Politics Historian calls not to forget that Germany owes a great debt to Greece

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Perhaps one of the greatest sins of today is how short the collective memory. While Greece is pressed in a long agony seems endless and the Eurozone conditions for the country to support their extreme austerity measures are made to believe that the situation is the worst experience helena who has lived in Europe's history. And nothing could be further from reality.

The economic historian Albrecht Ritschl, a professor at the London School of Economics, believes that Germany is ignoring most of its history and what led to what it is today. In an interview with Der Spiegel and in this article for The Guardian, Ritschl points out that Germany was even more indebted to Greece in the last century and Germany invites the country to be more understandable to the crisis in the euro if it is to meet new demands remissions of 50% was applied in the Second World War in the payment of war reparations. Remember that Germany paid off the First World War, only in October 2010.


In the interview with Der Spiegel, which also collected Business Insider, Ritschl points out that the German government's attitude is unreasonable, since the failure to make payments that Germany starred in the twentieth century, with the first World War and the Second after World War has been one of the largest in history.

Costs of War
After the First World War, the Treaty of Versailles in 1919 demanded that Germany pay reparations or compensation to the winners. There were thousands of millions of gold marks, a huge amount that the country tried to take up that suspended payments during World War II by order of the Nazi regime of Adolph Hitler.

From 1924 to 1929, the Weimar Republic and even lived in the United States borrowed the money needed to pay war reparations. This credit bubble collapsed during the economic crisis of the 30 that dropped the gold standard not only existing but also the democracy of Weimar. The money disappeared, the damage to the United States was enormous "and the consequences for the world economy was devastating," says Ritschl, who is surprised at the brevity of the Germanic collective memory.

After the Second World War the situation was almost similar. And, to avoid the mistakes of the past, the U.S., then accepted the possibility of debt relief from Germany. Thus in the Treaty of London of 1953 was reduced by half the German debt and established that the payment of interest on foreign loans shall be suspended until the reunification of Germany, which occurred on October 3, 1990. "It was a gesture that saved his life," says Ritschl, and pemitió enable their economic miracle, he says. However, since 1990, the Germans have consistently refused to address the outstanding debt with several nations. As Ritschl says "have refused to open that can of worms."

The German non-payment was "the king of the default"
In fact, it was not until last October 2010 that Germany could terminate the share of payments of the First World War to make the last payment of that debt, 92 years after the war. For Albrecht Ritschl, the German default after the First World War "has been" the king of kings "of defaults, while Greece falls short of him." Ritschl believes that if the U.S. and other countries (including Greece) have not accepted the possibility of a remission in Germany, the Germany of today not be the same we know.

The historian notes that "no one in Greece has forgotten that Germany owes its prosperity to the consideration of other nations." Thus, in his opinion the only correct solution for Greece is to allow its default. The most reassuring, he believes, is that Greece is very small compared to Europe, so they accept a remission of their debt would not be a serious problem, unless it could be a possibility of infection.

"I have advocated for a long time away and not for a second rescue plan for Greece, for the same reason." Even with the optimism of the IMF, "the possibility that Greece can pay your debt is almost impossible." The country has two options: implement further cuts in exchange for more bailout money, or make default. In his view, the first option increases the chance that Greece will be able to pay, but the Greeks will be a disaster in their standard of living is concerned. So, for the Greeks, the default seems to be the best option.

It is time that the Germans remember the promises made in 1990 when he announced that Europe would compensate in other ways. The only country at that time refused and Germany openly defied demanding compensation in the courts was Greece. Now is the time that Germany must fulfill the promise.
http://www.elblogsalmon.com/entorno...o-olvidar-que-tiene-una-gran-deuda-con-grecia
 
Thanks for posting that Carlitos, it is a shame I cannot read your link.

The nonsense and misinformation coming out of Germany (and to some extent France) is puzzling and has become tiring in the extreme. Daniel Cohn-Bendit summed it up rather nicely here
 
@ Carlitos,
It was a big mistake by the British and French to let Germany pay after WWI.
Remember WWI was in fact a clash between Austria and Serbia.
Where Serbia rose against the bad treatment they got from Austria.
After WWII Germany didn't have much.
Repeating the same mistake would have been again a disaster.
Another point is Greece has a socialist government, and there are some countries that do anything to block left wing governments.
The same happened in Spain and Portugal.

@ Antigone

Daniel Cohn Bendit is very right about the arms sold by European countries to Greece.
The Dutch already sold several frigates to Greece, some were only 10 years old! Why?
In The Netherlands there was a lot of confusion about it!
The Dutch Navy is now smaller than ever!
And that for a country that depends on sea traffic.
It is a scandal!
Greece had to borrow money for the defense of the south flank of the NATO area, and now some European vultures want to get money back with a high interest!
It's outrageous, and there is of course corruption involved.
 
This is a very tough and sensitive question here in Germany. Of course most people here agree that it was more than unlawful that Germany stole or destroyed most of the European property during WWII. And yes, young Germans are ashamed of this!
After WWII Germany suffered from bankruptcy as any other European nation, all the money Germans had stolen from other countries was busted at once. So it would not be correct to say that German wealth of today is based on investments from stolen money, but rather that German wealth of today is not justified for not having paid it's debts yet.*

I don't think that young Germans of today are willing to pay for the sins their grand or also grand-grand parents have done. On the other hand, young Greeks were not asked either when they were forced to pay for the mistakes of their authorities or for the loss of their relatives in WWII. It becomes a rather philosophical question now: Is it righteous to compensate injustice for injustice?


*At least if it comes to state property. I am not that familiar with property from banks and companies, which received sums of money from the Nazi-government. But in that case, it is rather the duty of German banks (which are run by people in good relationship with their Nazi-predecessors) to waive Greek debts than to expect today's German (non-Nazi) government to pay for them IMO.
 
This is a very tough and sensitive question here in Germany. Of course most people here agree that it was more than unlawful that Germany stole or destroyed most of the European property during WWII. And yes, young Germans are ashamed of this!
After WWII Germany suffered from bankruptcy as any other European nation, all the money Germans had stolen from other countries was busted at once. So it would not be correct to say that German wealth of today is based on investments from stolen money, but rather that German wealth of today is not justified for not having paid it's debts yet.*

I don't think that young Germans of today are willing to pay for the sins their grand or also grand-grand parents have done. On the other hand, young Greeks were not asked either when they were forced to pay for the mistakes of their authorities or for the loss of their relatives in WWII. It becomes a rather philosophical question now: Is it righteous to compensate injustice for injustice?


*At least if it comes to state property. I am not that familiar with property from banks and companies, which received sums of money from the Nazi-government. But in that case, it is rather the duty of German banks (which are run by people in good relationship with their Nazi-predecessors) to waive Greek debts than to expect today's German (non-Nazi) government to pay for them IMO.

well italians build a Hydroplant
at least germany could build something to push greek economy
2-3 hospitals, or a train expand etc.
the case is not that germany is owning some money to greece, or Greece to germany
I belive carlitos is also mentioning the damage that germany done to spain by cucumbers
it is another to owe one or 2 and settle it and another not to settle.
In fact Germany that many times never paid the owe, ppushes Greek to pay,
While an exit from euro will be disaster from Germany,
 
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Brussels recommends Greece to sacrifice their firstborn to placate the markets.

Markets Fury is unleashed on Greece and Moody's, its representative on earth, says it will not be easily appeased. Brussels therefore recommends that the country offering their first-born labor as garbage, subhuman wages and hellish conditions.

"Maybe, just maybe, this generation to sacrifice to get the pressure to release their divine markets," said an analyst from the IMF, "the ways of the market are mysterious ..."
 
*At least if it comes to state property. I am not that familiar with property from banks and companies, which received sums of money from the Nazi-government. But in that case, it is rather the duty of German banks (which are run by people in good relationship with their Nazi-predecessors) to waive Greek debts than to expect today's German (non-Nazi) government to pay for them IMO.

By them, do you mean Greece MM? I don't see how Germany is paying for Greece when Germany borrows at 1.5% and charges Greece 5% plus expects Greece to buy it's weapons. Rather Greece is paying for its own debt plus the German debt AND Germany makes a fat profit along the way. Seems to me that instead of complaining the Germans should be thanking the Greeks!

Or by them, do you mean the German government paying for the bank's mistakes? Well Germany is not alone there, it was the greed of the banks who got the world into the current mess and it is the people who are paying for it whilst the banks go on repeating the same mistakes. Welcome to capitalism, isn't it grand?
 
By them, do you mean Greece MM? I don't see how Germany is paying for Greece when Germany borrows at 1.5% and charges Greece 5% plus expects Greece to buy it's weapons. Rather Greece is paying for its own debt plus the German debt AND Germany makes a fat profit along the way. Seems to me that instead of complaining the Germans should be thanking the Greeks!

Or by them, do you mean the German government paying for the bank's mistakes? Well Germany is not alone there, it was the greed of the banks who got the world into the current mess and it is the people who are paying for it whilst the banks go on repeating the same mistakes. Welcome to capitalism, isn't it grand?

No, with 'them' I meant our grand-parents who took the spoils from Greece in WWII. Now, 66 years later, they are either dead or nearly as.
Most young Germans feel confused when all of a sudden now they are told that all the wealth they have is the result of spoils their grand-parents had taken from other countries and have to pay back, now. Most Germans have never set a foot on Greece, and studied and worked just like any other European people. Of course if every country would claim it's spoils and damages back -and imagine charges aswell- Germany would look much different than from what it looks now.

In 1990 it was the USA, the USSR, Great Britain and France which decided that all war reparations were payed off. Without having asked all the smaller countries, which were practically overlooked and forced to agree. (Of course Germany would have been really stupid to object at this point...)

The question now is how to solve this problem in a human and realistic way without creating too much conflict. I have no proof for it as I haven't done any research yet, but my feeling is that if someone profited from WWII spoils it were some of the German banks and companies, which I guess received some of these spoils and kept it as secrets. Moreover, they still have a better relationship with their Nazi-predecessors than most of the politicians in today's government. Now with debts from Greece, this would be a perfect opportunity for those banks to pay off their debts by remitting Greek debts.
The only thing I feel ashamed of my government is that it denies these facts and tries to protect those banks, which gives Germany a really bad reputation all over the world. But it seems that diplomacy has never been our strength...
 
Mzungu has good points. Germany was defeated, all the major cities and industrial centers in ruins. The winners took all the previous German war spoils too. On top of it they already paid many war reparations to winner and victims.
Now after 66 years Germany are rich and successful. What!!!??? What the hell happened!!!???


I love history and I watched many documentaries from WW2. Do you know what surprised me the most?
Camera showers American vehicles going through German city streets, just in the middle lane, because the rest of the street is filled with ruins of houses, big mountains of rubble. On these mountains of rubble you can see German civilians working. The war is over or almost over but they are already hard working rebuilding their homes. This was really amazing and showers you the character of a nation.
This was a German spirit back then, building and rebuilding. This is still the same spirit now building, investing and even helping rest of Europe, and in Mzungu example even the Africa. Amazingly they, they just did it under American occupation! Do you think it was easy?!
Germans showed that they work hard. Germans showed that they know how to invest, run very successful businesses, how to have stable political system. How to use the economic and industrial power to the maximum. It's commending and it's uplifting. The rest of us should sit back, look and learn how it's done!
Stop wining, complaining, blaming. For god sake finally learn something!

For all you smart pants, saying that you know how the world works, and you know the truth. If you know so much and you know how it works, JUST DO IT!

If Germans could pull it off under American occupation, surely free, democratic and experienced with long traditions Greece can do it too.

Here is an option two:
Attack America, Americans will come invade Greece. Next day you surrender. Now under American control you should be able to accomplish what Germans did. Maybe it's an easy way. You think it's a fluke? Look at Japan, they are under American occupation too and they are most successful country in a world too, right?

Off course I don't subscribe to this conclusion. Germany and Japan were the most vibrant countries in their regions for centuries. It shows that they can work it out under any circumstances. They are just united and hard working nations. They are not selfish and they pay taxes, they work together for a good of whole nation. They have great elite, good politicians, smart hard working people. They produce, they have strong industries, they know how things work.

I don't excuse them from all the crimes they did in the past, but I don't blame them for their success. I don't blame them for my and other countries shortcomings. I don't blame them just to wash my hands off for my debts that I can't pay, and for crises in my country. Maybe because I never pick the easy way out.
I want my country to be strong too. I will first blame myself for not knowing better, for not working harder, for not understanding how the world works.

Blaming Germany or USA, or anyone successful for shortcomings of their own country is ridicules!!!
 
By them, do you mean Greece MM? I don't see how Germany is paying for Greece when Germany borrows at 1.5% and charges Greece 5% plus expects Greece to buy it's weapons.

The interest goes up with risk taking. Whoever lends money to Germany they know they will get pay. It's easy money therefore low interest. Many banks would love to lend money to Germany. Germany have choices where to borrow money if they need to.
On the other end we have Greece in a very shaky economic situation. If someone is brave enough to lend money to Greece, will charge higher interest rate. It's a very high risk investment. Greece can go bankrupt any time.
Actually I'm surprised that someone will still give Greece a lone, because I wouldn't! Would you????!!! Be honest.
The only reason Greece gets any money right now is not because everybody likes Greeks. It's because rest of world is afraid that if Greece defaults on it's debt, it might unleash a domino effect in banking system and pull the world in a new economic instability as in 2008.

5% plus is a steal! Antigone, would you lend your own money to Greek government at even 20% a year knowing all the situation in Greece?! :shocked: You are surprised the foreign banks want 5%+. They must be crazy!!!
No wonder banking system is in trouble, lol.
 
Lebrok, with the wrong end of the stick again. I haven't expressed surprise nor dismay at anything, I was asking MM to clarify a paragraph, which he has since done and quite brilliantly.

.For all you smart pants, saying that you know how the world works, and you know the truth. If you know so much and you know how it works, JUST DO IT!!!!

I hope you can take some of your own advice.
 
No, with 'them' I meant our grand-parents who took the spoils from Greece in WWII. Now, 66 years later, they are either dead or nearly as.
Most young Germans feel confused when all of a sudden now they are told that all the wealth they have is the result of spoils their grand-parents had taken from other countries and have to pay back, now. Most Germans have never set a foot on Greece, and studied and worked just like any other European people. Of course if every country would claim it's spoils and damages back -and imagine charges aswell- Germany would look much different than from what it looks now.

In 1990 it was the USA, the USSR, Great Britain and France which decided that all war reparations were payed off. Without having asked all the smaller countries, which were practically overlooked and forced to agree. (Of course Germany would have been really stupid to object at this point...)

The question now is how to solve this problem in a human and realistic way without creating too much conflict. I have no proof for it as I haven't done any research yet, but my feeling is that if someone profited from WWII spoils it were some of the German banks and companies, which I guess received some of these spoils and kept it as secrets. Moreover, they still have a better relationship with their Nazi-predecessors than most of the politicians in today's government. Now with debts from Greece, this would be a perfect opportunity for those banks to pay off their debts by remitting Greek debts.
The only thing I feel ashamed of my government is that it denies these facts and tries to protect those banks, which gives Germany a really bad reputation all over the world. But it seems that diplomacy has never been our strength...

Thanks for the explanation MM, and I largely agree with you. IMO Germany has paid its debt, but, unfortunately, people have long memories and it will be a long time yet before the rotten eggs stop landing your way.

Although, if anyone has profited from the war I would have thought it was the Swiss, not the Germans.
 
Some? I live by my logic. My words are my actions and my actions are my voice. Unfortunately it is hard to prove this blogging online. :)
For most of people words and looks are the essence and the excitement, but nothing gets done. That's a reason behind substantial mess in our world.
 
Thanks for the explanation MM, and I largely agree with you. IMO Germany has paid its debt, but, unfortunately, people have long memories and it will be a long time yet before the rotten eggs stop landing your way.

Although, if anyone has profited from the war I would have thought it was the Swiss, not the Germans.

General Patton
he found the loot from Jews that some special forces did
it is said about 1 truck with golden teeth
3 days trucks cary the gold to US

and to mzungu, you have a big right here, many modern germans are descent people,
 
Mzungu has good points. Germany was defeated, all the major cities and industrial centers in ruins. The winners took all the previous German war spoils too. On top of it they already paid many war reparations to winner and victims.
Now after 66 years Germany are rich and successful. What!!!??? What the hell happened!!!???


I love history and I watched many documentaries from WW2. Do you know what surprised me the most?
Camera showers American vehicles going through German city streets, just in the middle lane, because the rest of the street is filled with ruins of houses, big mountains of rubble. On these mountains of rubble you can see German civilians working. The war is over or almost over but they are already hard working rebuilding their homes. This was really amazing and showers you the character of a nation.
This was a German spirit back then, building and rebuilding. This is still the same spirit now building, investing and even helping rest of Europe, and in Mzungu example even the Africa. Amazingly they, they just did it under American occupation! Do you think it was easy?!
Germans showed that they work hard. Germans showed that they know how to invest, run very successful businesses, how to have stable political system. How to use the economic and industrial power to the maximum. It's commending and it's uplifting. The rest of us should sit back, look and learn how it's done!
Stop wining, complaining, blaming. For god sake finally learn something!

For all you smart pants, saying that you know how the world works, and you know the truth. If you know so much and you know how it works, JUST DO IT!

If Germans could pull it off under American occupation, surely free, democratic and experienced with long traditions Greece can do it too.

Here is an option two:
Attack America, Americans will come invade Greece. Next day you surrender. Now under American control you should be able to accomplish what Germans did. Maybe it's an easy way. You think it's a fluke? Look at Japan, they are under American occupation too and they are most successful country in a world too, right?

Off course I don't subscribe to this conclusion. Germany and Japan were the most vibrant countries in their regions for centuries. It shows that they can work it out under any circumstances. They are just united and hard working nations. They are not selfish and they pay taxes, they work together for a good of whole nation. They have great elite, good politicians, smart hard working people. They produce, they have strong industries, they know how things work.

I don't excuse them from all the crimes they did in the past, but I don't blame them for their success. I don't blame them for my and other countries shortcomings. I don't blame them just to wash my hands off for my debts that I can't pay, and for crises in my country. Maybe because I never pick the easy way out.
I want my country to be strong too. I will first blame myself for not knowing better, for not working harder, for not understanding how the world works.

Blaming Germany or USA, or anyone successful for shortcomings of their own country is ridicules!!!


correct indeed
your theory is like vauxhall and Opel
Vauxhall drop money in poor germany created Opel and Opel Buy Vauxhall!!!!!!

and today both belong to GMC??????
just asking

I really wonder what happened to the famous old woman of Johanna Quandt
and the free Rolls Royce engines that USA sent so the Messerschmitt can fly cause they could not take off by the Quanndt engines
search the truth behind and after time
just who is today Quandt partener?
who was harald quandt?
 
Hmm ... Rolls Royce motors were British.
But The USA traded with both the USSR and Nazi Germany before they (USA) became involved in WWII.
In the same time they did business with the UK.
During the time UK was at war with Germany, hostilities were on the sea by German U boats attacking convoys, and in the air in the Battle for Britain. Only a few people know that a lot of Dutch and also Greek ships were hired by the Americans to get supplies to the UK and the Soviet Union.
And it's a fact that a lot of merchant ships were lost, and the USA, or anybody ever payed for it.
No cure, no pay! It's that simple capitalist rule.

That makes me laugh as a Dutchman when Americans boast about the "Marshall Plan".
 
Hmm ... Rolls Royce motors were British.
But The USA traded with both the USSR and Nazi Germany before they (USA) became involved in WWII.
In the same time they did business with the UK.
During the time UK was at war with Germany, hostilities were on the sea by German U boats attacking convoys, and in the air in the Battle for Britain. Only a few people know that a lot of Dutch and also Greek ships were hired by the Americans to get supplies to the UK and the Soviet Union.
And it's a fact that a lot of merchant ships were lost, and the USA, or anybody ever payed for it.
No cure, no pay! It's that simple capitalist rule.

That makes me laugh as a Dutchman when Americans boast about the "Marshall Plan".


yes the Marshall plan,
and the UNdra plan

150 000 Greek from age 18-27 should go to work in Germany to rebuild the German industry as was before,
All healthy examined by Greek and German docteurs
the Opel factory had 20% young Greeks

but they pay for the losses
example
they create a warm day with turks,
they gave 12 ships from WW2and they were ok

1 of them Ikaria ( iknow cause i slept in it when serve my military obligations)
the first half fought in Anzio Italy, sunk
the back half fought in D day Normandy
they cut the 2 ships, they united them and gave it to greek Navy,
Like the Βελος
Velos was the ship were the Philadelphia test was done

in 1974 when the cyprus case was on all the american help like tanks could not move,
I was a child and i remember the tanks in the fields unaible to move cause all were old,
given in 1968 ae repay for korean help

Greek civil war unknown number of Gold pounds were droped by english to mountains to support the communist party!!!!!!!
4000 war shoes and 1000 guns with ammunition were given to the rebels that later started the civil war
Germans after thousands of execution of innocent when they left they made an agreement with rebels,
no german soldier die, but german war ammunition guns etc will be given to them
in Greek civil war 20% of Hellas had German guns given to them so not to fight the Nazi army
 
I think that's retarded idea to ask reparations from Germany just because Greeks can not pay their debts today, time to turn the page of WWII finally, people.
 

The Marshall Plan in Spain.
 

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