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zanipolo
22-06-11, 12:41
While looking into ancient writers, I found that the Romans always seperated the celts in their writings by either a gallic origin or germanic origin. While looking at the web, I came to the conclusion that germanic celts where R1b1c10 while the gallic where R1b1c8 and R1b1c9.

I also found that the celtic invasion of lombardy and friuli in Italy where R1b1c10 , this seemed odd as these invasion where from the south of France.

Note: Brittany is also R1b1c10 ( North west france )

Question is - is there a great difference between the Gallic and Germanic celts in regards to y-dna?

iapetoc
22-06-11, 13:47
the difference of Noric with Gaullish?

Taranis
22-06-11, 14:23
Zanipolo: aren't you mixing things up there?

- R1b1c10 is defined by U152, which generally seems to be generally associated with Hallstatt/La-Tene.
- R1b1c9 is defined by U106, which appears to be generally associated with the Germanic peoples, but appears to be also associated with eastern Hallstatt.


the difference of Noric with Gaullish?

From the linguistic perspective, I don't think that there was any significant difference between the Gauls and the Celtic-speaking peoples further to the east.

Greek authors use the terms "Galatoi" and "Keltoi" interchangably for both the Gauls and the eastern Celtic-speaking peoples, and sometimes refer to the same ethnic group variably as "Galatoi" and "Keltoi" in different sections of the same text.

Tacitus (Germania, XLIII) states that the Cotini (who inhabited the western Carpathians in the approximate area of modern-day Slovakia) spoke Gaulish.

St. Jerome (4th century AD) wrote in his commentary on the 'Epistle to the Galatians' that the Galatians spoke almost the same language as the Treveri of Gaul.

iapetoc
22-06-11, 15:56
No I am not mixing,

infact you give clear the differences,

So the Noric and Galatian and Gaulish could be same language dialects, correct?

Taranis
22-06-11, 16:03
No I am not mixing,

infact you give clear the differences,

So the Noric and Galatian and Gaulish could be same language dialects, correct?

Sorry, if that may have been unclear: with the "mixing up", I was refering to Zanipolo's statement about the Haplogroups, not to your comment.

But yes, Noric, Galatian and Gaulish were quite probably basically the same language, with the only differences on the dialect level or so. The problem really is quantifying these differences, which is very difficult due to the small corpus of the eastern Celtic languages: there is only relatively few Noric inscriptions (most are very short), and with Galatian, the main evidence are Galatian words and names in Greek sources.

(in addition to that, you also have the onomastic evidence from Central Europe and the Balkans in the shape of place- and tribal names that are clearly Celtic)

EDIT: What I have to add is that I personally suspect that there may have been some differences between Galatian and Gaulish, but it's difficult to tell because these might as well be the result of Greek renderings of Gaulish names.

zanipolo
23-06-11, 09:09
Zanipolo: aren't you mixing things up there?

- R1b1c10 is defined by U152, which generally seems to be generally associated with Hallstatt/La-Tene.
- R1b1c9 is defined by U106, which appears to be generally associated with the Germanic peoples, but appears to be also associated with eastern Hallstatt.


This is confusing, anyway I found what I seek in eupedia
http://www.eupedia.com/europe/benelux_france_dna_project.shtml

which does show the differences.

interesting enough is that the R1b1c8 is south french and cisalpine gaul in italy. This basically concluded that the friuli area was P66 (c8 ) while the veneti where s-28 (c10 )( same as brittany )

Since the Friuli language is still ( as of today) based on ancient southern gallic , then it makes sense they came from the lauguedoc area

....................

Does the dinaric area on map represent the mixed illyric-celtic people who migrated to gaul?

zanipolo
05-07-11, 09:07
Recent show on BBC - the history files ( see third link ) has gathered information relating to the heavy introduction of Gallic in germanic languages in the ancient times.

With Norse "mythology" further enhancing these events ( similar to greek mythology for the balkans), that the northern hemisphere was basically under only gallic or nordic influences


http://www.tribwatch.com/idun.htm




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vanir




http://www.historyfiles.co.uk/FeaturesEurope/BarbarianTribes01.htm




Notes on shipbuilding & nautical terms (http://books.google.com/books/about/Notes_on_shipbuilding_nautical_terms_of.html?id=Qy YrAAAAMAAJ)of old in the north ...by E. Magnússon


Book above deals with Vanir Veneti ships , which where used by the brittany veneti and the vistula venedi , i.e. Leather sails, hull design etc etc

Could the norse god AESIR be the aestii tribe and the VANIR god the venedi tribe?

on a curious note Vanir means to have come ( arrived) in old venetian language