic-languages

Taranis
15-05-12, 22:39
taranis

look at this in google

morocco mzoura

the-mysterious-moroccan-megalithic-menhirs-of-mzora

Hello Dublin,

I'm sorry to say this, but megalithic sites are no evidence for Celtic languages. Megalithic traditions in Europe go back far into the Neolithic, and are very widespread, from the Mediterranean to Denmark, and are also found outside of Europe. And, while it is not known what language(s) the people of Neolithic Europe spoke, they are generally thought to have been speakers of non-Indo-European languages.


an-afro-asiatic-connection-to-celtic-languages

This is very a different story. There are rivaling hypotheses on how the various branches of the Celtic languages are related to each other. The Afroasiatic substrate hypothesis assumes that the original division in the Celtic languages was between the Continental Celtic (ie. Celtiberian, Gaulish) and Insular Celtic (ie. Brythonic - Breton, Cornish, Welsh and Goidelic - Irish, Manx Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic). This was based on the following features:

- The Continental Celtic languages had a Subject-Verb-Object word order (SVO), as well as very complex grammar very similar to other "old" Indo-European languages such as Latin, Classical Greek or Sanskrit.

- In contrast to this, in the Insular Celtic languages, the standard word order is Verb-Subject-Object (VSO), and features like consonant mutations and inflected prepositions, which are very untypical of the Indo-European languages, but found in the Afroasiatic languages. Thus idea of the Afroasiatic Substrate Hypothesis is that the pre-Celtic inhabitants of Britain were speakers of an Afroasiatic language, and that the substrate was responsible for these peculiar features in Insular Celtic.

However, it should be pointed out that this substrate hypothesis does not apply to Proto-Celtic (the ancestor language of all Celtic languages), but to Insular Celtic only. However, this substrate hypothesis assumes that the Insular Celtic hypothesis is correct in the first place (since it is not undisputed in scholarly circles). The rivaling hypothesis is the Q/P-Celtic hypothesis, which assumes that Gaulish and Brythonic are more closely related. Additionally, there is very little in the way of any "hard" evidence for an Afroasiatic substrate.

None of the above, even if the Afroasiatic Subrate Hypothesis and the Insular Celtic hypothesis were correct, would prove a Celtic presence in Africa, and certainly not that the Garamentes were a Celtic people.

dublin
16-05-12, 10:56
hi taranis


I'm sorry to say this, but megalithic sites are no evidence for Celtic languages. Megalithic traditions in Europe go back far into the Neolithic, and are very widespread, from the Mediterranean to Denmark, and are also found outside of Europe. And, while it is not known what language(s) the people of Neolithic Europe spoke, they are generally thought to have been speakers of non-Indo-European languages.

Thank you for pointing at the crucial problem of Celtic sciences. The megalithic sites were and still are associated with Celts. Because original documented sites were found in Britain and Ireland, during the Celtic revival, inhabitants of these countries which spoke Gaelic languages were branded Celts. This is the original wrong hypothesis. This is why we have so many weird and unexpected things when it comes to Celtic culture, language and genetics.
In my opinion Gaelic language speakers are not Celts. They had contacts with Celts due to Celtic invasions of Gaelic countries and this is where the common words come from. Celts or galls were always regarded in Gaelic countries as foreigners, and the word for foreigner in Gaelic is gall. Gaulish languages (the actual Celtic languages) have a lot of similarities with Serbian and other Slavic languages because they were either one and the same people originally, or because Serbs and Celts lived together on same territories for a long time and thus influenced each other languages.

dublin
16-05-12, 11:03
As to who built megalithic sites this will have to remain a mystery at least for now. But finding all these stone circles in north Africa, Balkans, Asia and north America, is forcing the re-evaluation of the farce which is “megalithic Celts were common ancestors of western Europeans...”

dublin
16-05-12, 16:22
taranis, hyn


Instead, the Germanic people refered to thsemelves as something akin to "Touta-" ("people", "tribe") - a word which is also attested in Celtic languages (Gaulish "Toutatis" - "tribal father", Irish "Tuath", Welsh "Tud"), Baltic languages (Latvian, Lithuanian "Tauta") and even modern Germanic languages themselves ("Dutch", "Deutsch").

In Serbian there is an old word "Tušta" pronounced "tushta" which means all. The expression in Serbian "Tušta i tma" means lots and lots of people, so many it is impossible to count them all, like in this sentence: “Skupilo se sveta tušta i tma” meaning “So many people gathered, it was impossible to count them”. "Stuštiti se" means to all run down together like in a battle.
Maybe this is the missing Serbian equivalent of “tuatha” you were looking for.

dublin
16-05-12, 18:04
This resulted in the formation of a gradient of haplogroup 1 genes throughout the continent, the lowest frequency of these ancient genes being found in Turkey, and the highest frequency in Ireland, with intermediate frequencies in continental populations. In Ireland 78.1% of all men have the haplogroup 1 gene.
In Ireland men with Gaelic names have higher frequencies of this ancient marker than men with non-Gaelic names. For example, men in Ireland with surnames of English origin have 62% haplogroup 1 genes; men with Scottish names have 52.9% and men with Norman and Norse names have 83%. In Leinster, 73.3% of men with Gaelic surnames have this gene, in Munster, 94.6% and in Ulster 81.1%.
The most striking finding was that in Connaught, the westernmost point of Europe, almost all men (98.3%) carry this particular gene. This means that the people of Connaught have been relatively isolated, genetically, from the movements of people that shaped the genetic makeup of the rest of the continent. By comparison, in the east of the country there has been a lot more mixing of genes coming from foreign sources.
The prevalence of ancient genes in Ireland suggests that the Irish have largely maintained their pre-Neolithic genetic heritage. There has been little genetic influence from outside the country since the first people came to Ireland almost 9,000 years ago.

dublin
16-05-12, 18:06
but in Britain

In 2007, Bryan Sykes produced an analysis of 6000 samples from the OGAP project in his book Blood of the Isles.[3] Later, Stephen Oppenheimer in his 2006 book The Origins of the British used the data from Weale et al. (2002), Capelli et al. (2003) and Rosser et al. (2000) for Europe. In opposition to Neolithic origin theories, which remain strong, Sykes and Oppenheimer argued for significant immigration from Iberia into Britain and Ireland. Much of this argument was based upon Y DNA evidence, however by 2010 several major Y DNA studies presented more complete data, showing that the oldest-surviving male lineages had mostly migrated to Britain from the Balkans, and ultimately from the Middle East, not from Iberia.[4][5][6]
In the North Welsh town of Abergele there is a very high percentage of haplogroup E1b1b1 (33%), which is thought to have dispersed around Europe mainly from the Balkans.[15]

dublin
16-05-12, 18:07
and more on genetic Atlantean pople

In Trinity College Dublin, Prof. Dan Bradley and his team are using Irish Dna to explore our ancient origins and connections with other peoples. As part of this research, they have discovered that 20% of men in the north-west of Ireland are descended from just one man, Niall of the Nine Hostages, the well known high king from the 4th century who brought St Patrick as a slave to Ireland.

The Irish are strongly predisposed to the genetic variants that can trigger diseases such as cystic fibrosis, an enzyme deficiency called phenylketonuria and haemochromatosis, the disease that caused the death of former tanaiste Brian Lenihan.
Yet significant susceptibility levels for these disorders are also exhibited by others in what is generally described as the Celtic people. This includes what Bradley describes as the “Atlantic façade”, places along the Atlantic seaboard where the Celtic languages were spoken including Brittany, Scotland, Wales, Cornwall and also northern Spain, particularly in the Basque regions.

sparkey
16-05-12, 20:48
Dublin, please start citing your sources and indicating that quotes are quotes rather than your own writing.


In Ireland 78.1% of all men have the haplogroup 1 gene.
...
In Ireland men with Gaelic names have higher frequencies of this ancient marker than men with non-Gaelic names.
...
The prevalence of ancient genes in Ireland suggests that the Irish have largely maintained their pre-Neolithic genetic heritage. There has been little genetic influence from outside the country since the first people came to Ireland almost 9,000 years ago.

"Haplogroup 1" is a really, really old term for haplogroup R1b. The fact that this term is being used indicates how outdated this information is.

Haplogroup R1b is indeed more frequent among Gaelic and Brythonic peoples than among, say, Anglo-Saxon descendants, but it's not, as your source says, indicative of "pre-Neolithic genetic heritage." In fact, it's strong evidence against it. For an introduction, try reading Maciamo's R1b page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml).


In opposition to Neolithic origin theories, which remain strong, Sykes and Oppenheimer argued for significant immigration from Iberia into Britain and Ireland. Much of this argument was based upon Y DNA evidence, however by 2010 several major Y DNA studies presented more complete data, showing that the oldest-surviving male lineages had mostly migrated to Britain from the Balkans, and ultimately from the Middle East, not from Iberia.[4][5][6]

"From Iberia" is a largely outdated theory based on modern frequencies, and "from the Balkans" is a bit simplistic, and doesn't tell the whole story. The historical migration of Haplogroup R1b is a complex subject.


In the North Welsh town of Abergele there is a very high percentage of haplogroup E1b1b1 (33%), which is thought to have dispersed around Europe mainly from the Balkans.[15]

"The Balkans" is too narrow; E1b is Southern European in general in the context of Europe. A Welsh town having a high frequency of it indicates a founder effect. They possibly descend from a Roman soldier (unless a more detailed later analysis has proven this wrong), but there are also plenty of other possibilities.


In Trinity College Dublin, Prof. Dan Bradley and his team are using Irish Dna to explore our ancient origins and connections with other peoples. As part of this research, they have discovered that 20% of men in the north-west of Ireland are descended from just one man, Niall of the Nine Hostages, the well known high king from the 4th century who brought St Patrick as a slave to Ireland.

These conclusions have been considered questionable from the beginning, including by the authors themselves. To begin with, we don't know Niall's haplotype. All they really demonstrated was a regional founder effect of R1b in Ireland.

dublin
16-05-12, 22:35
i would like to add sources but i am nor yet allowed to post links :)


"Haplogroup 1" is a really, really old term for haplogroup R1b

don't be picky. you know what i mean.


Haplogroup R1b is indeed more frequent among Gaelic and Brythonic peoples than among, say, Anglo-Saxon descendants, but it's not, as your source says, indicative of "pre-Neolithic genetic heritage." In fact, it's strong evidence against it


my source is Trinity College Dublin stady. Trinity College Dublin genetics department was aworded as one the best in the world.



"From Iberia" is a largely outdated theory based on modern frequencies, and "from the Balkans" is a bit simplistic, and doesn't tell the whole story.


says who?

the study of irish and uk brown bear remains (now extinct) has shown that they discend from iberian genetic sub type. this means that at some stage there was a land mass connecting british isles and iberia. if bears could go accross so could the people.



"The Balkans" is too narrow; E1b is Southern European in general in the context of Europe. A Welsh town having a high frequency of it indicates a founder effect. They possibly descend from a Roman soldier (unless a more detailed later analysis has proven this wrong), but there are also plenty of other possibilities.


source is wikipedia genetic map of britain.

sparkey
16-05-12, 23:08
don't be picky. you know what i mean.

My point is that population genetics is a fast-moving field, and conclusions drawn from as little data as we had back when Haplogroup R1b wasn't even called R1b yet are of no real value anymore.


my source is Trinity College Dublin stady. Trinity College Dublin genetics department was aworded as one the best in the world.

That doesn't make the conclusions any less outdated. Since then, there have been significant advancements in international SNP testing, STR diversity analyses and dating, and ancient DNA studies. You can start with Maciamo's sources page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#Sources) for some scholarly corroboration. Jean Manco also keeps a good running tally of current ancient DNA samples here (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml). The earliest R1b discovered so far dates to Beaker Culture.


the study of irish and uk brown bear remains (now extinct) has shown that they discend from iberian genetic sub type. this means that at some stage there was a land mass connecting british isles and iberia. if bears could go accross so could the people.

Sure, there could have been ancient migrations between the British Isles and Iberia that predate the Neolithic, but that has little to do with R1b-L11, which is younger than the beginning of the Neolithic. The modern haplogroup with the best possibility of dating to the Paleolithic in Northwestern Europe is haplogroup I, possibly alongside some others that are very rare or extinct nowadays. Comparing the age of I vs. R1b in Western Europe... there is no comparison, I is about 4 times as old.


source is wikipedia genetic map of britain.

Does that discount anything I said?

hope
17-05-12, 00:11
My point is that population genetics is a fast-moving field, and conclusions drawn from as little data as we had back when Haplogroup R1b wasn't even called R1b yet are of no real value anymore.



That doesn't make the conclusions any less outdated. Since then, there have been significant advancements in international SNP testing, STR diversity analyses and dating, and ancient DNA studies. You can start with Maciamo's sources page (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/origins_haplogroups_europe.shtml#Sources) for some scholarly corroboration. Jean Manco also keeps a good running tally of current ancient DNA samples here (http://www.buildinghistory.org/distantpast/ancientdna.shtml). The earliest R1b discovered so far dates to Beaker Culture.



Sure, there could have been ancient migrations between the British Isles and Iberia that predate the Neolithic, but that has little to do with R1b-L11, which is younger than the beginning of the Neolithic. The modern haplogroup with the best possibility of dating to the Paleolithic in Northwestern Europe is haplogroup I, possibly alongside some others that are very rare or extinct nowadays. Comparing the age of I vs. R1b in Western Europe... there is no comparison, I is about 4 times as old.



Does that discount anything I said?



Good post sparkey, it answered a few questions I had.

how yes no 3
17-05-12, 01:25
taranis, hyn



In Serbian there is an old word "Tušta" pronounced "tushta" which means all. The expression in Serbian "Tušta i tma" means lots and lots of people, so many it is impossible to count them all, like in this sentence: “Skupilo se sveta tušta i tma” meaning “So many people gathered, it was impossible to count them”. "Stuštiti se" means to all run down together like in a battle.
Maybe this is the missing Serbian equivalent of “tuatha” you were looking for.


"tušta" is not equivalent of "Tuatha"

"tušta" is word that in Celtic means same as in Serbian -heap, abundance of something

*heap (?) | *tus-tV- (Gall., B), *teus-t- (W, B) | tušta (abundance of something.. e.g. on heap)

tuatha is PIE word... for group of people
closest word in Serbian in sound and meaning is probably "četa" - which is group of people organized in military unit....

it is interesting that "tušta" is typically used in Serbian in phrase "Tušta i tma" where neither "tušta" nor "tma" can be related to any other Slavic words.... like some other words I found here it is somehow not kind of language that literature professors would appreciate.... more like something in between archaic and slang... like part of some parallel alternative language that is still alive.... my guess is that it is a part of a vocabulary inhereted from a suppressed language.... question is where does it come from?

Scordisci did live practically in what is Serbia today... and ancient Celtic tribe that penetrates in Thrace from area of Scordisci and gradually become Thracanized has name Serdi which is in my opinion just thracanized version of Scordisci....Sc -> S same as Sclaveni are in fact Slaveni
hence S(c)ord - isci and Serd - i are in my opinion same tribal name with celtic and thracian endings...

from Serdi to Serbi there is just a little step... but important to notice is that this is just an idea...

alternatively, Celtic words in Serbian can come from words originating from language of Scordisci (previous inhabitants of Serbia) that were first adopted in vulgar latin that was imposed in region and than still preserved in Serbian.... however, while few words are exclusively linked to Serbian, most found matches also exist in other Slavic languages indicating that it is more than just adaption of words via vulgar latin, indicating that perhaps some celtic people participated in ethnogenesys of Slavic people

a clue for its correctness could be I2a-din (I2a1b1) as its other hotspot besides Serbo-Croat areas is in Ukraine in Galicia.... in my opinion Galicia same as Galatia in Asia minor is a name originally used for settlements of Celts or Gaels....

i also do remember sparkey (sparkey, correct me if i am wrong) mentioned some other rare I2a groups that some researchers speculate of belonging to Celtic people....

personally, I also suspect that I2a1a (dominant in Sardinia and found accross west Mediterraen including north Africa) in originally part of Celtic people because Celts were found in north Africa same as I2a1 (unlike other haplogroups common today in Europe) ... there is evidence of Strabo that Celts are found in Europe, Asia and Africa...


138 Few nations have wandered so far and wide as the Galatæ. We meet with them in Europe, Asia, andAfrica, under the various names of Galatæ Galatians, Gauls, and Kelts. Galatia, in Asia Minor, was settled by one of these hordes.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0239:book=1:chapter= 3&highlight=galatia

I also tend to relate these people to Gomer/Cimmerian and Gomerians in north Africa....

Gomer is a name of person in mythology that is traditionally related to Germanic people... in Asia this seems to correlate with I2a2 (former I2b, which is together with I1 it is considered kind of marker of migrations of early Germanic tribes)....roman empire authors do speculate that name Germans means seed/source/ofshoot and they pinpoint that name is used for original Celts...they originally apply name essentially to Suebi or Swabians of today....

hence, it is not inconceivable that tribal names like Scordisci, Serdi, Sardinians and Suebi were originally spread by some I2 peoples who might have been among bearers of Celtic culture.... perhaps Serbi or Serbs would be the part of them who lived in east Europe and has merged with other east European people such as Thracians, Dacians, Venedi and Sarmatians to give modern Slavs...

on other hand, number of shared words between Slavic/Serbian and Celtic is not really too big... its probably much less than needed to establishing any hypothesys about direct legacy based on linguistic...

dublin
17-05-12, 11:56
Sparkey


My point is that population genetics is a fast-moving field, and conclusions drawn from as little data as we had back when Haplogroup R1b wasn't even called R1b yet are of no real value anymore.

All the data is from studies done in last two and a half years. I copied the excerpt from an article and that is the term they used.

I am not genetics expert, just thought it might be interesting to draw the attention of people here to this particular data.
What I think this data shows is that the oldest inhabitants of Ireland and Britain were of an Atlantic - North African stock. These are the gaelic speaking people. Then the Celts and other Euro – Asians came from or through Balkans. I believe that the mixing happened primarily in today’s British isles, where Gaels had their colonies in Wales and Scotland, and Galls had significant colonies in Ireland too. The gaelic people coming from Ireland and Gallic people coming from France had lived side by side for a long enough period to influence each other’s languages and cultures in general.
During the emigration to America, Australia... it was mostly poor gaelic speaking people who emigrated, especially during and after the potato famine. Not to mention over a million, mostly gaelic speaking, people who died during the famine in Ireland. All that must have surely altered the genetic print. It would be interesting to do a genetic analysis of gaelic Diaspora and see how it compares with the current Irish and the other Atlantean nations.
Today the majority of people in Britain have the Balkan Genes mostly because the Atlantean genetic stock has either died out or has emigrated and has been replaced by the more prosperous Balkan genetic stock.
The reason why the Atlantean genes survived in the west and north of Ireland is because these are very traditional, poor areas with almost no immigration, where there has been a lot of inbreeding in order to preserve the land ownership. Incidentally these are the last remaining gaelic speaking areas still left in Ireland. The situation is pretty much the same in other gaelic speaking areas in Wales and Scotland.

dublin
17-05-12, 12:20
For more megalithic stuff from Morocco look for "stele de Maaziz", Louis Chatelain Archaeological Museum Rabat.

Also look for “Amazigh tabzimt”


Among Berber women in the Mahgreb there is also the widespread use of fibulae - pins - to fasten garments. These are similar to but more elaborate than the more commonly known Celtic penannular brooches. Called in Berber/Amazigh tabzimt, tizerzay, and tazersit and in Arabic bzima, kitfiyya, and khellala they go back at least to Antiquity.

dublin
17-05-12, 14:12
how yes no


"tušta" is not equivalent of "Tuatha"

"tušta" is word that in Celtic means same as in Serbian -heap, abundance of something

*heap (?) | *tus-tV- (Gall., B), *teus-t- (W, B) | tušta (abundance of something.. e.g. on heap)

tuatha is PIE word... for group of people


I believe that you are missing the meaning here. Tušta means a very, very large group and when used in relation to people can mean a horde or a tribe or an army.

sparkey
17-05-12, 17:41
All the data is from studies done in last two and a half years. I copied the excerpt from an article and that is the term they used.

The original article (http://www.insideireland.com/sample19.htm) doesn't seem to have a copyright date, but it was quoted as early as 2002 (http://genforum.genealogy.com/berryman/messages/929.html). That's the Stone Age of population genetics.


I am not genetics expert, just thought it might be interesting to draw the attention of people here to this particular data.

That's fine, although you'll find that we have a lot of population genetics hobbyists here, who will be quick to correct anything that's wrong or outdated.


What I think this data shows is that the oldest inhabitants of Ireland and Britain were of an Atlantic - North African stock. These are the gaelic speaking people. Then the Celts and other Euro – Asians came from or through Balkans.

How does this data show that at all? R1b is the most common haplogroup in most places all over Western Europe, and as I've pointed out, we've since learned that the variety of R1b (L11+) that's by far the most common in Western Europe is no older than the Neolithic. What haplogroup do you suppose "the Celts and other Euro - Asians" had that the Gaels didn't?


During the emigration to America, Australia... it was mostly poor gaelic speaking people who emigrated, especially during and after the potato famine. Not to mention over a million, mostly gaelic speaking, people who died during the famine in Ireland. All that must have surely altered the genetic print. It would be interesting to do a genetic analysis of gaelic Diaspora and see how it compares with the current Irish and the other Atlantean nations.

I agree with this. It's also interesting to note that "Germanic" haplogroups like R1b-U106, R1a, I1, and I2a2a tend to be a little more frequent in Ireland than in Wales. And since we know that Wales has had English influence over time, that seems to be evidence that Ireland has had similar influence on at least the same scale (older, pre-Modern Germanic influence in both places acknowledged).


Today the majority of people in Britain have the Balkan Genes mostly because the Atlantean genetic stock has either died out or has emigrated and has been replaced by the more prosperous Balkan genetic stock.
The reason why the Atlantean genes survived in the west and north of Ireland is because these are very traditional, poor areas with almost no immigration, where there has been a lot of inbreeding in order to preserve the land ownership. Incidentally these are the last remaining gaelic speaking areas still left in Ireland. The situation is pretty much the same in other gaelic speaking areas in Wales and Scotland.

You will find that there is a marker that Gaels have in abundance: R1b-L21 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21). However, you'll also find that it's very closely related to the "Celt" markers (R1b-U152 and others) and only a little bit farther from the most common "West Germanic" marker (R1b-U106). So, Gaels are often distinguishable in the context of Ireland, but they are not pre-Neolithic, or separable from the others along an Atlantean/Balkan dichotomy.

R1b-L21 is also far from endangered... as the English also carry it in rather high frequency, and the Welsh, Cornish, Scots, and Bretons even more so. And these groups, along with the Irish, have spread it all over, lots of places. The fact that it has survived in an appropriate proportion to the amount of pre-Germanic autosomal input in the English demonstrates that it has no competitive disadvantage.

dublin
17-05-12, 17:58
Sparkey

Thanks for your reply. As I said I am no expert in genetics. When you say:


You will find that there is a marker that Gaels have in abundance: R1b-L21 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21). However, you'll also find that it's very closely related to the "Celt" markers (R1b-U152 and others) and only a little bit farther from the most common "West Germanic" marker (R1b-U106).

When you look at the map for R1b-L21 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21) you can clearly see that it only exists in Atlantic region and is most prevalent in Ireland. Surly this supports the Atlantean stock hypothesis?
And when you say that “R1b-U152” is “Celtic” what do you mean? We don’t actually know who “Celts” were and if they even existed. Why are you calling “R1b-U152” Celtic?

dublin
17-05-12, 18:05
A bit of linguistics:

Irish expression “tar aish” or “tareis” means “after” or “beyond” as in these two sentences:


Ta se deich noimead tar eis a naoi
PRONOUNCED: Taw shay deh no/made tar aish a knee
MEANING: It is ten minutes after nine

Slainte go saol agat,
Bean ar do mhian agat.
Leanbh gach blian agat,
is solas na bhflaitheas tareis antsail seo agat.

roughly pronounced:
Slancha ga sheil agat
Ban ir da vian agat
Toluv gan kis agat
Lanov gach blean agat
Iss solas na vlahas taraish antail sha agat.

"Health for life to you,
A wife of your choice to you,
Land without rent to you,
A child every year to you,
And the light of heaven after this world for you."


Near Belgrade there are two villages, Železnik and Vranic, which both have parts called “taraiš” pronounced “taraish” situated after or beyond the village boundaries. These villages are long and narrow situated on top of wavy hills. Zeleznik means “iron town” or “iron place” or “iron works” or “smelting plant”. In medieval chronicles the place is described as once being the major iron and silver processing center. Roman sarcophagus belonging to a Decurion from second century was found near the village. This means that Zeleznik was important enough to have a military garrison stationed in it. And it has a "Celtic" place name.

Interesting I believe

sparkey
17-05-12, 18:10
When you look at the map for R1b-L21 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21) you can clearly see that it only exists in Atlantic region and is most prevalent in Ireland. Surly this supports the Atlantean stock hypothesis?

I think it does, to a point. Specifically, it's too young to put it in a pre-Neolithic context, so we're looking at something more like a Bronze Age spread, or late Neolithic/Copper Age at the earliest. This is good evidence that the Gaels predate the theorized Halstatt/La Tene expansions, but not by as much as you seem to be implying. Also, since R1b-L21 is so close to other forms of European R1b, we have to assume that if the rest of European R1b passed through the Balkans at one point, so did the ancestors of R1b-L21. That's why we can't have an Atlantean/Balkan dichotamy (but we can entertain a certain "Atlantean" theory for the Gaels... although it's far from a certainty).


And when you say that “R1b-U152” is “Celtic” what do you mean? We don’t actually know who “Celts” were and if they even existed. Why are you calling “R1b-U152” Celtic?

We don't know if the Celts existed? I don't understand. The Gauls were certainly Celts, even in the most strict definition of the term. Anyway, I was thinking of the Alpine Celts, who seem to have had R1b-U152 as their most frequent marker (although Romans also had a lot of R1b-U152... which makes it difficult to distinguish between Alpine Celtic and Roman influence in different places. We've talked about this a lot here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25962-R1b-U152-S28-more-Gaulish-or-Roman)).

zanipolo
18-05-12, 12:08
We don't know if the Celts existed? I don't understand. The Gauls were certainly Celts, even in the most strict definition of the term. Anyway, I was thinking of the Alpine Celts, who seem to have had R1b-U152 as their most frequent marker (although Romans also had a lot of R1b-U152... which makes it difficult to distinguish between Alpine Celtic and Roman influence in different places. We've talked about this a lot here (http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?25962-R1b-U152-S28-more-Gaulish-or-Roman)).

It all depends on if you believe the celts where a cultural identity or purely only a linguistic identity.

Not all gauls would be celts though, the southern ones of france where ligures-celts , IIRC from montpellier to northwest Italy.

If what I read in the book Noricum is correct and that states the "creation " of the celts was east of alsace - basically the french german border , then we have another story in that they did travel easterly , but linguistically they also went west

Alban
21-05-12, 12:30
Oh my GODAnother Slav trying at beeing non-slav.Serbs and Celts?- I think there is a confusion of terms. Maybe you meant the relation between Serbs and Irish. Or better said, since we are talking about pre-roman era the connection between Slavs and Celts? Sure it might have been one (if you insist), but definitely it was not in Balkan. Somewhere around Urals maybe

how yes no 3
22-05-12, 01:48
Oh my GODAnother Slav trying at beeing non-slav.Serbs and Celts?- I think there is a confusion of terms. Maybe you meant the relation between Serbs and Irish. Or better said, since we are talking about pre-roman era the connection between Slavs and Celts? Sure it might have been one (if you insist), but definitely it was not in Balkan. Somewhere around Urals maybe

i think that part of Celts were integrated in proto-Slavs and that that event might be marked in genetics with addition of I2a-din to Balto-Slavic and Scytho-Sarmatian R1a (we know that Balts whose language is much closer than Slavic to original Balto-Slavic are dominantly R1a people, and ancient DNA indicates that Scythians were R1a as well, while we also know that Sarmatians were offshot of Scythians alledgly comming from part of them merging with Amazones woman...hence Sarmatians were likely R1a as well...thus it is likely that I2a-din was originally not Scythian, nor Balto-Slav nor Sarmatian) .

that merging might have happened in Ukraine in Galicia (Galicia is hotspot of I2a-Din north and is area whose name is clearly associated with Celts or Gaels, same as Galatia in Asia minor is).. alternatively, we can suppose that perhaps a part of Scordisci was migrating north after being pushed out from Serbia by expanding Roman empire....

in fact, those two scenarios might be single scenario as Russian primary chronicle speaks of Danubian Slavs originally inhabiting Danube area of Hungary and Bulgaria
(at the times Russian primary chronicle was written down Hungary bordered Bulgaria on Danube and whole that Danube basin is known to have been area of Scordisci /Serdi prior to expansion of Roman empire)
and among them Serbs, Croats and Carantines (that is the ancestors of south Slavs
and we know that south Slavs are main carriers of I2a-din)
who moved to north due to expansion of Vlakhs (Roman empire)...

Russian primary chronicle calls them Danubian Slavs, but it is questionable whether those people actually were Slavic language speakers before migrating to north...

in any case, there is no reason to speak of merging taking place in Balkans, and certainly not in south Balkans... but likely somewhere in north Carpathians.... however I2a-din might have arrived there from northern Balkans....

off course this is all just a hypothesis...

regarding Illyrians, they were in my opinion dominantly E-V13 as this haplogroup shows high diversity (albeit low frequency) in Dalmatia.... but they or some of them could have been I2a-Din carriers as well since in Greek mythology Celtus, Galas and Illyrus are brothers... in fact, it is also possible but not likely that E-V13 is not related to Illyrians but only related to hellenic people and Dardanians (Dardanians being newcomers to illyro-thracian part of Balkan from Asia minor where E-V13 is strong).. Dardani would be likely origin of tribal name Albanians as in medieval times Albanians go under name Arbani (in Serbia) and Arvanites (in Greece)

how yes no 3
22-05-12, 02:19
how yes no



I believe that you are missing the meaning here. Tušta means a very, very large group and when used in relation to people can mean a horde or a tribe or an army.

sure, but "Tuatha" and "tušta" do not really sound as related words...

Endri
22-05-12, 08:51
sure, but "Tuatha" and "tušta" do not really sound as related words...

Ok, just cause two words are similar doesn't prove anything at all. Similar words among languages, even unrelated to each other are always found but if you really want to know, i guess Serbian as every language has it's own set of rules on how the words evolved. Apply those rules to that word "tushta" and the Celtic or whatever language that is, to 'tuatha' and if at the period you're speaking about you end up with the same word, from Serbian and that other language then you can say that those words are related.

Until then is simply speculation and not a very reliable one...

zanipolo
22-05-12, 11:44
Ok, just cause two words are similar doesn't prove anything at all. Similar words among languages, even unrelated to each other are always found but if you really want to know, i guess Serbian as every language has it's own set of rules on how the words evolved. Apply those rules to that word "tushta" and the Celtic or whatever language that is, to 'tuatha' and if at the period you're speaking about you end up with the same word, from Serbian and that other language then you can say that those words are related.

Until then is simply speculation and not a very reliable one...

i tend to agree, even in Italy today ( and the past) an example would be
Mare in Italian means the Sea
Mare in venetian means Mother
same nation , same word , different meaning. Since venetian is older then italian , then one can only speculate that Mare for sea in italian was a combination of venetian Mar and french Mer. .......A typical way of Italian to express itself as being different.

dublin
22-05-12, 16:25
Alban
My point is that Irish are erroneously called Celtic as are all the other R1b-L21 (http://www.eupedia.com/europe/Haplogroup_R1b_Y-DNA.shtml#L21) people. They are not Celts. They are Gaels. Who are the Gaels and where did they come from we don’t know at the moment. If we compare culture and language then I would say north Africa. But we need more north African genetic data.
Now who were Celts then? We don’t know. Were they the same as Gauls? Or were they the same as Serbs or Slavs or Germans? Were they a nation or a caste? Were all these peoples just hordes consisting of many related nations of which Celts were just a sub group? We just don’t know.
But what we know is that the “proto Celtic” dictionary as well as the living “Celtic” languages contain many Serbian and Slavic words. How is this possible and where and when did the language mix happen? The fact that there are so many same or similar words in proto Celtic and Serbian actually opens more questions than it answers.
By the way, how did they compile the proto Celtic dictionary? Where did they find texts that were written by Celts? If the dictionary was compiled from old texts from current Gaelic countries then it is a proto Gaelic dictionary.

dublin
22-05-12, 17:10
Zanipolo

Gaelic word for “big” is Mór. (Pronounced as the English word more)
Gaelic word for “river” is Abhainn . (Pronounced “awon” similar to the English word award)
In Serbia there is a river Morava.
Morava = mor + ava = Mór Abhainn = big river Morava is the biggest river in the territory which was once inhabited by Tribali.
Today in eastern Serbia Vlasi (Vlahi) say “mare” for big. Celts called themselves “Valahi”…
In Ireland there is a river named The Avonmore River (Irish: Abhainn Mór, meaning "big river")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Avonmore
It is interesting that Mór Abhainn is grammatically incorrect in modern Gaelic languages. It should be Abhainn Mór. But there is an example of the same grammatical incorrectness in Ireland.
Dublin = dub linn = dubh linn = deep pool. In modern Irish the word dubh means black, but in proto Celtic it means deep. The Serbian word for deep is dubok. Word for depth is dubina. Dublin was the name of a Viking settlement, and is grammatically incorrect in Irish, the correct being linn dubh.
All of this is very interesting.

Endri
22-05-12, 18:57
Zanipolo

Gaelic word for “big” is Mór. (Pronounced as the English word more)
Gaelic word for “big” is Abhainn . (Pronounced “awon” similar to the English word award)
In Serbia there is a river Morava.
Morava = mor + ava = Mór Abhainn = big river Morava is the biggest river in the territory which was once inhabited by Tribali.
Today in eastern Serbia Vlasi (Vlahi) say “mare” for big. Celts called themselves “Valahi”…
In Ireland there is a river named The Avonmore River (Irish: Abhainn Mór, meaning "big river")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Avonmore
It is interesting that Mór Abhainn is grammatically incorrect in modern Gaelic languages. It should be Abhainn Mór. But there is an example of the same grammatical incorrectness in Ireland.
Dublin = dub linn = dubh linn = deep pool. In modern Irish the word dubh means black, but in proto Celtic it means deep. The Serbian word for deep is dubok. Word for depth is dubina. Dublin was the name of a Viking settlement, and is grammatically incorrect in Irish, the correct being linn dubh.
All of this is very interesting.


1) A river etymology doesn't prove anything rather than Morava got named by the Celts during their invasion in the Balkans since river, mountain names tend to stick and stay relatively unchanged during time...

2) Take those Gaelic/Celtic words, from the time period it's being discussed, apply the Serbian language rules, will you end up with the modern words? I doubt...

It's like for example that: In albanian the name of the greek godes Aphrodite is Afërdita. "Afër" means close/near and "dita" means "day" thus Aphrodite comes from Albanian meaning "near day" or smth like that???? I doubt...

Or Hera from Albanian "era" meaning "wind" and a bunch more of false etymologies...

As i said only cause words seems similar does not mean that those words are related, unless you can either prove one is a loan of the other word or they both come from the same root...

3) Those "Vlahi" you're saying are probably the Vlach community in Serbia. They speak a Romance language whose closest language is Romanian. "Mare" in this case is probably from Latin "magna" which ultimately comes from PIE magh* or smth like that.

Compare it to Albanian "i/e madh",Greek "mega", Irish "mor" and Armenian "mets" further more, modern day Romanian word for big is "mare"...

PS: i/e in Albanian are adjective preposition, placed in-front of a certain type of Albanian adjectives, so is unrelated to the word (just in case you might have said that they don't look the same lol)

MOESAN
22-05-12, 23:32
i tend to agree, even in Italy today ( and the past) an example would be
Mare in Italian means the Sea
Mare in venetian means Mother
same nation , same word , different meaning. Since venetian is older then italian , then one can only speculate that Mare for sea in italian was a combination of venetian Mar and french Mer. .......A typical way of Italian to express itself as being different.

I hope you are making a joke here concerning 'mare' , 'mer', mar' (& 'madre') ?!?

dublin
22-05-12, 23:51
endri what is your problem?


1) A river etymology doesn't prove anything rather than Morava got named by the Celts during their invasion in the Balkans since river, mountain names tend to stick and stay relatively unchanged during time...



yes i believe that this is Celtic name. not Gaelic. who celts are is the main question here.


2) Take those Gaelic/Celtic words, from the time period it's being discussed, apply the Serbian language rules, will you end up with the modern words? I doubt...


dubh - dubok. place names in Serbia with dubok root: dubocica, dubica, dubrava...

dublin
22-05-12, 23:58
but this is the one i was looking for:

The proof that there is a link between north Africa and the Gaelic countries.


Scotland's DNA also found that more than 1% of all Scotsmen are direct descendants of the Berber and Tuareg tribesmen of the Sahara, a lineage which is around 5600 years old.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17740638

i could bet that the percentage in ireland is even greater. in ireland blacks are caled "blue people" which is the name for tuaregs.

and this:




origin of the Gaels - who by conquering and integrating with Pictish northern tribes created the Kingdom of Alba - has been debated by historians for centuries. The earliest historical source comes from around the 10th Century and relates that the Gaels came from Ireland in about 500 AD, under King Fergus Mor.
However, more recently archaeologists have suggested the Gaels had lived in Argyll for centuries before Fergus Mor's invasion.
The study also suggested an east-west genetic divide seen in England and attributed to Anglo-Saxons and Danes was evident in the north of Scotland.
This was noted in places far from Anglo-Saxon and Danish settlements, indicating that this division was older and may have arisen in the Bronze Age through trading networks across the North Sea.




http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/highlands_and_islands/7976510.stm


Britan was a mixing pot between Gaels and Gauls, Vends, Germans (Celts???).

Endri
23-05-12, 00:12
endri what is your problem?

I beg your pardon but why should i have a problem?


dubh - dubok. place names in Serbia with dubok root: dubocica, dubica, dubrava...

Ok, since you didn't understand it, I'm gonna break it into "smaller" pieces for you...

Dubh and Dubok are the modern day form of the words or the "old"?

MOESAN
23-05-12, 00:27
Zanipolo

Gaelic word for “big” is Mór. (Pronounced as the English word more)
Gaelic word for “river” is Abhainn . (Pronounced “awon” similar to the English word award)
In Serbia there is a river Morava.
Morava = mor + ava = Mór Abhainn = big river Morava is the biggest river in the territory which was once inhabited by Tribali.
Today in eastern Serbia Vlasi (Vlahi) say “mare” for big. Celts called themselves “Valahi”…
In Ireland there is a river named The Avonmore River (Irish: Abhainn Mór, meaning "big river")
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/River_Avonmore
It is interesting that Mór Abhainn is grammatically incorrect in modern Gaelic languages. It should be Abhainn Mór. But there is an example of the same grammatical incorrectness in Ireland.
Dublin = dub linn = dubh linn = deep pool. In modern Irish the word dubh means black, but in proto Celtic it means deep. The Serbian word for deep is dubok. Word for depth is dubina. Dublin was the name of a Viking settlement, and is grammatically incorrect in Irish, the correct being linn dubh.
All of this is very interesting.

I'm very interested in etymology and play to find some cognates in different languages dictionaries - but do leave the "professionals" doing their job: it stays some scientists or scholars that can learn us somethings because they began before us and took advantage of more than a century of hard labour from ancient scientists, even of their mistakes... amateur etymology runs very often into the wall - WITHOUT OFFENSE TO ANYBODY (I'm an amateur too)
to come back to the thread, and after reading B.SERGENT (about the I-Eans) I believe that it is not surprising seeing cognate I-E words in celtic and serbian languages, : 1) in fact these serbian words are often all-slavic words - 2) according to a recently dominent stream among linguists it seams that proto-Celtic-italic keep long time enough in contact in eastern Europe with future çatem groups (not especially Slavs but some protos-X : Phrygians, Thracians, Illyrians, proto-Albanians) - surely they could keep some common vocabulary with South I-Eans ...
concerning Y-HGs I consider Y-I2a1b as a pre-Neolithic pre-I-E group but placed very well to firstable take advantage of agriculture and to mix after that with steppes I-Eans - as mentioned by other "posters" here this HG (and some cousin ones even if less numerous) seams having occupied lands between Trans-Sylvania, Carpathes, Galicia, Moldavia, Western Ukraina since a long time: and is proximity (and demic mixture) with previous "pure" Neolithic cultures seams proved by the gradiant in this large area of autosomal genes qualified as "mediterranean" & "west-asian" -
except for the 'corded' people passed by North, I think that all the future western I-E speaking "teachers" was obliged to pass through one of these regions (and that B.B.s evolved firstable in these regions before "osmosing" some of their cultural traits with those of some Steppes tribes) -
little detour not too far from the thread:
perhaps it's this I2a1b element that "choosed" (hazard and contraints) the 'centum' versant of I-E, the others turning in a 'çatem' one??? Among Balts, first Slavs, Indo-Iranians, R1a is dominent, I2a1 is less present or absent - Among Southern Slavs (slavized for a big part) Y-I2a1 is dominent (more than a source I think) and the palatizing of these southern slavic languages seams less strong than in Western or Eastern slavic languages, AS IF learned but not natural to them: I think to the tendency to produce sounds near the 'jod' /j/) - a genetic element or a population with its own genetics and its own habits can change the language learned from foreign elites or learned by fusion of populations -

Dalmat
23-05-12, 03:13
dubh - dubok. place names in Serbia with dubok root: dubocica, dubica, dubrava...


Name is much more present in Croatia, In Serbia there is only 1 i think.

Dub= old word for Oak

Dubrava, Dubrovnik...etc usually designates a place near oak wood ;)

zanipolo
23-05-12, 08:54
I hope you are making a joke here concerning 'mare' , 'mer', mar' (& 'madre') ?!?

what do you mean joke.

check page 172 of the link, it has both words.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Jz2V1LL2u1YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=venetian+language+pizzati&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x4e8T4eAO-_MmAXH5MFO&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mare&f=false

I get the feeling you believe every propoganda that nations tell you about languages.

dublin
23-05-12, 10:46
Endri
Thanks for being so considerate and helping me understand the depths of your wisdom.


Dubh and Dubok are the modern day form of the words or the "old"?

Both these words are very old

moesan


I'm very interested in etymology and play to find some cognates in different languages dictionaries - but do leave the "professionals" doing their job: it stays some scientists or scholars that can learn us somethings because they began before us and took advantage of more than a century of hard labour from ancient scientists, even of their mistakes... amateur etymology runs very often into the wall - WITHOUT OFFENSE TO ANYBODY (I'm an amateur too).
to come back to the thread, and after reading B.SERGENT (about the I-Eans) I believe that it is not surprising seeing cognate I-E words in celtic and serbian languages, : 1) in fact these serbian words are often all-slavic words - 2) according to a recently dominent stream among linguists it seams that proto-Celtic-italic keep long time enough in contact in eastern Europe with future çatem groups (not especially Slavs but some protos-X : Phrygians, Thracians, Illyrians, proto-Albanians) - surely they could keep some common vocabulary with South I-Eans ...


How do you know that I am an amateur? You know nothing about me and am just wandering is it the weakness of my argument that made you conclude that? Or are you resorting to “you have no idea what you are talking about because you are an amateur” argument, because you don’t like what I am saying? Maybe it is because what I am saying is shaking the pedestal of the “Celts”?
And I have to say I love how first you tell me to stop meddling into etymology because I am an amateur, then you say that you are an amateur, and then you proceed by giving me a lecture on etymology?!?

Dalmat


Name is much more present in Croatia, In Serbia there is only 1 i think.
Dub= old word for Oak
Dubrava, Dubrovnik...etc usually designates a place near oak wood ;)


No problem with that. When I talk about Serbian, I mean south Slavic languages. Dub does mean oak but considering that Dublin is the name of a Viking settlement given to it by Vikings and not the Gaels, I believe that they wanted to denote a deep pool for mooring ships and not the oak forest.

Sile
23-05-12, 12:18
funny how you mentioned a city called Dubrovnik when this name only appeared in 1918 , it was originally called Ragusa. Dubrovnik must have been its slang name in the middle ages

LeBrok
23-05-12, 16:24
Endri
Thanks for being so considerate and helping me understand the depths of your wisdom.



Both these words are very old

moesan

[/I]

How do you know that I am an amateur? You know nothing about me and am just wandering is it the weakness of my argument that made you conclude that? Or are you resorting to “you have no idea what you are talking about because you are an amateur” argument, because you don’t like what I am saying? Maybe it is because what I am saying is shaking the pedestal of the “Celts”?
And I have to say I love how first you tell me to stop meddling into etymology because I am an amateur, then you say that you are an amateur, and then you proceed by giving me a lecture on etymology?!?



Don't get too defensive Dublin, it's not about you, it's about what you wrote. To be more credible, try using sound laws of said languages to reconstruct proto/root words, the way professionals do. So far you have only similar sounding words, of different meaning, in different languages, that's all. And yes, that's the weakness of your argument.

sparkey
23-05-12, 17:50
but this is the one i was looking for:

The proof that there is a link between north Africa and the Gaelic countries.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-17740638

1% of some unspecified lineage in Scotland (I presume E1b-M81?) that could have entered Europe as early as 5600 years ago (per this link) is proof of a "link" between North Africa and Gaelic countries? It's a pretty weak one.


i could bet that the percentage in ireland is even greater. in ireland blacks are caled "blue people" which is the name for tuaregs.

Assuming I'm right that they're talking about E1b-M81, then Ireland also has frequencies of ~1%.


Britan was a mixing pot between Gaels and Gauls, Vends, Germans (Celts???).

Where do you get "Vends" from? Anyway, I imagine Britain as having 8 main influxes:
(1) pre-Celtic peoples (identifiable by some forms of Y-DNA I2, like I2a2a1 and I2a1a*-Gen)
(2) proto-Gaels (identifiable mainly by R1b-L21, as most British R1b-L21 probably traces back to them... their descendants are a clear majority on the Celtic fringe)
(3) Halstatt/La Tene and Halstatt/La Tene-influenced Celts (identifiable by R1b-U152, I2a2b, and others)
(4) Belgae (difficult to distinguish from others)
(5) Romans and their troops (probably brought a lot of the J2, E1b, and R1b-U152 in Britain)
(6) Anglo-Saxons (identifiable by R1b-U106, I1-Z58, I2a2a-Cont, and others.. reaches a majority in places like East Anglia)
(7) North Germanic peoples (identifiable by I1-L22, and brought much of the R1a and some of the R1b-U106 in Britain)
(8) Normans (difficult to distinguish from others)

dublin
23-05-12, 17:56
Lebrok
I don’t see any weakness in my arguments. Which similar sounding words with different meaning did I use? Please explain where my arguments were weak and why. I am always willing to learn.
And how about this example:


The modern English word druid derives from the Latin druides (pronounced [druˈides] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:IPA_for_Latin)), which itself was considered by ancient Roman writers to come from the native Celtic Gaulish word for these figures.[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-Piggott_1968_Page_89-8)[10] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-9)[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-Wiel-10) Other Roman texts also employ the form druidae, while the same term was used by Greek ethnographers (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_ethnographers) as δρυΐδης (druidēs).[12] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-11)[13] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-12) Although no extant Romano-Celtic inscription is known to contain the form,[9] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-Piggott_1968_Page_89-8) the word is cognate with the later insular Celtic words, Old Irish (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_Irish) druí ("druid, sorcerer") and early Welsh dryw ("seer").[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-Wiel-10) Based on all available forms, the hypothetical proto-Celtic word may then be reconstructed as *dru-wid-s (pl. *druwides) meaning "oak-knower". The two elements go back to the Proto-Indo-European (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proto-Indo-European_language) roots *deru-[14] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-13) and *weid- "to see".[15] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-14) The sense of "oak-knower" (or "oak-seer") is confirmed by Pliny the Elder (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pliny_the_Elder),[11] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-Wiel-10) who in his Natural History etymologised the term as containing the Greek noun δρύς (drus), "oak-tree"[16] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-15) and the Greek suffix -ιδης (-idēs).[17] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid#cite_note-16) The modern Irish word for Oak is Dara, as it derives to anglicised placenames like Derry, and Kildare (literally the "church of oak").


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Druid

Original proto “celtic” word is drvid or dervovid.
Drv – dervo – means tree in Serbian.
in Serbian Vid – means sight, videti means to see, predvideti means to foresee.
But also
in Serbian Veda – means a story, vedati, pripovedati means to tell a story, propovedati means to preach.
And also
in Serbian vidati means to cure to treat ill person, heal, vidar is a healer.
Seer, preacher, healer – all attributes of a shaman.
So drvid = drv – vid = tree shaman – tree worship priest,
The only translation that makes sense does not come from Gaelic languages, but from IE languages. You would expect that if this was a Gaelic religious title that the word would have deep meaning in Gaelic languages, but it doesn’t. This is what Irish Gaelic dictionary has to say about meaning of the word druid:




druid (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=druid) le (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=le) = draw (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=draw) near (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=near)
dún (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=d%C3%BAn), druid (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=druid) = close (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=close) down (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=down)(vt, vi)
druid (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=druid), dún (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=d%C3%BAn) = shut (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=shut) down (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=down)(vt, vi)
druidim (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=druidim) amach (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=amach) ó (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=%C3%B3) = to (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=to) edge (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=edge) away (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=away) from (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=from)
druidim (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=druidim) de (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=de) bhlosc (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=bhlosc) or (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=or) de (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=de) phreab (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=phreab) = to (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=to) snap (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=snap) shut (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=shut)
6 (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=6) lá (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=l%C3%A1) as (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=as) a (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=a) chéile (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=ch%C3%A9ile), sé (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=s%C3%A9) lá (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=l%C3%A1) druidte (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=druidte) = 6 (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=6) days (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=days) running (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=running)
an (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=an) ndruidfeá (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=ndruidfe%C3%A1) an (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=an) doras (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=doras), le (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=le) do (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=do) thoil (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=thoil) = would (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=would) you (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=you) close (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=close) the (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=the) door (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=door) please (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=please)?
tarraing (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=tarraing) or (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=or) druid (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=druid) isteach (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=isteach) i (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=i) leataobh (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=leataobh) = pull (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=pull) over (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=english&toLanguage=irish&word=over)(vi)(AUT (http://www.irishdictionary.ie/dictionary?language=irish&toLanguage=english&word=AUT))



One would expect something like holy man, seer, tree man or priest, something that has anything to do with “Celtic” religion. How is this possible? It is possible because druids were not Gaelic holy men, they were Celtic holy men. And Celts were not Gaels. But who were Celts then I wander??? And where did they come from?

Endri
23-05-12, 18:04
Both these words are very old


Ok, you still don't get it...I'm not asking you how old this words are but rather if these forms "duboh" and "dubok" are the modern form of these words or rather the old form...

If they are the "Old" form of the words, whats their modern form and if they are the modern form whats their old form?

And since I don't speak any slavic language (unfortunately) i checked on Google Translate and it appears that "dub" is present in ALL slavic languages and in ALL means Oak, while on South-West Slavic is an old word for "oak", in all the rest, including Macedonian and Bulgarian is the main word for "oak", and further more it seems that rather being a loan word from Celtic to Slavic or vice-versa is a PIE word in the Slavic languages.

Compare Slavic "dub", Welsh "derw", Irish "dair" and Greek "drys". All from PIE *deru, if I'm not mistaken. Taranis could be more of help here...

So to conclude, only cause 2 words seem similar at first, or cause their meaning is sorta the same, or that you give a similar meaning does not necessarily mean anything, unless you can prove it by the respective language sound law, which you can't and until you do this is just a theory and crazy one, like those on YouTube...


Endri
Thanks for being so considerate and helping me understand the depths of your wisdom.

It's a pleasure. I'm highly honored to help you at getting a better understanding on linguistic, as much as I can help and share with your person my immense knowledge and wisdom. I'm delighted to have helped you expand your knowledge...

dublin
23-05-12, 18:20
sparkey

The Irish geneticists expect that the percentage of the north African genes in Ireland will be a lot greater. I suppose we can only wait and see.
As for wends
Word Viking or vyking was a Scandinavian word originally used to describe Wendish (Slavic) pirates from southern shores of the Baltic and later both Wends and Danes. A lot of Danes are Converted Wends. There are a lot of original documents that talk about these conversions. The Wendish – Slavic navy has controlled the eastern Baltic since at least the fifth century. There are also recorded raids of the Norse settlements by the Wendish Vikings, which shows that they were venturing out of the Baltic and into the Atlantic.

http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/Indruszewski-MA1996.pdf

The “Viking” was not used as a term to describe the people from the north who settled in Britain and Ireland until very recently. Neither was the word “Norse” used. In England they called them Danes. In Ireland they called them Gall.

is Dublin the same type of place name like Berlin, Lublin and other north Slavic place name? Dublin - deep place.

dublin
23-05-12, 21:30
endri

Thank you very much. You have opened my eyes, and i am not being sarcastic. Dub does mean deep but in case of Dublin, i think you are right. it probably was the oak place, place with many dubs oaks. Oak, apart from being the sacred tree of both "Celts" and Slavs, (but not the Gaels, they had Holly) was also the main building material for Wendish ships, as opposed to Norse ships which which were mostly built of pine. From that point of view Ireland was a very important as it was in the early medieval time covered in old oak forests. Dublin is in old Irish pronounced dubljin. dubljin in Serbian is an adjective meaning full of oaks. Maybe this is why Gaels called first "Vikings" dubh gall. Irish historians have no explanation for this name by the way.
In Serbia there are many place names built in the same way: Vrčin, Beljin, Kovin, Vidin...
Current Irish interpretation is just transliteration.

MOESAN
23-05-12, 22:04
what do you mean joke.

check page 172 of the link, it has both words.
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=Jz2V1LL2u1YC&printsec=frontcover&dq=venetian+language+pizzati&hl=en&sa=X&ei=x4e8T4eAO-_MmAXH5MFO&ved=0CDoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=mare&f=false

I get the feeling you believe every propoganda that nations tell you about languages.

Zanipolo, I rewrite here your previous post:

i tend to agree, even in Italy today ( and the past) an example would be
Mare in Italian means the Sea
Mare in venetian means Mother
same nation , same word , different meaning. Since venetian is older then italian , then one can only speculate that Mare for sea in italian was a combination of venetian Mar and french Mer. .......A typical way of Italian to express itself as being different.

Sorry if I maid a mistake but I was thinking you was doing a link concerning meaning between the venetian 'mare' and the italian (toscan,) 'mare' and that you thought the italian 'mare '("sea") was a kind of mixture between french and other italic languages -
french 'mer', venetian 'mar' (according to you), italian 'mare' = "sea"
french 'mère', venetian 'mare', italian 'madre' (< 'mater') = "mother" (I add catalan has 'mare' too for "mother") - nothing in common for the meaning
- maybe I didn't understand too well your way of thinking? Don't be offensed, everyone here supports his own view in a first stage, it is normal...
s

MOESAN
23-05-12, 22:34
sparkey

[---/As for wends
Word Viking or vyking was a Scandinavian word originally used to describe Wendish (Slavic) pirates from southern shores of the Baltic and later both Wends and Danes. A lot of Danes are Converted Wends. There are a lot of original documents that talk about these conversions. The Wendish – Slavic navy has controlled the eastern Baltic since at least the fifth century. There are also recorded raids of the Norse settlements by the Wendish Vikings, which shows that they were venturing out of the Baltic and into the Atlantic.

http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/Indruszewski-MA1996.pdf

The “Viking” was not used as a term to describe the people from the north who settled in Britain and Ireland until very recently. Neither was the word “Norse” used. In England they called them Danes. In Ireland they called them Gall.

is Dublin the same type of place name like Berlin, Lublin and other north Slavic place name? Dublin - deep place.

I 'll answer your post to me after -
about this one, I red that 'viking' was a word concerning the pirate activity, without any ethnic signification, neither wend nor other...
concerning 'Wends' becoming 'Danes', it could explain the very too big proportion of Y-R1a compared to Y-I1 in some of the viking settlements of Brittain (Scotland, Lancahire) and Ireland, but here we need a deeper survey about subclades - surely not in everypart of the viking world, nevertheless - it's a pity Normandy is so far so poorly studied -

zanipolo
23-05-12, 23:03
Zanipolo, I rewrite here your previous post:

i tend to agree, even in Italy today ( and the past) an example would be
Mare in Italian means the Sea
Mare in venetian means Mother
same nation , same word , different meaning. Since venetian is older then italian , then one can only speculate that Mare for sea in italian was a combination of venetian Mar and french Mer. .......A typical way of Italian to express itself as being different.

Sorry if I maid a mistake but I was thinking you was doing a link concerning meaning between the venetian 'mare' and the italian (toscan,) 'mare' and that you thought the italian 'mare '("sea") was a kind of mixture between french and other italic languages -
french 'mer', venetian 'mar' (according to you), italian 'mare' = "sea"
french 'mère', venetian 'mare', italian 'madre' (< 'mater') = "mother" (I add catalan has 'mare' too for "mother") - nothing in common for the meaning
- maybe I didn't understand too well your way of thinking? Don't be offensed, everyone here supports his own view in a first stage, it is normal...
s

i was referring to Dante ( who created Italian ) in that in the late middle ages he quote the venetian word Mar with L'oc ( southern french) word Mer to create this new meaning of sea for a new identity - italian
Because Italian was never created initially by the commune ( tribal community) but by 1 man, solely for the purpose of the merchants and artisans

zanipolo
23-05-12, 23:26
the initial term of wend ( wendish ) only referred to baltic and finnic people, coastal people who traded by the sea.

In the middle ages chronociles
actual historic people called Wends or Vends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends) living as far as northern Latvia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia) (east of the Baltic Sea) around the city of Wenden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cēsis). Henry of Livonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_of_Livonia) (Henricus de Lettis) in his 13th-century Latin chronicle described a tribe called the Vindi.

It has already been noted that the slavs had no knowledge or use of the sea at the time of the vikings. The closeset the slavs got to the sea was when Poland captured Gradansk from the teutonic knights in the 13th century.

But norse did capture and migrate some slavic people from Rus to scandinavia as slaves because the vikings ruled russia at that time.

Wends were under increasing pressure from Germans (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany), Danes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denmark) and Poles (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poles). The Poles invaded Pomerania several times. The Danes often raided the Baltic shores (and, in turn, were often raided by the Wends).

all of the above are raiding baltic people even the slavic Poles riaded wends.

To finalise both the norwegian and danish royal houses claimed a title of kings of the Wends, but that was due to claims on lands between Mecklenburg to Estonia

MOESAN
23-05-12, 23:39
moesan

[/I]

How do you know that I am an amateur? You know nothing about me and am just wandering is it the weakness of my argument that made you conclude that? Or are you resorting to “you have no idea what you are talking about because you are an amateur” argument, because you don’t like what I am saying? Maybe it is because what I am saying is shaking the pedestal of the “Celts”?
And I have to say I love how first you tell me to stop meddling into etymology because I am an amateur, then you say that you are an amateur, and then you proceed by giving me a lecture on etymology?!?

hopala, poor weather!
- when I wrote about amateur's etymology I was not thinking specially to you but expressing some prudence because we have had yet the occasion to read some funny etymologies on this forum - but precisely for "tar ais" (irish gaelic) and the slavic places of Tarish I confess I have big big doubts about any kind of link, or yet I've understood nothing? - and the fact I don't agree with somebody about something is not depending of the diploms he could have -
a detail: the order of terms in a word has changed during history of some I-E languages (it's the case of the celtic ones): so, 'mor-aban' could have existed in irish before the modern 'abhainn m(h)or' (sorry, I'm not sure for the mutation of 'mor') -
and you seams putting a big difference between gaelic and celtic but they are linked in past - ("celtic" in linguisitic don't signify the language of the Celts of Gaul but all the akin languages shares by Goidels, Brittons, Gauls, Galates, Celt-iberes...
and why are you thinking (just for reasonment as I have no idea about the previous Gaels religion) that a kind of "tree(oak) priest" could not be gaelic too: modern irish 'druid' has other meanings, coming from other roots but you have 'draoî' for "druide" and 'dara', 'dair', 'darach' for "oak" ...?
YOu are working on two fronts: slavic or baltic Wends on one hand, and celtic-serbian linkage on an other, and every sort of comparison or not too evident link seams enough for you to construct what??? among your arguments, some are good, why trying to accumulate unsteady speculations with them? Just my point of view
ôiche mhaith

LeBrok
24-05-12, 03:59
the initial term of wend ( wendish ) only referred to baltic and finnic people, coastal people who traded by the sea.

In the middle ages chronociles
actual historic people called Wends or Vends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vends) living as far as northern Latvia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latvia) (east of the Baltic Sea) around the city of Wenden (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cēsis). Henry of Livonia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_of_Livonia) (Henricus de Lettis) in his 13th-century Latin chronicle described a tribe called the Vindi.


If I'm not mistaken Wend, Welsh, is a old germanic word to describe a stranger, therefore none germanic peoples. It was used for Balts, Slavs and Celts in equal way in antiquity by germanic tribes. Probably english word (to) Wander is of germanic origin and means to walk around, suitable to describe a stranger. After germanic expansion in middle ages to the west, there were no strangers left there to talk about. The name was left exclusively for Slavs, the closest and only neighbor to the east.



It has already been noted that the slavs had no knowledge or use of the sea at the time of the vikings. The closest the slavs got to the sea was when Poland captured Gradansk from the teutonic knights in the 13th century.


This is not correct. By 6th century Slavs conquered all the Baltic coast to the Denmark. They finally saw the Baltic Sea with there own eyes. What I'm not sure is how many indigenous people were left in coastal towns and continued there sea faring traditions. There are German sources to attest for the Slavic expansion in this area, because first written polish history starts at end of 9th century.
Even though Slavs didn't have much contact with a sea, the word More (sea) is attested in all slavic languages. Looks like it is IE, as we have a close relatives in Latin and Celtic as Mare or Mor.

If it comes to sea faring Slavs, there is not much info, nor legends, nor traditions. It means that Slavs were not sea faring people at all, except for some sea fishing. The biggest achievement of slavic middle ages sailing was in city Wolin, were they mixed with Scandinavians and became part of Vikings. All of the Baltic coast Slavs conquered were of Germanic or Baltic tribes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolin

LeBrok
24-05-12, 06:39
endri

Thank you very much. You have opened my eyes, and i am not being sarcastic. Dub does mean deep but in case of Dublin, i think you are right. it probably was the oak place, place with many dubs oaks. Oak, apart from being the sacred tree of both "Celts" and Slavs, (but not the Gaels, they had Holly) was also the main building material for Wendish ships, as opposed to Norse ships which which were mostly built of pine. From that point of view Ireland was a very important as it was in the early medieval time covered in old oak forests. Dublin is in old Irish pronounced dubljin. dubljin in Serbian is an adjective meaning full of oaks. Maybe this is why Gaels called first "Vikings" dubh gall. Irish historians have no explanation for this name by the way.
In Serbia there are many place names built in the same way: Vrčin, Beljin, Kovin, Vidin...
Current Irish interpretation is just transliteration.

And when, do you recon, the slavic invasion of Ireland might have happened? By the sea by Slavic Vikings, between 600 to 900 CE?
Do you think all the Celts of Ireland were of Slavic origin?
Is celtic-Irish language Centum or Satem?

And if somehow the Slavic Vikings came and settled couple of places (Dublin and Ballina) it was probably it. It can't explain the language and cultural shift the main celtic invasion caused.

How much Slavic M458 or Pomeranian Z280 is in Irland?

If you can connect more dots, than just Dublin name and hypothetical Slavic Vikings visiting Ireland, then maybe you're up to something.

dublin
24-05-12, 10:39
moesan

At the height of Slavic power in the Baltic they controlled a big parts of Denmark like Falster and lolland.


Michael Crichton, in Eaters of the Dead, cites the earliest known eyewitness account of Viking life and society in the Ibn Fadlan Manuscript. “For the space of two days, we sailed among many islands that are called the land of Dans, coming finally to a region of marsh with a crisscross of narrow rivers that pour onto the sea. These rivers have no names themselves but area each one called “wyk” and the peoples of the narrow rivers are called “wykings,” which means the Northmen warriors who sail their ships up the rivers and attack settlements in such fashion.”

These “region of marsh with a crisscross of narrow rivers” is Wendland, the land of Slavic Wykings.

There is a huge new body of archaeological evidence showing than in the early medieval time there were powerful Slavic states with highly developed maritime activity (ship building, fishing, warfare, trade) in the south Baltic region.

dublin
24-05-12, 10:45
Zanipolo

Please read http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/...ski-MA1996.pdf (http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/Indruszewski-MA1996.pdf) this is based on archeological finds up to late nineties. There are lots and lots of even newer finds which prove that the whole of southern Baltic as well as eastern Germany was a Slavic land in the early medieval time. I will post links to latest finds when I have time.
By the way “wend” is still term used for Slavs in Germany.

zanipolo
24-05-12, 11:16
Zanipolo

Please read http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/...ski-MA1996.pdf (http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/Indruszewski-MA1996.pdf) this is based on archeological finds up to late nineties. There are lots and lots of even newer finds which prove that the whole of southern Baltic as well as eastern Germany was a Slavic land in the early medieval time. I will post links to latest finds when I have time.
By the way “wend” is still term used for Slavs in Germany.

thank you, I will read it in time

can you read this which IIRC is from the late ninties from Vienna university

http://yalepress.yale.edu/yupbooks/pdf/0300058462.pdf

I think you are "hiding" the baltic people heritage. The teutonic knights was sent to pomerania and east of there to convert the pagan baltic people ( prussians, aestii, ests, lats, livs etc etc ) into christianity because the catholic king of Poland could not do it.
You seem to be forgetting about these people.

I have never suppored a linguistics terminology as being a genetic sign of people because it distorts history, it's like saying that all the british in england who spoke latin where Romans, its plain silly.

dublin
24-05-12, 12:12
Moesan


…for "tar ais" (irish gaelic) and the slavic places of Tarish I confess I have big big doubts about any kind of link, or yet I've understood nothing? …

I have been living in Ireland for last 17 years. My wife is Irish and my son learns Irish in school. I am surrounded with Irish language and culture all the time. I hear and speak (a bit) of their language and know how it is used. I have many native Irish speaker friends that I can consult. I also lived in Serbia, and understand the language and its nuances. I actually went to school in Zeleznik, which has a part called “taraish”. Taraish is located beyond the end of the village. Zeleznik is long and narrow settlement located on a crest of a long and narrow wave like hill like all the other villages in this area. My parents had a summer house in a village called Vranic, which also has a part called “taraish”. Taraish is located beyond the end of the village. Vranic is long and narrow settlement located on a crest of a long and narrow wave like hill. I asked the villagers in both villages and they claim that these areas have been called taraish for as long as anyone can remember. Taraish has no meaning in modern Serbian. In Ireland tar ais is always pronounced together as taraish and means beyond, after the end. I made this connection when I went to visit my parents in their summer house with my wife. She heard us talking about taraish and asked what we were talking about. When we told her that we were talking about the area at the far end of the village, she told me that this is how you would say it in Irish as well. You cannot get this kind of insights from books but from real life and real people actually using the language.

dublin
24-05-12, 12:27
zanipolo


I think you are "hiding" the baltic people heritage. The teutonic knights was sent to pomerania and east of there to convert the pagan baltic people ( prussians, aestii, ests, lats, livs etc etc ) into christianity because the catholic king of Poland could not do it.
You seem to be forgetting about these people.

The new archeological data I am talking about is from Germany. So “I” am not hiding anything. Also I am talking about early medieval period (5 century-13 century) and you are talking about late medieval time.


I have never suppored a linguistics terminology as being a genetic sign of people because it distorts history, it's like saying that all the british in england who spoke latin where Romans, its plain silly.

I am not talking about language. I am talking about discoveries of shipwrecks, cities, temples, burials…


In the Middle Ages (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_Ages) the term "Wends" often referred to Western Slavs

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends



Sorbs (Upper Sorbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Upper_Sorbian_language): Serbja; Lower Sorbian (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lower_Sorbian_language): Serby also known as Wends (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wends), Lusatian Sorbs or Lusatian Serbs) are a Western (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Slavs) Slavic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavic_peoples) people of Central Europe (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Central_Europe) living predominantly in Lusatia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lusatia), a region on the territory of Germany (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germany) and Poland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poland). In Germany they live in the states of Brandenburg and Saxony.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs


have a read of this as well:
http://www.glennjlea.ca/techwriting/berlin-swamp-slavic-or-bear-german/

dublin
24-05-12, 16:12
Moesan


a detail: the order of terms in a word has changed during history of some I-E languages (it's the case of the celtic ones): so, 'mor-aban' could have existed in irish before the modern 'abhainn m(h)or' (sorry, I'm not sure for the mutation of 'mor') -

from proto “Celtic” dictionary:

river - abon, abonā, ambu, arno, *Awo-, *Awā, sindā, *srutu

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/EnglishProtoCelticWordList.pdf (http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/EnglishProtoCelticWordList.pdf)

so Morava = more + awa (pronounced morawa) = big river
or Dunav = Dun + awo, awa (pronounced dunawa, dunawo) = fortress river or border. By the way in medieval Serbian epic poetry Dunav is written and pronounced “dunavo” = dun + awo. Quite interesting...

in Serbia there are other rivers that end in ava: tamnava, resava, nishava, mlava, sava... all, I believe, Celtic names but not Gaelic.

Yetos
24-05-12, 17:12
endri

Thank you very much. You have opened my eyes, and i am not being sarcastic. Dub does mean deep but in case of Dublin, i think you are right. it probably was the oak place, place with many dubs oaks. Oak, apart from being the sacred tree of both "Celts" and Slavs, (but not the Gaels, they had Holly) was also the main building material for Wendish ships, as opposed to Norse ships which which were mostly built of pine. From that point of view Ireland was a very important as it was in the early medieval time covered in old oak forests. Dublin is in old Irish pronounced dubljin. dubljin in Serbian is an adjective meaning full of oaks. Maybe this is why Gaels called first "Vikings" dubh gall. Irish historians have no explanation for this name by the way.
In Serbia there are many place names built in the same way: Vrčin, Beljin, Kovin, Vidin...
Current Irish interpretation is just transliteration.

the oak tree religion is not characteristic only of the one you mention,

search the word Δρυοπες driopes which was a minor Asian tribe that came to Greece and from there went North and West,
the most famous oracle of Graioi (Greels) is named Δωδωνη dodona and oak tree was worshiped there.

the terminology Celt is after Greek authors who named a tribe in Panνoni basin as κελτος keltos

today we consider Haalstat/La Tene as land of known celtic culture and we can guess the time of proto-Celts first spoken, but how certain we are about the place that proto-Celtic were developed?

the existance of Scordiskii in Balkans in areas among Greece today Albania and Fyrom and their devastation to Serbia around Beograd, as also the existance of Serdi, much before the entrance of Galatians, at least for me means either that Celtic imported Balkans before Historical times, either that Celtic is the Driopes culture of minor Asia.

Personally I believe in Anatolian minor Asian Hypothesis, and I believe that proto-Celts were minor-Asians who moved at agricultural revolution of Europe to Central Europe and there they meet Northern Europeans Hunters and create the known culture, I believe that Celtic is culture that created when farmers meet Hunters and is the older culture that kept id until Roman times, while others created Nations in that time,

The Slavic language is considered the Language of Great Moravia which is next to the area that Greeks put Keltos, north of the Pannoni Basin and connected with it via Morava river.
so the main question is how much Celtic spoken there at the time of Cyrill wrote down and teach Slavic language,
Personally I consider Slavic as a major Σκωλοτοι scoloti-sculoti language relative, although the existance of some scattered (scatter = scord-iski) Celtic tribes in Balkans puts a question,
but if the Driopes can be considered as Celtic or proto-Celtic that means that were farmers, and coal producers who came from minor Asia,
remember driopes means oak+hole, it means the ones who can see the future though a hole in oak wood, exactly the same that Druids do.

the known areas that tribes of Driopes and Celts in Balkans are
Driopes
Lands of Myrmidones and Graioi
means Phthia and Epirus
Celts as Scordisci known moves and culture, unknown origin,
area among Albania and Fyrom and Kossyfo
there is a theory that Illyrians were IE Celts + non IE Pelasgians
Belingrad
Sophia
Celts as Galatians known historically their origin
Scanza mountains bulgaria
West Romania

so the possibility that there is Celtic DNA in Serbia is open and possible, as also some linguistic remnants in areas,
also the connection of Celtic with Slavic of Great Moravia since both IE and according authors both starting points (Pannoni Basin , Great Moravia)

But that does not mean Celts=Slavs or opposite
simply if we consider Kurgan Hypothesis that means that Celts entered Europe much before Germans or Slavs so they left remnant words behind them,
if we follow the Anatolian agricultural Hypothesis that means that Celts move all the way from Balkans to west/central EUrope and mixed with local Hunters and create the known Celtic culture, a mix of Mediterenean farmers + central/west Europeans Hunters (not Uraloid)

LeBrok
24-05-12, 18:20
Moesan



from proto “Celtic” dictionary:

river - abon, abonā, ambu, arno, *Awo-, *Awā, sindā, *srutu

http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/EnglishProtoCelticWordList.pdf (http://www.wales.ac.uk/Resources/Documents/Research/CelticLanguages/EnglishProtoCelticWordList.pdf)

so Morava = more + awa (pronounced morawa) = big river
or Dunav = Dun + awo, awa (pronounced dunawa, dunawo) = fortress river or border. By the way in medieval Serbian epic poetry Dunav is written and pronounced “dunavo” = dun + awo. Quite interesting...

in Serbia there are other rivers that end in ava: tamnava, resava, nishava, mlava, sava... all, I believe, Celtic names but not Gaelic.

There is undeniable fact that there were Celts in Balkans, basically in first millennium BC till Roman Empire. Surely you will find some Celtic names still in existence today. On top of it Celtic and Slavic are IE languages and one can find tons of correlations and similarities between namings in Balkans as in Ireland. Having said that it is no proof that Slavs ever invaded Ireland. I'm talking about known Slavs after Slavic expansion of 500CE, when they showed up on a stage of history. Can you link us to these new archaeological finds about Slavic Vikings? It would be a great read for tonight.

Going back to ending "awa". In names it actually happens through Balkans and stretches to the Baltic Sea, as in Orawa or Warszawa (capital of Poland). Awa was linked to Dacians, and is popular ending in Slavic languages too. It belongs strictly to Satem family and not to Celtic Centum. Do you have any Irish name ending with awa?
Also because awa is so popular it is hard to determine what it means in words like Rawa, Orawa, Morawa. Maybe it is about Rawa and not awa?

If it comes to remaining Celts in Balkans after Balkans fell to Roman Empire, they most likely got latinized/romanized as the rest of them in the west as in Spain and France. It probably denotes close relation of Latin and Celtic languages and ease of switching from Celtic to Vulgar Latin. If it is true for the west it was probably true for Balkans too, and all Celts got quickly romanized. We know that all roman speakers in Balkans were/are called Vlahs, Valahs, Vlosi or Roma

LeBrok
24-05-12, 18:45
zanipolo



The new archeological data I am talking about is from Germany. So “I” am not hiding anything. Also I am talking about early medieval period (5 century-13 century) and you are talking about late medieval time.







Yes, Zanipolo is know to easily jump 1000 or 2000 years in his writings.
Zanipolo, here is a map of Slavic expansion by 600CE.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Origins_700.png (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/43/Origins_700.png)


I am not talking about language. I am talking about discoveries of shipwrecks, cities, temples, burials…

Did they find any slavic artifacts near Dublin?

dublin
25-05-12, 13:08
lebrok


Yes, Zanipolo is know to easily jump 1000 or 2000 years in his writings.
Zanipolo, here is a map of Slavic expansion by 600CE.


There is opinion that Wends (Sorbs) lived in the Baltic even before the 5th century. The latest archaeological finds are supporting this.


Did they find any slavic artifacts near Dublin?

I was talking about Baltic. But if you are looking for Slavic finds in Ireland:

http://www.museum.ie/en/list/artefacts.aspx?article=c9f1d3b1-4474-41ef-a04e-09a6a825e141

The official opinion is that it is “Celtic” thing... but that we don’t know what it represents.
Of course in Slavic mythology this is a well known representation of Triglav.
The triglav stonehead found at Glejbjerg near Esbjerg.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~catshaman/23erils2/Image2197.JPG

Triglav / Trihead Thurs three-faced sink unearthed at the Magdalensberg (Šentlenska gora) in Carinthia, Roman period.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~catshaman/23erils2/triglav.JPG


Can you link us to these new archaeological finds about Slavic Vikings?


start with this. detail description of Slavic shipwrecks and comparason with Norse ones. lots more were discovered in last 15 years.

i will post more soon.

http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/...ski-MA1996.pdf (http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/Indruszewski-MA1996.pdf)

zanipolo

Duchy of Courland 18th century.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/2012/0519/1224316323074_2.jpg?ts=1337942620
port Windau (wends were also called Winds) at the mouth or river Venta...
Two other rivers have names that end in ava: Abava, Daugava.
There is also a place Libau which is Germanised version of Ljubice.

zanipolo
25-05-12, 13:31
zanipolo

Duchy of Courland 18th century.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/images/2012/0519/1224316323074_2.jpg?ts=1337942620
port Windau (wends were also called Winds) at the mouth or river Venta...
Two other rivers have names that end in ava: Abava, Daugava.
There is also a place Libau which is Germanised version of Ljubice.


LOL

What the Baltic kars of courland got to do with slavic.

I am afraid you are another who was taught the propaganda book by Olga lukovic-Pjanovic.

I really do not know why you are discounting the fact that serbs are not genetic slavs, but thracians from the triballi tribe.

go read this book below
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=wdEYAQAAMAAJ&q=serb+triballi&dq=serb+triballi&hl=en&sa=X&ei=9W6_T6XjEauhiAehvfS5Cg&ved=0CGMQ6AEwCTgK

or

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triballi

Why pretend you are something your are not?. knowing slavic languages does not make the serbs, slavic , if you believe I am wrong , then I can say you are english because you can read and write English.
Do not be ashamed the serbs are thracians and became slavic only by linguistic knowledge

dublin
25-05-12, 13:34
yetos


today we consider Haalstat/La Tene as land of known celtic culture

This is exactly it. It is only a consideration. There are other ones, like that Celts were the same as Slavs or Serbs, Sorbs, Wends, Venets, Vandals, Galls (some people say that they are of the same family as Slavs but not the same)… we don’t know. But what I believe, and many Iresh historians believe is that Geals are not Celts.


so the possibility that there is Celtic DNA in Serbia is open and possible, as also some linguistic remnants in areas,
also the connection of Celtic with Slavic of Great Moravia since both IE and according authors both starting points (Pannoni Basin , Great Moravia)

But that does not mean Celts=Slavs or opposite


Well it is a possibility. And the one which is more and more plausible due to more and more finds that support it.

Yetos
25-05-12, 15:53
yetos



This is exactly it. It is only a consideration. There are other ones, like that Celts were the same as Slavs or Serbs, Sorbs, Wends, Venets, Vandals, Galls (some people say that they are of the same family as Slavs but not the same)… we don’t know. But what I believe, and many Iresh historians believe is that Geals are not Celts.



Well it is a possibility. And the one which is more and more plausible due to more and more finds that support it.


Well the think that we must check is since when the IE are divided to Celts and Slavic,
what is the difference except DNA? That makes Celts and Slavic 2 different families from common origin IE farmers or hunters?

that we consider starting point of the 'family'.
if you check Celtic especially Galatians seem to exist also in ancient Greek and a remarkable point is a transformation of /qw/ to qq or kk and to pp or ph
the known Q-Celtic and P-Celtic,
Seems like something like that happened in limited linguistic area in Mycenean also,
that brings Celtic also near proto-Greek but does it means that Celtic and Greek are same?

we don't know if Celts had so much influence to the other IE? or the other IE affected so much Celtic

and depends on the Hypothesis we start to search why?

But Celts are IE as Slavs as Germans as Slavs as Greeks so the connection and the parallels are obvious.

the thing I don't understand is what we are searching?
are we searching if Slavs were Celts that grow different?
are we searching if Celts were Slavs that grow different?

I don't understand what we debating here?
Serbs are considered as Slavs that came from North of Moravia
Severi are considered as Slavs that came from Ucraine,
Celts as Scordiscii and other existed in Balkans much before the entrance of South Slavs
But what we are trying to check? if Serbs were Celts?
or if Celts were Serbs?

on the other hand Serbian word for bull is Vik like Northern languages so a parallel with Germanic-Nordic exist also but can we claim that Serbs were Nordic?

To solve the mystery search the vocabulary given with all Slavic languages if exist also in Polish for example, then search the Grim's law on how the words should be, and then search if there loans of older Balcanic celts that still live in modern Serbian as a loan,

I believe that connections among Serbs and Celts exist but does not prove that Serbs were from Celtic family origin, but a pre-Slavic Celtic existance in Balkans and in Pannoni basin and Great Moravia,
the existance of Slavic culture in both Great Moravia and Ucraine links more to Scythian Σκωλοτοι relation than Celtic,

PS
the main problem about Serbia Bosnia Croats is the I2a2-DIN,
The big concentrations in Balkans especially among Serbs Croats Bosnians and Slavic Makedonians in another thread analyzed by Sparkey according Nordvert is probably synchronous (same time event) with Slavic entrance and not with older Thracian, meaning that genetically and historically we might have a clear view of the devastation, while if I2a2-DIN was elder than 2000 years than Nordvert claims we might have a solution considering it as Thracian.

MOESAN
26-05-12, 00:03
Moesan



I have been living in Ireland for last 17 years. My wife is Irish and my son learns Irish in school. I am surrounded with Irish language and culture all the time. I hear and speak (a bit) of their language and know how it is used. I have many native Irish speaker friends that I can consult. I also lived in Serbia, and understand the language and its nuances. I actually went to school in Zeleznik, which has a part called “taraish”. Taraish is located beyond the end of the village. Zeleznik is long and narrow settlement located on a crest of a long and narrow wave like hill like all the other villages in this area. My parents had a summer house in a village called Vranic, which also has a part called “taraish”. Taraish is located beyond the end of the village. Vranic is long and narrow settlement located on a crest of a long and narrow wave like hill. I asked the villagers in both villages and they claim that these areas have been called taraish for as long as anyone can remember. Taraish has no meaning in modern Serbian. In Ireland tar ais is always pronounced together as taraish and means beyond, after the end. I made this connection when I went to visit my parents in their summer house with my wife. She heard us talking about taraish and asked what we were talking about. When we told her that we were talking about the area at the far end of the village, she told me that this is how you would say it in Irish as well. You cannot get this kind of insights from books but from real life and real people actually using the language.

sorry, I don(t doubt about your skills in irish and serbian, but these sort of comparisons can be made a thousands of times without any true connexion - it would be better trying to find a local (slavic or pre-slavic) etymology for this placename wich you know under its MODERN PROUNCIATION IN A SO FAR LAND before trying to put VERY TOO PSEUDO-EVIDENT link with your MODERN IRISH - the fact you speak irish and serbian give you NO scientific luggage and NOT more common sense than everybody else - 'tar ais' is a compound expression -
en example: pronounciation associated to occurrence or similitude:
french 'couché ' (lain) << 'collocat-(um?) I 'm not latinist' << latin 'collocare' (~= to put with)
dialectal breton 'kouchet' (asleep) << 'kousket' (brittonic celtic), v- 'kousked', welsh 'cysgu' ('cwsg')
some could say 'kouchet' comes from the same roots as french 'couché' because these modern forms are very close phonetically -
with my respect (I have tried to learn irish and gaelic but for the moment I'm in "stand by" - it is very hard but interesting...

LeBrok
26-05-12, 08:10
lebrok



There is opinion that Wends (Sorbs) lived in the Baltic even before the 5th century. The latest archaeological finds are supporting this.



Sorry, but there are no archaeological finds about Slavic existence on Baltic Sea before 5th century CE. You see, for couple of centuries now we know from archaeological digs, that around 5th century there was a big depopulation of the central Europe, and after that period another culture showed up with much simpler pottery and tools. It exactly coincides with what we know as Slavic expansion in said area. It means that around this time there was a complete cultural and population shift. Also from historic written sources, we learned, that Germanic population vacated central Europe, and Slavic tribes repopulated same areas.
Also, I have no idea where did you get the info that Sorbs ever lived in the Baltic Sea. We are quite certain that only Polabian, Pomorian, Wieletian and Obodrit Slavs lived by Baltic Sea. Sorbs were farther south by the mountains.


I was talking about Baltic. But if you are looking for Slavic finds in Ireland:

http://www.museum.ie/en/list/artefacts.aspx?article=c9f1d3b1-4474-41ef-a04e-09a6a825e141

The official opinion is that it is “Celtic” thing... but that we don’t know what it represents.
Of course in Slavic mythology this is a well known representation of Triglav.
The triglav stonehead found at Glejbjerg near Esbjerg.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~catshaman/23erils2/Image2197.JPG

Triglav / Trihead Thurs three-faced sink unearthed at the Magdalensberg (Šentlenska gora) in Carinthia, Roman period.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~catshaman/23erils2/triglav.JPG



There is a big question mark how much Triglaw and Trojan were indeed Slavic gods. The only places these deities existed among Slavs were in Polabia (coastal east Germany) and Rus. What these areas have in common is that they were with mixed Nordic populations. Russia, which has been invaded and influenced by Norse, had Trojan, and Polabians who mixed with Nordic Vikings had Triglaw. Looks like Triglaw was originally a Nordic God. In rest of Slavic tribes there was no Triglaw god. The main deity for all Slavic peoples was Perun, Twarog and Swiatowit. Find 4 faced Swiatowit in Ireland and it would be a good beginning in believing in Slavic Vikings there.



start with this. detail description of Slavic shipwrecks and comparason with Norse ones. lots more were discovered in last 15 years.

i will post more soon.

http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/...ski-MA1996.pdf (http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/Indruszewski-MA1996.pdf)


Oh please, now we are jumping to 11-12 century into Baltic coast. This research is only about shipwrecks in Baltic Coast around 1200CE. It is much to late for anonymous invasion of Ireland by Slavs, isn't it? Did Irish archaeologists find these boats around Dublin, and dated them before 10 century? We could have something relevant then.

I'm sorry again, but all your arguments are strongly stretched to prove your hypothesis of Slavic connections with Ireland. Also your doubting of Celtic influence over Ireland is simply misplaced. There is a lot of records, of written and archaeological source about their existence, culture and language. And all these records are telling us that they were much different than Slavs. The only similarities you are getting is from both languages being IE and same at one point before at least 6 thousand years ago. Your matches come from this relation and some coincidental circumstances.

Don't you think that you like this hypotheses on grounds of your place of birth and recent place you live? You are Slav born in Serbia (or around) and you live and married in Ireland. Why wouldn't you like these two places to get connected much better? Your two homes and families, and to explain the faith of your life, setting your life journey in these two places. Wouldn't it be so nice if Ireland and Serbia were connected by same people? I'm pretty sure it gives you a nice warm feeling thinking this way, but it doesn't make it true.



PS.

Triglav / Trihead Thurs three-faced sink unearthed at the Magdalensberg (Šentlenska gora) in Carinthia, Roman period.
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~catshaman/23erils2/triglav.JPG

I don't think it is true, the triglaw statue in this place. This is 2000 year old monument that gives name to the area and all I could find is one grainy, old, small picture of it, and duplicated too other websites!!!

dublin
26-05-12, 21:32
During the second part of the 11th and the first part of the 12the century the Slavic naval power was at it's peak. During that same period, Roskilde in Denmark was destroyed by the Slavs. In the second half of the 20th century archeologists discovered in Roskilde a Viking ship built entirely from oak. Considering that viking ships entirely made from oak were only built by Slavs, this ship was most probably part of the Slavic invasion fleet and was sunk during the battle. When dating and dendrochronology of the ship was done it was discovered that the ship was built in 1060 from the oak that grew near Dublin Ireland.
So here we have a Slavic ship built from oak (dub) in Dublin (oak town) in the eleventh century, which then sales to the Baltic and gets sunk during one of pagan Slavic raids of christian Denmark.

dublin
26-05-12, 21:56
lebrok


There is a big question mark how much Triglaw and Trojan were indeed Slavic gods. The only places these deities existed among Slavs were in Polabia (coastal east Germany) and Rus.

This is not true.


Triglav (Serbian Latin, Bosnian, Croatian and Slovenian: Triglav; Macedonian, Ukrainian, Russian, Bulgarian and Serbian Cyrillic: Триглав; Czech and Slovak: Trihlav; Polish: Trygław, Trzygłów) (meaning 'three headed') also sometimes called troglav is a deity in Slavic mythology.


It is generally believed that Triglav, the highest mountain in Slovenia and Troglav, highest peak of Dinara in Bosnia and Herzegovina were named after the god.


Triglav is depicted as representation of three major Slavic gods that vary from one Slavic tribe to others that serve as the representatives of the above mentioned realms. An early variation included Svarog, Perun, and Dajbog. Later, Dajbog was replaced by Svetovid or Veles. Triglav is usually described as a fusion of these gods.


Oh please, now we are jumping to 11-12 century into Baltic coast. This research is only about shipwrecks in Baltic Coast around 1200CE. It is much to late for anonymous invasion of Ireland by Slavs, isn't it? Did Irish archaeologists find these boats around Dublin, and dated them before 10 century? We could have something relevant then.


I can see that you have not actually read the book. Somewhere in the book there is a dating table and the earliest dating is 5 – 8 century. If you want to talk seriously please at least try to read relevant works on the subject.


Also your doubting of Celtic influence over Ireland is simply misplaced. There is a lot of records, of written and archaeological source about their existence, culture and language.

could you please give me some examples of Celtic language? Remember Gaels are not Celts. and tell me who celts are and how were they identified as Celts. and explain how did all the Serbian words get into modern Gaelic languages?


Don't you think that you like this hypotheses on grounds of your place of birth and recent place you live? You are Slav born in Serbia (or around) and you live and married in Ireland. Why wouldn't you like these two places to get connected much better? Your two homes and families, and to explain the faith of your life, setting your life journey in these two places. Wouldn't it be so nice if Ireland and Serbia were connected by same people? I'm pretty sure it gives you a nice warm feeling thinking this way, but it doesn't make it true.



is this the kind of argument you are resorting to?


If you are wandering about my reasons for thinking about Irish history, it is because a lot of the official history does not make any sense. For instance the reason why I started thinking about the meaning of name Dublin is that Dublin is not the Irish name for Dublin. Irish name is Baile Átha Cliath, meaning "town of the hurdled ford. This is the official Irish name of the city. Irish always say that Dublin is foreign name of a Viking settlement given to it by the Vikings themselves. Yet at the same time they tell you that Dublin is Irish dubn lynn which means black pool. first lynn is special type of pool which forms at the bottom of waterfalls and there is no waterfall in the dubliln area. they are still debating where the "pool" was. also why would Vikings give Irish name to their own settlement? It makes no sense yet no one is questioning it.


I don't think it is true, the triglaw statue in this place

you don't think it is triglav. why? is it because it is too old to be slavic and just old enough to be "Celtic" and would prove that celts and slavs could be related. by the way the statue from ireland was also dated to bronse age. maybe they are lying about it's existence aswell.
would you tell me then which other european deity has that three headed representation? the guys from irish national museum don't know so maybe you should enlighten them.


We know that all roman speakers in Balkans were/are called Vlahs, Valahs, Vlosi or Roma

this is not true. at one stage all balkan slavs were called vlahs. they never spoke latin. and roma are gypsies.

dublin
26-05-12, 22:50
zanipolo



I am afraid you are another who was taught the propaganda book by Olga lukovic-Pjanovic.
I really do not know why you are discounting the fact that serbs are not genetic slavs, but thracians from the triballi tribe.


it is a lot more complicated than that.

Yetos
26-05-12, 23:47
this is not true. at one stage all balkan slavs were called vlahs. they never spoke latin. and roma are gypsies.


well

1) it another thing Vlachs and another Wallachs

2) Roma means Romans or Roamers not gipsies
gipsy or Γυφτοι in Greek means Egyptian
yet in Roma we find many types of genes even Indian ones, but their culture seems to be ancient Balcanic mainly fitted in late Hellenistic and Roman era,
their language and systems gives many sub-nation tribes as their vocabulary,
Roma is a general name of tribes nations like
a) τσιγγανοι-cinquari-gitan
b) ρογγαροι ruegari that they are famous dancers
c) παλκο palkoni that they dance the bear
d) γυπτοι gyptian wich work mainly in fields
and many other smallers


now to understand better

a) VLACHS

Vlachs are mainly the old Latin-Roman speakers of Balkans and some of Romanian origin
they are also divided in tribes according their origin
their general name is Aromani and they are not considered as Nationality but as local since their cultures are the same with local people meaning that they exist centuries in balkans and have common history,
their difference is that they speak Latin which according their area is different and even among them there many differences, they are considered local or Romans that lived 2 000 years at least in Balkans

Wallachs or Vallachs are the one from Wallachia

there no Slav Vlachs, but Vlachs exist in South Slavic countries
Vlachs comes from Villaches the one who lived and worked in Roman Villas and not the one who are Slavs or Greeks or Albanians or Romanians

Vlachs culture is always connected with the rest of local people but they share a latin vocabulary which even in written is following the local alphabet and not Latin,


b) ROMA

Roma is a general name for many tribes and cultures,
a good example is that Roma of Romania and st Gregory their primary Saint-Helper have nothing to do with the Roma of Greece which saint is Santa Barbara and the Egyptianoids who's saint is Santa Katerina

Roma is either ancient IE word meaning roamer, either from Byzantine empire that means Roman citizen (Nova Roma)

among Roma there are Laws never written and some that reminds Hellenistic laws, and one Roma may not understand another according their origin
a good example is that Palko Roma never dance, but they dance the Bear and play so other people to dance,
while Rueggari dance all day in Streets and Festivals (ruega in their language is the street, the road)
ROma vocabulary show origin of Latin India Egypt Turks and even Huns!!! except the state-country that they exist today, like Greece Bulgaria Albania Serbia etc

So any connection of Roma and Vlachs with South Slavic people I believe is out of discuss

zanipolo
27-05-12, 00:04
zanipolo




it is a lot more complicated than that.

I will await your "complicated" message.

As my slovenian, croat and serbian friends have said...anyone who follows Olga's book has fallen for the slavic propoganda.

unless you are a pole or a ukraine, then the likelyhood is that you are NOT genetically a slav. Just accept this is how it is.

Keegah
27-05-12, 00:05
could you please give me some examples of Celtic language? Remember Gaels are not Celts. and tell me who celts are and how were they identified as Celts. and explain how did all the Serbian words get into modern Gaelic languages?

The Gaelic languages are one branch of the extant Celtic languages. They are indeed different than the Brythonic Celtic languages such as Welsh and Breton, but the two families are still more closely related than Gaelic is to Serbian. I don't know anything about Serbian language or culture, so I won't try to discuss that. But Gaelic (or Goidelic) being a Celtic language family is well known. For what reason do you think that the Irish were not Celts?

As for what a Celt is, that's easy. The Celts were the Iron Age-era tribes that spoke Celtic languages and bore Celtic culture. "Celtic culture" usually defined as being derived from the La Tène culture. You say that Gaels aren't Celts as if that's common knowledge, when the exact opposite is what's true.

LeBrok
28-05-12, 02:33
lebrok



This is not true.


Triglav (Serbian Latin, Bosnian, Croatian and Slovenian: Triglav; Macedonian, Ukrainian, Russian, Bulgarian and Serbian Cyrillic: Триглав; Czech and Slovak: Trihlav; Polish: Trygław, Trzygłów) (meaning 'three headed') also sometimes called troglav is a deity in Slavic mythology.


What are you proving dude, that the word was translated to other languages? What about Germanic Triglaus?
Give us archaeological evidence. I dug through the web and what I found out is that it is almost strictly west Pomeranian god.
I'm not saying that to agree with my hypothesis, cause I have none in this matter. I'm just going with evidence, with artifacts, and they point to west Pomerania, and mixed Germanic/Slavic tribes, especially Volin.





It is generally believed that Triglav, the highest mountain in Slovenia and Troglav, highest peak of Dinara in Bosnia and Herzegovina were named after the god.

If we based science on believes we would have still lived in caves. Let's use some hard data here.




Triglav is depicted as representation of three major Slavic gods that vary from one Slavic tribe to others that serve as the representatives of the above mentioned realms. An early variation included Svarog, Perun, and Dajbog. Later, Dajbog was replaced by Svetovid or Veles. Triglav is usually described as a fusion of these gods.

Again, Triglav was almost strictly west Pomeranian deity. There is no evidence, archaeological or written, that Triglav was a pan-slavic god, except Pomerania and Rus.



I can see that you have not actually read the book. Somewhere in the book there is a dating table and the earliest dating is 5 – 8 century. If you want to talk seriously please at least try to read relevant works on the subject.
Off course I didn't, no time for this, I did look it over though. If you want us to catch the relevant info paste it here and give us the link to the source.
Please don't lecture me about serious talk. You came here with fantastic claims and rewritten history in linguistic, archeology and other fields. You should know that extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs, right?



could you please give me some examples of Celtic language? Remember Gaels are not Celts. and tell me who Celts are and how were they identified as Celts. and explain how did all the Serbian words get into modern Gaelic languages?

Yes, on your commend, I will disregard 200 years of linguistic research linking Gaelic with Celtic, and believe you.



is this the kind of argument you are resorting to?
It is a good motive.





you don't think it is triglav. why? is it because it is too old to be slavic and just old enough to be "Celtic" and would prove that celts and slavs could be related.

Exactly. And yes it is some sort of Triglav, but you can't link it with Slavs.
Celts and Slavs are related, but not on timescale you are proposing. Go back at least 4000 years.



would you tell me then which other european deity has that three headed representation? the guys from irish national museum don't know so maybe you should enlighten them.
No need, you are doing much better job, lol.



this is not true. at one stage all balkan slavs were called vlahs.
Again, you are rewriting history. Although it might have been of Germanic origin, word Vlach, Vloch, Vlosi was/is used by all Slavs to describe roman speakers of Balkans, and Italians.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vlachs




and roma are gypsies

No, this is what Gypsies wants to be called. Their origin is India/Bangladesh.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_the_Romani_people

LeBrok
28-05-12, 02:53
During the second part of the 11th and the first part of the 12the century the Slavic naval power was at it's peak. During that same period, Roskilde in Denmark was destroyed by the Slavs. In the second half of the 20th century archeologists discovered in Roskilde a Viking ship built entirely from oak. Considering that viking ships entirely made from oak were only built by Slavs, this ship was most probably part of the Slavic invasion fleet and was sunk during the battle. When dating and dendrochronology of the ship was done it was discovered that the ship was built in 1060 from the oak that grew near Dublin Ireland.
So here we have a Slavic ship built from oak (dub) in Dublin (oak town) in the eleventh century, which then sales to the Baltic and gets sunk during one of pagan Slavic raids of christian Denmark.
Wow, what a stretch. Here is a history of Viking shipbuilding:
http://home.online.no/~joeolavl/viking/chronology-vikingships.htm

Oak was always preferred ship building material for viking ships, period.
There is no evidence of Slavic settlements beyond Denmark on North Sea.

Having said that, there might be a vague possibility that some of Slavic-Vikings landed in Ireland after 800-900s and started a town called Dublin. Surely if it happened it wasn't substantial enough to change language, replace Norse/Danish Vikings or make a dent in Celtic population.
Anything later than that would be noticed and written in history. Anything sooner and it falls short of Slavic expansion to the Baltic Sea.
This is highly speculative and only possible because of lack of written history of dark ages to prove otherwise.

For the shortfall of evidence to support your hypothesis, I have to conclude again that the only reasons you stick to your story (with strong voice of certainty) are your romantic feelings of brotherhood and closeness of two, dear to you, nations.

dublin
28-05-12, 11:28
yetos


there no Slav Vlachs, but Vlachs exist in South Slavic countries


During medieval time Serbs were called vlahs or vlasi by both Turkish and the Catholic sources. I don’t believe that serbs ever called themselves vlahs but I am not sure.


Vlachs comes from Villaches the one who lived and worked in Roman Villas and not the one who are Slavs or Greeks or Albanians or Romanians

All vlah areas in the Balkans today are in the mountains and highlands. People who call themselves vlahs today are well known shepards. They don’t come from villages; they are herders, migrants and were until the 20th century not even considered subjects of any particular state.


Vlachs culture is always connected with the rest of local people but they share a latin vocabulary which even in written is following the local alphabet and not Latin,


only vlahs from Homolje lowlands might fit into this category. All the other vlahs speak Serbian, like the ones from Vlasina on the border between Serbia and Bulgaria. My father was born just below the Vlasina mountain, near place called Vlasotince.
In Serbian the words vlah and vlasi was used to depict a peasant, ordinary villager and in particular herders from the mountains. There is an expression “da se vlasi ne dosete” which means “so that the ordinary people don’t realize what is going on”.

dublin
28-05-12, 11:53
zanipolo


I will await your "complicated" message.
As my slovenian, croat and serbian friends have said...anyone who follows Olga's book has fallen for the slavic propoganda.
unless you are a pole or a ukraine, then the likelyhood is that you are NOT genetically a slav. Just accept this is how it is.

Just short for now:

I don’t believe that Serbs are the same as Slavs. But I don’t believe that Serbs were slovenized either. I believe that it was the opposite, that the Slavs were Serbianized. I also believe that Serbs and Slavs were related and that Serbs were either a ruling caste of the Slavic tribal union, or the part of the Slavic nation which got separated in Europe and middle east from the rest of the Slavs in Asia by the last glacial floods. There is no other way to explain ancient written documents from Europe, middle east which can be read using Slavic languages. And this is the only way to explain all the toponyms and hydronyms all over Europe and middle east that have serb, sorb, sorab, wend, venet, vandal as their part. Or all the mentions of these people in antiquity. Or finds like the above mentioned triglav totems from 2000 years ago. Or the fact that some of the oldest European customs have only survived in the customs of Slavs.
As for olga, living in Ireland has persuaded me that: Gaels are not Celts and that the Serbs are not Gaels. But I do believe that Serbs are Celts. And more and more evidence is being unearthed that proves this.

Very complicated…
But fun to study and explore.

dublin
28-05-12, 13:36
keegah


The Gaelic languages are one branch of the extant Celtic languages.

There is no such a thing as Celtic language. The term “Celtic” languages is used for Gaelic languages because people from UK and Ireland were the first people identified as “Celtic” so the logic was their languages must be “Celtic” languages.


They are indeed different than the Brythonic Celtic languages such as Welsh and Breton, but the two families are still more closely related than Gaelic is to Serbian.


No problem with that. Gaelic languages have some Serbian words in them but Serbian is not a Gaelic language. As to how and when did these words came into Gaelic languages, this is one of the things that i am trying to discovere. Slavic vykings could be one of the posibilities.


I don't know anything about Serbian language or culture, so I won't try to discuss that. But Gaelic (or Goidelic) being a Celtic language family is well known.

As I said above, no “Celtic” language was ever found. So we could not have compared the Gaelic languages with it and concluded that Gaelic languages were similar to it and were therefore “Celtic” languages. What happened was the opposite. We decided to call today’s inhabitants of the brittish isles Celts and then we built the celtic language from the indigenous languages from the brittish isles which happen to be Gaelic languages.


For what reason do you think that the Irish were not Celts?

There a lots of reasons and one of them is that Irish themselves never call themselves Celts or Valahi.


As for what a Celt is, that's easy.


Nothing about Celts is easy.


The Celts were the Iron Age-era tribes that spoke Celtic languages and bore Celtic culture.


Here you are using circular logic. As I said above, no “Celtic” language was ever found. So we could not have compared the Gaelic languages with it and concluded that Gaelic languages were similar to it and were therefore “Celtic” languages. What happened was the opposite. We decided to call today’s inhabitants of the brittish isles Celts and then we built the celtic language from the indigenous languages from the brittish isles which happen to be Gaelic languages. And now you are using this made up language to define what Celts were. Don’t you see the problem with this?



"Celtic culture" usually defined as being derived from the La Tène culture.


There is a debate who the la tene people were. Again the objects from la tene culture did not have mark “made by Celts”. We decided to call them Celtic. Funnily enough, very little of la tene type artifacts has ever been found in brittish isles. You would expect a cultural continuation between the central Europe and the brittish isles but it does not exist. So you can not say that the Gaels are continuing the la tene culture and that because of this they are Celts.


You say that Gaels aren't Celts as if that's common knowledge, when the exact opposite is what's true.

It is not common knowledge, just commonly accepted opinion.

dublin
28-05-12, 14:40
Lebrok


What are you proving dude, that the word was translated to other languages? What about Germanic Triglaus?

Do you know anything about development of German language from Slavic languages? Here is something for you to ponder on:

http://ihjj.academia.edu/TPronk/Papers/1044050/The_etymology_of_Ljubljana_-_Laibach

triglaus is germanised triglav. like venceslaus is of venceslav, and stanislaus is from stanislav. In Slovenia they still say triglau. Triglav means three headed in Slavic languages. Triglaus means nothing in any Germanic language. In german it should be dreikopf.


west Pomerania, and mixed Germanic/Slavic tribes

there were never any mixed germanic - slavic tribes. west pomerania was slavic (vendish) country.


If we based science on believes we would have still lived in caves. Let's use some hard data here.

the reason why people believe that these mountains are attributed to god triglav, is because there is nothing else called triglav except god triglav.

so you say
Off course I didn't, no time for this, I did look it over though. If you want us to catch the relevant info paste it here and give us the link to the source.

but in the previous post you said
Oh please, now we are jumping to 11-12 century into Baltic coast. This research is only about shipwrecks in Baltic Coast around 1200CE. It is much to late for anonymous invasion of Ireland by Slavs, isn't it? Did Irish archaeologists find these boats around Dublin, and dated them before 10 century? We could have something relevant then.

how can you make such a statement about something you didn't even read? and now that you know that there were lots of slavic shipwrecks from before 10th century do you think that we have something relevant?

i asked you
could you please give me some examples of Celtic language? and you reply
Yes, on your commend, I will disregard 200 years of linguistic research linking Gaelic with Celtic, and believe you. As I said above, no “Celtic” language was ever found. So we could not have compared the Gaelic languages with it and concluded that Gaelic languages were similar to it and were therefore “Celtic” languages. What happened was the opposite. We decided to call today’s inhabitants of the brittish isles Celts and then we built the celtic language from the indigenous languages from the brittish isles which happen to be Gaelic languages. And now you are using this made up language to define what Celts were. Don’t you see the problem with this?

i said
you don't think it is triglav. why? is it because it is too old to be slavic and just old enough to be "Celtic" and would prove that celts and slavs could be related. and you answered
Exactly. And yes it is some sort of Triglav, but you can't link it with Slavs.
this is the problem. there is only one triglav and it is slavic or vendish or serbian god triglav. no one else in europe has a deity like this. this proves that slavs or serbs or vends or venets lived in europe 2000 years ago. And considering that only "Celts" lived on those teritories at that time it also proves that celts were slavs or at least serbs. and that is soooo not politically correct. and that is why you are refusing to see the obvious.

and here is an example of a slavic vyking ship from danish viking museum website. it is one of the ships mentioned in the book i asked you to read. And because you dont like reading here is the important bit:


In contrast to the Scandinavian finds of ships from the Viking Age, Puck 2 was largely assembled using small treenails and not iron rivets. On the stretches of coast where the population in Viking times and the early Middle Ages was predominantly Western Slavic, the use of treenails and moss as caulking was predominant in a form of ship-building which otherwise was very similar to that employed in Scandinavia.

the shipwrecks from ireland have treenails.

http://www.vikingeskibsmuseet.dk/en/the-sea-stallion-past-and-present/longships-magnified/the-archaeological-sources/puck-2-a-slavic-longship/

Yetos
28-05-12, 17:20
Considering that shipwrecks in Ireland are of 10+ century does not surprise me

I read the post about PUCK 2 ship,

and I think I know the answer

in 6th Century Vikings dare to run down Volga river until Crimea
They settled in Ucraine while some of them may join the Varrangian Guards
how about some Vikings kept conection with Scans or return and use that technique?

A) the time of shipwreck is 400 years after the entrance of vikings to ucraine and crimea so it is possible to have change some naval architecture customs

B) the PUCK 2 could be a prisoner ship, a ship that vikings get after a battle in east parts of Baltic

nothing proves that Puck was build by Vikings,
but how sure we are that Vikings use it?

I thing we speak about 1 kind of ship that Vikings use? or better just 1 ship ruin?

dublin
28-05-12, 17:52
yetos

please read this book

http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/...ski-MA1996.pdf (http://anthropology.tamu.edu/papers/Indruszewski-MA1996.pdf)

you can go straight to conclusion. There were lots of ships. The available written sources talk about navel battles where Slavic fleets had hundreds of ships. The earliest shipwreck is from the 6th century. (table on page 191) The Baltic slavs had many very important ports which had been mentioned in German and Danish reports. I have to mention that this book does not contain finds from last 20 years and this is the period of increased archeological activity in the area.